The Humane Marketing Show. A podcast for a generation of marketers who care.

In this episode of the Humane Marketing podcast, I'm joined by Myriam Martinez to explore the transformative power of creativity in business. We dive into how art and creative expression help us move beyond overthinking, cultivate self-trust, and create spaciousness in our work.

Myriam shares how partnering with creativity can bring more clarity, embodiment, and authenticity to both business and life. We also discuss the "Wild Woman" archetype, reframing marketing as self-expression, and the role of right-brain thinking in shaping a more humane, sustainable future.

If you're a conscious entrepreneur looking to infuse more flow, intuition, and artistry into your business, this episode is for you!

In this episode, talked about:

• How art and creativity serve as partners in self-expression and emotional well-being.
• The connection between embodiment and artistic expression.
• How engaging with creativity helps shift from overthinking to a more relaxed state.
• The parallels between childhood creativity and freeing our thinking as adults.
• The importance of spaciousness in business and how creativity fits into that.
• Using artistic expression as a tool for healing, self-discovery, and business clarity.
• How to reframe marketing as an expression of self rather than a task.
• The "Wild Woman" archetype and its connection to creativity and self-trust.
• The role of right-brain thinking in shaping a more humane, sustainable future.
• Practical ways to start incorporating creativity into daily life and business.

 

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Speaker 0:  hey, miriam. so good to hang out with you on the podcast. first time. yay. i'm

Speaker 1:  so happy to be here, sarah.

Speaker 0:  we made it happen, finally. yeah.

Speaker 1:  yes.

Speaker 0:  yeah. really looking forward to talking about partnering with creativity. that's what i called this episode. uh, it's the p of partnership. and, yeah, let's talk about partnering with creativity. i think, you know, you are the best person to dive into this topic, and we just kind of talked a little bit before hitting record it. this how much creativity and art brings us, especially in the times that we're living right now.

Speaker 1:  right.

Speaker 0:  so let's start there. how how do you feel about art, and what do you see with your clients? uh, what what it does for them?

Speaker 1:  well, we were talking a little bit before coming on about the state of of the world, so to speak. right? um, and i mentioned that art making for me especially has been such a resource. right?

Speaker 0:  right.

Speaker 1:  and the way that i see creativity as a partner, right, and as a support system is that it allows you to express things that you might not either be totally aware need to be expressed. right? mhmm. or that may be hard to express on a verbal level. so it helps you access things that, you know, you may not have any connection to. and once it's on the art piece, then that's when the insight comes or the awareness comes or, you know, new information comes. and often, you experience a lot of relief and release at the same time

Speaker 0:  yeah.

Speaker 1:  depending on the kind of art making that you're you're into.

Speaker 0:  so it's kind of the subconscious coming into, yeah, the paper or the terracotta or whatever, the papier mache, whatever you're using. uh, it kind of expresses itself in that form. is that what you're saying?

Speaker 1:  yes. exactly. exactly. and, you know, for for me and the work that i do, i what i notice with clients is and in myself, you know, i think it's part of the human condition, so to speak, is that we get in our heads a lot. you know, we do a lot of thinking.

Speaker 0:  say that again.

Speaker 1:  yeah. a lot of thinking, a lot of analyzing. you know, we go in circles in our head. and when that happens, we're really disconnected from ourselves and our emotional state and what's happening inside our body. and for me, the way that i see it is like, well, that's where our wisdom is. you know? it's in our body. it's not it's not in our head. you know, we're we're feeling beings, not thinking beings. so if we get too caught up in our head, that often creates more stress. right? we become more agitated, so that affects our not only our mental health, but our physical health. and we can't think as clearly, and it can just more easily become too much, and we get to feel really stuck. right? so when we can get out of our head and into our body a little more, and that's what the art and creative experience does for you, then you can, you know, kinda lower your blood pressure. right? breathe a little easier. there's, like, a physiological transformation that happens when you engage with art, you know, from neurotransmitters being released, you know, your body moving into more relaxation, and clarity often comes from that experience.

Speaker 0:  that's so funny. i have never made that, yeah, that relation between embodiment and art. but, yeah, it makes so much sense. you're using your hands or or, you know, yeah, mainly your hands and your arms probably. mhmm. but but what you're saying, it's more than that. it's just like you kinda turn off the thinking and just let the feeling come out into the art and the creativity.

Speaker 1:  right. yeah. yeah. because, again, if we're if we're too overly stressed, you know, and just thinking in loops, which we can all get into, then we're not gonna be able to make great decisions. you know, it really impacts our decision making, our ability to visualize something different for ourselves. you know? and, again, we get to feel really stuck. but once we get out of that part of our brain, you know, and into the more sensory brain, then our body transforms immediately. you know, oftentimes when i'm working with clients, even if we're just doing, you know, some silly doodling, you know, something like that, you know, they immediately feel the relief.

Speaker 0:  mhmm.

Speaker 1:  i mean, i've i've stood in front of a crowd of, you know, over two hundred and fifty people and had them doodle. and almost every person, you know, had a transformative experience, and many people often give me the same feedback, which is like, oh, i feel so much more relaxed. i feel so much calmer. i feel like i have more clarity. it's like, yeah. of course. because when we're in that fight or flight mode, we're not gonna be able to think clearly. it's just physiological fact. right? yeah. but we need to be able to get out of that, and art and creativity is a wonderful resource and tool for that.

Speaker 0:  i wonder if it also brings us back into our, you know, inner child or, like, the the the actual child stage of our lives where we're just like, oh, you know, there's no agenda. there's no time. there's no it's like, oh, this is just me and my pencils, and i have all the time in the world to to do that.

Speaker 1:  that's right. there's no thinking.

Speaker 0:  there's no thinking. no. or or there's thinking, but flow thinking. you know? just like, oh, this happened and this happened, but not, like, cognitive structured thinking like we would right. do for our business. yeah.

Speaker 1:  right. exactly. and, you know, it's interesting that you talk about that, you know, like, the cognitive structuring. and i think that that's a lot of the way that we trap ourselves, you know, because we have, a, often unrealistic expectations of ourselves. right? but we're also want everything, like, perfectly planned out or to know what's coming and, you know, gives us a lot of anxiety to sit in the unknown. and so when you have a creative practice, you get to exercise moving through those challenging emotions. right? so if you if i put a piece of blank paper in front of someone and their blood pressure goes up, right, because immediately their thinking brain is saying, but i don't know what to do, and i'm not good at it, and what's gonna happen, and what if i mess it up? and, you know, these are all things that we say to ourselves every day, you know, throughout our day with different things. so once they engage with the process without any thought, right, like, just let the paint flow or let the marker move wherever it wants to move, then we get to exercise that muscle of learning to do that. right.

Speaker 0:  yeah. and and it's again, what comes to mind is school. right? and we don't really learn creativity or creative art, uh, at school. we learn cognitive art, maybe, you know, where it's like maybe. all there within the lines and you have to construct exactly the example of the teacher. like, that's not create creativity. right? that's just like i don't know why you call that. mimicking. exactly.

Speaker 1:  it's mimicking. right? so there's no independent thought around that, which is really interesting, right, versus a younger child. i taught preschool for many years, you know, which is like the three to five year old range. and what i remember about that age group is that there really was no thought. it it was all intuitive.

Speaker 0:  right.

Speaker 1:  i the painting is attracting me. right? and so i'm gonna go to the easel, and i'm gonna put paint on the paper. there there was no thinking around that. you know? it was all really intuitive. and when i think about a a childlike state, i think about free flow, and i think about curiosity.

Speaker 0:  mhmm.

Speaker 1:  right? how children are often in a constant state of curiosity. like, i wonder what that is and how does that work and let me touch it and let me smell it and, you know, all these kinds of things, you know, really connecting with your sensory being.

Speaker 0:  yeah. yeah. that's so good. i was just thinking about my my mandala and the seven p's. right? yes. and and how, yeah, i really wanted to combine the the framework with the creativity and with the coloring and not like, also with self reflection. so while the idea, at least for the seven piece of humane marketing with the mandala, is that while you're coloring, you're kind of, like, free flow thinking about these different areas of your business. because you're using your body and your creativity, it doesn't feel so heavy.

Speaker 1:  that's right.

Speaker 0:  does that make sense at all?

Speaker 1:  no. absolutely. because, again, it's it's i think what people don't often understand and is undervalued is the physiological, the tran transformation that occurs, you know, when you start engaging with art making or creativity. so coloring into, you know, your mandala workbook, so to speak, right, that is gonna immediately activate the right brain, and it's gonna release those neurotransmitters that are very calming, you know, like dopamine and serotonin and oxytocin. right? and so that physiologically changes your body and makes it easier for you to be able to think clearly. that's right. it it doesn't feel as heavy. but when we sit in, like, left brain stuff, you know, like, the way that typical business planning goes is, you know, goals and it's very masculine. right? structure. you know? what am i gonna accomplish? what what am i gonna produce? you know? and that puts, like, a lot of pressure. even as i'm speaking that, i can feel that my body is getting tighter just talking about it. right?

Speaker 0:  it's a linear process that

Speaker 1:  yes.

Speaker 0:  i feel like, oh, this.

Speaker 1:  a lot of pressure. yes. it's a lot of pressure. and then we, you know, then we can move into our perfectionism stuff that it has to be a certain way and or fear of making a mistake. you know? and, again, notice the parallel between that experience and the art making experience where we can have the exact same sensations and thoughts. what if i mess it up? what if i don't do it right? you know? i was recently at a at a women's conference, and it's a pretty large conference. it was about fifty five hundred women there. and i had a booth where i was inviting people to come doodle with me. right? and what i kept really being fascinated by was how many people would either say, oh, no. no. i i don't know how, which is like but it's doodling.

Speaker 0:  i didn't i didn't ask you to draw

Speaker 1:  my list. like, you know, like a lifelike image of something. you know? it's just, you know, scribbling around on a piece of paper, or i would hear something like, well, i don't know. i'm not really good at that, or i don't know if i can. you know? and as i was, you know, guiding the women there, you know, explaining what i'm explaining to you, like, hey. you know, right now you're just in your head, and this is gonna help you get out of there and start flowing. you know, some of the women were like, i can't believe how much i'm in my head. i literally can't get started. right? it was like, wow. this is amazing.

Speaker 0:  thinking, oh, how do i start this?

Speaker 1:  yeah. is there a right way? is there a wrong way? what again, the the same thoughts that we often have, you know, as we're moving through our business and in life. right? what if i get it wrong? what if i mess it up? what if it's what will people think? you know? all these kinds of things. and when they would engage with it, every single time, it was the reporting back was, wow. i feel so much different. and i'm gonna work on this because i can see that i'm spending too much time in my thinking brain.

Speaker 0:  yeah. yeah. so good. in in my upcoming book, business like we're human, i talk about this concept of spaciousness and how if we healed our relationship to work and kind of, like, created because in the industrial revolution, we created this myth that we are basically working bees. right? it's like we work every day, nine to five, well, at least weekdays. and that's how we define ourselves as human is by our job title very often. and and there was no spaciousness. people, you know, run around with the busyness badge, and and, of course, they don't doodle. you know? of course, they don't have time to to doodle. right. and so, basically, what i'm hearing is the reason why people don't make time to doodle is because they don't create spaciousness in their calendar, and they feel like the their definition of success, they only get there if they work, work, work, work, work. right? mhmm. and so even doodling feels like a waste of time. i'm wasting my time. right? mhmm.

Speaker 1:  yeah. and it's a little bit too, like, how art and creativity is perceived. right? there's often this misconception that, you know, a, it's for kids. yeah. right? and two, there's just no value to it. like, what what is the point? you know? if you can't draw something lifelike, then what would be the point of doing that? and so my message is, you know, let me explain to you what happens to your brain and your body and how that transforms and how that creates spaciousness in your mind, right, in your heart, in your body, and that how that then translates out, you know, into the work that you're doing. and, you know, i love that you're talking about, like, your relationship with your business because when i work with clients around their business, creating imagery about your business is actually extremely powerful.

Speaker 0:  mhmm.

Speaker 1:  right? because now you are in a relationship with it if you externalize it in that way. so whatever, you know, image comes to mind when you think about your business, how how would you want to imagine it, right mhmm.

Speaker 0:  mhmm.

Speaker 1:  as an image. and it changes because, again, our our business exists in our head or in how much money we're making or how many clients we have or, you know, etcetera. but when it's this physical, tangible thing that you can look at and touch, now you can have a relationship with your business.

Speaker 0:  yeah. that's interesting. i think of of it maybe like, i would probably draw myself if i, you know, thought thought about my business because to me, it's really just an extension of myself nowadays. hasn't always been like that. but nowadays, i just feel like if i think about business like we're human, it's just an extension with myself of myself. and so i guess what i would would be working with in this drawing is, oh, what's my relationship with myself? right? because if i am my business and it's an extension of myself, well, then what's my relationship with myself? and, yeah, you can you can get into really fascinating conversations right there.

Speaker 1:  exactly. exactly. and if if, you know, if you make it a regular practice

Speaker 0:  right.

Speaker 1:  you know, to check-in with with yourself and your business in that way, you know, again, there's just a deeper connection. it's not so surface or, um, task oriented.

Speaker 0:  right. yeah. yeah. so tell me about some other tools you're using with your with your clients. like, what what do you help? there's another, uh, line that, um, you know, i got from your website. you help, um, you help women rediscover their wild. mhmm. yes. that also, of course, what it makes me think of is yeah. well, in relation with you, like, lots of colors and and just, like, yeah, this creative artist. right? that's what it makes me think.

Speaker 1:  vibrancy. vibrancy is the word that comes up for me. well, the the concept of the wild woman, you know, it's related to an archetype by, um, doctor clarissa estes pintoz, and she's an author, and she talked about the wild woman archetype. and what the acronym that i came up with around the wild woman is, um, w stands for waking up to your life. so to me, that means taking responsibility for yourself. right? no one's gonna come in and rescue you. you have to do the work. right? and then the i is for ignite your inner knowing, and that's where the creativity comes in. like, there's wisdom inside you. you don't need to constantly look for it outside of yourself because that's something that i notice with women, know, as they're constantly looking for external validation or, oh, i need i need a coach for this. i need a, you know, a teacher for that. and it's like, well, sometimes that is really helpful, and other times, you're just not trusting yourself. so the creativity, you know, is something that connects you to your inner wise woman. mhmm. right? and helps you build that confidence to keep going. right.

Speaker 0:  and then

Speaker 1:  the the l is for love yourself fiercely, which is a huge element. like, that needs to be our baseline, you know, for living is learning to love ourselves like we do other people. you know? so i often invite my clients to think about someone that they deeply care about, somebody that means a lot to them, right, and how that feels, you know, when they think about that person, how they feel about that person, and what needs to happen to then turn that same kind of loving energy, you know, towards themselves. because we tend to be so hard on ourselves. right? so learning to be self compassionate and and be loving and kind to yourself is a huge part of business success. right? and then the d is to dare to be unapologetically you. like, you're the only person that you can be. right? but oftentimes, there's so much comparison that's going on. like, oh, wow. look at sarah. she's she's doing a lot because, you know, look at this class or this post that she put up, and so i i gotta be like sarah. you know? and it's like, no. like, i can't be like sarah because i'm me. right? i can i can have sarah inspire me? right? like, that's okay. right? but we're constantly doing this comparison. it's like, well, you you can only be yourself, and you have to learn to live with who you are. right? live with yourself. and when all those aspects are addressed, then that makes being being in life more feel more successful, but definitely in your business. right? because, again, in business, we go up and we go down, up and down and backwards and forwards, right, and sideways. and that can really impact, you know, our mental our mental state, you know, how we see ourselves, how we think about ourselves. but if we can always go back to, i'm okay. i'm a worthy person. right? and be kind to yourself as you move through all of that, then you can keep moving forward with a lot more ease. otherwise, again, we we'll just get stuck in that.

Speaker 0:  yeah. exactly. you just look for the exterior confirmation that you are good enough where it's all inside of us. right? but you need you

Speaker 1:  need to

Speaker 0:  find it. yeah. this acronym would have fit really nicely also with marketing because everything you shared applies to to marketing as well. right? so so, yeah, tell us a little bit about your marketing story because you attended the marketing, like, where human program back in can't remember when, but a while ago.

Speaker 1:  yes.

Speaker 0:  and then i just watched you bloom and, like, be yourself and bring all that creativity into your marketing. so was that yeah. just share a little bit. like because i remember in the beginning, you you you thought it was hard because marketing to you just seemed like this thing that we have to do a certain way. right?

Speaker 1:  mhmm. it felt like a task.

Speaker 0:  yeah. yeah.

Speaker 1:  right? and i think that that's probably been the biggest transformation is that i see it more as an expression. right. now. right? before it was like, well, you know, you you have to do this. you have to have a website, and you have to post. and, you know, and if i i don't function that well as a highly sensitive person, it's like that that didn't feel good to me, you know, in my body. like, that's not how i wanna approach my business. i don't want it to feel like a task. right. right? and so there were oftentimes when i felt like i was doing stuff just for the sake of doing it. mhmm. you know? mhmm. and that didn't feel good. it didn't feel authentic. you know? it didn't feel right for me and my body. so once i started thinking about marketing and, again, creating, you know, imagery around marketing, around my business, how do i wanna be in it, you know, that kind of a thing, i started to really think about it more as an expression of myself. yeah. right? and how do i wanna express myself in the world?

Speaker 0:  you should do a post, like, before and after. you know? because i remember i remember your your post from before where it's like, oh, yeah. this is this is a marketing post, right, where you basically and, like, everybody does, like i did too. it's like, oh, you have to create this certain marketing post. you get a canva template, and here you go. here's my message. right? and then, you know, the after is now, like, you doodling or your latest art project or yeah. it just really feels like, oh, there is miriam. she's being herself. right?

Speaker 1:  exactly. it feels much more connected and much more authentic.

Speaker 0:  yeah. of course, people who are listening, uh, might be thinking, oh, yeah. of course, you know, she is, uh, you know, a creative and an art therapist and and working with women like that. but what i always say is, like, bring more of you. so maybe you're doing like, i just shared with you. i'm i'm i signed up for a pottery class. like, is not part of my business. i'm not a pottery teacher, but it make a really fun post, you know, to share about this pottery class. and so it doesn't always have to be business oriented what we're sharing, and and that creativity can really come into our marketing as well.

Speaker 1:  no. i agree. and, you know, just on a little side note because i think that, you know, people look at me and think, you know, well, she's a creative. creative. so you know? and, again, that's really kind of a put down towards themselves. you know? but i'm not.

Speaker 0:  right? yeah.

Speaker 1:  and so my backstory is that i didn't go into the field of art therapy because i i was an artist. i never practiced art. i worked with kids, and i wanted to continue to work with kids in a therapeutic way. and i thought, well, that's their language. it's art. right? and so art therapy seems like a really good fit. but the biggest transformation for me was that, you know, in my arrogance at the time, you know, over twenty years ago now when they, you know, invited me into the master's program, but also said, yes. but you need twelve units of art. you know? i was slightly offended. you know? because i thought, well, why do i need to do that? like, i'm just helping other people, which, you know, i always reflect back on that and think, wow. where was i in my journey that i couldn't even consider, right, that that would be for me? and so the gift came from learning to use art in as a tool for healing and wellness and and self development. i didn't go to art classes to learn how to draw a specific thing or technique, or that isn't how i learned to make art. you know? and so even my my personal development as an artist, right, like, i'm still working on really owning that title, right, because of all of the conditioning around art.

Speaker 0:  right. yeah.

Speaker 1:  right? well, you didn't you don't have an mfa or you can't draw lifelike things, and it's like, right. but none of that has anything to do with anything. from my perspective, we're all artists. we all have the ability to create and express because that's really all it is. right? and i heard, um, i heard a term recently, a little saying that said, um, expression is the opposite of depression. right? and i was like, oh. that's yes. yes. right? because depression is often we're holding emotion. you know, our body's kind of saturated, you know, with unprocessed emotion. but if you use the art process to express, then things get lighter, you know, in your body. so for anybody out there who doesn't think they're a creative, you know, or an artist, i i'm here to tell you, yes. you are. right? you just have to allow yourself to explore and experiment. and like i said before, be curious. and just see what happens. you know? if you put some paint on a piece of paper, let's see what happens.

Speaker 0:  yeah. and it it really is like, art has this, yeah, connotation of, like, you need to study it and and all of that. but creativity is a different term to me. it's like, yeah, you can be creative for two minutes. right? it doesn't take a lot of time. it doesn't take studying. it doesn't take anything. it doesn't take, like, all these special tools. like, you talk about doodling. you can just take your pencil to doodle. you don't even need colored pencils or anything else.

Speaker 1:  you don't need anything fancy. and it's it's good to actually differentiate between creativity and artistic expression. right? because creativity, its baseline definition is problem solving.

Speaker 0:  yeah.

Speaker 1:  that's all it is. creativity is problem solving, thinking outside the box, you know, coming up with new ideas. it's like, well, you do that every day, all day long. every single human does that every day. right? but artistic expression, right, is using a medium to express those ideas. mhmm.

Speaker 0:  yeah.

Speaker 1:  that's the difference. right? so creativity, you know, again, it gets kinda interlaced with artistic expression. but when you think about it, you know, in those in that bare bones definition, no. it's just imagination. it's just thinking about a new idea. it's just problem solving. right? it's like, oh, well, i do that. that's what most people will say. you know, it's like, right. exactly. so you are therefore creative.

Speaker 0:  right. but does that mean like, i like the artistic expression because maybe that means that we're putting it out there rather than because you can be creative in your head. right? mhmm. where we wanna get out of our heads, and so maybe the expression is

Speaker 1:  it's the expression. that's right.

Speaker 0:  is needed.

Speaker 1:  yeah. yeah. absolutely. because at some point, you know, as you're problem solving through something or if you get a new idea, you're gonna have, like, uh-huh. and and you're gonna execute something.

Speaker 0:  mhmm. yeah.

Speaker 1:  you know? who knows what that will be, but something's going to happen from that. and so artistic expression is just, i think, setting more intention and more consciousness around that expression.

Speaker 0:  right. yeah. yeah. it's beautiful. so what would you say to people who are listening who are kinda like these women that you met at the stand? it's like, oh, i don't know where to start or i can't do it. like, yeah, what's an easy first step?

Speaker 1:  well, an easy first step is to grab a piece of paper. and like you said, it doesn't have to be like, the writing tool doesn't have to be anything fancy. it could be just a regular old pencil or pen. you know? um, if you wanna have a little bit more play, you can add some color to that. right? and just move it around the page. that's it. right?

Speaker 0:  it's so simple.

Speaker 1:  i know. we live in a world where there's either straight lines or curved lines. right? it's that simple. and so to move the pen or pencil around in whatever way it wants to move, you know? up, down, straight across, wiggly, spirally. it doesn't matter. right? and one of the things that people will notice if they engage in that practice is that the head was gonna turn on. right? it's gonna say, i don't know. i don't know. or this is dumb. or what am i doing? you know? all of these things that, you know, go through our head. and slowly, that voice will start to quiet. right? because the other part of the brain is gonna start to get activated, and you're gonna start to notice, you know, how that feels differently. so it's it's really quite simple. right? it doesn't have to be overcomplicated at all. no one's asking you to pull out a water palette or get a canvas out or, you know, even take a pottery class like you're saying. you know? it's like, no. you don't have to do anything like that. it would be really fun if you did, but it doesn't have to be that complicated. it's just moving stuff around. and i had i had somebody say that she she called herself now a born again doodler because she and so many people will say that, well, i remember i would get in trouble for doodling, though, right, when i was a kid. i'm like, i know. that's because there's a misconception, you know, around doodling and how powerful it is, you know, and what's happening in your brain around it and how actually for a lot of people, it helps you retain more information.

Speaker 0:  right.

Speaker 1:  if you're doodling, like, at a meeting or during a workshop or, you know, something like that. yeah. like, it's actually gonna help you.

Speaker 0:  yeah. i should have done that while we were talking. i should have you know? and then i could have held it. yeah. we need to record it again.

Speaker 1:  a quick mini activity. yeah. there's still time, sarah.

Speaker 0:  yeah. so definitely just just try it out. and and and i like how you say, you know, start to notice the left brain. first, they will want to rebel and say, this is just stupid. why are doing this? and then it switches over to the right brain, and it's just, like, calming down.

Speaker 1:  you start to feel the flow in your body. you kinda start to let go a little bit. you know? and, again, it's such a great practice to manage some of the thoughts that can come in and interfere. you know? so as i'm moving somebody through the process, you know, the inner critic is gonna wanna come in and say, oh, that's not a very good flower, or that was oh, that doesn't look like x, y, or z. and, you know, my job is to say, do notice that.

Speaker 0:  right.

Speaker 1:  notice how the critic wants to come in. right? and how can we manage that? and, again, this is just a muscle building around managing that voice.

Speaker 0:  yeah. so you're basically helping women tap into that right brain and creative power so that it then, yeah, i guess, helps them with their business in order to keep going. like you said before, it's like, well, you know, we need that resilience. and where do we get resilience is going inwards and using tools like, uh, artistic expression.

Speaker 1:  exactly. because some of the, you know, the main obstacles, you know, that women encounter in business are things like perfectionism, you know, having too high of an expectation, you know, having the inner critic constantly be, you know, in your ear, you know, things like that. and there's not a lot that we can do about the inner critic, like, in terms of, like, that's just part of the human condition. you know, it has a purpose, believe it or not, but it doesn't have to dominate. right. it it it definitely won't be helpful if it's in charge, right, running the show. so every time that you engage in a creative practice, you know, and make a little doodle, make some art in some way, and that voice comes up, like, the more you move through that, the better you get at addressing that in everyday life.

Speaker 0:  mhmm. yeah. beautiful.

Speaker 1:  it's empowering.

Speaker 0:  it really is. and it reminds me of this the the book, um, and the quote where, um, it says the right right brainers will rule the world, i think. and it and it really you know, it really i really feel like this is the paradigm we're shifting to. we can't we like, look where we're at. we have all this left brain power, and yet we're we can't solve the planet's problem. no. so we need to start imagining new ideas. and what does that need? creativity. right? exactly. to think outside the the box. well, yeah, we need more art. yeah. and i think

Speaker 1:  that's a that's a good point. you know? i mean, we we have and continue to operate so much in that left brain and kind of masculine energy. and my observation, you know, in the work that i do is that people are really stressed out. yeah. horrible. the stress is higher than ever. you know? and it's like, how's that working? honestly, like, be honest with yourself. how's it really working for you to exist constantly in that left brain kind of masculine space of doing and producing and trying to be perfect and, you know, doing things a certain way or the quote, unquote, the right way, you know, etcetera. it's like, you know, if you really check-in with your body, you're probably really stressed. yeah. and that's not

Speaker 0:  it's pretty often they're so stressed. they don't even know what it's like anymore to not be stressed.

Speaker 1:  yes.

Speaker 0:  so the body forgot what it's like to be calm. and and probably at the beginning, it can be stressful to do these doodlings because it's so calm. right? it's like, my god. this is so yeah. this feels weird.

Speaker 1:  even know what to do.

Speaker 0:  yeah. so, yeah, we need we need you. we need your help in this transition. that's that's for sure.

Speaker 1:  yeah. it's a really powerful tool that's often underestimated.

Speaker 0:  and it's you know, it can be free. i mean, like, look. we all have, you know, pencils.

Speaker 1:  we all have a pen and pencil. yeah. exactly. yeah. yeah. it does not have to be fancy.

Speaker 0:  beautiful. alright. but do please share with people where they can find out how to work with you if they need some help in in this transition.

Speaker 1:  yeah. if they're looking for an alternative way. yeah. work. right? because, you know, what i noticed in the in the coaching business is that there's a lot of focus and emphasis on mindset work, you know, which is great. you know, mindset's really important. but unless you get your body to buy in, it's gonna be really hard to make that shift. right? so mhmm. the whole body approach is really important. and people can find me, you know, on on the web and at my website, mary martinez coaching dot com. i'm also on linkedin and instagram. people wanna look for me there. right? but oftentimes, the people that come to me are are looking for an alternative way. they've done a lot of, you know, kind of left brain work, goal setting.

Speaker 0:  yeah. it's like they're they're like, i've tried everything. i need something else.

Speaker 1:  yeah. i'm looking for something else. yeah. i'm looking for a more expansive way, you know, i would say to exist in general, not just to, you know, improve my business, you know, or anything like that, but just a way of being.

Speaker 0:  yeah. that's beautiful. kinda similar with humane marketing. you know? it's like, i tried everything. i want something different.

Speaker 1:  that's right. yeah. and i just why you and i are connected.

Speaker 0:  exactly. yeah. and i just grabbed, uh, your card on my desk, and i don't know if i ever told you. you know the the peace symbol? yes. yes. yes. did i tell you that the business like we're human book is based on this peace symbol? no. oh, i forgot to tell you that. yeah. i was like, oh, i need you know how i had the mandala for the marketing for human book? and so i'm like, i need a new visual, right, for for this third book. and i looked at your your card. i'm like, that's it. we need inner peace so that we can bring outer change. and so that's what the business like we're human book is based on is your picture that you sent me.

Speaker 1:  oh my gosh. that's so exciting. right?

Speaker 0:  yeah. so, yeah, peace peace sign. more peace and more creativity and art. that's what

Speaker 1:  right. and bringing out onto the world. otherwise, we're just producing.

Speaker 0:  yeah. yeah. yeah. we're just producing. yeah. that's powerful. mhmm. well, thanks so much for this wonderful conversation, miriam. really enjoyed it.

Speaker 1:  yeah. thank you too, sarah.

In this new episode entitled Attract Conscious Clients with Your Website, we welcome Uta Demontis, an branding and web design expert for conscious customer attraction. Uta shares invaluable insights on how to create a digital presence that resonates with discerning, values-driven clients.

From authentic storytelling techniques to essential website maintenance practices, this conversation covers practical strategies for conscious entrepreneurs looking to align their online presence with their mission.

Whether you're refining your existing site or building from scratch, Uta's guidance will help you craft a website that not only attracts your ideal clients but also reflects your deepest values and commitment to positive impact.

In this episode, we discussed:

• What conscious consumers really look for when they land on your website and how they think differently from traditional customers
• Ways to showcase your values and mission authentically online without coming across as preachy or fake
• Real examples of websites that nail it with conscious consumers and what makes them so special
• How to tell your impact story in a way that genuinely connects with conscious clients (and doesn't put them to sleep)
• The key info conscious consumers dig for when researching your business and how to make it easy to find
• Why site speed matters more than you might think when it comes to showing you care about user experience
• Essential website maintenance tasks you shouldn't ignore if you want to keep things running smoothly
• Common website mistakes that could be scaring away conscious clients (even if your business is perfect for them)

If after listening to this episode you'd love to implement then please join us in our community for this new Collab Workshop on March 5th. You can sign up for a small donation at humane.marketing/workshop

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Speaker 1:  hello, humane marketers. welcome back to the humane marketing podcast. the place to be for the generation that cares. this is a show where we talk about running your business in a way that feels good to you, is aligned with your values, and also resonates with today's conscious customers because it's humane, ethical, and non pushy. i'm sarah senecroce, your hippie turned conscious business coach for quietly rebellious entrepreneurs and change makers, mama bear of the humane marketing circle, and renegade author of marketing like we're human, selling like we're human, and soon also my third book, business like we're human. if after listening to the show for a while, you're ready to move on to the next level and start implementing and would welcome a community of like minded, quietly rebellious entrepreneurs who discuss with transparency what works and what doesn't work in business, then we'd love to welcome you in our humane marketing circle. if you're picturing your typical facebook group, let me paint a new picture for you. this is a closed community of like minded entrepreneurs from all over the world who come together in two meetups per month to hold each other accountable and build their business in a conscious and sustainable way. we all share with transparency and vulnerability what works and what doesn't work in our business so that you can figure out what works for you, instead of keep throwing spaghetti on the wall and seeing what sticks. find out more at humane dot marketing forward slash circle. twice per year, i host my signature program, the marketing like we're human, aka the client resonator program live. in a deep dive into the seven p's of the humane marketing mandala, you will learn to market from within. this program is for you if you want and need to get more clients, but want to share your message in an ethical and humane way. if you want to make a difference with your work. if you are just starting out, or if you have been in business for a while, but haven't really found the marketing activities that work for you. or also, if you are pivoting your business from business as usual to your life's work and want to radically change the way you get clients. find out more at humane dot marketing forward slash program. and finally, if you prefer one on one support from me, my humane business coaching could be just what you need, whether it's for your marketing, sales, general business building, or help with your big idea like writing a book. i'd love to share my brain and my heart with you together with my almost twenty years business experience and help you grow a sustainable business that is joyful and sustainable. if you love this podcast, wait until i show you my mama bear qualities as my one on one client. find out more at humane dot marketing forward slash coaching.

Speaker 2:  hello, friends. welcome back to the humane marketing podcast. today's conversation fits best under the p of product and promotion as well as people because we talk about your website and how it can attract conscious clients. if you're a regular here, you know that i'm organizing the conversations around the seven p's of the humane marketing mandala. and if you're new here and don't know what i'm talking about, you can download your one page marketing plan with the humane marketing version of the seven p's of marketing at humane dot marketing forward slash one page. that's the number one and the word page. and it comes with seven email prompts to really help you reflect on these different pieces for your business. so it's not prescriptive but reflective. today, i'm talking to jutta demontis, an austrian based in england. jutta is a web designer and specializing in creating effective wordpress websites for coaches, solopreneurs, and small businesses. she designs websites that are strategically crafted to serve as powerful marketing tools that attract clients and drive business growth. ootah is passionate about helping small businesses and solopreneurs thrive in the digital world, providing them with the support they need to succeed online. in this episode, we discussed what conscious consumers really look for when they land on your website, and how they think differently from traditional customers. ways to showcase your values and mission authentically without coming across as preachy or fake. how to tell your story in a way that genuinely connects with conscious clients and doesn't put them asleep. but also how to create a sustainability page, for example, where you tell your story and your connection to sustainability. the key info conscious consumers dig for when researching your business and how to make it easy to find. why site speed matters more than you might think when it comes to showing that you care about your user experience. essential website maintenance tasks you shouldn't ignore if you want to keep things running smoothly. and then also common website mistakes that could be scaring away conscious clients. if after listening to this episode you'd love to implement, then please join us in our community for this new collab workshop on march fifth. you can sign up for a small donation at humane dot marketing forward slash workshop. so let's dive in.

Sarah:  Uta how are you today?

Uta:  hi, sarah. yes. i'm very well. thank you.

Sarah:  so good to have you on the humane marketing podcast. welcome.

Uta:  great. thank you.

Sarah:  super excited, also to have you in the community to talk to us about this topic of website care and maintenance for conscious business owners. so looking forward to march fifth. but before, let's have a conversation about this topic, which i think is very relevant. and, it combines like we said, we it combines kinda two topics. on one hand, it's focused on the business owner, because we're talking about the maintenance and the care that goes into a website. but then it also, concerns the the the conscious client because that's the person who visits our website. so maybe let's start with the with the conscious client. like, if you think about a a a website, what do you feel today that are the main key elements that a conscious client, looks for when landing on a website? like, what are they paying attention to?

Uta:  yes. so conscious clients, of course, it depends whether it's a service or a product. so, you know, they're slightly different. but generally, in addition to for to any client wanting to know that the service or the product is right for them, they also want to know the background of the company. so, if it's a product, they want to know where is the material from, where has it been sourced, how has it been manufactured, how is the packaging provided, how is the transport, everything around. whether this is as green as it possibly can be, whether it's sourced in an ethical way, and everything that is, really caring for the environment and people. services, there's, the since they're not offering a product, they don't have, any sourcing material in in that way. but even the website itself is also how, a website is being how the business itself that is having the website is, conducting business. so for example, are they if they're a smaller or bigger company, how they are, you know, with the employees, are they giving back to the community, do they have certain programs that help the community, also make it more, inclusive. so there's a whole lot that different businesses can do to really show and demonstrate that they are a conscious business, that they're inclusive, that they take responsibility socially and, environmentally, and that they're doing the best that they can, in providing, a good service and product that is, also really, provided in a conscious way.

Sarah:  yeah. so good. thanks for giving those examples. now in our case, there we mainly have solopreneurs. right? so these are not most of my listeners don't have a product. they there are coaches, consultants, trainers, etcetera. and so where, like, on the website, would you mention any of these engagements that you mentioned that, you know, for example, you give back to the community or that that you're supporting a cause or something like that? where do people usually mention that?

Uta:  yeah. so one page, which is great, is, for example, the about page. or alternatively, they could even create in, separate pages, sustainability page or how we contribute page. but, so the about page, everything on the website is about the consumer rather than the business itself. in the about page, there's more, sort of freedom tools to really talk about the company in a way, that really shows, who they are. so in the in the case of a one person business, a one person, that person is the business. we are the reflection of the company. so we can, share our values of, also share what we're doing. so for example, if the website is hosted, by a green hosting company, then that would be a great place to also show that on the website. because i think sometimes people, they do they support a lot of be it, you know, growing trees or, supporting charities and doing quite a lot. but sometimes they're even hesitant of putting that on the website out of fear that perhaps, it it comes across in the way that they want to show off that we are doing all these, you know, activities to help others. but i think it is, i think it's really good to show if this is authentically and truthfully what the company or the one person is doing, then to show that on the on the website, for example, if they're supporting a charity, perhaps they're having a blog where they could write about a recent, you know, event where they were involved, when they were raising money for charity, for example. so all of these, inform i think all of that information is really great to share because, really, it shows of who that person, that business is.

Sarah:  yeah. those are great, great places. obviously, i think the about page, besides the homepage, is actually the most visited page of of a website. right? because people are just curious. and you said it's so, yeah, eloquently. it's not so much about the owner or not only about the owner of the website. yes. people are curious about the owner of the website, but i always explaining explain it like a a mirror almost. like, they come to the about page to find out whether they're looking at themselves and whether they see themselves in the the owner of this website or in my case, since i i work a lot with with solopreneurs specifically. but even even on a product or a company website, we are looking whether we are aligned with this company, and that's what happens on the about page. so, yeah, i totally agree with you that that's a good place. i think i have actually a few, like, logos of, you know, collaborations, that i have at the bottom, like, in the footer of of, one of the pages or or maybe even on can't remember. should i look that up? but but that's other another way to, you know, have certain, logos that you, want to highlight and put them in the footer of of the website. what do you think about that?

Uta:  yes. absolutely. or any certifications or, you know, organizations that you're a member of, absolutely, to place those in the footer is a great place.

Sarah:  yeah. so conscious clients, they're not just conscious, but they also i feel like they're more thorough in their research, and they're, you know, they they really come to your website to get a lot of information. so what is some of the information that you want to make sure that they have access to besides, you know, these collaborations that we we just mentioned? and and how does storytelling have a role in that?

Uta:  mhmm. yes. so when you, think of a website, there are really two parts of the website. so there are the main pages, which are, you know, the home, the about, the individual service pages, the contact page. this is which makes up the basic structure of the website. and within that, you're also sharing your story, or the story, that is speaking to the client, to help them understand what you're offering and whether that is the right thing. and then you have, i suggest, people to have a blog because the blog serves several purposes. on the one hand, a blog is the place where you can really write and go deeper into certain aspects of your work, all the values, and what is important to you because that doesn't all fit onto one page. it would be overwhelm for a client to to read everything. but so this is really good where it's where you have a blog because it can demonstrate, you know, that you're an expert in what you're in the service that you're providing. you can share more about you, your values. you can demonstrate that more. and, it's also great for seo. so for seo, you need to have more content, highly valuable content. and so you can share more about that in the various blog posts.

Sarah:  yeah. so true. and it's funny because it's actually just today that we're having the the seo, workshop, collab workshop with, kelly druid. and in that combination of content and and and then also kinda tricking the algorithm to show up for the right people. right? for those conscious clients that i i find that fascinating that we can play the game, but play it in a humane way so that it it benefits us. and and, yes, you're so right. the blog helps us go beyond just the about page. right? so even if we're not just aiming for seo, it just gives us extra space that we can use to to expand on on those topics. yeah.

Uta:  yes. absolutely. so for this, a blog is really the perfect, solution instead of cramming it all into one page.

Sarah:  right. i i, i think it was a contact on linkedin, trying to remember her name. she's from the philippines. i think her first name is chek or or dulio or something like that. i'll have to look her up and and quote her in the show notes. but she's really into sustainability, and, she had this kind of template, how to create a sustainability page for for your small business, which i, really loved. and what i loved about it is that she invited us to tell our story with sustainability. because, again, we're not a huge corporation where we have a sustainability department and everything is perfect, and, you know, we're you're we're totally we taught totally bought into sustainability, and we're now an expert in sustainability. we're not. so, i, followed that that template that she shared and really just with transparency shared my story of of how sustainability has, become more and more important to me. so if listeners are curious, you can go to humane dot marketing forward slash sustainability and just kinda see how i share that story. i think that's important in the small business field because it can feel overwhelming. this whole sustainability thing can feel totally overwhelming, and we can feel like, who are we to want to even try to make an impact here as, you know, solopreneurs? but we actually can make a small impact, and all all of the small impacts make a big impact as we know. so, yeah, really, really like this idea of transparency and just saying, hey, you know, yes, i take flights, because because that's important to me. but i have many other things where i feel like i'm doing a good job. i think that that's another topic. it's kind of like this shaming that goes around, around the sustainability topic, and that's difficult, to to deal with. so, yeah.

Uta:  yes. i agree. i think that is also partly tying into what i was sharing before that people then are hesitant about sharing anything on the website because somehow it could perhaps have a drawback even though the intention was coming from a good place. but i think i like to think that we're all on a journey. so it's not that we are the completed end product in a conscious business that does everything correctly. because it is a process. we're just becoming better and better and becoming more sustainable and more conscious. so i, you know, we are all in different places, and i'm just encouraged that everyone is on that journey, and we are all getting better and better. and that's, you know, what we can do.

Sarah:  yeah. exactly. let's switch topics and now go to the business owner, part and more of the website maintenance. so, yeah, what what role does website maintenance have to play in this whole field of being a conscious entrepreneur? what matters there?

Uta:  yeah. so i see a website like the shop window, to a shop or a restaurant. and, you know, when you go past the shop window, the shop window should really be a great reflection of what the shop is actually offering, being clean, up to date, appealing to that type of client or customer that they want to attract, and being taken well taken care of and so for me the website is exactly the same and especially for solopreneur, the business is a reflection of who we are and i see that the website is really a reflection of that business. so to make sure that it's really up to date with the offerings that we're having, that, we're keeping that fresh, that we are updating, you know, if you've got, any new certifications, for example, or client, reviews, that we're adding them to the website. so the website isn't a a one you know, a once it's done, it's done kind of project. it's an ongoing project. and i also find it actually helps me to look at myself and my business when i look at my website because it gives me an a reflection back of, okay, that's where i'm at now. so i like it actually as a kind of a journey of business and personal development. that's the way i see the the website. so, it depends whether you have a wordpress website, a wix, or squarespace, or something else, in terms of what you actually need to do. so i'm gonna focus on wordpress websites because this is where you as the business owner have to do, the more, tasks than somebody who has a wix or squarespace or some other website. what's really important is that you keep an eye on with updating wordpress, the plugins, and the themes. because what happens if that isn't done regularly is that hackers could hack, one's website and the website owner might not even be aware that they've been hacked, and that could go on for a really, really long time. they couldn't realize that at all. then the website could also be infected with malware. and then from then on, it's just, you know, you need to basically try to either review, remove the malware and sometimes just start again with a fresh website. so you don't want to have that happen, and this is why it's really important to keep an eye and keep always software updated, and that's actually also quite an easy thing to do. it's not a very complicated thing to do.

Sarah:  yeah. it happened to me twice. and i can't like, even though i updated the the plugins, so i was just super, super happy that i had a backup. actually, i had a backup from the the host, but then an additional backup that i pay for annually. so, yeah, it's just such a pain when you get hacked. and oftentimes, you don't, yeah, you don't notice it unless you're on your website, like, daily and or, of course, you have, clients tell you that, you know, something's wrong there. so yeah.

Uta:  yeah. and thank you for mentioning. that is the other really important task to do is to have regular backups. very often, the hosting companies offer that as part of the package, but it's good to have an additional set of backups, for yourself that you can also automate, have that backed up every, you know, week or however you want to choose to, to a a drive. and, yes, always good to have a backup and to be able to restore the website.

Sarah:  yeah. what about, you know, from the visitor's perspective, i always hear that speed, is a big deal. i think it's a big deal for seo, but it's obviously also kind of important for the the visitor. so maybe the question is, well, what makes a website fast or on the other hand slow? and how can we prevent that or or keep up with maintenance to not have that happen?

Uta:  yeah. so one of the major, reasons why websites are slow are because there could be very large images or media files, a lot of animations, that just make the website slow load quite slowly. so whenever, you know, somebody uploads a new blog post or any other image to always optimize the images is really important. it's also important from a sustainability point of view because the it's smaller in data, so it takes less storage space. so, optimizing images is really important. and, also clearing out, you know, your media, folder once a week, you know, so often to, delete any images that, you know, one doesn't need. sometimes, you know, people upload several versions of the same image because the sizing wasn't quite correct, but then they leave all the old versions on there. so good housekeeping really helps with that.

Sarah:  yeah. yeah. that's so true. like and and informing everybody who's working on your website, because i had that happen where i was very diligent, but i hadn't thought of, oh, i need to inform my virtual assistant who's actually doing all the podcast show notes. and and so we have these mega big files, image files, and i couldn't understand why this was happening. so yeah. like, every anybody who touches your website needs to understand, a, how you minimize the images and b, why we're doing it. so so so true. yeah.

Uta:  yeah. so and, mhmm.

Sarah:  yeah. so explain to us you mentioned, you know, it also matters from a sustainability perspective. like, explain that to us because i remember just a few years back, i i'm working with, with the company called pond foundation where i do, measure my emissions and and buy, credits every year. but before that, i well, i actually while i was talking to them, i was like, well, i don't really have i don't really create any emissions because i'm a digital business, and so, you know, there's nothing there. and then they were explaining to me how this works. so please do explain it to our listeners as well.

Uta:  yes. i mean, it's so easy to forget or to not even think about that actually everything that we're doing online, every single email that we send, every website that we load, every youtube video that we watch, that everything that all takes electricity, it takes energy, and it takes storage space to show all of that to us. and, so that is, where energy is being used up, and it accumulates quite a bit because there is just so much data, you know, going back and forth all the time. so, this is why just be becoming being conscious of that or being aware that just because we live having a digital business and we don't take drive the car and we don't take flights to visit clients doesn't mean that we don't use our resources and energy. we do. so this is where it's really, important to be mindful of. and, in the, green website field or sustainability field, there are several, agencies now that actually specifically focus on building low carbon websites because that is important to, you know, the the the world consumers and businesses.

Sarah:  yeah. thank you. thanks so much. i have actually a specific question, that is gonna help me, but hopefully also others. what about videos? i think when we embed videos in our website, that's that's really bad, even worse than than pictures. right? is that correct? and and if it is, well, what do we do instead? like, it's very awkward to just include the link and then have people have to go to youtube. so what what do you recommend to clients who want to embed a video on not on a home page. i think that's kind of passe. it's but but maybe on a replay page or, you know, something like that.

Uta:  well, they're embedding the the video. you're actually just creating the link. you're not uploading the video and the, you know, the huge file to your website. so it's not being stored on the website. so whether it's being watched, you know, via your website or on youtube directly isn't really going to make much of a difference in that sense because it's just displaying it for your website, but it's not stored in any way on your website.

Sarah:  okay. so it's the storage part that would be bad, that would yeah. slow down my website and and be, yeah, create more. okay. so so the embedding part doesn't is not the problem. okay.

Uta:  no.

Sarah:  good. so you host it on youtube and then you just get the the embed code.

Uta:  exactly.

Sarah:  okay. great. wonderful. what other maintenance tasks did we did we not mention yet any anything else that comes to mind before we wrap up here and you give us a little sneak peek?

Uta:  i mean, you're going to hear, i'm sure, a lot about that, you know, tonight in your workshop about seo. the website maintenance, is also really important for seo. so, you know, keeping checking, for example, that you don't have any dead links, for example, on the website. so this is also something can be done automatically. there are loads of websites that offer that, to remove any of the links. and then adding content monthly to really update your website, which is good for seo. searching engines love it that you have new content. if you don't really keep your website up to date and refresh it with content and information, then that doesn't send a good signal to the search engines. so that is another really key aspect of website maintenance is to continue to adding content, valuable content that, you know, your clients want to want to read.

Sarah:  that's a good point. because i kinda stopped blogging for a few months now. we need to go back there. because, yeah, i do have a few keywords that do really well. but what you're saying is, like, if i slow down and that i don't add new content, then that might slow down as well because the basically, the the the search crawls are gonna be like, well, this website is not active anymore.

Uta:  exactly.

Sarah:  okay. wow. interesting. well, give us a sneak preview of the workshop and what we're gonna go into there.

Uta:  yes. so in the workshop, we're going to go through more, all the activities of how to actually do the backup of the of the website, going to also share, a very easy process of how to add an accessibility wizard widget to your website, which is, of course, really important for websites in general, but also specifically for conscious businesses to make it really accessible to everyone. how to back up your website, your wordpress website, if, if you don't know how to do that. also, that's, a free backup plugin, so you don't need to pay any fees for that. same with the accessibility widget. also, that's also for free. so there's more hands on, activities looking at, you know, one's websites. i'm also there, of course, to answer any questions, that people might have regarding to the back end workings of the wordpress website.

Sarah:  yeah. i love that. and as always, on these collab workshops, we're gonna be putting people into breakout rooms. and i can i just thought of this now is, like, have them as accountability buddies going forward? so after the workshop, maybe they can check-in with each other and say, hey, did you upload that plug in and and and give each other feedback on their websites? i think it's so valuable to have this peer collaboration going on as well.

Uta:  absolutely. yes. definitely.

Sarah:  well, thanks so much for, being here, uta. and and please let people know where they can find you, and then i'll tell them how to get to the workshop as well. but go ahead and please share your website and any resources.

Uta:  right. yeah. well, thank you so much, sarah, for having me, and i'm really looking forward to the workshop. and, yes. so people can find me on carrot and karma dot com. and my name is ute de montes, and i'm also on linkedin.

Sarah:  love that that website name, carrot and karma. very easy to remember because it just, yeah, stands out. yeah. it's wonderful. and and so if you feel like, yes, i definitely would like to, come to the workshop and and learn more and then actually roll back your sleeves and do some of these things that that just mentioned, go to humane dot marketing forward slash workshop. and as always, these workshops are held in our community, the humane marketing circle. and so you can join just for this session for a small donation. and, yeah, it would be lovely to see you. so this is on march fifth. and, again, you go to humane dot marketing forward slash workshop, and we look forward to seeing you there. mhmm. so much for being here, hoota.

Uta:  thank you.

Speaker 3:  i hope you got some great value from listening to this episode. please find out more about yuta and her work at carrot and karma dot com. and again, we'd love to have you join us in our community for this collab workshop with utah. you can sign up for a small donation at humane dot marketing forward slash workshop. you find the show notes of this at humane dot marketing forward slash h m two zero four. and on this beautiful page, you'll also find a series of offers such as the humane business manifesto, as well as my two books, marketing like we're human and selling like we're human, and soon my third book, business like we're human. thanks so much for listening and being part of a generation of marketers who cares for yourself, your clients, and the planet. we are change makers before we are marketers. so go be the change you want to see in the world. speak soon.

In this new episode titled "Is Slow Business More Humane," we discover the world of slow business with Andy Mort, a Slow Business Coach, songwriter, and sound artist.

This conversation challenges the prevalent "faster, more efficient" mentality in today's business world, offering a refreshing perspective on how entrepreneurs can incorporate spaciousness and human connection into their work.

It's the first of a series 'Sarah & Friends discussing Business Like We're Human topics'

So in this first episode of the series of 'Sarah & Friends discussing Business Like We're Human topics' we discussed:

• How Andy became a Slow Business Coach
• The relationship between inner peace, slowness, and its impact on clients and the community.
• The connection between spaciousness, innovation, and creativity in business.
• The contrast between the slow approach and the prevalent "faster, more efficient" mentality in business.
• The importance of human connection in business interactions, especially in the context of sales and client relationships.
• Practical first steps for entrepreneurs to incorporate more spaciousness in their life and business.
• and so much more

--

Is Slow Business More Humane?

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Sarah Santacroce: Andy. It's so good to see you again and have you on the humane marketing podcast welcome back.

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Andy Mort: Thank you so much. It is lovely to be with you again, Sarah. I love talking to you so.

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Sarah Santacroce: Yeah.

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Andy Mort: About this? Yeah.

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Sarah Santacroce: We always have great and deep conversations, and so I couldn't think of a better person than you to talk about this concept of

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Sarah Santacroce: slowing things down, and the question whether a slow business is a humane business and what all of that involves. So

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Sarah Santacroce: it's good to have you here. Why don't you explain a little bit how you got into this concept of being a slow business coach? It's been a few years now. And yeah, how has this evolved for you? And how does it

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Sarah Santacroce: feel in in your business? And how do people react to it? So explain it a little bit.

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Andy Mort: Yeah, yeah, sure. I mean, it's something that I didn't

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Andy Mort: necessarily set out to to do or to be. It's just something that has evolved really

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Andy Mort: over time of like working with people. And I've always worked with

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Andy Mort: introverted and highly sensitive people. So those who.

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Andy Mort: I guess, find the the pace of modern life, maybe a bit overstimulating at times.

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Andy Mort: And so there's been like this necessity of of slowness

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Andy Mort: for the sake of people's nervous systems. And you know, just being able to

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Andy Mort: focus and get clear on. You know what's important and what isn't, and all of that kind of thing.

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Andy Mort: But also there's been this, I guess increasing awareness in me that this is really

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Andy Mort: bad for all of us, and this whole mentality of.

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Andy Mort: you know, move fast and break things which has come from this sort of tech world and

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Andy Mort: has a is an appropriate tool in many situations in that world. But it, it seems to have

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Andy Mort: kind of permeated everything. And so there's this very reactive energy that I just feel in the world

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Andy Mort: around me. And that kind of comes into me. And it's in people. And this needs to be productive. And all of these words that you know you

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Andy Mort: obviously use a lot. And you're sort of rebelling against in many ways in what you do.

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Andy Mort: yeah. And so I guess what I do is is help people identify, you know. Where is that energy

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Andy Mort: taking me away from what I want to be doing and who I am, and

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Andy Mort: the impact that I might want to have with my work or in my family in my relationship.

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Andy Mort: whatever it might be. And then to yeah, put into practice ways of

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Andy Mort: yeah, slowing, slowing down and making space

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Andy Mort: for the important things, and to

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Andy Mort: make space to do the things that matter more slowly as well. And this, yeah, this twist on the old productivity thing of like do more in less time. I think I love the idea of

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Andy Mort: doing doing less more slowly, because it allows you to go

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Andy Mort: deep. And it allows you to.

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Andy Mort: Yeah, get into the

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Andy Mort: the depths of it and the richness of it, and to do what what you feel

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Andy Mort: is important and that kind of thing. So.

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Andy Mort: Yes. So I have a community that yeah, my haven community is the real hub of of what I do.

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Andy Mort: So yeah, kind of coaching and group.

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Andy Mort: I'd say workshops. It's not really workshops. It's more sort of spaces to gather and to explore together.

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Andy Mort: And yeah, everything kind of flows out from there.

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Sarah Santacroce: Yeah, that's so good to hear, because it it means already that you're not just. You know, the crazy one who came up with this term, and people are like, what is he smoking? It really shows. No, there's people who resonate with that. And and you know they want to be in community with others that want to look at business more slowly. And

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Sarah Santacroce: I love what you said. It's it's not just slowing things down, but doing less

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Sarah Santacroce: and doing those things even more slowly. So it's really the doing. Less part, I guess, has to do with creating the spaciousness for other things as well. And that's kind of what I talk about in the business. Like we're human book. It's it's not just this.

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Sarah Santacroce: you know, creating spaciousness to then like back in the days, you know, the 4 h work week kind of approach where? Where? You then, just, you know, spend your money by sitting on a beach somewhere in the Philippines.

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Sarah Santacroce: It really is creating spaciousness to be more human, to have the time to reconnect with humans or with nature, or to become an activist, or, you know, like spaciousness outside of your business, so that

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Sarah Santacroce: you can do the things a human wants to do and and find that

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Sarah Santacroce: I think almost like if we don't create that spaciousness, we don't remember what as humans, we could also do instead of just working.

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Andy Mort: Yeah.

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Sarah Santacroce: What does that bring up for you.

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Andy Mort: I mean, and I and I think what you

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Andy Mort: emphasize and do so well as well is is integrating that spaciousness and slowness into the into the model of how you do business. And I think that feels like you think about the 4 h work week. There's almost this separation.

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Andy Mort: Between the work you

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Andy Mort: like. Plough everything into this part of your life, so that then you can do this over here.

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Sarah Santacroce: Right.

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Andy Mort: And

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Andy Mort: while I think you know you, you obviously want space around work and not to be working all the time.

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Andy Mort: Actually, there's something that you can bring into the work that you do do, and the business that you're building

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Andy Mort: that puts that spaciousness and the the approach of slowness and marketing like you're human into that thing itself as well. So that

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Andy Mort: there's a yeah, you're bringing the whole of you to the whole of what you do.

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Andy Mort: And so, yeah, that kind of when you were just saying that

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Andy Mort: kind of brought that up for me and and them the modelling of a different way of

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Andy Mort: doing the business itself, and thinking about business, and thinking about what

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Andy Mort: what your business is enabling, both in terms of what you're maybe producing, or the service that you're offering, but also in the lives and the model that you're setting, and the example that you're setting to those who do business with you, and how that can become a contagious thing that

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Andy Mort: that spreads. And yeah, that sense of

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Andy Mort: of slowness or spaciousness or stillness that people might take away from an encounter with you.

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Sarah Santacroce: Hmm.

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Andy Mort: Then goes out into the world. And I think, as I was saying before, there's like that other energy that I feel very strongly at the moment where that sort of hustle grind culture like, and the 4 h work week, you know, do things. Really, it doesn't matter what you do, but just make money so that you can

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Andy Mort: then go off and do your own thing, or whatever

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Andy Mort: like that. That's a very palpable stress energy that

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Andy Mort: I think also is contagious, and spreads and leaves us feeling a bit.

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Andy Mort: I don't know. Pulled in all sorts of different directions.

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Andy Mort: overwhelmed, burning out all of those things.

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Andy Mort: Yeah.

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Sarah Santacroce: I think it's kind of part of the old business model where we are working ourselves.

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Sarah Santacroce: you know, to exhaustion, and we were working so hard, and we. And then we hear this idea of working less. And so we squeeze even more into maybe less time. And then, obviously, we're so exhausted that we then need

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Sarah Santacroce: that rest. But that's not what to me a business like we're human. Looks like it is like you said so. Well, building the slowness and the spaciousness into the business, so that I don't feel exhausted. And then.

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Sarah Santacroce: you know, just need to lie on the beach. I still want to be able to have the energy to use my time, that I created the space that I created for for other things, whether it be yes, to, you know, refill my own battery by being in nature, but also by giving back. I think that to me is an important part. Is

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Sarah Santacroce: we talked just before we started to recording. And and I said, like business as usual is.

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Sarah Santacroce: I'm so tired of that concept because it really is the time where business should not be as usual anymore. And we do have, you know, kind of this responsibility also as entrepreneurs to yeah, to find solutions to come up with creative ideas on how we can.

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Sarah Santacroce: Yeah, make this world a better place for lack of better words. But that that's really what this is about. So I think.

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Sarah Santacroce: would you agree that the innovation and the creativity also needs that space?

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Sarah Santacroce: What have you seen with your community? What.

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Andy Mort: Yeah, absolutely. And I love making space for collaborative

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Andy Mort: innovation and creativity as well. And

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Andy Mort: seeing what emerges. So one of the things that we do is

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Andy Mort: what I call a phrase maze where we just take we have a monthly theme.

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Andy Mort: So this month we're recording this in February. Our monthly theme is confidence. It's a very, very broad

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Andy Mort: theme. And then can I break that down into

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Andy Mort: you know what? What are some phrases or idioms, or quotes or ideas associated with confidence that come to mind.

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Andy Mort: and then kind of take them, break them down a bit, try and play with them and talk about, you know.

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Andy Mort: Okay, what does that bring up for you that's going on in your life at the moment. And

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Andy Mort: those kinds of things.

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Andy Mort: And then how can we maybe play with this creatively? Is there a is there a poem in this? Is there some kind of

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Andy Mort: painting, or a song, or whatever that you could just

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Andy Mort: have a go with the yeah playing with experimenting with, and

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Andy Mort: both in the discussions that we have, and then the sort of follow up creative expression.

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Andy Mort: You just see things that you would never be able to

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Andy Mort: imagine coming up from the outset. And I love this sort of experimental approach to life in general, but like

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Andy Mort: trusting, trusting the hive, trusting the collaborative potential.

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Andy Mort: the and when you talk about, you know, solutions to issues and the importance of business

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Andy Mort: being involved in looking at the the wider picture of how the world is right now, and thinking, you know, what role do we play in

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Andy Mort: changing the direction that we're maybe moving in or

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Andy Mort: creating a better future, or whatever it is.

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Andy Mort: Actually, I think, collaboration working with

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Andy Mort: one another as partners, whatever that looks like, whether that's a business partnership or just socially doing stuff together

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Andy Mort: with a within values and with a vision, or whatever it is

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Andy Mort: that's so important. And again that turns business as usual on its head, because.

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Andy Mort: you know, seeing it won't mention who it is. But like the there's something going on at the moment that I'm looking into that

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Andy Mort: is a. It's this extraction that business people have to see

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Andy Mort: like the old way is seeing opportunities, being opportunistic and thinking, how can I capitalize on that and turn it back to me and make money from it?

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Andy Mort: Rather than how can I

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Andy Mort: be part of this movement. How can I, you know, contribute to this? What what does it need from me in order for this thing that I

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Andy Mort: connect with and believe in? Maybe it's an idea, or like a social movement, or whatever.

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Andy Mort: Yeah, what role can I take in that? That

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Andy Mort: makes me part of it rather than makes me possess it.

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Andy Mort: And I think that it's yeah, really important to start seeing business

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Andy Mort: through that eye through those eyes as well.

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Andy Mort: Yeah, if that.

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Sarah Santacroce: Yeah, I'm so glad you brought up collaboration. And and this movement from we me to we that I mentioned in the in the book as well is kind of like.

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Sarah Santacroce: it's so aligned with slowing things down, because in order to collaborate, you do need to

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Sarah Santacroce: slow things down and actually let relationships develop right? Because the old way. And I'm definitely raising my hand here. The old way was affiliate marketing. That was like the big thing. And it was like, Oh, we are collaborating, but we weren't really collaborating, because we were just trying to

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Sarah Santacroce: tap into each other's reach to get more money for each of us, right? And and yeah, that's just that's just not human humane, whatever ethical even be.

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Sarah Santacroce: So in order to actually.

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Sarah Santacroce: yeah, create and nurture these relationships. Well, you need time. You, you know, an email exchange is not going to create

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Sarah Santacroce: relationship trust, based relationship. You need to invest the time in it. So that's another thing that is part of the business. But if you don't have the spaciousness to invest there, then it will always be transactional, and you will not actually be able to.

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Sarah Santacroce: you know.

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Sarah Santacroce: collaborate or create a movement or create the community because you don't have the time. You're always short on time. And you're always

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Sarah Santacroce: yeah struggling to create more transactions. Really.

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Andy Mort: I think it's such a good point. Yeah, that transactional.

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Andy Mort: because it is yet that affiliate model or the you work with people to combine

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Andy Mort: audiences or whatever it is. But yeah, ultimately, it's a

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Andy Mort: I'll scratch your back. You scratch my back. And yeah.

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Andy Mort: you don't have time, as you say, for like relationships. And you know, anything really

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Andy Mort: valuable at a human level in life takes time.

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Andy Mort: and it takes a lot of that liminal in between space that

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Andy Mort: is not controlled in the sense of being outcome, oriented or like. We've got to achieve this in the time that we are together. It's like, actually, you think about the most meaningful friendships

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Andy Mort: they're full of just time with and just time being.

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Andy Mort: And again, like some of these gatherings that we have.

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Andy Mort: it's and it takes a huge amount of I guess

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Andy Mort: faith in the process, or just allowing almost surrender. Just allowing things. Okay. Whatever is going to come out of this is going to come out of it, and I can't contrive it or control it from the outset. But I can trust that

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Andy Mort: hike.

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Andy Mort: Whatever will be will be here, and where. The more I've experienced doing that.

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Andy Mort: the more surprised I've been, and the more

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Andy Mort: like interesting things have come out of

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Andy Mort: gatherings, or, you know, conversations, or whatever. It is really difficult to

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Andy Mort: to remember that like you're like, right, need an agenda need a structure. And and it's like. Yes, structure can help with

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Andy Mort: keeping things going to a certain degree. But it's like you need to know where

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Andy Mort: planning becomes over planning, and it actually suffocates what might come out of it.

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Sarah Santacroce: I talk about this new business intimacy, and that

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Sarah Santacroce: is that exactly what you're talking about is like, usually in business. We have this way of being, which is very task oriented like, even if we do collaborate. There's, you know, a way to collaborate the old way, which is like, Okay, here's the agenda. Here's what we need to do. It's all about the doing right instead of

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Sarah Santacroce: yeah, allowing the time to just be and get to know each other. And and and yeah, that takes courage. I think that's the word came up when you were speaking. I'm like it takes a lot of courage to.

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Sarah Santacroce: you know. Bring this new business intimacy where we're all wired to think. Well, business should be this way.

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Sarah Santacroce: Business should be transactional. Business should be professional business should be, you know, a certain way. And so all of a sudden, we come along. And we're like, we're, you know, gonna do things slowly and more relationship based. And and it's just like people are like, what what's going on here. But I think.

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Sarah Santacroce: I think, yeah, that's to me. That's that's a business like, we're human. That is like, we're actually being humans in our business. And it's also more humane to us, because then our business is just an extension of who we are, and as solopreneurs. Isn't that, isn't that what we want right.

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Andy Mort: So, and it speaks to. I always remember something that you said in the workshop that we did a while back, which was

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Andy Mort: just because it works. It doesn't mean it works for you.

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Andy Mort: And I think that's something important

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Andy Mort: when maybe having conversations with people about like, why would you? Why would you set up your business like this? Or why would you approach your business like this? Because actually.

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Andy Mort: business as usual, or these old ways still work to some degree. Or there are these things that work

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Andy Mort: and actually putting in that bit. But it doesn't work for me. There's something about that that. Yeah, it doesn't fit who I am, or what I believe

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Andy Mort: a business should contribute or should be doing in the world.

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Andy Mort: And so I love that little. It's a

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Andy Mort: an invitation to gentle rebelliousness. I think I see it as because.

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Andy Mort: yeah, it allows you to put yourself

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Andy Mort: and your own beliefs and your values and the things that matter to you at the heart of your business rather than being like. What are these strategies and tactics that everyone else is doing

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Andy Mort: that do maybe make a lot of money, or they make bring quick results, or whatever. So. But how do I feel, or how would I feel if I

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Andy Mort: achieved that in that way. And it's like.

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Sarah Santacroce: Yeah.

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Andy Mort: And from past experience I feel a bit icky, and I feel a bit like Oh, that didn't doesn't feel good to have done it like that.

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Andy Mort: So what? What would feel good to me? And you know, to me and to lots of people.

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Andy Mort: that kind of the slowness, the relational yeah, that spaciousness. Actually.

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Andy Mort: how can you make a business work with that at the heart of it? Is the question.

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Sarah Santacroce: Yeah.

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Sarah Santacroce: And to me, like the the 1st 2 books, marketing, like, we're, human and selling, like, we're human were very much about our ideal clients and bringing this, you know, gentleness and humane approach and ethical approach to our ideal clients. And business like we're human, is going to be more about

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Sarah Santacroce: us being in this business and and, like you said yes, finding out what works for us right, and feeling humane, and not exhausted and overwhelmed in our business so that we can actually do our life's work. And I used the peace sign as kind of part of the journey, because the idea is really to

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Sarah Santacroce: find your inner peace so that you can then bring change to the outer world. How do you see the relationship between inner peace and and you know, slowness. What have you seen from from your community, from your clients?

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Sarah Santacroce: Yeah, is this part of the journey.

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Andy Mort: That's a great question. Yeah,

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Andy Mort: yeah. And I guess I like, I'd like to think in.

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Andy Mort: I guess spirals and circles rather than

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Andy Mort: straight lines, and so that when you talk about the here, the journey.

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Andy Mort: it's a kind of coming coming back round and like what you know what comes first, st the inner peace or the slowness.

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Andy Mort: It's all a mix, and it's all kind of yeah. You're experimenting with things that bring you.

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Andy Mort: I suppose, bring you to a place of how we're defining inner peace, maybe integrity.

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Andy Mort: a sense of satisfaction with how, how I am doing things or what I

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Andy Mort: have let go, and I think that's a big part of the equation is

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Andy Mort: being at peace with the things that you

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Andy Mort: don't have the capacity or the time or the energy to do, and almost actively letting those things go.

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Andy Mort: because obviously slowing down requires, they said

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Andy Mort: admission, or this acknowledgement that I can't do everything you know, and there are loads and loads of things that I would love to be able to do. It's not just.

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Andy Mort: you know, pressures that other people are putting on me that oh, you need to do this. You should do that. It's like, no, there's loads of things in life that I would absolutely love to have a go at.

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Andy Mort: But I can't. You know I'm a finite human being. And so really, coming to a place of peace

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Andy Mort: with that is important. And yeah, I think there's a there's a a point of.

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Andy Mort: I guess calmness and satisfaction in

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Andy Mort: again the gentle rebelliousness of letting go of things and of saying.

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Andy Mort: Do you know what these are? The? These are the things that matter.

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Andy Mort: There's just a few sort of real keystone ideas or

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Andy Mort: things that are part of my business or part of my life that actually there my

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Andy Mort: focus right now they're the things I'm committing to, and everything else can

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Andy Mort: can fall away. And and that's okay.

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Andy Mort: So yeah, I don't know if that answers that question. But.

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Sarah Santacroce: Yeah, no, it totally doesn't. And

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Sarah Santacroce: it made me think of the word busy. You know how this is such a common word that we kind of throw around like a batch of honor that is part of the business world. Oh, if I'm busy, that means I'm successful, or that's how it's perceived.

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Sarah Santacroce: and so kind of making peace, making inner peace with this idea of

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Sarah Santacroce: maybe not wanting to be busy or wanting to be. What I start to say now is, I'm busy with life. And so that kind of, you know, can people can decide on their own? Well, what does that mean? Because if you're clearly, if you're saying I'm not busy. Well, people see that as something very bad, and they're like, Oh, no, I'm so sorry.

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Andy Mort: Yeah.

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Sarah Santacroce: Oh, your business is falling apart. You're not busy. So just making peace with this busyness thing and saying, Well, I'm not busy, but I am very focused, and I have very much clarity around the things that I do want to invest my time in. And and so it's, it's yeah. It doesn't give, give you this

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Sarah Santacroce: overwhelmed energy of that busyness does actually. So yeah.

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Andy Mort: Yeah, I love that. Yes, the words that we use are so

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Andy Mort: impactful, aren't they like? And yeah, I'm very aware of

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Andy Mort: someone says, how? How are things going?

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Andy Mort: So I'm busy.

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Sarah Santacroce: Okay.

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Andy Mort: Why have I said that?

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Andy Mort: But yeah, and also the

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Andy Mort: the yeah, really focusing in on the things that you want to do in the way that you want to do them. So like, recently, I've been

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Andy Mort: doing a lot more kind of hands on, I guess, creative.

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Andy Mort: So I've been doing a lot of collaging which I want to

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Andy Mort: been using. We have like a community Zine, that I put out once a month, and so I've been doing that for that.

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Andy Mort: But I also want to do more of that, for, like blog posts.

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Andy Mort: kind of featured images, and things that

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Andy Mort: until now, like constantly thinking like, oh, what? What's the most efficient way to to do that? Or like social media posts like? How can I

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Andy Mort: do them quicker? And all of that kind of thing.

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Andy Mort: And obviously, you know, generative AI is A is a big part of that question as well, or the conversation

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Andy Mort: there of like, how can you do things more efficiently and

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Andy Mort: be more productive and get more out there? And all of that stuff?

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Andy Mort: And actually.

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Andy Mort: yeah, I'm kind of asking. That question of myself is that useful? Does that does doing more and doing it more quickly.

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Andy Mort: give me more satisfaction, or like a sense of connection to what it is that I'm doing

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Andy Mort: and if not, what do I want to do more? Slowly? Again coming back to that question. Actually, I want to

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Andy Mort: put some time, and my humanity into some of these things that

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Andy Mort: we're being promised. We can do quicker if we take our humanity out of it.

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Andy Mort: And I really appreciate, you know, when you can tell that somebody has really put

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Andy Mort: themselves into a blog post or

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Andy Mort: even a social media post. It's like, Oh, I can see the human there, and I think it's becoming more and more obvious like.

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Andy Mort: however, you know, AI is getting more advanced. But there's still something of the uncanny about it that

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Andy Mort: is often quite evident or identifiable. And so

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Andy Mort: I don't know. I just see there's this moment that we're entering now, where there's this

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Andy Mort: call for more humanness, and there's a

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Andy Mort: an appetite for it whether we're consciously aware of that appetite or not. We see people. And it's like, Oh, yeah, I want people I want. There's a human there. And

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Andy Mort: I just find that, yeah, really attractive and compelling.

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Sarah Santacroce: Yeah.

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Sarah Santacroce: And I'm glad you brought up AI. That was going to be my last question as well like, How does that play into all of this slowness, where everything we see out there is more, quicker and more efficient and got to do more. Right? So yeah, I love how you brought that up. And then also the yeah, the need

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Sarah Santacroce: for the human connection. And I think that's what we're both doing in our communities. And I think that's really a big part of business like we're human to bring in.

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Sarah Santacroce: not just a humanness in text, because

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Sarah Santacroce: again, that can be easily replaced by by AI, but the humanness in like real connection, even, you know. Obviously, it's going to be still using technology. So online.

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Sarah Santacroce: But but also they're slowing things down. We recently started introducing meaningful questions in our meetups. So they're based on

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Sarah Santacroce: on a deck of cards by Thomas, whom I've interviewed recently, and they're called who cards. And so we pick 2 cards, and they have meaningful questions on them. And so we just have, you know, basically half an hour conversations. And these questions are not business questions. They're personal questions, right?

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Sarah Santacroce: But it allows the community members to yeah, to really get to know one another and to talk about their worldview and

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Sarah Santacroce: and things like that, that matter in terms of building these

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Sarah Santacroce: relationships, this new business intimacy. And and yeah, even if I think about

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Sarah Santacroce: you know how I used to sell my workshops or programs, and how I'm selling them now like before. It really was a transaction click here, and you know, buy now. And now I'm for the marketing, like we're human program. No, I am always wanting to talk to the person right? It's like this. This business intimacy is like, well, yes, it's a group program. But I want to, you know, get to meet you. And I think

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Sarah Santacroce: that kind of approach people will start to look for and see. Am I being heard and seen, or am I just, you know, a number. And people just want the money.

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Andy Mort: How have you?

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Andy Mort: How have you found that? Because I aware of a

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Andy Mort: again a conditioning that we have, you know, when someone wants a conversation, especially in a business context

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Andy Mort: like my, I'd go into sort of a they're going to want to

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Andy Mort: sell something to me, because I'm so used to

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Andy Mort: yeah, it's almost the whole persuasion or influence movement of like, you need to get on the phone and actually talk to someone so that you can force the sale. And so and obviously, that's not. It's the opposite of what you're doing, because it's like I want to connect. And I'm the same. I want to sort of yeah, reach out, have a human connection with people.

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Sarah Santacroce: Right.

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Andy Mort: And yeah, I wonder, have you experienced people's yeah sort of poised.

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Sarah Santacroce: Actually inbound. So I'm not, you know,

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Sarah Santacroce: proposing this conversation, but it's it's an option on the sales page. So they know that is a conversation they they pretty much already decided. Yes, I want to join, but there's no way that you can just buy now. They have to sign up to talk to me, and then

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Sarah Santacroce: I don't have to. I'm not selling anything because they've seen the program details. And they basically just want to find out, am IA good fit for this program? Oftentimes they just want to meet me, and, you know, have a conversation. And so that's what we do. We just have a conversation. And then sometimes it's about figuring out, how, how can we set up a humane payment plan? So it's very.

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Sarah Santacroce: I think it it really lowers or or it calms people's nervous systems because they know what to expect.

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Sarah Santacroce: and so giving them so much information upfront, and then just saying, hey? You want to talk about this. I know this is a great program. I've been running this for many years. Let's talk about it. If this is a good fit. So so that's usually how how it works. I know I see what you mean like by

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Sarah Santacroce: imposing this conversation. I don't think people would. Yeah, they they would probably be like, no, she wants to sell me something. And unfortunately, yeah, that's the reputation that business has. Right? It's like, Oh, you're gonna pitch me your stuff? So so I think what would work in this case is

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Sarah Santacroce: is picking a specific topic

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Sarah Santacroce: and say, how do you feel about what's happening in the world, or this specific thing like what we just addressed right at the beginning, before we started recording like, that would be a great topic to reach out to someone and say, Hey, what's your take on this? Have you seen this? And then just have a conversation? But then obviously not comments at the end, pitch your program, but just connect.

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Andy Mort: Yeah, I love that idea. Yeah. And that sort of resonates with the

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Andy Mort: the who cards, as you're saying as well. And

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Andy Mort: the it's like exploring the prompts that we do where

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Andy Mort: actually they might feel irrelevant to business, or they might feel like

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Andy Mort: what a waste of time you're talking about something that's irrelevant to this thing that really matters. And it's like, actually, that thing will come up if it needs to come up. And these are like, you know, train tracks along which the conversation

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Andy Mort: goes, and you'll see the things that are

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Andy Mort: in that environment around people as they start to talk. And then

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Andy Mort: you, you might explore that, and it might give rise to something completely unexpected.

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Sarah Santacroce: Yeah.

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Andy Mort: Saying earlier. So yeah, I really love that.

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Sarah Santacroce: Yeah, one more thing I just thought of that I started doing is like, when I have an open workshop where I invite people outside of the community. I don't offer the recording for this workshop only to members, and so I do get some pushback every now and then for that, because people are just not used to it.

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Sarah Santacroce: You know they feel like, well, everybody else is offering a recording. Why aren't you? And and my answer is that I really.

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Sarah Santacroce: this is not just content. This is not just information. It really is part like, what I'm trying to show is the business like, we're human. So you're coming in as a human, and you participate. And

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Sarah Santacroce: and you know you get into breakout rooms and have conversations with peers about this topic. And and so.

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Sarah Santacroce: being in the in presence on Zoom is actually really important. I understand that in terms of you know, everybody's lives and time zones. Sometimes it doesn't work.

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Sarah Santacroce: But then you're really not like, just by getting the information you're not getting the actual message.

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Andy Mort: Yeah.

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Sarah Santacroce: Of that event or work.

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Andy Mort: More to it, isn't there? Yes, which is, you can't put into words the difference. It's like so like with the Zine that I mentioned earlier, which is called coming to our senses.

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Andy Mort: I've been doing. There's like a Pdf

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Andy Mort: visual version that I put out each month.

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Andy Mort: But I've also done audio and video versions. So I, you know, compose some music and then narrate what's.

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Sarah Santacroce: Content.

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Andy Mort: From the Zine over the top, and it's usually about 40 min long. And so we have a session on Zoom together. At the end of the month where I just play that video. And we just sit together and watch it.

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Andy Mort: And yeah, people have mentioned, like

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Andy Mort: having watched previous ones just on the sort of Youtube video

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Andy Mort: and then coming to their 1st live session with it, like the difference

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Andy Mort: it makes being there with others watching it live, and whether it's sort of the fact, you're not being distracted by a million one other things.

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Andy Mort: Or it's

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Andy Mort: you're aware that you're in presence. The presence of other like. There are people all around the world

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Andy Mort: there, at that same time doing the same thing as you.

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Andy Mort: and or something else like. It's really difficult to PIN down exactly what it is, but

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Andy Mort: the meaning of it, and the way that it lands in people is so much more than if they're just watching a video on their own.

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Andy Mort: she is speaks to, speaks to what you're saying there as well. Yeah.

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Sarah Santacroce: Yeah, yeah, good. I guess one of the

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Sarah Santacroce: final questions would be like, How how

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Sarah Santacroce: entrepreneurs who are listening to this. And they're like, yeah, I could definitely use some more spaciousness in in my life and business. What would be like a 1st step that you would

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Sarah Santacroce: tell them to something to look at in their business, or something to do or not do. Probably.

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Andy Mort: Yeah, 1st step.

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Andy Mort: I think. And he I mean, he's

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Andy Mort: say all the time, but sort of just allowing yourself to to notice what matters to you in what you do and what

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Andy Mort: brings you satisfaction? And I've been exploring this this word satisfaction with a coaching client over the past

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Andy Mort: sort of 6 months or so and different sources of satisfaction.

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Andy Mort: And yeah, really reflecting on.

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Andy Mort: you know what's the most satisfying thing to you about the way that you approach your business. What's the most satisfying thing to you to hear from a client? What's what is satisfying.

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Andy Mort: you know, at the end of a day like

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Andy Mort: what has happened in a satisfying day, or whatever it is like. Just

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Andy Mort: yeah. Thinking about those different levels of satisfaction.

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Sarah Santacroce: Yeah, and then, yeah, building a picture around that

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Sarah Santacroce: and then doing Murray condo on all the other things that.

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Andy Mort: Yeah.

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Sarah Santacroce: Doing, and are not satisfying right.

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Andy Mort: Yeah. And maybe yeah, because it's like the question of boundaries. It's

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Andy Mort: are you moving towards? If you move towards the things that are satisfying. Will the other things just fall away? Or

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Andy Mort: do you need to actively

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Andy Mort: extract certain things? It's most likely a mixture of both. But I think, yeah, for me. The first, st the starting point is moving towards the things that you know that matter most, and doing

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Andy Mort: things in the way that I want to do them.

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Andy Mort: And then, actually, those other things might naturally just, I'm no longer doing that interesting.

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Andy Mort: Okay, I don't need to bring it back.

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Andy Mort: Yeah.

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Sarah Santacroce: Great.

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Sarah Santacroce: Yeah. And then I mean, you're such a creative. You create your compose your own music and talking about collages and all of that so bringing more

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Sarah Santacroce: creativity, like just giving yourself permission to be more creative in your business. I think that comes with the that permission of letting go of the shoulds, you know, like we are

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Sarah Santacroce: like copying so much of what other people are telling us to do. But if you

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Sarah Santacroce: realize oh, but that is not actually satisfying than just going into this permission of well, what if I do it differently and more creatively? How would that? Yeah, give me more satisfaction? Right?

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Andy Mort: Definitely, yeah, and your creative voice.

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Andy Mort: Just allowing that to to bubble up and be part of

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Andy Mort: the way you express yourself through your business and humor as well. I think humor is a big part of that like.

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Sarah Santacroce: M.

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Andy Mort: Doing things that make you laugh, doing things that yeah, you.

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Sarah Santacroce: Yeah playfulness.

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Andy Mort: Play you playful? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.

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Andy Mort: Yeah. Because people connect to that absolutely.

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Sarah Santacroce: Lovely.

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Sarah Santacroce: so good to talk to you, Andy, please do share about your community, and where else people can find you.

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Andy Mort: Yeah, I mean, the best place is is the haven. So the hyphen haven.co

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Andy Mort: everything. I've kind of brought everything that I do

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Andy Mort: with this in respect to what I've been talking about today

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Andy Mort: under that banner. Now. So you, there's yeah a bunch of

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Andy Mort: free stuff there, you can join the community, join us for some live events and things and

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Andy Mort: get the podcast through there.

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Andy Mort: yeah, just head there. Thank you, Sarah, this is yeah, it's been such a delight to talk to you. And I love talking about these things in this way. So thank you for this

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Andy Mort: invitation. It's been lovely.

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Sarah Santacroce: Thank you. Yeah, thanks for the listeners who slowed down with us and are still listening. So thanks again, Andy, and we'll stay in touch and speak soon.

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Andy Mort: Thank you. Absolutely.

In this episode of the Humane Marketing Podcast, we're joined by Kelly Drewett to explore the art of getting your content found by the right people.

Kelly shares her expertise on conscious websites and sustainable SEO, unpacking how businesses can create effortless, human-centered experiences for their audience. We dive into the importance of understanding your audience, choosing the right keywords, and humanizing SEO strategies to make meaningful connections.

Tune in for an insightful conversation that blends technical know-how with a touch of humanity.

Here's what we covered:

• Conscious websites and sustainable SEO: What does this tagline mean to Kelly?
• SEO as matchmaking: The role of understanding your audience when choosing the right keywords.
• Humanizing SEO: Strategies for making the technical process of SEO more personal and audience-focused.
• Balancing SEO and authenticity: Is there a trade-off between ranking well and staying true to your brand's voice? How do you navigate it?
• Avoiding SEO overwhelm: Practical advice for entrepreneurs to focus on what truly matters without getting lost in SEO "best practices."
• and a preview of the Collab Workshop on February 5th

--

Speaker 1: hello, humane marketers. welcome back to the humane marketing podcast, the place to be for the generation that cares. this is a show where we talk about running your business in a way that feels good to you, is aligned with your values, and also resonates with today's conscious customers because it's humane, ethical, and non pushy. i'm sarah zaneck rocha, your hippie turned conscious business coach for quietly rebellious entrepreneurs and change makers, mama bear of the humane marketing circle and renegade author of marketing like we're human, selling like we're human, and soon also my third book, business like we're human. if after listening to the show for a while, you're ready to move on to the next level and start implementing and would welcome a community of like minded, quietly rebellious entrepreneurs who discuss with transparency what works and what doesn't work in business, then we'd love to welcome you in our humane marketing circle. if you're picturing your typical facebook group, let me paint a new picture for you. this is a closed community of like minded entrepreneurs from all over the world who come together in two meetups per month to hold each other accountable and build their business in a conscious and sustainable way. we all share with transparency and vulnerability what works and what doesn't work in our business so that you can figure out what works for you instead of keep throwing spaghetti on the wall and seeing what sticks. find out more at humane dot marketing forward slash circle. twice per year, i host my signature program, the marketing like we're human, aka the client resonator program live in a deep dive into the seven p's of the humane marketing mandala, you will learn to market from within. this program is for you if you want and need to get more clients, but want to share your message in an ethical and humane way. if you want to make a difference with your work. if you are just starting out or if you have been in business for a while, but haven't really found the marketing activities that work for you. or also if you are pivoting your business from business as usual to your life's work and want to radically change the way you get clients. find out more at humane dot marketing forward slash program. and finally, if you prefer one on one support from me, my humane business coaching could be just what you need, whether it's for your marketing, sales, general business building, or help with your big idea like writing a book. i'd love to share my brain and my heart with you together with my almost twenty years business experience and help you grow a sustainable business that is joyful and sustainable. if you love this podcast, wait until i show you my mama bear qualities as my one on one client. find out more at humane dot marketing forward slash coaching.

Sarah0: hello, friends. welcome back. today's conversation fits under the p of promotion. and if you're a regular here, you know that i'm organizing the conversations around the seven p's of the humane marketing mandala. if you're new here and don't know what i'm talking about, you can download your one page marketing plan with the humane marketing version of the seven p's of marketing at humane dot marketing forward slash one page. the number one and the word page. and this then comes with seven email prompts to really help you reflect on these different piece for your business. today, i'm having a wonderful conversation with kelly drewitt about getting your content found by the right people, or in other words, seo, search engine optimization. and i'll tell you about kelly just in a second. but first, allow me to just give you a little reminder, especially if you're not on my mailing list, that i'm hosting another live round of the marketing like we're human program. this is my signature program that i've been hosting since two thousand nineteen, which is part self development, inner development, part pragmatic, out there marketing and business advice. in short, it teaches you how to market from within so that you become a client resonator. for the past five years, i've been running the marketing like we're human program as a three month program to really deliver this transformation to market from within so that it resonates with your ideal clients. but i think we can all agree that we're living through some unusual times and sometimes quite rough times for entrepreneurs. and what worked five years ago doesn't necessarily work anymore today. so here are the three main reasons why i decided to experiment with a more condensed and also, therefore, a more budget friendly version of my signature program. first of all, the economic landscape looks very different from what it did five years ago. and many of us have either less available cash for investing in ourselves, or we just kinda wanna hold on to that cash because there's so much uncertainty. second, blocking ten ninety minute calls for a program is a challenge for many. and so that's another reason why i will experiment this round with a shortened version. and then finally, also our consciousness has really evolved as well. so i find that participants are much more ready for humane marketing, and i can pick them up right where they're at. so another reason to experiment with a shorter version of of my program. so what does this condensed version, look like? well, the online portion of the program is the same, the video course and the workbooks. and then instead of ten live group calls, we'll go with five. so, i'm basically taking two models into one call. and if we need an additional call, we'll add one at the end. and, of course, the investment is reduced substantially from, seventeen hundred and fifty to nine hundred and fifty for the program. so, yeah, i'm i'm just wanting to experiment because i want this to be accessible to entrepreneurs. right? and so i'm experimenting with, with this cohort for this round, with these conditions. so i already have wonderful humans signed up for, for this cohort, and i'm just anticipating a wonderful group of change makers to kick off twenty twenty five. if this is the first time you hear about the program, this is for you if you want and need to get more clients, but you want to share your message in an ethical and humane way. you want to make a difference with your work. maybe you're just starting out or have been in business for a while, but haven't really found the marketing activities that work for you. also, maybe you are pivoting your business from the business as usual to your life's work and want to radically change the way you get clients. so if any of this resonates, please go ahead and book a call with me, via the orange button on the invitation page at humane dot marketing forward slash program. we start on january thirtieth, so there's still time to, go through it, read it all, look at all the testimonials. there's tons of testimonials and case studies, whole case studies on this page. so have a look, and then, let's have a human conversation around it. alright. thanks for letting me share that here. now back to kelly and getting your content found by the right people. so kelly druid has more than twenty five years of experience in website development and search engine optimize optimization seo. she is passionate about helping you improve your seo and really develops user centric wordpress websites optimized for search engines and provides technical seo as well as helps you create unique seo friendly content. so that sounds all very technical, but i promise, if you listen to this conversation, you will find out that it's actually very human and humane. kelly also used to be a member of the humane marketing circle, so she is very much aligned with our values. and then we cannot wait to have her back for a collab workshop in our community. so without further ado, let's listen to this conversation about getting your content found by the right people.

Sarah: hi, kelly. it's good to have you back on the humane marketing podcast. welcome.

Kelly: hi, sarah. really nice to be here.

Sarah: yeah. lovely to reconnect. you were on the podcast once before and my community, the humane marketing circle, which you used to also be a member of, wanted you back for another collab workshop. so that's what we're doing. we're just recording a kind of introduction, episode, and then we'll plug the workshop at the end so that listeners, if they're like, oh, i i wanna learn more about, kind of like the humane approach to seo from kelly. hopefully, they'll join us. so let's just talk about your approach to seo and, you know, for those who may not know what seo even stands for, you can you can, explain that. but i picked up the, the tagline basically from your website where you say conscious websites, sustainable seo. so maybe start us off there and tell us what that means to you.

Kelly: yeah. so i originally was a website designer. i am a website designer. but, over the years, over the twenty six years that my business has been running, i've got i know it's amazing. i've i've been working it out this year, and it's incredible. i started doing the whole website design side of stuff. and then sort of halfway through that time, i just wondered why some websites were ranking and some websites weren't. and, so i went in to investigate why stuff worked on search engines and stuff didn't. and i just got really into that side of stuff. so the reason that i say it is conscious websites because websites will rank when they are inclusive. so, basically, if the text is big enough for everybody to see, if there is contrast in the colors of the website so that people can see the text on the buttons. or, for example, a lot of people have those big hero images that go all the way across the screen, and then they might have text in front of it. and oftentimes, you can't see what the text says because it's white on, i don't know, a snowy mountain background or something like that. so it's very hard to read. and that's where you have to be really conscious about whether or not people can read and click your website. so that helps with search engine optimization. so being very clear, very transparent, ensuring that the the visitors can use your website, that helps your seo. and then, therefore, it's sustainable because you stick to the top of search engines once you rank well. usually, you'll fluctuate a little up up and down one or two places for different search terms, but you will stick. so organic seo is sustainable. so that's why i've got that tagline.

Sarah: mhmm. yeah. that that makes a lot of sense. and it and it feels like it's conscious to the website owner because you have to be conscious and apply consciousness. yeah. but it's also conscious, because, like you said, it's inclusive and it's, you know, it's a website created in integrity, rather than just to trick, the people or to trick even the search engines. right?

Kelly: exactly. yeah. i that's the side of organic seo that i really love is the fact that it is conscious. it is inclusive. and i have i've had a business owner say to me before, but i don't want to, that a a person that's visually impaired will not be able to do the sport that i'm offering. you know? so then that's not their target market. and, yes, that is completely valid. it's just that search engines will, reward the website if you're making it better for people that are visually impaired. if you think about our moms and our dads and things like that or even you know, i'm wearing glasses now as well. yeah. that's exactly. and you're looking at a website, and it's got teeny tiny writing or it's really, really light and thin and you can't really read it, you're not gonna stick around on that website because you just can't use it. and the search engines can see that. they know in the code this is very narrow text or it's very small text. and so that is not you're not thinking about your visitor if you're using that kind of font. and there's lots of little things like that that the the search engines look for and just they will rank you higher if you're doing those things better.

Sarah: it's interesting because it's kind of the common sense, things that when you hear seo, you don't think of those things. you you think of, you know, search engine optimization already. it's like this tech term, and you think kind of of these tech bros who are tricking the search engines. and yeah.

Kelly: you can submit a tags, and you think about tags. and you're like, oh my gosh. where's my title tag? and is is the structure okay? and and, yes, those things are completely a part of seo, and you have you need to do those things as well. but it does come down to, that design of the website as well. so that there's a design side to seo, and there is a tech side to seo. and, obviously, there's that content side as well. so there's three three parts.

Sarah: three parts. yeah. so when you when you say, provide an effortless experience for your audience, you mean all of those things combined. right?

Kelly: yeah. so the journey around a website is, another thing that search engines will, pick up on. so if you've got, say, a blog post that you've written and you're referring to another part a blog, another blog post, or another resource that you've maybe taken a little bit of information from, when you link to that resource, you should link the text within the content. so within protect the the the words within the text instead of, like, putting it at the end of the blog post. because when you're using the text in within the content, it helps the user journey. so someone's reading, ah, i want to find more about find out more about that. they can click straight on that link instead of sticking it right down at the bottom, and they've completely forgotten what they've they've read. so it's thinking about that user journey and pushing them around the website easily.

Sarah: mhmm. yeah. so so really creating this path for them. and then maybe also from that new page that they clicked on, then leading them to another page. right? like, from what i remember from seo or just website use in general, it's like we want them we want the person to be on our website as long as possible. so that's why we want to take them on this journey and not just click away after they just read, you know, this amazing blog post that we spent hours and hours writing. so

Kelly: yeah. so this is what our, workshop will be about. it's basically about the keywords for real people, and it's writing that content for real people as well. so that content lands with the audience. it lands with the visitor. it's really relevant to them, and you're taking them on that journey through your website. so it's super easy and super interesting and really fun. i mean, seo is fun, she says. trying to convince everybody else in the world.

Sarah: well, yeah, i i think that's what attracts me to your approach so much because it's really about resonance at play, really. it's like what we're trying to do is make marketing easy for ourselves. and by using the right keywords, we are then attracting the right people to to our content. and then from there, take them on this journey. right? so so in a way yeah, it's it's this resonance that i that i always talk about, and i i couldn't imagine a more fun way than just have people come to your website and then sign up to your newsletter and without having to do, something constantly. yes. you have to create the content, but that usually then that sits there and hopefully you get a good keyword that just keeps getting the people coming back and back. right?

Kelly: it has longevity. yeah. that's what seo is so powerful for and getting those news at the sign ups, as you say. and, oh, i was i suddenly thought of something then, but i it's it's completely gone out of my mind because i'm not seeing you.

Sarah: they'll come back. yeah. yeah. yeah. so in a way, what we're doing is we're playing matchmaking. we're trying to, you know, attract the right audience and and and use the right keywords for that. so so maybe to me, what it sounds like understanding your audience is actually the first and bigger step to to then figuring out, well, what are my keywords? usually, when you talk to keywords to new entrepreneurs, they just think of, you know, let's say they're a hair salon in, you know, lausanne. well, they think their keyword is hair salon in in lausanne. right? but those are not well, okay. for a hair salon, i don't know if you've ever worked with one, but that's kind of difficult difficult example.

Kelly: i know exactly what you're getting at, though. and it's actually what i was thinking about, and i just forgot. but it when you're thinking about something like hair salon, lausanne, what business owner the mistake business owners make is to try to rank for a keyword that everybody else is ranking for. now there are billions of key phrases that people put into the search engines. so you don't have to try to rank for the one the same keywords as the salon next door is ranking for. you can rank for a whole different set, and you might have different values. so therefore, you can rank in different ways. and so with the workshop that we're doing, we're going to look at researching those key phrases and making sure that we find the right key phrases for us and then target them because they've got low difficulty so they're easier to rank for. does that make sense?

Sarah: yeah. yeah. yeah. that's exactly what i was getting at. like, we we think, you you know, you would think that for me, a keyword is humane marketing. right? that might be, but it's probably the the one that is the the least easy to get any traction from because it has the word marketing in it and and everybody is already targeting the the word marketing. yes okay you know you have a humane, which is a little bit different, but people don't think of, putting that into the search engine. yeah. so so yeah.

Kelly: so they you kind of gotta go around the houses a little bit, but you're answering the questions that the people who you're targeting would right. ask, the ones that the things that they would put into the search engines.

Sarah: right.

Kelly: and there's lots of ways to get around that. because if you think about so take a geographical area like your salon, you what you're trying to do is build a hub of information. so you're building information about a industry or about a certain topic, and that builds up. the search engines can see you're doing such a good job here that in the end, you will be able to rank for the set the key phrases that you want to because you've done such a good job foundationally. and that's the point. it's kind of making the effort. it's not easy. i'm not saying it is, but it can be fun because you're providing that content for your visitors.

Sarah: i'm giggling quietly by myself because we were actually just talking about your haircut today yeah. before before we started recording. and so i'm like, oh, yeah. because you were complaining that it's really difficult to find a good hairdresser in france who's doing good haircuts for curly hair. so if i was a hairdresser in france, right. and i'm actually good at cutting curly hair. well, that would be an amazing keyword. right?

Kelly: such a niche key phrase. exactly.

Sarah: now i don't know how many, french people that maybe there's french people that was just don't have curly hair. so that's another thing that i need to find out. is there actually a market for that? but something like that is very, you know, narrow. and then maybe i can also somehow bring in more, of my values. the other thing i was thinking about in terms of hairdressers is, like, well, maybe i wanna i i wanna, resonate with an audience that doesn't wanna use chemicals. so i would, like, really make a niche case around using products that are chemical free or that are natural, you know, things like that. so so that's what then resonates with your people and real people. so

Kelly: totally. and i think when you're looking at, ranking in that way so as in okay. so chemical free, if you take that and then say, okay. okay. we'll go back to the the hairdressing products, something like that. but what you could do is build up, lots of, blog posts, really good blog posts about chemical free products, but also build up lots of blog posts about hair cutting and hairdressing and things like that. and, eventually, the two cross, and then you've ended up getting that content on both of those sides. and you can do a sort of a cornerstone content kind of piece that actually links all of those together as well. so you've built up those two, yeah, areas of the industry, and that's how you build up your content and end up ranking for good good phrases. so

Sarah: yeah. cool. yeah. that that's fascinating, and look forward to talking more about the the actual how to in the in the workshop. yeah. do you feel like there's a trade off between ranking well on search engines and and still staying human and and not trying to trick the engine, but still making sure, okay, my content feels very humane and and human?

Kelly: yeah. there is a balance, and i know that business owners struggle with it. i really i know this. but we do actually touch on this in the workshop where i i talk through, what was my example? some people, do things, will write things like, oh, five things i do on saturday night to help my business or something like that. but you've gotta get into the mind of the person on the search engine. they're not going to type in five things sarah does on a saturday night to help her business. they're just not going to search that kind of that that sentence. mhmm.

Sarah: so

Kelly: you think about it different in a different way. you can, you know, how to grow my business working on a saturday night or something like that. that's a terrible example, but it's just trying to twist what you really want to write about and then what the people are actually searching for. so we go through in the workshop, we're gonna go through the, finding topics that you can actually write about, the things that you're interested in. then we look at, okay, how are we going to find what people are searching for? so do the keyword research, and then you're looking at, okay, i need to write about that. so you get those, like you get the background exploring the topics, finding the key phrases, and then, like, which ones to choose.

Sarah: yeah. i i feel like yeah. tell us a little bit about keywords and whether they change with the zeitgeist. i feel like they they will, especially in the conscious business realm. right? i feel like it gets more and more yeah. it's like in the site guys now to say, you know, con like, you know, you talk about conscious websites. i call myself a conscious business code. so there's certain keywords, and i think there's actually a tool where you can see, you know, how keywords do over time and and, like, yeah, what have you seen, lately? like, what's a a hype keyword right now that people use?

Kelly: oh, don't know the answer to that question. i'm trying to think. so when you say did you say guides? site guides?

Sarah: zeitgeist. you know, the

Kelly: zeitgeist. i don't know that one.

Sarah: yeah. it's a german word for for for for saying, like, it's it's just in the air right now. like, consciousness and

Kelly: awesome. yeah.

Sarah: you know, kind of this this

Kelly: so you sort of you're sort of talking about, i guess, key like, trends that people are

Sarah: yeah.

Kelly: searching for. yeah. i that actually tend to so when you're looking at a, a website so if you're looking at a very small small business website, you're not gonna be able to rank instantly or well for trending terms because, you've got so many people, to contend with. so a lot of the time, the media will get up there on the trending key phrases and things. so what you need to do is, like, put the effort in, put the groundwork in to get the website to rank well for the basis, and that's when the search engines will crawl your website frequently. and when you have got a really big website, the search engines will crawl your website hourly sometimes. the big websites, if they put a blog post up, they will rank within, like, five minutes because the search engines are crawling the content all the time. when it comes to a small business like ours, it doesn't happen so much because the search engines will crawl us less frequently. but you can use, google search console, and you can actually tell google, right, i've put a new blog post up. so it's called inspect url. you can pop it into the inspection tool, see if it's been discovered yet. if it hasn't, you can ask google to go crawl it. and that's a really good way of getting your very new content pushed out just a bit quicker.

Sarah: yeah. wonderful. well, for those who are listening and maybe can't or or don't want to join us for the the workshop, they they're like, well, i'm just kinda, like, tipping my toes into seo. what would be one thing that you would recommend? like, that's just the basis of the basis that people should do for for seo and their website.

Kelly: we're covering this. yay. we're covering this in part two of the workshop, and that's not a plug, honest, but it is about consistency. so the in the search engine world, it's called nap consistency, which is name, address, phone number. that's what nap stands for. and it really is about having your business name, your name, your telephone number, your opening times, your address, all of that, all consistent all across the internet. so you're not confusing search engines because humane marketing could be completely different from the humane marketing circle. even down to, you know, the word the, search engines need to understand that you are that certain business.

Sarah: and

Kelly: so across social media, on your bios, all of that, you need to have the correct name, the one name that you use. i drop limited off of mine. i don't know if you're a sal or, registered as yeah. and so some people just will put limited or sale on the name on the end of their name business name, and it's just not necessary unless you could you need to use it everywhere if you're going to use it in one place. but just, yeah, be consistent about the information you've put on the net.

Sarah: yeah. again, such a common sense practice. but if you don't know it and you don't pay attention to it, then that's already where it starts, right, regarding yeah. your website. yeah.

Kelly: yeah. exactly. i think the one thing the one takeaway is imagine if you were searching for your business, what do you see on the net? what what comes up? and then deal with those things.

Sarah: yeah. it reminds me of, back in the days when i had the linkedin consultancy, and and people would come to me and, you know, say, oh, i never show my linkedin profile never shows up in a search, not on google, but on linkedin. and so i would go and search for their name, and they had, like, three different profiles under their their name. and it was so confusing, and they're like, oh, i did that because i only wanted certain people to see this. i'm like, oh my gosh. that's so confusing.

Kelly: yeah. yeah. and if you're if you're confusing people yep. if you're confusing people, you're confusing the search engines, basically. yeah. and and your linkedin profile will have a lot of impact on how your website ranks and all sorts. so they all need to be consistent.

Sarah: all connected. yeah. alright. well, give us a sneak preview of the workshop and what we're gonna be covering there.

Kelly: cool. so we've got two parts, and we're going to try to be really, hands on with the whole thing and just make sure that, actually, when we're talking about stuff, we will have a little bit of input. we can have questions, and we're gonna have breakout rooms. so you can actually do a little bit of work. because as soon as i talk about not consistency, everyone goes off and checks their own website. so there's there there is that one. but so we've got part one, which is the keyword research, and we will be learning about exploring the topics, so doing sort of mind mapping around the topics, that you want to use on your blog and on your website. and then we'll do researching of key phrases, and then how to do it and the tools, and then which that you which to choose, so which resonate with you. and then part two is all about consistency, which i was just talking about, and that sort of reasons to be consistent, ways to be consistent, and then sort of where. so which websites and how you'd find them and how to change that information. cool. that'd be fun. yeah. yeah.

Sarah: it's gonna be good. ninety minutes. so, yeah, please, if you're listening and you're like, yeah. that's exactly what i need to start off, twenty twenty five. and and then, you know, as as kelly said, sometimes for our small websites, it takes a while. so i remember we worked together, kelly, and i think a year after i started to have one keyword who's still bringing me new sign ups every every week, basically. and so

Kelly: away. yeah.

Sarah: yeah. and that's just like you know, that's such a good feeling because, again, it's the right people. right? i know they're already filtered because it's not just a keyword like you know marketing, it's a it's a very specific keyword that i will share during the workshop. so yeah if you want to join us all the details are at humane dot marketing forward slash workshop. it's on february fifth. and, yeah, we always, ask for a little donation because, otherwise, it's reserved to the circle members, and it actually takes place in our community. so we hope to see you there. and, personally, i can't wait. thanks so much for doing this, kelly.

Kelly: i can't wait as well. so exciting. cool.

Sarah: awesome. thank you.

Kelly: thank you.

Sarah: actually, we've got one thing, kelly. do tell people where they can find you.

Kelly: oh, i'm kady webb everywhere. so it's, hard to spell, but so it's k a y d e e webb, and that's me basically all over the internet. so instagram, i hang out on a lot. so come over there. yeah.

Sarah: okay. yeah. yeah. get in touch with kelly on instagram. and, and if you wanna see her live, it's during the workshop. thanks so much.

Sarah1: i hope you got some great value from listening to this episode. find out more about kaly at k d dot net. that's k a y d e e dot net. or even better, join us for the collab workshop on february fifth in our community by signing up at humane dot marketing forward slash workshop. and if you're looking for others who think like you and, want to do marketing just like that, then why not join us in the humane marketing circle? and you get access to these workshops for free, and we also host regular community calls led by our members. so find out more at humane dot marketing forward slash circle. you find the show notes of this episode at humane dot marketing forward slash h h m two zero two. and on this beautiful page, you'll also find a series of free offers, the humane business manifesto, as well as my two books, marketing like we're human and selling like we're human. and soon, my third book, business like we're human. still finalizing things. thanks so much for listening and being part of a generation of marketers who cares for yourself, your clients, and the planet. we are change makers before we are marketers. so go be the change you want to see in the world. speak soon.

In this episode, Tamas Hovanyecz joins us to explore how meaningful human conversations can reshape business for the better. Instead of the usual "What do you do?" we'll dig into "Who are you?"—a subtle shift that sparks trust, vulnerability, and holistic solutions.

We'll talk about creating the psychological safety needed for authentic dialogue and how entrepreneurs and Changemakers can hold space for deeper connection with their clients. We'll also consider how "relational design" can help cultivate intentional spaces—online and offline—where real human exchanges lead to lasting impact.

If you're ready to slow down and nurture conversations that truly matter, this episode is for you.

Here's what we addressed in this episode:

• How slowing down and connecting on a human level leads to more effective, holistic solutions
• Shifting from "What do you do?" to "Who are you?" to foster authentic, meaningful conversations
• The importance of psychological safety in building trust and honest collaboration
• How small business owners can create deeper relationships with clients through dialogue and vulnerability
• Designing relational spaces—both online and offline—that encourage genuine human connection
• Exploring the concept of "relational design" to spark lasting change in organizations
• and so much more...

---

How We Can Change The World With More Meaningful Human Conversations

Sarah: hello, humane marketers. welcome back to the humane marketing podcast, the place to be for the generation that cares. this is a show where we talk about running your business in a way that feels good to you, is aligned with your values, and also resonates with today's conscious customers because it's humane, ethical, and non pushy. i'm sarah zaneck rocha, your hippie turned conscious business coach for quietly rebellious entrepreneurs and change makers, mama bear of the humane marketing circle and renegade author of marketing like we're human, selling like we're human, and soon also my third book, business like we're human. if after listening to the show for a while, you're ready to move on to the next level and start implementing and would welcome a community of like minded, quietly rebellious entrepreneurs who discuss with transparency what works and what doesn't work in business, then we'd love to welcome you in our humane marketing circle. if you're picturing your typical facebook group, let me paint a new picture for you. this is a closed community of like minded entrepreneurs from all over the world who come together in two meetups per month to hold each other accountable and build their business in a conscious and sustainable way. we all share with transparency and vulnerability what works and what doesn't work in our business so that you can figure out what works for you instead of keep throwing spaghetti on the wall and seeing what sticks. find out more at humane dot marketing forward slash circle. twice per year, i host my signature program, the marketing like we're human, aka the client resonator program live in a deep dive into the seven p's of the humane marketing mandala, you will learn to market from within. this program is for you if you want and need to get more clients, but want to share your message in an ethical and humane way. if you want to make a difference with your work. if you are just starting out or if you have been in business for a while, but haven't really found the marketing activities that work for you. or also if you are pivoting your business from business as usual to your life's work and want to radically change the way you get clients. find out more at humane dot marketing forward slash program. and finally, if you prefer one on one support from me, my humane business coaching could be just what you need, whether it's for your marketing, sales, general business building, or help with your big idea like writing a book. i'd love to share my brain and my heart with you together with my almost twenty years business experience and help you grow a sustainable business that is joyful and sustainable. if you love this podcast, wait until i show you my mama bear qualities as my one on one client. find out more at humane dot marketing forward slash coaching.

Sarah: welcome back, humane marketers. happy twenty twenty five. i hope you had a good break. if you had one, i hope you did. welcome to another year of meaningful conversations around humane marketing and business building in order to create a business that contributes to making this world a better place. you may have noticed it already last year that there are fewer episodes than your typical podcast, but that's actually intentional. because i really want to create less but more meaningful content. so i try to handpick my guests and bring you people who i really feel are doing things differently. so having fewer episodes also contributes to creating more spaciousness for both of us, which is one of my favorite words these days, spaciousness. and also a big theme in my upcoming business like we're human book. talking about the book, i haven't given you an update in a while because i've just been busy writing. and it's now almost ready, but i'm doing things differently again and won't make a big hoopla around a book launch and instead just do a slow launch over the whole year more or less. so on the podcast, i'll be hosting some conversations with friends around topics that come up in the business like we're human book. some of them, uh, are even mentioned in the book. and so, yeah, just thinking about that gets me really excited. and if you join us in the humane marketing circle before january twenty seventh, you also get the chance to participate and contribute to a beta round of four workshops following the four parts of the book that i'll also be offering to the public when the book is live sometime later this year. and otherwise, as i said, you'll get to listen to the conversations around these topics here on the podcast. so with that, let's get started with the first episode of this year. today's conversation fits under the p of people and partnership. if you're a regular here, you know that i'm organizing the conversations around the seven p's of the humane marketing mandala. and if this is your first time here, big warm welcome. you probably don't know what i'm talking about, but you can download your one page marketing plan with the humane marketing version of the seven p's of marketing at humane dot marketing forward slash one page. that's the number one and the word page. and this comes with seven email prompts to really help you reflect on these different p's for your business. so today, i'm talking to thomas hovanyak about meaningful conversations. thomas energizes the role of a leadership coach, strategic facilitator, and breath work guide. he helps leaders and teams who become the most balanced versions of themselves to build innovative projects and organizations tackling complex social and environmental challenges globally. he's the cofounder of who cards, a card game on a mission to transform social interactions to become more open, vulnerable, and authentic. and we're actually using these questions in our community for the last few months and are just loving those conversations. thomas leads a truly nomadic lifestyle and can often be found balancing and walking on high lines, hundred to two hundred meters high in the mountains where birds fly by. so here's what we addressed in today's episode. we talked about how slowing down and connecting on a human level leads to more effective holistic solutions. how shifting from what do you do to who are you to foster authentic and meaningful conversations. we talked about the importance of psychological safety in building trust and honest collaboration. how small business owners can create deeper relationships with clients through dialogue and vulnerability. talked about also designing relational spaces, both online and offline, that encourage genuine human connection. and we explored the concept of relational design to spark lasting change in organizations and so much more. so i'd say without further ado, let's dive in and listen to this conversation between thomas and i.

Sarah: hey, Tamas good to see you again.

Tamas: hey. good to see you again.

Sarah: we're saying again because we've had this conversation before and it was amazing. and then the sound wasn't so amazing. so we decided to record it again and it's been a few months you've been traveling mountain climbing. and so, yeah, it's it. i can't say i've forgotten it because there was, you know, some things that are like really got me thinking, but it's also good to have the conversation again. so we're talking about meaningful conversations. so maybe you can start there. and just like in the last few months, you you told me you've been outdoors a lot. and tell us a little bit about that. have you taken were you the leader of these groups outdoors, or were you a participant on these outdoor, experiences? and how does the meaningful conversations fit into that experience?

Tamas: wow. such a great question. thank you so much. so the last couple of months, i've been mostly doing this, extreme activity called highlining, meaning that we put a a tightrope or a slackline in the mountains between two points that are currently not connected. and we go on an operation to set this thing up. and then once it's it's up there, we we get on it and we stand up and we balance and walk.

Sarah: and it's i can just imagine it. yeah.

Tamas: and in the last, three months, i've been involved in a big project in greece. we set up one of these highlands, which was one kilometer long on the top of the vikos gorge, which is one of the deepest gorges of europe. and, you know, the beauty of of this is that a number of people come together and many of these people don't know each other from earlier. and, they just have a common passion. and somehow this project team gets, to put together, with a very loose hierarchical structure. so i would say we're more on a flat base. there's not really one single leader. but there is a notion of, many people who know a lot, and we need to come together, and we need to find a way to put up this high line, in a safe manner. and we need to find ways of doing that so it's fast, so it, you know, responds to weather conditions. and that at the end of the day, it's safe to put our lives on. and i'm always super fascinated because, somehow this works out very naturally. and what i came to realize this last mission is that one of the reason why it happens is because we connect to each other human to human. and connecting to each other human to human kinda requires to have more than usual or more than normal conversations, meaning that we get to know each other. who are you? what is your story? what have you been, know, getting passionate about recently? what are your fears? what are your dreams? so we don't just talk about highlights, but we start really connecting on this deeper sense where we we get to know each other, and we build that trust, and we build that psychological safety so that when someone makes a mistake during putting up these highlights or, when someone has a different opinion about some safety issues, we are able to go to each other and we are able to communicate. and then we are able to fall back into being human to human and friends with each other so that we can continue having fun together. yes. i've been having meaningful conversations and i've been using that in the other setting, probably in a much more important way than if i were to use it in a business or an organizational setting.

Sarah: yeah. because, because it's attached to survival. right? so it's like your survival depends on these conversations that you're having with other humans, because i think the minute you can just picture it the minute the ego comes in there and interferes, and you know, someone comes in there and thinks he has, she has all the the answers, then then things can go wrong. so it really has to be a communal, decision making process, and that requires human to human conversations.

Tamas: yeah. very much so. mhmm. that's a good point.

Sarah: that's beautiful. yeah. yeah. and the other word you brought up is psychological safety. so i think that's a really important thing. and you will explain as why, if you if we we want to have meaningful conversations, i think, especially in a setting where people don't know each other. right?

Tamas: mhmm.

Sarah: tell us a bit more about psychological safety and what you feel is important there to, yeah, set the set the space maybe. mhmm. yeah.

Tamas: i mean, it's such a such a topic these days in the organizational field or in the business field on how do we relate to psychological safety. and i think the angle i would like to bring in is that, is what i've been researching a lot around what are the boundaries of, us showing ourselves in different settings, and how does that contribute to psychological safety. because on the one hand, i do believe that we need to take off the masks. we need to take off the mask that our ego, our mind is putting up to protect ourselves from something. so, typically, if you go into, let's say, to a workplace, you don't wanna show yourself that you're lacking something because you have a fear that it's going to be used against you. so you are already hiding behind the mask, or maybe you don't wanna talk about something that you love doing in your free time. maybe it deviates a little bit from the mainstream and from the norm. so suddenly there is another mask there. but at the same time, i do need to show something about myself to start building that trust that is the basics of the psychological safety. so many people, including me, are questioning that what is the healthy depth of sharing about myself in certain settings. and it's the same for me. when i go into my highlighting setting with my friends and my peers, i'm able to share a lot more as opposed to if i go on a on a gala night at an embassy. and, and i need to be able to sense and feel what is this social field around me, and what kind of questions can i ask in this field that moves beyond the regular question, but still not challenging the people in that setting too much so that they are still comfortable giving an answer to that question, which will generate a meaningful conversation? and to me, this is the aspect that comes up with psychological safety the the most that whoever is in a position of bringing different relational connections, into that field, they need to be aware of what is the quality of that field. where are people? where is the audience in that field? and how can they be challenged so that they feel that discomfort of being challenged, but they still feel trusted and safe to start leaning into it. and from there, you can start building more depth because with that, you will start talking about norms, about agreements, and you start slowly creating a space where you can be more of who you are.

Sarah: yeah. yeah. i think there there really is different spaces that can be redefined how how they feel safe, right? like, for for example, i'm talking about a new business intimacy. and and that means that we can kind of question maybe our assumptions, how intimacy should look like in a business setting, and then redefine a new business intimacy that feels good for that group in that specific situations. and then in that setting, we can have meaningful conversations. but that might look different from one workplace to the other. and of course, it's very different. you know, if you compare work compared to a friend setting, where where then it's not business and intimacy, but friendship intimacy. so, yeah, i think i think it's important to understand that. maybe another thing that we should bring up before we go more deeply into into this is is how do we define a meaningful conversation? right? like, what to you does that mean?

Tamas: wow. good question. and what comes to me straight away is that something that's not cognitive. mhmm. something a a meaningful conversation would be for me something that when i'm engaging in that conversation, at the end of it or at some point in that conversation, i start feeling something warm in my body. i start feeling something a sense of kindness, a sense of tingly sensations knowing that this person in front of me went beyond the usual and shared something that maybe makes them feel vulnerable. or maybe i start seeing something about their authenticity. mhmm. so you can distill some stuff from that. but, again, it's it's different from person to person because maybe someone is happy to always overshare, and maybe someone is never sharing anything about themselves. and from that standpoint, they they ran beyond, and i could feel that in my body.

Sarah: and that

Tamas: is the meaningful conversation for me at this moment of life.

Sarah: yeah. so it's an embodied feeling of what it, what it does to you as to, as to participant in this conversation.

Tamas: exactly. and and and that encourages me as a listener to also show more of myself

Sarah: mhmm. be

Tamas: a bit more vulnerable

Sarah: mhmm.

Tamas: or share something that has

Sarah: a

Tamas: deep importance to me, and that could be any topic. so it's not like i wanna lock out certain topics, but maybe i talk about the usual topics from a very different angle.

Sarah: right. which, which makes me think. and, and i, i really feel that this is the case that we have kind of lost the art of having meaningful conversations, definitely in the workspace, but maybe also in in other spaces where it now seems like and i think that's where your who cards come in. it now seems like we need certain people, role models, if you wanna call them that, who who's some somehow facilitate or create that space to to have meaningful conversations. because otherwise, it's much easier to just stay at the cognitive level all the time. mhmm. it feels easier because, yeah, because it's not embodied and it doesn't include so much emotions. and so it's just, like, superficial and it feels easier. it doesn't give you the same it doesn't have the same risk, but it also doesn't have the same benefits, of course. right. it doesn't give you that warm, fuzzy feeling to just stay at the cognitive level. but yeah. is that what you noticed as well that maybe made you then start this project of of creating the the who cards, or or, yeah, holding more spaces where we can have these conversations.

Tamas: mhmm. definitely. and definitely, i've been you know, since the last conversations we had, i've been looking back into my professional life. and one thing that really stood out for me is that i always wanted to have have more real conversations in my workplace. and one thing that stood out for me is that i think people really loved being around me is because i was challenging the topics that we were discussing even at the workplace. and this also means that many of the conversations, from the field of investment banking to social innovation to the nonprofit road, these are the three major fields i've been involved. most of the time centering around what is that we can achieve together, what is that we do together, where are we traveling, and what type of goals we need to deliver to, a, make more profit, or, b, make higher social or environmental impact. and on the one hand, we are making more profit or at least a group of people are making more profit with this in, you know, in the cost of, you know, environmental and social degradation. and on the other hand, you can also see that the social and environmental movement in a way is failing the causes because we are not able to respond to the challenges with the speed and with the efficiency that we need to. so something needs to change. and, you know, when i got into this crazy project out of which the who cards were born, we were challenging the way how we connect when we come together and we start thinking about solving these bigger issues. and we were putting it out there, this idea that if you come to these retreats we were organizing, you were not able to you were not allowed to talk about what you do. you were not allowed to talk about how to solve these big issues before you talked about who you are. and we were talking about people from high level director level of corporates, politicians, artists, actors, social change makers, cleaners, people from all walks of lives. and every single of them were challenged by talking about who they are because we're simply simply not used to it anymore.

Sarah: mhmm. yeah. yeah. in a way, it's it sounds a little bit like a paradox that we need to slow down to speed up. that's what i understood from what you just said. right?

Tamas: yes. and it is a huge paradox and it's very difficult for the mind to comprehend this paradox.

Sarah: right.

Tamas: we need to slow down and we need to start paying attention.

Sarah: right.

Tamas: what's in the room and who's in the room?

Sarah: right.

Tamas: what are the stories that they are telling and how does that inform how i need to, how i should, or how i can connect to this other person? and from that connection, what can naturally emerge? and i'm not saying

Sarah: so tell me more about that. what why do we need to slow down and and create these human connections? how does that help us then speed up?

Tamas: mhmm. i came to believe specifically the last half a year, but this journey has been leading up to this point, is that when we start with the question of what do you do, we really or what can we achieve together, we really start operating from the rational mind, the analytical mind, and this is only half of our intelligence. when we start connecting to each other and we when we challenge ourselves to ask questions like who you are, what makes you smile, are you afraid of death, we start unlocking a deeper sense of this other human in front of me. and with that, we start understanding maybe their underlying emotional road, maybe their underlying intuitive road. and through that, we are creating connections that is not solely relying on the rational mind anymore. it starts stepping into also this other side of our intelligence, which is more, non logical, nonlinear, which considers that we are angry, we are sad, we are afraid of climate change. and the potential solutions, the potential collaborations, the potential outcomes that that comes from those spaces are gonna be more holistic. and i really like this, word from one of my teachers, nikola siani, holistic intelligence. we need to start tapping into that type of intelligence if we want to try to tackle these challenges. simply speaking, because the rationale has not worked out. so we have a chance to tap into something deeper and see what happens. will it work out? i don't think it's guaranteed. and i cannot say with a hundred percent, conviction that it will, but it is a direction that i'm fully convinced that we need to try tapping into.

Sarah: mhmm. yeah. it it feels like we're tapping into the unseen. and so, obviously, if it's the if it's the unseen, it's unknown whether it will work out or not. but it's kinda like, you know, the mushrooms with with all the little roots. what we see is just a mushroom, but what's underneath is actually the real liaison between, you know, the other mushrooms and trees and and the whole forest, really. and so maybe that's what we're tapping into by asking the question, who are you instead of what do you do? so the connection between the humans is much more solid than just, you know, at the at the surface level. yeah. yeah. it's trusting the unseen. right?

Tamas: yeah. and and i the reason why i like that you're bringing in the mushrooms is because we're, you know, we're talking about systems change and and behind that systems thinking here. and i really buy into what this weird yet profound german philosopher, has been exploring. his name is nicholas luhmann. and he said that what we really need to change is the quality of communication between the actors within the system if we wanna really see the systems changing. we can't change the actor themselves. they can only work on themselves on their own, and through that, they can change how they relate to each other. and the who cards and the who are you related questions are really focusing on enhancing this quality. so in itself, we are shifting the system around us just by communicating with each other from a different source and a different place.

Sarah: yeah. yeah. it all comes back on to the, the inner work and, you know, figuring out who we are. and, and that's what, you know, my seven p's of humane marketing are all about as well as like, well, because i think it's the same thing. it's also we're also a player in a system if we are marketing our services and if we are the seller and there's buyers out there. well, if we work on ourselves and we know who we are and we bring that out into the marketplace in quotation marks, and then we're being a different player. and so, therefore, the relationships with our clients and suppliers, etcetera, changes as well, because it's not in that same typical system anymore where i'm the seller and you're the buyer, but we're all of the sudden kind of like on the same playing field, because i come to this buyer seller equation from a different perspective, from a more holistic perspective. so i think i think i, yeah, i hear what you're saying. it's like it's not the it's not the system that you need to change. it's the humans in the system that will then impact the system. and therefore the, yeah, that the meaningful conversations play play a big role. yeah. so i think what we did last time is i just picked up a card. and then we had a conversation around that card. so i'm gonna do that again. and last time it was dancing. so that was fun because we got to dance. this time, it's something else. so, yeah. so the question is, what is a topic that is difficult for you to talk about at the moment? not the easiest question. right? so we can both still decide. okay. well, we can have this meaningful conversation just one on one, or we can have it on the podcast. but, yeah, let you decide that.

Tamas: yeah. and then and you can also invite in, an idea of how how deep, you know, i want to share, how deep you wanna share to this question because then the responsibility really really sits with the person who receives the question.

Sarah: right.

Tamas: and i myself am happy to answer this question with what's true to me at the moment. you know, i've been i've been a butterfly for the last ten years. i've been leading a fairly nomadic lifestyle, living in new zealand, in hungary, in switzerland, in taiwan, and then in many other places. and on the one hand, i really enjoy living an adventurous lifestyle. and on the other hand, i just very recently, i had to really realize that, i have a deep fear in me to ground and to settle down because i'm fearing to face the discomfort that comes with living a life that, you know, from time to time has boredom in it.

Sarah: mhmm.

Tamas: and boredom makes humans and makes me realize that, often i'm alone or often things maybe don't have any meaning or, yeah, maybe there is some sort of a sadness there that i haven't truly allowed myself to feel. mhmm. and it has been difficult to discuss this topic, and and it just been coming up very strongly. and, you know, what i'm learning now is that once i'm allowing myself to feel whatever is below this topic, suddenly, there is a sense of release. and with that comes a sense of space, which then grounds me more in my purpose to do this kind of work, which is not an easy work. because our mind is often cannot see the imagination that a different way of living or a different world is possible.

Sarah: mhmm.

Tamas: and i'm happy you asked this question because i've been on this journey, and now it feels like that suddenly it's becoming lighter to talk about this. mhmm. so maybe there's a sense of shift happening in there.

Sarah: yeah. that makes sense. well, thank you for sharing.

Tamas: thanks for listening. yeah. how about you?

Sarah: mhmm. yeah. there's there's several small things that i'm thinking about, what's very present right now. and and i haven't, you know, talked about it to too many people or or it's kind of like this intimacy thing, that i explained earlier. it's like, well, it's a topic that i talk about with, you know, friends and family, but not necessarily like on a podcast or or with my clients, etcetera. but we just, went through this journey with my with my with our son, our eldest, who, we knew for a while now that he's probably on the autistic spectrum. and and he's twenty one. and he he wanted to get a diagnosis because he just felt like it would help him to know. and so we just gone through that, this week and it was it was quite emotional. it was like at the same time, we really wanted it to hear it, that it's clear for him. and at, and at the same time, it's like, who, what a relief as parents also to know why maybe has been quite challenging, because there was, you know, there's just something wired differently in him and always has been. and and for us parents, yeah, it was not easy because we didn't know all these years. so, just just yeah. kind of my husband and i gave each other a big hug and high five and say, wow. look at look at us. we we did that. right? we somehow managed. and, you know, he's he's grown into a a very smart adult and and and it's it's like helpful for him to have this diagnosis now because he feels like, oh, i understand myself more. right? this is this is what we're talking about here. knowing who we are is really helpful to us. and and and i think the younger generation, they start way earlier for for i was joking with my husband in the car. it's like our my parents, they're in their seventies. and i feel like just right now, they're finally understanding who they are. and then our generation, i feel like i started probably understanding who i was when i was forty. and the this generation, young the young ones today, they're starting at twenty. right? and good for them because it's yeah. it really makes makes life much easier if you don't have to mask, everywhere. so, yeah, that's what's present for me right now.

Tamas: thanks for sharing.

Sarah: thank you. yeah.

Tamas: and you know, what what comes to me just as a quick reflection is that this work and and these questions are definitely travelling on two dimensions, and one is the self awareness and then the relational awareness. and i think it's eric frome who said in the art of loving that, paradoxically, you need to start loving being alone and looking inside to be able to start loving each other, meaning that to be able to start connecting to each other. yeah. that's beautiful.

Sarah: so to get back to maybe kind of, like, the business setting or even the yeah, let's let's call it the business setting. like, what's two things? what's your aspiration with, you know, bringing these conversations into the business world? and then after that, maybe we can because my audience, they're small business owners. right? they're not they're usually not working in the corporate setting. how can small business owners be these role models maybe and have more of these meaningful conversations with their clients or with their peers or things like that? mhmm.

Tamas: so, yeah, our aspirations are quite large at the moment. so we we're super happy that families and friends are buying these cars from us, and then we're going beyond that as well. so we're predominantly looking at the moment, working with events and conferences, to turn their, gatherings more human. this is something that keeps coming up over and over again. and, also, what keeps coming up is that even if the promise is there that this conference is going to be more human, there is something lacking in delivery. and so we're looking at these, places to actually show people, leaders, businessmen, organizational humans, that there is a sense of quality and profit or a return on investment when you start having these meaningful conversations and give them a taster so they can then decide, is this something for my organization? am i ready to have more authentic connections? because a lot of organizations are not, and that is okay, but many are. and so we wanna find those organizations, those leaders to work with to really bringing into their cultural dna once they get a bit of a taster in a conference or in an event. so that's for us, and that's an exciting journey because we are building, you know, a team based on human connections. we've been working on this for seven years. we are in for the long game, and, we are taking it slow. but as we go along, our human connections are so beautifully flourishing, and so many nice mindset shifting moments are happening to us that, i think each of us in the team are appreciating to be doing business in such a way.

Sarah: mhmm.

Tamas: and then for small business owners, you know, when you ask this question, what came back to me is this moment when i used to work for the cognitive science level of greenpeace, and we were doing a massive audience understanding in buenos aires. and, you know, these amazing campaigners were working on campaigns for urban people to change their way of being and way of living to become more sustainable, and they never talked on the ground with people. and i remember this morning when i have just asked them to go out without their phones and just look around, just see and sense from a different perspectives. and they were all coming back saying, like, wow. i've seen so many things in my own city that i have never seen before. and from that, the invitation was that to start having different kind of conversations with the people of buenos aires. and that really struck me of how these questions, these human to human connections can be used in understanding your audience, understanding your customers, and building a different kind of relationships to them. almost like, you know, when i think about small businesses, i i think about a lot of community type of business emerging. so how can we start looking at customers more like our community

Sarah: or

Tamas: more like our ambassadors? so all our customers of the who cards, we think about them more as, like, the people who want this vision to happen in the road, and we engage with them in human to human connections so that they can start feeling that they're not just consuming here. and we're shifting that narrative around buyer and seller, but they are becoming an active cocreator of this new reality that we wanna see. and i think small and medium sized businesses are a potential power powerhouse to start doing things differently, and i can totally see how meaningful conversations can, you know, start initiating this mindset shift both from the ownership perspective, but also from the customer perspective.

Sarah: yeah. i love that. makes so much sense. beautiful. well, i think everybody wants to set of those cards now. so please tell people where they can, find out more about the cards and your work and how they can connect with you?

Tamas: yeah. they can come to the who cards dot c c web page, which we probably put into the show show descriptions.

Sarah: i know.

Tamas: they can read about us. they can order a set of cards, or they they can also play it online for free because we don't want money to be a barrier for more meaningful conversations.

Sarah: yeah. it's wonderful. you can just go on on the website and and then there'll be the question of the day. so it's, yeah, i use it with, my community now. last time we talked, it was a few months ago, you asked me, so are you using them? and i'm like, not yet, but i will. and so now we started using them in the humane marketing circle. and yeah, it's really great to have the the website because the commute, the community calls are led by ambassadors of the community. and so they don't each have a set of the cards. but so they just go on the website, before the call and they pick the two questions. and so we always have these conversations in breakout rooms, with those two questions. and and i think, yeah, it just creates such a deeper quality of the call, which then the second half is still marketing and business related. but to have this foundation of, yeah, understanding each other as human beings. it makes everything different. so thank you so much. i have one last. yeah, i have one last question about the future. like, yeah, what kind of future trends do you see? how how this could change in in companies, for example? does it have to do with creating actual spaces? mhmm. or does it have to do with the management? like yeah. how do you see this changing in in in companies, for example?

Tamas: that's a very, very timely question. we've been doing a lot of research the last couple of months for our b two b offerings. and just yesterday, we came to this beautiful description called the relational design agency. and what we see is that there is a need for more spaces, whether that's online or offline for people to connect. this is the number one challenge for remote or remote first companies that that the employees are not able to connect with each other. right. but every organization, every conference, every gathering has their own culture, their own dna. so while we can support them with really interesting questions, we are realizing that there's a need to support them how to bring that into their own culture setting

Sarah: right.

Tamas: to really meet, where the audiences are. so i see a trend coming up, and and we want to put this expression on the market, relational design. it's somewhere already there, but not so strongly. but we see that, you know, technology and speed it up life is changing how we connect. so we need to start designing these spaces with more awareness and with more consciousness.

Sarah: yeah. that's really good. yeah. it's kinda like this, you know, we're saying that with ai developing there's bill, there'll be all these jobs lost, which is partially true. but there also be new jobs related. so maybe, you know, this title of relation, what did you call it? relational?

Tamas: relational design.

Sarah: yeah, relational designer, you're gonna have, you know, yeah, you have to really design the space for it. like what's happening in switzerland right now is, to me, it's crazy. the companies are bringing people back to, you know, from remote back to to to the office, which you could say, okay, that will help communication. but, obviously, people are not happy about it. but they're bringing them back, and they're putting them in open space. and so people are even less happy about that. so there there is a need for a new design, right? like, however that looks like, i don't know yet, but we can't just go back to the old and think that will solve the the problem. so, yeah, i think i think it's very much needed to to have these conversations around, well, how how it's it's great to have the questions, but we need to create the space for it and the time for it as well. right?

Tamas: exactly. exactly.

Sarah: great. well, thank you. wonderful. thanks so much for being here and, sharing your perspective and all the good work you do.

Tamas: thank you so much for having me.

Sarah: thanks, Tamas

Sarah: i hope you got some great value from listening to this episode and feel encouraged to hold the space for more meaningful conversations, whether it's in your personal life or in your business. find out more about thomas and the who cards at who cards dot c c. you can order a card set there or use the online version for free. that's what we're doing in the humane marketing circle. and if you are looking for meaningful conversations around life, marketing, and business, then why not join us in the humane marketing circle? you can find out more at humane dot marketing forward slash circle. we always have a seven dollar trial where you can just check us out for fourteen days. you find the show notes of this episode at humane dot marketing forward slash h m two zero one. two hundred and one episodes. on this beautiful page, you'll also find a series of free offers, the humane business manifesto, as well as my two books, marketing like we're human and selling like we're human. thanks so much for listening and being part of a generation of marketers who cares for yourself, your clients, and the planet. we are change makers before we are marketers, and it's really time to step up and be brave to create that change. so go be the change you want to see in the world. speak soon.

In this episode of Marketing Like We're Human, I sit down with Tad Hargrave to explore how heart-centered entrepreneurs can generate quick income without compromising their values. We delve into what ethical quick-revenue strategies look like, how to align speed with integrity, and ways to create urgency with care.

Through real-world examples, Tad shares practical tips for navigating tight times while balancing short-term wins with long-term trust. If you've ever wondered how to make money quickly and ethically, this episode will inspire and guide you with actionable insights grounded in humane marketing.

Here's what we'll explore together in this workshop::

• What ethical quick revenue generation looks like: How can we make money quickly while staying true to our values?
• Aligning speed with integrity: How can we avoid feeling manipulative when generating quick income?
• Real-world examples: What ethical quick-revenue strategies have worked for others?
• Approaching urgency with care: How can we create urgency without relying on high-pressure tactics?
• Balancing short-term and long-term goals: How can solopreneurs prioritize immediate wins while building long-term trust?

And if this episode leaves you craving more of these strategies, please join us for the live workshop on December 4th, 11am ET. You can sign up for a donation at humane.marketing/workshop

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Speaker 3:  hello, humane marketers. welcome back to the humane marketing podcast, the place to be for the generation of marketers that cares. this is a show where we talk about running your business in a way that feels good to you, is aligned with your values, and also resonates with today's conscious customers because it's humane, ethical, and non pushy. i'm sarah zena croce, your hippie turned business coach for quietly rebellious entrepreneurs and marketing impact pioneers, mama bear of the humane marketing circle, and renegade author of marketing like we're human and selling like we're human. if after listening to the show for a while, you're ready to move on to the next level and start implementing and would welcome a community of like minded, quietly rebellious entrepreneurs who discuss with transparency what works and what doesn't work in business, then we'd love to welcome you in our humane marketing circle. if you're picturing your typical facebook group, let me paint a new picture for you. this is a closed community of like minded entrepreneurs from all over the world who come together once per month in a zoom circle workshop to hold each other accountable and build their business in a sustainable way. we share with transparency and vulnerability what works for us and what doesn't work so that you can figure out what works for you instead of keep throwing spaghetti on the wall and seeing what sticks. find out more at humane dot marketing forward slash circle. and if you prefer one on one support from me, my humane business coaching could be just what you need, whether it's for your marketing, sales, general business building, or help with your big idea, like writing a book, i'd love to share my brain and my heart with you together with my almost fifteen years business experience and help you grow a sustainable business that is joyful and sustainable. if you love this podcast, wait until i show you my mama bear qualities as my one on one client. you can find out more at humane dot marketing forward slash coaching. and finally, if you are a marketing impact pioneer and would like to bring humane marketing to your organization, have a look at my offers and workshops on my website at humane. marketing.

Speaker 1:  hello, friends. welcome back to another episode of the humane marketing podcast. today's conversation fits under the p of promotion. if you're a regular here, you know that i'm organizing the conversations around the seven p's of the humane marketing mandala. and if you're new here and don't know what i'm talking about, you can download your one page marketing plan with the humane marketing version of the seven p's of marketing at humane dot marketing forward slash one page. that's the number one and the word page. and just a reminder that humane is with an e at the end. that's mainly for my non mother tongue english speakers. this comes with seven email prompts to really help you reflect on these different p's for your business. so today's episode is, as i said, around the p of promotion. and as you've seen in the title, we're talking about how to make money ethically, and quickly. and for this conversation, i've invited my colleague, tad hargrave, who is a hippie who developed a knack for marketing and then learned to be a hippie again. sound familiar, the hippie story? since two thousand and one, he has been weaving together strands of ethical marketing, waldorf school education, a history in the performing arts, local culture making, anti globalization activism, an interest in his ancestral traditional cultures, community building, and supporting local economies into his work, helping people create profitable businesses that are ethically grown while restoring the beauty of the marketplace. so here's what we explore together in this conversation. what ethical quick revenue generation can look like. how can we make money quickly while staying true to our values? isn't that an oxymoron? aligning speed with integrity. how can we avoid feeling manipulative when generating quick income? real world examples. what ethical quick revenue strategies have worked for others, approaching urgency with care. how can we create some urgency without relying on high pressure tactics? and then balancing short term and long term goals. how can solopreneurs prioritize immediate wins while building long term trust? and so much more. and then if this episode leaves you craving for more of these strategies, please join us for the live workshop on december fourth, eleven am eastern time, and you can sign up for a donation at humane dot marketing forward slash workshop. this is a ninety minute workshop inside our community, the humane marketing circle. it'll be very hands on. we have at least two breakout rooms and a lot of conversations. so with that and no other further blah blah, let's listen to tad.

Sarah:  hi, Tad good to see you. it's lovely to hang out with you.

Tad:  you too.

Sarah:  so how to make money quickly and ethically, it's kind of like the and dot, dot, dot, because you're on the humane marketing podcast. right? so if i only said the first part of the sentence, people would have gone, like, i thought this was about intentional, slow building business. so, yeah. tell me. and, and ethically at the same time.

Tad:  yeah. well, it's interesting because this was something that came up with my clients years ago where they would just call me in a desperate situation. rent was due, big tax bill, gone through a big breakup. their partner who'd been supporting their business for years was saying, look. you really got to make this work because i i can't keep pouring money into it. and whatever the situation was or maybe it was some goal. maybe it was just a big inspiring goal. like, oh my god. i need this much money so i can do this thing, and, you know, there's a timeline on it. so people would come to me and i would feel for them. and, yeah, so much of my marketing is this slow marketing kind of organic relationship based reputation word-of-mouth, and all of that takes time. but i realized, well, there are times in my life i had to hustle. you know, i don't i don't wanna banish hustling. there's a, you know, make make hay while the sun shines, as they say. there there is a time to just you gotta crank. you gotta work really hard for a short period of time. it's not a it's no way to live a life, but it's it is a gear that's good to have. and i just realized, you know, i'd done that in my life. and at times i really needed money. once i was thinking about it was, when i was much younger, i'd want to go to a bunch of tony robbins seminars, and they were really expensive. and i didn't have the money, and i just had to make the money, and i found a way to do it. and so i thought there are some things i know that work to to generate cash flow, as as short term tactics. and so then i started gathering those, and i reached out to my colleagues. i'm like, what are the tricks? like, if somebody just needs money tomorrow or next week, what what have you got? and almost all my colleagues had some little approach that's and they're go to and the one they give to their clients. so i started to cobble these together. and and then i ran into the, the second problem, which was that i would then offer these to the to those people, and they would, not be able to implement them because they were too maxed out. they were too desperate. they were you know, you're trying to teach somebody to swim while they're drowning, and it doesn't work very well.

Sarah:  mhmm.

Tad:  and so i realized that we actually needed to create space first. we need to create some room in their life so that they would actually have the capacity to, to do this. i've opened up two threads here, but i wanna just go to this one, thread. something you said earlier about, it being how can it be ethical, but also fast?

Sarah:  right.

Tad:  and, a woman i was dating last year, she drew this out, and i thought it was just so brilliant. and we can imagine there's this two axes. yeah. there's ethical and unethical, and there's hard and easy. and so there's a quadrant here where something is, unethical and it's hard. and i just recommend everybody stay away from that quadrant. it has no redeeming qualities.

Sarah:  it's just like, why even bother?

Tad:  why even bother with unethical and hard stuff? then there's stuff that's unethical and easy. and you could say it's unethical and it brings in results fast. and this is probably a lot of what's being promised in the marketing world. right. and then there's hard and ethical. there that's a real thing. it just takes time. you gotta put in the effort. you gotta do the, building, and it works. long term, it works. so you could say it's ethical and hard, ethical slow, but there's also ethical and easy and ethical and fast. that ethical is not the enemy of fast, ethical is not the enemy of easy, and i think that's an important bond to break because people get it in their mind that ethical just inherently means slow. but, you know, even the the slow food movement the slow food movement was not the banishment of fast food ever. it was the understanding that we we have a choice, that we can choose when we're gonna eat fast. because sometimes you gotta eat fast. sometimes you don't have time for the grand feast with all your friends and the companionship that you wish you did. sometimes it's just we gotta get some food on the table and get out the door. and so that has its place too, but it's the challenge is that fast food had become so dominant, and it had utterly erased. it had it had, you know, the fast food often in modern society, it's not the opposite of slow food. it's the imposite. like, it imposes itself. it's the eclipsing of the slow food movement. it so utterly decimated that culture of slow food. and so with marketing too, this fast marketing approach didn't just show up and say, we'll just be here in the corner as one of the alternatives. it sort of swarmed the marketplace and and has worked to dismantle any of this slow marketing approach. but give if you give it a seat at the table at the feast and don't let it take over the table, if it's one of the people, at the feast, it's great. you know, it's delightful company. it's a charming fast talker and, no problem. you know, welcome, but not, not when it's running the show all the time.

Sarah:  yeah. i love that. and i, i really like these quadrants and this idea of, of easy, right. and, and ethical like that quadrant. another thing you talk about is this low hanging fruit. right? and to me, that really is that top, right quadrant. it's easy because it's low hanging fruit. and, and yet it's always about the, how you present it. i think because in humane marketing, while you can do air a message and, you know, use manipulative language, and it's gonna be in the unethical, quadrant. but you can share a message with empathy and kindness and just say, well, this is the solution that i have. i think it might be a good fit for you. and then it goes into the ethical quadrant. so talk to us about this low hanging fruit. like, what are some things that, maybe your peers shared or that you also discovered with your clients? what is this low hanging fruit that, you discovered?

Tad:  okay. so the big picture, right, low hanging fruit is this idea that on a tree, not all of the fruit is out of reach. blessedly, thank goodness, there's some fruit that's just you could just reach up and grab it. you don't even have to stretch your hand up much. there's some delicious fruit. and it's the same with our businesses. most of our businesses have there's just remember jay abraham, he would talk about just this these windfall profits that are sitting in your business. it's just right there. and most people don't ever think about it. so one, you know, example of this is you email your list with a fifth you know, forty eight hours, seventy two hours, fifty percent off and it will bring in a bunch of stuff. it'll bring in a bunch of money. there'll be a bunch of sales that come in. and that's available. you could i mean, you don't wanna do it all the time because, boy, if you do that every week, suddenly people are like, oh, the courses are actually half of what they say, or you can just wait because next month, another sale's coming. so, again, it's not something we wanna do all the time. but if you haven't done it for a while, you could do that. or even just emailing your list with one of your best products or a product you haven't mentioned for a while, because i think we assume that our clients are just really familiar with our stuff, and they they have poured over our website, and they know all of our products. but the reality is, since they joined your email list or discovered you, you may never have mentioned this product or service or offering in your emails at all. so they may actually have no idea it's there. right. and so you could just tell them. you could just say, hey, everyone. some of you may have joined, recently and not known that i have this offering. and, here it is. you know?

Sarah:  i think, again, it it all comes down to how we present it, because if we put up a sale and say last minute and you don't get it before it's gone and all this false urgency, then obviously it comes over as manipulative and, you know, not doesn't feel probably aligned with our values. but if we present it in a good way and like you just said, oh, i, you know, realize i haven't talked to you about this thing that i have and, you know, people really like it, then it's a completely different approach to to what we're selling.

Tad:  yeah. and, i mean, i think this also gets to a larger conversation of of niching and filtering, being really clear who something is for and who it's not for

Sarah:  mhmm.

Tad:  and making sure that's clear in the marketing. so it's like, hey. i've got this product. i haven't mentioned it in a while, and i wanted to share it. and, you know, when they go to the the sales page about it, it's really clear this product could be for you if this, but it's not for you if this. so you're not not very good

Sarah:  at that. yeah. like, most of your sales pages have that. yes.

Tad:  it's it's, because then people are being respected, and they can feel like, oh, this person isn't just out for the money. they're really trying to make sure that i don't buy this if it's not a fit. mhmm. and, you know, if you're gonna do one of these offers, it's often good to say why so, you know, once a year, i'll do fifty percent off on my birthday. it's just, hey. it's my birthday. this is my thanks for sticking around. here's the seventy two hour sale. or you could be very honest and you could say, look, i've got a financial goal i'm trying to reach. i'm not quite there. and so i figured my problem is your opportunity. here's here's the sale. here's the terms of it. here's how long it lasts. and that's fine. there's nothing unethical about that. i think where it gets unethical is, one, yeah, creating a scarcity where there just is none for no reason. you know? like, there's only fifty of these ebooks available. and this is what? and and now you could do there's only fifty ebooks available because you could say, look. this is my first draft of this ebook, and i want some feedback. so, i'm selling it, you know, advanced to fifty people, and the deal is the catch is i would like your honest feedback on it. what do you think so i can improve it? that's a real reason to limit it. but, when it's a contrived trumped up urgency plus, it's, yes, this language of hype. there's a lot of exclamation marks. there's a lot of all caps, a lot of underlined, and there's an implication that if you don't buy this, you will die a wretched failure. when there's that kind of shaming, in it, then, yeah, of course, this is this is no bueno. this doesn't, this doesn't work. or or worse worse, it does work. and people buy who shouldn't have bought. and then you get drama later when they ask for a refund and they get disappointment, you know that they got burned again, and i think people are so tired of being burned, but. the just because it's a fast result doesn't mean it's unethical, doesn't mean anyone's gonna get burned. as long as we've done the niching work, the the thinking it through, to make sure that only the right people would buy, then everything's golden in my mind.

Sarah:  yeah. and and i really like that you're highlighting that point. because, again, if you have that on the sales page already, you know, this is for you. if this is not for you, if and then maybe also bringing into the email. and then that whole transparency, why is she hosting a sale? you know, does she need, you know, to pay rent and and doesn't have enough like, just that transparency, it it really puts us at the same level, where otherwise, when it comes from this guru marketer, it always feels like, well, they're manipulating me, and so they're just talking down to me. where if i go in with transparency, then it feels like, oh, this this is just two humans talking and, you know, yes, i did develop this thing that i i think is you're really useful to you, then it's a complete different energy that that comes in. so, yeah, that makes a lot of sense. now, as you were talking in in the intro, you talked about space. and and and i was also thinking, okay, so this these quick sales probably really work well with digital products, right? courses, things like that. but not everybody has that. so coaches who just work one on one with clients, yes, they can put out a sale, but that requires that they have that kind of spaciousness. hence, you know, going back to the starting point and saying, yeah, you need to create that space first. so how do you how do you do that? or what do you see coming up as challenges for people?

Tad:  well, most of us are doing too much is one thing. mhmm. and most of it i i think we gotta start with the physical space. i think, you know, marie kondo has has a lot of wisdom mhmm. that if you're if you're in a panic about money i mean, whether it's inspiration or desperation, but you need money fast, it's this is so counterintuitive, but the very first thing that i think people need to do is tidy their home. you know, it it take a day and just go nuts. take out the garbages. you know? get some of those clothes you're not wearing anymore to the thrift store consignment shop. clean out your fridge, clean off all your desks, clean your room, all those things. because at the end of it, you, the environment always wins is what i found. if the environment is cluttered, your mind will be cluttered, and it makes it almost impossible to deal with any crisis that you're in. so the very first thing, you know, we we tidy our physical space and this gives us this energy, this is that we're all familiar with, when you clean your space and you get up at like three am just to look at the living room again because it looks so good. and it's hard to sleep actually after you do that because of all the energy you get back in that clutter is energy. and it's our energy being stored, externalized, and when we get rid of it, we we get the energy back. and and there's a pride because i think also sometimes when people are in a desperate situation, there's a lot of shame that comes. like, i shouldn't be here. how come i'm here again? so when we do this, we we we feel proud. we get this energy. we feel good about ourselves, and it kind of clears the decks for us to then take action. and then the second thing is there's a real need to look at other ways our we're being crowded. so some of that is in our calendar, and we just have to look through our calendar and say, okay. what's in there that i don't actually wanna do that i'm sort of half hearted about? that's a commitment i just i wish i hadn't made. and then ethically, as much as possible, we just get ourselves out of those commitments. and for a while, you know, thirty days, ninety days, you just have to clear the decks. you just have to remove anything that isn't really, isn't really a priority. and sometimes making money is a priority. sometimes it's just okay. some hospital bills came in. some unexpected expense my laptop died. i had to get a new lap whatever it is. and money just has to be a priority for a while. i mean, this is the big secret. if you wanna make more money, the number one bottom line secret is you you have to make it a priority. and i think when, you know, as ethical, humane, conscious leaning folks, it it it almost feels like a a terrible thought. how could you prioritize money? but, you know, money is a stand in for the material things often we buy. so it's like there's times where, oh, we need food. you go into the food stores, your pantry, and i don't know, an animal got in and a lot of it spoiled. well, you need food because you gotta feed your family, and there's nothing unethical about that. it's very ethical to make sure your family is well provisioned. you know, there's a, some kid with a slingshot breaks your window, and it's the middle of winter. well, nothing matters more than fixing that window because otherwise your pipes are gonna freeze. so handling the material concerns is is not separate from ethics in my mind. and, but, yeah, we need to have that space so we can focus on it. because if if we're trying to handle these kinds of crises or urgencies given the current volume of stuff that's going on in our life, we can't one of the exercise i do in the meantime is a let's see. is this so, you know, i i i have them get an elastic band. and so i got the elastic, and i said, no. i want you to stretch it as far as you can. like, stretch to the point where it's gonna break if i pull it okay. there it is. if i pull this just a bit more, it's gonna snap. and then i look at them and i say and the and most of them have one in their hand. i say, you feel that tension? that's you right now. that's you. you are about to snap. so then if on top of this, you wanna pull harder, you're just gonna break. and that does nobody any good. so the secret is, you know, we've got to kinda bring it a little closer together, give it some slack so that it can do some other work. and but that can be other things. sometimes there's, apologies we need to give. like, oh, i'm actually the the my emotional world is crowded up because i know i'm out of integrity. i need to say sorry to somebody, or we need to set a boundary with somebody. somebody's overstepping our bound you know, that can be a way we create space. it might be removing all of the apps from our phone, the social media apps, our email from our phone for a time, and setting certain boundaries around that, like, okay. i'm not taking my phone into my room when i go to bed. do i just stay up all night scrolling? that can create more space. i mean, if you took your social media off your phone or went on a social media fast, let's say for ninety days, you just put up, say, hey, everybody. i'm not responding to any social media messages for the next ninety days while i focus on handling business. most of us would free up four or five hours a day when you look at the stats and how much we're on our phones. so if if you can free up the time and space and have that physical space, it's it's an automatic game changer. and then if you can have some tactics that you know work to generate cash flow, that are sort of proven commodities, then, yeah, you can start to bring in some money, very, very quickly.

Sarah:  i see these two energies. one is like this crazy spinning. i need money now. super anxious. right? and it's like, oh my god. oh my god. and, unfortunately, i think the marketing messages that we might receive where we go, god, that felt really manipulative and almost shaming that comes from that kind of energy. it's like, i need more now. and, you know, yes, i probably have a full calendar already. and then i see the other grounded energy with lots of spaciousness and yeah, decluttered. right. and, and yet the understanding we do need money in this world right now. and i have already worked on my life's work. i have created things that are useful. and right now, i'm just going to focus on, you know, selling them a bit more than i usually do. because, yeah, i have this need, right now. and like you said, there was not there's nothing unethical.

Tad:  and we can we can be so honest about and

Sarah:  i think what

Tad:  yeah. i was gonna say we can be so honest about look. it's a really tight time. here's what's going on on our family. we need some money, and so here's a sale. the thing i would caution against, though, is there i think there's a three strikes in your out rule. i have seen this with a number of local businesses. and maybe, you know, you and people listening can identify with this, where there's a business in town. they're a cool ethical restaurant, grocery store, shop. everybody loves them. everybody loves the owner. everybody knows they're just doing the right thing, but their business sense maybe isn't the best. and so then at a certain point, they put out the call and they say, we need the community come together and support us. please come and shop. you know, we're not gonna be able to pay rent. and the community rallies, and it's one of the most beautiful things. and you see everybody showing up, and it's a real festive atmosphere, and everybody's so happy to support this business. then that's strike one. strike two. six months later, they're in the same place. and it is half or a quarter of the response. the third time, six months later, a year later this happens, it's it's crickets. mhmm. so it's this is not stuff you wanna do often. and, you know, while you're creating that space and hustling, it's really critical to also be looking at how did i end up here? what foundations were missing that delivered me to this state? now sometimes it's just life circumstance, and it's not something you need to be scared will repeat. but it could also be an indication you haven't set up your life with enough bandwidth to deal with the inevitabilities of life. right. you've got nothing in savings. you've got no extra time in your life. and i've seen this with people where, again, i think most people can probably identify somebody specifically, and it might even be, you know, yourselves listening to this. there are people in communities who sort of carry the community. they're the ones who host all the events, they're the ones who are leading the fundraisers, and they seem to take everything on their shoulders. and often, this is done, though, from a collapsed place, from a, like, my needs don't matter, but the world's needs do. and they give and they give and they give, and they eventually snap. and they snap at people, and they can end up, you know, very lonely because there's so much resentment and bitterness in them that nobody else is helping, but they actually haven't slowed down enough to allow people to help them. so it's it's so important that we're also working on the foundations. you know? i i know you have your own your model, and i've got mine around what we think those foundations are. but if those things aren't in place, boy, there's no these fast cash tactics are not the fix

Sarah:  no. yeah.

Tad:  at all. they're, they're, a stopgap. they're triage medicine, but we need to get the foundations in place.

Sarah:  i think what they do and, i think it's very smart of you. i think they create awareness, you know, is like, oh, you got my attention. right. it's a topic where it's like, oh, you got my attention. and then you come up, come in with the spaciousness and people are like, what? ah, okay. so this is yeah. we're working on the short term strategies while also creating the foundation for the long term strategies, which is yeah. it's brilliant.

Tad:  which is yeah. which is worth people thinking about in their own businesses is because i know all of us, we wanna help people, like, really solve the thing. and so often in our marketing, we're speaking to these much deeper things than people are even thinking about. one example of this that i love is a guy from the netherlands, hovart van ginkel, who's a, nonviolent communication, consultant. and he got brought into a school, and the school, the dynamic was the teachers had a very aggressive, sort of violent, not pleasant communication style. but this is the challenge. he can't go in with a nonviolent communication class to people who've never heard of nonviolent communication who don't think they're violent communicators. so instead, they did the i thought it was one of the most brilliant moves. they said, it's a workshop on how to deal with difficult parents. now in that workshop, of course, it was also revealed to them that perhaps they had their own, difficulties, you know, they had their own struggles and but they they led with something that was an actual urgent thing from the side of the client. so it's worth thinking about, is there something with your clients that maybe you've said, no. that means they're not a fit. i'm gonna turn them away because that's too urgent or it's too, surface or that's not what i wanna work with. that you know, another example of this was, another nonviolent communication, woman. she's a client now. and she's come up with a a workshop on screen time agreements that stick, i think it's called. and so for parents, i mean, do they wanna go deep, deep, deep into the depths of nonviolent communication and all this? yeah. some, but most don't. but a lot of parents are interested in screen time agreements. and then if she can say, look, this is actually one of the biggest sources of conflict, and speaking of conflict, here's some other thoughts on conflict. or bradley morris, my colleague, he did a he had a workshop where he got off eight years ago, he got off social media entirely. he was sitting up on a hill on salt spring island looking at the sunset, and his initial immediate thought was this would make a great social media post. and he just realized, oh my god. the machine has hacked my brain. yeah. i'm looking at the world through its eyes now of the algorithm. so he went home and said, celeste, his wife said, i'm getting off social media. he got off. and he so he created a webinar about this called how to market without social media. and he, put that out. i hosted him and we had, like, a thousand people sign up, but we had to get our friend's zoom account because i just couldn't handle that many people. and i said, bradley, you got to do this over and over again. but again, this was, what he wants to talk about is this partnership marketing, this long term relationship building thing, but the the thing that people are feeling

Sarah:  more yeah. it's a classical, sell them what they want and then give them what they need. right? that's that's the thing. and then it's yeah. we keep doing like, even myself, like, keep doing it wrong because we're like, oh, this is this genius concept. and and people are like, they don't want a concept. they just wanna solve their their immediate problem.

Tad:  yeah. and once and then once we have their attention with the immediate problem, we can then open the door and say, here's what that's really about. here's what's really going on. so, yeah, if you're struggling in your business and it's a recurring thing and marketing is just feeling terrible for you and business feels awful, and you're not making money, you're not getting enough clients, you might just think it's about this, but it's actually got these five or six other pieces that you're not even thinking about. and if we can get in front of them and make that case, that's great. you know? but it's to me, it connects because it's those kinds of offers more likely to get a quick response from people. you know, they're more likely to generate cash flow quickly rather than the, you know, come and learn my deep philosophy on life and business or or whatever it is. yeah. and yeah. so it's i was gonna say the key is you gotta if you sell them what they want, you actually have to deliver on that because otherwise it's a bait and switch. this is the unethical move is come to my workshop and learn fast cash tactics, and when they arrive, it's like, how couldn't you be thinking about fast cash you on ethical pieces?

Sarah:  so let's talk about this workshop because that was gonna be my next question. right? it's like, well, so so so because we are hosting a workshop together where you're gonna be speaking about how to make money quickly and ethically. and, yes, you'll address the space and spaciousness. but then, yeah, tell us what what else you'll cover in that workshop.

Tad:  we're gonna be going into ten different, tactics. ten of my i think there's thirty six that i've gathered over the years, but just due to time, i think we'll get into ten of them. and these are ten of my favorite tactics that just work, that my colleagues use, that they give to their clients, that i've used self, that i passed on to clients, and that people have generated, lots of money real quickly. so, and i'm not talking tens of thousands necessarily, but, you know, a few hundred here, a few thousand there, getting i

Sarah:  think it always depends on the kind of business you have and what kind of offerings you have. that's that's another ethical thing, right? it's like, well, if you're promising thousands of dollars and yet all i'm selling is, you know, ebooks, then obviously i'm not going to be able to make that kind of money. but it depends. yeah.

Tad:  yeah. yeah. so that's what we're going to get into is some of my favorite, my my top ten, tactics that i think, most people would take and probably just use for a lot of people, they could use it tomorrow, and it would bring in money tomorrow, or within a week or so. you know, this is not stuff that needs enormous setting up now. of course, the clearer your niche is, the clearer your point of view is, the better set up your offers are, the better these things work. but they still work, you know, in the short term anyways.

Sarah:  mhmm. yeah. well, i can't wait.

Tad:  so i'm excited too.

Sarah:  please, if you're listening to this as always, you know how these collab workshops work. it's, this time is tad and i. i'm hosting. tad is the one speaking. we're going into breakout rooms. it's real intimate and you get to really, you know, roll back your sleeves and and work on something. it's not just a a webinar where tad is talking for ninety minutes, but we really get into things. so and obviously from that ethical, humane point of view. so, i think it's gonna be real good. so if you're excited as well, sign up at humane dot marketing forward slash workshop, and we'll see on december fourth. i can't wait to continue this conversation with you, ted. thank you. amazing.

Tad:  wonderful. thanks for having me.

Sarah:  thank you.

Speaker 2:  i hope you got some great value from listening to this episode and see how you can do marketing in a ethical and humane way even to generate some quick money. we'd love to see you on december fourth for the make money quickly and ethically workshop. again, it's a ninety minute really hands on workshop inside our community. you can sign up now for a donation at humane dot marketing forward slash workshop. and otherwise, tad also has a free starter kit with many resources at marketing for hippies dot com forward slash starter dash kit. and if you're looking for others who think like you, then why not become a member of the humane marketing circle? you get access to these collab workshops for free, and we also meet once per month in a member meetup that is organized by our members. find out more at humane dot marketing forward slash circle. and you find the show notes of this episode at humane dot marketing forward slash h m two hundred. just realized that this is the two hundredth episode. so humane dot marketing forward slash h m two zero zero. and on this beautiful page, you'll also find a series of free offers as well as my two books, marketing like we're human and selling like we're human. and soon, very soon, beginning of next year, you'll be also finding, business like we're human there. i'm finalizing everything right now. thanks so much for listening and being part of a generation of marketers who cares for yourself, your clients, and the planet. we are change makers before we are marketers, so go be the change you want to see in the world. speak soon.

In this episode, I'm joined by Avital Spivak, an online tech coach and certified business manager, to discuss how heart-centered entrepreneurs can overcome tech overwhelm and use tools to boost efficiency.

Avital shares her expertise on aligning technology with your business values, building a solid tech foundation, and approaching tools as trusted partners that enhance, rather than complicate, your work.

Whether you're tech-savvy or tech-shy, this conversation will empower you to confidently choose and manage tools that free up time and create space for being more human in your business.

What we covered in this episode:

• How technology can serve human needs rather than the other way around.
• Ensuring that we're building a solid foundation of our business tools before adding new technology.
• Evaluating new tools that align with our business paradigm and values.
• Approaching tools as if they were team members, ensuring they complement and enhance our work.
• Strategies for overcoming tech overwhelm by starting small and focusing on what's needed.
• Choosing the right person to help with tech.
• A sneak preview of the Collab Workshop on November 6th

--

Overcome Tech Overwhelm & Boost Efficiency

Sarah: [00:00:00] Hello, Humane Marketers. Welcome back to the Humane Marketing Podcast, the place to be for the generation of marketers that cares. This is a show where we talk about running your business in a way that feels good to you, is aligned with your values, and also resonates with today's conscious customers because it's humane, ethical, and non pushy.

I'm Sarah Zanacroce, your hippie turned business coach for quietly rebellious entrepreneurs and marketing impact pioneers. Mama bear of the humane marketing circle and renegade author of marketing like we're human and selling like we're human. If after listening to the show for a while, you're ready to move on to the next level and start implementing and would welcome a community of like minded, quietly rebellious entrepreneurs who discuss with transparency what we're doing.

Works and what doesn't work in business, then we'd love to welcome you in our humane marketing circle. If you're picturing your [00:01:00] typical Facebook group, let me paint a new picture for you. This is a closed community of like minded entrepreneurs from all over the world who come together once per month in a zoom circle workshop to hold each other accountable and build their business in a sustainable way.

We share with transparency and vulnerability, what works for us and what doesn't work. So that you can figure out what works for you instead of keep throwing spaghetti on the wall and seeing what sticks. Find out more at humane. marketing forward slash circle. And if you prefer one on one support from me, my humane business coaching could be just what you need.

Whether it's for your marketing, sales, general business building, or help with your big idea like writing a book, I'd love to share my brain and my heart with you together with my almost 15 years business experience. experience and help you grow a sustainable business that is joyful and sustainable. If you love this [00:02:00] podcast, wait until I show you my mama bear qualities as my one on one client can find out more at humane.

marketing forward slash coaching. And finally, if you are a marketing impact pioneer and would like to bring humane marketing to your organization, have a look at my offers and workshops on my website at humane. marketing. com. Dot marketing.

Hello friends. Welcome back to another episode of the humane marketing.

podcast. Today's conversation fits under the P of partnership. We're partnering with technology and tools, and I'm speaking to Avital Spivak. If you're a regular here, you know that I'm organizing the conversations around the seven P's of the humane marketing mandala.

And if you're new here and don't know what I'm talking about, you can download your one page marketing plan with the [00:03:00] Humane Marketing version of the seven Ps of Marketing at Humane. marketing forward slash one page, the number one and the word page. And just a reminder that humane is with an E at the end.

That's not always obvious for non English speakers. So it's not human marketing, but humane. It comes with seven email prompts to really help you P's for your business. I'll tell you more about Avital in a minute, but first allow me to plug my awesome business book alchemist program, which starts on November 14th, one more time.

So this is a program for what I call a renegade authors. So authors want to be authors who are writing a book for the message, for the change, and not only to call themselves bestselling authors. So, in these eight weeks together, [00:04:00] we'll refine your big message, get clear on your ideal reader, build a solid outline for your book, and then also create a marketing plan for it.

So, it starts on November 14th. It lasts officially for eight weeks, and I'm saying officially because with last year's participants, we're still meeting monthly in the BBA book lab to hold each other accountable with our writing, and one of the members already submitted A chapter to a multi author book and it's just been published and she keeps writing now her own book as well, which is amazing.

The program comes with an evergreen video course portion and extensive workbook to help you reflect and work on your book as well as Eight live calls in which we go deeper into the content and start planning and working on our books. And after these eight weeks together, you also have [00:05:00] the opportunity, if you want to, to join that BBA book collab where we meet monthly because it really helps to have that accountability and community to hold each other accountable as well.

So if that speaks to you, if you know deep down. You have a book inside of you, and let me tell you, it's never the right time to write a book. Just kind of like, it's never the right time to have a child. Maybe now is the time. So check out the details at humane. marketing forward slash BBA. And let's talk.

Book a call to talk to me about whether this is a good fit for you. I'd love to hear about your book idea. Okay, so back to today's episode. Avital Spivak is an online tech coach, certified online business manager, and computer engineer. For 15 plus years, she has been breaking the myth [00:06:00] that people who did not grow up with technology cannot get comfortable with it at any age.

She's a martial artist, multilingual, and enjoys helping clients from everywhere around the world get unstuck with tech so they can grow their business with confidence. What we covered in our conversation, how technology can serve human needs rather than the other way around. Ensuring that we're building a solid foundation of our business tools before adding new technology, evaluating new tools that align with our business paradigm and values, approaching tools as if they were team members, ensuring they complement enhance and enhance our work.

Strategies for overcoming tech overwhelm by starting small and focusing on what's needed. Choosing the right person to help with tech. And then also a sneak preview of the collab workshop on November 6th. [00:07:00] That's right. On November 6th, Avital comes into our community, the Humane Marketing Circle, and will help us in a 90 minute hands on workshop to get more familiar.

And get more used to tech and also kind of build that foundation and map it out according to our needs. So if you want to join us after listening to this episode, please go to humane. marketing. com forward slash workshop. And you can join us for a small donation inside our community. All right, let's do it.

Here's Avital and I talking about tools. Enjoy.

Hi, Abital, so good to have you on the Humane Marketing Podcast. Welcome. Welcome. Hey, Sarah. Great to be here. Thanks for welcoming me. Thank you. All right. Tools and technology. That's our topic today. One of my favorite topics, actually, I, [00:08:00] I'm a big tech fan and AI and people kind of always Find that interesting because I'm, as you know, I'm talking all about human and being human and being humane.

But I really feel like they go together and we can discover or kind of dive deeper into that later in the conversation. But I want to start with you and this topic of. Yeah. Technology. What, what brought you, like, what made you focus in on that topic? That's my first question. And then why is that such a struggle for so many entrepreneurs?

So two questions for you. So what brought me here is many years as a software engineer and a team leader. So I've been in the tech space for many, many years. But also I've been an [00:09:00] educator even longer than I've been an engineer. I've always liked having people ask me questions and, and come back with something for them to get them unstuck and into the next step.

It's been a lifelong since I think I remember myself in the third grade already helping. other kids in my class with their problem with their mom and the problem with homework and their problem. So it's always been there. Every team that I've been on, I became the person who onboards people and et cetera, and shows them what to do.

So both of these came together as an entrepreneur. To help solopreneurs with their technology. For me, and it's interesting that you said that your interests are in tech and people, because for me, this comes together because the technology is here to serve us. It's not separate than the human. [00:10:00] And I think a lot of tech troubles, to go into your second question, a lot of tech trouble comes from ill fitting matches.

So when we forget the human part of the equation and we focus, let's have the tech that can do that thing. Wait a minute, there's a human in the equation. If we don't fit the text to the human, it's not going to work. Yeah. That's why you're here on this podcast. I could get, I knew you know, when Sophie Leschner introduced us, I'm like, yeah, there's gotta be a good fit here because obviously there's, there's.

A lot of tech gurus out there. But you're right. It's the technology that needs to go together with the human being and being able to adapt and adopt the, this technology and fit them into our humanness. [00:11:00] That's the, that's the key really to, to making these things work for you. Right. I think that's a, a big part of what you're saying is also like.

Make sure you choose the tools that work for you and not just because someone recommended a new shiny object that you have to now also use that thing as well. Very true. And really tools have been an extension of humans for many, many, many years. We can go back, you know, to using stones to carve things.

But I like to do my, another passion of mine is martial arts, Chinese martial arts. So I would say that the sword is an extension of the person you have to, the sword doesn't work by itself. And for it to work well for you, you need to hone it, you know, like to hone your skills to, to, to. [00:12:00] Get the tool in good shape to get yourself in a good shape to become a team and work together.

If you don't become one with your sword and the sword doesn't fit you, you know, it's not useful at all. Right. So, so the tools are an extension of ours. They come to serve our needs. And for that to work, we need to give them, you know, we need to be good team members. We need to give them what they need in order to serve best.

Right. Maybe this, for someone who's completely opposed to, or even kind of scared of technology, that may sound a little abstract, right? So let's, let's give them some specific. examples, like for you, when you talk about tools for solopreneurs, give us one or two examples of these tools, and then I can share some of the tools that I use as [00:13:00] well.

So I'm not going to go with a specific tech tool, but I am going to go with the computer. As a tool, so we use the computer as part of our tool, right? But if we don't know how to wrangle the windows to do what we want, if we don't know how to respond. So I'll jump into a different piece a little bit because I speak about a lot about computer land.

This is me as a human being entering computer land and it's somewhere where there's the culture is different. The language is different. Part of that, to give the specific example you're looking for is that I interact with computer land on a flat screen. Everything goes. Starts with the eyes. So if my tools want to [00:14:00] talk to me, they have to put something on the screen that I can see.

And we've all seen those, you know, little boxes that come up, right in front of your work, and ask you something. And our first instinct is to just, you know, go away. Click, click, click, click, click, go away. But if we remember that that's the only way that our tools have to speak with us, then we might start paying attention.

Here's another source of problems is we send away the messages to tell us there is a problem. You need to do something about this. Here's a guide of, you know, here's your next best step. There's a lot of conversation going on. If we ignore it. we get into trouble. So specifically, I help people start paying attention to those.

And really, [00:15:00] it's not that you need to read each one, because like walking down the street, you don't talk to everybody that comes and asks you a question or tell you something, etc. You make a decision. Is that a person that's relevant, and they need to listen to what they say and respond? Or is that somebody that.

I need to ignore. So when that thing pops, the first thing is not to read or to make it go away. The first thing is, where did that come from? Who's talking to me? That, that, yeah, that really makes me laugh because I. Probably 9 out of 10 times, I'm the person who closes those things, right? Because, and I tell you why, Avital, because they.

They're not using a very human language, like they're speaking to me as if I was another piece of technology. So I think message to, you know, whoever humans are programming this technology is to [00:16:00] use a more human language in those messages as well. Because then we can actually communicate, but, but right now all these messages feel like, I have no idea what you're saying.

Sounds bad. So I'm going to close it. But I agree. And that's you who are passionate about technology and likes using those things, right? And you close nine out of 10 without reading, right? So it's definitely a very common thing. What I do with my clients is I tell them, take a picture, send it to me. I'll tell you what they're saying.

And what happens is Those things stopped coming because a lot of them come back and back and back because we haven't responded, right? So what do you do when you know, if I have a team member, they're trying to tell me something and I'm not responding Hopefully they'll try again and again and again, right?

So when we respond a lot of time those things go away Right. If we don't respond, they pile up and then you have things [00:17:00] taking your screen space, taking it away from your work, distracting you. What I was more thinking of is, is tools like, you know, zoom, for example, that we're recording our podcast with, or technology like my mic that I need to know how to, you know the levels of the, of the microphone so that the sound is, is, is good.

All of these other technology tools that again, help us to be more human with, you know, someone across the ocean that I can now talk to where before or. You know, for someone who doesn't know how to use these tools, it becomes difficult. Other tools that solopreneurs probably often need to learn how to use it are like email providers even just the Google suite and all of these technology things that we're using all the [00:18:00] time.

And even if. We are not, if we're choosing not to use them in our own business, the minute we collaborate with other people, we're often confronted with having to use them. I see that in one of the volunteering teams I'm in right now. And it's a challenge because it's like, Oh, I just took it for granted that everybody knows how to use this.

But. Obviously that's not the case. So yeah, tools are everywhere. So here are, here are my top things. So first is the computer. You have to learn to talk to it. Then we have the browser, how to use the internet well with tabs and bookmarks and not lose your space and not be afraid to search and all that.

Then we have zoom to collaborate and communicate. Then we have files. Where do we put our files or storage? Where is everything? How do I find it again? And like you say, when [00:19:00] collaborating with others, then suddenly we have Google Docs. And there's a lot of people who, you know, you put the link to a doc and that's very common way to share information and, and collaborate in writing.

And there are people who are very uncomfortable with that. So I create tools like little courses and things like that. One of my courses is navigating Google land. So that people can collaborate easily, but, you know, actually learn to do it because it, it's very challenging to get started when you don't have the basic blocks.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And even people who are versed and know things, they might be missing some of the basic blocks without knowing it because they find all sorts of workarounds. [00:20:00] But it creates inefficiencies and it creates a little level of, I'm not sure if next time I'll be able to do this. And it really makes the daily life hard.

I see what you're doing. And I, I feel myself feeling a little bit impatient because I'm like, Oh, but I thought we're going to be talking about, you know, these techie tools, but I see completely what you're doing. And you're like, well, we have to build the house. We have to build the foundation with. If, yeah, with how to, yeah, have a filing system, maybe on your computer files, but also in your email file, email organizing, all of these things that are, it's true.

It's part of the foundation. Why would you want to use something very techie if you don't have that foundation yet? Right. So, so that leads me to the, another question. So, so [00:21:00] then. Okay. We were building this house with the foundation. And yet we're healing, hearing from everywhere. Well, you should be using this tool now and this app and this, this other shiny thing.

So once we have that foundation in place, how do we then make decisions about what to add to our foundation of the house? If we continue with that analogy. Yeah. Excellent. This is the next place, right? So so at this point, once we have, we made sure that the foundation is solid, then we want to start from the human and the company.

What are my needs? What is it that I need to do? Because if I just start listening to everybody that tells me you need this, you need this, solopreneurs need this. I use that. We get lost and we might start trying things and get into trouble. Right. Many [00:22:00] of us know enough to get ourselves tangled and the way to decide and I have a tool for that, which I can talk about in the workshop, right?

Exactly. We'll talk about in the workshop that helps you map your needs to your tools. Okay. Because that's really the way I approach this is looking at my tools as a team. So I need a team to help me with my business needs. And what are my business needs? We don't go out and start taking people because somebody said, Hey, this guy's great to work with.

Okay. Let me employ them. We don't go about building our human team like that. It's like, what do I need a person with? Is that person? Okay. So they're great to work with. Do they fit me? There's an interview process. There's a, you, you want to know who you're bringing in rather than try and bring all sorts of things because they might be able to help.[00:23:00]

There's a cost, even if it's not in money, there's a cost in adding just anybody and everybody to the team. Even for a trial period. It disrupts something. And when, when I tell people to start thinking about anything they know about team building, because all of us that are, let's say above, let's go with 30, all of us older than 30 have seen some teamwork somewhere.

And even if they didn't build the team, they were part of teams and they know what works and what doesn't work. We all have experience. Let's use this experience to build our tech team. And when we start thinking of Our tools as what actually serves the need it starts being a good fit and it starts being something you can use.

So that's where I start. I start with, let's say what what [00:24:00] your needs are. And now let's interview the tools that everybody's recommending according to that. I love that. That is so aligned with everything we, we stand for it, humane business and humane marketing, because it, you know, humane marketing also starts with ourselves, like, who are we, what's our story, what's our values, what's our worldview, and then how do I bring that to my marketing, to my business so that it reflects.

And resonates with the right kind of people so that they feel attracted by who I am. And so you're telling me now, and this is so beautiful that we're going to listen to ourselves first again to our needs our business model, because all of our business models are going to be different. And, and then from that place, [00:25:00] look at the tools that are out there and available and see well, which one fits just because everybody's using MailChimp doesn't mean that I have to now use MailChimp and, and use, you know, even have an email list.

Maybe I don't want to have an email list. So yeah, looking at my needs and my business needs first, I like that a lot. I'll give you a specific example. Many people use a. Tools that are different ones, but tools that would post things for you in social media. Right. And maybe you give them kind of the same post, go ahead, schedule it and post it everywhere, but.

And that sounds efficient and sounds helpful and it feels good, you know, this tool is going to post for me. I don't have to spend my time there. But when we're thinking about the other side, which is in part humane marketing or in part [00:26:00] what, how is the tool fitting my values, depending on my values and how I see talking to people, LinkedIn has a very different style and vibe and environment for conversation than in Facebook, for example.

And Facebook is different than Instagram and they're all have a different environment, right? So sometimes posting the same thing to all of them wouldn't necessarily make sense and, and using a tool that would do it for you rather than I like part of my value is the conversation and the relationships that I create with the people that I serve.

And when I'm posting on LinkedIn, I'm there to respond to comments and I'm there to respond. And I don't use my VA to respond to comments because I want to respond in my voice and the way that. You know, depending [00:27:00] on people's questions and comments, I want to respond. It's an extension of the post and that's the conversation.

Right. At the same time, I have my VA post things like reminders and all sorts of things that are, I've written in my voice, but it needs the extension. Then I can use an automation or a person or anything to, you know, for wider reach. Right. Yeah. So I don't know if that makes sense, but for example, choosing a tool to do the automation of posting or not.

would depend on how I see what I want to do on social media. Yeah. Yeah. And I was thinking like even further, like if we look at our values first, which is this inner work, right? And then we look, we figure out our needs and then we find. Let's say two different tools. One is kind of the traditional [00:28:00] tool to just make money or profit oriented.

And one is a tool with great ethics. It, you know, plants, like I'm thinking of a browser, for example, can remember the exact name I'll look it up, but it plants trees for whenever you use it. You know, and if my values are kind of in alignment with that, then, well, it's a no brainer. Of course, I want to plant trees while I'm browsing, right?

And there's other implications that our values kind of dictate. It's like, well, I don't want to use a tool. For example a criteria could be that immediately. Makes people take out their credit card for a free trial. I've noticed myself, it's very hard to actually find a tool that kind of is already sinking in this new paradigm, new [00:29:00] business, like we're human orientation.

But eventually if enough people give that kind of feedback back to the developers, I'll. I'm hoping that there will be new tools out there that are also aligned with ethical behavior, et cetera, et cetera. So, so it becomes even more important. Yeah. I check usually who owns the company. I like, you know, it's a combination really, but if the company is not well behaved according to values that are, you know, close to me, I, I don't want to use it.

Exactly. Yeah. So that's important. Yeah. Yeah. And I like, you know, there's also external measures like B Corp. I don't know if you're familiar with big corporations. Yes. So that those. Those are helpful to make a decision, right? Yeah. Of course. Yeah. Any kind of [00:30:00] label that immediately tells you, okay, my values are aligned.

Yeah. Yes. Yeah. So what would you say for someone who's listening and who is now, you Or has been in complete tech overwhelm. What are kind of the first steps you advise clients to think about when they're in tech overwhelm on how to simplify their use of tech? I say a few things, but the first thing I would say is disconnect for the tech for a moment.

And realign yourself with yourself. Think of why did you get into the tech for the, in the first place? What is it that you wanted it to do for you? And then start from there. So what do I want it to do? Do I already have something that can do it just kind of like start small [00:31:00] and there's nothing wrong with starting with paper calendar and you know, whatever you need to do to run your business.

And just take things slowly. And because tools, you know, tools are only as good as how you use them. So even if you take a tool that can do a thousand things, maybe you just need two things from it. Just learn to do those two things. You don't need the whole thing. So don't go there. So I would say that's even before you try and find somebody to work with.

Because in the tech overwhelm, just pull back. You don't need all that avalanches too much. We have marketing, we have more food available to many of us, unfortunately, some not, but many of us that [00:32:00] are talking now about owning a business, et cetera, we have way more food offers than we ever could use or consume.

And it's an overwhelm, right? But we've been training for many years to bring in only what we need or mostly what we need, et cetera. It's the same similar skill. It's an avalanche. You don't need to listen to every commercial, every recommendation, every listen to your needs. 1st, 2nd thing I want to say, and that's really important. For people who are uncomfortable with technology or, you know, comfortable, but got into trouble, we need some help trying to fix. Your knowledge or your ability or whatever by yourself, it's sometimes very challenging and time consuming. You might get a shortcut by working with somebody. [00:33:00] Be very, very choosy who you work with, who you get to do, do it for you, because we want to kind of like, okay, you do it.

Be very careful because they don't know your business. Like you doesn't start with it. It starts with you, your business, what you need. And. Ask for help only from kind people. I know that sounds maybe weird in a business conversation, but the first year, exactly. The person you deal with is more important.

Well, not more in the sense of, but if you have two people to ask, go with the person that you're aligned with, that. Kind that is not judgmental or blaming in any way about what you're doing and what you're thinking and what you know and don't know, because this is. [00:34:00] Challenging enough without adding somebody being a bully around you and tech doesn't need bullies.

Unfortunately there's, there are some, so just don't choose to work with them. Thank you. Yeah. Before we wrapped this up, I'd like you to give us a sneak preview of what we'll be working on during our CoLab workshop because we have this chance to have you in our community, the Humane Marketing Circle, and we'll do a 90 minute roll your sleeves back kind of hands on workshop with you, which I'm very excited about.

So tell us a little bit what we're going to be doing there. Okay. So we're actually going to be doing the things we spoke about before here today. And we're going to, I'm introducing a map, which is a tool that we can use. And [00:35:00] this map will help us match our existing tools to our existing needs and see where the gaps are, where there's duplicates, where, how things work and that don't work, and that goes a long way to bring that.

Tech overwhelm and the mess in our head, first of all, into a visual form. And then we can start making decisions and evaluate. And what's fun in the workshop is that we also help each other see. So sometimes we put things on the map. It's so close to home that we don't even see what's visible to everybody else there.

So it's kind of fun to do this together and to start learning a little bit. About our own system and where we can simplify. Yeah, I, I, like I told you in the beginning of this conversation, I love tech and I use a lot, but I've never, you know, [00:36:00] mapped it out. So I'm personally super excited about that.

And, and for me, it's probably going to be more about simplifying. So maybe getting rid of some of the tools or, or combining them rather than adding more tools. But who knows, I'm, I'm looking forward to it. And, and like you said, it's very much about the human conversations as well as, as for all our collab workshops.

But I think especially for the, this one, so that we can counterbalance the, the tech and the mental in essence, so. So yeah, this, this workshop is on November 6th, so please join us there in our community for a little donation. You can join us and the link is humane. marketing forward slash workshop.

Cannot wait. Avital, you also have a freebie on your website, so please do mention where people can find you. Tell us a little bit about your freebie and Yeah. Anything [00:37:00] else you'd like to share? Excellent. So my website is vitalweave. com and when you go there, you can find a freebie right there on the bottom, including some details, but what it is, is my best three tips that are non techie that will check, change your tech life.

Starting today, and they seem very simple and almost like, why is she telling this to us? But these tapes were curated from my clients who come back two years later, three years later, and say, you know, the most valuable thing that you taught me is that's where I got those three So they're misleadingly simple.

I love that. That's great. Yeah. Well, thank you so much for being with me today to talk about [00:38:00] tools and tech and looking forward to this workshop on November 6th. Excellent. Thank you. Thank you, Avital. Thank you, Snara.

I hope you got some great value from listening to this episode. Please find out more about Avital and her work at vitalweave. com. Or even better, join us for the 90 minute hands on workshop on November 6th. You can sign up at humane. marketing forward slash workshop with a small donation because you're going to be inside the Humane Marketing Circle community. By the way, if you're looking for others who think like you, then why not join us in the Humane Marketing Circle community? You get access to all of these collab workshops once per month for free, as well as all the past workshops that are in the recording library, as well as another [00:39:00] monthly call where we connect with the community members and As of two months ago, I think the community calls are actually community led, so they're led by a member of the community, and they're also topics that came from the community, so they're all having to do with business building and marketing and selling.

But all according Oh, Oh, Oh, values. So again, find out more at humane. marketing forward slash circle. You find the show notes of this episode at humane. marketing forward slash H M 1 9 9. And on this beautiful page, you'll also find a series of free offers. The Humane Business Manifesto and the Free Gentle Confidence Mini Course, as well as my two books, Marketing Like We're Human and Selling Like We're Human. you so much for listening and being part of a generation of [00:40:00] marketers who cares for yourself, your clients, and the planet. are change makers before we are marketers. So go be the change you want to see in the world. Speak [00:41:00] [00:42:00] [00:43:00] [00:44:00] [00:45:00] [00:46:00] [00:47:00] soon.

In this episode of the Humane Marketing podcast, Sarah speaks with Marc Winn about how AI and automation can enhance human interactions and support meaningful connections when used with the right intentions.

They explore the impact of AI on marketing and the workforce, reflecting on how businesses can shift from manipulation to empowerment.

Together, they discuss the ethical implications of AI, the role of marketers in creating positive and healing stories, and how heart-centered entrepreneurs can embrace technology to build community, foster trust, and stay present amidst rapid change.

This episode is a thoughtful guide for those looking to partner with AI in a human(e) way.

Here's what they talked about in today's episode:

• How AI and automation can enhance human interactions and marketing, and the importance of using these technologies with the right intentions to support meaningful connections.
• The impact of social media, AI, and automation on the workforce, questioning the future of employment and the potential for a reevaluation of what we sell and how we find meaning in our work.
• The ethical implications of AI, particularly in marketing, and the need to shift from manipulating people's subconscious drivers to empowering them.
• The role of marketers in creating positive, hopeful stories that inspire deep connection and trust, viewing marketing as a form of healing.
• The concept of mutual exchange in business and how businesses can foster connection and community while leveraging technology like AI.
• How businesses and individuals can build optimism and focus on creating something better amidst the rapid technological changes.
• The importance of focusing on the present and using AI to create deeper connections, rather than amplifying attention-seeking behavior.

--

Parterning with AI in a Human(e) Way

Intro with music NEW 2022: [00:00:00] Hello, Humane Marketers. Welcome back to the Humane Marketing Podcast, the place to be for the generation of marketers that cares. This is a show where we talk about running your business in a way that feels good to you, is aligned with your values, and also resonates with today's conscious customers because it's humane, ethical, and non pushy.

I'm Sarah Zanacroce, your hippie turned business coach for quietly rebellious entrepreneurs and marketing impact pioneers. Mama bear of the humane marketing circle and renegade author of marketing like we're human and selling like we're human. If after listening to the show for a while, you're ready to move on to the next level and start implementing and would welcome a community of like minded, quietly rebellious entrepreneurs who discuss with transparency what we're doing.

Works and what doesn't work in business, then we'd love to welcome you in our humane marketing circle. If you're picturing your [00:01:00] typical Facebook group, let me paint a new picture for you. This is a closed community of like minded entrepreneurs from all over the world who come together once per month in a zoom circle workshop to hold each other accountable and build their business in a sustainable way.

We share with transparency and vulnerability, what works for us and what doesn't work. So that you can figure out what works for you instead of keep throwing spaghetti on the wall and seeing what sticks. Find out more at humane. marketing forward slash circle. And if you prefer one on one support from me, my humane business coaching could be just what you need.

Whether it's for your marketing, sales, general business building, or help with your big idea like writing a book, I'd love to share my brain and my heart with you together with my almost 15 years business experience. experience and help you grow a sustainable business that is joyful and sustainable. If you love this [00:02:00] podcast, wait until I show you my mama bear qualities as my one on one client can find out more at humane.

marketing forward slash coaching. And finally, if you are a marketing impact pioneer and would like to bring humane marketing to your organization, have a look at my offers and workshops on my website at humane. marketing. com. Dot marketing.

Sarah: Hello friends. Welcome back to another episode of the humane marketing podcast. Today's conversation fits under the P of partnership. We're partnering with AI. Yes. If you're a regular here, you know that I'm organizing the conversations around the seven P's of the humane marketing mandala. And if you're new here and don't know what I'm talking about, you can download your one page marketing plan with the Humane [00:03:00] Marketing version of the 7 Ps of Marketing at humane.

marketing forward slash one page, the number one and the word page. And this comes with seven email prompts to really help you reflect on these different Ps for your business. Before I introduce my guest today, just another reminder that if you're playing with the idea of writing a business book about change, you might want to consider looking at my Business Book Alchemist program.

I'm only running this once per year, and not sure if I'll run it again next year unless I'll write a fourth book. I'm finishing my third book with this cohort, and in the eight weeks that we have together, we'll refine your big message. Get clear on your ideal reader. Then build a solid outline for your book and also create a marketing plan for it.

The program starts on [00:04:00] November 14th and lasts officially for 8 weeks. I'm saying officially because with last year's participants, we're still meeting monthly in the BBA book lab to hold each other accountable with our writing. It comes with recorded video lessons, so homework, a workbook as well, But also live calls where we connect and have time to really exchange on our big message and the book writing.

So check out the details. If you're interested at humane. marketing forward slash BBA and book a call to talk to me about whether this is a good fit for you. All right, back to today's episode. So my guest today, Mark Nguyen, is a dedicated guide and mentor, helping individuals and organizations navigate the complexities of our modern world.

With a focus on fostering innovation, [00:05:00] building social capital, and nurturing a sense of togetherness, Mark's work is transforming communities and inspiring countless people to reach their full potential. I Mark is the co founder of the Dandelion Foundation, an initiative aimed at creating a better future by leveraging the unique strengths of small island states.

He is also the mind behind the 50 Coffee Adventure, a project that encourages meaningful connections and conversations to drive social change. So join us as we dive into Mark's insight on human centered AI adoption and his vision for a more connected and innovative world. Here's a summary of what we talked about in this episode, how AI and automation can enhance human interactions and marketing.

and the importance of using these technologies with the right intentions to support meaningful connections, the impact of social [00:06:00] media, AI and automation on the workforce, questioning the future of employment and the potential for re evaluation of what will sell and how we find meaning in our work.

The ethical implications of AI, particularly in marketing and the need to shift from manipulating people's subconscious to empowering them. The role of marketers in creating positive, hopeful stories that inspire deep connection and trust, viewing marketing as a form of healing. The concept of mutual exchange in business and how businesses can foster connection and community while leveraging technology like AI, how businesses and individuals can build optimism and focus on creating something better amidst the rapid technological changes, the importance of focusing on the present and using AI to create deeper connections rather than [00:07:00] amplifying attention seeking behavior.

What's funny is that it is only after the episode finished recording that we found out how to apply AI in the form of a background noise cancellation on Mark's Zoom account. I did my best and used all the AI tools I know to make the sound experience as pleasant as possible. But if you do hear some background noise, just appreciate the humanness of this episode.

Let's dive in.

video1863576471: Hey, Mark, so good to see you again. You already had a good laugh,

Off, off recording. So I'm sure this is going to be a, a fun and hopefully also inspiring conversation for, for people listening. Welcome to the Humane Marketing Podcast.

Thanks

Sarah: for having me.

Yeah, it's a delight. Always a delight talking to you and, and like Rachel shout out to Rachel if she's listening, cause she's the one who introduced you having me.

The other way around and, and I [00:08:00] really, she, she told me like, Oh, every time I talk to Mark, it's like blows my mind. I'm like, Oh, cool. I want to talk to him. So we did. And now here we are talking about AI and human and whether that, you know, there's anything ethical about that. So yeah, let's dive right in.

If you're. open to that?

Marc: Yeah, I suppose probably the place to start is kind of what really the moment of realization for me that, that we needed to start having deeper conversations about it. Think I, I ended up in Silicon Valley maybe 11 years ago at a place called Singularity University, which was a place that teaches people about all of the crazy technology that's now arriving and the fact that it was going to arrive far faster than we realize.

And so I learned about all of these crazy, fabulous, amazing tools. And it blew my mind. And it took me seven days to get to sleep [00:09:00] again after kind of hearing about the craziness that's arriving. And I was getting the plane home and I stayed in San Francisco the night before, after doing it. I, I I was walking past the Twitter head office.

And or near in that area. And I just was thinking that there were tens of millions of dollars being raised to deliver food to that building. 10 minutes faster or three minutes faster or something like that. But meanwhile, there were people homeless outside for drug addiction and things like that. And I started to really question and this is at the forefront of innovation and technology and things like that.

And yet, and all of this money going into stuff, but right outside, there was stuff that really mattered that Was being left behind and so I think for the past decade a lot of my focus has really been around how do we bring together this very kind of human world with this [00:10:00] extraordinarily incredible possibility in a way that we don't get some of the unintended consequences of our actions and how does governance itself. Do you know, how do we regulate all of that? And how do we realize that the, the solutions may be arriving in different silos to the ones where we're currently managing for them. And there's, you know, there's some very, very smart people doing some unwise actions. Things in the world.

And so in this world of artificial intelligence you know, there's a deeper call for artificial wisdom, maybe, or birth of wisdom. And so, you know, a lot of my work in the last decade is really about, you know, the intersection of where humanity meets technology. And this idea of something new feels like it's being born and and many of our old systems are [00:11:00] collapsing under the scaling complexity of, of, of the era we're in and and, you know, deep down, we all feel like something isn't right. And, you know, I used to be a marketer myself you know, I know this is a marketing community and a direct marketer, you know, really focused on data driven insight and conversion and all the kind of standard of marketing stuff, but, but essentially underneath it all, we were kind of using people's subconscious to, drivers and fears to manipulate them into our desired outcomes.

And I started to realize, well, you add AI to that, infinite power and superhuman persuasion. And at the time, 11 years ago, I saw things like Cambridge Analytica. I saw things like Trumpism arriving before Trump even arrived. And ultimately that's the whole world trying to manipulate other people. To do what they want to do rather than what is in our [00:12:00] individual best interests, you know, be it The amount of time we're on screen time having all these amazing behavioral scientists and neuroscientists leveraging Ever more powerful tools to get to do things that aren't necessarily Thriving be it the newspapers pulling us in with huge headlines or clickbait or all of this kind of thing and so I felt that my own gifts were part of the problem When I started to think about the amplification of of what what I know.

So many ways. I started to move away from. You know, manipulating others into empowering others to to. To be in their own wisdom and to do things in their individual and collective best interests. And then how do you actually build a mode of governing ourselves from that place? So yeah, I'm 10, 11 years into that process and I probably have more questions than answers.

But these are incredible, amazing tools that do we have the wisdom to use? To use them wisely. [00:13:00]

Sarah: Yeah. I think that, that really is the big question, right? Because like you, I'm fascinated by the intersection of the human versus the artificial intelligence and people are sometimes quite surprised because I talk about all things human marketing, like we're human selling, like we're human.

I'm writing my third book business, like we're human. And, and yet. To me, artificial intelligence is an integral part. That new paradigm that I love to talk about because in my view, it actually helps us to be, or to go back to be more human. And so I guess I would like to have your perspective on that as well, because right now there's two opinions.

The one that says, well, AI or chat GPT in marketing is, is just there to dehumanize. everything and [00:14:00] it dehumanizes the interactions and it dehumanizes the, the, the, the messages. So is that true or is there another way to use AI to actually, you know, make that humanness come out in a different way?

Marc: So it's all about intention for me. Like the same tool used with misaligned intention. Can deliver vastly different outcomes. And so it's like, it's not really the tool that's the problem. So if I'm using it, I need to create more time that I can pay, spend time with another human being in deep care and deep love, and that is a tool being used to support my humanness, just like zoom is being used right now to have this conversation.

It's like, you know, this is the one that says this is an artificial conversation because we brought two humans together. Together that otherwise wouldn't have the time to be able to reach each other and so You know [00:15:00] like like all things it could be used to separate or to connect. It can And so and really it's around what is the intention that these tools are being used for so, you know Say we've got this we've got airline here in my community.

It's under Lots of stuff. It's kind of breaking because planes are not going right and the customer service is really Bad because they can't scale to a crisis. And so you couldn't employ enough humans to be human, right? And well actually if you've got systems that can expand and scale and And communicate in a human like way that can support people When they need it in an emergency when you can't provide humans And the current alternative is to be a robot and not available then And people being struggling at airports and all of this Kind of stuff and in crisis and not knowing what to do and all of this kind of stuff but if you've got an Intelligence system that can solve every problem rather than if you press button five And then button three and then about two you [00:16:00] can solve this particular problem, which isn't the problem.

I'm really wanting a

It's an act of care to provide a tool that meets people's needs. It's an act of love to design a system that cares, even though you're using technology. You know, so for me, I have this I'm a huge proponent of using systems from a place of love, care, and connection. And you know, AI is like magic. If used in the right way with the right kind of, you know, Emotion.

Sarah: It leads me automatically to the next question, which is, well, are humans ready for that tool? You know, because if we're saying it's a great tool with the right intention, then maybe what we need to work on is the intention because the tool is already smart enough.

So it's the intention that we actually need to work on. And so how [00:17:00] do we, how do we work on that? How do we get humans ready to use the tool with the right intention?

Marc: Well, it's not only using it, but it's also about how susceptible are you to manipulation? You know, so like if you have loads of subconscious fears or stories and things like that, it opens you up to people using superhuman persuasion to, to, you know, if you have a fear of death, you're much more likely to be sold health products and all this kind of stuff.

So in many ways the inoculation is, you know, what I always say, you should actually teach kids. about marketing and behavioral science, not because to get them to manipulate other people with it is so that they become more aware of what's driving the bus when most messaging is subconscious. And. Yeah, and so, you know, there's this, I think most of us have been through that aging process where we get wiser as we get older.

[00:18:00] And that's kind of the shift in consciousness we go through as we evolve during, you know, our lives and humanity has to go through. a real shift for it to Be able to build systems in a way that don't have those consequences So you look at something like facebook or smartphones and things like that We can see all around us that this death of a thousand cuts has happened where everybody's just living in this kind of screen Like every single one of the thousands and thousands of decisions that went into that was probably made sense Logically and smartly but somehow we've ended up in a place where we're All in the same room but disconnected from each other.

And so it's like you know, we've accidentally lost ourselves and we can see that with climate change or like with something like that you know, like can you really solve a problem like climate change without Without understanding that over consumption [00:19:00] Is a maybe a self worth issue like, you know, am I enough, you know?

Or do I need more to To be someone and recognizing that, you know, these tools are manipulating that Sense of not enough and then how do you how do you how do you market pay a bill? when Your whole business model requires people to consume more even though it may not be in their best interest And so that interesting gap between wants and needs You and how do we, how do we, how do we get technology to support us what we really need rather than what we can be manipulating to wanting and I, you know, I kind of always look at what, say, how billionaires operate.

Themselves, you know they'll a lot of them have an amazing assistant that is like the world's best ad blocker, you know You know what I mean? They don't really need to use the internet themselves or anything like that because it'll be facilitated and [00:20:00] so we kind of you know need to look at those kind of tools and stuff that we can build which are you know, the wise owl that sits on people's shoulder and and supports people, to choose the higher selves in moments of You of kind of manipulation.

So I think it's an extraordinarily interesting time to be a builder that cares. I think there's never been a better time to you, to develop kind of technology with wisdom and technology that can bring us together and technology that can create magic and wonder and all of these kinds of things.

But also there's, there's never been a better time to create lots of unintended, Consequences.

Sarah: Yeah, I think that's the issue that I have is that we don't have enough examples of good people using AI right now. And that's why there's so much fear because people look at the. Not so good examples, [00:21:00] you know, the, the, the, the LinkedIn bots putting, you know, AI chat, GPT messages and spamming people and things like that.

And so they're like, you see, you know, that's what AI is going to do. It's going to dehumanize everything because the good people, I'm just putting the two of us in the good people side, you know, there's not, you haven't seen

Marc: me on a bad day.

Sarah: But I'm just saying, there's not enough people who, who talk about doing business for good, who are also saying, yeah, but AI can be actually really good if we use it with the right intention.

That's what I'm seeing.

Marc: So a LinkedIn bot, I'm like, why wouldn't you use a LinkedIn bot to spread delight and wonder and mischief? You know, I was thinking about developing a belly laugh app the other day, just to, just to send belly laughs to people and things like that. You'd [00:22:00] be really good at that.

Yeah. Record yours. Yeah. And it's just like, well, why would you automate something that would bring joy, laughter, and kindness? So, you know I think a friend of mine, Nipun Mehta, who does a lot of stuff around AI and wisdom, highly recommended stuff, and he's like, what about the seven viral virtues, you know, and how do you actually get to that?

technologies to support the virality. I, you know, again, it's, it's like, I love the idea of a LinkedIn bot that just makes people laugh and, and, and it's about value, right? Yeah, you see a lot of these LinkedIn bots and it's all about what can I get? What can I get? And then sometimes it's a bit lazy and and it's like, Literally, it's like, I'm a human being.

Why would I even respond to that? It's not even clever. Exactly. Well, that's what I

Sarah: mean by bad examples, right? But it doesn't

Marc: mean you can't be, you can't use the same technology and genuinely be clever and funny. [00:23:00] And well, but humor is my Brand essence and things like that mischief and playfulness.

I'm not going to design something using these tools I'm not afraid of using these tools which kind of but I I would use them that really spread the essence of me to find That kind of deep resonance with other people, but you've also got to say well look if everybody used those tools which is increasingly getting easier and easier to do.

We just break every social platform. There's so much noise, like the information overload right now is, is getting exponentially worse. And so, you know, to even get connection, you know, the depth of connection that has two people trust each other enough to work together. You know, that isn't going to come from the scaling the shallow, right?

You know, that's, there's, you know, there's a reason why I kind of wrote a book on having coffee and, and teaching people to have coffee was, I think, in a world of ever increasing shallowness and scale, the ability to go deeper is kind [00:24:00] of the social network raster class. So, you know, I've had 10, 000 coffees in the last decade because I didn't think the other stuff would, would work that well as the noise did.

You know, because everyone's like me, me, me, me, me, me, me with all this technology and amplifying the need for attention when, you know, and, and what we really want is the need for connection. And then when you, if you start with the premise on, okay, how do we use technology to support depth and trust an emotional connection.

I think we build very different things. And that's the paradox

Sarah: for me, that that really is the paradox. And that's why I believe that AI is actually helping us to create more spaciousness, to have time for those coffee chats. Yeah. Because right now people don't have the time. They're like, I don't have the time to talk to someone for 45 minutes.

I have all these things to do. We have all these, this busy work [00:25:00] that we keep doing. Especially as entrepreneurs, often it's not even paid work, right? It's just like all these marketing messages and content plans and all of these things. And that's where AI is actually really good at helping us create that, if we even need to create that.

I'm all about questioning our assumptions as well. Like, do we even need to create all that love? So yeah, people want depth more, right? And so that's what AI helps us create. create this more spaciousness to then spend time on a thousand coffee chats. And that's where the humanness comes back.

Marc: And we're also going to realize that the world we're moving into is very different.

You know, the idea of free intelligence, free energy, free labor, if we And like making money is something, you know, capitalism itself starts to break down in the next [00:26:00] decade or two as a result of if you draw the line of where all of this is going, because we're automating parts of our process today.

But you know, you add a humanoid robot to that kind of thing and like everything can be done All needs can be provided and things like that with that kind of technology that's arriving And so it's like what are we selling when there's nothing to sell and how do we make? We have no needs that can't be met by you know The robots and the ais and all of that and the free energy Around us, right?

And so Yeah

Sarah: Yeah, that's huge. Like, yeah, what do we sell anymore? How

Marc: do we find meaning in that process? Which, you know, I'm kind of the global conversation around meaning is, you know, around me since that WikiGuide diagram went around the world and things like that, that are responsible. There's a crisis of meaning.[00:27:00]

Happening in the world right now. In in many age groups as people are trying to reconcile where, where do they fit in, you know, as the world is changing very rapidly and the old stories of who we are are moving in. And so, how do you find. Intrinsic motivation to when your old identities kind of dissolve, you know because, you know, we are more than our jobs or who we are with something deeper, but that process of discovery of who we are and what we find joy in when the workplace is going to radically change, it is changing.

And how do we, yeah it's just like a. It's a very kind of strange time to be alive, you know, we're all kind of going through a process of death and rebirth, whether we like it or not. And it's like yeah, the need for attention to pay the bills is a kind of temporary state that I think we'll have to raise questions about whether we need to do that.

To do that anymore. And [00:28:00] then, and I always kind of say to my wife and it's like, vague, it's like, when the robots come out, you know, our marriage is what's left.

Let's work on that bit, you know, rather than understanding the importance of all of these tasks that need to be done in everyday family life. And and likewise, you know, when the robots come and, and who you are, And AI comes, who you are is what's left out of all of this stuff is done. It's like, what would you do when nobody is looking just for the sake of the joy of doing it? That's, that's

Sarah: really interesting. Cause it in the, in this new book Business Like We're Human, I basically feel that we have to work on our relationship with work right now. Yeah. I think that is for the next five or so years. That is our main thing because also of you know what's going to come but for [00:29:00] me also because if we want to run businesses like we're human well right now we're working all the time and that that's not human or humane.

But then also to To tie back into climate, the climate crisis and all these other crisis we have right now, we cannot solve those if we're constantly working to pay our bills. So we need to free our time for creative thinking, for just, you know, being human again so that we can tackle those and, and probably AI will help us with that as well.

But I do believe that as humans, we need to redefine who we are. When we're not working, that is kind of like the question of the of the decade. I feel like, like, who are we if, if we're not working, if we're not defined by our work, because I, yeah, I didn't take it as far as the robots coming, but yeah, that's where we're going, right?

Marc: Yeah. Whether it's

Sarah: robots or AI or [00:30:00] whatever it is.

Marc: Yeah. And it's like, what are we, what painting do we paint with that? We've kind of grown up with many kind of dystopian views of, Of what the world can be with that and I'm I'm more hopeful than that. But also recognizing that in in business terms I think about capital flows during that kind of period.

And, you know, if we think about, you know, say the Holy Grail is in 10, 20 years or whatever, or 30 years, depending on your understanding at 40, 50, a hundred years or whatever, and you say, okay like how much money needs to flow to create a world of human thriving within planetary boundaries, you know So the energy system needs to change the health system needs to change all of these kind of things And so huge amounts of money Needs to move to facilitate that transformation.

So I you know, I don't really like we need money to end money I kind of always say and it's like [00:31:00] I think it requires the best marketers the the best businesses the to You you know, to shift all of the resources from this kind of extracted deficit, extractive deficit based world that is around human coping to you know, this regenerative asset based world around human thriving that will unlock more wealth than we can ever imagine.

Imagine to the point that wealth becomes pointless. So I don't really necessarily think it's an either or Thing it's not something we need to create time with our jobs to then have something else I think we'll see exploding industries and businesses that come from people who care that want to build something human with all these great tools That actually are unafraid to make money in the process of doing it because they, they're willing to inspire people to be hopeful and to move to another world.

And and you, you see all sorts of brands starting to emerge that, that, that [00:32:00] attract lots of resources because, you know, I, it's not an either or thing. Like there's, you know but it's, it's messy, you know, going from caterpillar to butterfly and I, I don't necessarily have all the answers myself, but I, I don't you know, the idea, you know, I think there'll be an explosion of wealth but because we have all of these machines and potential, and we'd be able to create more circular ways of doing things, more regenerative ways of doing things, and like, you know, really well, people are better.

And people who are below the poverty line, you know, create income and and money for businesses. And you get a load of struggling people behind the poverty line, that's not good for anyone. Or people with chronic disease or all of these kinds of things, that's not good for anyone. And I think once we start lining up kind of these entrepreneurial desires with what the world really needs and what we all need, and we get into creating a much, much bigger pie for everyone.

Then, you know, we'll all do much better than we did before [00:33:00] monetarily as well as. And, you know, these tools can help us do that, but we need to all kind of learn to line with our own best interests and humanity's best interest heart, but, you know, part of that is how do we learn to get along enough to find out enough about each other to be able to collaborate to find out what really matters to us individually and collectively.

And I think we're struggling as a, as a human race. With that right now,

Sarah: yeah, that's, that's the main thing. It's like, yeah, the outer stuff is all lining up for us, but are we ready in terms of the inner job? Are we doing our inner job? And

Marc: yeah, I mean, I can't even create agreement in my own family, you know, how do you create agreement in the world?

And it's like, man, this feels like the tension, you know, it's like we have all of this limitless possibility arriving, but can we get out of our own way? to, to to manifest it. And I think this is the, I think this is the real role that marketers play which is [00:34:00] telling these really positive, hopeful stories that not just for people to consume, but to inspire people, you know, to be the best selves and, and to create the thing that they're, they're born to create and to be okay to do that perfectly.

And in a human way and to create that kind of, you know, viral deep connection that comes with people. being alive.

Sarah: Yeah, I love that. That's kind of a a good place to to come full circle. I love how you did that It's like, oh, yeah, it's all about the marketers

Marc: I did start off as a marketer So, yeah, I can spin a story I can't do much but spinning a story

Sarah: That's great.

No exactly and I think that's really You What, [00:35:00] what we're working on is like, you know, marketing has been taught as an outside job for so many years. What I'm trying to do with humane marketing and some friends and colleagues are, you know, they're calling it differently conscious marketing and Claudia and other people.

It's like, well, What if we start from the inside? What if market, a marketer is actually a healer, right? That's, that's what this is about. And it's, it's, you can call it a marketer or you can, whatever, a facilitator, whatever it is, right? If, if more people heal themselves and then help others heal, that's, that's.

Marc: Yeah. I mean, I tend to, cause I work right across community and I knew the language of consciousness and healing and stuff really resonates and connects with a certain part of the community. And be at whatever stage and kind of the adoption curve that is, although that's rapidly changing. But to me, it's just good marketing.

Like, let's not cloud [00:36:00] it with its own form of words. Bureaucracy and stuff like that. It's like, you know, the whole point of marketing is to emotionally connect with people to create a mutually beneficial outcome, right? That's just good marketing. Let's not dress it up. And like, we're just, we're just learning in this era that there are ways of marketing better and deep connection and trust is one of the core aspects of, you know, Marketing for as long as I've known it and it's just like we're we're learning our craft collectively.

We're getting better at doing that and let's See it something else or them and us. It's just It's just good marketing.

Sarah: Yeah, that's really good. I always ask now that I'm working on this book the final question is like, what does business like we're human mean to you? Like when you hear this term business, like we're human, what comes up for you?

Like, what, what does that make you [00:37:00] think of?

Marc: Yeah, for me, it's like this idea of mutual exchange. Yeah. You know, I think in the consciousness community, there's a lot of fear of receiving, I think, and You know, I kind of always had these visions of like, kind of the Italian markets and things like that, where there's this great flow of abundance and handing over the money and fruit and beautiful stuff coming the other way.

And there's all this kind of love and conversation and things like that. So that, but there's still trade because, you know, it's, it's. It's a, it's a pain in the ass to do barter, you know, it's exhausting to like find the right person who's got the bits, you know, so there's, there's something magical in as a technology [00:38:00] commerce itself that, that allows previously impossible exchanges to place. And I think there's beauty in that. You know, the market was a place of conversation and connection and wonder and beauty and care. and you know, that to me, and it can take all forms, but the essence of that, that it's something done together from a place of, but there's still this kind of exchange going on.

That's, for what that means in a modern context. You know, it's not sitting at home, pressing one click on Amazon, watching Netflix for three hours a night. Not speaking to anyone, not going anywhere that to me isn't human business, it's business. But

Sarah: Yeah. It's also, it's like buying from not a human, but this giant mega list of company, right?

Where on the market you see the person that you're buying from. So you [00:39:00] like, there's this establishment of trust as well.

Marc: But it's not to say that I haven't had amazing things from Amazon or amazing things from Netflix. And that there is an art and wonder and love that's been put into all of these things.

And, you know, we've just got to hold it lightly and say, well, okay, how do we just tweak these things a little and then be a little wiser about how we're using them and then try and build these systems in a way that bring us together rather than drive us apart. And and I think that'll be good for business, you know maybe, you know, Netflix becomes the world's greatest party planner or something, you know, like that brings people together.

I'd pay a subscription for that, you know, took all the effort by meeting and, you know, Amazon was creating pop up markets all over the world to create kind of wonder. I think these things will end up being massive. Businesses that will create more commerce than the current kind of disconnected way of doing things and it's just these are really complex, complex problems is, you know, working [00:40:00] globally, but the bringing us all back to each other.

Whereas I think, you know, globalization is has driven a lot of convenience, but it's also driven a lot of disconnection. And I think. You know, the businesses of the future will be much more fractal that allow us to be human and in villages and at Dunbar kind of scale of connection, but still provide us with that kind of convenience and wonder.

But I think that's where things like AI are really interesting because they can hold all that complexity that I kind of hunter gatherer localized minds can't hold. And when those 2 things work in unison that work in our individual and collective best interest, then I think we'll, we'll create.

Wonderful, inspiring, connecting businesses that will not be the same as the Italian markets that drove that, but will be even better. Even

Sarah: better. Even better. I don't know about that one.

Marc: What if that was possible? How magical would the world be?

I like to, you know, see the, I [00:41:00] like your

Sarah: optimism. Yeah. Well, as I

Marc: say to my dystopian friends the day we all die, at least I would have enjoyed myself on the way there. What's the downside for hope, right? You know, that's the, and so, yeah, I, I, I, I'd like to think we could live in the world where the wonders of the past and the wonders of the future meet together to create something better than we can even imagine today.

I don't think we have a choice.

Sarah: Yeah, we don't want to be stuck where we are, so Well, we

Marc: can't. We can't unify unless we honor the past and bring forward the magic of the future and do it in a way that honors us all, in a way that inspires us all and connects us all. I don't think we have a choice about that because everything else leads to, you know, a huge kind of dissatisfaction and disconnection of one society, part of society over another.

So, you know, it's [00:42:00] a time for the hopeful imagineers to, you know, that COVID phrase, you know, build back better. I don't think we And you know, this is about society turning from a caterpillar into a butterfly and and you know, we're in the messy bit it's hard for a caterpillar to see what a butterfly looks like from that perspective, right?

So like we it's hard to imagine from where we are going into the liquidation Liquidation that there could be a mutable butterfly the other side I don't want to you know, spend hours and hours of my life fearing for the future Yeah I want to be part of building the butterfly and not to say I don't spend hours and hours of my life figuring for the future, but like when I remember, that's pretty pointless.

I get back to the, you know, the everyday wonder of spending time with amazing people, building amazing things as you do, right? And that's always what turns me to hope is when I'm in a conversation with someone like you, realizing that there are people like you all over the world in all sorts of different ways doing amazing things.

And [00:43:00] that whilst it's not always easy to see on the news feeds and the social media feeds, like if you spend enough time out in the world, you, you can feel, you can feel all over every day. And whenever I'm feeling overwhelmed or stressed by the future, I just go and have coffee with someone wonderful.

And it reminds me that I'm not alone in this And There are people building technology from care. There are people Bringing the markets back. There are people like doing all sorts of but you know with thumb up machines and all of these kind of other other bits and pieces that that will you know, yeah But we'll find our way.

Sarah: We're just

Marc: a little lost right now.

Sarah: Yeah, well, I, yeah, I definitely want to talk again to you because every time I speak to you it's like, oh, you see, there's so much no, no, I'm usually a very optimistic person as well, and I still am. Surround myself by, yeah, content and, and ideas and inspiration. But yeah, talking to you, [00:44:00] it's, it just confirms all of that.

It's like, yeah, that's exactly what I'm working towards. So it's been a, it's been a delight to refresh my memory with your wisdom. So so much for coming on today. You spend a

Marc: day with me when I'm in family life, you'll see. See, I'm not that wise, you know, there's no pedestal here. I spent time thinking and feeling about certain things.

I have some gifts, but I also have many, many weaknesses. And so I don't want to cover this space. I'm good. You know, this is my gift. But please don't get the wrong idea that I don't spend lots of time in my struggle as well. How British of you to

Sarah: be so humble.

Marc: Self deprecating, I think it's

Sarah: the

Marc: culture of birching ourselves.

Sarah: And I'll just have to mention that I'll have to use the best AI possible out there to clean up the audio from all [00:45:00] the mic sounds and stuff.

Marc: Do our best.

Sarah: I hope it wasn't too terrible

Marc: to listen to. Yeah, and the builders started hammering half way through it, but I think that's the best. The magic.

Although I, although I, I invite you to put out an imperfect live offering that shows the humanism. Yeah, we'll do a mix of

Sarah: humanness. We can't, you

Marc: know, polishing everything also loses some of its. Some of it's magic. It's like romantic almost. As long as you put a good story on it, it's fine.

Sarah: Good. Well, delightful to hang out with you, Mark.

Thanks so much for being here.

Marc: Take care.

Sarah: I hope you got some great value from listening to this episode. Find out more about Mark's work at markwin. com or [00:46:00] connect with him on LinkedIn. And if you're looking for others who think like you, who are wanting to create this new paradigm of marketing and business, then why not join us in the Humane Marketing Circle?

You can find out more at humane. marketing forward slash circle. you find the show notes of this episode at humane. marketing forward slash M 1 9 8. And on this beautiful page, you'll also find a series of free offers. The Humane Business Manifesto and the free Gentle Confidence mini course, as well as my two books, Marketing Like We're Human and Selling Like We're Human. Thank you so much for listening and being part of a generation of marketers who cares for yourself, your clients, and the planet. We are change makers before we are marketers. So go be the change you want to see in the world. Speak [00:47:00] [00:48:00] soon.

In this episode, Erno Hannink joins me to explore how mission-driven entrepreneurs can make decisions that align with their values and create meaningful change.

We dive into the power of habits and decision-making, discussing how aligning choices with personal values reduces mental fatigue and fosters personal growth. Erno shares insights on the importance of courage, and how businesses can go beyond profit to make a positive impact on society and the environment.

Tune in to discover practical ways to build habits that lead to lasting change, both in life and business.

Here's what we talked about in today's episode:

• How aligning decisions with personal values can help automate decision-making and reduce mental fatigue
• The impact of social media and news consumption on decision fatigue and mental health
• The importance of courage in decision-making, especially when aiming to create impactful changes in life and business
• How incorporating habits like gratitude and regular check-ins can enhance personal growth and communication
• How small, consistent changes in decision-making and habits can lead to lasting impact in our personal lives and the broader community
• Why businesses should go beyond financial success to consider their impact on society and the environment
• Erno's decision book, which helps improve the decision-making process by reflecting on the journey, not just the results

Free Info Session on October 9th.

Watch this episode on YouTube

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Intro with music NEW 2022: Hello, Humane Marketers. Welcome back to the Humane Marketing Podcast, the place to be for the generation of marketers that cares. This is a show where we talk about running your business in a way that feels good to you, is aligned with your values, and also resonates with today's conscious customers because it's humane, ethical, and non pushy.

I'm Sarah Zanacroce, your hippie turned business coach for quietly rebellious entrepreneurs and marketing impact pioneers. Mama bear of the humane marketing circle and renegade author of marketing like we're human and selling like we're human. If after listening to the show for a while, you're ready to move on to the next level and start implementing and would welcome a community of like minded, quietly rebellious entrepreneurs who discuss with transparency what we're doing.

Works and what doesn't work in business, then we'd love to welcome you in our humane marketing circle. If you're picturing your [00:01:00] typical Facebook group, let me paint a new picture for you. This is a closed community of like minded entrepreneurs from all over the world who come together once per month in a zoom circle workshop to hold each other accountable and build their business in a sustainable way.

We share with transparency and vulnerability, what works for us and what doesn't work. So that you can figure out what works for you instead of keep throwing spaghetti on the wall and seeing what sticks. Find out more at humane. marketing forward slash circle. And if you prefer one on one support from me, my humane business coaching could be just what you need.

Whether it's for your marketing, sales, general business building, or help with your big idea like writing a book, I'd love to share my brain and my heart with you together with my almost 15 years business experience. experience and help you grow a sustainable business that is joyful and sustainable. If you love this [00:02:00] podcast, wait until I show you my mama bear qualities as my one on one client can find out more at humane.

marketing forward slash coaching. And finally, if you are a marketing impact pioneer and would like to bring humane marketing to your organization, have a look at my offers and workshops on my website at humane. marketing. com. Dot marketing.

Ep 197 intro: Hello, friends. Welcome back to another episode. Today's conversation fits under the P of passion of the humane marketing mandala. But also all the other P's because we're talking about making decisions. If you're a regular here, you know that I'm organizing the conversations around the seven P's of the Humane Marketing Mandala.

And if you're new here and don't know what I'm talking about, you can download your, One page marketing plan [00:03:00] with the humane marketing version of the seven piece of marketing at humane dot marketing forward slash one page, the number one and the word page, and this comes with seven email prompts to really help you reflect on these different piece for your business.

Before I tell you a bit about my guest today, allow me a quick plug for my upcoming business book alchemist program. The business book alchemist is a small group program for aspiring renegade authors who want to write a book that becomes part of their life's work. I've hosted this program for the first time last November and led a small group through creating their book outline, message and defining their ideal reader.

We are still meeting monthly to hold each other accountable on our writing. And one of them has already submitted a chapter to a multi author book. So if you've always thought that one [00:04:00] day you'll write a book, then maybe the business book alchemist is for you. And that one day is right now. The business book alchemist is for change makers and trailblazers before they are authors.

That's why we. call them renegade authors. They really care about the message more than about just being a featured best selling author. It's for first time authors who are looking to write a book that makes a difference. coaches, business, marketing, life, health, and more who want to write a book that becomes part of their life's work, and any other heart centered and service based entrepreneurs who are looking to write an authentic book that reflects their unique voice, experience, and insights.

So I'm calling it business book alchemist, but in the new approach to business. So this is not just a how to book to [00:05:00] do something in business, but it really is aligned with this idea of doing business like we're human. Or is aligned with bringing change to business. So those are the kinds of people that I'm looking for, for this program.

As you probably know, I've written two self published books about change, marketing like we're human and selling like we're human. And I'll be working on the finishing touches of my third book, business like we're human during the program. I wanted to share all of my learnings with heart centered entrepreneurs and aspiring authors, empowering you to write a book that becomes part of your life's work, because your message needs to be heard.

So, if you do have a message that needs to be heard, now is the time to become a Renegade author. And writing a book is kind of like having a baby. There is never the perfect time. But if you do it now, you'll be supported by like minded people [00:06:00] and way beyond the eight weeks of the program. Again, we're still meeting monthly with the members of the previous program.

And all you need to do to be part of that monthly ongoing community is Join the humane marketing circle. So join us now for a free info session on October 9th. That's 4 PM UK time. You'll find all the information. If you go to humane. marketing forward slash BBA. So business book alchemist humane.

marketing forward slash BBA. And the link is also in the show notes. Otherwise, you can also just send me a message if you have more questions. And yeah, I'm not sure if I'll host a program again next year. Maybe I will feel the calling to start a new book, and then I'll definitely run it again. So I'd love to see you on October 9th [00:07:00] for the free info session, and if you can't make it for that time, just send me a message and we'll find a time to talk one on one.

All right, back to today's episode. My guest today is Erno Honink. Erno is a sparring and accountability partner for entrepreneurs committed to creating sustainable, positive impact. He explores the nuances of decision making and shares his insight through articles, books. Podcasts, newsletters, and practical tools.

With a life mission to reduce social and ecological inequality, he's dedicated to empowering others to make meaningful, impactful choices in their entrepreneurial journeys. Here's what we talked about in today's episode, how aligning decisions with personal values can help automate decision making and reduce mental fatigue, the impact of social media and news [00:08:00] consumption on decision fatigue and mental health.

The importance of courage in decision making, especially when aiming to create impactful changes in life and business, how incorporating habits like gratitude and regular check ins can enhance personal growth and communication, how small, consistent changes in decision making can lead to lasting impact, why businesses should go beyond financial success to consider their impact on society and the environment, And finally, Erno's decision book, which helps improve the decision making process by reflecting on the journey and not just the results.

So without further ado, let's dive into this conversation between Erno and I.

Sarah: Erno it's good to have you on the Humane Marketing Podcast. Welcome.

Erno: Thank you, Sarah. It's

Sarah: good to be

Erno: here. Yeah.

Sarah: Yeah. It's good to be with you at a distance. We are one of those few [00:09:00] people who met in real life which is always nice, right? To have this human connection. And that was in in Coal this, this summer, earlier this summer.

So I thought. Why not follow up with somebody who's in the same kind of movement talking about inner to outer. And then I looked you up and you're talking about decision making decisions with impact. I'm like, Ooh, yeah, that, that makes for a good conversation. So let's talk about decisions. And I guess we're going to go into habits as well, because that kind of goes together, but let's start with decisions.

Like, I, I looked it up. It's something like 35, 000 decisions every day. Is that, is that possible? Like, do you, do you know that if, how that's been measured, but it seems like a lot of decisions every day.

Erno: Yeah, I'm not sure what the exact number is. I, what [00:10:00] the thing is if you look at the work of, um, book, what's his name?

I forgot his name. Daniel Lieberman. No, that's not the one. Atomic

Sarah: Habits.

Erno: No, it doesn't really matter what you have. You have what he calls system one and system two parts of your brain. Well, they're not actually parts of your brain, but that's how they respond. And it's, I think it's, it's just, everything is derived from, you know, habits is derived from that idea.

That what you want to do is whenever you have a decision to make that most of the decisions that you make are pretty automatic. Like if you count six plus one, you, you know, the answer, right? You know, the answer is seven and it's automatic. You don't have to think about it. Well, you actually do think about it, but you're not.

You know, you're not consciously thinking about the topic. And because it's been so ingrained into your brain that you know, you can instantly say the thing. And the [00:11:00] same happens, for example, by putting on clothes on in the morning for most people or you know, brushing your teeth because it's, Stuff that you regularly do at the same time after like, you know, something you did before that, that's related to brushing your teeth or taking a coffee, whatever it is, it's a very regular thing that we do.

But in, in, you know, in, in theory, they're all decisions, right? They're all decisions that we make. I'm going to brush my teeth. Teeth now, yes or no. Right. And, but if you think about conscious decisions that we really need to think about, that's really a conscious part that we need to think about. You try to minimize those because it costs a lot of energy of your brain.

And our brain already consumes a lot of energy in total of our body consumes the most energy that we do. And we want to try to minimize that, you know, by just automating decisions. And only think about the decisions that [00:12:00] really are difficult or important to us you know, like longer term decisions or you know, things that you are not, you don't know the answer to, you haven't ever seen before, new situations that you're in.

So, for example, if you see a line. your automatic decision, even if you have never seen a line, is to run as fast as we can. And what happens in your brain is it shuts down you know, this part in the front of your brain where you regularly, really consciously think because if you need to think about, oh, this is a line, so would he attack me maybe?

Is it, what kind of color does he have? How fast is he running? And all this stuff, if that's going to happen in your brain, by the time you stopped thinking and you made a decision, you probably already been you know, attacked by the lion and you have no time left. So all this stuff, you know, even if you haven't been in a situation, then sometimes we exactly know how to respond and you don't really think about it.

But there's other situations where you really need to think about it. And [00:13:00] it all comes down to like thousands of decisions a day. And that's why it's important to save energy by creating habits. And the most, you know, difficult part of course, is that we create habits that contribute to the things that we want to accomplish, that the things that we stand for, that underscribes our values and all these things that are important to us, that we really do make automatic decisions that really, you know, support us and what we really want to accomplish.

Sarah: Yeah, it sounds like there's two separate or different things. One thing is creating habits for, for the decision fatigue, almost like, you know, the small things, what do I eat for breakfast? I remember hearing Tim Ferriss talk about that back in the days when he wrote the four hour workweek book. And it's kind of like, oh, it's the same thing every day.

And that just takes one decision out of, away from your day, you know? Works pretty well [00:14:00] for me. I have my oatmeal every morning and it's just like, I love it. I actually look forward to it. And it's kind of like, Oh yeah, I don't have to think about it. And so the other thing we can then do is also build on habits because I eat my oatmeal.

That means that then after I'll have my tea and then after I'll do my yoga. So they all kind of go together. Right? So, so that's one thing and that it's great, but then. What you also talked about is the bigger decisions. And that's really what I want to talk about with you is, is like decisions for impact, right?

But they go together because I feel like if we spend or waste our time on all the small little decisions, then we probably don't have the time or the spaciousness to. actually invest and think about the, the bigger decisions that have a bigger impact. So, so let's go there. Like, how can we, how can we know [00:15:00] and identify what truly matters and make decisions from that place?

I think that's what it comes down to. Down to us, like, how do we know in the, in the inner development goals? One of the skills is the inner compass, right? So like, how do we go there and make decisions from that in their compass?

Erno: Yeah. I, I, and I just want to come back to it because It previously, I was referring to the book, thinking fast, slow, fast and slow.

This is by Daniel Kahneman. He passed away last year, earlier this year. But he had, he's done some great research on thinking and decision making. And I think thinking about the larger, more important things to us in life. Um, really you don't, you don't have less time to think about those things by being consumed of smaller things to think about, because in general, I don't think [00:16:00] if it's smaller, you don't think about it, but if you look at the inner compass, it gives you. A so, so what the inner Compass does to me, I, I wanna make this personal 'cause maybe it works differently for you, but if you, if you, if I used Inner Compass, I have like an idea, a vision, it's related to my values of what I want to accomplish in life.

What is important to me once are, you know, what's. What's the things that I feel is true or false or important, or, you know something that I have influence on, for example, right? So there's also, in my opinion, there's no real reason to be really busy about things you don't have influence on. And if you know that, if you know what your compass is, is if you know what your true North is, or your North star, then It becomes a lot easier to make decisions because what I do then is [00:17:00] whenever a decision comes to me, for example, if somebody asked me if I want to join this group or this team, or if I want to do this work or I want to work with this client, I can start by looking at my inner compass and that goes pretty fast.

Seeing if this really helps me if it supports the compass or it's just a different direction, or it will just pull me away from a compass and everything that aligns with it, that's, you know, that helps me to basically say yes in the, you know, as a starter. And then I can look into deeply. Do I have time for it now?

Does it, you know how much work is it? So all the other decisions that come after that, but the, so weeding out most of the decisions. By just looking at my compass, my inner compass, and seeing all the decisions that I have to make or questions that be asked to me or interviews I need to do which don't align with my compass, I can just say easily no to, right?

So that [00:18:00] already shifts so many things from my plate that that frees up time. These are not small decisions. They are all big decisions, but they free up time by just making very quickly, okay, does it align with my compass? My values? Yes and no.

And the other thing, which doesn't really help have to do a lot with decision making, but or maybe it does because we consume a lot of media every day. So we use social media, we see the news, we watch, we read newspapers, we watch, we listen to a podcast or we watch the news. So we consume a lot of media in general as humans every day with social media, even more than ever, I would say.

And also with social media by these algorithms the timelines are a lot influenced, biased. So they are biased with opinions of others that are like us. So people that we kind of trust or people that we [00:19:00] feel have similar opinions to us, we see more of those messages or opinions or whatever coming by.

And we kind of get like numb for those things, especially when we see a lot of news that's. Um, negative that's like about war or about floods or droughts, and especially when it's far away. We see so much negative news. So we kind of like become numb for those images. And at the same time we also become like fatigued from those, from that information.

It clutters up our brains and. The, the weird thing, of course, is it doesn't have a lot to do with our decisions, but because it's like, it's about, you know, frightening situations, about terrifying situations, like a war, or like you see people in the floods, you see cars flowing away in, in Austria, by a river that's [00:20:00] overflowing.

And then our brain tells us there is something really terrifying going on. And it goes like in sort of like, Fight flight mode and makes a decision, what can I do now? And in general, we can't do anything. It's far away. It, we don't have to do anything. There's not a lot that we can do, but it still, it fatigues our brain and that to me doesn't really have to do a lot with decision making, but our brain feels like it needs to make decisions and the, the best way to, you know, make this.

less of a burden to you is to avoid news or make the amount of news or media that you consume less. And the ones that you do consume that is related to your inner compass, for example, that's the information that you've, you know, you're really interested in, make that more. So make sure that you get. A wider perspective on the situation so that you have a clearer view on everything and just the negative part, but also the positive part and the, [00:21:00] you know less biased parts so that it all becomes more a really evaluated information flow that you can trust and think, okay, now I can merely make decisions.

Can I do something? What can I do? Thank you. And then you can think about what is it that I actually can do. And that, I think also helps you to become more impactful because it will tell you the things you can do. And that feels like I'm making an impact that feels also that you have, you know, less feeling that you're like Not able to do anything about it and just becoming fatigued from information without doing anything about it.

So to me, that is like a way of reducing decision making between brackets. Quotes, I would say, but. It's not really, you know, it's just a brain thinking it needs to make decisions. And there's really nothing to decide because you [00:22:00] can't do anything about it right now. So that I would say is going to help you more with reducing fatigue of your brain decision fatigue.

Sarah: Yeah. I love that you brought that up with the, with the media. It's, it's true. I didn't think of asking anything about that, but it's so related because it all Spaciousness and that's kind of like my favorite word these days and so we eliminated the small decisions because we created healthy habits. But then you're right.

Our brain is still bombarded with all the media stuff. So we need to also block that. That out. So then we just have this like quiet space where we can actually focus on the decisions that, that, yeah, that do have an impact. And, and the other thing you said that the decisions that we actually can control, right?

What's in our control and what isn't. And it's [00:23:00] true. I see my, I saw myself scrolling through YouTube with all the floods and, you know, in Eastern Europe and things like that. And it's, well, it's okay to be informed, but it's not okay to then kind of feel, yeah, frozen almost like. What do I do now?

Like I, it's, it's almost like you get into this mini depression and feel like everything I do is basically pointless because it's called, it's all going to shits. So, so yeah. Which isn't

Erno: true either, right? No, which

Sarah: isn't true. It's just like, yeah, exactly. And I remember I, I was Spending a lot of time in the sustainability field and it was like, just so negative, everything was, you know, that was being shared was negative.

And, and that's why I then moved to the IDGs, the inner development goals. Cause I'm like, I can't, if we're all burning out because we feel like [00:24:00] nothing can be done and it's all, it's all doomed, then that's not helping anybody. And so decisions for impact to me means. decisions coming from a good place, a healthy place, right?

So that's why I think your opinion about, you know, creating, creating barriers around ourselves to keep us sane and healthy and in a good space so that we can make those good decisions is really important.

Erno: Yeah, and I think to be clear, I, I, I do believe that we are going to shit. So I do believe that the way that we acting today as humans is just ending our lives as humans on the planet, right?

It's not ruining the planet, but the planet will continue to turn for millions of years when we've gone probably even do better without us. And that doesn't mean. That until that time [00:25:00] we can do a lot to improve our lives, right? So if we look, for example, at, you know, the floods and droughts that are getting closer to us, right?

We see floods in our closer in Europe, let's say, for example, we see floods that to spaces or places and cities that we've been on holiday and it. Becomes like closer to us. We see, Oh my gosh, I've been there. I've stood on that bridge. I've, I've walked through a town and the river was so quiet and, and, and nice.

And now look at it, what's going on. And but this has been going on In countries around, you know, the equator for, for many, many years, like in India, it's plus 50 degrees. It's sometimes unlivable droughts in Africa, Northern Africa for a longer time. And it's all due to the things that we are doing on the planet, like burning fossil fuels.

So if if you look at that picture everything that we [00:26:00] know from science, everything that we know that scientists have been telling us for years are true and you know we are just warming up the planet with burning fossil fuels. And right now it doesn't seem that a lot of people think that we need to change this or not.

At least the actions don't show it, right? So we, we, we keep supporting fossil fuels. We keep buying cars, we keep buying new stuff and working with plastic. So there's a lot going on that I believe. That will, you know, make this planet unlivable for humans and other animals. Which

Sarah: brings me to courage because I think courage is needed for any kind of change making and especially for.

You know, decisions with impact. So how can we encourage people to, you know, use more courage when it comes to decision making and, and stand up for their values and worldview?

Erno: I think it [00:27:00] has a lot to do with. Creating a perspective of what you can do as an individual. So if you believe that everything that's going on around you is out of your control, you can do anything about it, then you will just be staying and living the way that you do now.

You watching a Netflix and you just go to your sports and you just go to your office and do your work that you need to do, but to the, you know, the company that you work and you just think, okay, I'm going to live my life and I'm going to just You know, earn money and just continue the way that I do, because I don't see any way how I can change this.

So what we want to do is tell stories. I was going to say paint pictures, but I think telling stories is better. Tell stories, how we as individuals can make changes. And especially in relation to what is. And I'm thinking about the book, Saving [00:28:00] Us by Katherine Hayhoe, and she is a professor in climate and what she's telling in the book and saving us is about, you know, you normally would say saving the planet, but this is about saving the humans.

Right. So, and what she's saying is that she's. Sharing stories with groups of people talking about climate, but every time when she is in front of a group, she's translating that topic to the values of those people that she's talking to. So she's looking at the values of the group, the people that she's talking to, sees what is important to them in relationship to the climate, and then shines a light on that part of the topic.

So for example, when she's talking about to farmers, she's talking about droughts and talking about having you know, floods about crops that go to waste because there's no, not enough water. And then they understand, yeah, this is really going on. We've been seeing that in our own farm that this is happening right now and, and it, and then they listen to, so what can we do to change this?

And then you can give [00:29:00] them some steps to what they can do. On their farm to make changes slowly to overcome and at least change that situation. So to me, it is about a lot about telling stories and making sure it relates to the values of the people. So, because then you can, you know, you don't need a lot of courage to start working on this.

You just need the right coach. You just need the courage that fits with your values. And if it's close to your values, it doesn't cost a lot. It just. It's just another step of what you've been doing. It's not like something completely different that you're picking up now. Right. So I think it has to do with making visual.

What the small next step is for the person that's sitting across to you, what they can do as a next step. And then coverage is just, you know, it's just a small part of that.

Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. And, and, and that kind of brings us to, to marketing because, you know, you're on a podcast called Humane [00:30:00] Marketing. And so people could go, well, what does all of that have to do with marketing?

Well, it doesn't. Has a lot to do with marketing because storytelling and marketing are essentially the same thing nowadays. And, and so what humane marketing also stands for is to, yeah, to encourage change makers to talk more about things that, that matter and, you know, the, the values that they stand for and the, the, the world, their worldview.

It's all related. And if we bring that back to decision making help me out here. Like the, the decisions to, I think the decisions is, do I stand for something? And do I bring that into my, my work? Marketing that's what I always encourage my clients to, to say, well, make your worldview your niche.

So meaning [00:31:00] bring your worldview into your business, into your marketing and, and, and tell these stories. Yeah. That, that also can influence other people, not just to make them buy your stuff, but to make a change, right. That's in the end, that's what we all want.

Erno: Yeah. And the scary part, maybe he is, if you, if you bring a story to your world, which your world isn't ready for right now, or is not familiar with.

That's, that's a scary view, like making a decision. Do I want to incorporate that in my marketing? What if nobody likes it? So there's a lot of Well, there's the courage, right? Yes. That's the courage. But what you, but what you can do. Is if you, if you make, I like the phrase doing good louder, I forgot who would, who I first heard it from, but doing good louder means, so you, you, [00:32:00] you do something to improve your life, to improve other people's lives, to make like a a better future.

And and often it's a very, these are very small steps. There's small things that you do to make a difference. And, and we don't talk about it because we feel it's. It's small, it's like tiny, nobody really cares about that. But a lot of people don't know about this, what they can do. And they're looking for examples.

They're looking for how, how do I do this? And so if you talk more in marketing about the things that you already are doing as a company, not as a. Greenwashing thing, but as like real examples of what you're really doing. I think that gives people perspective of what they can do, like real life examples of how they could do this.

In their company, in their business, or as a private person, as a consumer, how they can do this. So to me yes, [00:33:00] painting a picture, telling a story to attract clients. Is attract people. I would say even better is a good thing. That's, that's, that's great. And I would say if you. Start talking more about the things that you're already doing that look very tiny and small to you.

Um, but other people have never heard about it. They don't, they don't know how to start there. They don't know what to do. Like there was this challenge in the Netherlands, which is buying no new stuff for a year. So it, it started really small with just a couple of people joining the challenge and what it did was bringing people along, because it's something that everybody can do.

They can think about the decisions they make about buying stuff, because if something breaks down, you need to buy something new or you, or you see something in you know, in Instagram or Facebook, whatever you see something, you know, you think about buying that. And [00:34:00] every time we do this and you're part of this challenge, you go like, okay, do I really need this?

And is there a different thing that I can do? If let's say, okay, I agree. I really need this because I've, I've just broken something. I really need the same thing again, because I need. This stuff in my life. Can I get it secondhand? Can I get it fixed? Right. So then by becoming a part of this challenge, looking at all these decisions, you can make like see small changes, which in the end reduces your consumerism, which has a great impact on, you know trash or plastics or, you know, burning fossil fuels.

There's a lot of things that goes into. Consumerism, it's, it's one of the biggest, um, classes of, of, you know, the, the shit that's going on today. I bring it really negative. So yeah, I think it has a lot to do with just being the example living, Like an example, not to be saying, Oh, I'm the best at this, but just showing how it can be done.

Sarah: [00:35:00] I like that. And it's, it's true. So many small stories where we think, Oh, well, I've been doing this for a long time. It's obvious. Probably thinking everybody's doing it. And, and yet you find out, no, they never heard of it. I hadn't never heard of the, a challenge like that. And it's a great idea because the minute also you get into community and more than just one person doing it, there's, there's just some different energy to it.

And it's, yeah, it's kind of the, the. The, the motivation the exchange of, of motivation that is really encouraging.

Erno: And I'm talking about marketing, right? If you, if you look at marketing as an organization, as a company, you can do the same, you can build like a community about around your company or your goals or your vision and do the same.

Just, you know, by sharing the stories, helping people to tag along and just do stuff like you do in the group. that do stuff like you do just grows and more people will become [00:36:00] like you because they do the stuff like you do and they like it a lot because they feel like. They are connected. They are a part of this group.

And that's what we all as humans, like, we need to be like part of a group of humans that we can feel related to. So if you are an organization or a company yes, please do spend a lot of your energy in marketing and resource in your marketing on building that community, setting an example and showing these examples so that people can follow you and not just to be like a leader as like an ego kind of thing, but be a leader.

As in like building a community and the people, you know, have examples how they could change and, and feel a part of this, right? So feel like I'm one of those people who's making a change and it feels good.

Sarah: Yeah. It's like, Belonging is probably this, the, the, the word that comes up and that's exactly what we're craving at this time because we, yeah, we just feel so separated and, and we're [00:37:00] basically numbing ourself with.

Buying and making all these stupid, tiny decisions that that are, yeah, taking up too much of our time as we're coming full circle in this, in this chat, I would love for you to share, I don't know an example. So you, you shared the challenge, but maybe an example of a personal decision that you've made in recent years.

That had a huge impact on, on your life or, or career.

Erno: It's of course, a very difficult question. There've been, there've been millions of decisions, right? If you look at like 30, 000 per day or 40, 000 per day, there's been millions of decisions that has made a change for me because I have what I call a decision book and a part of what I, you know, what I use in my, my practice and my coaching practice is if you have a.

A larger decision, a tough decision. You really [00:38:00] want to think it through. So the decision book helps you to think it through. It's, it's for free, so you can just download it and use it yourself. But the important part is that you write the stuff down, how you thought about the decision. What decision you made?

Why did you make the decision? What influenced it? What else could you have done? So, so everything are in questions in the decision book and the writing down and looking back at, you know, the decision making process. Afterwards, it's so important to improve your decision making process because a lot of people think if you look at the results of the decision, that will help you to improve the process, but that's not true.

The process isn't part of it in itself. So you have to decision making process. So you think about, you know, the decision, you think about everything that you couldn't do, what the effects are, and then you make the decision. And then you act. On the decision, but after that, a lot of things can happen in life and can make a lot of changes [00:39:00] to what's going on.

And you have no control over that, right? So there's stuff happening outside your control, but it influences your decision. Oh, actually the results of decision, but you don't control it. So, so this would happen. This could happen like a toss of a coin. What would be the result? But by looking back at the decision making process, like after a couple of months.

You improve the process by looking, okay, what could I have done differently in that process at that moment? And how would that maybe have impacted my decision? Not the results, but my decision. And I think that's one of the things that I feel is really important to me is by carefully examining which decisions do I need to write down, write out and completely analyze and then look back afterwards to see how I can improve my decision making process.

That's one thing. The other part is I, I, I've been mentioning this the last couple of months for a couple of times is [00:40:00] becoming part of the Inner Development Goals Network, especially the Global Partitioners Network. At some point I was asked to join the Global Partition Network. Team who organizes the meetings every month and by becoming a part of that team of how they the way that the team together organizes the events prepare for the events have discussions has taught me so much about.

Looking at people about being grateful about space for silence about asking how people are doing during the discussions. Because sometimes if you, if you look in normal business life, normal we don't have time or don't feel the space to really check how people are doing after something we had happened in a discussion, but here it's like in grind in a team and it makes so much of a difference of how The dynamics is [00:41:00] going on in the team and, and how I feel related to these people.

And that to me has taught me so much in the last two years that I think this may be, and it's, yeah, the weirdest thing of course, is that sometimes you feel like, because you ask this question, so how the decision has really made an impact and change that made an impact to you. The impact is in fact, really tiny.

But the results, if you stack them up, it's huge, but since it's like an everyday process or every week or whatever you don't notice it. It's, it's become like a new normal to you. It's become a new normal, how you respond. For example we do these check ins. And since we do them at every meeting, it becomes a very normal thing to do check ins at meetings.

So every time I have other meetings, I try to propose, it doesn't always happen, like do a check in. And what I see then, for example, one of the team members doing, [00:42:00] she's thanking the other people who've done a check in before her and then builds upon that. It's, it's a very different thing. And you could say difficult thing for me to do to thank people and be, you know, thoughtful about what they said.

And instead of just thinking about me, just thinking about them and what they said and just, and using that as a bridge to continue. And I'm trying to incorporate that in the way that I now communicate with people to be grateful and to be thankful. Saying thank you for what they do and it's, it's changed the way that I communicate it now so much.

And it's, and again, once you do that, it becomes like the new normal. It becomes so normal that you don't see it as a new thing or a new impact thing or like a great decision that you've made and how it changed your life. Because it's just, it's just a tiny thing, but it did change my life. I know that.

Now, and I see it [00:43:00] now.

Sarah: I love that. Yeah. It's really, it made you become a different person. And I, I think that's also the, that's the power of these decisions. And then the habits that go with it, because what you just described is a habit. Okay. Meeting, which we can begin with a check in. That has become a habit.

And so it's become part of who you are. Right. So, so that's, that's really, yeah, that's the outcome or the result. At the same time, I would say it's the impact because man, it's just like. Yeah, you're a different person than you were before. So, yeah,

Erno: yeah, definitely. Yeah. It's, but it, you know, if you, if you look at like from a very timeline point of view, you could look at it like it is, or let's say before situation after situation, right?

So you have the before, so you didn't know this. And after it's, it's like the new normal.

Sarah: Right.

Erno: In between that phase, you're, you're constantly thinking about okay, I need to do [00:44:00] the check in with this team and I need to thank the people who come before me even though this group isn't used to it and they may think I'm weird, but I have to do this to get into this habit myself.

Sarah: And

Erno: at some point it becomes like the normal and it's like, it's like a habit, like you just mentioned. So it's the new situation. And then everything before that is like, okay, this is normal to me. I have no. You know, it doesn't really stand out anymore. And it's, but it's, it's, it has hugely impacted my life, but it's, it's the new normal now.

So, so do you think, did it really impact me? Yeah, it did.

Sarah: Yeah. I love that. It's, it's, it's. It reminds me of the, you know, the, the little drips on a, on a, on a rock. It's like, well, it's just one tiny drip. Yeah. But over time, well, that can create a huge crater or whatever. So, so yeah, it really is very, very powerful.

And it, it, it shows that, that we [00:45:00] can change. So habits usually are kind of like criticized and people say, well, I can't change. I'm just Like that, right? Well, no, you, you can change. And so I guess that's the, that's the encouragement. I, I'd like to leave listeners with today that, yeah, you can make decisions that have a huge impact, probably not the week after, but just like Erno said, two years later, you're a different person.

And so yeah, thanks so much for, for giving us all this food for thought, Erno. Please do share again where people can find you and where, where they can find your, your decision book to download.

Erno: If you, I think the best and easiest way to connect with me is on LinkedIn. It's just Erno Honig, but you put the link in the show notes and the decision book can be found at ernohonig.

com. Just look for decision book there. And you find it and you can just download it, [00:46:00] you can use it as a PDF, I believe, you can use it as a, as a doc, as a document that you can just edit in your, your favorite word editor, or you can use a notion which is also a great tool I like I have a template for that too.

Sarah: Very cool. Well, thank you so much. I have one last question. I'm working on a, on a book called business like we're human. And I'm asking my podcast guests. What comes up for you when you hear business, like we're human, what kind of thoughts come to your mind?

Erno: The,

I think in general what we believe is the way that our economical system works today. That's like definitive, that's the only true economical system that we know, and there's [00:47:00] nothing else. And there's, this is the only right thing, right? So having like a gross national product looking at growth, endless growth also, you know, also in businesses, right?

So thinking about every year you need to add 10 percent to your revenue and to your profits and everything. So endless growth it's, It's everywhere. So this, and if you then think about the human part, as humans, we are not growing endlessly. We are, we have a lifetime to grow and then it ends. And what we do in that time is to pass on our knowledge to the next generation.

Right. We 12, we try to give them ideas, seeds. I would say, if you look at nature, we give them seeds to build their own Um, garden, their own forest. And I think that looking at that way of business is, is there's not always, we [00:48:00] don't always need to grow. We don't need to always think about making money with our business.

We can also think about how we make impact or how we support other people in our neighborhood. Or how we support our parents. And. I think we don't see that as business, but it is a part of our human life. It's about who we are as humans. So to me, I would say humans are closer to nature than to business.

And the way that we look at business is just. It's a couple hundred years old, so if it's that young, we should be able to change it to something that is more regenerative, more friendly. It takes more care about well being than about welfare. So to me, business is closely related to economics. And to me, that shouldn't be, business should be more related to [00:49:00] nature.

So that's what I think about when you just give me that line.

Sarah: Love it. Thank you so much. I might just mention you in the book. Thank you, Sarah. Thank you. Thanks so much for being on the podcast. It's been fascinating. Thank

Erno: you. Thank you, Sarah. It was great to be here.

Ep 197 outro: I hope you got some great value from listening to this episode. You can find out more about Erno and his work at ernohannink. com and look for his decision making book on his website. Talking about books, remember to join us for the free info session on October 9th if you have ever thought about writing a book.

You'll find all the info on humane. marketing forward slash BBA. And if you're looking for others who think like you, then why not join us in the Humane Marketing Circle? You can find out more at humane. [00:50:00] marketing forward slash circle, and you find the show notes of this episode at humane. marketing forward slash H M 1 9 8.

And on this beautiful page, you'll also find a series of free offers such as the Humane Business Manifesto, as well as my two books, Marketing Like We're Human and Selling Like We're Human. Thanks so much for listening and being part of a generation of marketers who cares for yourself, your clients, and the planet.

We are change makers before we are marketers. So go be the change you want to see in the world. soon.

In this new episode, Sarah sits down with Emily Shull to explore the complex relationship we have with money. They delve into why many people find this topic challenging and stressful, discussing common beliefs and narratives that shape our financial decisions.

The conversation highlights how our upbringing and family culture influence our perceptions of money as adults, and the emotional aspects that play a significant role in our financial behaviors. Together, they address the taboo surrounding money and share insights on fostering open, healthy dialogues.

By examining the difference between scarcity and abundance mentalities, Emily provides practical steps for entrepreneurs to begin healing their relationship with money, ultimately guiding them to align their wallets with their true purpose. Tune in for a compassionate discussion around a dry topic: money!

Here's what we talked about:

• The reason so many people have a difficult relationship with money and why it causes stress.
• Common money beliefs or narratives that people develop and how they influence financial decisions.
• How upbringing and family culture shape the way we view and interact with money as adults.
• The role of emotion in financial behaviors and how we can become more aware of it.
• Why money is such a taboo topic and how we can start having more open and healthy conversations about it.
• The impact of scarcity mentality versus abundance mentality on our relationship with money and how to shift towards abundance.
• Practical steps people can take to begin healing their relationship with money.
• A teaser for what we'll work on during the Collab workshop on October 2nd.

 

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Intro with music NEW 2022 + 4

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Sarah: [00:01:00] [00:02:00] [00:03:00] [00:04:00] [00:05:00] Hi, Emily. It's good to see you, hear you. We we see each other regularly because we're in this book lab. And so it's good to have this conversation just one on one with you on the Humane Marketing Podcast. Welcome.

Emily: Yeah, thanks so much. Thanks for inviting me, Sarah, and I'm really looking forward to our conversation.

Sarah: Yeah, talking about a taboo, money, right? You, you made that your topic, so we're gonna dive right in and I'm gonna ask, start by asking you why Why is it a taboo? Why do so many people struggle with this [00:06:00] topic of money? What have you seen in your work?

Emily: Yeah, that's a great question. Money, our relationship with money is so complicated.

Because what we're taught about money is that it's just math, it's numbers, it's accounting, it's logical. So you should be able to learn about it easily, make good decisions. And that's what it's all about, you know, making things add up, but our relationship with money. It's actually something that we feel inside of us.

It's very emotional. It has a very long history that's been starting since the time that we were born. And so it's, it's a difficult and complicated and taboo relationship because it's so filled with emotions and are very deeply personal history. And so what I do as a holistic money coach is help people connect these two things.[00:07:00]

Their rational mind that wants to make good decisions with money that has intentions for their lives and wants to fulfill them and this emotional side that sometimes contains these unconscious drivers that are keeping us from reaching the goals that we that we want for ourselves.

Sarah: Yeah, you called them unconscious drivers, I guess.

Is that the same thing as limiting beliefs, something else that we often hear limiting

Emily: belief. Yeah, you can, you can identify them in different ways. Another, another way to think about that is that it's different parts of ourselves. When we're making a money decision, we have all these different parts that want to chime in and have a say in that.

And so. 1 is the logical part that says, no, we don't need another sweater. And then another part comes in and says, oh, but oh, but this makes me feel so cozy. And it reminds me of what it was [00:08:00] like to feel like, really warm and snuggly as a child. And then another part that's kind of shaming and saying, no, why are you even having this conversation?

You know, we don't need this. You need to be responsible. So there are many ways to think about this. unconscious part.

Sarah: It's interesting. So it's, it's conscious, unconscious left brain, right brain, maybe mind and heart. So it's always these yin and yang. You could probably also say that, you know, the yang part is, is the logical part.

And the yin part is the more kind of like flowing and being in harmony and just using money. When it feels good, right? So yeah, it's, it's so interesting. So what, what are some examples of, of some of these beliefs that maybe we have formed in our childhoods? Because I think you did mention this story with money [00:09:00] starts in our, in our early years, right?

Or maybe, and that's a question to you, maybe it actually goes even beyond that. Like, maybe it's our history that starts even before we were born and it goes into the history of our ancestors as well. I, I personally believe that. So curious to hear what you think, and then maybe you can give us some examples.

Emily: Yeah, I think that's absolutely true. Our relationship with money goes so far back. Oh, my goodness. Yeah. So when we're born, our parents beliefs about money and everything that they experienced, which includes their parents beliefs and everything they experienced and back and back and back. That is all put upon us when we're born.

So this is what we're born into. And this becomes our money beliefs. And 1 of 2 things happen. We either we usually [00:10:00] just take them on. We inherit them. They become ours until we mature and see different ways of being with money and then decide for ourselves how we want to be. Or we reject them, we say, we know this is totally not us.

This is not the way we want to be. And so we do something completely different. But either way, it's an unconscious decision until we mature and. Really take a look at ourselves and our own experiences. Then we're able to tease apart. What is actually inherently mine? What are my values around money versus what I was born into my parents and the culture around me and what I find is that.

It's so deeply personal, so there are so many layers of our origins with with money. We're affected by our environment. You know, the, the country we were born into our culture [00:11:00] has a big impact on how we think about money. If you think about some Asian cultures, save, you know, 30, 40 percent of their income in the United States.

I think the savings rate is in the, in the single digits. So that's 1 impact. And then as you go narrower, then there's our parents and household that we grew up. You know, when I grew up, if we didn't eat out that much, but when we went even to a fast food restaurant, my mother was very frugal. So, you never ordered the big sandwich, you know, you never ordered the drink.

You just got your drink at home. Whereas in another, you know, a friend of mine, you know, that wasn't the case for her. But it all really filters down to your own personal experiences. So what I find is that even though in our environment, and our parents play a big role in what we think about money, it's really our own lived experiences that have the biggest impact.

And it's [00:12:00] usually related to something that happened, as when we were children, and that just hasn't been brought to light that hasn't been healed. So I'll give you an example of 1 person that I worked with. She came to me because for her money was always. A struggle, she just felt it felt heavy.

It felt like no matter what she was doing, no matter how much income she was bringing in or what her assets were. It felt like a constant struggle. And this may have been surprising if you looked at her life from the outside, she was very intelligent and talented. She had multiple. Degrees, she was respected in her field of work, and she did all the things that you're supposed to do to to have a good relationship with money and to make it work.

You know, she read books, she followed strategies she had a supportive partner, yet she still felt this constant struggle with money. Like she was. Yeah, like she was in it on her own, and that was always really hard. [00:13:00] Well, what we found during our work together was that it was tied to her loss of her sister when she was very young.

So when she was about 10 years old, her sister, who was close in age, died, and her parents really turned inside at that time in their own grief. And so there was no space for her to, to express her grief and to process that. Yeah. Yeah. And then, in addition to that, her mother died when she was in her early 20s, and her father quickly remarried and really abandoned her after that.

And so when, when we looked at her history, not just related to money, but her family history as well. It was really surprising how directly this was tied to the feeling of struggle. It was all about feeling abandoned and not having that family support that she needed at that very crucial age. So, I see this In my work with everyone that I [00:14:00] work with, it's it's not just about what is our money belief, but what very specific situation happened to us that brought that and usually it's not something we would ever associate with money.

Sometimes it could be money related, but other times it's not. It's just a purely developmental wound that almost all of us have.

Sarah: Yeah, I'm so glad you shared such a deep example because that really shows how deep this, this goes, right? How far back we need to go and, and how, how many layers we need to uncover.

And it's very vulnerable. Work to, to go to these places because usually they're, they're not exactly happy moments at least from what I've seen because we talk about money in the marketing, like human program as well. And it's, it's usually not. the happy moments that created these limiting [00:15:00] beliefs, right?

It's something that happened in our childhood that, yeah, was, was difficult, probably. Not always, but not always like, you know, as difficult as the example you shared. For me, it, it really had to do with not feeling guilty to be a business owner. Because my parents I, I grew up in a small hippie community, as, you know, Emily and, and, and like all the people in, in that community were from the working class.

And so the the entrepreneurial world, or, you know, the people making money were not. Put in a good light. And so I, I just had to uncover that and go, Oh, but I can actually be an entrepreneur and make money in a good way for a good cause. And it's not money is not bad per se, right. It's the intention that, that counts.

And so, yeah, just uncovering those. Those layers is so, [00:16:00] so important. I was thinking also when you were talking that you're, you were saying it's, you know, it's very personal and it truly is. And then often what happens in life, we, you know, find a partner and get together with someone else and we get married.

And oftentimes today, if we're married, well, the money kind of merges, right? And then there's two human beings with completely different money stories, and that is not always easy to manage either. Do you sometimes work with couples as well, or, or does maybe not together, but. Is that a topic where it's like, oh, but I have this money story and he or she has this completely different money story?

Emily: Absolutely. Yes. So I work with couples sometimes. It's often kind of like a can of worms because it is so difficult because, because we all have our own money [00:17:00] story that most of the time we're not even conscious of where our own money patterns come from. So you put two people together who are not conscious of where their money patterns come from, and it's, it's, it can be impossible to have really constructive Arrangements, I was going to say arguments, sometimes arguments or agreements or conversations about this, because you don't even know where it's coming from for yourself.

So, the 1st step is to understand. Your own money history and then to understand where your partner is coming from. And that's the only way to move forward when it comes to money. But there are so many layers in that. And I find that couples. There's so much going on within a relationship so I don't do much couple work myself because of that.

Sarah: I think it's probably borderline therapy there, and you're not a therapist, right? That's not the same thing, so, because I would argue that there's probably a lot of couple, work [00:18:00] that goes back to money. And so, yeah, that, that is definitely has to go into couple therapy and not, not just money, because like you said, most of them are probably not conscious that it's because of their different money stories that they have you know, relationship problems.

Anyways, we, we digress, but, but it's yeah, it's interesting that it has, it didn't. Impact so many different aspects of our lives. And of course, here on this podcast, we talk about, you know, entrepreneurship but also marketing. And, and when I did this research and created the marketing, like we're human program, I really looked at this idea of abundance and how that impacts, yes, your.

You know, beliefs about money, but then also your beliefs about marketing, meaning that if you come from a abundant [00:19:00] perspective, then marketing doesn't feel as heavy anymore because you don't feel like you have to push or persuade or, or, or manipulate even, right? Because you just feel like there's enough out there for me.

And the same thing applies with money. But I'm curious, To, to hear your perspective on this often talked about topic between scarcity and abundance mindset, right? We're, we're hearing everywhere, Oh, you just have to have an abundant mindset, but how can we have that if we are, haven't healed our childhood wounds yet?

Maybe.

Emily: Yeah, I think it all goes back to the childhood wounds. So, yeah, so this example of talking about abundance versus scarcity. I think it's, it's always more helpful to get as as specific to your unique circumstances as possible. So, what I mean by that [00:20:00] is. Marketing. I'll give you an example from my own life.

The first time that I marketed a program. Oh, my goodness. I was so resistant to sending an email to my network because I didn't have a list at that time. So it was just people that I knew. Talking about this free webinar that I was giving, I wasn't even asked them to buy anything, but I was so resistant and I tried to really figure out.

Oh, my gosh, what is stopping me from doing this? And at 1st, I thought it was I thought it was. My, my environment of you know, my mother, I remember her telling the story when we were young of her father was in business with his brother and his brother somehow cheated him and became rich and my mother's family stayed poor.

And so there was this belief that, you know, wealthy people are, you know, take advantage of people and I wanted to be a nice person, so maybe somehow this was related to my marketing challenge. But the more that I sat with that, I [00:21:00] realized there was something much deeper. So, it was this voice that I kept hearing when I was trying to send that email was I don't want to bother people.

And so that was a much deeper message that I received growing up of feeling like I was bothering people when I was sharing something that maybe they didn't want to hear what I had to say. And so, instead of talking about, do I have a scarcity mindset or an abundant mindset, I think the most direct way to understand our behaviors, whether that's.

You know, to do with managing money or marketing our business or selling our product. It's always going layer by layer to see where is this coming from? What is this feeling that I'm feeling in my body? When was the earliest time that I experienced this? What is this really about? Because when we get to the root and we heal that, then all the other behaviors [00:22:00] disappear.

We're actually able to act in alignment with our true intentions. Transcribed Yeah, it really

Sarah: is this domino effect, right, where you, when you go back, then all the other dominoes kind of start to fall in place and yes,

Emily: and so much of what. Is out there as solutions is it's it helps in the moment. For example, if you have a fear of visibility, you know, you can try to talk yourself out of that.

Oh, of course, these are my, this is my network. They won't be bothered by what I have to say. If they're not interested in my webinar, they simply won't attend. It's okay. I can send this email. So that might work in the moment and I can send the email and have my webinar. But then the next time I have to do it, it's all going to come back again and again.

So if you're able to get to the root of it, then you won't need to take these steps again and again and again. And it yeah, it, it connects us more to who we [00:23:00] are more of our, our core self. And that's really the beauty of doing money work is that it. It makes you feel better, not just about money, but about yourself.

And it connects you more to who you are. It's ironic because so many of us don't think of money as a spiritual thing. In fact, it's often thought of as the opposite of that. But in my opinion, doing money work is one of the most spiritual and personally connecting things that you can do because really to get to the root of it, you have to understand yourself on a level.

And and become more compassionate for yourself on a level that you hadn't before.

Sarah: What would you say to You know, some of the offers around money coaching they promise you, you know, a six figure business or a seven figure business, or, you know, they're promising you that you can manifest money [00:24:00] whenever you want because you now healed your childhood wounds.

What do you think about that?

Emily: Well, I think they usually don't talk about the childhood wounds. They talk about a strategy that they offer. That's going to get you the 6 figures. And strategy, it, it can only go so far. If you're not. If you can't implement it, because you're stuck, because you have all these unconscious, beliefs, then then it's not going to work.

So then you just need to go a little bit deeper. I think most of these programs out there, they just don't go deep enough. And that's they work for people who are capable of implementing them. But if you're not, because you're stuck somehow, you need to understand where that stuckness is coming from and deal with that 1st.

Sarah: Well, I would add that I think a good money coach just like any good coach [00:25:00] cannot make promises about, you know, you now making tons of money because you healed your money story. That's to me, not what money work is about. It's about. Yes, healing those wounds and, and, you know, helping you to live your fullest potential and have a healthy relationship to money, but there's no promise that.

You know, you are in this lifetime meant to make a million dollars and, you know, maybe you don't even want that. So, so it's just like the two things are not related. It's like, it will help you yes, heal that, heal that story and, and, you know, maybe not spend everything every time you, you get money, but it's, it's not going to help you just have money fall from the sky either.

Emily: Yeah, a lot. Yes. That's a really good point. So I do see that some money coaches are really like wealth coaches. Like they want you to be wealthy and that is their goal for you. [00:26:00] And my goal for people that I work with is to help them feel more calm around money. Like their, their money goals are their business, right?

I know desire or, you know, yeah, it's completely up to them. When you, yeah, as a coach, if you go into it thinking, well, you're, you know, you should be rich and I'm going to teach you how, well, that's different from having a healthy relationship with money. That's just. I'm going to make you wealthy.

Sarah: Yeah.

Emily: Yeah.

Sarah: I'm glad we clarified that. So what would you say are kind of the next steps for people who are listening? How can they start on their own to heal their money story?

Emily: Yeah, so paying attention to what you're feeling in your body when these money challenges are coming up is a great place to start.

[00:27:00] Journaling, drawing, those are great places to begin to understand what's really going on beneath, peeling back some of those layers. Yeah. And.

Sarah: I remember your, your workshops in the Circle Expo with, with drawing people, people love those. I think it's, it's when we tap into, like we said before, into the unconscious or the, the heart or the, you know, the, the right brain that's when kind of these, inhibitors maybe, yeah, fall away and we can just really let the emotions out and that, and yeah, people really enjoyed that, letting out the creativity to think about their money.

Emily: Yeah, drawing is such a great avenue to explore what's really going on behind the scenes, because when we draw, we think in whole [00:28:00] images, and that includes all of the emotional undercurrents of what's going on. So that that's why that that exercise is usually so powerful because it's so simple. I do want to say when you say creativity, it is a creative process, but you don't, you don't have to think of yourself as a creative or artistic person in order to do this.

You know, drawing with stick figures, which is the only thing I'm capable of, is perfectly fine and will, and will get you to that emotional the emotional space that you're looking for as well.

Sarah: Yeah, that's great. So you're coming into the Humane Marketing Circle for a collab workshop that is open to the public and well attended by the community members as well.

Can you give us a little teaser on what we'll do on October

Emily: 2nd? Sure. We're, you, we're going to discover where our money beliefs come from learn how to identify unhelpful money beliefs. [00:29:00] And then learn how to free yourself from unhelpful money beliefs so that you can align your actions with your goals.

So we'll be doing that. I'll do a little presentation, but there also be breakout rooms and exercises that we're going to do to begin to explore our own origins of our money behaviors.

Sarah: Yeah, can't wait. I think the, the, the beauty of these workshops is that they're really hands on. So it's, yes, it's a presentation.

Yes, it's content that you provide, but then like you said, we have the time to go into breakout rooms and talk to other humans and, and really apply directly, because I feel like. When we attend the webinar and we get bombarded by great ideas and inspiration. But then if we don't actually do something with it right away, sometimes it just goes in here and out on the other side.

Right. So I really look forward to to this workshop and. Maybe we'll be doing some drawing and as well, [00:30:00] who knows? But yeah, can't wait. So if you are listening to this and would like to join us, humane. marketing forward slash workshop is the link that you can sign up for. As I said, this is usually reserved to the community.

But these collab workshops are open and you can join with a small donation and Emily will share all her wisdom there. So can't wait, Emily you

Emily: tap into your own wisdom.

Sarah: Yes, that's true. Yes, exactly. Yeah, because maybe that's where we can end. I really feel like. You know, this whole money conversation, even though money is something external that we use with other people, and that kind of brings us or, or ties us into the world outside, it really is this inner job that has to do with it.

Yeah. Solving or, or [00:31:00] healing some stuff inside first, right? Yep. Very well said. Yeah. Great. Well, what a delight. Thank you so much for being here today. Do please share with people where they can find you and I think you have an assessment you want to share as well.

Emily: Yeah. Yeah. Thanks so much for having me, Sarah.

So you can find me on my website, me, myself, and money. com. And there you can find a, I think it's a pop up. So it'll just, it'll gently appear after a few seconds. It's my money assessment. So you can assess your relationship with money. And we're used to seeing this in terms of, you know, do you have investments?

Do you have savings? All these practical categories. But what my assessment does is help you understand more holistically what your relationship is with money based on what your relationship is with yourself.

Sarah: Mm.

Emily: Yeah.

Sarah: That, that's a, definitely a good starter. And then it gives us [00:32:00] a result based on, on the answers we gave on, yeah, I, I'm curious.

I'm going to have to take it. It's like, Oh, you're in love or no, you're, you know, breaking up or it'd be, it'd be good to understand the results after the, the assessment.

Wonderful. Well, thanks so much, Emily, for being here. And yeah. Please do sign up for the workshop, again, humane. marketing. com forward slash workshop. And can't wait to see you on October 2nd. See you then. Thanks, Sarah. Thank [00:33:00] [00:34:00] [00:35:00] [00:36:00] [00:37:00] [00:38:00] [00:39:00] [00:40:00] [00:41:00] [00:42:00] [00:43:00] you.