The Intangible Brand

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In this episode, Jerry and Carl talk with Jill Davis, Chief Strategy Officer at Cline, about what experience really means inside an AEC firm.

Jill’s work sits at the intersection of marketing, strategy, brand, client relationships, and internal culture. She explains why a firm’s brand is not just what it says externally. It is also how people inside the firm work together, communicate, make decisions, and show up for clients.

The conversation explores how Cline has thought about growth, leadership transition, rebranding, and the challenge of making something as abstract as “experience” feel tangible. Jill also shares why relationships and professional networks matter, especially when leaders face decisions they cannot make alone.

In this episode, we cover:

•  Jill’s path from marketing director to Chief Strategy Officer 
•  Why Cline’s brand needed to catch up with who the firm had become 
•  How internal culture affects external client experience 
•  Why architects and designers may need to think more intentionally about the business relationship side of experience 
•  How outside perspective can help a firm better understand itself 
•  Why communication is central to strategy 
•  Jill’s advice to build a strong professional network 

Resource mentioned:

•  SmartLess podcast 

Where to find Jill:

•  Jill Davis on LinkedIn 

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Follow the Hosts: Jerry Gennaria & Carl Winstead

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In this episode of The Intangible Brand, Jerry and Carl sit down with Caitlyn Cook, Marketing and Employee Owner Experience Lead at ESS Companies, to explore how employee ownership reshapes culture, accountability, and brand.

Caitlyn shares how her role bridges marketing and the employee experience, and how ESS has grown rapidly while maintaining a strong sense of ownership across its teams. We talk about what it takes to build connection across regions, why culture cannot be manufactured from the top down, and how employee ownership changes the way people show up to their work.

The conversation also looks at the relationship between employee experience and client experience, why alignment between marketing, HR, and leadership is critical, and how firms can create a culture that actually holds as they scale.

We cover:
 • What changes when employees are also owners
 • Why employee ownership shapes both culture and brand
 • How employee experience influences client experience
 • Why culture is built through connection, not messaging
 • The importance of alignment across marketing, HR, and leadership
 • How to maintain culture while scaling a growing organization

Recommended resource:
 • Radical Candor by Kim Scott

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Follow the Hosts: Jerry Gennaria & Carl Winstead

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Get In Touch: [email protected]

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In this episode of The Intangible Brand, Jerry and Carl sit down with Brittany Hodak to explore what it really takes to turn satisfied customers into enthusiastic advocates. Drawing from a career that spans entertainment, fan engagement, marketing, and consumer behavior, Brittany brings a sharp perspective on why the brands that win are the ones that create experiences people want to talk about. 

Brittany explains that customer experience is no longer judged only against direct competitors. Instead, clients compare every interaction to the best experiences they have anywhere else in their lives. That shift raises the bar for every firm, especially in professional services, where differentiation often comes down to how it feels to work with you. 

The conversation also digs into why leaders often separate acquisition from retention, why that is a mistake, and why every person on a team is part of what Brittany calls the “experience department.” Her core idea is simple and powerful: superfans are the stakeholders so delighted by their experience that they become advocates, refer others, and help create more clients. 

We cover:
 • Why customer experience is the real competitive battlefield
 • How brands move from commodity provider to category of one
 • What leaders misunderstand about acquisition, retention, and advocacy
 • Why every team member contributes to the client experience
 • How exceptional experiences naturally drive referrals
 • What it means to create superfans, not just satisfied customers

Recommended resource:
 • Creating Superfans by Brittany Hodak 

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Follow the Hosts: Jerry Gennaria & Carl Winstead

Learn More about TOKY & Cline

Get In Touch: [email protected]

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In this episode, Sharon Toerek joins The Intangible Brand to explore how intellectual property and brand strategy intersect. As an IP attorney working closely with creative firms, Sharon offers a perspective that reframes brand as a form of intellectual capital — one that is often misunderstood, undervalued, and underprotected.

Key Takeaways

Brand is often treated as secondary to “hard IP,” but Sharon challenges that assumption. Trademarks, identity, and reputation are all forms of intellectual property that can carry significant enterprise value. 

Many firms define intellectual property too narrowly, which limits how they think about protecting and leveraging it. That narrow definition can lead to missed opportunities to create and capture value. 

Sharon describes her work as having a “front row seat to creativity,” highlighting how creative output is not just expressive but economically impactful. 

Brand protection is not just a legal safeguard. It is a strategic lever that allows firms to monetize their ideas, strengthen differentiation, and scale their impact. 

There is often a disconnect between marketing and legal perspectives inside firms. Bridging that gap can help organizations better understand, protect, and grow their intangible assets.

Recommended resource:

• The E-Myth Revisited by Michael Gerber 
• The Innovative Agency Podcast by Sharon Toerek 

About the Guest
Sharon Toerek is an intellectual property and marketing law attorney and the founder of Legal & Creative. She works with agencies and creative professionals to protect, enforce, and monetize their intellectual capital. She also hosts the Innovative Agency podcast and has served in leadership roles including past president of the American Advertising Federation Cleveland. 

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Follow the Hosts: Jerry Gennaria & Carl Winstead

Learn More about TOKY & Cline

Get In Touch: [email protected]

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In this episode of The Intangible Brand, Jerry is joined by Jill Davis, Chief Strategy Officer at Cline, for a conversation with Neen James, leadership strategist and author of Exceptional Experiences, to explore what it really takes to create moments that people remember.

Neen shares how her work with leaders and luxury brands led her to a simple but powerful idea: luxury is not about price or exclusivity, it is about how people feel. We talk about the role of attention and intention in shaping both employee and client experience, and why organizations need to design these moments on purpose rather than leaving them to chance.

The conversation also looks at how research can challenge assumptions about what clients value, why teams need to experience care internally before they can deliver it externally, and how leaders can build practical frameworks that make exceptional experiences repeatable.

We cover:
 • Why luxury is about experience, not price
 • How attention and intention shape meaningful interactions
 • What professional service firms can learn from luxury brands
 • Why employee experience comes before client experience
 • The role of research in understanding what people truly value
 • How to design experiences that are consistent and repeatable

Recommended resource:
 • Exceptional Experiences by Neen James
• Attention Pays by Neen James

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Follow the Hosts: Jerry Gennaria & Carl Winstead

Learn More about TOKY & Cline

Get In Touch: [email protected]

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In this episode of The Intangible Brand, Jerry and Carl sit down with Jennifer Sebranek of GBBN to explore what real differentiation looks like in architecture and professional services and why brand extends far beyond logos, taglines, and marketing campaigns.

Jennifer shares how firms can create alignment around a clear core message, why consistency across teams matters more than clever positioning, and how marketers can show up as the voice of the client inside their organizations. We talk about what clients actually experience when working with a firm, how culture shapes brand in ways leaders often underestimate, and why differentiation is earned through behavior, not declared in copy.

We cover:
 • Why brand goes far beyond tangible assets like logos and websites
 • How to build a clear, consistent core message across a firm
 • What clients actually remember about working with you
 • The role of marketing as the voice of the client internally
 • Why differentiation is operational, not just verbal
 • How culture and collaboration shape brand perception

Recommended resource:
 • Unreasonable Hospitality by Will Guidara

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Follow the Hosts: Jerry Gennaria & Carl Winstead

Learn More about TOKY & Cline

Get In Touch: [email protected]

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In this episode of The Intangible Brand, Jerry and Carl sit down with Pamela Slim to explore what it really takes to scale an expert-led firm without diluting the client experience that made it successful in the first place.

Pamela shares insights from her work advising founders and professional service leaders who want to grow into larger, more complex markets. As firms expand, positioning gets blurrier, operations get strained, and client expectations evolve. The tension is real: growth creates opportunity, but it also exposes gaps in systems, clarity, and leadership alignment.

We talk about what Pamela calls building a “widest net” business, one where the brand promise, delivery systems, and team experience are aligned. The conversation digs into how market perception can drift from reality, why operational discipline is essential for protecting brand equity, and how leaders can design businesses that scale without burning out their people or confusing their clients.

This episode offers practical perspective for professional service leaders who want growth that strengthens their brand rather than undermines it.

We cover:

• What it means to scale without eroding client experience
• Why expert-led firms struggle as they move into larger markets
• The gap between market perception and actual delivery
• How systems and profitability discipline protect brand integrity
• Aligning team experience with client expectations
• What a “widest net” business really looks like in practice

Resources mentioned:

• Exceptional Experiences by Neen James
• Podcast by Nathan Barry (CEO of Kit, formerly ConvertKit)

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Follow the Hosts: Jerry Gennaria & Carl Winstead

Learn More about TOKY & Cline

Get In Touch: [email protected]

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In this episode of The Intangible Brand, Jerry and Carl sit down with George Ghneim, a veterinarian, restaurateur, and distiller, to explore what brand and experience look like in businesses where emotions run high and the work is deeply human.

George shares lessons from veterinary medicine and hospitality, two fields where trust, empathy, and presence are not optional. We talk about how client experience is inseparable from employee experience, especially when teams are navigating stress, grief, or urgency. George also unpacks how he thinks about brand at a small-business level, from naming and visual identity to the signals leaders send through everyday decisions.

The conversation digs into how leaders can stay grounded in tense moments, why listening is often more powerful than reacting, and how support teams quietly shape the outcomes clients remember most. Throughout, George emphasizes care as a leadership discipline, not a soft value, and explains why the best brands are built through consistent human behavior rather than marketing alone.

This episode offers a grounded, practical perspective for leaders in professional services who want to build brands rooted in trust, empathy, and real-world service.

We cover:

• What veterinary medicine and hospitality teach us about experience
• Why employee experience and client experience cannot be separated
• Staying calm and empathetic in emotionally charged situations
• How listening builds trust more effectively than quick fixes
• Building brand through everyday leadership decisions
• The role of support teams in shaping client outcomes

Resources mentioned:

• Peace Is Every Step by Thich Nhat Hanh

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Follow the Hosts: Jerry Gennaria & Carl Winstead

Learn More about TOKY & Cline

Get In Touch: [email protected]

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In this episode of The Intangible Brand, Jerry and Carl sit down with Benjamin Sachwald, Senior Vice President of Acoustics, Noise, and Vibration at AKRF, to explore a dimension of employee experience that is often overlooked but deeply felt: sound.

Benjamin helps unpack why acoustics is becoming a more visible and strategic part of workplace design, especially as organizations rethink offices, hybrid work, and what it means to create spaces people actually want to use. We talk about how “office vibe” is shaped not just by what we see, but by what we hear, and why sound plays a major role in focus, collaboration, and overall well-being.

The conversation also looks at why acoustics can feel like a black box for many teams, how late-stage fixes often fail, and what it takes to make sound an intentional part of the design process. Benjamin shares how tools like Pindrop help teams hear design intent earlier, and why creating the right mix of spaces for calls, focus, and collaboration is really about cultural clarity.

This episode offers a practical lens for leaders, designers, and firm owners who want to think more holistically about how the built environment supports both employee experience and client perception.

We cover:

• Why acoustics is gaining importance in people-centric workplace design
• How sound shapes “office vibe” and cultural perception
• The challenges of open offices, hybrid work, and acoustic privacy
• Designing spaces that support focus, calls, and collaboration
• Making acoustics an intentional part of the design process
• How tools like Pindrop help teams understand sound earlier

Resources mentioned:

• 20,000 Hertz podcast, with a recommendation to start with the THX Deep Note episode
• AKRF and Benjamin Sachwald on LinkedIn

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Follow the Hosts: Jerry Gennaria & Carl Winstead

Learn More about TOKY & Cline

Get In Touch: [email protected]

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In this episode of The Intangible Brand, Jerry and Carl talk with Dr. Will Percy, Executive Vice President at TeamOptix and author of Slaying Zombies: Reimagining Workplace Engagement, about why so many engagement efforts feel busy but ineffective.

Will introduces the idea of “engagement zombies” the outdated beliefs, metrics, and programs that continue to walk around organizations long after they have stopped helping anyone. We explore why happiness and engagement are not the same thing, how toxicity often hides inside “high-performing” cultures, and why leadership behavior, not perks or surveys, ultimately shapes the employee experience.

The conversation digs into how chaos, unclear expectations, and tolerance of the wrong behaviors quietly drain teams, especially in creative and professional service environments. Will also shares how data can be used as a coaching tool rather than a weapon, and what collective leadership actually looks like when it is done well.

This episode is a practical look at how leaders can move beyond surface-level engagement efforts and create environments where people can do their best work without burning out or checking out.

We cover:

• Why happiness is not the same as engagement
• What workplace toxicity looks like beyond extreme examples
• How chaos and lack of clarity become cultural toxins
• Why promotions and tolerance reveal true leadership values
• Using data to support growth instead of surveillance
• What collective leadership looks like in practice

Resources mentioned:

• The Chimp Paradox by Steve Peters
• Zombie Economics: The Dead Ideas Still Walk Among Us by John Quiggin
• Slaying Zombies: Reimagining Workplace Engagement

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Follow the Hosts: Jerry Gennaria & Carl Winstead

Learn More about TOKY & Cline

Get In Touch: [email protected]