The Humane Marketing Show. A podcast for a generation of marketers who care.

In this episode I welcome Theresa Sansone for an insightful conversation about the power of connecting with your future self.

Together, we explore what it truly means to visualize your future self, both personally and professionally, and how this approach differs from traditional goal setting by focusing on relaxing into your unique blueprint rather than chasing external goals. Discover how future memories and tuning into your energetic frequency can provide wisdom and guidance, why aligning with your inner potential is essential, and practical strategies for tending to your energy even when immediate change isn't possible.

This episode is designed to inspire entrepreneurs to create a life and business that feels authentic and aligned, moving away from one-size-fits-all success formulas and embracing a more humane, heart-centered path.

In this episode we talked about:

• The concept of visualizing your future self and what it means both personally and professionally.
• The difference between self-visualization and traditional goal setting, emphasizing "relaxing into" your blueprint rather than chasing external goals.
• How "future memories" and connecting with your future self can provide wisdom and guidance.
• The idea of everyone having a unique inner blueprint (likened to an acorn's potential to become an oak tree) and the importance of aligning with it.
• The importance of tuning into the energetic "frequency" of your future self, using the metaphor of tuning forks to explain alignment and attraction.
• Strategies for tending to your energy, especially when you cannot change your circumstances immediately
• and so much more

Watch this episode on YouTube

Theresa's Resources

Theresa's Website

Future Self Now Playbook

Download the Future Self Now Visualization

Follow Theresa on LinkedIn

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Speaker 2:  hello, humane marketers. welcome back to the humane marketing podcast. the place to be for the generation that cares. this is a show where we talk about running your business in a way that feels good to you, is aligned with your values, and also resonates with today's conscious customers because it's humane, ethical, and non pushy. i'm sarah senecroce, your hippie turned conscious business coach for quietly rebellious entrepreneurs and change makers, mama bear of the humane marketing circle, and renegade author of marketing like we're human, selling like we're human, and soon also my third book, business like we're human. if after listening to the show for a while, you're ready to move on to the next level and start implementing and would welcome a community of like minded, quietly rebellious entrepreneurs who discuss with transparency what works and what doesn't work in business, then we'd love to welcome you in our humane marketing circle. if you're picturing your typical facebook group, let me paint a new picture for you. this is a closed community of like minded entrepreneurs from all over the world who come together in two meetups per month to hold each other accountable and build their business in a conscious and sustainable way. we all share with transparency and vulnerability what works and what doesn't work in our business so that you can figure out what works for you, instead of keep throwing spaghetti on the wall and seeing what sticks. find out more at humane dot marketing forward slash circle. twice per year, i host my signature program, the marketing like we're human, aka the client resonator program live. in a deep dive into the seven p's of the humane marketing mandala, you will learn to market from within. this program is for you if you want and need to get more clients, but want to share your message in an ethical and humane way. if you want to make a difference with your work. if you are just starting out, or if you have been in business for a while, but haven't really found the marketing activities that work for you. or also, if you are pivoting your business from business as usual to your life's work and want to radically change the way you get clients. find out more at humane dot marketing forward slash program. and finally, if you prefer one on one support from me, my humane business coaching could be just what you need, whether it's for your marketing, sales, general business building, or help with your big idea like writing a book. i'd love to share my brain and my heart with you together with my almost twenty years business experience and help you grow a sustainable business that is joyful and sustainable. if you love this podcast, wait until i show you my mama bear qualities as my one on one client. find out more at humane dot marketing forward slash coaching.

Speaker 3:  hello, friends. welcome back to another episode on the humane marketing podcast. today's conversation fits under the p of personal power. if you're a regular here, you know that i'm organizing the conversations around the seven p's of the humane marketing mandala. and if you're new here and don't know what i'm talking about, you can download your one page marketing plan with the humane marketing version of the seven p's of marketing at humane.marketing/ one page. that's the number one and the word page. and humane is human with an e at the end. this comes with seven email prompts to really help you reflect on these p's for your own business. today, i'm talking to theresa sansone about future self visualizations. theresa has been coaching leaders, innovators, and creators for over twenty five years, helping them activate their inner wisdom, visualize their fullest potential, and create a future that's as authentic as it is impactful. she's also chair of the association of sustainability practitioners, an international community of sustainability practitioners learning and acting together to create truly sustainable futures. and that's also how we met thanks to the introduction of will. thanks so much, will. there is a chapter about my experience with future self visualization in the reimagine part of the business like we're human book because i really see it as a great tool to imagine our future life and work deeply aligned with whom we are. so i'm super excited to share this episode with you, and we talked about the concept of visualizing your future self and what it means both personally and professionally. the difference between self visualization and traditional goal setting. emphasizing relaxing into your blueprint rather than chasing external goals. how future memories and connecting with your future self can provide wisdom and guidance, the idea of everyone having a unique inner blueprint and the importance of aligning with it, the importance also of tuning into the energetic frequency of your future self, using the metaphor of tuning forks to explain alignment and attraction. attraction. you'll notice that threesome is really good with metaphors. strategies for tending to your energy, especially when you cannot change your circumstances immediately, and so much more. so let's visualize our future selves with risa sanson.

Speaker 0:  hi, theresa. it's lovely to connect with you again. i'm so excited to have you.

Speaker 1:  thank you for having me.

Speaker 0:  yeah. it's wonderful. it's such a a timely topic because as, we were connected actually, we we need to do a shout out to will nuit to connect with us. so thank you, will. and yeah. i can't remember exactly why he thought we would, you know, really hit it off. but but then when when i saw the topic of of your expertise, which is visualizing your future self, i thought, well, how timely because it's a chapter in my business like we're human book, and i think it really is this thing that right now we need to reimagine new things. right? and that has to do with, yeah, the the future and with our future selves, but also the future of humanity. so tell us a little but you for you, yes, it's timely, but you've been doing this for a long time. so tell us a little bit, you know, yes, what it means to visualize your future self, what it means to you, but also how how you got into this, like, twenty years ago. right?

Speaker 1:  yeah. well, i've been coaching for twenty five years plus.

Speaker 0:  wow. yeah.

Speaker 1:  and i was in it. i knew it was not for me. it just wasn't working. i knew there was something more. i knew there was a sort of an essence of me that wasn't being expressed. so several kind of programs and courses later, i, really, came alive to that there was absolutely more for me to to give. and, i came across the book the artist's way that many of your viewers may well know. i became a coach and i started primarily teaching that, about how to rediscover your self expression and really be sort of following your true path. but it was a lot around, you know, your our creative selves. and i did that for thirteen years, running 12 workshops, you know, in person, and latterly online and so on. so, i became really alive to what can happen when people really reconnect with themselves, their true essence. and often it is a very sort of creative side. right? and, go beyond all the programming and the sort of social constructs that we get, you know, battered by over the years. and, but then, you know, i'd been having a kind of waking dream about, this version of me that was living in a fantastic home and that was, just enjoying a moment over a cup of coffee where she was sort of taking that all in and, enjoying that. and then my family sort of suddenly appeared, and we all went away. we were all going out the front door with suitcases because i was giving a speech in paris. and, and this just wasn't something i was going to share with anyone because it sounded a bit kind of outlandish at the time. and but it wouldn't go away. this was a a it felt more like a memory. in fact, nowadays, i call them future memories because it felt so real. and it just suddenly occurred to me that i could experimented with that and, talked to her and blow me down. she was answering back with a lot of really great wisdom. so i thought i knew i was sort of on to something. so i then was grabbing every kind of warm human being that i could possibly find and put them on my couch and and getting them to try this visualization that i came up with to sort of connect to that part of, you know, that i knew was inside of all all of us. and, and everybody found a connection. so it was wonderful. and i you know, i've been doing it now for sort of nearly fifteen years, these, these visualisations. and there's only been one time when somebody hasn't got their future self, and that was because they'd been frog marched to me by their aunt.

Speaker 0:  yeah. you know, it

Speaker 1:  wasn't a sort of a a sort of willing, participant. but, yeah, i mean, everybody has this. this. so it's, like, really very, very, you know, revealing that this is a truth that we all hold inside of ourselves. like, who we are able to become if we just relax into our own blueprint. so i liken it to an acorn, has the blueprint of oak tree in it, but it doesn't look anything like an oak tree. mhmm. nor is it the size of an oak tree. but it knows, if you like, that to to just relax into its blueprint and it becomes an oak tree. mhmm. and we are no different. we have a blueprint that is absolutely special to us. we're all different. and if we relax into that and let that unfold and really know that that's who we are, then we will become oak tree. so this is a process of getting in touch with your oak tree ness, as i say.

Speaker 0:  yeah. and and, you know, several times now you said relax into. right? yeah. and so maybe another question is how is self visualization different from, like, the traditional goal setting?

Speaker 1:  mhmm.

Speaker 0:  right? which is very action oriented. so not so much relaxing into. so tell

Speaker 1:  me yeah.

Speaker 0:  talk about the difference.

Speaker 1:  well, that paradigm is about chasing, you know, about tracking down, making things happen. it's about push and shove and all of that. it's about trying to insert ourselves into life. this is not that. this is this is, as i say, following your own inner blueprint, and it's an inner knowing. mhmm. so it's we all have it, and often it doesn't take much to peep for people to admit, yeah, i've always known i can be and do more. and that still small voice inside of us that's calling out for that is your oak tree ness. mhmm. it's that part of you that knows what you're capable of, knows what you're here for, and knows what you're capable of in terms of, you know, your being your expanded fully realized self. and so we're tuning into a knowing. we're not kind of goal setting, as you say, and, like, aspirationally trying to go for something that may not even be ourselves. right? so people might think the the word is think. right? they might think they know what it is, but it's nothing to do with what the heart and soul, if you like, know.

Speaker 0:  well, it's usually the the definitions of success that come from the outside in. right? like, the career development that you should have, and and and that's outside in instead of inside out. yeah.

Speaker 1:  exactly. i use those very words when, i i also work with with organisations.

Speaker 0:  mhmm.

Speaker 1:  and, yeah, i use those very words. right? it's not outside in. it's inside out. and, obviously, in organizations, that is a, you know, completely different way of doing things.

Speaker 0:  yeah. i wanna i wanna talk about that as well because yeah. when you taught yeah. told me that you're bringing this into our organizations, i'm like, wow. you know, this is yeah. it's a paradigm shift, right, that we're completely, yeah, unknown territory for for organizations for sure, but even even for people, i would say. like, and so you let me through one of these, visualizations, which was which was amazing. and i had done it before, and i had, you know, kind of transcribed, my experience in the in this chapter. as a person who is actually not i'm not necessarily comfortable with visualizing. right? and i told you that and and you're like, don't worry about it. it's like it's more of this feeling, this knowing.

Speaker 1:  yes.

Speaker 0:  and so really that's what came up. right? it wasn't like i wasn't seeing myself necessarily in future situations, but it was more like a deep knowing. and i think that's very aligned with, you know, my idea of of changing our relationship to work as well, which is less about the doing and more about the being. and therefore, if we are more in this being, right, then we yeah. we we are we need to be less in the doing. so talk to me about, you know, what kind of different experiences people have when and and maybe just explain what it looks like when you have, when you do a session like that.

Speaker 1:  yeah. no. it's a really good point. and and and it's very pivotal. i always set it up with people that you may not see anything.

Speaker 0:  right.

Speaker 1:  this is not about visualising in a way. i mean, it's just an easy word because everybody knows what it is. but it's not about pictures. for all that i saw pictures, and some people do, it's really not necessary. what's necessary is that we're tuning into, the way of being, if you like. the the the essence, the feeling of right. your future self. and if we have that, then we have everything we need to align to your future self. so the way this works is forever however we are energetically in life is what we attract. so i use the metaphor of tuning forks. so if i have the tuning fork for c, note c in my hand, and i have a row of tuning forks on the table, only one of which is tuned to c, and i ping my c tuning fork, then it's only the c tuning fork on the table that's going to vibrate. mhmm. so if we wanna become our future selves, and this applies to organisations too, if we wanna become our future selves, then we have to resonate at sea in order to attract the future self that is sea. mhmm. and how do we how do we align? well, we've gotta know energetically who our future self is.

Speaker 0:  mhmm.

Speaker 1:  and then we can align. but until we're you know, whilst we're in confusion, oh, you know, that person's saying that, society's saying that, my teachers told me that. right? we're not we don't know really what the vibration is that we're trying to line up to. right? so and so once we're equipped with the know the knowledge that our future self resonates in this way, energetically, in other words, they have these kind of values, they they they approach life in these ways, then, you know, it's much much easier to go, okay. and that is why my program is called future self now. mhmm. because the only way we can align is in the now. yeah. that's all we've got. so we have to be looking after tending to the quality of our energy right now. and is it aligned as much as possible to my future self's energy? and and the more i do that, the more i can do it. i mean, none of us perfect. right? but the more i can and the more i'm kind of aware that that's my goal, then the more that's gonna come towards us. right? so the quicker it will come towards us. yeah. so that's that's the game.

Speaker 0:  i love this image of the, of the tuning forks. and and what i thought of when you were explaining that is, like, it also matters who's around those tuning forks. right? because the frequency or the resonance of other people constantly influences you. and and it's interesting because i'm just going to the market through the marketing, like, we're human program where we're talking about human design and how we are wired. and then this lady is like, well, i think i'm just surrounded by the wrong people. and i'm like, totally, totally true. like, that's what happened to me when i pivoted the business. and it's like, if you're with the wrong people, then obviously you always feel awkward, being yourself. right?

Speaker 1:  yeah. yeah.

Speaker 0:  so you need to actually also change the people that you surround yourself with. yeah.

Speaker 1:  if you know that that affects you and you're tending to the quality of your energy mhmm. and your the quality of your energy is the number one priority right. then you need to do something about that. now sometimes we don't have any choice. because say it's your boss. yeah. so now you've got to change energetically about the boss.

Speaker 0:  right.

Speaker 1:  now it doesn't mean that you stay with that company, you know, like it might be time to go. right? but whilst you have to, what i say to people is you have to change the energy of how you're approaching the boss in order to attract something different from them.

Speaker 0:  right.

Speaker 1:  so, i mean, just a quick example of this is my husband who was having a terrible time with a, colleague at work, and and i and i asked him to think think about the things that he appreciated about that person. and he was like nothing. nothing's nothing's very good about them. but i said you know next time you go into meeting because this person was you know being very disingenuous and very critical in meetings and things like that. i said, next time you go to a meeting, just concentrate on the things that you enjoy about that person. he said he couldn't think of anything, of course, at but then we we went into it because all you have to do is a tiny, tiny thing. and he said, well, they're good with their team.

Speaker 0:  mhmm.

Speaker 1:  and they they they dress smartly. right? and it sounds ridiculous, but it doesn't matter because you can imagine yeah. going in and the energy of that mhmm. changes the dynamic immediately. and he did that. and at the end of the meeting, the woman praised what he'd been doing in front of everyone. it was a completely different wow. but also what happened was two weeks later, that person resigned and, went on. so, like, there is this concept that you can curate what's around you by how you be energetically. and everything that's not a match yeah. to your energy has a tendency to just sort of fall off. it's something mhmm. to put to the test. right? but, yeah. it's it's a a fascinating and very deep and wide subject to this thing about how we are energetically and what we can attract. right?

Speaker 0:  so you mentioned the the name of your program is your future self now. now. when we visualize ourselves, though we see or we feel, well, the future self. right? and so how do we manage the uncertainty or the path from being who we are now and being who we want to be and and not get obsessed with this trip to paris. you know?

Speaker 1:  yeah. yes. exactly. no. and it's a very good thing good good question. and, well, one thing is that you can be in touch with your future self. and, you know, like, this is a conversation you actually can have with your own inner wisdom. in other words, your future self. because this is, like, the best version of you, the the wisest person that you've got at your on your at your fingertips. right? and that person would say, relax. it's coming. and they would say, enjoy your life while, you know, while you're doing what you're doing, and you are building towards that. and, you know, trust it and relax into it. i don't want you to hurry up and get here. i want you to enjoy the process that's needed in order to become this. right? and so they wouldn't want you to wish your life away. they want you to enjoy the journey and enjoy the knowing that that is what's coming.

Speaker 0:  mhmm.

Speaker 1:  and, and again, you know, if you're chasing, if you're feeling resentful and impatient, any of those things, right, you're now not aligned to how future self does life. mhmm. yeah. so

Speaker 0:  i see my future self or or, like, before we did this session, i i was more tuning into my wise woman. right. like, see myself on the bike and, you know, white hair flowing in the the wind and getting my groceries in this little basket in in front of me. and so yeah. just like like you said, there's no rush, you know, in in that in that picture. right. and at the same time, i'm like, well, why am i not? you know, we we had bikes, but, where we live in lausanne, it's very up and down. and so i never used it, and so we transformed them into ebikes. and now every time i take this ebike, i'm like, i'm already my future self.

Speaker 1:  exactly. yeah. yeah. it's a really good question to ask. in what ways am i already my future self?

Speaker 0:  right.

Speaker 1:  so back to that question about the what we see and what we feel, it's the what comes in terms of the actual manifestations. yeah. i haven't been in done that talk in paris yet. i will. right. right? but the the question is much more, how much am i being future self now? right? and, and if i'm energetically aligned to her, then i don't need that. right? that that that's just a sort of byproduct. those things are the byproducts. right? right. if you think about it, what are we wanting in life? we're not really wanting the things because we're we're just conflating what we think the things are going to do and how they're gonna make us feel.

Speaker 0:  love us. yeah.

Speaker 1:  so we we're actually wanting the feeling. mhmm. yeah. so that's what we can that we have some power over that right now. right? so we can have the feeling of that. yes. the manifestations aren't there. and if if that if if that's making us feel like we're lacking in some way, then we can ask ask ourselves, so what am i needing right now?

Speaker 0:  mhmm.

Speaker 1:  you know, that that isn't about the thing. it's about the the the the way it makes me feel. can i can i bring that to myself that way that it makes me feel right now? the answer is yes. with a bit of, you know, looking around and checking in with yourself, you'll be able to find a way of having that experience right now.

Speaker 0:  yeah. another thing that came up, in our little visualisation was the hippie picture. right? and i

Speaker 1:  think i was

Speaker 0:  mentioning barefoot. and so i'm like, well, i just gotta walk more often barefoot. right? like, that's that's the easy thing. and, yes, it creates a very different feeling than walking with shoes on. so

Speaker 1:  yeah. exactly. absolutely. so there's all sorts of things. i mean, people can go on to my website and and download a a thing about how to align to your future self. but it is you can do it in these little things. you know? like, what's their, you know, are you doing the things that they're doing that that you could absolutely do now? like you say, like the biking and the, you know, might even be just the the kind of tea that you have or, you know, like, are you are you being as abundant with yourself as they are being abundant with themselves? you know? like, in doing that in a in a, you know, obviously, in a way that works, but it's the feelings of it. so, yeah. like, if they're if they have a real hippie element that they're really enjoying,

Speaker 0:  how can

Speaker 1:  you have that right now? right? so, yeah. i love what you're doing. brilliant.

Speaker 0:  yeah. so the reason i brought it into the business like we're human book, is also because i think it's such a powerful tool to get us out of this stuckness and destruction that we are in right now

Speaker 1:  mhmm.

Speaker 0:  and really use it as a tool to reimagine completely, like, something that we feel right now is completely impossible that we could ever have or ever live in abundance. and i'm not talking becoming millionaires or anything, but just feeling peaceful inside and feeling abundant. right? yeah. and so i think it's a really powerful tool to, yeah, reimagine our our life and work differently.

Speaker 1:  yeah.

Speaker 0:  have you is is that a topic that comes up in your, in your with your clients?

Speaker 1:  well, yes. i mean, i i'm actually the chair of the association of sustainability practitioners. and it's it's kind of, i mean, they're a very amazing hopeful organization who are looking, you know, really future sensing and in, as i say, in really hopeful ways. but, yeah, the that exercise with them has, i think, shifted things, subtly as we've gone along is that we have to. we have to tune into that version of life and for and the planet. because if we don't, we're gonna collapse. we're gonna get overwhelmed and we become we lose our agency, and we can't do anything about it. mhmm. so another metaphor i use is one of cells in the body. so if you have a body, so that's the planet, and we are the cells, there may be disease in parts of the body, but it doesn't help if all the cells in the body kind of rush towards the disease and get infected themselves. mhmm. we have to have pockets where there are healthy cells that can grow from being healthy. and the more healthy cells there are, the more we can help heal the disease. it's the healthy cells that are going to heal. yeah. we can't we can't solve the problems from the energy of the problems. we have to solve the problems from the energy of the solution. so the more healthy cells, human beings, there are in the world, the more we are we can help heal. so that for me is very, very pivotal. it's it's way the way asp, the association, works. and i know we we both, enjoy the idg and the, you know, development goals and what they're up to. and there's so many organizations and there's so many people out there who are doing great things. we need to highlight those people. we need to stop highlighting what's going wrong and we need to start highlighting what's going right. and the more we do that, a bit like my my story about the colleague of my husband's. right? by he he focused on what was right.

Speaker 0:  mhmm.

Speaker 1:  and there's always something to find, even if it's that the person has nice teeth. right? you know, there's there's always something. if you focus on that, that's where the healing starts. right? so that's why it's important.

Speaker 0:  yeah. i love how you compare the micro with the macro because it's it's so true. like yeah. and and that then changes the energy of of us as change makers because, like you say, if we are not healthy as change makers, what kind of can we really create?

Speaker 1:  yeah. so yeah. yeah. then we get into force and and and bitterness and anger, and we lose our agency, and we just join in. you know, there's another i love you might have spotted i love a metaphor, but there's the the metaphor of the well. right? so if somebody's fallen down the well, you're of no help to them just going and joining them in the bottom of the well and going, oh, poor you. right? we we can't that's not that's not helping them get out of the well. we have to stay above and throw them a line from there. but we cannot come down. we have to stay there. we have to be willing to stay healthy. and it's a brave choice to stay hopeful when everybody keeps telling us that you know it's it's hopeless and it's all going to hell in a handbasket. we cannot engage with that because now we're part of the problem.

Speaker 0:  yeah. and that's why i think, you know, just the the word future nowadays, it's such an important word to use in everything. and, you know, of course, especially in your work, but but everybody should, like, make the future part of of their work now because that's what we're working towards, right? any kind of healing, change making, consulting, changing, anything like that should all be future, oriented.

Speaker 1:  yes. yes.

Speaker 0:  it can, you know, it can only be helpful to visualize that future so that you know where you're going towards, what you're going towards.

Speaker 1:  and to know that there is something to go towards. right? that there is yeah.

Speaker 0:  there

Speaker 1:  is hope and that, you know, we otherwise, how can we operate? right? yeah. i don't know if you know dan pink. he did a he did a ted talk on motivation. mhmm. which basically comes down to three things. amp, basically, is the acronym. autonomy, mastery, and purpose.

Speaker 0:  mhmm.

Speaker 1:  so in order for us to really engage with life and do it well, we have to feel a sense of autonomy that we're doing things on our own terms in our own way. we have to feel that we're getting mastery. in other words, we're getting better and better at something, that we're growing. and we have to have a sense of purpose, of a sense of a higher that there's something higher that we're working towards. yeah. and that really resonates with me. i think that's absolutely true. and so that the future self work, well, helps with all of that. because, you know, autonomy, you suddenly see that future self is doing in her or his own way. mhmm. and but it that it's of real service to do it that way. not to become a clone of somebody else. right? that they're the fact that they're relaxing into their own oak tree ness means that they they are being the greatest version of themselves and that is the greatest gift that we can give. right? that's a very generous act. it's always good to feel like we're getting better and better at something. and future self gives you that sense of, oh, yeah. there's some there is a gap, but that's fun to to, you know, to work on closing that gap. and there's something much bigger at work that my future self is really engaged with, and i i can really get behind that.

Speaker 0:  it's beautiful.

Speaker 1:  mhmm.

Speaker 0:  how would you say, like, people, can start on their own, you know, kind of just yeah. you i think you said having a conversation with your future self. would that be the step, or how would they get started?

Speaker 1:  well, it's interesting. yes. i think if you, if you feel fairly close to your future self, like, you can tell that you do have that kind of inner knowing that there is more

Speaker 0:  mhmm.

Speaker 1:  and you may have even had those kind of waking dreams that i've had, then yes, absolutely get in touch with that person and have a conversation with them on per on paper. you can lie down and and see if you can start interacting with that person. if you're feeling a little bit more confused and lost, it helps to be guided, i have to say. i think it's, sometimes it's just a difficult thing for us to sort of go towards by ourselves if we're feeling a little bit, you know, more out of sorts. right? because it's about the more we're kind of energetically aligned with our future selves, the more we're gonna see them and feel them. so i think sometimes it does require somebody to help you get into that energetic space. right? but, you know, if you do have a sense, then absolutely you can, do that for yourself.

Speaker 0:  i i think maybe, like, what i used to do a few years back is a recorded meditation that you can find on insight timer or calm or one of the these apps. yeah. yeah. the one i used was something about, you know, future wise woman or something like that. so that already kinda gets you familiar with the with the topic

Speaker 1:  yes.

Speaker 0:  and makes it then once you do have a guided, visualization, it makes it less uncomfortable.

Speaker 1:  yes. exactly. you know what you're doing. that. i i have one too that i can give you the link for

Speaker 0:  as well. yes. yeah. please do.

Speaker 1:  yeah. yeah.

Speaker 0:  yeah. i think you have a, yeah, an ebook as well. so please do tell tell the listeners where they can find you, your website, and all of that.

Speaker 1:  yeah. yeah. so they, my website is, futureselfnow.co.uk. and so you can get in touch with me through there. and as i say, there are some, tips and, sort of, it says a workbook for aligning to your future self in there that you can download. and, i have a book, what i call the future self now playbook is on amazon. so you can if you just look up future self now and make sure you say playbook at the end of it because there's another book that comes up quite often. but the future self now playbook, then you that is just packed with, like, so many tools for aligning to your future self. so, yeah. that that's and it's very colorful and full of photos and just a as i say, i called it a playbook for that reason because nice. you know, we have to we have to have a lighthearted approach to life. right?

Speaker 0:  it's that creative part, i guess, from your earlier years in in business. yeah. yeah.

Speaker 1:  yeah.

Speaker 0:  and it's true that i feel like if you wanna play with the future, you can't do it from the rational mind. right? you have to go into the other side of the brain. and so i'm sure it helps to have color and images and all of that. yes.

Speaker 1:  yeah. yeah. yeah. yeah. it's it's, you know, as soon as we get into that it's all about kind of, it's all serious and we gotta heal and, you know, there's some words that are quite triggering.

Speaker 0:  mhmm.

Speaker 1:  and, you can see the energy that that stirs up. and so, like, now we're not in the energy of the solution. so we this is why i'm highlighting.

Speaker 0:  well, i would assume also anything that is, you know, the more like i said in the beginning, the traditional goal setting. so if it's results and achievements and and well, that's all the rational mind. right? right. exactly. figure it out. and

Speaker 1:  yeah. and and, you know, that is why we go to the future, by the way. you know, like, who you are is who you are is who you are. you've always been this way. we could argue you were you were it before you were born and that you'll be it after you die. we don't, you know, like, because it's energy after all. right? right. so who you are is who you are. the only reason we go to future self the only reason we go to the future is because it's the only place that our brains let us suspend disbelief to your point. right? mhmm. and, and and really get in touch with that part of you. we could get back in touch with that part of you when you were five and you were full of the joys of spring and, you know, just loving life.

Speaker 0:  that's inner child work. right?

Speaker 1:  that's you. right? that's still you. and and and i'm sure there's now times now when you're on top of a hill and you're just in wonder, right? that's the same thing. it's just harder in the past and in the now to do that with all the busyness and the stuff that's been before. so we use the future only because it's the place we can have the cleanest, clearest view. so, you know, it's not about chasing, as you so rightly put it, and it's not about trying to get there. it's about who we're being now. we're just highlighting much more who we already are.

Speaker 0:  it's brilliant. so grateful for your work and

Speaker 1:  oh, thank you.

Speaker 0:  like i said, i i'm sure it it it was important fifteen years ago, but right now i cannot highlight how important it is. so

Speaker 1:  yeah. it definitely feels it. yeah.

Speaker 0:  lots of work to do, especially with those organisations. right? like mhmm. yeah.

Speaker 1:  yeah. yeah. yeah. because organisations can get in touch with their their values and their essence too. right? and it's a it's an energetic thing. and it's it's a new paradigm, but i think, you know, we'll get there with those organizations starting.

Speaker 0:  yeah. we're we're especially with are waking up. yeah.

Speaker 1:  yeah. exactly. and you're very much part of that impulse, so it's brilliant.

Speaker 0:  thank you. i can't wait to see you in person in stockholm in october.

Speaker 1:  i'm looking forward to it.

Speaker 0:  until then, thanks so much for being on the show, theresa.

Speaker 1:  thank you so much for having me.

Speaker 4:  i hope you got some great value and inspiration from listening to this episode and start thinking about your future self. you can find out more about theresa and her work at futureselfnow.c0.uk. and you'll find her future self now playbook on that same website and also other resources, or you can also find the playbook on amazon. if you are on insight timer, look for my name there. i have a whole bunch of free meditations, and one of them is a guided meditation around this visualization of your future self. after the episode, we turned the mic and theresa asked me three questions about my experience with future self visualization. and i'm sharing that video and my thoughts on my business and life meanderings newsletter on substack. so if you are not following me there yet, look me up. i am not promising to be very regular. i really, take this, word of meanderings very seriously. so i just wanna go with the flow and and, yeah, write when i feel like it. and i thought this idea of turning the mic while recording a podcast would be a really effortless thing of getting my thoughts out into, you know, the ether and out on, substack, which is very new for me. right? i i haven't been there. so look me up, and i'd love to share my meanderings with you there. and as always, if you are looking for others who think like you, then why not join us in the humane marketing circle? it's our community, and we do a lot of assumption busting and cocreating this new future, this new world of doing business like we're human and marketing like we're human. you can find out more at humane.marketing/circle. you find the show notes of this episode at humane.marketing/hm21four. and on this beautiful page, you'll also find a series of free offers, the humane business manifesto, as well as my two books, marketing like we're human, selling like we're human, and soon my third book, business like we're human. thank you so much for listening and being part of a generation of marketers who cares for yourself, your clients, and the planet. we are change makers before we are marketers. so go be the change you want to see in the world. speak soon.

Curious if a group program is the right next step for your business? In this new episode on the Humane Marketing podcast, Sarah Santacroce talks with group program expert Kerry Dobson about the power of small, interactive groups.

Together, they explore what truly defines a group program, the unique benefits of intimate settings, the facilitator's role, and the importance of understanding your "why" before getting started. If you're an entrepreneur seeking clarity and a more humane approach to group offerings, this conversation is for you.

In this episode we talked about:

• The definition of a group program and how it compares to other offerings, such as online courses or memberships.
• The distinction between large-scale "guru" group programs (one-to-thousands) and smaller, more intimate groups, and the impact on transformation and participant connection.
• The unique value and magic that happens in smaller, intimate groups, especially regarding participant-to-participant connection and transformation.
• The facilitator's role in group programs and why it can be more powerful to host smaller groups rather than large ones.
• The business and impact considerations of running small versus large group programs, including the challenges and benefits of each model.
• The pitfalls of trying to emulate large-scale group models when starting out, and the importance of building impactful small groups first.
• The significance of understanding your "why" before creating a group program, and the questions to consider before deciding if a group program is right for you.
• A sneak preview of what we'll work on during the Collab Workshop with Kerry on July 2nd. If you'd like to join us go to humane.marketing/workshop

Watch this episode on YouTube

In this episode titled Money Motivators, I'm joined by Leisa Peterson for a deep and nourishing conversation about our relationship with money. We explore the roots of our money story, what truly motivates us, and why healing around money is so essential, especially for heart-centered entrepreneurs.

Leisa shares her own journey from financial advisor to conscious money mentor, the disillusionment with a broken system, and why she turned to fiction to tell the story of transformation in her new book The Money Catalyst.

This episode is an invitation to reflect on your own money motivators and to begin rewriting your story from a place of self-worth, clarity, and courage.

In this episode we talked about:

• 🌱 Leisa Peterson's journey from financial advisor to conscious money mentor—and why she left the traditional finance world.
• 💔 The disillusionment with our broken money system and how hard it is to "unplug from the matrix."
• 📖 Her new book The Money Catalyst—a novel that follows Mirabelle's transformational journey through 8 money catalysts.
• 💡 The connection between self-worth and money—how our inner beliefs shape our financial reality.
• 🎭 Why fiction was the best format to share deeper money insights and how storytelling can heal.
• 🌀 How transformation around money isn't just educational—it's emotional, spiritual, and deeply personal.

 

Hello, friends. I'm coming back to you with a loving nudge and a gentle reminder that if you've been meaning to join our Conversations for Change, support the fundraiser, — this is your moment. 🌿

Before I go into the details, I just want to pause and celebrate what we've already created together. 💚

Every single contribution, every person who said yes to doing business differently — it's been so heartwarming to witness. You are showing that there's real energy behind this humane way of working, and I'm beyond grateful.

I'd love for you to join us too!

We are in the final days, but the fundraiser is still running until June 9th and I would so appreciate your presence, your energy, and yes, your support in helping this new way of doing business emerge .. When you join, you're not only supporting the launch of my new book Business Like We're Human, but you also get:

✨ Access to all 4 live workshops
✨ The eBook and audiobook versions of Business Like We're Human
✨ A replay hub, in case you can't attend live

Join us at: humane.marketing/conversationsforchange

In this episode of The Humane Marketing Show, I'm joined by Jen Freeman to explore how your Human Design centers — both defined and open — reveal your natural marketing superpowers. We unpack what these centers are, how they shape the energy you radiate or absorb, and why knowing them helps you release the pressure to market like someone you're not.

Jen clears up common myths and shows how understanding your centers can gently guide you to choose marketing strategies and business models that feel authentic and easeful.

If you're a heart-centered entrepreneur or Changemaker ready to market from who you truly are, not from hustle or hype, this conversation will inspire and ground you.

Previous Episode with Jen here.

Here's what we discussed in this episode:

• What centers are in Human Design and their origins.
• Defined centers as areas of consistent, radiating energy.
• Open centers as areas where we receive and are influenced by others' energy.
• The importance of knowing your defined and open centers for self-understanding.
• Common misconceptions and the value of open centers for gaining wisdom.
• How understanding your centers can guide decisions and reduce pressure to be someone you're not.
• How your open centers can reveal what you are naturally drawn to offer or "sell" in your business or marketing.
• Using your Human Design to choose marketing strategies and business models that fit your authentic self.

Watch this episode on YouTube

Join our Workshop on June 4th

--

Transcript

 

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Sarah Santacroce: Jen Freeman, welcome back to the humane marketing podcast it's good to hang out with you as always.

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jen freeman: Oh, it's great to be here. Thanks for having me, Sarah.

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Sarah Santacroce: Thank you. You've been on the show before. And we talked about human design. And if people want to go back to that episode, it's episode 194. So humane dot marketing forward. Slash. 194.

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Sarah Santacroce: This way, we take it a bit farther and further and deeper into, you know not so much about the different types, but more about the centers specifically defined and undefined centers. So again, if this is all kind of like complete, weird language to you. It's probably best that you 1st listen to episode 1, 94, so that you understand a little bit of the basics of human design.

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Sarah Santacroce: So, Jen, why don't you explain? For people who are relatively new to human design what the centers are like that we're going to be talking about today.

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jen freeman: So the centers in human design. They're a synthesis of many different systems. So they are. They do reflect the Chakras. They do reflect the Kabbalah tree of life.

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jen freeman: They go all the way down to genetic code and organs. So so when you look at a human design chart, it's a 2D representation of a 3D. Lived experience. And so the the centers themselves probably the simplest way to say it. They're they're portals for one, because where they're when they're open. It's where you're receiving information from the world, and then where they're fixed. It's where you're putting it out. I like to think of it as a radio station. So 101 Sarah

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jen freeman: going out, and that, you know, never ending, would be where your centers are fixed, where your energy is consistent, and you're radiating that energy into your environment where they're open is where you're receiving other people's. You're receiving my 1, 0 1 gin, you know.

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jen freeman: into yours. So so being with that constant interplay

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jen freeman: that's always happening. But this is why it's so important to know your centers, which one are defined because that's consistent. That's you. That's your radio station and which ones are open that are receiving because you're being conditioned there, which we'll talk more about. I'm sure.

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Sarah Santacroce: I'm just gonna hold up for people who are watching on Youtube. I'm holding up this. Yeah, this, this chart, that kind of shows the the centers. So you mentioned the Chakras? So yes, there's the Chakras, but there's a few more right. What? What's in addition to the Chakra.

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jen freeman: Because that's part of like the Kabbalah tree of life. For example, if people are familiar with what that looks like, so it's a similar recognition that there are these portals of energy that are coming through us and to us.

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jen freeman: Right? So. And that's where the G center is unique. And that's that heart you just showed them.

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Sarah Santacroce: In the center.

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jen freeman: That that is what's called the magnetic monopole. And it's basically what creates the illusion of a separate self

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jen freeman: and sets direction so that there's the apparent sense of sereness

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jen freeman: right? Right? So and and again, human design is very deep. So I'm very aware with your listeners that probably every sentence we say could create more questions in their mind. And I just want them to know you're right on track. This is the nature of this. It's a very deep subject, a life, a lifelong inquiry. Really, you know, Sarah and I both have

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jen freeman: caught the bug. I've had the bug for 23 years. So I think you've had it

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jen freeman: 10, maybe. Yeah, yeah.

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Sarah Santacroce: Yeah, but not as deep as you, you know.

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jen freeman: Yeah, yeah, so, but just just knowing that if it does raise questions, it's okay, it's great. Actually, it'll take you into wonderful places. But so we're gonna both do our best to keep it as simple, so you can apply it right away as possible.

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Sarah Santacroce: So you talked a little bit already about centers, one of them being the ones where

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Sarah Santacroce: you know who you are and the other ones being the ones where you receive energy. So the open centers are the ones where you receive other people's message and energy and the defined, or the would you call them closed centers? The defined centers are the ones where you

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Sarah Santacroce: you know you can tap into, because that's where you know who you are. Is that correct?

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jen freeman: Yeah.

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jen freeman: yes. So so something called the neutrino stream, which is an infinitesimally small particle of mass traveling just under the speed of light. So the defined centers. So basically, we are all being inundated with these tiny, tiny particles all the time, millions of them per second.

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jen freeman: So what? Where the centers are defined. It's where you have consistent conditioning by the planets of neutrinos. Okay? So it's you're still being conditioned. But it's all the time consistent. Your entire life. That's what's happening.

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jen freeman: Whereas where it's white is where you're both being conditioned by planets, by people, by animals, by plants, by like, it's like, it's it's really the felt sense of it

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jen freeman: is that basically, it's like the the where the centers are fixed. It's like the furniture. You never really think about it. You know, it's just there. It's consistent for you all the time, whereas where they're open, it's much more like the television

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jen freeman: like flashy images, colors, lights, and our attention is very naturally drawn to the TV over the furniture, you know, unless you're a very, I guess.

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jen freeman: meditative person who likes to stare at your couch? That most of us are going to be drawn to those open centers. So

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jen freeman: so, part of how we learn about ourselves is, we see our defined centers.

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jen freeman: So let's say that, I have a defined emotional center which is the center of authority. It means that I need at least 24 h to make decisions. It means my emotions move on a wave

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jen freeman: meaning. I have a lot of feelings. They're data points.

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jen freeman: So if I don't understand that about myself.

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jen freeman: and I don't understand that someone with an open emotional center would be experiencing my emotions. They'd be. I would be. I would be conditioning them with my

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jen freeman: promotion.

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Sarah Santacroce: So I actually have an undefined solar plexus.

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jen freeman: So so that would be where my emotions

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jen freeman: you would be feeling them. And this is so. Wherever you're open.

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jen freeman: you will be feeling somewhat the conditioning twice as big. Basically, so often we think we're the opposite of what we are. So like, someone with an open emotional center can feel like, oh, I'm so emotional!

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jen freeman: But really they're feeling all of the emotions around them.

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jen freeman: Right, and it doesn't mean that they don't have their own. But it's it's not the same thing. It's it's a much cooler experience than the emotions are very hot. So if you have it fixed, you just naturally have a lot of heat going through your system.

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jen freeman: So so the essence of this. And again, Noah is always with you and design. The challenge is to

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jen freeman: essentialize it for people to apply is that if you look at your chart. You get a reading, you start to understand.

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jen freeman: You have incredible. You're incredibly empowered to understand who you are in any environment, how you influence people, how you affect them, and also how you're influenced and affected.

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jen freeman: It changes everything, everything

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jen freeman: so. And that's something just a very quick, anecdotal evidence. I have a totally open heart ego will center.

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jen freeman: So part of what that means is that I really need to do things at the right time. I'm basically

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jen freeman: it's not. I'm not here to to will things right? Where if somebody, 30% of the population has that fixed, they are, it's healthy for their heart, because it's about the heart center, but when it's open it actually hurts your heart to try to will things into being.

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Sarah Santacroce: Hmm.

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jen freeman: And so I was in the financial industry years ago, which was a hundred percent commission. I was in this in the States, in the mortgage business in California, and a very, very competitive market with the broker's license, which is like

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jen freeman: and it my God! It was so painful! It was so painful, and I I finally used this tool to understand it was

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jen freeman: I was totally in the wrong place.

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Sarah Santacroce: Right? Yeah, yeah, that's exactly how understanding who we are and how we're wired helps us. Then, you know, choose the the right career path, but also the right business plan and the right business module and and marketing tools, etc, etc. Yeah,

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Sarah Santacroce: So would you say that, like, I think there's some kind of misconception, maybe, about open centers, like people think they're kind of

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Sarah Santacroce: scared about open centers. Maybe. Because yeah. Tell us, tell us why, what's the fear behind these open centers?

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jen freeman: Yeah, so so the thing about the open centers, is it? Well, if we basically just go with it, all human beings seem to tend to want to be in control.

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Sarah Santacroce: And so the open centers are where they are not in control.

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Sarah Santacroce: Right?

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jen freeman: By definition. It's like they're not in control. Right? It's like, this is where, if different influences, different information. But the positive side of this is. It's where you're you're here to be wise in those centers. It's like you're constantly having wine tasting of all these different possibilities. So

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jen freeman: when you are defined. You. You're just it. You're not actually wise about it. You just are. It.

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Sarah Santacroce: Right.

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jen freeman: But where you're open is where you get to taste all these different people's fields and energies. And so like again going back to the open heart example. So I'm here to be wise about what is truly a value.

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jen freeman: and that is a very big difference versus trying to prove I am valuable.

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jen freeman: which is where the people have it fixed, are trying to prove that they're valuable. And again, it's correct for them, right? They're supposed to get out there and be like woo, you know, especially in the States. We're so very sales oriented. So you know they they succeed very well in those environments.

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jen freeman: But if you don't.

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jen freeman: if you understand so like, even right now, sitting with you, I feel completely grounded and confident that what we're talking about has great wisdom and great application.

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jen freeman: but it has nothing to do with me.

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jen freeman: It's I'm I'm just. I'm just expressing what I've taste, tested and learned, and then I that ideally, I want them to go apply it

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jen freeman: right.

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Sarah Santacroce: Hmm.

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jen freeman: I've tasted. Yeah, go ahead.

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Sarah Santacroce: Yeah, yeah, this is good. So I have this

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Sarah Santacroce: spreadsheet in front of me, where

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Sarah Santacroce: I basically looked at my undefined centers.

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Sarah Santacroce: And then I

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Sarah Santacroce: given your like, we we did a class together that you taught and given that information. I basically sat down and said, Here's what I'm selling.

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Sarah Santacroce: because it's placed in the undefined centers. Right? So, for example, I have an undefined heart and ego. And so what I'm selling is worthiness

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Sarah Santacroce: or belonging to community or adaptation in times of shock

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Sarah Santacroce: or ethics. So these kind of things.

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Sarah Santacroce: because that's what I'm constantly learning because of my undefined heart and ego. That's exactly what I'm here to, you know, give and share and sell.

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Sarah Santacroce: So that's would you say, that's an applied example of of how we can?

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Sarah Santacroce: Yeah, tap into these open centers.

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jen freeman: Yes, and really harness their power.

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jen freeman: It's like, in a way, realizing what, Major, you're in in university. You're like, oh, biologist, right? This whole time. I was trying to, you know, be a Wall Street, and now you know or do business analysis. But I'm actually meant to be over here, and the sense of relief, the sense of oh, it all makes sense and the sense of not putting pressure on yourself anymore. To be something that you're not

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jen freeman: is so big, so like I have a chart of an entrepreneur. As an example.

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jen freeman: so much of my design. I'm designed to get out there do stuff.

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jen freeman: but I know I know that's my chart. I know that's my design. But I'm I'm here. So I have a lot of energy, basically. And I have the gate of power connected to my throat, so I know, when I speak that it will be heard

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jen freeman: right one way or the other. You know I can't say if they're gonna like what they're hearing, but what it's gonna be heard.

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jen freeman: whereas if someone does not have a fixed throat center.

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jen freeman: then what that means is, they don't have consistent access to their voice

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jen freeman: being heard, so they often will have lots of stories like self-talk stories right about oh, people don't love me, or they don't like me, or they're not listening to me, but really on a mechanics level, they just don't have a fixed

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jen freeman: throat. So in that case they could learn. If they have something important to communicate, maybe write an email, write a letter

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jen freeman: that written communication could be received much better than spoken.

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Sarah Santacroce: Right, yeah.

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jen freeman: Sometimes people with open voices are so wise about the nature of speech that they become like incredible speakers. So it's it. But it depends on how how they're what they're telling themselves about it, right? Like, oh, no one listens.

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jen freeman: It's it's really it's so. It's so literal and physical and mechanical. That's the other thing. It's

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jen freeman: yeah. The throat is a big, big topic, a big topic.

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Sarah Santacroce: And it's a big topic in marketing as well, because you know the throat is your voice, and how you are going to be heard, and so, understanding

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Sarah Santacroce: what your role is in this lifetime, and how you're supposed to be sharing that voice. Well, that's that's kind of a big deal right. And if you're forcing yourself to do one thing like you know, speaking on stage. But then you find out after a reading. Well, that's not exactly what's going to be easy for you. It's still doable, probably, but it's not going to be easy for you.

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jen freeman: Exactly well, and and to your point, I'm I'm in the process like we chatted about it.

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jen freeman: This in inspiration came to me. I mean, it's I'm workshopping. But I'm my current note. Name is the current current Newsletter. So I have the. My. One of my main gates is the basically the now

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jen freeman: I'm literally the voice of the now. So this is part of me using my voice of like, I'm just so aware of the now. And you know I have a background with astrology and cosmologies, and and I've very drawn to create a newsletter

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jen freeman: to help people in real time

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jen freeman: be with, especially as things are changing so radically that there's an underlying support that they can lean into the quality of time. There's a consistency in the quality of time.

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jen freeman: and it's straight up. It's it's part of me being like I am the voice of the now, that's all I ever talk about to anyone all the time. Right.

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Sarah Santacroce: Yeah.

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jen freeman: So it's cool, because I just feel like, all right, just try it. You've been doing it for years, anyway. Why not just do it, and so it gives it so I feel a sense of confidence.

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Sarah Santacroce: It gives you these insights. Right? The.

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jen freeman: It really does.

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Sarah Santacroce: Yes, I want to take another example from from my what I written down. Oh, as you know, I have a undefined head.

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Sarah Santacroce: and so a big thing of what I'm selling is inspiration. Right? Is change, inspiration to do things differently. So yeah, understanding that. And just saying.

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Sarah Santacroce: because people kind of wonder sometimes, you know, family members like, what are you doing like? You're writing books like, how does that make any money? Or I'm like, well, that's that's my role in this lifetime is to inspire and bring about change and talk about change. And so just.

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Sarah Santacroce: And it's not always easy to accept that either. To say, you know, is this like what I'm doing like? Shouldn't I be going back to, you know, selling Linkedin profile reviews and things like that? But I was not happy in that role, right? And I'm also a 5 1, as you know. And so it's all about.

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Sarah Santacroce: you know, spreading the message to a large audience. And so understanding that and going, okay, so yeah, I'll just accept that role. And this is what I do is, yeah, it's kind of like this big relief and big understanding as well.

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jen freeman: Oh, that's so beautiful. And and just I wanna point out to your listeners that part of what Sarah's talking about right now is that over the years we've known each other. Is that so? Being a 5, 1 means part of her role is one to many. She's here to amplify messages to larger groups of people, where, when she was selling the Linkedin profile that was one to one essentially.

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Sarah Santacroce: Right, yeah.

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jen freeman: And so it was not the right

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jen freeman: use where you can feel, and it just is off. It's like you're wearing like shoes a size too small, with a pebble in it. You know it just feels wrong. So it's in. And that's the thing. Also, like Sarah just expressed that accepting your design does not mean

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jen freeman: oh, no, I guess I just have to like

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jen freeman: oh, it's right. It's not like you're settling like you're like, oh, I had these dreams, and then, you know, and now I'm just going to settle for my design. It's like No, no, your design. The more you align with it, then totally unexpected synchronicities and possibilities open up things you could never have imagined.

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Sarah Santacroce: It's.

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jen freeman: And that's part of the mystery of all of this, you know.

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jen freeman: and as Sarah knows, I have a 20 plus years of Qigong background which is working with Chi for those who don't know it, working with energy. And this just completely maps to Qigong as well. You have to know your piece of the puzzle, as my teacher would say. If you know your piece of the puzzle.

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jen freeman: then you can fall into the hole effortlessly.

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jen freeman: But if you're fighting your piece of the puzzle, and you're and you're like struggling to be something else. You can't actually connect into all the resources clients. It's it's it's it's so paradoxical, but it's like the more you can accept the limitation, the more you can thrive.

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Sarah Santacroce: Hmm, yeah, it's beautiful. There's there's another thing that I wrote down here is that I'm selling to twos.

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Sarah Santacroce: So.

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jen freeman: Yeah.

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Sarah Santacroce: That.

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Sarah Santacroce: How does that have to do? What does that have to do with the with the centers? Or is that something else? I can't remember how we got to that.

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jen freeman: Yeah, yeah, me, neither. Actually, the lines that's in lines and profile stuff. And that's styles of learning. That's so. It's not. It's not actually, it's not the centers. It's.

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Sarah Santacroce: That's about the centers. Okay.

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jen freeman: Sounded like.

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Sarah Santacroce: Action from the centers. Okay.

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jen freeman: Yeah, it's more like a well

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jen freeman: to be just for those whose minds might be like, huh? So there's Gates, and those gates are fixed in a hexagram from the I Ching. The I Ching has 6 lines, so so part of what Sarah is saying is that like? So let's say she has 53, and 54 is her son and earth right? So if it's 0 point 2, it means the second line of the Hexagram. So it's incredibly precise and specific

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jen freeman: and very helpful. But but in the twos just also complete. They're they are projecting outward. But they don't actually understand. Other people can see them. They're kind of very mysterious, the twos, you know. And so in a lot of ways, Sarah, with the 5 of like she's holding up the flag of like, Hey, I've got answers over here.

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jen freeman: Opportunities to be like.

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jen freeman: can someone actually help me, you know, and of course many of us will be going towards the 5, but also 2 and 5

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jen freeman: are related in the lower Hexagram and the upper hexagram. It goes 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, so 2 and 5 are are both projected on as well.

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Sarah Santacroce: Hmm, so.

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jen freeman: So. So there's a deep relationship between the fives and the twos.

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Sarah Santacroce: So okay, let's bring it back to the the centers. What? What?

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Sarah Santacroce: you know? What else can you tell us about these centers? I think they like a

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Sarah Santacroce: I feel like they come with a lot of vulnerability and and conditioning, as you have mentioned before. Right? So there's a big

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Sarah Santacroce: opportunity for healing, I guess.

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jen freeman: Such a big opportunity. And so and this is where, understanding that we are all conditioned. It's the nature of being a human being that from the moment we're born we're being conditioned. We call it culture. We call it family, right? So no one gets out of conditioning. So this is not

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jen freeman: this, is it? This is part of being human being. So then, from that place you can then go. Okay. How do I be wise about my conditioning. So I I have a totally open Asna of the thinking mind.

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jen freeman: And so and again, this is never ending. You're constantly refining this. It's not like you learn it once, and then you move on. It's like it's constant. So I've been in this past couple of months, and a very deep understanding of how deeply my mind is stimulated.

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jen freeman: and how important it is for me to be very aware and careful of what I put into my mind, especially as we're in all of these changes all over the world, right? As we're in this great moment of emergency emergence. There's a lot of people pouring a lot of fear and panic into the field where it's not good for my mind at all. Not that it's good for any mind, right, but if you have a fixed mind. It's not going to hit you the same. So I had to have a really deep process of being with.

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jen freeman: Who am I gonna look to for information. How am I gonna interact, you know, especially being in the States right enough, said the States. Quite a place right now. So and it was very pivotal to me to be like. Look, your mind is incredibly sensitive.

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jen freeman: You don't help anyone or anything by flooding your mind with all of this toxicity.

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jen freeman: I'm not designed for it, you know, someone with a fixed mind

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jen freeman: in a lot of ways. They're they're meant to be out there like hitting people with their thoughts. Basically, it's like they can like, do this.

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Sarah Santacroce: They're the ones invading you with their stories. Right?

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jen freeman: You know. And so and that's something where I've been. I really had to come to peace with and really, deeply be like, okay, if I feel drawn, I will go. Listen to a person, you know an article, a podcast. But other than that, I'm going to trust spirits going to bring me what I need to know, to play my part hopefully for the the benefit of all beings. Right? The sense of but it's part of that.

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jen freeman: I got to be real about the vulnerability, and both my parents had fixed minds so also to bring in again family. So in this journey of learning, how deeply their minds

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jen freeman: impacted me.

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jen freeman: So really, bit by bit, over time, unpacking like, Oh, wait! That's Mom's fears. Oh, that's oh, wait! That's how Dad approaches it right, and they're both fives.

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jen freeman: So they have a very different gig. I'm a i'm a 1 3. So I'm much more my own test tube. I get to come out and share my research right. But I got conditioned to think I was supposed to be

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jen freeman: something else, and that was very painful. So again, the more you can recognize your conditioning. And so the great place for your listeners to start very simply, I mean, complexly, but simply. Look at your family origin.

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jen freeman: What was held as values? Right? Was it money? Was it education? Was it family? Were they very open-minded and international? Were they very closed-minded like like, and not from a judgment place. Just true observation.

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jen freeman: and then look at your own centers. Look, where are you? Open, where were you being conditioned? If you have the capacity, you can run free charts all over the place. You could look at your mom and dad's chart if you knew the birth info.

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jen freeman: and you can. Just that is profound, profound.

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Sarah Santacroce: Hmm, hmm.

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jen freeman: So that's a great place to start right. And then, if we want to go straight to marketing business application.

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jen freeman: look at your business model. Look at your design right? And and so let's again take me because I know my design. When I was in 100 commission, financial huge egos everywhere. It was not my strength at all. But once I let go. I've had this coaching and consulting business for 12 years.

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jen freeman: I'm just being me bringing forward my research. That's all about spirit embodiment. These are my gates. How do you bring spirit into matter? How do you truly be aligned with the now in a powerful way and speak powerfully.

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jen freeman: so I just let go into it, and I'm very happy.

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Sarah Santacroce: Happy.

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jen freeman: Don't feel like I'm swimming upstream. People just find me.

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jen freeman: I just it's great. So that's what I would love for them to hear as well is just. If you feel like you're stuck, or suffering, or difficult man, there is a way, and it's not far or hard. It's actually right in front of you and these centers.

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Sarah Santacroce: Yeah. And what I, what I like about this is that we're not trying to.

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Sarah Santacroce: you know, use human design as some kind of tactic that we're now going to

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Sarah Santacroce: go into psycho mode, and, you know, try to get because we don't have access to our clients. Human design, usually, at least not our prospects. Human design. It's all about finding out more who you are.

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jen freeman: Yes.

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Sarah Santacroce: Using that to your advantage, and being more authentic, being the real, you right that that's what this is all about, and and for people listening. I think they probably understand by now that this is complex, you know, like this is very complex. There's all these different layers.

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Sarah Santacroce: And yeah, if if you're interested in finding out more and going a bit deeper. Well, Jen is coming back to us to the Humane marketing circle to do another workshop on June 4, th Jen, tell us a little bit what we're going to be doing on June 4.th

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jen freeman: Great. So one of my favorite things to do with coaching groups, such as Sarah's, is that we'll have an introduction looking at the main thing. But then we're going to have 5 people that will have their charts in advance that are essentially on the hot seat. So we get to talk for 5 to 10 min with each person, and look at the application so that you in real time can learn. You can see. And it's just fascinating how different each person is right. And then you hear their stories of how they've been applying it, or what they're doing in their business. And it's

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jen freeman: it's it is so inspiring. Speaking of, you know, inspiration right? So hopefully, you would leave that workshop both with an idea of how your own charts working, looking at like, where? Where are the strengths like? Where? Where? You're already playing to your strengths? And so you're like great. Just more of that, and be able to go. Oh, right, I'm trying to do this over here, you know. Maybe I should not do that. And so I think you we learn so much from each other

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jen freeman: to see multiple people, especially in this back to back way.

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jen freeman: It's like magic. It really is like magic.

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Sarah Santacroce: Exactly. Even if your chart doesn't get picked. It's like, Oh, wow! I have this one, too. So

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Sarah Santacroce: yeah, no wonder

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Sarah Santacroce: I'm doing this. And I like this marketing tactic. Or no wonder I don't like that one. So yeah, so much wisdom coming out of that. So I can't wait to. Yeah, to have you talk to us about open and or defined and undefined centers. But for people who can't make it to the workshop, please tell

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Sarah Santacroce: tell listeners where they can find you and your newsletter that you're going to be.

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jen freeman: Yeah, that's right. Yeah. So my website's Jen Freemanco, JENF. REEM, a, n.co. And I offer one of the things is I call them the Decode, your design sessions. And I've actually created my own method includes human design, astrology, numerology, and something called the personality system because I really love Meta context. I love looking at the real big picture and then helping give people a strategy of how to, because to me how to live a happy life.

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jen freeman: It's like really loving, understanding your vehicle understanding like what who you are, what you're here to do. And so so. And I also do ongoing coaching with people based on this kind of stuff as well. And one thing I want to say just to really.

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jen freeman: I really hope from my heart to your heart. Whoever's listening as much as there's complexity, and there is. There is a simplicity here that if you, if you only heard this. Just understand, there's a way that you are

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jen freeman: a radio station that's putting out, and there's a way that you are receiving. If you want to call it Yin and Yang. There's a fundamental dynamic going, and the more you can be curious about that, the more you're going to free yourself up from so much, so just even that alone could take you so far.

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Sarah Santacroce: What I'll never forget from our reading is is where you showed me. You know the push against and the resistance that creates. And yeah, that image keeps coming back. I'm like, don't push, don't push, it's not. It's not going to be easier. So just.

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jen freeman: I'm good. I'm so glad. And I really it's a great joy. This

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jen freeman: this whole thing Sarah and I are talking about, and we both share this as a value, I feel confident in it. We want to see a world that's happier and healthier, where people are more engaged. They're not stuck in their conditioning. They're bringing forward their unique gifts. They're able to. Really.

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jen freeman: it is going to be through business. It's gonna be through how we connect with each other. It's just, and that's part of both our passion. We want people to really know who they are and succeed and thrive everywhere in our lives.

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Sarah Santacroce: Beautiful. So yeah, please join us humane dot marketing forward slash workshop. And it's taking place on June 4.th

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Sarah Santacroce: Thanks so much for doing this little preview for our listeners here on the podcast and I can't wait to see you. Thanks, Jen.

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jen freeman: I look forward to it.

 

In this heartfelt solo episode, Sarah Santacroce invites you into Conversations for Change—a series of meaningful gatherings designed to help us unlearn the hustle, reimagine business with more humanity, and gently recalibrate our own path.

You'll hear about the fundraiser supporting the launch of her new book Business Like We're Human and how you can join these transformative conversations that blend reflection, connection, and action.

If you're ready to do business in a way that feels aligned, spacious, and true to who you are, this invitation is for you.

Each workshop explores one part of the book's journey:

• Wake Up: Let's shine a light on outdated systems and inherited beliefs around work and worth.
• Reimagine: We'll dream boldly about what a truly humane business might look like.
• Recalibrate: We'll ground those dreams into practical shifts—in mindset, systems, and relationships.
• Integrate: Finally, we'll reflect on how to sustain those shifts with grace and spaciousness.

Support the launch here

--

 

Speaker 0:  hello, friends. today, i'm coming with a bit of a special episode, a bit of a self serving episode. i hope throughout the months and years, i, always give enough value so that you feel like, yeah, you love listening to this show and, learn a lot from our conversations with, my guests. but today, i'm coming here and sharing about two offerings that are part of my life's work to guide us towards a more humane way to do marketing and business. you've probably heard me talk about this third book. i've been hinting at it for a long time now that i've been quietly working on. it's called business like we're human. and, yeah. this book, it's close to my heart. it's about business. yes. but really, it's about us. it's about remembering our own humanity in the hustle and about finding inner peace so that we can create outer change. in my first two books, marketing like we're human and selling like we're human, i wrote about being gentle and more humane towards our clients. and this third one, it turns the mirror gently towards ourselves. we're really in a moment of reckoning. so many of us are questioning the rules we were taught about business. maybe you too are tired of the constant striving, the 6 figure hype, the pressure to scale at all costs. i know that i am. and that's why this book follows a different rhythm, a rhythm that aligns more with nature than with spreadsheets. and the framework i've used in this book is inspired by the peace symbol, and the journey unfolds in four stages. the first one is called wake up. the second one is reimagine. the third one is recalibrate. and the final one is integrate. and i truly believe this book needs to be experienced, not just read. i have received a a few books in recent times, business books, where i just noticed how i don't have the mental energy to sit there and read the whole book by myself. and i also feel like what we're doing in the humane marketing community is so valuable to sit together and find solutions that work for each of us and not just, you know, feel like we have to apply exactly what we're being taught. so this is why i'm launching this book through a series of facilitated gatherings that i'm calling conversations for change. so they are not lectures. yes. i'm going to bring some ideas from the book. but then the idea is really to go into breakout rooms and and talk about these things, talk about the unlearning maybe that we have to do from the toxic business advice, and then reimagine together what this new way of doing business that fits into our lives rather than having to fit our lives around our business could look like. so they are conversations, meaningful conversations, hopefully, gentle spaces for reflection, insight, and connection. and i have run these workshops before as a beta inside the humane marketing circle, and, yeah, the experience was incredibly moving. i'm gonna read you two testimonials. monica said, the workshops with sarah made me feel that i can offer myself permission to step outside the box and run a business from a space of wild creativity and roaring courage. i feel that anything is possible. and stephanie shared, these workshops helped me see that a truly successful business is one that is not only empathic to clients, but also creates space for me to be human, take care of myself, and connect with the world around me. i've never felt more certain that these conversations matter. so here's the invitation from one human to another. please join us for the conversations for change. they're running from june 10 to july 1. and this fundraiser that i'm running right now that gives you access to these conversations for change as well as the ebook, business like we're human, and the audiobook version that i already recorded of business like we're human, is running right now. so from may 9 to june 9, you can help us together raise the funds in a crowdfunding activity. and if you go to humane.marketing/conversationsforchange, you will find out all the details. each workshop explores one part of the book's journey. so wake up, we are gonna shine a light on outdated systems and inherited beliefs around work and worth. in reimagine, we'll dream boldly about what a truly humane business might look like for each of us because it's different for each of us. in the third workshop, recalibrate will ground those dreams into practical shifts in mindset, systems, and relationships. and finally, in integrate, the fourth workshop will reflect on how to sustain those shifts with grace and spaciousness. each of these sessions is sixty minutes long. and if you can't attend live or all of them, i totally understand replays will be available in a private hub. so, again, the all the details are at humane.marketing/conversationsforchange. and what you're really doing is helping all of us put this book out there, create this message, and then having conversations around it. and if this message really resonates with you, there's one more way to support. you can become an affiliate and actually help spread the word. and by doing that, uh, you earn $10 for each person who signs up for the conversations. you find the link to sign up as an affiliate at the bottom of the fundraiser page. again, the link is humane.marketing/conversationsforchange. so i look forward to seeing you at least at one of these conversations. it's gonna be special, i feel. i told you i was gonna talk about two offerings. the second offering i wanted to share about is the marketing like we're human program. that's based on my framework of the seven p's of humane marketing. you're already familiar with the seven p's. if you're a regular on this podcast, i mention them all the time. all the conversations here are based on the seven p's of humane marketing. but in the program, we go deep into them and really take the time to define them for our business. and it all starts from who you are, your passion, and your person, as well as your personal power. like, what makes you uniquely you? and then we go into people, product, pricing, promotion, and partnership. so it's really a blend of personal development and pragmatic marketing and business building. it's for entrepreneurs at any stage in business. we have beginning entrepreneurs who come on the market now and just know have this deep knowing that they want to do marketing differently than so many of the examples they see out there. but we also have people with twenty years of experience because they finally want to unlearn all the pushy tactics, and guru advice that i i include myself, we have been learning over the last twenty years and instead want to market from who they are and just bring more integrity and ethical, support into their business and life's work. there are many case studies and testimonials on the program page. so if this is of interest to you, please go have a look at those testimonials. there's videos from from participants because, yes, obviously, it's still marketing. right? and we have such, baggage around these marketing programs that whenever i speak to people, you know, there's still a bit of fear. well, sarah, how is this going to be different from all the programs that i've already attended? so, that's why i'm taking so much time to create these testimonials. so you can find them all at humane.marketing/program. we start on june 5 for another live cohort. the early bird, yes, it's over. it ended april 30. but if you book a call with me through the program page and mention the word podcast, either when we talk or in an email, i'd love to honor your fidelity as a as a listener with a hundred dollar discount. so just mention that word podcast or, you know, you don't have to say it like a robot. it will come up in the conversation. and, yeah, i'd be happy to give you a hundred dollar discount. thank you so much for letting me share about my life's work. i appreciate you as a listener to the humane marketing podcast. take care, and i hope to see you and meet you at the conversations for change.

In this episode of Humane Marketing podcast, I'm joined by Polly Hearsey for a deep and refreshing conversation about radically reinventing business.

Together, we explore how heart-centered entrepreneurs can move beyond fear-based tactics, align with natural rhythms, simplify offerings, and build businesses rooted in service, integrity, and community. If you're ready to treat your business as a living, evolving ecosystem—and break free from outdated rules—you'll find inspiration and real-world guidance here.

This is business reimagined for a more humane world.

Here's what we discussed in this episode:

• Buyers are more skeptical and seek authenticity over hype.
• Clients sense the true intent behind messaging; fear- or scarcity-based offers don't resonate.
• Aligning business with natural and seasonal rhythms creates a more sustainable presence.
• Flexibility is key-evolve offerings in real time based on current needs.
• Simplifying offerings-less but deeper-better meets people's needs.
• Treat business as a living, evolving ecosystem rather than a machine to optimize.
• Root work in service and integrity instead of focusing solely on profit.
• Shift away from endless growth; redefine success through depth and impact.
• Build business around community, connection, and co-creation rather than competition.
• Practice courageous listening to ourselves, clients, and the world-and act on what we hear.
• And most importantly, break all the rules and question all the assumptions you have around business.

Watch this episode on YouTube

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Sarah Santacroce: Hi, Polly, it's good to speak to you again.

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Polly Hearsey: Thanks. You know, I always enjoy coming to talk to you because it's just it's fun to suggest. Go where we go. It's it's all.

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Sarah Santacroce: Yeah.

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Polly Hearsey: Light.

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Polly Hearsey: Thank you.

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Sarah Santacroce: Yeah, it's kind of like one of the things that I feel like. That's my zone of genius. And I know it's yours to.

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Sarah Santacroce: you know, reimagine, rethink differently. And so really, that's what I want to do today. And I was just telling you, I think we can do half of the episode or the beginning of the episode about today, right now and then look into the future. So so yeah, let's let's start there. You know, it's quite the time we live in. And there's

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Sarah Santacroce: there's probably I can sense the fear in entrepreneurship. And yeah, I'm just

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Sarah Santacroce: maybe start us off before we go into taking action, start us off with

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Sarah Santacroce: explaining what you sense energetically. What is going on.

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Polly Hearsey: I think that there's been a big shift in the buyer market

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Polly Hearsey: in terms of what they want and what they're expecting, and the way in which they've been burnt in the past.

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Polly Hearsey: And there's definitely an ability to read through the hype

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Polly Hearsey: right? And the promises. So there's a lot of skepticism, I would say, building.

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Polly Hearsey: So. And you see that when people put ads out say on Facebook or something, and you read the comments and the threads, it'll just be. Get the just people be tearing into them because it's not.

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Sarah Santacroce: It.

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Polly Hearsey: So I'm asking.

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Sarah Santacroce: Feel so fake. It's fake.

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Polly Hearsey: Feels fake and and the promises feel overhyped. You know, state, and particularly in the space that we're in.

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Polly Hearsey: We've got a lot of economic turmoil, and we've got a but

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Polly Hearsey: but even before the sort of like the very recent economic turmoil, what we had was

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Polly Hearsey: a lot of well established businesses, we're sliding.

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Sarah Santacroce: Hmm.

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Polly Hearsey: And they were keeping it under wraps. And I also noticed a lot of people who'd.

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Polly Hearsey: Yeah, maybe 6 years ago had been very present, and then they'd slid off my radar. And then all of a sudden, they've started advertising. That tells me that their business is slipping.

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Sarah Santacroce: Right.

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Polly Hearsey: And that's because the way in which they were approaching it through this sort of psychological, persuasion-based approach.

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Polly Hearsey: It's not working, because once you know that it's happening to you. It doesn't work anymore. So people becoming very wise.

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Polly Hearsey: And but I also think that people want something different now. They don't want the same old

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Polly Hearsey: heavy investments long term, because they don't feel that they have a grasp on where things are going to be in 3 months. So why would I invest in an 8 month, 10 month, 12 month program

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Polly Hearsey: to support myself in whatever area I needed

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Polly Hearsey: when I don't know where I'm going to be. Am I going to be the same person? Am I going to want to do the same sort of things? Because I think people can feel so much bubbling up within them

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Polly Hearsey: that they're not entirely sure how they're going to respond to it.

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Sarah Santacroce: So.

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Polly Hearsey: Big investments don't make an awful lot of sense. And yet some of these very established businesses that's a lot of money to invest with them on something where they're not getting one to one support.

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Sarah Santacroce: Right? It's always group, giant group.

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Polly Hearsey: Giant groups. And it's like, Oh, the value is in the information. No, the value isn't in the information anymore. We have AI proliferating that can turn information into process, but without any nuanced understanding

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Polly Hearsey: of how to deliver it.

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Sarah Santacroce: Hmm.

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Polly Hearsey: So what people are now looking for is more human contact. And yet we've built business structures

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Polly Hearsey: that remove that.

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Sarah Santacroce: Right.

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Polly Hearsey: And so all the expectations about how you automate everything and how you run one to many, and all of that is oh.

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Polly Hearsey: you know I mean, education hasn't lost its value. But information has, I think. And so so it's changing expectations. So I think

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Polly Hearsey: that puts us in a position where we need to be really agile to respond, and creative as well. So we're not just going. Oh, God, I've got to try a little bit harder to make something that's always worked work because it's not going to.

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Sarah Santacroce: Right. You can't just push harder and think it's gonna.

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Polly Hearsey: You see that with the classic old, give me your email address and I'll give you something of value.

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Polly Hearsey: How hard is that to push right now.

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Sarah Santacroce: Right? It's yeah.

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Polly Hearsey: Do not want yet another, because I don't know about you. My inbox is unmanageable. I spent tail end of last year unsubscribing. I spent a whole day just going unsubscribe, unsubscribe, unsubscribe. Stop sending me so much stuff. I don't read it. I do not have the capacity to read it.

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Sarah Santacroce: Yeah.

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Polly Hearsey: But people don't want that.

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Sarah Santacroce: No.

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Polly Hearsey: And there was an interesting thread on substack. I was reading yesterday where people were saying, what I want is the ability to buy a single article

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Polly Hearsey: stop making me subscribe, because there are so many writers here.

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Polly Hearsey: but I want to be able to subscribe to pay for one article, awesome and

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Polly Hearsey: interesting reflection of where we're at.

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Sarah Santacroce: That's kind of what I took away from your newsletter the other day where I was like, oh, I got to have you back on the podcast where you talked about bite. Sized. Right? Yeah. Like, people want small bits, and they want to yes experience. Your work before engaging in any length of program.

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Sarah Santacroce: And and yeah, like, I, just, I'm experimenting this year with instead of a 3 month program. I'm running the marketing like we're human in a 5 week program, and I already see the difference, like people who've gone through it in January. They tell me it was so much easier to decide, because it's 5 weeks, and I can. I can handle that like you said I don't know. 3 months, I'm you know, all over the place in 3 months, and so.

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Polly Hearsey: Yeah.

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Sarah Santacroce: Weeks. Yes, just sound easier. And I think.

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Polly Hearsey: People wanted to know what they're going to do with that, you know, and 3 months down the line it feels like a very long time.

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Sarah Santacroce: Right.

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Polly Hearsey: Not, but it feels like a very long time, whereas 5 weeks it doesn't. And I, I ran a couple of 3 week programs this year, and that was much easier for people, although it wasn't easier for me.

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Polly Hearsey: actually, because I and I know how much I

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Polly Hearsey: want people to understand in order to be able to action it.

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Sarah Santacroce: That's the thing right?

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Polly Hearsey: They had a little bit of a sort of like shockwave.

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Polly Hearsey: So I got so I just said to them at the end of it instead, I wasn't going to do a pitch at the end of it. I just said, Look, take your time, process it. Expect to go, you know. Come out of this high and come down through this processing, and then you come out the other side of it. Just be gentle with yourself.

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Sarah Santacroce: Hmm.

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Polly Hearsey: But I have, you know, for me it's like I I couldn't in all integrity

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Polly Hearsey: offer you something that didn't cover all of the bases.

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Sarah Santacroce: Right.

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Polly Hearsey: Even on, you know, I've scaled it back to just one focus. But I still, you know, I need to give you the information, because if you don't have that, then you've got missing pieces of the puzzle, and you're not gonna do anything with it. So.

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Sarah Santacroce: Yeah.

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Polly Hearsey: There there is for us when we're actually designing stuff. There is a bit of a balancing act to go on there, because we we know what we need to do in order to be in integrity with our own values.

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Sarah Santacroce: Yeah, exactly.

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Polly Hearsey: Equally responding to that changing need of.

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Polly Hearsey: I need something a little more immediate. I need something very specific. No, I mean.

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Sarah Santacroce: Yeah.

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Sarah Santacroce: yeah, what I did also because of the integrity piece. I I well, I've always had that. But I just have a flat fee where people can come again.

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Sarah Santacroce: Yeah, next round and and often. That's a very much appreciated gesture, because it doesn't mean Oh, you failed, and you didn't, you know, integrate it? But it just gives them more time. And that's often the thing that we don't have in these programs is like, Oh, 5 weeks so much content.

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Sarah Santacroce: And then you're like, Oh, exhausted after. So yeah, having this flat fee for past participants has really yeah helped people. I think, also just giving them permission, giving themselves permission. Yeah, I'm going to do this again. And this is this, is that deep.

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Polly Hearsey: Yeah. And it's okay. Because every time it's like, when you read a book.

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Polly Hearsey: when you read it the 1st time you have, you have particular paragraphs that jump out at you, and then you'll read it again. You think I'm really waiting for that moment, and it doesn't come, but it comes somewhere else, because you're just integrating and processing something else and understanding it. And if I think about my own journey through business because it's what it was 11 years now since

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Polly Hearsey: I started my business.

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Polly Hearsey: I don't recognize the person I was back then.

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Polly Hearsey: but if I go back to what I was talking about. I was talking about the same things.

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Sarah Santacroce: Yeah.

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Polly Hearsey: But my understanding of what I was talking about was very different.

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Sarah Santacroce: And.

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Polly Hearsey: And I knew that I had. In fact, I have a client who's worked with me over a number of years, say to me, and she'd had a break, and she came back and she said, the last program I ran, she said.

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Polly Hearsey: you've it's so much more coherent what you offer now.

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Polly Hearsey: Yeah, I mean, it feels that way. But it takes time to get there. It's like slow version of slow food version of business, you know.

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Polly Hearsey: next time

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Polly Hearsey: to build the flavors and to understand the process, and and to really sort of settle yourself into it. And I think that's what we're missing. I think it's also a hint of where we're going.

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Sarah Santacroce: Yeah, we'll get to that.

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Sarah Santacroce: But maybe

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Sarah Santacroce: so you're you're seeing these sub stack threads. And you know, listening to clients what they tell you, what do you feel like? Is is

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Sarah Santacroce: well, their biggest fear right now. But also, what kind of mistakes are they making because they're in fear? So what kind of business mistakes are they making.

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Polly Hearsey: I think one of the biggest mistakes that people are making are trying to persist in being places and doing things that they aren't right for them.

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Sarah Santacroce: Hmm.

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Polly Hearsey: And I said at the end of last year that I think social media will really.

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Sarah Santacroce: Hmm.

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Polly Hearsey: Have a massive shake up this year.

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Sarah Santacroce: Right.

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Polly Hearsey: And I do think that you know that sort of like the pressure to be on social media, to be on Tiktok, to be on Instagram to, you know, to have this visual presence.

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Polly Hearsey: People are realizing that it's not actually doing them any favors.

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Sarah Santacroce: Right.

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Polly Hearsey: And where everybody's consciousness is at, it's about depth and precision.

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Polly Hearsey: The the wonderful Jess Lorimer says.

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Polly Hearsey: An inch wide a mile deep. That's and that's where we're at, not not a mile wide and an inch deep, which is where we've been.

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Sarah Santacroce: Yeah, all the time. Right?

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Polly Hearsey: That depth.

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Polly Hearsey: So it's about having deeper conversations, about deeper connection, and that is so hard to achieve in sound bites.

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Sarah Santacroce: Yeah.

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Polly Hearsey: So when I say.

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Sarah Santacroce: Think of bias. We're.

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Polly Hearsey: And it's big of the sound bites.

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Sarah Santacroce: Yeah, we're wanting bite, sized things that we're offering. And yet we want to go deep.

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Polly Hearsey: I think the thing is, it's about what is there within you that is going to stop someone in their tracks and make them think.

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Sarah Santacroce: Hmm.

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Polly Hearsey: What is something that's really going to land? I was saying something this week in a group that I'm in, I saying there is a difference between visibility and having your content received.

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Polly Hearsey: You can be visible. You can be visible to millions of people. But that doesn't mean that content has achieved anything. And I think we have such a moral obligation to make sure that the content that we put out there actually has a meaning

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Polly Hearsey: and a value to somebody because it has a cost attached to it.

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Polly Hearsey: It has a cost to our planet.

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Sarah Santacroce: Right.

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Polly Hearsey: And it's a permanent escalating cost, because it goes into data banks that have to be sustained with electricity and water and land. That

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Polly Hearsey: so, you know.

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Polly Hearsey: for me, it's there's a huge amount of integrity about saying, not putting out this very shallow content just because it gets abuse. It's about depth.

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Polly Hearsey: It's me that is the mistake that people are making, because they're still trying to use the old methods.

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Polly Hearsey: So my conversation has always has been this year about, flip it, flip the script because you need to be thinking about. What can I do to create

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Polly Hearsey: the means for people to engage with me in a way that is actually meaningful for me and for my business.

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Sarah Santacroce: I'm.

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Polly Hearsey: Full for the people I support.

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Polly Hearsey: Yeah, that resonates in the business. Like, we're human book. I ask people to be assumption busters.

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Sarah Santacroce: Question all your assumptions that you have about business and social media and marketing, how it should be done, and then do it differently, like. I am so so tired of, you know, going on social media and looking what's out there, and everything is the same. It's like I was trying to break my brain about how to do this book launch, but do it differently.

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Sarah Santacroce: and not just follow the same copy and same structure that everybody else is doing. And so I think that's

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Sarah Santacroce: yeah. That's part of it. Like, how do we want to do this in a in a more human, engaging way, and not just be about.

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Sarah Santacroce: Well, let's just take this example. Not just be about a best selling author on Amazon, or, you know, getting a thousand reviews. What we're really doing is hustling for Bezos, who's taking all the benefit. And and we are just working like slaves to get those reviews. So like, question, all of these things that we have just bought as well. This is just how it is, and this is just how it works.

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Polly Hearsey: There is an assumption there, isn't it, that you don't have the power to change that.

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Sarah Santacroce: Yeah.

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Polly Hearsey: And that that's something I say all the time is like, don't underestimate your power. If you think about all of the new trends that happen. Someone started them somewhere.

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Sarah Santacroce: Yes.

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Polly Hearsey: So are you going to be a sheep, or are you going to be a leader? And that? And

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Polly Hearsey: when I talk about leadership, I know people sort of tend to go. It's not me. I'm not a leader because we have some really toxic

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Polly Hearsey: role models for.

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Sarah Santacroce: Leadership.

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Polly Hearsey: But there are different leaders coming.

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Sarah Santacroce: Hmm.

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Polly Hearsey: Quiet leaders, people who lead from the middle. And

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Polly Hearsey: you can have, you can create different ways of doing it.

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Polly Hearsey: And it doesn't have to be this sort of like standard standard approach.

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Polly Hearsey: And, in fact, the more subtle you are, the more creative you are, the more you're likely to be received because you're thinking, oh, hang on a second.

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Polly Hearsey: I didn't think I was being sold to like that. So I did in the program I did recently.

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Polly Hearsey: I set them all a task to produce a piece of content based on sort of understanding the the energetics of their business.

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Polly Hearsey: and they they produce the most extraordinary things.

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Polly Hearsey: And I asked them to share it because I wanted them to see the difference in reaction.

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Polly Hearsey: So you might get less of a reaction. But it'll be a deeper reaction.

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Sarah Santacroce: Hmm.

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Polly Hearsey: And so they got instant responses from people going. This spoke to me so deeply, and I asked them afterwards, said, Did you feel like you were selling.

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Polly Hearsey: and they said no, didn't feel like saying, but you were

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Polly Hearsey: still putting it on the table for people and people weren't feeling like they were being sold to.

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Sarah Santacroce: Right.

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Polly Hearsey: That's rebellious. That is the height of rebellion in a world that's all about. You've got to have conversions.

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Sarah Santacroce: Right? Yeah. So so do you feel like, that's

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Sarah Santacroce: right. Now, it feels like we're the outsiders. Still right? Do you think that's gonna Flip where.

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Polly Hearsey: I think it already has.

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Sarah Santacroce: It already has. Hmm.

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Polly Hearsey: But I don't think that some people are even aware I mean the last people to know that the change has happened to the people at the top. If you sort of mean, I think it has already changed, because

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Polly Hearsey: I mean, I just look at what people are talking about and just go. I've been saying that for 10 years. It's like slightly between gritted teeth. Which? But actually going? Well, if if everybody is now openly talking about that.

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Polly Hearsey: Then then a change has already happened.

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Sarah Santacroce: But I still.

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Polly Hearsey: Don't think that people know how to respond to it.

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Sarah Santacroce: Okay, yeah. Because what I see is like, when you talk to people

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Sarah Santacroce: they are like, yes, agreeing, you know, nodding their heads.

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Sarah Santacroce: But then when you see what they're posting.

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Sarah Santacroce: they're still adhering to the old rules, maybe because they don't. They don't have the new role models. They don't.

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Polly Hearsey: Have the alternative. So that's what that's what you and I are doing. We're providing them with the alternative. So we have to be the walking role models. We have to walk the talk and do it differently. And and that means we also have to be the experimenters. We have to fail a lot.

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Sarah Santacroce: Yes. Talk to me about that. Yeah.

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Polly Hearsey: And so that brings it. That's an interesting one, because it brings a degree of transparency about the fact that not all business efforts are successful. So this whole narrative that we've all come through in the last 4 years of this instant overnight success. Once I found out how to do XY. Or Z, because it was the missing piece.

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Sarah Santacroce: A magic pill.

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Polly Hearsey: The magic flipping wand and pill. Yes, it's that doesn't exist.

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Polly Hearsey: We we demonstrate that that doesn't exist.

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Polly Hearsey: and that actually, the real magic comes from

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Polly Hearsey: giving yourself permission to be creative.

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Sarah Santacroce: Right.

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Polly Hearsey: So that that has been challenging sort of like. Oh, right, I have to have a signature program and a signature talk, and I have to have a lead in, and I have to have an automation, and I have to have a welcome. All of these pieces

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Polly Hearsey: coming back to being assumption Busters. Why the hell do you actually need them?

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Sarah Santacroce: Nice.

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Polly Hearsey: Seriously. Why do you need them? Do you have to have that? You can have something that is paid?

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Polly Hearsey: And here's the interesting thing in terms of the buyer behaviours.

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Polly Hearsey: People are more likely to give you $5 $10 for something.

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Polly Hearsey: and then do something with it than they are to take a freebie.

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Sarah Santacroce: Hmm,

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Polly Hearsey: So why do you have to produce any free content.

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Sarah Santacroce: Hmm!

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Sarah Santacroce: That's interesting. I was just thinking about my workbook that goes together with the with the book, and in the 2 previous books I just had it as a free download, and it felt good until I, you know, started to realize. Well, I want to know who's working on these books, and like, you know, and so I was like, well, I'll just add it as a donation.

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Polly Hearsey: So that they can give. You know, however much they want, and.

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Sarah Santacroce: And I think that's when money feels good, if it's like, yes, I want to, you know, earn something for that. I've put a lot of effort and hours into it.

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Sarah Santacroce: But I understand your situation might be different, and you know, just kind of like putting it out there and explaining. I think a lot of what we're doing is explaining how things are.

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Sarah Santacroce: so that there is that transparency because.

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Polly Hearsey: Yeah.

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Sarah Santacroce: People are. So

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Sarah Santacroce: you know, everything was so hidden and and opaque that yeah, it just needs that time now to make everything super clear. And yes, that starts with affiliate links. But it also, you know. We talked about AI in our community. It's like, well.

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Sarah Santacroce: say, when you're using AI and make that clear. So yeah, all these different things that we do to help people in that transition so that they can gain trust again because they lost all the trust in any kind of message.

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Polly Hearsey: Yeah. But I mean coming back to sort of like, your original point of opening this this bit was, you've got to work with the tools that you've got.

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Sarah Santacroce: Right.

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Polly Hearsey: At your disposal right now, but it doesn't mean you have to work with them in the standard ways.

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Sarah Santacroce: Right.

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Polly Hearsey: So you can rethink those right now and think well, how can I do it? So you know some of the examples I gave in the Newsletter you referenced were.

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Polly Hearsey: why have a free substack? Why not just have a paid one?

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Polly Hearsey: You know you can use notes, or whatever to sort of like promote it.

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Polly Hearsey: You don't have to have a free one. You don't have to run one-to-one mentoring.

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Polly Hearsey: But bear in mind that the market doesn't want large groups. So how do you do that? How do you maximize that you can get really creative with the tools that you have and the technology that you have, but you can use it in a different way. So forget about the algorithms on Facebook

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Polly Hearsey: and do what feels good to you because it can guarantee that if you do what feels good to you, people will find it and engage with it, and then you'll actually be part of resetting the algorithm. Then, you know, in the short term. So

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Polly Hearsey: it it's think, stop stop thinking that you have to operate within the rules.

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Polly Hearsey: And my favorite, my favorite tool for business development is blank sheet of paper. What would you create if you didn't have any rules.

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Sarah Santacroce: What feels good, and then you might say, Oh, you know what.

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Polly Hearsey: That program was. And I did this myself this year. That program I was thinking of running.

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Polly Hearsey: I'm going to do it as pay what you want.

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Sarah Santacroce: Hmm.

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Polly Hearsey: Why not?

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Sarah Santacroce: I mean, that's something you can do. Do not do that if you are dependent on the income.

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Sarah Santacroce: Right? Of course.

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Polly Hearsey: You've got the flexibility.

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Polly Hearsey: Why not see how it lands? See what people give, and people will give a whole spectrum.

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Polly Hearsey: You know, and it depends on whether or not they know you, whether or not they know the value of it. What their financial situation is, it makes it more accessible, and that honesty of accessibility

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Polly Hearsey: changes the relationship. So have your blank piece of paper.

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Polly Hearsey: Think what what can I do?

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Sarah Santacroce: I guess it's not easy, like we've been in entrepreneurship for a while, right? And we know that we are in charge. We make all the decisions in our business. But for new entrepreneurs I can. I can totally understand the overwhelm. It would be much easier to have, you know, a 7 step process on how this works.

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Polly Hearsey: I mean.

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Sarah Santacroce: That's not the time we're in.

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Polly Hearsey: No. And the thing is that there's there's 2 groups of people that I see at the moment. There's the new entrepreneurs who are actually basically in a frozen state, because they know that they don't want to proceed down the normal route, but they don't know what else to do. So they do dabble with it, and it burns them, you know.

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Polly Hearsey: it really hurts. Yeah.

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Polly Hearsey: Then there's a group of people who've been through that, and they've got an established business, but

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Polly Hearsey: that has burnt them out completely.

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Sarah Santacroce: Yeah.

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Polly Hearsey: And they're at the point of hitting hitting the big red button to explode everything.

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Polly Hearsey: So yeah, so if you're a new entrepreneur, it's about finding

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Polly Hearsey: people who inspire you, and that doesn't have to just be in the business world, you know, if

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Polly Hearsey: you know how to.

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Polly Hearsey: How do I start my business. How is someone approaching that I've got? A dear friend who has such a gentle approach to her? Instagram?

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Polly Hearsey: It's just. It's just so gentle that you wouldn't necessarily know that it was selling.

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Polly Hearsey: you know, because she just does it in her own way.

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Polly Hearsey: And so I think that's that's

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Polly Hearsey: that's the thing is that finding yourself

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Polly Hearsey: people who really sort of like just make you. That's a beautiful way to share something.

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Polly Hearsey: There's a photographer. I'm so glad that her stuff comes. I like it every day, so that makes sure that I see it on my feed every day. She's just on an Anti AI cruise and photography crusade. Sorry. And so she shares a photo that she's taken every single day, and it's just like.

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Polly Hearsey: Oh, my God! She never mentions that you can go and buy this photos from her or anything. It's just. It's so gentle and it's so inspiring

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Polly Hearsey: that

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Polly Hearsey: it's about the energy that you feel. You think I wanna I want to hold that energy when I'm out there in my business. How would I do that.

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Sarah Santacroce: Just.

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Polly Hearsey: Throw out the rule book.

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Polly Hearsey: throw out all of the reference points of all the people who are telling you exactly how to do it, because that is a very toxic narrative to have in your head really, really toxic. It will keep you stuck.

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Sarah Santacroce: Hmm!

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Sarah Santacroce: I want to switch to the future now, and maybe hear from you 1st how you envision your work and life in 5 years can't go.

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Polly Hearsey: Okay.

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Sarah Santacroce: That right now is like, Oh, 5 years already feels really far.

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Sarah Santacroce: No, I'm not entirely sure I could get to 5.

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Polly Hearsey: To be honest.

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Polly Hearsey: okay, I mean, where I see business going is this complete transition? Because we're in a space where we simply cannot continue

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Polly Hearsey: down the path that we're on. It is not sustainable from a human point of view, it is not sustainable from an environmental point of view, and it's not even sustainable from the economic point of view. But that is not necessarily being understood.

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Polly Hearsey: So

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Polly Hearsey: I don't know if you've seen it. But the Uk government has just actually started talking about, how are they going to brighten clouds to reflect more sun? And how are they going to geoengineer the weather that they've actually provided grants for this research. You just go.

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Polly Hearsey: This is classic economic model. You just knew it was going to come. People are going to be trying to find. How can they make money out of solving the crisis?

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Sarah Santacroce: Hmm.

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Polly Hearsey: Here's the problem

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Polly Hearsey: that they're not looking at, or the solution that they're not looking at, and that is that the problems are solved by doing it in a completely different way. We cannot continue to use the economic model that we've got. So in terms of climate change, if we just actually poured all of our resources into restoring the soil, we would make a massive difference in a couple of years.

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Polly Hearsey: Huge difference.

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Polly Hearsey: And it's not about planting forests and forests and forests. It's about looking at the soil, because that's where most of the carbon goes.

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Polly Hearsey: So we have to. So to me the future of business is about returning it, returning the power to the people.

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Polly Hearsey: and that starts with believing in yourself and believing in the fact that you have a valid and valuable role in the world

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Polly Hearsey: which has been so severely eroded by the societies that we've set up.

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Polly Hearsey: So where do I think business is going? I think business is going into a much more diverse

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Polly Hearsey: creative process. When I say creative, I don't just mean everyone's going to go into the creative arts. I mean that it's about, who am I as a person? And what do I want to offer the world?

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Polly Hearsey: So it's going to become more diverse. It's going to become more creative? And ultimately

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Polly Hearsey: is this 5? Is it 10? Is it 20 years down the line? They business is actually going to be part, become part of the ecosystem.

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Polly Hearsey: Instead of being in an extractive mode, the economic

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Polly Hearsey: norms will have been reshaped. So that actually, we're in a collaborative mode.

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Polly Hearsey: That's complex, because there's a whole web of energies that are, you know, they've got existing pathways that is very hard to change, but that, to me is

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Polly Hearsey: the higher sort of philosophical philosophical philosopher.

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Polly Hearsey: Philosophical direction of travel.

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Sarah Santacroce: Hmm.

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Polly Hearsey: Because it's about restoring agency. It's about restoring individual power and restructuring society.

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Polly Hearsey: So that's not a 5 year thing.

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Polly Hearsey: but in 5 years time I think the expectations of businesses will be completely different.

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Sarah Santacroce: Yeah.

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Polly Hearsey: How about you?

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Sarah Santacroce: I like that vision.

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Sarah Santacroce: I just recently finished reading a book called Stellar, where

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Sarah Santacroce: the vision is that we have

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Sarah Santacroce: free energy that comes from the sun and the wind.

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Sarah Santacroce: and that then changes everything, because once we have free energy that is not extractive, but is regenerative.

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Sarah Santacroce: Well, the humans, in a way, it's kind of like you can just relax

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Sarah Santacroce: because there is not that need anymore to constantly produce. And, you know, create

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Sarah Santacroce: money to pay energy which then creates more crap. And you know, it's like this whole cycle. And so, yeah, I think I think it starts with with, like, you say, a complete systems change.

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Sarah Santacroce: I know already what we're already seeing is people don't want to work in in big businesses anymore, where it's just about, you know, climbing the ladder, and

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Sarah Santacroce: of course yes, there will. It'll be, I think, for a while there will be 2 worlds, 2 narratives. But eventually yeah, that that will change. And I think, actually like you, I think the power comes from the people.

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Sarah Santacroce: And so it's going to be these new leaders with innovative ideas. And yes, technology will help. But it will be with good intentions that we're using these technologies that are available.

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Sarah Santacroce: And I think the one the countries, if you think, from a country orientation? I think it's the small countries.

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Sarah Santacroce: probably from the global South that will be able to implement this the fastest.

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Polly Hearsey: Yeah.

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Sarah Santacroce: Because there's not that level of bureaucracy that we have in other countries.

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Polly Hearsey: Yeah. And I think that is a really interesting point, because we have these big institutions, you know, the bigger, the more established the economies of a particular country, the more we have these institutions, and so the power is controlled through the institutions.

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Sarah Santacroce: Exactly.

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Polly Hearsey: What's going to happen when we have more and more people coming into entrepreneurship, more and more people sort of choosing different pathways for their business for their careers, which not necessarily about owning a business

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Polly Hearsey: is, you diversify the the ground.

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Polly Hearsey: You change people's behavior in terms of how they engage with the businesses that they need in order to live.

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Polly Hearsey: and then, all of a sudden, there is nothing underneath those institutions.

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Polly Hearsey: and which means that governments don't have the power

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Polly Hearsey: to direct things anymore. So it's a very sudden collapse.

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Polly Hearsey: But it takes a long time coming, and it takes a lot of belief. So you know, going back to Martha Beck's pyramid in the pool

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Polly Hearsey: idea of, you know the changes created from the ground up.

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Polly Hearsey: We have to get across the base and work our way up slowly.

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Polly Hearsey: So for you and me because we we have to navigate. So you know, probably the conversations we were having with people, and what people were ready to hear 10 years ago, 5 years ago. That's changed. People are ready to hear something different now. So we have to keep advancing the conversation because it moves the the change up a little bit, because already, you know.

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Polly Hearsey: I see this all the time. It's like the the ground level where I might have started being, you know

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Polly Hearsey: 8 years ago, or whatever.

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Polly Hearsey: There's plenty of people there now saying exactly what I was saying back then, so I need to advance the conversation.

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Sarah Santacroce: Yeah, yeah, that's that's really good. And it reminds me also, when I shortened the the program.

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Sarah Santacroce: i 1 of the points I explained in my newsletter, I said. I can with all integrity do that because I feel like I'm picking people up at an advanced, more advanced level.

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Polly Hearsey: Yeah.

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Sarah Santacroce: Like when I started in 2019, I had to 1st explain, well, what is this? Why are we doing this? And now people are like, sign me up. Yeah, I want to do humane marketing.

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Polly Hearsey: The assumptions have already.

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Polly Hearsey: Is it.

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Sarah Santacroce: Yeah, exactly.

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Polly Hearsey: People have done the work which they hadn't done. So this is one of the reasons that this year I've been focusing a lot on what I call states of being and understanding those states of being of your audience.

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Sarah Santacroce: Because.

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Polly Hearsey: There are some who are still need to have it explained, and there are some who are in the process of getting ready, and there are a whole lot lot more people who are ready to do the work

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Polly Hearsey: if you talk

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Polly Hearsey: the right language to them. So you have to understand where they're at. You also have to understand what the role of your business is.

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Polly Hearsey: So because there are educator businesses who have a really important role to play in coming back to. I was saying to you before we started recording, but ecosystems of change.

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Polly Hearsey: you have to have people who are educators because it's like. It's asking people to open up and to do that assumption busting.

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Polly Hearsey: But you have to have the people who inspire different ways, and you and I fall into that category.

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Polly Hearsey: But we also have to have the people who

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Polly Hearsey: draw people together, and the people who focus on the actual mechanics of.

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Sarah Santacroce: Create.

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Polly Hearsey: The new. So we need all of these things, and everybody's business has a different role to play in that cycle. So we need to understand that. But you and I, we fall into that inspiration category. We we do show people how to do it.

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Polly Hearsey: But really, our focus is on saying, you want to go. Are you ready to go? Let's go because

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Polly Hearsey: you have the answers, and I can show you how to access them.

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Sarah Santacroce: That's kind.

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Polly Hearsey: What we do. So it's it's the conversation has changed.

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Polly Hearsey: Hmm, yeah.

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Polly Hearsey: I spent years thinking I am screaming into the void.

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Sarah Santacroce: Yes, yeah, in 2,018 that that was my or you know already before. But it's like when I put the 1st book out. It's like crickets, you know. Nobody was.

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Polly Hearsey: The collective consciousness was not ready to receive.

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Sarah Santacroce: Yeah.

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Polly Hearsey: But the simple act. Here's the thing that I think people must remember the fact that you put that out there

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Polly Hearsey: changed

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Polly Hearsey: the playing field. It doesn't matter that there were crickets. You change the playing field, so you made it more possible for that conversation to happen, and the words that you put out there. Then I bet they're being reflected back to you now the things that you see other people saying you're going. Oh, hang on a second. I said that.

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Sarah Santacroce: Yeah. And that's good, you know.

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Polly Hearsey: That's what we do it for.

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Sarah Santacroce: That's that's what we're here for. Yeah.

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Polly Hearsey: So. So we have to remember that even if we get crickets, there's a long term thing. And I say this a lot.

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Polly Hearsey: We have been trained to think that there is a direct correlation between the actions that we take and the responses that we get. So

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Polly Hearsey: you know, I I put this out, and I've got a bit of hair.

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Polly Hearsey: and I put this post out. I get a sale.

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Sarah Santacroce: I get sales. Yeah.

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Polly Hearsey: Doesn't work like that. And I was

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Polly Hearsey: an exercise, I say to people to put put something that you you genuinely believe about, and you believe in and put it out there, and you might get crickets. But then just open your awareness. 360,

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Polly Hearsey: and see where the response comes from. Because there you are. You're assuming there's a direct correlation between what I'm saying and the person that I'm talking to.

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Polly Hearsey: But actually, what you're doing is putting an energy out into the world. And then, if you're aware of it, some behind you, you're going to get a response.

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Sarah Santacroce: So, yeah.

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Polly Hearsey: So stop thinking. That's the other thing that we stop thinking about this direct causation.

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Polly Hearsey: It isn't a direct causation, it is. It is about the energy we put out, and then the energy that we receive.

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Sarah Santacroce: And so the problem with that is that we're being taught well, if you put something out there and nobody responds, then.

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Polly Hearsey: Failed.

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Sarah Santacroce: It's failed, and, you know, move on to the next thing. And meanwhile there's all this, you know, movement going on underneath the surface that you're not seeing. And so you know, people ask next year, what about your program? You're not doing that anymore. So.

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Polly Hearsey: So, and there there's if you agrees. The the

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Polly Hearsey: An analogy I use

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Polly Hearsey: is that if you if you look particularly spring now, if you look at this, there's a riot of growth going on.

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Polly Hearsey: Where does that growth start? It starts in the soil. Can you see it? No.

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Sarah Santacroce: No.

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Polly Hearsey: It's happening.

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Polly Hearsey: So we have. So there's a lot of trust. So and you and I have been through that. We've been through this sort of thing, feeling like we're talking

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Polly Hearsey: to nothing, you know, we're not getting a response. But actually, we've just been fertilizing the ground.

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Sarah Santacroce: No.

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Polly Hearsey: But we have to keep on doing that because.

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Sarah Santacroce: Keep on doing that.

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Polly Hearsey: Our part, you know, there's a lot of people who will then come in and work that. But we for us, it's about setting the expectations.

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Sarah Santacroce: Hmm.

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Polly Hearsey: What does it actually mean? Because about probably about 4 years ago, I noticed this big shift

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Polly Hearsey: in the way that some of the really big businesses, you know, the multi 7 figure businesses were talking and the language that they were using. And then I looked at what they were doing, and they were doing exactly the same thing, but they shifted their language.

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Sarah Santacroce: And.

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Polly Hearsey: It's more than that. It's not about just shifting your language. It's about shifting your expectations. It's about upholding your values. It's about listening to yourself in a different way, and giving yourself a different set of permissions to do things.

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Polly Hearsey: So he's.

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Sarah Santacroce: And that's what you said at the beginning. It's like people can smell that a mile away, right when it's just lipstick on a pig.

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Polly Hearsey: And yeah, and your business. It's what happens behind the scenes in your business and beyond the public gaze. That is as important as what you put out there publicly.

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Sarah Santacroce: Yeah.

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Polly Hearsey: There can be an absolute, you know, businesses that are car crash behind the scenes

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Polly Hearsey: that it helps no one. So you do the work on yourself, on how you hold your business, and how you conduct your business. You do that in order to build something that is resilient.

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Polly Hearsey: and that would be my. The one thing I would say to people is that if you want to have a business in the future.

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Polly Hearsey: you better then well, focus on your resilience.

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Sarah Santacroce: Hmm, okay.

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Polly Hearsey: I don't mean your economic resilience, I mean your energetic, your values-based resilience. Now.

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Sarah Santacroce: Hmm.

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Polly Hearsey: Cause it.

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Sarah Santacroce: I was just gonna ask you, kind of as a closing question, like.

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Sarah Santacroce: what kind of questions do you think leaders, entrepreneurs should ask themselves.

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Sarah Santacroce: either themselves or or about their business, just like what are the.

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Polly Hearsey: The number. One thing that I come, I tell people to do, and I and you cannot do it too many times.

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Polly Hearsey: You can do it every month if you want to, every week, if you want to, is, ask yourself what are my values, and how am I upholding them?

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Sarah Santacroce: Hmm.

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Polly Hearsey: And that means looking at the fine print of your terms and conditions as much as it means. How am I showing up.

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Polly Hearsey: Where is the integrity in that? Where is the integrity with my values?

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Polly Hearsey: Because your values come from within.

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Polly Hearsey: and the more that you are focused on your values, the more you are challenging and busting assumptions.

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Polly Hearsey: and the more you are opening up the landscape for your business to thrive in the future.

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Sarah Santacroce: Hmm!

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Sarah Santacroce: Beautiful.

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Sarah Santacroce: Well, I think we have a lot of hope for.

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Polly Hearsey: And do we do.

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Sarah Santacroce: Business of the future. I do. You do so. We'll just keep showing up.

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Polly Hearsey: I say, business has caused a lot of the problems.

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Polly Hearsey: It can also be the solution.

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Sarah Santacroce: Yeah, yeah, I really believe that it's.

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Polly Hearsey: Yeah.

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Sarah Santacroce: It's not the institutions, it's not the governments. It's the humans behind the businesses. Right?

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Sarah Santacroce: Yeah. Yep, yeah.

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Polly Hearsey: And that's going to be the thing that changes everything.

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Sarah Santacroce: Hmm.

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Sarah Santacroce: thank you, Polly, as always wonderful. Please do share where people can find out more about you, and sign up to your newsletter, etcetera.

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Polly Hearsey: Yeah, you can head over to my website, which is just polyhecy.co.uk, and and follow the breadcrumbs from there.

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Sarah Santacroce: Wonderful. Yeah. And let's let's do it again, sometime.

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Polly Hearsey: I'd love to.

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Sarah Santacroce: Thank you.

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Polly Hearsey: Thank you.

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Sarah Santacroce: Bye.

 

In this episode of Humane Marketing podcast, I'm joined by Rachel Allen for a deep dive into The Science of Buying. We explore how neuroscience and psychology quietly shape our buying decisions—and how understanding this can lead to more humane, effective sales.

From Rachel's "magic equation" for building trust, to knowing when your message says just enough, this conversation is packed with insights for entrepreneurs who want to sell with empathy, not manipulation.

Whether you're writing sales copy, nurturing relationships, or rethinking your entire approach, this episode will inspire a more connected and compassionate way to grow your business.

Here's what we covered in this episode:

• Some surprising ways neuroscience and psychology influence our buying decisions—often before we're even aware of it.
• Rachel's 'magic equation' for sales—and how it helps build trust and connection.
• The subtle power of great sales copy and messaging to spark interest before someone consciously realizes they want to buy.
• How to know when you've said enough—or maybe too much—in a sales message.
• Why, in a world driven by data and demographics, empathy and psychology are actually the stronger tools for real connection.
• The full ecosystem of a humane sales process—and how things like sales pages, nurture emails, and gentle follow-ups all weave together.

 

Watch this episode on YouTube

Join us for the upcoming Collab Workshop on May 7th where we open our community, the Humane Marketing Circle to the public, for a small donation.

--

 

Speaker 0:  hi, rachel. it's good to have you back, returning guest to the humane marketing podcast. welcome.

Speaker 1:  thank you. thank you. i'm so excited to be back. i always love, uh, repeat podcasts in general, but especially talking with you.

Speaker 0:  yeah. thank you. it's it's really good when you get to know one another. right. like, kind of kind of on a deeper level. i think the conversations are are different. yeah.

Speaker 1:  yeah. everybody gets to, like, drop their marketing face and just have a a human to human conversation.

Speaker 0:  exactly. yeah. so we decided to do another collab workshop. uh, you've been in the community before and you're i'm excited to have you back. and this time, we're gonna talk about the science of buying. right? so from the buyer's perspective, uh, more so from the seller's perspective, but understanding what's going on in the buyer's head so that we can then, you know, cater to that and then not in a manipulative way, of course, but just like in an empathy kind of way. it's like, oh, okay. i know what's going on in their heads so that i can write the sales page, the emails. so that's kind of like what we're gonna be talking about. so you have looked at this, uh, more deeply and also kind of like the neuroscience and psychology, uh, behind this idea of, well, what's going on in the buyer's head. um, obviously, there's all these tactics out there that are based on neuroscience. i'm pretty sure that's not what you're gonna tell us to do, but, um, yeah, i i'd love to hear your thoughts on all of that.

Speaker 1:  yeah. well, i you know, you're correct. i don't have seven steps to, you know, manipulate people using their brains because i think that's based on such a false understanding of how humans actually work. and this may sound like a slight digression, but just to give you the understanding of where i'm coming from psychologically with this, a lot of those tactics are based on a school of psychology and understanding of the human, uh, mind called behaviorism. so if you ever thought about, like, bf skinner and pavlov, that's behaviorism. right? it's like, oh, we push the button and that makes the thing happen and then we get the outcome. that works on a small scale with humans in limited conditional circumstances. but what the opposing school of that, which is called humanism, has found is that humans are driven by their will. we each have our free will. we decide things, and that's how we recreate things, and we bring, um, a lot of chaos actually to the sales process because we're human. and you can never just set up the internet atm where it's like, well, i put in input a and i get out output b because there's a human involved and you never know what's gonna happen.

Speaker 0:  yeah. yeah. i like that. is it actually called humanism? that's that's a term for it. uh, that makes so much sense. yes. so so yeah. what are some of these strategies or or things that you have learned and that you feel like, you know, that feels good rather than, yeah, we're just abusing, uh, neuroscience and using it in in our favor?

Speaker 1:  right. yeah. it's i've never been a fan of, uh, lab rat tactics. you know? well, it's, oh, let's, like, poke them and see what happens. that just doesn't feel good to me, and it's also not really effective. so, um, the main things that i remind people when i'm teaching this are that you don't have to be a mind reader to understand what someone's going through in a sales process because you're a person too. we all kind of go through the same phases, which is i have a problem. maybe i realize that. maybe i don't realize it. maybe i don't even know what the problem is, but i'm like, uh, like, just i'm in discomfort or, like, something's not working. i need to get somewhere else than where i am now. then we tend to go through a period of exploration. right? what do i actually want? do i know? i don't know. maybe i could find out. i'll try this thing. i'll try that thing. and then finally, we find something where we're like, okay. i'm pretty sure that's gonna be the thing or it's at least worth a try. should i do it? and then we go through this period of having to convince ourselves. mhmm. and that's where the opportunity is with sales pages and, um, lesser nurture campaigns. those come a little bit before. but people usually focus on that, like, oh, do i buy it or do i not area when they come to sales pages and the whole conversation is a huge part of it.

Speaker 0:  i like that. the conversation is a huge part of it. so, essentially, what you're saying is, like, the sales page should feel like a conversation addressing these thoughts that go through the buyer's head. right? uh, that's that's that's good. um, so so you talk about this magic equation, uh, for sales. uh, maybe, uh, i know we're gonna go more deeply into it in the workshop, but maybe you could just kind of give us a sneak preview of of what that is. what's the magic equation for sales?

Speaker 1:  oh, i was so excited when i finally was able to articulate this. so for a sale to happen, you have to get the right thing in front of the right person at the right time and in the right way. and if any one of those factors is off, the sale doesn't happen.

Speaker 0:  and i saw your linkedin post on that, and i was like, yes. that's it. exactly. yeah. go ahead.

Speaker 1:  why, um, well, that's why people get so i think they take so much, uh, responsibility on themselves with sales, and they try to control these factors that they really can't control because, like, you can't control when someone's going to encounter your thing. you can't control the way in which they encounter it. you can make the best thing you can, and you can understand whoever your ideal person is. like, you've got the most control over those two factors, but you have no control over the other two. and so people get so, like, wrapped up in this idea of, oh, i'm bad at marketing or, oh, i'm bad at sales because i can't control the flow of time. and when you say it like that, it's like, well, of course, that's a bit silly. but so much marketing advice is predicated on, like, well, no, you should just, like, control these things. how, how are you supposed to do that?

Speaker 0:  yeah. yeah. it's so good. and it reminds me of, um, something i talk about in the selling, like we're human book. i, uh, i think i make the point of, uh, the, the, the idea that more sales calls does not equal more sales necessarily. because if your, like, intake form, for example, is not clear or your marketing is not good, then you can talk to tons of people. but if they're not at the right point in time, like the point you're making, well, then you're basically just i guess you're telling yourself i'm busy. i'm selling. you know? but then you're gonna be disappointed because you're not making the sales because people are just not at that readiness point to to actually buy. um, i feel there's a lot of pressure to, you know, do all these sales calls and then and then obviously they become pushy because you feel like, oh my god, i'm so exhausted after 10 sales calls and nobody buys. and then you try to, you know, get more and more pushy. uh, but but yeah. it's the opposite of of humane selling for sure.

Speaker 1:  yeah. that equation. right? that's not humane to you as the person who's doing selling either. and, like, i really love this metaphor of the conversation because if there's a conversation where one person is just monologuing at you, like, what do you naturally physically do? you know, when that guy in the bar comes up to you, you're like, um. but and that's what happens with marketing. but if you can turn this around and it becomes a conversation, you can create situations in which you don't have to to encounter people at, like, their right moment because they already know you. and so when the moment's right, they come and find you. they lean in towards you, and you don't have to try and stress out about being everywhere all the time because, you know, they know how to get to you.

Speaker 0:  mhmm. yeah. yeah. it it reminds me of another post i just saw, uh, on linkedin about, you know, the right now, things are kinda tough with the economy the way it is and talk about recession. and so people get, you know, they they have the scarcity mindset and everybody feels like, well, i should be selling more. but right now, it's probably not the time to sell more, but it is the time to build the trust for future sales and keep being visible. and so, yeah, these conversations to build those in and to into let's talk a little bit about email marketing as well, because that's also part of of the nurturing. right? so so how can we bring more of these conversations into, yes, the sales copy, but also the emails, for example?

Speaker 1:  yeah. well, i love i love how you've laid these phases out. right? because we'll see people, and you and i have both been around business and not long enough to see how that this will happen, is that the people who are showing up right now are the ones that when things do turn, they're going to be absolutely inundated with business. and then everybody else is like, oh, wait. i gotta get my emails going. so this is a really good time to get nurture campaigns and other conversations like that going.

Speaker 0:  right.

Speaker 1:  and to answer your question about, you know, how we incorporate that, i think people have this idea of what a nurture campaign is that's based um, in the mid aughts. like, it's very 02/2008 to very 02/2009. it's like, it's seven emails. and the first one is like, oh my god. you're here. and the second one is like, did you download the thing yet? and then you work up to a sale. right? it's so boring. i hate it so much. i'm seeing a thousand of them. they all are, like, ai generated now. so i invite people to reframe what a nurture campaign is is just it's creating instances for someone to know you over and over again. it's kind of like making it to where you run into each other at the coffee shop every morning, and then you're like, oh, yeah. i know her. so it can be whatever you want it to be. so for instance, in my other business that i do with solve a pet triple diamond, we actually have a repulsion campaign, an anti nurture campaign where we write five emails to our unideal clients. and it's funny, and there's the haiku, and we're like, absolutely not. we even have a song in it. and that's showing who we are instead of being like, we're triple diamond and here are our values. it's like, hey, we wrote a funny haiku about how much we hate elon. you wanna join? that shows you who we are.

Speaker 0:  yeah. i talk about the worldview all the time. like, show your worldview, show what your stand what you stand for. and that's a great example. people wanna stay away for from politics. but frankly, right now, like, please, you know, it's no longer the time for business as usual. so, uh, yeah, address politics because clearly, you're you're, yeah, you're you're gonna resonate with the people who who stand for the same things. right? so yeah. we just actually had the the last workshop was about email marketing and and, yeah, she she she basically said the same thing, like or or we had this discussion also, like, what's with the term nurturing anyway? like, people actually said, well, i don't feel nurtured or this is not what nurturing is. right? so, yeah, just kind of understanding that people don't sign up to an email list to feel like to get nurtured. you know, we should we usually sure, like, see for nurturing someone somewhere else. but, um, it's just good to yeah. think about, well, how do people feel when they sign up to something? and how would you feel, uh, when you sign up to to an email list as well and and just apply the same thing?

Speaker 1:  and how, like, how do you want them to feel? like, we with our particular campaign, we want them to feel amused and seen and, like, somebody is, like, taking a stand. with other future campaigns, you might want someone to feel, uh, educated. that's another really popular one. you need to, like, bring them through a journey of learning something. so it doesn't have to be this, like, extremely transparent build up to a sale of, like, okay. i'm gonna give you three little, like, gifts, and then you're gonna wanna work with me. like, no. it's thinking about, like, what kind of relationship do you want? what kind of party are we throwing here? how do you want them to feel?

Speaker 0:  yeah. and all of that is is part of the trust building. right?

Speaker 1:  yeah. that's

Speaker 0:  that's what we're doing. another thing you talk about is is data and demographics and why psychology, uh, or, um, what are they called? psychographics are much more important than just, you know, the, yeah, the demographics of your ideal client. so talk to us a little bit about that.

Speaker 1:  oh, this is one of my favorite soapboxes. so when people started teaching the concept of a client avatar, they took that from traditional mass marketing and then took, like, two little tiny facets of it and taught those and ignored the rest of it. so people think that what you need to learn about them is like, okay. well, your audience is women and they're between the ages of 35 and 50. uh, they are married and college educated and they like cats. that's not an avatar. that's an imaginary friend, and that doesn't tell you anything about the person. so those are their demographics. their psychographics are how they feel about things and why they feel that way. because you can take people who have extremely similar demographic profiles who have completely different psychographics. and if you try to market to them in the same way, they're probably both going to be turned off because you're just not going to really speak to what either one of them cares about.

Speaker 0:  yeah. yeah. it's it's such a huge difference. and then in my marketing, like, we're human program, people are always surprised when i come back with, you know, the the p p of people where we go into the ideal client. a lot of them say, oh, i've already worked on that. and i'm like, yeah, but you haven't worked on it like this. yeah. yeah. we have this. and that's why people are also kind of scared of defining their niche because they feel like, oh, i have to just kind of like have a niche. and, and, you know, usually it's demographic based. it's like, i have to only work with women between this and this age. no, you don't. the minute you bring in your worldview or the psychology of your ideal client, then it opens up. it's like it's based on resonance. because if you put out your worldview into your marketing, then it will only resonate with the, with this ideal client. doesn't matter what gender they are, what age, what race doesn't none of that matters. right?

Speaker 1:  yeah. yeah.

Speaker 0:  it's it's it's such an important difference. and i i really hope, like, the new kind of marketing people are that's what they're teaching. i don't know. you're more involved still and and and and you're saying that there there's still people out there teaching demographics?

Speaker 1:  yeah. it's find your niche. it's you want to be the something for this tiny little subset of people. but that's created this situation in which people are getting into, like, crazy tiny niches because they wanna be different, and that just doesn't do anything for you.

Speaker 0:  yeah. yeah. yeah. what about, um, you know, kind of like if we if we go back to the signs of buying. so from the the buyer's perspective, what other things like, if we put ourselves into the head of the buyer, what are the things maybe also if we compare it to ten years ago, how do you think the buyers, um, consciousness and intellect and, you know, the decision making has changed compared to ten years ago maybe.

Speaker 1:  so i think that humans are humans, and they're always like, decision making in and of itself, the process is still gonna be the same. you know, we go through this period of, like, there's something wrong. i wanna fix it. what do i do? how do i convince myself i've made a good decision? how do i feel about this? all of that. but i think sales cycles in general are taking longer right now because people are extremely tired. there is so much coming at them all the time. there's no off ever for most people unless they are creating it for themselves. and there's, you know, a pervasive sense of just pessimism and fear and uncertainty. and so i think that means our job as sellers and marketers is to acknowledge that and be honest about it and not try to just be like, yeah. but if you buy my ninety day course, everything will be fine because that's just not true. but you can also create the sense of, like, you know what? i get this. you're scared. and also, we can move over here and we can we can fix this one thing. we can't fix the world, but i can fix this one problem you have.

Speaker 0:  yeah. i really like that. so so there's transparency, but there's still also hope and and and being very honest to say, hey, yes. i can promise you, you know, 10 new clients after going through this program. but what i do know that it will fix is this specific thing. yeah. i agree with that because i think i think, yeah, we can't just pretend, you know, it's not uncertain right now, and we don't know where where it's going. we have to treat our clients as smart conscious consumers or or buyers. and and so i think that's super, super important to come over with transparency, but at the same time, you know, knowledgeable and and also, yeah, confident in our offering. so it's kind of like this blend of, uh, or yeah. of of both things.

Speaker 1:  yeah. and i think i love how you phrase that, the knowledgeable and confident in the offering. and i think that's so important because what also happens during these times is people, unfortunately, will sometimes jump on a disaster as a marketing trend, and then they use it as this, like, things are so bad. oh my god. we gotta fix it right now. i know things are terrible. and that doesn't help anyone. all that does is add more chaos and fear into the atmosphere. and it's manipulative and gross, you know, to try and profit off of the general fear that is going around right now. it doesn't last. and that's you get a lot of churn that way, but you do not get long term sales. and, also, you just kinda look like a jerk.

Speaker 0:  yeah. yeah. uh, and i like the last thing you just said is, like, it will give you you will sell fast, uh, for those who are like, oh, yeah. i'm really scared. okay. i'm gonna buy this thing, and it'll fix all my problems. but then, you know, two months later, they'll one, they won't do the work, um, because they don't have the confidence in themselves. and then two, either they'll if it's a long term, i don't know, a membership or something like that, well, they'll probably check out again or, uh, or you'll you won't get them the results. and then that's that's never good either to have a client who who doesn't get the results. right? so, yeah, it's, uh, it you know, selling is is always a bit of a tricky thing, but i think especially in in in in a downturn economy, it's even it's it's even more tricky. and i think also the the thing you said that people are tired. so what does that mean? like, i was just thinking if people are tired and we come with our, you know, long sales page, long emails, uh, you think we need to adjust our copy a little bit, make it shorter? like, is is that something you would do?

Speaker 1:  uh, it depends on the person and the offer. so the thing that i'm finding most effective in terms of tactics or, actually, let me rephrase that. the the key factor that i'm seeing in sales right now is what people's friends say. so if you can create a situation in which they're gonna go to the voxer chat or their whatsapp chat or whatever and be like, okay. rachel allen, how do we feel? and they're like, oh, yeah. she's solid. that's what you want, and that's how people are buying right now. so if you create that kind of situation, um, that's what you want. in terms of length of sales pages and, like, how you engage with people, it depends on your audience. um, some people are really into video right now, especially short form video because they're acclimated to tiktok, and that just works really well for their brain. other people are, like, going you'll see this, like, they're going to substack. right? and so they want these, like, long things. so i think it comes back to knowing your audience. but in general, the sort of equation that i give people for writing copy is the heavier the cognitive or financial lift, the longer the copy should be.

Speaker 0:  oh, that's interesting. yeah. so so i think in the workshop, you'll also talk about the faqs at the end. right? so, actually, yeah, the bigger the investment, the more i'm gonna want to know upfront. okay. what are what is all the fine print? what am i getting? like yeah. at least i always know that for my audience is, like, they they they like that there's a lot of info on that page. they might not read it all, but, uh, you know, it's there. and so, yeah, the faq is is definitely an important piece. and and, of course, if it's only, like, a very small amount, then, yeah, maybe shorter is is better. but, again, you need to know your audience and and and understand what's going on in their heads.

Speaker 1:  right. yeah. it's an exercise in empathy. it's thinking, like, what do i want? what would i want if i were signing up for this? and if you're working with faqs especially, the types of questions you choose can really show your audience that you care about them and you understand them. because if you're answering questions they don't have, like, who cares? it might make feel like, oh, this isn't for me. but if you can answer those questions that they have themselves or, like, they get to the bottom of the sales page and they're like, oh, i would do this, but if you can address that, you've got the sale.

Speaker 0:  right. yeah. yeah. it's kinda like the you know, what you were saying, the the email series to, uh, a non ideal client. it's almost like if you formulate the faqs in a way that addresses also, you know, this is not for you if right then it kind of reconfirms that. oh, yeah. no. uh, this is actually for me when they get to the bottom of the page.

Speaker 1:  yeah. absolutely. and if you can frame that in such a way where you're talking about the way they think about who they don't wanna be, you know, then they'll be like, oh, okay. well, like, i'm definitely not that kind of person, so this is for me. and they feel a sense of belonging, and they feel cared for and seen.

Speaker 0:  yeah. i wanna come back to the idea that you shared before that it matters what other people or or friends think of us. and and that and this is, yeah, really, really important. it taps into collaboration with other, uh, with other people, what you're doing with apache, what we're doing right here. right? it's kind of like this putting my hand in the fire and saying, yes. uh, you know, i trust rachel. she's aligned with our values. i wanna bring her into the community. i want you to buy her stuff. um, so this kind of partnership, uh, is really, really key. and it it i still don't see it often enough. like, uh, p of partnership is the seventh p of humane marketing. but people feel like, especially beginning entrepreneurs, they have a hard time because they they kind of lack a bit of confidence. they don't have a, you know, a really built out offering yet. um, so is there anything that you would suggest where they can start, you know, creating more partnerships with with others?

Speaker 1:  i think, uh, it's just being as generous as you can, um, you know, while still, of course, taking care of yourself. but the best partnerships i've ever had, they even though i've never met these people, you know, they they live on the internet, uh, for me. but it feels like i'll be stepping into their kitchen and being like, oh, let me tell you that sales page for you or like, oh, and they'll do that for me. right? like, pepsi will be like, oh, you know that logo? let's change it a little bit. so it's these these micro, um, i guess, interactions or encounters where people are showing their values, they're demonstrating them, and they're being really generous. and there's no, like, endgame. right? it's not that i'm secretly, you know, editing people's copy to build up to, like, oh, but then they will hire me. i don't care. it's fun for me. it's easy. it takes me absolutely no time whatsoever, and it really helps somebody. and, eventually, maybe we'll work together. or what's much more likely and what tends to happen is they send their friends to me, and that's great too.

Speaker 0:  yeah. yeah. exactly. not have that agenda of thinking, oh, she's gonna hire me. no. but who knows?

Speaker 1:  who knows? right. yeah. that up there and then something, like, something good comes back more often than not.

Speaker 0:  yeah. amazing. yeah. great. well, yeah, like i said, i i look forward to having you back in the in the community for this workshop. do you wanna give us a little sneak preview of what we're gonna build on this content, of course, but any anything you'd like to share, what we're gonna be talking about during that workshop?

Speaker 1:  yeah. well, we'll be talking about the psychology of buying and selling, and then we'll talk we'll go into some specifics of how that can look in different settings. so for instance, in a sales page, in a nurture campaign. and by the end, you'll have this matrix like view of seeing how the psychology of buying and selling can play into any copy and content that you do. so when you read something, you'll be like, that's what they're doing or that's what i need to do. and i love teaching like that because now it's not like, oh, here's my sales page template. go and use it until everybody gets bored. it's no. you understand buying. you understand selling, and you can use those principles to form whatever you need to form that's a fit for you, your offer, and your audience.

Speaker 0:  yeah. i can't wait. and then if it's anything like the pitching workshop we did, it's very hands on. right? like, we we really get to practice this, which is, um, yeah, it's always the best way to learn. so can't wait to have you in the community. so if anybody wants to join us for this workshop, it's on may 2. and, uh, you can find out all about it at humane.marketing/workshop. we open the community to the public for a small donation, and rachel and i would love to see you there. please also do share rachel where people can find you find out you have a i don't know. it might be too late. can't remember when this, uh, podcast goes out, but you have other workshops also available on your site that, um, i'd love for you to mention.

Speaker 1:  yeah. uh, i'm very easy to find on the internet. so my website is boltfromthebluecopywriting.com. you can email me at [email protected], and i will email you back. um, and on my website, like sarah said, you can find different workshops. i teach one free workshop a month, uh, in april, depending on where this when this airs. it's going to be the internet's favorite bio workshop, how to write a bio that doesn't make you sound boring, braggy, or like you have bad boundaries. and i believe i'm teaching the pitching workshop that i taught in the community, uh, in may, like, not for the community. and then after that, we've got positioning and something else. but, yeah, it's all on the website.

Speaker 0:  cool. yeah. highly recommend them. and, uh, yeah, please join us for the the workshop in the community on may 2. wonderful. thanks so much, uh, rachel. i always appreciate talking to you. always learn something new. maybe, uh, last question. where do you do you see any new developments? like, given that all this ai is coming in, like, what's gonna make us stand out from the human, uh, side of things?

Speaker 1:  yeah. well, as i've been saying on the internet for, i don't know, forever, human is the only move left. moments like this, whether it's ai, whether it's, you know, the seo update internet apocalypses that come upon us, they're filters and opportunities. and who rises up is whoever is able to be most human and most themselves and most in relationship with the people around them, and that's just how it is. the tools, the tools, the tool. it's gonna stop being shiny after a while. yes. it has absolutely changed the way we work, but it's still us humans, people doing the work together. and so the more you can show up as you as human, the better you're gonna be.

Speaker 0:  yeah. it's all it's all on relationships. that's, you know, that's that's how we sell as well. it's really like, have we spent the time building the relationship even if we never see them, but they often feel like they know us because they've been reading our emails or substacks or linkedin posts. so it all matters. yeah. amazing. thanks so much.

Speaker 1:  yeah. see you soon.

In this episode, I'm joined by leadership guide Lisa Foulger for a gentle yet powerful conversation about what animals can teach us about leadership and business. We explore the wisdom in slowing down, the power of presence, and how reconnecting with nature can shift the way we lead, work, and live.

From her life in Costa Rica to her insights on the Inner Development Goals, Lisa offers a refreshing, nature-inspired perspective that invites entrepreneurs to embrace a more sustainable, mindful, and humane way of doing business.

In this episode, we discussed…

• What sparked Lisa's interest in discovering leadership lessons from animals.
• Why the sloth became her animal of focus—and what makes it such a powerful and unexpected teacher for leadership and business.
• The cultural obsession with hustling—and how adopting a sloth-like approach can lead to more humane, sustainable business practices.
• Lisa's life in Costa Rica, and whether Costa Ricans relate to nature differently than people in more industrialized parts of the world.
• The Western tendency to separate nature from work—and how we can gently bring nature back into our leadership and business practices.
• The role of mindfulness and slowing down in building a business world that's more sustainable, kind, and connected.
• How Costa Rica is pioneering the application of the Inner Development Goals (IDGs) at a national level—and what that looks like in daily life and leadership.
• A simple, nature-inspired step that listeners can take today to bring more wisdom and presence into how they lead.

Watch this episode on YouTube

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Sarah:  hello, humane marketers. welcome back to the humane marketing podcast. the place to be for the generation that cares. this is a show where we talk about running your business in a way that feels good to you, is aligned with your values, and also resonates with today's conscious customers because it's humane, ethical, and non pushy. i'm sarah senecroce, your hippie turned conscious business coach for quietly rebellious entrepreneurs and change makers, mama bear of the humane marketing circle, and renegade author of marketing like we're human, selling like we're human, and soon also my third book, business like we're human. if after listening to the show for a while, you're ready to move on to the next level and start implementing and would welcome a community of like minded, quietly rebellious entrepreneurs who discuss with transparency what works and what doesn't work in business, then we'd love to welcome you in our humane marketing circle. if you're picturing your typical facebook group, let me paint a new picture for you. this is a closed community of like minded entrepreneurs from all over the world who come together in two meetups per month to hold each other accountable and build their business in a conscious and sustainable way. we all share with transparency and vulnerability what works and what doesn't work in our business so that you can figure out what works for you, instead of keep throwing spaghetti on the wall and seeing what sticks. find out more at humane dot marketing forward slash circle. twice per year, i host my signature program, the marketing like we're human, aka the client resonator program live. in a deep dive into the seven p's of the humane marketing mandala, you will learn to market from within. this program is for you if you want and need to get more clients, but want to share your message in an ethical and humane way. if you want to make a difference with your work. if you are just starting out, or if you have been in business for a while, but haven't really found the marketing activities that work for you. or also, if you are pivoting your business from business as usual to your life's work and want to radically change the way you get clients. find out more at humane dot marketing forward slash program. and finally, if you prefer one on one support from me, my humane business coaching could be just what you need, whether it's for your marketing, sales, general business building, or help with your big idea like writing a book. i'd love to share my brain and my heart with you together with my almost twenty years business experience and help you grow a sustainable business that is joyful and sustainable. if you love this podcast, wait until i show you my mama bear qualities as my one on one client. find out more at humane dot marketing forward slash coaching.

Sarah1:  welcome back, friends. i am back from two amazing weeks in egypt. if you're on my email list, you hopefully enjoyed the pictures i sent. it truly was amazing. and just in the last few days, a team of scientists from italy made a new discovery of gigantic structures underneath the giza plateau. they're using some kind of radar technology, and they found pillars as tall as the eiffel tower. imagine that. i'm just so excited about all the new discoveries we'll be making about our long lost ancestors and civilizations. to me, it it really is this passion about, yeah, what makes us human and how this all started. and and maybe it's at the border of humans and, you know, some other kind of beings. but, anyway, if we ever meet at a cafe, well, i can talk about this for hours. but back to today's conversation, which fits under the partnership. this time, we're partnering with animals, and i'm talking to community member lisa folger. if you're a regular here, you know that i'm organizing the conversations around the seven ps of the humane marketing mandala. and if you're new here and don't know what i'm talking about, you can download your one page marketing plan with the humane marketing version of the seven piece of marketing at humane.marketing/ 1 page. that's the letter that's the number one and the letters page. it comes with seven email prompts to really help you reflect on these different piece for your business. so a few words about lisa. a dynamic leadership coach and best selling author with over thirty five years of corporate and entrepreneurial learning and success, including twenty five pioneering years at hp, lisa folger is an international coaching federation professional certified coach and is certified in scaling up positive intelligence and among others. lisa inspires leaders to scale their mindsets, their teams, and their businesses to make a positive impact in the world. passionate about cultivating healthy mindsets, driving transformative impact, and advancing global sustainability, she leaves a lasting positive mark on people and the planet. a proud mother of three awe inspiring daughters, lisa thrives in vibrant cost costa rica where she continues to inspire others through her leadership and vision. so in this episode, we discussed what sparked lisa's interest in discovering leadership lessons from animals, why the sloth became her animal of focus, and what makes it such a powerful and unexpected teacher for leadership and business, the cultural obsession with hustling and how adopting a sloth like approach can lead to more humane, sustainable business practices. lisa's life in costa rica and whether costa ricans relate to nature differently than people in more industrialized parts of the world. the western tendency to separate nature from work and how we can gently bring nature back into our leadership and business practices, the role of mind mindfulness, how costa rica is pioneering the application of the inner development goals, idgs, at a national level, and what that looks like in daily life and leadership, and then a simple nature inspired step that listeners can take today to bring more wisdom and presence into how they lead. so without further ado, let's listen to this conversation between lisa folger and myself.

Sarah2:  hey, lisa. it's good to hang out with you.

Lisa:  hi, sarah. glad to be here.

Sarah2:  yeah. good to have you. first time on the humane marketing podcast. so excited. we talk regularly through the humane marketing community and you've been in the program, so we know each other quite well. i feel so it's always the conversations always go deeper, when we know each other. right. so looking forward to talk about animals and leadership sessions, not sessions. and what i wanna say, lessons that we can learn from from animals. so, yeah. you hosted a session last year during our humane marketing circle expo with colleagues, rory and aslam, around this topic of what can we learn from animals for our leadership. so first, i'm curious to know how did you come up with this topic? like, why this topic? what fascinated you about this topic?

Lisa:  yes. certainly. i mean, the theme was, you know, kinda learning from nature is what we challenge ourselves. what would we bring to bear? because each of us lives in a different country. we all spend a lot of time outside in nature, and we were i think the conversation initially started when aslam was looking out her window in a london tower and saw the beautiful array of swans doing all sorts of amazing positions, looking so calm, looking so conscious, looking so just reflective and contemplative. and, you know, it really caught her attention, and she's been fascinated. so she's always telling us stories about the swans. but then at one point, she said, you know what? i looked it up and really underneath the surface, the swans are pedaling furiously. i mean, it's chaotic. it's crazy. it's phrenic. and we said, wow. yet from the outside, it's so calm, so, you know, beautifully, patient. and said, what else? i mean, could we learn because we resonate with that. you know, so many times, we are frenetically moving and doing and, scurrying to be ready. and yet when it takes place, we're actually present. and just being there is all that's really needed. and so it just spurred a level of curiosity and interest, to investigate. so we each said, okay. pick a favorite animal. let's talk about what are some of the leadership lessons we can learn. and i, living in costa rica and having sloths as neighbors thought, you know, why not? like, that's like the opposite of the scurry is the very slow and methodical and patient and present sloth. and so that's what i chose. and then rory chose the elephant because it had such female leadership qualities that we all admired and all three of us being female leaders were like, wow. you know, that's fabulous. let's tap into that. so it was a really curious exploration, and it's continued. like, the year since that has gone on, we have had various conversations and in-depth contemplations on what will we do with that next. and so we're working right now on what our next expo theme will be. and it's all around being. i think we will choose some animal influences as well. one of the ones that i am playing with right now is the monkey because monkeys are also part of my neighborhood collection of beautiful nature. and i love the curiosity element of monkeys. and so one of the elements that i'm playing with. but it was, you know, a way to find a theme that we're all passionate about and, you know, have it be a bit playful and engaging. and so in the workshop, you know, we had our three animals, but we had many other people join and share their favorite animals and what lessons that they had learned from them. so i think there's a lot that we can pick up from our surroundings and our environment and nature as you well know.

Sarah2:  yeah. yeah. it's so beautiful. and and it reminded me of the i i just hosted a a podcast, with the title is slow business more humane, with my friend, andy mort. and this he calls himself a slow business coach or a slow coach. and and so it just reminded me of you and the sloths. and and so it's so controversial, right, to bring slowness into business. and so it it takes well, it takes courage to say, well, actually, i do want to, you know, make it slower. and and so, yeah, i'm just curious what kind of things you shared around the sloths and and what qualities you appreciate from the sloth.

Lisa:  yeah. and i'm glad you mentioned andy because i got to that part in your book, and i love the reference and the connection to the sloth, and going slower, going deeper. that's been a big, big journey of mine, especially in the last couple years. i left the corporate world eight years ago, after a twenty five year run. and now working with more small and medium businesses, i am finding that being conscious and really building the mental resilience to handle the ups and downs that are going on around us is such an important leadership skill. so from the sloth perspective, you know, they're very, very intentional. like, they usually come down from the tree once a month.

Sarah2:  wow. it's amazing. once a month.

Lisa:  they have to plan really, really well, and they're very slow in their pace, and they're very conscientious because they can't move very fast. they have to be very careful as they plan their moves, to avoid being, you know, attacked by predators or any other danger in the system. they have to find their food very strategically. so they're very, curious, very methodical, very patient, and they're very reflective. so all those qualities make for, handling our crazy chaotic world in a more kind, gentle, patient, and contemplative way, i would say. one of the you know, i wrote a chapter in the book, leading with self awareness last year. and one of the stories that i highlighted is that, you know, often we open doors. the chapter is called, you know, opening doors to discover me. but often we open doors and we have no idea what we're entering into. and that ability to be patient, to be present, to be calm, to be curious is such a beautiful gift to discover what opportunities lie ahead. and so i'm a big believer, in creating the spaciousness to allow that perspective to show up, and it's not so easy. like, i'm a recovering corporate a level, you know, executive for many, many, many years. it took some real life changes and choices to put that first and foremost in my perspective.

Sarah2:  yeah. yeah. and it's such a big topic, right, of the business like we're human book. it's like the and i only remember one line, from your, case study when you went through the marketing like we're human program. you you said the depth was always there, but it took this program or the pausing to discover it or rediscover it. right? and so that's what that's what we do when we take when we create the spaciousness. and we, yeah, we are sloths like. we probably another thing is, like, from the outside looking in, the sloth looks like, well, it's just a lazy couch potato. but, actually, there's probably yeah. like you said, a lot of planning, a lot of deep thinking, a lot of strategizing that that goes on, that we don't see from the outside looking in.

Lisa:  absolutely. and the slot has partnerships, with all sorts of other animals that support their ecosystem. and so they don't even though they seem very solo animals, they actually weave a set of strategic partnerships that help them thrive. and sometimes that's not present. like, you can't see that

Sarah2:  mhmm. nobody

Lisa:  else. but, yeah, there's a lot of depth to that choice. and for me, another big turning point was having a significant accident. so i had a surfing accident. or it kinda took me off the road map for three months and, you know, healing journey of one year. that process of having to slow down and start over and rebuild was, you know, tremendously insightful. it was hard. it was super, super difficult and painful and, you know, all of the, challenges that come along with injury and recovery. yet it was super profound for me to rediscover what was most valuable to me. so to reconnect with my values, it was the time when i was rebuilding my business after a big transition, and a super important gift that, you know, i can clearly see. during the process, it was, you know, challenging for sure. and now looking back, i think it was a blessing in disguise.

Sarah2:  mhmm. yeah. yeah. it's just unfortunate that often our body kind of needs to give us this yeah.

Lisa:  wake up call?

Sarah2:  wake up call. yeah. indeed. if we don't hear it ourselves. another thing comes to mind, and you mentioned that you're living in costa rica. from the outside looking in, we have this idea of costa rica being, yeah, you know, a different culture, a kind of more outgoing culture, probably a culture that is not as money and profit and productivity driven as maybe, you know, some of our western cultures. is that the case? and has when you moved to costa rica, has something changed already just in that move for you?

Lisa:  for sure. for sure. so it's a quite a different culture from the united states that i moved from seventeen years ago. so mhmm. it's, well indoctrinated in me, the pura vida lifestyle, you know, living a pure life. for sure, the culture is slower. it's more family oriented. it's, you know, be first and then do second, very opposite of the united states and the life that i had lived before i came to costa rica. you know, there's certainly challenges. the infrastructure, the bureaucracy, i mean, process and operational efficiency is not a strength in costa rica. it's a beautiful small country and the nature is spectacular and it's ever present wherever you are in the country. so yeah, that slowing down to adapt to a very different culture in a different system was, you know, a jolt to my, nervous system for sure. and, you know, it took years, but i'd probably say two or three years later, i i think i kind of wove into the groove. having children and adopting to their schedules and all of that is a great assimilation strategy for moving to a new country. so that was a great asset as well. but yeah. i mean, the things that i appreciate about the slower pace and the higher quality of life and, you know, security and just nature at your doorstep is, you know, well built into my routines. from a daily perspective, i get up and i usually go for a walk. and, you know, i can take three steps out my door and be in beautiful nature, which i appreciate. and, you know, the weather's temperate, so, you know, i can put a t shirt and shorts on and head out anytime of the year. i love that too. but one of the things that i have realized as i've, you know, kinda cultivated my career, because i have clients globally and i travel around the world, is that when i come back home, there's just like a a sigh and a deep, you know, breath that i take that i kinda take it back in, and i miss it. i truly do miss it. one of the ways, recently, just in the last year, i've started doing retreats, for women here in costa rica. i have my second one coming up in september, september twenty eighth to october third. and it's recharge. it's recharge for mindful women. and the idea is how can you pour into yourself as you pour into everybody else in all aspects of your life. because i find we women professionals, especially, extend ourselves and stretch ourselves very thin. and so, i have found on a daily basis how to recharge, but i think a lot of women struggle to do that really well. and so offering a week away to indulge in beautiful nature and feed you your soul, you know, heart, mind, and body is an excursion and experience that is a beautiful thing to offer.

Sarah2:  yeah. i i when people ask me what works in marketing right now, i always say beauty, nature, you know, self care. those are the things that that people crave right now. so so yeah, if you're having something like that to offer is is amazing. and i was just thinking how similar it is with me arriving in sicily, because we have a place in sicily, and it's kind of very similar. you know? it's like it's chaotic in terms of administration and and laws and everything like that. and yet it's such a different lifestyle. like, it all it's all about, like you said, family, friends, good food. that's what matters to people there. right? and then the work come come second. and i remember now we have our own car there, but we used to have a rental car and then arriving at the airport and then having to rent the car. at the beginning, the first few times we went, i was, like, so anxious and nervous because it took them forever to set up this rental car. it was, like, an hour of paperwork and everything was in paper still. like, i'm like, come on. and then eventually i just kind of like laughed at myself. i'm like, oh, look at, look at you, the swiss. who's like, oh, you know, work, work, work. no, you have arrived. this is it. take it slow. right. and it's, yeah, it's interesting that you also can get that experience of just breathing out when you get back home and you're like, i made it home. i can be calm and relaxed now. yeah. another thing that, that i'm thinking of with in relation to costa rica is that, at the last, inner development goals, summit i was, they actually brought costa rica as an example because you guys use the inner development goals on a national level. and that's, like, that's unheard of. right? it's such a huge testimony to what matters even at the government level. so i'm just curious if you, yeah, how that's being visible in costa rica, if i if at all? like, do they talk about it?

Lisa:  absolutely. there's quite a marketing campaign, the essential of costa rica and christina figueres, whom you know from all of that work around idg and just kind of how do we create a better world and how do we protect what we have. i mean, she's been very, very vocal and very visible in the country, but we have, you know, great resources for such a tiny country in the world. and the preservation of that is a utmost priority in the country. there's great focus. there's great resources. there's great knowledge and commitment to in that. so, yes, it's, you know, very important and built into the systemic structure of all of costa rica. so very

Sarah2:  we talk mainly about animals, but in the business like we're human book, i just talk about nature in general and and talk about some of the ways that i've integrated nature into into my business. how you mentioned walks. is there any other ways that you even bring it into client work or or just kinda like how you, yeah, integrate nature and animals and other living beings on this planet into your work?

Lisa:  no. i do. a lot of times when i am meeting with clients in quarterly workshops, we build time in nature into it. it's kind of a way to breathe. it's kind of a way to decompress. it's kind of a way to kind of go deeper from within, and it connects teams powerfully. i mean, greater creativity, greater resourcefulness, greater connection, building vulnerability amongst the team happens so much faster when you're outside than when you're in a conference room or in your, you know, office meeting room. i'm a big advocate of exercise too. and so a lot of times, with my clients on a one on one basis, we'll talk about their routines. like, how do you build movement into, your routine as a way to kind of process, as a way to feed, you know, your soul, as a way to be healthy as well. and a lot of times that involves being outside in nature. i'm a big fan of awe walks, awe. and so i spent a week with doctor doctor doctor keltner. he leads the better services science center at university of berkeley in california. and he has researched awe for, like, thirty years. he has a fascinating book called awe. he's got several books. and it's amazing how there's so many sources. he has, like, eight principles of awe, nature being one of them. but, you know, collective ever essence, like the time favorite too. yeah. i mean, it's such a beautiful thing. and so often when i do retreats with clients, that ability to be disconnected from the workspace, but yet together is that collective ever essence. it just brings out the best in people and, you know, it really fuels creativity and innovation. it's a super powerful force. and i find combining that in nature is spectacular. so

Sarah2:  yeah. especially in a place where, you know, you can always go outside. so why wouldn't you? why wouldn't you use nature as a classroom? yeah.

Lisa:  and it doesn't matter the weather. i mean, i i have clients in all different, atmospheres and climates and, you know, bundle up if it's cold. it doesn't matter. get outside and experience that. it's a a beautiful resource available to us at any moment.

Sarah2:  mhmm. yeah. if you had to give, like, one advice from the sloths to the business owners, entrepreneurs who are listening, what would that be?

Lisa:  yeah. move slower. just move slower. take more in. i love that sloths are super observant. and that's part of their kinda maintaining their, you know, lifestyle and being a survival skill. i think we as humans go too fast, and we build things in. like, busyness is a factor of success. and and i think that's part of the paradigm that you're working on in business like we're human. it's important to me too. how do you take things more slowly and actually more richly connect and generate greater impact? i mean, there's not a correlation for me on generating impact is my passion and my purpose and my work, and there's no correlation with going fast with that. it actually defeats the purpose. and so the slower you go, actually, generally, the better results you can attain. mhmm. yeah. i would say go slower, be more observant, and, you know, really focus in on what's most important.

Sarah2:  yeah. and go deeper with your work as well because you're going slower. yeah.

Lisa:  absolutely. so often when leaders come to me, they wanna scale their businesses super fast, and that's always the desire. and i say, okay. what have you tried before? what's worked? what hasn't worked? and i always say, you know, the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and over again and expecting a different outcome. so let's try a different trajectory. so i spend quite a bit of time with clients in teams because i work with founders and leaders and their leadership teams to kinda build that vulnerability, that deep connection, that trust so that then when they journey together, they can go further, not necessarily faster, but it often happens that it happens faster because they have a very profound, deeply connected and well aligned structure and path to journey together. but that human connection and really building the strong resilient team is always the first step. and it amazes my clients. it it continues to delight me at how powerful a leadership quality that can be to achieving whatever they set out to achieve. and often, while their initial goals are i wanna, you know, hit a bigger number, i wanna hit it sooner, i want to, contribute more financials to the book, they very quickly identify impact goals as well. like, what's the difference in the world i wanna make? and how will the success of my business make the world i live in better? and how do i contribute to that? which is, you know, so rewarding for me.

Sarah2:  yeah. and you basically hold the space to help them slow down. right?

Lisa:  yeah. the guide on the journey indeed. yeah. yeah.

Sarah2:  it's beautiful. wow. thank you so much for for being the sloth and and being the role model as, you know, it again, i think it takes a little bit of courage to say, i don't, there's no shame in being the sloth. i want to be the sloth. i want you to understand the power of being the sloth. and, and that's exactly the role models that we were missing up till now, because, you know, look where it got us. and so, yeah, i applaud you for for being the sloth and sharing what we can learn from these, from nature around us and animals and and everything. so

Lisa:  thank you, sarah.

Sarah2:  please do share where people can find you. sorry.

Lisa:  i was just gonna add one thing. one of the questions i always ask, and this was at the end of my chapter, is what are you courageously willing to say yes to and not know what's on the other side? mhmm. but to do that, you have to courageously say, what am i willing to quit yeah. or say no to to allow the spaciousness to kinda enter into the unknown. to your question, where you can find more information about me is my website, which is w w w dot lisa folger, f o u l g e r, dot com. yep. and i've got information on the verdesana costa rica retreat and all the different offerings i do around scaling your mindset, to scaling your leadership, to scaling your team, and ultimately scaling your business.

Sarah2:  wonderful. i love how you combine scaling with such a mindfulness mindful approach and slow approach. right? because it to me, it's a perfect example of understanding what people want and then giving them what they need. and so what they want is to scale and fast and hustle. and then you're like, wait a minute. yeah. we're gonna get to what you want, but we're gonna do it in a slightly different way. so, yeah, i love that. love that. and i also look forward to the to the next session at the expo and continue our animal journey. so excited for that. thank

Lisa:  you. we're excited as well. and i think we'll even expand beyond animals, into nature. but, yeah, there's a lot to explore around being and a fascinating topic to explore.

Sarah2:  yeah. i'm actually just off to a trip to egypt and, you know, find out what we can learn from ancient civilizations, whether they were human or not human, but just kind of like tapping into the ancient wisdom wisdom as well. so

Lisa:  i'll report back. yes. enjoy fully. that sounds fascinating.

Sarah2:  thank you.

Sarah3:  i hope you got some great value and inspiration from listening to this episode. find out more about lisa and her work at wwwlisafolger.com. and if you're looking for others who think like you, then why not join us in the humane marketing circle? lisa is an active member in our community as well. find out more at humane.marketing/circle. and you'll find the show notes of this episode at humane.marketing/hm20seven. and on this beautiful page, you'll also find a series of free offers, the humane business manifesto, as well as my two books, marketing like we're human and selling like we're human. and soon, my third book, business like we're human. thanks so much for listening and being part of a generation of marketers who cares for yourself, your clients, and the planet. we are change makers before we are marketers, so go be the change you want to see in the world. speak soon.

In this episode of the Humane Marketing Podcast, I'm joined by Bev Feldman who shares her refreshing perspective on email marketing rooted in empathy rather than manipulation.

Together we explore how conscious entrepreneurs can build authentic connections through their email communications by prioritizing consent, transparency, and genuine value. Bev reveals her ALIGN framework that transforms traditional email marketing into a trust-building process, helping you connect meaningfully with your audience without resorting to aggressive sales tactics.

Whether you're struggling with low engagement or feeling uncomfortable with conventional marketing approaches, this conversation offers practical strategies to make your email marketing more human, ethical, and ultimately more effective.

Discover how respecting your subscribers' agency and meeting them where they are can create stronger relationships and better business outcomes.

In our time together, we talked about:

• The importance of consent in email marketing and not adding people to lists without permission
• How Substack functions as both a newsletter platform and community
• Best practices for email marketing with empathy, including the contrast with typical sales funnel approaches
• What engagement really means in email marketing (beyond just open rates)
• Using storytelling to build genuine connections through email
• Common mistakes people make with email marketing tools
• Finding the balance between automation and personalization in email marketing
• The upcoming workshop on April 2nd and Beth's ALIGN framework for email marketing

Watch this episode on YouTube

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Speaker 0: hello, humane marketers. welcome back to the humane marketing podcast, the place to be for the generation that cares. this is a show where we talk about running your business in a way that feels good to you, is aligned with your values, and also resonates with today's conscious customers because it's humane, ethical, and non pushy. i'm sarah zaneckroce, your hippie turned conscious business coach for quietly rebellious entrepreneurs and change makers. mama bear of the humane marketing circle and renegade author of marketing like we're human, selling like we're human, and soon also my third book, business like we're human. if after listening to the show for a while, you're ready to move on to the next level and start implementing and would welcome a community of like minded quietly rebellious entrepreneurs who discuss with transparency what works and what doesn't work in business, then we'd love to welcome you in our humane marketing circle. if you're picturing your typical facebook group, let me paint a new picture for you. this is a closed community of like minded entrepreneurs from all over the world who come together in two meet ups per month to hold each other accountable and build their business in a conscious and sustainable way. we all share with transparency and vulnerability what works and what doesn't work in our business so that you can figure out what works for you instead of keep throwing spaghetti on the wall and seeing what sticks. find out more at humane dot marketing forward slash circle. twice per year, i host my signature program, the marketing like we're human, aka the client resonator program live. in a deep dive into the seven p's of the humane marketing mandala, you will learn to market from within. this program is for you if you want and need to get more clients, but want to share your message in an ethical and humane way. if you want to make a difference with your work. if you are just starting out, or if you have been in business for a while, but haven't really found the marketing activities that work for you. or also, if you are pivoting your business from business as usual to your life's work and want to radically change the way you get clients. find out more at humane dot marketing forward slash program. and finally, if you prefer one on one support from me, my humane business coaching could be just what you need, whether it's for your marketing, sales, general business building, or help with your big idea like writing a book. i'd love to share my brain and my heart with you together with my almost twenty years business experience and help you grow a sustainable business that is joyful and sustainable. if you love this podcast, wait until i show you my mama bear qualities as my one on one client. find out more at humane dot marketing forward slash coaching. welcome back, friends. today's conversation fits under the p of promotion of the humane marketing mandala. if you're a regular here, you know that i'm organizing the conversations around the seven p's of the humane marketing mandala. and if you're new here and are listening for the first time, you probably don't know what i'm talking about, but you can download your one page marketing plan with the humane marketing version of the seven p's of marketing at humane dot marketing forward slash one page. that's the number one and the word page and for the non native english native english speakers, humane is humane with an e at the end. so human and an e at the end. this comes with seven email prompts to really help you reflect on these different piece for your business. so it's a self reflective exercise and not just a seven step guide to follow. i'm talking to beth feldman today, whose values on email marketing are very much aligned with our humane movement. beth is a kit, formerly convertkit consultant and email marketing strategist at your personal tech fairy. her approach to email marketing is grounded in consent, human connection, and giving subscribers agency while also keeping things streamlined and simplified. though much of her time is spent in the digital world, bev's an an analog girl at heart, preferring reading physical books over ebooks, doing jigsaw puzzles, and meeting in person with friends and fellow business owners. in our time together, we talked about the importance of con consent in email marketing and not adding people to lists without permission, how substack functions as both a newsletter platform and community, best practices for email marketing with empathy, including the contrast with typical sales funnel approaches, what engagement really means in email marketing beyond just opening rates, using storytelling to build genuine connections through email, common mistakes people make with email marketing tools, finding the balance between automation and personalization in email. and then, uh, beth also gives us a sneak preview to the upcoming workshop on april second and shares her aligned framework for email marketing. so if after listening to this episode, you'd like to join us for the live collab workshop and work on your welcoming sequence and more, then please join us in our community with a small donation. you'll find all the details at humane dot marketing forward slash workshop. it takes place on april second, five pm central european time, and that's eleven am eastern time in the us. alright. let's dive in. beth, it's good to talk to you. welcome to the humane marketing podcast. thank you, sarah. it's good to have you here. email marketing with empathy. uh, i think that's your spiel. right?

Speaker 1: yes. very much so.

Speaker 0: um, on your website, i'm gonna start with, uh, something i found on your website. you say my approach is rooted in consent, human connection, and strategies that align with your values. mhmm. tell us more about that.

Speaker 1: yeah. so and i think i think you've kind of alluded to how you've changed your marketing over the years, but i for me, it's been very similar that i think we're those of us who've been in this online business space for a while are very much have been bombarded with a lot of messaging on, quote, unquote, the right way to market our businesses. and i know for myself, i've tried a whole bunch of strategies that, you know, i did because they, quote, unquote, worked, but they didn't ever fully sit right with me. and i think a lot of times the what we hear is a very much a one size fits all approach to marketing, but what works for one business model might not work for another business model. similarly, you can have two businesses that are technically the same business model and once a strategy that works for one person will not work or for one business will not work for another for another. so that's really much about where i kind of bring in my approach that it's looking at, does something sit right with me? and if not, then maybe you should be evaluated. and think about, like, not so much does this sit right with me, but if i'm on the receiving end of this strategy, how would i feel? and if you knew know that you it wouldn't sit right with you, probably not a good strategy to use. uh, as a and then similarly or kinda not similarly, but going back going back to the other one, consent, that, you know, being here in the us, we have kind of some more lax rules around privacy and consent. and, technically, you can add people to your email list whether or not they have consented. and i think many of us have been on the receiving end of receiving emails that we did not ask for. so my approach is, you know, very much, did people ask to be on be added to your email list? it will not work with people who purchased the email list. that's just it's it's not good for a whole bunch of reasons. so it's not gonna help with your email showing up in people's inboxes if you're you adding people who didn't ask to be there. so it's just kind of this weird strategy that i think some people still use even though i really don't believe it works because people don't we're all bombarded with emails, and we don't wanna receive things that we didn't sign up for.

Speaker 0: yeah. yeah. it that's it it it always surprises me when i'm, you know, talking to someone, like, on linkedin, for example. and, yeah, we have a good exchange in the e in the linkedin messages. and then sure enough, like, two days later, i received their newsletter. mhmm. and i'm like, well, how do i say this in a kind way? but just because we talked, it doesn't mean that i wanna receive your your newsletter. exactly. and yet some people still believe that that's how it works. yeah.

Speaker 1: yeah. exactly. i actually had something similar happen where i was talking to someone and they messaged me and they said, oh, i'm doing this workshop. would you like the information? i'm like, sure. send it over. and they're like, okay. i i added your your email to my list. and i was like, excuse me. that's not what i said. i said, send me the information, not add me to your email list.

Speaker 0: yeah.

Speaker 1: and they also use an email that i very intentionally an email address i very intentionally don't use to sign up for for for email list. and so they kind of also took away my own agency over deciding, like, should do i wanna sign up for it? which email address do i wanna use to sign up for it? so yeah. gonna feel good. and i do a lot

Speaker 0: of times, it's well intentioned because they just want to, you know, share their good work, and i'm sure they're doing good work.

Speaker 1: but yes.

Speaker 0: yeah. there's some kind of, like, rules to to respect and consent is is pretty much the first one. right?

Speaker 1: exactly. and you can always still invite someone. say, oh, you know, in this situation, you know, if you connected with someone and i've done this where i've invited people. i've been given a little, you know, like, you know, if you like this conversation and you like what i share, you might be interested in receiving my newsletter. here's what it's about and here's the link to sign up. and i've had lots of people, you know, i've had people say say, no thanks, i'm all set. i'm like, great. i've had other people thank me. they're like, oh, thank you so much. i just signed up. mhmm.

Speaker 0: and i

Speaker 1: think it feels good on both ends, even getting that note. like it knowing that people had that ability to decide options. both.

Speaker 0: yeah. yeah. exactly. yeah. yeah. we recently talked about substack in one of my programs, and, uh, people asked me about it because they heard good things. and i shared that i really like the idea of having an a newsletter mixed with a community, and then always also the option to sign up. but you don't have to because you can read the the content without having to sign up. so that combination, i think they really figured something out there that that it's not every not everything is locked behind this email wall, and and it just really feels like a good platform. are you on substack?

Speaker 1: i am not on substack. not mostly because i'm so active on doing my newsletter on kit, formerly convertkit, that i didn't i it just felt like i would be

Speaker 0: dividing it to my things. yeah.

Speaker 1: but i have seen people do that well where they have both a substack newsletter substack newsletter and then an email marketing software newsletter because i think it is a is an important distinction to make an important distinction to make. that substack is intended to be a newsletter. so it's really for things more like thought leadership. and there's it's fuzzy because it's not really a promotional platform even from my doing my research on this because i'm asked so often, substack versus kit, that it actually goes against their terms of services to be used exclusively right. to promote your your products and services. it's not an email marketing software. but i have seen people kind of use it in both ways. um, i've also seen people who use an email marketing software for their business and use substack. they'll mention what it is they do, but they use it more for something that's maybe related, but not quite what they do for their business.

Speaker 0: yeah. i like that. the combination of both because to me, substack is also more community building. mhmm. because there's the option to comment, and then, you know, there can be a conversation started where on email, well, if people do hit reply, it's still one on one. it's still yes. so it's it's not community based. so exactly. yeah. yeah. that makes a lot of sense. alright. so talk to us a little bit about best best practices when it comes to email marketing and using empathy. and maybe you can start with the anti, uh, you know, dough or the anti hero, uh, example of what it's like, like the typical funnel, of course.

Speaker 1: yes. oh my gosh. i have such a clear example of this that happened just a few weeks ago. i was listening to someone's summit and someone, one of the participants was had something that they were giving away. and i said, you know what? i'll i'll sign up for their freebie. and immediately, i was pulled right into this very intense sales funnel where i was getting with i think in the five days i lasted on their list, i'd received, like, seventy emails. i didn't count exactly, but it was some days i did notice i was getting two emails, and i just signed up. and my options at this point were to delete or just delete them because i wasn't interested in what they were selling at that time. and if i was just to full on delete those emails, it's not good for the business owner. so when you think about email marketing, you want people to read and engage with your emails, and people not opening and just deleting your emails are one of the worst things that for a business owner because it can impact your deliverability or your email you know, the ability of your emails to show up in in people's inboxes. so, anyway, my options were to delete them to really just to delete them or unsubscribe. and, ultimately, i went with unsubscribe because i was like, this is this is way too much. now, kind of the opposite of that, the more empathy driven version of it, and it's something that i practice and i put in i will work with my clients to do is to to give people the option a couple things. to really set some clear expectations of here's how many emails you're gonna receive from me about x thing over the however many of days, and then you can you'll expect to hear from me on whatever. even if they said, oh, you know, i email every day. at least gives me some indication. i don't know. the other thing is giving people the option to opt out of certain things. so if this person had said to me, you know, i'm selling selling you know, over the next week, you're gonna receive a bunch of a number of emails about this particular offer, and here's why i think it will help you. if you don't wanna receive those emails right now but wanna stay on my regular email list, you know, my regular weekly newsletter or whatever, click here, and i'll do that. and that would have felt like that would have given me some control. it would have acknowledged that just because i signed up for this free thing doesn't mean i wasn't that it would it would have acknowledged that just because i signed up for this free thing didn't mean in that moment i was ready to buy the bigger thing. but it still kinda left the would have left the doors open for me to say, well, maybe down the line. and that's really how i approach email marketing that just because in this moment in time time you are selling something doesn't mean the person on the receiving end is is a good time for them or they wanna hear about it. and giving people the option to opt out of things versus just getting every single thing you send is really the way to lead with empathy. and it it's leaves people on your email list feeling good, and it also helps you as the business owner, again, to make sure you're just sending the emails to people who want to hear hear from you.

Speaker 0: yeah. yeah. and and just the idea of selling in that welcoming sequence is kinda strange to me to begin with. like yeah. right?

Speaker 1: yeah. it felt it felt strange to me. and and maybe this works for that person, and that's why they do it. but i felt as the on the receiving end, a little shell shocked, i guess. i was like, what is happening?

Speaker 0: well, it's a typical funnel approach. it's like, oh, i give you this free thing, then you want this, you know, low cost item under twenty bucks, and then i had got you hooked, and then you're gonna actually. so so that's the typical way that we're taught to yeah. set up a funnel. right?

Speaker 1: oh, yeah. and just to be clear, you know, i did this too. like, this is how i was taught. i was like, okay, this is what i should be doing. and i had for my former business, i had a jewelry business and i did this. and i didn't actually make that many sales from it, quite honestly. and it required at one point, i was you know, i paid for this extra extra technology that was just costing me more money than i was making. and then i was like, well, i can do it without paying for it, but then i manually had to go and update things and lead pages every week. and i was like, why am i doing this? this is such a waste of my time and money. and i'd rather just give people information, give them the option to always you know, here's that thing. like, i can still link to it. yeah. the things that they can buy. but i was like, in retrospect, i'm like, what? what was i doing? but i think i needed to learn those lessons

Speaker 0: mhmm.

Speaker 1: so that i could do what i do now so much better.

Speaker 0: right. yeah. no. i totally hear you. like, all the retargeting strategies that we were learning, if they click this, then now sell them this and yep. all of that. and it might work for an ecommerce site, probably still works. but for something like us, where we are actually selling trust and human connection, that is just, like, the opposite of what should be happening in these emails. right? it should be trust building and not trust yeah. take a great trust, really. that's what it does. i'm sure that's how you felt with with these the the series of bombarding emails, wanting to buy. yeah. yeah. i

Speaker 1: was like, this is not what i signed up for.

Speaker 0: yeah.

Speaker 1: wow. yeah. it was a a very fast a very fast unsubscribe.

Speaker 0: right. you talked about engagement. right? in the end, that's the ultimate goal always. and it's always like, it's this big word that we often use also on social media. in the end, like, what does that mean in a with an email list? you mentioned opening rates and what else?

Speaker 1: yeah. so so i will say that you have to kind of take open rates with a grain of salt. they're not very accurate, and this is true across all email marketing all email marketing softwares just because of how things like apple has set things up, which which, you know, from a marketing perspective is frustrating, but from a, you know, consumer privacy perspective, i totally respect why they do that. so it's harder to i wouldn't necessarily use open rates as a good as an engagement marker unless it's in kind of context. so, yeah, opening you know, looking to see if people are opening your emails, first step. better step are people clicking on your emails. and, again, that can be a little tricky to track because some email provider inbox providers will kind of use these bots to pre click things, i think, as a way to make sure that they're not spam. so sometimes click through rates are also not very accurate. but things like replies, you can't fake it. well, i guess you could fake a reply with ai nowadays, but chances are we're not getting too many ai replies at at least this point in time. so if people are replying to your emails, that's a really great indication of engagement. kits added a new feature called polls, and i don't you know, i think different email marketing softwares have different things. but polls, uh, it's like as it sounds. you give people you set up a poll, you ask a question, and people have to click on an answer. but because they have to actually click and then it takes them to a page where they have to confirm, it actually is more accurate because people have to take you know, a bot's not gonna be able to click it twice.

Speaker 0: right.

Speaker 1: so, um, and i think and, obviously, if you see people purchasing things, but recognize that for, you know, a few things that depending on how your business is set up, you're not gonna be able to necessarily be able to track a click leading to a purchase. um,

Speaker 0: or depending on the size of the purchase as well purchase as well.

Speaker 1: yeah. exactly.

Speaker 0: if it's a five dollar purchase, yeah, then probably that came from the email. but if it's a two thousand dollar course, well, that lead time is much longer. right? so

Speaker 1: exactly. exactly. and then, you know, it's if you don't so just because i'll add you don't see people necessarily replying to your emails, especially, you know, if you're at full on asking for replies, it doesn't mean that people aren't engaging with your emails. i think people i've had people actually over outside of my emails just kinda come up in conversation. they'll be like, oh my gosh. i loved your email about x y z, or i love reading your emails. i read every single one. and and it's not like they and it's not like they reply to my emails and tell me that. so sometimes you don't even know, which is, you know, can be kind of the frustration.

Speaker 0: because because our subscribers are smart. right? they're they're they're savvy. they know that this email goes out to a group of yeah. however many subscribers. so it almost feels a bit awkward, i think, to people to hit reply to to to an email, uh, that they know goes out to a large group. so i think that's why people don't necessarily always engage because, yeah, they'd rather tell you in person or yeah. in another email or or on social media or something like that.

Speaker 1: yeah. can i actually put give a fun engagement? i don't wanna call it a trick, but a a thing you can try if you're feeling frustrated that you're not getting replies to your emails is asking people to reply with a a specific word. mhmm. because i can really open up the door for conversations. i'm actually i am real i'm involved with a local grassroots environmental nonprofit, and i've been doing a lot of the emails. and we hadn't emailed in, like, a year to our group or, actually, we sent an email in the fall, but it basically had been a long time. but i had this idea for reading this book called climate action for busy people. so i didn't wanna plan the whole thing until i knew there was gonna be people who are interested. so i, you know, used a storytelling email storytelling email, and i said, you know, i'm thinking about doing this book club to bring us all together. if you're interested, just reply with the word book club. and within twenty four hours, i think i got seven or eight replies. and this is from a list of people who, like, they haven't really heard from us very much. but i think giving people something a little bit easier to do can be really powerful and a great way to start a conversation.

Speaker 0: i love that. that that is yeah. that is very smart because you otherwise, you have to think about what am i gonna say. yeah. especially my subscribers, they're kinda like on the introverted side and, you know, it's like it takes us a good half hour to write an email. and so, yeah, just one word, and it's fast and and easy, and yet it can start a conversation. i love it.

Speaker 1: yeah. and sometimes, honestly, even if you ask for a word or, like, give people give a poll, but, like, ask them to reply and just give them, like, choose a if you feel this way, b this way. sometimes you'll actually get more than just that. i've had people reply with to a poll with, like, a, and then they'll go on and write a longer explanation. i think mhmm. making it easy for people so we don't have to get bogged down in the like, these big introspective questions that can feel like a lot to reply to, but make it you know, if you give peep make it a lot simpler for people, again, leading with empathy, recognizing how often we see something in our inbox that feels like, oh, this is really interesting. let me think about it. and then you just forget about it. and not intentionally. yeah. so much going on in

Speaker 0: our lives. you mentioned storytelling, so i assume that's another way to, you know, to build this genuine connection via email. so not not actually make it sound sound like email marketing yeah. which it sounds like you and me both, we kind of, you know, learned that way. and and and now it's like, well, actually, we don't wanna make it sound like anybody else. we just wanna make it sound like ourselves. right? oh, absolutely. storytelling is is the best technique there. yeah.

Speaker 1: yeah. exactly. and you know what? i've had people say who replied to my emails or have had conversations with this about, and they're like, well, you know, i love how you shared that. i wouldn't feel comfortable necessarily sharing something like that. and that's fine. i think it's only sharing what you feel comfortable sharing about your about your life. like, i share a fair amount about being a mom because it very much impacts everything about my life because i've got two young kids, um, but i never show pictures of them. so for me, that's kind of that boundary i set for myself. yeah. so i feel fine sharing some and i don't share private information about them. i'll you know, i might talk about doing a jigsaw puzzle with my seven year old.

Speaker 0: right. yeah. but, you know, we feel that's an important, yeah, thing to state because there was this tendency to use vulnerability as a sales technique. right? so that's definitely not what we're advocating. it's like no. you know, just, yeah, share what feels comfortable sharing. and also, it still has to be somehow related to, you know, the rest of your email, probably the rest of your yeah. just who you are, but not all of a sudden bring up, like, childhood trauma if it's not at all related because you can overwhelm people with too much too much vulnerability. yeah. and you don't want that either.

Speaker 1: exactly. yeah. and i think well, i think it's okay, you know, to be vulnerable. but, again, like, what feels right feels right to you and maybe also giving people kind of a heads up if you feel like you're gonna be sharing something that could be very emotionally triggering for someone.

Speaker 0: yeah. yeah. so in a way, it sounds like we need to find this balance between automation because that's clearly what we're doing. we're using a tool to automate, and yet adding this personal touch to to our emails and to the way we communicate. right?

Speaker 1: yeah. yeah. exactly. and i i'd argue kind of going back to what i said earlier that that automation piece. so it's not kind of meeting people where they're at acknowledging now might not be the right time for you. now you might right now you might not wanna receive these emails about this thing, this promotion. at the end of december, i decided to keep going with my newsletter, but i gave people the option to stop hearing from me during that holiday period and and resume receiving my newsletter in january. um, i give people the option to opt out of my welcome sequence.

Speaker 0: so this is kind of how i'm using automation as

Speaker 1: a tool sequence. so this is kind

Speaker 0: of how i'm using

Speaker 1: automation as a tool to meet people where they're at. instead of so almost giving them more agency to hear less instead of hearing more from me.

Speaker 0: yeah.

Speaker 1: or but similarly, if they are also giving people the option to express interest in things and using automation as a tool that way

Speaker 0: as well as well. yeah. i like that. the other thing that i liked when i was talking to ellie trier, she's she's on the spectrum, so she's neurodivergent, and she shared something that really resonated with me. she, uh, and it has to do with the email personalization, you know, how we have this tool that lets you use the first name. mhmm. and she is like, i don't understand how neuro normal people think that's normal, that i'm just addressing you as dear sarah or dear bev, where i know for a fact that this email goes out to a lot of people. so to her, that just always feels really strange to to kind of trick her that, oh, it feels like we're just talking the two of us. and i was like, yeah. that makes a lot of sense. so some of my emails, i just started saying, dear ones, or, you know, like, addressing the fact that it's go that i know that it's going out to to the community and not just one on one. yeah. and just, like, thought that fascinating. it's like, yeah. we just all bought into this idea that we use these email personalizations, but to her, that was, like, really bizarre.

Speaker 1: yeah. that is such an interesting point. i wonder if i mean, i hear the the acknowledgment of you know, it feels weird when you get that you know, it's not addressed to you personally. or rather, it is addressed to you, but, you know, it goes out to a bunch of people. but from that other perspective, just how weird that is.

Speaker 0: mhmm.

Speaker 1: and so i'm glad you brought that up. and, also, you think about sometimes people make errors when they're putting their name in, so maybe they they're like they miss they're like they misspelled their own name or they accidentally write it in all caps. and then it looks like you're shouting their name.

Speaker 0: your last name.

Speaker 1: at a time. yeah. so i i could definitely see the argument for just taking out that personalization feature altogether and do, like you said, you know, big ones or dear friend or whatever, you know, whatever fits with yeah.

Speaker 0: yeah. what you talking about mistakes, what what other mistakes do people people commonly make with these tools?

Speaker 1: oh, well, actually, speaking of the personalization feature, sometimes, for whatever reason, people don't get, you know, have their names inputted into when you sign up for someone's email list email list. so it'll say you'll get emails that say, dear, space, comma. so clearly, there's intended to be a name there, but because there's no name field, it just shows up as this this space. so i've been on the receiving end of that and i just find it very, like, it makes me chuckle a

Speaker 0: little bit.

Speaker 1: because i know i've done that too. right. um, forgetting to update the subject line, which we've all done. so you get you send an email and it goes, you know, new broadcast. that's the subject line. right. or or were you meant to update the the whatever your email marketing software uses to pull in the name and it says so then you get an email that says, dear in, like, brackets, first name goes here.

Speaker 0: yes. exactly. yeah.

Speaker 1: i and these things i always like. those i'm just like, oh, they made a tech error. i know i make tech errors.

Speaker 0: so yeah. those are actually very forgivable. right? it's more the the strategy ones where yeah. like, the the example you you shared first is, like, the overwhelm and the manipulation. those those are the bigger i'm missing. yeah. and then often it's not their fault. it's just that they're following the wrong marketing person. they should follow you instead.

Speaker 1: yeah. and this is why i always recommend and this actually goes into what we'll be talking about in the workshop is that i always recommend signing up for your own newsletter, freebie, lead magnet, whatever you wanna call it. i hate the act i actually personally do not like the word lead magnet because i think it dehumanizes this process if, you know yeah. i don't like to think of people on my email list as leads, and i'm magnetizing them on. like, they're people don't like it. yeah. actually, i don't like a lot of marketing jargon. but i always recommend signing up for your your your opt ins, your your freebies, and seeing what it's like so you because i think we there's so many moving parts that go into it that i think when you're done, you're, like, just so relieved. you're like, oh, i got that thing out there. but it's so important to test it up, test it out as someone going through that process who doesn't know you yet and seeing what happens because here's where you'll you'll uncover some some errors you made or you might realize like, oh, shoot. someone signs up for my thing and then immediately somehow i messed it up and now they got, like, three emails all at once, or i got three emails all at once. so that's why it's really important to really

Speaker 0: yeah.

Speaker 1: take the time to check it all out.

Speaker 0: and probably not just once, but, like, once a year because yeah. and i think that will be the benefit of go going through your workshop for all of us going back to, yeah, signing up to to our sequence again. i yeah. i have to say, i think probably last time i checked was last year to just go through all my emails again because i i don't just have, you know, seven. i have a whole bunch because then i added some other ones. and but, yeah, some of the stuff's probably outdated or links don't work. so, yeah, you didn't wanna oh, yeah. check them regularly. yeah. yeah. i

Speaker 1: and i know i have to i really need to clean up the back end of mine so bad. i just you know, it's kind of a tedious process. but i think if i were to do it all over again, i'd probably just, like, make it a lot simpler. at one point, i tried to make it super complex, and i was like, this is my selling point. it's like to make these really complex automations. and i'm like, no. people want something simple and straightforward. and i'm honestly of the opinion, the simpler you can make it, the better. yeah. some of these email marketing softwares can let you do really fancy things with them. but then the more the, you know, the fancier and more complicated you make it, the more likely it it is for something to get messed up or to break if you add something new in or take something away.

Speaker 0: i agree. and it just needs to be simple unless, again, you're running an e running an ecommerce site or or something like that. but yeah. a lot of i don't know about your clients, but a lot of listeners and my clients are coaches, consultants, and and, you know, they just want something that works, but it doesn't have to be this complicated funnel, and it shouldn't feel like a funnel anyway. it should just yeah. feel like a trust building sequence. exactly. yeah.

Speaker 1: but, again, the whole the term funnel, another one of those words. i'm like, why? i just can't when i think of it, i just end up imagining, like, cattle mhmm. like, going down the slaughter. like, they're just being fed in this one direction, and you're like

Speaker 0: horrible. yeah. yeah. movie is horrible. yeah. tell us more about the the workshop that we have coming up on april second.

Speaker 1: yeah. so it's based on what i call the align framework. so align is an acronym, and it's really about the process that to look through when someone new signs up for your email list. so the first step is affirm consent. so we right off the bat, we're we're starting with consent. and so we're looking at things like, the, you know, do you link to your privacy statement? it's amazing to me how many people don't real don't have a privacy statement, which i think i imagine in europe, you're probably required. i think even in the us, you're supposed to have one.

Speaker 0: or

Speaker 1: at least certain states require it. so link into your privacy statement. if you're giving away a freebie, giving people the option to receive that freebie without being added to your to your email list. and this is particularly important if from and i'll put this little disclaimer out there that i'm not a lawyer, so don't take this as legal advice. but, you know, with gdpr, you have to be extra careful with that. and from my understanding of it, people have to be able to receive that thing, that freebie without being added to your email list. um, and then so that's, you know, thinking through these steps. and what's nice about this framework is it's tech agnostic. it's things that we should all be doing regardless of which email marketing software we use. and then from there, um, oh my gosh, i realized i like forgotten what the actual acronym stands for, but i'll just, like, go through the process because i think that's easier that we're looking at things like, oh, the second one is learn from questions. so your your opt in form can be a great opportunity to learn a little bit more about the people coming onto your email list and not in a, like, a creepy, stacker ish way, but really about thinking about it through that lens of empathy and how to make sure you're giving people the information that they actually need. so, for example, i ask when people sign up for my email list, which email marketing software do you use? and if people say nothing, i actually send them a different welcome sequence because a lot of what i talk about is not gonna it's gonna be kind of a little too high level. mhmm. so it it kind of helps them think through, for example, do you actually need a newsletter for your business? um, that one i actually invite people to reply and i'm realizing as i'm talking this through, i'm like, i don't think anyone's replying to that email. so maybe it's time to revisit that welcome sequence.

Speaker 0: right. and and just ask a question with a one word answer. i'm sure that one will work better. yeah. yeah.

Speaker 1: um, and then the other steps are thinking through, um, you know, what ex oh, what expectations are you setting for people. so, you know, if someone signs up for your email list, making sure that they know what to do next. like, they should you know, inviting people or recommending that people go to your their inbox and check for this email and telling them, you know, what is the subject line of that email and also thanking them. and then in that first email, really setting some expectations. like, you're gonna receive this many emails from me over this many days, or i send an email out, like, at this frequency. so you want people to know right off the bat, the bat, especially if you do have some sort of nurturing welcome sequence when people first sign up that's at a more frequent cadence than what you normally sent. yeah. because especially if you're marketing to to consumers, they don't know how this all works necessarily. and if you sign up for someone's email list and you're suddenly getting an email a day, you're like, well, this isn't what i signed up for. but if people know right off the bat, you'll get an email a day. and then from after that, you'll hear from me about once a week. you know, it's in recognizing people meaning

Speaker 0: people transparency. right?

Speaker 1: yes. yeah. it's i'm all about how can we be as transparent as possible through this process. because i think a lot of times in marketing, we've almost been taught with this whole life system is that you don't wanna be transparent. mhmm. would you

Speaker 0: have to be sneaky? you know? yeah.

Speaker 1: which is like, why if you need to be sneaky to sells sell something, i feel like that should send us be sending off some little warning signals there.

Speaker 0: yeah. and and it can't it can't attract the right clients. right? if yeah. if from the get go, they they buy into something sneaky, that yeah. it just can't be a good thing. no. yeah. yeah. exactly. and then

Speaker 1: the last step is nurturing. so i do recommend that most people have some sort of welcome sequence. i think there are some instances where it does you know, you might not. and this is, again, where it goes into, you know, recognizing that there is no one size fits all approach to any of this. so even though for most people, i'm gonna recommend you should have some sort of welcome sequence sequence. if you are, for example, marketing to, like like, presidents and corporations or, like, high you know, c what we call in the us, c suite executives, a welcome sequence would probably be a little odd. yeah. so i wouldn't necessarily recommend it to them. right. but but for the vast majority of us, i think it can be beneficial to have something to at least welcome people into your space.

Speaker 0: yeah. amazing. i can't wait for further yeah. rolling back our sleeves and actually getting getting to work and having you guide us. so yeah. wonderful. yeah. that workshop is on april second. and if you wanna sign up and join us in the humane marketing circle, that's at humane dot marketing forward slash workshop. we just ask for a little donation to join us in the community, and, uh, yeah, bev will be there with us live. so exciting. why don't you share also, bev, where people can find you if they want to find out more about your work and maybe see you walk your talk by signing up to your yeah. rep.

Speaker 1: yeah. so the best way i recommend is to go to your personal tech personal tech fairy dot com forward slash newsletter. and there's where i talk a little bit more about my approach to email marketing. and you can see what i just talked about, how you can sign up for my email list. and there's, like, gonna be that question i just i just mentioned. so and you'll you can kinda see how it plays out depending on what you choose. because i will say that, you know, if you choose kit versus a different email marketing software versus nothing, you'll you actually get slightly different emails sent to your inbox.

Speaker 0: yeah. yeah. wonderful. well, i look forward to our collaboration and, uh likewise. thanks so much for being on the show today.

Speaker 1: well, thank you for having me, sarah.

Speaker 0: i hope you got some great value from listening to this episode. as always, find out more about bev and sign up for her newsletter to see her walker talk at your personal tech fairy dot com forward slash newsletter. and if you're looking for others who think like you, then why not join us in the humane marketing circle? you can find out more at humane dot marketing forward slash circle to join the community, or just join us for this workshop with bev at humane dot marketing forward slash workshop. you find the show notes of this episode at humane dot marketing forward slash h m two zero six, um two zero six. and on this beautiful page, you'll also find a series of free offers such as the humane business manifesto, as well as my two books, marketing like we're human and selling like we're human, and soon also my third book, business like we're human. thanks so much for listening and being part of a generation of marketers who cares for yourself, your clients, and the planet. we are change makers before we are marketers. so please go be the change you want to see in the world. speak

Speaker 1: soon.