The Motivate Collective Podcast by Melanie Suzanne Wilson

Show Notes

Keywords

leadership, coaching, strengths, mental health, psychological safety, burnout, authenticity, workplace culture, gender dynamics, career progression

Summary

In this conversation, Melanie Smith discusses her role as a leadership and career coach, focusing on helping mid-level managers identify and optimise their strengths. The discussion delves into the importance of psychological safety in the workplace, the challenges women face in leadership roles, and the rising issue of burnout. Melanie emphasises the need for authenticity and vulnerability in leadership, advocating for supportive work environments that prioritise mental health. The conversation concludes with key takeaways for effective leadership and the importance of creating a positive work culture.

Takeaways

Melanie Smith is a leadership and career coach for mid-level managers.

Identifying strengths can be done through surveys like VIA Strengths.

Character strengths can often be overlooked in leadership.

Women in leadership may face biases for speaking up.

Psychological safety is essential for open discussions about mental health.

Burnout is increasingly common across various industries.

Leaders should model vulnerability to foster trust.

Work-life integration should be celebrated, not martyrdom.

Organisational culture impacts employee mental health significantly.

Regular check-ins can help gauge employee well-being.

Titles

Empowering Leaders Through Self-Awareness

The Importance of Identifying Strengths

Sound bites

"How do people identify their strengths?"

"Character strengths can be overlooked."

"Know your strengths and optimise them."

Chapters

00:00 Understanding Leadership Coaching

01:48 Identifying Strengths in Leadership

03:03 Character Strengths and Their Impact

07:02 Navigating Gender Dynamics in Leadership

13:06 Mental Health in the Workplace

18:55 Psychological Safety and Organisational Culture

25:57 The Importance of Authenticity in Professional Spaces

28:36 Understanding and Recognising Burnout

34:57 Navigating Work Environments and Self-Care

40:42 Shaping Industries for Better Work-Life Balance

44:44 Creating a Supportive Organisational Culture

52:13 Key Lessons for Personal and Professional Growth

Transcript

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (00:01)

Melanie Smith, welcome to the podcast. We've talked before, and this is our first time recording. My understanding of the context of what you do is that you guide mainly mid-level managers as they look at their career progression. How do you explain what you do in your

Mel (00:13)

So the way I would describe myself is a leadership and career coach who also does a little spattering

of leadership development work. And I do predominantly work with mid-level leaders across a whole variety of organisational sectors. ⁓ And my focus is really on helping to create leaders who have high levels of self-awareness, who are providing

fantastic work environments for the teams that they're working with, also operating from their strengths, essentially. So yeah, that's where I'm focused in my time and attention.

Yes.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (01:02)

Awesome. So you're helping people to focus on their strengths. How do people often focus on their strengths? How do people even identify their strengths?

Mel (01:08)

Good question. So there's a range of ways that people can identify strengths. There's some very subjective ways that you can kind of

call out.

the things that you think you're really good at. But I use for the people that I work with, I use a strength survey. ⁓ It's a survey called via strengths. ⁓ And it is a it's a scientifically research survey, there's a lot of research and development that goes into it. But it gives people an anchor point to think about their strengths through. So that's where I work with people just starting with that survey to help people build the strength. lot of people build an understanding of strength, sorry, a lot of people will use something like Gallup strengths. But via strengths, you can actually do a free survey online as well as get paid reports. So it's really accessible for people.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (01:57)

So we're talking about how people can identify their strengths because often there are the obvious things that we think we know, like maybe someone is good at math or bad at math, but do you think sometimes there are...

Mel (02:01)

Yeah.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (02:10)

things we don't realise we're good at, and how do people find out?

Mel (02:15)

Well, I think that there's more than just things that we think that we're good at or not good at. ⁓ And so the way that I look at strengths is I look at technical strengths, so the kind of business.

strengths or the functional strengths or the, you know, technical pieces that we learn that we're really good at. But then I really focus in on character strengths. So character strengths, you might have heard of Gallup strengths as a survey tool. I personally use these strengths as a survey tool, which is a scientifically researched tool. And it helps you to identify the strengths that you have as an individual, and helps you to then work through where you might be over- or underplaying some of those strengths.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (02:43)

What is it?

Mel (02:54)

⁓ And what it talks about is your top five strengths being your signature strengths. So when you're operating from your signature strengths, you're most in flow. And I often, when I'm working with clients, I'm talking about where they see themselves over and under using some of those strengths so that we can work on how to optimise those strengths to make them operate from a more sustainable and effective place, if that makes sense.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (03:21)

So first of all, what's that study for those who don't know?

Mel (03:26)

Yep, so the-

Yeah, it's a VIA, it's called VIA Strength Service, so VIA. You can do the free version. There's, and I like it because it's really accessible for people. You don't have to pay a lot of money to be able to access it. But if you do want more detailed reporting, you can pay for those reports as well. So it gives you a really nice overview of what each of those strengths means and how you, what that means about how you could show up. And I think it's a really nice way to anchor a conversation.

about strengths because if I was to engage you in a conversation about what do you think your personal strengths are, I would pretty much guarantee that you're going to struggle to articulate that. So it just gives a nice anchor point for a conversation around strengths.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (04:17)

Okay, so there are the character strengths. What are some character traits that people might thrive in that they might not have consciously thought of?

Mel (04:27)

Well, so the survey will give you your top, there's 24 character strengths, and it will give you your top to bottom of where those strengths lie for you. And they're all strengths, none of them are weaknesses. It's just about which ones you default to most often. So, as an example, my top two character strengths are fairness and bravery.

And that plays out in a lot of different spaces for me. So I will often be triggered, so I can overuse my fairness strength when I get triggered by commentary or behaviors of other people and because bravery is my second strength, I've really had to learn how to optimize these top two particularly because often what's happened for me as an individual is when my fairness strength gets triggered, bravery kicks in and I call people out no matter the environment, no matter what's going on. And so I've had to learn how to temper that, think about the environment, still utilise those strengths, but maybe utilise some of my kind of lesser strengths to help balance that out a little bit. So you can imagine working in construction as a young female or male environment, lots of commentary and then the young female being the very outspoken, vocal person at the table that others didn't really want to hear from at times.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (05:51)

Let's dive into that because I can relate to that a lot. And it's really interesting. It's very clear culturally that women are expected to not speak up about things. And there are definitely some men out there who can just be honest about what's happening, and people think they're just doing their jobs or showing leadership. But

Mel (06:04)

Mm.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (06:16)

You know, I'm not trying to be a raging feminist here, but it's just the truth that women end up looking difficult just because we're saying this is what's happening. I have. Is that what your experience was, and how did you handle it?

Mel (06:24)

Mmm.

Yeah, so at this particular point in my career, I was pretty young. I was in my 20s. And I specifically remember now that you kind of raise it, I specifically remember a very senior person that I was supporting giving me feedback that I didn't suffer fools. ⁓ And my response, bravery and fairness, sitting up there in my top strengths, my response was, I feel like the behaviours that I exhibit, you will reward in my male colleagues. Please help me understand why it's a constructive feedback point for me. And he didn't really know how to respond to that at that point, but ⁓ I've always been quite firm in my position and I've kind of stood against the unfairness or the...

biases that existed in spaces. And I felt that because I was strong enough to do that, I was able to do that for others as well. So being in a people and culture space, it kind of served me. had a position at the table. I was quite brave in putting these opinions forward. I just faced it head-on. I just faced things head-on on and not everybody can do that. Not everybody's comfortable to do that. Not everybody's willing to take those risks, you know, because it is risky calling out these behaviours in these types of environments.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (07:46)

It really is. So you were a young female working in a male-dominated industry. And I'm going to speculate. I really want to know if you agree. I think that some women have that stereotype imposed on them, and the expectation even more when they might be young or looking more feminine. And of course, we're dealing with a lot of stereotypes here, but

Mel (07:56)

Mm-hmm.

Mm.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (08:16)

Have you seen that happening where some women, in particular, just look maybe a bit more girly or something like that, and there's even more of an expectation?

Mel (08:25)

to behave in a certain way or to be kind of, yeah. Yeah, yeah. I do think that that, so what I've seen is that women who show up more feminine and...

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (08:27)

Yeah, to now direct the boat, all of that.

Mel (08:39)

or sitting in their femininity very comfortably in that space are often torn down. So there's one lady that I recall, I was working with her, and the commentary around her was that she was a pit bull with lipstick. Like those kinds of comments would be, yeah, would be made because she did wear heels, and she did wear lipstick, and she didn't show up in high vis, and she wasn't wearing steel cap boots all the time. And she was very confident.

in her femininity. ⁓ And it was it was constantly called out ⁓ by others in the environment. And I do think that those there is shifts, not all of those environments are the same anymore. But it's still definitely exists. It's out there. And I also think that for women in those spaces, particularly when you're sitting in a leadership level, ⁓ one of the things that I really struggled with is you start to find yourself adapting your behaviour to the environment. So where people are really aggressive, you almost feel like you've got to fight fire with fire. For me personally, I kind of was like, this doesn't feel like me anymore. I feel like I'm losing myself to this environment, which meant that I wasn't able to effectively operate in my strengths. I wasn't able to ⁓ turn up and and and just be.

And I think there's really something really important about being able to turn up and just be who you are without being cut down or worried about someone overpowering you or trying to dominate you in meetings. I mean, I sat across ⁓ from a gentleman in a meeting who I would say straight up tried to intimidate me. And I called it out, but that's me. Not all women will feel comfortable to do that. So yeah, not fun. Definitely not fun.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (10:33)

Going to suggest that people of any gender can be people pleasers, and then it's really hard because then if we are even calling something out, and the men could be the people pleasing types or the types who avoid confrontation and conflict, then do they handle this even more in more of a difficult way? Do they feel a lot more emotion about it when a woman is speaking about the truth?

Mel (11:04)

I, so my brain's going in two ways on this question because I think that there are men in those environments who don't demonstrate that really aggressive masculine style, who also struggle in those environments with the expectation of the conflict and the combative nature of the culture and whatnot of the sector. But I think that it's almost like a show.

⁓ this combative nature of things. It's almost like a show. It's like who's bigger and more superior. Yeah. And when you get underneath it, there's a lot of like, I know in the construction industry, for example, and we're speaking about construction, but across a lot of industries, but in construction, particularly, there's a huge amount of mental health ⁓ issues amongst people who work in construction. And I remember years ago reading a piece of research that said,

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (11:36)

can act.

Mel (12:02)

When there was a woman in a team or in a project team, there was significantly lower mental health issues because the men felt like they could be freer to share their feelings, freer to be more vulnerable. And so there was this massive benefit of having women involved in the construction industry to provide those outlets and that calming effect, almost, because it allowed people and outlet to speak about things. the, you know, even for men in that industry.

I don't think it's a great experience. So it's hard as a woman, but it's not easy as a man either.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (12:39)

They're expected to play the character of the tough guy.

Mel (12:44)

I think so, in a lot of instances. It's not, like I say, it's not everywhere, there are some really fantastic companies that have awesome cultures and do a lot of work to make sure that the well-being of their staff is looked after. But there are pockets where it's still very what I would consider old school.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (13:04)

Yes,

So you mentioned the mental health.

Let's really dig into that because I really wonder right now globally, if people are sort of a bit more emotionally rocky right now, there are a few more things in the news, and people are still stretched and juggling with their careers. But what I wanted to ask about is how can people bring their mental health or their ongoing conditions up?

Mel (13:08)

Yes.

Mm.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (13:35)

In conversation in a way where they don't have to reveal things they don't want to reveal, but they maybe need just a hint of flexibility to keep doing their work, but in a different way. I know some people just want to never reveal a label, and some people identify with their labels like it is their whole person. So what do you suggest in those sorts of situations?

Mel (13:52)

Yeah.

It's tricky because it depends on where you are. ⁓ And I say this because there are environments that are really open to having conversations around mental health. really aware of, and they really care. So they're aware and they care about their people enough that they want to engage in those conversations. They want to be ⁓ able to support and to help. And then there's other environments where potentially the environment itself is unsafe. And so for people to raise those types of mental health challenges then creates a risk around, 'Will I be seen as not capable of doing my job? Will I be the first person on the chopping block if there's a redundancy process? Will I be labelled?' No. No, 100 % is not allowed.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (14:45)

Is that allowed?

Mel (14:53)

But it doesn't stop it from happening, unfortunately. And the more sophisticated ⁓ organisations will know how to kind of put little bit of a shroud around what's going on there. ⁓

So I think the first thing that I would advise people to think about is what is the level of psychological safety in the organisation to actually have some of these conversations. That's number one, because I would never encourage someone to just go in and have a conversation in an environment where it's actually gonna create more harm than good for them. Organisations have an obligation under the Psychological Safety Act to provide safe work environments. That legislation is not that

old when and when legislation is new, it's generally quite untested. So I don't know yet what the repercussions will be for people who are for organisations who are found to not be providing psychological, psychologically safe environments. And there may be case law out there that I haven't seen. So I'm not an expert in that space. But I think the first thing is, is there psychological safety to have the conversation? The second piece would be to

⁓ I think be clear on what the accommodations are or what support you need from the or ⁓ so that if you do have the safety in the environment and you can have that conversation, you're clear on what you're asking for. And the third piece is go get some support and some advice from, you know, industry bodies or ⁓ your people and culture function to help support you in having that conversation, because often leaders are, well, in a lot of organisations, leaders haven't yet built the skills to be able to deal with these types of conversations. They're not even sure of what their obligations are, even though they should be; they're not always. So, seeking some support in preparing for that conversation and having that conversation and being clear on what your needs are, is it around flexibility? Is it around working ⁓ in a space where you can have quiet because you're feeling overwhelmed? Is it about being able to sit in a meeting and turn your camera off because you know it's creating overwhelm, or whatever it is. You've just got to be clear on what those accommodations are and if you've got medical advice and support that backs that up that obviously helps because it then creates some credibility around the request which makes it harder to deny or decline if that makes sense.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (17:38)

So we do need that credibility from the health space potentially or definitely.

Mel (17:43)

I think it helps,

yeah.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (17:47)

Yeah. So you also mentioned bringing in someone to help and advise. So, how new is this law? And I mean, I didn't even heard about it. So what should we know?

Mel (18:02)

Um, like I said, I'm not an expert in the Psychological Safety Act, but it came into play, I would say, like 2018, 2019. It was around there, like.

around that period of time. And it was built into the Workplace Health and Safety Act. So it created an obligation on employers to provide environments that are psychologically safe. ⁓ And psychological safety has broad definition, there's obviously pieces around making sure that you're actively discouraging bullying, but there's pieces around work hours and culture and all sorts of stuff in there. So it's really around

acknowledging that workplaces have a very significant role to play when it comes to psychological injuries of their employees. And they should be doing everything within their control and their power to ⁓ mitigate the risk of psychological injury, essentially. And I think it comes off the back of there was in the workers compensation world, there was a really significant increase in ⁓ in psychological injuries, it has been since I've been working in people and culture for decades, but it's really gotten worse and worse over time. And to the point where, you know, they're the most costly injuries. They're really hard to manage because it's not like a broken arm where, you know, you've got six weeks of for your bone to heal and then some rehab and you're back at work. It's much, much harder to manage.

For the employee and for the employer. So I like the idea that if we have better workplaces, we have less injuries and putting the owners on the workplace to create that environment, I think, is a good idea.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (19:43)

What is a psychological injury? Is it a trauma at work? Does it include bullying? What comes under that umbrella?

Mel (19:51)

So many things. So a psychological injury is, I guess, like any other injury, but it's it's something that's had an impact on your psychology. So it could be a traumatic event. could be bullying. It could be anxiety due to overwhelming workloads. ⁓ It could be a whole range of things. And it's it.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (19:54)

⁓ really?

Mel (20:17)

It needs to fall under the definitions of the workers compensation act in terms of this, definition of psychological injury. I don't have that in front of me, so I'm not sure exactly what's included. But it's basically that you've work has to be the main contributing factor is, is one of the key criteria.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (20:26)

Thank you.

Mel (20:36)

And I've had conversations with leaders who are like, this person's talking about, and stress is not a psychological industry injury. Stress is a physiological state. ⁓ It's about, you know, so we used to hear about stress claims a lot, but stress itself is not an actual injury. But if someone was suffering anxiety due to overwhelming work pressures, and that would be a psychological, psychological injury, instance.

Too many psychologicals. But I have seen leaders who have talked about, okay, well, this person's putting in a claim around a psychological injury, but we know that they're also dealing with things outside of work that are personal in nature. And there's often this call that needs to be made from the insurer around what is the major contributing factor. ⁓ And if work is a contributing factor to that, ⁓

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (21:27)

The main thing.

Mel (21:33)

How much of it is work-related, and what needs to be done in the workplace to shift that?

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (21:39)

I can imagine that would be a very sensitive process to figure out because it means checking what's going on in someone's personal life.

Mel (21:44)

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, there and I really feel for people who do have psychological injuries because ⁓ they are often misunderstood in the workplace. Some people are seen to be unable to cope and making things up so that they don't have to do their job properly and that's actually a performance issue. ⁓

And sometimes that happens as well. Like, it is really subjective because, like I say, it's not like a broken bone or, you know, a torn muscle that you can measure the progress against. It's very subjective.

Yeah.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (22:33)

It is very subjective. I'm sort of just curious. So if, if someone was putting someone in an organisation through a whole lot of unnecessary systemic procedures, like we have to go through this process because I decided, and it might be a very involved, potentially humiliating, like.

Mel (22:37)

Mm.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (22:59)

Maybe making up accusations out of thin air and then just dragging it out, basically trying to. I've heard that at some organisations. This is a good way to put it at some organisations. Apparently, people make it so difficult for someone hoping they'll quit

Mel (23:15)

Yeah. So I'm sure that happens. ⁓

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (23:19)

You haven't seen

a lot of that?

Mel (23:22)

Look, I've seen a lot of things on both sides of the fence. I have seen vexatious claims made, I have seen legitimate claims made, I have seen leaders who don't know how to engage and get a bit flabbergasted around around the whole thing. ⁓ But I've also seen leaders who have a lot of care for their employees and really want to work with them and help them to get well. And in those environments, that's obviously where you see the best results is where a leader is curious and is leaning in and is trying to understand ⁓ and is trying to work with the person rather than against them. And I think that in those environments, a lot of it comes down to the culture that the leader is creating. So, to create a psychologically safe culture is the first step.

And to then maintain it even when someone has a psychological injury and to really get underneath the hood and understand well what's been going on and what do we need to shift in our culture. So taking some of that ownership ⁓ is the best way to look at it. You hear about organisations that don't do that, that do push people out or that hope that they'll leave, whether it's an injury or a performance issue. ⁓

But those situations are usually like low-trust cultures. There's usually not a lot of psychological safety in those cultures in the first place. And those are the environments where I feel if you need to raise that you've got a mental health issue or if you're neurodivergent or if you've got some other challenge, if you've got a toxic work environment, that's where it's really challenging to put those things on the table.

And leaning on legislation then is more important. But if you have a really good work culture and people are really there to help the organisation be successful and support the team members to be successful in achieving the organisation's goals, you're more likely to have an environment where there's open discussions and there are accommodations. And, you know, we're trying to get the best out of people with the strengths that they have, rather than fighting against, you know, claims and challenges. So I personally would prefer to work in the latter. The one, the one, sorry, the one that has the positive culture,

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (25:48)

curious

Absolutely.

Do you think that authenticity comes into the psychological safety of a space? And I'm wondering what that includes. I know there are some organisations where they will ask about someone's family, and people might want to talk about that and not talk about it. Or there are other forms of authenticity. Does that come into making it a better environment? And how do you balance that with simply keeping the professional image?

Mel (26:23)

So I think that it is important for people to be able to turn up authentically. There's a lot of research that says that if we are able to be our authentic selves, then we're going to be more effective in our work. We're not going to be putting on a mask every day. So one of the things that I think is really important to note is as humans, something like 70 % of our communication is not verbal. And so if someone's coming into work and they have to put a mask on every day to show up because they don't want to show parts of themselves,

safe

to show parts of themselves. That's taking time and energy for them to do. And for the person who's facing into them, I know for me, for instance, if I feel like there's something you're holding back, then I'd struggle to trust. Like, who are you actually? Like, what's going on behind the facade that I'm not seeing? And so I think there's, there's a professionalism piece in terms of our behaviour and the standards of behaviour that are accepted.

But I feel like there's space in professional environments to be authentic. And in fact, we get better connections and we have better conversations, and we can constructively challenge each other better if there is that space to be authentic. And that's where...

The strengths piece really comes in. If I can understand your strengths and you can understand mine, and that helps us better understand why we do particular things or how we turn up, then we can really start to have some good conversations about how we're utilizing our strengths and how we as a team can kind of map and organize people's work around strengths ⁓ to help everybody be successful.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (28:01)

So it's okay to reveal more about ourselves and to be a bit more real about more parts of our personalities and interests.

Mel (28:12)

I feel like it should be. And I know, as I say, like if you've got a low trust environment where it's not psychologically safe, that's going to be harder to do. But I feel like if you're in an environment and you can't be authentic, then you're not gonna be as effective. We should create space in organisations for people to be authentic.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (28:33)

Part of that would probably be speaking up about our basic needs. So let's look at burnout for a second, because that gets a lot of talk. I think we can both relate to burnout and sometimes the signs. I'm wondering what can you share about the signs of burnout? Because I'm guessing for some of us, it starts off with a very subtle exhaustion, or we just keep going until we crash. So you think you're fine and then

Mel (28:41)

Mmm.

Mmm.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (29:02)

drop off the cliff. What should we know about burnout?

Mel (29:05)

Okay, so I again, I'm not an expert, but I can talk about my experience with burnout. And I know that it does show up differently for different people. And it can take a really long time to recover from. So for me, the early warning signs of burnout for me were actually anxiety, because I started to feel extraordinarily overwhelmed with I couldn't get through the work that was in front of me.

no matter how hard I tried, there was too much work, not enough resource that had the capability to do the work. And then me underneath the pile of everything trying to work through it. For me, it first showed up as really long work hours. So I was never really off. Even when I was offline, I was mentally ticking.

But there were some really significant symptoms that came in the form of things like I had an issue called, I think the acronym is TMJ, was an issue with my jaw. I couldn't actually open my jaw properly. I started to suffer migraines when I'd never suffered migraines.

I was sick all the time, everything that came around. If someone walked past me in the street and they were sick, I caught it. I was extraordinarily fatigued. I couldn't keep my eyes open. And I remember ⁓ really clearly going into my doctor and talking her through all of my symptoms. And she said to me, you are the clinical version. You are the clinical definition of burnout.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (30:35)

Thanks for your attention.

Mel (30:37)

That's where you're at. And I had to go get CT scans and MRIs just to make sure that everything was functioning properly. I even had to get a lumbar puncture to make sure that, cause I had these headaches and whatnot, and they wanted to make sure I didn't have swelling on the brain, all sorts of stuff. And when I saw the neurologist after all these tests had been done, she said to me, 'It's lifestyle. It's… you know, really long sustained periods and very high pressure and stress. And you have to change your lifestyle to be able to manage it. And I do know that it turns up differently for different people. For some people, it can result in pretty significant depression, but it does turn up physically as well. ⁓ And I think it's important to call out that there's a difference between feeling overwhelmed and stressed for a period of time and burnout.

So I think the difference with burnout is that you are showing the physical symptoms of the body not coping. So yeah, it's kind of ⁓ a couple of things all coming together, but ⁓ burnout is on the rise across a whole range of industries. When I worked in the public sector, they had really terrible burnout statistics coming through.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (31:52)

percentage.

Mel (31:54)

Yeah, and I mean, admittedly, it was self-declared. So there was no kind of medical basis for it. People were talking about their how burnt out they were feeling. But, you know, people think that the public service is a space where you go work and it's easy and you just chill out. And here we are, we've got people who are frontline leaders, we've got people who are, you know, working in big departments, little departments and across the board, they were talking about how they were experiencing burnout. And I think

technology, ⁓ the inability to switch off, ⁓ the crossover with COVID of life and work and how we've continued to do that. We can overplay that strength of flexibility to our disadvantage. ⁓ And it can mean that we're always on. I remember early in my career, I had one of those computer towers under my desk. I didn't have a laptop. It's showing my age. And when I left work, I turned my computer off.

And I physically left the office, and work stayed there. I couldn't bring it home. It wasn't accessible. And then I think about now where, you you've got not just notifications on my phone. I've got notifications on my watch. You've got notifications on my laptop. I'm accessible in all sorts of ways. All the time. I talk to people who talk about getting emails and then a Teams message, and then a WhatsApp message. And it's all about the one thing. So we're overwhelmed and connected in a way that's ⁓ I don't think I've ever been experienced in workplaces before.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (33:28)

Yes. And I think that on top of the actual work that we're doing, a lot of people in all different professions are now expected to have some sort of online presence as well. You might've seen that in some ways, maybe with your independent work or something else. Most people are on LinkedIn. A lot of people have their own website, whatever it might be, but there's that extra layer where you're doing the work and then the work about the work. so there's definitely the online space and even, and

Mel (33:39)

Mmm.

Yeah.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (33:58)

Everybody can relate to the flexibility you're talking about where it looks flexible, but it means that we have less freedom. ⁓ so that's a part of the burnout. And you talked about your physical symptoms. The first person who was on this podcast, Catherine Crestani said that her fingers were going numb. And so that one really stood out to me because I think that I had a similar thing to what you had. had migraine cold, migraine cold.

But it's amazing knowing it can manifest as other things as well. So you're saying that if people are getting really sick, then it could be because, potentially, and again, we're both not doctors, but we've seen it in our own experience and in other people, that they could be overworked and burning out. I'm wondering, I know you're saying some organisations aren't as open to suggestions, but

Mel (34:33)

Yeah.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (34:56)

What should we do? And at what point, especially if someone is working at a place that isn't going to make adjustments, then what should they do to look after themselves?

Mel (35:08)

⁓ It's a really tough one. ⁓ Because obviously, there's always the option of looking for alternative work, but that's not always an option for everyone. I think particularly in that space, I think about frontline workers like nurses, you know, and we've got so many nurses leaving the sector ⁓ because they're under-resourced and overworked. ⁓ So it's a tough one because if the option

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (35:09)

you

Mel (35:37)

is get out. There's people that really love what they do and don't want to have to do that. I think it really comes back to the leaders in these organisations and what they're willing to, the environment that they're creating and willing to tolerate for their people. And I think that's really what it comes down to. There's no kind of silver bullet to fix it. I think that we need to be creating environments where people can speak up and be heard and be believed.

Think that's a really important part of it. But then there's also that piece where leadership need to be thinking about what are the impacts of our decisions on our people first. So before you start implementing new systems, new processes, new strategies, like where are our people in this? And I think the organisations that have a people-centred approach have lower rates of burnout, have...

You know, higher rates of performance, they retain their employees, they're going to have higher trust environments because the people are at the center of it. And I don't, I really don't believe there's just a like, do this and it's, and it's going to be great. I think there's a speak up piece, and I think there's a kind of environment and believing your employees, and acknowledging when we could be doing things better and actively working to make it better.

I also think the lived experience of employees is really important to be ⁓ like that lived experience needs to be part of the solution. So if I'm sitting here telling you that I'm working 12-hour days, you should be worried as a leader because that's not sustainable. It's not sustainable for my health. It's not sustainable for my personal life. ⁓ It's not sustainable for my energy levels. And maybe it is for a few.

I'm in my head, I'm hearing people go, well, I work 12 hours a day and I'm fine. And for some people, that's okay, but to expect that of everybody isn't. So I think there's a, it's kind of top up, top-down, bottom-up approach in my view.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (37:47)

for sure. You identified something that I wish that the workaholics would realise that not everybody can do the 12-hour day. And I'm wondering if you can help me to really show top leaders that they're going to get better results, perhaps less mistakes from people working for them, perhaps just getting better quality work when people aren't getting burned out, and

Mel (37:55)

you

Yeah.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (38:17)

So the benefits around that, and also the benefits of giving a chance to the people who can't do the 12-hour days, and so

Mel (38:25)

Well, I think... ⁓

think there's a piece, so there's a lot of people that I speak to in conversations I have with potential clients around, I don't want to be a CEO, I don't want to be in the C suite, ⁓ because I see how those people work, and I don't want to have to do that. And these are people that are really talented, high-potential, talented individuals who are opting out of senior leadership, because they don't like what they're seeing above them. And I find myself in this little bit of a

a sticky situation because I'm kind of like, well, unless we get people who don't work like that through to those positions, how do we ever provide a different example of what's possible? And so it's almost like the feminist movement, a little bit, you need some of those people to push through and break the boundaries to then create or open the floodgates for others to come through. And this goes for men and for women, I need to call out because there's lots and lots of men that I talk to who are saying,

I want to be available for my kids' sports events. I want to be able to go to the school assembly. I want to be able to be present in my household and help out with the chores. And this is a big conversation shift that I've noticed over the last few years, particularly, I think since COVID, there's been that real shift. And I think, you know, those senior leaders out there with that expectation, are really doing themselves a disservice because they're potentially disengaging some of the really talented, high-performing people in their organisations. ⁓ And it's okay. I think we need to start saying it's okay for to want to be successful at work and to want to enjoy life. And the martyrdom of I work 12, 14-hour days every day, I get up at 4 am to, you know, log on and do something like let's get real guys.

Those are the people that have heart attacks at 60. And it's not, it's the martyrdom. I think we need to start celebrating ⁓ work-life integration and allowing the space for people who are really good at what they do to lead without having to martyr themselves in the process.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (40:47)

I'm wondering if you have any suggestions to the people who are shaping industries as a whole, because as lucky enough to know leaders in the last while who feel a bit helpless with industries that are burning out people on all levels, from the top to the bottom. And especially I'm seeing just the irony where it's in some of the most important fields, be it.

Mel (41:06)

Yeah.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (41:15)

Gosh, education or looking after people or anything. And I'm really, really concerned. I don't know if it's the associations, whether it's the legal side decision makers. I don't know, but if there's something you can say to the people shaping a whole industries to change things so that everybody can be okay, because I'm a little bit worried.

What if some of the leaders out there feel like they don't have a choice but to be burnt out, and then, you know, that's not helping anyone. What can we do to help everybody?

Mel (41:54)

That's a big question.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (41:56)

Sorry!

Mel (41:58)

Okay, I think it's system. I think it's the systems that we work within. I think that when we're, if you're in an organisational system or an industry system that is built in a particular way, we need to break the system down and actively and intentionally build it differently. And so if I come back to that construction example, if you think about construction, the way that it works as an industry, is the developer is trying to get the lowest possible price for the product. The builder or the construction company is trying to get the highest possible price, and they're not really on the same team here, right? So it creates a combative environment. So the developer pushes them down, the construction company will go, okay, well, we'll agree to that price, but then we're going to find all of these opportunities to create variations in the contracts, very contract-driven ⁓ and it's very combative. And

If you think about the environment that that creates, it's not then surprising that at all levels through those industries, it's like this kind of to and fro, we're going to fight you for the for the last dollar, I'm going to get what I can out of this situation. So when you don't have, ⁓ you know, collaborative ways of working and partnerships, even if it looks that way on the surface, underneath, there's always a lot of kind of to and fro and fighting and contractual arguments. So what is the system that would work in that space that then releases the pressure valve a little bit, right? And in very legal contractual environments, often the pressure valve is very high. And when we're trying to kind of push down to the lowest dollar and we're trying to push up, like you've got this tension all the time, ⁓ it's very high stress and it's difficult to manage. And that then creates longer work environments and reactiveness and all sorts of stuff, which isn't helpful. So if there's industry bodies out there that are listening to this, I think it's about how do you think about the system in that industry and the culture that creates across the industry and then what are the opportunities to shift that change that improve on that so that there are less people feeling the brunt of this all the way through the organizations that are within that industry.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (44:23)

Absolutely. I wanted to go back to organisational culture for a second, and this can apply to communities as well as workplaces. We just had, I think, R U OK Day just happened, and there was the suicide prevention. So we had a little mental health awareness weeks, and I saw a post on LinkedIn. can't remember who wrote this, that it was called a cupcake effect, something like that. A lot of places are apparently having a day.

Mel (44:27)

Mm.

Yeah.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (44:52)

of awareness, and then going back to what they always do. So what are some simple ways, it sounds like you've seen that quite a bit. So I'm really curious. What are some simple things that people can do to make sure they don't slip back into old habits?

Mel (45:00)

Yeah.

So one thing that, and this is really granular, but if you're a leader in an organisation, one of the things that I've seen that works really well is starting every meeting or every one-on-one with asking people how they're feeling on a scale of one to 10. Something as simple as that can help to shift the dial on understanding where your employees are at, what's going on with them, and it creates the opportunity to have a discussion about it. Now, if you've got an employee and they come in and they say, I'm a six, but every day there are six, that's cool. And the question you might ask is, how do we get you to a seven or eight? What would need to happen to get you there?

But if you've got an employee that comes in and says, I'm a six every time, and then they come in one day and they say, I'm a three, okay, we need to have a conversation, what's going on, and what support can I give you? Or is there something going on at home or whatever? I think having some really simple.

conversation, it's all about the conversation. So if we're only having a conversation once a year, and I 100 % agree with that view, it's the you know, the tokenistic, are you okay? Well, no, okay, I'm great today, but I wasn't yesterday. You didn't care about me then. Right? ⁓ Or something might happen tomorrow, and I'm not okay then, but the day is past, so no one's asking. So building it into your ways of operating, your ways of leading, so that it's a regular discussion point and people then become comfortable to be vulnerable to start to share some of these pieces and we can kind of early intervention the crap out of it, if you don't mind me saying, so that we're hearing it as it's happening. But we'll, you know, it helps us to get in earlier to understand what's going on so that we're not letting things grow and fester without even having an awareness that they're sitting there. And it's so simple. Where are you today on a scale of one to 10?

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (46:38)

Next little button's being explicit. Go for it.

Mel (46:58)

So simple.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (47:04)

The scale of one to 10 because it lets people show how severe something feels to them. And it also shows, okay, how much an impact, how much of an impact has something really had. Because for me, I remember hearing, well, a request of the one to 10 when I maybe had a broken wrist or a broken leg. And then it's a very clear, okay, this hurts, but it's

But I'm not at a 10, I'm not at a breaking point. And if there's the opportunity to use that to label the emotions, I, that's revolutionary to me. And I never thought of that. And I hope that it's really helping other people because sometimes people can say, I'm feeling really stressed out today. And you might respond with, 'Take it steady, mate.' You know, it might not.

It might not sink in that things are at a breaking point for someone, or we might assume, gosh, this person's at a breaking point when really we're just being preventative. So you're giving people the opportunity to really articulate where things actually are.

Mel (47:59)

Yeah.

Yeah, and for some people, stress is normal. Like, I know the people in my life who are always stressed. So getting that kind of, okay, is this a 10 out of 10 stress or is it a three out of 10 stress? Like, where are you at in that stress? So you can start to moderate and benchmark. ⁓ Because I think that's important as well. Like, and yeah, I think the articulation of where they're at and using a numerical scale helps to literally measure.

So, okay, you're usually a seven, now you're a three. Wow, okay, what's going on?

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (48:46)

So the three would be worse.

Mel (48:48)

Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (48:53)

Yeah, it's a chance to then it's an invitation to discussion then.

Mel (48:54)

Yeah.

100%, 100%. And I think that, you know, and leaders should share where they're at too. I think that's the other critical piece. This isn't about employees just telling you where they're at. You should also be communicating where you're at because the more vulnerable the leader is, the more open their team will be to being vulnerable. And that's how we build vulnerabilities, showing it first. We build trust through showing vulnerability, and the more vulnerability you show, the more authentic you can be. And it creates this really great kind of openness and safety within the team.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (49:35)

invite you to explore that and I'm sure we'll go a bit beyond an hour because we just have a way of talking about everything, but I invite you to explore the idea of leaders being a bit open about how they are doing because I know sometimes leaders want some things to be private, but there might be a chance to be vague or general and say, look, I'm having a rough day beyond work or something like that. Or maybe they want it to be specific, but

I wanted to also ask you about how some people, leaders or not, will be a little bit worried about being judged or how they look, either online or in the industry, in the community. I think we're all very worried about what people think of us these days.

Mel (50:20)

⁓ 100%, but the best advice I've heard is, or the best quote I've heard is, other people's opinion of you is not your business. ⁓ And it's very hard to put into practice. But when you think about it, it's really true. So if we're showing up authentically and we're being ourselves, we should feel more confident in who we are. And then that then builds more confidence in showing up authentically. ⁓

Everyone is worried about what everyone else is saying about them. ⁓ And there's a biological reason for that. in ancient times, if you weren't part of a group, then you wouldn't survive. If you were an outcast from a group, you wouldn't survive. So, and that mentality still sits in our little caveman brain back here, telling us you need to be part of a group or you're not going to survive. And so, that's why we're so concerned about being judged. We're so concerned about what people think about us. But we're in a modern world now. And I think that we actually need to start to let go of some of those things. Because the results that we get when we're vulnerable are fantastic. And there's research, I think it's by Jacob Morgan, who demonstrated he had some statistics that

the most senior people in an organization were the least vulnerable and the higher you went up in the organization, the less vulnerability you showed. ⁓ And that then makes those very senior leaders inaccessible. They're not, people can't relate to them and it makes it seem like they're not struggling. And I think when we're open about what's going well and what's not going well, we give permission to others to do the same and then we can create better environments for people.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (52:11)

Okay. That's going to be really freeing because again, in community and family and work and anything, if we can free ourselves from the judgment of will people think less of me or will there be a consequence if I say I'm overloaded right now, then it sounds like that's the way for everybody to be okay and to get better results.

Mel (52:32)

Mm.

think so.

I think so.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (52:41)

Absolutely.

Mel (52:42)

I

have to jump off in a second. so sorry.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (52:47)

Okay. Well, we got so close to now. That's okay.

Okay. The way I like to wrap these up is, okay. The way I like to wrap these up is by asking what are three key lessons or messages that everybody should keep in mind. So basic essentials everybody will need.

Mel (53:08)

Okay, number one, know your strengths and how to best optimize them for your own success. Number two, don't be afraid to be authentic. So turn up, be yourself ⁓ and find your people, right? So where it's safe to do that. And I think number three is,

Be part of the positive work environment. Like really think about how you're showing up and how you're impacting others. ⁓ Because if you're not dealing well with things that are going on around you, you could be impacting other people. you know, I think we all need to take accountability for how we show up and how we lead. ⁓ And we should be conscious of the impact on others and making sure that we can be leaving a positive impact wherever we can.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (54:00)

Melanie Smith, thank you so much for your precious time. I always learn so much from you and thanks for being willing to be on the podcast.

Mel (54:04)

Thank you.

It's been fantastic. Thank you so much for having me.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (54:13)

Anytime. Thanks.

Keywords

mindset, relationships, personal growth, decision making, accountability, gratitude, addiction recovery, healthy relationships, authenticity, self-discovery

Summary

In this enlightening conversation, Alison Blackler shares her insights on understanding the unique workings of our minds, the importance of navigating relationships, and the power of decision-making in today's complex world. She emphasises the significance of small steps towards personal growth, cultivating gratitude, and overcoming unhealthy habits. Alison also discusses building healthy relationships, the journey of self-discovery, and the importance of authenticity in personal branding. Ultimately, she encourages listeners to take action and believe in their ability to create change in their lives.

Takeaways

Understanding our unique minds helps us navigate relationships better.

Finding your tribe allows for vulnerability and authenticity.

Self-awareness is crucial for personal growth and decision-making.

Small steps lead to significant changes over time.

Gratitude shifts focus from negativity to positivity.

Addictions often fill a void that needs addressing.

Healthy relationships start with self-love and self-awareness.

Authenticity in branding attracts the right audience.

Self-discovery is a continuous journey influenced by our upbringing.

Taking action is essential for creating meaningful change.

Titles

Unlocking the Power of Your Mind

Finding Your Tribe: Navigating Relationships

Sound bites

"We really do think differently."

"Be kinder to yourself."

"You can do whatever you want."

Chapters

00:00 Understanding Our Unique Minds

02:46 Navigating Relationships and Finding Your Tribe

05:44 The Importance of Self-Discovery

08:41 Overcoming Information Overload

11:57 Setting Achievable Goals

14:51 Celebrating Small Wins

17:02 The Power of Gratitude

19:48 Challenging Societal Expectations

21:34 Aligning with Your Values

26:14 Understanding Addiction and Its Mindset

30:20 Navigating Relationships and Domestic Violence

35:15 The Impact of Upbringing on Relationships

39:56 Building an Authentic Personal Brand

48:17 Simplicity in Self-Care and Personal Growth

53:53 Taking Action: The First Steps to Change

Transcript

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (00:00)

Welcome, Alison Blackler from the UK. Welcome to the podcast.

Alison Blackler, 2minds (00:06)

Thank you so much for having me. I'm really looking forward to sharing this space with you.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (00:11)

Absolutely. This is, this is great fun, and we're going to learn so much. So you help people with their mindset and understanding their minds.

Alison Blackler, 2minds (00:22)

I do. I believe, and this is my own journey too, that when we understand a bit more about the relationship between the way that we're all wired, so the human brain, the way we're wired, and then you. Because we're all different, we've all got our different stories, we've got different things that have happened to us. And I believe that if we understand those two things together, then we've got an opportunity to be able to make changes and have whatever it is that you want in your life.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (00:49)

The brain and our individual, unique minds. What should everybody know about our minds that we don't know?

Alison Blackler, 2minds (00:53)

Yes.

You know, it's a brilliant question because we all know that we're all different. So we know we constantly talk about how different we are. We look different. We have different lots of different things. And yet we expect to process things similarly. So we're shocked when somebody has a different response or we don't behave in a way that somebody is expecting us to do, depending on which way we're looking at it. And I think the first thing is to remember, we really, really are all different.

We really do think differently. We see things differently, we interpret things differently. And I think remembering that, because we do know it, but when we are maybe a bit pressured or a little bit emotional, we completely forget that we are all very unique. And I think that's the bit that is so important.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (01:51)

Does this mean that sometimes when we're dealing with difficult people, we might need to give them the benefit of the doubt?

Alison Blackler, 2minds (01:57)

I think so. I think this is what's interesting, isn't it? What makes us think they're difficult is because they're different. That, you know, I mean, there are people who are difficult. You know, I think there are a few out there. But generally speaking, most people are doing things because they believe it's the right thing to do. And you might interpret that as difficult or unhelpful or rude. And actually, it's just their way. And I think when we ask ourselves the question, you know, how do, what do we get?

What do we need to do? It is about staying true to you. If you don't like something or you don't like someone, that's okay. But what are you gonna do? And I think that's where there's a lot of work that can be done differently that will improve things.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (02:43)

That's a big question, isn't it? Because we all want different things, and there's a lot of diversity now. It might sound obvious, but we have, we have so many different ways of living these days to name just a few. Some people are on the spectrum. Some people are advocating passionately throughout their everyday life for a cause, and it's all they think about. And

Some of us are passionate about our lifestyles. Mean, I'm a vegan and I don't mind what other people do, but people have all these reactions when they realise that I'm a vegan, but this, there are so many differences and divisions these days. And so do you, to what extent do you think we should find our people? And to what extent do you think we need to figure out how to navigate all these different groups that are trying to coexist in one space.

Alison Blackler, 2minds (03:42)

Great question. I think finding your people is so important because we can then be ourselves. We can be vulnerable if we need to be. They'll get us. They'll get the journey that you're on. So I think, you know, people who are in whatever it is. So, you know, we find tribes in sport, don't we? We find tribes in different music. We try finding in food. So, finding those people, I think there are some people out there who haven't found their tribe, and they are lonely. But usually that will mean that they're trying to be something maybe that they're not. So they maybe are hanging out with people who are different. So that means they're not being themselves. They might be doing two things. They might be just not being themselves and not fulfilling them their potential. But I think the other thing that I see people doing is they're trying to fit in to the wrong people, and that makes you miserable.

It generally makes you miserable. So again, it's being able to identify what you know, who you are. Loads of people don't know that. You know, it seems crazy, doesn't it? And someone says, do know who you are? And I work with lots of people who they have lost sight of themselves. They don't know who they are anymore. And that sounds absolutely crazy, but it's a truth. And I like to talk about the real stuff because there is a lot of noise out there.

A lot of stuff on social media giving the impression that it's easy and it's easy to find your tribe. No, it's not. But often it's not because you need to know who you are first. And I think that's a big question that a lot of people find quite difficult to navigate.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (05:23)

Does this mean we shouldn't simply find a group and then adapt to them? Do you think that it's more mentally healthy for us to look within and to say it more practically, figure out what feels comfortable and right and aligns with our values?

Alison Blackler, 2minds (05:43)

I think so. I think that's the work, isn't it, is to be able to work out how am I showing up, who do I need to be with so that I can be the best I can. But I think there's always a balance and a relationship between being true to yourself and having the space and the people around you. But then there are times where it is the right thing to do to go somewhere new and to adapt and to try and like...

Because we're learning, know every day we have got an opportunity to develop ourselves. And if we constantly just stay with our safety space, then that can be limiting. So it sort of sounds like I'm saying one thing and then completely contradicting myself. But I think sometimes we need to look at situations that we're all in and think, no, I'm going to stay with my people and I'm OK. And then other times you need to go, do you know what?

I need to push myself here. I need to find, and I think there's there's a balancing all the time for people to stop. And I think one of the things I notice about people is they make very quick decisions. No, can't do that. They're not my people. I'm not going. And I think there is a lot of power in just pausing, just, just pausing and thinking, right, for this situation, because every situation is different for this situation, what's the right thing for me to do? So we, I always encourage clients.

and people I talk to, to almost have like a little checklist in their mind. And sometimes you need to write the checklist down when you're about to go into a new situation. Your little checklist might be, this right for me? Do I need to push myself today? Do I actually need to not push myself today? And almost whatever would be on your checklist so that people are doing things that are right, because sometimes you do need to push yourself, but then there's other times where you need to say no and have a boundary.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (07:40)

Do you think that decision is even more important now that we're overloaded with information and media and extra-busy lives? think probably all around the world, the economy is getting a little bit weird, and often people have two or three jobs, two or three businesses, and there are so many single-parent families or all sorts of things. People are just overloaded with anything. So I'm wondering, is the decision-making?

becoming more than what it was years ago.

Alison Blackler, 2minds (08:12)

think you're right, there's more choice, there? There's more possibilities. We're aware of so much more, you know, with the internet and things. We know about things that we, like I was brought up without the internet. So, you know, I didn't know half the things that went on because we didn't know; you knew what you knew. So I think you're right that there is a lot more possibilities, a lot more to navigate. But I think the bit that matters the most is still being able to identify what is right for you in all of that noise and all of that stuff, because otherwise it can be completely overwhelming. I mean, this is again, I think, a trap that people fall into, because then we know so much. We're seeing life through a lens of, there's this and there's this, and I should be doing this and I must be doing this, and what about this over here? And actually, whoa, whoa. We are comparing ourselves, which is a pattern that the human brain does, not necessarily a good thing. We are looking at what everyone else is doing and then doubting ourselves because we think, well, I'm not good enough because I'm not doing that thing. Or there's just so much that you then don't do anything, or you become so overwhelmed that you end up not really doing things. I always say, you know, what's the one thing, the one small thing that you could do?

This week, today, or tomorrow, that's gonna just make that difference for you. And I think if we could all stay, you often hear me say, stay in your lane, be true to you, be aware. And all that stuff out here is potentially just noise. It's exciting, but it's also overwhelming.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (10:01)

That's a bit of wisdom we all need to bring our attention to. Focus on what you are doing because we could compare ourselves to so many people, but that's just excess worry, right?

Alison Blackler, 2minds (10:12)

Totally. Well, we're not comparing like for like, you know, I always say to people, if you are comparing in an aspirational way, so if you see somebody, I don't know, somebody's run a marathon and you think, do you know what? I want to run a marathon one day. Brilliant. Be aspirational towards that. But you've then got to decide how and what do you need to do for you to get to that point of doing that marathon or whatever it is that you want to do. If you just see somebody who's doing a marathon and you think, well, I couldn't do that.

Well, we you probably couldn't if you haven't started training. know, they love what that person will have done to get to that point is a lot. And we sometimes see that end goal as the, well, no, I couldn't do that. But that's because they've forgotten about all of the things that that person will have done to get to this point. And that's where comparing isn't healthy because we're not those people. We have to be true to ourselves so that we can decide, yep, that's what I wanna do. It doesn't have to be a marathon, obviously, could be whatever it is that's on your goal. And I believe that we all have dreams in us that we don't fulfil. And that's something that I love to encourage people to do.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (11:31)

to pursue their dreams.

Alison Blackler, 2minds (11:33)

Yeah, and it doesn't have to be a big thing, but to be able to, yeah, you know, I think we've all got things inside us that we would love to be able to do or would like to do. And I think for me, it's about finding those small steps towards these things rather than constantly be hard on yourself for not achieving the big thing. Let's be celebrating the small things that are towards the big thing that you might get to in the end.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (12:04)

Do you think that's part of being mentally healthy to set ourselves a progression of goals that we can reach, like steps going up towards the great goal?

Alison Blackler, 2minds (12:17)

I think that's absolutely critical. I really do. Because, you know, if you have a big goal to do something, tomorrow you could go and buy the envelope that you need to put the first application form in, I don't know, you know, that's probably a little daft example, but something really small, you're on your way. And people don't do that. They don't pause and think, 'Do you know what?' I've made a start. I've signed up to something that I'm going to do, which is a start towards the bigger thing. So yeah, having something to start with and be able to celebrate and then have some sort of steps that are going to go towards that thing. And then the other bit that I think is really important is some sort of accountability. Who are you going to tell so that they can be your cheerleaders, so that they can be the ones saying, how's it going? And, you know, without pressure, but otherwise, you know, we can probably all, most people anyway, can say that they're going to do something for themselves and then don't. But if you tell someone else or involve someone else, you're more likely to do it.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (13:26)

We say we're going to do all sorts of things. Absolutely. Years ago, I heard the silly phrase that that sort of person is a gonna, gonna do this, gonna do that, gonna do that. But it's true. We say things. So you're teaching that we need to find a personal cheerleader, not just a strict guide who's going to sort of check with you.

Alison Blackler, 2minds (13:29)

We do.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (13:53)

failed or succeeded for the day, but someone who's actually cheering you on and encouraging.

Alison Blackler, 2minds (13:59)

Yeah, somebody who's invested with you, who's going to help you, you know, and hold you if, if, you know, if a step in your plan doesn't quite work out, you need somebody who's got, because you generally, most, lot of us will be very hard on ourselves there, but you need somebody who's going to say, hey, but you've managed this bit, what's next? You know, come on, what's next? You know, sharing that, the joy or finding somebody that you can encourage each other. So they've got their little goal, you've got yours. And so, you know, so it goes on, you know, we generally have lots of big ideas and then no idea how to get started. And again, what I'm, what I like to pay attention to is all the little traps in the brain that get in our way. So one of them is comparing ourselves. Everyone else is doing it. I'm not seeing things as a failure. That's another little trap that we find ourselves in. Not celebrating the small wins, thinking, ⁓ it's only that. Well, but the brain doesn't know it's only that.

It goes, we've done something, yay, let's celebrate.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (15:03)

So it sounds like we can cheer ourselves up by appreciating the small things.

Alison Blackler, 2minds (15:10)

Definitely. And from a brain perspective, it's like a muscle, then you're stretching, you're taking yourself, I always call it the mind gym, you know, you're taking yourself to the gym. Because if you think of children, they are given feedback for everything. Even if they're colouring outside the lines, they're given feedback. Well done, you've done brilliant. So we spent years getting some level of feedback from somebody whether it's teachers, parents, aunties, whatever. And then when we become adults, stops. It literally stops. So we have to either find it from others or do it ourselves. And I think the brain is crying out for it because we had it for all those years, and then suddenly it stops. And I think that's what's one of the problems is we as adults, we become very serious and we forget to give ourselves a mini high five.

We've managed to achieve something. The brain doesn't know, the subconscious mind particularly doesn't know the difference between you smashing a massive golf, completing a degree, and you doing something really small. It actually doesn't have the context; it just has the celebration. So for me, we are missing a trick if we don't give ourselves a minute, a second to go, yeah, good.

Well done, me, I managed that thing. If you make yourself a really nice cup of tea or a nice meal, sometimes, as crazy as it sounds, you say to yourself, yeah, good me, you are giving your brain that sort of bit of nice food, really. It's like good food stuff.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (16:49)

seems to align with the gratitude that a lot of people are saying are the gratitude is actually necessary for our mental well-being, for our happiness, to prevent depression, things like that. Just in general, the public has been saying that gratitude is necessary for that.

Alison Blackler, 2minds (17:07)

I think so. I gratitude puts your attention on to something that has happened, is in front of you, is part of your life. You could be grateful for the beautiful sky, or you know, it doesn't have to be a thing. But what it helps you then do is it moves your attention away from maybe some of the things that aren't working so well. Because again, a trait of the human brain is to focus on the things that we haven't got or the things that are more negative. So being grateful, kind of

It gives you a, it's like a lens. It's like a torch. Put the torch on something I'm really grateful for right now, here today. And then you, you, again, it's that nice, nice muscle stretching thing that the mind does. So, gratitude is a really good thing. And they do say, you know, again, if you, if you're into kind of manifestation, you know, you're grateful for things, it'll bring more of those things in because you're focused on those things. Because again, the brain is wired to notice things that are on your mind. So I always use the example, if you are moving house, you're looking to sell your house, you will suddenly see all the for sale signs. And they were always there.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (18:23)

Yes.

In marketing courses, we're taught that people notice a food advertisement when they are hungry more than when they're not. So it sounds like the same thing applies for when you want something, you see it more.

Alison Blackler, 2minds (18:35)

There you go.

You do, you'll see more opportunities, you'll see, if you put your, again, when you talk about setting your goals, setting an intention that you'd like to do something, you'd like to run a marathon, let's say, and then suddenly you'll see a sign for a running group or you'll see something that's connected to it. They were always there, but we can only notice so many things. So for me, when we get really clear on what it is that we were hoping to achieve, suddenly, this stuff that just seems to be like, ⁓ and people say, 'Wow, I'm really shocked. It's a thing.'

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (19:19)

It sounds like part of how this manifestation works is simply focusing our attention in a cluttered world, focusing our attention on the things that will actually help us.

Alison Blackler, 2minds (19:29)

Yeah, will help us that matter to you, that are what is important to you. And if somebody else doesn't like it, that's okay. You know, we get very bothered by what others think of us. Get, you know, I always ask in a group of people, if I'm doing this, you know, this sort of topic in a workshop, you know, one of the first things you want to ask is who here worries about what everyone else is thinking. And because most people put their hand up, and then you look around and say, well,

Why are we doing that? Because everyone else is worried about what you're thinking, not what you're doing. So, you know, just. We are, yeah, we again, it's part of the human brain. It's because we are social animals. We're part of, know, we want to be part of the troop and the fear of being rejected. It is huge, so we will be.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (20:03)

Absolutely, we're all worried about it.

Alison Blackler, 2minds (20:21)

Worried about what everyone else is doing or thinking but you know everybody else is just doing the same or they will think something different because they are different they see the world differently so they don't think you running that marathon is a good idea because they wouldn't do it but then putting a dampener on you is where people say well I won't do it then and then I'm always interested in what happens then to your inner

kind of joy. Is it there now? Because you're not doing your thing.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (20:57)

That really happens. We make decisions based on the opinions of people who are living completely different lives. They don't have the same path moving forward. They don't have the same future or the past experiences to use as a frame of reference. So do you think that we're basing our decisions on people who don't have the information they need to even accurately advise us?

Alison Blackler, 2minds (21:12)

Let's run.

100%. And I think when you think about generations and families, your grandma or your auntie or your parents of an adult might say, 'No, I don't think, it's not a good idea to do that.' Now, it might not be. You might be gonna go and do something that is a bit crazy, but actually, their reference, their model of the world, is that they could not possibly see themselves. So they then put their worry for you and actually it's for you to be able to go, 'This is right for me, this is what I need to do.' When I used to work in the National Health Service here in the UK for 20 plus years so I had a permanent post and a pension, and security, and 15, so I was a therapist mainly I worked as a therapist in the NHS, and I worked in different specialities, so

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (22:10)

What did you do over there?

Alison Blackler, 2minds (22:19)

I worked in drugs and alcohol for five years. I worked in domestic violence for five years. I worked in safeguarding. There's something about five years. I don't know what that was all about. ⁓ But I worked predominantly with people. But what I was going to say about it was when I said I was going to leave the NHS, lots of people said to me, ⁓ you can't do that. You can't leave your security and your safety and set up your own business. But that's because they...

couldn't imagine doing that. And I had to go, I'm doing it. I'm doing it. It was the biggest thing I've ever done.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (22:54)

pitches.

actually feel like this conversation is fate. I'm so glad to be hearing that part of your story.

Alison Blackler, 2minds (23:00)

I will.

Brilliant! Yeah, people, there was lots of people who said don't do it.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (23:13)

think that story, ⁓ I do want to know how long ago that happened, but I want to really point out that these days, a lot of people are wondering should they do something independent, especially in this economy where people have also a lot more technology and they want to try different things. Experiment, see what could be created in a new way, instead of just following a large entity or following an institution. So.

What made you exit and well, a larger organisation, what made you step away from the norm, the security, the perceived security and also, but also, how long ago was that?

Alison Blackler, 2minds (23:58)

So it was 15 years ago. So, a long time ago now. Definitely, I was laughing with somebody yesterday to say I'm probably unemployable now. I've been doing this. I've been doing my own thing for far too long now. But you know, I know there's, as you said, there's lots of people out there who fear and have a lot of doubt about could I do it? And I can honestly say, if I...

If I look back to what I did do, you can. I think that's my message is you can. Yes, there's things you need to work out and put in place. But I think the biggest thing for me was just having the belief in myself that I was gonna make it happen. Because the big difference that I noticed about being self-employed compared to being employed is you are in charge. So you decide. You...

Yes, you probably work a lot more hours, but you're doing it because it's your thing, your passion. You are able to pivot. You're able to change things. If something doesn't work, as long as you be too hard on yourself, you can think, 'Right, OK, I can try this. You're open to all the opportunities and possibilities. So I know that there are probably people who might listen to this and think, financially, I just can't do it.

I know that's a massive big step and there was definitely there was times in my past where I was a bit like, oh, what, you know, what am going to do? But if you home in on that before you leave and do the leap, you won't do it. But if you stay with the, following my passion and I'm going to do it, it's amazing how you find ways to do that. And the other thing that I did do just as a for full for the full story is I did reduce my hours first. So that was my first thing I reduced. did instead of doing five days, I did four days for the NHS, so that I had three days, because obviously I was working the weekend then to develop what I had. And then that almost was the gate then, because I was like, okay, I really want to do this now. And I think the other thing for me personally was while in NHS here,

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (26:19)

you

Alison Blackler, 2minds (26:23)

It is incredible and we are very lucky to have it. It's changed a lot, and in my 24 years I it wasn't the same anymore; it was different, and I was struggling a little bit with my values because my ⁓ the opportunity to make the difference was changing because of some of the limitations. So some of the limitations within the NHS, for example ⁓

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (26:45)

How?

Alison Blackler, 2minds (26:50)

You know, if you came for therapy, you would be allowed six sessions. And that was that. And that really isn't enough for some people. So I felt like I was part of something that wasn't quite working. And actually, now in those 15 years, it's like changed a million times over again. So I'm glad I'm not in there anymore. But, you know, obviously, my big advocate still for it. So I think, you know, people often talk about their values being

affected by the behaviours, maybe in a business or in the organisation that you work for. And I think again, piece of work is to get clear on what your values are, because then you can pay attention to when you feel good, it's because you're fulfilling them and when you're not feeling good, it's because they're probably being neglected or even violated, you know, by a business or by the people around you.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (27:44)

I really am curious. Firstly, I want to ask about the work that you do now, but first, you mentioned having worked in the addiction area and with people who struggled with addiction. And I'm really curious about the mindset of people who are overcoming any sort of addiction because there are the obvious ones, the substances, but we hear these days about people being addicted to devices or being a workaholic or all sorts of things. What's your perspective on that?

Alison Blackler, 2minds (28:19)

I there are, I mean, let's just say, if it's a, if my experience was in drugs and alcohol, so I was using predominantly working with heroin users. So there is the physical side of some addictions. But I think the thing with addictions, usually, and this is a very general comment, there's usually something that isn't working for them internally. So there's something that is.

They're unhappy about, they've got deep trauma, they've got something that is unresolved. And then having a behaviour that they can do is a distraction, is a helpful, it becomes almost a protective piece that you then do, I'm doing this, and that means I don't have to then deal with this. So sometimes we end up getting hooked on things.

because they are sort of serving us. They're serving the mind. They're giving us comfort. They're giving us fun. They're giving us safety. They're helping, but it usually means, and I can say this is a very broad description, but it usually means that there's something that isn't, you know, people go shopping, get addicted to shopping. There's something that it's filling the gap. It's filling some sort of a void which,

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (29:43)

filling a void.

Alison Blackler, 2minds (29:47)

hasn't been processed or hasn't been dealt with. So it's either an avoidance, a distraction or a kind of filling the void. That's usually why we get... Because we've all got things that we do regularly that are almost, I can't do it without. What I'm always interested in is what is unhealthy? We need to have lots of habits. The brain does well. It likes repetition.

So it does well to have a habit in things. So we have a habit to drink water, we have a habit to do things, you clean your teeth every day. We have lots and lots of habits. It's sometimes just identifying ones that, while they have a purpose and while they probably do give us a thing, it's looking for the ones that actually, if you're being really honest with yourself, they're not, because they end up causing another problem. So people get hooked on social media.

And then they're annoyed with themselves because they've spent two hours, and then they've really crossed because they've like wasted in their mind two hours. So for me, it's like, well, if that's what you've done, just be okay with that. Be okay that you've spent that time, but then what are you going to do next?

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (30:58)

Thank

So make peace with the decision that was made previously and then simply live differently moving forward instead of, guess, shame or something like that? Is that what happens?

Alison Blackler, 2minds (31:16)

Yeah, I mean whatever your addiction is it for me you we need to start with being okay with whatever it is be kinder to yourself because otherwise you do the thing and Then you're annoyed and then you're upset with yourself Then you feel the shame then you feel a guilt then you feel frustrated Then you feel overwhelmed because you've wasted all this time or you spent all this money or you've done all this whatever For me, it's whatever it is stop

Think about what you're doing, be kinder. We all need to be kinder. I said something yesterday about when we are unkind to ourselves. For a lot of people, if you spoke to your friends the way that you speak to yourself, you would have no friends.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (32:04)

One line is something that we need to keep in mind. And I'm ready to pivot a little bit because you also mentioned how you worked with domestic violence. And I just want to visit that very, very briefly because I'm going to assume that a lot of people end up in a situation. Maybe they gradually, gradually developed a situation over time. And then do they end up feeling dark? Do they wonder how could life be different? What did you see in terms of people being in a life that they couldn't keep tolerating and how did they dig themselves out of the hole?

Alison Blackler, 2minds (32:49)

So for a lot of people, again, it's a little bit like the addiction. We end up in situations, so that might be relationships, that can be friendships, that can be all sorts of things, that are, again, filling something. So if we think about a relationship and we think about, we get involved with somebody, and they make us feel great.

And it's all going fantastic and you feel loved and it feels fantastic because you may be not doing... and the first thing to say here is often when it starts going wrong it's because you're not doing it for yourself so you're not doing self-love so you're hoping that somebody else is going to fill that gap and of course the minute you put the pressure or the emphasis on somebody else making you feel... when I hear people say you know he makes me feel happy that's...

Yes, of course, people do things and that makes us feel good. But if you're relying on that, usually relationships start going wrong when somebody is trying to get something from the other person. There's a big pressure or in most ⁓ abusive relationships, it's usually all around self-confidence. know, people are usually insecure. The persecutors are usually insecure people in some level.

They might not think they are. They might think that they are the, you know, I'm all right. But actually inside, wouldn't be behaving in a controlling way or ⁓ in a nasty way, because they often end up putting people down because that makes them feel good. And then that becomes the abuse and then it sort of spirals. Getting out of those relationships can be very difficult for all sorts of reasons. Sometimes it's financial, sometimes it's fear.

But quite often it is that they've got so used to being treated in this way that they don't know how to treat themselves better. So they don't know that you're finding, again, and I'm talking very generally here, but finding a way to put yourself first and say, 'This is not okay with me,' can be against everything that's been happening for all those times that they've been with this person.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (35:09)

Actually, there's a question. If, if some people have been so used to seeing, well, being treated the wrong way for a long time, maybe they were bullied a lot in a space or whatever it might be, and it sort of became the norm for whatever reason, how do they know what to look for? How do they navigate?

finding something that's good and accepting, trusting something that's good.

Alison Blackler, 2minds (35:44)

I think that's a brilliant question because quite often people who have had a challenging time in a relationship, and it can stem from a family relationship. They might have watched their own parents behave like this. They might not know what good relationship looks like. They might not know what does real love look like. So quite often they sabotage things. So they might get out of that first relationship.

then they're completely sabotaged. The next one, which might have been quite a good relationship because they don't know how to behave and they don't know what it looks like. So I think that's a brilliant thing for people to pay attention to is finding what love means to you or what a healthy relationship means to you. And that would be a journey that people would need to go on. ⁓ And it is something that I share. I've actually got a book.

about relationships for that reason to help people navigate the highs and lows of relationships because they're tough. know, relationships are not easy, but the biggest relationship that you need to work on is the relationship you have with yourself. And then when you do that, you'll have a more successful relationship with someone else. And that's a friendship, but we all know that the closer the person is, the more challenging it is. And that's just...

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (37:04)

challenging.

Alison Blackler, 2minds (37:05)

Yeah, think that, you know, so we have the way we are with friends. But if you've got an intimate relationship, so the minute you are more close with somebody, it becomes more complex, partly because you barriers are let down. So we tend to be more ourselves than nearer the person is and other people. Friends are a bit nearer, but then colleagues would be a bit further away. And, know, you are less likely to be your true self.

But when we are in close, sort of romantic relationships, we're much more likely to behave, ⁓ often, most people can be honest with themselves and say how you behave in a relationship, you wouldn't let your colleagues see you be like that, stropping around or doing, you we all do it. And I always think, you know, if you were brought up in a family, you will have been more true.

To who you were in the family with your siblings or your parents, you'll have been more just there yourself. And I always think that when we grow up and we become in a relationship, we almost take that from being with family to being with one person. And we are more likely to show our vulnerable side, to let things go. And that's healthy. That's the healthy side of being in an intimate relationship is we can be ourselves and let that guard down. But when it gets unhealthy is where the behaviours are not kind or not serving us. And unfortunately, there are a lot of people who do feel quite trapped. And you did say, didn't you, how do they get out of it? I mean, that is a journey. It's one that I would always, especially if it's quite abusive, I would always say needs to be thought through. You know, some people do leave a relationship like literally they've had enough and they go, they walk. In my professional experience, I saw a lot of that, particularly women, when they could see that enough now for their child. A lot of people's relationships will end because they cannot put their kid through that anymore. And that's right, you should do that. But it's never easy and there's a risk.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (38:57)

it.

Alison Blackler, 2minds (39:25)

always of them going back because they're caught up in the coercive behaviour that goes on.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (39:34)

It's so complicated. And so are you suggesting that the way we relate in our close relationships will be influenced by how we related to people growing up in our families?

Alison Blackler, 2minds (39:48)

Yeah, quite often we can be, you know, if you think of whoever brought you up, that would be what you would think a model of a relationship was, your mum and your dad or whoever brought you up, whatever they did, without other information, that's all you've got. So then you either model that and you just become that, you just become a mini version of what they were, or like in my experience, I didn't want to be like that.

So I made a conscious decision to learn how to be different to that. But again, that's not something you can just decide to do because the way that we are wired is unconsciously that coding from what you experienced, what you saw, how your caregivers, whoever brought you up, how they show love.

or not, will become how you behave in a relationship. And then there's all sorts of other layers of how we'll all show up differently. And then, of course, you meet somebody else and they might be more, say you've been brought up where a lot of love wasn't demonstratively shown, and then you might meet somebody who's really touchy feely and wants to be, and you can, you'll either go, ooh, or you'll learn.

to kind of embrace that and maybe make some changes there. So again, for me, it's about making sure that people don't feel they have to change, but there's always an opportunity to make a change when we meet new people. And that doesn't have to be relationship, that could just be a friend. You meet a friend and you become, we're constantly, we're emerging all the time, aren't we, as humans, we're constantly changing by, you know, meet somebody new and you can look back on yourself and think, wow, look at me, I'm so.

you know, more confident or whatever.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (41:42)

Absolutely. It sounds like we can apply those lessons to interacting with communities as well of various types.

Alison Blackler, 2minds (41:50)

Definitely, I mean, I think that's where there's, talked earlier about the noise out there and all the stuff. It's not all great at all, is it? But you know, what impact can we make within our own bubble, I call it, you your own family, your own relationship, your own community, your own team, and what positively things can we all do, you know, that collective consciousness? you know, I think some for some.

they can get, if you tap into the bigger stuff, it can feel really scary and quite overwhelming. And actually, I think we need to try and come back to something that's within your bubble.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (42:31)

to pivot slightly to a daring question. If someone is trying to develop a personal brand and do their own independent business, kind of like what you're doing, but in whatever specialty they have, then what steps should they take to figure out their authenticity and figure out their style after perhaps being in very conforming spaces?

Alison Blackler, 2minds (43:00)

I think it's a brilliant question, isn't it? And I'm sure it's a question that you must ask all the time about being, you know, that authenticity. Mean, it's a word that's used a lot these days. And I do think it's got a bit diluted. I think you really need to work out who you are. You know, for me, it's about really tapping into what do you love? You know, if you were asked to go and look for images on animals, shoes, flowers and cakes for example and you had to go and find pictures on the internet of ones that you loved. We would all bring slightly different pictures, wouldn't we? Some would bring pictures with vibrant colours and and really bright things, and other people would bring pictures of different, you know and then asking ourselves what is it about that that makes the difference, but I think one of the things that I think is really interesting about us all is

What we think about ourselves and what people who know us think about ourselves often isn't aligned. It's not the same. And I always think it can be quite an interesting piece of work to do to talk about how other people see us. What do they see in you? know, people. And then how do we lean into that? How do we become more of what others think of us? Because so often, somebody can say something about themselves and everybody who knows them is like, really? I didn't know you felt like that about yourself because on the outside we can often look something. So I'm always keen to stay in our lane, be ourselves, but be curious about what, your stretches are and your stretches can often be identified by somebody else saying, this is what I see in you. And if they, and that could be part of your branding, couldn't it? Part of your, of your visibility is to be a bit more like that. It's a big piece of work, isn't it, if people are trying to work out what it is that they need to do. I think we all need, because I always think with marketing and things like this, if you don't show up as yourself on your marketing, so you might have an amazing brochure and it's all singing and dancing, but then you then show up and you're different to that, people are like,

How they going to buy off you if they don't like see you in your marketing? Cause you're going to show up. know, if I, people watch this today and then saw something very different on my stuff, they'd like, ⁓ she's not the same. I like to be the same. am who I am. very open. You you've asked me all sorts of things. That's how I am on everything that I do. people, that's, I think that's the biggest thing, isn't it? Is to, to.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (45:43)

doesn't feel consistent.

Alison Blackler, 2minds (45:57)

To work out what your energy, what your vibe is, what your offer is. And also the other thing that I hear a lot of people talk about is where do we make up some of the rules about what needs to go on? So for example, if we were to talk about social media, LinkedIn, you oh, needs, you need to be formal on there. You need to be professional. Where does it say that?

I literally say, if your business is very professional and what you offer is very professional, then go for it and show up in that way. But if it isn't, why are we trying to fit into these boxes that really aren't, nobody doesn't say on LinkedIn, only ever come on here if you're a professional, if you're being professional even, does it?

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (46:49)

I'm about your definition of professional there. I'm guessing you're talking about the very formal conforming robotic style.

Alison Blackler, 2minds (46:58)

Yeah, like corporate. You know, I remember when I set up my business 15 years ago, you know, I was told you need a video that's very kind of, you know, very professional and coming across and da, da, da, da. Really, really, you know, if that's not me, there are people who need to be like that. You know, if you wanted to go to a lawyer or something like that, maybe you would want them to be very like that because that will help you trust them.

because they are being what you think. Because that's the other thing about humans, isn't it? We make up what we think somebody should be like. We make up that a lawyer should be in this way. We make up that an accountant should be this way. We make up that a farmer should be this way. And then, really, you then meet people and do they fit or not? I this is something that I'm really interested in is we make these stereotypes or these judgments that know a certain person, somebody should be a certain way, but they're also different. How does that you know there are traits for sure you know you'd imagine an accountant would be very good at attention to detail and very interested in that sort of thing but it doesn't mean that they have to be there with a suit and a tie and this and that and that's where I really want to you know that's why I love having these kind of conversations because I think we need to break down some of this stuff.

that is getting in our way. Who says, where's it written that we need to do any of these things? If it's you and your brand and your business or whatever it is you want to offer, what is it that you need to do? Why do we need to feel like we've got to do what everyone else is doing?

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (48:47)

You probably can stand out more as well if you are being you because surely if you're copying everybody else, then why would someone pick something that's the same?

Alison Blackler, 2minds (48:57)

I love that exactly. Why would someone pick you? You need to show up as you, and then your customers will find you, or your people will find you. You know, they often say, don't they, when you are clear on what you are offering, then you shine the light on the people that need you, that need to hear that. Even a podcast like this, you know, there's thousands of podcasts out there. You know, what is it that makes people want to lean into your stuff?

And that again is part of your marketing.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (49:29)

Actually, that's really interesting because this podcast turned into a focus on how people who are doing interesting work can look after themselves. And I loved asking these questions with you because there are so many different ways that we need to look after ourselves. And with some other guests, it has meant, 'What are we going to eat, or how are we going to be mindful?'

But with you, it was going to very much the the basic essentials of even believing that we can do something different, believing we can change, believing we can have happy relationships.

Alison Blackler, 2minds (50:17)

It starts with that, it really does. And you know, sometimes I hear myself saying or reminding people that, you know, sometimes the best things that we can do are so simple. They are so, so simple. You know, I think that's where we get a bit overwhelmed with all these complex things that we think we need to do. And actually, really, if we got the real simple basics right, you if we were able to set an intention for the day and be able to be happy with what we've achieved by the of the day, we'd be so much happier. And then when we're happier, so much more happens.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (50:53)

The little simple things that's what it is. I've seen some, documents in the allied health space. And sometimes it's from a very good intention and it's what's expected that basically you have pages upon pages of jargon that doesn't actually tell us, okay, but what are we actually going to do?

Alison Blackler, 2minds (51:14)

Exactly, exactly. And I think that's when people then switch off and they become overwhelmed because it's not clear what is needed or what people are asking. Or we've loaded a load of other stuff on the top that isn't even there. You sometimes people say things to me and I'll often, as a coach, I'll ask them, you

Who said who's who told you that or where did you get that piece of information from or? You know where did where why is it that you've thought that and quite often people pause and be like Absolutely, no idea. Nobody's told me to do that. Nobody has suggested that whatsoever, and it's just a complete internal Because this chitchat in here's can be very noisy It can be giving us all sorts of who do you think you are what you can't do that what you're doing next you know nobody will be interested in buying from you or nobody will want to watch my podcast or whatever and that's all a load of rubbish. If we're clear on what we're doing, the right people will find us, and that's the joy of the array of stuff that's out there, because there's some podcasts for example if we stick to that, that won't be for me and you, but that's okay, because they'll be for someone, and that's okay too.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (52:38)

There would be so many types of podcasts, and I just listened to a few favourites, but I'm sure there are some that go for three hours, and I'm not going to have a three-hour conversation as much as some of these really could have, but I feel like I need to draw the line somewhere. And you have the podcasts that are a lot more structured with it. A set of questions, but I love going with the flow. That really works.

Alison Blackler, 2minds (53:03)

Yeah, that's me.

Well, I've got a podcast. I'm not recording at the moment, but I've got a podcast, and I always had a guest and we had a topic, but we would just go wherever we needed to go because that's useful. think it's in flow, and you talk about being authentic, then it's not forced. You know, I have not got a script here that I'm reading off at all. Everything that I've said is literally just come from me and my experience. And part of that is my own experience because I wasn't confident when I was younger. And that's something else that I, you know, really open to say. I have done lots of things in my life that have, you know, haven't worked out or, you know, put myself in situations, relationships and bits and pieces that where I wasn't believing in myself. And I decided to learn how to do that. And then I've ended up offering that as a service and as a business. And, you know, I am, I'm living proof that you can do whatever you want. I wouldn't be doing what I'm doing now if I hadn't been on that journey. But the bit that you have to remember is it's not a quick journey. If you are unravelling past stuff and being able and you don't, people often think, does that mean I've got to go into huge therapy? Not necessarily, not necessarily. It's just finding the little steps and making those changes.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (54:27)

That's the big encouragement that I'm seeing from this conversation that when we're stepping away from a difficult situation, realising that it's okay if it takes time, that has been really reassuring, because maybe it's partly cultural that we always want the quick fix, but sometimes if we're really desperate to escape something, you just want it instantly. But there's a lot of compassion we can have for ourselves in knowing that it simply will take time because it does.

Alison Blackler, 2minds (55:01)

Yeah, I think sometimes we can make a decision quite quickly that moves us along, but actually wanting the full kind of finished article, you know, it's the cake in the oven, isn't it? You've got to wait for the half an hour for it to cook. It's a bit like that. But I think one of the things that I see a lot of people who are a bit stuck is they don't make decisions.

they're disabled by the lack of decision making for all the reasons for fear, what's everyone else think, what's everyone else doing, all the things that we've talked about, and actually just making a decision. So if there's something that someone is listening to this podcast today and they've been, whether it's procrastination or whether it's fear, if there's something that you are making that first decision, make the decision to do, even if it's, don't know what you're going to do, but make a decision that you're going to do something different. Even if you just decide that, even if you haven't quite got what you're going to do, make a decision that today you're going to decide to make that different thing in your life. And I think be conscious of that, you know, because so much of what happens with us all is totally out of our awareness. It's just all happening on our behalf. And for me, just being really conscious and saying, 'Do you know what I listened to this podcast the other day,' and they were saying just decide that something is going to be different. I don't quite know how. Not sure how you know, I feel a bit overwhelmed, but I'm just gonna decide. No enough now or something that in itself changes the page projection of it

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (56:48)

After the decision, I'm guessing your next step for anyone would be to take those small achievable steps, no matter what it is.

Alison Blackler, 2minds (57:00)

Yeah, so you can either just keep making a step up as you go along, or as we said earlier, maybe it's about, okay, what might be on the steps. Sometimes getting with somebody else, get with your friend, get with somebody, you can say, okay, if I wanted to achieve this, what would I need to do? You know, I think a marathon is a great metaphor. You know, if you wanted to, if I want to run a marathon, I won't be running one tomorrow. I would have to plan.

And I'd have to get fit, I'd have to do, you know, over time. If you saw it like that, saw it as right, what would I do? So if I was gonna run the marathon, I need to go and start running, first of all. So I need to start running short, and I need to do that for so many days. That's why those apps, there's apps out there, isn't there, that help you with things like that. You wanna create something like that for your dream, whatever that might be.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (57:54)

And it sounds like we now have a practical couple of steps of the decision, and then knowing what we need to do, figuring out what we need to do, and they are the two things anyone can do in whatever metaphorical marathon they might have.

Alison Blackler, 2minds (58:11)

Yeah, just believe if you're passionate enough about it. Honestly, I believe and it's not just sitting there hoping it's going to happen. You've still got to take action. But if you're passionate about something, find a way, find the ways to do it. Because I think otherwise, you will be leaving yourself without that joy. Or if there's part of it that's absolutely out of your reach at the moment, that's OK.

what is, what could be the steps to make that happen.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (58:47)

Alison, thank you so much. I can see that we have really created value here and I to thank you for your time. Thanks for coping with me talking after a dinner time in my time zone.

Alison Blackler, 2minds (59:02)

I know, know, bless you. It's midday here in the UK, and I know you're probably getting ready to have your quiet time in the evening. So I appreciate this time together. It's been lovely.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (59:15)

Yes, thank you so much.

Alison Blackler, 2minds (59:17)

So welcome.

Summary

In this enlightening conversation, Jessica Gammell-Bennett shares her journey as a psychotherapist and life coach, emphasising the importance of community, advocacy, and personal healing. She discusses her experiences with neurodivergent children, the challenges of navigating educational systems, and her personal battle with cancer. Jessica highlights the significance of nutrition, exercise, and emotional support in overcoming chronic fatigue and ADHD, advocating for a more compassionate and understanding approach to parenting and education.

Show Notes Keywords

psychotherapy, life coaching, neurodivergent children, advocacy, community support, cancer recovery, chronic fatigue, ADHD, nutrition, exercise

Takeaways

Jessica emphasises the need for educational systems to adapt to neurodivergent children.

Advocacy is crucial for parents navigating special education systems.

Community support plays a vital role in healing and recovery.

Nutrition and supplementation can significantly impact mental health and energy levels.

Exercise, especially trampoline jumping, can help manage ADHD symptoms.

Listening to others and understanding different perspectives fosters connection.

Personal experiences can drive professional paths in therapy and coaching.

Chronic fatigue can often be linked to mineral deficiencies.

Collective energy healing can have profound effects on health.

Finding joy in small treats and community meals enhances well-being.

Titles

Navigating Parenting Challenges with Jessica Gammell-Bennett

The Power of Community in Healing

Sound bites

"You have to keep pushing."

"We are not meant to heal in isolation."

"We are designed to be communal."

Chapters

00:00 Introduction to Jessica Gammell-Bennett

03:35 Navigating Parenting Challenges with Neurodivergent Children

09:48 Reforming Educational Systems for Autonomy

12:21 Empowering Parents to Advocate for Their Children

18:00 The Role of Community in Advocacy

22:42 Overcoming Fear and Embracing Connection

30:00 Jessica's Journey with Cancer and Healing

31:35 The Healing Symbol and Personal Loss

32:30 Facing a Terminal Diagnosis

34:03 The Power of Advocacy in Healthcare

37:08 Energy Healing and Community Support

42:04 The Science of Life Force Energy

45:40 The Importance of Community and Nutrition

48:31 Finding Joy in Moderation

49:28 Overcoming Chronic Fatigue

53:33 Understanding ADHD and Executive Function

57:18 Practical Solutions for ADHD Management

01:00:41 The Role of Advocacy and Community in Healing

Transcript

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (00:01)

Jessica Gammell-Bennett, welcome to the podcast.

Jessica Gammell-Bennett (00:00)

Yeah.

Thank you so much, Melanie. I'm so glad to be here. I appreciate the invite.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (00:10)

Absolutely. It's amazing to see your professional and personal background and what you're sharing with the world. You are a psychotherapist and life coach, but you also have a lot of personal journeys that you have overcome and very publicly shared, such as struggling as a mom, chronic fatigue and overcoming cancer. So with all of these stories, I'll let you tell the story.

What was your journey?

Jessica Gammell-Bennett (00:42)

Yeah, so I am a mom and a step-mama for boys. ⁓ Three of them, well, all of them are neurodivergent. Three of them are on the autism spectrum. Two of them are profoundly gifted. Two of them have a type of autism known as PDA, pathological demand avoidance. I think it's a terrible title. I prefer a persistent drive for autonomy.

And that experience is what drove me into becoming a family life coach and a psychotherapist because I realised that the systems that we have in place do not work for these children. A lot of

Autism treatment is what's called ABA or Applied Behaviour Analysis, and for children with PDA, yeah, Applied Behaviour Analysis is like, it's basically training ⁓ with consistent rewards and prompts.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (01:36)

What is that?

Jessica Gammell-Bennett (01:51)

It's training children on social cues and basically being able to sort of fit in with the customs and mores of society. And what we find with PDA children is that when you try and gain compliance from them.

They will go into fight or flight. Their sympathetic nervous system will get triggered. Their threat response will get triggered. And you will see them either have an epic tantrum, and it can be pretty epic. It can involve throwing things. It can involve screaming. can just a rage like you've never seen. It can also involve just completely shutting down.

So we know the nervous system, the sympathetic nervous system, this is, takes us back to, let's say, in ancient times, we were being chased by a tiger. Okay. Our body is going to do one of four things, or actually, I'll use an even better example. Let's say our village is attacked by another, by invaders. This is a better example. Our body is going to, we're going to do one of four things. We're going to fight. We're going to stand and fight. We're going to take flight, right?

Okay, we're going to freeze, play dead basically, or we're going to fawn. We're going to make nice with the invaders so they don't kill us. Okay?

Our body is still designed like this. Our nervous system is still designed like this. So the people pleasers, those are the fawners. The people who are sort of avoidant and sort of run, okay, from a conflict, those are the runners. People who get triggered and have tantrums and rages, those are the fighters. You don't really have control over which one you do.

So with kids who have PDA, you'll see them, first of all, they'll have issues when they're very young, going to like preschool, for example. Okay. These are the kiddos that you'll see screaming in front of the school because they don't want to go in the school. And what are people, all the people around the kid, trying to do? They're trying to gain compliance from him. They're not understanding that his or her threat response has been activated.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (03:34)

We don't.

Jessica Gammell-Bennett (03:58)

So what we know about these kiddos and what the research is starting to show us is that they are genetically predisposed to have higher cortisol levels. Cortisol is a stress hormone. So what happens is they're already up here with their stress hormone, right? And then a demand is made of them, and then their sympathetic nervous system gets triggered like this. Now, children who have trauma can do this too.

So I had this child that sort of was a preschool dropout. At one point, he wouldn't even leave the house. I had to shut down my holistic practice, become a stay-at-home mom, and figure out how to help this child. I did the research and I realised that he had high cortisol levels. I started giving him magnesium, and it was a game-changer. So suddenly, his debilitating anxiety was much better. He wasn't tantruming far as much as he was in the beginning when he was three years old. And over time, I learned how to make demands of him, for example, using a lot of if-then strategies. You can have your TV time after your room is clean, you know, these kind of things.

And in my clinical practice now as a psychotherapist, I work in community-based family health as well. I work with a lot of these children, and I have a theory, and this might sound crazy, but I think this is the next step of our evolution. I think these children have a persistent drive for autonomy because this is like how the species is going to evolve.

So if we want systems that give people the personal freedom that they need to serve, be of service to the world in the way that they want to, and not always have to be about compliance. We're gonna have to have humans walking around on this earth who are not going to be so easily compliant. And once I started to see it through that framework, everything changed. Everything changed for me.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (06:20)

You're saying that the systems need to adapt to the way kids are instead of, so it's too hard to change kids to fit the mould of a system that really developed decades ago and hasn't changed that much. Do you think so?

Jessica Gammell-Bennett (06:37)

Absolutely.

Yeah, I think we have a lot of compliance-based systems. I was a high school teacher too, so I have experience with this. And I found that I got the best results when I did not expect compliance. I built relationships, I built connection, I gave choices. I gave that freedom for people to be their authentic self, right? And students appreciated it, you know?

These kids are not easy to raise, I will tell you that. So if people listening to your podcast recognise this, my heart is with you. It will, go ahead.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (07:18)

Thank you so much.

No, I just want to thank you so much for saying that for a second. think that families need that because we are sometimes surrounded by professionals who are wondering how a child can fit the mould, or at least there are some people who will assume the parents should just do this and do that and then everything will be okay. But you're acknowledging it's a struggle. It simply will be.

Jessica Gammell-Bennett (07:46)

Right.

It simply will be. The thing is, so my child has in the States, I don't know, you probably have this in Australia, but we have IEPs, individualised education programs. So my 10-year-old has one of those, and he has gifted services as well. So he gets social-emotional help, and he gets the gifted services. You know, there's a whole lot of extra help that he's getting, but he's thriving now. And the thing that I had to realise was I wasn't going to make him fit the mould.

I had to go to the school and get the school to fit him. And it's a public school. But he, you know, the special education team at his school was willing to work with me. They respected my background, my credentials, that I was his mother, and I knew him best. And they let me be a part of creating that education plan with them collaboratively. The child is thriving. So I think we need to really not be afraid to challenge systems, especially for our children, on behalf

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (08:55)

We need to.

I think this is one of the most transformational recordings that I've done, to be honest with you. I am wondering, I can assume the school listened to you even more because you also have the professional background. And I'm wondering what advice do you have to parents, where some people out there will not, they won't

Jessica Gammell-Bennett (08:58)

Yeah.

Yay!

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (09:25)

the same weight or credibility to a parent who doesn't have the mainstream qualifications. This came from very intelligent backgrounds in other areas, other specialties, and we might just not have that particular specialty. So, what can parents do to really be heard? Do they need to find the right expert to back them up? Do they need to find some online resources to back up what they're saying? What can they do?

Jessica Gammell-Bennett (09:57)

Absolutely. It's interesting, like in the UK, they have schools for PDA children. So they're much more advanced than we are in the States. There's an organisation in the States called PDA North America. That's a great resource because what parents can do is they can basically bring resources from that website. They're spearheading the effort to get it recognised in the States. Into the school. And what they need to know is if you're in the states, okay, federal law mandates that once a parent contacts a principal and requests an evaluation for an individualised education plan, they have 90 days to comply with that evaluation. 90 days. They have to get it done. Those are your legal rights. And if you do not get compliance from the principal, on getting an evaluation for your child, you need to go to the school board. And if that doesn't work, then you need to go to the media, whatever. But everyone knows in the States that this is a federal law, and they're mandated to do it. So I have never had a parent not be able to find somebody who would finally say, Yeah, we need to do the evaluation on this child.

The thing about PDA kids is they are so smart usually that they will not appear to have autism. Like they won't have the red flags, you know? And so that's the greatest challenge. I had to take my son to a specialist in Massachusetts and I live in North Carolina. So that's quite a trip. ⁓

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (11:27)

Right.

How far away is that? Just for context.

Jessica Gammell-Bennett (11:38)

And it's a plane ride. Yeah. It's so it's like the southern United States to the northern United States. Yeah. I to take them all the way to Boston. Yeah. Yeah. It's a trip. So what I would say is lean on the regulations, lean on the law, lean on your rights. ⁓

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (11:40)

It's trip. ⁓

Jessica Gammell-Bennett (11:59)

And you have to just keep pushing. You have to keep pushing. Get your resources. Look up pathological demand avoidance. Try and find a therapist that will help you. Try and find a therapist. If you say you have Medicaid, which in this country is like, you know, what low-income families have. A lot of my clients and community-based family services have Medicaid. ⁓

If you have Medicaid, then you can get a lot of organisations to help you. You can get free clinical therapy. There are resources for you, and you can get care managers to help you. So there are advocates, social workers. I'm a licensed clinical social worker, so I'm a therapist, but what I studied was clinical social work.

Social workers are probably your best bet ⁓ because they're so resource-rich. Social workers are trained to be really rich in resources and finding new resources. So if you're in the States, look for somebody who is an LCSW. Licensed clinical mental health counsellors are also excellent because they're very holistic in their training. They're going to want to look at exercise, mindfulness, like nutrition, those lifestyle elements as well. Nutrition is super important for these kids.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (13:21)

It really is. Would you say that wherever someone is in any country, people with those sorts of specialties are going to look at the whole picture and check what in the environment needs to change, instead of just putting it all on the child or the individual to change?

Jessica Gammell-Bennett (13:39)

And the thing is, these children who are struggling are the canaries in the coal mine.

Right? So, you remember the canary in the coal mine, the miners would bring the canary down in the cage. And if the canary died, then the air was toxic. Okay? So children who are people who are canaries in a coal mine are just showing you what's wrong with the system. They're just more sensitive. And that sensitivity is actually a beautiful thing because it's showing us where we need to change. So if a child is struggling in a system, it's not the child, it's the system that needs to change.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (14:15)

need to ask, have you ever seen someone feeling a bit scared of becoming a whistleblower or standing up to people in authority who are maybe trying to cover their backs, maybe just don't want to change, don't want to admit they don't know everything? Have you seen people facing those sorts of challenges, and how do you navigate that?

Jessica Gammell-Bennett (14:40)

Yeah, yeah, I have. Yes, I absolutely have. And the thing is, you know, unfortunately, the more income you have, the more power you have, we all know that, okay? And that's why we need to find advocates. So if you feel that you don't have the power to stand up against someone who's just not listening to you, say, I don't know, a principal, and I'm very pro, you know, public education. I was a public high school teacher, so I'm not, I'm not.

know, throwing shade at educators at all. I love educators. I was an educator. But if it's a, but I've also been on the side of being a parent, right? And I've been very blessed in my journey with my child in the public school system, but I have seen some of my clients and community-based that have not been so blessed. And I would say that's when you have to find an advocate for you. There are organisations that will help and assist parents who have special needs children whose rights are not being respected. And so reach out to them, ⁓ find those resources, call your local department. People are scared of social services because they're the baby snatchers, whatever, but actually...

Most people that work in these professions do genuinely want to help, you know, and so they will have resources, they will know about organisations that you can contact and connect to to get help with advocacy.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (16:13)

If someone wants to become an advocate, is that something that mainly the medical people should be becoming or have you seen anyone with lived experience exploring some sort of way to advocate for others after they've seen, okay, this is how the system works. I wanted to share what I learned about navigating the system, share that with more people and help for more.

Jessica Gammell-Bennett (16:18)

Nice.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (16:41)

problems to be solved. Have you seen that happening?

Jessica Gammell-Bennett (16:44)

Absolutely. So the most powerful and the largest local organisations that I've noticed are parents who have special needs children whose children's needs have not been attended to properly. And they've had to become advocates, and they kind of create these organisations on Facebook and in person, where they band together to do the research. ⁓ And you know they're usually like Facebook groups or so you know groups on social media where one mom can post in the group and say, hey, this is what happened today, help. And then all the other moms will jump in and be like, Okay, this is what you need to do. This is who you need to call. ⁓ And that's going to be your best way. So knowledge is power, numbers are power, right? And I think that's how we're going to start to see a seed change. The most powerful people are parents, especially mothers. Those are the people who are going to make these changes.

And when we support each other, because in the culture there's a lot of, I think, moms are pitted against each other, whether it's over working mom versus stay-at-home mom, breastfeeding versus formula, all the things, right? And I think if we can cut through that and not allow ourselves to be pitted against each other and just support each other and connect through our common humanity, which is our love for our children and our wanting the best for our children. I think that's where our power comes from, and we can create these groups. If you can't find a group, create it because there's somebody else out there who wants to be part of that group and who feels like they're alone and they need to know that they're not.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (18:30)

feel so positively overwhelmed by that because you're not the first one to recently tell me, reach out to the other people in similar situations. So, what I saw in what you were saying was that we need to unite despite our differences. And so that could go beyond mothers, but I wanted to add another category to that, to what you said, because

Jessica Gammell-Bennett (18:40)

Yeah.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (18:57)

As hearing from people on both ends of the political spectrum who just want everybody to be okay. And I'm very concerned at the moment that there are some people who need a bit of reassurance. And if you do genuinely show them, look, these, some people are from different political groups or social groups, but they're just as concerned about precisely the same thing about everybody being okay. Do you agree that?

We all need to just get over our differences to help.

Jessica Gammell-Bennett (19:30)

So it's so funny that you asked me this question because I posted a video to my Instagram this evening, and it was about this moment, and I, you know, wanted to just say what's happening in the consciousness. The thing is the way that you lose power is to focus on differences and to allow yourself to be polarised. Right? It's their fault, right? Because their beliefs are different than mine. The way that you gain power is to connect to people, especially when they have different beliefs and join together.

on what you share. So, going back to parenting, mothers, right? On all sides of the political spectrum. But it's also realising that this is how we are disempowered, by arguing over our differences. Absolutely, of course it is. Yeah. I mean, think about Hunger Games, right?

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (20:35)

Do you think that's deliberate?

Jessica Gammell-Bennett (20:45)

So why was Katniss the leader of a resistance movement? Because she didn't describe to the game.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (20:57)

I didn't watch The Hunger Games. know that I should have. So I'm living under a rock. I think I should have seen it. But for those who didn't watch the show, I maybe translate that a little bit more for a second.

Jessica Gammell-Bennett (20:57)

Right?

That's okay.

Yeah.

So the Hunger Games, the premise of it was basically you had wealthy people who lived in the capital, okay, and they were gorging themselves on food. And then you had really, really, really poor people who lived in the districts, I think it was called. It's been a while. And the idea was they would pick somebody from each district, and they would make them play the Hunger Games. They would, you'll probably hear, violent volunteers tribute, right? ⁓ And they would pit them against each other.

Okay, for sport. And the reason was because the people in the capital knew that as long as the people in the districts were fighting each other, they wouldn't be able to stand up and rise up against the people who are in control. So it's the same thing if you're fighting other people based on your beliefs, you're not coming together with them to change things and to make things better. You're too busy spending your energy fighting.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (22:11)

Yeah. I think that's crucial to understand right now. And I can be vague in sharing that months ago I, I saw someone who's becoming just over here, very obsessed with the American politics and increasingly anxious, scared, and constantly wondering who around me, as in who around here will be

Jessica Gammell-Bennett (22:28)

Yeah.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (22:40)

not actually as trustworthy as we can assume, who has an intention I don't know about. And it was almost becoming a bit paranoid. And I'm really worried that the current climate is sort of encouraging that, instead of just connecting and chilling out and being a bit human.

Jessica Gammell-Bennett (22:49)

Yeah.

So the thing is the way that people have always been controlled is by putting them into fear. And so the opposite of fear is love, you know, is safety, right? And when people allow themselves to fall into fear, they lose their power.

And that's kind of the point of rhetoric and getting people to be divided and fight against each other. It's to keep them in fear, it's to keep them disempowered. So to your point, if your friend was really like worried and becoming, sounds like paranoid, ⁓ they were falling right into the trap, right? And so it's gonna take people deciding not to allow themselves.

to be possessed by fear, basically. I use the word possessed intentionally too, because it is almost like a possession when someone's that afraid. And people will say, we have a reason to be afraid. Sorry. Please.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (24:04)

because you're not yourself anymore?

Is it sorry for jumping in, as just came to ask, is it because they're basically

not themselves anymore?

Jessica Gammell-Bennett (24:17)

Yeah, if you think of it and if you want to use science, we'll use science, okay? So going back to fight, flight, freeze, fawn, yeah? What rhetoric can do is it can activate cortisol, the stress hormone. It can trigger you to go into fight, flight, freeze, or fawn in your sympathetic nervous system.

And then yes, you are no longer in your prefrontal cortex, your logical problem-solving part of your brain that, by the way, also bonds with other humans, okay? And has mirror neurons. This is why babies and mothers, this is how they bond, okay? ⁓ Now you are in your reptilian brain, right?

So you're a caveman brain if you want to call it, okay? You are in the amygdala. And the amygdala is your fight or flight. It's I'm in danger. So if we want to keep people disempowered, we create fear, we keep them in their amygdala.

And yes, they're not even in their right mind. They're not in their right mind. They're not in their prefrontal cortex, which is logical and would question things and also would use its mirror neurons to bond with other humans and problem solve to make things better. This is actually evolutionary, how we survived. It was by being communal people and helping each other.

Yes, we had tribes that attacked each other, but we wouldn't have survived as a species if we didn't also have communities of people that helped each other thrive and survive.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (25:59)

was so keen to divert a little bit to community to look at your own healing in a moment, but until that, I'm wondering if community or looking for some sort of guidance can also help us see our own blind spots in all of this.

Jessica Gammell-Bennett (26:06)

in.

Absolutely. I think everybody should have at least one friend who can call you on your crap. I have a group of girlfriends, and we can be very honest with each other and be like, You're not seeing this. You know, when you said this to me, like it really, it triggered this in me being self-reflective and then being in community with other people who are self-reflective is how you will improve, and you will see your blind spots.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (26:49)

Awesome. Get someone who's going to be honest.

Jessica Gammell-Bennett (26:53)

Yeah, don't just be friends with people who just say, you know, who just validate you no matter what. Because there are times when you shouldn't be validated. There are times you should be challenged.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (27:07)

Interesting. And so getting back to community now, I can see that through that and other things, you overcame cancer. What sort of cancer did you have? What happened? How long ago was that? I'm really curious.

Jessica Gammell-Bennett (27:20)

Yeah, so I had invasive squamous cell carcinoma, so it started on the skin and then it invaded and went into the lymph nodes. ⁓ And it's an I want to tell the whole story because I the community part is really important to me. So my sister Laura and ⁓ I

had very different gifts. I'm what's called clairsentient, so I can feel energy since I was a little girl. I've always been able to walk into a room and tell you who was sad, who was mad, what was going on. My sister was very clairvoyant. She could read auras. mean, she could close her eyes and see. And I could never do that. I would close my eyes and see nothing. I mean, it's just like, OK, my eyes are closed. I see nothing. And so when I founded my healing system in 2020, was right when the pandemic hit. It was interesting.

I would feel a new healing symbol come in, and I would text my sister or call her and say, Hey, I have a new healing symbol coming in. I can't see it. What is it? And she would text me back within five minutes and say, It's this and this. In June, early June of 2023, I felt this healing symbol coming in very strongly. Felt for me, it feels like

energy just coming into my energy field. It's very strong. Like if you had your body against a speaker that was really loud, you know that feeling where like the music is bumping? That's what it feels like to me.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (28:48)

You can feel

The sort of vibration, so to speak, is really good for a speaker. I know that feeling. basically you just, you had a feeling and everybody, whether they believe in this sort of thing or not, sometimes you just have a bit of a suspicion or a gut instinct, some kind of, some kind of wondering.

Jessica Gammell-Bennett (28:52)

Yes.

Yes.

Right. And so I knew because I'd been working with my healing sister for quite a while by then, I knew it was a healing symbol coming in. And I texted my sister, I said, What is this? And she wrote back, it's a wrench and a rose. And it was like, okay. said, well, after your, cause her birthday was coming up. Her birthday was June 20th. And this was probably around like June 14th, maybe I'm not sure. And I said, after your birthday, let's figure out what this healing symbol does. And she was like, okay, no problem. And.

She ended up having a fatal heart attack on July 14th before we had a chance to figure out what the symbol was for.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (29:51)

Fatal heart attack, she died.

Jessica Gammell-Bennett (29:53)

She died, was 54 years old, And you can imagine the shock. ⁓ And so we had the funeral and all the things that you do when someone dies. And I wrote the obituary and all that and did a eulogy with my niece. And then I had had these pains.

And I was ignoring them because I was busy. I was in grad school getting my degree. had a baby. No, he was two by this time. ⁓ I had a young child. I had another child. I was busy. And this is another thing is like, if you have a pain, don't ignore it. Go to the doctor. And I just kept ignoring it, kept ignoring it. And finally, it was so painful that I ended up going to the doctor. And on

August 10th, I was diagnosed with invasive squamous cell carcinoma and Sorry, It is right right it started on the skin. Can, exactly, you got it, and then it went into the lymph nodes, so I had what's called a PET scan, and they diagnosed me is stage four, which you know, stage fours

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (30:51)

basis.

invasive, so it had spread. So what was, so went from the skin to the insides.

that

Jessica Gammell-Bennett (31:15)

is the worst sorry the top level it's the worst correct

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (31:17)

top level, it's the worst. I'm translating

it for those who don't know the terminology, so we can really follow your end absorbent.

Jessica Gammell-Bennett (31:23)

Yep. Yep.

Yeah, no, thank you. I appreciate that. So stage four is the worst. Stage four is game over. So I have a conversation with the oncologist, and he says, they're only going to offer palliative care. And I have a two-year-old, right? And so everything in my being said is wrong. This isn't right. I don't think this is right. And it wasn't denial. It wasn't denial. Like I was like, well, everybody around me was like, well, maybe you're in denial.

And they were gentle about it. You I just lost my sister. And I went to my, to the doctor that I went to to get the diagnosis and I started crying and I said, I know this isn't stage four. And she said, I don't think it is either. And I'm going to explain why. If it was stage four, because I had these lymph nodes under my arms lit up on the PET scan, and the cancer was down low. Okay.

And she said if it was stage four, there would be a trail from the original cancer site up to your lymph nodes, and there's not. And she said, so I'm gonna go to the board and I'm gonna fight for you to have treatment. And I was bawling, of course, you know? And so I go home, and we're waiting on this to happen. In the meantime.

People were sending me roses. Remember the wrench and the rose. My sister said the symbol was a wrench and a rose because my sister had died. They were sending me real, actual roses. They were sending me candles in the shape of a rose. My screensaver on my computer all of a sudden popped up, and it was roses out of nowhere. Like I didn't make it do that. And then my two-year-old started going to his dad's toolbox and bringing me wrenches. And I said, Why are you bringing me these? And he said, It's from Aunt Wawa. She told me to bring it to you.

He said, she tell me bring this you like, you know, in his two-year-old language. And I was like, my God. And so I immediately texted everybody that I loved. And I said, Hey.

I think this is a symbol to heal me. Will you send it to me? And they wrote back and said, yeah, but what does it look like? So I went to my 10-year-old, who's a pretty gifted artist, and I said, Hey, there's a symbol of wrenching the rose. Can you draw it for me? And he said, Yeah, mommy, sure. So he drew it and on the center of the symbol that he drew was an infinity symbol. He said, Mommy, this represents love. He said, it has no beginning and no end. He said, Send this to people who love you. They'll heal you. And I was like, okay. So I took a picture of what he drew and I sent it to all those people. And they started sending me this symbol. And I realised in that moment how many people I had in my life who knew how to send energy healing. I was probably over a hundred.

They were former clients, they were friends, they were relatives, and I could feel the tumour shrinking in real time. And so I went from being in a lot of pain, I mean a lot of pain, to tolerable.

And so the board voted, and my doctor, her name is Dr. Sarah Fox, she's amazing. She persevered, and she got them to agree to treat me. They overturned the stage four diagnosis. They said that the oncologist who had diagnosed me had only been on the job for a couple months. He was brand new, and he basically didn't know how to read a PET scan.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (34:54)

Gosh.

Jessica Gammell-Bennett (34:55)

Yeah.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (34:57)

I want to fix my light for one second to make sure this is the best it can be. Thanks. So you're saying that it's very legitimate to sometimes question an expert's or a professional's opinion because sometimes they are not as well, they don't know as much as you might assume they know.

Jessica Gammell-Bennett (35:18)

Absolutely. And look what I did. I got somebody to advocate for me. I didn't have any power in that system. That was a medical system that I was not a part of. I found a surgeon to fight for me. And she did. Yeah.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (35:29)

surgeon who went to the top, bring it to, brought it to the board, so it's not simply, 'I want another doctor, let's go to the board.'

Jessica Gammell-Bennett (35:34)

back to the board.

Yeah. And she was a mother. She knew I had young children. There we go. There's that connection. You see what I mean? I don't know what her political beliefs are, but we were mothers and she knew I had a two year old and she had to keep me alive. So she fought for me. Yeah. So that's what you have to do. You have to find somebody to fight for you.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (35:53)

She saw it was needed. She fought for you. ⁓

And all of these people were sending you all this love and care and it was, it was helping you. You know, a lot of people are not religious. I'm not that religious now, but I saw how some communities will pray for each other, or they end up believing that in some sort of communal, united belief, someone can, in some way, feel better. And it sounds like.

Jessica Gammell-Bennett (36:06)

Yeah.

It was helpful to me.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (36:31)

We can't totally explain how, sometimes, when a community comes together over something like this, things improve in some way, but it sounds like even beyond that space, you've seen a version of that happening.

Jessica Gammell-Bennett (36:44)

So I can explain it in quantum physics. We have life force energy. So when I got pregnant with my now four-year-old, I felt a swirl of energy coming into my womb. And I knew I was pregnant. I was probably five days pregnant. I mean, way before you could take a pregnancy test. You know, it's like what, two weeks at least. ⁓

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (37:02)

You can just know.

Jessica Gammell-Bennett (37:04)

Yeah, and I was going like this with my hand to see if I could block the energy. I was like, This is the most amazing thing I've ever experienced. And of course, I wasn't trying to block it, but I was just amazed that I could feel his life force going into my body. I was like, This is incredible. And of course I was pregnant, you know? And so everything alive has life force energy. So the trees have life force energy, the plants have life force energy, we have life force energy. And when we get sick,

our life force energy is diminished, right? Think of it like a battery, okay? What happens when a battery runs low, right? The system that's depending on that battery is not gonna run optimally; it's going to be sick, yeah? And so when people send energy healing, they're sending life force energy from the quantum field. That's why you have to use a symbol.

So I had one person say, I'm sending you all of my energy. And I said, Please don't do that. You'll deplete yourself. Use the symbol. The reason you're using the symbol is because you're pulling the energy out of the quantum field, out of the universe, out of God. Whatever word you want to use is fine. You're not pulling it out of humans. We are channels.

Right? We are channels for life force energy. ⁓ And so when we use a symbol, we're basically just being an energy conductor. We're being a channel for that energy. We're not getting away our own energy. And so that's what people were doing is they were using the energy of that symbol. And so what the wrench was doing was it was attacking the cancer cells. And what the rose was doing was it was restoring the tissues that had been damaged by the cancer cells. And so

That's what I believe, anyway. That's what was happening. So the tumour was shrinking in real time, but it was the love and it was the life force that was coming through that symbol to me from other people using themselves as energy conductors from the quantum field that was shrinking the tumour. And prayer works the same way. Because you think, what are you doing when you pray? You are a channel for divine intervention, right?

And so you're not giving that person your life force away. You're asking God, the universe, whatever name you want to use, right, to intervene on this person's behalf and heal them. That's why it works.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (39:30)

There's something about the power of the collective, and maybe that's what we're coming back to, just like what you said about education and advocacy. And I'm wondering for those who just haven't wrapped their heads around spirituality or concepts like this, what can you say? And I think this is really crucial because, okay, here's how to put it.

Jessica Gammell-Bennett (39:50)

Yeah.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (39:57)

Sometimes people get sick, and they think they have to be isolated. And there were moments where, in particular situations, maybe in the pandemic or in other things, it made sense. We'll acknowledge that to particular people, it made sense for them in a particular time. However, it sounds like what you're saying is if people are feeling unwell,

Jessica Gammell-Bennett (39:58)

you

Thanks.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (40:23)

connect with more people and connect with a community, and it's going to make a difference.

Jessica Gammell-Bennett (40:30)

Absolutely. Yeah. And the thing is, you don't have to be in person. You know, you can send energy healing from anywhere in the planet. There is a quantum physics. It's part of super string theory, but it's basically the concept of non-locality. So non-locality is if you have a particle on the west coast of the United States and a particle on the east coast of the United States, and you do something to a particle on the west coast, you're to have the equal, the same reaction to the particle on the east

coast. So because we're all connected by quantum energy. So you don't even having positive thoughts about someone can make them better. We're all connected at the quantum level. I mean, spirituality, I think spirituality and science have been separated for too long. It's quantum physics. It really is. I mean, yes, it's spirituality. And I'd say, like one of my friends when I was going through treatment, organised all my other friends.

to make me juice packets. I was juicing while I was going through treatment because my digestive system was a mess from the chemo, and I just really couldn't eat. So, but the juices were a way to get really high-quality nutrients into my body and my bloodstream really quickly, but it was exhausting to juice all day. So my friend organised all my other friends and people in our community to make me these juice packets.

And so they basically would chop the vegetables and everything. So all I had to do was open a Ziploc bag, dump it in my juicer and press the button. And so that's the kind of thing like we need to be doing for people when they're sick. We are not meant to heal in isolation. We're not meant to live in isolation, right?

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (42:02)

We are social creatures, and you brought it back to food. I think that that's such a crucial thing. And it has been a theme within this podcast. Some people were saying if someone looks overstretched, check if they are hydrating, and you're saying juicing really helped, actually. Actually, very recently I talked on the show with a gut health expert who said that the juices will still have the polyphenols and

Jessica Gammell-Bennett (42:16)

Cool.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (42:43)

Various things in it, even though you don't have the fibre. So you are absolutely on track. They are still getting something, and it showed people were listening to what you needed. And, and some communities will try to get everybody to bake a tray of meals for someone, things like that. So are you recommending, especially, I'm guessing that would really help people's mental health as well to.

Jessica Gammell-Bennett (43:02)

Great.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (43:10)

It sounds like part of the solution in all sorts of situations is for communities to break bread together. Now I have to stop using these phrases, but do you think part of it is that people really do need to share food together and also positivity?

Jessica Gammell-Bennett (43:26)

Absolutely, I think breaking bread is a great term. I use breaking bread a lot, and as a therapist, this came up in a group supervision the other day, about like, can you take food from clients because you're not supposed to, but I reminded them that breaking bread with other people is a wonderful way to bond with them and connect with them. So yes, if they have made a known loaf of something and they want to give you a slice, eat it. Don't turn it down. You know, eat it. Yeah, I think breaking bread with others is a wonderful way to have that communal vibe and to sit down, share a meal. Now you're sharing something, right? You can talk about the food, which is non-polarising, right? And you get to know each other on a human level. Yeah. And I think...

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (44:08)

Yes.

I will add food, sorry.

I was going to say food should not be polarising. You'd be surprised. There are the ones who are anti-carbs, the ones who are not coping with the vegans or whatever. No, ideally, again, get over all our differences and just share whatever you're into, a cup of tea, anything.

Jessica Gammell-Bennett (44:20)

No!

Yeah.

Yeah, absolutely. used to be very, it's interesting, before cancer I was a real health nut and I was like no gluten, no milk, no dairy, rather. Like I was doing smoothies every day. I was really a health nut. And then I got cancer anyway. So now I'll enjoy a chocolate chip cookie. I'll treat myself. Do you see what I mean? And I feel that I'm happier, you know?

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (44:59)

You're living life.

Yeah, actually, my equivalent that I hope aligns with what you're saying is that I am normally such a health nut, but I ended up at a lunch that I was very lucky to squeeze into, and they sent over a big slice of cake, vegan-friendly, but cake and ice cream. I hadn't done that in who knows half a year, something like that. And I knew just be with people and live. Do you think that's what everybody should be doing?

Jessica Gammell-Bennett (45:31)

Yeah.

Absolutely, absolutely. Everything in moderation, including moderation, right? So like, I was living like an aesthetic, like a monk. I was only putting really healthy things in my body that could sick anyway. Like now I treat myself, you know, I obviously don't go overboard. I've always taken really good care of having come off of chronic fatigue and all that. I still, you know, I'm pretty healthy. We cook very healthy at home, but I now I treat myself. I give myself that treat because for me I love

This is a very strange thing, and my friend tells me that I'm like a child. But I love getting a hot cup of coffee, taking a chocolate chip cookie, and dunking it in the coffee. And you get a spoon and you fish out the parts that have melted and gone to the bottom. It's amazing.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (46:15)

Okay.

Something. Look, why not? There's a place near here that puts a miniature Oreo next to the coffees. For me, that's on the edge, but I'm speaking your language now.

Jessica Gammell-Bennett (46:24)

Ha

⁓ yes.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (46:39)

So you do the little treats, but moderation in moderation. You mentioned the fatigue. And I just, you have so many stories, and we might have to add an extra 15, 20 minutes on because there's so much going on here. What happened with the fatigue?

Jessica Gammell-Bennett (46:42)

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, so the chronic fatigue, ⁓ I was sick for about 10 years. I was told I would never have.

Children I was having a lot of gynaecological issues with it and I won't go too in-depth But I was told by this professor at Duke University where I was going to try and get some help, you know He said I would rule out having children and of course that was like a knife in my heart You know, if you don't want them, that's fine. But if you really want them and somebody says that, then it's ⁓ you know, and what I came to find was that I was severely mineral-depleted.

And so I started doing research on immunity, and like, how do you improve your immunity? And I started supplementing with zinc, and I also got my iron levels back in gear. So I have a low ferritin. So we're supposed to be able to store iron as ferritin. So we eat a steak and then our body takes that iron and it stores it as ferritin and then we can, our body can use that ferritin to make haemoglobin and whatever else we need. Well, my body doesn't do that.

And so some people have low ferritin, and it means they don't store iron. So they're going to have to supplement it. Now you have to be careful because iron can overdose on iron, you know? But when I started basically doing zinc, iron and B vitamin supplementation, and of course, like lots of greens and smoothies and eating more vegetables, my chronic fatigue went away. And so for me, I was mineral-depleted.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (48:22)

that you're listening.

So it was a mix of the supplements and the leafy greens.

Jessica Gammell-Bennett (48:31)

See

Yeah, definitely, definitely. And just eating better, getting the zinc levels up, getting the iron levels up. And interestingly, now I know that these are so magnesium, zinc and iron, you know, are really important for dopamine. And people who are ADHD are very low in dopamine. And so what we have going, go ahead.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (49:03)

Oh no, it just, just dots are joining so much, and I just feel like you're explaining everything to me. So, you know, I think that it's, it's teaching me. I'm hoping a lot of people need to hear this. Just keep teaching. Go for it.

Jessica Gammell-Bennett (49:18)

Yay,

yay, okay, good. ⁓ You want to try and find a functional medicine doctor if you can, ⁓ because you don't want to just start supplementing with iron, know, can overdose minerals you can overdose with. But ⁓ I can tell you that anxiety, the number one supplement for anxiety, is magnesium, and I'm going to tell you why. Because anxiety can be caused by cortisol levels that are too high, magnesium brings down cortisol levels.

So yeah, so a lot, I would say clients that start supplementing with magnesium, I would say 95 % are able to get off of their anxiety medications.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (50:03)

That is significant.

Jessica Gammell-Bennett (50:04)

Thank you.

Yeah, and 98 % of the body's biological processes are dependent on adequate magnesium. And so what happens is when you have stress, your body releases cortisol, right? And so what happens when you release cortisol is cortisol depletes magnesium. So you get yourself in this terrible loop where you're anxious, okay? And so your cortisol levels are growing up, so your magnesium is getting depleted, but because your magnesium is low, you're anxious. It's a loop. So when you supplement with magnesium, you lower those cortisol levels, you get yourself out of there's fight, flight or freeze again, okay you get yourself into a calm state, all right, and then the anxiety goes away

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (50:45)

You mentioned how some of these levels can be an issue for people with ADHD. And that label is very much a trend in public conversation these days, ADHD. But I'm wondering, do you see people who, okay, first of all, is ADHD a spectrum, kind of like how autism is a spectrum? Can people be a little bit ADHD, and is it possible that a lot of adults or anyone might be a little bit?

Jessica Gammell-Bennett (50:51)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Sure.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (51:14)

ADHD and not realizing it.

Jessica Gammell-Bennett (51:17)

Absolutely. Yeah, of course. So with ADHD, you're going to see different things. If you have people who struggle with what's called executive function. Okay. So again, here's that prefrontal cortex. Okay. That's the part of our brain that. Sorry. No. Yes, exactly. Yeah. So that's an executive function is also like.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (51:30)

Is that things like remembering your keys? Sorry, I interrupted. Is it things like remembering your keys?

Jessica Gammell-Bennett (51:40)

I know how to do this process. have to do this step one, step two, step three, step four. And so if you see a kiddo or an adult who like keeps forgetting to do things or has trouble with like doing multiple steps of a process, that's executive function. That's a sign of ADHD. And so if you have hyperactivity, that can be a sign of ADHD as well.

We also know that, so here's what makes dopamine in the brain. Adequate levels of minerals and B vitamins, okay? Exercise and specifically what we call compression exercise. So jumping in a trampoline is about the most amazing thing you can do for a neurodivergent child.

Because yeah, it's gonna produce dopamine. Okay, so you wanna run, you wanna swim, or you wanna jump. That's how you're going to basically get the most dopamine into the brain, into an ADHD child. And so jumping on a trampoline is an incredible thing because it gives them dopamine. They're outside, I doubt they're in the house on a giant trampoline, right? ⁓ And it's compression activity. So what compression activity does is it resets the nervous system from fight, flight, freeze to a calm state.

And it's really good for your heart. Mean, compression, running, swimming, and jumping are about the best things you can do for your heart, strengthening your heart and your aerobic exercise. So like, if I have a family that has a child with ADHD, I'm like, okay, how can we work on a plan to get you a trampoline? And I had a family that put a trampoline on layaway for like three months and finally got it. And it made such a difference in their child's behaviour, they couldn't believe it. 20 minutes a day, 20 minutes after school every day. The child was able to sit down and do his homework. And before that, it was a two-hour battle every day. He got his homework done in 15 minutes.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (53:34)

My goodness.

That's a message worth spreading in itself because it's a simple, practical thing. And I think I'd very, with some caution, go onto Facebook marketplace, things like that, to find someone who's getting rid of a trampoline that's in good shape. But it sounds like you would almost, it sounds like you would perhaps recommend that people should seek funding if they need that to get a trampoline.

Jessica Gammell-Bennett (53:49)

Right. Yeah.

Exactly.

If they can, yeah, if they can get state funding. So a lot of the department stores have layaway programs. I know, like Walmart over here is a big chain. And that's what my family did is they did layaway at Walmart ⁓ for three months so they could get that trampoline. Yeah.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (54:23)

Even if someone plans ahead to get a trampoline when they can, that's just, that's great to know that there's a solution, and it's fun.

Jessica Gammell-Bennett (54:27)

you

It's fun and get in there with your kids. It is so much fun. There's so much you can do in a trampoline. You can play, you can run around and chase each other. You can play crack the egg where somebody like goes like this and the other people jump and they have to make you like let go. You can throw a football into the trampoline and jump and catch it. And somebody, if like, if you're a parent who can't get into trampoline, you can stand on the outside and throw a football and the kid can throw the football back to you. There's just so much you can do.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (55:01)

Practical question here on the other side of the world, where I am, we're getting into this summer, and it's worth asking. ⁓ Look, I'm looking forward to it. Seriously. I love this sun and the water, but I'm wondering. You said swimming does this mean proper swimming in a pool, instead of just go to the waves and let them splash on you really move around and swim

Jessica Gammell-Bennett (55:06)

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah. So if you want that aerobic exercise and you want that dopamine hit, you want to swim hard. You want to really swim. It's such the one thing about swimming, I would say, is something you could do your whole life. It's non-weight-bearing, right? So it's not going to hurt your joints. At some point, running might be too much for, you know, once you get to a certain age because it's harder in your joints, right? But swimming is something you could do your entire life, you know, and it is so good for you. Having said that, I will say going in the ocean is very healing.

I mean, it's just, it's incredibly healing. I went in the ocean a lot when I was sick. And I would feel so much better when I got out of it.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (56:02)

to both.

I totally relate to that, so sounds like both have their benefits. Try both.

Jessica Gammell-Bennett (56:10)

Absolutely. Yeah. And I think

like surfing, like where I live on the coast, we have surfers and that's really good exercise. Because you're in the ocean, you're having to paddle really hard, right? To get out there and then to catch that wave, you're popping up. I mean, it's really good exercise actually.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (56:27)

Okay, I'll keep that in mind. There's, I think, some sort of program near here called surfing on the spectrum, something like that. And I think I have to say, okay, look, what are people up to with all that?

Jessica Gammell-Bennett (56:38)

Yeah that sounds amazing!

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (56:41)

Yeah, I must say I felt so nervous about surfing myself, but I'm impressed by people who do. I'm wondering, do you surf?

Jessica Gammell-Bennett (56:51)

I tried it a couple times, I gave it a real go for a whole summer and I kept getting kicked off, and like I felt like I was in a washing machine and the last time I remember I stood up on the beach, and I was dizzy, you know, and I was like, I don't think I could do this. But I have lots of friends that do.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (57:09)

Fair enough. So if it works for some people, then get into it, but it's okay if some things are easier for us than others.

Jessica Gammell-Bennett (57:19)

Absolutely.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (57:22)

We've looked at almost everything. So it sounds like some of the common themes are to look, look at the nutrients and see a doctor if we're, if we're in a mood check that we're getting the vitamins and minerals that we need, but also connect with people to heal ourselves and to remind listeners of the school side of things, find advocates, whether it's

Jessica Gammell-Bennett (57:40)

Absolutely.

Thank

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (57:51)

So in both the school situation and your personal health, you're looking for advocates. It sounds like they are some of the key things that people can do.

Jessica Gammell-Bennett (57:59)

Absolutely. Yeah, you need to find advocates. need to find connection and advocacy, I would say. ⁓ We are designed to be communal. We really are. Like we're built as a species to be communal. And we're also built as a species to have advocates, right? There have always throughout history been leaders. There have always been people who fought for and stood up for other people. We're designed that way. We're designed to be that way. So you can always find somebody to advocate for you.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (58:30)

And you can become a voice like what you're doing. People can become a voice who share the truth.

Jessica Gammell-Bennett (58:36)

Yeah, absolutely. And if you can't find it, make it. Make it. I've seen parents do that. I've seen them create groups when they couldn't find a group to join.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (58:46)

Sounds like a good idea, and it's easy enough to do, just bring people together.

Jessica Gammell-Bennett (58:50)

Mm-hmm, exactly. Come up with a name. Yeah.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (58:55)

Easy. Are there any final thoughts that you want people to keep in mind as the last thing they heard from this conversation with you?

Jessica Gammell-Bennett (59:05)

Yeah, I think.

I think just really trying to keep common humanity in mind and trying to stay out of fear and trying to lean into each other and being open-minded, listening to others. I think that goes a long way. Even if you don't think he will disagree. I mean, sorry, even if you think he'll disagree.

Listening to others' opinions and trying to understand where they're coming from, I think, is how we can move forward.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (59:45)

Jessica Gamble-Bennett, thank you for so much wisdom on so many topics. It has been a real treat.

Jessica Gammell-Bennett (59:52)

You're welcome. ⁓

Thank you, Melanie. I really appreciate you.

Summary

In this conversation, Melanie Wintle discusses the importance of movement and exercise as we age, emphasising strength training, injury management, and the need for consistency in physical activity. She addresses common concerns related to menopause, weight gain, and the benefits of group activities for motivation. The discussion also highlights practical tips for incorporating exercise into busy lives and the significance of mindset in achieving fitness goals. Ultimately, the conversation encourages listeners to embrace movement at any age and to prioritise their health and well-being.

Keywords

movement, aging, strength training, exercise, rehabilitation, menopause, health, fitness, lifestyle, community

Takeaways

It's never too late to start exercising.

Any movement is better than no movement.

Strength training is crucial for preventing frailty as we age.

Consistency in exercise is key to long-term health benefits.

Injuries should not deter you from movement; consult a professional for guidance.

Incorporate exercise into your daily routine, even in small chunks.

Mindset shifts are necessary for embracing strength training, especially for women.

Practical movements can be integrated into everyday life, like carrying groceries.

Group activities provide motivation and accountability for staying active.

Older adults can gain strength and improve their quality of life through exercise.

Titles

Embracing Movement at Any Age

Strength Training: The Key to Aging Well

Transcript

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (00:02)

We have two Melanies, Melanie Wintle talking with Melanie Wilson. Hi Melanie Wintle.

Melanie Wintle (00:09)

Hello.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (00:13)

We've had a great chat before we started recording about how people can look after themselves as they are getting a little bit older and trying to be more active and able to live a fulfilling life for a long time. So let's start off, though, with introducing yourself. For those who don't know, what do you do?

Melanie Wintle (00:41)

So I am a chiropractor, and I also, in the past, when I was going through school, going through university, I did a kinesiology undergrad, and I ⁓ put myself through university by coaching gymnastics, and working in a weight room and teaching people how to lift weights. So I've always been very active and enjoyed exercise. And then when I became a chiropractor, it seemed like a natural transition to treat people manually, but then also provide them with exercises. And I reached a point where I found that the people that were getting the best results and not coming back two weeks later with the same problems were the ones that were doing the exercises that I would prescribe because they would, what you do on a daily basis is more important than what I do in a 20, 30 minute treatment session every two weeks or even maybe sometimes depending on.

How severe the injury was at the time, maybe sometimes twice a week. Everything that you're doing on a daily basis is more important. So I found I just got so frustrated with people coming back and not getting better, and started to really focus on the exercise rehab side ⁓ and pretty much transitioned my practice 100 % to that type of rehabilitation or just strengthening for people who want to improve their physical fitness.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (02:03)

That's amazing.

So you have the chiropractic side and the gymnastic background. And for those who don't know what exactly is kinesiology?

Melanie Wintle (02:05)

you

It's ⁓ so when you're going through, because obviously, to become a chiropractor, you need to have an undergraduate degree from a university. So you can choose a health science or there's different choices. Kinesiology is all about human motion. ⁓ Yeah, a lot of human motion, biology, ⁓ bit of chemistry, but mostly based on sports science, exercise science and human movement.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (02:43)

There's a lot of science behind what you're doing. And I think that's really significant because you were saying before I clicked record that some people might be guiding groups in some forms of movement with a little bit more or less or varying backgrounds and knowledge. And so I think I'll start off there just because that's where we've landed that

People are looking for all different forms of movement at the moment, be it Pilates, or yoga or something else. And I am curious what of what sort of forms of movement have you seen people leaning towards? mentioned weights. So what have people been doing and what advice do you have to people who are showing up to a group wanting to look after themselves, and wondering

Are they getting the best guidance?

Melanie Wintle (03:41)

That's a lot. So I think personally, I like to focus on strength training just because right now, too, a lot of people, a lot of women, especially in the menopause space, are being told that they need to start lifting heavier weights. If you want to avoid frailty, you want to build up your bone density, you want to improve your independence as you age. So a lot of women are being pushed into strength training. However, if they don't have the background in strength training and they haven't ever really lifted weights,

⁓ They might feel intimidated either A, just not start at all or kind of start doing something that's too heavy for them and then causing them to either want to give up because it's not enjoyable. It's not enjoyable to be so sore the next day that you can barely sit on the toilet or walk up the stairs. So, a lot of people are intimidated by that, and they're just not progressing into it in a natural way. ⁓ Also, if you have a specific injury that you're dealing with going into any kind of exercise. And you definitely want to consult somebody who's going to have some experience in exercise rehab because they have to ⁓ be able to tell you how to rehabilitate that injury at the same time as you're doing your strengthening. So ⁓ I think a lot of people too, unfortunately, when they have an injury, depending on the comfort level of their practitioner, they may be just be told to avoid anything that aggravates the pain of that injury.

which is in some ways one of the worst things you can

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (05:12)

Are you saying that it's worse to avoid these activities entirely if you have an injury?

Melanie Wintle (05:19)

Yeah, because what happens is if you have an injury and you want to baby it for a little bit, obviously, it depends on if it's something that you rolled over and sprained your ankle, obviously, you're not going to go for a run the next day. You need to let it heal. But once that healing phase has come on, you may still have some residual pain. And then the tendency for some people is just to continue avoiding it. But unfortunately, joints and ligaments and...

and tendons, all those supportive structures and muscles, they need movement. They need movement to bring in fresh circulation. They need movement to keep their strength up. They need the movement to keep the synovial fluid, or that fluid that's within joints, still there or active. So you need to make sure that you don't avoid 100 % movement. You also become weaker, right? We know it's move it, use it or lose it. If you stop moving because you have an injury, then you're going to deteriorate your entire state. And then you're going to start being fearful of doing certain movements because you're so worried about the pain. So you start kind of losing perspective of what you can and can't do and what's appropriate and what's not appropriate at that stage.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (06:35)

That's something to really keep in mind. And this can happen to anyone. I broke my leg years ago, and I, for a long time, thought that I shouldn't try various activities for pretty much a year or two afterwards. And I think that we give ourselves limiting beliefs. So I'm glad you're encouraging people to get back out there after they might've had a setback.

Melanie Wintle (06:57)

Yeah, and make sure that you're working with somebody who knows how to work with an injury and how to rehabilitate an injury. There's a lot of people out there that will teach you the exercise. They'll either A, tell you you need to work around it and just avoid moving that or just stop doing that. If it hurts, don't do it. But unfortunately, some of that pain is just an alarm signal that's a little overactive because you've guarded it for so long. It's just gradually increasing your range of motion within your tolerance, and you'll find that if you keep doing it over time, little by little, you'll actually increase that range of motion, and the pain will start to become less severe over time, especially if you stay within your tolerance, right? And you're increasing your tolerance over time. If you've ever had a back injury, you know that the day you have it, I've had back pain where I was down on my knees.

And the day you have it, you're super guarded, right? I mean, even as a chiropractor, I've been literally been taken down to my knees by a back pain episode, a flare-up. And that day, yes, you have to be a little bit more ginger, but you have to realise that you need to start walking, you need to start moving, you need to make sure that you don't allow that pain to keep you stuck on the couch for a week or two.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (08:16)

That's so symbolic. I think that people let all sorts of pain hold them back, and we need to just get up. But the common theme that I'm seeing is to keep at it for a while because that's the lesson you had for injuries, but also even when people come to you for all sorts of issues to fix, then if they are, said that if they're doing their practices over time, they're going to.

Melanie Wintle (08:29)

Recover or improve their situations more. So are you saying one of the most important things is to keep going and have consistency over time?

Melanie Wintle (08:57)

Absolutely. Exercise basically has to become part of your daily hygiene and your self-care. You wouldn't think about going a day without brushing your teeth. I mean, just finding things that you like to do. So it has to be part of your daily self-care.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (09:14)

It has to. What would you suggest to people who feel very busy? It's worth addressing this because people feel time-poor. I'm seeing a nod. It happens so much. We overfill our calendars. People are doing two jobs or two businesses, whatever it might be. How do you recommend that your clients or anyone should be fitting in their appropriate exercise on a busy day?

Melanie Wintle (09:42)

Well, first of all, you don't have to do it all in one clump. If you think, OK, I want to do 30 minutes, and it doesn't have to be every single day, right? So as long as you're moving to a certain extent every day on a daily basis, doing ⁓ walking or things that you enjoy to do, and then in terms of any exercises that you know you need to do in terms of strengthening or anything that you've been prescribed, if you have to chunk it up,

into manageable time sections, that's okay. Three times 10 is still 30 minutes, right? So if you have, for example, I tell people to do what we call exercise snacks. So when you go to get up, if you have an office job, when you go to get up to go to the washroom or get a coffee or right before your lunch, do 10 squats, 10 body weight squats.

Right? ⁓ And then go on your way, or just kind of what we call like associating habits or habit stacking. So, okay, while my coffee is brewing, I'm going to do calf raises, or while my water is boiling, I'm going to keep a pair of dumbbells in my kitchen and just do some bicep curls. So it doesn't have to be one solid time of 30 minutes. You can break it up into manageable times for you, right? Whatever fits into your schedule.

And when I tell people in terms of if you're doing any kind of fitness or exercise training, the minimal effective dose for that kind of strength training or resistance is about two times a week. It'd be better if you could do a three or four, but minimum is twice. And you can get a great workout in 20 minutes.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (11:24)

I have two questions branching off from that. The first one is twice in a week. You said it's really important to get this strength. And that was such an important priority that you mentioned, even before we started recording, that women were taught to just be thin and use cardio. So I'm guessing that was mainly a hold of treadmill running. And so

How do you guide the mindset shift ⁓ to people who are needing more of the strength and what can that look like if someone is at home? Do they need to get those little small hand weights or I have no clue. Where would someone begin with all that?

Melanie Wintle (12:14)

Well, first of all, to go back to what you were saying, yes, well, I'm 50, gonna be 53 next month. So I'm of that generation where, you know, we were teens in the 80s and all the models were thin and everybody was told to be thin and it was cardio, cardio, cardio. Everything was cardio, stay thin. A moment on the lips, lifetime on the hips, you know, that kind of saying was commonly stated.

And so now, unfortunately, it was a huge disservice to us, that whole generation, and more so for the generation ahead of me, because those women are now in their 60s and 70s, and their bone density is low, and their strength is low. And so ⁓ the reason why I mentioned strength training is because really that's the best way to prevent frailty. And frailty is what is going to have the biggest impact.

Or the lack of frailty, hopefully, is gonna have the biggest impact on your independence and your ability to carry on the activities that you enjoy. ⁓ What do you want your last 10 years to look like is one of the big questions you ask people, and you don't want it to be in a nursing home, right? So the biggest goal with strength training is avoiding frailty and putting on some muscle mass, because as you hit over 30,

⁓ We naturally start to lose our muscle mass. And then that keeps getting faster as you get over 50, the amount of muscle mass that you lose rapidly increases. So, you want to stave that off, and one of the ways to do that is with some resistance training. So, to go with what you were saying, sorry

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (13:51)

That's so crucial.

Now dive in.

Melanie Wintle (13:56)

So, to go with what you were saying about what does that look like, ⁓ well, right now, unfortunately, there's a lot of menopause experts or experts for people over 50 saying you got to lift heavy, you have to lift heavy. And that can be extremely intimidating for somebody who has never lifted weights. So I even heard one expert say, the pink weights away. But there's nothing wrong with those pink weights because that might be your starting point.

So you don't need to go to a gym, and you don't need a lot of equipment. And what I tell people to do is start with your pink weights, and then you'll find that you outgrow those pink weights, and it's too easy for you. And then guess what? You get to buy yourself the next set of dumbbells. And then when they become too light, then you get the next set. And it's just a gradual progression. It has to be gradual and has to be enjoyable.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (14:53)

Wondering if people can also get some practice in by incorporating the movement and the heavy lifting, the accessible, achievable heavy lifting, into their everyday lives. Perhaps it could be walking a few blocks to something instead of taking the car. I've seen some people driving to something that's so close they could have walked. Do you recommend that sort of thing to get more movement?

Melanie Wintle (15:18)

⁓ yeah,

absolutely. like you were saying, just doing things that they could have done ⁓ otherwise. So strength training, carrying your groceries. That's strength training. So you're carrying two bags of groceries and you're walking.

That's, and there's a term for that move. We do it with dumbbells. It's called farmer's carry. So you're carrying two bags of groceries and you're walking. So you now have to resist the weight of those grocery bags in each hand. So that is a form of resistance training. And that's why it's so practical for everyday life. You could just you could be taking your bottle of

Laundry detergent and raising it over your head and doing exercise that way you don't even need equipment Just think about the movements that you want to be able to continue to do on your own If it's your you've got a vacation coming up and you know that you don't want to have to ask for help to get that Luggage in the overhead compartment. Well, maybe you could start, you know, like I said with your with your laundry detergent or I don't know a two-litre bottle of

you know, soda, you could start raising that above your head just to start getting that movement in place. And it doesn't have to be heavy until you're ready. You just keep looking for something heavier for the next step.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (16:41)

Start small and be gradual.

Melanie Wintle (16:44)

Yes. Otherwise you're going to hate it because you'll be either you'll injure yourself and then you'll be even more fearful or you'll be so sore the next day. I mean, that's one of the most common complaints or one of the most common things I have from women or people that I train is that they say, I don't want to be sore. So I say, okay, well the best way to avoid that really horrible stiffness that you get two days after your first workout is just to start really light and build up, and you will find, you might feel a little bit sore, and that's how you know it was working, but you don't want it to be so unpleasant that you can't go up and down the stairs without feeling the ache.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (17:25)

Absolutely. You talked about menopause, and I'm in my 30s. I heard that women in their 40s and 50s start dealing with that, but there's all this media talk now about peri-menopause, things like that. I'm wondering what's going on with this menopause. I hope you can relate to having not really grown up hearing about it, because I think I grew up just not hearing.

Much about it, or they could have been stereotypes. So I'm sure you would agree it's in the public conversation a lot more than before, but what do we need to know?

Melanie Wintle (18:05)

Well, I have to say, I feel so happy that I'm in the generation that I am because us, know, the ones that are currently in their 50s or below, we are the generation that are just thankfully getting into that point where a hormone replacement therapy is being deemed safe again, because ⁓ I don't know if you know about the Women's Health Initiative study that was done, I believe it was in the 80s, but basically it was very poorly done.

The results were poorly read, and ⁓ basically, they said to women that the media just took the results, some tiny little results and said that it caused breast cancer. And then an entire generation, so my mother's generation, were basically told no hormone replacement. It's not safe. It causes breast cancer. Stay away from it. So anybody in that generation, unfortunately, missed the boat in terms of starting the hormone replacement therapy.

I myself started just because I started getting pains in my late 40s, all over, joint pain. had hock lashes, but very minor, so it wasn't something that I felt I needed to take medication for. But it was the joint pain that was jumping from my elbow to my shoulder to, and as a chiropractor and somebody who did rehab, I couldn't understand. I wasn't doing anything that was causing an injury.

I was trying to rehabilitate it myself, but it wouldn't go away. And so I started doing more reading about menopause because that's another thing. The practitioners, doctors, chiropractors, physios, there's very little education provided on women's health, particularly around menopause. It's all around pre and postnatal care. There's a lot of care or education provided around pre-and-postnatal care for women, but menopause not so much. So I just started doing some reading, and I found out that there are estrogen receptors everywhere in your body, even in your brain. And so that was explaining the symptoms that I was having, jumping from, you know, joint to joint. And ⁓ within four weeks of being on my hormone replacement therapy, I haven't really had much symptoms like that since. And if I have, I've been able to manage it with,

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (20:26)

That's.

Melanie Wintle (20:29)

conventional rehab therapy.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (20:33)

It's amazing. Was one place in pain and then the next spot. So it was one and then the other hopping. The look, it sounds like it shocked you or surprised you.

Melanie Wintle (20:41)

Yeah, kind of popping or becoming so chronic that I couldn't, like, I got tennis elbow from using, I don't know if you know what a weed whacker is or a whipper snipper. Like I was just cutting the weeds in my ass, like a lawn mower type thing. And I was only doing it for maybe 30 minutes. And I got such a bad flare-up of tennis elbow, and I could not get rid of it. I ended up having to get a cortisone shot, which was a terrible experience. That's a whole other story.

⁓ And then, within three weeks of getting the cortisone shot, it came back again. That was the straw that broke the camel's back for me, that it was like, no, no, no, something else is going on here. And I started listening to more podcasts and educating myself about the symptoms of menopause. And sure enough, that is a very common but under-talked-about symptom. One of the things that drives me crazy is that everybody's going on about weight gain, weight gain, weight gain, and menopause.

Of course, you're going to gain weight if you can't move and you have pain, okay, or you have brain fog, or you're exhausted. So I think the focus is on the wrong place, right? I think it's a big disservice to women to be focusing on the hot flashes and the woman constantly going like this or the meno-belly. I hate those terms. They just drive me crazy. Yeah.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (22:05)

Menno belly. Again, it's going back to the appearance, isn't it? Of course, the public is focusing on our weight without looking at what's happening behind the scenes and what might be causing the weight. And I can't help but bring up the trend that popped into my head, this Ozempic thing. I worry that women are having these weight concerns. I'm not going to tell someone to take or not to take any medications. I'm not a doctor, but

Melanie Wintle (22:09)

Yes.

Uh-huh.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (22:35)

I think that women are worried about their weight, and instead of doing these basic things like checking out their hormones and getting the movement, then they're jumping to possibly quick fixes of any sort. Do you think so?

Melanie Wintle (22:50)

Right, well,

Ozempic is definitely an obesity drug for people who have always had an obesity problem. I'm not ⁓ a doctor who's licensed to prescribe Ozempic, so I'm not going to go into much detail about that, but Ozempic is not really a weight loss drug for somebody who wants to lose that last 10 pounds, right? It's truly for people who struggle with weight, and mostly for people who have struggled with their weight their entire life.

And it is a tool to help you lose weight. The problem with Ozempic, that is coming out now, is that people who take it unfortunately start to also lose muscle mass. And muscle is the most metabolically active tissue or organ in your body. So you want to have, if you want weight control and you want a better strength and power and all those other things that avoid injury and...

allow you to do all the things that you want to do once you lose weight. You definitely want to have Ozempic if you need that, if your doctor is recommending that it's reasonable for you. The best thing to do is to exercise in conjunction with it. Right? But yeah, Ozempic is a weight loss tool for those last 10 pounds.

I, yeah, don't get me started. know a lot of people, there's enough really strongly educated doctors online who are speaking against that. So I would rather let them speak against that themselves.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (24:25)

At least you're giving insight into what the intention is for that. And also the broad picture there was that people want a quick fix of any sort instead of looking at why, why these things happen. And the hot flush is such a stereotype for sure. You really educated me just then about the aches. I didn't know about that. And you mentioned the brain fog. I think it's possible to get this sort of

Melanie Wintle (24:31)

Okay.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (24:55)

Fuzzy, it's so, it's a weird feeling when you're ahead, it's just going fuzzy, and you wonder what is going on. So I wonder, is your solution when people have things like that, does it come back to getting movement and sorting out the lifestyle as a beginning or as a part of it?

Melanie Wintle (25:03)

Yeah.

I think lifestyle can be part of it. And I think really the biggest thing for women, I mean, we can talk about men as well after, but the biggest thing for women is you really want to educate yourself because part of it is the fear of not knowing. For myself, just wondering why the heck was I getting these joint pains all over the place? And then reading that, wow, this is a thing. ⁓ okay. Then you realise you're not crazy. It's a common problem. And then you can start to think about, okay, how can I manage this?

And if you want to talk to your doctor about the different types of ways of managing them, then that's wonderful, right? Whether it's hormone replacement therapy or if it's exercises or lifestyle modifications, absolutely. Right. And then also you have that, that the sleep is affected as well due to the drops in hormone levels. So imagine you're not sleeping well, which we know when you don't sleep, you have heightened stress and cortisol, and then that contributes to weight gain. So

It's not, you know, that's why it drives me crazy that they're so focused on, gain, weight gain, I want to control the weight gain and menopause, I'm so unhappy with my body. Our bodies are beautiful, and we need to, you know, respect the health that they give us and really try to focus on, okay, understanding what's going on inside and not focusing on, and again, that's really society putting that on women and that stereotype of the whole.

Like I said, menopause, weight gain. Let's focus on really the more important factors here, is that this is a true health problem. Let's deal with that and stop focusing on what's going on on the outside.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (26:57)

Yes, it has to be about more than the appearance. I can relate to that so much. My weight fluctuated dramatically, give or take 20 kilograms over the years. And I think that there's such a reaction from anyone when someone is so thin, but it's just as important to make sure that someone is actually having enough energy and strength and all sorts of things. And you said you do want to talk about men as well.

I'm wondering what sorts of issues men might have. Some of them might be going to the gym a lot and it could be becoming an extreme activity for them that might be needing a bit of responsible ⁓ moderation, I'm not sure. Or are you saying men may be staying at the desk late at night and not getting out and moving around? What sort of issues have you seen?

Melanie Wintle (27:51)

Well, men are subject to the same decline in muscle mass as they age as well. So just to give you some numbers, so after 30, it's a 3 to 8 % decline per decade. And then after 50, it's 1 to 2 % per year. So for those 20 years from 30 to 50, you're talking in decades. And then after that, you're talking 1 to 2 % every single year. And I have a friend whose father wrecked his hip in his late 70s. You know, men can suffer from frailty as well. I don't find there are that many men that I know of or that I've treated personally or worked with personally, they're not the kind that are going to the gym or focused on the gym. ⁓ Like a lot of the time, it's more that they've been, you know, focused on their careers, and then their health has suffered because they've spent so much time focusing on their careers.

And now they love golf or whatever sports it is that they like to do, and then they're starting to realise, ⁓ my golf swing is suffering or I'm getting back pain there or I'm getting joint pain as I'm playing golf now and that wouldn't have happened 10 years ago. So it's more of those types of things that I'm dealing with. But men can get osteopenia or osteoporosis. They do suffer, just not to the same extent as women. They're lucky, too, because they can get their muscle mass back.

A little bit easier. So if you're training a husband and wife, the husband will start to gain muscle a little faster and will lose weight. He'll see results a little faster than the wife will, but it's okay. We all progress at our own rates.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (29:31)

You do. So everybody has a different rate of progress. That's something to keep in mind and it's very encouraging. We don't have to compare ourselves to each other so much, right?

Melanie Wintle (29:35)

Yes.

No,

no. And I love that you said you love to do yoga ⁓ because yoga is one of those things where you really, when you're in the yoga studio, you're not looking, well, hopefully not, look at that person's downward dog. They're so much more flexible than I am. You're focused on your movement, how far you're going. And then because you're doing the same movements over and over again from week to week, you really do see.

a progression and a change in your flexibility, your strength, your ability to hold poses, maybe even getting into new poses that you weren't able to do previously. it, because a lot of the moves are progressive as well. So I think that that's one of the ways too that you can, you can, you know, strengthen your body. It doesn't have to be strength training necessarily. I do think that they work well together because yoga gives you that flexibility.

and the stability that you can't get anywhere else, really. And then the strength training just gives you that power ⁓ that will help you avoid falls and be able to do those lifts that you hold lifting grandchildren, or like I said, your luggage in the overhead compartments.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (30:57)

Absolutely, well, for the younger audiences who might become parents, it's a shock realising that a young human is still what, four to seven or eight kilograms, and a person is heavy.

Melanie Wintle (31:09)

Yes.

Yeah, yeah. And then, you know, you're holding them on your hip. I have two kids, now they're 22 and 20. But you know, you're holding them on their hips, you're lifting them up. And sometimes you're lifting them even when they're four and five years old, just because they're, you know, they want mommy or daddy to carry them. Yeah, it's not just limited to newborns and babies that don't walk, right? You're lifting and carrying them for a long time.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (31:38)

I can't remember how many kilos or pounds it would be for a 9 or 10-year-old, but that's not light.

Melanie Wintle (31:39)

Thank you.

Well, you're piggybacking the nine and 10-year-olds, hopefully not putting them on your, on your hip. Yeah.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (31:54)

But the yoga, I follow yoga, I'm not an expert in it, but I follow it to learn and, and I can really personally feel the difference if I've had a few days, maybe I catch a cold and I don't do it for a week, and then suddenly I'm not bending the way I did a week ago. So I totally relate to what you said about how when you're doing something over time, whatever it might be, you can see how you're doing. Then if something has changed, it's telling you something, it's giving you information.

Melanie Wintle (32:29)

Well, it's giving you, it's telling you something, and it's also very encouraging and very validating, and it's very motivating because, you know, at the beginning, the hardest part is to become consistent, right? But then once you get, you start to nail down that consistency, you start to feel so good that you can't imagine going back to not doing it, you know, or you get sick, you know, and you can't work out. I broke my wrist in February, stillboarding, and ⁓ I couldn't work out for...

I mean, I did what I could, body weight stuff, ⁓ but I really missed it. And that was one of the first things that I thought, I've got to get back into it as soon as it's safe to do so.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (33:11)

Getting back in, definitely. And that's a lesson everybody needs to remember because we never know when someone will have an injury and then have to keep that wisdom in mind, really.

Melanie Wintle (33:13)

I hope.

Well, yeah, and now also being stronger going into the injury means you're going to have a better chance of getting out of it, right? And quicker, you have a quicker recovery when you have already have a stronger, more resilient body.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (33:37)

Absolutely. I'm learning so much from you because I'm not from the sporty background. And I think that when people are from perhaps a more nerdy or creative space and not so sporty, then we don't know these things that are going to make us more healthy. And one thing I wanted to go back to is you talked about people really focusing on their careers and I'm guessing the implication there is.

Melanie Wintle (33:42)

Thank

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (34:03)

Someone doing what eight or 12 hours into the office, things like that. And you said earlier that someone can perhaps have a walk, going to the coffee or whatever is around the water cooler. I'm curious, would you give a guideline as an approximate suggestion, even though everybody is different, get up every two hours, and have a stretch? I.

I don't like to be at a desk for hours anymore if I can help it. But for those who are at a desk a lot, what do they need to know?

Melanie Wintle (34:39)

⁓ The biggest thing I find is a ⁓ lot of people have very tight chest muscles. They're very, like, hunched over because of computer, especially. Unfortunately, too many people are using laptops without external monitors So, you know ergonomically that's not that's not the best situation is to be hunched over a laptop because also you're trying to sink your eyes down So you're putting a lot of strain on your neck. So one of the best things I is every two hours is a little bit too long, so I would say every hour.

Even if you don't get up from your desk, reverse the position that you're sitting in, that you're spending the most time in. So if that means that your arms are in front of you on a keyboard, and I know that some people are going to be listening to this and they're not going to hear or see what I'm saying, but you you can all picture somebody hunched over a keyboard, right? So everything is closed in within your chest. So what I basically tell people is reverse that position and open up your chest. Yeah. So like stretching up.

Really arching your low back and looking up right, so going in the opposite direction, and holding that for I know 10 10 seconds, and then you know release, and then go back into it, or standing up and doing some hip circles or doing circles around, moving your arms, anything that's counteracting what you're doing all day long.

Right? Imagine your hip flexors, right? So your hip flexors are bent and contracted all day long. Getting into a gentle lunge position is going to help ease some of that tension that builds up from sitting in that position for long periods of time. And then nowadays, so many of us have meetings over the phone, right? So, walking while you're on your telephone meetings, like, why not go outside? I have one patient who

He does that every single time he's on the phone, he goes for a walk, and he's talking. Thankfully, he doesn't have to take notes. Mean, it depends on what kind of meeting you're in, but that's one of the things that you can do. Or on your lunch hour, rather than sitting in the lunch room, start walking, right? Start, go outside for a walk or depending on the layout of your building, you can even just walk up and down the hallways or up and down the staircase. I used to do that. One of the buildings I worked in was just,

at lunchtime maybe do three or four sets of stairs just to change it up and get up and move around.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (37:08)

Does that give us a bit of an extra challenge going up and down the stairs? Does that have a different physical impact instead of going along the hallway?

Melanie Wintle (37:15)

Yeah, because going up is challenging because every time you put your foot on the step, then you're using your glutes and your quads and your hamstrings, all of your leg muscles are contracting to lift you up. And then going down, believe it or not, is actually harder than going up because you're using a breaking movement. So the leg that is still on the step has to support all of your weight while you're stepping down. And then the foot that is touching the step and goes down first, it's gotta brace the impact and then take all of the weight onto it as you step down. So going up and downstairs is a great, great, great exercise to do, if it's comfortable for you, obviously. And again, what you do on a daily basis is more important. So one of the things I love to tell people is if every day for the rest of your life, you stand up and you touch your toes.

You will be barring some kind of injury, you will always be able to touch your toes. It's stopping doing things that causes that, you know, lack of movement or that stiffening.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (38:21)

There are so many practical solutions here. And I really appreciate that the practical ideas you mentioned doing the opposite of what we're doing at a computer. And that sunk in so much for me because I pretty much always use a laptop. A lot of people do. And although that happens at a desk, people hunch over or even looking down at the screen. I know some people will put books or whatever they have under the laptop to put it up a bit more, but

Melanie Wintle (38:21)

for me.

Yes.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (38:50)

I was reminded I've had a couple more trips, long trips on a train recently, and a lot of people travel. So it'll be relevant to the audience that I found myself looking down at the laptop for a couple of hours, and I was in so much pain. I'm guessing that would make sense. And you said doing the opposite will help, so I found myself feeling desperate for a bit of a stretch to ease that. So, would you recommend that if

People are going on a flight, a train ride, or anything else. If someone is doing a lot of travel, is that going to be really crucial?

Melanie Wintle (39:26)

Yeah, well, our bodies are made to move, right? We are meant to move. We're not plants, we're not static. We are meant to move. And walking is one of the most natural movements, the most successful movements around. So I've recently done a couple of overseas trips as well to Europe. I'm in Canada, by the way. And so one day I really want to go to Australia. My mother-in-law is from Australia; she's from Brisbane. Yeah, my husband desperately wants to go to where...

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (39:52)

It's lovely over there.

Melanie Wintle (39:56)

Where his mother is from. But I, every time that, you know, the seatbelt sign is off, I hate to bother the people beside me and have to get them to shuffle, but I just get up and I start, you've seen people do that, walking up and down the aisles, right? You could, that's even more accessible and easy to do on a train, is walk up and down the aisles because, you know, you don't have those seatbelts. But just getting up whenever you can, just to avoid that stiffening and especially if you already have a low back condition or hip or knee, you don't want to stay in a position. Those people do get very stiff and sore from prolonged positions. Anybody who has arthritis, joint pain, or stiffness really suffers from sitting for prolonged periods.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (40:46)

So the simple accessible thing is to walk around wherever you can.

Melanie Wintle (40:51)

Absolutely. Yeah.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (40:53)

That's so easy. And it's worth keeping that in mind because there is the cost-of-living discussion these days, and people are careful about what they sign up to. And as much as I love signing up to the spaces that will help any form of wellness, but for those who are right now not putting any subscriptions in any way, or they can't visit a place. It sounds like what you're saying is if you can't get to a gym, it's

Okay, do something that she can do anyway.

Melanie Wintle (41:26)

I haven't worked out in a gym in over 20 years. I just have gradually built up what I have at home as I get stronger and need or the desire to try something new. I mean, it's way less expensive than belonging to a gym. Also, I said I'm in Canada. So the last thing I want to do in the middle of winter is bundle up, get in my car, drive to a gym. I also live in a rural area, so drive 15 to 20 minutes to the gym.

Get out, change, then get back home. Mean, you're talking two hours when I could have in 20 to 30 minutes done something more effective and more comfortable in my own home. You can work out in your pyjamas if you want, whatever you want.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (42:12)

That's something to keep in mind for any winter in any country, I think.

Melanie Wintle (42:15)

Yes,

You can start with bands, too, right? So body weight bands cost $20 Canadian from Amazon for a set of bands, and you can do a lot with those.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (42:28)

Easy.

And that's another thing, you don't have to even go shopping physically.

Melanie Wintle (42:37)

Exactly.

Yeah.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (42:39)

Mean, as much as we should support small businesses, if you need something accessible, you can have those affordable tools that you need in a day or two.

Melanie Wintle (42:48)

Yeah, and there aren't too many small businesses, unfortunately, that are selling exercise equipment anymore, right? So ⁓ Amazon is one of the places, unfortunately, where it's the easiest place to order some of these things.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (42:54)

Right.

⁓ I,

I subscribe to Amazon Prime. I'm not promoting it here. I'm just saying that it really does bring some things to you that you really need. That absolutely, absolutely. I'm in a small city that doesn't look like a small town, but it feels like one. And so I see where you're coming from. Sometimes you can get something delivered then.

Melanie Wintle (43:05)

Me too.

Especially if you're in a rural area, right? Yeah, yeah.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (43:32)

That will be helpful for all sorts of people. So I'm curious. So we talked about what the thirties, forties, and fifties can do. Let's dive into the really older demographics, because why not? I know some people who are far beyond retirement age, seventies, eighties, things like that. And I'm wondering,

If it is that late in life, but they want to improve things as best they can, what can they do?

Melanie Wintle (44:05)

It's never too late. First of all, the best time is now, right? It's not yesterday, it's not two weeks ago. I mean, it's whenever you're ready to start. So don't put that kind of pressure on yourself. I currently am training a 79-year-old woman, and in four weeks, she has gained a massive amount of strength and ability. And she was actually way more capable than she thought she was.

The problem is with age is that a lot of people think, ⁓ I'm older, I can't do this, or I won't be able to. I've got her walking up and down stairs, I've got her doing squats, I've got her doing exercises with the ball. I mean, it's been progressive, but ⁓ no, it's never too late to start. And again, it has to be something that starts at your level and then progresses as you gain your strength.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (44:58)

So part of this is believing that she can as well.

Melanie Wintle (45:01)

⁓ for sure, absolutely. You have to know that, I mean, there's been studies on older people and they have shown that they have gained strength ⁓ relatively quickly. It doesn't take a whole lot. Two to three times, and as you're older too, you're not dealing with jobs, you're not dealing with children, you're not dealing with the same time crunch that you would have had when you younger. So I actually love working with older individuals because they have more time. I find they are the

most consistent with their exercises because when you, especially if they're investing their money because they're retirees, especially if they're investing in you to teach them what to do, they're going to do what you've prescribed. And they derive a tremendous amount of benefit from it, for sure.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (45:50)

That's a fair point. They have the time do something meaningful with the time. It's great to see the cultural shift of older people living much more fulfilling life because I did see that in some people over the years. And of course, that was some of my grandparents and other people, but I think there is that stereotype culturally of the grin with the cane or the walking stick and

Melanie Wintle (46:17)

Yeah.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (46:18)

It's nice reminding people that it doesn't have to be that way. And we can look up to perhaps the public figures like Jane Fonda. I mean, there are some, she's doing okay, right?

Melanie Wintle (46:27)

⁓ yeah.

Yes, she's doing incredibly well. And who was the other woman I just, my aunt sent me, sent me a post about her. ⁓ Shoot, I can't remember her name, but there's another lady who's in her 80s as well, who was, who's, you know, very, very strong and do, is it Lauren Bacall? I can't remember. Another actress, very well, very well known actress from the US, but.

Also very, very strong, very fit, very healthy, very vital, right? It's that, again, it's that avoiding frailty that is the biggest thing, is that you don't want to be limited because you don't have the strength to get off the couch or to be able to enjoy your grandchildren or to be able to enjoy a walk on a nice day or travelling for that matter.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (47:22)

seeing the world, seeing people living life.

Melanie Wintle (47:26)

It also creates social isolation as well, right? And we know that social isolation is one of the biggest causes of lack of quality of life and dementia as you get older.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (47:27)

I'm curious.

It is that sounds really familiar because some people are teaching a lot about dementia and Alzheimer's at the moment. And it's also, of course, it was World Suicide Prevention Day, think that's what it was called. Over here in Australia, we had something called R U OK Day. So, preventing isolation that's of course relevant to all sorts of forms of health, mental, physical. And I'm hoping you would recommend, of course, walking groups because walking has been such a theme, but have you seen people sometimes having more of a habit with any sort of movement, strength or otherwise when they're in a group?

Melanie Wintle (48:21)

absolutely. Groups are one of the most supportive ways to stay fit, right? And it's also, you're encouraging each other to stay. So there's an accountability piece as well with that. ⁓ I don't know if you have that in Australia, but we have mall walkers in Canada. Those are all, yes, because we don't have outdoor malls. All of our malls are closed in. They're like very large spaces ⁓ with, I mean.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (48:37)

through the mall inside.

Melanie Wintle (48:46)

like you see in the TV and the American movies where you have large stores and ⁓ escalators and all of that stuff. you will see, yeah, so you have elderly people that will meet before the mall opens in the morning because in the wintertime here it's really too cold to be outside. ⁓ And also, you have the risks of slipping on snow, curbs, and all those other things. they will get together, they will meet and they will walk the malls, the perimeters of the malls for I don't know, an hour.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (48:54)

We have that.

Melanie Wintle (49:15)

or whatnot before the other patrons arrive.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (49:20)

Love that idea so much over here. So I'm along the coast, but in our winter that just went, we had, I think, three rounds of floods and the weather was extreme. Oh my gosh. A couple of times, I was realising again, we're having more floods, but I wasn't going out as much for that. And as much as I liked to go to particular places, it never occurred to me to just

Melanie Wintle (49:36)

Yeah.

So.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (49:48)

Go to the mall or the shops for those who aren't in America or Canada, go to the shopping centres or anything like that to walk around in a group. think that's a great idea. We need that everywhere else.

Melanie Wintle (50:02)

Yeah, well, I've been to California

Now twice, and the beauty of being in a warm environment, right, is that when you're there, you can't, I couldn't get over how active people are. Of course, I'm there in our winter, and because they have the benefit of relatively, you know, nice weather year round, they're just active all the time. So everybody's outside walking on the boardwalks. Everybody's outside meeting. You can see we were in Santa Monica, just outside of Los Angeles and

You know, the beaches are full of people walking, doing exercise classes, playing beach volleyball. I mean, it just definitely encourages more activity when you live ⁓ in those environments, but it's a collective. You could see a lot of people were getting together and doing it. It definitely gives you a motivation factor when you have a social group to do it with.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (50:55)

Absolutely. I can relate to that so much because I love to go for a walk along the water alone or with someone, because of course, I just love the sunshine and the peace away from the world. But I know that some people just don't do that. And someone told me earlier today that they just don't get to the beach, even though it's nearby. But I saw that, especially overseas, there are networking groups.

Where, if you want to network with these people, you're going to go for a walk. And that's outdoor walking networking. So maybe that will be the motivation for some people to get outside.

Melanie Wintle (51:36)

Well, instead of meeting for coffee, go for a walk together. Or instead of meeting for a drink, go for a walk, right? So in the UK, they go to their pubs, right? So instead of going to the pub, go for a walk and socialise that way. There are walking groups here all summer long. There's a ravine not too far from here, and there's a walking group that meets. And it's on Facebook. There's a Facebook group that goes with it. So.

I'm sure you can find Facebook groups of people in your local community that are doing these kinds of organised activities. Or pickleball, there's pickleball groups, everything.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (52:08)

Mind when.

There's so many groups, so many groups. And if there isn't one, I find that there is so many groups for 6 am and as much as I'm trying to learn to do mornings, if there's not the precise group you need, then make one, even if it starts with a few people, right?

Melanie Wintle (52:13)

I'm hungry. ⁓

Exactly.

Yeah, yeah, grab a few friends and start the group. Exactly.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (52:32)

We've really covered all of the demographics. We've covered hormones, walking around, and group activities. We got so many practical solutions. So as we wrap up in the last five or 10 minutes, I wanted to know what do you want everybody to know? What are three key lessons that everybody should know? And how do you want people to learn from you or connect with you?

Melanie Wintle (52:35)

you

⁓ Three key lessons. Well, again, I can't stress enough that it's never too late. It's never too late. ⁓ Just find something you like to do. Yoga, Pilates, whatever exercise you like to do. Any movement is better than no movement. ⁓ The second thing I would say is just don't underestimate yourself. You probably could do a lot more than you think that you can. ⁓ And then thirdly,

I think just give yourself some pain, be patient and give yourself some grace. It's not going to be perfect at the beginning. and, and, and just find a way to, ⁓ to get consistent. That's the hardest part. Find the consistency. And once you start feeling good, you're not going to want to stop.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (53:45)

Awesome.

To wrap up, how should people follow you, connect with you? Are you mainly serving people locally? What's the next step?

Melanie Wintle (53:57)

So I do provide online personalised fitness programs for people who are interested. We meet on a monthly basis, and we adapt and progress the program. I use an app to program the fitness based on their needs, ⁓ mostly strength training. But if they really want to, you know, adapt it to a running program, then that can be done as well. And I have, I'm on Instagram, Move Well underscore MW.

I'm also on Facebook Move Well with Dr. Melanie Wintle. I think that's it. Have a website, movewellhealth.ca.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (54:39)

You support people online. even if someone is anywhere else, as long as the timing aligns, then that's an option.

Melanie Wintle (54:46)

Yeah, I'm training a friend who is in Australia, just ran your Sydney Marathon. Was it a week and a half ago?

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (54:53)

I'm a couple of hours north of Sydney, but it's definitely that time of year. There are fun runs and walks all the time at the moment.

Melanie Wintle (54:55)

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (55:02)

Look, that's awesome. Melanie Wintle, thank you so much for talking.

Melanie Wintle (55:07)

Thank you so much, Melanie, for having me. It was a lot of fun.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (55:11)

Awesome.

Summary

In this enlightening conversation, Dr. Angela Genoni, a gut health expert, shares her journey into the field of gut health and the importance of understanding our microbiome. She emphasises the significance of dietary changes, the gut-brain connection, and the role of fibre and polyphenols in maintaining gut health. Dr. Genoni discusses the impact of busy lifestyles on eating habits and the need for balance in life. She also highlights the importance of parents modelling healthy habits for their children and the role of corporate wellness in improving productivity. The conversation concludes with a vision for a more communal approach to food and health, encouraging families to connect through cooking and sharing meals together.

Show Notes

All notes and transcripts are automatically generated with as much accuracy as possible.

Keywords

gut health, microbiome, dietary changes, gut-brain connection, fibre, polyphenols, sustainable eating, parenting, corporate health, community

Takeaways

Gut health is crucial for overall well-being.

Poop samples provide insight into gut microbiome health.

Diet has a significant influence on gut health and mood.

A diverse diet rich in plants is essential for gut health.

Fibre and polyphenols play vital roles in gut health.

Fresh and frozen fruits and vegetables both retain fibre.

Busy lifestyles require sustainable dietary changes.

Balance in life contributes to better gut health.

Parents should model healthy eating for their children.

Corporate health initiatives can improve productivity and morale.

Titles Unlocking the Secrets of Gut Health The Gut-Brain Connection Explained Sound bites

"Gut health is crucial for overall well-being."

"A diverse diet rich in plants is essential."

"Fresh and frozen fruits retain fibre."

Chapters

00:00 Introduction to Gut Health and Dr. Angela Genoni

02:01 The Importance of Poop Samples in Gut Health

04:40 Diet and Its Role in Gut Health

07:44 The Power of Fibre and Plant Diversity

11:00 Fresh vs. Frozen: What's Best for Gut Health?

14:02 Balancing Busy Lifestyles and Nutrition

16:52 The Impact of Leadership on Health Culture

19:52 Mindfulness and Micro Habits for Better Health

22:52 Measuring the Impact of Gut Health

25:37 Empowering Personal Health Goals

28:51 The Cultural Significance of Food

29:41 Family Influence on Nutrition and Health

30:16 Navigating Teenage Eating Habits

33:45 The Role of Policy in Food Culture

35:38 The Importance of Community in Food Preparation

39:24 Long-Term Dietary Changes for Mental Health

43:08 Debunking Food Myths: Carbs and Sugar

46:12 Understanding Ultra-Processed Foods

49:02 The Bigger Picture of Food Choices

51:18 Building Community Through Shared Meals

Transcript

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (00:01)

We have the honor today of talking to Dr. Angela Gennoni, the gut health expert in Perth in Australia. Dr. Angela, thank you so much for being on the show.

Dr Angela Genoni (00:17)

Thank you for having me.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (00:19)

Let's start with how did you get into gut health?

Dr Angela Genoni (00:23)

This is a great story. I like telling this one because ⁓ I got into gut health a little bit by accident actually because I was planning to go back to uni after I had my kids to do postgraduate study and I did a small project for an honours degree and one of the findings from that honours degree was that my participants were suffering some gut issues so my supervisor suggested, why don't you look at the gut for your PhD.

And I was a little bit apprehensive, actually, because I knew that it meant that I'd be in the lab with poop samples for a few years. So I said yes. And actually, it's been hands down one of the best things I've ever done in my life. Yes, slightly by accident, but I've enjoyed every minute of it.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (01:13)

Poop samples for a few years. That's perspective because gut health has become a trending topic for a few years. People talk about it. We're all wondering how we can look after our gut and our overall health. But for those who don't know, why is the poop sample so important?

Dr Angela Genoni (01:15)

Yes.

So the only way we can really tell what your gut microbiome is doing is by looking at what we poop out because the majority of what we actually poop out is the bacteria that live in our colon. And the best way to get a picture of what's happening in there is to take all those little bacteria from your poop and sequence the DNA so we know which ones are there and what they're doing.

And that is the best way, that is really the only way we have to do that. So when people talk about gut health and gut microbiome, you must think about and feel sorry for all the scientists that have gone before with poop in the lab.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (02:19)

Fair enough.

Hopefully, a lot of people will be able to understand their gut health a little bit without having to have their poop tested. Can people learn a bit before reaching that point?

Dr Angela Genoni (02:35)

Yeah, in fact, I don't usually recommend testing myself. I would only recommend clients do it if we've ruled out a lot of other things first, and then we still can't get to the bottom of it with diet. The thing with microbiome testing is that it's very expensive for the consumer to do it. Like it's really cool science, but it's very expensive. And you might be looking at, you know, around $500 for an accurate test of what's in your gut. So it's quite interesting if you've got the money and you want to do that, but the treatments are usually very similar for different circumstances. So that's why I don't normally go down that path unless absolutely necessary, because we can make a lot of improvements in your gut just through making some dietary changes. And those dietary changes are very

quickly noticeable with how you're feeling, and that's the main outcome, is how you're feeling, how you're sleeping, are you feeling energised, can you perform well at work, you know, all of those things that go along with having a healthy gut.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (03:48)

Are you saying that someone's energy and ability to sleep can be influenced by the gut?

Dr Angela Genoni (03:54)

Absolutely. That's your the we know, I mean, the gut-brain axis has become very popular and quite trending, but your gut is quite intricately linked with just about every other part of your body. So, yes, your mood and things to do with how, you know, clear-headed and productive you might feel are definitely related to your gut and vice versa. The communication goes both ways, but also things like ⁓

inflammation, your ⁓ ability to have immune protection, your bone health, your cardiovascular disease risk, they're all linked quite closely with the health of your gut.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (04:38)

Is the gut health mostly or entirely about what we eat, and to what extent is it affected by other things like stress?

Dr Angela Genoni (04:47)

So the research is quite clear that diet is the biggest driver of your gut microbiome composition. So a lot of people get caught up and only focus on the diet. But, and I say a big but here because there's many other things that also influence the gut. And when I work with clients, I think some of those other things are actually just as important as your diet because they influence that gut-brain communication as well. So, things like exercise, ⁓ being out in nature, social connections, your environment. We can't underestimate the role of some of those things, even though they might not influence your gut directly sometimes; they indirectly influence your gut. And the whole, all of our body systems are so intricately linked that if we get so caught up on our diet and we're so anxious about what we're eating,

then actually we're doing ourselves a disservice in many other areas of our life. So I'm very focused on having a bit more of a four-pillared approach, which encompasses the other aspects that influence your gut health as well as diet.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (05:59)

the other pillars as well as the diet. So as much as the environment and our social life can influence it, it sounds like people need to know more about what they do need to

Dr Angela Genoni (06:02)

Yep.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (06:13)

For those who are wondering what they can eat to improve their gut, I'm hoping you can bust a few myths here because we see the word fibre on packaging for something that might not be an actual whole food, and people might not have heard about the importance of diverse plants. I'm asking you from the background of being a vegan, but respecting those people who aren't, but I'm wondering what do people need to know about what to eat?

Dr Angela Genoni (06:39)

Yep.

Okay, so this is where people can very easily get caught up, and people get quite feisty when it comes to diets. And we do need to be, you know, respectful, like you said, that people are on their own journey when it comes to diets. So the first thing is we need to empower ourselves to make choices that are right for our bodies and not get caught up listening to what social media tells us to do. And secondly, fibre is one word, right? But it actually is

several hundred compounds that make up that, that fall under that definition of fibre. So when we think about fibre, we see it on a label, we might think, it's just one type of food, you know, an ingredient or a component that's within the food. And no, there's so many different types of fibre. And the thing we need to stop and remember is that each one of those types of fibre

is the preferred food for different types of bacteria in our gut. So if we want to have a diverse gut microbiome, which is what we're aiming for, we need to have a diverse range of fibre in our diet. And that means we need to eat a diverse range of plants. So it doesn't matter what that diversity looks like for you in terms of how you structure that, as long as you include a good amount of plant foods and that every meal has a good amount of plants. And whether you structure your breakfast with more grain-type foods or you have more fruits and then have more vegetables during the latter part of the day, it doesn't matter. Just switch it up. ⁓ Give your gut some variety every now and again. Choose some different colours now and again. Try something new now and again, but make sure it's lots of plants.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (08:40)

Lots of plants. You agree with the eat the rainbow idea.

Dr Angela Genoni (08:41)

Yep.

Absolutely, and I have an education program which I run, and inside that program, we talk a bit about so fibre is one thing that feeds the microbiome but there's other factors in food that can also influence the populations in our gut, and those are things like polyphenols, like the colourful parts of our food products, because

They don't directly provide food for the bacteria in there, but they do modify the populations, and they're important. They're an important player in the ecosystem in general. So we do need to make sure we have a broad range of colors as well, because those polyphenol compounds are quite significant in terms of helping the good guys thrive in that ecosystem, and what we want is those good guys to be thriving and healthy so they can produce lots of the byproducts that make us healthy.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (09:44)

Absolutely. The polyphenols, is that as simple as a colored fruit or vegetable like getting the bright orange carrots, pumpkins, and the fruits, the blueberries, the strawberries, is it as simple as that?

Dr Angela Genoni (09:53)

Yes. Yep.

Yeah, it definitely is. Again, polyphenols is one word. But if you look at the chemical composition chart, there's hundreds of different compounds that fall under that definition. And, you know, like we just said before about fiber polyphenol, each one of those types of polyphenols can have differing effects inside that gut environment. So eating a diverse range of those colors is a good idea because each of them can have separate

and quite beneficial effects to help support the populations of the beneficial bacteria that live in there.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (10:39)

Amazing. Really curious. To what extent would you tell people to focus on the raw or the completely fresh foods? And to what extent are you all right with things like some frozen vegetables and fruits? So, where do you draw the line on fresh and not-so-fresh?

Dr Angela Genoni (10:58)

So the good thing to remember with fruits and vegetables, the fibre stays there. So if you eat them raw or if you cook it or if you eat it frozen, the fibre is still there. It's still the same. It doesn't go away. They might change in water composition because you've cooked it or you've frozen it, but the fibre is still there. So if you want to eat fresh, like raw,

Go for it if you cook them; if you prefer them cooked, that's absolutely fine. I think I don't love it when I see people getting ⁓ upset with each other for cooking versus eating them raw, because at the end of the day, we all just need to eat the vegetables like we just need more vegetables, and we just need more fruit. It doesn't really matter how we get them. We just need to be eating them. The only caveat on that is that if you are juicing, then you can be losing the fibre because obviously, the pulp that you get left with is actually the bit that your gut bacteria want to be eating. If you want to make it into some kind of drink, then a smoothie is preferable because the fibre stays in the drink rather than being thrown away.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (12:16)

That's important for people to remember because so often it's assumed that a bottle of juice from the supermarket or a trendy juice when going out will be the healthy option. But are you saying that it won't have as much of a health benefit as just having a smoothie or the original whole food?

Dr Angela Genoni (12:39)

Yeah

Yeah, exactly. And look, juices do have a place. I'm not anti-juice at all, because, you know, sometimes I mean, they still got the polyphenols in there, for example, you still get the color, and it's still some fluid. So it's not all bad to have juice every now and again, especially if it's fresh juice. But if you are needing to increase your fiber, which most people are, it is better to eat the whole fruit or vegetable.

and or have a smoothie where you've blended up, so the fibre is still in the drink itself.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (13:13)

That's really encouraging because I think that when we know there's less fibre, we can start going to the extremes. And it sounds like having something at all as a start, even if some things are better. wanted to zoom in on some different lifestyles and what's needed. I saw on your website that you support corporates and their busy lifestyles.

Dr Angela Genoni (13:25)

Yeah.

Mm.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (13:38)

That issue of trying to look after ourselves during a busy lifestyle has come up a lot, and people are feeling time-poor. I wonder if you've seen people feeling more time poor than ever, and is that the main issue, and are there other concerns that the corporates are having, and what have you been recommending to

Dr Angela Genoni (14:00)

think the diet, the way we've done diets in the past, is probably erring on the side of being a bit too extreme. And nutrition culture has been to give people a meal plan or a very strict diet to follow. And then people get hard on themselves during the week when they can't stick to those things because let's face it, life is really busy, and ⁓ I'm living that challenge with you. I've got three teenage boys and...

I run a house on my own. So I know what it's like, and we have to be more sustainable with the way that we make changes, and we do nutrition to people, because telling people or throwing advice at people without helping them understand the why and the how and what's happening inside their body actually makes people feel deflated.

and down on themselves before they've even got to the part where they're feeling better. And I think we need to flip it around a little bit and help empower people, help them want to nurture their body, and help them focus on looking after themselves for the right reasons, know, for something inside their heart rather than because we told them to. So those issues are quite big when it comes to people with like a corporate job and then

When I do do corporate work, also do from a leadership perspective, encourage the leaders to walk the walk. If you want your staff to be healthy, you have to be the one to model the behaviors that encourage that and support that behavior.

So, making sure that you take your time for exercise, that you go home early and spend some time with your family, because those things make people whole. And we can't forget that bit. We're all human, and we all need to live and have our lives outside of work. So if we have a happy balance, then everybody wins.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (16:05)

It sounds like the happy, balanced life is a part of a happy God and a happy health.

Dr Angela Genoni (16:10)

And exactly, and I talk about that in my book a bit, actually, because we can't hone in on the diet and get so hung up on little bits of food ingredients without considering the bigger picture, because doing that just misses the point completely of all the other science in all the other areas of your life. So what's the point of worrying about that one thing?

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (16:39)

Want to really check what happens when leaders don't look after themselves I know that's a momentary look at the diamond gloom but I think people need a reality check.

Dr Angela Genoni (16:51)

Yeah, I think it's very easy, particularly when you've got staff or even like when you're a parent, you know how you feel when you're a bit on edge, you're tired, you've been working too hard, perhaps you're not sleeping well. We all know we get a bit irritable at that point. And so, how good are we going to be doing at our job if we're feeling that way?

And how good are we going to be leading staff if we're already feeling a bit grumpy when we get to the office in the morning? So we can't expect ourselves to keep showing up and performing, whether we're a leader or whether we're a parent or whether we're anything in life, unless we look after ourselves. And once you start that process of feeling better, you can look back with a bit of hindsight and go, ⁓ actually, yeah, I feel...

I'm doing a better job now, I'm showing up a bit more, you know, as the person that I want to be rather than just surviving.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (17:53)

You went back to parents again and that's worth exploring because parents have such an influence over their children, over the schools and the communities they are in. So what can parents do? And I'm really keen to ask. So you have three teenagers and you're doing this amazing work. How do you keep your life healthy with all that happening?

Dr Angela Genoni (18:19)

That's a good question. ⁓ I am very busy, and I am a high achiever, and I know that. But I think the health factors for me are just non-negotiable. I don't feel good unless I've exercised. I don't feel good unless I've had enough sleep. And I know that I'm a nice parent and I'm a nice partner if I do those things. And so it's kind of...

It's in my non-negotiables to do those. So I do prioritise them. And sometimes that means I do get, feel like I've got a bit of a backlog of work to do, but I feel good when I'm doing that. So it just has to get done, and it gets done before I do a lot of other things because it's important. So I do make time to do those things, which are to cook dinner and to have dinner with my kids every night.

to exercise most days. So those things are just important to do and important to model for my kids to do.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (19:20)

It sounds like you know you're going to be creating more value for your work and your kids when you are prioritizing those.

Dr Angela Genoni (19:28)

Yeah,

and I think sometimes it's a bit of false economy to say that you don't have time because you take a break to go and do some exercise and you know the exercise might take you 40 minutes and then a shower so it might be an hour say out of your day but you think about how much fresher in your your brain you feel after you've done that.

And then your productivity is probably 20, 30 % better for the few hours after you had that exercise session. In some ways, it's really easy to say, I don't have time to do it. But in fact, once you've been out and you've done it, you get more done. I look, I always look at it that way. And sometimes I have make time to have a, I work at home a lot. So sometimes I make time to have a meditation in the afternoon because I know that I feel more fresh and I can do more after I've done that. It's all about knowing what works for each person.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (20:32)

Mindfulness makes such a difference. And have you found that the little micro habits like the five or 10-minute options are effective, whether it's the five-minute recipe or the 10-minute meditation? Have you found that that's helping people just as much?

Dr Angela Genoni (20:51)

Yeah, absolutely. I do also one of the four pillars of gut health is the lifestyle components. And particularly for people that are struggling with their gut or people with IBS, we know that mindfulness and relaxation can help calm that gut-brain chatter. And it can help just calm things down, just taking 10 minutes.

Whether it's breathing exercises, meditation, or a little bit of exercise, it can really help calm that system down. And then that goes hand in hand with some dietary changes. Then, and then it's not just your gut that feels better, then it's all of you that starts to feel better. So you might start this process for a gut reason, but you end up feeling better as a person as a result, because you've made a few little changes that have had progressive and impactful changes in your life.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (21:55)

I'll definitely explore the topic of families more in a moment, but as much as I completely align with what you're saying about how we can just simply feel better, and it's that straightforward, there will be some audiences out there who love to have something measurable. And I know your website mentioned something about reducing absenteeism for those who need something measured. How is the gut health going to improve things?

Dr Angela Genoni (22:12)

Mm.

So this is where it's really like gut, everyone's interested in gut health. So it's a good way to engage people because it's just an area of strong interest. So that's a good way to get people on board. But talking about gut health is for me, is a way of helping people learn to have confidence with their body by understanding it a bit better from the inside and out.

So if you know a bit more detail about how your digestive system functions and what the gut microbiome is, where it lives, how it works, what foods it needs to have, then making choices for yourself becomes a bit easier and a bit more empowering. And then once you start implementing a few small sustainable changes in your diet, and you start feeling better, you start sleeping better, then even things like your immune function can improve, if your mood improves, your productivity is also likely to improve, and all of those things go hand in hand. And then if it's also being modelled down by leadership, then we've got leaders that are inspiring, staff that are happy, and a bit healthier.

Then they're less likely to get sick. And it's kind of it's a win-win from both angles.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (24:00)

They're less likely to get sick. And you mentioned how people can feel more confident about their bodies when they're looking after themselves. That could possibly help people's personal brands and their career progression. Have you seen that happening where people feel more confident in their image and how they present to the world?

Dr Angela Genoni (24:23)

Absolutely. I, I, the first sort of half of my book, I actually talk about that the most because I, I think it's the most important part of that journey of focusing on yourself, and like, where do you want to be in five years? Does your current health support you doing that? And if the answer to that is no, what do we do to get you there? And let's make it a

positive thing rather than telling you you have to lose five kilos, let's make it something positive, like I want to be fit enough to go and hike in Peru next year. Those things are hugely positive goals rather than the restriction that comes with superficial outcomes like losing weight and flipping your mindset around about that can really be very empowering, and then combined with some dietary changes, which are gut-focused, can build people up instead of making them feel down.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (25:26)

Absolutely, the goals that are meaningful in life, and isn't it great when people end up losing weight when it's not their primary goal, and then it's an added bonus.

Dr Angela Genoni (25:39)

And that's where it becomes easy then, because they've kind of forgotten about it because they're busy living their life, focusing on things that are actually meaningful for their soul. And then the weight loss happens, then by accident, when they were trying for five years to lose two kilos before that. And when you stop and have your attention focused in the right place for the right reason, then one, it's easier to get to that goal, and two, good things happen on the journey.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (26:14)

They do. You are freeing people and freeing people's mindset and the focus. So they have more freedom to think about other things and to let go of the obsession. think you would have seen, of course, that decades ago, in particular, there were so many diets over the years, or even people exercising to lose weight, all these things. And

Dr Angela Genoni (26:29)

Yep.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (26:43)

It sounds like what you've seen is some people became tethered throughout the day, and it's controlling how they live lives.

Dr Angela Genoni (26:52)

Yes, and during my PhD, actually, I studied low-carb diets for my PhD, and I saw a lot of people that were very extreme with the way that they did their diets to the point where they would not go out for dinner with their friends because they weren't sure they could get a meal that was going to be accommodated. And missing out on life because of your thoughts around your diet, I think misses the point of food, and one I love. I love Italy, and I've been to Italy several times in the last few years, but one thing that I love about Italian culture is the celebration of food. It's food is love, food is family, food is sharing time together. It's not all calories, and

like we sort of get caught up here, it's more than that. It's part of their embedded in their way of loving each other. And I think we lost that somewhere along the way. And we kind of need to bring a bit of that back and forget about the details and go back to the big picture.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (28:14)

They also tend to make their own food.

Dr Angela Genoni (28:18)

Yes,

Yes, exactly. They prepare the food together. It's local. It's fresh. So there's lots of better things about the food culture when we look at those Mediterranean regions than what we do here. And it just makes you stop and think when you put all the other pieces of science together, it just makes you stop and think, well, I think, you know,

we've perhaps got things a little bit wrong with the way we've done things, and perhaps we need to step back. Let's put all the pieces of the science together and appreciate food for what it is.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (28:55)

It sounds like part of the science and medicine of what you do is encouraging people to simply enjoy food.

Dr Angela Genoni (29:02)

Yes, yes, exactly. Once you've learned a bit more about your body and you understand a bit more how it works, then you've got a little bit more empowerment by yourself to not get sucked into some of those things that you might see on extreme diets and so on. And also seeing the bigger picture also helps you feel a little bit less stressed about it as well, because you know what your body needs. You also can see the bigger picture.

So then you can start to put it into perspective, into how it fits in with your life and how you want to live your life and how it fits with your family.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (29:41)

So fitting things into how life is.

Dr Angela Genoni (29:45)

Yeah, exactly. It's, you know, food has to be part of your daily schedule. We can't tell people to eat a certain way because we don't know what work schedule they have, how many trips they have to do after school with the children, like, you know, what other things they have on in their life, what other health conditions they might have. So we can't we can't make assumptions about people and what kind of diet they want because your diet has to be

Your diet, not anyone else's.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (30:18)

It's a personal choice. Let's look at families a bit more for a moment because it's worth especially looking at what children eat. And I'm wondering, do you think that schools need to do things differently, along with parents changing their attitudes?

Dr Angela Genoni (30:19)

Yeah.

This is a tough one because, you know, I've got three boys and boys eat an absolute truckload of food, and I probably don't even want to disclose my grocery bill because they're way taller than me, my boys, you know, they're all sporty, so they eat a lot of food. But I think generally, and you know, other parents may have different opinions, but I think younger kids are pretty good at eating, you know, what parents provide for them, and generally, lunch boxes ⁓ could be improved a little bit for the younger kids, but a lot of kids do eat a good variety when it's packed for them. I think the hard part is those teenage years when there's a lot of processed food, easy food, ⁓ peer pressure. That's where the school culture around food could probably be a bit better.

But it's hard, you know, they're teenagers, they're finding their way in life. And, you know, we have to find a balance too. I know I don't want my boys to grow up with any disordered eating or to feel that certain foods are bad. I'm just setting an example, and hopefully one day they'll come back and follow my example with how they eat. But for now, you know, they just do what their friends are doing. And unfortunately, sometimes that means they eat a fair bit of junk. But

Yeah, I think that the culture around fast food and processed foods as a society, we need to shift that somehow, but I'm not sure of the answer there.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (32:19)

So it sounds like there just isn't a solution to that one because especially the fast food, it hasn't gone away. And a lot of us in our heads, would you agree? We know intellectually that some of these foods aren't good for us. We know that, but groups will end up leaning towards it anyway. But it sounds like there's not a lot we can always do.

Dr Angela Genoni (32:26)

No.

Yeah, and it's very confusing too, because on one hand, we know that ultra-processed foods are not great for us. But we also know, we and we see every day when we go to the supermarket, that a lot of ultra-processed foods also have some kind of health claim on them. So then it becomes, well, is this a healthy ultra-processed food? Or is this a bad ultra-processed food? Because where's the line? Like, it's very difficult for people, everyday people to work out.

Is this one okay, or is this one not? And if I'd asked any one of my clients how much ultra-processed food they ate, they would say, not much. And it's because when they've eaten those foods, they've sort of been clopped in their mind as a health food because of those labels that are somewhat misleading. It is a very difficult area, and it requires input around the whole food system.

about policy from a top-down approach. So it's a much bigger conversation than we can solve here today, that's for sure.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (33:52)

Right, you're saying it's a policy issue.

Dr Angela Genoni (33:55)

Yeah, I think it has to come down to many stakeholders talking, and yeah, how do we improve access to fresh, healthy foods? How do we encourage people to cook together as a family? How do we go back to those more simple food environments where we naturally eat less of those foods? Those are the conversations which will shift.

those types of societal behaviors. And for now, it's very much pushed back on the individual in terms of you need to eat two fruits and five vegetables, but we don't stop and tell people why they need to do that and why the gut microbiome is so important in that conversation. And that's where, like I'm trying to slot in and just help people understand the why and the how behind it, so they want to nurture their body better.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (34:50)

The purpose can help people.

Dr Angela Genoni (34:52)

Yes,

Yes, exactly. I don't, you know, many of my clients have not learned about human biology since high school. So you know, it's a long time and you know, we all know where our stomach is. Beyond that, in the digestive system, it's all a bit confusing. So going back and helping people work that out and go, that's why that happens when I eat that, you know, that's like those are big light bulb moments for people. And it's, it's lovely to see when people

have enough knowledge to empower themselves with their food decisions.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (35:27)

It sounds like community was emerging as a bit of a theme in what you said before about how people need to enjoy cooking and eating together. It's about being communal. Do you think that our culture needs to become more communal essentially?

Dr Angela Genoni (35:38)

Mm.

Yeah, I think when we look at other cultures where the, like a Mediterranean style food culture, but those types of societies also would see less impact of things like anxiety and depression because the social connectedness that comes along with preparing food together and eating food together can't be underestimated.

when we connect with one another, we benefit our food intake and we're preparing food together, but we also benefiting our mental health and there's social, there's benefits to the gut microbiome from the gut brain access from that social connectedness, but also we are sharing bacterial populations with one another. So it benefits our gut directly as well, and they're all interlinked. And I think that's the take—home message from my book and my program is that the all of the parts of our body and our society, they're all linked in together. And this is a beautiful ecosystem inside our gut. And it's not just one thing that can fix it. It's many things. And we have to step back and see the see the big picture.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (37:07)

It's many things. Are you saying the gut can change just being around other people?

Dr Angela Genoni (37:12)

Yes, yes. And I talked about it. There's a few studies which are quoted in my book about when you go to social interactions, right, you hug other people, you might kiss other people, you might share food with other people. So yes, you're sharing bacterial loads with them. And yes, that is reflected in your gut microbiome composition. So yes, it's entirely possible that going out

socially and kissing all your relatives once a week impacts your gut microbiome because you're just picking up different bacterial loads from all of those social interactions and eating different foods and ⁓ trying new things and being in different environments. So that can all have an impact.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (38:01)

That's especially relevant. It's worth acknowledging that there are some mental health awareness days and weeks at the moment, like R U OK Days. So that's going to tie in with that really neatly. So if someone was thinking that their situation is getting really extreme, perhaps they know their gut is kind of wrecked in some way. Do they need to?

Dr Angela Genoni (38:12)

Yeah.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (38:30)

Go to the GP. Do they need to find someone like you? What's the first?

Dr Angela Genoni (38:35)

think the first step is always the, you know, see your GP, see your medical professional. It's like with any other illness; changing your diet can be very significant in terms of your clinical outcomes. But it's not the thing that often requires immediate treatment, you know, the pharmacological interventions, and seeing your care provider is your first stop.

And then we can come in and supplement what they're doing with some dietary changes. Because if someone's feeling really down, then they probably can't have the energy to make any dietary changes at that point in time. So we've got to get people feeling a bit better first before we can help with the dietary changes to help people climb out of where they are.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (39:30)

Is your dietary solution about long-term habits?

Dr Angela Genoni (39:33)

Absolutely. And I'm very much against, you know, radical changes to diets, because we know, you know, research is very clear that if you go on some extreme diet, yes, you might lose weight and you might look feel fantastic. And everyone tells you Look fantastic for 12 months, but most people will put that weight back on, and some within 12 months of stopping that diet. And that is not a recipe for long-term health. So let's do it right, right from the start, and let's help people understand the why. So why they need to focus on their, their body and how amazing their body is and that they should love their body for what it can do. And then, you know, find some positive goals, which are not weight related and make things, make changes slowly enough that you can embed them into your routines because

If you do it slowly enough, then you build up your confidence just because you're doing it. You're smashing it. If you can add in one apple a day for the next week, wow, look at you go. You've ticked something off. And those things build you up instead of dragging you down. And that's what we want.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (40:51)

starting with one change at a time.

Dr Angela Genoni (40:53)

Yeah, one change at a time, because if you think about it, if you look forward in the future three months, if you only made one change of Fortnite for three months, you still made six changes. And those six changes could be all your diet needed to get it from not so good to fantastic. So, you know, it doesn't take much to turn your whole dietary pattern around if you do it slowly and you won't even really notice it if you do it in that way.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (41:28)

You're preventing overwhelm. And I really appreciate that because there are some experts out there who will provide a long list of things to try. And it can just look like so much, and where to begin. So you're telling people just to do one thing. And it sounds like there's a lot of self-forgiveness in this, that it's not about being perfect.

Dr Angela Genoni (41:30)

Yes, yes.

Mm.

No, and I dislike it when the one things that you start with should be things that you add in, not that you take away. So we're not restricting what you're doing. We're just going to give you a few extra grams of fibre a day to start your on your journey. And then as you go on with your one thing, you can, you know, subtract something else out later on, or you can swap something. understanding that dietary change is hard.

And understanding that your gut bacteria need to be fed, just like your cat or your dog, you need to feed your little guys in your gut as well. And understanding that those bacteria are going to give you health benefits in return for eating that stuff. Then it becomes a little bit more motivating to just make that one change at a time. And yes, I don't.

I don't believe in being overwhelmed because I think as a society, we've had enough of that when it comes to diets. We just want things that are, and I think there is a bit more of a movement to having a bit more science into what we're doing, and also making things a little bit less extreme. ⁓ You know, those are the people that I really love working with because, yeah, the ones that are sick of diets, because

We need to make it more sustainable.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (43:20)

You sound so passionate about being sick of diets. And especially, you mentioned the carb-free diet that some people try. I love carbs. I am in love with carbs, but people are so scared of that. And some people are thinking everybody should be gluten-free. Let's go ahead and what are the food rules people need to get rid of like that?

Dr Angela Genoni (43:22)

Yeah.

Cool.

Yes!

Okay, so the carbs one is a big one, and I see I'm on social media a bit with because of my business, and the fiber one comes up quite regularly actually, around carbs, or you don't need fiber, and you don't need carbs and ⁓ the evidence is so clear that yes, we do need them. The carbohydrates provide really the majority of the food source for your gut bacteria. So

Don't let anybody tell you that you don't need to have carbohydrates because your gut needs to eat, and without the carbohydrates from fibers from grains and cereals, they don't get fed much. So that is one myth that has to go. And the other one is fruit. Fruit is not toxic. Fruit is good for your gut, and it's especially good for your gut. all of the...

colourful compounds that are in fruit plus the fruit sugars, yes, they're sugars, but they're packaged up with fibre and the polyphenols, they're very good for us, and they're especially good for our gut bacteria, so we need to eat more fruit.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (45:03)

The fruit for those who are panicking that there's sugar in fruit, you're saying it's surrounded by something that makes it okay. It's not the same as the sugar in candy.

Dr Angela Genoni (45:04)

Yes.

Correct, yes. The thing with the sugars, the processed sugars, the issue with those, they are a carbohydrate. So it can be a bit confusing there because carbohydrates in general are quite good for our gut microbiome. But simple sugars from...

In isolation, like when we have them in sweets and cakes and so on, the quantity is so much greater than what you would get from fruit. And the types of bacteria that can eat those simple sugars are not necessarily the good ones. So we that's why simple sugars in the colon are not so desirable. And that's why, you know, fruit is fine because it's packaged up with the fibre. But when it comes to

know, lollies and so on. It doesn't have that benefit. So that's why it can be more detrimental.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (46:15)

So the sugar, the ultra-processed, actually, it's better late than never, defining ultra-processed for those who don't know.

Dr Angela Genoni (46:25)

So ultra processed foods are there, there is in the academic literature, there is four different classes of processing of foods. So ultra-processed foods doesn't include like the minimally processed foods like breads and that you would make at home. Like if you made a bread, you you processing it, but it's not, doesn't count as an ultra-processed food. So if it's ultra-processed,

It's using ingredients that we would generally not have available to us at home to make that food. So that makes it pretty easy. If you look at the ingredients list and you've seen a whole list of things that you can't buy in the supermarket to make it yourself, then it counts as an ultra-processed food.

But again, I also like to help people not get too hung up on that because you could spend your whole life in the supermarket looking at labels, which is also not helpful. So if you're only eating those foods, you know, now and again, or on Friday night or whenever it is, then is it really an issue? Probably not. It's better if we just say, "'Let's try not to eat the stuff in the packets, full stop.' And then we don't need to have that conversation with ourselves about is this ultra-processed or not it's just yeah it's just an easier discussion to just go - I'm just going to buy the less processed bread and that's done.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (48:00)

less processed. Does this mean that if the tub of hummus at a party has preservatives in it, but it's the one-off celebration, we'll all be okay?

Dr Angela Genoni (48:06)

Yep.

Yes, exactly. It's all in the dose, right? Like, yes, it's got preservatives in it. And yes, those preservatives might have an impact on our gut bacteria, because what's their role in food is to prevent bacterial growth. So, of course, it makes sense that yes, they might still have that effect once they reach our colon. But if we're having it once at a party over a two-month period, is that a problem? No. Like, we're getting worried about things that are probably not

worth worrying about in the context of our total diet, and that's where we need to think about the big picture, because it's the total diet that matters, and those occasional things probably don't matter very much.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (48:55)

This is so encouraging, especially I think when we wanted to get it right, especially when someone is a parent or simply wanting to do the right thing. You're saying it's not black and white and we don't have to pass and not fail all the time with our food choices. It's okay.

Dr Angela Genoni (49:16)

Absolutely. It is okay to be human and it is okay to eat foods that you just want to eat now and again. It's okay if you're having ice cream or pizza now and again. it's, we need to, it's more important probably that you eat those foods with your family and have it and make it part of a celebration and it becomes something joyful in life rather than stressing about the actual food. So.

There's a bigger picture at play and I think sometimes we get too caught up on all the ingredients rather than enjoying food for being food.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (49:56)

This became so much more of a version of holistic than I even expected.

Dr Angela Genoni (50:02)

It's gut health-focused, but it's gut health in the right place, isn't it? It's got to be, we can't have a diverse gut microbiome without having this conversation, actually, because there's so much more to gut health than just, you know, focusing on all of the fibre that we're eating.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (50:23)

So it sounds like what we really need for our overall health, because the gut health, from what I understand, just to let me know if this is right, the gut health can pretty much affect everything. Everything. So it sounds like, for our overall health in any way, we need to simply try to eat right when we can, but live life.

Dr Angela Genoni (50:34)

Yes, correct. Yep, yep.

Yes, eat more plants, eat more plants, eat more plants with your family, sit down together with your family, move your body, prioritise your exercise and your sleep, and your gut will improve, but also probably many other things in your life will improve too, and the gut is just one part of supporting all of those things.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (51:12)

That's amazing wisdom. As we get close to an hour, I want to wind up by checking the ideals. Why not go to the extreme of the ideals? Five or 10 years from now, especially in Australia and similar countries, what do you think things should look like for families and communities?

Dr Angela Genoni (51:34)

I think we need to see more families working together to prepare meals, to share the load around a bit. You know, being a single parent for the last five years, and I'm sure many of your listeners feel the pain of having to cook dinner every night. Like it is hard work, especially when you're working and you've got children and so on. If we as... You know, develop little micro communities within our communities where we take turns at cooking so that we can share the load around a bit, things become a bit more communal. I think that's where some of these solutions lie, and they're kind of easy things to implement, actually, because it's just connecting people with one another.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (52:25)

So cook for your friends.

Dr Angela Genoni (52:27)

Yeah, or just like in your local area, you know, come up with a group of people that you can connect and that have similar food values to yourself, you know, no point connecting with people with different dietary patterns, but connecting with other people who have similar sort of dietary preferences to your family. And that might mean you also get together a few times a week and eat together, like it could be a way of ticking off a lot of boxes all at once in terms of.

getting people connected in the local communities, but also sharing resources. And that would also reduce food waste and many other things, along with the whole food system approach. Those types of small ideas can become big movements if we get enough people interested.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (53:18)

Maybe we need more picnics, especially getting to spring and summer.

Dr Angela Genoni (53:21)

Yeah,

Yes, I think we could, that picnic is a great idea. We just need no magpies, don't we?

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (53:28)

Right, right. Hope

for the best with that one. You might have more make eyes over there. I'm not sure. I used to live further up north in Queensland, and there were regular, frequent vegan picnics, and I would love to see maybe all of the young families gathering for a picnic, or all of the people from I don't know the

Dr Angela Genoni (53:33)

Yep.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (53:56)

The other communities, like the dance groups or whatever people are into, they can all do a picnic day on the weekend too.

Dr Angela Genoni (54:03)

Yes, those are simple things. Simple ideas which might help just bring people together, share food, reduce the load on people having to cook dinner every single night or cook, you know, it's, it's anything that can help ease our load as running a household in this day and age, I think would be quite welcomed.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (54:28)

You seem to be easing the time cost of food preparation in that idea and also the, the cost of living by sharing food and also bringing people together. So that's, that's probably needed more than ever right now.

Dr Angela Genoni (54:43)

Mm.

Exactly, yeah, then there's lots, but there's, I'm sure, you know, many of your listeners would also have, you know, other ideas where they could brainstorm with sharing resources together. Food is expensive, and wasting food is expensive. So, you know, and it's time, it's amount of time that takes to prepare healthy food sometimes can be a barrier. Not that it has to be a fancy recipe, you know, baked beans on toast is a

perfectly acceptable meal if that's what you've got time for. Perfect. Perfect legumes are very underrated for gut health. So yes, we all need more legumes and I love the old baked beans. I think they're very cheap and ⁓ fantastic gut food.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (55:19)

Angela, can you believe I ate that right before talking?

They really are. It's a hack, honestly. It's

so true. People think that it has to be fancy. And look, I'll have my moment of wanting to soak dry beans or that, but sometimes we have to be real. And I'm really looking up to you because you did reveal that you're a single mother, and you mentioned how teenagers, teenage boys in particular, eat so much. And I think that even at all sorts of ages, families have different issues. But there are so many people who are

Dr Angela Genoni (55:45)

No.

Mm.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (56:07)

single and looking after themselves or families these days. think that there was so many that just has happened so much. So I think that people can really learn that if you're able to do this in the career you're having and with the family life that you have, if you can do it, then anyone can.

Dr Angela Genoni (56:25)

Absolutely, and I did my PhD when my kids were quite small and they're big now and I've started my business and I've managed to keep working and write a book and I've done all the things, but I have prioritised having fairly healthy meals and it can be done, it just takes a little bit of ⁓ planning.

And I'm quite organised, and you can do it, it can be done, and if I can do it, then yes, many other people can do it too. ⁓

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (56:57)

You're becoming a role model, and you're reminding everybody, whether they are leading an organization or leading their families as parents, to be role models, but also just look after themselves as well. Sounds like that's some of the key.

Dr Angela Genoni (57:10)

Yes, yes, we can't show up as who we want to be unless we are the best versions of ourselves. And yeah, looking at our bodies is actually amazing if we stop and take a look at the inside. So let's celebrate that and nurture it.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (57:27)

Dr. Angela Giannone, that line there sums up the amazing work you are doing, telling people to be the best versions of themselves. Thank you.

Dr Angela Genoni (57:36)

Thank you for having me.

Summary

In this conversation, KJ Blattenbauer, a seasoned publicist and author, shares insights on the importance of visibility in public relations and personal branding. She emphasises that visibility is not about vanity but a strategic approach to building credibility and opportunities. KJ discusses practical takeaways for entrepreneurs, including the importance of having a clear market positioning, the power of purpose in branding, and the necessity of engaging with audiences on social media. She also addresses the challenges of managing public perception, handling criticism, and setting boundaries in personal and professional life. The conversation concludes with actionable advice for creating meaningful offerings and navigating the complexities of public relations.

Keywords

public relations, visibility, personal branding, entrepreneurship, crisis management, social media, marketing strategies, PR tips, audience engagement, self-care

Takeaways

Visibility is about credibility, confidence, and opportunities.

PR is not just for celebrities; everyone has a story to tell.

Stop being consistently boring; make your content meaningful.

Authority beats virality; focus on building credibility.

Your elevator pitch should clearly convey who you are and what you do.

Presence, positioning, and press are key to visibility.

Identify three things you want to be known for.

Engagement on social media is crucial for visibility.

Don't rely solely on social media; build an email list.

You can take breaks without losing your audience.

Titles

Unlocking Your Visibility Potential

The Art of Personal Branding

Sound bites

"Your purpose drives everything you do."

"All press is not good press."

"You can take all the pauses you want."

Chapters

00:00 Introduction to KJ Blattenbauer and His Work

02:44 The Importance of Visibility and Personal Branding

05:44 Three Tangible Takeaways for Building Authority

08:49 Finding Focus in a Multi-Passionate World

11:45 Maintaining Presence While Taking Breaks

14:44 Simplifying Systems for Beginners

18:00 Engagement Over Automation in Social Media

20:53 The Value of Control: Websites and Email Lists

23:44 Meeting Your Audience Where They Are

26:51 Visibility as a Strategy, Not Vanity

29:48 Recognising Your Value and Sharing Your Story

30:39 Embracing Abundance and Collaboration

33:57 The Art of Unique Branding

36:01 Preparing for Publicity: The Importance of Offers

41:13 Navigating Crisis and Public Perception

49:13 Setting Boundaries in Public Life

55:58 Researching and Refining Your Offer

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (00:05)

Hi, hello. Tell everybody who you are and what you do.

KJ Blattenbauer (00:07)

Hello.

My name is KJ Blatenbauer. I'm a publicist and an author, and I've spent nearly three decades helping entrepreneurs and brands go from being overlooked to becoming recognized authorities. ⁓ Being in public relations for nearly 28 years, I've seen firsthand that visibility, it's not about ego. It's about credibility, confidence, and opportunities. And I'm all about helping people step into the spotlight so they can grow both themselves and their business.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (00:39)

amazing. This is needed more than ever before because the personal brand is necessary in today's economy for pretty much everybody in different forms. But it sounds like you've worked with people who are doing great things who really needed extra attention to spread the word about extraordinary projects. Do you have some stories you can share?

KJ Blattenbauer (01:05)

Sure, don't even think, look, everyone I get to encounter and every one of my clients, they are all extraordinary. But I really believe that anyone from your local plumber down the street to someone who owns a bakery to a famous celebrity you see on TV, I think everyone is at the same level and we all have amazing stories, right? Like one of the biggest myths out there is that PR and visibility is about chasing fame or going viral or it's only for people you see from Hollywood or big names, that sort of thing. And it's not.

PR is about amplifying what you're passionate about and sharing your gifts and your story with the world. So I'm over here in the States and I have clients that, you for us in the United States, you think of big time people coming out of New York City or you think of them coming out of Los Angeles and then everything else is just flyover States. It's just where planes go back and forth. There's nothing there, but I have interior designers in the Midwest ⁓ in the middle of the United States that are producing amazing kitchens.

beautiful living rooms. They are some of the top interior designers in the world and most people couldn't even find where they're from on the map. And it's just taking what their story is, what their gift is, and it's finding the right way to package it. And I think that's what all your listeners should be doing. I think it's what every entrepreneur should be doing personally.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (02:22)

Completely agree. And this is so exciting to be able to teach people about this because for it to explain my background, I did have some experience in having to bring attention to what I was doing. But then in my personal life, I was trying to look for services sometimes where the best people you can barely find them. And sometimes it's just knowing someone who knows someone because

You can't even Google them like what you said and, or maybe the details are out of date, things like that. So I'm wondering to get started. What's the first thing someone should do if they are creating anything at all that they want to provide.

KJ Blattenbauer (03:10)

I think they need to take into account three tangible takeaways first, right? And the first lesson I think they need to teach themselves is to stop being consistently boring. I think a lot of people are told to just be consistent and they're like showing up every day doing the same thing, whether it's blogging, whether it's their podcast, whether they're on social media, and they just, know they have to post something every day, but it's nothing meaningful. It's making them very forgettable.

If you're gonna be showing up consistently, whatever that looks like for you, Monday through Friday, three times a week, once a week, monthly, however it is, make sure that when you do show up, you're saying something that sticks with your audience, it sparks interest or conversation with them, and it spreads. It's something that they can talk about their friends, their peers, their colleagues. They can talk about you in rooms that you're not in. I think that's the first thing. I think the second thing is to remember that authority beats virality.

Like going viral feels fun. It sounds great on social media, but it's basically the equivalent of like a sugar high authority is what's going to pay your bills. So a feature in your, in the right publication, you know, a customer referral on the white right referral or community website, ⁓ a podcast interview, a panel of appearance, all of that's going to do more for your credibility and your business and your bottom line than a million tick tock views ever will. I mean, the true story is if I went viral tomorrow on Instagram,

I might gain a couple hundred followers, but are those followers gonna buy stuff or they just checking out what the hot thing is the second and then they're gonna bounce? I think the third thing people should take into account is their elevator pitch. ⁓ It matters more than you think, right? When you asked me what my introduction was, if I was just like, I do public relations, people would be like, ⁓ okay, like they lose interest fast, right? So if you can't clearly say who you are, what you do and why it matters in 30 seconds,

No one else is going to be able to either. And also no one else is going to care. So you need to dial in your elevator pitch because clarity is going to be currency for you. And a way that I would recommend people do that is through like the, call them the three P's of visibility. So the first P is presence, right? How you're showing up consistently in front of the right people. Once you know who your target audience is, once you know where they're showing up, make sure you're showing up there and you're consistently in front of them.

showing your expertise, showing your value, showing how your product or service can change their life. The second P is going to be positioning. And that's the narrative you're shaping about yourself, about your expertise, about what you offer. Make sure that across every single platform you use, website, social, when you're in interviews, when you're talking to people at networking events, make sure you're always saying the same thing so they don't find you one place and think, oh, you know, like he's a, he's a

a taxidermist and then over here they're like, no, he's a life coach. And you're like, are they the same guy? Like you want it to be consistent across all platforms. And then the third P is going to be press. Credibility markers are press hits and it doesn't matter if it's digital, if it's in print, if it's broadcast, if it's going to be a podcast, press is a credibility marker that proves you're the real deal. Like if I tell you I'm amazing, you'd be like, okay, well.

That's good to know. Tell me more about why you're amazing. But if you see my name in Forbes, Entrepreneur Inc. on this podcast and other podcasts, you're going to be like, wow, she really is amazing. Like she's credible. So if you focus on the three P's, presence, positioning and press, you're going to always move the needle on visibility, credibility and authority for yourself.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (06:38)

There's so much for everybody to learn there. Firstly, I wanted to start off with the positioning because you need to know who you are before you can then tell everybody. So that's a great place to start. A lot of people, whether they are entrepreneurs or people who maybe have a job and decide hustle into something else, they will lovingly or happily call themselves multi-passionate. And

Legitimately, some people are good at a few things, but we still need a focus. I'm wondering how do you guide people who need to provide a point of focus for the audiences when they are interested in a few different things?

KJ Blattenbauer (07:22)

Well, I think it's figuring out how the, if those few different things tie together or if they're separate because right. Everyone has, if you go through a basic marketing class, they're going to tell you, you have content pillars. Here's the four buckets or here's the three buckets. Here's the things that you should talk about. And I think it's figuring out how those buckets or there's those areas of interest all tie together and then working that in into your brand. Right? Like we're all not.

one dimensional. We're all multi dimensional creatures. We all have multi hyphenate, you know, like I'm not just a publicist. I'm an author, right? I have my own business. I guess that makes me an entrepreneur. You know, like you're not just a podcaster. You're a speaker. You hold amazing workshops. So it's just figuring out the right mix of how to put those things together. And sometimes it's great to have another person that's not emotionally invested in your business, like a professional like me to help.

guide you and steer you because it takes the emotion out of it and it shows you what an outsider or how an outsider is going to view what you do.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (08:23)

That is crucial for sure. Sometimes people need to know what other people think about them because maybe the way we see ourselves isn't how everybody else sees us.

KJ Blattenbauer (08:35)

Right. I also think, you know, a good mini exercise to do if you ever feel like you've jumped your skis or you've gone too far ahead of yourself or your messaging is all over the place. think ⁓ write down three things you want to be known for. Not your entire resume, not every single thing that you do, not all the hats you wear, like the three things. If you could only be known for three things, what are the three things you want to be known for?

And then I think you take those three things and they become the backbone of your visibility strategy, right? So anytime you post, anytime you pitch yourself to be on a show, a podcast, be a speaker, anytime you share your story with others, it should tie back to at least one of those three things. And I think that's how you build a clear, memorable, authoritative brand.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (09:20)

Three things can be so focused and there's a magic in the three because that's so similar to how I learned how to present a speech because people can't remember a long list. So part of what you're telling people is don't try to be known for 20 or 30 things.

KJ Blattenbauer (09:37)

Yep. Right, right, right. I all most of my things if you haven't noticed already, I do things in threes. I think the third time's a charm. think threes just a long enough to remember and really being known for three things. That's a lot to be known for, you know.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (09:54)

It is, it is. And it's freeing enough because then we're not just one thing. And I'm wondering if you've seen people tying in there a few different occupations into one purpose, because within your writing and within your consulting and whatever you do, you are helping people to gain their attention. So does the purpose sometimes.

KJ Blattenbauer (10:19)

Mm-hmm.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (10:23)

tie all of the different interests together.

KJ Blattenbauer (10:26)

⁓ think 100 % the purpose ties all the things together. You know, we talked about one of my clients is an amazing interior designer. She designs the most beautiful kitchens, but they're not only beautiful, they're functional. She walks every kitchen and she urges all her clients to walk out a recipe before they decide what the layout of the kitchen is going to be because it has to be functional and useful, not just pretty. But she's good at doing that because she loves to cook.

She loves to bake, she loves to do recipes. And so that teaches her how to teach her clients how to do things. I have an awesome author and speaker on my roster. She is just amazing at marketing and technology and all things STEM. She is a, when little girls dream to be a scientist, that is my client. And her passion is that she wants to see more people like her. She wants to see more women in her field. And she's done.

everything she can, being a speaker, being an author, starting a nonprofit to help funnel people into that. So yeah, I think 100 % your purpose is going to drive everything.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (11:27)

purpose, find the purpose. Absolutely. You talked about consistently, consistently doing things that people actually talk about. And we mentioned before we started recording that people go on holidays for significant chunks of time and as much as self care is important and as much as a break can revive people.

What would you say to people who are perhaps wanting a few breaks in the year, but they need to maintain their presence online or in the public space between all that?

KJ Blattenbauer (12:10)

Well, I think the great thing about technology today is that you can schedule things and people won't even know if you're on vacation. I think vacations are important. I love a good rest. I love a good beach holiday. Like I'm never going to tell someone not to take time off. But I think, I think it's being proactive. If you're working in your business, if you're promoting your business, look, if you, if you, tell you a quick story. A client came to me and she said she felt like the best kept secret in her industry. She's doing amazing work. No one knew her name.

So together we worked on her story. Like, here's what's inside of you that you think is just everyday mundane, that I as a publicist think is amazing and newsworthy. We'll pitch you to a couple of publications. We'll see where things go. We'll take it from there. Within two weeks, she had a feature in a national publication. And after that, she started to get tagged. She started to get quoted. She started to get booked on podcasts and then more interviews and then TV. And suddenly after a few weeks of working with me, and then ⁓ that national publication came out.

her client list doubled and her client list didn't only double, but she kept getting more press. It started to snowball. And then after her client list doubled after two months, by the third month of working together, she had gotten all this press. She had a 12 month waiting list for clients. You know, she could take all the vacations she wants. She's got that pipeline already built up. She didn't suddenly become more talented. She became more visible and that changed everything for her. So yeah, if you want to take as many holidays as you want to, if you want to take three months at a time off,

Schedule, have your content pillars created, know what you want to talk about, schedule it so it doesn't stress you out. don't plan ahead, whether you're going to have sales, launches, speaking opportunities, workshops, have that all planned ahead, and then pitch and promote all of your stuff. then once the media is out there, the internet's forever, right? Once those stories are out there, people can always Google, they can always find you. Drive them to your website, drive them to your email list, drive them to your freebies or your lead magnets.

No one knows if you're sitting here or if you're, you know, off in Paris, there, your systems will work for you. If you've promoted yourself, if you're out there enough, if you're, you know, hiding away in your house, no one's going to be able to find you. But if you're out there being visible, sharing your gifts with the world, it's going to do the work for you.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (14:29)

Absolutely scheduling content has really been a miracle these days. It really has and it does give people freedom. So I'll ask you for the people who are really getting started from scratch because I love to schedule things and that's something that I have looked into but for those who haven't even started doing that, what are some simple things because the systems look

People might think the systems are expensive or complicated and are wondering what's this simplified way where someone can get started with some basic systems.

KJ Blattenbauer (15:07)

Well, think you use the free tools, right? So I know that I'm not gonna show up every single day on social media. It's just not, it's not good for my mental health. I don't need to show up every day on social media. It's not part of my system. So for the three days I do show up on social media, I just have my post written. I throw it in the calendar invite. At 8 a.m., the calendar invite will show up and it's like, time to post. It didn't cost me anything to create that post. It didn't cost me anything to put it in my calendar. And that's a free way to schedule things out. So I never.

have to worry, you I don't have to pay for some expensive software to post it for me. Truthfully, I think sometimes the platforms like Instagram hurt you if you're using a scheduler tool like the fancy ones, right? That post everything for you. You know, not a social media expert, but these are the rumors I've heard. So I just go in and manually post it myself, but it's simple. You can use a calendar as long as you. If you plan ahead. You shouldn't have any problems showing up is my personal take.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (16:05)

plan ahead, it's that simple. So reminding yourself to do things. So you heard that the platforms will not give people as much reach if they are scheduling things a lot.

KJ Blattenbauer (16:19)

Well, mean, social media changes every day, right? So like today, Instagram is this size and tomorrow the posts on Instagram will be that size. And this today, TikTok's going away and tomorrow TikTok will be here forever, right? Those things, they all change. When I started, there wasn't even the internet when I started my career. And then we had MySpace and then it was Facebook. And now look at all the things that we have, you know, will Twitter stay Twitter? Will it become X? it go back? Does anyone care? I think

Those things all change. So the systems change and I think the rules change as they all try and keep people on their platform longer. So I would assume if you have a social media platform and you want people to stay on there, you don't want them to be using automatic schedule or tools because that means they're not even on your platform. The schedulers on the platform. So it kind of defeats your purpose of engagement and community and having people on your site.

You know, I think I sat through a meta talk like three years ago and they're like, ⁓ we don't share as many posts that are automatically scheduled. And who knows if things have changed since then, but I would assume since there are so many competitors for Instagram right now that yeah, I would assume that they still are faulting you if you're using an automatic scheduler.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (17:28)

Okay, that is insight for sure because I was absolutely trying to depend on the scheduling because it looked like a way to make life easier. But what you're saying is take a moment in the day of the week to put something out there in the moment.

KJ Blattenbauer (17:45)

Right. And I also think that a good thing about being out there, if you just are going to post, if you're just going to post something and then run away, you're not going to engage with people, whether it's on your post or you're not going to go seek out your ideal customers or people in your target audience or experts that you might want to have in your community. If you're not going to go interact with them or their poster is going to post your stuff and go away, it might not even be worth posting because I know that when I post something,

I go out and I engage with, I go out and I see what are my friends doing? What are my peers doing? What are, you know, leaders I aspire to have in my community doing? And I try and drop a few comments here or there. Then I'll do my post. Then I'll go look at some more things. In total, I maybe spend 10, 15 minutes a morning on like my social media platforms. But that engagement, you know, it leads to podcasts like this. Being guest on podcasts like this, leads to knowing kind of.

what other people in the world are doing. It gives me ideas for my content to promote because I see pain points of my target audience or their peers, ⁓ what they're going through. And so I think that engagement helps spike what I'm posting and promoting more versus if I just went out there, threw my post out there, didn't engage with anyone and then went about my day. Again, I think the social media platforms want to keep you on there.

because just like I'd want to keep someone on my website longer. So then they'll purchase something Instagram, Facebook threads X they're all, they're all the same. want to keep you on like Tik TOK wants to keep you on there and keep you on there and keep you on there as long as possible because that's how people get their numbers up. That's how they get their ad revenue. They want to trap your eyeballs. So if you're not on there and engaging, I don't think they're going to, they're going to forget about you.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (19:37)

Absolutely. He needs to actually engage with people. So it's, it's a two way conversation a lot more than how media was done decades ago. It's a lot more interaction directly with people. And I wanted to really check on something I've been wondering for a while. I see some people getting very dependent on a particular platform. And that came to me because you talked about how the platforms have changed.

and they will keep changing. And I see some people, get a little bit concerned, lovingly concerned that some people are identifying as I am on this platform. am just, I'm mainly on LinkedIn. You can find me on Facebook and it becomes a little bit dependent. And I'm prone to this as well to some extent because I connected with so many people on Facebook, but I'm branching out now, but I'm wondering,

What can you say to people who are very much depending on and identifying with specific platforms instead of creating their own?

KJ Blattenbauer (20:44)

Well, I'm all for what I can control. And so what I can control is my website and what I can control is my email list. And while it feels like I could control my Facebook account or my Instagram account or TikTok, and yes, I can control what I post there. If one of those went away tomorrow, all of my followers, all of my content, any discussions I was having on that platform that could lead to business, it's all gone.

But anything that I'm, any conversation I'm having on my emails, in my personal website community, in my personal inbox, those are all something that I own and I can control. That doesn't go away unless I decide to shut down my email list. And so I do believe that, look, social media is a great tactic among many other tactics to further promote yourself. I don't think social media is the be all or end all for promoting yourself. I think it's.

one thing in addition to other things. ⁓ But I think having a website is valuable. And I think having a way to get leads is valuable on your website. And I think having an email list is crucial. And if you don't have an email list, you need to start building one because, know, what do you what happens when like Instagram goes down for an hour and everyone flips out? So what if Instagram goes down for days? Or what if Instagram goes away? What if TikTok really does go away? How are you going to

promote your products, how are you gonna promote your services to people? An email list can keep going and going and going.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (22:13)

Definitely.

It really can and email when you have that contact list, then you can send emails to those people, regardless of what tools you have. It's accessible. It's affordable. And even the websites, some people will say, I can't afford a website. There are affordable ways to get one. I'm sure, I'm sure you would agree. People can just start with anything, anything that they can control.

KJ Blattenbauer (22:42)

Right.

Anything at all. You know, I think now if you Google it, I'm not even sure what they call, but you can get just a one page like Lincoln bio and put it together. I think you can link off of like you could literally probably build something off of Canva and link it worth, link it from your Facebook page, link it from your ⁓ Instagram, link it to your Tik TOK and it can have everything you need. You don't need to have a big flashy website. You don't need to spend $60,000 to have someone build you a platform.

You don't even have to spend the $12 a month it is for like a Shopify hosting. You don't have to have all of those fancy things. There's a million different ways to work around. You could have just one contact page or just one of those digital business cards that pulls up and people can reach you that way. It's really deciding how you want to show up in the world, but also what's the best way for your ideal client to reach you. however they...

interact with people, however they reach out to people, however they conduct their businesses and services, that's where you want to show up. Otherwise, you know, it's like a love language. My love language might be gifts, but if my husband's is acts of service, you know, he's going to be like, why do you keep giving me gifts? And I'm going to be like, why do you keep mowing in the lawn? Like I want chocolates. So you just have to meet your people where they are.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (24:01)

Meet your people where they are. Absolutely. And that could mean that some locals will want a business card and then others want to find you online. Meet them where they are. It's not about when we're providing something for other people, it's not about what we prefer, it's what other people prefer. Totally. I want to branch out beyond the platforms and to the tools for a second, because people do focus so much on the tools and those things are so important now, but

KJ Blattenbauer (24:19)

Yep.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (24:30)

You're talking about credibility and attention and, and you emphasized that it's not about ego. It's about spreading the word and positioning yourself. That is so relatable for Australians and yes, people in other countries. The, the label, the phrase that we have over here on the other side of the world is the tall poppy syndrome. I don't know if you ever heard of that. Yes. Okay.

KJ Blattenbauer (24:58)

Yes,

which is brilliant, by the way. Brilliant. Brilliantly named. You know, I mean, I think it I think it's the same no matter where you are. Visibility isn't about vanity. It is a strategy. If you are excited about what you do, if you're good at what you do, if you're passionate about what you do, share that with people.

Share it with people just like you would share it with your best friend. Talk to them about what you're passionate about. You know, like you talk to people about rugby, you talk to people about traveling. Why wouldn't you talk to them about what you're the most passionate about? if your business is your baby, why wouldn't you, you know, you talk to them about your kid kids, why wouldn't you talk to them about your business baby? The thing that I see among my friends all the time is if I'm at a party and you, I know you, but you haven't met one of my friends and...

you ask my best friend, hey, you know, like, what do do for a living? And she's like, ⁓ I bake. I would step in immediately. And I would be like, she doesn't bake. She is the best baker ever. You should see these cakes. I'd be pulling out my phone to show you her cakes. Like I would be hyping her up because she is extremely talented at baking. I would be hyping her up. Like she was on one of the cooking shows, you know, and I would be telling you all the great things about my friend till you're

eyes probably roll back in your head, you'd be like, all right, KJ, I get it. Like, she's fantastic. We need to do that for ourselves. We need to talk about ourselves the same way we would talk about our best friend. And I think that's choosing yourself. I think it's shaping your story. And I don't think that there's anything vain or wrong or egotistical about that. Visibility isn't vanity. It is a strategy. And the only way that other people are going to have a problem with that

Which by the way, we shouldn't worry about what other people think about us. It's none of our business. But the only reason other people have problems about it when someone becomes too tall of a poppy is because you're reminding them that they're not growing. And people don't like to feel uncomfortable and they don't like it pointed out that they're not growing. When someone else is chasing their dreams, it tends to create space from the people who aren't chasing their dreams. But that's a them problem. That's not a you problem. Keep chasing your dreams. They'll catch up or they won't, but that's on them.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (27:13)

It really is. I also wonder when someone is focusing so much on what we are doing and worrying about it, why aren't they directing that worry towards what they are doing to boost themselves instead?

KJ Blattenbauer (27:28)

Right.

Right. We have, we're a sports household at my house. And so we have a theory where, you know, the people who are commenting, the peanut gallery, the people who are commenting from the stands, from the seats, the ones that are always talking, talking, talking, talking, talking, they aren't in the arena competing. They had to buy tickets to be there. And they bought tickets to watch what we're doing enough to talk about what we're doing. They're wasting so much time. Like you said, they could be go doing something themselves.

but they're just focused on what we're doing, which means we're doing something spectacular because not only are they talking about us, they pay to be there. They can't look away. So keep on shining is what I would say to my friends.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (28:08)

Keep on shining. And to go back to your story about how you would talk about a friend, that is crucial. And I think that people need to really zoom in on that for a second, because I can relate that to my own experience this year. I was simplifying it too much. was mainly in community, and it's great to be branching beyond that. But I tell people, I do speeches. I've done speeches for a while. And I think...

There's a simplified version in that people do all sorts of things. The I bake is classic or people say I write, but when you own the value of it, it was actually someone else locally who said to me, you need to really emphasize more than that. was someone locally who said, you've been doing this for a decade and a half. And.

I kind of just took that for granted. I'm just me. And I think that we do because we see our own humanity and our own flaws. That's what we focus on. But it sounds like you are helping people to actually focus their own minds and other people's attention onto the value. And I'm wondering what other things can people look for within what they do?

to understand the higher value of things that they're already doing.

KJ Blattenbauer (29:41)

You know, well, I think it goes back to something we talked about already. Write down the three things you want to be known for. Like literally put them across the top in columns of a sheet and then write down everything you're proud of that you've done that fits into each one of those buckets. I'm sure you're going to have an amazing long list. Like nothing's too big or small for that list and just fill it all out there. All of those different things are stories. All of those different things are ways you can promote yourself, put yourself out there. What might seem minuscule to you is

huge to someone else. What might be a struggle that you've made it through might help someone else make it through the struggle. I literally have the best job in the world.

Am I saving lives? No, I'm not a surgeon. I'm not scrubbing in. I'm not curing cancer, but I get to take people's hopes and dreams, the things they've worked so hard for, and I get to share those with other people and I get to help them live those hopes and dreams further. I get to help them monetize those hopes and dreams. let, you know, there is no better feeling in the world than when one of my clients gets their first press hit or their 50th press hit or sees their name somewhere or published or gets announced to be on a stage or wins an award. It is the

best feeling in the world, to just see them light up because someone has recognized the struggle and all the time and energy they've put in. And it's the greatest thing. Greatest thing.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (30:57)

You love seeing other people get attention.

KJ Blattenbauer (31:01)

Yeah, yeah, who doesn't want to see their friends succeed? know, a rising tide lifts all boats. Why wouldn't I want to, if I know how to promote things, why wouldn't I want to bring the next person along with me and show them how to promote things? The universe is not on a budget. It has enough abundance for all of us.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (31:19)

that's something to keep in mind. There will be some out there who are thinking this person has attention. How could there be space for me or this person has done this category already. So do you see people ever worrying about that? And what can you say when someone is worrying? Someone else has already done a version of this. I hope that everybody can

personalize what they do and their version of anything.

KJ Blattenbauer (31:51)

Right, right, well, I mean, when you think about it, so...

Like there's all the, there's the whole blue ocean strategy book, right? Like you find, you know, the ocean's a very vast place. There's room for all boats. You just have to find the place to put your boat and that's where your people are going to be in fish and whatever. It's been a while since I read the book, but at the same time, there's always people are like, there's so many coaches in this field. There's so many people who do this kind of pottery. There's so many artists that do art kind of similar to mine, or there's so many writers writing books. And then they like talk themselves out of doing something. But then you look at,

Take social media. There's hundreds of thousands, if not millions of accounts on social media, and that isn't stopping anyone from posting on Instagram. So I just don't think there's a million different ways to make spaghetti. It's still spaghetti. There's a million different ways to bake a cake. It's how the person, you provide the secret sauce, how you're gonna coach, how you're gonna speak.

how you're gonna bring people together is different than how the next person's gonna coach, how they're gonna speak, what they're gonna teach people, their life experiences. And I think we all have a unique perspective that we bring to whatever it is we do. I might handle publicity a different way than another public relations professional. I have a different way of looking at things. Public relations has been around for hundreds of years. It's nothing new. same principles are all the same.

But some people are better at it than others. And I really just think it's who you are as a person that sets you apart that I don't think there are any markets that are too crowded. Because if there were, they wouldn't exist. Look at all the different kinds of cars. Do we really need another type of truck? Probably not. They're probably going to roll out four new models any day now.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (33:38)

Yes, they will. There's always a new version of anything. And I'll go back to how you said people need to get the right sort of attention and do something that people will talk about. I'll go back to that again, because if someone is doing their own version of something, then there's an opportunity in that to

do something weird and I want to get your opinion on the really weird PR. We've all heard about the stunts that Richard Branson did many years ago, that sort of thing. Do you think that most people should be getting weird or what, where do we draw the line in all that?

KJ Blattenbauer (34:23)

I think we all have our schtick, right? I think back in the day, it was a little refreshing to see him act like a silly goose, but I don't know if in today's age and time, those things would fly. For me, when it gets around April Fool's Day, I'm always like, this is going to be cringe for so many brands and a few are going to shine, right? But if it's not executed well, I'll be the first publicist to say it. All press is not good press.

Does all press get your name out there? Yes, but there's bad press you can't recover from. And do you really want to make your like Cracker Barrel? They changed their logo. Not for the better. Do you really want to have that kind of strain on your employees to try and fix that mess after you spent that much money on something as silly as a logo? And now when you think about it, like some sort of stunt. ⁓ no, I just I think whatever you're comfortable with, whatever your stick is, I think you should stick with that.

because we all have themes and things that we believe in. But I also think it's what's next after you do this PR stunt, what's next? What's it really gonna do for you? Because if it's a stunt just to bring eyeballs to you and then you have nothing else to offer or it's completely different than what you're offering people after the fact, like it's one thing to be a comedian and do something just outrageous. And then like, I have a comedy special coming out or this is just my comedy act, blah, blah, blah. It's another thing if you go do something completely outrageous and then are like,

Hey, come to my workshop. You know, it's just, it just might not ring true.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (35:54)

You're saying have the right offer after you get attention as well. That's so crucial. I'm still navigating that a little bit. And I hope I'm wondering if you guide most people or everybody to have something that locals can look at. then even if someone is just locally creating things, have something that people online can experience or I'm wondering.

how do you guide people who are maybe bit blurry on their offer, even if they got to the hang of getting attention?

KJ Blattenbauer (36:30)

Well, I would say before you even want the attention, you should have an offer. Because if you get attention, like for instance, back in the day, Oprah used to have her favorite things list. And if you made that favorite things list, you were guaranteed to sell 15,000 to 30,000 products or whatever the service was, whatever the book was. The second that thing got published, if you couldn't provide that you had the website that could handle the traffic, you had the product or a way to make the product where people weren't going to have to wait more than two weeks to get theirs.

you wouldn't make that list. They would not let you be on that list. And you had to sign legal documents saying, hey, yep, we can fulfill this because otherwise it's a nightmare if you can't. I would say that there are some people who are not ready for PR. If you don't know what you want your product or service to be, or if you're still kind of figuring it out, I would wait till you are crystal clear on at least one product or service before you do outreach. I would also make sure that there is a clear way for people to contact you.

whether it's a website, whether it's your email, whether it's on a social platform, I would make sure that, you know, clear product or service offering, a way for people to reach you, and a way for you to collect payment, right? Like, businesses don't run on hopes and dreams. Like, we all have bills to pay, you know? Like, I wish that my optimism would keep the lights on, but unfortunately, I have to pay the electric company. So I think having your operations down,

You know, done is better than perfect. But I think having at least one clear offering a way to people to know about it or purchase it and a way to collect funds for it, then you're ready for PR. But until then, you know, you're not ready.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (38:11)

One clear offer that's a focused way to get started for sure. And then once people have that offer, then they can get all of the extra attention. And the Oprah example is a great one because that was huge. it would be interesting to see whether attention is a lot more scattered now or just ultra segmented because

Oprah's doing something now, but we don't have those shows ⁓ getting the eyeballs as much as years ago.

KJ Blattenbauer (38:49)

Right.

But now we have the TikTok trends. Like there were the scary dolls earlier this summer, the Labooboos. They were just, you know, they looked like those tormented bunnies or whatever they were. But, know, they would pop in your TikTok and then they were everywhere. And you're like, who, what? You're spending that much money on a scary doll that you're going to hook on your purse. Okay. I mean, but when things take off, they take off. Now, if you were the Labooboos people and you weren't prepared and you didn't have enough of those little gremlin creatures, then you're kind of in trouble.

Right? Or like, you hear it all the time. They're a clothing company here that was part of by the Kardashians. It's called good American. They had for the first time, plus size denim and jeans for plus sizes that was unheard of when they first launched, which seems silly and like this day and age. But when they launched their campaign, they're like, yeah, we have a couple thousand in each skew. They sold out in hours.

and they weren't prepared to sell out in hours. And they didn't have the leech, know, in fashion, you have to have things lined up. You can't just turn something really fast. It takes months. They didn't have any of that. So it almost, the day they launched was almost their last day in business because they weren't prepared for the backend of what they all needed. So it's just having your system in place. It's just having a plan. So if you have your one offer, if you have your one product, if you have a way for people to reach it, ⁓

Then you're ready for publication think about like artists if you are hand sketching beautiful things and you you put an offer out there where you're gonna hand sketch someone's know, you're gonna do a beautiful charcoal drawing of someone's home and then Martha Stewart's like ⁓ I got this beautiful charcoal drawing of my home and then they link to your Etsy site and you wake up the next morning and you have to hand

create 50,000 charcoal drawings of people's home, but on your Etsy site it says, we'll be ready in five to seven business days, like your hand is gonna fall off. So you just have to make sure that when you are promoting yourself for attention, that you've thought through the process of how you're gonna get things to people, that you've thought through anything that could become a customer service issue.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (40:56)

If you get the great quantities that are the ideal and the dream, then how would you make it happen? Definitely. I was so surprised to hear that story about the good American because you would think that those people would know what's required and it sounds like it can happen to anyone.

KJ Blattenbauer (41:17)

It can really happen to anyone. can happen to anyone because you never know. Like I think I have the best ideas all the time and I put them out there and they flop. And sometimes I'm like, we'll just see, you know, like this is something I can throw together easy and it takes off. So you really never know unless you're completely dialed in with your target customer, what they want. And it's knowing those things and then making sure that if you sell out, you can easily get those things back.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (41:47)

Absolutely, absolutely. I have been wanting to ask about the worst case scenarios so that people can feel empowered and prepared. Because I love talking about all the positive things, but it's worth asking. For example, we mentioned in passing that when someone is growing tall poppy style that people might react to that a bit. But as a publicist,

KJ Blattenbauer (41:58)

Mm-hmm.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (42:16)

It's great to share wisdom with everybody about firstly, what if people are really reacting to someone and also what would you say about outright classic crisis control?

KJ Blattenbauer (42:32)

Well, think deep breath, right? What feels like the end of world, the end of the world to us is probably going to be limited to a very slow, a small news cycle, right? Like, unless it's a huge, huge crisis, it's not going to last days and days and days. It's going to be a very big point in time. I also think you have to step outside yourself. So is there an internet troll and are they bothering you? Well, the first rule is you don't feed the troll, just ignore people.

You know, people that want to, people that seek you out on social media, comment negative things, want to get your goat, want to make you feel bad, think they've really done something from their mom's basement, typing behind a computer. ⁓ Just ignore those people. They just want attention. And if you don't, if you don't give those weeds attention, they do not grow. ⁓ If it gets really bad, you know, I wouldn't say limit comments because then you are limiting the comments from people who want to engage with you, want to hear your stuff, but you can delete their comments.

If it's a bad review, I think it's taking an honest look like, this bad review on my restaurant worth it? Is this bad review on my product? Is it true? Like take yourself and the emotion out of it and be like, okay, is this the experience people are having in my restaurant? Is this the experience people are having with my product? And then it's a personal outreach. You know, there's a reason why on Yelp and other review sites, you can respond as the business to try and.

soothes the situation to try and get more information. Sometimes the person just wants to be heard. And then if you're responding, you're hearing them. I also think that if it's something huge, like if you're the Coldplay guy and you're at the Coldplay concert and you get busted with someone else's wife, that is not a good day. That is a PR crisis. But I also think that there's, mean, well, one, the number one thing, maybe don't have an affair and go to a Coldplay concert. That would just mean this publicist's advice. But on that note,

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (44:20)

you

KJ Blattenbauer (44:25)

I think there's a right and wrong way to do things. think that they're, you know, everyone loves to see people rise from nothing. And then we put these people on a pedestal and we start to get a little jealous because it reminds us of all the things we haven't achieved. And it shows us things inside ourselves that we might not like. And that's an us problem. It's not that person up there's problem. But then when that person falls off that pedestal, people seem to kind of like that too. It's just a weird part of human nature.

But what's important is if you do the rise, if you're on the pedestal, if you fall off the pedestal and everybody wants to see you fail, it's not true. Not everyone wants to see you fail because what people love more than anything is the bounce back. It's owning your story. If you made a mistake like the Coldplay guy, and if he had just come out right away and been like, I made a mistake, this was wrong. If he had just apologized to his wife, to his kids and been sincere about it.

It would have been a whole different news cycle. It wouldn't have become the joke that it was. But now I see that he's out there saying that he was in an open marriage and he's going to sue anyone that talks about it. Like, buddy, you are not doing yourself any favors and also get a publicist because who is telling you to put these public things out there? Just stop. I think if anything happens that goes south, it's assessing the situation. Is it a troll you can ignore?

Is it a customer that you should reach out to personally or through whatever the channel is that they made their displeasure known? Or did you truly make a mistake? Did you screw up? And if you did, sincere apology. But with that sincere apology, and it has to be sincere, you also then have to follow it up with the actions to fix what you just apologized for. And after that, nothing should be an issue anymore. Then you have a chance to redeem yourself and you just have to keep showing up as you promised that you would.

and people will forget about it. You'll move on. It'll be a little footnote.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (46:20)

That is such an example. And I don't know if it was weeks or months before that guy said he was in an open marriage, but at the time what stood out to me was that suddenly people were associating that company just with that incident. And the thing I loved about how things unfolded is that eventually Gwyneth was saying, it's great. Everybody has such an interest in.

this tech now and they were bringing the attention back to what they're really about. That was really crucial. Do you agree that if there is a crisis like that, there's space to bring it back to what someone is really about?

KJ Blattenbauer (47:09)

Yes, I think there's always space to bring it back to what things are really about. I would say that there's a tasteful way to bring it back to what things are really about. ⁓ Do I have a specific idea of what I would have done differently besides calling in Gwyneth? No. But ⁓ I do also think you have to take a step back and look at it for what it is. That company needed to save itself. It was getting bad press. At the same time, it's a story about two families that are kind of going through something awful.

incredibly publicly and there are kids involved. And I think you always have to be extremely, like you should be extremely concerned about anyone's feelings, but when there are kids involved and like two marriages are getting ruined, I think that there's a mindful and a tactful way to move forward and go about things in a combative way. Like the male CEO handled things was not the way. So, you know, the Gwinnett thing, was it funny? Yeah, it was funny, but

Ugh, when you take a step back, the whole thing is just sad.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (48:10)

It really is. And you mentioned the kids. think people around the world weren't thinking about that. And that whole saga, everybody saw it. was, it was so deeply entrenched in everybody's minds for days and weeks. And everybody from every walk of life turned it into a joke. It was just, it became a cultural phenomenon. I remember seeing these

mock-ups at whatever you call it from Ikea and you know so many brands were piggybacking off it. It was a whole thing in itself. But I think that that incident became somehow a product and behind all of that there were children and you're bringing things back to the humanity of things.

KJ Blattenbauer (48:59)

Mm-hmm. It does.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (49:08)

Feel so grateful that I have seen relatively sheltered versions of attention because when there is family involved and when people do need privacy about some issues, I think it's absolutely worth looking at that for a second. If you want to give some wisdom to listeners, maybe they have.

children or maybe they are caring for a family member with extra needs or maybe someone is struggling with their own personal health issue privately and they don't want the world to know or whatever it might be and then if someone is having a personal brand and a public presence but they still need to keep those boundaries, how do you guide that?

KJ Blattenbauer (49:57)

Well, think it's remembering that just because your business is public or you might want to be a public figure, it doesn't mean you have to tell people everything. You don't have to give people your diary. They're not hiring you to know your innermost secrets. You only have to share what you're comfortable sharing. So first of all, I think it's setting hard boundaries for if I had children, my children would not be on social media. They wouldn't be mentioned in anything. I wouldn't be telling stories about them.

When I write bios for my clients, I tell them not to put their kids in there because the world is full of weirdos. And I just, she's a mom to three beautiful kids. Okay, I can see why you would be proud of that. I would be proud of that. beyond that, let's not say anything. I even kind of am like, ⁓ three kids, we have to tell them how many you have so they know how many to kidnap. It's that sort of thing or how many that they need to taunt. I'm always really...

proud of the celebrities who don't show their kids' faces on social media because people will go harass those kids, right? And it's bad enough that, you know, they're probably getting harassed at school for things their famous parents say all the time. They don't need to get it from strangers on the internet or have how they look be attacked by strangers on the internet. ⁓ I really feel...

Like you just don't have to share your whole life with people. And if you're personally going through something, whether it's illness, whether it's hard times at home, whether, know, sometimes it's just hard being an entrepreneur and you just need to take a break. You just say it. You don't have to, you don't have to even say why, you don't, see press statements all the time. My family is dealing with a difficult time. We're asking for privacy right now. ⁓

know, Kelly Clarkson just had to do it. She stepped away from her very fabulous talk show earlier this year. She didn't give a reason outside of the statement that just said, you know, stepped away to deal with a personal family matter for enjoy our guest hosts for the next for the next little bit for the future. And they didn't even give a timeline and then they would have different guest hosts host or show. Well, we know now that she had to step away from her Vegas residency and a couple other commitments because sadly her ex-husband, died from cancer. Right. But we didn't know until

You know, it's not it's none of our business what's going on in her home life and whether she's a superstar or whether you're, you know, Sally down the street from you. No one owes you every single thing that's going on in their life. That's just unless they're 100 percent filming a reality show. And even then, reality people are not sharing you with you everything that's going on in their life. think it's picking and choosing your boundaries, picking and choosing what you want to share. And if you're stepping away from something or you're going through something and you need to take a social media break.

Say why, if you feel like it, or just take the break and step away. I mean, it's not an airport. You don't have to announce your departure.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (52:40)

love that so much, so much. It's okay to take a break. To be real with you, I can share that in my twenties, I think I was seeing the opposite of some of those things. As I said, as mainly in community, wasn't, I wasn't a Kardashian and I was sort of glad for that, but there were people saying, don't take a break, just keep going. And that was just...

ingrained in my beliefs so much that even months ago, I didn't know how to stop. so I think that hearing from a publicist, it's okay to have a pause. I love how every conversation I've had on this podcast comes back to self care.

KJ Blattenbauer (53:25)

Right, because selfishly from my world, if you've done all the press up until you need to, if you have everything rocking and rolling and you don't physically have to be there to provide your service or your product, you can take all the pauses you want. The press is going to snowball. Your stuff's going to sell just because you're physically or mentally not there. If you have the newspaper articles, the podcasts that are running, your website's up and going, things are being fulfilled product or service wise, people won't know if you step away or not.

You don't have to tell people what you're going through.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (53:56)

You don't have to say things. And I have a question that really reaches for something that I normally pursue. So I try to look for some people who know and understand that there's more than what people are saying online. And I'm wondering if you align with it as well, where if someone is creating a public presence, they're still.

keeping a few people around them selectively who are seeing beyond what's public so you can still be a human being.

KJ Blattenbauer (54:32)

True, true. You're the company of who you keep, right? So if you're the company of the five closest people around you, I hope one of them really knows you inside and out, and they can call you on your BS, and they can share your joys, and they can remember you before you were the famous person you become, or they can remember you from the startup, and they can love you the same whether you're making a dollar or millions of dollars. I hope there's at least one person in your circle like that. ⁓

What you tell them in the middle of the night during like sleepovers is not what you have to share with Bob on Instagram. Like it's just, you just don't have to, you don't have to do that. And along those same lines in that circle of five people, I hope you only keep people that have your best interest at heart. Because if you do go from making a dollar to millions of dollars, if you don't have the right circle around you, someone's gonna sell you out and tell all your secrets and you don't want that either. So just, you know.

Quality, not quantity, of people in your group.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (55:34)

Be careful about who is in your inner circle.

KJ Blattenbauer (55:37)

Mm-hmm.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (55:40)

So true, so true. I wanted to bring it back to products for a moment as we wrap up in our last five or 10 minutes, because it has been amazing talking about the very personal human side of all of this. But at the end of the day, most people who are creating a public presence are doing it because they want to provide something. do you have perhaps some final words of wisdom?

for people who are trying to create the best possible offering, be it a product or service, and they are trying to narrow down their targeting. Maybe they have been just local and only serving their one suburb or town for a while, and they are wondering if they should stick with that, but also...

Just any last words of wisdom for anyone who's trying to make sure that their offering is the best thing that it can be before they are ready to then share it.

KJ Blattenbauer (56:47)

Right. Well, I think you find where your ideal client is, the person that you really want to serve, the person that you think your product or service is best suited for, and you reach out to five strangers or you reach out to five of your customers and you ask them, hey, how's your experience been with my stuff? Full disclosure. What could be improved? What do you like about our product? What didn't you like about our last launch? You ask them. And if there are people who have, you know who would be a great person to source? The people who come and abandon a card on your site.

Like what made you not want to purchase? What about this doesn't feel right for you? Just ask the question. I think the best way for you to grow is to do research, right? Research your product, research your service, get on that old Google machine and Google, okay, what are people asking about? Insert your profession here. If I needed to think of content for public relations and new services, if I wanted to serve my clients best, the first thing I would do is Google.

I would literally Google, what questions do people have about public relations? And then I'd Google after that, what services are people Googling for public relations? And I would find it. And then because it's me and I have to know more, I go to chat GPT, I'd ask the same questions. I would cross reference to those things and I narrow it down. From there, I'd reach out to people who I think could benefit from PR, who aren't my clients, but I think should be. And I'd be like, hey, I have a couple of questions for you.

love to give you some free PR advice if in return we could have a focus group of one and I could ask you five questions, not 50, not a ton of their time, not taking them to coffee, five quick questions, less than 30 minutes of their time. ⁓ And I think that that would help you build an offering. Then if you're already someone who knows what your offer should be, say you're a real estate agent, right? And you're in your tiny community, but you wanna start serving the community next door, the town next door, or you wanna grow regionally.

Okay, so you've probably been featured in your local media outlets. Why wouldn't you extend your expertise to other ones? If you're doing blog posts, if you're doing podcasts, if you're doing social media posts, Google what questions do people have about real estate? Pitch yourself to your local media and to the media a couple cities over. Go national if you want to. Go international if you feel like it. I'm assuming that there are certain tactics for selling a home that are universal.

So I think those are simple ways to broaden your scope, to narrow down what your offering should be, but then to also promote yourself externally.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (59:15)

That's so much that people can do. Thank you so much for the practical solutions that everybody can do to take the next step in their process. KJ, if someone wants your guidance or more wisdom from you beyond this conversation, what should they do?

KJ Blattenbauer (59:35)

They can visit my website. It's hearsaypr, H-E-A-R-S-A-Y-P-R dot com. Or you can find me on Instagram. My handle is at KJ Blatenbauer and that's at KJBLA-TTEN-B-A-U-E-R. Or they can pick up my book, which is coming out at the end of December and it's called Pitchworthy and it's going to have 20 of the best PR tips that is going to help you excel.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (1:00:01)

pitch-worthy. Awesome. Everybody should read that. Thank you so much for the conversation.

KJ Blattenbauer (1:00:02)

Mm-hmm.

Thank you, thank you, I appreciate it. Thank you for having me.

Thank

Summary

In this conversation, Nicole Pieris shares her experiences as a single parent balancing her career in politics with family life. She emphasises the importance of community involvement, mental health awareness, and the need for face-to-face interactions. Nicole discusses the challenges of housing affordability and the significance of building support networks. She encourages parents to engage their children in community activities and highlights the power of vulnerability in fostering connections. The conversation concludes with a call to action for individuals to get involved in their local communities and support one another.

Show notes and transcripts are automatically generated.

Keywords

community, single parent, political engagement, mental health, volunteering, support networks, self-care, housing challenges, family involvement, social connection

Takeaways

Be prepared to juggle responsibilities as a single parent.

Don't hesitate to ask for help when needed.

Involve your children in community activities to foster understanding.

Face-to-face interactions are crucial for mental health.

Community groups can provide essential support during tough times.

Politics can play a significant role in community engagement.

Housing affordability is a growing concern for many families.

Self-care is essential for those in public-facing roles.

Encouraging children to volunteer can create a culture of helping.

Building connections through shared activities can strengthen community ties.

Titles

Navigating Life as a Single Parent

The Power of Community Involvement

Sound bites

"Finding community through volunteering is rewarding."

"The power of vulnerability in community is significant."

"The impact of small acts of kindness can be profound."

Chapters

00:00 Introduction to Nicole's Journey

02:34 Balancing Career and Single Parenthood

05:38 Involving Family in Community Engagement

08:52 The Importance of Face-to-Face Interaction

11:32 Addressing Mental Health and Community Needs

14:19 The Role of Politics in Community Support

17:29 Navigating Housing Challenges

20:21 The Struggles of Everyday Life

23:21 The Importance of Community Networks

26:15 Self-Care in Public-Facing Roles

28:39 Creating a Culture of Helping

31:33 Engaging the Next Generation

34:18 Finding Community Through Volunteering

37:32 The Need for More Inclusive Groups

40:25 Building Connections Through Shared Activities

43:20 The Power of Vulnerability in Community

46:10 Encouraging Local Involvement

49:11 The Impact of Small Acts of Kindness

52:17 Creating a Supportive Culture

55:00 Conclusion and Call to Action

Transcript

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (00:01)

We have Nicole on the podcast. Nicole, thank you so much for coming onto the show.

Nic Pieris (00:06)

No problem, my pleasure.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (00:10)

Tell everybody about yourself and what you do for a

Nic Pieris (00:13)

Okay, about myself. Well, I live in Brisbane, well just north of Brisbane, and I have a daughter who's 12, Isabella, and she's just started high school this year. ⁓ So I'm a single mum, and I also work for the local state member of parliament. So that's what I do in my day-to-day.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (00:39)

Awesome. So you work for a ⁓ member of parliament and you are also in a political party as well.

Nic Pieris (00:46)

Correct, I'm a member of the Liberal National Party in Queensland.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (00:53)

And you said you're the treasurer of something.

Nic Pieris (00:56)

Yes, so our state, so we have federal seats and state seats and in the state seat, we call it our SEC, so our State Executive Council. I'm the treasurer, so I'm on the executive for that. So essentially, it's just, you know, giving your time to be able to carry out certain duties. there's, you know, chair, secretary, treasurer, vice chair, ⁓ and keeping engaged, ⁓ obviously with here in Queensland, the Liberal National Party is now in government. So my boss is a member of parliament and also in government. So we do have a lot of events and things like that. So treasurer's role can be quite important for that. Things can't get paid for without me. So ⁓ yeah, it's great to be involved though.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (01:45)

It's great to be involved in any group where you can help the wider community. And we're talking about that before we started recording. So I think that getting involved in community might be a great place to start. You mentioned that you're a single mom and you have been for a long time. It sounds like family and community and support networks are really crucial for life, along with apparently the calendar.

Nic Pieris (02:11)

absolutely. ⁓ So, you know, I'm really lucky to have some close family around. My parents only live an hour away, which is really not too bad. I'm actually up there, up here at the moment. So ⁓ nice for a little weekend getaway, but also they're available to come down and help me if I need it. They're retired. I've got, you know, a cousin that lives nearby, some friends from church who are also great ⁓ when I need them.

⁓ You know, vice versa, if they need something. It's nice to have that little crew that you've got not far from home to be able to support you in your day-to-day.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (02:49)

Absolutely. And so you have a teenage child, but you're very, very involved with your career. And the thing that you wanted to talk about quite a lot is, maintaining your career as a single parent. What words of wisdom do you have for single parents who are wondering if they can and should do more in their careers and in the community?

Nic Pieris (03:19)

Yeah, look, ⁓ I think my advice would be be prepared to have to juggle consistently. You know, you're the one person that is running the household and schedules. So.

You know, I think it's just important to not take things too seriously because there are going to be days where it doesn't work the best that it should. ⁓ But, you know, being open to asking for help as well, that's huge. You know, make sure you've got a good crew, people that you really trust, especially if you've got children. ⁓ But, you know, always ask because if you think about it, if someone was to ask you for help, generally we'll be like, of course we would.

So other people think that too. So I think it's really important to ask for help when you do need it. But yeah, know, career and everything. I think it's very, you know, important to make sure that, while you do have that schedule, that you do have that flexibility as well.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (04:18)

Absolutely. Having the career and being involved in the political space and having a child within that space, I think that is very interesting that you let me know that you get your daughter involved in that. And I don't want to try to talk anyone into taking a political side as such because I've met lovely people from all ends of the political spectrum. And also I think that

Nic Pieris (04:34)

Hmph.

Bye.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (04:47)

Great things can happen in other community groups as well, but I think the real gem in what you're doing is bringing your family into what you're doing and showing her what happens and how people run things. I could relate to that so much because I learned so many practical skills when family let me see what they do and get involved and do similar things.

Nic Pieris (05:14)

Mm.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (05:15)

So I'm wondering, have you seen with that, have you seen your daughter growing in her understanding and her interest in getting involved in the world?

Nic Pieris (05:27)

⁓ absolutely. And, you know, she gives me that feedback all the time. She was speaking to a teacher at school the other day and who was surprised that she knew who the prime minister was and, you know, how politics worked just a general day today. But for me, getting her involved is just I always think my parents always raised me to be in the room. ⁓ So we're always there for conversations. It wasn't like kids go here and adults go here. It was very

We're a multicultural background too, so that was probably a contributing factor. But, ⁓ you know, as she is my daughter, I am able to show her the ways in which I'm aligned, where my values sit. So like you said, you know, it doesn't have to be a certain political party whilst mine is very much, you know, sitting with the Liberal National Party. I understand that people, you know, walk all different sorts of lives and, ⁓ you know, what's important to them is something that they're open.

are able to open their children to. ⁓ And really what it comes down to is I just want her to be involved. I want her to take note of what's going on around her. Politics is a great avenue to be able to understand where to refer people. That is the biggest part of this job is I have been able to see so many different service providers, community groups, and what they give back to the community. Because without, I would never have known. And I live in a small little place, really.

You know, there's 31,000 people in the area that I live. It's a big, sort of big area. It's not like Sydney, but I can't believe the amount of community groups supporting, you know, elderly people, senior citizens clubs and pottery clubs and social belonging, you know, organisations with, you know, for disability services. It's great.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (07:21)

Absolutely. We're not; any individual person is not an island. And the common thread that I've seen with people from any set of values or anything is that we're social creatures. And also, we're not meant to just look after ourselves without help. So I think it's amazing that even within that space that you're in, you can see how, much variety there is for people to just get involved and connect with the wider world. We're preventing isolation. That's especially, of course, in this time in history. Do you agree that people need to actually see people in person as much as we're doing great things online, especially we're having conversations like this one, but there's something different about seeing the local community in person. Do you think so?

Nic Pieris (08:14)

⁓ absolutely. think we are social beings. I think that was the way that we were created. We just, it just works better. It works better being face to face, engaging with people. What you can see, like obviously, this app you're using is really good. I can see your face and your facial expressions, but it's so different to the body language that people use in person. ⁓ You know, being able to shake someone's hand and/or give someone a hug, you know, once you create community, you create lifelong friends too.

And, you know, I think that that face-to-face is important. think, like you said, you know, it does solve the isolation issue, but mental health is huge. ⁓ You know, their findings, they've conducted studies since COVID and so many people are experiencing loneliness because, you know, their social ⁓ groups have been disjointed in some way or people are then not engaged like they used to be. And I think it's...

causing a huge issue in the mental health space.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (09:18)

So that's even happening up north in Queensland, and I assume it would be happening right around the country.

Nic Pieris (09:24)

Yeah, absolutely. Look, in this area that I'm in at the moment, the council area is the Moreton Bay Regional Council. During COVID, they actually relaxed laws around ⁓ camping on public land. ⁓ So now we have four thousand homeless people living in and around the streets and parks in Redcliffe. It's become like an epidemic.

And these people have been offered housing numerous times, but that's one of the major things that came out of COVID in our area that you see physically day to day. ⁓ People can't operate in their shops properly. ⁓ There's an increased drug issue, which is actually fueling the whole thing, ⁓ in my opinion. There's that, and there's also, I think, people were just tipped over the edge. I think that's really what happened.

Mm.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (10:21)

That's devastating.

And I can share that I was in Queensland at the start of the pandemic before moving to New South Wales. And I remember at least for the bulk of 2020, the rules were so much more relaxed up north. And I don't know if it increased a bit since then, but there was so much more joy and people were still getting into the outdoors and so on. But I think that in other states, especially particular cities, people were hiding away inside instead of getting the sunshine.

Nic Pieris (10:47)

Mm-hmm.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (10:50)

And they think that if there are that many issues, this is where I'm going, if Queensland has so many issues with mental health and people being able to look after themselves post pandemic, then I can only imagine that it could be even more extreme in areas where people lost even more.

Nic Pieris (10:59)

⁓

absolutely. And the thing is, don't, you know, I'm obviously working in politics myself, and you hear about all the statistics, but I don't think we've scratched the surface with actually finding out what the full repercussions have been. And I think there's a lot of

I don't know at this point, is it worth looking into it, or is it worth people jumping on the ground and aiding that issue? I think that's what we've come to. think, you know, we can do all this, out all the statistics that we want and it's good. It does aid governments in funding and services and, you know, ⁓ there's a strategy there. However, I think like we've been talking about community, people just need to hit the ground. There are so many people out there that need help and they just need to be engaged with. My parents have just started.

They're retired and they've just started volunteering at the local ⁓ community centre. They make meals for the homeless. You know, they cook in the kitchens and that's their way of, you know, they've met some friends there and they can actually see how it helps people, you know, on a daily, weekly basis. So it's great.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (12:18)

Yes, I think that getting on with the solutions, I appreciate that so much. And I can tell you that I actually went to be in the audience of a local debate about a month ago, perhaps, where someone from a think tank was churning out all these statistics. And I was wondering, hang on, but had that person actually seen just the everyday reality of what people are dealing with in their actual lives?

the story and example behind all those statistics. Because I think that you just you see, I think you see the details of things more when you zoom in more closely than the stats. So I appreciate that so much.

Nic Pieris (12:58)

Hmm

Like, honestly, from my perspective, now I've worked for a federal member and a state member of parliament. I have never worked in a place that actually is on the ground with people more. You have people from all walks of life coming in for help. And, you know, my boss that I work for now, she has a nursing background. ⁓ So it's great. She's a wealth of knowledge in that area because health is a big thing. ⁓ know, state government looks after the health department of health. So.

You know, people are finding issues with finding housing, ⁓ you know, whether it be health issues, sometimes they're, ⁓ you know, try to get referrals, they've been waiting, they just need some information on it. We're able to just talk to those people, understand what their issues are and refer them on straight away. So, but yeah, we probably have, you know, ⁓ it's every day people email call and they come into the office, just, you know, they just pop in.

And so we're able to sit with them, try and advocate on their behalf straight away. And you carry the culture of your boss, too. ⁓ You know, with my boss, Carrie-Anne, ⁓ she's, we've all sat down and had a discussion. She, we see people, we make the time for people and, ⁓ you know, make sure that they don't leave without walking away with something. And I think that's, that's huge too. And I think, you know, even if you stop to have a discussion with somebody that might

not look okay on the street. Obviously, watch out for your safety, but at the same time, make sure that someone walks away with something. Whether it be do you need help with anything, or is there a number I can help you call, or we just don't know what impact we can have, just doing those little things.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (14:50)

You really don't know the impact, and you can be helping someone so much with a simple thing. You're right. And saying that you're helping people so directly. I can tell you now that I heard and saw various things about politics, but I never really knew that someone who works in a political office would be so directly helping people who are desperate. I think that a lot of people wouldn't realise.

that you're doing that, and other people in similar jobs would be there to help.

Nic Pieris (15:23)

Yep, absolutely. And you know, sometimes what I find is, is that we're almost like their last resort. So when people come in, they're on desperation's door. They're like, I'm going to be homeless tomorrow. I have to have this operation, and I can't do anything, and I end. I need ' end. I need help right now. They come in crying, frustrated. So you really see the bare nitty-gritty of life, and they've come to their luck, like, what do I have to do now? I'm just going to go to a politician's office. And then, but it's good that they spread the word, you know, so that people don't have to use us as a last resort. They can come and find out the information that they need, what support they can get from, you know, local community groups. And even though, you know, politicians don't really have anything with the setup and organisations as community groups, they're very engaged. So they know what people do. They know people's names. We know people's numbers.

We might talk to that person about this and see if we can get some help for this person's situation. So it's, yeah, it's very, very on the ground. know, they're on the ground and their electorate's going to every community event. My boss attends so many events. I manage her diary as well. So I know how many things she goes to. I know she's completely busy this weekend, you know, finding time for her family as well in amongst all of that. So they work hard.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (16:49)

They do, they do. You see the desperate people.

Nic Pieris (16:54)

Mm-hmm.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (16:56)

That's really significant. And I want to really acknowledge for a second that there will be people in Australia who will feel more trust with the leaders who are aligning with their values. And I think that hopefully the audience can learn from this and know even if someone could have different values, they are still trying to help as best they can anyway.

Even I think a lot of people could even be losing trust in politics in general. But there are good people in that place.

Nic Pieris (17:26)

Yeah.

absolutely.

Yeah, I think, you know, when things get tough and, you know, I'm not going to lie, things, I'm, you know, 36 now and 10 years ago, people weren't struggling with the things that they're struggling with now. It wasn't that hard. It was, it's hard for people. People are doing it tough and you can start to see a little bit happening. People are slowly starting to ⁓ protest even.

You know, we've seen a lot of protests around so it's really what what are people not happy with? What are they struggling with? The cost of living is a huge issue Which is what we see in the day, and I think, yeah I mean for me, and meeting with people ⁓ in the electorate, you know just everyday people has been really eye-opening because I Am very grateful for my position financially

community-wise, you know, I have a home to live in, I've got a daughter who goes to a private school, I'm lucky. I see people who are struggling who cannot make ends meet because of their electricity bill or the cost of... Have you gone to the grocery store lately? Have you seen how much it costs? I went to Coles the other day and I got like milk, eggs, bread, some vegetables and I swear it cost me $50. I was like, I don't know what cost $50, but that's insane, right?

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (18:56)

⁓

I have been a vegan for more than half a decade, but I can say that there are various things that just leap up or even sometimes, I mean, some things of any sort will just climb up. Even for me, I remember when the price of soy milk was going up even five years ago, and now, you realise, hang on, I don't think the incomes have really matched the prices that are going on here.

Nic Pieris (19:00)

I'm back.

Yeah, like inflation is huge, and you know, I'm the same. Have almond milk. I can't have, you know, cow's milk, but I swear it was six or seven dollars, and it's the brand I want to have, and it should be more affordable. It's almond milk. But you know, you know, we again, it's investing in your health and ⁓ some things are non-negotiables, but I'm so lucky I have that.

Nic Pieris (19:56)

because so many people don't. And, you know, they're the people that come in, and I just think sometimes it can get quite overwhelming, especially when it's been, you know, a busy day with lots of people coming in. They're very emotional. So that does take a toll. ⁓ You, I'm someone who sort of absorbs that. And I try to help, you know, coach that conversation to get around to how can we help, but also

How can we help your mental health right now? You know, did you want to come in and sit down and have a cup of tea? You know, do you want to go downstairs? Do you have any friends? Have those discussions because you can't send people away like that. I can't imagine sending people away to go to nothing. And then it's up to them whether they want to take the option, know, take the information, make that call. But yeah, it is hard.

Unfortunately, and I never thought I'd say it, I think it's really hard to live in Australia at the moment. It's hard.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (21:00)

You're acknowledging something that is very difficult, but honest to say, but I think that a lot of people know that deep down, I can only guess what housing affordability would be like in other countries. But right now, I know that even the rental markets are so much of an issue. I I moved out of Sydney at a time when

The idea of buying a place was becoming a bit more out of reach than it had been decades ago. And now, at this time in history, people are struggling to even see an affordable, suitable rental. And I think that's becoming an issue for so many people. And on top of even that search and that need, we are living in an era where it's almost expected to have two or three jobs or have a job in your own business at the same time. It seems to be expected these days.

Nic Pieris (21:58)

Yeah, absolutely. And I've got a story for you, too. So I have a full-time job, obviously, know, bills to pay, whatever. I'm OK financially. But I almost ended up I could have been had I not had good friends, homeless, literally. So I was renting an apartment, and the owner wanted to sell, so she was really nice. I'd known her for a lot of years, and I'd been living there for a couple of years, but ⁓ she just said look, take your time, ⁓ find somewhere to go, and I had found somewhere, and then I finalised the lease and a couple of days before I was moving out, that other option fell through. There was an issue, and ⁓ I ended up actually. I've got a really good friend, she's got this big house.

in the same, just a street away from where I was living, and it's a split house. So upstairs is one house and downstairs is another. And it's all very secure as a big, I'm, I like living in apartments because I feel that it's very secure and it's safe for my daughter and I. Otherwise I'm going to, you know, have to, I always say I have to get a big, ⁓ you know, get a house with two big dogs to, to make me feel like, you know, I'm not going to be broken into or anything. ⁓ But yeah, so, and then it took me, it's, so I actually get the keys to my new place tomorrow.

⁓ But it's taken like seven weeks to find another place. And that's how bad the rental market is up here at the moment, too. There's huge demand. And I just don't think there's enough houses for people. I don't know what the story was. But, you know, I thought I'm the perfect tenant, really. I mean, I've got a daughter who's in high school. It's not this huge, big family with young children, you know, banging walls and, you know, drawing on carpet. ⁓ So how can it be hard for me?

And that's the position I was almost in. You know, I'm seeing people living in their cars, and I'm thinking, wow, had I not had my support network, that could have been me.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (23:56)

That shows you, for starters, how crucial a network is in the community. Whatever someone's preferences are, find your people, whoever they are, because you never know. And it shows that that sort of thing happens to anyone.

Nic Pieris (24:02)

Yep, definitely.

Mm-hmm.

yeah, it can happen to anyone. That's exactly right. Like when I've told a few people and they're thinking, my goodness, it can literally happen to anyone. And I'm like, yep, you don't have to be struggling financially for it to be an issue.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (24:30)

Yeah, I think that people don't know what someone is dealing with. And I had no idea that you had that sort of struggle because you do have amazing work that's fulfilling and looking after you. But it's terrifying when you're wondering, are you going to find these basic things that you need, and how and when will the options appear?

Nic Pieris (24:59)

absolutely.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (24:59)

It's pretty scary when you're responsible for another human.

Nic Pieris (25:03)

And that's another thing, like, you know, the, I don't like, I hate playing the single mum card. I had a boss that used to use me as an example, because you know, Nicole's a single mum. This is what she does. I'm, can you say, you stop saying that? You know, but, but it's true. Like when I think about it, ⁓ I always said for me, it was an issue because home was so important to me to have a space that was just mine. ⁓ because in the public I'm operating at between 100 to 150 % every day. I'm talking to people every day. I'm talking to people who have huge issues every day. I'm writing to people who have huge issues every day, supporting my boss, know, just the general things in your job. And it's very front-facing. I'm connecting with people personally. So it can be, I'm an extroverted person, but it takes a toll on me some days too. And to be able to go home to the peace and quiet, the night that I don't have anything on.

just to chill out and watch a couple of movies is what we like to do when we're doing nothing, you know? And to not have that place has been quite hard. ⁓ Even though I've got my own space, it still does not feel like mine and ⁓ I'm constantly considering what's happening with other people or where's the dog or where, you know, ⁓ and you're in someone else's house. it's just, yeah, it's...

it can be very draining, but also it really makes you thankful for that time. I'm never going to be so much more grateful ⁓ for having my own apartment back. I cannot wait. I've been, you know, hanging out for this just so I can get my, little sense of peace back. ⁓ So I can't imagine what other people go through when they got to live in share housing and, you know, work a retail job or a hospitality.

and still not be able to afford to rent their own house.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (27:03)

It is hard to imagine those scenarios, but at least you have enough lived experiences to relate to those people enough. And that's something people need to remember that, that you do understand what it's like.

Nic Pieris (27:21)

And that's another thing right with community, because you're talking to people, and it's like you're a single mom. I'm a single mom. We've had a chat, ⁓ know, the last couple of days, and you realise you have to talk to people. You have to engage even if it's not your thing because sometimes you think it's just you and when you start sharing those skills, and I call it skills because it's a skill to understand, you know, what the best way to handle a busy week is. What's a good idea that someone else has lived and has now got that experience to share with me, or I can share with them. This is what works for me. Try this. You know, people need that conversation. People need that motivation.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (28:38)

I really wanted to go back to this self-care side of that for a second, because that has been a common theme. I've been talking to all sorts of different people in this podcast, and they have all sorts of different jobs. And you're reminding me that even in a public-facing role, and I think there are all sorts of different public-facing roles, the self-care is crucial. You've mentioned things like having a buffer in the calendar. So you're not.

overwhelmed and getting too stressed out or stretched too thin. And the support, sorry, the support networks are another form of that, but also, also just making sure that you have the space. I think it was really significant that you mentioned needing some quiet time or just a switch off away from people. And I'm not sure if people really do that all the time. And that's probably a lesson that we can learn that if you're helping people all day long, it's okay to have a break from that. So I'm getting the sense that self-care has been a part of doing what you do.

Nic Pieris (30:01)

Yeah, and look, I'm not going to sit here and say that I've done it right every single time. mean, at one stage, like in all honesty, I was drinking way too much wine when I got home and

I actually got to a point where I thought, 'Am I an alcoholic?' Is this how I'm using my time to, ⁓ you know, de-stress after work? And I thought this is not helping my health. I was not sleeping properly. And ⁓ then you just have to make a change. You've got to put yourself in a position where you're ready to go and you're working at full capacity the next day. I think there are two ends of the spectrum. I think sometimes people work themselves into the ground and don't take the rest when they need it. And then I also heard this really great quote the other day, and I think it was C.S. Lewis, I'm pretty sure it was C.S. Lewis, said some people are so afraid of burnout that they're not even burning. And how powerful is that?

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (30:55)

That's beautiful.

Nic Pieris (30:56)

Yeah. And I thought, you know, some, some, I know, look, I've had the criticism, oh, you do too much. Oh, this is how I'm thinking. Hmm. Yeah. Some weeks are busy, but I love what I do and I love helping people in any way I can. I have a huge capacity to do it. That's me personally. Um, but yeah, I, people might see me rushing around this area or Parliament House when I'm walking down through the things, but I still veg out. get into my pyjamas, go home, have a

real nice hot shower, sit there with you ⁓ you know those gay time ice creams I love them so much, cup of tea, a gay time ice cream in my fluffy socks and I sit there and binge watch Gilmore Girls or Friends, something that like you know

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (31:44)

You watch Gilmore Girls. I love Gilmore Girls. And of course, it's a single mom show, and it has all the caffeine in it. It was, I think, that as much as Gilmore Girls had its ups and downs in how all of those, we won't go too much into this, I have to say as much as the characters had as their flaws. I think it said to everybody a long time ago, it's okay to be by yourself and looking after yourself, but rushing around a bit and trying to do the impossible. It showed that it was okay to do that.

Nic Pieris (32:21)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, and look, you know, I sometimes think there's some things that I do really well and I can keep up on that. But there's other times where I'm like, my bedroom is looking really tidy, but my car looks like, you know, I've had seven children who've just played soccer, jump in ⁓ and grass. It really needs a dust. And then there's other times where I look in my fridge and things are out of date. then, but usually if I can keep three things going, like, you know,

My hair is washed, my nails aren't growing out, look how bad they are at moment. As long as I can keep it lit, feel like I'm winning. And I'm like, realistically in the grand schemes, if I've got some off milk in the fridge, you know what, it can wait till the weekend. ⁓ you, that, you know, clothes need to be washed for school, lunches need to be made, ⁓ you know, breakfast needs to be ready for the next day, coffee needs to be a thing.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (32:59)

⁓ wow.

Nic Pieris (33:21)

⁓ So there are those things, but some days you just have to pick up and wait another couple of days till you've got some spare time. It's about prioritising. And sometimes other people come before, you know, my milk in the fridge. So that's what we do.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (33:40)

I totally, totally get that. And so many people have used the phrase, you can have it all, but not all at once. And that probably reflects what you're describing, that it's okay if one moment you are just having some peace to yourself, but the next moment work is everything. Community is the priority, and your tidiness and perfection can wait until after you've helped everybody else. And

Nic Pieris (33:48)

Mm.

Yep.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (34:10)

That is probably dedication that makes a difference in a lot of spaces.

Nic Pieris (34:16)

Yeah, exactly. And you know what is really great that day where you just sit there on a weekend and you've got it all done. What a great feeling. You know, sometimes it's almost worth not doing everything. So that that one weekend a month, you're like, everything's in order. I've done the shopping. The house is clean. My car is clean. My hair is washed. Like all of these things, you know, the washing is folded. There's a lot to do in amongst a busy day, especially when you don't have someone else, you know, helping. So.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (34:50)

Yeah. Yeah. I think that so many people, it's funny, I've heard from overseas and from other spaces that the ideal these days is to get anyone to help with a lot of those everyday things. But as we discussed, we're in, we're in a social space at this point where people are barely able to look after themselves, let alone bring someone in to help. So it's a stretch, and you have that much stretch. think

That's the really interesting thing for me. I think the juggle that I've seen that I hope that you can relate to is that when you love being in community, there's this extra juggle where you want to be there for your family, and you want to do the work that you need to do to live. But then you're also passionately wanting to connect with community. And I think that that's

a beautiful tug in a few directions.

Nic Pieris (35:53)

absolutely. You know, like I've said before, we briefly touched on it. Having my daughter involved is the best thing because we do it as a family. We're together, still spending time together, but learning new things together, speaking to people together. ⁓ You know, the local, obviously, our federal election just passed and state election last year up here in Queensland. So we were volunteering on, you know, at the market stalls and yeah.

Isabella was in her little shirt, you know, ⁓ supporting our candidate and ⁓ letterbox dropping and working at the stall, talking to people, engaging with people. And it's interesting, the sort of looks that you get ⁓ with when they look at her and she's got the shirt on and they're thinking, wow, younger people are engaged. And she's not the only one. We've got another little boy who's 12 who just wants to do it himself. He's jumping in there, getting involved.

⁓ I've got really good relationship with his mum now and she always just messages me, are you doing this? Can Wade come with you? And so we have a great little community ⁓ where kids can be involved and they can. It's just, I do think it's been the most important thing is that I am happy to do it, but it's a bonus if my daughter can come with me because then I can allocate more time to it.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (37:18)

So it helps when it's possible. And it's great that you're bringing the conversation back to how your daughter can get involved. I can reflect on my individual experience and say that I started consistently volunteering when I was 21. And I truly wish that I would have done something a lot sooner. And so I'm wondering if you have any suggestions for perhaps

parents or kids who are old enough who want to get involved in something because we talked before at some point before after I clicked record about how anyone can get involved in anything, but I think I'm wondering if there are any extra things to consider if young people are wanting to and I think this could be extra important now I think of it because young people are so glued to their screens and

Nic Pieris (38:14)

Okay.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (38:16)

They're on social media a lot, so it could be even more important to connect, to go beyond the screens. What do you think that young people should be doing?

Nic Pieris (38:19)

⁓

I think the screen, you know, that whole, it's an epidemic. It's, they're addicted. It's the dopamine hit. There are, you know, actual studies coming out now saying that it's causing huge mental health issues within younger children. And

I know me personally, I've kept Isabella away from it. She's got an iPad for school, but she is not on social media. She does not play computer games or video games. We barely watch TV because we don't have time to. We'd rather have conversations. Yeah, I think going back to how people can help. Mean, if I think of my community now, I mean, my boss said when I first started working for him, the federal member, I wanted to go and help this group and it was Mums. It was called Red Cliff Mums Incorporated and they go around getting donations from local businesses, everyday people, they get all of the school supplies and then in January when the school term starts, they give it all the way to people that really need it and they have trivia nights to raise money, you know, they auction off hampers and things like that. They're doing amazing work. They even pay for like school uniforms for some struggling families and

I was thinking, I really want to do that. You know, I want to get involved and do that. And then my boss said to me, "You can't join every group that comes in the front door, you know." Was like, and I want to help them. I don't want to help them. And I thought what I really found my place was being a great referral ⁓ because people generally will ask me, how can I do this? Or what do I need to do to get this grant for my local community group? Or, ⁓ you know, who can I send this person to? They're looking for a job in disability services and

You know, so you get those calls sometimes, which I think is being great. I just try and keep across what's out there and help when I can. You know, I tend to trivia night by a table or by a seat ⁓ and go and participate and help raise money, you know, or tell my friends about it. Hey, do you want to come to this trivia night? ⁓ People sometimes laugh at me for going to this, but I really enjoy them. I think it's hilarious. I think they're great. I don't know because it's. I think people laugh because they think it's this old person thing, and it's not.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (40:31)

Why?

I

Nic Pieris (40:39)

There are so many younger people that would just absolutely love it if they just gave it a go. And, you know, I take my daughter as well. She comes to them. But I really think ways that people can really help is like the local like we've got a local breakfast club. So people go there, make breakfasts and it's people who can't afford it. It's generally the elderly community. Some, you know, young, some disabled.

but they have a place to come and sit down, have a meal, have a chat. There's also the local Salvation Army has like a little office there. So if they need extra support, know, additional support, ⁓ that's then provided. ⁓ There's, you know, volunteers are required at the hospitals. ⁓ You know, some, I remember when I first moved ⁓ from Sydney, one of my friends, I was attending a local church and she said,

I said, I just need to do something because I don't have a job yet. And in the meantime, I was just getting so bored. And she said, "Do you know that you can actually go and volunteer to feed the stroke patients?" So in the hospital said that the nurses can actually do what they need to do. But a lot of these people just need to be fed or, you know, and so I'm just thinking, I was like, it doesn't really take a lot to be able to find these places, but a lot of these places run by volunteers. So

You know, there's this other really great group, especially for guys, and I think young guys. Women do it really well, and I think men would be really great to get more involved if we could do that. ⁓ It's called Band of Brothers, and they go on these walks and raise awareness about, you know, mental health, men's mental health, and they just create a little community. They have coffee, they go on walks. They actually monitor a car park, so there's a local church.

that gives up their car parks so that single mums who are homeless living in their car ⁓ have a place to stay, and they run that. So they help in other areas too. So, you know, that's just started up by volunteers, people who have got time who want to give back. So, you know, how great.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (42:51)

I'm glad that you brought up the need for men to have groups. And I agree. think that women for so many reasons are more easily finding groups that they can really feel belonging in and connection. And I was seeing that issue so much because of course in the last few years, was connecting with men who were

perhaps a bit more isolated than they had been in previous years. And they might be connected with family, they might try a hobby, but then it's the sort of hobby where they're just doing it individually. And I just saw that some, some blokes at least don't have a group. They don't have their people. And that has to be contributing to the mental health issues for sure. And it's definitely not

Ideal, it's not healthy. So at least from what I've seen, for example, I go to yoga, but it's normal to see a lot of women in yoga. Yoga is for everybody. But so I think some of these types of communities naturally attract women or there are the moms groups. And I passionately wish for more parents groups that include both genders without being called a mom's group. But absolutely, I think that there's room for more groups.

Nic Pieris (44:08)

⁓

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (44:17)

Alongside what you said from your boss, you said that your boss said you can't join every group. I'm getting inspired by that, don't join every group. But you agree we need more groups out there

Nic Pieris (44:22)

You

yeah. And, you know, I was ⁓ reading this book recently and it was called The Fight for Female. And it was actually sort of taking down the whole feminist movement as much as I believe that women, you know, look, I do it on my own. I'm a single mom. I do really think that men have a very strong place in our communities. ⁓ We can't do it without them. Men offer so much, and I feel like their voices just of late have been quiet. ⁓ And I do really think that maybe their community is not like what it used to be, unless you're involved in a sporting group or a rotary when you're retired or like Toastmasters as well. Yeah, I think it's really hard to connect other than if they go and have a few beers. I'm like, you know, I've got a few friends who are probably middle aged, who's still working young families and they're involved in community.

and they make time for it. hard, but they do make time for it. And I think I would like to see more of that. And I think some people do it really well. And, ⁓ you know, I will acknowledge church groups for that because they seem to engage really well with the younger community, men and women. But yeah, girls, what I had boss once that said to me, ⁓ how come he, I was working as a body corporate manager, and he said, a client asked him in front of me, "How come you always have women doing this job?" And then he just said, he turned around and he said to him, "Well, to be quite honest, women can talk under wet cement." And he said, and that's what makes them good at this job. And I just laughed and I thought that is so funny because it's so true that, you know, as soon as you get a group of girls together and it's chit, chit, chit, chit, chit, you know, like talking, you know, talking about kids, talking about life when guys aren't as great at doing that.

And that's just, you know, a natural thing. They don't want to talk about their feelings. They don't want to talk, and you know, but that doesn't mean that they can't get involved.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (46:37)

A friend told me that guys like to connect by just doing something around each other, be it making something, mending something, whatever it might be. So they connect by doing more than talking. It's a generalisation, but I think for some it could be true.

Nic Pieris (46:56)

Yeah, like we've got in our local community, the Men's Shed. So they build things. They've got this and then there's this other one that's the ⁓ I think it's the Men's Shed or it's some other sort of crafty thing. We got them some funding for a Wood-Mizer. Like it actually cuts planks of wood like thirty thousand dollars for this thing. But they go and make things. They give them donate to people. And yeah, I think you know, coaching soccer clubs, you know, sports coaching that seems to, you know, being part of a club, a soccer club, they go and watch the games, they have a drink after, you know, that sort of thing, I think is really good. ⁓ But I do think, you know, there are people out there, there are definitely people out there. And I think, again, it's just about creating that conversation so that people know, I can actually really actively help in this and find your interest.

Whether it be hands-on, chatting, or offering support, our church does this really great; it's got this really great group called the Love Army. So it's a bunch of guys that we hear from the community when people come and say we're in trouble, you know, there's this old lady who needed to move house and she didn't have enough money and ⁓ the Love Army gets together, bunch of guys and girls, and they go and help people move or help clear out someone's, you know, back garden, mow the

garden and prune the trees, you know, if we get that feedback from community. But unless people start talking, we don't know where to go and help. So I think that's a great idea, right? Even just on a weekend, go and mow an old lady's front garden, start a group, call them some, I don't even know, call them a name and the mowing thing, you know.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (48:41)

Any questions?

Actually, there's a point; you would have seen various organisational structures doing what you do. And we can trust there are ways to make a group without having to be scared of overly formal structures. You can just have a group.

Nic Pieris (48:57)

Yeah, absolutely. What's stopping people from, you know, you could even, I hate, I really think I've cottoned onto something with this mow group. But like, you're Moa, are you? And then go have a drink after and have some lunch and a chat. You know, like how good would that be? I'm sure a lot of guys would like that.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (49:18)

Yes. Well, the chat after doing something is normally the part where you connect a bit more. And I can relate to that bit because I'll be doing an event at the end of the month. And the cool part is that afterwards, the small team that set it up, we're going to chill and chat and celebrate afterwards. And I think that when you have those wins in any sort of group, you can feel a sense of achievement and achieving something together and it could be anything. I love the mowing the lawn thing that you said because guys know how to do something practical and useful and helpful. And I'm going to assume that they want to feel helpful or they want to feel useful.

Nic Pieris (50:02)

Absolutely, like it's so rewarding, right, to be able to help somebody, and you get that feedback. Mean, I love it when someone says, Thank you so much for helping me. And I just think, wow, I didn't even help them that much, but they've really appreciated that. And I think I just helped make that person's day. It's more rewarding than anything that you could do. It's someone saying, I'm grateful for you today and that time that you gave me.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (50:29)

Absolutely. Being grateful. It's a good feeling. And you mentioned helping people to move. In this time when the housing situations are so out of control, that's something that people can do that's really small and simple. Because if someone is dealing with enough trying to even find a place and move into a place and deal with life, if you're even helping someone to move a bit of the furniture or whatever it might be, that can really make a difference.

Nic Pieris (51:03)

Oh, absolutely. You know, people can't move on their own. You can, you might be able to carry a few bags and a couple of boxes, but as soon as you're moving, you know, queen-size mattresses and fridges and washing machines, there's a lot of people out there that can't afford the five, $600 it is to move. So, you know, how do families afford that when they're already struggling?

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (51:28)

Definitely. And that's, think we've really identified something that I've been thinking for months and it's so nice to acknowledge it. I want to thank you for really acknowledging that voluntary groups or simply communities can be helping with some of these things without having to throw money at it. Because I do realise that there is some problems that need a monetary solution, but there is some, I think that there are some people out there who just need someone to do a few little things. And then I'm going to be a bit bold and say that I think Australia needs to evolve its culture into one that wants to help each other. Because I'm going to go ahead and say that I think that people are in their own little bubbles a lot.

Nic Pieris (52:23)

Absolutely. Absolutely. And, you know, children learn from their parents. So, you know, we need to be very mindful of how our children, how we're raising our children, because are we losing that community that was there in the 40s, 50s, 60s era? Now what have we got? We've got kids sitting in front of an iPad because they're being kept out of the way when we engage with them. They're not useless. Children are very intelligent little things sometimes.

You know, being able to show them how to help people is a huge thing; it's creating culture, and we need to go back to creating that volunteer community culture.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (53:05)

You really do. So you're saying now's the time to teach, teach the next generation.

Nic Pieris (53:13)

Absolutely. Like people need to start taking their kids. People need to start having their kids in the room when they're having these discussions. ⁓ It's, you know, I don't know, I never thought of it as an issue. I was appreciated being in the room when my parents had friends over for dinner. We weren't sent away. Sometimes you'd want to go and play with the kids. But if there was none, we still sat at the dinner table. We still engaged in conversation. ⁓ People were interested in what we wanted to say as well. So

But get them out there, get them involved, get them learning about people and get them caring about people because we can't grow into a selfish community, like a selfish culture. That's really what's happening. People are like, but does it serve me? What do I get from it? We need to change that. It's just not how we're meant to be. And some people do it really well.

satisfaction that comes from it, being able to lend someone a hand, but also has anyone, if you think back to when someone really helped you when they didn't even know that you needed it, it's huge. That's so powerful, like to even think of that those times when someone just didn't even know. And sometimes, you know, look, I have struggled over time accepting help. And a lot of the time it's not because I don't want the help, it's just that when someone says, "How can I help you?" And like my dad said, "How can I help you move out of your storage unit into your new apartment?" I said, "I don't even know where to start because I don't even know what's there." But I need to have a look at it to see, you know, how it goes. But I could have just said, sure, meet me there and let's sort it out because he just said, I've got the car, you know, I'm going to come and help you instead of trying to do it on my own. And sometimes I found pushing someone a little bit to say, well, I'm going to turn up tomorrow anyway. So, just be prepared for me to help out for an hour or something, you know, and that's just the way it starts. But, you know, we need to have, we need to be mindful of it. We need to think about how we're helping people because we can't expect the government and organisations to carry everybody. If we don't get involved, it won't reach.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (55:25)

No.

Absolutely. And whether the money exists for some things or not, it takes so much time and there's often so much more of a complicated background to allocating money towards things. But I've seen that when some forms of service become a job, it becomes more transactional, whereas similar forms of support can happen when people are just in community. And I wanted to really acknowledge that

we both went to a religious school a long, time ago. And we hadn't mentioned this earlier in the chat, but well in the recording, but we went to the same school. It was religious. I've had a bunch of phases of being not so religious in my adulthood, but I still between that and the secular volunteering background that I was also raised in, I just grew up with a sense of people help each other and people chip in and

We still need to look after ourselves and value our time and make sure that we are okay. But I've seen again and again that there are ways to, there are ways to stay connected and supportive in a community that you could end up needing one day. And it doesn't have to be religious. If you're that way inclined, great. But I wanted to actually passionately encourage the other groups. It could be anything.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (56:57)

So from the spectrum group over here, whatever they do, it's great. And I think there's so many groups of so many types. So even if you're not political or religious, would you agree that anyone should just get into a few groups? Not too many again, don't join every group. But do you agree that people just need to do anything?

Nic Pieris (57:16)

Hey.

⁓ yeah, look, honestly, to be honest, a lot of the groups that I've, you know, met and have worked with, they're not religious or political. Most of them aren't political. They know it's good to be able to help them in from that arena. You know, but most people aren't. So I do find that the church does, they're involved in a lot. just, whatever group I bumped into, generally there's church goers in there and that's a great culture.

⁓ because they're actively wanting to help and it just seems to come from churches. That's just the way it is. ⁓ But people aren't politically engaged, people aren't ⁓ even religious, and they still get involved. You don't have to be, you don't have to tick those boxes just to get involved.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (58:14)

Yeah, there's a phrase that's used for spaces like the 12 steps and things I have only heard about, where people say believe in something greater than yourself. And what we're probably talking about here is a greater collective power of human communities. That's simply greater than what one individual can do.

Nic Pieris (58:39)

Yeah, I mean, there are, that's what that was that saying this power in numbers. ⁓ Because, you know, one person helping someone in in comparison to five people being able to help your resource just expands right from that. And then you tell this person and tell that person, and then you create a community without even realising it straight away. You have you end up building great relationships. So it's not just about as well.

It's not just about helping and helping people who really need it. It's actually about creating a community for yourself. It all goes around. It's a cycle. It's like you help so that you can be involved. Then you make friendships. Then you're then served by your own little community who'll be there for you. You're there for them. And then you help other people. It's like it's a great little cycle. And ⁓ people often find that when they decide to get involved, they find a whole new.

crew, a whole new family for some people. Some people don't have friends or family, and they might move somewhere new. They might move from, ⁓ you know, out of the country or interstate, and they just need to find some friends. I friends who joined a mixed, what was it, mixed soccer team, ⁓ mixed netball teams. You know, they joined those groups so they can make friends. So.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (1:00:07)

get involved in anything. want to really, as we reach an hour, I want to acknowledge and thank you for showing what can really happen in public spaces. And I want to appreciate your vulnerability in sharing that you have struggled as much as other people do. And thanks for really, really detailing how people who are in public spaces are actually trying to help people and do actually understand and connect with community. think that has been the big takeaway that whether people can identify with the same values or not, trust that you're helping people. Other people are. I'm wondering if there's one thing you can say to an audience that in Australia and other countries, if someone isn't in Queensland and they are feeling a bit stuck,

Where should they turn? What do you suggest?

Nic Pieris (1:01:08)

Honestly, I would go to find out where your local outreach is. Everyone's got a breakfast club or a, what do they call them? ⁓ You know, the community centres run everything. If you go to the community center, you'll see something on the notice boards. Go and ask the local councillors , and go and ask the local state and federal members. They are the ones that attend all of these events. If someone comes in, I can straight away give you 10 brochures of different community groups. So go and ask them, go and say, "'Hey, do you know of community groups in the area?'

They're going to know. And it's a one-stop shop. You'll find all of them there. But, you know, it's been really great talking to you Mel, because you're the, think we're the same in the sense that we're not afraid to talk about the nitty gritty and be honest. And then something comes of that, because I think people just need to do that a bit more often. ⁓ And being real with people is just, there's something behind it. Because when you show your vulnerability and you tell the truth,

about what your life is. You don't understand how much it can help somebody else. And it doesn't matter if you want to have this persona of like you look like you've got everything together. Trust me, people don't have it together. Like you can't consistently have it together, but it can be done. talk to people, talk to single moms who are working, trying to put their kids through school, and, you know, struggling with other issues, ⁓ whether it be family or, ⁓ you know, family members with disability or mental health issues.

Without that discussion, it's a sad world for those people. So open up, have the discussions and see where that leads.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (1:02:49)

Sounds like a great idea. Nicole, thanks.

Nic Pieris (1:02:53)

No problem.

Summary

In this engaging conversation, Clare Taber shares her journey from military service as a combat medic to her current exploration of spirituality and advocacy. She discusses the influence of her family legacy on her choices, the challenges of parenting, and the importance of self-care for caregivers. Clare's experiences with personal loss and resilience have shaped her perspective on life, leading her to write a book and advocate for accessibility in her community. Throughout the discussion, she emphasises the significance of connection, empathy, and the ongoing journey of personal growth.

Keywords

military, spirituality, personal growth, advocacy, self-care, resilience, relationships, writing, accessibility, family legacy

Takeaways

Clare joined the military at 19 to help people.

She faced challenges during basic training but persevered.

Family legacy influenced her decision to join the military.

Clare met her husband while working as a medic.

Parenting and military life brought unique challenges.

She transitioned from the military to legal administration.

Clare experienced personal loss and its impact on her life.

Writing became a form of self-discovery for Clare.

Advocacy for accessibility is a passion for Clare.

Self-care is essential for empaths and caregivers.

Titles

From Combat Medic to Spiritual Writer

Navigating Life's Challenges with Resilience

Sound bites

"I always wanted to make my dad proud."

"I went back to school when I was 40."

"I joined the military when I was 19."

Chapters

00:00 Clare's Military Journey

02:59 Family Legacy and Personal Choices

05:52 Love in the Line of Duty

08:45 Navigating Life's Challenges

11:36 From Military to Spirituality

14:31 The Impact of Personal Loss

17:59 Finding Purpose Through Adversity

20:46 The Journey to Authorship

23:37 Embracing Spirituality and Creativity

26:17 Life Lessons and New Beginnings

29:16 Connecting Through Shared Experiences

32:18 Exploring New Activities and Social Connections

34:37 The Power of Connection

39:04 Navigating Relationships and Boundaries

43:48 Empathy and Self-Care

49:46 Advocacy and Accessibility

55:52 Personal Growth and Future Aspirations

Transcript

Clare Taber (00:00) table.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (00:02) Hello Claire Taber, thank you so much for being on the podcast.

Clare Taber (00:07) Thank you for having me.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (00:10) We were just talking before we got started about how you are ex-military and how you journeyed into that, and your family was in the military. Would you like to share more about that experience?

Clare Taber (00:25) Sure, I joined the military when I was 19. I became, it was called a combat medic. And so I really wanted to help people. At the time, I thought about joining either the Peace Corps or ⁓ the military, but ⁓ you needed a degree to join the Peace Corps. so I was kind of midway through college. So I decided to join the army and became a medic, and I was in for six years, met some of the best people that I've ever met ⁓ and it was, bless you, it was ⁓ definitely ⁓ a challenging and exciting experience. ⁓ I actually went to basic training twice because they gave me the wrong prescription for my glasses.

And so about week nine out of 10, we're all out in the field with camouflage on our face. And they pulled me over and they said, we don't know what to do with you. You can't graduate because you can't qualify with the weapon. And I kept hitting 19. And at the time, you needed at least 24 out of 40.

And I was like, well, I can't see the 300-meter targets. so they were like, well, you can either go home or you can do it again. And so I was like, well, my father was in, and I'm not going home a failure. So I was like, I'm going to do it again. And they thought I was crazy. And ⁓ so basically I went back to week two.

and kind of did everything, all the ⁓ training exercises, the road marches, all the physical things again. The only thing I didn't have to do again was the gas chamber. So I was very thankful for that.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (02:38) You got through the training, and you got into the work that you wanted. You were telling me before about how the previous generation had been in the military in your family. And so it was a big decision for you to do that because you had a bit more freedom to choose than your father did. I'm really keen for you to talk about that because I think some people in the audience will relate to.

deciding whether they want to do something that their family has done in whatever profession it might be. And also choosing a job that's challenging when people are wondering why are you picking this out of all the things you could be doing in life?

Clare Taber (03:24) No, absolutely. ⁓ Well, I will say that I am definitely a daddy's girl. ⁓ I always wanted to make my dad proud as well as my mom, but definitely I was always kind of following around my father and I knew he was in the army and he had actually joined the Navy after he was drafted in the army in the Korean War.

So I, ⁓ you know, when I was in college and I was having trouble paying for it myself, they had had us take the test in high school. It's called the ASVAB ⁓ Arm Services Vocational Aptitude Battery. And apparently I did well. So they sent me a letter and I kind of had it kicking around for about six months. And ⁓

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (04:13) You froze up there. Claire, I'm just going to grab a tissue for a second.

Clare Taber (04:22) Yeah, just decided to ⁓ take the leap of faith. When you're 19, you can definitely do a lot of things and you have a lot less fears. ⁓ So yeah, I just decided to join about halfway through my sophomore year.

It was actually ⁓ a wonderful experience because the second time I went to basic training, I actually was in basic training with my brother. ⁓ So people ask, how was it? And I was like, well, it was just like high school. was, you know, there he was in, yeah. So there he was in the chow hall and things like that. So it was. ⁓

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (05:00) It was like high school.

Clare Taber (05:08) a male and female basic training. You know, thankfully I had his support and, ⁓ you know, it was really great and I did get new glasses. So I was able to, you know, pass the, you know, rifle marksmanship and, and then, you know, went on and finished my six years. But yeah.

some fabulous people and met my future husband. So definitely grateful.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (05:47) You met your husband in work. You were both working in the same place. What's that like? And do you have any, any tips to share having met your person at work?

Clare Taber (06:03) So it's interesting because when I, he was in a different company, but he was a medic attached to a military police unit. And so at the time, I thought he was kind of annoying. I was like, who's this guy that's following us around? You know, and so we actually had to take a trip. We were in Virginia at the time to bring someone to the hospital because we were both medics.

And ⁓ I was in the back of the ambulance on the way, and ⁓ the person was kind of chatty, and I was like, all right, on the way back, you're sleeping, and I'm gonna sit up front. And the roads were dark and everything. So I kind of was chatting with him and trying to keep him awake and alert and things like that. So.

So yeah, I think that's kind of how things went, and we were more or less inseparable. ⁓ And I think we were married three years later. But ⁓ yeah, I definitely don't recommend it. People say it just happens. And you have to have a lot of respect for the person and obviously work boundaries.

⁓ are a thing. When you're at work, it's work. But it's also good to have someone that you can bounce off ideas and you can... Someone who can relate to some of your challenges and things like that. And then of course, when my son said he wanted to join, both of us look at ourselves and we're like,

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (07:59) Why did

you have that reaction?

Clare Taber (08:02) ⁓ Well, know, it's obviously it sets you up for success in your life. You know, it you know, I went back to school when I was 40 and was able to use my money from the military. ⁓ But, you know, it is a different lifestyle. And, ⁓ you know, it's it's definitely a big decision. ⁓

But he was an army guy for at least five Halloweens. So I think it was kind of destined. And it's kind of a part of you. When you're with military people, you just kind of have this unspoken bond. So we joke around because we're all hard of hearing. So you can tell military people because we're always yelling.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (08:57) Is that... Is that because you've been around a lot of noisy equipment in the role?

Clare Taber (08:57) Not angry, but yeah.

Yes, yeah, absolutely.

And thankfully, now I think the, you know, the hearing protection is much better. ⁓ But, you know, at the time, they just had those little yellow squishy things that, you know, were not wonderful. I, this past summer, I went out shooting with a friend and it was kind of fun just to do it, you know, target practice and things like that. So. ⁓

But yeah, it was, I feel like it was a long time ago, but you know, it's something that never leaves you.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (09:42) I think that the slightly universal or translatable thing in your story is that your father did that work and you did, and your son did that work and your husband. And I can relate to that a little bit, just because I did some work, so to speak, that my grandparents did. And I think that it's a very interesting decision just relating to any sort of

creativity or work or anything like that when your family did it. So it was really interesting to see that you did have that hesitation when your son was getting into it. And as I may as well just ask, did you originally hope that your son would do something completely different?

Clare Taber (10:28) ⁓ Well, he is interesting. He's kind of an old soul. ⁓ You know, when he was out playing with kids, always thought he was the coach. And my kids were five years apart. So basically, he kind of grew up almost like an only child because his brother was already, you know, in school.

And so he was around a lot of adults. I didn't work full-time for quite a bit until so, and he had quite the vocabulary. So, ⁓ between myself, my mother, ⁓ his other grandmother, ⁓ he spoke like an adult. So, as far as relating to other children and things like that. ⁓

So yeah, he was very inquisitive. ⁓ You know, I was kind of a precocious child myself, so always asking questions. So he was really funny. You know, thankfully, they're Siri now, so you can ask Siri a thousand questions. So he'd be in the backseat of the car asking Siri all these ridiculous questions about like the solar system and you know, what mountain is the highest, you know.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (11:51) Everything.

Clare Taber (11:51) So, yeah, so he, yeah, was just, you know, so I knew he was going to do something different and he's the type of person that when he puts his mind to something, he is all in. So that's what he, you know, decided. And he said eventually he wants to become a police officer, like a canine officer. He has, you know, a passion for animals. So.

So yeah, we'll see where that goes.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (12:23) It's so sweet. I wanted to move along to two things at the same time, because I saw that you worked in legal administration a lot, but now you've been writing about spirituality. I'm curious about your journey between these three things. You went from military to legal admin, which kind of makes sense into the spirituality. And this seems to be quite recent. What happened?

Clare Taber (12:51) Okay, so let's see. So I guess I should preface this that, you know, I grew up in an Irish Catholic family. ⁓ You know, we had religious education, ⁓ but ⁓ either further, my mother was actually a nun for at least 15 years before she got married. ⁓ So I grew up with, you know, the

structured religious environment, ⁓ did all religious classes and things like that. And you kind of take it all in, and sometimes when you're a high schooler, you kind of start rebelling and things like that. So as far as like going to church on Sundays and things like that, I didn't necessarily continue that, but I've always kind of felt like a spiritual like.

presence, you know, in my life, I always feel like there's a reason why things happen. ⁓ You know, I've definitely gone through quite a few obstacles in my life. And, you know, sometimes when you're in the middle of it, you don't see, you know, why is this happening? What is the purpose of this? What's that? boy, how much time do you have?

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (14:05) happened.

What happened?

I normally aim for

about an hour, you've got time.

Clare Taber (14:16) Okay, so let's see, I lost a baby before I had my oldest, ⁓ I was five months pregnant and ⁓ it was interesting because I wasn't married and I had to tell my Irish Catholic ⁓ parents that I was pregnant and was not married. So I think my father did about 20 laps around the house.

And my mom, of course, was like, you know, because I was engaged, she's like, well, you've got to move up the wedding. And I was like, No, I'm just going to have a baby at the wedding. so it took them a while to kind of wrap their brain around it. And, know, and then unfortunately, I was 20 weeks along and just my, you know, the baby wait or whatever, you know, so.

You know, went through, you know, grieving process with my husband, know, my fiancé at the time. And, you know, and then, you know, my marriage kind of like dissolved, you know, we were married for 18 years. ⁓ And, you know, it was it was definitely not ⁓ an easy split. I will say that. So.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (15:42) So that's the husband

that you met in work.

Clare Taber (15:45) Correct, yeah.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (15:47) Yeah, when did you

break up? Was that recently? Just wondering.

Clare Taber (15:51) well,

Now it's been 10 years, so it's interesting, ⁓ cause we're actually really good friends now. So I think we just decided like we're much better off not being married. ⁓ yeah, it got to the point where my older son was like, can you guys please get divorced? ⁓ Yeah. Excuse me.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (15:58) Cheers.

So sometimes it is better for the children if

you get what you need.

Clare Taber (16:19) Right. You know, I think we, you know, we grew and then we changed and, you know, I hate saying it, kind of got what we needed out of the relationship. ⁓ and, you know, it took some time to get to the point where we're at, you know, where we could be friends. Kind of COVID brought our family together because my son had come, you know, back.

school he brought his girlfriend and then my younger son decided he was gonna stay with dad just for space reasons so every Sunday we would have you know barbecues or brunch and things like that so ⁓ and then ⁓ you know it was interesting you know it got to the point where he would tell me his relationship stories and you know when he broke up with a girlfriend and you know I was consoling him and and ⁓

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (17:17) Look at best friends.

Clare Taber (17:17) yeah,

yeah, yeah, so yeah, I brought like her, ⁓ you know, a Christmas present and things like that. So yeah, so you kind of like let a lot of the, you know, the baggage go and ⁓ so, so yeah, kind of, you know, full circle with that and, you know, some of the other things that have occurred in my life. ⁓

You just kind of look back at them and you're like, ⁓ OK. That's why that happened. I was in a pretty bad car accident. I went back to school at 40. And ⁓ on my way to school, I was in a car accident. And I was actually studying to be a paralegal. And ⁓ my professor was wonderful because I was so mad that I was late for school.

Totalled away my car and got a ride to school and my professor pulled up on the screen and was like, these are all the things you need to do. You need to hire a lawyer. need to make sure your hospital bills get to this and this so you can make sure you're taken care of. ⁓ so I did, I hired a lawyer, a nice older gentleman, and he was when I was ⁓

meeting with him, I had my legal notepad with all my notes in it. And he was kind of having trouble writing. And I said, well, you know, if I'm going to school to be a paralegal, if you ever need help. And he's like, ⁓ you know, I'm all set, but thank you. And then a couple of weeks later, we were dropping off pictures of the scene where the accident was. And he had asked.

You know, my husband at the time, he said, is your wife still looking for work? And he's like, yeah. And so I actually wound up working at that law firm for years. So, know, you never know why things happen. You know, and of course, at the time, you know, I was sad about my car and, you know, had to go to physical therapy and everything. But they were he was such a wonderful gentleman. And, you know, the family was wonderful. He actually helped me get.

my next job, which I worked at a big law firm in Boston. I worked there for six years. Things happened for a reason. As far as working at the law firm, I blame that on my mother. She loved crime shows.

I think I've seen every Law and Order episode. You know, can't wait for them to start again. And Murder, She Wrote, ⁓ like Perry Mason, all those shows.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (20:17) Those are

awesome. But the thing I love about this story is that you had a personal crisis, the accident, and then you used that as an opportunity because you didn't have to necessarily mention to that lawyer that, by the way, you are in school to eventually work in the legal profession. And you used a crisis as an opportunity there.

Clare Taber (20:45) Yeah, so that's kind of, you know, kind of how I try to live my life now. As I said, you can't really see when you're in the middle of things, you know, how or why things happen. And, you know, of course, some things can be devastating. But sometimes when you look back, you know, six months, a year, sometimes even years later, you're like, wow, you know, had I not gone through that, I never would have.

You know, met those people, I never would have been in that situation. And, ⁓ you know, I joke around that, you know, if you can't pimp yourself out, who can you pimp out? So I'm all about selling yourself. ⁓ know, so I'm cheap. You can edit that. That's why I'm sorry. I just mean, as far as selling yourself like a few years.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (21:29) to edit that line if you don't mind. I mean, I understand what you say.

We need to, what

you're saying is we need to promote ourselves in this day and age because if you don't promote yourself, then who will?

Clare Taber (21:45) Yes. Yes.

Right. So I, you know, I'm always, you know, chatting with people I meet on the street and you just never know who you're going to meet. And I love to travel. So and I feel like when you travel, you like the world just seems so small and, know, you make connections and things like that. So, you know, I feel like kind of like my life purpose now is ⁓

you know, hopefully the kind of help people with my stories, you know, hopefully bring people together, maybe help people find what their purpose and, you know, kind of overcome obstacles and things like that. So, so, yeah, and, you know, so, yeah, you know, some people on networking, I'm just, you know, chatty, we went to go see an aunt in Ireland and travelled and ⁓

where she lives in County Cork, and she said that when we went to the Blarney Castle, she said, You don't need to kiss the Blarney Stone. She said, "You already have the gift of gab. yeah."

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (23:05) That has happened with some of the podcast guests. They're saying that there's an addiction to talking or they're being extra chatty. they think that podcasting really, really helps those of us who love to talk. And so I can tell that you've sparked conversations with people, and that has led you in a good direction. So I saw that you wrote a book. Let's skip straight to.

Clare Taber (23:13) Yeah.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (23:33) How did you end up writing a book after all of this?

Clare Taber (23:37) Okay, so, you know, I've always been one to kind of, ⁓ you know, have all these ideas in my head. Some people call it ADD, you know, I constantly have things going. So how I've decided to kind of manage my thoughts and everything, I love to do lists and things like that. So I kind of keep in my note section in my phone. So

And sometimes it's just how I process things. And I believe that kind of journaling can help you process things when you look back and you kind of laugh at yourself when you're in the middle of maybe a relationship crisis or things like that. And you're like, my world is over. And then you're like, oh, wow, OK. Maybe it wasn't the end of the world.

And so yeah, I was always kind of keeping notes and, you know, talking to coworkers or whatever. My friends, they're always like, "You should write a book." You should just, you know, all your little crazy stories and things like that. And so, you know, I recently moved out here to California and decided, you know, maybe I should

you know, do things like that I want to do, like my passion. You know, my youngest son just joined the army, you know, graduated high school. And so I decided to, you know, move out here near my older son. And ⁓ and I was like, I'm going to do it. I'm going to write that book. So, you know, I did find, you know, a ghost writing team because I said I always have these.

ideas going but I had an outline and you know so they kind of like helped me get everything you know pen to paper and you know there was a lot of like back and forth and things like that. ⁓

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (25:47) How did you find Ghost Writing Team?

Clare Taber (25:50) So it's an interesting story. So I did Google it and I found them, I will not mention their name because ⁓ we're actually in like a little bit of a dispute because they were supposed to be doing marketing for my book and they kind of have not. ⁓ But I'm choosing to turn that into an opportunity for me to market myself.

and connecting with people online and things like that. ⁓ So what I have to say to someone if they are interested is just do a ton of research and talk to people about it. Because there are a lot of companies that maybe aren't quite reputable. And even the reviews online are something that might not be real.

So, but the good thing is we did get the book. I finished the book and you know, I'm pretty happy with it. I'll show it to you. So, ⁓ so yeah, here it is. So, success through spirituality. ⁓ So I wanted something to kind of be like a workbook. So there's actually at the end of each chapter, I kind of like pose questions to people, ⁓ you know, depending on

what I wrote about, you know, like, is there a situation where, you know, you didn't see what the outcome was going to be that maybe created an opportunity. So, ⁓ you know, there's lines where people can, you know, jot down their thoughts and then, you know, I decided to do little, you know, affirmation colouring pages.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (27:45) Just be

mindful.

Clare Taber (27:47) Right. ⁓ Basically, I was like, just don't want to like trauma dump on people. Maybe give them a little break on that. You know, some of my stories are, you know, funny and things like that. ⁓ But, you know, some of the stuff is, you know, you know, it's a little heavy and, ⁓ you know, I kind of chose to be, you know, raw and open and.

I tend to be a positive person. As I said, I try to see why things happen. so kind of like that's what brings me to my connection to spirituality. And I feel like as I've grown up, as I've had children, that I've definitely kind of feel like a calling and more communication.

meditating definitely helps and getting out in nature and things like that. So yeah, that's kind of what brings me to Wyrmendt.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (28:55) It's so sweet.

And it's great because you had those challenges of the miscarriage and the breakup, and you found ways to cope, and you had the spiritual practices, the meditating and so on. And that's your personal practice. And also even relocating and deciding you are going to

live your life and dive in with things you are interested in. You're sharing your personal experience and as much as it's important for people to also learn from the experts, and they do need to get medical advice or legal advice, things like that. I think that people can end up seeing an author or a speaker or anything like that as their best friend at a distance.

They can, it can feel like they are learning from someone who has been in a similar situation, and that can help people to feel a bit less alone. It can show one of the possible ways that life can end up because after hearing from people who've done work in particular areas, then it's so important for anyone to find some common ground, find their people. So

You're sharing personal experiences that people have had in similar ways in any parts of the world.

Clare Taber (30:23) Yeah,

Yeah, definitely. I, you know, I kind of say, hopefully I learned all the lessons so other people don't have to. I don't know if I did it right or anything, but, know, as I say, you know, you just kind of have to learn to like pivot and, ⁓ you know, I've come, you know, I feel like I'm pretty good at it now. ⁓ So, you know, at 50, you know, I feel like, you know, I've

I've lived a lot of lives, but I also feel like I have a to ⁓ live, a lot more to learn. And yeah, it's exciting ⁓ having a new opportunity and things like that, getting to explore your passions. And it's a little scary.

jumping in, taking a leap of faith. But, ⁓ you know, I think when you work for yourself, you, you know, every day is like, you know, what can I learn? And, you know, I love to be creative. I've, you know, have fun, you know, making some like swag now. So, you know, just hats and, you know, water bottles and things like that. So. ⁓

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (31:38) What's this?

Clare Taber (31:45) So yeah, I'm kind of like exploring that kind of like creative side and you know, who knows where we'll lead.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (31:52) It sounds like you're a lesson to everybody is to dive in and try new things, and you are holding your audience's hand as you try new things.

Clare Taber (32:03) Yeah, think even with like, when my kids were getting older, it's okay to have like little failings. You kind of have to figure things out for yourself and you're like, you're there to catch them. But if you don't try new things, if you don't ⁓ explore your passions or new things, like I'm joining a pickleball league tomorrow.

So we'll see. We'll see where that goes.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (32:34) Okay.

I definitely want to focus on the main life lessons, but I have to ask. I think I might have seen that in TV a little bit, but for those who don't know what's involved in that game, just curious.

Clare Taber (32:46) Yeah.

Okay, so I had to Google the rules and stuff and what to wear and all that. ⁓ So it's pretty much like on a tennis court ⁓ and it's a different kind of paddle. It almost looks like a ping pong paddle, mine's square. And then you're almost using like a Whiffle ball. ⁓

But for me, was like, it's a new way to get some cardio in. ⁓ And since I'm new to the area, ⁓ I thought it'd be great to meet people. I was walking my dog and picking up dinner and wound up chatting with someone who was actually from Australia. And so she was the one who was like, "You should join us." So I'm always chatting with people on the street.

Ha

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (33:46) There's a lesson as well, and I want to get back to another topic in a moment, but there's a lesson. If anyone is moving to an area, try any activity at all to meet new people because I believe we are social creatures. Do you agree?

Clare Taber (33:57) Yeah.

Absolutely, yeah. I mean, I do talk to myself a lot, but it's also good to, you know, bounce things off, you know, and my pets, they're like, stop singing to me, I make songs about them, but. ⁓

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (34:08) Hahaha!

Okay, but the healthy option is to talk to other people. ⁓ We're trying totally different things, like a new sport, to meet people and also to keep active. So, the basic healthy things, as much as you're doing those big goals, publishing a book, it's important to also have those personal goals as well to look after yourself.

Clare Taber (34:20) Right, right. Yeah.

Yeah, definitely. ⁓ you know, it's a great way to network with people. And, you know, who knows what the next chapter will bring or the next exciting activity ⁓ or injury will be.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (35:05) But you're right, you meet the most interesting people anywhere.

Clare Taber (35:09) Yeah, no, definitely. yeah, her name's, you know, Susie, which is funny because I didn't get her last name or I didn't even get like her like Instagram handle or anything. She's like, just come, just come. And I was like, all right. You know, she's like, just look it up online. And so I did. And so I don't even know if she knows I'm coming, but I was just like, you know, I just felt like inspired by our conversation. And yeah, so.

You, my ex-husband, you know, would always say to me, he's like, you know, you don't have to talk to everybody. ⁓

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (35:48) There's a question.

Did you ever have people telling you that you are talking too much? I don't believe in that sort of attitude, but I know that I had some people telling me over the years, "You're talking too much." This is all getting too intense. Settle down. Did you ever attract that sort of attitude?

Clare Taber (36:07) yeah, definitely. ⁓ Yeah, one of my professors for my litigation class told me on day one that I was not allowed to ask any more questions. He's like, you're done for the semester. Yeah, so I've always been like that. But I just feel like when you're chatting with people, ⁓

And I love to, you know, kind of like go deep, like, you know, not necessarily like surface level. ⁓ you know, I always joke around that I'm like the drunk friend that you meet at the party where, you know, they're like, you're my like drunk best friend, you know, like you just go deep and, ⁓ yeah, I just like to find out like, you know, what people are about and things like that. And, ⁓ yeah, you just, you know, learn a lot and

I literally meet people on the street every day and connect with them. I met someone else that is a smart woman entrepreneur, and we connected, and she gave me her website, I gave her mine, and at some point, we're gonna collaborate. So you just never know when you're talking to someone.

what the universe is going to bring you, know, to be a, you know, a soul connection that you don't know of and whether it's, you know, a friend or, you know, a love partner or whatever. So, yeah, so that's kind of how I live my life. But yes, all the time. Everyone says that I'm chatty.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (37:47) He froze up there.

Suzy, sorry, Claire? You're back.

Clare Taber (38:20) Yeah. Yeah.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (38:23)

I, I'm so sorry. So I don't know. I know that it will be a better recording once it comes through and I'll edit the bits because it's just freezing up a couple of times today. ⁓ internet connections, honestly, but, ⁓ but you're being so patient with that. And I love the, the lesson that you have of befriending people. I think that's really important because.

Clare Taber (38:39) yeah.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (38:52) My personal experience has been that I stumbled upon people online or when I needed some work for something and then it turned out that some people had these amazing backgrounds and really connected opportunities or people are just creating something new. And I think that it's really fun when

You don't know who you're meeting and that's probably a lesson in itself because you're saying hi to anyone. And I think that it's important to not judge a book by its cover.

Clare Taber (39:26) Right. Yeah, I joke around that I'm a little bit like if you've ever seen the movie Elf ⁓ with Will Ferrell. I'm a little bit of like a Christmas elf. So sometimes it gets me in trouble and sometimes I'm just trying to have fun and hopefully spread a little joy and. ⁓

you know, year-round holiday joy.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (39:59) Well, that's probably a question we need to explore there because it sounds like maybe in work or in life, befriending everybody and trying to be everybody's best friend. We know that we can't trust everybody and some people have various intentions and motives. So what can you say after this many decades about balancing wanting to just care and share for everybody, but also

Clare Taber (40:02) Okay.

Right.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (40:27) needing to make sure that you're okay and that a situation is okay.

Clare Taber (40:32) So yeah, I've definitely learned some life lessons. I guess I like to call myself a former people pleaser, also like an empath. ⁓ so I like feel people's energies, feel people's emotion, and I always ⁓ give people the benefit of the doubt. ⁓ so yeah, sometimes it gets me in trouble because yeah, sometimes they're

you people who don't necessarily have like the truest of intentions ⁓ and that kind of see you, you know, that way and think, you know, they say they're, you know, the expression, you know, don't mistake my kindness for weakness. So, so, yeah, so kind of after learning a few lessons, ⁓ you know, I think as an empath,

For some reason narcissists, you know are drawn to so

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (41:34) my goodness, I knew there was

a reason why you found me. Okay. I just thought so joining so much. So being empathetic and just feeling so much deep care for everybody. It attracted some narcissists in your direction.

Clare Taber (41:38) Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Definitely, yeah. ⁓ Yeah, and it takes a long time to not only realize that because a lot of them are wearing masks, a lot of them are like covert narcissists. And on the outside, they're wonderful family people and things like that. ⁓ Meanwhile, they are not necessarily rooting for your success. ⁓

And some will go to great lengths to not help you enjoy success. So yeah, I've definitely learned some life lessons the hard way, setting boundaries, noticing those red flags. And you know.

really kind of like checking in with yourself and like, you know, how does this person make me feel? You know, when you leave them, like, do you feel drained? You know, are they someone that's kind of like always taking from you? And, you know, or someone that, as I said, is just not championing your success, you know.

I was friends with someone and we went out and then the next day she bought the same exact outfit that I had on, which can be flattering. ⁓ But it was just, it was like other things like she bought the car that I had been talking about wanting and like, just things like that. And it got to the point where I'm just like, I kind of have to end this friendship because ⁓

it was, it got quite toxic. You know, like interested in like the people that I was in a relationship with. Yeah.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (43:58) I wanted your life.

Clare Taber (44:00) Yeah, it got a little weird. And as an empath, you're just like, it's flattering and things like that. ⁓

And yeah, so, you know, I've definitely learned, you know, the hard lessons, you know, relationships that I was in for six years. ⁓ They, ⁓ again, you know, on the outside, it looks like they're, they're rooting for you. ⁓ And then they're really not. ⁓ And ⁓

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (44:41) word that they

really wanting? Are they trying to take advantage of the kindness? Are they? ⁓

Clare Taber (44:48) So, ⁓ I've had relationships with a few people who have had depression. And so, my father was actually hospitalized for depression. And I remember visiting him in the hospital when I was in grade school and you go and he wasn't hooked up to machines and he didn't have a cast on his leg. And so you're kind of like, why are you here?

you know, kind of learned, you know, a little bit about, you know, mental illness and things like that. So, you know, down the line, I was in relationships with people ⁓ who had depression. And, you know, it's tough that you really want to help people. And so, you know, and, you know, and maybe it was like taking advantage of a little bit. ⁓ And then at some point you have to understand like

I'm giving too much of myself. I'm losing myself. And meanwhile, if this person is not actively seeking help for themselves, I'm not a psychologist. I can only do so much. ⁓ so, yeah, you kind of have to get to a point where you just choose yourself. And you're like, I have to self-preserve. And ⁓ it's hard because.

as empaths, you know, we're always wanting to help people you feel people's emotions you want to, you know, cure them. And, you know, it's taken me to this point to realize it's not my job to cure them. You know, maybe in some sort of way I am like a spiritual healer or something like that, but

you have to set boundaries and you have to kind of fill your own cup before you fill out anyone else's cup. And, you know, there was a long time that I would be, you know, kind of running on empty, you know, filling everyone else's cups. And, yeah, so that's kind of like what this new beginning is about for me is, you know, filling my cup first and then hopefully, you know, I'm able to spread the joy.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (47:12) filling your cup, you need to look after yourself and the desire to look after people. You mentioned at least before we started recording that he got into the military because you, so it was as a medic to try to, so as a medic, you did that because you wanted to help people. guessing the medic, sorry, I'm not from that space. So it's handy in case anyone else is listening and it's not from that space. So I'm guessing that the medic helps.

Clare Taber (47:27) Yes.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (47:40) the people in the military to be okay.

Clare Taber (47:43) Yes. Yeah, so.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (47:45) said that.

Clare Taber (47:48) So yeah, it started early.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (47:50) Yeah, that desire

to help. You can see that common thread. And it was a while when you weren't working full time when you were parenting, there was less work. So we're seeing this theme of sacrificing, sacrificing yourself to help the workers in the military, sacrificing yourself to look after your family and not work and earn money as much. then later in your career, perhaps

sacrificing your your identity or sacrificing your peace of mind when other people are taking advantage of your kindness. I think that's really relatable.

Clare Taber (48:31) Right.

Yeah, and you know, you know, it can go the other way where people are like, well, now you're being selfish. And, you know, so like that like cuts deep. then you're like, no, it's not being selfish. Like you have to take care of yourself. You know, my mom, you know, died pretty young. And, you know, I'm a product of her where she always was helping people. ⁓

And my brother is handicapped. She actually went to Washington, T.C. to get legislature passed to help handicap kids and build ramps for schools. she started a foundation called Understanding Handicap. So yeah, I think I get it from her. But yeah, she...

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (49:20) sophisticated.

Clare Taber (49:32) so sad. She actually went to work and had a heart attack and collapsed on the doorstep. Thankfully she survived at the time. But yeah, it's something to think about. It's like how much are we giving of ourselves and if you're not doing the self-care and saying no is self-care, I believe. ⁓

And so I'm definitely a lot more choosy about who I spend my time with because if they're not filling up my cup as well, ⁓ then yeah, then I have so many other hobbies.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (50:23) Absolutely.

And I love how all these little details are coming out in your story as we delve deeper because realizing that your mother created a foundation advocating for people with disabilities. That, I think that sort of theme comes up in other places, especially where I'm living, people are very interested in that space. And so the one thing I'll ask, because

Clare Taber (50:47) Mm-hmm.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (50:52) the focus here is on self care. I'm wondering, what did you see in observing your mother's advocacy and how perhaps, is it sometimes a bit of an uphill battle? Is it something that takes a long time? And how do you all choose which issues you push on and which ones you let go? And then how do you look after yourself through all of that?

Clare Taber (51:19) So ⁓ I definitely ⁓ inherited my mother's stubbornness. ⁓ Hopefully I use it to my advantage. ⁓ She was a very soft, sweet woman. She wore dresses all the time, cleaned the house in her dress. And my favorite thing about her is she always had her to-do list on Saturdays of cleaning. And my dad kind of took care of the outside of the house and she took care of the inside.

They had a beautiful relationship, but he would ask if she could do something in particular. And she's like, well, it's not on this week's to-do list. I'll put it on next week. yeah, she had a little bit of a fire in her. And I know when she went to talk in Washington, she was definitely met with a lot of...

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (51:59) NUTS

Clare Taber (52:18) obstacles and things like that. you really, ⁓ she was very good with, you know, connecting with people who could help her and things like that. And, you know, it's interesting, I kind of took a little bit of her ⁓ passion and ⁓ I helped to get ⁓ ramps for on the beaches. ⁓ So I was in

⁓ a little town called Rockport, Massachusetts. And next to it, it was a big beach, Good Harbor Beach in Gloucester. And I noticed there was just one like wooden ramp that was rickety. And, you know, as I said, my brother is in a wheelchair and, you know, I've done a lot of charity work with wounded veterans and things like that. And

I just happened to see on Facebook something called a Moby Mat and it's ⁓ made of Kevlar, which is military material. And they were showing you could drive a military Humvee over it, but it's also removable. ⁓ But you can put wheelchairs and strollers and beach wagons and things like that. So I ⁓ just sent an email to, I think it was the mayor.

and you know took a little bit you know maybe did some follow-up emails and he's like well you know don't really handle that but you know this you know so he sent you know me to someone else and so I sent an email to them and they're like well I don't really deal with that and sent me to someone else and so finally someone was like yeah they're like I actually know someone that has funding for like accessibility

but they don't know what to do with the funds and I could connect you two. ⁓ so basically, you know, I connected with that person and I was like, well, I'm happy to do all the legwork since you secured the funding. And so, yeah, it took a little bit, but we were able to get, you know, a beach mat, you know, we did the measurements and things like that. ⁓

for the beach and the public was so happy about it that I think it was a year or two later they bought three more and more beach wheelchairs and then they bought them for the other beaches and you know it's definitely like an uphill battle. You know I even tried it in my own town and I got shot down three times and ⁓

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (55:01) What?

It's a ramp. How do we end up with obstacles for something as simple as getting a ramp in?

Clare Taber (55:09) Well, it's interesting because they had something called Awesome Rockport, which was like an $1,000 grant. And I was able to price it where they were going to get it under that. And I literally pitched it multiple times. And they loved the idea. And sometimes it was because they chose somebody else who had a great idea too. So it wasn't necessarily like they're like, no, that's horrible. We're not going to do that. But the last time I went,

They're like, well, we really feel like this is something the town should be doing and not this grant foundation. And they're like, can you send everything to the town? And so I did. And then basically went back and forth a little bit and nothing became of it. So at that point, I was kind of moving. I was like, I've

given all I can, I've given them all the information. ⁓ It's very sad that they don't want to help senior citizens and people in wheelchairs. It was ⁓ a town that ⁓ has a high senior citizen, but it's ⁓ tourist. And I was like, even if you do it for marketing, basically you can Google

you know, handicap accessible beaches and you're there. So it's like you bring in more tourists. So it's just like, you know, whatever the reason, but so yes.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (56:46) So it would have been an opportunity

and they didn't follow through anyway. And your lesson to yourself and to others is that sometimes you can only do what you can and give people the information and they're either going to do something with the information or they won't.

Clare Taber (56:55) Right. Right.

But yeah, I was very happy that Gloucester basically took my idea and ran with it. And I even had friends sending me the newspaper article and they were excited. So that was exciting. So you just stay positive and do what you can do. And when I moved out here in December,

I actually connected with the accessibility person for Santa Monica. I had a couple of meetings with them. So who knows what's going to happen with that? Then the fires happened, and that was a lot. So I was like, OK, I'll give it a little bit of time and follow up. So yeah, you kind of have to be the squeaky wheel a little bit.

and do legwork. But then also, I get to do things that bring me my personal joy too. So I can fill my cup a little bit more, and then I can go back. So that's kind of how I work. I go out, do my thing, and then I come back and then go out and do more.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (58:16) We have discovered so much from this because initially on the surface, it looked like the main thing you were doing was exploring your spirituality, and you are, but you are doing that and exploring new activities to look after yourself as you're actually, I had no idea until this conversation that you're actually advocating to create very simple physical accessibility in areas.

Clare Taber (58:42) Yeah, so I just, you know, I think at some point you kind of realize like you can't do it all. And so if I can like plant the seeds and other people, you know, like maybe that's what I'm supposed to be doing is, you know, like I can help other people grow. ⁓ And, you know, that's kind of like why I wrote the book and things like that, you know, who knows where, you know, maybe you can come on my podcast.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (59:12) I'd love to. And would you like to send a link later for the association, not the association, sorry, the foundation.

Clare Taber (59:12) Hahaha! ⁓

Sure, absolutely.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (59:22) Awesome. And share anything I want to know about the foundation. I wanted to know about your book, and I would love to talk on your podcast. It's really interesting because I've been doing this podcast for a few weeks, but it means it's mainly about everybody else's story. So it's really nice if there's any chance to share my story later, but this is all about you.

Clare Taber (59:43) Absolutely, I

would love that. I would love that. And you know, I do have a little bit of an off button on that. I am a good listener.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (59:55) Actually, these conversations, they teach us. It sounds like you might've experienced that as well, because even I think settling into podcasting, although I sort of relate what the guest is talking about to something from my own chunk of the world to join the dots and see how it could connect with everybody. We have to really stop and listen a lot when we're hosting a podcast.

Clare Taber (1:00:01) Uh-huh.

Right.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (1:00:22) That's a very interesting skill for a chatty person.

Clare Taber (1:00:23) Yeah.

Yeah, so ⁓ I read somewhere about podcasts that you're supposed to do like a majority on your own. And I was like, well, I don't want to do like, you know, I'm with myself all the time. Like I want to, you know, meet other people and see what they're doing. ⁓ You know, so, so yes, I would love to have you. So. ⁓

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (1:00:52) Thank you so much.

Clare Taber (1:00:53) So yeah, I decided, I think I was gonna call it, ⁓ what are you doing here? basically it's kind of like a purpose-driven life, like what is your purpose? ⁓ And some people are still finding that out. So yeah, I plan on kind of getting it off the ground in October, so ⁓ you can be one of my first guests.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (1:01:00) Okay.

Just dive in.

Clare Taber (1:01:23) Yeah.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (1:01:23) Look, just dive in. I would record with you anytime because you have the tech, have some sort of microphone. I found my microphone on Facebook Marketplace and you need any program to record on and then you're set to go. So whenever you want to, it's so simple and easy to do it. And I think we'll have so much to talk about. I think the common ground that I've seen in you is that

Clare Taber (1:01:34) Okay.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (1:01:49) I would love to call my episode with you nine lives and you're nearly two and a half decades older than me, but you had all these different phases in life. And I think one of the things that I loved exploring with you is pivoting and switching from one chunk of life to another and bouncing back from adversities. So whether it be breakups or something else. And I think that that's a big lesson.

to learn because especially, I think what I've experienced being in my 30s and also meeting people in their 40s, they might have had a while of being one particular type of person and then something happens and then everything is shifting. Whether you're going into a totally different industry and I think I learned that from you a lot. You went from the military to League Ladmin to now exploring spirituality and I think that that leap, it's simple for us.

Clare Taber (1:02:35) Right.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (1:02:47) The gutsy ones who just dive in with things, but I think for some listeners, it can be beyond their comfort zone to figure out what to do next.

Clare Taber (1:02:50) Right.

Yeah, I feel like anyone can have a podcast, but to make it interesting and something that people can connect with. ⁓ And as I said, ⁓ I feel like I'm still learning all the time, even at this stage in my life. And who knows what the next pivot is going to be? Maybe a nose ring. I was thinking about a nose ring.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (1:03:25) Like.

I would not have guessed that, but I was wondering, have you ever been a motivational or inspirational speaker?

Clare Taber (1:03:30) Yeah.

I have not. Mean, I think I've spoken to small crowds, but more on a casual basis.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (1:03:47) That counts. It totally does.

Clare Taber (1:03:50) But definitely not on like a broad scale. ⁓ It might be hard to like, you know, if they only give me a time limit just to... ⁓

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (1:04:00) That's

Okay, we all need a challenge in life. That can be the challenge to then, actually, that's a good thing to mention because when you are a very chatty person, the challenge isn't getting yourself to talk, it's, it's condensing your message into a smaller time. And that's to happen whether you're having a meeting for your advocacy or whether you're having

Clare Taber (1:04:03) Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Right.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (1:04:28) ⁓ talk about your book or anything like that, there's normally a set time, well time is finite no matter what anyway.

Clare Taber (1:04:38) Right. That's what I believe. I feel like I'm on like, you know, many lives.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (1:04:40) So that's, yeah, yeah.

I know the feeling, but look, this has been amazing to talk and we've been so chatty and it has delved into so many themes and stories and thank you so much for sharing. Thanks, Claire.

Clare Taber (1:04:59) Thank you. Thank you, I appreciate

it. And then we'll chat more. Have a great day.

Summary

In this engaging conversation, Desiree Simone shares her experiences living in Florida, her love for the spooky season, and the importance of community and authentic connections. She discusses her journey into podcasting, the challenges of finding guests, and the significance of personal stories in creating engaging content. Desiree emphasises the need for advocacy and how to show up for others, while also providing valuable tips for aspiring podcasters. The conversation is filled with warmth, humour, and insightful advice on navigating life and building meaningful relationships.

Show Notes Keywords

podcasting, community, authenticity, cocktails, personal development, spooky season, connection, advocacy, self-care, storytelling

Takeaways

Desiree enjoys the beauty of Florida despite its challenges.

The spooky season brings joy and creativity for Desiree.

Cocktails play a significant role in fostering connections.

Community is essential for personal growth and authenticity.

Desiree's podcast covers a wide range of topics.

Starting a podcast doesn't require perfection; just begin.

Finding the right guests is crucial for engaging in conversations.

Podcast length can vary based on the vibe of the conversation.

Personal stories make discussions relatable and impactful.

Advocacy can take many forms, including simply asking how to help.

Titles

Embracing the Spooky Season: A Conversation with Desiree Simone

The Power of Community and Authenticity in Podcasting

Sound bites

"You need to find that tribe of people."

"Those aren't real friendships."

"How can I show up for you?"

Chapters

00:00 Living in Florida: Sunshine and Spooky Season

02:50 Cocktails and Conversations: The Bartender's Perspective

05:45 The Importance of Community and Authentic Connections

08:44 Diverse Topics: Personal Development and Real Conversations

11:31 The Journey to Podcasting: From Blog to Broadcast

14:35 Finding Your Voice: The Podcasting Experience

17:38 Choosing Guests: Authentic Conversations and Audience Engagement

20:36 Building Connections: The Podcasting Community

23:32 Exploring Difficult Topics: Death, Grief, and Healing

26:26 Advocacy and Standing Up for Others

32:42 Championing Advocacy and Authenticity

34:34 The Power of Personalised Support

36:21 The Importance of Asking

38:40 The Value of Presence and Silence

40:54 Navigating Podcasting with Flexibility

43:54 Finding the Right Conversation Flow

45:54 The Art of Engaging Guests

49:27 Creating a Relaxed Atmosphere

55:10 Inclusivity in Events and Gatherings

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (00:01)

Desiree Simone. Hello.

Desiree Simone (00:04)

Hello. We're gonna have so much fun.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (00:06)

We chatted before we stopped. This

is fun! We've been chatting a bit already, but how are you doing?

Desiree Simone (00:14)

I'm doing well. How are you?

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (00:17)

I'm all right. The first thing I wanted to ask you about is how you are enjoying life in Florida.

Desiree Simone (00:26)

Well, you know, we talked a little bit about this before recording. ⁓ You said, "How is everything", and "How are you?" And I said, well, know, Florida is falling apart, the state as a whole, but at the same time, the beach is lovely. So I do have that going for me, which is nice, but no, I'm really good. It is a beautiful day here and I really can't complain.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (00:30)

We did.

I think that the sunshine is a simple thing that everybody can appreciate. I had a few days of extreme sun over here, and aside from trying to prevent a bit of sunburn, it's just divine.

Desiree Simone (01:06)

It really is. Sometimes you definitely need it.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (01:10)

You really do. What else is happening right now? Before we delve into your story, what else is happening right now?

Desiree Simone (01:18)

Well, I think one of the biggest things is we're going into the burr months. So we're going into September, October, November, December. And the older I've gotten, the more I realise I'm very much that girl who lives for this time of year. We're starting to get rid of all the hot summer clothes. We're doing more things indoors. I get to experiment in the kitchen. But then also Halloween is a big deal for me.

So now we're going into like pre-spooky season. And then once we're in spooky season, like I'm the most obnoxious person in the world because I truly live for all elements of horror, Halloween and spookiness.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (02:03)

Is part of that a chance to dress up, decorate the place, celebrate? What else do you appreciate about this time of the year?

Desiree Simone (02:12)

You know, I'm very well-rounded with my spooky vibes. It's not just, you know, getting dressed up. It's not just doing the whole pumpkins. I am a big fan of horror movies. So I go like really in depth with horror films, but then I also want to go with my classics. I want my Nightmare Before Christmas. I want my Charlie Brown Great Pumpkin. But also around this time, you've got some really great series that are coming out, great movies, things that are streaming.

So I'm going to make some really great fun cocktails. I'm gonna pull out all of the soup recipes. I get to go to parties where I can dress up and then I get to watch some of my favorite films. Like it truly is one of my favourite times of the year.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (02:56)

cocktails are a theme for you. You mentioned you like a drink when you do your podcast and there's a cocktail at Halloween time. What are your favorite drinks and do you make them yourself?

Desiree Simone (03:08)

So I definitely make them myself. I'm a former bartender and a former food and beverage manager. So I have a very big, extensive bar background. Also, my specialties are whiskey and tequila. So anything in that wheelhouse, I kind of nerd out over it as well. So, normally, actually going back to the spooky season, there is a podcast that I follow, ⁓ Nightmare Before Film Street. And they do a whole...

preparation of films for the holiday. And they also encourage people to make themed cocktails, and they made a fabulous cocktail book related to horror films. So I am the kind of girl who any excuse for me to make a type of new cocktail, I will do it. And then, as far as my podcast is concerned, I usually have my go-to whiskey. We'll go back and forth with a couple of other things. But one of the things that I love about that and why I kind of got into that with the podcast,

as well as my coaching, is that as a former bartender, one of the things that you will always notice is that when people go to bars or when people are sitting at the bar, they inevitably want to talk to you. They want to unload. They want to talk about their day. They want to talk about their relationship. so bartenders become like de facto therapists. So I'm sitting here making you a really great martini. You're telling me why you want to break up with your boyfriend.

There's a lot of conversation, and then sometimes there's a lot of healing over tequila.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (04:38)

Interesting. The conversational side is something everybody can relate to, whether they drink alcohol or not. I know that recently I was going to a gathering where there was a bar and my foot was cramping up the moment I got there. And when you are around the right people, you can be honest and real and say, my foot is cramping up or something is happening today. I'm showing up as much as I can.

Desiree Simone (05:04)

Absolutely. And you know, one of the reasons why I love the podcast and the format that we have it in is that I always wanted it to feel as less stuffy as possible. And I wanted it to feel like, you you get together with your girlfriend, hey, you know, I don't know if you're free next Saturday, but I'd love to meet for brunch. I've got to catch you up on everything. And so over mimosas, you might talk about the frustrations that you're having at your job.

Or you might talk about, I'm thinking about doing IVF and I'm really scared. You might have these really big conversations. So granted, not everyone drinks, but it's that whole idea of community, whether you're sharing a meal together, I think it's just as important. And so that's the thing that I love about the community that I've created with the podcast and definitely the one that I've created with my coaching clients.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (05:55)

Amazing the sense of community, that's a form of self-care that we all need. I think we are all social creatures no matter who we are even if we're shy we need people in some way do you think so?

Desiree Simone (06:08)

Absolutely. I think there is an inherent need for us to find some form of connection. It's been given to us from birth. We do not come into this world alone. And not only is connection so important, but finding the connection where you feel your most authentic self. One of the things I talk about, and I have a huge tenant in my coaching program, is that you need to find that tribe of people

who allows you to be okay with being the most loud, bold, and authentic version of you. And the moment that you find people that you have to diminish yourself or shrink who you are or be less than, those are not the people you need to be around.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (06:50)

That's really encouraging because there are spaces where we're expected to be the opposite of how we are. Maybe diminish the creative side or the quirky side or whatever it might be, and then it feels like we're taking away part of ourselves, but when you find the right people, then you can you can let all the parts of yourself shine through.

Desiree Simone (07:16)

Absolutely. And I, my heart truly breaks for the people who I like to call them those conditional friendships where, you know, you can always rely on them for that really fun brunch or let's go to the movies or let's do all the fun things. But when things start to become difficult, when the going gets tough, you feel like you can't rely on those friendships, then those aren't real friendships. Those are not the people that you want to spend time with. And so

You wanna get less of those conditional friendships in your life and find the more true, authentic one.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (07:53)

Definitely. What sort of people, what sorts of people have you talked to on your podcast, and what sorts of stories have you heard so far?

Desiree Simone (08:04)

⁓ This is such a fun question because whenever I describe my podcast to people, they're like, What is it that you talk about? And I'm like, well, it's a boozy personal development podcast. And we literally talk about everything. And when I say everything, I truly do mean everything. ⁓ We talk about all the things that help you be a well-rounded, better individual. And that can be a lot of things that can be talking about.

Financial therapy that could be talking about divorce that can be talking about sex and intimacy that can be talking about religion that can be talking about ⁓ Narcissistic abuse like there's so many things that we've talked about and big and small the podcast range from really funny and light-hearted to I've cried with my guests and again kind of going back to that idea of

you call your girlfriend, you wanna get together for drinks and have that conversation. That's what happens when you are connecting with someone. The conversation might start off with, I'm feeling really insecure about this dress that I'm wearing. And next thing you know, you're both are talking about limiting beliefs that you might've had as a child when you realised that insecurity was put on you by your parents. Or you're really wanting to go into the dating scene, but like men just aren't, they're just.

jerks right now and they're just dogs, but all of sudden, you know, it's your coworker and she looks really attractive and now you're questioning things. Like that is a part of a human connection that those conversations can just be so wide and so open. So when I tell people like the conversations that I've had on the podcast and the people I've had on the podcast, I'm like, there really is no one particular topic that we try not to talk about.

because in all facets of what helps us be better, more real, raw, live, bold, authentic individual, there are gonna be so many facets of what makes us unique. And I wanna be able to talk about all of them.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (10:06)

Right.

So your focus is on personal experience, and I appreciate that so much because as much as we can look up to all the titles and degrees and so on that other people can have, that can get us so far, but those personal experiences and the very real stories especially the ones that we wouldn't

Desiree Simone (10:13)

And I appreciate it.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (10:36)

tell everybody all the time. Those ones are the ones that give us context in how we work with other people and how we relate to the world. We end up understanding other people more by hearing those stories. I'm wondering, how did you get started in podcasting?

Desiree Simone (10:51)

So it's actually really funny. I have to give credit to my ex as a matter of fact. So, and this is also a perfect story on defeating limiting beliefs. So before the podcast was my blog, which I started in 2011. I started the blog as a way of healing after my divorce. I was married very briefly, not even a year.

But it was a really, really hard separation and a very emotionally difficult divorce. So, you know, early 2000s, I think everybody was on the blogging train, and so I decided to do that as well. And so the blog really became like a form of therapy for me. But then I had my girlfriends who were reaching out asking questions, and we were talking about dating and relationships and sex and what's going on online and...

You know, this is the start of Plenty of Fish at Match.com. So there was a lot to talk about. So then it became more of like advice. ⁓ I've always just granted being an only child, I've always had this big sister vibe, I guess. ⁓ And so that was the directions that the blog originally went to, excuse me. So I did that for several years, ghostwriting on some other blogs.

The blog got picked up on some websites and did really, really well. But around the time of surprise, surprise COVID, I was with my partner at the time, and I'd been telling him how I've been wanting to do a podcast for so long, but I just didn't think it was the right time. I didn't think I had a good voice, meaning I didn't think I had one unique enough for people to listen to. I'm going to be talking about the same thing that everyone else talks about.

I don't have the right equipment. I want to have the right setup. And he was just like, well, why don't you just start? Just start the podcast, however it looks. And it's so ironic that he pushed me in that direction because ultimately that's where I began the pivot, not only with the podcast, but with my own coaching. And so shortly after COVID, or kind of like in the, the end of COVID for us here, ⁓ 21, yeah, ⁓ we, he and I did the podcast together.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (13:05)

21, 22.

Desiree Simone (13:11)

Originally, it was called Break Bottles, Not Hearts. And it was basically he and I conversations that we would have together around dating and relationships. And again, he also has a boozy background like me. So he and I would talk over whiskey, and we honestly started out, no lie, in my backyard, voice notes on my phone. Like that was how the first part of the podcast came out. And I kind of sort of cringed.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (13:39)

And that's what it

means for

Desiree Simone (13:40)

When I listened to some of those earlier episodes. But then also I'm so proud because one of the things that I tell people all the time and it is because of what I went through with the podcast is just start. It doesn't have to be perfect. It doesn't have to make sense to anyone else but you. All I know is when we did those first few episodes recording voice notes on my phone in my backyard, I felt so excited.

I felt like I was doing something that was getting me super pumped up about my day and about my future. And so this whole idea of it had to be perfect. I just said, screw it. Like, we're just going to chuck it out the window because I was living in my zone of excellence. I was living my passion. I was doing the thing that I loved. I was doing it with my partner at the time. And so he and I were having a great time with the topics and the stories.

And then from there it just grew. And so I always love to tell people when it came to the evolution of the podcast, it might not have started perfect, but it was perfect for me.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (14:50)

Absolutely. It was perfect for you. And I can relate to that thought of, I really want the perfect setup, the equipment. I heard about podcast studios nearby, but I assumed maybe that's investing too much initially when I'm getting started. And when you start with a simple microphone, you wonder, is this enough? But then you're just finding all these doubts and

Desiree Simone (14:52)

Mm-hmm.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (15:18)

You just get lost in your own thoughts instead of just creating something at all. And I'm wondering if you can relate to the experience where the conversations that you gain from having a podcast that will outweigh the doubts of how my voice sounds and whether the tech is perfect when you're having these conversations. And I don't know if all of your guests are from one area or all over the world, but

It's amazing having these talks with people from anywhere, right?

Desiree Simone (15:50)

It really is. Most of my guests, I'm here in Florida. So most of my guests are obviously here in United States, but we've had a few from Canada. We've had a few from the UK. I've had one in Ireland. ⁓ I am back and forth communicating with one from Australia, and we're just like, we'll make it work. She's forever traveling. She just got back from Bali, and then she's getting ready to go to Thailand for a few weeks. And I was like, just call me when you're done. ⁓

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (16:12)

Nice.

Desiree Simone (16:15)

But at the same time, it's like you said, the connections that you make in the podcasting world are so phenomenal. There are, as a matter of fact, I was actually just talking to my friend Dustin, who I like to call my podcast mentor. I met him when I was on his podcast. He's been on mine. We've gone back and forth several times, but we've had this great friendship, like this actual authentic friendship for the past close to two years.

And we just met each other in person earlier in August at a convention. But when we met in person, it was like we've known each other for a decade just because of the connections that we made through podcasting and these amazing conversations that I've had with people.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (17:03)

That's great. That's great. You can end up really chatty with some people, and it's funny, I had that experience as well. You can just feel like you're best friends with someone you just met.

Desiree Simone (17:14)

Yeah, yeah. I always want all my guests to feel that way. Like I said, matter of fact, I was just recording a podcast yesterday, the Spritz Girl Mindset podcast. She's based in Orlando. I'm based in Panama City Beach. So we're separated by about six hours, but I'm going to be in her area in a few weeks for our conference. She's already like, when you're here, call me, let's go have dinner. And I'm like, yeah, girl, let's do it. So you never know where those connections can happen. And

I've always told people, especially if you have a business, in mortal words of Gary V, if you're not on a podcast or starting a podcast over your own to find the connections and find this client, you definitely need to think about doing it.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (17:58)

Absolutely. It's so much more accessible than ever before. It really is. So it's really inspiring to see that you simply got started and you didn't wait to tick too many boxes or anything like that. I'm wondering, how do you choose who you have on your show? And also the other question I'm keen to ask is because I'm a little bit new to this. It's been a few weeks, so I'm really, really keen to ask how do you

I know, this has been barely three weeks.

Desiree Simone (18:31)

Congratulations! My gosh! ⁓ That's awesome. I love that for you.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (18:33)

Thank you.

And I loved that voice. That is the cutest. Yes. I think you must be around conversation number 12, something like that.

Desiree Simone (18:46)

Oh my gosh, I need to double-check. I think I'm at 112 episodes. Yeah, it's crazy. It really, it honestly, it really does. It really, really does. So enjoy the ride. Enjoy it, Melanie.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (18:56)

Bye.

Thanks. I'm wondering how you organise it because I went a bit wild. I told the internet, just reach out, and if it feels right, unless someone is just on a totally different wavelength, which is really rare, but for most of them, I tell them, okay, here's my calendar, pop yourself in. I'm being way too accessible just because I love a conversation. But then I was doing recordings sometimes twice in a day, sometimes

every day for a week. How do you plan out what you're doing?

Desiree Simone (19:39)

Oh my God, I love this. I love that this episode is basically like a love on Melanie podcast episode. Okay. I'm gonna give you, I'm like, no, first of all, do not ever apologise. Are you kidding me? And darn sure don't apologise to me. Okay, okay, okay. So again, congratulations. It is so exciting that you're going down this road. I will tell you firsthand.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (19:46)

Sorry.

Okay, you are my new best friend.

Desiree Simone (20:06)

you're going to make some amazing connections with people that will 100 % if you're smart, will not only change your life, but they'll change your business. They will change your podcast and it's all, it all can be for the better. Now to answer your question as far as how to find the right people, at least for me personally, especially because my podcast is very much casual.

Again, it's supposed to feel like friends over drinks having a fun conversation or a deep conversation, however it goes. My first rule of thumb is, is this a conversation that I wanna have with somebody? Do I genuinely, Desiree Michelle, do I wanna have this conversation? Is this something that if I were out and about and someone says, ⁓ my name is Melanie and I'm in real estate. You're in real estate. What is the thing you do?

I sell beachfront property in Indonesia. Don't care. Not gonna go to Indonesia. Love that you're in real estate. Don't care at all. ⁓ My name is Melanie. I sell real estate. really, what is it that do? I specialise with a lot of first time home buyers. You know what? I am looking at my first home. This is a conversation that I'd like to have. So at least for me, that's one of my very first, and that was one of the very first rules that I gave myself when it came to finding podcast guests was is this someone that I can have the stomach to have a conversation with for at least 45 minutes and in the almost three years that I've had this podcast I want to say there's maybe been maybe three episodes where I thought this is like paint drying.

but three episodes and close to 100, I'm not complaining. So, at the very first, I would say, is this a conversation that you wanna have? This is a minimum of 30 to 40 minutes. Do you have the stomach to have a conversation with this person? Secondly, what is it that you want the audience to gain from this conversation? Do you want this to be educational? Do you want this to be more entertainment?

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (22:17)

What?

Desiree Simone (22:21)

There's a lot of ways that you can look at every single episode. For me personally, I want a little bit of both, but I've definitely done episodes that are far more entertaining and tons of fun. And I've definitely done episodes where there's like a trigger warning. It's very emotional. It is very real. It is very raw. Not only do we drink on my podcast, but we swear. And I've never edited that out because if you're spending time with me for over an extended period of time,

And definitely when alcohol is involved, the potty mouth comes out, sorry, mum. She knows better. I tell her which episodes she can and cannot listen to. So my dad listens to them and then tells her what I talked about. But you wanna be able to say, okay, this is a conversation that I'd wanna have. And more importantly, I want my guests to either, or I want my audience to be either entertained or I want them to be informed.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (23:06)

What the?

Desiree Simone (23:18)

You can either sit here and say, want to focus on more information or say, I want to focus on more entertainment. You might also be like me and like to be able to pivot in both. But at the same time, I also encourage you to do your research when it comes to these guests. I've definitely done my research, but like I said, I had about three where it was just like, ⁓ my goodness. And sometimes, and I do know in the case of one in particular,

It was her very first podcast guest spot that she'd ever been in. She was so insanely nervous. She was so insanely scared. And she told me afterwards. And I wish she had told me before because I felt like I could have at least helped her. But you want to be able to have those conversations, vet your guests as much as possible, encourage them to listen to one of your previous episode. Sweetheart, please know I listened to several of your episodes already this morning while I was in the office.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (23:55)

And I wish that.

Desiree Simone (24:15)

and already followed your podcasts. So that way I understand what it is that you like, what it is that you enjoy with your guests, the kind of rhythm that you have. And so just enjoy the ride. Finally, it's a long answer to your question, but I do love this topic. Finally, like I had with Dustin, find either a podcast or a podcaster that you can just always go to. Be like,

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (24:30)

Thank

Desiree Simone (24:44)

I volunteer as tribute. So you can be here like, Hey Desiree, I have a question. I'm thinking about batching a bunch of content. What do you think? What are the best ways to batch content? I'm using Riverside. Do you use it? Do you like it? You know, who are some guests that you recommend? The world of podcasting is like this really cool fraternity and sorority. There are the clicks. It really is. It really, really is. ⁓

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (25:06)

Really?

Is it supportive

generally?

Desiree Simone (25:13)

It really is. I have yet to find the dark side of the podcasting world. I've been so fortunate. I attended the conference in August because of my podcaster friend Dustin. And it was because he goes, you know what, I'm going to this conference in August. I think you'd be amazing. Let me go ahead and introduce you to the founder of the conference. Send them an email next so you know, I got free tickets. You never know until you get into that world.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (25:40)

Just?

Desiree Simone (25:42)

You start making those genuine connections, and then you just go from there.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (25:48)

Curious, and I might edit out if we need to, but what's the conference?

Desiree Simone (25:52)

No, don't.

So the conference, actually the conference is called Stimulate. ⁓ It is a business to business sexual wellness conference where there's also therapists, there are doctors, there's practitioners. There are obviously vendors that sell a variety of products ⁓ that go into the world of sexual health. And one of the reasons why I attended was recording episodes of the podcast, but also I suffer from an autoimmune disease called lupus.

And so something that's really important, and I'm in my, guess, oh God, to say this out loud, technically I'm now in my late 40s because I just turned 46. So I'm like, I'm in my, thank you. I'm in my late 40s. So for women in this age group, our libido changes. And so it was something between that and my autoimmune disease that was something that was really.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (26:30)

Thank

not have guessed you're doing okay.

Desiree Simone (26:50)

a cause that I felt very passionate about. And I've spoken about a lot on the podcast with therapists and practitioners, not to mention I've had a lot of trauma around that as a child. And so to be able to work through that is a conversation that I also really champion as well. And so this conference was allowing me the opportunity to meet some amazing speakers, doctors, therapists in that world and to make that connection.

And I never would have been to this conference had it not been from a connection from a fellow podcaster.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (27:25)

So a connection introduced to a new community.

Desiree Simone (27:28)

100%.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (27:30)

That's something to keep in mind. And I'm absolutely considering mapping out a way to connect all of my guests that have seen so far, because there's a group of them already. And we all are connected with different spaces in the world, different industries as well. And you've seen that too. You talked with guests from all sorts of different specialties.

Desiree Simone (27:33)

Yeah.

Absolutely. I've spoken to guests. ⁓ One of my dearest friends through the podcast world ⁓ is a death doula. And so ⁓ one of my bizarre inherent fears is dying and death and having her on the podcast and talking about death and grief and how people handle it honestly was extremely therapeutic for me because it helped me realise that one, I'm not crazy to hyper fixate on death as much as I do.

But also too, it gave me the outlet to understand that there are people here in the world who are like, I might be scared as well, but listening to this episode allowed me to connect with someone who works with people in the grieving process, who works with people in the actively dying process. And so would I have ever crossed paths with her in the real life or in the real world? Probably not, but because of podcasting I did. And I'm so, so grateful for that.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (28:53)

It brought you to find that person into that space. Death is such a topic in itself. And what's even connected with that can be things like grief. I'll nudge my camera this way a little bit. I think we can grieve all sorts of things and tied in with death. I think it's a great topic for you to explore because, well, everybody dies eventually. so I think I was mentioning this on another episode with someone else that

Desiree Simone (29:00)

Mm-hmm.

Yes.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (29:22)

We're all going to experience losing someone eventually, whether it's later in life or earlier. And so we all have that journey and other cultures have more of a ritual of recovering. They might have a time period set to process that. And sometimes we don't have those things, or we don't even have the conversations. Sometimes.

Desiree Simone (29:26)

Mm-hmm.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (29:48)

Sometimes in this society, people just don't even want to talk about death. So we don't even know how to even set ourselves up for knowing the day will one time eventually come even if it's decades away.

Desiree Simone (30:04)

And again, with those big topics, that's what I love being able to talk about. I always like to tell people I was pretty much born with a big mouth and a big yapper. So it makes a lot of sense that this is what I do. But also I am hyper passionate about if there is the little person or the little kid being picked on, do not let me be around because I will be the biggest, most obnoxious big sister.

to toot my own horn, but I have taken grown men by the scruff and kicked them out of bars. You think I'm gonna let somebody bully, you think I'm gonna let somebody bully a podcaster friend of mine? Absolutely not. Are you kidding me? So I think that's one of the things that I love about this world of podcasting where you get to meet these people, but at the same time, you get to champion their successes because all of us, if you're smart and you're not a jerk,

There is enough room at the table for us all to grow.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (31:07)

Absolutely. Absolutely. There's space for all of us to have these. And there's a never-ending supply of conversations because we all have a story to tell. I adore what you're saying about being gutsy, having a backbone and my goodness, it is refreshing and encouraging because I think growing up as being the one who supposedly talks too much or is

Desiree Simone (31:33)

Hmm.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (31:35)

a bit too outspoken or standing up for people. You said that you have the desire and the passion to stand up for people, and that can be very controversial. And it sounds like you've found a safe space to do that, but also you worked in an industry that encouraged that because people need to be okay. I'm wondering if you have any words for wisdom for people who want to stand up for other people more.

because it's needed. Maybe people are getting bullied in all sorts of spaces, especially in this day and age.

Desiree Simone (32:13)

I think if you feel called to be that advocate for someone, it is your God given duty to do so. And I wanna preface this by saying that standing up and being an advocate for someone can be in a variety of different ways. So it can be that person who literally speaks out, it can be that person who financially donates. Please know that your girl loves putting her money to good causes.

There is no way that I'm going to leave this earth not knowing I've not been able to help a cause. And if the least I can do is send a hundred dollars, I'm going to definitely do that. But also the way you can stand up for someone is also by defending them when they're not there. And I have had some phenomenal friends who over the years are like, well, you know, someone mentioned you and they said either this about your podcast or this about you as an individual. And I quickly said,

X, Y, and Z. And to know that you can champion someone even when they're not there, I think, is a huge, huge thing that we can do as individuals that just really shows not only our character, but our empathy. And so this idea of, don't really know how to stand up for someone, or I don't know how to really be an advocate. First of all, ask them, you know, ⁓ my, my ex-fiance and majority of the men I date are Caucasian.

And so I feel like it's kind of like a given that you're going to be an advocate for me as a black woman. I've never been with someone who hasn't been, but the way that I've loved seeing that in my previous partners is to see how they are when we might go somewhere and someone looks at us or looks at me differently and to see them stick up for me and to see them support me and to see them show up for me on different holidays and show up for me when I have

25 different hairstyles in the course of a year because black women love to change their hair constantly. So I love that no matter what, showing up and being an advocate can be as big or small as you make it to be, but finally it needs to be authentic. I need you to truly mean it. I don't need you to go to a protest with a handmade sign, but all I'm really seeing is you posting photos on TikTok or Instagram showing that you were at the protest.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (34:26)

You don't need to.

Desiree Simone (34:37)

That's fake. I don't want that. I want you to be genuine. If that's not genuine for you, but standing up is doing a letter writing campaign or financial donation, or in some cases, hey, I don't know what to do, but I made you spaghetti, and I'm gonna drop it off at your house. That is authentic for you, then that is one of the best ways that you can be an advocate for someone.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (34:38)

in ⁓

The part of that that I adore even more is the idea of advocating and supporting people individually, because there are so many opportunities to support organisations and communities. And I think that is really crucial. I love contributing to little not-for-profit organisations, and it doesn't have to even be money sometimes. And you said a small amount of money helps. I love sort of showing up.

Once every month or two, something like that for a group that's trying to make a difference. And I can see that you're doing the same thing, but you also mentioned bringing spaghetti to someone. And I think we need more of that in the world. I can see that energy, that intention in your conversations, in your podcast, and also in the advocacy, because I think when someone goes through something, they're surrounded by

official structures of various sorts. And that can be useful, but we need, let me know if you agree that we need that personalized human connection, especially finding if there's someone who shows up, not because it's their job, as much as doing a job can help people. There's, there's something extra, there's something different about showing up for people as a friend. Do you think so?

Desiree Simone (36:24)

I was literally just having this conversation yesterday with Courtney from the Spritz Girl Mindset podcast. Shout out to Courtney, where we talked about basically showing up authentically and both of us are girls from the South and we as Southern girls, know, food is our love language. One of many right next to college football. And so food is our love language and that's how we show up for people. And so we both talked about the idea of

Let's say someone came up to you and mentioned that they lost their job, and you weren't sure how to show up for that person. Ask them. Maybe that person just needs you to listen. Maybe that person just needs to get things off their chest. Maybe they need to go out for a drink. Maybe they just need to sit in silence. There's so many things that we can do, but one of the things that I think is just frustrating is this idea that, well, we can't do anything.

Or I don't want to ask, I don't want to seem to intrude. You have no idea what the person next to you is going through and how simply asking them how I can show up for you in this moment could radically change their perspective in that moment and in that timeframe. So until you ask, until you put out there that I'm willing to help, but please tell me how I can show up for you, you'll never know.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (37:49)

You'll

never know. Absolutely. I saw that coming up in the calendar really soon, at least over here. I don't know if it's everywhere. There's something called R U OK? Day. And is that not a thing in America?

Desiree Simone (38:04)

I've never, no,

I have not heard it, but I love this. I love this.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (38:08)

Okay,

you can Google that. It's simply called "R U OK Day." And so look for the letters are and you and then okay, but it's a simple concept like the name describes. And I think it's cliched to say that every day should be, but it's nice to have those days that remind us that we should ask. And I think the people who are really connected with what's going on around them and with

Desiree Simone (38:17)

Yeah, yeah.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (38:38)

the truth and reality below the surface will ask people, say if someone is not doing their best work one day or something like that, asking, you okay? What's really going on? And, and hearing that food is your love language. I think that in some way it should be like that for everybody. And I don't think that you have to be a great cook to do that.

Desiree Simone (39:05)

No, it's the thought that counts. Are you kidding me? Yeah.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (39:12)

Absolutely. Even if someone can delegate the cooking or just get snacks for someone, anything. Because also, let me know if you agree as much as we love conversations and look, whenever someone is addicted to talking, you are on my wavelength, but sometimes someone else might not know what to say. Do you find that sometimes just being there and sitting and being present makes a difference?

Desiree Simone (39:38)

It really does. It really does. I remember a friend of mine, I went to go visit him when he was stationed in Hawaii and we had done this whole day of backpacking and traveling. And so to go back to his place, we had like a 45 minute drive. And we spent a lot of it just like in silence listening to the radio, just because it was one, we were tired, but also two, the scenery was great. It was just a really, really great time.

And we went back to his place, and he said, You know, I really appreciate that drive. And I'm like, what are you, what are you talking about? He's like, you just didn't feel the need to fill the noise. It was a great drive. It was really great music. Sat there thinking about, man, I had a really great time with you. Backpacking was awesome. Like it was just really nice. And I also knew that you were there with me at that time, but more importantly, you didn't feel like.

you had to talk that whole 45 minutes. And I thought to myself, I felt the same way too. I just never, I never put it to the same kind of idea that there is truly beauty sometimes in that silence and sharing genuine space with someone. So I very much encourage it.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (40:56)

You can be in this stillness and you can pause as listening to a different podcast where someone has these heavy conversations and that person every so often will say, can we just sit with that for a moment? And I mean, that goes a step further because I learned in public speaking to pause and to take a breath, but to really stop and let something sink in, even if it's for a whole

Desiree Simone (40:59)

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (41:27)

trip on a holiday, even if you're going for half an hour or more or whatever it might be, or if you're sitting on a couch for a while, we're going and going and going and we're off to the next thing, and we don't, we don't give ourselves time to process things. And that probably comes back to what you do with the podcast and what this is becoming. We're giving ourselves time to process. Even I like that I didn't set up a bunch of questions.

For this conversation, I sort of knew we'll go wherever you want to go, that sort of thing.

Desiree Simone (41:58)

We love that!

We love that. And I will say that that works for some people that you have on the podcast. I'm recording an episode tomorrow with a professor and I very much have like my notes because I know his background. know the conversation and the talking points that we have, but I also tell people because it's supposed to feel like friends over drinks, we're going to chuck half these notes most of the time, but we're going to focus on the high points. And that's one of the best ways that you can kind of lean into podcasting at times.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (42:33)

of that, the mix of both the hybrid of notes and improvisation. That's the way to do it. I was doing a training a week ago, and that was a similar idea. I started off with okay, here are my points, and then people wanted to hear about just a few other things, and sure, let's go with that, or let's hop from this point in the list to that thing, because when it's

Desiree Simone (42:37)

So great.

Mm-hmm.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (42:58)

When it's a bit more conversational, that's okay. And sometimes look, if you were doing a keynote and you really just wanted three neat things, then that's different. Maybe that's part of what's so relaxed about a podcast, that it's so much more conversational, and she can go with the flow. But I think what I gained from not over-preparing, I mean, I always find out, okay, who is the person and what's the background, but

you mention things that I'm not going to think of. You're going to mention things that aren't on your website. And so that sort of thing, it just goes in any direction. And to me, that's really fun. Maybe it's the attention span.

Desiree Simone (43:41)

She's like, I wanna talk about this, I wanna talk about that. And there's this shiny object, and there you go. Yeah, shiny object right over here. But yeah, and again, that's where you kind of, you pivot. I've definitely had a few where I've looked at my guests and I've been like, we're gonna bring this train right over here again. Because as much as I love a good tangent, I do have some structure going on, right? I wanna be able to talk about your main core principles or whatever tenants is important to you.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (43:46)

Shiny objects,

Desiree Simone (44:10)

But that's where you, as a podcast host, need to steer the ship back to a lane that works best for you and your audience.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (44:18)

Yes,

absolutely. Especially when you might only have an hour or so. I wonder, I think this is half about caring for others and half about how to do a podcast. They're the two overarching things. Yes. You're a teacher.

Desiree Simone (44:31)

I love it, that's why I was like, let's do it, let's do it. We're totally. We weren't even going to

talk about this at all. I gave you talking points, and this is called the great pivot, and this is exactly what podcasting is all about.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (44:43)

Absolutely. So I'm wondering, do you set a time limit for your episodes? I prefer an hour, give or take maybe half an hour if we're not feeling all chatty, but how do you, some podcasts go for three hours. Where do you draw the line?

Desiree Simone (44:59)

Okay, so I always like to tell my guests that I shoot for 45, and I just noticed our clock here. So I'm like, boom, this is really, really great. I think I've only had a handful that I've had like that, 35 minutes, because it was just like, this is just, it's just not working. But for the most part for me, I always like to tell people 45 to 60 minutes. Like, I feel like that's really great. 60 is really great for the podcasting world. However,

I have had a few episodes, and they've been some of my absolute favourites that are hour and 30, hour and 40. I had one that hit the two-hour mark, and it was just great vibes, great conversation, great laughter. know, it's just, it's really hard sometimes when you just have that kind of guess. And then I've also had some that are like the 45, 60-minute where I'm like, okay, you know what, this is too good.

I'm telling you right now, you're coming back when we're doing a part two. And so you can also do that as well. But for the most part, the average for me sits at about 55 minutes for my episodes.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (46:09)

Right. Couple of questions there. Firstly, is it mainly the vibe that makes a conversation go longer? Is there something else that will make you want to have a longer conversation? And would you agree that we're getting a lot more flexibility in the podcast format compared to traditional media? We have that freedom to pick and choose the timing.

Desiree Simone (46:32)

You definitely have more flexibility in this type of genre when it comes to, you know, focal arts and wordplay and storytelling podcasts. You definitely have more flexibility with that. It is absolutely the vibe, the vibe of the guests, the energy that you're getting from the guests. But then also I've had very intellectual, very deep conversations where the podcasts went longer just because

the knowledge and the know-how and the way it was expressed by the guests was just phenomenal. ⁓ There was one guest, and as a matter of fact, I met her finally in person when I attended this conference, Susan Bratton. I remember it was probably one of the most difficult podcasts that I've ever hosted because I realized I sat there the entire time just in awe of what she had to say. It felt like a master class, and I didn't want to ask questions. I just sat there and was like,

I even said that to her when I met her at the conference, said, I am so sorry. I felt like such a dud of a host, but I really just wanted to listen to you speak because I felt like I was getting this intimate masterclass on this topic. And sometimes you have those people where the knowledge and the way they convey it is so thought out and so well done that you blink and there's 40 minutes. But then you also have those conversations where it genuinely feels like,

you are a long lost friend that I never knew I had and you believe in all of a sudden, 50 minutes are done, and your timeline and your script and outline is out the door because the connection is so genuine. Conversely, you have paint drying, and you were looking at every single second, and you're just like, let me just get to 30 minutes. Let me just get to 30 minutes. So you never know, really, there are a lot of

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (48:12)

.

You

Desiree Simone (48:27)

And I've set this very often with my podcast in particular. There have been some episodes, or at least some guests, where I've reached out to them. I've done my research and I thought to myself, based on the topic of what we're going to talk about, I can tell this is going to be not difficult, but it's, I'm not going to be that excited about it. It might be a little too cerebral. I may have to trudge through it.

only to come out on the other side, blinking and all of a sudden it's 47 minutes and it was just thoughtful. It was provocative. It was genuine. So never judge a podcast guest by their cover or their social media because you can sometimes be truly surprised.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (49:16)

I can relate to so much of that. One thing I wanted to ask to see if you agree and if you have hints about this is that when you're trying to find that interesting conversation with someone to keep it flowing, I find that the personal stories or any sort of professional personal anecdotes, a detailed, this is what happened in this specific time. It can bring everything to life. And I don't know if you ever had guests

Who are trying to squeeze all the jargon in and they're trying to all the buzzwords in or something like that. You have seen that. And so I'd have my own ideas, but I'm wondering what you do in that sort of situation, how you can, how you encourage people to loosen up and show the practical relatability of what they are doing. I'm seeing a nod.

Desiree Simone (50:08)

I'm laughing because I'm like, that's the reason why we drank on the podcast. That is literally one of the main reasons why I'm like, you are encouraged to drink on this show. And I've had so many guests in the past who were like, first of all, no one's ever told me I could drink on a podcast. And secondly, it was so much fun to have this conversation with you over drinks because that really serious, heavy jargon conversation.

ended up being a little bit more relaxed when you're half of a glass of wine in. And so, at least for me, and it's one of the reasons why I love the show format that I have and why I'm so happy that my guests have enjoyed it, that has been, that's why I was laughing. Cause I'm like, oh, that's easy. That's the reason why we drink on my show. I'm like, yeah, we're going to talk about these heavy topics. And I'm sitting here telling people, well, you might want to go ahead and have a glass, and you might have the bottle nearby.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (50:42)

interesting.

Desiree Simone (51:06)

because I've definitely had some shows where the topics are just flowing and we're having a great time, and it's in-depth. And I just recorded an episode a few weeks ago, and she goes, Yep, pretty much done with the bottle. And I'm sitting here going, that was an hour and 15-minute episode. And it was phenomenal. It was phenomenal. She had wine, I had whiskey, we were laughing. She almost had me in tears talking about my mom. It was a...

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (51:22)

my goodness! What was it, wine?

Desiree Simone (51:34)

Beautiful episode. But again, that's what works for me. That's that's my wheelhouse. But one of the ways that I definitely help people pivot is I do kind of try to find that one thing that is like a really good nugget from what it is that they've done in that long tangent. And then just try to move it into the next topic because you will have those people who are long-winded. Hope to God I'm not one of them. But you will have those people who are long-winded, and you're like

This is really deep. going into the trenches of like some super nerdy stuff. Let's lighten it out a bit.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (52:12)

I do want to emphasise that I am into wellness, and as much as the Blue Zones experts will say a glass of wine is okay, I'm not telling my audience to get drunk. I need to put that on the record there.

Desiree Simone (52:23)

Do not,

do not. And we do the same on the podcast. Not only that, I also do a sober month. And one, I'm always an advocate of people who are like, Oh, I don't drink, but I'll have this on your podcast. And I'm like, absolutely. If a guest tells me they don't drink and they want a mocktail, I'm like, let's talk about the mocktail that you bring because everyone lives differently. Like I said, I always do one month where I do like a 30 or 31 days of no drinking.

And so we talk about that as well, but it's still an idea of community. It's still an idea of I'm meeting up with my friend at a coffee shop, and I just need to vent about my kid who has decided to, you know, destroy everything in the house, and I'm a new mom, and I don't know what I'm going to do for my sanity. And I'm the friend who's like, meet me at Starbucks. I'm getting you a double minty. You're getting the cake pop, and a cake pop is for you. It's not for them.

And I want you to enjoy yourself.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (53:26)

Goodness, sitting down for a treat of some sort. Even I love having a mug of tea for this. And you're spot on. It's about the community. A little hack. When I've had phases of not drinking alcohol at a bar, I would order a sparkling water with fruit juice because it's so easy. You know, they're going to have that. You do that too.

Desiree Simone (53:32)

Right?

A lime or something. Ooh, yeah, yeah. It looks the same. It looks the same. It looks the same. I

will do, especially in the months that I do like my sober month, I'll do ⁓ tonic water and a slice of lime because one of my go-to favourite drinks, depending on my mood, is tequila, tonic water, and lime. So tonic and lime looks just the same as a Blanco tequila and lime. I walk around there, ask them to give me a little straw. It looks like I have a cocktail. It's fine.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (54:09)

Yum.

it does. And it happens to be cheaper as per their

Desiree Simone (54:23)

And

It's cheaper!

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (54:25)

lot. But also, you're right, it's fun. And it can still feel like a treat. And that's accessible. But no, I

Desiree Simone (54:33)

Yeah. Yeah. And

I was gonna say, not only that, there are so many bars and restaurants and establishments who are leaning in towards the sober lifestyle and mocktails. So, you know, I have a girlfriend of mine who became sober a few years ago. And so one of my favorite things to do whenever we're getting together is I like finding the new bars or the new restaurants that are like,

we have a brand new mocktail menu, and I'm like, let's go girl. We're going to try it all. So again, showing up and being an advocate for your friend. That's what I do when I'm with her. We're going to catch up and we're going to go to this bar because I see they make a phenomenal faux pina colada and girl I want to try it too.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (55:19)

Absolutely. Look, I love a good drink to chill out, but the mug tells really something, and it reminds me I do have a friend who's in recovery and really does not drink. And I know that when I was setting up an event, I wasn't going to say, Okay, everybody gets a drink at the door. That doesn't feel right to me. It wouldn't make sense. And so I'm wondering if you have any hints for people who are maybe

creating parties or events or anything and they want to maybe they enjoy a glass of something stronger for themselves, but they want to provide something for those who don't drink. Do you have any tips?

Desiree Simone (56:00)

So

I do have this question because my daytime background is in the world of hospitality and again, freedom beverage, catering and events. And so it is so important to be as inclusive as possible. You'll do catering events and you'll have people that are like, okay, well we need to make sure we have a vegan option or a gluten-free option. The same goes into the world of your drinks. And because sobriety and sober curious and sober cocktails are becoming such thing now,

it's no longer taboo, and it's definitely not any, it's like you mentioned, they're going to have a lot of the basics already in most basic bars. So it is nothing to be able to go ahead and add that little extra, but then also, depending on the event, your budget and your scale, create something that is specialised. I've been to many weddings where there's been like a custom mocktail cocktail, and it's so nice to be able to see people go,

you know, thank you so much for thinking about me, because we're gonna make sure we have a vegan option. We're gonna make sure we have a gluten-free option. We should do the same thing when it comes to our beverages.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (57:07)

Nice, a custom drink. That must be like such a treat. Is it a little bit fruity sometimes? What do people do?

Desiree Simone (57:11)

yeah.

It really is.

I mean, people can do a lot of things. I always like to tell people, especially one of the reasons why I even got into this industry, my bizarre superpower is I can go to your house and you're like, Desiree, all I have is this, this, this, and this. And I'm like, Melanie, stand back. What do you want? You want sweet, you want sour, what are you feeling? And I will create it for you, alcohol or no alcohol. I don't know how I developed my Superman skill of doing this.

but I've been this way my entire life. So it makes sense that I eventually became a bartender. It makes sense that I became a food and beverage director. It makes sense that I have a boozy podcast because it is my gift.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (58:01)

of what you're telling people here is they can figure out something with what they have, feel that way, about food.

Desiree Simone (58:07)

100 %

Yeah, and I'm the same way. Matter of fact I had a co-worker, bless his heart, he's younger and so he's definitely on a budget and he's like yeah well all I really do is have like rice and tuna and I'm like all you do is rice and tuna? Okay, so we're gonna get some teriyaki sauce. Okay we're gonna get some salsa. Okay, we're gonna do this. So this is what you're gonna do with the rice and tuna every single day for five days and by the time I was done he looked at me like...

I didn't realise I can do all that. Of course you can do all that. Of course you can.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (58:41)

Yes, people need to think outside the box. I had a moment at the start of last year when I was at someone's house, and there was pretty much only pasta and hummus. And I explained that's a meal, the hummus becomes a pasta sauce. It's that simple.

Desiree Simone (58:56)

We

can do a lot with that pasta and hummus. Are you kidding me?

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (59:01)

I know. I know.

It's awesome to know you've had that same experience of people think they don't have much. It's almost like a modern-day loaves and fishes in a way.

Desiree Simone (59:08)

God,

Yes, it really is. It really is. Do not tell me all I have is, and then go from there, because I'm going to be like, all right, I'm going to show you five things that you can do with that all I have is.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (59:24)

It sounds like part of what you learned from your work background is how to be resourceful.

Desiree Simone (59:29)

God, yeah. Are you kidding me? 100%.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (59:32)

What else do people need to know about? Look, you need to give me a time limit at some point because I keep thinking of more things to ask. You're like a big sister.

Desiree Simone (59:37)

No!

You two

more questions, because you're almost at an hour. So you get two more questions. So you know what, as a matter of fact, I'm gonna act as your co-host. You get two more questions, okay? I want you to take your time and think about it. While you're thinking about it, okay, because I was gonna say, I'll give you some time, but you've hit an hour. You get two more questions, that way I won't bore you.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (59:46)

Okay.

Okay.

I have my questions.

⁓ You would not bore me, but no, no. And now I think that an hour is becoming the good limit. I don't think I've brought it that much more than an hour ever, but okay. To bring it back to the main purpose, the two things that I wanted people to learn from you before we delved into how to make the most out of two items in your kitchen. go back to, we'll go back to, okay. It was about authentic conversations.

Desiree Simone (1:00:08)

You

Mm-hmm.

Nice.

Hahaha

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (1:00:36)

because that's something that you do and any more hints. So how people can advocate inauthentic conversations. And so maybe a go-to sentence or two that they need to remember about that. And any other sentence or two about what people can do if they are thinking about starting a podcast, but they haven't started yet.

Desiree Simone (1:00:59)

Okay, so let's start with authentic conversations and how people can be an advocate. The best thing that you can do is ask the very simple question of how can I show up for you? How can I show up for you? Not necessarily what do you need because that's a very loaded question within itself, but how can I show up for you? Do you need me to hold space? Do you need me to be silent? Do you need me to bring you pasta? Do you need hummus with your pasta?

Do you need a bottle of vodka? How can I show up for you? And if they respond with, don't know, then just sit in that silence because eventually it'll come to them. And if it doesn't, maybe all you need to do is sit in that silence. Your second question, tips for podcasts? Yep.

Your tips for your podcast. Actually, I'm going to big sister you for a moment. Melanie, first and foremost, congratulations for doing this. You've decided to go on this journey when so many people have said, one day I'll start a podcast, one day I'll get a microphone, one day I'll ask someone to be on my show. You are already steps, leaps,

mountains ahead of all the people who've said one day, one day, one day, because you're already doing it. You've also already done a phenomenal job because usually it is three episodes, three episodes that generally people say, you know what, I can't do it. But the fact that you're past your third episode, the fact that you're going out there and you're asking for guests, the fact that you are asking questions and wanting to learn

You were already leaps and bounds ahead of where you're going to be in the future. And the great thing is in about a month, two months, five months, a year from now, you're going to go back and look at these episodes and go, this is where I started. Now I'm not going to lie and sugar coat it. Consistency is hard. It is challenging, but if you decide to say to yourself, I'm going to show up in the most consistent way that works for me.

that is genuine and authentic for me, the greatest tip that I can give you as a fellow podcaster is make the consistency that works for you. You mentioned doing two episodes one day, I've definitely done that. And then I realized I do not need to do that because it can be draining. That's not my consistency. But if my consistency is recording once a week and reaching out to five people per week,

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (1:03:34)

I'm going to ahead

Desiree Simone (1:03:48)

so that I can show up and I still have fun doing it, then Melanie, you are in for the most amazing ride. And if no one has told you yet, I am so proud that you've started this journey.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (1:03:53)

I'm sorry.

.

Thank you so much for the encouragement and for the advice, consistency, people can learn that about everything. We can apply consistency to whatever we do. Desiree, thank you so much for your time.

Desiree Simone (1:04:04)

You're welcome.

It's my absolute pleasure sweetheart, thank you so much.

Keywords

productivity, work-life balance, coaching, self-care, emotional resilience, multitasking, legal profession, technology, authenticity, entrepreneurship

Summary

In this conversation, Coach Lee shares insights on balancing a legal career with productivity coaching, emphasising the importance of work-life balance, self-care, and emotional resilience. He discusses practical strategies for multitasking, the significance of morning routines, and the role of technology in enhancing productivity. Coach Lee also challenges stereotypes in the legal profession and advocates for an anti-hustle mindset, encouraging individuals to reconnect with their 'why' and prioritise their well-being. The discussion culminates in actionable tips for starting a business and living a purpose-driven life.

Takeaways

Balance is about wholeness, not a strict 50-50 split.

Finding hidden time in your day can enhance productivity.

Self-care is essential for maintaining emotional resilience.

Establishing boundaries is crucial in high-pressure professions.

Morning routines can set a positive tone for the day.

Multitasking effectively involves pairing tasks that complement each other.

Technology can aid productivity, but personal touch is irreplaceable.

Authenticity in communication fosters deeper connections.

The anti-hustle mindset promotes sustainable success without burnout.

Starting a business begins with identifying your passions and strengths.

Titles

Balancing Dual Careers: The Journey of Coach Lee

Defining Work-Life Balance: A Personal Perspective

Sound bites

"Balance to me is wholeness."

"I'm anti-hustle and grind."

"Brain dump, to-do list, start."

Chapters

00:00 Balancing Dual Careers: Law and Coaching

02:47 Defining Work-Life Balance

05:52 Unlocking Hidden Time for Productivity

08:49 The Importance of Self-Care

11:50 Managing Emotional Energy in High-Stress Jobs

14:43 Navigating Routine and Variety in Legal Work

17:39 Technology and Productivity: Finding the Right Balance

28:56 Mastering Time Management with Technology

30:12 The Double-Edged Sword of AI in Content Creation

32:06 Authenticity vs. Automation in Social Media

33:58 The Importance of Being Disruptive

36:18 Balancing Work and Personal Life

38:24 Creating a Work-Life Balance for Busy Professionals

43:47 Reconnecting with Your Why

46:17 The Journey to Becoming a Life Coach

51:04 Finding Efficiency in Daily Routines

55:37 Starting a Business: Finding Your Passion

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (00:02)

Okay, Coach Lee, it is lovely to talk to you. Thank you so much for being on the podcast. How are you doing today?

Coach Lee (00:08)

Thank you for having me.

I am doing good, how about yourself?

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (00:13)

Wonderful, wonderful. I saw that you have worked in a legal career, or you do work in a legal career. What do you do? Tell everybody about yourself.

Coach Lee (00:28)

I as I like to say, criminal defense attorney by day, productivity and accountability coach throughout this month since it's now September. This will be 12 year anniversary of being an attorney. fact, my first job was actually at a law firm. So as you say, I've worked in and still work in the legal field.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (00:46)

Right. You're an attorney now. Okay. How do you fit the time in for these two roles? Do you have a lot of hours working as an attorney and then fit in your other work on the side? You're all about productivity. So how do you do it? That's a place to start. How do you do productivity?

Coach Lee (01:06)

So I'm all work life

balance. Fun fact, I don't bring work home, I don't work weekends. I don't work, I mean, I'm salaried, but I don't do the overtime. So work hours, five o'clock, really like 4.45, I'm packing up to leave work. So eight to 4.45, eight to five is work for me. I don't work weekends, I don't bring work home, I don't work late. Unless like if I'm in trial, so I'm physically in the courtroom, yes. But.

I can literally count on one hand, literally like three fingers, the number of times that I have like brought work home or went into work on my day off. Besides, I can only have like emergency duty. But yeah, I knew going into law that, you know, the stereotypes and I'm a public defender, so government attorney. So, you know, high case loads, long hours. And I'm like, I want to do this work, but I also know that I don't want to work late. I don't want to bring work home. I don't want my identity or to be defined by work.

So I went in kind of with the game plan. I'm like, let me figure out what it is that I need to do. What do I need to do literally to do the job, to understand my role, to create this work-life balance. And then, yeah, so I've kind of stuck to it, even with the various iterations of turnover, people leaving. So having high caseloads temporarily, being promoted, taking on higher cases, things like that. So yeah.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (02:27)

That's amazing. So even when there is extra work, you find that balance.

Coach Lee (02:32)

Yes.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (02:35)

Do you think people can find an actual balance or do you think that our time is leaning towards one thing or another at different moments? How can people attempt something resembling balance? Or is it about finding time for whatever we value?

Coach Lee (02:54)

think is both. I don't define balance as 50-50. Balance to me is wholeness. So when you say about is it about what's important in that season or in that moment, you might have 70 % focus maybe at work or career or just had a baby. You know, in that role and then maybe 20 % or 25 % I guess, let me do correct math here, in another area. But ultimately, that is balance because when you think about a scale, the whole point of it is to keep it to where it's teetering and tottering as opposed to

Like we have this game I call topple, like when you get the scales unbalanced, everything crumbles over. That's not balanced. You can have balance where it might be, as you would say, like out of whack, like one area is higher than the other, but at the end of the day, you're still hanging tight to that and not everything isn't falling off. So I think, yes, balance is possible, but also in understanding and defining balance, you have to understand what is your priority in this season, in this time and in this phase to be able to identify and look at that. ⁓

to kind of define balance.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (03:57)

Knowing our priorities, we need to know something has to be the priority in this moment. So I'm very curious to now explore what exactly do you do with your productivity coaching? What does that involve? What do you do with people?

Coach Lee (04:03)

Exactly.

So for me, it's about a funny story. Talking about time, when people were like, you should be a life coach. I'm like, yeah, I don't have time for that. Like full time attorney here, who has time for that? But then, know, we all know what happened in 2020. So that gave me some time. But what do I do? Essentially, I help people find the hidden time of their day. Time that they can use to pour back into themselves as they pursue their goals, their purpose, their life passions, while still maintaining their current responsibilities, but without stress and without overwhelm.

So I look at productivity and work-life balance or finding hidden time is essentially about multitasking. But multitasking in the right way. Because a lot of people will tell you like, multitasking is bad, it's divided attention. But think about driving a car, you're multitasking because you're looking at the light, you're looking to make sure this car isn't coming into your lane, you're pushing the gas, pushing the brakes. We multitask all the time. But are you multitasking right? Like are you putting together tasks that go well together?

When I work out, I work out and listen to music. I work out and listen to podcasts. So we multitask a lot of things. A lot of people like, you know, walk on the treadmill and watch a TV show or, you know, do the stationary bike and watch a TV show. We multitask all the time. So when I talk about finding the hidden time, it's essentially how can we help you to multitask more efficiently and more effectively in a way that's going to actually work for you.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (05:36)

love that multitasking or multitasking. It can take so many different forms. And I'm wondering if you've seen some people perhaps doing something that needs a bit less mental attention and pairing that with something that's a bit more mentally involved. The example that comes into my head is sitting on a train and then doing some sort of work.

on a computer at the same time. Is that the sort of thing that works well in your experience?

Coach Lee (06:08)

Yes, for me, that's exactly like what it is. For example, I have, because of traffic and school being back in, like a good hour commute each way to work and home. And so what can I do when I'm in the car? I can listen to podcasts, I can listen to audiobooks. If it's after 8 a.m. and like doctors offices are open, maybe I can call and schedule a dentist appointment, a doctor's appointment. Those things that we're always like, oh, I need to remember to do this, but yet it's still you're sitting in this car for this time, how about use it? Or...

I always wish I could catch up with this person or I wish I had time to call this family member. Again, you're sitting in this car for even if your commute isn't an hour like mine is, 30 minutes, 20 minutes, even if, you know, whether that's you and them make it a schedule to where, every Monday I'm gonna call you when I get in the car and we're gonna talk till I get to work. Okay, cool. So they know to expect that. Or even if you just, you know, make your random calls. And so yes, it is about finding what tasks work together. I'm a person.

say that I'm good at multitasking and that's not to like toot my own horn or anything like that but I'm the person who like for example at work as an attorney we have to go to court. I'm the person who can be in court like file reviewing like reviewing my new cases while sitting in court and still know what's going on around me. Some of my co-workers are like if I'm reviewing the file I know nothing about what's going on so like I'll be sitting there typing and the judge will be asking a question I'll stop answer the judge's question or tell my co-worker something and go right back to it and they're like how do you know what's going on?

And I guess my brain works weird in that way. So for other people, they wouldn't be able to multitask in that way. If they're in court, they're like, okay, I can put in notes from what's happening in the court, but I can't work on anything else outside of this courtroom. And so, yes, I found that that works good for me, but that, for example, it might not work good for you. But ultimately what I help clients do in the, I guess the benefit of productivity, not even the benefit, that's not the word I want to use, the...

The balance in productivity is figuring out what works for you. I don't want you to be like, hey, Coach Lee does this, so I have to do this. Because if it doesn't work for you, your brain, and your lifestyle, you're not going to be productive. You're not going to be consistent. You're not going to get it done. Just like there might be things that you do, and I'm like, no, I can't do that. I'm a morning person. If you told me to stay up till 10, 11 o'clock at night, I'm just going to be rubbing my eyes and like, I'm physically here, but mentally I'm not.

And so finding what works for you is important to be able to have that consistency, that discipline, and to be able to really be productive and keep things going.

Yes, and I think, I know I am a morning person. I'm not a night person. So I won't tell you what time I wake up because then you would be really appalled.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (08:41)

⁓ okay. No, tell

me. I apologise so much. ⁓ So, what time?

Coach Lee (08:47)

No, no, no, no problem. I

up at 2:30 in the morning, but I go to bed at like 8:30, 8:45 p.m. Which is why I was saying if you ask me to do something at 10 o'clock, if I'm forced to be awake, like I'm literally like eyes burning physically there, but mentally my brain is sleeping.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (08:57)

Wow.

at 10.

Coach Lee (09:09)

Yeah, anything human

can have an eye.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (09:13)

Do you get up at 2.30 though? And this is not because I'm not a morning person. I'm just wondering, how do you get enough hours of sleep? And are you working after 2.30? Are you getting your exercise? What does your morning look like? I'm so curious about that.

Coach Lee (09:31)

You sound like my mom. Literally like my parents every time they hear this they're like are you still getting up at 2 30 and I'm like yes and the weekend was Labor Day here in the US and so I was home my mom was like can you stop waking up at 2 30 what could be so important at that time of the morning and I'm like my life my stuff so for me I get up at 2 30 and so I go through my morning routine like I read my devotional journal all of that good stuff get ready you know brush my teeth I go ahead and put on my workout clothes I work out from home so my

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (09:34)

Sorry.

Coach Lee (10:00)

My workout, my office is my workout room slash office. So, so then, you know, I pack my lunch and everything like that for work. And then I come into the office, and typically I'm in my office by like between 4:15 and 4:30. So that gives me about an hour to work on my business. So normally, doing those things that you can't do when you have client calls. So prepping the client calls, responding to emails, personal development, things like that. Then I do my workout after my workout, take a shower, get dressed to go to the full-time job. So I get up at two 30 so that I can

take care of me important to me because of the fact it's 2.30 in the morning. Who in the world is looking for me at that time? Who is gonna distract me? Absolutely nobody.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (10:42)

is part of your focus about finding the time when people don't need your attention.

Coach Lee (10:47)

Sometimes it not necessarily but that could be a good place to start for me My workouts are non-negotiable and because of what I do for work like as an attorney like right now I'm not in a trial period but tomorrow I'm actually leaving to go to a training for work and I'll be there until Friday and So because of that it's easy to get thrown off of your schedule if you're like, I have to go to this conference Am I gonna really want to work out after the conference for example? Oftentimes you might say no and so I used to be I've always been a morning person

But I used to work out in the evenings. after like within my first year of being an attorney and starting to see that, okay, trials don't always end at five o'clock. And even if it does end, you know, at five you have to go back to the office, pack your stuff up, drive to the gym. Because at that point I was working out in the gym before I was working out at home. And so I saw that my workouts could be kind of.

more likely to be interrupted because if I'm stuck at work, if I wanted to attend a specific class that started at a time, but if I'm leaving work late, I'm not going to get to the class on time. now I'm hungry because I missed lunch because I was in court. So now I want to eat before I work out. So I found that working out in the evening wasn't as conducive because there were there will be things that would cause me to have to miss it. Whereas if I work out in the morning before work, besides oversleeping, what's going to make me miss that? Nothing.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (12:08)

Right.

Coach Lee (12:09)

And so that's kind of how we were talking about, you know, knowing what's important in the season. ⁓ My coworkers know, like, if I don't get my walk in or if I don't eat, they're like, did you eat? Did you get your walk-in? I get antsy, and I get not necessarily snappy, but I can get a little short because that's like my stress relief. So if I make sure I get my workout in the morning, I set myself up to be a happier person and everybody else will appreciate it.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (12:36)

Nice. It's coming back to self-care. This is so fascinating because I have been talking with podcast guests from all different professions, and they are all prioritising self-care. And that's what you are doing because you have your exercise, and also you are prioritising eating. I feel passionate about eating real food.

However, that might look for an individual. And I'm guessing you'd be the same. You're not going to, probably. I'm wondering, you're probably prioritising other foods instead of just having Coca-Cola for a day when you have this much going on, am I right?

Coach Lee (13:17)

Yes, I don't, can't tell you the last time I had a soda. I will say that I had pizza for lunch, but that's me like getting rid of some leftovers. But dinner is spaghetti squash and meat sauce. So I'm very much, yes, I know what fuels me both in terms of workouts, my walk, drinking my water, and also the foods that fuel me so that I'm not sluggish, lethargic, tired, different things like that. But yes, I would say self-care for me kind of fits into multiple buckets. Multiple buckets.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (13:47)

It fits into the buckets. So you get your rest, you get your movement, and you are fitting that into a busy day. That's a priority. you encourage all of your productivity clients and everybody around you to fit in some sort of movement in the day?

Coach Lee (14:07)

Yes, but no if that's what they want to do. Yes I don't try to force it on them Oftentimes most people who talk about they want to find time working out or eating healthy is somewhere in there And so I often encourage them to start small so whether it's okay You have kids what if you take the kids out for you know Just a quick spin around the neighborhood just five ten minutes just to get into the habit They burn off some energy you at least felt like you moved a little bit. What about that? So yes, I encourage it for those who want that wish

A lot of people really do want that, and they just aren't sure how to fit it in, but I don't force it on anyone who's not mentioning working out. Because ultimately, if you want to find what's going to stick, it needs to be something that you want to do, not something that I think you should do because we know the benefits of self-care, working out, and eating healthy.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (14:53)

We absolutely have to. There are two topics that are really coming to mind. And the first one that I want to ask you about is the emotional energy of doing what you do, because being an attorney, I'm guessing, and you can let me know if I'm right, guessing this, that you would be dealing with some very emotionally intense work. And I'm wondering if you ever need a moment before or after that to

balance yourself emotionally or catch your breath after that and how you look after yourself when you are working with such ⁓ intense situations.

Coach Lee (15:34)

Yes, and I'm a criminal defense attorney, so I'm dealing with crime all day. People who are accused of crime, you know, dealing with literally their lives potentially being taken away and things of that nature. So yes, it can be emotionally taxing. I don't want to say I'm desensitised and that I'm not empathetic, but I think I do a good job of compartmentalising. Like I'm able to leave work at work, and that's probably also because I literally leave work at work. So then that helps me the emotion aspect of work at work.

⁓ Obviously, yes, there are times that it bleeds over, but I think knowing that, hey, asking myself, did I do my best work? Did I do my best job? What else could I have done? Or, you know, what can I do tomorrow to make this better? Like asking myself, kind of checking in with myself to make sure that I'm showing up in the best way possible so that I don't let what might be going on in life for me affect my ability to show up and care and do for my clients, especially because literally,

Their lives are in my hands in a sense of, as a defense attorney, I'm defending them in them being accused of whatever the crime is that can have years to literally life in prison.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (16:46)

Definitely. It's their lives. It's how they're going to spend the next however many years. So it sounds like when you're leaving work at work and you're stepping away, then you're mentally switching away from that to give yourself space. You're actually helping me to understand people who work in intense industries, be it health or educational law, things like that. Because sometimes the way people talk about

issues, can have a very minimal amount of emotion in how they're talking about things. And I'm wondering, is that sometimes because it's how they're looking after themselves in not drowning in the emotion to make sure that they're okay? that part of it?

Coach Lee (17:35)

think yes, in the sense that if I think of my coworkers who I know work late or bring work home and how I feel, this is my perception of them, how I feel that they might feel more frazzled or like all over the place, the ones who I feel feel that exhibit that are typically the ones who are working late, bringing work home and never really shutting out work or like, know, know, emails come to their phone and always responding and always receptive to that.

Whereas those who have a little bit more of the boundary aspect of even if they're like, okay, I'm going to work late. I'm telling myself I'm working late today so that I don't have to work on the weekend or whatever that might be. They seem to be calmer. ⁓ So I would say, like, if I'm just comparing across my coworkers, that yes, that seems to be the case. And I know my coworkers who like work out or eat healthy. Whereas some, I'm like, when's the last time you drank water? Literally, please tell me the last time you had water.

So yeah, I can think of if I just compare what I know about my coworkers. Yes, I can say that at least in in my small niche of the world.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (18:41)

Absolutely. You're bringing us back to basics, especially with the example you just gave, because people can be doing the most life or death work, but sorry, I really want to move this camera a little bit that way. That's better. People can be thinking that for a few minutes. People can be doing the most life or death work and yet the most essential thing in a moment could be, you hydrate?

Coach Lee (19:08)

Yes. Yes, I've had coworkers, like I remember one that we thought it was a heart attack because she has a family history of heart attack and she's like sitting on the floor breathing. I'm like, girl, is you okay? And she's like, I think I'm having a heart attack. And I'm like, can we call 911? Can someone call 911? Can you unlock your phone and we call your husband? Like, we do something? It ended up being a panic attack, but she was so stressed out about a case that

It was basically weighing on her. And she's one of those ones that I can think about who's talking about how she's gained weight, how she needs to work out and different things like that, but wasn't doing it because she was pouring her all into the job, but in a way that she wasn't taking care of herself. I like to believe I pour a lot of myself into my work, but I also know my coworkers know my boss know. Don't call me after five unless it's an emergency. I'm not talking about work outside of work hours. Half of three-quarters of my coworkers don't even have my number because y'all might abuse it.

So I, and I think for me knowing that when I came out of law school, I knew I wanted to like be a public defender, do this type of work. And I knew from, you know, watching TV, the books, the stereotypes, public pretenders, all of that, of what people say and think about us, that number one, I knew I wanted to change the stereotype of that, change the game of that in the work that I did, in my work. And then with that, that in order to do that and not burn myself out,

How can I make sure that when I'm at work, I'm at work? Like I'm locked in. If that means I don't socialise with my coworkers a lot, okay, cool. I'm here to work. Y'all might be hanging out, talking all day, but you're okay with working late, bringing work home, weekends. I'm not. So I think, yes, it definitely goes to what you're putting in is what you're gonna get out.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (20:57)

Was that the stereotype that you had seen of lawyers working long hours, or was there more to the stereotype?

Coach Lee (21:05)

Yes, I would say specifically in terms of like public defenders or a government attorney is public, they call us public pretenders, i.e. you're not real lawyers, ⁓ high case lows, don't talk to their clients, know, just gonna push a plea, different things like that. Yes, the working long hours, both in terms of public defense, as well as just probably any other type of lawyer, especially private lawyers who are, you know, have their own firm.

You're at the beck and call of the client because that's where your money's gonna come from. If I don't answer this call, I might miss out on a case, which means I just missed out on money. So yes, that's what I heard, I saw, you know, regular TV shows, which we know TV shows are drama, so they're not necessarily, you know, the true, true life. But yeah, it was definitely what I heard, what I saw, what I thought, but also what I knew that I didn't want it to be for

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (21:55)

Absolutely. TV is, of course, a version of reality. You're nodding a lot. So it's not exactly like TV.

Coach Lee (22:02)

Yes, a version.

No. Have you ever heard of the show, How to Get Away with Murder?

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (22:11)

I heard of it, but I've seen other law shows more than that one.

Coach Lee (22:17)

I was gonna say that started out maybe real, but after season one, half way through season one, you're like, absolutely not what any of these things have been. But yeah, there's a lot of shows that have the gist, but that's about it.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (22:33)

And I think one of the stereotypes for high-pressure professions that we see in TV shows is also that there's an extreme situation every single day, because that's what makes TV interesting. And these questions are just coming to me as we unpack all of this. comparing it to the medical shows, they have the most bizarre situations.

Every time I mean, how many times did Meredith Grey nearly die, right? I'm wondering, do you do you perhaps have some phases in your work where there is a bit of routine and things are a bit more settled? And I'm wondering some people go into work, whether they are starting a business, like you did, or a different sort of business, or they're going into a public service role. And

Coach Lee (23:08)

Right!

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (23:31)

They think they're going to be rescuing someone from a cliff every day. And do people ever struggle with the routine and trying to keep their productivity or grow their success when life is a little bit more routine and steady.

Coach Lee (23:49)

So I think that's a double-edged sword. Just because there's a routine also doesn't mean that every day is the same. So no, every day isn't high pressure, someone's about to die, or there's some health issue. Are there those moments within the day? Yes. Is that a moment within every day? No. Are there days where...

You know, you just have an office day. Yes. And honestly, you're grateful for those because you've been running around so long that you haven't been able to sit in front of your computer and maybe put your notes in or figure out what's going on or check your voicemail. And so while every day is the same, no two days are the same. So while you might have that general aspect of like, every day I'm going to go to court, then I'm going to come to my office. What happens in court? How long you're in court and what court looks like that day? Because judges are people too.

Maybe the judge is in a bad mood and so therefore the client's office are getting blown up, meaning like if they were gonna resolve the case, the judge is like, nope, don't wanna accept that or things like that. Like they're humans too. And so as I progress within my career, like now I do most of the murder cases. So I do most of the dead body cases. So for me, I have a lot more routine in the sense of I have a lot more office time, but also each of my cases, the discovery, which is basically the paperwork involved in the case are hundreds.

to a thousand pages per case. So me having this extra office time is good because I have a lot more stuff I need to read through to go through for this case. So while I might not be in court every day, I'm still in my office doing a lot. Like this morning, I went to the jail first, then I came to the office, put notes in and pretty much just in my office for the rest of the day preparing. Because like I said, the rest of this week I'm going to be at training, so I'm not physically going to be in my office for the next three days. So planning and preparing to be a way to make sure.

You know, my voicemail was changed, my email is set up. My coworkers know, hey, where to find me if you need me, things like that. And then, you know, when I come back from training, I have to go to our Orlando office on Monday. Then I'll be back into my physical office on Tuesday. So it'll be a week since I've seen my office by the time I physically come back to work. But I would have been at one of our partner offices on Monday. So every day is the same in the sense of eight to five, I'm at work. But what happens within that day is going to differ.

And so I think people do struggle with not so much the routine, definitely not the monotony, but finding the time to do the different roles that you have to play. Going to court, going to the jail, meeting with clients in your office, talking to people on the phone, responding to emails, checking your voicemail, doing the prep work to be each of these places and do each of these things. So I think people struggle more so with the, have to do all these things, how do I get them done?

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (26:33)

So it's actually the variety in a way, all of the different things to do. And a few things popped up here. The admin side of your work. wanted to ask about that in a moment because we all have an element of our work that has quite an admin side. And these days, there are trains of thought where some people get a virtual assistant, get AI to do things. And I do want to know,

How you approach balancing, getting the technology to handle your admin, and still doing some things yourself. But I needed to comment that also it seems like some people have the kind of brain where you can flick from thing to thing. I know I feel like I have that sort of brain where it's easier when I flick, and you might've worked with some clients who don't do that. But I'm definitely wondering how do you handle

the admin side of it and not drowning in the detail or perfectionism, that sort of thing.

Coach Lee (27:36)

perfectionism. ⁓ we still struggle with that. As I say, I'm a recovering perfectionist. In terms of the tech side, number one, I sync all of my calendars. Meaning if I open my phone right now and look at my calendar, I can see my work calendar, my personal calendar, and my coaching calendar. Work, everything is green on the work calendar. I think purple is business and then pink is ⁓ personal. So I can like, if I'm going to schedule something and I'm like, do I have anything? I'm like, okay, let's see here.

what's going on today, you know, what's going on? And so I can look to see because generally speaking, I know automatically Monday through Friday, I'm at work. But if I have to set a doctor's appointment, you know, for example, during work hours, do I have court? Yes or no, because that's gonna come into play if I'm like, hey, I'm gonna go to the doctor, I'm gonna go to the dentist, I'm gonna go get my hair done, or even, hey, I wanna go to the jail in the morning, okay, do I have anything scheduled? So I know that.

Once you're in the jail, you can bring a watch in, which you can't bring your cell phone, so nobody can call you. So you kind of have to know to be able to plan and strategize for your day. So for me, the biggest tech thing is my calendar and syncing my calendar so that I can open it and get a, like literally I use the monthly view of this is what's going on in my life. Cause I know generally speaking, Monday through Friday I'm at work, but what do I need to do at work? And can I do something for personal?

During that time, or even like, can I hop on a coffee chat or something during my lunch break at work if I need to. So tech, my calendar is the biggest thing. I don't do a lot of automation or anything like that. I'm pretty much a one-woman show, but I also, by getting up early, I kind of know the pockets that I work different things in. like the morning hours, of like checking my email, going through that really quick, figuring out what I need to do in terms of business, same thing with personal. ⁓ And then,

Kind of like midday when I do like my content time, like that, checking back in on that. But my calendar is the main tech thing that I do and making sure that everything syncs so that like my coaching calendar syncs to where if something gets scheduled, it'll like, you know, block off on people's ability to schedule appointments and things like that. But also because tech makes mistakes, making sure that like if an appointment goes, that I also make sure I click the yes on it so that it'll push it and force it to make sure it gets on the calendar just in case it didn't auto sync to the calendar.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (29:59)

That is such a crucial lesson. And I think people need to remember that point. said that tech makes mistakes. We are so dependent on technology now that we just trust it. And it has came so far, but we do absolutely need to still use our critical thinking.

Coach Lee (30:17)

Yeah, and I think that's the positive and negative of AI. I love to use AI for brainstorming. Like, hey, I'm thinking about, for example, planning this month. I want to talk about, this is what's going on for me and my personal life and business. I want to find a way to bring that into my content for this month to help clients see or help people see X, Y, and Z. So help me brainstorm themes for each week that I can talk about. But I also...

Love that for the brainstorming aspect, but I also found myself becoming a little too reliant on, I call it chatty, on AI in the sense of sometimes writing my captions and I'm like, this doesn't really sound like me, but also this was easier to do, let's just post it. But I can see the difference in conversion in the sense of not much engagement. Whereas if I look at the post, like even just for this week, the like, I wrote myself, and I might've put it in chatty after I.

fully wrote it and was like, should I rearrange any of this to make it flow better? And then, you know, making the decision from there. So I don't use too much AI, but I use AI more so as kind of like a lot of people say like your, um, your accountability partners and things like that. use it a lot more for brainstorming and especially where if I'm doing brainstorming of like, I had these ideas in my head, not sure how to strategise, make them flow or how I can make these three things that sound really different fit together. It's really good for things like that.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (31:43)

that approach. So, for the captions, is that for your social media posts? I really appreciate that approach to the social media posts, because sometimes you can tell if an account is mostly posting words from AI, you can tell it often has a lot more of those little, oh, there are specific symbols that come up a lot.

Coach Lee (31:48)

Yes.

the dashes.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (32:11)

The dashes and I think a star, there are a few pictures that come up a lot when AI wrote it, but you can also just tell, and there's an authenticity, especially if you're talking from the heart and from a personal experience that AI could not have known about, then that's absolutely going to be something that can't be replicated. And have you seen that that connects with your audience a lot more because

they can see that it's a bit more real.

Coach Lee (32:43)

Yes, I'm typically a more like in your face type of person, but I found that like chatty waters down my message, I guess tries to make it nicer. And I'm like, no, no, no, no, I need to go back to yelling and being disruptive. That's what people, they need to hear that. And like, I might say it in the video, but then the caption sounds really soft. And I'm like, they don't match. So yes, I can tell.

And so I assume that other people can tell at least based off of the lack of likes and things of that nature. To me, that feels like they don't resonate given I know the algorithm does its own thing sometimes. So may or may not be that, but at least since I think it was like last Wednesday is when I was on a coaching call and my coach was talking about like being more disruptive. And I'm like, that's what it is. That's what I'm missing. had started like the word hadn't come to me, but I was realising like something's missing, and I was trying to figure out what it wasn't. When she said the word disruptive, I'm like,

That's what it is. started watering myself down. And so since then, like last Wednesday, like I said, was when I kind of was like, no, you're writing these again. You have the outline that they helped you come up with. You know what you're talking about. Come on, bring it out. And so even since like last week, I feel better and I can feel, I guess, see a little bit better in terms of engagement.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (34:02)

Do get a bit more gutsy and outspoken when you're saying what you really wanted to say? I love that so much. And I personally think that decades ago, entrepreneurs, the classic entrepreneurs like Branson and so on, they did outrageous things and they didn't feel so cautious about things. now we are using the catchphrases like strategic all the time.

Coach Lee (34:08)

Yes.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (34:31)

No offence to those who are in love with the word strategic, but we're trying to fit a structure. You're saying that. And it sounds like you are having a bit more bravery and just saying what you really want to say. I'm wondering, what do you get gutsy about? How are you pushing the envelope? And I'm also wondering, where do you draw the line? For me personally, anyone who knows me at all will know that

I can be a little bit too passionate when I really care about something. So it's amazing that we're both talking, but I think I need to learn from you because I'm wondering for those of us who are passionate about a cause, anything like that, how do we find the balance between getting gutsy and still not just taking something too far?

Coach Lee (35:26)

think for me it's reminding myself that at the end of the day it's their life, just like it's my life. And if I can see that you're struggling and this is why you're struggling but you don't want to listen, okay, live and let live. That's fine. So for me, I think I get like passionate about like planning. Like why are you working 24 seven? Why are you working on vacation?

Why are you bringing work home? Why are you neglecting time with your kids, your family? These things, your why, your reason for doing this, why are you neglecting that time with that? And so, especially as women, we often feel guilty about taking time for self, self care, not showing up, you know, those things. Not saying like be a fluke or anything like that, but we feel that we have to keep doing more. And so for me, it's about letting you know and reminding you that you got here.

it away. Like you got here for a reason, you got here in a way. And what got you here may or may not keep you here, depending. Do you really want to hustle and grind? Like one thing that I'm passionate about is I'm anti-hustle and grind. I'm not anti-hard work, but I'm anti-hustle and grind. Cause you don't have to hustle and grind in order to get results. You can work hard and working hard can still have you sleeping, eating healthy, drinking your water. Cause oftentimes people who talk about

hustle and grind and no offense to the men. Like it's that, that bro marketing, man, I'll sleep when I'm dead, things of that nature. But then at the same time, if a woman does it, you also look in and you're like, well, why isn't she home with her kids? Who's watching her kids? You know, assuming they have kids. But so it's like the two sides of like hustle, hustle, hustle. But also judgment because where her kids at? Who watching them?

Who made dinner last night or whatever, the different roles you play in life. And so for me, I think that's what I get passionate about. Hustling grind, it's a no for me, but that doesn't mean I won't work hard.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (37:30)

I'm so grateful to hear you saying all of this because the hustle is literally impossible for some people. When we do have a family we are responsible for and we have a cause we're passionate about and work that we have to do, we can't literally just do the work all the time. It won't happen because something will be missed. And if you've been working with people who were

working on their vacations, working when they could be spending time with their families. I'm wondering how, how do they overcome this? Especially do you work with anyone who perhaps does multiple types of work, like maybe staying connected with community, but also perhaps doing a nine to five and also their own business.

Is anyone that you work with juggling something like that and how do they manage all that?

Coach Lee (38:31)

So it makes me think about ⁓ one of my clients. is, I was gonna say she was an attorney. She is an attorney. She owns her own firm. So it's the combination of she works nine to five as an attorney, but also she is the business, you know, her and her partner, like it's two of them in the firm. So, which means, you know, they have to get silage for themselves. They also have a receptionist. So, you know, they're responsible for more income than just themselves. And she was married and, you know, had dogs and wanted to work out of all these things. And so for her, she literally worked late every night.

would then leave work, go home and keep working, would work on the weekends. She was like, I don't know the last time I took a vacation. I'm like, what do you mean you don't know the last time you took a vacation? She's like, I don't know. Like every time, you know, my wife asked about going on vacation, it's always like, basically I can't. You're the boss. You own the firm. What do you mean you can't? And so we worked together to create a schedule. And for her,

She was like an evening person. She was like, okay, I do want to work late, but I want to work late so that I can stop working all weekend. So, okay, you already was working late and working weekend. So, okay, I'll give you keep working late. If that means you don't bring work home when you leave the office and you don't work all day on the weekend, I'll give you that. So I'm not here to say you have to start working at five. If this is what work-life balance is going to look like for you, I'm here to help you create that. So we literally work together to create a schedule to where she will work until like six.

6.30 every night and then go home, leave the work at work, go home, eat dinner, watch a TV show and everything with her wife and get ready for bed. We were, like we made the schedule, three days into working together, she's like, I left work and I'm like, it's five. What do mean you left work? She's like, I finished what I needed to do for the day. Okay? And so from that point forward, she didn't work late. She also didn't work.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (40:17)

You

Coach Lee (40:28)

weekends or bring work home with her. So we found that like pretty much she was reacting to the day. A client will call, the secretary would transfer her. So if she's in the middle of say writing a motion or working on this thing, because the phone rang, she would stop and divert her attention there, which means once she got off this call, now for me to go back to this task, I got to figure out where I was. Now I'm thinking about this client who just called or maybe, hey, a new client just called, let me run out to, you know, go to the jail to go meet the client or whatever the case may be.

So we got it to where, let's control your calendar. Let's block your calendar. Can we bring your secretary in on this so she knows, just because a client calls, if it's not, just say that these are my client, A, B, and C are my focus clients for this week because they have motions coming up, trial, whatever the case may be. If it's not these three clients calling, take a message, see if you can help. I'll call them back before the end of the day, but it doesn't have to stop what I'm doing right now. So essentially, we started taking control of her day, taking control of her schedule.

And so because of that, she was then able to start working late. She also was on the board for, I know it was one organisation, it might've been two, and they met say like every Thursday at like nine in the morning or something like that. So she had to plan time to be able to go there for those appointments at well, and was like, okay, well, if those appointments are by the jail, why don't after the meetings, you just make that your jail day and just after the meeting, go ahead and go to the jail, check in with any clients you need to check in with, and then come to the office. So we started making her schedule work for her.

Her wife was surprised when she started coming home to eat the dinner that she cooked. And then it was like, wait, you're not gonna, you don't have to do any more work. We can watch a TV show together. And so then she ended up having an unexpected death in her family and she had to go to New York during the time of us working together. But she was like, I dropped everything. I went to New York. I didn't feel guilty about it. Everything was taken care of. I'm not stressed. I'm not overwhelmed. I didn't bring any work with me given if this would have happened before, she was like, I probably would have brought work with me even though I was here to deal with the death of a family.

She's like, I didn't. And I felt good about it. And then later on that year, she started working out, started going to the gym, taking the dogs for longer walks to at least let that be movement in the beginning. And then she was like, I think I want to get back into the gym now that I've got my weekends back. Cool. We started bringing the gym back into it. And then I saw her, because she's around the courthouse where I am. She was like, I'm going to Puerto Rico next week for a week. You want what now?

She's like, yeah, I can't tell you the last time I took a vacation. She's like, I thought my notice of unavailability with the court, we are going on vacation. And I think since then, it's probably been two, maybe three years since we've worked together. I know for sure she's taking at least one vacation a year. And I'm like, she's like, my wife is happy. My wife says thank you. And I'm like, she welcome. You did the work. We built a schedule for you to actually work late, but you went above and beyond and you took off not even working late, let alone not bringing the work home.

So yes, I think it can be a mix of I'm the boss, I'm the attorney, I also have these other roles, but they're all meshing together, and I'm doing one thing well, being an attorney, slash two, I guess. Being an attorney slash being the boss, but not necessarily being these other things well. And though her wife was very understanding and was like, you know, I understand, I understand. She never nagged her, never complained, you know, never, to my knowledge. She said she was very supportive of her and never, you know, fussed at her about it.

But once she was able to devote more time to her, she also wasn't complaining about that either.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (43:55)

Exactly. People can be supportive and understanding when you need to be more busy, but they can be grateful when you are showing up and being present for them as well. You shared some crucial lessons for everybody in all of this. First of all, I noticed it sounds like the calendar is organised based on where things are, as well as the buffer in between the moment where

She was going to multiple things that were around the same courthouse location. That's something everybody needs to know. It reminded me of a moment, a while ago when I had a bundle of meetings that were all in the one few blocks of each other, right? And if your clients are doing something similar to that, just put everything together physically, then that can free up their time instead of zigzagging around the place.

So you are teaching everybody about that, which is awesome. And also you are encouraging people to have a holiday. This isn't just how can you do the work you want to do. It's have a holiday. The reason why that resonates so much to me is because, sorry, but it's all about the cliched phrases. You do only live once and so on. We've all seen deadpots society and we're all into seizing the day and so on. But seriously,

I mean, someone could wake up five or 10 years from now and wish they had gone on that holiday or wish they had seen a place or been with people before they no longer have the opportunity. It sounds like you're reconnecting people with their lives.

Coach Lee (45:38)

Yeah, or at least their why. Figure out what is your why. Like if family is your why. Because maybe you're in a season where, and I'm sure when she first was growing her firm, that truly was the focus. Because you quit your job to open this firm, so if you don't make money here, you don't eat. I understand that. In that season, which goes back to what we were kind of talking about in the very beginning, the season and what's important. So yes, reconnecting them to their life, but more importantly, reconnecting them to their why.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (46:07)

Your why. So the season, it's about the reason within the season that you are in. Now that's a phrase that we can share everywhere. Know the reason within the season you are in.

Coach Lee (46:16)

Yes.

Yes, yes.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (46:28)

Absolutely. So I'm curious, how did you, it's funny looking at this at the end of the conversation, but how did you get into this? How did you, how did you decide to start supporting people's productivity as the business that you were focusing on outside of Euro 95? How did that all start?

Coach Lee (46:52)

Well, I never set out to do this. Like I said in the beginning, so I used to do health coaching, like Beachbody, like Body, like Shanti, P90X, like those workout programs. I was doing those workouts, like coming out of law school, and we were kind of in this accountability group, like a support group, where we would kind of like post our workouts, cheer each other on. So in the course of that, people were kind of struggling with like, I don't have time to work out. Like, how do you get your meal prep? And like, how can I shorten the amount of time it takes me to meal prep?

My kids won't eat this, my husband won't eat that. Like they don't do leftovers. So kind of like brainstorming ways for them to like meal prep easier, more efficiently, like making meals that like, okay, maybe you have a protein and everybody has a different, you know, a different side, different things like that. So essentially encouraging the ladies within that group. And so from there, they were like, you know, you're encouraging, you should be a life coach, which goes back to my, I don't have time, full-time attorney who has time for that. ⁓ And I was like, yeah, no, cause they were like, pretty much everyone was like,

How do you do it all? And I'm like, what do you mean, how do I do it all? Number one, I don't. I say no to a lot of things. I get that you see a lot of the things that I'm saying yes to, but also I plan these things out. And so people are asking like, how do you find time for this? And made me realise that people struggle with time or time management or how to maximise that time. Kind of how you were talking about the appointments, putting them all together. Like, can I go to the grocery store after work?

because I'm already in that area instead of leaving on a Saturday morning when I literally was just at my house to drive to the grocery store, like things like that. So people kind of kept saying that I was like, I don't have time, don't have time. Pandemic, fast forward. Thankfully didn't lose my job, but you know, the world shut down and everyone's at home. I made it a week into the pandemic, and I was like, I'm so bored. I'm reading books, I'm doing puzzles, I'm watching TV.

Going for walks, working out, I'm like, I'm so bored. I need something to do to stimulate me. I'm used to working. And so like our job was like, you know, understandably, we don't care about you being online eight to five, just get your work done. Like if you have kids and so you only can work, you know, late night shifts because of your kids, whatever, because I'm a morning person. I was pretty much finishing my work every day by lunchtime-ish. So now I still have eight hours, so I'm going to be ready to go to bed. What am I going to do?

So basically all those thoughts started coming back to me, people saying, you you're motivating, you're encouraging, you should be a life coach. And I'm like, okay, let's look into this. Let's figure out what this is. And you know how you start talking about things and when you open up social media, the algorithm is now feeding you those things that you're talking about. So I'm getting all these ads for free webinar, life coach, learn about life. So I'm signing up for all these free webinars because probably the attorney in me is like, if I'm gonna do something, I'm gonna do it right. So I'm signing up for all these free webinars to figure out.

What is this life coaching that people say I should do? The program that I ultimately ended up going through to get certified, I made it halfway through the first video, which is all of like three to five minutes. And I was like, oh, this is what coaching is? I understood why people said that I should do this now. I'm in, I'm in. And that's how I got into it. And so I used pretty much 2020, like, you know, pandemic happened in March until pretty much the end of the year. And then, you know,

took, taking my training certification, bought a domain, bought the website, set up my website, reached out to a couple of friends who are like, hey, you've who in passing, I've talked about like, hey, that tip you told me, I did that and it worked kind of reached out to them like, hey, thinking about becoming a life coach, I know you said I've helped you in the past. Can I like formally help you and you kind of critique me as a coach, what should change the length of my sessions, the format, things like that, pretty much what I didn't know they were called at the time beta testers.

to help me get everything formalised and kind of get that through 2020 and then official LLC went live January 1st of 2021.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (50:49)

Awesome. So you had that experience during the pandemic, as we talked about earlier, but it sounds like what stood out to me is that on this surface, it looked like what people needed to learn was what to eat and how to get movement. But the real learning curve that people actually needed was the timing and how to organise their day.

And you are teaching me something in that because my experience was during the pandemic, I was actually focusing on the what to eat part. I think that we had such parallel but opposite experiences. I was exploring, okay, which carb can go with which bean and so on. But now as life gets more busy, especially, I think we are more busy now compared to the days when we were just at home. Yes, all over the world, people are getting so busy.

Coach Lee (51:17)

It's in the light.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (51:46)

And so our challenge now is beyond what to eat. It's how to fit that in. And I am hoping if there's any other word of wisdom without telling people what to eat, I welcome any tips for everybody on how to just make that easy. I know there are the YouTube videos on five-minute meals, 10 minute meals, things you can make quickly.

Did you find that those hacks or you mentioned the shopping hacks, but did you find those tricks are what gets people on track feeling better?

Coach Lee (52:26)

think it depends on the person. Because maybe for you and for me, I started out like when I started working out with calorie counting. Now, the things that I eat now are completely different than things that I ate then when I was counting calories. I'm counting calories to eat Doritos. 12 Doritos is 160 calories. Whereas now, I would say I can't tell you the last time I had chips, but generally speaking, because I had pizza, I had pizza and chips. But generally speaking, I don't buy chips. So besides this, I can't really tell you the last time I had chips.

that the calorie counting I was doing then the things that I was eating then when I first started it's completely different now and so I think you have to start where you are don't worry about perfection because for me when I started counting calories and just being like okay this is what I like to eat how can I eat this and still you know make this progress and then as you start doing the work your taste buds change your desire changes and then you want to

do better, okay, like maybe I'll get out the potato chips, so maybe I'll move on to baked chips. And then eventually you move on to like maybe crackers or something. And then eventually you're like, okay, give me a rice cake or something like, you you step yourself through the process to where you then get to the point of you're like, chips, that wasted calories, empty carbs, like not gonna do anything for me. Give me some rice, some beans, some potatoes. Give me something that's gonna, you know, fuel me. So I said, start where you are.

If you're still at the potato chip phase, that's fine, but start there. Maybe the thing is you go from eating a bag of potato chips to half a bag. Progress. Small actions compound over time to big results. So wherever you are, whether it's working out, eating healthy, trying to, know, brain dump and make a schedule, start where you are, give yourself grace, and just keep moving forward and making progress.

You're going to see the things that you like about what you're doing and you're to see the things that you don't like. Keep doing what you like. The things that you don't like, try new things until you get that right combo and keep tweaking it as you keep going.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (54:34)

taking steps and having grace for yourself. I totally agree with the gradual changes and the chip example is aligning with almost everybody. I think we all have those comfort foods. The example I love is for fries. To me, the step after deep-fried fries, wherever, maybe it goes from

the fast food places to then perhaps the place that's a little bit more authentic. But then my ideal is to get a potato and wash off the dirt, cut the potato and put those pieces in the oven. it might, yes, all the air fryer, those are so popular now. And it's quicker because you don't have to wait for an oven to preheat. So

Coach Lee (55:19)

with an air fryer.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (55:31)

Those things, you mentioned the air fryer, and that's even an efficiency. So it's about building efficiency into everything that we do. And you mentioned having grace for yourself and meeting yourself where you are. I'm guessing that would come up with people even changing their professional lives as well.

Coach Lee (55:49)

Yes, like no matter what area of life it is from getting to bed early, waking up early, staying up late, you know, depending morning or night person, depending on where you fall to the eating healthy, to moving your body, to drinking your water, to, you know, mindset work, like all of it takes time. You didn't become this person overnight, so don't think you're going to unbecome or become the new version of yourself overnight. Everything is a process.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (56:16)

Everything is a process. It is. And I'm wondering if someone is looking to start a business and they've not even started that process yet. What would you say for someone who either wants to do something, but they might not know what they want to do, just something independent. And what would you say to someone who has an idea, but they need that little next step?

Coach Lee (56:46)

So I would say, if you're not really sure what to do, start first with what you like, what you enjoy, because I'm sure we both know that business is not always fun. But when you get reminded of your why or why you're doing it, that gives you more oomph to wanna push through those hard times. So start with something that you actually like, love, or enjoy in some way, and then...

let that kind of guide you. Because oftentimes when you're like, I don't know, like I want to start a business, but I don't know what I'm good at. Ask your friends. If you, I'm pretty sure if you ask five to 10 friends, they likely are going to all say, if not the same thing, some version of the same thing. Like, Hey, what do think I'm good at? And then maybe you will see that ⁓ I can start a business with that. But even when you have the idea and you're not really sure where to start, we talked about AI earlier, ask Chattie, Hey, I want to start a business doing this.

I'm not really sure where to start. Can you help me? Google, like before we had, I mean, I guess theoretically Google is AI, but before we had like, you know, chat GPT and all of that, we had Google. Just ask Google. Start small, like we don't have, don't start with the brick and mortar. Start with the online space. Start with posting on social media and saying, hey guys, I wanna, if it's crafting, hey, anybody want, you know, to get their tennis shoe shoelaces?

Custom-made. don't know. I just threw out something random and just see what people say

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (58:12)

Totally agree. Asking friends or asking Google or I like how you call it chatty. That's really cool. Actually, this podcast started because there was one post on threads and a whole bunch of people responded to it. And so I didn't expect that. And you saw people kept telling you, should coach, should guide people. And so

The people around you guided you to what you should be doing. So your advice is don't just look within, you can look externally to see some signs, some signposts for where you should be going.

Coach Lee (58:49)

Yes.

100%. Start first with yourself and if you don't want to start with yourself because you're not really sure, start with those that are closest to you. And honestly, sometimes you might start with those people who aren't that close to you, who maybe only have encountered you, you know, in limited situations. They might concede too.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (59:12)

People can see it.

Coach Lee (59:14)

Yes.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (59:15)

People can see it. I like to wind up the conversations with three tips because I just like that number. And I'm really keen to ask you if there are three things that everybody should know to make their personal and professional lives feel more purpose-driven, what would it be?

Coach Lee (59:39)

Get it out of your head and onto paper, make a to-do list and start. A brain dump is getting it out of your head on the paper so you stop thinking about all the things you wanna do. Once you have that list, turn it into a list of like, what is it that I wanna get done today, this week, this month, and just start. Pick one thing.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (1:00:01)

Brain dump and start.

Coach Lee (1:00:04)

Brain dump to-do list start.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (1:00:06)

Brain dump to-do list start. I'll make sure those dot points get out there. Brain dump to-do list start. Coach Lee, thank you for teaching us so much.

Coach Lee (1:00:17)

Thank you for having me.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (1:00:20)

It's been wonderful.