United States Secretary of Agriculture Sonny Perdue recently made a lot of farmers angry. At a time when small dairy farms are going out of business at unprecedented rates (and small farms producing other crops are also struggling), Perdue made a comment that suggested the situation was par for the course. “In America, the big get bigger and the small go out,” he said. This week, host Lisa Held is joined by three guests—Brenda Cochran, dairy farmer and president of Farm Women United, Russell Diez-Canseco, president and CEO of Vital Farms, and Jordan Treakle, policy director at the National Family Farm Coalition—to discuss Perdue’s comments, what current challenges faced by America’s small farmers really look like, and what can be done to help small farms survive.