Maxwell opens by explaining the psychology behind quiz marketing's superior performance, revealing that personalized experiences combined with ego psychology—people's natural curiosity about themselves—creates a powerful conversion mechanism. He breaks down ScoreApp's comprehensive support philosophy that goes far beyond typical SaaS offerings, including live webinars, one-on-one calls, marketplace partnerships, and even publishing bestselling books on their methodology.

We explore Maxwell's counterintuitive approach to organic growth, where ScoreApp completely eliminated paid advertising after four years when costs became prohibitive and effectiveness declined. Instead, they focused on SEO, weekly YouTube videos, podcasts, and face-to-face customer events in London, maintaining the same customer quality while reducing acquisition costs. Maxwell emphasizes the importance of absorbing customer feedback "like a sponge" rather than building products in isolation.

The conversation also covers Maxwell's philosophy that 95% of business problems stem from having the wrong people in wrong positions. He shares his approach to building teams of A-players who naturally elevate each other's performance, comparing it to how Michael Jordan made any basketball team better simply through his presence and high standards. Maxwell also discusses his market-driven product development approach, where co-founder Daniel messaged 3,000 people before launching to gather data on what shape the product should take.

Whether you're a B2B marketer looking to crack personalization at scale, a founder trying to build high-performing teams, or a growth leader seeking organic acquisition strategies, this episode offers practical frameworks and insights you can implement immediately.

Enjoy!

• Maxwell on LinkedIn
• ScoreApp
• Free ScoreApp Book

• 00:00 Introduction and Maxwell’s background
• 03:00 The purpose of marketing beyond driving sales
• 04:00 ScoreApp’s “forcing clients to be successful” philosophy
• 06:00 How Maxwell influences messaging as CRO
• 09:00 The importance of right people in right positions
• 12:00 What marketing and sales need to agree on
• 14:00 Introduction to scorecard/quiz marketing
• 18:00 Most effective use cases for quiz marketing
• 20:00 Quiz vs traditional call-to-action strategies
• 22:00 Writing effective quiz questions and AI assistance
• 24:00 ScoreApp’s visitor-to-lead conversion strategies
• 27:00 Quiz marketing’s impact on conversion rates (30% vs 10-15%)
• 29:00 Common lead magnet mistakes companies make
• 31:00 Scaling to 7,000+ subscribers and organic growth
• 33:00 Using personalization and customer data insights
• 35:00 The power of face-to-face customer feedback
• 37:00 Insights from customer behavior analysis
• 40:00 Why ScoreApp stopped paying for advertising
• 42:00 Role of influencer marketing in their strategy
• 44:00 Maxwell’s learning resources and investment approach

Learn more at https://conversionalchemy.net/

Connect with Chris https://linktr.ee/conversionalchemy

Throughout our conversation, Ronnie emphasizes the importance of treating content as a product rather than just a marketing activity. He explains his three core principles for successful content creation: content is a product, content is an experience, and content is an ecosystem. We explore how these principles can help B2B marketers create more effective content strategies that connect with their audience.

Ronnie also shares his insights on the critical concept of the "day one list" - the pre-existing shortlist of solutions that B2B buyers already have in mind before they even begin their formal buying journey. He explains why getting on this list is crucial, as research shows buyers choose from this list 80% of the time.

We discuss the relationship between mindshare and attention, with Ronnie breaking down the four stages of attention: peak, merit, reward, and convert. He challenges the notion that mindshare and attention are separate concepts, arguing that mindshare is simply sustained attention over time.

Whether you're a content marketer, strategist, or SaaS leader looking to build a more effective content engine, this episode offers valuable insights on creating content that resonates with your audience and drives business results.

Enjoy!

• Ronnie on LinkedIn
• Neutral Ground Labs website

• 02:29 Using the Hero's Journey in B2B Marketing
• 04:04 Creating Tension in B2B Storytelling
• 06:00 Treating Content as a Flight Simulator for Customers
• 08:59 Ronnie's Background in Media and Film
• 13:00 From Commodified Content to Strategic Media
• 17:58 Ronnie's Unique Research Methodology
• 21:21 Understanding the Day One List in B2B Buying
• 24:25 Capturing Trigger Events in Your Content Strategy
• 27:28 The Marketing Marshmallow Test: Balancing Short and Long-Term Results
• 33:34 The Difference Between Mindshare and Attention
• 39:00 Why B2B Marketers Should Think Like Broadcasters
• 43:00 Three Core Principles for Successful Content Creation
• 45:00 Ronnie's Upcoming Book on Brand to Demand Marketing

Learn more at https://conversionalchemy.net/

Connect with Chris https://linktr.ee/conversionalchemy

We begin by exploring the critical difference between positioning and messaging, with Vassi explaining how positioning focuses on your place in the market while messaging determines what you actually say to your audience. She walks us through her comprehensive messaging framework that helps companies articulate their value pillars in ways that resonate with different customer personas.

Vassi shares her methodical approach to customer research, emphasizing the importance of focusing on past experiences rather than opinions to uncover genuine insights. She provides practical strategies for extracting valuable information from internal teams, particularly sales professionals who often hold the keys to understanding customer perspectives in B2B environments.

We also discuss the challenges of implementing messaging frameworks across organizations and how to ensure adoption through proper documentation, training, and follow-up processes. Vassi reveals her approach to using AI tools like ChatGPT and Claude to maintain consistent brand voice, including practical tips for creating prompt libraries that teams can use to generate cohesive content.

Whether you're a SaaS marketer, content strategist, or brand manager, this episode offers actionable insights to help you develop messaging that truly connects with your target audience and drives results.

Enjoy!

• Vassilena on LinkedIn
• Marketing Matters Newsletter
• Strategic Content and Messaging Course

• 02:04 Distinguishing Between Positioning and Messaging
• 04:06 Vassilena's Journey from Full-Stack Marketer to Messaging Expert
• 07:29 The Typical Messaging Project Process
• 11:12 Creating an Effective Messaging Framework
• 15:00 Extracting Voice of Customer from Internal Teams
• 17:28 Using Past Experiences to Uncover Customer Truth
• 21:12 The Value of External Consultants in Messaging Projects
• 24:49 Establishing Trust with Technical Teams
• 30:12 Common Implementation Mistakes and How to Avoid Them
• 35:36 Balancing Framework Structure with Persona Flexibility
• 39:24 Leveraging AI for Consistent Brand Voice
• 44:12 Organizing Science Events and Translating Complex Concepts
• 49:36 Vassilena's Content Marketing and Messaging Course

Learn more at https://conversionalchemy.net/

Connect with Chris https://linktr.ee/conversionalchemy

Throughout our conversation, Mike emphasizes that synthetic research should enhance rather than replace traditional customer research. He explains how AI personas can help marketers get out of their own heads and gain valuable insights about their customers' perspectives, especially when testing new ideas or messaging. We also discuss common misconceptions about synthetic research and why some marketers are hesitant to embrace it.

Mike demonstrates how AskRally works through a live demo, showing how you can create detailed personas based on demographic and behavioral data, then ask them questions in a chat interface. We explore how the platform handles bias, ensuring AI personas reflect real-world behaviors rather than idealized responses. Mike also shares examples of how companies are using synthetic research to test ad copy, website messaging, and product features before investing in development or paid advertising.

One of the most interesting aspects we cover is how synthetic research can be integrated into automated workflows, allowing marketers to continuously test and optimize their messaging at scale. Mike shows how AskRally's API can be used with automation tools to create a feedback loop for creative ideas.

Whether you're a marketer looking to test messaging more efficiently or a founder trying to better understand your target audience, this episode offers valuable insights into how synthetic research can complement your existing research methods.

Enjoy!

• Mike on LinkedIn 
• Mike on Twitter
• AskRally's website

• 02:00 Why Traditional Marketers Are Skeptical of Synthetic Research
• 04:04 Best Use Cases for Synthetic Research
• 07:00 The Human-AI Feedback Loop
• 09:00 Using AI to Practice Customer Interviews
• 11:00 Synthetic Research vs. Traditional Market Research
• 14:00 How Rally Helps Performance Marketers Test Ad Creative
• 17:00 The Biggest Misconception About Synthetic Research
• 21:00 Creating AI Personas Based on Your Target Audience (screenshare)
• 26:00 Testing Marketing Messages with AI Personas (screenshare)
• 31:00 Using Images and Video for Synthetic User Testing
• 39:00 Calibrating AI to Match Real-World Human Biases
• 43:00 Automating Research with N8N and Rally's API (screenshare)
• 51:00 How AI Can Help Us Develop Greater Customer Empathy

Learn more at https://conversionalchemy.net/

Connect with Chris https://linktr.ee/conversionalchemy

Throughout our conversation, Maja emphasizes the importance of customer research as the most overlooked aspect of successful go-to-market strategies. She explains why founders often avoid talking to customers and how spending 60% of your time defining and refining your Ideal Customer Profile (ICP) can make all the difference in your success.

We explore Maja's "beachhead strategy" for market segmentation, which focuses on starting with a small market segment that has a burning pain point, reasonable willingness to pay, proximity to your expertise, and the ability to produce case studies for future growth. Maja also shares her framework for creating a differentiated value proposition, especially important in the age of AI.

Maja provides practical advice on testing messaging with early customers, selecting the right channels for your go-to-market approach, and why positioning should come before branding. She outlines seven go-to-market motions and offers a systematic approach to choosing the ones that will work best for your specific situation.

Whether you're a founder, marketer, or product leader, this episode is packed with actionable insights to help you focus your resources where you have the highest chance of winning and give your product the fighting chance it deserves.

Enjoy!

• Maja on LinkedIn
• GTM Strategist website
• GTM Power Hour
• GTM Checklist

• 00:59 The Universal Truth About Go-To-Market Success
• 02:00 Why Companies Avoid Customer Discovery
• 05:58 Making Go-To-Market a Science
• 09:58 The Beachhead Strategy for Market Segmentation
• 13:58 Positioning vs. Branding: What Comes First
• 18:58 Building in Public: Strategic Approaches
• 24:58 Creating a Differentiated Value Proposition
• 31:58 Testing Messaging with Limited Resources
• 35:58 Synthetic Research with AI for Customer Feedback
• 37:58 Selecting the Right Go-To-Market Channels
• 43:58 Cold Outreach and Social Selling Strategies
• 45:58 Top AI Tools for Go-To-Market Strategy

Learn more at https://conversionalchemy.net/

Connect with Chris https://linktr.ee/conversionalchemy

We explore how language models can effectively role-play specific personas with realistic personalities, biases, and decision-making patterns. Hugo explains the technology behind creating diverse synthetic users and why these AI personas can provide valuable product feedback that closely mirrors real human responses.

Hugo shares insights on how their platform handles cognitive biases, emotional reactions, and decision-making processes to create realistic simulations. We discuss the differences between aligned and unaligned models, and how shuffling between different providers helps create more authentic responses that reflect the diversity of human opinions.

The conversation also covers practical applications of synthetic research for message testing, usability testing, and product development. Hugo addresses criticisms of "research without users" and explains why synthetic research can be a powerful complement to traditional user research methods, especially in early stages of product development.

Whether you're a product manager, marketer, or UX researcher, this episode offers valuable insights into how AI is transforming user research and opening new possibilities for testing ideas quickly and efficiently.

Enjoy!

• Hugo on LinkedIn
• Synthetic Users website
• Hugo on Twitter

• 00:00 Introduction to Synthetic Users and AI personas
• 03:00 Hugo's background in psychology and product management
• 06:46 The origin story of Synthetic Users
• 09:30 From academic research to solving participant recruitment problems
• 14:00 How LLMs simulate human decision-making and emotional responses
• 18:30Incorporating cognitive biases and personality traits into AI personas
• 22:45 Creating diversity through aligned and unaligned AI models
• 27:30Comparing different commercial AI models for research
• 30:15Overcoming AI's tendency to please users
• 34:00 Using contextual data to enhance synthetic personas
• 38:00 Future possibilities: AI for website testing and usability research
• 43:00 Addressing criticisms of "research without users"
• 46:00 Using synthetic users to test product naming decisions
• 48:30 The future of synthetic research and product development

Learn more at https://conversionalchemy.net/

Connect with Chris https://linktr.ee/conversionalchemy

Throughout our conversation, Brandon explains how offline media fits into the B2B SaaS ecosystem, particularly at Miro where he helps translate product marketing messaging into effective offline formats like podcast ads and billboards. He emphasizes the importance of simplifying complex messaging for offline channels while maintaining brand consistency across all touchpoints.

We explore the fascinating cultural differences in marketing across European markets, with Brandon sharing how messaging that resonates in the Netherlands might need significant adaptation for more risk-averse markets like Germany. He provides practical insights on how to localize messaging while respecting cultural nuances and business attitudes.

Brandon also breaks down the distinction between brand awareness and performance marketing in offline campaigns, offering a strategic framework for marketers looking to get stakeholder buy-in. His "Everest mentality" approach advocates starting with small, measurable tests before scaling to larger investments - a practical path for B2B companies hesitant about offline channels.

For marketers curious about expanding beyond digital, Brandon makes a compelling case for audio advertising, particularly podcasts, as an underutilized channel where B2B brands can find highly targeted audiences with strong host affinities.

Whether you're a B2B marketer looking to diversify your channels or a SaaS company trying to stand out in a crowded digital landscape, this episode offers valuable insights on incorporating offline media into your marketing strategy.

Enjoy!

• Brandon on LinkedIn
• Email: [email protected]

• 02:44 Brandon’s Journey into Offline Media
• 04:00 Offline Media’s Role at Miro
• 05:50 Addressing Different Decision Makers with Offline Media
• 08:50 Adapting Product Marketing Messaging for Offline Channels
• 10:45 Testing and Measuring Offline Media Effectiveness
• 13:45 Cultural Differences in Marketing Across European Markets
• 17:45 Balancing Brand Awareness vs. Performance in Offline Media
• 20:30 Why B2B SaaS Companies Should Invest in Offline Advertising
• 23:45 Creating Distinctive Messaging in B2B Advertising
• 25:30 Capturing Attention Effectively in Offline Media
• 28:30 The “Everest Mentality” for Gaining Stakeholder Buy-in
• 32:15 Testing Strategies Before Approaching Stakeholders
• 34:45 Trends in Podcast Advertising
• 37:15 Using AI for Marketing Research and Communication
• 38:30 Brandon’s Approach to Learning and Professional Development

Learn more at https://conversionalchemy.net/

Connect with Chris https://linktr.ee/conversionalchemy

We dive into Sendoso's journey from initially targeting sales teams to discovering that marketing leaders were the actual buyers. Kris explains their category naming evolution - from the failed "engagement delivery platform" to the more descriptive and customer-friendly "direct mail and gifting platform" - highlighting the importance of using language your customers already understand.

Kris shares fascinating insights on how companies use strategic gifting to drive remarkable results, including how Gong generated over $30 million in pipeline from sending pinatas and how Gainsight leveraged their CEO's book to create $8 million in pipeline. We discuss the balance between personalization and scale, with Kris explaining their three-part personalization framework: personalizing around the individual, the signal, or the action.

We also explore how Sendoso's messaging evolved from feature-focused to outcome-driven, and how they use data and AI to enhance creativity in gifting strategies. Whether you're a startup founder or marketing leader, this episode offers valuable insights on breaking through the noise in today's crowded digital landscape.

Enjoy!

• Kris on LinkedIn
• Sendoso's website
• Email Kris: [email protected]

• 02:03 From Sales to Sendo: The Origin Story
• 04:00 How Sales Background Influenced Sendo's Vision
• 05:07 The Pivot: When Marketing Became the Primary Buyer
• 06:26 Category Creation: The Evolution of Messaging
• 08:12 Testing Categories vs. Using Customer Language
• 10:18 Website Messaging: From Features to Outcomes
• 12:46 The Power of Visual Storytelling and Product Tours
• 14:40 Adapting to Modern Buyer Research Habits
• 16:14 Dynamic Headlines and Specific Value Propositions
• 19:16 Research Methods for Informing Messaging Strategy
• 21:19 Messaging Milestones: From Features to Outcomes
• 22:22 Using Slack to Share Customer Feedback and Research
• 24:11 Customer Success Stories: Generating Millions in Pipeline
• 25:31 The Art of Personalization in Gifting
• 28:10 Scaling Gifting Through Automation
• 29:24 Sendo as a "Swiss Army Knife" for Marketing and Sales
• 31:11 Why Early-Stage Companies Benefit from Gifting
• 32:22 Current Trends in Company Positioning
• 33:32 Balancing Data and Creativity in Messaging
• 34:58 Campaign Spotlight: Halloween-Themed Marketing
• 36:03 "Swag That Stays": Creating Lasting Impressions
• 37:04 Advice for Founders on Positioning New Products
• 37:51 The Future: From Logistics to Data and AI

Learn more at https://conversionalchemy.net/

Connect with Chris https://linktr.ee/conversionalchemy

Throughout our conversation, Chima emphasizes that successful content should always prioritize the end user over the brand. She discusses how timely, relevant content that addresses current industry challenges consistently performs best, and reveals her strategy of featuring recognized experts to make content stand out in a crowded space.

We explore the critical importance of building personal and brand authority in today's AI-dominated landscape. As Chima explains, "You want your brand name to become so recognizable that even before people start doing that search on search engines, they're already thinking of you." She shares practical advice on how companies can develop internal thought leaders and leverage partnerships to enhance brand authority.

Chima also breaks down her approach to platform-specific content creation, explaining how she determines whether a topic is better suited for a blog post, podcast, or webinar. She shares her content repurposing strategy, demonstrating how a single webinar can be transformed into blog posts, videos, graphics, and social media content to reach audiences across multiple channels.

Whether you're a content marketer, SEO specialist, or brand strategist, this episode offers valuable insights on creating content that not only ranks well but genuinely resonates with your audience and drives meaningful results.

Enjoy!

• Chima on LinkedIn
• Moz's website
• My case study working with Chima on Moz Pro and API positioning, messaging and copy

• 02:15 Creating Content That Truly Resonates with Users
• 04:53 The Power of Featuring Experts in Your Content
• 06:39 Building and Leveraging Your Professional Network
• 07:32 The Growing Importance of Brand Authority in the AI Era
• 10:12 Diversifying Traffic Sources Beyond Google
• 13:12 Balancing Educational Content with Product Promotion
• 15:29 Platform-Specific Content Creation Strategies
• 19:31 The Art of Storytelling in Content Marketing
• 22:59 Attracting Quality Traffic That Drives ROI
• 25:59 Auditing and Updating Large Content Libraries
• 34:29 Automation Strategies for Content Management
• 39:01 Key Advice for Content Marketers in 2025

Learn more at https://conversionalchemy.net/

Connect with Chris https://linktr.ee/conversionalchemy

Throughout our conversation, Shirin emphasizes the importance of starting with a strong narrative before moving to positioning and messaging work. She explains her discovery and intake process when onboarding new clients, highlighting how crucial these first few weeks are for project success. We discuss how she manages review cycles, the ideal number of stakeholders involved (no more than 3-4), and how to avoid the pitfalls of having too many reviewers.

Shirin shares her definition of product marketing as "connecting the market and the customer with your product," and breaks down the differences between narrative, positioning, and messaging documents. She stresses that companies often jump straight to messaging without revisiting their positioning, which can lead to misalignment and ineffective communication.

We explore how to track messaging performance, the importance of looking for patterns in data rather than making reactive changes, and why positioning should be revisited approximately every six months. Shirin also discusses her collaborative approach to consulting, including her model of working with another product marketer to provide better service and combat the isolation of consulting work.

Whether you're a product marketer, marketing leader, or founder looking to improve your product storytelling, this episode offers valuable insights into creating compelling narratives that resonate with your audience and align your teams.

Enjoy!

• Shirin on LinkedIn
• Shirin's website

• 02:11 What's most exciting about product marketing
• 03:14 Defining product marketing: connecting market, customer, and product
• 05:51 Discovery and intake process for new clients
• 08:32 Working with a product marketing partner
• 13:18 Hardest part of positioning and messaging work
• 15:28 Importance of staying informed about broader company updates
• 19:49 Being the chief storyteller of your product
• 21:18 Defining narrative, positioning, and messaging
• 23:09 Post-discovery process and frameworks
• 25:10 One-pagers vs. comprehensive documentation
• 27:25 Managing review cycles effectively
• 29:18 Organizing and making sense of data
• 34:14 How often to revisit positioning
• 39:22 Where Shirin goes to learn and grow
• 40:52 The Time Left dinner experience with strangers

Learn more at https://conversionalchemy.net/

Connect with Chris https://linktr.ee/conversionalchemy