The Humane Marketing Show. A podcast for a generation of marketers who care.

In this muse episode I talk about how the the current economic situation impacts our pricing as entrepreneurs. 

And why instead of raising my prices, I decided to go against the grain and lower the fee of my membership, the Humane Marketing Circle

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Pricing is also one of the 7Ps that we discuss in detail during the Marketing Like We're Human program, my flagship program that I'm running again with a live cohort starting August 25th.

It will run over 8 weeks and is a hybrid program, part video tutorials and workbooks, part weekly live calls where we deepen these concepts.

If any of this resonates, please take some time to look at humane.marketing/program for a very detailed description of the program as well as a 19-minute behind the scenes video and then book a chat with me to see if it's a good fit.

Today I'm talking to Marcy Amato about how to build confidence and competence.

Marcy Amaro, is an educator, speaking expert, podcaster, and empowerment coach who has been working with new entrepreneurs and business owners for nearly three decades. As a coach and mentor, she helps her clients find the confidence and develop the skills necessary to refine their voice and increase their impact through public speaking. Video, podcasting, live events, and other speaking engagements are the fastest and most effective way to scale your business and increase your impact. Marcy can help you find, hone, and leverage your voice for both impact AND income!

In this episode, you'll learn about how to build confidence and comptence as well as...

 

• Marcy's definition of confidence
• The concept 'From Unconscious Incompetence to Unconscious Competence'
• The correlation between responsibility and confidence
• Actionable first steps would you recommend for someone who is struggling with self-doubt, lack of confidence, or imposter syndrome
• And so much more

Marcy's Resources

 

Marcy's Website

Connect with Marcy on:

LinkedIn

Instagram

Facebook

Sarah's Resources

Watch this episode on Youtube

(FREE) Sarah's One Page Marketing Plan

(FREE) Sarah Suggests Newsletter

(FREE) The Humane Business Manifesto

(FREE) Gentle Confidence Mini-Course

Marketing Like We're Human - Sarah's book

The Humane Marketing Circle

Authentic & Fair Pricing Mini-Course

Podcast Show Notes

We use Descript to edit our episodes and it's fantastic!

Email Sarah at [email protected]

Thanks for listening!

 

After you listen, check out Humane Business Manifesto, an invitation to belong to a movement of people who do business the humane and gentle way and disrupt the current marketing paradigm. You can download it for free at this page. There's no opt-in. Just an instant download.

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Warmly,

Sarah

Imperfect Transcript of the show

We use and love Descript to edit our podcast and provide this free transcript of the episode. And yes, that's an affiliate link.

Marcy: [00:00:00] Hi, Marcy. So good to 

Sarah: see you and good to hang out with you. We're actually doing a double episode. Wonderful. My show. And then I'm gonna. 

Marcy: To your show as well. So really excited to be. Yeah, I'm really excited. I'm really excited. Thank you. 

Sarah: So we got to know each other Marcy, because you invited me to a summit.

I call it, I, I ended up calling it a cozy summit because I just felt like it was such a cozy atmosphere. I'm not a. Not always a big fan of these huge summits, whether there's like 50 speakers, you know, like it's almost like overwhelming 

Marcy: the people who sign up sometimes 

Sarah: they're they're good value. But anyway, I liked yours.

It was very cozy. And thank you. And authentic, because that was also the, the topic the, of, of this summit. So being authentic in business and, and visibility and all that. So we really connected on that authentic level. And I thought, well, I need to [00:01:00] have you on my show, not to talk about authenticity. , but what we really wanted to talk about is something that you presented to your summit subscribers about this idea of and I have to read it because it's, it's, it's like, it was like a, to how do you call those tongue.

Tongue twister, tongue twister. Yeah. Tongue twister. Because it it's, it is from unconscious incompetence to unconscious competence. Yes. So this idea that you go from the incompetence to competence, but from unconscious to, and I actually said it wrong from unconscious to conscious, right. 

Marcy: No, it's unconscious to unconscious.

Yeah. Unconscious to unconscious. Explain it more in a minute. Yeah. okay. 

Sarah: Yeah. So anyway, we're, we're gonna unpack that because I think there's a lot to say about that. But maybe. Before we get into that you call yourself a speaking and empowerment coach. So tell us what the biggest, biggest struggle is for your [00:02:00] clients.

What, what did they, what did they come to you 

Marcy: for? Most of my clients come to me because they have been trying to build a tribal movement around something that is just a passion of theirs. Something that they truly believe would change the world for the better. But they can't seem to get traction on their message.

Like they go back and forth on how to present it, or they might even be terrified of the whole idea of standing in front of other people and talking, even if it's virtually like a lot of people have a lot of apprehension. In fact, public speaking is the number one fear in the world. So they are reallys.

Scared or uncomfortable or unsure about how to get their message out there. So what I help them do is hone in on what their real message is. Mm-hmm , I help them gain confidence and empower them in their ability to present that message in a way that resonates with other people. And then I help them launch some sort of platform so that they can actually [00:03:00] deliver their message and make it visible and accessible to the public.

So that's what they come to me. 

Sarah: Mm sounds wonderful. And you mentioned a term that I think kind of fits with this unconscious incompetence and unconscious competence, which is the word confidence. So. You help your clients with confidence? Tell us mm-hmm, more about how you would define confidence. We talk about confidence a lot here on this podcast, because for, you know, the gentle kind of people, the heart centered entrepreneurs, confidence is a big thing.

Yes. So how would you define it? How do you talk about it in your 

Marcy: words? My big thing with confidence is we tend to confuse it with self assurance, right? Like most of the time when we talk about wanting to be confident, what we're really looking for is that sense of self assurance that I can stand wherever I'm at and look like I know what I'm doing and where I won't be fidgeting and nervous and unsure about [00:04:00] what I am about to.

Right. Mm-hmm mm-hmm so that is more of a self-assurance issue than confidence. In my view, confidence is something that is dependent on the task and on the situation, like we can be completely confident in certain circumstances and completely lack confidence in others. And it's the same person. Right? So when we talk about confidence per se, In my opinion, we're looking more at competence than confidence.

And we can talk about that distinction in a minute if you'd like, but it's this idea that. Confidence comes from feeling like we have the skill, the talent, and the ability to perform the particular task that is in front of us. Not necessarily the overall sense of self assurance. Those are two different things in my view.

Mm 

Sarah: it's interesting. So it, to me, it sounds like. One. So the, the self-assurance is kind of like definitely this inner work to, you know, that you can work on [00:05:00] to get self-assurance and then the confidence, the way you define it is more like, well, get competent and then you will feel more con. 

Marcy: Fit confidence.

It does feel like we're doing a tongue twister, right? yes. And there are different, and there are different elements to this piece of confidence. Right. And I think that they all somehow intertwine and stem from competence in what we will unpack in a minute, but it comes from. Competence right from the commitment on actually achieving whatever it is that you're trying to achieve.

And from as assuming responsibility right for that task or that end result. So when I know that I'm not a victim to whatever's happening around me, that I am responsible for the results I produce when I am committed. To getting to that result. And I am developing the confidence to get to that result.

I mean, the competence, there's no way I cannot be confident in doing what I'm about to do. Does that make sense? Mm mm-hmm mm-hmm 

Sarah: so you brought in another word [00:06:00] that's responsibility and so , well, I think it's time that we unpack your, your concept from unconscious incompetence to unconscious competence so that we.

Kind of place these different terms at the right places. So tell us all about 

Marcy: absolutely. And it might get a little tricky there for a minute. So I'll go a little slowly at the beginning. So there are four levels in this transition, and this is not a concept that I came up with. This is something that I've learned throughout my study of leadership and it begins with whatever.

What we want to accomplish whatever skill we want to be confident in or whatever we want to do. We typically start at the unconscious incompetence level, which means that we don't know what we don't. Right. So we are unsure of what it even entails. We might know that we want to do something with it. We might know that it's important.

We might have a preliminary definition of what it is, but we don't know all the skills that are involved. We [00:07:00] don't know what we should research. We don't even know where to start. Right. So that's the unconscious incompetent piece from that we move to conscious incompetence, which means that now we are aware of everything that we Don.

So we've all been in the, in the space, right. Where we are trying to get better at something, whatever it might be. And we start looking into it and then we realize, oh, wait a minute, like, let's use business for instance, wait a minute. I thought I could just start a business, but I need to learn about marketing.

And I need to know about copywriting and I need to know about audiences and I need to know about promotion and I need to know about offers and, and we start unpacking all the different things that are involved in it. And suddenly we're really conscious of everything that we don't. So we get into the space, usually of feeling a little bit of overwhelmed and of feeling like, do I really need to know all of this and feeling this big because we realize how little we actually know about the enterprise that we just started.

And that's that level of conscious incompetence. Mm-hmm as we start. [00:08:00] Just diving into all that research. Then we move into conscious competence, which is when we are able to do the thing. So we know what we need to do, but we need to be very conscious and very aware of every step involved in the process.

So that's when we might need to rely on checklists or we might need to rely on scripts, or we might need to do get a little hand holding from someone that's gonna walk us through the process. Right. So we can do it. We're able to perform, but we still need eight and resources to help us through because we're very conscious of every little step that we need to do.

Right. And then we finally get to that level of unconscious competence, which is when we are so competent in that skill, that it becomes second nature. It's in our body language, it's in everything we do, it becomes part of who we are. We don't have to think about it. We. Do it, and it becomes so ingrained in who we are and what we do that [00:09:00] sometimes we even forget that we went through that entire process and it becomes something that we take for granted.

Mm-hmm because it's so. Comfortable. And it's so easy and we are so confident in doing it that we don't even have to think about it. So those are the stages. 

Sarah: Mm. Yeah. I love that. And when you presented it, you kind of had this these steps, right. Like of a staircase and we were you you're going up. I have a bunch of follow up questions and, and maybe also kind.

Playing devil's advocate about the last stage, but let me start with the, the idea of the word incompetence to me. It has kind of, you know, has this negative aftertaste in my mouth, Sinai. I think it's just natural and human to not want to be incompetent. So is it always a bad thing to be incompetent?

Marcy: Not even a little bit. And actually , there's this saying in my world, embrace the suck. I don't know if you've heard that before. Mm-hmm but embrace the fact that [00:10:00] everybody starts sucking and I hate that word, but. I mean, it is what it is. We all start bad at whatever it is that we're doing something.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And the thing is once we understand all those terms that we usually assign a negative connotation to us neutral. Right. So there's nothing good or bad unless you interpret it as good or bad. Yes. Can we all agree on that? So if we agree on that, then we can see that incompetence simply means that we are not yet competent.

So that means there's a lot of room for growth and for improvement. Right? Right. And if we embrace this idea that we need to be lifelong learners, then every time we recognize an area of unconscious incompetence, We should get excited about the prospect of eventually becoming competent. If it's something that really resonates with us, or that is important to us, right?

Mm-hmm , there are areas in life that I will always want to be incompetent in. Right. There are things that I just have absolutely no interest in learning. At all [00:11:00] whatsoever, like I have no interest in learning how to play football. I have no interest, you know, there are certain things that I'm just not interested in and you as well.

So it's okay to recognize that those are areas of incompetence. And even as we build businesses, or even as we grow our movements, It's important to recognize those areas of incompetence and be honest with ourselves about whether that is something that we want to build the competence in, or if it's something that we simply want to get alongside someone else who is competent at it, who gets passion from it, who loves it.

And then partner with that person because that's part of the beauty. I think of what you propose as humane and gentle marketing, right. Is we don't have to know it all. We can be in collaboration with other people and that expands our ability to be competent. 

Sarah: Yeah. Or, or even just. Not do it at all. Like I'm thinking of, you know, the social media things.

Well, I'm definitely incompetent on Instagram and I could partner with someone who's [00:12:00] competent. But maybe I just don't want to so I can also absolutely say, you know, not for me it's okay. That I I'm. Absolutely. I'm not there. Yeah. Yeah. I really appreciate you saying that. And then the other end of the spectrum is the, the, the unconscious competence where.

You know, sometimes it's also good to still have that beginner's mind all the time. Right. And, and I think you kind of hinted at it's like this risk of feeling super competent and then maybe start lacking. Is it like slacking a little bit and not doing the preparation you need to do or. Or just not expand your thinking and, and your learning.

Have you seen that as well? 

Marcy: Yeah. And not only that and I, I will touch on what you just said, but I would add to that the layer of I very often have clients who come to me with this. Belief that they don't have anything special to offer the marketplace. Like there's nothing unique about them at [00:13:00] all.

And that stems from being so deeply into unconscious competence, that they can't even recognize their talents anymore. Right. Like they're, they come so naturally to them that they don't see it as something special, but what is. An unconsciously competent area for you is most likely something that somebody else is having a hard time with or wanting to learn more about mm-hmm so there's two dangers to this area of unconscious competence.

And I will tell you in a second, what I believe the solution to that is, but it's like you mentioned is first getting really LA lack about it and being all like, oh, it's fine. I don't need to worry about it, cuz I'm just so good at it. Don't need to grow anymore. I don't need to worry about it anymore. And on the other side, becoming so disattached from it, right?

That you don't even recognize it as a talent or an ability or a value that you can bring to the marketplace anymore. Right? So my solution to that [00:14:00] is always room for growth, no matter where you're at and to develop what It's called and I forget the lady's name right now, but I will think of it a learner's mindset.

Right? So it's just this idea of always being in a position to learn more, to grow more, to see. And a lot of that has to do with the environment that you surround yourself with and the networking and the connections that you make. Right? Because as you get in touch with others who are also really competent in certain areas, you start to realize, oh wait, I never thought of it that way.

Or I never saw it this way, or I never. Experimented with doing it that way. And you start to see that there's always even more room for growth. Mm-hmm . 

Sarah: Yeah. At the same time, when I think about, you know, marketing and humane marketing, I'm, I'm kind of like, if I always look somewhere else, then I also kind of lose my own way again.

so it, it really is a, yeah. You need to find the balance where it's like, okay. I do always. [00:15:00] Get, you know, inspiration from others and see what others do and keep learning. And yet. You know, stay in my own on my own lane and say, no, this is how I'm gonna do it without necessarily being influenced how other people do it.

So it really is that yeah. Balance that you need to find for 

Marcy: yourself. And I think that that's where the authenticity piece comes in. When you really know who you are and you really are in tune and aligned with your values, there are certain things that you're going to see others do that are immediately going to cause a resistance in the sense of no, that doesn't sound like me or that doesn't look like something I would venture into.

And it's trusting that, right? Like there are certain levels of resistance where you need to step into it and just risk it because that's where your next level of growth is. But there are certain things that are just so against. Your nature against who you really are. That just that resistance is saving you from being inauthentic from stepping outside of your values or of your vision.

So [00:16:00] it's being really aware and I think both you and I agree in that the very first step in anything that we endeavor has to be complete awareness, right. And so being 100% aware, What your limitations and your boundaries are and being, almost maniacal about not giving up your boundaries and not giving up your authenticity and your integrity.

I think that that's where the, the balance is found. 

Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. I'm so glad. Glad you're bringing this up. This reminds me of a, a story that I wanted to share about, you know, 

Marcy: my own 

Sarah: realization of these things that you were like, oh, that other people are doing this. Like recently I looked that into book marketing because somebody approached me on LinkedIn about book marketing.

I'm like, well, yeah, I guess I could do more. The book and, you know, market the, and so I was like, okay, let's get on a zoom call and have a conversation about this. And then the minute, you know, this [00:17:00] guy started to, because I asked him specific questions, what are you gonna do? How are you gonna do it? And he's like, oh, I'm just posting on social media.

I'm like, whoa. You know, tell me, tell me more, tell me details. And he's like, oh, I'm just gonna post it on different groups. And I'm like, something's fishy here. I think, you know, this is not, this is not gonna work out. but yet the ego was telling me, oh, this is gonna be good. You know, this is gonna mean more readers.

And, and then, and then the, I guess the. The integrity kicked in and said, said, watch out. Something's not right here. And, and so, yeah. Yeah, it's, it's interesting to, you know, still, still expose yourselves to maybe opportunities and things of growth and at the same time realize, okay, you know, This was not that thing that would work for me.

Yeah. 

Marcy: And, and also being gentle with ourselves in the sense of understanding that we evolve. Right. [00:18:00] Yeah. And so very often we start businesses or ventures with an idealistic view of what we are going to create. Mm-hmm based on. This dream imaginary utopian world that we created in our heads before we dove into what it really is.

Right. Right. But as we're exposed to the reality of how things tend to operate out there, we evolve. And that's just the truth. Right? Sometimes we find ourselves going, oh, wait a minute. Maybe I can explore this, or maybe I should do that. Or we see ourselves shift. From one perspective to the next. And it's important to be gentle with ourselves and have grace with ourselves in understanding that if we are to move on this for the long term, then we are going to evolve and we are going to shift and we are going to change.

So be open to listening, but also be honest with yourself as to whether this is too much of a compromise to your integrity or not, right? Like, yeah, [00:19:00] you might not. Been in a position right now to say yes to that, but maybe you'll think back on it and maybe, maybe not, maybe you'll think back on it in a few months or a year, and you'll be like, you know what, now I'm willing to explore it a little bit more.

Mm-hmm and knowing that that's okay. Right. So we shift, we evolve with change and the only way we can know where we want to go and where we don't is by being open enough to examine what's out there and then seeing whether it resonates with us or. Yeah. 

Sarah: Yeah. When you were talking about this journey from incompetence to competence, I was thinking about my own journey, for example, with what came up was the webinars that back in the days I would, I remember I would have, you know, the webinar slides and then I would print out, or I know I would ask a friend for some cardboard.

Kind of, because her husband works in a printing shop. And so I would get these print these cardboards and really map out every single slide, what I was gonna say. And, and then I would practice it like, you know, [00:20:00] at least two times go through the whole thing, see how much time I needed for each. And yeah, it was like a big deal every time.

Right. I was like, no, I, I don't feel confident if I don't practice, practice, practice, and. That being said, I still do that with the podcast. I like to write a lot of things out you know, for the intro and outro and like a lot of it is still in writing. Because I think it gives me confidence, but it also just, that's how I process my thoughts.

And, and so I'm curious if you have an example of something. Oh, and then I didn't share that now in the workshops that I'm giving, I just have bullet points maybe, and you know, a bunch of things on the slide. But I do feel like I'm in that zone of unconscious competence, where I don't need to have any script or anything.

So I'm curious what it was for you, where you could really see that journey that you went from. 

Marcy: A to Z, you know, [00:21:00] for me, sorry for me, it's more about the copy because I am a literature major. Mm-hmm like, that's what I studied in school. So I was taught a very formulaic framework for how to write mm-hmm , but that's a very different type of writing than copywriting.

So every time I'm doing anything that relates to copy, I tend to still, to this day, second, guess myself and read it and reread it a million times. And you know, so my process has been. To find a sweet spot where I can write and trust myself, that what I wrote is what needs to get out there and just sending it be before I have a, a chance to just second guess myself too much.

Right, right. And backtrack on it too much. So I've developed certain things that help me. Like, for example, if I'm writing copy for an email broadcast, I actually open my personal email and I open a new message on there and I type it. Like I'm typing a message to a friend on my email. That puts my [00:22:00] mind at ease that I'm not writing.

Copy. I'm writing an email to a friend and I'm just sharing all this information with a friend mm-hmm and then I've gotten into the habit of just copy paste, maybe bold, then highlight a couple of things and just hit send before you have a chance to think too much about it, right? Yeah. that's usually what works actually.

Yeah. When it comes to copy for my website and for landing pages and things like that, I've gotten in the habit of recording it because I feel very C. Speaking mm-hmm . That is something that I have unconscious competence about. I can speak off the cuff about pretty much anything that's in my wheelhouse.

And so when I want to present an idea on a landing page or a website or whatever it may be, or an ad, I record it. And then I go back over what I said, or I just transcribe it, fix it a little bit and just post it and trust that what I said is what I meant to say. And so those are two areas in which I've really worked on, figuring out how to get from unconscious incompetence to on the conscious competence.

And I still struggle a little bit with them because of my background. And [00:23:00] it's just letting go a little bit of my prior training and just focusing on what I wanna say. 

Sarah: Yeah. Those are great tips. I, I love the idea of just writing it in Gmail or Yahoo or whatever, and then copying it over, cuz it really feels like, oh, I'm just writing this to a friend.

So you don't get into that. Oh, I, you know, have to send out this professional sounding email, which then doesn't come over as being authentic. 

Marcy: Yeah, exactly. And I actually got that idea from Amy Yama and she's a mentor and she's amazing. And we were talking about it once, how I was not getting the engagement from my email list that I was hoping for mm-hmm and she said, well, walk me through your process.

Mm-hmm . And I was like, well, I sit down and, and she's like, okay, that's the first issue right there. think about how we can make this feel to you. Like, you're just chatting with a friend and then everything else will come together. And so she's the one that gave me that idea. So you, me, 

Sarah: yeah. Wonderful. We kind of skipped over the responsibility terms, so [00:24:00] let's go back to that.

How, how does that, so how does the responsibility and confidence, what do they have to do together? 

Marcy: Okay. So one of the things that I have found in my own work with myself and in working with clients is that if we ha have any kind of victimized view in terms of what we're doing and the results we're getting.

That gives us a back door. So that gives us an excuse or a justification for not trying for not doing and for not reaching. Right. So the more we can move away from that into responsibility, the more confidence we can develop in the fact that whatever result we're getting is within our control. So if we don't like it, we can fix it.

Right. And there are two elements that fall into that element of responsibility. One is the accountability piece, which is knowing that. Get to own my actions and the results of those actions. And I get to just [00:25:00] take the consequences and, or the rewards, right. So it's not up to anybody else. I'm not looking to blame anybody else.

I'm not looking to justify anything. Did I do what I said I was gonna do? Yes or no. And why? And then I get to own it. And that helps me shift if I need to. So that the next time I do get to the result. Right. And the other piece that goes into the responsibility issue is this idea of self-regulation, which is knowing how far I'm willing to go.

Right. So, Understanding that it might take a little while that it might not happen right away, that I might need to risk certain things that I might need to give up some comforts or some things that are nice for me, if I'm really working towards this particular field or this particular result. Right. So if I can assume ownership, which is the accountability piece and also.

Regulate myself in understanding that there will be some sacrifices, probably that there will be some things that I get to do [00:26:00] differently or that I get to shift. Then I am in full responsibility and I can shift the confidence lever because I understand that whatever the end result is is up to me. It's not to not up to anything else or anybody else.

The circumstances are not to blame. The people are not to blame. It's just me. What am I willing to do? And how far am I willing to go? 

Sarah: I just love that piece. So much of the responsibility. And I have not heard it before in the context of, of confidence. And I think it's all there. It's that that's, that's really it.

And, and I'm not blaming people who are lacking that responsibility piece. I'm blaming. You know, I'm blaming the whole online system, really the online gurus and, and the way we've been treating clients and subscribers and et cetera, et cetera, because we've taken the power away from clients. And so no [00:27:00] wonder.

They felt like they were, could just give up responsibility. Let me show you how I, my webinar made a million dollars in three weeks. Here are the three steps. Right? Well, great. Yeah. I don't have to take responsibility. You're just gonna spoon feeded me the information and off I go. And, and then of course they fall into the victim because it's not working.

so. That responsibility piece is so it's so important. And, and I think we really need to talk about it more. Yeah, things don't I think it, it goes together with this idea of things. Don't just come easy. You, the, it takes work to go from incompetence to competence and the confidence piece fits in there as well.

So yeah, you do have to take responsibility, but that also means that us. You know, the leaders or the entrepreneurs have to be willing to share the [00:28:00] responsibility or give the responsibility back. That's really what I'm trying to do in the humane marketing circle. I'm saying, look, look, I'm not your guru.

I'm not gonna teach you step by step things and tutorials and whatever. Yeah, I'm, I'm wanting to work with responsible human beings. Right? I don't. Do you see any examples where, where that is really addressed? 

Marcy: Well, I think as COVID has shifted the way we do business online, because it has become such a, such an integral part of everything that we do.

Right. So, right. Everybody now has some knowledge of how online works. Period. Mm-hmm right. Yeah. So I think as the world has shifted because of everything that we went through with COVID, people are becoming more and more savvy and more aware of those red flags, right? Like everything starts just sounding alarms around this idea of right.

Yeah. You can do it in 90 days or [00:29:00] no, you can do it in three steps or no, you can do it in whatever. And there is a piece to. Marketing in general, where we want our clients to feel like they have what it takes to do it. Right. But I think the danger comes in oversimplifying or over promising. Right. Right.

And that happens too much still. Mm-hmm I know I've had the experience of signing up for $10,000 programs that promised me six figures in 90 days. And I went through the program. I did what I was supposed to do. Did not get the six figures in 90 days. And then when I went to talk to the guru or the person in charge, they were like, no, you didn't do it exactly the way I told you to do it.

So there's always, I don't know. There's always a, a. A touchy element to that. Right. And there's, again, a balance that we want to achieve because nobody's going to sign up for something where they feel like it's impossible to achieve. No. [00:30:00] Yeah. But, but we also need to be clear on the fact that, well, you know, if you put in the work.

When effectively applied, then this is the end result you can work towards. Yeah. But I can't guarantee when or how, because that depends on your effort. So putting it back on the client in that sense, I think it's important. And I think we're doing a little bit. Better a little bit at that since COVID because like I said, people are just overloaded.

Everybody has a summit, everybody has a webinar, everybody has a challenge. Everybody has a, something that we're offering for free with these big promises. And then they see themselves signing on and not getting the results and wondering, okay, where was the missing piece? Yeah. And I think a big, a big part of the missing piece.

Like I think every. Single person who's promoting has the, I believe. And I want to believe that has the intention of helping the people produce the result. I think the missing link is in giving the other person, the client, the [00:31:00] responsibility piece and helping them understand that look, these steps will work to the extent that you do mm-hmm so I'm gonna help you work them, but you have to work them.

Yeah. 

Sarah: Yeah. It's so interesting. I, I was recently on a, a prepo call where the, the lady was, you know, basically asking me what five steps can you share? And I'm like, I don't really work in five steps. Like it's a lot about finding what works for you. And, and so she's like, no, no, no, but I can help you nail it down.

Just gimme five steps. And I'm like, you know what? I think, I think this is not gonna work because my audience. Or, or your audience is trained with these five steps and they're not gonna respond to what I'm, you know, ready to share. So I think it's it's yeah, it really, to me, it is about empowering the client and making sure that people understand.

These were all scams. You [00:32:00] know, we it's the exception. If you really do make a six figure business business in 90 days, and then kind of coming down more back to the reality of things, but we kind of got off track. So let's go back to, to our because we could talk about. About that stuff for hours, right?

Yeah. So kind of maybe to, to wrap up, what, what actionable first steps would you recommend for someone who is struggling with, you know, this confidence piece, where would, where would they start? 

Marcy: All right. So like I said before, I believe everything starts with clear awareness, like full and complete awareness.

So the first actionable step I would suggest anybody is be 100% crystal clear on what the end result is that you're trying to produce what it is that you want to get yourself and your clients too. Achieve. Right. So once you know exactly where it is that you get [00:33:00] to go where it is that you want to end up, then you can kind of backwards plan, right.

And figure out, okay, what do I need to do? But when you have the end result in mind and you're crystal clear on what that end result is, then you can start. Laying out. Okay. What are these areas that I would need to touch on that I'm really not competent in that I'm really not confident about? And where can I go to start building that conscious incompetence?

Where can I go to start researching and looking for what I need to work on, what I get to improve upon so that I eventually get to that confide. Piece. Right. If you're looking specifically at, for example, my clients who work on public speaking I first and foremost is like, okay, what kind of platform do you want?

Do you want to actually speak in front of life? Audiences? Is that your end goal? Because if that is your end goal, then we need to. Start working on your physiology right away. And that's something that a lot of people don't think about when they're thinking about public speaking, they think about [00:34:00] message and how to structure their talk and, and all that is part of it.

But if that is your end result, we need to start with how you stand, how you breathe, how you position your body, so that you are more confident in front of that audience, or look more self assured, which is what they really are looking for. Mm-hmm so again, it just depends on what your end result. Is what it is that you're looking to achieve.

And once you're crystal clear on that, then figuring out, okay, what things do I need to be competent in, in order to feel confident at that end result? Hmm. Yeah. 

Sarah: So good. And I, I, I would assume that not a lot of people think that way and it it's funny. We just recently at dinner at the dinner table, we looked up the seven habits of highly effective people from steam co.

And, and that is actually one of them start with the end in mind. And so that's. Pretty much what you're saying here is like, yeah. Well look at what you want to achieve and then step by step, work up your confidence level to, to get [00:35:00] there. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. This has been wonderful. Thank you so much for thank you.

Coming on to the humane marketing podcast, please do share with people where they can find out more about you and your work. And I believe you also have a, a download for people to go to. 

Marcy: Yeah. So as we are speaking, my website is in reconstruction, but within, by the end of the week, you can go to Marcy maro.com and just look up more information, or you can find me on Instagram or LinkedIn, just search Marcy Maro.

And I will come on the only one with gray hair. So the, the only Marc CMR with the gray hair. And yes, I have downloadable to share with you. I will share the link with Sarah, so she can share it with you guys. Showing me because it's a little bit tricky since my website is down, but it is a downloadable of the tough talks checklist, which is just a checklist that walks you through how to have tough conversations in business and in life so that everybody [00:36:00] involved end up feeling heard, understood, and respected in the process.

So wonderful. 

Sarah: And I have one last question for you, Marcy, and that is what are you grateful for today or this week? 

Marcy: I am grateful for my kids being home. And I've been getting to spend a lot of time with them and I'm grateful for the sunshine and for my little dog that keeps me on my toes. she's actually right next to me right now.

wonderful. 

Sarah: That's great. It's been so fun. Hanging out with you, Marcy. Thank you so 

Marcy: much. It's always fun. Hanging out with you. Thank you, Sarah.

Today I'm talking to my friend Remeny Armitage about turning your clients into advocates.

Remeny Armitage's mission is to humanize business. She has over 20 years experience working for a variety of businesses in client advocacy and insight research, marketing and new business. Ultimately, she helps businesses understand what their clients REALLY think about them with the goal of turning their clients into advocates. Her experience has helped build relationships between businesses and their clients in a human-centric way. She gets under the skin of a business by interviewing their clients and feeding back ways they can improve the business and the way they engage with their clients in a human way. She has built up a range of methods that ensures business improvement and growth, while building long-lasting relationships that are based on a strong foundation of trust and respect between businesses and their clients, with the aim of turning them into advocates

In this episode, you'll learn about turning your clients into advocates as well as...

 

• Remeny's mission to humanize business
• what turning your clients into advocates has to do with sustainability
• what's behind the mistake of always looking for "new" business before revisiting existing clients
• how a focus on humanity helps to build more loyal customers
• and so much more.

Remeny's Resources

 

Remeny's Website

Connect with Remeny on:

LinkedIn

Sarah's Resources

Watch this episode on Youtube

(FREE) Sarah's One Page Marketing Plan

(FREE) Sarah Suggests Newsletter

(FREE) The Humane Business Manifesto

(FREE) Gentle Confidence Mini-Course

Marketing Like We're Human - Sarah's book

The Humane Marketing Circle

Authentic & Fair Pricing Mini-Course

Podcast Show Notes

We use Descript to edit our episodes and it's fantastic!

Email Sarah at [email protected]

Thanks for listening!

 

After you listen, check out Humane Business Manifesto, an invitation to belong to a movement of people who do business the humane and gentle way and disrupt the current marketing paradigm. You can download it for free at this page. There's no opt-in. Just an instant download.

Are you enjoying the podcast?  The Humane Marketing show is listener-supported—I'd love for you to become an active supporter of the show and join the Humane Marketing Circle. You will be invited to a private monthly Q&A call with me and fellow Humane Marketers -  a safe zone to hang out with like-minded conscious entrepreneurs and help each other build our business and grow our impact.  — I'd love for you to join us! Learn more at humane.marketing/circle

Don't forget to subscribe to the show on iTunes or on Android to get notified for all my future shows and why not sign up for my weekly(ish) "Sarah Suggests Saturdays", a round-up of best practices, tools I use, books I read, podcasts, and other resources.

Raise your hand and join the Humane Business Revolution.

Warmly,

Sarah

Imperfect Transcript of the show

We use and love Descript to edit our podcast and provide this free transcript of the episode. And yes, that's an affiliate link.

Sarah: [00:00:00] [00:01:00] [00:02:00] [00:03:00] [00:04:00] [00:05:00] [00:06:00] [00:07:00] [00:08:00] Hey re how are you? 

Remeny: Yeah, I'm good. Thank you. 

Sarah: Thanks for having me. Yeah, I'm so excited to get to talk to you again. We've had several chances off and on recording this time, we're recording again. So good to speak to you. We were met through a networking. I was gonna say a networking event, but it was through another person who connected the two of us.

Yes. I [00:09:00] think she talked to you after just talking to me and she's like, You both talk about humanizing business. Yes. So I think you should know each other. It was exactly, it 

Remeny: was a, it was serendipity. It was great. Exactly. 

Sarah: Yeah. And then I think you told me that you just bought my selling, like we're human bug, like before, 

Remeny: so yeah.

Which is funny. It was so weird. I mean, talk about serendipity. It was like, oh wow. You know, I'm obviously, yeah. That's never happened before. You're the first person here. I bought the book and then suddenly he'd landed in my life. It's very exciting. Yeah. I love 

Sarah: these moments. Yeah. Love them. Yeah. So, so yeah, that's why we're here because we have you know, very similar worldviews business views, our values are aligned.

And so I feel like we have a lot of things in common and absolutely, we talk a lot of things about a lot of things as well. So your business is called brilliant and human and. So have this tagline on your homepage that says let's humanize business together. So [00:10:00] yes, absolutely. Tell us more, tell us about your story and how this all started.

Remeny: Oh, well thank you so, well, yes, as you say, it's brilliant and human is my business. The idea is by being more human you can be, well, you can be more brilliant. And so um, the, the focus of the work that I do is all about making. People in business, happier by building better relationships with them.

And the way I do that at the moment is focusing more on the client side and building better relationships with clients by proactively listening to clients and actually learning what makes them. What would make them happier in with their suppliers and their the businesses that they're working with so that they can so that they can help the businesses improve.

So typically I interview my clients, clients find out what's working, what's not, and look at ways of improving a business so that they can serve their clients better with more humanity and more care. And, and actually hopefully promote happier working environment. [00:11:00] 

Sarah: Yeah, I, I, I will definitely ask more questions about that because when I first heard you say that, I was like, wow, that's interesting.

I've never heard that before. And in fact were. Featuring this episode under the P of partnership of the humane marketing Mandela, and it's really this partnership with your clients, right? Yes. That, that, and, and, and I guess for you as with your clients' clients as well yes. That's who you're really talking 

Remeny: to.

Yes. So how did that 

Sarah: yeah. How did, how did you turn that idea into, you know, now your business model and services? 

Remeny: Well, I had been working in agencies, so digital agency I was in the, got into marketing and biz dev for digital agencies for gosh, since 99. And I. You know, the person who people came to to build the relationships with the potential clients mainly, but I always felt that, you know, I would spend a long time doing new business, [00:12:00] building relationships, bringing clients in, built on trust and humanity and care.

And then the, the. Agency the, the team would be working with the client would be getting on fine with the client, but then often what would happen is that the project would finish and then the client would go off and do something else with someone else. And, and I've always felt frustrated and, and felt that there was more opportunity there to build those relationships so that you've got more human and engaging relationships so that they stay more loyal.

So that they continue to work with you and if they move to another business, they go on and they get, you know, they'll keep working with you cuz it's people working with people. And so I I decided to leave the agency after 10 years and I set up brilliant in human and the originally I was doing marketing biz dev and, and then the client care piece, but then I've become more and more focused on the, the.

The client care and the client advocacy piece and that [00:13:00] human engagement. So, because I think that businesses are often so busy doing the bulk, doing the bulk of the work that they're doing and looking at how to win new business and, and things like that, that they actually often lose, or don't have time to nurture those relationships ongoing because they're busy doing the work today and not necessarily.

Building those relationships ongo ongoing. So so that's kind of how I came up with the idea. And so in my previous agency I would interview clients, but then it was just about that one client and fixing problems usually. Whereas now I'm speaking to a range of clients for one business, and then there's often themes that come out and then we can try and help.

Improve ways of working and improve. You know, it could be anything from marketing to business strategy to processes, identifying new services clients were asking [00:14:00] for. And so that's kind of how I came into doing what I do. 

Sarah: Hmm. I love that. Yeah. It it's so often you know, also in this marketing world, we're always taught to get new clients, right.

Mm-hmm, , that's the whole idea of, of marketing as well. It's like, okay, let me help you to get more and more clients where, what you are saying is like, well actually, why don't you deepen the relationships with your existing or, or maybe even past clients, right? Yes. To me, what that brings up is kind of this.

Idea of sustainability as well. Like don't just throw away your clients and move on to the next one, actually, you know, deepen that relationship. So I guess. Yeah. Tell us about the impact that you see. Just in a minute, but I would also say that probably also then leads to more referrals. If I think about it, it's like, well, since the relation relationship is deeper with your clients, well, then they will talk more about, you know, about [00:15:00] the service you provide to other people.

Yeah. And it, what other impact 

Remeny: is there? Well, I, I, I mean, that is certainly one of them. I've just, just interviewed someone a couple of hours ago and it was, it was definitely an advocate for the person I was interviewing for the agency I was working for. And the client was saying that you know, how much she loved.

The supplier and how she'd become friends with them and how she's worked with this, this person, this business for years, right in the last three or four roles that she's been in mm-hmm because she trusts this person, absolutely implicitly, this, this organization. And you know, that in itself is like, you know, she is.

The the best marketing tool you could have. Yeah. And so I say, I believe that if you can proactively try to nurture those relationships, your clients from, you know, happy enough clients to advocates, they are going to be the most powerful tool you've got in your, you know, marketing. Kit, because you can then ask them for advice on, you know, whether or not [00:16:00] it's, what marketing should we be doing or, or using they're getting their testimonials or their case studies and actually, you know, promoting your business with them, maybe in alignment or in collaboration with your clients as well is often opportunities there.

But you were asking about other impact. I. I've seen lots of different areas of impact from, you know, obviously the marketing, but also I've had a number of occasions where clients have been saying, they, they really like the organization, the business, but actually they don't feel, for example, they might not be proactive enough, then it might not be thinking innovatively.

Then I might not be thinking about the future and. and actually opportunities have come up for my clients to come up with new services or new products, right. To meet the needs of their clients. Yeah. And, and then they can then grow off the back of what their clients are actually asking for. Yeah. So I've had a couple of clients.

I have one [00:17:00] client who. Their clients were all saying they wanted them to be more strategic. And within six months they were making 40% profit off the back of what their clients were asking for. Nice. I I've had other, I mean, impact. Sometimes the work, the findings I find can be quite difficult for, for a business to hear.

It's not always good and it can be very uncomfortable. So, yeah. I'm 

Sarah: gonna ask you about that. Cause I, I think you probably have some stories there as well. I do. 

Remeny: And it's it's it is, I mean, people. Have to be quite brave to hear truly honest feedback. Yeah. Because it can be, it can be hard. And you know, I've had situations where I've interviewed clients and it's been really clear.

There's one team member that might be causing trouble within the organization that is upsetting the clients and the clients are leaving. Cuz they mm-hmm don't feel they can feed that back. And actually you're gonna lose. Business, unless you're actually aware of what's going on within, within your organization.[00:18:00] 

Yeah. And then act on it and then, but, you know, feed that back to your clients and make sure that you are. Showing that you can be vulnerable, but you are actually, you are trying to fix issues. And I mean, I had another client where their clients were finding the, the way they were being serviced with the product.

Projects they were working on was so appalling that they were complaining. And again, they were leaving in droves and it was cause some of the processes were so bad and the way they were being treated was so negative that they were deeply unhappy. And so after speaking to their clients, Who all said they were felt like they were being over, over promised under delivered that once the, my client understood what was going on, they were able to fix those problems.

Went to their clients, apologize was really open and upfront and said, look really sorry, but [00:19:00] you know, this is what we're going to do to fix it. And their satisfaction. Rating went from 22% to 74% over four months just by being honest. So I think, you know, that impact that can save reputation yeah. 

Sarah: Is so good.

So many things I wanna kind of go back to, I think the first one is what I heard you say, you know, when you talk to the clients of your clients, you really find out what they want and what they. What they, their expectations are. But sometimes as the people who are delivering, delivering the service or, or creating the products, we're not actually aware of what our clients really want.

And so we give them what we think they need, but. You know, maybe it's completely the wrong thing. And so actually talking to your clients really gives you that information doesn't it? So that you can then adjust the business and say, oh, okay. And also adjust the marketing. Like, [00:20:00] because in, in marketing, if we are talking.

About something that they don't actually want. Well, obviously that's gonna be a problem. Nobody's gonna buy our services anymore. Yes. So yeah, I think that that was such an important point you made there. I forgotten now. Oh, the other thing you know what, like, I, I Think about my humane marketing circle, where last year we did a, a town hall meeting and I said, look, let's get all together.

And let's think about how we can make this circle even better next year. And it was just so helpful to hear different opinions and people, you know, say, well, actually I think the calls are too short and. Can we add this? Can we have a community platform? So really yeah, creating it almost together that I think is really helpful, but you're right.

It also does take, you know, courage to say, what if they're gonna say we don't like it, or, you know, what, if these is issues come up, but that's why [00:21:00] transparency, I think is just so key. Mm. And. It takes 

Remeny: courage. Yeah. yeah. And it might be that you, you are aware that there things aren't going quite as smoothly, but you don't know how to quite approach it.

Yeah. And actually by having impartial feedback and, and interviewing impartially, it means that then the clients can feedback honestly. And then it opens those conversations up that might be difficult to have if you. Trying to do it yourself because it's, it's totally natural to try and defend your business or defend your people.

Mm-hmm when actually it, and I think it's much easier for the clients to say. I'd rather not feed that back because it's much easier just to find someone else. Yeah. Actually when you fix things, clients become so much more loyal. Yeah. And you know, if you are saying, look, you know, I'm sorry, we've messed this up.

Or, you know, understand that you're interested in this. Let's, let's talk open those conversations up and try [00:22:00] to do it with someone who's not going to take anything personally. Yeah. 

Sarah: What are some things that you hear over and over again? Like complaints or 

Remeny: just there's there's three, I'd say there's three complaints that come up the most frequently, and one of them is lack of.

Processes or kind of not very strong processes or the clients are aware that the processes are failing here and there, which you don't want lack of productivity and lack of communication. So they're all really intertwined with each other. We've got good processes. Hopefully the other two will be fixed and equally, if you've got communication and you know, you are being more proactive with the way you're thinking, you can, oops, you can build things up and I mean, I believe gen generally that if you look at your customer journey or client journey, when are you speaking to them?

When are you engaging with them? And then you think about that, the processes, proactivity and communication. At each one of those points. [00:23:00] Can you improve anything that you are doing with your clients to address any of those three things? I think every business could improve. Mm-hmm by doing that and ultimately bottom line be more human, you know, actually engage with your clients in a human way.

And the other one that comes up, it's not so much as of a complaint, but I'm tied to the proactivity thing, but again, a lot of my clients. Clients say that they wish that their supplier were a bit more proactive and forward thinking and taking time to understand their business and then come up with solutions that were valuable for them.

Mm-hmm . And so be being a bit more proactive with their thinking and, and ideas for how you can serve your clients better, which of course is going to bring you more business. If you are trying to think of ways of doing things better. Yeah. 

Sarah: Can you give us an example of a process that they're [00:24:00] referring to?

Are they referring to like customer experience or more like, you know, delivery process or, or what are, what is an 

Remeny: example? With the, with the. Kind of proactivity or the, that side of things or no, you 

Sarah: were saying processes process. Yeah. 

Remeny: Yeah. Mm-hmm so, yeah. So pro pro processes kind of thinking about how.

You might be delivering your service and you have a team of people working on something and mm-hmm and say your onboarding processes. Okay. You know, actually things might not be clear or, or who's doing what within a team. Yeah. Actually make it really clear who people are, what they're doing and who you should be getting in touch with for what, or you know, when you are delivering.

Part of the service, make sure that the clients are clear on what is being delivered when, how you know, and the timings being really clear with your time scales and things like that. But just giving people [00:25:00] certainty of how things are working with your processes can improve things. And I think that causes frustration when people aren't clear.

Yeah. 

Sarah: That is uh, that's such a good point. I, I see that. You know, happening to, to me when I sign up for something and then, you know, the calendar isn't there and you have to go back and forth to find a date or, or like little things. Right. I'm thinking mainly about my solar printer, heart centered business owners, entrepreneurs, like the onboarding process is so important because that is the first.

Kind of interaction that your client has with you. And so you can really either shine and, you know, just impress the heck of the client or everything can be a bit clunky and things are just not quite organized. And, and, and, and yeah, I think people do notice it. And yeah. If they talk to you, they'd probably say, yeah, isn't that 

Remeny: great?

yes. [00:26:00] And I think as well for the solo printers and the, the, the smaller businesses, it's an interesting one because they might not have a big team, but actually when you're speaking to your clients as a solo, talk to them about. Your processes and talk to them about what they want and how do they want those processes to work?

Do they want weekly meetings? Do they want meetings monthly or, or do you want to do it so that you are, you know, how do you want to be. Treated and nurtured. And, and are you better on the phone or are you better on zoom or, you know, actually it's not, I mean, it's that old saying, you know, doers to unto others, as you do under your unto yourself, actually it's what do your clients want?

It's not how you want to be working with, it's actually making sure that you are adaptable and you're flexible. So I think it's important to. Stay agile. And again, it's that human conversation. Yeah. And trust, you know, make sure that you build that trust and you know, you are honest and if you're gonna be late for something, there's always gonna be hiccups.

That's fine. [00:27:00] Just tell your clients don't tide. Yeah. 

Sarah: Okay. That's I think that's the, that's that integrity piece that is so essential here as well. Like if mm-hmm , you know, be true to your word. Yeah, and we do that in our marketing, but we don't, we also do that in our delivery and I, you know, find myself.

Yeah, it's probably not a good thing, but I find myself judging when I don't see that integrity when, you know, someone promises something and, and I don't see it. I don't get it unless of course there's a good reason and they tell me, oh, I couldn't, you know, couldn't get it on time. Like you just mentioned, you know, communicate.

But the integrity piece I think is so, so 

Remeny: key there. Mm. And I think it goes back to that, you know, the humanizing business. Yeah. If you. If you are proactively human with your clients and the people you're working with, and you are honest and. I, I mean, sounds awful, but I think it opens up the opportunity for if you are going to mess up or you are not going to deliver [00:28:00] something.

Cause you've been really honest and you've been really human and you've told them the truth all the way along. Right. If something's gonna go wrong, they're probably gonna forgive you much quicker. Yeah. If you've actually been upfront and say, look, sorry, this has happened and I will do what I can to make this happen.

Yeah. People appreciate. Honesty. 

Sarah: Yeah, it feels like I have this image of a, of a piggyback, you know, every time you did something good, you did something on time. There's like, you know, some money in your piggyback and then finally you're like, Ooh, I messed this one up. They're like, oh, it's fine. You know, piggy bank is full.

So yes. So it really feels, yeah, you're right. They they'll forgive you much easier than yeah. Than if you kind of emptied the bank account 

Remeny: more . Yes, exactly. And then the other thing that it reminds me of, again, from a lot of people's feedback is, is having the courage to challenge your clients. And again, I think for like solo pronouns or any business, but I [00:29:00] think the idea is, you know, you are the expert, you should be confident in what you're going to be delivering and your clients.

Yes. You know, they say clients are always right, but they're not always right. And they don't know everything. And actually, I think it's important to have the confidence to challenge your clients sometimes and tell them, no, you know, this isn't. Quite right. I don't think this is gonna get you the results you want, you know, have a discussion with them and be brave about the fact that you know, your stuff and, you know, have that human conversation.

Don't just say yes, yes, yes. Mm-hmm because then when things go wrong. Well, You've got you. Haven't got a leg to stand on if you said, well, you know, yes, I just did what you said, but I mean, you, you can PR maybe just hide behind that, but I think you get better results. If you can actually be honest about your belief, don't just do what you want.

And also don't just say, yes, I'll deliver, I'll deliver the I'll deliver because that's what you want. If you can't say so. Yeah. So [00:30:00] again, it's having those honest conversations. That's a good 

Sarah: point because I, I, I think that as well, takes courage, right? To tell your client actually, yeah. I don't think that this text or this, you know, whatever it is that they did, it's not gonna.

Go well, you know, like I think you should work on it again, or here's some changes that I suggest and, and, and yes, that's your job actually. That's, you know, what they pay you for is to help. Help guide them through whatever you maybe already have been through, especially in the, in the service business.

Right. So exactly. So yeah, it, it, it, it takes courage, but at the same time, it it's key. And the other thing that came up for me is boundaries. I think that's another thing that, you know, you establish. Boundaries as the, as the entrepreneur that also gives your client kind of You know, it gives those, it [00:31:00] gives them the, the, the, the idea that yes, you're there for them, but they can't abuse you either.

Yeah. So before you were talking about flexibility where flexibility. Yes, it's good to a certain point, but I don't think we need to overstep our boundaries either. No. So that we still have. You know, respect somehow. It's like, oh, I have my personal life as well. And here's where I put the limits on my time or whatever.

Remeny: Yes, no, I absolutely agree. And I think it's, and I think it's fair enough to have those. You've got to have those boundaries and otherwise people will take advantage and, and you've got to have, I mean, you were saying right at the beginning that you know, that the idea of that the partnership, right.

And I'm a really strong believer in. Building again, proactively thinking about your relationships with your clients in a way that's relationship led and not transactional led. It is a partnership it's in your best interest to do a great job for your clients, because it means you can then start [00:32:00] singing and shouting about it and equally your clients should be wanting to shout about you because you've done a great job and it's something you'll both be proud of.

And I think it's, you know, it shouldn't be just about the money and, you know, Again, this, this client, I was just doing an interview for, they love my client and he was, she was saying, you know, quite often he'll come back and I'll say, can you do this? And he is like, well, no, because that's not gonna get you anywhere.

And, and it does him a disservice because he's coming out worse off financially, but she said, but the thing is I trust him completely. So I will always go with him because he. You know, I have used him for years in all my different roles. I could never not work with him. Mm-hmm and we're friends now. And you think, well, gosh, that's what everyone should aspire to.

Yeah. Is having those honest human relationships with your clients. Yeah. Yeah. 

Sarah: The one thing that I keep coming back to in my head is, is, you know, we've talked [00:33:00] about referrals, so we're, we're getting more referrals. How else can we use our clients or customers voice in our marketing? You know, obviously there's the, the testimonials.

I, I think there's definitely positives about that, but at the same time, We're kind of maybe tired of these testimonials because they're all, they're always positives of testimonials, right? Yes. So you're like, well, you know, is that the only thing or is there other things? 

Remeny: Well, I, I, I think that one of, I mean, a number of my clients have come to me because they dunno how to differentiate themselves.

And actually, you know, there's so much out there nowadays and you've got the web, you know, there's so much competition, but one of the things that I find by interviewing people's clients. I find out what it is that they like about the business and why do they work with them? Why did they choose them?

What was the, the message that made them buy mm-hmm ? And if you can get that information, you can then use that [00:34:00] in your marketing. It's not testimonial, right? You start to see those themes and actually you can then start utilizing that in your design and your marketing and your, your processes and, and use the words your clients use.

to describe what you do and why they buy, and then hopefully that'll resonate with your other clients. And I mean, the other thing is, is understanding your ideal clients and understanding why, who they are. And again, why they like you and you like them. And then think, how can I replicate that? Mm-hmm . And so thinking about how you can mirror your ideal clients, you've gotta understand who those ideal clients are and why they're your ideal clients before.

you can do that. Mm-hmm . And so I think again, doing that, doing this piece can be valuable because you can start to recognize that and then plot your ideal customer journey or potential clients and, and move on going that way, using that [00:35:00] in your marketing. Mm-hmm 

Sarah: I'm curious I've heard or read somewhere that, you know, on the testimonial page, again, back to that, how.

Usually we only have very positive testimonials and this one person, I can't remember who it was. It said it's actually not a bad thing to have one, not so great testimonial just to kind of show that the other ones are real, you know? Yes. Not made up. What do you think about 

Remeny: that approach? Well, the first thing that jumped in my mind was that's very brave.

mm-hmm yeah. I think, I mean, it's, you know, I'm thinking about it. And I think one of the things that would be an interesting approach to that is not necessarily in the testimonials, but having a case study mm-hmm where you admit that maybe things didn't go well at the beginning. Yeah. Yeah. And you addressed it.

And even saying it's still a work in process progress. I think that would be a really interesting thing. I think I, I mean, yes. If, if you, if you can do that, [00:36:00] I mean, my own, my only worry about having a negative testimonial is I might think, well, they've scraped the barrel. why did they put this one?

Can they put that one in? That's just really bad, but I think you could do it as a story. Yeah. And, you know, because. Yeah. Showing that you're human and make people make mistakes. Yeah. And, and use it in that way, showing that you 

Sarah: listen. I like to yeah. The idea of using it in a story and, and oftentimes I guess the not so good testimonials you also later realize, well, actually it just probably wasn't the ideal client.

Why did I. You know, accept the work with them. And I, I didn't do my best job because it was just not a great fit. Yeah. And sometimes explaining that then helps the real ideal client realize. Oh, okay. Yeah. Yeah. I'm different. [00:37:00] So I understand why this person was not an ideal fit and, and I am. Yeah. Yeah. 

Remeny: I mean, it's like the whole, you know, Seth golden and the purple cows, you know, you shouldn't be for everyone and actually by honing in on what you are good at and what's special about you.

Yeah. Means you can then get to the right people who will chime and, and you can then collaborate with and work with them. So, yeah, I think it's a, it's a good point, but yeah, I'm not sure how comfortable I'd be putting a bad test to 

Sarah: move me up, but , I haven't tried it yet. Yeah. I, I, I remember when I first launched a marketing, like we're human book I kind of saw, you know, I launched it on Kickstarter and so there was also kind of.

Friends in there or not friends, like, you know, acquaintances that I met networking events and this one guy, he, he was kind enough to send it to me via email first. And he is like, oh, I'm really sorry, but I'm gonna give you a two star review. I'm like, okay, can you [00:38:00] just hold on with that? I'm gonna get some good ones first.

Wow. And, and, and so, yeah, it was just, you know, he was a, a real corporate marketer that yes, quit his job, but he was still very much or still is very much in advertising and, and big, you know, corporate campaigns and stuff. And so, yeah, clearly, you know, a book about marketing, like where human. Didn't resonate with him.

Yeah. So I told him, well, just hold onto it a little bit longer and I haven't gone back to him yet to post 

Remeny: like Hmm. Maybe not yeah. Maybe not. But it's interesting. And I think you're right. It's, it's, it's recognizing that you aren't gonna be for everyone and, and actually that's fine. Yeah. And that's fine.

You know, you're gonna get much more traction with the right people if you get the right story. But again, you know, that's, it's identifying. What the right story is and the right people it are, and then, you know, embracing that. [00:39:00] 

Sarah: Yeah. So, so tell me kind of in closing how you do that with your clients to really make them understand that it's all about the human interactions and, you know, focus on, on the human.

Do they all all understand it when they hear back from their clients? Or is there sometimes also kind of like a defensive reaction? 

Remeny: It varies. I mean, sometimes, you know, I think the thing is if people are using me to speak to their clients, to get that honest feedback they're going to, there are surprises, but they're obviously open to hearing about the need for change possible possibly or improvements or developments.

And that's why they want to use someone like me to do to do that. Right. But I think they. You know, I think, again, that defensive thing is an interesting one because of course that's, you know, people compare me to a marriage counselor for businesses because I'm that safe place that people can talk [00:40:00] to.

Then I will feed it back, even though sometimes it can be quite harsh. Right. But it's then, you know, don't. Despair when you get the negative, because actually the negative is a great opportunity. You can now grow and change and then go back to those clients and say, Hey, look, we recognize that we wanted to develop things and we want to speak to you about how we can make things better with you equally.

It might be that. We recognize we don't wanna work with you, you know, mm-hmm and actually, I mean, I've interviewed people before and I've spoken to my client and said, why are you working with that? with that person. Yeah. You know, they're awful. and actually, you know, that doesn't happen very often, but I think it's kind of, it's recognizing that you, you shouldn't be working with everyone.

Yeah. And actually getting that honest feedback is. Is a gift because then you can improve. So I mean, most of my clients have, you know, taken on board and made the changes and develop things and speak to their clients and their clients really like it. They like the fact that they're [00:41:00] being listened to.

And, and I also think that it's important to be accountable to your clients. So make sure you feed back and you. Keep that process up, but it's about being that human thing is it's. Yeah. It's about proactively being human with your clients. Yeah. And nurturing those relationships, opening those conversations up.

So it's not just me interviewing people. I'll then say to my clients, you know, make sure you schedule time in to speak to your clients. In a way that isn't just about the transactional work. You're not human 

Sarah: clients, please, you know, 

Remeny: oh. And so put those processes in place so that you are, you are speaking to your clients and also remember to speak to clients at different stages of the journey from when you've won or lost project you know, middle of the project end of the project, six months later, you know, just keep those conversations going as a.

As a human talking to a human, you know, actually how's it going? 

Sarah: Exactly. Not just, oh, you wanna do more work together? You know, that's, especially what we hear. It's [00:42:00] like, oh yeah. Follow up six months after so that you can seldom something else. Yes. Well how about just, yeah. Check in. How are you doing?

You know? 

Remeny: Yes, yes. Or if that's, then, then there's also the proactivity bit mm-hmm , which actually, you know, proactively look at how you could help your clients better. You know, look at how their what's happening in their life and their world and what can you do to make it better for them and for their clients.

Mm-hmm and I think that's a an important point. I mean, with COVID I was, you know, it became very much about not just about getting feedback, but it was understanding the client's challenges yeah. With what was going on. And, but then also the opportunities, because, you know, things can be good and Again, another tip that I I've learned from interviewing is that don't look for, don't just give your client solutions, make sure you understand the business and.

Challenges of the clients before you go back with, we [00:43:00] could do this, we could do that. That's just annoying. Mm. You know, actually know why should you give them that, you know, is that gonna be valuable? So, but you need to understand your clients as humans and their business, to be able to serve them better.

Sarah: And that leads back to time and listening, because if you don't take the time and don't listen, well, then. Yes. You're being proactive, but without really knowing what they really want. Yeah, 

Remeny: exactly. Exactly. 

Sarah: Yeah. So where would you say are listeners? So mainly solo printers, small business owners, consulting coaches, where do they start, you know, with finding out more about what their clients really are 

Remeny: thinking?

Well, I think my, I mean, you know, if you are gonna be doing it yourself, either do it so that you Th think about your different clients, your unengaged clients, to your engaged, to your advocates, and think about, you know, put a list together and then think of some questions where you can actually start to [00:44:00] ask them.

Questions about improvement and how you are doing and the service and what they're doing and understanding their pains and their, their challenges, but equally looking at things that you could do to improve your communication or whatever it might be. And then either get someone. In your team who isn't directly involved with your project to interview them or do it yourself.

If you haven't got someone else within your team or someone who's completely external to do it. But I think. You know, obviously if you've got someone external, you get much more impartial, honest feedback, but I think if you're brave enough to do it yourself, your clients will appreciate the fact you are asking their opinion and you are asking for ideas for improvement.

And, and then, but don't just do that. You then need to act on it. so you need to, you know, look at what your clients are saying, and then put a plan into place to actually start to improve whatever it is that they're saying. And then feedback to your clients. Say, Hey, this is what we're doing. Thank you so much for that [00:45:00] advice.

Or those ideas or whatever it might be and be accountable to your clients, but keep the conversation going and also just make sure that even if you aren't interviewing them, like I said earlier, make sure you put a process in place where you are speaking to your clients at different points and so that you can be constantly nurturing those relationships and building that trust.

Sarah: Mm, so good. Yeah. It it's so much more than just your survey monkey or, you know, like yes. Those type form surveys that you send out and then often you don't ever hear back. You're like, wait a minute. I just. You know, spend 10 minutes giving my feedback and then there's no return, like, yes. What's the point.

What's the point. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Do you think those surveys actually work or do we always need to like talk 

Remeny: to the people? I think I think they're good to a point, not too many questions, make it really quick. [00:46:00] Mm-hmm there's things like the net promoter scores. I think it's good to a point because it can give you a flavor for how your clients might be feeling right.

You know, and, and you can get in essence, but then I think. Then potentially pull out a selection that you could actually have a conversation with. Yeah. Because it's that in depth insight that you can then start to really understand what your clients are thinking or feeling. I, and, and again, I think I said earlier is get a range of different clients from happy to unhappy because you'll often get the same feedback, but just in a different way.

And like you were saying with your circle, Actually just asking people for ideas. It's amazing. I mean, it's like, that's what I love about what I do is I'm just getting people to give me lots of ideas to help the business. Yeah. And it's like, well, wow, that was good. Now we've got sort of lots of ideas, how the business, you know, my clients can improve because that's what their clients are saying.

So it's kind of, and they feel special. And if your clients [00:47:00] know that you've done something, they feel heard and seen, they, they feel heard. Yeah. And everyone. To be heard it's such a human thing, you know? So this 

Sarah: has been been so good. Thank you 

Remeny: so much, right. Well, thank you. I hope I haven't gone. Thought got too overexcited about my listening and 

Sarah: I, I know we, we could do another episode just on, on, on this, but it's been really, really good.

Thank you so much. Do share with people where they can find you and learn more about you and your work. 

Remeny: Oh, thank you so much. Well, my website is brilliant in human.com. And I'm easy to find on LinkedIn. It's just linkedin.com. And then I'm Rey, RM E N Y. That's my I mean, I might there's Rey Armitage, but I'm fairly easy to find.

There's not many of me . But yeah. Thank you so much. 

Sarah: Yeah, thank you. I always have one last question and that is what are you grateful for today or this week? 

Remeny: Friends and the support of friends. [00:48:00] mm, I think that's what I would say. Yeah. So 

Sarah: thank you. Thank you. We'll speak again soon. 

Remeny: Definitely. Thank you so much.

Sarah: Thanks F.[00:49:00] [00:50:00] [00:51:00] [00:52:00] 

This week's conversation with Lisa Evans fits under the P of Promotion of the Humane Marketing Mandala. We are talking about telling the stories that matter for your business. As you'll hear in the episode there is a fine line between being vulnerable in telling your story and oversharing.

Lisa is the Director of Speaking Savvy and the Lead Trainer of the Soft Skills Academy. She is a Certified Speaking Professional, Certified Virtual Presenter, TEDx Speaker Coach, Host of the Business Chat Podcast, and Radio Show Host.

She has been coaching clients to become stand-out presenters and speakers for over 10 years and her area of expertise is helping senior leaders to tell better business stories. Before becoming a coach Lisa spent over two decades as a health professional and began her career as a midwife. One of her clients named her The Story Midwife and it kinda stuck!

In this episode, you'll learn about telling the stories that matter for your business as well as...

 

• How to know which stories matter (every story has a reason and a season)
• Your origin story and ways to tell it
• Lisa's personal story and how a health setback led her to be an exceptional speaker
• Encouragement and tips to start with storytelling
• And much more…

Lisa's Resources

 

Lisa's Website

Lisa's Podcast: Business Chat with Lisa Evans

Get a complimentary 30-minute coaching call with Lisa

Connect with Lisa on:

Twitter

Facebook

Instagram

LinkedIn

Sarah's Resources

Watch this episode on Youtube

(FREE) Sarah's One Page Marketing Plan

(FREE) Sarah Suggests Newsletter

(FREE) The Humane Business Manifesto

(FREE) Gentle Confidence Mini-Course

Marketing Like We're Human - Sarah's book

The Humane Marketing Circle

Authentic & Fair Pricing Mini-Course

Podcast Show Notes

We use Descript to edit our episodes and it's fantastic!

Email Sarah at [email protected]

Thanks for listening!

 

After you listen, check out Humane Business Manifesto, an invitation to belong to a movement of people who do business the humane and gentle way and disrupt the current marketing paradigm. You can download it for free at this page. There's no opt-in. Just an instant download.

Are you enjoying the podcast?  The Humane Marketing show is listener-supported—I'd love for you to become an active supporter of the show and join the Humane Marketing Circle. You will be invited to a private monthly Q&A call with me and fellow Humane Marketers -  a safe zone to hang out with like-minded conscious entrepreneurs and help each other build our business and grow our impact.  — I'd love for you to join us! Learn more at humane.marketing/circle

Don't forget to subscribe to the show on iTunes or on Android to get notified for all my future shows and why not sign up for my weekly(ish) "Sarah Suggests Saturdays", a round-up of best practices, tools I use, books I read, podcasts, and other resources.

Raise your hand and join the Humane Business Revolution.

Warmly,

Sarah

Imperfect Transcript of the show

We use and love Descript to edit our podcast and provide this free transcript of the episode. And yes, that's an affiliate link.

Sarah: [00:00:00] [00:01:00] [00:02:00] [00:03:00] [00:04:00] [00:05:00] [00:06:00] [00:07:00] hi, Lisa, how are you today? 

Lisa: Hi, Sarah. I'm delighted to be here. 

Sarah: Oh, I'm so happy to have this conversation. It's kind of, is there a second or third? At least I know that I was on your podcast earlier. And so now I get the pleasure to have you online, which is wonderful. And we chose this topic of storytelling, which I know.

Close to your heart. And so I wanted to know if you have always considered yourself a good storyteller. Tell us about that. 

Lisa: Yeah, well, I've [00:08:00] always considered myself a storyteller. Not necessarily a good storyteller, mainly because of my age, because definitely before the internet, we didn't even have a color TV until dad bought one home for the Montreal Olympics.

So that was a long time ago. So I grew up. On stories when I was little. And then that carried on into my, of late teenage years and early twenties when I began my nurse training. So when I became a nurse at a young age, I was 17 and a half. We didn't have counseling, we didn't have psychology services. We had to suck it up and get on with it.

So when we had a bad day and we saw a lot of trauma, which you do when you're a nurse who working in acute care, the only outlet we really had in order. Debrief with our colleagues about our day was through stories. So stories also can be used to heal as well. So I guess that I became a natural storyteller and it was then later in life that I joined.

[00:09:00] The pieces of the puzzle together and got more interested in helping entrepreneurs and business owners and even large organizations in how to tell several different stories, their own story, their signature story, their leadership story, and the story about their brands and their services and, and products.

So I've definitely learned how to tell stories better, but I think we're. We are all storytellers. We all have the, the, the information that we need. We've got a lifetime of, of stories. It's just learning how to get those out and feel comfortable sharing the stories. Wow.

Sarah: I'm yeah. I'm so curious uh, about one thing as well, because when I heard you speaking, I was thinking. What about what does reading have to do with storytelling? Right? Because when we're reading, we're not actually well telling a story, but we're definitely absorbing stories. So were you also a, a big reader?

Lisa: I was a big reader. And I think that today definitely reading helps you to experience the [00:10:00] characters and the landscapes and the plot and the, and the story in a very sensory way. And of course we need that sensory language, but I think that we need to always be mindful that writing is, is very, very different to, to speaking.

And when somebody. Reads from a page or speaks something that they have completely memorized or that it's been written to be read. It doesn't sound right when it's, when it's spoken. So definitely yes. Read to immerse yourself in, in characters and, and sensory sensory language, but never read your story out loud.

Sarah: Mm, that, yeah. Okay. That's interesting. So, so it helps to tell better stories, I guess, because we. You know, we kind of, I noticed that when writing my own book it helps to, I'm a, I'm an avid reader. Like I read so many books just like you, I know that you are always posting about the latest books you're reading.

Yeah. And, and, and yeah, I think [00:11:00] reading books definitely also then helps you with writing because you just kind of know. You know, the turns of phrases you just kind of yeah. It, it just kind of flows better, I guess, as compared to if you weren't reading at all. But yeah, yeah. With the storytelling that it's not the same.

If you read your story, 

Lisa: obviously. And you definitely don't need to be a good writer, cuz that can be a barrier for many people. A lot of my stories, I don't even write down, I just use my phone. I hit voice record. I've got an idea for a story. I'll just speak it into a voice memo. I might be walking around or doing something.

I get an idea in my head or I'll draw it. I, I like doing little graphics. So if, if you don't consider yourself to be a good writer, Doesn't mean to say you can't share stories. I 

Sarah: think that's a good reminder for people because sometimes we do get stuck with the, you do writing, right. And, and another thing people tell me, [00:12:00] tell me about my books is like, it's an easy read.

And, and so at the beginning I was like, is that a compliment or like a hidden criticism, but I do kind of write, like I would speak. Right? Yeah. And so I'm not a, you know, a novel writer. Definitely not. And so I think for stories, if we think about, you know, social media, it, these stories need to be told exactly how you would tell them, I guess, in spoken words, would you agree?

Lisa: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Makes it more authentic. Makes it more real. And I think that's definitely a, a compliment, sir. If somebody says that it's an easy read. that's good. Nobody wants a hard read that they've got to struggle to get their head around. So that's awesome. Well done. 

Sarah: thank you. Yeah. Like the inner critic voice kind of like, well, I wanted it to be sophisticated but, but yeah, no, that's not who I am.

How do we then [00:13:00] know which stories to tell? Because I think I even notice myself sitting, you know, I use mainly LinkedIn and so I sit there and go, okay, what kind of story can I tell? And you're surrounded by stories all day long, but then when it comes to actually sharing them, your brain kind of blocks you.

And you're like, well, which one. 

Lisa: Yeah. I, I think the best thing that I like to do, and I encourage others to do is to start a story bank, just like a piggy bank. You're collecting your, your stories. There may only be little, little snippets of information or anecdotes or examples, and you just store them up somewhere.

Some people use a note. Book or an index card system or an app like Evernote or, or OneNote. And so you're capturing your, your stories. And then when you want a story down the track to illustrate a particular point, you've got lots of material at hand and, you know, stories have got a, they've got a reason.

They've got a season and. The most [00:14:00] important thing about a story is it's gotta be ready to tell it's gotta be ripe. It's gotta be that perfect moment because there may be stories in our lives that for whatever reason, we're not yet ready to share. And I think that we've always got to remember that we are the curators of our own stories and we get to choose which stories to tell and who we are gonna share them with.

But the most important thing of all is. The story that we're telling ourselves. So we've gotta get rid of our own negative narratives and those stories that don't help us in order to be able to step up and speak and share whether that's marketing your book or writing your book or believing yourself, or putting out things in business.

So we've really got two sorts of stories. We've got our internal stories and our own narratives. And we've got the stories that, that we share. So I think it can be hard just like it can be hard to sit in front of a blank workbook and, and come up with some [00:15:00] writing, same with finding stories. But if you, if you start collecting stories, like have a, have a bank of them, then you'll, you'll never run out.

Sarah: Hmm. Yeah, that's a good idea. It could be, could be like a notebook, but it could also be like snippets. You know, if you're more into using online tools, it could be Evernote or whatever Trello 

Lisa: board yeah. You using, or even Pinterest or voice notes, you know, voice notes are great because they sync across all your devices.

It doesn't matter where you are. You can hit record and just do a 62nd voice note and give it a, a tag. Or a keyword and you'll be able to, to find it again. So that's the important thing, particularly as, as you get older is you, you might see something or hear something, oh, that that'll make a great story and you forget all about it.

So not only you wanna quickly capture the essence of that story, but you also also want to take a moment and tune into how that story made you. Mm, because it's, it's that [00:16:00] emotion that, that has that impact. So you ask yourself, you know, if you see something and you, and you think, you know, that's not right, or isn't that wonderful, you know, it's evoked an emotional response in you.

So it's important when we capture our story to also put. And I felt joy or I felt gratitude, or I felt frustrated or angry about something that's that's happening. Cuz that will also help you when you are then telling your story. You're reliving that story and that experience to dial into that emotion that you felt at the time.

Sarah: Yeah. So good. So many different things I wanna kind of go back to that you just said. So the first thing is obviously the emotion. Yeah. That's where we connect. Right? If we're telling a, a story in, for example, what I sometimes see is, is, you know, stories being told in the third person, like on someone's website, you know, the about page, for example, if it, if I read an about page and instant in the third person, [00:17:00] There is no emotional connection.

I don't feel connected to the person. And so I think that would probably be a, be a first, I don't know if you agree at this telling your story, obviously, and your first person. 

Lisa: Absolutely. Yeah. Present tense. First person is always better. And, and often when I'm coaching people in their, in their story and we might do the, you know, stop, stop, start when I'm coaching them, they might say something like and then we broke up and I moved to America.

I go, hang on, hang on. You broke up. How did you feel? Mm. Yeah, I was devastated. I couldn't stop crying for a week. You know, they were brushing over that emotion. Right. And, and that's the important part. Even if you don't, don't decide to share at all, but you've still gotta think about, okay. How did you feel when you got that call and the breakup happened?

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. 

Sarah: That's so good. I think you're right. We're we. Wanting to kind of quickly get our story out there. And so we [00:18:00] just kind of share headlines and when you read it, it's like, you know, nothing, nothing happens where on the other hand, you don't have to exaggerate. I as the humane marketer, I'm always careful also about, you know, using pain points in, in, in stories and things like that.

So you don't have to exaggerate feelings either and, you know, make people, people feel bad or, or, or worse. But yeah, that's how we connect is with the emotion and with the feelings. The other thing you brought up is this idea I guess kind of a vulnerability, because you said there's a, every story has a reason and a season, and I love that.

It's such a good way to remember. You know, what's the reason of the story. And is it the right season, I guess, to tell this story and, and that goes with, you know, timely, current events out there, I guess, but it's also for ourselves. Do I feel like I am [00:19:00] willing to share this story or, or not? So what's your take on vulnerability and probably also kind of this trend of sharing too much information to get something.

Yeah, 

Lisa: that has become very apparent, you know, the work of the wonderful Brene brown Brene brown has been around for a long time, but her work was popularized through the Netflix series. And I think that your vulnerability became the word. And I think there was a very fine line between vulnerability and overs.

We do need to be ready to tell our story. If you are standing in front of a group of people and you cannot get through your story without breaking down and falling apart, probably not the right time to tell your story, you probably haven't done the inner work. You haven't done enough. Growing you haven't done enough healing.

Now we can get caught off guard and our emotions can bubble to the surface, but generally you've gotta have done the inner work. And then I [00:20:00] also see I've been in, in audiences where somebody's done the inner work and they feel that their story is ready to share, but they haven't really thought about how their story is potentially going to land and impact.

With the audience. We don't want to trigger our audience and leave them walking out, feeling low and feeling, feeling horrid. So we've gotta carefully craft that story that even if we're sharing a story that doesn't have a happy ending and that's life, not every story has to have a, a happy ending, but we are leaving the audience with something to take away that.

Inspirational or poignant or has a real meaning and purpose to it. So every story does need to have a, a, a carry out. Yeah. So I think that there's a very fine line with the vulnerability and, and the potentially oversharing, but at the end of the day, it's gotta feel right for you because if you're up.

In front of an audience, whether it's in front of a [00:21:00] camera or on stage. And you feel as though you've gotta push yourself to be more vulnerable, you're going to look awkward and uncomfortable. If that's how you feel inside people are going to see that. And then if you are up the front looking awkward and uncomfortable, how does that make your audience feel?

They feel awkward and uncomfortable too. Right? So it's really picking. Right time. It's tough. 

Sarah: Yeah. And I, I totally agree with you and I, I would go even further and say you know, there there's been marketers, unfortunately also who, who kind of are in this authenticity trend and then use stories with a lot of vulnerability in order to get something, to, you know, sell more of them or sell more of their coaching or sell, you know?

And so that's also not. What we want from our or audience, we don't want to use our story in a way that gets something we want to [00:22:00] yes. Connect with our audience, make sure that they resonate with our story, but not in a manipulative way. This, like I've seen this trend where marketers could start telling all these old stories Just because, you know one guy started telling that he was abused when he was seven years old and then all of a sudden it was like one after the other.

And, and so you start to actually question the truth of these stories, which is sad because you know, who knows maybe they were all true, but it kind of became this thing where we felt like what's going on here. This is a marketer. Is he doing this? You know, for a reason and for the wrong reason, 

Lisa: maybe.

Yeah. Yeah. And I think that, you know, these days people have got more of a BS meter that they can possibly sense when one of those stories is, is coming and, and people switch off to that these days, I believe. 

Sarah: Yeah. Yeah, you're right. The BS meter the [00:23:00] last, last two years for sure has gone, gone up a lot.

And so yeah, I I'm just, and I think that's also, I told you before we started recording I'm kind of not a big fan anymore of this idea of the, the hero arc story, you know, where they started to feel like. All the same to me where, you know, there's a struggle, we overcome it. And then there's a huge, happy ending.

And now a millionaire. And I don't have any problems anymore to me, even if that's true, that's just not an interesting story to me anymore. And, and yet it's used and recommended in coaching a lot. So what's your take on, on kind of these artificial stories? 

Lisa: Yeah, I think that it definitely helps to have a structure to your story and to have a framework, particularly if you are learning to tell stories, it, it does give you some, some guidelines.

You don't have to follow the arc from one point [00:24:00] to another. You can start at. At any point, really? I think that definitely a story does need to have an element of tension. A story does need to have some conflict and some change. So every story is evidence of a transformation that's taken place. But the thing is, people think about struggle on conflict as huge people think about transformation.

As I became a millionaire, I climbed Everest. I conquered the world. No, it can be a very small transformation. It can be somebody said something. And that made you think about your own behavior or your actions, and you decided to do things differently or you decided to apologize. That's a transformation.

So it doesn't have to be huge. You don't have to have a rags to richest story to make a great storyteller there. The best stories are in the simple, the best stories are in the ordinary. If you think about a trip to the supermarket, particularly in the tough times that we're in now, you know, [00:25:00] you never get a whole lot when you're just getting to go out these days, a ride on public transport, an interaction with a stranger, a customer service experience.

They're all. Possible stories that you can, that you can tell. And we certainly want to move away from stories that are all about me. Nobody wants to hear an all about me story. Nobody cares about your story until they care how much your story helps them. Right. So we also need to be mindful of, of that.

What's the point, what's the purpose of your story? We need to set an intention in all of our speaking, even more so in our storytelling. So I do like the, I do like the arc. I do like some frameworks and, and formulas, and I certainly sort of teach modifications of those, but just think about the small things, because the small things that are more ordinary are more relatable.

Sarah: Yeah. I like that a lot. What I also did in, in [00:26:00] the marketing, like we're human book. Instead of telling this hero a story I told the beginning of the hero, a story, and then I said, look, I'm still in the middle of this thing. Right. I'm not there yet. And I feel like it, this really connects with a lot of my readers because they can relate.

They're like, Look, she's not the hero. She's just like us in the middle of figuring things out. She has a message to share, but it's not like, oh, you know, she's now made it and has figured it all out. So I feel like instead of always sharing stories where we have figured it all out these smaller stories, like you mentioned before, That really show we're human as well.

And we're just in the middle of things, just like everybody else. Those are the stories that really speak to me. 

Lisa: Yeah, absolutely. And, and it's often a good story. We'll have somebody else as the [00:27:00] hero. In that story and you as the business owner or the leader or the organization, you are the mentor in, in the story.

You're the guide. You're the guru who offers a, a handout and a help to, to somebody else to make their life better. So you can also think about where you wanna position yourself in, in the story and often the best place for you is as the mentor. So you're really shining a light on somebody else's journey.

mm-hmm and yeah, there's a little piece about how you helped, but that's very much in, in the background, 

Sarah: us introverts. We really like that. Right. We like to shine the lights on, on others. 

Lisa: Definitely. Yeah. All about us. Yeah. I love that. Definitely. 

Sarah: What about your story then? I, I know it, I kind of read it a bit in the intro, but I would love for you to explain a bit about your story.

Lisa: Yes. I began my career as a midwife. I'm from London and I trained as a nurse and became a midwife. And then I specialized, it [00:28:00] became a neonatal intensive care midwife. And I always wanted to be a nurse. I knew that I wanted to be a nurse and that was to be my, my forever career. And it was through my career that I got the opportunity to move.

Australia. And I spent almost two decades working as an intensive care midwife. So much joy, helping to bring new life into the world and look after tiny babies on life support. And then one day my life changed drastically when a virus destroyed. Most of my hearing, I was left with a tiny amount of sound on one side only.

And because the intensive care environment is very technical, very challenging and demanding. I could no longer do that job. So I literally had to reinvent myself and, and think what an earth am I going to do? And that was tough. I was already 40 wondering, you know, who's gonna have me, what am I gonna do?

And also navigating permanent and severe. Hearing loss. I got on a research trial and I got the amazing [00:29:00] gift of a cochlear implant. And that was the beginning of me learning to hear and speak all over again in a very different way. And that was a very long journey. And it was in that journey, rehabilitating using the cochlear implant that I got interested in speaking, and I started to sign up with mentors and coaches and various programs.

From around the, the world and went on this speaking journey and reconnected with my, my love of, of storytelling and then decided that I wanted to be a, a speaker coach and a storyteller and a professional speaker, and, and to also teach and, and help and help others. So these days I work with. With leaders, helping leaders to have high, high impact communication skills, presentation skills, speaking of course, business storytelling.

And a couple of years ago, one of my clients, when he was introducing me, we'd had a bit of a chat and he asked me, have I always been a speaker? And I told him, I used to be a midwife. And some people are like, whoa. You know, it's a chalk and cheese. [00:30:00] And when he introduced me in front of the crowd, he introduced me as the story midwife and is kind.

Up because I do still bring life into the world, but very different. I encourage people to bring their stories into the world. So I still feel as though I've got a wonderful position of privilege, being able to nurture and, and birth those stories. So, you know, sometimes in life we don't get to choose.

We get sent on this huge detour and. hopefully the detour ends up to be a scenic route. So there's not a day that goes by when I don't miss being a midwife. But I absolutely love, love what I do now. 

Sarah: Mm. What a beautiful story. Yeah. That is just wonderful. And it just, it just strikes me like this, you know, connecting the dots backwards, and now you are.

Really into speaking and telling stories and, and having [00:31:00] lost your hearing, it just kind of like strikes me as well. Obviously that was the next step. If you lose something right, then you really want to highlight it and make this your thing now because you gained it back and it's. 

Lisa: Yeah, just, yeah. And I hadn't really thought about it at the time.

I had no idea I was lost for quite some, some time and right. And in that space of, you know, why me and what am I gonna do? Yeah. I felt sorry for myself for a while, which is that natural or grieving process. But I, I remember I had a, an interview on, on radio and when they wrote up the blur for the interview, They gave the piece, the title in losing her hearing.

She discovered her voice. And I thought, I like that. I'm gonna use that. And it's true. And I remember when I went to see the professor in order to get onto the research trial, it was competitive and he only had so many places. He had a lot of people who could have done with being part of the program and.[00:32:00] 

We did all the clinical tests and the, and the sort of health related questions. And then he turned to me and he said, you know, I've got more people who could benefit than there are places available. If I choose you to be on the program, how will you share the gift? And I had no idea what he was talking about.

I, I really was sort of stumped and I looked at him and I said, oh, I'll, I'll become a better listener. And he said, okay. And I thought, well, that, that would be a good step. We can all do with becoming a better listener. And it was only several years down the track that I thought my role in life, my purpose is now to help others to use their voice because I've discovered.

Sarah: Hmm. Yeah. It's beautiful. When you were speaking also, I paid attention when you said, well, I paid attention all the time, but when you said you know, I learned to listen and speak differently. And I think you highlighted that before. So I I'm curious how, how. [00:33:00] How is it different now? 

Lisa: Yeah, it's a good, it's a good question.

The sound that I get from the cochlear implant is artificial and it sounds a completely different to natural, natural sound mm-hmm . And so you not only have. To learn to hear, but you've gotta lay down new neural pathways in order to be able to turn that sound into something that resembles human human speech.

And initially when you get the device and you have the sort of the turning on ceremony you can't hear anything at all. It, it, it is completely artificial and it just sounds like noise. And because I've got a small amount of natural sound remaining. My brain has to merge those two signals together.

The artificial sound that comes from the device and the natural sound that, that, that I'm hearing. So you are bypassing the natural way of, of hearing. So it is a, it is very much a learned. [00:34:00] Process. And it takes a huge amount of focus and a lot of rehabilitation in, in learning to, and, and maybe it's a lot easier for younger people who, who get a cochlear implant.

And I also think that it's potentially easier for people who have never heard. Who were born deaf. I mean, you've gotta have a particular type of hearing loss to be able to get a cochlear implant. It's not suitable for, for everybody, but yeah, it was a considerable, a considerable journey and a lot of frustration.

Yeah. And a lot of trial and error with the amazing research team. 

Sarah: Mm. Yeah. Yeah. Just to tell you from, you know, the outside and, and listeners don't see that, but if you're watching the YouTube video, whenever I speak, I really. See on your face, how you're listening intensely. And obviously now I know your story and I know [00:35:00] why, but it's just so beautiful to have someone listen to you so intensely, you know, it feels like, wow, she's really taking in my information and paying attention to me.

So, so I can, yeah, I can see the, the really huge benefit and I'm sure all your clients. Are like, wow. I really feel heard and seen by 

Lisa: Lisa. Thank you. That's a compliment. I hope they feel that way too. yes. 

Sarah: So we, we are getting to wrap up, but I, I would like you, if you can, to just share some final encouragement and, and maybe tips that you could think of for someone who who's yeah.

Struggling with this idea of telling stories. 

Lisa: Yeah. So look around you. There is a story in everything, whether it is a trip to the supermarket or remembering your first day at school, or applying for a job, getting turned down for a promotion. Yeah. These are all [00:36:00] potential story opportunities. Write them down, capture them and remember that every story does need to have a point.

Or a purpose. So ask yourself, how did I feel? What did I learn? And what's that lesson that I want to share with others. And remember that the most important story is the one that we tell ourselves. So do the inner work, do the inner work to get rid of those unhelpful stories that no longer service that perhaps we've had hanging around for a long, long time.

Because if you have got whatever your own story is, you know, you get to choose what the next chapter. It's in your control. Yeah. Get out there and share your story. Start off small. But other people are always fascinated by our stories because humans are hardwired to tell stories. We've always done it.

Sarah: Yeah, thank you so much. I, I wanna repeat the point and purpose. That's what I really take away in the reason and season that's a, a good one to an easy [00:37:00] one to remember as well. Like the, every story needs a reason and there needs to be the, you know, the season needs to be right and feel right. To you as well.

This has been very beautiful. Thank you so much for this conversation. Lisa, do you tell us I have one more question, but before that do tell us where people can connect with you where they can find out more about your work. 

Lisa: Sure. Thank you for inviting me. I love your work. Sarah people can connect with me via my website, speaking savvy.com.au.

I'm also on LinkedIn, always happy to have a chat and share a story with anyone online. So I do do a complimentary discovery call and obviously I love hearing stories. So that's how people can best reach out to me. Wonderful. 

Sarah: And then my last question is what are you grateful for today or this week, 

Lisa: Lisa?

Today I'm this is probably gonna sound strange where the [00:38:00] opposite sides of the world. I'm grateful today that it's a little bit cooler. I was actually able to have a good night's sleep. The 1st of March, we are now in autumn. Here in Australia. And so we've got temperatures that are really beautiful and to see the, the flowers and the birds and the breeze.

So today I'm grateful for the, the wonderful climate that I live in here in Perth, Western Australia. 

Sarah: Wonderful. Yeah, I could, the sun is shining today here too, but I could use some warmer temperatures as well. thank you so much for taking the time. Lisa, it's been an absolute delight. Thank 

Lisa: you, Sarah.[00:39:00] [00:40:00] 

In this muse episode I share some insights about my experiment with reducing the number of episodes from 4 per month to 2 per month. 

I'm also running a Giveaway on Goodreads and listeners can win one of 100 copies of the Marketing Like We're Human book if they enter at https://www.goodreads.com/giveaway/show/348028

 

In this week's episode, I talk to Janene Liston about the P of Pricing. We talked about understanding how to price your offers.

Janene is a highly trusted Pricing Consultant & Business Coach working with small businesses, startups and entrepreneurs across industries and the globe. She's also a Certified Pricing Professional who has been helping businesses improve pricing and profits for over 25 years.

Her mission is to empower small businesses to be more sustainably profitable. Helping them know the value of their offer and more effectively implement their pricing. Ensuring they can confidently create, communicate and charge for the value they deliver.

She's the host of Live with the Pricing Lady, the Podcast, a European public speaking Champion and a sought-after podcast and radio show guest. Watch out, her passion for pricing is contagious

In this episode, you'll learn about understanding how to price your offers as well as...

why pricing is so darn difficult

• Value Pricing and what the heck that means anyways
• Pricing psychology and when pricing gets icky
• How to apply fair and humane Pricing if we want a Triple Win: win for ourselves, win for our clients and win for the planet
• What confidence has to do with Pricing
• Discounting our prices
• And much more…

Janene's Resources

 

Janene's Website

Live with the Pricing Lady

Check out Janene's free resources

Connect with Janene on:

Twitter

Facebook

YouTube

LinkedIn

Sarah's Resources

Watch this episode on Youtube

(FREE) Sarah's One Page Marketing Plan

(FREE) Sarah Suggests Newsletter

(FREE) The Humane Business Manifesto

(FREE) Gentle Confidence Mini-Course

Marketing Like We're Human - Sarah's book

The Humane Marketing Circle

Authentic & Fair Pricing Mini-Course

Podcast Show Notes

We use Descript to edit our episodes and it's fantastic!

Email Sarah at [email protected]

Thanks for listening!

 

After you listen, check out Humane Business Manifesto, an invitation to belong to a movement of people who do business the humane and gentle way and disrupt the current marketing paradigm. You can download it for free at this page. There's no opt-in. Just an instant download.

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Imperfect Transcript of the show

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Sarah: [00:00:00] [00:01:00] [00:02:00] [00:03:00] [00:04:00] [00:05:00] [00:06:00] [00:07:00] Hi, Janine. So happy to have this conversation with you. Yay. I'm so glad Malita introduced 

Janene: the two of us. Yeah, me too. Great to 

Janene: be 

Sarah: here. So Janine, we're gonna be talking about pricing. It's kind of one of the, I'd say it's definitely a hard topic. You know how I have the humane marketing mandala and one of the pieces.

Pricing. And so I always have in each kind of season, I [00:08:00] have one of the episodes about pricing and it's definitely one that a lot of people listen to cuz let's face it. It's not easy for us business owners. So I wanna ask you that question, why it's not easy, but maybe for before that tell us a little bit about you and how you got into pricing.

They call you the pricing lady. So , so tell us how that all came about. Yeah. And yeah. Share a little bit of your 

Janene: story with us. Okay. Yeah. So thank you. First of all, for having me here and welcome to all those of you who are watching and listening. I started my career. I'm a us born. I grew up in California.

I started my career as a structural engineer and after a few years of practicing, I decided it wasn't what I wanted and ended up. Long story short ended up in product management. And the first thing that they handed me was a price list and it was 20 years old and without any commercial background or any real marketing knowhow, I knew [00:09:00] something was wrong with that and took it upon myself to not just redo my price list, but all the price lists and really.

Gave everything a refresh. And that was really my first foray or my first experience in pricing. I can honestly say I had no real background in it. But I just knew that was wrong and that we needed to at least fix that. After it was with that company, I came to Switzerland in 2001. And when I decided to stay here, then I was hired as a global pricing manager for Siemens building technologies.

And that was in 2004. And it's been all pricing all the time. Since then. So it's been nearly 20 years of just pricing. I worked in also in another industry in the agricultural industry agrichemicals and seeds industry for a while. And then in 2015 started my own business. And at the time I didn't know what to call myself.

A coach, a consultant. And I, you know, I didn't really care for either of the terms. [00:10:00] And one day I was explaining to someone that when I would do projects in the corporate world, I was traveling all over the place and I'd walk into a new location with a new group of people to kick off a pricing project and, you know, walk up to them and start introducing myself.

Hey, I'm Janine, I'm here for the pricing project and they go, yeah, I know you, you're the pricing lady. . And she goes, well, why didn't you call yourself that? I was like, I dunno, , let's do it. And so now I use it, I leaned into it fully and, and use it. And I, I find it very easy. It's a nice way to, first of all, introduce myself because it always puts a smile.

Either people are confused at first if they're not native English speakers, they're like, what, what is that? But usually people smile. It's easy to remember. Right. And it sort of breaks the ice. So it, it, for me, it fits the bill of not saying I'm a coach or I'm a consultant. Which makes me a little bit more general, but it puts me in [00:11:00] a very different position.

It's very clear what what I work with and what I do. Yeah. And it kind of has this 

Sarah: familiar tone to it. It's not like, oh, I'm the pricing expert. You know, it's like, I'm the pricing lady. I, I know a thing or two 

Janene: about pricing. it's approachable. That was one of the things that when I worked on my brand. I kept using the word fun.

And of course the people who are with the branding experts were like, no, don't use the F word . Yeah. You know, cause a lot of people try to do that and it's very general. And I, I understood that. And then one day I realized it's it was about being approachable. Most small businesses may feel that, you know, consultants are out of reach for them.

You know that it's not something that's really available to them. And I really wanted to work with small businesses and I am approachable. And you know, I work a little bit differently than you might with a typical consultant. Although I can work in that way. I, I prefer to work with people in, [00:12:00] in a more approachable way.

End fun pricing can be fun. And I've actually had people tell me specifically that, you know, they really dreaded going to that workshop, that pricing workshop or course, or whatever it was, but it was actually really a lot of fun for them. And to me that was, you know, high praise . 

Sarah: Yeah. Yeah, totally. It's funny because for me as well, I think about pricing and, and it's like, you know, math.

And numbers and that kind of stuff comes up and, and, and that's only a very small part of it. I'm sure. But we'll dig into that a little bit today. So, so yeah. Why don't we go back to my initial question that I thought, you know, why is it so hard for us to price? As small business owners to put a price on our services, what have you found out over the last 20 years?

Janene: Great question, Sarah. So in my experience, there's really two reasons. [00:13:00] One is that nobody ever taught you how Hmm. Yeah, right. It's like, you know, if nobody ever taught you how to ride a bike, you'd figure it out possibly by yourself. But you'd have quite a bit of scrapes and bruises and bumps and maybe some mild trauma depending on, on, you know, how quickly you were able to do it.

And it's the same with anything else. As well as with pricing, if nobody's ever showed you, how then, why would you expect for it to be just something that you would know how to do? And it would be easy and without any struggle, it's a little bit illogical to think that it would be nobody's ever pulled us aside in school and said, okay, Sarah, 30 years from now, when you start your own business, this is how you're gonna set the price of your, your packages.

Right. They don't do that. And funnily enough, most people don't realize. While they do teach about pricing in MBAs. They don't actually teach you how to go about setting your prices. [00:14:00] Mm, they talk about, well, there's, you know, penetration strategies and skimming strategies and there's price elasticity. They use all these big fancy words, but they don't actually tell you how to go about setting those prices.

So yeah, most people don't know how that's the first reason. Right. 

Sarah: The second reason. Can I just go in there as sure. Because also what came to mind is for the MBAs probably cause I've worked at an international management school here in Loza and they have a big MBA program. And so I think when they teach about pricing, they look at big companies.

They don't necessarily look at the small business owner and the small entrepreneur as an example. Right. And that, I think also probably leads to the, I don't know what you're gonna say for the second reason, but I have a feeling it has to do more with the, the personal aspect as well. 

Janene: Yes, it does. Mm-hmm it does you're right.

I would say those programs are geared towards more corporates. Yeah. Uh, [00:15:00] Yet again I would say. A lot of corporates are not very good at setting and managing their prices either. Mm. Yeah. I mean, even the corporates are not good at it. How are we gonna figure it? They do. They do struggle with it. They struggle with different aspects of it.

Mm-hmm but if you think about in the larger company, who's usually responsible for setting the prices. A lot of times it's the product manager, right. And the product manager's background is not a marketing one. Right. They're an engineer or they're an agronomist or they're a scientist, you know, or a chemist.

Right? They have no commercial background. No. Yeah, it's true. Yeah. So it it's, it's. It's a very important aspect and a larger company. A lot of people are responsible for it. Of course, in a smaller company, you gotta wear all the hats, the finance hat and the marking hat and the sales hat, so on and so forth.

And that comes to, like you said, the second aspect of it, which is very personal and it has to do with [00:16:00] your core beliefs around money, success and worthiness mm-hmm . Yeah. And that is, you know, that is really something. Comes in full force for most small business owners because it becomes it shouldn't.

But for many people it feels like that price that they're setting is somehow a reflection of them personally. Right. And being able to make. You know that disconnect, you know, you're not, I, I used to have a program called speak, believe in charge your worth. And I always had a real problem with charge your worth being in that phrase.

I couldn't find a better way to say it. So I stuck with it for a while, but because it's really, it's not your worth. It's the value of what your products are, services or. Bring the customer and yeah, being specific with your language in that way can be very important. Most of us have hangups with money, success, and worthiness that play a sabotage role in the [00:17:00] background of our decision.

So I was just got off the call with a client who is Dutch. And I've had several clients who are Dutch and they always think that the price has to be the lowest price in the market. Mm. But that is, you know, something that comes from in large part, the Dutch culture from their families, from their upbringing that, you know, it always has to be the lowest price.

Now, many of those clients are operating in Switzerland where people are. Generally willing to pay a bit more. They're not always looking for the cheapest solution and yet they're operating with this completely other mindset in a market that doesn't match that mindset. And it really makes it hard for them.

To feel like they can charge more. So that's just one example. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, we 

Sarah: could do an hour just on 

Janene: this topic alone. Right. 

Sarah: And, and, and that's yeah, you work with clients on that. It's part of my marketing, like we're human program, because it, it is like, if you don't get. [00:18:00] 

Janene: Like, if you don't do the deep work right there, mm-hmm , I, I honestly 

Sarah: think you can never figure out the pricing and, and, and it's so interesting.

You're bringing up different cultures so that matters, but then also, you know, how you grew up and, and, and all of these. Influences that obviously by the time we are ready to launch our business while we've been influenced by all of this. So we come with this baggage that is just like, yeah. And it's, it's so different from.

You know, being an employee in a corporate where it has nothing to do with you, even if you are the one setting the price, it has nothing 

Janene: to do with you where here it has everything to do with you, or you think it has everything to feel it. Yeah. Yeah. It's. Even, I mean, in the corporate world. So to me, there's two sides to pricing.

There's, you know, the, the more concrete side, which is the numbers and the figures, which generally are [00:19:00] feel more concrete. And then there's the psychological side. I always tell people. Somewhat jokingly, but I actually mean in all seriousness is that pricing is all about the psychology baby. And you have to wiggle your eyebrows.

When you say that , I don't think I'm asking. You're not doing it very well today. I'm out of practice because whether it's a small company or a big company, the psychology. Your personal psychology, the psychology of your organization. And this I've seen in large companies, the sales team thinks that price is the most important factor.

From the customer's perspective. I will tell you nine times outta 10, when we did the research, we found it was maybe in the top five, usually within the top 10 mm-hmm . But if your sales team thinks it's number one, That is going to impact how they behave when they're having sales discussions with your customers.

Yeah, so it, it's not just a small business [00:20:00] thing. It, it happens in both sides. And when it comes to psychology, you have the psychology internal to your business for a small business, your psychology usually and not of your employees, but then you also have the external psychology towards the market, towards the customer.

So it has many different facets to. 

Sarah: Yeah, I wanna talk about, so we addressed the, you know, the internal psychology a little bit, because it has to do with, you know, who you are, what you believe, whether you believe that you are worthy net, whether you ever sell anything anymore or not. Right. You have 

Janene: to really, truly believe that you're worthy without ever 

Sarah: getting a client again.

right. And then there's the external psychology. And, and I talk about that also in my marketing, like we're human book, that's kind of. Cheeky psychology that we're taught in, in marketing and kind of this online sales world. Mm-hmm so I'm really curious to, to hear more about that and your points of view, and what's true.

[00:21:00] What's not, and mm-hmm and how to deal with it when we want to. You know, apply this humane approach to running a business with ethics and not cheat people into buying your stuff just by using some kind of psychology hack mm-hmm . So talk to us about that. 

Janene: Okay. Before I get into that, let me just make one more comment.

So one of the things that I've learned in having my own business is I thought this was a career development journey. Mm. When in fact it's been a perfect per a personal development journey from day minus two until the day I stop, it will continue to be a personal development journey. And that's also one of the reasons that this personal psychology.

Placed it such a big role. So you're constantly being pushed outside of your comfort zone. Pricing is certainly one of those areas. The value of what you offer is certainly one of those areas and, and being able to have the [00:22:00] strength and the courage. To step outside your comfort zone to tackle these things is what's going to enable you to keep pushing forward in your business and be there to deliver the great things that you wanna deliver to your clients.

I truly believe that. And I'm sure that people told me that before I started. I'm sure I did not understand it. I know, but it is 100%. My reality. Yeah, yeah, yeah, 

Sarah: yeah. That's a good preface for, for what's coming up next. 

Janene: okay. So now you wanted to talk about the psychology. So the external psychology, there are a lot of things.

A lot of studies out there. A lot of tricks of the trade, if you will. I'm not sure I like that terminology. But when it comes to, you know, having a humane business and I, I I'm, I'm not going to say that using them is inhumane or humane. I'm not making any judgment. What I really [00:23:00] feel is that as a business owner, you should understand the psychology side of it because.

Even if you're not using it actively, you wanna make sure that accidentally you're not doing things that are hurting your business. . Yeah. And, and that's very possible to do. For example, I had a client a few weeks ago, we had CR gone through and created her price list. And she was getting her website ready and she had two offers, one for a very high priced.

Group high net worth individuals. And the second offer, there were two completely different offers, but one was targeted towards young adults who were just starting out in their careers. Mm-hmm . And so she had one offer on one webpage and the other offer on another, and then she had a pricing page and she had the prices for both offers side by side mm-hmm

which from a psychology perspective [00:24:00] meant that all the good work we had done was actually now working against her because it felt like cuz the prices were on the same page. Like they were competing with each other mm-hmm whereas if she just removed the pricing page and put the price for the young adult offer here and the price for the high net worth individuals here, that comparison would not be made in the same way.

That's what I mean by you have to understand, you know, These things are communicating so that you can make sure you're not doing things in a way that is actually hurting your business or your customer's experience. Mm. Yeah. Now one of the things you and I had spoken about was the endings of prices.

Right? Right. You might have that conversation. yeah. Should it be 95 or 97 or 99 or zero? So I can't answer that question. For everybody that is going to be a very individual decision in each business. Here's what I can tell you. And then you can decide for [00:25:00] yourselves what is going to be best suited for your company prices that end in zero, tend to be associated with more luxury goods.

Prices. It ends in nines and sevens and fives tend to be associated, especially when they put, you know, 95 cents. Yeah. Or 99 cents at the end, those tend to be associated with more. Companies that are playing towards the low price leader side of things. How, how do I know this? If you go into Louis Viton you will never see 1,999 and 99 cents, right?

You just won't see it. No, yeah. You'll see. 2000, you'll see, 2,500, 8,000, right. It's just, and, and the prices will be tiny on a little teeny, tiny price tech. Yeah, you go to Miro or you go to Kmart or somewhere like that. They have big price tags with great big [00:26:00] prices on them. And there's 90 nines and 90 fives at the bottom.

Right. So you have to, you know, what sort of, you know, how does this align with the value or with your purpose or brand? What's gonna make more sense for you. Yeah. And, and, and, 

Sarah: and how is it gonna resonate with your clients? You know, who are you trying to attract? If you have a big ticket and, you know, service and you price it with the 99 cents at the end, they probably 

Janene: won't like it well, it depends.

And it also depends. So here's another example. If you're say you're a consultant, you're offering projects. If you offer a price of 25,000 versus 24,495, right then from the customer's perspective, 25,000 looks like a number that you kind of just pulled outta your back pocket. Whereas [00:27:00] 24,495 looks like a number that you've actually spent some time considering.

does that make one better than the other? You have to be the judge about yeah. What per what you want or how you want to be perceived by your customers. What's going to make more sense right now, if you're in an, in an industry or in a part of the world where you're gonna be doing a lot of negotiation, then 25,000, maybe.

Just the easiest place to start. Right. But if you're looking not to do a whole lot of negotiation, you may start with a number that's more precise because then it reflects that that number is precise. Right. 

Sarah: And if you're in Morocco, because I just came back from two weeks in Morocco I learned that you, you know, negotiate the price down to 30% of.

They tell you, and then you go back up. So yeah, that's something that we're completely not used to doing the whole bargaining. Right. So I don't recommend that. no, no. And 

Janene: I think you are, you're [00:28:00] absolutely right. Think about who you're targeting, what they expect, what works exposed for you now, the 90 nines and the 90 sevens.

You know, those work with target groups that are more price sensitive. Yeah. They do, I mean, studies have shown time and again, that 1499 people see the 14, they don't think 15. Yeah. So if they were to see 15 and 1499 next to each other, they would perceive the 1 14 99 as being 14. Now that doesn't mean you have to use that in your business.

You need to do what's right for you and for your clients. So understand why those things are things, if you will and then decide, okay. What feels right for my business and for my audience and lead with that, because that's most important to me is that you believe in the number that you use. Yeah. 

Sarah: I think that permission piece is so important [00:29:00] because yeah.

I've had people ask me, so do I need to do the 2 97? Can I not just, you know, say 300 just because everybody else is doing it. And I'm like, no, you just like, you it's like, whatever you feel is right. And because when you priced the way you feel is right. then if you've done your, you know, intense client work and know who your client is, well, then they will also resonate with that more than the 2 97.

Janene: So, and if you're really, really not sure, create two landing pages, change one to have a price of 2 97, 1 to have a price of 300 and AB test. Yeah. Yeah. See what works better. Exactly. Yeah. I mean, okay. You'll make $3 or three Franks, less on each sale for the 2 97, depending on how on your margins. That could be that could make a difference or not, hopefully not.

You know, but that's test it out. Yeah. Who says you can't. No 

Sarah: one, I have a [00:30:00] follow up question on the comparison because that's another example that I share in the book and we see a lot where we have one same offer mm-hmm , but we have three different prices, you know, like one is the V I P offer the other one the sec, the one in the middle, and then the, the, the, the third one.

And you know, where you use that anchor system. So talk to 

Janene: us about that. Yeah. So anchoring is actually really important. I always tell PE, ask people what's the best way to sell a 500 Frank product, put it next to a 1500 Frank product. Right. And it's, it's, it's actually true. Yeah, you may never sell the 1500 Frank product, but if it's there, cause what, what you're doing.

So the anchoring, the concept here is that people are going to want to compare it to something, right. And if you give them something else on the page to compare it to, they don't necessarily have to go elsewhere to look for a comparison. Right. Right. So that can be [00:31:00] really helpful. Now. Also not just the price, but what's included in each package.

So you said the same offer, but there should be three different offers. Sorry. Yeah. Say same sales page, but same sales page, but three different offers. Yeah. What's included in those offers can steer behavior as well as the price. So let's say that, you know, the middle offer is the one that you think is the best for most of your clients.

Right? Then you can set it up to kind of steer most of them towards that. Right. Or if you don't wanna use that, you need to make sure that you're not accidentally steering them in the wrong direction. Right. So based on what's included and the price levels, you can, you can. Help them navigate through the decision 

Sarah: gently influence them or, or, yeah, 

Janene: well navigate.

Well, let's, let's face it. I mean, if I worked with a tool called [00:32:00] apathy and it is a tool that allows you to take an Excel. Like I, my pricing tools that I have on my website, they're Excel based. Mm-hmm it take, it takes the Excel tool and makes it into a web-based tool. Okay. So just converse it mm-hmm magic.

I love it. and when I wanted to use it, they had three offers. Right. And the first offer was you have access for one, one month or three months. I forget which and then the next level up, it meant that you got a WordPress integration. And it was almost double the price. And I thought, well, okay, mm-hmm but where did press integration is really helpful?

It can really solve a lot of problems. So I thought, okay, fine. And then the premium one came with phone support and I thought, well, I don't know anything about web based tools. I have no idea what I'm getting into and it was only 10 bucks more. So I think it went from like 30 to 60 to 70. Dollars. Okay.

And the middle one was six months [00:33:00] and the last one was a one year access. Okay. So. My logic was okay. I want the WordPress integration. So I'm willing to pay double right and have six months access. Right. And then in the next step, my logic was, I want the phone support or the, the priority support. I didn't really care about the 12 months.

I just, and it's only 10 bucks more. Okay. That's interesting. So they, 

Sarah: they actually wanted you to get the, the third 

Janene: offer. Right? Did, but that's where they put their focus. They absolutely did. Mm-hmm they absolutely did. And you know, if you start looking at, as you're buying things online, look, look at how they structure the offers and you'll see very clearly.

Usually you can tell which one are the most profitable or at least which one they're steering you towards. Yeah. Wine lists at a gross at a grocery store at a restaurant mm-hmm . The most profitable will wine for most restaurants will be the second, most expensive. On like [00:34:00] buy the glass Uhhuh glass.

Why? Well, they know that most people don't know a lot about wine mm-hmm so they're trying to, you know, make a good choice, but they don't wanna buy the, they don't wanna embarrass themselves by no, they're not gonna buy the cheapest and they're not gonna buy the most expensive mm-hmm so they buy the second most expensive, 

Sarah: right.

yeah. Yeah. And that's kind of the traditional thing. So I was surprised that with this tool, They actually wanted you to get the, you know, the highest one, even though it wasn't that much higher, because usually you see the third offer to be some kind of V I P you know, 10 times the middle of it depends.

So it was interesting to, yeah, I've never 

Janene: seen it really depends. So sometimes. You're right. Sometimes they use the, the premium offer as the main anchor. Yeah. Which means they make it so high price to make everything look cheaper. Yeah. But other times it's actually the it's better for ACY. It was better to have someone in there [00:35:00] for full year mm-hmm

Because they had just started and they were working out some of the kinks right. In this web-based con web-based tool converter, if you will, for lack of a better phrase. And so, and to have me on the phone with them, so actually, Benefit more to have people all the way over there. Yeah. Yeah. That feels like 

Sarah: an honest offer.

You know, it feels like, okay, I see what you're doing, but it's a win-win situation and, and yeah. You know, that's what we want. So I'm gonna share with you an example of one of my programs. So the, the marketing, like we're human program, I ran it in January and I had those three offers. The first one was.

Online only mm-hmm I think they went for 500 bucks and then the group program 950 mm-hmm cause I run it live only twice per year 

Janene: mm-hmm 

Sarah: and then the V I P program for 4,800 mm-hmm where they also got coaching besides the [00:36:00] group program. And so I thought like, you know, the, the cur the common advices, just put that V I P offer on there.

You might sell one, but you might not. And to my surprise, I actually sold three and only four group programs. So I was like, what's going on here? Like how, yeah. Can you share some insights of what might have been happening there? Did I not put enough value maybe or perceived value in the group offer?

What do you think 

Janene: was happening? Yeah, there's a lot of things that could be going on there. The price difference between 509 50 is not very big. Did you get anybody at the 500 or was it no, not for this one. Exactly. So you made, you made the barrier very low for them to go to the middle package. Okay.

Yeah, 

Sarah: so which I wanted, I wanted to, which was good, 

Track 3: right? 

Janene: Yeah. Yeah. Which is, which is good. I wanted, 

Sarah: You know, [00:37:00] probably, I mean, it was great that I had the three V I P I would've wanted more for the 

Janene: middle one for the middle, right? Yeah. Yeah. Hmm. I think, I think here it's, it's just a matter of people wanting that one to one support.

Yeah. So the big difference between the two packages, the middle and the top was getting your one to one time. Right. Is that correct? Am I correct in that? 

Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. That's the difference. Yeah. Between the two. So, 

Janene: And I think for, you know, for some things, you know, I, I I've had group programs as well and I, I will continue to do but I've found most of my clients prefer to work one on one.

Because , this is gonna sound funny when I say it, you know, but most people will assume that. Their pricing is special. Right. And that it has to be done in a special way. It's unique and, yeah. Right. And, and yes, every business is unique. Don't get me wrong. I use the same [00:38:00] process with everyone, but as we go through that process, different.

Different businesses will require we focus on different areas with different levels of intensity. Right? Right. So it's, it's same but different. And I would guess that, you know, the, the people who went for your, your V IP package, it was really because they wanted that one to one. FaceTime with you. Yeah.

And they didn't think that the group would give them what they needed. 

Sarah: Yeah. It's interesting. You get so much insights from, you know, just this example and, and, and then you're like, oh, what does that mean for me? Do I want to lower the V I P do I want to increase it? Because I actually want more people in the, in the group or, yeah.

How do I play with that? And it's yeah. Yeah. It's just 

Janene: so, I mean, I think, I think in your case you could play. Increasing the one to one package mm-hmm , but may, maybe also bringing your, your group program over a thousand. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It'll, [00:39:00] it'll be interesting how 

Sarah: it plays out for the next. Yeah. I thought I'd bring it up and, you know, because these, yeah.

These examples are, are real and we're like, how do we do this? And it's basically just like, well, you, you try and, and then you figure out, okay, this work, that didn't work. How do I improve it now? Right. But obviously 

Janene: it could also be that. I mean, cuz they are. They are, I would guess the same, but different , which is so, so specific Janine in that, you know, one is a group, two of them are group program, and one is individual.

So having it in this tiered structure, you know, it's. If you had say a VIP option, that was part of the group, it was really a VIP experience of the group, as opposed to a straight up one to one package, then you might see different results. Right, right. Yeah. 

Sarah: Yeah. Again, what, what this tells me that is that pricing.[00:40:00] 

It's not just about a number that you put on the thing it's also 

Janene: about your offering, right? Offering pricing, 

Sarah: same, same thing. Really. It's like, well, how much value are you going to put into that price? And, and I think that's kind of what went wrong the last few years. And that's why I, I kind of attack some of these pricing strategies where they use these psychology hacks to, you know, sell a program for a hundred thousand and that, and the actual value.

It's just very questionable often. And, and so that's why, what we need to understand is like, well, what is the value that people actually get out 

Janene: from that offer? Right. Well, I guess, you know, if, if the business is, you know, half a million dollar business and they're looking to grow to be a million dollar business than investing a hundred thousand dollars to grow your business to a million is, is a reasonable.

Investment to expect to make, right? Yeah, of course. But if you're a [00:41:00] $80,000 business and you are investing a hundred thousand to try and get to 

Sarah: 200,000, then you 

Janene: know, it's, you can, the pace be made probably would most people buy into it? Probably not. Right? Yeah. So it's, it's all contextual and this is why.

I cannot emphasize enough when it comes to pricing. You always, always, always have to go back to who are you targeting? Mm. Yeah, because if you're targeting businesses that are $80,000 businesses looking to get to 200, then a hundred thousand dollars offer or Frank offer is probably. Suitable for that target group.

Yeah. That's true. And you can really make life difficult for you if you try to create, if you create an offer and then try to force that offer on the wrong target group, right? Yeah. And let's face it. Most businesses start with, this is what I offer. Now. Let me figure out who I [00:42:00] can sell it to . Yeah. As opposed to starting with, I wanna do something for this group of people, with what I have, let me figure out how I can best serve.

Sarah: So it feels like there's like two big problems. Either you price too low because you have all this baggage or you grew up in a culture where the lowest price is the best idea or you price too high to the wrong target audience. And I'm sure there's a ton, tons of other problems, but these are kind of the two that stand out from our conversation.

Janene: Would you agree with that? Well, yeah. I mean, it's much, if you. Regardless of whether or not, you know what you're no, let me, let me think about how I wanna say this. So. Probability that you will over under price is relatively high. The more you understand about pricing, the more you can reduce that likelihood, right?

Yeah. Of being under overpriced doesn't mean it doesn't happen, but even, even if, and here's another interesting part of the [00:43:00] psychology. So even if your price is a little bit high, Yeah. If you're really good at communicating the value, you'll sell it anyhow. Yeah. No. Now you don't want it to be icky sales, but let's say I, you always use this example.

So let me just use it again. There are two lemonade stands. You're walking down the street, you run across two lemonade stands. One says lemonade, 25 cents. The other says lemonade, 50 cents. Which one do you buy? okay. In most parts of the world, you might buy one from each kid. If they're two cute little kids selling lemonade, and just give the other one, a 25 cent tip, call it a day.

But what if the one that is 50 cents also says clean water included? Hmm. Yeah. And that's the marketing 

Sarah: piece. , 

Janene: that's the pricing psychology piece from the communication standpoint. Yeah. That child is communicating the value of what they deliver better. Now it may be that they are brother and sister [00:44:00] and mom is in the kitchen making the lemonade, but because one of them communicated the value differently.

People are more willing to pay the 50 cents. Right. And let's say you're in a country where clean water isn't assumed. Then they have an even bigger advantage. So the better that you can communicate the value of your offer. To some degree, not big, not on a big scale, but to some degree, the more wiggle room you have in terms of, you know, O overpricing let's say yeah.

Over underpricing. And that's exactly 

Sarah: why. And what we said at the beginning, it's not just about the, the number. In fact, the number you can change it, however you want almost with, with boundaries, but it's about communicating that value. That's absolutely so key. 

Janene: And I was saying most people struggle. To really understand.

I see this in my clients all the time. This is where they struggle the most. When we get to the value [00:45:00] piece, consistently, I mean, there are struggles in different areas, but there's something about that. That attaching a number. Cuz when we do the value work, we don't just talk about benefits. Benefits are not value.

It's what people get from those benefits that creates value. And you need to be able to understand the benefits so that you can understand how those create value and then quantify that value mm-hmm . And when it comes to quantifying value and know, it makes people feel really uncomfortable. but it's hard because 

Sarah: again, your worth, your worst kind of gets 

Janene: in there.

It's like, really? Yeah. And they're like, well, what if you know, what if. I can't guarantee it. I'm like, I'm not asking you to guarantee it. I'm asking you to tell a story about the value that people can get. Mm-hmm you can choose to share that with clients or not. It's up to you, but if you don't understand what it is, [00:46:00] then how can you believe in any price that you put out there?

Yeah. Yeah. You can't. Mm. And if you don't this , 

Sarah: I, I look at the hour and I'm like, oh no, we have to wrap up. But I'm so glad we brought up the, the value pricing. Cause that was kind of in the questions I, I had prepared and we just kind of jumped over it. But the, yeah, this idea of pricing for value and not like your Dutch 

Janene: client just for time 

Sarah: exchanged or, you know, let me get the cheapest offer out there so that I get the most clients.

It is so important and I think it cannot be repeated enough and, and you're right. It's, it's difficult. I mean, it's, 

Janene: you have to believe in the value that you bring. Yeah. Yeah. And if you don't look at it and, and put number to it, Then you'll really struggle to believe in it. And like I said, if you don't, they won't there's always a few gem clients out there who believe in spite that you [00:47:00] don't , but those, you know, those are, are often few and far between and the best thing for you and for your clients is that you understand and believe in the value that you bring.

Sarah: Ah, this has been so good. Thanks so much, Janine. This you're welcome has been really valuable. I wish we could. Maybe we will do a second round round. hard to, yeah. But do you share with our listeners where they can find out more about you and how you work with clients and, and all of that? Yeah. 

Janene: I encourage people to head on over to the pricing lady.com.

Very easy to remember. I have a podcast you'll find some great Information on there as well and regular guests and also solo cast episodes, which are a little bit more instructional. And of course, if you'd like to book a call, you can find that there as well. 

Sarah: Wonderful. And I have one last question and that is what are you grateful for today or this 

Janene: week?

This one? Yep. I'm grateful for opportunities like this. I [00:48:00] really enjoy sharing this topic with people and, and helping people to think differently about it so that they can gain momentum towards having a more sustainably profitable business. So thank you very much, Sarah. Thanks for everyone for listening.

Thank 

Sarah: you, Janine. Take 

Janene: care.[00:49:00] [00:50:00] [00:51:00] [00:52:00] 

Today's conversation about membership programs for humane businesses fits under the P of Product of the Humane Marketing Mandala.

In this week's episode, I talk to Amy Bonsall about the P of People, precisely people flourishing at work.

Amy founded Nau and developed its core offerings by drawing on her extensive experience in designing for mental wellbeing and for communities, as well as her experience advising teams and leaders across 100s of companies in industries from tech to financial services to healthcare to agriculture to retail.

Previously, Amy was an executive at IDEO, where she spent a decade leading the creation of new businesses for companies across Europe, Australia, Asia, and the US, living much of that time outside the US. And as the executive leading new ventures at Old Navy, she co-led the creation of a billion-dollar new business, focused on body equity.

In this episode, we talk mainly about people in Corporate jobs and I know that is possibly not your situation as my audience is made of more entrepreneurs. But it's maybe the situation of your clients, friends, and family. I think it's such a timely topic to discuss because we're at the beginning of a huge work transformation after the two years we went through. The great resignation is a testimony to that.

In this episode, you'll learn about flourishing at work as well as...

• Why people are NOT flourishing at work
• The main reasons for their disengagement from work
• The mental consequences of this situation
• The opportunity and where we can go from here
• Amy's idea of a flourishing workplace
• And much more…

Amy's Resources

 

Amy's Website

Special offer: 1:1 sessions with Amy for Humane Marketers

"When starting a new job means… crossing your living room" article by Amy

Connect with Amy on:

Twitter

LinkedIn

Sarah's Resources

Watch this episode on Youtube

(FREE) Sarah's One Page Marketing Plan

(FREE) Sarah Suggests Newsletter

(FREE) The Humane Business Manifesto

(FREE) Gentle Confidence Mini-Course

Marketing Like We're Human - Sarah's book

The Humane Marketing Circle

Authentic & Fair Pricing Mini-Course

Podcast Show Notes

We use Descript to edit our episodes and it's fantastic!

Email Sarah at [email protected]

Thanks for listening!

 

After you listen, check out Humane Business Manifesto, an invitation to belong to a movement of people who do business the humane and gentle way and disrupt the current marketing paradigm. You can download it for free at this page. There's no opt-in. Just an instant download.

Are you enjoying the podcast?  The Humane Marketing show is listener-supported—I'd love for you to become an active supporter of the show and join the Humane Marketing Circle. You will be invited to a private monthly Q&A call with me and fellow Humane Marketers -  a safe zone to hang out with like-minded conscious entrepreneurs and help each other build our business and grow our impact.  — I'd love for you to join us! Learn more at humane.marketing/circle

Don't forget to subscribe to the show on iTunes or on Android to get notified for all my future shows and why not sign up for my weekly(ish) "Sarah Suggests Saturdays", a round-up of best practices, tools I use, books I read, podcasts, and other resources.

Raise your hand and join the Humane Business Revolution.

Warmly,

Sarah

Imperfect Transcript of the show

We use and love Descript to edit our podcast and provide this free transcript of the episode. And yes, that's an affiliate link.

Sarah: [00:00:00] Hi, Amy. So good to talk to you today. I can't wait to dive into this topic. We've been talking already beforehand, so really excited. 

Amy: Likewise and it's so, so fun to be on your podcast. Thanks for having me, Sarah. 

Sarah: Thank you. Yeah. So we want to talk about the P for people of my humane marketing Mandalah and in our conversations, it's really about people flourishing at work that is kind of your specialty.

Right? And I think before we get started, maybe you can tell us a little bit how that became your specialty. How did you get into this field? 

Amy: Yeah. Well, just to start with the P part of it, I spent a decade as a human centered designer at the design company called IDEO. And there, we just really learned how to understand people and what their needs are.

And one of the things that we always believed and practiced was. You help people by recognizing where they are and then taking them one step [00:01:00] further, not by starting with what, you know, they might hope, or you might hope is their ideal aspiration. And so that's really the Genesis of my corporate training and my professional training.

And I'm just applying that at work. One of the things I had the chance to do. Consulting career was work all over the world and with companies all over the world. And I saw the same challenges all over the world, which is that we are not flourishing at work. It is hard to flourish at work and there are cultural challenges that make that hard.

And I say culture kind of quite broadly. It's not American culture. It's not, you know, Silicon valley corporate culture. It's the kind of universal workplace culture that we've developed over. Right. So that's really the Genesis of how I got this. 

Sarah: Yeah, so it's so good when you said, you know kind of take people from where they are.

I think it makes me think of my work with selling and how often we want them to sell kind of [00:02:00] this future version of themselves instead of acknowledging where they are first. So it, this idea, this concept applies to. I guess so many different things right. In, in, in design and it applies to sales and marketing probably as well.

So, so interesting. And the other thing you said is this idea of, of culture. And, and, and yeah, I'm, we're going to go into that idea a little bit more the work culture that we've created over. What is it the last, what would you say 20, 50 years? How 

Amy: long? Probably 50, 75 years. We've created this culture of dry, which is great in so many ways.

But it, it creates this sense that if we're not exhausted, we're not succeeding and that's kind of paradigm that we need to break in order to flourish. Yeah. 

Sarah: Yeah. It's almost like We created, you know, the, the, the, the last kind of breakthrough was the industrial revolution. And so that's [00:03:00] kind of, we were very proud to create this really deep work ethics and got to work.

And, and, and even to schools, if we think. You know, we're going to be talking about work spaces, but if you think about the schools, I often have this conversation with fellow parents. It's like the schools have never changed since the industrial revolution. And we're still teaching the kids as if they were like little soldiers who have to eventually go to, to work.

And it's just like, ah, it's so frustrating at times. Do you feel frustrated in your work sometimes as well because you. I wish you could go faster. 

Amy: Oh, all my every day I wish I could go faster. And I think, you know, we're going to talk about some practical things that you can do in your workplace or any of your listeners can do.

But I often crave, like, I think we need a cultural revolution here or revolution is the right word. We really need to create a new [00:04:00] paradigm in the workplace. And in fact, one of what's so interesting. You're right. We started with this. Industrial revolution sort of belief in increased productivity what's been proven.

More recently is that, you know, when we are balanced, when we're balanced, when we are flourishing, when we are not giving everything to work, that's when it actually goes better. Productivity increases, efficiency, increases client satisfaction, customer satisfaction increases. And, but it's counterintuitive for us.

Because I think of what our culture is. Yeah. 

Sarah: Yeah, yeah. So, so much. So, I mean, even I was sharing with on LinkedIn about, you know, the recent Morocco trip and I shared about feeling even on vacation, this urge of. Going to the next thing. Right. We had this eight day trips through Morocco and I was like, oh, it felt like, oh, I have to go to the next city and, you know, see more things.

And then we just actually [00:05:00] decided, okay, let's arrest for two days and coincidence or serendipity wanted it. The place we were at was called and in Arabic or verbiage language, that actually means rest place. Well, if that's not a sign to, you know, just stress, but yeah. Even on vacation, we're like, oh, chasing after the next thing.

And, and that reminds me of something you said during our pre-call is this kind of this visual of the hamster wheel of many of your clients feel like they're, they're spinning in this hamster wheel and it's almost kind of like a surreal world that they're spinning in. So. Yeah, when that comes up, how do you help them with, I guess, change of perspective and, and yeah.

Some tools. How do you work with clients who give you 

Amy: that answer? Yeah, you know, I mean, one of the things I was reflecting on our last conversation too, and that image, one of the things that's been [00:06:00] so powerful for me over the past couple of years as I've worked in this, you know, a full-time in this space is this.

And that so many of us feel like we're alone. We're all individually. Suffering from something that others seem not to be. And one of the things that I do in my work when I work with teams and companies is I'll spend a lot of time one-on-one with, with people inside the organization and then I'll play back to them.

Here are the things that are barriers to flourishing in your organization. Here are the things that are supportive. And when I play back the barriers, so often I get this comment. Oh, I thought it was just me, you know, I didn't realize other people were suffering. And I think that's part of where this hamster hamster wheel image comes from is this idea that I'm alone fighting the good fight against against this culture that everyone else is thriving in, but we aren't thriving.

So I think that's the first thing is just recognizing. The collective challenge that we all have, and the fact that it's not [00:07:00] a unique individual one, and then therein lies the answer for me. I very much believe. That community is the sort of counterweight or the support to flourishing at work, we support we've flourished through our connections with other people.

And so that's often what we'll do is we'll start with a community, being a working team, be it a leadership team be it a team of people at middle management. And just identify, like, what's one thing that they want to do to support their sense of flourishing, and then we do it together. 

Sarah: Yeah, it seems so simple, right?

It seems so simple because it's like, well, all these people are there. You know, you have all these colleagues so just get together with them and share what you're feeling and that you're, you know, feeling this idea of. Loneliness or being in a hamster wheel. And yet I think part of that [00:08:00] industrial revolution training is, has been like, no, you just gotta power through it and you have to just wear your mask and do your spiel and kind of, you know, embraced us role because at work that's how you behave.

D is that the hardest part to get people to actually, you know, learn how to be in community? 

Amy: So I think we all have the natural instinct to be in community. I think we've all realized that especially over the last two years when we haven't been together. So we have that natural instinct in that capability.

What's hard actually is turning it from just community about how do we achieve the next task or get the next thing done or shift. Brought up to how do we take some of that time and talk about how we work? What we focus on or I focus on when I help people is like, let's have a conversation about how you're working, not just what you're working on.

And that's like, it is simple actually. And it's also very, very it feels very indulgent [00:09:00] to take the time to talk about how we work. But absolutely it, you know, small changes can make a big. 

Sarah: Yeah, you're so right. It's this idea of just like I shared about the pausing on vacation, we just don't want to take the time to do something that feels like we're doing nothing.

It's like, why would we, why are we talking about, you know, how we wanna, how we work instead of what the next thing we need to accomplish. And I also. When you talked, I thought, well, that's true in the workplace. And I definitely see it in my husband's company, but I would even say that even in the entrepreneurial space, we have become these kind of loan wolves and, and you know, everybody on their own.

And even though we say that we have, you know, Facebook groups and all these social media networks to kind of be in touch, even there, I [00:10:00] feel like. It's still not this offense, that connection where we actually help each other. So I, I do feel like we can't just say, oh, it's all the corporate stuff. That's not doing a good job.

I think even in the entrepreneurial space we need to kind of pause and say, okay, let's really collaborate. And co-create because I know. I think that we have been doing that. And for us, there really is no excuse, right? Where in the corporate world, maybe, you know, someone up there creates the culture and then, and then, you know, you just live in that culture for us.

We actually have the privilege to be able to create that. So have you seen that also, you know, in kind of your entrepreneurial 

Amy: fields, that there's a shift happening there too? You know, so much of what you said just resonated with me right now. And one of the things that I think ties corporate culture and entrepreneurial culture together is the broader culture that we're living in.

And again, I mean that quite broad, I spent a [00:11:00] big chunk of my career outside of the U S and I saw. In Asia. I saw it in Australia. I saw it in Europe as well as in the U S but culturally, it feels bad if we're not pushing, pushing, pushing. And that is what creates that ripple effect in big companies. But it's also what creates this drive in us to keep going as entrepreneurs and to not stop and reflect as much as we know we should.

I mean, how did it feel? Took a time to pause on your vacation. Right? It feels good. Doesn't it? It 

Sarah: does. Yeah. I, like we said before, the call, it feels like at the, the first two days it's like, oh really? Am I just really unplugging? And it feels weird, but then once you do, it's like, oh, this. Life is all about let's face it, that that's where, you know, the, the, the memories happen.

That's where you create memories for your kids and in your family in not in the business exchanges so 

Amy: [00:12:00] much. Right? So we know intuitively when we have this felt sense that pausing is good for us. And yet culturally, we have this. You know, this voice that comes in and sounds like our own voice in our own head that says, you've gotta be pushing harder, you've gotta be working faster.

And so the first thing is just kind of acknowledging that there's a tension there, right? And that's that's where I landed on this concept of flourishing at work, you know, originally I was playing around with different ways in different, you know, versus a different language. But flourishing really spoke to me.

And I'll tell you why one it's. So scientists have studied what makes people flourish and I love that there's science behind this. We know what makes us feel good. But the thing that really connected with me for flourishing, and I'm curious if it resonates with you too. The idea that flourishing encompasses how we achieve, how we connect and how we recharge.

It really kind of says, all of these things are important to making us feel [00:13:00] good. You can't have achievement without recharge. You can't have recharged without achievement and you can't have any of them without connection. And so sort of recognizing that those are all pieces of the puzzle that are important is, is how it.

Help others and myself, frankly, as well too, to get the sense of flirty. Yeah. Yeah. 

Sarah: W what I just saw as the image of a flower and, you know, these 

Amy: different pedals 

Sarah: that, like you said, pieces of the puzzles. And I was like, yeah. And then kind of flourishing the flower, you know, pieces, different pedals basically, then that all are needed for us to, to flourish.

That's so true. Yeah. So, so what's the opportunity where, you know, w w what can we do as entrepreneurs and, and what are you working on with companies to, to create that shift? And maybe, you know, some companies already recognized the need for the chef, and then there's probably others who [00:14:00] are still.

You know, lost in the industrial revolution and they haven't even recognized the shift. Where would you say? Kind of a percentage percentage-wise how many companies have already recognized something needs to change? 

Amy: It's a great question. And one, I'll start with your, your prompt about what's the opportunity.

I love that you ask it that way. You know, I, as I said earlier, I was trained as a designer and as designers, we're always trained to look for the opportunity that that sort of sits in the problem. Right? So a lot of like, there's a lot of talk lately about burnout. There's a lot of talk about language. And and you know, some studies will say up to 75% of people have felt overwhelmed stress burnout in their workplaces.

So the, the, the issue is there, the opportunity for me is to flip it around and say, well, okay, that's one thing. Burnout is one thing, how do we flourish? Let's focus [00:15:00] on how do we flourish? What does it look like? Four-ish do companies recognize this. Absolutely. I would say many of them do. I'd say.

What they grapple with is how can we be effective here? And a lot of, a lot of attention has been put on wellbeing programs in the workplace and what these can actually do unintentionally is exacerbate the problem because they're, they're offered as individual resources. Here's something for you.

Employee acts to go and do. And what, what that isn't acknowledging is that there's this communal thing. There's this culture that we've all created and we've all kind of understood and accepted in our workplaces, whether they're startups or large companies. And that that culture is what makes it hard for us to make the change.

And so I have really tactical things that people can do to start flip flipping this. But but yes, acknowledging that there's there's a real need is the first step. And I think a lot of companies are, they. [00:16:00] With the grapple with is how can we tactically make the change? Yeah, 

Sarah: you're so right about the individual solutions and they're probably, you know, they're probably not wrong.

Their first step. They're a nice to have, but they are not going to. Solve the problem of you know, for example, the great resignation people won't stay just because they now have a weekly meditation class in the company. Right. So it's really the culture that the communal aspect of the workplace that, that needs to change.

And I don't, I think younger generations are just requiring that. So yeah. The other thing. I guess that we're also having to solve as yes, we want communities. And yet the trend is that we're all going, not going back to the actual office and workspace. So we did, it's like an additional [00:17:00] challenge.

People are gonna still work from home. And so we need to somehow create community while being all over the place and not necessarily to get. 

Amy: No, absolutely. That's so true. And you know, I just want to comment on your point about the younger generations are demanding that like, when you look into the data, it is generation.

Z and the millennials who are more likely to be demanding change you know, us, us older folks and gen X, et cetera recognize it and need it as well. We're, we're just less likely as a generation to insist on it. And I love that these younger generations are because I believe that that it's the change that we need in our organizations.

So even if, you know, as leaders, we're hesitant to. May cultural changes, recognizing that the younger generations coming up are, are not going to accept the status quo, I think is really good business motivation. So, so that I think is really [00:18:00] compelling opportunity for us in terms of like, what can we tactically do?

And, and your point that many of us are not going back to the office. I think that there's, there's still so much that we can, that we can do even when we're not physically connected. And one of the biggest things that I talk about with the teams that I work with is this idea of. There are transactional interactions with our colleagues and there are relational interactions with our colleagues.

And so much of what we've done over the past two years has lean towards the transactional, right? We're online. We're going to just get this thing done that we need to collaborate on. Maybe there's like two minutes of like, how was your weekend before that? But it really leans transaction. And what I believe that we need to do is to add in, you know, more dedicated relational moments and those we can do together when we're in person, that's more natural for us, but there are also really easy ways to do that when we're physically [00:19:00] separated.

Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. I love that distinction between transactional and relational. And what I often use is, you know, the doing and the being the yin and the yang and, and, and totally, yeah. In, in, in our community, the humane marketing circle, we really want to come as humans to the circle. So, yes, there's the transactional piece to doing piece, you know, that the marketing advice, but then it's.

Also about the being, being together as entrepreneurs who want to do marketing ethically and that mothers, I would say just as much as just getting the answer to, you know, what tools should I use for this and that. Right. And, and you're right. We're so trained to always want to. The quick fix the next answer, where we didn't actually realize what we're missing is also the relationship and the belonging to something bigger to a group, [00:20:00] even so to have companies realize that I think that's going to be a huge.

Huge change. Like to actually say we value to put time aside for having people create relationships and, and, you know, they have to pay people while this happens. Right. That's going to be a huge shift. So I'm curious to hear from you. Yeah. If you envision the company of the future where people flourish at work, how does that look like?

Amy: Yeah, no, that's a great question. And, and I agree, you know, to the first part of your, your comment, like companies do need to invest in and spend time in this. I don't think that's different than it ever was. I think we always had our social hours and, you know, our conferences, et cetera, et cetera. I think we need to be more intentional now.

And I actually think that's a really good thing. And so if we look five years ahead I think that the company that [00:21:00] flourishes the most is the one that is most intentional about relationship building alongside the transactional stuff. It's funny. You were, you were on vacation last week. I took my first business trip in two years last week.

And as I was going through the business trip, I was like, it just feels different than, than it used to. And I. I started polling, you know, folks on social media. I was like, have you, have you traveled for business? And if so, like what's different now than it used to be. And one person came back and said, you know, it's all about relationships now.

And I've noticed that when I travel for business and connect with my colleagues personally, it makes all the transactional stuff so much easier. And so. That, you know, that's a key part of the business of the future. Will we be together or apart? I think that's going to vary by business. Some businesses will absolutely want to be together every day.

Some will not. But I think it's super interesting, this comment on like how relationships make the [00:22:00] transactional stuff easier. And I do really believe that's a key point. Of of what the future successful businesses will look like. The other thing that I think is really important is having conversations.

We spoke to this earlier about how we work just iterating on like what's working and what's not. You know, when we went into the pandemic, we all flipped mode almost overnight as we come out of the pandemic. I think it's going to be a longer journey to figuring out how we work together successfully, what it looks like to collaborate in this new environment.

And so just creating space, regular space for having conversations about the, how, not just the, what that will be a hallmark of a flourishing company. 

Sarah: Yeah, that really resonates with me. And, and I think you're right, it's this, it's a way from, you know, business trips to conferences and all these kind of big meetings and agendas.

We can do those online [00:23:00] now, right. People are not going to travel for that anymore. Or I think also just going to be more like outings and. Things and, you know, just like, yeah. Getting to know the humans behind the zoom screen in a way. Right. So, 

Amy: yeah. Yeah, exactly. You know, Airbnb, I don't know if you caught this news cause you weren't offline and I hope you didn't actually, but I did 

Sarah: actually.

Yeah. Yeah. But they announced that people can now work from anywhere. 

Amy: Right. People can work from anywhere forever. And I think two things were really important in that announcement. One is they said, expect to come together once a quarter with your colleagues. They're still figuring out what that looks like, but they're acknowledging that the there's this really urgent need for people to come together physically.

Yeah too, and I think this relates to their business, but I think it's interesting for all of us. They said up to three months per year, you can work from any other country in the world. [00:24:00] And also that's about the relational, right? That's about for them immersing with their customers and understanding their lives.

And so you know, I think that companies that are doubling down on this relational aspect will do well. Yeah, 

Sarah: I think they're definitely setting an example for you know, for the future of business. And I'm sure a lot of. Young generations will either. They're like, that's exactly what we want. We want to work for a company.

And, and, and I think we've proven many times over that the, this myths that we had before, the pandemic, that people don't work the same amount or same hours, because they're at home. I mean, we we've seen that, that that is absolutely not true. So, so yeah, there's. There's definitely good things that hopefully come out from this kind of weird times that we have gone through.

And I'm glad for Airbnb to Jen is just kind of show the way. Yeah, 

Amy: absolutely. And you know, two things I want to kind of [00:25:00] underlying here. I believe so. One of the things that I studied is. What, what makes behavior change successful? And you know, if you think about new year's resolutions, for instance, those are things that we always want to do.

And yet how often are we actually successful behavior? Change is hard, even when we want it. And we're in the midst of the biggest work. Upheaval and change and our, and our lifetimes really. But one of the things that makes change successful is the shock of being in sort of this transition state and being in in this space where everything is kind of thrown up into the air.

If you think in your own life, one did the biggest change happened. It wouldn't be surprising if it was around, you know, a move from one, you know, one place to another or a life change. You know, having kids getting married, graduating from college, all of these like big moments are when we make the biggest change.

And so right now, as a [00:26:00] society, we're in one of those big moments collectively. And so we have this real opportunity to create change right now. And I think it's sort of important for all of them. To recognize that and to take advantage of it. Cause I think we could slip back into the way things used to be, but I don't think many of us want to.

And so it's, it's an opportunity we have in this moment of, of ambiguity is that we're all more malleable than we ever will be either before or after. 

Sarah: And it somehow requires also. Some work on ourselves. We can't just say, oh, you know, the company and blame it all on the company. Cause I feel like even for ourselves while we need to, you know, show some flexibility, more flexibility, maybe we need to even be okay with a pay cut things.

We value now more because of the transformation we have gone through, they don't always come with more money. So this [00:27:00] idea of, you know, do I really want this promotion? Is that, that my next step? Or, or, or maybe do I value things differently? So I think it requires also some self-refer reflection and maybe changing some priorities in their own life.

Amy: Oh, I a thousand percent agree. And actually, you know, if the first thing that folks need to contemplate is how do they add in more of the relationship relational interactions? The second thing I I'm advocating for. Consider what agency you have and use that agency. And I think this is true startup or big company, but I think it's really easy to get into the situation where you think this is the way the world is, or this is the way things are.

But absolutely we have the chance no matter where we sit to kind of recognize the amount of change that we can create. And to grasp that and to [00:28:00] do something about it. And absolutely flexibility is one of the, sort of the biggest things that comes up over and over again, as, as a desire for my clients.

But what does that look like? What does it mean? What, what do you really want by flexibility? And often it boils down to things that are not financially related, right? I want to be able to show up for my kids' soccer games. Like I have been able to, I want to be able to be here when my child is sick.

Things like that I think are much more internally intrinsically motivated than extrinsic extrinsic. And and that's part of the conversation I think we can have together is like, what do we need to be able to work healthfully and well together. 

Sarah: Yeah. And it really is such an opportunity to, to have this time of change due to sit down and have this reflection.

Right. Because before we were just in our trans mode and, and just, you know, work and sleep and work again, [00:29:00] now we actually have to time to think, well, what do I want out of yeah, out of my time here on this earth, 

Amy: I like to say that I think. Every person, probably over the age of two in the world has had some sort of epiphany over the past two years.

Right. They have this chance to reflect on what they really want. And it's, it's helpful to remember that we're all in that space together right now. And so one better in our lives to talk about change and what we really want out of how we work together. Then. 

Sarah: Yeah, this has been amazing. Thank you so much for having this conversation with me.

It's I just really. I'm so delighted that we are living in this time of change. Like, I couldn't be happier that we are, you know, on earth right now to, to live through this change. And I, yeah, obviously I, I hope we'll see the other of the change, but I'm just so grateful also for [00:30:00] people like you, who help companies Yeah, pivot to you through this.

So I would, I'd be delighted if you shared, you know, where people can find out more about you and how you work with companies, but also the smaller startups, 

Amy: right? Yeah, absolutely. I'll share that one, one thought before I do you mentioned this, that we're all in this state of change and an exciting, and also it'll, it'll eventually settle down and I just want to acknowledge that change is very uncomfortable for us, whether or not we, we want it.

And so just recognizing that it is a period of great excitement and possibility. D it's deeply unsettling. So so if it feels unsettling, that's, that's part of the human condition. Yes, I work with companies. I have a company called now and it is all about helping people to flourish at work.

And I work with everyone from startups to huge, huge corporations on this. And we provide [00:31:00] programs and also bespoke support for those countries. I can be found on all the social channels. Well, except for Facebook, I don't, I don't Facebook right now. But active on LinkedIn and Instagram. And I will share a link for, for an article that I've written that really, it it's about.

How people can flourish as they start a new job during a pandemic, but actually it applies to anyone. And it has some really just really practical tips for how to increase, especially that relational aspect that we talked about. 

Sarah: I'll put that in the show notes 

Amy: for sure. Great. Thank you. And then also and I'll share a link to this, but just an offer.

I would be very happy to chat one-on-one with folks who are. Recognizing they want to do something to change their companies. Focus on flourishing. And so I'll share a link to that too. Don't hesitate to reach out just my gift to your [00:32:00] listeners. How can, how can we together identify a few steps that you can, you can make to, to create practical?

Sarah: Wonderful. Amazing offer. Thank you so much, Amy. You know that I always have one last question and that is what are you grateful for today or this week? This one? 

Amy: Yeah. So much actually one I've I've been sick recently. I have long COVID and I'm feeling better. And so I just, I think anytime you go through a health incident, like.

It's it's just a reminder of how important health is, and I'm just such a believer in sort of the connection of mind and body and, and, and the health that, you know, the importance of health and, and everything would be so grateful for that. You're feeling better. Thank you. But I also just want to say I'm so grateful for the community that I have, and I think that is what keeps me flourishing.

You know, I'm grateful for. For the other [00:33:00] entrepreneurs like yourself, who who I'm lucky enough to be friends with, who are, are honest and vulnerable with me about what their challenges are. And likewise, I can be with them. We all need these safe spaces to be able to kind of grapple with, with what's easy and hard about growing a business and some so, so grateful for my dear friends who who share their journeys.

Sarah: Wonderful. Yeah. It's so important to have that community of close friends or, or, or other entrepreneurs who like you say, show up real, like, where are you feel like, oh, this is real. I can tell the difference. 

Amy: Yeah, easy. So it's so great to have that, that support. 

Sarah: Wonderful. Well, thank you so much for taking the time to be a guest on the humane marketing podcast.

Amy, it's been a great pleasure to talk about. 

Amy: Oh my gosh. Thank you so much for inviting me in, and I'm such a fan of your work as well, Sarah, so thank you for, including me [00:34:00] in your journey.

This is a short muse episode that explains why I'm experimenting with a $7 trial to join the Humane Marketing Circle. 

Check it out here: http://www.humane.marketing/circle

Today's conversation about membership programs for humane businesses fits under the P of Product of the Humane Marketing Mandala.

We're talking about the membership business model today. I recently recorded a muse episode about two books I re-read regarding this same topic, so if you missed that solo episode go back and take a listen. But today I brought in an expert of this topic, whom I just heard on my friend Leisa Peterson's podcast and loved her 'realness'. So today I bring to you Lisa Princic.

Lisa is the owner of Scaling Deep. Over the last 12 years, she has helped 100's impact-driven business owners dive deep into their unique value and business models to build sustainable & profitable brands.

Lisa helps coaches, consultants and professionals become thought leaders and increase their impact and wealth with membership programs. A staunch believer in business simplicity and intention, she helps her clients accomplish their goals by focusing on what to do AND what to ignore.

Lisa loves a challenge with adventure and can often be found skiing or biking in the coastal mountains of BC.

In this episode, you'll learn about membership programs for humane businesses as well as...

• Memberships in 2022 and what people want now (compared to 10 years ago)
• Difference between a community and a membership?
• the different types of memberships
• Pricing of memberships
• How to get members to stay
• And much more…

 

Lisa's Resources

 

Lisa's Website

The Membership Success Blueprint Bootcamp

Connect with Lisa on:

Facebook

LinkedIn

Instagram

Sarah's Resources

Watch this episode on Youtube

(FREE) Sarah's One Page Marketing Plan

(FREE) Sarah Suggests Newsletter

(FREE) The Humane Business Manifesto

(FREE) Gentle Confidence Mini-Course

Marketing Like We're Human - Sarah's book

The Humane Marketing Circle

Authentic & Fair Pricing Mini-Course

Podcast Show Notes

Email Sarah at [email protected]

Thanks for listening!

 

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Sarah: [00:00:00] [00:01:00] [00:02:00] [00:03:00] [00:04:00] [00:05:00] [00:06:00] [00:07:00] Hey, Lisa. So good to talk to you today. Thanks. 

Lisa: So great to be here. 

Sarah: Awesome. Yeah, we just recently connected and I love these connections where you're like, oh yeah, I have to have you on the show. And now you get all these pitches in your inbox. You have. So you, you must no, thanks. No, thanks. I just rather reach out to people that I really want to have on.

So when I heard you on Lisa, the other Lisa, a podcast, I'm like, oh yeah, that sounded real authentic. Even though authentic is such a buzzword, but that's what I felt like when I listened to you. So 

Lisa: it's still a good word. I still like the word. Cool. 

Sarah: Good to have you. I'm looking forward to talking about memberships and how to kind of create a membership site or whatever community, whatever you want to call it, but build it in a [00:08:00] humane way, because that's what we're all about here on this show in a way that is probably not just all about.

Scaling and going big or going home. And that's kind of the feeling that I got. I got when I heard you talk. And then I went over to your website and then your website is called scaling deep and I'm like, oh yeah. Tell me more. Yeah. Tell, tell me a bit about scaling deep. And then we dive into. Membership sites.

Lisa: Yeah. Well, scaling team really means a lot to me and I probably don't talk about it enough. So thanks for, thanks for asking, because it really is about honoring our nature of wanting to, to grow and evolve. And we're not people who just, I mean, most people don't just want to get to a point and they're like, I'm done, I've stopped striving or trying things.

I mean, because again, it's, it's our makeup, right? So denying that it [00:09:00] does get us into. It's like trouble. When we say we don't want to earn, or we say we don't want to grow, or we don't want to make something big because it's, it's what we're wired for all of us to different extents. So I think when we can figure out how to do it in a way that has more impact or that feels richer and feels more rewarding, then we're honoring that and we're still doing something good.

And we don't necessarily have to do things that are changing the world overnight because that's a lot of pressure also, and we're able to just honor that, but then also just do more good with it. And I think that's a lot of people who I work with too. They are people who aren't necessarily motivated all by money and it's and yet earnings is a way to evaluate.

Our success, our impact, and just how we're performing as humans. So it's a really challenging [00:10:00] balance and I really liked just the concept of, well, what would you do if you did grow naturally, would you be setting goals? Like I need to make this, this next year and setting huge team goals, or would you be also saying, well, how can we have like a greater impact?

Like how can we make the experience better for everyone? If there's profit, for example, rather than just thinking about it as a, as an egocentric milestone that we're bragging to the world. And I think there's a lot more businesses out there like that than we know, but they're just not telling us how huge they are, because they're just growing naturally from doing good work.

And there's a lot of memberships out there doing that. And they are the ones that are doing like loads and loads of ads or on every, or doing huge podcast tours and all that. And so they're growing in a meaningful way. So I think that that's just really what I stand for. And I want more people to recognize that you can have both.

And if you deny growth, [00:11:00] It's frustrating also, because then we know we're not living our potential just because we say, well, I'm not interested in money. So there's this whole rabbit hole there of, I can really, what's gone on in my mind for how many years really that I won't get into. 

Sarah: Yeah, yeah. To two things come to mind.

First of all, the ego. Yeah. It's like the ego keeps talking to us and say, But, you know, you should really go bigger and bigger and bigger. And what I've learned over the years, even though, like you said, I'm not motivated by money to the extent where it's almost like 

Lisa: becomes a problem. Yeah. And that's what I'm trying to get at.

It does become a problem because then we're then in a way, we're like, what are we doing, working with? All this hard for free and not really earning a lot or earning enough from what we're putting out into the world. So monetizing the content and all that stuff has to, has to happen. And unless you're just not in that position and then that's a different, that's a different thing altogether.

So I think that's where you [00:12:00] there's that balance. Because again, that can just be sabotage in some ways, like why aren't we spending more time? I'm feeling relaxed and peaceful around her family or something, then hammering towards something and then not earning enough. So again, it's a bit problematic. So that's why I think if we get into purpose, And we feel like we working as a good thing to do.

Like it's, it's part of a a good way to live. I, we, we weren't really built for leisure, you know, all the time and we want to work towards good things. So if we can do that and then find the join, it put a reasonable amount of time in, and then. The rewards come together from fulfillment, also the earnings, because we're really in our, in our space.

And I think that's really the answer. Yeah. 

Sarah: Yeah. And you're right. That the society does always put success together with money, but. We're actually, I'm really challenging that I don't think that [00:13:00] needs to be the definition of success. I'd rather have a business where I'm not working all the time and, you know, making less money, but enough money for myself.

And so I think that's also what you're saying with these membership that the membership business model, that's something that is actually. Feasible it's doable. Right. And it, it's not, it doesn't need to be in that slimy way where it's like, oh, I'm spending all my time at the beach while making loads and loads of money.

That's not, that's not because that's kind of what the membership site model used to be in the days. It was like this lifestyle, 

Lisa: you know, all of online business, 10 years ago. All of them. When I first started really seeing everything online, it really was the laptop at the beach, like in the, in the early 2010 kind of era.

I mean, that's what everyone was, was encouraging. So yeah. And members and any scalable model. I mean, I think what we're seeing [00:14:00] is that in general, in online business, people are, are kind of dropped that because they know that that's not real. And, and yet they're just saying. Grow in a way that allows you to kind of sell one to many.

And, and then there are, you know, there's, trade-offs, there's, there's intense moments when you're growing a business based on some level of volume, there is launching, you know, there is, there are some there moments where you are going to work extra hard, but I think it's all about trying to find a sustainable balance because, you know, and truthfully.

Most people are not sustainable. Like there, they are putting more in than they're earning in a membership model at the beginning. And that's kind of where I really want to come in and help people figure that out because we also don't want to be working for years and not earning enough and putting too much time into it.

And you know, it's really got to work. It's got to work. After a certain period, like any startup, like [00:15:00] any business has got, there's gotta be a tipping point where there are more profit and it comes at easier, you know, at a greater ease. Sure. And we'll get into 

Sarah: that. I want to start kind of like what we said before, maybe, you know, 10 years ago, what a membership site was and what people want today and how that has maybe changed over time.

I remember being a member of some of these sites. Sites or whether they recalled and it just downloads tons and tons of information downloads. And in the end, everybody just felt, and that's a big topic for me. Everybody felt more anxious. There was more anxiety because there was a huge overload of information and people are like, ah, now I feel still like a loser because I don't 

Lisa: know what to tell with that.

And that was back in the day when we used to let people know. Tell us what success was and we did it discern. And because that was again, early days of online everything. And I think that's when we would say, [00:16:00] well, if we don't do all this, whereas now I think people are more savvy, no matter who they are and what sophistication they're coming into the space, they are saying like this isn't working for me or this, this isn't despite the fact that you're telling me, I need to follow these steps.

Like I'm stuck here and it's not working. So I think we are, people are more vocal. So there's no one really able to get away with just saying I'm going to overwhelm them and then they will, they will stay because they'll feel like they should be doing something. I think the consumer is more savvy now, so that's changed.

And that's why we really have to be a very. Mindful of sort of what we deliver as membership, business owners as well. 

Sarah: So more savvy. I would also add probably more conscious in terms of, you know, what I talk about, but I know you talk about it as well. The marketing piece it's like, how do we get people into our membership?

Well, they're more savvy, but they're also more conscious. So they're going to know when you're. BSC me with all [00:17:00] this stuff that it's, it's just not realistic and feasible. So the consciousness has, has to me, has risen over the last few years as well. So yeah, 

Lisa: I'm connection. I think people, well, I mean, I'm, I'm hoping, so, I mean, I'm really hoping that people are.

Buying for the right reasons. And I think that's the part that I find the biggest problem is one is how things are positioned in marketing. When we hear example after example, after success, story of success stories in a program that's had thousands and thousands and thousands of people in them. And then they're cherry picking like.

A few people who were in the right place at the right time with the right niche and the right everything to, to have increased, like have done really well, really fast. And that's positioned like, that's the typical result when it's actually, yes, it's a testimonial, but it's all it's rather than saying, well, that only happened to like a half a percent of the people who've ever taken this program.

So I think there is [00:18:00] still lack of ethics there around that, because. You when you were selling something that nobody can like look at touch, see, feel, and try on, and then return you. I think you need to actually, you can use real examples of this person got this benefit and allowed them to do this thing, but not blanketing it in a, we're not going to tell you the details.

They just came, joined this thing. Got this miraculous result, you can do it too. So I think that's where I'm hoping people get still even more critical and, and discern what they're really actually getting because this smoke and mirrors thing is still happens all the time. Yeah. It's still 

Sarah: happening. Yeah.

Yeah. Let's talk about the different types of memberships, because I talked to you about kind of like a community. Membership sites. What's the difference. Oh, okay. Okay. I think you have three types 

Lisa: or, well, okay, so there's three. Okay. There's three models and three types. And I [00:19:00] know I could come up with some better language, but the three, so the three models I like talking about, and I'll just show you karaoke briefly, or this sort of idea of like, where does it fit within your business model?

So there's like the warmup. Which it's the lead usually lower ticket, but I've got bigger ticket programs that I want to sell to these people. And that works really well. When you have a lot of people who come into your world or find out about you and just want to join something right away. There's the flagship model, which is kind of your all in one.

Like this is the thing that you want to grow. And the only thing you want to grow, and you want to have all your deliverables in one place, like you want one program, and then there's the follow-up. Easy, easier, because if you've got a lot of one-on-one clients or people you've worked with in programs, you can simply invite them to continue doing the learning and the growth over time together that you started working on and more privately together.

And then it just keeps them. Threaded to you. So tethered, I should say to you, so that, that those are like, those are ways to [00:20:00] think about it. Like how does it fit within your business model and what can you expect around like planning? Like what are you going to charge for it? I mean, if you've been charging expensive VIP days with clients, you can probably charge, you don't have to charge a super low, low amount when you for up work, because it's going to be a lot less than how they bought from you privately.

So I just, I do like to put that out there because I want people to see. Why they're doing it, like, how does it fit within their model and the first place? And then second of 

Sarah: all, can I, can I just go in there, warm up is, is kind of an audience building almost, right? Yeah. 

Lisa: Okay. And he can work well for audience building if it's lower ticket and yeah.

I mean, yeah. Cause it can be something that we could also be a loss leader. Like meaning if we have these amazing programs that we want people to do intensive work in, then we can have people come in to that. And if they don't, it doesn't even have to be profitable [00:21:00] if we're really getting our clients, our main earnings from the membership who buy into different programs.

Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Good and interesting model. Yeah. And then I think you were asking sort of about like how to structure the membership when you have a membership and you're asking, okay, what are the components of it? And I think that's, what is that what you're asking? Like, what does, like, what really determines what's the membership?

Yeah. Kinda 

Sarah: like, you know, is it content-based, is it community-based I remember those two types that you were mentioning, I just finished watching your four day. What is it called? Bootcamp? Yeah. Unfortunately that's over, but hopefully it'll do it again. So we'll link to a waiting list or 

Lisa: something like that.

Yeah. But yeah, 

Sarah: you mentioned that the, those different structures, I don't know what you 

Lisa: call them. It's structure for deliverables. And this is the [00:22:00] sustainability piece actually, which is good to talk about because a lot of people, again, feel overwhelmed by what they think they have to create for their members every month.

And then usually when they feel that way, they overwhelm their members by just trying to stuff too much. And so when I, when I look at what the three ways of delivering are in a membership, It, especially for a service provider, there is a mentorship. So I consider that live calls. It could also be a Facebook Q and a live all the way.

I that, to me borders a little bit less on, on mentorship, because it's, it's hard to get Q and a, it's hard to ask the questions and have conversation in a chat when they're live. And then there's the education model, which really is content. I mean, there was someone in. That we had some VIP calls in the bootcamp this week, and there's someone who has templates and training.

So every month she wants to deliver templates and trainings. So that is more of an education model. It may [00:23:00] have a community aspect of it. It may that the mentorships in the training, but it's less about being coached. And then there's a community aspect. And then I have someone in the inside the profitable membership club who has a live event every year and the people really want to stay the attendees, want to stay connected.

So she has. Community-based membership that that goes throughout the year and that is, she's not providing, she's doing prompts and events and things inside that, but it's really about people staying connected and, and being inspired by the connections to take action and, and do the things that she's encouraging them to do for themselves.

So those are three types and you can have all three. I just want people to really know what is your strength? Like? What is your strong. Suit in those three. And if you need to gradually build up because you don't have loads and loads of members you're, cause you'll have a lot more in a membership of a thousand people than you will have 10, because if you've got [00:24:00] 10, people are getting access to you and they're getting.

Handheld a bit more. So you don't have to put in all the things that a thousand person membership would need to be successful because they're going to be a little more on their own and lost. If you don't have a few things, they can access in different ways. So that that's really just. How do you focus on the one thing that you will do consistently every month?

Even if he changed like times call times and types of content and all that, it's just rather than feeling you have to stuff everything in and have everything firing because it doesn't have to, like I said, I don't mind because I have calls and I do. Guest experts and like, I've got good content in there.

I don't feel like if everyone doesn't want to chit chat in the community all the time, I'm not necessarily going to put a prompt in every single day. 

Sarah: I love that. I just started a a Trello board for our community because I just really, really did not want to do Facebook, did [00:25:00] not want to do mighty networks.

Did not want to do discord or slack. And yet the community wanted a way to be able to engage, which makes sense in between the calls. But I made it very clear that this is not going to be the place where I'm going to ask, you know, what did you have for dinner lights tonight, or what's your favorite, blah, blah, blah.

And. And my people, they know that about we're all the same. We're like, no, no, no, we want a focused thing. And so Trello works really well for that. And I think that's also what you're telling your clients. It's like, choose what you're already good at and, and, and yeah. Make that even better. So 

Lisa: yeah, like to try to find what you like, if you don't want to be on Facebook.

Don't get on Facebook unless you've got something so obvious that if you not on Facebook, because it's like, your interest is like people who love certain kinds of dogs that do certain kind of dog things, and you want to have everyone in the whole world [00:26:00] be part of it that you know, that, that don't have a lot of technical savvy.

Sarah: So difficult on LinkedIn. 

Lisa: Yeah. Or, well, there's not, I don't even know if there's a proper group. Yeah, there is. But it doesn't work very well. You do want people just to show up and consume the content. And so. Even if I have a, have a slot community and it works really well, cause it's really organized. I love how organized it is.

Probably similar to Trello in that it's kind of got some linear Ines to it and it's like, it's not I don't expect everyone to get all their information from there. I still email everybody every week with, and they all open their emails and that's still going to be probably. Full stop. Like every, every week, if you really want to know what's going on and don't want to miss something, then that going to go there.

So I think that's just how you can run it until conversations can begin more organically and then you don't even have to be prompting. So if the goal isn't to get everyone to connect and get to know each other, On and [00:27:00] communicate regularly. If the goal is a different transformation, like I want you to be successful in this thing, then it doesn't have to be your number one focus because that's going to overwhelm you.

And it's also going to overwhelm you. If you feel like people should be chatting it all the time when there's, when there's not very many people. I mean, there's a, there's a number that. One of my members actually shared with me. She said something about the rule of 99 and one you'll have one ambassador, really engaged person.

Who's always in there and always talking, you'll have nine who are in, in and out, and then you'll have 90 who are alert and they're still not having small membership. That's what your probability of engagement is going to be. 

Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. And the other thing. What I love, what you're saying is like don't overwhelm yourself thinking that a membership site has to have thousands and thousands of videos already as you start.

Right? Because obviously if we look [00:28:00] at some of the big membership sites that's. 

Lisa: There's history, right? There's a lot in there from the past. 

Sarah: Yeah. And so people can feel like, oh my God, I can never start one because I don't have all of this content. And so you're saying, well, then don't make it a content-based membership.

Lisa: Well, or start with them. Like I actually am. We just have this call yesterday. And I actually have had couple content calls this week with bootcamp, people and members of the proper membership club. And. I like, I just say, look, layer, like, start with them. Like if you have month one, and you're just starting with your founding members and deliver a month of one, and if you have months to, because you're standing, starting with your foundational content, the things that are the most important, the things that you know best and that you believe people need first.

So rather than opening it up like a. Choose your own adventure. I would say, look at it more like where do they need to begin and how do you take them together on it rather [00:29:00] than feel like you have a smorgasbord? Because I don't think people really want to dabble and you know, let's face it. Most things people can learn for free somewhere out there on the internet.

So they're paying you for curation. They're paying you for a system to some extent to say like, or even just. Helping them remind them that they need to go back to the beginning. Like I always say that a lot of my members it's like, can you just go back to module one because they're still not doing the module one.

Like they still won't go back to the foundation course or they're there. So I'm always reminding them to go back to that thing that they last said that they would do if there's. Launched their membership yet. Right. So I think that's where we have the, they're paying us in a way for that guide for that.

It, it guidance. And even if we are like a large membership, there's still ways that people can ask I'm stuck. Where should I go? That's part of the benefit. And that is really the value rather than going out there on the internet and scouring it and trying to piece together a plan. Right. So I think that's where we don't.

We can start just with. [00:30:00] Hey, here's a, I have a foundational course. That's nine modules. So I've started two cohorts of here's what we're going to work through this together week by week. And that's been how two enrollments worked in my membership program. I walked them through the modules and that was really helpful for them.

So I think that's where you don't have to do that. But I also feel like if people are starting and you just have a hundred things, They're not going to want to go through a hundred things, right? 

Sarah: Yeah. It's just too, again, it's just overwhelmed. It's like, oh, where do I start? Why did I sign up for this I'm feeling?

Lisa: Yeah. They get one thing a month. They get one focus a month that they're not paying unless, you know, well, and actually even at high ticket, depends on the value of that to them, but I, you don't have to give them. You know, a thousand dollars of value in the first month, if you're charging less than that.

So you have to realize that that if it's a hundred dollars a month, then it's 10 months and they can pick up as they go. [00:31:00] And, and then if they have a founding members rate there, they're paying less than say someone else who comes in later and might be paying double per month. And they might have access to some past things, but they probably won't even go in there and look for it.

I mean, people still don't even know how to get around mine and I don't have that much in there, but they still, I have the still direct them to what I think I want them to watch. Yeah. Or like, or looking at. Yeah, no, they, 

Sarah: they come for the ongoing, they don't come for 

Lisa: all this stuff. That's exactly. Most people that don't have the capacity to, to look through everything.

Yeah. Otherwise you're 

video1044023036: spending 

Sarah: your time managing, say, you know, pointing people to where it is and that can. Cumbersome once you have a lot of members, 

Lisa: I end dimension. So you just need a really good roadmap when you start 

Sarah: or, or a help desk or 

Lisa: something. Yeah, absolutely. That's a good problem that we can deal with.

Good problems. We just want to make sure that. We are not operating that way when we're not that big. 

Sarah: [00:32:00] Yeah. Let's talk about how do you keep members because, you know, first, I guess we're struggling. Okay. How do we get members? But really what we're wanting to do is it's a sustainable concept that people aren't going to stay and, you know, hopefully for a year, maybe even longer, depending on, I guess, depending on the type of membership site But how do we get people 

Lisa: to stay?

So to me, it's a funny one. I really just think it comes down to be awesome and be a great deal, like really good value. Like people, whatever you're offering does need to be a good value exchange for them. I mean, people who use things even in a small way, Or appreciate that the resources there when they need it, like they will, they will stay because it's, it's a good value.

And so that's why people often do a founding member rate because people are like, Hmm, [00:33:00] I might not use this next month, but I'm still paying half the price of people now or something like that. And they're like, okay. So if I skip every other month of actually doing something, it's still worth it to me or.

They get on a call, they learn one really, really important thing that changes how they do things. And that ROI is huge. So I think first of all, you'd know who your ideal member is, and you have to be clear that if someone, like, for example, someone's in the profit membership club and they, they changed their mind about memberships or they're like, I'm not going to do, I'm not going to, this is not, not long, no longer my goal or I'm, I'm putting off indefinitely then.

There, and then why would they stay? I mean, although if they're growing any kind of business, I still can help them in a way, but in their head they're like, oh, I'm here to learn about memberships there for, even if I'm learning about marketing and positioning and all the things you need to do for any program, it still means that it doesn't feel like it's the right fit for them.

Or they're just [00:34:00] like, yeah. Or they're just taking a massive break and they're just going back to a one-on-one client. So they don't have to do any marketing or anything. So the point of that is that yes, I've picked that lane and saying I help membership business owners and people who want to launch them.

That clarity brings people to me, easier her, like I'm here because I want this, this outcome. And then the trade-off is that you are not attractive to those who don't want that outcome, even though you could help them. But then that would water down the conversations and the focus and the sharing. And you just get really clear on who you help and what the transformation is.

And then. That grows naturally because it's easy to share something that's easy to share. Right? So if you're clear about who you help and in what way, and you always talk to those people and you always produce content that would appeal to those people and et cetera, that's how you, that's, how you be relevant to them.

And if [00:35:00] you're, if you're not. Sorry. It's the positioning really? That, yeah, all the positioning. I think it's all the positioning. And then as your membership matures, it is a little bit about the community and connection, because there are people who will stay because they just love you, or they love the other people they've met and they want to stay connected.

And it is the mentor. There's some kind of mentorship connect community thing that is working for them. Helping them. Do more, better or less, you know, in an easier way. Like, it just, it does add value to them and you know, that stuff is priceless. Right. And people will know it. They will know if they're like, oh, I've networked.

Or I met somebody and they, they, they gave me an opportunity that led to a client. And now I've paid for my membership for the year. I mean that, those relationships really do matter. So I think that that's why I'm not into all the tactics. Like you can do this thing and get them to do this [00:36:00] thing. I just want people to stay because it's the right for them, right?

Yeah. And I want people who are committed, honestly. Like I, I know not, everyone's always committed to their goals all the time, but when you do get a group of people who are really committed and are following through and are taking action, you've got a really great place to be. And that's really the foundation of what you want for your membership.

When you start our. Even if it builds slowly, you build that fire that can actually last and sustain because it keeps, you know, people who keep getting, like, adding to it who are, are, are also committed and then has sort of a life force of its own. That people can, that will see and feel, even if they're just lurking and saying, I'm not doing this thing yet, but I want to because look at all these other people, so they might be there for inspiration.

Yeah. That brings me 

Sarah: to another question because usually the membership model is like pay monthly and [00:37:00] cancel whenever you want. Yeah. And that kind of contradicts to committed, you know, it's like, yes, we want you to commit, but yes, you can also cancel every month. So do we have to follow this model where it's like, you can cancel anytime or, or do we say we'd love for you to stay for three months at least, or, 

Lisa: or, yeah, I, I would, I mean, I even suggest that when you're launching.

I suggest that because sometimes it might take a while to get your feet, you know, grounded and with what you're offering and how, and learning a few things. Then you do need to have a few months where you can. Yeah, a little bit of stuff worked out. So I would, yeah, I would, I would agree that it's good to get people.

Like I had a few times where it was three months to start and then some people do a year. I mean, some people do longer and I think that's fine too. I think it's up to you. Because, yes, you'll get more committed. You'll get less. Like looky-loos like, you will get less people [00:38:00] who aren't committed and they won't join and then you just get more people.

So there is a religious that trade off about what is the membership about to you anyway? Is it access to anyone at any time for when they need it or is it, is it really meant for people who are. Committed only and in a smaller group. And I think that's what you just have to decide. And what, what matters to you?

Like what, what, and how kind of big your, your reaches and how much you're charging? Like could you, you know, could, could you sustain it if you didn't have some people here joining for maybe three to six months? Yeah, it's a, it's a personal choice. I mean, what really, to me, divine defines a membership is that you lose access when you cancel.

So regardless you cancel you, you don't have the materials on like a course that you might have. And you've got lifetime access to it, which I think everything's starting to change a little bit on that. [00:39:00] And a lot of people are letting me losing, I guess, still stopping access to things when the time is up and they want them to keep paying, have continued access.

So a lot of things are changing to subscription in general. However you know, you just decide on, on, what's going to get you a secure foothold to get started. And if you have a group of founding members and they're paying an irresistible price, that'll also keep them. 

Sarah: I do think, yeah, obviously everything is going much more in the direction of subscription, but living in the times that we are in right now, people are also kind of starting to count their subscriptions because you know, used to be new, to have a subscription now is like, Everything is subscription.

And so people are really more mindful. Okay. Again, do I get value out of 

Lisa: this? Am I using 

Sarah: it? Yeah. So, 

Lisa: so you're, again, retention is about getting people to use it. Yeah. And, and, [00:40:00] and like, there's only so much within your control because if they're just not interested in the results any more than there. Then then they shouldn't be using it.

And if they still are interested in the result, how do you bring them back in and remind them? What's what's here. That's, that's the communication piece. And it is okay to check in once in a while, if you haven't heard from a member and you're still small and be like, Hey, do you want to do a quick chat? I mean, I did one recently with someone who hadn't joined the community and hadn't showed up in a call and she's like, I've been really busy working in my.

And in her career and, but I've been working through the course and I loving it and she's built through the whole court and she went through it kind of she's in academia very academically and went through all the modules. And I had no idea. So we make assumptions that people aren't using it to when they actually are.

They're just not, we're just not seeing them use it. Yeah. 

Sarah: That's funny. Cause I. Community to humane marketing circle is more about community and it's a think tank to figure out and talk to each other about [00:41:00] what works in marketing and what doesn't work. So and it's interesting that, you know, there's members that are never on the call.

And yet I see, because I use Kajabi, I see that they're watching all the replays and one of them is sending me an email every time after the call. And she's like, I get a lot out of it, you know, even though I'm not on the live calls, so you can't assume what people want. So if it works for 

Lisa: her, it works for me.

Exactly, exactly. That's that's the other thing we have to recognize is that we can. We're not as in much control as another program where it's like, here's the, the set out, like we're going to meet three times a month. This is the time everyone has to show up because it's a mastermind. We're not running that kind of program.

So we do have to let go a little bit and trust that people are going to self lead because that's what they're there for and make decisions that are right for them. And so that's so really just becomes about who are the people who are in the community. Sitting on the fence, not taking [00:42:00] action because they need, they need a little bit more guidance than that's.

That's really who you have an ability to help, because really you do want people to get results too. You don't want people that are in there and happy to also keep paying, but then doing nothing. I mean, you do the swine. It's like, it's their choice, but the more of them that you can actually start to.

Take action and be grateful for it and be good examples. That's really how you will become successful naturally in this model. 

Sarah: Yeah. It nurtures you as the host of the, of the membership or 

Lisa: the community. Totally, totally. 

Sarah: So good. I'm looking at the time and I think it's starting to get time to wrap up, even though I have tons of other questions we might have to do around two 

Lisa: anytime.

Sarah: Yeah. Do you, do you tell them. Where people can find you maybe have something free that you want to [00:43:00] share, but tell us all about, 

Lisa: yeah. Well, the coolest thing I have is an app. So I have a scaling deep app, which you can go onto and get all the, like, get all the trainings that I have scattered around the globe.

There there's some of them aren't even available. So there's a scaling team app that is, is there that you can access that. Cool stuff. And if you're not an app person, you can go head on over to my website, scaling deep.com. I have like a, a free download on how to set up, how to scale your business with a membership site.

You can get that at scaling gate.com/playbook and yeah. Or just come find me. I've got a Facebook group. I've got all kinds of ways, but you can see all that. If you land on my homepage on my website. Wonderful. 

Sarah: I have one last question and that's what are you grateful for today or this week? 

Lisa: I think I just grateful right now for my energy because of how to an energetic week running the bootcamp.

And I've just felt really good. I'm grateful that I've feel like I'm in purpose and I've been having so much fun [00:44:00] that I've been focused on serving sustainably in a way, and also building assets. So I'm less, I'm less, I'm doing it for reasons of like needing to meet. Hit certain goals or certain outcomes.

So just really feeling grateful for the, for the momentum I'm creating in my business. And the trust that I know that things are going in the right direction, then that's just a really good feeling. We don't always have it. So I'm super grateful for that. 

Sarah: Yeah. And that's such a good, last word on, on memberships because we can get lost in those launches and just focus on numbers and how many new members do I need.

So I think it's such a beautiful way to wrap this up and say, well, yeah, Enjoy the energy and, and enjoy serving the people who are there. So 

Lisa: we got a lot of the work or else we, yeah, it's not the right word. 

Sarah: Amazing. Thank you so much for being a guest on the humane marketing podcast. 

Lisa: You're so welcome.

Thanks for having me.[00:45:00] [00:46:00] 

My guest today is William (or Bill) Allen whom I met on the HSP Entrepreneur summit that Rose Cox organized last year. And we are talking about his experience doing business as a highly sensitive person.

William is a first-time author with a writer's heart and researcher's mind. After getting a degree in Psychology with an eye on doing psychology research, he recalibrated for a career in Information Technology. He found himself in a thirty-year career as an Information Technology manager at Wells Fargo who enjoyed managing highly intelligent, often difficult staff, many of whom were highly sensitive. He was awarded a prestigious Corporate Management Excellence award for his empathetic management style.

In late 2016, he began his blog, The Sensitive Man, about his experiences, as a highly sensitive man. The blog became the genesis of his book, Confessions of a Sensitive Man. He feels that HSP males need to take their keen insights and intuition and make them public. He would like to shed more light on highly sensitive males and the much-needed role they need to take in our society.

In this episode, you'll learn about doing business as a highly sensitive person as well as...

• What does it mean to be Highly Sensitive (HSP)?
• Can men be sensitive and still be masculine?
• How can we be more sensitive in business?
• What's our role to play in business?
• And much more…

 

William's Resources

 

William's Website

Connect with William on:

Facebook

LinkedIn

Sarah's Resources

Watch this episode on Youtube

(FREE) Sarah's One Page Marketing Plan

(FREE) Sarah Suggests Newsletter

(FREE) The Humane Business Manifesto

(FREE) Gentle Confidence Mini-Course

Marketing Like We're Human - Sarah's book

The Humane Marketing Circle

Authentic & Fair Pricing Mini-Course

Podcast Show Notes

Email Sarah at [email protected]

Thanks for listening!

 

After you listen, check out Humane Business Manifesto, an invitation to belong to a movement of people who do business the humane and gentle way and disrupt the current marketing paradigm. You can download it for free at this page. There's no opt-in. Just an instant download.

Are you enjoying the podcast?  The Humane Marketing show is listener-supported—I'd love for you to become an active supporter of the show and join the Humane Marketing Circle. You will be invited to a private monthly Q&A call with me and fellow Humane Marketers -  a safe zone to hang out with like-minded conscious entrepreneurs and help each other build our business and grow our impact.  — I'd love for you to join us! Learn more at humane.marketing/circle

Don't forget to subscribe to the show on iTunes or on Android to get notified for all my future shows and why not sign up for my weekly(ish) "Sarah Suggests Saturdays", a round-up of best practices, tools I use, books I read, podcasts, and other resources.

Raise your hand and join the Humane Business Revolution.

Warmly,

Sarah

Imperfect Transcript of the show

We use and love Descript to edit our podcast and provide this free transcript of the episode. And yes, that's an affiliate link.

Sarah: [00:00:00] Hi bill I'm. So looking forward to our conversation. Thank you so much for being a guest on the humane marketing podcast. 

William: Thanks, Sarah. And I am so delighted to be with you and looking forward to it. 

Sarah: Yeah. So we're going to go right deep into it as we do as highly sensitive people. And also as introverts, I find that we like to go deep.

And so that's really also the topic of our conversation to talk about high sensitivity in business and. And what that means, and, and you identify as a highly sensitive male. So I'm really curious to hear the story about when you found out that you are a highly sensitive person and, and what that meant, like what changed when you found that out and learned more about what this trade is all about?

So can you take us there and tell us. [00:01:00] 

William: Sure. I, you know, I think my whole life I've known there's something different about me. I grew up in a very traditional part of the United States and we're. Male masculine role models were set in stone, so to speak and you had to follow along. And I found a lot of times it was hard for me to do that, and I knew that was something different about it, but this was way before Dr.

Erin had published her book on high sensitivity. And it was probably just kind of in a sort of very formative stages with some of the other research that was going on about high sensitivity and children and so forth. But I had no navigational tools for that. And so I spent most of my life adapting myself to what.

Men were expected to be like, and that was kind of going against my authentic self, but nevertheless, pressed on, because that was the pressure that I think a lot of men find [00:02:00] themselves under is trying to project this masculine side that doesn't allow for some of these other things that we term as sensitive.

Probably about mid 2005 or 2006, somewhere around there. I found Dr. Aron's book. It was actually, somebody had sent me a newsletter and it was about high sensitivity and they had recommended the book highly. So I picked the book up and I read. And like, I think like most highly sensitive people, I went to the book and said, yep, that's me.

That's me. That's me. That's me. That's me. And it, it resonated with me because it was the first time in any one particular place that I had seen. So many of the things, characteristics and traits that I. Enumerated and explained in one place. And so it really did make a lot of sense to me, but there is this problem.

I was as a male, I was having a difficult time grasping [00:03:00] endorsing, you know, and believing that I was quote unquote, a sensitive man. And that was kind of the difficult point for me, even though I knew and acknowledged it, all these characteristics did fit me. The term sensitive was just something that kind of was like a roadblock for me mentally.

And it honestly took me through about 10 years of mulling this over. Cause because it's kind of very much like a highly sensitive person anyway, is mulling this over and over in my head until probably about 2016. I started writing a blog about it. I think. This would be a good way of me putting my hand around it and doing a little research and understanding.

And so I wrote a book, I mean, a blog for a couple of years and I just hit all the topics that I wanted to know about as a highly sensitive man. And by doing that. It was a way of allowing me to embrace and get answers for questions I had. And then eventually as a result of writing the blog, I wrote [00:04:00] my first book confessions of a sensitive man.

And that's when I put it all together. And I think at that moment, this was a couple of years ago at that moment that I was doing that, I finally really started to say, you know what, this is who you are. There's nothing to be ashamed of. And this actually is quite a gift. And so that's when I, the sort of the loved ones, I read that my arms around being a sensitive man and saying, this is, this is who I am, and I'm not gonna apologize for it anymore.

And that was a kind of a Eureka moment for me. So it was like the initial launch. You know, in the early two thousands, a ten-year period of struggling with it. I think a lot of men do have that problem. And it's, it's funny because it's not necessarily the trade it's the label that we give the trait that a lot of men struggle with and they kind of reject it.

Yeah, it's 

Sarah: interesting because I feel like, I guess the [00:05:00] experience is in this case, very different between. Men and women because the women, yes, there is some of that as well. Right. The criticism, or you're just so sensitive and, but it's, it's more probably seen as something positive in a woman where you're right.

It's more negative in, in a, in a man. I remember reading this line that you said that your father told you, are you a man or are you a mouse? So, so it, it comes with this traditional upbringing and the idea that we think, well, men have to be strong and the opposite of, you know, sensitive. I guess the experience is very different, even though there might be struggle also with being in a female body experiencing being a highly sensitive person, but it's very different.

Let let's look at, besides the term Sensitive let's look at the trade by itself. Like there's a lot of listeners on [00:06:00] this show that don't know what high sensitive, highly sensitive person what that means. Right. It just, maybe that's just a term that we, we came up with and we think, oh yeah, I'm very sensitive to certain things, but it's actually a, a personality trait.

So can you tell us a little bit more about that? 

William: Certainly ha highly, since highly sensitive people are high sensitivity is the scientific name for it is called sensory processing sensitivity. And that's a mouthful. Most people are used to the terminology, high sensitive, but sensory processing sensitivity is kind of the theory.

And this is the thing that Dr. Aaron has been expounding for the last 30 years, sensory processing sensitivity. Is part of a larger theory called environmental sensitivity theory, and it has many different models underneath it. One of which is sensory processing sensitivity. And what environmental sensitivity [00:07:00] theory is addressing is how does the organism.

React to the environment they're red. It's basically an environmental reaction to various environmental stimuli and so forth. Sensory processing, sensitivity individuals fall on a spectrum of sensitivity, right? And you think of a bell curve, right. Something we all remember from. High school math and at the very top end of this bell curve, which is really a curve about how sensitive people are within the environment they're in.

Okay. The 20, 25%. And I'm now I'm hearing as high as 30% of human population has this trait of sensory processing sensitivity. Okay. That doesn't mean that the other 80% don't have it. It just means simply that those people at the Hyatt experience, environmental changes more. Pronounced. And so if it's a positive change, they react positive.

It gets a negative change. They react [00:08:00] negatively. And the people that follow them, the other 80% react in a much more different way. And they've got to divide into three groups, the ones on the least and are called and they use a flower metaphor, which I think most people could understand. Dandelions are on the low end.

They're very Hardy. They can adapt very well, easily and less sensitive to the environment. Tulips are in the mix. They're a little hardier than say the highly sensitive people are, but still nonetheless, they are affected by the environment as well. And then there's the orchids, which is what they call the highly sensitive people.

Now with all that said, what I'm trying to say by this is that yes, there are individual characteristics that we acknowledge for highly sensitive people, but it's, it's a much broader thing. You're just overly reactive to things, or you're just too emotionally sensitive or you're too impacted by criticism or you're too frail.

It's much more than that. What the outside world sees when they see those things. Is is the [00:09:00] reaction that we're having to environmental changes around us. Okay. And so it could be sensory environmental stuff. It could be emotional stuff, et cetera, et cetera. Now there's four characteristics, right? That we recognize now for highly sensitive people.

And it's, you can use the acronym. Does D O E S D stands for depth, the process and highly sensitive people have this capacity. To take data information and process it at a very deep level. That means they connect dots, that push things together. Sometimes it leads to overthinking surely, but for the most part, you wind up with.

Creative output if given the time and the space to do this deep processing, that high sensitive people do. That's why so many, highly creative people are highly sensitive because they have this capacity to do this. The O stands for overstimulation, which is something that happens as a result of being, getting too much data and having too much processing you have to do.

Yeah. That's something [00:10:00] that a lot of people see and they, the term that comes from. You're too sensitive or you're being sensitive makes you weak, but that's not true. If you were getting the kind of data. That we were, we get typically in the high end of the sensitivity scale, it would be overwhelming for most people to, especially if you're doing all this processing with it as well.

So it does get overwhelming at times. So that's a characteristic E stands for emotional reactivity. This is another thing that people tend to associate the highly sensitive people. We feel deeply, very deeply. We feel emotions at a very deep level. And that a lot of times appears to people to be overreacting.

But in fact, it's simply just the way we process emotional information. The other part of the E is empathy. We're extremely empathetic people. We care about people. Lot of us are in the helping professions are doing things that help people do. That's where our heart [00:11:00] is. We're very empathetic individuals.

And it's not, I don't know the exact physical mechanism that causes. There's a thing we refer to as mirror neurons that we all have, whether you're sensitive or not, that allows you to mirror back to the person you're with. In a, as a communication establishing link, right? So I don't know whether highly sensitive people have more mirror neurons or they have more finely defined in tune, mirror neurons.

I don't know, but the fact is it's very important. And part of that empathetic part of us also can make us a little naive sometimes and trusting people. So it, is it be, it could be a two edge sword. The last. Is the sensory part of it. The doctor calls it, sensing the subtle in the environment. I'm not, I'm not sure that our sensory organs are more powerful or whatever, but I do think the filters that pass that information on.

Are more open with us. I'd like to think of it like [00:12:00] an aperture and a camera. Ours is a little bit more open or maybe a lot more open depending on who we're comparing ourselves to, but it passes a lot of stuff to us. So the metaphor I always use, the analogy I always use is if you're walking into a party, a highly sensitive person will be that person who notices that the music may be too loud, that there's someone with perfume or cologne.

And the other side of the room that it's too powerful. Or it could be something like we sense a vibe in the room because looking at body cues and things like that, we sense those things. We pick out that nuanced information and that makes us kind of valuable when you're talking about. One of the greater purposes for highly sensitive people is to serve as kind of Canary in the coal mine is to serve as a kind of an early warning system.

So all four of those characteristics are the ones that are scientifically evidence-based characteristics. Now, a lot of people will talk about other things. Those are the four main ones that I like to kind of [00:13:00] stick with those, because we do know that there's evidence for them, 

Sarah: So much in what you just shared.

And, and it's kind of, it's funny because my, my brain is almost like overstimulated right now by listening to. These different concepts, but I think what would help also here is to give some specific examples. So I can give one, cause I, I just you know, experienced a four day workshop that I attended after not being anywhere in person, any kind of in-person events.

So I, I went to this four day workshop 50 people. And I knew as an HSP, you kind of know already in advance. You're like, oh my God, this is going to be a lot. How am I going to deal with this? I hope I'm not going to get sick because of the overwhelm. So this is a very specific example where. As a highly sensitive [00:14:00] person, you need to kind of know your boundaries.

You need to know when you want to be engaged. And when you want to have alone time, because you do need this extra processing time. And, and I admit that. I'm not there yet. Like, I still had very bad nights asleep because it was just so much information. Not just, I'm not just talking about the content, but just even meeting all these new people, my brain needs just do analyze everything.

And that's that deep processing that then often, unfortunately, Over, you know, instead of sleeping. And, and so that's a specific example that I can think of right now. What example could you share bill? Well, 

William: I think, I think that's a, that's a great example. It could be very easily generalized to just about every highly sensitive person.

Although most highly sensitive people are introverts 70% [00:15:00] of. There's still a 30%. There are extroverts that you would think the extroverted high sensitive people would, would thrive in an environment where they're out meeting and greeting people and going like that. But the reality is they still have to have that downtime.

So those things that you were talking about, that's always been something that I've had challenges with is getting out there, trying to do something new or try to do something that is. Not familiar for me and having to process all this kind of data, that I'm feedback data that I'm getting about, how I'm doing.

A lot of that may be coming from me. It may be coming from people that I'm working with or people that I'm around. But that seems to be one area, especially with highly sensitive people that I think can be generalized to just about everybody in this category is because at some point you're right, you get out there.

You're, you're trying something new. And you have to give yourself, allow [00:16:00] yourself the time to do this downtime, this assimilation process of doing things. That's one of the things with highly sensitive people too, that I think is kind of problematic. It's one, there's a lot of people out there who are highly sensitive, who don't know it, or they.

I've never heard of highest since I've talked to people all the time and I, as I've talking to them, they go, you know, I think I'm highly sensitive and suddenly you see the light bulb go on. So that's part of the problem is getting people to embrace and understand the. And the other part is once you understand it, now you have an understanding, cause you've got a framework to work with is how do you deal with these times when you are overwhelmed?

How do you deal with those times when you're out in the public eye or you're in a social function or whatever, what is it that you need to, how do you do that? You said something really great about boundaries too, because I highly sensitive people combos have this kind of. Loose boundary system that allows too [00:17:00] much in sometimes.

And in some times, in some cases allows the wrong people in who can crossover these boundaries that we should be setting up and it causes a an so an emotional effect on us. So part of it is learning to deal with, with the, the characteristics. Cause there are challenges to them. But it's still on whole, is this great and wonderful gift.

And that's part of doing that part of assimilating. That is the idea of how do I deal with those moments when I struggle, when I, you know, overstimulated or I I'm feeling too deeply and it's not the appropriate time. How do I regulate myself? So those are kinds of things that I think highly sensitive people need to learn to be able to do, because those kinds of experiences you're talking about.

Half an hour all the time, especially to heart sensitive people.

Sarah: I feel like the struggles. So the things where we need to learn, how to deal with [00:18:00] having that trait that's kinda what we focus on because we don't really understand how we would be if we didn't have to trade. And we don't know. How much he brings to us. So you mentioned, for example, as a positive, it's connecting the dots or, you know, sensing the room and then making adjustments to me, that is just so natural that I listen and then I go, oh, okay.

Here's the answer that. I don't know how it would be if I didn't have the traits. So that doesn't necessarily come out as a positive to me. What I do see though is how society is not meant or, you know, quotation marks for HSPs. And so it always feels like, oh, I need to fight against a system. So it, yeah.

Do you recognize yourself in that? 

William: Absolutely. And I think part of, part of it again is [00:19:00] this is a. When I visit a lot of social media groups where they're talking about high sensitive topics. Very often, I think what's happening is a lot of people who are new to the trade are coming on line with it.

And naturally you want to go someplace where you've got other people like yourself, but the focus tends to be on, I won't say necessarily the negative side, but the, certainly the challenges and the focus seems to go there as opposed to. How do you deal with it? Or how do I, how do I cope with this? And a lot of people do jump in and that is, what's great about the support side of that.

But the idea ultimately is to say, okay, this is a, a wonderful gift and like most wonderful gifts. There's a price you have to pay for having it. It's just a kind of a balancing thing with it. And I think As highly sensitive people, we need to learn these little strategies, these tips and things. And none of this is complicated.

I mean, it's just not as putting them all [00:20:00] together in the framework of who you are as a highly sensitive person. And when you do that, you start to realize I could do this breathing exercise. It can calm me down, or I definitely need to go. So. For 25, 30 minutes an hour or two hours, and just calm down and relax and process.

Once you understand that's part of your normal wiring, that's how your brain works. It's not a, it's not a dysfunction. Then you approach it diff because you see it in a different light. Now, you know, this is how I'm constructed. 

Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. So good to kind of stay with the positive side. What, how do you saying, can we be more sensitive in business and what kind of role do we get to play as highly sensitive people in this?

I call it the new business paradigm, you know, kind of the post COVID to me, that is the beginning of the new business paradigm. So how [00:21:00] does that look like and what can our role be? 

William: I think we have a very significant role to play, not only in business, but in, in all aspects of life, but let's focus on business because frankly, most of us spend most of our life doing some type of business, whether we're running a business, a small business, or we're part of a large corporate environment or large company or whatever.

And I think highly sensitive people. Can have positive effects on both environments. It may be a little more difficult. And I keep hearing this over and over again, that for highly sensitive people, very often doing the entrepreneurial thing is, is more conducive to setting the environment that you need to have in order to be happy and thrive.

But it does have its own challenges because you're it, you're the boss. You're the one who has to make everything work. And if you've got employees, you've got to make it work for them too. In the corporate environment. It's a little more challenge because it's more [00:22:00] confined. You can only do so many things and so forth, but I think.

From a corporate perspective, highly sensitive people can start having an impact on how the environment is constructed because that's so important to us. Right. What kind of a seating situation there is? Is there good lighting is it is, is Is it too hot or too cold in there. And the environment are is there too much noise, too many distractions, et cetera, et cetera.

And there's some things probably that we could detect and participate in trying to evolve the environment we're working in and a more empathetic way in looking at how we treat others and within the environment, especially in, within management and within areas that where you're leading people, right.

On the entrepreneurial side, I think this is really where we can shine because frankly we can define a business that a is successful. And yet still adheres to, and I love the term you use the humane part of business. This part of [00:23:00] business unfortunately seems to be getting further and further away from us.

And I really think what's happening. COVID being the great example is that's opened up. So out of the box here Pandora's box, if you will open up that box and we can look at what we do and how we do things, and that can help HSPs could be instrumental there as well by saying. These kinds of things are more conducive to my better work environment.

It probably will be. So for other people as well, not necessarily everybody, but it will, there are certain things, kindness in business, you know, it's not always about competing is sometimes it's about cooperating. So that everyone benefits from something, these are the kind of concepts that are. To highly sensitive people because of our empathetic nature and are wanting to be good stewards, not only of our environment, whether it's work environment, whether it's our life.[00:24:00] 

But that's some of the things I think that highly sensitive people can do to affect change and your good ideas and your good thinking and all those things are important, but we tend to be wallflowers when it comes to. Participating in that way, we don't feel like our ideas are good enough. We don't feel like they're going to be accepted.

And this is where we need to start recognizing again, our strength and where that is in terms of what we bring to the table. That being able to observe things that other people are missing means that we may have to work a little harder to get the point across, but it doesn't make it less valid because nobody else has seen it.

Mm. Sometimes we're the first ones to see it. And I think in, in, in both entrepreneurial world and corporate world, I think those things are valuable characteristics to be able to be a good creative problem solver and be very empathetic and intuitive. 

Sarah: Yeah. When, when you said we, [00:25:00] we are sometimes the first ones to see the problem and others don't see it at yet.

That definitely resonates with me with, you know, my journey from gentle marketing to humane marketing. And, and only now really people are like, Oh, yeah, that's exactly what we need. We need a humane marketing revolution, but 2, 3, 4 years ago, I started talking about that and nobody, I was like, hello, you know, I'm all by myself here.

And, and, and it's yeah, again, I would kind of say, well, it's a gift, but it's kind of a hidden gift because I felt I really felt alone, but I agree with you that. That's, those are the Mavericks that we need to bring the change. Right. Otherwise, nothing changes if nobody sees the new things that need to be brought in.

So yeah, sometimes 

William: it's, it's not just seeing something new, but it's also [00:26:00] seeing something that's missing, you know, like a puzzle piece that's not there yet. And being able to recognize that that's. You know maybe a standard way of doing things at this point that needs to be because it's missing, right.

That's again, that's what I love about this humane marketing and humane sales and things that you have written about is because that's the framework we need to be operating under. And if we're going to really shift the way business looks at things and how business interacts with the insurance. At the fundamental core level, it has to be more human.

It has to be about protecting all of us. And I think that it starts with that kind of shall we call it sensitivity to what's going on in the business? 

Sarah: Yeah. Now, bill, you kinda know the story that the transformation from gentle, the word gentle that I used before to then [00:27:00] switching to humane and, and I found it interesting, kind of the resistance I got from mainly from the male audience to the word gentle.

Everybody else kinda loved the word gentle, but a lot of males. Well either they were not attracted to it at all, or if they were they're like, yeah, you know, it's not a great word. And so the minute I changed it to humane, a lot of more men are now showing up and saying, yeah, that, that is interesting to us.

So what do you, what are you thoughts on, on this? How come we can be sensitive? Do you words, just like we said before, you know, highly sensitive people, P men are like, Ooh, I don't know. I don't want to be that. I think it's the same with the word gender. 

William: Exactly. I don't know. I'm absolutely positive. It is.

Although, you know, it's a lot of it don't have the problem being called a [00:28:00] gentle man when a gentleman, right. They don't have a problem with that, but they do have a problem with, if you were to cut the word in half and say gentle man, they might find that a little different to the tape and assimilate.

Yeah. You know, when we talk about things like sensitivity and why it's so hard for, especially for men, but it's hard for a lot of people too, because if you've been labeled your whole life as being too sensitive and that's been considered to be not a good thing, Then the last thing you want to do is be called sensitive because all those memories, all that maybe unconscious material that, that was negative to you has been associated with a, a very neutral word sensitive, right.

It really is more sensitive as more about. Sensory than it is about emotional reactivity or anything else. In fact, I was D D I wrote a blog article about sensitivity and what's wrong with the word general. I mean, with what's wrong with the [00:29:00] word sensitive. And I looked it up, you know, I looked up at Webster's type definition for it.

Nowhere in there was. Sensory processing sensitivity, you know, it was, it was frail or weak or overly emotional, whatever, those kinds of terms. So that sort of is why so many people struggle with it. Now with men. And I even highly sensitive, man, I've had highly sensitive men telling me, well, if I'm around a bunch of highly sensitive guys, I don't mind using the term, but if I'm in a place where there is a mixed crowd, I just can't see myself using it.

And so I think that's why there is a sort of gentle movement. I like that to sort of shift away from sense sensitive is a term that we refer to ourselves as, and moving it towards high sensory intelligence. This is something Dr. Tracy Cooper is working on with a few others, and the idea is to give it a much more positive sort of connotation.

Then it's like, we all know. [00:30:00] That there's nothing wrong with the term word sensitive. It's just that if you throw it out in the world, it comes back with mud on it. I don't know why it just does. So as we're getting people to understand about the. And understand that it's a positive and understand that it's not a disorder.

It's nothing to be ashamed of. Perhaps if we label it something, put a different candy wrapper on it, it'll be better in the long term, so that people call it at least investigate and learn about it and understand it. And I, I think that's the important thing. 

Sarah: Yeah. I agree with you. It's like. Yeah.

It's like starting off with the wrong foot already when you were saying, you know, because it would be helpful for us to maybe deal better with boundaries. If we can say we are this and that, you know, we are highly sensitive, but the minute you say highly sensitive people. Oh, okay. [00:31:00] Go deal with it. So having a term that is kind of neutral, I think would be more helpful and it wouldn't take so much courage to actually say it like, you know, introvert it's, it's almost.

It had in the beginning, it had a little bit of a bad connotation to it, but now it's more widely accepted. So, so maybe it just highly sensitive, also needs to go through some kind of transformation in order to be more widely accepted and not with so much, 

William: it was a speaker. Cause I know this is your area's marketing it's sometimes the terminology makes a difference.

Right? It's. You just sometimes have you wind up with a turn, that's just, isn't going to fly it even though, you know, you don't mean one thing or the other with it. It's how is it perceived by the world? If the world says, you know, we're not going to embrace this and you're really, you're fighting a hill battle here.

And I think [00:32:00] sometimes just a little pivot and a little shift, which is what I think is happening here. More people open up to it. 

Sarah: It's funny that, you know, I went through this with gentle to humane and now we're having to do the same thing with highly sensitive. Yeah. It is. It is really marketing the term.

Right. And, and, and I think. It will be only beneficial to all the highly sensitive people to have a term where they don't feel like they have to apologize. It's almost like you have to apologize for being that. Yeah, 

William: exactly. Here's the funny thing about it though, is it it's took me 10 years to get to the point where I could accept sensitive and not be ashamed to talk about.

When I was writing the book, I had to say something about what are you writing a book about? And then it's like, there's this blank to hit? My face is like, how do I describe this? So I just started. Saying, it's a book about high sensitivity and men [00:33:00] and, and you could see the look on their face. And then I would immediately go in and explain and get a foothold with them before.

At some point almost everybody male and female would say, you know what? I know somebody like that, I have a cousin like that, or I have a, a brother like that, or I have a parent like that, or one of my kids. It becomes relatable that. And once you get them past that term. So I'm okay with whatever they, the direction is with, wants to change the name.

That's fine. I'm okay. If it steaks sticks around for a number of years, I got used to it. Now I'm 

Sarah: afraid we've done the work. Yeah. It's all about, you know, doing the work and accepting it. I think that's, that's why. Yeah. We're, we're having this conversation under the P of personal power because. Once you own it and you do the work, then, then it becomes your power.

It becomes your superpower. Like at this [00:34:00] workshop I just went up to the host and I said, I'm not going to be participating in the evening workshops. It's too much for me. And she said, oh, I really applaud you for being brave to show up and say that. And so it, it felt like. Being perceived in a good way.

Even though it did take me some courage to go up to her and be the only one who didn't want it, or we've 

William: got a great example. That was a great example of. Setting up boundaries and standing up for yourself. That's what I think more highly sensitive people need to be okay with doing that kind of. Yeah.

Sarah: And the difficult part, I think is that you need to learn to say no to the things that you want to do. It's easy to say no to the things we don't want to do, but it's harder to say no to the things that you actually would like to do. You know, I, I know I was missing out on some of the events in the evening, [00:35:00] but I need to do prioritize self care before that.

So. 

William: Absolutely. Yeah. And that is so key. That's so key to be able to do that. Tell 

Sarah: us more about your book before we wrap up here. 

William: The last, the first book confession of a sensitive man, it came out about a year or two ago was really my experiences of growing up as a highly sensitive man. Some anecdotes from my life and that kind of thing.

And it was trying, I was trying to write a relatable book for men to read who could say, look, you know we may not have had exactly same experiences, but I can relate to what, what you went through. The second book, the one that just recently came out is more of a kind of a trail guy is what I like to call it.

I use a lot of metaphors for trails and hiking because I like doing it. But it's kind of a trail guide. On being a sensitive man, dealing with some of the things that challenges that we deal with, whether it's workplace or whether it's relationships or whether it's environment having to sort of stand up for yourself, setting those [00:36:00] boundaries and things like that.

And so ideas on brain training, how to keep, teach your mind to calm down and things you can do to make your brain more resilient. So it's kind of a tool kit of things that I had discovered throughout the course of my life. The funny thing about my life is that I had been sampled so many different things and I never understood the time why I was doing that.

Just all kinds of techniques and books and theories and so forth and so on. And it turns out that it was useful in helping them construct this book. So that's, even though you're doing stuff that you don't really get half the time, sometimes it'll come and play later on in life. 

Sarah: Yeah. It's that part? The connecting dots, 

William: right?

Exactly. That finally the dots make sense, right? Yeah. Yeah, that's true. But anyway, that's kind of what the book is about. And it's also about my hopes of where we go from here. And what's 

Sarah: the title of the second one it's 

William: called on being a sensitive man. And so it's about, you know, now that [00:37:00] we've established that we're sensitive men, how do we, how do we live with it?

How do we deal with it and how do we go forward? We are 

Sarah: so good. This has been absolutely fantastic. I could go on and on tell you all about my specific examples, but yeah, we need to wrap up. So I really, really appreciate your time here. I always have one last question and that is what are you grateful for today or this week?

William: Well, I, you know what, one of the things, I guess I'm grateful for is all the wonderful people that I've met and on this journey so far, and every week, there's always somebody new that gets sort of added to the list that shared experiences is validating. Especially if you're stepping out on a limb and you're saying, you know, talking about things that are sometimes difficult to deal with.

Having a network of great people. That are [00:38:00] somehow connected to you. That's that's, I'm extremely grateful for that. 

Sarah: Wonderful. Yeah. Yeah. Me too. Like the podcast for this is one of the best things I've ever done for my business as an introvert and HSP to just, you know, di. Into it and go really deep.

And then at night, allow myself to process and really digest information as well. I think as a consequence of, of realizing that deep processing, I, I also just slowed down the podcasting and only release an episode every two weeks. Again, it's about boundaries and really feeling into it. And. You know what it's actually too much for me.

Do you kind of just, you know, like a factory split of these podcasts, I need to sit with the humans for a bit and really, yeah. Go 

William: deeper. We are, you, you're a real natural, I I've enjoyed this [00:39:00] conversation. I enjoyed speaking with you. So thanks for having me, you know? 

Sarah: Yeah. Thank you so much for coming on and we'll speak again.

Take care.