The Humane Marketing Show. A podcast for a generation of marketers who care.

Today's episode features a special guest, Mark Schaefer, a globally-recognized keynote speaker, futurist, business consultant, and author. Mark and Sarah delve into the significance of community in today's world and its role in humane marketing. They explore the difference between a community and an audience, the importance of letting go of control as a community builder, the struggles of building a community, and the potential synergy between AI and human communities. They also discuss effective strategies for attracting new members, common mistakes made by community builders and how AI fits into the picture of community.

As entrepreneurs, understanding the essence of community building and the benefits it offers can help us create meaningful connections and grow our businesses sustainably.

He studied under Peter Drucker for three years and has advanced degrees in marketing and organizational development. Mark holds seven patents and is a faculty member of the graduate studies program at Rutgers University. His blog and podcast -- The Marketing Companion -- are at the top of the charts in the marketing field. Customized for every audience, Mark's inspiring and memorable programs specialize in marketing and strategies for digital marketing, social media, and personal branding. His clients range from successful start-ups to global brands such as Adidas, Johnson & Johnson, Dell, Pfizer, The U.S. Air Force, and the UK Government. Mark is the bestselling author of 10 path-finding books including the first book ever written on influence marketing. Mark's books are used as textbooks at more than 50 universities, have been translated into 15 languages, and can be found in more than 750 libraries worldwide.

In this episode, Mark and I discuss:

• Why community is more important now then ever before
• The difference between a community and an audience
• The role of the ego for community builders
• The struggles of building a community
• AI and human communities: can they work together?
• And much more

[00:00:00] Sarah: Hello, humane marketers. Welcome back to the Humane Marketing Podcast, the place to be for the generation of marketers that cares. This is a show where we talk about running your business in a way that feels good to you, is aligned with your values, and also resonates with today's conscious customers because it's humane, ethical, and non-pushy.

[00:00:23] I'm Sarah z Croce, your hippie turn business coach for quietly rebellious entrepreneurs and marketing impact pioneer. Mama Bear of the Humane Marketing Circle and renegade author of marketing like we're human and selling like we're human. If after listening to the show for a while, you're ready to move on to the next level and start implementing and would welcome a community of like-minded, quietly rebellious entrepreneurs who discuss with transparency what.

[00:00:52] Works and what doesn't work in business, then we'd love to welcome you in our humane marketing circle. If you're picturing your [00:01:00] typical Facebook group, let me paint a new picture for you. This is a closed community of like-minded entrepreneurs from all over the world who come together once per month in a Zoom circle workshop to hold each other accountable and build their business in a.

[00:01:15] Sustainable way we share with transparency and vulnerability, what works for us and what doesn't work, so that you can figure out what works for you instead of keep throwing spaghetti on the wall and seeing what sticks. Find out more at humane.marketing/circle, and if you prefer one-on-one support from me.

[00:01:37] My humane business coaching could be just what you need, whether it's for your marketing, sales, general business building, or help with your big. Idea like writing a book. I'd love to share my brain and my heart with you together with my almost 15 years business experience and help you grow a sustainable business that is joyful and sustainable.

[00:01:58] If you love this podcast, [00:02:00] wait until I show you my mama bear qualities as my one-on-one client can find out more at humane.marketing/coaching. And finally, if you are a Marketing Impact pioneer and would like to bring Humane Marketing to your organization, have a look at my offers and workshops on my [email protected].

[00:02:30] Hello friends. Welcome back. We arrived once again at the seventh P of the Humane Marketing Mandala. Today's conversation fits under the P of. Partnership. If you are a regular here, you know that I'm organizing the conversations around the seven Ps of the Humane Marketing Mandala. And if this is your first time here, you probably don't know what I'm talking about, but you can download your one page marketing plan that comes with [00:03:00] the seven Ps of Humane [email protected] slash one page.

[00:03:06] The number one and the word page, and this truly is a completely different version of the seven Ps of marketing that starts with yourself. It comes with seven email prompts to really help you reflect on these different Ps. And so, like I said, today's. Conversation fits under the seventh p the P of partnership, and clearly that's a new P that I added.

[00:03:32] It didn't exist in the original sixties version of the seven Ps of marketing. In today's episode, I'm joined by my colleague and fellow marketer, mark Schaffer. Mark is a returning guest as I've spoken to him twice before, since we're fellow introverts. And so he came once to speak on my. Previous podcasts, the one, two podcasts before.

[00:03:58] So not the [00:04:00] gentle marketing podcasts, but the one before that, and where I was mainly talking to introverts. I'll dig out the episode. Link so you can go listen to that. So mark spoke to me about being an introvert in business and marketing, and then I had him come back also to talk about his book Marketing Rebellion which actually came out just before.

[00:04:22] Weeks before marketing like we're human, which was then called the Gentle Marketing Revolution. So clearly we're kindred spirits, not just personality wise, but also otherwise how we think. Again, we didn't talk about this, but he came out with Marketing Rebellion and for me it was marketing Revolution.

[00:04:45] So I'll tell you a bit more about Mark in just a moment, but. Since today's topic is all about community, I want to take a moment to tell you about our community, the Humane Marketing Circle, and what we've been up to in the last [00:05:00] few weeks and months. So the Humane Marketing Circle is a growing community for quietly rebellious entrepreneurs.

[00:05:08] Here's the theme again, with the rebellion or the revolution. So we're a community for quietly rebellious entrepreneurs who are ready for something different, something fresh and new, a new way of marketing, and a new way of business building, and also a new way of being in community. We now have. Four monthly gatherings, two meetups in which we discuss marketing, one 90 minute business or marketing related workshop with an expert or someone from the community.

[00:05:40] So I always try to find experts within the community because we're all experts. And then every now and then if I don't find someone in the community, I'll go and look outside. We're also starting this month with an. Extra call we, that we call net weaving, so it's not networking, but [00:06:00] net weaving which we focus on, in which we focus on forming friendships between members that then lead to new business op.

[00:06:08] Opportunities, collaborations, referrals, et cetera. But the main focus is to be human in these net weaving calls. Really just let go of the mask and show up as humans in our comfy clothes and on our couches and sofas, and just build friendships that then eventually lead to new business opportunities.

[00:06:31] Here's how our community meetups work. So those are the two regular monthly meetings that we have. One of them I lead and one of them is led by one of our three community ambassadors. In the first half of the call, members bring their questions and we have a conversation about what. It works for us in marketing.

[00:06:54] For example, one of the last calls we talked about AI and we share [00:07:00] tools and discussed benefits, dangers, overall ethical questions. We also, just on the last call, we talked about the gentle sales path and what members are doing in terms of bringing new people into their gentle sales paths. And so we take turns, we raise our hands and take turns and everybody.

[00:07:19] Is really a leader in the, in their chair, and they get to learn from others and also share. And in the second half of the call, we go into breakout rooms and we have a more intimate conversation with other heart-centered entrepreneurs, which is super valuable because we don't often get this, you know, brainstorming and kind of feedback from other entrepreneurs.

[00:07:46] And for example, this month our topic is the P of people. So I always bring a question for the breakout rooms and We discussed, for example a limiting belief that holds our people back. So [00:08:00] what's a limiting belief that holds our clients back? And then we took turns in sharing that in the small breakout room.

[00:08:07] So that's the format. Of our meetups. Then we've also successfully transitioned to our new community platform on Kajabi, and I have to say I'm super pleased with it. It's such a lot of fun. We had our first live call directly. In our live room, in the community, so not on Zoom but directly within the Cajabi community, which makes it really safe and it feels like you're really unique to us.

[00:08:37] So rather than being on Zoom, which we kind of all use, but it, it has become this tool where. We somehow we show up in our business mindset where if we're all of a sudden in our own platform and we have a call, and it just really felt like, oh, this is, this is our [00:09:00] home. We're hanging out in our home.

[00:09:01] And that's what members also mentioned. There's still a few bugs that were working out, but All in all, we love this new community platform on Kajabi, and we're just truly embracing it. And then, as I said, Eddie, our community facilitator will lead his first NetWeaving call really a, a fun call to foster friendships between members that then lead to business opportunities.

[00:09:27] I'm super excited to have him on board. It's interesting because Mark, you'll hear him say in. In our podcast episode, you'll hear him say that it's good to hire the youngest member you can find, or the, the youngest person you can find. And so that's exactly what I did with Eddie. He's a millennial probably even.

[00:09:48] Younger than millennial. Millennials are now kind of like, oh, they're, you know, they aged as well. So he's, he's 27 and he just brings such a new perspective, such a [00:10:00] different way of being in community, which yeah, which we all love. So it's been great. So I created a, a special may coupon code for you if you'd like to join us now and save 15% on your monthly membership rate for as long as you stay.

[00:10:16] So if you feel like now's the time, you can use the coupon code may gift. So, m. A Y G I F T on the checkout page by going to humane.marketing/circle. And this code is valid until May 31st, 2023. So with that, let's go back to our conversation with Mark. About communities. But first, let me tell you a bit about Mark.

[00:10:46] So Mark Schaefer is a globally recognized keynote speaker, futurist, business consultant, and author. His clients range from successful startups to global brands such as Adidas, Johnson and Johnson, [00:11:00] Dell, Pfizer, the US Air Force, and the UK government. Mark is the bestselling author of 10 pathfinding books, including the first book ever written on influence marketing.

[00:11:11] Mark's books are used as textbooks at more than 50 universities have been translated into 15 languages and can be found in more than 250 libraries worldwide. In today's episode we talked about why community is more important now than ever before. The difference between a community and an audience.

[00:11:34] The role of the ego for community builders, the struggles of building a community, how hard it is really to get people together and host the space. And finally we also talk about AI and the role of AI in human communities and how they can work together, cuz that's actually the third part of Mark's new book, belonging to the Brand.[00:12:00]

[00:12:00] Let's dive in with Mark.

[00:12:34] Court. Good to see you, mark. I, I just said, let's just hit record because we're already sharing all, all this, this good stuff. So we are, we are excited to have you back on the show here. Really looking forward to talking to you about community. Your latest book has a lot of bookmarks already.

[00:12:57] Definitely excited. Belonging to the [00:13:00] brand by community is the last great marketing strategy. So let's dive right into it. Most people on, on my show already know who you are. So I'm not gonna go into tell me who Mark Schaffer is and all of that stuff. Why is community so essential and why now?

[00:13:18] Mark: I think that's, that's the question is, is, is why now?

[00:13:22] Because community has, has always been essential. There's a great quote in the book. From a, there's a great marketer. He was with Coca-Cola, he was with Airbnb, Jonathan Milton Hall, and Jonathan said, look, when our ancestors were gathering around the fire, it, it wa it, it was to create this sense of belonging.

[00:13:44] We've always longed to belong a lot of the social structures in our world today. You know, have, have just collapsed, especially here in America. A lot of the ways we used to gather and, and find that community are gone. A lot of that [00:14:00] was made a lot worse during the pandemic. Now I wanna go back a step and assure people this isn't like a touchy-feely, fluffy book about, you know, You know why we should all be in a community.

[00:14:14] This is a business book with, I think, a very strong business case of why businesses should view community as part of their marketing strategy. Community isn't new from the first days of the internet. Businesses tried to create communities. Most of them failed because they were set out to like sell more stuff.

[00:14:39] People don't really want to gather to buy more stuff, so they didn't really work. Most of the communities today, about 70% of the communities that actually work today for businesses are focused on transactions, customer self-service, which is fine, but the point of my book is that. [00:15:00] The, the purpose of branding is to create this emotional connection with our customers.

[00:15:05] A feeling, a meaning that keeps them connected to us. And there's no more powerful way to do that than community. And I show a lot of data. I have a lot of case studies in the book that kind of prove this while we're focused on. You know, customer self-service, which is what most communities look at, look at today.

[00:15:28] We're missing bigger opportunities like collaborate, collaboration, co-creation, customer advocacy, sharing information quickly. These are all massive benefits that are going away in other marketing channels. So number one. This is a business book about marketing that works. But I also point out this is marketing that heals, which is a unique aspect of this idea.

[00:15:57] Mm-hmm. Because as we talked about, we've got [00:16:00] this mental health crisis going. Everywhere in the world. I don't know what it's like for you in Switzerland, but here it's in the news every day, especially with our young people today. And so we're longing to belong. We need to belong. And if businesses would look at really effective communities from the brand marketing lens, it not only works, but it can actually have a very positive impact on our customers and even the world.

[00:16:31] Yeah.

[00:16:32] Sarah: And it's so interesting because in our pre-recording talk, we, we discussed, You know, I, I mentioned that I was gonna actually go all in and create a live event, and, and I mentioned that I have a place in Sicily, and you were like, oh, I like Sicily. And it reminded me of one of the stories in your book, and I think it's in the beginning of the book, where you talk about this store, this shop that I think it was actually led by a Sicilian, or [00:17:00] originally Sicilians, right?

[00:17:02] Yeah. Mm-hmm. That, and they still have this. Shop. Yeah. So tell us the story about, because it it, and I tell you what I told my husband and, and really that's still the feeling that we get in Sicily. Like it really is still like that. Yeah. So tell us that story. Well, we don't

[00:17:19] Mark: have that. It's, we don't have that feeling in a, in America or most places, so, yeah.

[00:17:23] So. You know, when when I was a little boy, it was always a special occasion when my grandfather brought something back from, he, he would call it the Italian store. And so I, I got to go back. This store has still been there since 1903. Three brothers. Came to Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, and they started making pasta, handmade pasta, and now they, it's still in the same family.

[00:17:53] Mm-hmm. And the family members make a point to be there in the store, you know, interacting with [00:18:00] customers. Mm-hmm. If you, if there's any, they, they also do like a lot of Shipping and stuff of their specialty products. And if there's ever a problem, I mean, one of, one of those family members is paying attention to it.

[00:18:12] You know themselves, well, I, I, I was away from this store for like 40 years, came back, visited Pittsburgh and I, I went to this, this area. Which used to be like a, a, just like a warehouse area, you know, really kind of busy and, you know, dirty Now it's a, it's a big tourist area. Mm-hmm. And the store is still there.

[00:18:34] Same old wooden floors. This, all the signs are handwritten all over the stores and, And you know, I walk in and they've got this huge class case with 400 different kinds of cheese, just magnificent and smoked sausages and all these things that they're bringing in from Italy and, and you know, most, mostly Italy, but some other parts of the world.

[00:18:58] And I go there and [00:19:00] the people at the counter. Know the customers and they're asking about their, their family and their husbands. And, and one lady was there and her husband had had a health problem and the lady said, well, we just got his favorite kind of cheese. Let me wrap that up. Take it home to him, you know, that maybe this will make him feel better.

[00:19:20] And then the lady looked over to the corner and there's some, some of her friends sitting there, she went over to talk to them. And I just felt so sad. Because I've never experienced this. Hmm. And I'm just one generational away, right from this is how all business was done. And I just longed to, to, to walk in a place where people would know me and connect with me and to me.

[00:19:49] Shopping is just anxiety. I, I, I don't even, I don't want to go anyplace. Right. You know, it's just a process for me of being overwhelmed and disappointed. So I'm, you know, that's

[00:19:59] Sarah: [00:20:00] the introvert in us, right? We're

[00:20:01] Mark: like, no, thanks. Yeah. You and I, you and I had a special show on that a few years ago. Yeah. Right.

[00:20:06] Yeah. Yeah. After I shop, I just wanna go home and crawl under a blanket. Oh yeah. So so, so it, it's this idea of. We've always had this inside of us. This it's, it's in our D n A, it's this tribal sort of thing is on a deep psychological and sociological level. We have got to belong. And Sarah, this was one of the elements in my life that.

[00:20:35] Provoked me that drove me to write this book. A few years ago, there was a headline in the New York Times that said The Loneliest Generation. Mm-hmm. And was referring to Gen Z. And it just, it just broke my heart how our children and these teenagers, they're just suffering. Suffering. They're so isolated and lonely and depressed.

[00:20:59] And[00:21:00] as I said, look You know, this is a business book, but it's also a way I think we can at least. Be aware of these issues in our world and think about how this can have a positive impact on, on, you know, everybody today, not just young people. Young people. They're finding their own communities. I talk about this at the end of the book.

[00:21:22] You know, they're, they're, they're moving into their own communities and to the extent that. Companies, and not just companies. Why I say companies. It could be a nonprofit, it could be a university, you know, it could be, you know, whatever. A, a un an insurance company, a symphony, whatever, a nonprofit the, I think the com, the, the organizations that are the most human, which I know is something close to your heart.

[00:21:48] The companies and the organizations that are the most belonging. How, how would it look like in your. Company in your culture, in your marketing, if you thought we're gonna be [00:22:00] the most belonging company, it, it, it, it sort of, you know, presents an interesting idea of how you might approach marketing in a, in a different way.

[00:22:11] Yeah,

[00:22:11] Sarah: absolutely. So, and, and that story about this Italian shab, it's not just a beautiful story, but it's a, an excellent business case. Yeah. Cause. You know, how hard is it for a small shop like that to survive and them still existing after 40 years? Well, It has to have to do

[00:22:30] Mark: something. Community. It's, it's been well, they've been there since 1903.

[00:22:36] Oh, yeah. Yeah. Not just, I was Generat four. Yeah. It had been 40 years since I had been there. Right. Yeah. But it's it's the same store. Yeah. They, they, yeah. It's, it's bigger now, but yeah. It's the same, it's the same store.

[00:22:50] Sarah: Yeah. No, absolutely. I, I have a feeling like reading the book and I so resonate with this.

[00:22:58] Because just like [00:23:00] anything in marketing marketer, marketers have a tendency to grab the latest Conta concept. So let's just say, okay, mark Schaffer, yay. He writes about communities, right? Yeah. And six months later, that's the latest marketing thing, right? It's like, just like we did with authenticity, just like we did with vulnerability, marketers are really good at jumping on these words and then abusing the crap out of them.

[00:23:30] Yeah. And so what I really liked about your book, and you mentioned it several times, is this concept of letting go of control that. You cannot control a community growth. You cannot Yeah. You know, somehow market or Yeah. Kind of manipulate a community. Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah, talk to us about that.

[00:23:56] Mark: Well, that's probably something you've learned [00:24:00] firsthand in your community, but, you know, give you a story that so when I started my community, I have a community On Discord, which I didn't really wanna be on Discord, but my community said, we wanna be on Discord.

[00:24:12] So I'm giving up control. So here we are in Discord, thought, well, this is a community. This is a community that, you know, I kind of brought these people together and they're interested in the future of marketing. So they're probably interested in things I'm talking about, like personal branding and being a professional speaker and writing books.

[00:24:34] So I created. My own little chat rooms thinking, oh, this is where we're gonna have interesting dialogue about these subjects. Now those rooms are the emptiest rooms on the whole site because they, they didn't wanna go there. They took it in completely different direction. They said, look, we wanna talk about the metaverse, we wanna talk about web three.

[00:24:58] We wanna talk about chat, [00:25:00] G P T and artificial intelligence, and. They were right. We need to be talking about those things, right? They've taken me a whole new direction. It's, but that community has become my university. I'm learning from them. Almost every blog, post, podcast or speech I give the, a lot of the information and stories are coming out of that community, right?

[00:25:24] So they're keeping me relevant because they're spread out all over the world. You know, teaching me what they're seeing is, is, is going on out there.

[00:25:33] Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. So, so that, that letting go of the control and, and almost like letting the community taking over that is Yeah. That is so big and it's, it's so, I think against what a lot of us business owners or marketers have learned where we, and I, and I also.

[00:25:54] Remember you or mentioning that a community is definitely not an audience, [00:26:00] right? That distinction is so essential and yet, We see probably 90% of the people using the words interchangeably. They call a community, they, they say they have a community where they actually just have a free Facebook group where they sell their

[00:26:16] Mark: programs.

[00:26:17] Yeah. And I think the distinction is important because that's where the real power is. Right? You know, when people have an audience, And they say, this is my community. I say, well, the do do the people in the AU in your audience, do they know each other? Do they connect to each other? And the answer is no, cuz they're an audience.

[00:26:37] Now I'm not. I mean, an audience is really important. I mean, I have an audience, right? And those are the people who buy things from me. So, I mean, audience is great, but. When people know each other and they build relationships, connections, and they collaborate and they do things together in new ways, that goodwill and [00:27:00] that emotion transfers to the brand.

[00:27:04] This is one of the profound lessons I think in the book. I mean, I did a deep dig, deep dive on a lot of the psychology of community, the sociology of community, and almost suggests that, and this is hence at your point, that leadership in a community is like upside down compared to traditional marketing.

[00:27:27] Yeah. You know leadership. And so instead of building the connection between the brand, And our audience. It's about building the connection between the audience members to create this community, because if you do that, it creates this layer of emotional switching costs. Mm-hmm. Like, these are my friends, this is my community.

[00:27:49] I can never leave this brand cuz I never wanna leave this community. Right. So it, it, it, there's a lot of. Non-intuitive things about [00:28:00] community success That, that I'm, I'm learning firsthand. Yeah.

[00:28:03] Sarah: And, and that's where I think you brought in the live event. And that's when I'm like, I. I'm a hundred percent convinced because I've been, you know, I had my community probably two, three years now, and I, what I've been learning is that there's a lot of unlearning first of all for the leader of the community, but then also for members of the community because I feel like as marketers we have kind of brainwashed.

[00:28:34] Clients and customers into these membership site type things where people just come to consume content rather than to actually show up and Yeah. You know, express themselves and say, this is what works for me, what works for you, and collaborating, and so I've been kind of like, Yeah. Empower, giving power back to the people and saying, no, I [00:29:00] want you to show

[00:29:01] Mark: up.

[00:29:01] Yeah, that's a, that's, that's a really, really good point. You know, I, I had this conversation with a friend of mine last week. He has, has a community, but it's really an audience. Because it's, it's the, you know, he's, he's like creating content and it's premium content that you only get if you're in this community.

[00:29:24] Right. And it, it, there's not really a lot of focus. I mean, that's a

[00:29:28] Sarah: membership site. Yeah, it is. I think that type, yeah, that those three words, they're kind of like Yeah. Creating, yeah.

[00:29:35] Mark: It's a membership site. Mm-hmm. You know, in my community. It is, it's free, it's open it, you know, it's, it's, it's like, you know, everybody is welcome to, to come in and give it a try.

[00:29:47] You know, I, I do have like a, like a v i p section where it's like a small amount of money every year. And then, you know, we get, we have meetings with like legendary, legendary marketing people [00:30:00] and And that's a lot of fun. But I mean, at least 90% of the community is just there. It's free and we're just helping each other and it's very generous and very kind.

[00:30:10] And you know, I made so many new friends and no many new connections. And of course, as I said, it's just become my number one place to, to learn about what's, what's new. I mean, I was really early. In the in the AI generated content around art, like mid journey and I mean, it was like people in my community said, have you seen this?

[00:30:35] Get a membership, try this thing. And it was just like, oh my gosh. I mean this, like my, my jaw just dropped on the table. It was so unbelievable. And that, you know, I was early on chat G p t again because my community's like pulling me into these things, right? And, and, and I think that's a big part of being relevant today, not necessarily being an expert.

[00:30:58] In everything, [00:31:00] but knowing enough to at least ask the right questions about everything. Just, you know, dabbling in the metaverse and web three and all these new things, and that the community's helping me remain relevant. What, what a gift is that? Now think about what that means to a big brand. Yeah. Is, is, is, you know Sarah, I saw this amazing quote.

[00:31:21] Oh, I, I, I got hung on this. It was probably four years ago now. There's a quote by the C m O of Pepsi and he said the days of the big brand are over the big brand campaign. Campfires. Bonfires are over. And today it's about. Being relevant in cultural moments. And I thought that is fascinating, but what does that really mean?

[00:31:54] How does that show up? And if you watch what some of these brands are doing now, they like, if there's like a [00:32:00] big award show like the Grammys or the Emmys or the Oscars and or, or there's like big festivals. One of the things Pepsi did for example, was there was some big like cultural festival. In, in New York and they created a soft drink, especially for this festival.

[00:32:22] It tasted like zindel or something, right? I mean, I can't imagine how bizarre that would be, but it was a in a pink can. But you know, if, if you play this out, how can you be? What would be the platform to be relevant in these cultural moments? What would be more powerful than a community that's taking you into these moments?

[00:32:45] Mm-hmm. Exposing you to these moments. Yeah. And, and I, I, so I think big company, small company solopreneur it, it, it, it's something that must be considered really for any kind of business right now. [00:33:00] Yeah,

[00:33:00] Sarah: I absolutely agree. And, and, and I think one y you did say, okay, this is a business book, but business is so human today to come back to my favorite topic and, and yeah.

[00:33:12] And so those are those humanizing moments, right? It's like, we're not, and that's why the. Let me build a community so that I can sell more stuff. Doesn't work, because that's not why humans gather. They don't, right. They don't come into a community to buy more. And so I think brands need to be super careful with that, you know, thing they, they can go completely wrong if they start selling into the community.

[00:33:41] Mark: Yeah. That, that's the number one. Right. Reason why communities. Fail Yeah. Is because they say, okay, well, we'll start a community, but you know, this is gonna help us meet our, our quarterly sales numbers. And, you know, a company has to do that. I've, I've been in that world for a long time, but that's, that's gonna [00:34:00] drive your community away.

[00:34:01] And it, you know, I, I think one of the gifts of this book, I hope people see this as a gift, is in chapter 10, I look at measurement. In an entirely new way. I mean, community and measurement. This has been just a, a thorn in the side of communities forever and. I give a case study in the book about these big sports drink brands, Gatorade versus Powerade, and I show the power of brand marketing where you sponsor events and you're, you know, you get connected to cultural moments and you know, maybe you sponsor the World Cup.

[00:34:44] Well, okay, so if you sponsor the World Cup and your brand is everywhere. Does that sell more products? Yes. Can we measure that? No, [00:35:00] probably not. So I make this distinction between brand marketing and direct marketing. And what I'm showing is that almost every community is trying to manage it and measure it like direct marketing.

[00:35:16] But if you do that, you, you miss the whole thing about trust. And loyalty and emotion and love and co-creation, collaboration and advocacy, you're missing the main event. Mm-hmm. And so you, if, if, if the community reports to the marketing department, which understands what brand marketing is, we kind of take that pressure off and, and we look at other measures.

[00:35:43] That may not necessarily be directly tied to the bottom line, but we know it's a leading indicator of, of the bottom line. One of the biggest communities in the whole world is Sephora. Now Sephora is a cosmetics company. Do you have [00:36:00] Sephora over there? And We do. Yeah. They're, they're, they're based in Europe, I think.

[00:36:03] Yeah. And they're French, right? I think maybe French. Yeah. They've got brick and mortar stores. In, in many, many countries, every major city in America has just a forest store, but 80% of their sales come from their online community. And their number one measure in their community is engagement because they see engagement as the leading indicator to to sales.

[00:36:34] Mm-hmm. So it's, again, this goes back to what we were talking about earlier. It's like, This turns the traditional marketing mindset kind of upside down. But this, I think this is where the world needs to go. I think 20 years from now, maybe 30 years from now, we're, we're gonna, the, the young people leading businesses today are already moving this direction.

[00:36:59] They're [00:37:00] already moving to community. 85% of startups today are leading with community as they're. Main marketing idea. 30 years from now, the world's gonna look back at the period we're in now. And we're gonna say, remember those days we used to spam people. We used to interrupt people, intercept people. We used to bother them.

[00:37:22] We used to fill their mailboxes with all this direct mail that wasn't even relevant to them anymore. What were we thinking? Okay. I'm so happy we read Mark's book 30 years ago.

[00:37:36] Sarah: No, I, I have to say, like, I, I really feel like you pivoted or you kind of. Created this new path with Marketing Rebellion already.

[00:37:46] Yes, exactly. Right. And now this is like, you know, for whoever is ready for the next. Paradigm, basically. I'm, I'm glad you picked up. I'm so glad to have you kind of, you know, forged this [00:38:00] path for people like myself, because that is the, I wanna cry, like, this is the biggest pushback I always got is like, you can't measure it.

[00:38:08] You can't measure humane marketing. Yeah. And I felt like saying, so what? You know? Yeah. Right. This is the only way we gotta go. Yeah. And, and so now to say, well then if you don't listen to me, listen to Mark

[00:38:21] Mark: Schaffer. Right? Yeah. I mean, it is, it is. And look, I'm like, I'm a measurement junkie. You know, I've, a lot of people don't know this about me, but I actually have the, the equivalent of a master's degree in statistics.

[00:38:33] So, I mean, I'm all about the numbers. But you know, there was a very powerful quote from Marketing Rebellion that I actually repeated in, in the new book, and it's this idea. That you can either keep, keep pace with the, with the pulse of our culture, or you can measure, you probably can't do both. I mean, I, I, I, I think Sarah, there, there's [00:39:00] no business leader.

[00:39:01] Anywhere right now that can't be feeling a little overwhelmed by the by the amount and velocity of change. Mm-hmm. And so, you know, you, you've got to, to, you've gotta make that leap at some point to say, We've gotta go to market a different way. We can't keep holding. It's, it's a sickness. It literally is a sickness that we're holding on to this scaffolding of the old ways, you know, our, our relationships with ad agencies and producing, you know, glamorous television commercials.

[00:39:35] Cause you know, cuz we can win an award for this and, and, and, and it, it's hard. To change our, our, our, the culture of our company to start embracing these new things. I think every company today should be taking at least 10% of their marketing budget and experimenting maybe on things you can't measure.

[00:39:58] You have no, have no hope of [00:40:00] measuring to move more toward this human-centered. View of, of marketing. Because just because you can't measure it doesn't mean you shouldn't do it. I mean, there's a lot of things we can't measure. We can't measure, you know, wind, we can't, me, well, we can measure, we can't measure love, right?

[00:40:19] We can't measure love. We can't measure. How good we feel on a, on a sunny day. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't go to the beach, doesn't mean we shouldn't fall in love. We need to take advantage of those things. And there are many things in marketing today, you know, we are in the early days, in the early stages, and especially young people today have entirely different expectations and of, of what they want from businesses and what they want from marketing.

[00:40:47] And we've gotta start moving that way now. Gen Z. They're not babies. We just had the first member of Gen Z become elected to the United States Congress. Mm-hmm. [00:41:00] They're consumers, right? In the next five years, they're gonna be our leaders, right? And our procurement managers. So, and, and, you know, great entrepreneurs.

[00:41:10] So, I mean, we need, we need to wake up. We really do. Yeah. We need to get rid of this, these sick, these sick, antiquated practices and, and wake up to, to, to deliver. You know, we're gonna stop doing things that people hate. Just stop it and then double down. How do you feel?

[00:41:29] Sarah: Yeah. How, how do you feel about, so these, you know, the marketers that are out there now in, in, let's say in bigger companies, but even entrepreneurs, like, besides you, you reading your book, how are they, how are we gonna get them up to speed with these skills?

[00:41:48] Because unfortunately, Unless they have the luck to have you at their, at a lecture in their university, they're still being taught marketing from the sixties. Yeah. [00:42:00] It's, it's such a big mismatch. And, and I see that in, in the online marketing sphere as well. We're still being marketed to like 20 years ago with all the shaming and manipulating and

[00:42:12] Mark: on the lot.

[00:42:13] Yeah. Well, you know, it's interesting, Sarah, that a lot of the problem right now is actually even in the universities. I mean, the universities many universities are so far behind. Mm-hmm. You know, it, it, I, I think I. The slowest moving. Most bureaucratic organizations I've ever worked with are, are universities and these are the institutions sad that we're, that we're counting on to, to keep our, our students relevant.

[00:42:42] And there's many young people coming outta universities that are, you know, connecting to me saying, I'm totally unprepared for the world. All this stuff I learned, nobody's even doing this stuff anymore. Yeah, so there's a lot of problems. There's a lot of issues. But here's the thing that gives me a lot of hope.

[00:42:59] I. [00:43:00] First of all, there is change happening. Absolutely. Sarah. There have been people that have taken my Marketing rebellion book and said, this is the new framework. This is the way we're gonna go forward, not just small companies. There's a Fortune 100 company that, that contacted me and said, this is the way we need to go forward.

[00:43:20] You know, how can you help us do this? So that's number one. Number two. I think the best leaders today, they wanna stay relevant. You know, to, if you are managing a brand, here is your mission. A brand is a never ending journey of relentless. Relevance, relevance, relevance, relevance, relevance to now, to this moment, to this year, to this culture.

[00:43:49] That's it. That's your job. Yeah. And, and to be relevant, you, you, you, you, you've gotta move away from some of these things that people just see are [00:44:00] not relevant anymore. They don't even work anymore, right? So we've got to start reaching out. We've got to start experimenting. And I think what gives me hope is that, look, any, any.

[00:44:12] Great professional today. They know this. They wanna be relevant, they wanna be relevant in their careers, they want their companies to be relevant and, and so I think my message is, is is gonna connect because it has to connect.

[00:44:26] Sarah: Hmm. Yeah. I do feel also always come back to Covid, but I do feel like it has helped with human evolution and of consciousness and people like, you know, never.

[00:44:41] Like before they, they're like, we're done with this spammy marketing stuff. Like the, the kind of, I call it the bullshit The word is escaping me, but, but like the trigger, you know, is likes meter. We know, we can tell that this is all fakes and that that's so, [00:45:00] so I do feel, yeah, there's this gap between consciousness that has risen and some of the, the marketing stuff that is just so outdated.

[00:45:09] But yeah, like you, I totally believe in humanity and, and I be believe that people. Feel it, like you could just feel it that there's this craving for, for belonging and, and so

[00:45:21] Mark: I'm just Yeah. Oh, that, I mean, you talk about measurement that is documented. I mean, it, it, it's, it's just coming at us in every, every day, in every way.

[00:45:32] It's, it's all over the news here in America. And I mean, just like two weeks ago I saw this statistic that was just incredible that. Of the young people aged 18 to 24, 50 1% of them had sought medical treatment for a mental health issue. Hmm. The average for every other generation, including, you know, my generation is 24%.

[00:45:59] [00:46:00] Wow. Yeah. For young people today, it's 51% and the average for every other generation is 24%. There's something really wrong here going on. Mm-hmm. And you know, look, my book is not Pollyannish saying, Hey, start a community and change the world. I'm saying, look, There's a, there's a real marketing urgency to consider new ideas like this.

[00:46:26] And oh, by the way, it's, it's gonna do some, it's gonna do some good for the people in your community.

[00:46:33] Sarah: Yeah. I, I really feel this more so than in other, in, in the other books that, that you come from this place of. Let go of the ego and tap into the love. That's there's some warmth, you know, even though it's a business book, I feel like there's some warmth reading this.

[00:46:51] And then, yeah. And that's also the, the thing that we need. Now it's like, you know, how can you have a community that is Cold and [00:47:00] based on Eagle. Well that's not gonna work. So there definitely has to be yeah, the warmths as well. I wanna tap into also kind of the bridging it to the technology piece to, to wrap up, because it could almost be like a paradox, you know, it's like, wait, wait a minute, okay.

[00:47:18] We have this problem with technology, young people, too much technology, and yet, You are talking about technology and AI and in web three in the last part of the book, so draws this picture, how do they fit together?

[00:47:35] Mark: Well, first of all, thank you for reading all the way to the end of the book.

[00:47:40] Sarah: That was a test, you

[00:47:42] Mark: know?

[00:47:42] And you know, I'll tell you some of the, some of the most interesting. Things I have in the book are at the end and, and I thought, gosh, maybe I should put this up more towards the beginning so people can make sure I make sure they see that well. So there are [00:48:00] two big issues I, I talk about at the end of the book, technological changes and sociological changes.

[00:48:06] They kind of go together that. Are suggesting there are gonna be very new kinds of communities in the future, and businesses need to be waking up. Whether you have a community or you just want to tap into a community, a certain demographic of consumers, you've gotta be aware of what's going on. Number one, on the technology side.

[00:48:31] We hear these mysterious words like Web three and NFTs and Metaverse, and the irony is there isn't really a good definition for any of those things. Maybe NFTs come, come closest, but you know, people have really wild, wide, varying ideas of what the Metaverse is gonna be or what Web three is going to be.

[00:48:52] But when you cut through all the jargon, What you really end up with is new ways for [00:49:00] people to belong and especially young people today, are just surging into these areas. So we've gotta be aware of what's happening, what's going on there, how these communities are being created, and consider if that's one of the ways we need to be relevant.

[00:49:18] On the sociological side, young people today, they want to be. Invisible. They don't wanna be found, they don't wanna be discovered. They don't wanna be criticized and bullied and and marketed to. So today, much of our marketing is dependent on social listening platforms that tap into Twitter and LinkedIn and Facebook.

[00:49:45] Well, guess what? Young people today, they're not there. Mm-hmm. They're not there at all. It's amazing to me. Sometimes I do guest lectures at, you know, universities. Even like people in graduate school today, they're not [00:50:00] on LinkedIn. You know, it's, it's, it's crazy. So where are they? They're on Discord, they're on maybe they're on TikTok.

[00:50:10] They're on you know, communities in the Metaverse, they're on Fortnite, they're on Twitch. Guess what? Social listening platforms aren't there. The, you know, millions and millions of people are having brand conversations in places we can't see, right? So, Just like you mentioned, marketing Rebellion was a bit of a wake up call.

[00:50:34] I think this book, you know, part of it is a solution and part of it is a. You know, knock on the head as well to say the world is changing in rapid and unexpected ways, and we don't have all the answers right now, but be aware of what is going on. And, and like I said, gen Z, they're not babies. They're consumers, right?

[00:50:56] With growing, growing, you know, [00:51:00] economic power. So this, this is not something to put off and we really need to think about this now. Yeah.

[00:51:07] Sarah: Yeah. And, and, and I do also see this theme of letting go of control, right? The, the Gen Z doesn't want control, and so they want this connections of trust with the, with the not Bitcoin.

[00:51:21] The other one. The, the NFTs blockchain. Yeah, the blockchain, you know, kind of like, okay, I can trust this connection because it's decentralized and, and so all of these topics that for us right now, I. They've most markers I would assume kind of sounds like Chinese. And so they have to, really, what you're saying is basically almost, you have to have one person per department stay on top of the new stuff, right?

[00:51:51] It's like, yeah, yeah.

[00:51:52] Mark: Go. Yeah. I, I, I, I think, you know, if you've got that kind of luxury, I mean, Sarah Wilson is someone I feature in my book. [00:52:00] She is former Facebook, former Instagram writes for Harvard Business Review, sort of looking at Gen Z culture and Zen Gen Z marketing strategies and, and she says rather boldly in the book, she said, I think it's time I.

[00:52:16] Just to find the youngest person in your marketing department and say, pay attention to this because I don't understand it.

[00:52:23] Sarah: Yeah. I saw that quote and I was like, lucky me. I have two sons, 16 and 19. They tell

[00:52:29] Mark: me all the insights. Well, yeah. I, I, I, I mentor my, my kids are grown, but I mentor young kids. Yeah.

[00:52:36] And I mean, I'm always asking them, what are you doing? What are you seeing? Exactly. Let me, Let me watch you play Roblox. Why did you do that? Yeah. Yeah. Why did you buy that?

[00:52:47] Sarah: Yeah. And all the ad blockers, just like you said, right? It's like everywhere. Yeah.

[00:52:51] Mark: I wanna, I, I gotta watch my, my kids I mentor play Fortnite cuz I die every time I can't.

[00:52:57] It's like, what's the use? I die [00:53:00] immediately, which makes them laugh, but, you know, so I've gotta watch them. I gotta watch them do it. Yeah.

[00:53:06] Sarah: Yeah. Wonderful. Well, I really appreciated this time with you, mark. I, I'm totally with you. Community is, is the way to go and I think we have a lot to learn from the communities, especially the marketers who think, you know, you just throw up a website and a pay button and then there you go.

[00:53:26] You have your community. I think it's time to step back and come. Yeah. Step back from the ego and come with this humble learner approach to say, okay, what can I learn from this community? Yeah. That's the way I look at it. And it sounds like you do too.

[00:53:42] Mark: Absolutely. Yeah. Well, thank you so much, Sarah. It's always delight.

[00:53:46] Yeah, likewise talking to you. It's nice to find such a, I, I think we're of one mind and one heart when it comes to marketing, so it's for sure good to find. It's good to find an ally out there.

[00:53:58] Sarah: Thank you. Thank you. Do you [00:54:00] mention the names of your books again and your website so people can

[00:54:03] Mark: find Yeah.

[00:54:03] The books we talked about today are marketing Rebellion. We didn't mention known, but you know, we, the book on personal branding I think is extremely relevant today. I think personal branding, when you get down to it can be. It's, it's everything in, in many ways when it comes to our careers and marketing.

[00:54:23] And then my new book is called Belonging to the Brand. My Community is the Last Great Marketing Strategy and you can find my blog, my podcast, my books on my social media [email protected].

[00:54:39] Sarah: Wonderful. I always have one last question. Mark, what are you grateful for today or

[00:54:43] Mark: this week? Right now.

[00:54:46] Well, I'm grateful for so much. I'm grateful for, for my, for my health right now. I've, I've gone through a, a, a week of of of illness here and I'm I'm grateful for we talked a lot about community, but I'm also really grateful [00:55:00] for the, your audience, my audience, the out there that, that supports me in so many ways.

[00:55:05] That's, that's just incredibly humbling just to be interested in my work and support my work. So I'm grateful for, for you and your listeners today. Thank you,

[00:55:15] Sarah: mark. Always a pleasure to hang out.

[00:55:18] Mark: Yeah. Thank you, Sarah.

[00:55:27] Sarah: Whether you are a community member or are thinking about creating your own community, I hope you found this episode with Mark. Really, really helpful. I know I did find out more about Mark and his [email protected] and check out my two favorite books from him, marketing Rebellion. And belonging to the brand.

[00:55:49] You can find them on his website or directly at Amazon. And if you're looking for a community of like-minded humane marketers, then why not join us in the Humane Marketing Circle? [00:56:00] You can find out more at Humane. Dot Marketing slash circle. You find the show notes of this [email protected] slash H 1 64, and on this beautiful page, you'll also find a series of free offers, such as my Saturday newsletter, the Humane Business.

[00:56:19] Manifesto and the free, gentle confidence mini course, as well as my two books, marketing like we're Human and selling like we're human. Thanks so much for listening and being part of a generation of marketers who cares for yourself, your clients, and the planet. We are change makers before we are marketers, so go be the change you want to see in the world.

[00:56:43] Speak soon.[00:57:00]

In this episode of the Humane Marketing podcast, I talk to Meg Casebolt, founder of Love At First Search, about search engine optimization (SEO) and specifically about Cornerstone content. We discuss the basic steps to optimize a website for search, using empathy in keyword research, whether to aim for high traffic or low competition keywords, how to write Cornerstone content, the length and structure of the content, and how fast to expect results. We also touch on the evolution of search with the arrival of AI and so much more.

Meg Casebolt is the founder of Love At First Search and host of the Social Slowdown podcast. Meg loves to help businesses spend less time trying to hack the algorithms and instead creates SEO content that attracts your ideal audience to your website while helping entrepreneurs cut their dependency on social media for their business visibility.

It was never her vision to run an agency, but as her reputation grew, she made the decision to build a team of women that could support these mostly women-owned businesses in a powerful, feminist way - to help them climb the ranks and get their digital voices heard in a crowded marketplace.

Today we're talking about websites, or more specifically about generating traffic to our websites. Meg and I also discuss:

• How SEO is combining the tech with the human need
• Basic steps to get your website optimized for search
• Keyword research - myths and truths
• How we can use empathy in our keyword research
• Whether to write content for the keywords or for our people
• How Meg thinks search will evolve (with the arrival of AI)
• And much more

Ep 163 transcript

[00:00:00] Sarah: Hello, humane marketers. Welcome back to the Humane Marketing Podcast, the place to be for the generation of marketers that cares. This is a show where we talk about running your business in a way that feels good to you, is aligned with your values, and also resonates with today's conscious customers because it's humane, ethical, and non-pushy.

[00:00:23] I'm Sarah z Croce, your hippie turn business coach for quietly rebellious entrepreneurs and marketing impact pioneer. Mama Bear of the Humane Marketing Circle and renegade author of marketing like we're human and selling like we're human. If after listening to the show for a while, you are ready to move on to the next level and start implementing and would welcome a community of like-minded, quietly rebellious entrepreneurs who discuss with transparency what.

[00:00:52] Works and what doesn't work in business, then we'd love to welcome you in our humane marketing circle. If you're picturing your [00:01:00] typical Facebook group, let me paint a new picture for you. This is a closed community of like-minded entrepreneurs from all over the world who come together once per month in a Zoom Circle workshop to hold each other accountable and build their business in a sustainable way.

[00:01:16] We share with transparency and vulnerability what works for us. And what doesn't work so that you can figure out what works for you instead of keep throwing spaghetti on the wall and seeing what sticks. Find out more at humane.marketing/circle, and if you prefer one-on-one support from me. My humane business coaching could be just what you need, whether it's for your marketing, sales, general business building, or help with your big idea like writing a book.

[00:01:47] I'd love to share my brain and my heart with you together with my own. Almost 15 years business experience and help you grow a sustainable business that is joyful and sustainable. If you love this podcast, [00:02:00] wait until I show you my mama bear qualities as my one-on-one client can find out more at humane.marketing/coaching.

[00:02:10] And finally, if you are a marketing impact pioneer and would like to bring friends back, podcast, have a look at offer conversation on my website, website Promotion Humane, and I'm talking to Casebolt about seo. Search engine optimization and specifically about cornerstone content, which Meg will explain in this episode.

[00:02:34] If you're a regular here, you already know that I'm organizing the conversations around the seven Ps of the Humane Marketing Mandala. But if you're new here, you probably don't know what I'm talking about, but you can download your one page marketing plan with the humane marketing version of the seven Ps of marketing at Humane.

[00:02:54] Dot marketing slash one page. That's the number one in the word [00:03:00] page. And this comes with seven email prompts to really help you reflect on these different piece for your business. So it's not a blueprint where it tells you what to do, but it really invites you to think for yourself and, uh, think about these different peas for your business.

[00:03:19] So here's a little info on Meg. Meg Case Vault is the founder of Love at First Search and host of the Social Slowdown podcast. Meg loves to help businesses spend less time trying to hack the algorithms, and instead creates SEO content that attracts your ideal audience to your website while helping entrepreneurs cut their dependency on social media for their business visibility.

[00:03:45] It was never her vision to run an agency, but as her reputation grew, she made the decision to build a team of women that could support these mostly women owned businesses in a powerful feminist way to help them climb the [00:04:00] ranks and get their digital voices heard in a crowded marketplace. So today we're talking about websites or more specifically about generating traffic to our websites.

[00:04:11] We address how. SEO is combining the tech with the human need. Basic steps to get your website optimized for search keyword research, myths and truths, how we can use empathy in our keyword research, whether to write content for the keywords or for our people. How Meg thinks search will evolve with the arrival of AI and so much more.

[00:04:39] So, are you ready for seo for Humane Marketers? Well, then let's talk to Meg. Hey Meg, good to speak to

[00:04:47] Meg: you. It's so good to be here with you. Thank you for having me, Sarah.

[00:04:51] Sarah: Thanks. We just recorded another episode where I was the guest on your podcast and now you're here. I just love doing those. It's, it's when you [00:05:00] really get a feel for the human, you know?

[00:05:02] It's not like, oh, we're just pitching each other for being a podcast guest, and then we never speak again this week. Like, yeah, we get to know each other a little bit,

[00:05:11] Meg: so, And I think when you find somebody that you resonate with, the reciprocity comes naturally versus more of a, you know, well, you know, you scratch my back, I scratch, yours doesn't feel good, but hey, this, we have different things to say to different audiences, but there's a lot of alignment in there, so let's talk to both of these different groups.

[00:05:30] It feels really good, you know?

[00:05:32] Sarah: Exactly. It's not just like, oh, because. Yeah, you pay me now. I pay you back.

[00:05:38] Meg: Yeah, that's true. Collaboration versus reciprocity, right? Yeah. Yeah.

[00:05:43] Sarah: Mm-hmm. So your business is called, uh, love at First Search, and I just want you to start there and, and explain what that means. Well, I kind of gave it away in the intro, but still, uh, tell us, you know, how he came up with [00:06:00] that and.

[00:06:01] And just, yeah, the word love already gives it away. Right? So like, tell us, give us more info

[00:06:07] Meg: on that. Sure, so love it. First Search is a search engine optimization firm where we're helping small businesses mostly to be found on search engines like Google or Bing, but also YouTube is a search engine and any podcast, wherever you're listening to this podcast, that's also a search engine.

[00:06:26] So we're talking a lot to content creators, um, about how to bring in people who. Want to hear your message, how to create content that makes them feel. Seen and valued and appreciated and understood. Uh, a lot of search engine marketing is like a numbers game. It is what is the keyword that you can that has the right amount of search volume, and also it has the low keyword difficulty and not too competitive in terms of our AdWords numbers.

[00:06:59] And like, [00:07:00] there's a lot of metrics around it. Um, And I've had several clients come to me and say, I tried search before and my consultants all tried to push me in a direction that didn't feel good. Um, and so what we are trying to do at Love at First Search is show up in the search results that feel like we understand what our clients need from us, not just what is the most obvious opportunity we want it to feel relevant.

[00:07:30] To what people need versus just kind of a spray and pray approach to marketing.

[00:07:36] Sarah: Yeah, I love that. That is such a more human and humane way of explaining just, just the word s e o alone. Right? If you hear that, and I know that there's a lot of people. Who have never heard of seo, right? Mm-hmm. They have their websites, they're coaches or healers or, or consultants even.

[00:07:58] Uh, and so [00:08:00] whenever we use an abbreviation that assumes that they are supposed to know what it means, but they don't, and then they feel really embarrassed and they're like, oh, I, should I be doing that? What's that? Mm-hmm. Right? And so the, the way you explain it makes so much more sense. Also for people who, who are in humane business because it's, it's not just, it's not just a keyword.

[00:08:25] It, it is about this idea of resonating with ideal clients, right? So, yeah, I love

[00:08:31] Meg: that. And I think a lot of times when people think about surge engine optimization, about s e o as a marketing tactic, um, they see it as a mass marketing tactic of how many people can I get in front of? Um, but. As we know from the ways that kind of the pendulum is swinging in the digital marketing world, it's not necessarily about quantity anymore.

[00:08:55] Um, if you're running, I mean, it is for specific, some specific types of businesses. If you're [00:09:00] running sort of more of a blog or content platform type of business where the number of podcast downloads that, that you get impacts your sponsorship packages and the number of paid views that you get impacts your, you know, cost per visit, like, There is a place for those kinds of businesses where you can be a, a free resource because you have these, these backup monetization options.

[00:09:24] But for so many of us, that's not how we're getting paid. We're getting paid because we are service providers or we sell very specific products to a small group of dedicated people.

[00:09:39] Sarah: Hmm. Yeah.

[00:09:40] Meg: And often the solutions that we're helping our, our audience with are not mass market solutions. We're not Nike trying to sell shoes to everybody.

[00:09:50] We're like, I wanted to sell, you know, shoe insoles to joggers who, uh, have planter fasciitis, right? Like we get really [00:10:00] targeted down and we solve. Problems that people have. So why not? When those people are having those problems, why not be the ones that show up and help help those people in your audience to feel like they're understood?

[00:10:15] Sarah: Yeah, that is such a good point that you, that you mention people are humans, right? Because what we usually hear is traffic or generating traffic. But when you think about traffic, you either see like, you know, a huge traffic jam on a highway and what you see there is cars. You don't see humans or on the internet, you think of traffic.

[00:10:43] I don't see humans, when I think of internet traffic, I just, right. See like. Empty nothing. You know, it's like maybe wires or, or something like

[00:10:51] Meg: that. And so much of the, the noun choices, the word choices that are used in the mass marketing approach and, uh, you've said like hype marketing or [00:11:00] bro marketing, like the, the phrases and choices that we make are traffic and users and page views and visitors.

[00:11:09] They're, it's very, um, The leads, right? Like they're not, they're prospects. Um, especially when we get into like really metric space where it's like, these are the marketing qualified leads and these are the sale qualified leads. And they're not even people anymore. They're just s qls. Right? Like, and there's, there is a place for trying to figure out where your marketing resonates and where people may or may not fit for your messaging.

[00:11:32] Right? But when we start to zoom out that far, we lose sight of Sure. You have. Hundred thousand users on your website. Every single one of those is a human sitting at a computer scrolling through your

[00:11:49] Sarah: words. Exactly. Yeah. So you talk about using empathy in keywords, and so that already is kind of like I.

[00:11:58] Feels like an oxymoron. It's like [00:12:00] what? Empathy keywords, how does that go together? I'm, I'm seeing like spreadsheets with empathy and I'm like, Hmm. How does that work? So tell us how that works.

[00:12:10] Meg: Uh, I think, I think the core of how we need to do marketing better is not just, you know, look at the spreadsheet and figure out the easiest solution, but truly understanding.

[00:12:26] Why our businesses exist, what they do for our audience, and like how we can really start to have that connection with them. And a lot of times, I don't know exactly how to explain this. Let me, you know, a lot of times when people are having some sort of problem or issue, they don't necessarily want to ask their friends for help.

[00:12:53] They don't want to go on Facebook. Um, if, if you're a health coach and you're helping clients who have [00:13:00] Crohn's disease, Then they have a lot of symptoms that are not things that you want your friends to know about. We'll just leave that as like a nice clean answer there. Um, but when people have those kinds of problems, they go to search engines and they go like, I'm having a constant stomach ache.

[00:13:19] Right? That's the nicest, cleanest way to say it. Um, there's a lot of poop keywords out there, so I'll try not to get too heavy in that. But, um, you know, the. They don't want people to know, but Google feels like a safe place to get slightly unbiased answers to questions that you don't wanna go on Facebook and say to people like, I'm struggling in my marriage and I'm thinking about getting a divorce, or, my child is struggling with this and, and like, there's a lot of pride that people have and they want to present themselves to their friends, to their, their networks as having it all together, but, When it comes to search, that's a safe place to ask the questions [00:14:00] that you don't feel safe asking in other places.

[00:14:02] Sarah: Yeah, it, it reminds me of an exercise we do in the marketing, like we're human program where we look at the empathy map. Yes, you've seen this, right? Mm-hmm. Where you think about your ideal client and you, um, think of what they say, think, feel, and do. Mm-hmm. I don't know if I got the order correctly, but, but yeah, it's exactly that.

[00:14:24] It's like, what are they thinking or, or what are they Googling would be a good way also to, to say it, right. What are they Googling? But they're never gonna say that in a first session with you, right? Mm-hmm. It's like, it's the embarrassing things that. If you then, and I guess what you're saying is where the empathy shows up is if you then write a post that in addresses that issue with empathy, not with shaming, of course.

[00:14:54] Mm-hmm. Then they feel heard and seen because they just found a. The solution and [00:15:00] they found the human who offers that solution.

[00:15:03] Meg: Yeah, sometimes it's not even like the post absolutely can be empathetic and that will help with the conversion, but just seeing the name of the post show up in those search results can sometimes be a validation of the experience.

[00:15:16] Mm-hmm. You know, I was talking yesterday with a play therapist in Virginia and some of her keywords will be very obvious, like, Play therapy, Virginia, right? Like her specific town. Um, she's works specifically with adoptive families, so it's like play therapy for adoptive children. Um, so sometimes the keywords can be very clear, but we also tried to get to the empathy of it.

[00:15:37] What are the problems that these children are exhibiting? That they're getting the calls from school saying Your child seems to have anxiety, or the preschooler is biting. What are those things that they, the, the parent doesn't know where to go. The parent doesn't know what to do next. Or the, they're, they're like, oh, my kid's [00:16:00] about to get kicked outta preschool cuz they're hitting and bit, what can I do to help them?

[00:16:03] Right? Like when people have problems they go seeking solutions. And if you can be that port in the storm, that safe place to say, I know what to I'm, yeah, my kid bit too. I know how to help them work through that. I know how to help you as a parent, work through it with them. You're not alone, because just by the fact that this is showing up in those search results, it proves that I've been there.

[00:16:30] Mm-hmm. And I can help you with it. There's a certain amount of connection that happens in just having your experience acknowledged.

[00:16:38] Sarah: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. From there, you then, So, so now we're kind of, kind of learning, okay, to do keyword research, but coming from this place of empathy, right? Mm-hmm. So all of a sudden it doesn't just feel like this left brain analytical mm-hmm.

[00:16:57] Uh, activity because we're bringing in the right brain [00:17:00] and actually thinking, well, what would they be searching for? How can I really show empathy and help them with their problem? So we're doing the research, uh, the keyword research. What's the next step? So how, or, or maybe already still like. You talked quickly before, volume and, uh, difficulty of, of competition and all that.

[00:17:25] Tell us what we need to look for, uh, in these keywords.

[00:17:29] Meg: Well, so let's define keyword research before we leap too much into sort of the strategy behind it. Right. So when we, keyword research is another one of those phrases that can feel overwhelming because people go, oh, that's a lot of spreadsheets. Um, keyword research is.

[00:17:44] Figuring out what people are typing into Google. That's it. And those phrases that you sit down and you type in, or you know, most of us are doing it from our phones now sometimes us are speaking into Siri for it, right? But, [00:18:00] um, whatever you are asking, Google is your keyword. So it doesn't have to be one word, it can be a phrase, it can be a question, it can be a statement.

[00:18:10] Um, anything that you can search is a keyword word. Now the next step, like you said, is to figure out for not necessarily every page on your website, but every page on your website can be found for different keywords. So it's not that you have to be found for, you know, humane business coach, and that is the only phrase and you have to put it on every page of your website so that people who are looking for that can find that one phrase and you have to put all your eggs in that basket.

[00:18:42] Um, this is not the Lord of the Rings. There is no like one keyword to rule them all. This is an, and one of the reasons I love SEO and I feel like I can talk about this with you, is like it's an abundance mindset. Mm. Mm-hmm. This isn't a scarcity thing where like, I have to be found for SEO consultant or nobody [00:19:00] will ever find me.

[00:19:01] This is what are all the different on-ramps to this highway that different people need at different points, but the destination is the same. Right. Yeah. So you can, you can be found for that one phrase of humane businesses or gentle marketing. Like you can have those sort of branded search terms where you have spent time to build a brand around the titles of your books and the titles of your business and the, you know, your community name.

[00:19:30] Like those are branded search, but we also have search terms that are just like, what do people need from us? What questions do they ask and each of those concepts each, I call them keyword clusters, but each of those search intents can go to a different page of your website. It doesn't all have to filter in through your homepage.

[00:19:56] Your copy doesn't have to convert all from right there. You have [00:20:00] the opportunity to create infinite number of entry points. So every podcast episode that you record can be found for a hundred different search terms. How cool is that? It's very cool.

[00:20:14] Sarah: It's very cool if you, if you, if you know how to do that keyword research.

[00:20:20] Mm-hmm. Because I think also maybe what you need to explain is this idea of, you know, the volume and the, the difficulty of actually ranking. Because 15 years ago when I started out, it was relatively okay. You know, you could rank. Highly, pretty not, I'm not gonna say easily, but it was definitely much easier than today.

[00:20:44] Today we have so much content out there. You do have to have a certain knowledge about, you know, what do people search, how much do they search for that? And then also how much content does already exist. [00:21:00] That is. Optimized, I think you would say for that keyword word, right?

[00:21:04] Meg: Yeah. You just nailed the, the three big things is what do people search for?

[00:21:08] How many people search for it and how many other people have written about it. Um, and that's where some of those search metrics come into place is figuring out, not just like, what are people saying, but if I were to target this idea, could I actually show up for it? Right? And so sometimes people aim too high.

[00:21:30] And they go, I'm gonna try to be found for online business without that recognition of, but why? Mm-hmm. I'm like, why that phrase? Oh cuz I'm an online business coach. Um, okay. Cool. But what do you, what do you help people with? What do you do differently? What are your what, how, what about your approaches different?

[00:21:50] Um, we have a student right now in one of our programs who is, she calls herself a, a conscious business coach for changemakers, which is not a phrase that. [00:22:00] Anybody would know to look for, right? Um, but she does really well in a post that she has about why she doesn't do discovery calls and how you can run, uh, a more, um, streamlined and better feeling business if you have an alternative to discovery calls.

[00:22:16] And the phrase that shows up is alternative to discovery calls. Hmm.

[00:22:22] Sarah: Wow. Go figure. Yeah,

[00:22:23] Meg: sometimes it doesn't have to be, you know, hundreds of thousands of people searching for a keyword. But those people who are going to Google after doing another discovery call that tanked, and they're going, oh, how do I stop doing discovery calls?

[00:22:37] And they find her website. But

[00:22:38] Sarah: here's the question. How did she come up? Like how did she think of. Using that as a keyword, or was that just a fluke? And then she noticed, and

[00:22:49] Meg: sometimes it's a fluke, right? Sometimes you stumble into a phrase and you sudden, and you can use the metrics to figure out what that is.

[00:22:58] I'd be happy to teach people how to go into their [00:23:00] Google search console and go, you know, there are ways to know exactly what every single phrase is that people find you for, but sometimes. In her case in particular for Caroline, it was like, I just know that people would come into that and then go to my contact form and then say, I found you through this blog post.

[00:23:17] Nice. It doesn't always have to be this like automated user flow. What's the conversion rate from each landing page? It's important information. Yeah. But sometimes you can get the same information from a conversation. Yeah.

[00:23:32] Sarah: So

[00:23:33] Meg: nice. And then if you're trying to figure out what to create next that might attract those ideal clients, like listen to your ideal clients.

[00:23:42] What else don't they like about what's happening in the online, in her case, in the online or your case too? Probably. Like what's, what are those things that they don't like? Okay. Create blog posts or podcast episodes about your unique approach to it, right? Yeah. [00:24:00] And your content can come either from, you know, the key being keyword driven.

[00:24:07] Which is making sure that you know that exact phrase that people are looking for and then putting it when you're, when you're publishing the document for the first time, you can say, okay, I'll put this in my SEO title and my, my blog post title and my subheadings and my alt text. Like there's a way to do it that way, but I find that for a lot more of my kind of heart-centered marketers that I work with, it can be easier to create something.

[00:24:33] Think about what would people search. If they needed this, include some of that thought process into the post and then hit publish and wait and see what happens.

[00:24:45] Sarah: Hmm. Okay.

[00:24:47] Meg: It doesn't always have to be driven from the keywords. It can be what resonates and then how can I optimize what's already working?

[00:24:56] Sarah: Right. Yeah. So, so flipping it on its head [00:25:00] and starting. Instead of starting with the strategy, starting with the empathy, because you're writing content that your ideal clients, uh, will resonate with, and then seeing, okay, this works. This one doesn't. Let me take the one that works and make it even better and more optimized for the, the search

[00:25:19] Meg: engine.

[00:25:20] Exactly. And it can also, if you, if you, if, if that approach. Resonates with you, then it can also feel a lot more connected to the needs of your clients and take away some of that perfectionism. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because there's absolutely a feeling when you have some sort of like, I'm gonna spend so much time writing these blog posts, and I wanna make sure that they show up and search results right away, and if I don't get it right, then what's the point?

[00:25:49] Right. But if we're creating for our audience first and then optimizing for search second, then you know what it, [00:26:00] this is everything about marketing is the 80 20 rule, right? The Pareto principle, that 20% of your work creates 80% of your results. So if you publish things and you also send them out to your newsletter and you, you know, share them wherever your audience is and 20% of them bring in search traffic, then maybe that's.

[00:26:21] That's actually very normal. Um, but then when people land on the pages that are working for search, then you can link to them to the other ones that are still valuable, that are still important, but are still part of your unique approach to things. And once people arrive on your website, then they can go explore that information.

[00:26:40] We don't need to be found for every search result. We need to be introduced and then let your website tell your story.

[00:26:49] Sarah: Basically what you're saying is you, you don't need every page or every block post to bring you, you know, all this traffic because if you just have one or [00:27:00] two or three or, or I know, obviously the more the better.

[00:27:03] But if you just have a few that really work and. And they can really work. Like, they can really work. Some of them is like, oh my God, you know, all of a sudden you're like getting tons and tons of new signups to your, to your, uh, freebie or whatever. Mm-hmm. So, so yeah, that's enough, right? It's, and then like you said, you just link it to your other blog posts so that, um, so that people could still discover more, more content.

[00:27:31] I guess that also leads us to this idea of. Cornerstone pages because that's another thing you mentioned when we, uh, exchanged by email. Um, so yeah, was what you described already, maybe an example of a cornerstone page where you linked to other.

[00:27:49] Meg: Not, not quite. There is, there is what it is. Something relevant there, so.

[00:27:53] Mm-hmm. Um, what we were talking about earlier with some of these metrics around, you know, there are certain amounts of keywords [00:28:00] that a lot of people are looking for, but other people have talked about, so it can be harder to rank for those terms. Right. Um, It can be really helpful if you're in that boat to create a longer piece of content that shares everything that you've created on a topic.

[00:28:16] So you know, you might create a, a piece of cornerstone content called the Humane Approach to Online Business Marketing. The ultimate, well, you can almost think of these as like ultimate guides. Everything you need to know about this topic, humane marketing, one-on-one, whatever we wanna call that post, right, where you've talked about humane marketing on.

[00:28:39] Every page of your website, right? Every single one. Well, maybe this is not maybe the right phrase for you because it is your domain name, so it'll go to your homepage. Well, we can talk about that. I'm, I'm spitballing here a little bit. Um, but let's, let's think about that core value that you have or that core idea, that category that you're talking about.

[00:28:56] There. There can be a point where you can create an outline of what [00:29:00] are the, the framework, what are the principles that I'm talking about all the time, and what have I already created that supports this? Mm. And then you can create one ultimate guide that covers all of that. And if we're talking about a phrase like humane marketing, gentle marketing, ethical marketing, that's sprinkled throughout your website, Google doesn't always know like, what is the right page?

[00:29:28] Mm-hmm. To share that information. Um, But if you have a guide on your website that's longer, that links to all those other things and that all those other places around the website where you've talked about that, it links back to that guide, that cornerstone content. Sometimes it's called silo content. I.

[00:29:48] Then that is a clear indicator to Google that that is the place on your website for that term. And you can rank for terms that a lot of other people have talked about. If they haven't gone [00:30:00] into the level of detail that you have in that guide, then you can like, Jump up ahead of them in those search results because you've created something that is better quality that positions you as a, an authority on that topic, and that proves to Google that you know what you're talking about.

[00:30:16] And so that's what we're talking about with cornerstone content. And I often talk to podcasters who are like, I have a hundred episodes talking about this particular topic. And I'm like, okay. Create, you know, an overview guide. Basically take take a, a. Piece of thread and tie a narrative through the most important things that you're talking about.

[00:30:36] Mm-hmm. Um, for my podcast, we created a cornerstone guide called, um, mental Health, entrepreneurship and Social Media, because nobody's talking about those three pieces together. Right. Yeah,

[00:30:49] Sarah: I love that. And so did you research whether there is search volume for mental health and social media?

[00:30:57] Meg: Yeah, so it was conversations that I was having [00:31:00] on the podcast already with therapists and social workers and you know, like I was having those conversations already.

[00:31:07] The content was already created. Mm-hmm. And I knew that it was a topic that we wanted to discuss more. And I was starting to see some of these keywords show up in our metrics around mental health and entrepreneurship or around social media. Anxiety was a phrase that we targeted for that particular page.

[00:31:25] Um, And so we wrote a longer post that was just like, here are the entrepreneurs that we've interviewed who talked about anxiety. Here are the ones that, uh, and, and here are the mental health professionals that we've interviewed. And we took poll quotes from their episodes and then linked to those episodes.

[00:31:41] So if people are looking for that, they, it's basically like, almost like a playlist, right, of what's already been created. But instead of just a list of hero, the things that we've created in this category, we're telling a story in that post. So here's what

[00:31:56] Sarah: I just finished, um, is, uh, a hugely [00:32:00] long, uh, post about humane marketing words we love.

[00:32:04] Ooh. And so it goes through all these wor words like abundance and intuition, integrity and conscious, like all of these words that I use all over the book. And then I linked, yeah, to. Podcasts or, or, or blog posts or so. So would that be an example of a, uh, cornerstone page? Totally. Even though there, there's probably no search volume for humane marketing words yet, right?

[00:32:33] Meg: So ye yes and no. So the thing about cornerstone content is that it is a guide in one place. And in your case, it's almost like a thought leadership. Mm-hmm. Piece of cornerstone content so that when more people become aware of these terms, um, they can then, like Google will already know that it exists.

[00:32:52] You're ahead of the curve, hopefully. Mm-hmm. Um, but the great thing about it is that. Now it exists. [00:33:00] Right. And sure, Google can find it and they can send you traffic for it, but it's still an incredibly powerful asset in your business, right?

[00:33:08] Sarah: Yeah. It's thinking of using it like in the menu bar, um, like as a start here or

[00:33:13] Meg: something like that.

[00:33:14] Mm-hmm. I would say a start here button, I could say, I could see you calling it almost like a, a term glossary. Mm-hmm. Like a humane marketing term glossary. Like what? What is it? It's use that people might need from it. They might go, oh, what are all these terms? Like how would you define these things?

[00:33:29] Right. Um, So you could include it on your homepage and say, come check out our humane dark marketing glossary. Mm-hmm. To give people that idea of what is that resource for them? Right? Yeah. Um, but then also every page on your website that is linked from that, that glossary, you can then link back to it. Mm mm-hmm.

[00:33:51] So if somebody listens to your episode about abundance, And then goes to the show notes, and then checks out the glossary, and then [00:34:00] goes and listens to the one about, uh, consciousness. Right? Like it can be a, a piece of, sometimes they'll call it hub content, right? Yeah. That it doesn't have to just be there for Google.

[00:34:11] It can be a really great navigation tool. Um, and maybe, I mean, maybe you wanna turn it into a downloadable PDF that people can have as a

[00:34:20] Sarah: guide. Right. Yeah. That would be another option. Exactly. I saw that's that's what you have because it's so long. Right? It's like, well, well you want a PDF of

[00:34:29] Meg: that? Yeah.

[00:34:30] When people get to, we have a cornerstone guide on the Loveit first search website. No, I was talking about the podcast, um, cornerstone a minute ago. But we have one on our loveit first search site that is just like, here's our 15 step approach to creating a really search friendly website. Um, And the, the post itself is 7,500 words.

[00:34:48] It is a short novel. Um, it's a novel. It's, it's a novel. It's a blog post novella. You don't have to write that much. I, this is what I do. Right? Like, this is what we do best. Um, yours does not. [00:35:00] Absolutely. It can be, it can be. I. 1500 words and still be considered cornerstone content. Right. So don't feel like that's the norm.

[00:35:05] Mm-hmm. Um, this was a labor of love that we put together last year. It took me 50 hours to create That's not normal. Yeah, right. But knowing that it is a 7,500 word blog post, our calls to action on the cornerstone guide for the first third of it, for the first like 2000 words is like, Yeah, this is really long.

[00:35:25] Do you just want me to email this to you? Do you want me to, to just, so we send it as a pdf d and then we send follow up emails that, you know, we turned it into an automated funnel to make, to break it down and make it feel more reasonable to consume, um, where we break it into a three, sort of like a three act process and then provide those.

[00:35:45] Like resources in those documents and each one has a video. And so we created it into more of an opt-in guide. But that's not, not everyone has to go to that level of extreme. Right. But our, our opt-ins are insane on it. It's like, uh, our op, we get a [00:36:00] 7% opt-in rate when people land on that guide. Because it has value.

[00:36:05] It doesn't always get surge traffic because there's so much on the internet about web design, but when people land on that page, they join my email list, they join my programs, like it converts very well for us, and it's. It tries to meet people at every stage of that process and let them choose where they are in that process and not feel like you have to start from step one.

[00:36:26] So there's a lot of, you know, when you're creating a guide based on your approach or your framework, it can be hard to figure out how to organize it. But what you just said about having a glossary, like that's, that's a way of proving that you are using these terms and sharing where they fit on your website and allowing people to go exploring in a way that feels good.

[00:36:48] Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. No, I really like this idea of, of first helping your clients, but then also hopefully helping your, uh, helping the search engines, right. [00:37:00] Understanding, more learning about your unique approach. So, so yeah. That, that really feels good. Um, can you have more than one cornerstone content? Yeah. Or is that just like, you have to have one piece and that's it.

[00:37:16] Meg: No, anytime that you have sort of a core idea mm-hmm. You can create cornerstone content around it. Um, some people, and again, this comes back to like, do you start from the keywords or do you start from the content, um, you know, the chicken or the egg of all of it. Some people who have been creating for a long time, they could go through, audit their content, maybe just kind of note like what are the, the themes that continue to show up?

[00:37:41] Right. And come up with an idea for a cornerstone guide. Um, And then those people who already have all that content might then create an outline and say, you know, based on what's here, I can see the the gaps. I can go create more content, I can build this up. Right? And then there are gonna be the [00:38:00] folks who are like, I already know that I wanna talk about, you know, mental health and social media.

[00:38:04] So here are the topics that I wanna talk about, and I'm gonna go create each of those. Podcast episodes. I'm gonna go seek out the guests that I need. I'm gonna create the guide in order. There's no right or wrong way to create these. It's just more of take the building blocks. And build a wall. Mm-hmm.

[00:38:22] Sarah: Yeah. What I like most about talking with you just now is that you, you hand out these permission slips as well. It's like, no, you don't have to start with the keyword research because, um, before we started, Talking, I, I went on to Neil Patel again and saw all his videos and I'm like, I just, no, I can't go back there.

[00:38:46] Like, it's

[00:38:47] Meg: just, it's so prescriptive. It's so, it's so

[00:38:50] Sarah: prescriptive and it's just like all this Yeah. Kind of masculine energy and Yeah. Spreadsheets and all. I'm like, it's just not for me. [00:39:00] But to hear you say, well, you can start it with the content and then start to optimize it. That, yeah, that feels really, really good.

[00:39:08] So thanks for handing us, it's so

[00:39:11] Meg: slip, it's so clear that I'm neuro divergent. Right. Like that there are all these rules and as, as an industry, it's very much a like linear approach to the way of doing things. And my brain is just not linear. Mm-hmm. And I don't want it to be linear. And there are a lot of rules out there that are like, Here, do this checklist, follow this plan, get these results, re improve on the results.

[00:39:34] And I sit down to do the plan and I'm like, but I don't wanna,

[00:39:38] Sarah: no, it's like, I'm a rebel. I don't wanna follow your, your silly

[00:39:42] Meg: rules. Yeah. And like where is the space in that for inspiration? Where is the space in that? For intuition? Yeah. Yeah. Sometimes the best, the best content that you create is not the stuff that's in the plan.

[00:39:53] It's the stuff that you stumble into because you're following your gut. Yeah.

[00:39:59] Sarah: And we [00:40:00] talked earlier on, on your show about, you know, chat C p t and, and AI and all of that. Imagine now with how easy it is to just tell chat. C p t, write me a blog post St. Six steps for blah, blah, blah. And we're gonna have be bombarded while with all this like, inhumane, boring content that just feels like, you know, the same guy wrote it.

[00:40:26] Um, and so imagine now, You showing up with your content. That starts from within. That starts from the heart, and sure. Once you posted it, you're gonna pay attention to some keywords, but it doesn't start with that. How different is that gonna feel? Right. To the reader? It's completely different. It really is.

[00:40:47] Meg: Yeah. And that's what can set you apart, right? Yeah. That's where, that's where all of this empathy comes into play is right. You can sound like everyone else, but the thing that's going to set you [00:41:00] apart, the, and you, the thing that's going to make your quality matter more than someone else's quantity is your humanity, right?

[00:41:10] Sarah: Yeah. Mm. That's a nice line, I think to end mic drop. Yeah. Wonderful. Well, this has been, this has been really joyful and fun. Thanks so much for hanging out. Please do tell people where they can get that really, really long. PDF that they need to download.

[00:41:33] Meg: You don't have to go download it. You can just go browse around.

[00:41:36] You don't have to. That's the other thing about me. I'm like, you don't have to do anything. I'm very like rebellious in nature. Um, if you would like to find out more, you can head over [email protected]. We have an SEO starter kit right there that can help you start to get at the I your head.

[00:41:50] Wrapping around this idea of keyword research. You can check out our SEO website guide, which is that long. Forum guide of, you know, pop in wherever you are in the framework and [00:42:00] figure out where it makes sense to, uh, to optimize your website. Um, whether you're creating it from scratch or it's been up for years, there are steps in there that make sense based on where you are progressively.

[00:42:11] Um, we also do have a podcast and you can come listen to Sarah on the podcast cause we just recorded that. Um, that is called the Social Slowdown Podcast, so you can find that on whatever podcast device you're listening to or social slowdown.com.

[00:42:24] Sarah: Wonderful. I always have one last question, and that is, what are you grateful for today or this week?

[00:42:30] Meg: I mean, today you and I had to push things around because my, my elder son has been struggling in school, and so the school actually brought in a clinically trained psychologist to observe him in class and help us come up with ways to support him both in the classroom and at home, and that's a really powerful thing.

[00:42:50] Too. Now I'm getting a little choked up, but you know that feeling of, of. Having somebody that you care about, be seen and supported. Um, and for me, that's [00:43:00] a huge amount of gratitude of being, being supported as a parent and knowing that my kid's getting what he needs.

[00:43:06] Sarah: Yeah. What a wonderful service that, yeah.

[00:43:08] School is offering.

[00:43:09] Meg: That's great. Yeah. And it turns out, um, it's occupational therapy. It's sensory, sensory inputs. So I'm like, okay, I guess we'll be doing more army crawls in the morning before you go to school. That's the answer to all of it.

[00:43:22] Sarah: Thanks so much for sharing. Thanks for being here, Meg. And uh, yeah, we'll talk again,

[00:43:27] Meg: I hope.

[00:43:28] All right, talk to you soon, Sarah. Thank you so much.

[00:43:32] Sarah: I hope you learned a lot in this episode, specifically how you can use empathy in our seo. I find that so empowering. Please have a look at me's work [email protected], and check out me SEO starter Kit [email protected] slash. Start also check out Meg's podcast called The Social Slowdown, where I was a recent guest on and we [00:44:00] talked all things humane marketing.

[00:44:02] If you are looking for others who think like you, then why not join us in the Humane Marketing Circle? You can find out more at humane.marketing/circle. You find the show notes of this [email protected] slash 1 63 on this beautiful page. You'll also find a series of free offers, such as my Saturday newsletter, the Humane Business Manifesto, and the free Gentle Confidence mini course, as well as my two books, marketing like we're Human and selling like we're human.

[00:44:38] Thank you so much for listening and being part of a generation of marketers who cares. For yourself, your clients, and the planet. We are change makers before we are marketers. Now go be the change you want to see in the world. Speak soon.

Let me tell you about today's guest, Alexander Inchbald.

Alexander is on a mission to help 10,000 changemakers to create their Masterpiece and become Rainmakers. He is the founder of the #Masterpiece Movement, a growing community of pioneers, changemakers, misfits and rebels. Together with other likeminded communities they are creating a system that will sustain humankind.

Alexander is a global authority on creativity: how we master our mind and body during the act of creation so we create a Masterpiece. He has studied Masters from the worlds of art, science, religion and leadership, explored the cutting edge of psychology, neurology, physiology, epigenetics and metaphysics, and experimenting with creativity, painting in gale force, freezing conditions and blizzards all over the world. The story that has emerged will literally blow your mind.

He is a bestselling author a few times over, has worked on all of the United Nation's Sustainable Development Goals and lives with his family above Lake Geneva

In today's episode, Alex and I talk about:

• The story of money, from the industrial revolution until today
• What this means to us today
• WooWoo mountain, the feminine vicious cycle and why it prevents us from building business that make money
• Reclaim the artist as well as the art director
• How we can change our relationship to money
• The inner and outer game
• The role of creativity (and the right brain) in making money
• Why can can't neglect the left brain
• And so much more

[00:00:00] Sarah: Hello, humane marketers. Welcome back to the Humane Marketing Podcast, the place to be for the generation of marketers that cares. This is a show where we talk about running your business in a way that feels good to you, is aligned with your values, and also resonates with today's conscious customers because it's humane, ethical, and non-pushy.

[00:00:23] I'm Sarah z Croce, your hippie turn business coach for quietly rebellious entrepreneurs and marketing impact pioneers. Mama Bear of the Humane Marketing Circle. And renegade author of marketing like We're human and selling like we're human. If after listening to the show for a while, you are ready to move on to the next level and start implementing and would welcome a community of like-minded, quietly rebellious entrepreneurs who discuss with transparency what.

[00:00:52] Works and what doesn't work in business, then we'd love to welcome you in our humane marketing circle. If you're picturing your [00:01:00] typical Facebook group, let me paint a new picture for you. This is a closed community of like-minded entrepreneurs from all over the world who come together once per month in a Zoom Circle workshop to hold each other accountable and build their business in a sustainable way.

[00:01:16] We share with transparency and vulnerability what works for us and what doesn't work, so that you can figure out what works for you instead of keep throwing spaghetti. On the wall and seeing what sticks. Find out more at humane.marketing/circle, and if you prefer one-on-one support from me. My Humane Business Coaching could be just what you need, whether it's for your marketing, sales, general business building, or help with your big idea like writing a book.

[00:01:47] I'd love to share my brain and my heart with you together with my almost 15 years business experience and help you grow a sustainable business that is joyful and sustainable. If you love this [00:02:00] podcast, wait until I show you my Mama Bear qualities as my one-on-one client can find out more at Humane Marketing slash coaching.

[00:02:09] And finally, if you are a Marketing Impact pioneer and would like to bring Humane Marketing to your organization, have a look at my offers and workshops on my [email protected].

[00:02:29] Hello, friends. Today I have another deep and intriguing conversation for you, and it falls under the P of pricing. It's more about money, but money has to do with pricing, right? If you're irregular here, you know that I'm organizing the conversations around the seven Ps of the Humane Marketing Mandala. If this is your first time here and you don't know what I'm talking about, you can download your one page marketing plan with the seven Ps of Humane [00:03:00] [email protected] slash one page humane.marketing, not.com humane.marketing.

[00:03:09] One page, the number one and the word page. And this comes with seven email prompts to really help you reflect on these different piece for your business. So it's not a blueprint or a step-by-step or cookie cutter approach. It's, uh, not perspec prescriptive, but it really is, um, helping you to reflect on your seven Ps for humane marketing.

[00:03:37] So today I'm speaking to my new friend, Alexander Ald, whom I, I've met in December at a lovely fondue afternoon with nine other beautiful human beings, and we somehow telepathically connected and he gifted me his book Masterpiece, which is truly a masterpiece. [00:04:00] And, uh, that's what we're gonna be talking about today.

[00:04:03] And. Obviously, like I said, going to talk about money, pricing, and also this idea of the masculine and the feminine energy, but mainly the masculine because money has to do with masculine energy. Before, I'll tell you a little bit more about Alexander. I'll also invite you in the behind the scenes of my pricing journey with our community.

[00:04:28] The Humane Marketing Circle. I started this community in late 2019. It has been kind of going already in a small group before, and for the first year, people could basically join for free as part of, uh, my book launch on Kickstarter, and they were free members for a full. And then obviously, you know what happened in 20 20 20, uh, and then whoever wanted to stay after 2020, [00:05:00] they, uh, paid 20 bucks per month.

[00:05:03] Then I increased it to 37, uh, dollars per month and then to 47, and now it's back at 37. You know, economic circumstances and all of that. But meanwhile, more people joined. We added a second monthly call. We moved from, uh, tr a Trello board, which was very simplistic, and it worked for a while for us. But now we're kind of going pro onto a new online platform.

[00:05:35] And now we have an engaged online component to the community, and we're hosting that on cajabi, which I kind of joke about. It's, it's very much like us, um, because Cajabi bought this new, um, platform just recently. And so it's a, it. Kind of the little sister of Mighty Networks. It has big dreams, and yet it's [00:06:00] not perfect yet.

[00:06:00] And that kind of reminds me of ourselves as a quietly rebellious and, uh, heart-centered changemakers and marketers. You know, uh, we're not perfect. We we're, uh, doing our very best and that's what our online platform is like. And, and so yeah, people are loving it. And in January I hired a community facilitator, uh, Eddie, who's connecting men members amongst each other and really cry, creating this interconnectedness between members, which is so important in a community.

[00:06:36] So together we have created something just beautiful and unique and. Totally ready for this new business paradigm that's very Aquarius oriented, you know, power to the people. Um, it's not a top down approach where I'm basically the guru and te teaching you how to do it. No, we're tapping [00:07:00] into our own personal powers and, and sharing what works for us and learning from everybody else what works for them so that we can then figure out, well, I'd like to do this in business and I, you know, this person shared this thing.

[00:07:16] I wanna try that. And, and so it's, it is very much in this, uh, Aquarius energy. If, um, if any of you listening are into, um, astrology or kind of follow that even loosely. So yeah, we've really created something very beautiful and unique, I think, uh, together. And now it's time for me to bring in the masculine energy and walk my talk about creating sustainable businesses.

[00:07:46] Um, I always share that with my clients and the, the marketing like we're human program. And even in this circle we talk about how just because we come from this place of giving and lots of empathy [00:08:00] and, you know, humane approach to business does not mean that we don't want to have a sustainable business.

[00:08:07] We operate from this principle of maximum sustainable generosity, right? And this community has definitely been grown based on that principle, maximum sustainable generosity. And now has come the time where, um, I need to bring in that masculine energy and make it sustainable for me. Uh, beautiful things, good things take time to grow.

[00:08:33] And we are at the point now where I feel like. This is just absolutely a gorgeous community. Uh, and now I do need to bring up the price because up till now it wasn't sustainable for me, and that's okay. Again, it takes time and uh, you can't charge the full price from day one. That just makes logical business sense, but now it's time.

[00:08:56] So on May 5th, I'll be [00:09:00] introducing a new humane three-tier pricing that is, Conveying all the value you really get in this community and it's sustainable for the host and everyone else's work that needs to be paid fairly. I'm announcing this price increase not to use urgency to get you to sign up, but it wouldn't feel fair that I'm doubling the price overnight without giving you at least a last chance to sign up at the current rate.

[00:09:29] You know, it has happened to me where I go to a website and offering, all of a sudden the price is like much higher and I'm like, well, I wish I knew about this. So that's kind of why I'm doing this. Um, now so. Again, um, if you've been playing with the idea of maybe joining us now is a good time, you'll still be kind of considered, I wouldn't say founding members because, um, again, I've been hosting this for over three years, so, [00:10:00] uh, it's not really a founding member rate anymore, but it's just kind of like this, um, you know, maybe a budding rate.

[00:10:07] Like we. Add the verge of something that is going to grow. And, and, and if you get in now, uh, well, you get in at that $37 per month rate. The new rates will come into place on May 5th. Have a [email protected] forward slash circle and see if, uh, this is a good fit for you. And we'd love to have you okay with that.

[00:10:35] Um, and I hope Alexander is, is proud about me demonstrating my, uh, masculine energy here. So let me tell you a little bit about today's guest, Alexander ald. Um, Alexander is on a mission to help 10,000 change makers to create their masterpiece and become rainmakers. He's the founder of the Masterpiece Movement.

[00:10:58] A growing community of [00:11:00] pioneers, changemakers, misfits, and rebels. Together with other like-minded communities, they are creating a system that will sustain human. Alexander is a global authority on creativity, how we master our mind embodied during the act of creation so we can create a masterpiece. He has studied masters from the worlds of art, science, religion, leadership, explored the cutting edge of psychology, neurology, psychology, epigenetics and metaphysics, and experimented with creativity, painting in gale force, freezing conditions and blizzards all over the world.

[00:11:41] This story that has emerged will literally blow your mind. Alexander is a bestselling author a few times over and has worked on all of the United Nations, sustain sustainable development goals, and he lives with his family here in Switzerland above Lake Geneva. And [00:12:00] I've had the pleasure to, uh, be over at his house just recently with a beautiful view.

[00:12:05] So in our time together, we speak about. The story of money from the Industrial Revolution until today. What this means to us today, uh, I get him to talk about woo woo mountain, the feminine vicious cycle, and why it prevents us from building a business that makes money, reclaim the artist as well as the art director.

[00:12:30] How we can change our relationship to money, the inner and the outer game, the role of creativity, the right brain in making money. Why we can't neglect the left brain and so much more. Um, this is a deep conversation. It's a conversation where I use my. Um, left brain and Capricorn being to, um, you know, kind of ground and bring ourselves [00:13:00] back because, uh, Alexander can go really far into these concepts that I have to admit are, uh, sometimes even, uh, a bit far out for me.

[00:13:10] So, um, it's a rainy conversation. So if you're ready for that, let's dive in. Hi Alexander. So good to see you speak to you today.

[00:13:23] Alexander: Wonderful to be here. Sarah, thank you so much for having

[00:13:25] Sarah: me. Yeah. Um, I was on a webinar with you last week. That was amazing. And then of course, uh, as I mentioned in the intro, we, uh, met in person, which is like so rare nowadays, right?

[00:13:40] That you get to meet people in person. And we get to meet again actually, uh, tomorrow after this recording. So I'm looking forward to that. But, um, let's share with, uh, my listeners a little bit of the conversations that, uh, partly from your webinar, also from your book, [00:14:00] that you, um, so kindly shared with me and I entitled this, uh, conversation.

[00:14:06] Can't remember the exact words, but something about money and masculine energy, because that's what I feel like. You bring to us, right? This kind of dance between the feminine and the masculine and what that has to do with money, uh, how art comes in as well, because you are an artist. So yeah. Let's, let's dive in.

[00:14:30] Um, why don't you start with kind of like, um, an excerpt of the story that you sh shared in this webinar. Um, I was on last week, I think it was called, um, it was called The Path of Prosperity, right? That was the title. Yeah. So sh sh Start us out there.

[00:14:49] Alexander: Wow. Um, you know, the Pathway of Prosperity is, is a model that emerged, uh, in Switzerland.

[00:14:55] Last year I was working with a group of pioneers and one of my business partners, a guy called Peter [00:15:00] kk, and Peter looked at our relationship to money and has looked at it for the last thir 30, 40 years. Um, and he discovered some really, really interesting things when he looked at our relationship to money.

[00:15:12] Um, And the modern conception of money was created and designed by some very conscious people 250 years ago, um, around the time of the Industrial Revolution. And the industrial Revolution kind of, um, represents the extreme of the masculine end of the pathway. So there's a feminine end to the pathway, and you'd have to go back 200,000 years really to the dawn of humankind, um, in the Great River Valley in Africa, or at least that's one history you could say.

[00:15:43] And that was kind of all feminine energy. So what is feminine energy? Feminine energy is, is, is being in connection. And if you've ever been in a real state of flow, you feel that you're in connection with something, something greater, um, than yourself. And somehow the energy of creativity [00:16:00] flows through you.

[00:16:00] So just go to a moment like that. Maybe it was a moment you. Deeply in love with somebody in front of you, or a moment that you, you know, you created a painting and it just hours flew by or, or you finished a report at that moment. Actually the mind isn't really very active. You, you're just kind of in a state of connection or in a state of communion.

[00:16:20] And then the opposite end of that is, is the industrial age. Um, and the industrial age. We've gone from kind of being connected to all of it, um, to being a cog in a wheel. Um, and the pathway, we actually talk about the pathway all the way from this to this. But, um, that takes about an hour. So, so I'm not gonna do that in this conversation.

[00:16:40] Let, let me start this end. Let's work our way back. So this is the pathway of separation, moving from being connected to, disconnected from being part of all of it, to being a cog, a cove machine. And so if we, if we look at the, the industrial age, what did we say? We said, well, [00:17:00] um, life expectancy was pretty short, kind of, uh, 30 to 50 years, um, in most advanced countries in the world.

[00:17:07] Um, and how do we, how do we increase, increase our health? And so some very, very conscious people actually designed a system, a financial system, in order for that to happen. And it included things like interest rates. Um, but the externalities of that, according to Peter's research, are two things. Um, one is extraction of people, extraction of the resource of people.

[00:17:30] In other words, led to the idea of the cog in the wheel. And the second is the extraction of raw materials. And those two externalities, at the beginning, they were okay, because if you look at the numbers, the numbers are incredible that life expectancy went up and quality of life went up. E extraordinarily.

[00:17:49] Um, and num, those numbers don't lie. It's not like somebody's faked those numbers. I was looking at the work by hands roling the mind gap. You can go, go and see it, mind gapper.org. Um, [00:18:00] incredible. It literally shows how you increase the amount of earning and the life expectancy increases. In other words, there is a direct correlation between those two, right?

[00:18:10] And yet that system also divided us. So it was a system of silos. Um, think of the traditional factory and even a factory today it divides things down into silos. And so that was the system two 50 years ago. And there's some organizations that still follow it today, the un not far from where you and I are sitting right now.

[00:18:29] You know, it follows a silo-based mentality. Governments, they follow a, a silo-based mentality. Education, you know, in, in class we get taught maths very separate from science, and that's very separate from, you know, art and, and languages. And yet today when we look at the challenges we face there, They're horizontal challenges, not vertical challenges.

[00:18:51] Right. And so that, that kind of model started to evolve. Um, and about a hundred years ago, it evolved from the silo based system, uh, which we call the [00:19:00] control system into the, the, the compete system when compete system, not just vertical lines. You add in the horizontal lines. So you see this in big business now, everything divided from, you know, the, the factory line into departments and teams.

[00:19:18] Mm-hmm. And you, you kind of had groupings in organizations. And then what we started to see about 20, 30 years ago is, is a kind of emergence, um, of something which can be traced back way before this, but the, the role of the individual in the organization, um, and the philosophy shifted and the philosophy shifted from, from over here in this model, the control and the compete model.

[00:19:42] It was all about what was good for the organization, was good for the individual. It's a very paternalistic top down. And this one started to become a little bit more feminine. It said, well, actually what's good for the individual is good for the organization. We started to see that in Silicon Valley. So, you know, the growth of Silicon Valley, um, [00:20:00] w was predicated on the idea of giving people time to do what they were passionate about.

[00:20:05] Think, think of Google. They said one day a week, 20% of your time, you can do whatever you're passionate about. And that led to Gmail and Google Maps and Google Calendar, and 50% of the innovation and AdWords, 50% of the innovation from Google came from that 20% time. And yet, what we are getting to see now, 20, 30 years into, you know, the, the massive rise of the internet is the limits of that system.

[00:20:33] And, and a new system has been emerging for, uh, 20, 30 years. Um, Behind the scenes. And what we're now seeing is these systems, which are all a variant, a different flavored, you know, vanilla, chocolate, strawberry, let's say. And we're now seeing that actually ice cream isn't the answer. Um, [00:21:00]

[00:21:00] Sarah: well I'm gonna interrupt you there then.

[00:21:02] So if we continue this ice cream analogy, what is the answer though? Um, and also what does dad have to do with our money story?

[00:21:15] Alexander: Yeah, great question. Um, well, I, I'm at risk of course, continuing the analogy and saying, well, we all get fat and get addicted to

[00:21:24] Sarah: That's true. And if you, if, if you continue there, it's like, well, money makes you fat.

[00:21:30] You know, it's like fat in terms of like too much.

[00:21:34] Alexander: Well look exactly, and, and you, you are spot on because. What, what is really happening? Where is the money in the world? Mm-hmm. Well, it's in these three systems. So it's, it's in government bonds, it's in government treasury, it's in big business and it's in Silicon Valley.

[00:21:53] And more money has been printed in the last 10 years than has ever been in existence [00:22:00] in the entire history of humankind. And 40% of that wealth, 40% of the world's wealth is owned by 10 men. Um, and I used to be able to get even more of my high horse in this and say 10 white men, but actually there are now two Indian gentlemen who are in the top 10 men.

[00:22:19] Um, and despite that, all the other organizations in the top 10 were founded in Silicon Valley. So you've got this, you've got this lake, if you like, of wealth, and it sits. In these three systems, think of a dam, right? And you know, behind the dam you have, you have a lake and it, and it's, and it's actually held here.

[00:22:41] Mm-hmm. And it's, it's being hoarded, right? Um, and, and the money is not flowing right. It's not flowing out of the dam. It's, it's jammed behind the dam. And that isn't very natural. Dams are [00:23:00] not natural things. You know, there are no natural dams in nature. There's no hoarding in nature. There's nothing in nature that actually hoards anything.

[00:23:07] If you look in, okay, so bears hibernate, squirrels hibernate, but what they do is they store the food that they need to get through the winter. That's not hoarding, right? Storing is, okay, I'm gonna just keep enough that I need with me. Uh, and, and as nomads, we did the same. We, we just carried what we needed at that moment.

[00:23:29] If you've ever, ever been backpacking, You know, the first day you go backpack and you're like, oh, damn, I was wondering whether I could swear that, uh, I'll, I've bought in like stuff, I don't need all this stuff. So then you kind of start throwing away stuff, right? And then you, you thin down your rug sucking like, this is what I need, this is all I need.

[00:23:51] Sarah: So yeah. You're, you're saying basically the, the money is all held in behind that dam. The question I guess I have is [00:24:00] like, well, what do we, the people, um, what can we do as the people? Um, because you started to talk about this journey, right? And you showed, basically showed us history. So the question is, um, is the, is this history a linear path and things just kept, keep going worse and worse, or?

[00:24:27] And I think, uh, I remember from the webinar, of course, it's not a linear path. Uh, it, it it's this shape of, um, the, the the figure eight, um, and the infinity sign. So tell us about the return of Yeah. Uh, you know, how, how it's gonna change, basically.

[00:24:48] Alexander: Yeah. Well, it, it looks like it's linear. It, it really does.

[00:24:51] It does. It looks like we're heading, heading towards complete collapse. And

[00:24:54] Sarah: right now, uh, you know, most people are gonna tell you, well, Alexander, I don't know, [00:25:00] but right now it doesn't look like there's any return.

[00:25:03] Alexander: Yeah. Yeah. It doesn't look good. I mean, you know, we are recording this, aren't we? Um, just after, you know, the second, uh, valley Bank has just collapsed, um, we're recording at the same time as, um, UBS is just made an offer to buy credit Suis.

[00:25:19] Right. Um, we're recording at a time that. Uh, the Economist is saying that there's a hundred billion dollars in the US banking system missing. Wow. But that's, that's, um, an unwanted gap. And you know, I remember back in 2007, 2008, you know, the beginning of the financial crisis, um, and Lima's Brothers collapsing.

[00:25:40] And, and I'm sure you do as well. And it kind of feels like we're, we're at a similar time. And yet I am less concerned about it than ever. And some people, you know, watching like, what you crazy? I'm like, no, actually thi this is, this is absolutely what is being called, uh, forward. [00:26:00] And so there is a world beyond this.

[00:26:03] Um, and in fact it's incredibly exciting and amazing world. And everyone says, oh, the system's gonna collapse in Ajara Diamond's book. If you've ever read that about civilization collapse, uh, the whole thing is gonna fall down. Well, maybe, um, The dam actually, there are people standing on both sides of the dam.

[00:26:25] So let's take it from the, the global to the specific. Let's take it from, from, you know, what's happening at a societal level and let's, let's focus it on an individual level because this one

[00:26:37] Sarah: you are talking about. That's a great idea. Mm-hmm. Because I was just gonna say that cuz it's a bit out there, right?

[00:26:43] And it's like, okay, it would be great if we can talk about, well, what does that mean to us? So yeah, take us there.

[00:26:50] Alexander: Mm-hmm. So some of us are standing on this side of the dam and we've got big fat ca bank accounts and we're like, I'm scared of spending my [00:27:00] money because the collapse, you know, the collapse is coming.

[00:27:04] If I read the, if I read the the papers, watch the news, read the Economist or whoever, the system's about to collapse. So I need to look after my money. In other words. We are hoarding more because we're, we're afraid. And then there are people on the other side of the dam who are, who are kind of looking at the dam going, oh, there's no money coming to me.

[00:27:29] And so some of us, you know, some of us are on this side of the dam and we're like, the river's dried up. There's, there's a drought, there's no money flowing to me. Um, how do I, how do I avoid this? Well, maybe I need to climb back up and, and get this side and go back into this world. Maybe I need to go back into the world of business and get a job and just stop trying to create this new system, whatever this new system is.

[00:27:58] Um, [00:28:00] and then those of us who are in it are like, am I gonna lose my job? So we've got these kind of two different mentalities going on and it, Peter puts it like this. There are someone, us who are unconsciously. Pushing money away, and some of us who are running after money unconsciously, so let me kind of unbundle that.

[00:28:18] Mm-hmm. You can actually see this in your own life. Like either money's flowing, uh, there's money in your bank account or there's not money in your bank, in your bank account. You, you can literally look at it and you could diagnose what's going on by the health of your bank account. Now the secret here is about flow and you mentioned that this is an infinite loop.

[00:28:40] The figure of eight turn on its side, it's actually an infinite loop. And the secret is very simple. The dam is actually a belief system held in mind. The dam is actually in our mind and it's an unconscious thing. You're like, no, no, no. It really exists. Like [00:29:00] 40% of the world's wealth help help buy 10 people.

[00:29:02] They keep, you can't deny that you know that the money is all in here and it's not here. Well, actually that's not true because there are people over here I know. And we could talk about at length. And they have all the money they need flowing through them and flowing through their bank accounts, and they genuinely are creating a new world.

[00:29:21] So what is the difference between those people and, and you and I now, why is the money flowing through their bank accounts and not through all of our bank accounts? And why is the money stuck here? And actually what we find is that most of us have part of ourselves here and part of ourselves here. So in fact, we're doing a little bit of both all the time.

[00:29:45] We're, we're kind of hoarding onto the money that does come in, um, because we're afraid of the drought and we're looking at the money saying, when is the money gonna flow to us? And so the, a lot of the work we do is about helping people to break down [00:30:00] this, literally this mental barrier, this mental dam, um, so that the money flows again.

[00:30:09] And so that ultimately prosperity flows, um, and the natural design of, of nature is everything in flow. Mm-hmm. It, it's not building downs, it's not building restrictions.

[00:30:24] Sarah: Yes. I, I hear you Alexander, but my rational mind is still has a lot of questions because you just went through explaining, you know, the kind of system we are in right now.

[00:30:39] Um, and you know that 10 men basically own 40% of the wealth and they are not the ones that I would say represent the feminine energy or even like dual energy. They're the patriarchical, um, kind of not the nicest people on [00:31:00] earth, I would say. And I don't care that they own, uh, that much. So the question is if you're saying, okay, it's just in our mind, well, it's not, it's a reality.

[00:31:11] And so the, the thing is, what I want you to, um, talk about is, you know, kind of this concept of owning the masculine energy Yes. As well. And probably more like where we're headed, because clearly right now it's not the case, you know? Yes. Like, we're not at this point yet where we're money flows to everyone.

[00:31:37] It's just Yes. You just showed it yourself. So Yes. Take us to, to owning these both energies and, and what, what that could look like.

[00:31:47] Alexander: Look, that's such a good question. Um, and brilliantly put, and just to be clear, Um, I'm not saying that that the 10 white men or the eight white men and two Indian [00:32:00] men are in our mind.

[00:32:01] I'm saying the dam is in our mind, right? Yes. Right. So the dam is what is in our mind. Mm-hmm. Which is blocking the flow. And you mentioned going into the fem energy. So let's look at it from this perspective. Yeah. Because it's easier to look from down here, looking up at the down. But if we go all the way into the feminine energy over here, we are not separate from the whole.

[00:32:29] We are part of mother nature. We are, we are part of it. We are an integral part of it. We're not separate from it. The separation only happens in mind. So the only part of ourselves that can sense the separation is our mind, but our essence, whatever we call it, is not separate from the whole. It's an integral part of the whole.

[00:32:52] Right. So if we look at it from this perspective, and then we look at these eight white men and two Indian [00:33:00] gentlemen, and we talk about the, the patriarchy as you just did. And then we, we have all this kind of stuff coming up inside ourselves and we're like, I really don't like those people. That she's the person in that system that you like the least think of that person, that leader, that that individual in that system.

[00:33:22] Whether he's an entrepreneur, I'm gonna say he, because undoubtedly it's a man in, in a, in a right. So probably a, uh, a business leader, maybe a politician, but just bring to mind that person. It doesn't have to be, uh, in North America. It could be, it could be somewhere in Europe, it could be, it could be somewhere in Russia.

[00:33:43] It could be somewhere in. Um, in the East, right? So just bring to mind that person, and then think of the, the, the thing that you like least about that person. What trait do you like least about that person? And is it, is it, it's, is it corruption? Is it, is it [00:34:00] bullying? Is it misogyny? Is it lying? Is it cheating?

[00:34:03] Is it manipulating? Is it bullying? What is, what is it all? What is that trait All above? Yeah. Okay. All of the above. Right? And you can write a long, long list, right? Here's the scary thing. When you look at it from the feminine energy that is part of us. If we are part of the whole, they are also part of the whole, and they are part of us.

[00:34:28] And this is a horrible, horrible thing, a horrible realization because mm-hmm. You're suddenly like, oh shit. What? Really? No, no, no, no. Because the mine will then go, no, no, no. That's ridiculous. I've done my work. I've done my own work. I, I, that's, that's how I got here. Don't be so ridiculous. I, I worked at my purpose five years ago, 10 years ago.

[00:34:46] I've been doing spiritual development work. I've been doing personal development work. I've been doing all this work for the last 15, 20 years. My whole life has been dedicated to this work. Don't be so ridiculous as part of me stuck over here. Well, if we are on the planet right now, the bad news [00:35:00] is there is, there is an aspect of us that is holding this system in place, that's holding this dam here.

[00:35:08] Mm-hmm. This dam in our mind. So what can we do about it? And this is where you're absolutely spot on, that actually we need to re-embrace this masculine energy over here. And, and, you know, Carl Young talked about this idea of the shadow. You know, what's held in the shadow. What's held in the collective consciousness of the planet right now is primarily masculinity.

[00:35:35] Cuz this isn't been going on for 250 years. It's been going on for minimum 5,000 years, probably 10,000 years probably. You can trace it all the way back to the moment that, um, well, 5,000 years plus civilization in Suma, where we started to create hierarchies in cigarettes and money and all these things, or 10,000 years.

[00:35:54] The moment that we settled down and we said, actually, we can cultivate crops and we can, we can [00:36:00] domestic animals, in other words, with a little bit above nature. Or you could trace it back 40,000 years and say, actually it was the moment that the prefrontal cortex, you know, mutated and gave us consciousness and the moment that the larynx gave us the ability to talk.

[00:36:14] So each of these moments are kind of moments of separation along this journey. And now here we are at this, at this moment in history right now, the most amazing moment possibly ever in human history to be alive right now. And, and most of us still have this, they'll have this wall. The wall will dissolve.

[00:36:36] It will, it's inevitable for some of us, and those of us who do will just go on this infinite cycle within this life. And for those of us who don't, will go on this cycle, not on this slide. Yeah,

[00:36:54] Sarah: I like that. Um, I think, so you, you [00:37:00] kind of talked about the masculine energy and embracing that, um, I think in your book, but also in the webinar.

[00:37:07] He also talk about the ego, right? And it's, um, it's part of that, those shadows, um, that, that we need to look at. And in some of the self-help, more self-development, uh, personal development, uh, um, things you hear while you just need to like go of the ego and you know, that's how you're coming to this feminine energy.

[00:37:32] You instead say, well, don't let go of it. Uh, look at it and embrace it and, and, and, and yeah, commune with it in a way, right? And I think that's exactly what's happening now as well. Um, in, in on the bigger, um, scheme is all of that ego stuff is coming up and. And we're, yeah, we're having to look at it as a [00:38:00] society and, you know, the big, um, kind of, um, people that we talked about with all the wealth.

[00:38:06] Well, that's really coming up for them, uh, specifically right now. And, and so what you're saying is not completely let go of it, but take I guess the good things from the ego with you so that you can then apply those. Let, let's kind of bring it to a business owner level because li my listeners are, are entrepreneurs, right?

[00:38:30] And I do feel like a lot of, uh, you know, I'm talking to heart-centered entrepreneurs, so already that kind of says, well, there are a lot in the feminine energy, uh, which is great, right? Which is exactly what we need, uh, more of, so we're on this pathway back to the feminine energy. And what you are saying, and I'm saying it as well in different words because I talk about the doing and the being, um, the yin and the [00:39:00] yang, right?

[00:39:00] We need both energies to be an entrepreneur and to, you know, stay ground and, and, and claim our worth. And, and, and yeah, do sell Right to sell. We need, uh, some of that, um, masculine energy as well. So yeah, tell us a bit more about the ego and, and what, what good parts are in the ego, right. That we can bring back to, to business.

[00:39:26] Oh,

[00:39:26] Alexander: beautiful. Great question. Um, well let, let's, let's take this model actually, and, and flip it up, right? So this, this figure of a, and let's flip it this way and, ok. So now

[00:39:37] Sarah: let's, now standing straight,

[00:39:38] Alexander: it's now standing straight, right? Yeah. And the base is the feminine and, and the, the top is, is the masculine.

[00:39:45] Mm-hmm. And now let's imagine that's a tree. Right? Mm-hmm. And this is your tree and your, your business. Mm-hmm. And what you wanna do is you want to attract more trees into your forest, more trees into your community is [00:40:00] right. And the bigger, the bigger your forest grows, the more sustainable it becomes. So trees that grow in forest live far longer than trees that, um, that are isolated on their own, on hilltops.

[00:40:13] So let's, let's assume that what you're trying to do is, is build a forest. A sustainable forest doesn't have to be the biggest forest in the world, but it's a sustainable forest. It's a heart-centered forest center. At the heart of this forest is the mother tree, your tree. Now if you think about that forest, and let's say, you know, it's, it's currently a cops or maybe it's a wood, but actually the potential is to grow to a forest.

[00:40:36] Or maybe you are just starting out and you've literally just sewed the seed and it's, it's a seedling or a sapling. But you know, you know the potential of it is not just to grow into a tree. It's actually to grow into a forest. And of course what you go is do is you go through growing pain. So let's see if yours are sapling, you may be blown away, away, you know, around by the wind.

[00:40:57] And what we often focus on is we try [00:41:00] and, you know, we try and grow the tree, right? You imagine this like you're a little seedling and you're, you're like, grow faster and you're like, let, you're trying to pull this more, more

[00:41:08] Sarah: clients, more,

[00:41:09] Alexander: yeah. More clients. More, more, more, more grow this way. Mm-hmm. And, and of course that doesn't work.

[00:41:13] You'll literally just pull the seedling outta the ground or you'll pull the sapling outta the ground. Mm-hmm. So what stops you from doing this is, is the roots. And in fact, the height of the tree is dependent on the depth of the roots. Right? And don't worry, I'm gonna get to, to this thing about the ego, right?

[00:41:28] Um, so let's assume that the roots is the feminine, the roots is in, is in connection with all of it. What, what we call the purpose. And that the, the tree is your mission. This is what you're growing towards and you want all the other trees to grow towards this, towards this mission. And that creates a microclimate underneath which sustains life because it's not too hot, it's not too cold.

[00:41:52] It helps the, um, the, to conserve the water that all the trees need, the nutrients that all the trees need, the minerals [00:42:00] that all the trees need. And then they share this underneath. So the height of the tree is dependent on the depths of the roots. The sustainability of the forest is dependent on the consistency of the canopy, but what stops the roots from growing deeper are rocks.

[00:42:18] Now, most people would tell you to remove rocks. When you see a block, you remove the block. When you see the dam, you take the dam out.

[00:42:29] But what if the rocks had helped you to get here? See, if you were to remove all the rocks under a forest, the trees would become unstable. Mm-hmm. And then they'd fall over. But actually if, if the roots wrap around the rocks, then the tree becomes more stable. Yeah. And the whole forest becomes more stable.

[00:42:53] Sarah: It reminds me of what we just said before, recording, no pain, no gain. Right? The rocks are the pain [00:43:00] here. The rocks are the dark nights of the soul. Um, so

[00:43:04] Alexander: yeah. Yeah. Beautiful. And in our research we've identified all different types of, of pain. Pain around money, which we've just been talking about. We're either mentally hoarding it or we are mentally, um, you know, we're in a scarcity mindset.

[00:43:23] Um, so we're pushing it away mentally or we're running after it power, relationship to power. So either we're standing at the top of the dam or we're standing at the bottom of the dam. And in order for somebody to be standing at the top, there has to be somebody standing at the door. In other words, in order for you to have, um, power over somebody, somebody unconsciously has to accept to have power over them.

[00:43:46] Right. Oras, my partner, Jean Plip, puts it, um, obedience is the key to power. Mm-hmm. The third rock that we look at is, is love, because most of us were brought up in a world of fairy tales, Grims fairy [00:44:00] tales where, you know, the, the, the prince and the princess lived happily ever after. Uh, which implies that you are happy every after when you find your soulmate.

[00:44:09] And so we've reinterpreted that, that modern myth is you can only be happy when you find your soulmate, which implies that love is outside of you. And of course, those of us who've done personal development work and a lot of it know that actually it's inside of us. And yet there's so remnants of that old model because it's so deeply embedded in society.

[00:44:29] Mm-hmm. And then the fourth area is time. Um, that we, we constantly perceive we are running out of time and we've got to do things by this time. Um, and so these are, these are the four rocks or we procrastinate and these are the four rocks that we find underground. And what we've explored and examined is how you can embrace these different rocks.

[00:44:56] Because in them is first of all the secret of how you [00:45:00] got here. Your tree grew, you grew cause the rock was there. And if you really embrace it consciously, and this is the difference, most of us are, uh, kind of embracing or resisting it unconsciously. And because we're embracing it unconsciously, we're not really embracing it.

[00:45:21] We're pushing away from it. So if you take a, you know, you mentioned being very practical in business, let's say. Um, we are unconsciously pushing money, right? Let's come back to money. We are running a program around money. So we think money is bad, or money is our security, or money is our freedom. Um, and that, uh, in Carl's words is a projection.

[00:45:51] So we're not seeing money as money. We're seeing money as a vehicle to something freedom or [00:46:00] away from something corruption. And when we actually embrace the freedom with or without money, we actually become truly free. Mm-hmm.

[00:46:14] Sarah: But we can't, I think, I think in the book, yeah. Go on. Sorry. Yeah. I think in the book you mentioned surrender.

[00:46:21] Right? And that I think is a big piece of that journey is to, you know, just surrender to. The rocks. And, and does that mean surrender to the ego as well? Because we started this track with the ego. So does that mean surrender to your ego, uh, as well?

[00:46:43] Alexander: Yeah, great question. Um, I would say more surrender to the feminine.

[00:46:48] Hmm. But in the surrender, what most of us forget is that the feminine to take the sea behind me. Right. [00:47:00] Um, but the canvas here, so this is a painting, it's a painting of, of, uh, M Blanc, um, painted a few years ago in black. And, um, it was pretty windy up there. Like it's what, 3000 meters? So 9,000 feet. Um, and it's pretty windy.

[00:47:18] And you know, when the canvas is moving, it's very difficult for the feminine to feel like, uh, She can come out and play. So the feminine creates, mother nature creates, um, the divine. You know, a birth is normally through the feminine form, like, you know, new, new life comes onto the planet through the feminine form.

[00:47:39] And so the, the, when the canvas is held, the feminine can come out to play. So the masculine is, is the easel and it's holding. And normally I tie with string from the corner so that the, the canvas is completely held. And if the canvas is held, then the feminine has the confidence to come out to play [00:48:00] so that the, the, the feminine aspect of this needs the masculine at a certain level of awareness, right?

[00:48:09] It needs to be held in that way. And that's where most of us are right now. And most of us have, have observed masters and we're like, you know, look, look at Nelson Mandela or, or Mother Teresa, and we observe no ego, you know, look at, look at Eckhart. No ego. we're like, there's no ego there. Ego's gone. So we look at it and we go, oh, I know what I need to do.

[00:48:33] I need to get rid of the ego. I need to get rid of the rocks. Right? But actually, that's like trying to climb a ladder by removing the runts. Mm-hmm. So if when you get to the top of the ladder, you don't need the ladder, but in order to get to the top of ladder, you needed the rungs in the ladder. So most of us look at that state and we think, well, what I need to do is I need to remove the ego in order to reach the top [00:49:00] of my mountain.

[00:49:01] Actually, it's the inverse. The rungs of the ladder are embracing every aspect of ego and finding the gold in the rock, cuz there's gold in each of these rocks. And when you realize there's a benefit in, I dunno, security. And you find the conscious benefit in that, the gold dust in that you climb up a run and then you keep doing this.

[00:49:27] It's, it's a, it's a very long ladder, by the way, really, really long ladder, you know? And like you, you can go on and on and on and on and on. Like, it's, it, it feels like it's infinite, right? Um, but at a certain point, you, you reach the top of the mountain, you're like, oh my God, I'm here. Then you don't need the ladder, but you do need the ladder to help other people get to the top of the mountain.

[00:49:52] So this is when you build ladders for other people, right?

[00:49:55] Sarah: So once you build your ladder, you can then help other people. Yeah. Yeah. [00:50:00] I, I see how you, yeah. How you tie in the, the rocks and the ego and that. The point is not to let go of the ego, but to embrace it. Because we need both of these energies, right?

[00:50:15] Yes. Um, Maybe just to kind of bring it down again to the level of, uh, the individual, the entrepreneur. Um, what I see a lot in, um, uh, the entrepreneurs that I work with is that, um, and, and I think in your book, you call it the woowoo Mountain, right? And I have my WOOWOO prompts in, in, in the marketing, like we're human book.

[00:50:39] So I think it's very much needed today that we can go into the woo and that we can, you know, embrace our feminine energy. But you and I both make the point also to say yes. And you do also need, uh, the masculine energy, um, to [00:51:00] build a business. There's just certain things, even in marketing, you know, you need to look at your numbers, like all of these kind of left brain things, those are the masculine energy, and we need those for building businesses, and we need those even for, um, Yeah.

[00:51:17] It, it's a structure, like you said, the easel is the structure. It's kind of like, um, we need both. We need the roots, which you said was the feminine, and then we need some kind of system or, or structure. Um, I love that. Yeah. Thanks so much for, for taking on us on that journey. What I'm curious, uh, kind of to wrap up, what I'm curious, um, about is, is, is this return and.

[00:51:45] You know, we, we kind of briefly touched upon it, the, the communion. Um, what you, um, mentioned also is the, you know, the, these different, um, business models. So we started with, uh, [00:52:00] industrial Revolution. Now we're kind of still in the big corporate systems. So where is this going? Uh, what do you see, uh, as a new paradigm in terms of business and, um, yeah, humans.

[00:52:16] How, how are we

[00:52:17] Alexander: evolving? Yeah, so the, the, the big leap beyond the dam, um, if we, if we kind of put the tree back and actually the other way around and, um, we have the infinite loop, then the big leap beyond, um, the, the dam is, is a leap into what is variously known as as a teal organization. Um, it's a kind of decentralized organization.

[00:52:40] But most people have misunderstood the decentralized organization. Um, and they think we, we go into co creativity and we immediately jump to communion. There is a step in between, there's a rung in the ladder in between this current system, Silicon Valley system, which is still extracting wealth, um, and this new emergence [00:53:00] system before you get to communion.

[00:53:02] So the future is communion, and that's one end of the cycle. And then there's the other. And really what you're looking for is a constant flow between them. So in order for that constant quote to happen, you'd have to reclaim these positives, as you said over here. So what's the positive of the control system?

[00:53:18] Discipline structure. What's the, the positive of the, of the second system? Focus, like steely, focus on, on whatever you call that thing is your mission or the uniqueness. Your promise was the third thing. The third thing is about shifting our mindset. It's about unlocking our mindset and moving towards a mindset where things can grow.

[00:53:39] But the real leap is here. This is the leap. This is the leap that's emergent. And it's, it's like it builds on all of these. We think it's linear, but actually it's like the Russian dolls. So this is an outer Russian doll, and then there's another Russian doll here. And this one, to get to this one, you have to accept all of these [00:54:00] phases.

[00:54:01] And what that means is that it's not co-creation, that's delusional. Wbu Mountain stuff. That it occurs because somebody is holding the space. What my, my partner Peter calls the source, there's an easel there holding the canvas for everyone else. And so there's, there's this famous book by, uh, Fred Lulu.

[00:54:22] Fred Lulu, um, called Reinventing Organization, which kicked up a whole creativity, co creativity movement, and became a cult classic in 2015. And when Peter interviewed Fred, cause he knows him very well, he said, Fred, you only interviewed sources, didn't you? And Fred's like, yes. In other words, he was observing the canvas, but not realizing the role that the sources, the people, the founders of the business were playing as the easel.

[00:54:52] What does that mean? It means. The holding at this level without the, the, the masculine, strong [00:55:00] masculine energy nigro is, is a mapp like this with bubbles inside, without the arms holding the space. Without that discipline, without that focus, without that structure, the whole thing falls into a mess. And I, I launched a company, um, based on the idea of co-creation.

[00:55:18] I was the source of it. I had some incredible partners, really, really impressive people. And it collapsed. We never made any money. There was never any flow in it. So in order to create this system, we have to embrace the shadow of the masculine and the shadow of the masculine is encompassed in the, in the worst of the people who we see running this system.

[00:55:44] And so I am incredibly optimistic, but it's not even optimism. I know, I know that, um, some of us are already doing this. And I see what's been created and it is phenomenal. [00:56:00] Phenomenal what has been created. I mean, I was speaking with my friend Heath yesterday, what Heath is up to, unbelievable. I mean, I can't give any details out at the moment, but you can feel the energy of what he is doing.

[00:56:14] I'll give you one example. So Carrie is 25 years in the un, has created a parallel organization to the UN called United Cities in Google it. She's now the source of a 13 billion fund to realize the SDGs, uh, the sustainable development goals. Her mission is 10,000 cities. By the end of decade, she will do it.

[00:56:34] I know she will. She's operating from that level of awareness. That's just one example. But there are, let's

[00:56:42] Sarah: go back to the, let's go back to the, uh, individuals, um, you know, the entrepreneurs who are listening, cuz that's kind of like a high level example. Um, because I, I do have to say, I'm like, well, here I am always talking about co-creation and collaboration, and you [00:57:00] just come in and say, well, that's not working.

[00:57:02] So what's the alternative then? Because if the ultimate goal is communion, then what's the alternative? If not collaboration?

[00:57:13] Alexander: So collaboration is key, but the key to get to the communion is to appreciate that each of us have a role in that collaboration and each of us are tapping in as a source into something greater, whatever we call that.

[00:57:35] So the collaboration happens because each of us take a marriage. In a marriage, you have two people, and we talk about us as, as a, as a something, but actually each of us are independent, um, beings. And we, we used to say in the old system, we used to say, well, when you find your perfect partner, [00:58:00] you create perfect harmony, the beast with two bags.

[00:58:03] But actually we know that doesn't work because when the person is not there, they miss the other person. Actually, what we're talking about here, true collaboration is this, both individuals become whole, complete and whole. And the dance between those individuals is to help each other become whole. And then what you get, of course, is an infinite loop and freedom in between.

[00:58:25] Mm-hmm. And this is what true collaboration is. So each person sourcing what they're there to source and being really, really clear that one is playing the role of the easel. And holding the space, and the other is doing the creation in there. So it's a nuance of collaboration. It's not saying forget co-creation, forget collaboration.

[00:58:47] It's a nuance to it that integrates the masculine world over here into the emergent world, because again, it's the matri dog. You don't embrace this world. [00:59:00] This world falls apart and it never actually grains the traction that it needs. So that's the distinction. So is it happening? Yes. What, what does practically that mean for an individual operating from this space?

[00:59:14] It means practically actually looking back into the world that you might be in resistance to, and you might have rejected, and not throwing the baby out with the bathwater and seeing the gold dust in that. Um, and then accepting that gold dust, embracing that gold dust, reclaiming the strong summary, you know, that the masculine energy in you, in order to do that holding, knowing that beyond that is communion.

[00:59:41] But you can't miss that rung on the ladder. You miss that rung on the ladder. You don't get to the top of the mountain, the whole thing falls apart, the tree falls over. Yeah.

[00:59:50] Sarah: I, yeah, totally. I, I, I see you, you, you talk so beautifully and I just, I, it feels sometimes I'm kind of like the translator who [01:00:00] brings it down to the level of the, of, um, you know, kind of the ground 11.

[01:00:05] I'm a Capricorn. Uh, and so I'm like, okay, you know, very, there's my daughter straightforward. And, and so in a way I can also make a parallel to my own journey. And, and I know you shared it in your book. Um, About your journey to the Woohoo mountain, right. And the artist and, and all of that. And then from there, coming back to the, yeah.

[01:00:29] To the, the yang energy and, and, and I'm a Capricorn and a cancer rising. So I really have these both things. You know, the very, I call myself the mama bear of the, of the Humane Marketing circle. So I have this cancer energy, uh, that is very feminine, very woowoo, right? But. At the core, I'm at Capricorn, I'm very down to earth and structured and, and so it's almost like I wanted to get rid of those things and rid of the mind, and I'm like, no, no, no, I [01:01:00] have to, I don't be, you know, very meditative and in this state of Woo all the time.

[01:01:05] Um, and yeah, it didn't work. Like, I'm like, no, this, you know, I need both. And that's what we're constantly talking about as well. And in humane marketing, you, you need both the doing and the being. So it's, uh, yeah, beautifully, beautifully said. You have, you have definitely a way with words and, and, and making this, uh, parallels that.

[01:01:26] Yeah. It's just, it's such a journey, right? It's the journey of transformation basically, is what you're, you're talking about. And, and it's a journey of the money journey. But then of course, m you know, everything kind of goes back to money. And, and it's our journey as, as humans and as entrepreneurs.

[01:01:48] Alexander: Yeah.

[01:01:48] Yeah. It's exactly that. It's, it's those two being and doing. Right. And, um, the doing comes from a [01:02:00] state of being, right?

[01:02:02] Sarah: Yeah. Which, which I know you, and that's why we need to start with the being. Right. We do

[01:02:07] Alexander: need to start with the being. We do need to unlock this because we've been in a state of doing the way too long for too long.

[01:02:13] Yeah. When we jump into the being, and it was, it was Einstein who said, let's call this the intuition, this the intellect. He said, um, you know, the, the intellect is a faithful servant, and the intuition is a sacred gift. And if we can understand that it's the gift that uses the intellect, that uses the mind, it's like a tool in the toolbox.

[01:02:42] Mm-hmm. And when it uses it, Actually, you can create whatever you want, but most of the time it is the minds trying to suppress and forget this sacred gift. Yeah. And that really is the, the infinite journey [01:03:00] is realizing the gift, using the tool in order to create, and th this, this, this journey. It's, it's the journey of creation.

[01:03:15] Yeah. It's the journey of humankind. It's, it's any painting, any masterpiece. That's the journey. Mm-hmm.

[01:03:21] Sarah: Yeah. Thanks so much for being here and taking on us on this journey. Uh, Alexander, really appreciate it. Please do share where people, I think you run these webinars, uh, on a regular basis. So I think the best, uh, idea is probably for people to actually, uh, attend this webinar so they, they can see you in action and do share about that and the book and your website

[01:03:48] Alexander: and all of that.

[01:03:50] Yeah, sure. Well, um, we will be running another, uh, webinar on the 20th of April Arthur Prosperity, while we [01:04:00] begin into this little bit more detail. I dunno whether this episode comes up before then or not, but if it does, then great. Sign up and join us. Uh, you can also, uh, find my book, a free chapter of my book on, on my website, uh, Alex Alexander hable.com.

[01:04:15] Um, and then, um, Yeah, there are, there, you know, we're just about to launch a community which you can join. Um, and then we'll have regular, uh, conversations on a monthly basis. And then we run a series of, of retreats, the Masterpiece retreats, which are online and offline, uh, which is up to Japan to, to run a retreat in Kyoto, which I'm pretty excited about.

[01:04:38] We're doing first Men's retreat in May, um, in Morocco, which again, I'm really excited about. We'll be going up to see Kari, who I mentioned, um, earlier in, in Norway. Um, and then we'll be running something in Switzerland in October. Um, and then we do online retreats as well, um, called Masterpiece Tribes, and we're on the 11th Tribe, um, 12th Tribe [01:05:00] will be in June.

[01:05:00] So lots of, lots of amazing things happening. Um, and if any of that speaks to you, then, um, you know, come along, get, get some of the free information. The, the, the, there are lots of videos on the site as well, and you can get lost in the videos and learn as much as you need to. Um, yeah. Thank you for having

[01:05:19] Sarah: me.

[01:05:19] Yeah, wonderful. Thanks so much for being here. I always have one last question and that is what are you grateful for today or this week? You. Thank you. I'm grateful for you too. Thank you. Thanks for creating masterpieces.

[01:05:38] Alexander: Likewise. Thank you for creating your masterpiece. That's what I'm grateful for. Thank Youe marketing.

[01:05:50] Sarah: I hope you enjoyed this conversation, a bit of a different approach to, uh, money and pricing, but ever so important. [01:06:00] In order to find out more about Alexander and his work, please go to alexander dash inch ball.com. Uh, the community can be [email protected], and Alexander also has a podcast called Insights From the at and uh, that is also on his website, alexander inal.com.

[01:06:25] As I said in our conversation, I really enjoyed Alexander's. Called the Masterpiece, and you'll find out also on his website or on Amazon directly. Finally, if you're looking for others who think like you, who are deep thinkers as we demonstrated in this conversation, then why not join us in the Humane Marketing Circle?

[01:06:47] You can find out more at Humane. Dot marketing slash circle. You'll find the show notes of this episode with all the links we mentioned here at Humane [01:07:00] Marketing slash H 16 two. Uh, this beautiful page also contains, uh, links to my free offers, such as my Saturday newsletter, the Humane Business Manifesto, and the free gentle Confidence mini course, as well as my two books, marketing like we're Human and Selling like we're human.

[01:07:23] Uh, just a reminder also that marketing like We're human is now also available in audio format on Audible or anywhere else where you get your audiobooks. Thanks so much for listening and being part of a generation of marketers who cares for yourself, your clients, and the planet. We are change makers before we are marketers, so go be the change you want to see in the world.

[01:07:49] Speak soon.[01:08:00]

Miriam Schulman, my guest today, is an artist, author and host of The Inspiration Place podcast. She's helped thousands of creatives around the world develop their skill sets and create more time and freedom to do what they love. Her signature coaching program, The Artist Incubator, teaches artists go from so-so sales to sold-out collections.

After witnessing 9/11, Miriam abandoned a lucrative hedge fund to become a full-time thriving working artist. Featured in major publications including Forbes, The New York Times, Where Women Create, Art of Man, and Art Journaling magazine. Her artwork has also been featured on NBC's "Parenthood" and the Amazon series "Hunters" with Al Pacino. NOW, Her book with HarperCollins Leadership, Artpreneur, has been released in JANUARY 2023.

In today's episode, Miriam and I talk about:

• The definition of art
• Why creative artists struggle most with marketing
• How embracing your inner weirdo and honoring what comes easy for you
• Why talking about the problem doesn't work for artists
• About Miriam's love for email marketing
• Why art matters
• And so much more

[00:00:00] Sarah: Hello, humane marketers. Welcome back to the Humane Marketing Podcast, the place to be for the generation of marketers that cares. This is a show where we talk about running your business in a way that feels good to you, is aligned with your values, and also resonates with today's conscious customers because it's humane, ethical, and non-pushy.

[00:00:23] I'm Sarah z Croce, your hippie turn business coach for quietly rebellious entrepreneurs and marketing impact by. Mama Bear of the Humane Marketing Circle and renegade author of marketing like we're human and selling like we're human. If after listening to the show for a while, you're ready to move on to the next level and start implementing and would welcome a community of like-minded, quietly rebellious entrepreneurs who discuss with transparency.

[00:00:52] Works and what doesn't work in business, then we'd love to welcome you in our humane marketing circle. If you're picturing your [00:01:00] typical Facebook group, let me paint a new picture for you. This is a closed community of like-minded entrepreneurs from all over the world who come together once per month in a Zoom circle workshop to hold each other accountable and build their business.

[00:01:15] Sustainable way we share with transparency and vulnerability, what works for us and what doesn't work, so that you can figure out what works for you instead of keep throwing spaghetti on the wall and seeing what sticks. Find out more at humane.marketing/circle, and if you prefer one-on-one support from me.

[00:01:37] My humane business Coaching could be just what you need, whether it's for your marketing, sales, general, business building, or help. Idea like writing a book. I'd love to share my brain and my heart with you together with my almost 15 years business experience and help you grow a sustainable business that is joyful and sustainable.

[00:01:58] If you love this [00:02:00] podcast, wait until I show you my mama bear qualities as my one-on-one client can find out [email protected] slash. And finally, if you are a Marketing Impact pioneer and would like to bring Humane Marketing to your organization, have a look at my offers and workshops on my [email protected].

[00:02:31] Hi, friends. Welcome back. Happy Spring. Today's conversation fits under the P of product, and if you're irregular here, as always, you know that I'm organizing the conversations around the seven Ps of the Humane Marketing Mandala. And if you're new here, big warm, welcome. Uh, you probably don't know what I'm talking about, but you can download your one.

[00:02:53] Marketing plan with the humane marketing version of the seven Ps of [00:03:00] [email protected] slash one page. That's the number one and the word page. And this comes with seven email prompts to really help you reflect on these different PS for your business. It's kind of the foundation of your business and your market.

[00:03:17] So today I'm talking to New York based Miriam Schulman about making art your product. I'll tell you more about Miriam in just a second, but first I want to give you an update about the Humane Marketing Circle, our community. Um, I wanna tell you that bringing in in a young community facilitator was one of the best moves I've ever made.

[00:03:40] You know how it is. You have to invest in something in order for it to grow, but investing at the stage where you know the income is just not there yet. It is always scary, but. My gut was telling me, you know, this is the right thing to do and I'm just so excited to [00:04:00] be working with Eddie now, um, who's our community facilitator and, and carer and, uh, net weaver, that's how he, uh, refers, um, to himself as.

[00:04:11] So besides adding a second monthly call that's hosted by three of our ambassadors, we, uh, have also transitioned in January to a new online platform. Uh, it's on Cajabi not Mighty Network, and we're really loving it. It feels like Cajabi is kind. You know, is, is one of us, it feels like us, not perfect, but very playful and kind.

[00:04:39] It's kind of like, I think of it as the little sister of Mighty Networks with big dreams. And so after every call, Eddie, um, is giving us a challenge to complete. So either something that deepens our connection with other members. Because that's a big priority for us, is [00:05:00] that members are interconnected.

[00:05:02] That's the definition of a community, right. So, uh, Eddie helps us with that and puts a challenge up on our, uh, cajabi. We call it our water hole, our place, you know. Kind of nicer image than just a water cooler. So we call it our water hole. Uh, the place where animals in Africa get together in the morning and drink.

[00:05:24] So, um, he puts a challenge up there and helps us, uh, connect with each other. Or it might also be a, a challenge that helps us with our marketing and our. Business. So, um, yeah, if you've been thinking about joining for a while now is really a good time because it's time. In May I'll be doubling the monthly rates.

[00:05:47] Uh, besides the monthly calls and the active online community, you also get one live 90 minute workshop on a marketing or business topic, as well as all the recording. And we will soon [00:06:00] also probably be, be adding a third call per month. So yeah, I feel like stepping into my personal power and it's, it's time to raise the, the rates, but there is still time to join us at the current monthly rate, which is $37 per month.

[00:06:17] So have a look at the details at humane.marketing/circle and also look for the circle inaction link, uh, on that page. On that circle in action page, you'll see some excerpts from our calls and testimonials and all of that, um, kind of real behind the scenes info. Thanks so much for checking that out. All right, Miriam Schulman.

[00:06:44] My guest today is an artist, author, and host of the Inspiration Place podcast. She's helped thousands of creatives around the world develop their skill sets and create more time and freedom to do what they love. Her [00:07:00] signature coaching program, the artist incubator teaches artists to go from so, so sales to sold out collections.

[00:07:09] After witnessing nine 11, Miriam abandoned a lucrative hedge fund to become a full-time thriving working artist featured in major publications including Forbes, the New York Times where women create Art of man and art Journaling. Her artwork has also been featured on NBC's Parenthood ND Amazon Series, hunter Hunters with Al Pacino, and now her book with Harper Collins Leadership Art Printer has been released in January, 2023.

[00:07:42] In this episode, we talk about the definition of art and how art may not just be what we think it is, uh, why creative artists struggle most with marketing and what to do about it, how embracing your inner weirdo [00:08:00] and honoring what comes easy for you. Frees you up and actually lets you do the marketing, uh, that is aligned with you.

[00:08:09] Why talking about the problem doesn't work for artists and what to do instead about Miriam's love for email marketing, why art matters and so much more. So let's dive in and talk to Miriam about making art your product.

[00:08:28] Hey, Miriam, so good to speak to you today. I can't wait for this conversation about art.

[00:08:35] Miriam: Well, thanks so much for having me, Sarah. It's, it's an honor to

[00:08:38] Sarah: be here. Thank you. So I was just, we were just recording an episode for your podcast and, and now, um, you know, I'm on the other side of the mic and I'm excited to Yeah.

[00:08:50] To kind of pick your brain, uh, around art and entrepreneurship because as we just discussed offline, they have a lot to do with each other and it really [00:09:00] depends how you define art. And so I think maybe that's a good place for us to start. Why don't you. Tell our listeners how you define art. Yeah, that's

[00:09:11] Miriam: a, that's a great question.

[00:09:13] Um, so my book is Entrepreneur, but the truth is, in the way we're gonna define art, every entrepreneur is an art preneur and vice versa. So, when I started writing the book, it's not, it was very, it had to be very clear. This is not just for visual. And it's not. And then we made the definition very broad.

[00:09:35] Could be your art, could be writing, it could be um, music, it could be dance, it can be ceramics, it can be fashion. But once you make that definition, definition so broad, your art really is whatever product that you're producing. And so all I'm doing in this book is teaching people who cons. Don't believe that [00:10:00] business lessons apply to them.

[00:10:01] I'm showing them. Mm, yes, they do. But the thing is, there's a lot of people who don't define themselves as artists who maybe look at marketing advice and they're sitting there if their arms crossing, oh, that doesn't work in my industry, or, that doesn't apply to me when actually it does.

[00:10:16] Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. I I I was just gonna say, like, what, when I was thinking, when I, I was preparing for the episode and I'm like, well, art and marketing.

[00:10:27] It's not usually a good marriage, right? People are who are artists, they're like, yeah, that's not for me. Or, or maybe they do wonder, well how do I sell my art? But what they see out there, they always feel like that doesn't apply to me. And so you're saying the same thing. That's what you're seeing usually

[00:10:49] Miriam intro: from artists.

[00:10:50] Why is that? Well, you know what, I, I get a lot of pushback cuz I, I like to say, you know, anybody. With a, who wants this can do it. [00:11:00] Anyone with a dream can do it. And so what the pushback I get is, yeah, but what about talent? Mm-hmm. And here's the truth, Sarah. Marketing trump's talent every single time we've all seen, um, not so good artists.

[00:11:17] Succeed or you know, ones where like, huh, you know, we all seen that. And the same thing is true in, in business marketing is gonna trump every single time. Like the, you know, if you don't, people don't know about you, they can't buy your product or service.

[00:11:34] Sarah: Right. It's, it's that just saying, you know, you stay the best kept secret.

[00:11:39] It's like, yeah, you're really good, but nobody knows about

[00:11:41] Miriam: you. Exactly. Exactly. So, and there's a lot of examples in the art world. So there's this, uh, American artist. Is he, he may not be American. Damien Hurst, is he American or is he from London? Okay. You don't, it doesn't matter cuz you don't know who he is.

[00:11:56] It's fine. Um, he sold [00:12:00] a shark in formaldehyde for like a million dollars. Now is that talent? You know, it's like, I don't think so. So that is just a marketing stunt and people who are creating, um, like NFTs, like there was this guy who made this huge gold cube and put it in, uh, central Park to sell as an N F T.

[00:12:22] Was, is that talent? No. It's a big marketing stunt, right? So,

[00:12:29] Sarah: yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Why do you think then that creative entrepreneurs struggle most with, uh, um, marketing or, or what part of the marketing do they struggle with?

[00:12:42] Miriam: Yeah. A a lot of it is is the mythology for artists in particular. There is that whole idea of they, they're taught you can't sell out or like, you're not a true artist if you are trying to market, which is complete BS because we have a [00:13:00] history going back to Michelangelo, where he was very much interested in the commercial side of things.

[00:13:06] I mean, he's not just pa uh, sculpting and painting whatever he felt like. He didn't wanna paint the Sistine Chapel, but the Pope said, yes you do. Here's the money I'm gonna pay you. So he, he did projects for monetary reasons, so it's not a sellout to create art that's marketable that the, the market wants.

[00:13:26] So that is a big thing that holds people back. But I also see. And Sarah, tell me if you see this too for, for women in particular who are socialized and, and I don't mean only some women are socialized this way. I think all of us women are socialized this way. We're socialized to play small, to not desire money, sex and power.

[00:13:50] I think it's, that's probably more true in the US with the, because of the tradition of Puritanism, this is how our country was founded by. Though [00:14:00] that very conservative religion, so Right. Um, not to play small, and whether you're looking at images of thin women, the, the message that women are getting is not to take up space.

[00:14:13] Mm-hmm. And that it's wrong to want money. So that plays a significant role because people will continue to sabotage themselves if they don't believe that it's okay. To desire money and success and to play role a bit a role and be visible and be big. So that is gonna sabotage people if they're trying to stay quiet and small when they have, and, and also be visible at the same time.

[00:14:43] It just, they don't work together.

[00:14:45] Sarah: Yeah, I hear you. That I'm sure there's a, there's something on that belief level, right? Um, I also think it's like, so. Right. Like I often talk about the right brain and the left brain. So I really [00:15:00] also think like creative's brains are wired differently and they're, um, you know, there's so much in the creativity that when they are then seeing, uh, you know, marketing advice that is very structured and follow steps and, and they're like, this is how you do it.

[00:15:19] That's when they get turned off. They're like, no, but I wanna. Me, I just wanna, you know, it's kind of like almost rebellious, maybe. Artists seem to be more

[00:15:29] Miriam: rebellious in a way. Yeah, I I, I can see why you would say that. I think for, for, at least for me personally, I found a lot of the marketing advice out there, a turnoff, because it was coming f like it was very bro marketer.

[00:15:43] It was like, okay. Right. Exactly. You know, these very. Um, hustle style, whereas the best marketing in the world is being your true, authentic sell, right?

[00:15:54] Sarah: Yeah. So not in your book, you have this line, embrace your inner weirdo, right? [00:16:00] Yeah. So tell us more about that. What you, what you mean by that. Okay,

[00:16:04] Miriam: so the word weird, the original definition comes from Scotland, and it meant fate or destiny.

[00:16:11] And then you may recall in Macbeth there were the three witches who were called the weird sisters. So then the meaning meant something associated more with faith, the supernatural. And as time went on and the supernatural became vilified, The word weird took on that negative connotation. So to be weird is really to embrace your destiny.

[00:16:39] To embrace what's really special about you. So I, I say love your inner weirdo and be a weirdo in the most affectionate way possible.

[00:16:48] Sarah: Hmm, yeah. You also say, um, like one of the examples you mentioned in that chapter is share your values and. You know, that's a [00:17:00] huge part of humane marketing as well. It's like, share your worldview.

[00:17:04] Share what matters to you. People don't typically see that as marketing. They always think, maybe especially artists, they think, oh, you have to talk about, you know, this art piece or this book. I've written a book and now I have to constantly talk about this book. Not true. If you share your worldview and your values, that is part of your marketing.

[00:17:28] Miriam: Oh, for sure. So there are a lot of artists who are afraid of speaking out. So I live in the US we have very divisive politics, and they're worried of losing business if they have. One point of view and they express a view that me, other people might get them upset. So for me, I'm very progressive. I have a lot of liberal views.

[00:17:55] I'm not worried about alienating people who are [00:18:00] conservative. Yeah, I may alienate some people. There are some diehard conservatives though, who like I've had some words with and they're still following me. But people respect that more. And what happens if you don't share your values, they're gonna assume.

[00:18:15] So right before we hit record, Sarah was asking me, so you just had an election, what do you think? And I don't know if you were like trying to see where I was at on that political

[00:18:25] Sarah: No, I knew from reading the book, I knew. Okay, right.

[00:18:27] Miriam: You read my book. But, but let's pretend you didn't now. And I said, oh, I, you know, and I gave a very witchy, rashy response.

[00:18:34] You, you may as assume, you might assume that I don't care about politics when, meanwhile, I care very deeply about the unraveling of, of women's rights and what I see happening. So it's important to dive deep into that. I was very impressed Billy Eilish, um, went on record, uh, on Instagram, telling people to vote and why this was important.

[00:18:58] Yeah. Other people [00:19:00] say vote, but only if you agree with me. You know? But, uh, yeah, it's, it's, it's really nice to see some people who have big platforms not being afraid of alienating people and the ones who are very big on all parts of the political spectrum. Are not afraid of being polarizing because you can love me or hate me, but there is, when you're in business, there is no money in the middle, and when you're trying to please everyone, you're just striving for mediocrity.

[00:19:34] Right.

[00:19:35] Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. It's so interesting. Um, I just, I, I follow Guy Kawasaki, uh, you see who he is. Um, he's, he's kind of the, you know, past Apple and then Canva. Um, he's just a spokesperson now, pretty much. And he just really shares his political views and just, I think before the elections he put, he's active on LinkedIn or that's [00:20:00] where I see him.

[00:20:00] And he, he was saying, you know, Uh, your influencers, what are they saying right now? Are they saying, you know, go vote and, you know, here's what's really happening because go vote. That's kind of an easy out as well, because that doesn't really share your worldview. That's correct. Um, so he was, you know, being more specific, um, or so, so artie's influencers telling you who to vote for and why it.

[00:20:27] Or are they telling you the latest car they bought or you know, which mansion they're staying at and all of that kind of stuff that we're so used to from the bro influencers. Right? Yeah. And I thought that made a lot of sense. That's exactly the worldview that we're interested in and we're not so interested in, you know, the latest car you bought and all of.

[00:20:49] Miriam: Yeah. Yeah. And there's actually a very significant, um, population that the data shows, they're called the conscious consumers that they do shop with. They do vote with [00:21:00] their pocketbooks. Of course. Yeah. So they're checking, you know, you know, and they don't all have the same causes that they care about. You know, some people care more about sustainability of a brand when they're shopping, some care more.

[00:21:12] Inclusion. I know that when I receive a clothing catalog, if it's all white women, I throw it out now like I'm, you know, they don't care enough to show, have diversity in the catalog. Um, I, I don't shop there. So there is a, a, a large percentage of people who. This is their values matter. And what matters is that the brands are doing it in an authentic way.

[00:21:36] Not like, oh, so this is gay Pride week and here's your rainbow smoothie, or whatever, because they people can see through that. It's how you're showing up all year long. That's gonna matter.

[00:21:47] Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. And the, the reason again, we're bringing this up is, Oftentimes creatives don't realize that that's part of marketing.

[00:21:57] Um, that's right. Yeah. And it's, it's not just the, [00:22:00] you know, follow these three steps to market your art. It's, it, it, it's. A whole package. That's the other thing that you mentioned in your book, um, is honor What Comes Easy for You. And I love that. That's kind of like my motto for life, right? Um, and so you have a, a funny gardening story in there.

[00:22:19] Uh, would you mind sharing that? I think that's such a good example of, of how that works. Yes, yes.

[00:22:25] Miriam: Okay. So I, I live in New York City. I'm staring at a brick wall right now, but we do have a, a farmhouse two hours away. It's in the Catskills in New York. And my husband started a garden, um, when we first moved there, and we, he went to the nursery and he spent.

[00:22:42] Oh, I don't know, a couple hundred dollars on plants, like these starter plants. And then when we were at the counter, he just grabbed a couple of seed packets. So the seed packets, we just scattered in the plants. You know, it made a mess in the back of my car with the dirt. I wasn't happy about [00:23:00] that. And we spent a good back breaking afternoon, putting in these starter plants.

[00:23:07] Well, a couple, whatever, whatever the time span was later. The seeds were doing really well. It was like Jack and the bean sprout, like all these, like these stalk came up and we had beautiful string beads. The starter plants on the other hands, like all the bugs ate them. So it was like, here's a situation where.

[00:23:27] The seed packets were the easy way to go and they actually were the easier the, the best result, whereas this harder, more expensive thing didn't work out as good for as well for us. But we do this a lot in our business where we try to make things so hard and we have something that comes easy for us and we think that couldn't be as valuable.

[00:23:46] Right.

[00:23:47] Sarah: Yeah. I just love that story, I guess, because I, I also, I'm not a big fan of gardening, but my husband is, and yeah, I would just totally throw some seeds

[00:23:56] Miriam: out there. That's right. Well, it was like the sunflowers came from seeds. [00:24:00] The green beans came from seeds. Um, we tried something else this year. I forget what it was, and it was like, yay

[00:24:06] Sarah: seeds.

[00:24:07] Yeah, exactly. And it's funny how we often. You know, it's kind of a metaphor. Plant a seed, and I love that also for marketing, where you might just have a conversation and you're not actually pushing it and trying to sell them something, but in your head, you know, I just planted a seed, and this might turn into something bigger that you weren't even expecting.

[00:24:33] I love the metaphor of seeds as well, so yeah, that's a beautiful metaphor

[00:24:38] Miriam: that you, the way you just

[00:24:39] Sarah: used it. Yeah. Yeah. Um, another thing that I know that you love is email marketing. So it seems like you really built your business based on email marketing, so, Maybe you, because right now I feel like people are still understanding.

[00:24:57] Okay. Yes. Uh, email [00:25:00] marketing is a good strategy, especially with all the talk about social media going down the tubes and Twitter disappearing and all of that. So how does one start an email list today? Um, you know, starting out as a creative, how do you actually get people's attention? Because I do feel like.

[00:25:22] A lot out there. And I know that my people, they're like, yeah, but there's so much also crap out there that I feel like I give my email and I get this one pager that is not even valuable. Um, so what would you say, what would you tell creatives how to get started?

[00:25:40] Miriam: Well, let me just start with that last example you gave just because you had a, you meaning the listener had a bad experience with somebody's Jan.

[00:25:49] Email doesn't mean you have to emulate that. Right. You be that bright spot in someone's email where they look forward to opening your emails or they love the [00:26:00] freebies that you're sending them. You, you be, you, you make a, you can, you're the one who has control over that and can make a difference. Right.

[00:26:07] One thing I like to tell my clients, or what I talk about in the book is emails are really love letters to your audience. Mm-hmm. And that is the best way to nurture a relationship.

[00:26:18] Sarah: Right, so, so when you work with clients, when they ask you, well, so how, what do I create? You have some great examples of what creatives created as a download, as a free

[00:26:33] Miriam: Yes.

[00:26:34] This, this was a very important chapter for my audience because there is so much advice out there for people who are weight loss coaches. You just give them a cheat sheet or a menu and they like, I have no idea what it is that they want, and they come up with things. That really have nothing to do with what they're ultimately selling.

[00:26:55] Like I'll see artists have screensavers or something. It's like, yeah, but you're not [00:27:00] selling that. So that is not, and also people don't want your screensaver. They want their kitty as their screensaver or their kid or their doc. So, The, the things are pe again, this is where people make it way too hard for themselves.

[00:27:13] So for, for my audience who are selling products, one of the best things to give away is just early access. So you don't even have to create something. And this does work. So a good example of this is in, in April when the war first br, when the war first broke out in March and then Easter in April that year.

[00:27:34] Uh, Stanski eggs, which are Ukrainian eggs, I don't know if you you've seen them, but they're very intricate, intricately painted eggs. This was cut out of the preview book that you got, by the way. I think we put it back in for the final version. It doesn't

[00:27:51] Sarah: be, you see? Yeah. So there, I thought you were tricking me, but No,

[00:27:54] Miriam: no, no, no.

[00:27:55] Yeah, so we, we had it in, we cut it out, we put it back in. [00:28:00] So there, there was this artist creating eggs and she sells them for over $200. And they're, they're absolutely gorgeous. These very intricate, and they're made by, um, using I think like a toothpick and putting boutique on to make these fine lines and doing these, the dipping process.

[00:28:21] So she was completely sold out at these prices. Now people are gonna wanna join her email list just to find out when they come back in stock. Wow. So people who are creating one of a kind things, this is something that is a reason. If you're selling a service like a class, it's re, it's a reason enough that people wanna be on the wait list when, when it opens up.

[00:28:44] So that's like the easiest place to go. Uh, if for, for the visual artists out there, I love the giving them a post, people, giving people a postcard with your art on it. That does require. The person giving you their email [00:29:00] address to also give their postal address, which is more of a commitment, but that means they're more serious about your art.

[00:29:06] And again, everything that you're giving as your lead magnet needs to be a free taste of whatever it is that they're ultimately gonna buy. Hmm. So that's why I said a screensaver doesn't work. Um, artists who give away coloring pages, that only works if you're selling a coloring book if you're trying to sell something else.

[00:29:26] Not a great idea. Yeah.

[00:29:28] Sarah: Yeah. Okay. Um, I'm just trying to figure out how, you know, the, the Etsy website, how does that play into the whole I'm an artist and I'm selling my art because Etsy, it's, its stand. Website and I see a lot of creatives putting their art up there, but, but then how would they, yeah. How would.

[00:29:53] Still build an email list and then say, yes, absolutely. It's now available on Etsy. Yes. Something like that. Okay.

[00:29:58] Miriam: Yeah, so that, [00:30:00] that is why I encourage clients to build their own website because if you're gonna have to drive traffic anyway, you might as well drive it to your own site. Yeah. The artists who do well in Etsy are driving traffic fair.

[00:30:16] Yeah. And then Sarah, do you want me to circle back to the lead magnet thing? Because we can also discuss what lead magnets work? Well, if you're not a visual artist, like what I use in my own business, please. Okay. Yep. Let's do that. So, of course there's the free masterclass, but one thing that I, I've done that works really well is transcribing the masterclass and turning that into an e.

[00:30:37] Without the sales pitch, but basically giving the same exact content. So think about all the different content that you're giving them. How can you repackage it and give the same experience? Whether that is a masterclass, some people prefer to read the book, right? You know, like whether it's Terry Potter or the movie.

[00:30:55] Like some people rather read the book than see the movie. Right. So, [00:31:00] yeah, to give them different experiences. Yeah,

[00:31:03] Sarah: I like that. And then I guess, you know, for. I don't know if you've set that up, but the free chapter for the book is usually what you do when you have a book. Have you set that up? I haven't

[00:31:15] Miriam: set that up yet, but I probably should.

[00:31:16] You should. Yeah. I know I probably should. I have to talk to my, uh, yeah, my

[00:31:21] Sarah: publisher about that. Yeah. I, I feel like people, you know, they, they like, uh, uh, free down download of the first chapter and then decide of course on Amazon. Usually you can kind of see the first couple of pages, but it's not, it's not the whole chapter usually.

[00:31:36] Yeah, so it's helpful too. You

[00:31:38] Miriam: wanna hook them in. So yeah. What is it that you can give away that will hook them in and want more of what you got?

[00:31:43] Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. Now, uh, just yesterday in, in my Humane Marketing Circle community, we talked about actually having freebies without getting people's email, there seems to be a trend [00:32:00] of.

[00:32:01] B, because people kind of feel like, well, it's not really free if I have to give my email. And so my people, they're like, oh, I want them in my world, but I don't. I want to have options. I want to have maybe one thing that they can just download for free and then come back for more. What do you think about this strategy?

[00:32:24] Miriam intro: Well, you're taking a big chance that they're not gonna ever come back again. It's kind of like a one night stand.

[00:32:31] Sarah: Yes. Like it, but it could be, you're so good on this one night stand since we're going with this example, that they wanna come back. Right. Because

[00:32:41] Miriam: they're like, they're really, that's the problem that I see with, with TikTok.

[00:32:45] It's like the death of and, and reels on Instagram too, but, but we'll just talk about TikTok. It's the death of the scroll. Mm-hmm. Yeah. So, and I know entrepreneurs are spending a tremendous amount of time creating content for. [00:33:00] TikTok, social media and social. But, but especially those videos, they take a lot of time.

[00:33:04] Now, if you've been on the consuming end of those videos, you know that before you get to that end of that video, they're already making you push up to the next thing. Mm-hmm. So I found that I can have thousands of views on, on a reel with nobody going to my profile. And I had an artist who created a viral reel.

[00:33:24] She got 45 thou, 45,000 views without. Um, like maybe a couple followers, but nobody going to our website cuz you can see the stats. Now with TikTok, the followers there are completely meaningless. You can have, um, you can follow someone and never ever see their content ever again. So somebody who has millions of followers, that's not a relationship with millions of people.

[00:33:48] It's kind of a meaningless metric, right? I would be very wary of trying to build a relationship where you can't, you're not in [00:34:00] control of getting in touch with them ever again. Hmm. Yeah.

[00:34:03] Sarah: Okay. It's interesting, uh, and I totally agree with the, with social media, people spend so much time on there and oftentimes entrepreneurs are exhausted and, and, you know, to go back to the do what's easy, well, social media nowadays is not easy anymore.

[00:34:21] No. It's not really want to get something out of it. So, um, I think it's important to, to say that not enough people. You know, say the truth, how it is, and it's not easy to build a following or, or nevermind a following, just a business, uh, on social media today. So in your opinion then, what's the best way, where would a, a creative, uh, an artist, an entrepreneur start when they're just starting out their.

[00:34:51] Miriam: Well, bill, bill, that email list, and I wanna circle back to a question you did ask, but I don't think I really answered. It's like, well, how and where do you start? Mm-hmm. [00:35:00] And there are only three ways to build your audience. There is what I call your universe. So your universe is anyone you come into contact with, whether it's in person or online.

[00:35:13] Then there are other people's univers. So that could be like what we're doing now. Sarah, I'm on your podcast. You came on mine. Right. So that's basically, other people call it earned press, earned publicity. Mm-hmm. And then, which is free. And the third category is paid publicity. Mm-hmm. Or paid platform. So those are, there's, those are the three ways.

[00:35:39] And they're really, I don't think there is any other way other than those three areas your platform. Other people's platforms and rented platforms. Mm. Yeah.

[00:35:49] Sarah: I, I like that. It, I mean, I know that, but it, explaining it this way, it feels like, okay, if you're just starting out, You gotta start in your [00:36:00] own universe.

[00:36:01] Yes. Cause you don't have the credibility yet to go, or you can start with the paid, but that's also correct. Yeah. Yeah. Um, but you don't really have the credibility yet to go out there and say, okay, can I be on your podcast? Or can that co Or not just credibility, but maybe also confidence.

[00:36:19] Miriam intro: Well, actually, let me.

[00:36:21] Circle back so you can get, um, free, free press. And I did that even in the very beginning. But you need to start local. Local. Okay. Yeah. Okay. So you can't jump, jump the ladder. It's like, it'd be great to be on Oprah. Right. But yeah, there's different levels. Exactly. Like there's things like, you know, I would love Brene Brown to invite me to her podcast, but you know,

[00:36:45] Sarah: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:36:46] It, yeah, it just kind of goes the same with anything in life. It's like, oh, am I on this level or Yeah. Am I evolving to future levels? Yeah.

[00:36:56] Miriam intro: And, and that's why we should talk about something, which I don't think I talk about in the book at all, but [00:37:00] who knows? Maybe if I write another book, who knows. Um, so that's why I spend so much time building what I call relationship capital, because the way to get the.

[00:37:12] To expand outside of your universe and get some of those earned opportunities is by building relationships, which is why joining communities like yours, Sarah, is so important. Like those relationships, yeah. Can help you. And I never have regretted investing in paid programs, paid masterminds, because those networks have been hugely.

[00:37:36] Yeah,

[00:37:37] Sarah: don't you agree? Oh yeah, totally. So much so that, you know, the partnership is the seventh p of the Humane Marketing Mandala. Uh, because I really think partnership is the way to, to market and, and, you know, collaborate with others. And, and what you just said as well is there's different levels within partnerships as.

[00:37:59] [00:38:00] There's the free levels, which is peers, and then there's the paid levels, which is mentors and coaches, which again, it's just like these unwritten rules. You probably can't go to, you know, ask, uh, Brene Brown if she would, you know, feature you or something because there hasn't been a paid relationship for some things.

[00:38:21] There just needs to be a paid relationship for them to pay attention to you. You know, they have so many people they could be paying attention to.

[00:38:30] Miriam: Yeah. And, and one thing that I think is very important, especially now with um, let's just say it like it is the demise of, of easy social media, right? Is I think it is a very important to have your own platform because it's one thing to, uh, to, to get media.

[00:38:49] But it's much better if you are the media. Mm-hmm. Yeah. If you have a YouTube channel, if you have a podcast, and by the way, blogs are coming back. I have been reading people's [00:39:00] blogs posted on in. LinkedIn. That seems to be the new thing. Have you noticed that too? That trend? Everyone's like running to LinkedIn lately.

[00:39:06] Sarah: Oh yeah. No. I've been on LinkedIn for, for years like that.

[00:39:11] Miriam: I've been there, but I haven't been like consuming the way I started to. It's like, well that's a good article. Like as people are actually putting some quality things there. Yeah, so that's be be the media. If you want opportunities, give opportunities.

[00:39:25] Mm-hmm. People like, if you are one of Sarah's coaching clients, invite her to your platform. Right. Am I putting you on the spot? Is this gonna be edited?

[00:39:37] Sarah: N no, no, this is all good. No, we're not editing the, well, we are editing the, but I'm not cutting anything out. Okay. Cause this is, this is a Cuban conversation, so, yeah.

[00:39:47] Yeah. No.

[00:39:48] Miriam: So lemme, instead of putting you on a spot, I'll just talk about myself. So when I joined Masterminds and I started a podcast, I had my, my first guess was my business coach, right? Then I [00:40:00] could say to my business coach's friends who were like, kind of jumping a level here. Mm-hmm. You know, they weren't my level, they were my business coach's level.

[00:40:07] Right. Hey, Jason Van Orden was a guest on my show and I'd love to have you on as well. So now this is already giving me credibility because my business coach. Said yes to me on my podcast, which was an easy yes for me. So now somebody says, oh, well if Jason was on it, I'll do on it. And then I went to the third person, Hey, Jason was on it and such and such was on it.

[00:40:29] Would you like to come on it too? So it's like, this is how we build that ladder of credibility is starting with your own network, starting with peers. And then you can add, just go up those, uh, go up that ladder with baby steps. Yeah,

[00:40:45] Sarah: that's so. I feel like you, you just said blogs are coming back and I, I was also thinking art is come, coming back.

[00:40:55] I really feel like, you know? Yeah. So, so maybe the question would [00:41:00] be like, why does art matter now more than ever going forward?

[00:41:06] Miriam: Yeah. Well, because we're going through such an existential crisis in the world, and art is what gives us meaning.

[00:41:13] Sarah: Mm-hmm. So good. And, and, and that would've been a nice ending, but I wanna come back to that, to that one point you made when I was on your show about the, you know, in marketing we always talk about these pain points and Oh yeah.

[00:41:29] And you have such a good point about. Well, I'll let you explain

[00:41:33] Miriam: it. Okay. So this is like, it's not that marketing doesn't apply to creatives. It just may be the way you've been taught. It's not the right way. So we're talking about the bro marketers and a lot of them also they say find the pain point and twist that night.

[00:41:49] Exactly. Like if you heard it, that's what, but that's what they say. Yeah. All right. So, but the problem is when you're, when you're selling something that gives people pleasure, like [00:42:00] let's say, I'm the producer of Harry Potter. I'm not gonna market the movie by saying, well, their pain point is their bored.

[00:42:08] Watch Harry Potter. It alleviates boredom. You don't do that, right? So, or, or, or what's, what's the pain point of the Oreo cookie? Nothing. We just want it cuz it tastes good. Right? So, And that doesn't mean that your art has to be all rainbows and daisies. Cause there's plenty of art that is dark and goth and emo, and people get a lot of pleasure from that.

[00:42:31] But instead of worrying about what people's night sweats are, what their pain points are, what's keeping them up at night, you gotta think what are their wet dreams? What is it that they, they really want, what they really desire? Mm-hmm. Yeah. And sell that pleasure.

[00:42:49] Sarah: Mm. Yeah. And, and that ties in with why art and pleasure is so important right now is because, you know, who wants to open their email and, and, you [00:43:00] know, Find out how much they suck and how much their life is miserable and because they're not this and that, and not enough.

[00:43:07] No. Like, like you said, we're living in a crisis, so we, we want positive reinforcement, not negative reinforcement. And I think all the right brainers, that's what they're bringing to society right now. Yeah. Yeah. Wonderful. Well, do you tell people where they can find your book in, in your website, and all of.

[00:43:30] Miriam: Okay, so if you like this conversation, you will also love. Sarah on my podcast, the inspiration plates. I'm not sure who, I don't remember who is coming out first. Me neither. But yeah. But you can find the inspiration plates if I'm, if she's not there yet, just hit that plus sign or the follow sign and you'll get it very soon.

[00:43:50] Cuz we had an amazing conversation, which was completely different, I think, than what we talked about today. Mm-hmm. And my book Art is available. There's a lot of [00:44:00] pre-order goodies, so I hope you'll check that out. Art. Dot com.

[00:44:05] Sarah: Wonderful. Entrepreneur book all in one word.

[00:44:08] Miriam: Yeah, that's, that's the website to, to get the book Or just search Entrepreneur.

[00:44:13] But you get bonuses when you go to my page, so there you go. It's all about the, it's all about the freebies.

[00:44:19] Sarah: I always have one last question, and that is, what are you grateful for today, Miriam? More this week? Oh,

[00:44:25] Miriam: that is such a beautiful question. Did you tell me ahead of time? I would have to answer.

[00:44:29] Sarah: No, I did not.

[00:44:31] I put you on the spot because we all have to have something that we're

[00:44:35] Miriam: grateful for. I, I am very grateful for my family right now. Um, I'm grateful that I have a husband who lets me be weird. Um, I'm grateful for, for my children who don't give me too much angst. They're adults, by the way. And, uh, yeah, I'm very grateful for my family.

[00:44:52] Wonderful.

[00:44:53] Sarah: Awesome. Thank you so much for

[00:44:55] Miriam intro: being. And I'm grateful for, for this opportunity too. Let's just, let's [00:45:00] just say that too.

[00:45:01] Sarah: Thank you. If you're an artist or a creative mind, I bet this conversation resonated with you. So do take some time to find out more about Miriam and her [email protected] and check out her book called The Art Printer.

[00:45:19] Wherever you get your books, if you go to schulman art.com/prophet, you'll find, uh, Miriam's, uh, free download. It's called the Artist Profit Plan Guide, and it helps you dig deep to go beyond the starving artist mindset to uncover what's really sabotaging your success. So again, go to schulman art.com/.

[00:45:45] And finally, you can also look up her podcast. It's called The Inspiration Place. And if you look for episode 239, that's the uh, show where I talk to Miriam about humane marketing. So again, [00:46:00] look for the Inspiration Place podcast. And if you wanna hear me on her show, that's episode 239. And if you're looking for others who think like you, then why not join us in the Humane Marketing Circle?

[00:46:15] You can find out more at humane.marketing/circle. You find the show notes on this [email protected] slash 16 one, and on this beautiful page, you'll also find a series of free offers. It is my Saturday newsletter, the Humane Business Manifesto, and the free gentle mini confidence mini course, as well as my two books.

[00:46:41] Marketing like we're human and selling like we're human. Thank you so much for being part of a generation of marketers who cares for yourself, your clients, and the planet. We are change makers before we are marketers. So now go be the change you [00:47:00] want to see in the. Speak soon.[

Today's conversation fits under the P of People

If you're a regular here, you know that I'm organizing the conversations around the 7Ps of the Humane Marketing Mandala.
(If you're new here and don't know what I'm talking about you can download your 1page marketing plan with the Humane Marketing version of the 7 Ps of Marketing at humane.marketing/1page. It comes with 7 email prompts to really help you reflect on these different Ps).

So, we're talking about the P of people or H of Humans. Only 5 years ago, if I said 'People' you probably pictured a room full of people, or you and your clients or you and your friends going for a walk.

Today, in the business context, a lot of the People stuff happens online, on Zoom.

I've been working online for many years before the pandemic, so it wasn't a big change for me. I remember putting up a bonus free webinar to help teachers get acquinted with Zoom in the early months of the pandemic.

Well, now everyone is Zooming. But not everyone does it well.

Just the other week I watched a really quite uncomfortable Zoom call (or a teams call in that case) in a corporate setting where only the manager who was talking was on video, everyone else was hiding behind the screen. When he asked questions, there were long uncomfortable silences.

I've myself had to really learn and still learning how facilitate groups on Zoom like our Humane Marketing Circle while giving everyone a chance to speak, and still keep the intimacy in breakout rooms.

That's why I'm really excited to be able to learn from today's guest, Robbie Samuels.

Robbie has been recognized as a networking expert by NPR, PCMA, Harvard Business Review, Forbes, and Inc, and as an expert in virtual event design by JDC Events. As a virtual event design consultant and executive Zoom producer, he helps organizations bring their events online with less stress and greater participant engagement. He is the author of three books, including his latest, ​​"Break Out of Boredom: Low-Tech Solutions for Highly Engaging Zoom Events." Since 2016, he has hosted the On the Schmooze podcast and, since March 2020, #NoMoreBadZoom Virtual Happy Hour.

In today's episode, Robbie and I talk about:

• How to host virtual events that feel like we're human
• How to facilitate bigger groups
• Create valuable breakout rooms
• How to make sure everyone gets a turn to speak
• How to create a feeling of community between participants
• Best practices to make calls engaging and fun
• And so much more

Thanks for listening!

 

After you listen, check out Humane Business Manifesto, an invitation to belong to a movement of people who do business the humane and gentle way and disrupt the current marketing paradigm. You can download it for free at this page. There's no opt-in. Just an instant download.

Are you enjoying the podcast?  The Humane Marketing show is listener-supported—I'd love for you to become an active supporter of the show and join the Humane Marketing Circle. You will be invited to a private monthly Q&A call with me and fellow Humane Marketers -  a safe zone to hang out with like-minded conscious entrepreneurs and help each other build our business and grow our impact.  — I'd love for you to join us! Learn more at humane.marketing/circle

Don't forget to subscribe to the show on iTunes or on Android to get notified for all my future shows and why not sign up for my weekly(ish) "Sarah Suggests Saturdays", a round-up of best practices, tools I use, books I read, podcasts, and other resources.

Raise your hand and join the Humane Business Revolution.

Warmly,

Sarah

Imperfect Transcript of the show

We use and love Descript to edit our podcast and provide this free transcript of the episode. And yes, that's an affiliate link.

Ep 160

Ep 160

[00:00:00] Sarah: Hello, humane marketers. Welcome back to the Humane Marketing Podcast, the place to be for the generation of marketers that cares. This is a show where we talk about running your business in a way that feels good to you, is aligned with your values, and also resonates with today's conscious customers because it's humane, ethical, and non-pushy.

[00:00:23] I'm Sarah z Croce, your hippie turn business coach for quietly rebellious entrepreneurs and marketing impact by. Mama Bear of the Humane Marketing Circle and renegade author of marketing like we're human and selling like we're human. If after listening to the show for a while, you are ready to move on to the next level and start implementing and would welcome a community of like-minded, quietly rebellious entrepreneurs who discuss with transparency.

[00:00:52] Works and what doesn't work in business, then we'd love to welcome you in our humane marketing circle. If you're picturing your [00:01:00] typical Facebook group, let me paint a new picture for you. This is a closed community of like-minded entrepreneurs from all over the world who come together once per month in a Zoom circle workshop to hold each other accountable and build their business.

[00:01:15] Sustainable way we share with transparency and vulnerability, what works for us and what doesn't work, so that you can figure out what works for you instead of keep throwing spaghetti on the wall and seeing what sticks. Find out more at humane.marketing/circle, and if you prefer one-on-one support from me.

[00:01:37] My humane business Coaching could be just what you need, whether it's for your marketing, sales, general, business building, or help. Idea like writing a book. I'd love to share my brain and my heart with you together with my almost 15 years business experience and help you grow a sustainable business that is joyful and sustainable.

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[00:02:33] Hi, friends. Welcome back. Today's conversation fits under the P of people. If you're a regular here, you know that I'm appreciating you and that I'm organizing the conversations around the seven Ps. Of the Humane Marketing Mandala, and if you're new here, I appreciate you just as much, and maybe you don't know what I'm talking about, but you can download your one page marketing plan with the [00:03:00] humane marketing version of the seven Ps of [email protected] slash.

[00:03:06] One page, the number one, then the word page, and this comes with seven email prompts to really help you reflect on these different Ps and kind of question all your assumptions around them. So we're talking about the P of people or the. Age of humans today, and you know, only five years ago if I said people, you probably pictured their room full of people or you and your clients, or you and your friends going for a walk.

[00:03:38] But today, in the business context, a lot of the people stuff happens online on Zoom right now, I've been working online for many. Before the pandemic, so it wasn't a big change for me, but I remember putting up a bonus free webinar to help teachers get acquainted with Zoom in the early months of the pandemic because [00:04:00] none of the teachers knew how to use Zoom.

[00:04:02] Of course. So everyone is zooming today, but not everyone does it well. Um, just the other week I watched a really quite uncomfortable zoom call or a teams call in that case, in a corporate setting where. Only the manager who was talking was on video, and everyone else was kind of hiding behind the screen.

[00:04:25] And when he asked questions, there were like these long, uncomfortable silences and nobody answered. Not saying that silence is bad, silence is good, but in this case, if everybody's hidden behind their camera, then the poor manager obviously doesn't know what they're doing if they're even still there. So anyway.

[00:04:46] Had to really learn, and I'm still learning myself how to facilitate groups on Zoom, like the ones in our humane marketing circle, while giving everyone a chance to speak [00:05:00] and still keep the intimacy in breakout rooms. So, yeah, I learned a lot over the last two years and that's why I'm super excited to be able to learn even more from today's guest, Robbie Samuels.

[00:05:14] Robbie is a recognized networking expert and an expert in virtual event design. As a virtual event design consultant and executive Zoom producer, he helps organizations bring their events online with less stress and greater per participant engagement. He's the author of three books, including his latest.

[00:05:36] Break out of boredom, low tech solutions for highly engaging Zoom events. Since 2016, he has hosted the Amish Schmooze Podcast and since March, 2020, the no more bad Zoom virtual happy hour. . So in this episode with Robbie, we talked about how to host virtual events that feel like we're [00:06:00] human, how to facilitate bigger groups, how to create valuable breakout rooms, how to make sure everyone gets a turn to speak, how to create a feeling of community between participants.

[00:06:14] Best practices to make calls engaging and fun and so much more. As you will probably be able to tell, I really took this kind of like a, a mini coaching session for myself, and again, we're really applying this in our humane marketing circle. It's intimate, it's engaging everybody. Uh, turn or a chance to speak.

[00:06:39] So if that's something you are curious about, do have a look at humane.marketing/circle. It's our community of humane marketers or entrepreneurs who want to market their business their way. We meet twice per month in an online setting. Right now it's Zoom, but [00:07:00] we'll actually change over to our own private live room on k.

[00:07:05] Have a look at the details at humane.marketing/circle. And with that, let's welcome Robbie. Hey Robbie. So good to see you speak to you today. Yeah, thanks for having me here. Yeah, I'm excited. Uh, it's one of those topics, right, that five years ago we probably wouldn't be sitting on a call together, or at least not for that.

[00:07:29] Probably more for networking, uh, because that's, that was your thing in the past or probably still is, but, but yeah, you kind of pivoted with the, with the pandemic and all. But yeah, I, I kind of. Dove right into it. So welcome to the Humane Marketing Podcast. I love you. You, I love to have you here. Why don't you take us a little bit into the past, but not too much, because we really wanna talk about, you know, zoom calls, group calls, [00:08:00] facilitation online, and all of that, which is the topic of your latest book as well.

[00:08:05] So take us a little bit to the past and then to, to the.

[00:08:09] Robbie: Well, Sarah, um, I spent over 10 years before the pandemic working to be recognized as a networking expert with a focus on networking at conferences, and that included writing a, my first book, launching a podcast. , um, creating a group coaching program, writing for Howard Business Review, doing a TEDx talk.

[00:08:28] I was poised to be an overnight success 10 years in the making. Uh, my TEDx talk came out January, 2020, and by March, 2020 nobody cared. , it was sort of a, uh, not a very relevant topic to be an expert in around in-person networking because all in-person conferences and events really, Vanished. So I was trying to figure out how to show up and add value, and I wrote nine Ways to Network in a Pandemic as a, as a blog post on March 12th, 2020.

[00:08:57] And one of those ways was to host [00:09:00] a virtual happy hour, which I did on March 13th. Unbeknownst to me that really launched a whole new thriving six figure business, uh, with all kinds of new revenue streams and really impacted a lot of other people's. I mean, it impacted my life, but the ripple effect is, has been extraordinary.

[00:09:17] And by the end of the year, I was supporting organizations of bringing their events online with less stress and greater participant engagement. And as you mentioned, I am about to release on the three anniversary of that first virtual Happy hour, my third book, which is Break Out of Boredom, low Tech Solutions for Highly Engaging Zoom Event.

[00:09:37] Sarah: Wonderful. Wow, what a comeback. Kudos to you. It must have been quite a dark night of the soul. I, I imagine that just kind of like realizing, oh my God, now what?

[00:09:49] Robbie: Well, I mean, I, I accepted what was happening on March 9th because I had been paying attention to the news and mm-hmm. sort of was watching this come starting.

[00:09:57] You saw this probably in January, just kinda like, [00:10:00] yeah. I was watching it kind of, kind of encroach our, our shores mm-hmm. and get closer and closer, so, I think I came to terms with it, uh, but I didn't know what to do next, and I don't like feeling that, I mean, I, I'm a person of action, so that feeling of being stuck.

[00:10:14] But I was very fortunate because on uh, that Wednesday of that week, which is the 11th, I met with my peer mastermind and they gave me a kick in the pants and said, you don't think of networking as something that only happens in person. You have been building a global network for five years, virtually.

[00:10:31] Why don't you go help people? And that got me outta my own way, and that's what led me to. Um, basically that night I started working on the nine ways list and, uh, published it the next day it got, you know, a good response cause it was very timely and I said, okay, I need to do one of these things. And I just looked at the list and it was 8:00 PM on a Thursday night , which is why the event is held five o'clock on a Friday cuz it was the next open spot that I could imagine calling a happy [00:11:00] hour.

[00:11:00] And I didn't intend it to be a global network. A global event, but 36 countries have been represented amongst the members. Nice. Who attended I, and I'm still hosting it. Right? I'm still hosting that event. No more bad. zoom.com. Three years later.

[00:11:13] Sarah: Wow. Yeah. Yeah. It's really it. It kind of demonstrates this idea of that you are not.

[00:11:21] You know, you're, you're not kind of pushed into a niche, and that's where you are stuck for the rest of your life. There's a common thread to your message, right? And whether it is networking in person or now networking online and doing online meetings, Your concept or your approach to it is still the same?

[00:11:41] Uh, it reminds me of my dark night of the soul where I got, you know, into a trademark mess where someone, um, was basically blocking me of using gentle marketing, which was the term I used before. And for like about two weeks, I was stuck a bit longer, Robbie, for about two weeks. I was like, well, now what?

[00:11:59] [00:12:00] You know, how, how do I get out of this? And everything, everything I built, the books I published and, and two years of work and all of that. But then I realized, people told me as well, it's, well, it's not about a word. You know, you still have the community, you still have the concept, and, and so it's just mm-hmm.

[00:12:17] It's great to hear those stories, I think. Right. For listeners as well to realize, well, you know, you can rebound. and, and start something new and it's still gonna be you and it's still giving you your approach, but, you know, just slightly different topic. So, so yeah, let's talk about this slightly different topic because, uh, as you, I think, uh, in one of the videos I watched from you, you said, you know, at the beginning you didn't even know you had breakout rooms, came with your free Zoom account.

[00:12:48] And so yeah, that's how we all felt at the beginning of the pandemic. Been working online for years and years. So I knew Zoom, but it's true that a lot of people had like no idea [00:13:00] how to, you know, for me as well, breakout rooms was not a thing that I was using. So nowadays obviously everybody is zooming or, or teams or whatever they're using.

[00:13:10] So how do you s how have you seen this evolve? Like what would you say in general? is the kind of the state of the online meetings now. Mm-hmm. . Do most people use them to their advantage and you know that it's really great. All these Zoom meetings we have, or do you hear kind of the opposite?

[00:13:33] Robbie: Well, just to go back to your earlier point, the through line for me is that events are about content and connection.

[00:13:39] Right. People were leaving their house and getting on planes to travel to conferences, not just for the information they would learn, but for the people they would meet. Right. And so when events became synonymous with the virtual events, I knew we needed to figure out a way to make that possible virtually.

[00:13:57] Now, prior to the pandemic, An [00:14:00] online program, which was typically a webinar platform where you couldn't see participants and participants couldn't see each other. Right. It was 45 minutes of death by PowerPoint, followed by ineffectual Q and A on moderating chat . Oh God. Yeah. So I think we've come a long way in what our expectations are, but I also think it depends on the industry.

[00:14:19] Because I still know, you know, I've, I've been invited to do some programming virtually for the employee resource group of like a bank or a law firm or financial sector. And like, they tend to be blown away by what I'm doing because they're using it in a very, Minimalist approach to how they use whatever platform they're using.

[00:14:42] They're just like turning on their camera and that's it. And

[00:14:46] Sarah: if that, because I've assisted to some of the meetings my husband has to kind of survive through and yeah, nobody is on camera like. .

[00:14:55] Robbie: That's just it. So, so I think that it really is a range. I can't answer like one way, but I [00:15:00] also don't focus personally on corporate space or the workforce.

[00:15:03] Mm-hmm. , I'm my book and my approach is really focusing on the presenters who have between 60 and 90 minutes to offer value to a one-time audience. now, and a lot of this can be therefore applied if you are teaching, uh, a course or a class, this is, you know, or even like a, a weekly team meeting, you can apply a lot of this to that.

[00:15:25] But I think there's, there's a few more restrictions. So, for instance, I don't recommend using third party. Tools like Mentee Meter and Jamboard, which I love. But if you only have 60, 75, 90 minutes, you might lose people because if they don't, if they're not familiar and you don't know if they're familiar cuz you don't know the audience super well, you might lose them.

[00:15:45] And, and if, if it's about engagement, you're gonna get 70 to 90% of people to responding to a Zoom poll. And you might get 30 to 50% actually answering. , one of these third party polls. Mm-hmm. . And so [00:16:00] yes, it's fancy, yes, it's cool , but if the end result is fewer people actually taking action and people feeling a little bit confused about something, that's not where we want people to be.

[00:16:11] So I also, I really focus a lot in the book and in the work that I do on some principles around purpose first design and also quality facilitation. So I'm, I'm specifically focusing on the Zoom. As far as the technology, but those other pieces around facilitation and purpose first design are applicable to any medium, including in person.

[00:16:36] Mm-hmm. . So I think there's a strong Venn diagram because I also do in-person event design consulting, and I've been doing that a long time. And then back to doing that again now that people are backed in person. So to me there's a big overlap. How you design an in-person workshop or presentation for 90 minutes and online, but then there's the outliers that you have to consider for both.

[00:16:58] So I think that there's a lot of [00:17:00] potential. I've done incredible programming. I've got some great stories in the book about some really cool outcomes we've achieved by bringing people together across geographies to have really in depth conversations about important topics. . I also think that people's tolerance for the sort of boring approach, , is they really don't have any, like, I think people are zoomed out and zoom fatigue.

[00:17:24] That's why I call it breakout of boredom. And, and by, by the way, breakout rooms, I went from not knowing I had access to, you know, , I dunno, my book's like 60 some odd thousand words and like 10,000 words. Almost 20% is about breakout rooms. So,

[00:17:40] Sarah: yeah. So let's go there. Um, I, I wanna really have you walk us through kind of some of these, you know, yes, they're technicalities, but I think the way you explain them is always comes back to purpose.

[00:17:54] You know, like what is. , what's the common [00:18:00] purpose for, uh, us to be on this call? That's how I understood it, um, when I went through this checklist that you'll share with us at the end. So let's start with the waiting room, right? Um, that's usually our first experience when we go on to a Zoom meeting. So how, if we are, if my listeners are hosting a group, uh, zoom.

[00:18:24] what are some of the things that can be done? Let's just take Zoom as an example, can be done to already kind of give people this feeling of I belong, or this is, I'm a, I'm on in the right group here. Sure. Like what

[00:18:39] Robbie: can we do? Well, for starters, if you're having a group meeting, stop using your personal meeting room because, uh, you, if you write, if you create a meeting, a specific meeting for.

[00:18:53] Group, then the name of that meeting will be what appears in the waiting room. Um, so that'll assure people. But you can [00:19:00] also have different settings. So if you use a different link, you could set it so that participants are muted upon entry. Mm-hmm. . Now for why one-on-one calls, I do use my personal meeting ID and I don't mute people because if it's just two of us, I, I don't need you to be muted.

[00:19:18] It's actually kind of an inconvenience for you to be. Right, because people start talking and I have to point out to them like, don't forget to unmute . Yeah, the usual, you're muted . Yeah. So then the other thing I would say for waiting rooms, you can customize it beyond that. And there's a bunch of different options.

[00:19:33] A lot of what I'm gonna be sharing is under zoom.us, and then you go to settings, which is on the left side menu, and you can just start from the top. And actually really close to the top is waiting rooms. So there's some really cool customi customization, uh, including you can embed a video, you can put an image, you can put text.

[00:19:50] Um, I sometimes have texts just says, , take a breath. You know, like, yeah. Take a, take a moment to yourself. Mm-hmm. before you come in. Yeah. But you need [00:20:00] to know that whatever you put for your customization will be what people see for all of your meetings. For that one account. So Okay. If you make a special video for like a big event you're doing, you have to then remember, put a note on your calendar to switch it back to whatever.

[00:20:14] You're more general, so you can

[00:20:16] Sarah: customized each waiting room separately for each meeting. It's just one you

[00:20:21] Robbie: can, but you'd have to like keep going back in and remembering to switch it on and off. Right.

[00:20:25] Sarah: Okay. Yeah. Okay. That makes sense. Yeah. Okay, great. So, uh, one question. Can people chat already in the waiting room?

[00:20:33] I don't think so. Right.

[00:20:35] Robbie: Uh, they can't, uh, right now the host can communicate with people in the waiting room. Uh, and I think that they're gonna come out with a feature where the waiting room can then respond back to the host individually. Okay. Um, they, you cannot change your name, for instance, in the waiting.

[00:20:53] but the host can change your name. So there's some new features that are coming out. Okay. Um, but I also wanna go back to, [00:21:00] you mentioned purpose first design, and I, I address it as well. So I want you to think about, as people are coming into your session, they're going to be thinking, feeling, and you're doing.

[00:21:11] one thing. At the end of their time together, they're gonna be thinking, feeling, and or doing something else. And then in between is the transformation, right? So if you really spend some time thinking about where they're starting and where you want them to end up, that will help you decide. The structure flow, what exercises, what kind of content, how much time to spend on things, what to put in the waiting room, whether or not to have a breakout room.

[00:21:38] If so, what kind of question? What kind of, what is the goal of, even for a breakout room, like what's the purpose of a breakout room? Is it around networking? Is it for them to discuss something? Is it for them to share? Is for them to feel like they belong. Like once you understand the sort of really primary focus of each piece of it and how it fits in with that overall goal, it's gonna help you design a much better [00:22:00] quality experience for your participants.

[00:22:02] So that's the purpose first design piece. And then the facilitation is just to stop confusing people by saying the incorrect thing. Like go ahead and raise your hand in chat. Never been a raised hand button in chat. I've heard that phrase a lot. Or pointing down and like pointing, uh, pointing here and saying, go to reactions when that's not where it is.

[00:22:28] Reactions on your side is on he over here. So if I, if I go to tell you like, um, oh, go ahead and go ahead and, uh, go to the top right of your screen and click. I'm not pointing at the right side of your screen. . This is the right side of your screen. So that's cold mirroring . Mm-hmm. And if you were on a stage physically, you would, you would know that, right?

[00:22:51] Like you would know that if you pointed to your left, they're gonna see it on the right. But when we're doing this virtually, people kind of forgot all about that. So that just [00:23:00] hurts our brains. It makes our brains work a little extra hard. And that's part of that zoom fatigue is confusing instructions.

[00:23:07] Um, The person who spends a lot of time saying, um, all right, let's see. I'm gonna try to share my slides. Let's see. Oh, the file's not open. And then they like, share their desktop. And you watch them like go through everything on their desktop. You're like, uhhuh, as they like narrate every step. That's, we can all get 5% better every time we zoom.

[00:23:30] Yeah. Whether we're participating, whether we're hosting, whether we're speaking. Just aim to get that little bit better. .

[00:23:37] Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. There's so many small details that we need to learn, right? That, that now it's this extra layer. And actually in some of the videos you, you mentioned it's really helpful to a first, have an extra, um, screen that you can, you know, have one just dedicated screen for your PowerPoint presentation, for example.

[00:23:58] Mm-hmm. , uh, [00:24:00] and even, uh, an extra person, like someone who helps you, you know, read through their questions in a q and a setting, or, yeah, just like there's so many things that we have to manage that, or we haven't even started talking about breakout rooms. But yeah, there's a lot of things going on that it, it really is sometimes helpful to have a, an extra person.

[00:24:22] Robbie: Mm-hmm. , I think if, um, if you have more than 20 people, , I think it's, it starts to be a, for most people, that's where it makes sense to start thinking about having a second person. Right. But that second person, um, could be like a fellow. Uh, I, I know for instance, I know speakers who sh who support each other.

[00:24:42] Right. Will they take turns? Like one will moderate chat for one person's program and then the other one will go back and moderate chat for the other person's program? Yeah. Awesome. You can train an assistant or, uh, an. or you know, a VA or even a member of your community to manage chat and manage the q and a [00:25:00] and manage, you know, all of that.

[00:25:01] So yeah, it, it, it, and then, but it scales up because, you know, I, I train people on to be Zoom producers, and so Zoom producer would do all the tech, not just the chat. They would handle any technical issues that. You know, community has getting in, getting their sound to work. And then they would also, uh, manage breakout rooms and sharing slides if you need them to, any, anything needed.

[00:25:27] Uh, as well as managing chat. And then there's the executive sort of, uh, event design, virtual event design that I do where I'm really providing the strategy ahead of time, training the speakers and how to look good, all that stuff. So it, there's layer. . But I would say starting with having a. Understanding of what does a good Q and A even look like?

[00:25:50] Mm-hmm. , and then what kind of support you might need to pull that off. If you've only got six or seven people in a room, I think you're, you're fine on your own. Fine. Yeah. But you still have to know that [00:26:00] while I'm doing my best to look at the camera, there's something happening in chat. So I have sort of techniques where I ask people to write their question and chat, but to write the word question in all caps before their question.

[00:26:13] So I'm more likely to. To see it. I also increase the font size by to 150% of the original font size in chat, which makes it a lot easier to catch when things are happening, um, off to side. So these are all little things that over time one thing becomes easier. Then you add on something else. So I'm not saying everyone has to do everything all at once.

[00:26:36] That's the 5% part. Um, so I actually have a, a program called The 5% Advantage, and it's the, I launched it in May of 2020 and um, my wife was like, why would anyone wanna get 5% better ? And I said, no, no, every time it's about like continual improvement. , it's, it, it's amazing, like how much faster you will improve if you aim to just [00:27:00] keep getting a little bit better each time.

[00:27:03] Sarah: I like that. Um, I do wanna ask you about breakout rooms cuz that's I think one of the things that Yeah, a lot of, uh, these. Programs, um, now include right now that we've gotten used to being on camera on Zoom, where it's not just like a webinar style anymore. And so one of the things you mentioned, um, is this idea of having clear instructions and, and I think I.

[00:27:28] Really, I probably get better 5% every time I do it, but it's true that it's so essential to give clear instructions before sending people off into breakout rooms. Cuz you, you explained, you know the situation where people find themselves in the breakout room and they're like, Uh, anyone know what we have to do?

[00:27:48] And, you know, they just start chatting about who they are and, and all of that. So, what's kind of like best practices about giving clear instructions, uh, for these breakout

[00:27:58] Robbie: rooms? So start back [00:28:00] with the purpose first design. What is the goal of the session? The, the breakout part of this session? Um, if it's a quick icebreaker, then you can do either two people for five minutes or three for six.

[00:28:11] If you can open more. I don't know, 10, 15 rooms. I would say three for. minutes is better cuz it's less likely that someone's gonna get stuck in a room by themself because of the internet. Um, failing one person. Um, but that would be like a quick icebreaker question. So they're just, they're literally just going around for a moment to say hello to each other.

[00:28:30] Uh, you might do three or four people for 10 minutes. To similarities, how people go around and answer a question. Um, each person gets a couple of minutes and then that goes all the way up to, you know, a discussion where people might get, you know, it might be five or six people for 15 minutes where people really all answer a quick question, but then they dive into.

[00:28:49] thoughts about that question a little bit more. So what happens is that if you just sort of throw people in a room without any clear question, uh, someone will [00:29:00] eventually unmute. Like at first they're all gonna like, look at each other. Like, what do we do here? The person who's most comfortable, um, most privileged , uh, probably has been around this community the longest is, is gonna be the one who unmutes and they may not relinquish the microphone and it might become just a.

[00:29:19] A whole session of one person talking and now you're in the main room and you're like, awesome People are engaged. They're having so much fun. But that's, that's like checkbox engagement. Like in reality, one person had the mic for the whole time. So what I wanted to say is intentional engagement is that we provide not only a question that is specific, one question, not lots, don't ask the choose from three and all that, but you also provide an answer.

[00:29:46] So you say, , you know, what's your biggest win of the week? Here's mine to get you thinking. Here's mine that you then put the question that you just said as the prompt in chat, and you say, if you need [00:30:00] to, you can open up chat and see the question. And let's go alphabetically. Let's go alphabetically by last name.

[00:30:07] So if your last name's closest to a, you'll go first. We'll go in that order. And if you don't have a last name showing, go ahead and add it. Or you're going first. Hmm. And that way they get in their brains have already been thinking about the question. , when you tell your answer, you're sharing a story and stories ignite stories in other people's brains.

[00:30:27] Mm-hmm. . So when I tell you my big win of the week, you start thinking about, well, what's my big win of the week? Mm-hmm. . So you're already a little bit primed to participate, and then you find out the order and you realize. . Ooh, there's a good chance I'm gonna be going first. , like my last name's close to a, and you're like, oh.

[00:30:43] So you really are mentally repaired to unmute and jump in. Now some people get kind of cutesy about the order and they do like longest and short hair or colors of shirts or birthdays. All of those are kind of distracting. Take some time to discuss. [00:31:00] Leading. I mean I've been in so many sessions like that, that we end up talking about horoscopes cuz we were asked to like go in the order of our birthdays, right?

[00:31:09] So I generally, I say like alphabetical or, or reverse alphabetical by, um, first name or last name. And if you really think a particular order would be helpful, for instance, maybe people for most experience at least experience with something you can say when you get into the breakout rooms, go to chat and put in the.

[00:31:27] Of years you have with this, and we'll use that to organize, you know, most experienced, at least experience. But, um, but all that structure is actually, um, it helps people feel like they belong. And I actually think that thoughtful structure is about inclusion. It's about people feeling not just invited, but welcomed into a conversation.

[00:31:49] It tells shy people and introverted people and newcomer. and people who maybe you speak a language that's different than the dominant language being used, it tells [00:32:00] them exactly what the rules are. There's no like in crowd knows how to ask questions or how to unmute. Everybody knows everything. So I think we, we, um, we as hosts and facilitators sometime like relinquish our role by saying, you all figure it out, but just like an in-person event, like people thrown together at a bar.

[00:32:24] Often find the people they wanna meet. But when you structure an event at a bar and you've got name tags and people who are welcoming, you've got activities, you have people in, you know, interacting and engaging with each other. , that little bit of structure is what leads people to find each other, not just the randomness.

[00:32:41] And I think online we need the similar structure to help people really find value in those breakout room discussions and wanna stay in touch. Everybody wants to find their people. Nobody wants to feel like they're the only one in the room having this challenged problem, identity, whatever it is. So I, I love [00:33:00] breakout rooms for that reason.

[00:33:00] I think it provides so much community building. and then you bring them back. And I think an important part of, of breakout rooms is thinking about what kind of debrief. And by default, a lot of times the debrief is just how people use the raised hand feature. Um, or worse, worse than that would be go ahead and unmute if you have anything to say.

[00:33:20] I'm like in person. You would never be like, all right folks, just start talking . It's just so weird that we do that online all the time. Um, so I would say alternate between sometimes having people raise their hand, which is self nominat. Sometimes have people write things in chat sometimes, uh, have them write things in chat, but wait to hit enter until you tell them.

[00:33:39] I call that a, uh, waterfall debrief. Um, sometimes I have people nominate someone in chat mm-hmm. . So like, who shared a really great win, nominate them and let's, uh, get them to share with all of us. Um, there's just so many ways. To bring lots of voices in, not always the same. Like I'm an outgoing extrovert.

[00:33:56] I, Sarah, I will raise my hand, answer a question, not knowing what the question [00:34:00] even was. , like, I'm like, sure. Mm-hmm. . But then you have people like me dominated in conversations the whole time. So the structure allows someone else to grab the mic or to be invited to grab the mic if they choose.

[00:34:12] Sarah: Yeah. Thank you.

[00:34:13] I'm grabbing the, I'm grabbing the mic. I'm the introvert in the room. . Um, yeah. So many good things. Two, no, I'm just gonna kind of reiterate the main takeaways for me. So first of all, yeah, the clear instructions when you send people into the breakout room and, and also what I really loved is, and what we haven't been doing in my Humane Marketing Circle community is defining ahead of time who goes first.

[00:34:43] I think that is a big aha for me to really say. . Yeah. Take away that awkwardness like, you know, do you wanna go first? No, you go first. So it's like, okay. It's already clear who goes first. What my community recently asked me is actually to have two [00:35:00] minutes of reflection before they go into a breakout room so that they can.

[00:35:05] Kind of think about because we kind of go deep into the, in, in the breakout rooms. But the other thing I learned right now from you is to, for them to already have my answer, um, so that it, like you said, it's a story, right? So they come in with a story, um, And I love that. One thing you didn't mention, uh, that I'm doing, and you'll tell me what you think about that is.

[00:35:30] So I usually, for now, I don't go into the breakout rooms just because I, I don't have another person to help me manage it. So I'm the one sending the messages into the breakout rooms saying, okay, it's time to switch next person, you know. The three or four minutes to talk. Do you use that? Is that a good practice or do you

[00:35:50] Robbie: Yeah, so, um, there's a couple things that I didn't, I didn't mention that.

[00:35:54] Made me think about. One is there's a, there's a setting when you, there's an option when you set up the breakout [00:36:00] rooms that will put a countdown clock on the top. Right? Right. So it's really helpful to turn that on Uhhuh because then when everyone gets in, they know they have 10 minutes and they know how much time is remaining.

[00:36:10] Um, helps 'em divide the time up equally. It helps them. Wrap their conversation up and at the end of that 10 minutes, my recommendation is to change. To be a 15 second countdown clock is default. 60 minutes. 60 seconds. Mm-hmm. But if you're watching the time countdown, and then suddenly you have a minute, there's this moment of almost walk awkward walk.

[00:36:29] Awkward is when you say a big goodbye to someone at a restaurant and then discover we're both going in the same direction to your cars . That's. in person, but similarly, like you get to this point where everyone's like, all right, great, see you. Oh, 60 seconds. And then some people leave. Some people are like, oh, I have a whole nother thing.

[00:36:47] I think I can squeeze in 60. Like it just, you know. So you're the

[00:36:51] Sarah: countdown. It's better to have less time

[00:36:53] Robbie: actually. Like Yeah, just get like, okay, we're wrapping up, we're coming back like we had, you got your 10 minutes, [00:37:00] then come back. Or to tell people, I mean, I guess if you wanted 'em to keep the 60 seconds, you can say, It's gonna be, you know, I guess just give people clear instructions.

[00:37:08] Yeah. Um, and then, yes, there's a couple of ways to broadcast into the rooms. One is text only, and I, that's like walking by with a sign. Like if you were at an in-person event, you'd be walking by with a sign that said two minutes. You know, and you wouldn't say anything. You would just walk by and try to catch.

[00:37:24] Not everyone would see it. You might be holding the sign behind some people's heads. Right. It's a very small font at the top. Then they have broadcast. and that is a lot more jarring if you wanted to use it. I think you need to tell people in advance, um, that you're going to say switch because it's a voice

[00:37:42] Sarah: outta nowhere.

[00:37:42] I never used it cuz I thought like, that is so odd if all of a sudden

[00:37:46] Robbie: they hear my voice. Now, if you only had two people and it was very clearly like, you know, pairing and then switch, I could see cuz again would you in person like ring a bell and call out. Okay folks switch like [00:38:00] if you would. Think about like, yes, it's disruptive.

[00:38:04] Now the problem is if you, if you have three people you don't know when they switched, like it's not as exact as science. And then there's also a way to broadcast an image, a video, or um, like a slides, like anything you can put on your screen, you can broadcast that. , um, that would be interesting to do if you had facilitators in the rooms and you wanted everyone to go through this content at the same pace.

[00:38:26] You would be advancing the slides based on a certain increment of time. Facilitators would then be sort of taking questions, um, and. You would know that all the rooms were kind of moving through the content at the same pace, at the same amount of time for q and a at the end, and you'd be managing that.

[00:38:44] They wouldn't be able to forward it, they wouldn't be able to annotate on it. But it is a way to like share the question. Again, it's disruptive in the sense that suddenly there's this thing on their screen mm-hmm. , um, that's, that's blocking some of them. Although they're, it's funny because the people are gonna be, uh, actually [00:39:00] over here in the image over here if they have a side by side set up.

[00:39:03] So, but, um, but generally, yeah, the broadcast messaging, I would say like a two minute warning is usually really useful, like a halfway through two minutes left. But, um, the countdown clock up here is, is really, really helpful for most. .

[00:39:17] Sarah: Yeah, I'll start using that. I haven't used that. I didn't know it existed.

[00:39:20] And, and so thanks to your checklist, I now know where it is. So, so, um, yeah, we're coming to the end and, and so let's not forget to mention your checklist, but we started with the beginning. We went through the, you know, breakout rooms and all of that. And you said in the design, it's so important to also think.

[00:39:40] you know, how are we gonna end this? So what is a good ending? What is, do you use any rituals or, um, yeah. You mentioned pictures, I think in one of the tips as well where you kind of take a screenshot of everybody. What are some good ideas for ending

[00:39:56] Robbie: calls? Well, I think a lot of times calls end [00:40:00] with, well, we don't really have any time for anymore questions.

[00:40:04] Like, and that's it. So if it's a presentation, I think it's really smart to. like two minutes. The end where you say, you know, oh, okay. Let me just, um, you know, those were great questions. Lemme just share some closing thoughts and then you have like the reiteration of your main point. Not, not new information, but like, it could be a reiteration of your main point.

[00:40:26] It could be call to action or here are some next steps, or Here's what's coming up. , but you make sure that the, you know, if you're hosting, you give the mic back to the speaker, you thank them, you let them have two minutes, and then you take it back and say like, thank you. Here's what's happening next. So we just, you wanna think about having kind of a close, um, that isn't just, you know, wa wa we're out of time and, um, and, and gets people thinking about what do they do with this next, I, I like to do something I call calendaring, connecting, collaborating, and I do this both [00:41:00] in person.

[00:41:01] as well as online when I design calendaring. Connecting, collaborating. So calendaring is you ask everyone to take a minute to think about one thing they can do in the next two weeks that they will help them move forward on this topic. And you say, great, now that you have that idea, open your calendar on your phone and find a time in the next two weeks that you're gonna be able to do that.

[00:41:22] And like, look at your notes from today and. Connecting is if you're not quite sure what to do or you need some help, uh, look around to the people that you've been meeting with today and in breakout rooms and me and other. Here are some other people and resources. These are the people that you can sup, get support from.

[00:41:39] Write down their names. Make sure that in those two weeks you also reach out to some of them and say hello and build a connection or deepen a connection. And then collaboration is that we're not doing any of this alone. I'd love to know. What happens next? Um, you know, lean into each other together. We're gonna build great things.

[00:41:56] So, you know, this is your community. And I think that [00:42:00] particularly if, if your goal is to move people from inspiration to action, having that kind of ritualistic closure is helpful because, You know, some people will take tons of notes, but it's, it's useless without a plan. And others are just listening and not taking notes and so they, they also don't have a plan.

[00:42:17] And so building some time in, and that could be 10 minutes, that could be a, a, you can really draw that out if you wanted to, or it could be something you do kind of quickly.

[00:42:26] Sarah: Mm-hmm. . Yeah. I love that. And I love that. , you know, we allow ourselves to have time for that. Uh, and that really needs to be planned into the whole Yes.

[00:42:37] Uh, meeting. Right. Oftentimes, like you said, you kind of find yourself just rushed at the end and it's just like,

[00:42:43] Robbie: okay, bye. Best content is more. Yeah. I think too often we try to cram a lot in, I wrote my first book in order to stop doing two hour programs. Mm-hmm. , like I had been doing this two hour talk for years and years and years, and I thought if I had a book, , I could say, oh, and you [00:43:00] can read more about that in my book and not have to say every single word.

[00:43:04] And so similarly today, like we're not, I haven't, I mean, literally, I almost, you know, 20% of the book is on breakout Ri, so we, we scratch the surface of it, but it gets people the information to realize that there is a new way and then they can go investigate and DIY on their own or seek out support if they need it.

[00:43:22] But yeah, I, I, there's a lot of.

[00:43:25] Sarah: Yeah. And since you said less content is more. Right. I think also, uh, a point you made is like, don't, don't hide behind the slides. Mm-hmm. , especially if, if we're talking about community calls and, and not, you know, some kind of corporate settings. So definitely, yeah. That's one big one for me.

[00:43:46] It's like yeah, the, whenever you can show up on the camera and not behind the slide. Yeah. Yeah. Amazing. Wonderful. Well, please do share, uh, again, the name of your [00:44:00] book and that, uh, p d f that people can download and look at your videos to go and dive deeper.

[00:44:07] Robbie: Yeah. So, um, the book is called Break Out of Boredom, low Tech Solutions for Highly Engaging Zoom Events.

[00:44:14] Uh, it is gonna be published, uh, later this week. So I'm gonna just tell you if you go to breakout of boredom.com. , um, after March 5th or sixth, the, the link will be live and ready to go. Um, building a huge launch team right now, so reach out. If you're interested in being part of that, I'd love a review and the videos that you're mentioning, it sounds like you've done a good job diving into them.

[00:44:38] they're [email protected] slash videos, and they're also some of the bonus content. So the book has a lot of free bonus content and the videos, which are 30. Strategy videos and my no more bad zoom settings checklist. Those are, um, one of, I think 10 or 11 resources that are, um, sort of bonus content [00:45:00] that goes with the book, though, all that's available at the breakout of boredom.com.

[00:45:05] Sarah: Wonderful. Thank you so much, Robbie. I always have one last question that I ask all my gifts and that is, what are you grateful for today or

[00:45:13] Robbie: this. , my wife , she's amazing. Uh, she actually recently got laid off and wasn't feeling well. And yet, despite both those challenges, has been an incredible support.

[00:45:24] I've had a very busy, uh, couple of months getting ready for this book, writing and launching at the same time. Um, and she holds our family together and our house together. And she, when we got married, said, you know, , you have higher earning potential than I do cuz you're entrepreneurial. And I said you may regret them saying that

[00:45:44] And here we are. Um, it's true. I I am, I've got a business cuz I had someone who really believed in me and makes space for what I'm trying to create. So it's, you all need to thank her because I've been able to do a lot of good for a lot of people, [00:46:00] uh, because there's someone in my life who believes in, what's her name, Robbie.

[00:46:03] Sarah: Her name is. Hi Jess. I hope you're listening to this . Wonderful. Thank you so much for taking the time to to meet here. Thank you. Appreciate it. Thank you. So much you could I info this conversation right? I hope you took some notes. Uh, please find out more about Robbie and his [email protected]. And if you didn't take notes, go over to uh, find his [email protected] slash videos for his 30 plus Zoom strategy videos and checklists.

[00:46:37] Uh, his podcast where I'll be a guest on soon as well, I is called on the schmooze, and you can find it on the schmooze.com. And his book, uh, again, is called Break Out of Boredom, low Tech Solutions for Highly Engaging Zoom Events. And if you're looking for others who think like you, then why not join us in the Humane Marketing Circle?

[00:46:58] Find out more [00:47:00] at humane.marketing/circle. As I mentioned before, we meet twice monthly on Zoom right now, and our calls are definitely non boring and highly engaging because everyone is heard and seen. So again, humane.marketing. Circle. You find the show notes of this [email protected] slash 60 and 60 episodes.

[00:47:27] Wow, I can't believe it. On this beautiful page, you'll also find a series of free offers, such as my Saturday newsletter, the Humane Business Manifesto, and the free gentle confidence mini course, as well as my two books, marketing like we're human and selling like we're human, and. Audiobook fan. Uh, this is just a reminder that marketing like we're human is now also available in audio format on Audible or anywhere else where you get your audiobooks.

[00:47:58] Of course, read by [00:48:00] yours. Truly. Thank you so much for listening and being part of a generation of marketers who cares for yourself, your clients, and the planet. We are change makers before we are marketers, so go be the change you want to see in the. Speak soon.

Today I'm talking to Julian Crosson-Hill.

Julian Crosson-Hill, ACC, is an ICF certified spiritual life coach and human design specialist. Julian's spiritual journey to answering his spiritual calling has taken many twists and turns over 32 years of seeking. Discovering human design during his spiritual life coach training really impacted that journey. Seeing human design as a permission slip to let go of the shoulds and have-tos has allowed Julian to create a life and business that feels aligned with his spiritual calling.

As the founder of Priest of Inanna, LLC Julian helps spiritual professionals and entrepreneurs breakthrough self-created limitation and change the world. Julian is also an active member of the Humane Marketing Circle.

In today's episode, we cover the following points:

• What Human Design is and where it comes from
• The five different Human Design types
• How knowing our design helps us in business and marketing
• How AI can be positive for Generators
• How HD hands out permission slips
• And so much more

We use and love Descript to edit our podcast and provide this free transcript of the episode. And yes, that's an affiliate link.

Ep 159

[00:00:00] Sarah: Hello, humane marketers. Welcome back to the Humane Marketing Podcast, the place to be for the generation of marketers that cares. This is a show where we talk about running your business in a way that feels good to you, is aligned with your values, and also resonates with today's conscious customers because it's humane.

[00:00:21] And non-pushy. I'm Sarah Z, your hippie turn business coach for quietly rebellious entrepreneurs and marketing impact pioneers. Mama Bear of the Humane Marketing Circle and renegade author of marketing like we're human and selling like. We're human. If after listening to the show for a while you're ready to move on to the next level and start implementing and would welcome a community of like-minded, quietly rebellious entrepreneurs who discuss with transparency what works and what doesn't work in business, then we'd love to welcome you in our humane marketing.

[00:00:58] If you're picturing your [00:01:00] typical Facebook group, let me paint a new picture for you. This is a closed community of like-minded entrepreneurs from all over the world who come together once per month in a Zoom Circle workshop to hold each other accountable and build their business in a sustainable way.

[00:01:16] We share with transparency and vulnerability what works for us and what doesn't work, so that you can figure out what works for you instead of keep throwing spaghetti. On the wall and seeing what sticks. Find out more at humane.marketing/circle, and if you prefer one-on-one support from me. My humane business coaching could be just what you need, whether it's for your marketing, sales, general business building, or help with your big idea like writing a book.

[00:01:47] I'd love to share my brain and my heart with you together with my almost 15 years business experience and help you grow a sustainable business that is, Full and sustainable. If you love this [00:02:00] podcast, wait until I show you my Mama Bear qualities as my one-on-one client can find out more at humane.marketing/coaching.

[00:02:09] And finally, if you are a Marketing Impact pioneer and would like to bring Humane Marketing to your organization, have a look at my offers and workshops on my [email protected].

[00:02:31] Hi, friends. Welcome back to another episode on the Humane Marketing Podcast. Today's conversation fits under the P of Personal Power as we talk about human design. If you're a regular here, you know that I'm organizing the conversations around the seven Ps of the Humane Marketing Mandala. , and if this is your first time here, you don't know what I'm talking about, but you can download your one page marketing plan with the humane marketing version of the seven [00:03:00] Ps of [email protected] slash one page.

[00:03:06] That's the number one in the word page. And this comes with seven email prompts to really help you reflect on these different PS for your business. Today I'm talking to Julian Crossen Hill, and Julian is an I C F certified spiritual life coach and human design specialist. Julian's spiritual journey to answering his spiritual calling has taken many twists and turns.

[00:03:31] Over 32 years of seeking, discovering human design during his spiritual life. Coach training really impacted that journey. Seeing human design as a permission slip to let go of the shoulds and have twos has allowed Julian to create a life and business that feels aligned with his spiritual calling.

[00:03:51] Julian helps spiritual professionals and entrepreneurs break through self-created limitation and change the world. [00:04:00] And Julian is actually also an active member of the Humane Marketing Circle, which is our community of humane marketers. In our conversation, we covered the following points. We talk about what human design is and where it comes from.

[00:04:15] The five different human design types, how knowing our design helps us in business and marketing. One specifically interesting topic is how ai, artificial intelligence, can be a really positive development for generators. So for. Type of human design, which are includes many of us. I'm a generator, for example, and then also how human design hands out permission slips.

[00:04:47] Before we dive in with Julian, I'd also like to mention that while I'm no human design expert, I do know how powerful knowing our design is, together with other information about how [00:05:00] we're wired. And I write about that in the marketing like we're human book. And I also dedicate a whole P for this type of information to the personal power P in the seven Ps of humane marketing.

[00:05:13] It's also the second module in my marketing, like we're human, a k a, the client resonator program. And you can only resonate with your ideal people if you have a deep understanding of who you truly are, and knowing your human design is one of those things that can help you get a deeper understanding because I really feel like true confidence.

[00:05:37] in your own ability and power comes from that deeper understanding, from that inner place of deeper understanding and this work to finding out what your personal power is. It involves vulnerability, curiosity, and bravery. Because only brave and deep thinking entrepreneurs dare to blend their [00:06:00] personal development with the business that they're building.

[00:06:03] without constantly being sidetracked with the latest shiny object or tactic or social media scam or whatnot. So really this blend between finding out who you are, what your why is, what your personal power is, and then. Also, um, you know, doing the things we need to do in order to promote our business and stand out in all of those.

[00:06:31] It's really that blend between, in a way, the yin and the yang, right? The marketing, like we're human program, ak, the client resonator is for those brave and deep thinkers, and the current cohort is at the P of promotion right now. So we have already gone into the deep waters and emerged as new and more grounded beings and beings who know their story and have now worked on their about [00:07:00] page and, and just come with this deep understanding of their worth and value and, and that's what.

[00:07:08] Helps them or helps their clients resonate with them. And a new life cohort starts this August, 2023. So if you are one of those brave souls and deep thinkers, uh, do have a look at Humane Marketing, sorry, humane.marketing/program and see if this resonates and if it's a fit for you. Then let's book a chat so that we.

[00:07:36] Talk together and, and see if this is the right thing for you. Alright, human design. Let's talk to Julian. Hi Julian. So good to speak to you today. Hi Sarah. Mm-hmm. , thank you so much for coming on and talking about human design here on the Humane Humane, you know, [00:08:00] Marketing podcast. So I think it's a very fitting topic.

[00:08:04] I'm personally very, very much interested in human design, but have not studied it or anything. So I'm like, well, who better to talk to than someone who has, uh, really taken, uh, a deep dive into it and, and so I'm really excited to have you here. Thanks for.

[00:08:26] Julian: Yeah. Thanks for having me on. I'm, I'm always excited for an opportunity to talk about human design ,

[00:08:31] Sarah: so, right.

[00:08:31] It's just something that you can't stop talking about. Yeah. It's great. Definitely. Yeah. So maybe before we go into kind of some of the specifics, uh, There's probably quite a few people who have never heard of human design, like maybe they're, they are thinking you just came up with that , but, so let's maybe go a little bit into the story of human design and what it is and where it comes from and all of that.

[00:08:58] Would you

[00:08:59] Julian: take us there? [00:09:00] Yeah, definitely. I know, I think you're right. A lot of people haven't heard of human design. I'm always surprised by people who have never heard of it because. in my circle. Lots of people have heard of it and are talking about it. So it's always interesting when you run into someone who hasn't.

[00:09:15] Mm-hmm. . So human design came about in 1987. And during that time there was a supernova that was observed by astronomers and there was a man, a c Crackower, he was a middle-aged, sort of disillusioned marketing executive, and he was living on the island of Ibiza in like really just a little shack. He had no electricity and he had gone out for the evening and when he came home there was light in his, in his house and he thought, Did I leave the lantern?

[00:09:46] Ont like, is my house on fire? So he goes, and he said as soon as he stepped across the threshold, it was like he was hit by lightning. And for a number of days after that, he heard this voice constantly [00:10:00] telling him all of this information. And that information is, is what we know as human design, which takes a number of different esoteric systems.

[00:10:09] And human design can get a little woo, but I have actually seen it used in corporate settings as well. Just like Myers Briggs has been in the past, and it takes astrology and cabala, the eche and the chakras, and it kind of creates the system out of them in which you use your, um, birth time and date in place, just like astrology to create a chart that we call the body graph.

[00:10:36] And the important concept about the body graph is in human design. We recognize that human beings have evolved since the seven chakra system was developed and that we now have nine energy centers in our body. And the body graph sort of shows which of those sinner is what we call defined or undefined, which is just means how co consistently is the energy in that center.

[00:10:59] Like is it a [00:11:00] very consistent, it always operates the same way, or is it really variable? And also what are the connections between those centers? How are they. and that tells us a lot about our physical form and like how much energy do we have to do certain things? How do we, how do we think, how do we create, how do we like it?

[00:11:18] It just really says a lot about us and I think the thing that sums human design up the best for me is a quote from Karen Curry Parker, who is the originator of the quantum human. System, which is just sort of a, a relabeling of human design with more friendly terms. And she says, you are the unique, the result of a once in a lifetime unique cosmic event.

[00:11:42] And I just really love that because it just really speaks to the uniqueness of each of us, which is really. , what human design is about, is about really celebrating what makes us different rather than the things that make us the same. Mm-hmm. .

[00:11:54] Sarah: Yeah. I love that. I, I don't think I remembered the exact [00:12:00] story, how you told it.

[00:12:01] How he, like, I just, I just knew, okay. It was one guy who just had this. Epiphany or whatever you wanna call it. And that is true, that kind of probably some people are like, what? What the heck? That sounds very woo and very out there, right? Where astrology is like, okay, it's the study of the planets and the stars and kind of makes more sense, but, but it's just, it's just so amazingly accurate.

[00:12:29] that once you get into it and you see these body graphs you like, even for someone like me, Capricorn, very grounded and yes, I do like the woo, but, but it's true that when you tell me this guy, you know, was struck by lightning or whatever, I'm like, what? How did that, you know? But it's just, yeah. It's just amazingly accurate, so you can can't not believe it really.

[00:12:55] Julian: Yeah. Yeah. Definitely. Yeah. It, it has a woo element, but if you really get deep into [00:13:00] human design, and I, I don't want to go into all the details. There are elements of, of, um, quantum physics in there because it's all sort of revolves around neutrinos, which are a subatomic particle that all stars create, and we're just sort of bathed in them in the stream of neutrinos and the.

[00:13:16] Revelation of human design was that neutrinos have a very tiny amount of mass. And so as those neutrinos interact with other celestial bodies, that mass sort of has that interaction. And so in a way, we can think about neutrinos as carrying information, and it's really at the central key part of human design is it's about the way that the neutrino stream.

[00:13:36] When we're in the womb is imprinting ourselves with that, with that celestial information. Mm-hmm. , which sounds a little woo, but there is sort of more of a quantum physics aspect to it,

[00:13:47] Sarah: right? Yeah. That's what my friend Jen, who, who's also in human design, that's what she always told me. She's like, this is not.

[00:13:55] Woo. This is like quantum physics. And, and so I think it [00:14:00] really takes that deep study to understand it. And once you do, you're, you're, yeah, just kind of blown away by, by what you see. So yeah, take, take us, uh, maybe I think the easiest thing that we can look at, uh, in this episode, and then obviously invite people to dig deeper if they're interested.

[00:14:17] But the, the four types are, are pro 4 0 5. There's five, five types. Yeah. Sorry. Yeah, the five types um, is probably the easiest place to kind of start to get people some understanding of, of how this looks like.

[00:14:33] Julian: Yeah, definitely. I think the types are always where people should start cuz they're kind of the foundation for human design.

[00:14:39] So there's five types and it, you could kind of even say four types and a subtype, but, um, they're really. So the first type that I like to talk about is the manifestor. and the manifestor type. What sort of makes them unique is two aspects of their chart. They have an undefined sacl center, which means [00:15:00] that the Sacl Center is our life force center, and it just means that their, their energy and their, and their sort of life force has an ebb and flow to it.

[00:15:07] So they're not designed to work eight hour days and work in big blocks of time and just really push and hustle. Like so much of our culture demands, they're really designed to rest when they need to, but, They have what they call a, what we call a motor center. And the motor center are what sort of drive action in human design and they're connected to their throat, which in human design is our manifestation and creation and action center.

[00:15:32] It's like how we get the energy and the body expressed, you know, through communication, through creation. So the hallmark of the, of the manifest of the manifestor. That they're very creative. They have this non-verbal creative flow, and their whole purpose in life is to initiate the other types into action.

[00:15:52] So they're really sort of the leading edge people. They're having these creative urges and these creative impulses and creating new, wonderful things, and then [00:16:00] sort of sharing them with the rest of the collective to get the other types engaged. Hmm. So from there, the next type is what we call

[00:16:07] the

[00:16:08] Sarah: charact.

[00:16:08] Can just writers, can I just ask about the manifestor? Do you know a manifestor in your life? And then I'll

[00:16:13] Julian: share. I, I do actually my, um, the, the first coaching instructor that I ever had, and she was also my first business coach and I've kind of always looked at her as a mentor. Minerva Maharaj from Star Seed Academy Coach training is a manifestor.

[00:16:28] Mm-hmm. So, and we've worked together very closely for a number of years and it's always very, Um, talking to her because we're different types and we did a video series for, for her school on running your spiritual coaching business and we were talking about our working styles and it was really interesting how drastically different the way we work is.

[00:16:50] Yeah,

[00:16:50] Sarah: yeah, yeah. I actually live with a manifestor. My, my son, my eldest son is a manifestor and yeah, it's, [00:17:00] Like they see the world in a different way. Completely different. And, and you're right, they're very creative. They're not the most easy. People, humans to live with because of the different way they think.

[00:17:15] Um, I was also gonna bring up Elon Musk, like as a, as a, an example of a manifestor, right? It's just like, yeah. They are usually very, very smart, but kind of on a different level maybe than, than most Yeah. Humans. So it's like, Wait a minute. How? How are they thinking? It's almost like you have to translate how they are thinking.

[00:17:39] Um, absolutely.

[00:17:41] Julian: Do you agree on that? I do. I totally do. And the manifestor strategy through life is to inform, because they're on such a different wavelength, they really need to communicate to other people about what they're doing and where they are and what they're doing. Exactly what's

[00:17:54] Sarah: going on. Yeah.

[00:17:55] the big eye-opening moment when I learned that my son was a manifestor [00:18:00] and yeah, he would. You know, drop things, walk away or, or leave people places without informing. Oh, he moved on to the next thing and we're like, what just happened? So yeah, inform is like a big, big theme. That's so true.

[00:18:17] Julian: Yeah.

[00:18:18] Definitely. Yeah. So the, the next type that that's really important in human design is the generators, and they're important. Like 35 to 38% of the population are generators. So, um, them, and, and another type that's similar to the generator kind of a subtype are make up the majority of society, which is kind of why we've built things the way we have.

[00:18:41] So the generator's hallmark is they have a defined SAC role, which means they generate very consistent and large amounts of sacral life force. and what that means is that they're really wired to work. Their purpose is to create mastery over time. So they're the people who are like the artisans and the craft [00:19:00] people and, and the people who just really excel at a thing and they stick with it and they do it, you know, day in and day out, and they really like master whatever it is that they're doing.

[00:19:12] and they don't have a defined throat, so they are de, that means they're not designed to initiate new things. They're really designed to respond and, and the response isn't necessarily just responding to people because that's a mistake a lot of generators make. It's responding to life happening around them.

[00:19:28] So generators see a billboard and it sparks some inspiration for them. They respond to that, they read an article and they agree or disagree with it, and it sparks them to do something about that. And so everything. around them, they're designed to respond to and they respond through their SAC role. And you know, if you've ever.

[00:19:47] If you're a generator type and you've ever had a friend ask you like, do you want to go do this? And it was such a complete like, yes, it was like a full body, like, yes, I want to do that. That's what it's like for the generator. That is the sacral [00:20:00] response at work, and their strategy is to listen to that sacral response and respond to things.

[00:20:06] and, and the flip side of that of course is if you've ever had like the full body, hell no, I don't want do that. Right? Like the, ew, no, that's not for me. That's the other aspect of the generator is they need to say no to those things and not, you know, do the shoulds and have to use in all of that if that doesn't feel good in their body to them.

[00:20:27] Sarah: Right? Yeah. Any generators in your. Probably lots

[00:20:31] Julian: of My husband is a generator. Yes. . Yeah. So, yeah.

[00:20:35] Sarah: Which is, I'm a Generat, which my husband is a manifesting generator. So Yeah. Similar but still different. So you'll tell us about that one next. Mm-hmm. .

[00:20:44] Julian: Yes. Cuz that's my type A manifesting generator. Okay. And we are kind of, I, I don't know.

[00:20:50] I think we drive everyone else crazy. So the manifesting generator, they're a generator kind of mixed with a manifestor because they have the defined sacral, but they also have the motor to the. . [00:21:00] And so they're still not meant to initiate. They need to respond like a generator, but then once they've responded, they can initiate.

[00:21:08] And what happens is when a manifesting generator responds, there's a lot of energy in that response, and they're like off and running, and they tend to be a little scattered because they're really multi-passionate people who have lots of interests. They're always grabbing new hobbies and doing new things.

[00:21:24] They're multitaskers that are doing three, four things at once and their whole purpose to the collective. Is to hope the collective gain new efficiency by speeding up processes that we have. And they do this by finding the steps that we can skip the things we don't need to be doing. Because, you know, if you have a, a process that's 1, 2, 3, 4, the manifestor might go 1, 2, 4, you know, the manifesting generator might skip three.

[00:21:50] And then that becomes the new process. And we've increased efficiency for the whole collective. And so manifesting generators really. They're kind of a powerhouse. I, [00:22:00] you know, people, I always feel like I didn't get enough done in a day. And my friends who are like manifestors or just like generators are like, you did more today than I do all week

[00:22:09] Mm-hmm. So, yeah.

[00:22:10] Sarah: Mm-hmm. Yeah. It's interesting how the, the energy is, is different. Um, definitely for the, the manifestor, like you said, it's kind of, There's ebbs and flows and, and I guess, yeah, when it flows, it really flows, but then there's also a long time of, uh, kind of nothing. Right. Until the creativity comes back.

[00:22:30] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Wonderful. That makes four, so there's a

[00:22:35] Julian: fifth one. No, that makes three. We really only done three. There's two. Oh

[00:22:39] Sarah: yeah, sorry.

[00:22:40] Julian: Three. That's alright. Mm-hmm. . Yeah. Yeah. So the thing about the manifest, I just want to sort of note the thing about manifesting generators and generators, mm-hmm. , is that together, the two of them make up 70% of the population.

[00:22:51] This is why we. Yeah, a 40 hour work week, we have hustle, culture, all those things because Right. The majority of the population can do that, but for [00:23:00] the other 30%, they really, really struggle with work. And

[00:23:04] Sarah: so how many, what's the percentage for Manifestors

[00:23:07] Julian: alone? Um, I think they're only around 8%. Right.

[00:23:12] And then small. Mm-hmm. . Yeah, they're small. And then the next biggest is projectors, which is 21. . Okay. And the projectors are, they don't have a defined sacral, so they're non sacral, which means they're force ebbs and flows, and they also don't have anything connected to their throat, any motors to their throat.

[00:23:33] So they're also not meant to initiate, and the projectors are new type projectors didn't exist until humans evolved to have nine centers, so they've only been around a few hundred years. And the projectors. Um, Karen Curry, Parker and Quantum Human Design calls them the orchestrators because they're really designed to.

[00:23:52] um, coordinate and guide and advise. And so they're sort of like the middle managers of the human design collective. But [00:24:00] because with a lot of the openness in their chart, they're really able to see people very, very deeply and sort of amplify and reflect their energy. And so I know a few projectors and they do, they just like, could really read people really, really well.

[00:24:15] And so for the projector, their, their strategy is to wait to be invited. , if you've ever given unsolicited advice to somebody, you know how that works, how well it's received, and because the projectors can see so deeply into people and they're so designed to see like processes and systems and what people need to do and where they need to go and, and do all of that orchestrating, they really need to be invited to do that or it's not well received.

[00:24:39] And so projectors when they. in the middle of an invitation, they should just do the things that light them up and that bring them joy and for projectors, ti like who they're with and where they're at are really important to them because they have a lot of openness in their charts. So it's really important that they pick the people they associate with really well, which I think applies to [00:25:00] everyone really.

[00:25:00] Like you hang out with negative people, he starts to become negative, but it's even more crucial for the projectors.

[00:25:06] Sarah: Yeah, I don't have any projectors. Personal life, but I, I, I have friends or, or, um, past clients and I know for them, like business wise, what worked the best is they, if they had some kind of assistant, virtual assistant who, who made these opportunities happen for them because of their energy of, you know, having to be invited because yeah, business-wise, well, You don't make those things happen.

[00:25:37] You need someone else to help you basically.

[00:25:40] Julian: Yeah, exactly. And that's what projectors are really good at mm-hmm. Is getting other people to kind of do things that they need to, to do. Yeah. Um, so they definitely thrive from that, but they make excellent consultants, , mm-hmm. , so they're really great consultants.

[00:25:56] Mm-hmm. . Um, and then the final type, the fifth type is super rare. [00:26:00] There's like less than 1% of the population. They're the reflectors and everything in their chart is undefined. So they have no consistent energy whatsoever. . Um, and so for reflector, Like where they're at and who they're with is gonna be even more important than projector because they pick up other people's energy so easily based on who they're around and where they are.

[00:26:23] And their strategy is to wait a full lunar cycle to make a major decision because. in a lunar cycle. As the planets progress during that lunar cycle, they actually, different parts of their chart get activated and they actually experience the entire cycle of all of their energy every 28 days. And so, you know, they, they have to sort of choose to do that with the big decisions cuz obviously a lot of little stuff, you can't wait 28 days to decide.

[00:26:51] So for the other times, It's important that they have people around them that feel good to them, that, that they can kind of bounce ideas off of [00:27:00] and come to a decision that way. They're really interesting in terms of their quantum purpose is they're like the barometers of the health of, of a community.

[00:27:09] Mm-hmm. , if you have a com, a co, a reflector in the, in a community and the reflector is struggling and not doing. , it says that the community's health is really poor. Mm-hmm. . And so they're really interesting people in that way because they are such a barometer of how healthy the rest of us are energetically and emotionally.

[00:27:27] Sarah: Yeah, I used to have, um, the, my podcast editor, um, was a reflector. She, she's now moved on to something else and I was really glad when she was able to say, look, this is not making me happy anymore. I need to do something else that makes me happy. And I'm like, yeah, that. That is so important is for everybody, but it's, I think especially for, for her as the reflector, um, that to do work or anything that pays your bills, that that is also making her [00:28:00] happy, right?

[00:28:01] Julian: Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. . Yeah, definitely. I, I don't know any reflectors myself. I, I, I,

[00:28:06] Sarah: yeah. They're interesting people, like you said. It's like, wow. Yeah. Very different. . Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Um, so, so now, now that we understand the, the different types, um, again, if we have such a chart reading with you or someone, obviously there's much more to it than just.

[00:28:27] You know, figuring out, okay, which type are you? It goes then into, into the profile and, and, uh, much deeper things, uh, the connections between the chakras and all of that. But I think maybe what we can do, uh, talk about in on this episode is kind of like the connection to the business world, or, or in our case, the marketing.

[00:28:51] Um, having this information, so once we have the reading, we understand who, who we are in human design, like how can that help [00:29:00] us, uh, in our business, in our marketing, in figuring out how we want to show up in the world. What would you say to that?

[00:29:11] Julian: Yeah, I think, um, I think human design can have a lot to do with that.

[00:29:14] I think, first of all, human design for me was my permission slip to like throw out the rule book a little bit and be like, I'm unique. I have my own way of looking at the world and experiencing the ener, my energy. And so I'm gonna approach my business from that instead of trying to do these systems and things that other business coaches like to like to push.

[00:29:37] You know, I'm not gonna slide into people's dms and do all these things. It feels icky. anyway. And it feels sort of manipulative, but it also just doesn't align with my design in the way that I operate. So I think first it's a permission slip to throw out the rule book and kind of chart your own course, which is super exciting or terrifying depending on how you look at it.

[00:29:58] could

[00:29:58] Sarah: be both. That's true. . [00:30:00] Yeah.

[00:30:01] Julian: Yeah. Yeah. So, and then I think the other part, Really playing to your strengths. Um, so as a, as a manifesting generator, I'm designed to respond and then it initiates. So I like to create long form content. That's what I do. I, I just, I don't love like creating reels, you know, I gotta set up all that equipment and do all that stuff for 60 seconds of video, and I just, I always feel constrained by that, but I.

[00:30:26] It's a blog and I love to create my podcast. I like the long form content and I do a lot of responding like, um, my latest podcast that comes out. It came out yesterday, um, this short week. We, we had a holiday in the US and so it's a short week and I'm always like thinking it's the wrong day. Um, but it was, the whole pre premise behind the podcast was I was responding to an interaction on social media.

[00:30:53] So when had posted a question about marketing and I had answered and said, , you don't need to do [00:31:00] that if you don't, if it doesn't feel aligned for you. And then someone else commented and they said, well, if we're not always out there pushing and doing legwork, our product's not gonna sell. And so I did a whole podcast on what that fear should be telling you about what's wrong in your business.

[00:31:14] Mm-hmm. . And so that to me is the classic like generator response. Right, right. Um,

[00:31:20] Sarah: yeah. Yeah. I can think of a few examples as well where. Um, like for example, the, the seven Ps of Humane Marketing. Um, when I first kind of saw, you know, the, the, the traditional, um, framework that existed since the sixties, and then for me, they started to move into a mandala.

[00:31:41] I kept hearing that voice in my head saying, yeah, but you're just copying someone else's model and you're just kind of throwing some color on it. . And then, yeah, and then I had to remind myself of my human design and say, well, that's okay because you are responding to something that's already out there.

[00:31:59] Uh, a [00:32:00] manifestor would've probably come up with a whole new thing. , but that's not how I'm wired, that's not my role here to, yeah. To come up with completely new things. And so same thing with the book. I'm like, well, I keep referencing to these other people and, and so I'm like, yeah, but that's okay. You know, I'm basically being what in my reading, and my friend Jen told me that I'm the spokesperson to say things other people can't say.

[00:32:28] So like, you know, the humane marketing revolution, it's. Enough. We need a different way of doing marketing. I'm not inventing, you know, something new. I'm just saying. We're done with that old stuff. Now let's move on to something new and, and, and kind of giving myself the permission to say it's okay that you're not, you know, inventing something super new, but I'm the one who says it

[00:32:55] So, so that, that, Kind of permission slip from [00:33:00] human design saying it's okay that you didn't invent something new, but you're just saying it out loud. Maybe things that others, other people are thinking, because then that's a, A lot of what I hear from readers, they're like, it's so reconfirming of what I already thought.

[00:33:17] And maybe you even said that. It's like, I've been thinking that all along and now you've given me permission to think that as well. Yeah. And I, I do feel like had I not known about the human design, I would've kept hearing that voice. Oh, but you're just a copycat or whatever. You're not really inventing something new.

[00:33:39] Right. So, yeah. Yeah. I feel like it,

[00:33:42] Julian: it helps. , I think a lot of generators have that sort of imposter syndrome. Mm-hmm. of feeling that they're copying or just saying the same thing someone else said, but a little different. Right. I, I have a number of clients who have worked with me who have said that to me, like, I'm creating this Instagram [00:34:00] based on something I saw from someone else, and I feel like I'm just copying them.

[00:34:03] I'm not adding anything. I'm not doing anything new. And I'm like, well, you're putting your own spin on it and you're so, you're responding. to it. You're, you're fulfilling your design. You're doing what you're designed to do. Yeah. Because you do have, you do have a unique perspective, and so when you see something and you respond to it, you are bringing your own uniqueness to it, right?

[00:34:23] Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. The other thing I, I learned, um, is, is also the, the idea. I always thought, since I'm an introvert, I'm supposed to be just one-on-one. Right? It's like, okay, yeah, I'm introvert. I don't like people. I'm supposed to be just working one-on-one where my design actually says, says otherwise. It's like, no, you're, I.

[00:34:45] Meant to do work one too many. And, and so really just kind of fully stepping into that and saying, oh yeah, I actually enjoy the one too many, even if I'm an introvert. And finding ways of doing that that [00:35:00] still respects my introversion, uh, has been a huge aha for, for me as well. Yeah, I think the. Point I wanted to bring up is, is what we discussed, uh, on the last Humane marketing circle.

[00:35:11] This, this new technology, um, you know, AI that is now everywhere. Um, you made a really good point about how that is also gonna, you know, there's obviously ethical questions that you brought up and, and, but you also said, well, it can be helpful for generators especially. So kind of talk to that, uh, point a little.

[00:35:35] Julian: Yeah, I think AI as a tool to just write stuff and put it out there is not there. And I think that it has a lot of ethical, um, issues, you know, not least of which is, is that AI even putting accurate information out there? Cuz you don't really know what, what data it sourced to write this article. Right.

[00:35:55] But, As someone who's designed to respond, if I have the [00:36:00] AI suggest a title to me or suggest an intro paragraph or something, and then I can use my design to respond to that and kind of be like, oh, this is what I want to talk about. Um, that works really well. I like to read a lot of articles to do that.

[00:36:15] But AI can do it a lot more, you know, efficiently it may be than like going and reading a bunch of articles. I'm just someone who really likes to read and I skim a lot of things. Um, I, I think this might manifest our generator side kind of coming out and really like having a lot of interest and looking at a lot of things.

[00:36:34] But for people who are generator types and want to respond, having the AI. Create a prompt for you is a really great way to sort of get those creative juices going.

[00:36:45] Sarah: Mm-hmm. . Yeah. As you were talking, I was just thinking like most of the people that I've taken through the, the marketing, like we're human program, where we talk also about human design and the, the p for personal [00:37:00] power, most of them have been kind of like probably forties plus.

[00:37:04] Mm-hmm. , um, do you, Feel like the, the, the younger generation, are they coming to human design earlier than maybe our generation? Whereas like, you know, we've lived through this whole life and now we're like, oh, okay, now I get it. Is the new generation waking up earlier to kind of figuring out who they are?

[00:37:27] Julian: I think that's a great question and I don't know if I could answer that because so many of my clients are, you know, our age. Um, and I think it's because I work with spiritual entrepreneurs and a lot of those tend to be, people have had a certain amount of lived experience and they come to human design as part of that lived experience.

[00:37:46] I certainly hope so. Um, I know. Being a newer system, I definitely see a lot more human design out on the internet. I see a lot of YouTube videos. I see a lot more people talking about human design. So I [00:38:00] definitely think there's greater awareness than there was. Mm-hmm. . But whether young people are really adopting it yet or not, I'm not, I'm not real sure.

[00:38:09] Sarah: Yeah. And kind of another thing I'm also, uh, thinking of, um, I read, or maybe I was also in one of the videos of, of. Let's the, the other guy's name that Raj? No, not Guru. No, not Guru. Oh, RA

[00:38:27] Julian: Rhu. Yeah. Ra, yeah, that's actually, yeah. Yeah, that's Alan c Crackower. He changed his name after. Oh,

[00:38:32] Sarah: that's, that's the same guy.

[00:38:33] Now I get . Yeah. So is he now Ra Guru? No. Uru. Okay. Yeah. Oh, that's the same guy. Okay. So yeah, he was saying that. He sees that this, the new generation, uh, the young generation, there's gonna be more manifestors coming, uh, to the world. Um, and it kind of like, I really truly believe that [00:39:00] as well in terms of, you know, the creativity that is, is more up and coming.

[00:39:07] Have you heard any, anything similar to

[00:39:09] Julian: in those things? I haven't heard that, but it wouldn't surprise me because one of the things that, that Karen Curry Parker teaches in Quantum Human Design when we talk about conditioning is that energetic patterns tend to skip generations. Mm-hmm. . So if you're a manifestor, you're more likely to have generator.

[00:39:25] Or other type kids than manifestor kids. So there's a lot of US generators out there in the world right now. So we're probably having projectors and manifestors rather than more generators. Mm-hmm. So I definitely could see that being a shift that could happen.

[00:39:39] Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. And then I guess also, if you draw the parallel with astrology and seeing that we're.

[00:39:47] Or I think going into the age of Aquarius, uh, it would make a lot of sense as well. Cause that would be more aligned with the manifestor, eer energy as well versus kind of the, [00:40:00] uh, what were we in now? I, as you can tell, I'm

[00:40:03] Julian: just Pisces. Yeah. Pi, we were in Pisces. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:40:06] Sarah: So like I can see. Being true that there is more creative energy coming in in that.

[00:40:14] Yeah, that'd be very,

[00:40:15] Julian: yeah, I definitely think so. There's another sort of tradition that looks at or is of human time as isis a si, a Cyrus and hos with like, you know, Early human history was, had a lot of matriarchy and goddess religion and then we moved into patriarchy and sort of very masculine. And now we're coming back to like the pendulum swinging back to balance in, in the ho era is supposed to be very androgynous and we're seeing lots more.

[00:40:41] Like kids coming out non-binary and trans. Right. And we're just really seeing that like creative and more like fluid. Mm-hmm. energy, um, coming about now. So I think that's very exciting.

[00:40:53] Sarah: Yeah, it is. It really is. Because I, in, in a way that's very aligned also with [00:41:00] what, what we're trying to do with humane marketing or humane business building is kind of like this, you know, being and doing and heart and mind and, and I feel.

[00:41:11] that kind of energy is more open to that rather than the, you know, the generator kind of like, let's just work eight hours a day and, and hustle our way through, through life. Um, energy.

[00:41:23] Julian: Yeah. Yeah, definitely. Definitely. And I, I, and I, I, I don't think that generators are necessarily bad for doing that. I just think.

[00:41:32] They allowed their type and their, their thing because I, I see a lot of generators. They have the ability to hustle, but do any of us really like it? like, because, so it's sort of like we got off, like we got off on the wrong track somewhere because we're supposed to listen to that sacral response and not be doing things that don't light us up.

[00:41:53] So we build a whole society with a pattern of working that doesn't really excite any of us. And so, you know, it's [00:42:00] definitely broken. . And the

[00:42:01] Sarah: funny thing is this is only now people are only now starting to realize it thanks to the break we had with Covid. Because once you're in the hustle and you're just like constantly hustling, you don't even think, oh, I'm hustling

[00:42:17] Right? It's only if you take a break and step back and you're like, oh my God, I'm tired. I don't wanna do that anymore.

[00:42:24] Julian: Yeah, it's almost like addictive. Like all that adrenaline and stress hormone gets going and it's, it's really sort of, you know, yeah. Really addictive. We, we have trouble just saying Stop

[00:42:34] Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. And I think you're right. It's that pendulum that has to somehow find its balance now, like not completely one thing or or the other. Yeah. Yeah. Um, where would you say people should start? If they're curious about human design, like where should they start with finding out?

[00:42:58] Julian: Well, there's a a lot of [00:43:00] resources that you can do, so you could, you could get a reading from a human design specialist or analyst, and that's always really helpful to understand.

[00:43:07] I usually recommend that people start with three aspects of their human design, which is the type and strategy, which we kind of briefly talked about. Authority is the second piece, which is sort of the other half of your decision making apparatus, and then finally profile, which. , I think you hinted at it a little bit, talking about being an introvert and needing to work with groups of people and things like that.

[00:43:28] Because profile really determines whether we're designed to learn most of our life lessons personally, uh, through our own experiences or trans personally through our experiences with other people. And so those three to me are sort of the keys. Of the human design, they're like the building blocks, and if you understand those, then you can go deeper.

[00:43:48] So get a reading that that covers those things, which I offer them. Lots of people offer them, and if you're just really interested in learning more, I find that Karen Curry Parker's Quantum Human [00:44:00] Design is much more approachable for people than the original human design by raw, who all Karen has really done is renamed things and give them more friendly names because, Raw has said that human design, the, the vocabulary of human design was designed for the conditioning conditioned human beings.

[00:44:19] So it was sort of designed to shock people out. of their complacency and their social conditioning, uh, you know, listening to all the shoulds and have tos. Whereas Karen has created a more expansive vocabulary for people who are starting that deconditioning and are ready to kind of take it to the next level.

[00:44:36] So I think Karen's stuff really inspiring, and she does a lot of YouTube videos on all kinds of topics. You know, if you want to know how your human design affects creativity, Karen's probably got a video. Um, I've taken certifications with Karen and I think she's a fantastic human design

[00:44:54] Sarah: teacher.

[00:44:54] Wonderful. Yeah. I had hadn't known about her, but it's true that Ragu is, is [00:45:00] kind of like, has this kind of edgy , uh, approach to it A little bit. It's just kind of like, Come on, you guys . Yeah. Yeah. So, uh, wonderful. Yeah,

[00:45:11] Julian: and definitely, yeah, definitely Karen's more gen, Karen's more gentle. She's a little more, more gentle than anything

[00:45:16] Sarah: That's good. And you are of course, too, so Yeah. We'll, we'll put a link into the show notes for your website and, and offering. And uh, yeah, this has been amazing. Obviously, like you said, we could be talking hours and hours about human design, so we really just. Touched the surface, but I hope it's been helpful to listeners.

[00:45:39] So again, if you want to find out more, definitely check out Julian's website and, uh, and do look at the, at the YouTube videos and, and it's just kind of like, yeah, take a deep dive into human design because it's really fascinating. Thank you so much, Julian, for being here. I always have one last question and that is, what are you [00:46:00] grateful for today?

[00:46:01] Or

[00:46:01] Julian: this. . Oh wow. What am I grateful for? So I'm, I'm grateful for being able to do things like this, like go get online and be able to talk about these things that light me up and excite me, and hopefully that peop other people can benefit from. I'm just really grateful that we have this tool, this amazing tool called the Internet where I could be talking to someone in Switzerland about human design.

[00:46:25] Sarah: It is amazing, isn't it? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And, and, and I, yeah, I agree that it's, it's kind of like. You pick these passions and then you find people that you can talk about them, uh, and make that your living. That is just, yeah. It's amazing. Yeah. So agree with you. Thank you Internet, and thank you Julian, for talking to us about, uh, human design.

[00:46:50] Uh, I really, really appreciate it. And, um, of course we see each other again in the Humane Marketing circle, so thank

[00:46:57] Julian: you. Yeah. Thank you for having me. This has [00:47:00] been a lot of fun and like I, I love to talk about human design, so I've pretty much never turned down an invite to do that. ,

[00:47:08] Sarah: wonderful. See you soon.

[00:47:17] I hope this resonated and I hope it got you curious about finding out your human design. So again, you can find out more about Julian and his work and human design at www priest of. So that's priest of I N A N N a.com. I'm sure there's a story behind that and I forgot to ask him, so I'll have to find out since, like I said, he's, uh, Julian is also a member of our humane marketing circle, so you can, uh, find out more about him there.

[00:47:54] You can connect with. On LinkedIn, Julian Crosson Hill, or if you'd like to [00:48:00] meet him in person, why not find out more about the Humane Marketing Circle where you find very interesting human beings, just like Julian. Um, and that's at humane.marketing forwards. Slash circle, you find the show notes of this [email protected] slash H 1 59, and on this beautiful page, you'll also find a series of free offers, such as my Saturday newsletter, the Humane Business Manifesto, and the free gentle confidence mini course, as well as my two books, marketing like we're human and selling like we're human.

[00:48:37] Thanks so much for listening and being part of a generation of marketers who cares for yourself, your clients, and the planet. We are change makers before we are marketers. So now go be the change you want to see in the world. Speak soon.[00:49:00]

Today's conversation fits under the P of Passion

If you're a regular here, you know that I'm organizing the conversations around the 7Ps of the Humane Marketing Mandala.
(If you're new here and don't know what I'm talking about you can download your 1page marketing plan with the Humane Marketing version of the 7 Ps of Marketing at humane.marketing/1page. It comes with 7 email prompts to really help you reflect on these different Ps).

In today's solo episode, I'll dive into the P of passion, and figuring out your WHY:

• The 17 Sustainable Development Goals and what they are
• Why they can help us figure out our WHY
• How to take those big global goals and apply them to our own personal, human level
• Why we're sometimes stuck on our journey to finding our why - and what to do in that case
• And so much more

Sarah's Resources

(FREE) Sarah's One Page Marketing Plan

(FREE) Sarah Suggests Newsletter

(FREE) The Humane Business Manifesto

(FREE) Gentle Confidence Mini-Course

Marketing Like We're Human - Sarah's book

The Humane Marketing Circle

Authentic & Fair Pricing Mini-Course

Podcast Show Notes

We use Descript to edit our episodes and it's fantastic!

Email Sarah at [email protected]

Thanks for listening!

 

After you listen, check out Humane Business Manifesto, an invitation to belong to a movement of people who do business the humane and gentle way and disrupt the current marketing paradigm. You can download it for free at this page. There's no opt-in. Just an instant download.

Are you enjoying the podcast?  The Humane Marketing show is listener-supported—I'd love for you to become an active supporter of the show and join the Humane Marketing Circle. You will be invited to a private monthly Q&A call with me and fellow Humane Marketers -  a safe zone to hang out with like-minded conscious entrepreneurs and help each other build our business and grow our impact.  — I'd love for you to join us! Learn more at humane.marketing/circle

Don't forget to subscribe to the show on iTunes or on Android to get notified for all my future shows and why not sign up for my weekly(ish) "Sarah Suggests Saturdays", a round-up of best practices, tools I use, books I read, podcasts, and other resources.

Raise your hand and join the Humane Business Revolution.

Warmly,

Sarah

Imperfect Transcript of the show

We use and love Descript to edit our podcast and provide this free transcript of the episode. And yes, that's an affiliate link.

Ep 157

[00:00:00] Hello, humane marketers. Welcome back to the Humane Marketing Podcast, the place to be for the generation of marketers that cares. This is a show where we talk about running your business in a way that feels good to you, is aligned with your values, and also resonates with today's conscious customers because it's humane, ethical, and non-pushy.

[00:00:23] I'm Sarah z Croce, your hippie turn business coach for quietly rebellious entrepreneurs and marketing impact by. Mama Bear of the Humane Marketing Circle and renegade author of marketing like we're human and selling like we're human. If after listening to the show for a while, you are ready to move on to the next level and start implementing and would welcome a community of like-minded, quietly rebellious entrepreneurs who discuss with transparency.

[00:00:52] Works and what doesn't work in business, then we'd love to welcome you in our humane marketing circle. If you're picturing your [00:01:00] typical Facebook group, let me paint a new picture for you. This is a closed community of like-minded entrepreneurs from all over the world who come together once per month in a Zoom circle workshop to hold each other accountable and build their business.

[00:01:15] Sustainable way we share with transparency and vulnerability, what works for us and what doesn't work, so that you can figure out what works for you instead of keep throwing spaghetti on the wall and seeing what sticks. Find out more at humane.marketing/circle, and if you prefer one-on-one support from me.

[00:01:37] My humane business Coaching could be just what you need, whether it's for your marketing, sales, general, business building, or help. Idea like writing a book. I'd love to share my brain and my heart with you together with my almost 15 years business experience and help you grow a sustainable business that is joyful and sustainable.

[00:01:58] If you love this [00:02:00] podcast, wait until I show you my mama bear qualities as my one-on-one client can find out [email protected] slash. And finally, if you are a Marketing Impact pioneer and would like to bring Humane Marketing to your organization, have a look at my offers and workshops on my [email protected].

[00:02:27] Hello, my friends. Welcome back. Today I'm recording a solo episode, and today's conversation fits under the P of Passion. So the first P, if you're a regular here, you know that I'm organizing the conversations around the seven Ps of the Humane Marketing Mandala. And if you're new here and don't know what I'm talking about, you can download your one page marketing plan with the humane marketing version of the seven Ps of marketing.

[00:02:55] humane.marketing/one [00:03:00] page, the number one and the wordage. It comes with seven email prompts to really help you reflect on these different Ps for your business. So in today's solo episode, I'll dive into the P of passion, the first P and um, help you or. Hopefully plant some seeds to help you figure out your why.

[00:03:26] I'll be talking about the 17 sustainable development goals and what they are, why they can help us figure out our why. , how to take those big global goals and apply them to our own personal human level. Why we're sometimes stuck on our journey to finding out our why and what to do in that case. Okay.

[00:03:52] This is usually the part where I introduce my guest, but since it's just me today, I'll just introduce myself [00:04:00] again. I'm Sarah Z, as you know, the host of this podcast and founder of the Humane Marketing Revolution. I've grown up in this online marketing space, having founded my first LinkedIn consulting business in 2008.

[00:04:16] Running and marketing this business for over a decade. Experiencing the rough world out there inspired me to create a global movement that encourages people to bring more empathy and kindness to business and marketing. That is my why. I call myself a hippie turn business coach because I've grown up in a small commun.

[00:04:40] Here in Switzerland, which I talk about in my marketing, like we're human book. I also call myself the Mama Bear of our Humane Marketing Circle, our community of change makers and marketers who want to do marketing differently. and are part of this generation of marketers who [00:05:00] cares personality-wise, I'm a non-conformist and do business my way.

[00:05:06] Even if sometimes that's, it's hard because everybody else does it differently. And so I have to keep reminding myself, but no, that way doesn't feel good. I'll do it my way. I'm a card caring, introvert and proud. So that's something I knew about myself. Uh, For, yeah, years and years. Um, what I did discover, um, fairly recently, a few years ago, is that I'm also an H S P, so highly sensitive person.

[00:05:38] I'm a Capricorn, I'm a generator in the human design. I'm a type four in the Enneagram, and I'm an I N F J in the Meyers Bricks, uh, personality assessments. As I said, I'm like a mama bear. I am gentle but fierce. I do no harm, [00:06:00] but I take no shit either , so I really feel like this mama bear in front of the cave who's, you know, really protect, protecting her cubs.

[00:06:10] That's how I feel like with my clients and, and the humane marketing circle. I'm extremely loyal and all my one-on-one clients have become good friends. So well, that's my self introduction for today. So with that, let's jump right in and talk about this idea of using the 17 sustainable development goals for or to help us find our Y.

[00:06:37] So recently on a discovery call for the marketing like we're human program. A future participant asked me about the why. So the discovery of our why is part of the first module of that program and the P of passion. So she told me that she'd been on other programs where they just told her to, you know, figure [00:07:00] out your why.

[00:07:01] and she's like, well, yeah, obviously we all kind of know now that this is part of, you know, our business and, and our marketing. But she's like, well, I felt so lost. How, how do you go about this, Sarah? Like, are you gonna help us , you know, beyond just telling us, well, now go figure it out, because it's obviously easier said than done.

[00:07:25] And so that's when I mentioned that, uh, I use. Uh, among other things I used the 17 sustainable development goals to look at our why and, um, that's what I want to explain in this episode. . So let's start with the definition of the 17 sustainable development goals. So the 17 SDGs were adopted by the United Nations in 2015 as a universal call to action to end poverty, [00:08:00] protect the planet, and ensure that all people enjoy peace and prosperity.

[00:08:05] So these are big goals on, you know, government. Type of goals, uh, country level type of goals. But again, I'll show you in a bit how we can use them and apply them to our human level. So let me read you the 17 sustainable Development goals. First one is no poverty. The second one is zero hunger. Third is good health and wellbeing.

[00:08:30] Four is quality education, five is gender equality. Six is clean water and sanitation. seven is affordable and clean energy. Eight is decent work in economic growth. Nine is industry innovation and infrastructure. 10 is reduced inequalities. 11 is sustainable cities and communities. 12, responsible consumption and production.[00:09:00]

[00:09:00] 13, climate action. 14. Life below water, 15, life on land. 16, peace, justice, and strong institutions. And 17 partnerships for the goals. So these. The 17 sustainable, uh, development goals. You can also go actually over to, uh, the global goals.org/goals website and, uh, have a look at the more information about these 17 goals.

[00:09:33] And it comes with, um, kind of nice pictograms for each of the goals. So, As solo printers, coaches, healers, service professionals, these goals can obviously sound huge and overwhelming. And we might be thinking, well, how does this apply to me? What kind of difference can I make on my little one-on-one working with clients type [00:10:00] of business?

[00:10:01] But the idea is not to make one of these goals. Our goal. Instead, what I ask participants of the marketing like we're human program, is to look at these goals and think about which one or two most resonate with them or with their ideal clients. What's the one thing that's most important to them, or in this case to you, dear listener, is that gender equality?

[00:10:31] Is it good health and wellbeing? Is it to end poverty? , which one, of course, they're all important, but as change makers, we usually resonate more with one than others. For me, for example, it's decent work and economic growth. , so that's number eight. And the second one would be partnerships for the goals. So yeah, I noticed [00:11:00] that for myself, I want to make a difference and change the way we market so that we can use business as a lever for good.

[00:11:09] Of course, I also care about zero hunger. , but it's just not in my zone of genius. I have no experience in that field. Um, I care strongly, but it's not where I can personally make an impact given the, yeah, the background and experience that I have. and my ideal clients struggle with sharing their gifts and therefore can use my help so that we all generate more economic growth together.

[00:11:40] So that's why I feel strongly about the goal, decent work and economic growth. I feel like I, we, if we all had decent work that we love, the world would be a better place. business really can help to make a change for good. So something [00:12:00] that I want to promote. I also believe in a new perspective on work, which is focused on being more human and creating lives instead of just working and working and hustling and all of that.

[00:12:16] and knowing more about myself. So that's has more to do with the personal power. P I'm a Capricorn, and so work in its largest sense is my topic. That's what I'm here to do in this lifetime. Um, . I just notice as much as I want to go into other topics and they do help me, you know, kind of with this work life balance, um, connecting with nature, being more artistic.

[00:12:47] But what it comes down to for me is always kind of like related to the, yeah, the. , the making a living, right? [00:13:00] The, the, the money as well. The Capricorns are about work and so maybe why I am here at this moment of time, um, is also to help change this relationship to work. So I think that's why this, uh, number eight goal, decent work in economic growth, uh, speaks to me more than others.

[00:13:23] So I hope you see how I had to really extrapolate from their descriptions of the un description of the goal and make it mine, because frankly, I don't really care about economic growth. Like that is so foreign language for me. But what I do care about is the way. Make a life for ourselves. The way, um, you know, justice like that, the, that, that there is enough, uh, work and that there is enough income for everybody and that work doesn't have to be such a, [00:14:00] A rough experience for us that we can care more about our work and our business and, and that business again also becomes part of the change, that as entrepreneurs, we can participate in making the world a better place.

[00:14:18] So, . That's why it makes sense that my why is to bring more empathy and kindness to the business and marketing world. I hope, uh, my example kind of helps you understand how I look at these goals. They basically show us all the problems we have in our world right now. All the things that are broken and need fixing.

[00:14:42] to me that's one way to find our why, find something that's bigger than ourselves that we have experienced that didn't work for us, that frustrates us, and that we want to fix. Again, I'm taking my example, is like I've been in this online [00:15:00] marketing world, business world for, you know, over a decade and it just did not work for me because I felt like.

[00:15:08] You know, it's just business. Business is just business. It's not personal. That's what I always heard. And, and that just didn't no longer work for me. I'm like, no, this needs to be different. There needs to be a place for empathy and kindness in business and marketing. So that's the bigger thing. That's what, you know, keeps me going to create that change.

[00:15:29] That is my why. And so it's bigger than me. Um, Because I'm not just doing it for myself, I'm really doing it kind of like, well, that's the small change I want to make. Um, and I'm not saying that's an easy process. It really isn't. It wasn't easy for myself. I, again, something I talk about in the, in the book.

[00:15:55] Um, and it's not easy for the participants of my program [00:16:00] either. It, I call it the grown zone. Uh, you know, you're. Rumbling. Um, again, , the, the, the three parts of the marketing like we're human book is rumble, uh, rise and resonate. And so discovering who you are, discovering your why really is that rumbling and

[00:16:22] That's why it's also the grown zone where you're just like, Oh, this is so hard. Um, and especially it's super hard for participants who come out of a corporate experience because frankly, in corporate life, nobody ever asks you what your why is. You are just basically, if the company has a why, you're like, well, this is your why now.

[00:16:47] But oftentimes, companies, corporates don't have a why either. So you. You know, this is totally new. And so, yeah, it, it's not an easy process, but once you have it, [00:17:00] everything just makes sense. Everything you do is aligned with why you do it, and you keep showing up no matter how hard things are, because you kind of have this north star at your following because it comes from within as well, right?

[00:17:16] It's not this, it's not this exterior thing like, I think oftentimes clients, I think that having your why is just kind of this one liner that you have to have on your website. And so they're kind of searching for something external where actually it has to come from within and it ha you have to do that in their work so that it's unshakable.

[00:17:46] That's why. So, um, , they do always find their why, the participants of the, the program. It's, it's just sometimes it doesn't happen within the 10 weeks of the program. Um, and [00:18:00] you know, you sometimes you just have to plant the seeds, let it go, and then, uh, it will come when the time is ready. So, Um, I do also want to address that, uh, on occasion a person is completely stuck like I was on my journey, and, and that happens usually when the focus is too much on oneself, meaning that there's a lot of unalign that first needs to be fixed before we can go, you know, and, and fix things for others.

[00:18:33] It's kind of like this, uh, analogy that we always use with the mask, um, the oxygen mask in the plane. Um, so in other words, we can't pick a why or find our why if we are still broken ourselves. We need to fix ourselves first. So we need to let go of the Y for a bit and continue walking into the labyrinth and rumble [00:19:00] with our story.

[00:19:01] Um, again, that's the metaphor I use in the, in the marketing, like we're human book this metaphor of. rumbling while you walk into the labyrinth of your life. Coming to the center, standing in the middle of the labyrinth and rising in that middle, finding out how you are uniquely different, rising above, you know, the, the, the noise, and then walking back out as the new person that resonates with others.

[00:19:32] that means, you know, needing to let go of old stories, limiting beliefs, gain confidence in what you're offering, um, and, and believing that that has huge value. So you really need to become whole again. Once you're whole, that's when you can go out and look for that, why that's bigger than yourself. So, um, yeah, it's really this idea.[00:20:00]

[00:20:00] fixing ourselves first before trying to come up with a why that's bigger than ourselves. Um, that, that we, that feels co completely overwhelming because we are not whole yet. So, Maybe to, to wrap up again. Um, have a look at these 17 sustainable development goals, even if you are not yet on that journey to look at your why, but, um, it's just an interesting perspective to think about humanity and where we are now and all the big problems.

[00:20:38] I think obviously they're formulated in this, in the, you know, terms of, in terms of goals, but really what there are is, these are the big giant problems we have as humanity right now, and that's what we're all trying to fix. Uh, they are doing that on a government level, but everybody counts right now. And so we are doing an ad on the, on [00:21:00] the human level, on the, you know, this is what I care about and this is where I'm gonna make a difference.

[00:21:05] And if I'm not. An immediate or direct impact, then I'm helping my clients and they are also, uh, making an impact, right? So it's this ripple effect as well. So have a look at, uh, global goals.org/goals to find out more about each of the goals and hopefully, uh, it gives you an idea and you can pick one or two of those goals that really matter to.

[00:21:34] like I said, I'm taking participants of the marketing like we're human program through this process to find their why and then make their way through the rest of the seven piece of the humane marketing, uh, mandala. So the second one is personal power, and then people, product, pricing, promotion, and partnership.

[00:21:54] And it's a live program with a video course component. and the current cohort is [00:22:00] at the P of product right now. So that's where we're talking about their offering, their service pages on the website and, and all of that. And a new cohort will start in August. So you can have a. A look at the details already on humane.marketing/program, if this resonates and, uh, why not book a chat with me?

[00:22:23] I'm wanting to chat with all the participants first, just to see where you're at and if this is a good fit for you. So again, humane.marketing/program. And if you. Just somewhere else in your journey right now. Maybe you already have your why you, you know, all of this. If you're just looking for others who think like you and want to do marketing differently.

[00:22:49] then why not join us in the Humane Marketing Circle? Uh, again, it's our community where I'm the Mama Bear and, uh, everybody else is, is a leader in, [00:23:00] uh, in their chair. So you can find out more about [email protected] For slash Circle, you find the show notes of this [email protected] slash 1 58.

[00:23:14] And on this beautiful page, you'll also find a series of free offer. Such as my Saturday newsletter, the Humane Business Manifesto, and the free Gentle Confidence mini course, as well as my two books, marketing like we're Human and selling like we're human. Thank you so much for listening today and being a part of a generation of marketers who cares for yourself, your clients, and the planet.

[00:23:40] We are change makers before we are marketers. So now go be that change you want to see in the world. Speak.

My guest today is Jillian Vorce.

For more than two decades, Jillian has been helping professionals make connections and attain their business goals. With a focus on networking and relationship development, she works to open doors and create opportunities. Her trustworthiness and highly positive energy have inspired senior-level executives and business owners across the globe. In 2003 she founded The Jillian Group, Inc., where her team provides strategic relationship development and management consulting services.

Jillian's previous work includes her first book "20/20 Mind Sight: Refocus, Reignite, & Reinvent Your Life From the Inside Out" and the TEDx Talk "The Lens of Connectivity."

In today's episode, Jillian and I address the following topics:

• The importance of relationships in business
• If networking works and whether it's enough
• How to build a community and why it matters
• How communities are different from networking groups
• Jillian's secret recipe for nurturing relationships
• And so much more

Jillians's Resources

Complimentary 30-Minute Brainstorm Session

Jillians' Website

The Widest Net

Connect with Jillian on:

LinkedIn

Facebook

Twitter

Sarah's Resources

Watch this episode on Youtube

(FREE) Sarah's One Page Marketing Plan

(FREE) Sarah Suggests Newsletter

(FREE) The Humane Business Manifesto

(FREE) Gentle Confidence Mini-Course

Marketing Like We're Human - Sarah's book

The Humane Marketing Circle

Authentic & Fair Pricing Mini-Course

Podcast Show Notes

We use Descript to edit our episodes and it's fantastic!

Email Sarah at [email protected]

Thanks for listening!

 

After you listen, check out Humane Business Manifesto, an invitation to belong to a movement of people who do business the humane and gentle way and disrupt the current marketing paradigm. You can download it for free at this page. There's no opt-in. Just an instant download.

Are you enjoying the podcast?  The Humane Marketing show is listener-supported—I'd love for you to become an active supporter of the show and join the Humane Marketing Circle. You will be invited to a private monthly Q&A call with me and fellow Humane Marketers -  a safe zone to hang out with like-minded conscious entrepreneurs and help each other build our business and grow our impact.  — I'd love for you to join us! Learn more at humane.marketing/circle

Don't forget to subscribe to the show on iTunes or on Android to get notified for all my future shows and why not sign up for my weekly(ish) "Sarah Suggests Saturdays", a round-up of best practices, tools I use, books I read, podcasts, and other resources.

Raise your hand and join the Humane Business Revolution.

Warmly,

Sarah

Imperfect Transcript of the show

We use and love Descript to edit our podcast and provide this free transcript of the episode. And yes, that's an affiliate link.

Ep 157

[00:00:00] video1868460104: hey, Jillian, so good to speak to you today. Hi there, Sarah . Look forward to this conversation. Yeah, it's been on my calendar for a while. I'm excited that today's finally here. Yeah, and we have Kelly to thank for the introduction, so thank you, Kelly. If you're listening, . Yeah, thanks Kelly. She's great. She's wonder.

[00:00:19] She's a great one. Yeah. All right, well, we're gonna talk about relationships. Um, in business, I guess, because that's the purpose of this podcast, but mm-hmm. overall relationships are important, right? So mm-hmm. , I gonna be focusing on, uh, a few types of business relationships, and you call them relationships.

[00:00:41] I, uh, in the seven Ps of humane marketing, I also call them, uh, partnerships. So to. It's the same thing. I don't know, maybe you mm-hmm. can say if you see a difference, but, but kind of let's start with you and why, why I got you on the podcast for this topic. Right on, on your [00:01:00] LinkedIn profile, you say that you are the chief handshaker of the gym group.

[00:01:04] Yeah. So what's a chief Handshaker do? Tell us about your role and kind of what you do in, in. Sure. So that I had to kind of, uh, reevaluate during covid times. Right. Chief Handshaker wasn't happening too often, right. Um, in the physical sense. So then we went the digital handshake route. But, um, in any case, so the Chief Handshaker title came to be a few years ago, several years ago, um, when, you know, getting, I think it was when I was getting my LinkedIn profile set up and thinking about what would my title be, and it felt like everybody was a c e o.

[00:01:40] It felt. . Mm. That's not really the image that I had of myself. It wasn't really, it just felt not in alignment with who I was. And so I went through a whole host of different ideas and then thought about what do I actually do and what I actually do, what I have always done and what I love to do [00:02:00] is to shake hands and create opportunities.

[00:02:03] I was. Chief Handshaker, let's go with it. And it was a little bit like, I'm not taking myself too seriously. It was kind of somewhat tongue in cheek, but also literal. So I went with it and then lo and behold, it's like, I don't know, a year or something later, a couple years later, LinkedIn featured me in one of their articles talking about how to optimize your profile and utilizing the title.

[00:02:26] And I thought, well, look at that. You know, it's like kind of, kind of funny how it worked out that way. Certainly that was not. expectation or intent. Um, I like it. But anyhow, yeah, that's really what I do. Um, mm-hmm. . So I've been, that's the one thing, uh, when I look at the arc of my career, um, and even beginning as a late teenager, I started building relationships.

[00:02:49] Um, and that has carried me throughout my career to the point that every single piece of business I've ever done is a direct result of a relationship or a. , [00:03:00] um, period. Mm-hmm. . So it's, um, not really theory for me, it's, um, it's what I believe in my core. It's all to, it's to me, everything is about relationship.

[00:03:10] Um, And so, and I love how you, that's my high level. You're not really calling it networking, you know, like, it, it, yeah, you can get into that, how it's different, but yeah, I can feel that it's somehow different than, than just networking. It is, to me it is. Um, but it's tricky. It's like this idea of a brand or, you know, as a brand who we say we are or what other people say of.

[00:03:36] Right. And so sometimes language is what, you know, the collective people use. And so the word that a lot of people utilize is networking. I get that. Um, and I understand strategic networking, I understand all that. But you know, just for a moment, you know, one of the, the, um, consistent offers or requests I've had through my career is, ah, Jillian, will you come [00:04:00] train my sales?

[00:04:01] It's like, mm. I'm not really a sales trainer and, and, and everybody always tries to put me in sales. Uh, great at sales. I never tried to sell anything, ever. I never, I don't like that. And that's the thing about networking piece, it's, it always felt like doing something to get something. Yeah. Uh, whereas for me, my whole framework for the way I show up for relationships, and therefore the way I show up for business and life is about planting.

[00:04:31] um, and thinking of relationships as assets, not personal assets per se, but indirect assets for, uh, opportunities to help other people. And so I continuously have been building relationships and planting these seeds and nurturing them for 10, 20, 25 years. Um, so it's, that's, I don't know if that makes sense.

[00:04:54] Maybe it's semantics. It makes a lot of sense. And maybe it kind. . You know, it's similar to my [00:05:00] selling, like we're human book, right? Mm-hmm. where when, when I, I'm in marketing, but when people ask me, well, what about selling? You know, can you create a write a book about selling? I'm like, I'm not a salesperson.

[00:05:12] I hate selling, right? Yeah. Right. But then I'm like, well, I do sell, uh, like I, you know, do make money and have clients, so, right. Um, I can share that. And I, right. And I think selling, like we're human is actually about these relationships. A lot of, a lot of it, right. That's what you're saying as well. For sure.

[00:05:33] It's like the idea as you're talking about, well of course you are doing business, of course sales are happening. Right. But I think of it as in terms of relationships not being transactional. Right. And so that, I like that as the idea for it's partnerships. It's, it's, Kind of, um, reciprocal. It's not, it's not just a singular transaction.

[00:05:53] And so, um, that's what networking feels like. It feels like, let me find you. And so I understand sometimes [00:06:00] there's a time and place for that, but by and large, you know, kind of day in and day out, I don't kind of operate in that way. So I think that much more in the, you know, the humane, the human realm.

[00:06:11] Like we're actually doing people. Actual people. Yeah. So we should treat them like people . Exactly. Right. Yeah. I love that. Yeah. So good. All right, well we start, we decided to kind of pick some of the areas that you were saying that there's 10 vital, um, kind of types of relationships in the business. And we, we picked out a few that we are gonna focus on here in, in, uh, in this conversation.

[00:06:38] So, , maybe before we go there again, just kind of like in general, maybe you can give an example of what relationships did for your business. Um, sure. I just wanted to show the importance and we just talked before we started recording, like all the people that we know in common and Right. How, you know, like maybe just to [00:07:00] give people an understanding of what that does in business.

[00:07:03] Like how does that help? Sure. Something like tangible. Yeah. Sure. So, let's see. Um, relationships, well, I had alluded a few moments ago to every piece of business, everything I've ever done is a direct result of relationships that were built along the way. Um, . And that's, that's quite true. So, uh, an example, um, is my, the, the TEDx talk that I did years ago, um, was a relationship.

[00:07:34] I just, I was, uh, chair of a board and, uh, we had a strategic consultant come in and was, you know, presenting and I was, um, doing this thing I call being professionally human. I was paying attention to him and, uh, paying like a lot of attention to him and taking notes and, um, was completely engaged with his presentation.

[00:07:57] So afterwards, he said, you know, Jillian, he said, I've [00:08:00] been doing this for decades, and he said, you paid such close attention to me. It was almost distracting. He said, I'm. Curious to get to know you more. Can we meet for coffee and talk? And so that was, you know, the germination of a relationship such that a month or so later he emailed me and he's like, Jillian, I'm on vacation in Switzerland.

[00:08:20] There we go, . Um, but I just found out that there's a TEDx coming up and I think that you should be, you know, included in it. So I, I have a relationship with the woman that's producing it, so I let her. Um, that I, you know, advocate for you and she would like to talk to you. Mm-hmm. . And so there I was doing a TEDx three weeks after that

[00:08:39] Um, and this was back in the day when it was like very new. Mm-hmm. . Um, so that's an example. Um, there's so many. I have, you know, I met somebody else through a local public library. I pay attention. I. I'm a huge fan of local libraries, public libraries. So I saw on the bulletin board what's going on. I always check it out.

[00:08:58] And there was a talk [00:09:00] coming up, so it was of interest and I was like, personal finance or something. So I went and I was like 50 years younger than everybody in the room. Um, which was so puzzling to me. But that's like my life. Uh, anyhow, and I met the, the, um, the author afterwards and we chatted a little bit.

[00:09:17] Kind of exchanged cards. And one of us followed up a month or so, two months later, and we just connected and began to meet regularly. And he would write to me and say, I need a Jillian fix. Can we get together? And so doing that for the sake of building a relationship and just showing up and being present without an agenda.

[00:09:38] Mm-hmm. , um, in, in really, Showing interest and just being, again, professionally human. Mm-hmm. , um, eventually, turns out he became a professor at Boston College. So then he invited me in to come and teach networking, so applied networking for young professionals as a course that I created. And so I lectured at at Boston College for six years.[00:10:00]

[00:10:00] Um, and then he came and said he was working on his ninth book, uh, and he would like to collaborate with me on it, so I was able to get my first book up and out through collaboration with him. Wow, what a great example. I just love the sentence, you know, I wrote it down like, being professionally human.

[00:10:19] That is such a good phrase. Um, it just, yeah, it shows what you, exactly how you described it, like you pay extra attention. Kind of like in a human and humane way. Yes. But you make the specific choice of saying, I'm gonna pay extra attention here because I like the human and L, and I guess I like what? The human is saying, right, professionally, like intellectually, right?

[00:10:47] You're like, sure. We, we connect on an intellectual level, we connect on a value level. Yes. And I wanna be closer to this human right. Yes. And the other thing I think is about the [00:11:00] respect level, because this idea of like, people do business with those they know, like, and trust, right? That's true. But I also sometimes wonder if the word like could be traded for respect.

[00:11:11] Mm-hmm. because, . Um, you know, the people that I work with and the people who choose to work with me, they may like me, but I hope they respect me in. Conversely, the people that I work with, they may not be my favorite person. I might not want to go hang out with them, but if I respect them, I know them. I respect them.

[00:11:31] Chances are I will trust them. I will also work. So I don't, so I feel like those words are kind of maybe interchangeable. Mm-hmm. . Um, so this idea is like the, the people, but, um, the. Thing I'll just throw in for a moment. I think that anchors all relationships, um, is something that's can be hard at times. Um, but that's to have patience.

[00:11:53] Um, you know, relationships are not magic seeds. You know, I, I often, it's like Jack and the Beanstock seeds, I often [00:12:00] say that, and I believe cuz it's been true for me, that one handshake can change a life or a business. We just don't know which handshake that's going to. . So we have to show up for each one as if this might be the one.

[00:12:14] Um, uh, and so yeah, I think it's about building relationships, um, and being patient. Um, but really the one relationship can lead to a harvest that far exceeds your wildest dreams. Um, and that's certainly happened for me time and time again. Um, but in any case, to kind of tie that into the, the 10 relationships piece, that that came about after just years of just feeling frustrated or just like having this moment of like, not epiphany, but just realization that in all the years I've been doing business and I've been an entrepreneur for.

[00:12:57] you know, I've been saying like 10 years or [00:13:00] 20 years for a lot of years. So it's like just about 25 years at this point. It's like, see, see all the white hair . Um, anyhow, and the thing, you know, so I've worked with startups, I've worked with, uh, established companies and healthcare, tech, finance, you know, in politics and entertainment, all kinds of things.

[00:13:18] Um, but the one consistent thread. always, all they, all of them have been looking for is, you know, new business. They're always looking for new business, it's always looking for sales. And I feel like that's so cliche and it's so obvious. And so finally I just dialed it back and I'm like, it's not only about getting sales, they're all these other relationships that should be treated equally and should also, you know, have attention paid to them.

[00:13:47] Um, and that's also why I don't love, I don't know what the. The new phrase would be, but this idea of customer service, um, to me, building relationships is service. That's, that's [00:14:00] how, that's what the relationship is for me. It's service of how I can help somebody else, help them or somebody else later. Um, but it, it's not.

[00:14:09] It's not just the customers. There are all these other relationships that influence a business. And so I just drew those out and just, you know, have lots of examples and just realizing that these are all relationships that do, that are present in some capacity in, I would say every business. Um, you know, whether or not they're aware of them or pay any attention or deliberate or strategic or authentic in any of them remains to be seen.

[00:14:35] And so that's kind of the. that I work now is really through this specific lens of relationships with business. Yeah. So let's, let's look at some of them. Um, sure. I was gonna start with the obvious one, which is current customers or clients, right. . Mm-hmm. . Um, which, yeah, I guess you're, you're right. That's what everybody is looking for and that's kind of mm-hmm.

[00:14:58] the one that stands out. And [00:15:00] that's, to be honest also, I think the one that most people do networking for. Right. And that's right of course's. Personally, I'm kind of like, really? Uh, like mm-hmm. . Yeah. I don't like it . Mm-hmm. because it feels like I'm just on display to basically be sold to, um, yeah. And it's all trying to get, it's what we're trying to get.

[00:15:21] Sorry, I'm like over talking, but I'm like, yes, yes, yes. Because when we're trying to, like, trying to get new, well, that's it. We're trying to. when it's about, you know, new business or it's new customers. We're trying to get new customers. Mm-hmm. and um, which I understand that. Um, but I just think there are so many other ways to influence the success of our business.

[00:15:40] Um, that, you know, maybe we could go there. Um, so maybe the community piece. Yeah, let's start there. That might be an interesting one. That's my favorite actually. So let's start really cool. So community is an interesting one, um, because just, you know, your definition of community versus [00:16:00] mine. Um, so I think starting there, um, so in general we have, you know, first is looking at the, you know, what is your community?

[00:16:10] So is it. , is it offline? Right? If it's offline, you're looking at your neighborhood of where your business is or where your home office is. You're looking at your town, your city, or your region. So you ha we all have that. Even if we have an online business. We also have a local community as well. Um, and then the online space, we have, um, you know, obviously the communities that we are building for, you know, ourselves, we're building and we're facilit.

[00:16:39] as well as the commu, the larger communities that we're also a part of. Mm-hmm. . So it's just looking at, you know, all the communities. Um, and it reminds me, there's a, a great quote from the Harvard Business Review, and I might butcher it a little bit, um, but it's to the tune of, um, building a community is not about what the [00:17:00] organization can achieve, it's about what the organization plus an engaged in, enthusiastic group of people can achieve together.

[00:17:07] So it's not. What one can get. It's like the hole is greater than the sum of the parts kind of idea. Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. . Um, and so, again, so with community, it's about being visible and being seen as a, you know, a respected or dependable, visible. Um, You know, good positive force in the community. So it's, you know, making sure you're who you are is represented in the community.

[00:17:31] So, um, a couple ways to approach this, um, is just, first of all, um, I'm, aside from the relationship piece, I'm also really heavily, um, a strong proponent of sustainability and process. Um, so always looking for, because I think sidebar, approach relationships properly, and you can deliver exceptional service consistently, then you don't have to do a lot of marketing [00:18:00] because it should be built into the way you treat all of those relationships.

[00:18:03] Mm-hmm. . Um, but, um, if we don't have sustainable processes, You'll probably either burn out or go broke. So it's important that when we showing up for relation relationships, we also have things like baselines to pay attention and quantify what we're doing and that kind of thing. Um, so in any case, so starting off with your baseline, right?

[00:18:23] So c communities like identifying, like probably writing down what community, what does your community consist of? Like who's in your community, what are these people, what do they represent, who are they, et cetera, et cetera. And then what communities are you a part. and just look for, you know, who do you belong to?

[00:18:40] What groups are you in? Um, think about how do you want to contribute to those communities, right? So think about, um, you know, how do you, or how would you like to be able to contribute to those communities? Um, think about, um, identifying, um, you [00:19:00] know, the existing values, um, within the community that you're facilitating or the one that you're growing.

[00:19:07] Um, The, you know, I would say the benefit of having an online offline, um, is I think under realized by a lot of people who think, oh, I just have an online business. Mm-hmm. , I just do my thing. Or I have a local brick and mortar business. I don't do the online thing. I think that there are a lot of opportunities to kind of leverage each other, to strengthen each other, right?

[00:19:33] Mm-hmm. . Um, so there, for example, if you have an online. , there's, you know, opportunities to look at your local community and either do an in-kind workshop, or it could be, you know, a fee for service kind of thing. Um, but look for either your local public library or, um, the Chamber of Commerce or the Rotary Club or something, a way that you could provide the service that you're providing online to help a local.

[00:19:59] [00:20:00] Group in your area. Um, and on the flip side, if you are doing something locally at teaching a cooking class or you know, whatever it could be, um, there's opportunities for you to share some of that online as well. Um, another example that I feel like might be obvious, um, but I think. Um, there's opportunity to expand on it and to be, I think it, it's, it, it justifies having a little bit of time and attention paid to it is things like, how does, um, how do the, the activities that we are engaged in locally, How do those enhance our skillset?

[00:20:39] Um, our experience, the things that we can share, the stories, the people, we can introduce all of these things. So, um, you know, so being able to, to really not look at them as two separate parts of ourselves. , um, or like that they don't touch each other. Um, there's, there's a lot. It's like, um, they're both parts of who you [00:21:00] are and therefore have, uh, assets to offer to each other.

[00:21:03] So your, your online community and your kind of offline community, so to speak, your local community? Yeah. Yeah. I think that there's a lot of opportunity to be compliment, I mean, All kinds of ideas and suggestions. Um, with, with that, I can break that down. We could do a whole day on that, but yeah. Even as an, I kinda have a follow up question regarding Yeah, sure.

[00:21:24] Sure. And, and, and networking groups. Yep. Because that's, again, that's kind of what I s. See out there, especially on, in the online world, it's like, oh, uh, you know, I'm in this many networking groups. Sometimes they call themselves communities. They really are, is is networking groups. So I guess the question that I have, two, two questions.

[00:21:45] The first one is, how is the community different from a networking group? What makes a community, I guess, and the second question is, is. A benefit of being in a lot of [00:22:00] communities versus being really engaged in one or two communities. Yeah. Great questions. I'm about to be really direct in my answer, so here we go.

[00:22:10] Um, so the first one about, uh, what is a community? How does a community, um, like similar or different to a networking group? immediately. It reminds me of, um, in the US there's this, I'm not sure if it's international, I probably should know that, but business, well, I guess it is bni, business Networking International.

[00:22:31] See how quick I am ? Yes. So I. In my, I don't know, early twenties. I was asked several times to to join one of those chapters and to be a part of it. But at the time, I already knew most of the people, cuz I had been invited by several of them. I'm like, well, why would I do that? I already know all of you guys.

[00:22:50] I wanna build new relationships. So if I have referrals, I'm already gonna share them because it's. Not because I have to, it's because I, I want to, so I [00:23:00] don't ne, I used to tell them, I don't have to show up at eight o'clock on a Tuesday morning and give you guys referrals. I would rather have soup in the afternoon and chat and do the same thing.

[00:23:09] So I, I never, for me personally, I wasn't into. , that type of a networking group per se. However, I recently participated in some online networking groups, which is how I met the woman who introduced US , and it was delivered in a way that I. at first was kind of frankly a little bit judgmental about, I thought, I don't know about this.

[00:23:33] It feels very commoditized. I don't know. It feels like we're trying to just slam it through too many, too much. However, I really tried to be open for and be curious about what the experience would be, and it was overwhelming. But it was, you know, I was pleasantly surprised by the experience and actually met some really great people as a result of it.

[00:23:54] Um, so I think. that, you know, that's two different answers to like, uh, two different exa ex uh, [00:24:00] experiences of a networking group. Um, but in general, I would kind of default back to what I said earlier. To me, the idea or like the definition, kind of the vibe of what networking is. Um, it implies that you're looking to get something.

[00:24:16] It's like it's looking for a specific connection or looking to, to receive. Whereas the idea of a community is more of like, belong. . Um, there's more of a sense you don't necessarily show, you know, show up in a community to go get stuff, right. It's more about how we can give and receive. And so I, um, I jive with that a bit more.

[00:24:37] Um, but there's nothing wrong with participating in a networking group for sure. Mm-hmm. , um, your second an answer your question about, you know, participating in a lot of networking groups. Um, you know, I think just speaking candidly, um, I think. can easily, um, become kind of, [00:25:00] um, something we can hide behind to tell ourselves that we're really, we're, we're so busy with our business, we're doing so many things.

[00:25:08] Um, and it creates this like, kind of hollow vanity metric thing. It's like we, you know, there's a lot of potential so, , it's like, you know, harboring a lot of potential. Um, but what are we not getting done? Or how could we better utilize that time? Um, and then maybe it would be prudent to spend some time to think about, you know, what are the groups that we're participating in?

[00:25:34] Why are we participating in each one and what are we kind of, um, you know, how well are we able to contribute to that group? And then honestly, what is the result? What do we get from that group? Um, and I. Necessarily mean how many new customers or whatever. I think of it in terms of you might participate in a networking group because it gives you a lot of energy.

[00:25:56] You might feel, you get great ideas and you know, [00:26:00] great collaboration, it comes from it. So, um, you know, that can be the case too, but I think it makes sense to take inventory of, you know, all of our business activities, including the number of networking groups that we're in to see are we really able to.

[00:26:16] you know, what are we able to part, how are we able to contribute to those groups? And it's probably difficult if we're in, you know, more than, you know, one or two. It's probably difficult to continue to be a, um, you know, a, a, a very active, um, you know, contributor. I would say that on an ongoing basis, you dry out.

[00:26:38] I, I totally agree with you. What I would say is that I think, I guess you could be in several networking groups because they're, again, it has nothing, it doesn't have so much to do with belonging and contributing. It has more, again, to do with the, you know, I show up and I, I talk to people. I want to get something.

[00:26:58] But I also agree with [00:27:00] you that oftentimes that just contributes to the hustle and busy mode. . Yeah. It's like, right. You should really sit with yourself and say, look, am I really right? You know, getting quality conversations and co and contacts from here. Right. And I feel like also that. There's a lot of community, uh, owners or hosts who I think kind of struggle with the quality of the community because people are, are spread so thin, they're in so many different things and they kind of expect community and belonging to happen on its own.

[00:27:37] Mm-hmm. , which it doesn't because if. Want to be belonging to something, then you also have to contribute to something. Right. Right. And that's how the community is different. It it really requires personal responsibility of each of the member. It's not the same as a membership site or a, a networking [00:28:00] group, right?

[00:28:00] So there, there's like, we kind of interchangeably use the same terms, but it is completely different in terms of different, they're, they are completely different. Yeah. I agree with you wholeheartedly and yeah. Um, and both are true the online and, um, You know, local, it's the same thing. You have to contribute, have to be a part of.

[00:28:20] And the more I feel like if you're, if you're in a, you know, in a community or in a networking group, um, and there are other people that are contributing. It's going to also make you want to contribute more, and then it gets richer and richer and richer, and then it attracts more and more people as opposed to the opposite when everybody's trying to pick the last bit of meat off the bone kind of thing.

[00:28:42] You can feel that too. And when, you know, I think, you know, it's, it's, there's this sense of, you know, you kind of mentioned about, you know, people who, um, are quite proud of the number of networking groups they're in. Um, you know, numbers can be spun lots of [00:29:00] different ways. Um, and it's like, is it better to go to a networking event in, you know, kind of old school but come home with 50 business cards or to have two follow up coffees booked the night you, you're at the event.

[00:29:13] It's like to be able to have something that kind of crystallizes those relationships that are tangible, um, and be present with them and. Not try to just skim code everything, like a just fire hose. It's not the way anymore. It's really about, um, creating. Impressions with people. Um, and I said, like I said, being, being patient.

[00:29:35] But in any case, yeah, I think there's opportunity with, uh, for companies, uh, for business owners to look at the communities, the community communities that they facilitate, that they're a part of, and then really take inventory of them, your baselines. What are you currently doing? Which ones are you in? . Um, and then how could you add more value?

[00:29:53] Mm-hmm. . Um, so what else do they, what else is it that they're looking for? Um, and then the opportunity to leverage [00:30:00] the online and the offline communities to help each other. Um, so your, you know, your local community affiliations and, you know, volunteer things and whatnot that you do can be. , um, kind of repackaged to help your online community, et cetera, um, and vice versa.

[00:30:18] So I think, you know, we could go on about that, but, um, I think that that's awesome. And, and like I said, it's my, my favorite kind of out of all 10. But the other one that I really picked out that I'd like to, uh, kind of have you talk about is the strategic partners. Sure. Cause I think that's a key one as well that probably is often overlooked and.

[00:30:41] And I mentioned to you the, the book, the Widest net by uh Yes. Pam Slim. Yes. That just came out and Yes. And that I really also think she talks about these strategic partners. quite a bit. That that is how you are gonna, you know, [00:31:00] yeah. Expand your business if that's your goal. Mm-hmm. , but also just yeah, kind of reach different audiences that you'd never mm-hmm.

[00:31:09] thought of, um mm-hmm. reaching otherwise. So Yeah, for sure. More about these strategic partners. Yeah, so I love, like I was saying, I love that you brought her book up cuz that was on my list of suggested resources actually. Mm-hmm. , um, specifically around the strategic partner section. So, um, and I love, um, the part how she talks about ecosystem.

[00:31:30] Mm-hmm. , I think that fits in really nicely with the idea of building strategic partnerships. Um, so straight away I. This is an easy one for smaller businesses like micro or smaller solopreneurs, uh, smaller businesses to think That doesn't apply to me. Mm-hmm. . Um, but I think it absolutely does. As I said earlier, I think all 10 of these relationships really in some capacity, um, are true for all businesses regardless of the size.

[00:31:57] Um, if you're a solopreneur, then [00:32:00] your relationship with the ceo. Is yourself. So that still matters, you know? Right. Um, so in any case, strategic partnerships. So, um, the idea here is, the action word to me is collaboration. Right? And it's creating influence, right? So again, same as previously. Starting off with taking a baseline, establishing your baseline.

[00:32:22] um, you know, what do you currently do in the way of building strategic partnerships? Do you have any in place or not? Where did they originate? Um, what was the result? Um, you know, would you say it was a successful partnership or not? And how did you measure it? How, how did you, or how could you measure that partnership to see if it was, um, healthy?

[00:32:45] Was it successful and was it mutually beneficial? . I think that's a really important piece, again, to not show up in a relationship as a transaction, not for what you're going to get, but also what you're going to give, um, what you can contribute to [00:33:00] this partnership. Um, so the first point is, is there, so to look at, you know, where, what you're starting point, where you starting from?

[00:33:08] The second part of strategic building, strategic partnership, I think is about that collaboration. Um, so starting. , you know, making a wishlist. Are there people or companies or organizations that you'd love to be able to collaborate with, um, and just kind of make a, you know, good old fashioned if you could have anything or if you could work with anybody, who would it be and why?

[00:33:32] Um, and so kind of thinking through that, I think, and again, I'm a huge advocate of documenting things because we often have a lot of things in our. , but getting it down on paper helps us to take action and be able to look at it a little bit more objectively, perhaps. . And then, so thinking about, you know, why would you want to, uh, collaborate with these people?

[00:33:54] What is the experience you're looking to ascertain? Or what is the result you're looking for and [00:34:00] what are the reasons? Um, so, you know, you might wanna collaborate with somebody to create some new content, maybe to produce an event, um, maybe to do a po, you know, to create a podcast with them. Um, maybe it's to better serve your own customer.

[00:34:15] right? Um, it might be that, it might be you, you've, you know, found out or you've done some research and found out that your, you know, your customer base has a specific interest, so you wanna bring that person or bring that expertise in. So it can be just a matter of, of adding value to your ex, your existing customer base.

[00:34:34] Um, it can also be to tap into a potential new customer. Um, it can be for co-marketing purposes, it can be to share data on something. I mean, there are lots of different reasons to collaborate, um, you know, to co-create on things. There's, there's lots of reasons. So to actually spend the time thinking about who you'd like to collaborate with and, and why I think is a good place to start is a good exercise.[00:35:00]

[00:35:00] And then from there, probably you want to collect some intel and start to research a little bit. Um, you know, I would recommend doing things like looking at some of these people, these people, organizations, et cetera. You know, check them out on social media, see what they're about, what are the things that they're looking for, what is it that they're offering?

[00:35:19] Um, , you know, list, look them up on podcasts. That's a, I think, um, highly underutilized kind of search engine, if you will, is to certain people that you'd like to connect with or learn more about, see if they have, either have their own podcast or have been, uh, interviewed on others. You can learn more about them, et cetera.

[00:35:38] Um, you know, so online communities, et cetera. So start to collect the information to see what kinds of things so you can educate yourself a little bit on the things. Of these people that you want to collaborate with the things that they're doing, so you can start to look for the overlaps, the things that you know, that you, you are doing, how you wanna serve your, your community, what things you're looking for in a [00:36:00] partnership, the people you'd like to contribute or work with.

[00:36:03] and then how, you know, start to have some ideas about how you might collaborate together so that when you do reach out to these people, you have already put some idea, some thought into it. So you already can, you know, say you've spent a little bit of time, I mean, obviously you don't wanna go crazy.

[00:36:19] You've got, you know, you wanna make sure time management is in check. Um, but it's, it, it really speaks well of us and I think demonstrates our brand. Um, that we are human and we. , um, being thoughtful and deliberate so that when you reach out to somebody and say, you know, I'd love to have a conversation with you.

[00:36:39] I have some ideas. If you're open to collaborating, or at least you know, I'd like to, to share these ideas with you, to see what you think, um, then you can be thoughtful about it and you've already kind of come up with a rough draft, so to speak. Um, certainly you wanna give them room to be able to contribute their own ideas or feedback and contribute to that.

[00:36:58] But I think. . [00:37:00] Um, again, it just speaks well, rather than showing up with a completely like, oh, I'd like to collaborate with you, which can be you. Code word for do you have any business? I can get , right? So it's kind of like, I've actually spent some time on this and I really like that you're doing this and I've been doing this, and I think we can potentially explore that overlap.

[00:37:21] Um, so I think wouldn't you spend wouldn't say maybe that that's like almost a step too fast. Uh, like if I don't know this person from scratch Sure. And they're like approaching me, oh, I have this great plan and here's what we could do together. personally, I'd be like, whoa, you know, can we slow down and go back to dating a little bit first?

[00:37:44] Sure, sure, sure. So, of course, I mean, you, you, great point. Obviously I went too fast down the kind of the sequence because that, that was like the end of the sequence, right? Yeah, pretty much. Because across the board always it's like goes back to the patient's thing and how no [00:38:00] matter who it is or what you're looking to do and how to.

[00:38:04] How to build relationships, how to build trust, um, period. And it's not really build trust online cuz we live in an online world these days and we're going to be utilizing online tools in some capacity. But how to do that? Um, so, um, Yeah, so we do a lot of that in the media section too, but it's the same thing here.

[00:38:22] Um, so, uh, for sure, depending if you know this person or the group, or if you don't know them, um, you know, there's certain, you know, kind of low hanging fruit things that we. Probably ought to be doing anyway on a regular basis, which is, you know, aside from, you know, publishing our own stuff always is to look at other people's stuff and to be able to contribute to theirs by liking things, commenting, sharing things, making introductions, you know, looking for ways to add value or contribute to those people.

[00:38:53] So if there are, um, you know, on your wishlist, if you started off with, you know, 25 and you've whittled it down to maybe [00:39:00] five to. So those are the people, the organizations you begin to focus on and observe what it is that they're doing. And generally speaking, if, I mean, depending. the size of the organization and there are lots of factors, but generally speaking, if you, it doesn't take a long time to start to show up on somebody's radar.

[00:39:21] Um, if you like things or comment, if you're, if you're engaging with their content, people are going to take notice. Mm-hmm. Um, and then, um, again, if we're using things, tools available, like linked. , it's then they're generally, so it's probably better if you do this ahead of time to know. Do you have any connections in common with them?

[00:39:40] Like where are they in your kind of network? Um, it's nice to know that, um, I don't generally reach out immediately. I don't always go and find somebody that says, oh, can you, can you refer me to so-and-so? I, I handle it a little bit differently. Um, but in any case, so to, to reach out to them like that. [00:40:00] But after I feel.

[00:40:02] after doing that for a little bit, if you ha you'll often get some feedback. Sometimes they'll be proactive and shoot you a message, you know, on LinkedIn or Instagram or something. Um, and just comment like, thanks. Or you'll start to see things like, I mean, this is like social media stuff, but after you comment for a while, at first you might get nothing, and then you might get like a, like, and then eventually they might thank you with your.

[00:40:27] and then eventually they might add a little bit more. So you're kind of rising up the level of their, you know, top of mind awareness kind bit. Yeah, yeah, the awareness for sure. Um, so that, I feel like some of this there, it's an art and a science. Um, it really is an art and a science and, and that's why I, I, Gave myself permission to interrupt you because I, yeah.

[00:40:47] I think for, for you and maybe myself, it's kind of like so obvious, those tiny steps. Yeah. But I know that people would hear that on the podcast and, and go, you know, [00:41:00] oh, I can just send them a message and, and say, here I am. because I'm, I'm saying that because I did that as well. Yeah. Like a couple of times.

[00:41:09] Yeah. Because you get so excited and then you're like, like this just happened. Um, in the past few weeks I saw a summit and I'm like, oh, you know, great summit. I'd love to be speaking at this summit. And so I, I looked up who's hosting it and uh, and then I'm like, okay, I'm gonna reach out to her. . The summit actually just finished, but I looked up that she's been hosting this for several years.

[00:41:35] I'm mm-hmm. Okay. I'm gonna connect with her, not mentioning it at all. Yeah. You know, I'd like to be a speaker on your summit at all. Just kind congrats on the Great summit. I hope it was a great success. Mm-hmm. success and so now we're connected on LinkedIn and that was gonna be gonna be my job to do those small things.

[00:41:53] Mm-hmm. those small seeds that mm-hmm. so that hopefully in a year from now, or eight months from now, Will [00:42:00] have some kind of relationship, uh, right then go, Hey, how about, you know, being on your summit? Yeah, it's definitely true. It's a really valid point. I appreciate you interrupting me for that. Cause I think it matters a lot.

[00:42:11] Um, and I think, you know, here's the deal, um, I think intention, um, is something that we can often feel, right? It's like we can tell when someone. . I mean, it's harder to do online or through email. Tone is optimist. I get that, but I think. , if our intention is, is true and we are showing up and we, we really do care, we are present, we do wanna contribute and we're not just simply looking to check a quick box and try to get something, um, I think that that can resonate.

[00:42:45] People can pick up on that. So sometimes, um, it can be, Hey, listen, you don't know me at all. I know this is really strange. Like, and sometimes it's just. honest about it, and just like being professionally human, we've all had [00:43:00] those situations. And so sometimes, and that's why it's the art and science and the only way to get good at that, which is not really getting good at it, it's becoming more confident in trusting ourselves is by doing it a lot.

[00:43:14] And so I will do that sometimes now, reach directly out to somebody that's a, you know, uh, a high level person because I, I trust my instinct. . Um, because I know how I'm showing up and because I'm not desperate, it's okay. And I've had the experience where I do that and it's crickets. I don't hear from them.

[00:43:34] But the universe is funny. In three months, six months or two years later, I end up standing next to them in an elevator. It's like, oh my gosh, ah, whatever. And then they go on LinkedIn, they're like, oh, I'm so sorry I left you hanging. I'm like, yeah, lunch is on you next time, . So it's like that. Right? So there are situations like that, but your your point about the.

[00:43:54] I think makes sense. And it is, that's why being kind of organized, um, and being consistent with it and [00:44:00] being patient all matters. Um, yeah. But yeah, so I think that is a good point. I, I appreciate you slowing me down. So, um, yeah, so you have kind of, um, the, the people that you would like to collaborate with, um, you know, what you can potentially offer to them, but then going a step further, and this is the, the part that I got that I liked that Pamela Slim talks about in her book, which is the E.

[00:44:24] Um, and I think this is, there's huge opportunity again, for any company, any size, to spend a moment in more than a few moments, but spend some time kind of mapping out what your ecosystem is in terms of your consumer, your consumer, uh, your customer base, your clients, um, who else do they interact with, what other complimentary businesses, um, you know, who, who else is there, who are your competitors?

[00:44:49] All of it kind of mapping it out to look at. Who are the, the people that influence your customers, and then even bigger is who has the potential to [00:45:00] influence? So it's like, you know, if it's um, you know, Google has the potential to influence them, it's like, great, good luck. Go wait in line. Everybody wants to get to Google, but who has the potential to influence?

[00:45:12] Yeah. So you start to look at that next tier. Yeah, the next tier. Um, so I feel like there's far more opportunity in that next tier than the, the top level cuz that's played out and it's packed and it's, it's bloated and kind of. Right. Um, so in any case, I think, yeah, I love how she talks about the ecosystem and exploring op.

[00:45:32] This is a great opportunity to explore potential opportunities to collaborate. And, um, and it's just, I think again, it, yeah, when, when you're looking to develop strategic partnerships, it's, um, believing and knowing that what you do, what you have to offer can help. , you know, other networks, other organizations, other groups, other companies, other people too.

[00:45:56] And so if that's how you're showing up, that will be [00:46:00] understood. I mean, certainly we're not just, you know, handing out stuff for free everywhere, but if we are genuine, genuinely looking to serve people, you will probably resonate with other people who also have that value. And then that's when magic happens.

[00:46:15] Really. Yeah, I, I'm looking at the time, I'm like, wow, we only just, you know, kind of went over two of the 10 vital relationships. So yeah, we are gonna have to have you back, but, but I'll definitely link to that block post. And like you said, the, um, the book, the widest net is a great resource. You, you have any other resources on, on your end that you want to bring up?

[00:46:40] I do. Um, because, I realize, um, this can be really overwhelming, um, for. , you know, for any small business it can be overwhelming to think about, you know, how much time does this take? You know, where do I even start? How can I, where do I even begin? Like, what tools should I use? All of these things, it can be [00:47:00] very overwhelming.

[00:47:01] Um, so for that reason, um, if any of your listeners want to spend, you know, 30 minutes with me, I would love to be available to kind of talk this through or to brainstorm. One of the 10 relationships, um, the media section we didn't really get to, but, you know, can be that one or any, any of the 10 to just talk about what it might look like for their business.

[00:47:24] Um, and just brainstorm some of the ideas or, you know, anything that would be helpful. Sign me up. I, I'm, yeah, I think it's helpful. Much. It's a great offer, so it's just, um, I'll give you the link. Um, but people know you don't have to sign up for anything. Mm-hmm. just, it's just schedule, um, schedule time with me.

[00:47:41] So it's just a, a 30. Complimentary chat that I would love to do for your listeners, so hopefully that will be helpful. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's amazing. I, I think you're right. It, it sounds so trivial. It's like, oh, yeah, obviously I love relationships, but if you start to think on the strategic level and on [00:48:00] that ecosystem level, It does take, like I tried to do it, um, with my husband and, and he is like, he doesn't know my world, right?

[00:48:10] So, yeah. Not actually you have to be in the same kind of world, otherwise you, he's like, yeah, what about like, no, that doesn't make sense, . I'm like, get it? So, so yeah, it does take some kind of sitting down and going, okay, what's the strategy here? How are we gonna approach this? . Yeah. And I love that you, you keep kept saying the art and the science.

[00:48:31] Yeah. And it's almost almo, what comes up is also the mind and the heart, right? Yeah. Sure. Strategy is the mind. It's like, yeah, there is kind of a mm-hmm. plan behind it, but then I'm gonna bring the heart once it goes into the relationship building. Yes. Yes. And that's really what I, yeah. What I like about you, how you approach it.

[00:48:50] So thanks so much for coming on. This has been brilliant. I, I really love it. Um, I have always one last question that I ask, and that's what are you grateful [00:49:00] for today or this week, Jillian? Um, grateful for I, my life has far exceeded what I ever could have imagined for myself. I woke up this morning and I had two legs.

[00:49:12] I got out of bed in my own bed with a roof and. . Um, and that was in the first 30 seconds. Um, so, you know, I have a healthy boy. I have lots of things, but straight away I, I woke up in kind of one piece in a home today. So I feel like that's the starting point and there's just layers of gratitude upon that.

[00:49:33] So. Mm-hmm. , that's my answer. Sure. Thank you. Thanks so much. And I'm grateful for the opportunity to talk about relationships. I, it's, um, a challenge sometimes cuz there's so much I. I wanna, there's a lot to it. Um, so I, I really appreciate, you know, having the opportunity. Thanks for inviting me to talk about the thing that I'm most passionate about is, is building relationships.

[00:49:57] So thank you. Yeah, thank you. Thanks for [00:50:00] coming on this show. We'll talk again soon. All right. Take it easy.

Today's conversation fits under the P of Promotion.

If you're a regular here, you know that I'm organizing the conversations around the 7Ps of the Humane Marketing Mandala.
(If you're new here and don't know what I'm talking about you can download your 1page marketing plan with the Humane Marketing version of the 7 Ps of Marketing at humane.marketing/1page. It comes with 7 email prompts to really help you reflect on these different Ps).

My guest today is Teresa Heath-Wareing.
Teresa Heath-Wareing is an online business, marketing & mindset expert who works with business owners from across the world, helping them to build a business and life they love.

As well as inspiring members to dream big and set ambitious long term business goals, Teresa equips them with practical actionable steps to get them closer to their goals. Her holistic emphasis on the whole business, and the mindset of the business owner, enables her members to navigate the world of running a business with Teresa as their biggest cheerleader.

An international best-selling author, award winning speaker and TEDx speaker. She is the host of the Your Dream Business Podcast.Teresa is recognised alongside some of the world's digital marketing thought leaders and is widely regarded as one of the UK's leading marketing influencers.

In this episode, you'll learn about humane listbuilding as well as...

• How to get started with building an email list
• How to get people on to your list, in a saturated market where we all have too much email already?
• How to create a 'Freebie' worth downloading
• What about the tech?
• What do we send out once people downloaded our Freebie?
• How do we make Email Marketing humane and non pushy?
• And so much more

Teresa's Resources

Teresa's Mindset Hacks for Small Business Owners

Teresa's Website

Your Dream Business Podcast

Connect with Teresa on:

LinkedIn

Facebook

Twitter

Sarah's Resources

Watch this episode on Youtube

(FREE) Sarah's One Page Marketing Plan

(FREE) Sarah Suggests Newsletter

(FREE) The Humane Business Manifesto

(FREE) Gentle Confidence Mini-Course

Marketing Like We're Human - Sarah's book

The Humane Marketing Circle

Authentic & Fair Pricing Mini-Course

Podcast Show Notes

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Email Sarah at [email protected]

Thanks for listening!

 

After you listen, check out Humane Business Manifesto, an invitation to belong to a movement of people who do business the humane and gentle way and disrupt the current marketing paradigm. You can download it for free at this page. There's no opt-in. Just an instant download.

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Ep 156

[00:00:00] Sarah: Hello, humane marketers. Welcome back to the Humane Marketing Podcast, the place to be for the generation of marketers that cares. This is a show where we talk about running your business in a way that feels good to you, is aligned with your values, and also resonates with today's conscious customers because it's humane, ethical, and non-pushy.

[00:00:23] I'm Sarah z Croce, your hippie turn business coach for quietly rebellious entrepreneurs and marketing impact pioneers. Mama Bear of the Humane Marketing Circle. And renegade author of marketing like We're human and selling like we're human. If after listening to the show for a while, you are ready to move on to the next level and start implementing and would welcome a community of like-minded, quietly rebellious entrepreneurs who discuss with transparency what.

[00:00:52] Works and what doesn't work in business, then we'd love to welcome you in our humane marketing circle. If you're picturing your [00:01:00] typical Facebook group, let me paint a new picture for you. This is a closed community of like-minded entrepreneurs from all over the world who come together once per month in a Zoom Circle workshop to hold each other accountable and build their business in a sustainable way.

[00:01:16] We share with transparency and vulnerability what works for us and what doesn't work, so that you can figure out what works for you instead of keep throwing spaghetti. On the wall and seeing what sticks. Find out more at humane.marketing/circle, and if you prefer one-on-one support from me. My Humane Business Coaching could be just what you need, whether it's for your marketing, sales, general business building, or help with your big idea like writing a book.

[00:01:47] I'd love to share my brain and my heart with you together with my almost 15 years business experience and help you grow a sustainable business that is joyful and sustainable. If you love this [00:02:00] podcast, wait until I show you my Mama Bear qualities as my one-on-one client can find out more at Humane Marketing slash coaching.

[00:02:10] And finally, if you are a Marketing Impact pioneer and would like to bring Humane Marketing to your organization, have a look at my offers and workshops on my [email protected].

[00:02:31] Hello friends. Welcome back. I hope you're doing well. Before we dive into today's conversation, I just want to take a moment to tell you a bit about what's new in our community. The Humane Marketing Circle. As you know, that's the community for quietly rebellious entrepreneurs who are ready for something different, something new, a new way of marketing, and a new way of business building really.

[00:02:58] and also a new [00:03:00] way of being in community. So here's how our community calls work. In the first half of the call, members bring their questions and we have a conversation about what works for us in marketing. For example, on one of the last calls we talked about ai. We share tools, but also discuss benefits, dangers, and overall ethical questions that AI brings up.

[00:03:27] And in the second half of the call, we always go into breakout rooms to have a more intimate conversation with another heart-centered entrepreneur, which is super valuable to have kind of this one-on-one or two-on-one feedback. And this month's topic is the P of Personal Power, and we discuss how. Our core values make us and our business really different from our peers.

[00:03:55] So that's the format of our calls. And in [00:04:00] 2022 we came together once per month for a call. But now in 2023 we have two monthly meetings and one of the calls is hosted by me, the other call is hosted by one of our ambassador team members in turn. So there's a small team of ambassadors, circle members who are now have stepped up and are now hosting these calls in turn.

[00:04:24] And I'm just so happy to see that taking place cuz that was exactly my vision for the Humane Marketing Circle. Kind of this responsibility of the members stepping up. That means we get even more opportunity to bring our questions and learn from everyone. We're also currently transitioning to our new community platform on Cajabi, and it really looks great and has all the features that we were missing on Trello, which was the tool that we used to use before.

[00:04:59] And so that [00:05:00] new platform helps us stay connected with each other, in between the calls, hold each other accountable with challenges, messaging between members and so much more. And really, I resisted this for a long time because it's just not my zone of genius to kind of facilitate these online platforms or, or groups.

[00:05:22] But the members have asked for it. And so we're creating it. And actually to help me with the facilitation of this community, this online community, I also just hired a community facilitator. So not to be confused with a social. Manager who's just posting questions and, and you know, visuals and quotes and things.

[00:05:46] But really, Eddie that's the name of the great guy that we hired as a community facilitator. His main role is to facilitate the interactions between members, nurture [00:06:00] relationships, and help people get answers within that online community. And Eddie studied this, so he studied community design and I'm, yeah, I'm really super excited to have him on board.

[00:06:14] The best thing right now is that if you join right now, the price is still at the same low $37 per month, after a $7 for seven day trial. So you can, will also just check us out to see it. Probably join just before one of the calls to get that live interaction and see if we're the right fit for you. With the second monthly call.

[00:06:39] And once the Cajabi community is fully developed and active, I'll bring the rate back up to 47 per month. But for the next few weeks, it will remain at 37 per month. And that's lifetime. So if you join now, that will always be your monthly rate. So now is a good [00:07:00] time to join us and build this different way of marketing together.

[00:07:05] Well that's why we're calling it a A revolution. A humane revolution. So if you'd like to be supported by a group of like-minded individuals, I call them the quietly rebellious entrepreneurs, they're also all deep think. So if that's your kind of people that you want to hang out with and learn from and share with, then check out the details at humane.marketing/circle.

[00:07:34] Okay, back to the show. Today's conversation fits under the P of promotion. And if you are already regular here, you know that I'm organizing the conversations around the seven Ps of the Humane Marketing Mandala. And if this is your first time here, big warm welcome. You probably don't know what I'm talking about, but you can download your one-page marketing plan with the humane marketing [00:08:00] version of the seven Ps of [email protected] slash one page, the number one and the word page.

[00:08:08] And this comes with seven email prompts to really help you reflect on these different PS for your business. . So my guest today is Teresa Heath Waring, and she is an online business marketing and mindset expert who works with business owners from across the world, helping them to build a business and life they love, as well as inspiring members to dream big and set ambitious long-term business goals.

[00:08:37] Teresa equips them with Practic. Actionable steps to get them closer to their goals. Her holistic emphasis on the whole business and the mindset of the business owner enables her members to navigate a world of running a business with Theresa as their biggest cheerleader, an international bestselling author, award-winning speaker and [00:09:00] TEDx speaker.

[00:09:00] She is the host of your dream business podcast, which where I used to be a guest as well. And Theresa is recognized alongside some of the world's digital marketing thought leaders and is widely regarded as one of the UK's leading marketing influencers. . In today's episode, I asked Teresa to come onto the Humane Marketing Podcast to talk about Humane List building.

[00:09:27] Theresa and I discussed the following topics, how to get started with building an email list, how to get people onto your list in a saturated market where we all have too much email already, how to create a freebie really worth downloading. How about the tech that so many people are afraid of what to send out once people actually downloaded our freebie and our on our email list, and how do we make email marketing humane and non-pushy [00:10:00] and so much more?

[00:10:01] So let's just dive right in. Here's Theresa and me talking about humane list building. . Hi Theresa. I'm so excited for our conversation.

[00:10:13] Teresa: Yay. Thanks for being here. Nice too. No, my pleasure. I'm excited too. Wonderful.

[00:10:18] Sarah: So we could have had. So many topics to talk about, right? Mm-hmm. . But when we first chatted I was like, well, you just finished one of your list building challenges.

[00:10:29] And so I was like, oh, I think that is a good one. And we actually met on a, what was it called? Exactly, something with Authentic Marketing Summit with Marcy. And, and so I was like, oh, okay, so this is the right person to talk about humane list building. And so that's what I yeah, that's what I think where we can go.

[00:10:50] But as I just said offline, I think for most people it's like, okay, that sounds like a good idea to build your email list. [00:11:00] But where do I get started? How do I get started? Yeah. So maybe just tell us a little bit about who you are and then as you can tell, We have a habit here to just dive in.

[00:11:12] That is and go into the

[00:11:13] Teresa: topic. I have no problem with that. So I am a a business owner, an online business owner, a speaker, a podcaster, an author. But basically I help amazing business owners, predominantly women. Not that I only work with women, but I seem to attract a lot of women who are trying to create a business and life that actually works for them and their season of life, and isn't something that they've looked at that some experts told them, it's gotta be this way, or you've gotta win this much, or you've gotta charge this much, or you've gotta earn seven figures and you've gotta do it online.

[00:11:49] It's about understanding who they are and what they want and what's important to them and their season of life, because we all have other people in our world and other things in our world, and we need to [00:12:00] make sure that our business balance with those things so that we're creating. Not this monster that actually we end up going, this is not what I want to do.

[00:12:09] Mm-hmm. we create something that we're going to love. So I do that and I do it in a variety of ways and, and those ways include more of a mindset, kind of motivational, inspirational side. But also I'm incredibly practical because of the fact of, I have 18 years experience in marketing now, which is a really long time.

[00:12:30] And I have worked with hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of business owners during that time. . I know that sometimes you need the motivation and the inspiration and the mindset and the personal development, and sometimes you just need someone to give you a straight answer. So hopefully that's what I bring with both.

[00:12:48] And one of the things that I talk a lot about and one of my, my key things I guess, that I teach on is list building. And it's so important because no matter what [00:13:00] role I've been in and I've been in, as you can imagine, many, many, many different marketing roles from, you know, heading up corporate marketing for Land Rover UK to working with a teeny tiny company that has no budget and I have to do everything.

[00:13:12] So I've kind of done it all. And one thing that has never really gone away, and in fact in my mind is just going to strength to strength is email marketing. Mm-hmm. , and I think probably a few. Years back when social media really kicked in, maybe, gosh, even now. Well, I started my business eight years ago and it was probably at that point it was really getting good for business.

[00:13:36] I think people thought, oh, well we have all these new amazing ways I'm gonna do this and I don't need to think about some of these old school ways. But actually that's moved. Email has moved with social media and with technology. And when you are in marketing or when, well, whether you have a business or whatever it is, and you're trying to market more options are better than less always.[00:14:00]

[00:14:00] So it's so important to make sure that you've got that email list or you have another way to contact them. And the other key thing is that often, if. Communicating with your clients or your per perspective customers through social media. You don't own that platform. That platform is not you. Yours, you are marketing on borrowed ground.

[00:14:17] So basically you are marketing on something that doesn't belong to you. And at any point, as we well know, because Instagram changes like the wind, that they can change something and it completely affects everything. And at the moment, you know, and I'll openly talk about stuff myself, but my own Instagram is terrible at the moment.

[00:14:34] Like in terms of the engagement on the post, it's so much worse than it used to be. So we need to make sure we have somewhere else that we can market directly to our customers. So in terms of getting started, it's a couple of things, and this is why I think so many people get put off by it because it can feel overwhelming.

[00:14:52] there's a few things you have to think about first. First is how are you gonna email them? And this is the bit that no one wants to think about cuz this is the [00:15:00] tech. But ultimately you can't do this without some tech, but it's not big and massive and huge and it's not fancy funnels and clever things.

[00:15:11] It's just a case of you need a system that you can add email addresses to and then send an email to those people. Now you can't do it through your normal email, so you can't do it through. . If you know you're using a business address or a Gmail, or it's hosted by Gmail, or you're an Outlook, you can't send them through that.

[00:15:29] And the reason you can't do that is, one, they're not designed to do that. And two, you have to have an unsubscribe on a marketing email, and you can't have that. That isn't standard. It has to be standard. So it's much safer and much smarter to get a system. Now, the one I recommend for everyone getting started is mail light.

[00:15:49] Lots of people know MailChimp. Mm-hmm. . And I know lots of people are on MailChimp, and they might be like, well, why wouldn't you recommend MailChimp? I describe MailChimp. Not that they would thank me for it but I [00:16:00] describe them as like, A house. So a house that was built a long time ago, and then they had an extension put on, and then they realized they needed more rooms.

[00:16:08] They added a bit over here, and then they wanted something over here and then, and basically they've built on, so mail ch MailChimp was there for a really long time, but they've added in all that functionality after the fact. And it just doesn't quite seem to flow right. It doesn't quite seem to like, it's not very intuitive.

[00:16:26] It's not particularly easy. There's a couple of really funky, weird things that it does. So for me, someone like Maite who started off basically as if they bought a piece of land and go, right, how are we gonna build this? And then they built it right in the first place because obviously they, they're not that old, whereas MailChimp is old.

[00:16:41] So

[00:16:41] Sarah: I think that's another fact, like, you know, MailChimp is old or you know, in terms of social media, old, and so they constantly had to adapt. And so that's why it's just house stuck. I kept building on other things. Right? Yeah, absolutely. Where if, if you take a newer company, well they build [00:17:00] with this current circumstances in what we need.

[00:17:02] Yes,

[00:17:02] Teresa: yes, yes. And obviously there's gonna come a point where, you know, Mala light has to tweak and change and all the others do. And they do always constantly, but it's almost like, it's almost like they wanna start again with MailChimp. But like I said, lots of people use them. But if you haven't chose a system, or even if you are using MailChimp, male light really, really is good.

[00:17:21] Very intuitive, really simple to use. But basically you need to. . So like I said, set that up and say, okay, now I've got somewhere where I can put emails in and I can email from Now, whether that's you then taking an email list that you've created in Excel or something like that and literally just putting it across, or whether that's you then creating something called a lead magnet or a content upgrade grade or whatever you wanna call it.

[00:17:47] But basically you are creating an incentive to ask them to come onto your list. Right? Because as much as we'd like to think that people wake up one day and go, oh, I wonder if that person that I barely know or just followed on Instagram has an email, is they'd love to get on it. Like that [00:18:00] doesn't happen.

[00:18:00] So even though we often have get on our list, on our website or something like that, I think if you honestly asked yourself how many people have opted in through that in the last month, I think most people would be like a few, a handful of people are opting in. If that makes,

[00:18:15] Sarah: I'm gonna pause you there, Teresa.

[00:18:16] Cause I wanna, before we move on to the opt-in or the freebie or the the lead magnet, I wanna come back to the tech because I think. You know, like you said, so many people will start with MailChimp or, or the question I have since you recommended mail or Light, is that a platform that can grow with you?

[00:18:36] You, you would say that, you know, people with big businesses are still able to use?

[00:18:42] Teresa: Yes and no. It's a great one to start with and it will certainly grow with most small business owners. Mm-hmm. , it can do an element of the automations. It has some good functionality in it and it's good. However, when I teach my course, I talk about three different platforms.

[00:18:58] I talk about main light. If you're just [00:19:00] getting started, if you know how to do emails and you wanna start getting a bit fancy and having some call automations, then I use Active Campaign and it's very. Again, a lot of these platforms though, it's what you're used to. So there are, there's Convert Kit that's very similar.

[00:19:15] There's Drip that's very similar, so there are lots of them out there and this is half the problem. Yeah, it's too, too much choice. way too much choice. And then the one I recommend, if you're going all in on an online business and you're having a membership and a checkout and landing pages and all this kind of cool stuff, then from a cost point of view, something like Kajabi could be really good.

[00:19:35] Mm-hmm. . So what Kajabi has that the others don't is the facility to do all of that stuff and do it really well. The problem comes, so I currently use Kajabi to host my membership. However, I'm at a point now where I have a guy who builds all my landing pages for me. So I have a tech guy who does all that and they're built on WordPress.

[00:19:57] And also I have some cool things like I have a [00:20:00] quiz. And that quiz had to plug into somewhere and Kajabi couldn't handle it. Mm-hmm. . So I've now moved to Active Campaign. I say now it's about a year. So I have active campaign for my emails. I have Kajabi for those other things. But when you, again, when you first get started, if you're going in the online world, the emails can't do.

[00:20:19] Kajabi are great, but they can't go to the level the active campaign can do, or I wouldn't say they can. . And therefore at the beginning you don't wanna pay for two systems, which I didn't. I just used Kajabi and I kind of thought it is what it is, you know, I'll just have to go with it. And it was perfectly fine and good enough and capable for the job.

[00:20:38] But active campaign now is much cooler.

[00:20:41] Sarah: I love that you explained that because I think, yeah, there's one thing is like, okay, I wanna plan big and go big. Mm-hmm. and therefore I'm gonna go for something like, you know, Kajabi. Which was also my move. I went from, actually, I started out with Malechi, then went to AWeber, then went to Active Campaign, and this is over years and [00:21:00] years.

[00:21:00] Yeah. And, and then now finally to Kajabi. And just like you, there's a little tiny me piece of me as like regretting the move to Gujabi. Yeah. Because once you're used to something like Active Campaign, which is built only for email. Yes. Then. Cajabi does not do the same job like it. It's just not, so, yeah, all it is to, to explain that, it obviously depends where your business is at.

[00:21:26] Malar Light seems like a good place to start and you almost kind of maybe do have to plan that eventually, you know, there's gonna be a

[00:21:35] Teresa: move. And like you said, how many of you had, how many have I had? I was male Chimp, then I was Drip cuz I went and did a certification over in Minnesota. Then I did Infusionsoft.

[00:21:47] Right. So I went like, that was, and I mean, if you wanna go crazy, I mean Infusionsoft is insane. And then I went Kajabi and now I've added back in Active campaign. Mm-hmm. But like I said, it was just for that l that extra bit of [00:22:00] functionality. If you are sending emails, if you are wanting automations to go.

[00:22:05] it will do it. You can do sequences in Kajabi. So it's not that it's a terrible system, but obviously if you just think about it, they are building a system with so many different things. So they can't put all of the focus into just the email side of it. Whereas, like I said, active campaign convert kit, that's all they do, right?

[00:22:22] So therefore they can make sure that they've created the best email side they can. Mm-hmm. But again, you know, from a money point of view, you will be absolutely fine just using Kajabi If you are doing an online business, if you're not doing an online business and you at the moment if you just want to send an email or when someone clicks something, you can send an email for that.

[00:22:42] Or if someone opts into something and send an email for that male male, a light, this is where I start getting more mixed up. Cuz there are so many, and obviously male to male light are very similar male. A light is perfectly good for that. And you're right, I think. , there will come a point where you go, okay, now I need more.

[00:22:58] But at that point, you'll be able to [00:23:00] afford more. Whereas the beauty of starting on something like Maite is the fact that it's so low cost. Mm-hmm. . So even the paid version, the start of the paid version is like $10 a month. Mm-hmm. . Whereas I think probably now because of the size of my list, I probably pay $200 a month fr campaign.

[00:23:16] So it's a big, big difference. So like I said, get started in those others and it's a pain to move. I'm not even gonna like, pretend it's not. It is a pain. It is a pain. I mean, it's not impossible. It's not difficult really. It's just the lot of work. And of course the more you have created. So when we went from well, when we went from Infusionsoft to.

[00:23:39] Kajabi, that was a pain. And when we went from Kajabi to Active campaign, it took us, well, we haven't even finished, but we spent a solid week working on moving everything across and we haven't even finished. So it's not that it's impossible, it's just that it's a new system. You gotta get used to it and you have to move things across and it will take some time.

[00:23:58] So, so yeah. But don't panic [00:24:00] about that. If you're just starting and money is more of the concern. If money's not the concern, then jump straight onto active campaign. Great, fine. Be brilliant. You won't need to use all the functionality necessary straight away, but it will be there when you're ready. But if money's a concern, male light is definitely where I would start.

[00:24:15] Awesome. I think that

[00:24:16] Sarah: was a great tech focus, you know, and it's like, because sometimes you don't get this information. Like I, like I say, like people just tell you, well, you know, start a, a mailing list. And then they're like,

[00:24:27] Teresa: well, wow, which one? Yeah. And there's so many. And I think the other thing I really wanna reassure people is I am not a tech person, like, The reason I know so much about the tech is one, I've used a lot of it myself, but also in my course I identified the fact that that is the one thing that people don't teach.

[00:24:45] And that's the one and main stumbling block as to why people don't finish a process. Right? So, you know, they might, so I can obviously talk about, you know, what a lead magnet is and how we use it and what it's good for and some of the key things you need to do in it. [00:25:00] And I can talk about your board onboarding emails.

[00:25:02] I can talk about your sequencing, we can talk about what to email them, we can talk about how to get 'em on that email list, which is great and people can get all that. But then the problem is they would look at the tech and some people are great and they're fine, but a lot of people would go a, I dunno what platform to use b I dunno where the hell to start and I dunno how to make this work.

[00:25:19] So one of the things I did in the, in the course, and I had to teach myself it in many, many, many systems is I the process that I give them, is the process that I taught them through in the course, and one of my members that came and did it, she, how old is she? She's probably in her early sixties maybe.

[00:25:41] And she was like, she'd been in my membership for ages and obviously they get support from me there, but they don't get the course. But she could have asked me any question on any coaching call. That would've been fine. But she just hadn't got round to doing it. It was like, yeah, I know what I need to do.

[00:25:55] Haven't quite sorted out the tech. And we did the course and she was dreading the tech bit and we get on [00:26:00] a call and she, cuz we, we do calls alongside the course so I can answer questions and I can literally go, give me your login or open it on screen and let me see and I'll point and go click that button.

[00:26:11] And, but she literally came on the call and was like, I could kiss you, literally kiss you. She said, I didn't think for one second I could do that tech side. She goes, and I literally sat there with your screen on one screen and me on another and you were, the video was like, okay, so when you're here, go here and click this.

[00:26:29] She goes, and I did. And then you were like, click this and do it. Which I did. She goes and I did it and it's done. And that's the thing, like it's not difficult, but the process is very weird. So again, what's interesting is a lot of the feedback I get is I would never have started where you said to start, right?

[00:26:46] And it's because. , I start them at the thank you page, which seems like a really odd place to start. Mm-hmm. . But the problem is when you are setting up a landing page, it'll say, where do you want this to redirect to? And if you haven't got that set up, you can't finish your landing [00:27:00] page. Yeah. So there's all these kind of little quirks that like, because I know the processing, cause I've done the process, it's like, okay, it's not that it's, you can't do it the other way.

[00:27:10] It just makes it a lot easier and a lot quicker. Mm-hmm. . So I think, like I said, for me, I don't want people to be sat there going, yeah, it's all right for you, you're tech. I'm not, I'm really not. I just had to learn it. But it means I can teach it and it means that obviously if I will probably talk about it in a layman's way, and I also have the opportunity to have some of these providers come in and do the training on, on that for me.

[00:27:32] But I didn't want them to because, because I've, I've taught you to do something very specific. I want you to show how to do that specific thing rather than here's an overview of the system, this is how it works. So yeah, it's. . And like I said, the tech bit's so important. Cause that's a bit that stumbles people.

[00:27:49] Yeah. And stops people.

[00:27:51] Sarah: But the other thing that you just brought up is, is there's the tech, but then there's also the understanding the process. You know, it's like [00:28:00] Yeah. You have to almost like map it out and maybe Yes. Visually map it out. And so maybe you can just do that for our listeners right now.

[00:28:07] Yeah. Like, yeah. Let's start with the, you know what most people call lead magnet? I don't like that language anymore in humane marketing.

[00:28:14] Teresa: Cuz it's just like, no, you're right. No, because it doesn't, the visual is not nice, right? No. There's, there's no humane about it. Yeah. Cause it's a lead magnet. Let's

[00:28:22] Sarah: call it a, a freebie or I actually call it a signpost where people get to,

[00:28:27] Teresa: you know a hand raiser.

[00:28:28] That's another thing I call it. It's like handraiser. I like that. Yeah. I love that. I'm interested in it. I wanna know more. Yeah. They raise their hand.

[00:28:34] Sarah: So let's start there and then, Talk through the process of what needs to happen

[00:28:38] Teresa: behind the scenes in a way. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So at the very beginning, the first thing we talk about is the, the hand raiser, the freebie.

[00:28:47] And I keep it simple, so I tell them to choose something. So the first thing we have to do right at the beginning is we have to know who their customer is. And I don't just mean like, you know, what age are they and where do they shop? I mean, like, what [00:29:00] is the thing that they're really struggling with? Get to know them, speak to them, understand them, listen to them and what they've gotta say.

[00:29:06] This isn't, you're not just trying to sell someone. And again, that is the point of a hand raiser. It's not a sales tool, which. , I know often can be seen as that way, and ultimately it might lead to a sale. But the idea is you as my perfect customer, as my perfect audience members, part of my community, you have a problem that I can solve because this is where my zone of genius is.

[00:29:28] So I create something that addresses your problem and gives you some solutions, and you have to give them something that is good. I have downloaded that many lead magnets. I can't even tell you because this is my passion. This is what I do. Like I will drop into someone's funnel and go through it and look at it all.

[00:29:46] and I've downloaded stuff that is useless, absolutely useless. And it's only just a, I want your email address. It's not a genuine, I'm trying to help you. So that's the very first thing we talk about. We need to know [00:30:00] exactly who your people are, what their problem is, and then you need to give me some very good advice to help me with that problem.

[00:30:06] But we always start with a PDF download, which I know sounds very unimaginative and there's much better ways to attract your perfect audience, but they're much bigger and more complicated. So I've got a. , it was a very big process to do that quiz and I had an expert help me. So even though it might be like, well, it's just a pdf, we'll make it the best PDF they've ever downloaded, but it is.

[00:30:27] So basically we find one problem and we give them five points and we say, this is how I can help you with my five points. Okay. So it's like and one thing that actually always comes up and you know, this podcast has gone for hours, by the way, cuz I can talk about this for literally hours.

[00:30:42] Sarah: Well, they'll, they'll just have to come to your

[00:30:44] Teresa: course, you know, well love, like, it's not a sales message, but that's, that's what it's

[00:30:49] But like, so one of the things we talk about is sometimes the problem that they've got. So let's say I am a coach that helps people who have got imposter syndrome, let's say. That was my business. [00:31:00] Well, the problem is, Possible customers or people I can help might not know they've got imposter syndrome.

[00:31:08] Mm-hmm. So what they do is five ways to help you get over imposter syndrome. Well, that's great if I know I've got it, but I don't know I've got it. Mm-hmm. So, one thing, and that's often a mistake, you really choose. So the thing that you need to think about with the lead magnet, with your title, with your, your freebie, and the thing you're offering them is it needs to sing to them.

[00:31:27] It needs to, they need to read that and go, that's me. Mm-hmm. . Whereas if I don't know what that is, if I've never heard of the phrase imposter syndrome, but what I might know is my symptoms or what I might know is the problems that I have. So they need to get quite granular with that. So it might be that do you worry that you're gonna get found out one day question mark if I read that, and whether I knew what in Imposs syndrome was or not, and whether I, you know, thought I had it or not.

[00:31:54] I would read that and go, yeah, that's me. Yeah. Mm-hmm. . So, but I would only know that and know [00:32:00] that language cause I know my customer really well. So that piece, yeah, that's

[00:32:04] Sarah: unfortunately, that's often a problem, especially for coaches, right? Because they're so into their specialty or into their methods that unfortunately they're marketing

[00:32:15] Teresa: the method where Yes.

[00:32:16] Yeah. And they're not talking to the problem. Yeah. And sometimes people are like, yeah, but I don't wanna be negative. And it's like, it's not that you're being negative, it's that sometimes the only way, you know. So if you rephrase it and said, you know, do you fear that one day you'll be found out? I know it sounds negative, but the point is it resonates cuz that's the kind of thing I might say.

[00:32:38] And what's quite nice for me and you, , I've always kind of hoped and thought that this is my superpower, is I'm able to think about who their customer might be and what their customer might say. And sometimes I am a potential customer. Yeah. Sometimes I'd be like, well actually I would never say that. This is what I would say.

[00:32:55] Yeah. And it, it inevitably is not the same language because like you said, [00:33:00] when you are an expert in your world, in your field, you are gonna use the right terms. You are gonna think of, like you said, the solution. And the solution is, you know, you've got imposter syndrome and I've got tools to help you with imposter syndrome.

[00:33:12] Well, I don't know. I've got that. Mm-hmm . So that's the first thing. Really understanding that customer is key. Coming up with something that is genuinely going to help them, that is genuinely going to fix their problem is the next thing. So like I said, we know downloads can be, excuse me, I'm gonna cough.

[00:33:29] I'm so sorry. Yeah. I could feel it building. And I, a sneeze coming as well. I'm so sorry. I never do. That's fine.

[00:33:40] Is it gone all good, ? I think so. Hope so. Sorry, sorry, sorry. So like I said, you wanna create that lead magnet, that freebie that is really good quality. So when they get it, it actually gives them something. Don't be scared about giving away too good of stuff. You're talking basics. Okay. So you're not talking like your secret source or your method or your whole, like this is how to do [00:34:00] it, start to finish, but the stuff you're telling them is really good stuff.

[00:34:04] So when we're in the process, the very first thing they do is create that thing and we do it in you know, something like Canva or Adobe Express, and they get all the templates and basically they make it look nice and they create this P D F that they've got that they can give someone. Then what we do, And we do everything to get it ready before we go into tech.

[00:34:26] Cuz that's the other thing, like I said, once you get into tech, you don't wanna then go, you're halfway through a process, you have to go and write some stuff and by the time you come back you're like, I can't remember where I was or what I was doing. So then what you're going to do from that point is you're gonna think about the words that you want to be on your signup page.

[00:34:42] So the page that is the landing page where someone goes and goes, yes, I would like that. So based on what you've written, you write some words on that and there's a format to it and, and there's a way you can do it. But basically you're saying to them, if you have problems with this, this, this, this, or if you're struggling with this, this, this, this.

[00:34:58] If you find you are this, this, [00:35:00] this, then. In this download, I'm gonna help you with this, this, this. So then you've got the copy for that and we make sure we've got some images as well. So within the template thing, we create social images and we create images for the landing page. Then you want to start writing your emails that you're going to send to them.

[00:35:16] Cuz the minute they download that, you are gonna want to automate some emails. And I think the word automation scares people. It's really not that difficult. It's like when they opt in this form, send them this thing, wait a day, send them this thing, wait two days, send them this thing. So then what we do is we write all our emails and, and again there's like templates to follow and that sort of format.

[00:35:37] And we got our, our titles, our subject lines, we've got our preview text, they've got our emails. So basically we have everything ready to roll. Before we go to the tech. So they literally have a Google doc of all their stuff. They have their images, they have their P D F, they have the pictures, the lot and things like as well.

[00:35:57] There might be a little blurb about who you are and what [00:36:00] makes you an expert. So then what we do is when we go to the system, the thing that we start with is the, well, you can do a couple of things, but depending on what system you're using and which order it goes in. Because again, it's all different.

[00:36:15] But normally you'd build a thank you page first. And the thank you page is a really simple page that acknowledges the fact that they've opted in. And it might tell them things like, make sure you check your spam cuz it might have gone in there. And if you don't get it, email us here. Or if you know you haven't found it, if you wanna link to something else on that page, you can.

[00:36:32] You could always say, go and take a look at my website, or I wrote a blog on this, or whatever it is. But normally, and again, when getting started, don't over confuse yourself just. , a plain thank you page that has your logo and a nice image or whatever on it in your font saying Thank you. It's on its way.

[00:36:47] And don't forget to shake your junk. So that's on the thank you page. So we'd build that first. Then what we'd probably build next is the email sequence. And again, it can depend on different systems, but you'd need to build that [00:37:00] sequence. So basically this is an automation, and you would say, okay, I want to create an automation.

[00:37:05] And you might put the trigger in there. You might put the trigger somewhere else. Again, this is where different systems differ. Depends on the tool. Yeah, it does. But basically you are saying, okay when this thing happens, I want you to, and it can be like, so active campaign. It could be a tag. So when this tag is added, start this and you can decide the tag.

[00:37:25] And, and we normally have decided the tag by this point. , you would start the automation. When someone gets this tag, start this thing and it'd like send them an email immediately. And then you put in your copy and your text of the email. The other thing you're gonna need to do is link to the thing that they've got and things like, the one key thing, and I saw this the other day with someone, is I opted in for their thing and they had a huge email and the link was hidden.

[00:37:51] Well, they say hidden, but it was amongst a lot of texts of the thing. I actually was trying to die in load. And then there was about another four or five links of various different other things they were trying to tell me [00:38:00] to do. And a 20% off discount if I bought my first thing. And it's like, we too much, too much do too much.

[00:38:06] Because then again, you're jumping straight into the sale. And again, that's not humane. That's not, we are coming from a point of serving. We're coming from a point going, I know you struggle with this and I can help because that's what I do and that's what I'm brilliant at. Mm-hmm. And yes, of course we all need to be paid.

[00:38:24] And of course there are paid things that you can have. But at that point, that's too early. So the first email is just an email that says, here you go. There's your thing. Like you asked for it. There it is. And I think on the copy it normally says something like, and I'll be in touch in a couple of days to let you see how you got on.

[00:38:44] And again, one thing I find, especially with a brand new sequence of someone brand new, tell them what to expect. Mm-hmm. . Okay. So in that first email, say, I'll be back in touch tomorrow, or I'll be back in touch in two days, so that when your email does fall into their inbox, they're not gonna think, oh, [00:39:00] she's hounding me.

[00:39:01] Mm-hmm. , because I've already told you that this is what's going to happen. One thing

[00:39:05] Sarah: that I really like doing is using numbers and brackets. So one out of five and then they know, okay, this is the first emails, then there's gonna be four more. And so I use that in all the subject lines and people really like it.

[00:39:19] I use that also in like mini-series where I'm like, I'm gonna be talking about this topic over five emails. Mm-hmm. , you know that these are coming, right? Yes. So I guess especially in an onboarding series, that would be really helpful

[00:39:32] Teresa: for people that like, yes, super helpful. It's a great idea. And like you said, so, and, and I think as well, people are, I know people are struggle with marketing and they really like, you know, they think it's sleazy and slimy and horrible, but as long as people know what to expect from you, it's when they're caught off guard.

[00:39:50] It's when you've said to them, I'm gonna email you once a week, or I'm gonna email you once a month and then you send five in two days. Like, that's not okay. That's not. [00:40:00] Alright to do, right? So it's about being really honest and going, this is what I'm going to do. And thinking as well as serving. So I often say, when I generally talk about emails, like you have to ask yourself, who cares you well with anything we do?

[00:40:15] Who cares? Like am I giving them something in that email that they're going to want to read? Am I giving them something that is going to be of value to them? Because if all I'm doing is telling them to buy my stuff, that is of no value to them. Now if I'm telling them a story that will give them a lesson or a learning, and then at the end of that email I say, and actually if you want more help with this, I can, and here's how you can get that help, then that's different.

[00:40:41] So

[00:40:41] Sarah: I think that's important to mention as well, because I know a lot of my clients. And, and I'm sure maybe yours as well. We, we have heart-centered clients and so they're actually, they already know that they want to serve, right? Yes. But it's the actual selling piece that's kind of difficult. And [00:41:00] so just this morning a client said to me that her subscribers told her they don't want more than one message per month.

[00:41:06] And I said, I understand that. And that is good that you ask what they want, but you also need to look out for yourself because you are running a business. And so you don't just want to only serve and share great content, you still also need to sell. That's why they are on your email list. So it's finding that balance,

[00:41:26] Teresa: right?

[00:41:27] It is, it is. And, and like you said, it. For me, again, asking that question is lovely. And I asked it funnily enough just the other day, but I sent three emails a week. Yeah. So, and I asked them, and I said to them, I'm gonna slow down in August. Cause obviously August is our UK summer holiday and I have a daughter and a stepson and you know, hopefully might take a little bit time off at some point.

[00:41:48] But for me I was like, so I'm probably gonna send like two emails a week this time. And I, and then, so I said, actually, drop me an email back and let me know what you think about that. And I've had people in the past go, I'd like less [00:42:00] and, and as long as I'm consistent, as long as I told them this is what it's going to be, and I communicate with them and I am thinking of doing less, I'm thinking of maybe just doing two a week on a Wednesday and a Thursday and I will email them going, I've been having a think and I think this is what I'm gonna do and this is why I'm gonna do it.

[00:42:16] And, you know, so I think it's that communication and again, treating people like they're real humans. Yeah. Because they are real humans.

[00:42:23] Sarah: I think what people get scared because they, the tech is involved and they feel like, Okay, so now this is, you know, the techy part of the business. Yeah. Where nice. It's not, you can still be yourself in these emails and, and Yeah.

[00:42:37] Even though you're talking to many people, you're still talking as if you were talking just to one

[00:42:43] Teresa: person. I write every email as if I'm talking to one person. Yeah. And, and I personally reply to everyone that responds. Mm-hmm. And I ask them to respond. Mm-hmm. And whether that takes me 20 minutes or three days, I'm the one that responds.

[00:42:58] And my team know that they [00:43:00] leave those emails alone because that, and again, I don't have a copywriter. Right. My emails, I write them and I joke that they're probably, they're not award-winning and there's gonna be typos in them. And, and kind of, I'm sorry, but I'm not, because it's like, that's not my zone of genius writing is not necessarily my zone of genius, however, The authenticity of it and the fact of, you want to hear from me so you are going to hear from me.

[00:43:24] You are not going to hear from a copywriter who has relayed a story that I've told them. So again, treating it as an additional bit of content, you know, another way to communicate with your audience, but also having that two-way thing and asking them and, and including them in the decision, I think is great.

[00:43:42] I do think though, once a month is not enough, nowhere near enough, because like if I said to someone post on social media once a month, and this is the analogy I always give when I get them in the course to go right, how often are you gonna email 'em? What day? And, and initially all of them would go probably once a month.

[00:43:59] And then I say to [00:44:00] them, imagine just posting on Instagram 12 times a year. What do you think that would do for the business? Do you think that would mean you get good business? No, of course it wouldn't. And we need to look at emails in a similar way, so, again, it's more about what you're putting in the email than the frequency of the email.

[00:44:17] Mm-hmm. . So yeah, so, so we do the sequence emails, we've got digress there. I digressed us. But we do the sequence emails and like I said, the first one is deliver the thing. The second one might be if they're brand new to you, it might be a who you are or normally. The second one for me is, okay, so you had this thing cuz you were struggling.

[00:44:34] Have you seen this? So it might be, here's a podcast I did about it. Here's an article I wrote on it. Here's a video I've done on it, but it's helping them further. And then from that point you might introduce yourself, you might explain more about your, what you do, you might then, and some of my email sequences on email, four or five.

[00:44:52] But again, you don't have to do this from day one. It gives 'em a video of something that's particularly. Pertinent to what they've downloaded or a [00:45:00] sneak peek into the membership because actually they downloaded a mindset thing and the membership has mindset calls in it. And then, because I have products at the end of it, I might go, if you're interested, actually you might wanna join the club or you might wanna have a look at the club.

[00:45:13] And then my last email will say and, and it, this is only cause I'm leading into products that, or a service or whatever. If you are not, then you don't do this. But my last email says, you're not ready. No worries. So basically as well, and the automation is very cool, but I don't teach this. I can teach it to someone who asks, but this is not what I would tell you to get started with.

[00:45:31] So for instance, in my funnel, in active campaign, at the end of every email, I have a section in the, in the process that says, did they sign up to the club? If they did, don't send them anything else. If they didn't send them this, did they sign up to the club? If they didn't, don't send them anything else.

[00:45:47] If they did, if if they did, don't send 'em anything else. They didn't. And that's what I send them. No worries. That's fine. I see. And that's exactly the

[00:45:54] Sarah: thing. You can't do it Cajabi like

[00:45:56] Teresa: none of this is no, no, no, it's not right. No. [00:46:00] Yeah. You need a system. And I think, I think. , fairly confident. You can do an element of that in Malechi not Malechi Mailer light

[00:46:09] I told you I'd get confused. Yeah, there is an element of that. You can do a mailer light, but you can't do that in Kajabi, which is why again, when switch back, I can afford it. I switched back. Yeah. But again, you know, even saying to at the end, no worries. I've offered you this thing. I think it could be cool, but you don't want it.

[00:46:24] And because I very much believe in humane marketing, I don't do close and open on stuff unless it's a course, like build My List where I work with you along it, which means I obviously have to have an intake cuz we all start at the same point. But other than that, my membership is always open, so I just really nicely say at the end, no worries, I'm always here and now you're gonna start getting my regular emails, which, and I tell them what the deal is with the regular emails.

[00:46:48] So, so those things. That kind of un onboarding is, is kinda key. So you need all those emails written, which they already are by this point, and then you put them into your system. So then you've got an automation, you've got a thank you page, [00:47:00] you've probably got a tag. And then the next thing we go in and do is probably set up the form again, depending on what system you're in.

[00:47:06] So we set up the form first, because on a landing page, you're gonna need to put the form in it, but you can't set up the form without having stuff to link to it because it'll say, well, what do you want to do with this form? And if you haven't got a like, okay, once they filled in the form, go to this thank you page.

[00:47:19] Or once they filled in the form, subscribe them to this automation. So that's why we're kind of working backwards and up. So then we do the form bit. And then once we've done the form bit, we then build the landing page. And then once we've done the landing page, all the social media posts are already written, already done.

[00:47:36] So it should be as easy as. So then you'll have the link for your landing page. And then it should be as easy as, here's your social media post that you've already created. Shove the link in there when they click through to it. The rest should be absolutely fine. And then obviously we do an element of testing.

[00:47:51] I test it, they test it, make sure everything looks right, reads right, and all that sort of good stuff. But yeah, it's not where the process that we go through as the [00:48:00] consumer is we see a social media post. We go through to a landing page, we put in a form, we then go to a thank you page. We then get an email.

[00:48:09] We don't create it in the same process because that's not the process that's easy enough for us. Yeah. So, yeah. And I know it sounds big. It does

[00:48:18] Sarah: sound right. Overwhelming when you hear it like that. Yeah. But it, it's like anything, it's definitely like Marie Felia would say it's figure outable and once you have figured it out the first time, you can just rinse and repeat.

[00:48:32] That's it. The system and the process. And you will come up with different opt-ins and free.

[00:48:37] Teresa: Yeah, and I had, and, and again, I promise you, I never came on here to go buy my thing. But had an amazing testimonial. The day I say testimony she just told me, but it was still amazing. One of my members bought Build My List cuz like I said, it's not included in the membership cause it's a very specific and it's followed me along.

[00:48:53] So like I said, we'll literally go, has everybody done this now? Let me see it. Has it look yet great? Right once to the next thing. Because I know people need [00:49:00] that gain ability, but she had done the course the very first time I ran it and she actually hadn't been as present in the course as she wanted to because she was doing a tax return or something at the time and the timing just wasn't right for her.

[00:49:13] And she actually got one of her team to go through and do the work, so. Mm-hmm. , they actually went in and did the stuff. and they did it and she obviously hadn't done it. And so then it comes a year later and she decides she needs a new lead magnet and cuz the other one had been performing well, but obviously it's nice to have a few, and again, I explain about, you know, why you would want different ones for different things.

[00:49:35] And so she decided she wants a new one and she went back to the course and went through the lessons and came on one of my calls and was. I've done it, , I've just done it and, and like I literally just went back and, and did exactly what you said and I've done another one. And she was like, that's amazing.

[00:49:53] And then she's doing another one. And it's like, that's the point, like by going through it with you like [00:50:00] that. And even when I'm talking about different systems, the way I try and explain, and obviously you know, you have different systems to choose from, but the way I try to explain it is if you understand what you are trying to do or what you need to do, even if you then go to a different system, you know, okay, I need a page or a landing page, which might be called a website on some things.

[00:50:21] Or it might be called a site, or it might be called a page, or it might be called a landing page and I need some kind of form or opt-in or pop in, pop up. So again, where's that gonna be? And I need another page for a thank you page, and I need some kind of automation and I need something to trigger it. So even if you're moving and changing, The, like you said, the idea for me is I teach you the understanding of it and then you can rinse and repeat it.

[00:50:44] Mm-hmm. , because, I dunno about you, Sarah. One of the things I found in the online space and, and talking of humane marketing and doing the right thing for our customers is, and one thing that I've been complimented on, which is lovely, is that I don't set my members [00:51:00] up on my students up to always need me.

[00:51:02] Mm-hmm. , my aim is to give them the tools and the strategies and it's the empowerment for the empowerment Exactly. To do it themselves again. Yeah. Rather than, okay, I'm gonna give you so much and then, you know, if you want the rest, you're gonna have to come and do this, and do this and do this. Right. It. No, I am so over the moon and she just ha so happens to also be a member as well.

[00:51:25] But even, and I, and funnily enough, when I was doing the challenge, I re-interviewed some of the past member some of the past students. And again, they said exactly the same. They were like, I did another one and I did another one. And the other thing that's really lovely actually is I have some marketers come to me and say, can I use it for clients?

[00:51:41] And I'm like, if you are, you can come and learn the skill and learn the process and then offer that as a service. And then you can now be, I can create your opt-in, I can set up your email and absolutely fine. You can use my tools and my strategies and my stuff. That is fine if, as long as that's giving you another skill [00:52:00] and you are obviously not selling the corso, as long as you're using the things, that's fine.

[00:52:04] And, but I love that. I love that we empower people to, to do those things so they don't have to come back to me and go, I'm gonna have to join again cuz I can't remember how to do it.

[00:52:13] Sarah: Yeah, I, I just had my first group in the Humane Marketing Circle go through my book, the marketing, like we're human and they organized everything themselves.

[00:52:24] So basically it's member organized and they got together, you know, amazing during three sessions, worked through my workbooks that are available for free. And so I'm like, this is exactly what we need. You know, we don't need more gurus. We need people to get empowered and then do it themselves. Just get the tools and then do it themselves.

[00:52:46] And you are so right. And I think, yeah, this conversation here has been so helpful because people are like, Okay. I'm getting the big picture and I'm really getting the details and, and, and maybe they can just, you know, do it themselves now that, that [00:53:00] would

[00:53:00] Teresa: be great. And for summits, right? More than enough on the challenge.

[00:53:04] I had a number of people, in fact, a huge percentage of people that we talked about, you know, this is how you come up with an idea. These are sort of things that I consider and then they'd come to. , the coaching call I did alongside it. And then the next day they're like, I've created it. Yeah. And I'm like, that's amazing.

[00:53:19] Awesome. Yeah. And then, and I had actually, and I'd never had this before, but I had two people actually within the five days create the thing and then they got bit stuck with the tech. Cuz obviously I can only go into so much on a challenge about that. But then they post in the group and I was like, have you changed up to that?

[00:53:35] Do this to this? And they were like, I can't honestly believe you're helping me do this. Like Yeah. But you've come into the challenge trying to achieve something and you are working really hard to achieve it. Why wouldn't I help you to achieve it? Mm-hmm. Yes. I know I have a course that teaches all this, but you are so far ahead already.

[00:53:51] Yeah. And I would've literally left you at the last hurdle. And, and

[00:53:55] Sarah: basically they only needed that missing piece and Yeah.

[00:53:58] Teresa: Yeah. And if I hadn. [00:54:00] Thought about them in the way I do and treat my audience the way I do. I'd been like, well that's fine cuz that's in the course. So if you wanna buy the course, it looks there to do that.

[00:54:07] And it was like, no, this woman and the woman I was talking about, she has a young child. It was like an 18 month old and it was like, I know how difficult it was for you to turn up and go through the challenge because of how busy you are and managing the child and all this, and the fact that you've done all this.

[00:54:23] and, and it was really early in the morning, and I don't, I normally, I get up and I have a morning routine and I don't look at my phone straight away. But for whatever reason, I sat in bed and I was looking at my phone and that message came up. So she'd obviously got up before a child or a child had woken her up or whatever, and gone back to sleep.

[00:54:38] So she's messaging me and it was like, I don't know, six feet in the morning and I'm like, do this. And then she came back, I'm stuck on this. Try that. Okay, that works. Okay, you need to change this. And at the end of it, she was like, I can't believe. Like, but you've just done that. And it's, and like I said, why wouldn't I?

[00:54:51] Mm-hmm. , you know, I'm setting people up to succeed, not to need me and buy my stuff if they don't need to.

[00:54:57] Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. Ah, this [00:55:00] has been wonderful. Thank you so much for sharing so much wisdom and, and tackling the tech, because , I think, yeah, it really, people are gonna take a lot from that. If, if you would add one last tip in terms of, you know, maybe also the content, how to make it humane, you know, that idea of how do I not, because maybe they're also signed up to all these other emails, and quite frankly, a lot of them are still very salesy.

[00:55:30] Mm-hmm. . And so how do I, because I talk a lot of hu marketing, like we're human. So how do I bring the human into these emails? What

[00:55:39] Teresa: would you say? You write them. Mm-hmm. . It's your voice. It's you people wanna hear from, so I think you and I know, you know, people wanna create nice copy that is inspiring and this, that, and the other.

[00:55:53] I was gonna say, I suppose when you're selling me, you could still use copywriter, but No, I don't. I don't, I don't ever use a copywriter, so I'm very [00:56:00] honest about, I set them up correctly in the fact of I tell them what's coming so I don't surprise them with suddenly all these emails. Even when I'm in a sales period or I'm trying to promote something, I might only still send one or two extra emails.

[00:56:14] I don't go overboard and suddenly send 50 in, you know, whatever. The other key thing is to consistently email them and whether that consistency looks like every other week or every week or three times a week, consistently email them. There is some, there's one person in my world who's very big and I do not ever hear from them unless they're selling.

[00:56:35] Mm-hmm. And literally it's like not a single email. And then suddenly they'll drop into my inbox and I think, what are you selling? Mm-hmm. And it's coming into open door start, you know, it's like open carts coming soon, challenges coming soon because I know you're about to sell something cuz you'll suddenly start emailing me.

[00:56:50] Well that. That, that basically just tells me you are using your email list to sell right now. We know it's a very effective way to sell, but I don't wanna just be sold to [00:57:00] So con, the consistency is more about proving to your community that you care about them. Mm-hmm. . So like I said, be consistent whether you've got something to sell, not people think they've never got something to say, you've always got something to say, have a conversation.

[00:57:14] Some of the best emails I've had replies to, and I mean replies not sales, cuz they're, the best emails I've had are replies are about like stories that I've told or something that's happened or some vulnerability. You know, I, I was very vulnerable a few years about when my mom passed away and I hadn't emailed them for two weeks and I used to email once a week.

[00:57:32] Then I'd emailed 'em on a Wednesday and I hadn't emailed them for two weeks and I emailed them going, you might be wondering where I've been and I'm really sorry cuz when I commit to something I really want to. and I explained that unfortunately my mom had passed away fairly suddenly. And you know, I just needed to take a couple of weeks just to like, you know, but I'm back, I'm still gonna take it easy, but I will commit back to my one email a week.

[00:57:54] And the flood of emails back I had was huge. That wasn't selling, that wasn't [00:58:00] adding value, that was just being me and being human, right? And, and I guess telling a story that other people are very likely to have been through or will go through and telling them about how I was dealing as a business owner, you know?

[00:58:15] So I guess I was adding value in a way, but it was never like, Hey, am I gonna add value in this email? So I think the consistency, the thinking of them, the giving them value, thinking of what are they gonna get from it? And even if they just walk away and think, I love your emails, they're ace. Like, that's fine.

[00:58:29] Not always thinking of how you're gonna sell to them in an email, but adding that value. I think that's the key bit. And. asking for replies. I always ask for replies if you can personalize it. And again, active campaign, you can do some very cool things, which is good, but not on the early ones. So I don't talk about this with people, but you know, if you can personalize it, that's cool.

[00:58:49] But that's still an automation, that's still a system. So, you know, if someone replies, I personally reply back, like even if they're like, oh, this is great, thanks. And I just look great. Cheers. You know, even [00:59:00] if it's like three words back, I make sure I respond because they've gone the effort to do that to you.

[00:59:05] So see it as another form of way of communicating with them. It's not one way, it's not you shouting at them, it's, it's a conversation and you want people to have that conversation with you. Yeah. Try not to. Clickbait or spammy or you know, and be human. It's funny, , I am, I have just made a change in my membership and I was thinking about how I'm gonna email it.

[00:59:29] I'm gonna be really honest as I am and tell them that something didn't work and I've, I've stopped it and I'm, this is why it didn't work and this is why I've stopped it. And I was thinking about what would I actually write in the subject line. I don't know why I was giving this so much thought, but anyway.

[00:59:44] And I thought to myself, what if I wrote, I'm closing the club? And then, because that's not a lie cuz I'm closing a part of the club, but I'm not closing my club. And then I thought, oh, that is so spammy. But then me being me, I thought, I would literally write, well that caught your [01:00:00] attention, didn't it? like, because again, I'm, I'm being human.

[01:00:04] So like, I, you know, and I would probably say that to someone. I'd probably be like, oh, this is happening. And they'd be like, what? Like, yeah, not really, it's like this, but I'm not lying, but. , I would have that kind of funny conversation in the actual email. Mm-hmm. . So again, think about that. Think about,

[01:00:18] Sarah: so having the, what I hear you say is like, have the marketing brain on mm-hmm.

[01:00:23] obviously, you're not gonna go into a very boring subject line,

[01:00:27] Teresa: right? No, no,

[01:00:28] Sarah: no. People, yes, they do. Open or not your email. Yes. Depending on the subject line, but then still be transparent and honest when you do yeah. When you do write about yes. Something that is happening or not. The other thing, I, I wanna bring it up because I, I don't know if you seen it on your LinkedIn post you just posted about the door open or door closed, or cars cart open or, or.

[01:00:53] I just wanna give you kind of another perspective, because I've been thinking about mm-hmm. , this whole thing with o open cart, [01:01:00] close cart as well. And, and you're right, it is kind of like, okay, let's use this urgency and, you know, spam people and you can only buy now. And so I, I've given this a lot of thought in, in the humane marketing perspective, and then I thought, you know what, it's a given fact.

[01:01:17] Yes. People sometimes do need some kind of encouragement to Yes. You know, buy, we know that that's a proven fact. Yeah. What does that mean for me? How do I want to communicate about these, the, these open slots throughout the year? And then I was also thinking about my existing members. I'm like, actually, I do like the fact that for three months I have the full focus only on my existing members.

[01:01:45] Right? Yeah. There's not new people always joining. It's like, okay, we have a window that is open. And so really, I think it's, it's not so much about the techniques, and that's what I talk about in humane marketing. It's, it's about, it's the

[01:01:57] Teresa: motivation. Yeah. Yeah. It's behind, behind what you are [01:02:00] doing. Yeah.

[01:02:00] Yeah. It's

[01:02:01] Sarah: like, okay, this is how I'm, that's what I talk about, the early bird price offer as well. Mm-hmm. , the intentions is not, oh, let me push you to buy now. It's not like, I would would love to give you this offer. Reduced price because it helps you. It also helps me, frankly because then I know, yes, I already have members or people,

[01:02:21] Teresa: participants, right.

[01:02:23] That's the other thing. It's about speaking the truth behind this stuff. Yeah, and that is something I have done a lot more recently, as in past six, 12 months, and even to the point where, You know, I've got I've got an email going out. I, I batch my emails. That's the only way I can send through a week, obviously.

[01:02:41] Cause I, I send a lot, but I batch my emails for next week and next week I'm talking about one of my amazing friends who has a course. And it's a really good course and I've done it. And it's about bringing on a team member. And I have a team and she's just a genius in it. She's so, so good. But one of the things I say, so in the [01:03:00] first email, I'm like, if you're looking for a team, this is good.

[01:03:01] Whatever, whatever. But then I say to them as you know, I don't talk about affiliates often. I don't do affiliates often. So my next email is all about my thoughts on affiliate marketing. Mm-hmm. . And I'm like, okay. In principle, it's great. And it's, this is kind of what you're saying, the principle of it is not flawed, it's how people have then used that principle.

[01:03:21] Exactly. So I was saying to em, you know, having someone recommend something that they've done is a really good marketing tool. And it's excellent because no one, you know, it's like with all of us, you know, someone, I love Jim, so someone will go, oh, if you tried so and so, it's amazing. Well thank you very much.

[01:03:37] You know, that is, it's not affiliate marketing, they're not getting paid for it. But that is a recommendation and that's what affiliate marketing can be. But the problem comes where, and again, I know a few people who do this, where basically they flog their audience like, like they are just a cash cow. So they are an affiliate for anything and everything.

[01:03:55] And also the way in which they sell the affiliate thing is, . [01:04:00] You need this. You have to have it. This is crucial. This is how if you look at me and you think I'm a success, you need to do the same cuz you won't be a success without it. It's all the messaging around it and the frequency in which they do it.

[01:04:12] So it's, it's a really weirdly contrasting email because I'm one breath, I'm going. . Okay. This is brilliant about affiliate marketing. Marketing. This is not, I'm not happy about that. I am very precious about my audience the same way as I'm very precious about my podcast and I'm, and about what I deliver.

[01:04:30] So I'm super precious about emailing you and I'm not willing to like bombard you with sales emails cause I don't think that's right. However, my lovely friend Jen, is doing this course and it is amazing. Oh, and again, one of the other things I talk about is I said, do you know how much people get paid for affiliate stuff?

[01:04:46] it's not small money. Some of these people are getting like eight, 800 to a thousand dollars per student. Yeah. You know, so them coming across going, you've gotta buy it because of X, Y, Z. There's a real strong motivation as to why they're saying that.

[01:04:59] Sarah: Of [01:05:00] course. And then they started creating their own offer.

[01:05:03] You know, if you buy it, then I'll add this sometimes this, this, this. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. You, we need to do a session just on

[01:05:09] Teresa: affiliate marketing. We should, honestly, I could talk about this stuff so much, but, so, but again, so in, in my email, I've written a very honest educational, because I've told them about affiliate marketing and why it's good, how not to do it, and.

[01:05:24] Fyi, just as a little bit of a heads up, next time someone is handing you to buy something, just work out what I know, why, how much they're making. Oh, they might be getting for that. And then I say, but this course is excellent and Jen is excellent and she's doing a free three day free three day workshop.

[01:05:39] And by all means, go along to it and take what she has to say and it's great and there is no pressure for you to buy. And that will be, so that will be email number two I've sent about her course. And then when her car opens, I'll send another email. But again, it'll be like, this is cool. If you are in this situation and you need help, this will help.[01:06:00]

[01:06:00] But like, I'm not gonna tell you that it changed my world and I can't live without it. It was an excellent course. But of course, you know, we can all live without stuff, can't we?

[01:06:10] Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's just all about, I. Humane marketing my role. I see also shining a light on all of these mm-hmm. Things and that's why I have conversations like this.

[01:06:22] Yeah. Because people don't know, you know? No. They don't know that there are people who call themselves affiliate marketers and they're making Yeah. In the thousands. So much money.

[01:06:32] Teresa: Yeah. So much money. And again, it's like, you know, there are some people that I've, I've worked with in the past and, and again, it's funny how, I dunno about you, when you went through the process of coming into the more humane marketing, that suddenly you realize that some of the people you hung around with, or some of the people that you bought from, or some of the people that you respected and learnt from.

[01:06:52] actually are the people now you're trying to avoid. Yeah. And, and there's some people in particular that literally will go mad [01:07:00] on email marketing when they've got something to sell, but they're selling everyone's course and everyone's thing because they've bought it and now they're an affiliate for everything and they're making a lot of money off the back of their audience.

[01:07:11] And their audience isn't necessarily, and I know it's not up for us to decide, but you know, some of this stuff is not appropriate to their audience. Some of this stuff is, they'll narrow the

[01:07:21] Sarah: budget, their success because they're, yeah,

[01:07:24] Teresa: they're, because that's not what they're meant to be doing. And if they just focused on the thing they were doing, it would get their success.

[01:07:29] But of course, their, their guru, their expert has told them that they have to have this thing, so they're buying. and it's a waste. And whereas if you care about your audience, you would offer it, that's fine. Not, not that, not to offer it, but then you'd be realistic. And I, I am always about should, should I buy this?

[01:07:51] Like even my own course, you know, even the bill, my list course, I had someone come to me and said, should I buy it? And I went, no, because you've done loans and sometimes

[01:07:58] Sarah: if they're ready or if they're [01:08:00] already past

[01:08:00] Teresa: that level, I'll cut. She kind of was. And I said, you know what wrote better for you actually is, you know, and again I'm not using the sales status but my club, you need the next level.

[01:08:10] And actually you could come and ask me questions on a coaching call that could be good. Mm-hmm. , but again, no pressure. Mm-hmm. . And I do think sometimes I dunno about you. So like sometimes I do think I'm cutting off my nose, spite my face in some ways and thinking, you know, there is a reason all this stuff works.

[01:08:25] But I just hope and pray that honesty and integrity will, you know, purvey and. I'll come out with it at the end of it, .

[01:08:36] Sarah: If anything, we'll have good karma and they won't. We will .

[01:08:40] Teresa: We'll, you are right. We are right. We'll walk away with Yeah. I love it. I love it. Amazing.

[01:08:45] Sarah: Please do share, Theresa, where people can find out more about you and of course the, the course or, or that maybe that you have another challenge as well.

[01:08:56] So,

[01:08:56] Teresa: It's, yeah. So you can come to tru heath wearing.com and everything will [01:09:00] be on there. If you wanna check out, build My List, that's what the course is called. It's [email protected] slash build my list. Or come and DM me on Instagram. I'm there most often. I'm on every platform, but I'm there most often.

[01:09:10] And I love a conversation. So please come and say hi.

[01:09:13] Sarah: Wonderful. And I have one last question and that is, what are you grateful for today, this week?

[01:09:19] Teresa: Oh, my word so much. So, so much. I practice gratitude all the time. I'm grateful for the fact that I. Have my own business, that I am my own boss, and that after this interview, I'm gonna go and sit outside in the sun for half an hour because I can, because the sun's shining and it's beautiful and I love it.

[01:09:41] And I'm gonna wander around my garden where all my vegetables are growing, which I, again, I am crazy grateful for. And enjoy my garden for half an hour before my house gets busier and everyone comes home. So that's what I'm grateful for.

[01:09:52] Sarah: Wonderful. This has been absolutely amazing. Thank you so much for coming

[01:09:57] Teresa: on.

[01:09:57] Thanks. Thank you so much, Sarah. I've loved it. [01:10:00]

[01:10:01] Sarah: As always, I hope you enjoyed this episode and got a lot of value out of it. And please take a moment to find out more about Theresa and her work at Theresa. wearing.com. Theresa has also has a free mindset hack download, which you can get at Theresa Heath wearing.com/mindset, an

Today I'm talking to George Kao about a controversial topic: charging more money to get more motivated clients. He wrote a LinkedIn Post about this, which I'll link to below.

George is a business mentor who infuses his teachings with a unique spiritual perspective. Since 2009, he has helped thousands of coaches, consultants, healers and course creators on their path to creating sustainable and joyful businesses.

George has published five books spanning the topics of Authentic Business, Content Marketing, Joyful Productivity, and Spiritual Growth.

You can find George Kao on Instagram, Youtube, LinkedIn, and his podcast. Or discover his curated best writings & videos at www.GeorgeKao.com.

In this episode, you'll learn about charging more to get more motivated clients as well as...

• George's own story and experience with charging higher prices
• George's (and my) take on the presumed relationship between higher prices and the client's commitment
• The right thing to do in pricing
• Pricing on enoughness
• What volume has to do with smaller prices
• George's current offerings and prices
• And so much more

George's Resources

George's LinkedIn article: Charge More Money to Get More Motivated Clients?

George's Website

Soul Gym Program & Community

Connect with George on:

LinkedIn

Facebook

YouTube

Instagram

Sarah's Resources

Watch this episode on Youtube

(FREE) Sarah's One Page Marketing Plan

(FREE) Sarah Suggests Newsletter

(FREE) The Humane Business Manifesto

(FREE) Gentle Confidence Mini-Course

Marketing Like We're Human - Sarah's book

The Humane Marketing Circle

Authentic & Fair Pricing Mini-Course

Podcast Show Notes

We use Descript to edit our episodes and it's fantastic!

Email Sarah at [email protected]

Thanks for listening!

 

After you listen, check out Humane Business Manifesto, an invitation to belong to a movement of people who do business the humane and gentle way and disrupt the current marketing paradigm. You can download it for free at this page. There's no opt-in. Just an instant download.

Are you enjoying the podcast?  The Humane Marketing show is listener-supported—I'd love for you to become an active supporter of the show and join the Humane Marketing Circle. You will be invited to a private monthly Q&A call with me and fellow Humane Marketers -  a safe zone to hang out with like-minded conscious entrepreneurs and help each other build our business and grow our impact.  — I'd love for you to join us! Learn more at humane.marketing/circle

Don't forget to subscribe to the show on iTunes or on Android to get notified for all my future shows and why not sign up for my weekly(ish) "Sarah Suggests Saturdays", a round-up of best practices, tools I use, books I read, podcasts, and other resources.

Raise your hand and join the Humane Business Revolution.

Warmly,

Sarah

Imperfect Transcript of the show

We use and love Descript to edit our podcast and provide this free transcript of the episode. And yes, that's an affiliate link.

Ep 155

[00:00:00]

[00:00:00] George intro: [00:01:00] [00:02:00] Hello friends, welcome back and happy 2023. I look forward to spending time with you this year as well. On your walks in the gym or wherever else you are listening to these episodes. I truly am excited for 2023. I think Humane Marketing is in the site, Geist finally, and I know that because after three years of running the Humane Marketing Circle with a very tight-knit community, now more and more of the [00:03:00] right people are finding their way to us because they want to do things differently as well.

[00:03:06] And just a hint, if you're one of them, you can obviously check out the humane.marketing/circle and join us whenever you want because the doors are now open all the time. And I also know because I have some of the, Old guru marketer crowd people that I know from way back 2007, 2008 they are contacting me and congratulating me about humane marketing.

[00:03:34] And admitting how burned out they really are from the old way of doing things. So yes, I truly believe that 2023 is a pivot year, and I'm excited for it. I'm always ahead of the times and it seems like finally the times are catching up with me and I'm ready for that. Okay, onto today's show, which fits under the P of pricing.[00:04:00]

[00:04:00] If you're a regular here, you know that I'm organizing the conversations around the seven Ps of the Humane Marketing Mandala. And if you're new here and you don't know what that Marketing Mandala is, you can download your one page marketing plan with the humane marketing version of the seven Ps of [email protected] slash one page.

[00:04:22] That's the number one in the Word page, and this comes with seven email prompts to really help you reflect on these different Ps for your business. So today I'm talking to George Cow about controversial topic, which is charging more money to get more motivated. Clients. He wrote a LinkedIn post about this which I'll link to in the show notes, and I thought it would just make such a good topic for one of our episodes.

[00:04:51] So George is a business mentor, he who infuses his teachings with a unique spiritual perspective. Since 2009, [00:05:00] he has helped thousands of coaches, consultants, healers, and course creators on their path to creating sustainable and joyful business. George has published five books spanning the topics of authentic business content marketing, joyful productivity, and spiritual growth.

[00:05:19] In this episode, we talked about George's own story and experience with charging higher prices, George's and my take on the presumed relationship between higher prices and the client's commit. The right thing to do in pricing. Pricing on Enoughness. Something that George was talking about in his article, what volume has to do with smaller prices, George's current offerings and prices and so much more.

[00:05:50] So I really think you will get a lot out of this conversation. So without further ado, here's George Cow and [00:06:00] myself talking about pricing.

[00:06:05] video1268242934: Hi, George. I'm so excited to have you on the show today. Yeah, thanks, Sarah. This is a thank you for inviting me. Always, always a, a joy to talk with you because we share these deep values and I think we'll have a great conversation today. Yes, yes. It's a, it's kind of a, I. Highlighted it as a bit of a controversial conversation.

[00:06:26] Right. Uhhuh. . Because yeah, there's different opinions about it, and I think anything related to pricing is always, you know, has different opinions and it's tough for people. Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's one of the most listened to episodes, I would say. Whenever it's, I, I position it under the P of pricing. Yes. You know, you.

[00:06:46] A whole bunch of listeners. So that's, yeah, that's great. And I'm so, yeah. I'm so grateful for for your point of view and your perspective. So, so let's kind of go there because I reached out to you again, we've talked [00:07:00] previously but I've reached out to you again because you just posted something on LinkedIn about pricing.

[00:07:07] And the, the exact title was Change More Money to Get More Motivated Clients. Yeah. Charge More Money. Yeah. , should we charge more Money ? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So that's kind of what I, that's what I want to unpack. And you know, I have some questions and I think. I think overall we agree, but then there's al also certain points where I'm like, Hmm, what if we look at it this way?

[00:07:33] So Sure. Just Of course. Yeah. I'm here to learn too this conversation. Yeah. But maybe first. , it'd be interesting for listeners to kind of hear your story with pricing and Sure. When you started out, was it always clear how you price your things or Yeah. How has it evolved over time? Oh yeah. Thank you.

[00:07:52] Yeah, so I think my history is instructional because this is, I've kind. Run the [00:08:00] gamut of the pricing in my industry. I started in 2009 with my you know, coaching business, coaching and training business. And back then I, I knew relatively little about online marketing, so I was learning from the big boys, usually mostly boys, back then the big players who were, were, it's so interesting.

[00:08:22] It was, they were always there, all they all charged the same price. $2,000 or 1997 or 2, 19 95. You know, they always, they, they all, they all, back in 2009, 2010, they were all charging the same price. 2008 was when I started buying courses. So they all charged $2,000, which today is even more money. But no matter the lengths, like, or how long were these programs?

[00:08:47] I have some of them on my shelf right now, you know, and it's not that, It's just, it's, it, it's shocking to me, genuinely. I mean, so the way they, they, you know, they call it stack the [00:09:00] value or, you know, stack the stack. It's like you go to the sales page, it's like you get, you get this course typically valued at, you know, $500.

[00:09:09] This course typically valued at 3000. This course typically valued at, you know, 1,500 or whatever, and all bundled up, you know, instead of paying a hundred thousand dollars or something ridiculous like that, you're only paying 2000. It's like you're getting a 98% discount. Or it's something they, they, they, they did that kind of manipulation which of course, at the end of the day, they're sending you a bunch of PDFs, you know, they're sending you some PDFs.

[00:09:34] For $2,000, they might send you something in the mail physically and you know, like a binder and with some papers and I'm like, I have them on my shelf. And as I look at it I'm like, this is stuff that, a lot of stuff you could, some of the stuff you can Google, but some of the stuff, sure. They have like sample emails they printed out and I look at the emails, I'm like, I wouldn't send this kind of email cuz this is some manipulative.

[00:09:55] And anyway, long story short, those were the people that, [00:10:00] because when I, when I was learning online marketing, those were the loudest. , right. You know, and so $2,000 per course and with almost no interaction with them live, I think they had some like larger group calls that lasted for like, you know, three months or something like that.

[00:10:16] But you know, I go on there and actually didn't really know what to ask in the early days and just kinda listen. And it's like, it's hard to get their attention anyway. So I thought, okay, well that's the industry standard price. So that's what I. , I charged $2,000. Now I thought I was pretty generous because for $2,000 I was giving a whole year of q and as with me.

[00:10:40] Mm-hmm. , you know, and it's like a whole year of weekly q and as. And eventually, I, I went to twice weekly q and a for a whole year back in the 2009, 2002, 2011 days. And you know, I was teaching everything. I taught them everything for 2000 bucks and it's like so that's when I started charging for, for a course.

[00:10:58] And, and, and, [00:11:00] I think for like standalone courses, I was charging like $700 or something like that back in 2009, 2010. Standalone meaning, okay, you take this particular topic like social media marketing or something like that and you get, you know, three months of q and a or something like that. So funny thing is these days my standalone, as of this recording as you know, there, that could change.

[00:11:21] As of this recording, my standalone courses are a hundred. In 2022 prices mm-hmm. , you know, compared to 2009 prices. My, no, my absolute numbers have, my absolute pricing has gone down now. Gratefully, my income has been, has been good. Very good recently, but it's like the, it's like if you looked at inflation, I, I should be charging.

[00:11:44] you know, a thousand to 5,000 easily for my courses now, but I've, I've brought it down to a very humane , I think, or accessible level of 150, and they get, you know, two months of q and a. And it's a very, you know, I, I [00:12:00] think my content is even better than it was back then because of all the experience I've had.

[00:12:04] So, like I said, the experiences I've had, so the, the reason why I stopped charging those high prices is because I notice. , and maybe you have to, I don't know, Sarah and everyone listening, I charge these prices and people buy into them and not everybody uses the program. Mm-hmm. . Yeah. And in fact, a lot of people don't use the program to the extent that I want them to.

[00:12:35] Sure. Maybe like most of them will like, at least get started, but then it's easy for them. Oh, shiny new object. Oh, here's another $2,000 course. Oh, here's another thousand dollars course. Oh, here's another fi. Whatever the pricing is. Oh, here's another thing that looks really good. Sign up. And so I started noticing this dynamic.

[00:12:56] Okay. There's this dynamic happening within myself and within [00:13:00] the the student. I notice this, okay? First, within the student. I started to recognize, and actually this was one of my students told me this. I'm so grateful that, that, that he did. He said, George, you know, I, I started noticing something after a while.

[00:13:13] When I spend money to buy a course, I sign up for a course. My brain tricks me to think that I've gotten something done. I've made some progress. Mm-hmm. and. That there's a kind of a letdown or the not, not a letdown. There's a letdown of mo. There's a, there's a decrease of motivation that happens afterwards that's like, oh, I've spent the money, I've paid, I've enrolled, I've signed up, and now somehow, somehow this not as motivated now to like do something with it.

[00:13:39] Or maybe we should say that doing something with it is riskier. There's more. , the possibility of failure in involved. Right? Whereas the buying process is easy. It's like, oh, it's so exciting. Oh my God, this looks so great. The fantasy has been created in our minds for what's possible if we. You know, join this program.

[00:13:57] It's like, and now I'm gonna make all this money, or I'm gonna [00:14:00] create all these results in my life. That's, the buying process is so exciting. But then the actual, after you buy, now, the rubber hits the road. You have to like watch the things, read the things, study the things, and then try it out in your own life, which could work, could not work.

[00:14:14] It's. Much scarier now. And so the student, that's why it's so easy for them to go, well, let me chase another buying process. Mm-hmm. , this is, this is really dangerous. Yeah. And really a lot of, myself included, I've , I've all these on my shelf. I spent tens of thousands because I've been through that process my, so there's that dynamic.

[00:14:34] And then my dynamic from the seller side was I was starting to feel guilty. About taking all this money from people and go, well wait, you barely went through module one, or you went through modules two and three and then you stopped. I had 12 modules for you and you, why did you stop? It was too hard. You want what?

[00:14:53] And sometimes I'm like, hello, are you still there? Like, I'm emailing them, you know, they, they've moved on to the next product, right? [00:15:00] I'm gonna stop here because , there's a lot. There's a lot here. Yeah. There's so much to unpack it just in what you just shared, right? So there's the, yeah, the integrity piece, feeling.

[00:15:11] You are not really actually getting them to do, to do the results because they just, yeah. They, they have this shiny object syndrome and moving on to the next thing and, and, and it, what I heard out of what you shared also is this empowering the client piece that has Yes. Unfortunately over the last decade been erased.

[00:15:33] Like we only, well, we started to use these manipul. Techniques to get the buyer to buy, but they were still buying in this kind of frenzy and kind of scarcity. Mm-hmm. mentality that they were too frozen to actually get anything done or Right. You know implement anything that that you had sold them.

[00:15:56] Right. And so that led you away from [00:16:00] charging these, these higher amounts. Yes. So what I wanna get into also is this relationship between, because what you talked about in this article is that. You know, you were being told that there's a relationship between the client's progress and the higher amount.

[00:16:21] So these high ticket pricing? Yes. Price coaches, yes. They're telling us basically you have to charge a lot of money, right. So that your clients actually do the work that we want them to do. Yes. And. Well, yeah, I'll let you comment on that. . Well, there are two types of people, now this, whenever I say that, that's always funny cuz you can, you can segment personality types and humanity into as many ways as you want to.

[00:16:51] We all, but I'll just, for, for fun right now, I'll just say there are two types of people, right? One type of person is [00:17:00] in the excite, they love the buying experie. , they love signing up for things, and then they're not really ready to apply it. And when I say two types of people, I mean they're, they're, that, those two types are within ourselves too.

[00:17:14] Okay. For, for, for various things. I mean, I, I, I also sometimes buy products or services because it's exciting to buy and then I realize, oh, I'm not really ready to use it, or I'm not dedicated enough to that pro process to. Engage with it. Right? So I myself, ha ha, ha have both parts in myself, but , that's the one part is like, oh my gosh, bye bye bye.

[00:17:38] And then, okay, I'm not really ready to, to, to, to, to do the the challenging work or the, the long-term work, you might say, of gradually making changes, you know, that create, create a different life. So that's one, one type or one part. And then the second type of person or second part is the person who.

[00:17:57] More considerate about buying something [00:18:00] and once they buy it, they, they might even before they buy it, they might even go, you know, Hey, how long are the calls? And let me make sure I have them on my calendar. And how long does it take to do the homework? , you know You know, and, and then once they, they buy it very considerably.

[00:18:15] And then once they buy it, they've already maybe even calendared in or they've set up their, their structures to actually use the product or service or program. And they're going to come to the q and a calls. They're going to ask questions, they're going to to apply things, and then they're gonna report back, and they're gonna see the changes in their life, you know?

[00:18:37] Like I said, we have both parts within ourselves, depending on what we're buying and, and what stage of life we're in right now. Right. And both types of people, or both parts are within every single socioeconomic strattice, within every single price point. There are both types of people. I just, I realized that.

[00:18:58] Mm-hmm. , because Sarah, [00:19:00] With the $2,000 people who were spending $2,000 with me just like that left and right. I mean, I, I literally have been, I remember, you know, the height of my high ticket days, you know, 2012 or something. I was on a webinar, selling on a webinar, my own product, and I got 35 people on that webinar to buy my $2,000.

[00:19:25] So it was a $70,000 webinar for me, , right? I made $70,000 in an hour. Mm-hmm. and, and 35 people bought it. And I'm like, and then later on, as I, you know, did all 35, of course there, among the 35, there were some people who loved the buying experience. Not so much the application and then some people who actually, a few people who thoughtfully applied to everything, right?

[00:19:48] But I was feeling guilty, obviously, of the, those who didn't apply things and just moved on to another product. So Sarah, so basically there, there's that. So there doesn't matter if you charged [00:20:00] $10,000 or Okay. Maybe a hundred thousand dollars. Well, even a hundred thousand dollars. I mean, I, I've heard of coaching programs that charge a hundred.

[00:20:07] right? Yeah. They're out there and you might say, well, gosh, a hundred thousand, I mean, you, you must be, you, you must be like, maybe, hopefully considerate for months or for, you know, you, you should ask everybody, you know, should I spend this money? No. Some people make millions a year. Yeah, right? And, or some people have millions and they're like, a hundred thousand dollars.

[00:20:25] Great. You know, maybe they, right. It's like every single price point, there are people for whom that's not a big deal. Mm-hmm. , you see what I mean? Mm-hmm. and, and what, what was sad for? Was the people who spent the 2000 with me, for whom it was a big deal. And yet even some of those people love the buying experience and are not ready or not willing to, to do the work.

[00:20:48] So, like I said, every single price point, there are these two types of people. And the other examples there, I, my books at this time of this recording, my books are $5 on kind. . All my [00:21:00] books actually, my, my spiritual book is $1 on Kindle. Doesn't matter. My business books are all $5 on Kindle and I have some $5 book readers who email me and say, George, in chapter, you know, chapter 17, you talk about like, Hey George, I read your book, book and cover to cover.

[00:21:17] I've read all your books and I've been applying it de and then they comment on my videos. And there are people of these two. every single price point, right? People who buy my books who like study it like, you know, on their nightstand. I mean, people tell me, George, I have your books on my nightstand, and I read the, I read a big a bit every morning or every night, and then I think about it, I'm like, This is wonderful.

[00:21:38] Thank you. And yet I have what you're saying, basically, George, is that it doesn't matter really whether it's these two types of people, $50,000 investment or a five, $7 investment. Like I said, I, I have literally been to a conference where this, you know, I, I, I went to the conf. It was it was a Brendan Bashard conference I remember.

[00:21:59] [00:22:00] And at the end of the conference, he sold his $10,000. $10,000 Mastermind or whatever, mastermind with several hundred people in the mastermind, so-called. And my buddy, I met a buddy there and we, we, we struck up, became really good friends. I thought we would be lifelong friends and we were so excited we were sharing.

[00:22:16] And then he said, yeah, I'm signing up. And he signed up for it. I didn't because I was like, 10,000 that that's gonna, yeah, it's not really my price point. He signed up and I followed up with him. I said, how did it go? Whatever. And. I could, from what I could tell, he moved on to another program. Mm-hmm. . So 10,000 for him was just like, oh yeah, that's then 10,000.

[00:22:35] So, so that's so interesting that there are people Yes. Typically, I, I, I ho I, I think, you know, if, if you look at some kind of curve, there are these two types of people. Yes. The, the higher the price you go. The more considerate people who are considerably buying that thing than people who are buying an impulse and just moving on.

[00:22:55] Mm-hmm. Sure, there's more of them, but still there are lots of people who buy [00:23:00] on impulse or without the structure to apply. Yeah. Well, given that this is the Humane Marketing Podcast. Yes, yes. I mean, 10 years ago maybe you and I would've told everybody, well just, you know, try it out to put up a $50,000 program and you'll get those people who buy on impulse and Yes.

[00:23:21] And who cares, you know, as long as you make your 500 K per year and you're gonna be happy. Yeah, exactly. Well, that's not the conversation that we're having here, and, and I know that. I heard that from you. It's like, well, my integrity told me to change direction and do something different. And so you, you lowered your prices, like you said.

[00:23:46] And so that's where you're at now, right? You, you still have the group programs, but at a lower price point. Mm-hmm. . Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting cuz I'm just, right now as of this recording in. [00:24:00] Annual phase of launching my group program. Now it's two group programs for the next year. Mm-hmm. . And one of them is essentially you know, 2,400 for the year, and one is 1200 for the year, and 2,400 is my high ticket now.

[00:24:18] Mm-hmm. , where they get three q and a calls with me a week. , it's like there's only 25 members allowed in that. It's like my highest premium is not 50,000, it's not 10,000. And after all these years, it started 2009. After all these years, my highest ticket is 2,400 a year and they get like the most attention from me and I get to know them the best and all that stuff.

[00:24:40] And, and it's, and guess. , it's enough money for me. Mm-hmm. even, even though I live in San Francisco. Yeah. Yeah. You live in an expensive place in the, I live in one of the most expensive cities in the world, and yet, , I have set up my lifestyle and I've set up my price points and my business model such that, well, of [00:25:00] course you have to think about how many I sell.

[00:25:02] And, and from 2009, now my audience is ab obviously bigger than it used to be, and I'm able to fill enough spots in my programs where I'm like, that's enough. And it's, and the, and the questions there that I think everybody needs to continually ask is, what is success? and why everybody? We learn, not everybody, not, not you and me, right.

[00:25:24] Certainly. But a lot of the marketing people we learn from. It's like always more money. Always more money. I, I, I have a hobby of following the Facebook ads of people in my industry. Mm-hmm. . And every time I look at the ads, I'm like, you just, you're always selling more money or you're selling, oh, just copy, paste these emails or, or copy paste this webinar funnel I have and then suddenly you have all these clients.

[00:25:46] I'm like, You know Right. I, I've been there, , I've been all over, I, I've been around all this and it's always, it's always these people like selling. I, I make 54 million a year. I'm like, really? Like, [00:26:00] yeah. And, and, and, and it's the, the question again is, is success means you have to make more money every single year?

[00:26:08] Yeah. Or is there a different metric of success that is more sustain? in every way and more and le and more personally meaningful, you know? Yeah, yeah. I think that that's exactly what we're talking about in humane marketing. Yes. That's where it all starts. It's with your def definition of success, and not just because of personal wealth, but also humane marketing really tackles.

[00:26:38] You know, our planetary health and wealth and enoughness and, and if we all are still in this individualism where we are actually making 54 million. Per year. What does that mean for the rest of the world? Right. And what does that mean with climate change? Because as far as I know, it's [00:27:00] not those kind of people who are then, you know, using that money for good and investing back.

[00:27:05] No, they're still, you know, getting more jets and more cars and more and more and more. Yeah. They're still in that old business model. That. Yeah. That was very, you and I grew up in that business model, but it's time to change. Yeah. And I, I wanna, yeah, I want you to tell us more about this because you say in that article, I recommend charging your fees based on enoughness and I, you just explained a little bit of what that means for you.

[00:27:35] Yes, yes. But I also really wanna highlight that this is different. everyone. Mm-hmm. , because clearly our listeners course are not where you are at now, right? Yeah. They don't have a huge audience, they're just starting out. Sure, of course. And so I sometimes have a problem with. You know people like us who have our kind of experience right.

[00:27:57] Saying, you know, you shouldn't do this, [00:28:00] or height prices are not good. And there's kind of this trend of going lower and lower. Yeah. But then people who don't think about this enoughness, well they don't have enough if they're charging or people who are working on that part. Yeah. Yeah. So tell us more about that.

[00:28:17] Enough. Yeah, absolutely. I, I totally hear you. So. Whether we should charge higher or lower fees? Depends on, well, like I said, I think okay, so enoughness aside, it depends on. How many we can confidently enroll . Right. So it it, okay. It depends on, depends on how much are we expecting and requiring of our business to support our lifestyle.

[00:28:47] That's where it starts. Yeah. How much do we need, right? Yes. How much do we need specifically from our business, because Right. We might our, our, our, our grocery bill, our our rent, [00:29:00] our mortgage. , some of that money might come from other income sources or other wealth sources or whatever. I mean, yeah, some of us are lucky to have some family support.

[00:29:08] I don't have any, but some people have family support. Some people have savings. Some people have a part-time job, some people have other sources of money, right? And so the question is, how much are you requiring from your business? Because the more you require from your business, then the more stressed you have.

[00:29:26] Let's think about. The more stress your business has, right? It's like, I must like who, who, who says you have to make $10,000 from your business. Well, maybe you, but who says, why do you say you have to make, you know, if I talking, it's like, where, where did that come from? Like, you know, like, because the more money you require of your business, the more stress for your business is the more marketing you have to do, the more people you have to recruit the higher price.

[00:29:50] Like it's all, it's all true. And. So that's really the first question I have. But, but let's say, okay, well, George, okay. I don't have a part-time income. I don't have family[00:30:00] support. I don't have savings. I have to make all my mortgage and rent and grocery bill, and, you know, insurance, whatever you're paying for from my business.

[00:30:10] And what the question, of course is, is that true? Like, like, might it be a better and less stressful idea to get a part-time job? I don't know. Or to ask for some family support if that's, you know, reasonable, whatever. . Okay. Now that you've gotten some number that you require of your business thoughtfully, so, all right, fine.

[00:30:31] Then my question is, how do you even, what, is that realistic for you to require that from your business? Or did you just come up your business coach or someone said you should be able to make 5,000 from your business? Well, is that because I, I always tell, I always ask people, when people gimme a number to say, George, I'm gonna make $10,000 or a hundred thousand dollars.

[00:30:48] This. Okay, help me do that. I'm like, I can help you, but my first question for you is how did you come up with that number of making X dollars for this launch? Because, and usually it's [00:31:00] mainstream success definitions, you know, six figure, seven figure business, whatever. Because, because the thing is, I also have targets for my launches, but my targets, my, my numbers are very reasonably based on guess.

[00:31:15] Pattern recognition past history of my launches, because it's like George, someone comes to George, I, you gotta make me make a 50,000 launch this time. I'm like, let me ask you, what was your last launch of this product? Mm-hmm. for this size of an audience. Right. Oh, my last launch, I never launched this product.

[00:31:34] I never, I don't have an audience. I'm a never launched before and now you're gonna say you're gonna fit. I'm like, how did you come up with that? Because, The first time we, we could make 50,000 in this launch. We could. It's a possibility, or we could make $500 this launch. W the first launch is the start of the pattern.

[00:31:52] It's the start of the history of your numbers so that we can then go, well, last launch you made 10,000. [00:32:00] Great, wonderful. This launch. Let's aim for, what do you wanna aim for? 15. , do you wanna aim for 12,000? Do you wanna aim for 20,000? Okay, well that means something has changed dramatically. If you're gonna go from 10,000 last launch to 20,000 this launch, something must have changed dramatically.

[00:32:14] Mm-hmm. , did your audience grow double? Are you using a different strategy that any strategy that's different that you're using is always test? , it's always an experiment. Are you gonna change strategies on me? Okay. If you use the same strategy, same size audience you made 10,000 last time. If they're not fatigued by that launch yet, if they, if, if you think a lot of people haven't bought yet, then we might make 10,000 because of everything kept the same, right?

[00:32:40] So in other words, I tell, the reason why I'm saying all this is because it reflects it. It therefore says what our pricing. Because you go, because my question is how many are you going to enroll this time? You know, when I say launch, I don't mean for the person who's at George. I don't have a [00:33:00] product. I just have a one-to-one service that's just ongoing.

[00:33:04] So when they say launch, I don't understand what you mean. Here's what I mean. A launch in my definition is simp. A concerted EF effort to let your audience know about your service. That's it. Mm-hmm. So what, what I tell people is, I'd say gentle launches , which I think you'll really resonate with too, and you can borrow that if you want, but I say gentle launches, which basically means two emails.

[00:33:29] that's it. Two emails to our list. If we have a list. If we don't have a list, don't worry. Two posts on social media. Wherever you have some Facebook, you have three Facebook friends, fine. That's . That's you're launching to three people, right? Right. You have LinkedIn's, you have 30 LinkedIn connections. Fine.

[00:33:44] You post on LinkedIn, you're launching, quote unquote a 30 people. That's what a launch is, is simply posting twice, right? Is what I call a gentle. Anyway, so my question is how many, so. I always tell my, my, my audience, please do a gentle [00:34:00] launch every month if you can, if not every two months, at least. So the my question is, okay, every time you do a gentle launch of two emails or two posts, or both, how many do you expect to enroll?

[00:34:12] So George, I don't know because I've never, I've never enrolled anyone. Okay, fine. We're gonna keep going until you enrolls you, until your gentle launch enrolls people, we'll have to tweak, you know, your launch materials, your, your launch messaging, your offer, blah, blah, blah. Anyway, but when we, we'll keep launching until you say, oh my gosh, this, this launch got netted me 10 clients Wonder.

[00:34:33] Wonderful. Good. So then next one I wanna, I wanna interrupt you because I wanna bring in the pricing conversation in, in this piece. Yes. So, so if this is a new client who's never had anyone enroll or even just had a one-on-one client Yeah. What's your conversation there then? Do you kind of advise to go a bit higher prices?

[00:34:54] So, because they somehow, the reason. Sustain their living. Yeah. Yeah. Or do you say, well, [00:35:00] you don't have that much ex experience. Let us start with a lower price just like I do. Yeah. But then it's not really equal because you have volume. Yeah. And they don't. Yeah. So you see where I'm going with this. So the reason why I said all these numbers about the launches is because I, I believe we should set our price based on how many we can confidently enroll.

[00:35:23] Mm. , right? Because if I can confidently enroll a hundred people, my price doesn't have to be as high if I, of whatever I'm requiring of my business, it's all kind of cascading down to this moment, right? So if you say, George, I have no idea how many I can enroll. I'm just starting. So what should I charge?

[00:35:44] Here's, here's my advice on that. You charge what you you charge. The number that is the perfect balance, which of course we're always finding that perfect balance. You charge in numbers that is the right [00:36:00] balance between what you feel so confident you can deliver a great experience, if not results, at least a good experience.

[00:36:10] right, if not results. You confident. That number that you're charging is like, I'm, I'm feeling really good about this. I feel like, I feel like, guess what? I feel like they're getting a good. . Mm-hmm. . Yeah. And I don't feel resentful. I, that's, that's where the balance is. I feel good. I don't feel resentful charging this at this number.

[00:36:25] Mm-hmm. and I also, they not only do I feel they're getting a good deal, they tell me it's a good deal. Mm-hmm. , see that's the thing, because Sarah, you know, somewhat could come on, could come to you. Go, Sarah, I think you're an amazing deal at a thousand dollars an hour. If I could spend an hour with you, a thousand bucks, easy, sign me up.

[00:36:45] And if you. Yeah, I'm giving people a really good value, great experience. I mean, my time is so valuable. A thousand dollars an hour. No problem. Then I said, please charge a thousand dollars an hour, because there you got that balance between. Between, [00:37:00] maybe you would say, George, I would feel resentful if I charge 500 an hour because my time is worth more than that.

[00:37:05] I feel my time is worth more because I could be doing many other things and I would start to feel resentful at 500 or seven 50 or 900 an hour and thousand makes me feel like, okay, you know, that feels good. That feels right. . Good then. Then again there, there's that. There's that balance between your feelings and the market's feelings and if the mark, if your audience, your market goes great, a thousand dollars an hour, great.

[00:37:26] Easy sign up. Then I would say a thousand. But then a lot of people might go, wow, a thousand dollars. I don't know. I would feel badly if I charge someone a thousand, cuz how? What can I give them in an hour that's worth a thousand in my heart, in my experience, my ground? And I said, fine. Then we have to keep going.

[00:37:41] until we get to a number where you're like, oh yeah, 150 an hour. I feel like I could really deliver great value and the market agrees with me. There's the number. It's so complex, isn't it? There's so much to it. There's our own integrity. There's the fact whether we're just, that's why there's no starting out or not.

[00:37:58] There's no formula. There's no [00:38:00] formula is not there really is. It's there like you're a starting coach, therefore it's 75. Who says that? I mean, maybe the formula is such that there's a market message out. , right? There's, there's, there's market rates and maybe the mark. Of course, how we feel is right for us to charge is influenced by the market rates.

[00:38:19] We see the people around us charging this amount, that amount of course that influences us and the amounts we've paid also, right? Like, like, you know my wife, she pays quite a lot for her coach. And at first, at first I was a little resentful of. Obviously we, we, we share money, we won't tell. And so I'm like, I'm like, oh, you're paying that much for your coach.

[00:38:43] I'm like, oh, maybe you should try something. But then over the years I realized that the fact that she's paying it, it up-leveled her sense of the money as well. Mm-hmm. Because she's like, well, I'm paying, you know 200 an hour here, so maybe I may, maybe charging [00:39:00] 175 an hour for me. Just fine cuz you, you see what I mean?

[00:39:03] So it's like, it's, it's, it's bo it's everything. It's the market. It's what we see people charging is what we pay ourselves. And that informs sort of our own intuition about things. And then when, then we, we go out there and we charge that money and we see what people say to us. And that whole thing has to do with how we build our credibility and all that as well.

[00:39:21] Right. . Yeah. And then there's the complexity of do we offer this time one-on-one or is it in a group group setting? Yeah. It's a huge difference. Yeah, because another thing you mentioned in that article is, you know, you found that higher fees decrease client inquiries. So if you start charging a thousand dollars for a one-on-one session, go ahead, give it a try.

[00:39:42] You're, you're gonna have a difficult or a more difficult time to find. At that price, but I would argue it depends whether. You maybe don't want all these clients, like Sure, course I give you my example. [00:40:00] I, I clearly say I only work with three one-on-one clients at a time. Yes. There we go. And I want it that way.

[00:40:07] It's deliberate. That's how my energy works. I cannot Beautiful work with more people. One-on one probably should The program at one on one hour or something. Yeah. Yeah. And, and so that's, it's not a thousand per hour, that's for sure. But it's a, it's a higher investment. , you know, it, it is deliberately so, and, and I'm, it doesn't come from that argument.

[00:40:29] Yeah. You know, you need to charge more so people actually do the work. That's not how I reflected and came up with that number. Right. But it, it's more about, well, . If I lower my prices, then I need to hustle more. That's because then that I have right. All these clients and yes, oh my God. And yes. And then I don't feel good.

[00:40:50] That's, and I don't That's right. Have time to focus on my community, which is a very low investment. Yes. Right? Yes, yes, yes. And that takes me actually just as much time as [00:41:00] the one-on-one clients. Yeah, of course. Yeah. But I enjoy spending my time there. Yes. Right. And so it's also, you set up your business model about your own.

[00:41:10] what you want, you know? Yeah. Not just what your clients want, what you, what do you want as well. Yeah, yeah. You're exactly right. I mean, there are I mean, back to example of my wife who is a therapist. Like she used to see 18 to 20 client hours per week. and there are therapists who see even, hi, like I've heard a therapist who see 22 to 25.

[00:41:34] I mean, that's a lot. Yes. I mean, it, it's like emotional labor, a lot of emotional labor, you know, all that presence and all. It's interesting. But anyway, it's like, now, you know, now she doesn't want to spend as much energy on that, and now she's like, and now the rate goes up. And so, so absolutely. It's like you, you, we, we need to set.

[00:41:54] You know, with experience, with the grounded experience of what we enjoy doing, what where [00:42:00] we feel like we're giving the best value, we need to set up our business model such that it the business model has to do with our gifts, our talent, and our. and our pricing, and it's like we set that up in such a way that, okay, I have a group thing here.

[00:42:18] I have a one-to-one thing here. Maybe I sell online courses, you know, et cetera, et cetera. Yeah. Maybe I sometimes do intensives or retreats. I offer that, you know, et cetera. Yeah. . Yeah. I like the mix because that feels like that's fair, right? There's different options. Mm-hmm. . Yes. And your clients, depending on where they're at, they choose what they can afford and you know what feels good for them as well.

[00:42:41] Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. And so it, so this whole thing of like motivating let's talk about a bit about that because mm-hmm. , that's kind of where I first heard. , it's you, you charge more. Could you get people who are more willing to apply, more willing to like, like I, you [00:43:00] know, we started from that in the very beginning.

[00:43:01] Yeah. But then the question is, well then if I, if I'm not using the high price to motivate people, how do I motivate them? Mm-hmm. . Okay. And I say there's basically two ways. One way is, well, you've got to learn how to structure your program. more effectively, whether your one-on-one program or your group program.

[00:43:25] You have some accountability structures in there. You have sort of like easy onboarding, stepping in so that they start to feel momentum. I mean, you gotta, these are all program design questions that the more experience you get at that, the more you go, okay, this is how I really, I I don't overwhelm people in the beginning or whatever.

[00:43:43] Like, get them going and get them seeing that they're, it's possible. Oh my gosh, this, there's something possible here. I'm gonna keep going. I'm gonna invest more of my energy cuz sure you got them to invest the money. , but it's a whole other skillset. Get them to invest their energy, right? Mm-hmm. . So, so, because [00:44:00] that's just as, that's more important, even for their own transformation.

[00:44:02] So that's one side of it is like program design. And then the other side of it is, you might say credibility because the more, like, I'll give you an example, right? , everyone probably most people here have heard of Brene Brown. Mm-hmm. or, or, or let's say Tony Robbins. Pick, pick your, pick your I prefer Brene Brown, but doesn't matter.

[00:44:25] Pick your influencer that you really respect, right? Mm-hmm. , if you got into a program with Brene Brown that you were able to easily afford, hopefully it doesn't, you know, caught you a second mortgage, but you, you, you got into a program with Brene Brown, you could afford it. and you get personal time with her in some way, or, I mean, we would all work our butts off probably, right?

[00:44:47] Mm-hmm. , we wanna show up, right? Because she has so much credibility with so many of us. Mm-hmm. Again, pick your influence or pick your thought leader that you really, really respect. Right? Doesn't have to be someone famous. Someone [00:45:00] who is listening to this podcast, Michael, my gosh, if I could be one of Sarah's three clients, knowing that she, she only picks three people to work with at a time, I'm.

[00:45:08] I'm gonna work my butt off. I'm gonna, I'm gonna show up. I don't have to hustle and like, but I'm gonna really dedicate my self structure. Right. That's the credibility piece, right? Yeah. Right. Like, like that is what marketing at its best is about, is showing up with such trustworthiness that credibility is.

[00:45:35] Well-deserved credibility is created and when there's such kind of credibility and they, they then, then, even if you're not so good at program design, on the aspect of they, it's this balance. It's like the more credibility you have with them. The more likely they're gonna do stuff as when they buy. And then of course the better the GR program designed, the easier it is for them to do it.

[00:45:54] So, so that's how I think we should be motivating, aside from the price [00:46:00] point, which is a separate discussion, the motivating part really should happen in that way. So I love that you brought that in and it, and it kind of, you know, brings us full circle also to humane marketing or authentic marketing like you call it.

[00:46:15] We're really Yeah. Motivating the client already before he, she buys the program, right? Yes. Yes. And that also means empowering them. That's right. I really find that it's time to give our clients the power back. Yeah. Lead them invite. Them to make a decision, a buying deci decision, but not push them down some kind of funnel and, and buy just so we can make a profit.

[00:46:43] So it's that empowering piece that we need to really, that's great practice with humane par marketing. I love that. Yes. Empowerment is right because the traditional, conventional marketers are essentially trying to control. [00:47:00] As much as possible. Yeah, disempowerment, that's true. Right? Because think about it, like all the stuff they teach, right?

[00:47:06] Like again, me surfing my Facebook, the Facebook ads and seeing the people on my industry and goes, do you just have to, you know, copy paste this or do this and set up the system and then you'll get people salivating. to buy from you. And then I, I literally saw , Sarah, you, I literally saw a video ad just yesterday, a client in my sentence to me, cuz they, he thought I'd find it amusing.

[00:47:29] I found it scary, right? Because the, this person, this video ad was saying, what is this? These are the, the emotional color wheel. And in my program I'm gonna teach you how to get your potential clients through the, through ex, having them experience fear and then anger, and then greed, and then blah, blah, blah, blah, all this stuff.

[00:47:49] So finally they'll buy from you cuz you, God. I'm like, okay. . Let's, in short, let me teach you how to manipulate people based on their emotion, the emotional [00:48:00] vulnerability and their susceptibility to buying. Because you've put them through these, these, these experiential states that you have designed, you know, with the, with an ulterior motive, right?

[00:48:12] Mm-hmm. . And so, and that, that's that. Persuasion psychology at its best. Mm. Yeah. Sarah, right? Like you at its worst, let's just say, because at its worst. Just making things clear here. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But, but it's, this is what people learn. The, the, the conventional, and frankly, if I could say this is, this is a real term, right?

[00:48:32] Yeah. Psychopathic marketing. I, I don't mean to trigger people, but, but really, I mean, if you, if you, if you study psychology, And understand what psychopathy is. Psychopathic ex, you know, personality types, narcissism and all that stuff. It's people who are are, who don't have any qualms about bringing people through the emotional states so they can get the way they want.

[00:48:57] Right. Essentially. Exactly. Yeah. So, [00:49:00] so that's, that's you and I, Sarah, are basically seeing that and go, oh my God, I, I'll say I myself have learned from those things. I myself have done those things. Same. Yeah. It never sat, it never sat. Right. Which is why I stopped in 20 12, 20 13. I broke down, like my, my, I had this kind of spiritual breakdown.

[00:49:18] I'm like, I can't do, if this is going to be my career, I'm, I quit. I don't want it. . It's like, sure, the money's coming in, but it's like, it feels so bad every day and they're telling me that you, they're telling me this is success. Yeah. You know, and I'm like, this is success. I, I basically gave it all up and I, I, I, I ended up taking on this hero.

[00:49:39] Sarah, you might appreciate this person called him Peace Pilgrim. Hmm. I don't know if you've heard of Peace Pilgrim, but never heard of him. Okay. She is, she lived she, she died in 19, 19 83. And this person's amazing. I'll just tell you this two minute story. She [00:50:00] grew up and had an early, early success in her life.

[00:50:02] I guess she's very smart and had early success in her career, and then found it very meaningless. And one day she went into the woods for a whole night just to contemplate about the meaning of life. And she came out of the woods that day and. I'm not gonna work for money anymore. Mm-hmm. , and this is radical.

[00:50:20] This is a radical person. I'm not she's my hero. I'm not. She's my hero in terms of values. I'm not like literally gonna sell everything I own, but that's what she did. Okay. So this is one of the classic stories, and she really made it work. She sold everything she owned and became a walking pilgrim. She walked from one end of America to the other end something.

[00:50:41] 20 times in her lifetime, something like that. Oh, she walked, she did the, she did this. Some people like heard her hear her story and some some you know, sort of like I idealistic, you know, 20 somethings, try it out. And I, I heard the story of some idealistic 20 something, trying it out and like going back home to mommy after two days and go, I can't do this.

[00:50:59] Let me [00:51:00] get a job. Right. No, this is an extraordinary saying. I mean, she, she literally did this not for two days or two months, 30 years. And, and the, the only reason she stopped doing it, so I, the iron, the biggest irony cuz she, she did this, she became famous. Walking, walking throughout America. What did she do?

[00:51:18] She walk, she basically, she only, she helped everyone that she saw. Everyone who needed help, she went and helped them. And she never asked for money and she never asked for shelter or food. She, she just, she never asked for anything. And only when people go, would you like to stay at my home tonight? Would you like to stay at my barn?

[00:51:37] Or would you like a meal? Every, otherwise, she was sleeping on the highway. She, she took blueberries from the road. She just, she never asked for anything. She only received, and she helped everybody for 30 years. She just walked like this and then finally she got so famous. She was giving talks now, right?

[00:51:53] Mm-hmm. people invited her. She never took a single penny for her talks. People just invited her. They wanted her inspiration. [00:52:00] So in one of these talks, someone said, insist to give her a ride. They had a car accident and she. In a car accident. Isn't that interesting? Like she, so anyway, so, so long story short, I had this spiritual, I learned about her story.

[00:52:17] I learned about other things. I had a spiritual breakdown, breakthrough in 20 12, 20 13, 20 14. Those years, like I just wrestling and struggling with what the meaning of life was and what my career should be. And in 2014 I reemerged and I said, I'm gonna, I'm gonna stop doing those high ticket things. I mean, whatever I was doing, I knew didn't feel right.

[00:52:36] I don't know what the right part is. I was still trying to figure out humane marketing, right? I didn't know any of this stuff. And so I'd start experimenting like, doing one to one, like at the lowest price I could possibly charge. Again, finding that balance. Ah, this would feel resentful. This would just, just be outside.

[00:52:52] the resentment point. Back then, I think I was charging like 125 an hour. You know, as many clients as who wanted to sign up, you know, just, and [00:53:00] then, so just kind of like gradually, gradually increase, increase, and then started a group program charging, I don't know what it was. I think charging $50 an hour for a group 50 $50 a month for a group program.

[00:53:10] Then and like gradually, gradually raising it, raising it, raising it. Just gradually. So as my, like I said, that balance between, ah, this would feel resentful, you know, and this would not, that I just kept, kept going up from there. Shining that zone. Yeah. Finding it. Yeah, exactly. Right. And then to today, like, okay, yeah, this number feels right, this number feels right, and then the markets seems to be responding.

[00:53:33] I have also, Sarah, like, I, like, I've also sometimes raised my rates too quickly. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Whether it's online course or, but it, it just shows that it's such an experiment and, and, you know, and, and also what I appreciate from, from your story is that it takes time to Yes. Really grow into the price that is right and kind of giving yourself permission to try it out slowly.

[00:53:59] And, [00:54:00] and I think most importantly, listen to necessarily what everybody else is telling you out there. Yeah. But listen to Yeah. Your gut and, and just make sure. Also, I just wanna say it out again that you're, you have enough for yourself because you can't be a humane marketer if you're not also caring for yourself.

[00:54:21] You, that's right. You want to care for your clients and the plan, but you also need to care for yourself. And you know what's, what's interesting is that enoughness. I had such a radical experience of listening to, and I recommend this to everybody. Peace, Pilgrim, audiobook. You just Google it? Mm-hmm. , it's free , of course it's free on SoundCloud at this time, and it's been free for all these years, 10 years, and it's still free.

[00:54:45] So I'm, I hope, I expect I keep it for free, but the voice, it was actually not P Peace Program's voice who recorded it was like a voice. Friend of hers, but that voice along with peace, Pilgrim's words, is like the perfect combination and like settled me so much and it gave [00:55:00] me this feeling, Sarah, like, okay, no matter what Sarah, if Peace Pilgrim could have done it at that enoughness level, literally like never asking a single dime and like just waiting until F Food and Shelter came to her.

[00:55:16] like, okay, that's like if someone was able to live like that, like. If I ever have to go homeless , right? I'll just be a peace pilgram. Obviously that's not, you know, realistic for the vast majority of us. It isn't, but it, it is almost like you have to come down to that level. And that's why I always say in, in, you know, when I talk about gentle sales and the yes, the serene garden and, and all that, I say, you are.

[00:55:44] even if you never, ever make a sale anymore, . And I think that that is so important That's right. For people to understand. Yeah. And, and it, it's not something you just say you really, it's almost like you have to somehow go through some kind of breakdown in order to [00:56:00] realize Right. That well, and, and actually say, I'll say this.

[00:56:02] All of us go through periods of low. , right? Yeah. Still to this day. Of course. Yeah, of course. I mean, I, even though thankfully I have been structuring my system so that my income is very, but it's like there are still certain launches that surprise me. I go, huh, wow, that was not as high as I expected. I mean, we all have relative numbers.

[00:56:23] Low for me, maybe a while. He saw 50 courses that for that, right? But low for someone, maybe zero, right? I've had zero myself in the past. Right? So we all have periods of low sales and that period of low sales, I. instead of feeling easily to feel depressed or or afraid right or, or sad, or feeling low self-worth, or whatever.

[00:56:43] Instead of that, here's my invitation. The next time we experience the inevitable low period, low sales moment, I hope we'll go. Oh. This is that opportunity that Sarah and George are talking about to remember and remind [00:57:00] and feel into the enoughness again of who we are right now in this moment. Mm-hmm.

[00:57:05] Because if Peace Pilgrim could do it, and she was the happiest person that people knew around her, everyone around her goes, I've never met a happier person in my life. And she has nothing. Right Literal. Yeah, so it's like if we can sense into our current enoughness around us, like thankfully, hopefully this month we can pay rent, or if not, let's move to a cheaper place.

[00:57:26] You know, nobody can sense to enoughness then. Then everything from there is abundance , right? Gratitude and the gratitudes there ironically, I think does shift. Whether you wanna call it vibrational frequency or whether you wanna just say that the gratitude gives us a positive attitude, which keeps us going.

[00:57:46] It does bring, I think, better business over time. . You know, it really does. Yeah. Practice it every night, . Ah, yes. Good. This has been beautiful. Thank you so much for this [00:58:00] deep conversation about pricing. Go figure. You know, only two introverts can go deep on pricing . Exactly. So love it. Thank you so much.

[00:58:10] Please tell people where they can find you and thankfully find out about your courses. They could Google me. My name George Cow. K a o g e o r g e k a O. Just google my name and you could go wherever, you know, my website or social media or whatever stuff is great. Yes, . Yeah. Wonderful. So thank you so much.

[00:58:30] Thank you Sarah, for inviting me to this. You know, I knew we would have a great conversation and yeah, thank you for being such a great host and yeah, creator of this podcast. So thank you for. Loved it. Thank you so much for coming on. Yeah, thanks. Take care.

[00:58:48] George outro: I hope you enjoyed this episode and you can find out more about George and his [email protected]. That's K a o.com. George has [00:59:00] recorded over thousand videos and mini talks for his YouTube channel, and you can watch the best ones without opting [email protected] slash videos. You'll find the show notes with all of these links of this [email protected] slash H 1 55.

[00:59:22] And on this beautiful page, you'll also find a series of free offers, such as my Saturday newsletter, the Humane Business Manifesto in the free gentle confidence mini course, as well as my two books, marketing like we're human and selling like we're human. And if you're an audiobook fan, I have good news.

[00:59:40] Marketing like We're Human is now available in audio format on Audible or anywhere else where you get your audiobooks. Of course, read by yours truly. Thanks so much for listening and being part of a generation of marketers who cares for yourself, your clients, and the [01:00:00] planet. We are change makers before we are marketers.

[01:00:03] So now go be the change you want to see in the world. Speak soon.