The MagLife

Steve Lockwood and Josh Davis join Daniel Shaw for today’s episode of The Mag Life Podcast to talk about Precision Rifle shooting. Steve is a competitor and Josh is a former active duty army sniper, now turned enthusiast. Both work at GunMag Warehouse. Steve is the purchasing manager and Josh is the order fulfillment manager. Steve just got back from a major shooting event, the Precision Rifle Finale.

Listen in as the three discuss the benefits of precision rifle shooting, from how to get started in the sport to the camaraderie that you’ll find amongst the people who love the sport.

Host: Daniel Shaw

Guest: Steve Lockwood and Josh Davis

Introduction/Timeline: Stephanie Kimmell 

1:31 How do you get invited to something like a national Precision Rifle competition?

Daniel asks if it’s common for people to just shoot a few matches and then make it, or if people work all year long to accumulate enough points to be able to go to the national championship. He asks, “What’s the goal?”

Steve started competing nationally about three seasons ago, with the goal to make the Finale in that season. He says he dry-fired about an hour per day, five days per week, along with training at the range every Saturday and Sunday. He shot about 18,000 rounds over the course of 12 months in order to train up and get better at the sport. He made it in by the skin of his teeth. 

2:16 How did Josh get into the army sniper program?

Josh says he got pretty lucky in that regard. Coming out of training, he joined an airborne infantry battalion. The head of the battalion sniper section invited him to try out for the reconnaisance platoon. So, he took a risk. He tried out and was selected, later being picked for the sniper section.

Josh says, “We did a pretty good train-up and I had my opportunity to go to the schoolhouse at Fort Benning. I spent the whole rest of my short five-year career doing that.”

Obviously, he liked it well enough to continue with precision rifle shooting as a civilian.

3:40 How is long-range shooting different from other kinds of shooting?

Daniel opines that long-range isn’t the most exciting form of shooting. You have to take your time, there’s math and calculations involved in getting that first-round impact. But he acknowledges that to some people it’s extremely exciting. There are guys who do other types of shooting as well, but precision shooting has become their main area of expertise. He asks Josh, “What’s the draw?”

Josh says that for him personally, “There’s just something about hitting a small 10-inch target at a thousand yards that puts a smile on your face. The level of precision it takes all the different factors that come into consideration, from environmentals to velocity, ballistic coefficient. To me, it’s almost like the culmination of marksmanship at the highest level.”

He says there are levels that exceed precision rifle shooting, as in Extreme Long Range (ELR),  “but for your average Joe who doesn’t want to spend $7 every time he pulls the trigger, PRS and regular precision shooting is just a good way to exercise your fundamentals and learn a whole lot about every form of ballistics from internal to external.”

Precision rifle competition shooting is a good way to put everything you know about shooting together for a common goal, which is to just hit really small stuff from really far away.

5:16 Steve has competed in other shooting sports disciplines, so why has precision rifle shooting become his main one? Daniel asks, “Is it because you’re best at it?”

Steve says he had a pretty natural progression in shooting sports. He used to compete in high-power rifle, which is a little bit closer range at 100 to 200, maybe out to 500 yards, depending on the facility. When he relocated for work to a place that didn’t have any rifle matches, he got into pistol sports, USPSA and IDPA predominantly. Then, 3-Gun Nation kicked off, so he got involved in that. He was in the first ever 3-Gun magazine and competed on a national level in all three of those sports, simultaneously.

“I won quite a few titles in USPSA and IDPA and kind of got bored with the sport, didn’t know what else to do and in that time a long range facility opened up in the vicinity of where I was living, because I had relocated again.”

His new employer sent him to a PRS match, since he was the only one with skill doing it, so that’s how he got started in Precision Rifle shooting. He says, “I went, had a great time, and just took off from there — never stopped.”

6:33 For those who don’t work in the firearms industry, the regular end-user out there, how do you get into it?

Digging into YouTube videos and such, it can seem daunting, with the cost of rifles, gear, equipment, and backup rifles. At a glance, it looks like it has a very high dollar amount and can become time consuming, with a very high learning curve as well. But Daniel notes that he doesn’t think that’s the case, talking to Steve and Josh and hearing their stories.

So where do you start, and whats the bare minimum you need to get out and experience Precision Rifle shooting and see if its something they want to pursue?

7:24 The first thing you need is a proper mindset.

Steve advises, “If you have the wrong mindset going into it, you’re going to have a horrible experience. But if you go in with whatever you own, whether it’s an ar-15, an AR-15, your grandfather’s hunting rifle…just go out and show up and be willing to learn and understand where you are in your learning process. You can have a great time.”

He tells a story about the North Texas Precision Championship about a year ago. He was in a squad of seven people. He was in first place, going into that match, so he was competing to win the North Texas title.

“I had five new shooters on my squad. All five of them never had shot a match. One of them had only bought a gun a couple weeks prior. They all showed up, and I love coaching new shooters. I had a blast, they had a blast, and I believe all of them are still in the sport. They came out with the right mindset, stuff they already owned. Some of them have progressed more, some of them just kept wanting to have fun shooting what they owned.” 

8:21 The Importance of Growing the Sport

Daniel brings up something that he has seen in every competition he’s ever shot in, as well as in some of the video that Steve and Josh broght back from the recent competition. It’s that the people involved unanimously prioritize growing the sport. They want to be their best and are disciplined with their training. 

Some of the people at the matches spend a crazy amount of money and/or have lots of sponsors from the industry. And there’s the other side of the spectrum too, with competitors who don’t have very much but they do what they can with what they’ve got. And, if a new person shows up, they’re dedicated to helping them grow in it. Gear and guns are loaned out, sometimes even letting someone use better ammo. It’s people taking care of and teaching each other.

He remembers when he used to shoot in service rifle matches, people were handing him things that he didn’t have that they though he’d need. “They thought it was awesome that somebody that wasn’t 60 years old was out there shooting in an NRA service rifle match. I had the same experiences with IDPA and USPSA, where everybody’s just really trying to help each other out.”

Steve follows up by saying that when he got into competitive shooting a little over a decade ago, there was a big age disparity among the shooters.

“When I got into it I was in my mid-twenties and there were very few people in my age group.  The next closest person would be fifteen to twenty years older than I was. So I think that they saw the young shooter getting into the sport was ambitious, and they liked that the sport was going to carry on. There’s a lot of tradition to it. We talk about the second amendment. We all know that we all need everyone in the community and we need the younger generations to continue going forward. And comraderie is really the only way to do it.”

Josh agrees, saying that more participation benefits everyone involved.

“The more people that are into this, the more companies that are going to come out, the more existing companies that are going to roll out better products. They’re going to compete. Prices are going to get better so that barrier to entry isnt so high.”

Not only that, there’s the understanding that there’s that many more people out there who are familiar, comfortable, and trained how to effectively engage targets at long range.

He remembers the first match he ever shot. At the time he was a trained army sniper. 

“I showed up open-minded and I’ll tell you, it’s humbling to get circles run around you by a dentist. I realized, hey, there’s so much more to this to learn that you don’t necessarily get, even from a professional background in the military and law enforcement. There’s guys out there who, like Steve said, will put 18,000 rounds downrange in a year because they have the time and the income to do it.”

He points out that there are many budget and time constraints in the military or in law enforcement, that you don’t necessarily get to do that all the time. “So, these guys seem more than willing to help you out, let you use gear, make suggestions. But the most important thing is to just show up, get out there, give it a shot.”

13:33 Making Progress

Daniel says that like many things in life, be it a training course, reading (even academic) medical/trauma stuff, and even video games, he wants to learn. He likes to measure himself and see that he’s getting better at something. This is very easy to measure, as in, “Did I hit or miss?” or “How many rounds did it take me to get on?”

He wonders if maybe the reason for such a level of camaraderie in the shooting sports is that at the end of the match, everybody is still there because of the Second Amendment, the right to keep and bear arms, and the desire to get a little more well-regulated, keeping themselves and each other to a high standard. 

Steve talks about helping the newcomers, “When it comes to a lot of the shooting sports, it does have a high cost of entry, especially if you want to take it seriously. And in my situation, I didn’t have a mentor getting into the precision rifle and I learned a lot of things the expensive way. And I want people to learn through my mistakes. And hopefully, they can pay it forward when they reach a higher level.”

Daniel says that he sees a lot of Precision Rifle shooters on social media and it’s easy to distinguish between trainer influencers and competitor influencers. It’s easy to see the ones who enjoy teaching others and are happy when a new person shows up. They just love coaching new shooters and are able to help them take a faster path so they can skill all the stuff that sucked, cost too much time, money, ore energy. Those folks have a servant’s heart. 

“JJ Racaza was on the podcast recently, to me he’s one of those guys. He’s amazing. Well disciplined shooter and practicer of his craft but he is just genuinely trying to pass along information…He’s trying to transfer knowledge in almost everything he does out there. And those kind of people are great for growing those sports.” much.

Steve has a quick story about JJ, “The first USPSA match I ever showed up to, I was a young kid standing in the corner because I didn’t know anyone and I was 20 years younger than everyone else, with the exception of JJ. He saw nobody was talking to me and I didn’t know what I was doing and I looked like a nervous, scared little cat. He walked over and started a conversation with me becuase he knew that, and he wanted to make sure my first time was a good experience.”

Daniel says, “That’s awesome. That’s exactly how I see JJ.”

17:22 What was Josh’s first competition?

It was after he had just gotten back from Afghanistan, summer of 2018. It was a club match near Austin that his Dad invited him to. 

“I came out and it was just amazing. Super fun. Great course of fire, super-nice guys. I was in a squad with what I could tell were really experienced guys. I knew that because everyone was wearing jerseys with a hundred sponsors on it. It was a little nerve-wracking but every one of them was just super-cool, super-humble. Every one of them was offering me to try out their rifle, see what I liked and what I didn’t like. It was a great experience, that’s all it took for me.”

He was stationed in Alaska so after that match, he went back and quickly got involved with the Precision Rifle guys up there. “With the population of Alaska, everyone who’s into this particular sport — every one of them knows each other up there. It’s a very tight-knit group. They welcomed me in and the next thing you know I was going to every club match they put on every month, met some really great people. And it’s just gone on from there.”

He also says, “When it comes down to it, at the very least, you’re likely to meet some good, like-minded individuals who you can bond with, share stuff with, share knowledge, bounce ideas off each other that you might not otherwise meet in your day-to-day life. 

21:31 Finding a Shooting Buddy

Sometimes new shooters will come to a firearms class who don’t have a range buddy. He places quite a bit of importance on that, because like-minded friends can help you get better at shooting, help you be a more responsible owner of defensive firearms, and basically help you grow through shared experiences and conversation.

He says, “Nobody’s ever left a class without having somebody to shoot with afterward, because they make multiple friends there that they can go shoot with, go to the range, train with, whatever, just hang out, that are like-minded, they have the same goals.”

It’s the same thing with the competition. You cannot go to a competition and not find some new people to go out and practice with.

Josh says that every time he goes to shoot, it seems like he meets someone new, “…and like I said, my time up there in Alaska, one of the guys that I ended up meeting up there became one of my best friends. He’s a great mentor. To this day I talk to him almost every single day, and it’s not all to do with guns. He gives me a lot of guidance in my professional life, dealing with personal stuff, so you know, guns aside, generally, the type of people who engage in this sort of activity are just wholesome, good, salt of the earth type people. So even if guns don’t end up being a passion of yours, at the very least, its just good people.”

23:30 What’s the bare minimum that somebody needs to go sign up and jump into a Precision Rifle Match?

Steve says it takes enough money to enter the match and find your local club’s Facebook page. “Every state has a regional club page. Go on there and say you want to try it out but you don’t have anything. You’d be surprised how many people throw things at you for you to shoot your match. So if you show up with the match fee and an open mind, you’re going to be able to shoot that match.”

24:06 What are the regulations as far as which firearms are allowed?

Steve says that the clubs can have their own rules, but generally, as the sport goes, nothing bigger than 300 Win Mag. “Inside of that, you could show up with a .223 and there’s a division specifically for it. So they could run an AR, there’s even a gas-gun division, so if you wanted to run a .223 in an AR you could still have a great time.”

Josh mentions that more and more directors, as time goes on, have dedicated loaner rifles for people to use. “They may say to just bring some ammo and they have a rifle for you to shoot that whole match just so you can try and get a feel for it.” 

25:54 What keeps you going back to Precision Rifle competitions? 

Steve says he’s always trying to become better than he was before. Why does he want to be a better shooter?

“I think there’s a lot of reasons a lot of us want to be better shooters. For me, I want to be the best all-around shooter that I can possibly be. Who knows what’s going to happen in future times I just want to have the discipline, whether its in shooting or not. To be able to sit there and have the patience to be able to read winds, and do all that — it’s a mental mindset and a mental discipline that you need to maintain. You could carry that through all aspects, through your professional life, your hobbies, your home life. Discipline, passion, a good work ethic, will get you through a lot.” 

27:02 Misconceptions about Precision Rifle Shooting

Daniel goes back to the story Josh told about getting his butt whipped by a dentist, which points to a common misconception that you have to be a sniper to be able to compete in Precision Rifle. It’s not true at all. But what did Josh learn from that that he was able to take back?

“What a lot of guys don’t realize is that, in general, the civilian world is leaps and bounds ahead of, at least, conventional military forces when it comes to techniques, tactics, procedures, especially gear. The acquisitions process in the military is slow, painful. There’s so much stuff out there that’s being developed at light speed compared to the military counterparts. As an example… the exposure to positional stuff.

“You’re at the schoolhouse. You put a lot of rounds downrange, but I’ll be the first to tell you, the majority of it is off your belly, in the prone, which, when you’ve done it once, you’ve done it a thousand times. If you have good fundamentals, it’s pretty hard to mess up.

“But the positional stuff, shooting off unsteady platforms, balancing your rifle, different grips, different ways to position your body — it’s very practical and that’s the thing a lot of guys don’t understand. Even professionally trained snipers, when it comes down to it, the odds that you’ll be shooting off your belly, or in the prone are going to be pretty slim.”

Daniel comments, “Especially for the urban environments that we’ve been in for a while?”

Steve asks, “How many times do they let you take that rifle home so you can dry fire?”

Josh says, “That’s another thing, it’s not like you’re bringing your rifle home every night. It gets locked up in the arms room and it’s a process to get it back out. Getting to practice as a civilian, even if you want to go as far as to pattern your rifle up after what you’re issued in the military, it’s so beneficial, especially with the positional stuff.

“The other thing is the focus on maintaining a high likelihood of hit, high-hit percentage while doing it as quickly as possible. There is some of that in the schoolhouse environment, but these guys just take it to the next level at these competitions, because that’s what gets them the points, that’s what gets them the wins, that’s what gets them rank. So they just become incredibly efficient at finding out the quickest way to engage targets at range, which is just such a huge part of the sniper’s job.”

He says that gear is another big issue. 

“Before I shot my first match, my sand sock was a GI issued sock filled with airsoft bbs with a zip-tie around it. It got the job done, but I legitimately did not know any better, that there was stuff that was so much more suited for that.”

Daniel says that when he was at DM school, he was told to have his sand sock the next day. So he went to the grocery store, bought a little bag of dried beans, put them in a sock, and sewed it together.

“Yeah, that’s like field-craft 101,” Josh says, “That’s what they teach you, it’s cheap, it’s pretty effective, and if it goes down on you, it’s not that big of a deal. But now, there’s just so much better stuff out there. It’s the kind of stuff you get exposed to when you take a step out of your comfort zone and go get your butt whooped by a dentist or a mechanic.

“You see this type of stuff and it really does worlds for you. I can’t tell you how many sniper buddies I have in the army that didn’t think it was necessary, they thought they were the pinnacle of what a long-range shooter should be and then when I finally did convince them to go, it really opened their eyes and pointed out some big flaws.

32:10 What are some of the most important things you’ve learned from Precision Rifle shooting?

Daniel says that there have been times when he learned something from a class when he was off-duty, that he knew he had to take back to teach his guys. 

“I’ve done some things when I went to some classes when I was off duty, and I went back the next week and was like, I’ve got to teach my people this This is a big deal. This is something that I’ve been missing in what I’ve been teaching them, and I need to get them caught up because this is huge!”

Josh says the biggest thing has been placing a greater focus on positional stuff.

“So unlike in a military setting, in a competition setting it’s all known distances, so one of the harder parts of your job as a military sniper is taken out. That leaves the positional stuff, and, that was the main thing I took away.

“In these competitions or at least the ones that I’ve done, a prone shot is actually pretty rare. Most of it is some weird, awkward position, and to me it’s so much more realistic as far as what you can expect on a modern battlefield… for all you know you could be stacking up boughs on the floor to get you tall enough to look through the loophole. Or it could be the opposite. You could be crouching lower than you normally would, even in the prone. You could have to bend over a limb or a branch. So it’s just getting comfortable at identifying the most stable way to take uncomfortable shots. That would be the biggest takeaway I took from these competitions, and as soon as I got back to my section, that was one of the main things I focused on.”

33:59 Where can people go to check out PRS and get started?

PRS has its own website precisionrifleseries.com.

However, there’s a benefit to finding them on Facebook because most of the big shooters are engaged in the group and they’ll answer any questions you have. You’ll know you’re getting good knowledge from reputable people because you can research their names and you can even see their scores.

34:37 What advice does Josh have for people who want to pick up Precision Rifle shooting?

“My main advice would be to just try it. As just mentioned your easiest access is going to be social media. It doesn’t take long at all to locate your local groups. Get them to accept your request for invitation into those groups and then just start asking questions. Before you know it you’ll have an address, a time, and the minimum you need to show up with and I’m sure everyone that shows up will get you taken care of from there as far as gear.

“But honestly, gear is the last thing you should be concerned about until you do it a time or two. You may have to bring ammo, but outside of that just show up. If you’re curious, find some people, network with them, talk to them, ask all the questions you want. And then, just find the time, set it aside, go do it.”

This week, the Mag Life Podcast is excited to bring on Jimmy Rodriguez of the Average Joes Firearms Training group! Jimmy and his AJ crew have dedicated their services and time to providing the most accessible firearms training to new and experienced shooters alike. Average Joes seeks to build strong local communities of responsible and competent gun owners.

Jimmy joins Daniel Shaw as they discuss the story behind Average Joes, the importance of encouraging beginners to train, changing the current gun culture, and preparing for future generations.

https://media.blubrry.com/gunfightercast/content.blubrry.com/gunfightercast/194-Jimmy_Rodriguez_Average_Joes.mp3

Host: Daniel Shaw

Guest: Jimmy Rodriguez

Introduction/Timeline: Eric Huh

00:39 What is Average Joes Firearms Training? Who is it for?

Daniel starts it off by asking Jimmy what Average Joes is all about. The concept behind Average Joes Firearms Training is centered on simply getting average law-abiding gun owners to go out there and train. As any trainer knows, the act of even getting people out to the range can be quite the task. Often times it’s flat-out intimidating for new shooters to train, whether it be ammo costs, not knowing where to start, or not wanting to appear foolish. Average Joes is about bridging that gap between new and experienced shooters.

One of the major ways in which they do so is by dismantling the barriers to entry. Jimmy sets up Average Joes range days to be financially affordable to the average gun owner and does not harp on round count requirements. The range sessions are set up to maximize the capabilities of the attendees, so often times they will shoot whatever people can afford at the time. Additionally, range sessions are organized around the area code of those attending so that Average Joes can focus on building local communities of gun owners who want to train together. In this way, a range day is not simply a “meet and forget” event, but rather a starting point to connect to other like-minded people who encourage training long term.

At its core, Average Joes Firearms Training is about instilling the fundamentals for students and always building upon them. Even when more advanced drills or techniques come into play, the fundamentals are never replaced or forgotten about.

“We don’t ever feel like you move on from the fundamentals. You’re just refining them and getting better at them. So that’s really all it is, it’s just fundamental training… And because we have different instructors, every range day is different. What you’re learning on pistol day is gonna be different from the last range day and the one before that because the instructors in there are different.”

By making every range day a unique experience, Average Joes can maintain interest among participants while also offering new valuable skillsets each time. The instructors come from a wide variety of backgrounds including military special operations, law enforcement, competitive shooting, or just plain civilian.

06:01 Training Goals and Instagram Shooters

Jimmy notes that oftentimes his fellow instructors get asked questions regarding very minor details about training techniques. Ultimately, they end up asking students, “What are you training for?” Jimmy has observed that it is very easy for new shooters to get swept up in the social media fervor of flashy range theatrics. Your individual day-to-day requirements do not necessarily line up with the latest, trendiest Instagram reel footage.

“What are you ultimately training for? Is your sub-second draw really going to make a difference in the real world?… Is doing a reload this way versus this way really going to make a difference?… If you’re training specifically just to go fast and look cool on Instagram? Then yes, go that way, if that’s what you’re training for. But just be realistic about what it is you’re training for and be honest with yourself.”

Daniel asks Jimmy, what has he observed people have been doing on social media in regards to training footage. Jimmy noticed that while most shooters on Instagram know to say the right things, they are overwhelmingly leaning towards looking flashy for the camera. And this is a byproduct of social media’s influence in the training world. Most people are simply regurgitating what they perceive to be the trendiest thing to do from their newsfeeds. Average Joes is hoping to counter this culture by reinstating actual productive range sessions that focus on proven methods.

On the whole, both Daniel and Jimmy agree that sheer popularity of social media firearm content has had a positive effect for the 2nd Amendment. Every cool gun pic or training footage or funny meme post helps normalize the use and practice of firearms. Every time someone misuses a gun from something careless such as a negligent discharge, that turns people away from the idea of gun ownership. The more helpful information and inclusive attitudes that can be promoted, the better.

13:24 Becoming an Average Joe

In terms of the actual structure of Average Joes, Jimmy explains outside of the 10 instructors, there is no real “membership” process. To be an Average Joe, just be an average joe! Pay for the range fees and show up to train. Jimmy further elaborates, saying a new shooter isn’t going to be asking a Youtube influencer, rather they will seek advice from someone they trust. Oftentimes, that can come in the form of a neighbor, a friend, a family member, and the like. This plays back to the mission of Average Joes, which is to build a community of competent shooters who can then take this knowledge back to the people closest to them.

Average Joes is based out of Dallas, Texas, but they do travel across the country to help build communities of firearm trainers. Together, they’ve been to Arizona, San Antonio, Seattle, Las Vegas, Mississippi, and Miami. The mindset for doing range days in other states is the same as it is for their local area: to build communities.

“Getting all of these range days going across the US or supporting other range days that we’re going [to]… is where we can go and support [communities], help them grow it, help them develop, answer any questions they may have… maybe collaborate together to make things better.

And then at the end of the day, when we leave, that community is still strong because the leaders of that community are still there.”

The importance of building up local leaders cannot be understated. Those who are from that area are the ones that understand the people’s needs, the local gun ranges, the availability of resources, the local trainers, and the local competitions.

The outreach of Average Joes has even extended past the US border. Their range day footage is covered online with the addition of occasional shooting challenges. Jimmy reveals they’ve had people from the Middle East, Europe, and South America participate in these online challenges.

18:21 The Future of Average Joes

As far as what the future holds for Average Joes, Jimmy is seeking to refine what the group already does so well. For 2022, there will be 4 range dates that have already been locked in. Range days will have vendors to sponsor the events by offering firearm demos and giveaways of high-end products that most new shooters would not have access to. Attendees can also expect more quantity of fundamental courses such as pistol and carbine as well as special guest instructors.

22:24 Expectations for an Average Joes Range Day

Daniel asks on behalf of the listeners, what should one expect coming into an Average Joes range event? Jimmy explains, as before, the cost will be around $30 with some minor charges. This would be just enough to cover the range fee and other equipment they may require. Nothing here is really pocketed as profit on their end. For actual courses, these will be around $200 for full-length, 8-hour courses. Any way you slice it, these are drastically affordable options for firearms training.

23:40 What are common misconceptions that prevent new shooters from training?

During much of Daniel’s time as a trainer, he’s encountered a wide variety of excuses or perceived barriers to training that many new gun owners come up with that halts their education. He asks Jimmy if he’s seen similar instances.

“[New shooters] feel like there’s a sort of prerequisite if you will. And they feel like they don’t meet that criteria or that level of proficiency to go to a course. They feel like they have to be ‘good’ enough to go to a course… Well hey, the course exists because you’re not good enough, right? That’s the idea. Like, it’s to get you there. That’s the whole purpose of the course… Don’t wait ‘til tomorrow to start what you could start today.”

27:11 Why do you do this?

Daniel asks Jimmy why he does the Average Joes training project. As made clear, he does not serve to make any significant profit gains from this work. Jimmy replies, “For my son.” He explains that while many of us do things to make our current lives easier, it is ultimately what we do after our existence on this Earth that matters the most. The legacy of ensuring future generations are made safer and stronger is the “why” we get up in the mornings.

Jimmy and Daniel have both traveled to third-world countries and have seen the worst in humanity. Witnessing truly horrific circumstances that force people to fend for themselves. One day that will come to America as no civilization ever lasts forever. It is that rationale that motivates Jimmy to continue to provide accessible training options for his fellow Americans. Freedom is always on a fragile line, where any major catastrophe could take it away. Preparedness is the only thing that will ensure your survival after the fact.

Daniel asks what people out there can do to help Average Joes grow. Jimmy simply states people just need to go out there and train. By doing so, they can help spread the good message of the 2nd Amendment and help encourage the culture of training.

Visit their website.

On this week’s episode of The Mag Life Podcast, we have none other than one of the most energetic and entertaining firearms content creators out there, Dustin Ellermann. Better known as Top Shot Dustin, he is the winner ofthe third season of History Channel’s Top Shot, an incredibly popular Youtuber, a firearms enthusiast, writer, and youth mentor.

Dustin joins Daniel as they cover the firearms influencer space, social media censorship of the 2nd Amendment, becoming an entertainer, training, and dealing with negativity.

https://media.blubrry.com/gunfightercast/content.blubrry.com/gunfightercast/192-Top_Shot_Dustin.mp3

Host: Daniel Shaw

Guest: Dustin Ellermann

Introduction/Timeline: Eric Huh

00:24 How did you get into guns? What led to you going into Top Shot and Youtube?

Daniel starts off by asking Dustin how he got into firearms in the first place and what eventually led him going into entertainment content creation. Dustin explains that he was always fascinated by guns as a child, having been raised on The Gospel Bill Show and obsessing over the featured cowboy western aesthetic pearl gripped revolvers. Eventually a casting call came out for History  Channel’s Top Shot, looking for people into competitive shooting. The show offered an opportunity to use iconic historical firearms. For Dustin, this was a chance to live out his boyhood dreams of shooting guns for free. He had no real intention to become famous or a top competitor, Dustin simply saw the show as “Disneyland with guns.”

06:54 After Top Shot and Becoming a Youtuber

Dustin recalls how he had no grand plans after his time on Top Shot — especially no intention of becoming a prolific YouTuber. He was only concerned with completing each new challenge on the show and avoiding elimination. In his day to day life, Dustin and his family run a children’s camp for young marksmen looking to improve their skills and build character. His priority has always been to build a foundation for future competitive shooters and gun enthusiasts above all else. Upon requests to make videos, Dustin found that Youtube content creation allowed him to take his love for shooting recreationally. Through the YouTube platform, he has been able to teach new shooters, and express his high-energy personality to new heights. Also, the ability to make some money on the side from the viewership certainly didn’t hurt.

09:15 Marksmanship Camp

Daniel inquires further about Dustin’s Marksmanship Camp for the youth. The Ellerman family has owned the camp since Dustin was 13. By the time he was a young adult, Dustin knew he wanted to commit his life to firearms at some capacity. He found was that by setting up a camp in which he had total control of the grounds, the struction and atmosphere allowed him complete freedom in running a firearms training facility. Children ages 6-12 come in large groups, often with their church affiliation, with attendance averaging 2,000 per summer.

Dustin structures his camp programs to be both fun and educational for not only children, but their families as well. In his Marksmanship Camp, Dustin essentially created Top Shot — but for kids,  where various firearms and challenges are set up in a very accessible manner.

For example, Dustin will setup user-friendly firearm builds such as CMMG Banshees SBRs in .22LR with suppressors, making shooting that much more enjoyable. Dustin observes that the kids shoot better because there is no fear of the muzzle flash, recoil, or noise.

Without a doubt, Dustin believes his camp program is the perfect family bonding experience for those who attend. Eventually, Dustin would love to put together an adult-centric version of his camp. Ideally, it would include bigger caliber guns and grander challenges.

16:37 The Power and Censorship of Social Media Firearms Content

Dustin describes the continuing frustration he has for Facebook’s utterly ridiculous censorship standards for firearms content creators. It is nothing short of an attack on 2nd Amendment advocates and influencers, as major platforms such as Facebook search for anything that can be used as an excuse to restrict content or even wholesale remove pages.

“They actually deleted my page. Just, you know, the normal, ‘Oh you’re against our community guidelines!’ ‘Ok, what post?’ A link on my page for a flash light sale! But there’s a pistol in it, so they just deleted my page… What surprised me was they admitted, ‘We are limiting your reach on your page.’ I was getting close a million followers [and now people] can’t even find me… I couldn’t even find my own videos!”

Dustin also notes how the settings on Facebook basically give each page a strike system, where each continued violation accumulates and only serves to further harm the traffic and reach of the page to users. There is no denying how vital social media is to the firearm industry business owners and content creators like Dustin. As such, it is devastating to have it suddenly cut off.

Daniel also notes that despite not being very active on his own Facebook page, just by making one profound post on the situation in Afghanistan, he suddenly garnered an enormous uptick in social media engagement. Dustin adds that the major value of social media platforms is not just to simply make money but to also spread the pro-gun message to everyone. Gun influencers like Dustin do a fantastic job of humanizing gun owners to a wider audience, showing that guns can be safe and fun. Clearly, the community and it’s voices are present on social media but big tech executives and owners continue to stifle them.

27:07 Training Classes

Daniel inquiries about future projects or initiatives for the Top Shot Dustin brand. Dustin replies that there will be more tree chopping videos, of course, but he also intends to take more training classes. Impressively, even the winner of Top Shot continues to seek training and refinements of his skills. Daniel notes how often he hears the tired excuse of people claiming they don’t need further training because their family member’s friend was once in the Army and that’s all the advice they needed.

“Ten years ago, that’s when Top Shot was… and oh ok, what I’ve been doing… and winning with for ten years, we can still improve and fix… We are always learning; the whole industry is always finding better ways to do things.”

Daniel agrees wholeheartedly, further adding that there are different levels to skill improvement, depending on the experience level of the individual. New shooters with about 20 minutes of instruction will see an immense increase in improvement in terms of their accuracy, timing, and confidence. With more experienced shooters like Dustin, what aspects they do improve upon will be minute and harder to see. But the point still stands, everyone, no matter the skill level, can still improve that much more.

34:55 Everyday Carry Guns and Working with Gun Manufacturers

Daniel asks Dustin he carries everyday? Dustin reveals he carried the Springfield Hellcat as part of his summer EDC loadout. He enjoys the micro-compact series of 9mm handguns that can hold a sizable amount of rounds per magazine. The trigger he felt was lacking and had virtually no wall but could still manage very impressive groupings with it. Additionally, it has a Shield red dot sight that came with the gun. More recently, Dustin has been carrying the Walther PPS M2 and very much enjoys the trigger.

Daniel recalls having written a review for the Springfield Hellcat and did not hate the experience of shooting it. He found the gun overall to be very easy to shoot, but it did have a sluggish trigger pull and the slide serrations were too smooth to the point where racking it became an issue if his hands were sweaty. He also recommends the Sig P365 series of the same category. Dustin experienced issues with the earlier models of the Sig but has found he is not against trying it again.

Both Daniel and Dustin have worked extensively with firearms manufacturers in the realm of product reviews. They note how certain companies are simply thankful for the positive press and sales that a review article or piece of content generates on their behalf, offering the product for free as a show of good faith. Other companies, however, always demand back their product or charge prices that are even higher than wholesale.

Daniel changes the topic towards favorite rifle and carbine builds. Dustin’s first thought flashed to the Larue Tactical OBR in 7.62 which was what he used on Top Shot and was in fact given to him after the season’s conclusion. Dustin personally attests to the sheer durability of the Larue rifle. Once, he dumped 1,000 rounds back to back and only after a short cool-down period, saw his groupings resume to an 0.8 in group at 100 yards.

42:13 Advice for Aspiring Gun YouTubers

Daniel ponders his experiences with YouTube content and the rise of new firearms influencers on the platform. He has observed and dealt with all manners of unsafe firearms content creators who, for the sake of increasing views, attempt to do more than they understand at the range. He also sees generally ignorant statements in the comments of his videos. Daniel asks Dustin for advice for aspiring YouTubers looking to make their way in the firearms space.

Dustin deals with negativity in his comments section on a regular basis. His advice is to either ignore them completely or have fun with the haters. His channel is family-friendly so Dustin sets his comments settings to put any comment with profanity in it under “requires approval” folder, which in turn automatically rids of the majority of negative comments. For commenters that continue to attack Dustin, he’ll take screenshots of their comments and publicly post them for this audience to make fun of. Essentially, he turns the negativity into a fun and engaging experience for his fans.

To learn more about Dustin Ellermann,

Articles/Show notes by Eric Huh

The Mag Life Podcast is honored to have Paul Capdepon of Grey Man Tactical on the show. For those unaware, Grey Man Tactical is a firearms accessories company that specializes in Rigid MOLLE Panel systems that allow users to load firearms and other equipment onto small but durable polymer frames. You may have seen these commonly used on vehicle seats or backpacks for the everyday armed citizen or law enforcement officers.

This week, Daniel discusses with Paul the details of how the company came to be, how his experiences brought him to the firearms industry, and the latest product offerings from Grey Man Tactical.

https://media.blubrry.com/gunfightercast/content.blubrry.com/gunfightercast/190-Grey_Man_Tactical_Purpose_Built_Solutions.mp3

Host: Daniel Shaw

Guest: Paul Capdepon

Introduction/Timeline: Eric Huh

01:20 How did you start your company?

Daniel asks Paul what inspired him to start Grey Man Tactical. Paul explains he initially got his start in the oil industry in 2012, where he spent much of his time working with complex plastic materials. As with many people who eventually work in firearms, Paul spent much of his free time shooting for sport. It dawned on him that during his range trips, Paul was actively seeking a solution that would condense his gear loadout and lighten the weight. Leveraging his experience in the oil industry, Paul taught himself to build polymer-based attachment systems for the purpose of storing firearms, magazines, and tools in backpacks and inside vehicles.

Paul married his passion for design with his natural inclination toward hands-on building. In his previous position as a project manager, he worked specifically with composites such as carbon fiber, fiberglass, and polymer applications. This naturally offered Paul a unique insight into how to repurpose these same materials to solve common issues that plague the gun world. Eventually, this journey would lead to the formation of Grey Man Tactical. As the years went by, Paul and his team have made constant improvements to the materials of their products in direct response to customer feedback.

05:06 Designing Products with a Purpose

Like any company worth their salt, every product design from Grey Man Tactical was created with a specific purpose in mind. In one of their more popular product lines, the vehicle seat racks have been invaluable in saving space, increasing storage capacity, and organizing tools for

Paul and his team initially used HDPE polymer in their seat back covers which were more rigid in comparison, but still tended to bow out under immense weight. Eventually, Grey Man Tactical shifted to glass-reinforced polymer and aluminum seatback covers which made them strong enough to hold loaded rifles and additional gear weight.

Daniel notes and admires that Paul, while not a “high speed, low drag” military vet, is simply just an everyday man who recognized a problem and developed an immediate solution.

12:59 Who are your customers? How is the end-user applying Grey Man Tactical products?

Daniel asks Paul that aside from the normal armed citizen, what other customers are using Grey Man Tactical products and how are they using them? He reveals that law enforcement officers make up another significant portion of their end-user base but not the ones we typically think

“What we find is that a lot of the big users for us isn’t necessarily the typical [uniformed] officer… Because they have different weapon rack systems in the standard patrol vehicle. But more of the use of ours tends to be is the undercover units or the unmarked cars, things like that… They’re going after drug dealers and things like that, [so] they change out their vehicles so that they aren’t always in the same one.”

Grey Man Tactical seat back covers are highly adaptable while still being durable. There are no screws that force the cover to be married to a seat, the covers can be quickly changed out even with entire rifles attached. These forward-thinking designs make Grey Man ideal for low-profile operations.

16:11 Are there custom or tailored options?

Daniel speculates that customers must have all kinds of specific needs from Grey Man products and asks Paul if they offer custom solutions upon requests. While Grey Man Tactical does not necessarily make custom-tailored products for individual customers, they do have a specific link for suggestions from their customers. What is being offered are preconfigured kits that take the base seatback organizer covers and load them with equipment that is catered towards a specific mission.

As of now, Grey Man offers a premade medical kit vehicle seatback loadout package for those prioritizing to handle emergency situations. More configurations are being developed that will each tackle different specific market demands such as weapon rack and overland packages.

21:15 Other Grey Man Tactical products

Paul highlights other products offered by Grey Man, namely the new Stealth 20L RMP Backpack Advantage. This was developed in direct response to Paul’s own needs for an easily accessible, low-pro everyday carry backpack. The Stealth 20L offers a compartment that’s tailor-made for Grey Man’s RMP mounting panels for rapid access to a concealed carry gun as well as accommodating adequate space for general storage.

Visit their website. https://greymantactical.com

Article/Show notes by Eric Huh