Australian best seller Karen Brooks’ latest book The Chocolate Maker’s Wife is a historical thriller set in the time of King Charles II when chocolate was regarded as “sin in a bowl” and the commercial houses that served it were hotbeds of revolution. Damnation never tasted so sweet.

Hi there, I’m you host Jenny Wheeler and today Karen talks about the lush, fascinating world of Restoration London and of a beautiful woman drawn into a world of riches, power, intrigue – and chocolate.

And we’ve a paperback copy of Karen’s captivating story of power , intrigue and greed for listener’s to win in The Chocolate Maker’s Wife Giveaway. You can enter the draw here or find it on Facebook. Entries close June 30.

Six things you’ll learn from this Joys of Binge Reading episode:

Where to find Karen Brooks:

Website: https://karenrbrooks.com/

Facebook: @KarenBrooksAuthor

 Twitter: @KarenBrooksAU

What

Jenny: [00:00:01] But now here’s Karen. Hello there Karen

Karen: [00:00:08] Oh hi Jenny. Thank you so much for

Jenny: [00:00:12] And I just wanted to start by saying very reverently; Dr. Brooks. Because indeed you have Ph.D in Humanities and you are recognized in your home country of Australia as a weekly columnist and an expert on all sorts of controversial popular topics..

But you’ve also a wife and mother so you’ve got a very busy life apart from your writing. You’ve published twelve books beginning with fantasy and moving into  historical fiction. The $64 million question is: Beginning at the beginning was there a Once Upon A Time moment when you thought I’ve really got to write fiction or I will have just not done when I’m meant to do somehow.

Karen: [00:01:04] I wish I had a story like that to tell.

I always write. I mean I think lots of kids do and as a teenager I kept diaries. All right, terrible lovelorn poems and messages of adulation to people I admired – political figures or actors and people like that.  I think it was my girlfriend becoming quite successful in her field as an author. That was Sara Douglass, the fantasy writer. It was a really aspirational moment for me and she really encouraged me.  

I’d written a couple of plays and one of them was performed in Sydney a few years earlier. And so again dabbling, dabbling, dabbling. But I kept saying ‘I really should write a book one day’ or ‘I think I’ll write a book’ and basically I think Sara got absolutely sick of me going on about it and said “Oh for God’s sakes just stop saying you’re gonna do it and just do it.”

[00:02:05] She had a few

Jenny: [00:02:16] Yes! 

Karen: [00:02:21] It was torturous! No, no, it actually

Jenny: [00:02:29] The most recent one just out is The Chocolatemaker’s Wife and it’s a historical thriller set in the Restoration period. It’s got the backdrop of Charles II  on the throne, and the Great Plague and the Great Fire of London. It’s your third historical. And I just wondered what attracted you to that genre after having spent quite a lot of time in fantasy.

Karen: [00:02:55] Yeah I think that’s a great question. I think like a lot of fantasy writers I drew on history anyway to construct my fantasy. So although they were more or less historical fantasy, I had real figures in them. I had actual moments in history, but of course I played with that and I speculate about ‘what if’s.’

[00:03:11] So for example  my last fantasy trilogy was set in an equivalent to Renaissance Venice and Elizabethan England – that was barely recognizable as Elizabethan England. The Venice was very recognizable and it was really my agent who helped me see it. Selwa Anthony is saying to me ‘Oh Karen I think that your real strength is history. you love it so much’.

She was too polite to say ‘you bang on about it’ but I did and she said ‘Why don’t you just focus on the history?’ So I took her advice and I’m really really glad I did, it was something profound. I’m really comfortable doing that, I really love it.

[00:03:49] So was an easy

Jenny: [00:03:59] It’s probably just very serendipitous that historical fiction seems to be enjoying a real resurgence at the moment as well. So it is quite a hot niche to be in.

Karen: Yes it is. I mean again it’s a genre I always loved and really appreciated too and I think that when you find a writer that really respects history as well, then creates this wonderful story set within it, you can learn so much from it. And you know, the greatest predictor of the present and indeed the future is the past. We learn about ourselves, and I guess about our own humanity, by reading history. It just helps you make sense of events around you. I find that anyway.

Jenny: [00:04:42] Yes. As we might expect from the title

Karen: [00:05:05] Yes sure. It was a drink for a start,

[00:05:42] It was called ‘sin in a bowel’ because they didn’t drink out of cups they drank in bowels and they put various additives in. Everything that we are accustomed to, like milk and sugar, to eggs and almond meal which again is not too strange. read chilli, flowers and ambergris, which is I think a while a product of whales. Anyway they added all sorts of really strange things and it was said to be quite the aphrodisiac.

So men in particular liked to bring it home for their women to drink and they used to bring it home in the form of a chocolate cake. And by that I mean a very solid mass of the cocoa butter really, the beans all crushed and  the hull, the shell taken out. Winnowed out, and then made into the paste which they would break up into little bits and mix with boiling water. So that was how it was consumed. And they set up houses for people which were like taverns or a more sophisticated version of a tavern.

[00:06:43] And people for four pennies could go in and drink chocolate. So it broke down social barriers to because providing you had the money anyone of any class could go in and drink and converse with the other men. It was only men allowed into these places, although women did serve. And eventually women were admitted.

But yeah in the beginning it was very much a man’s environment. And they used to discuss politics, they’d gamble, they’d conduct auctions, and discuss the latest   big discoveries. It was really fascinating places where plots and plans were fermented.

Jenny: [00:07:15] So yeah sounds fascinating. In fact the

Karen: ] Oh that’s nice to hear because that was trying to evoke. I think they would have been quite thrilling places and because chocolate also coincided with the birth of journalism as we know it. Meaning that they were paid what they’re called correspondents who would go out and seek news and report it back to their the equivalent of an editor who would print it. The press was very tightly controlled at that time. There are only twenty legal printing presses allowed in London for example and the king and the government were very much control what went on.

[00:08:06] So of course that meant there were underground presses as well where again things were published that the powers that be didn’t want out there and didn’t want people discussing. So literacy was on the rise as well and people were really becoming aware of their rights.

They were also equivalent to chocolate houses for coffee houses so coffee again was another drink that where in the past people always drank beer and ale and cider and wine and mead. Now they were drinking two popular drinks coffee particularly but also chocolate that kept them sober. So they were remembering what they were discussing and really having these deep meaningful conversations and instigating change which of course change is always a danger to the government in power.

Jenny: [00:08:51] Yeah. Yeah. You’ve got a huge list of characters true and fiction listed at the back including Samuel Pepys the very famous diarist. It’s clear you’ve done a huge amount of research. I just wondered how do you tackle setting at one of these books.

Karen: [00:09:15] Yes, another great question. Very

[00:09:44] So I read a

[00:10:18] What led up to

Jenny: [00:10:40] So do you research solidly before you

Karen: [00:10:52] Yeah well before I start research I always have the beginning of the book and I pretty much know how it’s going to end. What happens between is anyone’s guess so I have that vague idea and probably the main characters. That’s all.

So then I start my research and I’ll probably research really solidly for anywhere up to a year just reading and note taking and poring over maps. I’ve been fortunate enough to go to England a few times and walk the streets and take photographs and things like that. So being in situ is really a privilege and really wonderful.

[00:11:23] And then I start the writing and of course as you write you continue to research because I’m a stickler for detail. Like the fabrics that they used. Studying the condition of the roads, the proper names and things where I can get them. And of course what really helped me with this particular book were the diaries of Samuel Pepys which – they were just amazing. What an interesting little fellow he was. I don’t mean to sound condescending because he was quite a marvelous, smart man a naughty man, a bit scandalous.

He was indicative of the rising middle class at the time and how education could really change a person’s fortunes. And he kept diaries for 10 years pretty solidly and from them I was able to gain practically everything. We learn about his bowel movements, his sexual fantasies. He coded them in French actually.

He coded his diaries and fortunately we have good people that have translated it all this for us. And you’d also get the weather and what plays were being performed at the two major theatres and the people he’d encounter and what he really thought of them, so all those things are gems for a writer.  I felt like I got to know him, like I sort of he was a friend who I didn’t always like the way they behaved. But he confided in me, he trusted me, because this is how I felt. So I had to include him in the book.

Jenny: [00:12:44] You don’t just stick to one period

[00:13:08] You’re very kind, Jenny! Other people would call me a fool! I just didn’t want to do this to myself, But you get the story and once the story takes hold of you, you can’t let it go. It’s like a package deal. It comes with the period and so yeah I have to got to learn a whole period. But that’s the beauty, as well. I’m learning so much as I go and that that’s been fabulous.

I made a promise to myself because my next book is actually set in Scotland in the 1700s and it’s actually based on a true story.

It’s a terrible true story and I discovered it well I knew a little bit about it and I went to Scotland with the intention to research a slightly different story and found this one. And once it got its hooks in me and ‘Hooks’ is probably really appropriate because it’s to do with fish wives and witchcraft. I couldn’t let it go. The story of these women and what happened to them needed to be told, so yes. So I had to learn not just a whole new period but a whole new culture because Scottish culture was – is – really really different.

And now I’m back in Medieval times. I’m researching back in Medieval times. OK right. You know I’ve already done that. I should be really comfortable but I think I’ve leapt ahead so often over the years I’m going to be like Doctor Who. I’ve forgotten a lot. And also I’m setting it slightly earlier than my previous one so new kings. Different governments, different things going on. So yet again I’m on this huge and wonderful learning curve.

Jenny: [00:14:39] Now The Brewers Tale had extra

Karen: [00:15:02] Oh look. Thank you Jenny. Yeah I’m fine

[00:15:25] And I also had been diagnosed with cancer, but I was going to be all right, but I was on extended sick leave. And when I could travel I came down to see her and I was so distressed at how isolated and alone she was. And when I came back home I’m all sitting up in Byron Bay at the time. I was incredibly distressed and the house we’d been about to offer on in Brisbane had actually gone under in the floods and it was like the universe was telling us it’s not time to go in that direction.

And my beautiful husband said look I have this idea. Why don’t we put our stuff in storage and go to Tasmania for a year and look after Sara because he loved her too. And we did. And nine months after we arrived or nine and a half months, Sara died. And you know it’s funny, Jenny because intellectually you know it’s going to happen, but you somehow think because you’re there, you’re going to make things different and change it.

[00:16:19] And we were devastated when she died, and I think we existed in a bit of a fug for quite a few months after. But we had made the decision before she died that we’d stay, because we fell in love with this place. It’s a beautiful place, beautiful people. And yes. So we’re still here eight years later and that was when I was finishing the last my fantasy trilogy. and really struggled that night.

I still have ill health because of the cancer. That’s the thing when you have cancer. It’s it’s such a invidious horrible illness and people don’t realise that just because it’s cut out of you it doesn’t mean it’s all over. And yes sometimes sometimes things continue. So I’m about to head up to Sydney for another operation to do with it. Actually the week after next but I’m one of the lucky ones.

[00:17:09] I’m still here

Jenny: [00:17:23] It sounds like a remarkable story. The

Karen: [00:17:43] Yes we are and that’s right. Sorry I

[00:18:18] And I remember saying to her ‘Do women play a big role in whisky making?’ and she wasn’t 100 percent sure but I said ‘they did in brewing, didn’t they?’ I don’t know how I knew that, you know you pluck stuff out of your head from somewhere and you don’t know how you knew it. ‘Yes,’ she said ‘actually yes they did. Women were huge with brewing.’ And after that, I didn’t hear another thing she said. So I always put it down to Sara, because we were there because of Sara, and because I used to go there to buy Sara a particular whisky for her to take with her medication. That’s another story. And that’s why I went to Lark Bar.

[00:18:50] So this whole story came into my head and Stephen was my research assistant on it and introduced me to all these wonderful brewers and he was looking for a business himself. He’d been in psychiatry for twenty five year, and he was a little bit burnt out and he was looking for a business. He really wanted to go into hospitality because he loves people.

But every time he mentioned an aspect of the business he’s faced would fall. But he said ‘I could brew I home brew I’ve always brewed’ and I said to him one day ‘Why are you even bothering with the other aspect? Why don’t you just be a brewer? And he looked at me and he said ‘Would you be okay with that?’ I said ‘Hell yes, go for it.’ So yes. Five and a half years later he’s doing really well. We have Captain Bligh’s ale and cider and now a distillery. Our son has joined us in Hobart and he’s our distiller. So we we now make whiskey gin and rum as well as beer.

Jenny: [00:19:43] Yeah it does feel like it was all meant

Karen: [00:19:46] Yeah well we’re all set because of the

Jenny: [00:19:51] Turning to your wider career we’ve

[00:20:27] Yes. Look. And

[00:20:44] But yes I have

[00:21:19] I have blocked the more angry. I reported a couple of people. Yes, I think it’s particularly being a woman and daring to have an opinion and a public voice. Or you’re given a platform for your opinion, I should say. Everybody has an opinion. And that’s a privilege. And I like to think it’s a privilege that I really respect and try and make sure my opinion is always informed. I do my research. But there’s a lot of people don’t like that.

And I guess on the one hand we live in a world where people can express that displeasure and providing it’s done respectably respectfully and civilly. I’m all for it but unfortunately there are those that don’t know how to do that or just don’t think you deserve it. And they become incredibly abusive and threatening and yes it’s not easy.

Jenny: Do you think that Australia is particularly hard on women in public life. I am thinking about your former Prime Minister Julia Gillard who I personally thought got a pretty rough deal.

Karen: Yes I do. I think you’re absolute right Jenny. She did get a rough deal and I don’t understand why there are those people still in denial about that when the evidence was – is –  everywhere – everywhere. I really admire any woman who enters public life and puts herself right out there. I’ve withdrawn a lot from television commentary and even radio commentary because of threats I’ve received and also the comments on your appearance. I get really tired of that too.

[00:22:45] I think a comment on my work, don’t comment on the way I look. However, women get that. We don’t ask for that, we don’t invite that. And yet there’s like a standard that we have to meet, whether you’re below it or exceed it, then you are judged.

But I also have learned I’d rather people underestimate me than overestimate me because at least then I don’t have anything to live up to. And then they can sort of reassess me when they get to know me. I don’t know. It’s such a strange thing Jenny,For all that I appreciate what the internet has done for us in terms of improving gender equality and gender respect.

I think the younger generation coming up – I’m so proud of them and I’m so proud of what many of them are doing and I think they’re going to get it right. But I think for my generation and the one above me I think you know we could learn from them and I think it’s really sad that instead of respecting and appreciating equality and what somebody else might offer you feel threatened and challenged and you lash out.

Jenny: [00:23:52] Yes. You’ve done a tremendous amount

[00:24:23] Oh gosh. Yes

[00:24:52] And the second

Jenny: [00:25:15] It’s interesting that you say it’s

[00:25:21] Because you

[00:25:38] And if you

Jenny: [00:26:10] I guess that in a newspaper you do have

Karen: [00:26:16] Yeah absolutely. And there’s the thing

Jenny: [00:26:38] Yeah but interestingly somebody was just commenting to me the other day that 20 years ago we had those books like the James Michener books where they included a huge amount of extraneous information which I used to love  – botany geology etc. and then that went out of fashion and those sorts of books they felt as if it was it was loaded with too much information.

But somebody was mentioning to me the other day that a lot of the best-selling historical authors are going back to providing a lot of rich detail and I think your books have got a lot of rich detail without being overloaded with it. Would you agree with that? And do you find it hard to  keep that right balance?

Karen: [00:27:19] Oh yeah. Gosh you ask good questions. Yeah. It’s like the slow movement with cooking and that isn’t it? It’s almost like that, yes. People are returning to wanting that. You’re right. You know I love history fiction that gives me information as it slowly unfolds. Again the author has to grab me with a story within a couple of pages, but I don’t read historical fiction because I don’t want information. I actually do want to learn about the period. So yes, I think you’re right. I think there is a change afoot. Look at Ken Follett’s books. They’re enormous and laden with information.

And consider CJ Sansom. He’s one of my favorite historical fiction writers And I love Philippa Gregory’s works too and Geraldine Brooks. Unfortunately she’s no relation, but she writes beautiful historical fiction that’s laden with information but never ever does it detract from the story. Yes. I think you’re absolutely right. I think there is a swing back towards that and I think if you don’t like it you wouldn’t choose the genre would you?

Jenny: [00:28:15] Perhaps historical readers are looking

Karen: [00:28:20] Yes I think so. And you know I think

Jenny: [00:28:38] If there was one thing in your writing

Karen: [00:28:48] Oh all right. Can I say two things

[00:29:15] Writing a

Jenny: With your editing do you do more than one draft.

Yes! Laughing  – Oh my goodness. I do. Oh gosh you know every morning when I’m in the writing process I read over what I’ve written the day before, depending of course on how long the book is getting. But definitely  I read the chapter that I wrote the day before. And that gets me back into the flow and then I go on. I don’t get writer’s block.

I realize writer’s block just means I’m going in the wrong direction. And I just need to delete what I’ve just written and start that part again. Or I get up and go for a walk I just need a break from my desk and then I come back and I’m fresh and it’s fine 

Jenny:  You can’t have writer’s block when you’re a journalist.

Karen: No. And in fact if you do because you’re writing something 800 words each week that I have to produce my column. Yeah I just ditch it and start again. And that’s not a problem so I’m not afraid of deleting I think lots of people think their words are so precious and they are to you. And that’s what editing teaches you have the courage to delete. Having said that I have a delete file. So a lot of my stuff goes into a file just because I need to put back out. If I discover I actually did need that bit.

Well I cut 30000 words out of The Chocolatemaker’s Wife, for example so that had a really big edit, and that was before my editors got to it.

I do loads of drafts. I probably do close to 10 drafts.

Jenny: [00:31:56] Yeah. Turning to Karen as reader. This

Karen: [00:32:13] Oh yes I’ve binge read all the time. I love love love Crime. Crime is my ‘go to’fiction and I love historical fiction and I love fantasy. They’re probably my favorites. And so like I binge read all Elizabeth George’s books.

[00:32:36] We have such great authors in Australia too. And if I find a good author I’ll go and read all their books that actually Elly Griffiths.

[00:32:42] I’ve just binge read all hers and I’m now waiting for the next book to come out. She’s a lovely English mystery writer. There’s Kate Forsyth another Australian, check I adore her books. She’s got a new one coming out called The Blue Rose which I can’t wait for.

[00:32:56] Kim Wilkins another great Australian fantasy writer and then a colleague of mine Trent Dalton just wrote the most beautiful book Boy Swallows Universe and I can’t wait for his next one because that was just glorious. You know I just I’ve binge read all the time

Jenny: I haven’t heard of Trent Dalton I ‘ll look out for him.

Karen: Boy Swallows Universe. It’s won every award and then some over here. I think it’s sold into 34 countries. It’s amazing. I’ve not read anything quite like it. I couldn’t put it down and I’ve bought it and recommended it and given it to so many people and they’ve all loved it.

Jenny: [00:33:40] We’re coming to  the close of our time together. So just

Karen: [00:33:56] Oh wow. I don’t think I can give any

Jenny: [00:34:43] You’ve really had at least two careers,

Karen: [00:34:59] Yeah I have, and a lot of my careers

Jenny: [00:35:23] So tell us about your next project.

Karen: [00:35:31] Do you know what, Jenny? It’s the only book that hasn’t got a title. I gave it one. I’ll tell you. I called the Sea Witch of Caledonia but my publishers quite rightly said it sounds too like fantasy and I think because my back list is fantasy they were worried it would confuse readers. So at the moment it’s untitled. It’s set in 1704 – 1706 in Scotland in a little village called Pittenweem on the East Coast. So where we’ve got a couple of titles up sleeve but I don’t know that we’ve settled on one yet.

[00:36:02] So that’s

Jenny: [00:36:45] And so the Scottish one will be out

Karen: [00:36:55] It’s like more of a prequel of The

Jenny: [00:37:21] Do you like interacting with your

Karen: [00:37:27] Oh I love interacting with the readers because I’m unlike a column readers. They are really lovely. No, that’s not fair. I have a lovely column readers too. And in fact that’s what I should say. I have people write to me thanking me and saying really lovely things too. Unfortunately you tend to remember the more negative things but the readers of my books – people don’t tend to write to you and say I hated your book which is really nice.

They tend to want to interact with you and ask you questions and they can get me through my website through Facebook. I’m on Twitter. And somebody put me on Instagram. I think my daughter, which I’m still learning to use but I am a presence online and I welcome them talking to me. I love it.

Jenny: [00:38:04] I’d imagine that your books also would

Karen: [00:38:12] No but I would. It’s a good idea. I

Jenny: [00:38:19] I should gather a group of girl friends

Karen: [00:38:37] Oh look. Thank you so so much Jenny. It’s been an absolute pleasure too. Can I just tell you what we were going to start a movement. My husband and I down here , we wanted to cede Tasmania to become the westernmost state of New Zealand. if you’ll have us. Or maybe just us . . . Thank you so much, Jenny it’s been great.

Jenny: [00:39:15] Wonderful. Thanks so much.

If you enjoyed Karen’s book The Chocolate Maker’s Wife you might also enjoy Bart Casey’s dual time line story of Elizabethan intrigue – The Vavasour Macbeth.

Thanks To Our Technical Support:

The Joys of Binge Reading podcast is put together with wonderful technical

Our voice overs are done by Abe Raffills, and Abe’s another gem. He got 20

Deanna Raybourn’s motto in life and writing is “expect the unexpected” – and her best-selling historical mysteries are the perfect expression of that – they are plotted with the intricacy of a symphony.

HI there I’m your host Jenny Wheeler, and today Deanna talks about writing for a very long time before she got published – and what she learned from that experience – and why we’ve totally misjudged Victorian women.

Six things you’ll learn from this Joys of Binge Reading episode:

Where to find Deanna Raybourn:

Website: https://www.deannaraybourn.com/

 Twitter:@deannaraybourn

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/deannaraybourn

What

Jenny: But now, here’s Deanna. .  Hello there Deanna and welcome to the show, it’s great to have you with us.

Deanna: [00:00:07] Hi Jenny. Thank you so much for having

Jenny: [00:00:14] I know it’s fun isn’t it? Readers are always curious to know how authors got started writing fiction and I know you had quite a strong background in English literature before you started writing yourself. But was there a Once Upon A Time moment when you felt I must write fiction myself. And if so was there a catalyst for it?

Deanna: [00:00:40] No there absolutely wasn’t. Because I honestly do not remember a time when I wasn’t making up stories. I do distinctly remember being about three or four years old, – I’d learned to read pretty early – I was about four when I learned how to read – and I was so excited because I could finally make sense of all the signs that were on the streets and I could finally read my books by myself.

[00:01:05] Then I got really excited when I learned how to print because then I could start making up stories of my own. And I’ve been doing that ever since. I don’t have any juvenilea. Like there’s never gonna be a Jane Austen moment where I can publish things that I wrote when I was twelve years old. But I was always making things up. And so when I went to university I decided to double major in English and history because I knew I wanted to write historical fiction and that seemed like the most logical thing to do. It never occurred to me to major in Creative Writing but I went for English and and history and it’s served me pretty well.

Jenny: [00:01:46] It’s amazing that so young you actually

Deanna: [00:01:53] Well you know I think it was it was

Jenny: [00:02:37] Yeah. That is impressive – 120,00 words

Deanna: [00:02:42] Oh it’s insane. It’s insane.

Jenny: [00:02:47] And you’ve done your historical mysteries, though with a little bit of a twist, because right from the beginning you included a romantic subplot and the meshing of two separate genres. And I just wondered. I know that there are a few people doing that these days but when you started perhaps more than a decade ago with your Julia Grey series was there any resistance from publishers who wanted you to do either one thing or the other?

Deanna: [00:03:16] No it wasn’t resistance as much as it was kind of scratching their heads and puzzlement not knowing where to place you. Because the way traditional publishing works as I’m sure you know it’s all about where they can slot you because the publisher has to know how to pitch you to the buyer for the stores. The stores have to know where to slot you on the shelf. The librarians need to know where to shelve you. Readers want to know where to find you. And so it all starts with what genre are you? Who are you? Where do we put you?

[00:03:48] And with a cross genre book it’s just it’s not that easy to figure out where a writer should be placed. If you ask me I’m a mystery writer. That’s what I’ve always been and I’ve been very  lucky to have a lot of readers who crossover from romance to read my books. I appreciate that hugely, because the convention of romance novels is that you get a happily ever after or a happily for now.

[00:04:16] There is a

[00:04:34]  You can lift the relationship out of my books and you’ll still have a mystery. If you lift the mystery out you don’t have a satisfying romance. And so that’s why I’m always deeply grateful to romance readers who come along for the rid,e because it’s  a little bit out of what they prefer for their reading. So it’s a kindness on their part to read my stuff.

Jenny: [00:05:01]  Your two male protagonists Nicholas Brisbane and Stoker in the two different series – there’s the Veronica Speedwell series as well which we’ll get on to soon – but they both such fascinating men and you managed to string out the the whys and wherefores of why they can’t instantly get together.

[00:05:22] There’s all

Deanna: [00:05:42] Yeah it’s just a very slow burn. It’s the slowest of burns. I do try to throw a few breadcrumbs out there in each book for readers who are attentive to that sort of thing that they’ll get a little – you know a tasty morsel in every book or so where they can see that Yeah we are inching towards something. And you know every book will give you just that fraction more depth to the relationship and that  tiny bit more intimacy and you know, maybe a kiss.

Jenny: [00:06:20] And is that even harder to do successfully than the very complicated plotting that’s involved with the mystery?

Deanna: [00:06:31] No I don’t think so.  That part of it really comes naturally. That’s a gut thing. I just go with what feels right. It’s natural for the characters in the way I’ve set them up. How far and how fast they should progress towards kind of conceiving any sort of feelings for each other and then expressing any sort of feelings for each other – that’s a completely different scenario.  That part of it is just a lot of fun, it’s enjoyable to play with. So when the plot is maybe giving me 40 new grey hairs, the the emotional aspect of it is just joy.

Jenny: [00:07:14] We mentioned the complicated plotting. I guess you probably do have to start out with a reasonably detailed outline do you?

Deanna: [00:07:26] I do and I kind of hate that. That’s the part where I swear to you every time I have to write a synopsis I end up Googling ‘How do you write a synopsis?’ Because it’s one of those things that I have developed a mental block about. I dislike writing them so intensely. The only thing worse is writing my own biography, when I have to do those. But the synopsis is one of those things that just kind of turns you inside out because you’re figuring out how you’re going to set it up and how you’re gonna end it. And those are things that I know but I don’t always know what’s in the middle. I mean I know ‘A’ and I know ‘Zee”. I may know ‘G’ and ‘Q’.

[00:08:06] But it’s all

[00:08:47] And I realized how far I had deviated from the synopsis I’d given them, and I had to change it completely…. I think I’ve got to keep two paragraphs out of seven pages and had to completely rewrite the rest of it so that it would be congruent with the book that I actually turned in. So luckily for me my editors are very patient and very understanding.

Jenny: [00:09:09] The Lady Julia Grey series – it now five books  and four novellas..   Are there any more coming or is it now finished?

Deanna: [00:09:19] That is one of those questions to which

[00:09:49] It would be a matter of finding a new publisher. And that’s one of those things that other publishers are not terribly keen on. Picking up a series that someone else still holds the rights to the first five books. So it would be honestly it’s gonna come out if if something happens really well with the development of a Julia movie or a Julia TV series that would be when there would be a serious market for that and that would be certainly when  that could be a possibility.

[00:10:22] In the

Jenny: [00:10:31] So you started with an idea for a five

Deanna: [00:10:39] No no no it started off open ended. The series started off completely open ended and we were doing it two books at a time and then we just kind of got to a point where my previous publisher always liked for me to take a break between series. So every third book day they would want me to do something different.

[00:11:08] And then another three books and do something different. And so we were trying that and I wanted to do another Julia at that point to come in with Book Six and they were pretty firm on on wanting to do something else. And then by the time we got sorted out what that something would be, they kind of felt like it had lost momentum and it was time to move on.

[00:11:33] And that was not a call I was particularly thrilled with because we left the series with the book that hit the New York Times Bestseller list. So to me that felt like not a great time to leave. So I would have liked to have stayed with it at least for one or two more books to really completely wrap up the series.

[00:11:54] If I knew that

Jenny: [00:12:34] Lady Julia we should say was enjoyed a

Deanna: [00:13:02] Now that one I can tell you. No,

Jenny: [00:13:25]  Veronica is also set in the 1880s . Is there

Deanna: [00:13:39] People always want to know about that

[00:14:14] Society went from candle power and horsepower to – by the end of her reign – electricity and cars and in between that there was gas light and steam power. And when you think about a 70 to 80 year span of time, going through that kind of upheaval and everything that technology brought with it, and all the changes. People were really I think towards the end of her reign – by the time you get into the 1880’s and 1890’s I think people were almost suffering from a sort of whiplash. They were trying to figure out what their place was. There had been a huge amount of political upheaval as well, not just technology.

[00:14:59] You know the middle of the century saw so many different revolutions and wars. Things were shaking out a little bit by the 1880’s but the really funny thing is when you start to dive into it you can already see the roots of World War 1 in the 1880’s, and you know what’s coming. So you you see these people who are at this crossroads of trying to do the best that they can to fit technology into a new world that they don’t have a grasp on yet,  they haven’t come to terms with yet.

And then you realize just you know 30 years down the road it’s all going to blow up and everything is going to change again. And it’s really fascinating to see because there’s also so many little seeds in there of things that we tend to think of as being 20th century as opposed to 19th century.

[00:15:55] Department

[00:16:25] And yet there were Victorians doing those things. And so that to me makes them really interesting. There’s kind of a comfortable exoticism to Victorians. They’re just enough like us that you can understand them, but they’re different enough to make them interesting.

Jenny: [00:16:41] Yes, it’s very interesting because I’ve noticed with historical fiction generally there’s such a strong sense that women writers of the 21st century are rediscovering how independent women of the 19th and early 20th century actually were. And that they weren’t that different from us. The laws are very different but their aspirations would not be very different at all would they?

Deanna: [00:17:05] Oh no no no not at all.  It’s amazing when you look at what women were writing to each other and what they were doing. You know  so much of the official history is  written by and about men, specifically  about white men. And by and about white straight men. When you try to look at what women were doing, or people of color. or people who had a different sexuality. And if they were any sort of combination of those in particular, the stories are there but you have to dig harder. You have to look further for them. And that’s what we’re starting to do and I find that so fascinating. I mean I’m a huge Twitter fiend. I absolutely adore Twitter.

[00:17:50] And part of

[00:18:15] We didn’t talk

Jenny: [00:18:46] Yes. And a lot of your heroines are doing very interesting things. One of them is that a famous aviatrix and another one is a butterfly catcher. So you have a chance to do quite a deep dive into quite a few different areas yourself don’t you, when you’re researching them.

Deanna: [00:19:04] Oh I do. And you know part of that kind of reclaiming of women’s history is how Veronica’s Speedwell came to be in the first place. Because when I started really getting interested in the Victorians, right after I graduated from college, I was curious as to what the women were doing.  I figured not all of them were sitting in the parlor pouring tea for the vicar.

You know, they had to be doing something more interesting. And so I started reading, and I got very  intrigued by the Victorian lady explorers. You know this kind of subset of women who packed up the petticoats and the parasols and set out to see the world, and a lot of times they were travelling to places where European women had never been before.

[00:19:48] And sometimes

[00:20:09] You know when

[00:20:32] And one in particular was a lepidopterist,  A butterfly hunter by the name of Margaret Fountaine and the cool thing about butterfly hunting for Victorian women is it was considered a genteel occupation.  You could do it and almost be a lady even though, you were making money at it. And so Margaret was able to make a living hunting butterflies and she hunted all around the world.

She went to six continents hunting butterflies and she was able to amass a gorgeous collection of them. And she kept journals of all of her travels. And after she did this for about 50 years she dropped dead on the island of Santo Domingo with her butterfly net in her hand aged 78. She willed her diaries and her butterflies to a university in England, with instructions they were not to be opened until 1978. After 70 years they cracked her journals open and found out that Margaret had not just been hunting butterflies. Margaret had lovers all over the world.

[00:21:34] And she wrote about it. She had boyfriends everywhere. She had relationships that were interracial stuff, that you just don’t think of Victorian women is doing.

[00:21:49] Margaret was doing it. Margaret was writing about it. And I was so intrigued by this that I knew if I was ever going to do a second Victorian series that I was absolutely going to kind of pay homage to Margaret and make my Victorian heroine a lepidopterist. So that that’s how Veronica Speedwell came to be a butterfly hunter. It is as a love note to Margaret Fountaine and as a thank you for all the the hours of enjoyment I got from reading about her adventures.

Jenny: [00:22:22] Perhaps that explains a little bit more

Deanna: [00:22:30] Yeah I mean she is a very much her own woman and you know by the 1880s laws were starting to be enacted where women could hold onto property in a way that they could not in earlier decades of the 19th century. And so it’s a little bit easier to be an independent woman at that time. You’re just seeing the start of women really taking taking off on their own, opening businesses and  things in a way. Because in the times before that  there was this overly domesticated ideal. That was the  ideal of what the perfect woman should be.

[00:23:19] And people started to break out of that towards the end of the 19th century. The whole Victoria and Albert example of this perfect domesticity and the idea that this is how everybody should live. I think that the  shine started to come off of that a little bit and it got a little bit dull and you start to see people chafing against these restrictions and these examples that had been held up to them. 

I think kind of impossible ideals in some cases because how –  if you have servants in your house who are doing all the work  – and you’ve got nannies who are raising your kids and you’re not really supposed to apply yourself to passionately to learning because it can cause brain fever.

[00:24:09] I mean what are you really supposed to do with your time if you’re an intelligent woman without going completely stark raving mad? So it’s interesting to see when women started to push beyond those boundaries and that’s absolutely what I needed for Veronica, is for her to be the kind of woman who would say “yeah I’m really not going to sit around and knit all day.”

Jenny: [00:24:32]  It’s tantalising to look at the work you’re doing with these women who aren’t looking for a ‘happily ever after.’ You yourself contributed to a book with twenty five romance writers talking about ‘How I found the one and only’; and its tagline was “Happily ever after isn’t just the stuff of romance. It’s every woman’s birthright.” And I know from your bio online that you married your college sweetheart on graduation day. A romantic sort of statement. Tell us about the book.

Deanna: [00:25:15] Well the anthology is called Scribbling Women and it was done as an anthology put together for the proceeds to go to a women’s organization in New York City that I was very happy to contribute to. I always say that my husband was inevitable. That is the feeling I had from him from the very beginning. I never wanted to marry young. I was not looking for him to come in my life, or for anyone to come into my life at that point..

[00:25:55] My plan was

[00:26:22] I just I knew that there was no point in resisting this and trying to keep to my Paris plan.  I wanted him. He was the right person for me and that it was gonna be a much better life if I chose him than to wait and I wait. It was 100 percent gut instinct. And so I went with it. And you know we’ve been together well –  our 30th wedding anniversary is next year. So it’s worked. It’s a fantastic thing. Yes. A wonderful story.

[00:27:04] He just quit his job about six months ago to go freelance. So we spend every day together and he’s still my best pal. No one in the world can make me laugh as much as he can. If there’s a lot of sparky dialogue in my books between the main characters it’s because that’s how we still are with each other –  which is gross. People hate being around us and I’m sorry but he’s pretty awesome.

Jenny: [00:27:41] They’re just jealous! That brings us

Deanna: [00:28:02] Yeah. I’m a closer. I know how to finish. I will sit my tail in the chair and I will finish the book. I get a fair number of people contacting me wanting advice on how to become a writer and how to get published. And so the first thing I used to send back this really long very detailed message and then I realized nobody ever followed through on it. Like literally not once did anybody ever follow through on it. And so I finally started telling people you know what? Finish the book first and then come back and I will tell you everything I know. But you can’t do anything till you have a finished book. Because you absolutely can’t.

[00:28:47] If you’re not published, an agent is not going to look at you. You know no publisher is going to want to buy your stuff. They want to know you can finish.

[00:28:56] That’s because

[00:29:25] And that’s what separates people who like the idea of writing from people who actually are writers. You know this, starting is the bright, the new, the shiny. Oh God. That’s the fun part. When you get to fall in love with the new idea and you’re infatuated with these new characters and you get to create a new world.

[00:29:46] So you get to play God for a little while. That is intoxicating. But you can’t stay there, because if you do you never get through to the end. You just keep starting new projects and that’s fine. There’s nothing wrong with doing that as a hobby but that will never be a profession unless you learn how to be a closer.

[00:30:09] I accidentally

[00:30:39] And there’s a

[00:31:25] You’ve gotten

[00:31:47] That is so

[00:32:04] You feel like this monumental failure and you have to be okay with feeling bad about what the book is doing or feeling bad about your skill or feeling bad about that choice that you made. You have to be OK with that and you have to get comfortable with that and you have to be OK with sucking, until you can push through and make it better and not suck. You have to embrace the suck. And it’s hard, it’s not easy.

[00:32:34] It’s really

Jenny: [00:32:56] Turning to Deanna as reader, because

Deanna: [00:33:15] Well my favorite kind of classic binge

[00:33:42] It’s called The Five by Hallie Rubinhold and it is an assessment of the five women killed by Jack the Ripper. And Hallie has done a magnificent job of going in and researching these women. I knew almost nothing about their lives. I didn’t think the records existed.

[00:34:04] And she went and found them and she has constructed what their lives were. Where they were born, who they were as people, what their lives were like in Whitechapel. And it is absolutely one of the most fascinating things that I have ever read.

As far as fiction there is a book that’s getting ready to come out in July. I want to say called Milady by Laura L Sullivan. I read it as an ARC (Advanced Reader Copy) It was absolutely fantastic. It is the telling of the Three Musketeers from the perspective of Lady de Winter. And if you want to talk about ‘bad ass’ female characters in fiction Milady kind of tops the list. It’s a great deal of fun. Very swashbuckling and a really great summertime read for us – or a winter time read for you. It works for both. You can read it on a beach or by a roaring fire.

Jenny: [00:35:07] I noticed from your bio online that you’re a bit of a binge watcher as well and I wondered if there was any TV shows you’ve been viewing that you could recommend.

[00:35:16] Oh yes I am absolutely so besotted with Killing Eve. I’m not sure if it’s airing in your part of the world.  I hope so because it is a phenomenal series that’s being done for BBC and we’re getting it in the states. 

It is about a female assassin and the female detective who’s trying to sleuth her out and run her to ground and it is this massive cat and mouse game. It is stylish. It is just whip smart and an incredible cast. Season Two has just finished. So I have loved Killing Eve and on the recommendation of loads of my readers I’ve just started Fleabag which is actually done by the same writer which is a UK show and I’m getting ready to start Gentlemen Jack. All of these are strong women in these casts and just some fantastic entertainment.

Jenny: [00:36:23] I’ll have to look those up I’m not quite sure if they are available here. But we’ll have a look.

Deanna: [00:36:40] Oh So Gentlemen Jack is an HBO production so you should be able to get it through that and then Killing Eve is BBC and Fleabag is on Amazon Prime.  So hopefully those will be available free all because they’re so worth watching.

Jenny: [00:37:10] Sadly we’re running out of time. It

Deanna: [00:37:28] No. not a particle of it because I love

[00:38:06] I am so

Jenny: [00:38:31] Wow you really did have to work for it.

Deanna: [00:38:35] I did. I did. I absolutely did.

Jenny: [00:38:38] So what’s next for Deanna the writer?

Deanna: [00:38:44] Well I just turned in the fifth

[00:39:27]  I imagine you are always thinking in terms of

[00:39:37] You know there

[00:39:59] So it’s great.

Jenny: [00:40:29] I get the feeling that you very much

[00:40:39] Very much so on Twitter.  Absolutely. I no longer have a Facebook account at all. But I do periodically post to my blog and I do a monthly newsletter and Instagram.  But I Tweet every day. I adore Twitter. So that is the easiest place to find me. And readers can also drop me an email if they like, through my website.

[00:41:11] Twitter – what worked for me was thinking of it as an online cocktail party. It’s a virtual Cocktail Party. You drop in, you chat with people and you slip back out. I am working on getting better at Instagram. My problem is I forget to take pictures and you have to have a picture to make a post. So it’s you know Twitter’s easier for me because I can do it anywhere. I can just kind of fling a tweet out into the ether and it works.

[00:41:41] Instagram I have to make a little more effort. But I love the pretty of Instagram. You know it’s just so visually arresting to go through Instagram. I love it. But no Twitter. Twitter is just my jam. I like it.

[00:41:57] Wonderful Deanna. Look it’s been fantastic talking. I really think that you’re an inspiration to anyone who wants to get into this game. So thank you so much for sharing your time today.

[00:42:09] Thank you so

Soraya Lane has an impressive backlist in contemporary romance, but she’s

Hi there, I’m your host Jenny Wheeler, and today Soraya talks about the

Six

Where to find Soraya M Lane:

Website: www.sorayalane.com

Facebook:  facebook.com/SorayaLaneAuthor

 Twitter: @soraya_lane

Instagram: @sorayalaneauthor 

What

Jenny: [00:00:00] And now here Soraya. Hi there Soraya.

Soraya: [00:00:07] It’s wonderful to be here. Thank you

Jenny: [00:00:10] Beginning at the beginning was there a

Soraya: [00:00:22] Look I don’t know if there was a

Jenny: [00:01:00] Fantastic. Well you’ve now got an

Soraya: [00:01:14] I started writing quite seriously

Jenny: [00:01:38] Fantastic. So you’ve now got a really

Soraya: [00:02:13] Oh look, it was it’s something that

[00:02:31] And I’d had

Jenny: [00:03:04] Yes I can imagine that you are still

Soraya: [00:03:09] Yes I am, I am. So I’m still writing contemporary romance for St. Martin’s who a division of Macmillan Publishing in New York and yet so I still do write the contemporary though it’s not. Not so much now. And I do miss it but I’m really enjoying writing historical fiction. And yeah I guess it’s quite a challenge it’s been very different starting out in a new genre and finding my way but I am really enjoying it now. So pleased with the direction we’re going in.

Jenny: [00:03:37] Yes and 

Soraya: [00:03:40] I think the first idea I had was at the

Jenny: [00:04:05] Fantastic. Now the ones I’ve seen, each

Soraya: [00:04:29] Sure. Well actually the first book that

[00:05:00] So I’ve kept

Jenny: [00:05:24] No spoilers here. That’s right. Yeah.

Soraya: [00:05:27] Oh that sounds fabulous actually. Yeah.

Jenny: [00:05:34] It was great to write it. It was a

Soraya: [00:05:38] Yes fantastic. And as we mentioned you

Jenny: [00:05:46] You’ve written quite a few cowboy

Soraya: [00:06:09] That’s a good question. You know early

[00:06:22] And so I guess

[00:06:44] I’m a huge horse lover and I’ve always owned and ridden horses and we still have horses. So for me writing about cowboys I guess I felt I could be authentic in terms of describing what they were doing on horseback and the riding and being around horses which was really important for the stories.

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And then also I do have an American agent and I had an American editor as well so I was able to draw on I guess if I needed anything it to be steered in the right direction and with Americanisms or anything like that I did hope that those two pairs of eyes with my agent and my editor. And it was a it was a great moment when my agent said to me that there were less Kiwi-isms and my stories and she was not having to correct so many things. So that’s sort of how it came about really.

Jenny: [00:07:26] That’s fantastic. So how as a New

Soraya: [00:07:32] Yes well that wasn’t easy I can tell

[00:07:45] And I had been going to their conferences. They have an annual conference every year and they have agents and editors from America and the U.K. coming out there and I entered a contest. I’d been pitching to agents for probably three, four, five years, constantly querying them and and trying to get them to read my work.

But I happened to enter a contest which was for the first three chapters of a romance novel and I won the contest. I won a pitch with the agent who was coming out, who was Laura Bradford, She is my agent still to this day. And she placed me first in that context as well and so did the editor who was writing it and I ended up signing with that agent and selling to that editor.

[00:08:27] So I always

Jenny: [00:09:02] That’s great story. You sound as if you’ve

Soraya: [00:09:14] I did. Yes.

Jenny: [00:09:15] And then graduating from that further

[00:09:24] Oh just

[00:09:41] And I’ve also

Jenny: [00:10:21] And we should mention that you have got

Soraya: [00:10:33] That’s right.

Jenny: [00:10:34] And for your romance fiction It’s just

Soraya: [00:10:39] Yes well I’d always written Soraya Lane

[00:11:05] But my

Jenny: [00:11:25] I was wondering about readership

Soraya: [00:11:42] Sure. Up until recently my New Zealand

[00:12:18] I don’t know if there’s necessarily much difference in feedback. I do get some very upset UK readers telling me that they don’t like the American English or vice versa and it’s something that’s out of my control that my editor or publisher takes the lead on.

But I think in general I think most readers and whether it’s Canada America Australia or New Zealand are all looking for a similar type of read. They like those stories that really go deep with the characters and just are a big  exciting read that they can escape into.

Jenny: [00:12:51]  Sure. When we talked a little before we came

Soraya: [00:13:10] So no they’re not.

Jenny: [00:13:12] That’s just because you’ve got an

Soraya: [00:13:15] Look I suppose so. And it probably

[00:13:47] But I think slowly that is changing. I have another friend who writes in a completely different genre to me and you know for a while there she was wildly popular in America and no one in New Zealand knew her name.

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But it’s been really nice seeing her books stocked on the shelves in New Zealand now and you know quite rightly, seeing how well they’ve done here too. But no it’s interesting, I think it probably does come down to distribution, there just isn’t distribution. I mean the books are available for booksellers here but probably there may not be as aware of them.

Jenny: [00:14:20] And also a lot of the New Zealand companies

Soraya: [00:14:25] Sure. Yes. Absolutely.

Jenny: [00:14:32] So what kinds of things have you

Soraya: [00:14:44] Look, when I started out writing

[00:15:13] So I certainly noticed now there is a huge amount of of World War II fiction in particular being published within the historical fiction genre. And I think romance  –  that still so strong. But as I said earlier the market really is saturated.

There are so many authors writing romance. So it’s hard to stand out in that market. But I think that the biggest change I’ve noticed is simply the change with self publishing. So when I first started out you know self publishing was almost a dirty word. You know it was sort of what you did if everyone else had closed their doors in your face.

It certainly wasn’t something that many people talked about and then that really change, and self publishing is a very valid way to get your material out there now.

[00:15:55] So it’s probably had the biggest impact on the market. Price points for Kindle e-books and other e-books in general have probably been pushed down because of that. Some of the big five publishers in New York are still trying to get you know perhaps $12.99 for an e-book version in the US.

Whereas a self publishing author might have that book out for $2.99. So I’ve seen a real change in price points. in the number of authors putting the material out there and also just in that self publishing market and e-books as well. I mean e-books have just taken off.

[00:16:25] I probably

[00:16:39] And I gather

Soraya: [00:16:57] I think it has definitely made a difference

[00:17:18] The earlier ones were t$3.99 and they’re very much aware of price points and where you need to price in the market. I mean you don’t under price but you also don’t want to be so expensive that someone’s not going to click on your books and buy them. And my books are certainly on sale at various times for Kindle daily deals or Kindle monthly deals for 99 cents or $1.99.

I think it’s just a matter of making the market work for you and the publishers that have really jumped on board with that with the e-books I think are still doing well and those authors are most likely still earning good money from those sales. But yeah it can certainly be tough if your books are priced correctly.

Jenny: [00:17:57] Sure. Yeah yeah. Turning to your wider

Soraya: [00:18:15] Sure. It seems a long time ago life

Jenny: [00:18:20] Yeah pretty much most of your life.

Soraya: [00:18:22] I have and you know I think I’m

[00:18:43] So I was so determined to be a writer and I think I’ve always just had that determination that I was just going to keep going and I wasn’t going to give up.  I feel fortunate that I did sell to an international publisher and I was able to make a career of writing.

I graduated with a law degree back – oh I can’t even think what year it was. I went to university actually at 16 so I skipped what was then a seventh form year and went straight at 16 to university and did law. So I graduated when I was 20 and I suddenly had this moment where I thought ‘oh my gosh I don’t really want to be a lawyer.’

[00:19:16] And so I ended

[00:19:36] So I guess I

[00:19:50] I do vividly

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[00:20:10] I look back

[00:20:33] Whether it was

[00:20:53] I don’t tend

Jenny: [00:21:13] It’s amazing  – it impresses me that you did seven books

Soraya: [00:21:35] You know I think sometimes rewriting is harder than writing. I just haven’t. And I know the first few were not worthy of publication. The others may have some merit but unless you’re actually a writer I don’t think you’d understand the energy and effort that goes into writing an entire novel and then the crushing feeling when nobody is interested in publishing it.

You just have to put it down and pull yourself up off the floor and start the next book. I think only another writer can probably understand the emotions and how hard that is. But I was just so determined that I was going to be published and I didn’t want to just have one book published. I wanted a career as an author and I guess I just didn’t want to give up. It’s obviously what got me through, because I just didn’t want to give up at all.

Jenny: [00:22:25] Yeah that’s fantastic. This leads very

Soraya: [00:22:41] Oh look it absolutely is. It’s just that determination of never giving up. And I think also just in terms of my outlook on my career I very much think of it as a career. It’s a business for me. I’m very focused on that.

Not only do I need the income from writing. But I need to work and I’d personally much rather be at my computer at home than working in a law office or doing anything else that I might have ended up doing. And I think the other thing too is that you know my editors will send me revision letters still to this day after all the books I’ve been writing with the same editor.

They always want changes they always want you to do different things. In my case when I started writing historical fiction for Amazon I was actually writing contemporary women’s fiction for them as well and they said look those books are selling well enough they’re doing okay but you know we don’t want to publish them anymore.

[00:23:31] We want to

[00:23:59] So I think

Jenny: [00:24:12] Your comments about the World War II

Soraya: [00:24:37] And I think it’s you know it’s always harder to stand out when there’s more and more books published in the specific genre you are writing.  I keep an eye on the Kindle Top 100 best sellers and the number of historical fiction books that are in that Top 100 now has just grown enormously.

Some of those books – there’s a very popular book also published by Amazon called Beneath A Scarlet Sky that is a very different historical fiction book to mine. I mean I’m very much writing woman’s fiction and but they’re all doing well and I think it’s you know male and female readerships have really embraced that genre or that specific World War II period which has been really interesting to see.

Jenny: [00:25:19] Yeah. Yeah. But this podcast is called

Soraya: [00:25:38] Sure. You know I’ve actually just started the Seven Sisters series by Lucinda Riley. I have heard so much about it. And my mother in particular has been telling me constantly that I must read it. So I’ve actually just started the first book.

That’s been enjoyable I mean I do find it very hard to find time for reading and this we’re on holiday but I’ve started that. So I do love sort of suspense and thrillers. I often don’t read the same genre that I’m writing and because I like to sort of you know read something completely different so I did binge read a lot of Leanne Moriarty books and I really like her stories as well. So Big Little lies and The Husband’s Secret and those sort of books and then going  back further in time. I loved the Bronze Horseman series by Paulina Simmons and that stands out to me as one of my absolute favorite series.

Jenny: [00:26:32] And yes I must admit I just been just

Soraya: [00:26:44]  Absolutely.

Jenny: [00:26:47] But yeah they are something absolutely

Soraya: [00:26:59]  Yes absolutely.  Well I’m on it early on into it but I can

Jenny: [00:27:22] Yeah. The luxury to be able to read them

Soraya: [00:27:37] Sure absolutely.

Jenny: [00:27:39] And I know her other books as well I

Jenny: [00:27:58] Oh that’s fabulous. Thank you, right.

[00:28:15] That’s a great

[00:28:30] I think I needed a few years as my writing apprenticeship just to find my voice and develop my style. But no you know I’ve been happy with how everything’s happened.  My agent’s very proactive. We’ve got a great relationship.

She helps me find every opportunity and I take every opportunity even if it means that I have crazy deadlines and I have no idea how I’m going to meet my deadlines.  I think as long as you’re always saying yes and open to change and  new opportunities you know it just keeps your career moving in different directions which can be surprising but I’m actually happy with how it so all panned out to be honest.

Jenny: [00:29:08] Talk about your working style a little

Soraya: [00:29:17] Oh look definitely workaholic. And that’s sometimes out of necessity because you know trying to as a writer make sure that you have enough income coming in for the year and that sort of thing can be can sometimes be a juggling act.

But no you know I used to be what I guess you’d call a pantser. So writing by the seat of my pants and not doing a lot of plotting when I’m writing contemporary romance I think I can get away with that and I can enjoy that process. I ran into a lot of trouble trying to do it as a historical fiction author so I now do a huge amount of plotting for my historical fiction.

[00:29:51] I pretty much

[00:30:18] But the first

Jenny: [00:30:41] So do you do all of that before you

Soraya: [00:30:48] Yes. Well actually I did start writing

Jenny: [00:31:23] It sounds amazing. So what is next for

[00:31:31] Sure. So I’ve got The Girls of Pearl Harbor which is coming out July 16th which I’m very excited about. I’m also pitching new ideas for new historical fiction. So I’m hoping that I’ll have details of those new stories on my website in the next few months.

I’m finishing up a contemporary romance story at the moment as well for St Martin’s Press, And I never mentioned to you that I also write middle grade fiction for children. So I write those stories as Soraya Nicholas.

So I had a series that was actually available in New Zealand it was in all the bookstores which was great. And that was called Starlight Stables. So I really enjoyed writing for children and that sort of I guess 8 to 12 age readership. And I’m working on a new middle grade story as well so I am definitely when you asked before whether I was a workaholic. I think you’d probably say yes I’m always working on multiple projects and always thinking of new ideas.

Jenny: [00:32:27] Fantastic. You mentioned your website.

Soraya: [00:32:40] Sure. So you can find me online and more information at my website which is www.Sorayalane.com. I’m also on Facebook which is probably where I have most of my interaction with readers as well as Twitter and Instagram. But if you head to my website you can find all those links. So Facebook is probably the fastest way to to engage with me online but I always answer emails so it may take me a day or two sometimes but I always respond to my readers I love hearing from readers.

Jenny: [00:33:12] Thank you so much. Soraya I’m sort of

Soraya: [00:33:19] So am I sometimes.

Jenny: [00:33:21] But it’s been wonderful talking to you.

Soraya: [00:33:28] Great. That sounds fantastic. Thank you

Jenny: [00:33:31] You’re welcome. Thank you so much.

If you enjoy Soraya M. Lane’s World War II women’s fiction, you might enjoy Mark Ellis’s World War II Blitz Thrillers or Rennie Airth’s War Weary Gentleman detective, also on the Joys of Binge Reading.

Thanks To Our Technical Support:

The Joys of Binge Reading podcast is put together with wonderful technical

Our voice overs are done by Abe Raffills, and Abe’s another gem. He got 20

Chanel Cleeton’s two richly imagined dual time stories of Cuban America are break through best sellers, with the first, Next Year in Havana, a Reese Witherspoon Book Club choice. But Chanel’s put in a full apprenticeship writing contemporary romance before she enjoyed “overnight success.”

 Hi there I’m your host Jenny Wheeler, and today Chanel talks about the family history behind her books and how a note on a CIA file inspired the plot for her most recent book, When We Left Cuba.

Six

Where to find Chanel Cleeton:

Website: www.chanelcleeton.com

Facebook: @AuthorChanelCleeton

 Twitter: @chanelcleeton

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/chanelcleeton/

What

Jenny: Hello there Chanel and welcome to the show it’s great to have you with us.J

Chanel: [00:00:06] Thank you so much for having me. I’m

Jenny: [00:00:10]  I can see from reading the two Cuban books and looking online at some of your other work, that you might feel a little bit like one of those people who is now described as an “overnight success.” Because the Cuban books have really taken center stage. The first one of them Next Year in Havana became a Reese Witherspoon book club choice. But you’ve done a lot of writing before those books. So it’s one of those cases of “many years  work” to become an “overnight success.” Is that right?

Chanel: [00:00:48] Yes. I had written about 10 contemporary

Jenny: [00:01:03] Yes. You’re a New York Times and a USA

Chanel: [00:01:25] I think law school was really probably

[00:01:46] I mean there’s

Jenny: [00:02:09] That’s fantastic. You’ve mentioned

Chanel: [00:02:36] I was really at a crossroads in my

[00:02:50] And then at

[00:03:15] And my dad

[00:03:32] That question

Jenny: [00:03:58] Well yes. And the true story of

Chanel: [00:04:15] It was not as romantic as  what’s in the book! But really just jewelry

[00:04:37] We have quite

Jenny: [00:05:00] Yes. Next Year in Havana. That’s a

Chanel: [00:05:28] It does. I mean it’s typically a toast that people say, depending on where you’re from. Some people say ‘Next Year in Cuba.’ Some people say Next Year in Havana. But it is a toast: often at New Year’s that you’ll say. Just speaking for my family, I know my grandparents certainly held that longing to return throughout their lives. So I do think that is a sentiment that many people share who are separated from their homeland.

Jenny: [00:05:55] Yes. Yes. And I’m a bit vague about

Chanel: [00:06:10] It’s still kind of unfurling. So there

[00:06:30] You know it’s

Jenny: [00:06:44] Yes it’s it’s rather remarkable after

Chanel: [00:06:51] I mean it’s definitely yes, a unique

Jenny: [00:07:00] Yeah. Look Next Year in Havana for

[00:07:34] It tells the

Chanel: [00:07:55] I actually didn’t get to go to Cuba. I

[00:08:41] But in the

[00:09:07] So my dad and I made the decision that out of respect for him it really wasn’t appropriate to go at this time.  You know it’s a really complicated issue within the Cuban-American community. I have extended family that have gone back and I know many people do. And while I certainly respect that, I think every family grapples with it a little bit differently. And for us it just felt like the best thing was was to not go with the current situation as it is.

Jenny: [00:09:36] And so this family that you’ve got

Chanel: [00:09:43] It’s really our extended family. The

Jenny: [00:10:13] Yes. Does having a book become a Reese

Chanel: [00:10:26] It doesn’t. It’s one of those

Jenny: [00:11:03] Fantastic. I think it would make a

Chanel: [00:11:25] Oh thank you. I was drawn to a lot of

Jenny: [00:11:49] And that’s lovely. You’ve also

Chanel: [00:12:12] Yes. And I think you know that’s kind

Jenny: [00:12:51] Do you feel as if it was the right

Chanel: [00:13:24] I think certainly relations starting to

Jenny: [00:13:49] That is right. That’s quite an

Chanel: [00:14:10] I did. I do a playlist for all of my books and I actually put them up on Spotify so my readers can listen to what I was listening to when I worked on the books. I definitely listened to a lot of one of Buena Vista Social club. 

Chanel: [00:14:23] That’s kind of one of the hallmarks for

Jenny: [00:14:50] Yes. Now turning to wider career. Could

Chanel: [00:15:08] Yes I’ve been really fortunate to have

[00:15:29] And then I

Jenny: [00:15:57] Yes and the second book When We Left

[00:16:11] Yeah right. I

Jenny: [00:16:31] Yes. When you were researching this

Chanel: [00:16:41] I delved much deeper into that world. I

[00:17:19] In historical

Jenny: [00:17:34] It’s a fascinating little bit of

Chanel: [00:17:45] Yes there is. That’s definitely

[00:18:00] So you really

Jenny: [00:18:23] Sure. Is there one thing that you’ve

Chanel: [00:18:37] You know I definitely think there is an

[00:19:18]  Also I think just working hard on being

Jenny: [00:19:45] Sure sure. And being the Reese

[00:20:02] I might do

Jenny: [00:20:38] Have you got a favorite way to  relax and unwind? Are you a workaholic personality?

Chanel: [00:20:47] I don’t know as I was ever a

Jenny: [00:21:28] Sure. So that brings us very nicely to

Chanel: [00:21:55] I definitely think I am. I tend to binge by genre really so I read pretty much every genre and I’ll sort of get in moods where you know I’ll just want to read mysteries. And so I’ll read you know 10 or 15 mysteries in a row and then I’ll say OK I want to switch it up and so I’ll read historical fiction. So really very much just mood dependent. For me some of my favorite books I’ve read recently one of them was A Place For Us by  place for us by Fatima Farheen Mirza.

[00:22:22] It’s this

[00:22:42] I also loved an historical fiction The Age Of Light, by Whitney Scharer.

[00:22:45] That just came out and that was a really beautiful book that I  stayed up late reading. And also I just finished Katherine Arden’s fantasy series. I just finished the Winter of the Witch which was the third book in the Winternight trilogy.

[00:22:59] And those

Jenny: [00:23:09] You mentioned historical fiction and that is a genre seems to be growing very much and this is funny quite a number of the authors that I’m reading or planning to interview at the moment have had a similar pathway to you. They started in contemporary romance and then have moved into the historical fiction area. Why do you think there is that popularity for historical fiction?

Chanel: [00:23:37] You know I think there’s just so much that’s interesting to learn about history. And I think there are so many parallels between the past and the present that really inform readers and make for fascinating storytelling opportunities. So I think it’s really just a rich goldmine of inspiration for authors.

Jenny: [00:23:56] We started to come to the end of that time to be this. I’m just wondering when you pause and look back over your right and career at this stage if you were beginning now would you do things the same way, or would they be things you might want to change.

Chanel: [00:24:16] You know I’m really happy with kind of the way everything’s progressed for me and I definitely think everything’s sort of had to happen in the order that it did. I don’t know that if Next Year  In Havana had been my first book I would have been able to to do justice to the story. It was definitely a challenging book to write with the dual time lines and an ambitious project for me at the time. It definitely challenged me as a writer. But I think having that foundation of having written 10 other books gave me the confidence that I needed to tackle the story and to write about something that was so personal.

[00:24:51] So I

Jenny: [00:25:20] Sure. And that does bring us to talking about what is next. I think I read somewhere that there might be a third Cuban book. What are you working on at the moment. What does your next 12 months of writing look like?

Chanel: [00:25:34] So my next book release will be out the summer of 2020. And that one’s actually finished. I’m waiting on edits from my editor but it’s written and it’s set in 1935 in the Florida Keys and it features three heroines. One is the Beatrix’s aunt and she’s coming up to the Keys from Havana on her honeymoon and her life intersects with these two other women. One is a native of the Keys and the other woman is coming down from the north east on Flagler’s magnificent railroad that he built that was supposed to go all the way to Cuba.

[00:26:07] Their lives

The mos[00:26:47] And so it’s really kind of a tragic moment in history. But one that was certainly fascinating to write about with all the cultural intersections and just the rich setting of the Keys that really comes to life. That one will be out in the summer of 2020. Then right now I’m currently working on my book that will be out in 2021 and that one is set in the Gilded Age and the time of the Spanish American War. So turn of the century and it’s actually the first time I’ve written about a real life heroine. Her name was Evangelina Cisneros.

[00:27:20] And she is a

[00:27:47] So once again

Jenny: [00:27:59] And the one that’s coming out in 2020

Chanel: [00:28:04] It doesn’t. We’re still going back and forth on titles. I will admit I love the titles for Next Year in Havana and for When We Left Cuba so much that I’ve set the bar a little bit high. So we’re trying to find the perfect title that fits that book. The one that’s gonna be out in 2021 actually does have a title. That one will be The Most Beautiful Girl in Cuba because that was the title that was given to Evangelina Cisneros by the New York papers. It was the front page headline that they used to describe her.

Jenny: [00:28:35] Yes you mentioned the titles the titles

Chanel: [00:28:44] Oh thank you. I cannot take credit for

Jenny: [00:29:04] That’s lovely. You mentioned how you

Chanel: [00:29:19] My Web site is www.chanelcleeton.com and then I’m also really active on Twitter, (@ChanelCleeton)

Instagram https://www.instagram.com/chanelcleeton/

Facebook@AuthorChanelCleeton

Jenny: [00:29:28] Yes you’ve got some gorgeous graphics

Chanel: [00:29:40] Oh thank you. Thank you so much.

Jenny: [00:29:47] Now is it possible if you had approaches from New Zealand or Australian book clubs have you done any international book clubs or is it mainly within the US? And would you be open to that?

(Recipes for Cuban food to cook for a When We Left Cuba book club night can be found on Chanel’s website, Sounds a gorgeous idea! Seafood paella and El Floridita daiquiris, an Ernest Hemingway favorite, anyone? Ed note)

Chanel: [00:29:59] I’m definitely open to it. I think it

Jenny: [00:30:07] It’s been fantastic to talk. Thank you

Chanel: [00:30:14] Thank you so much. Thanks for having me.

Thanks To Our Technical Support:

The Joys of Binge Reading podcast is put together with wonderful technical

Our voice overs are done by Abe Raffills, and Abe’s another gem. He got 20

Rebecca Rosenberg’s fascination with women who challenge convention has led her to write historical novels celebrating glorious women of past days – Charmian London, the unsung collaborator of writer Jack London’s work, and Baby Doe Tabor, once the richest woman in America.

Hi there I’m your host Jenny Wheeler and today Rebecca talks about losing everything in last year’s California’s fires, how writing helped her pull through, and her latest project, the story of the five remarkable widows who created Champagne. That’s right . . Bubbles, the drink.

Six

Where to find Rebecca Rosenberg:

Website: http://rebeccarosenberg.com/

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/rebeccarosenbergnovels/

Goodreads:

https://www.goodreads.com/author/show/7652050.Rebecca_Rosenberg

Bookbub: https://www.bookbub.com/authors/rebecca-rosenberg

What

Jenny: But now, here’s Rebecca. .  Hello there Rebecca and welcome to the show, it’s great to have you with us.

Rebecca: [00:01:48]

Jenny: [00:01:56] I know, and not just in California but on a lavender farm in California. That conjures up all sorts of wonderful images for me. And I’m just wondering what stage are you at with the farm at the moment? Are the bushes in bloom at the moment?

Rebecca: [00:02:10]

Jenny: [00:02:21] Oh

Rebecca: [00:02:24]

But every single thing burnt to the ground. Everything. Our house was actually made out of brick and tile and stone, but even it is down to the ground.

But the good news is that we are replanting this month. So I

Jenny: [00:03:03] My goodness I didn’t pick up on that on your blog! I’ve can’t have been looking closely enough! That’s a big thing to go through isn’t it?

Rebecca: [00:03:12] It has been a crazy year I’ve looked in five rental houses. It’s been a lot but we’re at this point where the house will be finished in September and our lavender field is going to take a whole new shape. I’m so excited. Instead of regular rows, we’re doing concentric circles. Can you believe that? So it’s gonna be fun to try something new.

Jenny: [00:03:41] You probably haven’t had much time to devote to your books, but turning to the writing, was there once upon a time moment when you decided that you wanted to write fiction? And if so was there a catalyst for it.

Rebecca: [00:03:55] The catalyst was that my girlfriend and I decided, let’s see, that was about 12 years ago. We decided that we would write novels together. And actually, this book that’s coming out this month, Gold Digger, The Remarkable Baby Doe Tabor. was the book that I started writing 12 years ago. It was a fun thing that we did. We would meet every week and read our scenes and we just started that way.

And then I got hooked on it and started taking all sorts of

I just really loved writing. It came at a really good time

Jenny: [00:05:07] Fantastic. So you have got two books with two very interesting women. Jack London’s wife Charmian and that’s based on quite a lot of real history about the triangle between Jack London his wife and the magician Harry Houdini. Tell us a bit about that?

Rebecca: [00:05:25] Yes so, I started writing that book because our lavender farm is right across from the London ranch – Jack London’s beautiful Beauty Ranch. He called it The Beauty Ranch and it’s a thousand acre ranch. It’s quite something.

For 30 years really, I have been hiking all over that ranch and seeing all the mysteries that lie there. Their big beautiful home, like a 12,000 square foot home, was burnt to the ground before they even moved in. So it has a lot of character and I just became really enamored with Charmian Kittredge London who in the 1900’s believed in free love and she was a worker.

She worked all her life; she had her own money. She was a writer and she really. I discovered, was how Jack – well you know he wrote 50 books in 15 years. And you know that that’s pretty much impossible. I can’t even understand how he did it. And they were all quite involved and very interesting. Well he did it.

I discovered he managed it because Charmian London would listen to his stories. So he would just dictate his stories, telling her story. And she would type them up for him and then she would spend the rest of the day editing them and working on them. So I feel like she was the unsung hero of Jack London’s work. I just really wanted to tell that story.

Jenny: [00:07:08] Sure. I read somewhere that at the stage where your book is opening they went back to that ranch. He was fairly broken in health and frayed in spirit. And they had that disastrous fire there. They had just about completed a new home which I think was pushing him into quite a bit of financial stress. And it burned down, so the house that is there now, is that a different house?

Rebecca: [00:07:35] So there, I’ve told you, it’s a thousand acres so they have a small cottage that they lived in. And that is still there. It’s a cute little Victorian farm cottage and you can still see where they slept on their sleeping porches outside. They had two separate sleeping porches and they had small offices inside and it was quite small but cozy and it had a beautiful garden outside. And they have the big shire horse barns made out of stone, but they were building about a mile away.

[00:08:14] You can hike there still and see the whole ruins. They were building this 12,000 square foot amazing stone and log home. And yes, they had been building it for two or three years. I am trying to remember I guess it was three years and they were just about to move in and it went up in flames.  At the time they did not know how it burned down. It was at night and there were several theories that are in the book and that’s part of the mystery of the book. Houdini of course, can’t let it go. So he has to figure out how the house burned. It’s kind of fun.

Jenny: [00:09:01] Yes it sounds like a lot of fun. That property is now part of a national park is it, so anybody can go and visit, is that right?

Rebecca: Anyone to go visit but it’s actually it’s own privately owned park. When California lost all of its money for parks the locals decided that they would buy that park and they run it themselves. It’s so beautiful and I really recommend that anyone go there. You see all sorts of exciting things. Jack London was wild about this ranch. He loved it so much and he built a Pig Palace that’s still there. It comes this beautiful turret in the center and all the little pig hovels are around and you can just imagine how inventive and kind of crazy he was.

[00:09:59]  In fact I really think he was bipolar because he would be really manic in these very exciting things that he did on the ranch. He bought 300,000 eucalyptus trees from Australia and planted them all over California, and all over his ranch as well. He just got very manic about doing certain things and Charmian supported him. And as you alluded to, that was part of the reason that he had to keep writing so much, because he was obsessed with this Beauty Ranch.

Jenny: We should

Rebecca: [00:10:52]

Jenny: [00:11:12] You have every right to be proud of

Rebecca: [00:11:34]

[00:11:54] And this is strange but she came West because everything that her family had burned in a fire. So now isn’t that strange? So weird, that her all of Baby Doe’s things burnt in a fire and all of Jack London’s things. And then my house burning in a fire. I think I have to get off this kick, somehow.

[00:12:19] But Baby Doe –

You find all that out in the book. What it’s really like to

It’s dusty and it’s dark and you’re dynamiting for this

And so Baby Doe did run this mine alone and then she moved

This is Horace Tabor. He’d been prospecting his whole life

[00:14:14] But somehow they just really loved each other. So they actually got married in the White House in Washington D.C. So at our other capital with the president in attendance.

[00:14:30] But their life was difficult. While they were the richest couple in the entire country, they were scandalized and ostracized by society and by politicians. And so he lived a very sad and a lonely life as a very rich woman until 1893 when we had the Silver Crash and they actually de-monetized silver. I know you have different money there, but we have silver dollars here in America. There were actually made from silver. You can buy a silver dollar for one hundred dollars today, so silver has really gone up, but it in those days they de-monetized it.

The Tabors lost everything and so it’s the story of really rags

Jenny: [00:15:45] There are similarities between Charmian and Baby Doe and in the way that they both challenged the conventions of the day, aren’t there?

Rebecca: [00:15:53] There are, but I think that what I’m getting from some of the people who have read both books is that Charmian London had a much tougher man to deal with in Jack London. Jack London was one of these superstars. Like a genius and a superstar and she really had to cater to him. Horace Tabor, I guess he is a different man too. He’s a gambler and he gambles everything on silver and he loses.

So it is interesting how these two different women deal with

[00:16:43] But I think

Jenny: [00:16:46] Yes. Yes. And you do have a sequel for Baby

Rebecca: [00:16:53]

[00:16:57] And this is crazy but they named her Baby Doe Tabor. That’s very different name. It comes from the miners nicknaming her after a baby deer. They thought she had the biggest eyes and if you see pictures of her on Google you’ll see that she has these enormous eyes and so they named her Baby Doe. And then the Tabors named their daughters the strangest, longest names. One is named Silver Dollar. She is actually named Rosemary Echo Silver Dollar.

[00:17:34] So the next book which I’ve already written is about Baby Doe and Silver Dollar and how they go up to the Matchless Mine and they live there trying to get their fortune back, and what happens with that.

Jenny: [00:17:50] There are relics of Baby Doe Tabor in history. I was reading online about her wedding dress which has been this on show in Colorado somewhere. Tell us about that for readers who might be interested.

Rebecca: [00:18:12] Yeah. You can see it if you Google Baby Doe Tabor ‘s wedding dress. It does exist and I’ve seen it at the Colorado history museum and it is exquisitely made at the time, which was 1883.

[00:18:30] At the time she got married it cost $17,000 dollars then in 1883. So I really can’t even I should figure out how much that is today.

[00:18:42] But it would be huge, it would be more like $70,000 dollars today. So it was just beautiful. And she has a number of outfits that you can see online.

I will be speaking at the history museum which I’m really excited about at the end of August and they’re going to bring out all the relics they have of the Tabors so that people who come to my presentation can see them firsthand.

And one thing I want to add to this is one of my favorite relics of hers is the seen on the cover of Baby Doe book because that is an actual painting of her done the year that she died in 1935. I just love that painting and the story behind that is that this painter used to paint all the back drops and the dioramas in the museums and when she died he painted this in tribute of one of the beautiful woman in America at the time.

Jenny: [00:19:58] That’s a gorgeous story. Yes. And it would be wonderful to see those the objects.  That will be a lovely occasion for you in August.

Rebecca: [00:20:07] Oh I am looking forward to it. And I’m also speaking at the Tabor Opera House in Leadville and I’m thrilled about that as well.

Jenny: So how

Rebecca: [00:20:25] So when Horace Tabor was first in Leadville and there was no gold found or anything, there were only 200 people there. It was just a mining camp and then in five years because of the Gold Rush it got to 40,000 people – from 200 to 40,000 people. I can’t imagine what that would be like to live in that kind of environment where it grows from 200 to 40,000. And now today it is probably two thousand.

What I love about Leadville, is that any one can ever go there. It looks pretty much exactly like it did in 1880. Yes I love it. Yeah. It still has the mine – the Matchless Mine –  it has all the old houses that you can tour through. where Horace Tabor lived. It has the Tabor Opera House. It has the Silver Dollar Saloon which is fantastic with all the heads of animals and things. It’s just really a wild mining town.

Jenny: [00:21:42] So

Rebecca: [00:22:02]

Jenny: [00:22:07] Oh that’s Champagne France. Oh sorry.

Rebecca: [00:22:10] And I love champagne and I went to Champagne, France, many times . . . and I discovered that there were five main widows back in the 1800s – from 1800 to 1950. There are five main women who really made champagne the worldwide phenomenon that it is today.

[00:22:37] So that is going to be a series of five books and I’m working right now on my third draft of the first one which is Veuve Clicquot. Have you ever had Veuve Clicquot champagne?

Jenny: [00:22:51] I think so. I certainly have heard of

Rebecca: [00:22:54] So it’s the one with the orange label. “Veuve” actually means widow. So the interesting thing about why these women were able to do something in the 1800’s when no women worked at all is because they were widows.

There was a glitch in the law. If you were married then everything that you did and everything that you owned belonged to your husband. And if you weren’t married it all belonged to your father and they were in charge of you. Like you’re not a person, like you’re an animal or an object.

So the only women who could really do anything were widows.

Jenny: [00:23:53] Yeah that sounds like a great story. I’m excited about that. And now, to turn into a wider career. Tell us something about your life before you became a writer.

Rebecca: [00:24:06]

It’s still online because we sold the company, so you can look it up. It’s called Sonoma Lavender. And so we grew the lavender and we made about 300 different products out of lavender from Bath and Body to sachets to pillows to the little stuffed animals to the heated spa products like the neck collars that to heat up in the microwave and wrap around for a great aroma therapy and heat therapy and we loved that business.

[00:24:56] We did that for 20 years and then we just sold it right before the fire. So it was a big crazy year. We sold our business one month like September. The fire was October. And so it’s been a wild ride.

Jenny:  It certainly has just. Reverting back for a

Rebecca: [00:25:25] No and I loved her story. Someday I’ll convince her to keep going. She wrote the book and it’s a great book but she too she also had her house burned and everything, so she did not continue with that. Yeah I’ll tell you asked about it that!

Jenny: [00:25:45] It would be amazing if you both end up being published. Do you have a particular writing routine that you follow? I imagine that at the moment with your life a bit disrupted it might be hard to maintain a routine.

Rebecca: [00:26:00] No. That’s what keeps me sane. Really. I write in the morning right away when I get up and that is early like – 5:00am. I like to light a candle and start writing because it’s quiet and there aren’t distractions.

You can get right into the next scene. I write by scene so

And so it’s really fantastic to have Napoleon as the “little devil,” that’s what she called him and this is all true. So you really just have that time early in the morning to get into that character and I like to write a scene a day which is something that Jack London always did.  A scene is about a thousand words and he always had a thousand words a day that he would try to write.

Jenny: [00:27:07] Fantastic. Tell me is there one thing

Rebecca: [00:27:12]

But if you just write it all down and not be too critical in

[00:27:40] I would say

Jenny: [00:28:07] Yeah that is a good way, to turn off your internal editor with the first draft isn’t it?

Rebecca: [00:28:15]

That means you’re never going to get that book done. The best way is to say what is the story I’m trying to tell and get it down and then work on the structure of it. And then you go in and start working on the characters and the setting and everything else that you want to create in that book

Jenny: [00:28:48] Yeah that’s right. We are starting to

Rebecca: [00:29:11] Oh my Kindle has so many titles on it that I can barely look at them. So I think I’m a binge selector too!  Whenever I’m on social media and someone tells me about a book, I will immediately download it. And then I got the Kindle Unlimited.  So I just download everything that I want to. So that I don’t forget about it, you know. So I’ve got a lot of books. What do I like to read?

[00:29:44] Because I’m

[00:30:20] So I like that

Jenny: [00:30:24] Any of those whose names come to mind?

Rebecca: [00:30:27]

[00:30:36] That’s a great

[00:31:06] Oh and also Hillbilly

Jenny: [00:31:18] I haven’t heard of Hillbilly Elegy. It’s

Rebecca: [00:31:25] They’re all on the same subject. I do a lot of volunteer work at our Valley of the Moon Children’s Center. Some of these children have grown up with parents who are either uneducated or maybe they get into drugs and the poor kids are there trying to learn how to deal with their lives.

So I guess I get into a streak like that reading. Did you

Jenny: [00:32:05] We’ll put links to those in the show notes for people who might like to follow up on them. So that’s marvelous, thank you. Looking back over your writing career at this stage if you were starting over again would you make any changes or are you pretty much happy that it’s gone the way thing have gone?

Rebecca: [00:32:26] Well I think I wish I would have started earlier, because I really enjoy it.

[00:32:34] But you know I’ve had the lavender career was 20 years and before that I was in marketing. So I have a long and fun life. So now this is very exciting to be able to create these stories for people to read and I really do love the way that the social networking of readers and authors is developing – just like your program here.

[00:33:01] That’s so exciting. And it never existed before and I have a Facebook page that we run which is American historical novels and there’s just so much interchanging. I had a hundred different people talking about Gold Digger last week which was really fascinating. It’s fun to have those relationships with the readers.

Jenny: [00:33:26] Fantastic. We’ll put that Facebook group on the show notes as well. So what have you got planned for the rest of this year in terms of your writing. I suppose it sounds like it might be your Veuve Clicquot book that’s going to be taking most of your time, but tell us about this year?

Rebecca: [00:33:43] So I’m in my third draft of Veuve Clicquot and then I’m going to go over the Silver Dollar and do another draft of that and I’m hoping to release that one next year. We’ll see how I get on with the Champagne Widows. It’s really a lot to incorporate, the French Revolution and Napoleon along with wine making and what it’s like to live as a widow during that time. So that may take me another year yet.

Jenny: [00:34:19] And do you have to do some of your research in French? Is your French up to that?

Rebecca: No, I do not know French. But I’ve visited there – how many times? Maybe four times. And of course I would always want to go back but when I go there – and I did this with Gold Digger as well – I hire a historian to take me everywhere and to tell me everything so that I can really see it and feel it firsthand and get to ask my own questions. I find that the history books don’t give you all the little things that you might want to know as a novelist. I actually had the Veuve Clicquot historian for half a day when I was there last, and they gave me their personal number and their history books and everything so I’ve got a lot to work.

Jenny: [00:35:24] That sounds wonderful!

Rebecca: Are you a writer?

Jenny: Yes I write historical mysteries set in 1860s California.

Rebecca: [00:35:32]

Jenny: [00:35:39] Oh thank you. That’s kind. Do you enjoy

Rebecca: [00:35:49] Well I have my website which is www.RebeccaRosenberg.com And I have a great mailing list going on I do a newsletter say once a month, about interesting things that we’re finding out with the different books that I’m writing. And then I have a Facebook page which is Rebecca Rosenberg novels. That’s the Facebook.

And I also like to connect on Bookbub and Goodreads. And then also this American Historical Novels. I’m the moderator of that Facebook page and I have another Facebook page I know you’ll understand. It’s called Breathless Bubbles and Books. That’s where the champagne connection is. Breathlessbubblesand books on Facebook.

Jenny: [00:36:59] That sounds wonderful. And also we’ll put the links to your former lavender business, What a wonderful conglomeration of topics.

Rebecca: Great. I love it.

Jenny: [00:37:13] Thanks Rebecca. Look we have now run out of time together but it’s been marvelous talking to you, it really has. I think people who are planning their next holiday would have some great ideas to follow up on, from hearing you talk.

Rebecca: [00:37:27]

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