We dive into Sendoso's journey from initially targeting sales teams to discovering that marketing leaders were the actual buyers. Kris explains their category naming evolution - from the failed "engagement delivery platform" to the more descriptive and customer-friendly "direct mail and gifting platform" - highlighting the importance of using language your customers already understand.

Kris shares fascinating insights on how companies use strategic gifting to drive remarkable results, including how Gong generated over $30 million in pipeline from sending pinatas and how Gainsight leveraged their CEO's book to create $8 million in pipeline. We discuss the balance between personalization and scale, with Kris explaining their three-part personalization framework: personalizing around the individual, the signal, or the action.

We also explore how Sendoso's messaging evolved from feature-focused to outcome-driven, and how they use data and AI to enhance creativity in gifting strategies. Whether you're a startup founder or marketing leader, this episode offers valuable insights on breaking through the noise in today's crowded digital landscape.

Enjoy!

• Kris on LinkedIn
• Sendoso's website
• Email Kris: [email protected]

• 02:03 From Sales to Sendo: The Origin Story
• 04:00 How Sales Background Influenced Sendo's Vision
• 05:07 The Pivot: When Marketing Became the Primary Buyer
• 06:26 Category Creation: The Evolution of Messaging
• 08:12 Testing Categories vs. Using Customer Language
• 10:18 Website Messaging: From Features to Outcomes
• 12:46 The Power of Visual Storytelling and Product Tours
• 14:40 Adapting to Modern Buyer Research Habits
• 16:14 Dynamic Headlines and Specific Value Propositions
• 19:16 Research Methods for Informing Messaging Strategy
• 21:19 Messaging Milestones: From Features to Outcomes
• 22:22 Using Slack to Share Customer Feedback and Research
• 24:11 Customer Success Stories: Generating Millions in Pipeline
• 25:31 The Art of Personalization in Gifting
• 28:10 Scaling Gifting Through Automation
• 29:24 Sendo as a "Swiss Army Knife" for Marketing and Sales
• 31:11 Why Early-Stage Companies Benefit from Gifting
• 32:22 Current Trends in Company Positioning
• 33:32 Balancing Data and Creativity in Messaging
• 34:58 Campaign Spotlight: Halloween-Themed Marketing
• 36:03 "Swag That Stays": Creating Lasting Impressions
• 37:04 Advice for Founders on Positioning New Products
• 37:51 The Future: From Logistics to Data and AI

Learn more at https://conversionalchemy.net/

Connect with Chris https://linktr.ee/conversionalchemy

Throughout our conversation, Chima emphasizes that successful content should always prioritize the end user over the brand. She discusses how timely, relevant content that addresses current industry challenges consistently performs best, and reveals her strategy of featuring recognized experts to make content stand out in a crowded space.

We explore the critical importance of building personal and brand authority in today's AI-dominated landscape. As Chima explains, "You want your brand name to become so recognizable that even before people start doing that search on search engines, they're already thinking of you." She shares practical advice on how companies can develop internal thought leaders and leverage partnerships to enhance brand authority.

Chima also breaks down her approach to platform-specific content creation, explaining how she determines whether a topic is better suited for a blog post, podcast, or webinar. She shares her content repurposing strategy, demonstrating how a single webinar can be transformed into blog posts, videos, graphics, and social media content to reach audiences across multiple channels.

Whether you're a content marketer, SEO specialist, or brand strategist, this episode offers valuable insights on creating content that not only ranks well but genuinely resonates with your audience and drives meaningful results.

Enjoy!

• Chima on LinkedIn
• Moz's website
• My case study working with Chima on Moz Pro and API positioning, messaging and copy

• 02:15 Creating Content That Truly Resonates with Users
• 04:53 The Power of Featuring Experts in Your Content
• 06:39 Building and Leveraging Your Professional Network
• 07:32 The Growing Importance of Brand Authority in the AI Era
• 10:12 Diversifying Traffic Sources Beyond Google
• 13:12 Balancing Educational Content with Product Promotion
• 15:29 Platform-Specific Content Creation Strategies
• 19:31 The Art of Storytelling in Content Marketing
• 22:59 Attracting Quality Traffic That Drives ROI
• 25:59 Auditing and Updating Large Content Libraries
• 34:29 Automation Strategies for Content Management
• 39:01 Key Advice for Content Marketers in 2025

Learn more at https://conversionalchemy.net/

Connect with Chris https://linktr.ee/conversionalchemy

Throughout our conversation, Shirin emphasizes the importance of starting with a strong narrative before moving to positioning and messaging work. She explains her discovery and intake process when onboarding new clients, highlighting how crucial these first few weeks are for project success. We discuss how she manages review cycles, the ideal number of stakeholders involved (no more than 3-4), and how to avoid the pitfalls of having too many reviewers.

Shirin shares her definition of product marketing as "connecting the market and the customer with your product," and breaks down the differences between narrative, positioning, and messaging documents. She stresses that companies often jump straight to messaging without revisiting their positioning, which can lead to misalignment and ineffective communication.

We explore how to track messaging performance, the importance of looking for patterns in data rather than making reactive changes, and why positioning should be revisited approximately every six months. Shirin also discusses her collaborative approach to consulting, including her model of working with another product marketer to provide better service and combat the isolation of consulting work.

Whether you're a product marketer, marketing leader, or founder looking to improve your product storytelling, this episode offers valuable insights into creating compelling narratives that resonate with your audience and align your teams.

Enjoy!

• Shirin on LinkedIn
• Shirin's website

• 02:11 What's most exciting about product marketing
• 03:14 Defining product marketing: connecting market, customer, and product
• 05:51 Discovery and intake process for new clients
• 08:32 Working with a product marketing partner
• 13:18 Hardest part of positioning and messaging work
• 15:28 Importance of staying informed about broader company updates
• 19:49 Being the chief storyteller of your product
• 21:18 Defining narrative, positioning, and messaging
• 23:09 Post-discovery process and frameworks
• 25:10 One-pagers vs. comprehensive documentation
• 27:25 Managing review cycles effectively
• 29:18 Organizing and making sense of data
• 34:14 How often to revisit positioning
• 39:22 Where Shirin goes to learn and grow
• 40:52 The Time Left dinner experience with strangers

Learn more at https://conversionalchemy.net/

Connect with Chris https://linktr.ee/conversionalchemy

We explore how Dmitry's engineering mindset shaped his approach to brand building, treating brand components as "Lego blocks" that can be assembled in different ways. He shares practical strategies for creating reusable systems that empower teams across an organization while maintaining brand consistency.

Dmitry discusses the importance of emotional connection in B2B marketing, challenging the notion that business decisions are purely rational. He emphasizes how understanding universal human truths can help brands connect more authentically with their audience, regardless of the number of personas they serve.

The conversation also covers the critical aspects of system adoption and enablement, with Dmitry sharing his experiences implementing large-scale brand systems at HubSpot and helping clients overcome resistance to change.

Whether you're a marketing leader, brand strategist, or creative professional, this episode offers valuable insights into building scalable brand systems that drive consistency while enabling creativity.

Enjoy!

• Dmitry on LinkedIn
• The Creative Brand website

• 00:00 Introduction to Reusable Modules and Components
• 00:39 Welcome to the Message Market Fit Podcast
• 01:24 Guest Introduction: Dmitry Shamis
• 02:09 Defining a Creative Brand
• 03:02 Challenges in Creative Teams
• 04:29 Transition from Web Development to Creative Marketing
• 09:17 The Importance of Curiosity and Problem-Solving
• 15:35 The Intersection of Brand and Product Marketing
• 26:44 The Importance of Translation in Marketing
• 28:01 Building a Brand Like Lego Blocks
• 29:16 Creating Reusable Marketing Components
• 30:45 Enabling Teams with Tools and Systems
• 37:30 Connecting Emotionally with Your Audience
• 40:38 Overcoming Habit and Apathy in Organizations
• 42:35 The Role of a Consultant in Driving Change
• 45:45 Looking Ahead to 2025: Setting Priorities
• 47:59 Conclusion and Final Thoughts

Learn more at https://conversionalchemy.net/

Connect with Chris https://linktr.ee/conversionalchemy

Kevin discusses the unique challenges of B2B advertising compared to B2C, emphasizing the importance of audience qualification and dealing with abstract products. He explains his agency's approach to creating effective ad variations, focusing on visual headlines and leveraging the SUCCESS framework for brainstorming compelling ad ideas.

We explore the power law phenomenon in digital advertising and how it impacts ad performance and budget allocation. Kevin also shares valuable tips on working with enterprise clients, balancing creativity with data-driven decisions, and adapting messaging for different personas and decision-makers.

Whether you're a B2B marketer looking to improve your advertising ROI or a founder seeking to scale your business through paid channels, this episode offers actionable insights to elevate your advertising game.

Enjoy!

• Kevin on LinkedIn
• Right Percent's website

• 02:13 Kevin's journey into B2B advertising
• 03:21 Key differences between B2B and B2C advertising
• 05:21 The concept of performance marketing in B2B
• 10:06 How modern advertising works on power laws
• 11:57 Creating effective ad variations for B2B
• 15:54 Top lessons from working with big companies
• 19:09 Using the SUCCESS framework for ad creation
• 22:15 Balancing creativity and data in ad messaging
• 27:16 Favorite ways of testing messaging
• 31:11 Speaking to different personas and decision-makers
• 33:54 The debate between lead gen and demand gen
• 36:30 Current trends in B2B advertising for 2024
• 38:32 Using personality typing in team management

Learn more at https://conversionalchemy.net/

Connect with Chris https://linktr.ee/conversionalchemy

We explore Ryan's unique approach to customer interviews, focusing on buyer processes rather than demographics. He emphasizes the importance of understanding the larger context in which businesses operate and make decisions, rather than relying solely on job titles or company size.

Ryan walks us through his methodology for crafting effective interview questions, managing biases, and extracting valuable insights. He shares tips on how to get busy executives to participate in research and discusses the ideal number of interviews needed to reach insight saturation.

Whether you're a B2B marketer, product manager, or founder looking to better understand your customers, this episode is packed with practical advice to help you conduct customer interviews that truly move the needle for your business.

Enjoy!

Learn more at https://conversionalchemy.net/

Connect with Chris https://linktr.ee/conversionalchemy

We explore Natália's transition into product marketing and her experience as a solo marketer at a startup. She discusses the importance of balancing strategic thinking with operational tasks and growing expertise in channels that bring the most users.

Natália takes us through Ranking Raccoon's journey, from its inception as a solution to the founders' own link-building struggles to its current position in the market. We discuss the challenges of positioning and messaging for different user segments, including in-house marketers and agency professionals.

We delve into Ranking Raccoon's approach to user research and testing, exploring various methodologies from user interviews to surveys and product launch platforms. Natália shares insights on how they test messaging across different channels and adapt their tone of voice based on user feedback.

Finally, we touch upon content marketing strategies and the balancing act between SEO and messaging goals in blog writing. Natália also shares her go-to resources for staying up-to-date in the product marketing field.

Whether you're a startup founder, an aspiring product marketer, or simply interested in the challenges of early-stage SaaS marketing, this episode offers valuable insights and actionable advice to help you navigate the complexities of product positioning and messaging.

Enjoy!

• Natália on LinkedIn
• Ranking Raccoon's website

• 02:40 Natália's Journey into Product Marketing
• 05:14 Challenges as a Solo Marketer at a Startup
• 10:54 Ranking Raccoon's Origin and Target Audience
• 14:18 Value Proposition and Positioning Strategy
• 17:52 User Research Methodologies
• 21:27 Messaging Testing and Insights
• 26:48 Tone of Voice and Brand Personality
• 30:26 Challenges in Product-Market Fit and Messaging
• 38:51 Content Marketing and SEO Strategy
• 43:25 Resources for Product Marketing Learning

Learn more at https://conversionalchemy.net/

Connect with Chris https://linktr.ee/conversionalchemy

We explore Tamara’s journey from working at Markup, a Chrome extension for design feedback, to launching her own consultancy. She discusses her approach to creating customer personas based on intent rather than traditional demographics, and how she leverages user interviews and sales team insights to uncover valuable messaging opportunities.

Tamara also shares her framework for understanding buyer roles and objections, emphasizing the importance of addressing psychological biases in marketing messages. We delve into her experimentation process and how she balances confidence with humility when proposing new marketing initiatives.

Whether you’re a SaaS founder, marketer, or product manager, this episode offers practical strategies and psychological insights to elevate your marketing game and drive growth.

Enjoy!

CONNECT WITH TAMARA

• Tamara on LinkedIn
• Practical Marketer website

• 02:20 Tamara’s Experience at Markup and Reaching 400k Users
• 06:46 Creating Intent-Based Personas vs Traditional ICPs
• 15:00 Leveraging Customer Interviews for Messaging Insights
• 21:28 Tamara’s Experimentation Framework
• 26:46 Addressing Buyer Objections and Perceived Value
• 32:16 Uncovering Customer Insights Through Various Channels
• 38:12 Message Testing Strategies for B2B SaaS
• 43:54 Transitioning from In-House to Consulting
• 45:32 Upcoming Book and Newsletter Launch
• 46:08 Recommended Resources for Neuroscience in Marketing
• 49:00 Gaming Lessons Applied to Marketing

Learn more at https://conversionalchemy.net/

Connect with Chris https://linktr.ee/conversionalchemy

We explore Talia’s unique approach to conversion optimization, which focuses on understanding customers’ emotional drivers before analyzing website data. She explains how this customer-first methodology leads to more impactful hypotheses and test ideas.

Talia breaks down the concept of emotional targeting in B2B, discussing why it’s often underestimated and how companies can effectively incorporate it into their messaging and design. We also delve into her process for conducting customer research, creating effective value propositions, and testing messaging across various channels.

Whether you’re a B2B marketer, CRO specialist, or founder looking to improve your conversion rates, this episode offers valuable insights on how to connect with your audience on an emotional level and drive sustainable growth.

Enjoy!

• Talia on LinkedIn
• Talia on Twitter
• Getuplift’s website

• 02:46 Talia’s journey from social media to CRO
• 06:26 The power of emotional targeting in B2B
• 11:42 Conducting effective customer research
• 16:28 Creating value propositions that resonate
• 21:28 Testing messaging across different channels
• 26:03 Balancing features and emotional benefits
• 31:08 Overcoming challenges in B2B messaging
• 36:27 Talia’s approach to continuous learning
• 41:37 Upcoming book on emotion in B2B marketing

Learn more at https://conversionalchemy.net/

Connect with Chris https://linktr.ee/conversionalchemy

We explore the challenges product marketers face in gaining buy-in from executive teams and how to overcome them. Gab provides insights on aligning sales and marketing teams, crafting effective messaging strategies, and the importance of market segmentation for startups.

Gab also discusses his approach to podcasting, including how to differentiate in a crowded space and create meaningful conversations with guests. We touch on the concept of "message market fit" and why it's crucial for startups to focus on this before product market fit.

Whether you're a product marketer looking to elevate your role, a founder aiming to refine your messaging strategy, or simply interested in the evolving landscape of B2B marketing, this episode offers valuable insights and actionable advice.

Enjoy!

• Gab on LinkedIn
• We're Not Marketers podcast

• 02:23 Gab's Journey into Product Marketing
• 04:09 Why Product Marketers Are Not Marketers
• 08:14 Qualities of a Great Product Marketer
• 10:54 Aligning Sales and Marketing Teams
• 18:33 Defining Message Market Fit
• 24:12 Challenges in B2B Marketing Jargon
• 32:18 The Role of Podcasting in B2B Marketing
• 37:14 The Importance of Market Segmentation for Startups
• 42:25 Gab's Go-to-Market Audit Process
• 47:21 Learning Resources for B2B Marketers

Learn more at https://conversionalchemy.net/

Connect with Chris https://linktr.ee/conversionalchemy