The Humane Marketing Show. A podcast for a generation of marketers who care.

In today's episode, we're diving into the world of pitching, but not as you know it. Forget the dread and discomfort often associated with pitching; with our guest, Rachel Allen, we're exploring how to turn it into a process of genuine connection and growth.

You'll discover why pitching feels challenging, how to embrace it authentically, and strategies tailored for introverted solopreneurs. We're also covering practical tips on tracking your pitching efforts in a simple, effective way. If you've ever wondered how to pitch in a way that feels true to you and builds lasting relationships, this is the conversation for you.

Join us as we learn to navigate the balance between effective pitching and maintaining our authenticity, all while growing our businesses in a humane way.

In this episode, Rachel shares:

• Why we hate pitching and how to change that
• How to pitch authentically
• That pitching is actually about creating relationships
• Pitching strategies for introverts
• How and what to track when pitching, the simple way
• and much more…

 

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Ep 183

Sarah: [00:00:00] Hi, Rachel. Good to see you, and welcome to the humane marketing podcast. It's a delight to have you here.

Rachel: Oh, thank you so much. I'm so happy to be here.

I know we've wanted to talk about this for, what, over a year, I think. Um, so I'm excited that we're finally able to to make our schedules match.

Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Exactly. We've talked about different versions of this. And so, uh, in the end, we Decided to, um, talk about pitching, which I think is so relevant. And and in in a way, I think maybe it's because I kept Seeing was it you or someone else? You know, all kinds of people always post about the pitches that they get on LinkedIn and and how wrong they are and and all of that.

So I'm like, yeah. That's a that's a good topic because We wanted to talk about pitching, but not just about how it's bad, but how you can actually do it in a way that [00:01:00] feels Ethically good and humane. So I think the the title of the podcast, I called it Humane Pitching. Ching. So let's dive into that and and how that would look like.

Because I do think it's a it's a relevant business It's, um, tactic to understand, uh, how to work it. And and and so you specialize in that because you're really good with words. And and so you I approached you to come on to the come come on to the podcast, but then also come to the community and and, uh, do a collab workshop on the topic of humane pitching. So so why don't we start with kind of your experience with Pitching, but also with receiving pitches and how that changed, maybe how you approach them and how you teach them.

Rachel: Yeah.

Oh, I love that. So my experience with pitching is actually a little bit of a sandwich. Um, I before I [00:02:00] did Uh, online marketing. I was a journalist. And so my initial experience with pitching was actually writing and receiving press releases And, um, understanding how to pitch articles in that kind of environment.

I never really thought I would use that again until I started doing online marketing and started getting all of these really Bad pitches where I was it would be people who clearly had, you know, even gotten the basics wrong. Like, they'd misspelled my name, or, um, Um, you could tell that they just copy pasted the same thing to a thousand people. Or my favorites would be the ones who, um, they would try to sell me something like drop shipping. And I'm like, I'm a marketer. What am I gonna drop ship?

Like, I don't have merchandise. That's nice. So I would see these and be like, That's dumb. I should do something about it. And then, uh, last year, I finally was like, okay.

It's time. Because I kept I saw this big wave of ones coming up again because of our the shifts that we're having in our, uh, demographic online. And so I was like, okay. I'm [00:03:00] gonna just Fix this once and for all and teach a podcast teach a teach a workshop called pitching for people who hate pitching. And, um, in preparation for that, I worked out a methodology for myself where I pitch 10 ish or so podcasts a week.

It takes me about 30 minutes a day, the if that much. And most of all, it's just it feels like human to human conversations. Nobody walks out of this interaction feeling bad, Which was my priority for creating it.

Sarah: Yeah. That's great.

And I think pitching for podcasts is a great example. Right? That's As a podcast host, I probably receive sometimes, like, once 1 per day and and other, You know, other weeks is, like, at 2 per week. And and there's the occasional 1, like, once in a blue moon that I'm like, okay. Yeah.

This feels authentic. But most of them, um, just yeah. Not even not even replying anymore, I have to [00:04:00] admit. I'm like, I just don't have the energy to reply or or teach them something. Um, actually, it's funny because I'm I'm gonna grab my phone.

Just before We got on the on the call. I received 1. And that's kind of the new the new way, I think, of doing it, Uh, where they pretend that they're, like, your biggest fan, and they'll pick 1 episode that they really loved apparently, and they're They shared it with their team. So he's like, yeah. We shared it with it with my team.

And then it's like, I'm wondering if you'd be open to, uh, being introduced to someone in I know in the SaaS space. I'm like, SaaS space. Like, I I okay. I have nothing against technology and, you know, All that, but had it has nothing to do with the other episodes that I'm I'm usually posting. So, clearly, that kind of, like, warming up, Bo, I know you so well.

I'm your biggest fan. It just feels so fake. Right? And and [00:05:00] I have to admit that, like, for a mini Split of a second, I'm like, oh, that's nice because your ego goes it's like, oh, yeah. That that feels good.

But then you're like, Wait a minute. No. This is not real. Right? And and so there it feels like there's these waves of Kind of pitching advice that goes out.

Uh, I don't know who teaches them anymore. Like, it used to be the Neil Patel's, and Hopefully, they have evolved a little bit. So now it's other people who are teaching these strategies where it's just kinda like you can tell, oh, This is you know, this person has attended this program, and then it's all Mhmm. Feels the same. So I'm really curious what You are teaching how that is different, and you kind of hinted at is the relationship building.

So tell us a little bit more about that. Yeah. Well,

Rachel: like you said, the the main core focus when I teach this workshop, I tell people, here here's the way you [00:06:00] make this work for you. Your metric of success is not how many yeses you get. It's how many questions you ask.

And so we immediately take the, like, the need for the other person to do something off the table. The And this is only on you. Are you going to get more guesses the more you do this? Of course, you will. But I like doing I like teaching it this way because it takes the pressure off of Every ask should have to be, like, so perfect because it has to be a yes.

And it also takes the pressure off the other person because whatever they do, you've already won. You filled out another line on your spreadsheet. You've done a good job. So it makes it just psychologically easier on everybody involved. And then the way that we actually do this outreach Is we, um, reach out to people that are screened.

So I teach you how to prescreen for people that are actually a good fit. I have an absolute no for this, like, Carpet bombing approach where you're just like, let me invite all my Facebook friends. You know? That's terrible. Nobody likes that.

Right. And, uh, we have a structure Where we actually, um, we have the same pitching [00:07:00] templates that you sort of start from every time. So you don't have to, like, go through the blank page every single time. But you tweak it specifically for every single person that you reach out to. And, um, it includes, you know, like you said, some personal not like Creepy personal information, but it shows that you've actually, like, looked at their stuff.

And, um, it puts the focus on what you can bring to them. So it's not reaching out to somebody and saying, hey. Give me something. It's saying, hey. I have something to offer.

Do you think that might be a fit for us? Let's talk about that.

Sarah: Mhmm. Yeah. Yeah.

I love that. Um, like, in in the marketing, like, we're human program, 1 1 of the bonuses is a podcast, Uh, 1 sheeter as a bonus. So so, um, I feel like when you come Paired. So the people who come to me with a pitch where I feel like, oh, they've they've actually listened to the or 1 specific episode. And then they propose something that is related [00:08:00] to that episode, and they give me bullet points Of what they could be speaking about, that to me is an easy yes.

You know? Obviously, yes. I'm gonna go look at their website and see if it's a good fit, But it makes it easy for me as the host to Mhmm. To say yes to it rather than, like, this guy, would you be open to Like, no. Like, that is too much work for me to then figure out, well, who's he gonna suggest?

Uh, all this research that I have to do, I'm like, no. Thank you. So, um, what what you're saying basically is, yes, come prepared. And so, obviously, if you have a 1 1, um, 1 sheeter for for for you as the as the guest or or I think even better, and and that's really what stands out, is is the Bullet points. Like, here's what I could be talking about.

Right? That makes it really easy. So in terms of podcasting, That makes a lot of [00:09:00] sense because you you actually do come and offer something. Right? You offer your expertise to be a guest on the podcast.

Let's talk about pitching in other, um, topics. Like, if I'm gonna come and pitch myself as as a provider of my services. How would you do it there? It becomes a bit more tricky. Right?

Rachel: Yeah. So it's you can use the same structure. It's just a little bit different in terms of the information that you put into it. So I love the way you were you were framing this. It's like, basically, every pitch is is generosity.

It's a gift. It's like, what can I give to you to start up this relationship? And it's the exact same thing with your services. So what I recommend people do is don't just reach out and say, like, hey. I'm a copywriter.

Do you have work? No. Leave me alone. Like, of course not. But if you say, hey.

I've been following your site. Like, I think your social media is amazing. I have noticed this 1 thing, And I'm curious if you do it, like, do you have a reason for it? [00:10:00] If not, like, here's what I might suggest, and I'm very careful to teach people. Like, you don't wanna, Like, bash on them.

It's not like, wow. You could be so great if only your social media wasn't garbage. Let me fix that. It's terrible. No.

Don't do that. Instead, it's like, hey. I think it became really cool if you tried this idea and just tell them. Like, let them tell them the strategy. Let them go try it if they want.

And you say, If you wanna talk about that, I'm happy to talk about it. I love to help out. That's something that I do. And then you give a couple of little bullet points of, like, here's what that could look like. And, again, not it's not like fresh and read.

It's not pushy. It's just like, hey. Here's what I do. Here's what that could look like. Do you wanna talk about that?

And that's that. It's not like buy my thing or watch your business go up in flames. No 1 likes those

Sarah: things. Yeah. Exactly.

The the kind of negative, You know, voice and and and then I'm like, oh, but I have the solution, and let me let me help you. It's like, well, thank you very much, but no.

Rachel: That's so condescending too. Right? Because you go [00:11:00] in assuming that they don't know what they're doing wrong or if they don't have a reason for doing it differently than what you might recommend.

So it's to this, like, just with this commitment to see the other person as just as human as you are and assuming that they know they probably do know what they're doing. And you can come to the table as equals and maybe find a way forward that's better or different or get some different results. But it's not about you coming in and fixing somebody's problem because, Like, what's the first thing anybody does? Even if you know you're doing something wrong and if somebody comes up and they're like, I can help you. You're like, leave me alone.

I'm

Sarah: fine. I got it. Yeah. Yeah. No.

It it's very human to be then self defensive and go, well, yeah, to who asked you for advice? Right? So so it really needs to be wrapped in this generosity, um, kind of package where it's like Yeah. Where where it doesn't feel like they they just wanna teach me something, um, and then charge me for it, but really, like, yeah. Hey.

Let's Let's have a [00:12:00] look at how how this could help you and and then not in a way where probably also it means, like, you need to be okay to not charge for Yeah. This first interaction. Right? It really should be generous and therefore free.

Rachel: Mhmm.

And I think that's something that I I encourage people to think about when they're in the workshop. I'm like, you need to think about your capacity for this as well. Yeah. So I encourage people to always lead with generosity, to think of it as a relationship building exercise that happens to have the side effect of you get more work And you get, you know, different work and you get more of what you want. But the main focus always has to be on the person and the relationship.

And it sounds counterintuitive, especially in the way that pitching is normally taught, which is, you know, hey, b, c, always be closing. Right. Yeah. But we're humans. You know?

We're not doing multinational corporation deals. We're talking to people, usually 1 on 1 or 1 to a small team. It's so much more effective to have a [00:13:00] relationship with someone and be open to where that might lead because the kind of cool thing is If you come in with a preconceived idea of how your relationship is gonna end up, that may actually be, like, way smaller than what it could become. I've definitely had interactions with people where I was like, oh, I think maybe they'll end up becoming, like, a monthly blog client. And then it's like, just kidding.

We're gonna do fractional CMO work. And if I had come in saying, like, I'm gonna do your blogs, k, then I would have never thought to expand this much more larger and rewarding work.

Sarah: Right. Another thing you just brought up is this idea of relationship. Right?

And what came up for me is, like, well, also Don't necessarily see this 1 on 1 relationship as kind of a 1 way road. And and, like, this is Gotta have to turn into a client. It could just stay at the relationship level and then bring clients through referral, for example. Right? Because [00:14:00] you have created something beautiful.

You've given your work for free. The person doesn't need You right now or maybe they don't have the budget. But having created this awe moment then leads this person to refer you to Well, her friends. Right? And so it's like, if you go in and it's just like, oh, it needs to be a yes from this person, Then you're basically closing on all your other avenues, uh, as well.

Rachel: Mhmm. Yeah. I think I'm so glad that you articulated that. I think Curiosity is such a big part of this as well. Just like, I don't know what's gonna happen when we sit down and talk.

You know, we're people. Humans are inherently unpredictable. Who knows? But let's find out. Yeah.

Sarah: Well, I happen to know that you are also an introvert. And so it feels like, uh, You know, that that pitching, I think, just a word pitching introverts probably go, oh, no. Thank you. Right? So how can This how can we [00:15:00] make this even better for introverts?

Like, that it doesn't feel So dreadful. Um, what do you

Rachel: suggest? So when I think, you know, Love the word pitching. I think of being at 1 of those horrible networking events where you have to go around and shake everybody's hand and be like, oh, we have not, you know, very high energy. Sounds terrible.

That's exhausting. I hate those. I don't do them. So what I recommend instead with this, um, is, First of all, to just remove attachment to the outcome, which I know we've talked about. But I I think as an introvert, that makes it easier for me because then it's not like, Oh, I have to put my extrovert face on.

It's more like, no. I'm here. This is how I talk. This is who I am. Let's see what happens.

Another thing I remind people always is that you don't have to respond at the very second somebody responds to you. These conversations take a long time. You know, they're time it takes time to build. So I see people get very anxious about their response time when they send out is like, oh, but if they email me that grand [00:16:00] way, I have to email them back or else we're gonna lose it. And no.

You know, don't if you don't want to. It's your business. No one's making you do anything. And another element of this is I always encourage people to write the way that they talk. A lot of times, Uh, as an introvert, it can be exhausting if I have to go and pretend to be more high energy or more whatever than I am.

But if I just write an email that sounds exactly like me, it doesn't have to sound sales y. It doesn't have to do anything except say, hey. This is who I am. Do you want to talk? That's a lot lower of a bar than having to feel like I'm doing the email equivalent of, like, getting my hair done and putting on a full face of makeup out of Fancy clothes and then going to talk to people.

So, um, oh, and the final thing is you don't have to do this all the time. Like, I do it, um, I do it usually daily because that's just easy for me, but there's also been times in my business where I've pitched very intensively for, like, 6 weeks and then ignored it for the rest of the year. So you can also gear it to [00:17:00] your own cycles of higher energy and when you have more resources to to be sort of more outward facing.

Sarah: Yeah. I love that.

Um, and I and I'll admit, I'm definitely not as regular as as you are. Um, I think I haven't Hitched any podcast in, like, probably more than a year. But I do know when the the third book comes out sometime down the road. That's what I'll do. Right?

And then I get very focused, and I can you know, I I get into this pitching mode. And, yeah, it feels good. It feels like, okay. I'm doing something very focused here. And it reminds me of a spreadsheet that that I then use.

So so I guess kind of the the wrapping up question is, like, well, Do you, yeah, do you suggest any kind of tracking method? How do you know whom you've already pitched? Worst Case is probably when you pitch [00:18:00] someone this the second time, and they're like, hey. You just sent me this 6 months ago. So what what kind of, uh, yeah, tools do you you recommend people use, if any?

Rachel: Yeah. I absolutely recommend a tracker. So we get to that's about, like, 2 thirds of the way through the workshop, and I'm like, okay. Everybody just gonna get real sad for a minute because we're having to talk about metrics. Yeah.

But Actually, it can be fun. It can be nice. I've, uh, I created a spreadsheet tracker that I share with everybody. I also have a Notion 1 that I use just I keep all my business stuff in Notion that I also share the template. And, um, what I always tell everyone is that, like, yes.

I know we don't like Spreadsheets, but this 1 is colored. It has pretty colors everywhere. It's nice. It's a friendly spreadsheet. I love that.

Um, we track as much information as we need 2, but no more. Because I also see people that either don't wanna track anything at all, and they're like, I'll just I'll just let the the ether of the Internet tell me what to do. Or They go the other 1. They're like, well, if I don't know their Social Security number, have I even kept [00:19:00] track? And I'm like, no.

You need their name. You need the last time they talk you talk to them, And you need, um, like, whether they're a yes or a no in their website. That's it. That's all you need. And so as long as you can keep up with those 4 things, like, that's all you need for the tracking.

Sarah: Right. Yeah. And and so maybe to come full circle, what you said at the beginning of the the episode is, like, It doesn't matter whether it's a yes or no. What matters is that you reached out. Right?

And so we're not really Tracking so much the yeses, but more we're more tracking that we've done it. Is is that

Rachel: correct? Yeah. So you track how you've done it. And then I always I also recommend people to take, after about 3 months, to, uh, track how you feel about it.

Like, does this feel good to you? Are you getting what you want out of this? If so, fantastic. Keep doing it. If not, then that's a really good sign that you can make a change Because there's no 1 right or wrong way to do this.

There's just the way that you make conversation and the way that [00:20:00] you reach out to people. So I always encourage people to Track those qualitative metrics over time as well.

Sarah: Yeah. Makes a lot of sense to feel into it because if it if it feels exhausting Sting and you're having all these 1 on 1 conversations. And at the same time, you need to give it some time.

Right? Yeah. So it's like, well, just by doing it 3 weeks is not gonna make your business explode. So it's kinda like use Common sense and and and maybe, yeah, do less of it, but keep consistency. So just, Yeah.

Adapt. Yeah. And readjust. Yeah. Exactly.

Wonderful. Well, tell us a A little bit about your structure of the workshop that you're gonna be doing for us on March sixth. Oh, I'm so excited.

Rachel: So we will come in, and we'll start by talking about, uh, why everyone hates pitching. And, um, I'll go through the 3 things that, Uh, not to do and 3 things to do.

So we'll keep it really simple. [00:21:00] Um, and then we will go into strategy for pitching. So, uh, how to how to create a strategy that actually makes sense for you and gets you what you want in your business, and that's where the beautiful little spreadsheet comes in because, of course, we have to track our metrics. Uh, we will then go into creating your, uh, pitching template. And so this is kind of a it's a foundational letter That you write.

And then you're gonna modify that slightly for each different person or podcast that you pitch to, but the general structure is always the same. So we'll talk through that, And then we'll wrap up with some, uh, information about vetting, you know, how to find where to find people, um, and what to do when you've actually got them. And, uh, I believe I'm trying to think. There's all sorts of resources attached to it at the end. So there's all kinds of gifts of, like, the the podcast trackers.

Uh, I have a 1 sheet, Uh, thing as well, but they can they can use too if they want to. And then, uh, we also have something for a press release, and I feel like I threw some oh, yeah. I have a template For asking for, uh, testimonials and referrals that [00:22:00] I also throw in there as well. So we end with gifts. Oh, and, of course, I forgot the most important part.

We do live feedback. So they will actually draft that letter while we're on the workshop together, and then they can get live feedback from me, uh, while they're on the workshop. Or if we're very introverted, and that sounds terrible, they can also email it to me afterwards, and we can just work on it via email. That's It's wonderful.

Sarah: Yeah.

Really, really looking forward to that. Thanks so much for for doing this. So, again, if you're listening to this and You're not yet part of the Humane Marketing Circle, you can still join us. And and so just go to humane dot marketing forward slash Workshop, and the page will be ready there. We're just asking for a donation, uh, between 15 and 27 dollars.

But, yeah, we'd love to have you and, uh, workshop. You're pitching with us. I'm really looking forward to to that. Thanks so much, um, for doing this. And something just just came to mind, and it left me again.[00:23:00]

What did it have to do with? Something that you said in the bonuses. 1

Rachel: sheet, press

Sarah: releases. Yeah. Press releases.

Exactly. Because we talked a lot about podcast pitching today, um, and then we talked about Service pitching. But you're right. There's the there's the testimonials. That's the other 1 you mentioned.

In a way, that's a pitch too. Right? It's a pitch. It has this kind of sales connotation, but essentially, it's just an ask. It's Yeah.

Asking for something, And that can be a testimonial. It can be for for, uh, yeah, an article that you want to have published. Um, any anything I'm forgetting?

Rachel: Yeah. Like, referral asks.

I do that a lot as well, um, and I encourage my clients to do it. Gosh. Anything. Uh, pitching to be to to teach a workshop in someone's space. I've done that a lot.

I also teach, uh, like, continuing legal education. Uh, so I do legal marketing stuff [00:24:00] as well. So, uh, I'll pitch to law societies or bar associations and say, hey. I'd love to do a CLE for you. So There's I mean, it's really I love that you reframed it as an ask because that's really what it is.

It's just, hey. Can we do this? Yeah. And that's so much easier to get behind than Give me something, which I think is most people approach pitching.

Sarah: Yeah.

Exactly. Can't wait. So Really? Yeah. Go Go to humane dot marketing forward slash workshop and join us on March sixth because we're gonna have lots of fun and, uh, doing some serious work as well.

So thanks so much, Rachel.

Rachel: Uh, I love it. I'm so excited. Thank you so much for having me. Thank you.

Allow me a moment to share a bit of context and details about the Marketing Like We're Human aka The Client Resonator program that's starting again on March 14th. This is my flagship 3month program that is tightly linked to this podcast, because it follows the same framework: the 7Ps of the Humane Marketing Mandala. It's a deep dive into these 7Ps to help you discover who you are, what your passion is and then bring more of you to your marketing. Market from within, so to speak.

But this is more than just marketing. This is building the foundation for your life's work! We start with the inner: the Passion, the Personal Power and then go to the Outer: the People, the Product, the Pricing, the Promotion and the Partnership with others. We go deep, in an intimate group, and come out transformed, with a business that we're truly aligned with.

It's a hybrid program with a 30 minute video to watch each week, a beautiful workbook with deep reflection and journal prompts and then a live group call to go deeper!

Who is it for? Whether you have 1 year, 5 years or 10 years business experience, it's never to late to go back to create the foundation and instead of just a business, create your life's works, so you can truly market from who you are.

The best is always to hear it from other participants. Have a look at humane.marketing/program. There are plenty of testimonials and a handful of in depth case studies.

Book a call with me now to discuss if this is the right next step for you at this point in your business.

In today's episode I'm welcoming Melissa Davis to talk about how to get clarity and direction in our business by knowing our values. We delve into the crucial process of translating our values into tangible actions and enabling us to authentically 'walk our talk.'

Join us as we explore how this deep reflection on our values not only aligns with our purpose but serves as a guiding force toward genuine business clarity.

This episode is a compass for solopreneurs navigating the path of purpose-driven business in the evolving landscape of conscious entrepreneurship.

In our conversation, Melissa and I addressed the following topics:

• How Melissa's own journey was shaped by her values and how they now influence her work with Humanity Inc.
• How we can translate our values into actions and 'walk our talk'
• How this deep reflection on our values really leads to business clarity
• and much more...

 

Ep 182

Sarah: [00:00:00] Hello, humane marketers. Welcome back to the humane marketing podcast, the place to be for the generation of marketers that cares. This is a show where we talk about running your business in a way that feels good to you, is aligned with your values, and also resonates with today's conscious customers, because it's humane, ethical, and non pushy. I'm Sarah Zannakroce, your hippie turned business coach for quietly rebellious entrepreneurs and marketing impact pioneers. Mama Bear of the Humane Marketing Circle and renegade author of Marketing Like We're Human and Selling Like We're Human.

If after listening to the show for a while, you're Ready to move on to the next level and start implementing and would welcome a community of like minded quietly rebellious entrepreneurs who discuss with transparency what works and what doesn't work in business, then we'd love to welcome you in our humane marketing circle. If you're picturing your [00:01:00] typical Facebook group, let me paint a new picture for you. This is a closed community of like Like minded entrepreneurs from all over the world who come together once per month in a Zoom circle workshop to hold each other accountable and build their business in a sustainable way. We share with transparency and vulnerability what works for us and what doesn't work so that you can figure out what works for you instead of keep throwing spaghetti on the wall and seeing what sticks. Find out more at humane dot marketing forward slash circle.

And if you prefer 1 on 1 support from me, my humane business coaching could be just what you need. Whether it's for your marketing, sales, General business building or help with your big idea like writing a book. I'd love to share my brain and my heart with you together with my almost 15 years Business experience and help you grow a sustainable business that is joyful and sustainable. If you love this [00:02:00] podcast, Wait until I show you my mama bear qualities as my 1 on 1 client. You can find out more at humane dot marketing forward slash coaching.

And finally, if you are a marketing impact pioneer and would like to bring humane marketing to your organization, Have a look at my offers and workshops on my website at humane dot marketing. Hello, friends, and welcome back to another episode. Today's conversation fits under the p of Personal power. If you're a regular here, you know that I'm organizing the conversations around the 7 p's of the humane marketing mandala. And if you're new here, this is your first time, a very big warm welcome.

But you may not know what I'm talking about, You can go to download your 1 page marketing plan with the humane marketing version of the 7 [00:03:00] Ps of marketing at humane dot marketing forward slash guanpage, the number 1 in the word page. And this comes with 7 email prompts to really help you reflect on these different piece for your business. So today, I'm talking to Melissa Davis about the importance of your values. And if you're familiar with my work, you know how much I care about values as well. I wrote about them in the Marketing Like Human book and they are also part of the Marketing Like We're Human program.

And it's really by talking with Melissa that I realized How knowing your values really gives you clarity and direction in your business. I always knew they were important and At the Marketing Like We're Human program is this foundational marketing program, but when she mentioned clarity and direction, I'm like, yeah, I'm totally with you. Before I tell you a little bit more about [00:04:00] Melissa, allow me to share a little bit more about The marketing like we're human, AKA the client resonator, my flagship program that I've been running since 2009 19 pre COVID, imagine that. And, uh, it starts again with a live cohort on March fourteenth. So today I was just talking to a potential participant and described the program to him as a program for deep thinkers.

I think you heard me say that before on this podcast. I really feel Like a deep thinker myself, and I feel like that's who I do my best work with. And so, yeah, it's a program for deep thinkers who want to create their marketing foundation once and for all. So starting from within, from their why, and aligned with whom they are and aligned with their values. So if you've been listening to this podcast for a while, you [00:05:00] are already familiar with the 7 p's of humane marketing.

So passion, Personal power, people, product, pricing, promotion, and partnership. And that's exactly the framework that the program follows. And besides in-depth videos and workbooks, we also have a weekly call to deepen the content of these topics. Even though I say it's about the marketing foundation, I often have participants who are not really new to business. So, Yes.

It's foundational. But oftentimes, in business, we come to the foundation maybe 2 years in, maybe 5 years in, or even 10 years in. And that's because first, we are just wanting to Do the marketing stuff, you know, the the the the how. We are interested in the how. And so a lot of times people come to me after being 2 years, [00:06:00] 5 years, or 10 years, and often that's kind of when they're pivoting In their business and they've been through the motions.

They've done what people told them to do in their marketing and just realized, A, it's not working. Or b, it may have been working, but it brought them the wrong clients or it's just not aligned with Them or their bigger why. So, yeah, that that's probably a third, um, uh, participant is Is the 1 that is looking for this bigger why. That has been in business and of course, I'm talking a little bit about myself and that's why I created the program. Um, so, you know, I had a business, a LinkedIn consultancy business for 10 plus years, but I just Felt like there's more than that.

There's more than just the business that pays the bills. And so that's really what this, uh, program also does. It Connects you with your why, it connects you with your [00:07:00] life's work, and, uh, creates this foundation that is aligned with who you are and allows you to bring more of you to your marketing. Yeah. So that's what we do.

We we go deep and we create the Foundation once and for all so that you can find out which marketing activities will flow for you. It's part Self development, part very pragmatic business best practices, part left, part right brain, mind and heart. And if that's resonating with you, have a look at the program details and watch some of the case studies, uh, as well at, uh, humane dot marketing forward slash program. And then let's get on a call to answer your questions and find out if it's a good Fit for you and where you currently are in your business. Okay.

Back to Melissa. So Melissa Davis is on a mission to make sure that every change [00:08:00] maker gets the clarity they need to reach their full potential and deliver their gifts to the world. Through her work with startups, entrepreneurs, and change makers, she's uncovered an Invaluable process for helping them get foundational clarity, love that, on their purpose and Packed so they can go out and into the world and start top taking action. So in our conversation, we addressed the following topics, how Melissa's own journey was shaped by her values and how they now influence her work with Humanity Inc. How we can translate our values into actions and actually walk our talk.

So going beyond Just that poster in our office that has our values up there. Well, how do we actually bring them into our business, bring them into our marketing? And then also how this deep reflection on our values really leads to business clarity and, uh, of [00:09:00] course, so much more. So Without further ado and blah blah, let's, uh, dive right in. Hey, Melissa.

So good to see you. Talk to you again. Really delighted to have you on the humane marketing podcast.

Melissa: Oh, I'm really excited to be here. Um, I love your work, Sarah, and I have your book right here.

I mean, um, rereading. Yeah. I I, um, I'm thrilled to To kind of sit down and, and, and really just dive into all of this because I think it's so important, um, To me as well. Um, and I just I really love I really love the work you're

Sarah: doing. Thank you.

And and maybe we can start by sharing how we Connected. I think that's always interesting for, uh, listeners to hear because, you know, there's this rare occasion where I do accept, Uh, a podcast pitch, but it's very rare. Most [00:10:00] often, it's, you know, conversations or, uh, Kind of like serendipity meetings like ours, uh, that then lead me to say, hey. I want you on my podcast. So why why don't you start by sharing that story?

I'm trying to remember the story.

Melissa: Did I reach I reached out

Sarah: to you. Yeah. You reached out to me where, uh, we were connected on the collect, Uh, the, um Oh, yeah.

Melissa: That's right.

Changing work collective. Changing work

Sarah: collective. Yeah. And so you reached out to me there. And then I was, like, Looking at your website and it said, Humanity Inc.

I'm like, oh my gosh. Yeah. Yes. You know, there's serendipity right there. Yeah.

Yeah. And so we

Melissa: have Well, that's what I thought when I read your, you know, your bio, and I I think I saw you post, um, may it may have been something about the book. Um, right. And it was just like, I've gotta connect to Sarah. You know, you know you know when when you see it.

You know you know when [00:11:00] you see That authenticity, um, show up. Yeah. And and it just it it felt like we needed to connect.

Sarah: Yeah. And here we are a few months later.

Thank you. Um, so, yeah, let's let's talk about Well, you mentioned authenticity. Uh, we wanna talk about values because that's the work you do. So maybe start us off there. Like, How did you get into this work and why did you call like, I have so many questions.

Why do you call Your website, Humanity Inc, and what does that have to do with values? I guess that's my

Melissa: first question. Okay. So there's like a little figure 8 of a story here. Um, so I got into values.

So values was the initial impetus for me to kind of leave, um, Um, traditional work and go off on my own. Um, so I'd worked with, um, a few I'd [00:12:00] Worked with a few different larger organizations and then, um, a few smaller startup organizations. And, Um, what triggered my exploration of values was actually misalignment to values. And I think that's probably how everybody starts to recognize This distance between them and something else that's happening. Right?

So, you know, what I recognized specifically in in The the the 1 startup that I'd been with for 5 years, um, was that we didn't have A singular set of values that drove us all in the same direction. And and so, You know, when I sat where I sat in the office, I was looking at this wall with these, you know, you can buy that big sticker with whatever writing you want on it. And I had the values of the organization. And I sat there every day and I rolled my eyes at this list of values that the organization said They were driven by, [00:13:00] and it was just bullshit. You know, I hope I can swear on your podcast.

I'm sorry. Yeah. No. It really wasn't. It was just and and so I started calling them eye roll values.

And I don't know if I started doing that at the time, but I definitely did later. Um, you know, and it's kind of like the worst thing that can, you know, erode an organization is having declaring that this is what we're all about, But we don't reflect that at all within our organization. So we kind of tried to dig in and and really understand What was happening in the organization? What were our, you know, um, driving values? What what came what brought us all together To grow in in the direction the organization wanted us to.

Um, and so eventually I left That organization, because no 1 was interested in looking at that with me. No 1. You know, I mean, particularly in the leadership, um, There. And so [00:14:00] that was really frustrating. So my first experience with exploring values was incredibly frustrating, but, but it, It just really led me to kind of dig in further.

And I, and I really developed this whole structure around it, you know, and, and continue to just Build on how I understood values and the roles that they played. And it was really focused on within organizations. Um, and I landed a a really fantastic job, um, And was incredibly excited about it. It was really aligned to my values. It was aligned to the work that I wanted to be doing with values embedded in my work.

Um, and I ended up being laid off 3 months later when the giant client that I was brought in to to support left. And as most layoffs go, they're the best thing that's ever happened to you. You know, I mean, if you've ever been laid off, it's devastating at the time. But if you ask 9 [00:15:00] out of 10 People who ever, you know, got laid off ends up being the best thing that's ever happened to them in their career. And that's true for me as well.

So, Um, you know, initially set off to continue my job search, um, and advance my career, and I just couldn't nothing. Nothing sounded good. I had a few offers. I just I couldn't stomach it. I would read these job descriptions, and I was just like, Do this.

I don't wanna do any of it. It all makes me nauseous. It all just felt so shallow and so Boring, and I just I just couldn't do it. I really, like I physically was like, Do it, um, which is funny because I was pretty driven before. Um, and and it really struck me at that point that I've been doing all this work of examining organizations.

Right? Like, why am I not turning this in on myself so that I could Figure out what this thing is that you [00:16:00] felt this fire, like just restlessness to do something completely different. Um, and it didn't occur to me until then to turn the work I was doing in values around on myself. Right. Uh, and that's really, that's the impetus for me going into business.

Now, at the time, that business became values to brand, and it was focused on marketing. Um, I'd had some experience in marketing. Um, I went off and I studied with Donald Miller and I became a guide. Um, I'm no longer, um, a StoryBrand guide, but it was incredibly valuable for me to kind of build, Um, you know, some authority in the marketing space and their, um, their model, um, and Structure around it is just so incredibly simple and and wonderful. Um, and so When was that?

So when was this whole? 2017 Teen maybe ish. No. Eights are not my thing. No, mine [00:17:00] neither.

You have to be 18. My husband is the master of the debates. Right. You know, like, what what time was Owen born? You know, like, I'm like, I don't know.

There's just my brain doesn't work like that. Right. Um, and I've worked in accounting. Um, so yeah. And and and so I continued in that, and And it just over time evolved into really understanding that what I was doing wasn't marketing And what I loved wasn't marketing.

I could do it and I became incredibly proficient at it and fantastic at writing and articulating What other people couldn't articulate well, um, and that is that's a real gift of mine. Um, it's But I discovered it really wasn't marketing. And what I really wanted to do was help people get clarity because I started working with organizations, it was very small Organizations, but organizations, um, [00:18:00] in their marketing efforts. And I had a lot of technology background, so it was really easy to kind of like dive in. But they had they actually had no clarity around how they wanted to talk about what they needed to in their marketing.

And so I kind of went, I need to be back here further. I need to be earlier in the journey. Mhmm. Um, and Mhmm. Because that's what I that's my gift.

I I'm really fantastic at pulling putting dots together, and it all starts with values. Values just they there's So many roles that values play. It's we we often look at values in this very thin kind of, um, lens Of what's important to me. You're right. And values are so, so much more than that.

And there's so much tangible evidence in our lives to tell us what our values are and to explore them and to reveal themselves to us. And so it's really accessible and it offers so much information [00:19:00] about our gifts and about our passion and What we really want to be doing with our lives and who to surround ourselves with and how to go at it. And so, um, And I was so passionate about doing work that mattered and solving problems that really advance humanity. Not, You know, not this localized sense of I just wanna make my life better, which is fantastic, and I think that That's a step. Um, but what really was important to me was to work with clients who had a sew that.

Right? This idea that This work matters because I wanna help solve this bigger problem in the world. Right. Yeah. And so it eventually changed to Humanity Inc.

Sarah: Okay. So the the website then changed to Humanity Inc. Yeah. And And, yeah, really, there was this huge resonance when I when I saw the [00:20:00] website, Humanity Inc, but then also when we had This conversation a few months back when you were sharing about the values, and I'm like, yeah, that's how I'm talking about the worldview And how, you know, in the in the 7 p's of humane marketing, you you start with passion and personal power, Which is exactly what you said. I'm earlier in the journey, and so that's what you're helping your clients with.

Um, and and 1 word that really stood out as Well, is the word that you use clarity. And and I have been starting to say foundation. So it

Melissa: Like That's what I end up call I call myself a foundational clarity

Sarah: coach. Ah, there you go. Yeah.

So so it really is that that saying where it's like, well, Yeah. You need clarity, and then you need that clarity to build your foundation. And that's what in a way, that's what you did. You figured out your values, And then you brought those values into your business and into your marketing and called it [00:21:00] humanity, Inc. Because you care about these

Melissa: things.

And so you want And my clients care about those things. Right? You want to help people. Yeah. Our our niche, our clients value what we value and they believe what we believe.

Exactly. And it's within the scope of the values that we are driving and making central to our business. Right? We have, You know, we we have a lot of beliefs and we have, um, a number of values that are very central to us. And, you know, what we do is kind of like, what's the, Um, what's the stake in the ground that I'm putting out there and what are the values that drive that?

And our niche, You know, our, our customers and our clients, they share those values and they believe what we believe. And so, you know, it drives me crazy when I see an entrepreneur trying to understand the values of their niche. And I'm like, you have to understand your values. Right. Your values.

Absolutely. Start with you. Decide your niche. Yeah. [00:22:00] Mhmm.

Yeah. And then you may have to figure

Sarah: out the next thing I can do. Out there is so outward focused. Right? Yes.

We feel like we're wasting time if we're look looking inside. And so I guess the question then, The logical next step question is, well, knowing my values, how do I turn those values into tangible Actions or, you know, business advice. So

Melissa: take us there. Oh, that's the most exciting part. I mean, Our values provide so many clues as to what our outward action needs to look like.

Um, you know, and they play different roles. You know, some of our Our highest values are part of the problem that we solve for our niche. [00:23:00] And that's a little bit of a process, but that really that 1 in particular kind of blows people's minds. Right? We're all, I think at our core, 1 of our deepest drives as human beings beyond safety and belonging Is to live in alignment to our values because that leads us to this Fulfillment, right, and to the these higher levels in the Maslow's hierarchy of needs, the pathway to doing that is actually living in alignment to our values.

At the base of that Maslow's hierarchy of needs, values don't play, um, a role. They don't play as big of a role In, um, in making sure that we're safe, making sure that we're fed, making sure that we have a roof over our house. Right? It's kinda hard to focus on values When we have to take care of our basic needs. Beyond that, as we, you know, as we move through belonging and then and then further up, our drive [00:24:00] Is to feel passionate and to feel fulfilled and happy and surround ourselves with people that are like us.

And so, um, there's good sides to that, and there's not so good sides to that. Right? You know, our values kind of shift and evolve A little bit over time, they they reprioritize, um, but there is this massive drive to do that. And so what happens throughout our journey, wherever we are, whatever we're doing and whatever we desire, there's often a value of ours that we struggle to live. Right?

So our values, um, we can have really strong values for something and not do a very good job of living it. Um, if if a value is not lived, we feel this Dissonance, this cognitive dissonance. And it it can actually make us feel sick. So we know it when it happens. We we don't feel good about ourselves.

We don't feel good about our lives. We don't Feel right? We feel unfulfilled. Um, [00:25:00] and so what we do is we seek to close that gap, Right? In a lot of different ways.

Some are healthy and some are not healthy. Um, but we reach urgency See, when we realize I've gotta do something that allows me to live this value, um, at a much higher level. And so ultimately, every problem that any entrepreneur solves is tied to helping our Clients and customers close the gap on a value that they're not living very well. Mhmm. And we may directly do it or we may indirectly do it, but we've got to And how we connect to living their values.

And so that is 1 of the most direct ways that our values play into how we show up as entrepreneur, but they also determine our differentiation. I wanna work with, You know, I can work with any marketing expert. What differentiates you, Sarah, [00:26:00] you know, and your teaching Is your values. Right? Um, and it's 1 element of it, but it's probably the most important element of differentiation is I wanna work with somebody who shares my values.

Right? It's important to me to get visible. I'm talking about myself right now. It's important for me to get visible. I have something really important that I want and need the world to know, and I have something to offer that I think is really important because We need more change makers to get out there and do the work of solving the big problems so that we can advance humanity.

Right? Exactly. Okay. That value that I'm closing there for myself and for my clients is accountability. It's this sense of I must, I I know I have a higher potential and I've got to live it.

I have this accountability to it. Um, if I sit here and I don't get visible and I don't do it Right. I'm not living my value of accountability. I'm sitting on my [00:27:00] butt and I'm wasting away and I'm not doing the thing. Um, and what I'm drawn to with you is is your value of Living in in your conscience, living in showing up in a humane way And living in compassion.

And so that is How you do the work that you do. And it's important to me to align with somebody that does that because I don't wanna go out and spam The world with anything. Right? I can't this this interview is incredibly timely because I just really, like, hit my limit on the number of Invitations that I get on LinkedIn that are immediately followed by a pitch. I saw your

Sarah: post.

Yeah.

Melissa: I'm like, And not doing it anymore. Um, and I've said that before and I still do it because I'm like, what if they're [00:28:00] like the most wonderful connection that I ever, you know, Um, I'm probably an eternal optimist, and I really I really don't like to shut people down and live in that energy. Um, but then it happens, and I'm deeply disappointed. And I'm like, why were you disappointed in this, Melissa?

Well, it's that value. Right? Yeah. Um, so we work with people, right? There are operating values that we have, and there are differentiation.

You know, they're how we show up To do the work that we do. And we must really embrace those values because that's what other people are are very much attracted to. We have very little competition in the world. Right? Mhmm.

Very little competition in the world because Yeah. The way that you do it, the uniqueness Of how you do it is incredibly different from everyone around you. Yeah. There are plenty of people, right, That are drawn to it, but you have to get visible. I know we were talking about that before.

So you still need to get out there. [00:29:00] Um, but then Yeah. But that's the targeted

Sarah: action that we were saying. Well, how do you turn this these values that are internal Into something external. Um, well, you just said it.

Right? It's like, okay, I wanna be visible, but I don't wanna just be visible in any kind of spammy way. Right? Yeah. You would never do that and just start spamming everybody, um, um, LinkedIn with with your pitches.

So So it's like the value gets transformed or transmitted to the action that you're taking. And And for you, it's values. For me, it's worldview or the humane approach to whatever you do. And It's so true. And another thing that came up when you mentioned the Maslow's pyramid, I'm like, yeah.

That's that's really good because my I call my people and I know you are a deep thinker as well. Right? That's kind of for me, that's a flag. It's like, this person is a deep Thinker, just like me. And they don't, you [00:30:00] know, they they they look at things.

Yeah. They just think Deeply about things and they care. Uh, you know, humane marketing is for the generation of marketers that care. It's this deep deep Care and thinking about things. Um, and you're right.

That doesn't happen at the bottom of the pyramid. Right? It's like you Have evolved, uh, or Yeah. Well, you can't

Melissa: the privilege as well. You have the privilege.

Exactly right. And have the privilege to. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

It's it's too it's too much. Um, it had it happens. There are some people who can who can do that And who are struggling to to make it, um, for whatever reason, um, through the hierarchy of needs, it happens. But it's very it's it's too much to ask for someone who is who is struggling to Strictly aligned to their values, [00:31:00] um, and to focus on that and and to be able to do that. And it's it's, uh, yeah.

Sarah: Yeah. And we need to, you know, understand that and show empathy because we're not in the same situation.

Melissa: So Exactly. Right. And have someone that they can work with.

Right. Or something that we can offer. Right. That, um, is more accessible.

Sarah: Exactly.

Yeah. This whole conversation also made me think of, uh, another conversation I had on the podcast about activism, Like business, uh, as activism. Right? And in a way, we're we're almost talking about that here because Especially because we care, you say, you know, humanity. You mentioned the current, uh, challenges.

So in a way, it's almost like it's Borderline activism because we are truly just saying, no, we're not just doing it for the profit. We're really wanting it to do also [00:32:00] to move humanity or, you know, solve the problems we were facing right now.

Melissa: Yeah. And it is like, I, you know, I, I use word, put a stake in the ground, you know, what do you stand for? Uh, and I think that Oftentimes that gets confused with, I have to have an opinion about everything, or I have to show my solidarity With what's happening in the world or I have to make a statement, and that's not what it means.

What it means is I understand the lane That I'm passionate about. Mhmm. I understand where my stake in the ground Is and where people are looking to me for my thoughts and opinions and solidarity and strength. Mhmm. And, Um, I've I I and I do struggle with this even.

You know, um, you know, when you when you look at what's happening in the world and people around you look for A [00:33:00] statement. Right. Something big happens. And I think we all have to kind of look internally and say, what What is my lane? Is this something that the world is looking to me for my thoughts Um, there that's a big difference between reaching out to the people in your lives who And having conversations.

Yeah. And having conversations. That's not what I'm talking about. Right. Yeah.

Um, but I think it's very challenging. I think the world is is, And social media specifically conflates this sense of having a stake in the ground with Showing up to every big thing that happens and demanding that you put a stake in the ground in a space that's not yours. And But it's such a good point. Yeah. Quite a big challenge to me.

And I, um, have to remind myself all the [00:34:00] time that That's not my I didn't put a stake in the ground on that fight. If I had, then it is demanded that I that I Have something to say, I suppose. Yeah. Um, you know

Sarah: what I use for this? I use the 17 sustainable development goals for this with my clients, And I have you know, this is the UN who basically looked at all the current challenges that we have and said, okay.

Here are 17 that are currently really pressing. Um, and so I have my clients look at that and say, look. All of these problems right now are super important. Uh, all of them, all 17, but you can't focus your energy on all 17. So Choose 1 or

Melissa: 2 maximum.

I would argue.

Sarah: I would argue. 1. Yeah. 1 is this number 17 is partnership.

And so I feel like that applies to, like, almost everything because we need partnership and [00:35:00] community in

Melissa: every That's a how though. It

Sarah: yeah. It's it's almost like it's kind of a side. Right? Because the other ones are are, you know, Water, ocean, um, climate, like electricity

Melissa: and all of that.

So so yeah. It's almost like unity. You know? Exactly. So

Sarah: that's why I say Pick 2, but make sure a partnership is 1 of them.

Right. But but then yeah. Exactly what you say. Then it's like, well, if, You know, that there's something going on that has to do with that topic, then, yes. You know, people expect you to maybe make a statement.

Um, but if it's not, then then it's not it's not your role to to to pitch in. So I I really like how you said it. Is it my lane? Is this expect because I use the word worldview, And there as well, it could be like, oh, I have to always express my worldview about this and this and this. Yeah.

Like, no. I I [00:36:00] actually don't feel good about Because then we have the polarity, you know, with all these wars that are going on right now. And so it's like, well, no. I don't need to say, you know, if I'm I'm not usually, I'm not on any side, but I yeah. It's not part of My role, even I guess, as an activist, it wouldn't be part of of my role in this case.

Melissa: Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, and There are times when I think that we do need to make a stand. There are definitely, you know, Points where it's incredibly relevant to our work to do it. Um, and and then we should.

You know, it's just deciding, Is this because we feel the pressure to, you know, is this something that's relevant Yeah. To be in my work? Um, not just everyone's making a statement, and therefore I need to. Mhmm. So [00:37:00] Because, of course, we have opinions and we have thoughts and we have, you know, I mean, um, and explorations and confusion and, you know, and And questions and it but it doesn't mean that that and and I'm talking about a brand.

I'm talking about, You know, us as humans behind a brand and a business and this stake in the ground that we've put around, what do we stand for? And this is why I'm doing the work that I'm doing. Right? That's what I'm talking about. And it's it is.

It's incredibly challenging. However, understanding what you Stand for understanding your values, understanding, as you said, the roles that I play. What is my role in my work? And then how do I show up through that role to make a statement, um, or to Further my stake in the ground or to explain or whatever, that's incredibly helpful to take action. Mhmm.

Because actions are how we live our values. Right? What are the roles that, Um, [00:38:00] that embody me and who I am that allow me to live my values. So, um, they're, they're incredibly helpful for understanding when it's right, you know, and how to, um, Take action on anything, not just, you know, not just activism, but but on anything. How do I show up on social media?

How do I show up? It's walking the talk. Yeah. How do I show up? Right?

Those are the roles. Mhmm.

Sarah: I wanna talk a little bit about The idea of changing values. So not us necessarily, um, but more like Humanity at large. Right?

I feel like we're going through a huge shift of changing values. Um, right now, Uh, maybe we're still in the middle of the storm, but we're definitely getting towards something, um, Kind of more conscious and, you know, at [00:39:00] least the the probably the the people that we hang out with, Uh, have very different values from maybe, uh, our grandparents had. So how have you looked at this also kind of in from a larger Effective, you know, how do generations how do their values change?

Melissa: Yeah. It's really interesting to look at, And it's not something that I've spent a lot of time focusing on, you know, the the the evolution of values because Cultures have these kind of underlying, you know, values that drive them.

Um, communities have values that drive them. Generations have values is that drive them. Um, and so there are all these different flavors of these group values. Right. And, you know, and then we have our individual values.

And values come from a lot of different places and named a couple, but Religion, our family, you know, our culture, right? There are all these kind of [00:40:00] outside forces that impose values on us. Right. And then we have these innate values, these things that we're, like, born with or that develop from experiences that we have in our lives. And for whatever reason, they're all there, for right or for wrong.

And, you know, values, We often put this kind of positive slant on values, and there's this incredibly powerful driver that values can have on us. But there's also dark side of values, Right? Values are how we show up in our bias. Values are how we show up in our judgment. And so they Aren't always positive drivers in our lives.

So it's really interesting to look at, you know, how they influence How we move around in the world and how we see things in front of us. Um, and so It's fascinating to look at. It is fascinating to look at how things shift and change because those cultural values, those [00:41:00] religious values, right? I think what's happening is that we're questioning more Than we were before. Right.

So I think all of that's still happening. Right? There's always an evolution of cultural values. There's always an evolution of Religious values and of course through generations, those values that get passed on change too because our parents have different experiences in the world and they want to Still different things in us. And so there's just an evolution that happens.

But I think what's happening now is that we're questioning it more. I think we're going, is that mine? Is it really my responsibility to carry on this value? Is it it's not mine. It's my parents.

It's it's it's this religion that I don't wanna have anything to do with anymore. It's this Culture in America that's toxic. Right? It's not mine. I think we're just [00:42:00] I think we're more introspective.

Well, general You and I

Sarah: also everybody. About change makers. Right? And so just this word change maker, well, obviously, We want change. And so, clearly, our values can be the same as the values that, Uh, our parents or grandparents had.

Yep. So we are looking for something that is different than we have today. And so, necessarily, our values need to be not according to, you know, what has worked in the past 50 years. So I I feel like, yeah, that's fascinating too. And I'm sure you kinda see a pattern with your clients as well that often the values are,

Melissa: you know, similar.

So Of course, they are because my clients value what I value and they believe what I believe. Now that doesn't mean they're exactly the same by any stretch. And that's the beautiful thing. I think I would be bored out of my skull if [00:43:00] every client I worked with wanted to do what I did and had the exact same values and the same experiences. That's not even close to true.

Right. Their experiences with their values are so incredibly different. They show up in so many different ways, and they drive them in different ways. And the combination we have these like, oh, I get so excited talking about this. There's this magical combination of these values that we have that come together That, like, create they they they make a shape out of this fire that we have.

And it's So cool to see that come together. I often could see it coming together before they do. And so they're like, I don't know why you're so excited about this. But, you know, you can you can really see it. You can see the essence of Sarah when I see that magical combination and Why this stake in the ground is so important to you and how these gifts that you have come together in this way that allow you to go out and do that.

[00:44:00] And, um, yeah, I think we're, we're just, um, we're getting to the point where We're invested in in understanding ourselves at a really deep level, and I think that's expanding. I think people Know that it's possible. You know, we we kinda have this when we talk about conscious or, you know, inhumane marketing and, Um, being more compassionate about the world and open minded. And when we look at social media, we're like, ugh. Right?

However, social media and the Internet have also done amazing things for open mindedness and for Exposing us to ideas and thoughts and solutions and pathways that we never would have been exposed to. And so I think that is also contributing to this idea of it's possible for me to move from this [00:45:00] state of being to another State of being or from this state of action to another state of action and to experience this transformation and this capability that I have To go out and do something big. Mhmm. And so for some people, what would just be this little, like, forever frustration Of knowing they have potential that, you know, that just dies with them at the end of their lives. They're realizing that there are pathways to take action on it And do something about it.

And to me, that's the the most tragic is to have that and to know that you have this fire, to know that you have this Big potential and to never have taken action on it.

Sarah: Yeah. What you described before is basically the definition of a change maker. Right? It's like, okay, I I know I I can contribute to this change.

And and, um, I was having another conversation about pivots. I [00:46:00] was part of some summit about pivots, and I feel like there's Such an awakening of, uh, pivots now because people are kinda like you a few years ago. Right? You're in this corporate job, And you just like, I know we can do something much bigger than

Melissa: what we're doing. I didn't even know what it looked like.

It

Sarah: was just Yeah. It's just like this Inner knowing, and it's like, well, I need to get out of this prison, and I just need to create it myself. And I feel like there's a lot of and a lot of people in this

Melissa: Situation. And to be clear, I had to take a part time job to do that. Of course.

No. That's the other thing. It's like you can't just jump ship and then Well, you can. But I I wanna, like, you know, I hate when, you know, it seems to somebody from the outside that, you know, you just make this jump. I just decided, and now I'm an entrepreneur, and I'm making a million no.

That's not what happened. Right? You know? Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. So, [00:47:00] um, there is Nothing wrong with taking the step and saying, okay, what do I need to do to allow myself to take this The step towards what I know is bigger. And I'm like, you know

Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

I I I feel like we're at a very Promising crossroad, um, of of change. So I'm just super grateful that you're helping all these change makers find clarity because That is the 1 thing that can waste you a lot of time if you don't have clarity. Right?

Melissa: Um, and I'm so grateful that you're helping them Figure out how to get out into the world with the message that they, that they have and need to deliver and to grow. Because if we can't grow, we can't impact.

Yeah. Period. That's the thing. I mean, that's that's it. Right?

Right.

Sarah: You know? I feel like that's a a beautiful place to to close. This was wonderful. Thanks so much for [00:48:00] being here.

2 things. Um, please do share where people can find out more about humanity and your work on clarity and values. So share that. And then I have another last

Melissa: question. Okay.

Um, so you can find me on my website, Um, humanityinc dot world. Um, and you can find me on LinkedIn, um, at melissa highsley hyphen davis. And if you have show notes, so we can put it there so that you don't have to try to spell that. Um, those are the 2 primary places that I hang out.

Sarah: Yeah.

And my my last question that I always ask is, what are you grateful for today or this week? This year, I can say because we're at the beginning of the

Melissa: year. Um, well, I'm grateful that you invited me on this podcast and I was really excited to be here because I I really do love your work so much. Um, and let's say this year, [00:49:00] um, I'm grateful for Realizing that I needed to bring other people into my work. Mhmm.

And for that shift of I need to create this myself to I need to collaboration has always been really important to me, but but there's this I mean, you know, you're a creator too. And I don't know. There is it's tough. It's tough when you're creating To shift from creating to sharing. And and so it's, um, I'm grateful for that shift.

I'm very grateful for that shift, and I'm grateful that I'm getting more comfortable being a lot more visible. And so I'm really excited, um, about everything. Yay.

Sarah: Thank you for moments. Right?

It's kinda like Exactly.

Melissa: That's what I [00:50:00] live for. And it's really fun when they're your own too.

Sarah: Yeah. It's amazing.

Thanks so much for being here and, uh, to be continued, of course. To be continued. Thank you. As always, I hope you got some great value from listening to this episode. Hopefully, uh, that makes you think deeper about your values and how they impact your work.

In order to find out more about Melissa and Her work, go over to humanity inc dot world, and you can also get her foundational clarity canvas at humanity inc dot dot com forward slash foundational dash clarity dash canvas. And if you are looking for others who think like you, why not join us in the humane marketing circle? You can find out more about The circle at humane dot marketing forward slash circle, and you find the show notes of this episode at [00:51:00] humane dot marketing forward slash h m 1 8 2. And on this beautiful page, you'll also find a series of free offers, such as the humane business Festo and the free Gentle Confidence mini course, as well as my 2 books, Marketing Like We're Human and Selling Like We're Human. Thanks so much for listening and being a part of a generation of marketers who cares for yourself, your clients, and the planet.

We are change makers before we are marketers, so go be the change you want to see in the world. Speak soon.

In today's episode I'm excited to welcome Louise Taylor, a heart-centered marketing expert and a member of our Humane Marketing Circle. Louise brings a wealth of experience from her transformative journey in both corporate and creative realms.

In this enlightening conversation, we explore how truly understanding yourself is key to standing out authentically in business. We discuss the profound impact of authenticity in resonating with your clients, and delve into how tools like the Fascinate assessment can illuminate your unique wiring.

Join us for this insightful episode filled with practical tips for bringing your true self into your marketing and connecting deeply with those you serve.

In this value-packed episode, Louise and I addressed:

• How Louise left her 20 year Corporate career and had to figure out how to market herself
• How taking the time to really figuring out who you are and how you're wired is the key to stand out authentically (and it's what we do so well in the MLWH program, which Louise participated in as well)
• How authenticity gives you deep inner peace and confidence to show up and stand out and resonate with your clients
• How Fascinate, an assessment created by Sally Hogshead truly helps you understand how the world sees you - and how you're fascinating
• How to bring this knowledge into your marketing (bring more of you to your marketing, as I always say)
• and much more...

[00:00:00] Hello, Humane Marketers. Welcome back to the Humane Marketing Podcast, the place to be for the generation of marketers that cares. This is a show where we talk about running your business in a way that feels good to you, is aligned with your values, and also resonates with today's conscious customers because it's humane, ethical, and non pushy.

I'm Sarah Zanacroce, your hippie turned business coach for quietly rebellious entrepreneurs and marketing impact pioneers. Mama bear of the humane marketing circle and renegade author of marketing like we're human and selling like we're human. If after listening to the show for a while, you're ready to move on to the next level and start implementing and would welcome a community of like minded.

Quietly rebellious entrepreneurs who discuss with transparency what works and what doesn't work in business Then we'd love to welcome you in our humane marketing circle If you're picturing your [00:01:00] typical facebook group, let me paint a new picture for you. This is a closed community of like minded entrepreneurs from all over the world who come together once per month in a zoom circle workshop to hold each other accountable and build their business in a sustainable way.

We share with transparency and vulnerability what works for us and what doesn't work so that you can figure out what works for you. Instead of keep throwing spaghetti on the wall and seeing what sticks. Find out more at humane. marketing circle And if you prefer one on one support from me, my Humane Business Coaching could be just what you need.

Whether it's for your marketing, sales, general business building, or help with your big idea like writing a book, I'd love to share my brain and my heart with you, together with my almost 15 years. Business experience and help you grow a sustainable business that is joyful and sustainable. If you love this [00:02:00] podcast, wait until I show you my Mama Bear qualities as my one-on-one client, and find out more at Humane Marketing slash coaching.

And finally, if you are a Marketing Impact pioneer and would like to bring Humane Marketing to your organization, have a look at my offers and workshops on my website at Humane.

Hi there friends, thank you for being here. Today's conversation fits under the P of I'd say personal power and passion. So if you're a regular here, you know that I'm organizing the conversations around the seven Ps of the Humane Marketing Mandala. And if this is the first time you hear about this, you can download your one page marketing plan with the seven Ps of Humane Marketing at humane.

marketing forward [00:03:00] slash one. Page. The number one and the word page. And this comes with seven email prompts to really help you reflect on these different P's for your business. So it's not a, a seven step list on how to do humane marketing, but it's a reflective so that you get to actually be in charge and be this responsible, uh, business owner and human being to, um, put the thoughts into that kind of.

groundwork for humane marketing. All right. So today I sit down with Louise Taylor, a fellow marketer, HSP, and member of the humane marketing circle, and we're getting ready to co host another collab workshop, and this time the topic is standing out. Authentically. So Louise Taylor is a heart centered brand and marketing leader with 20 plus years of experience in corporate, [00:04:00] B2B, B2C financial services, and purpose driven businesses.

Add to that a decade of expertise in creative services, including design and photography, as an entrepreneur and creative soul early in her career. A high sensory coach, fascinate. So, certified advisor, high sensitive person and mentor. She naturally focuses on creating sincere and meaningful connections with all she engages with.

As the founder of Firefly Effect, she brings a discerning and analytical approach and leverages her breadth of experience to help purpose driven and mission led organizations achieve their business goals and create a positive impact on those they serve. So in this value packed episode with Louise, we addressed how she left her 20 year corporate career and had to figure out how to market herself, how taking the time during COVID to [00:05:00] really figuring out how Who she was and how she's wired and how that really is the key to stand out authentically.

And it's what we do so well in the Marketing Like We're Human program, which Louise also participated in, in those COVID years. We also talked about how authenticity gives you deep inner peace and it gives you the confidence to show up. and stand out and resonate with your clients. We then talked about how fascinate, uh, which is this assessment created by Sally Hogshead, truly helps you understand how the world sees you and how you're fascinating.

So it's one of these assessments dad, um, looks from the outside in where most of the other assessments, Myers Briggs, Enneagram, et cetera, uh, look from The inside out. So how you see the world, how to then bring this knowledge into your marketing, as I [00:06:00] say, always bring more of you to your marketing. Um, but we need to actually figure out what is more of me.

And so that's what this assessment and, and the work with fascinate helps us understand, well, this is more of me. So now let me bring more of that into our marketing. Both Louise and I share our assessment results. And so that kind of gives you some information about how, uh, the world sees me and the world sees Louise and how we actually live that in our businesses and much, much more.

So have a listen, and if you crave more and want to learn more about these seven fascinate languages and have heartfelt conversations in a safe haven, then join us on February 7th, uh, have a look at humane. marketing, uh, forward slash workshop. So let's dive in right now. Hi, Louise. [00:07:00] So good to hang out with you.

Welcome to the Humane Marketing Podcast. Thank you. So great to be here. I'm so excited to be able to connect with you again. As always. It's always a great conversation. Yeah. And we, we did some prepping for this one because we're also collaborating on another collab workshop. And I'm really, really excited to have you on February 7th for the workshop that we do together around February 7th.

You know, standing out authentically, but this is kind of like a teaser, uh, of this, uh, one on an hour and a half workshop. Um, but we're not just teasing. We're always giving great value as well. Right. For people who, who are, um, valued listeners, they, they know this about us and me. So I look forward to dig in.

I was thinking maybe you can start with, um, you know, how you. Your story and how you moved [00:08:00] out of corporate, I was gonna say America, but corporate Canada. . How you moved corporate Canada, outta corporate Canada and then as, as a marketer, and then started your own business and, and then realized. Oh, okay.

This is a different ball game. I have to now, you know, put myself out there and I have to sell myself and I still want to do it authentically. So, yeah, take us there. Tell us that story. How that evolved. Thank you. Yeah. So, you know, I spent. 20 years in corporate marketing and, you know, my last role as a, as a marketing leader, building marketing teams and functions and strategic, you know, making them a strategic function.

And so it was very demanding. Um, I loved the work that I did. I loved, um, the learning that I got from all of those 20 years in, um, you know, developing myself as a marketer. And then in 2019, um, I [00:09:00] was, my, my role was eliminated and I was packaged and as part of a reorg, um, and then COVID hit and, you know, my initial thoughts were jump right back in and, you know, and, and get on that hamster wheel again.

And when COVID hit, I had an opportunity to really sit back and kind of go, what do I really love? What would I love and instead of. Thinking that I need to do this. I mean, it was a single mom. I, you know, when my kids are older at the time, they're still, you know, what I call on my payroll because we're always supporting our kids.

But, you know, I also had an opportunity at that time to stop and really reflect. And for me. Being authentic was something that I really struggled with. I'm an HSP, and in a fast moving corporate environment, there isn't always room, uh, for us. It's not always understood. Um, and so I, you know, I I tended to kind of push all of [00:10:00] that aside.

Um, and when I had that opportunity to stop, I realized, you know, I really want to take everything I've learned over the last 20 years and bring back. I should mention before I spent 20 years in corporate. I had my own business. I was an entrepreneur for 15 years. Prior to jumping into corporate. And so there was a part of my heart that was like, I can help people, but I want to do it in a way that feels authentic to me.

I need to honor that part of myself. And so I embarked on this journey to say, well, where do I go from here? I know a lot of things I've built brands. I've built, you know, marketing teams and, um, and I love so many different aspects of it, but how do I distill that down? To me, you know, going from a team of 15 people to one.

And so there was a part of me that was like, how do I even talk about who I am and how I'm different because as a marketer, you know, you do a lot for other people and you're [00:11:00] building on this communication. But I didn't know how to talk about how I was different. And so that felt like, you know, the cobbler's got no shoes scenario where I, you know, I didn't know how to talk about how I was different.

And so I embarked on this self, you know, this journey to try to self discovery. And then I stumbled upon, uh, fascinate. And for me, I'm, you know, I'm a junkie of all of the Myers Briggs and StrengthsFinders and Enneagram, like I've done them all and I love them because they've helped me understand who I am from the inside out.

But what I loved about Fascinate when I took the test was that it's an outside in perspective. It's how the world sees me when I'm at my best. And when I took it, it I had an aha moment because it helps you understand the languages that you speak when you're in that flow state and you're excited and you're energized like you and I are doing right now.

Um, I [00:12:00] am a passion person. So I speak the language of communication and connection. Um, but I'm also. A very, you know, 1 minute, I can be very in tune with somebody in the next minute. I can be a hermit. I can be this very quiet person who's always analyzing a situation. And I always felt that there was something wrong with me.

Maybe there's something broken about me that I'm these opposite ends of the spectrum. And as it turns out, it's actually just who I am. And so when I learned that this is who I am, and it's actually my superpower. I was able to kind of start leaning into that a little bit more, not a little bit, a lot more.

And I embraced it to the fact, to the point where, you know, the anthem that I created for myself is my guiding, is my guidepost. I, it helps me now distinguish myself and, and lean in and just embrace that I'm different and I'm okay with that now. You know, it was, it helped me understand and [00:13:00] embrace that, that difference.

And so now I've incorporated that and it's part of what I do because I, I believe so strongly in, um, giving me the language, giving me the words that I could confidently feel like, yeah, this is really me. And here's how it's me. This is how it really is me. So it's going to be, I feel, yeah, I feel so obviously, you know, with marketing, like we're human and this is very aligned with, with what we're doing here.

And And was it also in, in the COVID years that you, uh, came across the Marketing Like a Human program? I remember you reached out to me. I'm like, Oh, a fellow marketer. That is so great that other marketers are interested in, in that work. Was it during that time as well? 100 percent because as I was trying to discover, you know, there has to be a better way.

I mean, I was in financial services and I still work in financial services in what I do now on my own, but I get to choose and I [00:14:00] work very purpose driven mission centered businesses. Um, that became really important to me and I didn't really know anybody else. Who felt that way about marketing. It's like, we do really good things and there's, there's a need for what we do.

And there's a love of. Building strong brands that are authentic, but I was really searching for a community and a group that felt the same way that I did. And so my research led me to you, um, and you know, I bought your first book and I did your program and I was like, okay, I want to embrace and learn everything there is to know about what's been in my heart, but I haven't really, I've felt like this lone wolf in a sea of, you know, marketers who are all about the bottom line and let's.

You know, what are the sales targets and everything? And to me, it didn't feel, that's not me. That doesn't feel like who I am. I care about, you know, doing good work. And I care [00:15:00] about making, you know, achieving results, but it's not what's driving me. What's driving me is how do we do good in the world? And how do we make it?

A better place through what we know as marketers. Yeah. I feel like you're a really good poster child for marketing. Like we're human because I mean, really like, you know, 2019 we're now in 2024. That is a. A very short framework for launching a business. And so it just shows me that you gave yourself that deep reflection.

And yes, probably the first or two first two years were a bit slow. Right. It's like, okay, who am I? How am I different? How can I be authentic and yet stand out? But. You gave yourself that time and invested in finding out who you are, and now you're bringing that to the table and look at you now, you have a thriving business.

I mean, it really shows that [00:16:00] slow and deep really, really works. And I think that's what we want to talk about here a little bit. Like, what, what, you know, why would we even have. Pay attention to, uh, a workshop that's called, um, stand out authentically, right? Most people would just want to stand out, you know, bottom line.

It's like, okay, I want to stand out, but we're talking here about standing out and being authentic and being different. So why does that matter to us? And I guess, and also to our clients, why does that matter so much? Yeah, that's a, it's such a great, it's such a great reflection, you know, because for, for most of my career, I did what I thought people wanted from me, you know, and I ignored and pushed down what I was actually thinking or feeling, um, because my value, I thought my value.

Was in [00:17:00] what I do for others and the results that I give, but what I had the opportunity to reflect through covid was and do that deeper dive on myself is to understand that that that that was based and coming from a place of fear, not love. And when I've learned to love myself and take that time to sort of say, like, what matters to me, I feel there's this multiplication where I've lived this life that was divided between who I am and what I do.

And when I was, when I embraced. Bringing all of that together and authentically being who I am in what I do and what I do. Um, I'm, I'm multiplying. I've gone from being divided to multiply where one plus one now equals three for me and the value that I feel like I add. And I'm attracting people who are more like me or who appreciate what I bring to the table.

So [00:18:00] yes, we can all have the same skills. But the satisfaction and the, and the joy that I get from working with somebody who appreciates that authenticity that I bring to the table and sometimes a bit of woo, and sometimes it's a lot of logic and information, and my ability to see a light at the end of the tunnel and get us across the finish line, but I'm doing it with a deeper connection.

And so there's just this, I don't know this inner calmness that I have of, of. Feeling like I, by bringing all of who I am to the table, I'm detracting those that don't care about that, which is great. You know, there is somebody out there who is in alignment with that person, but for the person who cares about.

That authenticity and the purpose and the why we do what we do, I feel a greater amount of joy. And so my work doesn't feel like work. It's just [00:19:00] making an impact and doing it in a way that just is in alignment with who I am in my soul. Yeah. I think you just described the definition of a humane business that, that it really.

That's what it is for me. It's like, yes, it's a business, but it's a business that is aligned with who you are. And so it doesn't feel like work. And at the same time, it feels very joyful to work with clients and, and, you know, do create change. And you, you mentioned that inner calm or inner peace. I think that is such a big part of it.

Um, And it's, it's underestimated, like it's undervalued. I feel like, you know, we, we go out there and, and I, I know that a lot of people are like, well, what I need is tactics. What I need is, you know, learn how to be on LinkedIn and publish on LinkedIn. Yes, you need that. As well, what you need first is this, you know, [00:20:00] understand who you are, uh, your values, how you're wired so that you can then come to whatever place you choose to be with this inner, inner peace.

And yeah, so let's go back to the, the, this, um, work with fascinate, right? Because that's what we're going to be talking about in the, in the workshop. Um, so tell us a little bit about. You mentioned it's kind of one of the assessments that, um, tells you how the world sees you rather than some of the other assessments like Myers Briggs Enneagram, um, where it comes from how you see the world.

Right. So how is this one different and how maybe you can also, uh, share a little bit about Sally, uh, Hogshead who created this whole work and how did you go about finding all of this out? Like, I'm curious about that. Yeah, you know what? It's, it's, um, it's really quite brilliant. So as a marketer, you [00:21:00] know, finding the words and the nuances of how you communicate became a fascination with me, especially because as a child, you know, I was really Um, I was very introverted and, and, um, you know, as an HSP, I didn't, I learned to wall off how I felt and how I communicated, but it also became a fascination for me in my career, you know, going into marketing, um, was something for me that I needed to do for others, what I really struggled to do for myself and.

The outside in perspective, when you're with Sally, what I learned, um, as I did my research, um, once I did the test and I was so fascinated by my, by my own results, I dug a little bit deeper and understood that, you know, so Sally was a marketer is a marketer and at heart, she was a very, very successful advertising writer.

By the time she was 27, she had, you know, [00:22:00] she, she was one of the most decorated. Advertising writers working with some of the largest corporate brands, and she became really interested in understanding what makes brands so fascinating. It's not the amount of money that they spend. So she undertook to do this research, hired a research company, and they studied hundreds of thousands of brands globally to understand what makes them fascinating.

What one brand more fascinating than another. And she Still that together through all this research, they distilled this down to seven languages. And I think it was in a conversation with her husband at the time who said, you know, what if we were able to do this for individuals? What if we were helped?

We were able to help people understand leveraging what makes brands fascinating. What if we were able to make them understand what makes them fascinating? And when you fascinate somebody in a world that's filled with, you know, distractions, if you think about. How much time you have to capture someone's [00:23:00] attention.

It used to be nine seconds. I think it might be down to three, you know, or two and a half. Yeah. And so if you're going, but when you fascinate somebody, you know, between. Competition. If you're in a business and you've got to get someone's attention, you're trying to get a prospect's attention in a world where commoditization, which is, you know, everything is the same.

Think of toilet paper. You go for the cheap. It's a race to the bottom from a price perspective. It's not about value. And then you've got the distractions, how do you get someone's attention? Well, you get their attention by fascinating them. And when they're fascinated, if you think about the times when you're fascinated by something, everything else falls off the planet, you know, and you're totally zoned in and you're focused.

And that's what the art of fascination is. But when you can't fake it, This is something you can't fake till you make it right it's, it's innate in you and everybody has one of these. [00:24:00] You know, we all speak these seven languages of the fascinate, um, system or the languages. We all speak them all, but there's two languages and one in particular that when you're speaking that language, you're like in this zone of, I could riff on this all day.

I'm in my zone of genius for some people, that's the language of power. And confidence and they come in a room and they just command the room and they, they are the decision makers. And for someone else, it might be about trust and loyalty. They might speak the language of trust, which is that loyal person that, you know, you can always count on others.

It's the language of listening and you're that quiet person in the room who's paying attention and people might not think that you're that Even there, like, you know, you're not paying attention and then you drop this bomb of, well, what about this? Because you're analyzing and paying attention to the whole room.

And so whatever language you speak, when you're able to speak [00:25:00] that language, you will fascinate those who connect with you on that level. So it creates this deeper connection with people. And by virtue of understanding how you fascinate somebody, Bye. It allows you to be more of who you are, because, you know, you're not trying to be somebody else.

You can have the same skills and have gone to the same school, um, and come out, you know, two writers who are equally skilled, but one is going to have a language that is. Is going to connect more deeply with somebody and don't we all want to have a world where we're connecting deeply with people that we get to engage with on a daily basis.

So fascinating allows us to do that. Um, and I was so fascinated by it that I actually got certified. Um, because I said, this is part of my toolbox at the time. I was already working on brands and helping businesses build their, their [00:26:00] brands. And for me, being able to bring that to the individual that I work with in a, in a company, it's like, let's understand your language and the language of the people in your team, because.

It also helps you create this balance on your team of, you know, you might have somebody who's a really, really good person, really skilled, but if they're in a role where they're not able to speak their language, they might feel like they're in quicksand. You know, alert is the language of details. And for some people that lights them up, the ability to.

Cross T's and dot I's and think about the future and think about risk mitigation. For others, it makes them want to gouge their eyeballs out, right? And if you're someone who is in a role that you're passion driven and you need those connections and relationships, but your role requires you to be doing this work that is what we call your, your dormant advantage, your least Engaging and natural language, [00:27:00] you're going to feel like you're, you're in quicksand and you're going to, it's, it's a drains your energy.

So why not understand and learn the language that you speak that resonates with other people at the same time. It's going to attract those people to you and you're going to just, you know, you're going to be living a life that feels like you're in a well spring rather than in quicksand. Yeah, totally.

Well, as we were preparing for, for the workshop and the podcast, I went back to the, to my tests and I, uh, found out that I first took it in 2014 and back then I was the maverick and I think it was innovation and power. And so, so that was kind of like my first experience with Fascinate and I, and I remember being completely surprised and really realizing.

How people see you differently sometimes than you see yourself, [00:28:00] um, because if you look at all the other, um, kind of assessments, the Enneagram and the Myers Briggs, um, so I'm very introverted and very calm and, you know, quiet and, and then I got this word that says power, the maverick. I'm like, what, what is this?

Right? This is completely different. And. And yet when I was talking to people, they're like, yeah, that's, that's how we see you. We see you as someone who creates new things and leads a new way. And I'm like, I guess, yeah, I like doing that. Right. I just, I needed to kind of make peace with this idea of power and understanding it as something that I can do quietly.

Right. Power doesn't need to be loud. It just needs to be kind of like to me, it's a quiet presence, but that somehow still has the ability to lead. [00:29:00] So I remember that for me, that was life changing and just really accepting that role and saying, okay, yeah, if that's what you want me to do, then I'll step into that role and, and kind of come out of the.

The shadow, uh, maybe a little bit as well. So, um, it's funny that you mentioned power because I have almost the opposite. So power is my dormant advantage, but the story about how I named my company, when I started the company, I worked with this brilliant person, um, who I had worked with. For years in my corporate role to help me come up with a name for my business.

Together we came up because I wanted my whole premise was I want to be able to empower my. clients to be better marketers and to do it their way, you know, to find a path that is right for you. You don't have to follow the trends. And so we came up with wheeled marketing, put the power [00:30:00] of marketing in your hands.

It's not a bad name, but I didn't do anything. I sat on it for a year and this was all before I knew fascinated, didn't know anything about fascinating, but I sat on it for a year. It didn't design a logo. Didn't didn't build a website. Didn't do anything with the name because there was something in my heart that was like, it doesn't feel right.

It doesn't feel right. And I did my fascinate. Test. And in my fascinate test, you know, my number one language is passion, which is the language of relationships and connection and intuitiveness and my, and I'll bet, you know, then you've got this waiting of all of seven languages will my dormant, which is my least powerful, um, or effective communication is power.

And. I, and I really struggled with this because power, I was a leader in my, in my role for eight and a half years in my last role. I'm like, but I am a leader. [00:31:00] And then I realized power is about that natural ability to come in and dominate a room. And whether you do it quietly or loudly and, you know, making decisions quickly and, and I realized the reason I had been struggling with wield wield is a word that.

Is all about power and it didn't sit well in my heart, but I didn't understand why until I did fascinate and as a result of that, I'm like, that's not the name of my company. Then that can't be the name of my business. And so I really did some soul searching and digging and wanted to really bring that that as an HSP and an introvert myself, I wanted to bring that light that shines inside of us and allow people to bring that out.

And so I changed the name of my company to the firefly. Effect because the firefly is that is that beautiful little glow that sits inside everybody and the firefly effect because I wanted. To simulate the [00:32:00] butterfly effect where, you know, one little firefly can't maybe doesn't make a big difference, but imagine a whole field of fireflies and how beautiful is that?

And so it's, it's about the culmination of bringing, bringing joy and bringing a voice. To everybody and doing it in their own authentic way. So that's where the firefly came from. And I have fascinated to some degree to thank for that. Yeah, but that's what it does for for 1, right? It really helps us with, uh, these words that we can then bring into our marketing.

Because like I say in marketing, like we're human because we want to bring more of us to our marketing. So when people ask me, well, how do we learn to be authentic in marketing? Well, there's not like a seven step list, uh, where you can learn that it's, it's going into that deeper inner work. And probably part of it is, is, um, yeah, learning more about these seven languages and then bringing.

More of that language [00:33:00] into your messaging. And, um, yeah, that's what we're going to talk about in this workshop on February 7th. So if you're listening to this and this resonates, we'd love for you to join us. Then you can go to the link humane. marketing forward slash workshop and sign up there. Um, I want to wrap up with a question that I feel like is really timely.

Because we're talking about authenticity, right? In a time where AI has just developed like crazy over the last, let's say, 9 months. And we know as a fact, it's not going anywhere. Like, well, it's not leaving anytime soon. It's definitely going to develop. So how does something like, Oh, Knowing deeply who we are and, uh, having this language that helps us stand out.

How does that help us in a time, um, where, you know, everyone else is using AI and chat GPT. [00:34:00] How can we tap into that system more to, um, yeah, feel like we're being authentic and standing up. That's such a great question. And, you know, building authentic brands is such a big part of what I do. And, um, and, and I'll be honest, I have leveraged AI.

I've wanted to learn. I'm like, I need to understand. What everything, you know, all the hype, I need to understand, you know, so that we're not left behind, but I don't use AI to do my writing. I don't use AI to, um, put words in my mouth. What I use AI for, frankly, is to. Um, is to help me do what I don't do as well.

So for instance, dice, you know, distilling when I have a great conversation with a client, I can record it on my otter, put it into AI. And help have AI help distill that [00:35:00] down to what are those key points so I can be more present and not feel like I have to take a million notes in a conversation because I'm capturing it and I'm going to leverage AI to help me create, you know, what are these talking points that I need to make sure that I'm including in our, you know, in the brand work or, or.

Whatever work I'm I'm working on for that client. So I think there is a way to find out, you know, to leverage the tools that are at our disposal. And I is another tool. The challenges when you're looking at somebody. At somebody's work, it's going to become more evident. In time, and I, you know, that. It's a generate like that.

It doesn't feel authentic. It's going to A. I is only pulling from what's already out in the Internet, right? It's not creating something that's from your heart. And so it comes down, I think, to trusting yourself and feeling confident that you're not. It's [00:36:00] not about FOMO. It's not about, um. Looking at, looking around the room and seeing, you know, what am I missing out on?

I need to jump on this trend. I need to jump on this trend. I need to be on social media and posting six times a week or five times a week. I don't, I, that I've realized that that for me is, you know, is leveraging what I feel confident and know in my heart based on my languages that I speak, how I'm going to fascinate someone.

And trusting that process, I'm still going to leverage and look at it as a tool in my toolbox for myself. And then you have to be discerning when you're looking at other people and trust that the right people are going to find you because authenticity. It's an untapped or an unnamed or a, you know, it's a language that we speak.

And when you're being authentic, people [00:37:00] feel that they feel the vulnerability. They feel, they feel the connection. Um, and I think you just have to trust that, that, that that's going to. You know, leverage the tools where they make sense, be, be discerning. And, um, because AI, you're right. AI is not going anywhere.

So yeah, I'm finding a way to make it, to bring it into what I need in a way that feels in alignment with my own values, right? I'm not going to use it to do all my writing because it doesn't feel authentic. And, and it would feel disingenuous for me to leverage AI and have it write everything I need to write for myself.

Yeah, there's, there's. Something to be said about written text. That's what we use it for or what it's used for right now. But, um, what I feel like this work with Fascinate and knowing your languages also helps us become more [00:38:00] authentic, right? Because we then really tap into who we truly are and embrace that.

Side of us where before we're just kind of pulled into every direction. Oh, I should, you know, kind of do whatever selling like they're doing it. And then I'm doing a little bit of this and and it's, it's helping us understand. Oh. No, there, you know, I can really truly be by, be myself, um, when you show up with clients and when you kind of step into that, uh, true version of yourself, I feel like the writing, okay, that's part of it, but it also just helps with the human and how you're going to show up with your clients, right?

There are so many of my clients that at the beginning of. A workshop that I would have done with them and they get their assessment and they're like, well, it says that I'm, you know, I'm this, but I'm not this, you know, my one person's [00:39:00] passion was her dormant. And she's like, the name of my company is literally passion, you know, consulting or something.

And I said, we went through the process and what I, what she understood was it doesn't mean you're not passionate. And it doesn't, you know, we have a preconceived notion of what these words mean, but when we unpack it, which we do, we unpack it all in, in the, in the workshops that we do, you learn that and you, and we dive into the stories of your life where you start to see that pattern.

Of where this has been true. So it's not just words on a page. It actually are. We go back and we look and validate. And at the same time, it helps to provide this beacon for you. We create an anthem. Um, you know, that helps guide you and helps explain to people what you do in a really short like two words.

My anthem. After going through this process is illuminating visions and it, and for me, [00:40:00] it's what it's in my e signature. It's everywhere, but it, it has become. When I looked at my past, what lights me up and what excites me are these moments when I've been able to bring somebody else. You know, we have an idea.

We bring it to life. We launch a brand. We've, we launch a new product. We, so those are the things like that. Innovation is my why. The passion is, is the, is the, what I, you know, what I do and how I do that is by listening. It's my mystique. It's the listening. So when I understood that about myself, now it helps me to choose and to be selective about what I do going forward.

I call it. A bit of a, it's a warm hug and a kick in the gut all at the same time, because it's like, yeah, this is who I am. And it becomes my guide to make sure that I stay on my path and I don't get distracted by these shiny objects along the way. So yeah. And the, and the moments in that I've seen people's, like the lights go on and kind of go.[00:41:00]

Oh, you mean this is already who I am. And for some people saying those words feels very egotistical at first, because it's like, well, I can't say that about myself that. And then when we dive in deeper, it's like, but it's already how the world sees you. Yeah, that's exactly how I felt about the power.

Right. It's like. Oh, but I'm very humble. You know, I grew up very in, in this humble environment. I'm like, ha, I can't say that . But, um, it's like, well, yeah. You know, it's like not me. It's to other people who are seeing it that way. So, yeah. Yeah. And, and that's why I feel like truly yes, ai, you know, is, is part of our path and the direction we're going.

And I, I actually feel. There's a very positive side to AI and I'll be writing about that in the, in the business like we're human book, because I do feel like creates more spaciousness for actually [00:42:00] being human and that's part of this. Right? It's like, well, because we have AI for the mundane things, we can then focus on.

Actually spending time on figuring out. Well, what is my fascinate language? How can I tap into that and be real? Because that's what we care about is having real conversations with real humans and taking the time to to be human. So I feel like there's a world possible with both being very authentic. And having AI, uh, as, as the, as a tool, like you said, I agree.

I think when we have the confidence that, you know, who you are, the tools and all of these other distractions become just that it's a tool that you can add to your toolbox, learn how to use it in a way that feels. Authentic to you that helps you in your business that, um, you know, [00:43:00] saves time, saves energies, you know, and I'm, you know, I'm definitely in that camp where it is a tool and it's a tool that when we use it well, to your point, you end up with this freedom of time.

Because something that might've taken me, you know, an hour and a half to distill and go through, I can get it done in 10 minutes now. Right. I can get to that point where I needed to get to in 10 minutes. And then I still apply who I am as an individual, my authentic self to bring that spin or the, you know, the, the, the necessary kind of finishing touches or whatever you want to call it so that it isn't just a cut and paste.

You know, it's helping me think of it. I'm thinking of it as another virtual assistant. I actually think it will help a lot of small businesses, especially because, you know, you can do the roles of a number of different people. [00:44:00] So, yeah, I'm so excited. I, uh, um, I really am also excited about this workshop that we have coming up.

And what I also feel like we always do well in these collab workshops is that there's part teaching, you know, you're going to share all of your wisdom about the fascinate system. And we also always create space for being human and having these. Exchanges in the breakout rooms. And I think that's really also a big part of the learning, right?

It's like, well, actually apply this now and have a conversation about how you are different or how do you feel you're different. So really, really looking forward to that, um, February 7th. Embodiment of of it and that collaboration that that you foster in the humane marketing circle is, is really brilliant because it allows people to take their take your guard down.[00:45:00]

This is a, you know, this is a real humane group of people who are all gathered because we have a very, um, similar approach. To life, you know, not just work, but life. And this is one aspect of it that, um, it's freeing. It's, um, you know, it is, it is really like giving yourself permission to be more of who you are.

And Sally has this theme that runs throughout that I absolutely love, which is different is better than better, you know, when you think about it. You already, you know, be more of who you already are, because that's what's going to make you feel good. And it's what's going to attract the people who appreciate that beauty that you bring to the world and that uniqueness.

Um, and, you know, it's like, give yourself permission to be that person. So. Can't wait. Thank you so much for sharing here on the podcast. And again, if you're listening to this before February 7th, [00:46:00] definitely sign up and we look forward to seeing you there and we'll look forward to it. Thank you for having me.

I appreciate it. Thank you, Louise. Thank you so much for listening. I hope you got some great value from this episode. Make sure to find out more about Louise and her work at FireflyEffect. ca. And of course, for even more value, join us for the workshop on February 7th at humane. marketing forward slash workshop.

The suggested price is 27. But you can also just make a donation and if you like the people and style of this gathering, then why not join us in the Humane Marketing Circle? That's how we roll. You can find out more at humane. marketing. com forward slash circle. You'll find the show notes of this episode at humane.

marketing forward slash H M 1 8 1. On this beautiful page, you'll also find a series of free [00:47:00] offers, the Humane Business Manifesto and the free Gentle Confidence mini course, as well as my two books. Marketing like we're human and selling like we're human. Thank you so much for listening and being part of a generation of marketers who cares for yourself, your clients, and the planet.

We are change makers before we are marketers. So go be the change you want to see in the world. Speak soon.[00:48:00] [00:49:00] [00:50:00] [00:51:00] [00:52:00] [00:53:00] [00:54:00] [00:55:00] [00:56:00] [00:57:00]

Welcome back to the Humane Marketing podcast with me, Sarah Santacroce, where we support a business approach that resonates with today's conscious clients through humane, ethical, and non-pushy practices.

In this special solo episode, I thought I'd reintroduce myself and share a bit more about who I am. The whole human. So I share a little bit about my personal self but also talk about my work and specifically my different offerings, including my 1-on-1 Conscious Business Coaching, my programs and our Humane Marketing Circle community.

I'll also offer a sneak peek into my upcoming third book around the topic of Being Human in Business. Let's embark on this journey together, creating a space where business thrives with heart and soul.

Points I talk about:

• Who I am, personally and professionally
• The three main focuses in my life's work (my 1-on-1 coaching, my programs and our community)
• The 3rd book about Business Like We're Human
• The direction of this podcast this year
• And much more...

Ep 180 transcript

Sarah: [00:00:00] Hello, Humane Marketers. Welcome back to the Humane Marketing Podcast, the place to be for the generation of marketers that cares. This is a show where we talk about running your business in a way that feels good to you, is aligned with your values, and also resonates with today's conscious customers because it's humane, ethical, and non pushy.

I'm Sarah Zanacroce, your hippie turned business coach for quietly rebellious entrepreneurs and marketing impact pioneers. Mama bear of the humane marketing circle and renegade author of marketing like we're human and selling like we're human. If after listening to the show for a while, you're ready to move on to the next level and start implementing and would welcome a community of like minded.

Quietly rebellious entrepreneurs who discuss with transparency what works and what doesn't work in business. Then we'd love to welcome you in our humane marketing circle. If you're picturing your [00:01:00] typical Facebook group, let me paint a new picture for you. This is a closed community of like minded entrepreneurs from all over the world who come together once per month in a Zoom circle workshop.

To hold each other accountable and build their business in a sustainable way. We share with transparency and vulnerability what works for us and what doesn't work, so that you can figure out what works for you, instead of keep throwing spaghetti on the wall and seeing what sticks. Find out more at Humane dot marketing forward slash circle.

And if you prefer one on one support from me, my humane business coaching could be just what you need. Whether it's for your marketing, sales, general business building, or help with your big idea like writing a book, I'd love to share my brain and my heart with you together with my almost 15 years business experience and help you grow a sustainable business that is joyful and Sustainable.

If you love this [00:02:00] podcast, wait until I show you my mama bear qualities as my one on one client. You can find out more at humane. marketing forward slash coaching. And finally, if you are a marketing impact pioneer and would like to bring humane marketing to your organization, have a look at my offers and workshops on my website at humane.

marketing.

Welcome back, friends, and happy 2024, may it be filled with many small and many big significant moments, moments of laughter, inspiration, and lots of magical Little moments, today's conversation fits under the P of personal power of the seven P's of humane marketing. And if you're a regular here, well, thanks for being back in 2024.

You [00:03:00] already know that I'm organizing the conversations here around the seven P's of the humane marketing mandala. And if this is your very first time here. Big warm welcome, then you probably don't know what I'm talking about, but you can download your one page marketing plan with the humane marketing version of the seven Ps of marketing at humane.

marketing forward slash one page. That's humane. Dot marketing forward slash the number one and the word page. And this comes with seven email prompts to really help you reflect on these different P's for your business to create this marketing foundation that is ethical and aligned with your values. So, I thought I'd use this first episode of the year to do a solo episode and maybe a bit of a reminder about who I am and what I stand for.

Some other podcasters have done that [00:04:00] and reminded me to do it. So since I usually have interviews, right yeah. Yeah, it's not my favorite thing to talk about myself, but here I am. I I'm looking forward to sharing a little bit about my work, a little bit about me as a person. And then also at the end about the next book that I'm currently working on or nudging myself to work on.

I have to be honest. It's, it, the outline is more or less there, but I haven't started writing yet. So that's the plan for this episode. I'll also give you kind of a heads up of what's coming for the podcast. Some of you may already know me a little bit from reading my books, marketing like we're human or.

Selling like we're human or maybe you're even a member of the Humane Marketing Circle community. And that's definitely the place where I. I just show up as my, you know, [00:05:00] true self, and you definitely then know quite a bit about me. If so, well, then you know that I'm a Swiss born, but global citizen mother of two young adult boys, I'm an empath, and I bring a unique blend of perspectives to the table.

So on the. Personal side, I'm an INFJ. So that's from the Myers Briggs, right? I'm very introverted, but I'm also very people oriented. That's what the last two letters stand for. So I call myself the mama bear of our community, the Humane Marketing Circle. And I would say that has to do with the INFJ. So I feel very.

caring and empathic towards the members of the community and my clients and anybody that I, I come across. So while I'm introverted and I need a lot of [00:06:00] recharging the batteries time, I also very much enjoy people, especially people who have put up their hand and said, Hey, I want to be, you know, in your inner circles.

I want to be spending more time with you. So INFJ, I'm also an. HSP, so that stands for highly sensitive person, and that is a character trait. And I was so relieved when I found out that that's just how I'm wired. I experienced the world more deeply. I feel a lot, and that can sometimes be quite honestly, a bit of a pain because, well, yeah, it's, it's.

It's not always easy to feel everything, to feel a room, to feel the energy of the world in general. And then of course, especially feel the, the energy of my close people, my family, but also my clients. So while it comes with a lot of good things, such as A lot of intuition and [00:07:00] just knowing what people need and all of that.

It also has some of the things that sometimes keep me from sleeping or keep me from just tuning out those kind of things. So I already said I'm an, I'm an introvert. So those three things really yeah. Kind of describe me. Well you know, we sometimes have this. Kind of thought about not wanting to use labels, but I feel good about these three Acronyms INFJ, HSP, and Introvert.

They, they fit me. So I really use both my creative intuition as well as my practical wisdom to make a difference in the business world. I'm also a Capricorn from the astrology side. So very, very practical, very pragmatic, very down to earth. And I'm a cancer rising. So again, that's the care. That's the, the motherly aspect.

That's [00:08:00] like just, you know, empathic aspect. So I do feel like I have found a way to be in business where, you know, I can really use all of me, all of who I am to bring all of that to, to what I'm offering. So. Besides that, I'm also very interested in all kinds of different woo woo things, such as, I mentioned it, astrology, I got introduced to it through my mom, who still does a reading for me each year at my birthday.

She just kind of studied it as a, as a side thing. She was an astrologer, and that's kind of the same approach I have. I don't feel like I want to go and study astrology but I do want to understand it for me, for my close people, my family as well as my clients. It always helps me when they tell me, you know, what, which birth sign they are.

And also human [00:09:00] design, because that's the next thing that I discovered and just really loved it. And I use that as well in my programs, the Marketing Like We're Human program, as well as my one on one clients to help them discover their own personal power. Personal power is the second P of humane marketing, where we really figure out, well, how are we wired so that we can find our own unique way of, business, but also just in general, how to be in business.

I've always practiced yoga, but since COVID, I really do it religiously every morning. It's become part of who I am. So I start the day with, with that. I love yoga with Adrian for that on YouTube. So if you don't know yoga with Adrian, Have a look at that. It's just she has so many different videos.

It's all free. And yeah, I love her style. She's kind of quirky and funny, but it's also very professionally [00:10:00] done. So the sound is good. It's just perfect. So that's what I do in the morning. And then at lunch, I also have a new practice, which is yoga nidra. which is a type of guided meditation, which works better for me than meditation.

I tried meditation many years and always felt like I'm doing it wrong. It's not for me. So yeah, guided meditation. So the yoga nidra for just a deep relaxation of the body feels better for me Because I'm so much in my mind, I feel like, okay, focusing on the body and with this guided meditation and yoga nidra is what I found that works for me, right?

It's all about finding a practice that works for us. And so if meditation is not. the thing that works, we'll go and find something else. I'm also a big fan of alternative medicines such as Ayurveda, which I've discovered what, [00:11:00] probably three, four years ago kind of going into perimenopause and now menopause, just kind of like finding a different way to look at Our, yeah, our health, our body, our nutrition.

So just really loving that approach. And I've always been interested in how other cultures see the mind and the body connection. And so. Yeah, to me, it's just fascinating to follow someone else's approach to medicine, right? Yes, traditional medicine has definitely has saved my husband for once for one and, and, you know, it's, it's doing a lot of good in the world and there's Some things where alternative medicine works just as well.

So Ayurveda is one, flowers of Bach is another one that I've also learned from my mom and, and sometimes forget about it. But whenever I think of it, I'm like, okay, yeah, I'm going [00:12:00] to go back to the flowers of Bach. I love essential oils. And yeah, so, so many things I could list here. I'm just all about experimenting and seeing, oh, yeah, that really works for me.

So, I also book time in my day, most days, to go for an hour walk outside. I started walking with a dog, not our own dog. We travel, we love traveling too much to own a dog. But I started walking in a dog in, The neighboring town and really love that otherwise once per week I walk with my friend Barbara and another time with another friend.

So yeah, really walking and being outside is a big part of me. I'm lucky to live five minutes from Lake Geneva and two minutes from a forest with a little river. So nature really has this healing effect on my Overstimulated mind, which is why I build a lot of spaciousness into my days.

I did mention our [00:13:00] boys, but I just. I think it's, it's an important part of my life still, you know, they're 17 and 20. So still very much a mom even though they're now mainly living their own lives, they are still living at home or at least sleeping at home for the older one, Simon. And yeah, it's a big part of my holistic being, right?

There's this work side of me, but then there's also the Family side of me, which I, I love that I've over the years built a business that really has the space to be all of me and has the space to have me spend time with the boys as they're I As they were smaller and have them grow up in a home where they come back and I'm on calls and and then can Spend time with them and do homework and all of that.

So yeah over the [00:14:00] years that's been really important for me and still is but now they you know, they spread their wings and Need us less and less. So So that's me in a nutshell on the personal side. So on the professional side, I started my first business in 2007, 2008, and have run a LinkedIn consultancy over 12 years.

So helping companies and individuals with LinkedIn. So LinkedIn, social selling, LinkedIn profiles. A lot of LinkedIn profile reviews, which I still offer as a service. It's a small LinkedIn profile video review. So a review of someone's profile in video format. And people really love that because it's a.

relatively small investment and yet they get my expert advice on their profiles. So [00:15:00] that's something I still do. I also still offer a LinkedIn profile done for use. So someone who wants me to write their LinkedIn from A to Z, that's a service I still offer, but I don't give any trainings anymore, no more workshops.

This is all the things that I used to do in companies, but also with individual clients. I did that over 12 years. And then a few years ago, I completely pivoted away from that business. And now I'm doing three main things in the realm of humane marketing. So first The thing that I'm offering is I'm a conscious business coach for changemakers to help them create their life's work and let the world know about it.

I also run my two flagship programs, the Marketing Like We're Human program that has been running since 2019 and is coming up again in March 2024. It's a program for heart centered entrepreneurs [00:16:00] and changemakers to create their marketing foundation. And then a new program I launched last November. For the business book alchemist program for renegade authors to help them write their change making book.

So a book about change. I won't be running that one again until November. So it's kind of an end of the year program. And then I'll basically create a community, a small community group, an accountability group to really stay accountable and help each other write the book during their year. So if you have a book in you keep that in mind for this November, which seems very far right now, since we just started the year, I do also work with clients one on one on their book together with that.

program that I've created a video program for. So if you're in a hurry and would like my one on one support, then that's [00:17:00] something we can look at as well. So that's the Business Book Alchemist program. And then finally, I also host our community, the Humane Marketing Circle, which is a think tank for humans who want to market their business.

And I tell you a bit more about that in a minute. So my clients and members on, of the community always say that I give them permission to be themselves in their business. And I really think that's true. There are no masks in our community and we really are being real and as the. Mama bear of our group.

I lead and show up with vulnerability and share my own struggles so that it creates that safe space to, to be real. And people really appreciate that because I guess there's so much. Unrealness out there in the world that it feels like a safe haven to, to come to and, [00:18:00] and learn together and share about marketing like we're human.

I love to work with change makers who are somehow involved in this paradigm change that we're currently in. So for me, there is really no more business as usual. If I hear someone say business as usual, I just cringe, or if I just. See LinkedIn posts about business as usual. I was like, no, you gotta wake up.

There is no more business as usual. We are the ones that we've been waiting for. So this is the time that to not do business as usual anymore. Because yeah, we are the change makers. We have so much. Need for change right now. So many, so many systems that need to be changed and also just our own relationship to business and work.

And I'll tell you more about that when I talk about the book. So as you know, I chose to [00:19:00] focus on changing and revolutionizing the way we market and sell in our businesses, but to me, that is just. My focus, right? Because that's the field I know best, but in all honesty, it's much bigger than that. And I'm really deeply interested in a complete systems change.

So if we're going to save this planet and our humanity, then we need to stop doing what we've done until now and start reinventing business. Maybe we don't even call it business anymore because. Business reminds me of capitalism, and that is one system that is broken for sure. So in my one on one work, I support change agents who are aware of this paradigm shift and contribute to it with their work.

So either by working with individuals or with companies, this could be organizational change work, or [00:20:00] leadership work, or mindset work, or climate oriented work. Sustainability work, right? Or working in some other way to help humanity, but it all has to do with change from within. So if you know the seven Ps of humane marketing, you can see how Inner change is very aligned with my framework because in humane marketing, we also start with ourselves.

Another framework that starts from within and that I've started to get involved in locally and globally are the inner development goals. So they are the skills that have been kind of, I guess, with collective intelligence gathered to. Achieve the Sustainable Development Goals in a workshop called Humane Marketing for Changemakers.

I've integrated this framework with my approach to humane marketing. [00:21:00] And if you know or run a community who would be interested in having me teach this workshop, please reach out to me. I'd love to come and teach that for free. So yeah, just kind of like looking at change that we need. And the other thing is that we need to think about what is it outside, right?

That we need in our world as a thing that we need to change within ourselves first. So as you can tell, personal development is, is like a big thing for me having gone through it myself, then writing about it in the Marketing Like We're Human book, then applying that in the Marketing Like We're Human, aka the Client Resonator program, and also Very much practicing it with my one on one clients.

It is the thing that we need right now in order to create outer change. Is this inner change first? So yeah, I love helping change makers, finding their messaging and sharing their gifts. And [00:22:00] often they are people like myself who find themselves at a pivotal point, either coming out of a corporate job or.

pivoting in their own business because they feel the calling to contribute to the paradigm shift. So they feel like they've just been running a business as usual kind of business for the last few years and feel like they need to Step into something bigger because now is the time now is the time to really use the gifts that they've been given in order to contribute and make a bigger change, realizing that business as usual, given all our current challenging is just not for them anymore.

So that's the one on one work that I love doing. So let me talk a little bit about our community. The community. Humane Marketing Circle, and after that I'll end with some heads up about the topic of my third book that [00:23:00] I'm currently working on and what I'm going to be sharing on this podcast as well.

Actually, instead of me talking about the circle, our community, let me read you the most recent testimonial I've received from a member, Katica. I haven't had time yet to put it up, but I'll read it here. So she says, I stumbled into the humane marketing circle seeking a community that resonated with my values and approach to business.

What I found was beyond my expectations. It's a gathering of diverse souls, each bringing unique expertise and perspectives. Here, it's not about hosting workshops by renowned experts. It's about sharing. Learning and growing together. The co creation aspect is remarkable. It's not just about attending events, but actively participating in shaping them.

The recent Humane Marketing Circle Expo was a testament to this collaborative spirit. It's not just about self [00:24:00] promotion. It's about lifting each other up. What truly sets this circle apart is the emphasis on people. Not just, not just as members, but as individuals with stories, experiences, and knowledge to share.

Being highlighted in the podcast wasn't a mere promotional tactic. It was an acknowledgement of our expertise and the celebration of our unique journeys. The value here is immense. It's not just about. Collaboration for events, but the organic growth and visibility that stem from it. The environment allows for organic networking and more importantly, it fosters a culture of ethical marketing where pushy tactics have no place.

I've barely scratched the surface and already I've delved into topics like HSP, human design and referral marketing. All things to engaging with this community. What's truly special is that all members here are aligned with. in values, creating a [00:25:00] harmonious space where ethical marketing is the norm. The Humane Marketing Circle isn't just a community.

It's a safe haven for like minded individuals to grow, learn, and make a difference in business, one conscious step at a time. I think that really sums up nicely what our community is like. There's about 40 of us right now. And while we'd love to grow, we are also Making very sure that the quality of the relationships doesn't suffer, because that's what we're most proud of, a community that is interrelated.

Every active member has ties to other members, not just me. So, if this is the kind of community you'd love to get involved in, in this year, 2024. Learn from, and also share your experience with. We'd obviously love to have you. I'm currently redesigning a new landing page for the community with some different longer term pricing options.

But right now you can still [00:26:00] join us at humane. marketing forward slash circle at the monthly rate of 37 per month. And, yeah, we'd love to have you. And finally, let me share some of my thoughts around this third book that I'm planning to work on this year. I've always had plans to have three books, so the marketing, the selling, and the business in general.

That's kind of how my website was set up as well, with the three different colors. Marketing is green, selling is earth red, and business is blue. So, this third book is about business and work in general. Right now, the working title is something like Being Human and Running a Business, or just Business Like We're Human, to follow from the other two titles.

And the subtitle for now is The Changemaker's Path to Redefining Our Relationship to Work and Finding Inner Peace to [00:27:00] Create Outer Change. So yeah. No more business as usual. Basically, I'll be writing about redefining business and work so that it doesn't define us, but we define it. And our work contributes to our own conscious well being and the well being of our planet.

That's what I feel like work should be for and topics are going to be including how we got here, like the story from basically starting in the industrial revolution to today and kind of like highlighting, well, you know, What's wrong with that today? It might've worked back in the industrial revolution, but, you know, we have evolved, our consciousness hasn't evolved.

And yet we are still defined by the way we think about work. From back then. Another topic is [00:28:00] reimagining a different way of making a living or making a life. Creating more spaciousness to be and to focus on things that truly matter to ourselves but also to the collective. The path to recalibrate our relationships and work so that we are ready for the new way of doing business like we're human.

And then also tackling the topic of What AI has to do with all that. So artificial intelligence, how does that have or impact the way we work and how us humans can use AI to help us so that we can work less and be more human. And actually focus on taking care of our world and each other. So collaborating with I, instead of saying, well, no, that's just not human.

So it's not good. Humans, our [00:29:00] main reason for being is not to work. We made that up in the Industrial Revolution, right? So what is our main reason for being human or what makes us human? So big questions like that. And I'll share some bonus episodes here on the podcast with updates of what I'm writing, conversations I'm having, and and more.

And in addition to those bonus episodes, I'll also keep my usual schedule of two episodes per month. So one on a business and marketing topic and another one with a change maker I personally want to learn from. And I'm sure you'll be inspired as well. So yeah, that's what I have for today. Let's embark on this journey together, shaping a future where business is a force for good, where we market and sell like we're human.

You can find out more about anything that I've shared [00:30:00] here on my website at humane dot marketing. If you want to find out more about the community, that's humane dot marketing forward slash circle. And you find the show show notes of this episode at humane dot marketing forward slash H M 1 8 0. And on this beautiful page, you'll also find a series of free offers such as the humane business manifesto and the free gentle confidence mini course, as well as my two books, marketing like we're human and selling like we're human.

Thanks so much for listening and being part of a generation of marketers who cares for yourself. Your clients and the planet. We are change makers before we are marketers. So go be the change you want to see in the world. Speak soon.[00:31:00] [00:32:00]

In this week's episode, I chatted with Dr. Renée Lertzman, a renowned psychological researcher shaping climate change action through psychology and sustainability.

We discussed the theme 'Becoming' and its impact on societal shifts towards sustainable practices and also explored the transformative power of personal change for a more humane business world and the vital role of community in this journey.

Renée shared challenges faced by leaders guiding transformations and her nuanced approach to caring in Humane Marketing.

In this episode, Renée and I talk about:

• How do personal transformations contribute to a better, more humane business world for everyone?
• Why is being part of a community important for personal and collective positive transformations?
• What challenges do leaders face when guiding others through transformative journeys?
• In Humane Marketing, caring means more than just concern. Renee explains her approach to caring.
• And more insights for our listeners who are Changemakers before they are marketers

Sarah: [00:00:00] Hello, Humane Marketers. Welcome back to the Humane Marketing Podcast, the place to be for the generation of marketers that cares. This is a show where we talk about running your business in a way that feels good to you, is aligned with your values, and also resonates with today's conscious customers because it's humane, ethical, and non pushy.

I'm Sarah Zanacroce, your hippie turned business coach for quietly rebellious entrepreneurs and marketing impact pioneers. Mama bear of the humane marketing circle and renegade author of marketing like we're human and selling like we're human. If after listening to the show for a while, you're ready to move on to the next level and start implementing and would welcome a community of like minded, quietly rebellious entrepreneurs who discuss with transparency what Works and what doesn't work in business, then we'd love to welcome you in our humane marketing circle.

If you're picturing your [00:01:00] typical Facebook group, let me paint a new picture for you. This is a closed community of like minded entrepreneurs from all over the world who come together once per month in a zoom circle workshop to hold each other accountable and build their business in a sustainable way.

We share with transparency and vulnerability, what works for us and what doesn't work. So that you can figure out what works for you instead of keep throwing spaghetti on the wall and seeing what sticks. Find out more at humane. marketing forward slash circle. And if you prefer one on one support from me, my humane business coaching could be just what you need.

Whether it's for your marketing, sales, general business building, or help with your big idea like writing a book, I'd love to share my brain and my heart with you together with my almost 15 years business experience. experience and help you grow a sustainable business that is joyful and sustainable. If you love this [00:02:00] podcast, wait until I show you my mama bear qualities as my one on one client.

You can find out more at humane. marketing forward slash coaching. And finally, if you are a marketing impact pioneer and would like to bring humane marketing to your organization, have a look at my offers and workshops on my website at humane. Dot marketing.

Hello and welcome back Humane Marketers to this last episode in 2023. Today I'm speaking to Rene Lertzmann about the P of personal power. If you're a regular here and you've been with me all of this time this year, you know that I'm organizing the conversations around the seven P's of the Humane Marketing Mandala.

And if this is your first time here and you don't know what I'm talking about, you can download your one page marketing [00:03:00] plan with the Humane Marketing version of the seven P's of Marketing at humane.

That's the number one and the word page and this comes with seven email prompts to really help you reflect on these different P's for your business. It really is that one page marketing plan where you. Reflect deeply about all the different P's in your business. Today's conversation, as I said, fits under the P of personal power.

And I speak to Renee Lertzman about the topic of becoming. So let me tell you a bit more about Dr. Renee Lertzman. She's an internationally recognized psychological researcher and thought leader. Working to make an impact on climate change with tools that organizations can use to engage, mobilize, and connect with diverse populations.

By blending scientific approaches into strategies that will be [00:04:00] impactful on the environmental challenges, Rene shows that combining the disciplines of psychological Psychology with environmental science can aid in the path of big changes. A native of Northern California, Renée has had more than 20 years of experience as a pioneer, bridging psychological research and sustainability.

She integrates behavioral social Social and Innovative Design Sciences to Create a Dynamic Approach to Social Change. She holds a Master's Degree in Environmental Communications from the University of North Carolina and a PhD from the Cardiff School of Social Sciences at Cardiff University, UK. In our conversation today, we talked about how do personal transformations contribute to a better, more humane business world for everyone?

Why is being part of a community important for personal [00:05:00] and collective positive transformations? What challenges do leaders face when guiding others through this transformative journey? In humane marketing, caring means more than just concern. And Renee explains to us her approach to caring. And there's also more insights for our listeners who are change makers before they are marketers.

So let's dive in and listen to this episode with Renee Lertzmann.

Hi, Renee. So good to have you here. Thank you so much for joining us on the Humane Marketing Podcast. Good

Renee: to be here. Thank

Sarah: you. Um, um, yeah, humane marketing and becoming, uh, all of these topics that you talk about in your work are very much in line with what we're talking about here, this idea of marketing from within.

Um, so really starting with ourselves. So, [00:06:00] um, how do you see these personal transformations on this? Individual level, then translating into something that is bigger, you know, that is part of the collective and maybe even the business part, um, let's dive right in there.

Renee: It's a small question. Um, well, that's a profound question that I experienced to be, uh.

You know, innately, it takes me into the terrain of psychology, which is, you know, obviously my training and my background, um, which is the, the psyche. Um, how do we, um, process, you know, uh, information, our experiences in ways that. Um, can support our ability to act in new and different ways. Um, so I guess I would just say that [00:07:00] there and I mentioned this in my Ted talk where, um, there's no way around it.

You know, that there's no way around the inner and the outer and I remember giving the talk on stage and ad libbing a little bit, which you're not supposed to, but I remember making this statement that said, basically, um, our inner world and our inner life is directly influencing how we are in the world and what we do.

And then I made this comment, I'm sorry, but there's no way around it. And that is to say, you know, we'd like to think that we can do a lot of work in the world, um, you know, by focusing on our actions or, you know, um, our tactics, our strategy, but in actuality, as you know, um, everything we do is an expression of our [00:08:00] inner world and ourself, which is obviously influenced by, You know, um, our social context, our geography, our demographic, our personal biography, our circumstances, our proclivities, our personality, um, our inherent kind of essence, all of that is, is coming together.

Um, and the work, you know, the, the, the work in the world of, you know, ushering in and supporting life. Affirming and life supportive systems for the planet. Um, I see relying on our ability as human beings to, um, level up to, to become more conscious, to become more, um, capable of coming from a place of intention and choice versus unconscious [00:09:00] habits.

Defaults, um, fear, you know, all of that. So my reframe that I encourage is that the circumstances that we're facing in our world is an opportunity. It's an invitation and in a lot of ways, a requirement for us as human beings to, uh, evolve. Um, and, and by that, I mean, really, really evolve into our, like, higher selves, our highest good, the higher part.

That humans are capable of, that's how I see it. So, you know, unless we put attention and intention to our own wounds, our own trauma, our own, um, stuff that each human being has, we all have it, you know, there, there, [00:10:00] those that has to be side by side with how you show up with a team as a leader, with your marketing strategy.

Because if there's, you know, whatever is there will come through. So if I'm coming from a place that I've learned the hard way, if I am coming from a place of fear, of, um, you know, anxiety, of depth, of scarcity. Even a beautifully designed campaign somehow that will come through and so it's sort of on me to practice diligence around that.

Yeah, I love

Sarah: that. And you work a lot in the sustainability field and that applies there, right? That you have to first do this inner work in order to then help the other and help. [00:11:00] Organizations, you know, pay more attention to climate crisis and et cetera. Um, and it applies like you just demonstrated also in a business and marketing sense, because when I 1st looked at marketing, um.

Well, when I had my own little crisis and said, well, I can't do this anymore. There's just no integrity in this. Um, I looked at how marketing is usually presented as something outwards, right? It's out there and you just have to somehow fit into that mold in order to be that person that you're supposed to be, um, in this marketing realm.

And, and that I just realized, well, that is not working for me anymore. It has to be, uh, according to who I am and my worldview and my values. And so the kind of like the, the consciousness that, um, needs to evolve is also needs to happen on the marketing, [00:12:00] um, side. Especially because I think so much that we see out there is, you know, people have gotten such a bad experience with marketing.

Everything is lies. We can't trust a marketer. And so the people who are then kind of went to authentic marketing. Uh, we still realized, well, not everything that they say is authentic marketing was actually authentic because they hadn't done that in their work, right? So it, it really, I see these parallels between also what you talk about this anxiety and scarcity.

Well, yeah, if we come from this scarcity mindset that we feel like, well, there's not enough, I need to hustle to get these clients, clients feel it.

Renee: Right. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. That's where the inner work comes in. You don't, you can't just will yourself or say, okay, I'm going to not do that anymore.

You have to really, um, cultivate the conditions somehow [00:13:00] to, to, um, Explore and be with what is happening for you and ideally have support, some resourcing to do that. Um, the only thing I would just say is I don't think it's like we have to do the inner work first before we do work in the world. It's it's it's they, they are inseparable and I get kind of tired of this, you know, binary, well, binaries in general are still very alive and active out there.

Right. Hope versus despair. Um, you know, inner versus outer. Um, it's, it's like, that's just not how reality is. And so when, when people, when our stakes are high and we're under stress, that's precisely when we tend to go into binary thinking. Right. And so it's just important to recognize that. Um, it's not the inner or the [00:14:00] outer.

It's not inter first, then outer, you know, and again, this goes back to what we already know, whether you look at neuroscience or whether you look at trauma research, or whether you look at contemplative practice, um, that it's, it's, there's a lot of healing that is available. By the act of doing and, and engaging with some sort of practice, like writing something or doing something in the community or launching a business.

Right? That's literally grist for the mill for our learning and practice and development. So, you know, me doing my work with clients, you know, it's, it's an opportunity to grow always. It's a, it's a. That that is the work that is the practice, you know,

Sarah: I feel like oftentimes the people who come to me, they had to go through the things that are not working for them in order to figure out, well, this is not working for me [00:15:00] anymore.

And so now I'm ready for a different way. Yeah, I feel that's often the case

Renee: right that's what that is the human experience I think. Yeah, there's just no shortcuts. Yeah, it's like literally learning by what isn't working and paying attention to this isn't feeling good This isn't working for me. Okay. Now, what does that mean?

What do I want to do about that? I could stay there or I can you know get in touch with where my desire is where my Joy is where I feel Energy and called towards, but we can only get there. Unfortunately, by the pain of this is not feeling good. This is not working. I'm having a crisis. I need to leave my job.

I need to quit this industry. I might need to move countries, you know, I'm, I'm like, like, there's usually people get to a certain point where they're just like. The, the misalignment is too big for me to tolerate right [00:16:00] now, or I have to leave a relationship who, you know, a lot of people are in partnerships where maybe they've come to a place of awakening and the partner or family member isn't there, you know, like that's very real and that happens a lot too.

So, you know, I'm, I'm just normalizing. The experience of, oh, this isn't working. Okay. Then what do I need to do differently? And what will support me? Because it's really important. People. Recognize we need support. Um,

Sarah: exactly. Let's talk about the support because I remember when I 1st went through my breakdown.

I didn't feel like there was people who understood what I was trying to do and what I was even talking about. They're like, what's wrong with marketing? Marketing is fine. You know, this is just how business works. Business is business. And, and I'm like, well, it doesn't have to be, but I didn't feel [00:17:00] like any, anybody understood.

Right. Yeah. And so that makes you feel very lonely and wrong. You're constantly questioning yourself. Yeah. And so then slowly. Yeah. I started to change my people. I'm like, okay, well this is not supporting me. Yeah. So, uh, and, and in that workshop that I just followed with you, um, it was a small group of women in change.

Yeah. And you, at the be very beginning, you said, this is what matters. Small groups like this is what matters. Right. So, so yeah. What, what is the role of community in this transformation?

Renee: Well, um, this is something I. I feel very strongly about and I am starting to write and focus on more and more. In fact, it might end up being my primary focus, which is the role of convening and curation.

So my, you know, just to zoom back. I have a project called project inside out, which was started by a grant from the care foundation. [00:18:00] Um, and I was asked to put together some online tools and resources that take a lot of my work and kind of bring it together into some tools that anyone can access and use.

And so, in doing that, I kind of formulated this idea that. What we need to be doing is guiding and not driving change. And so it's an attempt to do an intervention. And, um, and so we came up with these guiding principles of guiding, you know, and a, and a main, a primary role of that is to be a convener. And so I, um, the organizations, the clients I work with and more generally.

You know, in my kind of work in the world, I'm, I'm basically telling people that if you are an organization, if you have a business, if you have an [00:19:00] enterprise, it's your role now to be more of a convener and together and to take that responsibility very seriously. And that means as a curator, you have to be also attentive to your own, what we were just talking about, like your own development, your own, um, integrity.

Because when you're a convener, it's a responsibility, um, but my point is that, um, it's in the context of relationship and usually small groups that a lot of transformation can happen. And so, and I'm not, I didn't just sort of come up with this. This is like, incredibly well established. You know, there's a book called pro social that talks about the research, you know, like, in a very specific way.

Like, if you have this number of people, you know, I think it's 8 to 12 people and you bring people together over [00:20:00] duration. Like, you know, we already kind of know this. And I was doing this work in 2001, um, an experiment. Using online dialogue where we put people into small groups online and kind of had them together over time.

No facilitation, but we had a certain methodology where people, you know, introduce themselves and, you know, but the, that context was specifically about charged hot button issues, social issues, and it worked like amazingly people did not devolve into fighting because we created these conditions. That enabled people to really listen to each other and be, feel heard and learn and kind of have that exchange.

So we already know a lot about what works. Um, so what I'm suggesting is we go back and look at what actually works. To support people through transformation that human societies have been doing since the beginning. [00:21:00] So, again, I'm not suggesting this is anything new. I'm saying that human wisdom practices and, you know, if you look at council, the council and indigenous cultures, and you look at circles and you look at, like, humans have had this practice of coming together in hard times, ideally.

Not always it's how functional and healthy the society is to say, Hey, we need to look at what's going on. And then, like, people just naturally need to get together to kind of make sense, debate, argue, you know, have that kind of exchange that can support a different. Way or perspective, but you're also getting a lot of support.

So, yeah, it's so

Sarah: interesting. Um, if I may, um, just make the parallel again to the business and marketing world, right in business and marketing, everything we ever hear is go big, go scale or go home. And, you know, you need to be an [00:22:00] influencer and then numbers is what matters most. And, and so here you are saying, well, actually.

No, not necessarily go back. You know, uh, small is beautiful. Um, more intimate, the deeper the connection. Yeah. And so that

Renee: is scalable. It

audio1097513299: is

Sarah: scalable at the same time. Right? Yeah. Yeah.

Renee: Like, I mean, people ask me, well, how do you scale this? It sounds very long and slow and relational. And I, Well, have you heard of the 12 step movement?

I kind of think that's very successful and it's very, uh, talk about scale. It's completely global and the methodology is literally Holding space for people to come together and primarily just tell their stories with each other. And then, you know, you've got all the spiritual principles. It's very regimented.

It's very structured, but I'm just saying, I'm not saying we all need to have [00:23:00] 12 step groups. I'm saying that small group interactions are scalable if you're a skillful convener. And so any company I'm working with. They're going to know I'm going to recommend this. It's not a surprise. It's sort of like, you know, if you bring someone in and have someone has their thing.

It's like, okay, we know pretty much what's going to be recommended. Renee is going to say that. I'm going to say you need to approach your work in an organization by leveraging the people within it. To hold and facilitate small groups. Yeah, I love that. Train people and support people to learn the skills of convening small groups.

Yeah. That to me is the number one skill right now that we are needing and that often people don't have. And, you know, if anyone listening is a facilitator, you know how hard it is. And how, uh, like [00:24:00] it really is. Um, a very, you know, nuanced kind of thing, uh, to learn and any, and I believe we can learn it, but in order to be a facilitator, it goes right back to how do we cultivate the capacity, you know, to really be present because the ability to hold space and be facilitator requires that you have to get out of your, you have to step back.

You can't dominate. You know, we've all been in settings where people are like. Dominating, they're talking too much. Um, so, you know, that's, that's where I go with this is how do we foster, create the conditions for more people to connect with each other in more intimate ways, but also look at how we can scale that.

Sarah: I love that. Yeah. I did a year long program called holding space and it really came from that idea of, well, how do you hold space for yourself? So [00:25:00] that was the first module of. I can't remember, four months or something. And then how do you hold space for others? And, and especially there was also a module, how do you hold space for grief, right?

So, yeah. And so do you feel like we kind of met through the inner development goals? Um, do you feel those inner development goals skills help with this idea of holding space for

Renee: others? Oh, definitely. Yeah. I mean, the IDG is a, you know, it's a very simple, elegant framework that I see as a reminder of what we need to be doing.

Right. Uh, being, thinking, relating, acting and collaborating. So, you know, all of those are interrelated because in order to be a skillful collaborator, you need to have being in order to be a skillful thinker. You need, you know what I mean? They all kind of. Relate to 1 another, but, um, to me, the [00:26:00] power of the is mainly as a.

In vocation to say, hey, we need to look at our skills as human beings, like how we from a developmental perspective and how you do that. It doesn't matter to me, you know, like, there can be a community literally in Nigeria, which I do know of, and they're doing all kinds of unbelievable work. That's strengthening people's capacity to show up, hold space, but they don't need to call it IDG, you know, it's like, it's basically human wisdom and human practice.

Yeah, it really

Sarah: is. There's one more topic I'd like to address and it's this idea of caring, um, in humane marketing. I say humane marketing is for the generation that cares for ourselves, our clients and the planet. So what does caring look like for you? Because you seem to have a bit of a nuanced way to caring and it obviously relates to [00:27:00] sustainability as well.

So talk to us about caring.

Renee: That's a great question. And it is the topic of the book I'm working on right now, which is literally called a field guide for people who care. I love that. So, you know, basically the way I approach care is, um, that care is, our care is a very fragile, it's very fragile and sensitive and sort of, you know, that, that each one of us as human beings.

Have profound capacity to care about whatever, you know, about life, about other people, about ourselves, about, you know, animals or plants or, you know, like the expression of care. I think we need to, um, kind of unleash our. Limits on what care is, what isn't, what it [00:28:00] looks like. And the reason why is because I spent 30 years in the environmental sustainability and climate sector, hearing people around me constantly saying, Oh, well, people don't care because if they cared, they would do something about it.

And I absolutely disagreed, but I didn't know why. And so that's why I ended up spending all this time doing research and, you know, interviewing people and all this stuff, because I. I suspected that wasn't accurate. And what I found through talking with lots of people around the world is obviously people care very deeply.

And I don't care what your condition is. I mean, seriously, I don't care if you are living on the street and you, you are preoccupied with your own basic survival. As a human being, you care about being alive. You care about often, um, others and animals and, [00:29:00] you know, like, so there is a fundamental care that's there that is expressed.

Some people care deeply about ocean reefs. Some people care deeply about a microbe. Some people care deeply about. Knitting, I'm just like, whatever, but my point is that if we feel like, you know, there's something that's interfering with our ability to express that care, we will retract it. We will pull it back in and it will kind of go underground or it will get trans trans.

It'll get applied in other ways. Like people I would interview in the Midwest United States would tell me all the environmental issues. They cared very deeply about and then they would say, but there's not a whole lot. I can do about it. So I'm going to focus instead on my garden and my family and what I eat, you know, because those things I have control over right now.

Does that mean. That that person doesn't care [00:30:00] about the, the water in the region. And so that's where I'm, what I'm saying. We've got to shift our, um, miss. About care, you know, that somehow if you care, you're going to do something about it. The question is, how do we. Unlock and kind of access people's care by affirming, yes, of course we see you and we know that you care very deeply.

Now let's figure out how we can help you express that. That as a marketing strategy is the goal. That's it. That is the marketing strategy is literally, it is communicate with people as if they already care. Like that's it. There's my book. There's your campaign. Just go for it.

Sarah: I love that. Yeah, it's not assuming nobody cares, but on the, on the opposite, it's assuming they care.

And I guess also what you said is like, well, [00:31:00] figuring out what they deeply care about, because when I talk about the SDGs with in programs or things like that, I always say, well, Obviously, yes, they're all important topics, right? We can all agree to that, but not everybody, not each person cares about the same things very deeply.

And so, you know, there is this difference also about what we care about, um, more than others. And so, um, yeah, figuring that out and talking to

Renee: those ones. The movement has got to get more sophisticated and nuanced right as soon as possible because it's very simplistic right now, and I will just say, especially.

Those working in marketing and brand strategy, no offense, but there's just a pervasive way of thinking and working. That's no longer appropriate for the time we're in now, which is that we've got to be more [00:32:00] nuanced and much more attuned. And much more relational to what people care about, why and how and, and just like go right there, which is again, bringing in that, like you just said, like, here's a menu of all the things going on in the world.

It might be very overwhelming, but what do you feel most called to? Right. Okay. Well, if you feel called towards animals and their animal welfare, then great. It doesn't mean you don't care about everything else, but you know, it's like, let's. Honor where the energy is.

Sarah: Yeah, it's human to want to relate on that human level and not be robots that like everything, right?

That care about everything, right? Yeah, I can totally relate to that. Um, you also on your website talk about these, the three A's, which I believe are anxiety. Ambivalence, ambivalence and, and, um, aspiration is it right? So really finding out [00:33:00] what drives people, um,

Renee: in their care. Yeah, exactly.

Sarah: I, I, uh, I like that a lot.

Yeah,

Renee: powerful stuff. It's very useful for people who do work in, you know, marketing and brand strategy. Yeah.

Sarah: I can't, can't wait for that book. So keep working. Thank

Renee: you.

Sarah: Wonderful. Well, any last words for people? I always say at the end of each episode, I say, you know, listeners, humane marketers are change makers before we are marketers.

So any last words that you would like to share with the change makers that are listening?

Renee: Um, Transcribed Well, 1, check out project inside out and my website. Um, so there's Renee Lertzman dot com and then there's project inside out has like tools and it's a little dated right now. So I just want to acknowledge that.

Um, but I would check it out. And if you like it and are excited by it, you [00:34:00] know. Get in touch. Um, we're actually looking at how to evolve it into a program, like an actual, like you said, year long program. I would like to evolve it into a year long program for guiding change. Um, and my, my, I guess, you know, I would just say inviting people who identify as change makers to really identify as being guides.

And what does it mean to be a guide and really learning about guiding, you know, that it's, you know, what, what does that involve? Um, and, and it's a more powerful way of showing up, but it's also takes a lot of the pressure off you because it's no longer all on you to try to get people to do anything.

It's really about how do we enable guide partner. Kind of help contribute to the conditions for people to go there. And then the other thing I would just say is acknowledge that this work can be overwhelming and tiring and sometimes lonely. And [00:35:00] it's really important that. You get the support and connection that you need with nature, other people, whatever that is, um, is really important.

Sarah: Yeah, thanks so much. I always have one last question and that is what are you grateful for today or this week, Renee?

Renee: Um, I'm grateful that I have, you know, the ability to, you know, live in a place that is safe. And, um, there's nature and, um, yeah, I mean, I'm just grateful for really simple things right now.

Mm-Hmm.

Sarah: Yeah. Thanks so much for being here and being my guest. This was

Renee: to Thank you, . Yeah. I'm grateful for you and for having this conversation. Thank you.

Sarah: I hope you [00:36:00] enjoyed this episode as much as I enjoyed recording it with Renée and got some great value from listening in. You can find out more about Renée and her work at renéelaertsman. com as well as the link projectinsideout. com And if you are looking for this community for others who think like you, then why not join us in the Humane Marketing Circle? You can find out more at humane. marketing forward slash circle. And, uh, we'd love to have you there to have these deeper conversations about the transformation that we're currently finding ourselves in and what it has to do with marketing. You can find the show notes of this episode at humane.

marketing forward slash H M 1 7 9. And on this beautiful page, you'll also find a series of free offers, such as the Humane Business Manifesto and the free Gentle Confidence [00:37:00] mini course, as well as my two books, Marketing Like We're Human and Selling Like We're Human. Thanks so much for listening and being part of a generation of marketers who cares for yourself, your clients, and the planet. Cause we are change makers before we are marketers. So go be the change you want to see in the world. Speak soon.

Join me and guest Mark Silver in a deep dive into ethical pricing, dissecting models like "pay what you can" and the intriguing "pay from the heart."

Mark, drawing from his new book "Heart Centered Business," emphasizes the crucial elements of transparency, balance, and assertiveness in pricing. The discussion explores ethical selling, treating clients individually, and a holistic, heart-aligned pricing strategy for sustainable business practices.

In this episode, Patrick and I talk about his 'pay from the heart' price model as well as:

• His view on what money is (and it's NOT energy!)
• How to price ethically
• The elements of a successful 'pay what you can' approach
• Who should adopt these models?
• Why neediness is not a bad thing
• Client sovereignty
• And so much more

Ep 178 transcription

Sarah: Hello, Humane Marketers. Welcome back to the Humane Marketing Podcast, the place to be for the generation of marketers that cares. This is a show where we talk about running your business in a way that feels good to you, is aligned with your values, and also resonates with today's conscious customers because it's humane, ethical, and non pushy.

I'm Sarah Zanacroce, your hippie turned business coach for quietly rebellious entrepreneurs and marketing impact pioneers. Mama bear of the humane marketing circle and renegade author of marketing like we're human and selling like we're human. If after listening to the show for a while, you're ready to move on to the next level and start implementing and would welcome a community of like minded, quietly rebellious entrepreneurs who discuss with transparency what Works and what doesn't work in business, then we'd love to welcome you in our humane marketing circle.

If you're picturing your [00:01:00] typical Facebook group, let me paint a new picture for you. This is a closed community of like minded entrepreneurs from all over the world who come together once per month in a zoom circle workshop to hold each other accountable and build their business in a sustainable way.

We share with transparency and vulnerability. What works for us. And what doesn't work, so that you can figure out what works for you, instead of keep throwing spaghetti on the wall and seeing what sticks. Find out more at humane. marketing forward slash circle. And if you prefer one on one support from me, my Humane Business Coaching could be just what you need.

Whether it's for your marketing, sales, general business building, or help with your big idea like writing a book, I'd love to share my brain and my heart with you, together with my almost 15. Years business experience and help you grow a sustainable business that is joyful and sustainable. If you love this [00:02:00] podcast, wait until I show you my Mama Bear qualities as my one-on-one client.

You can find out more at Humane Marketing slash coaching. And finally, if you are a Marketing Impact pioneer and would like to bring Humane Marketing to your organization, have a look at my offers and workshops on my website at Humane.

Hello and welcome back Humane Marketers to the Humane Marketing Podcast. Today's conversation fits under the P of Pricing and I'm so happy to have a returning guest Mark Silver from Heart of Business and we're going to be talking about Ethical pricing. If you're a regular here, you know that I'm organizing the conversations around the seven P's of the humane marketing mandala.

And if this is your first time here, you probably don't know what I'm talking about, but you can download your [00:03:00] one page marketing plan with the humane marketing version of the seven P's of marketing at humane. marketing forward slash. One page, the number one and the word page. And this comes with seven email prompts to really help you reflect on these different piece for your business.

So it's not prescriptive, but really reflective. Everything we do here at humane marketing is questioning our. Assumptions, what we assume and what we think we should be doing in marketing and question those assumptions and then come up with our own ideas. So before I tell you a bit more about Mark, allow me to invite you to a special week of events that is hosted by our community, the Humane Marketing Circle.

Expo. We're calling it the Expo because we're exposing many different workshops and events that are all hosted by the members of our [00:04:00] community. It really truly is an unsummit, a different kind of experience that is organized and held by our community. And why an unsummit or what is an unsummit? Uh, it's because it's not just about what you'll learn, but how you'll experience it.

Really, we decided that for this event, connection is our guiding star, and we believe in a different kind of learning. One where human connection is just as vital as the knowledge gained. So, our expo is about real conversations. It's shared experiences in a participating atmosphere that emphasizes the power of community.

So it's not just about getting in as much content as you can and watching hours and hours of recordings, but really attending live. You can expect workshops, discussions, and connection calls that are aimed at fostering a sense of togetherness. And it's not just about [00:05:00] being passive, but an active member.

About sharing, learning, and growing together, the activities range from a LinkedIn profile makeover to doodling for stress relief to data analysis, the human way we have grouped the different offerings into four areas that we believe make up a humane business and they are being. Relating, thinking, and doing.

So please join us for free at the humane dot marketing forward slash expo E X P O. And while it's free to join, we'll ask for a small donation to attend the workshops because all revenue goes towards the fundraiser of the first ever real live meeting of our community in Sicily in May, 2024. So I hope to see you at the expo.

The link again is humane. marketing forward slash expo and humane is with an [00:06:00] E at the end, humane. marketing forward slash expo. Okay. Back to this week's episode with Mark Silver. Since 1999, Mark has worked with heart centered entrepreneurs to help them realize that Every act of business can be an act of love.

Mark is one of the pioneers in integrating real spirituality with the nitty gritty of small business. He founded Heart of Business Inc in 2001. A designated master teacher within his Sufi lineage, he has received his Masters of Divinity. As a coach, teacher, and spiritual healer, he has facilitated.

Thousands of individual sessions with entrepreneurs and has led hundreds of classes, seminars, groups, and retreats. His weekly writings and teachings are followed by thousands of people around the globe. A fourth generation entrepreneur prior to heart of business, Mark ran a [00:07:00] distribution business, turned around a struggling nonprofit magazine and worked as a paramedic in the San Francisco Bay area.

So in today's episode, we talked about Mark's view on what money is, and it's not energy according to him, how to price ethically, the elements of a successful pay what you can approach, who should adopt these models, why neediness is not a bad thing, client sovereignty, and so much more. So let's dive into this conversation with Mark Silver.

Hi, Mark. So good to have you back. Thanks so much for indulging me again and, uh, uh, taking another round and another shot at this conversation. We had some tech issues the first time, so thanks so much for coming 

Mark: back. Oh, yeah. Oh, my goodness. If I think of all the times I've had tech issues or problems over the last couple of decades.

No worries. [00:08:00] Part of it. 

Sarah: Thank you. Thanks for being here. So we're hosting this conversation under the topic of ethical pricing. You've been on the podcast on a previous episode where we also talked about pricing, but, uh, a different aspect of, well, part of ethical pricing, which is this, uh, thing that you often talk about, which is pay what you want or pay what you can model.

So we'll address that as well, but I feel like we could have easily called this episode the, um, ethical business, uh, episode, because you just wrote a book called Heart Centered Business, right? And so I, I read it and I, I'm going to kind of pick your brain about certain questions that came up for me, if that's okay.

Mark: Yeah, I'm delighted. I'm delighted to dig in. 

Sarah: Wonderful. So quite in the first pages of the book, you talk about money. And I think if we talk about ethical pricing, well, [00:09:00] obviously we need to talk about money, right? So this idea that often kind of makes it circles in the spiritual realms is this idea of, uh, money being energy and you make a very clear statement that money is not energy.

And so I'd love for you to unpack this and explain, uh, yeah, your approach to it and why money isn't energy. 

Mark: Yeah, so, um, thank you. It's a, it's a, it's a really good question. So this whole idea that while money's just energy, um, is something that I've seen make the rounds, as you said, in a lot of like spiritual business circles, and it's very often used, I think, as a bit of a, of a bypass, meaning, you know, not really POSITIVE pinpointing.

You know, as taking permission to not really look at what's going on. Um, the truth is, it's true. Everything is [00:10:00] energy. Everything is divine at its essence. However, money only exists as money in the physical world. And when something is present in the physical world, it abides by. The, um, constrictions, the restrictions within the physical world, you know, it's like I look out my window and it's, you know, we're moving very close to winter.

All the leaves are off the trees. This is not a time to try to plant tomatoes. You know, it's like, it's not going to work. Um, it is a time to plant trees, however. So it's like, Thank you. Because trees need to be dormant in order to over the over the winter. I don't need to get deep into regenerative farming and planting, but I did not know that.

So thank you. Yeah. Yeah. You can plant them in the early spring. We could spend the whole episode on trees. I love trees. Anyway, um, so. When we talk about money as energy, it's really important that we're not thinking that that's an excuse [00:11:00] to bypass just being responsible with the, with how it works in the world, you know, it's, you know, there's, we have to pay attention to it.

We have to account for it. We have to care for it if we want it to be in our lives. Now, It's also important to say that the economic systems that are in place in this world are extremely unjust there they've been manipulated they've been set up to benefit certain people and to harm others and so it's not like we just want to be.

Um, unmindful of questions of justice or ethics or morality when we're dealing with money, but it does behoove us to really open our hearts to dealing with the real world aspects of what is needed to make money work in our lives. [00:12:00] Yeah. 

Sarah: What comes to mind is, is the, um, I'm missing the words that, you know, the movement, um, that manifests anything, the, yeah, I can't remember the wording right now, but, but basically this idea of that, you know, if you just wish for it hard enough, then it will appear, um, kind of thing.

And I, my. Left brain has just never been a big fan of that idea because it, like, I have a hard time actually understanding it because I, I do believe money is physical as well. So it's like, well, how, how is it just going to end up? And then again, sometimes, yes, you know, it does happen. Some weird circumstances make it, make it happen, but I don't think you can just sit back and.

And manifest everything, anything and everything you want. 

Mark: Yeah. So, you know, as a spiritual person and someone who's had a wide [00:13:00] variety of experiences in this world, I've witnessed miracles. I've witnessed things happen. Um, you know, You know, the, because the opposite isn't true either. Everything doesn't have to be hard work.

You know, again, going back to, um, the land, like, you can set up, um, regenerative agriculture. You can set up permaculture. So the plants care for themselves. You can set up your business. You can set up your money so that it's easier to do. And it's not so much hard work. However, in the physical world, yeah. The physical world is limited and we're asked to care for one another.

We're asked, you know, it's like a one person, you know, if we have a pie, somebody takes the whole pie, nobody else gets to eat. Right. We have to, we're here to share and we're here to care for one another. Right. 

Sarah: Yeah. So, so if we take this idea of money being physical, so what does that then mean for our ethical pricing?

How do we [00:14:00] apply ethical pricing with physical money? 

Mark: Yeah, it's a really good question. And I, I looked at it very closely in particular in my industry, um, around business development and business coaching and business training. And I have seen for. For years and years and years and years, I mean, since, you know, 20 years, 23 years, I've been doing this now.

I've seen people charge. Very high, very, you know, five figures, you know, 10, 000, 20, 000, um, to offer business training for people that are in the very beginnings of their business building. And when I think about ethical pricing at that level, there is no way that a brand new business just starting to take on.

Learning about business is going to be able to generate the kind of income and revenue, uh, that is going to make that kind of investment worthwhile. Um, there's no [00:15:00] way that you can jumpstart. You know, it's like a plant takes what it takes to. To grow i've i've watched you know over the years we've seen really clearly that it takes two to four years for a business to go from creation to momentum if you're really focused on business development it doesn't happen in six months it doesn't happen even in twelve months although you can make a lot of progress and gain.

Um, and gain traction there, but so ethical pricing is when the investment is balanced. The price that you're paying is balanced with what a reasonable outcome could be. You know, not, um, the, the home run, you know, people who, who do a variety of programs like to point out the stars. It's like, oh, yeah, they did my program and they quadrupled their income.

And now they're making 6 figures easy. And 1, they're often hiding. The background of the person that that got those results [00:16:00] and what we really want to see is but what is the average person because you want someone who's doing a program most people are going to get average results and are those average results which can be great average results are great are they are the average results worth the investment or are you hoping on a lottery ticket that you're going to be the one person that gets the home run.

We have to pay attention to that. 

Sarah: I think it's all about honesty and talking about results with honesty. Right. And in humane marketing, we talk a lot about this idea of being transparent and honest marketers. And, and so what we usually see is exaggerated pricing with exaggerated results, like the worst of both cases.

Right. Yeah. Like, yeah. And, and so, and the sad thing about this is that. Then people start to [00:17:00] expect miracle results, right? And if you as a humane marketer show up and say, I can't promise you 10 clients within 3 months of working with me. Um, then there's like disappointment or they're like, well, this other person promises this and that.

And, and so it really feels like we need to have this conversation that there. Is no miracle solution. Yes. I also believe in miracles, uh, Mark, but in terms of business building, especially if you just start out, well, there, you know, the leaps usually happen a bit later, but in the first year, it's very, it's very seldom that you get these leaps.

And especially you can't believe that you. Just because you invest 20, 000, you're going to get these leaps, right? That's exactly right. Honesty conversation we need to have. Yeah, 

Mark: we do. And the, and the miracles which can come, I've seen people like, you know, they, you know, they, uh, you know, they [00:18:00] suddenly get a slew of clients, but if they don't understand where those clients came from and how to repeat it, then that's not really, you know, that's, that's not really what the, um.

That's not really the cause of whatever program you're taking, right? It's like, you can, you can be set up to receive those clients. I've seen people be on the receiving end of miracles, but their business isn't structured to receive people. And then that definitely can create a problem. Like, you know, like, I think of a client, I think of clients who suddenly got big media exposure just because of that.

By luck, but then the people that came towards them, they didn't know how to handle that. So, you know, I've worked with clients who say, oh, my goodness, I'm getting this big media exposure happening. It's going to be coming in a couple of weeks. I'm like, okay, let's ABC, like, let's handle these things so that your business is ready to receive whatever comes towards you.

But, um, but you, you do need to, um, not. Pinned on [00:19:00] miracles and home runs for your business to work. 

Sarah: Yeah. So let's talk about this, uh, idea of the sliding scale. So this, um, kind of accessible pricing in order to serve as many people as possible. That's kind of at the opposite end of the spectrum, right? Um, I do notice myself also, um, after having had discussions with colleagues, Having strong emotions with that scheme as well, because I do feel like, well, if we're selling that as an ideal business model, then that is not necessarily the beginning point for everybody either.

Because otherwise you're going to burn out and, you know, if you start by just giving away your stuff for like really cheap pricing, then how are you going to get create momentum? So I'm really curious to, to [00:20:00] hear your thoughts on that. 

Mark: Yeah, I think it's really important to understand that most of us. You know, we've been exposed to this, you know, large scale capitalist model, where it's like, we sell a lot for cheap, you know, the, the Walmart or Amazon or whatever model, and it's not healthy, you know, all of the small businesses, micro businesses are boutique businesses, you know, you can't, you can't.

You can't sell 10, 000 or 100, 000. It's not realistic that you're going to get there very quickly. It takes, you know, if that's your business model, there's other things that we need to put in place. And we should talk to make sure that's really where you want to go. However, I'm very actually against sliding scale.

And my pay from the heart model is significantly different than just a plain sliding scale. What I observed years ago with people using sliding scales was that there were, uh, Two things generally going on. [00:21:00] One was that there was this genuine desire to make their work accessible. Beautiful, beautiful.

It's really important. There are people who can't access services, and it's wonderful to see people make attempts to make services available to them. However, what most people who were using sliding skills weren't doing is facing their own money issues. And so. Instead of facing their own money issues and coming up with something that works, they were unloading their money issues on somebody else and saying, Oh, I'm struggling to name a price.

So you name a price. And when that works, when that happens, one, people do tend to go to the bottom of the scale. Um, just because. You know, struggling on their own in whatever ways, but, um, what also happens, which people didn't really realize till I started pointing this out to some of my clients was that if someone is struggling with money [00:22:00] issues themselves and everyone in this culture.

Is if they have to choose the price they might choose not to buy it all because it's such an emotional struggle between i want to i want to care for myself i don't have a lot but i want to pay what they're worth it's too much to decide i'm just going to leave right yeah exactly exactly and overwhelmed so when we talk about pay from the heart there's a whole structure around it because, you You do need to, you know, I encourage people to really get clear on what your own business needs are and make that really clear to people.

You know, we, we've just opened up a new course and, um. And we have, uh, our suggested price and we have a minimum price, and then we have a way for people to pay less than the minimum. But we make very clear that, oh, this [00:23:00] is for people who are going, who are struggling with food or shelter people that are, you know, like, it would do you a lot of harm.

This is not just pay whatever's comfortable. Right? Because we need to be supported also. And so it's, it's much more of a collaborative process than just letting people choose whatever it is they want to, whatever they want to pay. 

Sarah: Yeah. And I highly recommend we'll, we'll put the link in the, in the show notes page to the initial, the earlier discussion we had was only about that.

And what I remember you saying, and I kind of gave this picture to my client of the, the star yoga pose, you know, take up space. I remember you're saying that I'm like, Oh yeah, that's a good way to put it. It's like you need to take up space as well and take up the space to explain things. You know, usually people just say, pay whatever you want.

And then, like you said, they usually pick the lowest price. And if you [00:24:00] explain it well, then they'll understand. Um, And that takes you kind of showing up with, with confidence and space. Yeah. Right. 

Mark: And we, and we made a mistake with this, um, in that we had launched it and we were way on the generous side.

Going, you know, if you're really struggling, you know, et cetera, um, and people were paying below our minimum way more than was sustainable for us. And we're looking at it going, what's going on? And then we looked at our language. We're like, Oh, we're not taking a strong stand. And ever since we've taken a stronger stand, um, kind with kindness and with love and compassion, but including our business in the compassion with one of our offers, um, people really responded.

And we really started seeing a market increase people, people care, you know, our clients are adults. You know, if [00:25:00] someone's paying you, they're going to be an adult, even if you work with kids, even if your business works with kids, the people paying you are the adults somehow, and they know that your business needs.

You know, that you need to get paid, like, they know that it costs money to access services. And so you're not going to be surprising anyone when you put out what your financial needs are around and off. Right. 

Sarah: So, so, yeah, this idea of neediness also comes up. In the book, and I guess that's what you meant by it, right?

This, this are that our business has needs as well. And of course, as individuals have needs, but that in this case, neediness is not a bad thing. Um, is there anything else you want to add to that point of neediness? 

Mark: Oh, my goodness. So this is a huge spiritual topic. And it's one of the core [00:26:00] things that we like to help people with.

And in fact, our one of our flagship courses, the heart of money and power is really at heart about coming into a relationship with healthy neediness. We're all needy. We're all needy. It's this culture that has Told us that neediness is not healthy or not right, but we often aim our neediness in a wrong direction in a way where we're not going to get our needs met.

And I'm, I mean, I'm needy. I can't manufacture the air that I'm breathing. I can't create the water that I drink. I can't force food to grow. You know, I'm needy on so many people doing their part in our culture for, you know, to survive. And so. When we can embrace our neediness, then we can be in a healthy relationship with it.

We can be appropriate with it. When we try to [00:27:00] shove our neediness down and not embrace it is when it comes out sideways. You know, that's when it comes out in the sales conversation or comes out in our marketing. And it has this weird feeling of like, Oh, please buy for me or I'm not going to make it. And that feels horrible.

To you as the business owner and it also obviously feels horrible to the client, but if we can just slow down and allow our heart to be fed our heart to drink in the love to drink in the care to know that we're cared for deeply. Then that allows us to feel grounded and solid and then we can start to provide a refuge for people and our clients can then lean into us not feeling like we're trying to extract something from them.

Yes, we want to get paid, but we really want to care for people at the same time and it becomes a [00:28:00] much healthier interchange and it allows us to get at our marketing and our sales in a way that can feel really good in the heart. Because we're not trying to get something from people in that same kind of twisted way.

Sarah: I feel like our, both our work is so aligned. You, you talk about sacred selling. I talk about selling like we're human. I have this visual of having a conversation with your client in the serene garden, right? So this groundedness is very much there. And, and I, yeah, I really hear you with what that means in terms of the neediness.

But then there's also this other aspect of the client sovereignty, which you also talk about in the book, right? It's kind of this counter piece almost, uh, where yes, we have needs, but we also want the client to be sovereign and, you know, make their own decision and respect their decision. And their [00:29:00] timing and all of that, which is not what we're usually told in marketing or selling.

We are told to push at any cost. So, um, yeah, what's the sacred selling look like for you? 

Mark: Well, it's, it's so interesting because when I, when I. If my former career was as a paramedic, or 1 of my former careers was as a paramedic in the San Francisco Bay area, and I did it for some years in pretty intense environments like Oakland, California.

And I, um. When I came into business more came back into business, I should say, I found that I was really good at sales and I was like, how does this may even make sense? And I realized that because I was a really skilled paramedic, I was skilled at doing rapid assessments and chaotic, chaotic environments where people were often scared or upset.

I was good at. Caring for people and [00:30:00] assessing that that's basically what sales is. It's this assessment that, um, we're trying to get to the bottom of what is it that they really need. It's interesting. Another interesting thing that I discovered was that in, uh. English the word to sell the word cell comes from an old English word cell gen.

I'm not pronouncing it correctly. I don't speak old English. Um, but the original meaning is to give something to someone in response to a request. So if you were to say, hey, Mark, can I have that pencil and I handed you the pencil that's selling. I would have sold the pencil to you because you asked for it.

That's the heart of what we're trying to do is just get people what they need, not force people to make a decision that's entirely on us. So one of the, one of the keys of selling, uh, successfully is actually, and I. And I, I think this can be counterintuitive [00:31:00] sometimes for people that are hard centered, is that it's a numbers game.

Um, you, you want your business to reach enough people that your need to have business and clients, which is totally legitimate. Of course, we need business and clients doesn't put that pressure on any one individual person that you're talking to. You can't really help it so much and it takes a lot of spiritual work and heart soothing in the beginning of business because you don't have such a wide network yet.

You know, to not put that pressure, but as a business develops part of what happens is that. You naturally start to gain a larger audience i mean you work towards it you develop it you put things in place that help grow the audience and i don't mean tens of thousands of people i just mean hundreds of people or maybe a couple thousand that your business is reaching.

So that when you have an offer, there are people that are naturally ready to [00:32:00] step forward and you're not putting pressure on people that aren't ready. And you can easily in your heart, give people space when they're not ready. 

Sarah: Yeah, that's a really good way to, to put into perspective why we, I don't, I'm not a big fan of the word audience, but in this case, it makes sense, right?

Why we need our work to reach. Several people, not just the ones that we talk to, and then we feel like we have to push our services onto them. So, so to me, it's always been such a gift when I put out an offer and then people resonate with that offer and come to me, right? That's such a more natural way of, of then having this, uh, humane, uh, gentle sales conversation.

Mark: Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. And I'll tell you why I. Do you like the word audience? Um, I think that, and there may be other words. I'd be interested to hear what your [00:33:00] language is around it, but audience for me has an element of honesty about it, you know, so for instance, heart of business, we reach thousands of people, you know, our emails.

When we send out our Wednesday email, or if I'm on social media, there's thousands of people I don't have, I have a warm relationship and anyone who steps forward to talk to me, we have a warm connection. But I don't have an in, we do as a business. And for me as a, as the, as the head of the business, I don't have a warm, uh, I don't have an intimate.

Relationship with each person on the list and, um, I care, obviously, you know, we care. It's not to say we don't care, but until someone steps forward and wants to have a deeper relationship, you know, joins our learning community or joins a course or something, then it becomes 2 way relationship. And until then, it really is a relationship.

With an [00:34:00] audience, um, with, uh, you know, that's more or less a one way communication, unless someone chooses to reach out and email me, which I always, I mean, I love to get those messages, but the truth is the vast majority of people don't. So, 

Sarah: yeah, no, and I get that. I think it's, it's, it's more the. Again, it's one of those buzzwords that has gotten a bad reputation because once you unpack the word, yeah, that's what the word means, right?

And there's nothing bad with that word. But the problem is that, um, the guru marketers, you know, they tell you to scale your audience and grow. And so it becomes this negative thing where, again, we make. People feel like they have to have this giant audience and, you know, not everybody wants to have the same kind of business module like you do, or some of the other, um, marketers do.

And so that's why to me, when I work with one on one coaching clients, for [00:35:00] example, they're like, I don't have an audience. What is an audience? Right. And so when I explain it to them, what it means, then. Then they get it, right? So it's all a matter of making sure that we speak the same language and understand 

Mark: each other.

It's so important because these words do get really twisted. 

Sarah: Yeah, yeah. Wonderful. Well, let's come full circle and come back to pricing. Um, any kind of, um, thoughts, actions that you'd like our listeners, watchers to, to take and just to. Go deeper into this ethical pricing. 

Mark: Um, I think so. Arriving at a price is a little bit of an alchemical process.

Um, you know, you need to have some knowledge. Like, I really encourage people to figure out what are your financial needs? You know, what are the needs of the business? You know, what is it? What is a price that a That you don't [00:36:00] have to be overwhelmed by clients in order to make a living and at the same time we need to be aware of our somatic body of our of our heart resonance because especially when we're newer in business i like to see people prioritize getting energy flowing through their business as opposed to like sticking to their guns and quote unquote charging what they're worth which doesn't make any sense that phrase doesn't even, You Make any sense.

Um, and so oftentimes people begin, you know, we encourage people like, what is the price that you feel in your heart, in your body? You can say without shaking that you can put out there and feel really solid about and feel comfortable welcoming people in, even if it's lower than what you really need.

Because what happens is, is that yeah. You know it's it's it's never only the price that's keeping people from saying yes [00:37:00] there's all these other pieces that need to be looked at in terms of how are you communicating and are you reaching the right people and you know and a lot of other things and. If all of those things are true, you know, and you get all of those things in alignment, then finding the price feels resonant in your heart.

Even if it's lower, we'll start to get the flow going if your business is newer and you don't have a lot of flow. And so, um, and then that builds up your container. You start to go, Oh, I like working with clients. Oh, I've gotten to practice the sales conversation. I've gotten good at that. Oh, I like, I see that my offer is working and I've managed to tweak it.

And once those things happen, generally, we start to feel comfortable at a higher price at a price that may be, you know, more sustainable. On the other hand, yeah. There may be people who have been in business for a while, and [00:38:00] they're actually not charging enough. And that's part of why their business is struggling.

And, you know, and I'm talking about ethically in terms of being in alignment with themselves. We, I, I've had clients who said, you know, I've learned from this person, they've been doing it for 40 years, they're a master, but they're only charging this much. And so how can I charge more than them? And I, I often say, you know, well, they're, you know, they may be really good at what they do, but maybe they haven't worked on their money, money issues, maybe their pricing is stuck in a somatic memory from the 1980s instead of, you know, present day and, um.

And a lot of times people in those positions don't realize how they're affecting everybody downstream. And so there's like an ethical need to embrace sustainable pricing, you know, sustainable pricing for the business owner. I think ethical pricing. We often look at, okay, are we [00:39:00] doing harm to the client?

And that we do, we need to pay attention to that. But I also, you know, Notice that a lot of, uh, people that we work with see the systemic injustices, see the ways that people are struggling. And I'm saying, and I like to tell people, you cannot make up for systemic injustices on your own back. It needs to be a collective response and, um, and often our economic, economic system is asking, you know, exactly the people who shouldn't be giving yet more free labor, you know, women, people of color, um, queer folks, people who are disabled.

Always the good people, right? Right. The people, the people who are, who are already being taxed by the system, who are already being asked to give more and to do more. And. These folks, and, you know, you need to have, um, sustainable pricing. 

Sarah: [00:40:00] Yeah, I'm so glad you brought up this other side, which I, yeah, I truly believe in both sides and I do, I kind of see the same thing happening as in the sustainability field where there's so many good people, you know, putting.

Themselves and, and, and their work into making these changes that we need to make, but they're not taking care of themselves, right? They're burning out in masses and, and that is not humane, uh, either. And so that that's not helping anybody. And so it's the same for the, for the humane business owner. Well, we need to actually first have you take care of yourself.

Uh, once you are sustainable and you feel like I've taken care of myself without working day and night, right? A humane best business, in my opinion, is a business where you do actually have time to be human. We need to have this. Time to [00:41:00] to, yeah, create spaciousness for being human again, which we have, you know, forgotten how to do.

You're talking about, you know, um, uh, plants and things like that. Well, we don't do that anymore because we're working all the time. But, um, so, so, yeah, I could go go on and on about this. This is like. One of my passion topics right now, but it's so true that we need to listen to, to both of these things.

Yes. We want to be ethical towards others, but also towards ourselves. 

Mark: Absolutely. Yeah. Well, and I think it's important for most people to, you know, people come into the field seeing, Oh, Hey, you know, come into their business thinking, Oh, I want to do this. You know, I want to make it accessible. I want to, you know, And I'd like to remind folks that most businesses, the business model that they're ultimately going to be successful with is not a business model that is accessible when they're in the very beginning of their business [00:42:00] and, um, you know, our pay from the heart model for our learning community.

I couldn't even even created the learning community back in the beginning of our business. I didn't have the material created. I didn't have the solidity and the knowledge and the clarity that I have now on how to help people without having my hands directly on their business, you know, 1 to 1. And so it's quite a natural progression to, um.

Start with getting the business on sound footing and then as you're, as you evolve and as you gain knowledge, and as you get clear on your work and your body of work, then to start to think about how can I shift this business model, not only to make it easier for me, but also to meet some of the goals I have around making it accessible to others.

Sarah: Yeah, that's a good strategy. Wonderful. Well, thank you so much, Mark. Why don't you tell people where they can find. About [00:43:00] you and also your book and maybe tell us about who the ideal reader is for your book as well. 

Mark: Yeah, thank you. Well, I mean, we live at heart of business dot com, uh, you know, if you're interested, you know, you may want to just start with our email list and make sure that, you know, I, I'm, I'm actually who I say I am and that the.

Stuff that's coming out is consistent, you know, and it make and it makes sense on practical on practical level. Um, you can on our homepage if you scroll down, uh, uh, get an excerpt from the book, um, to read the 1st chapter and to see the table of contents. And, um, again, that's a good way to get it. Get a sense of it.

Um, it's interesting when you write a book, it's definitely for, you know, heart of business. We specialize in working with micro businesses, which is people that are self employed up to, you know, maybe a double handful of people involved in the business, you know, from [00:44:00] people that are just trying to replace the professional salary all the way up to, you know, small businesses that might be struggling.

Yeah. Making high six figures or low seven figures. That's kind of our range. Um, but I've been told by a lot of people that work with much larger companies, that the book actually applies very beautifully to people working in large corporations. And, um, um, and, uh, and so, yeah, um, we're just trying to get as much support.

I'm really grateful. You're doing the work that you're doing, Sarah, because, um. We need as much love in the realm of business as we can get. There is so much healing and so much change that's needed, uh, to, um, undo the damage and to have a much more humane, much healthier, much more heart centered approach, uh, to being in business in this world.

Sarah: For sure. Yeah. Thank you. I [00:45:00] always have one last question, Mark, and that's, what are you grateful for today or this week? 

Mark: Oh, I am so grateful for where we live. Um, I get to, I know a lot of people don't have access to this and I'm just grateful to have access to, um, the woods and, uh, and the land around our house where we can grow food and where we can walk the dogs and just be in connection with nature.

And it's just, um, it's just a, it's a balm on my soul. 

Sarah: Hmm. Wonderful. I'm grateful our internet connection worked for this conversation. 

Mark: Yes. That too. That too. 

Sarah: Thanks so much for hanging out, Mark. 

Mark: Yeah. Thank you for having me.

Sarah: I hope you got great value and insights from listening to this episode. You can find out more about Mark and [00:46:00] his work at heartofbusiness. com. And of course, go over to heartcenteredbusinessbook. com to get a free excerpt of the book and some other information and of course, also links to buy the book. If you are looking for others who think like you, then why not join us?

During the week of December 4th to 8th in our community, we're hosting an expo. We call it the Humane Marketing Circle Expo, and we'd love to see you there. At the expo that is hosted by our community members, we prioritize connection as a guiding principle. This means you'll find engaging workshops, intimate discussions, study groups, and even a walk in nature.

We believe in the power of a Collective wisdom, learning together and creating a truly participative atmosphere. The sessions are curated into four themed categories, being, relating, thinking, and doing, and these [00:47:00] are all addressing spectrum of topics that engage both our left and right brain, our masculine and feminine energies.

So would you like to be part of that? Well, go over to humane. marketing forward slash expo and join us for this week of Humane Business Offerings. It's free to join, and we just ask for small donations to attend the workshops and the raised funds all go towards our first live event of the community in Sicily in May, 2020.

You find the show notes of this episode at humane. marketing forward slash H M 178. And on this beautiful page, you'll also. Find a series of free offers, the Humane Business Manifesto, and the free Gentle Confidence mini course, as well as my two books, Marketing Like We're Human and Selling Like We're Human.

Thanks so much for listening and being part of a generation of marketers who cares for yourself, your [00:48:00] clients, and the planet. We are change makers before we are marketers, so go be the change you want to see in the world. Speak soon.[00:49:00] 

This week I had the pleasure of delving into a deep conversation with Patrick Geary in our latest podcast episode. Brace yourself for a paradigm shift as we explore the realm of Quantum Marketing.

Patrick, a seasoned quantum coach, astrologer, and time magician. In this episode, we redefine success, liberate ourselves from the confines of marketing "shoulds," explore the effects of scarcity, and discover how abundance can coexist harmoniously with financial stability.

If you're ready for a profound shift in your approach to marketing, join us for this different approach to marketing that's about partnering with the Quantum.

In this episode, Patrick and I address:

• A definition of Quantum Marketing
• How Quantum Marketing makes us rethink our definition of success
• Conditions and shoulds in marketing and how QM helps us break free from them
• Scarcity and its impact
• How we can be in abundance and still pay the bills
• And so much more

--

[00:00:00] Sarah: Hello, Humane Marketers. Welcome back to the Humane Marketing Podcast, the place to be for the generation of marketers that cares. This is a show where we talk about running your business in a way that feels good to you, is aligned with your values, and also resonates with today's conscious customers because it's humane, ethical, and non pushy.

[00:00:23] I'm Sarah Zanacroce, your hippie turned business coach for quietly rebellious entrepreneurs and marketing impact pioneers. Mama bear of the humane marketing circle and renegade author of marketing like we're human and selling like we're human. If after listening to the show for a while, you're ready to move on to the next level and start implementing and would welcome a community of like minded, quietly rebellious entrepreneurs who discuss with transparency what works and what doesn't work in business, then we'd love to welcome you in our humane marketing circle.

[00:00:58] If you're picturing your [00:01:00] typical Facebook group, let me paint a new picture for you. This is a closed community of like minded entrepreneurs from all over the world who come together once per month in a zoom circle workshop to hold each other accountable and build their business in a sustainable way.

[00:01:16] We share with transparency and vulnerability what works for us and what doesn't work so that you can figure out what works for you. Instead of keep throwing spaghetti on the wall and seeing what sticks. Find out more at humane. marketing. com And if you prefer one on one support from me, my Humane Business Coaching could be just what you need.

[00:01:40] Whether it's for your marketing, sales, general business building or help with your big idea like writing a book. A book. I'd love to share my brain and my heart with you together with my almost 15 years business experience and help you grow a sustainable business that is joyful and sustainable. If you love this [00:02:00] podcast, wait until I show you my mama bear qualities as my one-on-one client can find out more at Humane Marketing slash coaching.

[00:02:10] And finally, if you are a marketing impact pioneer and would like to bring Humane Marketing to your organization, have a look at my offers and workshops on my website at humane. marketing.

[00:02:29] Hi friends, welcome back to the Humane Marketing Podcast. I hope you're doing well. Today's conversation fits under the P of partnership. And this time we're partnering with. The quantum. If you're a regular here, you know that I'm organizing the conversations around the seven Ps of the Humane Marketing Mandala.

[00:02:50] And if you're new here and don't know what I'm talking about, you can download your one page marketing plan with the Humane Marketing version of the seven Ps of marketing at [00:03:00] humane. marketing forward slash one. page. That's the number one and the word page and humane has an E at the end. So it's not human, but humane.

[00:03:11] It comes with seven email prompts to really help you reflect on these different P's for your business. So in this episode, I talked to Patrick Geary about Quantum Marketing. Patrick is a quantum coach, astrologer, and time magician who helps people weave joyful new realities. His work will help you to recognize the patterns that govern your daily decisions, to make creative connections with your higher consciousness, and to craft a new mindset to catch what your soul desires.

[00:03:45] Patrick believes passionately in world service and worked as an international human rights lawyer for the UN. He has come to understand that the greatest service of all is to be a living example of your truth and knows [00:04:00] firsthand that one person can always make a difference. In today's episode we address definition of quantum marketing, so what What does that really mean?

[00:04:11] It's a fancy term, but what does it mean to Patrick and also how do I understand it? How quantum marketing makes us rethink our definition of success, conditions and shoulds in marketing and how quantum marketing helps us break free from them, scarcity and its impact and how we can be in abundance and still pay the bills.

[00:04:36] And so much more. Are you ready for a different way of thinking about marketing? Well, then this episode is for you. Let's dig in. Hi, Patrick. So good to be hanging out with you and talk about quantum marketing.

[00:04:53] Patrick: Likewise. Thanks so much for inviting me. I'm really excited.

[00:04:57] Sarah: Yeah, me too. And we've had some [00:05:00] off recording conversations about this because we really wanted to make sure that we, you know, have an episode and that really explains this quantum marketing and how you see it.

[00:05:13] And you, you notice that, you know, I'm, I'm new to this as well. And so I'm like, well, how can we make it clear to people who are also new to this? So I'm super excited to, to dive into this with you, Patrick. So, so maybe before we go into kind of the topics that we decided we wanted to cover, let's start with a definition, you know, like, how would you define quantum marketing in your words?

[00:05:40] Patrick: That's a great question. And when I think about quantum marketing first, we can look at when I'm talking about what quantum is and the word quantum and what is the quantum structure and then just give a sense of maybe how that applies in the context of marketing. So when we look at the quantum structure, we're looking at the nature of consciousness and how consciousness expresses [00:06:00] itself.

[00:06:00] And your consciousness and I'm consciousness and everything you see around you is consciousness. It's this understanding that there's really no separation. That the universe is just one particle that's vibrating to infinity. So that quantum structure is that sense of you and me are inside the universe.

[00:06:18] Sometimes I think it's really funny we talk about the universe wants this from here. The universe wants that as though it's different from us or separate from us. And it's not. We're inside the universe. That's one of those key things to remember is that we are a part of the quantum structure. We are part of the infinite and what we see and what we experience is up to us.

[00:06:40] It's really the sense that like, this is like a dream, you know, when you go to sleep, you accept that anything that's happening in that you're seeing, it's all a projection. It's all things that are happening that your brain is perceiving and wiring back to you. So it's that same thing in the physical reality of.

[00:06:55] Everything that you see is a projection. It's a part of you and [00:07:00] what you experience. It's determined by your beliefs, by your emotions and also by your actions. So that's kind of that quantum structure generally is there is no separation. We experience things separately and we can talk about parallel realities, which is also really fun.

[00:07:15] Like the two of us right now are having a parallel reality experience. We're having the same conversation together. So we're coming together and you're looking at me and I'm looking at you. So we're having the same conversation and we're seeing the same thing, but we're also doing it through these different eyes.

[00:07:30] So that's also that awareness of like, we're together right now we're operating as one, but we also have two different viewpoints and what you see is influenced by your emotions and your beliefs and your actions. And for me, it's the same. So we take that kind of basic idea of this is the quantum structure and then we can look at it from how does this, what does this mean when it comes to marketing?

[00:07:52] So one of the things I really think about is you're only ever really marketing to yourself. If everything is united and there's no separation, [00:08:00] then it's really. You know, how you go about sharing your work is going to determine how it's received. So your actions, your beliefs, your emotions, this has a huge impact on your message and your marketing and how you see it received in the world around you.

[00:08:18] Sarah: Yeah, it's so interesting when you started with, you know, consciousness and how quantum really means conscious and When I think about right now, you know, in the Zeitgeist, this word conscious is so, you see it everywhere, you hear it everywhere, but I'm not sure everybody has taken the moment and thought about what does it really mean, and do they think of the word conscious in the same way you just explained quantum, like conscious conscious.

[00:08:53] Yeah. I think the way I use it is different from what you explained that we're all [00:09:00] one. Um, I guess in a way, yes, because I, you know, in, in marketing, like we're human or humane marketing, I say it's, um, marketing for the generation that cares for ourselves, our clients and the planet. So in a way, I am thinking we are all one, so we need to all take care of each other.

[00:09:23] Does that make any sense to you, what I'm trying

[00:09:26] Patrick: to explain? It does. Absolutely. And whether you're looking at, you know, you, you as your own personal experience or you as me or you as the world around you, You're looking at the same thing. It's like that sense of like, are you, you know, I almost imagine like telescope or microscope.

[00:09:43] Like, are you looking at something really big and vast? Or are you going to look at, you know, the whole world around you and everyone you can see and know that they're all part of you and this is what you're experiencing? And how you want to work with? Or are you just looking at yourself? Are you doing the microscope and really looking at like, what is my [00:10:00] message?

[00:10:00] And how am I broadcasting it? And what does it mean to me? So it's you can really vary that scope from looking all the way. You could even imagine marketing to the universe, which is essentially what we're all doing. You know, marketing to things that go beyond earth and really transmitting your messages out there into space.

[00:10:17] You can imagine that sense of marketing as big or as small as you want to. And it's really, you get in for, you get almost like different perspectives or you wear different hats as you do that. And I find that's what's really illuminating is looking at that perspective from, you know, like, am I marketing just to me?

[00:10:32] How do other people receive my messages? So when you try on those different lenses, it feels very different. That might, is that been your experience too? When you look at those different levels of like a marketing to me, I'm marketing to the next generation, I'm marketing to the planet. Do you get different feels for it?

[00:10:48] Sarah: Yeah, definitely. And I and I think this marketing to me and, um, you know, one of the big differences between I find that between a humane marketing and traditional [00:11:00] marketing is this energy shift of Starting with ourselves first in humane marketing, where I say like, look at your passion, look at your bigger why, look at your personal power, meaning how you are wired and how, you know, you perceive the world where in the traditional marketing, it's It goes outwards.

[00:11:23] It directly goes to your client avatar and you are always chasing something outside of you, right? Not starting with yourself. So I think it's that energy shift. And then it's funny because, uh, participants of the marketing, like we're human program, when it goes through the first three P's and we arrive at people, often they have this aha moment and say.

[00:11:47] Is it possible that my ideal client is just another version of me? Like, it's not a bad thing. I'm like, no, yeah, that's exactly, uh, what this is about. Um, [00:12:00] and I think it kind of, yeah, relates to what you're saying is marketing to myself. Right.

[00:12:06] Patrick: Yeah. And I think that's when you get that really nice alignment and that sense of truth and that real belief in yourself when you realize that, you know, what you want to offer to the world is something that matters to you the most.

[00:12:18] And so you're looking to connect with other people who see that same thing in you. It's almost like I heard someone recently described. the concept of celebrity as, you know, being able other people being able to see themselves through your eyes. And I was like, that is so brilliant. That sense that somebody else can see themselves in me as I'm talking.

[00:12:39] And that's that real marketing connection that I think we want, which really at the end of the day, a marketing connection is a human connection. As you say, it's all about transmitting information and sharing what we're here to share. So that sense of. That clarity, like if you're really in that space of clarity and you know this is who I am and this is what I want and you do that internal work, other people [00:13:00] sense that and they feel it and they respond to it, you know, it's that sense to it like again, like we're all connected.

[00:13:06] So if that's where you are, then the only people who can interact with you and meet with you in that space are also people who are feeling clear in that way. Yeah,

[00:13:14] Sarah: exactly. And it's, yeah. You're right. It's really that clarity that often resonates with people where if people sense that You're just chasing some, something outside of yourself and you're just kind of like shifting from one strategy to the next marketing strategy just to, you know, get to something, then, then that's not very, um.

[00:13:40] It's not a calming presence, right? And so, yeah, it resonates probably with other people, but not the ones that we want to attract for sure. What that brings up for me is also, and we talked about this as well when, when we first connected this idea of the definition of success, right? How that [00:14:00] is such a key element in, in business anyways, but also in marketing.

[00:14:06] And maybe tell us how That has to do with, uh, quantum marketing as well, where this definition of success comes in and why it's key.

[00:14:17] Patrick: Yeah, success is such an interesting word and such an interesting concept. And one of the things we look at in the quantum perspective, too, is this idea of conditioning or being told certain things and, you know, in the quantum structure, everything is infinite and you have a message and you can share it with however many people you want to share it with, and you can create whatever experience you want to have.

[00:14:38] And then the kind of experience that we want to create. Gets very almost narrowed down by our experiences over life and what society tells us like being successful means reaching 10, 000 people or being successful means having a product that is launched in 30 countries or whatever the metrics are that we use to determine success.

[00:14:59] And if we work [00:15:00] towards those external metrics and they're not really part of our own truth, they're not really part of what matters to us, then that's when we start running into a lot of those constraints and constrictions and those feelings like, okay, well, I'm not worthy enough. You know, I didn't get the 10, 000 people that I wanted to get, or I did get the 10, 000 people, but I didn't do it in the way I wanted to do it in order to do that.

[00:15:24] I had to be awake at funny times of night where my energy was off, or I had to dilute my message and say it in ways I didn't want to say it. Or I needed to do it on like these three different social media platforms when I don't even like social media. You know, you always get more of what you put out there in the world.

[00:15:41] So I think this is also why we see lots of people experiencing marketing burnout, that sense of like, I can have a very successful, like outwardly successful marketing experience of getting lots of people on board. But at great personal costs, because it's not aligned with where I really am or what I really feel [00:16:00] is true.

[00:16:01] And when you do that, you're not operating from that place of authenticity and it can be very draining and you start almost like attaching yourself to these conditions on like, in order to be successful, I have to do this and this and this, um, and I must meet these things. And then when you no longer meet them because you no longer can, because you no longer really wish to suddenly at all collapses, which is really the best thing that could ever happen.

[00:16:24] But it's not a wonderful experience. Quantum

[00:16:28] Sarah: approach here is to really, again, go within and listen to this consciousness that is telling you how you define success and then just tapping into, you know, uh, other stress, like, yeah, coming from within and aligning with the strategies that you feel like they resonate with you because they're aligned with your values.

[00:16:54] And that will. Get you to that success because the definition [00:17:00] you created, you created it with quantum basically you created it with consciousness, right?

[00:17:05] Patrick: Exactly. Yeah. And success because everything gets to be personal. Everything gets to be up to you. You get to make success mean what you want. And that does mean working through that conditioning and working through these things are hardwired.

[00:17:18] So I don't want to say this like it's easy that you just wake up one day and you're like, you know what, forget all that stuff. Like this is hardwired in us. It's hardwired in our society and in our structure. So it's really a commitment. It's worth it. Um, but it is a commitment to see that sense of I really want to redefine success.

[00:17:36] It can also be wonderfully simple. One of the biggest questions I always ask is just Does this bring me joy? So if I think about marketing, do I enjoy what I do? And do I like talking about it? Do I like sharing it? Do I like who I'm sharing with it? And what is the response? If people are responding to me, am I glad to hear what they have to say?

[00:17:55] Or am I like, Oh, like, I don't want to talk about that product again. Or I don't want to talk about that. That [00:18:00] launch, or I don't want to talk at all, or I don't want to be on that platform. So noticing like, is this bringing you joy and what are, you know, and even just taking it down to like, what is a small step that you can take to bring you joy, to bring joy back into that process?

[00:18:15] Sarah: I feel like it's a lot of unlearning from, you know, the mainstream hardwired. Stuff that was just kind of like, yeah, ingrained into our brains because patriarchy or whatever system capitalism told us, well, this is how success looks like. And now we're being asked to go and question all these assumptions and say, well, you know, maybe that's true for me, but maybe not.

[00:18:41] And so how do I, how do I redefine it? And then look at the look, look at the ways. And I guess that's where goal setting comes in, because that's another topic we, we said we were going to address. Because that, yeah, if you talk about [00:19:00] success, then immediately, then there's all these gurus who are going to teach you how to reach your goals, be very aggressive with your goals and how to reach them and productivity and all of that.

[00:19:11] And so I guess if we redefine our success, then we still need to somehow work towards these goals. But how do we, yeah, how are we more gentle in that process with, uh, approaching it with, uh, a quantum approach, I guess.

[00:19:30] Patrick: Yeah. Well, one of the things I really think about is just keeping it really simple. And the idea of success as being joy or being like, I find joy in my work and I find joy in my life and I know that I am enough.

[00:19:44] Almost looking like what is the emotional state of success and what does that look like? And how do you sit in that space? You always get more of what you are and what you do. So if you're sitting in a space and you bring yourself into the space of I'm going to find the joy in what I'm doing. [00:20:00] And I'm going to know on the inside that I am successful.

[00:20:03] Guess it's, it's also, I find it really reassuring and refreshing to go back to this place of. This is all just a dream and it doesn't really matter whether my message reaches a million people or if it never even sort of leaves my office. If I write a book and I love the book that I wrote and I don't share it with anyone versus I write a book and the book gets read all over the world by seven billion people.

[00:20:28] Not one of those is not more successful than the other from a quantum perspective. It's not like, oh, well, that's that's societal conditioning is okay. Your book is only successful if it reaches a certain number of people. Your book doesn't ever even have to be written. Your book can be the idea of writing a book and loving the idea of writing a book.

[00:20:45] That can be enough for you. So it's really that sense of, okay, just remembering. It's all a dream. Everything is part of me. I'm choosing to have whatever experience I want. We're all celebrities. We're all the main stars of our own lives. So there's [00:21:00] no brownie points or bonus points for, you know, Oh, this book was read by 30, 000 people.

[00:21:05] This was read by 1000 people. It doesn't matter. What really matters is how you feel about it on the inside. So that's one of the things I think about is shifting the goalpost and making the goalpost very much around emotions and making it around creativity and expression. Just really what consciousness is all about is like, I, you know, how are you expressing yourself in the world?

[00:21:26] What are you creating? What do you see around you? And are you enjoying it? Do you like it? You know, you don't have to, if you don't like what you see around you, then that's probably a good clue that there's some things that are going on inside that are asking for your attention.

[00:21:41] Sarah: Again, such a big shift from these left brain goals that come with numbers and figures and stats and all of that, right?

[00:21:50] To tap into the right brain and the feelings and the heart and, and, and look at quality over quantity. Uh, and, [00:22:00] and it, yeah, it really is this reframing that is. Not easy to do if we were not surrounded with people who also think like that if we're looking outside and you know, let's say we're in a corporate, uh, situation.

[00:22:14] Well, everything is measured by KPIs and goals and profit and numbers and everything like that. So, um, we're lucky that we're in the entrepreneurial world, but even there, even there, it's, it's a lot of, um, left brain thinking when it comes to. To goals. I like your I like what you keep repeating. This is just a dream and it reminded me of a vacation.

[00:22:41] Um, we used to live in California in, uh, in Irvine, which is Southern California and kind of a bubble, right? And so we went back to the kids were smaller. We were living there in 2006. And so we went back in 2019. And my Yeah. My eldest, um, he [00:23:00] looks around and everything is kind of man made compared to Europe where, you know, there's a lot of history and old and, and he keeps, he kept saying, I think we're in a simulation.

[00:23:14] I love your sentence about it's just a dream. Yeah, it's like we're in a simulation, you know, it's my simulation that I, uh, that I'm creating. And I think another sentence that comes to me is that I'm kind of using, uh, for myself often is just a reminder of not taking myself too seriously. Like, don't take yourselves too seriously because That's part of the, the issue with the goal setting and the ambition and, you know, the productivity and all of that is like, we're taking ourselves too seriously.

[00:23:47] And we're taking the, maybe the wrong things too seriously, you know, like, yeah, the goals and the, the achievements rather than the joy and the, the, the journey [00:24:00] and just a small little things, uh, in, in the everyday process.

[00:24:06] Patrick: Absolutely. And I mean, that simulation sense that is definitely very quantum, really that feeling of like, I'm, you know, I guess negatively it could be framed as I'm in the matrix.

[00:24:15] I think it's really positive though, that sense of, wow, I'm creating every second of every day. I'm creating the world around me and I'm making this experience and it's all part of me and I'm doing it. That real sense of I choose my reality and I get to create it and I get to set the rules. And, you know, what rules from society or that I've learned, am I going to accept and what rules am I not going to accept is true, which is really what makes change in the world around us.

[00:24:42] I think it's also really fascinating how you mentioned to this, even in the entrepreneurial world, we get this sense of like, these are the milestones that you cross through, or this is the path that you walk. These are the metrics. Again, we have another definition of success. So I was thinking one of the things that can be really helpful if you're in a transition [00:25:00] state is yeah sure those metrics are there and we can't ignore that they're there or that society's expecting this so we can look at them maybe they give us a certain amount of data it's not to say oh don't check and see how many people are you know visiting your site or don't look in your bank account or don't see how many people read your newsletter that can be valuable and helpful.

[00:25:20] You know, it can be a it's how it's I guess it's data point that helps you to locate where you are, but that's by no means the full picture. So I almost imagine having like in this transition phase, like parallel indicators where you might be like, Okay, well, I'm gonna look at You know what traffic is coming to my website or how many people purchase my product or my course, and I'm also going to have my own metrics on how much did I enjoy this?

[00:25:45] How many new people did I meet? How many wonderful conversations did I have? How did this enrich my life? Uh, What service did this offer to the world? Uh, you know, really looking at those, those more personalized metrics versus just [00:26:00] attaching ourselves to some of those other metrics of success, because if we do that, then again, we disconnect from our own truth and we're not able to create, you know, we always have that creative power, but if we've decided this is what success is, then we really don't have creative power to access outside of that predetermined notion.

[00:26:18] Sarah: Yeah, and I'm rethinking back to a conversation I had with a with a potential client and she was kind of in this. Also this world about, uh, left brain and right brain thinking and, and I had shared with her, you know, kind of my struggles with wanting to, you know, have a certain number of people in the humane marketing circle and, and, and knowing that that's not, you know, that's again, quantity over quality, but still kind of being brainwashed with this idea.

[00:26:52] Oh, you You know, I, I wish we had this many people in the, in the circle. And, and so, um, she told me and I [00:27:00] wrote it down on a post it note. She's like, well, what did you think of it more like us? This is a step or this step is in service to the vision. So like always coming back to the bigger vision, why you're offering what you're offering.

[00:27:15] Right. And that is really helping me to feel like, well. Yeah, it's not about the number. It's about the vision and why I'm doing what I'm doing. Um, and, and yes, being in service of that. Every little step, every little conversation is in service of that, um, bigger vision. So yeah, that really resonated with me

[00:27:40] Patrick: as well.

[00:27:41] Yeah, I love that the natural next step, just that sense of all you need to know is one next step to take. And in the quantum structure too, one of the things I really think about is you can have this huge vision, which is a wonderful motivation and a dream. Then you can take tiny actions that sort of encompass the fullness of that [00:28:00] vision, right?

[00:28:00] So if you have this sense of, I want a community and I wanna reach people and I want to be changing people's hearts and minds and lives and what's one little thing that I could do? So it might be, you know, inviting one more person to join the circle. Or it might not be, it might be you get to that stage of actually it feels like that wouldn't be the natural next step.

[00:28:19] You know, it can be that like growing the cer the community up to a certain point. is, you know, sort of the natural next step. And then you'll also know when that feels right. And when that feels complete and that vision that you, that the bigger vision that you have will then want other actions. But it's really that sense of, are you feeding it with joy?

[00:28:38] Are you coming back to this bigger picture? Are you coming back to the truth? That's such an important question. And if you don't, then that's when you kind of. You know, these getting lost in the treadmill, the one of the questions I really think about. I remember when I was working for a law firm, um, someone described the, the, I guess the attainment of partnership, which was after like 10 years of working for a firm and the [00:29:00] like small talk and busy talk at this firm was basically about how.

[00:29:03] People were unhappy. Everyone just talked about how unhappy they were. And someone told me that becoming a partner at a law firm is like being in a 10 year pie eating contest. And then you just win more pie at the end. It was like, of course, that's like the last thing that you want, right? So you get more of what you do.

[00:29:22] So if you're doing even these small actions that are feeling really resonant and feel joyful and are in service of the vision, um, that really does create. That next experience for you.

[00:29:37] Sarah: Yeah, there's, there's one thing, um, that we kind of danced around, but we, we talked about the positive aspect. And then of course, if we bring more of this scarcity or fear, then the logical thing that we attract is also more scarcity or more fear.

[00:29:58] Um, and yet, [00:30:00] you know, the practical side of me always knows, yes, but, You know, there's there's situations where people are just asking, Well, how do I just pay my bills? I just need to pay my bills. So how is quantum marketing going to work for me, uh, to to make sure that I have enough and without, you know, sliding into the scarcity and fear.

[00:30:24] Patrick: Yeah, when I think about that, I really think about that transitional phase of being, you know, be where you are, start where you are. If you feel like I need to pay my bills and I have this job and these are the metrics that I need to meet. And this is what I need to keep doing. Sure, you can have that going.

[00:30:39] And then when you are adding more things on to that. So as you are taking on new projects, or if you feel really inspired about something, or you have another idea outside of that, then just start playing with that idea of, okay, well, what if I just did this with a much lighter touch? What if I just, let's say that I remember when we were talking before I used it to an [00:31:00] example of like tomato sauce.

[00:31:01] Like, let's say that I have a tomato sauce that I really like in my house and I want to promote this tomato sauce and I want to do it from the heart. So I want to do it because I love this tomato sauce and I associate it with my family dinners and it's. Fresh and it's organic and it's healthy and it's the best thing I've ever had.

[00:31:20] I'm so excited about it. Maybe my cousin made this tomato sauce even. So let's say I'm like, okay, I'm going to start telling people about this tomato sauce, and I'm just going to make this my project. And I'm going to see how it goes. And I'm going to see what I can learn from this. I'm going to rediscover that joy of, you know, share, sharing a product and sharing an experience and sharing emotions and do it in this way.

[00:31:41] And the more that you start doing that, the more that that starts becoming available in other parts of your life. So it's more that that sense that that feeling of what you have to do suddenly starts to shift as you realize, wait a second, like I've actually been promoting my cousin's tomato sauce. all over town.

[00:31:58] And now like their business is [00:32:00] booming. Who would have thought, you know, now this tomato sauce is everywhere and everyone's enjoying it. And I'm, I didn't do this with any expectations. I didn't, maybe I didn't even do this for money. I just did it because I loved it. And I love talking about it. So really that sense of rediscovering that, seeing how it works, playing around with it.

[00:32:17] Or even just kind of taking a little, if you have like a little mini product that you wanted to launch on top of what you're already doing and just do that from a place of joy. Or if you want to start baking cookies and bringing them around and that sense of, I wanted to offer you this, it's just that feeling of, I'm offering you something from the heart without any conditions.

[00:32:35] So I'm not playing the success game. I'm not playing the, like, I need to hit 10, 000. I'm out of that picture. I'm not in that kind of conditioning treadmill. And knowing that that's another way to be and another way to work. And as you do that more and more and you see how it gets reflected back to you and you see the joy that you create in the world, then you start to feel safer to do things a little bit differently.

[00:32:59] And it starts to [00:33:00] feel okay to maybe let go of some of those targets or some of those numbers and to start shifting the way that you do. Yeah.

[00:33:09] Sarah: I talk about the transition also in the Marketing Like We're Human book at the end. It's like, well, how do you transition from hustle marketing and, you know, these manipulative techniques that get you the money in because they work, right?

[00:33:23] The fear and the scarcity, it works. So how do I let that go and still am able to pay my bills? And I also say, well, it's a slow transition. So get rid of. Some of the hustling stuff that you just really cannot touch anymore and bring more of the joyful humane marketing and but don't do it from one day to the other, where then you're in scarcity because you can't pay your bills anymore.

[00:33:53] So what I hear from you is like, this is the same. It's like, you gotta make sure that you're safe, you know, you, you have [00:34:00] to have your bills paid. And then you start a little playground with, uh, with the quantum marketing. I see it like a playground. It's like, oh, I go into my playground and, you know, make my sauce or whatever it is.

[00:34:13] Um, and, and yeah, start feeling how this feels different. And then slowly you can bring some of that into Into your main activity or business. I

[00:34:24] Patrick: really like that. Absolutely. I guess for me, it's almost that sense of realizing that you are in a playground. You've just been trapped in the jungle gym, just climbing around and around and around that same space.

[00:34:34] And then suddenly as you open your eyes and you see there are other things to do, and there are other people to engage with. And eventually what I think about that scarcity marketing is if you're marketing from a place of scarcity and fear, you're going to be meeting people who are in a place of scarcity and fear.

[00:34:49] And especially with the scarcity idea, this is not going to be a sustainable long term audience. If you're in a place of scarcity, then you're meeting people in a. And so I think that's the biggest [00:35:00] thing. And I think that's the and purchasing and making that long term committed relationship and really connecting with you as a person.

[00:35:06] They're just buying out of a sense of fear or I don't have enough. Or what do I do? Or I have to get it now. That's not a long term, sustainable pattern. That's not that sense of this infinite playground that the quantum structure really is. That's a very limited version of I guess creativity and all of those conditions just make it really difficult to advance.

[00:35:26] Thanks.

[00:35:27] Sarah: Yeah, so true. It's, it's like this. never ending loop because you can't stop hustling because the, the people just, they, yeah, they don't stay, they don't become part of your sustainable long term business. You have to keep acquiring new people with the, with the hustling

[00:35:46] Patrick: methods. Yeah. And you're connected over fear.

[00:35:49] Is that what you want to connect with people over? That's one of the biggest quantum questions is whatever you're connecting with people over, you're emphasizing more in yourself. It's like what you're broadcasting out into the world. [00:36:00] So if you're really going to go into your own fear and scarcity and broadcast that in the world around you, sure, you might be able to make money.

[00:36:07] You're also going to feel afraid and scarce, and probably you feel like you don't have enough. And you'll be terrified that your next project won't work out well. So really being aware of what is the emotional imprint that you are bringing in any situation, which is why similarly, I think you're very wise to say, like, don't quit your, you know, like your kind of day job now in order to immediately try this new thing.

[00:36:28] Because if you do that, then you're going to go into a place of fear and scarcity. And if you're kind of dropping your vibration into fear and scarcity, that's what you're attracting in the world around you. It's really that sense of how do I hold the joy? How do I hold the creativity? How do I hold the play?

[00:36:44] And how do I bring that in to what I'm already doing? And also, you know, kind of bring it in to choose projects that are bringing that

[00:36:54] Sarah: so much. So lovely. Um, I think I want to ask one kind of [00:37:00] wrapping up question, like where can people find out more about quantum marketing? What, what kind of tools are there?

[00:37:07] Like where does One start to find out more about these, um, the concept, the techniques, et cetera.

[00:37:17] Patrick: That's a great question. I don't know that I have seen anything that's directly focused on quantum marketing. There are many things that are out there that talk about the quantum structure and quantum manifestation.

[00:37:28] I also work with people directly. Um, as a coach and more and more, I'm starting to share my work and starting to share it in conversations. And I think I'll eventually have a quantum cafe, uh, YouTube channel coming out. We've got a few things I've already recorded. So I think maybe this is one of the things that I'm here to, to bridge or to help share in the world more generally.

[00:37:50] So I'm always happy to have a conversation with anyone who's in this marketing world and wanting to figure out where they go next or how to bring more joy and light. [00:38:00] Into their, into their marketing, how to really appreciate the dream that we're all experiencing together and to really get in touch with those internal states and how we broadcast them.

[00:38:11] Um, so I think it's pretty cutting edge. I don't know that I, I've seen

[00:38:16] Sarah: a book. I should have looked it up. I've seen a book called quantum marketing. Let me just, why don't you share your website, uh, and where people can find you while I, uh, kind of Google the quantum marketing book.

[00:38:31] Patrick: Yeah, please do. So my website is, uh, still waters dot space.

[00:38:36] So www dot S T I L L W a T E R S dot S P A C E.

[00:38:44] Sarah: Wonderful. Thank you. Yeah. And I found it. It's called quantum marketing, mastering the new marketing mindset. For Tomorrow's Consumers and it's by Raja, Raja Man, uh, Raja Manar. Raja, Raja Manar. [00:39:00]

[00:39:00] Patrick: Okay. How interesting. I'll have to check it out.

[00:39:03] Sarah: Yeah, we'll definitely link to it in the show notes.

[00:39:05] So we both haven't read it, but it's probably an interesting read,

[00:39:09] Patrick: so. Yeah, and from the quantum structure, I can recommend one of my teachers, Marina Jacobi. Marina, and the last name's J A C O B I. She has a website, marinajacoby. com. She talks about quantum manifestation. Her work is amazing. It's all donation based.

[00:39:25] She has six seasons worth of video. She does regular Q& As. She also talks a lot about the quantum structure and how we work within that quantum structure. So for me, this is, quantum marketing is almost kind of like a look at what does marketing mean in this bigger picture of quantum manifestation.

[00:39:41] Because of course, like, what we're marketing is what we're manifesting. And whether, whether we're experiencing 10, 000 people buying our book or one person buying our book, this is all the reality that we've chosen. So for me, it's that kind of bigger awareness of what information is this giving me? Where am I locating myself [00:40:00] within the quantum structure and how do I feel about it?

[00:40:03] And then this practical sense of like, well, what are actions that I can take that can bring me into greater truth and authenticity? So I hope that this book also also has that bigger perspective. I've noticed that quantum has become a very trendy word and that it doesn't always. I guess I wouldn't say that it always correlates to what I understand as the quantum structure.

[00:40:24] This said, I would imagine there, yeah, there, there could well be a plethora of things that are out there for us to explore. And of course we created them, right, Sarah? You know, there's like, we, we are the same person. So anything you wrote, I wrote, anything I wrote, you wrote. So this person is also us. This book is also something that we wrote.

[00:40:43] So it's us just accessing that, that universal knowledge.

[00:40:47] Sarah: Wonderful. Yeah. So we'll, we'll add both links to the show notes and people can check out both of them. And of course your link as well. Um, this has been great. Thanks so much, Patrick. I always ask one [00:41:00] last question and that is, what are you grateful for this week?

[00:41:04] Patrick: My gosh, um, I went to the dentist today and I was so grateful. Nobody has ever said that. I know, right? But I went down and I was lying for 30 minutes there and my daughter was with me and she was getting to really explore the office and see all of the different tools and the machinery. Had a really nice conversation with my dentist, who's just a lovely person.

[00:41:27] I got my teeth all fresh and cleaned. I was lying down with these kind of dark glasses over my face for a little while. Well, my daughter was playing with my feet and I was like, you know what? This is just like being at the beach. This just feels heavenly. So it's like those little things, right?

[00:41:43] Sarah: I just got a book of dentist appointment now to feel like lying at the beach.

[00:41:48] Patrick: Why not? Right. Really with the light, the way it was all done, I just.

[00:41:55] Sarah: I remember actually in California, um, it was really like that because they [00:42:00] had this paraffin solution next to you. And so you put your fingers in there and then, yeah, it was like, they, they peeled it off after they gave you a massage. I'm like, why can't all the dentists

[00:42:12] Patrick: be like that? This is the dream.

[00:42:15] Sarah: It was a simulation, I'm telling you.

[00:42:19] Really great hanging out with you, Patrick. Thanks so much for being here.

[00:42:22] Patrick: Thank you, such a pleasure.

[00:42:31] Sarah: What did you think? I know partnering with the quantum is not for everyone, but it does always expand my mind to talk to Patrick, so I really hope you enjoyed it as well. You can find out more about Patrick and his work at stillwaters. space and If you're looking for others who think like you and maybe want to partner with the quantum or the universe or with each other, then why not join us [00:43:00] in the Humane Marketing Circle?

[00:43:01] You can find out more at humane. marketing. com and you find the show notes of this episode at Dot marketing forward slash H M one seven seven. And on this beautiful page, you'll also find a series of free offers, the humane business manifesto and the free gentle confidence mini course, as well as my two books, marketing like we're human and selling like we're human.

[00:43:29] Thanks so much for listening and being part of a generation of marketers who cares for yourself, your clients and the planet. We are change makers. Before we are marketers. So go be the change you want to see in the world. Speak soon.

In this episode of the Humane Marketing podcast, we dive into the art of 'Authentic Outreach' with special guest Caroline Leon. We explore how reaching out genuinely can profoundly impact your business, especially for solo entrepreneurs. Caroline, a seasoned business coach, shares practical tips and strategies for making authentic connections, differentiating authentic outreach from traditional networking, and maintaining generosity in your outreach efforts.

We discuss overcoming the unique challenges that introverts face and staying true to authentic outreach as your business grows. Caroline also shares real-life examples of how her business thrived through genuine outreach and offers actionable steps for anyone looking to implement more authentic outreach in their business.

Whether you're a seasoned marketer or just starting, this episode provides valuable insights into building meaningful connections in today's business landscape.

In this episode, we talked about:

• How reaching out genuinely can make a big difference in your business
• Tips for solo entrepreneurs on making real and meaningful connections
• Understanding the difference between reaching out and traditional networking
• The importance of being generous when reaching out
• Overcoming the challenges of reaching out, especially for introverts and sensitive individuals
• Staying true to authentic outreach as your business grows
• Approaches to connect with industry experts
• Real-life examples of how Caroline's business grew through authentic outreach
• Simple steps for getting started with authentic outreach
• And so much more

Ep 176

[00:00:00] Sarah: Hello, Humane Marketers. Welcome back to the Humane Marketing Podcast, the place to be for the generation of marketers that cares. This is a show where we talk about running your business in a way that feels good to you, is aligned with your values, and also resonates with today's conscious customers because it's humane, ethical, and non pushy.

[00:00:23] I'm Sarah Zanacroce, your hippie turned business coach for quietly rebellious entrepreneurs and marketing impact pioneers. Mama bear of the humane marketing circle and renegade author of marketing like we're human and selling like we're human. If after listening to the show for a while, you're ready to move on to the next level and start implementing and would welcome a community of like minded, quietly rebellious entrepreneurs who discuss with transparency what works and what doesn't work in business, then we'd love to welcome you in our humane marketing circle.

[00:00:58] If you're picturing your [00:01:00] typical Facebook group, let me paint a new picture for you. This is a closed community of like minded entrepreneurs from all over the world who come together once per month in a zoom circle workshop to hold each other accountable and build their business in a sustainable way.

[00:01:16] We share with transparency and vulnerability what works for us and what doesn't work so that you can figure out what works for you. Instead of keep throwing spaghetti on the wall and seeing what sticks. Find out more at humane. marketing. com And if you prefer one on one support from me, my Humane Business Coaching could be just what you need.

[00:01:40] Whether it's for your marketing, sales, general business building or help with your big idea like writing a book. I'd love to share my brain and my heart with you together with my almost 15 years business experience and help you grow a sustainable business that is joyful and sustainable. If you love this [00:02:00] podcast, wait until I show you my mama bear qualities as my one on one client and find out more at humane.

[00:02:07] marketing forward slash coaching. And finally, if you are a marketing impact pioneer and would like to bring humane marketing to your organization, have a look at my offers and workshops on my website at humane. marketing.

[00:02:29] Hello friends, welcome back to the humane marketing podcast. Today's conversation fits under the P of people and the P of promotion. If you're a regular here, you know, that I'm organizing the conversations around the seven P's of the humane marketing mandala. And if you're new here and don't know what I'm talking about, you can download your one page marketing plan with the Humane Marketing version of the seven Ps at humane.

[00:02:59] [00:03:00] marketing. com forward slash one page. That's the number one and the word page. And this comes with seven email prompts to really help you reflect on these different Ps for your business. Today I'm speaking to Caroline Leon about Authentic Outreach. Caroline is a business coach who specializes in supporting service based online business owners, such as coaches, healers, and teachers, to build and grow sustainable businesses.

[00:03:30] She supports business owners to do away with the gross and manipulative tactics so prevalent these days online and instead adopt ethical growth strategies that put people before profits. In today's episode, we talked about how reaching out genuinely can make a big difference in your business. We mentioned tips for solo entrepreneurs on making real and meaningful connections.

[00:03:58] Understanding the difference [00:04:00] between reaching out and traditional networking. The importance of being generous when reaching out. Overcoming the challenges of reaching out, especially for introverts and sensitive individuals. Staying true to authentic outreach as your business grows. Approaches to connect with industry experts, real life examples of how Caroline's business grew through authentic outreach, and then simple steps for getting started with this technique.

[00:04:30] This conversation is really a preview of a workshop that I'm co hosting together with Caroline. She's the expert. We're doing a collab workshop once again, and that workshop takes place on November 8th. And, uh, yeah, we'd love for you to listen to this episode, see if it resonates and if it does, and you want more well.

[00:04:54] Join us on November 8th. You can sign up at humane [00:05:00] dot marketing forward slash workshop There's a link to make a donation in the subscription The suggested price is 27 But you can give less or more according to the principle of maximum sustainable generosity And with no further ado, let's welcome Caroline Leon.

[00:05:22] Hi caroline. So good to hang out with you Hey, sarah Thanks for coming to the Humane Marketing Podcast to talk about authentic outreach. Um, let's start with a kind of a definition what authentic outreach is and maybe compare it to the traditional networking or maybe even email marketing, kind of like cold emailing.

[00:05:48] How is authentic outreach different?

[00:05:51] Caroline: Yeah, good, great question. So, um, for me, I usually put it down to, um, a couple of things. It is often easier to describe what it isn't, um, [00:06:00] but I'll have a go at saying what it is first. So, um, I describe authentic outreach as making meaningful and genuine one to one connections with people in your network and wider audience, let's say.

[00:06:14] Um, And so how it differs, you know, because when people hear that, they often think, oh, that's networking, isn't that, you know, and, and I always, I make a distinction between the two. So for me, networking often traditionally has this, um, element embedded in it, which is we're trying to get something from people.

[00:06:31] I mean, we're working the network, you know, we're working our net, basically, that's what the word means. So, um, you know, we think lots of people think traditional networking, it's like, you know, standing at, um, um, um, You know, wine and cheese events, you know, handing out our business

[00:06:47] Sarah: card and the stack of business cards in our

[00:06:50] Caroline: jacket.

[00:06:50] I'm just trying to, you know, get rid of as many as possible, you know. Um, so we're in that place of, like, self promotion, you know, how can I share with people [00:07:00] what I have to offer, what I've got to sell. Um, and the difference for me, the big difference, distinction between that and authentic outreach is we're not in it to get something.

[00:07:09] Um, the, the, the fruits of authentic outreach are a happy byproduct I like to think of, of, of doing the work, but the goal really is connection and relationship. So, you know, we're in it to have. What I call an activated network, but we're not making those connections with something in mind. I mean, I like to think of, you know, going into any connection that I do, whether it's with, you know, former clients, colleagues, looking for some kind of win win.

[00:07:39] You know, if we can have a meaningful connection that is fruitful to both of us. And that could just be the beauty of the connection. It doesn't, you know, have to mean. Something like a podcast interview or a client or something like that. It just, it, it's, it's making those genuine connections and building relationships that then, you know, are [00:08:00] rooted in some level of trust.

[00:08:01] Which of course, if we think about business, it's wonderful. If we think about business as it was pre the internet, you know, that's how the most successful local businesses. They were the ones who had really lovely connections with the local community and that's how it, that's how it worked. It's kind of happened back to those days, those pre social media

[00:08:23] Sarah: days.

[00:08:24] Exactly like, you know, there was a world before social media. And it was, yeah, business owners were building on these connections. To me, when you, when I hear outreach, um, and then I hear you talk about it, Connections, building these lovely connections outreach to me is, is kind of like, it sounds like it's the first step of building the connection because the word outreach kind of, you know, has that meaning of the first thing.

[00:08:56] But you're talking, are you talking only about that first time? [00:09:00] Or is outreach then also something that, you know, builds into, yeah, connection and relationships? Yeah. What is it that, um, that you're talking about? I'm assuming both, but I just want to be sure. Yeah,

[00:09:16] Caroline: both. I mean, and I, and something I'm going to share in the workshop is like the stages of outreach.

[00:09:21] You know, there's kind of three levels and, and the initial stage is really connecting for the sake of connection. Um, and, and it's not always, you know, people hear outreach and they think it's new people. It's people I don't know, but most people are sat on. A huge network that they, of people maybe that they've worked with in the past, old colleagues, old, you know, acquaintances, people that they've forgotten that they had meaningful relations with.

[00:09:49] So, you know, a lot of what I teach is about reconnection. It's not always making new connections. Sometimes it's reactivating a connection that has. You know, gone, gone quiet. [00:10:00] And we all, if we're honest, have those people that we think, Oh, maybe it's been too long. I really wish I'd kept in touch with that person.

[00:10:06] I really, you know, but now it feels too, you know, like too much time has passed. I have this personal rule because, you know, I can let time pass, which is it's never too long. To reach back out to somebody, um, and with that approach, you know, and I'm talking here from a personal perspective and also, you know, from a business perspective, um, I've reignited some really beautiful connections that otherwise I would have just let them, you know, let them fizzle out and disappear.

[00:10:37] Sarah: I think sometimes we're embarrassed to reach back out, but yet if you do it in a Transparent and meaningful way, then I would say probably, probably almost 10 times out of 10, if not nine times, or if not more, then the connection, you know, establishes again, because it's just human and we all have, [00:11:00] you know, full lives and so it's not like people are going to say, Oh, you haven't been in touch for a year and now I'm not going to talk to you again.

[00:11:07] So, so yeah, I hear you. It's like reconnecting. Um, and then, yeah, you mentioned these three stages. Another thing you mentioned is the intention that is so from the networking, right? So it's obviously, I think there's also, you know, it's always, at least in, in, in our realm here, it's business related. So yes, it is.

[00:11:33] Some kind of intention that this is a business relationship, but it's not that client cold calling relationship where we're just going for the money.

[00:11:44] Caroline: Yeah, I mean, I'd love to speak because you said, um. You mentioned the words transparent and meaningful when we were just talking about personal connections and I would say that absolutely follows through to the business, you know, outreach that I talk about.

[00:11:58] And that's one of the [00:12:00] areas that people really struggle with because it's like, how can I be transparent and how can it be meaningful or how can I make these connections without people thinking? She's after something, um, you know, or like there's some hidden motive and I think that's a huge fear that a lot of people have about outreach and it's something that, you know, I go into quite a lot when I, you know, teach this stuff, um, because that's That's, that's, I think that's what, most people know it makes sense to have an activated network and that they should be getting from behind their screens and actually talking to people.

[00:12:33] But I think that fear of how is it going to come across, how, how do I even do? What do I even say? It's the how. It's the how. How and who, I think. Often, as well, I talk to a lot of people and they're like, I, I have a tiny network. I mean, that's probably the first thing that people say to me when I bring this topic up with one to one clients.

[00:12:53] You know, it's like, I don't know, I don't have that many people. And it always makes me smile because I said the same thing to my coach like [00:13:00] 12 years ago when I first started working on this stuff. And I love really digging in also into that, into the who is it, um, who is it and how, you know, do you tell your messages accordingly, you know, to the people that you're reaching out to, but I think they're the two big stumbling blocks for people.

[00:13:17] It's like, I don't know. First of all, I don't even know who to reach out to in a business. Set in. And secondly, even if I do know who, I dunno what to say, I dunno how to say it, that comes across as transparent

[00:13:28] Sarah: and meaningful. Yeah. Well, maybe can you kind of give us an example, a story from a client that, uh, or your yourself, right.

[00:13:37] Where you're like, oh, I figured out the who and I figured out that what, and kind of give us a really practical example of, of how that looked like.

[00:13:47] Caroline: Yeah. I mean, uh, let's have a think so, um, Well, I'll give, yeah, I'll give you one from mine because this is a classic. And I think, I think Ellie, Ellie Trio has been in the, yeah, in [00:14:00] the network, you're well aware.

[00:14:01] Um, so years and years ago, I was doing some outreach and part of my outreach was, um, Uh, you know, reaching out to people I didn't know, people that I admired, um, on, on the internet, you know, part of it was about expanding my network and meeting new people also, which for me as a raging introvert and a highly sensitive person is not easy, um, and I can talk about that as well.

[00:14:22] Um. And I saw, Ellie and I had both been featured in the same, on the same website. We'd both been interviewed for My Morning Routine. I think it's mymorningroutine. com. And I had been published, mine had been published like the week prior, I think. And then hers came up and I was, you know, on the newsletter.

[00:14:39] And I thought, oh my goodness, I love this woman. She's British, she's a painter, she loves cats. We had a similar health condition. Um, I'm going to just reach out to her and tell her that I loved her interview. That, you know, I thought it was lovely. Um, you know, I just wanted to let her know that I was inspired by her interview and her work.

[00:14:57] And Ellie and now, Ellie and I [00:15:00] have been business like besties for now. I mean, it's got to be close to a decade, uh, since I made that out, which we've been mastermind partners. We've, um, we've for, for years, we meet on the regular, we send each other clients. We, I mean, it's just been a relationship that has not stopped giving.

[00:15:20] Um, and it came from one little message that I sent out, you know, years and years ago. So that's one. I mean, I've got others, but

[00:15:27] Sarah: yeah, that's, that's... Yeah, I, I actually, um, thought of one because, um, Rachel, uh, Cumberland Dad, who's in the Humane Marketing Circle and Who Knows You, and who actually was in one of your programs, learned this outreach, right?

[00:15:43] Connected with me. did exactly what you just said with, with Ellie and you know, my brother, well, she, she joined one of my programs. She's in the circle and now she's a certified humane marketing coach, right? And because I just love her and love what she [00:16:00] does. And that's, that's what can happen. Yeah. You come in from this, I just.

[00:16:07] You know, I just want to tell you how great you are. I just, and not in a, in a spooky kind of creepy way, but in a real authentic way. And then, and then these partnerships and collaborations start to happen. Yeah,

[00:16:23] Caroline: I mean, and I could, I refer to them often as like love notes, you know, dropping love bombs. And you know, sometimes it's more, um, You know, that's, and that's where we get into the how and the who, because that's someone, you know, that you've never met before, someone that you admire, so it's going to be slightly different to if you're writing to an old client or an old colleague that you haven't been in touch with for a while, so sometimes you can, you know, another example that I give often is, you know, to just to write to someone and say, Hey, I thought of you today and I know it's been, you know, forever.

[00:16:53] I just wondered how you are, if you feel like, let me know what's up in your world. I'd love to hear. That's it. It's super [00:17:00] simple. It's genuine, you know, um, and people are touched that they're in your thoughts. People don't think with some, if you receive a note like that, I don't think you think what's this person's game, you know, like what's going on here.

[00:17:13] It's so much easier, I think, to be genuine than we think, because when we're doing something in a business. context, we immediately, because of the dysfunctional online world that we swim in often, you know, we have this fear, I'm going to come across as I'm trying to sell something, I'm going to come across as I'm trying to get something from this person, um, and it, and it, and it, um, interferes with our ability to just be as genuine as that, really super simple, no, no attachment, you know, little, no.

[00:17:45] One

[00:17:45] Sarah: thing that, that I'm thinking of as you're speaking is, is the idea of time and kind of being patient and slowing down this process. Because I do, just as you were speaking, [00:18:00] I'm like, Hmm, I guess if Rachel, you know, would have reached out to me saying what she did. And then a week later, you know, she would have said something else.

[00:18:09] And can you be, you know, can I be on your podcast or whatever it was. Then I would have probably started to think, hmm, you know, what is this? What's the intention here? Where if we just kind of, yeah, organically grow the relationship and realize that it starts out with giving more than, than immediately going to the ask.

[00:18:33] Then I think we're building something for the long term. Otherwise, unfortunately, as human beings, we're just so used to the pitches that we're like... Immediately we're like, is there going to be a pitch? And then if there isn't, you know, then it's like, Oh, I can relax. Yeah.

[00:18:51] Caroline: And you know, I often use the analogy of like dating or even, you know, making friends in the, in the real world.

[00:18:57] You know, we often think that like [00:19:00] relationship creation or development in the business world is like something that we were like, I don't know how to do it. And it's like, well, how do you date people? How do you make friends with, you know, Someone in your yoga class, you know, you do. You, it's exactly as you described, it's slow and organic if it's effective, you know, if you, if you go on a date and then you're texting that person every, you know, every, every second hour after the date, then it's going to go, exactly.

[00:19:27] So it's, we know these skills, it's just they sometimes go out the window when we're in business because we, we have this kind of panic about what we should be doing or how we should be navigating. And, and I think a balance that. that I, I teach when I teach this work is the balance between being strategic about our outreach, because we have to remember, of course, it is a business activity, you know, is something we're doing in service to our business, but with also holding it loosely, you know, so sometimes people will say to me, you know, should I keep a spreadsheet and have, you know, and then reach out to [00:20:00] people every so often.

[00:20:01] And I'm like, you can, if you want, for some people, they need that, you know, it really, for me, it's always been much easier to just be. More organic with it, you know, if somebody, um, keeps coming back up to the surface, you know, that person, I keep thinking about that person, it's like, it's, then it's genuine for me to reach out versus I've looked at my spreadsheet and I can see, oh, it's been six months since I reached out to that person, I'll, Um, now I'll reach out to them so that, but there's always a dance, I think, with that because of course, you know, we're, we're, it's, we're working, we are in business.

[00:20:34] And so

[00:20:35] Sarah: yeah, it's that heart and mind combination. Right? And I, I feel like for me, for past clients, it's just the heart that operates because they, I just, you know, naturally think of them again, and then I'll reconnect with, um, with kind of these strategical partners where, I'm like, yeah, I really want to invest time in building the [00:21:00] relationship.

[00:21:00] Some kind of strategy or spreadsheet does help me. Um, because the relationship is new and fresh, where clients it's already established. And so it's more natural just to, hey, how have you been?

[00:21:15] Caroline: Yeah, exactly. I think that's a really great point. When I first, you know, started doing outreach in my business many years ago, I used to have outreach.

[00:21:22] Scheduled in my diary was something that I had to almost force myself to do as a habit I had to develop because it wasn't natural to me as an introvert, you know, I'm I'm much more inclined to not Do that what's been freeing for me actually is that I am much more sociable In online than I am in real life.

[00:21:42] You know, I'm the person who are like going to go down the back street to avoid seeing people on the way to the shops, but online it's much easier because there is that distance, of course, that physical distance. So it feels safer. Um, and yeah, I think, um, just, um, you know, trust in that is [00:22:00] important.

[00:22:01] Sarah: Yeah.

[00:22:01] Yeah. I'm glad you brought up the introvert thing because, um, well, as you know, I'm, I'm a fellow introvert and highly sensitive. And it's true that connecting online is obviously always easier. Um, I also like that most of your outreach, I guess sometimes it leads to calls, but not every time, right? It's not like this thing where all of a sudden your calendar is scheduled full with all these coffee chats, which...

[00:22:31] Is not how I intend to fill my day. So, so it's like really finding what works for you. Or extroverted you might like to talk to people. More often, but

[00:22:42] Caroline: it's yeah. Yeah. And also, you know, it's something that Ellie tree says about this that I'd love she talked about, you know, honing your kindred spirit radar when it comes to, you know, making connections with people.

[00:22:53] And so there will be people who it feels more. effort, like an effort to reach out to maybe there's some fear or [00:23:00] there's some, you know, hesitation. And there are some people that you're just like, I love this person. I love getting on the call with this person. This is not, you know, difficult. And I think also honoring that if it feels too forced or if it feels too, um, You know, too much of an effort for you, um, then, you know, we can, we can look at that also and we can honor that because I think, again, going back to, you know, real life relationships, you know, we don't force ourselves to become friends with a woman in the yoga class if we don't want to, you know, we, that's something that we, we choose because we enjoy that person, and I think that's as equally as important in the business context,

[00:23:39] Sarah: um.

[00:23:41] What would you say, how much How important is confidence in this whole thing?

[00:23:48] Caroline: That's a good question. I don't... So I have a view on confidence, which is that we're all born confident. You know, I always talk about like, um, you know, [00:24:00] babies aren't comparing themselves as they're trying to learn to walk and things like that, you know.

[00:24:04] So we're all born with, I think, a well of confidence. What gets covered up... Uh, our, our, you know, our confidence gets covered up with the thoughts and the doubts and the, you know, um, and the inner, the, you know, the chat, the inner critic and all of that stuff. So for me it's like, My approach to this sort of stuff is, is to just go for it and see what happens, you know, like if I'm feeling, you know, something is, feels like a scary outreach to make, of course, you know, we're all, we're all going to face resistance.

[00:24:34] If there's someone in our industry, for example, and we think I really should make connection with that person, but I'm worried, you know, um, they won't respond or, um, we may resist. Um, and I think it's, I think for me more than, you know, I've got to be confident in order to do this. I think it's just being aware of, where am I resisting, you know, doing this or making this outreach.

[00:24:57] Um, and just being gentle with [00:25:00] yourself about it. I mean, my thing is, the more I've done outreach, the more, the less, um, way I give to it. It's more, and that's the other thing as well as I think, you know, one of the things that I teach is, is to do a bit of a posh on outreach in the beginning so that you get over those fears of every message I send has got to be perfect.

[00:25:20] Everything has got to be really thought out. So in the beginning, I do like to get people to do a kind of, you know, an intensive of outreach just to get over those. It's perfectionist tendencies where it's like I have to, I have to sit and think about every single word in this message before I send it.

[00:25:38] Um, so I, I like to set people a little challenge on that. Um, and I think that really helps get people over the, the doubts, you know, or the fear.

[00:25:48] Sarah: Yeah, no, I, I, I think you're right. Um, I do feel like there is this tendency for people to. Who am I to reach out to this person? Um, [00:26:00] and so I do feel like confidence has to do it or, and that's the other approach, just coming from this perspective, I talk always about, you know, doing everything like we're human.

[00:26:11] And so just looking at the human, not at the business, because reach out like a business owner. Automatically, it will feel staged if you reach out as a human and consider the other human also as a human, not, you know, some famous person who's, you know, business is according to you doing 10 times better than yours.

[00:26:35] Yeah, just put them on the same level as you because you're both human. Then I feel like the outreach is going to be much more natural and authentic,

[00:26:44] Caroline: so. Yeah, and also though, if you're taking away the ask, which we do in authentic outreach, then we're not asking this person for something. So in that scenario, if there's someone who I...

[00:26:55] you know, look up to, that's a mentor, a teacher, you know, I'm not going to write [00:27:00] to them and say, Hey, do you want to have a virtual coffee with me? Because they're probably way too busy and what's in it for them to do that. But I might write to them and say, knowing full well, I may never hear back from them.

[00:27:10] They may not even manage their own inbox. I mean, I've done that many times with people who I think, I don't even think they check their own emails. They're that, you know, big. And I'll just tell them, thank you. Thank you for the impact that you've had in my life. You know, I, I, I, I really appreciate your work and I wanted to let you know who doesn't

[00:27:27] Sarah: want to receive that.

[00:27:29] Who doesn't like that. Yeah.

[00:27:30] Caroline: So then I think that takes away that, who am I, too? Because of course, you know, anybody can give a compliment. That's, you know, even the people who seem like they're, you know. out there making multiple six figures and have huge audiences. They, they're, you know, they will, people always, you know, welcome that kind

[00:27:49] Sarah: of feedback.

[00:27:50] Yeah, sounds good. Yeah, you mentioned that you like to set people a little challenge and I know you have a seven day outreach challenge on your website. So I just want to [00:28:00] mention that and that's available at carolynleon. com outreach challenge resources. And of course, we also want to mention the workshop that we're doing together on November 8th.

[00:28:14] So you can find out more about that at humane. marketing forward slash workshop. Um. These are donation based or, um, and we have a suggested price of 27, but there's also a pay what you can, uh, option. So, uh, we just would love for everyone to join us. And as you can tell, there's a lot more that can be covered.

[00:28:39] And we're really going to go into more of the how right here. Kind of what we looked at is the why and how it's different. But, uh, what you're going to share with us, um, you talked about these three stages. Do they have names, these stages, Caroline? Um,

[00:28:57] Caroline: well, the name is in the, in the, you [00:29:00] know, in what they are, but no, not,

[00:29:02] Sarah: not, not one word names.

[00:29:04] Okay. Yeah. So, so, um, we're, we're just really excited to go deeper into this topic of, um, of Outreach. Any, any last tips you'd like to, like, where could people start? Like, what's one challenge you can give them after listening to this episode?

[00:29:23] Caroline: I, I would say reach out to someone you admire on the internet and just, you know.

[00:29:28] Like a thank you. Yeah, and, and send them a thank you note. You know, a genuine note of appreciation. I think that it feels lovely to do it. The thing I love about that is it's lovely on both sides. So

[00:29:39] Sarah: it really is. I just got one yesterday from a client. Um, I, so this was a client, but it's still nice to, you know, years later, I, I barely remember her.

[00:29:50] She's like, Oh, I just want to thank you for the impact you had. I'm like, Oh, that's so nice. Just, it makes your day, right? So. Yeah, go and make [00:30:00] someone's day. Beautiful. Um, yeah, I'll mention your website again. Uh, Caroline, is it Leon? It's Spanish.

[00:30:12] And, uh, the workshop is at humane. marketing forward slash workshop. Please join us on November 8th. We'd love to have you there. Thanks so much for being here, Caroline. Thanks for having me.

[00:30:30] I hope you got some great value from listening to this episode. Find out more about Caroline and her work at www. carolineleon. com and check out her 7 Day Outreach Challenge at www. carolineleon. com forward slash outreach dash Challenge dash resources. And of course, please join us for the CoLab workshop, uh, about authentic outreach that takes place on November 8th [00:31:00] at 11:00 AM Eastern Time, 4:00 PM in the uk, and that is 5:00 PM Swiss time or uh, central European time.

[00:31:10] You can sign up at Humane Marketing slash workshop. This is a simple zoom registration, but there's a donation link in the subscription. The suggested price is 27, but, uh, just give less or more according to this principle of maximum sustainable generosity, which basically means you give whatever you. Can at this moment to make it still sustainable for yourself.

[00:31:41] You can do so before the workshop, but we'll also remind you again during and after the workshop. Please understand that the recording of this event is reserved for the Humane Marketing Circle. Members who pay a monthly membership fee, but, uh, get to attend all workshops for free and get access. [00:32:00] Which reminds me as well to let you know that, uh, Caroline is actually a member of the circle.

[00:32:08] I don't think I've mentioned it before. And talking about the circle, if you are looking for others who think like you, then why not join us in the Humane Marketing Circle and get access to all the workshops for free. You can find out more at humane. marketing. com And you find the show notes of this episode at humane.

[00:32:30] marketing. com Marketing forward slash H M 1 7 6. And on this beautiful page, you'll also find a series of free offers such as the Humane Business Manifesto, as well as my two books, Marketing Like We're Human and Selling Like We're Human. Thanks so much for listening and being part of a generation of marketers who cares for yourself, your clients, and the planet.

[00:32:56] We are change makers before we are marketers. So go [00:33:00] be the change you want to see.

In this episode of the Humane Marketing podcast, we dive into the 'P' of Pricing, exploring the art of authentic pricing conversations and strategies with our guest, Nikki Rausch, CEO of Sales Maven. Our conversation covers essential topics such as whether to list prices on your website, how to approach pricing objections, the delicate balance between transparency and personalization in pricing, and much more.

Join us in this discussion as we strive to make pricing a humane and ethical aspect of our businesses.

In this episode, we talked about:

• Whether we should list our prices on our website – or not
• How to have pricing conversations
• Whether to offer payment plans
• How to handle pricing objections
• And so much more

Ep 175

[00:00:00] Sarah: Hello, Humane Marketers. Welcome back to the Humane Marketing Podcast, the place to be for the generation of marketers that cares. This is a show where we talk about running your business in a way that feels good to you, is aligned with your values, and also resonates with today's conscious customers because it's humane, ethical, and non pushy.

[00:00:23] I'm Sarah Zanacroce, your hippie turned business coach for quietly rebellious entrepreneurs and marketing impact pioneers. Mama bear of the humane marketing circle and renegade author of marketing like we're human and selling like we're human. If after listening to the show for a while, you're ready to move on to the next level and start implementing and would welcome a community of like minded quietly rebellious entrepreneurs who discuss with transparency what works and what doesn't work in business.

[00:00:54] Then we'd love to welcome you in our humane marketing circle. If you're picturing your [00:01:00] typical Facebook group, let me paint a new picture for you. This is a closed community of like minded entrepreneurs from all over the world who come together once per month in a Zoom circle workshop to hold each other accountable and build their business in a sustainable way.

[00:01:16] We share with transparency and vulnerability what works for us and what doesn't work so that you can figure out what works for you. Instead of keep throwing spaghetti. On the wall and seeing what sticks. Find out more at humane dot marketing forward slash circle. And if you prefer one on one support from me, my humane business coaching could be just what you need.

[00:01:40] Whether it's for your marketing sales, general business building, or help with your big idea, like writing a book, I'd love to share my brain and my heart with you together with my almost. 15 years business experience and help you grow a sustainable business that is joyful and sustainable. If you love this [00:02:00] podcast, wait until I show you my mama bear qualities as my one-on-one client.

[00:02:05] You can find out more at Humane Marketing slash coaching. And finally, if you are a marketing impact pioneer and would like to bring Humane Marketing to your organization, have a look at my offers and workshops on my website at humane. marketing.

[00:02:30] Hello friends, welcome back to the Humane Marketing Podcast. Today's conversation fits under the P of pricing. If you are a regular here, thank you so much. You already know that I'm organizing the conversations around the seven P's of the Humane Marketing Mandala. And if this is your first time here, uh, you can download your one page marketing plan with the Humane Marketing version of the seven P's of marketing at humane.

[00:02:56] marketing forward slash one page. That's [00:03:00] the number one and the word page, and this comes with seven email prompts to really help you reflect on these different areas, these different P's in your business. So it's not. Prescriptive, but it really helps you, uh, think deeply about these things in your business.

[00:03:19] So today we're talking about pricing and I'm talking to Nikki Roush. Nikki is the CEO of SalesMaven. Where she helps people transform the misunderstood process of selling with 25 plus years of selling experience, entrepreneurs and small business owners now hire Nikki to show them how to sell successfully and authentically.

[00:03:42] Nikki has written three books, all available on Amazon, and she has a podcast called Sales Maven, which you can find on your favorite podcast platform. I. Really love this conversation. We talked about whether we should list our prices on our website or not, [00:04:00] how to have pricing conversations, whether to offer payment plans, how to handle pricings, objections, and so much more.

[00:04:09] Be ready to take some notes for this ones and let's dive in. Hi, Nikki. So good to spend time with you to talk about sales and. Pricing and putting prices and websites and all that good stuff. Welcome to the show.

[00:04:26] Nikki: Thanks for having me, Sarah. I'm really excited to have this conversation with you.

[00:04:29] Sarah: Yeah, same here.

[00:04:31] As I said offline, this question about putting our prices on our website or not, it's Whenever I bring this up in the humane marketing circle in our community, for example, it's like, oh, really, should we and here's why we shouldn't and like, all these different opinions. So I'm curious to, yeah, to start off our conversation, maybe with the prices and, uh, you know, you mentioned, or [00:05:00] I think I've seen it on your, um, On your website, this idea of the customer journey, right?

[00:05:05] And so take us a little bit into that customer journey. And when, what happens when people come to your website, what stage they're at probably in the customer journey and what happens when they do see the prices or if they don't see the prices.

[00:05:21] Nikki: Yeah. Yeah. Well, okay. So I just want to start off by saying that, you know, what I teach is always built on rapport.

[00:05:30] So I would say relationship first rapport always. So when somebody is coming to your website, they have indicated interest in some way, right? Like, Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You don't just randomly go to somebody's website and start poking around. So there's something about them that has drawn them here. And that, that is usually an indication that they're interested in working with you or, or buying from you or taking that next step with you.

[00:05:58] And the reason you want to have [00:06:00] pricing on your website is because. It is helping them establish whether or not they're an ideal client for you. So if somebody comes to your website and they don't see prices, one of the things that they often assume is that your prices are much higher. And in order for them to get that information from you, you're forcing them to take another step, which is to get on a live call with you.

[00:06:29] And I know that a lot of sales coaches teach, like, don't put pricing on your website because you want the opportunity to have that conversation with people. But that's for your benefit. Not for the clients or the prospects. So when you're forcing somebody to do something, what, what happens in the start of that conversation is they already feel a little bit on the back foot because they're nervous now about having that conversation with you because they have no idea what kind of pricing [00:07:00] you're gonna.

[00:07:00] Come back with and they might end up feeling embarrassed or ashamed to have to admit to you that they can't afford that. So, to me, it's a real breakdown and rapport for the start of the conversation for somebody to be nervous because what's the pricing? The other thing too, is it kind of sets the stage that, um, not only are you in charge of the conversation, but that you're.

[00:07:29] Okay. Like, how, how much do they trust you yet to have that conversation and for you to list pricing because how do they know that you're giving them a price and giving somebody else the same price? So there's, there's, to me, it shows a lack of trust. It also, I think it's important for you to stand in your credibility and in your authority and, and.

[00:07:51] Charge whatever it is that you charge and be revealing about it. You shouldn't have to hide your pricing in order to try to force people to have [00:08:00] conversations with you. You should be attracting your ideal clients, having them look at that and go, I do want to have a conversation with Nikki, or I do want to have a conversation with Sarah because I'm not sure what is the right offer for me, but I can tell already that she's got something.

[00:08:15] She's got something for me. Yeah, I

[00:08:18] Sarah: love, I love your approach and I definitely share the same you and, and you mentioned something where other sales coaches might tell people to not put their prices so that, you know, you get, people have to get on a sales conversation with you and you said that might be in your benefit.

[00:08:38] I actually don't see it as a benefit. And I'm sure a lot of my listeners won't either because. I feel like we don't want to be in that convincing energy on sales calls anyways, right? I agree. It's uncomfortable. Yeah. I actually think it's our, in our benefit. If [00:09:00] people have the prices. On the website. So they, they know exactly what to expect and you're, you're right.

[00:09:06] It's, it's so uncomfortable. The unknown and embarrassment comes in. It's just human to feel uncomfortable to talk about money. And so to have that upfront and just kind of like, okay, here's the deal. And also, like you said, it creates this trust of, there's not going to be any hidden stuff that I don't know and don't expect, and it's just like, it's all out there, totally agree.

[00:09:31] Nikki: Yeah, you know sales your job is not to convince people to buy from you and if you're approaching sales from this Mindset of like I've got to convince people Well convincing somebody of something It does come off a little manipulative and it does come off a little like icky and you know, I think one of the misconceptions about selling is that people think sales is something you do to another person and kind of taking a, you know, a page out of your book about that humane [00:10:00] approach.

[00:10:01] You shouldn't have to do anything to another person. I teach that sales is something you do with another person. It's a collaboration. And as much as you're deciding whether or not I'm a good fit for you, I'm also deciding whether or not you're a good fit for me, for my business. Can I really serve you and solve the problem or meet the need that you have?

[00:10:22] And being really candid and honest about that, and not in a way that I don't have to feel bad about myself if you're not a good fit, you don't have to feel bad about yourself if we're not a good fit. We just bless and release and move on. And that's okay.

[00:10:38] Sarah: I feel like it's, it takes that pressure out of this.

[00:10:42] What I call the gentle sales conversation, right? Um, in the selling like a human book, I say, you know, picture yourself in the serene garden where you're just having a cup of tea or coffee with your ideal client. And, and there, the money doesn't even come [00:11:00] in or it comes in very shortly at the end because it's already dealt with, right?

[00:11:04] I, I even send out like a coaching guide where again, it explains, you know, here's how Our collaboration works. Here's the price again. And like they have time to look at this in detail before we ever get on a call. And so then we just have time to be human together and do what you said. It's like, Oh, we're figuring out if we're a good fit and if I can truly help you.

[00:11:29] And it's kind of like this being human and trying to do something to someone like you said.

[00:11:37] Nikki: Yeah, yeah, exactly. I totally agree. I

[00:11:39] Sarah: love that. Thank you. Yeah. So in terms of the pricing, it looks like we totally agree yet. I think sometimes people asked, well, what if I have custom projects? You know, it's like, what if I don't work hourly and it's not just like, oh, my hourly rate is this.

[00:11:58] I create custom [00:12:00] projects. So I can put. The prices on the website or can I is there another solution you offer?

[00:12:07] Nikki: Yeah, you actually still can. You could put a range now and I want to be really clear about this because a lot of times people think, well, I'll just put a. A starting at price and that's a mistake.

[00:12:20] If, if you put a starting at price, you just have anchored this low price and that's not what you want to do, especially you get on a call with somebody, you find out, you know, how in depth their project is and that starting at price isn't even close to what the price is that you're going to. Have to charge them in order to facilitate it.

[00:12:40] So you can put a range. You could say prices, you know, for this type of project range typically between, you know, and you, you know, have the low price to the high price. And it can, I don't care if it's a thousand dollars, John or a thousand dollars, just by putting a range, it shows that you're being revealing.

[00:12:56] Now you don't want to put, you don't want to say something that's not [00:13:00] true. So always stand in integrity. And if you know that projects. Could potentially range between 30, 000 and 100, 000 put that and then when they get on the call with you and you say to them, you know, based on what you've shared the, the project, you know, that we're looking at here is probably in that 70, 000 range.

[00:13:19] Well, they can feel relieved because it's not the high end. They're like. At least it's not 100, 000. But if you say 30, 000 to, you know, just starting at 30, 000 and then you say 70, 000 to them, they're going to be upset. They're going to feel like, oh, wow, you're gouging me. No, I'm giving you a legitimate price and I have been candid about this is the range, right?

[00:13:45] Sarah: Yeah, so is that similar to the the idea of anchoring?

[00:13:51] Nikki: Yeah, exactly. That's exactly what it is Yeah, so so you wouldn't just put the high price here because that that is a way to anchor [00:14:00] the high price But you wouldn't want to do that because that would probably scare off the people that would fall in the smaller, you know Pricing.

[00:14:06] So put a range on the website. Now, when you talk about your offer or you talk about the ways that you could solve the problem for them in a conversation, I do believe in doing top down selling. So that is anchoring the higher price first and then work your way down from there. And again, you always want to stand in your place of integrity, don't recommend 100, 000 project.

[00:14:30] If that is so outside of scope of what's going to solve their problem, you know, you still have to show up from a place of integrity, which I suspect that all of your listeners already are committed to doing that, right? This is what would attract them to listen to you and follow you. So they're already not going to recommend something that's out of.

[00:14:50] You know, out of reach or out of scope or out of integrity, frankly, but when you say to somebody, you know, based on what you've shared, there are 3 ways that we could work together. We [00:15:00] could, and you're going to start at the top. You're going to say we could do the full package, you know, the full project.

[00:15:06] It's going to get you everything that you want. And the pricing for that is this. You know, we could also kind of start in the middle where we could get most of the things you want to see how it's going and then, you know, whatever. And the price and now this is a smaller price and you go, or if you're just wanting the basic package just to get that first piece.

[00:15:26] You know, done for you, then it's this price. So you always start top down. And the reason you do that is the way our brains work as humans. We come out of the womb already knowing how to grasp like babies already know how to grasp things, right? Like now. You ever help hold a baby and they get a hold of your hair like, you know, you know, they already like nobody had to teach them how to pull hair.

[00:15:52] Like they know how to grasp. So as humans, we like to, we like to attach to things. So when you start at the [00:16:00] top and you work your way down, it's easier for people to make a decision that is a better decision for them because they don't like to have, they don't like to give up things. In order to get what they want, but on the flip side of this, the reason you don't start at the bottom and work your way up is because we don't like to pay more to get what we need.

[00:16:21] Sarah: Yeah, I'm gonna say that again. We don't want to pay more to get what we need. So that's why we start from the top and work. So that's interesting because usually what I heard is, um, you know, sales coaches would say, oh, mention your price and then just. Like probably the highest price and then just stop talking and see what the reaction is where you are saying, no, give all the options starting from the top and then have a conversation around it.

[00:16:58] Is that correct? [00:17:00] Well,

[00:17:00] Nikki: uh, almost, I'm going to say almost, I'm going to, I'm going to, if I can just clarify a little bit around that. So. I'm totally fine. If I have a conversation with you, you tell me what you need. And I have a specific program that is going to meet your needs. I'm happy to say, you know, based on what you've shared, the program that is going to meet the things that you've talked about, it's going to get you this, this and this.

[00:17:26] And 10, 000. Now, I'm If you clutch your pearls and go like, Oh, my God, 10, 000 sticky, that's a little rich for my blood, right? I might have missed the mark a little bit there with you. So I sometimes, you know, based on what people have shared, there are a couple different ways where, you know, a couple ways for them to get it.

[00:17:52] So if you're going to lay out more than one option for somebody, don't ever give them more than three, Okay. Initially to make a decision [00:18:00] with, and when you do that, if you're going to say, you know, there's a couple of ways that I, you know, like just a basic question. So just to give you a real life example, if somebody said to me, you know, Nikki, what are the, what are the ways that you work with clients?

[00:18:14] Have a lot of ways that I work with clients, but I'm never going to answer that question when with more than three answers So I'm gonna say, you know, I have private coaching clients I have classes that I offer and then I have a group coaching program of those three Which are you most interested in hearing more about now?

[00:18:32] I haven't actually listed pricing But if they say what you know, what are the three ways or what other ways you work with clients? What's the pricing I could say? I have private coaching. It ranges from this to this. I have classes. They typically are priced at this. I have a group coaching program and it's a monthly.

[00:18:50] You know, payment. And it's this of those three, which are you most interested in hearing more about? Because if I try to tell somebody all the ways I work with [00:19:00] them, I will overwhelm them and an overwhelmed mind is not going to buy. They're not going to make a decision. So I have to be the expert. I have to be the person that will stand in my place of authority and recommend because I've asked you the right questions.

[00:19:18] Thank you. What's the right solution for you?

[00:19:21] Sarah: So to come back to my question about, you know, do you state all three or just the one and then wait for an answer? Um, I guess it depends whether they have a very specific request and, you know, you basically already talked about something that is very. Fitting for their needs, then you would just offer that.

[00:19:41] And then maybe from there, if they're like, Oh, that's a little bit high. Is there anything else we could do? Then you could offer your group coaching, for example. So it's really just kind of going with the flow. That's how I've always done it. And it feels good to be able to offer. Different solutions, [00:20:00] depending on, you know, depending on the budget that people have and then say, well, you know, maybe we can do this.

[00:20:07] And sometimes I even come up with new offers and say, well, Okay. You know, I really want to help you because you're, you know, doing such good work for a cause that really is important to me. And then, you know, I'll come up with with a new offer or add them to a program as well as my 1 on 1 coaching things like that.

[00:20:28] I think we can. One thing that I learned with pricing and selling is like, we are taking ourselves often too seriously. Like we, we think we have to be just, you know, rigid kind of business owners. And it's like, well, actually, you know, you, you can still make money and just be a bit more in the flow. Um, I don't know what you think about that, Nikki.

[00:20:49] I

[00:20:50] Nikki: agree with you 100%. I think, you know, um, if I could just comment on what I'm hearing you say, and you please correct me if this is not [00:21:00] in alignment, is that the sales, the sales conversation. Is a conversation, right? And so it has this back and forth flow. You shouldn't just be talking at people the whole time.

[00:21:14] And so you should talk with and the way to talk with people oftentimes is to ask questions. So if you lay out an offer and somebody's like, Oh. That's a little bit more than what I was expecting, then my next thing I'm going to say to you isn't to shame you or try to push you into it. I'm going to follow up and say, well, what were you expecting?

[00:21:36] Like, it's a conversation and then you come back at me and I say, well, I do have maybe a way we could get started together. And I do think as a, you know, depending on the size of your business and who's doing the selling in your business, if you're a solopreneur entrepreneur, like there is something about being a little nimble, you know, being, I always say my all time favorite quote is blessed are the flexible [00:22:00] for, they shall not be bent out of shape.

[00:22:03] And the idea in your sales conversation. Is to have some flexibility, you know, if you identify the person I'm talking to right now is an ideal client, they definitely have a need and I feel compelled to want to serve them in some way, you know, I wouldn't develop a new product offering for every single conversation because then you're going to probably burn yourself out, frankly, in your business, but sometimes you can add a little tweak here and there, you know, every once in a while, somebody like I just had somebody yesterday.

[00:22:34] Okay. I put out an offer on a training and somebody followed up with me and said, you know, Nikki, I really want to do this with you, but I can't start it, you know, until after the first of the year. And I said, well, I'm happy to wait, you know, like I, I didn't tell anybody else that, but this is what this person needs.

[00:22:57] And so I'll do that for that person. Cause [00:23:00] I have the ability to make that decision in my business. Yeah,

[00:23:04] Sarah: that so resonates. We also talked about humane payment plans in the community, uh, recently. And that's another thing that we feel strongly about. It's kind of this integrity piece where we, if we are safe ourselves, right, if we have enough to pay our bills.

[00:23:23] And and yet someone is struggling a little bit and can't make the whole payment and then, you know, why would we make payment plans that are non humane where it's like, oh, now you have to pay 20 percent more just because you can't make the one full time payment. And so we were just discussing how can we make it a win win situation where it's like.

[00:23:48] Yeah, I really want you to have this program or coaching or whatever it is. And yet, you know, there needs to be a huge trust and that trust [00:24:00] I now see is established already before, right? Obviously through your marketing, that's what humane marketing is all about, but even through the pricing, uh, like having these prices on your website.

[00:24:13] That also creates trust because it's like, well, it's all up there, you know, it's all understood and clear and, um, yeah, I think there's a lot of integrity to that. Um, yeah, just curious what you think about payment plans and if you have any thoughts on that.

[00:24:30] Nikki: I love the idea of payment plans. As long as it's still like you said, it's, it's not, it's not hurting your business, you know, from a cash flow standpoint, it's not causing you to not be able to pay your vendors or pay your team or something like that.

[00:24:44] Then I think there's nothing wrong with a payment plan. As a matter of fact, I love payment plans. And even the program that I mentioned yesterday that I offered when you go to the, you know, to the Page to sign up right underneath there. There's an option for a [00:25:00] payment plan. Sometimes I promote payment plans heavily and mark, you know, and I'm marketing an offer.

[00:25:06] Sometimes I don't. I just put them, you know, subtly on the page for somebody because if they've clicked with an interest and they've shown some interest by clicking on the page and wanting to learn more about whatever the offer is, Yeah. And if there's some part of them, it's like, dang, I'd really like to do this, but I don't have this, you know, I don't have that much money right now available to spend on, you know, coaching with Dickie or whatever they see like, oh, there's a payment plan there.

[00:25:33] And for me, it's. It's fine. Like, I'm, I'm happy to do that. Um, I will say, you know, just to comment on payment plans. One, one, one thing that I think sometimes can be a limiting, um, belief around payment plans for entrepreneurs, for business owners is they think that the payment plan has to be the same amount.

[00:25:58] Over a certain [00:26:00] period of time. So, for instance, I'm going to do a payment plan. That means I've got to break it up into, you know, it's a 3 month program. So it has to be 3 of the exact same payments and and that to me isn't always the case. Sometimes if a lot of the work, the heavy lifting is done in that first, you know, part of working together, I often will give people the option of paying 50 percent up front because I know that my like the majority of the work that I'm doing, the really heavy lifting and the stuff that costs my business, the money, you know, to it.

[00:26:36] You know, pay for whatever the extras are, the stuff that comes like I need to be able to cover those costs. But then what I'll do is then I will split up the other 50 percent over the next two months or whatever. Like there's so make sure that you're giving yourself a little bit of flexibility in your payment plans to you don't want to make it confusing or crazy.

[00:26:56] But, you know, I just had a client where I was coaching her around this [00:27:00] and she was like, it's so hard for me to do a payment plan because of all the costs involved in that first month. And I was like, well, what if we collected 50%? And she was like, would people do that? And I was like, People do it with me all the time.

[00:27:13] Let's try it. And then she came back and she's like, they were so happy to do it that way. And I was like, yeah, again, blessed are the flexible. You don't have to be bent out of shape, be willing to do things that work for your business, but also make it easy for people to say yes to hiring you. That's a good

[00:27:30] Sarah: reminder, because again, the humane approach is not just serving your clients.

[00:27:36] It's also serving yourself. And so it really is important that you don't get into trouble because you're, you know, making everything possible for them, where then you are struggling in the back. So, so it's really just, yeah, having the conversation and saying, look, I'd love to offer you this. Uh, but this is what I need, right.

[00:27:57] And then have this conversation. And I think [00:28:00] it really comes with this trust building that is so important. And I think that's also where you can, you just said, you know, you wouldn't have offered to wait to just anybody who will ask, but this person, that's what they needed. And so you're like, yeah, I'm happy to do that.

[00:28:19] So in a way it's like, well, just because you have a standard program or a standard fee doesn't mean you have to exactly do the same thing for everybody because, um, especially, you know, in the service business, we are, we're in the human business. And so we should be talking to people about these things.

[00:28:41] We shouldn't just say this is. You know how it is and that's it. And yet so often that's what we're taught in sales. It's like, no, you come up with your price and that's how it is. And you know, no flexibility at all. So, yeah, yeah, appreciate your input

[00:28:57] Nikki: here. Yeah. It, is it okay if I just add [00:29:00] like one little piece to this idea of payment plan in the conversation of the sale?

[00:29:04] Right. Um, So one of the things that I think is important also to remember is so if you're having a conversation with a prospective client and you talk about the offer and they say, Oh, my gosh. You know, that sounds perfect for me, but really, I just don't have the funds right now to do that. One of the cautions that I would say is don't default to the payment plan conversation check to see if the payment plan conversation is appropriate.

[00:29:35] So I was. I always look at things of like asking permission. So instead of, you know, somebody pushes back on price, if you go right into the payment plan option without getting their permission to talk about it, it, it can come off a little salesy and aggressive. So when somebody pushes back to me on price, I will usually say, now, if I was able to offer you a payment plan, would that be something [00:30:00] you'd be interested in considering?

[00:30:01] And would that make it more feasible for you? Right, so I don't go into the payment plan because if they say no, Nikki, even with a payment plan, I just couldn't do it, then I'm going to respect that and I'm going to pull back. But if you go right into payment plan again, it sounds like you're kind of ignoring what they said to you that they can't afford it.

[00:30:21] But I'm glad you brought that up.

[00:30:23] Sarah: Yeah, that's so important because yeah, we're not trying to push the payment plan somebody. Right? Because it's like this. You know, praise no is an answer. And, and, and it's really, that's what it is. It's like, if they just don't want to, or can't, then, then we should respect that.

[00:30:43] And a payment plan is not going to solve that. That's so true. It's a very different energy when they asked for the payment plan, whether one kind of. You know, bring on the topic and actually want to kind of push them towards the payment plan. I totally [00:31:00] agree. I don't think I ever bring it up. Um, yeah, I, I would probably rather go, you know, offer another solution, like the group coaching or something like that.

[00:31:12] And then maybe they would come back and say, actually, you know, do you offer a payment plan? So, because I think they're quite. No, now, and so sometimes people, you know, often people ask me about payment plans. So yeah, that's a good distinction. Thanks so much for for bringing that in. Yeah.

[00:31:30] Nikki: Thank you for letting me.

[00:31:33] Sarah: Um, anything else you want to share about. Prices and payments and selling conversations, um, shared a lot of things, but anything else that comes to mind?

[00:31:45] Nikki: Well, one of the things that I want to, um, maybe just touch on in case this is helpful for your audience is. There's a difference between being pushy and aggressive in a sales conversation versus making it easy for somebody to [00:32:00] make a decision.

[00:32:01] So I, I find that a lot of times when people are uncomfortable with sales, they're hesitant to ask somebody to move forward or invite them to take that next step with them. And. I want to just say in a really loving kind way that that's your stuff and you need to set it aside. That's your mindset stuff because your job is to make it really easy for people to make decisions.

[00:32:25] Doesn't mean the decision's always going to go in your favor. But you still want to make sure that if you are talking to somebody and they've got a need and they've got, they've expressed interest in some way, please, please, please make sure that you ask them for their business so that they can decide in the moment whether or not it's the right next step for them.

[00:32:47] But if you don't ask them, Don't assume that they'll decide because our brains are lazy and we have decision fatigue and we're overwhelmed. And so if you don't make it easy for somebody, a lot of times they'll be like, Oh, I'm just going to think [00:33:00] about it. But then they actually never think about it because they have too many other things to think about.

[00:33:05] And then they don't ever get the solution to the problem or the need that they have. So make sure you always follow up in, in the appropriate time in a conversation. And go ahead and ask for the sale, ask for the business and then be quiet and let them say one way or the other.

[00:33:22] Sarah: Yeah, thanks for that reminder.

[00:33:25] One, one thing that also just, I remember there's a question that I always ask about expectations because we talked, you mentioned integrity a few times and I do. And just earlier, before I call, I had another email or LinkedIn message from someone who bought a big package and was disillusioned because of, you know, promises that were not kept.

[00:33:47] And so I think it's really important that piece of, um. Expectations to ask in a gentle sales conversation. Well, what's your expectations for our work together, you know, to really [00:34:00] understand what they're expecting and what you can actually be in full integrity deliver, because that again. It helps you understand where there are and what their actual beliefs are.

[00:34:13] And it also helps this trust building again. And then it's just kind of like, you know, it's, it's setting the stage for a beautiful collaboration. Then have not addressing it. And the person thinking, oh, I'm going to get 20 new clients from this and. You, meanwhile, not thinking that at all, right? You're like, no, this is, you know, I can't promise that.

[00:34:35] So just putting it out into the open and having a conversation about that is really important, I think. I

[00:34:42] Nikki: love that you said that and commented on that. It's you know, you never want to you never want to over promise and under deliver. But at the same time, you don't if you don't understand what your client has in their mind because they haven't been given the opportunity to articulate it.

[00:34:59] You [00:35:00] may. In inadvertently leave them feeling like you over promised and under delivered and how Disappointing not only is that to them But also for you and it starts to get in your head and you start to think well Maybe i'm not as good as I think I am or maybe my offer isn't the right offer Like all of that negative mindset could have been avoided doing exactly what you just said sarah.

[00:35:23] I love that so much

[00:35:26] Sarah: This has been wonderful. Thanks so much for For being here and doing such good work. Nikki, please do tell us where people can find you. And I believe you have a, an offer

[00:35:36] Nikki: for us as well. I do. Thank you so much for having me. Um, I always like to give a gift when I get to come and be with somebody and spend some time in front of their audience.

[00:35:46] So I have a course, it's a really short little training, and it talks about the five steps to a sales conversation. That's my signature framework. It's called mastering the sales conversation, and it will give you the five steps [00:36:00] and what to say or do in those five steps that isn't, it's not script. It's teaching you how to show up and be your authentic, genuine self in those conversations.

[00:36:09] So you can get that by going to your sales maven. com forward slash humane. And that'll be there for you. It's free. You can download it. And once you do that, then we'll be connected.

[00:36:20] Sarah: Wonderful. Thank you so much. Which, uh, social platform are you usually, uh, most active on,

[00:36:27] Nikki: Nikki? I tend to be the most active on LinkedIn and Instagram, but I also have a podcast too called Sales Maven.

[00:36:34] So since you're, you know, these are your listeners, if they are looking for another podcast to check out, I would encourage them to check out the Sales Maven

[00:36:42] Sarah: podcast. Wonderful. Yeah. And as you know, I always have a last question and that is what are you grateful for today or this week?

[00:36:51] Nikki: You know what i'm most grateful for today is that the weather here where I live in Boise, Idaho is starting to shift And i'm so excited for fall And we're [00:37:00] starting to let go of some of those really hot days.

[00:37:03] So i'm so grateful for the change in the season

[00:37:05] Sarah: Wonderful. Yeah. And over here it's like an Indian summer. It's still warm, but definitely crisp in the morning and at night. So that's lovely. Yeah. Wonderful. Thanks so much for hanging out Nikki.

[00:37:19] Nikki: Thanks for having me.

[00:37:26] Sarah: Did you take some notes? I hope you got great value from listening to this episode. You can find out more about Nikki and her work at yoursalesmaven. com. And she's also offering us a free resource about being our confidence in the sales conversation and you'll find that at your sales maven dot com forward slash humane.

[00:37:49] And as always, if you're looking for others who think like you, then why not join us in the humane marketing circle where we have deep conversations about marketing, [00:38:00] but also about selling and pricing and. Humane payment plans, and all of this good stuff. You can find out more at humane. marketing. com forward slash circle.

[00:38:11] You'll find the show notes of this episode at humane. marketing. com forward slash H M 1 7 5 on this beautiful page. You also find a series of free offers such as the humane business manifesto, as well as my two books, marketing like we're human and selling like we're human. Thank you so much for listening and being part of a generation.

[00:38:33] We are marketers who cares for yourself, your clients, and the planet. We are change makers before we are marketers. So go be the change you want to see in the world. Speak soon.