The Humane Marketing Show. A podcast for a generation of marketers who care.

Today I thought I'd record a solo episode, muse episode like I call them, with no intro and outro music, just raw non scripted content as if we were sitting at a cafee together, sipping hot chocolate. 

I thought I'd review what happened this year, for myself, but hopefully it's interesting also for you as I'm sharing what I learned, mistakes I made what went well etc.

I talk about things like: 

• Marketing Like We're Human program in January 2022

• our Morocco trip in April

• Trademark: the mess continues

• Recording the Marketing Like We're Human Audio book

• The Mandala & Marketing Adult Coloring books

• My difficult summer

• Marketing Like We're Human August cohort

• October in Sicily

• Humane Marketing Circle doubles

• Started collaborative workshops

• Books sell and I get lovely feedback

• Humane Marketing is in the Zeitgeist 

• My theme for 2023

What's next business wise? 

• Marketing Like We're Human program in January - info session on Jan 12th

• first Humane Marketing Circle of the year on Jan 11 - we found out 3 people, including myself have their birthday on Jan 10
  2 Circle workshops monthly, a new platform soon (similar to Mighty Networks)

• Mandala & Networking on Jan 31st, open to everyone

• More collab workshops

• Podcast continues every 2 weeks

• Hopefully get invited to 2 or 3 relevant summits for entrepreneurs

  
  All of that while reconnecting with nature. 
  
  

  Wishing you a peaceful rest of the year!!

 

Sarah's Resources

(FREE) Sarah's One Page Marketing Plan

(FREE) Sarah Suggests Newsletter

(FREE) The Humane Business Manifesto

(FREE) Gentle Confidence Mini-Course

Marketing Like We're Human - Sarah's book

The Humane Marketing Circle

Authentic & Fair Pricing Mini-Course

Podcast Show Notes

We use Descript to edit our episodes and it's fantastic!

Email Sarah at [email protected]

 

Thanks for listening!

After you listen, check out Humane Business Manifesto, an invitation to belong to a movement of people who do business the humane and gentle way and disrupt the current marketing paradigm. You can download it for free at this page. There's no opt-in. Just an instant download.

Are you enjoying the podcast?  The Humane Marketing show is listener-supported—I'd love for you to become an active supporter of the show and join the Humane Marketing Circle. You will be invited to a private monthly Q&A call with me and fellow Humane Marketers -  a safe zone to hang out with like-minded conscious entrepreneurs and help each other build our business and grow our impact.  — I'd love for you to join us! Learn more at humane.marketing/circle

Don't forget to subscribe to the show on iTunes or on Android to get notified for all my future shows and why not sign up for my weekly(ish) "Sarah Suggests Saturdays", a round-up of best practices, tools I use, books I read, podcasts, and other resources.

Raise your hand and join the Humane Business Revolution.

Warmly,

Sarah

Today's topic is Ethical Marketing and I'm speaking to Alica Karolina about it.

Alice is a brand coach + strategist and the founder of The Ethical Move, working with changemakers to find + use their voice. She believes making an impact in a changing world requires a new way of thinking and communicating — businesses that stand out tell stories of substance, share products that serve the world, and sell with integrity. It takes courage to fully trust oneself and leave the status quo behind. But if we stop looking outside for answers, we discover we already have the power, knowledge, and ability to make this world work for everyone.

In this episode, you'll learn about ethical marketing as well as...

 

• Ethics and how Alice defines it for her Ethical Move
• Whether marketing is unethical by default
• The unethical practices we've all being bombarded with daily
• How we can change those into ethical practices - and still sell.
• How the new economy can look like if it was up to us
• How you too can take the ethical pledge
• And so much more

Alice's Resources

 

Alice's Website

The Ethical Move

Connect with Alice on:

LinkedIn

Facebook

 

Sarah's Resources

Watch this episode on Youtube

(FREE) Sarah's One Page Marketing Plan

(FREE) Sarah Suggests Newsletter

(FREE) The Humane Business Manifesto

(FREE) Gentle Confidence Mini-Course

Marketing Like We're Human - Sarah's book

The Humane Marketing Circle

Authentic & Fair Pricing Mini-Course

Podcast Show Notes

We use Descript to edit our episodes and it's fantastic!

Email Sarah at [email protected]

Thanks for listening!

 

After you listen, check out Humane Business Manifesto, an invitation to belong to a movement of people who do business the humane and gentle way and disrupt the current marketing paradigm. You can download it for free at this page. There's no opt-in. Just an instant download.

Are you enjoying the podcast?  The Humane Marketing show is listener-supported—I'd love for you to become an active supporter of the show and join the Humane Marketing Circle. You will be invited to a private monthly Q&A call with me and fellow Humane Marketers -  a safe zone to hang out with like-minded conscious entrepreneurs and help each other build our business and grow our impact.  — I'd love for you to join us! Learn more at humane.marketing/circle

Don't forget to subscribe to the show on iTunes or on Android to get notified for all my future shows and why not sign up for my weekly(ish) "Sarah Suggests Saturdays", a round-up of best practices, tools I use, books I read, podcasts, and other resources.

Raise your hand and join the Humane Business Revolution.

Warmly,

Sarah

Imperfect Transcript of the show

We use and love Descript to edit our podcast and provide this free transcript of the episode. And yes, that's an affiliate link.

Sarah: [00:00:00] Hi Alice. So good to see you and hear 

Alice: you. Thank you so much for having me 

Sarah: here. Yeah, thank you. I think this is probably the only time that I get to chat in Swiss German on the podcast, even though it's before we hit record, but it's definitely the only time ever I get to speak in my mother tongue and dialect, and it's just.

I don't know. It just feels like home, so it's good to be home. 

Alice: I know. Likewise, I feel exactly the same way. I actually spoke to some friends of mine back home, like via voice message just this morning to get into the groove of things. Cuz I have to remember my native tongue. , I love this. 

Sarah: Hmm. Yeah. But obviously you are not in Switzerland.

, you are in, , Canada and not. Eastern side, but the western side. So even more complex to get to talk to each other. But I'm so delighted that you're here and it's kind of a funny story actually, the [00:01:00] way, , we met, or I guess like all of these stories online is just kind of sometimes serendipity, but, , you're the, the founder of the ethical, , move This movement has been mentioned to me a few times in the past and, and I had to look at the website and I was like, oh, that's great. Know what they're doing. , I told you that I think in a conversation it looked very, , so branded and then obviously you were a brand specialist.

So it all makes sense, but I, I thought, okay, there's like a company behind it, or like a huge team, so I didn't. Investigate further until it was mentioned to me again and have you, , taken. , it's not a pledge. What, what do you call it? The No, it is a pledge. Yeah. A pledge. Yeah. A pledge. Yeah. So have you taken the Ethical Pledge?

And I'm like, oh yeah, that thing I gotta, you know, look at it again. And so I did. And then I was really curious, , let me look who's behind it, and then mm-hmm. , you know, here we are, find out [00:02:00] that you are, , fellow Swiss and Swiss German, which is just, yeah. Really funny. So I'm delighted to be here.

Definitely very, very like-minded because you're, yeah. You're building something very similar to me and I'm just, , super excited about it. Yeah. 

Alice: So likewise. I know. It's so cool to have, it's interesting to me as well, because we clearly have very similar mindsets around it, and it's unsurprising to me because of the sort of collaborative way that Switzerland works in a way, .

In politics in the way that we interact. I feel like because we're such a densely populated place as well, I feel like we are immediately enmeshed with other people whether we want to or not. , and so I feel like there's a lot more understanding and personal responsibility around the collective.

That's my, my experience anyway. So it, , it doesn't surprise me that we would have . This feeling of, hey, this could be done differently if we sort of [00:03:00] take the collective into account. , so yeah, it's cool to actually finally have this conversation with someone who gets it, . Yeah, 

Sarah: yeah. No, it's, it's amazing.

I never thought of it that way, but it's true. I come from this hippie upbringing and I always just thought, well, That's why I'm community driven. , but you're right. If you think about the political, organization of Switzerland and, and the fact that we are sandwiched in between all these other countries and that we speak, you know, at least three languages, uh, fluently, , it does make it, yeah, kind of more like, you know, oriented towards the other.

Alice: yeah, in the good and the bad . 

Sarah: Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Amazing. Right. Well, let's dive into the, the topic and, what I wanna unpack is your ethical move. And in that kind of starts with maybe defining ethics, because when you think about ethics, there. So many aspects to [00:04:00] ethics, and I'm just curious to know how you define it and what you understand by it.

Because the ethical move is, is yes, it's about ethics and business, but then it's also very specifically about marketing, from what I've seen on your website and from what I know now from the community. So tell us how you define ethics, right? For the 

Alice: big, big guns. Hey, . Yeah, I, , I have to say I'm not an ethics major in any way.

I haven't studied it. I have studied marketing and sales in all their various forms. So for me, really it comes down to what I know to be called applied ethics, the way that we actually use, , the concepts. I would say a collective common good, , which comes from my understanding, there's, there's a few different viewpoints on this and I feel like people learn it differently in different countries and all the ways that they're [00:05:00] educated.

, But to me there was always a difference between morals and ethics in the sense that morals is very subjective and personal. And then ethics is, sort of collective and society driven and how do we interact, , with each other. So, , I find it's almost like a collective decision to. For the common good, if that makes sense.

Mm-hmm. . So all the various ways in which it shows up from the very personal to professional to all the different, , areas that it touches, which is basically everything that humans touch . , we have different ways that we apply ethics, , and I think that we sort of as a growing society, Humans, you know, taking over the planet.

we need to sort of take more of that into account, I think. And so the ethical move really was sort of a nod to, hey, what is a collective situation right now where we are all humans and our customers are our products, , our businesses are not just ways to make money, but also [00:06:00] very much have to do relationship and how we are human together and.

Sort of bringing business and all of that into the field of, hey, this is a place where we can also do good in the world. And it's not just, you know, politics or government that takes care of welfare, , you know, we are also responsible for that as citizens in, in our own selves, like as humans, but then also as citizens, as businesses, right?

Because legally we are required. Technically we are a citizen, , in our countries as businesses. And so really looking at what the responsibility of that means. So that's a bit of a broad, probably context, but Yeah, 

Sarah: no, that, that makes total sense because I feel like yeah, ethics really has these different layers and it's like global layers.

Like, you know, you can even talk about environmental ethics. So you know, very in the psychic obviously, , and then. I guess down level would be governments and [00:07:00] countries, and then you're taking another level down. Then it's humans and, and you can talk about yeah. Humans in a workplace. , you can talk about the relationships between humans, so like gender ethics, I guess.

 And then what, what you are talking, , specifically is. Yeah. It's almost like consumer and cus Yeah. Consumer ethics maybe as individuals, but also as entrepreneurs and, and business owners, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Again, it's, it's just so similar to what we're trying to do here with Humane Marketing.

It's like, yeah, let's, let's use marketing and let's use business as a liver for good. That's really what we're doing. Right? And then, And, and you come from this background in, in marketing and and sales as well. So I'm just curious to hear whether you think marketing has always been [00:08:00] unethical, like , has that always been the way it is or has it gotten worse over the last 10, 20 years?

Alice: A good question. I mean, marketing in itself is not unethical. I don't actually wanna eradicate marketing. That to me is not. The goal here, , even thinking, you know, our common experience of the Saturday market with everyone, you know, yelling about their wares and, , with the beautiful smell of fresh tomatoes.

And I just feel like market itself is not unethical. , just like the word influence is not unethical or ethical. They're neutral terms. I think what has happened is, Over the years, and I wanna go back even further, like in the early 19 hundreds, , people discovering psychology as a ways to do marketing.

 So using psychological tricks to like, for the first time, discovering psychology being a thing, you know, obviously. And then, and then really sinking [00:09:00] into what can be done with it. How can we use it in order to sell our things? . , and then from there, just kind of like the extrapolation of that through suddenly having a mass market and then suddenly having mass media available.

, I think the, the possibilities to use it just grew and grew and grew. And I don't think we had, I mean, some people have a bit of an achy feeling about it, and I'm sure people in the fifties and sixties and seventies had moments of like, this might not be great. Or, or sort of like, There is a bit of a stench to it when you just sell for the purpose of selling or when you, you know, you work for a company that you know is harmful to people on the planet, , to sell their stuff.

, and even as marketers today, right? Most of our, probably most of our community members, most of the people in our, in our sphere experience, Marketing is something almost dirty, right? Something that we don't wanna do. However, in itself, it has just been tainted with [00:10:00] this idea that humans are a commodity, humans are a product, , and using sort of these tricks to bypass our humanity in order to sell things.

Selling more and more and more of things we don't naturally need, creating false needs, creating this, this unimaginably harmful feeling of not being enough. We're not having enough, which is just, it permeates everything, all of us, right, on either side of the spectrum, whether we are selling or being sold to.

We all have this experience of I must get as much as I can for as little as possible. whether it be effort or money or, you know, and so I think that the experience of marketing has become a lot more complex with the amount of, just sheer amount of people and ways to reach them.

And then it also has. Become more insidious because we know more about the brain and we [00:11:00] learn more about it and more studies are being done and how we can, you know, how we can use scent and how we can use music and how we can use different ways of influencing people, in, in a direction that is actually not based in their own conscious choice.

So in that way, it has become more unethical, but not because in itself it's unethical, but because we have lost sort of. Yeah, I do think we have lost touch in a lot of ways to, you know, what is actually good for us, you know, which in the heart of hearts, we're usually just like peace of mind, quiet, family life, you know, if we're getting right down to our true desires, it's usually not more stuff.

That's where I see it landing on a 

Sarah: spectrum. Yeah. And I love this. When you said, we've, we've kind of started to bypass our humanity. That's exactly what's happening. , and I think. Maybe what, what I would add is also the use of technology has increased. Yeah. Uh, over the last, you know, maybe 10, 20 years.

And so [00:12:00] even more, we've lost touch with the human side of things because we realized all the things that we can use. All the technology that we can use to automate everything and more and more and more, right? Yeah. And so, yeah, it's totally that loss of humanity that made things unethical and that once you're in that cycle of greed for always more is really, really hard to break away from it, right?

Yeah. And I think that's why we're finding ourselves in this difficult transition. Your gut knows it's wrong to do certain things, but your brain is telling you, well, yeah, but it makes money. So, why would I stop it? Yeah. So yeah, I think that's the question. So how do we, you know, change those bad practices into ethical practices and, and still make money?

I guess, yeah, we [00:13:00] still do wanna make money, but, but maybe that's maybe the next conversation. Well do. We also need to change our approach to money, but first let's discuss how do we, how do we change those practices and, and still sell? 

Alice: I think there's a misconception that ethical tactics, Ethical ways of using those tactics or flipping them on their heads, , somehow results in no sales, or less sales.

And yes, on a large, large scale, of course, if you, you know, stop using term prices or if you stop visually merchandising, if you stop, you know, yes, those were. Specifically the ways that, you know, stores are laid out and the way that we have these little trinkets by the cash register, like all of those things were specifically designed based on our, our brains, how they work.

So if you do take those away, [00:14:00] then yes, you would sell less. , But if we look at the very sort of, simple service, service based business, , with maybe a couple of services to sell, it's not gonna have that impact. It's probably more built on relationship than anything else. So using psychological tactics, in my opinion, undermines that relationship and undermines that trust.

So in, in my world, , the way I see it anyways, is,

If we start with trust and we start with honesty, and we start with relationship and truth, we actually gain a lot more in the long run. We might not sell in the immediate because it's not a high pressure situation, but people will always need to have their problems solved, and there will always be people with those answers.

So I feel. If we have a good product, whether it be a service or an actual product or anything else that you, that you sell, and you have like a really, a really clear message around it and you have, and you're aligned [00:15:00] with, you know, what you're actually trying to do in the world, then the people that need that will find you.

It's a pretty simple equation in my opinion. It's just, here's the thing, this is how much it costs. What do you. and the other person could say yes or no. And to me, especially in today's world where we talk about consent, , so much, and it's so important, obviously , for all the obvious reasons, why is consent not considered important in marketing and sales?

Because that's all we're doing is like, Hey, here's the facts, here's everything laid out for you. And now do you agree or do you not? And maybe you change your mind like. We're allowed to change our minds midway through a sales process. We're allowed to, you know, yes, it sucks on the other end, of course, we've all been there.

You know, we're this close to signing a contract, and then the person is like, nevermind, I can't do it. But in the end, We actually make a sale that is beneficial to both sides, and that will result in referrals, that will result in word of mouth, that will result in better [00:16:00] relationships down the road.

Recurring sales, which happens a lot that we just sort of forget in the frenzy of this, like corporate imitation. You know, we, we think that those rules are the only ways we can. , but it's, they're not, it's just how we've grown up. That's all. It's like, well, this is my parents' religion doesn't mean I have to adopt it.

, but we were grown, you know, we were grown into that and we were educated in that. So it makes complete sense that we would adopt them, and it makes complete sense that we would adopt the mindset that we can't sell outside of them, but we can. It's just we're not doing it. That's. . it's pretty simple in my opinion.

But then again, everybody has a business they need to take care of and I think that really getting down to what is your product and how do you sell it in a sense of like, what is actually the message and what are you, what is it within and who are you serving? That's more important than how can I best bypass their conscious choice, 

Sarah: yeah. , so much in there, what I always say is like there's this huge gap now between.[00:17:00] The consciousness of the current consumer and, , how we still market to them, , like we did back in the sixties. So marketing hasn't changed, and yes, consciousness of the consumer has changed, like over the five, last five years.

A huge evolutionary jump, right? And yet we're still treating customers as if they're completely stupid and like they didn't know that we're actually tricking them. And, and so I, I feel like maybe the old way of marketing this pushy way will work for another maybe two, maybe five, who knows, maybe even 10 years.

Things are evolving even faster now. And so eventually customers will not buy with those, , manipulative things anymore. And so what are the companies are gonna do then? Well, if they don't change their strategies now and go with trust and relationships, well they're gonna, [00:18:00] they're gonna go, bankrupt in a few years.

And I think it's really, really important to realize that now, even though it's hard because they have to step out of that hustle. Mode. It really is a lot of unlearning and saying, okay, I'm gonna step out of the hustle mode because obviously these pushy methods, they do create sales and instant sales.

For now still. Right, but they don't create a sustainable business, that's the thing. 

Alice: Yes. And I do wanna add to that. There are also more insidious ways being built into how to sell. Like we do have to remember that there's new technology for those who want to sell more, behind the scenes as well, like, Ways in which that technology really comes into play.

Like learning to read people's emotional cues on Zoom. Like that's one thing that is starting to become a problem where people are using that in high pressure sales situations, you know? Wow. So we do have to remember that, that [00:19:00] that technology is not resting. , the way to sell more at profit is, is it late stage?

Do they say, call it late stage capitalism or something? It, it is holding on for dear. Life. Like we have to remember that. So it's 

Sarah: this collision between the two worlds, right? We see that in politics too. It's like the old power wants to grab on as much as they can and the new world is slowly developing.

But you're totally right. It's not gonna change just from one day to the 

Alice: next. No. So we do have to, I do think we have a responsibility and this is why we exist. You and I, , and our teams. We have the responsibility to point to those things and say, Hey, zoom is doing this thing. Hey, there's dark patterns.

Hey, there's places in which we don't even know we're being tricked. Yes, we can identify when it's $99. We're like, yeah, that's a char price. We get it. Like people are starting to understand that that's a thing we've always known. It's not 99, you know? But the insidious behind it, there's still places that that can [00:20:00] go.

And so reminding ourselves and, and sort of like, it'll be a daily practice of doing it differently because it will keep. Doing the thing, and we will keep having to, you know, stay grounded and not participate, which is so hard, even for me. I mean, I feel like you and I have studied this stuff for so long, right?

It's just I can't handle it. I need to like step away from the computer, like put that away for 24 hours. It's a thing that I really need to practice. So, yeah. 

Sarah: but that, but that's exactly why we're both creating communities, right? Because you exactly, there's, there's also not enough examples.

Of this more humane or ethical ways. And, and so if you don't see the example, well you're gonna follow what the big gurus tell you to do, which is Yeah, which is just the same old thing. So once people see more of the ethical marketing, the humane marketing, that's when they have a new. Kind of not, we [00:21:00] don't wanna be gurus, that's for sure.

But they have a new example to follow and say, oh, it does work that way as well. , and what I talk a lot about in marketing, like we're human, is like, well, you have to figure out what works for you. Not just, you know, find a new guru and follow them. It's like, no, you have to bring all of you to, to your marketing.

And so yeah, these communities are so important. 

Alice: And I think that's exactly the point. And that's what I feel like my, my point to all of my work in all the ways , not even just the ethical move, but also in my branding work is how can I get you to listen in as opposed to out? What is the way that I can establish a really strong voice from within that you don't need to continuously participate in what is being told, , because the narrative isn't healthy for anyone.

And. I mean the current narrative. And so taking up that space and changing that is also part of it, right? Going back inside and going back to listen to what we really want and what our desires are and what, you know, what's good for our loved ones. [00:22:00] Yeah. Remembering that day in and day out because we are so inundated with those messages of, like what our bodies are supposed to look like and what our minds are supposed to look like and how productive we supposed to be, and all the things in which we We're not enough. We're not perfect. We're not, we're not perfect. We're never gonna make it. And no matter how many times we learn about, the, the perfect body doesn't exist, we know that, calories are a sham. We know that like all these things still, somehow I look at the calorie tag in a grocery store, like, what is it?

I know it's bogus. Anyway, it just, we just have to keep grounding ourselves within ourselves and within our communities. 

Sarah: Why we do what we do. Yeah, exactly. And, and, and before I hinted at the definition of success and that maybe we also need to work on that, right? And, and so that's part of it, that is that work on the being.

And so how do you do that with maybe with. Your clients in, in branding because I really feel like, whether we're [00:23:00] branding now or we're marketing or we're selling, it all comes back to first figuring out who we are and it's, it's just so sometimes really difficult for people to understand that.

We're now marketing, but we're doing personal development first before we ever go out into, you know, creating a brand or, or, or market or anything like that. So how do you work with 

Alice: clients on that? That's exactly it. I think the, that's the part of branding that I enjoy the most anyways. the other side of it, you know, how do you sell better?

How do you market better? How do you message better? That to me is almost, has gotten a bit tired, I feel. The identity piece is such a strong core anchoring that kind of makes everything else make. Continuously and reliably and sustainably. , because otherwise you just put blown around in the winds of change, right?

Like it's constantly moving and having a really strong, rooted, grounded knowledge of yourself [00:24:00] and what you care about. , that is huge. And I also think, I mean, definition of success , is probably one of the bigger ones and it always, it gets talked about so much and I feel like we. This idea that it's, well, it's not, it's not this, it has to be this, you know, it's not like we know it's not money, so what else is it?

Or we know it's not, you know, and still we obviously have desires that live within us and there's something that I've recently learned, , from many sources around desire, which is to like trust them and that they are inherent and they don't change. They are who we. . Like, we can't, we can't, there's no choice in our desires.

And so what I've been practicing just based on this, is just tracking my desires, like writing them down every day. Mm-hmm. , what are my desires? Love, affection, laughter, joy. Mm-hmm. , freedom, peace. Like whatever it is that in the day, on the day and the moment that I'm writing it is [00:25:00] like my deepest desire in that moment.

Writing it down and trusting that that is where I wanna go. And I feel like since then, The way that I look at what I actually want has completely changed, and I do think there's a difference between what I want and what I desire in the sense that desire is sort of innate and what I want can be very shifty and weird sometimes, you know, it could one 

Sarah: day.

Could it be that what you want is also maybe more material? , little bit. 

Alice: It could be. It's more in the moment. I think my desire feels more like something that is like in the core from who I am, you know? Mm-hmm. . Yeah. And I noticed this the most when I was recently, like, I checked myself because I.

Counting my hours for the week, you know, I, I track my hours for everything that I do, just so I know where I'm placing my time. And then at the end of the week, because of my sort of neurodiversity, because I have ADHD and complex ptsd, and there's lots of like ways in which I was always told that I was either lazy or not doing enough or whatever, you know, like the millions of ways that we are [00:26:00] being told were not enough again.

I noticed myself wanting to get to a really high number at the end of the week of like collective hours worked, and I'm like, oh, only 30. Like I didn't do, , I should be. And then I checked myself for like the first time and went, why am I trying to get more hours out of me? Like, what is this I wrote down this morning.

My desire is freedom to like lay in the sun in the middle of the day. Like that doesn't actually work with working more. So I had a moment, like a real sort of like insight where I thought, what if I count the hours of pleasure and leisure instead , and count that as a win, you know, instead of how many hours I work.

And that really just, I feel like. Individually, obviously this works for me, but individually, everybody, like I wish everybody had the chance to just kind of go reverse that and kind of go, well, what's possible for me? And of course within that comes privilege, right? I am privileged enough that I can work 30 [00:27:00] hours and make a living.

, other people cannot. And that is also part of this definition of success, has to be. What do I need to do to make a living that doesn't necessarily have to be the same thing that makes me happy? It would be nice, but sometimes we have to, just go, okay, the world is what it is and I need to make money for it.

, but disentangling that from what we desire and how we wanna live our days, I guess. Yeah. Yeah, 

Sarah: that was a bit of a tangent. . Yeah, no, it's, it's really good because cuz we are placing this, this conversation on the, the p of people and, and, you know, I should have called it humans, but, but that didn't start with a p so, so it is all about the being human and being human as an entrepreneur and having, yeah, having so much to unlearn really.

, that's what comes to mind. It's like, All these things that we think we should be doing, especially in marketing. Another thing that's kind of timely, because we're at the end of the year, is a goal setting, right? [00:28:00] So, , yeah, I'm thinking about goal setting, like we're human , and I know, uh, Tara McMullen just came up with a book about goal setting in, in a radically different way, and excited to read, read her book.

That is part of that pressure. It's like, oh, I only work 30 hours per week. I should be doing much more. I should have all these goals of how much income I'm gonna make next year and all of that. And yeah, we, we. Need to shift everything because, otherwise absolutely. We feel like we, , if we have these huge goals, numbers that we want to achieve, then obviously we're gonna fall into the trap of I have to market and I have to hustle and I have to sell so much.

It just, yeah, it goes hand in hand. Absolutely. 

Alice: One of the things I learned from Tara is having a commitment first approach to the goals like, What are my commitments for the year? And then matching those goals to them. And then one thing I learned from Marie Collin, [00:29:00] who's our, , resident notion expert, , The idea of setting identity goals as well as smart goals, you know?

Mm-hmm. , like having goals around who I'm becoming or who I want to become, like, for her, it's like being a great facilitator of her course or things like that. And for me, it might be being a really good steward of this land and learning more about, you know, our aboriginal roots and so, what are identity goals that actually match, you know, who we are as humans.

And of course we have smart goals because we also have businesses with numbers. Like we also have goals that need to have a specific outcome, but maybe they can live parallel to these, sort of like more personal. Real goals that we have, and maybe they don't, they're not called goals anymore then, but I don't know.

I just feel like that might be a worthy exercise. Yeah, 

Sarah: yeah, yeah. It's kind of like how I talk about the new business paradigm, and you call it the New Economy, is is that goal setting? That's in Terror . Oh, is [00:30:00] it? Okay. Yeah. 

Alice: Yeah. Tara actually called it the New Economy because she said, We are gonna inform government.

We're the largest growing sector of small businesses online. , and that is the place we're going to. So the new economy is not just this like corporate, you know, these Bama, but all of us little ones. , and that is partially why I started following her and became part of her community, , because of.

Sort of outset of saying, Hey, we are that impactful. And it probably started a lot of the conversation around the ethical move as well. Because if we are the new economy, if we are basically what's gonna like the example of what's next, then we better, we better take the responsibility, right. You know, that we have with that and start acting as if, you know.

Yeah, 

Sarah: yeah, yeah, yeah. That's so good. I love it. Anything else? We talked about goal setting, we talked about ethical marketing. What else fits in [00:31:00] that new economy, 

Alice: for you? I think the biggest part that we keep forgetting, well, we might not forget, but we see it a bit of, , a bit of, as a checklist is, , our collective liberation.

I. Understanding that, well, other people might call it social justice or whatever you wanna call it. , we call it collective liberation because, well, first of all, liberation is the biggest word we can find for everyone to be free because as you know, many people have said the world is not free until we're all, all free, or the world doesn't work unless it works for everyone.

, so the understanding that we are in a big collective and that we are all working together on this and that we. Supposed to be alone. This is just a very western, northern, you know, capitalist mentality that we are on our own and we need to individually muddle our way through this. Rugged individualism has not helped us, and it is not how the global South usually operates either.

So [00:32:00] learning from people who are living collectively or being in collection, in collect. Really will inform how we can go forward. So that is also something that we practice in the ethical move. Like what is this consensus collective, community driven, way we can be together and we can learn together so that no one person is gonna tell us.

You know, I'm not the expert in ethical marketing. That's why I built a community. I'm not, that's why I have, you know, a team of nine people. I can't do this on my own, nor should I, because the collective is what's gonna get us to the next stage. , and like taking our time, slowing down, not just, you know, on the technology side of things.

Yes, sure. Unplug your phone at eight to 8:00 PM whatever, like, do your thing, but also understanding. It takes time to process things and it, and processing is important and nuance is important. And understanding each moment that we are aware of a change or aware of [00:33:00] something that is shifting within us to give ourselves grace and the people around us, grace, to go through those shifts and to have process take place so that.

We can come out the other end with like, okay, so I don't have all the answers yet, but I do have a sort of a sense of where I wanna go next and I'm gonna try some things and then see if the people around me agree. And then we keep going in this like very collective consensus based way and that hopefully will help the most marginalized.

In the way that it's supposed to help, not by us white saviors going down and building schools in Africa. Oh my gosh. I'm saying that in quotation marks cuz I just, philanthropy and I don't have a good time together, , . But this idea of, you know, what is a way that we can all be because we're all benefit, if the most marginalized among us benefits, then it works for all of us.

So yeah, that's basically the, the biggest underlying piece I think that we don't focus on enough in my. Yeah, 

Sarah: yeah. Yeah. There's, there's so many [00:34:00] challenges that we need to focus on, and, and you're, you're right. I mean, we, we do have a responsibility to take and, you know, if we haven't taken it yet, it's about time.

, yeah, 

Alice: absolutely. I think there's something in addition to that full circle to ethical marketing, which that's the part that I think that ethical market. Sometimes people misinterpret it as, you know, how can I sell better? How can I make it so that I don't feel icky about myself? But I really wanna bring it out and zoom it out and say, it is about the bottom of the supply chain.

It's about how we treat every single person within an organization or corporation. So this is about changing the way that the global crises are currently happening around environment and you know, displacement and war, and all the things that we can possibly look. All of those are impacted by how we sell and how we market.

So instead of looking at it just from our individual lens of how can I still sell things, which is also [00:35:00] important and just as valid and looking at, you know, the bigger picture that has, if we all, you know, spun in that direction, then maybe there's a way we can change things. 

Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's really about taking responsibility but also giving back responsibility to the consumers because it really plays together.

Right. And that's what I feel like we've taken away, , a lot. Yeah. I agree. Thank you so much. We could go on and on and on for hours. I, I'm sure. But, , yeah, please tell listeners where they can start to, you know, take ownership, be responsible, take the pledge, tell us everything, 

Alice: , so we can be found on the ethical move.org.

, we'd love your pledge. , it's basically a three part pledge that. Sets the sets the intention. It's an intention pledge. There are resources that we're sharing around how to change [00:36:00] tactics. And then of course there's a community which you're also part of, , which is where we actually work on this and we exchange things and we have workshops and, , events happening, , and where we all sort of get to have this collective discourse.

, and. I think the best place to start is just sort of taking stop, you know, like looking at what's in front of you, taking, making a touchpoint review maybe, or looking at what the first step could be and, and following what immediately comes to mind to take on. If it's like, oh, I wanna look at my pricing strategy and really understand what my pricing means and how I can maybe make it more, beneficial or a little sort of just better for the people who buy from me, maybe in other countries, or, just even that is a huge topic and understanding that it takes time. Like if that topic takes you half a year, then good for you. Mine's I'm still going , it's taken me a year so far, so really understanding that this is a lifelong journey and it's probably gonna go on beyond our lifetime.

So just keep, just 

Sarah: [00:37:00] keep pushing. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. , I'm so glad you didn't give us a, you know, three steps, . Nope. Here's the easy three steps. Like, yeah, I wish, I wish it was that easy, 

Alice: right? No, it's not. And it's, and it's totally fine that it's not because it, we're all in the same boat together, or maybe not in the exact same boat, but we're on the same ocean like it just is.

A collective effort and the idea that we need to muddle through on our own, as you know, with your community is just, yeah, it's over. It's done. We're, we're done with that. Now I feel like we're, I think we're done with that. Yeah. We can stop being individuals on our own. Scared and lonely . 

Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. Well, thank you so much for, for this collaboration because it is a collaboration, right?

It's a partnership and a, and I really appreciate having you on. So thank you so much. Thank. 

Alice: Thank you so much. This was a great conversation. Thanks.

Today I'm talking to Hillary Rea about finding your core story and your superpowers and how you can use them in your storytelling.

Hillary Rea is the founder of Tell Me A Story, a communication consulting and coaching business that trains ambitious leaders who want to take up more space, communicate with impact, and become more confident as they become more visible. Through her company's signature Crafting Your Narrative: Solo Retreat, as well as ongoing coaching partnerships, Hillary helps her clients to find their voice and then empowers them to use it — by sharing their unique stories with honesty and passion.

She is an award-winning storyteller, and has been telling her own stories on stage for 13 years - as a performer, as the host of a the long-running Tell Me A Story Live Show, and now as a keynote speaker.

When Hillary first reached out to me to ask if she could come and speak about Storytelling on my podcast I thought "another Storytelling expert". But then I read further and started to really appreciate her radically different approach to storytelling. And you know how much we like 'radically different' on the Humane Marketing Show.

In this episode, you'll learn about finding your core story and your superpowers as well as...

 

• How storytelling helps you identify your superpowers
• Hillary's reframe of the 'Origin Story'
• Her take on the Hero's Journey storytelling structure
• The concept of 'taking up space' with your story
• And so much more

Hillary's Resources

 

Hillary's Website

The Speak Up Session - A free monthly session with Hillary

The Speak Up: Be a Dentist

Other resources mentioned:

NY Times essay by Brit Marling

Connect with Laura on:

LinkedIn

 

Sarah's Resources

Watch this episode on Youtube

(FREE) Sarah's One Page Marketing Plan

(FREE) Sarah Suggests Newsletter

(FREE) The Humane Business Manifesto

(FREE) Gentle Confidence Mini-Course

Marketing Like We're Human - Sarah's book

The Humane Marketing Circle

Authentic & Fair Pricing Mini-Course

Podcast Show Notes

We use Descript to edit our episodes and it's fantastic!

Email Sarah at [email protected]

Thanks for listening!

 

After you listen, check out Humane Business Manifesto, an invitation to belong to a movement of people who do business the humane and gentle way and disrupt the current marketing paradigm. You can download it for free at this page. There's no opt-in. Just an instant download.

Are you enjoying the podcast?  The Humane Marketing show is listener-supported—I'd love for you to become an active supporter of the show and join the Humane Marketing Circle. You will be invited to a private monthly Q&A call with me and fellow Humane Marketers -  a safe zone to hang out with like-minded conscious entrepreneurs and help each other build our business and grow our impact.  — I'd love for you to join us! Learn more at humane.marketing/circle

Don't forget to subscribe to the show on iTunes or on Android to get notified for all my future shows and why not sign up for my weekly(ish) "Sarah Suggests Saturdays", a round-up of best practices, tools I use, books I read, podcasts, and other resources.

Raise your hand and join the Humane Business Revolution.

Warmly,

Sarah

Imperfect Transcript of the show

We use and love Descript to edit our podcast and provide this free transcript of the episode. And yes, that's an affiliate link.

Sarah: [00:00:00] Hey, Hillary, so nice to have you here. Thanks for coming. 

Hillary: Yeah. Sarah, thanks for having me. I've been thinking about our conversation all week. 

Sarah: Wonderful. Yeah, well, it's been more than a week. I was just saying offline that we connected like many months before, and so I'm just excited to have this different, , approach that you bring to storytelling.

But as you know, we're kind of putting this under the p of personal power and I think, it really is a good fit because. Do bring that different approach, about storytelling coming from this personal power. And actually that's where I'd like to start. You know, you talk about superpowers and, we talk about superpowers in marketing as well, like finding out your humane marketing superpowers that you can bring more of you to your marketing.

And, and so tell us why that matters in your, , storytelling approach. 

Hillary: Yeah, [00:01:00] it's funny. When I think of the word marketing or maybe flashback a handful of years ago, in my perception of marketing, I was always told, oh, it's about the the other person. It's about who you're marketing to. And while I still agree with that, I think.

When I was able to make this shift of, okay, yes, it's about that other person who I'm communicating with, but I also need it to be about me as the communicator. And that's why storytelling and sharing a story from my own life that connects to who I am, my superpowers, what I put out into the world, is so important.

And I think this idea of personal power with storytelling. We, each of us as the storyteller has control over our narrative, so I can choose what experiences from my life I share with other. People, [00:02:00] and sure other people might have stories about me, stories about my company, my brand, and there might be stories I tell myself that maybe aren't the nicest or the, the truest mm-hmm.

But if I really zero in and focus on the story, I choose to express outwardly to other people, to me that's where the power is. And that personal power and, and light and how that connects with super power. Is I can find the experiences in my life that support what I consider my superpowers, or when I'm working with clients on their storytelling, we do a full exercise that helps them identify what their superpowers are, and then we continue the brainstorming of, oh, what are the experiences that you've had in your life?

Looking at all aspects of your life that really support these superpowers, and how can you craft that into the narrative that makes the most. For your audience. 

Sarah: Mm-hmm. . Yeah. I [00:03:00] love that. It's a very similar approach to what we do in, in the marketing, like we're human program because we need to first go deep and figure out, you know, who are we and what's our story?

And we're gonna talk a little bit later about this origin story or you have another name for it. Mm-hmm. . So who am. But then also, yeah. How does that connect with my ideal client? And I'm so glad you brought this up. You know, it's like this idea of marketing being only about the client. And, , as I just said offline, I'm, currently recording the marketing like we're human book and I was taught that the client is always king, right?

That's kind of like one of these marketing things. It's like the client is king and, kind of thinking, oh, everything I do has to serve this client then makes you think, oh, people don't even care about. I am and what my stories are. I have to focus everything on this. Yeah. Outside source. And [00:04:00] I'm so glad you brought this up, that this is really like a reframe.

It's like, yeah, the client is important and yes, we wanna understand them, but in order to actually resonate, we need to first also, , find out who we are and, and what our stories are. And that means finding out these superpowers. 

Hillary: Yeah, and I think what I learned early on in, in sharing stories for my own life, I started as a performer telling my own stories on stage in front of audiences.

At the time, I think I went into it thinking like, oh, I'm funny. I can entertain people. But what I soon learned and felt is that a story isn't one sided, and there's that automatic reciprocity and exchange with a listening audience. They're hearing my story, they're taking it in. If there's opportunity for conversation after, people tend to share stories of of their own lives that connect or resonate somehow.

And when I was [00:05:00] able to. That that storytelling was a conversation. I trusted myself more that I could, again, like channel what's inside of me, channel, the experiences I've had and who I am to then have that conversation with an audience. 

Sarah: Right? So it's like you're not just telling the story to avoid you actually.

There to be feedback. Right. That's the communication and connection part. It's like we're not just doing this as performers. Even I would say even performers, they want feedback from the audience, otherwise they wouldn't do it. So, yeah. Yeah. It's, it's so interesting. So that kind of leads as then, , I already hinted at.

This origin story, right, that we're, again, it's another thing that we, I guess we hear a lot from storytelling experts. We have to have this origin story, , and then we need to tell it in a, in a compelling way. You have [00:06:00] there as well kind of a suggesting a reframe. So tell us about how you call it and, and what's different, Sure.

With the 

Hillary: origin story. Yeah. Early on in starting my. I used the phrase origin story for everything. And I would say I work with a lot of business owners, entrepreneurs, and also leaders of larger companies. And for everyone, I would say what you just said of you have to have an origin story, and there would be this immediate wave of overwhelm of, oh, my good, my goodness.

I have to start from the very beginning of my. And like take everyone through my education, my expertise, my awards, my accolades, and then what if I've changed my business or changed my career or, or another thing in my life has changed. How do I explain that? And there was always this pressure of, it has to be this all-encompassing story.

I have to make sense of myself, make sure people understand [00:07:00] who I am. And there would also be times where I would be listening to other. And hosts would say, oh, so what's your origin story? And again, there would be like this long winded response from people where you know that they're trying to get to the end, but the, the preparation or the thought put into it maybe wasn't considered as much.

And so when I started teaching storytelling, I defined origin story to be less overwhelming. And it's a story that answers two questions. How did you get to where you are now and how did you get your superpowers? And so again, going back to superpowers, I do a really intensive exercise with my clients around identifying what those are.

And then when we get to that question, the how did you get to where you are now, which is pretty standard for an origin story. I splice the question in half and I reverse it. So it's Where are you now? And how did you [00:08:00] get there? And by focusing on the where are you now, it allows people to tap into the presence of where am I now in my business?

Where am I now in my life? Where am I now in terms of how I wanna communicate with other people? And once you have that, it's really finding those moments in your life that illuminate that, that support that. So it doesn't necessarily mean starting at the I was Born moment, or. The birth of the business moment, it could really be a more recent moment in time that supports who you are, what you do, what you stand for.

And so that is a, to me and to everyone, I work with a really liberating way to think about it. Again, it it's a. A way to tap into that personal power and strength of like, this is who I am now and this might change, and when it changes, I can adjust my story as, as such. Mm-hmm. . and then really in the last handful of [00:09:00] months, I've decided not to use the word origin story at all because I don't want that overwhelm and that pressure, , to envelop people and hold them back from sharing their story or finding their story.

And I, I saw that it still was overwhelming people. And so I've landed on this new term called Core Story. That still has that same definition, but it helps people stay again in that inner strength and personal power as they're communicating outward. 

Sarah: Mm. Yeah. So much good stuff in there. And, and I think I, I will have to kind of adapt the way I talk about the I don't think I ever mentioned the word origin story, but we talk about, , in the marketing, like we're human program creating our story.

So I don't really use origin or core, but it's true that there's some. Overwhelm when people are first thinking about, you know, what is my story? And so I, I totally agree with [00:10:00] you , on that overwhelm part. What I'm wondering, and I'd like to hear from you is like, because when they actually do write the story and sometimes they have to go like really deep and eventually when it does come out, it may be too long.

But they feel like such a big sense of relief that they have actually put it on paper and they see it and it's almost like it's healing to work through that story. ] what's your take on that healing part of putting it on paper? 

Hillary: Yeah. So when I work with my clients, we work on this core story for two months, right?

It starts out rather large in terms of spanning time or diving deep into like a, a period of life that supports , the person where they are now and what they wanna talk about. And often in that there's a letting [00:11:00] go of old narratives. So whether it's the story they. To telling about themselves and their business or like in Yeah, an inner voice that's been telling a story for a long time.

Sometimes that just comes out in the crafting process. Right. And once it's out there, I often hear, oh, that's definitely not the story. I'm really glad that I said it now and I don't need to say it again. Right. And so that tends to happen, and as I continue to work with people and fine tune. The story, I do something called Zoom in.

And so as someone sharing their story, I will pause them in our work together and say, zoom in on what it felt like in the garden when you had that idea. Mm-hmm. . And what happens is each person. Goes into specifics, goes into details like visual details, sensorial details, what [00:12:00] they were feeling, a new perspective now as a storyteller on how they were feeling then, and those are the moments that stick.

In the story. So there isn't really a necessity for like extra backstory or extra details. It's really finding the moments of specificity and finding the moments of movement. Mm-hmm. in the story. And what that ends up doing is it, it does. Shorten it and, and each storyteller still understands the context of everything, but the audience doesn't necessarily need that context, which is also really powerful to let go of the extra.

Yeah. 

Sarah: This is so good. I'm gonna share this episode , with the group. Right now, even though it goes out in a few weeks, cuz I think that that is kind of the. Maybe the missing piece. , it's like, yes, you need to, at least, I think for me, I'm still gonna tell 'em, look, yes, write your story.

, and it seems like [00:13:00] that's what you're saying as well. You're working on this and so there, it may be a lot longer at the beginning, but then you work your way. Back and, and kind of come to the essentials and therefore the term, , your core story. And, and it makes it easier for the reader to then connect the dots, right?

, rather than having all this extra fluff that people go, huh, how is that even relevant here? 

Hillary: Yeah, and when there's a written version of the story, the core story, I still approach everything from a spoken version place. So a lot of my clients, all of them actually have to do both. They have to go through a process where, where there's writing involved, but I also make them practice with what I call low stakes audiences.

So trusted friends, business best. Not so much family members or partners, but people in your life that you feel comfortable around but might not already know everything about you. And in that practice work, [00:14:00] especially trying it with different audiences, they continue to find the story and find again what's.

Worth sharing and what needs to be shared when there's a listening audience there. Yeah. So even when it goes back to written form and you don't know who's there connecting with your story, you can still, again, feel the connection and feel the conversation of those live spoken experiences. 

Sarah: Yeah. So good.

We talked about superpowers, so I'm curious, what are your superpowers and how do you use them in your storytelling? Yeah, 

Hillary: so I love this question. I have two worksheets that I give my clients in the brainstorming phase of their core story work, and one is identifying superheroes and what connects, and that could be like fictional characters.

People alive now, people from history. Mm-hmm. , people that are close to the person. It could be [00:15:00] any, anybody really. But I make them do that. Identify what connects those people together and what connects you to those people in terms of values or , accomplishments or feelings, things like that. And then I transition them to this super powers worksheet.

And I hadn't done it for myself. And so in preparation for this podcast yesterday, I took some time and I filled out both of those worksheets and it was so difficult and I now have so much more respect. , I'm even more respect for my clients because it is a really hard task. To do. And so there's a list of 10 superpowers, like for them to brainstorm, and then there's the desert island three.

If you had to choose only three, what would they be? So the three that I chose from my list of 10, I'm looking down at my paper. Mm-hmm. , uh, my voice, my visual imagination, and the fact that I'm an opportunity creator. Mm. And it was [00:16:00] really hard to land on those. But I feel like they encompass who I am as a human, who I am as a leader, who I am as a business owner, and they are things that I can tap into and share stories about, but also just inform.

How I take up space and show up in the world. So I feel really good about what I landed on, but it, it was pretty difficult. 

Sarah: It's hard. Yeah. Of course. We're now curious what the other seven are. Can 

Hillary: you read those to us? Yeah, sure. So I said feedback and it's interesting because I know I'm really good at giving feedback.

I had a, a job many years ago where I was trained in like a very specific feedback style, and I've carried it through into my. Business, but it's also things that I hear like that is something I hear from clients of like, wow, you're so good at giving feedback. Mm-hmm. . So I claim that, , my listening ear, so I have a degree in music.

I'm a trained singer. We had to take classes and college that literally trained our [00:17:00] ear, but I know that informs how I hear stories and what I. To and how I can help people in that way. I said my visual imagination, that's like just in terms of what I see possible, but then also how I bring stories to life and how I help people bring stories to life.

Mm-hmm. commitment to self, which is one I've like really worked on over time, but feel like that is a power that I. Like now have, that's unwavering. , my comedic lens. So my background, a bit of my background is in comedy as well. And, , my partner and I are always in competition about who's funnier and he's day, , that skill, he still thinks he's like naturally funnier.

I don't know if I agree, but skills wise, I, I am the funnier person. , , a vision for what's possible. So that's for myself, for other people, for the world. Like my vision for if everyone using storytelling and what's possible, if that was the case. Mm-hmm. , [00:18:00] my feet. And so that has to do with, , my sense of groundedness, but also I'm tap dancer.

And I actually hear stories and rhythms and I like think about it like in terms of tap dancing and then also my feet in terms of like my convictions, like I am grounded in like what I stand for, what I believe in and in my, for my voice, the one I shared of my top three. It's also, it's the way I use my voice to take up space and share stories, but also my singing voice and knowing that that's there to support me as well.

Number nine, determination. And 10 was opportunity creator. And again, that's for myself and for other people. And just knowing that, yeah, opportunities can come, but they can also be created. 

Sarah: Wow. Yeah. Yeah, I can see how that must have been really hard. First, I was thinking you gave people a list with the different superpowers, but No, you came up with those 10 for you specifically.

So everybody has to come up with [00:19:00] 10 or however many on their own, right? Yeah, 

Hillary: and And it's amazing what people come up with. Mm-hmm. , because it's in their own like language and framework . For how they move through the world. Yeah. And it's, and then there's some that are really, that are shared by so many people.

Yeah. Which I think is really great. But no, I don't, people have to come up with their own list. But they, but the superheroes exercise is a springboard into that list because they already start to identify, okay, who, what connects me to this group of people that I Right. Like, respect that inform my life in some way.

Yeah. So there it's definitely one leads in's the other, for sure. 

Sarah: I just shared one of mine on, on a LinkedIn post recently, so it's top of mine. , one of mine is starting with the no, so meaning I always. Look at how can we simplify, streamline, make things easier, , less overwhelming. So that's kind of one of my superpowers, I think.

Like just very [00:20:00] straightforward and yeah, simplifying things. I love 

Hillary: that. And I can already imagine so many stories. Mm-hmm. where there were things in your life where when you started with the know what happened or moments in your life. Maybe should have started with the No, but you can share them as a, a learning Yeah.

Experience too. That's so 

Sarah: cool. Exactly. Yeah. That's wonderful. All right. I'm really excited also to go into the next topic, which is the, the hero journey, , topic that you and I had some interesting email conversations about already. , You know, it's part of that storytelling vocabulary and, and a lot of storytellers follow that hero, journey.

, and I actually wrote in the, in the book, I'm like, you know, I think I'm actually getting tired of that, same old hero journeys, , story. And so when you and I talked. My email, you shared some, also some interesting thoughts on, on that, so I'd love to hear them hear. 

Hillary: Yeah. [00:21:00] It's interesting because I, I felt a pressure that I don't even think I realized I had to have a hero's journey story starting when I was telling stories in front of audiences for entertainment, but also at the early stages of my business and needing, I felt like I needed a story that.

Expressed power and strength that I wasn't actually, that wasn't mine. Mm-hmm. like it was someone else's. Right. And that's sort of, I guess, esoteric the way I just said it, but it felt like I had to be someone else in my story. Right. To get to a certain type of, Story, a certain type of result, a certain type of messaging.

And it was this inner struggle. And I think I never, I always was resisting it, but I couldn't really fully identify why it didn't sit well with me. And then in February of 2020, I'm on New York times.com. And there's this opinion piece [00:22:00] written by this woman named Brit Marling, and she is a writer, director, actor.

She had a brilliant science fiction show that was on Netflix called The oa. And she's done some films as well. And it was a article something. The title is like, I don't wanna Be Another Strong Female Lead. And this, it's a beautiful essay and a beautiful series of stories about Brit Marlin's life before she became an actor.

And, and the sort of powerful role, woman role she had to live up to, like in the, in the finance industry. And then when she was getting these strong female roles in film, they would get killed off or beaten or all of these things. And as I'm moving through this article, she brings up the Hero's journey and Joseph Campbell.

And talks about that structure with the inciting incident and the rising action and the climax and the deman, the like happy ending resolution. And she compared it to a male orgasm . And I'm [00:23:00] reading this article and I was like, Oh yeah. . And then the end of the essay, and I'll make sure to that you can share it , in the notes.

Yes, please. Starts asking all these questions of like, well, what if there are other ways of telling stories? Like what's the, the feminine journey story and, and what happens if we imagine all of these different types of narratives then can come in And I looked and I, I, after I read that, I. Fully in myself and in my work and, and I understood myself more and I understood my approach to storytelling more.

And I really like put a stake in the ground of like, yes, there is another way. We don't need heroes journey. It's not about this one person battling. Inner and outer demons and getting on top and everybody else is under them. There are other structures for storytelling, and especially in business and marketing.

There are other ways to invite people into our experiences as the founder, business [00:24:00] owner leader, and so that was. A really powerful moment for me, and from that point on, I've pretty much been on my anti-heroes journey, train, and inviting people to join me. When I tell other people and invite other people to imagine other ways of telling stories, oh, the freedom it brings.

And also, again, I think it helps people access that inner personal power versus this idea of like achieving power that that structure brings about. 

Sarah: Yeah. Oh, I had forgotten about the orgasm thing, but that is just, yeah, I need to reread it. It's so good and it, it is funny to me how, to me, it's a bit of an outdated, way of looking at business or even life and, and, yeah.

It is because it's, very male and , this strong surviving kind of thing where if you look at it from the [00:25:00] feminine approach, it would be completely different. And it also made me think of what we, mentioned earlier , maybe the client doesn't want heroes like we were told to tell this hero's journey because the client would look at us as having lived through these difficult times.

And, and it's kind of this rag and richest story, right, that America loves. I just saw last week an article, oh, in America we love some good rag riches story. Yeah. And it's true, right? That's part of the, culture as well. But maybe the today's conscious client doesn't want those stories. And that's what I say in, in marketing, like, we're human is like, well, I can't tell you that kind of story because I, I'm not there.

You know, I'm right here, right now and I'm, , starting over. And so in a way, I feel like the conscious client wants to be on the same level, not hearing you how you have [00:26:00] suffered and now you. , succeeded and you're now a multimillionaire. So I think people have changed and, and consciousness has changed as.

Hillary: Yeah, and I work with a lot of clients that have service based businesses, so whether they're like a mindset coach or they specialize in a specific topic, like I have a client that specializes in high functioning anxiety, and she's a former therapist, her coach. Right. And she has. High functioning anxiety.

So she's trained as a clinician and a therapist and understands it that way. But she has really tapped into saying, Hey, this is something that can't be fixed and it doesn't go away, but here's what you can do to quiet it, to build self loyalty, to move through the world. And she has really found like people respond to her and.

I'm so happy that you shared this. Mm-hmm. , I feel like I don't feel broken anymore. I feel like there, it's possible for me [00:27:00] to live my life and I understand that it doesn't go away, and I understand that you go through it, but you also know how to help. And so just again, it like builds a bridge and deepens those connections with an audience.

And I do it myself in terms of like a lot of my clients, especially in their marketing endeavor. They wanna take up more space and be visible, but without the like, Big show or without, you know, they wanna do it as themselves. Like so much of what you talk about, , and I talk about, I tell stories about how scary it can be to take up space or the struggles with visibility and, and where that fear comes in and where the like, oh, what if I'm perceived this way or that kind of, all of those what ifs and things like, I still go through them as well, and I, and sometimes there are better days and so, There are are worse, and that that's always gonna be an ongoing issue and struggle.

Sarah: Yeah. I feel like in a way, the hero's journey is part of the [00:28:00] old. Marketing paradigm as well, where we didn't share with transparency. We just shared, you know, the 6, 7, 8 figure success, right? It's like, oh look, I came from nothing and now I'm, I have an eight figure business where that just. I believe definitely doesn't resonate with our audiences, but it also will no longer resonate as much with other people because we're, we just want transparency.

That's what we want today. So in a way, to me, the hero's journey, at least the way he saw it, kind of belongs to the past. we need to have different frameworks and, and I'm so glad you're, you're offering these, I 

Hillary: just, one thing too about the hero's journey is there's a pressure for an ending that hasn't necessarily happened yet, and yeah, one thing I really appreciate that I heard you say in conversation with, I believe, Lisa, in your conversation about storytelling, there is this idea of the messy.

[00:29:00] Middle. Mm-hmm. and that they, when you let go of the hero's journey structure, there's so much storytelling that can happen about the messy middle, right? That, again, serves you as the communicator, but also the audience in all of the ways we just. Talked about 

Sarah: as well. Yeah, exactly. That, that's what really connects with your audience and, and, and then of course, yeah, you need to think about Brene Brown and think about the vulnerability and decide, well, how, what's the intention behind me sharing this?

Is there integrity behind this? , me sharing this or, or, because right now we all know that, okay, it sells to share with vulnerability. So obviously we don't just want to share it because it sells, but because we really want to. Connect and relate with our audience. But, but yeah, the messy middle, that's where, that's where the good stories are, right?

Yeah. 

Hillary: Yeah. And I think one set of questions I take myself through [00:30:00] and take my clients through is the, why am I telling this story? And what do I want my listener to do once they've heard this story? Mm-hmm. . And I feel like when those questions are answered and identified, the, it's like the checklist of integrity, the checklist of intentional vulnerability that's safe, both for the communicator and for the audience.

It's not manipulative, it's not oversharing, all of that. So I love that too. And again, I think going back to personal power. That gives you more inner strength as the communicator to be like, oh no, this is why I'm sharing this. Yeah. And this is what I want them to do once they've heard or hope that they'll do once they've heard.

Yeah. 

Sarah: Yeah. So good. You mentioned several times this term of , taking up space. So how does being in your personal power and telling stories from that place, how does that help us with taking up space? [00:31:00] 

Hillary: I found for myself, and I found it through storytelling, that when I was able to know myself and know how I wanted to share myself with other people and then find those stories that I wanted to share.

I was not afraid of taking up space because it's this like my inner message of like, this is who I am. I know myself. I'm committed to myself back to one of my superpowers, and I have a reason for sharing this. Story with you. So I have no choice but to take up space because I am doing it with intention and with the goal of this.

Creating a dialogue. Creating a connection. And so I believe that storytelling gives people that personal power to get comfortable being visible, to get comfortable taking up space, which marketing is getting comfortable, being visible, getting comfortable taking up space as you are. Authentic self and as the [00:32:00] expert that you are coming from that authentic, genuine place.

So I think that it's like grounded in a trust of self, but then it's also, you have to trust your story and trust that it will communicate for you and do the work for you. And then there's that third piece, which is you have to also trust your audience in order to take up space and be visible. And that can be really scary too, especially if it's a audience.

Is landing on a webpage and you don't know who they are listening to a podcast and you don't necessarily have a face or a name to connect. 

Sarah: Yeah, and I feel like. If you're doing that deeper work of really figuring out, okay, what is the core story and not, like we mentioned before, you know, what are was my education, what are my accolades and accreditations and all of that.

Then you're taking up space from a different place, , not from necessarily the ego, but probably from your gut more. [00:33:00] And so it's a different, it's not. It's not an intimidating space or a, you know, ego driven space. It's just. Grounded space in a way. It's like, here I am, you know, this is what I believe in, this is what I stand for.

You like it, great. I open my arms. If you don't like it, you know, feel free. , go to the next person. That's what I perceive. 

Hillary: I love that visualization of, of open arms and then, and like I think of it as like a heart centered right way of com, like your stories coming out of your mouth, but it's also coming out.

Your heart. And I think it takes a bit of, , like I, I've never sky gone skydiving or bungee jumped, but I think it's this idea of like letting the trust and self trusts and story trust in the audience be a letting go in the moment and saying like, this is, yeah. What you said. This is who I am, this is what I believe, this is what I have to offer the [00:34:00] world here.

I go, mm-hmm. . And it can feel really scary at. But it's the most freeing feeling to communicate from that space versus any other space of trying to fit into a, a template or a formula or put on a character or a facade. Like it just isn't worth it. . Yeah. 

Sarah: So what would you tell someone, uh, tell our listeners.

If they want to, you know, you know, get this deeper trust and probably figure out their superpowers to start from where, where would they go? 

Hillary: Yeah. I mean, it really does start with a trust in self and I think there's a lot of brainstorming work, like even just sitting and thinking. What stories from my life are even coming to mind immediately and without trying to bring in the logical of like, well, why is this coming to mind?

And all that, but just trusting the memories and the [00:35:00] brainstorming ideas that are coming to the surface and just logging them in some way. Mm-hmm. , I make my clients have something called a story bank. I think your um, Lisa mentioned something about a story bank. Mm-hmm. as well. Mm-hmm. . Um, but just logging your brainstorming ideas there and, and keeping them there and holding onto them for the time when you're ready to explore it as a story.

So I take my clients through like a two hour brainstorming experience as part of the work that they do. I know a lot of my stories, idea story ideas have come from just like a, a flash of a memory that I had or an object that's in my space that reminds me of something. So I would say that's a really great place to start in terms of cultivating the trust.

Mm-hmm. . And then it's a matter of, ooh, let me. Go with this one idea and let's see what happens if I add a beginning, middle, and end. I may be right some around it. Practice [00:36:00] telling the story in an off the cuff way to a friend, and then building trust in the story and the storytelling and what that can do for you.

I would say those are the good places to start. The trusting audience stuff can definitely, Take longer 

Sarah: to, it's a muscle, right. That you kind of practice. Yeah. Yeah. What I would I add also is, is this creativity thinking. Like what, what I wrote about in the book is this idea of,

for probably a decade now, we know about storytelling, but if you come from this left brain thinking, analytical mind of I have to do marketing and now I have to, you know, tell stories in my marketing, your left brain. Is an overtrained muscle where your right brain is an undertrained muscle, and so your left brain will always want to bring in some techniques and, and, and features and benefits and, and those make.

Don't make for a [00:37:00] good story, right? Where really the right brain is bringing in the creative storytelling approach. And so I would say yeah, bring in some creative, , activities let that brain take off and, and, and experiment freely. , to me it really. When I understood storytelling is when my right brain turned on.

I'm like, oh, okay. So it's more about connecting with my audience and not about, you know, making them do something or buy something or, or any of that. So I think that was, , yeah, important to share here. 

Hillary: Yeah, and I think listening to other people's stories, whether it's like in someone else's marketing, but also just.

Watching videos of storytellers on YouTube or listening to storytelling podcasts, right. At any time I hear someone really like in their story and sharing, I'm connected to it, but at the same time, it's helping me think of stories from my life that I want [00:38:00] to share. Yeah. And also I know when I go for walks or.

My ideas always come to the surface, and I always have like a, either on my phone or a notepad next to me. , I just shared a story about my dentist in my newsletter, and that had been, I, that appointment was in. July, I think. So I was sitting with that story just brainstorming wise until I was ready to share it and had a reason to share it with my audience as 

Sarah: well.

Mm. Yeah. That's good. There needed to be a reason, right? Because obviously otherwise, Yeah, it's just a story, but if there's a reason for the story, then it always is more compelling. Yeah. Yes. This has been so good. Thank you so much for sharing a different, very refreshing and radical approach to storytelling.

I really appreciated it. Let people know where they can find you and find out more about [00:39:00] your way of doing things. 

Hillary: Sure. So the best place to connect is on tell me a story's website, which is tell me a story.info. And there's also a link on that page to something called the Speak Up session. It's a monthly free gathering that I host virtually, all around storytelling and taking up space and, and visibility.

And there's typically a guest storyteller that. Jumping off the ledge, ready to share their story with a, a wonderful, warm audience. And then opportunity to kind of dive into your own storytelling and communication challenges. So I invite anyone listening that wants to check that out, to sign up and 

Sarah: come.

Wonderful. Yeah, we'll make sure we add that link in the show notes as well. Thank you so much. I have one last question, Hillary, and that is what are you grateful for today? Or this. Mm. 

Hillary: I mean, this is very literal, but I'm really grateful for our conversation and I'm also grateful. [00:40:00] That I reached out to you.

I used my voice to reach out with you many months ago because you and your work really resonated and we had such a lovely conversation. And so I'm grateful for this relationship that has been built and for being in conversation with someone that is so aligned. It's really lovely and I'm just a fan of your work, and your work is important and much needed.

So thank you. Thank 

Sarah: you. And likewise, thanks so much for being.

Today I'm chatting with my friend Jen Corcoran about how to make your passion part of your business. Jen and I have known each other many years as we are both LinkedIn specialists - and we even met once in real life in London. Most recently we hosted the 'LinkedIn Like We're Human' workshop together which was so fun and people absolutely adored it. In case you missed it you can buy the recording of that 75-minute masterclass for only $27.

Jen Corcoran is an award-winning LinkedIn expert. Known as 'The Super Connector' and one of the UK's most successful LinkedIn trainers, she helps thousands of people thrive online through her online courses, consulting, workshops and talks.

Jen helps female entrepreneurs to increase their confidence on LinkedIn by teaching them how to super boost their LinkedIn profile and connect with finesse in order to raise their brand, attract more clients and make more money in a holistic and human way. She is passionate about human design and is a Generator 1/3.

In this episode, you'll learn about how to make your passion part of your business as well as...

• Jen's recent brand transformation - and personal awakening
• Her new 'niche' that mirrors who she is and how she sees the world of business
• How she also brought her passion for Human Design into her LinkedIn work
• How knowing more about their design helps her clients show up on LinkedIn
• What has changed for her since this transformation, how she communicates differently
• How she lives her new 'brand' on LinkedIn? What kind of posts etc?
• Her advice to listeners if they would like to combine one of their passions with their work but don't know where to start.
• And so much more

Jen's Resources

 

Jen's Website

Check out Jen's free resources

Connect with Laura on:

LinkedIn

YouTube

 

Sarah's Resources

Watch this episode on Youtube

(FREE) Sarah's One Page Marketing Plan

(FREE) Sarah Suggests Newsletter

(FREE) The Humane Business Manifesto

(FREE) Gentle Confidence Mini-Course

Marketing Like We're Human - Sarah's book

The Humane Marketing Circle

Authentic & Fair Pricing Mini-Course

Podcast Show Notes

We use Descript to edit our episodes and it's fantastic!

Email Sarah at [email protected]

Thanks for listening!

 

After you listen, check out Humane Business Manifesto, an invitation to belong to a movement of people who do business the humane and gentle way and disrupt the current marketing paradigm. You can download it for free at this page. There's no opt-in. Just an instant download.

Are you enjoying the podcast?  The Humane Marketing show is listener-supported—I'd love for you to become an active supporter of the show and join the Humane Marketing Circle. You will be invited to a private monthly Q&A call with me and fellow Humane Marketers -  a safe zone to hang out with like-minded conscious entrepreneurs and help each other build our business and grow our impact.  — I'd love for you to join us! Learn more at humane.marketing/circle

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Warmly,

Sarah

Imperfect Transcript of the show

We use and love Descript to edit our podcast and provide this free transcript of the episode. And yes, that's an affiliate link.

Sarah: Hey Jen, so good to speak to you. 

Jen: Lovely to see you, Sarah. Thanks for having me on today. 

Sarah: Yeah, thank you. Feel like we just spoken and we did LA we just hosted that, , workshop on LinkedIn, like we're human together last week. Right. And so yeah. Great. We decided, Okay. You know, it's a good idea to also, , kind of host a podcast.

But with a bit of a different angle. So we're not actually gonna talk too much about LinkedIn, even though Yeah. That's what you do for a living. But I'm super curious, , about this transformation that I feel like you've gone through in the last, would you say a year or, or so? 

Jen: Yeah, definitely a year and definitely this whole year.

So 2022. 

Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. So from just seeing and also our conversations via email, but also just seeing your, your posts on LinkedIn, you can kind of see from the outside. Ah, Jen [00:01:00] has been going through some transformation, you know, some in their work, but then that was also reflected in your brand.

Right. So kind of tell us about, Transformation, what led you to it? Probably and, and yeah. Where, what you're doing now. 

Jen: Yeah. I think it's just, I think when you are a business owner, you're always doing some kind of personal development work to, to get better. Within yourself that will help your business as a whole.

So I think just from coaching and networking, I've met some really interesting people over the last few years and one of them was a specialist in human design and I had a mini human design reading where, and I was like, Wow, this is really interesting. I wanna explore more. So got really nerdy. You recommended a great book to me, which I read, and I did a course and kind of dipping my toe in more and more and more and started to do mini [00:02:00] readings from my clients.

, so yeah, if just from networking, I met an amazing human design specialist. I'll give her a shout out. Nicole Leno, and she's got an amazing podcast as well. And uh, yeah, she kind of triggered that kind of part of me and. Another thing I discovered over the last year or two during the Covid times really , was that I'm a highly sensitive person, which was pretty eye-opening.

I never real, I knew I was a bit sensitive, but I, I had no idea that one in five people was like me. I always thought I was a bit of an oddball on my own and kind of, you know, tried to mirror everybody else around me. Finding out that one in five, you know, whether their male or female is highly sensitive, was just like an epiphany moment.

And it was like, 

Sarah: where did you say, one out 

Jen: of five? Yeah, 20%. Wow. Which I never realized. I, I thought they're not, you know, there can't be that many people like me out there, or that's how I felt. Yeah. So it was really freeing and I was just, Where are these people? Because [00:03:00] I don't really see them, especially on LinkedIn.

, there's more of that kind of hustle bro marketing approach. And I was like, we're all sensitive people. I wanna connect with them. All the impacts. So I think, yeah, the combination of the HS p and then the human design have led to my epiphany . 

Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. No, totally. And that's exactly, I loved, loved it so much how you kind.

You know, it made your, uh, , audience participate in that discovery because you were like posting things on LinkedIn. , did you know this about HSPs and so , There's probably a fair amount of your, , followers who discovered at the same time as you did that they are, , highly sensitive people.

Yeah, it was really interesting to watch that transformation. And, to me, from the outside looking in, it looks. Your ideal client is now kind of a twin of you or a mirror of [00:04:00] you? . It's 

Jen: me, . It's basically another sensitive, so I either an inch pair an empire or a highly sensitive person.

So because I just think I didn't have these role models when I was, you know, starting off in business or going into the online space, I modeled. The nonsense of people. And yes, it's worked to a point, but I, yeah, I just wouldn't like really represent the other side of things because I think as sensitives, we are the kind of the quiet nurturers in the background who are not necessarily making the most noise and we're always trying to spotlight other people and , , Nurture from afar.

So I feel like yeah, kind of a responsibility to get that side of things out there and to, you know, be somebody for the other sensitives to relate to as well. Because I think a lot of the, the traditional, like non sensitive marketing made me feel like a bit of a failure. It was like I could do it to a point, and then it was [00:05:00] like, why isn't this working for me?

I feel like I'm banging my head against a wall. Why does this feel gross? Yeah. Or why can't I do this? Is it because I'm so sensitive? And then you kind of realize, oh, there is another way of doing things . Yeah, totally. But just put that out 

Sarah: there. Yeah. Yeah. How do you feel right now with your new brand?

Because like if you talk. Typical thing of nicheing, , Yeah. You know, how do you define your niche? And, and now really in your words, it's like, well, I am my best ideal client. And so often I have, , kind of new people in business telling me is that even okay? Can we, you know, look at it that way?

And I'm like, Yeah, for sure. Because we are creating the solution that we never saw out there. So, So do you see it that way as well? 

Jen: Yeah, definitely. And I think for a long time I'm very much an accidental business owner. I never set out [00:06:00] to, to intentionally do this, and it happened by accident. So I think for the first year of my business There wasn't a lot of attention behind what my brand was and who I stood for, and I was helping everyone. And then it got to a point when it was like, Okay, who do I intentionally wanna work with? And then I was, you know, still not super focused. And then it's got to the stage where, who do I like working wear?

And it's okay to choose the people that I like because for me, energy is super important and. I'm sure we've all had experiences when we've worked with the wrong people and your energy is totally depleted, like mentally, physically. And I think it got to that point where I thought, you know what, Who says being in business can't be fun?

Who says I can't work with the people that I want to, who can give me energy and I can give them energy? So it's kind of, it's taken me a long time. I wish I'd. Got to this realization in the first year of my business, but I think it's taken like five years to actually go, Do you know what? I have the right to choice.

It's my business, my rules, and these are the people I choose to support. [00:07:00] Yeah. Um, I think when you first start, you just wanna help everyone, but then you're a bit too generic and a bit too vague, and you're ultimately not helping. And you're not helping yourself either because you're not reaching or connecting with the right people.

Sarah: Right? Yeah. No, totally. So, so to me, you really kind of applied humane marketing because not only did you bring more of you to your marketing, so the H S P aspect, but then you also brought in your passion, which is the human design, right? So, yeah. Yeah, really combining things that we think is just.

Fitting into the business world. Did you ever ask yourself that question? Can I? Yeah. Who am I to do that? 

Jen: Yeah, definitely. And I struggled with it and. , initially, especially with the, Yeah, well, both of them. It was like, Oh, if I start saying I'm as sensitive, well people think, Oh, I don't wanna work with her , what does that mean?

And I think there's a lot of misconceptions about, like, do people think I'm constantly [00:08:00] crying and it's like, I don't, I don't cry that much. I cry on something sad, you know, obviously, but I've, I'm not like this overly emotional person, but I think when you say sensitive a lot, there's a lot of misconceptions out there with certain terms and they don't know what that means.

So I think for me, I. Explore what that meant as well. What were the pros, what were the cons? And then I started to realize, oh, my sensitivity, the fact that I am an empath is my superpower because I can genuinely like support and nurture those clients that need that help, as opposed to just that, just do it.

Approach and people are left kind like, Oh, I need a bit more support, more engagement, more accountability. So it took me a while to kinda lean into that. And then especially with the human design, I did struggle thinking, Woo, is this a bit too woo for people? And then I had to really like at myself and go, You know what?

Who says it can't be a bit woo? And then it was like, I think I felt like I'd been. Putting myself in a box, like a marketing box [00:09:00] like everyone else. But it didn't feel quite right. And having discovered the human design, it was like, well, this is the missing piece. And actually, if people know me on a, on an individual level, I've always been quite you.

Woo. And I remember even being like, you know, 10 years old and buying books. Capricorn, what does it mean to be a Capricorn? And then, you know what, whatever 20 yard get my life chart read and I am into this kind of thing. So it's been, it's been really interesting integrating this and I, and I'm not fully there yet.

I'm very much a work in progress and it's. It's actually typical of my human design. I've learned I'm the type of person has to investigate, do a lot of research, and I'm doing that at the moment. I've given myself the goal of a hundred mini human design readings from my clients, and I think. Once I've ticked off that box in my head, then I'll transition more, a lot more into the, into that in the marketing.

So I'm very much in my reset. I wish, [00:10:00] I wish I wasn't one of the, the, like the, the investigators that have to kind of do this, but this is my personality . I have to dig deep before I've got the confidence. Now I've, I know I've done the research, I've done all. Did. Now I feel like I'm gonna talk about this.

Whereas I know there's lots of other people who are just like, Okay, I'm an expert. I've done one reading, and here I go. Whereas I have, I feel personally and according to my design, I have to do it the long way. Yeah, it's very much a work in progress, but I'm getting there. I've done, like, I've done 75 mini readings over the summer, which has been really exciting.

, I've, it's been great getting to learn everybody's personality, , their makeup and getting their feedback too. And, you know, hearing that it resonates so much, even from like a simple little reading. 

Sarah: So how do you combine the two then? Are these still LinkedIn clients and you're just using the human design as kind of a, a way to discover their superpower?

Or are they coming [00:11:00] to you only for human design? 

Jen: No, they're, they're definitely LinkedIn clients, and then I've done a few Guinea things with friends and family as well. So I'm incorporating it really in terms of. Content and sending dms and what feels natural. So it's very much a, a mini human design reading.

I'm not saying, Oh, I'm the ultimate human design expert. It's just, I've taken a kind of a flavor of it, like what I think is really interesting in terms of online marketing and feeding that back. And I think it's given people so much. Insight and then freedom to be themselves and realize, wow, we're not all born to just do it and manifest and initiate

Yeah. And I think that that makes a lot of people feel like failure because there's like, Why can't I just do it? And then you kind of read their design and you're like, Ah. Cause you're not built to just do it. It's not 

Sarah: being right. Yeah. I, And I love that. I love how. [00:12:00] Call it a mini reading because you're saying, you know, like you said, you know, others go to human design school and I think it takes like a, I don't, can't remember how long, but it, it's pretty intense.

And so you're like, No, I'm passionate about this and I know enough to be able to tell you. You know, this is your design and this is how I think now you can use it in, you know, your showing up on, on LinkedIn and, and it's similar to what we do in the marketing, like we're human program and the P of Personal Power.

I go, you know, I show them about human design, I show them about the ENEA grant, like everything. We're like, okay, let's just do a lot of personality assessments to really figure out how we're wired and who we are. Yeah. And because like, Showed. And, and that's why I, I loved having you on for this is it's like when you know who you are and how you're wired, then you can really market from within and just show up, [00:13:00] right?

Jen: Yeah. And um, you remind me that I have got a book on any grand I've yet to read cuz I like you, I love anything to do with this. So I've done all the disc, the Myers break. That is on my reading list and yeah, it's another good one. Another one to explore. 

Sarah: Exactly. Yeah. So what do you feel like has changed, since this transformation?

Like do you feel like in your LinkedIn post you show up differently, more confident or. What has changed? Yeah. I think I'm 

Jen: just more confident in myself. It's taken away a lot of stress about feeling, and I had to act one way and having that inner struggle, but not quite understanding why I had that inner struggle.

because I could do a lot of like nonsensitive things or things that are against my design, but, you know, knowing deep down that things didn't feel. Completely a hundred percent good . And so it's made me kind of go, Oh, okay. That's why that doesn't feel good because my design as a generator is that I'm built [00:14:00] to respond and I, it totally makes sense when I learn that, you know, I can go on LinkedIn any minute of the day and I can respond and do a comment to any post because that's just who I am.

And I like giving my opinion and I like sharing like that. And I just, To be in response. So that's really been eye opening as opposed to this kind of, you know, initiation, constantly creating content. I can do it, you know, but I have to be in response to something. So it could be a. We did our amazing workshop on, you know, LinkedIn.

Well, we're human and I'll think back and go, Okay, what were the questions that people were asking me? And then I'll go out and make content in response. Mm-hmm. to that. And that feels good because they're general, you know, FAQs, the questions, answers. Whereas I did struggle with just creating content, you know, out of nowhere.

So I think, yeah, once you know, Your makeup, like what feels good for you, then you can, Then you can, Yeah. You just feel a lot more free, a lot more happy at [00:15:00] ease. Whereas before, yeah, I just felt a bit more in a box and a bit more pressurizing and I was like, Why can't I do this the way the others do ? And at the surface I probably looked like I was, you know, doing it the same, but it just didn't feel as good deep down.

Sarah: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. , I feel like. We're talking about the worldview a lot in humane marketing. Like instead of maybe narrowing down your niche, so specifically I, I say bring your worldview to your marketing. do you feel like, Openly saying, you, you talked about the woo does that feel like, okay, this is part of my worldview.

That's just how I see things, and whether you agree with that or not, I don't care because this is where I stand for. Yeah. 

Jen: Yeah. I think it's important to bring yourself and your two personality to your marketing, because you'll never. , you want to attract the right people and you wanna repel the wrong people.

Mm-hmm. . So if somebody doesn't like the woo, they're not my ideal client, and that, and [00:16:00] that's fine. You know? , so I think it's about just leaning into that and realize you are never gonna attract everyone anyway. And, and. Thinking, Well, who do you wanna attract? And if you speak their language, they will come to you.

The other people won't be interested. But they will have a very different worldview and a very different way of thinking. Cause I know the two of us, we have a big focus and passion about. Showing up as a human being. So I'd say we're both more excited than the algorithm and the stats and the, the kinda analytical side of it.

Obviously we know about it, but it doesn't light me up. We'd ra like, we'd rather a human approach and I think people who resonate with that will come to us. Whereas if somebody is more, you know, interested in the algorithm and the figures, there will be another trainer or consultant that will be the best fit for them and that's fine.

They're not my adding client . So I think it's kinda, yeah. , just realizing that you will actually be a lot happier in your business. You will [00:17:00] attract. Far better clients if you lean into who you are. And I know initially I was afraid to do it because you're looking at everyone else and you have feeling you have to be this perfect version of you and then you realize it's kind of all built on a lie.

And I think that's how I felt with my business. I'd won all these awards, but I just felt all a bit fake. It was kind of like, I've done your way of marketing, I can do it, but deep doesn't resonate at all. It's like, and it didn't, you know, I didn't always attract the right people to me, and that's why, because I was perpetuating one kind of type of marketing that wasn't fully in alignment.

So I think, yeah, it's just realizing is, is okay to show up as yourself, you know, Woo. Warts and all, you know, and, and you, you'll feel a lot freer and. That will, you will attract the right people then because the right energy will go out. 

Sarah: Before you said, you know, you wish you'd known five years ago. And, and, and I definitely [00:18:00] feel the same.

Do you feel like. Sometimes I'm confused. I feel like maybe it's almost like you have to go through this in order to figure out who you are. Yeah. But at the same time, I would like, , for new business owners to kind of take the shortcut and just start with that. But it's, I seem to hear that story over and over again.

I wish I'd known, you know, when I, I kind of went. That direction first until I came back and came full circle. What's the, Yeah, what's your take 

Jen: on this? I think it, I think everybody just needs to read your books. . Thanks. You know, the marketing book and the selling book, because I think people just need to know there are different options out there, you know, because, We don't all fit in the same box, but sadly, a lot of people who have louder voices get their kind of boxes out there, and you think that that's the norm.

Whereas there are like quite earth boxes, , you know, more sensitive sides. So I think it's [00:19:00] important to, to just spotlight that there are different ways and different types of people, different types of personalities, different types of makeup. , and sadly, a lot of that wasn't out there, and I'm so grateful for you writing your books and starting this conversation and starting your marketing circle and getting the conversation out there because I think more people need to hear it because.

Yeah, there's a lot of, it's, you know, there's so many people looking on LinkedIn and it's like, why are they looking? They're probably sensitive. They're probably like us kinda going, Oh, I'm not sure if this resonates with me. This feels a bit too much. So yeah, I think it's important to, to get this message out there because we don't want people to.

Go to the, you know, the pain. Yeah, yeah, the pain. But I suppose, like you say, sometimes is worth it. It's like a diamond. It has to be crushed, doesn't it? To, you know, have as brilliance in the end. And I suppose you appreciate. The journey when you're at the end of it. I don't, can't say I appreciated it [00:20:00] in the hard times, but, I suppose that's what we do.

We've done the journey in the hard times, and I don't want everybody to have to go through this if they can avoid 

Sarah: it. Yeah. So you're, you're, what you're saying is you think it's still like that for a lot of people who are just starting. They take some kind of, I, you know, hear it from a lot of coaching.

They get their coaching, degree or accreditation. And then immediately even in the school, they tell 'em, Oh, there's this and this marketing program. And usually they're the big. Big giant programs, Right. That we all know who we're talking about. Yeah. And they're exactly, They're just kind of get fit into this box or funnel or whatever.

Yeah. And then, yeah, they're like, Oh, I didn't know I was gonna have to do this marketing thing. That really doesn't feel good. . Yeah. 

Jen: Yeah. I think so many bus, I mean, I was naive when I first launched. I was like, Oh, here's my website today. And I just thought, Oh, they're all so booking in. Sales calls. I [00:21:00] don't need sales calls.

I'm an introvert. They're just gonna book to my website and they're gonna email me. And it was kinda like, , no , you have to get like your voice out there and attract people to your website. So it is very much a learning lesson. And I think a lot of business owners, we did not go into business to be doing, the marketing side of things or the selling side of things.

So yeah, I. And there's, I've heard of so many horror stories, like you said, about big programs where there's very much a methodology that's the, the lead coach's way. But quite often the lead coach is quite unique in their makeup or their personality or their human design. So it's not easily like replicated with the people that sign up because they're completely different.

You know, mindset wise, mentality wise, make you know, completely different types of people. But they kind of perpetuate that this is the only, the only way to do it. And that's why a lot of people fall out of love with LinkedIn or the online [00:22:00] space, cuz they're just like, Oh, it's too hard. but yeah, they kind of push this method as the only way and.

I have heard about people just doing things that didn't resonate and then just writing off LinkedIn or writing off the online space, which is quite sad. , which I think is important. Like that's why it's so important to have your, your voice out there, your message out there, your books out there. 

Sarah: Mm.

Thank you, Jen. Yeah. What, what do you say to someone who's listening and, you know, they're thinking about this idea of the passion? Maybe it's, woo, maybe it's, yeah, maybe it's not. Woo. Maybe it's just something that they're doing as a hobby. , and they, that they really love and they're like, I wish I could.

You know, do more of this. And I think really that's what, where we're heading, I'm always talking about this new business paradigm, but that's what I mean by the new business paradigm is like, how do we combine, , these things? I don't even buy into the conversation of, you know, you're not really running a business.

It is a hobby. I'm like, Well, what [00:23:00] if one can be the other? It's just like, why do we have to define. One as a hobby and the other one as a business. Yeah. What if we just not talk about making a life or making a living? You know, like, yeah, we all ne have bills to pay. We need to provide for ourselves, but we just need to figure out what we can do That A, brings us joy, but also, you know, somehow pays the bills.

So yeah. What would you say to someone who's like, I have. Passion for something, but it has nothing to do with what I do for a living. You know? What would you tell them? How did you go about thinking, What if I bring this in? 

Jen: I would just say lean into it a hundred percent. And I know somebody said it to me like five and a half years ago.

Do something you love. And I was like, Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I kind of brushed it off and I was like, Oh, I like LinkedIn, whatever. And I didn't fully listen to them and it's taken me five years to come around. So definitely, incorporate that. [00:24:00] They don't have to be two separate things, as Sarah is saying, and you're gonna need some kind of point of differentiation.

I think at the, at the start, we're all like, What's my usb? What's my usp? And there's a lot of it that crosses over everybody else's usp. But I think it's the thing that will make you different is this passion, you know, this love for something. That will be the thing that will actually draw people to you, which I would never have thought of, you know, five years ago.

I would just think, Well, you're willing to train, you're gonna come, I'm gonna chat about LinkedIn. Why would I chat about anything else? So I would fully lean into it and you might surprise yourself with, you know, the opportunities and. People buy people, but it's, it's that passion and energy and I know kind of leaning into human design has reignited my love of LinkedIn.

Mm-hmm. , which is probably dwindling a little bit because of that Bro hustle marketing. I was like, oh God, you know, It was a way for me to kind of go, okay, if I do a bit of [00:25:00] this and a bit of that, It just, yeah, it's re-energized me and my business, and I'm a lot more excited to work with people one to one and kick things off with the human design reading, you know?

So I would say, yeah, fully lean in, Don't discount any of your passions because they can be the thing that makes you stand out and be memorable. Top of mind. So, yeah, lean into it and you never know, like, who's to say your passion can't make you money. Like, you know, I think we all have this idea, and I know I did that.

You know, business is hard. It has to be hard. We have to do the hard work. We've come from corporate and we've done so many hours and it has to be the same in our business. And you think, no, actually, you know, our passions and our strengths, not everybody has them right for staff, and we deserve to be paid well for them.

We're sharing our knowledge and our enthusiasm at, you know, and our expertise. So I would lean into it because who says you can't have fun with your business and [00:26:00] you can't do something that you love? And the most successful business owners are the ones who are in love with what they do, , because it doesn't feel like a business.

Then they've got that motivation. They wanna wake up, they wanna do more of that, whereas, yeah. I, I was losing a little bit of passion, and I won't lie, , I was about two years ago. I was kind of like, oh, because there was too many other, you know, just crush it, just do it. And I was like, Oh, this isn't resonating.

So finding this or leaning into this bit of woo , I don't think is way, but I, you know, the, the, the wrong type of person will think is way, whatever. I'm not interested in this at all, but leading into it has really like little spark in me. Yeah, I totally lean into your passion. Never discount them because you never know where it's gonna lead you.

And who says can't make you money? . 

Sarah: Yeah. And, and I really, again, from the outside looking in it like it made your brand, like, you know, before you had a brand, but. [00:27:00] It that was kind of like, Well, it's what everybody else is saying. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And, and, and let's, let's just say it how it is, like, you know, Link, There's a lot of LinkedIn specialists and experts now.

Before when we started, maybe less. Yeah. Um, but, but now everybody is a LinkedIn trainer, so Yeah. How can you, Yeah. How do you stand out? And that's kind of just an additional benefit of bringing your passion into your business because that's truly how you're gonna Yeah. Stand out and be remembered. I'm, I remember, one of my, , early friend online friends, Denise Wakeman, she.

Probably like 10 years ago now, she kind of rebranded into, can't remember the exact name of the brand, but really had to do with her adventurous spirit. And she was always traveling and to like, you know, crazy places like Peru and, and all these places. And she made that her brand and so, That kind of stuff sticks with you.

So [00:28:00] I think it's, it's the same thing for you 

Jen: really. It's how you connect as a human being, isn't it? It's like when you, Right before this podcast, I was in a networking event and it's a little bit different in the sense of the host makes us.

Kind of not strange questions but different questions. Like one question was, you know, tell me something off your book at list or tell me , what's your guilty pleasure? And it's kind of like these kind of questions are how you connect. Cuz we were all laughing, you know, we were chatting about a lot of the guilty pleasures were really trash TV programs,

And it was like, ok, I'm gonna remember you're the lady that liked that. You know, like rather. Your profession. You know, like it's when you bring that bit of personality in. Yeah. Another one was like, who would you take on a blind date? And this was how we were actually connecting and laughing as human beings.

This kind of made such a difference and I think. In business, you can kind of be tunnel vision and like, Oh, I'm LinkedIn trainer. You know, LinkedIn is [00:29:00] all blah, blah, blah. LinkedIn. LinkedIn, LinkedIn, LinkedIn. But it, you know, it was when you bring that extra passion in or that extra thing that you do, like, I love the, the way you were always mentioning that you're like an ex hippie that's in my head, you know?

So I think, yeah, things like that make the. 

Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. No, totally. Ah, this has been so good. Thank you so much, Jen. I, I can, I think people hear that passion as well, you know, it's like, Yeah. You can tell that from the kind of boring, you know, LinkedIn algorithms, blah, blah, blah. No, it's like, You're talking to humans.

Yes, these humans want to use LinkedIn, but you're basically helping them with this tool that is human design to really figure out, well, how is this LinkedIn tool gonna work for you? Because you're just listening to everybody else out there. Well, they're gonna tell you, yeah, to sell your soul on LinkedIn and maybe that's not gonna work for you.

[00:30:00] So, 

Jen: Oh, and I think it gives you, it gives you an understanding of yourself, but it also gives you an understanding of of other people. And then it's like, Oh, okay, that didn't work for that person, because they're that type of person and I think we need to learn to. Understand each other more because there's a lot of copy and paste and, you know, cookie clutter approaches out there, and they're never gonna work with everyone.

They're only gonna resonate where it's a tiny percentage. So I think the more you can understand yourself and others, the more you're gonna connect as a, as an individual, and you're gonna have better relationships. And I think so many people just wanna fast track, don't they? They just want this magic silver bullet.

I want it now. Yeah, and you have to put 

Sarah: a little bit work in. And I was just thinking as, as you're talking it, it's because we're, we're hosting a, a workshop about, about confidence and there as well. The first part to confidence is to know yourself and find out who you are and how you're wired. And so when you think about marketing, you [00:31:00] need confidence to market well, you need to know yourself first before you get the confidence.

So 

Jen: yeah, that's really interesting cuz I don't. A lot of, many readings this year and one of my clients there is like one of the centers in human design about the south, and hers is completely open. And yeah, she doesn't really know herself. She's actually in that transition of trying to, you know, Find out who she is, and I know it's definitely led to a lot of procrastination for her and mm-hmm.

and stress. So I think, yeah, you really need to know who you are, who you stand, you know, what you stand for, what are your values, what are you trying to achieve, and not copy other people's values. You really need to dig deep as to what's gonna resonate with you. Yeah. Rather than, you know, a lot of copy and paste.

Oh, that sounds good. I'll take a bit of that. Or I should be doing this because I do this. But yeah, I. You have to, you have to have that confidence. That's if you don't have it. You're [00:32:00] not gonna ever be comfortable showing up as a business owner, whether it is online or on a sales call or anything, and people can feel that off you

They can feel that energy if you are not confident. They're not gonna be confident in partnering with money to work with you. Confidence is everything, isn't it? 

Sarah: It is. Yeah. This has been so good. Thank you so much for taking the time. Please do share with people where they can find you and maybe sign up for a, a mini reading slash LinkedIn Consulting.

Tell us all about where they can find you. Pairing 

Jen: Sarah, so obviously I'm on LinkedIn, so it's Jen Corcoran, c o r c o r a n, or my website is www.mysuperconnector.co uk. And yeah, so two of them are probably my main things and you could find my email on my website as well. 

Sarah: [00:33:00] Wonderful. I always have one last question and that is, what are you grateful for today?

Or this. 

Jen: I'm grateful for you on this conversation and someone bringing the human side of life and marketing out there, because I don't know anybody else doing it, Sarah. So I'm grateful for us getting this out in the world, and I can't wait to share this podcast with my network and my community. So, yeah, grateful for a like mine.

Thank you. Fellow hsv, fellow introverts, fellow centered people in business. Cause I know when I first started it was like heart centered. What's that? That's a bit, you know? But yeah, I'm all about people like you and you, 

Sarah: and likewise. Thank you so much for hanging out again, Jen. We'll do it again 

Jen: soon.

Thanks Ev. Thanks everyone.

Today's conversation with Laura Hatley about using business as a form of activism fits under the P of Partnership.

Laura Hartley is an activist, writer and founder of Public LovEd (pronounced Public Love Ed), an online school empowering changemakers & forward-thinking entrepreneurs to radically reimagine the world, creating the conditions for social healing and collective thriving.

Laura's work centres around the three areas of transforming self, business and changemaking. She runs programs on healing burnout culture, business beyond capitalism & the inner work of dismantling capitalism and supremacy culture.

Laura lives and works on Gadigal land in Sydney, Australia but can frequently be found travelling the world.

In this episode, you'll learn about business as a form of activism as well as...

 

• The problem with capitalism
• If not this, then what? How can this new form of business look like?
• Laura's framework, The Business of Revolution
• Why business is political
• The difference between human-centered and life-centered
• How to approach the transition out of capitalism
• The importance of the inner work
• And so much more

Laura's Resources

 

Laura's Website

The Public Love Project Podcast

Download a free guide to Business Beyond Capitalism

Connect with Laura on:

LinkedIn

Facebook

Instagram

 

Sarah's Resources

Watch this episode on Youtube

(FREE) Sarah's One Page Marketing Plan

(FREE) Sarah Suggests Newsletter

(FREE) The Humane Business Manifesto

(FREE) Gentle Confidence Mini-Course

Marketing Like We're Human - Sarah's book

The Humane Marketing Circle

Authentic & Fair Pricing Mini-Course

Podcast Show Notes

We use Descript to edit our episodes and it's fantastic!

Email Sarah at [email protected]

Thanks for listening!

 

After you listen, check out Humane Business Manifesto, an invitation to belong to a movement of people who do business the humane and gentle way and disrupt the current marketing paradigm. You can download it for free at this page. There's no opt-in. Just an instant download.

Are you enjoying the podcast?  The Humane Marketing show is listener-supported—I'd love for you to become an active supporter of the show and join the Humane Marketing Circle. You will be invited to a private monthly Q&A call with me and fellow Humane Marketers -  a safe zone to hang out with like-minded conscious entrepreneurs and help each other build our business and grow our impact.  — I'd love for you to join us! Learn more at humane.marketing/circle

Don't forget to subscribe to the show on iTunes or on Android to get notified for all my future shows and why not sign up for my weekly(ish) "Sarah Suggests Saturdays", a round-up of best practices, tools I use, books I read, podcasts, and other resources.

Raise your hand and join the Humane Business Revolution.

Warmly,

Sarah

Imperfect Transcript of the show

We use and love Descript to edit our podcast and provide this free transcript of the episode. And yes, that's an affiliate link.

Sarah: [00:00:00] [00:01:00] [00:02:00] [00:03:00] [00:04:00] Hi, Laura. It's so good to speak to you today. I'm so excited for our conversation. 

Laura: Oh, thank you. So am I, I'm so excited to be here, so thank you for having me on the show. 

Sarah: Yeah, thanks. It's, it's good. We've had a couple of exchanges already, first on LinkedIn where we met, and then I attended your workshop, and then we're like, Oh, we gotta talk about this more.

So now you're here and yeah, super excited to talk about business as a form of activism. [00:05:00] So as you know, Kind of organizing the conversations on this podcast around the seven Ps of humane marketing. And I was thinking, well, where does does fit? And to me it really kind of fit under the p for partnership.

, in a way we're almost like partnering with activism. We're also partnering, you know, with our clients, but. In a bigger way, we're partnering kind of with our future and, you know, the future paradigm of business. So that's where I felt like it fits best. What do you think about that? Pick? How, how does that sound?

Laura: I actually think it's perfect. You know, it is, It's partnering with our future. It's partnering with life, with a different world, with the vision that we want to see born. So I think partnership was the perfect p to put this. 

Sarah: Nice. Great. All right, so, we're talking about business as activism. I know, you also talk a lot about, you know, the, postcapitalism world, right?

Like that's, that's really what [00:06:00] we're. Talking about here is like, there's something wrong with the way we do business now. And let's face it, the way we do business now is after, is according to this model of capitalism. And, and I just kind of touch upon it in, in my, marketing, like we're human book. I don't go too much into it, but I would love for you, because you talk about this a lot, I would love for you to kind of tell us, well, you know, capitalism maybe served us for a certain amount of time.

Now there's definitely something probably wrong with that model, so take us through that. What's broken with capitalism the way we, , use it now. 

Laura: Oh gosh. I mean so many things, but I think to start, you know, this answer, it's really I wanna establish a business and capitalism and not the same thing.

They're actually two very different things. You know, business is just a form of trade of goods or services, and it's existed for. Thousands of years, right? [00:07:00] It predated capitalism and it will exist after capitalism as well. So business itself is a bit different. Capitalism is the way that we organize wealth and commerce and you know, we tend to think that it's the, just the way the world works or it's the best system we've come up with.

But capitalism's only about 500 years. And there are kind of three fundamental problems with capitalism. One is it's based on the pursuit of infinite growth on a finite planet. It's why it is the leading driver of the climate crisis. It's why we have this problem with extractivism with biodiversity loss.

The second is the artificial production of scarcity. So capitalism is reliant on scarcity. It is scarcity that drives the growth. And you see that scarcity in a lot of different ways. You see it in marketing, You see it in planned obsolescence where we design products not to last. They're deliberately designed to die in order for us to buy more, and therefore we need to extract more, to have [00:08:00] more. And of course the third problem is the devaluation of complex living systems to lifeless resources.

You know, forests, oceans, these beautiful, incredible natural world that we live in. Only has value when we can extract something from it. Mm-hmm. , even if that is tourism, it's still a way that humans can use it and therefore it has value as opposed to having an intrinsic right to have value in and of itself.

So these three kind of principles of pursuit of infinite growth, you know, this artificial requirement and production of scar. You know, we're not talking real scarcity here. We're saying scarcity is embedded into the system in order for it to perpetuate. And the devaluation of complex living systems, the devaluation of our living world, is really what leads us to the crises that we see today.

So what leads to the climate crisis? The loss of wildlife that we face, and in other forms as well, it perpetuates racial injustice and it perpetuates increasing wealth inequity. [00:09:00] Hmm. So capitalism. Has served us to a point, but we really need to look to go beyond it if we want to create a more beautiful world and if we wanna solve some of the challenges that we're facing as a speciess.

Sarah: Yeah. Oh my God. Yeah. There's so much in here. sounds like, okay, 1, 2, 3, but. Yeah, there is a lot, , in here that obviously, like you say, 500 years ago, those didn't seem like problems, right? We had no idea that eventually this growth, , oriented attitude would lead to certain problems. We were just like, Yeah.

Oblivious to what was coming. But I would say probably even 50 years ago now, we were already, or at least a scientific, , kind of people, they were seeing that, okay, that this is gonna end so, , and, and yet not much was done. But as a marketer and as a kind of marketing [00:10:00] oriented podcast, obviously what really, , speaks to me and, and you know, that, that we have so much things that are aligned There is the second one, The scarcity cuz , yeah, that's, that's the one where, you know, I was also seeing, oh my God, there's something just so wrong with marketing and already we were starting to talk about using business for good and yet, , We didn't look at the marketing piece, that if we do business for good, we can't also still use, , you know, the marketing with the scarcity approach.

We still, we also need to change that conversation. So, , yeah, for, for me, , when I started looking at, you know, a marketing revolution, it really, this word, , Anxiety came up so many times in the conversations that people felt marketing gave them anxiety or being the marketer gave them anxiety and, and I believe it had to do with the scarcity, right?

Feeling that we are living in scarcity gives us anxiety. Would you agree to that? [00:11:00] 

Laura: Oh, absolutely. I mean, I think that's kind of the point of it. Mm-hmm. Is, you know, when we sell from scarcity is we're actually activating a person's flight or freeze response. Yeah. You know, that kind of panic decision to go, Oh my gosh, there's something wrong.

I need to make a decision. If I don't take it like right now, I'm gonna miss out. And then if I miss out, What's gonna happen? You know, we, we insinuate these feelings like, You won't belong, you won't fit in. This is a one time offer. You won't be able to build your business as much. You're not gonna be able to enjoy this product.

You won't be as cool, whatever it will be. You know, there are intended consequences that. We don't explicitly say, but are kind of underlying that scarcity tactic. Mm. And so whether it is simply countdown timers or you know, this real like by now there's only two seats left type thing, you know, this artificial and very often, , completely false scarcity that we could try to sell.

Is creating this [00:12:00] constant stress and survival response within us. Mm. And of course, if we're then taking that into actually wanting a more beautiful world, none of us are making our best decisions when we're stressed. No. Like when we're in this state of being panicked and anxious. Yeah, we're making poor decisions from that 

Sarah: place.

Yeah. Because we, we feel like we can't have the energy to look out for future generations or, or even just, you know, other people. We just feel like, Oh, there's not enough for ourselves. So first we need to feel safe ourselves, which is normal. I like totally understandable as well. But like you say, some of the scarcity is actually.

Created. It's false. And if we do not always think, Oh, I have to get more and more and more, and kind of live outside of our maybe, comfort zone or, or, you know, realistic, , living what we actually need, then, then yeah, we're in this cons, constant tussle. Oh yeah. So [00:13:00] much. , agree with what you said.

Okay. So we know that this is the state of things right now, so I'm curious to hear how you envision a new type of business. So the postcapitalism business, how does that look like? Paint the picture for us. 

Laura: You know, I think the beauty of post-capitalism is that it's not actually born yet. We're kind of co-creating it together.

Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. . So when people talk about going beyond capitalism, I wanna establish first as well, most people automatically talk about conscious capitalism as the alternative. Mm-hmm. and conscious capitalism. Obviously we had the kind of triple bottom line of like people, planet profit, and it seems like a great alternative to capitalism, but conscious capital.

Has kind of added in some values. It's added in like some justice, like we need to care about people, we need to care about the earth. But it hasn't really dealt with the actual issue of looking for infinite growth [00:14:00] and it hasn't dealt with the issue of, , embedded scarcity within the system. It's perhaps dealt with the third issue.

It's actually given some value to living systems. So, but it hasn't dealt with the other. Right. So when we're looking to go into post-capitalism, we're looking to kind of create an all new system together, you know, and this is something that's going to arise out of this time. Now, as entrepreneurs, this can mean a lot of different things for us, but really I think it's coming back to the values.

Of our business and how we want to embody those values in every area, in our operations, in our marketing, in our sales, in our strategy, and to really bring them to life. So, you know, the first thing that I've mentioned here is this need for infinite growth that we see on the collective scale. And most of us have internalized this as well, to a degree, the sense that there's never enough.

There's never enough time [00:15:00] that I'm never good enough that we end up internalizing perfectionism in the same way that, you know, I'm not quite there yet. It needs to be a little bit better. Where the sense that my business needs to grow faster, it needs to grow bigger. You know, I haven't got enough clients yet, and what we lost in this is this ability to know what it feels like to be satisfied, you know, to feel satiated, to feel enough.

Right. And so when I'm looking at post capitalist business, it's not saying that growth doesn't have a place, It's not saying that we should all be struggling, that we shouldn't be earning money cause we should, you know, we need to support ourselves. We deserve to live flourishing, abundant lives. But it also means understanding what this feeling of enoughness is.

Like, what actually feels good to us? What is the actual vision of the business that we want? And then how do we start to look at some of these other principles like abundance, like justice, like regeneration, and embedding them into all that we do. 

Sarah: I think once you [00:16:00] feel that you are enough and you have enough, then you actually get time to look at the other stuff, right?

Which you can't, , if you're still struggling with de gotta get more clients and gotta grow and gotta scale and whatnot, then you just, your focus is not on, the other two things. I talk about. You are enough also in the marketing, like we're human bug. And it's, it starts in a way with the definition of success.

I think that's where a big, problem lies as well, is like, how do we define success? Because if we never take the time to define it for ourselves, we're chasing after everybody else's definition of success, which, you know, is what we are fed. That it's always more and more and more. , so it sounds to me like.

This new business, , as entrepreneurs, especially cuz that's who we we're talking to here is really starting with the, the inner work and starting there rather than always, you know, starting with [00:17:00] the business and who I am as the business owner. Uh, Do I hear that right? Yeah. 

Laura: Absolutely. I mean, oh, there's so many places I could go with this, but certainly in terms of success, you know, culturally we have such a narrow definition of success.

Like we generally define success as more or growth, and certainly we define it in terms of money. Right. But you know, and this isn't to say that money doesn't make us happy because actually a certain level does. Right. , but we can have a much wider definition of success, right? So I remember. I was really fortunate a number of years ago to visit Bhutan, this tiny country between India and China that's famous for its development philosophy called Gross National Happiness.

And you know, they measure the overall happiness of the nation as their primary determinant of success or wellbeing as opposed to countries like Australia where we primarily, , measure and value gdp, right? Or gross domestic product. And you know what I loved about [00:18:00] their model? Was, there were so many, layers and complexities to it, but also so many ideas which we could actually transfer into business.

Mm-hmm. into redefining success for us entrepreneurs. You know, let's take time. Use as an example. You know, are we just using our days to fill the nine to five or you know, eight to six much more often or even longer, Or are we doing it to break free? You know, are we still feeling or experiencing that sense of time?

Scar. Can we measure success through our health, You know, and how stressed we are, or how relaxed we are, or how relaxed our consumers or customers are when they interact with us, right? You know, we could also look at our working environment, how it makes us feel, or our contribution to the planet and the world around us.

So really. Taking the time as an entrepreneur, I think to redefine what success actually means to us and to give it a much more holistic picture. Mm-hmm. of things that actually contribute to our wellbeing is really important. [00:19:00] Yeah. And then of course this inner work comes with that. You can't redefine success and actually understand what it means to you unless you're able to kind of stop and be with yourself for a moment and understand what is most important to you.

Sarah: Yeah. And you brought up something that really was also a big aha in my, Personal development journey is this correlation between time and money. You know, you feel like, okay, finally you've dealt with your money story and you kind of detached yourself from this, tight hold on, on the money stuff.

And then you realize, Hold on a minute, , I have the same kind of scarcity approach to time as I did to money. Because obviously also there's the saying time is money and all of that, right? and so, I feel like the new business paradigm also values time much more than or to an equal amount, at least as money.

and really looking at how do we want to spend our time? And I, we [00:20:00] see that already post pandemic, right? People are like, Well, I don't want to commute two hours anymore. I'd rather spend that time with my family. So time has really gotten a new, Yeah, a new weight in terms of the values that , we, you know, prioritize.

So I think this idea of figuring out how do you approach time? Are you still always hustling? and usually yeah, it's linked to money because you wanna. Use your time more efficiently in order to make more money. Right. It's just, 

Laura: it's crazy. It's linked to money, but it's also something that I think that I refer to as internalized capitalism.

You know, internalized capitalism is the equation of our worth with our productivity, with what we produce. So it's not just about getting more money, it's, it's when we feel guilty, when we. Yeah. It's when we go into work, even when we're sick. Yeah. It's that sense of, you know, we've got a lot to power through in this meeting.

We're just gonna squeeze a little bit more in mm-hmm. , [00:21:00] or, you know, I'm gonna like make this phone call while I'm on my run, while I'm like cooking dinner in the microwave or whatever it is. This feeling that there's just not enough time. Mm-hmm. , and it's partly because, you know, We have internalized the cultural systems around us to such a degree that says if I'm not doing enough, if I am not maximizing my time, if I'm not making every ounce of this, you know, which is scarce because everything is scarce.

Then I'm not worthy. Right. Then I'm not good enough. Yeah. And so there's a lot of that kind of steeped into it as well. 

Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. So good. , let's talk about the transition because you know, as people are listening, they're, they're like, Yeah, that sounds great. You know, Yes, I wanna be feeling more, , at ease and relaxed about my business.

And, but how do I make the transition and. I just feel like I'm not there yet, but I'm definitely on a good pass. I feel like , I, you know, I block time now [00:22:00] for, , walks outside, like every day I have an hour, , going for walks either with a dog or with friends. I make that my priority before any kind of business stuff.

And, and I do my yoga, so things that matter to me and that I know they're, , Things that matter, , you know, 10 years from now. So it's, it's kind of this longer vision rather than just, you know, what do I do today in order to make my business grow? So, , and yet I do have that, I feel like this internalized capitalism because as a Gen Xer, That's just how we grew up with, right, How we grew up.

It's like all these things that we hear in our head and it feels, it feels very challenging to want to do things differently when. Every where you look, people are still talking. You know, the old talk about scaling and hustling and you know, maybe, maybe in the corporate [00:23:00] world there's a bit less of that because you still get paid if you don't, you know, if you don't commute or whatever.

But has entrepreneurs, Well, it's still about, you know, how do I make a living and how do I make enough so I feel like. It would be interesting for you, you to share also, how do you take care of yourself while going through this transition knowing that we're not there yet, and so you are probably gonna be one of the few who thinks like that.

I think that's the point I'm trying to make because believe me, I feel alone a lot of times when I feel like my week is really easy and I don't. You know, a lot of work and I give myself time to grow the circle, for example, and I feel. Am I doing this right? You know, who, who, who else is out there? Who does it like, like I wanna do it.

Laura: Oh, you know, I so get that , few weeks ago, I think I decided to kind of just take a step back from launching anything. I was a bit [00:24:00] overwhelmed. I had a lot happening in my personal life. I wasn't ready with the materials like I wanted to be.

And I'll say, Okay, no, like just pause. Take the time. You know, I'm very privileged and fortunate that I was in a position that I didn't have to make money right then and there. You know, that may have been a different story, right? But of course then in taking this time, then this is Pushful of, am I doing enough?

You know, am I doing this the way that I should? Because like everything out there says that I need to be doing this now. Mm-hmm. , you know, but there's a part of me that's going, No, it's actually. Everything has a season, everything has a time. And to trust that, Yeah, So there is so many different practices I think in, in taking care of ourselves throughout this, but for me, I think it's about returning back to my body, to what it's really feeling, what it's offering, what its energy level is.

Because so often, We override our body. You know, when our body needs rest or it needs pleasure, or it [00:25:00] needs stimulation, or whatever it is. And we go, No, I've gotta work. No, I've gotta do this. I've gotta send this email, I've gotta launch this course. I've gotta put this out into the world. And when we do this, when we override our body enough, when we're so disconnected from it, then we really lead to a state of burnout very easily.

Mm-hmm. . So coming back to. What am I really feeling? What is true for me in this moment? And then what do I ac? What are my desires right now? What am I callings right now? And so, yes, I need discipline. Yes, I need structure. These are important things that every entrepreneur needs, but also a little bit of trust of ourselves and trust that there is a.

And if it is not the time now, that it will be the time at some point that you need to be ready for that. Right. And you need to trust that you'll know when it is. Mm-hmm. . 

Sarah: Yeah. It really sounds like, , this balance between the being and the doing that I talk a lot about on the podcast, you know, this yin and yang, all of this, and.

And if you are [00:26:00] struggling in your mind, which we often do when we're thinking about growth and those things, then it's time to come back to the yin, which in what you said is the body, and you know, just the energy and, and give the mind and break and say, Yeah, I know you want to, you know, grow or whatever, but right now we need to focus on on other things.

Yeah. This is so good. 

Laura: Yeah. I wish there was some nice easy answer for so much of this. Like, you know, you just like, tick this box or like, you know, you take this pill or press X button, whatever it is. Like it doesn't exist. It is this nuanced kind of place between the being and the doing that is like the perfect description.

Sarah: Yeah. Do you feel like though, I mean you already are younger than I am, and do you feel like the new generations. It will come easier for them because maybe already they see more people doing it in a different way. 

Laura: [00:27:00] I want to say yes. , yes and no. I think it really depends on, The environment in which you have for young people been raised in and what they're coming out of.

Mm-hmm. , You know, I think for the younger generations there is already an inherent distrust of the system and a desire to do things differently, and I think that is really powerful. And then it will be how, and I know some amazing young people who are already doing this, but how they choose to challenge those systems, right?

It's very easy still to kind of fall into. A, or resistance to systems, or as opposed to, Okay, let's actually build something new. Right? And so my hope for the generation younger than me and also for my own, is that we continue to build something new that we do both. That's a place for resistance, and there is a place for trialing and prototyping and experimenting with a new way to do business and a new form of entrepre.

Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. I think this is a good segue into your business of Rev [00:28:00] Revolution. So I talk about the Humane marketing revolution. You talk about the revolution, , for business itself, and you have this framework also with the six leaves. Maybe just quickly, , cuz we don't have that much time left, but quickly give us the different leaves and then I wanna dive into the one about choosing life and human centered versus life centered.

But give us the tour of the six pillars. 

Laura: Yeah. So I run a program called Business for the Revolution, and this is really. I hesitate to use the word anti-capitalist, but it's really about exploring what it is for entrepreneurs and solo entrepreneurs to explore business beyond capitalism using feminist principles and anti-oppressive principles.

So there's six pillars upon which the work is based, which is really about using abundance over scarcity. So really looking at what it would mean to feel like there's enough. To know that there's enough and to really market and sell at the speed of trust and relationality. The [00:29:00] second is understanding that everything is relational.

Everything is connected. You know, there's so many sayings like it's business not personal, and you know, the ends justify the means, or, you know, it's, it's not, it's not real. It's just what I do here, or leave your personal life at the door, whatever it might be. But recognizing that actually business is an extension of us.

It is just another ways we're relating to one another. So understanding everything is relational and we need to come back to everything is connected. Now, the third that you mentioned is choose life. You know, in an age of ecological breakdown, which we are in, it is not enough to be sustainable, like sustainability is too often about maintaining the status quo.

We need to be actively regenerating both the earth and our culture. So really exploring this idea of a regenerative culture. Right. The fourth principle is dream deeper. You know that we need to embed our vision, our values, and [00:30:00] our vocation. Those callings into everything that we do. We need to really reimagine the world and then reimagine how we want our business to serve a more beautiful world.

So we're kind of widening the scope of what we're trying to picture. Fifth principle is that business is political. , for too long business has upheld and perpetuated, , racism, white supremacy, injustice. It still does, Capitalism does, and a lot of global business does where, where more disconnected from it than perhaps we used to be, but it still exists.

So understanding that business is political and that we need to be conscious of how we're embed. Anti oppressive and feminist principles into what we do. Mm-hmm. . And the sixth and final principle is about wide streams of value. So Edward Abbey once said that growth for the sake of growth is the ideology of the cancer cell.

And you know, I love that because when you think about the natural world, the only thing that grows with [00:31:00] that end is cancer until it kills itself. Mm-hmm. . So what we. Looking defined with this principle is really redefining success away from growth. What are our wide streams of value over our tall mountains of growth?

So these six principles are really about reimagining how we do business and how we want to show up in our business. It's about embedding these values into our strategy, into our operations, into our marketing, into our sales, into every aspect. So it's no longer about just what we sell or what we do or what we're offering to customers, but the way in which we run the business.

Sarah: Mm. Yeah. I just love that so much, really, resonated with me. And on that workshop we, I was on, I was like, Yep. I gotta talk to you, Laura, and have her on my podcast and, and I learned a lot more having this conversation, so thank you so much. One of the concepts that I also kind of had a big aha around was this idea of [00:32:00] human centered versus life centered, right?

, human centered is a term that. Myself and other people in business marketers, , have been using a lot, these past years. And it kind of almost got like, you know, like authentic. It became this buzzword. Oh, if you say human centered, then, then that means you're, you're getting it. And, and so when you, , said, Well, actually we need to extend it to life centered, it really kind of blew my mind a little bit.

I. Wait a minute, I thought I'd been having it right. All this, all this time, and now here you are expanding my thinking and saying, Yeah, human centered is good, but let's extend it to life. So maybe just talk to us a little bit about the difference in what life centered really means and how, how that looks like in, in the marketing world, for example.

Laura: So for me with this point, I think I was speaking about, you know, when we're [00:33:00] talking about the ideology of how capitalism shows up in business, is that it's very human and and human centered. And when we're looking to go beyond capitalism, what would look different? And we're like, well, actually it would just be life centered.

And really what this was about was breaking down the binary that there is a difference between humans and the planet or humans in the natural world. Mm-hmm. as if somehow what is good for humans might be good for the planet, it might not be. Or you know, what's good for the planet probably won't be good for humans and vice versa.

They're not. We are of the natural world. We are the natural world. We are intrinsically linked. Right. When we're looking as well at these deeper mindsets that actually influence capitalism that have led to the climate crisis and some of the struggles that we are facing today. So much of that comes from a place of separation or a place of domination that humans are somehow separate from everything else and that humans are somehow.

Better than or above. And you know this principle, [00:34:00] it's not about being all airy fairy and like, Oh, we need to just, you know, like save every dolphin. We should all be vegans, or whatever it is. It's really just about widening the sphere of value to go beyond the human and to look at the essence of life, you know, the essence of life that animates all living things on this planet and to understand.

Where there might be value for that. Now you can apply this really looking at regenerative culture into our supply chains, you know, and what is happening at the ends of the supply chain that perhaps we don't see, you know, really examining every end in our marketing. I actually am very curious to hear from you, cause I think you are the expert here around what it might mean to have a life centered approach.

Yeah. 

Sarah: Actually, I'd love to hear from you on that. Mm-hmm. . Yes. So to me, really. I think it, it's a, a different stage, , and maybe, you know, depends on where people [00:35:00] are in their journey. Coming to human centered is the first stage in some kind of development, right? Maybe they have been just. Focused on growth and numbers and scaling and money making.

And so coming back to human centered, I feel like that's the first stage maybe in this personal development and kind of seeing the bigger picture. And yet, and once you, you know, got that and you're like, Yes, human connections are important, I think then you are ready to go to the next stage and say, We might have a very limited time here on Earth.

It's not enough anymore to just talk about human connections. We really need to extend it. And to me, that brings in this idea of the triple bottom line and doing marketing in a way that involves, yes, our human relations, but then also the win for the planet. And so really, using. [00:36:00] What I talk a lot about in humane marketing is our worldview in our marketing.

And that worldview has to do not just with the humans making doing business, but also, , you know, what do we stand for, , in terms of our values and how do we plan to, save this planet somehow. So I feel like it's. a third stage of getting more connected and seeing business as having a role to play in the whole sustainability piece, Right?

So, 

Laura: human flourishing is tied to ecological, flourishing, Right? You know, this idea that we can flourish when the earth is not, or that we can just go to another planet is, you know, It's not accurate. Yeah. It's part it. It will catch up with us. Yeah.

And so it's really bringing it back to, Okay, well actually you're right. As business owners, I think we have a tremendous source of power. Even those of us who are solar printers, like you don't have major global [00:37:00] Fortune 500 companies. I don't think they can lead the way to change because they're too stuck in the old paradigm.

Yeah. But when you're looking at small businesses and how we can pivot and how we can use our values and. And embed this idea of regeneration, of embedding life, giving principles into all that we do. So into physical products, into supply chains, into materials, but into our communities, into our cultures, into our interactions is so important.

I love that definition and I agree it's this kind of next stage of looking at it beyond the human. Yeah. 

Sarah: The other thing that comes up for me is also what we previously discussed of, you know, seeing the new definition of business post-capitalism. , about something that is holistic and it includes our whole life , and how do we want to create this life, and make it life centered and not just maybe business centered or money centered.

So to me [00:38:00] it's also this idea of life centered means we want to create a sustainable life for us ourselves without burnout. So beyond the sustainability piece, which is important. I also feel like life centered means well, let's create a life that we can sustain and, and that we enjoy living rather than, you know, going into that hustle mode and, and always making more and more and more.

Laura: Yeah, I think it's about flourishing. Mm-hmm. , you know, it's about thriving. Yeah. And too often we don't think of that in our society or in business. You know, we kind of focus on like just getting by or like just being good enough, you know? You know, How are you? , 

Sarah: good. I'm busy. You know, Instead of Yeah.

Laura: Yeah. But instead we could be flourishing. We could be thriving, and. Shouldn't we, You know, why not design our lives and design our business to promote human, our own and ecological [00:39:00] flourishing, You know, so they're all live around us. And this doesn't mean you need to be out there working with dolphins or whatever else.

No. Yeah. But the essence of what you're doing is embodying the principle. Yeah. And that I think is where the change comes 

Sarah: from. Yeah. I. I'm so glad you brought up the, the busy answer cuz that's when I notice my internal capitalism every time somebody, you know tells me, Oh, I'm busy, I'm. I don't know. I'm not that busy , so am I doing something wrong that I'm not that busy, but I just, yeah.

I'm not buying into the busy stuff anymore. I'm like, I don't wanna be busy. And even if I'm, you know, working on something that I wanna really get out, then I don't call it busy. I guess I just. College. Yeah. I'm working on something that gives me great joy. I just feel like busy now has a bad after paste

Laura: Yeah. You know, this idea, we need to stop the glorification of busy. Yeah. Because again, but it's that link to the fact [00:40:00] that we're always, well, if we're busy, we're doing more, where we're keeping up, we're doing enough. Like, so that sense of scarcity underlying. Busy is really important to notice. 

Sarah: Yeah. Yeah.

I know we could keep going and we're, we're having a real fun here, but, , I think we need to start wrapping it up, but this has been amazing. Thank you so much for coming on the Humane Marketing Podcast. Please do share, with people where they can find out more about you, your work, your program.

Laura: , yes. So you can go to my website. My school is called Public Love Enterprises. So Public Love Do Enterprises. You can find me on Instagram at Laura Do H dot Hartley. I'm also on LinkedIn and Facebook. So please check us out. Google. Laura Hartley, Public love, public love enterprises, and I look forward to, , Working with you further and getting to know your guests and thank you to everyone who is listening.

Sarah: Yeah, thanks Laura. I have one last question. , what are you grateful for today or this week? What comes up?

Laura: I'm grateful [00:41:00] for my partner. I have an incredibly supportive partner who always brings me back to myself when I start to go somewhere else. Nice. And so she's who I'm grateful for. 

Sarah: Nice. Wonderful. Thank you so much for sharing and for being here. Thank you.[00:42:00] 

Today's conversation fits under the P of Pricing of the Humane Marketing Mandala. I've invited Lindsay Bryan-Podvin, a trained therapist, to talk to us about what imposter syndrome does to your prices and how you can create a pricing strategy that is sustainable.

Lindsay Bryan-Podvin (she/her) is a biracial financial therapist, podcast host, speaker, and author of the book "The Financial Anxiety Solution." In her coaching practice, she helps therapists in social justice or of marginalized identities grow their profitable practices from the inside out; so they can stop feeling icky about money, and start setting and sticking to sustainable rates that allow them to grow their businesses in alignment with their values. She lives with her partner and their dog on the occupied land of the Fox, Peoria, Potawatomi, and Anishinabewaki peoples also known as Michigan. 

In this episode, you'll learn about pricing what imposter syndrome does to your prices as well as...

 

• What Imposter Syndrome means and whether it is a clinical term
• What IS has to do with Pricing
• Confidence and self-trust
• High ticket pricing and Lindsay's take on this practice
• The current situation and what we can do about it
• And so much more

Lindsay's Resources

 

Lindsay's Website

The Mind Money Balance Podcast

Money Archetype Quiz

Connect with Lindsay on:

LinkedIn

Instagram

YouTube

 

Sarah's Resources

Watch this episode on Youtube

(FREE) Sarah's One Page Marketing Plan

(FREE) Sarah Suggests Newsletter

(FREE) The Humane Business Manifesto

(FREE) Gentle Confidence Mini-Course

Marketing Like We're Human - Sarah's book

The Humane Marketing Circle

Authentic & Fair Pricing Mini-Course

Podcast Show Notes

We use Descript to edit our episodes and it's fantastic!

Email Sarah at [email protected]

Thanks for listening!

 

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Sarah: [00:00:00] [00:01:00] [00:02:00] [00:03:00] [00:04:00] [00:05:00] Hi Lindsay, so we're looking forward to you talking to you today. I'm so excited. Yes, 

Lindsay: Yes. Same here. Sarah, I'm, I'm really excited for this chat and I think it'll be great for your listeners to learn a little bit more about what we're gonna be 

Sarah: covering. Yeah, exactly. We decided to [00:06:00] talk about pricing. And the imposter syndrome.

And I just wanna say that, you know, I get a lot of pitches. Maybe you do too because you have your own podcast, but, , you know, there's about a handful probably, in a year I would even say that. I was just like, Oh yeah, this person I want to have on this show. And so you're one of those and I'm just, Yeah.

So, so happy to have you. So, but let's dive in. Yeah. So this topic. Actually you suggested, to talk about, you know, pricing, which is one of my PS of the Humane Marketing Mandala, but then also kind of juxtaposing it with, , the imposter syndrome. So I think there's a lot that we can cover there. But, let's start maybe with a definition, because you are a trained therapist and I was just wondering if.

Term imposter syndrome. You know, we throw this around so often, especially in the entrepreneurship, , era, and, [00:07:00] and I was like, Well, is this even like a medical term? I don't know. Or is this just kind of the thing that we. We say and and, and, yeah. I would love for you to start by defining it and what that actually means.

Lindsay: Sure. So imposter syndrome can be defined many ways because it is not a clinical diagnosis. It does not fall into the DSM for folks who are in the Northern Hemisphere. That is really what we use when we are diagnosing clients or patients. , but imposter syndrome is this feeling or. Set of thoughts that a person experiences when they don't feel enough, and that can often look like in work context or business context, like this idea that they somehow got their success by mistake or it was a fluke, or they really are putting on a good veneer, but underneath they aren't as smart as other people think they are.

They don't know as much they're going to be found out somehow as being a fraud or fraudulent. When we experience that set of [00:08:00] symptoms or those set of feelings and thoughts, it can make us question our own inherent knowledge and also the wisdom and knowledge we've gained over time. It can make us think that we don't really know as much as we say we know, and it can lead to chasing more external validation.

And so an entrepreneurs this often looks like taking more online courses, taking another certificate. Paying for things that maybe you don't really need, right? So paying for, , maybe a costly mastermind or upgrading your website and getting all these, these funnels and clicks and countdown timers that maybe you don't really need.

Because there's this idea that if I have these other systems in place, or if I have somebody else's stamp of approval, then I'll finally be enough. And what we know about imposter syndrome is. It's not about external validation. It's about inner wisdom and inner knowing and inner trusting. And when it comes to being business owners, that's [00:09:00] where the real work begins of getting comfortable saying, I am enough.

I do know enough. I am competent at helping the clients that I'm meant to serve, or I am competent in selling the products that I know are good and authentic and 

Sarah: hopeful. Yeah. Yeah, that's, It always comes back to the inner work, doesn't it? , Right, Right. Absolutely. Um, thank you. That was really helpful. I wonder then, you know, because we placed this conversation under the PPF pricing, let's go into that.

So how does having imposter syndrome, , how's that related to pricing? Where does it show. 

Lindsay: The way that I see it show up most commonly is in under pricing. And because if we have this inner doubt that we aren't good enough or smart enough, or can't help enough people, by default, we price our services lower.

Mm-hmm. instead of a sustainable pricing model, we undercharge we under [00:10:00] price and we undervalue our services. And that is where a lot of. Online business owners get into trouble because they slide their prices down so low again, to try and get that external validation. If I have my price low, then I'll get more clients and, and we're chasing again that external validation that we know enough.

, and so when it comes to under pricing, we end up. Actually harming ourselves and creating a bigger imposter syndrome cycle. And what I mean by that is if I price my services so low, that means I need to sell more products, more goods, more services. And that means that I'm stretching myself really thin.

And if I'm stretching myself really thin, I probably don't have the time to practice that restorative self care that we all need. I'm probably not getting enough sleep, not drinking enough water, not moving my body enough, not engaging in hobbies. Side of work and when we are operating kind of stretched thin, our minds [00:11:00] and our bodies aren't able to think rooted and think

in terms of our wisest self. And when we are stressed out, when we are, you know, afraid, our nervous system is afraid, then we go, Oh my gosh, I really don't know enough and I need to take on more. And it's just adding more and more to our plates and sinking us further down. And the lower we get, the more we think we don't know.

And it becomes this really vicious cycle versus pricing for sustainability. Maybe a word that resonates more with your, , listeners, or a word that often is used instead of sustainability is profitability. But that's this idea that in order for us to have sustainable businesses, we need to have not just enough to make ends meet, we have to have enough to be able to pour into ourselves, to be able to pour into our communities and to be able to pour into our businesses.

Because if we are operating. From a afraid space and from a frantic space that actually harms our business in the long run. And it actually harms our [00:12:00] clients in the long run because they're not getting the best of us. They're getting this anxious, afraid, imposter syndrome version of us, and then we're not delivering on what we know we are able to deliver.

Hmm. 

Sarah: Yeah. So good. So good. It's, , interesting. I, I was just typing out an email, , that is gonna go out to my, , readers this weekend, and I was talking about my typical day, , and how, you know, how much rest I plan into my day and outside time and connection time, and, and then also saying, you know, Realize this is the typical day of a very, privileged white person.

And that not everybody has that privilege. But if we do have that privilege, then we're not helping anybody by working ourselves to deaths and, getting burned out and exhausted. Like, like you say, that self care. Well, we need to actually make it a priority. And, and I guess, , I see the correlation [00:13:00] here with pricing is like, well, if you have sustainable pricing, , then you can build in more, rest into your day, right?

Because when you actually do get paid, you don't feel like you have to work so much to. You know, just the minimum, Yeah, the minimum income in a way. So, yeah. Yeah, that really, that really resonates. Yeah. 

Lindsay: I, I want to just reflect back how, how thankful I am that you mentioned privilege and mentioned some of those things because I'm, I'm biracial, I'm a mixed person of color.

, and I think it goes even more. For folks who have marginalized identities, whether you are queer, trans, a person of color, of a religious minority, your immigration status is different. We actually have, , a duty to practice self care even more because we have all of these taxing systems of microaggressions, of racism, of [00:14:00] sexism, of homophobia coming at us all the time.

And our nervous systems actually need even more time for that space and for that rest, and for that joy too. So I really appreciate you bringing it up and saying, Oh, you know, This is a privileged position to be able to rest, and I want to gently push back and say, actually , it's mandatory. Mm-hmm. , it is so mandatory that we take that time for rest and growth and development outside of our work and how hard it is to do that.

 I just shared with my email newsletter. That, , about a year ago I hired somebody to help me just with the things that are I can do, but are not necessarily in my zone of genius. And what happened was, as I had additional spaciousness in my week, , I found myself just doing more work instead of going for walks, taking my dog to the park or anything like that.

Because this system is so designed for us to be working and be productive [00:15:00] and all of that, it's so hard to separate ourselves from that. Yeah. So knowing that it took me a while. I specifically put voice lessons on my calendar because I'm the type of person that if something's on my calendar, I will be there.

Mm-hmm. . So I had to like block out specific times for rest or specific times for joy and a specific time on my calendar where I was committed to somebody else. A little bit of that external accountability, but also it was something that has nothing to do with business, it has nothing to do with growing my practice.

It is all about kind of just engaging in that fun and that joy and that playfulness. So I really appreciate you bringing that piece. Yeah. 

Sarah: And I'm glad you're, you're stating how difficult it actually is, , because it is, and I was talking yesterday to someone who's older, you know, and, and for someone, you know, my generation, Gen X or even older, it is especially difficult.

And, and even more so if we love our job, you know, [00:16:00] if we actually do love our job. And so I was telling this guy, I'm like, I know you love your job, but think of, you know, who will be there for you. The end of your life, who is really gonna be, you know, valuable, , and counting, , at the end of your life.

And so those are the people that we need to hang out with, even though, yes, it's amazing to watch, you know, your client's transformation and whatnot, but, , yeah. It really is difficult. But let's go back to the, the pricing and the, Yeah. Actually one more term that I heard, , on Jonathan Fields, , podcast.

, I'm blanking on his, podcast. We'll put in the show notes. , but , this, idea of maximum sustainable generosity that really speaks to me to. My listeners, we are heart centered entrepreneurs, right? And so we do want to give a lot and, , this idea of, you know, pricing, raising our prices and, and where [00:17:00] is the limit and how much can we give before we ask?

, and so this term of maximum sustainable generosity really, really spoke to me because we need to define where that is for us. So that we can still give and feel good about ourselves, about giving, but it has to also be sustainable for us. And I think that concept, once you understand that, that's when you're gonna be ready to put boundaries and say, No, until here, I can give.

And then here are my boundaries. So I just wanted to bring that up again. , yeah, let's talk about pricing and. What do we do then when we, you know, we, Okay, we have this issue with, , imposter syndrome. How can we do this inner work and what do we need to do in order to be able to say, Okay, I'm ready to raise my prices.

Mm. 

Lindsay: Okay. So the, the three tiers that I use are sufficient. Leisurely and enoughness. Okay? And [00:18:00] sufficient is the bottom of this kind of tier or this pricing step where you are charging enough and your business is generating enough income to make sure that all of your needs are met.

And that means. Your business, but also your personal life. And when I say your needs are met, I'm not just talking about making sure you have enough money for fuel and for food. I'm also talking about making sure you have enough for that weekly yoga class or that monthly massage, whatever it is that helps you regulate your nervous system.

So that first step is sufficiency. Mm-hmm. . And then we move into leisurely. So the way that, that the imagery that comes to mind for. Is if you imagine a hot day, we're recording in the middle of the summer here. It is quite toasty and steamy outside today. So if we imagine sufficient is when you're at at a hot day and there's like an outdoor shower and you're cooling down and you have enough water to like rinse your body and to cool off, [00:19:00] and it is enough to regulate your temperature and to feel cool again.

Then if we imagine leisurely that's having like a pool, Available to you. You can kind of get in, you can sit on your little raft. You're very relaxed and you have more than enough. And when we have that more than enough, that's when we can start giving back to our communities. Whether that's by offering a sliding scale, offering scholarship spaces, donating money to causes in our community that are important to us, or volunteering in our community with causes that are important to us.

And then we imagine that next kind of tier. Is enoughness and that enoughness is whatever natural body of water comes to mind. It could be a river, it could be a lake. It could be a deep well, but it is, you have more than enough to regenerate your business. You have more than enough to pour into yourself, to pour into your communities.

But I often think what hap what happens with heart centered entrepreneurs [00:20:00] is they start giving back at that enoughness level before their business is supporting them at that sufficient level. So they're giving too much time, they're giving too much energy, they're sliding. Scale, they're underpricing their services, and then again, it gets back into that imposter syndrome, frantic cycle.

If I don't have enough, I need more. And then you are coming to potential clients from this place of desperation, from this place of anxiety, and from this place of underpricing. And when we think about justice and we think about equity, we have to include ourselves in that as well, which means we can't be martyrs for the system.

We have to say. I also deserve to have financial compensation that is more than enough, and I also have to be included in making sure that I can buy my groceries and take a holiday. Sleep at night. So those are the things that I kind of think about when we are pricing our services. So we, we need to first meet that first stair step or that kind of cold [00:21:00] shower by making sure that we have enough to take care of ourselves.

And then as we move up that scale, We can be increasing our pricing services, but we can also start giving back a little bit more. And the other analogy that gets used all the time that I think is worth repeating is that oxygen mask analogy. We cannot take care of others until we take care of ourselves.

And it's not about being selfish, it's about showing up and saying, I'm a part of this equation. I'm a part of my community too, and I also deserve to take care of myself financially. 

Sarah: Yeah. What came up for me while you were talking was this kind of trend of the high ticket client. Oh, 

Lindsay: yeah. for the podcast listeners.

That was a massive eye roll on my part, 

Sarah: so, yeah, that, that, I don't know if it's still out there because I just block everybody who's trying. You know, message me being a, a high thick, a client coach or anything like that. Yes. [00:22:00] So, So you're still seeing it out there 

Lindsay: now? Oh yeah. I'm still seeing that.

So I'm seeing, so I'm seeing two trends that I'm surprised still exists that I think are worth exploring for your heart centered entrepreneurs. So I'm seeing. On the one end, that high ticket offer where you are charging a client 30, 40, $50,000 for your goods service, coaching expertise, whatever. And the idea behind it is that, you know, our income is a math equation, and if I sell one trinket to somebody for $10, or if I sell one trinket to somebody for $10,000, I have to sell fewer of those $10,000 items.

To make, to meet my financial needs. Right. It, it makes sense from a financial perspective, right? But from a heart center and entrepreneur perspective, it's not just about selling the thing, it's also about delivering the thing. And are you capable? And you may be, and you may be sitting here listening, going, I am capable of that.

Are you capable of delivering a 30, 40, [00:23:00] $50,000 value to the clients that you. Saying that you are going to serve mm-hmm. , and that's a question only you can answer. , and I, I think we all have the capacity to probably charge more than we are. Without getting into that slimy, like trying to chase down somebody and, and ring of them.

When I say ring, I mean like a, like a towel ringing out a towel, like ringing of them all of their financial resources. I have heard horror stories of people and I'm sure we know of them. Where these high ticket coaches go after clients who are in desperate need of sustainability in their business, and they say if you just gimme $30,000, if you just gimme $50,000, I guarantee you'll be a seven figure business owner.

They are prey on people who are incredibly vulnerable and in the US. We have access to huge lines of credit that you don't have in the eu. So in the US you can really get into a lot of trouble. I have heard horror stories of [00:24:00] people taking out huge credit cards, , and racking up tons and tons of debt. I have heard of people reorging their houses to give these high ticket coaches their money only to be basically found out that they have been bamboozled and they end up in these kinds of situations where, The marketing was great, the promise was great, but the delivery was just the same as anything else.

video1642351392: I 

Sarah: just wanna add before you go into the other, , example. Yeah. So, so also from, , my own experience, I used to have a $7,000 offer. And from talking to a friend who had, you know, a $20,000 offer, I think the pressure it puts on you. As the entrepreneur to then basically chase after clients who are, who have that kind of money.

And of course we're not talking about companies, right? Right. We're talking here to about coaching for individuals and, and already $7,000 is, [00:25:00] is a high number. And so the pressure I felt, , to find clients who are willing to invest that amount. And then also the sense of failure if you are not making those sales, really, it's, it's just not worth it.

It really is just not worth it, so. Right. Yeah, I totally agree with you. It, I think though that that trend. Is coming to an end. We're living in way different times now, so. Mm-hmm. , there may be still high ticket coaches, but I'm not sure that they're doing so well right now. So I'm, 

Lindsay: yeah, I don't know, 

Sarah: like serving that.

Lindsay: Trend a bit closer. Yeah, it's interesting because what I find in the online world is that a lot of these things continue, but they're just repackaged. Like they're repackaged as like VIP days. And not to say there aren't ethical VIP days or really good VIP days, but I see these things kind of recycled.

So maybe the high ticket one year. Support [00:26:00] Mastermind isn't working anymore, but maybe a v i P day is, or maybe, you know, an expensive retreat is, and again, it's not that the thing is problematic. No. Whether it's a retreat or vip. Yes, exactly. It's everything behind it. , that I think we really just need to be cautious of and just curious.

And when I say curious, I mean like getting in tune again, we talked at the start of this, about the inner work, but getting curious if somebody's approaching you with that high ticket, you know, mindset stuff that feels in your body not settled. It makes you feel anxious, it makes you feel a little bit skeptical.

I think it's worth turning in with that curiosity. Do you just. What is here? Yeah. What is 

Sarah: coming up? Signals 

Lindsay: telling me. Yes. Yes. And I think with a lot of that, like high ticket mindset coaching, they tell you to not trust your nervous system. Mm. They say, Oh, no, no, no. You have to jump in. A net will appear.

You have to [00:27:00] just trust me. That's a mindset issue. You're in scarcity right now. Mm-hmm. . And it's like, no, your body is pretty freaking wise and it's really good at telling you something is amis. Yeah, and if I am really meant to work with this person, or work with this coach or join this program, I might have some of that anxious excitement, but I won't have fear.

And I think we have to start trusting ourselves a bit more in online business, which again comes back to imposter syndrome. If we feel like we don't know enough or we need somebody else to validate our opinions, we will push aside our nervous systems signals and join because we don't trust ourselves.

Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So the second example you wanted to share. Yeah, 

Lindsay: so the second example is on the other end of the scale of, you know, we've got these high ticket offers and then we have like super, super, super low ticket offers that. Can also cause a lot of overwhelm. And the way that I've seen them in the [00:28:00] past few years is like the, , the free summits or the free, , master classes, things like that where you join, and then you're bombarded with a lot of information.

It's the same thing. You get 10 minutes of information on marketing, 10 minutes of information on sales, 10 minutes of information on a website, and you leave and your nervous system is so over. Stimulated because you've spent two days sitting in all these like mini master classes kind of drinking from a fire hose, and then your brain and body is so overwhelmed.

And then again, you're getting into this imposter syndrome of, well, I don't know enough about sales or marketing or websites or SEO or Facebook or TikTok, so I need all these 10 different experts guidance, and now I need to join all 10 of their programs. Right? Right. And it's again, just like having some inner wisdom to.

Okay. What is really going on in my. . Actually, I am really struggling with the marketing piece. I know my product is good. I [00:29:00] know my coaching is amazing. I know that all of that is good, like the delivery side of things are really good, but maybe I do need some help showing up visibly and showing up authentically and getting out of my comfort zone there.

And maybe there is one person at that summit who has that wisdom to impart on you, but do you need all 10 of those programs? The answers probably. Yeah, and so getting really curious, and this is where getting to know your numbers becomes really powerful. Because if you're following your numbers every month, which I recommend everybody do, is to have a CEO date or a money date and take a look at Where is my money coming from?

What am I spending my money on, and also where are my clients coming from? Then you can make informed decisions about your business. You can follow those numbers and you can get to know where are the leaks or where are the holes that need patching in my business? And you can make decisions. From an informed and from a grounded place.

And you can say, [00:30:00] Actually, it does make sense for me to invest in a marketing coach right now, but it doesn't actually make sense for me to hire a TikTok coach if I haven't even downloaded the app. Right. . Like we just have to think really curiously and compassionately about what we actually need and then we can invest accordingly so long as we have that money available.

Hmm. Yeah. I love how 

Sarah: you. Talk about pricing, but we're also talking about investing in a way, You know, it's like it all goes together. It's like, well, it all goes together. If you do increase your prices and you're paid more fairly, then you'll also have more money available to invest back into your business if that's what you want.

, right. But again, that doesn't mean that you have. Buy every program out there. It just really neat. No, what I hear you say, and I totally agree with that, is giving power back to the client. I talk a lot about that. It's like, yes, we have been treating our clients as if they were stupid. You know, like telling [00:31:00] them things, talking to them as, as if they were little children.

Right. And so, , In a way as clients, as customers, we also started to give our power away and kind of become sheep by talking the marketing, like we're human bug. I talk about, you know, sheep and we've just kind of been following along, and it's time to take that power back and think for ourselves, what do I really need?

Is this a good thing for my business right now? So, yeah, absolutely. Mm. Really appreciate that. Mm-hmm. . So in terms of the. You know, we talked a little bit about the high ticket client. Another thing that comes to mind is, is the current situation with inflation. And, you know, everything that's going on in the world.

, How do we react to this? Like, it could be that we're just kind of completely frozen and think, Oh, I'm gonna go back to scarcity because , I just feel like nobody has money anymore at all. So how do we react to [00:32:00] a market that, you know, there's, everywhere you look, people are saying lost everything. there's no more money in the market.

Is that really true? Or how do we react to. 

Lindsay: What I've been telling both my financial therapy clients and the folks I coach, , I'm building their practices, is that. We deal with something every single day that we have no control over, and we have our whole lives, but we learn how to cope. And the example that I give is weather, not climate.

Weather . So when it's raining out, what do we do? We dress for the weather. We put on our rain boots, we put on our raincoat, We grab an umbrella. When it is cold out, we grab our parkass and our. And when it's warm out, you know, we get our little . Maybe we go inside somewhere that it's cooler or we find a space in the shade and we dress in like linen and lighter clothing.

Because here's the thing, none of us can control the weather, but we can control and prepare how we dress for it. [00:33:00] So when it comes to things like inflation and the stock markets and gas prices, we don't have control over that, and we have to release control over. But we do have control over other things.

And when it comes to financially preparing our businesses for the weather, there are certain things that we can do and that we do have control over. I recommend that all of my clients kind of increase the amount of money in their business emergency fund and in their personal emergency fund, and that means having a couple months of business expenses.

Readily available in that business bank account so that if you have fewer clients that month, or if you have like a, you know, a quieter month or two, you're still able to pay your business bills, but also continue to pay yourself. Because going back to the sustainability, we have to include ourselves in it.

So making sure that that business emergency fund has our business expense. And the ability to make sure that we are getting our pay from that business. [00:34:00] So that's one thing we could do to kind of financially dress for the weather of a a recess. Other things we can do are also making sure that we aren't reacting, we are really being embodied.

And when I say embodied, I mean checking in with our physical self and saying, What do I need and what do my clients need? I've seen some entrepreneurs panic put everything on a 50% off sale because they're terrified that nobody's gonna come because of the recession. And so they just put everything on sale.

Without going, Are my clients asking for this? Are people saying to me, You know what Lindsay? I'm unable to afford that. What other offers do you have? Or am I reacting and putting everything on sale? Right. So we have to get really wise that there may be creative ways to serve our clients financially speaking that don't put us in harm's way.

And that could be saying something like, Hey, you know, I've got all of this great content. I'm gonna offer , a membership community that is a lower cost, but I still am delivering high value knowledge and good and support, [00:35:00] goods and support. It could be saying, you know what, like for me, I do power sessions where I meet with a, a clinician.

One on one and we do a deep dive in like one or two things that are really kind of getting them stuck in their business and figuring that out. We could say, You know what, I'm gonna structure that, as a group power session so three people can split the cost of that and each person will get, you know, 20 minutes of my time.

But everybody gets. 60 minutes of support. And so you're providing something where you are still getting the income that you need to make your ends meet, but you're providing it maybe to your community at a lower cost. But we need to be really intentional about, So that's the second thing, is making sure that when you're pricing your.

Offers. You're not putting everything on sale just because, And then finally, it is worth kind of dialing down spending on areas that maybe aren't working for you any longer. So for example, maybe that is moving from a more expensive community platform to a more affordable community platform. Maybe that is saying, You [00:36:00] know what?

I've been paying for ads and maybe ads aren't really necessary for me right now. So maybe I hit pause on those ads so it can be. Dialing down that spending too. So those are kind of the three things I'm recommending for entrepreneurs as this recession likely is coming up, is to make sure you have enough in your reserves to pay yourself and to cover your business expenses.

Making sure that when you are pricing your offers, you are doing them in a way that still supports you financially, but might be of greater benefit to your clients by getting creative about your offers. And then three is dialing down expenses that maybe you don't need or don't need in the moment. Mm.

Sarah: Yeah. So good. I like the creativity. I think it's really a time for thinking creatively. Yeah. And coming up with, with offers that Yeah. In the past you hadn't thought, Oh, what if I did it this way, What I created, What if I created pods or Yeah. Small groups or things like that. , the other thing you kind of mentioned with the [00:37:00] savings, is really understanding that.

Business, especially as entrepreneurs, it comes in cycles and you cannot expect, you know, every month to be the same. I think we know that from experience, but just kind of relaxing into that and knowing that this may be a bit of a DR cycle, but that there's another one, , coming back. so, so just planning already in cycles and knowing Okay.

You know, now I'm kind of in this and what was it, eti, I forget the, these terms, but, but now it's kind of like a lower , cycle and plan for the, for the next one. Yeah. The, the one thing I wanted you to share to kind of close up here, is, you know, from some of your clients, the work you, if you can think of one mm-hmm.

where, where you kind of worked on. Pricing slash imposter syndrome, , if you would share that success story with 

Lindsay: us. Yeah, so one thing is [00:38:00] that in the US , I work with a lot of healthcare providers and specifically mental healthcare providers, and so it's really common for clinicians in private practice to say, I'm going to take insurance, because that feels.

You know good. And also insurance companies pay really poorly here. They just do. So by default, we end up sliding our fees to accommodate these insurance companies. And when I say they pay poorly, I'm talking, they pay 40, 50, 60% of our actual fees, so we're putting our fees on sale. And so a big fear for a lot of my clients is leaving insurance panels, and I have seen so many of my clients get comfortable saying, I'm going to leave those insurance panels so that I can actually take care of my financial self.

And then what they're able to do with that additional revenue. Is actually be able to offer sliding scale spaces that actually work for them. And what I mean by that is saying, Okay, for every eight clients [00:39:00] I have who pay my full fee, I can offer one client a super discounted rate without impacting my financial bottom line.

So it's about kind of getting into that balance and getting into that zone. And so many of my clients have been able to fill their practices in that way. That is in alignment with their values. That also helps to move them towards those other. Of the financial tiers that we talked about earlier. And so for people who are listening, that might also look like, how can I ethically increase my rates in a way that supports me and sustains me?

That then allows me to get creative and give back to my community. Maybe that means I do one free coaching call a month and anybody who wants to hop in can hop in. I first have to make sure that I financially am able to support that time going out. So thinking about it, for those of you who are listening, kind of making the scales with my hands right now, kind of getting really creative about how can we find that balance, how can we find that harmony [00:40:00] that supports us and supports our community?

Mm. 

Sarah: Yeah. So good. And I think that goes for everyone, not just clinicians or therapists, right? Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. So good. Thanks for sharing that. , this has been wonderful. Thank you so much for coming on, Lindsay. Do tell people where they can find, You and your work, and we haven't talked about your book, but you have a book out there as well, so mention that please, 

Lindsay: too.

Sure, of course. Well, thank you again, Sarah, for having me. This has been such a fun and energizing conversation. So my business is called Mind Money Balance, and you can find me on my website. My podcast is of the same name. My Instagram handle is of the same name. Depending on when this airs, I might be on an Instagram hiatus.

I like to take a few months off each year. Good for you. Yeah, which is really important and really, , helps to sustain me to give me that little social media break. , but the book that I wrote was called The Financial Anxiety Solution, and it's a workbook that helps you include. Your thoughts [00:41:00] and your feelings and your relationship with money.

My philosophy is that money is about 80% psychological and emotional, and about 20% about the numbers. And even the numbers that we need are very, very basic math. And I say this as a person who failed college algebra , right? Like all of the math that we need for our personal finances and really for the basics of building our business.

Finances can be done. Phone calculator or a quick Google search. So those are a couple of places to find me. And if you're interested in learning more about your financial archetype, I have a free [email protected] slash quiz. There are four different financial archetypes that shape the way we look at money and what we do with money.

So it can be a fun way to get to know a little bit more about why you might be falling into this imposter syndrome or over consuming. So you can check that out. 

Sarah: Wonderful. Yeah, I'll definitely make sure we put all those links in the show notes. And as you know, I always ask last question, and that is, what are you grateful for today or this week, 

Lindsay: Lindsay?[00:42:00] 

Oh, today and this week I have been really fortunate to spend some outdoor time with my friends living in a climate. I live in Michigan in the United States where it's chili for, you know, good six months of the year. So having. Son come out and be able to sit on back porches and patios with friends has been really nourishing to my soul.

So I'm really grateful for that at this moment in 

Sarah: time. Wonderful. And it's not too hot either, so 

Lindsay: that's No, no, it's, it's steamy, but it's do.

Sarah: Thanks so much for coming on to this show. I really enjoyed our time together. Such a treat.[00:43:00] 

Today's conversation fits under the P of Product of the 7Ps of Humane Marketing.

Today I'm speaking to an online bestie based in Norway. Solveig Petch [she/her] who goes by Petchy is a brand strategist and designer for values-driven business owners who want to build brands their way; without compromising their integrity or resorting to predatory business tactics. She believes that building an impactful and profitable brand can be done without screwing people over or working yourself into a pulp.

From her home office in rural Norway, Petchy crafts strategic brand identities for clients all over the world. She's passionate about helping business owners discover and define their brands' unique purpose and personality, find the confidence to own their sh*t — and tap into their uniqueness to spark meaningful connections and attract more of those omg, yes! clients.

She is also the creator of the Brand it!™ framework, and host of the Brand it! with Petchy podcast.

In this episode, you'll learn about building community through your email list as well as...

 

• Personal branding vs. branding: what's the difference
• Branding vs marketing: what's the difference there?
• Pros and cons of using our name in our brand
• Alternatives if we're not branding our name?
• What if you have outgrown your current brand?
• Branding architecture
• What's the future of branding?
• And so much more

Solveig's Resources

 

Solveig's Website

Brand it! with Petchy Podcast

Mini Email Course

Brand Archetype - A Quick Guide

Connect with Solveig on:

LinkedIn

Facebook

Instagram

 

Sarah's Resources

Watch this episode on Youtube

(FREE) Sarah's One Page Marketing Plan

(FREE) Sarah Suggests Newsletter

(FREE) The Humane Business Manifesto

(FREE) Gentle Confidence Mini-Course

Marketing Like We're Human - Sarah's book

The Humane Marketing Circle

Authentic & Fair Pricing Mini-Course

Podcast Show Notes

We use Descript to edit our episodes and it's fantastic!

Email Sarah at [email protected]

Thanks for listening!

 

After you listen, check out Humane Business Manifesto, an invitation to belong to a movement of people who do business the humane and gentle way and disrupt the current marketing paradigm. You can download it for free at this page. There's no opt-in. Just an instant download.

Are you enjoying the podcast?  The Humane Marketing show is listener-supported—I'd love for you to become an active supporter of the show and join the Humane Marketing Circle. You will be invited to a private monthly Q&A call with me and fellow Humane Marketers -  a safe zone to hang out with like-minded conscious entrepreneurs and help each other build our business and grow our impact.  — I'd love for you to join us! Learn more at humane.marketing/circle

Don't forget to subscribe to the show on iTunes or on Android to get notified for all my future shows and why not sign up for my weekly(ish) "Sarah Suggests Saturdays", a round-up of best practices, tools I use, books I read, podcasts, and other resources.

Raise your hand and join the Humane Business Revolution.

Warmly,

Sarah

Imperfect Transcript of the show

We use and love Descript to edit our podcast and provide this free transcript of the episode. And yes, that's an affiliate link.

Sarah: [00:00:00] [00:01:00] [00:02:00] [00:03:00] [00:04:00] Hey pet so good to hang out with you today. 

Petchy: Hello, Sarah. And likewise, thank you so much for inviting me. 

Sarah: Oh yeah. When I looked at, , you know, our conversations, me being on, your podcast and doing some other things together, all of a sudden I'm like, I'm pretty sure I have PE on the podcast already and I realized I hadn't.

So I'm [00:05:00] so glad we get this chance now to, yeah. To talk about branding. , I think I did tell you that we're featuring this episode under the P of product of the humane marketing podcast or humane marketing mandala. And so, yeah, it's this idea of creating a product and what we kind of discussed before, , recording is this idea of, well, how, how does branding fit into us being the product?

Maybe a lot of entrepreneurs. That's what it is. We are the product, we are the brand. , and so, yeah, that's what we wanna talk about today. So maybe just kind of, yeah, take us right in there. I don't do long introductions. I kind of already introduced you in the, in the intro. So just take us into this concept of branding that quite honestly, I think you know this, and, and I know it, it's a scary thing sometimes for entrepreneurs, this word [00:06:00] branding, it sounds so official.

And, and so, yeah. Tell us your approach to brand. 

Petchy: Yeah. So, when we spoke before this, this recording session, we were chatting a little bit about, you know, why do you actually need a brand? So maybe that's a good starting point. We can look at at that and then go into what a brand is. Mm-hmm and isn't, and then we'll just take it from there.

So the thing with branding is. Some people are like, well, do I, do I really need a brand? But the thing is you already have a brand and that is whether you like it or not. So the question, I guess, is more, is it's a deliberate brand that you are actively taking control of. And that's, I think where a lot of especially smaller business owners go a bit wrong because they have a misconception in their heads about what a brand actually is.

So. Because a brand, [00:07:00] a lot of people tend to think it's just the logo, the colors and how your visual brand looks. Right. But that is really just the tip of the iceberg. And your brand is really it's. What other people think of you mm-hmm and that's something that you just cannot ever be a hundred percent in control of.

Cause you can't go into people's. Brains and dictate, you know, this is how you should feel about my brand. , so you can't control it fully, but you can try and steer people's. Views of your brand in the right direction. So a brand is what other people think of you, but branding is what you do to try and influence how people see your brand.

Yeah. Yeah. And within branding. So branding are the actual activities that you do, right. , and that can include a lot of things like positioning, messaging, your brand identity, of course. , but. Your brand [00:08:00] identity, isn't just the visual either. It's your verbal brand identities. So all of those actions that you take to try and influence people's perception of your brand, that is branding

I love that so much. So actually that cleared 

Sarah: up a little bit. Yeah. That, that definition of a brand is what people think of you, , when, when not there often, right? yeah. And then, and then branding is what you do. Also, let me do the question. Well, then what's difference between branding and marketing.

Obviously we know that we overlap on certain things, but what would you say is the difference between branding and marketing? 

Petchy: I, I would say that branding is more who you are and how people see you and then, or how you want people to see you. And marketing is more how you tell people about who you are, like, how do you talk about your products?

How do you talk about your brand and how do you reach [00:09:00] those people that you need to reach your ideal? Audience and those like marketing activities, I guess, is like, what do you do to get your brand out there? right. 

Sarah: Okay. So there's the brand, which is again, what people think of you branding. You said it's doing the thing.

So, so because marketing, you said is then communicating, right? Yes. That would be a good word for community. Yeah. That's a really good way of putting it. And so when, when you say branding is doing, what is the doing. 

Petchy: That can look so different from brand to brand. But it's those, so it's, it's your visual identity.

It's how you speak as well. It's how you put yourself out in the world. So I think. For, for smaller business. And it's really important to re remember that your, your visual branding is actually just a tiny, tiny piece of the whole branding puzzle. Mm-hmm . Yeah. You also [00:10:00] need to, once you've established your brand's foundations and you brand core, and you know who you are, you know what you stand for, you know, your values, you, you rock solid on that part.

Then you have to go out and like actively. Infuse that into every activity that you do for your brand. Right. So, and that, isn't just when you go to do your marketing, but it's also when you, , so say when you recruit people, how you build your company culture, that has to be rooted in your brand's core, but also how you treat people when they come to you with complaints, for instance, on like, so your customer service representatives, how should they.

Behave when they act on behalf of your brand. Right. What, where do you spend your money? You know, when you invest your money or buy services from, from other brands, are you conscious of where you're putting your money and whether that's aligns with your core values? [00:11:00] Because if, if there's a mismatch there.

People are going to figure it out and it's not going to be good for your brand. Let's just put it that way. 

Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. It's so good. And, and thank you for those examples. , I'm currently working with the, a company for, LinkedIn profile for their executives and they did send me their branding guidelines and it's like a document with like a hundred pages or so.

And so. That shows that, , they have clear guidelines about their brand and yes, that includes visuals. But it, for example, I always ask, what kind of tone do you want your LinkedIn profile to have? And so they have examples of tone in that branding document. So that would be the difference between marketing and again, branding is it's yes, it's doing things, but it's more like guidelines for how you are then gonna market.

and that's my thinking or my understanding of it. 

Petchy: Yeah. So your, your brand [00:12:00] strategy in a way is what informs every single business action that you take, right? Including marketing. Yeah, I guess. Yeah. , cuz you could put it that way. 

Sarah: That's good. Yeah. We often hear the term also personal branding. So where does that come in and how is that different from, you know, the branding that we're talking.

Petchy: Well, I kind of guess it's, it's in the name. There's a clue in the name, personal branding is more like how, how are you putting yourself out into the world and how are you being conscious about how you want other people to see you? But what I find is that with smaller businesses, smaller brands, where there is one person who is the main, character of the brand, I guess, or product of the brand.

As, you said earlier, I find that the. Get really blurry mm-hmm between like the personal brand and the actual brand. And to a certain extent, I think that's how it has to be for the smaller brands. If that makes 

Sarah: sense. [00:13:00] Yeah. Yeah. That's true. Because at least for my humane marketing, I always say bring more of you to your marketing because who I mainly talk to is entrepreneurs, but I even feel like the, the bigger brands.

We do have this trend of wanting to make it more personal. So it, I would say personal branding somehow even applies to bigger brands. , it is just that it's probably gonna be more worldview and value oriented than specific to just one person, 

Petchy: right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I would say that. I actually, I don't think that as a solo business owner or a small business owner, that you can remove yourself a hundred percent from your brand mm-hmm.

Because with the smaller brands, you, you just, you can't rely as heavily on sheer size, you know, or your market share or, or your reputation. So that personal connection, that human to human connection becomes more important, really because you wanna build trust. [00:14:00] And that trust is much, much easier to gain for a smaller brand, if there's a personal connection, human to human.

So I guess that's a strong argument in itself. Mm-hmm um, whereas like a big household brand that everybody knows about, they probably don't need that same level of human to human connection in the, in the big scale of things, but on, on a more personal level, The human to human connection becomes important.

And that's when it's really important that, so if you, if you are a small brand now, and then you have big plans and you grow, and then you are becoming a bigger brand that human to human connection will go, it will trickle down into your employee level rather than yourself. And that's when it's important that your employees are on board with the brand values and the brand approach and like the brand personality so that they can act.

On behalf of your brand. Yeah. And create, create those connections yeah. 

Sarah: For your brand. And that's [00:15:00] not easy. That's not an easy job, especially if you have like a huge brand, every, store clerk and everybody needs to be informed about those values and 

Petchy: yeah. Yeah. That's where it can fall apart.

If you aren't clear on those foundations. Right. Day one. Yeah, because if you are not clear on them yourself, and then as your team grows, it's going to get more and more difficult to communicate that to your team so that they can take that and act on it. So I would say. Even, that's why it's so important, even for the smaller businesses to have a think about these things, even if it's still just the early days or even if it's still just you

Sarah: Yeah. Quotation marks for, for those who are not watching the video. yeah. Yeah. What it makes me think also obvious is, if you are just a one, person brand, , a lot of the first things you need to decide is yeah. On the [00:16:00] name of your business and on your domain name that you're gonna reserve your website.

And so there's always this question. Well, do I use my name? As my brand or as my website domain or, or do I use, you know, a name for my business and then use that as a domain name. So kind of like, what are the pros and cons of using your name or not using your name? 

Petchy: Oh, well again, this is very individual.

Yeah. So I guess my. My first thing that I wanna say is you don't have to do anything if it doesn't feel right for you. So it is not like you have to use your name to build a, like a brand centered around you as a person. And it totally depends on your circumstances. , for some people it really makes sense to use their name and they want to use their name, that comfortable using the name and putting it out there.

Maybe they know that, okay, I want this business to be centered around me. Maybe it's not even going [00:17:00] to grow. And that in that case, it just really makes sense to, , to use your name as a brand name and build on that personal brand. But there are businesses who are run by just one person who also like, can absolutely have a very different brand name.

Right. So I think. I think it's very personal decision to make, and it depends a little bit on what, what is it that you're putting out there? So for a, for a coach, for instance, or someone who works with a very sort of tight closed, personal connection with their clients, it maybe makes a lot more sense to be using your name.

Whereas if you are selling a product or if you're selling or a program, a one to, oh, a program or one to many mm-hmm , , Service then it makes more sense to have a, a brand name that's separate from your own name. Right. But that doesn't mean that you have to [00:18:00] remove yourself completely from your brand. , So I, I guess what I'm saying is it, it kind of gets down to brand architecture and how you want to build the layers of your brand as the founder.

Sarah: Mm we'll get to that term in a minute. Cuz I think there's more to UN unpack under the term brand architecture. Now we're getting like super into it. , now we're gonna get geeky. exactly super geeky. , Yeah. What, what came up for me also is, you know, kind of my evolution of, of brand. So I have my website, Sarah and acro, and that's where I built my LinkedIn consulting, brand over the last decade or so.

And so that was. , very clear to me, this is me as the LinkedIn consultant and, and, and I never, obviously you can't use LinkedIn in the brand, so that was already kind of a limitation, I guess, in that yeah. Needs to be taken into consideration. You can't just make up a brand name using, you know, [00:19:00] existing terms and, and names.

, and then. You know, started thinking about the gentle business revolution and, and gentle marketing and, and, you know, the story behind that trademark mess. And so that's kind of another thing that I guess if you go with a brand name, then you are really, and I did not realize that I just went, you know, very naively into that thing.

, but you do get into other territories where all of a sudden. It's not just your name anymore. , you're claiming a brand name and, you know, the story that happened to me, , you know, it published a book two weeks after I got a seasoned desist letter that I cannot use that name, gentle marketing anymore.

So in a way it does feel like there's more considerations to think of when you are using you. Words and make up your own brand name rather than just using your cause. Nobody can, [00:20:00] you know, kind of season desist your name. That's your name? You are. No, 

Petchy: nobody can, nobody can go after you using your name. So there's safety in that, of course as well.

Yeah. But I guess if you are a person who isn't super keen on being the face of your brand, Then one way to do that is to focus, your efforts more on like branding your products or your services, or maybe your signature method, finding like a brand name for those. And then. Still remaining in the background or the foreground, however much you're comfortable with as the creator of

So, , for instance, I have a, a framework that I've, , spent probably 20 something years developing. , and I call it the branded framework and I then can say that I'm, I'm the creator of that framework, right? Yeah. So if that, at some point, if that grows bigger than me, Yeah. I don't know if it will. , , I don't have any fixed plans for that, but if it does, if it, if it blows up and it gets bigger than me, [00:21:00] then I can still be, I can still, say that I'm the creator of that framework.

Yeah. Yeah. So I would then possibly lead with my framework rather than leading with my name. Exactly. You would take a new domain name. What's right. Yeah, what's right. And what's wrong. 

Sarah: Is no, it's very individual and it's a personal choice. It's personal choice. And it comes back to your definition of success.

And yet it's not an easy choice because so often we hear either one or the other being the right. Decision, right. Oh, you gotta scale and go big and you want to exit, you know, your, your business at one point and that's why you need a brand or on the other hand is no, you want that personal connection.

And that's why you need to use your name as your brand. Well, the pens, you know? Yeah. You need to actually think about how you see this business. Do you want to grow it? And if you don't, well, you're perfectly fine using your name and, and, and for me, even if you do. [00:22:00] You 

Petchy: can still use your, your name. Exactly.

You see? I mean like, yeah, you see big brand names based off a real person's name all the time where you know that they are this huge brand with lots of employees, worldwide presence. And it's still exactly person's name at the top. There's no 

Sarah: correct answer. Really? No. And I 

Petchy: think that's something that's one of my pet peeves in the business world.

This whole notion that my way is the right way. And then you have three or four different people claiming that it's their way. That it's the only way. Right. And really there is no right or wrong answer. It's only down to you what path you like to take. Yeah. And, and you can course correct along the way.

So if you, if you start out using your own name for instance, and you feel like that's not. It's not quite right. Then you can, you can twist it and you can take a different turn. 

Sarah: Yeah. You know, what I noticed do Petchi is it's, it's easier for people to [00:23:00] be told this is the right way, right? They're like, oh, this is the easy answer that I, you know, I'm looking for.

And so. When we tell 'em, oh, it's up to you, you know, you have the choice then they're like, oh, I don't know. And then, so really what we're saying here is like, if you feel like you are don't know which way to go, well, sit with it, then actually do the work and figure out, well, what. Do I want to do with this business?

Do I want to grow it? What's my definition of success, all these questions that take some deeper work, because yeah, the gurus day will tell you, it's only this way or it's only that way. Mm. 

Petchy: And of course it's easy. It's I mean, I like the idea of just being able to take someone else's approach and make it work for me outta the box.

But I think in reality, That works for very few people. Yeah. And I see it all the time when I work with my clients and the work that I do with my clients. [00:24:00] I will never design just a logo for a client for instance, and that BEC that's because I, I need them to do that deep in a work first, so I can do a, a good job and the resistance there to actually go and do that deep work is, is present in.

90 something percent of all of my clients when they come to me and they're like, oh, I just need a logo. I just wanna want it to look good. And oh, do I really need to look into these deep questions? It's, it's hard. and I'm like, well, you really do need to. And that's why the process takes longer than just like a couple of weeks to, to complete as well, because these are.

Really big, really heavy questions and they take time to process. , yeah, for, 

Sarah: I really feel like we do the same groundwork because it's the same with the clients who just want marketing, you know, they just want clients. And so it's like, okay, just tell me how I need to market. Right. Do I need to be on Facebook on Instagram?

Like, no, you need to actually go into [00:25:00] these deep questions. And I feel like. That's what we have in common. You then go into branding and I go into marketing, but the deep core level, figuring out, you know, who you are and what you want that needs to come first in both cases. 

Petchy: It does. Yeah. And what I will say also is after that initial period of resistance and feeling like, oh, it's too hard.

It's too big. I can't do this. Once they start to. Like find the little golden nuggets within themselves that, that they already had. Like, all of this is already, inside. You, you just need to extract them. And sometimes you just need someone to help you. like, right. , that sort your thoughts around things, but really nobody else.

But you can do the actual work of doing that in a work. And, and then. What I find is when people start to find those golden nuggets within themselves and they have those aha moments, they emerge on the other side [00:26:00] of that, really quite what feels like a bit of a Rocky road to them, I think. And they emerge with such clarity.

Mm-hmm . That it's, , it's amazing to see the transformation and how they then talk about their brand or talk about themselves as a brand differently. Yeah. Afterwards 

Sarah: mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's kind of like the, the labyrinths I talk about in the marketing, like we're human book, you go in you rumble, you have to ask all these deep questions, then you stand in the middle of the labyrinths you rise.

You realize how you are different, , from everybody else. And then you walk back into the world and you resonate, right? Because you are now clear and you can tell these stories that, yeah. That just resonate with people. And that's what the branding. Does you know that deep foundational branding, not the, not the logo, the logo doesn't do that.

Right. Cause there's not, yeah, not enough deep inner work. , that's amazing. [00:27:00] Yeah. I wanna, I wanna kind of come to some other questions as well. Well, the, actually that term that you mentioned, , before brand architecture. So tell us a bit more about that and the different layers of brand. 

Petchy: Yeah, I'll, I'll try and, uh, make it, oh, well, simplify it a bit.

 Because brand architecture can be really complex, but we can also think about it in really sort of simpler terms. So in essence, brand architecture, it's the layers of your brand. So how many levels. Does your brand have, and on the one side you have what we call a branded house. And on the other extreme, you have what you call a house of brands.

And then of course there are all sorts of hybrid models that you can adopt in the middle there. And a lot of us smaller business owners will probably find ourselves towards, leaning towards a hybrid model or, , maybe a, a [00:28:00] branded house. So somewhere towards that end of the scale. , and that's because we are naturally, we are naturally the focus of our brands, but we then might have certain product brands that then lie on the next level.

Below us like, so if you, if you place yourself as the mother brand of your brand, , Sarah is, , on the top there mm-hmm and then you have your, your method, that's kind of a subbrand to your main brand , and any other like product or services that you decide to brand separately. So it's brand architecture is more about figuring out how all of these little puzzle pieces, , fit together.

Mm. And then. You can also look at whether you want that. Do you want there to be a difference between your personal brand, , and your corporate brand because, and that goes back to what we were just talking about as well. And it's, it's really is up to you how visible you are as the brand owner. So if you're leaning more towards a [00:29:00] corporate brand, then you would perhaps not use your own name so much, but if you're leaning more towards.

A personal brand, you would lead with your name. So, or in the corporate 

Sarah: brand brand, just be featured as like the founder or yeah, mm-hmm 

Petchy: yeah. And I mean, you have examples of this. So you have some of the big household brands where, you have Unilever, for instance, they obviously that's the mother brand, but it's not really that visible.

When you go out and look into the world, you don't really see the mother brand as much because you see the, the sub brands, you see the product brands, right? They are the ones who take center stage. , and the reason why a lot of these like bigger brands that have a lot of different products do it that way is because it then allows them to go into the marketplace and compete.

Against itself, if you know what I mean, they can have several different products, very distinct product brands, so, and they can be competing against [00:30:00] each other. Mm-hmm 

Sarah: so that would be the, the house of brands. Right. That would be the more the 

Petchy: corporate model. That's more of the corporate line. So for instance, if you have a very.

A very strong, but hidden mother brand. Maybe they do lines of cleaning products. Maybe they even do like two different brands of washing powder, like detergent mm-hmm because they are structured in that way. They can do that. Like they can put the brands up to like against each other. But that's not the approach that most small business owners take.

So we are more in the, on the other end of the scale, where, where we just focus on building a, like a solid core around ourselves. And then you can decide whether you want to have a prominent role in that, or whether you wanna step back a little bit and let your approach or your signature service. If you.

Those to [00:31:00] lead instead. So it's, it's just figuring out like the prominence of the different levels as well and how it all works together. But, I dunno if I mentioned it to you, but I do have a little guide on this. Just a one page PDF that I will happily let your listeners. Have so I will send that to you.

Sarah: Oh, awesome. Sarah, I'll definitely make sure that they can download that because I think that's when it gets complex as well. As you know, we were talking before we, , recorded this idea of what, if you have outgrown your brand and now you need to rebrand and you know, all these questions. Well, what do I need to change?

How do you communicate about it? That's when it gets complex. And that's when people really need to ask for help from someone like you, because then it can quickly get in into very messy brands. Right. where it's like, yeah, I see it all the time. It's like that one times it's like that and yeah, it's just kind of gets confusing.

Petchy: It's [00:32:00] one of the scenarios that I come across. The most, actually, when I work with my clients is some, they, they will come to me. They already have a brand and they they're doing fairly well with that, but it feels like something's a little bit off. It's not feeling aligned anymore. , and maybe they feel like they've outgrown their brand, as you said.

And, and yeah, I think that's when it becomes even more important to take that step back and look at the foundations before you do anything else, because maybe that was the missing piece, right? , from the previous brand and a lot of the. I find that they don't have to throw everything out of the window and start all over a lot of the time we can take what they have and we can mold it and we can tweak it and we can turn that into the next iteration of the brand.

So it's not, it's not always necessary to go right back. Yeah. Start from scratch. 

Sarah: I have a very personal question about my brand. You know, I have the humane marketing. it's more of. An idea as a brand, because my company is not [00:33:00] called humane marketing. , the website is humane marketing, and then I have marketing, like we're human selling, like we're human.

Those are the, the books. So would you say marketing, like we're human and selling? Like we're human are kind of like the subbrands, even though I'm, I'm not really branding them, but I'm often talking about. This idea of selling or marketing or now LinkedIn, like we're human. Is this kind of a sub-brand even though I'm not really, you know, branding it per se.

Mm. Yeah, I 

Petchy: think it's kind of just naturally falling into the category of sub-brand. Okay. , maybe you're just doing it sub subconsciously , but, and it feels like natural, but also I feel like you are a whole approach. The whole sort of human centered way of doing things has potential to become a brand.

Of its own something bigger than you eventually. Yeah. Like if, if that is the direction that you wanted to take it, 

Sarah: That's so humane marketing. That's kind of the reason why I, you know, didn't [00:34:00] put it under my name. I was like, well, if I'm. Wanting to create a movement, then it's not all about me. It's about the movement and the idea behind the movement.

And, and so that's why I went with humane marketing and the trademark and, and all of that. So, so yeah, I, I was just wondering, you know, what is this. A subbrand in a small business example. So for you branded, you said, that could become a its own subbrand eventually. So, so I'm thinking maybe marketing, like we're human is another example.

Petchy: Yeah. Yeah. I would say that's, that's exactly how it would work. And then, , for now maybe you are more prominent than humane marketing. Yeah. But at some point you might find. That the roles change and that's okay. And you can then make a conscious decision of whether you want to lead with yourself or whether you want to lead with your approach or your method or your movement.

Yeah. , but also it kind of gives you a lot of [00:35:00] cred too. If this thing grows bigger than you. If you managed to create this worldwide movement. Then imagine what effect that has on your personal brand to be able to go out there and say with confidence and pride that, hi, I'm Sarah, I'm the creator of this movement, you know, I'm the founder of this.

Yeah. So they all, they're all connected. 

Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I see how the personal brand plays into that now. Yeah. There's there's one, kind of final topic I wanted to touch upon. And that's this idea of the future, you know, what does the future of branding looks like? Which direction are we going in in terms of branding?

Petchy: Oh, well, I, I don't think I have a crystal ball , but I, the way I see it and the way I'm experiencing it as, as a part. Like the business world right now [00:36:00] is that those personal connections are going to become even more important for, for brands as we move forward, because people are craving that human connection.

People are craving to be seen, to be heard, to be taken seriously by a human and not, and to not just feel like there are a number in a sales spreadsheet or. Or in a CRM system. Mm-hmm I know for myself that makes me feel very, it feels like it's dehumanizing somehow. So yeah, those genuine, genuine connections, and not trying to present yourself as anything other than what you are not trying to con people just, just.

Don't be an asshole. Sorry. Am I allowed to swear on your yes, that's fine. 

Sarah: totally fine. Yeah. And it's funny. Cuz just yesterday I, I got on a call from, with a new circle member, a human [00:37:00] humane marketing circle and I offered these coffee chats and. The guy actually said, you know, I really appreciate having this chat with you.

I was really impressed by this human connection, cuz usually in these memberships, we don't get that. And, and that proves what you just said. It's like, Yeah, we're, we're used to just being a number, right. We're used to kind of just paying monthly subscriptions, but not actually counting as, as human beings or not having that connection with the, you know, the, the other people or the founders.

So I think, I think you're totally right. What about in terms of go ahead. No, sorry. 

Petchy: I was just saying, I think we're moving from the sort of spray and pray approach to a more. Focused, deeper, but narrower kind of connection. Yeah. 

Sarah: Yeah. The, which also maybe means, you know, smaller businesses, not giant, [00:38:00] you know, kingdoms of, of businesses.

Like some of the big names had in the past, You know, smaller communities, but very meaningful communities. I, I think that's where we're, we're heading. Yeah. 

Petchy: I think there will still, we will still see those big brands as well, because they are so established by now that they, they just own a certain market share by now.

But. When you see a lot of smaller brands emerging, it's, it's a lot easier for people to find a brand that really resonates with them, you know, that they really feel onboard with this brand's vision and what they're trying to do and the values and what they stand for. And that connection of feeling like you are a part of something.

Yeah. And not just a, an invisible, insignificant little, little puzzle piece. Mm-hmm I think that becomes more important for. People wanna feel like they're making a difference or that they're doing good. Right. And, , whatever that [00:39:00] might be. So, I mean, I will find a lot of brands out there that stand for the complete opposite of what I stand for.

But there will be people who resonate with them too. Yeah. And then I can go and find the brand that resonates with me. Mm-hmm and then that, that's my way of being able to influence the world in that direction. I wanna see it is choosing what brands I support and what brands I buy from. Right. 

Sarah: What about visually?

, I remember you and I talked about the visual aspect also of future design. , what's your, future vision. 

Petchy: Ah, this is a big question as well. , there's this term that I've seen, going round the block, lately and it's de branding Okay. so the, some of the like bigger, more established brands have ditched, slightly complex logos and gone back to basics with just the, the sort of flat logos, very simple like logo types.

, and I've seen. Some like [00:40:00] controversy around it as well. And like, people are like, oh, what do you think of this before and after? And you have a lot of designers, especially the younger designers going, oh, why are they doing that? Now? They don't look like, you know, they are not distinct anymore. They just look like one of many.

And for me, I'm classically trained. I'm a bit of a dinosaur. I'm gonna age myself enough for saying this, but I'm trained the old school way to. To develop visual identities. And especially if we talk about the logo, that it should be able to work in its simplest form. Right. And then, so that was, that was the initial approach.

And then like maybe in the, the old days, you didn't have all of the, digital channels that we have now in all of the different reproduction methods for. Digital print and all of that. And so your logo had to be simple, right? It had to communicate in a, in a really simple, way and be really distinct, , just in one color and just flat.

[00:41:00] So that's where like I come from and then you can add things to it. And I think with the, with technology, just moving so fast, we were able to do so many things to these logo. So easily, we could just like add a drop shadow, or we could add a gradient or we could make it look fancy or we could animate logos and and somewhere in that, I think we lost the simplicity.

That's really powerful. Mm-hmm because we just started adding things because we could . Right. , and the way I see it now is more brands are returning to. The basics, because even though we have now, all of these options are how to, how to place our logo. And really, we aren't limited to anything, but it's, it's just going back to the basics and 

Sarah: seems, seems to be a movement kind of everywhere.

Right. And it's, it's bad to me it's going in the right direction and we need to simplify everywhere, you know? [00:42:00] Yeah. And that's 

Petchy: not to say that you can't start with a simple logo and add something fancy to it, but it's. Then you will always have that really solid recognizable icon that, that you can go back to.

So, okay. So all of these special effects, they're all just fashion, you know, they're all just like trends, pleading trends. So maybe one year gradient logos are all the rage. Everybody wants a gradient logo and they're like a year after. That trend is gone and it's nice then to have a, just a clean, timeless logo that you can revert back to him and then yeah, tweak it.

Sarah: I'm just also thinking, you know, about. I don't know, printing, for example, like every time you print such a complicated logo while you use more ink. Right. And, and so just sustainably thinking also it, it [00:43:00] needs to go into the direction of simplifying and going back to basics and, and yeah, to me, that seems to the right direction.

Anyway, I think we kind of got lost. Just like, yeah, everywhere. We got lost with technology and robots and chatbots and all of that. And now we just need to come back to basics and, 

Petchy: and, but there's no wonder I'm, I'm an early adopter of all like kinds of technology. I love new technology. I love new gadgets.

So I get that. It's, you know, it's fun to play with. But I don't think we should lose the sight of the basics and right where we came from either. So finding a striking a balance there, I think is good. Yeah. Is the future of branding finding that sweet spot and what works for you? Mm-hmm yeah. So not necessarily looking to a different brand or other brands, like bigger brands to figure out what's right for you.

Don't don't just copy. Just. That sort of introspective mm [00:44:00] wonderful things. 

Sarah: This has been really great. Thanks so much. Petchi for having this conversation and sharing so much wisdom. I always, I think for inviting me. Yeah. Thank you. I always ask one last question, , before you share where people can find you, but what are you grateful for today or this week?

Petchy: , today, well, not just today and not just this week, but just this, this year or this decade. , I'm just really grateful for living in a very safe country. I have food, I have clothes. I have a roof over my head and a wonderful family. And, that's something to be grateful for. I think in these. These times where we see what's happening around the world.

Yeah. 

Sarah: Yeah. Happy for you. Thank you. Share with us where people can find you and, mention maybe that PDF. Do you want to just send me that or is there a link that, , I can, 

Petchy: , yeah, I can send you that. Afterwards and you can put it wherever you, you. [00:45:00] Yeah. So wish, , yeah, no, the best place to go and find me and learn more about me online is my website.

You'll find everything there from like my approach, , and what I'm all about and ways to work with me and how to find me in other channels. And that's pet.co. , I also hung out on Instagram quite a lot. And on LinkedIn. But you won't probably see me pop up in your feed because the action is all in the sort of DMS and, , and that, but it's petri.co on, on Instagram as well.

If you wanna follow along there. And, , like I said, my feed is a static evergreen, nine grid. So the best way to connect with me on there is just to slide into my DMS and say, hello. . 

Sarah: Wonderful. Thanks so much. This was amazing. I learned a lot. So thank you for that pet. Thanks for being here. 

Petchy: Thanks for having me.[00:46:00] [00:47:00] 

Today I'm speaking to Emily McGuire about Building Community Through Your Email List

Emily is the Customer Evangelist at AWeber - a people-first Email Service Provider. With lessons learned over a decade in tech, sending thousands of email campaigns, and working on email campaigns earning over $80 million in revenue, Emily loves sharing the mistakes and strategies of email marketing done well.

You'll typically find her with a cup of coffee in hand because #momlife. When her head isn't on her laptop, you can find her chasing her kid, reading a book, or binging trashy TV.

In this episode, you'll learn about building community through your email list as well as...

 

• Whether we should really still bother with email
• What works well now to grow our email lists
• The Frequency sweet spot: how often is too much?
• The danger and warning signs of writing emails that are too transactional
• 3 big mistakes to fix to avoid people unsubscribing from your email list
• And so much more

Emily's Resources

 

Emily's Website

Emily's Resources

Connect with Emily on:

LinkedIn

Facebook

Twitter

 

Sarah's Resources

Watch this episode on Youtube

(FREE) Sarah's One Page Marketing Plan

(FREE) Sarah Suggests Newsletter

(FREE) The Humane Business Manifesto

(FREE) Gentle Confidence Mini-Course

Marketing Like We're Human - Sarah's book

The Humane Marketing Circle

Authentic & Fair Pricing Mini-Course

Podcast Show Notes

We use Descript to edit our episodes and it's fantastic!

Email Sarah at [email protected]

Thanks for listening!

 

After you listen, check out Humane Business Manifesto, an invitation to belong to a movement of people who do business the humane and gentle way and disrupt the current marketing paradigm. You can download it for free at this page. There's no opt-in. Just an instant download.

Are you enjoying the podcast?  The Humane Marketing show is listener-supported—I'd love for you to become an active supporter of the show and join the Humane Marketing Circle. You will be invited to a private monthly Q&A call with me and fellow Humane Marketers -  a safe zone to hang out with like-minded conscious entrepreneurs and help each other build our business and grow our impact.  — I'd love for you to join us! Learn more at humane.marketing/circle

Don't forget to subscribe to the show on iTunes or on Android to get notified for all my future shows and why not sign up for my weekly(ish) "Sarah Suggests Saturdays", a round-up of best practices, tools I use, books I read, podcasts, and other resources.

Raise your hand and join the Humane Business Revolution.

Warmly,

Sarah

Imperfect Transcript of the show

We use and love Descript to edit our podcast and provide this free transcript of the episode. And yes, that's an affiliate link.

Sarah: [00:00:00] Hi, Emily. So good to see you speak to you today. 

Emily: Hi there. Thank you for having me. Yeah, 

Sarah: it's We're focusing on email marketing in this episode. And that goes under my, P of promotion because, , if you think email, usually you're thinking, okay, I'm promoting something, even though you're probably gonna tell us, well, it's not just promotion , but that's where I placed it under.

So, Yeah. With that, let's just dive right in. , I think my first question would be, do you feel that email is still alive and kicking with all , you know, our over full inboxes? What, what's your take 

Emily: on that? Yeah. I mean, I think, you know, a lot of people like to say email is dad. They've been saying that since I started in email marketing, about eight years ago.

And, , you know, what I would say is, you know, email marketing, definitely isn't dad, [00:01:00] the way we think about it is, and I, that, People had adopted email, originally as a direct extension of direct mail. And so, , there's still some lingering ideas that email is this long form content where you can link, dump a bunch of articles and podcasts you're listening to, or the latest book you're reading in a newsletter and people are gonna read the whole thing.

And, you know, in today's world, in digital marketing, we're competing with constant distractions. And I think that we need to be really aware of helping our readers focus, , on the main goal of our campaigns, , rather than just throwing a ton of content at them, hoping they'll find the right thing for.

yeah. 

Sarah: What I hear you say is, is this idea of the [00:02:00] newsletter, right? It's like, here is my newsletter and there's like 20 pieces of news. And I actually expect you to buy something from, from that newsletter, I think. Yeah. That's what I'm hearing. And, and, and you're right there, there is this tendency still, and that, I guess, Dates back from the days that we have these newsletters, whereas like, oh, I'm signing up.

I'm giving my email away for just to be on a newsletter and that's just not true anymore. So, you know, I guess that makes me think of. , this idea of getting people onto you, your newsletter, or having them subscribe. So since this term newsletter clearly doesn't work anymore. What's the latest trend.

What works well now to grow your email list, to have more subscribers on, on your. 

Emily: Yeah. So,[00:03:00] you know, always a lead magnet of some kind is going to help. So lead magnet, , I'm sure you've probably addressed this before, but in case not, or if anybody needs a refresher, is a piece of content or a freebie or something, you can offer somebody in exchange for their email.

So you are essentially setting up the relationship, whether you're a subscriber by saying, Hey, I can help solve a, a pain point for you with, Again, with some sort of guide or workbook or, um, maybe a quiz or here's a free discount or gift, , in exchange for your email address and that way you are, again, incentivizing people and not just saying, being really vague and saying, sign up for our newsletters.

Well, what does your newsletter offer to people? Value are you offering to people? And that's where people, I think people really need to get specific around growing your [00:04:00] email list. Like, what is it you have to say and how are you actually helping folks? 

Sarah: So these eBooks you're saying they're still work because they, they have been around for a long time as well.

And it feels almost like. Maybe that's done too, but you're saying like, if the, I guess it depends on the topic. If the topic feels like, okay, this is going to help me, then I would give my email an exchange for the ebook. 

Emily: Yeah. I mean, an ebook is still, you know, is still a strategy. Some people use, but you know, you can do many courses that you deliver over email.

Mm-hmm , it doesn't have to be fancy. Like you can even take an ebook that you already have and turn it into little lessons that you drip out to your subscribers and, you know, send an email. What, after the other, so I think that, you know, starting with an ebook is a good place to start, but like, thinking about how are you interacting with your audience?

How are you really engaging them with [00:05:00] the lead magnet will help again, get people really excited about your brand instead of you dumping content. On them and saying here here's a 10 page, 10, 20 page PDF to read. , I know because everybody's busy, right? Like I said, everybody's busy. , and so how are you, , giving people smaller chunks, right.

Of information that is easy to digest. 

Sarah: Right. So, so let's talk about then the emails. You know, if they're not newsletters, what are we putting in those emails? And, and you're kind of talking about emails that are transactional, transactional, and, and some warning signs where we can tell. Okay. There's something not working.

People are not opening our emails or they're unsubscribing. So what are some signs of maybe, emails that are too transactional and then how do we fix that and how do [00:06:00] we make them non transactional? 

Emily: Right. So I like to encourage people to think about, Different, email campaign categories.

Mm-hmm that they want out. So, you know, obviously you're gonna have different goals for your emails. You might have, you might want to be pushing, you know, sales more often. Right? Of course, you're, everybody's trying to make money. Right. We gotta pay the bills. but you know, sending sale or emails that are really, only around.

 Getting a sale or conversion. If you're only sending emails like that, you're gonna start seeing high unsubscribed rates, right? Mm-hmm and, uh, list churn is what they call that mm-hmm . And so you're not engaging people, you're not giving, you're only asking right. For them to give you their money. And so a varying that, I mean, having sale oriented emails is important, but also putting in content that is engaging.

So maybe. You know, talking about, thought leadership [00:07:00] what's thought leadership in your industry having one email. So I recommend at least sending one email per week to keep. Engaged. So maybe one email a month is dedicated to that's more sales focused, one email a month. That's dedicated to thought leadership, around your specific, subject area.

 Another one that's more personal, you know, because people wanna connect with you as a human. So do you have a story to tell about your business? Maybe what's going on behind the scenes and how can you show your humanity? And then maybe one that's a customer focused success story. So how are you helping your customers?

What is something that, what are successes they're having? So you're sort of giving a whole picture to your business, keeping folks engaged, but also selling. Right. So metrics to look at for that are, you know, there are industry benchmarks that people like to cite. I've seen those very widely [00:08:00] across businesses.

I don't think that they're very accurate. What I recommend people doing is setting your own internal benchmark. So what are your open rates for the past three months? Look at that. And then if something is dipping below that or jumping above that, then you know, you've got some successes or you've got some warning signs.

So, open rates, I like to tell people. Anything over 20%, you're doing pretty good. Obviously you can do better. Anything under 10%. There's a problem. And usually when you've got, when open rates might dip, there's usually something else going. Else going on and that's usually a result of your list health.

So it might be something going on with your subscriber base. Maybe you've got a lot of really unengaged people that need to be reengaged. Maybe they've never opened an email. If you have really low clicks on your email, then you need to start looking at, okay, what are you asking people to click on?[00:09:00] 

Are you giving them incentive to click through to something else? And is that click really gonna get you where you want them to go? So is that going to lead to a sale or is it gonna lead them down their buying journey with you and then, and then another one is unsubscribe. So I already mentioned that, you know, just keeping an eye on that.

What's your benchmark for your business over the last three months. And if you're starting to see your unsubscribed rates tick up and up, people are unengaged, with your emails. They're not there. There's something wrong with the content of your email, and then you need to come back and look at what were my most successful emails.

Mm-hmm what were. With and how can I take those lessons and replicate it for future emails? 

Sarah: Mm-hmm yeah, I don't do that enough. yeah. And the one thing that you didn't mention, but I guess would also play into that is when you actually get [00:10:00] replies, that's my favorite, you know, when you send an email and then you get replies, people telling you their stories and that's when I'm.

Wow. I just love my lists. They're , you know, they're right there. They know that I'm the one sending the, the emails and then they can tell that it's personal and it's not, obviously it's automated because that's what we do nowadays. We use these tools, but they, if they hit reply, they feel like, okay, I can talk to Sarah and she's, she's gonna reply back.

Emily: Right. Exactly. Yeah. Replies are a great one too. Not everybody, some people might have a contact center that is managing those replies for them. But yeah, if you're managing your own list and those replies are beautiful, they're, they're a great way to gauge engagement. 

Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. And then you talked about, opening rates and, and I know I have heard this number before the 30% or 20% is.

Still always surprises me. Like it seems [00:11:00] so low. Right. But that is just a sign of how overly busy we all keep ourselves and how much email. Stuff were subscribed to you. Like it just always, this just surprises me. I always tell my clients and my listeners to unsubscribe from the things that they're not actually using, but I, I guess the big majority of people are just, yeah, they still have too much stuff in their inbox.

It's 

Emily: amazing. Yeah. Yeah. Well, and that's why, Well, but it also presents you an opportunity, right? So I like to tell people to resend their emails, , cuz people really have a lot of concern around redundancy. Mm-hmm . You know, well, if I already sent that content out in an email, people have already seen it before.

They're not gonna wanna see it again. And it's like, well, if a good open rate is 20%, that means 80% of your E your list never [00:12:00] sought to begin with. Right. Yeah. And so that, that's a really great to me. It's a great opportunity to, , recycle your content, send out the same email content, you know, maybe three months apart, pick out your best performing emails and queue them up.

So if you're having a busy week or, you know, you're, you're, you've got writer's block. You're not sure what you wanna send out that week. You've got a queue of old email. That you know, people like that you can resend. , yeah. And 

Sarah: would you then target it in a way that the ones that had opened it wouldn't get it again or you're like, doesn't matter.

Emily: It doesn't matter. I think a lot of people assume that just because somebody opened an email, , they think that it means that a they read it. not everybody does just because they opened the email, , B that they, remember. Everything or remembered what was in the email? Mm. And C , took the [00:13:00] action.

They intended to mm-hmm . Again, we are competing with distractions. And so in my opinion, , you know, repetition is helpful. It's not a burden, it's not annoying. you're just reinforcing the points that, you know, people need. , cuz you're, you're listening to your customers and you know what help they need and hopefully your emails are helping.

Sarah: Mm. Yeah. I, I kind of struggle with that idea cuz I feel like, well then what if you know, 10 people already read it and they're like, Sarah are, you know, are you ING with what's wrong? Like why are you sending me the same email? Like that? yeah, but, but I guess if you just kind of make the intro a bit differently or, or like rapid.

Yeah. I, what I started doing actually. Uh, and I heard that on, on Jenny Blake's podcast is, Using the email. So a single email and then adding it to a sequence because [00:14:00] people who are on my list now, well, they're getting it now, but then if I add it to a sequence, then these people will get it once they get to that sequence.

And so that I, I have started doing and. Stopped again, but do do that again. I think that that's a great strategy because you're right. It, we create so much content and, and especially those emails that, you know, resonated with our audience. Why not reuse them again? Sometimes I even used the email text and then just post it on LinkedIn, the same text, because you're right.

Maybe they didn't see it on LinkedIn or they didn't see it on, on email. Yeah. 

Emily: Yeah, exactly. I think, you know, we. Because we are so in our own content that people are not paying as close attention to it as we are. Yeah. You know, we know our content, but our audience, you know, they, they mostly don't care.

right. Yeah. And you know, I've gotten, you know, from my own email list for,[00:15:00] , when I had a consulting business, I. I had a couple emails that people loved that I would send out once every six months. And I had the same people replying to that email saying they loved it every single day. like, remember that they got it before they had remarkable, you know, we have very short memories.

Yeah. 

Sarah: It's like goldfish memories. How much should we worry about these unsubscribed rates? When clients tell me, you know, they're always like freaking out when, when people unsubscribe and I actually try to tell 'em, well, maybe it's a good thing. Depends. You know? So what's your take on that and, and, and then maybe also tell us how can we avoid unsubscribes at at least.

You know, big numbers of unsubscribes cuz the, the equational one, I think it's 

Emily: actually healthy. Yeah. I mean it's [00:16:00] healthy, right. You know, not every, you know, not everybody's good for fit for us all the time. Right. , and you don't want people who are not interested you in you on your email list, cuz that drags down your engagement.

Right. But there are a couple things that you can do to help with unsubscribes. One is, you know, if you see a spike in unsubscribes, something's wrong, you know, and usually what I see in that is, you know, maybe, , your subject line over promised what was in your email, right? Those things match up. You were not matching expectations up correctly for people.

So I, I see people trying to get a little bit tricky and click Beatty with their subject lines. Yeah. And that ultimately, , loses trust with your subscribers, right? Yeah. The other thing you can consider is, , what I've done. For, businesses and myself, , is allowed people to pause their subscriptions.

Mm. So you can, instead of saying, I let's break up [00:17:00] forever, you can say, you know what, I need a bit of a break three or six months, you know, you can decide that number for yourself three months seems to be a good option for folks and all you have to do. You know, depending on your email service provider, you can have a little button, or add a button above.

Your unsubscribed link that says, you know, I need a break, something like that pop for three months and click, when they click it, send them to a really simple landing page that says, , you know, that confirms that their subscriptions paused. And again, depending on your email service provider, you should be able to tag somebody if they click that link.

Right. And then them in an automation. that has that tag on them for three months. And at the end of this three months, you remove that tag and then all you have to do [00:18:00] is make sure that in your newsletter segment or your regular email campaign segment, you're excluding that tag. So, yeah, that's another option you can do is that you, they call that opting down instead of opting out.

Sarah: I like that. Yeah. , I'm not sure I'm using Kajabi. I, I would need to check with, with them if they offer that option. But it, I think that's a great idea. , it's kind of like I'm, I'm on a. You know, email sabbatical, please, you know, please, please pause me for six months. Yeah, 

Emily: yeah. And I've also done this for, you know, if you're running a, a campaign over a few weeks that is more maybe sales focused or if you're running, a challenge or, or something else, if instead of having people unsubscribed, if they're not interested in that particular thing, I let them know, Hey, you're not interested in this right now.

You can pause for the duration. Yeah. Yeah. So, , it's another option to save those subscribers. 

Sarah: Yeah. Any, any other, , [00:19:00] tips to yeah. Have stop people from unsubscribing, I guess also in terms of the. the links, , before you said, you know, it's, it's not a good idea to have this newsletter with a hundred links.

So is the idea then to just have one link per email that used to be the, when I studied email marketing, that used to be the message. Is that still the case or how do we 

Emily: approach links? Yeah. I mean, I would, you know, depending on what's in your email campaign or your newsletter, , you know, just being really intentional about putting links in your email.

So, you know, if you are, you know, writing on a piece of thought leadership, right? If you're talking about something in your industry, if you have. Relevant to that piece that people might find helpful then, yeah. You know, hyperlinking it in the text saying, you know, if you need more help with this here's this resource.

And then, to help [00:20:00] you with conversions have. Between one. And at the end of your email have one between one and three calls to action that are related to helping guide people through your sales process. So whether that's, Hey, if you need more help around this topic here, here is, , a list, another resource mm-hmm

if you wanna talk about this topic more, here's how to get in touch with somebody mm-hmm . And, , or here is another piece of content that will help with this, right. Making sure that you're really intentional about, , guiding people through your sales process, and relating it back to how you're helping them in adding value.

, I think that is, it's just being really, really intentional about what your goals are. For your emails, what your subscriber's goals are and marrying those two with, , guiding [00:21:00] them through your sales process. What's the next action they need to take in order to get help, right? Yeah. 

Sarah: Yeah. I get that. , We used to also say that the PS in the newsletter that like sometimes people read the, the subject line and then they, you know, scroll down and, and so the PS had this big importance.

Would you still recommend putting something in the PS as well? 

Emily: Yeah. And that's where those three calls to action to live. Yeah. And bullet rate those don't make it a long block, a big block of text mm-hmm bullet. So they're easy to scan and read. 

Sarah: Okay, great. And is there a difference between a hyperlink and a button link?

Like is there stats that show the people click more than one or the other. 

Emily: It I've seen stats very widely on that. And I think it depends on your, the kind of campaign you're running. I recommend, you know, at least [00:22:00] having one bold call to action with a button, , unless your email template is more of a letter format, then that might not make sense, right.

With the, with the style and feel of the email. Mm. And then, you know, having some hyperlinked links in your text, if it's relevant and it's not a distraction for your subscriber, if it will help them and guide them further down their sales path. 

Sarah: Hmm. Yeah. I'm also thinking you just mentioned design, like back in the days we used to have, or some people still have that, like the header and then the signature block, and it looks like this branded email.

Right. , but then there was a trend where people were saying actually, what works better is just like text that looks just like any regular email. What do you recommend to your clients? 

Emily: Yeah, I mean, it depends on the business. Again, I've seen, I've [00:23:00] tested those kinds of templates and results have varied widely mm-hmm I've seen a lot of success with text based emails.

It's a really good place to start. It's a lot, it's a lot lighter load on somebody. Building emails. And I think that's definitely something you have to consider. Yeah. If you don't have a designer on a dedicated designer on your team or they're stretched really thin, , then, , yeah, it just bogs down the process.

And so, but some brands are very visual mm-hmm and that makes sense for them. Mm-hmm so I think, , again, I do a mix typically, depending on the type of campaign, but, , text very simple text formatting works really, really well. 

Sarah: Nice. Okay. The last topic I wanted to talk to you about, and, and you brought this up.

When we had an email exchanges, this idea of community building, so using email for community building, [00:24:00] and that is of personal interest to me because we, we have our humane marketing circle, our community. So, so yeah. What's your experience there? And, and how do we use email for community? 

Emily: Yeah. So I think, , you know, particularly in the last couple of years, you know, globally, we have seen a lot of, really hard things.

Right. And. . I have seen a lot of businesses really miss the mark on it. Hmm. And instead of taking it as an opportunity to address people's humanity and the very real anxieties and fears people are experiencing, they instead use it as an opportunity to just give updates about the company mm-hmm . And although that information can be really important.

I think that it. You know, ultimately human beings are emotional. We are emotional things who like to think we are [00:25:00] rational thinkers and, addressing people's emotions is just as important as educating them. Right. Mm-hmm because emotions can stop us, from doing the work right from showing up fully.

And so, , I have seen brands, Incredible strides with their audiences and really bond, with their brands and build community by addressing their emotional states, especially when it comes to public crises. So, I think it's I, and, and it doesn't have to be something that big, but really thinking about what are your people struggling with emotionally?

What anxieties do they have around the work that you're trying to help them do? , or. Personally, and really speaking to that, lets them know that you see them not only, or that, , you see them not just as a business [00:26:00] transaction, you see them as a whole human being and that builds trust and likability very quickly.

Yeah, 

Sarah: that reminds me of, , something I saw on LinkedIn. And I can't remember what brand it was, but basically it was mother's day and they were acknowledging that, you know, it being mother's day and usually there was like a mother's day sale and this was just after COVID and so they were acknowledging that.

, it probably was a difficult day for a lot of people who, well, they had lost their moms. Right. And so instead of just sending out another sales email, oh, happy mother's day, they addressed that. And there was a lot of, yeah. Very positive feedback. , and it was, you know, going viral on, on social.

Unfortunately, I don't remember that company name, but still, it was a really good example. 

Emily: Yeah, that seems to be a growing trend in email marketing, where people are very aware of, you know, mother's day and father's day. And these relationships can be very complicated. Yeah. Um, [00:27:00] and, you know, allowing people to opt out for that season, again, opting down instead of opting out, Addresses their emotions and makes them say, Hey, we know you're a human being too, like yeah, yeah.

Not just a potential dollar sign. Yeah. 

Sarah: Yeah. And, and I think it does this human side should really be. All over, you know, your emails, , especially for our listeners who are more like entrepreneurs. So entrepreneurs, coaches, consultants, you are the business, right? So it's all about community building for you.

Of course. Yes. It's also about selling, but it's. Much more about community building because that will lead to the sales. So, so that human aspect is, is so important. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I agree. Wonderful. Any, any final thoughts? Anything else that we didn't touch on that you wanted to add here to this wonderful [00:28:00] conversation?

Emily: Yeah. And I wanna address one specific, anxiety that I know that people experience with email and people get really anxious around hitting that send button. , and because, you know, we wanna be, we wanna do it right. We wanna do it. We wanna make sure we didn't do any errors or typos or wrong links.

And I just wanna let people know that the next time you make an email mistake, we've all done it. , I've done it. , more than once and done it with teams who have five people reviewing the email. And so, , just wanna let you know. It's never gonna be perfect. And again, people appreciate the humanity sometimes and sending out that oops, email afterwards where addressing the mistake, , sometimes those do even better than the email you intended to send out that day.

Yeah. So, , nobody's perfect and we're all just doing our best. And so, um, I wanna make sure people know that, , to not let that get in the way of sending out that next. [00:29:00] 

Sarah: Yeah. In fact, it really shows you, which people should not be on your list are the ones that, you know, point out that you have misspelled this or that word or that, you know, I'm like, you know what?

Yeah. Can be bothered. Exactly. 

Emily: They're trying to get along. Exactly. 

Sarah: Yeah. I'm just, you know, a one woman show here. So I don't have time to like, yeah. People sometimes suggested that I have a, you know, someone edited my emails and, and I'm like, look, it's pretty clear that English is not my mother tongue. I'm not gonna hire a copy editor for each email.

that's just not gonna be authentic anymore. But yeah. I think you're right. It is. Idea for perfections that we have to overcome first. And then, and then eventually you get to the point where you're like, you know what? Yeah. Things happen. Yeah. Let it go. Yeah. [00:30:00] Wonderful. Well, Emily, why don't you share, with people where, they can find you and maybe you have a, a free giveaway.

Well, as well that they can download, tell us 

Emily: all. Yeah, so you can, I'm pretty active on LinkedIn. I like sharing things about email marketing there. You can find me on LinkedIn, , Emily McGuire, and also, you know, I'm the cur I'm the current customer evangelist at AWeber, which is an email service provider.

And, we do have free accounts. So if you're looking for a new email service provider, feel free to head over to E aweber.com and check it out. 

Sarah: Wonderful. Yeah. I used to, , use AWeber , when was that? Before I switched to active campaign and then to Kajabi, but I think if I had to switch again, I would probably go back to AWeber.

It's a, it's a really good service. So, , yeah. Thank you. The last question that I always ask all my guests is what are you grateful for this week? Or 

Emily: today? Today. I am grateful for [00:31:00] sunshine. I've been getting over a cold and so I've been inside a little too much. And so this morning, even though I'm not feeling a hundred percent, I'm like, I was like, I'm taking a walk around the block and I'm gonna get some sunshine gonna get that vitamin D in.

Yeah, definitely. Especially, you know, in I'm in Michigan, in the us. And we have very long winters, so I'm soaking it up while I've got it. . 

Sarah: Wonderful. Yeah. Wishing you a speedy recovery. Take care of yourself and thanks so much for your 

Emily: time here. Thank you.

On the last episode of the podcast (episode 146) we talked about quitting Social Media and growing it without those platforms.

Well, today, we take the Digital Minimalist approach. It's the approach I'm adhering to, as I'm still present on LinkedIn and really focusing my time and efforts on that one platform.

I invited Cassie Widders, who is a social media strategist who works with personal brands and service-based business owners to simplify their social media to talk to us about creating a strategy with focus and minimalism.

Cassie is known for her work on digital minimalism, social media and its effects on our wellbeing, and in making social media strategies more sustainable for personal brands and business owners.

In this episode, you'll learn about the minimalist approach to social media strategy as well as...

 

• The digital minimalism framework and what it means
• How we can be both present on Social Media, but also be a minimalist
• What our definition of success has to do with it
• Cassie's explanation of a seasonal business
• How such a minimalist strategy on the Socials could look like
• And so much more

Cassie's Resources

 

Cassie's Website

Cassie's Podcast: The Social Self Podcast

Sarah's Episode on Cassie's Podcast

Connect with Cassie on:

LinkedIn

Instagram

 

Sarah's Resources

Watch this episode on Youtube

(FREE) Sarah's One Page Marketing Plan

(FREE) Sarah Suggests Newsletter

(FREE) The Humane Business Manifesto

(FREE) Gentle Confidence Mini-Course

Marketing Like We're Human - Sarah's book

The Humane Marketing Circle

Authentic & Fair Pricing Mini-Course

Podcast Show Notes

We use Descript to edit our episodes and it's fantastic!

Email Sarah at [email protected]

Thanks for listening!

 

After you listen, check out Humane Business Manifesto, an invitation to belong to a movement of people who do business the humane and gentle way and disrupt the current marketing paradigm. You can download it for free at this page. There's no opt-in. Just an instant download.

Are you enjoying the podcast?  The Humane Marketing show is listener-supported—I'd love for you to become an active supporter of the show and join the Humane Marketing Circle. You will be invited to a private monthly Q&A call with me and fellow Humane Marketers -  a safe zone to hang out with like-minded conscious entrepreneurs and help each other build our business and grow our impact.  — I'd love for you to join us! Learn more at humane.marketing/circle

Don't forget to subscribe to the show on iTunes or on Android to get notified for all my future shows and why not sign up for my weekly(ish) "Sarah Suggests Saturdays", a round-up of best practices, tools I use, books I read, podcasts, and other resources.

Raise your hand and join the Humane Business Revolution.

Warmly,

Sarah

Imperfect Transcript of the show

We use and love Descript to edit our podcast and provide this free transcript of the episode. And yes, that's an affiliate link.

Sarah: Hi, Cassie. So good to speak to you today. 

Cassie: Hey, thanks so much for having me. Yeah. [00:07:00] I'm 

Sarah: so excited to have this conversation. I recently, I've had a lot of these swaps, you know, where I'm on a podcast and then I have we exchange and, and you are now on mine and it's, it's just such a way, great way of doing things, because once you feel like, okay, I found somebody that I'm really aligned with, why not, you know, help each other out.

And, and instead of accepting one of. Pitches and you're like, eh, it doesn't feel, really feel like a 

Cassie: good fit so, um, yeah, 

Sarah: super excited to, to have you here. And of course we'll link to the interview, the episode on your podcast, as well. So excited to have you here and talk about social media.

, and it's funny, cuz I'm just preparing, , an Encore of a workshop, called grow your business without social media. And so thanks for 

Cassie: seeing that yeah. So of course, this is 

Sarah: great to have you here, to talk about. Social media, but I think a very [00:08:00] different approach to social media, right? So you call yourself also a digital minimalist.

So we're definitely gonna dive into that, but maybe first, tell us a little bit how you are different compared to, you know, the traditional social media strategist. 

Cassie: Yeah. I think the biggest difference is I help people be on social media, less . And I think as a social media strategist, people are always a bit confused about that.

But what I kind of like about my work is I understand the good and the bad from having worked in it. I've been in this industry for over eight years, working on strategies for businesses. I feel that there is so much potential with technology and social media, but I obviously understand the harm. So I come at it by saying, okay, if, if I know the intricacies of strategies for businesses, for social media, how can I help you do it in a way that works for you and your wellbeing as well?

Cuz [00:09:00] I've previously when I was in this industry before I. Help people be on social media less. I was very much in the field of, okay. I know how to make it a successful social media strategy. Mm-hmm , here's the formula let's go or let's do it. And I was just seeing a lot of my clients and, and business friends and everything.

Just get really overwhelmed with that and burnt out and. You know, it's a lot, it's a lot of content, a lot of rules of, you know, show up, be consistent, you know, all these kind of things. And, , yeah, now I help people still have a successful business, but. In a way that works for them. So I kind of think of myself, like on a mission to help people, business owners or personal brands or founders be more intentional with their time online.

 Because I truly, truly, truly, truly believe that you can be present on social media and in real life, like that's kind of a mantra that I do kind of live by. , so yeah, so I create social media strategies, [00:10:00] but I also Inc. Digital wellbeing into that. So we get results, but you're also intentional with your time online and you have a healthier relationship with your phone as.

Mm. Yeah. 

Sarah: I love that. And so needed. I think, , I, I, I think we're reaching some kind of tipping point. That's why I, or that's what I noticed with putting out this podcast. And that's why I'm, I'm sorry to the workshop, uh, to grow your business without social media. And that's why I'm doing a. An Encore because there was a lot of interest.

People are like, we're tired of constantly having to create content, constantly being there com commenting and replying to messages and things like that. So I, I think we're reaching this tipping point wherever we're like, okay. Yeah. It's here to stay. We got somehow learn how to, you know, do business with.

Maybe I'm still putting a, maybe next to that, because maybe you can grow a business without it. , but for those who are actually like, okay, I [00:11:00] like it, you know, it's not like I don't like it. But in a healthy way. And, and I, I love that you're offering that to your clients. You also talk about, digital minimalism on your, on your website and.

That you kind of build the, the social media strategy on the basis of these principles of digital minimalism. So tell us a bit more about it. , I, I haven't in a while, but I've been listening in the past to the digital minimalist. Podcast or can I remember two guys in the us who were like, they called themselves the, the minimalists, I think.

Yeah. And, you know, who I'm talking about and, and yeah, definitely fascinated by, by that movement. Can't say that I'm following it. Exactly. But I do like the idea and one of my favorite business books is essentialism, which is kind of similar, you know, it's like, you just do the things that.

Essential. So tell us more about these principles of [00:12:00] digital minimalism. 

Cassie: Yeah. It's kind of the same thing as that, you know, like, so I first came across this a few years ago when I read the book digital minimalism by Cal port. And, , it's a fantastic book and I highly, highly recommend it. But what I got frustrated with is.

Cal Newport is a very accomplished, amazing academic, but he's also someone who's never had a social media platform in his life. He goes on them occasionally for research, but as a user, he's never had one. And so the book, the philosophy behind it is fantastic. You know, , I've got a quote, which I'll, , say, which is from.

The book itself or what Cal defines as digital minimalism, which is a philosophy of technology usage in which you focus your online time on a small number of selected and optimized activities that strongly support the things you value and then happily miss out and everything else mm-hmm . And you know, that sounds great.

I know for [00:13:00] you. And I were like, yes, that sounds really good. Mm-hmm but what was quite frustrating was. It kind of leaves out the benefits of technology and social media and what it can do, whether that is connection, community, , support, creativity, all the things that you are able to do, whether it's make a living express yourself, find like-minded people.

and it was very much a, okay. Have a digital detox, change the notifications on your phone, all absolutely valid and essential things to protect your wellbeing. Of course. But I was like, well, where does this leave business owners? You know, we can't just, well, I'm gonna get rid of. Instagram for six months. I mean, you can, but on the whole, when you're looking at an actual practical framework to market your business, it, it didn't really apply.

It was more for people who are not running the business. So. With that I was like, right. Okay. There must be something that I can learn from this philosophy, [00:14:00] take things out of it and adapt it for businesses. And that's what I've been working on for the last few years. So my work helps you do exactly what the definition is, you know, which is to use technology, to support the things you value and miss out on everything else.

So I help businesses be intentional with their time online. Streamline and simplify their social media strategy so that it just focuses on the small number of activities that essentially give them the best return on their investment. Mm-hmm so the whole goal is to improve their business and their wellbeing.

So we essentially are minimalists for their marketing. That that's what I do is help them declutter that prioritize streamline and focus, but they have. There are processes they have to do in order to accept. That's what they're gonna miss out on, because that is the big thing of like, how are we going to prioritize?

How are we going to determine what to take out, what to focus [00:15:00] on? And I, the way that I work, that the kind of framework that I work on is we merge your business goals, your lifestyle goals and your social media goals. And we put all them together because I, what I found is that a sustainable social media strategy.

You can't have one, if it goes against your lifestyle and your enjoyment of things. Cause you know, the one biggest concern people have is now I can't be consistent or, oh, I have to show up today. Or, and then you realize I haven't posted in a while and I'm thinking, okay, if these are the common issues people are having, what is the friction there?

Why, why is there a barrier? And that is because it's not in line. With their enjoyment, their skills, their strength, their lifestyle goals. So I'm gonna pause you there, 

Sarah: Kathy. Cause I wanna go into that, go for it. But I also wanna just kind of go back to, , Cal Newport and, and his work and kind of this, Yeah, the theory of, you know, digital MI minimalism and, and [00:16:00] then actually the practicality, if you're starting out as a small business owner right now, it always kind of, , bothers me a little bit is when these accomplished people say, oh, you know, I have a business and I don't use social media.

I don't even check my email. They have a big team who, you know, sometimes even the team is on social media. , and so they manage it for them or maybe, okay. They're not at all on social media, but they, , have, they have such, of fame that they can be on these big podcasts. And, you know, they have a book who's selling thousands of copies, things like that.

And so it's. To me sounds kind of phony when they're saying, oh, I don't need, you know, please don't use social media. You're like, yeah. But how did you get to that point? You know, you nowadays, it it's a good tool to help you grow to a certain, , level in, in business. , just curious what, 

Cassie: what you [00:17:00] think about that.

I'm like a hundred percent on the same page and I've listened to so many of these, like. Very intriguing podcast titles of like quit social media, or you don't need social media. And there's always someone who's got three books under their belts or, you know, such a huge platform already where yeah, they are going on the biggest podcast ever, and even being on TV.

And they've got such a profile or they're rising for the New York times and it's like, Fantastic. But you, I can't relate to you like you it's aspirational. Absolutely. But it's not practical. So I'm a hundred percent. Yeah. Feel exactly the same with that. And that's, that's the reality, isn't it? Those people I have yet to meet people who have not.

Who are not at that stage who say that you don't need social media at all? Mm-hmm yeah. 

Sarah: I would love for you to join the workshop because the, the co-host that I'm doing that with , is. with guy who's who's in, , the UK and she actually [00:18:00] says, no, I built my business without social media. And so I feel like, okay, you know, it's great to bring someone on like that.

Who's like, no, there is. And, and certainly enough, you know, there's. Been a time where we didn't have social media and I I'm sure people build businesses all the time, but I agree with you now that we're in this age and all these tools exist, , why not learn to use them in a, in a healthy way. Right. So let's go back to what you were talking about, the lifestyle, the goals.

And then when I kind of heard you say is like, well, what we first need to work on is your definition of success, right? Because that's another thing we are being fed on social media as well. And maybe from other people that we listen to is like, well, we have to have a certain business. , and so maybe it's time to actually, , look at that.

So tell us how you work with, , your clients on, on that definition of. 

Cassie: Yeah, that [00:19:00] that bit is always the first piece of work. Because if, if our goal is to remove things, as we are building a strategy, and to completely minimize what we're working on, you need to know what you're working towards. And often I've had.

Situations in the past where people have ideas of what their lifestyle wants to be, what their business wants to be and what they wanna do on social media. And they don't align. , I remember one of the, the catalysts for me changing this was, I was working with a lady who she wanted community. She was all about community and I was like, fantastic goal.

Okay. Right. And we dug into deeper as to what that man did everything, but essentially she's like, I just wanna thrive in community. So she's like talking about Facebook groups, talking about the interactions she was gonna have and all these. and then we looked at what her business goal was and what her lifestyle goal was.

And when I [00:20:00] talk about lifestyle goals, I'm talking about that may be financial. It might be time. It might be where you want to be spending your energy. There are different things. And this woman in particular, she really wanted to have a cutoff point when she was on offline, when she was online, so that she was present for her kids' bathtime and meal times was with her family.

She's like, I don't want it to be. This thing where I'm getting notifications in the evening, where I'm checking my phone, where I'm answering things, you know, I want to be very present for my kids and for my partner. I was like, fantastic. And then we dug into, okay, but if you want this community, what does that look like?

In reality? Like what are the hours that are gonna be dedicated to this? And she wasn't in a position to outsource this and you cannot also argue that that's probably not the most authentic thing to do as well. , so she was in a position where she realized, okay, I'm gonna have to [00:21:00] dedicate so much time to building.

Idea of a community that I wanted, and that is not in line with my lifestyle goals. So what would've happened had we pursued, had I ignored the lifestyle goals and just gone on to her social media goals. It, would've got to a point where she would not have continued to build that community because she, she wanted, , screen free time in the evening or.

Even worse. She would've round continued to build this community and sacrificed that time of being present with her family. And either one of them is not good, you know, it's not sustainable and it doesn't make you fulfilled and happy because it's at odds with your lifestyle goals. And because social media is never.

It's 24 7 and it doesn't sleep. And because it's on your phone and it's all encompassing like these are, I, I just can't see how you can't merge the two, because it does become part of your life. Especially as personal brands, we are sharing our lives, our thoughts, we are putting ourself out there in a very visible way.

So [00:22:00] it needs to get, be in line with what your definition of success is, whether and that merges your lifestyle goals, your business goals and your social media goals. So, what did you 

Sarah: end up doing with this lady who, you know, wanted both? She's like, I want the community, but I also want the cutoff point.

What, what was. 

Cassie: I did to her. I did to her what I do to everyone. Like my, the way I see my work is my job is not to tell you, okay, this is what you should do. My job is to inform you of, okay, this is your choice. If you were to build your. Definition of community as it is right now. Cuz we did end up changing what her definition of community was.

But initially I was like, if you want this version of your community, then you will have to work X amount of hours in order to see that come to light for the next, however many months that would be, or you could not have. And you would have your time at home and you would [00:23:00] build this version of a community.

And then that is, that is my job because then it's up to the individual to choose what they want, because everything, I, I really get frustrated when it's a. The marketers say that there's, you know, you can have it all. I was like, I just don't think that's very realistic. You know, there's we only have so many hours in a day, so many skills that we have, and of course we need to lean into them, but we need to prioritize.

We need to compromise. We need to understand what is more important to me and how do I get there? Now, what we did end up with this lady is we changed what that community looked like. It wasn't. Full force. I wanna grow it at, to in this amount of months, it was a slow and steady build with less fewer platforms.

So it could have been so much more quicker, but we just adjusted what that, , goal was to make it fit into her lifestyle, which gave her some breathing space. I love 

Sarah: that. I love that you picked that [00:24:00] story. We could have, cuz it could be me. It could be my story. Right? , the, the humane marketing circle is the community that I know.

That's my thing that I wanna grow. And yet, , yeah, I, I don't want to spend hours and hours. And I also know that, you know, the, this kind of community, , is not the one where you. People just join because I'm constantly PO posting quotes on Facebook. So I had to also think about that as like, okay, this is gonna be a slower growing community, but it's gonna be fine because it's the thing that I'm gonna do for the next 10 years.

And, and so it really coming it's scary in a way, right. Coming close to that because all, all you hear everywhere. It's. Scale fast and you know, how can you get a hundred members in three months and, and all, and so sitting there and going, okay, here's what I want, my lifestyle goals. And, and that, that, that, that [00:25:00] then means that you have to kind of revisit your.

Idea of success for your business goal. That's kind of like, yeah. It's, it's not easy. And I, I can see the benefit of having a partner like you to talk through this and not be alone and go, why isn't this thing growing? Do I have to do more? And it's a constant battle of do I put in more hours? Mm-hmm but N would you also agree that it's not necessarily because you put in more hours on social media?

That you are gonna get more members or more sales or clients or something. 

Cassie: Absolutely. Yeah. It's not just the hours. It's the energy as well. And, how that drains you. So yeah, part of my work as well goes into time, energy boundaries, skills, strengths, all of these things, because the foundation of what I do is return on investment and the investment is your time and energy.

and if you are putting something in to something that really energizes [00:26:00] you, that makes brings you joy, that you're you're good at. And you really enjoy. Then that is gonna be a smaller investment with a greater return. But if you are putting your energy and time into something, you're maybe your skills aren't aligned to and you don't really enjoy it, that's gonna be such a labor intensive investments are put in, and you're probably not going to see the result that you would like.

As opposed when you're jumping into something with enthusiasm. So it's all about balancing that return on investment. Yeah. 

Sarah: I love that. On your site, you also say that you have a seasonal business and you know, we're in the middle of summer. And I also kind of work around the seasons and I summer is my favorite season.

So I really make sure that I have lots of time off you're. One week away from a big move as well. So, , does that also play into how you, , kind of built your business around the seasons and maybe also the location? 

Cassie: Yeah. Yeah. [00:27:00] We're moving to bonier in a week, which is crazy. Yeah, so there's, I built my seasonal business originally because I worked with a coach, And we, she helped me craft this because I found that my, my husband's a teacher and he would have these lovely long summers off.

And summer's also my favorite season and you know, the sun shining and you're locked in your dark office and you're like, oh my gosh. , so he would come in and I'd be like, Sunny out. You wanna come out and, you know, I've got flexibility. I've got all this, cuz I run my own business, but the reality is I still need to work.

Right. So I always was had this like friction of either saying no to him or saying yes. And what I ended up doing is okay, I've got immense privilege for being able to take that time off, but I would then work 12, 14 hour days afterwards to make up for. And it just was just very all over the place. You know, sometimes I'd be out having a great time.

Then next day I'd be doing 12 hours. So, , essentially set up the seasonal business to, I closed my coaching program to new clients over the summer [00:28:00] because I found that out of all my services, my six months and three month coaching programs are very. Energy intensive. , as ever anyone knows who works with one-to-one clients on a long-term basis, you know, it's, you give a lot to them and you just, you are there for them throughout the whole time and while existing clients.

And I have, , a relationship and they know how things work and we're, we're on a momentum here and it's, it's fine. I found new clients were very, It was a lot of input straight away in order to get them set up and be there for them and get them to fully understand how I work, how our systems work and get the ball rolling.

So I thought, well, that is actually the, probably the biggest piece of work that I do that is very energy draining. So if I could remove that, I am. Doing a lot less work. That's some over the summer. And then the coaching clients I do have, you know, they won't all carry on throughout the whole summer. Some contracts might end, you know, [00:29:00] in July or June or something.

And then I'd, I wouldn't take any more on, so I. Now I just do my, , VIP days or intensive, when I feel like it, when I, well, or when I need to pay the bills or , or when I feel like I want to, , want to do more work and I have the time and that has allowed more, a lot more flexibility in the summer. So yeah, that's my seasonal business.

And. Obviously, it's a blessing now as I'm moving, cuz , yeah, I got a lot, lot to do. So , it's given me the space. What 

Sarah: about your social media? Do you maintain the presence over the summer? Because, I'm I chose basically to be present on LinkedIn and let go of all the other platforms. , and yet I still, and I even, you know, have, , 12 years of, , a LinkedIn consulting business behind me.

, but I still. Right now notice since I have shifted my approach to social media, I feel like this kind. Guilt, or almost a bit of shame when I look at the reach of my [00:30:00] posts, because obviously if you're not posting as often, , as you know, maybe before then the problem is as you know, the algorithms are like, you know, we can kind of forget about her and she's not there anymore.

So how, yeah. How do you deal with the algorithms? Really? I think that's 

Cassie: the. Question. Yeah. I have the same thing as you, thoughts of you with that, you know, and then again, it kind of what I did with that was again, go back to my definition of success and priorities and okay. My priority this summer is my, my lifestyle.

 And again, I know that's a huge privilege, but that's what I, , chosen to prioritize. So. When I do look at the posts, I do posts it and it, they're not as good as previously. Of course I feel the same. It does good little sting in there. And you're like, oh, and you know, because you know that God, I know how to fix this.

That's I have to be like, no, this is not a priority right now. And I think as long as I keep that alignment for my definition of success, they kind [00:31:00] of helps me sometimes . But in terms of that, what I do is I do try to, , prerecord podcasts. Mm-hmm therefore. I know that they're gonna come out throughout the summer and that means that's work that's already done, and I'm still gonna be visible and increase my brand awareness throughout the summer when I'm not as present.

And for my own contents, I've massively scaled it down. The only thing that does not change is my own podcast. , and that's because it's, well, I, I enjoy it, but also it's still quite new. So I'm still, , Getting that quite established, but everything else in terms of posting I've scaled it right back. I will normally post once or twice a week.

, and one of them is a podcast episode. , so in terms of original content, it might be once a week or it might not be. And I just go that way and I'm a firm believer. Working towards seasons and cycles when it comes to social media strategy. , I've got many clients who they really, they may want a, [00:32:00] give me a schedule, like what?

And I want to stick to that. That makes me feel calm. That makes me feel in control, but it's very, very unlikely that very, not very often that I come across a client that will keep that schedule forever. Because what happens is life happens and people, their moods change, whether that's, you know, for, for different reasons or anything, life happening or whatever, and their moods change.

And I really encourage people to lean into that. You know, if you feel that you wanna break, take a break, or if you feel that you've got more energy now, and you're feeling really creative. Up that ramp that up. If you feel life's very overwhelming and you wanna scale it back, scale it back. And I'm a big advocate for scaling back during the summer because people, your users, your audience have scaled back either because they're juggling kids now or in and work, or they're being pulled towards the out being outdoors versus here.

Everyone's like. Being pulled in different directions in the summer. [00:33:00] I feel so if, and the data also shows that people are less, engaged when the sun is shining. So I'm thinking take that. Why not use it as an opportunity and take that time to scale back for your own for yourself as well? Yeah, so that's kind of how I work in seasons with my own marketing.

Sarah: Mm. Yeah. Well, thank you so much for sharing that. The other thing you kind of talked about it is this whole idea of content creation, right? That a lot of social media strategists 

Cassie: talk about, 

Sarah: repurposing and, you know, you have to have your content calendar, , yeah. This whole idea of. Having a month's worth of content ahead of time.

, I think we hear that message a lot. Is that also what you are suggesting to your clients? I heard you say, okay. Scale it down in the summer, but what about the rest of the year is, is that still the message that we, , that we need to apply in, in 

Cassie: social media? Yeah. So honestly, , it is dependent completely on [00:34:00] individual.

I have some clients that want to feel more in control of it and I would on the whole. I would recommend planning at least a fortnight in advance, just because you, you, you do wanna move your clients through a journey like throughout this, the different seasons of your marketing calendar, you will have things that you want to promote.

You will have times when, , yeah, you have a workshop going on or you want to promote this one to one service or whatever that is. Therefore of course your, the strategy behind that needs to align with that goal. And by. Having something in advance. You're not, you're not able to take a step back and look at that holistically and go, am I actually moving people down that journey?

So of course I would always ad advise that. But I think the thing that I always come back to as well is if you don't enjoy this, if you're not feeling joy and passion for what you're creating, you're not going to do it. Therefore, if, if I get you. [00:35:00] Take suck the life out of it as you will, then you're not gonna do it.

I'd rather you do something than do nothing. So if it feels, if you feel like that is becoming draining for you, that's prescriptive. , this is the rules. This is how you do it. The guidelines of what you should be doing. Throw that out the window, just for three, six weeks, whatever that means and lean into joy, because that is how you're going to be consistent.

Consistency doesn't mean, you know, having it doesn't mean posting on Tuesdays and Thursdays and Fridays every week. It consistency means. Just maintaining a visible presence and that can fluctuate. But as long as you're maintaining a presence online, you are being consistent. And sometimes that may mean that you are posting once a week.

Sometimes that means you are posting four times a week or whatever that is, but I really do believe that if you take away the joy, then you're not going to post at all. And that's even more damaging to [00:36:00] your, , strategy long. Yeah. I'm so glad 

Sarah: you, you mentioned that because I, I did notice myself, like during this summer, Most of the time I was looking at my LinkedIn feed and I'm like, I don't even wanna talk business in the summer.

I'm like, can I just talk about the different flavors of ice cream and , and I guess I could have posted that, but I'm like, no, I'm just, I just wanna share that with my family and not post that on, on LinkedIn or, or any other platform. And so, so yeah, it it's really also the moods change, right? It's like, it's these fluctuations where it's like, no, I'm not in.

Business is smooth right now. So yeah. I'm so glad you're, you're , helping your clients respect that and say, yeah, it has to be joyful because otherwise, yeah, you're not doing it at all. , I have my, my, , virtual assistant Mara, , always help me with, posting something personal, , on Mondays, cuz it.

Something that [00:37:00] I, as a, you know, introvert, I'm like, it just doesn't come natural to me, but once I post it and, you know, take a picture or something, then I actually enjoy the interactions. And so I need that kind of extra, , reminder. She just kind of gives me this gentle nudge and I'm like, okay. Yeah.

And, and then sometimes I don't, sometimes I'm like, I really don't feel like it. just, yeah. 

Cassie: And that's okay. That's totally okay. And if that, if you are leaning into that's how you're able to maintain visibility, right. Because you have lean into that a bit more. Yeah. 

Sarah: Well, this has been really great. Any.

First steps for people who kind of want to get started on this road of digital minimalism with, with their social media, what would you 

Cassie: recommend? They do? I'd really recommend reading the book by Cal Newports. Digital minimalism, , like I said, it's not really created for businesses, but the philosophy behind it is really interesting.

 And then. If you are just starting out, like [00:38:00] the big question is always, you know, how can I remove anything? That's not supporting my definition of success. And in this context, we're talking about technology specifically social media, but that can feel like a very big question, like, gosh, okay, where do I start?

 To me, I would just start small, you know, so what platforms are not giving you that return on investment? And again, we're talking as the investment of energy and time, and the return is, you know, the goals. Are you reaching those goals for what you're putting in? Now you either, if you feel like, no, it's not.

And let's use LinkedIn as an example, you know, you're putting all this time and energy into it. You're not seeing the return. Of course you can remove it. And that is something that you should trial and maybe try it for six weeks, see how it goes. Try it for another six weeks, see how it goes. And then you can get a clearer picture.

Is this really damaging my business or is it not? And I can assure you that six weeks is not going to, completely tarnish your business. So it's totally fine to experiment with that, but also if you [00:39:00] feel like, okay, I dunno if I'm ready for that big step of removing a platform. Okay, can you change the way that you create content?

So if you find that, you know, writing is a big drain, it's not your skillset. It's not something that you enjoy. So therefore writing articles for LinkedIn is becoming really heavy for you. Could you change it and go, I really enjoy conversations. I might do a live series or a video series, and that is easier for me to create.

It's more joyful and monitor the return on that. And it's just about. Balancing what you're putting in and what you're getting out. And it doesn't always have to mean taking something away. It's just changing it to a way, something that is easier and less of an investment for you. Mm-hmm . Yeah. I 

Sarah: love that.

And, and, and so good that you call it experiments because I think that's exactly what it is. It's like, well, try it. You know, I, I did that with my podcast. [00:40:00] I, you know, everybody says you have to have at least one episode per, per week. And it, I just noticed it became this factory of, you know, creating podcasts.

And then I started accepting guests that I probably didn't align with a hundred percent. And so I'm like, no, I need to give myself permission to just slow it down and only do two podcasts per month. And I did that. And then, you know, Don't usually look at the numbers, but I thought, okay, it's been six months.

Let me look at the numbers. The numbers didn't change. Like, wow, the downloads didn't change. And I was like, well, there you go. You know, it was an experiment and it worked and, and I bet you that, , You know, the same thing could happen on one of the social media platforms. If you just say, let me experiment and pause this one and see, you know, because in the end, the reason you're doing it for is for income, right?

That's in the end, what we're trying to measure here. And, and [00:41:00] if that doesn't change anything, then, then. And yes, I agree. It's always, you know, take something off first, but then that frees up energy so that you can actually experiment with something else that gives you more joy. 

Cassie: Understand. Yeah. About you changing up your podcast schedule, you made it sustainable because probably would've happened.

If you didn't change that schedule. You may have stopped doing it altogether. Yeah. And then that's part of it. Mm-hmm yeah. You've lost your podcast, but by changing it and then going, you know what, I'm gonna lean into what feels better to me, I've managed to keep it going and that. Is the win because you are maintaining another platform that you enjoy and is bringing your return.

So it's, I feel like a lot of people do feel that paralysis of, you know, it's like the sun cost fallacy. Right. You know, I've put so much into it. I don't wanna change it, but actually you have to think as a sustainability of it and by changing it, you will have more time to do it better. [00:42:00] And, um, yeah, really see the return.

Yeah. 

Sarah: This is so good. 

Cassie: Thank you so much, Cassie. Oh, thank you for having me. You tell people, 

Sarah: uh, where they can find you and, and, , yeah. How to connect with you. 

Cassie: Yeah. So my website is Cassie widows dot code UK. And you find me on LinkedIn, Cassie widows and, , Instagram the same as well. Yeah, and I have the podcast called the social self podcast where I had Sarah on and we talk about how to be more intentional with your time online.

, but yeah. Thank you so much, Sarah. It's been a pleasure to talk to you. Thank you for having me. 

Sarah: Yeah, thank you. I have one last question that I ask all my guests and that is what are you grateful for today or this week? An important week just before you move. 

Cassie: Yeah, I was thinking about this. , so I think I'm grateful for.

Choice, like the privilege of choice. That is something I really do live by because it's not about, for me personally, it's not [00:43:00] freedom or flexibility or anything. It's the choice to have that, the choice to work, the choice to, , work less the choice to move the choice and I'm moving to Borneo. And the, yeah, that's what I'm most grateful for is that I have choice.

Mm, 

Sarah: wonderful. Yeah. I like choice too. I think we all do and, and choosing to have you on the podcast versus, you know, someone who's pitching me about how they built their six figure business in three weeks. so, yeah, it would've, 

Cassie: I think it would've hit the wrong note with you. Yeah. yeah. 

Sarah: Well, stay in touch.

Okay. Thank 

Cassie: you so much for being here. Thank you, Sarah. It's been a pleasure. Really appreciate it.

Today I'm talking to Viv Guy about growing your business without social media.

Viv is a business coach, mentor, strategist, and the host of the podcast Marketing Without Social Media. Viv is passionate about helping service-based business owners create recurring 5k+ months, WITHOUT social media (bye-bye hamster wheel of content!), having created her first successful biz in her 20s without it. The best bit; doing it all in just 20 hours a week!

In this episode, you'll learn about growing your business without social media as well as...

 

• Why Viv thinks there's a growing interest in ditching Social Media
• If not Social Media, then what? Viv's ideas to grow your business without it
• Her 3 favorite ways of growing without social
• How to get traffic to our free offers to get people on to our email list
• Advantages of email vs. Social Media
• How Viv thinks Social Media will evolve in the next 5 year
• And so much more

Viv's Resources

 

Viv's Website

Viv's Podcast: Marketing Without Social Media

Viv's Free Guide: 21 Ways to Get Clients Off Social Media

 

Sarah's Resources

Watch this episode on Youtube

(FREE) Sarah's One Page Marketing Plan

(FREE) Sarah Suggests Newsletter

(FREE) The Humane Business Manifesto

(FREE) Gentle Confidence Mini-Course

Marketing Like We're Human - Sarah's book

The Humane Marketing Circle

Authentic & Fair Pricing Mini-Course

Podcast Show Notes

We use Descript to edit our episodes and it's fantastic!

Email Sarah at [email protected]

Thanks for listening!

 

After you listen, check out Humane Business Manifesto, an invitation to belong to a movement of people who do business the humane and gentle way and disrupt the current marketing paradigm. You can download it for free at this page. There's no opt-in. Just an instant download.

Are you enjoying the podcast?  The Humane Marketing show is listener-supported—I'd love for you to become an active supporter of the show and join the Humane Marketing Circle. You will be invited to a private monthly Q&A call with me and fellow Humane Marketers -  a safe zone to hang out with like-minded conscious entrepreneurs and help each other build our business and grow our impact.  — I'd love for you to join us! Learn more at humane.marketing/circle

Don't forget to subscribe to the show on iTunes or on Android to get notified for all my future shows and why not sign up for my weekly(ish) "Sarah Suggests Saturdays", a round-up of best practices, tools I use, books I read, podcasts, and other resources.

Raise your hand and join the Humane Business Revolution.

Warmly,

Sarah

Imperfect Transcript of the show

We use and love Descript to edit our podcast and provide this free transcript of the episode. And yes, that's an affiliate link.

Sarah: [00:00:00] [00:01:00] [00:02:00] [00:03:00] [00:04:00] [00:05:00] [00:06:00] Hey 

Viv. So good to speak to you today. I look forward to our, I'm gonna just let in the listeners that were doing a double episode. So we're, we're recording first for my show. And then I'm gonna be recording one for your show. So yay. We get to hang out all morning. So welcome to the humane marketing podcast with, so 

Viv: I'm excited to have.

Thanks, sir. I'm so, so happy to be here. And one a morning, we've got how exciting is it's awesome. I think, you know, we're gonna come away from this, like bursting at the seams. I think there's so much energy and value that we take 

Sarah: exactly. And all these new ideas about social media and marketing and all of that.

So, 

Viv: yeah, I'm [00:07:00] really excited. 

Sarah: Cool. Well, let's dive right in. I, I, I have some big picture questions for you, but then also some nitty gritty, like, you know, how do we do this without social media? Because yeah, there's, there's obviously the big picture. So the that's kind of what I, where I wanna start. I, I feel like.

There's maybe some movements starting together with my humane marketing revolution. Maybe there's a movement also away from social media. Yeah. What do you see? What do you hear in the grapes? What's going on? 

Viv: Yeah. So I think you become more aware don't you have things are movements when you, you kind of embrace that yourself.

Mm-hmm . So for me, obviously, when I, I had the idea of, I want to go off social media entirely, right? You start kind of looking around who else is doing this? Am I crazy? you know, but it was great. Cuz the coach I was working with at the time, Greg Fon, he had, he would pivoted away from social media. So I was like, okay.

Greg can do it. And then I started looking around and came across [00:08:00] Leon Dawson, you know, who I made 11 million and doesn't use social media now and there's, and, you know, look around, there are so many people coming off, social media. So I kind of was like, okay, there are people moving away, but the big thing was.

Can can like younger businesses, newer businesses do it, you know? Cause I was seeing a lot of more established businesses doing it. Mm-hmm , you know, multi billion dollar businesses doing it, you know, makeup brands, perfect brands and, and Tesla and people like that. So I was like that. Mm. So I do think there is, I do think there's a movement is in answer.

The short answer is yes. I do think there is a, a movement away from social media. There's a lot, obviously that sits behind that and that the rationale mm-hmm, , I'm very logical. You know, so for me, I like to see a good return on my investment of my time and energy. And I didn't see that coming through social media also on a kind of more intuitive, emotional level.

I just didn't like social media. I've never liked social media. And it just never felt [00:09:00] right. And I fell into that trap with, with, with my second business, which was a personal brand photography of really, you know, listening to the experts out, out there who were, were saying, you know, you must use social media and you must be on it all time and you must be responsive and da, da duh.

And, you know, I just felt. I felt like I was in like social media prison. Like I just didn't have a choice, you know? And, and I had to do all of this stuff and it felt horrible. But I did it and I built a very successful business, but there was always a part of me that was like, I don't like this. And is there another way.

And then when I moved into. You know, very naturally into the, into the coaching world because I'd built a very successful business people saying, how did you do that? I, and what I was, you know, intuitively, I was like, I don't want to do this anymore. You know, instinctively, I was. I don't like it. It's not really providing me the return on investment cuz energetically, I didn't feel aligned, you know, with it.

So [00:10:00] obviously, you know, if you want to talk about sort of energy and what you put out, you're getting return. I just, wasn't seeing the, the return on investment for me in terms of leads. And I found it was so a big sort of energy drain and that's just not what I wanted to. So yes, I was like, there's gotta be another way.

And then I also found my clients were coming to me and I seemed to be attracting these clients who were. I don't like social media. I don't wanna use social media. Is there another way? And at that, that point, I had not gone entirely off social media. I was still using Facebook and Instagram, but I was attracting these people who were like, I don't wanna use social media.

Can you help me? And I wasn't putting that out there as a message at all, but obviously energetically, you know, and I'm not a woo person. I'm just gonna say this to everyone out there. I'm not, there is a big, you know, and I say that in the kindest possible way, you know, with affect. I'm not, you know, somebody who has studied and, and a lot of expertise and experience, but I have definitely embraced a lot more.

You know, woo. In the sense of really tapping into my intuition, you know, and, and my, [00:11:00] my instincts of what feels good. And, and I really do believe, obviously I was putting out this energy that was saying like social media sucks. It's not the right way to build your business. And I was attracting these people before.

And then obviously before I kind of made that decision to a really niche and too. How to market without social media. So that was a very long winded answer. yeah. Yes. There's a movement. 

Sarah: it's it's all good. It's all good. Then there's so many bits and pieces. And I wanna go back to one that stood out to me where you mentioned, you know, obviously it's easy for the big companies, the, the big corporations, or even the small business owners you mentioned Leon do and Daws.

She was on social media before, right? Mm-hmm, , she's built a, an empire on social media. So in a way it's like, oh, well it's easy for them to now say I'm going off social media because if, or, you know, the, the devil's advocate would say, well, they have already built an audience. So it it's, I think it's really relevant that you share.[00:12:00] 

We have built businesses before social media and kind of look at these cases and then also share your experience saying, well, I built a business now without social media, right. Because it's, it's everywhere. And so we're like, well, Yeah, but it seems like you have to do it in order to get some kind of audience.

It's almost like we have to unlearn everything we learned all the business advice and marketing advice. We, we got over the years, 

Viv: right? Yeah, yeah, absolutely. You know, and, and I built my first seven figure business without any social media and yes, I'm that old social media did not exist when that business launched.

Right. And it was never somewhere I needed to kind of go you know, Yeah, I just didn't do it then. And you look around. Yeah. As you say, then there's a lot of advice that says you have to use social media because, but we look at that and, you know, I had a great conversation when I had Leone Dawson on my show because she's obviously been in business quite long time now.

And when you, you know, when social media media first arrived on Facebook, first appeared, you know, you could put [00:13:00] one post out there. And it would get like 80 to 90% kind of reach and engagement on it. Mm-hmm , which was phenomenal. And year on year, it declined, you know? So you're having to put out more and more content to get any kind of engagement or reach.

Yeah. And I think there's a lot of very successful entrepreneurs and business owners out there who obviously. Kind of got on that Bandra and that social media marketing kind of, and took that opportunity that was there, which was great to market using social media at a time when it was very effective.

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. But that's what they're now kind of selling. 

Sarah: Yeah. And, and they're not telling you that now they have a team of 10 people who constantly create content and do all the social media management 

Viv: for you for that. And I, and I often wonder, you know, if they were to start a business right now, you know, in 20, 22 or, you know, it, what would they do?

Because it would not be, I'm not gonna say any, it was easy for them, but it would, it's very different, you know? [00:14:00] Horizon now in, in the marketing world. And I think it's, you know, you can become so far removed, you know? So when you are so successful, if you're still trying to kind of teach people who are early on, you're not kind of on the ground doing those kind of ground level Strategies.

So how can you then be kind of teaching? It just feels really misaligned for me sometimes that, you know 

Sarah: yeah. It's that cookie cutter approach. Oh, this worked for me. So I'm gonna teach you and make millions of dollars. you know, now that yeah. And it, yeah. There's no guarantee that it's gonna work for all these other people.

Viv: Yeah. And I think the big thing for me was always, you know, that it was missing. In all the courses and trainings I did and, you know, everything I invested in that nobody said what feels good to you. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And that was the one question that was missing until I worked with an amazing coach who was like, what do you want it to feel?

Like, what do you want it to look like? And I was like, oh, that's a choice here. Is it permission? 

Sarah: Yeah. It's just permission giving. Yeah. And I 

Viv: think, but I think for so many. Business owners. I, [00:15:00] I work with who come to me. They, they don't know, there's no awareness of other approaches to marketing because when we start a business, you know, most people start a business.

You know, whether you say you're a therapist or. Or you wanna be a business coach or whatever it is, you know, where have you already kind of been hanging out on a personal level when you maybe were in your corporate career? Mm-hmm on social media. So you kind of like, it's familiar, it's comfortable. So I'm gonna go there instinctively and automatically, and I'm not gonna explore those other options.

Yeah, because this feels like something that I could do and it's easy. And everybody says, you know, the noise out there face, you have to be there. you have to be there. And this is gonna be the easiest way to grow your business. And it's just not the case now, you know? Yeah. And there is so much, so much kind of data out there to kind of back this up that says this is not the most effective.

Way to build your business now and to grow your audience, you know, and, and what do we know? You know, we need, we need leads. We need an audience, you know, in order to get [00:16:00] clients and customers and doing it through social media, especially organically is not effective. And I was speaking to. And a, a Facebook ads manager last week who was very much working with small businesses.

And she said, honestly, I'm, I cannot sell what I do anymore, because I don't believe it's the right thing for small businesses. Because since the iOS changes last year, it's even harder now. And you know, you are, if you wanna spend 10 to 20 pounds per day on ads, You're just not gonna get the results, you know, so she was saying it like instinctively for her and intuitively it just didn't feel right to be selling that.

And so she's gonna come on the podcast and talk about that to people now that actually even the pay to play, you know, cause I've always said, you know, if you wanna do it, it's pay to play. But actually. It's paid to play. If you've got a lot of money to invest and a lot, you know, a lot of money to invest in it.

And also you have many other strategies supporting it. You know, you think about the big businesses out there. They are not just pushing out [00:17:00] paid ads. Now they are looking to other, other means of bringing in leads. 

Sarah: Yeah. Wow. Such a good example of a humane marketer and, and often you know, the way you come to humane marketing it is by kind of.

Tuning into your integrity and saying, can I still do this? You know, and for some people it might still work. She might still get clients and get paid, right? Yeah. But she can't sleep at night because she's like this, I know this is not working for my clients. They're just paying too much for the results that they're getting.

And, and I just saw stat also someone sharing on, on. Because that's kind of my turf, where, where I hang out in with LinkedIn ads, 90%, 97% of people don't click on the page that you want them to click on. So they never click over to your landing page. Wow. So the, this ad guy was saying the, the, the new way of looking at ads is kind of like looking at them as billboards.[00:18:00] 

So you engage with the O audience that. Already there in your network, you don't send them somewhere else and then try to sell them something there. Right? Yeah. That doesn't mean we make our content all look like ads, but we, you know, we engage differently. But, but yeah, like you pay tons and tons of money for these ads and they don't convert because nobody actually clicks on them anymore.

Viv: Yeah. It's you know, and, and it it's out there. The data, you know, the return on investment. It's it's, it's, it's low. It is low. Yeah. It's low, you know, and again, you've gotta have a lot of money and you want to have an ads manager because there's so many changes with algorithms and everything, you know, you could spend days just doing that.

Oh yeah. And you know, what's working this month might not work next month. So, you know, ads are a minefield of the, you know, minefield of their own. If you want to do that, but yeah, organically, I, I think there's just a whole reframing that I say to people, like, if you. For example, Facebook groups, because there is a big thing, you know, the [00:19:00] community aspect that, that, that people love with Facebook groups.

But, but what's happening is a lot of people are hanging out on, on Facebook and Instagram and places and trying to attract people into, into those kind of groups and communities. And that's really difficult. So I say to people look outside of social media, how can you bring people in to your world, into your email list first and foremost, cuz that's your valuable asset and.

If you want them to come hang out with you, sign, post them from your emails, come hang out with me on Instagram or Facebook group or whatever, but stop trying to build your audience like in, you know, on these social media platforms, build it, you know? Via an email list, as they say, cuz that is, you know, the gold, that's the pot of gold in your business.

And then direct them if that's what you want, because then they're gonna see more of you, you know, they're gonna see your emails more than they're gonna see that content. And that's a much better way to kind of bring people in. And you know, you dunno what's gonna happen. You don't own social media.

You know, we all know that. Yeah. I missed the blackout last year cuz it didn't affect me. But obviously I [00:20:00] woke up to, you know, lots of emails. We kind of didn't have social media have an email list, blah, blah, blah. You know, you don't own this. Yeah. And we're well aware of that. So I just say kind of flip your whole approach to how you are using social media, if you do want to keep using social media.

Yeah. So that you are not kind of, so, so kind of. In that world. I think that's the problem. We need to look outside and expand our, our vision beyond social media. And I, I think at the moment, a lot of people are kind of stuck and, and to that tunnel vision, that this is the only way. Yeah. 

Sarah: And, and I just wanna add, I'm kind of allergic to this term community on, you know, Facebook when it's.

It's not actually a community. It's more an audience for yeah. The guru to, you know, find clients. Yes. And, and, and it's a misuse, in my opinion of the word community, cuz a community is, you know, interconnected. It's not just connected to the guru who wants to sell to 

Viv: use. Yes. So a whole different story. I absolutely [00:21:00] agree.

And I've been reading the book you are invited by John Levy. Mm-hmm it's a great book and it talks about how. We need like actual connection with people like human connection, you know, and, and how you, we have, you know, we, we, we know more people in this digital era, you know, when we have connections, but we're not really connected and we're so much more isolated.

And I think this comes with this, this, this misconception of community, I'm part of a community, but actually. True communi very lonely. Yes. Very, yeah. Very isolating and lonely. So I, I, I absolutely agree with you on that. There's a whole episode just on, just on that. on that idea. Yeah, absolutely. So 

Sarah: people are probably just, you know, listening nodding saying yes, yes, yes.

But they will also wanna know, well, okay. If not social media, then what, okay. We heard you say, you know, we need an email list, but how do we get people on this email list? It's kind of. Probably feels like the chicken and the egg, so yeah. So yeah, [00:22:00] take us kind of through some pragmatic things on how to yeah.

Get more people on your email list because we still want to grow an audience that we can send these emails 

Viv: to. Absolutely. And this is the big thing that I mentioned, obviously that the Facebook and, and social media outage last year, and, you know, I'm gonna get on my soapbox for just a moment to say the thing that really railed me, waking up to those emails the next day was, you know, you need to have an email list.

You don't own social media and I'm like, we're not idiots. We all know this, but not one person offered the how, how do you build an email list? So I was like, do they even know the answer to this beyond social media? Cuz these were a lot of obviously like social media experts out there, experts. So. For me, I'm very much about the, the how and the practicality.

There is no secret here, you know, and I, I've obviously there's a guide that I've shared with you, given you the link for 21 ways. My favorite 21 ways to market without social media, there are hundreds. [00:23:00] 

Sarah: Yeah. And there's a great video on your website as well on the homepage where you take us through some 

Viv: of these things.

So, yeah, absolutely. And you know, and I, and I've offered like 21 ways for, for kind of people who are more service based business is cuz that's my area. Expertise mm-hmm but you know, project based businesses, there are additional ways as well. Anyway, so your 

Sarah: favorite. Three ways three, 

Viv: my favorite three ways again, for, for me personally.

And I just want you guys who are listening to take this, you know, don't just try and replicate me because I have a, my, you know, there are different marketing archetypes. So what works for me may not work for you. Depends on your business. Depends on who you are. And again, there's a whole, all that kind of.

Quiz and things you can do there to figure out who that is what that is. So for me, ways, I best way for me to grow my list. I collaborate in bundles. They're really great for me because I get to connect with other people. I build partnerships. So bundles for anyone out there, what is a bundle you're kind of going, Hey, I dunno what that is.

So this is where maybe. 20 businesses come together and they [00:24:00] put something in there. So a free course, a free ebook or something that they would normally charge for. And they all put some offering into, to this, this bundle bag basket, you know, virtual bag. And then what happens is everybody shares this with their own email list.

So you add value, you give a lot of value to your own audience saying, Hey, these are other things that could be really useful. And only obviously do bundles that, that, that have kind of collaborations and contributions from people who, who are gonna help add value to your audience. Yeah. And so, you know, you are sharing your offering and getting like your, you know, eyes on, on who you are and what you do.

You know, to 20 other people's audiences and it's, so is 

Sarah: this like a course or some kind of mini program that you're 

Viv: offering could be a course mini program. Ebook could be templates, you know, could be like the 20 emails you wanna send when you're launching something, whatever it might be. [00:25:00] So it's a great way to kind of look at that.

So for me, bundle's worked really, really 

Sarah: well. And are you usually the one organizing these bundles or once you organize one, then you. Kind of know the people and you get invited. How, how do you get started with 

Viv: bundles? Yeah. So you could organize a bundle. I did a, a bundle last year. But you can just contribute to bundles.

You don't have to ever run your own if you don't want to. And the great thing is kind of, once you get. And discover one. And how do you find them? Google, Google bundles, asking your networks, look around, check out emails. People are normally talking about them. So kind of find out who's run one. You'll have missed it, probably, you know, in terms of getting in that one, but getting in touch with them, like look at who else was contributing because most people kind of are on the circuit doing the rounds, you know?

So if that's a strategy that works you'll find people will generally be kind of contributing. Right in that same network and it opens up a lot of connections for you, you know, in terms of you can then collaborate and, and partner with people. One on [00:26:00] one, you can look at joint ventures. So it opens up many opportunities.

If, if you make the effort, because they're quite anonymous in the, the sense that you can just put your thing in and never speak to another person who's in that bundle. So, you know, utilize it either reach out to people, kind of say, Hey, we're both in the same bundle. I really like what you do think we've got some crossover, you know, so take it that step further.

Some people will, some, some bundle organizers will run like a zoom kind of session where you can all get to kind of connect and meet and greet, which is really nice to actually. Kind of hear from people and really say like, I agree. 

Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. I always recommend that when I'm on a summit, I'm like, let's connect with each other for the summit speakers, you know, how come, how come people forget that part.

It's such an important part because yeah. We are also. Of wanting to connect with peers and like-minded people. So, yeah. I agree with you. It's so great to, to have that [00:27:00] for bundles or summits or conferences as well. Yeah. 

Viv: Because you know, you get to hear more about the business and what, what it is they do, which, you know, when you kind of just see one offering in a bundle, you don't get the whole picture of that business.

So I think it's. Such a great way to, to do that. So if you are gonna run a bundle, I would highly recommend you do a zoom session where you can, you know, it doesn't have to be long, 30, 40 minutes where people can kind of just go round hot seat, introduce themselves. So bundles bundles are like a great, and the reason I like them is you get a really.

Great return on your investment. You can create one asset. So one mini course, one, you know ebook, whatever it is, and you can use it in many different bundles. So you do that piece of work once and you get to repurpose it. And that's a really great thing, you know, because we wanna, we don't wanna add and create lots of extra work for ourselves.

Yeah. And I would say if you wanna kind of go down that bundle route and that's gonna be a core strategy, have a few different offerings and you can just rotate them for different bundle. Just, just a follow 

Sarah: up question, like in terms of the [00:28:00] offering, what have you seen kind of the value? Is this something that's worth 50 bucks or 500 bucks or, or 

Viv: more?

It entirely depends on the bundle. And I don't think the value is the big pull for people. I don't think people kind of go, oh, this would cost me $500. I'm gonna go for that. It's really. Understanding who it's targeted at the audience mm-hmm and what are their biggest struggles? And this is where I have seen people say, well, I did a bundle and I didn't get any signups out and I 

Sarah: didn't create, so it was the wrong offer or the wrong 

Viv: audience, or yeah.

Or people downloaded it because they were kind of just going through the whole thing, downloading everything, and then they didn't get any leads from it. You know, if, if it's, if it's right and you have pitched it right, you should, you know, People joining your mailing list, you should get people then booking in to have like calls or conversations, or if you wanna do trick wire office, you should be, you know, that next step should happen.

And that's the process to kind of really look at. So, yeah. Bundles, I like for me works for me. And [00:29:00] then speaking, I love kind of guessing on people's podcasts and in, in kind of people's masterminds, really adding like value. And as you know, I can talk for a long time on my topic. So yeah, I really like to go in and guess speak and I think that adds a different level of connection as well, to, to bundles.

So bundles you've gotta out for me. I believe you've got a longer nurture. Kind of journey for those people that are coming in. Whereas when you go in and guest speak I think that's fast tracked as well. Hugely because obviously, you know, there's trust imparted there's so there's so much that comes with that.

So for me, guest speaking, I am really energized by having two-way conversations. And this is interesting cuz I, you know, my archetype is, is a salesperson or a persuader mm-hmm , it's a, is a slightly nicer way of putting, putting it. I think. Kind of salesperson brings with it, not always the best, the best vibes.

So, yeah. For me, It would, you know, for a persuader architect, people would always say, well, video's great for you, but I hated [00:30:00] video. I hated doing things like on my own because there was, wasn't the two way like exchange and the, that energy. So I found it really difficult. Whereas if I'm doing things like that, you know, now we're having a conversation video.

I just, it works so differently for me. It's a great way to do that. So yeah, I like that kind of interaction. I like to speak to people. And that's, I think my social media wasn't great for me. It just didn't feel like I was speaking to. Yeah, what's the third one. Oh, sorry. That was number two. Yeah. 

Sarah: Forgot.

I'm like waiting baby. wait, 

Viv: waiting, waiting, waiting. And the third one for growing audiences for me is is, is podcast podcasting. You know, so for me, I have my own podcast and I love that and kind of putting that out there. And it's an interesting one because it works in two ways. And as I say, it works for me, for my archetype.

It works in terms of it can bring in new audiences, but it's also fantastic for adding value and nurturing my existing audiences. So it works. It's like a double whammy. So you think, if you think about like, what is your intention when [00:31:00] you're using social media and you're trying to kind of give people value and stuff, but it allows an opportunity to go so much deeper than kind of like the odd post.

That's something that that's really effective. And the amount of people I get on calls with who wanna work with me and they say, oh, I've been listening to your podcast. You know? And I love it when people message, they go and I'm in California and I listen to your podcast and you know, I love it. And, and this is great, cuz you kind of seen that, that maybe people aren't, haven't been ready to work with you, but they've been getting this value from you and kind of understanding how that works in your, your marketing process is really effective.

So you can use it as a, a, a kind of lead generator and then as a nurture. Sort of a converter as well. 

Sarah: Yeah. It, it totally, it it's like in humane marketing, we, we're all about bringing more of you to your marketing and, and that's what you do in your podcast. You know, people really get to know you, your values, your worldview what you stand for.

Because you're not just in promotion mode all the time. I feel like on social media, a lot of people are kind of going [00:32:00] into promotion mode, right? Yeah. Where on social media? Sorry on podcast. You, you are not, we're not in promotion mode. We're, we're not promoting anything. We're just having a, a deep conversation.

And so that's when I feel like it's more real. Yeah. I mean, there's also podcasts where I feel like, wow, okay. That's not real. Like, they're still like, kind of like, I wanna just kind of scratch, you know, the surface and go show me your real human being. Yeah. Usually, yeah. You can tell, okay. This feels like, oh, I'm really speaking to live.

And that's how she is in real life as well, you know? 

Viv: Yeah. And I think this is the beauty as well. When you come away from social media, you know, if you think about how you utilize social media, now it's so much is. Quantity kind of content creation approach. You just need to push out content in the hope that it's gonna get seen multiple times a day to have any chance of being seen by other people that are in, in your world.

Whereas I [00:33:00] think when we come away from social media, We start serving with content that goes so much deeper, whether that's podcasts, blogs, maybe YouTube power, two videos, you know, whatever that is, you get the opportunity to go so much deeper. And I think that's where the true value lies. You know, and you can give everything away, you know, and I don't hold back because at the end of the day, people come speak, cuz they're like, I still need help.

Like implementing this. I need accountability. I need, you know, I just need support. I need someone to really kind of help guide. 

Sarah: Yeah. Yeah, totally agree. I don't think I think it's actually there it's the opposite effect. If you share more. People are like, oh wow. Now I can really see what, what it would be like to work with her instead of oh, you know, just gimme your top three tips and, and, and then don't go into details that that's yeah, just kind of 

Viv: superficial.

Yeah. But the big thing is, you know, just to kind of, sort of bring together, you know, they, they were my sort of top three ways. But the fastest way to grow your audience [00:34:00] off social media. Is to, to leverage, to borrow audiences. You know, there are three ways that you can grow an audience. You can buy an audience which we've touched on today.

You can build an audience. So building like a, a Facebook group, a community. And then also, you know, blog in what we kind of building an audience that way. Or you can borrow an audience, so borrowing other people's audiences, you know, and I think sometimes people think, oh, that's not great, but you know, borrowing audiences is a great way because actually you are giving value.

You're giving value that, that. That audience, you know, maybe are not getting from the person who's kind of leading that community known as a hub, you know, so actually bringing that outside expertise that can really serve deeper and that, you know, that is that that's giving you are giving. So you're not kind of taking away saying, well, I'm borrowing and I'm getting people signing up to my list and taking away you are not, you are adding value and, and that's brilliant if people can resonate with what you, you offer and you.

Your unique way of [00:35:00] delivery, then that's a fantastic thing, you know? So, so borrowing, you know, audiences and, and maybe borrowings, not the best term, because I think it brings maybe again, like negative kind of connotations for people. But, but that is fundamentally like the best way, the fastest way to grow your audience.

Sarah: To, to us what we use. One of the, the piece of the humane marketing mandala is partnership. And to me, it's partnering, you know, it 

Viv: is partnering, borrowing is partner 

Sarah: partnering with other entrepreneurs and realizing that your clients gain something. I gain something because I'm exposing my clients to an expertise that I don't have.

Yeah. And so really it really is partnering and, and I think we need to find our way back to that. We, you know, it's part of the, this isolation that we kind of learned over the last 20 years, it's like everybody on their own. No. Why, why, you know, we're aligned, our values are aligned. Why not help each other grow our 

Viv: businesses?

Yeah, absolutely. And you know, if you think [00:36:00] back to, to how. We survived back, you know, when we were like Neanderthals and, you know, paleolithic man and everything, you know, and we were at risk of being eaten by saber tooth tiger, you know, that community. Right. You know, and that partnering, you know, was an integral part of our survival.

And I think that's why we struggle. So much emotionally and mentally with this isolation now, because we need, we, you know, we need that as human beings. And I think this whole thing with partnerships is just great because you get to connect with people, you know, you get to hop on a zoom and maybe you're not in the same room physically with somebody, but, you know, having that face to face connection and having that one-on-one interaction is so much more powerful, you know, and, and opens up so many more opportunities because we are all connected.

Know that one person is. To so many other people and has their own networks and communities that potentially, you know, they can put you in touch with. So it's, it's, it's just a big kind of. Yeah, yeah. 

Sarah: [00:37:00] Right way. I started not offering a replay for my workshops or, you know, webinars, but to me they're really workshops because they're participated in.

Yes. And you know, I do, every time I send it out, I do get one or two nasty emails for, for not offering a replay again, it's because we. Gotten so trained to be spoon fed, spooned more and more content and more and more information that people just sign up to 20 webinars and just get the content and, and then feel even more anxious and overloaded.

So I'm like we need to move away from that. And. Like you said, have real human connections, get onto a zoom call where there's other people you don't know and be in community with these people. So I, I build in a break where we say, let's be human with each other and let's pause and let's see each other.

You know, fellow humans going through this experience of being an entrepreneur that that's not easy. Yeah. But it's an [00:38:00] unlearning. It's a lot of unlearning. Yeah, 

Viv: we're such, I mean, like you say, we, you know, we're a society where everything's on demand, you know, we get, yeah. We get stimulation. We get you know, social what's the word I'm looking for?

Sorry. Validation social. We get social validation, you know, for instant gratification from checking social media, you know, Amazon prime. We can have things instantly, you know, on demand TV. Everything's there, you know, we're not used to having to wait as well. Is, is another big, big aspect aspect of that, you know?

And yeah, it's, it's, it's crazy times. It's, you know, we are overstimulated. I think someone said to me that. In the course of, is it a day or an hour? Now we have more stimulation than caveman would've had within their entire life. Wow. And that's scary. And I think Neil Patel if you dunno who Neil Patel is like big or like he, he, he created Uber suggests, which is great, kind of online SEO search tool and things.

And. He put a, I think it was, I think it was Neotel [00:39:00] that talked about the attention span of a goldfish, I think is nine seconds. And I think in 2016 or 17, like the human, like attention span was something like 13 seconds. And now it's shorter in 2022, then that of a goldfish. That is scary. Yeah. And that has come from this like constant, like like I think this, this on demand society and having this constant stimulation.

Yeah. 

Sarah: So where do we go from here? Like, you know, where do you see, how do you see social media evolving over the next. Let's just say five years. I don't think we can even plan 10 years ahead anymore. So let's just see two to five years. How do you see it evolving since there is this movement away from it?

I guess? Oh, well 

Viv: I think there will still be so many people who continue to use it because they. Believe it's the only way, especially people early on in their journey. So I think they will be drawn to it again, as for the reasons I [00:40:00] cited, you know, I use it socially. It's addictive, you know, first and foremost, we have to remember.

People are not gonna come away because it's, it is an addiction. Mm-hmm . And so it's still gonna, it's still gonna be massively prominent. I don't think social media is ever going to go away and I don't necessarily think, you know, it, it needs to, for lots of people, it's a great way, you know, to stay connected with, with friends and family, maybe.

But from a business perspective, I think you are gonna see a lot more people. After sort of six to 12 months in business, kind of saying this isn't working this is not giving me, you know, the clients I'm not, not getting the leads and clients and I need to, I need another way. Yeah. And I think we'll start seeing more people moving away from social media as that core kind of approach and strategy.

Mm. 

Sarah: Yeah. And, and like you said, it it's a good tool, I guess, to stay in touch with family and friends. And so for that we'll keep using [00:41:00] it. But yeah, I agree with you. There's probably gonna be, and it's a good thing. It's like the, it's almost like you have to go through it, you know, to see, oh, this is not working for me.

Yeah, if we all knew what was working right from the start Life would be too easy. so it's like I have to go through some motions and, and see, okay, this is not working for me. Yeah. Also to learn about yourself, as we said, it's a lot, the entrepreneurial journey is a lot about learning out.

Learning to find out what works for you. And so maybe we just need to first learn, okay, this is not 

Viv: working for me. Yeah. What feels good when, you know, and I think again, thinking about the people that come to me, they kind of say, I just, I don't like it. It doesn't feel good. And then, and I don't do it, you know?

So this is the other thing I'm not consistent. So I just, it just, it's not working. 

Sarah: Why give. All together then feel shame about not doing it, right? Yeah. That's another piece. The 

Viv: shame. Yeah. So the shame is massive. Yeah. [00:42:00] That people feel and like this guilt and why, and, and you know, why am I not doing it?

And I've learned all the techniques and strategies, but you know, this, this shame. Yeah. Massive, massive. 

Sarah: This is so good. Thank you so much. Viv. I, I wanna come full circle, but. Share again, first of all, where people can find your report with the 21 ways where 

Viv: they can connect with you. It's very easy.

It's www.vivguide.com/ 21. That's the number two, one ways. W a Y S that's it. So yeah, Viv guide.com/ 21 ways. And you can get your, your free guide there. You can hear more from me on my podcast marketing without social media and, and, you know, I, I I've, this I've shared some real deep dives recently into kind of bundles.

If that's something that's of interest we've got summits coming up in. Couple of weeks. So, you know, all the different kind of approaches that I talk about within that guide, we do a lot kind of deep dives about how effective they are, you know, [00:43:00] the, the pros and cons. So you can kind of explore and get an insight into maybe what feels right for you before you kind of tackle things and, and invest in kind of learning how to do things.

Sarah: Wonderful. Yeah. Thank you so much for sharing those resources. And it's, it's, it's almost funny. Like, you know, when I usually ask, where can people find you it's like this long list of, you know, on Instagram, I'm this on Twitter? I'm this? You're like, no, there's my website. And that's where we connect. 

Viv: Yeah.

Connect with me on email, say hi. And, you know, I always say, if you wanna just email me, you know, just drop me an email. Hello, Viv guy.com. And I love that, you know, Truly do reply personally, to every email that comes through to my inbox. In the first instance from everybody, because I like saying hi, you know, we're, we're people we wanna connect.

And I like to hear what you do. So tell me, share with me your story. 

Sarah: Nice. Thank you so much. I have one last question. Sure. What are you grateful for today or this week? 

Viv: Oh, I've done [00:44:00] my gratitude diary this morning. I was really grateful that my children both slept all night last night in their own beds because they have not been sleeping well over the last couple of weeks, I've saying to Sarah they've been ill.

So I was really grateful to. Good sleep last night to help help me kind of prepare for today. And that seems really selfish, but it's real. Oh, 

Sarah: about it. It's so important. Like if we're not taken care of, then we can't take care of others, first of all, and who's gonna do our 

Viv: business. Exactly. And I had, you know, my, my eldest is not quite six yet.

She's still five. We've had nearly six years of no sleep. So you know, they were never great sleepers. My, well, my eldest has never been a great sleeper, so she she's, she is a lot better now. So I'm always grateful when they sleep all night. 

Sarah: yeah, hang in there. 

Viv: it's fine. It's you know, and I like that they come and they feel comfortable coming to get me and say, I just need a, you know, my youngest style say why you out open?

She goes, I just need a mama. At three o'clock in the morning. I'm like, I can't send you [00:45:00] away. Can I, you know, have if you need so, yeah, that's my gratitude. 

Sarah: Thank you so much for being on the humane marketing 

Viv: show. Thank you, Sarah. Thank you everybody.[00:46:00]