The Humane Marketing Show. A podcast for a generation of marketers who care.

In this episode of the Humane Marketing podcast, we venture into the 'P' of People as part of our ongoing exploration of the 7Ps of the Humane Marketing Mandala.

Join me in a conversation with Cara Steinmann, the visionary founder of the Ravel Collective and host of the Ravel Radio podcast. Together, we delve into the art of authentic networking, emphasizing the importance of core values, unconventional approaches on LinkedIn, and the profound impact of empathy on your business relationships.

Discover new insights that could transform the way you approach human connections and meaningful networking.

In this episode, Cara and I discuss:

• Her experience with traditional networking and how she redefined it
• How to bring our core values to our networking
• How Cara uses LinkedIn to create connections, but not with a lead-generation mindset
• Networking for introverts
• How to be intentional when networking
• The importance of quality over quantity
• And so much more

Ep 174

[00:00:00] Sarah: Hi, Cara. So nice to meet. Hi, you.

[00:00:04] Cara: Good to see you, Sarah. How's it going? I'm good, thank you.

[00:00:08] Sarah: Thanks for having me. Yeah, I really look forward to this conversation with you. I was on your podcast recently and we really

[00:00:15] Cara: we're

[00:00:16] Sarah: aligned, so I'm glad we have you on the humane part, marketing podcast, and talking about networking.

[00:00:23] Right? So that's kind of your. Specialty and, uh, yeah, I want to just go dive right in. So tell me how did you come to make networking part of your specialty? And how did you build a community around networking? Why is networking so important to

[00:00:45] Cara: you? It was kind of an accident because I don't really think of myself as a networking person and I think a lot of people probably feel that way because there's this connotation around networking that it's sort of like very businessy and very like you imagine yourself in a [00:01:00] room with very professional people and you're handing out business cards and you're talking about things that are very business related, but I think in my life, uh, in my career, I've sort of acted more as just a connector.

[00:01:12] I think of it as connecting with people and building relationships. And that's usually not on a grand scale. It's one person at a time, usually in a one to one conversation. And it doesn't feel like what you would imagine networking to be. So I think maybe a little shift in the way we think about networking can help a lot of us who don't like that whole, you know, big corporate business vibe and really care more about.

[00:01:36] One to one relationships and what goes on beyond the business. Yeah.

[00:01:40] Sarah: That's already such a, a shift when you say relationship building versus networking. Mm-hmm. has that term work in it. Right. And so it feels like I'm the one going into this crowd and I have to work my way through it. Like, and, and yeah.

[00:01:58] Collect the business cards [00:02:00] and you know, it's kind of like, yeah.

[00:02:01] Cara: That, and I think. Be I think expanding our understanding of network be working beyond or even relationship building beyond thinking of who we are going to build relationships with to thinking about who we can connect so they can build relationships, because then you expand your network exponentially because then they also.

[00:02:23] They also consider you part of their and both of you're part of both of their network. And then they're connecting. And then when they meet new people, they want to introduce you. So it's kind of kind of like weaving a web of connection with people that you genuinely want to talk to and spend time with and respect.

[00:02:37] Sarah: It's funny you guys use that term weaving because in our community, uh, we have. One of the calls that is kind of like a networking call, um, but we actually call it net weaving. So I love that it's this idea of, yeah, we're together and we're getting to know one another, but we're weaving, uh, these [00:03:00] relationships.

[00:03:00] Cara: And yeah, I love that. Yeah, we unravel. We have connection calls that are just to talk about whatever we want to talk about and connect. We had one yesterday and a bunch of us were on there just talking about what vacations we're taking and a little bit about business and what we're looking at challenges right now.

[00:03:14] And then we have a small, small business mastermind where we all break off and then we have a happy hour once a month. And otherwise we're just hanging out in the community, getting to know each other and asking business related questions and personal questions. And, you know, it's about, I think it's a little bit deeper than just.

[00:03:30] What do you do and who do you do it for? Like the pitch does, the elevator pitch doesn't matter so much when you know somebody. Yeah.

[00:03:38] Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. You really addressed something there. It's this superficiality that I always hated at networking events that I felt like people were only listening to themselves talk and preparing what they're going to say next.

[00:03:55] Listening to me and, you know, really having a conversation. And then [00:04:00] of course you add, you know, this was prior to COVID you add kind of like, you know, surrounding noise to it and you don't really hear one another and it was just

[00:04:10] like

[00:04:10] Cara: a nightmare. It is. It's a nightmare prior to COVID. I, I always loathed.

[00:04:17] In person networking events, conferences and things like that, because it just, I knew I was going to end up in situations talking to people who really weren't necessarily a very strategic fit for like a strategic partner or referral partner, and that they would, like you said, just be waiting for their opportunity to say what they needed to say about their business and having a lot of surface level conversations because I think a lot of business culture requires you to leave the personal at home.

[00:04:41] And I don't want to do that. I think we bring ourselves to our work and to our business, our core values, the way we operate. And I would rather, like we were talking about introverts before we hit record. Right. And I don't really consider myself an introvert, but when it comes to those kinds of things, I really act like one, because I would much rather have an [00:05:00] intimate conversation about things that matter than talk about, you know, What you do, what you do for people, because that's gonna, if you're an entrepreneur, you're going to find that out.

[00:05:08] Anyway, we can't help but talk about that. Right.

[00:05:10] Sarah: Yeah, yeah, no, it's so true. It's these deeper, meaningful connections and conversations and actually. Also pre COVID, um, there was this, uh, movement on, on LinkedIn, uh, called the LinkedIn local events. Yeah. And so me who always hated networking all of the sudden, I was like, well, these events kind of had a different tone because they, they came with topics and they were really open to this idea of.

[00:05:40] Bring yourself to the conversation, bring the human side to the conversation. And so I actually put my hand up together with, um, another, uh, local friend here. And we started creating these LinkedIn local networking events. And, and we created themes, you know, where people would pick [00:06:00] cards and have really deep conversations and people loved it, people were like, Oh, this.

[00:06:05] So different. Right. And then every now and then the person would walk in and you could tell, you know, they were like business suit and they probably had their stack of business cards and they're like, what is this? Why

[00:06:17] Cara: are people doing here? It's funny. Cause I had, I used to host a speed networking event in Ravel and, um.

[00:06:24] I actually, I learned this from a coaching program that I was in and they would do a lot of like more personal questions. And so I love that we only did it once a month and I was like, we need to do this more often. And so the challenge was calling it speed networking because what we actually do when you get there is break up into small little breakout rooms.

[00:06:40] And I would. I would offer questions or topic starters, like what's the weirdest thing in your fridge right now? Like things that don't have anything to do with business, but you end up deciding kind of who you really mesh with and who you want to take that relationship further with and really get to know about them and their business and how you can support one another.

[00:06:57] Cause you don't really want to support people you don't [00:07:00] care about. Right. So that's kind of the first step, I think, is deciding who you want to care about. Right.

[00:07:05] Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. Before you also addressed core values. So, so huge. What do you think are the, you know, the core, or I guess there's two questions. What are the core values that we should bring to networking and why do they

[00:07:21] Cara: matter so much?

[00:07:23] I think we should bring our own core values to networking because the truth is we are all I like to think of them as core drivers because I think corporate culture has kind of ruined the term core values for us. We think of the little poster on the wall that doesn't really mean anything. But if you really get into your core drivers, what it means is it's what motivates you.

[00:07:40] It's what drives your behavior. So my core values are freedom, authenticity and connection. And I notice when I'm in a funk or when I'm out of sorts, it's because something is going against my core values. So if you're going to network, I think you should network with people ideally who share your core values.

[00:07:58] And then you'll [00:08:00] naturally network in a very comfortable way. Like when I started Ravel, I very intentionally invited, I seeded the community with women who I knew shared at least one of my core values, knowing that birds of a feather flock together. And so it worked really well because now we're up around a hundred women and anyone who's referred someone has always been an amazing fit.

[00:08:18] I have to do very little background on the applicants now because if I know Maggie int introduced someone else to the group, I know Maggie and I know she's not going to introduce somebody to the group who's not a good fit because her core values align really well with mine. Yeah. So I think that makes it just so much easier to predict how someone's going to behave and what you can expect from them.

[00:08:40] Sarah: Yeah, and it really defines the community,

[00:08:42] Cara: right? Yeah, it makes it easier to hold that community in a shape, like my goal when I started Ravel was to create a community, just create a space and hold it in a shape, such that people would feel comfortable and vulnerable enough to connect with one another and really get to know each other.

[00:08:58] And by inviting the. [00:09:00] Types of people who would be strategically aligned to be most likely to refer one another, like complimentary service providers. They're all B2B service entrepreneurs and they're women. So they have a lot in common and, you know, financial professionals who serve agencies can network with coaches who serve agencies.

[00:09:17] And because they share core values, they're going to probably get along pretty well. And it makes it easy to build that kind of rapport that they need to. Want to connect with one another and see what's up in their business and say, Hey, you should talk to so and so. So it's like kind of building relationships with like the happy by product that you get referrals in business works really well.

[00:09:36] Yeah.

[00:09:37] Sarah: That makes a lot of sense. Usually we hear this this idea of quality over quantity. Um, you just mentioned your communities about 100 people. Um, so, so what do you think about quality over quantity in terms of the networking? Is it a, is it a numbers game or is [00:10:00] it a quality game or is it something

[00:10:01] Cara: in between?

[00:10:02] I think it's quality over quantity, 100%. And I think it's evolving, honestly, constantly, right? Like, so if you're, cause your business evolves, maybe you shift who you serve or how you serve that person. Um, and so maybe you have a handful of really great referral partners and. you shift your business a little bit.

[00:10:21] You might have to, some of those referral partners, it might not be as strategically aligned anymore. And maybe they stay, you stay friends, but you might start looking around for different strategic partners who might be more well aligned, but it's not like you have to shift your whole network. You just start networking with a few different people and start figuring out who, who fits with you.

[00:10:38] Um, and I think like a hundred is a lot of women. Like, I don't, I don't intimately know every member of the community anymore. When it was like 20 women, it was like, It was really easy. And, but what we've done is we've separated into smaller groups too. So we have a Slack channel where we have different topics.

[00:10:55] We have rabble travel, and we have ADHD all day and moms. And [00:11:00] so we have these different things that we care about. And the women who gravitate to those channels tend to get to know each other well enough that. Even if they're not strategically aligned to refer one another as well as some others would be, they kind of cross pollinate between the community, the micro communities within the chant, within the community.

[00:11:17] And then they say, Oh, you know who you should get to know. So there's a lot of paying it forward, introducing people to other people. That is such a, an underrated gift that you can give someone is to say, I think I know somebody who you need to know. Who would, you'd benefit from knowing each other. I mean, making a connection between two people who you think would get along is such a gift.

[00:11:38] Yeah.

[00:11:39] Sarah: Yeah. So true. Um, you mentioned a few times this word strategic, and I guess it's for you, it's like, well, there's a strategy to networking because again, as an introvert, This idea of networking can sometimes feel so overwhelming because we think, well, does that mean I have to network with [00:12:00] just anybody, you know, so it's like, Oh my God, I don't have the time to network with just anybody.

[00:12:07] So, so what, what is a good strategy, um, that feels, you know, empathic and yet very strategic. Um, and I guess time conscious as well.

[00:12:20] Cara: Yeah. Yeah. I think. Um, that's probably how most people think of it is just like, it's very overwhelming. You have to make a lot of people think there's a list you have to make and you have to contact X number of people a day.

[00:12:31] And that feels very impersonal and kind of, um, like required, which doesn't feel good for a lot of people. Um, I've approached it differently. Like I spend a lot of time on LinkedIn. Um, just for networking, though, I don't spend a lot of time scrolling on LinkedIn, but if I find somebody offline, say I'm listening to a podcast or reading a book or find somebody's website online while I'm Googling or going down a rabbit hole of some kind, and I feel like they are strategically aligned with my business, meaning either they're, uh, [00:13:00] Complimentary service provider.

[00:13:00] So we serve the same client, but we do different things, or we are a shoulder niche peer, meaning that we do different things or do we do the same sort of thing, but for different clients. So maybe I serve, um, the financial industry and they serve, um, like agencies or something like that. And so we can refer one another because we don't really serve the same ideal client, and this requires knowing what you want and what you're good at.

[00:13:24] I don't think we are all suited to do, you know, the same thing. We're, we're all so different. I think it also, I think it's a successful networking in this way requires that you don't believe in competition. We're all so different. There's so much, so many factors that we can own as, you know, authentic to who we are that maybe somebody else doesn't want to own.

[00:13:45] And if we know ourselves really well, we can understand what we do best and who we are best suited to serve. And then there's just no way that somebody else is going to bring exactly the same thing to the table that we are. So. We have to kind of get rid of that idea first. And then we're free to [00:14:00] network with people who look like they do something similar to what we do, but probably don't do exactly what we do or for the same person.

[00:14:07] Um, and then you can also look for people who are, um, centers of influence coaches for, if you serve entrepreneurs, maybe you're wanting to network with coaches who serve entrepreneurs, and maybe you're a done for you service provider or something like that. So they're in a position to refer you there.

[00:14:24] The people you're looking for to network with are the ones who are most likely to be in a position to refer you. So not somebody who's working in a totally different industry with clients that aren't even related to you. Um, but I don't, I don't think you have to go like search for them. I think you can listen to podcasts that are interesting to you and just start taking note of.

[00:14:47] Someone who's interesting to you, who you think you might like and say, is that person in a position to refer me perhaps, and then you can just reach out to that person individually. I usually on LinkedIn because it's the easiest place to get [00:15:00] really connected with somebody. Yeah,

[00:15:03] Sarah: so the idea is really to find referral partners.

[00:15:07] and connect with them.

[00:15:09] Cara: Yeah. And to be open about it and say, Hey, I think we have a lot in common. I think we might benefit from knowing each other. Um, I like you. I like what you're doing. Let's connect and just say hi. Mm-hmm. .

[00:15:20] Sarah: Yeah. Do you then stop at the, you know, first conversation or how do you. Because it, you know, we always say in networking, you have to stay top of mind.

[00:15:31] So how do you stay top of mind with this

[00:15:33] Cara: person then? I don't think everyone is going to stay top of mind all the time, right? Like, you're gonna, you're gonna meet a few people who you really click with. And a few people who you don't really click with. One of the reasons that I started Ravel was because it is hard to stay top of mind when we're all busy and we're all running around doing all our stuff all day long.

[00:15:52] And I don't, I'm not the kind of person, let's do, we have to do what works for us, right? If you're an organized person and you like lists and you use a [00:16:00] CRM, maybe you can stay top of mind with people in your own strategic way. I can't do that. So I put everybody in a container that I like so that I can stay connected with them in a container.

[00:16:12] We, we naturally stay connected because we're having calls or somebody is asking a question and we're learning more about their business that way. And we're commenting and sharing our expertise. And so I think it's about proximity. And then if you're connected with them on LinkedIn and you're following them, you might see them.

[00:16:26] It's like, The top of mind thing I think is more about the mere exposure effect than, than the top, than staying top of mind. It's just staying in front of someone who you want to, to stay connected with. And you can do that in a lot of different ways just by commenting on their stuff on LinkedIn. They see you, you learn a little bit more maybe about what they do and it don't think it has to take a long time.

[00:16:46] It can take five, 10 minutes to, to go on. And in the case of LinkedIn, I would say like a lot of people suggest. That you'd be connected to a ton of people and follow a ton of people. But I find that really overwhelming. So [00:17:00] I only follow and want to be connected with the people that I really want to stay connected with because then my feed isn't really overwhelming and I can just, I can see the people that I want to stay in touch with and I can comment and like, and stay.

[00:17:12] In front of them. And then they remember me.

[00:17:15] Sarah: Yeah. So, so, so does that mean that you actually, you know, hide some of the updates of people who you don't want to see anymore, just so not, not to.

[00:17:26] Cara: I just unfollow them or disconnect. I am a little bit ruthless that way because it's, we only have so much time and I don't really want to be connected with people that don't align with me really, really well.

[00:17:36] So, you know, when I. I've been on LinkedIn for a long, long time, but my, my career has evolved. You know, if the past 15 years I'm doing very different things than I was in the very beginning. And so I, when I decided to reinvest in LinkedIn as a way to connect with people, I went in and I, I had, you know, thousands of connections and I got rid of all but 400 and some odd.

[00:17:57] Because it was like, if I don't want to have coffee with this [00:18:00] person, I don't need to be on LinkedIn with them. And perhaps that's different if you're not an entrepreneur and you're trying to get a job. I don't know about that, but for my situation where I want to spend time connecting and networking with people who care about the same things I care about.

[00:18:18] That means there's a lot of people I don't need to connect with. And I don't want to waste my time looking at their stuff. if I don't care about it. Right. And they don't know, so it's not mean or anything.

[00:18:33] Sarah: Um, yeah, it's really interesting to, to see how, you know, usually we always hear, Oh, use LinkedIn for lead generation, right?

[00:18:43] Yeah, that's not how you're looking at it. You're like, well, I, Only want the people I care about. And so they, yes, they might be potential clients or they're, you know, some other level of connection or

[00:18:59] [00:19:00] network.

[00:19:00] Cara: That's how you. I think that's a giant, you're speaking to something that's really important that I think a lot of people miss.

[00:19:05] It's a giant mistake to go into like a community or a networking container and think you're going to sell to the people in that container. You're the benefit of being in a container with a hundred women. Is the connection to the 150 other people they know that they might be able to connect you with.

[00:19:24] And yes, we buy from each other. I've purchased products and services from tons of the women inside Ravel and we buy stuff. We hire each other all the time, but it's not because we're sharing our offers and trying to convince each other to buy from us. It's because we happen to know each other really well, and we have a problem and we know that person can solve it.

[00:19:42] But most of the time we're introducing someone. To another person, like I'll run. I talked to a friend of mine, or I go to an event or something, and I hear somebody has a problem. And I will say, I know somebody you should talk to. Let me connect you with so and so because I know what she does. And I like her and I know she'll do a good job.

[00:19:59] Right. [00:20:00] So we're, we're building the relationships. We're not selling to people and LinkedIn is You know, a breeding ground for people doing lead gen on LinkedIn. We should be doing strategic networking.

[00:20:11] Sarah: Yeah, I think that that's really the, the, the difference is not thinking of everybody who is somehow looking like a client just because they, you know, have a human body that, that you think of them as your ideal client.

[00:20:29] And especially if you then think of a community where Uh, you know, the minute you bring that kind of energy into a community, the community is basically, yeah, it's destined to

[00:20:41] Cara: fail. I've seen it happen in Ravel a couple of times where a couple, where a couple of people have, you know, crossed that line between, Hey guys, here's what I'm doing.

[00:20:49] Check it out. Cause we want to share, we want to share what we're doing and we have a space for that, you know, but, um, a couple of people have, you know, gotten a little bit salesy with it. And it's not that they [00:21:00] get slapped down or anything. It's just that nobody responds. Right. It's just not something people are looking for in a community where we're trying to build relationships.

[00:21:10] But what we do is we have calls and we connect with one another and we learn what's going on. And then we will often share on another person's behalf. One of our, one of our members, Cara, Cara Hoosier, she's getting ready to publish a book and it's really exciting because she's been through an incredible journey to get where she is.

[00:21:25] It's called burnt out to lit up. And it's about. preventing yourself from burning out and what to do when you get there. And she's getting ready to launch this. She's looking for people to help her, you know, do reviews and read her book. And I was super excited for her. So instead of her getting on there and she's saying, Hey guys, look at what I did.

[00:21:43] I said, can I share this with the community? Because it's really awesome. And she was like, sure. And so I said, you guys look at this, our member, our fellow friend here. is publishing a book. This is so exciting. Who wants to help her? I know that anybody else in here who is publishing a book would want the community to help them too.

[00:21:59] [00:22:00] And so it's a very different message when you lift up another woman, as opposed to saying, look at me. It look at her sounds a lot different than look at me. Sure. So we help each other that way. Yeah.

[00:22:12] Sarah: At the same time you as the host. What would you do? And this is not to do with networking, but just as a, you know, fellow community host, what would you do with a member, you know, several times trespasses that kind of unspoken rule that we're not selling in this community?

[00:22:34] What would you do?

[00:22:36] Cara: We had one instance in two years. In the last two years, we've had one instance where someone really kind of did cross the line. And I wasn't online that morning, but I got a bunch of messages from other community members who were like, Hey, we don't like this. Like we got to do something about this.

[00:22:52] Um, and they were upset for me because she was trying to poach a bunch of members into a different community, which I think is fine actually, because [00:23:00] it's, I mean, I don't think poaching is fine, but I think women should have more than one community. They serve different purposes. I. intentionally keep Ravel at a very reasonable price because I want to belong to many communities, and I know that other women do too.

[00:23:13] Um, but the way she went about it was really kind of gross. And so I had to respond to that because the community was saying, this feels gross and we don't want to be around this. And so I did ask, I said, we're going to go ahead and Remove you because this is not how we operate in here. I wish you know, but bless and release This might just not be the right place for you Which is important to remember because there are people have different core values people believe different things They operate different ways and just because she doesn't operate the way that we want to operate doesn't mean there's not a place Where that's totally fine for people to do, bless and release.

[00:23:46] Um, so it's really more of like the community managing itself. I don't moderate and I don't tell them what they can and can't do.

[00:23:54] Sarah: So, yeah, but in a way it's beautiful to have them, you know, kind of [00:24:00] show up and say, Hey, this is not how, this is not how we run here.

[00:24:05] Cara: And yeah. And yeah. And that's my whole goal with the community is I don't, I'm not a coach.

[00:24:10] I don't. Sell them anything other than the place inside the community, like the space. And so that's what, how I view it is. And I mean, we're kind of getting away from networking into community at this point, but I view it as myself just holding space in a particular shape. And that's my job is to make sure this play, this space is safe and a good place for people to be vulnerable and build relationships.

[00:24:31] And if they can't do that, I'm not doing my job. So it has to be a safe space online. Yeah, yeah,

[00:24:39] Sarah: that's beautiful. Yeah, we kind of meshed community with networking, but that's what

[00:24:45] Cara: you're, that's what it is, right? Yeah, it, if when you're networking, you're building community. It just may not have a specific container it lives in.

[00:24:54] Sarah: Yeah. And I also think. If we're changing that [00:25:00] term of networking into net weaving, then that's what we're really doing in a community is weaving a web together because the whole definition of a community is people being connected with each other. Not just to you as the host, right?

[00:25:17] Cara: Totally. Yeah. And, and I, and this is why I use Slack, but I pay for the analytics.

[00:25:23] I could use it for free, but I want to see what's happening behind the scenes, which is valuable because more than 50 percent of the conversations that are happening inside the community are in the DMs. And I know I'm not having that many conversations. There are thousands of conversations happening during the month.

[00:25:36] And I know I'm not having that many. So there are a lot of private conversations happening and partnerships. Um, I introduced a couple of gals recently who are now partnering in business and, and they're super excited and doing some really amazing things. And I know that has nothing to do with me, but we're weaving.

[00:25:54] These connections, not just for us, but for other people as well. And I think not, you don't even have [00:26:00] to, like, we can think of containers as smaller things, even text threads between two people or three people. Like if I have several people I want to connect with, because we all live locally, we're on a text thread together and the three of us send funny memes to one another.

[00:26:12] And it doesn't have to do with business all the time. Yeah,

[00:26:16] Sarah: I agree with that. It can also be more fun, right? It

[00:26:18] Cara: should be more fun. Don't you think we should have more fun? I need more fun.

[00:26:25] Sarah: Um, Yeah, maybe, maybe that's a good way to close with the, with the fun networking. Um, but maybe just also for people who right now, you know, there's so many communities out there yet, yet they're like, well, I don't either, I don't have the funds or I just can't decide which one to join.

[00:26:45] So how can you start networking with that community as, or with that community notion without being in a community? What kind of advice would

[00:26:55] Cara: you give? Um, I would say, I would say just [00:27:00] start connecting with people you enjoy. I listen to a lot of podcasts and I reach out to people who I think are excellent, either hosts or, um, interviewees, guests.

[00:27:10] And I just tell them, I really, I like just start, start connecting directly with people that you admire, or you think have something interesting to say that you align with. Um, because like, there's that thing homophily, we're attracted to things that are similar to what we love or, or who we are. And so we're, they're going to be attracted to you.

[00:27:28] If you share something either, I mean, location's really obvious, but beyond that, like core values or a mission or a purpose or something like that, like, I think you and I initially got connected on LinkedIn long, long ago, because I heard your podcast. And I was like, I, you're doing awesome things. We need to be connected.

[00:27:45] And like, it didn't go anywhere for a long time. We had a little back and forth on, on LinkedIn, but eventually here we are trading podcast interviews. And so I think being in it for the long game and having conversations in the DMs, not expecting every [00:28:00] conversation to go somewhere, but being open to it going somewhere.

[00:28:04] Yeah.

[00:28:04] Sarah: And probably also not coming with this expectation that. Everyone you reach out to is gonna open your, their calendar

[00:28:13] Cara: to you, you know, like, yeah, like when we connected initially, I was not expecting a one to one call. I, we live across the country, across the world from one another and we're both busy and eventually maybe we connect, but I genuinely just wanted to tell you that I really like what you're doing.

[00:28:30] And I think that's people want to hear that it's people are open to hearing that you agree with them and that you like what they're doing. And if that's all it is, you've put some good energy out in the world and you can leave it at that. Right,

[00:28:41] Sarah: exactly. It doesn't doesn't have to become a lead generation.

[00:28:45] Cara: Yeah, it doesn't have to even become like a really intense networking like relationship there. We're going to have this whole gamut of closeness in our network, right? And we don't have the capacity to be really close. With a bunch of bunch of people like [00:29:00] 510 people, we're going to be really close with.

[00:29:02] Um, and if we're all running in roughly the same circles, there's going to be opportunities for collaboration and referrals and those things. So it's a little bit of a leap of faith, but you got to just trust that if you're doing good work and you're helping people and people know you do it, that they're going to tell somebody exactly

[00:29:20] Sarah: plant those seeds.

[00:29:21] Yes, that's wonderful. Well, do you tell us a bit more about rattle and your community

[00:29:28] Cara: and where people can find it? Yeah. The website is ravelcollective. com and it's for women B2B service entrepreneurs. So financial professionals, lots of marketers, content writers, stuff like that. Consultants. We've got some coaches, some, um, coaches for women entrepreneurs, and it's just a networking community, a really casual networking community where we Get to know each other.

[00:29:50] A bunch of us are going to Mexico in a month together. I haven't met three of them, but I, and it's not an official event. I just said, Hey, I'm going to go to Mexico for a week and [00:30:00] do some like 2024 business planning. If anybody wants to join me, I've rented this house. And so it's not, you know, we probably won't talk business all the time, but.

[00:30:09] It'll be fun. So we're kind of trying to put some of the fun and like person to person relationship back into business so that we can rely on, I don't know, our, our relationships to sustain us instead of, you know, just relying on ourselves. So yeah, it's 39 a month and it's month to month and it's just a space that I'm holding for women who want to build more professional relationships.

[00:30:34] Sarah: We'll make sure to link to it. I always have one last question, uh, Cara, and that's, what are you grateful for today or this week, this month?

[00:30:45] Cara: Oh my goodness. I think I'm most grateful for my family this week. It's there's a lot of, there's a lot of lonely people out there and I have a wonderful husband and a, an amazing son and I'm really [00:31:00] grateful for them.

[00:31:02] Wonderful.

[00:31:03] Thank you for having me.

Today's conversation fits under the P of Personal Power

If you're a regular here, you know that I'm organizing the conversations around the 7Ps of the Humane Marketing Mandala.
(If you're new here and don't know what I'm talking about you can download your 1page marketing plan with the Humane Marketing version of the 7 Ps of Marketing at humane.marketing/1page. It comes with 7 email prompts to really help you reflect on these different Ps).

It's time for another short solo episode. This time I'd like to share a bit more about the 2nd P of Personal Power.

I'll address:

• Why it's key to know your Personal Power in Humane Marketing
• How defining your core values dictates how you show up in the world
• What other personality assessments you can use to learn more about who you are
• How all this information helps you understand your Unique Holistic Marketing Super Power
• And how to bring all of that into your story

Ep 173 text

[00:00:00] Sarah: Hello, Humane Marketers. Welcome back to the Humane Marketing Podcast, the place to be for the generation of marketers that cares. This is a show where we talk about running your business in a way that feels good to you, is aligned with your values, and also resonates with today's conscious customers because it's humane, ethical, and non pushy.

[00:00:23] I'm Sarah Zanacroce, your hippie turned business coach for quietly rebellious entrepreneurs and marketing impact pioneers. Mama bear of the humane marketing circle and renegade author of marketing like we're human and selling like we're human. If after listening to the show for a while, you're ready to move on to the next level and start implementing and would welcome a community of like minded, quietly rebellious entrepreneurs who discuss with transparency what works and what doesn't work in business, then we'd love to welcome you in our humane marketing circle.

[00:00:58] If you're picturing your [00:01:00] typical Facebook group, let me paint a new picture for you. This is a closed community of like minded entrepreneurs from all over the world who come together once per month in a Zoom circle workshop to hold each other accountable and build their business in a sustainable way.

[00:01:16] We share with transparency and vulnerability what works for us. And what doesn't work, so that you can figure out what works for you, instead of keep throwing spaghetti on the wall and seeing what sticks. Find out more at humane. marketing forward slash circle. And if you prefer one on one support from me, my humane business coaching could be just what you need.

[00:01:40] Whether it's for your marketing, sales, general business building, or help with your big idea like writing a book, I'd love to share my brain and my heart with you, together with my almost 50. Years business experience and help you grow a sustainable business that is joyful and sustainable. If you love this [00:02:00] podcast, wait until I show you my Mama Bear qualities as my one-on-one client, and find out more at Humane Marketing slash Coaching.

[00:02:09] And finally, if you are a Marketing Impact pioneer and would like to bring Humane Marketing to your organization, have a look at my offers and workshops on my website at Humane.

[00:02:34] Hello friends, welcome back to the Humane Marketing Podcast. Today's conversation, well, it's a solo episode fits under the P of personal power. If you're a regular here, you know that I'm organizing the conversations around the seven P's. of the Humane Marketing Mandala. If this is your first time here, a very warm welcome.

[00:02:57] You probably don't know what I'm talking about, but [00:03:00] you can download your one page marketing plan with the Humane Marketing version of the seven Ps of marketing at humane. marketing forward slash one page. That's the number one and the word page. And humane is with an E at the end. I noticed that non English speakers don't always know that human and humane are spelled differently.

[00:03:24] So humane is with an E at the end. And this comes with a seven email prompts to really help you reflect on these different P's for your business. So it's time for another. short solo episode and this time I'd like to share a bit more about the second P, the one that stands for personal power. I'll be talking about why it's key to know your personal power in humane marketing, how defining your core values really dictates how you show up in the world, [00:04:00] what other personality assessments you can do.

[00:04:02] News to learn more about who you are, how all this information helps you understand your unique holistic marketing superpower. How to bring all of that into your story and just create a business that is aligned with who you are and therefore, you know, also marketed from within. Who am I? That's the question here, right?

[00:04:28] And so this is the other P together with passion or purpose, the first P that was completely missing in the traditional marketing model. Before we never looked at ourselves first. It was all about the customer because the customer was king. And so we had to kind of chase after this customer. So I really think it has to do with the human evolution.

[00:04:54] We want to self actualize. So it makes sense to learn more about [00:05:00] ourselves first in order to then find out who's a good match for us. It's very aligned also with the inner development goals. Something that I'm recently very much fascinated by and. kind of following the movement, participating in the movement.

[00:05:18] So if you haven't heard about the inner development goals, definitely look that up. It's the pendant of the sustainable development goals. But again, as the word says, it's starting within, starting with ourselves. And so it's the same here. We're starting marketing within, within, within ourselves. So it's really.

[00:05:39] principle of the resonance, right? So that we find out who we are first in order to resonate with ideal clients who are aligned with us. And marketing with integrity really means marketing in our wholeness. So that's why we need to start with [00:06:00] ourselves. So the first thing we look at, and I'm sure you heard about this before, is our values.

[00:06:07] You know, what are our core. Usually it's three or five. So if you haven't done this exercise yet or haven't done it recently, I really highly recommend that you look at your values again, because they actually also change. So there's a free core values assessment. If you Google personal values assessment, you'll, you'll find probably several, but Yeah, they're, they're all pretty much the same.

[00:06:36] So you just pick first 10 values and then you narrow it down to five or three. And mine currently are freedom, curiosity, joy. health and honesty. So these are kind of my top five values. In her books, Brene Brown talks about her two [00:07:00] guiding values being courage and faith and how she always thinks about these main values whenever she makes a decision.

[00:07:07] For example, freedom is my number one value whenever I don't feel free. I feel trapped and knowing that about myself has really helped me with business decisions. For example, I'm not an ideal fit for working with a business partner under the same company. I just wouldn't feel free to do whatever I want.

[00:07:30] It also means that I do my best work with entrepreneurs who also often have this urge for freedom. A few years ago, I trained all the consultants of the local unemployment offices on how to help their clients with LinkedIn. And I really did not like it. They were not my people. They had been working at their jobs for.

[00:07:55] And they didn't share this value of freedom and [00:08:00] curiosity and and the growth mindset. So yeah, looking at our values and knowing what they are and bringing them into our work and into our marketing and into our Business decisions is really really key. Another thing I talk about in the Marketing Like We're Human program under the personal P, personal power P, is the Myers Briggs personality assessment.

[00:08:28] I'm sure all of us have taken that already at one point in our life. My type is INFJ, so knowing this about myself helps me understand more about my energy. That I'm more introverted and more intuitive. I'm not driven by numbers and stats. I love people but I need to refill my battery by being alone.

[00:08:55] So, It's a, it's a good assessment to really know how, how [00:09:00] you're wired and it helps you again with your marketing and your business decisions because it, it teaches you how you do your best work, right? Another one we look at is the Enneagram. I don't know much about that, I think I'm a four, but it's also an interesting one to look at, so if, if that calls you maybe because of the drawing or it just speaks to you more, then definitely have a look at that.

[00:09:29] Another one is the, the Strengths Assessment. So, it's called the V I A Institute of Character Strengths, and it's organized in 24 character strengths in different degrees, giving each person a unique character profile. And so, Then it also gives you kind of your six most important character strengths, and which is just also, you know, interesting to look [00:10:00] at.

[00:10:00] So mine were Humility, Love of Learning, which is again similar to my Value of Curiosity, Judgment, which is the same J of INFJ. So Judgment, my Husband Tony always makes fun of me about that because I am quite a judgy also with people and say I don't like these pants Things like that, but that's not what it stands for in the Myers Briggs assessment It the J is really about planning everything ahead of time and not being so good with spontaneity And so that's very much me very You know future planning so judgment is my third.

[00:10:46] Then fourth is creativity, which is still true. Then fifth is gratitude, which is also true. And then sixth is kindness. So again, it's a lot of confirmation, but knowing this about. [00:11:00] myself lets me tap into it more into, you know, bring that into my marketing. Like I call myself the mama bear of the humane marketing circle.

[00:11:10] Well, it is that, you know, kindness, for example comes out of this term. So it's just informs us about different aspects of ourself that we can bring into our communication and our business. Another one of these. It's not really an assessment. It's much bigger than an assessment. I don't know what you would call it.

[00:11:35] It, it is human design that is based on astrology and a very similar type of thing is, is called gene keys. So you probably either know human design or you know gene keys, but they're very similar, I would say, because they're based on astrology. And I'm a five... One generator, so there's different profiles, [00:12:00] and I am really usually full of energy.

[00:12:04] That's what the generator means. I, I, you know, intrinsically create energy. And so again, just kind of learning more about this human design and it goes into a lot of depth. If you're curious about human design, I highly recommend you listen to episode 159 with Julian Cross and Hill, who is a human design specialist.

[00:12:29] And you can find that episode at humane. marketing. com forward slash H. M 1, 5 9. So very, very fascinating work that I dove into a few years ago, and it's still with me. I have my report in my desk, and every now and then I take it back out. I'm like, oh, yes, that's why I'm doing what I'm doing. For example, it gave me the information that I'm actually meant to work with.[00:13:00]

[00:13:00] One too many, so writing books, for example, or doing the group coaching, I thought that I was just meant to work one on one because I was an introvert and yet when the human report came out and I worked with someone on, on that. We realized, well, actually, no, it's not so much about one on one or not only about one on one.

[00:13:26] So that was interesting for me. So yeah, have a listen to episode 159 with Julian Cross and Hill, who talks about human design. Yet another one is the fascination advantage. So that's more about. looking at how the world sees us rather than how we see the world. And this one really is more marketing oriented.

[00:13:49] It's It's really interesting to find out also that often people see us differently from how we see ourselves. So the exact [00:14:00] words that people would use to describe us and the types of tasks that perfectly fit our personal brand and, and then it gives you these 42 personality archetypes, which seems like a lot.

[00:14:16] But There's been a lot of research behind that and really it, it is, yeah, it is fascinating. And when I took it a few years ago, I came out as the maverick leader and my kind of Power was innovation and power. And now that I took it again, power stayed the same and innovation changed to mystique, which mystique is the language of listening, which also fits me well.

[00:14:46] So it's just interesting to see and find out how the world sees you. And then also kind of receive this language that people would use. Well, I would never. [00:15:00] Describe myself as a maverick leader. I wouldn't put those words out there, but it's interesting to hear and see that maybe that's how people perceive me.

[00:15:13] So yeah, very interesting information in that report. It used to be free. Now, unfortunately it's no longer free and it's. I think it's around 70 bucks a client you recently told me so, but I would say it's, it's, if you're interested in that kind of thing, it's definitely worth doing that once. So all these results really help us realize who we are and what we're good at and what our unique holistic marketing superpower is.

[00:15:43] There's probably others. Oh, there's one I'm thinking of from Jonathan Fields called What's your SPARCA type? And that one is also a bit more like skills oriented like work oriented. So you'll find that on Jonathan Field's [00:16:00] website, or if you just Google SPARCA type and, and another interesting of these self assessments.

[00:16:07] And again, we don't have to. You know, take these labels for granted. Things can change and we don't have to put ourselves into this box. But to me, it really informs us a bit about how we're wired and then. You know, we can tap into that and say, yeah let me explore this and find out how I can use this to my best advantage.

[00:16:33] So, for example, if I'd work with a coach that told me that I have to speak on stage every week, that would really not work for me. I'd be totally outside of my comfort zone all the time and probably end up with a burnout in a few months. All about expanding our comfort zone every now and then, like I'm doing in a couple of weeks by going to a big summit about the inner [00:17:00] development goals in, in Sweden.

[00:17:01] So again, these inner development goals that I mentioned earlier, it's just really right now at a topic that I'm fascinated. of and really interested in and so these summits are, they're, yeah, I'm an introvert as you know and so going to a big summit like that is, yeah, outside of my comfort zone, but it's.

[00:17:25] Okay for me to expand that comfort zone every now and then, but for most of the time, I agree with my friend, Adam, who has this concept that he calls inside the comfort zone. And I think that's why we're doing these personality assessments and figuring out our unique, holistic superpower is that for most of the time we can operate within.

[00:17:49] our comfort zone. And I really think we are our best selves and do our best work when we truly know who we are and bring all of us [00:18:00] to our work. No masks. We're not faking it until we are making it. Right? Most of the time, I would say probably 98 percent we do our best work if we are truly just who we are.

[00:18:13] 2 percent of the time, yeah, we'll have to put on a little mask. And, and, you know, for me, it's usually kind of faking the small talk or, or pretending I'm fine when I'm actually having a headache, which happens a lot. But other than that. I just, you know, operate best if I'm truly inside the comfort zone and, and being my true self.

[00:18:38] Another thing knowing my personal power helped me understand is that I need a lot of spaciousness in my days. Even though I call myself a conscious business coach, I don't enjoy coaching loads of clients at the same time. My brain just can't handle it. Another thing I didn't I mentioned so [00:19:00] much here is that I'm a highly sensitive person, that's, you know, it's not a, in a, in a personality assessment, but it's, it's a trait.

[00:19:08] It's a personality trait. And so, Understanding this about myself that I'm highly sensitive and that my brain quite quickly probably more quickly than other people goes into overload, it just made me understand, well, I can't be this coach like other people are coaching all day long and having like six, seven coaching clients per day, it's, it's not good for me.

[00:19:36] So that's why I shifted my business model to now work only with three. one on one clients at a time and they of course get then my full attention and I can over deliver because I'm not spread too thin. Besides the one on one clients, I then also offer the community and the group program and soon a second one that I'm [00:20:00] calling the business book alchemist.

[00:20:02] If you're on my email list, you already know about this one. So another story that comes to about how my values helped me. Make a business decision is the story about the trademark issue with gentle marketing. If you've been in my world for a while, you already know this story that after I published the first book then called the gentle marketing revolution, I received a seasoned assist letter and was told I can no longer use that term.

[00:20:33] And so. That was really, really hard, as you can imagine. But sticking to my values where a lot of people kind of even, you know, nice, like friends almost, like at least business friends told me, well, you know, maybe you can fight this. I'm sure there's, there's a gray zone because she's in the U. S. You're in Switzerland, you know, just lawyer up, get a lawyer and, and, and I'm sure you [00:21:00] can fight this.

[00:21:01] And yet. That was going so much against my values. I'm like, I don't believe in competition. I believe in collaboration. I don't believe in owning stuff, especially gentle stuff, you know, gentle words. How could I, Sarah, own a word and say, this is now mine. Nobody. It's allowed to use it anymore, especially if I'm calling it a revolution, right?

[00:21:29] And so it was just completely against my values to go and say, Hey, this is going to be mine. I'm going to fight for it. And so it really helped me. with my intention, intuition and, and saying, well, I need to let this go. I need to, you know, say, okay, fine. I understand legally, this is yours and I move on and find a new term.

[00:21:56] And I think, yeah, the, the values and kind of [00:22:00] in my. moral principles really helped me in this in this decision, which of course wasn't easy, but in the end, I'm, I'm so glad this happened. So yeah, in conclusion, finding our personal power is all about marketing from within. Aligned with our values and really feeling a hundred percent grounded in how we're communicating and it helps you find then also the tactics that are aligned with you and tune out at the same time, all the other noise and all the other shoulds, for example, I'm not on Instagram, I'm no longer on Twitter, I've quit Facebook, I only release one podcast every two weeks now where everybody's saying, well, you should At least, you know, two episodes per week, but it just didn't work for me.

[00:22:53] So I do things aligned with my energy and my personal power, the way that [00:23:00] feels good and not what the latest guru marketer tells me to do. And I really, really think. It's so helpful to know what your personal power is, right? What your personal holistic and humane marketing superpower is. And I truly enjoy helping others find their holistic and humane marketing superpower by By guiding them through this journey of finding out, well, how are you wired?

[00:23:32] What's your, what are your values? What's, what's your worldview? And, and if you've read my Marketing Like We're Human book, I have a special reader offer that you can find on my website. If you go to humane. dot marketing under the tab books, it's kind of hidden away, it's under the tab books, not offerings.

[00:23:51] And so you, you click at the bottom, it says special reader offer. And it's a one off power hour with me [00:24:00] that comes with a 16 page workbook that I'd like you to prepare and reflect on before our time together. So it's really, it's deep work and I'll have you. You know, look at some of these assessments and then we can figure out together, well, what is your humane and holistic marketing superpowers so that you too can tune out all the rest.

[00:24:23] And maybe for you, it is Instagram, right? It's not going to be me saying, Oh, but for me, Instagram doesn't work. And so it shouldn't work for you either. It really depends on what you enjoy and how you're wired. And what your energy looks like. So if you're listening to this and think, oh, that would be really helpful, I'd love to help you and find more clarity and ease by figuring out your holistic and humane marketing superpower.

[00:24:53] So again, it's at humane. marketing. And then you just look for the tab [00:25:00] books and underneath there, you'll. Find the special reader offer. I really hope you got some value from my ramblings about superpower and humane holistic superpowers. Maybe take some of the assessments that I mentioned. I think it's really, really helpful.

[00:25:19] Personal Power is also the second module of the Marketing Like We're Human, aka the Client Resonator Program. So you can find out more about that by going to humane. marketing forward slash program. And if you're looking for others who think like you, then why not join us in the Humane Marketing Circle?

[00:25:39] You can find out more about that at humane. marketing. com. Forward slash circle, you find the show notes of this episode at humane dot marketing forward slash H M one seven three. And on this beautiful page, you'll also find a series of free offers, the humane business manifesto, [00:26:00] and the free gentle confidence mini course.

[00:26:02] As well as my two books, Marketing Like We're Human and Selling Like We're Human. Thank you so much for listening and being part of a generation of marketers who cares for yourself, your clients, and the planet. We are change makers before we are marketers. So go be the change you want to see in the world.

[00:26:22] Speak soon![00:27:00]

In today's episode, we dive into the P of Passion with our guest, Sophie Lechner, founder of The MAGNET Model.

Join us as we explore Sophie's passion, the impact of her passion project, the Marketing Mutiny, and how it all fits into the bigger picture of humane marketing.

In this episode with Sophie, we talked about:

• Her community passion project called the Marketing Mutiny
• Why she created it and her goal with it
• What makes it different from an online summit
• How a passion project creates a sense of purpose for your business
• How to create your own passion project
• and much more

--

Ep 172 transcript

[00:00:00] Sarah: Hello, Humane Marketers. Welcome back to the Humane Marketing Podcast, the place to be for the generation of marketers that cares. This is a show where we talk about running your business in a way that feels good to you, is aligned with your values, and also resonates with today's conscious customers because it's humane, ethical, and non pushy.

[00:00:23] I'm Sarah Zanacroce, your hippie turned business coach for quietly rebellious entrepreneurs and marketing impact pioneers. Mama bear of the humane marketing circle and renegade author of marketing like we're human and selling like we're human. If after listening to the show for a while, you're ready to move on to the next level and start implementing and would welcome a community of like minded, quietly rebellious entrepreneurs who discuss with transparency what works and what doesn't work in business, then we'd love to welcome you in our humane marketing circle.

[00:00:58] If you're picturing your [00:01:00] typical Facebook group, let me paint a new picture for you. This is a closed community of like minded entrepreneurs from all over the world who come together once per month in a zoom circle workshop to hold each other accountable and build their business in a sustainable way.

[00:01:16] We share with transparency and vulnerability what works for us and what doesn't work so that you can figure out what works for you. Instead of keep throwing spaghetti on the wall and seeing what sticks. Find out more at humane. marketing. com And if you prefer one on one support from me, my Humane Business Coaching could be just what you need.

[00:01:40] Whether it's for your marketing, sales, general business building or help with your big idea like writing a book. A book. I'd love to share my brain and my heart with you together with my almost 15 years business experience and help you grow a sustainable business that is joyful and sustainable. If you love this [00:02:00] podcast, wait until I show you my mama bear qualities as my one-on-one client, and find out more at Humane Marketing slash coaching.

[00:02:10] And finally, if you are a marketing impact pioneer and would like to bring humane marketing to your organization, have a look at my offers and workshops on my website at humane. marketing.

[00:02:27] Hello, and welcome back to the humane marketing podcast. Today's conversation fits under the P of. passion. So we're back at the first P of the humane marketing mandala with the seven Ps of humane marketing. If you're new here, you probably have no idea what I'm talking about, but you can download your one page marketing plan with the seven Ps of humane marketing at humane.

[00:02:55] marketing forward slash. One page, the number one and the word page. [00:03:00] And this comes with seven email prompts to really help you reflect on these different piece for your business. So this is not a prescriptive, here are the things you need to do, uh, but more of the, well, here are some questions to, first of all, question all your assumptions around marketing, but then also help you reflect on these different piece for.

[00:03:25] Your business. So today's guest is Sophie Leshner. Uh, after 25 years in corporate, Sophie became an entrepreneur and is now the founder of her second company, The Magnet Model. She helps mission driven entrepreneurs to find their audience on LinkedIn and engage with them so that they can spread the message and grow their business.

[00:03:49] Over the last 20 years, her activity on LinkedIn has led to speaking engagements in the US and abroad. Podcast invitations, finding clients and JV partners, and [00:04:00] even an interview in Forbes. She created the magnet model to help entrepreneurs build the authentic relationships that will propel their mission forward.

[00:04:09] Sophie works with clients one on one via courses, group programs, and workshops. This time I didn't invite Sophie to talk about LinkedIn. I invited her to talk about a passion project she calls the marketing mutiny, which as you'll find out is very much aligned with the humane marketing revolution. So we talked about her community passion project, uh, why she created it and her goal with it, what makes it different from an online summit, how a passion project creates a sense of purpose for your business, how to create your own.

[00:04:48] Passion Project and so much more. So without further ado, let's welcome Sophie Lechner to the show. Hi Sophie. So good to have you on the Humane [00:05:00] Marketing Podcast.

[00:05:01] Sophie: Hi, Sarah. I'm delighted to be here.

[00:05:04] Sarah: Wonderful. Yeah. I just thought it would be such a great topic to talk to you in the, as you know, um, doing these conversations in the, in the piece of humane marketing.

[00:05:16] And one of the first one is the passion P and I'm like, who do I know that is passionate and you and your passion project, uh, the marketing mutiny. Um, came to mind because I was just recently, recently participating or, or it kind of featured, I guess you would say. So, uh, I thought that makes a great conversations.

[00:05:38] Uh, obviously it's very aligned with, uh, how we think here about, uh, marketing. So yeah. Why don't we get started with you kind of telling us about the marketing mutiny project, why you created it and what it is.

[00:05:56] Sophie: Yeah. So I. Have been in the entrepreneurial world [00:06:00] for, what am I going to say, 11 years, and I have seen so many programs and so many tactics and so many, um, you know, shiny objects that come into the field of vision of new entrepreneurs.

[00:06:16] And I have coached a lot of them, and I have seen the devastation, I want to say, that a lot of these marketing tactics, um, that it wreaks havoc with the entrepreneur's, um, life and ambition and, and, and their opportunity for growing because, you know, we come into the world of, Entrepreneurship with the passion we have for our, you know, our expertise, what it is we can help people with, but we don't know about marketing usually.

[00:06:49] And so we start to sign up for all these different programs and then it gets overly complicated. It's the opposite of what you, you know, all of your marketing is about the [00:07:00] way you see, uh, um, entrepreneurship. So, um, I have seen in my coaching, a lot of entrepreneurs who are burnt out, discouraged, you know, don't understand what they need to do next.

[00:07:15] And, and I just was getting more and more and more frustrated and then angry at all of this noise. And I thought there is another way of doing business, but a lot of people don't know it until they've gone through the whole process of getting burnt and, and, and sometimes they give up. And so I thought, well, what, you know, if you get angry enough, you get to a point where like, I got to do something about this and what can I do?

[00:07:45] So I came across this kind of project and I thought, well, this is perfect. I will, I will, you know, get some people, invite them in, talk about it. And we'll just all together make as much noise as we [00:08:00] can about it. So we can crowd out all those aggressive marketers and. new entrepreneurs can hear about these humane ways of doing business.

[00:08:12] Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. Obviously it reminds me of my own story, my own, uh, you know, burnout sitting on a therapist's chair and, and all of that. And it's, it's interesting because You have 11 years. I have almost 15 years. So I think we've kind of been exposed to the same, you know, gurus and marketers and all of that.

[00:08:33] And it's just, yeah, seeing that. Overwhelmed seeing that frustration from, from maybe ourselves, but also from all these people that we're coaching is just like too much is too much. And so, yeah, you, you, you calling it a project, which I really like. And I think we can give a shout out to Ellie Trier who, um, has been on the [00:09:00] podcast before, right.

[00:09:00] And as a common friend of ours and, and she's kind of really like. Started this maybe idea of, of instead of calling it a marketing campaign, maybe calling it a marketing or not even calling it a project, right? Let's call it a passionate project because, yeah, it is tied into passion and maybe like you said, anger, but I, you know, that's great passion if there's some really strong emotion related to it, like anger.

[00:09:31] Um, And what I love about it is this community aspect to it, you, you called it the conversation. So tell us about this a bit more how you structured this and, you know, people are probably commonly used to an online summit. So maybe compare it to an online summit.

[00:09:52] Sophie: Yeah. Yeah. So that's a good starting point to give people sort of a frame of reference for how it worked.

[00:09:58] The commonalities is that [00:10:00] you're bringing. Um, specific people to speak about a topic and so you have an overarching topic and then you're bringing these people to, to speak and contribute, you know, their, their thoughts to it. The big difference I find, and I was always frustrated with summits where, you know, you'd watch a video, you get really excited and then.

[00:10:21] And then what? Like, you want to talk to the person who spoke and you want to talk to other people about it and you've got nowhere to go. You're kind of

[00:10:29] Sarah: siloed.

[00:10:30] Sophie: Yeah. Yeah, most of the time it's just like you're just... absorbing and no way to go. So I think everything happens through conversations. That's my passion is conversations and connections between people.

[00:10:43] So I said, okay, I want to bring these people, but I want to create it in a way that will, it will generate conversations. Cause it's not about, well, it is of course about the 10 minutes that I have invited people to speak, but it's about all the thoughts [00:11:00] that it generates in the entrepreneurs who. I want to have benefit from this.

[00:11:05] So I created a container where people can have these conversations and it was so lovely to have people, you know, react and, um, be able to comment and ask each other questions. And if I do it in my business, what that looked like, you know, that's what I wanted and it's worked. It was great.

[00:11:27] Sarah: Yeah. And I love that you said you created the container.

[00:11:31] Um, I think That's really what I'm doing with the Humane Marketing Circle, which you're also part of. And I think It's really does. It took me a lot of time to realize that hosting the container is is a lot of value because we're so trained to think, Oh, I have to, you know, create all these videos and create all this content and, uh, you know, yeah, [00:12:00] record thousands of speakers, things like that.

[00:12:03] We're actually. The value is in the container and you then kind of facilitating in this container and then just bringing in these little, you know, thoughtful reflections that people can have conversations around. Do you feel like that people got that value? They understood that?

[00:12:25] Sophie: Yes. And I also think that there's room for me to do something more with it.

[00:12:33] So I'm kind of in a transition phase because what happened was this was a project. It was for a month and I had 10 entrepreneurs and then that was going to be it. Right. And what actually happened is that I, I don't, I wasn't, I wasn't, I didn't know exactly what to expect. It was, it was a bit of an experiment, but I got a lot of interest and I got a lot of connections and I really enjoyed it.

[00:12:57] And I think the people who were in it really enjoyed it. And [00:13:00] whenever I spoke about, Oh, I don't really want it to end. Everybody was like, no, keep it going. So I thought about, I had to change the format a little bit, but, um, it's now sort of an ongoing project. So I'm not doing them every other day, like during that month, cause that's just not sustainable, but I'm doing two a month.

[00:13:22] And, um,

[00:13:24] Sarah: Yeah, two, two speakers

[00:13:26] Sophie: a month. Yes. So two new entrepreneurs who do marketing differently, uh, each month. And I had to streamline how it happens. And so I, I'm, I'm a little bit in the transition process right now. It's, you know, the momentum was not there anymore because I didn't look right away. So momentum is important as well when you're, you know, promoting something.

[00:13:51] So, um, I think there is community and there's also room for changing and evolving how I can. nurture [00:14:00] that even better. Right.

[00:14:01] Sarah: But, but I do feel like it's, it's become bigger than just a project for you to me. And by the way, we met through that. Right. And so obviously, yeah, our values are very much aligned.

[00:14:16] And so it's not necessarily the outcomes maybe that you had sought, but then there's all these new people that you meet. And, and, um, to me, it's really nice. Like, Now this is part of your marketing. This is part of your worldview. Uh, Just like humane marketing is about the same ideas. Like let's do marketing differently, right?

[00:14:39] And so marketing mutiny is now part of your worldview and you're a linkedin consultant in your you know day job And so people who will resonate with the marketing mutiny are gonna hire you Rather hire you than any other LinkedIn consultant because they resonate on that worldview level [00:15:00] and that's the beauty about this passion project.

[00:15:03] I feel

[00:15:04] Sophie: yeah, yeah. And you know, a lot of the values were already sort of what I was. Talking about and, and, and embodying in my content all the time. And so I think over time, I've been attracting these kinds of people who were attracted to this. Right. And then I think that's what caused marketing mutiny to be so popular, at least among my audience.

[00:15:29] Um, and it kind of gave it a. A form, you know, a word, a name, a concept that people could really rally around. Before wasn't there was more, you know, amorphous. It was

[00:15:43] Sarah: like abstract where now it's like,

[00:15:46] Sophie: Oh, yes, this is the thing, you know, And I have to say one of the biggest benefits of the project that I did not expect.

[00:15:55] And that I think is actually even better than anything I could have imagined [00:16:00] is. all the people that came out of the woodwork, so to speak, um, who I found out about, like you, for example, through the project. And so I realized as I was like not even halfway through that, you know, I had, I had Listed 10 and then as I was going through, I was like, Oh, but there's this person and that person and that person and I could actually have featured 20 or 30 and I was like, This is fantastic because that means because before it was, I was thinking, Okay, I have to make all the noise, you know, uh, to crowd out all those big marketing names.

[00:16:38] And I was like, Okay, I'll do it. But you know, I'll do what I can. Now there's so many of us, we can really all get together. And, and be heard more, right, that was also, that was the biggest benefit.

[00:16:54] Sarah: And maybe it's a good thing that, you know, you only, you only realized that they're [00:17:00] here because otherwise you would have been tempted to put everybody into the same month.

[00:17:05] And then it would have been kind of like an overload again. And now you have all these people who are like. You know, you can really spread it out over, um, over time. So, so, so you said, okay, it's going to be an ongoing thing. So, so yeah. How do you see this evolving?

[00:17:21] Sophie: You know, since I've started, I've, I've made, I have this list of people.

[00:17:26] I'm actually now Booked, so to speak, till December, so whoever I invite next, which I'm at a point where I have to, like, withhold, I can't, like, invite someone and say, well, you'll be featured in January, you know, so it's a bit frustrating because I want more, but at the same time, there's a little bit, a little bit of, you know, behind the scenes work that needs to happen.

[00:17:49] So, I've actually hired a VA part time to kind of help me with this, but it's not, you know, directly money generating. So I have to kind of, [00:18:00] you know, manage what's, what's bringing in. So anyway, um,

[00:18:05] Sarah: No, I really like you address that point because I think That's the part of passion that we can easily kind of get overpassionate about.

[00:18:15] And then, um, especially as, you know, givers, uh, in empaths, we're like, Oh, but this is so great. We want to do more. And then kind of go, uh, wait a bit. Um, you know, how do I, yeah. How do I manage in terms of The bills and now I actually need to hire somebody, you know, a VA to help me with it. So I'm actually putting money out of my pocket.

[00:18:39] So it is a thing that you need to be realistic about and say, this is how much I can put in. And in a way, I don't know if you agree, but in a way you just kind of need to trust. That what you give in will come back many fold.

[00:18:58] Sophie: Yeah, [00:19:00] exactly. Um, yes, in April, I had a absolute blast for all month, but you know, I didn't get much work done.

[00:19:08] Right. Other than that, so clients and that was it. So it's finding that balance. You're absolutely right. On the, on the other hand, so like, yeah, I could do one a week, but it's just not the same. But on the other hand, like you said, there's, There's a momentum, there's conversations that happen. I mean, look at you and I.

[00:19:29] So we met and I was like, wow, this is exactly what I'm talking about. So I, you know, signed up for your circle. I'm on your podcast. So there's like all these benefits through that more people would hear for about me and you know, maybe become clients. So it's a whole ecosystem and I think that's exactly what you teach with the seven Ps and Humane Marketing.

[00:19:53] Um, So yeah, it's, you got to find that balance.

[00:19:57] Sarah: It's trusting the invisible. It almost feels [00:20:00] like, you know, that is not often what we hear in marketing. It's more about the stats and numbers and conversions. And, and, and here we're talking about something intangible, intangible and kind of, yeah, invisible.

[00:20:15] And, and yet we know it, it works. But while we're still in the moment, it's a bit, yeah, sometimes a bit scary to trust it.

[00:20:26] Sophie: Yeah, a concrete example of that is that, you know, for the, um, for the integrity of the project, I wanted people to be able to sign up to get the emails to get, you know, the contributions, the videos, etc.

[00:20:42] But I didn't want them to go on my regular list. Right. Yes. You know, that's all from marketing my, my, my offer. Right. Right. And so I, I, I set up this place separately on my system and they were tagged and they were [00:21:00] excluded from the other emails. And then I had a few people say, well, you know, you're saying that we're not going to receive your email.

[00:21:05] What, what if we want to, so I added a line, like, you know, you're not on my main list, but if you want to, you know, and, um. And through that, and through being on LinkedIn, and through looking, you know, just finding out peripherally about me, a lot of the people did sign up for my list. So it's, it's interesting to see those dynamics, like people were just in there, in there for the marketing mutiny, but then they wanted to hear more about the rest of me and what I do.

[00:21:36] So yeah, it ended up, you know, being good. A couple of people are, have big complaints.

[00:21:42] Sarah: That's, that's so interesting. It's, it's almost like, As marketers, because I also see you as a humane marketer, right? We, we almost want to, especially because we're kind of going against the bro marketing, we're like, Oh, we gotta be super careful about what we're [00:22:00] doing.

[00:22:00] And then we always almost take it to a level where people then go. But I wanted this. So please, you know, send me your emails. Um, yeah, I, I have added this, this line to my promotions, kind of the, the, the, the big programs, uh, where can unsubscribe also from the, the emails. Um, And thanks to Adam, who's in our, uh, our circle as well, who, who taught us how to do that.

[00:22:27] And I wanted to, but I never figured it out. So now I, I know. And then I also have people, Oh, I accidentally pushed that link. And now can you please, I want to keep receiving your emails. I'm like, wow, that's unexpected. Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's, it's really interesting how we have. We're kind of like walking on eggshells now because we're like, oh yeah, we definitely don't want to do the pro marketing thing.

[00:22:54] Yeah. But then, yeah, we, we don't want to block people out either. So. [00:23:00] Yeah.

[00:23:00] Sophie: Yeah. And it's interesting how it really, I find our kind of marketing really changes the relationship that we have with our readers, with our audience, you know, especially, but even just our audience, like there's something You know, like a human connection that I feel is not there when you're in some of these other people's lists.

[00:23:22] it's just a transaction. It's just a piece of piece of paper. It's an email, but you know, it's concrete. It's not, there's no humanness in it. So yeah,

[00:23:33] Sarah: Yeah, and I think it's the transparency. What I always say, humane marketing, how is it different? It is really about the transparency and explaining everything you do.

[00:23:45] So by, you know, you saying you're not going to be added to my list. But if you want to, then, you know, you can do so here where until now, everything has been so kind of in the [00:24:00] shadow and, you know, kind of like shady and, and. That's what people, that's what has created this huge mistrust in marketing. It's like, Ooh, you know, what if I put my email in and then I'm going to get all of these things where here it's like, well, it's all out there.

[00:24:17] This is what's going to happen. Um, so I feel like really this, this transparency is so key in, in my

[00:24:25] Sophie: Absolutely. And I think a lot of it has to do with. letting people have their agency. And that was actually what one of the contributors in the April marketing mutiny, um, that was the, her value that she mentioned in her video was agency, your customer's agency.

[00:24:43] And I think that's what we are robbed of by the bro marketers, bully marketers is, you know, like you, you, you sign up for something and you, you, you kind of feel like you're being sucked into something. You don't have full agency over what happens next. [00:25:00] Right. Um, I think that's one of the key elements that we, you know, um, uh, for our.

[00:25:08] Our audience.

[00:25:09] Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. It's all about giving the power back. I really feel like the last 10 years we have disempowered our clients and giving the power back. Um, what I'd love us to, uh, I'd love you to share is kind of like if listeners are like, wow, that project sounds interesting. Um, if they wanted to run their own kind of community project, what would you tell them?

[00:25:38] Uh, where should they start? Like, um, you know, what do they need to think about first? What would make a good topic? Maybe things

[00:25:46] Sophie: like that. Yeah. So I think what's very important is to find a topic that You feel strongly about emotionally that others will [00:26:00] rally around so think of it as a movement, right?

[00:26:03] And you can start it small. You don't have to be scared by the word movement, but that's what I feel. Marketing mutiny is right. It's it's this idea with all kinds of ramifications underneath, but it's an overarching concept that It's your standing for something or against something. Um, it's a big idea.

[00:26:25] It's something people can rally around. That to me is the key thing for, uh, a project like this. Right. Um, it can also be, um, a topic where you want... to have people explore different, um, different aspects of, of, um, a topic. So I don't know, like, um, let's say burnout, you know, like, there's a lot of [00:27:00] Issues with burnout, all kinds of reasons why burnout happens, all kinds of therapies you can use, you know, there's like a lot of different avenues.

[00:27:11] And so you can take a topic and then explore all the different ways of talking about it and how that can become bigger conversation. Yeah, that's what I would say.

[00:27:24] Sarah: What I was thinking while you were talking is like, usually, you know, a marketer or a business coach would tell you to have like this goal for this project.

[00:27:36] It's like, oh, you know, they have these beautiful conversations and then Sophie comes in and sells them this LinkedIn consulting package, but that's not how it went. Right. So how do we, it's really like this mindset shift is like, wait a minute, I'm just hosting conversations. And there's not like a funnel what they're going to do next.

[00:27:57] And then they're going to, you know, go on this [00:28:00] webinar and buy this thing. So, yeah, tell us the reasoning behind that.

[00:28:05] Sophie: Yeah, I, uh, I obviously subconsciously thought it was, uh, you know, um, uh, goes without saying but clearly, clearly it's not, I shouldn't think that. So yes, it has to be a topic that is. you know, related to what you do or your, or that reflects your worldview that impacts how you do business, but it should not be.

[00:28:30] And some people have used these projects. to, you know, actually get leads and get them into a funnel and all of this. Um, but I think it is really critical. It's the same thing I say about how to use LinkedIn, but you know, that's another story, but it's critical to disassociate from the outcome. Just leave.

[00:28:52] the outcome. Do it for the beauty of it. Do it for the conversations. Do it because it's good for [00:29:00] society and the world at large to have this conversation and to raise awareness of whatever the topic you've chosen. Um, so yeah, no, if you, if you do it with I mean, I'm, I'm, I have no doubt it would work in bringing you leads, you know, but that is not the reason you should be doing it.

[00:29:25] You should do it or not for that reason.

[00:29:27] Sarah: Right. I, I also think that, you know, like you even said, the clients will emerge out of it, um, but it's in that organic, humane way, uh, because they, they resonate with your worldview and with your passion so much. And you just happen to be very, very good at LinkedIn.

[00:29:49] So it's kind of like, by the way. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'm

[00:29:53] Sophie: also that, yeah. It's a good, it's a good backdrop because, you know, when, when people You [00:30:00] know, hear about me through marketing mutiny and they realize, Oh, actually I do have this LinkedIn question problem, whatever. Um, they know already that the way I'm going to approach LinkedIn is not going to be sending a hundred DMS a day and, you know, sending spammy DMS.

[00:30:19] I mean, they, they know that. So it's, it's exactly.

[00:30:24] Sarah: Yeah, exactly. It's like part of your worldview. And that's by the way, why I transitioned out of LinkedIn, because I was like, you know, I could not deal with another, uh, you know, discovery call where people were asking me to sell a thousand leads or get them a thousand leads.

[00:30:43] And I'm like, this is just not for me. And, and I see now, obviously that I transitioned out of it. That I should have led with humane marketing, just like you're doing. That's how you then get the right people. So, so yeah, totally, [00:31:00] totally makes sense.

[00:31:01] Sophie: Yeah. When somebody comes to me saying, you know, can you, what's a good way of.

[00:31:06] Phrasing my DM outreach. I'm like, Oh, wrong person to have a very short conversation.

[00:31:17] Sarah: Yeah. Another, uh, kind of similar event type that I've just, um, seen, um, um, patchy don't know if you know, patchy, um, another common friend. Yeah. So she's doing some kind of round table, uh, event. And I really also resonated with that approach where it's, you know, still a conversation, but it's a roundtable, uh, conversation.

[00:31:44] And I, yeah, I'm really looking forward to that as well. So I think, you know, it's, it's in the zeitgeist, it's like, well, people don't want to just be talked down to, or, or kind of like talked to and, and, um, they want to, they [00:32:00] want to be heard and seen and have conversations. Yeah.

[00:32:03] Sophie: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's really breaking down the barriers, you know, like summits are, you know, you're over there in the summit, you know, video and I'm here in my office and that's it.

[00:32:16] And, um, with these projects, it's like, oh, so how. I could see myself absorbing some of that information because I can have that back and forth. I can interact with the person presenting. I can talk with other people about how, what it would look like. And it makes it. It makes it all possible. It makes it all, you know, usable and

[00:32:40] Sarah: it's approachable because you don't feel like, Oh, look at these, you know, gurus who are the summit speakers and they're so attached from everything.

[00:32:50] Where now it's like, well, they're just part of the conversation. Yeah. Same human level. Yeah.

[00:32:57] Sophie: I think people were surprised at first, they were like, [00:33:00] oh, so the person in the video is actually responding to me?

[00:33:06] Sarah: They're so famous, they can't even respond to it. That's funny. Um, yeah, please do tell us where people can join the Marketing Mutiny now that it's an ongoing thing. I'm sure all the listeners are like, oh, tell us how. Yeah.

[00:33:22] Sophie: Yeah. So. As I said, I was, you know, I'm transitioning to a new way of doing it because I didn't want to have to send all these emails.

[00:33:31] And so I've streamlined it for myself and to be able to continue doing it. So what I've decided to do is to actually feature the entrepreneurs in my LinkedIn newsletter. The reason I did that is because I have quite a bit big, um, following there. And so those people will get an email with the newsletter.

[00:33:54] So every other newsletter, it's kind of my going on goings on about [00:34:00] LinkedIn and every other newsletter is, um, a marketing entrepreneur being featured. So that's the way to, um, receive this information. And then the conversation takes place. in the comments to the newsletter, which are then, you know, um, all gathered in the LinkedIn group.

[00:34:21] And that's, that's behind the scenes. If people want to have one place to find everything that's in the LinkedIn group.

[00:34:27] Sarah: Wonderful. All right. So we'll link to the newsletter, uh, in that case in the show notes and, and people can find it there, or I guess otherwise they can also come to your website. So what's your website URL?

[00:34:40] Sophie: Yes. My website is themagnetmodel. com and, uh, there's the second part of that link. If you want to go straight to all the marketing mutiny stuff is marketing mutiny ebook. So themagnetmodel. com slash marketing mutiny ebook. It's a bit long, but we'll put it in the [00:35:00] show, you put in the show notes,

[00:35:01] Sarah: right?

[00:35:01] Wonderful. Yeah. And I assume people can find you on LinkedIn because that's where you mostly hang out. That's probably

[00:35:09] Sophie: the easiest of all. It's just find me there and you'll find all the, all the stuff, all the stuff about LinkedIn, but all the stuff about the marketing you can do

[00:35:18] Sarah: there. Well, thank you so much for having this passion project conversation.

[00:35:24] I, I really loved it and I love what you're doing and I love having you in the humane marketing circle. So thank you for that. Uh, I always have one last question that I ask all my guests and that is, what are you grateful for today or this week?

[00:35:41] Sophie: I am grateful for all the wonderful people, including you, that I've discovered through Marketing Mutiny and for the joy of doing business in a way that is Aligned with what I love, aligned with what I am passionate about.[00:36:00]

[00:36:00] Um, and this is the way to be an entrepreneur and every day is a joy. So that's what I'm grateful for.

[00:36:07] Sarah: Thank you. Me too. Great hanging out with you. Thanks so much. Thanks

[00:36:13] Sophie: for having me, Sarah.

[00:36:16] Sarah: I hope you enjoyed this episode about the P of passion. So important to find this purpose in your business. Please join the marketing mutiny at marketing mutiny.

[00:36:28] org. And you can also find out more about Sophie and her LinkedIn work at themagnetmodel. com where you'll also find a great quiz to find out what kind of LinkedIn user you are. Sophie is an active member of the Humane Marketing Circle. So if you're looking for others who think like you, then why not join us in the circle?

[00:36:50] You can find out more about our community at humane. marketing forward slash circle. You find the show notes of this episode at humane. [00:37:00] marketing forward slash H M 1 7 2. On this beautiful page, you'll also find a series of free offers such as the humane business manifesto and the free gentle confidence mini course, as well as my two books, marketing, like we're.

[00:37:18] Thank you so much for listening and being part of a generation of marketers who cares for yourself, your clients, and the planet. We are changemakers before we are marketers. So now go be the change you want to see in the world. Speak soon![00:38:00]

Join us for another episode as we dive into the world of communities with the Eddy Augusto, the community facilitator of the Humane Marketing Circle. Eddy shares thought-provoking perspectives on the distinction between communities and audiences, drawing from real-life examples, talks about the essence of "Community" and explains the numerous benefits of communities, for its members and the brand. Eddy's definition, "When at least two people begin to feel concern for each other's welfare," encapsulates the spirit of community.

Listen to this episode if you're considering to host your own community, or be part of one.

In this amazing episode Eddy and I talk about:

• the definition of a community, and how it's different from an audience
• the criteria of a healthy community
• how communities benefit the members as well as the brand
• our own experience within the Humane Marketing Circle
• and much more

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Ep 171 transcription
[00:00:00] Sarah: Hello, Humane Marketers. Welcome back to the Humane Marketing Podcast, the place to be for the generation of marketers that cares. This is a show where we talk about running your business in a way that feels good to you, is aligned with your values, and also resonates with today's conscious customers because it's humane, ethical, and non pushy.
[00:00:23] I'm Sarah Zanacroce, your hippie turned business coach for quietly rebellious entrepreneurs and marketing impact pioneers. Mama bear of the humane marketing circle and renegade author of marketing like we're human and selling like we're human. If after listening to the show for a while, you're ready to move on to the next level and start implementing and would welcome a community of like minded, quietly rebellious entrepreneurs who discuss with transparency what Works and what doesn't work in business, then we'd love to welcome you in our humane marketing circle.
[00:00:58] If you're picturing your [00:01:00] typical Facebook group, let me paint a new picture for you. This is a closed community of like minded entrepreneurs from all over the world who come together once per month in a Zoom circle workshop to hold each other accountable and build their business in a sustainable way.
[00:01:16] We share with transparency and vulnerability what works for us. And what doesn't work, so that you can figure out what works for you, instead of keep throwing spaghetti on the wall and seeing what sticks. Find out more at humane. marketing forward slash circle. And if you prefer one on one support from me, my humane business coaching could be just what you need.
[00:01:40] Whether it's for your marketing, sales, general business building, or help with your big idea like writing a book, I'd love to share my brain and my heart with you, together with my almost 50. Years business experience and help you grow a sustainable business that is joyful and sustainable. If you love this [00:02:00] podcast, wait until I show you my Mama Bear qualities as my one-on-one client, and find out more at Humane Marketing slash Coaching.
[00:02:09] And finally, if you are a Marketing Impact pioneer and would like to bring Humane Marketing to your organization, have a look at my offers and workshops on my website at Humane. Dot marketing.
[00:02:30] Hello friends. Welcome back to the Humane Marketing Podcast. Today's conversation fits under the P of Partnership, and if you're a regular here, you already know that I'm organizing the conversations around the seven Ps of the Humane Marketing Mandala. And if this is your first time here, big warm welcome.
[00:02:50] You probably don't know what I'm talking about, but you can download your one page marketing plan with the Humane Marketing version of the 7 Ps of Marketing at [00:03:00] humane. marketing forward slash one. Page, the number one and the word page. It comes with seven email prompts to really help you reflect on these different P's for your business.
[00:03:13] So partnership is probably my favorite P of the seven P's of the Humane Marketing Mandala. It's also my priority among the 17 sustainable development goals. Uh, goal number 17 is also about, about partnership. So I really think like we, uh, Win if we collaborate more and so I made that really my priority this year with the collaborative workshops that I'm hosting for the members of the humane marketing circle, but also they're open to the public and I bring in these different people that I think are very, very smart, uh, human beings that have a certain expertise that does members of the circle [00:04:00] and, uh, the outside community are interested in.
[00:04:03] And this, these collaborations have been just so joyful. They like, they, they were so. Easy to set up, they're fun to organize. And so, yeah, I'm going to continue with these, uh, partnerships for sure. So today we talk about the P of partnership to a community or within the community. And I bring you our very own Eddie Augusto, the community facilitator of our Humane Marketing Circle to talk about communities.
[00:04:37] So Eddie is an entrepreneur and self directed learning facilitator with a background in computer science and computer engineering. He decided to pursue a more authentic and innovative path in his career and personal life. He specializes in community building, collaboration, and self directed. education.
[00:04:58] He holds a degree [00:05:00] in socio environmental design from Gaia University, collaborative project design from Colab Design, and self directed learning architecture from Masters of Learning, along with other certifications in non violent communication and agile learning. Currently, Eddie works as a community designer, facilitator, and manager, helping businesses to create an environment where people feel belonging and care for each other.
[00:05:26] with their customers. Eddie also works as a mentor, helping people to live an intentional lifestyle, purposefully and consciously seeking to align their actions, choices, and values with their personal goals and values. He believes that communities that learn together are the future and works to assist them in developing these collaborative.
[00:05:48] Learning skills. In this amazing episode with Eddie, we talk about the definition of a community and how it's different from an audience, the [00:06:00] criteria of a healthy community, how communities benefit the members as well as the brand, our own experience with the Humane Marketing Circle, and so much more.
[00:06:11] I'm just so thrilled to share this conversation with you. So here's Eddie and I talking about communities.
[00:06:21] So good to speak to you. It's a, it's a different setting, but it's still just us. Right. So really excited to have you on the humane marketing podcast. 
[00:06:31] Eddy: Very happy to be here, Sarah, to talk about a subject that I love, which is communities. 
[00:06:37] Sarah: Yeah, yeah, you are the, I guess as a, as a, an introduction, you are the community facilitator for the Humane Marketing Circle.
[00:06:48] I think it would be a funny story to tell how I came across you. So I actually found you on Fiverr of all places, right? So I was looking [00:07:00] for a community. I think I probably put in community manager. That's usually the term that I was familiar with. And, and then I just kind of, you know, saw what was there.
[00:07:11] And, and immediately when you were, uh, you were very, you know, how you are also in person, how I know you are, you're very firm about your beliefs. And I love that about you. And it was like very clear on this fiber page. It said, I only work with. Purpose driven or something like that you explain who you work with and, you know, that's the only work you're interested in.
[00:07:36] So I'm like, yeah, this is my guy. So that's That's how we, uh, got in touch and it's just, uh, yeah, it's when I think back, it's like Fiverr out of all places, but yeah, people always ask me, have you ever been lucky with Fiverr? I'm like, I have been lucky very, uh, quite a few times with Fiverr, so. Here we are.
[00:07:56] It's probably a year later and [00:08:00] I'm talking about communities now. So, yeah, why don't we start with, um, kind of like an introduction to communities, you know, maybe, like, maybe we can start with. defining communities, you know, what is, what is a community? What makes a community? 
[00:08:19] Eddy: Yeah, sure. Um, so community is a very old word, right?
[00:08:28] Uh, which has a very broad meaning as well. And then community would be individuals who have, who share something, who share a purpose or who share a place where they live, um, and for, for, uh, but this meaning is not enough for us to, to talk about, uh, what we want to talk here about and what I like to talk about, um, is about intentional communities.[00:09:00] 
[00:09:00] Where we are a community because we want to be a community. So there is an intention of being part. It doesn't happen by, by, by accident. Uh, so I think this is the first thing to, to, to say the difference between a community by accident, like a class, for instance. Um, or an intentional community here. I think we will talk about the intention community where people, they have a clear purpose and they want to connect, um, 
[00:09:33] Sarah: Rather than in a class where you have to be there, right?
[00:09:37] Eddy: Yes, exactly. So the, the word community has been used in so many ways, uh, mainly lately. And I don't really like that, to be honest, I like to, when I talk about community, I am speaking of something which is not just [00:10:00] people having the same purpose, but they have connection between them, they care about each other and there is this sense of care, genuine care.
[00:10:11] So, and we could give an example, would a gym be... community, right? Uh, well, people, they have the same purpose. They go there to, to get fit. Um, well, it could be, but it's not necessarily right. So people can go in and go out without saying a word to each other, without knowing each other's name. Uh, but they can also do something like CrossFit has been doing.
[00:10:39] Uh, they start, they can start to train together and to go for challenges together, uh, right? So, they can build the community. Um, so that's why I like to, to point out that we are speaking about intentional communities and that intentional communities is not... Neither social media. I really see like, [00:11:00] as you said, you looked for a community manager and in my page in Fiverr.
[00:11:04] It was written very well. I don't take care of social media and someone and someone who's normally looking for a for a community manager as most of people call it. Uh, they would be like, then what do you do, what do you do?
[00:11:23] Now, 
[00:11:23] Sarah: it's so true. And what you say about this, uh, fact that, you know, community, it's almost like a buzzword now, everybody uses it. And I think what you're also addressing is the idea of, uh, An audience versus a community, because that's where I see it, uh, misused often in, you know, kind of this online space, people are calling their.
[00:11:49] Audiences communities. So like they would call their Facebook group, uh, community, which again, we could argue that maybe there is a [00:12:00] common purpose. Um, for a Facebook group. But the big question is really, well, are they connected with each other? Or are they only connected to the guru, you know, the leader of this audience and even more is there a selling intention from the guru to the audience, right?
[00:12:22] That's really where the difference is between a community that cares and that there's care in between the members and the community leader that only cares about his wallet being filled. And so then, then it's more an audience. Yeah. Yeah. 
[00:12:39] Eddy: Yes, exactly. Um, yeah, this difference between like managing your audience and building a community.
[00:12:49] And I think we can, we can give some principles to understand it better. And we could say that a community, an intentional community, what we are [00:13:00] speaking of here right now, uh, is something that is purpose driven. So it is not for, uh, of course, we all want to earn money with the community as well. We want everybody to earn a lot of money and have abundance in their lives.
[00:13:16] But it is purpose driven and it is relationships first. So, like, It is not about the image of the guru of the boss, and it is about building relationships. Um, we could measure the quality of this community by the amount of connections that there are and the strength of the connections between the people.
[00:13:40] Um, and I think there is also this continuous improvement on how we can better manage this community, how we can improve the connections between people. And also I think, and so I think this is, this would be like the basic principles that can already [00:14:00] differentiate, uh, from audience, right? And I think we can learn a lot from indigenous people.
[00:14:07] Um, they teach us a lot about community. And personally myself, I was first interested in live communities, like people living together, having a common common sense and et cetera. And then later on, I started to study how we could also, how might we create that online in the pandemics? And it is, and then I discovered that it is possible and technology is here for that.
[00:14:38] We can use technology with. Um, with a clear purpose and with intentionality, and we can build communities online and, and actually one of the best things that communities online make is to make real friends who will find each other in real life as well. Yeah. So the two worlds, [00:15:00] they, they merge. Right. And I 
[00:15:03] Sarah: would just, would you, would you agree?
[00:15:05] Sorry, go on. Yeah. Would you agree to say that? Um, you know, this is obviously the ideal picture of a community. Um, and I feel like in the humane marketing circle, we're getting there. And there's definitely already a lot of connections happening in between members. Uh, we see projects being created. Uh, and yet, It is, I think, as a community leader, if we now talk from the community facilitator point of view, leader point of view, it is probably really one of the things that, um, I wouldn't say hard, but it's like That's, they need still support with that.
[00:15:50] You can't just assume, Oh, we now have the people and now just, you know, be all happy and friends. Um, so I feel like that's something that we are [00:16:00] constantly working on in the, in the circle. So, so, and that's what you're working on as well. And, and you're, you are, um, creating these network weaving calls as we, as we call them.
[00:16:12] So, so. Really focusing, actually, I'll let you explain them. So, so how does the net weaving calls feed into these interrelationships between the community members? 
[00:16:26] Eddy: Right. I love this point that you are bringing up now because yeah, sometimes people think that it is just put all these people in the same room and let them speak to each other, but our education is such that we are, um, We are used to some kind of behavior, some kind of ways to, um, to connect or to, to keep disconnected, uh, when we are engaging with people in conversations, when we are meeting new [00:17:00] people.
[00:17:00] Uh, and there is also like, uh, we, we sometimes need some time to break the ice and et cetera. Uh, so I really think that the facilitation, uh, now speaking about community facilitation, it is about setting the space, uh, for, for the connections to happen. And these we make with pro, uh, appropriate, appropriate.
[00:17:24] Uh, methods and appropriate tools. Uh, so we design, will it be one by one in, in, in breakout rooms? Uh, what will be the question that will, that we will bring for them to wander and to talk about? Uh, so we, we try to design something that gets out of the, um, uh, the normal, the conventional, right? Because then we get out of the, of, of the automatic.
[00:17:51] And then we can really get to know each other for real. And from this point, we build stronger relationships in much [00:18:00] less time. So I think it is all about that. And the net weaving connections that we make in, in our, uh, in our community. And also, I bring this in every community that I work with, my community or as a service.
[00:18:17] The net weaving connections, the net weaving call, sorry, is a moment that is, the main purpose is to build connections with people. And it is funny because normally, most of the people, they take time to see the importance of that. They don't want to go there. No. Go there just to meet people, you know? Yeah, I don't have time 
[00:18:41] Sarah: for 
[00:18:41] Eddy: that, right?
[00:18:42] Exactly. It's not my, my, my priority to meet people, you know, but I'm coming to the conclusion more and more over time that it is exactly this meeting people with intentionality. So it's not just about hanging out with whoever, wherever, [00:19:00] and speaking about whatever as well. Uh, but it is about being in a specific place with a specific shared purpose, with a specific designed space, uh, for the thing to happen.
[00:19:12] And I'm coming more and more to the conclusion that this very thing is... What brings us more partnerships in business and more health and more, uh, there is a very recent research that I love that they have researched the whole life of a bunch of people in the United States. From childhood until, until, um, uh, late, uh, until, until 80s, you know, and they have showed that one of the main things that people, uh, who, who have been happy in most of their lives they have in common is that they have strong family connections, strong [00:20:00] friend connections.
[00:20:01] And, and I think that it is very important for us to keep that in mind, like, what is the final purpose in the end? What it is all about, you know, uh, making business and et cetera, and making partners going here and there, taking an airplane, uh, making people, um, passing time and hours and hours, spending hours in front of the computer sometimes.
[00:20:24] What it is all about. Bye bye. And for me, it is really about being self, uh, feeling self, self fulfilled, feeling happy, uh, feeling that we are useful. And as this research shows, I will look for the link later on, and then if you want, you can put it in the description. Yeah, um, well. It really, it is really about the connections we make.
[00:20:50] So, um, yeah. 
[00:20:52] Sarah: You know, as you're talking, um, I'm thinking of another, uh, word that we often use in the business language, which is the [00:21:00] networking group, right? And so that's another kind of confusion that some people confuse a community with a networking group or a networking group with a community. And so I think it's really important also to point out that a community, at least our community and the way I think you see and I see communities is not a networking group.
[00:21:23] So it's not a place where you just come to, uh, you know, get clients and create business. And I think that's the new kind of reality that we're creating, uh, in the Humane Marketing Circle, which is a community that is business oriented because we're mainly talking about marketing and growing our business, uh, in a different way.
[00:21:48] And yet it relies on friendship and personality, personal connections, and authenticity, uh, first, right? So that is, [00:22:00] So different from the typical networking events that I ever went to not really doing them anymore, but where you are just showing up as a business person. Uh, what we're trying to create, uh, in the, in the community is.
[00:22:16] Holistic community, I guess. It's like where you show up as a whole person. You are, uh, you know, on one hand, yes, you are in business. You are a business person, but the friendships, they don't happen so much on the business level. They happen on the personal level. And that's why we're kind of creating these spaces where.
[00:22:37] We're allowing, you know, the whole human to, to be there and connect on this deeper level. That is never the personal, the business level. It's always the personal level. Right. And so we find like communities that are business oriented. Are probably even harder to create, uh, at least the [00:23:00] way we want to create them because it's like this mindset shift.
[00:23:02] It's like, Oh, I'm not just coming to get something, but I'm also coming to give and really invest that time. It's a slower approach to, to business in a way. Would you, would you agree with that? 
[00:23:18] Eddy: Yes, for sure. This, there is a question that I love to bring in net weaving calls, which is who are you besides your work?
[00:23:27] Exactly. You know, because we are so used. Oh, Sarah, what do you do for a living? And then you start to speak about what brings you money in your life, you know, but this is just a tiny part of Sarah. And in the problem, let's let's talk about a bit about the problem, right about business oriented, um, kinds of community, if we call that, um, well, there is [00:24:00] so many people.
[00:24:01] With so many clients and so many, so much money, and yet they don't feel self-fulfilled yet, they don't feel happy about what they do, and I think this is what we are trying to do differently. We are trying to make business. As it goes along with our purpose, with our mission, with our life, with who we are, we don't need to use a mask.
[00:24:27] Uh, we can expand our being, uh, in connection to people. And I think this is all about, um, marketing as we are humans. And this is all about, um, community in the way we are talking here. Intentional, intentional communities. It is about taking, uh, getting out of this. Automatic way of doing everything, um, which is quite a void, empty.
[00:24:55] We feel empty in the end and, and realizing that and trying to do [00:25:00] things, uh, with meaning and with consciousness, uh, bringing consciousness to everything that we are doing. And I think that community is like the one, the only way that we can go. Yeah, 
[00:25:13] Sarah: yeah, yeah. No, so true. What I just also thought is that, um, You know, usually in business, you have these membership sites or kind of like learning programs where the idea is to have everybody at the same level so that then there is something that is being taught and we go through a program and then, you know, you take people from level A to level B.
[00:25:39] And so it's intentional that everybody is in the same level. Uh, if I think about a community, let's take, you know, an, an inden indigenous community or, uh, you know, I grew up in a hippie community, right? Uh, there was not everybody at the same level. Everybody had different experiences. Everybody had, you know, [00:26:00] different age.
[00:26:01] Um, and so that's also what we're trying to build into, uh, the humane marketing circle. It's not, For, you know, only for beginner business owners or only for business owners that make six figures or, you know, that horrible language that we don't like, um, it really is kind of like all over the spectrum because, um, everybody needs community.
[00:26:26] It's not like, oh, only these, you know, people need community, only beginners need community or only experts need community. I think that's an essential part. And I actually think that, you know, people come with different things that they can bring and different things that they need. So if I think about the people in the community who have more experience, um, They, they, what they want is maybe to, you know, come as mentors and share their knowledge and, [00:27:00] and create, uh, other visibility, uh, opportunities for themselves.
[00:27:04] They don't need so much of the, you know, initial advice. But they still feel like they're being seen and heard and recognized and, and useful. Right. And I think that's also a new concept in the business world. It's like, Oh, we don't just put everybody in the same bucket. We're actually kind of looking at, uh, people as a whole and, and accept everybody and bring everybody in as a leader in their chair, wherever they are in there.
[00:27:33] Experience. How does this apply to other communities that you that you have seen or worked with? 
[00:27:41] Eddy: Um, yeah, I, I see these that you're saying, like, uh, as a belief that comes from military things, you know, and then, and then it gets to the school where we separate, uh, children by age, you know, Uh, and it looks like we are getting, you [00:28:00] know, uh, older and then we are getting smarter because we have, uh, understood more content.
[00:28:07] But in the end, as you say, like, there is such a big opportunity when we, when we merge, uh, beginners with people who are experienced. And, um, and I see it as, uh, the ideal, actually, the ideal pool of a community for learning, uh, purpose, for learning purpose. I think it is this pool of beginners and experienced people.
[00:28:34] And I think that the way it also, uh, our, uh, our, our role as community managers, uh, for in this, uh, is to realize the participation of people, what they are giving and pointing it out for the whole community. Uh, hey, um, hey, Sarah, hey, hey, community, uh, Sarah this month, she took a lot of [00:29:00] energy to build this and that for you.
[00:29:02] Uh, hey, community. Eddie this month he is offering a session, you know, let's thanks, uh, Adam because he was this month, uh, you know, taking care of the community. So we are like pointing out and bringing attention to the, um, um, to what people are doing for the well, for the welfare of the others. Um, and I think And this is a way to, because yeah, the more experienced people, how can we, how can they feel like they are learning and getting the best of it by practicing what they already have experienced or by learning how to teach what they already have experienced.
[00:29:44] So we, we can give more responsibility. And then here we, we are already starting to talk about benefits for the brand, because even if we are not. Driven by, uh, by money. And when we are driven by [00:30:00] purpose, uh, a brand can be driven by purpose. And what are the benefits for the brand, right? Um, I'm going from one, uh, I'm connecting, right?
[00:30:11] Uh, subject to the other one, just to say that, yeah, the benefit for, for the brand is, and for the members as well, is Having, uh, in a life space of learning, of constant learning. And because... When people, they identify themselves, um, to, to this place where they feel welcome and they feel belonging. They want to talk about it.
[00:30:44] They want to be part of it. They want to bring new people to, to this place because they love being there. Um, and I'm, and it is real, you know, it's how I feel. So I think this is the benefit that, uh, the brand has. [00:31:00] Because we are, we are really talking about loyalty with members. We are talking about extra value out of contribution and collaboration from members who are willing to do what they are doing.
[00:31:15] We, we don't even have to ask them because they love being part of the thing and they want to contribute. Uh, and for me the, this is amazing, you know, and for the members, And the benefits for the members, um, I see like, you know, we, what in the end, how do we learn things, uh, new things in the end, right? How do we really actually learn?
[00:31:45] It is not just by reading a book, it is not just by, by taking on a course, uh, and it is not just by being in a WhatsApp group. Um, we really [00:32:00] learn stuff. When we are exposed to new information, and then we are able to test it with what we already believe, what we already know. And then we have a safe space to make new trials with this new information that we've got.
[00:32:21] And then we obtain knowledge from, from this. Uh, tests that we have tried, right? And for me, uh, this is the thing about community. What I, what, what we are coming to the conclusion, I feel like it is a world movement. We are understanding that we are finding finally getting that is that being around people who resonate with you, uh, and who want to learn.
[00:32:49] Things that are similar to what you want to learn is the best way to learn whatever you want to learn because you have a space. to be [00:33:00] exposed to that, to learn new things and to test out your new ideas. And then you really have in your body the knowledge, um, and you have a place to practice. So I think this is what we are coming to the conclusion.
[00:33:15] And this is the importance of community. It is like the difference between, um, taking on a yoga retreat of one week and our. are living with yoga people, you know, and practicing and seeing them practicing every morning, every morning you wake up, you wake up late, they are practicing yoga, you wake up late, they finished their yoga, you know, like after a week, you're like, okay, I'm going to wake up today a bit earlier now try to practice with them.
[00:33:45] And I think By managing our context, uh, architecting our context with intentionality is the best way for us to learn. And this is all community is 
[00:33:58] Sarah: about. [00:34:00] Yeah, so true. And it reminds me of what's on the on the invitation page for the humane marketing circle. I think I said something like, you know, we we talk about and figure out what works for us in marketing, because there's so much content out there that tells you how you should be doing marketing.
[00:34:21] Right. And so I feel like Yes, I could teach my way of marketing, which I do in the Marketing Like a Human program, but what I really want to offer is this space and place where we can talk about what works for us and then figure out, um, or, or, yeah, we share what works for each of us and then we can figure out, oh, That works for her.
[00:34:46] Let me try that and see how that works for me. And since our values are aligned, our worldview is aligned, then there is a much higher chance that your idea will work for me because it's ethically aligned, right? [00:35:00] Rather than going, Oh yeah, but that doesn't really sound good. So, so it's, it's, yeah, it's exactly what you, you said.
[00:35:07] I thought of another benefit that members often say is this idea of the the global community, right? So yes, we are aligned. Yes, we have the same values, the same worldview, and yet we come from different places. You were in Brazil. There's members from different countries in Europe. There's members from the U.
[00:35:27] S. And so it brings us these different perspectives that really helps us also then look at things with a different eye and go on. That's how they do it. Or, you know, also different topics like it. In the circle, we, you know, me, we mainly talk about marketing and business, but you know, obviously politics comes up and, and, and I do talk about ethical behavior.
[00:35:58] And, and so it's nice to have [00:36:00] different opinions and different things that people, uh, bring in because we are a global community and, and yet we're all part of this shared humanity. So I feel like the global aspect and learning from each other. In this way is so enriching compared to let's say I do an online course at home and you know, I'm just in my office and I'm just learning by myself.
[00:36:23] It's not the same, not the same thing, right? Um, the other thing that, um, you kind of touched upon because you mentioned Adam and Adam is one of our members and he's also one of the ambassadors. So that's another way that more experienced members is. Um, get kind of this, um, you know, value for them, but also value to the community because, uh, we have in, in the circle for example, we have three ambassadors who are then taking turns in, in hosting the calls.
[00:36:58] And so that is, [00:37:00] For me, when I started that, I was like, this is exactly what I wanted. I don't want to be the only reference person in this community. A community is never ego driven or guru driven. It's, it is, you know, based on different people. And so it's just so amazing to see, you know, Adam, Rachel and Kelly bring in their perspectives and hosting their calls.
[00:37:25] And, um, yeah, I'm just curious, uh, if you see that working in other communities as well, this ambassador model. 
[00:37:35] Eddy: Yeah, so this is what we would call the badges. This is a very known feature for our communities. And a place that has been using, uh, very well all this knowledge about communities is the Web3 projects.
[00:37:53] If you navigate a bit on these new projects about cryptocurrencies and everything, uh, they are [00:38:00] actually making a very good use of all these tools, creating very intentional groups on, on, on Discord, for instance. And in gaming people as well, they also make a very good use of these tools that can reinforce the strength of a community and the badges, for instance, we can we can have, um, when people they they have, they and something like normally mature communities, they will have few few circles that are inner circles and there are outer circles.
[00:38:39] But the goal is not to get to the inner circle. Each circle has its own reason, and people can choose whether they want to be, you know, in the visitor space, or they want to be a resident, you know, or they want to be an ambassador. And I really think about [00:39:00] communities of people who live together, for instance.
[00:39:04] You don't necessarily want to live there. You might just want to pass the day. Or you might want, or you might want to make a volunteering, um, or you might want to try to become a resident and then the, uh, the community might have a status for you while you understand the values and while, uh, you get to really understand if it resonates to you and the community, if you resonate to it.
[00:39:31] Um. until a day you become a leader in the community as well. So I think this is all the, the badges, they are actually a way to symbolize and to represent what is already happening. It's the status that are already happening in the communities, in the circles. Uh, in the groups and we are just making it visible and making it [00:40:00] intentional.
[00:40:00] Uh, here are the types of presence that you can have in this place. And this one means this and that one means that, you know, these are the responsibilities of this one and that one. Um, what do you want to, to, to be, you know, how do you want to be part of it? And if you, if you want to be, uh, in. Ambassador, it might have a way until you get there because the ambassadors are mainly, are maybe people who already understand, uh, very well, the, the core values of the business and et cetera.
[00:40:36] So, uh, right. So the badges. Uh, really this thing about seeing what are the roles that, that we have in the community and it is not about creating it, like designing all the thing. Okay. We'll have these and that, and that badge, it is to create as, as it comes actually, uh, to, well, there is a, [00:41:00] there is a, uh, a person, the community is growing.
[00:41:03] We had just one. one layer in the beginning. Normally, the communities, they start having one layer, which is, are you a part of it or you are not? Uh, the only day later, and then the community starts to get bigger and bigger, let's say, and then you start to see that you are not managing by yourself. And then you see that there are two members who are very participative and they want to take on more responsibility.
[00:41:31] They love being part of that. They want to offer more. And then you create a badge for them to say, Hey, you are an ambassador now, and they will love to be recognized by the, by the effort that they make, um, people will also understand what is the difference they will understand. Okay, these people, they.
[00:41:52] You know, uh, they are here for a longer period. They understand better. They can help me if I need help. Uh, I can count [00:42:00] on them. Uh, that's why he or she is leading this session, you know? So I really think it is all about making clear and pointing out what will naturally happen inside the group of people.
[00:42:15] Sarah: Yeah, yeah. And by saying that naturally happened, I think it really comes to this patience and slow growth. It is, unless, you know, you have a big brand in, in, in, in your, your community is around, uh, an existing kind of, um, maybe the audience that turns into a community, but otherwise, if you're, you know, starting out with a handful of people, it will go through these stages of growth and it's normal that, you know, first, um, yeah, you, you really have to kind of, I think the biggest thing is you have to.
[00:42:55] Let go of, um, at least at the [00:43:00] stage where the ambassadors come in, it really, it's growing, um, into something that is Beyond you as a person, right before maybe you're the only one kind of hosting it and managing it. But once the ambassadors come in, and then you have a community facilitator. Now it's bigger than you.
[00:43:21] It's not your community anymore. It's the community. And that's why these roles then just naturally evolve and happen because The feedback comes from the community. It's not you. So more, so much designing it anymore. And, and, and that's what's beautiful. But again, in a business context, I would say that it takes some learning.
[00:43:45] I, I know that it did for me. It takes some learning to look at it in a different way. To look at, uh, the, as a community, not as a. Business project so much, but more as this natural thing that has [00:44:00] its own it is its own entity and it will grow if you give it the space to grow and the time as well, so I feel like we're.
[00:44:12] Kind of coming to to the end. But I want to ask you if we forgot anything that you absolutely wanted to to mention. What would what would you say for closing words about communities? 
[00:44:29] Eddy: Yeah, uh, yeah, I'll just say a word about what you're saying. That is, uh, I love to say the phrase that my role has been fulfilled.
[00:44:40] If people, they come in, they come in the end and they say, Oh, we have done it by ourselves. Uh, it is a bit ungrateful, but you know, it is the way it should be, you know. I shouldn't be expecting to be the center of the attention. If my, my intention is really that [00:45:00] people learn the best they can, they get the best they can.
[00:45:03] Um, if they think they have done everything by themselves, they don't even realize what I have, uh, acted in the place for that to happen. Um, well, this is the ideal actually, you know? So I think it is really about that, about, uh, this creating this space. for, for everyone to learn together and to build friendships that leads to business as well.
[00:45:29] We are, we have been saying over and over, it is not about business and not about making money, but this is actually, it is exactly, but it is another way of making money. It is about making money as we, uh, fulfill our purpose. And the more we fulfill our purpose, more we make money. I think this is the thing, right?
[00:45:55] Yeah. Um, and I think the le I just want to mention a, a last thing and [00:46:00] then say, uh, a phrase to sum it up. Um, you, you talked about the importance of diversity as well, and. It is very important to point out that, uh, it's very easy to resonate on values. Like, we all value respect, we all, we all value silence, we all value this and that, uh, uh, collaboration.
[00:46:25] But the way that we, uh, actually understand respect or silence or collaboration or love are very different from culture to culture, from family to family, from person to person. And this will lead also to conflicts. And this is part of community. This is very important. If your community never has any conflict, then you have a pseudo community.
[00:46:54] It is something that you are calling a community, but it doesn't, it didn't test yet [00:47:00] the reality, you know? And the reality is such that we have different understanding of our same values. We all value the same thing, but we think this is something different. Uh, you think something different. And testing this and bringing it to, to, um, you know, building it together.
[00:47:19] Okay. How might we understand in the practice, what respect means and how we, how might we value that as a community, uh, testing this reality through conflict is very important. So, uh, this is part of community and I just wanted to point it out. 
[00:47:41] Sarah: And it's part of our role to hold the space for that. To be able to hold the space.
[00:47:46] To welcome. Yeah. To welcome. To welcome it. Exactly. Yes. Yeah. And that obviously means that we are continuously doing our inner work so that we can show up as these grounded people who are able [00:48:00] to hold the space and don't. React and you know, go immediately into reaction. Um, so yeah, it's a it comes with with, uh, I would say great responsibility as well to to be facility community facility facilitators because it's more than just an online thing, right?
[00:48:21] These are real human. connections that are happening with, with all the baggage that we come with, uh, as well. So, yeah, thank you. 
[00:48:34] Eddy: There is a book for those who want to read more about that, uh, from Scott Peck, a different drum, it is called, and he says there are four stages of community, pseudo community.
[00:48:47] And then it goes to the conflict where we start to realize that we have different, uh, understandings of our values and it gets so big that we cannot, uh, keep to ourselves anymore. And then [00:49:00] it leads to emptiness where most of the people, they go away, they leave. Um, and then it can come to community. So we have to cross all these stages to build a real community.
[00:49:12] How much time it takes? It depends if it is a retreat of one week, uh, one evening together, or one year program. It will take a different time. But the idea... The idea is to pass through the stages. And of course, when you get to community, then you are going to sell the community again, right? Hopefully.
[00:49:35] Sarah: What's the name of the author? Say that again. Scott. 
[00:49:38] Eddy: Scott Beck. 
[00:49:39] Sarah: Beck. Okay. Well, make sure to add in the show 
[00:49:43] Eddy: notes too. Yeah, sure. And then I just want to say a phrase and also mention another author that I really like. Um, so. The phrase, the phrase is that You are starting to have a community [00:50:00] when you have at least two people begin beginning to feel concerned for each other's welfare.
[00:50:06] And the true measure of of a community success is not the size of its membership, but the depth. of the relationships and the strength of the shared purpose. So this is the perspective we are looking at. And I want to mention the author Charles Vogel, who have a book written, The Art of Community, where he gives principles and, you know, some, some steps and how you can build.
[00:50:38] Uh, a community. And I also want to say that, uh, whoever is listening to this, uh, podcast, and if you are looking to, for learning more about community on, or how to establish a community, how to get more intentional with the community you already have, uh, feel free to, to look for [00:51:00] me. I'll be very happy to help you.
[00:51:02] Sarah: Yeah. Thank you. I was going to get to that. So thanks so much for, for sharing, uh, everything we'll make sure to, to link to, to the two authors you mentioned. Um, yeah, please do not actually, before I ask you to share where people can find you. One more thing that I thought of in terms of diversity is the age, because I remember a kind of a friend or a mentor that I like in the marketing space, Mark Schaeffer, who also wrote a book about communities.
[00:51:40] What is it called? It's called, uh, belonging to the brand, why community is the next big thing. Um, and so he, I think in the book said, or maybe it was when he was on my podcast, he said, in terms of the community facilitator, look for the youngest person out there. [00:52:00] And so I, I really feel like that's what I did.
[00:52:03] Uh, you know, you're the wisest, youngest person I've met. And, and so I'm just really, yeah, happy to, to have you in the community and you bring this new perspective that I'm so interested in as well. For, uh, for, you know, the different business paradigm, the way we look at our relationship to work. So you, you bring all that as well.
[00:52:27] Um, and I think the age diversity is equally important. I mean that for, you know, older people, um, But also for younger people, it's nice to have someone from a more experienced generation and bring that perspective in. So I think that's another thing that we can pay attention to when building these attentional communities.
[00:52:51] Um, so yeah, please do share where people can find you. Um, is it Fiverr or do you have another place that's better? [00:53:00] 
[00:53:00] Eddy: No, well, I think that my main, the main ways to reach me is LinkedIn. Uh, Instagram, WhatsApp, and I also have a blog, but it is completely in Portuguese for now in medium. So I would say Instagram, WhatsApp, and LinkedIn are the best ways.
[00:53:20] Sarah: So we'll link to that in the show notes. 
[00:53:23] Eddy: And yeah, just to, uh, I, I, I felt about, I feel about mentioning another, another author who is, uh, Jeff Walker. Do you know Jeff Walker? It is like a big name on marketing on launching, right? He has the book, The Launching Formula. In his book, the Launching Formula, he talks about being rich without money, which is tapping into the, the people results, right?
[00:53:53] Right. So his energy is not into building financial [00:54:00] richness, but into building a strong, uh, relationship to people. Because then when he needs something, he knows he can rely on these people who already, who know him. who know what he does and et cetera. So when, even when we are talking about more, um, common marketing strategies, let's say even then, even there, uh, people are already talking about community and how we can shift from the perspective, uh, and how we can understand that.
[00:54:32] richness is not necessarily the money in your account. Uh, and it is very related to the relations that you have to people and the connections, the strength of the connections and the shared purpose that you have, uh, with the people around you. Oh, 
[00:54:48] Sarah: true. Yeah. I always have one last question that I ask every guest and that is, what are you grateful for today or this week?
[00:54:59] Eddy: I'm very, [00:55:00] very grateful for this conversation because it, it, it brings every, it, it gets everything so alive inside me, you know, it, it's something that, uh, that I love to talk about. I'm really passionate about this subject and about the work that I do with this as well. So in this very moment, I feel very grateful for having this, uh, this talk with you.
[00:55:26] Sarah: I'm grateful also that we're collaborating on this. So thanks, Eddie. 
[00:55:32] Eddy: Thank you. Thank you, Sarah.
[00:55:38] Sarah: I hope you got some great value and inspiration from listening to this episode. The best way to get more of Eddie is by joining our Humane Marketing Circle because he's there on every call. He's leading our net weaving calls and he's also facilitating our online community on Kajabi. So... Find out more [00:56:00] about the circle at humane.
[00:56:02] marketing forward slash circle. If you'd like to get in touch with Eddie for your own community, you'll find him on Instagram or LinkedIn. And the links are on the show notes page. You find the show notes of this episode at humane. marketing forward slash. H M 1 7 1. On this beautiful page, you'll also find a series of free offers, the humane business manifesto, and the free gentle confidence mini course, as well as my two books, marketing like we're human and selling like we're human.
[00:56:36] Thanks so much for listening and being part of a generation of marketers who cares for yourself, your clients, and the planet. We are change makers before we are marketers. So go be the change you want to see in the world. Transcription by CastingWords[00:57:00] 

In today's episode, we sat down with James, a Freelance Web and Graphic Designer based in Bedford, Bedfordshire, who brings a wealth of experience in creating websites for Coaches.

During our chat, we covered a lot of useful topics that can really help you level up your coaching website. We started by demystifying the differences between graphic and web design. Then, we dug into how to make sure your website truly reflects your coaching services and personal brand. James shared some great tips on planning out your website content effectively, and how to present your services in a way that resonates with your potential clients.

We also explored how your website can connect better with your ideal client and the strategies you can use to keep them engaged and interested. Ever wondered whether you can change your website once it's up? We talked about that too. Plus, James shed some light on the ongoing maintenance that websites might need, and what to look for when choosing a website host.

Whether you're a seasoned coach or just starting, this episode has something for you.

In this episode James and I discuss about:

• The difference between a graphic and web designer
• How a website represents your personal brand
• How to plan out my website content
• How to position my services on my site
• What strategies can I use to engage potential clients and encourage inquiries?
• Is a website a static thing or can it be changed once I get it back from the designer
• and much more

Ep 170 transcript

[00:00:00] Sarah: Hello, Humane Marketers. Welcome back to the Humane Marketing Podcast, the place to be for the generation of marketers that cares. This is a show where we talk about running your business in a way that feels good to you, is aligned with your values, and also resonates with today's conscious customers because it's humane, ethical, and non pushy.

[00:00:23] I'm Sarah Zanacroce, your hippie turned business coach for quietly rebellious entrepreneurs and marketing impact pioneers. Mama bear of the humane marketing circle and renegade author of marketing like we're human and selling like we're human. If after listening to the show for a while, you're ready to move on to the next level and start implementing and would welcome a community of like minded, quietly rebellious entrepreneurs who discuss with transparency what works and what doesn't work in business, then we'd love to welcome you in our humane marketing circle.

[00:00:58] If you're picturing your [00:01:00] typical Facebook group, let me paint a new picture for you. This is a closed community of like minded entrepreneurs from all over the world who come together once per month in a zoom circle workshop to hold each other accountable and build their business in a sustainable way.

[00:01:16] We share with transparency and vulnerability what works for us and what doesn't work so that you can figure out what works for you. Instead of keep throwing spaghetti on the wall and seeing what sticks. Find out more at humane. marketing. com And if you prefer one on one support from me, my Humane Business Coaching could be just what you need.

[00:01:40] Whether it's for your marketing, sales, general business building or help with your big idea like writing a book. A book. I'd love to share my brain and my heart with you together with my almost 15 years business experience and help you grow a sustainable business that is joyful and sustainable. If you love this [00:02:00] podcast, wait until I show you my mama bear qualities as my one-on-one client can find out more at Humane Marketing slash coaching.

[00:02:10] And finally, if you are a marketing impact pioneer and would like to bring humane marketing to your organization, have a look at my offers and workshops on my website at humane. marketing.

[00:02:29] Welcome back to the humane marketing podcast. Today's conversation fits under the P of Promotion. If you're a regular listener, you know that I'm organizing the conversations around the seven P's of the Humane Marketing Mandala. And if you're new here, then you probably don't know what I'm talking about with these seven P's and the mandala, but you can download your one page marketing plan with the Humane Marketing version of the seven P's of marketing at humane.

[00:02:58] marketing [00:03:00] forward slash one. page, the number one and the word page. And, uh, humane is with an E. So not human, but humane with an E at the end dot marketing. It comes with the seven email prompts to really help you reflect on these different Ps for your business. So humane marketing is not prescriptive.

[00:03:21] It's not a six. step approach. It's a reflective approach. It's, uh, where I ask you to question all your assumptions that you have about marketing. So that's what you get with the one page marketing plan for the seven piece of humane marketing. Today I'm speaking with a new friend, James Mall, who's a web and graphic designer.

[00:03:44] Uh, but before introducing you to James, I want to remind you that I'm talking to potential participants for the Marketing Like We're Human program, also known as the Client Resonator. This three month program is my main offering and it's connected [00:04:00] to this podcast and based on the seven Ps of the Humane Marketing Mandala because we'll dive deeply into these seven Ps during the program to help you discover your true self and passions so you can bring more of your.

[00:04:16] into your marketing. It's really about marketing from within, marketing authentically. It's also much more than marketing. It's really about business building. And I do bring in kind of this different. business paradigm. While the main goal is to connect with your ideal clients, it goes beyond marketing. It forms the foundation of your life's work.

[00:04:41] We'll start by focusing on things like passion and personal power, your why, and then move to other aspects like people, product, pricing, promotion, and partnerships. The program is in a small group setting, ensuring therefore a meaningful experience that aligns your business with your values. [00:05:00] It's a mix of videos, 20 to 30 minutes, uh, video per week.

[00:05:05] Uh, beautifully designed workbook with lots of questions. My program is for deep thinkers, those who want to really roll back the sleeves and think deeply about, um, how they want to market, how they want to run their business, journal prompts. And then of course the live group calls in which I facilitate the conversation to take us even deeper into the topic of the week, who's this program for?

[00:05:32] It's for entrepreneurs. Uh, who are quietly rebellious as well as change makers who have different levels of business experience, whether you've been in the game for one year, five years, or even 10 or more, it really is never too late to build a strong foundation for your business and your life's work.

[00:05:52] So. If you want to know more, check out humane. marketing forward slash program for lots [00:06:00] of testimonials and case studies from past participants. And if this program feels like it might be the right fit for you right now, let's talk. There's a button on that page to schedule a call with me. So, uh, yeah, please do that.

[00:06:15] We're starting on August 24th. All right. Thank you so much for letting me share about this. Now let's go back to today's podcast and back to James. So James is a freelance web and graphic designer based in Bedford. Bedford Shire, uh, that's the UK. And having worked with a variety, variety of clients, his portfolio includes fashion, swimwear, academics, coaches, property, charities, and photographers.

[00:06:47] He now specializes in building websites for business coaches, and he loves and believes in helping coaches to build a better web. experience for their clients and themselves. In our [00:07:00] conversation, we talked about the difference between a graphic and web designer. I think that's really key for, uh, clients to understand.

[00:07:09] How a website represents your personal brand, how to plan out. Your website content, how to position your services on your site, what strategies you can use to engage potential clients and encourage inquiries, uh, whether a website is static or whether it can be changed once you get it back from the designer and so many more topics.

[00:07:34] So let's dive in with, uh, James Moll. Hi, James. I'm so happy to hang out with you. Welcome to

[00:07:42] James: the show. Hi, Sarah. Thanks very much for having me. Thank you.

[00:07:47] Sarah: Yeah, I'm delighted to have this conversation about websites. So let's see all the different topics we could get into. Um, we tried to beforehand, right?

[00:07:57] Come up with some, some questions. [00:08:00] And so I do want to ask you one that you're like, Hey, maybe not this one, but I'm like, well, I'm going to ask you anyway, because, because actually, you know, in the bio that I just read about you, um, I did say you're a, uh, uh, web and graphic designer, right? So website designer, graphic designer.

[00:08:19] And, and I know that quite a lot of people sometimes get confused. Well, what is what, who does what? And so I'd like to start us off there so that you can kind of give us a good Um, distinction between what does a graphic designer do and what does a web designer do? And if I need a website, who do I look for

[00:08:44] James: then?

[00:08:45] Yeah, sure. Um, yeah, it's actually quite a good question, I think, for people that are not aware, obviously, the difference between a web and a graphic designer. Being in the industry, um, a lot of people are aware. So, so a graphic designer is someone [00:09:00] that designs, uh, graphics. It could either be print based or digital based.

[00:09:04] So it can either be. Uh, brochures, leaflets, um, billboards, um, and they could do digital design as well. So they could design adverts on social media. Um, there is crossover between that and websites. So they can design graphics that specifically go on websites as well. So they can sit on a, on a, um, a website, but how they differ from a web designer is that they're not techie.

[00:09:29] So they're not able to, most graphic designers are not able to develop, uh, and build websites. So web designer is. actually more technical in terms of they're able to either code, uh, build a website with code, HTML, um, WordPress, um, software like that, or they can, uh, use no code software as well, which I, I worked with as well.

[00:09:52] So I worked with a program called elemental along with WordPress. So I'm able to kind of use drag and drop software. Um, some like I've come, I'm [00:10:00] coming from a graphic design background to a website background. So there is some crossover, um, but generally. Graphic designers tend to design, um, the graphics either for print or digital.

[00:10:13] Um, and they don't really tend to do websites. So they differ in that instance. I hope that kind of clears

[00:10:20] Sarah: up things. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And I guess. A graphic designer can learn to be a web designer and then be both, which is your case. And a web designer can also, or that's a question, do web designers sometimes also go into graphic design?

[00:10:40] Or maybe that direction is less common. What would you say?

[00:10:45] James: Um, I've actually met quite a few people that have gone both. So from like myself on graphic design into website design, and then vice versa, website design to graphic design. And I think it just [00:11:00] matters on your technical ability and what you enjoy.

[00:11:04] If you enjoy graphic design, if you enjoy sort of creating. You know, anything from logos to branding, you know, brochures, um, graphic design is so wide as well. Um, and then it easily crosses over onto, um, website design. Um, it's kind of similar to coaching in a way, I guess, because a lot of sort of business coaches, for example, that I work with tend to do, you know, personal coaching as well, life coaching, um, and vice versa.

[00:11:36] So there's some crossover there as well. So, um. Yeah, they can be cross over as well.

[00:11:41] Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. In my, um, sense of understanding this is the graphic design has to do with the beauty. It has to do with the aesthetics, with the art, with the colors, with the logo, uh, you know, with the, yeah, the word says it graphic, right?

[00:11:58] And so [00:12:00] the web designer would be probably more, um, oriented towards the functionality of the site. Uh, of the website. So being like, you know, all of these click funnels and lead generation things that, that is more tech related. So, uh, in a way, I guess it's a good idea to look for someone who has an understanding of both.

[00:12:24] Because then you get an aesthetically good looking website that also has the functionality behind

[00:12:30] James: it. Right. Yeah, that's right. And that's why people like to hire me. Yeah. Because, uh, yeah, because I'm able to do, to do both. And, um, you know, from a UX and UI point of view, I'm able to kind of wireframe, uh, create like a blueprint and a map of, uh, the user experience as well, which is quite key.

[00:12:51] I think a lot of web designers. Don't tend to think of that as well. Um, so it's not just making sure the website looks pretty, but also the [00:13:00] fact that you're thinking about calls to action, you know, your call to action buttons, getting people to book discovery calls or sign up to your mailing list. Or,

[00:13:09] Sarah: yeah, so let's get in all of that because there's a lot to, to uncover.

[00:13:13] So, so basically, yeah, we now know that there's both, right. There's the aesthetics and then there's the actual user friendliness and the. The functionality behind the site. So, so maybe before we go into the functionality, like what I, this is embarrassing, but like more than 15 years ago when I started out, I actually also designed some small websites for, for clients, you know, WordPress was like really new back then.

[00:13:43] And so I quickly noticed how difficult of a job it actually is. Not so much big because of, you know, I was using WordPress. So it's pretty simple to put a website together, but where I always got stuck is with the [00:14:00] clients and their content, like the, the, the design of the site and their actual understanding of what needs to go on a site.

[00:14:09] So I think that's also why there's. A lot of people, I don't know if that happens to you, but I know it happens to me that come with baggage and they complain about their website designer. They're like, it just didn't work out. Uh, and oftentimes it's because there is a miscommunication of who does what and in what kind of timeframe.

[00:14:31] And so how can we help or, or, uh, to which level do we as the client have to be prepared? Uh, when we go to a website designer in terms of our content, in terms of knowing what needs to go on this website.

[00:14:50] James: Yeah, so the content is, um, is a key thing in any website. And before, when I kind of started out, I used to kind of [00:15:00] rely on the client giving me the content and it doesn't always work out because what you've, you know, you designed a website and you put everything together and you made it look nice and you've put stock images there and you've put some.

[00:15:12] Laura Ibsen text to kind of fill the gaps and you create a nice looking website and then the client either They do two things that either hand you Very little content. So there's hardly any text or any writing that they've put together themselves Or they can either give you too much Content so there's a lot to kind of pick pick out and put on the website And the information is is key because the information is what's gonna Sell your services.

[00:15:40] So it's it's one of the most important things On a website and before when I started out, I used to always think about the design side and coming from a graphic design point of view as well. I used to always think about looking at making the website look pretty and probably less on the content, but as I've developed as a web designer and working with with coaches.

[00:15:57] Now, I realized that, you know, [00:16:00] part of what we do is working with the coaches and having copywriters on board to help them create. Copy that is great to go on the website. Um, and that, you know, it's talking about their target clients, um, addresses, um, their pain points, um, and sells their services in a way that, um, reflects them, uh, in a, in a positive light, really.

[00:16:25] Yeah. Yeah.

[00:16:26] Sarah: Yeah. So, so you see the same thing is like, it can really be a, this idea. Oh, I need a website. But then once they talk to you or talk to any website designer, then they tell them, well, have you thought about, you know, who's your ideal client? How are you going to describe it? So it's like, it's this basically box of worms that all of a sudden gets.

[00:16:52] you know, discover is like, Oh, I thought that was going to be quick and easy. And then I have, you know, all these other things that I now [00:17:00] need to look at and write about.

[00:17:01] James: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, the planning stages is key with any website. Um, you know, sometimes clients will come to you and I used to have this a lot when I was starting out, you know, they'll say we need a website done in a week or two weeks or, you know, unrealistic deadlines and they're kind of rushing and they've got.

[00:17:19] content ready and they're trying to create a website and they think that, you know, you can very easily create a website, you know, in a matter of a few days or a week and you can, but you know, it's like with anything, it's good to sit down and plan out, you know, the user experience, uh, wireframe and on paper, just, just even sketch out what, what kind of number of pages, the menu structure, uh, the calls to action, uh, what kind of information you're going to have, testimonials, um, All of that kind of stuff, social proof, um, and then layout, what kind of, what goes where, and think about that and spend time thinking about that [00:18:00] before you've done any kind of development or design.

[00:18:03] That is a, is a must, I think now working with clients because we spend, we spend a good couple of weeks actually just, just on that. Um, when I work with clients now, uh, before we do any development work.

[00:18:16] Sarah: Right. So take us into this user experience because you mentioned it a few times now. So, so what does that mean?

[00:18:24] Take me on this journey. So let's say, you know, I'm landing on a website for the first time. Uh, I'm on the homepage. What needs to happen next? So take me through that journey.

[00:18:39] James: Yeah, so when you're, when you've landed on a, um, homepage, for example, which is a, um, land, another word for landing page as well. So a landing page could be any page really on the website.

[00:18:49] It's the first page that you're directed to. And often that is the homepage. But often you'll see a homepage and you'll see, you know, you've got the menu at the top. You've got your, um. [00:19:00] Items below it. So you would have like a hero image and you would have welcome to the website or whatever the company or person does on the website.

[00:19:09] And then you'd have, you know, testimonials below it and you would have services, uh, what the coach does, for example, calls to action. Um, but it's. really mapping out clearly what goes where in terms of the information. So you want to be, for example, you don't want to be telling people about you necessarily what you do and how great you are.

[00:19:33] You want to be talking about how you're helping them with their, with their problem, this problem solution. And you'll, you know, you, you've got a list of. your ideal client, you know, what kind of issues they're going through. Uh, for example, if they've, um, if you're in a corporate kind of coach, um, that's helping people that are coming out of corporate, the corporate environment, you want to say that, you know, uh, here's a, [00:20:00] this is what I do.

[00:20:01] You know, are you coming out of a corporate job? Are you looking to start your own business getting into coaching, for example, and As soon as they see that at the top, you know, they know that this site is for them because people would immediately turn off in the first, you know, couple of three to five seconds.

[00:20:18] If they don't see any benefit in, in, um, in the website and they'll just click, click off. So you have a high bounce rate as well.

[00:20:27] Sarah: Yeah. It's actually in what we're just talking about this today in the humane marketing circle is the unique value proposition. You know, what it is you are offering To me, as the visitor to your website, how is it different from anybody else's offer?

[00:20:44] And, uh, yeah, do I feel concerned? Like, yeah, do you speak to me or, you know? Yeah. Instead, do you just speak about yourself? And then I have to figure out if you're actually the right [00:21:00] fit for me. Um,

[00:21:01] James: yeah, yeah. I think a lot of people make that mistake because. They want to say, you know, how great they are, you know, how many qualifications they've got, certifications, um, testimonials.

[00:21:12] They want to, you know, literally tell the whole world about how great they are, but they forget about the client that they kind of helping. And what their problems are and really speaking to the client, you know, everything that you should be doing should be speaking towards your ideal client. And again, that's tied into the marketing side of things that you're aware of.

[00:21:33] And a lot of web designers or graphic designers don't tend to think about that because it's a shame because a lot of web design and graphic design is quite separate from marketing. So coming from a background of both, I'm able to kind of use have both sides and think. You know, from a customer user point of view and think from a technical point of view, uh, and also from a design and colorful and making [00:22:00] everything look pretty kind of point of view as well.

[00:22:02] So that it's a problem that I think we have in the industry where. In the whole kind of design industry where there's a miscommunication often between the marketing message and what you're trying to portray on an advertisement or a website. Um, there could be a misalignment there. Yeah.

[00:22:24] Sarah: Yeah, I totally agree.

[00:22:25] I think that the, you know, it's often a case in corporations as well, where they separate marketing from sales and, and here it's the same marketing should be part of it because that's essentially what you're doing with your website. You're not wanting to talk to yourself. You're wanting to talk to your ideal clients and everything you just said about the homepage.

[00:22:48] I learned it's the same thing about on your about page, uh, on your about page, of course we think, Oh, it's about me. And yes, it is, but only in a second instance, it really [00:23:00] is again. Uh, people come to your about page because they want to find out if you're a good match for them. So they're really looking at the about page as a mirror much more than, you know, I'm so interested in this person that they don't know yet.

[00:23:15] Right. And so it's kind of like just more like a checklist. Okay. Yes. This aligns this lines. Uh, and so it's the same thing for the about page. Um, so talk to us a bit more about the, uh, engagement. So. You know, it could be perceived that a website is a static thing because, you know, it just sits there. So how do we make it engaging, um, that actually people stay on it, first of all, you know, read our information and then maybe even go a step further.

[00:23:50] How do we get them to stay in touch?

[00:23:53] James: Yeah, I mean, One of the key things is not to put all of the [00:24:00] information out there in terms of content. So if you want to create engagement, for example, um, FAQs are a good example of this. So you don't want to frequently ask questions that you have. You don't want to sort of list them all out on the website.

[00:24:14] You want to have options where people can click on a, on a question and they have a drop down and it tells them a little bit more about it. So anything that kind of people can interact with and engage with buttons that lead them on to another page, for example, that tells them a little bit more information.

[00:24:31] So if you've got like a book, for example, that you're selling and you said, you know, do you want to buy this book right now? And then you clicked on the book and it just went to the purchase page. And it was just like. selling you the book, you know, from a buying point of view, it's not a great sales experience because you're not really giving them any more information about the book that they're buying.

[00:24:51] So you want to create, um, almost like a sales funnel where you're, they click on, uh, to find out more about the book that you're selling, for example, [00:25:00] uh, how it can benefit them. Um, maybe give them like a free sample or demo, uh, That they can download like a PDF and then an option afterwards to then click and purchase.

[00:25:14] So it's very much thinking about that user again, thinking about the user journey and experience rather than, you know, people are so desperate to kind of, you know, sell stuff, for example, or book a discovery call. And it's very much that you've got to kind of educate people. You've got to create that. Um, That trust, you've got to build that up, I think.

[00:25:33] And you can't just rush into it. It's, it's, it's again, it's like us talking for example, now, and if we were at like a networking event and we met for the first time, for example, when you often meet people at networking events and, you know, they're just telling you how great they are and they're just like, do you want to buy my stuff?

[00:25:47] Do you want to have a, let's book a call. Let's let's talk by my stuff. It's all me, me, me. And they don't really kind of create that opportunity where they, you know, you, you kind of. Meet them or add them on online or, um, go [00:26:00] to the website, find out a little bit more about them. And then a little bit later on, in the, in the kind of buying decision, you kind of decide that you want to work with them, um, rather than sort of rushing in.

[00:26:13] It's kind of people kind of rush in. Um,

[00:26:15] Sarah: yeah. Tell us how this would apply to the discovery call, because I like that a lot. So, so, um, and, and I'll share what I have in place, but yeah, I'd love to hear from you. Like, Okay. So I get it for the book. Yeah. How would you apply it to a discovery call?

[00:26:34] James: So for a discovery call, for instance, you will, um, you've also got call to action on the site.

[00:26:40] So I've got call to action. If people do want to book a discovery call straight away and they can click, you know, book a discovery call. So that's for people that have already made their decision. Um, so they've looked at your website, they've seen your homepage senior about page. Um, What you offer us is, you know, problem solution.

[00:26:58] You can [00:27:00] help them with their, um, what their, whatever their problems are, issues are, and they've already made the decision to work with you. And they, you know, just click book a discovery call. So they're those kind of people are, um, sort of warm leads and they kind of, they're in that sort of. Uh, they want to buy from you and they want to buy what you're, what you, what you've got, but people that are, um, maybe need to be a bit more educated, for example, um, you'd kind of maybe I've got a few landing pages, for example, um, I've created for coaches where they could find out a bit more about me.

[00:27:36] Uh, about what I do, the kind of clients that I work with. So it's kind of testimonials, social proof, um, talking through people, through, through the discovery process that I go through with clients. Um, and then they can, from there, they can decide to book a call at the end. So they can scroll right down to the bottom and then they can decide to book a call.

[00:27:59] So those kinds of [00:28:00] people need, um, probably a bit more. educating and kind of getting to know you. Um, it just depends. I think if people are coming from online and if they've never met you before, then they're going to need a bit to know a bit more about you and probably add you on social media as well.

[00:28:13] Follow you on, on LinkedIn and Facebook and Instagram, um, for, you know, at least a couple of months or, or, or whatever time period. And before they start working with you, uh, people that you've already met from online or networking or face to face networking, and they kind of know you and aware. The problems and solutions that you kind of solve.

[00:28:36] Um, they're a little bit of more of a warmer lead. So they, they can, they just want to book a discovery call and they just want to talk to you. Right. Yeah.

[00:28:44] Sarah: I would say the quality then also of this discovery, discovery call is, is very different. Um, if Someone comes to your site for the very first time and then just books a discovery call to me, those are often the clients [00:29:00] who just want to discover about, you know, website design.

[00:29:04] Uh, so it's not like they are necessarily already. Um, on the gentle sales paths, like I call it that, that they don't know about you. They're not buying into you yet. They're just buying, they just need a website. Right. And it's like, Oh, this is one of them. Okay. Let me book a call. And then you're basically spending your whole time on this call, educating them, uh, instead of actually them, them educating themselves on their own time.

[00:29:33] That's how I look at it. I'm like, well, I have all these things on my website. Spend some time there, you know, listen to the podcast, read the books, whatever, you know. There's a lot of information there. And then let's get on a call because otherwise, what often happens is we can spend our days on these discovery calls and then kind of end up being frustrated because, you know, people are just not there yet in [00:30:00] terms of where they are in their, um, sales decision.

[00:30:04] Uh, and so that's, that's why often people who come to me and say, you know, I'm not closing. I'm like, well, you know, what do you have on your, I call them signposts. What do you have on your gentle sales path? Like your, um, like your templates that you're going to share with us for the landing page, right?

[00:30:23] It's education like that, that then also leads to a better quality, uh, sales call. So, so yeah, I totally see that. Um, I also have an intake form. Where I didn't actually ask, you know, have you read, uh, my blog posts? Have you listened to the, so that I also come to this conversation knowing where they're at, because there's nothing worse than to be on a sales call and feel like being sold to, and, you know, and then.

[00:30:52] After I do all this talking, they're like, actually, you know, I just want to talk to you and see how we can get started. [00:31:00] And so it's really good to pick them up

[00:31:01] James: where they're at, right? Yeah. And also you don't want to be in that position of convincing them kind of thing as well. I think in my earlier days, I would often have to convince clients because, um, before I kind of niche down and work with.

[00:31:16] Coaches and consultants and mentors and, you know, speakers and authors. Um, I used to work with quite a large variety of clients and I didn't really niche down in anything, so I didn't specialize in anything. So, um, I was seen more as a commodity. So, um, you know, it was all about price and it was all very much, um.

[00:31:38] Yeah, fix it on price. So I'm kind of like, I lost track of where we were. Right. Checking around. Where were we? Sorry. Yeah,

[00:31:46] Sarah: it's so important. Um, yeah. Any, any other things about the, you know, engagement and, and how to get more inquiries? Cause I think that's something that, you know, people [00:32:00] are really. Yeah, wanting to know more about, like, which part is content related and which part then is, like, we didn't talk about newsletter signups, right?

[00:32:11] What are some mistakes you, you see there that, um, on websites related to that?

[00:32:18] James: Um, I think a lot of times I think people have a newsletter signup and they don't really know what it is or, um, they don't really have a newsletter in place. So I think one of the key things is to have a just a mailing list.

[00:32:34] Or a newsletter in place and tell people like, I've got one that's coming soon at the moment. So I'm just taking emails at the moment. So I actually don't have a newsletter at the moment. But a lot of the times people are just having a newsletter for the sake of having a newsletter. And I think you could have some sort of strategy behind it and know, because it is another way of bringing in leads.

[00:32:54] Um, but it's not going to be straight away. Like, it's not going to be a, like, So today, tomorrow or next [00:33:00] week, you know, you you're still educating people about what you do. And it's again, it's the same with a blog on your website, you know, people come back and they will read your blog newsletters. So people are aware of, you know, your services, what you're offering, and they can see you on social media as well.

[00:33:19] And if they've signed up to your newsletter, for example, as well, they see you quite active. So the more you're kind of, they're aware of what you do and who you are as a person, um, they, they have you in mind. So even if it's not for them, um, they will have you in mind for someone else. So as long as you're like that person that they think of when they think about sort of, um, You know, humane marketing, for example, um, and, uh, me being a web design consultant, working with coaches, um, you know, want to be like the first person that they think of.

[00:33:55] So you want to have that, the newsletters were part of that sort of, that sort of [00:34:00] marketing strategy. Um, I think people don't often look at that hand in hand, like together, they just sit kind of separate. Um, but Anything that you do, if it's even if it's, you know, social media posts, um, uh, newsletters or blogging, you should always have like an end goal when you should always think about it from what, you know, what benefit are you giving to your clients?

[00:34:27] Um, and it shouldn't really be just, you know, bragging about how great you are again with the website. A lot of times, you know, people are bragging about what qualifications or what things they're getting up to and what they're doing. As opposed to, um, how they're benefiting their clients and what kind of problems they can solve them for their clients.

[00:34:44] Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. So let's say, okay, we have designed this, this website, we have the content, uh, everything is in place. And then, I'm sure you're used to that, the client's like, Oh, I need to change, [00:35:00] you know, this copy again and, and, and this and that. When, when do you hand the site over and is there, you know, can we still change it?

[00:35:11] I think that's probably a question that people wonder is like, okay, uh, I've heard of WordPress, uh, you know, how easy is it to then change the site

[00:35:21] James: myself? Yeah, so it depends. I mean, if the client either wants content or design changes, um, I have a, um, maintenance, uh, package that I offer clients that for the upkeep of the site and, uh, updates as well.

[00:35:41] Um, so that could be an ad hoc kind of basis, um, or, or they could, yeah, pay as and when they need it. Um, but ideally, um, I also do videos as well. So I do a video to show clients how to edit the [00:36:00] site themselves. So they've got like that on their dashboard, um, how to upload images and text and change all that stuff.

[00:36:06] But it just depends on the client. If they're You know, it's like a lot of coaches are too busy, so they don't have time to update their site themselves. So they either fall into two categories, the one that, you know, they do have time and they would like to do it themselves, or they're too busy and they don't, they would like you to do it.

[00:36:23] So it depends on, on the, on the, um. So basically

[00:36:27] Sarah: it can be changed, it just needs time. Yeah, yeah. Or you can do it for them and, and well, it takes money. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's always that equation.

[00:36:38] James: But it should always be changed. I mean, I would do recommend for, you know, keeping a site regularly up to date, um, helps with your SEO, um, search engine optimization.

[00:36:48] Um, you know, Google likes it when you've got up to date blogs and content on there. So a lot of times people will design a website, have it designed, and they [00:37:00] will just get excited and launch the website and make a lot buzz around it. And then within a few months or a year down the line, they've done nothing with the website.

[00:37:10] So they've not added to the website and there's nothing new on their website. So from a search point of view, it gets ranked lower. Um, so the more engagement you've got on site, the more, um, people that are clicking on the site. So you want to constantly be putting content on the site and advertising on social media, for example, and plugging the site as much as possible.

[00:37:33] Um, but it should always be Up to date in terms of content as much as possible. Um, but yeah, again, it's an, it's an additional charge. So once the site has been done and handed over to you, it's, um, it's an additional charge, it's kind of like. Decorating, for example, if this room that we're in, for example, if, you know, it's painted white, but if you wanted to paint it, you know, yellow or whatever, you know, there'll be an additional charge to purchase paint and do repaint the [00:38:00] whole room.

[00:38:00] And then again, you want to pay it like orange or something or purple in a year's time. It's again, it can be done, but it's an additional. It's going to cost more time and money to kind of do that. Yeah, of course.

[00:38:12] Sarah: So you mentioned, um, maintenance to me, there's two different things. There's maintenance, uh, which is kind of like updating the plugins and making sure it's the last, uh, and most recent WordPress, uh, addition, things like that.

[00:38:28] Um, Or, you know, even backups and then there's updates, which is content updates or even design updates. So they're separate things like so like how much maintenance so purely functionality oriented maintenance does a website take once it's.

[00:38:51] James: Yeah. So once a website is published, um, no matter what kind of software you're using, I mean, I build websites using WordPress.

[00:38:59] Um, [00:39:00] if you could be using Wix or, or another software, for example, um, but it may certainly needs to be maintained in terms of security, uh, any kind of bugs that can happen on a site. Um, so it needs to be all anything plugin related that you've got any software that you use to kind of build, for example, if you've got, um, Um, I'm trying to think now, uh, scheduling software, any kind of, uh, appointment booking software, any additional plugins that are required.

[00:39:29] If you've got Google, for example, or you've got Google site kit on there, uh, you've got Yoast SEO, um, on there. So you've got all these kind of different plugins, um, on there. They need to be kind of up to date and maintained. Um, otherwise they can kind of break the site as well. So if you've, uh, not updated a site after a while, if it runs into any kind of conflicts with plugin, um, Um, different plugins.

[00:39:51] It can actually break the whole site. Uh, so you've got that as one issue. And then also you've got potential any, any site is vulnerable, [00:40:00] uh, online is vulnerable to being hacked as well. So, uh, twice to me

[00:40:04] Sarah: already. So yeah. Yeah. So it's not like this. Thing that never happens. It

[00:40:07] James: doesn't happen. Yeah. Yeah. So again, um, software in terms of security wise, um, needs to be monitored, monitored.

[00:40:15] Um, so there's all that kind of stuff to kind of think about. And that's the more kind of techie kind of stuff. And that's the stuff that A lot of people don't like to kind of think about, but it's very important because obviously in terms of the longevity of the site, it's not nice to have a site that's being, being hacked.

[00:40:32] Um, you know, so, um, it's always good to kind of, it's almost like insurance is always good to kind of just pay the extra to, to, to, to have someone do it. Or at least invest the time, you know, you could watch YouTube videos and learn how to do it yourself. But again, it depends if you want to spend the hassle time kind of learning that as well.

[00:40:53] But it's the, it's

[00:40:55] Sarah: the hassle of learning it, but it's also then the hassle of finding somebody who's [00:41:00] gonna fix your hacked site, right? Yeah. Where if you have kind of put aside some, uh, some for maintenance. Then that person somehow becomes responsible as well of, uh, having to fix the site or at least you'll come up with a fair price where if you just come to a new person and say, Hey, please, can you fix my site?

[00:41:23] It's been completely hacked. They're going to charge you quite a bit to do that.

[00:41:29] James: Yeah, yeah. Again, obviously with the backups, um, you know, all our sites are backed up. Um, content and design is backed up regularly. So if there is a problem, we can get back to a backup. Um, uh, so it's quite easily, uh, again, a lot of people don't back up their site.

[00:41:49] So a lot of people, um, Sort of presume that's really done. And I've seen it in the past with clients that come to me and they've had cheap hosting in the past where they said, you know, they can get hosting for [00:42:00] like, I don't know, like 499, 599 or 10 pound, 10 or whatever it is a month or whatever it is.

[00:42:07] And they think they're really happy with the hosting, but then they don't realize the fact that there is no added security or backups in place. And when something does go wrong, they All their content, everything is lost on the site again as well. And if you've got no backup of that all, um, you've got, for example, your blogs, if they're written in sort of Word documents and you've got them stored on, on your computer, it's good, you know, that's another backup.

[00:42:34] Um, but again, you've got to go for the hassle of. You know, republishing everything, republishing everything and that sort of thing. So it's very, that's a hassle as well, you know.

[00:42:44] Sarah: Yeah, yeah. All right. We want to end in a positive note, not in a, Oh my God, it's so scary out there. Um, yeah, just like everything.

[00:42:55] Yes, everything can happen. It's, it's online and, and, and there is. That, [00:43:00] um, kind of tech stuff that, that happens. So, um, but yeah, like I said, let's, let's not end in a, in a negative note. Um, do you have a template that, um, you're sharing with our listeners? So. Why don't you tell us a little bit of what that is and where people can find

[00:43:19] James: it?

[00:43:20] Yeah, sure. Um, so I'll provide a link. Um, it's called the two week landing page challenge for coaches. So it's, um, a lot of people, a lot of clients just come to me that used to have, you know, trouble creating a landing page. And, um, I realized that I didn't really have. You know, if it's stuck in my mind and I like kind of can do it, but I don't realize that all this information was out there.

[00:43:44] So I put it create like a template for people to kind of for coaches to download and very easily kind of put together. So, um, I'll provide the link for that. But yeah, it's just anyone else kind of. in the coaching space that needs to create a landing page to [00:44:00] sell a book that they're providing or um, a call to action, um, book a discovery call or any kinds of call to actions that they really just want to that specific key rather than providing it on the entire website.

[00:44:12] They just want to specifically one pager, one pager. So it's a template that people can freely download. Um, and again, if you did want to book a discovery call with me and if you needed any help, I'm available to, um, help you out with any questions as well.

[00:44:27] Sarah: Wonderful. Yeah. Thanks. We'll make sure we, we link to that.

[00:44:31] And, um, yeah, your website is also in the, in the, um, in the text, uh, jamesmall. co. uk. Right. Uh, where are you most hanging out?

[00:44:42] James: Sorry. And it's forward slash coaches to go on the actual coaching landing page.

[00:44:46] Sarah: Okay. Great. And you're mainly on which social media platforms? So I'm

[00:44:52] James: quite active on LinkedIn.

[00:44:53] LinkedIn is probably the most best place. It's the best place to kind of connect with me and find out more about me and um, [00:45:00] just DM me and I'm always happy to talk. So.

[00:45:02] Sarah: Wonderful. I always have one last question that is, what are you grateful for today or this week?

[00:45:10] James: What am I grateful for today? Um, I suppose I'm grateful for feeling a lot better and being able to eat normal food again.

[00:45:19] Uh, cause I've had a ongoing, I've had an ongoing chest infection for the last couple of months. So yeah, I did kind of stop working for a little while and I couldn't eat some foods. Um, so I'm, I'm glad that I got my energy back and, you know, I'm able to kind of, I'm out of breath and I'm able to enjoy food.

[00:45:38] Um,

[00:45:39] Sarah: which is a big deal. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We don't realize it until we don't have it anymore.

[00:45:44] James: Right. Yeah. Yeah. And I'm actually going to a Retreat this weekend, helping my friend up, um, we were talking about it earlier. Um, so I'm going to be helping them out in the kitchen and there's going to be yoga and meditation and sound therapy there.

[00:45:58] So yeah, I'm grateful [00:46:00] for being able to kind of take part in that as well. So, um, delightful. So yeah, I'm grateful.

[00:46:06] Sarah: Thank you. Awesome. Well, thanks so much for coming on to the show. Really enjoyed this conversation. Thanks, James. Thank you for inviting me. Thank you very much. Thank you. I hope you got some great value from listening to this episode, especially if you're new to business and are needing to build your website.

[00:46:26] You can find out more about James at jamesmall. co. uk. And as he mentioned, James also has a gift for us. It's a coach's landing page template, uh, which you can get at jamesmall. co. uk forward slash humane marketing. Uh, this is also a page where you'll find the two week challenge that, uh, James mentioned when he was speaking, James mainly hangs out on LinkedIn.

[00:46:57] So make sure to send them a message [00:47:00] there, connect with him and tell him that you listened. And if you're looking for others who think like you, then why not join us in the Humane Marketing Circle? You can find out more at humane. marketing. com You find the show notes of this episode at humane. marketing.

[00:47:21] com 1 7 1, sorry, 1 7 0. And on this beautiful page, you'll also find a series of free offers, uh, such as the Humane Business Manifesto, the free Gentle Confidence mini course, as well as my two books, Marketing Like We're Human and Selling Like We're Human. Thanks so much for listening and being part of a generation of marketers who cares for yourself, your clients, and the planet.

[00:47:51] We are change makers before we are marketers. So go be the change you want to see in the world. Speak soon.[00:48:00]

In today's episode, we delve into the vital "P of Pricing" as we sit down with Patty Block – a business advisor, pricing expert, author, and empowering speaker.

In our conversation, we explore the intriguing relationship between broken cookies and our limiting beliefs with pricing, the challenge of being affordable for everyone while avoiding burnout, and effective techniques to communicate the true value of our services before raising prices. We also dive into strategies for determining fair pricing, tackling the "Good Girl's Dilemma," and letting go of patterns that don't serve us.

Get ready to be inspired!

In this episode Patty and I discuss about:

• The relationship between broken cookies and our limiting beliefs with pricing
• The challenge of wanting to be affordable for everyone – and burning out while doing so
• Effective techniques to communicate our value and why we need to do that before raising our prices
• How to get started when you're determining your prices
• and much more

[00:00:00] Sarah: Hello, Humane Marketers. Welcome back to the Humane Marketing Podcast, the place to be for the generation of marketers that cares. This is a show where we talk about running your business in a way that feels good to you, is aligned with your values, and also resonates with today's conscious customers because it's humane, ethical, and non pushy.

[00:00:23] I'm Sarah Zanacroce, your hippie turned business coach for quietly rebellious entrepreneurs and marketing impact pioneers. Mama bear of the humane marketing circle and renegade author of marketing like we're human and selling like we're human. If after listening to the show for a while, you're ready to move on to the next level and start implementing and would welcome a community of like minded, quietly rebellious entrepreneurs who discuss with transparency what Works and what doesn't work in business.

[00:00:54] Then we'd love to welcome you in our humane marketing circle. If you're picturing your [00:01:00] typical Facebook group, let me paint a new picture for you. This is a closed community of like minded entrepreneurs from all over the world who come together once per month in a zoom circle workshop to hold each other accountable and build their business in a sustainable way.

[00:01:16] We share with transparency and vulnerability. What works for us. And what doesn't work, so that you can figure out what works for you, instead of keep throwing spaghetti on the wall and seeing what sticks. Find out more at humane. marketing forward slash circle. And if you prefer one on one support from me, my Humane Business Coaching could be just what you need.

[00:01:40] Whether it's for your marketing, sales, general business building, or help with your big idea like writing a book, I'd love to share my brain and my heart with you, together with my almost 50… Years business experience and help you grow a sustainable business that is joyful and sustainable. If you love this [00:02:00] podcast, wait until I show you my Mama Bear qualities as my one-on-one client.

[00:02:05] You can find out more at humane.marketing/coaching. And finally, if you are a Marketing Impact pioneer and would like to bring Humane Marketing to your organization, have a look at my offers and workshops on my website at Humane.

[00:02:29] Hello, welcome back to the Humane Marketing Podcast. I'm so delighted that you're here. I'm back in Switzerland after three weeks of really, really hot weather in Sicily. And I'm recording this and it's raining outside and there's a thunderstorm. So it's quite refreshing. I'm speaking today with Patti Block.

[00:02:53] And before I tell you a bit more about Patti. I'd like to remind you that I'm currently talking to potential [00:03:00] participants of the Marketing Like We're Human, also known as the Client Resonator Program. This is my flagship three month program, closely aligned with my podcast, and based on the same framework, the seven Ps of humane marketing.

[00:03:16] The program involves a deep exploration of these seven P's to help you uncover your true identity and passion and really enabling you to infuse more of you, more of your authentic self into your marketing. Essentially it's about marketing from within. While the outcome is the resonance with your ideal clients, the program goes way beyond just marketing.

[00:03:44] It serves as the foundation for your life's work. We begin by focusing on the inner aspects, such as passion and personal power, and then move to the outer elements, people, product, pricing, promotion, and partnership with [00:04:00] others. The program takes place in an intimate group setting. Ensuring a deep and transformative experience, resulting then in the business that truly aligns with your values.

[00:04:13] The program is a hybrid model, so consisting of 20 to 30 minute video to watch each week. Uh, these are based on my teachings, but also on my own experience that I share with vulnerability. Cause I feel like if I show up with vulnerability, then that's kind of sets the stage for our group conversations.

[00:04:35] And that's why these group conversations are so in depth and, uh, vulnerable and transformative. So who's the program for? It's for quietly rebellious entrepreneurs with varying levels of business experience. So whether you have one year, five years or. Even 10 years under your belt, it's never too late to create a solid foundation for your business [00:05:00] and more importantly, to create your life's work.

[00:05:02] So by doing so, you'll be able to market authentically as the person you truly are. If you're interested in learning more or have already visited the page, but need to go back, I invite you to go to humane. marketing forward slash program, where you'll find different testimonials and detailed case studies from past participants.

[00:05:25] If you think that this program might be your right next step and a good fit for you and your business, let's talk. You can book a call with me by going to humane. marketing forward slash program and there you'll find a button to book a call or you can send me an email if you're on my email list. Also, what I forgot to mention until July 31st, I have an early bird.

[00:05:49] Discount of 200 off. So please do mention that to me. And I will of course, apply it as long as you book our [00:06:00] call before July 31st. It's okay if we speak after, but at least have it booked before July 31st and mentioned the discount code. There's no code just mentioned the early bird. Thank you so much.

[00:06:14] Okay. Back to the P of pricing and today's episode, Patty Block is a business advisor, pricing expert, author, and speaker. She works exclusively with women business owner experts to strategically fine tune their operations, attract right fit clients, and boost their revenue. She firmly believes business success and wealth in the hands of women elevates society as a whole.

[00:06:42] And I agree, but not just women. There's There's good guys out there as well in her book, your hidden advantage, unlock the power to attract the right fit clients and boost your revenue. Patty reveals a new perspective and proven practical solutions, guiding women to [00:07:00] unleash their. Inner power to run their business with more confidence, profit, and joy.

[00:07:05] In this episode with Patty, we discussed the relationship between broken cookies and our limiting beliefs with pricing. You're going to have to listen to find out about the broken cookies, the challenge of wanting to be affordable for everyone and burning out while doing so. Effective techniques to communicate our value and why we need to do that before raising our prices.

[00:07:32] How to get started when you're determining your prices and so much more. So let's listen to this conversation about pricing with Patti Block. Hi, Patti. I'm so looking forward to our conversation today about pricing. Welcome to the Humane Marketing Show.

[00:07:50] Patty: Thank you. And thank you for inviting me.

[00:07:52] Sarah: Yeah, I'm so delighted.

[00:07:54] I'm, I want to give a shout out to Sophie Leshner, who's, uh, introduced us and, and [00:08:00] I couldn't be more happy with, um, you know, having this introduction because I have to admit, like in terms of pricing, um, especially aligned with our values and humane marketing, it's not always. Easy to find the right experts, but when I came across your work, I'm like, oh, yes, definitely very much aligned.

[00:08:22] So, um, yeah, super delighted to have you here. I think I want to start off with, uh, one of the stories you tell on your website. And I think I heard you talk about it on another podcast as well. And it has to do with cookies. So it's not the cookie cutter, uh, story, uh, you know, the cookie cutter recipes that we talk about a lot in the humane marketing and I like follow everybody else's recipe for success, but it also has to do with cookies.

[00:08:55] So why don't you start us off there, Patty?

[00:08:59] Patty: Sir, [00:09:00] when I was growing up, my mom made these fabulous cookies. The whole house smelled good, it was warm, the cookies were gooey, and all my life I watched my mom eat the broken cookies. But it wasn't until I was a teenager that I even thought to ask her, why do you only eat the broken cookies?

[00:09:19] Do they taste better? And she laughed and said no I eat the broken cookies so you can have the whole ones And that memory came rushing back to me several years ago when I was struggling to put words Around a really pervasive pattern that I had seen in the decades that i've worked with women business owners that That's what we're doing as women and that image of my mom eating the broken cookies popped in my head I realized that we are Watching our role models are moms and our grandmothers and they brought that spirit of self sacrifice to everything they did [00:10:00] so we're following that and we're bringing that into our businesses and that's what I call the broken cookie effect when we undervalue ourselves we underprice our services and then we over deliver so we struggle to be profitable we Really have a lot of limiting behaviors because I believe everything in your business flows from your pricing, when you can hire, who you can hire, the technology that you bring into your company, all of the things that you spend money on, you can't do that.

[00:10:36] And you don't have those choices unless your pricing is appropriate and your company is profitable. And so, What I've seen is that everyone around us, our clients, our staff, our families, everybody gets the whole cookie and we live on crumbs.

[00:10:54] Sarah: Yeah, that's quite the story. And it's, I could think of at least three or four [00:11:00] women, uh, in my personal life that I've seen kind of doing similar things.

[00:11:05] And then also, yes, in business, I think this definitely, um, resonates and I, I see that. I obviously I didn't know about the cookie story before, but to me, it's like this feminine energy, we're so good at certain things, the caretaking, the, the empathy, we're both, um, HSPs as well, highly sensitive people, Patty.

[00:11:30] And so there's this, you know, very nurturing care that we bring to our business and the feminine energy. But on the other side of the coin, there's then also this, yeah, this broken cookie effect where we struggle to take care of ourselves, right? Um,

[00:11:51] Patty: yeah. Let me add that the broken cookie effect is not about putting yourself first and everybody else last.

[00:11:59] [00:12:00] That's against our nature. I mean, talking exactly about what you're talking about in terms of our feminine energy and our need and ability to nurture. Those are all parts of who we are as humans. And I don't mean to minimize those or dismiss those at all, but there's a reason that you're in business.

[00:12:21] And it's a reason that there's a business instead of a hobby. And that is to make money. And often we have to live on the money that we make from our businesses. So there is a real consequence if we're always putting ourselves last. And So worried about taking care of everyone around us that we miss the idea that unless we take care of ourselves emotionally logistically Being able to delegate being able to put boundaries around what you're doing and saying Unless we're able to do that effectively, [00:13:00] then there's such a high toll that it takes on us as a person Yeah,

[00:13:05] Sarah: so true.

[00:13:07] And on the other hand, I see this kind of Um, either in where, especially in the, you know, the conscious entrepreneur sphere, and I'm again, specifically thinking of women, but it's probably all, all genders who want to be affordable for everybody because, you know, we're conscious entrepreneurs and so we need to be affordable for, for everybody.

[00:13:34] Um, And then we apply low prices and, and, and at the same time, then burning out because we just can't be sustainable with these low prices. So, uh, yeah. So how do we knowing all of that? How do we do it differently where it feels good to ourselves, but it also feels good for our clients who. [00:14:00] You know, where we still want to respect that not everybody can maybe afford high level prices.

[00:14:07] What's your suggestion

[00:14:10] Patty: here? So that was the question that was really ringing in my head was the phrase that I often hear from women business owners is, but if I raise my prices, it's not fair to my. Buyers, it's not fair to my clients. So remember that you as the business owner have a lot of choices and you get to set the stage for what you do and what you don't do.

[00:14:38] But sometimes we forget that and we think the client is the boss, right? And sometimes we've created a job for ourselves instead of building a business. So part of the work that I do is working with women that are further along in their journey, and they want to start building real business value so that one day they can exit their company [00:15:00] and sell it if they choose to.

[00:15:02] But one of the challenges is that when I talk to women business owners, especially those that are expertise based, They say, but I don't have anything to sell and that is a real misunderstanding of value. So I'm going to go back to the original point about pricing. So the antidote to the broken cookie effect, how you can beat that is with a four step system that I've developed called the snap system.

[00:15:31] And the reason there are four pieces and it's not as simple as raising your prices because if it were that simple. Everybody would do that every year. And just call it a day, right? But it's not simple, exactly to your point. So the SNAP system stands for S Stop believing the myths and narrow your focus a assess your value and P practice your power and this [00:16:00] actually is the structure of my book, which is called your hidden advantage and that's a great place to start because not only will you learn the concepts around this, but also their exercises.

[00:16:13] And, um, when you go through those exercises, it will help you gain some clarity because a lot of the reason that we don't change our pricing or add structure to it is because we're afraid. And because sometimes we think, well, that's not fair, but remember you have choices. So here's what I typically recommend is.

[00:16:37] Add structure to your pricing, build a pricing model. It makes you more confident because there's a rationale behind how you're pricing and do that only with new clients. And leave your current clients alone. You can change the pricing over time with your existing clients, but there's no big hurry [00:17:00] and your new clients won't really know the difference.

[00:17:03] So going back to the snap system, stop believing the myths. So those are all those limiting beliefs like pricing. I price based on what the market can bear. And that is. That's kind of my pet peeve because there's no such thing as what the market can bear as long as you understand that there's a price point for every buyer.

[00:17:28] And we see that all the time. We see that in retail, right? There are different stores. You can buy a blouse in any of those stores, but which woman shops in which store depends on how much money she can spend and what she thinks is important and your buyers. Come to you with that same mindset. So if you can build what I call the perceived value The value in the mind of your buyer, then every step you take to build value helps your buyer [00:18:00] understand your pricing, your compensation, and there isn't any pushback.

[00:18:07] Now, the important part of that is the end. Narrow your focus, because that's about finding right fit clients, what I call ideal buyers. And a lot of times we're waiting for the phone to ring, we're only, we only have an inbound process. Sometimes we don't have a process at all. We're waiting for the phone to ring and then we're winging it, trying to figure out how do we convince this person to buy from us.

[00:18:39] And that approach Does not work or if it works temporarily all of a sudden it will stop working and you will be shocked and horrified that now what do you do your job is the business owner is not to convince anyone of anything that's just not your role you if you [00:19:00] provide an expertise. Or if you provide any kind of service or even a product product is a little bit easier because you have a supply chain and you can price your product partially based on the expenses of producing that product with a service company sometimes it feels like we pick a number out of thin air.

[00:19:21] And that doesn't feel good. So building a pricing model is really important. But the snap system is in that order for a reason, because the limiting thinking is your first issue. So I teach in my book, how do you shift the way you think? The second piece, narrow your focus is about finding those buyers who understand the value you bring.

[00:19:46] That means they also will understand your pricing model and they're going to be such great clients because they already value you and the assess your value is about building your pricing [00:20:00] model and I teach how to do that in the book as well and the last piece is practice your power that is all about communicating and the huge challenge we have as women is that we're typically raised not to talk about ourselves.

[00:20:15] And that if you talk about yourself, it's bragging and that doesn't feel good. So I'm based in Houston, Texas in the U S and we have a saying here in Texas that it's not bragging if it's true. And I grew up believing that, that we can talk about ourselves effectively without it feel like. Feeling like it's bragging so that is part of what I teach as well is how do you communicate assertively and with confidence and I teach very specific techniques to do that.

[00:20:50] Sarah: There's so much that, um, you just shared in just a few minutes. And I, I want to unpack some, uh, some of the things you, you mentioned. I think the [00:21:00] first thing that really stood out, and I think it's super important to, to repeat is you said applied new prices to new clients. Keep your old prices for existing clients.

[00:21:14] And I think. That is really unique advice or, or, or maybe other people say it, but they don't say it often enough because I feel like there's this message that everybody hears, Oh, I need to always increase my prices. And then people go out and send out this email to all their clients saying my prices are now, you know, this much, and then they start losing all their clients and they wonder what they did wrong, um, well, they, what they did wrong is that.

[00:21:46] The previous clients, they bought into the value that you sold them then, right? And so you really need to kind of communicate your new value first, so that the new clients [00:22:00] buy into this new value that you're selling. And I think that, yeah, that's key. And that's, that's really what I'm doing right now with the humane marketing circle as well.

[00:22:09] Um, and I'm going to be very transparent about that. You know, the existing clients, they are members, let's say they bought in at a lower price and it's normal, uh, that when you build a community, there's not that much, uh, not that many members yet, not that much engagement, right. You could get in at a lower price, but now we have 60 members.

[00:22:33] There's now four calls per month. Well, the value has increased like by huge amounts. And so obviously I had to raise my price. And so the new members will, yes, they will get in at a higher price, but they also buy in at a higher value. And I think that's really important to understand that you can't just expect.

[00:22:54] Now, if I would send out to all my existing members saying, Oh, the price is [00:23:00] now double. Well, a few of them would probably say, well, okay, but that's too bad. I bought in at this rate. Now this won't work for me anymore. It's not that they don't value it. It's more just like. They bought into it when it was a different price.

[00:23:18] And so they would be disappointed, uh, to see that, you know, the price now doubled. And I think that is so key to remember then just not do that with existing clients either. Um, so yeah, I really appreciate you saying that.

[00:23:34] Patty: Yes, and think about it this way, too. The people who bought in at the beginning took a risk, right?

[00:23:41] Yeah, there could have been very little value and I bet all of us have experienced that where we've gotten involved with a program And it turned out there really wasn't that much value to it Right. We took a risk spending our money and investing in something Because we believed in the person doing it or [00:24:00] we thought there was going to be a lot of value So not only did we take a risk, but we've remained loyal We've remained a member because we're happy to help that grow Exactly.

[00:24:12] Yeah, and we've all had that experience. So I think there should be some reward For that taking a risk and being loyal and helping build the membership exactly and because of that Keeping the legacy prices makes sense to everybody. Mm hmm.

[00:24:30] Sarah: Yeah, yeah, totally. Um, the other things you mentioned in your, in your SNAP system, um, so the first one, yeah, is basically the mindset piece, right?

[00:24:42] How do you get, how do you stop believing some of these myths around pricing? And it's so important that Everything you do starts with the mindset shift. Um, and I'm so glad you, yeah, you talk about that too. And then, uh, just like in [00:25:00] marketing or branding as well, like anything we do online, well, we need to be very clear who we are talking to.

[00:25:08] And so it seems like it's the same thing for our prices. The one question I have, and I guess it's the same in marketing, um, can we have different ideal clients? And if so, will the prices be different?

[00:25:28] Patty: Possibly. So, yes, um, I think what you're describing is clients who want different services.

[00:25:38] Sarah: It could be different.

[00:25:39] It could be different services. Um, it could be different. It could be the same service, but different levels of access things like this,

[00:25:48] Patty: right? Absolutely. And you can customize that. So that is the power of the pricing model, right? As you could use one pricing model with different levels. Right. [00:26:00] And, um, so I have two parts to my audience.

[00:26:04] One are those that are earlier in their journey, they're very focused on growth and that's really who I wrote the book for. The other part of my audience are women that are further along in their journey and want a position for exit. So there is a difference in, it's the same pricing model that I use, but there's a difference because Transcribed There's a difference in complexity in terms of how I'm advising those business owners.

[00:26:34] So yes, that works really well. You can also, and I give examples of this in the book, you can take a couple different pricing models and blend those together. And use kind of a hybrid that works really well. And I can give you an example. I work with a lot of accountants and many of them are outsourced chief financial officers.

[00:26:58] So they're advising [00:27:00] other businesses about their business, their financial strategies and. The base pricing model that we developed is a monthly fee for the advisory services, but almost a hundred percent of the clients need some kind of project at the beginning. Let's say they need their bookkeeping cleaned up or they need an audit.

[00:27:27] An informal audit done to figure out where they are financially. Sometimes things have gotten messed up with a previous bookkeeper. So they need that project at the beginning. So we have a scoping template that will help them do that to figure out the pricing for that project, and then they go into the monthly fee.

[00:27:50] So that's a hybrid. Situation and regardless of the dollar amount that you put on that model the [00:28:00] model stays the same and that is something it's easier for your buyers to understand it easier for you to talk about it because all of a sudden when you're talking about it you're talking about the structure and it's not personal.

[00:28:16] It's not about you or your expertise or your staff. It's about the structure of the pricing and your buyer will really understand that. Right.

[00:28:26] Sarah: So if I'm understanding this correctly, when you talk about the pricing model, that means it's specific to your business. And in the case of the, uh, outsourced, uh, CFO, uh, it could take some done for you work and then kind of a retainer portion.

[00:28:45] Right. And so it just depends on what kind of services. You are, um, delivering and how would this, because I have a lot of coaches who, who are listening, could you give me an idea of how [00:29:00] this could work if you're mainly selling your coaching services, could there be a done for you proportion to it? How could you, um, Come up with a creative pricing model.

[00:29:13] Patty: So it would really depend on the services the coaches are offering. So most coaches, especially business coaches, are helping them with different aspects of their business. So that's why a monthly amount, perhaps it's paid at the beginning of every month, what I could call a retainer. Perhaps that is a really good method.

[00:29:36] Now, the reason That people are afraid to do that is because they feel as though they might get taken advantage of. They're still thinking in hours and they're thinking. What right there thinking well what if my client calls me like three times a day and it's kind of driving me crazy and all this stuff and i'm not really being compensated for that because i have this flat [00:30:00] rate monthly fee so that goes back to boundaries and setting expectations so i believe that.

[00:30:10] When we're talking about finding your ideal client, that's backwards because you need to find an ideal buyer and help them be ready to buy so that you can then help them become an ideal client. That does not happen by accident. And it happens when you set and manage those expectations at the very beginning.

[00:30:33] Once they become a client and you draw those boundaries and you help them understand what's included and what is not included. And then if they need. extra help, then you have the ability to go back to them and say, well, you'll recall that our setup is that this includes two meetings a month and emails.

[00:30:55] If you would like to add some meetings or calls, I have this piece that you [00:31:00] can add on to it. And this is what it would cost again, structural, not personal. And it makes it so much easier to go back to your client and say, I'm happy to help you. And here's what it will cost to add on this piece and whether or not your client is going to say, yes, depends on if they can afford it.

[00:31:21] And if they value it. And if you've shown them every step of the way, the kind of value that you bring. So going back to what you said a few minutes ago about there is no cookie cutter solution. That is true of everything in your business and most importantly, pricing. There is no cookie cutter answer and you need to figure out what works in your business with the population that you want to work with.

[00:31:49] And right now you may not have a population of ideal clients. You may feel as though you have to take everyone who comes to you. In order to generate enough revenue [00:32:00] and that is a trap it's a really unfortunate trap and a very common one so if you will take a step back and really go out and find your ideal buyer you have to define who that is and then go find them and I give some strategies in the book once you do that then you'll you will notice a night and day difference because.

[00:32:25] Then you're working with people that you're excited to work with. You get great results. They're willing to put in the work and you're not just taking anyone who comes to you. And it makes that whole pricing conversation kind of a non issue because everyone understands the value.

[00:32:43] Sarah: Yeah, let's talk about this value.

[00:32:46] Um, because I think that's one thing that is hugely important for pricing, right? Uh, so how, what are some strategies that you can share that would help listeners? [00:33:00] Communicate their value better, because if we said it before, you can't just increase your prices. You need to, I think, first increase your confidence.

[00:33:10] Uh, so I guess to go back to the myths, right, that's where you need to stop and start on working on your confidence and in your mindset. And then and then also communicate your value in a different way so what are some ways that you have seen with clients how did they start to communicate their value

[00:33:30] Patty: differently one of the problems that we start with is that we think value is.

[00:33:38] All about the results. It is largely about results and you certainly want to get results, but I bet your audience is already getting good results and I bet they pride themselves on that because most of us are high achievers and we, that's the problem with over delivering [00:34:00] is it's such a slippery slope because once you say, okay, I'll add that.

[00:34:05] I'm not going to charge you extra. I'll go ahead and add that service. Where can where do you stop right and your client doesn't understand the value because you just gave it to them for free So again, it's a trap and then how do you say no in the future, right? It becomes more and more difficult. We feel more and more afraid so When you start things from the very beginning It's really helpful.

[00:34:34] So Some examples of how can you build value think about all the things? In fact, let me share an exercise that your audience can do today, and that is find a, an accountability partner, someone who knows you well, knows your business, you know them and their business, and you're about the same point in your journey, [00:35:00] and you are going to write down.

[00:35:04] Everything of value that you think the other person provides for their clients, and they're going to do the same thing for you, then you're going to exchange. And it's a really powerful exercise because they will put things on your list. That you would never have thought of. So when I did this exercise many, many years ago, the thing that surprised me most is that the first item on the list that I received was calm and that I have a calming voice and a calming demeanor.

[00:35:38] I would never have put that on my list.

[00:35:41] Sarah: Yeah, because you just are the way you are. Right. And so you exactly know that about, well, maybe you knew it, but you didn't think it was a value because. You just assumed everybody

[00:35:52] Patty: was like that. That's exactly right. And then I went and tested the things on my list, and every [00:36:00] time I would ask them, so what do you think of calm as one of the points of value?

[00:36:05] And every single person I talked to, clients and colleagues, they all said, oh, of course. Absolutely. You have the most calming voice and my clients would say, and I know if I call you and I'm completely freaked out about something, you're going to share a different perspective and it's going to calm me down and I'm going to be able to make better decisions.

[00:36:29] So it's tremendously valuable, but I didn't recognize that. So you will be surprised at what people put on your list. And that's why it's such a powerful exercise. Then once you get your list, go test it. And ask people in your circle. The other thing that we often overlook is our network, your network. If you've spent time and energy building your network of people and contacts and those other [00:37:00] experts, that is incredible value for your clients.

[00:37:04] And yet, just like being calm, we think, Oh, but you know, everybody has a network and everybody thinks, you know, that's, that's what you do in business. But I will tell you, if you can shortcut something for your clients by making an introduction to somebody that you already trust, that is a huge value. So those kinds of things that we are not thinking of on a day to day basis will help build value.

[00:37:34] If you have staff, even if they're contractors, they don't have to be employees, but anyone that helps you in your business. That is valuable to your clients because anybody you have helping you means you get to focus on what you do best. And that helps your clients. Yeah,

[00:37:53] Sarah: that's such a good point. Yeah, it's, it's, it's the small things.

[00:37:59] That [00:38:00] again, like you said, we don't think of that are actually make the big difference and, and, and sometimes it's in, I talk in the selling like a human book, I talk about tangible value and intangible value. And so some of the things you just mentioned is intangible, right? Well, how does calming that's going to help my inner.

[00:38:24] Garden, right? And so that's kind of intangible where some of the tangible value is, is maybe something that is really easy for you. For example, what's really easy for me is to write someone's LinkedIn profile. I've done that for 15 years, right? So it's really easy for me, for someone else, for my clients.

[00:38:44] That is a huge burden. And so they're like super appreciative of me adding this just as an add on, uh, service. Right. And so that, that's the, kind of the done for you aspects that you can add that then [00:39:00] also kind of show this tangible value where they can say, okay, check, you know, this is now also off my plate.

[00:39:07] And there are, there, there's not one that's better than the other. I feel like tangible and intangible. They are equal in, especially in the times we are now, like serenity, calm, focus, all of these things are so super valuable. So I'm really glad you, you brought those up and, and what a great exercise. Yeah.

[00:39:27] To do that with a friend who then brings out things that you didn't even know about. Right. Yeah. What are some things, uh, advice that you could give. Someone who's, who's just starting out and, and are, is probably struggling still with this idea of, uh, determining fair pricing, where would you tell them to start?

[00:39:51] It's probably definitely the, you know, stop the, the myths. That's probably the first step. But then if we go into the more tangible things, [00:40:00] where would you tell them to start?

[00:40:02] Patty: Well, you know. I've experienced exactly what you're describing just starting out. So in a former life, I had a business in political consulting and lobbying and had that business for about eight years.

[00:40:15] And the challenge that I experienced was that my revenue was tied to the election cycle in the U. S. So I was on this rollercoaster all the time, revenue ups and downs. So that was really frustrating. And if there were resources to help me. Grow my business and solve those problems. I didn't know how to find those resources and I didn't know who to trust.

[00:40:41] So that was really frustrating for me. I also, I was a really good consultant, but I didn't know how to price and I didn't know how to sell and. When I went out to try and find programs and courses and figure all that out and I took a lot of those What I found is that [00:41:00] primarily they were designed by men for men and they weren't working for me And when I started talking to my friends who were business owners, they said the same thing Well, I tried that method and it didn't work for me either and at first we think it's us We think, oh, well, I just can't make that work.

[00:41:18] The problem is they're not understanding. Those programs are not understanding the way women think, the way we operate, the way we struggle, how we're juggling a million things, including our families and our businesses and our personal needs and all of those things and sometimes taking care of parents.

[00:41:41] And so I've been in that situation and. I really struggled when I was starting my business in political consulting, and that's why I started developing my own programs, because it's designed by a woman, by me, specifically for other women business owners. And that [00:42:00] has worked really well. So I would say if you're just starting out, take advantage of the shortcuts that are available to you.

[00:42:09] Don't struggle for as many years as I did. I wish someone had. Been able to provide some relief for me, but I had to figure it out myself. And so what I would recommend is read your hidden advantage, because that is the recipe for the different steps that you can take with the snap system of how you can learn how to price, how to deal with your limiting beliefs, how to find the right people that you want to work with.

[00:42:40] And when I say right, people, right. People for you. Right. So you probably already know who you do want to work with and who you do not want to work with. You can start with who you don't want to work with, right? Sometimes that's easier and rule [00:43:00] out the people. So my guess is no one in your audience wants to work with somebody who is arrogant and mean.

[00:43:07] All right, definitely. Okay, so if we eliminate all the arrogant, mean people, then you can start to pair back. Well, what's the opposite of that? Who do I really want to work with? I want to work with kind, giving, thoughtful, smart people. And then I start. Really creating a picture. So a colleague of mine asked me not too long ago, if I had to pick a fictional character as my ideal buyer, who would it be?

[00:43:39] And it only took me about 10 seconds to realize, have you ever seen the show, the X Files? Okay. Dana Scully is my ideal buyer. If, if she was a business owner, she would absolutely be my ideal buyer because she's a high achieving, highly educated woman. She is devoted to her [00:44:00] work. Sometimes she thinks her work is her hobby and she takes responsibility.

[00:44:05] She makes good decisions. She believes in evidence based science, but she's open to new ideas. That really describes my ideal buyer. And when you can think of a fictional character in that way, that may help you determine who you really want to work with, then you want to attract them in your messaging and how you talk about yourself, your value, and then you want to go out and find that person.

[00:44:37] And remember that even if you're selling into big companies, you're still selling to a person. It's still a human being. And when I say selling, I don't mean convincing. I mean, taking them on a sales journey so that they're ready to buy and they understand the value and they're excited to work with you.

[00:44:59] [00:45:00] Yeah,

[00:45:00] Sarah: yeah, I call it resonating. And so it's very similar, right? Because we're not pushing and it's just being present out there and yeah, resonating with the right clients. So they come into your gentle sales path and in the gentle sales path, there was no convincing, just like you mentioned people. And I guess that's why I have focused so heavily on marketing because.

[00:45:28] When you market the human way, you then don't almost don't need to sell anymore because then it's just, it's just a human conversation that has to do with money, but there is no pushing kind of, you know, it's not a unidirectional sales conversation where you're pushing something. So,

[00:45:51] Patty: and I believe. Yeah, I believe the same thing.

[00:45:54] And again, that works so much better and more effectively for women.

[00:45:59] Sarah: Yeah, [00:46:00] exactly. Yeah. Yeah. I was reflecting on this whole thing with the, you know, with this feminine energy and the, the cookie story, like, cause we have obviously male listeners as well. And I, I'm just actually curious. To, I would love to hear if you're listening to this and you're in a male body, uh, I would love to hear whether you see this happening as well in the business world, I'd be curious because I see it even in like mastermind groups or small communities like that where, you know, we're very value aligned and the males are very much Hey.

[00:46:43] Um, aligned also with the feminine energy. And yet I always feel like to them, it's just normal to be seen, to take up space. And it's not the same for the women in the group, right? [00:47:00] Even though the values are aligned, even though they're not, you know, macho type guys who, you know, that they, but it's just comes natural.

[00:47:10] And I think it's, it's part of our history. It's just how we've, yeah, we've kind of. Evolved over time and always looking at our, our moms and the moms before that is really part of this, uh, story that we need to let

[00:47:29] Patty: go of. There is and also if you keep in perspective, the pressure that is put on the guys.

[00:47:36] So I have two brothers and when I was growing up, there was a lot of pressure put on my brothers because they were expected to be breadwinners. I, as a woman. Now, again, you can think of this as chauvinistic, but I wasn't expected to be a breadwinner. I became a breadwinner, but I wasn't raised that way.

[00:47:59] And I had to [00:48:00] learn a lot of these skills, which I did with my political consulting business. And but then I have to say, all of a sudden I was 35 years old, had three little kids at home, a thriving business and a surprise divorce. And I was thrust into the situation of all of a sudden I'm now responsible because there was no financial support.

[00:48:25] So I'm responsible for raising my three children on my own with no emotional, logistical or financial support. And that is why I closed my political consulting business. And went to get a job and part of that was because a lobbying required a lot of travel and I knew that I needed to be home to stabilize things for the kids at that time.

[00:48:49] My youngest was about 2 and he just turned 31. So, I have raised my children myself and I have, um, help them all get through [00:49:00] college and graduate school and launch their careers. And now they're all 3 business owners. Nice. Congratulations. Thank you. So, you know, all the twists and turns that we experience in our lives.

[00:49:11] I wasn't raised to be a breadwinner, but I became that because I had to. And because of that, those skills that I learned. Over the course of my life now, I really can put them to work in teaching other women how to build your confidence You have more power and choices than you realize And again part of that is how we're raised and it's generational So 30 or 40 years from now, maybe that won't be the case for women But right now it is and we are very influenced by previous generations and the role models that we grew up with Yeah,

[00:49:56] Sarah: let's hope it won't be like that anymore 30, 30 years [00:50:00] from now, or hopefully even less.

[00:50:02] Patty: Exactly.

[00:50:03] Sarah: Wonderful. Well, this has been really interesting and, uh, yeah, just very great and deep conversation. Thank you so much, Patty. Please do mention your book again, and where people can find you, your website, everything.

[00:50:18] Patty: You bet, and thank you again for having me, this has been great. You can contact me through my website, theblockgroup.

[00:50:27] net, and if you're interested in the book, There are several bonuses that you can download for free that are companion pieces to the book, including a video training called The Value Equation. And the book is called Your Hidden Advantage, which you can find on Amazon. But if you go to yourhiddenadvantage.

[00:50:46] com, you can also access the bonuses.

[00:50:50] Sarah: Wonderful. I'll make sure to put those links in the show notes. Thank you. I always ask one last question, uh, Patty, and that is what are you grateful for [00:51:00] this week or today?

[00:51:02] Patty: Well, I have a new grandson and, and he made me a grandmother. So I am, he's just turning six months old.

[00:51:12] And very sadly, my mom passed away about six months ago. She, she died a month or two before he was born. And, um, It was very shocking because she wasn't ill and she was so happy. And my mom and I were very, very close. And in fact, the book is in many ways, a tribute to my mom. And there are stories about her.

[00:51:37] And as I was writing the book and she was so excited for it to come out and I would ask her, can I use this story? Can I use this photograph? And she was so excited with all the pieces that I was adding to the book. And. Sadly, she passed away very suddenly, and it turns out that my new grandson is named [00:52:00] after her.

[00:52:01] So it's really a lovely tribute, and I'm so grateful that I'm grateful for my family, my children, for sure, and for my new grandson.

[00:52:11] Sarah: Yeah, it's wonderful. Yeah. Sorry for your mom's passing, but who knows? Maybe he, he really took her spirit and, and came back. Yes. It's wonderful. Thanks so much for spending time with me today.

[00:52:26] Thanks, Patty. Thank you. I hope you got some great value from listening to this episode. You can find out more about Patti and her work at theblockgroup. net and Patti has a free training called The Value Equation, which you can get for free by signing up for the bonuses that are companion pieces for Patti's book, Your Hidden Advantage, Unlock the Power to Attract Right Fit Clients and Boost Your Revenue, so definitely check it out.

[00:52:56] Uh, look up her book and see if that's a good fit for [00:53:00] you. If you're looking for others who think like you, then why not join us in the Humane Marketing Circle? You can find out more about the circle at humane. marketing forward slash circle. And again, a reminder that the early bird discount of 200 for the Marketing Like We're Human, aka the Client Resonator program, is ending on July 31st.

[00:53:25] So if you are interested in that program and would like to benefit from that discount, please make sure you book a call with me before that deadline. It doesn't matter if we speak after, I will still apply the discount, but just send me an email and we'll book a call. And, uh, yeah, I'd love to have to have you on that, uh, program.

[00:53:47] You find the show notes of this episode at humane dot marketing forward slash H M one 69. And on this beautiful page, you'll also find a series of free offers [00:54:00] such as the humane business manifesto in the free gentle confidence mini course, as well as my two books, marketing like we're human and selling like we're human.

[00:54:11] Thank you so much for listening. And being part of a generation of marketers who cares for yourself, your clients, and the planet. We are changemakers before we are marketers. So now go be the change you want to see in the world. Speak soon.

In this episode we dive into the topic of service lines. In this solo episode I explore the relevance of service lines for service-based businesses and draws parallels to product lines commonly used in product-based businesses. I explain how service lines can provide clarity, structure, and differentiation to offerings.

Using the example of the Humane Marketing service line, I highlight various products and services within the line that help individuals adopt Humane Marketing in their business. I discussed the benefits of implementing service lines, such as showcasing expertise, targeting specific niches, and helping clients understand pricing models. Tune in to gain insights on how service lines can benefit your service-based business and enhance your marketing approach.

In this episode I talked about:

• Product lines vs. Service lines
• The benefits of having service lines in service-based businesses
• Steps to implement service lines in your business
• The role of service lines in pricing and packaging services
• Having multiple service lines targeting different client segments
• Effective marketing and promotion of different service lines
• and much more

[00:00:00] Sarah Santacroce: Hello, humane marketers. Welcome back to the Humane Marketing Podcast, the place to be for the generation of marketers that cares. This is a show where we talk about running your business in a way that feels good to you, is aligned with your values, and also resonates with today's conscious customers because it's humane, ethical, and non pushy.

[00:00:23] I'm Sarah Roche, your hippie turned business coach for quietly rebellious entrepreneurs and marketing impact pioneers. Mama Bear of the Humane Marketing Circle and renegade author of marketing like We're human and selling like we're human. If after listening to the show for a while, you're ready to move on to the next level and start.

[00:00:44] Implementing and would welcome a community of like-minded, quietly rebellious entrepreneurs who discuss with transparency what works and what doesn't work in business. Then we'd love to welcome you in our humane marketing circle. If you're picturing your [00:01:00] typical Facebook group, let me paint a new picture for you.

[00:01:03] This is a closed community. Of like-minded entrepreneurs from all over the world who come together once per month in a Zoom circle workshop to hold each other accountable and build their business in a sustainable way. We share with transparency and vulnerability what works for us and what doesn't work, so that you can figure out what works for you instead of keep throwing spaghetti on the wall and seeing what sticks.

[00:01:30] Find out more. At Humane Marketing slash Circle, and if you prefer one-on-one support from me, my humane business coaching could be just what you need, whether it's for your marketing, sales, general business building, or help with your big idea like writing a book. I'd love to share my brain and my heart with you together with my almost 15 years business experience and help you grow a sustainable business that is joyful and sustainable.

[00:01:58] If you love this [00:02:00] podcast, wait until I show you my Mama Bear qualities as my one-on-one client. You can find out more at Humane Marketing slash Coaching. And finally, if you are a Marketing Impact pioneer and would like to bring Humane Marketing to your organization, have a look at my offers and workshops on my website at Humane Marketing.

[00:02:30] Hello friends. It's been a while since I've done a solo episode, so in today's episode it's just me by myself talking about the P of product at. Term that we often hear related to product is the term product line. Uh, clearly this is a term that's mainly used for a product-based business, one that has different products and clusters of products that fall under the same product line.[00:03:00]

[00:03:00] Each product is sold individually, but they are part of the same product line. For example, a shampoo, hair wax, hairspray, hair mask, et cetera, et cetera. So that's usually what we call a product line. So I was thinking, well, can this apply also to a service-based business? Can we have service lines? And the answer is a clear yes.

[00:03:25] And we should, um, so maybe to start, It would help to understand what a service line is. Um, just like a product line, like I just said, consists of a group of related products. Well, a service line refers to a collection of related services offered by a business. So these services may differ in their specific features, pricing, ideal clients, or any other distinguishing factors, but they all.

[00:03:57] Fall under the umbrella of the same [00:04:00] service line. Think of it as a way to categorize and organize the services you offer to your clients. Let's take Humane Marketing as an example in the Humane Marketing service line. Uh, we have this podcast, which is obviously free. It's a free product, if you will, or a service, I don't really know.

[00:04:23] Um, the marketing like or human book, which is a low cost investment to learn more about humane marketing. So that's a product, the humane marketing circle. Our community, a monthly subscription for Humane Marketers. That's a service. The marketing like we're human, aka the Client Resonator program, which starts again on August 24th, by the way.

[00:04:46] So that's my flagship program that I run to twice per year. Um, and that's related to the seven Ps of humane marketing. Um, So it's a service program and then one-on-one [00:05:00] coaching with one of our certified Humane marketing coaches, or with myself. So again, another service. And then finally, bespoke humane marketing workshops for organ organizations.

[00:05:13] So all of these products or services have one thing in common, helping individuals adopt humane marketing in their business. So it's all about. Humane marketing. Then I also have a humane selling service line, which starts with the selling, like we're human book, the community, the Fair and authentic Pricing mini course.

[00:05:37] So that's a standalone, uh, service slash product because it comes with a video course, but also one-on-one session with me. Um, That talks about pricing, and so that's why it fits more into the Humane Selling service line and then also the one-on-one coaching, uh, with me. Here, the main objective is related to [00:06:00] sales.

[00:06:00] Um, they are distinct service lines with different objectives, and each product service is a standalone offer, and yet they relate to each other just like, uh, shampoo and hair racks do. So obviously not everyone needs hair waxs, but some people want the whole service line. So there, there's like a natural progression to.

[00:06:26] You know, go from one thing to the next. I purposely don't call it a funnel because, uh, if you're a regular listener here, you know that we don't talk about sales funnels. We talk about gentle sales paths. And so I guess gentle sales path would kind of be similar to this idea of a service line. So why do we need.

[00:06:50] Service lines as service-based businesses? Well, there are several benefits to adopting this approach. First, uh, service lines [00:07:00] provide clarity and structure to your offerings by grouping similar services to together you create a more organized framework that helps your clients understand the different options available to them.

[00:07:14] Secondly, service lines allow you to showcase your expertise in specialization so people know. Okay, SU. She has two service lines, humane Marketing, humane selling. Uh, I'm actually adding a, a third one or it's already kind of dormant and I'll tell you about it more in a second. Um, just as a product line can cater to different customers needs and preferences, service lines enable you to target specific niches or industries and position yourself as an expert in those areas.

[00:07:47] And this can enhance your brand reputation and attract clients who are looking for specialized services. Tailored to their unique requirements. And thirdly, it also helps your [00:08:00] clients understand your pricing model. Some products or services are at the lower end and others are at the higher end. In order to get started to, to put in place your service lines, there are a few steps to follow.

[00:08:16] Step one is to really have a look at all your current services. If you have several services already, um, Take a close look at the services you offer and then identify any natural groupings or similarities. Just like I just said, you know, is it se, is it selling related? Is it marketing related? In my case, that's how I define the different service lines.

[00:08:42] Are there services that compliment each other or serve the same ideal client? These are potential candidates for your service lines, step two. Then involves defining the unique value proposition for each service line. So again, Mar, is it marketing [00:09:00] or is it selling? What sets each group of services apart from the others?

[00:09:05] Is there a specific benefit or outcome that clients can expect from choosing that service line? I told you about marketing and selling one. Outcome is a better marketing strategy. The other outcome is a better sales strategy. Clearly articulating the value of each service line will help you differentiate them and attract the right customers.

[00:09:29] Step three is all about branding and marketing. Just as a product line needs effective branding to stand out. Your service lines should have their own distinctive branding elements. This could include a unique name, logo, website, section, and other marketing collaterals tailored to each service line. By giving each service line its own identity, you make it easier for clients to understand and engage with the [00:10:00] different offerings.

[00:10:01] In my, in my case, everything to do with marketing is in the color emerald green. Everything to do with humane selling is in the color earth, red, so, And as I hinted at before, as of next year when I have the third book about being human in business, I'll have a third service line, which will be all about sustainable and humane business building practices and changing our relationship to work.

[00:10:33] That third service line is in dark blue. And you already see those colors reflected on my site. I planned for them when I did my big rebrand two years ago. So I already have on the homepage, you already see Humane Business in blue. It's just that, um, I didn't have the different services that go under the service line yet.

[00:10:57] So, um, that's what I have for you [00:11:00] to wrap up. I thought it would be fun to ask chat g PT what kind of questions listeners might have after listening to this short episode. And here are a few that it suggested Are service lines applicable to solo entrepreneurs or small businesses? In the answer, um, that.

[00:11:20] It helped me, uh, write, but then of course, I, uh, I added to it and corrected it. So, yes, service lines are applicable to solo entrepreneurs and small businesses, as well as I just demonstrated, um, with my own example. They can help you organize your services, create a clear value proposition, and resonate with specific client segments.

[00:11:44] Should all services offered by a business be part of a service line? Not necessarily. While grouping services into service lines can provide clarity and structure, it's not mandatory for all services to be part [00:12:00] of a services line. Some services may be unique and or standalone offerings that do not fit with any, uh, particular service line.

[00:12:09] I'm thinking of a new program called The Business Book Alchemist. I'm launching this fall to help fellow renegade authors write their first book that becomes part of their life's work. It may fit into the humane business service line, but I'm not sure about that yet. So right now, I created as a standalone one-off program.

[00:12:33] How do service lines help with pricing and packaging of services? Service lines help with pricing and packaging by providing a framework for differentiating services and creating pricing tiers. So by categorizing services into service lines, you can offer different packages or pricing models based on the specific value and outcomes associated with each service [00:13:00] line.

[00:13:01] Can I have multiple service lines targeting different client segments? Yes, you can. Different clients have different needs and you can tailor your services accordingly. So each service line can focus on a specific ideal client industry or niche. So this just makes me also think of my, um, workshops for organizations.

[00:13:27] It, it's a complete different service line again, uh, from all the other services that I offered to, uh, entrepreneurs, heart-centered entrepreneurs. How do you market and promote different service lines effectively? Uh, we talked about that to promote and market different service lines, it helps to develop distinct branding elements for each service line.

[00:13:53] So unique names like Humane Marketing, humane selling, Hume Unique logos, different [00:14:00] colors, website sections, and other marketing collateral tailored to each service line. I hope you found this short episode, solo episode helpful, and, uh, it makes you think a little bit about your own services, how you bundle them, if there's any kind of logic in terms of service lines in it.

[00:14:23] This is obviously, uh, a strategy that applies more to someone who has been in business for a few years already and maybe has different services and products, but without a clear strategy. If this is your case and you'd like to work on this with a coach, it's the kind of thing that I love helping my clients with.

[00:14:43] Um, so have a look at my one-on-one coaching page on humane marketing. I also mentioned the marketing, like we're human. Uh, Program, aka the client Resonator, as being one product of my product slash service line. So that's [00:15:00] my flagship program to either build the foundation to market from within from the start.

[00:15:06] But it also applies to entrepreneurs who have been in business for several years, but feels like, feel like there's some kind of detachment from their business because they've not built it from the inside out. They've billed it from a need, you know, to pay the bills or from a need to serve a specific client, but they haven't started from who they are.

[00:15:32] Uh, and, uh, their values, their worldview. So, You are your business. That's why in the marketing, like we're human program, we start with you, with your passion, your why, and your personal power. Uh, of course, uh, it's based on the seven Ps of humane marketing, the ones we follow here on this podcast, and I run it live again this August, starting August 24th.

[00:15:58] So if this, [00:16:00] Gets you curious. Have a look at Humane Marketing slash program to see if this your, this is your next step, and make sure to read the testimonials and case studies to get a real feel for the transformation you can expect. Let's get on a call and talk about it like humans. Thanks so much for listening.

[00:16:23] You find the show notes of this episode at. Humane Marketing. Hm, 1 68. And on this beautiful page, you'll also find a series of free offers, such as my Saturday newsletter, the Humane Business Manifesto, and the free gentle confidence mini course, as well as my two books, marketing like We're Human. And selling like we're human.

[00:16:47] Thanks so much for listening and being part of a generation of marketers who care for yourself, your clients, and the planet. We are change makers before we are marketers, so go be the change you [00:17:00] want to see in the world. Speak soon.

In this week's episode of The Humane Marketing Show, we have the pleasure of speaking with Tom Greenwood about the concept of a Humane Web. Tom is the co-founder of Wholegrain Digital, a trailblazing digital agency that prioritizes sustainability as a Certified B Corp. Renowned for his expertise in business, design, and web technology's role in addressing environmental issues, Tom is also the author of the enlightening book, Sustainable Web Design. Throughout our thought-provoking conversation, we explore the meaning of a Humane Web, its connection to ethical design, and the crucial role website owners play in contributing to a more humane web. We delve into best practices for prioritizing user wellbeing while achieving marketing objectives, discuss the social and environmental impacts of AI, and highlight successful examples of organizations embracing the principles of the Humane Web. Tune in now to gain a fresh perspective on the future of digital marketing and web design.

In this thought-provoking episode we discuss about:

• How Tom's newsletter readers described a humane web and what Tom's definition is
• What humane web has to do with ethical design
• Best practices for website owner to do their part to contribute to a Humane Web
• The winners of a humane web: humans AND the planet
• The social and environmental impacts of AI
• How Tom sees the future of humane web
• and much more

[00:00:00] Sarah: Hello, humane marketers. Welcome back to the Humane Marketing Podcast, the place to be for the generation of marketers that cares. This is a show where we talk about running your business in a way that feels good to you, is aligned with your values, and also resonates with today's conscious customers because it's humane, ethical, and non-pushy.

[00:00:23] I'm Sarah z Croce, your hippie turn business coach for quietly rebellious entrepreneurs and marketing impact pioneer. Mama Bear of the Humane Marketing Circle and renegade author of marketing like we're human and selling like we're human. If after listening to the show for a while, you are ready to move on to the next level and start implementing and would welcome a community of like-minded, quietly rebellious entrepreneurs who discuss with transparency what.

[00:00:52] Works and what doesn't work in business, then we'd love to welcome you in our humane marketing circle. If you're picturing your [00:01:00] typical Facebook group, let me paint a new picture for you. This is a closed community of like-minded entrepreneurs from all over the world who come together once per month in a Zoom circle workshop to hold each other accountable and build their business in a.

[00:01:15] Sustainable way we share with transparency and vulnerability, what works for us and what doesn't work, so that you can figure out what works for you instead of keep throwing spaghetti on the wall and seeing what sticks. Find out more at humane.marketing/circle, and if you prefer one-on-one support from me.

[00:01:37] My humane business coaching could be just what you need, whether it's for your marketing, sales, general business building, or help with your big. Idea like writing a book. I'd love to share my brain and my heart with you together with my almost 15 years business experience and help you grow a sustainable business that is joyful and sustainable.

[00:01:58] If you love this podcast, [00:02:00] wait until I show you my mama bear qualities as my one-on-one client can find out more at humane.marketing/coaching. And finally, if you are a Marketing Impact pioneer and would like to bring Humane Marketing to your organization, have a look at my offers and workshops on my [email protected].

[00:02:30] Hello, friends. Welcome back to another episode on the Humane Marketing Podcast. Today's conversation fits under the P of People of the Humane Marketing Mandala. If you're a regular here, you kind of already know what I'm talking about. And these are the seven Ps of the Humane Marketing Mandala. And if this is your first time here and you're curious about those seven Ps of humane marketing, you can go to humane.marketing/.[00:03:00]

[00:03:00] One page, the number one and the word page, and download your one page marketing plan with the seven Ps of humane marketing. And this comes with seven email prompts to really help you reflect on these different PS for your business. So today I'm speaking with Tom Greenwood about a humane Web. When I first saw him, uh, talk about this in one of his newsletters, I was like, well, I just have to talk to Tom, but before you, I tell you a bit more about Tom.

[00:03:33] Allow me a moment to share that. I just. Open the doors again to my marketing like we're human, a k a, the Client Resonator program. So this is my flagship program. It's a three month program that is tightly linked actually to this podcast because it follows the same framework, the seven Ps of the Humane Marketing Mandala.

[00:03:57] It's a deep dive into these seven [00:04:00] Ps to help you discover who you are. What your passion is and then bring more of you to your marketing. Market from within, so to speak. So we're really kind of flipping the script and starting with ourselves rather than the usual marketing program that immediately goes to your ideal client, the avatar, and then focuses on, uh, techniques and strategies.

[00:04:26] We're starting with ourself first, so it's almost like a business. Or a personal development slash business development program. Uh, it's more than just marketing. It really is building the foundation for your life's work. And we start with passion, personal power, and then go into the outer. So we start with the inner and then go into the outer, the people, the product, the pricing, the promotion, and the partnership with others.

[00:04:56] We go deep in an intimate group and. [00:05:00] Really come out transformed with a business that you are truly aligned with. It's a hybrid program with a 20 to 30 minute video to watch each week. Uh, that shares a bit of the framework, the principles. And a lot of, uh, transparent information and kind of lived experience for, from myself.

[00:05:21] Uh, it comes also with a beautiful workbook, with journal prompts, and then we have a live group call on Zoom each week to go deeper. So we, I'm not teaching anything on these group calls. I we're just having the space together to go deeper, and that's why. It's such a transformational program because we really get to share and uh, and.

[00:05:46] Yeah, make it unique for each person. Who is it for? Well, whether you have one year, five years, or more than 10 years business experience, it's never too late to go back to create the [00:06:00] foundation and is instead of just a business, really create your life's work so you can truly market from. Who you are because that's when things flow freely is when you market from who you are.

[00:06:14] And the best is always to hear it from other participants and not just ha have it all from me. So have a look at humane.marketing/program. There are plenty of testimonials. And also a handful of in-depth case studies that really show you the transformation that people have gone through. Book a call with me now to discuss if this is the right next step for you at this point in your business.

[00:06:43] Again, it's starting in August. Uh, August 24th. I'm only running this live. Twice per week. So this is the last time, uh, this year it's a three month program, and yes, I would absolutely love to talk to you and see and find out [00:07:00] whether this is a good fit for you at this time. Okay with that, back to the P of People in today's episode.

[00:07:09] So Tom Greenwood is the co-founder of Whole Grain Digital, a certified B Corp and Green Trail Blazer. In the digital agency world, Tom is known for writing and speaking about how business design and web technology can be part of the solution. To end environmental issues and is the author of the book Sustainable Web Design.

[00:07:34] So in this, uh, thought-provoking episode, we discussed how Tom's newsletter readers described a humane web and what Tom's definition is of a humane web. What humane web has to do with ethical design, ethical web design. Best practices for website owners to do their part, to contribute to a [00:08:00] humane web, the winners of a humane web, humans and the planet, the social en and environmental impacts of ai.

[00:08:11] How Tom sees the future of Humane Web, and I guess also AI and so much more. Let's listen to Tom and this concept of a humane web, which to me just sounds delightful. Let's tune in. Hi Tom Sok. See you and hang out with you for a little while to talk all things humane, like I just said offline. Right.

[00:08:38] That's basically what we're here for. I heard you talking about Humane Web and I'm like, I gotta have him on the podcast. You're

[00:08:47] Tom: humane. Yeah. And I likewise. I was excited when you reached out and I was like, huh, humane Marketing, like, great. We're on the same page. Yeah, exactly.

[00:08:55] Sarah: So the, the. The way. Well, I've been on your email list [00:09:00] for a while, and then obviously when I saw you talking and actually asking readers about how a humane web would look like to them, uh, that's when you got my attention and I'm like, yeah, let's talk about this.

[00:09:16] So I'm curious, um, what kind of answers did you get to this question when you asked your readers?

[00:09:23] Tom: Yeah, it was really interesting and it, I mean, we got a lot of enthusiastic responses and it was, it was quite mixed. It sort of ranged from people talking about how um, basically like technology should be designed to like, respect humans in terms of like their privacy and their safety and, um, to make things more accessible in a sort of tangible ways to people with kind of maybe like a more like pie in the sky vision of like, A web that is like more personalized and it's actually like, like more like fragmented and [00:10:00] decentralized rather than this sort of like homogenized big tech kind of internet that, that we've come to.

[00:10:07] Um, and then other people talking about like more like the experience that we have as humans and that actually, what if it was more. You know, like a garden that you can, or a library, like a place that you can kind of step into and browse calmly, slowly, mindfully relax into like find beauty and inspiration rather than it being like this high paced kind of intense experience that much of, much of the internet's become.

[00:10:39] So it was really interesting just hearing kind of like that breadth of. Perspectives on like what that might mean.

[00:10:45] Sarah: Hmm. Yeah. So interesting. I, I love this image of either the library or the the garden and why not a library in a garden. Exactly. Yeah. That'd be even better. So what that means to me is, yeah, you, [00:11:00] you said it after like what we're experiencing is something so intense and probably, um, Yeah.

[00:11:09] It's more like the in our face experience where if you are going to a library, you are the one in control. You are the one who's going to look for information rather than just showing up and everybody's throwing information at you. Right. Is is that also what you Yeah. Exactly. Felt

[00:11:25] Tom: that's what happened?

[00:11:26] Yeah. Mm-hmm. That, that you are really in control of your own journey and, and it's your experience. For you to have and for you to lead rather than mm-hmm. You're kind of entering into these worlds where you're very much kind of led down a path. I mean, at best guided down a path at worst manipulated, you know, to perform certain actions.

[00:11:48] Um, Yeah. And sort of, yeah, put people back in the driving seat in control of their own experience, um, in more of a conscious way.

[00:11:56] Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. That's so much aligned with humane marketing [00:12:00] because it, it, in the end, pretty much everything on the web is some type of marketing now, you know? Yeah. It's like wherever you go, You, they want you to enter into a funnel and then basically control your mind and control everything you do.

[00:12:16] So it's, yeah, it's, it's very much the same in terms of humane marketing. It's like, well in, give the power back to the people. Right? Yeah. And it seems like that's the same, uh, idea here on, on Humane Web. So, so was that also your definition if you thought of it before? Or did you think of even something else, um, that you can add here?

[00:12:41] Tom: Yeah, I think, I think it was a, a mixture of a mixture of things, but I think, I mean, the whole exploration and, and it's still an exploration to be honest at this stage, but the whole exploration that, that some of us at Whole Grain are doing into this concept of a humane web really came from sort of a [00:13:00] frustration that the internet kind of in the early days, Did seem like something that was gonna be very democratic and, you know, allow people to have a voice and controller and experience and share information with each other and build communities and, and it has all of that potential.

[00:13:21] And yet more and more it feels like this thing where it's like it's, it's very much like a domain controlled by these big tech companies and where. You know, as you say, like we're we're manipulated into these funnels. It's like it's the web has become a web of funnels. Yeah. And, you know, and, and you enter into it kind of almost at your own risk.

[00:13:41] And, and it's not an equal relationship. You're very much like you're going in on their terms. They're doing things behind the scenes to manipulate you that you don't even, you're not even aware of. There's like legal terms that you're effectively agreeing to just by. Like visiting a site or [00:14:00] using an online service.

[00:14:01] Um, and then, and then, and then it's like, you know, there's the, also the fallout of like mental health and the fact that actually like, yeah, the internet should be serving us as humans, and yet you have this like, huge mental health crisis that's in par related to our relationship with digital technology and the internet.

[00:14:19] And, and it's like, well, something's really wrong here that it's. There are like big corporations that are making vast profits out of the web, but at the same time that it's not that there's not any good things have come from it for, you know, most of us, like we all get some benefit from it day to day, but like on some level it feels like this is, this relationship isn't working like it's unhealthy.

[00:14:42] Um, so what would it look like if we reimagine that and said, well, okay, let's kind of go back to the beginning. Take all of the. I guess take capitalism out of it for a minute and sort of say, well, like, let's just look at it as a technology. Like

[00:14:58] Sarah: what? Remind me, Tom, [00:15:00] what was the name of the, it's escaping me right now.

[00:15:03] Like when it first started, what did they call it? Um, Some term that I'm, I'm forgetting right now, but they actually said it, it's a conversation, you know, the web is a conversation. Um, yeah. So, so really, yeah. That's what you're saying. We need to go back to, right. To, to these early days of the

[00:15:24] Tom: internet.

[00:15:24] Exactly, exactly. Sort of like today's technology, but with yesterday's principles maybe. Yeah,

[00:15:32] Sarah: yeah. Yeah. So much so. Yeah, so true. It's, it's, it's almost like we've. Made such a big, yeah, we lost our way. We lost our way. It's, it's kind of like kids who are given, you know, the, the, the gadget and then they just like lose their way because they're so excited about this s gadget and all, all the things you can do with it, and it ends up going the wrong way.

[00:15:58] It ends up [00:16:00] going to almost like, Evil. Right? That's what we've done with this technology and, and or we, we can discuss whether it's you and I, it's definitely the, you know, the, there's always money behind it somehow now. Yeah. Where that was not the intent of, uh, the internet back in the days.

[00:16:18] Tom: Yeah. I think that's the thing that it's, there's, there's so much potential to make money by manipulating people that.

[00:16:27] In a way that you can't really do as easily in a physical environment. You know, like, you, like digital technology can kind of capture people for like, most of their waking hours. You know, like it's very addictive. You've got your phone with you like all the time. Um, it can ping you and like, you know, pull your attention back in when you start ignoring it in a way that like the physical world can't.

[00:16:49] And yeah. And likewise, it's very easy to do like sneaky things in terms of how you. How you manipulate people to perform certain actions or to think a certain [00:17:00] way in ways that if you were in a physical environment, would be a bit more like, I, I think just a bit more tangible for people to sort of see what's going on and think, Hmm, this doesn't feel quite right.

[00:17:10] I'm not sure I wanna shop here. Um, right. Um, You know, and even things like privacy terms, you know, that you kind of get sort of forced to like click a button to say like, I agree before you come in. But there's some like giant legal contract behind it that they know that nobody's gonna read. Whereas if you went into a shop, you enter the supermarket and they said, well, before you enter, like, please sign this 30 page contract.

[00:17:32] Yeah. You'd probably be like, nah, I, I'm not, I'm not gonna shop there. I'm gonna, I'm gonna go to the green grass. It's, you think about, it's insane. Yeah. Yeah. It is and it's very one-sided. It's sort of like, sign this or you can't come in. Um mm-hmm. So

[00:17:47] Sarah: what's the solution? You're working on a solution? Um, what

[00:17:53] Tom: is it?

[00:17:53] Well, to say we're working on a solution might be overstating it, but we're exploring what [00:18:00] alternatives might look like and I think, I think there are. Like, none of this is like necessary, you know, like we talked about kind of the early days of the web when it wasn't like this on the web. I think the early, you know, pioneers of the web, like Tim Burners, Lee didn't envision it becoming like this.

[00:18:17] No. Um, so I think inherently like the principal. Is that you could design and build digital services that don't treat people in this way. And start by actually thinking about like, how you serve their needs. What, what's really gonna be good for them as humans. And do it on the principle like you would've done like any kind of good business in the past where it's like, if we really serve people well, they'll keep coming back rather than if we, if we manipulate them and get 'em addicted.

[00:18:49] Um, Then they'll keep coming back. Um, and I do think like there's some challenges in that for certain types of business models where the business models are [00:19:00] inherently based on that principle. Um, you know, some of the social media giants for example. It's like that's I. That's what they're built upon. But on the other hand, I think the vision we're trying to create is that if we actually created beautiful online spaces that treat people well and that they love being in and where they can build real, meaningful connections with other human beings or, or have space to just explore and learn things and, and enjoy things kind of on their own terms that.

[00:19:30] Okay. They might not necessarily like, be able to compete head to head with, like Facebook for example. Um, on, but they're not trying to compete directly with Facebook. They're giving people an alternative. They're giving people a choice. It's like, go, you know, go and spend your time here because it respects you and it's a great place to be rather than go over there where you're being exploited.

[00:19:49] Um, so yeah, it's so like we are, we are not, I don't think we're ever gonna be, be in a position where we can say, look, hey, look, we've got this solution, but I think we can let help with that [00:20:00] conversation of exploring the principles and trying to embed them into some of our own work and trying to like, You know, experiment with them and see what works and see what doesn't.

[00:20:08] Sarah: And don't you think the change is gonna come from bottom up? Uh, not from the big ones. You know that they're not gonna change anything because their model works. It's exactly, it's not scarcity, uh, and addiction like you said. And so why would they change anything? Because the money keeps coming in. So they're not the ones who are going to change.

[00:20:28] It's, it's the smaller ones and also, Us, the clients, the customers who are just fed up, uh, with being abused and manipulated.

[00:20:38] Tom: Yeah, exactly. It's like the big tech companies have nothing. They have nothing to gain and everything to lose by, like, doing things in a more humane way, I think, which is really sad.

[00:20:48] And I think it's a kind of, probably a reflection more of the broader mm-hmm. Structure of our society and economy. Um, but equally like we have a, we do have a lot of [00:21:00] personal. Like power over our own destiny. Like we're not actually like hooked into any of these things. Like we can choose to go wherever we want on the internet.

[00:21:07] And um, and I think if people offer really humane alternatives, then hopefully, like a growing kind of number of people will start looking at those and thinking, yeah, okay, this feels like a better place to be. Totally.

[00:21:24] Sarah: And, and I think what I've actually seen in the marketing world is that, Even small, uh, companies, one person companies, entrepreneurs, since the only models we had were the big.

[00:21:39] Tech companies and the, you know, the, the ones that are basically manipulating everybody. This became the going model. Yeah. Everybody started using, even on the very small business level, using the same kind of, uh, you know, scarcity and, and manipulative approaches. Yeah. So over the last 20 years, um, [00:22:00] This just became the norm, right?

[00:22:02] That, yeah, it was just a given. If you were in business, that's the way you had to market and, and, and use technology and, and, and all that and all actually all the tech that I'm using in my business, you know, where I'm trying so hard to create a humane business, the tech, uh, so I'm talking like shopping carts or, or e-learning programs.

[00:22:26] It's all built on non-human, uh, principles. Yeah. It's all built on the idea. Let's get as many people in and seldom our crap. Yeah.

[00:22:37] Tom: Basically.

[00:22:38] Sarah: And it, and it's just really hard to actually use technology and yet doing in a, doing it in a humane way. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. It's really, really hard.

[00:22:49] Tom: I think one of the sort of, I guess sort of classically, one of the.

[00:22:54] The, the alternatives to that kind of hyper commercial model has in the, in the digital [00:23:00] space, has been the open source world, which is mm-hmm. You know, people building things with people for the people, um, and largely giving them away for free so that everybody can benefit from them. And I think that is probably where, like the solutions will come from.

[00:23:15] Um, I understand. Mm-hmm. But, but as you sort of. Highlighted, like even some of those things have gone more in that kind of commercial direction just because that's the way things are done and, and some of those open source projects, as brilliant as they might be, have some sort of like commercial affiliation that sort of funds some of that community work.

[00:23:36] And so the way that the projects are led has a bias towards like feeding that like kind of. Parent company or, um, whatever it might be, right? But, but I do think like that the, in pr in principle, the sort of the open source world is probably like the best, um, [00:24:00] place to, to get like a groundswell of, um, kind of bottom up change.

[00:24:07] Sarah: I agree. Because it's also. You know, it's the people with the same values who come to create the solution and just give and, you know, know and trust and somewhere the money will come from. Yeah. But it doesn't mean that I have to exploit, um, uh, clients or, or potential, uh, customers. Yeah,

[00:24:27] Tom: exactly. Yeah.

[00:24:29] Sarah: So, so far we've talked about basically, uh, the win-win of the, the client and the seller, right?

[00:24:38] Um, What I talk about and also what you were talking about is also, uh, a third win, which is the win for the planet. Yeah. Um, so talk to us how a humane web, and then maybe you can also talk a little bit about, um, web design, because that's also, uh, part of your expertise. Where is the [00:25:00] planet stand right now and how do we make it a winner as well in this

[00:25:06] Tom: equation?

[00:25:07] Yeah. So the, the environmental aspect is uh, something that's sort of, I think been left out of the conversation in the digital world largely until quite recently. And, and I think that's probably for a variety of reasons, partly because digital technology is relative relatively new in terms of its impact on our lives.

[00:25:28] Um, but also because a lot of the environmental impact is sort of out of sight and out of mind. Um, You don't have like a chimney or an exhaust pipe on your computer and you know, it's sort of, it, it's a lot of, it's behind the scenes and we use terms like virtual, um, and the cloud as if like, the internet doesn't really exist, but it, it is a huge physical system.

[00:25:52] You know, telecoms, networks that span the entire planet, um, satellites in space, like thousands of huge data [00:26:00] centers around the world. Billions of devices connected to the networks. So, If you take it as one big machine, it is the biggest machine that humans have ever created. And, and it consumes a huge amount of electricity.

[00:26:13] You know, roughly the amount of electricity is the whole of the United Kingdom. Um, if you took it as one thing and the United Kingdom is like kind of one of the 10 biggest economies in the world. So that's, that's pretty crazy when you think about it. And. When you, uh, when you put that in terms of carbon emissions, which is essentially the emissions of producing all of that energy, um, it's, it's estimated generally somewhere between two and 4% of global carbon emissions, which is a lot because like aviation, which a lot of people think, you know, aviation's a serious problem, which it is.

[00:26:49] Aviation is about 2% of global cognitions. Global shipping is about 2%. Um, I think steel is about, steel production is about 7%. So when you put, [00:27:00] you know, put that in context of basically the internet being somewhere in the range of two to 4%, um, and growing rapidly, especially with like the advent of, of, of AI and machine learning.

[00:27:10] Um, it's, it's something that needs to be talked about. Um, and it hasn't really been talked about much until like the last two, three years really. Yeah, that's

[00:27:25] Sarah: completely how I feel. I feel like this has just, yeah, probably emerged. Three years ago for me, where before I was like, well, I'm a virtual, you know, business owner, so I don't create any, any kind of problems.

[00:27:40] And, and then starting to realize, okay, so, you know, there's all these different players that actually do, uh, impact how much carbon emissions I have. And, and you know, this was a, a whole. Transitions switching to, uh, a green or a greener host and, [00:28:00] and like making my website lighter and still working on that.

[00:28:03] It's, it's like things that. You never think about just uploading, you know, two megabyte pictures on your website. Yeah. And then when you start to realize, wait a minute, they have to be hosted somewhere. And the, uh, and the server obviously runs on electricity, so every time you know this, this is creating carbon emissions.

[00:28:24] So, so yeah. Tell us about ethical, um, you know, web design. Like what, what does that. Kind of just maybe a few really pragmatic tips that people can do right now to Yeah. Work on their website on, or at least become aware of that. Yeah.

[00:28:44] Tom: You mean specifically from the environmental perspective? Yeah. Mm-hmm.

[00:28:47] Yeah. So I mean, I think the, the, the way I find most helpful to think about it is that there's, there's a lot of waste on the internet. Um, And waste isn't good for [00:29:00] anybody, like any form of waste. And, but specifically in the internet, that waste generally is if you're wasting data, then you're wasting, you're wasting energy, um, which is bad for the environment, but it also has other.

[00:29:14] Kind of commercial impacts and user experience impacts and so on. But that waste can come in a number of forms. Like first of all, like you just mentioned, you know, like having files that are just unnecessarily large, like image files, video files that are either like, maybe they're not required at all, but even if they are required, maybe they're, um, which is larger than they need to be, maybe they're, um, they're not optimized well, maybe they're not in like the most efficient file format.

[00:29:42] Um, so. Looking at things like that. Um, things like tracking scripts. Tracking scripts can like be more, they can use up more data sometimes than like an entire, the actual webpage that you see. The stuff behind the scenes. And this comes into like the humane aspect as well. [00:30:00] The stuff behind the scenes that's like harvesting all of your data.

[00:30:02] Um, they can actually be more code in there than there is in the actual, like, visible webpage that you're viewing.

[00:30:09] Sarah: So you mean like Facebook pixel tracking, that kind of stuff.

[00:30:13] Tom: Yeah. All that kind of stuff. All that kind of like ad personalizations, advert, you know, advertising scripts and mm-hmm. Things like that.

[00:30:20] Um, wow. And the, and, and, and that's, I, I think that's kind of an interesting one to think about because it's, It's using energy in a number of places and not for your benefit. So you've got basically, like the advertising scripts have to be stored somewhere, like in a data center. Then they have to be sent over the internet, which uses energy to get to you.

[00:30:43] Um, then they use energy on your device, which is your electricity that you paid for, um, to like spy on you or manipulate you by like, you know, manipulating the content. Um, and then they take the data, they. They've, they've [00:31:00] harvested about you and then use more energy to ship it back over the internet where it gets stored and analyzed in a data center.

[00:31:06] Um, so, so like things like that where there's like, I mean things like that. There's a, there's a, there's a, there's a relationship between the environmental and there's like human aspect. But I think if you're designing something, actually being really mindful about tracking scripts is really important.

[00:31:22] Cuz sometimes a lot of websites aren't even necessarily doing it. For good reasons. It's just like, oh, I've got a website so I'll stick Google Analytics on it. Um, and Google's really benefiting from that by getting all of that data. But you might not even, some people don't even really look at that data.

[00:31:37] So I think things like that are good to think about. Also, from the environmental point of view, like where you host your website, you mentioned moving your website to a hosting provider that has a commitment to powering their data centers with renewable energy. That's kind of a. I'm not gonna say it's an easy win because depends whether like [00:32:00] how easy you find it to actually migrate your website, but um, usually they really help you with that.

[00:32:04] Yeah, they normally it will help you like at do the migration. So it can be, it can be a low hanging fruit to reduce the environmental impact. Um, and I think just from a content creation point of view, just sort of being mindful about, um, like creating. Easy user journeys for people so they can find what they're looking for easily not creating unnecessary content, um, just for the sake of like search engines, for example, but actually making sure that your content is really tailored to humans and, and, and you're not doing things like putting in images of like just, um, like stock photography of people pointing at a whiteboard because you feel like you need to fill a space on the page.

[00:32:47] You know, just be really mindful about. Like justifying the existence of everything. Um, if you can justify why it's there, then, you know, great. Um, but if you can't, then, um, obviously if [00:33:00] in doubt, leave it out. Um, it's sort of a simple mantra to the identifying and eliminating waste.

[00:33:08] Sarah: It's so interesting because basically also here you're saying, let's go back to simplicity and, and basics and.

[00:33:15] You know, simple design rather than cluttered, obnoxious, you know, too much content design.

[00:33:22] Tom: Yeah. Yeah. And, and I think that's e just sort of, again, going back to the human perspective, that can be much easier on the mind as well. Yeah. Um, it's

[00:33:31] Sarah: relaxing. It's more relaxing, right. Than Yeah. Having much content

[00:33:37] Tom: on it all the, all the time.

[00:33:38] Exactly. I think, you know, there's a lot of problems with just sort of overstimulation, um, On the internet. So, so I think that there's a, again, another synergy between sort of designing for the environment and designing for humans there.

[00:33:52] Sarah: Yeah. You, uh, just a minute ago, you, you kind of addressed ai, uh, [00:34:00] And, and I, um, there's another great article that you actually published with a conversation between you and chat c p t about, um, the impact of ai, uh, to the environment and, and social, uh, impact and all of that.

[00:34:17] Um, yeah, tell us a little bit about that. Uh, in, in, just in general, how AI impacts all of what we just

[00:34:26] Tom: discussed. Yeah, so I, it was, I thought it would be really interesting just to sort of a ask an AI about the potential risks of AI and see, to see what it came back with. Um, I thought maybe I'll learn something, maybe it would teach me something.

[00:34:44] I don't know. Um, maybe it will be biased. Um, um, I was actually like sort of pleasantly surprised that its answers seemed quite thorough and quite. Quite honest, um, in identifying that there is [00:35:00] like potentially a huge energy cost to AI in terms of just how much computing, um, power it needs, um, both to train the models and run the models.

[00:35:11] Um, I think it gave me a figure of to train G P D three required, I think 500. CPU years, which is effectively like running a cpu, running a, running a computer for 500 years to train one model. Um, so it was, it was quite honest in, in that it did also highlight that there's potential benefits, um, from an environmental point of view.

[00:35:33] If you can use that AI then to help humanity solve. Environmental problems and make other things more efficient, which I think is absolutely true. Um, but it also highlighted that the flip side of that is that it's all about what we choose to do with it. Like you could choose to use AI to like, to, to extract more fossil fuels from, from the ground, which is what the fossil fuel companies are using it for.

[00:35:57] Um, and in fact, there was a big conference, I [00:36:00] think run by Amazon. Um, Specifically about that, like inviting all the fossil fuel companies to, to see what, how they could, how they could like, fi, discover and extract more oil. Um, wow. So, so that, that's kind of interesting that it, it like chat, G B T itself highlighted that.

[00:36:19] Um, but then it also, like I asked it about sort of social impacts and it did, it did sort of, Quite honestly, like, explain that like, yeah, there's potential risk to people's jobs, um, in terms of being replaced by ai. There's risks of bias. There's risks of, um, big temp big tech companies, um, having more and more power because essentially like whoever has control of the AI has more power over a society and the, and the potential to like manipulate public opinion and, and potentially even influence democracy, which is something that it did.

[00:36:57] Bring up. So, um, [00:37:00] yeah, I think it was quite well rounded I felt, in terms of what it highlighted. And of course, it's not really a, it's not a person. And that's the thing that it's like really hard to like get your head around when you start doing something, like trying to have a conversation with it. It's like, well, hard to like

[00:37:13] Sarah: it or dislike it, you know?

[00:37:15] Yeah,

[00:37:16] Tom: right. I've, I've set myself a rule that I'm like, when if I did, you know, like when I did that, To not say thank you cause it sounds really simple, but as soon as, but you ask a question and you get an answer back that sounds like a human wrote you a message back. Right. And it's really easy to slip into that thing of thinking there's a person on the other side when there's not.

[00:37:37] Um, and I don't know if you've seen the film X Mcna. Um, I haven't. It, it's, it, I mean, I think it's, I only watched it earlier this year because it sort of felt like this is the time in history where, The science fiction is suddenly catching up. Yeah. Like, like real life is mirroring science fiction and [00:38:00] Yeah.

[00:38:00] It's, it's a film about, and like an, an AI that's been developed and um, and humans building relationships with it and the, and the boundaries between what's human and what's not being blurred and how that. That's a slippery slope, basically. Um, I won't spoil it for you, but Okay. But I, yeah, it's a, i I, it's a, it's a fascinating and very well made film, um, on this topic.

[00:38:30] Yeah,

[00:38:31] Sarah: I'll look it up and I'll definitely link to, to that article, the interview with, um, chat G p t, um, as we're kind of. Coming to close here. I I'm, I'm just, I always feel like, oh, so it's such a heavy topic. Right? And, um, when we started recording, um, offline, I told you I tried just to focus on the positive things.

[00:38:58] So let's, let's do that [00:39:00] here as well. How do you see the future of Humane Web and, and what can we do to, you know, kind of counter effect the big tech and. The big companies and, and even if it's just in our own little bubble, but at least we're creating that vision and who knows what will come out of it, but at least we're living in that vision already.

[00:39:25] What can we do? And, and then Yeah. Uh, from there, how do you see it evolve? Yeah,

[00:39:30] Tom: sure. I, I think the main thing we can do is first, first of all, like stop and think about like what we. What we need as humans and how the technology can serve us, rather than the standard model now, which is sort of like, how do, how do we serve the technology?

[00:39:49] Um, and you, you know, you spoke about it earlier about how. We go down this route of like, now there's like an established model of like how the [00:40:00] internet works and how the business models on the internet work being like those big tech companies. And so there's just a natural inclination to mirror that and just copy it.

[00:40:10] And I think the, the best thing we can do is actually just stop and think, look inside ourselves about like, what would it look like if it was really serving my needs and serving the needs of of others. And actually just have the confidence to try to do things differently and not just copy the, kind of the standard template of how things are done these days.

[00:40:32] Um, and I think if more and more people do that and. And importantly, more and more people share that and tell the story of how they're thinking about it and why they're doing things differently. Um, I think that's really powerful cuz then it can create that sort of like ground up change. Um, both in the, the way that people are thinking about the internet as well as the way that people are interacting with it.

[00:40:58] Sarah: Yeah, 100%. [00:41:00] And, and that's definitely what we're trying to do here, and I know you are as well, and, and. You might think, because what we're seeing is the big tech everywhere, right? Mm-hmm. But the more you kind of are in these circles, the more other little circles you discover and you're like, wow, there's actually people like us everywhere.

[00:41:21] Yeah, exactly. So that always gives me hope. I'm like, well, two years ago I didn't know about Tom Greenwood, and now I know that you've been working on this for years and years, and so. You know, there's, there's millions of us and that, that gives me hope. So I, I, uh, I couldn't agree more with you to just kind of.

[00:41:41] You said stop and, um, kind of step into the confidence of doing things differently. And I think yeah, that is key because it is scary to, you know, not do what everybody else is doing. Um, So, yeah, if, even if it's just, you know, for your website, [00:42:00] and that's where again, uh, I'm gonna go back to my website and, and check that I don't have any kind of tracking code in there because Yeah.

[00:42:08] I, I don't need it. Right. So, um, definitely, uh, yeah,

[00:42:13] Tom: to start exactly, start from where you are and, and, and ask yourself questions about like, what it is that you are doing. If you are creating things on the internet, um, and. And just see where it, see where it leads, see what other people are doing. Yeah. Um, I mean, even on the tracking script one, like there are alternatives.

[00:42:32] Like there's one called Plausible, for example, um, which is like, it gives you some data about how, like how many people are using your website, what, like what countries they come from, what web browsers they use, what pages they visit. But it is completely anonymized. It's very, very lightweight, energy efficient.

[00:42:51] Um, Script. So there are some like kind of, there are alternatives to some of these like big tech [00:43:00] solutions that are actually trying to balance the sort of the human and the environmental side as well as providing some useful functionality it for when people do need it. Um, yeah. So yeah, it's worth looking for those as well.

[00:43:12] Thank

[00:43:13] Sarah: you. I, I would really encourage listeners also to sign up to your newsletter, so please share with us where people can find you and your newsletter and all your other good work.

[00:43:24] Tom: Yeah, sure. So the newsletter, I'm, I'm very excited. This, um, just past 6,000 subscribers yesterday. Um, it's, it's called Kii Green.

[00:43:34] Um, if you Google Kii Green Newsletter, you, you should find it. Um, and, and it's basically a monthly newsletter about like, Greening the internet, um, but in a very holistic way. So, you know, we talk about things like humane web as well. Um, and we started it about three years ago thinking that nobody would be interested.

[00:43:53] So to suddenly like now be like, oh wow, there's like 6,000 people subscribe to this. That for me is like a source of optimism. [00:44:00] Um, again, that that

[00:44:01] Sarah: means that there's all these people everywhere, right? And saying, yeah, me too. I'm in.

[00:44:06] Tom: Exactly. Mm-hmm. Exactly. The, the, like, I think sometimes we. We don't realize that there's a lot of people out there that are thinking like we are thinking, or, or maybe they're thinking differently from we're thinking, but they're like, they really care about making things better.

[00:44:20] Um, and we just don't know that they're out, they're out there. Um, right. So when we have things that kind of bring these voices together, I think that's really powerful. Mm-hmm. Um, so yeah, so the Curiously Green Newsletter, um, I mean, you can find me on LinkedIn, that's Tom Greenwood who runs Whole Grain Digital.

[00:44:36] There's lots of Tom Greenwoods, but I'm, I'm, I'm that one. Um, And I also have a, um, I also have a, a personal newsletter about sustainable business on CK called Oxymoron, um, which you can look up on ck Um, yeah, so I guess they're the. They're, they're the key places to find me. And you have a book, right? I do have a book, yeah.

[00:44:59] Yeah. I always [00:45:00] forget to mention that. Yeah. There you go. So I always have a book, um, about sustainable web design called Sustainable Web Design. Um, you can, you can get it direct from publisher, uh, which is a book apart.com, or it's now available as of about two weeks ago in a lot of bookshops. Um, so you could find it on Amazon and other kind of online bookstores as well.

[00:45:22] Sarah: Wonderful. Thank you so much for sharing that. I always ask one last question here to every, uh, guest, and that is, what are you grateful for today, this week, this season?

[00:45:36] Tom: To be honest, I, I am grateful for the fact that like we live in a world where we can have these sorts of conversations. You know, like we have the freedom to think and, and share ideas and, you know, even if not everything is.

[00:45:52] Perfect. And not everything's always trending in the direction we wanted to. Like the fact that we have the opportunity to try and like do [00:46:00] something about it and connect with, with other people. Trying to do so is, is, is a wonderful thing, um, which I'm very grateful for.

[00:46:09] Sarah: Yeah. I agree and I'm grateful for the work you are doing and and your team, so

[00:46:17] Tom: thank you.

[00:46:17] Sarah: Let's keep it up. Yep. So much. Thanks so much for being here, Tom. I hope you feel motivated and I. Inspired to create a humane web together. I highly recommend you sign up to Tom's newsletter. You'll find [email protected]. You can also, as Tom suggested to connect with him on LinkedIn. You find the show notes of this [email protected] slash 1 67, and on this beautiful page, you'll also find a series of free offers, such as my Saturday newsletter, the Humane Business Business Manifesto, [00:47:00] and the free gentle confidence mini course, as well as my two books, marketing like we're Human and Selling like we're human.

[00:47:08] Thanks so much for listening and being part of a generation of marketers who cares for yourself, your clients, and the planet. We are change makers before we are marketers, so go be the change you want to see in the world. Speak soon.

In today's episode, we have the honor of speaking with Jeffrey Shaw, an author and advocate for self-employed business owners. Jeffrey is not only the author of the "LINGO" and "The Self-Employed Life," but also the host of the popular podcast with over two-million downloads, and the founder of the Self-Employed Business Institute. In this episode, we delve into the concept of the Self-Employed Ecosystem, encompassing personal development, business strategies, and daily habits. We explore the Vision Paradox, Jeffrey's unique "Hug Marketing" approach, the power of trust in something bigger than oneself, and the essential daily habits that help us navigate the uncontrollable. Let's uncover the keys to success in the self-employed world.

In this episode, we talk about:

• The Self-Employed Ecosystem which includes Personal Development, Business Strategies and Daily Habits
• The Vision Paradox: how to not self-sabotage and be disappointed when we don't achieve our goals
• Jeffrey's 'Hug Marketing' approach
• Trusting in something bigger than you
• and other daily habits that help us manage the uncontrollable

[00:00:00] Sarah: Hey, Jeffrey, so good to have you back on the podcast, even if it's a different version of the podcast. I'm so happy to

[00:00:09] Jeffrey intro: have you here. I'm glad to be here with you as always. Thank you.

[00:00:12] Sarah: Thanks. Um, I'm so excited for this conversation. Uh, you're coming out with a, you came out with a second book, um, so we're gonna mainly focus on that, but.

[00:00:25] You're kind of like a, a crowd favorite here at Humane Marketing cuz I talk about you and my programs, um, and just this idea of the lingo and the language and ideal clients. It's a big topic for us. So, um, yeah, I wanna kind of give that credit as well and, and just, uh, remind everybody who hasn't read the lingo book, uh, yet.

[00:00:48] That is also from Jeffrey Shaw. So, Anything you wanna just quickly say about lingo before we mm-hmm. Maybe also how it's still relevant and related of course, to your second book. [00:01:00]

[00:01:00] Jeffrey intro: Yeah. It's been interesting, uh, particularly as an author and I, I know you can appreciate this too, that. Uh, so after my second book was out, it was out for quite a number of months and I was heavily promoting it and talking about it, and of course, so excited about the, the, the topic of the self-employed life and all the aspects of it.

[00:01:16] Uh, my editor of Lingo, uh, at one point, she sent a message to me, said, uh, have you forgotten about your firstborn? Because I realized that I was so focused on talking about the new thing. You know, I, I had set aside talking about lingo, and that's one thing, I mean, lesson learned for those of us that are in business for ourselves is that, uh, we are visionaries and creators and often we can move on to the next thing and not necessarily integrate the previous.

[00:01:41] Um, but since she said that and pointed out to me, I've been much more, uh, aware of the integration between the two because, you know, really, and in so many ways, I've actually gained respect from my book lingo. In the importance of working with your ideal clients, and maybe it's a little bit of a, you know, post [00:02:00] pandemic effect in that none of us wanna waste time anymore, and I, at, at the core of working with our ideal clients is the benefit of, well, I guess it's, you know, you get to choose that.

[00:02:12] The benefit is to you as an individual for me. The number one reason I only want to work with my ideal clients is because of the satisfaction I receive watching people, uh, their businesses grow exponentially. Mm-hmm. And to me, the only way your business really grows exponentially is if you work only with your ideal clients and you're not wasting your time trying to.

[00:02:34] Prove your value to people or trying to make people happy that you will never fully make happy. Um, and I just feel like there's somewhat of an emotional response to the, the time in which we've all been struggling through for the last few years to say, I don't wanna waste my life hours on anything other than what brings me joy and what impacts people.

[00:02:54] And I think it's, there's more reason now than ever to read lingo and to really [00:03:00] focus on only attracting and working with your ideal clients.

[00:03:03] Sarah: Yeah, I couldn't agree more. Um, I, I just recently put out on, on the blog, um, a long, really long, um, blog post about, uh, humane Marketing words, and it reminded me of lingo and I'm like, went back to certain passages of it because, Of the importance of words.

[00:03:23] Right. And in humane marketing, it's all about words. I, I tell people, look, you can use similar tactics, but if you use nicer and kinder words, then that makes all the difference. Mm-hmm. And so that also that, um, Part of lingo, yes, there's the ideal client, but then there's the importance of language, right?

[00:03:45] The title and gives it all away. It's like the importance of the language your clients, uh, speak is, is so key. And, um, as, as we're gonna go into you, you have, um, your. Language as well that [00:04:00] you then use in, in the new book and where you talk about marketing. Um, so you came up with a new term for marketing, which I love.

[00:04:07] So let's get, let's get into the, the new book, right? Yeah. Um, well

[00:04:12] Jeffrey intro: at least stay with what you said for a moment. Cause that's so important for the Humane marketing society or community that you've built is, um, the energy of words. You know, if I could go back, as we always do, right, we always want to, you know, think about what we would add differently to the.

[00:04:26] Books we've written, and if I could add to lingo, and perhaps at some point there will be a second version of it, a revised version of it, which we are, I mean, I kicking around the idea of, because really one of the things I'd like to stress, more importantly it's in the book, but I think I'd like to stress more, is the energy of the words, right?

[00:04:43] It's one thing to use the right words to speak the lingo of your ideal customers, but I think also we need, and especially in the world of humane marketing, Really what you need to focus on is the energy of the words, because you're right, you can be saying the exact same thing, but the energy by which you're [00:05:00] communicating it with has everything to do with how it comes across.

[00:05:03] And if I could say there's been one really huge, significant difference in business over my 40 year career is that people today and have for a number of years now make a decision based on how they energetically feel about a business more than ever before. Right. It used to be, or something I say in my keynote is that it's a bit of a wake up call that we no longer get hired for being the best at what we do.

[00:05:30] We get hired because people like who we are. Right. And that is the biggest change because I've been in business, you know, over my 40 years. In the eighties and nineties you get hired cuz you were the best in your field. At that time. I was 100% a portrait photographer, affluent families. And I got hired because I was considered to be the best photographer for those families.

[00:05:52] Not the best photographer amongst all photographers, but I was probably the best photographer for affluent families. I really understood them. I understood how to craft the [00:06:00] artwork for their homes. Um, I used to listen to my clients talk about other best qualified people they hired, like their interior designers, their landscape designers, and they would talk about how difficult they were to work with, but they were the, they were the name to have, right?

[00:06:17] I. You won't get away with that today. Mm-hmm. Pe. PE today, people don't hire you because you're considered the best in your field. They also have to feel good about doing business with you. There's an energy that you're communicating in your humane marketing that makes people want to do business with you.

[00:06:33] They will, to some degree. Excuse that you're new. And that you're, you're new in business, you're new in this skill, skillset, or that you may not be considered the best in your field, but they like you better than the other people in your field, and they will do business. That is the biggest change in business I've seen in my 40 years is that.

[00:06:52] We're getting hired because of how people feel about us, and we see, we see this the opposite of it in big companies all the time. How many think about how many [00:07:00] brands people are walking away from because the c e O said something stupid, or you found out that the leadership team was not treating the employees well, or you found out about the political ambitions of a company and how quickly people that disagree with those feelings abandon the brand.

[00:07:19] It happens so quickly. Mm-hmm. I, I love, and I know you would too, for your community of humane marketers, like, I love doing business in a world where people are making decisions, whether work with us based on how they feel about us. That, that to me is exciting.

[00:07:33] Sarah: Yeah. And it, it really shows how the emotional intelligence of people and the consciousness has, you know, really increased over the last year.

[00:07:42] Yeah. So not year, years. So, Totally agree with you. It's this emotional connection that it is almost like there should be a book just about that, right? It's like, how do you create an emotional connection? What I say is bring more of you, uh, to your [00:08:00] marketing, right? It's this humanness and, and yet, I was just in a networking event this morning and it feels like everybody is doing the same spiel.

[00:08:08] You know? It's like you just come off, yeah, take off the mask. Just be you. You know how weird and awkward that might be.

[00:08:17] Jeffrey intro: And you're, you're a podcast host and I'm sure you get pitched plenty. And I, there are these trends to the pitches that come in that all start off the exact same way. And I'm wondering, okay, who's the latest guru who led a course on how to pitch yourself as a podcast guest?

[00:08:31] And everybody's following it verbatim. There's nothing human about that. I mean, literally, people have to realize that, like for people like you and I as podcasts, I get about 24 pitches a day. Yeah. More than half of them will start off exactly the same way. And, you know, I listened to episode so-and-so, or then the six months from now that that rhythm will, that style will change.

[00:08:54] And I know there's somebody out there that everybody seems to be following the advice of. Mm-hmm. And they just, it just, [00:09:00] you don't stand out that way. Mm-hmm. It always comes back to the term. I use Sarah to describe how I. The, the internal feeling I experience when I know that I'm coming from my auth, authentic self.

[00:09:13] And my truth is I refer to it as dropping in. Yeah. I, I just, I have found in myself and I encourage everyone to kind of dig for that place in themselves where they can, they drop into their truth. And stop doing things in business because everybody else is doing it that way. Stop doing things in business because somebody told you statistically that's what works.

[00:09:35] Or this, you know, listen to it. I'm not saying ignore it, but use or have a help or have a filter of discernment so you can decide, does that work for you? Does it feel right to you? And then have a place in yourself that you can drop into to say, this is me. This is who, what I stand for. This is who I, who I want to represent in business.

[00:09:58] And then market in [00:10:00] that way, speak to people that way. And I feel like the, the energy of the truth comes through so clearly that people want to do business with you. Yeah.

[00:10:09] Sarah: And I, and I feel like that's it. We dropped right into the book. Right. Because that's what, what your book is all about. It's, it's, it's about this mix between, and in, in a way, my book is kind of similar.

[00:10:22] It's a mix between personal development and, and business strategy. And you bring in the. The daily habits and I, I think one of the daily habits is trust. And, and that's what this dropping in is. And, and in a way, dropping in is also kind of tuning out the rest, you know? Yes. It's like dropping in and you're just like, no, I don't wanna hear anybody

[00:10:42] Jeffrey intro: else.

[00:10:43] And that's, that is true. It is really hard. It is really hard. And that is, again, I, I always say I teach as I teach my students in the Self-Employed Business Institute. I say all the time, I teach from being in the trenches. Right, because that's all I know. I've, I've been self-employed my entire life. It's the only world I've, I've never [00:11:00] had a traditional job.

[00:11:01] I've never received a paycheck from anybody. Right. So I teach from in the trenches and I try to drop into the truth of that so that I can really help our students in the business institute. Um, and that, what you just said and described really, Is so true of being self-employed in that it is such a duality in that, like I said, don't, don't shut off what you're the possibilities of learning and what you see other people doing, but you do need this, what I refer to as a filter of discernment so you can filter out what's useless to you.

[00:11:37] Keep in a reservoir, what could be useful to you, and then drop into yourself. So, which, like you said, you're kind of shutting off everything else, so you drop into yourself to decide what has value to you and what you wanna do with it, and what your truth is. I, I don't think it is possible, particularly in a world where we're inundated with so much information, um, and [00:12:00] nor would I recommend.

[00:12:01] Shutting off the information that comes in. I think it's very, you know, you want to, you want to expose yourself to as much as you can, but you do need a filter of discernment to decide what has value to you and then drop into your truth and how you most want to communicate to people and what your authentic truth is.

[00:12:18] Sarah: Yeah. The thing is, and I'm sure you've seen that as well, and it's your experience maybe as well, seeing others doing that is like, if we go into business, we just immediately wanna go into the doing and the marketing and the Instagram posts and all of that. Right? And so what you are saying, and I'm, I'm kind of saying as well, is like, well, the personal development part, which is.

[00:12:44] Finding out what your truth is, finding out your values and your, you talk about personal power or, um, yeah. Similar words like that as well is just so important and yet most people just wanna skip ahead and go to the next thing.

[00:12:59] Jeffrey intro: Yeah. [00:13:00] We're, I actually have a, I have a podcast on my own show, uh, that I'll be recording in a couple of hours and, um, and I, I, in the intro, which I was working on a, a bit ago, that.

[00:13:12] Because I've really been thinking about this a lot. I use the term ceilings a lot. Mm-hmm. And I've realized that I've used the word ceilings to replace limited mindsets where most people are talking about limited mindsets. I've come to call them ceilings because I actually like, again, coming from that inde trenches approach, I like the realistic feeling of a ceiling, because especially if everybody else is gonna talk about them as limited mindsets, the more often we hear a term, the more often it starts becoming white noise.

[00:13:38] Right. Um, I think that's what's happened with the topic of fear. You know, fear has become this. Fear and imposter syndrome are two that have now become such big buckets. Everything that everybody experiences gets thrown into those buckets. Oh, this is, you know, I have fear. It's like, are you sure you have fear?

[00:13:57] Right. I'm working, I'm working on my next book, which will be out the [00:14:00] fall of 2024, and it's about self-doubt for high achievers. Mm-hmm. And one of the things I really challenge in this book is the notion that, People just write, oh, I have imposter syndrome. And I'm like, are you sure it's imposter syndrome or is it self-doubt?

[00:14:14] There's a difference, you know, but it's amaz. Every time I bring up the topic of self-doubt, people compare it to imposter syndrome. I'm like, to me, there is a very distinguishable difference between them, which I talk about in the book. Don't wanna quite reveal too much about it yet, but, um, there's a different, but the problem is, is that these, these, these things we talk about become like rote language, fear, imposter syndrome.

[00:14:37] And the more we talk about them, it becomes white noise. And I think that's kind of what's happened with limited mindsets, right? You know, people talk limited mindsets, it just toss around. And I'm like, well, let's be real about limited mindsets. There are ceilings and a ceiling is like something that's sitting on or close to the top of your head that you're not.

[00:14:53] You know, you're, you have no space above you for, so the reason why both you and I have this see such [00:15:00] importance on this, the work of personal development is I refer to personal development as raising the ceiling the way, the only way that I know for anyone to be truly be successful and actionable and applying action and business strategies.

[00:15:16] The only way I know that those things can be successful is if you create the space. Above your head through personal development for those things to work. So I'll give you a sp a specific idea. One of the ceilings I talk about all the time, uh, to my students is the deserving ceiling. Mm-hmm. I don't care how much hard work you put into growing your business, I.

[00:15:39] And how much strategy you apply and how many seminars you you attend, and how many, you know, new and latest social media trends, you hop out. I don't care how many of anything you apply, if you don't raise the ceiling by which of which you think you deserve, you're not going to get more. Right. If you still have a deserving [00:16:00] ceiling on top of your head that you only deserve this much abundance in life, if you only deserve this much goodness, if you only deserve this much money, if you're hung up on that, that ceiling, I don't care how much work you put in, you've capped off by, by it being a ceiling, you've already capped off the results.

[00:16:18] The only way you can make those strategies and the effort you apply work is you have to first do the personal development work to really know you deserve more, and then you've created this space and then there's a place for all that hard work to fit. And that is why, to me, personal development is just critically important, uh, as a step before the hard work.

[00:16:41] Sarah: Yeah. Oh yeah. I think you really talked about a, a topic that is Yeah, like whenever I talk about the P of pricing, which really has to do with money and deserving and re receiving, right? That's like one of the most, uh, listened to episodes. So, uh, this [00:17:00] one here, this conversation is on, is, uh, under the P of Personal Power.

[00:17:05] Which I feel like is very fitting as well, because basically, um, what you're saying is we need to step into our personal power and, and, and then Yeah. Be ready to receive. And, and, and that's what personal development is all about in my opinion as well. Right. And, and then really also accepting that. Or kind of like realizing just because we are stepping into that power, that does not gonna mean that we're gonna abuse our power, but that we are using it in a, in a nice and gentle and humane way.

[00:17:41] Right?

[00:17:42] Jeffrey intro: Yeah. I think that's, that's so important that you just brought that up. Cause I, yeah, in the book lingo actually, Uh, qualify right in the beginning that this is not about manipulation, right? Understanding someone's lingo is not about using that power for evil. It's not meant to be. Uh, but it's so powerful that I felt like I [00:18:00] needed to describe that because it's powerful.

[00:18:02] Because if you really speak someone's lingo, it's like you're sharing a secret language and it's how you know to really develop, as I teach in the book, the system of speaking someone's lingo and getting someone, uh, to, you know, attracting your ideal clients. Um, to me, you know, whether it is to what degree we get to know our clients so that we can speak their lingo or, uh, you know, the business strategies that, again, it all comes back down to the energy, right?

[00:18:32] Because if you do things with a clean energy, In a good intent, they will feel the energy of that. Mm-hmm. If you're coming from a place of manipulation, you have to believe, yes, some people could be fooled, but in the long run, that's not gonna work for you. But I, I agree with you that we really, so much of it comes down to the, the energy of our actions.

[00:18:54] Uh, what's always something that's always surprised me, and people get this when I, when I describe it to them, Is [00:19:00] that if you are not confident in your ability to serve people, You actually have to be very subtle in how you are trying to sell your services because if you're not confident, you're not exuding enough energy of a con of confidence.

[00:19:15] What's always been interesting to me with, particularly with my students in the Business Institute, because we work so much on. Their confidence, their strategies that I, and, and really we work a lot on their clarity. You know, getting people really clear on what they stand for, uh, internally, and then getting them clear on how to communicate that to the outer world with clear brand messaging and clear communication.

[00:19:39] What happens is their clarity gives them confidence, and the confidence enables them to be a little more assertive. It's amazing when, if you are so. Energetically clear and confident that you can help somebody. It's amazing how direct you can be. Like you can, you can, and [00:20:00] I, I find myself often in a situation when I, I meet someone who I so wholeheartedly believe should join the Self-Employed Business Institute.

[00:20:07] Cause I think that we're just perfect for them. We can really help them. I find that I can be pretty direct in saying, I really believe this is perfect for you. Like I, I really, I can, I can see with all my heart that this is exactly gonna create the change that you wanna create in six months and really step forward and they receive it so cleanly.

[00:20:26] Mm-hmm. Where if you said those exact same words, coming from a less sincere place, it would come across as pushy and they would sense it and they would sense it. So it has everything to do with how. Clear you are on your intentions. If that, if, if, if your intention and and sincere belief in your ability to serve isn't clear, they will feel that.

[00:20:48] Sarah: Yeah. It also means, you know, humane marketing is all about giving the power back to the people and respecting. The intelligence [00:21:00] of human beings. I think that's what this is really is. And that's what we've seen, um, over the last few years has been happened. Like. People have been treated as if they were stupid.

[00:21:13] Quite honest, a lot of times. Um, you

[00:21:16] Jeffrey intro: know, well, we were told as marketers many years ago to market to the age of a five year old. Yeah. Literally, that was the advice, what, 10, 20 years ago Nowadays, I, I, I, Sarah, you're one of the few people that actually I think really get that. People, consumers today are so sophisticated.

[00:21:32] Yeah. Like we have to stop dumbing down. Exactly right. Do is it, is it a noisy world? Absolutely. But here's been this, this, here's been the ridiculous strategy, right? Yes. It's a noisy marketing world, so the way your typical, you know, more aggressive marketers will tell you as well, it's such a noisy world.

[00:21:51] You need to dumb down your messages to the degree of a five-year-old so that you cut through the noise. And here's my philosophy, [00:22:00] right? And here's my fly, which I think philosophy, which I think you'll agree with is, is yeah, it is a noisy world. And people I refer to p, you know, I jokingly say consumers today are, and myself and included, but we're also, as business owners, we're consumers.

[00:22:13] Consumers today are attention snobs. And we should be, because we have so many choices as to where to put our attention, that we've just become super selective as to where we put our attention. So don't dumb down your content. What you have to do is make your marketing compelling enough that it's attention worthy.

[00:22:33] Netflix has no problem getting people's attention because they're creating content that is attention worthy. And I, I actually in, in the self-employed life, my book, I refer to it as the Netflix test. Imagine your marketing is so compelling. That two people are sitting side by side at the, so on a sofa watching a Netflix movie, and one of those two people has a laptop sitting on their lap.

[00:22:58] And at the same time, they're watching the [00:23:00] Netflix movies. They're pro producing websites for your area of specialty, and they come across your marketing, your website, and it's so compelling. They turn the laptop to the person next to them and say, well, check this out. Isn't this cool? All right. I've done it and I'll bet many listeners have done just that same thing that's passing the Netflix test when what you're, when your marketing is so compelling, you have taken attention away from somebody's watching their Netflix to turn the laptop to the person next to them.

[00:23:29] That's how you don't dumb down your content. In fact, I'd say it's the other way around. Yeah. Make it so in intellectually compelling that people are hooked. Right. And they wanna

[00:23:38] Sarah: know. And of course, again, it depends on your ideal client, but I don't want to work with dumb clients, you know? And, and that sounds harsh, but it's true.

[00:23:48] I call my people deep thinkers for a reason. Right. It, it's, I want to Yeah. Work with people who think deeply about things. And so that brings us back to [00:24:00] the. Ideal client conversations. So obviously if you're dumbing down your content and your marketing and hoping to attract deep thinkers like yourself, well then there's something that is not going to

[00:24:12] Jeffrey intro: work.

[00:24:12] Yeah. You also just said something that I really wanted to point out that was so be because it was so natural to you, you just said it without even realizing it, and you refer to your. Tho those that you serve as my people. Yeah. And there's, there's energy, there's energy that I do the same thing. And I try to encourage other people that if you're coming from a place of humane marketing or as I refer to it in my podcast and in my world as doing business with a soul, right?

[00:24:35] Mm-hmm. We have very, we have very aligned goals. Uh, if you are amongst people that want to do humane marketing, Think about those that you serve as your people, not an audience. Right, right. An audience is sterile. Yeah. It's, it's, you don't, I love and I totally have embraced the idea of referring to, I even to, even to my speaking rep.

[00:24:55] I will tell her, it's like, cuz in the speaking world, you so now to talk about audiences [00:25:00] and I don't, I tell my speaking rep. Um, are those my, when she proposes an idea an an event to me, I'm like, are those my people? Yeah, let's talk about whether they're my people, because I've told her I only wanna speak in front of my people.

[00:25:11] Regardless of how much an organization is willing to pay me, I'm not cuz I've done it, I'm not willing to stand on a stage for the biggest amount of money and those aren't my people. I hate it. It's not satisfying and I'm not doing anything of a significance. It's not worth it. No, it's not. I only wanna be in front of my people.

[00:25:28] I will speak for free if I have to in front of, not ideal, but on occasion I will. Because if it's a room of my people, they're gonna be joining as students in the self-employed business institute. And that's, I can make more money that way than I ever will as a speaking gig. So I just energetically, I think there's such a big difference at looking at the people you serve as your people as opposed to an audience.

[00:25:52] Cuz the energy of an audience is us. Me and them where? Oh, up

[00:25:58] Sarah: you one target audience. [00:26:00] You know,

[00:26:00] Jeffrey intro: it's like, oh, we won't go there. This is my target audience. Right. That's why you referred in the intro about my, or as we were speaking earlier, you were speaking about, you know, my transference of, of how I look at marketing.

[00:26:11] Right. I literally, Referred to it as, we need to stop saying target marketing and let's think about it. Hug marketing. Yeah. Hug marketing is the system I, let's talk about hug marketing. Whichever. Hug Marketing is the system I teach because I wanted so desperately to turn around the energy of, of marketing being referred to as a target marketing.

[00:26:30] And you know what? Here's the thing. In its simplest forms, target marketing doesn't. Work because if people feel targeted, they back up. And if you're referring to them as a target market, you're only kidding yourself if you're thinking they don't feel targeted again because they're feeling the energy of it.

[00:26:49] And if you're energetically thinking of those people that you're targeting as a target market, they will feel that way. Yeah. So that's why, that's why I came up with the whole concept of hug marketing, [00:27:00] because the people I work with similar to your own, your own people, is. I work with, you know, my, my people are people that want, that, want to do business.

[00:27:10] They want clients, but they want to acquire clients in a way that feels good market. Typically, target marketing feels creepy to them. So target marketing from a visual perspective, if you can imagine this is that. It's a series of concentric circles. So instead of the typical marketing funnel, which visually also has a bad energy to it because a marketing funnel in its traditional form is wide at the top, openhearted welcoming at the top, and it gets more and more narrow to do what?

[00:27:41] Squeeze people through a small hole at the bottom. Mm-hmm. And then don't you love the marketing words like tripwire, like. Could it to, could there be a worse

[00:27:48] Sarah: energy? Oh, that's another one. I need to add that to my glossary. I mean,

[00:27:51] Jeffrey intro: could there not be a worse word for the energy of marketing to refer to things as trip wires?

[00:27:58] These things are astonishing to [00:28:00] me. It's like, who came up with these things? Yeah. Um, trip wire. That one just really kills me. So what I did is I, I instead. Referred to it as a series of concentric circles, so that we look at the people in the outermost circles, what I refer to as lurkers. So lurkers are the people, uh, that you, that are watching you from afar that you didn't even know they're there, or you don't know that they, they're names, right?

[00:28:26] They're people that are watching you on social media. They're reading your content, they're reading your blog posts, they're listening to your podcast, right? They're lurkers, right? And it's. Lurkers are the most overlooked, important process of client acquisition. And you'll know mo more in a moment as we go through this, but it's, it's, I always say it's like, fix this first, the first thing I wanna see people fix is to build out a broader, uh, portfolio of lurkers.

[00:28:54] People that are. Listening and watching what you're doing, and you just don't know it yet. [00:29:00] And they'll play out as being a very important part because the next step is, um, once they, then they become curious, right? So you have to make your content and everything you're doing compelling enough, they become curious.

[00:29:12] So they go from just kind of watching from afar to leaning in. They become curious. Once they become curious, then they become engaged. At this point, they're commenting, they're corresponding, they're reaching out, right? There's a level of engagement going on, but they are still in control of how. Close.

[00:29:31] They're getting to you at this point. The next step is they become connected. And this is why it's so important is connected. And this, this should never be taken for granted because at this point, somebody's handing over the baton, they're, maybe they're giving you their email address, they're opting into your, uh, lead magnets.

[00:29:50] You're, uh, which lead magnets are one of the few energetic words I'm okay with. By the way, I call them signposts. Yeah, signposts. Yep. Yeah. Um, and I like lead [00:30:00] magnet as long as it's like you're a leader and you're leading them to what's gonna help 'em, right. It's like you're grabbing somebody by their hand.

[00:30:05] Right. So I'm okay with lead magnet because to me, I look at it as like, you're grabbing somebody by the hand and, and, uh, they are willingly, you know, following along. But connected is such an important stage so that the next step, of course, is once you become connected, you build a solid relationship. The goal is they become a client.

[00:30:21] But here's to circle back. Here's why those lurkers are so important. One of the biggest problems I find in businesses is they're trying to convert from too small of a number, and that's why they're not getting as many clients as they want. So if you have, if you've captured the eyes and ears of a really broad number of lurkers, Only a small percentage of them are going to become curious, and even a smaller percentage of those are going to become engaged.

[00:30:47] And an even smaller percentage of those are going to connect. And even a smaller percent, much, much smaller percentage of those are gonna become clients. So if you think about it from reverse engineering, if you want to increase your volume of clients, You [00:31:00] may have to reverse engineer and start with the, the strategies that instead of increasing just your strategies as a client acquisition, you may need, may need to back up and increase your strategies for how are you gaining eyes and ears of people in the first place.

[00:31:15] Mm-hmm. Um, which may feel like it's contradictory to ideal clients, cuz you're throwing a broad net. But it's, it's not because for, you have to start with the lurkers and then make them curious and they filter their way down. And your marketing, of course, and your messaging is, is filtering out your non-ideal clients so that you end up with, in the final stage of, of acquiring clients that they, they are your ideal clients.

[00:31:39] We're not done at that self,

[00:31:40] Sarah: we're selecting themselves. Right. You're not filtering them out. You have to, they're they're filtering

[00:31:46] Jeffrey intro: themselves. Correct. And they have to be self. That's good. That's good. You know, I always re the, another way of looking at humane marketing is I often refer to the area, the age in which we're living in as the age of empowerment.

[00:31:56] Right. The moment you try to take somebody's power of choice [00:32:00] away, they want nothing to do with you. Yeah. So marketing today is all about empowering people to choose you, not telling them to choose you. Exactly, but empowering them to choose you. And, but in the in the Hug marketing system that we teach in the Business Institute, the last step is the hug.

[00:32:16] We have a very different goal now, right? Instead of the goal being to target people and shooting an arrow at them as a bullseye, our goal now is a hug. And by the hug. It's like, it's the depth of relationship. And if you have an online business, which so many of us do, or your marketing is online, uh, you know, and you may have had this experience as a podcast host that, um, the goal of hug marketing is.

[00:32:38] If you have the opportunity to meet someone who probably started out as a lurker, you have built such a relationship with them that if you were to speak each other in person, you would naturally give each other a hug Exactly. With their, with their

[00:32:49] Sarah: permission. And, and they want, they are gonna ask you, how can we work together?

[00:32:54] Instead of you trying to, you know, do the whole spiel and presentation and all of that, and [00:33:00] they're like, I know all of that already. Let's just Yeah. How can we learn? Yeah. And

[00:33:03] Jeffrey intro: in the, the world of humane marketing and hug marketing, right? It's, it's not even just. The, the, the hug worthy people that you interact with are not just clients.

[00:33:12] Also, they're your advocates. They're your cheerleaders, right? They're people that love, love, love what you're doing. I have many strong advocates in my life that believe so wholeheartedly what we're doing in the Self-Employed Business Institute. They, in their own success and achievement, career achievement may be way beyond.

[00:33:30] Needing us in the self-employed Business Institute, but they remember where they were when they were starting out. They remember where they were five years in business and how challenging it was and how they needed to kind of reinvent themselves and rebrand and rethink. So they, because they're way beyond that, they have compassion and empathy for people on that stage.

[00:33:48] What we look at is the three to five year stage is the ideal stage for us to, to lend our support. They remember that stage, right? So they themselves may not become a client. But they're, [00:34:00] they're strong advocates for what we do because they've been there. Mm-hmm. And again, that's, those are your hug people.

[00:34:08] Those are the people that you're just eternally grateful for their support, not just the business they do with you.

[00:34:14] Sarah: And I, as I was reading that in the, in the book, I was like thinking, oh, it's so funny how I sign all my emails to my inner circle, people with hugs, you know? Yeah. Like hugs. That's awesome.

[00:34:25] Sarah and I, and before I was like, well, is this really business? Is this accepted? And now I'm like, no, I wanna give hugs to my inner people. And then you came up with Hug Marketing. I'm like, yeah, there you go. Yeah.

[00:34:39] Jeffrey intro: Yeah. It's a different goal like side to me. You, you, you do business in a much more humane way if your goal in your marketing is to achieve a hug than to look at people as a target to shoot at.

[00:34:51] Yeah. Def

[00:34:52] Sarah: definitely. And I'm so glad you brought up Tripwire. I, I wrote this, like I said, this hu humane marketing word, glossary. And I, I [00:35:00] was also kind of coming up like listing all these words like, To me, lead magnet is one of them because I see the magnet as kind of like this thing that sucks people in, you know, supposed to like suck them.

[00:35:12] Um, and, and yeah, other, other ones like the funnel and all of that. So I'll, I'll definitely add Tripwire. I had forgotten about that. Excellent. As we, um, start to wrap up, there's one thing I want to, um, Mentioned because I, I remember from back in the days, I would listen to your podcasts all, all the time, and you would always bring up paradoxes that would be like, you even said, I'm gonna write a book once about paradox.

[00:35:39] So maybe that's still in the, in the work. It's still in my mind. Yeah. And so you talk, in the book, you talk about the vision, uh, paradox and I wanted to, um, have you talk about that because. I think that's a topic that is so, well, it's close to my heart, but I think it's. Uh, so [00:36:00] often, uh, uh, um, kind of a place for disappointment for self-employed people.

[00:36:05] Mm-hmm. And especially also because all the noise about the six figure and the seven figure mm-hmm. And the eight figure crap that we hear all the time. And so we're told to come up with this giant vision, right? Mm-hmm. And then, yeah, there's just paradox. So yeah, tell us

[00:36:21] Jeffrey intro: more about that. Yeah, actually I think, you know, it's a vision is sort of the answer for what I refer, refer to as the goal paradox, right?

[00:36:27] So I look at it as a goal paradox, um, because. And it has always puzzled me, and it's always been something I've been unwinding for and looking for a solution for myself and, and for those that I serve. Um, this goal Paradox is a tough one because as high achievers, as business owners, as people wanting to make an impact on the world, uh, of course we need goals, right?

[00:36:47] You kind of, you, you, we know that we need to know where we're going and how big we want to go and where we're achieving and, and you know, the vision we have, uh, the problem is, Often that, you know, we're told to have big [00:37:00] goals. So how do we have big goals without setting ourselves up for disappointment?

[00:37:04] Because I worry about the disappointment. I worry about the disappointment from not achieving the big goals that people set for themselves as becoming toxic. How many times can you not achieve your big goals? I mean, how many, how many cycles can you go through of disappointment before you start losing steam?

[00:37:21] That is actually exactly why. In our marketing of the Business Institute, we focus on people in business. We, we kind of really hone it in from three to five years, but even I'll broaden it sometimes to one to five years. Um, the reason we choose that time period is because I worry about people running outta steam, right?

[00:37:38] Because we're human. You know, the first, the first year in business, your naivete and your excitement and adrenaline will get you through anything. But somewhere around the third year, the reality of being, being self-employed sets in the challenges. How many times you've gone at bat and missed at something, how many launches you've tried to do and not [00:38:00] succeeded.

[00:38:00] How many clients that you've tried to acquire that you didn't get, um, You know, and the goals that you set for yourself that you didn't achieve, and it's somewhere between the third and fifth year that the repetition of that is starting to wear down their energy to move forward. So to me, goals, goal setting is inherently a, a paradox because we have to set ourselves up for big goals, but how do we not set ourselves up for disappointment?

[00:38:26] And the answer to that, I believe, is, there's a few different ways I, I speak about it. One of those ways. Is to set up goals without being attached to the outcome. Really, really hard to do, but understanding the difference between goal setting as the north star and it not being attached to how you feel about yourself.

[00:38:48] So it's a one, one thing to do is to set goals without being attached to the outcome. Because we can't be, we're not in control of the outcome. We're not in, we're not in control of the circumstances because the guy who said, [00:39:00] it's kind of always as ironic to me that the pandemic happened in 2020 because so many organizations were using the 2020 thing as an, as a.

[00:39:08] You know, a a, an anchor for, uh, clear vision, you know? Cause it's 2020 and I'm like, yeah, yeah. How did that theme work out? How did that theme work out for you? Right. Is it, you know, so we're not in control of those circumstances. So if you had big goals for Clear Vision in 2020, how'd that work out for you?

[00:39:25] Right. It didn't, so, You have to not be attached to the outcome. So set your sights on the big goals without being attached to the outcome. Hard to do, but I think really necessary. And then in a practical sense, in the Business institute, we do a whole workshop on goal setting, uh, in addition to the regular curriculum.

[00:39:42] And I teach it as a, uh, three tiers. So you have your, uh, your good goal, your, you know, your, your minimum goal, your likely goal, and your wow goal. And people call them different things. Um, but [00:40:00] if you tear them out in three tiers, like kind of your minimum, you know, this is what I need to get by and, you know, you know, you're confident you're gonna succeed.

[00:40:07] That right in the middle is probably what you're going to achieve. But then you have your wow goal, which is what if everything in the universe worked perfectly, look what I could achieve, right? Right. So if you have the three tiers, you're more accepting, accepting of where you land and you feel safer.

[00:40:25] You know, your minimum goal, so you feel safer, and when you feel safe, you're more likely to be able to reach further. So that's one of the practical strategies I do as well.

[00:40:34] Sarah: Right. Yeah. To me, what, what you mentioned first is kind of like don't be attached to the outcome. Well, we're in a way coming full circle and, uh, closing back with the personal development because yeah.

[00:40:48] How do you not attach to the outcome? Well, it is back to the trust. It is, um, to the, to your whole part three in, in, in your book about the daily [00:41:00] habits. Yeah. You know, you talk about even grounding and just finding something that's bigger than you. Um, and believing and trusting and, and saying, I am worthy even if, like, that's what I say, I am worthy.

[00:41:13] Even if you never make a sale. Anymore. Right? Yeah. So, exactly. And that, that is that trust building on a daily

[00:41:19] Jeffrey intro: basis. A hundred percent. And that's the point of daily habits because we, we as business owners live in a world that's rocking and rolling in different directions at all times. Right. And the, the what serves.

[00:41:30] Us better so that we can serve others better is for us to maintain a consistent mindset. And a consistent mindset comes from having consistent habits and thoughts and keeping ourselves on track, uh, regardless of the chaos that may ensue us around, around us, but that we can always come back to center, stay ground, and keep moving forward.

[00:41:52] That's how you have impact, uh, over the long haul.

[00:41:55] Sarah: Yeah. And I love that it, it wasn't just, you know, daily habits. Um, not [00:42:00] just another to-do list, but more like yeah, the big things like, you know, how do you, how can you be this lighthouse in the storm? That's what we need, uh, in order to just. Keep going and, and yeah.

[00:42:13] Not be attached to the outcome. Very. This has been amazing. Thank you so much. I love that you bring in the woo into the book and, and it's just like, yeah, it's a beautiful, um, a beautiful book that, that it really shows the reality of what it is like as a, as a self-employed person or entrepreneur. Yeah. I

[00:42:34] Jeffrey intro: said everything I do, I try to do from in the trenches because it's the only world I know, so I may as well, um, help my people.

[00:42:40] Who I'm in the trenches with to succeed and it's my pleasure to do so. Thank you.

[00:42:44] Sarah: Thanks, Jeffrey. Do you share with our listeners where they can find you, your book, your podcast, all of that good stuff?

[00:42:51] Jeffrey intro: Yeah, so, um, my main website is jeffrey shaw.com, uh, which you will find everything in my books, the Self-Employed Business Institute, et [00:43:00] cetera.

[00:43:00] Um, but I also have a great assessment if you're a business owner, if you want to check out to see in the ecosystem of being self-employed, where, uh, you may wanna apply some more. Effort, uh, you can go to self-employed assessment.com. Uh, it's a custom algorithm. It's actually a really kind of an amazing tool to get people thinking about what part of their business they might need to apply a little more effort to, to, uh, have a healthy and thriving self-employed ecosystem.

[00:43:25] So again, that's self-employed assessment.com.

[00:43:29] Sarah: Wonderful. I always have one last question, and that is, what are you grateful for today or this week?

[00:43:36] Jeffrey intro: Uh, I just celebrated, uh, a birthday yesterday, so I am really grateful for some pretty, you know, recent and significant life changes I made to move from Miami to Jacksonville, uh, to, uh, work every day beside my daughter who has worked for me for a couple years.

[00:43:53] But she moved down from Connecticut and I moved up from Miami and we met halfway, not, not quite half, but we [00:44:00] met in Jacksonville, Florida. And both have established homes and we both have our significant others in our lives. And so yesterday was the first day that I spent my birthday, uh, with one of my kids cuz I've lived away from them for so many years.

[00:44:13] Um, so I'm very grateful for that

[00:44:14] Sarah: experience. Yay. And happy belated birthday. Thank you. Wonderful. Thanks for being here, Jeffrey. [00:44:21] Jeffrey intro: Thanks for having me

Today I'm talking to Christine, a Humane Marketing Circle member and Creative Start-Up Coach about passion and happiness.

Join us for a thought-provoking conversation with Christine Michaelis, author of the book "The Happiness Formula." We explore the intriguing question of why some business owners find greater happiness in their endeavors than others. Throughout our discussion, we uncover a treasure trove of insights, examining the transformative power of habits that promote happiness, the art of setting achievable goals that foster fulfillment rather than disappointment, and the joy derived from being part of a vibrant community. Drawing from her extensive research and expertise, Christine offers practical strategies and illuminating anecdotes that are sure to inspire and motivate listeners to unlock their own path to happiness in business and beyond. So tune in as we embark on this captivating exploration of what it takes to be a truly happy and fulfilled business owner.

In this episode, Christine and I share a conversation on:

• Why some business owners are happier than others
• Habits that make us happier
• How to set achievable goals that make us happy and not disappointed
• The happiness that comes from being in community with others
• Her new book 'The Happiness Formula' 
• And much more

Imperfect Transcript of the show

We use and love Descript to edit our podcast and provide this free transcript of the episode. And yes, that's an affiliate link.

[00:00:00] Sarah: Hello, humane marketers. Welcome back to the Humane Marketing Podcast, the place to be for the generation of marketers that cares. This is a show where we talk about running your business in a way that feels good to you, is aligned with your values, and also resonates with today's conscious customers because it's humane, ethical, and non-pushy.

[00:00:23] I'm Sarah z Croce, your hippie turn business coach for quietly rebellious entrepreneurs and marketing impact pioneer. Mama Bear of the Humane Marketing Circle and renegade author of marketing like we're human and selling like we're human. If after listening to the show for a while, you're ready to move on to the next level and start implementing and would welcome a community of like-minded, quietly rebellious entrepreneurs who discuss with transparency what.

[00:00:52] Works and what doesn't work in business, then we'd love to welcome you in our humane marketing circle. If you're picturing your [00:01:00] typical Facebook group, let me paint a new picture for you. This is a closed community of like-minded entrepreneurs from all over the world who come together once per month in a Zoom circle workshop to hold each other accountable and build their business in a.

[00:01:15] Sustainable way we share with transparency and vulnerability, what works for us and what doesn't work, so that you can figure out what works for you instead of keep throwing spaghetti on the wall and seeing what sticks. Find out more at humane.marketing/circle, and if you prefer one-on-one support from me.

[00:01:37] My humane business coaching could be just what you need, whether it's for your marketing, sales, general business building, or help with your big. Idea like writing a book. I'd love to share my brain and my heart with you together with my almost 15 years business experience and help you grow a sustainable business that is joyful and sustainable.

[00:01:58] If you love this podcast, [00:02:00] wait until I show you my mama bear qualities as my one-on-one client can find out more at humane.marketing/coaching. And finally, if you are a Marketing Impact pioneer and would like to bring Humane Marketing to your organization, have a look at my offers and workshops on my [email protected].

[00:02:32] Hi, friends. Welcome back. I hope you're doing well. Today's conversation fits under the P of Passion, so we're back to the first P of the Humane Marketing Mandala. If you're a regular here, you know that I'm organizing the conversations around the seven Ps of the Humane Marketing Mandala. And if this is your first time here and you probably don't know what I'm talking about, you can download your one page marketing plan with the [00:03:00] humane marketing version of the seven Ps of [email protected] slash one page.

[00:03:07] That's the number one and the word page. This one page marketing plan comes with seven email prompts to really help you reflect on these different piece for your business. So it's not a, you know, six step plan here, do this. But it's more like prompting you with questions that help you reflect on your different piece.

[00:03:29] On today's show, I'm talking to Christine, uh, Michael's, uh, humane Marketing Circle, member and creative startup coach about passion and happiness. But before I tell you a little bit more about Christine and today's show, I'd like to tell you about our upcoming storytelling, like We're Human Workshop that takes place on June 7th.

[00:03:52] As you may have noticed, I have this series of workshops, live workshops, with the theme of being [00:04:00] human. Something being human, right? And the idea is to look at these different concepts. Marketing strategies, et cetera, from the perspective of humane marketing and marketing like we're human. So this, uh, time we're looking at storytelling and rather than looking at storytelling from this, Hero's perspective, right?

[00:04:22] Hint, hero's journey. We're actually looking at it from being human. So how are we going to tell stories that feel like we're human? Uh, I think we are kind of tired of the, uh, heroes, uh, stories and we'd watch, rather hear from a human level. Connect on this human level and in order to get ideal clients, we know that we, uh, need to bring more of us to our marketing, more of us to our story, but.

[00:04:55] How, that's the question, right? In which stories are relevant? [00:05:00] Well, that's exactly what we're discussing in this 90 minute live workshop on June 7th, and I'm so thrilled that Hillary Ria, uh, my co-host will help you find your five word life story. And I'm really super excited about this because I. I'm so happy to have found a storytelling expert that agrees with me that, you know, the, the typical heroes journey story type is kind of outdated.

[00:05:29] We need to bring more of us to our story, and that's what we're gonna do in this live workshop. So it starts from within. That's actually what we're doing. Instead of trying to fit our story into the story arc, the hero's journey arc we're coming from within. And there's still a, you know, framework.

[00:05:47] There's still structure, but it really comes from within. So please have a look at the details at humane.marketing/storytelling and uh, join us for only [00:06:00] $27 for this confidence boosting workshop. Cuz once you. Own your story. That's when you're really going out there and resonating with your ideal clients.

[00:06:09] Right? Of course, if you're already a Humane Marketing Circle member, you can intend all our workshops for free. Okay, back to today's episode. Let me tell you a bit more about Christine. Christine Marketing and creative startup coach, founder of the Creative Startup Academy, author of multiple books, public speaker, podcast and workshop facilitator.

[00:06:33] She has worked in marketing and advertising for more than 12 years before she decided to start her own business supporting startups. When her hands-on approach, she has helped hundreds of individuals validate their. Business idea and create a successful startup, as well as working with small businesses, supporting them, getting clarity and marketing their business.

[00:06:56] She sees entrepreneurship as a way of life and [00:07:00] loves the passion that comes from working in that industry. In our conversation today, we talked about why some business owners are happier than others and how to help, uh, those who are not always happy to get to more happiness. Some habits that make us happier.

[00:07:20] How to set achievable goals that make us happy and not disappointed. The happiness that comes from being in community with others. Her new book, the Happiness Formula, and so much more. So let's dive in and be happy with Christine McKays.

[00:07:40] Hi Christine. Thanks so much for being on the Humane Marketing Podcast. I look forward to this conversation about happiness and bliss.

[00:07:48] Christine: Yes, thank you. I'm very excited to share Rod It and um, Hopefully make some people happy. At least smile,

[00:07:56] Sarah: at least. We're definitely smiling. Uh, I just said [00:08:00] offline, I spent most of my day in nature.

[00:08:02] We saw these little ducklings and you know, it's finally spring. Yeah, I'm definitely happy today. So, but let's, let's start with you like, you know, it's, um, I'm basically featuring this episode under the P of Passion, which is the first P of the Humane Marketing Mandala. And so when you said that you're coming out with a book about happiness, I'm like, well, happiness, passion, you know, it's all these good feelings that we want to have more of.

[00:08:31] So tell us yeah. What you are passionate about and, and then also obviously then we go into the, the whole definition of happiness and how do we get more happy as autism.

[00:08:43] Christine: Yes. Um, well, thank you. First, uh, for having me. I'm, I'm very excited. Um, I know we've done so many things together and I know there will be so many more collaborations coming out of that.

[00:08:56] Uh, and I think you can't find a more passionate person [00:09:00] about, uh, what they do. I know everyone is, but I really explode with passion when I, when I talk about, um, What I do and, and I just love it. Uh, and always I say I'm an accidental entrepreneur because I never wanted my own business. Um, but it had just happened and I absolutely love it.

[00:09:19] And I only basically work with people because I work with entrepreneurs, um, that are really passionate about what they're doing. And that's lovely. That wraps off on me. And it really gives you energy, I think, um, when you, uh, yeah, when you work with people that are passionate. So what am I passionate about?

[00:09:39] Work. Mm-hmm. In this case, my own company. Um, if we are looking from a business perspective, I'm really someone who loves getting things done and crossing things off the list. I, I really love, I'm, I'm like kind of, I'm really passionate about having this and I used to not anymore, uh, have to-do lists for [00:10:00] personal life.

[00:10:01] Okay, do the sports, uh, go out for, for a walk, wash the dishes and stuff. Now I don't do that anymore, and I'm learning more and more to also sometimes do nothing, uh, which is really difficult for me because I love to finish things also. That's not very strange. But I love to finish a shampoo bottle or to, to finish a product or something.

[00:10:24] I have to, that's fine with me. Um, I know what you

[00:10:27] Sarah: mean. Yeah, I know what you mean. It's kind of like that's. Oh, okay. We finished this, you know, and it's like, oh, we can move on to the next thing.

[00:10:35] Christine: Yeah. And challenges work really well for me. If you give me a 30 day challenge, I will do all 30 days. Um, But what I'm really passionate about is as well, um, is making people smile.

[00:10:47] I think really people always say, oh, what's your purpose in life and stuff? And this sounds very cheesy now, but I, I love making people happy because it makes me really happy and it's all interconnected and it's lots of science behind it [00:11:00] as well. Um, however, that really, that may, that, that's what I'm passionate about, spreading some happiness in, in swan's life.

[00:11:09] Hmm. Yeah.

[00:11:10] Yeah.

[00:11:11] Sarah: So, so let's talk about this happiness. Um, what, what I was thinking about is like, you know, how come what makes some entrepreneurs, business people happier than others? And, and then how can we help those who are not currently happy in their business or in their life? But since we're on a business podcast, we can talk about business.

[00:11:37] Um, Yeah. How can we help them to find back to being happy?

[00:11:44] Christine: I think the very first thing, I mean there's also official definitions of happiness and stuff. The very first thing is obviously to know and understand, um, which probably people do that. Happiness means different things to different people. Um, however, there's also science [00:12:00] that shows what doesn't make happy.

[00:12:01] Um, but we are gonna focus, of course, also on the things that. Will make people happy and also, um, business owners. So, um, I, I would say you would need to define first, what does happiness mean to you? What does success mean to you? Because therefore, for, um, entrepreneurs are often interlinked, um, let's say saying, okay, if I have success, That makes me happy and that makes also the business sustainable.

[00:12:28] But what does that mean? It does not necessarily mean, uh, a lot of money. It might mean I help X amount of people with what I do, or I have an impact on society, on an, the environment, whatever. Uh, a specific, uh, success definition. I think everyone, uh, as a business owner should have. I, uh, again, I appreciate that we all have to pay the bills and that is a business.

[00:12:54] Um, so it, um, it's thinking about the money, but not in, in the connection with [00:13:00] happiness really. So understanding what does happiness mean to you and your, in your business, um, and what does success mean to you? It's the very, very first thing. And then if we go into a few really practical things and steps into what, um, science has shown, what really works, um, and what helps with happiness and increasing your happiness, Is, um, investing into experiences in instead of materialistic things.

[00:13:29] So because they create lasting memories and give you the sense of personal growth as well, and that overall can contribute, um, to a deeper understanding and satisfaction and fulfillment. And, um, basically when you do that, you prioritize time. Over resources. You prioritized, uh, your time and resource in a way that really align with your values as well and your personal interests.

[00:13:58] So in business [00:14:00] or in personal life as well. And again, this can give you this sense of fulfillment, fulfillment and feeds into the purpose that you might not have defined yet for yourself because it's a very difficult question. What's your purpose like? Mm-hmm. I just talked to someone else who said, I don't believe in that stuff.

[00:14:17] I don't think we have any purpose. And I was like, okay. Uh, that's okay. Everyone has their own view. Um, but really you can, you can do that. And investing into experiences. You also invest in relationships with other people. You create memories together. And, um, you also share that, that success with, uh, other ones.

[00:14:36] And in that case, um, you can share successes, for example, that you had or the company had with the team, with co-founders. With, uh, freelancers that you, that you work with, if you outsource something with suppliers, with clients, you can share this. If, if the client had a success, you should celebrate that.

[00:14:54] Mm-hmm. Not because, oh, I'm so great. That was me, but really because you're happy for that person. [00:15:00] Mm-hmm. And it will make you happy. So that would be the next experiences.

[00:15:04] Sarah: I really like that because I just come back, uh, from, from an experience. So, so basically we have a mastermind, uh, where we meet every, uh, every month and every month that somebody else hosts the, the get together.

[00:15:18] And so today, I hosted and so I just, I said, instead of staying at our place, let's go down to the forest because I'm. Lucky enough to live next to a forest, next to, um, a little water, uh, stream as well. And so, um, you know, it takes time though to take time of our, out of our busy lives, right? Mm-hmm. And so, uh, only five out of the 10 people could make it, but those who made it, we just appreciated it so much.

[00:15:47] And then, like I said, we saw the ducklings, we created memories together, right? And, and yeah, we just. Felt really happy. Where had we stayed in our office and, you know, [00:16:00] maybe, yeah. Made more money or, you know, had another client that it wouldn't have given us the same feeling of happiness. I'm sure. Yes. It's, yeah.

[00:16:11] It's really those times where you step out of the. Normal kind of, um, things that, that you feel these moments of awe and, and experience what you, what you said.

[00:16:23] Christine: Another thing that, and also with others. I mean with others, exactly. You, you can go by yourself and you have a great experiences, but if you share this moment with others, the shared moment again as another.

[00:16:32] Yeah. Um, yeah. So another

[00:16:34] Sarah: layer of happiness. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Another, um, point you make in the book that contributes to happiness is about building. Habits. Um, so talk to us about these habits. Why do habits, one could say, well, habits make it more boring. So, so how do habits make us more happy?

[00:16:57] Christine: Yes. So building habits is [00:17:00] another thing like you just mentioned.

[00:17:01] Uh, I just wanna mention three quickly other things as well. Um, before we jump into the habits, maybe because it's about the experiences, uh, that jumps back into that is the savoring the moment. Meaning that you really see and, and stay in that moment and see the positive side and aspects of things. And what you can do is you can share that with others.

[00:17:23] So if it's an experience that you had yourself, um, to have a bigger impact, you can share this with others as well via the phone. Maybe a video, maybe a quick call, video call or something. Um, that can help that. Um, You can physically jump up in the air and, and be happy about things and, uh, stuff like that.

[00:17:42] But anyway, just to, to, uh, combine that again with the experiences, so with the habits, um, because habits, um, enhance, can enhance if you're talking about good habits. Um, so, and these might have to be defined, but they, um, enhance really [00:18:00] your physical health, your mental health. Um, your emotional resilience and can really contribute to, uh, again, to this greater sense of purpose and fulfillment.

[00:18:12] Mm-hmm. Now, creating habits, I'm gonna talk about this in a second, but, uh, engaging in hobbies or activities that bring you joy and there's a difference between joy and happiness. Officially there's this definition. Happiness is like the longer state and, uh, of something. The joy is the one that you have in that moment.

[00:18:32] Mm-hmm. Um, but I would say find something that brings you joy outside of business also. Um, of course you should have joy in the business and what you're doing. But make sure you do find hobbies in, um, groups that you, um, go out with in nature and things that have nothing to do necessarily with your business.

[00:18:56] Because I think as entrepreneurs as well, we [00:19:00] have difficulties to detach from work because it's always there and it's our baby and we're passionate about it so that we. Mm. Don't see that we overwork ourselves sometimes. So, uh, take some stuff out of there as well and create habits around it. Um, have regular working hours is a habit that I think everyone should have.

[00:19:20] Um, when you ha work for someone else or if you work for yourself, have your own business. Make sure you have working hours set and don't work after those hours. There might be exceptions cuz maybe there's a podcast recording that you're doing with someone else after hours or. Um, you speak at an event and it's not possible to do otherwise, but the norm should be that you have regular set hours.

[00:19:45] That's, I think, a good habit to have. Um, to have a end of work routine is something that I never had. And after I worked with someone, um, that was also a remote coach, basically that was one of the first things she said, [00:20:00] you should have. A habit, a routine when finished working because you can signal your brain.

[00:20:06] Okay, that's it. That's the end of the work today, especially if you're working from home, right? Because, and you might be even in the same room and where you do other things, um, in the not have extra office. That's another great habit. Um, morning routines. I'm a massive fan of morning routine. Um, you don't have to be extreme, but having some kind of routine to start your day to wake up in a slower way.

[00:20:30] I get up very early. I have almost two hour morning routine. Um, but where you involve different kind of senses, bit of exercise, doesn't have to be a massive exercise. Can be also yoga, some breathing exercise. Maybe people like to do visualizations in the morning, maybe to ride whatever you feel, what works for you, which gives you the time.

[00:20:50] To wake up and to set up for the day. I think that would be a good habit to have. Um, healthy eating, which can be sometimes [00:21:00] challenging if you are in, in this run of getting things done. Um, Eating very fast. Even if you eat healthy stuff, uh, is also not, uh, recommended. And I'm still eating too fast. I'm, I'm done in six minutes with my whole, uh, lunch, which is, uh, not good.

[00:21:19] I take an hour because then I do a walk and things like that, but the actual eating part is too short actually. Mm-hmm. Um, But eating healthy because it will give you energy, it will be good for your body. Um, and it will really have a big impact on your health and wellbeing and your happiness as well.

[00:21:37] Sarah: What I hear is like there's a lot of habits that are actually more life related than they are business related. Um, and those are the ones who are really established as. Solid foundation. Right. Of course. Then we could also be speaking about, you know, create a habit to write every day, you know, [00:22:00] write blog posts every, like mm-hmm.

[00:22:01] All of these other habits. But it sounds like the ones that really build a foundation and that make you happy, happy are, are more life related

[00:22:12] Christine: habits. Yes. Yeah, because they, they impact you. Yeah. And the same with getting enough sleep. If you don't get enough sleep, you won't be able to focus enough during your day and get stuff done that you want to get done.

[00:22:22] Right? So everything impacts your, um, impacts your work as well. If you don't eat healthy, you probably don't have enough. Uh, if you don't drink enough water, if you're not eating healthy, you don't have enough energy to get through the day, you will have a down point as well. Um, if you. If you don't give yourself enough time to wake up in the morning with a morning or dinner, that will impact your day.

[00:22:44] Yeah. Um, of course these cutoff days and stuff that I mentioned are more work related, but yes, for sure. Yeah. I'm also

[00:22:51] Sarah: a big fan of, um, I think it was Tim Ferris, at least that's who I heard, uh, talk about it. Uh, first is, is you know, kind of. [00:23:00] Minimizing the decision fatigue, like making, we we're making so many decisions every day as entrepreneurs, right?

[00:23:08] Mm-hmm. So if you can just cut a few of these decisions and just have the habits, uh, for example, you know, I have oatmeal every morning, and that's just. Who I am now, it's basically who I am. It's like I'm Sarah who eats oatmeal with, um, turmeric every morning. And so then it just becomes part of you. I do yoga every morning.

[00:23:30] It's becomes part of you. And so you don't have to decide, should I eat yoga today or should I not? And so that in a way that it's not boring to me. It just makes me happy. I look forward to my oatmeal every day. Right. Yeah. So,

[00:23:44] Christine: and that's exactly the, the point of habits and, and because it becomes a habit, it's effortless.

[00:23:50] You don't have to take a decision. It's just part of what you do. Yeah. And it's also okay, and I'm someone who also struggles with that because I'm so, [00:24:00] um, Chiefer mindset, uh, if you want to call it and crossing off things to this, but. It's also okay to be flexible if you stayed up longer, wake up later to get enough sleep and don't compromise on that part just to get your habit in.

[00:24:17] Um, so I think this flexibility around habit building. Um, so they become part and become easy and you don't have to take the decision to do something. However, if for whatever reason you can't do it at one day, that's also okay. Yeah. And I think it,

[00:24:33] Sarah: you have to struggle with, with yourself and say, okay, fine today, and don't do that habit.

[00:24:38] Christine: Exactly. And just a, a couple of tips there. Um, maybe. And people have heard that before probably on how to actually build habits and how to create habit and to make it effortless and there's lots of science behind it. How long does it take? If some people say 21 days? Some people say, uh, 30 something, some 70 something, I think depends on the person, depends on the habit.

[00:24:58] Hmm. Uh, getting rid of [00:25:00] habit is even more difficult than creating healthy habits. Um, but starting small. Is of course the, the really, the biggest thing. If you say, I wanna meditate every day, one hour, you won't, if you've never meditate before, if you say, I'm gonna take a mindful breath every day before I get out of bed, I can do that.

[00:25:20] That's the smallest thing you can do. Take one mindful breath, that's like a meditation, or I do a five minute guided meditation from YouTube or stretching or something that probably you can do. Um, accountability can be something that can help. So find someone, uh, that you share this again, shared experiences.

[00:25:39] Mm-hmm. They maybe the habit with, um, or you, some people like use tracking apps. Uh, right. Strangely enough, I don't, but, uh, I know there's a lot of happy tracking apps and stuff. Some people, for some people that works. Um, again, tracking the progress. Um, if you do yoga, like you mentioned, for example, if you.[00:26:00]

[00:26:01] Um, you see, you get more flexible and, uh, it's, it's better and you have probably as back pain because, uh, we probably sit a lot in front of the computer with a lot of zoom meetings, things like that. A good habit to have is also have taking screen breaks, for example, um, not to be in front of the screen for eight hours a day.

[00:26:20] Taking the breaks. Make sure your eyes can relax. Um, celebrating when you've done one of the habits, okay? You, you created something. So if you wanna do yoga, if you take a breath, whatever it is, then in the end, that habit is you celebrate that you did that. And that doesn't mean you have to then go out and drink something, or you, you go on a holiday every time you do a habit.

[00:26:42] But it can be just like a Well done, Christine, a head on the shoulder. Maybe you wanna hug yourself. Maybe you look in the mirror and say, yes. Yes, I did that. Thank you. Good. That was good. That's like little celebration to signal your brain, that little success moment as well. [00:27:00] Yeah. Feeling more accomplished.

[00:27:02] Um, and a final thing is, um, finding the situations and the support and the surroundings that help you to implement your healthy habits. So if you wanna establish something and your life and the people around you is not, just not set up for that. Then think about it and doing it consistently will help you to do that.

[00:27:23] And um, I think the last thing they always say is, make sure you attach it to something that you already do. So someone said to me, oh, if, if you wanna do five sit ups in the morning, if we talk about physical exercise and you attach that to when you stopped brushing your teeth, Then you will do it more likely than trying to do it outside of something that you already do.

[00:27:46] You wanna drink more water. That's why some

[00:27:47] Sarah: people have their running shoes already out when they go to bed. Right, right next to the bed.

[00:27:53] Christine: Yeah. Also, yes. Yes. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah, this, uh, would be like, good, good tips. Thanks. Thank

[00:27:59] Sarah: you. [00:28:00] Yeah. I, there's another thing I really wanna make sure we have time to talk about.

[00:28:05] Mm-hmm. Um, which is goals. Because in a way, it kind of probably ties into our definition of success because we, as entrepreneurs, we set ourselves sometimes quite aggressive goals, right? Mm-hmm. And then we're not happy or we're sad if we're not achieving them. And so you talk about this idea of making sure that we set achievable goals.

[00:28:34] Mm-hmm. Talk to us about that and how that makes us happier.

[00:28:39] Christine: Yes. Um, well, because if we feel, um, first of all, if we are achieving goals and then we talk about how I usually set goals as well, um, then it gives us this sense of fulfillment that we achieved something, uh, we should always celebrate, we achieved the goal.

[00:28:55] So it, it gives us a sense of moving forward. I think if you do not [00:29:00] set goals, it can be very demotivating in business. Um, and I always say, if you don't set yourself a goal, how do you know you achieved something? If you never wanted to achieve something because a goal is nothing else, then okay, I wanna get something done if we, okay.

[00:29:15] Goal setting is a harsh, harsh thing and I know we all do it and, and stuff, and we're in business. Um, however, I think getting to a specific point where you want to be, It's already setting yourself a goal. And we all want to be somewhere. We all want to be, have specific impact. We all want to have a certain amount of money to support a lifestyle that we want.

[00:29:36] We all, um, want to make work with X amount of people because then we know, again, we have that impact in that kind of way, so that that really can support making us happy. But one thing is extremely important. Goals might change. Goals are not written in stone like they say you can, it's your goal. [00:30:00] Well, I always say you have three questions.

[00:30:02] Um, is it your goal, yes or no? Is it maybe put onto you by someone else? Um, especially when you work in a company and it's, you are not a business owner, then you often get goals set by other people. Um, does the goal excite you? And, um, if any of the answers to these questions is no. Revisit the goal because you will get demotivated.

[00:30:27] Mm-hmm. And then there's obviously a lot of acronyms and formulas and stuff that you can use to set goals and, uh, one of the most used ones is smart. I actually don't like that too much, even though it does work. But I, I just don't like it too much because it's always used in corporate situations and stuff like that.

[00:30:47] Um, so I, um, use actually a different one, which is called Achieve, which already has a great word in it. Okay, so the acronym like that much better? Yes. Um, so it's basically stating a goal as if [00:31:00] it already happened. So not I want this, but, um, as as it, I have a successful business. Let's start with that.

[00:31:08] Instead of saying, oh, I don't want to be in a full-time job. Um, then we have the C, which is clear and specific, so you need to know what that means. What does a successful business mean to you? Where is it with whom is it? How much many clients do you have? The turnover, because you will have to think about the money side as well.

[00:31:26] Um, and then, um, be very clear and specific on that. And then the age is actually the hittable, which is. Achievable. Um, is this actually realistic? Too often I hear people that, oh, I'm gonna have, uh, this company that will have 2 million turnover at the end of, uh, year two. This is not realistic. Um, probably depends on the company.

[00:31:49] Um, the I in Achieve is in a positive direction. So state what you want rather than what you don't want. Also has a bit to do with how the brain works. [00:32:00] Um, because they, uh, the brain does not understand negatives. Um, and if you give it what you already want, then there's a lot of research done that you will actually be more likely to achieve that e uh, so achieve, uh, is exciting.

[00:32:16] So it should be exciting for you. If it doesn't excite you, I would not recommend. You're not gonna Yeah. Call, go for it. Yeah. And then the V is actually value-based. Um, and I think that's really important because, um, it should align with your values. You need to be clear on your values, what's important to you, what don't you want, what do you want in life, um, and it needs to align with that.

[00:32:40] And then we have the last E, which is ecological. And basically what that means is who and what is affected by you achieving that goal. Because maybe you say, I want to have this company and I wanna run it in New Zealand. If you have a family, For example, or also friends or uh, husband [00:33:00] or children, they will be affected by you moving to New Zealand.

[00:33:04] So you should check if they're okay with you achieving that goal. You might have less time for anyone because all of a sudden you have to work more. Um, and you check if they're okay with that. And if they are not okay with that, are you okay with them not being okay with that? That makes sense because it's your goal, it's your life.

[00:33:24] But you,

[00:33:24] Sarah: you're part of a bigger ecosystem and Exactly. You need to check in with them. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I like, I like that achieve much better than the the smart. Yeah. Mm. It's, yeah. It's somehow outdated and Yeah. It's maybe it's also bigger. It's overused. It's like from the corporate day, so we're like, nah, we're getting Exactly.

[00:33:44] Christine: Exactly.

[00:33:47] Sarah: I love that. Yeah. Um, We both have communities. Um, and so I'm just wondering also what happiness and community, where they [00:34:00] overlap what they have in common. Um, yeah. You wanna talk about your community and then we can also talk about the circle a little bit.

[00:34:09] Christine: Yeah. Yeah. So in, in general, I would say just, um, to answer the question, what do communities have to do with, um, happiness?

[00:34:17] Um, it's actually scientifically proven as well that soul through connection, doing things with others, um, is extremely important for happiness and it's crucial for your over overall wellbeing, um, and happiness. And I talk in, um, my book about that as well, a lot. Um, and they actually found that it's. If you are connected in a community, so that's even in a church or in our cases, right?

[00:34:46] Sarah: Professional communities. Real life communities or

[00:34:48] Christine: online? Yeah, online communities. Yeah. Yeah. Um, it, they, they've shown the studies have shown that you're less likely to experience, um, uh, premature, uh, [00:35:00] death and have more chances to survive fatal illnesses. Because it, it is a bit strange, but it's really, makes, makes total sense to me.

[00:35:10] Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think so because, um, it will also build up for more resilience and, um, you will have a support system when you're going through difficult times. You will, um, less likely feel loneliness and isolation, have this sense of belonging and you can discover your purpose there as well. Um, and usually you are part of a community that you have shared values with, right?

[00:35:35] And, uh, this is where our communities and especially also yours come in and we just be a part of something and we can create new experiences together. So that's based again, of the shared experiences. Um, so having social connections and groups and communities that you belong to really play a massive role in health.

[00:35:57] Physical health really. Um, but also in the [00:36:00] mental, um, health and wellbeing and, um, what my community is, uh, for entrepreneurs in the first three years to support them with all kind of things, uh, support, uh, in, in resources and life support and with the community. Um, and yours obviously is a fantastic community of professional people, but that are not.

[00:36:22] Mm. Because sometimes when people hear the word professional, they're a bit put off because they think it's like that kind of person that just thinks, uh, uh, about numbers and about, uh, how many followers do I have and, um, how much money do I make? And stuff like, it's not that you can, in my point of view.

[00:36:39] And also I know everyone in your community you can be professional, meaning reliable. Um, Exchange knowledge. So you're knowledgeable as well in what you're doing. And I think your community's amazing for that because I've met so many amazing people, started already collaborating with them. And I remember the very first [00:37:00] session that I attended life, I had so much that I took out of that that I then implemented into my business, which really works as well.

[00:37:08] Um, and you. All the focus is obviously all on humane and gentle, um, marketing techniques as well. And it, it's really, it's really lovely and it, it does give me that sense of, I found a tribe that I belong to because I can feel that we have, um, shared values, we create these experiences. It's very relaxed and, um, but.

[00:37:34] Still professional. Like I say,

[00:37:36] Sarah: I love to highlight that. Right. It's this idea, well, I guess we do speak a lot about being human, right? Mm-hmm. Marketing, like we're human. And so that's really what I've wanting, wanted to create is a place where we can be human. Mm-hmm. And yet still be professionals or talk about marketing and business and, and I think that's what also [00:38:00] creates the happiness because we are.

[00:38:02] All being our authentic selves. I think that's what you also meant by the community where you feel like you can be yourself,

[00:38:10] Christine: right? Yes. And you can feel that passion that everyone has. Yeah. So coming back to the passion that everyone has for their business, and again, if you, if you talk to people that are passionate about something, this will wrap off on you because it's positive energy and it will really, really gives you energy.

[00:38:28] Because I, I know it can be sometimes difficult to attend a meeting after hours. Um, right. But every time I, I attend, for example, one of yours, which will be for my time, for example, at five o'clock, sometimes once a month, um, or twice a month. Then I do think, oh yeah, I had a long day. Yeah. But I do know after this meeting, I will be energized actually.

[00:38:51] Right. I will be energized because of the people

[00:38:53] Sarah: in there. It's experience, again, it's how we started, right? Yeah. It's more of an experience rather than just like, [00:39:00] oh, let me listen to another meeting, or, yes, yes. Because it's not that. Yeah. And, and I just, because you started talking about, um, you know, other communities, church, or mm-hmm.

[00:39:12] You know, faith-based or whatever. It's almost like, at least in Europe, that's kind of diminished, right? Mm-hmm. We don't have. Or a lot of us are not really in faith-based communities anymore. And I remember talking with my husband about it, and it's like, we're not craving the church, but we are thinking, you know, at least his parents, they were very, um, involved in church and he's like, yeah, we had a place to be on Sunday.

[00:39:43] Mm-hmm. And, and it, and we, you know, we did things together and stuff like that. And it's true that. It's almost like we need to replace that now.

[00:39:53] Christine: Mm-hmm. And there is actually someone who is doing that across the world also very successfully. Uh, they're called Sunday [00:40:00] Assembly Uhhuh, and they're on purpose, uh, not religious based.

[00:40:03] So, um, he's actually saying, I don't believe in any gods or anything, but he believes in community and he creating those places where people go every Sunday. And have fun together. So I went to a lot of these in when I was in the UK because the guy who founded it, um, Who's also was hosting some of my events that I was doing across Europe, actually, because he's a comedian.

[00:40:27] Um, they're really amazing events because people go there, you meet the same, and they, they're like a franchise. So people, they pop up everywhere. Also around the world, also in the US and stuff. And people go and you sing along to a someone to a karaoke song of, uh, of queen. Then there's someone who's, um, There's always a theme of the day.

[00:40:48] Mm-hmm. Someone who has written a poem about that theme. Then there's someone who gives a talk about something. And then, um, so I, I actually also did a talk there about community building because of another project I was working on. [00:41:00] And then people stay together and they go together in the pub and, and stuff like that.

[00:41:03] And that is really exactly what you mean. Yeah,

[00:41:07] Sarah: yeah, yeah. It's so needed, so yeah. Yeah, I think so. I'm happy that you are creating your community for your people and, and yeah, I think there needs to be more opportunities for people to, to

[00:41:22] Christine: commune, to get together. Yes. And also to get together, uh, in person.

[00:41:28] I mean, we've never met in person. Hopefully we will next, uh, next year around this time, of course. Um, because I know you're organizing something, but. Everything is online and everything. It can be very difficult as well to activate a community and to get together and to have this community feeling, even though you're on the screen for zoom fatigue, this new word that came out, this new illness that all of a sudden happened.

[00:41:50] But yeah, I think, yeah.

[00:41:53] Sarah: Well, obviously everything we talked about here is, is kind of, well not everything, but a lot [00:42:00] of what we talked about here came from your book. So yes, please do. Tell us. Uh, and for those of us who are watching on YouTube, you can hold it up because you just got it today. Oh,

[00:42:10] Christine: yes, wait, I have it here.

[00:42:11] It's a first printed copy. Yay. The Happiness Formula. Thank you. Uh, you can get it on Amazon, basically on Amazons, but, uh, there is, uh, greatest startup academy.com/books where you can find that if in case you would be interested. Um, however, um, we are also for, for you, for the sense of this podcast, I would like to offer.

[00:42:34] The Kindle book, at least the English version in this case are for free. So, Ooh. Thank you. Yeah. So, so when this one is, uh, aired, which, uh, is on the 2nd of June, I think. Yeah. Um, which is the Friday. So Friday, Saturday, Sunday, this book will be available, the Happiness Formula for three on Kindle. Wow,

[00:42:55] Sarah: amazing.

[00:42:55] So I'll make sure I use the right link where we can, uh, [00:43:00] download that and, and read about the habits and the goals. And there's so much else we had prepared but didn't have time to talk about. So yes, I'm just gonna have to read the book. Wonderful. Well, do you tell us, um, where people can find you, uh, your website again, where you most often hang out on social

[00:43:20] Christine: media and all of that?

[00:43:21] Uh, I think LinkedIn. Um, would be, um, one of the preferred ways to get in contact with me. Um, but you find everything on my website. Also the LinkedIn link on, on the bottom, uh, and the footer, um, to my profile. So if you go to creative startup academy.com, there you find everything, the book and also my LinkedIn.

[00:43:40] Link the books

[00:43:41] Sarah: because you've written like 20 books, right? Yeah. This is the

[00:43:45] Christine: 20th. Yes. I got a bit

[00:43:47] Sarah: obsessed. Make sure you celebrate because you tell everybody else to do it. So

[00:43:52] Christine: make sure I, I, I, yes. I already celebrated when I unpacked earlier. Uh, and, and actually was running around and, and dancing and put a song on.[00:44:00]

[00:44:00] And also my, my boyfriend was dancing with me, but we will celebrate more this weekend.

[00:44:05] Sarah: Yes. Nice. I always have one last question on my podcast, and it's actually also, uh, another thing we skipped, which is gratitude. Uh, so what are you grateful for today?

[00:44:17] Christine: Um, uh, this week apart from being grateful to have, uh, this opportunity to spread more joy and happiness, uh, in people's life, I think.

[00:44:26] One, there's two big things I'm very grateful for. First, I, uh, I found love. Mm-hmm. Finding, uh, the person that you want to stay with for hopefully for the rest of your life that will be hopefully long and healthy. Mm-hmm. Um, that's one massive thing I'm massively grateful for, and that's always going in my gratitude journal every day.

[00:44:46] Um, and the other thing, uh, is really to have these new opportunities, meeting so many lovely people. So there's so much support out there emotionally and um, with business [00:45:00] advice practically and everything, and I'm really, really grateful for that, that people are so openly sharing and supporting.

[00:45:09] Sarah: Nice, nice.

[00:45:10] Two things to be grateful for. Yeah. I'm grateful for this conversation. Thanks for being here. Thank you.

[00:45:26] Thanks so much for listening to this episode. I hope it put a smile on your face and maybe got you curious about Christine's book to learn some more Happy. Habits so you can get her book, and as she said, she's offering it for free until June 4th, 2023 at creative startup academy.com/the-happiness-formula.

[00:45:53] So go there now and download, uh, your free version of the Kindle book for free until June 4th. [00:46:00] You can find out more about Christine and her work at Creative Startup Academy. Dot com. And if you're looking for others who think like you, then why not join Christine and I in the Humane Marketing Circle?

[00:46:14] You can find out more about, uh, this at humane.marketing/circle, and I also hope to see a few of you at the storytelling like we're human craft, your five word life story workshop. On June 7th with Hillary Rio, you can find out more about that at humane.marketing/storytelling. You'll find the show notes of this [email protected] slash 1 65.

[00:46:47] And on this beautiful page, you'll also find a series of free offers, such as my Saturday newsletter, the Humane Business Manifesto, and the free Gentle Confidence mini course, as well as my two books, marketing like [00:47:00] we're human and selling like we're human. And if you're an audiobook fan, I have good news marketing like We're Human is.

[00:47:07] Available on, uh, audible or everywhere else you get your audio books. So if you are kind of tired of reading, especially now as we are heading into the, um, nice sunny season, at least on my side of the world, maybe you just want to go for a walk in nature and listen to the book while you're walking. Uh, again, you can look that up on Audible or anywhere else where you find.

[00:47:32] Uh, audiobooks, of course, read by yours truly. Thanks so much for listening and being part of a generation of marketers who cares for yourself, your clients, and the planet. We are change makers before we are marketers. So now go be the change you want to see in the world. Speak soon in.