The Humane Marketing Show. A podcast for a generation of marketers who care.

In this muse episode I share some insights from my recent Morocco trip and then go on to summarize what I learned from reading two books related to memberships and other gatherings: The Membership Economy and The Art of Gathering. 

I relate everything to our own community, the Humane Marketing Circle, but I hope that by listening you'll pick up some things that help you also with your community or membership creation. 

If what you hear resonates and you'd like to join our Humane Marketing Circle, put your name on the Waiting List as we'll open our doors again in a few weeks (last time before the fall): >>http://www.humane.marketing/circle

Today's short solo-episode fits under the P of Passion.

As you know, the Passion is the first of the 7Ps of the Humane Marketing Mandala. Passion or Purpose. They go hand in hand.

We start out with that P to make sure we create a business and marketing that feels good, even long term. If we build a business just for money-making, we'll probably get bored of it or even end up hating it. So today, I'm sharing my story of the first business I created out of circumstance and what it taught me down the line once I started losing my passion for it.

In this episode, you'll learn about what to do if you lost your passion

• My first business created out of circumstance
• Looking for your why
• Questions to ask yourself to find your why
• and so much more

 

Sarah's Resources

Watch this episode on Youtube

(FREE) Sarah's One Page Marketing Plan

(FREE) Sarah Suggests Newsletter

(FREE) The Humane Business Manifesto

(FREE) Gentle Confidence Mini-Course

Marketing Like We're Human - Sarah's book

The Humane Marketing Circle

Authentic & Fair Pricing Mini-Course

Podcast Show Notes

Email Sarah at [email protected]

Thanks for listening!

 

After you listen, check out Humane Business Manifesto, an invitation to belong to a movement of people who do business the humane and gentle way and disrupt the current marketing paradigm. You can download it for free at this page. There's no opt-in. Just an instant download.

Are you enjoying the podcast?  The Humane Marketing show is listener-supported—I'd love for you to become an active supporter of the show and join the Humane Marketing Circle. You will be invited to a private monthly Q&A call with me and fellow Humane Marketers -  a safe zone to hang out with like-minded conscious entrepreneurs and help each other build our business and grow our impact.  — I'd love for you to join us! Learn more at humane.marketing/circle

Don't forget to subscribe to the show on iTunes or on Android to get notified for all my future shows and why not sign up for my weekly(ish) "Sarah Suggests Saturdays", a round-up of best practices, tools I use, books I read, podcasts, and other resources.

Raise your hand and join the Humane Business Revolution.

Warmly,

Sarah

Imperfect Transcript of the show

We use and love Descript to edit our podcast and provide this free transcript of the episode. And yes, that's an affiliate link.

Sarah: [00:00:00] [00:01:00] [00:02:00] Welcome back humane marketers. Today's short solo episode fits under the P of passion. If you're a regular here, you know that I'm organizing the conversations around the seven PS of the humane marketing. Mandalah in a, this is your first time here, a big warm welcome. Maybe you don't know what I'm talking about, but you can tell.

Your one page marketing plan with the humane marketing version of the seven P's of [email protected] forward slash one page. That's the number one. And then page it comes with seven email prompts to really [00:03:00] help you reflect on these different PS for your business and marketing. So as a, you know, the passion P is the first of the seven PS of the humane marketing Mandalah passion or Perth posts.

They kind of go hand in hand and I used them interchangeably sometimes. So we started out with that P to make sure we create a business and marketing that feels. Even long-term right. If we build a business just for the money, we'll probably get bored of it or even end up hating it down the road. And so my first business wasn't a passion business.

It was a, what I call a circumstance business back then we had just arrived in California. So I had to. Corporate job here in Switzerland, I was working at an international business school in, in marketing and other related things. And so we arrived in [00:04:00] California. I settled put the kids up, but preschool and daycare, and then eventually started out my own business.

And at the time I thought I'm going to go into being a virtual assistant. So that was the first business idea I had. But then back in the days, that was in 2006, 2007. It was like in the middle of the social media, boom, everything, Twitter was brand new. Facebook was kind of also in the starting blocks.

And so I learned all about using social media for my own business. And then I thought, wait a minute, if I can do. That launch a business for my own. I can help other entrepreneurs and small businesses with their social media as well. And I was kind of, I w I wouldn't say passionate about it, but I enjoyed doing.

And so that was what I decided I would do. And so when we moved back to [00:05:00] Switzerland in 2010, I then kind of pivoted to LinkedIn only to focus in on LinkedIn because that's where I saw a need over here in Switzerland. Some of the other social platforms weren't big yet. Like Facebook people were using it for personal need, but not on a professional side where LinkedIn, they understood.

Okay. We can use that for our business. And so, yeah, it was a circumstance business. It also really. Fit me well for about a decade, because I was able to raise our boys at the same speed. I grew my business, so it served its purpose, but damn, after these 10 years or about around that time, I really disrespected a big rule in the Santa Croce household.

And that is leave at the top of the demand. So Tony, my husband, and I often say that to each other mate, let's make sure we leave at the top of the mountain. [00:06:00] So what we mean by that is like leave or, or, or yeah, go or, or don't do it again before things turn back. And, and that's the rule. I didn't respect because slowly but surely things started turning bad.

I started to lose my passion for LinkedIn. I started to hate marketing my LinkedIn business. Well, that's actually a good thing because it led to the humane marketing revolution. But yeah, I really, I really just kind of lost passion for, for this. Not passion related business. So I yeah, it made me realize I didn't build my business around a passion or.

So I did what I always did back then. I went into the doing mode. I started looking for my why, and it really just almost drove me crazy. I remember having these [00:07:00] long conversations with my friend, Valerie and just saying, look, I think I just don't have a why. I don't know. It's I can't find it. I'm not passionate about this LinkedIn thing, but I don't know what else.

Should be my why. It felt like I needed a why so badly because everyone else had one. And of course also biggest Simon Sinek said you had to start with the why, but nothing came and it really was a source for anxiety for me. So. Nothing came until I finally surrendered and let go. And yes, I also broke down and wept on that tear.

The therapist's chair is saying that I was done with this whole marketing stuff. But that's literally when answers started coming to me, not long after that moment, I then had an epiphany that told me to reserve the gentle business revolution, domain name, and yeah. That the rest [00:08:00] is kind of history.

That's, that's when the idea of gentle marketing and then, you know, the story about humane marketing and the trademark and all of that. So literally I had to let go and say, okay, Maybe I don't have a why or doesn't matter, I'm just gonna like go of this idea of passion and purpose and in that's when it started coming to me.

So when the participant in the marketing, like we're human program, posted a comment in our Trello board this week that she was stuck with her. Why. I told her exactly that don't pressure yourself to find your passion. And instead, I kind of invited her to ask some of the following questions. So this is kind of, I'm quoting what I said to her.

What if you never worked with a client ever again, what would you do? How would you know you are enough without ever making any more. [00:09:00] Your why might not be business-related at all, but since it's you, you can bring it into business. Maybe it's environment related, animal related universe related relationships related.

What did you enjoy doing when you were a kid? If nothing comes, don't try to find the answers. They will show themselves. Just keep asking the question. So, if any of this resonates in, you're stuck with your why as well. I really just highly recommend you let it go and just surrender. The more you hate marketing, the more I suspect there's something wrong at the core either you're no longer passionate about your business or you've been following the wrong marketing and device, because if you're really passionate about your business and marketing, From within bringing all of you yourself to your marketing, it really should [00:10:00] just flow.

And if it doesn't, I suspect you're still doing things that are not aligned with who you are and, or maybe also your whole offering is no longer aligned with who you really are. That often happens when people are told that they have to choose a niche and end up choosing something that after a while, no longer works for them.

If you're stuck in any of these situations, I truly believe the marketing like where human program could help you. It's more than marketing. It's really humane business building. It's about creating the foundations for a sustainable business. So. It'll go back to enjoy communicating with your ideal clients.

You can have a look at the program. You can take it online right now. It also comes with a full year of humane marketing circle community. So a monthly call to come and ask your questions and be in community. Or you can wait for the group experience, which I'll host again this [00:11:00] August. So again, you can find out all the [email protected] forward slash pro.

I hope does has helped you and maybe, you know, of someone else who is stuck with their, why? If so, I'm not going to say, share this episode, but, but maybe give them also that permission to just surrender and let it go. Because I really think it does contribute to the anxiety and that's the opposite of what we want.

Right. A purpose. Shouldn't be. The result of more anxiety, it should be just like the result of surrendering and dressed and let it letting it come to you. So I hope this resonated with you. You find the show notes of this [email protected] for slash H M 1 3 8 on this beautiful page. You'll also find a series of free offers.

Such as my [00:12:00] Saturday newsletter, the humane business manifesto and the gentle confidence mini course, as well as my two books marketing, like we're human and selling. Like we're human. Thank you so much for listening and being part of a generation of marketers who cares for yourself, your clients and the planet.

And if you're looking for others who think like you, then why not join us in the humane marketing? Find out [email protected] forward slash circle. We are change-makers before we are marketers. Now go be the change you want to see in the world. Speak soon.

Today's conversation with Christina Frei about marketing archetype fits under the P of Partnership.

I talk to Christina about seeing marketing as a partnership with their wider community. Christina Frei is a marketing consultant, author, and creator of the Generosity Practice mindset work and the Innate Marketing Genius tools and method. She helps brilliant, mission-based entrepreneurs look smart and get hired. In between, she chases her dog around with a stuffed animal snake, meditates on a pink couch, and obsesses over the perfect cup of green tea, all in a seaside town north of Boston.

Her favorite quote: "You either walk inside your story and own it or you stand outside your story and hustle for your worthiness." - Brene Brown

In this episode, you'll learn about your marketing archetype and...

• The research behind Christina's 5 Marketing Archetypes
• What these 5 archetypes are
• My marketing archetype and what it means for me
• How to shift your mindset about marketing if you feel resistance to it
• The 'marketing brain and the client-service brain
• and so much more

Christina's Resources

 

Christina's Website

Christina's Marketing Archetype Assessment

Marketing for Humans Podcast

Connect with Christina on:

Facebook

YouTube

LinkedIn

 

Sarah's Resources

Watch this episode on Youtube

(FREE) Sarah's One Page Marketing Plan

(FREE) Sarah Suggests Newsletter

(FREE) The Humane Business Manifesto

(FREE) Gentle Confidence Mini-Course

Marketing Like We're Human - Sarah's book

The Humane Marketing Circle

Authentic & Fair Pricing Mini-Course

Podcast Show Notes

Email Sarah at [email protected]

Thanks for listening!

 

After you listen, check out Humane Business Manifesto, an invitation to belong to a movement of people who do business the humane and gentle way and disrupt the current marketing paradigm. You can download it for free at this page. There's no opt-in. Just an instant download.

Are you enjoying the podcast?  The Humane Marketing show is listener-supported—I'd love for you to become an active supporter of the show and join the Humane Marketing Circle. You will be invited to a private monthly Q&A call with me and fellow Humane Marketers -  a safe zone to hang out with like-minded conscious entrepreneurs and help each other build our business and grow our impact.  — I'd love for you to join us! Learn more at humane.marketing/circle

Don't forget to subscribe to the show on iTunes or on Android to get notified for all my future shows and why not sign up for my weekly(ish) "Sarah Suggests Saturdays", a round-up of best practices, tools I use, books I read, podcasts, and other resources.

Raise your hand and join the Humane Business Revolution.

Warmly,

Sarah

Imperfect Transcript of the show

We use and love Descript to edit our podcast and provide this free transcript of the episode. And yes, that's an affiliate link.

Sarah: [00:00:00] Hi, Christina. So good to see you speak with you for our listeners on the podcast. They won't see you, but I do, which is great. I'm so happy that we could do this interview with you. I know we had some trouble last time. We want to talk about marketing archetypes. So I think the best way is to just jump right into it.

So you came up with this framework five marketing archetypes, and I want to ask you what they are, but me do before I do. I'd love to hear how you came up with this and you know, what the research was behind it. And just kinda like why come up with five marketing architects? So tell us a little bit about you and your journey to those archetypes.

So I was in 

Christina: the thick of doing a field study where I had 40 people in five countries, testing a mindset tool. You know, that I. This will have nothing to do with marketing, but it [00:01:00] turns out that when I heard back from people, several of them were business owners. And I'll just share with you with the mindset tool is it's called the generosity practice.

It's something I developed in the early 2007. It basically puts you in a contribution mindset, right? Where you're just on fire to help people, even if you've been rejected. Even if people are being rude, you're just like, wow. I just love helping people seem like a ninja of service. It's awesome. So what I heard back from the, a lot of the business owners was, you know, okay, so this is helping me in my regular life, but as a business owner, I am much more consistent with getting my message out there.

I'm not as shy. I'm much more excited to just connect with people in general. So I'm marketing more consistently, just overall, also at the negotiating table when there's a lot of money on the team. I just sit quietly and listen, I'm not there to prove anything. I'm not there to like push for the sale. I just accurately diagnose who's across from me and then offer them what they need.

And nine times out of time, it's, it's a yes. [00:02:00] So that was a turning point for me. I realized that I could probably use this work for marketing or for business owners in some way. It didn't know how, so then I actually conducted another field study, which was. Basically coming up with a marketing plan for 40 entrepreneurs.

And I used my method, like a deeper level of it to help them focus their message and help them simplify, like just how do you even choose what you're going to do in your marketing? That's a huge decision, right? So I wanted to help them. It was one big test. And what I realized when I did the 40 plans in a row that every single person that went through my process had this beautiful, Y a Y of like, this is how I absolutely love helping humans.

And that my mind saw archetypes with that, right? Like one woman who was a real estate agent, she was this master of ceremonies. She always likes to lift the whole thing up and go [00:03:00] big and like, you know, visas, huge presence and she's magnetic. So that was her archetype and we built her messaging and her strategy around that.

Another one was more of what I call now and adventure guide somebody who's like, okay, you know, I'm an interior designer and yes, I could show you all the beautiful things, but let's get on a horseback and go have an adventure and I'll tell you what's possible. And that was her energy. So I saw her as an adventure guide.

And all these started popping up and it was just fun to like, look at marketing from a little bit more personal depth way. Like this person has a message. This person has a why they love helping people forget their expertise for a second, but they just love helping people in this particular way. And then when you have 40, you can actually look for patterns.

And I, you know, it's not a big number, but there were patterns and I found five really strong categories. And those are the categories I'm going to share with you today. Develops an assessment around it. And you know, I've been using them for [00:04:00] six years and they've held like they're sort of a foundation point for what.

Sarah: Wonderful. Yeah, because on the humane marketing podcast and just kind of in general, people who follow my work, we love anything that is like an assessment or personality quiz or anything like that. It's part of the personal power P because it helps us understand who we are so that we can then mark it from that place of who we are.

And it really sounds like that's what you have. Developed another, you know, assessment that we could refer to. Our episode, we're actually featuring it under the P of partnership, because you told me that you really help people see marketing as a partnership with their wider community. I'd love for you to explain a little bit more about that statement.

And then we go into the five archetypes. 

Christina: So. When somebody there's a few [00:05:00] different ways to approach marketing. Right? I think one of the natural ways is to say to yourself, okay, I need clients. I need to look impressive and I need to somehow stay consistent so that people will be like, oh, I want to work with that life coach.

Oh, I want to work with that therapist or whoever is going to be whoever, whatever kind of expert you are. And so that can very quickly become mechanical where you're just like churning. It's like, I just got to do this message and you're not really in it. You're just sort of pumping it out. And so, and I don't really call that being a partner to your community.

What makes you a partner to come to your wider community is when in your messaging and even in your strategy decision, the fact that you might do a podcast rather than an event series. All of that can be infused with your why, like you're showing your care through your message. I'll give you one example.

So I'm working with a promotions expert right now. She is somebody who has like [00:06:00] tens of thousands of stuff of like trinket. But like items that you can use for your clients to really stand out and, you know, there's sort of a negative spin on promotional items because a lot of times it's just a bunch of plastic going out to the world.

Right? So like, how do you, how do you create your marketing as a partner with your wider community with that kind of business? So we identified her archetype as she's this like comfy couch queen. She's like at this magnetic vibration of like, this is my world's coming visit me also. I love. You know, sitting on a couch, metaphorically or otherwise, and just like getting to the heart of it.

Right. And looking at things differently and being curious and like, she could just do that all day long. So we created a message from that we're like, okay, what do you want to say as a partner to your community? Well, I want to say, Hey I want to celebrate all the leaders in my community and at the same time, Share with you, how you can stand out with promotional items so that it's not one big [00:07:00] advertisement.

It's like a really helpful, like I'm going to feature leaders while I'm also educating you about the promotional items. So that's her being that comfy couch queen. And then the way she's doing that is a podcast. And it's this kind of community celebration podcast with a little bit of education open in there that all flows from her.

Why. And so every single facet of her marketing now shows that, oh my gosh, like she just cares about us. Anyone who listens to it, anyone she gives the link to like, oh, are you struggling with this? Let me help you. I have like a podcast for, I mean, you probably do this all the time, Sarah. Cause you do very specific topics.

So I just want to show that like, you can take your why and weave it in to every single thing. And then anytime you're touching out to your community, they feel your. It just needs to start from the beginning. 

Sarah: Yeah. I love that. I love this. How you explain the partnership piece because it is, it's kind of like this word.

We're like, oh, that sounds like [00:08:00] some legal agreement maybe or something very. Right. And so when you share that way, it's like, oh yeah, I do care for my clients. I do care for my community. And it's in marketing. Well, it's all about sharing that you care and yeah. Walking your talk and it really sounds like your couch queen is, is doing a great job at that.

I love that. And then of course, Bringing in my why as well. Right. 

Christina: That's right. And I just want to add something else if you, because I think it matters to your audience as far as like, I'm going to call them transformational professionals, right? Like anyone who's really good at what they do and they're changing lives.

Right. That's what I call you. So I set the bar high for people like. You know, transformational professionals that you need to change lives when you get out there, right. You need to actually make a difference to people's lives when you're marketing, not just phoning it in and having an accurate message about what you do.

It needs to be like, whoa, like [00:09:00] that's compelling. And I just want to know more and that's because you're actually changing lives right out of. Sorry to interrupt you, but I just want to add 

Sarah: no, that's great. Yeah. I feel like for, if I draw the parallel, because that's kind of what we're doing, we're both marketers and we're learning from each other.

And so if I look at the way I talk about it, this is the world view. I talk about sharing our worldview and yes, that we care about our clients, but that we also care about the bigger picture. So you know, the planet or yet, like you said, changing the world. So. So really showing that it's yes. It's about us and yes, it's about the transaction and the transformation, but it's also about the bigger picture as well.

Yeah. So share those five archetypes. So dust. All 

Christina: right, let's do it. And then we can have the conversation about yours if you want to, or mine or both. So the first one is nurture. You know, you're a [00:10:00] nurture when you absolutely love making it warm and fuzzy for everyone else. And your deep, why is making it safe for others to fix?

That is a nurture adventure guides are the people. And again, I love starting with the dead giveaway. Dead giveaway for adventure guys is you're kind of impatient for people to just go for it already. And so your deep, why is you want to, you see what's possible for other people? They're big goals.

And you empower them to get there by going for it yourself. So you're the one who gets people into action. Door openers are those who. Just okay. Dead giveaway here is you have 50 ideas at any given moment that could help people. There's like you have lots of perspectives and your deep, why is there are so many possibilities in perception, just perception, just in how you look at things.

So I like to call door openers a diamond mind because they just see things from so many different facets, [00:11:00] a steady presence. A dead giveaway is that you really avoid marketing because you don't like getting out there and being super charismatic. And you think that you should be, that's also a dead giveaway.

So your deep, why as a steady presence is you are sure people that they have, what it needs, what it takes to move forward. And you're the one with the resources, expertise, and people to make that happen. You're a celebrator or last category, completely different energy. Dead giveaway is if you're in a boring dry situation, you're like, let's give this some life.

This is like Jonathan van ness on queer eye. Are you with me that I don't know if you know who he is, but he's like super flamboyant anyway. So your deep, why is bringing the good life to others? You want to bring the good life to others and you do it with your own natural flair, whether it's humor fun.

Design sense, who knows? 

Sarah: Right. So kind of bringing beauty and, and yeah, just kind of like [00:12:00] a positive vibe to you. To your audience or to your marketing. Nice. I took some notes. I have them all down. Nurture door opener, steady presence. I'm missing one. Celebrate adventure. Yeah. Adventure guides. Yes. Yeah.

Yeah. Oh, that's so good. I took the quiz. Maybe I should have not taken the quiz and then just kind of guessed which one I was. But I did take your assessment. So that's an innate marketing genius forward slash assessment. So our listeners can take it as well. And. Drum roll. I'm a nurturer and a door opener.

I was actually ending up with two results, I guess, because the, 

Christina: that is common 

Sarah: and it's common. Yeah. So 

Christina: I'm going to ask you Sarah, which one seems more prominent if there is one towards one? Yeah, 

Sarah: I would definitely say the nurture is, is kind of where I [00:13:00] feel like I'm most at home. I do like the. What did you say?

The diamond? Yeah, the diamond Ryan's mind. Yeah. That resonates as well. But I do, I call myself the mama bear of the humane marketing circle. So really just image of the mama bear really resonates with me. I feel like, you know, come in, come in, I'll keep you safe and I'll host a space. And, and so that, yeah, that is definitely me, but, but then some of the other ones actually resonate as well.

Definitely not the last one to celebrate Tori kind of aspect. That's that's not me. I do have, I do feel like there's a lot of steady presences in the audience, in our listeners. You know, there are people who are like, oh, I just can't be bothered with the marketing should. And so I like what you said about it, and maybe you can repeat that.

[00:14:00] Would their role is in marketing. 

Christina: Totally. And I'm actually going to be holding a special workshop just for steady presences. For that very reason. I do want to say before I answer that I'm also a nurture with a side of door opener, so on that level and for me, I'm a nurture of great ideas in others.

That's how that all kind of comes together. Like if you came up to me after a talk or something and said, oh, I just got off. You know, new perspectives and like, I made it safe for you to go there when I give my talk and then I would just start crying because I'm like, that's my mission. Thank you. Hear you.

Yeah. Yeah. So as far as steady presence, One thing that I've noticed is incredibly powerful. Like when I watch a steady presence geek out, like really geek out about something, I have no interest in somehow. And this is just, you know one person saying it, but I've been watching this for years. Each time.

There's something riveting about watching a steady presence, go into the [00:15:00] depth of what they know and what they do. Like I watched one guy give a talk about auto and home insurance. It's something that I have no special interest in, but I just couldn't stop watching him and listening. And it was just, why am I suddenly riveted to this particular person?

And I've always been interested in that. Like, you know, let's say Sarah, you talk about, you know, purpose and marketing and all kinds of rich juicy topics. But if another person talked about it, who might have a very different why that. Then no one would be interested like that happens all the time. And so that's sort of why I feel like the architects are really helpful because it explains the intangible thing that's happened.

Hmm, behind all the messaging. Why am I reverted to you, but not riveted to this other person? Who's basically telling me a similar message, but I just don't feel anything compelling going on over there. So that's what I'm always looking for anyway. So for steady presence it is really [00:16:00] powerful for you to be a pillar.

Right. Like, we lean on you to be that steady presence. It's such a gift and you typically have the deep resources, deep expertise, deep network, and all you have to do in your marketing. I'm just going to give you a nugget right now is to go deep into one of those things and then share it with. Right. So if you're some kind of a health and wellness professional, and you're going to a program like a conference and you're learning something, then like you could just share a really juicy deep nugget or an article or whatever that shows the riches and the depth and the deliciousness of what you're learning.

And don't worry that we even understand a word of what you're just right. Like it's not that doesn't matter what matters is. You're showing us how much, you know, and that's what brings us two years like, oh my gosh, he just knows so much about our groups. This is crazy. Like, I'll never, I don't need to know about Yara group, but she certainly does.

And oh my gosh, I [00:17:00] can't wait to see her because she's just the queen of knowledge. And when you display it that way, it's very powerful. To your audience. I love saying that it's very generous to your audience. Don't worry if we keep up with you. I have an attorney who's like an HR labor law attorney.

She sends out these really long, you know, in marketing, you're supposed to keep things short, really long in-depth newsletters and they're gorgeous. And it's just like, oh my gosh, this is so helpful to understand, especially around COVID all the changing labor laws and it really educated her audience.

Like this is when you need to pick up the phone and call. And, and the, the message underneath the message is look how much she knows she's on top of it. She's like so helpful. She's a great educator. I want to work with her. So that's one thing is sharing the depth of your stuff and expertise, resources, people.

The other thing that's really compelling is if you're involved as a leader in your community, like you're on a board, you're doing a volunteer thing. Like [00:18:00] whatever you do, you're raising money. That even if it has nothing to do with what you actually do in your work share about that, the reason it is compelling for you is that you are a pillar and you're acting like one.

It just tells us we can lean on you even more than we already are. And that's why we hire you. I find 

Sarah: it so interesting that what you're talking about, I'm sure for a lot of people they're like, but that's not marketing. And that's exactly what we're trying to say, right? It's like, well, actually you need to, in your mind.

And I often find like it's a mindset thing, especially for study presences, probably it's a mindset thing because the minute you tell people to do marketing, to market their business, they get into this frozen mode and they feel like I have, I don't know how I don't have anything to say, but when you give them permission, like you just said, well, just share in depth about what it [00:19:00] is, you know, your knowledge, your expertise, then it's like, oh, I can do that.

You know, I have lots of things to share it, but it's like this mindset thing that you have to somehow switch on where you are. This is marketing. Believe me, you're doing marketing right there. 

Christina: Well, I always ask, you know, are you, do you consider yourself to be a compelling expert of what you do because when you're a compelling expert, that just means that, you know, you're standing out from the crowd you're, you're magnetizing in some way, some way, and you obviously know your stuff.

So if you feel like you are being a compelling expert, I mean, sometimes people don't want to be a compelling expert cause it's a little bit it's down the path. I think when not everyone is ready to really stand out like that, I respect that. Right. We are all on our trajectory. But if somebody wants to be that, I say, wouldn't it be fantastic to be that [00:20:00] like, who cares about.

How much you hate marketing? I work with tons of people who just like, I hate marketing and but they get past it when they realize how much. How much service they can offer and also how energizing it can be, because here's the other thing, like when you're operating from your, why it's actually energizing.

The comfy couch queen is doing her podcast and every single time she does, she's got way more energy to devote to all the rest of her work for that day. That's the kind of marketing I want people to have. 

Sarah: Yeah, no, totally. It reminds me, I think I heard you say on another podcast or somewhere you talk about the marketing brain and the client service brain.

And I think I love that and people will really get this visual. So what are they? And what's the difference between the two? 

Christina: Yeah, so marketing. Is innately expansive. Like you just want to go out and connect out with more and more people. So it's always that can get grabby and greedy and it's like, [00:21:00] oh, I have to do this app.

Or I have to do this strategy or like, I'm a marketing professional that helps people with this every single day. And I wrestle with it, like, should I be on clubhouse? Clubhouse has gotten a little quieter now, but like there's always something, you know, doing the Instagram reels or whatever. Everybody's up to pressure, pressure, pressure to just so think about like, from that mind frame, what kind of choices you're gonna.

Okay. So that's one, the client, the client service mindset is where you're really in touch with the value, the actual value that you provide your clients. So one way to tune into that is to contemplate five representative clients and just really get curious about the kind of value you provide them. And then.

Create your marketing after you've really gotten clear about that. Like, what is it they truly needed from you? Even if they might've said they wanted this over here, when you really dug in and you're like, this is actually what they need. So that's what I'm going to talk about in my marketing. [00:22:00] So to me, those mindsets are worlds apart.

Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. And yet what we often see out there is. Targeted towards the marketing brain, you know, the latest things you need to have and the latest platforms you need to be on all these marketing sheds that we're constantly yeah, kind of. Being invited to look at. And yet if we're in the service brain, we're actually much more in connection and marketing is connection.

So we're much more in connection with our ideal clients. That's so true. I want to go back to the nurture and door openers. So once I do the assessment, right, I know, okay, this is my archetype. What does that mean for me? What do I do with this information? How can. Come up with a strategy from those archetypes one or two, whatever it comes out.

Christina: Yes. So first of all, assessments are not [00:23:00] perfect. So I just want to put that in there. And one, one thing that it always invite people to do is, you know, you can always sign up to hang out with me for 30 minutes and we can really cause I muscle test people on there and I could do it with you just to double check, but I muscle test to make sure that we've landed on the right one.

That's the thing, but I mean, Anyone who's listening to this probably has a lot of exploration of their own intuition. So like intuitive for yourself now that you've heard all five types, right? Like, so that then when you take the assessment, I have created these five love letters or whatever you want to call them about like celebrating what it means to be a nurture and a door opener.

And one of those invites you to have like a. You know, what do you even call it? Like a workbook to take the nurture energy and put it into action. Like really start creating messaging out of that place. And also looking at, you know, what's a brand like for nurtures. I think it's been a long time since I put the report together, but I think I said [00:24:00] Airbnb and you know, Airbnb just made.

It's very cozy. Like it just makes everybody comfortable, whatever, like some kind of reference like that. So that's another step as far as landing on a strategy, you know, that is the work that I do with clients in my compelling expert program. It's a four-month program. I also have a, because I've been in business for six years doing.

I created like a self study course called one voice, one strategy. And that, you know, if you're a self study or not, everybody is you can just go and knock that one out. But let me just share with you how I help people determine their strategy. Like, you know, you're a nurture with a side of door opener. So from the.

I also want to know how you naturally connect with people, right? Like, are you the one that loves to get up on stage and wow. People, you know, from while the audience, are you the one that loves small format workshops or you love being on camera or, I mean, there's just like lots of different ways to connect.

And what are your business needs? Do you need to grow your [00:25:00] list? Do you need to just, you know, I have several clients. They're doing fine, but they just need a refresh, like they're at a plateau. So, you know, this is a really great, like refueler and that's true for a couple of podcasts, people that I have, like, they're doing fantastic.

They're great marketers, but it's like, they're bored. So let's give it some life. And. So business needs and your, your archetype and your, the way that you naturally connect with people. So then I'll, I'll sit down with somebody and we'll chat about it for 90 minutes and really go deep. Like let's because what inevitably happens is there's one.

Beautiful way for you to be out in public. That bubbles to the surface, like when I first started doing this, I'm like, I'm just making this up as I go along. I'm just hoping that every client, I have lands on one strategy and I just would sort of sweat and be really nervous with all my first clients, but it worked every time.

Mm, every [00:26:00] time. So maybe the most important thing I can impart is that believe that you have a really powerful core strategy, that could be the engine of everything else. That's sort of like part two of my message. It's like, you've got this. Why it's your marketing archetype, but also you have this. Like for me right now it's talks and when it's in person, nothing better than that.

Right. So totally excited for things to start opening up again. And then, you know, I would call podcast a sort of subcategory of talks. So, but for some people it's, let's do, you know, an event series and have a bunch of gatherings that are strategic and it just depends. And maybe it's time for you to write your book.

That's another. You know, and by the way, I cannot wait to read your mark, your your marketing book. Like I'm like I, because you and I are so similar in our approach and I have not written my marketing book yet. I wrote my mindset book, but not my marketing books. So I'm like, oh my gosh, I totally have to.[00:27:00] 

Sarah: Thank you. Yeah, it is really amazing. I was just going to say before you said that comment about the book and how we're similar. It's amazing. What you are talking about, I'm talking about in the, in the frame of the marketing superpower, the gentle marketing superpower, it's that kind of overlap between yes.

Your people, what you your personal preference and then the, the, the connection, where do you want to hang out? Right. And it. It really gives you the permission to do what feels good to you. I think that is the biggest takeaway from all of this to do what feels good and not to follow all the guru's latest strategy or what they say they have, you have to do.

Right. And, and, and, and, and I think that is just so. Powerful, but it's also so such a big relief. When you can say, I can just focus on one [00:28:00] thing that I'm already good at and that I can get better and better at it in that will be enough. I think there's just a sister of big relief. And 

Christina: another, another caveat to that.

Yes. It's something you're good at, but I also try to give my clients that edge. Right. Like the, the thing that's gonna push them. Right. So, you know, I worked with a life coach who she's like, well, I used to help other speakers with their things. And I'm like, honey, it's time for you to be a speaker. Like she kept saying those people are the speakers.

And I just knew. Just from, you know, working deeply with her, it's your turn. And that was you wouldn't say, oh, that's my strength. And I'm great at it, but it was her comfort edge and she knocked it out of the park. So that's, that's another thing, like, I think that keeps us interested. Right. You know, I don't wanna, I don't wanna make it sound like it's another full-time job.

This is the kind of strategy where like you give a lot of, you give a lot of love in the beginning just to [00:29:00] develop. You know, the foundation, whether it's your talk or whatever, and then it just pays dividends for years, 

Sarah: if you do it right. No, totally. Yeah. This is another thing I want to talk to you about, because I think we have that in common as well.

The bringing back the humanity to marketing. So how do you talk about it with your clients? The whole bringing back the human aspect. 

Christina: Yeah. And it's like, you have your book marketing, like we're human. My talk, my signature talk is. Marketing for humans, bringing the human back into marketing. You 

Sarah: go 

Christina: and pretty much it's w it's the conversation you and I are having right now.

I actually have it as an intro course called the three secrets to getting great clients by being you. And so the first one is know your, why. The second one is find the solid strategy. That's going to be your engine and your fuel. And then the third one, which I'll say now, cause that's kind of the missing piece is the [00:30:00] mindset piece, the the contribution mindset.

So just to be really specific about that, and I've, I've just wrote a book last year, it's called the generosity practice. I didn't think I could actually teach it on paper. It took me so long to really just sit down and knock that out. Like it was a two year process, but anyway this is about. Like okay, Sarah, if right now you were to wander around your town where you live or your beautiful city.

Cause I know where you live and you could offer every stranger the most. Just a gift that would delight you. Like I actually remember being in Lozan and there's this place there was, this is like 25 years ago. There was a place that was like a little cafe that had the rich. Almost like putting like hot to the cathedral.

I know that really have to climb up there to get it is like, I've never forgotten that it's been so many years since I had that. And I was like, [00:31:00] if I were there and I were you, if I could give that to every stranger that would delight me and probably make them happy. So if I were to ask you what would be your version of that to give to.

Sarah: Would it have to be something like tangible or in dental? 

Christina: It can be, and it has nothing to do with your real capacity to give it. It's just something in your own heart that would delight you, 

Sarah: right? Yeah. If I think about my work it would definitely be this permission piece. I feel like that's the biggest feedback I get from the book is people reading my book, say.

Thank you. Thank you for the permission to do marketing. Like it feels good to me. So it would be going around, handing out permission, slip saying you can do it however you want. And that goes beyond marketing. I think it really just goes with business. Be who you are in business. 

Christina: Yeah. So just to take that up a notch, like what color would the permission slip be?

Sarah: [00:32:00] It would be. Emerald green. 

Christina: Ooh. And if you were to put it like in a little cool envelope to make it a little more special, like maybe what would that look like? 

Sarah: I think it would be a gold envelope, like really sick paper. Probably like one of these old seals on yeah. 

Christina: We're, I'm taking this with you, Sarah is that, you know, you can go into a space of delight.

Like you can even just leave the, well, this is my mission in life and I'm here to bring permission to everyone and that's what they love from me. Like there's also a space for you to be like, oh, I get to give people like these cool gold envelopes with like the Emerald green inside, and this is going to be awesome.

So if you take that out to the outermost limits, that's the essence of the practice, like what feels good to offer to life today? And it really allows you the space to step back from your. And all of the sheds and all the expectations and just [00:33:00] decide, I would love to be an offering in this way today. And you could, there's so many ways to go at it, right?

You can do it. What we just did. You can also think of a person that you love in your life and like what you would love to offer them. You can think about like what you'd love to offer the whole wide world. And then the deepest level of the practice. Let me just quiet my mind. And this is where it just sitting for 10 minutes is really powerful.

You just sit for 10 minutes. You imagine yourself in this glorious place that makes you feel connected. And then you just wait in the unknown for like the gift, right? Like the, and my experience of this is things drop in from. I'm going to call it grace, you know, from all of life, from higher intelligence and it just drops and you're there to discern like, is this the gift or not?

Yes, no. And that, that discerning process is incredibly important. Anyway, and then you land it and a lot of times people just get tears or either you're just. Oh, my gosh, this is a different day, but [00:34:00] even just for imagining what I could give to all of life today, and then you see yourself offering it as like, oh my God, what was bothering me?

I forget, because this is so awesome. Like I got the rest of my day, like handled. So you can feel that that's, that's what I'm talking about. That's what helps you take rejection and not stop this subtitle to my book is 40 days to unstoppable. And that's for a reason because it makes you unstoppable.

You're like, I love helping people. So that's the third piece that makes everything more human is to take control of your mindset and choose one of contribution. 

Sarah: Yeah. And what did the two others again? 

Christina: No, your why? So that's the marketing archetype and then pick the solid strategy. That really is your jam.

Sarah: Wonderful. Yeah. I love that. And it, in a way it's. I love how you wrote the mindset book first, and then maybe that will lead into the, the marketing book, because I F I feel like I feel the same [00:35:00] about the marketing book. It then led to the sales book. Right? I have marketing like we're human and people ask me what.

What about selling? And so I had to give myself permission to write the selling, like we're human book first because I thought, well, I'm not a sales person who am I to write that? So, you know, writing a book is a journey and it's a transformation by itself. So I can't wait to you. Find out more about your book and then hopefully you'll write the marketing book too.

Christina: It's out there. Just said there,

Sarah: this has been amazing. Thank you so much, Christina. We'll make sure that we link to the book and your website and everything in the, in the show notes. Is there any other link you would like? Well, the, the assessment link, maybe just share that one again. So that's 

Christina: innate marketing genius.com/assessment.

That will get you there in eight. Is I N N a T E [00:36:00] innate 

Sarah: genius. I always have one last question. And that is what are you grateful for today or this week? Christina? 

Christina: I'm really thankful for a group of people today. It was 32 of them that go into the ocean with me on Wednesdays and Fridays. And it was. 39 degrees in the water this morning.

So we're just, we're there together suffering for two minutes and I, I just adore 

Sarah: them all 39. That must be like two degrees Celsius or something.

Wonderful. Yeah. Thank you so much for spending some time with me. It's been a delight. 

Christina: I appreciate being here.

Today I'm talking to Jürgen Strauss about his success in building a community with humane podcasting and networking circles. Jürgen is a transformational marketing strategist, helping businesses build visibility, professional authority and connection with their dream clients. He is passionate about helping businesses achieve exceptional results through innovation and modern human-centred marketing.

Jurgen believes marketing seems to have somewhat lost its way in business, becoming less about nurturing relationships and more about chasing the elusive dollar and a bigger slice of the pie. His vision and philosophy is simple - make your marketing human again and make it about creating your client's story, leading them on their exceptional journey with you as their guide. And he has created his unique 12 Step Transformational Marketing Blueprint as a simple, step-by-step way to do exactly that.

As a podcast host himself, Jurgen has held meaningful conversations with hundreds of outstanding entrepreneurs from all around the world gaining insight into what makes them 'tick', what 'lights them up', why they do what they do and what inspiration and value they can add to the rest of the world.

On a more personal note, Jurgen is happily married with two outstanding adult children of whom he is very proud. Jurgen is an avid photographer, and enjoys public speaking, and cycling – a passion he shares with both his "children".

In this episode, you'll learn why income follows impact and...

• The flywheel system behind Jürgen's podcasting success (500 episodes)
• Tools and tech he uses
• How Jürgen develops human relationships with his guests
• The return on investment of his podcast
• How he created a community out of his podcast guests he calls networking circles to have deeper conversations
• And so much more

Jürgen's Resources

 

Jürgen's Website

Jürgen's Free Audio Course: InnovaBuzz Podcasting Flywheel

Connect with Jürgen on:

Instagram

Twitter

Facebook

YouTube

LinkedIn

 

Sarah's Resources

Watch this episode on Youtube

(FREE) Sarah's One Page Marketing Plan

(FREE) Sarah Suggests Newsletter

(FREE) The Humane Business Manifesto

(FREE) Gentle Confidence Mini-Course

Marketing Like We're Human - Sarah's book

The Humane Marketing Circle

Authentic & Fair Pricing Mini-Course

Podcast Show Notes

Email Sarah at [email protected]

Thanks for listening!

 

After you listen, check out Humane Business Manifesto, an invitation to belong to a movement of people who do business the humane and gentle way and disrupt the current marketing paradigm. You can download it for free at this page. There's no opt-in. Just an instant download.

Are you enjoying the podcast?  The Humane Marketing show is listener-supported—I'd love for you to become an active supporter of the show and join the Humane Marketing Circle. You will be invited to a private monthly Q&A call with me and fellow Humane Marketers -  a safe zone to hang out with like-minded conscious entrepreneurs and help each other build our business and grow our impact.  — I'd love for you to join us! Learn more at humane.marketing/circle

Don't forget to subscribe to the show on iTunes or on Android to get notified for all my future shows and why not sign up for my weekly(ish) "Sarah Suggests Saturdays", a round-up of best practices, tools I use, books I read, podcasts, and other resources.

Raise your hand and join the Humane Business Revolution.

Warmly,

Sarah

Imperfect Transcript of the show

Sarah: [00:00:00] Hi, you're again. I'm so glad that we get another chance to talk to each other. I was on your podcast recently and now I have you here. I'm so delighted to have you on the humane marketing podcast. 

Jürgen: Yeah, it's great to be here.

I know. Glad that we're talking again. Sarah. 

Sarah: Wonderful. Our topic for today is podcasting as well as kind of a smaller topic after networking circles. But let's start with podcasting because that's really kind of become a big area of expertise for you. Your. Celebrating soon as of this recording are probably when it goes live, you have already celebrated 500 episodes of your own podcasts.

So, wow. Congratulations. 500 episodes. That's quite the milestone. When did you start and tell us a little bit about this journey of recording 500 [00:01:00] episodes. 

Jürgen: Yeah, it's interesting. When I wrap up my. Show with a guest. And I let them know when we're going to publish in which episode number. And now each time I say, you know, it's episode 490 something.

I think we're recording at the moment and are, I always have to hesitate there and think, wow, you know, we've come a long way. So we start. Back in August of 2014. So we've been going for over seven years. Wow. And it started off a mentor of mine, suggested start a podcast as a marketing and positioning exercise.

And I'd always been a fan of audio. Books and even way back when I was still on cassette types and CDs and, and I used to travel a lot and I used to have to commute a lot when I was in my corporate roles. And I would [00:02:00] listen in all the. Travel times or waiting at airports and so on. I would listen to audio books and I found that a really great way to absorb a lot of material, much easier and less tiring for me personally, then reading the physical book.

When podcasts started, I'd I'd really just dove into the medium, but I always imagined it as something that was, you know, a professional radio studio. You needed all this expensive setup to do a podcast. And. This mentor of mine, he was actually running his own podcast. And he had actually, because he's, his background was in video production.

So he did have a proper studio. But he said, no, no, come and have a look. What I've set up. I'll show you. You actually need as a minimum. And when he showed me that, I thought, oh, I can do all that. And I'm a techno geek from way back. So I was sort of excited to get into that. And I used to do [00:03:00] home recordings of my kids playing music onto tape recorders and so on.

So I thought, you know, this is really just a digital version of that. So I've got stuff. And immediately reached out to all the people that in my corporate career, all around the world, I had these really good relationships with, but in my small business, no longer had a professional reason to connect with them.

With the podcast I had this ready-made. List of guests immediately and that's how it kicked off. And then it just became this flywheel that was almost impossible to, well, it was impossible to stop when people introduced me to others that I should talk to on the podcast. And over time, it evolved into this medium where I had a.

One hour masterclass, sometimes one hour, sometimes 45 minutes. Recently this week we had two episodes where we got quite carried away and went for an hour and a half, but [00:04:00] a master class from an expert in their field that I get the privilege to learn from. And then of course, I get to share that with my audience.

So it's kind of a win for everybody, right? So that's been the journey. And as I said before, I knew it. I was. At episode 400 and whatever, 490 something we're recording now. And soon we'll have episode 500 and going forward and I'm still enjoying it. You know, we've been consistent over that time, started off with one episode per week.

We went to two episodes per week. We. A little while we did three episodes per week because we had so many recordings backed up that guests were waiting six months to have their episode published. And I thought that was a bit too long to let them wait. So we caught up a little bit and, and balanced bringing people on to the recording session and publishing the [00:05:00] episodes.

And, and yeah, here we are at nearly at episode five. 

Sarah: That's amazing. Yeah. It's just, wow. What a journey. There's so much in what you just shared that I want to dig deeper into. And you started with, you know, kind of the overwhelm of, you know, not knowing how this is going to work out and what kind of tools do you need?

I think that's often what we hear for someone who. Podcasting for the first time. So we'll go get into the tools and the tech and all that that we need. What I want to start with is, is what you then shared a little bit, but I want to go deeper into that. Like, what has this podcast done for you?

I would say on a business level, And on a personal level, I can tell that you're clearly passionate about it. So it's probably part heart project. But at the same time, you wouldn't be doing it if it was just for your own pleasure. So tell us a little bit more [00:06:00] about what this podcast has done for you.

Jürgen: Yeah, well, Probably after about the first 30 or so episodes that this was an amazing networking too, for me to connect me with people all around the world. And as I say, experts in their field, but that were giving me their time, their insights into their area of expertise. As a result, I was able to learn a lot of things that I could bring into my business or.

Connect with people that were experts that could help me do something in their business. So often I would, if I needed a particular service that a guest of mine had an, I developed a good relationship with them, I would turn to that guest for that particular service. And also some of my guests have become clients because.

We've built that relationship and they've said, Hey, we need [00:07:00] your help in doing something that, that you're good at. So that was kind of a very immediate benefit, but for the longer term now, and I know you want to talk about the networking events and, and things that I've also started doing this.

These guests on my podcast have kind of become a community. And I know I can reach out to most of them and get a very quick response to an answer. If I, if I do a question, if I ask questions and I'll get a very quick answer and, you know, insights or feedback on something, and also we've recently won, well, a few of the, a few of the guests we've done some work together in terms of a joint venture type opportunity.

So. Lots of different areas where it's, it's benefited second degree. I like to say. So we've started off as podcast host and podcast guests. [00:08:00] That's built a relationship and we've taken that relationship further in the sense of, Hey, there's an opportunity to either work together directly as a client and, and provide.

Relationship, or there's an opportunity to work together on a joint project. Or it's just a case of if I need some advice or also guests needing advice, reaching out to me, or I reaching out to them and asking for advice. So there's all of those things of not for me. Over the years. Of course, we've really fine tuned our entire system to produce the podcast from identifying guests, to making them feel comfortable when they come on the show to all the production, after the recording, to the promotion of the show and all of that, people have seen us do that and said, Hey, how do you [00:09:00] do all that?

So. Got all these services now and helping other people with their podcasts in various. 

Sarah: Okay. Wow. What, what strikes me as very different from your approach is that, you know, usually when you hear people talking about podcasting, it's all about growing your podcast and getting more and more listeners and getting more and more reach.

Not once. Have you heard, have I heard you say the word? Listen. So, so it's like, almost like you're focusing I won't say more because you can chime in after, but you focusing a lot of attention on the guests, which probably most people don't do so much. At least I, I haven't seen it. Like I have not felt like, oh, I'm now part of a community whenever I've been guesting on a podcast.

Not at all. I can think of it. Maybe a few examples where we [00:10:00] stay in touch. But, but it hasn't felt like, oh you know, you really matter? No, you're just like, you know, one of my guests and now move on to the next one. So I find that a really. Very different strategy and the very humane strategies that it's not, you know, just like, like a factory.

Okay. Next guest, next guest, next guest. So that's interesting, but do tell us also kind of about you know, your listeners, w what has developed out of the people listening to, to your pod? 

Jürgen: Yeah. Yeah. Well, the listeners, I mean the listeners first and foremost why we do the podcast. So, and, and we're very clear, right?

From the get, go on, who are the ideal, who are our dream audience. And, and when we work with other people to launch podcasts, that's really where we start. We actually start with themselves with the podcast host and, and their business and why they're doing it and what they hope to get out of it. And then [00:11:00] the listeners for me, Then the next level of course, is the guests, because I say that I want to, I want everybody to have an awesome experience.

I know if I do the right preparation and come with the right mindset, that I will have an awesome experience, speaking to somebody like you on your area of expertise. My guests to also have an awesome experience. And if we together have an awesome experience, then it becomes an awesome experience for my listener.

I, I'm also very protective of my listeners in that I don't take everyone who like we get lots of pitches now for guests in the early days. Of course, I was very active in bringing guests on board. I still actively bring guests on board. However, The balance now is probably 50 50. So 50% of the guests I've been introduced to, and I invite them to the show, the other 50% pitch me and asked to be on the show.

[00:12:00] And for those that send me a request to come on the show, I very carefully filter them. Are they a match for my audience? Are they a match for the kind of topic areas? Cover, which is 

Sarah: probably sorry to interrupt. It's probably the same amount of work to kind of filter them as to invite your own guests. I often find because the pitches, quite frankly, there's exceptions.

A lot of the pitches are just kind of like random. And so you have to actually do the work and figure out 

Jürgen: well yours, your certainly stood out yours was an exceptional one that immediately got my attention and respond for that. Well, no, that's because that's the style I pitched to go on podcasts as well.

And that's the style of pitch that I do. It's a personal reach out and I get on video. I show them. What they can expect the. [00:13:00] W I actually have a standard response for people who pitch me and, and it's a templated response, so I'm very anti template, but this is a templated response, but my templates are very special.

I think And, and it allows me. So if I get a pitch, I immediately it's like hitting the tennis ball back into the other side of the court, over the net. And so the other person then has to do some more work to convince me that they're a good fit. So the templated responses, thanks for your interest in coming on to our show and we're being much more selective.

Because we really want to protect our, our audience and make sure that the guest is a really good fit for the subjects we cover and for the audience. So I say that upfront, I then say, Can you please, the first step is please schedule a short call with me and I give them a calendar link. The second step is send in complete this intake form.

So I have an intake form where they're giving me a lot of background [00:14:00] information and some of those questions are why are you a good fit? And have you listen to. An episode. And w w can you give me some feedback on an episode because I've it's kind of that evolved over time. I didn't use to ask that, but I've learned that not everybody listens to the show before they actually come on the show, which I thought was a given.

So I kind of put them through that filter. And then I also send them some videos of that I recorded a little while ago about what excites me. Podcast pitch. So I talk about, you know, if somebody sends me a personalized video that gets me excited, I'm immediately attracted to that person. And I immediately will we'll then look at their background and probably reach back out to them to have a conversation.

So I turn it around very quickly, like that, to all the pictures I get. And then. The next step of course is then if I have all the information back from the person and [00:15:00] we have that short call, then I can determine very quickly if they're a fit for my audience, if they're a fit for the show and the topics we cover.

And also the short call has the benefit of we get to know one another. So when, when we then do get on the show itself, we've already had a conversation. We already know one another, we we've already started a bit of a life. 

Sarah: Yeah, exactly. That that was a few people do it, but not everybody has that kind of first, you know, 15 minute calls.

So that definitely helps you filter. Probably even though I can imagine for me as an introvert, it would be. Hard to say, you know, actually we're not a good fit. So I'm curious how, how do you do that? But yeah, that, 

Jürgen: that was a bit of a challenge at first. If it's really obvious from. The pitch and if the person like some of the pitchers, and I'm sure you've seen these, if [00:16:00] people, when people pitch to you, they say, hi, I'm Juergen and I've done this.

And I do that. And I'm an expert in these things. So it's all about me instead of the value that I might be able to bring to you. Audience or to your podcast. So if I get a pitch like that, I'm already very wary. And if then if the topic itself is, it's not really clear to me, it's a good fit. I usually just send back a polite decline.

Oh, 

Sarah: that's easy. Via email. But what I'm talking about is when you talk to them. Yeah, I 

Jürgen: have been, and I made a mistake recently on something and I So who this was because the podcast has been published. And I think we actually made a pretty good show out of it, but it turns out it wasn't all that good of fit.

I didn't think it was a good fit to start with, but I saw [00:17:00] some things that perhaps we could explore. So the person came on the short call and I actually said right at the beginning, I'm not sure. Your topic is a good fit for my audience in my show. And, but they'd pitched me. And so I said, but you know, maybe we can explore some areas.

So then we came up with some areas to explore and are around sales and are around lessons that we could take from this business, which was way different to anything else I've had. But the lessons we could take from that into our area. I didn't, I probably then on the show, I probably didn't, wasn't strict enough to keep the person on track for the lessons.

And I. Yeah, they took the opportunity to talk a lot more about their business. Then, then I really wanted because the business that they were doing was not really relevant to my audience as [00:18:00] yeah. That one, that one got that one got through, but I have said to people. Know, and I just say, look, this is not nothing personal.

You're just not a fit. You know, I'm very clear on who my audience is. I'm very clear on the type of content that I want to put in front of them. I want to talk about. And that's just me, that's just what I've chosen to do. And I don't think this is going to work if, if it's a good conversation and you know, Connected with so many people that have podcasts.

If I think of somebody who might be a good fit, I'll mention some podcasts to them, or I'll certainly point them to pod match and to match Mica the podcast services. And I say to them, Hey, if you're looking to get on other shows, This might be a suggestion. If I can think of one that that's a good fit.

And if you'd like an introduction, I'm happy to make that. Or alternatively, go and look at these websites because [00:19:00] that's where podcasts are looking for guests actually hang out and you can pitch. 

Sarah: Let's talk a little bit about those tools and the tech and the systems, all of that stuff, because with two or sometimes even three episodes per week, I'm sure you by now and.

I say, you know, it wasn't always like that, but by now you have like the whole system, probably not completely automatized, but a lot of it is just kind of in the flow. Right. So you really just get to do what you love doing, which is the interviews. So tell us a little bit about, you know, the tools you use and the tech.

I think you have a team as well. So tell us a bit 

Jürgen: about that. Yeah. So I've got a team that edit the show. Do all the promotional material produce all the promotional material that do the invitations upfront from the guests. So I usually [00:20:00] connect with people that might be possible guests. And then if somebody pitches me, it usually comes into my email.

So I'll respond to those. But I will also also copy in my, my team and my assistant, who does the scheduling and she will then sort the people she'll do some background research for me and invite the people and do all the scheduling with the scheduling. We've got a calendar system set up that once, once they're booked in, I think it's the same one you use.

Once they booked in that will. The appointment in my calendar together with the link to the platform that we record on it, we'll put that into the guests calendar. It's set up to send out reminders a week before, a day before, and then an hour before, just 

Sarah: want to chime in and say what I'm using is acuity scheduling.

And I think that's what you're using. There's also [00:21:00] Calendly 

Jürgen: that's right. This is quite a few of those around, so yeah. That's that's really important because it, it helps a lot in terms. So we actually, my assistant actually suggests three times, so we don't let them book directly at time because that got very out of hand.

We did do that for a little while, but that got very out of hand. 'cause I, I found that often I'd do five recordings in a day and that's just too much. I can do three, but at the end of three, I'm I'm exhausted. It's as an introvert, that takes a lot of energy. The, yeah, so the booking, so for the pre.

Get to know your calls that I allow the guests to book. So I've got in acuity, I've got times set up where I'll do those. Usually it's one or two days and specific time window that covers international [00:22:00] time zones as well. So that that's a bit of a challenge as well because of the time differences, but that's set up.

So. Just send out that link and the guests can pull at their convenience and that just links to my calendar. So I can only see times when I'm free within those windows that I've set. So that's the calendar part. We, we use squad cast to record. Conversations, the squad cast allows you to record locally at each site, and that produces the highest quality audio.

If you do that. And it also records and uploads dynamically so that if we get cut off because of an internet issue, for example, in the recording, The conversation up to that stage is recorded and it's uploaded. So we, that just means we have to edit together the various bits. If we reconnect, then I've got various follow-up [00:23:00] systems.

So when I complete a recording, I will send an email. I'll personally send an email. Thank you. And the way I do that, now I have a template which basically. Outlines all the steps that happen from there. And in that template, I add a recorded message. That's personalized. And I added a I had the times when we're going to publish that episode, I will also.

Send out some social media posts immediately after the episode saying, Hey, just had a fantastic conversation with Sarah. And we talked about these things. Look out for the episode to publish in December or whenever then after that my team then takes over the. Produce the, what I edit the audio they produce shownotes they produce social media posts from that I upload the completed or the [00:24:00] edited thing, or actually that prompt me to do an intro and outro recording.

Then they edit it all together, upload that to the hosting platform and we use captivate if. And then yeah, then I schedule all the social media postings and they actually send an email on my behalf that tells the guests and also the people who introduced me to that guest that their episode is published.

I follow up with a personalized video message usually about a week after the recording. Just. Kind of keep the relationship going. And then once the episode's published, I make sure that I'm on particularly LinkedIn and commenting on the posts and commenting on other people, interacting on those posts.

So engaging in that conversation. 

Sarah: Wow. That's really quite the production 

Jürgen: and there's [00:25:00] probably a few bits and pieces that. 

Sarah: How, how long would you say how much time do you personally spend on each episode? 

Jürgen: Yeah, that's a great question. I actually looked at that recently because one of the jaw joint venture initiatives that I mentioned earlier, we were talking about sharing how you can get the time to produce a podcast down to.

Two to four hours per episode. I think that's about what I personally spend. So I might I do listen to other podcasts that my guest has been on. And I typically do that while I'm doing something else. So it might be while I'm commuting, it might be while I'm out walking. So I don't necessarily count that time.

As, as as work I do for that podcast, then I. Spend a little bit of time [00:26:00] looking at all the material that my team's put together, background research, and thinking about some of the topics that I want to cover. And that typically I'll spend about an hour doing that before the episode. And I've learnt over time that.

I don't need in the early days, I would probably spend about four hours and I would script out the episode very carefully. So I'd have his question one. Okay. What, what might Sarah say to question one while she might say this? She might say that well, okay. If she says this, I'll go here. That'll be questioned too.

She says this. That'll be questioned too. And I have have this very complex script and of course, most guests didn't say that, or I said something completely different and it threw me right off and then I'd come back in. Well, I've got to try and get this question in. And some of those episodes were really stilted because it was kind of like I was trying to get back on, on this track that I [00:27:00] laid out.

And what I've learnt over the years. And I discovered this, even some of my very early episodes that I had a relationship with the person. Cause I knew them from my corporate days and I thought, wow, they have really good episodes because it was just a natural conversation between people that knew one another.

And I thought that's what I've got to get to. Even with people that I don't know that well, and. I just take the approach of, okay, let's go five to seven bullet points of things that I touch on. And I was explaining this to a guest this week that we did the recording. I had actually eight bullet points for her and we didn't touch on one of them and we had an hour and a half conversation.

So it's really about when I get onto that. As long as I'm, I've read up on the person, I've got some idea about their background. I've got some idea about their expertise. I then trust myself to have a conversation that's interesting and [00:28:00] I'll start off with some things. And depending on, I just have to listen really carefully.

And depending on what I say, I will respond to what they say, and we could go off in any direction for me. It's just like, if I meet somebody. And at at some event, whatever it might be, I meet somebody there's no preparation goes into that. It might be a per chance meeting, but if we build a bit of a bond and we find some common interest that could certainly turn into a an hour conversation without any preparation.

So that's kind of how I approach it. Now, as I say, I probably do about an hour preparation, not counting. Time. I listened to podcasts. Usually it's done while I'm doing something else. And then after the show, there might be another hour of things I do to wrap up. And then after that, you know, there's five minutes here and there to send a [00:29:00] video.

Thank you. Later on. And we have, of course reminder system set up that reminds. Yeah. Now it might be time to touch base with Sarah again, or it's three months since you've connected or touch base with, with this particular guests or the. I just spent five minutes to maybe have a look at their LinkedIn, LinkedIn posts again, to see what what's happening in their world.

Hmm. 

Sarah: I love that. Follow-up as well. I think that that really feels like that's a big focus for you, the, the, the human relationship and, and I, I love that piece. So it's kind of like, yes, we use system. But we use the systems in order to really deepen the human relationships. Are you exactly that's? 

Jürgen: Yeah, that's my whole philosophy around marketing is exactly that, that the systems are there to take care of the mundane and free up [00:30:00] people's time so that we can build those relationships.

Yeah to any of those relationships. The 

Sarah: other thing I would just also highlight is is that, you know, maybe for some listeners is they're like, oh my God, you know, this is two to four hours of time investment for each episode, plus you have a team. So. And, you know, how, how much time would that mean for, for just a single episode.

So that's definitely something to think about. And yes, a podcast is a lot of work and and the other thing that you really show is it needs consistency. You know, how many podcasts do we see that start? Didn't have 20 episodes and then, and then they'd disappear. Could be a thing that you do for like a special event.

I have a friend of mine who does a podcast right now because he's launching a book. And so from the get-go it's like, well, I do this about the book and it's part of that book launch. So, so [00:31:00] that's fine. But if you're starting a podcast and then, you know, just kind of. Wayne's out after 15 episodes then that's probably not the goal.

Yeah. The other thing I wanted to go ahead. 

Jürgen: Yeah. Sorry. It kinda comes back to what, what the purpose of the podcast is. And, and the book launch is a great example because I think a podcast is a really great way to enhance a book launch and. Help grow book sales, particularly at the beginning. And one of the beauties of that is that in terms of content, the book author already has the content, right.

They've written the book, so you can reuse that content. So all the research that I do is about understanding. The guests that I'm bringing on, understanding their business, what drives them and getting to know them a little bit. So if you're doing a solo podcast, it's about preparing the content [00:32:00] that you're going to present.

And if you've written a book, you've got the content you've done that work. So really the podcast itself is, is. The preparation part is already done in writing the book. So it's really more about, okay, how do I repurpose that? And then of course, afterwards, there's quite a bit of work in production and promotion of the podcast.

The good news for that is, as you said, there's a lot of podcasts out there that kind of fade out after I think seven to 12 or 13 episodes is the pod fade period where people. Get frustrated because they're not getting immediate results from it. And also they starting to realize, Hey, this is actually quite a bit of work and yeah.

And, but the good news is if you're, if podcasting is for you. And you really want to do it and you're consistent and you stay at it. You can build systems around it [00:33:00] to make it a lot easier over time and you will stand out because there's, I think there's about. Melian active podcasts around now at the moment, whereas there's 600 billion or more bloke blogs out there.

And yet people put a lot of effort into writing blogs, thinking that a blog is going to. Mike them stand out in the world. Whereas if it's more, it's so 

Sarah: different to hear you then to just read you all the time. Right. So that relationship really develops in a different way. Two things I want to say.

And then I want to talk about those networking circles, but the first thing is I think w here we're a lot about giving ourselves permission as well to do it our way. So just because people listen to you who have, you know, in seven years have developed these systems and I are now really proficient at it.

No reason to start out [00:34:00] small and say, well, you know, let me start with one episode every two weeks. I think what's, what's more important is the consistency than the actual quantity. So I want to give our listeners permission to say, Yeah, I just want to start building these relationships and maybe the purpose is not so much to get, you know, thousands of listeners, but to have a reason to people, to get people, to come to you and talk about a topic.

So that's 

Jürgen: absolutely, and permission. The most important thing is who, who is the audience you want to get in front of? Who's the audience that you have a message for that you can make a difference in their world. And if you get in front of that audience and then have that consistency that you mentioned, Sarah.

And Mike, the expectation clear up front. So you could start off a podcast and say, this is going to be monthly. We're going to publish [00:35:00] on this particular day of every month. And here's what each episode will contain. So look out for it and tell people how they can follow the podcast or subscribe to it.

And then. That's and then you just organically grow your audience. From there. You encourage people to leave reviews. You encourage people to share it with other like-minded people that it could help and consistency and adding value is, is the. 

Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. And also the letting go maybe of this idea to have the perfect show at the very beginning.

So I had to smile when you said how you prepared your questions, because that's another thing that comes with experience to not make it sound like an interview. So, you know, kind of getting just into this flow like you now, I only have a couple of bullet points that I know that. Want to address.

And then every now and then my eyes go down because I have [00:36:00] to look, oh, where are we heading that? But other than that, it really is just kind of this, this flow, but it wasn't always like that. I, you know, I have, we've made a, 

Jürgen: we've made a real conscious decision to avoid the use of the word interview. I say, in fact, all the documentation, I think I've gotten rid of all of it.

Although, you know, there were a few places where it kind of stayed. Was there, but I think we've gotten rid of it in all of our documentation, all of the emails that we send out in our sequences to remind people when they come on all of the platforms that we use, where, you know, the reminders go out through acuity and that everything has been changed to our conversation will be recorded.

So I talk about it as a conversation and to me, Changing my mindset around this is just a conversation and yes, of course. I'm going to ask questions and yes, of course. I'm going to follow up questions with, oh, that's interesting. Tell me more about that or [00:37:00] that's interesting. Why do you say that? Those kinds of things, but it's not a scripted process.

It's, it's a conversation. 

Sarah: I think. One of the things that I noticed when I listened to podcasts that are probably in the beginning stages is when they say you know, next question, because actually that's not how you talk in a conversation. You don't say I'm going to ask you the next question. So maybe that's something.

Kind of also take out of your vocabulary. You don't need to say, you know, let me ask, well, you can say, let me ask you this or something like that, but, but it doesn't have to be announced as the next question. 

Jürgen: That's right. Well, there's a, there's a real funny one, which I know I've had. Quite a few times where people say, can I ask you a question?

And my normal response is, well, you just did. [00:38:00] 

Sarah: That's true. All right. Well, let's use these last five minutes to talk about the, the networking circles. So that's where you take the relationship even to a further level with your guests. Tell us about that. 

Jürgen: Yeah, that's right. Well, well, my friend Qur'an ninja one.

Runs these networking dinners. And so he gets together a group of like-minded people, a small group in a dinner setting and facilitates conversations that go deeper than the traditional networking event where. You meet somebody and, oh, hello, I'm Juergen. What do you do? And they say, what do you do? And you exchange business cards and then you get home and you throw out all the business cards into the rubbish bin.

Cause you, cause none of, none of those people are the businesses that they're in. That's not what you're looking for right then and there. So it's kind of a bit of a waste of time. The, [00:39:00] his. Facilitated meetings were actually much deeper conversations about sort of meaningful things. So I took this when, when we when we were in the early stage of the, of the pandemic and there were lockdowns and everybody was getting on zoom and I thought, how can we make these zoom meetings more interesting?

And it coincides. With the time when we had a episode, episode two 50, I think it might've been where I decided what I'm going to just bring people together on zoom and bring former guests together on zoom to celebrate 250 episodes. And I'll kind of run this event. Like those networking dinners that, that Qur'an runs and.

So I did that and I used the zoom breakout rooms. So I kind of set the stage top people. We're going to have some deep and meaningful [00:40:00] conversations and it was a safe space. And if you're not comfortable going deep and. Be prepared to be vulnerable, then now's a good time to leave. And everybody got really excited and said, no, no, we're here.

We're on board. So I start off with breakout rooms of two people. And I asked a simple question, like, what's got you excited right now. And people have two minutes to say that now, depending on how. Much detailed. I want to go into they'll share something. And then when they come back into the main room, I then asked for volunteers to share what they've learnt about others.

And it kind of creates a real dynamic atmosphere and everybody feels part of this big you know, feels this connection. And then we. Send them off to a second breakout of one-to-one. And I usually ask a deeper question there of what's the [00:41:00] limit. Something like what's a limiting belief that you've ever come.

And how did you overcome it? Is one that I've used. And so that requires people to get a little bit vulnerable and then. In, we did three more rounds and I put people in groups of three or four at that point and ask some more questions like that and then bring people back into the room. And I have music going when they come back into the room and I'm usually there dancing to the music.

So it's kind of a fun party atmosphere. And I thought I did that because. At the trigger point was this celebration of over milestone podcast event. And then everybody had so much fun people and I encourage people then afterwards to say, okay, you've learned something about other people. Connect with one another outside this event and continue the conversations.

And out of that people have gone on podcasts. Podcast [00:42:00] hosts have met potential guests. And so they've, those people have come on as a guest in their podcasts that I didn't know, one another beforehand. I know that there was. People that actually went on and did business with one and other out of that very first event.

So it kind of starts off with having meaningful conversations between people. Trigger some relationships. And of course not everybody, not every conversation led to an ongoing relationship, but those where people felt, Hey, there's a connection here. They've went on to build that relationship. And I know some of the people that were on that early event are now running those events themselves as well.

And I've been a participant in those events too. So it's a lot of fun being a participant as well, but it's kind of an interesting way. To use some of the technology that's available in zoom to help people just break through that, or what do you do and give us your business [00:43:00] card to actually get to know one another at a human.

Sarah: Yeah, I love that so much. And, and I was just on a, on a conference recently last week where we had that kind of setup and the idea was to meet each other in small breakout rooms and not use our job titles to say, tell the other person who we are. And it was a really difficult concept for people to understand.

And so I just put in the chat. Networking like we're human cause that's really, the idea is like, well, what if you didn't have a job? You know what, if you didn't have a job title, who are you as a human being? And so a lot of that we also do in the humane marketing circle. It's just like, you know, we show up as human beings, but it's true that we have.

Kind of been brainwashed to these networking events. And so we always feel like we have to put on a show. And so I love what you're doing also [00:44:00] with this concept of bringing the guests together. I think that is just so, so smart. And, and, and, and I think it helps you. Kind of slow down the process, you know really just changing the focus on the relationships and not just, like I said before this factory of, of guests and one after the other.

So. Beautiful. I, yeah. And, and I just received your email about the 500 networking invitation. So I can't wait. Yeah. I'm not 

Jürgen: sure that's going to be a networking one. I haven't actually worked out exactly what we're going to do there, but the idea for that is that I have a conversation with a group of people on episode 500 and, and I've decided it's probably going to be.

Three or four parts. So three or four episode, five hundreds because of the number of people that, that I probably want to [00:45:00] bring on. And I I just, I, I will need to plan how to run this with perhaps eight to 10 people together on a podcast. Yeah. Like a panel. And I, when I say. Do standard questions. I do actually have five questions that I ask every guest at the end of our conversation, or sort of as we wrap up the conversation, there's a, what I call the buzz, which is an innovation round.

And there's five questions that I ask every guest. And I'm thinking of maybe taking a couple of those questions and going deeper with each guest in kind of a panel discussion. 

Sarah: Wonderful. Can't wait. Well, we're getting to that part of the show here too. And, and, and I always ask myself kind of my guests, a personal question, but before that, I would love for you to tell people where they can find you and find out more about your work and your podcast and all of that.

Good. 

Jürgen: Yeah. [00:46:00] Well, if you go to my website, Nova biz.com dot a U R I N N O V a B I Z or Z for the American speaking people. The you'll find the podcast there as well as the other, the other information about our business and on the pages, you'll see a little. When normally is a chat bot, but it's actually me on video with a welcome message.

And you can respond to me with your own video or an audio message, or just a normal text message. So the idea of that is it's not a chat bot robot. It's me inviting a conversation. So I'd love you to let me know that you heard me on Sara's podcast. What you liked about it and also any feedback? Yeah.

Sarah: Wonderful. Yeah. [00:47:00] Like that invitation. Well, this has been delightful. Thank you so much for taking the time. My last question and this time, it is a question is what are you grateful for today, your again, or, or this week? 

Jürgen: Well, there's lots of things that I'm grateful for them and I'm healthy. I've.

We are coming out of the extended lockdowns here in Australia from COVID. So recently. I was able to visit my 93 year old father and celebrate his birthday, his 93rd birthday. And I hadn't seen him in person for six months. I was also able to visit my daughter in Melbourne. So you know, we we'd had locked downs previously.

We couldn't go that far. So I was able to visit her and go out bike riding with her, which we love to do together. So I'm grateful for that. I'm grateful for my wonderful wife here. And of course we were together all through the lockdown. So that was good. And yeah, and just all these wonderful [00:48:00] guests that I have on my podcast that, and all these connections and opportunities to come on.

Other people's podcasts like this. 

Sarah: Thank you so much. I love talking to you and we'll do it again, even without a podcast interview. Thank you so much. You're going to take care. 

Jürgen: Thanks Sarah.

Today's conversation with Adam Kawalec on Income follows Impact fits under the P of Pricing of the Humane Marketing Mandala.

Adam is a former top-level manager turned life & business coach, co-founder of a unique and internationally recognized personal trainer school, who has built a thriving business based on referrals only. With over 16 yrs of experience in change management, leadership and mental training Adam helps heart-centered coaches and consultants get paid doing what they love without having to sacrifice their life; work; or bank balance.

Adam is also a founding member of the Humane Marketing Circle and I got to reference his work in the Selling Like We Are Human Book!

Adam's favorite quote:
"If you could only love enough, you would be the most powerful person in the world - Emmet Fox

In this episode, you'll learn why income follows impact and...

• How can we move the pay line, give before we get?
• How do we avoid over-giving and burnout?
• Is money the only form of income? How else can we define success?
• What do we do with our ambition, our ego?

Adam's Resources

 

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For being a listener get access to the top 3 expert interviews from the Authentic Business & Marketing Summit hosted by Adam

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Marketing Like We're Human - Sarah's book

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Email Sarah at [email protected]

Thanks for listening!

 

After you listen, check out Humane Business Manifesto, an invitation to belong to a movement of people who do business the humane and gentle way and disrupt the current marketing paradigm. You can download it for free at this page. There's no opt-in. Just an instant download.

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Sarah

Imperfect Transcript of the show

Sarah: [00:00:00] [00:01:00] [00:02:00] [00:03:00] [00:04:00] [00:05:00] [00:06:00] [00:07:00] Hi, Adam, how are you today? 

Adam: I am great. Thank you so much for, for having me here today. 

Sarah: Yeah, I w we've been planning this for, we can say over a year, because it only has been over the span of a year, so I'm so excited to have you here with us today and talk about yeah. And intriguing topic. So you so graciously, let me share.

Your concept of, you know, moving the pay line or you'll have to explain whether they are different concepts. This idea of Income follows impact or moving the pay line, whether they're the same or different [00:08:00] ones. But yeah, we do, we did share them, include them in the selling like we're human book.

And so I'm just excited to expand on this concept a little bit. So maybe you start off by yeah. Telling our listeners. Maybe how you came up with this and, and then explaining the different ones, or if they're all the same, just going into details there. 

Adam: Absolutely. Well, thank you. Well, so we, we, you and I, we decided to talk a little bit more about the income follows impact, which is just a really clever way I think, to kind of get people's attention.

And we'll expand on that shortly and I, you know, for anyone who picked that up there is there is an exercise. There is a mind set thing that I often do, which I call move the pay line, which is. Which you graciously shared in your book. And I'd love to expand on that as well. And and th they, it goes hand in hand.

It demonstrates how you actually deliver on the [00:09:00] promise of income follows impact. So if I, if I jump into it and start to kind of define. Impact means is, is really, if you listen to it, what we're saying is if you make an impact, if you make a big enough difference in someone's life and or business, there is a way for you to make a good living or you know, find some form of revenue at the end of that.

And this really comes from the idea of, I think I picked this up from Seth Godin where this, like, people are only willing to pay for something they see as. Like, so they, they, they, they, you know, they need to see value. And throughout my career, working with, with clients and, you know, having conversations and sales conversations and enrollment calls and all of that, what I notice really makes the difference is to give people an experience versus explaining the concepts.

So, for example, if, if I'm doing business coaching or if I'm doing something around life, coaching [00:10:00] me avoiding just to explain what it could do for them, me instead showing them what that could do for them always moves them closer to that decision of. Let's let's do this. Let's continue. And so through the work I did with my coach anchors Jane, at that point, we came up with that idea, that income follows impact.

The more impactful you can be as a coach, the less you will struggle as a coach. Because a lot of times we spend, we spend time on creating content. We spend time in being in conversations, and we're talking about coaching. We're talking about. The outcome what's possible. And this applies to anyone. If you're a trainer healer consultant, we're talking about, about the things that we can create, Moses actually giving them some form of experience of that.

So that's what I applied to my [00:11:00] business. It's what I try to help my clients see as well that wherever you can Well, let's not just say let's wherever you can, but, but rather say where you can try to give the experience before the concept trying to give content before the concept, like give them context because then they will actually know.

So that's kind of the income follows impact. And to be honest, Anytime. I feel a bit anxious about my bank accounts or the growth of my business. I can, I can go back and I can self-reflect and I can say, well, how much of a difference are you making? How much of an impact are you making? Right. And to be honest, it actually always puts me in a more creative mode when I go like, Let's focus on impact here.

Let's focus on making a difference versus right. Let's make more money. I, I just happen to believe, you know, be part of that group of people who are not necessarily driven by money. But impact, I mean, you, you talk about impact pioneers, [00:12:00] right? That's, that's definitely the, the, the tribe I subscribed to.

And, and so, yeah, I think that's quick and easy explanation of income follows. Yeah, 

Sarah: I love that. And what you just said, there's such a different energy to it. When you say, you know, when you're kind of in this scarcity thinking, feeling mode and you're like, well, Should I hustle more to, you know, get more clients and then that feels like more scarcity, or should I look at how can I make more impact?

And that just kind of has this opening energy. And it feels like, wow, that is very, very different. So I love that. I love that. Obviously that. Another kind of marketing concept that comes to mind is, is this idea of the know like, and trust factor, right? So I think that plays into it because if we are just talking about [00:13:00] things, Well, how will people know, like, and trust us.

And so by really experiencing you and what you can deliver that helps with that know like, and trust factor. Maybe. Maybe we could give some examples because in the typical marketing you know, path or funnel where we usually think of the typical e-book or the free audio download or things like that.

So yes, that could be an option, I guess, to, you know, work with your impact or, or trust factor, but you are talking about experiences and, and. I think that an ebook would count as an experience of podcast may count as an experience, baby. But yeah. Tell me more of what you mean by experiences. 

Adam: Mm, good.

Yes. So I think you're right. [00:14:00] There are degrees to facilitating an experience and really what I mean when I'm saying experience. We want to go for trying to give an experience of what it looks like to work together. So now obviously an ebook can sort of do that. And I would even say if it's an ebook, you do want to make sure, I think my personal recommendation is make sure that it's about.

What I mean by that is like, don't try to prop yourself up too much, like make, make your clients, your customers, the hero of that story, because it gives the, it gives the experience of working with you where it's like, you're going to put them in the center and you're going to focus on them so it can work because they can feel like, wow, he's, he's, he's really committed to my growth, our growth.

Wow. She really sees the individual. That alone can shift things right away. And then obviously we can move up the ladder and we can go to podcasts, [00:15:00] which is probably even better because you get to listen to the you know, the, the tone of the boys the pacing, the expressions the warmth or the, you know, the depth to whatever we were able to convey.

So that's another way Actually I just 

Sarah: get in there and ask something because I was just listening to a podcast today and I made this reflection where I think the last. The less kind of, you know, bells and whistles a podcast has to me. So, you know, how we all kind of got used to the super intro with Barbara, like you hired this voice and it sounds like really, whoa, look at this show and here is Sarah athletic coach.

So the less kind of professional, almost, maybe the word is it is. The more, I feel connected to the host. And I was wondering [00:16:00] about that because I, I kind of given myself permission over the years to do these muse episodes where it's just me talking and, you know, they're way easier for me to create. I just hit record and do some audio editing.

You know, not cutting out any words, but just kind of improving the audio and, and then off, off I go. But it was a big struggle to think. What are people going to think? This is not as professional as all the other ones, but then today I noticed, you know, what I love does podcast host, but yet I feel so detached because I don't feel like I'm having a real experience with them.

I just feel like. Talking to a huge audience. What do you think 

Adam: about that? Well, I think you're really onto something here. And especially going back to what you represent with the humane marketing and humane selling, I think authenticity is, is what comes up for me, right. That [00:17:00] we want to have real authentic connections to the people we surround ourselves with.

And it is part of what I actually think is. What I talk about when I talk about impact, because one of the, I think misunderstandings or myths possibly in our industry of, of being a helper is that we need to be gurus. We need to be put on pedestals and we need to be. Celebrities and you know, for anyone who can't see this, I'm smiling, as I'm saying it, there's a little bit of a, like, you know, a bit humor in this, of course there's nothing wrong with having a following or something like that.

It's just I believe that the power in, and I'm going to refer to coaching we're helping the power of the helping happens through the relationship. Because I can give you all the best tools in the world. And if our relationship is off, most likely you're not going to receive them. Like you're not going to receive them the way I intended for them to be received.

Because we're, we're having an [00:18:00] issue with how we're listening to each other, how we're connected. And if we start our relationship where you look at me and put me on a pedestal, meaning that you're looking at. At me a chance to solve we're already in an unbalanced relationship. If you're looking up at me, you might be afraid of making mistakes.

You might be afraid of confessing that you didn't do your homework that you failed. And all of a sudden we could go as deep as we need to for your sake, because you're not being honest. So my faith. My celebrity status is actually damaging the relationship and therefore the potential of my clients right now.

You also don't want to have them look down upon you, like, which is really weird if they did. But what I mean by that is we don't want to be, and this might be a touchy subject, but I'm going to go ahead and say, we don't want to overshare. We don't want to be over vulnerable [00:19:00] vulnerabilities are powerful.

And I just think we, we want to be mindful around that. And what I mean then is we, we want to avoid role reversals where our clients, all of a sudden feel like they need to comfort. That creates a very weird dynamic. And yet I see this happen. I see this happening group programs. I see this happen in conversations where we overshare something that we are simply not in a, in a space to share yet.

It's to rule now where we do want to be is really human to human. I leveled. If that's how you say it, right? Because at that point it's a more mutual, respectful human connection. And I think anything that we can to provide that kind of expensive. In an ebook, a podcast, a video, even in our emails, right?

The more we do that, the, I think that's strong with the relationship [00:20:00] becomes and the better for, for the client in terms of the potential. So what that looks like is probably very individual based on who you are and what your brand is about. And as you said, perhaps it is about less bells and whistles and more connection.

Sarah: Okay, thanks for exploring that side. Tangent. It's just, yeah, it kind of was brought up today. So I was like, oh, let me ask him that. So let's go back to the, the idea of yeah, we were talking about podcasts as being one of the things that we can offer. What would be some other experiences? 

Adam: Well, another thing you brought up as an example in your book selling like we're human.

You, you went on to explain a little bit about when I hosted my summits and the beginning of last year, where I, as far as I could, as much as I could, I was sending personal video messages to everyone who signed up [00:21:00] and it was a free event to sign up for. There were quite a few messages to go, go out.

And I sent a video message where I would S you know, wave and say mentioned the name and say, I'm glad to have you here. I hope you find this interesting. And I used to add something personal based on that day. And, and, you know, the mood I was in I add some software to help me with arts. So that made it easier.

Cause it might be a bit tricky to figure that out otherwise. And that was just something that I wanted to commit to as a way to already give people way before they even joined the, the the summit or way before they even start to reaching out to me, they are hearing my voice. They're seeing my body language.

They're seeing my, my, my facial expressions. They're getting an experience. So that's yet another way. So again, give the experience a way before people even start working. 

Sarah: Yeah. And they, they really feel, and I think they felt [00:22:00] those people who signed up for your summit, they felt heard and seen as, you know, participants of the summit.

It's not just a, you know, here's a mass email that we all know by now. Okay. Yeah. He's not really talking to me personally. So having that personal touch it's of course. Yeah. It's, it's one of the ways to, to create impact. I, I couldn't agree with you. 

Adam: I guess would it be helpful for me to expand on the move, the pay line concept?

So you kind of give people an idea of what can they do for, for themselves. So the idea that I was fortunate enough to Shane in your book move the pay line is is this idea that. Well, w we had that analogy in the book. So let me start with that. So you picture yourself on a beach where you got your bare feet in, in, in the sand, and you have a stick in your hand and you, you draw a line from top to bottom towards your feet.

So there's like two columns there, two [00:23:00] sides beyond that, that line in the sand and to the right of that. And the right column. You start writing things that you do with your clients. Once they sign up with you on state pay you and they start working with you in, in some form of container, you start adding, like I'll send out a, a workbooks.

I'm sending out my, my ebook that I wrote two years ago. I give them. Access to my oh, summits that I used to run. We create strong agreements. I give them access to me via WhatsApp and of course we have conversations and all of that, just just a few examples right now, if we've listed an exhausted our resources or ideas to what we do, once someone becomes our class.

We can then move on to the left side of that line, to the left column. And on this side, we're asking ourselves, what could I borrow from the right side onto [00:24:00] the left side, left side being, how can I give people an experience before they pay me? So now the line symbolizes a before and after payments. So all of a sudden.

I can look at all the things I provide as a part of the experience of being a pain client. Other versions of that I can share already way before they become my clients. Maybe I could give access to parts of my summit. Maybe I can get out my e-book. Maybe there are ways for me to send messages that are really directed to that individual justice.

I would, once they become my clients. And so all of a sudden we're moving the pay line in, in terms of. It was kind of moving it up into what we already offer as as for our pay paying client. Again, this way, it just helps. We don't have to come up with something new. We can just revise and review what we have and go, how can I put this out?

How can I give [00:25:00] people access to this? How can I provide an experience before they have to pay? 

Sarah: Yeah. As you know, in the selling like we're human book, I'm calling the signposts. That that's what a signpost is to me is this idea of, you know, gently leading your ideal client along the path to maybe eventually end up in your serene garden, where you do have a sales conversation, but in the meantime, you give them all these benches where they can.

And they can sit down and, and yeah. Kind of you know, listen to your podcast or to your summit and whatever, not you're sharing with them. And what I like also, what you said is. That it doesn't have to be a, you know, something new, a new, a whole course that you're creating or, you know, how we get into, like, there's a lot of talk about funnels and how we come up.

People come up with these really complicated funnels and [00:26:00] it doesn't have to be complicated. It can really just be, well, what am I already doing? And pull some things to the other side. So I love this concept of just saying. Well, what. Do I do already that, you know, doesn't cost me anything, obviously we're not wanting you to, you know, necessarily spend, you know, free coaching or, or any of that.

That's up to you if you decide to do that. But, but that's not the idea here. It's like, what do I have already that I can give for free and help with that, you know, guidance towards the serene garden. Yeah. I love that. 

Adam: If I can expand just quickly on this. This is actually something that was really is really current for me.

And I've, I've been fortunate enough now to be in really strong conversations around this. I have noticed, and it's something that I've taken for granted for quite some time. And I've noticed that [00:27:00] asking questions. Is is definitely the way. I mean, especially in my case, I'm a coach. So asking questions is kind of what I do.

So. When I slow things down and now we're talking about people who are reaching out or coming in by email or WhatsApp, there's an introduction being made and I'm connected with someone. Normally the typical thing that perhaps I would do or anyone else would do is just because that person came in. We know there's an interest.

We say, fantastic. Here's my Calendly link or here's my Yeah. Any, any calendar link that we use to schedule something or something exactly. Sign up. Hey, and let's get on a call, right? That's a typical thing. Cause we're really quick on it. If we, first of all, I think pre-qualifying can be useful. And especially because this is the side I'm seeing right now, the really cool thing is because I've been really busy.

So I've been having to pre-qualify people I've been having to extend some of them [00:28:00] time I spend with people. And so I've been asking more questions and the really cool thing happened just a couple of weeks ago, where someone came into my sphere and. I started asking questions and I kept asking questions and I had her come up with, well, it seem deeper and deeper.

And as like, even the first message I sent her, she was like, oh my God, those are great questions. And this is also a coach. So I found that really humbling that she felt like, oh, those were really good questions. And we kept going the day after. I receive randomly from my website, someone going through my application form to sign up for a free conversation with me.

They went through, they scheduled a conversation with me and usually I have an idea of who's coming in and who's not. So this was a random person. I couldn't recognize the name. And we were starting having a conversation because of the email coming in. And she, she told [00:29:00] me, well, I came in because of.

You're in conversation with another woman and she recommended me to reach out to you and that's the woman I'm texting with. So she's already having an experience of the possibility that's on offer here so much so that she's willing to even say to someone she knows, you know what? You produce, probably have a look at his website.

She'd probably look into this guy and that that woman then goes through and kind of comes out the other side of. In my calendar right now, I'm sharing that just to say, kind of highlight the power of again, giving the experience. So even before I'm accepting anyone before we get on a call before those money exchanged, she's experiencing the possibility of work together through the questions through me, having her see.

Yeah. 

Sarah: Yeah, that is powerful. And instead of, you know, maybe increasing the filters and saying, no, let me [00:30:00] block you out. We can just engage in the questions. And from there still then decide, you know, is this a good fit or not yet? 

Adam: And you mentioned this thing that it doesn't have to cost a lot. And I just want to say that, that part of what I tend to do is I send other people's resources.

I've sent your book to people. I've made sure that they listen to episodes of your podcast. I have a list. I got a long list. I call the ultimate resource list. Right. And I just keep adding things there. If I watch a really good YouTube video, I'll add it to that. Now we can send other people's results.

And we can say, Hey, if you enjoy that, we should get on a call and explore that. Right? So already asking questions, sending them useful resources, having them do some homework, even before they start working with us, having them experience transformations way before they stopped paying us is a beautiful way to introduce the idea of the experience rather than the concept.[00:31:00] 

And I'm not going to say any more because clearly I can talk about this forever, but it's, I hope we're giving some ideas to the, the audience, the listeners on how they can start doing pieces of this themselves. 

Sarah: Yeah, yeah, no, I liked that a lot. This, this idea of experience versus I guess transaction, I, the word that comes up, so yeah.

Yeah. I want to steer you in another direction. I think a lot of the listeners they are. And you notice you're in the circle, we're you know, heart-centered entrepreneurs where impact pioneers. So we are, you don't need to tell us, you need to give before you get usually that's, you know, we're good at that.

And so I think that is a great advantage. And it can also get to the point where it becomes a disadvantage or it becomes a challenge. I know I share about the, my over-giving [00:32:00] burnout in the marketing, like where human book. And I know that you had kind of have a, an over giving or, or just kind of a burnout moment as well in.

Previous career. So maybe tell us about the, that burnout story and what it was linked to you. And then. Yeah, how do we, how do we deal with that? How do we still give, and yet also make sure that we are, you know, safe and healthy and happy. 

Adam: Yeah. Th this is an important topic, especially for us. You said heart centered entrepreneurs.

So my own personal experience and I I've, I've had it several times. Like it's, it's, you know, I think it's, to me, it was just, it's a tendency, it's a strength. And it's also one of my. Greatest. Potentials. So in, in my corporate career I had a burnout because I've just continuously saying if only I have X, then things will be better.

And I kept saying that it [00:33:00] was like the carrot on a stick just dangling in front of me. And I was continuously saying like, I'll just get to that point. Then everything will be fine. I got to that point, but something else was now not, not good. And I continued and I continued and finally, I just couldn't get out of bed.

I had clearly. Went way beyond my boundaries. So that was part of what I needed to understand. And I did come up with an idea after that w which has been really helpful in, in, in my coaching and my personal life as well. And it is this to kind of fill your own cup first. And, and I, I call this energy management.

So. I have this idea that, and we all know this, like recharging our batteries and filling our own cup is often a really powerful way to do, especially for helpers because we're, we're far more effective when our cups are full or our batteries are full. The challenge though, is that we tend to feel that.

And then we start giving again and, you know, because we're giving the [00:34:00] levels decrease and now we're down to 30, 30%. And all of a sudden we only have a maximum capacity of 30 to give. Whereas if I would have been back on hundreds, I could have given much, much more. So my personal insights, my, my solution to that became to fill my cup up and keep.

Because it's the overflow that I then share freely. And so for me, it was about figuring out what fills my cup. And once I figured that out, make sure that it never gets turned off. So I start my day. I make sure that parts of my agenda is to fill my cup and keep it full because then if I move into a space of service, there's no depletion because it's an ever flowing.

Sarah: Yeah, I love that picture. It's just like the minute it's empty, it's filling again. And then you share whatever is, you know, [00:35:00] dripping over and it has a lot to do with, you know, abundance. Like that's what abundance is, is that that's when you. Can really share from this energy of abundance, because the minute you feel like, oh, there's less.

And you know, I'm not feeling great and there's not enough for me. Well, guess what? You're not in abundance anymore. You're now in scarcity. And so that's also where this stressed and comes from. The other term. You mentioned boundaries. So I think that's an important part of it, right? Like we're not, we're not inviting you to just give without limits.

Yes. You know, first of all yeah. Have your cup always full, but even then there's boundaries. Like if someone asks you, do you work for free? Well, no, of course not. You know, there, there are boundaries that you need to put in place. Do you work on the [00:36:00] weekend? No. If, if, if you don't want to work on the weekends, then that's a big, no.

So there is a yeah, a big importance on, on boundaries and, and, and working on those and the I'll let you in, in a second, the other term I wanted to throw at you was ambition. So talk to us about boundaries and and then also ambition. 

Adam: Perfect. Yeah, exactly. I wanted to make that connection. So it's W with the, with the boundaries.

The ID I like to talk about around that is really when it comes to our us being heart-centered entrepreneurs helpers, we want to understand that there is a distinction here. There is being passionate about what you do, and also being a pro. And in, in early days when I started things, I was just passionate.

I was, I was on a mission. I had a purpose and I was giving again. I told you I've [00:37:00] burned out several times, not just at my corporate career, but also doing what I'm doing today. So I've, I've, I've had to learn that and relearn that. And part of that is when things shifted for me, I was working with a coach who helped me see.

There is a distinction by turning into a pro. One can, one can argue. It's, it's a question about the social self and the professional self. The social self wants to be liked and is afraid of saying no, we're putting boundaries in the professional self is the side that says, well, actually, I realize when I'm depleted, I'm doing a far less less impactful work than I otherwise could.

So because of that, I limit the number of calls, the number of hours I work per week, so that I can guarantee to people to always show up on our high frequency, for example. Right. So that, so that's the distinction I'm trying to allow people to see is really. [00:38:00] Turn pro like stop treating this as a business, not as a hobby, not as just a passion project.

I mean, if, if that's what you want, of course, to turn this into a business. And if we do, we are professionals be proud of that. And, and honor that, and it does tie into this idea of ambition and defining your success. But. If we don't define what success looks like to us, it is easy to overdo it. It is easy to think.

Well, five clients are pro is probably better than, than. So let's go for fine. Well, that's the whole thing, right? Is it really, to you for you, maybe for clients is perfect for you because it allows you to have that time, that space to recharge and always make sure that you're coming from a place of full, maybe gives you time to grow, learn and stay on top of things and so on and so on.

So you want to take charge of that.[00:39:00] 

Ambition is a tricky thing. Like we could probably have a whole conversation about this, because that was my key, key learning. When I shifted away from, from where I was there is like in human beings, we have this amazing ability to be ambitious. It is, it is an amazing ability because you don't see this everywhere else.

Like. If you look at animals, for example, they're not very ambitious. They're very concerned about the present moments, surviving humans, though. We put away money today so that we possibly can use that when we retire. That's very ambitious. That's very how do you say that for forward thinking? Yeah. And at the same time, if all you have is ambition, you will struggle with actually living in the present moment.

And to be honest, life really happens only in the present moment. So we're missing out on a big piece of, of life. So [00:40:00] the opposite of ambition is enthusiasm, according to me. So we, it's one thing to use. And we also want to balance that with enthusiasm, meaning the excite excitement we feel in the present moment.

Right? And so again, what can help us not to go to fall? Which is a typical thing. When we measure money, we measure followers. We measure tangible metrics is that 10 is good. 11 is good. 15 is even better. And then we just like, kind of start rolling because the ambition takes over. That's where we can start going.

What's my upper lip. What's the limit that I would be happy to reach without necessarily sacrificing or crossing my boundaries, sacrificing my boundaries so that I can make sure to come from a place of abundance. First does this tidy all together, Sarah? [00:41:00] Yeah. 

Sarah: No, it's so good. I'm so glad you, you mentioned this upper limit.

I think it's. We are so. Brainwashed to always think about growth and more growth and more growth that, you know, the conversation of what if there was an upper limit. And what if, and obviously we're talking about money here as well. Right? What if I reached that upper limit and then I can really just.

Do the things that fill my cup and then if it would still brings me joy then yeah. Maybe, maybe I can do some more because obviously we've also all chosen work that we love doing, but that's also where the danger is. I think, in, in our work, I mean, yes, it's great that we get to work and love it. And at the same time you can fall so much in love with your work.

That in the end, you're still working all the time. Me now. And then [00:42:00] yeah, I think it's, it can be addictive. So, so I think it's a, it's worth having a conversation. You know, especially if you have a partner and loved ones and you're like, well, actually, yeah, I do love my work, but you know, how do they fit into the equation as well?

So, So yeah, so good to have this and yeah. Enthusiasm. Isn't, that is a great word and curiosity as well. You know, where, where it's like, well, yeah, I have this ambition, but I have all this curiosity for other things that I want to do that maybe don't have to do with work. And, you know, Maybe if I do have this upper limit, then I have more time for following my curiosity.

So honesty is one of my core values. So it's just like, yeah, I do want to do all these other things as well. So so good. Yeah. Is there anything that we haven't talked about [00:43:00] yet that you wanted to bring up with this idea of moving the pale paler? 

Adam: Well, I was thinking about one other thing. Once we, you know, as I was preparing in my mind about this and it was this not to make this a big things, a very small distinction that can sometimes help to understand what it means to focus on the impact.

And it is, it is this idea of don't don't look for clients, look for ways to be helpful. So. Whenever someone feels stuck. Like I can't find clients, where do I find clients? Well, let's not focus on clients. Let's focus on helping people being helpful. And, and again, obviously going back to what we just shared about boundaries and turning pro and defining success so that it actually makes sure to support your lifestyle goals when we start looking for ways to be helpful The spin off effects.

The side effect of that is often [00:44:00] a poster becoming a client. It just, it sort of happens by itself. And to me, I found that to be quite. Helpful when, when the anxiety of, oh, I need clients. When that comes up, I just go like, hang on. Let's be helpful. Where can I be helpful? Because it's easy to find that then finding clients, I don't walk around seeing dollar signs above people's heads.

Right. It's just not what I do. 

Sarah: Yeah, that brings up. This is when I used to call organized LinkedIn local events here in, in Lozan. We maybe organize that with a friend and people came to these networking events, like you said, looking for clients. And I always told them don't your clients are not here.

These are people, humans that may just know other humans who need you know, what you have to offer, but it's never a good idea to go to a [00:45:00] networking event and think those are all my potential clients. Like you give off the wrong energy, if you go into a room like that. So yeah, just thinking, oh, these are humans who may know other humans who have.

Then yeah, potentially gonna have want to work with me, but, but also don't think, oh, I'm going to tell them, you know, tell all your friends about me. No, that's not planning 

Adam: their. 

Sarah: Yeah. Wonderful. Thank you so much, Adam. I want you to share two things. First of all where people can find you, how they can find out how to work with you in a second.

I think you have something where you walk your talk and people can really experience What it would be like to be in your circles. So tell us about, yeah, 

Adam: exactly. Well, the easiest way, I guess, is you can just visit my website, which is Adam koala. K a w a L E c.com. And they, you can get in [00:46:00] touch with me.

You can read more about the things that I do together with my clients. And you can send me an email from there as well. I am on social media. But I'm not a huge, huge fan or like a very, very present person there. So it can take some time before I see something, if you really want to make sure to get in touch with me send me an email and that's the that's the best way.

And yes. So I, I really, I mean, I enjoy. Our conversations. And we started getting to know each other a year ago. And I was so happy when you decided to you were accepting my invitation to be part of my summit that I did last year, calling the authentic business building and marketing summit and authenticity to me like that.

I just needed you to be part of that. So, and I'm so glad I did. And you said, yes. So to honor that kind of, I, I, I wanted to offer all the listeners a way to access the, the interview I did with you. And two additional interviews that are really on the topic of authenticity and connection [00:47:00] and providing experience for people.

So and they can go again to my, my home website and it's Adam koala.com forward slash humane marketing. Human marketing protocols and that's where they can basically sign up for, for taxes, those three videos. And I'm sure that you'll link that somewhere around this episode as 

Sarah: well. And the show notes and in the description of your, of your app, where you're listening to this podcast.

So, yeah. Wonderful and generous offer. Thank you. And that summit was just so great. So thank you so much. And the final question, Adam, what are you grateful for today or this week? 

Adam: I am going to say that I'm back running that I'm really grateful for, for being back running it's I took a bit of a, a pause during holidays and all of that, and today was my first day back running.

And I'm really grateful for that. Like, it's, it's one of my, that's one of the things that [00:48:00] really feels like. And I can tell because the last few weeks slowly, slowly been some early drippings happening, happening for my, my refilling my cup. So I wouldn't say that. Yeah. Running nature moving the body.

Sarah: Wonderful. Thank you so much for being on the show, Adam. Really 

Adam: appreciate it. Thank you for having me.

This is a short muse episode where I answer the question "How can we, as Humane Marketers, use our Personal Power to influence world peace?"

 

Sarah's Resources

Watch this episode on Youtube

(FREE) Sarah's One Page Marketing Plan

(FREE) Sarah Suggests Newsletter

(FREE) The Humane Business Manifesto

(FREE) Gentle Confidence Mini-Course

Marketing Like We're Human - Sarah's book

The Humane Marketing Circle

Authentic & Fair Pricing Mini-Course

Podcast Show Notes

Email Sarah at [email protected]

Thanks for listening!

 

After you listen, check out Humane Business Manifesto, an invitation to belong to a movement of people who do business the humane and gentle way and disrupt the current marketing paradigm. You can download it for free at this page. There's no opt-in. Just an instant download.

Are you enjoying the podcast?  The Humane Marketing show is listener-supported—I'd love for you to become an active supporter of the show and join the Humane Marketing Circle. You will be invited to a private monthly Q&A call with me and fellow Humane Marketers -  a safe zone to hang out with like-minded conscious entrepreneurs and help each other build our business and grow our impact.  — I'd love for you to join us! Learn more at humane.marketing/circle

Don't forget to subscribe to the show on iTunes or on Android to get notified for all my future shows and why not sign up for my weekly(ish) "Sarah Suggests Saturdays", a round-up of best practices, tools I use, books I read, podcasts, and other resources.

Raise your hand and join the Humane Business Revolution.

Warmly,

Sarah

Imperfect Transcript of the show

Hello friends. So I promised I'd record a short muse episode to tell you about what came out of our reflection on how we as humane marketers can use our personal power to influence world peace. Personal power is the second P of the humane marketing one Dalla. And if you're a regular here, you already know that I'm organizing the conversations around the seven PS of the humane marketing. Mandalah. 

And if this is your first time here. Well, first of all, this is a muse episode, so it's just me today. And second of all, you can download your one page marketing plan with the humane marketing version of the seven piece of humane [email protected] forward slash one page. That's the number one and then page. 

It comes with seven email prompts to really help you reflect on these different piece for your business. So. Personal power. And I thought it was timely to think about how we can use our personal power. Our influence really to contribute to world peace. And it really was a beautiful circle call. I'm just absolutely amazed by this community and the change we all want to create on our respective levels. 

So we. Collaborated on a mural. Which is a non-line sketch board where the different groups, we split up into three different groups and they wrote down. Or we all wrote down our ideas about this topic. So what I thought I would do is just read some of these ideas to you. And hopefully spark some. 

Some ideas for yourself. So here we go. Concentrate on smaller circles. So you can have nuanced conversations to build understanding. Larger audience and social media tends to be black and white thinking. Second one, look at people as humans, not just nationalities, titles, gender, et cetera. Think this one is so important because especially for. 

On social media right now. You know, we're doing the same old thing again, whereas like good guy, bad guy. And we have to really be really careful about that. I think so that it doesn't, you can't answer war with more war. Right. So I think we need to really be careful here and think about humans in general. 

And the next one is say no to using fear in our own marketing and allow comfortable conversation and gentler language. Yeah. I'm so good. So glad someone brought this up because it really. Is like marketing is a reflection of what we're feeling. And so that's why when I first started thinking about gentle marketing, humane marketing, I really noticed all this anxiety. And so obviously now it's 10 times more than even five years ago. So if we're then even. 

Being confronted with fear in marketing or yeah, kinda just aggressiveness. Then that just increases anxiety even more. So. Let's go back to gentler language in words do really matter. So pay attention even more. So to two words. And other one continued to live life and embrace joy in the midst of distress to remind us of what makes us essentially human. 

F another one yet focus on your inner peace. First, several people actually set that and I had to focus on that too. And I'll share a little bit after. What helped me. Next one, share appreciation a smile, joy flowers. I think it's so true that so many of us right now, Just pay attention to the little things. And so it really helps to feel appreciated and to. 

Yeah. Feel noticed, heard and seen. And next one, protect your energy. Maybe you need more alone time. Right now. I noticed that. Even though community helps, but thinking more about protecting your energy, especially with social media. Like, I was barely on LinkedIn because every time I went there, it was all about. 

You know, one worst is the other Russia versus Ukraine. And so it just didn't feel good. So protect your energy. I don't check the news too often. I'm more of the camp where I feel like, no, I still need to, or I still want to be in the note. So I do check the news, not on TV, but on. On 'em. 

You know, my online sources. But. Yeah, I still want to know what's going on. I just feel that responsibility to be informed, but obviously I don't want to be. On the TV. Or on social media all day long. So just do what feels good to you. Protect your energy. And another person wrote sync globally act locally. I think that is so important as well, because I think what happened to me. 

When I first felt totally overwhelmed is like, well, I always had this from very young. I felt like it's just like all this weight on my shoulders. I feel like the world is counting on me. And yet I've felt so powerless. And so I think that really helps to think. Okay. I can think globally. But then my actions can only apply them. 

Here locally in my own circle of influence. So I think that's a good reminder. Someone else wrote connect with legislators. So that is also a good idea to kind of politically get engaged and, and help our lawmakers understand, you know, this is, this matters to us. So. That's a great way to use our personal power. 

Someone else wrote, ask questions, use curiosity. So again, rather than just immediately judging and black and white thinking, I think it really helps in these times, especially too. Ask questions and use curiosity instead of judgment. Dance sing and laugh. They are on anti-war statements. So I love this. 

It took me some time to. Come come back to the singing and laughing and listening to music. I think we can, you know, Let the sadness be sadness, but then yes. I had to realize, well, I'm not helping anybody if I'm, if I'm. You know, in the state or of over. Over really. So yeah. Yes. To dancing, singing, and laughing. 

Reach out to people. Many are alone. I think that's also a an important reminder right now that. You know, it's okay to be alone if everything is well, but right now we're just in such difficult and heavy. Energy. That it. People who are alone, they feel it even more. So, so do reach out to people. 

And, and, and that can be again in your immediate circle of influence, or it can be through your marketing and there again, you just use gentler language and you. Make people feel heard and seen. And then finally they all said, you know, be in community. Be with the people who think like you be with the ones that feel like, yeah, they're part of the solution. They also want to make change. So. 

Those are some of the ideas. And like I said, it was just a really beautiful call to feel like, okay, we, yes, we can't solve world peace, but we can each do our own little saying. Because frankly what's the other solution. There is no other solution. We just have to focus on what we can control. 

And so I shared that I really needed to find peace in myself. First. I wasn't in a good place. I as an HSP, I was completely overwhelmed with emotions and the collective pain. And I'm much better now. And so I wanted to share a few things that helped me in case. In case that's. You know, helpful and you're dealing with some of the collective sadness. So what really helped were several things, first of all, tapping. So EFT tapping that always helps me. And there was a really good session on. 

Tapping on peace. With a guy called Brad He's kind of. Quite popular around the tapping. So Brad Yates, just look on YouTube for tapping on peace. And it really helped me kind of letting go of this limiting belief that I had to be sad. It always felt like. You know, I was judging people who were not feeling this sadness. I'm like, but how could you not be sad? It's, you know, it's like the end of the world. 

And, and he helped me kind of letting go of that and understanding that it's not helping anyone. If I'm an emotional mess. So yeah, that's a good one too, to look at tapping on piece. Then one of my friends recommended geranium essential oil. So geranium apparently. And I don't know if I pronounced that correctly. 

It's a flower. We often have that flower in front of our windows in Switzerland. It's these red flowers that you put on, on balcony railings, usually. Geranium is good for kind of keeping the bad. And they're G out and bringing the good energy in. I took CBD for a few days. So I think that helped as well. What it did definitely help that it was sunny. So it's been sunny for two weeks here, so that really helped walking nature. 

Walk with a dog. If you have a one, or like me, you put up an ad on pet sitting and. On some kind of pet sitting site and find a dog I'm so happy. I found. This, this chocolate Labrador that I now walk twice per week and she's just so much fun. She makes me laugh. You know, which I, yeah. Once the kids are grown up, they don't, they don't really make you laugh that much anymore. 

And they definitely don't laugh at your jokes. So it's a, it's fun to go a walk with the dog. Listening to Abba as well is always my go-to kind of lifting up music. I also started going to, well, I always go to bed early, but I advanced it to. 9:00 PM just because I was exhausted, I felt like I needed more sleep. 

And then I don't, I still don't sleep perfectly. You know, until in the morning I kind of wake up and then thoughts coming in, I need to kind of do some meditation and yoga nidra, maybe. So that's another thing that helped a yoga nidra. Alternate nostril breathing can Google all of these and And yeah, reaching out to friends without necessarily meeting them because my energy wasn't. 

In that place where I wanted to talk to many people, but just knowing that they understand and, and, and yeah, they made me feel better with a couple of WhatsApp messages. So once I felt better after about three days, then I felt like, oh, okay, now I can. You know, be an action again then. So I wrote a mini series of emails that's currently going out about growing your business without social media. 

Cause I dunno. I just really felt like social media. You know, makes all the, all of this even worse. I mean, yes, there's good things. Yes. We're all, you know, sharing how we can help. So that's definitely positive. But at the same time, you can't. Unfortunately just filter out the negative stuff. And so there's still all these messages that kind of make, make your anxiety go up. 

So I thought, okay, this is good timing. I need to write an email series about growing your business without social media. It's also because quite a few members in the marketing, like we're human program right now. They're like, I could care less about social media. That's not how I want to grow my business. 

So yeah. Then I also sent some flowers to my sister and bought some flowers for the women at the workshop I taught on international women's day. And, and finally I built more rest into my days. So really making sure that I have this. Half hour, 45 minutes to close my eyes lie down at lunch. 

Because again, I am. Just, I feel like I'm needing more rest and, and I'm still not sleeping. You know, a really deep sleep at night. So now I, I feel like I can make a difference again on my small circles of influence. And I'm hoping that you, he or something, he heard something here today that will make you take action as well. Whether that is. 

You know, in the immediate small circles or in your marketing. Whether it's first finding peace within or, or sharing peace with others. Because humane marketing is also peace marketing. It's about sharing. Love, not sharing fear. So yeah. Thank you so much for listening and being part of a generation of marketers who cares. 

For yourself. Your clients and the planet. And if you'd like to join us in our humane marketing circle in April, the doors will be open again soon. So become part of a group of heart-centered entrepreneurs who are real caring and interested in growing their business so that they can be part of the solution, not the problem. 

Can get on the waiting list right now. And we really look forward to meeting you soon. Can find out more humane.marketing/circle because we are Changemakers before we are marketers. Now go be the change you want to see in the world. Speak soon.   

Today's conversation with Siobhan Jones about why writing a book is good for your business fits under the P of Product in the 7Ps of the Humane Marketing Mandala

Siobhan Jones is a Writing Mentor, Self-Publishing Coach, and founder of The Unlocked Creative. Writing has always been on Siobhan's heart.
After going from trauma to triumph Siobhan realized she had a story to share, a purpose to pen and a reason to write. She realized that she was called to help women stop hiding and go after their writing dream.

Now, Siobhan helps women to plan, write and publish their first book. Siobhan lives in Canberra, Australia with the loves of her life; her daughter, husband, and two talkative cats. When she's not writing you can find Siobhan spending time with her family, patting cats, drinking coffee, imagining cactuses and sheep, and running (not all at the same time).

Siobhan's favorite quote:
"Don't wait. The time will never be just right." - Napoleon Hill

In this episode, you'll learn why writing a book is good for your business, and...

• The self-publishing process
• The pros and cons of self-publishing (and how your ego plays a role)
• An idea of costs related to self-publishing
• Why writing a book is good for business
• Ways to make time for writing your book while running your business
• How to put your inner critic on mute and write your business book
• The structure and/or discipline of writing
• and so much more.

Siobhan's Resources

 

Siobhan's Website

The Unlocked Creative Podcast

Get the Time to Write guide and find more time to write your book!

Connect with Siobhan on:

Instagram

Facebook

Facebook Group

 

Sarah's Resources

Watch this episode on Youtube

(FREE) Sarah's One Page Marketing Plan

(FREE) Sarah Suggests Newsletter

(FREE) The Humane Business Manifesto

(FREE) Gentle Confidence Mini-Course

Marketing Like We're Human - Sarah's book

The Humane Marketing Circle

Authentic & Fair Pricing Mini-Course

Podcast Show Notes

Email Sarah at [email protected]

Thanks for listening!

 

After you listen, check out Humane Business Manifesto, an invitation to belong to a movement of people who do business the humane and gentle way and disrupt the current marketing paradigm. You can download it for free at this page. There's no opt-in. Just an instant download.

Are you enjoying the podcast?  The Humane Marketing show is listener-supported—I'd love for you to become an active supporter of the show and join the Humane Marketing Circle. You will be invited to a private monthly Q&A call with me and fellow Humane Marketers -  a safe zone to hang out with like-minded conscious entrepreneurs and help each other build our business and grow our impact.  — I'd love for you to join us! Learn more at humane.marketing/circle

Don't forget to subscribe to the show on iTunes or on Android to get notified for all my future shows and why not sign up for my weekly(ish) "Sarah Suggests Saturdays", a round-up of best practices, tools I use, books I read, podcasts, and other resources.

Raise your hand and join the Humane Business Revolution.

Warmly,

Sarah

Imperfect Transcript of the show

Sarah: [00:00:00] Hi, Chavon. How are you today? 

Siobhan: Hello? I am so well, how are you? 

Sarah: I'm good too. Yeah. And you just mentioned you, you moved house and as an introvert and highly sensitive person that it feels always like, oh, that is a big thing. I dunno how, how you feel, but to me, moving is a big. 

Siobhan: It's a big thing and it's always surprising how much stuff.

Actually exists that 

Sarah: we don't use. Yeah. Yeah. You collect things over time and then it's a good opportunity to get rid of some stuff as well. 

Siobhan: Yeah, it absolutely is. Yes. But, but subtly, I think sometimes you have to do it a bit subtly. Yeah. 

Sarah: Yeah. Nice. Bye bye. This is the second time you actually get to chat and talk.

I was on your podcast and now you're here talking to us about book writing, and I'm really excited to [00:01:00] dive into this topic. First of all, also, because I've just gone through that last year and then also. Curious to hear what you think about it. And you kind of brought up this conversation around, you know writing a book can be good for your business.

And so we'll dive into that, but maybe before we start I'd be curious to have you share a bit, you know, how you became a book writing, mentor, how you, how do you decide, okay. That is what I'm going to do. 

Siobhan: This is a, this is a great question and I'll try and keep it. The short version, not the long version.

A few years ago, I was sort of having some doubts about my career in communications in government. And I wasn't sure what to do. And I thought, you know, I've spent so many years practicing this communication craft, helping clients to [00:02:00] essentially market their services and programs to the public. And I just didn't want to progress with promotions anymore.

And I wasn't sure what the heck to do. And so I thought, well, what was, you know, what was the thing that I love to do as a kid? Because I really wanted to connect deeply with something meaningful because one of my core values is meaningful work or impact. And I. Yeah. Thought back to when I was a child and just absolutely loved to write stories and remembered how I wanted to be April from the teenage mutant ninja turtles, but maybe not so much of a reporter, more of a.

Telling the truth and whatever that is. So I really went on this a bit of a journey. I started writing children's picture books, [00:03:00] and then I began writing and reconnecting with the spoken word through my podcast, which really lit me up. And then. Helping other people to start that writing process themselves.

And it was just, you know, I think the hardest thing about starting to write is starting to rise. 

Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. This is so good. I love that you went back to your childhood. I, I tell that to my clients or it's part of the humane marketing approach is like, well, how do you figure out what your past. About or what your, why is, or, you know, guy kind of does big purpose word?

Well, oftentimes it is, you know, going back to what you'd like to do as a child. And I love that you did that in order to figure out then while you know, what is, is, is it that I really want to do so good. Yeah. Thank you. 

Siobhan: Thank you. Yeah. And [00:04:00] I hope that, you know, people listening who might be in a career transition or not really sure of the next step knows that they're absolutely not alone.

Sarah: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. So, so then you, you started writing children's books, but I think eventually you also kind of pivoted into this whole idea of helping others with their book. Right. Tell us what you learned in that journey of then writing your own business books, so to speak that work for 

Siobhan: you. This is, this is also one of those see I'm a very, I really like to plan things in my life and this was yet again, one of those things that was completely unplanned.

I. I spoke with, I have a business coach and, you know, I was speaking about how I would like to get my children's picture books, published the stories published in the [00:05:00] traditional sense. And she really questioned me on it and said, well, why wouldn't you just self-publish them? And I thought, I have resistance to this idea.

Why do I have resistance to this idea? And then I thought I'm going to go after this because what I find happens with me is that I get resistance there for a reason. And thankfully I have people kind of like signposts, helpful souls along the way to help me really get back on the right path. And Question and reflect why I might be resisting things.

So I, I really did some discernment work and thought, I don't actually want to self publish the children's picture books yet they need more work, but I will go ahead and self publish. And it was just a matter of them deciding what that, what that was going to be. And the thing that I had had done. [00:06:00] You know, I'd had lots of content available on my podcast for free, and many of those things were really quite practical steps and strategies that people can take to, you know, when they're learning about how to start writing, how to make it a habit and then, and then how to go on and, and self-publish, but what I wanted to do was actually self-publish my own.

So that I could help other people from that extra layer of experience that I think is absolutely crucial whenever you are teaching people or helping others to reconnect with their own writing or creative inspiration. So that's sort of the journey of what I've been on. And honestly, self publishing.

It's just opened a whole new world for me. And I know that it's, it's something that. You know is not, you know, it hasn't been around for hundreds of years, but the technology at the moment [00:07:00] is allowing quite a large growth in that industry. So there's lots of opportunity. 

Sarah: Yeah. Did you end up publishing your children's books?

The traditional way? 

Siobhan: Not yet. I am still working on those. So I think for me, I I definitely would like to, and it's something that I will pursue, but I have another project up my sleeve at the moment. So. That that's that's something that I'm focusing on this year is this new project, which is actually writing a memoir.

So it's something that I haven't done before and am really, really excited about where it can lead. I just think, you know, I, I kind of boxed myself in thinking I'll just be a children's picture book writer, but this is opened up that other door for me as well to think about. Well, there are actually other kind of formats and categories of variety, and it's [00:08:00] just immense this opportunity that we have to really express that express ourselves creative.

Sarah: Right. Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting. Cause I went through the same thing when I thought about, you know, do I self publish? Do I publish within, you know, the traditional way? And, and there's obviously two camps. If you do search online or, you know, if you work with coaches and one will tell you, this is absolutely the only way.

And then others tell you, well, you can be just as I was going to say successful, but a. That's not really the word I want to use, but you can get the book out there and attract the right people even with self-publishing. And so I really also had to think about, for me, what really was the driving factor, as well as the timing because I, I just felt that my books were very Timely, like they needed to come out now.

Not, you know, when I eventually [00:09:00] found an editor as sorry, I publisher and it just like I had to get them out now. So I think that makes a huge difference. Even I'm talking to friends who are kind of hybrid publishing, so meaning they have some kind of a support with the publishing. They actually do print the book.

And even there there's like the time it takes as much longer even though you pay for those, you know, you pay up front and it takes much more time to actually get the book out and there's delays. And where in the self publishing process. I feel like you are really the driver of this thing. Of course there's, you know, editing if you're hopefully gonna go through some editing phases, but, but you are in much more in control than if you work with the traditional way.

Would you agree with that? Is that also your experience? 

Siobhan: Absolutely agree with that. You know, with some of the benefits of self-publishing, as you would know, [00:10:00] Sarah, you own the rights to your book rather than the publisher owning those rights. You, you know, like you've just said, you don't have to wait around for months for a publisher to reply to your query letter.

You know, you get to choose with the suppliers that you want to work with along the way. So people like editors and graphic designers, it's a huge, it's a huge advantage. Being able to. Personally tos the people that you're going to be working with collaboratively, which is another gorgeous part of, you know, self publishing and creating this thing and birthing and into the world.

I think, you know, you get to craft your own journey, your own steps along the way. And you know, in the time of. That really matters to you and your, your life priorities. So I, these are the things that, to me were really meaningful [00:11:00] and things that I hadn't really thought about prior to finding out more about self publishing.

Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. It's so important. And, and I know countless stories of people who worked with a publisher and kind of felt like they had. You know, Ben their integrity just a little bit, because we didn't really feel exactly aligned you know, the cover didn't look like they wanted it to look, or they had to use a certain title just because it's sold more because obviously the publisher's job then is to sell as many books as possible.

So, so yeah, it's really also, I think in my opinion, it's really a question of ethics as well. It's like, Are you okay. You know, going really with the big publisher to go after more book sales in a way I'm hesitating to bring this up, but I think there's also a question of ego in this game. This, if you look at the people who [00:12:00] have, you know, published with with the real publisher that.

It does sound still good. Right. And maybe that's also why we had resistance to go with self-publishing. It's like, oh, but that's not the real thing. You know, 

Siobhan: it's like a hundred percent. 

Sarah: My ego gets a little hit if I'm not really publishing the real traditional way. So I think there's some deeper inner work to do there.

Siobhan: I love that you brought that up, because that was definitely a piece of my own resistance. And particularly towards children's picture books. I had one of the self publishing platforms that I help people to navigate. A representative from there actually said, you know, pretty much you can publish any type of book.

We don't, I wouldn't necessarily recommend children's picture books. And I thought, oh, that's curious, because it has to do with the, [00:13:00] with the quality of the paper and the book material. And her sense was that. Children's picture books, you know, getting, getting there where she's at the point where she has to really try to see that it's self-published but other books are probably better done you know, in, in other genres and with other types of materials available.

But yeah, really, for me, it was like, I remember having a conversation with my husband about it saying. You know, I would really like to have these particular stories published by a publisher by, you know, a real industry publisher as someone who's known. And he just looked at me and said, isn't that just an ego thing?

And I went, oh, so I really liked these conversations. People that you can trust about how you're feeling. And I, and I absolutely agree with you. [00:14:00] It did require some work on the ego. And you know, I think another thing to remember as well is that if you are thinking, if you're really. Kind of hanging on this idea of being traditionally, traditionally published.

There are people today who have self-published and then had their material picked up by traditional publishers, because they've seen that it's successful in the market, which is primarily what publishers are looking at. So that's something to keep in mind as well. 

Sarah: Yeah. The backup plan you're telling your ego.

Well, there's always that chance. 

Siobhan: Exactly. Calm down.

Sarah: Okay. That's great. I love that word sharing kind of openly about this eco stuff that's going on. Yeah. When you're deciding, you know, which way to go. Let's talk about. You know, just in general, why writing a [00:15:00] book and having a book can be good for a business an entrepreneur coach consultant any type of service entrepreneur.

Siobhan: Absolutely. So I think for me, there are five key things. The first, the first benefit is relationship. So, you know, for entrepreneurs and solopreneurs, you can really build that one-to-one intimate knowing relationship with your, with your client or your prospective clients. So it is a form of long. It is long form content, which helps to really create and nurture.

The knowing relationship between you, the author and the person with the expertise in a particular area, which is what you're telling through your story in your book and that real connection through your, through the language and stories that you're telling about the expertise, but also with fragments of [00:16:00] yourself strewn throughout the book that your client's going to resonate with.

So, you know, I think. It helps your client to understand your values as well. And, and what you stand for, which is either going to repel or attract people. So you know, but it's, it is a really powerful medium. So that's the first thing I would say. The second is, you know, It's you providing a transformation to someone, you know, whether it's a solution that you might have that's related to, I don't know, say you're a vegan chef or something, you know, a solution to meal planning during the week and your story of how you got to w how you meal plan as a vegan, you know, it's, it's something that you can teach really easily through a book format.

So. You know, I think transformation doesn't have to be necessarily transforming your whole life, but pieces [00:17:00] of your life that eventually lead to greater change. So that's number two. Number three is, and I mentioned a little bit about this before, but you're showing that you do have expertise in this particular area, so of your business and really You're building your credibility by having this essentially, it's one of the tool tools that you have in your toolkit as a business owner.

You know, you can also have greater visibility when you're connecting with other business owners and collaborating with other people on, you know, who can help you to promote your book, but also establishing those relationships I think is really crucial. So that's the third thing. And the fourth thing is.

It's low cost. And when I say that, I say it with a caveat because you can make it as expensive as you like to produce your book. Essentially, you can make it, you can do it on a pretty tight budget. You know, if you don't want to [00:18:00] produce a printed book, you can produce an ebook and they're much less less expensive to produce, obviously because there's no printing cost involved.

And the actual purchase price of e-books is much lower because. You know, the person isn't ordering and they don't have to have a physical book delivered. So that's number four is low cost. And the fifth thing is something that's probably overlooked a little bit. And it's that you get to be creative.

So. You know, you get to really hone your message. You really get to clarify it and be really clear about what it is and, you know, even redefine it if you need to. So that's, that's a huge benefit. And even eventually you can repurpose the content that you have in your book. So. They're just the five benefits of why having a book in your business is a good idea.

Sarah: Yeah, I love all of them. I think my favorite one is definitely the number one, the relationship [00:19:00] because. I do feel like you it's it's, it's like a podcast. But it's even, it's different because you don't hear the voice, obviously, but since it's long forum, it's really like you're, you know, spending depending on the length of the book, but you're spending a few hours.

With you know, with the author and oftentimes I don't know how many people read books like I do in their bed, but oftentimes like you don't really cozy kind of surroundings. And so you feel like really you're getting up close to, to the, the author and yeah, I think that, that makes a huge difference.

And of course, You know, and that depends how much you also bring a view to your book as the author. Just like in humane marketing you know, we bring a lot of us to our marketing. I definitely encourage the listeners. If you are writing a book, do bring parts of you to your book as [00:20:00] well. That's where their relationship really gets deeper.

And like you said, people get to see your values. I think that's, that's so important. Yeah. I wanted to also follow up on the, on the cost. Maybe we can just go a bit deeper there because if you know, if you're completely new to this, like I had no idea what it would cost to, to write a book, whether it's self-published or, or not.

So can you maybe share some insights there for our listeners? 

Siobhan: I am. I'm very happy to do that. So you know, I mentioned the vague statement that you can do it for as much, or as little as you like, really it's all about, you know, the time and the investment that you have that you're willing to make in publishing your book.

So what I always recommend is that you decide on your budget first and then you allocate, you know, particular Not percentages, but you [00:21:00] prioritize things like editing and book cover design, because these are the things that are going to attract or repel your readers. And, you know, one of the biggest bug bears that people have about self-published books is the quality.

So there are. People are getting much better at doing this well, but I think especially in the early years of self, the self publishing industry, you know, there was some people who would just, you know, publish whatever they liked without editing. And I know. Everyone listening would absolutely never think of doing that ever, but it's just something to be mindful of.

And that I emphasize in my courses that I have available is that quality. You really need to prioritize that because again, The book that you're producing represents your standards and your values and your readers will either be attracted or repelled by those. [00:22:00] So but going back to costs, you know, that, like you mentioned, there are agencies that do provide kind of that hybrid publishing model.

They tend to be I would say, you know, literally for me, when I was doing the research around this upwards of $5,000 you know, going up very quickly to, you know, tens of thousands of dollars to 10 tens of thousands of dollars. Yeah, exactly. So you're, you're right there. You know, or you can take the reins and enjoy stepping through the self publishing process yourself as an example, my book you know, I published it in under three months and I didn't say.

A strict budget, but I published it with a budget within a budget of 1500 Australian dollars. So that's around, I'd say probably 800 or 900 us dollars. And that included all of the setup costs my you know, inter [00:23:00] international standard book number. ISBM. Graphic design and editing and all of those things.

And I didn't promote very much though. However, so that's, that's what I advise people to do. I just really wanted to produce this book to just, you know, see if I could do it and see what the process was like. But definitely from my perspective, I think that's that. Fairly inexpensive way to do it.

And I did engage a professional graphic designer who did both the type setting. So setting the type, the font, all of that sort of thing, as you would be aware, Sarah, and the actual design of the book cover and all those sorts of things as well. I went to a professional editor for two of the three editing steps.

So I did my own structural editor. But then the, I actually, sorry, I had two editors. I [00:24:00] neglected to mention that, but I chose to have two different editors for the two different types of editing, which is not a hundred percent necessary, but I did choose to do that. So, you know, there are ways and means you can, you can pull one lever and you can spend more in one area than in another.

But for me, I put most of my funding into the quality aspects of producing the book, because that was the thing that was really crucial to me in producing the book. So does that answer your question 

about 

Sarah: that? And what I would add is you know, there's the quality of the book in terms of. You know, spelling and, and the paper and the design and the formatting.

There's definitely a quality aspect of that. But then there's obviously the quality of the actual. Content, the writing the, how your big idea comes [00:25:00] through, you know, is there any kind of structure in your thoughts? And that to me is, is just as important, if not more than the actual quality in terms of, you know, is there any spelling mistakes you can read a very.

You know, good quality book in terms of yet there's no spelling mistakes, but then it's like all over the place and you're like finished reading the book and you have no idea what you actually just read. So that's why to me, there's also cost related to maybe working with someone like you or, you know, someone I do also kind of work on the big idea.

I don't do the same work as you in terms of. You know how to actually write it, but let's come up with this idea that your book is going to be about so that you have a structure and, you know, you know, there's three chapters. There's going to be three sub [00:26:00] chapters. So there's a good flow in the book because otherwise.

Yeah, I feel that that's really a big part of the, of the, of the quality of the book as well. So maybe you can share a bit what your role is in, in helping your clients with some of that, right? 

Siobhan: Oh, absolutely. So I. I 100% agree. And in fact, it's, it's quite amusing that, you know, I started off speaking with you today, talking about how I remembered when I was a child, you know, what I love to do, and that actually continued, you know, through university.

My major was writing and cultural studies. So you know, I think absolutely you can have a beautifully wrapped gift with nothing in it. You know, it's, it's absolutely, you can definitely have that. But that's not going to engage people. It's not going to excite people, inspire people[00:27:00] help them to see the world differently.

Really the true power of books I believe. And you know, I think in terms of, you know, the structure is one thing, ideas that's where you need to start really is what is, what is, what is this book about? What is this book about? And being super, super clear on what that is and not letting anything else.

Come into the story that isn't part of that big theme that you're writing about. So, you know, I could talk for hours about this. So really it's about, you know, you need to make sure that you spend that time to allow yourself to have the space, to come up with the ideas. And then the big idea, the big theme for the book that is the universal theme.

That's going to connect with your readers. Deeply human level. And yeah. So, you know, makes sense now that I'm speaking on humane [00:28:00] marketing, because I'm talking about the human connection here, but you must have that down. Pat, before you pick up your pen to write, you must have your core idea, you know, and, and that can take a lot of time to get to get right.

To really you know, I think one of the things in Western society in particular is that we don't allow enough stillness to allow those ideas to come in and really marinate on them and, and let them take shape. So, you know, you would know about this because I believe that your, you know, in your book, Everything flows really well.

And you've got a beautiful, like I said to you a little while ago, Sarah, that I felt like I was just sort of sitting, having coffee with you. And you were taking me on this journey and that's exactly how you want to feel when you're reading a book and really deeply connecting with the author. So I would start there.

[00:29:00] Then there's, there comes the most difficult part, I believe, which is actually. Sitting down and writing a really messy first draft and that has to be done. Whether you plan it. Then, or you just write and then restructure divides people into two camps, which are the, the, the, the pantsers people who fly by the seat of their pants and the planners.

And so I have struggled over the years to realize that I, my approach to writing had been pantsing, but I'm actually a life planner. So you know, it's hilarious the way that creativity works. 

Sarah: Yeah. It's funny. When I think about me, I'm an inf J so the J stands for judging, but, but really what it is.

Planning everything. And so that's what my life looks like. And so that's how I wrote my [00:30:00] books and managed to write two books in a year. It really is that structured approach, but I can totally see that it works, that you know, the other camp can work as well. It just depends what your natural superpowers are in.

You know, like more creative approach, that's just how you are wired. Then I don't see anything wrong with that. It's just, it's just different. 

Siobhan: I I need to sort of correct myself a little bit there because you, you always need structure. Your book is always going to need structure. In terms of the method of how you go about it.

Yes. Yeah. There's people are very different. So yeah. Unfortunately for people who don't like structure, it's, you know, it's part of, it's part of writing a book and it's part of what makes, you know, it's like part of constructing a house. You need the [00:31:00] pillars to be standing strongly, to be able to build.

Beautiful framework for people to glide through that house. So you absolutely need structure. Yes. 

Sarah: I find like, it's almost like if you. Naturally structured then you probably won't need as much guidance with that. Maybe you need more kind of mental on blocking, you know, it's like mental guidance, confidence coaching, that kind of support or creativity writing where if you are naturally just creative and you can write for hours, then you need more help with the structure.

Do you agree with 

Siobhan: that? I think it, yeah, it's, it's very individual and, you know, depends on what you, how you best learn to write and also then how you apply that. So, yeah, we're, we're all quite unique in that and it's, it's really about, [00:32:00] you've kind of hit the nail on the head there. So it's about. Working out your best writing life and how you write with inspiration and how you motivate yourself to write the story that's meaningful for your readers and for you.

Because, you know, ultimately you're not going to sit down and spend hours writing something that isn't meaningful for you as well. So I think that's something else. That is kind of overlooked a little bit is just the sheer enjoyment of the process is really important. Like if you don't enjoy writing it or.

You are under no obligation to do it at all. It's really about, you know, is this a medium that lights you up? And you know, if you enjoy reading books and you're entertaining the thought of writing and you have this kind of deep little flame inside that says, write the book, write the book, write the book.

Then [00:33:00] I believe that's absolutely there for a reason. I think what I primarily do is, is really guide people to understanding the process of oh, first of all, accepting. The hardest part of writing is actually sitting down and writing and making it a habit in your life and integrating it into your life.

And I help people with the time management side of that. And and when I say time management, I don't mean, you know, providing them with the schedule, but actually really looking at their values and life priorities and identifying, you know, if writing is one of those, well, how do I. Ref like that, you know, how do I have that reflected in my schedule?

And then, then assisting them with the strategies and tools to be able to integrate it. And I think. You know, I have a couple of courses available. One of them goes through, you know, how to write and finish your first draft so that messy draft process starting to write, making it a habit [00:34:00] and then writing the thing, actually doing it.

And then for people who want to continue on and actually do want to self publish. There's the, there's the author, the unlocked author rather which steps people through the whole process. So it's really about I feel like one of the really big barriers to starting to write and then going on to self publish.

Is the sheet overwhelmed about all of the information that's just available everywhere and trying to sift through that and work out well, this person writes for four hours a day, this person, you know, gets up at 4:00 AM and this person writes at 11:00 PM, which one's right for me. And it is always going to be about what's uniquely, right?

For you as a writer. 

Sarah: So important. Do not think you have to do it. You know, everyone else is telling you more except for them. Yeah. Yeah. So are these [00:35:00] courses the main part of your work, do you also work one-on-one tell us a bit more about how you. 

Siobhan: Yeah. So I, I do have these courses. So, you know, the first one I mentioned is called the writer unlocked and it's actually the book that I produced is the book version of that course.

So I provided it in another medium, which goes back to what I was saying earlier about the great thing about books is that you can repurpose them. But it really is for people who want to. Right. And just need that guidance. And I do have an online community community that people can join for that accountability.

Because I talk a lot about that in the course. And again, it's unique to you. One form of accountability, you know, my form of accountability is not going to work for everybody. So understanding those really. Those really important key parts of taking, writing into your life as a practice, [00:36:00] really. So yeah, so that definitely those, that course, and then the self publishing course, which is the unlocked author.

But I do offer one-on-one services, mentoring services for people who are feeling particularly stuck. I tend to find that you know, one of the main things that happens for all right I've only ever had one author who said that they don't experience it, but is the inner critic and strategies to help people to basically put that thing on mute because it can be done.

It won't go away. Won't go away. But you know, we're all familiar with that mute button now, so we can do that. We can put it on Butte and right. 

Sarah: Nice. Yeah, that's wonderful. I think you also have a free guide that tell us a bit about that and we'll share the link in the show notes. 

Siobhan: Yeah, absolutely.

Thank you. And I think, you know, I say that one of the hardest things is starting to write. I [00:37:00] think the other thing is the idea of time. So particularly for entrepreneurs and solopreneurs, who. Trying to work out. Okay. Well, you know, if you've decided that writing a book is for you or you're thinking about it, then one of the barriers can be, how do I actually fit this into my life?

And so I created the time to write guide and you can get it for free, from bit dot L Y slash time to write guide. And in that guide, you get essentially a way to identify. Where you truly do have time because you do, if you prioritize it and it means something to you and you value it, and there is a schedule in there for you to plan that writing time in I've also provided a few options for you as well.

If you're really struggling with those limiting beliefs which is supported through the unlocked creative podcast as well. So that's also for. 

Sarah: Wonderful. [00:38:00] Yeah. I'm glad you mentioned that the podcast as well, and people can own so well put the link to, to our episode when I was a guest on yours so that people can go check that one out.

So yeah. Thank you so much. Shawan this was delightful. I always have one last question and that is what are you grateful for today? Or this. 

Siobhan: Thank you so much. It's just, first of all I'm grateful for being here on the show with you because I absolutely adore speaking with you. And so that's one thing, but I'll go another one, which is honestly, it's summer here in Australia, and I had this delightful run this morning in the cool air and it was.

Sarah: Nice. Yeah, it's winter here, but it's, it's pretty blessed today as well. Wonderful sunshine. So thank you. Yeah. Thank you for hanging out and, and, and really kind of shining a light on this book publishing [00:39:00] process. I think people will really appreciate the honesty with which we shared here today.

Cause I find that. Like, you know, a lot of these things that are completely new to us, we just have no idea. We have these, maybe these, or we do have some ideas, but often they're wrong. And so hopefully this has helped some listeners to really kind of get a deeper understanding of that process. So thank you so much for 

Siobhan: sharing.

Shawan. Thank you. Thank you. It's a pleasure.

Jason Marc Campbell is the author of the upcoming book Selling with Love. He interviews thought leaders from around the world on topics of Leadership, Teambuilding, Communication, Productivity and so much more. He is a public speaker who's shared the stage with the likes of Gary V, Jason Silva, Vishen Lakhiani, Lisa Nichols, and more. You'll quickly recognize him through his high energy and passion for making a positive impact in people's lives.

His mission is all about teaching companies to care more. As businesses have so much power in the capitalist world, if we can educate businesses to take on more responsibility on how they sell, how they market, how they treat their employees and even how they invest their money, we start shifting the very planet into a better place for all.

In this episode, you'll learn selling with love, and...

• What the opposite of 'selling with love is'
• How to humanize the cold out reach and start with offering value
• How to make automation and digitalization work for us, but in a humane way
• How this love fest fits into capitalism
• and so much more.

Jason's Resources

 

Jason's Website

Selling with Love Podcast

Download Jason's Selling with Love Cheatsheet

Connect with Jason on:

LinkedIn

Instagram

Facebook

YouTube

 

Sarah's Resources

Watch this episode on Youtube

(FREE) Sarah's One Page Marketing Plan

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(FREE) The Humane Business Manifesto

(FREE) Gentle Confidence Mini-Course

Marketing Like We're Human - Sarah's book

The Humane Marketing Circle

Authentic & Fair Pricing Mini-Course

Podcast Show Notes

Email Sarah at [email protected]

Thanks for listening!

 

After you listen, check out Humane Business Manifesto, an invitation to belong to a movement of people who do business the humane and gentle way and disrupt the current marketing paradigm. You can download it for free at this page. There's no opt-in. Just an instant download.

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Warmly,

Sarah

Imperfect Transcript of the show

Sarah: [00:00:00] Hi, Jason. So good to speak to you again because we've met before and here we have the opportunity to talk again. Delighted to 

Jason Marc: have. It's good to see you again. And yes, it is not our first conversation, not our last, neither, but it's an interesting one in the. 

Sarah: Yeah, indeed. Last time we talked, you were to just before your book launch, and now you just told me offline.

You're like right in the middle of it. It's coming out on Valentine's day. If I remember, well, it's easy to remember, but. Yeah. So must be exciting times for you. 

Jason Marc: There's an interesting one on that. It's the day after Valentine's day. So I was planning for Valentine's day, but apparently with the the company where I'm doing launches, they do it on Tuesdays.

So I th I said, maybe that's a, maybe that's a good thing. I think maybe Valentine's day should remain. You know, personal love, but maybe the day after Valentine's they can be business love, you know, that's what we're, that's what we're going to be talking about. 

Sarah: [00:01:00] That's a good story. It's like, yeah, it's not, you know, the cheesy kind of Valentine's day, it's the day after.

So we always have to look for those stories, right? Yeah. So let's get right into it. Had this question that I want to kind of throw at you to start with what's the opposite to you you know, from selling would love what's the opposite of that. And maybe it's some of what we're seeing now. You tell me, what do you see?

Jason Marc: That's a, that's a very interesting place to start and, you know, I find it very funny, the way that I structure my book, I talk about how to sell with love in the second part of the book, but everything in the first part of the. And my goal is not even to get people to love seller and to understand how to sell with love.

I'm just trying to make a case for people to like selling. And that's already a big step because you know, more often than none, we are exposed to types of sales that might not necessarily be done from a place of love. And what I've done is I've [00:02:00] actually broken it down into four different levels. Of how you sell and it's based on emotion.

So if I'm going to explain what selling with love, isn't I'll explain the definition so you can understand where these brackets go in. Whichever one you find interesting we can deeper into, but the way I define sales is an energy exchange between conscious beings. And the element of selling with love is when you know, what you offer is so much more than what you ask in return.

The emotion of love is what balances the. And so I call sales and energy exchange because whether it's a product or service money's being exchanged, time is being invested. It's all energy. And then I also speak about emotions, being energy in motion, being a part of that energy exchange as well. We always have a feeling in every sale and sometimes it makes us feel good.

Sometimes it makes us feel bad. And so if I'm not selling from love, I speak of the three other major energies that we sell from, which are shame and guilt blocking. We're at that point, you're just terrified of selling. You probably don't [00:03:00] encounter these often as a buyer, because these are people that are going to run away from any sales opportunity.

Cause it's just, it doesn't feel good. You're afraid of it. And so the, the best example would be the store clerk in in, in a retail store that just runs away when a client comes in, right. It's just like, oh God, I don't want to be a salesperson. So as a buyer, we don't see them as a seller. If we have, you know, blocks around selling, this is one that we might identify with the second level.

No wonder we would associate with a negative sales that we witnessed the most, which is what I call the fear and pride paradox. This is a place where you can learn processes in sales that make you very effective at selling you. You kind of learn to have the gift of the gab or you, you, you start being someone that can be considered a slick salesperson.

But you don't take responsibility for the impact of the sales you make. Now, this can make you a very effective sales person in the current paradigm of the world, or at least maybe a little older paradigm, maybe a few years ago. There is this birth that is happening. I mean, Sarah, we were talking about this on our episode [00:04:00] together.

There's a movement. That's pushing everybody towards the understanding that selling with love, selling from the heart. So I'm like, we're human. This is really where the world is heading. And so this idea is going to become much more mainstream because we're realizing that the old way isn't working, it's leaving.

Mental health issues, addiction issues, because you realize that there is an energy exchange and you're burying that burden. And a lot of times we want to numb ourselves from that reality. And I think that's what mostly happens when you're at this fear pride paradox. And then the third emotion is what I call the rational sabotage and this really quick overview of all these categories and sense rational sabotage is when you feel like you're trying to do the best, but you're not willing to take responsibility or.

A sense of leadership of guiding the buyer towards the buying process. Instead, you're trying to give the responsibility to the buyer because you're afraid of that responsibility. And so you're not coming from the place I'm going to come back to that. Well, those are your big ones. You've got shame, guilt, you've got fear pride, and you got rational [00:05:00] sabotage.

And I feel like the majority of your, your listeners might be in that last category since we're trying to do our best, but we might not be aware that the top tier still exists. 

Sarah: I do want to circle back to you know, the initial question about what is it that we're seeing now, and I assume that's kind of what you prompted that prompted you to write the book.

So tell us a little bit about. Yeah. The reason for you saying, Hey, there needs to be a book called selling would love, so, so yeah, take us there. And I assume that we'll start with, well, what we're seeing now in, or like you named it before the old paradigm, maybe of sales. 

Jason Marc: Yeah. So, I mean, for me there was a bit of an event that happened in my life.

And this was in my early twenties, very ambitious and. I wanted to make money. And I ended up buying one of these real estate investment seminar coaching packages. This was [00:06:00] like $20,000. And I got taken with some of my best friends. We partnered together. We put all our funds together and we wanted to buy this real estate program is telling us that we're going to give us everything, take us by the hand guarantee our success, you know, and we went down, we were in Florida and then they.

One of their friends come over. They said, yeah, this is my cousin. He's going to fund every deal that you're going to buy. We're like what? This is incredible. There was a really cool opportunity. Maybe this was back in 2010, you know, the downturn happened in America as Canadians. We could buy these for really cheaper dollar was actually stronger than the U S.

And so it's a rare occurrence. Right? Long story short is they threw us into a, you know, a recording studio to create testimonials of our experience in the moment those were done, that cousin that said I was going to fund the deal disappear. And and we were just left with, you know, our pants down and they ran those ads across Canada's infomercials.

And, you know, for me, I, you know, we were left trying to figure out what to do with these deals. The good news is we figured it out and it wasn't a fun experience. I mean, I went personally through a lot of dark [00:07:00] times, you know, Find medication, get some consultations with a psychiatrist. There's a, it was a, it was a very depressive time for me, a lot of stress trying to figure this out.

And I just don't wish that on anybody else. And I have witnessed that there's so many people that can use sales as a tool. Speaking about the fear and pear and pride paradox at that level, people can be very powerful and they can manipulate people. They can take advantage of people. And the reason this book is being birthed is because one of the biggest contributions I've wanted to made after that experience is I don't want to see a world where you have.

I'll use the professional term, douchebag, marketers, and salespeople that can take advantage of people. And so if I can create the tools and share with them our way of looking at sales, that empowers ethical businesses to be able to use those tools, to understand the language that's necessary for people to understand their value.

Then I get to push the world into a direction that I want. 

Sarah: I love, I'm glad I asked that question because it really opened up that personal story. And [00:08:00] man, it must've been a dark night of the soul. It gives isn't that, you know, Yeah, we were seeing these ads on YouTube. And, and, and, and can I ask if there was some part of shame related to that as well?

I, I hear that whenever we, we fall into such traps and can happen to anybody, there's like the shame after, you know, think why did this happen to me? 

Jason Marc: Yeah, there was, and you know, I had brought in my best friends, you know, like I convinced my friends and I remember that it was one of my friends who was kind of a.

The one that he hadn't been in the room to witness the seminar. So he wasn't drinking the Kool-Aid. He wasn't under the spell and he was just sitting there. Why do we need to pay 20 grand? Why don't we take that and put that into the assets that we're trying to acquire? You know, and I was like, no, you know, at this time there's so much uncertainty and this is where sales can be dangerous.

And especially with what you're seeing on ads now, like whether that's NFT crypto's and all these opportunities get rich and you're watching, it's almost at an [00:09:00] accelerated pace. Now. I wish I could say things got much better. I think there's a big movement towards selling with love and from the heart.

And you know, like we're humans, but there's an equally. Sign that's also still taken advantage of people. Yeah. You're like, wow, I want to get into this. And if someone could only tell me that they're going to hold my hand and make everything be good and I can pay for that insurance. God, is it comforting?

Because we're in a world there's so many choices to make. If someone tells us this is the choice you can make and everything will be okay. Oh, we want to believe it with all our soul. You're 

Sarah: right. It's just, it's this time of uncertainty. And that's always, when, when you know, the typical sales people take advantage and at the same time you had there.

Partly doing it for their own survival, but only to a very certain degree. And then it's just manipulation and abuse. So yeah. Let's get comfortable. Survival. Yeah, exactly. So it's say I can defend it to, you know, [00:10:00] it's it, they definitely have a skill. I always. That it's like, yeah, you have a really good skill at manipulating people, but yeah.

Could you use that skill for something else? That would be amazing. If you could apply that skill to, like you said, make the place, the world a better place. That would be much better use of that skill. I want to kind of dive into the nitty gritty of, you know, some of the things maybe that we see Happening right now.

So for me, what comes up is cold outreach, you know you know, that I have a past, as LinkedIn consultants still do some LinkedIn work. And even though we've been repeating for years and years don't do cold outreach with, with, you know, third party tools. It is still thriving. And so I was curious.

Your thoughts are about cold outreach. Is that something that can be done with love or [00:11:00] is there, is that just a complete taboo and there should be enough. 

Jason Marc: It's it's interesting. Cause I actually am working with some people on teaching them how to use tools to do prospecting it's it's one of the most intimidating parts of being a salesperson is having a pipeline being fed with new and new leads.

And I was looking and I was quite fascinated by the tools that do exist. I was like, oh my God. Scary levels of automation, especially on LinkedIn. Right. You know, I I'll, I'll share one experience that I've been doing actually this week. And, you know, I was mentioning to you before the call that I'm doing a lot of promotion for the book right now.

And so one of the things that I know I want to do both for my podcast and to get myself featured on other people's podcasts is I saw a list of a hundred of the most influential sales leaders. And they all had their LinkedIn account there. And I started scanning the listen, I'd say for 90% of the people on these.

I was like, wow, I love to bring them on the show. And this is where, you know, cold outreach I would consider is anybody. You're just sending a [00:12:00] message. But I think that there's degrees of temperature to the outreach and yeah, there are some that could be considered less personal, but knowing that we're in an attention economy, everybody's getting a ton of messages.

And if you really have a message that, you know, will be valuable for people, you've done some research for some relevant. Then yeah, I would find ways to be a bit more efficient to do it mind you, in my case, I didn't know these tools existed. So I did my reach-outs manually. I see all the people on that list.

I went to connect with them. I add a note and the note comes with a position of giving value before just trying to take. Right. Right. And I think the method of how you outreach can differ based on which position you're in. But in my case was like, if you, we had connected before that, but I think you were on that list and I would have reached out to you at that time.

But I reached out. But I would say, Hey Sarah, my name is Jason. I have a podcast. I have already a significant amount of downloads, some great guests that came on and I'd love to have you come as well. Is there an email that I can send you more details? And I've done that with a very standardized message for a lot of people, because [00:13:00] there was 90 of them I needed to reach out to.

And I also have limited time. I need to be efficient too. And for the majority of the people that I reached out to, I got a positive response, right. Is this considered completely cold outreach. I feel like the fact that I've actually targeted, it was a very specific group. I knew they were sales leaders, and I knew there were relevancies of bringing them at least on a platform that I could bring value to them by bringing them to my audience.

And I think that's something that's really cool that we can do today. Like regardless of if you're just getting started, you're an experienced sales profession. There are ways that you can actually generate content, whether that's in a form of a podcast, whether that's writing content, whether that's a YouTube channel, but having a medium where you're continuously contributing actually becomes a magnet for attracting some of the people you're looking to do business with.

And I think that becomes a bit more effective in the way of. 

Sarah: Yeah, because it's human to want to be on, you know, have the attention of someone else. So that's kind of the human [00:14:00] ego, I guess also speaking, saying, Hey, I'm important. Yeah. I want to be on that podcast. So yeah, that's what I always teach.

In, in the LinkedIn outreach, it's like, don't ask for anything in these first messages, because. They don't know you, they own no, whether you're an authority or, or not. And it just comes over as super needy. If you ask, you know, straight away for even their time, often people say, yeah, but I'm giving them a free session with me.

I'm like, yeah. But you're asking for their time and time is super precious. And we don't realize that that's a big ask. Actually, it's, it's maybe a bigger ask than, you know, here's a link. Do you want to look at that? So, yeah, I, I appreciate you sharing this. And then of course the automation part, what kind of was semi-automated here is B is that you use the same message all the time, but you still selected the people.

And that I [00:15:00] think is where the danger is. If you use some of these third-party tools and then maybe you outsource this to a, a virtual assistant. They don't know if you notice person or not kind of relationship. And so it's just so embarrassing when you receive, like, for me I receive another message from another LinkedIn consultant.

Hey, do you want me to help you with LinkedIn? Have you looked at my LinkedIn profile and it's just like, it's hurting the reputation and, and, and that, you know yes, you would think, oh, that happens to one person out of a thousand. Well, it matters. It really matters. So, so yeah, I'm so glad you're, you're saying yes, we need to be an efficient and I'm all for that, but let's be very careful on, you know, And how we're doing that.

And, and again humanizing that approach, because I think by now people can sniff out an automated message [00:16:00] from a mile away. And so we really want to be careful with. 

Jason Marc: Oh, the, the thing with automation you're right. It comes with a huge risk because you know, you're not fully aware of what that nomination is exactly doing, but at the same time, you know, automation just makes more of you happen faster.

And so if you, but the thing is, is if you don't have. Your core offer something of value, something that actually, like you said, a link that can honor people's time that can give them genuine value in the first interactions, if you're going and using these tools and asking, then now you're actually, you know, I don't want to go to as far as to say making a fool out of yourself, but you're alienating a lot of potential prospects at an accelerated rate.

So. Be careful. In my case, you know, I ended up doing the manual connections and, you know, there was a couple that I realized like, oh one of them I had already interviewed, oh, another one, I was already an inactive conversation. So at least I could make a filter from that. If I had a [00:17:00] tool who knows where that would have, I 

Sarah: imagine how embarrassing that you just talked to them and now you're sending this automated message.

Yeah. And then I've seen that happen a lot with these tools. So I stopped recommending them to clients a long time ago. Yeah. You talk about seven touch points in, in sales. I think I heard you talk about it on another podcast. Is that. 

Jason Marc: Well, it's not something I speak about. It was it was some research that was done that on average you'd have some, yeah.

It's kind of 

Sarah: the general knowledge, right? Yeah. So, so, so maybe tell us what you think about, you know, seven touchpoints I write about in my book that today it's more like 77. I kind of joke. It's not 77, but it's a lot more. So I'm curious what you think about the whole. You know, sales path or funnel, however you want to call it.

How many touch points do we really 

Jason Marc: need? Yeah. [00:18:00] Well, one thing I'd love to disclose is my lack of genuine experience when it comes to the B2B selling side, I've done a lot more work in the B to C side. So I just want to make sure that's clear with people and the way that I do do any kind of B2B, I find it so fascinating because you have tools like LinkedIn, you have tools like instant.

And you have all their company websites. I can use a tool like hunter.io to find people's emails. So if I'm going for an account, that's worth a significant amount of money. There's so many touch points that I can do as a salesperson to interact with the existing members of that organization. There's a, there's a brilliant story about somebody who wanted to actually to get a job.

At mine valley where I used to work. And it was a, it a really hard place to get a job for. So, and you know, the process of getting a job is a sales process where you're trying to nail one client. Right. And this person was so interesting. They wanted to work in marketing. So what they do, they found. And they, they ran and this was back before GDPR rules.

Okay. But they were able to upload the emails [00:19:00] of every employee at mind valley and then ran a video ad on Facebook for everyone that was on there saying like, Hey, you work for mine valley. I just want you to know my applications in the pipeline. And I'm targeting you to tell you that I'm going to be an incredible individual.

So if you're in a meeting with this. Who was the CEO at a time or any of the higher managers remember to talk to them about Clemen this is the guy. And if you click here, you'll see my resume and you can go directly. That came to CML. Wow. He became the CMO and, you know, he was like, you know, when you want to get somebody's attention, if you, should you take the maneuvers that, and this is something I speak about, actually, my book, because one of the loves of selling that I speak about is loving the process of selling.

And there's an interesting thing that I do as a litmus test, which is the kind of magician with pulling a rabbit out of a hat. So that's like the standard magic trick. But imagine the magician like has a rabbit. Rabbit disappears. And people are like, wow, that's amazing. And then he's like, cause everybody don't know how I did the trick.

And then when [00:20:00] people are like, sure, and he's like, well, I killed the rabbit. And then people will be like, oh my God, why didn't you do that? And then they'd be shocked. And now who cares about the manager, you did something wrong, right? Well, when it comes to the process of selling. You should imagine yourself having to disclose it to the people that you're selling to about what exactly did you use?

This goes back to your automation tool. If you're like, yeah. I actually use an automation tool and then I was just trying to get the attention of anybody. You'd be like, oh, I don't feel too good about that. 

Sarah: That's awesome. I love that. Yeah. I love that analogy had, did rapid. It's a bit gross, 

Jason Marc: but okay. But you remember it.

But, you know, I digress because I kind of I lost the thread of the question we were asking, but I do know that, you know, when you're looking, when, when you are on a B2B level, I think that there's, there's always an extra effort you can make when you're targeting a specific company. And this is not something about automation, and this is what makes you stand out because everybody's looking for the cheapest.

But if you're doing the research or going [00:21:00] the extra mile, I mean, there's this concept of which you know, one of his name was Dan Walsh, Nick, I believe edgy conversations or edgy sales. He was consulting us and actually he was telling a story. When I was interviewing him and his story was the fact that he wanted to get a client.

So he's, the CEO is a woman, a leader in the organization. She was the CEO. And so he actually mailed to her a like beautiful decorative sword. So as a sword that actually had an inscription in it from another female leader. And then on, it was a letter just saying like, just so you know, that you're a warrior in this world and we recognize your power.

She was like, wow. And there was such a personal gift, but that made him stand out over every other salesperson that yes. What he was an automated tool followed up three times, never personal. That's a much better touch point. So I'm not saying we should be buying weapons, but I'm saying if you can do something to stand out when you have a B2B.

Yeah, you can go the extra mile when you've really done the research. [00:22:00] 

Sarah: It sounds similar to a conversation. I had the Adam on the podcast where we talked about moving the pay line. And so this concept was This was the idea of having again, creating experiences with your ideal client before they ever pay you.

Right? So it's almost like you're saying the touch points make them into experiences and not just sales messages, you know, sales emails and things like that. So, you know, getting a sword or whatever, getting flowers is an experience rather than just another sales message. 

Jason Marc: And when you, when you speak on the B2C side, which is where I've done a lot of the work that I do, you know, with online marketing now, which I actually feel like it's more like direct response, online sales, the marketing element, you know, the branding that falls more.

The marketing side, but most of what people are doing when you're talking about conversion events, like webinar funnels, I find they're more sales [00:23:00] events, right? But they're nurturing the content or the contact by providing content. And so people come to a page, they opt in, you give them value, you invite them to an event.

You actually educate the buyer. And this is the key of any sales presentation is how do you actually educate the buyer? And these touch points can be so multiple. And speaking to my experience that I've had at pine belt, he was so fascinating. We had people that, you know, would opt into, let's say a free class in June, and they wouldn't make a purchase until December, but we kept him into the pipeline.

We kept them being exposed to other classes they would attend. And you can see a lot of this tracking that happens in the system. You'd see like, wow, some people can be in, in a funnel from 45 days to up to six months. And that's only the point where they'll decide, well, you know what? These people have been consistent.

I know exactly what I'm getting from their marketing experience. And I forget who said this quote, but I mean, the only experience your customer has with you before they become a customer is your marketing. And so if you're providing amazing touch points and a beautiful [00:24:00] experience for all your marketing, now they're getting some confidence of what they're gonna experience when they buy the product.

Right. Exactly. 

Sarah: Before you mentioned the love of process. I would love for you to go a bit deeper into that and explain what this means to you and yeah. How it could look like 

Jason Marc: when it comes to doing sales, the process of selling, right? A lot of people might have some hesitations around selling, maybe feeling that some tactics could feel manipulative.

Un-empathetic inhumane, right? What I often talk about when you say love, the process of selling is kind of a reframing that I like to do around all the tools and techniques that exist. Of course, there's the magic rabbit litmus test. That's kind of like your, your no-go zone, right? We, we want to keep the bunnies alive, but what I change when people feel like they're stem tactics, that could be manipulative.

I say, actually, what happens when you start using techniques and [00:25:00] sales that make you more effective at selling is actually you being empathy. Because you're actually learning the language that is necessary for people to understand the true value that you're trying to provide for them. And so, yeah, run the webinar, which has specific scripts in them that helps you make conversions and educates at the same time.

Yeah. Send that email that actually allows people to buy right after, because you know, it has a conversion rate. That's higher. Yeah. Reach out to the client 15 minutes after they fill out an inquiry form, because they'll be like, wow, that was such a rapid response, which increases your conversion. All of these things that you can build into your process of selling that makes people go wow.

Well guess what? These are amazing processes you can put in place and it makes people feel like you understand them. And that you're actually trying to help them make that purchase decision. It's the same way that, you know, we have a friend let's say that, you know, they're they made a new year's resolution where in the start of the new year.

So maybe a lot of us I've made those resolutions, maybe going to the gym is one of those. And maybe you have an accountability friend. [00:26:00] And maybe that friend shows up to you and says, come on, let's go to the gym and you don't feel like it. And that friend pushes you, nags you, and then finally say, literally drags you out of bed to go to the gym with them.

And then once you've done your gym session, you're like, God, thank you. I feel good because you've done an action that's in your highest interest. And that's really the energy that you should be putting into your sales process. Because if you know that the moment they purchase, they're going to be left with an experience that goes, wow.

Thank you for pushing you over that one. Then guess what? You can love the process of selling that. 

Sarah: Hmm. I love how you explained that. I have to admit this idea of process to me. I don't know what it's, I guess it's the word itself. It makes me think of my seven P's of humane marketing in the old 7:00 PM.

There was the word process. And I kicked that out and I said, that's outdated. We need more partnership. That's a P that we need. And so maybe I just thought while you were talking, I'm like, oh, that's why I [00:27:00] don't like the word process, but the way you explained it now feels like, yeah, it is humane and there is obviously a, an interest, a self-interest to, you know, make the sale, make the win for yourself, but there's also definitely an interest for the client and serving them in a way that is best for them.

I guess, process also to me kind of means like, oh, let's use all these tools and I think that's where maybe we went wrong. I see a lot of the DS guru, marketers and salespeople. They, they just abuse all the tools and processes in order to make more sales. Right? 

Jason Marc: Yeah. I mean, for me, I'm a, I'm a tech geek, so I love the tools.

But again, like I said earlier, as these tools in and of itself are quite innocent, but the ways that we use them can be. You know, manipulative, they didn't pass the test. Right. When I look at the process of sales, like if let's say you have a big mission, you want to make a big [00:28:00] impact and there's thousands of people knocking at your door.

Well, process becomes the liberator to be able to serve more people, right? Because now you can actually give them a way that they can serve themselves. They can actually do it in a more automated way. Now you're not holding back anybody who is looking for a solution that you would never be able to provide.

If you couldn't give them the attention because your time would be completely taken away. And this, again, reflects more into the B to C world because you often have to reach volume. So yeah, you have emails and yeah, you have all this automation and it creates a layer of separation, but at the same time, there's an understanding.

It's like if I walk into an apple store, And sometimes I do, you know, I could be picky. I maybe I want a little more service, but it's still a pretty good someone comes up. I say, oh, I want to pick this up. They tap a few buttons. Someone else pops up and says, we went to get your product. And it was like, everything's a process it's dominated.

And it leaves you with. Hmm. I think that's where process can be really, really powerful. 

Sarah: Yeah. And [00:29:00] I love that as well. There's like this Swiss sufficiency and me, he was like, ah, I love processes. And the tools, I think the, the trick with the tools is we need to, because they got a bad rep, right. I'm thinking of, you know, all the pop-ups and the automated emails.

So we need to re-explain. To our customers, our clients, that these tool, it's not the tool that is mean and bad and manipulative, the tool can be used in a humane, loving way. So we need to almost like reeducate our customers that just because we're using tools, doesn't make us bad salespeople or bad people.

Jason Marc: No. I, I think of my own book as it's coming out. There's times that I judge my own book because I don't speak a lot about specific processes. And I mean, you know, give it two years. Every process is going to change. Every technology is going to change. So it's like I didn't go too much into depth because the essence is a bit of the manifesto that I want to bring forward.

It's how do I get [00:30:00] people to step into number one? The possibility of selling with love does exist. And number two, it's highly. Right. It's highly effective because now once you have that anchored first, then you can start seeking the tools that will support the vision of the impact that you want to make.

And so I love the fact that you also have your manifestor, which is all about selling, like we're human marketing, like you're human. If you can ingrain those values first, then you can let people realize that they've went to get at Lisa a certain consciousness certification before being given tools of radical and massive.

Yeah, these tools are powerful. Being a salesperson is powerful. I always, I always talk about how, you know, a sales person is a mover of energy. Everything that's created in this world is the result of a sale. And so what's the level of consciousness are we operating in when we're making these sales and we're moving this energy.

This is the minimum education that is required before we give these tools of mass. Yeah, so 

Sarah: true. And, and with, with this [00:31:00] power comes responsibility. And so that's why we need to first have this consciousness and realize, oh, okay, this is what it's possible. Let me do it the right way and let me do it with love.

Yeah. So good. So I want to ask you the question about, you know, obviously the. This love Fest. It sounds great for my hippie soul. How does it fit into capitalism? 

Jason Marc: That's a good question, because I've been on some other podcasts that are not as welcoming of the idea of love and sales. Are you kidding me?

That sounds Rue. And you know, I come from a background in personal growth. So of course I was trying to be a little edgy with putting those two words together. They come with a big contrast. Right. And I've seen it be translated in ways that could be, you know, when I speak to, let's say more, I don't know if I should use the word gentle audience members or people that are more receptive to the love.

They, they they're like, [00:32:00] yeah. Okay. I can get, I can rally around love, but selling is like, Ooh, you know, words are really powerful. And so I'll often substitute the word selling with communication. And then it just makes it easier to digest until I actually say, now, if we are selling in there right now, it's an easier way.

So with the love side I've seen him be translated into other terms such as selling with confidence and not. And then what I do is a distinction between confidence, not. I'm going to use the tools and techniques to appear confidence. But instead I say, no, what I'm teaching you is that to truly sell with confidence is you work on the competencies that are necessary for you to sell with confidence.

And it requires a product, an offer that truly serves. And so I'll change words to be a bit more accepted, but I've been surprised on its accessibility. I think, you know, 20, 22 is a year that people are now maybe really. Some things have not been working as well. And we want to see if there's a new way of doing things and what I've noticed for my more capital.[00:33:00] 

Audience members is when I really dig down on the fear, pride paradox, the, the side where you're making sales without taking responsibility and the mental effects that that has why so many people that are, you know, hardcore salespeople and are, are struggling with, you know, wanting to numb themselves from the reality of the energy exchange that happens through every.

You know, why do we have the stereotypes of, you know, a stockbroker that's, you know, addicted to drugs, maybe sex addiction, maybe gambling, but just anything to take away, the presence that we have and the, the feeling that we have to kind of, you know, put it aside. And we usually, when I start talking about these issues, it becomes a bit more resonating with the audience and saying, Well, maybe there is a better way.

And I'm hoping that with the framework that I introduced, it's going to get people to light up and realize, wow, there is definitely a better way and it works. 

Sarah: So what is your hope with this book? 

Jason Marc: Well, as I mentioned, the reason I wrote is because [00:34:00] I want to reduce to eliminate the place for douchebag marketing and sales to exist in the world.

And so if I, if I could see this happening, I, I truly feel. When people sell from a place of love, there's a by-product of love through every transaction. Right? And I think that actually translates into a guidance. And so for every single sale that is made from this energy, you start actually solving genuine problems.

The. And if the companies you're helping you truly believe in the impact, the ripple effect of you helping them, like if you're providing services for a company and you start being selective about the companies you decide to serve, because the impact of them growing them, being more effective is actually making the world a better place.

If we become much more responsible for the ripples of every sale we make, we start genuinely solving problems. So we become more. We start shaping the world into a way that we want to see it become more. And yeah, we're going to have clashes of values based on our beliefs, but at the same time, if we're all coming from a place of love and you know, the second love that I [00:35:00] talk about in my prom and my framework is loving the buyer well, loving the buyer, the way to do that is to understand.

And so we start understanding each other more. And I think we need a lot of that today when we seem to be alienating ourselves. So this is the shift I'm hoping to promote, and that's why. Wonderful. 

Sarah: I personally can't wait to read it. So it's going to be out on February 15th. Go ahead and buy it. Yeah. Tell us where people can find it, where they can find out more about you 

Jason Marc: chase.

Yeah. The easiest thing is to go to selling with love.com. That's where you can find information about the podcast, the book, and there's going to be some cool bonuses during the launch time. You can always connect directly with me. Jason Mark Campbell. Mark is with a C whether that's on LinkedIn or on Instagram send me a direct message told me you heard me on this podcast.

I'd love to hear your feedback. I will also say, if you are connecting with me on LinkedIn, don't use the automated tool and add a note, add a note to your connection request. I have so many [00:36:00] requests with people that don't add a note. I don't accept it, but that would be my, my tactical tip is just add the note and just say, Hey, let's do you're on a podcast.

We'd love to connect. Then it's an easy yes for me. And that's already a Testament of, you know, what happens when you start actually caring a bit realizing there's a human on the other side, and you'll be surprised on who you can connect with. 

Sarah: Wonderful. I always have one last question. And that is what are you grateful for today or this week?

Jason? 

Jason Marc: I will say I'm grateful for my partner. She's a loving individual. And a matter of fact, we were on date. Today. And I realized we had our interview and she gave him and she's like, Jason, your message is important. So go into the interview, I'll be waiting, I'll be patient. And so I'm very, very grateful for my supportive partner and I'm very grateful that we had a chance to do some amazing interview.

Sarah: Nice. Yeah. Tell her we thank her for liberating you for 40 minutes and yeah. Thank you so much for taking the time and having this [00:37:00] conversation. You rock. 

Jason Marc: It was my pleasure, Sarah. Thanks for having.

Today I'm talking to Tami Simon about how to bring your authentic self into your business. Tami runs Sounds True, a big publishing company in the spiritual and personal development niche.

In 1985, at 22 years of age, Tami Simon founded Sounds True, a multi-media publishing company dedicated to disseminating spiritual wisdom. As a pioneer in mindful living and the conscious business movement, she focuses on leading with authenticity and heart. Tami hosts a popular weekly podcast called "Insights at the Edge," where she has interviewed many of today's leading spiritual teachers, delving deeply into their discoveries and personal experiences on their own journeys. With Sounds True, she has released the audio program "Being True: What Matters Most in Work, Life, and Love." Tami lives with her wife of nearly twenty years, Julie M. Kramer and their two spoodles, Raspberry and Bula in Boulder, Colorado.

In this episode, you'll learn about how to bring your authentic self into your business, and...

 

• How someone's voice contains their soul
• How people told Tami it's as if she had 5 green heads when she was talking about spirituality in business when she started in 1985
• Today's movement of conscious capitalism and awareness of interdependence
• How knowing who you are is always a fresh discovery, it's ever changing
• You can't have authentic connections mask to mask. Knock, knock: I'd like to know the real you!
• The words authenticity and genuineness
• Tami's thoughts on Conscious Marketing and the importance of truth and trust (if it's a strategy, it's weak)
• Her program Inner MBA, which she co-created with LinkedIn, and Inner Wisdom 2.0
• and so much more.

Tami's Resources

 

Tami's Website

Insights at The Edge Podcast

Connect with Sounds True on:

YouTube

Instagram

Facebook

 

Sarah's Resources

Watch this episode on Youtube

(FREE) Sarah's One Page Marketing Plan

(FREE) Sarah Suggests Newsletter

(FREE) The Humane Business Manifesto

(FREE) Gentle Confidence Mini-Course

Marketing Like We're Human - Sarah's book

The Humane Marketing Circle

Authentic & Fair Pricing Mini-Course

Podcast Show Notes

Email Sarah at [email protected]

Thanks for listening!

 

After you listen, check out Humane Business Manifesto, an invitation to belong to a movement of people who do business the humane and gentle way and disrupt the current marketing paradigm. You can download it for free at this page. There's no opt-in. Just an instant download.

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Imperfect Transcript of the show

Sarah: [00:00:00] Hi, Tammy. So good to have you on the podcast today. 

Tami: Great to be 

Sarah: with you. Wonderful. You are like one of these voices that I could listen to all day long. You have this just like, I dunno. It like it's anchored and it's calm. I was just like, oh, I feel so good when I hear your voice. Do you ever get that?

Like, do other 

Tami: people tell you, well, I'm glad you like it. Not all people respond positively. I have received a mail that says things like, sounds like you work at a mortuary in your, have you smoked too much hash before you start speaking? So there's, you know, there's a full spectrum of responses. But I also enjoy your voice, Sarah.

It's a sweet and gentle. So it's. Yeah, we like each other's voices. What a great way to start. 

Sarah: Yeah. And it's funny. Cause just on my walk today, I heard this on another podcast that I think there's a book about it. That the [00:01:00] S the voice contains the soul of the person. And I, I tend to agree with that.

There's a lot of things that you can probably tell out of someone's voice. So it's interesting, especially when. Podcasting day and age, you know, we really find like we get to know someone by just listening to them. 

Tami: Sure. And I think some people are more sensitive. And have that kind of voice intuition where you can really feel and sense a lot of someone's presence from their voice.

Some people are really sensitive to that sounds like you're one of those people. Yeah. Yeah. I, 

Sarah: yeah. I identify as an HSP, so maybe that's part of it. Yeah. So we're not here to talk about voice or voice coaching or anything like that. I'd like to start in 1985, because that's when you started your, your business, your company sounds true.

And I'm just kind of like blown away, but by that idea that you started. Back in the [00:02:00] day and already then it had to do with spirituality. And so I'm curious whether back then, and you can talk, you know, tell us about the story, but, but the question is like, if back then already. You kind of had the feeling sometimes that you were ahead of your age, like, like, did this feel like you are going against the grain or were you, was there places where you just walked in and you were welcomed with open arms?

Tami: Okay. Well, you know, I wasn't really looking so much at the outer landscape at that point in my life. I was just 21 years of age and I was deeply connected to. With my inner process, which was a process that had a lot of desperation and anguish that was fueling it. And the desperation and anguish came from having dropped out of college.

Even though I loved learning that's my [00:03:00] nature is to learn, learn, learn, but there was something about the academic environment. It wasn't the kind of learning. That was a vital to me, the kind of learning that was vital to me had to do with direct experience and discovery and the inner journey of knowing what happens when we die.

Is there any way to discover that and how could I know in my own experience, those kinds of questions. So I had a lot of existential. Foment inside of me that I was in touch with that brought me out of academia and brought me into, okay. Is there a way for me to actually use this love of learning? To make a contribution in the lives of other people and possibly even have a job.

So that was kind of what was going on inside of me. And there was no ready-made seat at the table. This was far before the whole idea [00:04:00] of mindfulness and meditation was popular, but I was coming from the inside wanting to make a contribution using this love of learning. That is so intrinsic to me. And 

Sarah: it was it always, because now you talk a lot about spirituality in life and work.

I think that is when I look at some other spiritual teachers that. How I see you differently that you have this focus also on the professional lives that we all or most of us lead. Was that always a priority or was it first like, no, let me get to know myself and let, let me kind of spread the word about that first.

Tami: Well, I never had. Active interest in business. As a young person, I was interested in something, you know, I thought spiritual wisdom. Social change and art, something like that altogether business. [00:05:00] I saw some other kind of thing, but yet I quickly discovered that I am a team player. I like working with other people and that as a solo operator, I could only get so much done.

I could only have so much impact. I could only reach so many people and I wanted to have a greater reach. And so before you knew it, I was working with the. And before you knew it, that team grew. And then it became really important to me that the products and the process of our work were coherent, that the process would reflect the values that were embedded in the products.

And so before you knew it, there. Doing a lot of reflection and then writing and speaking about the whole topic of, well, okay. How do we make the workplace a congruent environment with the greatest spiritual principles of, you know, the, the [00:06:00] mystics of all times? Who weren't applying their writing and thinking to a for-profit business, but we can, and we must, if we're going to feel whole inside ourselves as sounds true as an operation.

So that's kind of how it evolved. 

Sarah: So if you compare then, or even, you know, the nineties to today, Do you see more readiness in the business world to look at these topics and work with these topics? 

Tami: Do you see? Sure, for sure. For sure. For sure. For sure. You know, back in the beginning of. I was I was on my own, you know, I was talking to myself and what I mean, that was, it was, you know, there was not a lot of interest at all.

In fact, I remember talking to various people in business. I remember one person and he said, oh my God, it's like, you have five green heads as you're describing. And I'm like, I don't have 500. I just have one kind of, [00:07:00] you know but I mean, it was so foreign to most people, the whole notion of conscious capitalism, B Corp's this was not this wasn't part of the landscape.

Now. I feel that there's a whole mood. Happening worldwide, where people are saying, you know, we have to do business differently. We have to address social problems through our business. Our business has to be a force that brings people up in our, the people who work with us, our communities, et cetera. So I feel part of a movement now.

And that's why. Yeah. And 

Sarah: you must be thinking, finally, you're waking up to this. I've been doing this for ages. Yeah. 

Tami: Well, you know, it's interesting. The inner MBA is a program that sounds true has produced in partnership with LinkedIn and wisdom 2.0. And when we had our first graduating class, Lynne twist came.

[00:08:00] To gave the commencement speech and Lynne twist is the founder of the soul of money Institute. And here I'm getting, to my point, she talked about how 45 years ago. So I started sounds true. 36 and a half years ago, but 45 years ago, she heard a speech by Buckminster fuller. Who said 50 years from now, we will see all of the institutions of our world starting to reflect the deep knowing of interdependence.

That's just coming into our conscious awareness now, but it's going to take 50 years before that starts. Revolutionizing and changing the structures, the societal structures, the structures of education and politics and business that have been created that have been built on a different paradigm, [00:09:00] a paradigm of the separate individual that, you know, leader trying to get their, you know, whatever financial reward who's not.

Tuned and not creating from a deep knowing of our interdependence. And I think that early spiritual insight that I had, that was part of the very beginning of my life in my twenties. I knew that another person was an aspect of my greater self, that the people I was working with, the customers, the authors, that we were all part of this web of.

Interdependencies really, you could call it a web of being, and I wanted our business to reflect the honoring of that web. Now I think that knowing that knowing of our interdependence is something that many, many, many people. Are in touch with and can articulate. And they want to design social structures, [00:10:00] business organizations that are true to it that reflect those values that honor our interdependence.

Sarah: It feels really good to hear that. And kind of also this knowing that, you know, it was always meant to be maybe that we had to go through this evolution and. Yeah. How these things often go break down in order to break through and build from scratch. At the same time, it feels like there's a lot of work ahead of us still.

Like we're in the middle of 

Tami: the change. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. And no guarantee that as a species. Yeah, we'll come out the other side successful, no guarantee at all. And yet what great work to be doing together. How awesome let's go. Yeah. What else? 

Sarah: What other choice do we have? This is there's only way, one way forward.

Right? So I I'm featuring this chat under my seven PS of humane marketing. When [00:11:00] I looked at marketing and the 7:00 PM. Kind of re invented them. And the second P of that humane marketing Mandalah stands for personal power. And so I and that for us has a lot to do with the, in their work. And I know you know, But that's a big focus for you as well.

And we talked a bit about the evolution of business, but I'm curious, you strike me as the person who kind of always knew, you know, who you are and what your, what your values are, but I'm sure as a 21 year old you know, 20 years later or even more now. There has been some evolution for you as well.

So we'll just to share the Tami evolutionary 

Tami: well, knowing who you are, what your values are what's needed. What's wanted now in my experience, that is always a fresh discovery. It's not like, oh, check the [00:12:00] box. I found my purpose. We're done. Doesn't work that way in my life. In my life. There's always a new.

Upflow a new arising, a new asking of what's next what's now what's needed. Now what's needed. Now for me, what I was doing previously, as fulfilling as that was, that was then that was that something different is needed now. And can I be in dialogue and responsive to that? So for me, this notion of.

Personal power. It comes from being authentically in touch with what is emerging deep in our own bodily, knowing bodily experience, deepen our soul. And that soul is communicating in present time with new instructions all the time. [00:13:00] And you know, it's not, it's not always. It's not always like, oh yeah, I got this.

It's like, oh, wow. This is unknown. Never been here before. Huh? I'm going to have to really slow down and listen and see what's next. And 

Sarah: I think what's new is that. Making this a priority in the business context where before, you know some people were on a spiritual path, but that had nothing to do with business.

Like we weren't addressing any of that in the business context. So why, why now? Why is it so important for leaders to also do this in their 

Tami: work? Well, okay. I think the whole notion that there are all these different means. Like there's the me, who's the business me. And then there's the knee who said, so my cushion, who's the spiritual me.

And then there's the me who, you know, I mean, of course there are different aspects of ourself, but in my experience, [00:14:00] I want to be a whole unified person. I don't put a mask on. To go to work. I'm not putting a mask on to have this conversation with you. And I think what has evolved is this whole notion that there's a price we need to pay.

And the price we have to pay is that of putting on some costume that isn't, who we really are in order to be successful at work. People are discarding that I want to be one integrated self who is authentic. And I think people are discarding that because it doesn't work for us at a inner level. And I also think other people are like, Hey, knock, knock.

I'd like to know the real. Who's the real you, I want to relate authentic person to authentic person. I know one of our core values at sounds true is actually authentic connection. We value that and you can't have authentic connection. You know, mask to mask, [00:15:00] you have to have it heart to heart. And I think there's a longing for that because it's so fulfilling to work with other people and have authentic connection, be how you're doing the work together.

And of course our customers, customers who are on the spiritual journey, who are on this journey of deep wellbeing, they want us as a company to connect authentically with them. They don't want to be just like sold something from the outside. They want to know why from our hearts does this creation matter.

So we have to be able to articulate that. And you can't articulate that if you're not in your authenticity, connecting to the authentic journey and needs of your. Yeah. 

Sarah: Yeah. The mask has a whole, you know, really important meaning for, for my listeners as well, because I actually shared the journey of taking off my own mask, having grown up [00:16:00] in this online marketing world where pretty much anybody, every.

Whereas the mask. And so I, you know, grew up thinking that's what you do and you show up with a mask. And so part of that meant, you know, my hippie upbringing story, no, that doesn't belong here. That's not, you know, I'm not gonna share that anywhere. And so taking off the mask feels just like, like you say, so liberating.

The other thing I want to mention is the word authentic authenticity dot, you know, it's a great word, but unfortunately, if we don't really understand it, it's just one of these words that we're using together with vulnerability. That's just kind of become almost like a marketing thing. And so I think what you explained is like, yes, authenticity.

And I just want to highlight, again, also this inner work that's actually what brings [00:17:00] you to the authenticity, 

Tami: right? Because sure. Well, yeah. Well, let's talk about, let's talk about it for a moment, because of course authenticity, you know, any word can get destroyed by the culture when it gets used too much to me in so many different things and so many.

Levels, but let's go for a different word for a moment, which is genuineness. I really liked that word being genuine. And once again, it's just a word, but what's underneath it and I think what's underneath it. And this gets to the point of vulnerability too, is first of all, sharing your bodily, knowing. So you can't, first of all, share your bodily knowing unless you're in touch.

So, first of all, you have to be able to be in touch with what's actually going on. How are you feeling right now? Really, really not like, oh, this is what I think Sarah wants to hear. Or this is, this is the truth of how I'm feeling. So first of all, you have to be in [00:18:00] touch with your bottle. Knowing, and that means in touch with your emotions.

So, because your emotions are showing up in your body. And so is it okay to say. You know I feel really sad about that, or I feel really vulnerable because there's a sense of loss for me right now going on in my life. And you know, for example, just to share, you were talking about like personal power and purpose, and I thought to myself, wow.

You know, I'm in a transitional period actually in my life. Is that okay? You know, complish so much, it should be like, Pristine and done. No, and that's okay. Because I think there becomes this recognition and I think this is a really deep point that all of our experience is sacred. All of it, even the hard experiences.

So it's not just this, you know, terrific accomplishment, achiever, business, self. [00:19:00] No, it's everything we're going through is a sacred uprising in our experience. And then when we know that. We're making space for that in other people, for their genuine journey. So this is all so important to me because it brings forth our human wholeness at work.

We're not just these, you know, winners all the time. That's not who we are as people. We're we're whole people with complex inner lives. And so it gets more into like, what's really going on with people underneath that term, you know, authenticity. Now the interesting thing is we can smell it out in each other.

We can smell it 

Sarah: now more than ever. If we weren't able before now we definitely are. 

Tami: Yeah, we can sense it. We can sense people who are [00:20:00] posing, you know, they're posing, they're using authenticity as part of their, you know, whatever that's different than meeting a real person with all of their messy.

Blood guts and glory right there in front of you and you can feel it. 

Sarah: So how does that translate into marketing? Because. I know you, you, you know, I was part of the, in their MBA, you have this program called conscious marketing and here we're on the humane marketing podcast. So it's really important to me also to kind of talk about these things in, in marketing.

So where would you say is the parallel here? 

Tami: Sure. Well, one of the big insights for me related to marketing had to do when I had an old. Mindset that was broken open. And the mindset I had was you [00:21:00] make the product over here and then you market it. So we make these great teaching programs and then we have to market them.

So what the insight was that, oh, actually take all of that teaching. And put it into the communication about what the product is. There's one thing going on here, which is you are sharing these teachings with the world, what you care the most about you are sharing with other people, you're baking it into the product and you're baking it into how you talk about the.

Oh, my God, it's not a separate thing. And then I got really excited and I was like, oh, this is simply about communicating teachings in a different way than the way they're in, coded in the program itself. It's about talking about it. And then it's like, oh, okay. I want to share. What's really most meaningful to me.[00:22:00] 

Why did I make this program in the first place? There was a deep motivation behind it. Talk about. 

Sarah: Yeah, we talk a lot about worldview over here. So, so really making your worldview part of your marketing and, and, you know, for you, that means a world where spirituality and business go hand in hand and, and for others, their worldview is, you know, has to do with climate crisis or whatever it is.

Bring that, bring more of that. That vision and that passion into your marketing? I think that's what, what yeah, it makes it authentic again, that word, but, but that's where you can tell that it's real. Another thing that I often say is that. More explanations, like, and because marketing has gotten a bad draft, so we need to actually be extra careful to explain everything we do.

So, [00:23:00] as an example, if you are doing a, you know, a one day sale or something like that, well, explain why the real reason. And, you know, a lot of explanation, I think in order to regain that trust that probably be lost in 

Tami: marketing. Well, one thing to say is, you know, so I like to write and as someone who likes to write, I can sometimes notice when I'm writing and something's not quite working.

I'll say to myself, go deeper. What is it? You actually need to say right now, what is, what is the soul force behind this thing? Tell more of the truth, lay it out more like you're on the surface right now. You're on the surface. Go deeper, go deeper, go deeper. And I noticed that. I write and it really hits it's because I've come right.

DIR I've been willing to share what's really that deep truth inside of [00:24:00] myself. So I would say the same thing about marketing and also this notion of authenticity that there are these levels and it's. So can you peel off that level? Can you peel off the other level peel? What is actually that thing way deep inside of you?

That's the actual underneath truth. Say that. 

Sarah: Yeah. And that's another thing I kind of had on my bullet point list is, is the word truth, because it's in your, you know, in your company name. So that must be like your favorite word and you're kind of like your leading value. So, so tell us how that looks like in your company, in your marketing and kind of how you see it evolve in the business world 

Tami: as well.

Sure. Well, you know, just like I was saying, you can kind of sniff out whether someone's like, how real are they really? Like? You can kind of feel it. I think it's also, when someone's speaking, you can [00:25:00] kind of sniff out, are they, are they telling me the truth right now? Like what's going on? What's what's really happening here.

And I think one of the things I noticed is that. When people come forward with, what's deeply true for them. I have a relaxation, I feel relaxed. I'm like, oh, okay. That's what's going on here. Cause I don't have to figure it out. I don't have to be like, what's really happening. Like why are they really, you know, a LA LA LA, just tell me.

And so I think it's a great gift to your. Customers. And that sense you could say, it's like talking to your partners, that's the interdependent whole, you're sharing with another part of yourself what's really going on here, why you're really doing it. So I don't, I don't know if that helps, but I, you know, the name of sounds true is sounds true because we talked about at the beginning of our conversation about [00:26:00] being auditorially sensitive and I realized that I'm very sensitive.

To the sound of. When someone is speaking, if they're speaking the truth and that I experience it like music, it's so beautiful to me. I just want to listen to it all day long and I think you can feel that too, in marketing materials, you can just sense it. You're like, oh, they're not giving, it's not a snow job here.

They're just speaking directly. Yeah. Directly 

Sarah: into anything. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It reminds me of my walks in nature. You just know what you see is what what's true. You know, there's nothing to change. Your mind gets a break because it doesn't have to try to figure out what's not working and what needs fixing.

No, it's all just perfect as it is. And it's true the way, you know, nature is [00:27:00] always true and, and right. So yeah, that's what comes up for me. 

Tami: Yeah. You know, Sarah. Reflecting on as we were talking kind of cause once again, it's about this willingness to listen and deeper and deeper levels to things is that if we're not comfortable making money, hi, I enjoy making money.

When I make money, it allows me to pay my staff really well. It allows me to live an abundant and beautiful lifestyle. That's enriched with beauty and opportunities and a sense of freedom. It allows me to reinvest in the growth of our company and we can reach more people and be more expansive. I enjoy and need sounds true to be a company that makes money.

If you're not comfortable with that in your business, then you can't also be comfortable communicating [00:28:00] with the values of your products, because you're always doing this dance around a weird relationship with money. So I would say one thing is get really clear. About having a healthy relationship with money where you enjoy and need to make it, but that doesn't make you greedy.

It doesn't mean you're not deeply interested in seeing everyone rise. And in fact, you're baking into your organization, ways that you can either have a nonprofit arm like we do at sounds true or other ways that you're giving back to the community. And supporting people who don't have the financial resources to perhaps access your products.

I think of one of the CEO's who's part of the inner MBA who started Bombus socks for every pair of socks, they said. They give one to a homeless person. They've given away millions of pairs of socks. It was part of his [00:29:00] original inspiration. And so he's able to talk about buying Bomba socks and giving socks to homeless people all at the same time.

And he can be in his heart around it because he's congruent deep inside about what they're trying to do with the business and how those sales. Promote a world where we're all. Rising together and where the money from the businesses going. So I think we have to clear that all up so we can be transparent about it.

Yeah. 

Sarah: Yeah. I find it interesting that you bring up the topic of money because it's obviously a sensitive topic to you know I know for my listeners, for myself and I you know, Inner work in included in that journey with that with money. And in, in my book selling like we're human, it is, you know, the first step to have a real conversation with your money and money [00:30:00] stories so that you can relax and then really just have a human conversation around.

Investing in your services and not get all 10 stopped would diminish the money, comes into the, into the game. So, so, so essential and, and you're right. And, and. What, what you see, unfortunately, still in some of the business stuff is, is de individualism where, where it's like, yeah, we need to make more money and become millionaires and blah, blah, blah.

But what's missing there is, is the third win, which is the collective and the planet. Right. And you're clearly saying, well, no, it has to be. If we make more money first, yes. We need to be in abundance ourselves so that we can support ourselves. But then let's like you say, re re rise. Is there a rise or raise to get her rise together?

All of us and, and we can only do that if we first look after ourselves. [00:31:00] 

Tami: Yeah. So I think it's really important for people. To put into their original product design, how the, the funds raised are going to be of benefit to other people who don't have access to the same financial resources. And if you put that in, in the beginning, then you can stand in what you're doing in, in a certain kind of way, and stand in the generosity.

Of what you're doing as you market your product. Would you 

Sarah: also say that, of course, that makes the founder or the owner feel good? Would you also say given the evolution of business that, that is going to be a key differentiator for the customers? Meaning, you know, the gen C? 

Tami: Sure. But I think the key is you can't just do a.[00:32:00] 

You can't just do anything because you think, oh, this is now going to appeal to you. You have to be real about it. Like give some real money away from your profits, like actually do it. Not just some kind of performative thing. So anything, anything can become performative and you know, the good news is that people sniff it out, which is a theme that we've been talking about in this conversation.

And so it has to be because actually. That's something you value, it matters to you because it is part of that realization. It's a realization it's not negotiable. It's not a strategy. If it's a strategy, it's. If it's because you really want this group of people who are connected to what you do to benefit from your work and otherwise they wouldn't have access and it's really alive for you, then it will also be alive for your [00:33:00] customers.

And they'll say, 

Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. And, and as a leader of a bigger business, of course, maybe the founder has to look at these values, but then the whole team I'm sure your whole team is aligned, but all of that, because that's, again, it works from the inside out. 

Tami: Yeah. And it's important. You mentioned it's important to potentially gen Z customers.

It's really important to employees, you know, here in the United States at this point in the pandemic, we're going through something. People are calling the great resignation where so many people are leaving. Organizational life and saying, yeah, it's just not worth it. I think I'm just going to go off on my own and do something or other, there's no way I'm going to keep working for this organization, you know?

And no. And so your organization has to be doing something truly meaningful, truly meaningful for people to say. Yeah. I want to give you my time and energy at the. [00:34:00] And 

Sarah: I think it's actually also the employees who will hold the company or the management accountable that it's the truth and that they're actually doing it and implementing and measuring, you know, what, whatever they're saying so that they're actually walking their talk.

So, yeah. So good. Wow. Tell us more about SoundsTrue and the, in their MBA and where people can listen to your amazing podcast and find out more about. 

Tami: Sure. Well, come check us out at sounds true. Dot com. All of our resources are there. Our inner MBA program is a nine month program. We're in our second cohort.

The next cohort won't start until September of 2022, but we also have a generous scholarship program. That's part of the inner MBA, because our goal is to make training of interdependent. Connecting with that [00:35:00] soul force and having it be imbued throughout every aspect of our business to make that kind of training as widely accessible as possible.

So yeah. Come check us [email protected]. Thank you. Yeah, I 

Sarah: have two more questions if you make sure. Yeah. Where do you see and how do you see business evolve over the next decade?

Tami: Hmm. Well, that's a big question. I think that the awareness of climate change as a business issue is something that we're starting to hear many brilliant entrepreneurs address. And thank goodness, because I'm not convinced that we'll have enough solutions fast than. From political action, but from creative entrepreneurs who are motivated to solve all kinds of problems and who are brilliant at it, let's [00:36:00] go.

And so I think we're going to see a lot more of investment dollars and a lot more creative entrepreneur. Looking to solve climate change from all kinds of things, whether it's carbon architecture or you know, innovations that work with different kinds of algae. I don't know. I think there's so many opportunities there.

So that's one thing. I also think this whole notion that. Business is a place where we get to grow and evolve as human beings and where we must grow and evolve. That business is an incubator for the deep human journey of adult development, adult development, meaning we're learning all kinds of. Of greater skills than we learned in our original college training about emotional intelligence about deep listening skills, all of this, I think business will be seen as an [00:37:00] incubator for the highest levels of adult development.

So I also think we're going to experience that. I think that more and more businesses will. Understand that we're living in an age of transparency and that means that you can't hide stuff. So don't, don't do things you need to hide because you can't. So I think that's also going to become more and more.

I also think what you're working on, which is authenticity in marketing, whatever language. I think people are just so sick of being sold. Anything. They don't want it anymore. I'm done. You know, I remember at one point I was talking to a mentor I work with and I was talking about a presentation and how I wished I had said something.

Better that I wasn't as clear as I could have been. And she said to me, Tammy, people don't need perfection. Right. You know what, they, they just need people to be real, like where you real. And I was like, oh yeah, I was [00:38:00] actually, and I was like, I can do that every day. I can do that every time. Right? Yeah.

That's not that hard. I was like, perfect. It's hard. She's like, people don't need perfect. They're done with it, all the Polish, all the everything. So I also think there's a hunger. There's just a hunger for that. Type of genuine presentation. 

Sarah: I love, I love everything you said, and I can't wait for that day.

I think the only thing I would add is, is community and more partnerships companies not working in silos, but working together, open source sharing. No, it's the opposite of individualism. Capitalism. Right. So 

Tami: that's a great thing to add. Yes. 

Sarah: Yeah. I said I had two questions. So the last question is what are you grateful for today or this week?

Tami: Well, I immediately see my family. [00:39:00] So I've seen my wife, Julie and our two furry children raspberry and Bula. And then I feel grateful. I see the faces of many of the people I work with at sounds true. And many of the authors that I've been in conversation with recently, I feel a lot of gratitude for the.

Quite honestly, I also felt a sense of gratitude for feel an inner feeling of goodness and purity that I can sense inside myself. And it's not like it's my goodness or my butt like that. That's part of the essence of who we are. As humans that we have this opportunity to connect with something inside, inside our hearts.

That's good and pure.

Wonderful. 

Sarah: I can't thank you enough for being a guest on the humane [00:40:00] marketing podcast. It's been an absolute delight. Thank you so much for being here. 

Tami: Yeah. Thank you for all your good work and your sincerity. Thank you.

Fractional Integrator, Casey Gromer, joins me today to have a conversation on the difference between mission, vision and passion. Casey is a 20-year business and marketing expert. As an MBA (and mom to littles), she is widely regarded as a go-to source for visionary women entrepreneurs who dream of building businesses to run without them. She is passionate about creating a more equitable landscape for women in business and working to remove common barriers that hold them back.

Casey hosts Female Founders Breaking Boundaries, encouraging women to forgo stale, inflexible business advice and adopt more workable ways of running their business while still achieving success.

As founder and Fractional Integrator at SHE-Suite Boutique, Casey currently serves women entrepreneurs in an advisory role. Under her leadership, clients have scaled their businesses while working less and spending more time doing things they love. The industries she's supported include retail, e-commerce, service businesses, and manufacturing.

In this episode, you'll learn about the difference between mission, vision and passion, and...

 

• the big words like vision , passion and mission and how they are all different
• how to work towards your vision
• where goals come in
• how to bring the big vision into the marketing
• Casey's book 'A Fresh Wave of Marketing'
• and much more

Casey's Resources

 

Casey's Website

Download Casey's Company Persona - Purpose, Focus, And Values Template

Female Founders Breaking Boundaries Podcast

Connect with Casey on:

LinkedIn

Facebook

 

Sarah's Resources

Watch this episode on Youtube

(FREE) Sarah's One Page Marketing Plan

(FREE) Sarah Suggests Newsletter

(FREE) The Humane Business Manifesto

(FREE) Gentle Confidence Mini-Course

Marketing Like We're Human - Sarah's book

The Humane Marketing Circle

Authentic & Fair Pricing Mini-Course

Podcast Show Notes

Email Sarah at [email protected]

Thanks for listening!

 

After you listen, check out Humane Business Manifesto, an invitation to belong to a movement of people who do business the humane and gentle way and disrupt the current marketing paradigm. You can download it for free at this page. There's no opt-in. Just an instant download.

Are you enjoying the podcast?  The Humane Marketing show is listener-supported—I'd love for you to become an active supporter of the show and join the Humane Marketing Circle. You will be invited to a private monthly Q&A call with me and fellow Humane Marketers -  a safe zone to hang out with like-minded conscious entrepreneurs and help each other build our business and grow our impact.  — I'd love for you to join us! Learn more at humane.marketing/circle

Don't forget to subscribe to the show on iTunes or on Android to get notified for all my future shows and why not sign up for my weekly(ish) "Sarah Suggests Saturdays", a round-up of best practices, tools I use, books I read, podcasts, and other resources.

Raise your hand and join the Humane Business Revolution.

Warmly,

Sarah

Imperfect Transcript of the show

Sarah: [00:00:00] [00:01:00] [00:02:00] [00:03:00] [00:04:00] [00:05:00] Hi, Casey. Good to speak to you today. I'm looking forward to our conversation after the conversation. We just, 

Casey: sometimes those initial conversations are the most interesting. Sometimes I'm like, I wish we would have hit record. 

Sarah: Exactly. We need to kind of do a, you know, bonus conversation. Yeah. [00:06:00] Release that after.

But yeah, today we're going to be talking about. Difference between vision and passion. You kind of made this, your expertise in a way and help you know, female business owners with that 

Casey: bigger vision. And, 

Sarah: and so, yeah, I want to start right there because it does, those are two big words that we 

Casey: hear a lot.

Sarah: But in fact, maybe we haven't actually stopped to think about, well, what do they mean? And what's the difference between the two. So can you enlighten us? 

Casey: What's the difference? Yeah. Okay. Well, so first of all, The work I do. We talk a lot about working with a visionary business owners and for anyone who has not heard this term, I'm, what's called a fractional integrator and a fractional integrator comes into a business.

With the business owner or the visionary business owner. And our job is [00:07:00] to take someone who is a very big picture idea person with lots of passion. And I, and I like a forward thinking, you know, we're tagging creative personality types, those people, traditionally, aren't very organized and they're not they're a little bit scattered and they are amazing.

And what I started to notice is that I was taking calls from people who would say they wanted to work with an integrator. And so we would start diving into the work, which one of the first things that we do when we start working together is to create what's called the business blueprint. And part of that business blueprint is articulating your vision, your mission and your values.

And one of the things I recognized. In some cases, we were having a really hard time getting to an actual vision. And so I noticed that there is a difference [00:08:00] in some cases between an actual vision and just having a passion for something. And so. One of the differences between having a vision and having a passion is that a vision is typically something, first of all, is forward thinking, right?

So you're looking out into the future at something. And when you have a vision, one of the ways, you know, it's a vision is your. I see the future. And you're able to tangibly describe what that future looks like after you are successful. So a vision traditionally involves changing something. So maybe we're changing.

You know, we're changing our customers or we're changing our community. We're changing the world, the planet, whatever we're making some sort of change to the way. Things operate. And a lot of times that vision might have some sort of social responsibility attached to it or making people's lives easier.

And in any case, that's what a vision is. [00:09:00] Now. When someone comes to me, And has a hard time articulating what that future vision looks like. That's when I know we have a passion and a passion can be something that we feel really strongly about, and we just maybe don't really know or understand where we want that to go.

And that doesn't mean it's bad, or you don't have a business. It just means that your approach to the business is a little bit different. Versus, you know, if we have a vision and we, we definitely have like, there's an end goal in sight. And as the integrator, we're D we're defining what those steps are to achieving that end goal.

And that's how we operate. And with a passion, we don't necessarily, we still have goals a little bit, but they're less aligned to what the future looks like. I'm more aligned to what it looks like achieving this passion that you have. I 

Sarah: love that. So it's really like vision is the big picture, future oriented and kind of tied to maybe something external of your [00:10:00] business, not just internal or personal.

Absolutely. And then the passion. Yeah. You know what we usually understand on their passion. It's just something that you're very passionate about. And it doesn't mean that it's attached to the future or, or to something external that, and then you also brought in this other word, which is mission. And I think I might've been confusing vision with missions.

It what's the difference between vision and mission and how. 

Casey: You know, and they're so closely tied together that it can I do that even still sometimes. And you'll know a vision because there is a future state. So when you're articulating a vision, you're describing like, you're, you're like what's a movie I saw recently where it was a future movie, but you're basically describing the state of the world as it will be.

Yeah, 10 years from now or 20 [00:11:00] years from now, or a hundred years from now, or whenever, you know, that vision plays out. And a mission is more of, this is the focus that my company has to achieve that vision. And if I can use an example of really. I'll use my own vision. For example, we are very centered on lifting up women in leadership.

We want more women leading companies. We want more women leading countries. We want more voices in that place of leadership. And so one of the one of the things I wrote down in my. My description of what my future would look like is hello, Madam president. So in the United States, we have never had a woman leading the country or a woman president.

And so if you think about your mission and achieving that, My company, she, sweet boutique is not directly going to be responsible for putting a woman in the president's seat. Like that's not our focus. However, the [00:12:00] work that we are doing is going to change the way that people view women and women's voices.

So what is our focus going to be to make that happen? And so our focus is really on leading. Women owned businesses. And so that is how we are going to be lifting up women's voices in leadership and making it more normalized to see a woman leading a seven or eight figure business. 

Sarah: I love that. Yeah.

That, that makes a lot of sense. That kind of difference. I can't guarantee that I won't mix them up again, but it feels like I understood passion really well. Mission and vision. Yeah. I see the future in the vision because that, you know, it's kind of in the word where the mission is like, well, what am I going to do?

It's kind of like a more next steps for vision 

Casey: is oriented thing. Yeah. And don't feel bad because you know [00:13:00] what, that still happens to me sometimes too. Cause I'll be talking to a client and I'll have to stop and think. Are we talking like vision? Are we talking mission here? And the most important thing is not that it's like, I mean, there's, there's a lot of gray area here.

And I think the most important thing is the purpose of having a mission and vision is to keep everyone, keep you focused and moving in the right direction and keep your team focused and moving in the right direction. So as long as those vision and mission gives your team members a clear sense of here's what we're here to accomplish.

And here's how we're going to go about doing that. Then I think, you know, let's not split hairs. That's a cliche term that we use. 

Sarah: Talk about that then, because once we have the. Do we need those, you know, typical vision or mission statements that everybody talks about and are these helpful for companies or what's the 

Casey: alternative?

Yeah. Yes, they are helpful. And I think we [00:14:00] need to, a lot of us need to change the way we're thinking about vision and mission. What I find is a lot of companies articulated vision and mission and they, and they articulate it in a way that is It's like a marketing tool for them. So I I'm, you know, you can probably understand that where, oh, if we have like this vision and mission that people really connect with or, you know, it resonates with them and that's not, I mean, that should be that your secondary motive for creating a vision and mission.

So the primary motive is internal based. We, so we use something called the company persona and the company personally. Basically your vision, mission and values, and the importance of having these as creating context for your team members so that they are looking at your business as if it is a person, right.

We're trying to create personal, personalized, or personified qualities in the business. So that as [00:15:00] we're thinking. About making decisions or talking on behalf of the company, we're thinking in our head, like, who is this company as a person? What do they think? What do they believe? What do they value? How do they respond?

How do they act? How do they interact? And so it, it really brings the company to life and that's the importance of having a vision and a mission is you're, you're changing from thinking. As a company or thinking in terms of intangible thinking, in terms of things like profits or money or dollars or sales or customers in your thinking, like what, you know, like what is this person and what is our goal in life?

Yeah. 

Sarah: And I'm sure that applies, even if you're a one person company, it just becomes much more personal. Yes. Yeah. And another big 

Casey: word that just came up for me is purpose. [00:16:00] Yeah. 

Sarah: That probably all fits in there. Where else? 

Casey: Well, right. Yeah. We use purpose and vision interchangeably. So sometimes I use purpose because I think it's easy.

Like it's a word that we use more often and we understand it, like in our minds, A lot of sense, like, oh, I know what purpose is, purpose means this. And so if you think of your vision in terms of this is your purpose in life, then it makes a lot more sense. And the same thing goes for mission is we use, sometimes we use mission and focus.

Interchangeably. So once you know your purpose, then what is your company's focus? Like how are you narrowing down what it is you're delivering to the customer or to the audience that is kind of leading you or contributing to the achievement of your purpose in some way. 

Sarah: So before you mentioned this kind of gimmicky approach to vision and mission statements where you just [00:17:00] put it out on your website and then you're like, okay, check.

We did that. And so now are, you know, website visitors can see that we have such a good vision and mission. And so you would actually not recommend to have it on 

Casey: the website at all, or what. No for sure. I mean, for sure you can put it on the website. I'm just suggesting that. Instead of looking at your vision and mission statement through the lens of how are people going to perceive me?

You look at it through the lens of what are we looking to achieve. So do that first, right? Because you have to be able to articulate to your teams and to your people. Okay. what is my purpose here? What am I doing before? You're going out to customers. And the other reason that this is really important is that your, what you're putting out to your customers has to align with what you're doing as a team.

So if your vision says [00:18:00] one thing, but your actions. Don't align with what that vision is. There's a big disconnect and you're actually going to create a bad experience for customers. And, you know, they're going to be like, well, this isn't, this, isn't what the company is telling me about themselves. And so I don't trust them anymore.

Yeah. The 

Sarah: same thing applies to like these sustainability messages. Everybody is kind of just throwing on their websites now without actually, you know, having a team dedicated to it or doing the real work and being at home. 

Casey: Held accountable as well. So you can't do that. Otherwise it 

Sarah: just doesn't, you know, 

Casey: you 

Sarah: can't even, even for me now, this phrase, you know, we want to change the world.

I'm like, yeah. 

Casey: We all do, but show 

Sarah: me, what are you doing? You know, I think it's going to be in the [00:19:00] next 10 years. I think it's going to be much more people want to actually see actions, not just here, beautiful phrases. Right. And 

Casey: that's where that deeper 

Sarah: work is, is 

Casey: required. Right. You know, and that's one of the differences in how, how I approach this pro.

This tool, this process and how a lot of companies are approaching it. And one of the things I mentioned earlier is context, and you can have a vision and mission, right? And it can be a great vision and mission, but there has to be used some context behind it, because if you've ever gone to a company's website or if you've ever worked for another company and they're like, Hey, okay, we've checked the box.

Here's our vision. And you look at that vision and, and you think to yourself, That's awesome. I have no idea what that means. So it's missing a lot of context. And so the company, you, even if it's just you working with yourself, are you working with a couple of [00:20:00] people? That context is really important because we have to understand the story behind.

What does this mean? Why is this important? How does this look in. Operation. Right. And so that's where the vision, mission and values work really hard together because the vision articulate the future, the mission describes what you're doing to contribute to the achievement of that vision. And the values is here's how we are living this out day to day.

So you mentioned, you know, the sustain stainable company. I had a very similar situation with a client where we had these sustainability values, but yet when we're going to make decisions about the business, we weren't prioritizing, like when a team member would prioritize something sustainable, it would get shot down because of cost or, you know, implementation or execution.

And that's great. And we have to find a different way to contextualize [00:21:00] what we mean by sustainability. Let's spell it. What does sustainability mean to us and how are we able to deliver on that versus just saying we're going to deliver. Yeah. 

Sarah: Yeah. So true. You have to first understand it before you can make it your vision or your mission.

Right? Because sustainability is one of these terms that we just kind of use left and right. Right. 

Casey: Yeah. Everybody has their own definition. So, absolutely. And your values is something that you're in your employees or your team members are going to be using, or you should be using every day to make decisions.

Does this decision align with my values? If it doesn't do I need to change my values or do I need to do. My decision. 

Sarah: Yeah. So before you mentioned the, that you're working with people who are not the, you know, how did you call 

Casey: it integrators? Yeah. Yeah. So they're more like, okay, 

Sarah: they have the big [00:22:00] passion.

Of course they have probably the vision. 

Casey: And so how you help them with the 

Sarah: vision and the, and the values, the mission. Do you still work with a business plan or where does it then become. Programmatic and let's roll our sleeves back 

Casey: to work. Yeah. Yes. So the very first thing is, you know, that vision, mission values and the, we toss some other things in there, like knowing who your target market is and understanding your value proposition.

Those are all very important too. And that's all great. And we need to have that. And then kind of where the breakdown is just like, how do we turn this into. Reality, how do we make stuff happen? And so that's where the business plan comes in and the vision is an integral part to that because the vision is like, okay, if this, if 10 years from now, we're looking at, you know, 50% less carbon emissions, I'm making up a vision statement.

Now, [00:23:00] 50% less carbon emissions. And we're looking at biodegradable plastics. And we're looking at whatever that, you know, vision is that that looks like. The plan is. What's the first thing, what's the first thing we need to do to make that happen. And so you break that down into, you know, you're not going to go from zero to 10 years from now in a quarter.

So we break it down into an annual goal or an annual plan and then a quarterly plan. And, and the hardest part I think is just figuring out what those next small steps are to help you get closer to. That fishing that's where the business plan comes in. Yeah. 

Sarah: And it sounds like the small steps we call them goals.

Right. And sometimes we confuse our goal with our vision. Yeah. It's again, it's not the same. The goals are really this small and probably more pragmatic steps. It's like, here's [00:24:00] what we need to, and oftentimes what we use there as the smart, you know, they have to be measured. Somehow so that we can actually say, yeah, we achieved this 

Casey: goal 

Sarah: or not where the vision, well, right now we don't know if we're going to achieve this vision because it's 

Casey: in the future.

Right. Great. And for, and for some business owners, especially if you're a very visionary business owner, That, that is the hard part. I can't see that path. I can see the future, but I can't see how I'm getting there. And that's when it's kind of helpful to partner with somebody who sees the world a little bit differently than you so they can say, all right, so here's where you need to focus next.

Yeah. 

Sarah: Yeah. I think, I can't remember the, the, the book where the. He, I think it's an author who talks about this difference between the visionary and the integrator. 

Casey: There's a 

Sarah: [00:25:00] about that, right? Yeah. 

Casey: Well, since you're on video here is it. Yeah. 

Sarah: Rocket fuel. Yes. That's 

Casey: it? Yeah. Can you just have the awesome, yeah.

Yes. This is called rocket fuel and it's got, it's a dual author. It's Gino Wickman, and Mark Winters, and they talk a lot about Their theory is there's actually two people at the helm of a business and not just one and some of the traditional models you're seeing, you know, just one person who's the CEO and then all the people underneath.

And I think what Gino, Gino, Wickman and Mark Winters discovered is that a lot of the CEO type people are not. Cut out. That's not their, their zone of genius to lead people and manage companies. There's zone of genius is future thinking big innovation. Yeah. Yes, yes. And those people, as we understand, like Albert Einstein and, you know, some of these other geniuses [00:26:00] is they have these great ideas and they're just not very good at executing them.

And so they're suggesting. If that's the type of person that you are. There's two people at the helm of the business and one is the the innovators and then the other person is the get things done, person. And then when you pair them together, it's like yin and yang. And you have like this whole person who is then going to catapult this company into success.

Yeah. Yeah. I love 

Sarah: that. And that's why if, if we're alone in our business, it's just always helpful to work with a coach who, who sees you from the outside and who can kind of. Maybe you have the vision, and I'm not saying that the coach is going to have the vision for you, but the coach is going to help you get to that vision or have an even bigger vision for you that maybe 

Casey: you can't even see.

Yes. I was just going to say, you know, for, as a fractional integrator, we work with bigger businesses, [00:27:00] you have teams and if you're a solo person and you're in this kind of visionary, Dilemma of, I have this idea. I'm not sure what to do with it. Next, a coach is the perfect next step to help you break down that vision into here's where you need to focus next kind of kind of a thing.

Yeah. 

Sarah: Yeah. Cause I do feel that some, I sometimes work with clients who have. A lot of great ideas. Right. And then oftentimes, because they're also the door, they start telling us too many different things and then we need to really kind of like focus it back. And then I think you mentioned that as well, focus, you know, like what are the, the 

Casey: three 

Sarah: things that you're going to focus on to get to that vision?

Because otherwise you spread 

Casey: yourself too thin. Exactly. You won't get there. Yeah. Yeah. And just to be clear, you know, if you are someone who's working by yourself, just know that as you grow and get [00:28:00] bigger and expand those problems, don't actually change. So I think the term is different level, different devils, so it stays the same.

So there's a lot of CEOs of companies that have that same struggle that those of us who are a single solo business. Hap so we're all people. Yeah. 

Sarah: And on the other hand, so we talked about the coach, but another idea of course, is to get help in the execution. So you work with a, you know, a virtual assistant or you will hire a team member and then they do more of the execution.

So you get to have more space to do the big thinking. Yes, 

Casey: absolutely. Yeah. For someone who is kind of a innovator or a very, I like to call them creative thinkers because that's really who they are. Some type of assistant, whether it's a virtual assistant or an executive assistant can be an amazing.

First hire for you because they are [00:29:00] basically an extension of you only organized. So yeah, that's a definite way to take a step towards getting things done and getting them off your plate. Yeah. 

Sarah: Yeah. I love that. Yeah. So there's this question in my head that I keep thinking, well, can you actually have a business without a vision or a vision statement?

You know, 

Casey: how would that look like? Yeah. And you know what? I can't remember exactly what episode it is, but I have a podcast called female founders, breaking boundaries, and I have an episode on passion. I think it's called passion is not a vision or something like that. And it talks about the difference between passion and vision.

And it gives some examples of how you do have, or can have a. Based on passion and not vision. And there's a lot of very successful businesses today who are based on passion and not vision. Not every business's out to change the world, right? Sometimes you're just [00:30:00] capitalizing on an opportunity or you've recognized a gap in the market and you're doing that.

And, you know, an example might be. I'm making car parts. I mean, I don't know how many of your listeners make car parts, but you know, it's kind of a straightforward thing. We're going to go to work. We're going to make car parts. We're going to make some money. We're going to pay some employees. Now you could have a vision right.

With your business, or you could also just go to work and I'm really passionate about help, you know, making cars last longer. And so that's what we're going to do and that's perfectly fine. And it works. Yeah, it's just the way you structure organized and operate day-to-day is just a little bit different than if you are a vision oriented company.

Yeah. 

Sarah: I'm glad you say that because, because my Mandalah of humane. It doesn't have vision in it. And so I'm like, oh, but I sometimes call my people. I created a new word called vision 

Casey: near. So it's like a [00:31:00] 

Sarah: pioneer slash visionary, but there is no vision in the seven PS of humane marketing, but, but the passion, that's where we start and, and, and I think you're right.

Some 

Casey: people, they 

Sarah: will have this vision on top of things and others, they will just find. 

Casey: You know, make 

Sarah: a business out of the passion or find passion in the business that there is what I, I think you can't, or it wouldn't be very sustainable and much fun to have 

Casey: a business without passion, right? 

Sarah: Where the vision.

Optional and, you know, obviously great have it. 

Casey: Yeah. I was reading about your Mandalah and, and I love it. And it's, it's similar to a little infographic I created as well. Yours is, has definitely more spokes on it than mine does. And one of the things you might do. If, you know, at some point, vision does become [00:32:00] important is that the little center spoke you have there, that's where I've put vision.

So if you do have a vision, that's really where it goes. It's the central hub of everything that you do. So you know, that's one way to think about it. So 

Sarah: for us, the, the center spot is, is, are. Ah, market from within then everything. Yeah, 

Casey: it looks that makes a lot of fairs too. I think in both ways, they're very similar because if you think of a vision, it does come from yourself, right.

That is your vision. Nobody else has that vision. And that's what makes you the leader of the company is that you were holding that vision and it's, it comes from self. So I love it. I really, really dug for that connection there. That's 

Sarah: amazing. I want to quickly, before we start to wrap up also mention your marketing book because, you know, 

Casey: Have kind of this background in [00:33:00] marketing 

Sarah: and you wrote a book a fresh wave of marketing, an intentional approach to marketing for visionary CEOs.

So tell us a little bit about that book and, you know, kind of knowing you now for almost an hour, I can tell that you kind of are part of our people. You think marketing definitely needs to be different, so. Tell us what this fresh wave of 

Casey: marketing looks like. Yeah. Okay. So before I kind of switched, focuses to becoming the fractional integrator person I was I was a fractional CMO and.

One of the things that was happening to me as I was bringing on clients is that our expectations were not aligned. And so I started out this book, started out as a workbook, really for clients. So I would send this workbook to them so they could kind of get a sense of, this is how we're going to start this work.

And when I was done with this [00:34:00] workbook, it was like, I don't know, 25,000, 30,000 words or something. Yeah. I'm thinking to myself, I could probably drop this on Amazon. And so that's how the book came about is everything that we've talked about in this episode today about your vision, mission values. And then, you know, there's some other components of what we call our business blueprint.

The target audience. There's even some stuff in there about customer journey, which I know you just recently had an episode on customer journey, but it's all these components of marketing that make your marketing stand out and marketing is about relating to the customer and humanizing that relationship, which is, I think we get along so well.

So yeah, you can grab that book off of Amazon and it's kind of a down and dirty. Like get your hands dirty and implement kind of things. So by, after reading the book, you should be able to kind of draft your own vision, mission values, [00:35:00] and get a head, start on, figuring out what kind of marketing. Makes sense for you.

Wonderful. 

Sarah: Yeah, it's great. This has been absolutely delightful. 

Casey: Thank you so 

Sarah: much for coming onto this show. Do tell us where people can find you. Yeah. I think you have a free download as well to take this 

Casey: further you integrations of Telus all above. Yeah. Yeah, I am so passionate about getting the mission, vision values, right.

That I haven't a lot of different places. So in addition to getting a fresh wave of marketing off of Amazon, I'd love for you to come over and visit the podcast at female founders, breaking boundaries. I'm on all the. Podcast platforms. And if you'd like to get a little background or have in writing more of what we talked about today, how to come out with your, you know, your ideal vision, mission, and values and articulate that you can go to our [00:36:00] [email protected] backslash humane, and we have, you know, a little worksheet to kind of guide you as you're thinking through your vision, mission values.

I love that. 

Sarah: Thank you so much. And I actually do want to ask you two more things. If you don't mind what's your vision of the future of business? Like where do you see business change and evolve into over the next 10 years? We're kind of, I feel at this. Kind of fork, you know, I was like, it could even go that way or that way.

So 

Casey: where do you think it's going to go? I'm like how long is this podcast? I can make a whole episode out of this, so I'll try to keep it really precise. For, for a long time now I've felt that there was this gap in the small business market. You have small business owners who are at a disadvantage. A variety of different reasons, which we won't get into on this podcast, but I've often [00:37:00] felt like this is where the future of our economy is, is in small business and making these small businesses successful as compared to these huge corporate conglomerates.

And so I think the future of businesses heading towards ways to. Put more focus on small businesses for a variety of reasons for employees and employee benefits. I think small benefits for small businesses are, you know, going to employ. People people are going to be focused more on enjoying their job, enjoying their work.

So whether you're an employee of a small business or a small business owner, people are going to be paying attention to the tr treatment and the work-life balance. And so I think that's kind of the future of small businesses is we're going to start trying to remove some of those obstacles and boundaries for business owners so that, you know, we have more options.

People can. Not be required to live in huge cities in order to [00:38:00] get paid money to live life. You know, we're going to start spreading out and I'm doing more at different levels. 

Sarah: Yeah, that, that makes so much sense. Also what you just said about the cities. I truly believe that people aren't going to move away from these big, expensive cities and, and that's only possible of course, if there is employment in the smaller cities and towns.

Yes. Unless we all do, you know, work from home, but. That might be a future addition or who knows. Maybe it will kind of be part working from home and partly going into the small business, but wouldn't that be wonderful. They would also be less 

Casey: traffic, less cars because yeah, we don't need to all be in the big city anymore.

Right. And as devastating as this pandemic. Then I think one of the outcomes that we might, you know, be thankful for is that we've, we've always had this opportunity [00:39:00] existed with our technology today and the pandemic sort of forced a lot of us to consider different ways of looking at how we. Are employed or looking at how we run our businesses and now the hard part's over, we've figured that out.

And so I think now there'll be more chance or it's going to be easier for us to look at it differently now that we've kind of gotten over the hump of figuring out how to make that work and how to use that technology. Yeah, totally 

Sarah: agree. Last question. What are you grateful for today or this 

Casey: week? You know, what I am grateful for?

I am grateful for technology. So one of the things I talk about on my podcast is how women in many cases, shoulder, so much more mental load, that some of the things that. Easily to other people. We have to work a lot harder for like owning our own business because [00:40:00] I'm a mom and I am grateful for technology and the opportunity to run a small business so that I have the chance to take my boys to boy Scouts after school and to be able to take them to the dentist on Thursday and see.

I'm still able to be a mom and run my business at the same time. I like that. 

Sarah: Yeah. Wonderful. Thank you so much for coming onto the show. It's been a pleasure to talk to you. 

Casey: Thank you, Sarah.