The Motivate Collective Podcast by Melanie Suzanne Wilson

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**From Breakup to Breakthrough: Confidence, Co-Parenting & Life After Plus One with Leanne Hutchinson** Episode Description

After walking out with "nothing but my daughter and a suitcase," Leanne Hutchinson rebuilt her life—and now helps other single parents do the same. In this heartfelt episode, she joins Melanie Suzanne Wilson to discuss breakups, co-parenting, dating after separation, and staying authentic in an online world that labels everything. Together, they explore confidence, communication, and letting go of the past so you can create a healthier, more grounded next chapter.

> *Note: This conversation shares personal experience only and is not a substitute for professional counselling or medical advice.*

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## 🎧 Guest

**Leanne Hutchinson — Single Parent Coach, Life After Plus One**

* Founder of *Life After Plus One* and host of the *Life After Plus One Podcast*

* Supports single mums and dads through separation, co-parenting, and dating

* Background in coaching and counselling with lived experience as a single parent

* Passionate about self-growth, confidence, and real-world emotional recovery

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## 🎙️ Host

**Melanie Suzanne Wilson** — Speaker, mentor, and host of *The Motivate Collective Podcast*

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## ⏱️ Chapters & Time Stamps

00:00 – Welcome & Leanne's mission helping single parents

01:07 – Leaving with a suitcase: her breakup story and loss of support network

03:35 – Neutral, non-judgmental coaching for parents rebuilding life

04:39 – Are breakups becoming more common? The social media influence

06:39 – Labels, "red flags," and the problem with over-labelling

09:13 – Identity and victimhood: moving from "I am" to "I've learned"

10:39 – Opinions, truth, and why we need to question social media debates

16:15 – Real support versus momentary campaigns like *R U OK? Day*

20:27 – Overcoming loneliness & finding new community

26:59 – Growth through learning, courses, and self-development

31:46 – Dating apps, boundaries, and emotional baggage

34:36 – Rebound relationships & attention vs. alignment

38:04 – How soon to meet someone new? The case for a phone call first

41:15 – Communication as the real red flag

46:16 – Blending families & aligning expectations early

49:45 – Authenticity in social media and business

55:27 – Selling with honesty & understanding your audience

1:01:01 – Leanne's top three actions for your next chapter

1:03:50 – Closing gratitude

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## 💡 Key Takeaways

* **Identity isn't destiny:** Your past story doesn't define your future.

* **Social media ≠ reality:** Question assumptions and online "truths."

* **Dating isn't a bandaid:** Heal first, then connect authentically.

* **Communication builds clarity:** If you can't talk to your partner, that's a red flag.

* **Confidence is currency:** Growth happens when you back yourself.

* **Stay in your lane:** Focus on how you show up for your kids, not on proving your ex wrong.

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## 🗣️ Memorable Quotes

* "Don't let your past become your identity—use it as your lesson." — *Leanne Hutchinson*

* "If you can't talk to your partner, that's the red flag." — *Leanne Hutchinson*

* "There's judgment in every walk of life; it's whether you choose to listen to the noise." — *Leanne Hutchinson*

* "Stay in your lane. Focus on being better than who you were yesterday." — *Leanne Hutchinson*

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## 🔗 Resources & Mentions

* **Life After Plus One** — Coaching and podcast for single parents

* **Social handles:** [@lifeafterplusone](https://www.instagram.com/lifeafterplusone)

* **Website:** [lifeafterplusone.com](#) (insert URL when available)

* **Melanie Suzanne Wilson:** [melaniesuzannewilson.com](https://www.melaniesuzannewilson.com)

* Related Episodes: *Rebuilding Confidence After Burnout* | *Finding Your People Post-Breakup*

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## ✅ Action Steps for Listeners

1. **Rebuild confidence:** Try one small challenge this week that expands your comfort zone.

2. **Detach from labels:** Write down the titles you've outgrown (e.g., "single mum," "divorced") and what you want to embody instead.

3. **Join one new community:** Whether it's a walking club, creative class, or local café—connection starts small.

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## ⚠️ Disclaimer

This episode shares personal stories and insights for educational purposes only. It is **not** medical or psychological advice. Please seek qualified support for your specific situation.

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## 📲 Connect

🎧 Listen on: **Spotify | Apple Podcasts | Google Podcasts**

🌐 Learn more: [www.motivatecollective.com](https://www.motivatecollective.com)

📩 Enquiries: **[[email protected]](mailto:[email protected])** or **melaniesuzannewilson.com/contact**

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## 🧭 Episode Tags

#singleparentcoach #breakuprecovery #coparenting #datingafterdivorce #confidencecoach #lifecoaching #mentalhealth #selfgrowth #socialmediawellness #themotivatecollective #melaniesuzannewilson

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Transcript

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (00:00)

Leanne, welcome to the podcast. It's great to have you here.

Leanne Hutchinson (00:04)

Thank you for having me.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (00:06)

I'd like to firstly invite you to share with people what exactly you do before we're going to explore how you ended up where you are and doing what you do.

Leanne Hutchinson (00:18)

So I'm a single-parent coach. I work with single parents, both mums and dads that are going through their breakup. A lot of them are in that phase where they're transitioning from going into their breakup. They're just becoming a single parent for the first time, just learning to adjust with those emotions and learning to get through that breakup. There's also other parents I work with that are further along that are looking into blending families, they're repartnered back in the dating world, and they're just trying to get out of that dating cycle that they just keep getting caught up in that gets them nowhere. So mainly working with single parents and helping them to handle their life in a better way, that's more beneficial for them.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (00:59)

Wonderful. So what led you to do this, and what led you to become a single parent as well?

Leanne Hutchinson (01:07)

Well, I have a background in coaching and counselling, but when I broke up with my daughter's father, gosh, about 12 years ago, it was very high conflict, very toxic. I walked out with nothing but my daughter and a suitcase of clothes. And where I'm living, I had no other family around me at the time. And I'm just...

I was alone, very much alone. And what made it even harder was when I was going through that, my friends conveniently believed his version of the breakup. So I also lost my friends through that. So that was really adding salt to the wound. And I remember saying that when I get through this, I wanna come out and do what I can to grow as a person so I can give back.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (01:46)

Yeah.

Leanne Hutchinson (01:58)

And I also remember that when I was going through it, I saw a therapist, and even though she was lovely, she was great. I just felt like I didn't have that connection because she'd never been through that herself. You know, she was able to still give support and advice, but I feel like you can connect a lot more with someone who's actually been through what you've been through. And that's why I'm so passionate about what I do.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (02:22)

I completely agree that you can't really imagine the reality, the day-to-day reality of that sort of situation, unless you have lived in it, because there are the small details and also the reality at 2 am or

Leanne Hutchinson (02:37)

100%.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (02:47)

Dinner time is totally different than the glimpse that someone might get of a situation when chatting with someone in the middle of the day about a situation.

Leanne Hutchinson (02:55)

Yep. Yeah, it's, it's very different just being in and, you know, like you can put a question out to someone on Facebook and say, Hey, what should I do in this situation? But quite often, they're going to respond from their breakup story. They're not giving you support. They're saying this is what I went through. So you should do this. It's not always the best advice. So with my line of work, there's no judgment. There's no, your ex is an asshole, this has happened, it's okay, let's look at what's happened. How can we make this better for you? It's very neutral, neutral playing field here, no judgment, just let's make this better for you.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (03:35)

Right, right. You mentioned counselling. Is that what you worked in before becoming a coach?

Leanne Hutchinson (03:40)

Well, I started doing a degree in counselling, a bachelor's degree, but I was going, I was doing that when I broke up with my daughter's father. And just due to single-parent life and everything like that, I got three-quarters of the way through and didn't finish. So I have completed all the counselling components and done all the main parts of it, but there's just a small portion. And it's one of those things you just keep, I'll go back to it, I'll go back to it, but it's.

You know, so that's why I don't call myself a counsellor. I've done the counselling modules and what's needed, but I have done the coaching work.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (04:15)

It's amazing that you did find a way to support people before completing years of formal steps. The breakup. I'm wondering if you agree that especially post COVID, it seems like there's such a trend for breakups, especially in recent years.

Leanne Hutchinson (04:39)

I do feel like it is becoming way too, I don't know if I would say easy. I feel like people are giving up too easily. And I don't know if that's got to do with social media. I think that would probably have a huge part in it. And that's possibly relates to the comment that I just said when people go on Facebook and give an opinion and everyone's like, no, leave them, get out. You shouldn't stay, red flag and all these things. It's like, but hold on.

You don't know the whole story, you're only hearing a small little snippet. They may still be able to make that relationship work. I feel like there's, I mean, I could be wrong. I'm not here to comment on everyone, but from what I see, I feel like a lot of people are giving up way too easy and not doing everything they can to make the relationship work.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (05:28)

Yes. Do you think everything has been a red flag these days?

Leanne Hutchinson (05:33)

I think that gets way overused. I think people are labelling things. And I talk about this a bit on my podcast as well. People are putting way too much focus on labelling things without actually looking at, okay, what is going on? It's like the word narcissist. If you're a narcissist, you're a narcissist. It's like, hold on. They may have said something you don't like. It doesn't mean they're a narcissist. So I think there needs to be more focus on what the actual problem is, and let's focus on, let's give this a label.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (06:05)

Yes, I agree with that for relationships and also for individuals. I live a bit north of you where the disability industry is almost religious. And whether it's that or the culture of calling everybody a narcissist, I'm not saying that nobody has a disability. I'm not saying nobody is a narcissist, but suddenly the moment, the moment that anything feels a bit

Leanne Hutchinson (06:19)

Yeah.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (06:35)

unusual. How many labels can we put on this?

Leanne Hutchinson (06:39)

Do you know what I feel like that stems from? And again, I can't comment on everything, but for me, I feel like people are using that as their identity. And quite often I see like, cause when I left my daughter's father, that was a DV relationship. And I have spoken that about, I have spoken a bit about that on my podcast, but I don't like to dwell on that because it's not my identity. I've spoken about where I am today and what got me to here, but I'm not going to sit there and say I'm a DV survivor.

And I see it a lot on social media. I'm a single mum, I left a DB relationship five years ago. It's like, I'm really sorry you went through that, but it's not who you are now. You don't need to make that the story of your life. It's hard as horrible as it is to go through that situation. And again, I don't want to disrespect anyone going through that. And I really don't, and I hope that hasn't come out in a bad way, but.

There's way too much emphasis on putting a title as someone's identity instead of, okay, I've been through that. It was a horrible situation. How can I make this better?

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (07:47)

I think what you're doing is empowering people and not shaming them because we're not discrediting the experience that people went through, and some great people in this world have gone through all sorts of things. lived through a lot as a young person. So things happen, but it's the I am a, and I can identify with what you're saying so much because in my

Leanne Hutchinson (07:51)

100 %

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (08:14)

very, very early adulthood days. There were moments when I was just a student in jeans and that's all I wanted to see myself as these days. Someone of a similar age would be making millions from TikTok. I don't understand it, but they do. And there were moments when I saw myself as a volunteer and I could not break that or a marketing worker. It's like people wanted to box me in as your writer, your this, your that. And with the single mom,

I think that the single mom label can box people in. I don't know if it boxes women into the suburbs or into extra limitations, people assuming you have less time, but do you think that any of these labels, any of the IMA, do you think it is just holding people back into a past identity instead of empowering people to redefine themselves and say, this is who I am now?

Leanne Hutchinson (09:13)

100%. 100 % and I feel like, yeah, it's holding people back. It's kind, it's like that whole victimhood mentality. This is me. I can't change because I've been through this. I'm a single mom. I can't better my life. And you know that that stigma, no matter who you are, what genre or walk of life you come from, there is going to be judgment for everyone. Even if you're wealthy, there's judgment. Oh, look at those people. They think they know better. There's judgment for every single walk of life. It's whether or not you choose to listen to that noise. It's whether or not you choose to make that your identity. Well, I'm a single mum, I must have failed. And I see a lot with my line of work, what I do, I see men all the time have a go at me, saying, You must have failed. You obviously didn't try hard enough to make the relationship work. And I sometimes think, well, buddy, first of all, I work with men here too. So I'm not a hit of gender bash anyone. Second of all, you don't know anything about my situation. So how can you even make that assumption? So I don't engage in those comments. For me, that just tells me more about them than it does anything else. And I just leave it be. it really, those judgments just come down to, are you going to believe it? Are you going to let that consume your thoughts? Or are you going to shut it out and say, no, I'm better than that. That's not me at all.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (10:39)

The, am I going to believe it, tells me that you are one of a few guests this week, emphasising that the truth is relative. It's, we all know it deep down, but people with particular roles at different times decide that their truth is gospel, and we need to question things more. Otherwise, there are so many opinions in the world that we would end up absorbed by so many conflicting opinions, and it would completely rule our lives if we didn't question it.

Leanne Hutchinson (11:14)

And I think a lot of people struggle with that. And again, I don't know if that's something to do with social media, but people struggle with other people having a different opinions. Like we're all not going to agree. And take for an example, yesterday, this won't be yesterday as this goes to air, but yesterday here in our time, it was Melbourne Cup. And there was, as you know, when it comes to Melbourne Cup time, there's a lot of controversial posts coming out about Melbourne Cup.

So I purely got on and questioned something, not agreeing or disagreeing. I made a neutral comment just making, asking why don't, why these questions only come out of Melbourne Cup? Why are they not? Why is this not put out there all the time? And I had so many negative comments directed at me, like, ⁓ you're this, you're that, you're this. And I even had someone come onto my page and say, How could you book with her? She doesn't even want to get into a debate over horse racing. And I'm like,

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (11:51)

curious.

Leanne Hutchinson (12:12)

I wasn't even getting into a bait. I merely just asked a question to the person that posted it. Curious to know why this isn't something that's put out there all the time. It's only put out one day a year. And that's the thing that people just think that you've got a different opinion. So let's attack them. Let's bring them down anyway we can.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (12:33)

Yes. Okay. My personal subjective response to that, the activism is that, gosh, I've seen a few angles. the commenting on something at a particular time of the year, most activist groups are stretched and relying on volunteers and balancing that with the rest of their lives. And I've seen time and time again, they feel strongly about something, but either

They only have the attention to focus on it at a particular time, but also, it's the classic marketing mentality of, this is this day, be it Mother's Day, whatever. And that's when people want to chime into the relevant conversation of the moment. And I think that's relevant to all of this as well, because let's face it every so often in the media or social media, there'll be…

Why don't you be more inclusive on Mother's Day or Father's Day? What about this group? What about that group? And I reached the point where some people were, I'll just say this. There was some people who were trying to downplay my realities of, well, the categories that are not the categories, but the experiences because they identify as a woman and me living my life meant that it looked like I was trying to look like more of a woman than the people who are suddenly or more newly identifying as a woman. And I felt like I'm not making a statement about someone else. I'm just doing my thing. So it sounds like what you've really drawn upon here is the very widespread dialogue that's around the world, where everything has to be a controversy.

Leanne Hutchinson (14:12)

Yeah.

Yeah, and that's a thing. The person I commented on was a media outlet. It was an Australian media outlet. And I was legitimately curious to know, but then I did get the answer. Someone did comment and say, It's because there's more awareness, and it spreads more attention. I'm like, okay, yeah, that does make sense. So I kind of got the answer I wanted, but I wasn't expecting all the tacks to go, you're this, you're that, you're angry.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (14:27)

And everything is a controversy.

Leanne Hutchinson (14:55)

I'm asking a question, and then to wake up the next morning and have someone comment on one of my posts on my business page. Don't book with her. She can't get even she can't even get into a debate over horse racing. I don't want to get in the debate. It's, but that's just it. Everyone's got to be right. No, you don't. You can respect someone that has a different opinion.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (15:16)

Yes. And frankly, I see both sides, and it's great that you are asking that question because I think what does come out of that question you asked is we do sometimes only show concern about some groups at a specific time of the year. R U OK Day is the classic example. And I think it has been coming up on the podcast once or twice before, where some people are really concerned, are people really okay? And then we're only talking about it once in the year. And I think that can really come up. People who are to come back to the single parent topic that you focus on, people can end up feeling depressed, feeling helpless, all sorts of things when they are having these life transitions. But then I think that it's very hard to maintain continuity of connection with support for all sorts of reasons, be it the, are you okay day novelty, which it's a great campaign, but it's very momentary. Meanwhile, with any sort of support or help, it can sometimes become quite momentary, or people just drift. Do you see that happening?

Leanne Hutchinson (16:15)

Mm.

Well, depending on what kind of support you're talking about, like if it's a big kind of organisational support, then yeah, I feel like that's kind of, that's now coming from more of a media plug and how is it going to benefit us financially as opposed to what help can we give you? How can we help you? But yeah, coming from a big organisational point of view, I think it's lost that personalisation.

But when it comes to support like what I do, my intent is to kind of be there as much as I can through their journey, so I can help them. I love seeing my clients in their sessions just grow from, I've had many on their first session where they're in tears and they're breaking down. Weeks down the track, they're smiling and laughing. I'm like, I love this. I love this. And that's the whole point. It's not my job to fix someone. I can't fix anyone. You can only fix yourself, but you can choose to listen to the advice and choose to take it on and choose to see things from a different angle. Your life can be a lot easier and happier.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (17:34)

Yes. I would encourage anyone to find someone who is offering to be there through the journey, because even if you talk with someone for an hour, you can do that repeatedly. I was talking with a GP in a recent recording, and the assumption in that industry is six minutes, six minutes to help someone. So it doesn't matter what the billing time says, anything like that. The assumption is they can basically go up to the next billing category when it's six minutes instead of five.

Leanne Hutchinson (18:10)

And let's be honest, that support is not personalised. That support is okay. What do you need so we can write your script, and we can get some commission from that?

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (18:19)

Precisely. That's actually, I'm not sure about the commission side. I did hear, and we won't recap that one. People go and listen to that one, but there's cheaper, more accessible professional development that sessions run by pharmaceutical brands. That's how that all works. But they only have time to see, okay, what are these symptoms? a thing, write a script. Absolutely. So.

Leanne Hutchinson (18:42)

X amount.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (18:48)

So that's going on with the GP, but I've really seen, I've learned the hard way that personally and professionally, we need to find people who can be around beyond those quick fixes because, because of course, sometimes you will need to go to a doctor or, know, you need those quick helps go to the emergency department, whatever, but

Beyond that initial one, that's a great example as well. You know, someone reaches rock bottom, they go to the emergency department, and seriously, often the trend is for someone to just be out and on their way, and no one follows up with them ever again. You need someone who's on the journey with you to really go from your rock bottom to the next step to becoming the person that you want to be. Is that what you aim for?

Leanne Hutchinson (19:36)

Yep.

Yeah, exactly. And that's what I try and do with my line of work. Like, I have that weekly podcast. So it's, even though that's not directed at someone personally, it's that extra bit of that hit of support that they can get without having to book a session. And those that I do see frequently, I do have a lot of them that check in via, like they might DM me through Instagram or through email, and they will just - something's happened and they need to check in and I'm happy. Don't say, No, sorry, you haven't booked a session. That's what I'm here for. I'm here to check in and offer that support. That's my job as your coach to help you. You got a message, you're stuck on something, message me, and I'm here for you. And that's because, sorry to cut you off there, because there's someone there that's been there and just felt so alone. I wanna know that.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (20:20)

Thank

Yes.

Leanne Hutchinson (20:27)

I don't want them to be alone. I don't want them to feel stuck. I'm here to help you. I want you to get through this messy period.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (20:35)

You are there for people. And I'm so curious. We're talking about not being alone. And you were on the central coast when you had your split. I've seen the central coast. It's a lot more quiet than places like Sydney. And anyone could be listening to this recording who could be going through something in a place where they are not surrounded by people and surrounded by anyone to turn to. So I'm wondering what was that feeling for you and how did you grow to find your next people?

Leanne Hutchinson (21:11)

It was very lonely without a doubt, and like losing your friends, and my daughter wasn't even in school yet. She was that young, and so it was just that I ended up having to put her in daycare because I thought, you know, I was just an emotional mess. So that was her break from me by putting her in daycare so to speak and you know I didn't really start making friends until she went to school, but still like I'm at a place now where, and I was actually just saying to this to someone yesterday, I know a lot of people, but my friend group is very, very tiny. And I'm okay with that. I'm very fussy with who I let in because I think that's part of when you've been hurt in the past, you are very cautious. But then also it's on the flip side of that. I don't want to let people in that are just going to drain my energy either. you know, and eventually

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (22:03)

Thank

Leanne Hutchinson (22:10)

to meet new people, this is another thing I kind of work on as well. It comes down to being more confident in yourself and putting yourself out there. I see it a lot with single parents. I've got no friends, I've got no one else. Are you doing anything to make new friends, or are you just hoping that they're gonna knock on your door? Because, yep.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (22:26)

I'd love to comment on that.

Join groups. Join groups because that's a crucial step, and we are connecting in a podcast. We've connected remotely, but although that's a great first step and there'll be, there'll be online gatherings, and that's a starting point, but would you agree finding people locally, anywhere, frankly, there are even some groups where you don't have to totally believe what they believe, but if they are

Human beings who are trying to look after their fellow human beings, whatever they are into, do you agree? Just find anyone nearby.

Leanne Hutchinson (23:03)

100 %

And the thing is, and this is again, I'm gonna mention it, social media. This is the positive of social media. It does have its positives, and there are groups, but everything these days, everything, and they're like this dog walking groups. There are elderly walking groups. There's there's groups for everything, like dancing, and I know there's social groups, as dating groups as… Join a group. Join a hobby, join an art class. And there's so many things that I want to do, but I just sometimes my role as a business owner and a mum, it just doesn't allow me to do everything that I want to do. But I'm also at a place where if my daughter's not with me, she's at a dad's, I'm not sitting here lost and going, no, I'm on my own. What am I going to do? She was at a friend's all weekend for a birthday, and she was out for trick-or-treating. And so I didn't spend much time with her, but I filled it up with things for me. And I went out and did things. I went out and had Reiki and did all this nice stuff for me. That's what it's about. You can get out and make friends, but not everyone is going to make the right friends. But it's also about getting out there and doing things that you enjoy. And that's how you can also make friends by doing the things that you enjoy because you're going to meet like-minded people that doing something that you that you also like, whether that's the gym, whether that's an art class, whether that's

Anything. A hobby.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (24:30)

Anything.

If you even go to a group where you're not chatting and making conversation the whole time, like the gym, yoga, anything like that. I found in my personal experience following yoga that eventually people would say, I've seen you here and it becomes familiar faces. That's a good step. And then you can, if people want to chat when they have a moment, they ask for that, then that's an extra bonus for sure.

Leanne Hutchinson (24:51)

Yeah.

Yep.

Yeah. And just even like going out for coffee. I've just started going to a new coffee place because I love their coffee, and they've now won my business. But now every day I walk in there like morning Leanne, and it that's nice. And that just feels welcoming in itself. And then the owner comes over and sits down and has a chat with me, every now and then, it's like, you know, you're not my best friend, but it's nice. It just makes you feel like you've made a friend. And that's what it's all about. Just getting out there and saying hi to people and slowly getting out of your comfort zone. That's what it comes down to.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (25:31)

Coffee is a great example, and coffee is almost everywhere, and unless someone is really not into caffeine, and oh yes, if you need something that's not caffeinated, fine. But the coffee places, I know someone who does some of the best coffee in the area quite seriously. I'll let you know afterwards. So I'm not just plugging that place every few episodes, but I was going to that place before I really got to know the people who run it.

Leanne Hutchinson (25:35)

Yes! Yes!

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (26:00)

And it was like a little sanctuary. I could sit there and I know this is a safe space. And I just felt calm in that space. And what I learned then, chatting with those people more, I eventually realised that for those who have the time to make coffee, to make coffee for people, and they enjoy it. Some of them not all, but some actually like the conversation and

Leanne Hutchinson (26:12)

Yeah.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (26:30)

They'll get conversations with people from all walks of life because we all need that pick-me-up, that energy. So you can, in the right situations, in the right spaces, you can make a bit of conversation with people. So that's it. That's a great example that you used, but I do want to take it a step further and say, I'm wondering if you. Pursued professional development as a way to feel.

Leanne Hutchinson (26:42)

100%. Yep. Yep.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (26:59)

Like you were growing and thriving after your split, you made great steps to become a coach, and you would have connected with people who helped you in that journey.

Leanne Hutchinson (27:12)

Well, prior to this business, what I'm doing now with Life After Plus One, I also had another business. And when I was in that, again, single mom, solo business owner, so was on my own. So I got out and did a lot of networking events. And that's how I met a lot of local business owners. So I made a very good network of friends and that's another great way, and people just think you're a solo business owner I can't I don't have employees get out of network go to networking events there's so many around these days but when you're saying development are you saying like what what did I do for myself is that what else you mean or

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (27:53)

whether it's connecting with course providers or whether it's learning something independently or connecting, think networking is amazing. And I'll comment on that, but any of the above anything.

Leanne Hutchinson (28:02)

Yeah.

So for me also, another part that I don't really speak out on a lot because it's for me, it's in my past. I don't dwell on that past for too much, but in 06, I was actually married to someone, were together for 12 years, but we only married for 18 months, didn't last, were high school loves and it was just, anyway, cut a long story short, when we broke up in 2006, that's when I got into a lot of things like Wayne's Wire.

Deepak Chopra, podcasts weren't really a thing then, but I was listening to Oprah on CDs and all that kind of thing. So that's where, for me, that all started. All those books and all that. I was always big on that. And then as time went on, I was getting more and more into it. And each time I learnt that when I was dating people throughout the years, I learned to actually step back and go, okay, what can I take away from this? And that's the biggest thing. And that's one thing I really, really talk about a lot with my line of work. You're not going through this period because the universe is telling you you're an asshole. You're going through this because it's the summit key you need to learn. And that's the biggest thing I took away from whether it be a breakup or a shitty situation I went through, or a period where I'm like, shit, I can't even afford dinner tonight. What do I do? Okay. What can I learn from this? And that's the biggest takeaway I've, I've kind of learned from any hardship I've been through as a single mom. There is always something that we can take away from that, no matter how rock bottom your life has been. There's, and that's how I've learned to grow and um, be stronger in myself. I don't look at it as in, oh shit, okay, I can't afford dinner. Oh well, I've moved in here and we've got to sleep on a blow-up mattress. It's no, okay, this happened. Now, let's do better. Let's grow from this. That's for me, the way I look at things. I need to keep going. I need to kind of do better than what I was, not just for me, but for my daughter.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (30:15)

Yes, the dating experience can show you what you don't want and who you want to become.

Leanne Hutchinson (30:20)

Yep. Yeah, there's so much you can learn. I think that's just it. People take it so personally. Oh, they didn't like me. It didn't work. They didn't call me. They didn't text me back. Okay, they weren't the one. There is billions of people in the world. Trust me, you'll find someone else. And I see that a lot in my line of work. I'm going to be single. No one's ever going to want me now. Why? Because one person didn't want you. Does that mean everybody else is not going to want you? It's just one situation. And that's that's the whole thing. It's about just step back and look at it from, take your blinkers off and have a look, okay, what's happening here and what can I take away from this?

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (30:57)

Yes, absolutely. The dating experience is so much more complex for sure when you are a single parent or even when you're in a different stage of life. What really shocked me, and I'm so curious about your perspective on this, the apps. So before I started getting out there a few years ago,

I would say that, I'd say that a decade ago is just meeting people in community groups. And I had no idea what the apps were like. And I'm wondering if you meet people or with your own experience where the apps, there is something people need to learn to avoid the hard way, or what's your take on all that.

Leanne Hutchinson (31:46)

You know what, I'm not gonna lie, I've got a profile there, but I'm not active. Because for me personally, I'm okay being single, I have no problems, I'm not trying to rush the process. I'm a big believer in the right person's gonna come at the right time. So I'm not trying to force anything, I'm not trying to rush anything. But for me, I can't do surface-based conversation. I can't do the whole texting. How was your day?

What'd you get up to? It's like, you're not really getting to know me. I can't do this. I can't engage. And so I quickly get, I get lost in a very, well, I just lose interest very quickly. Cause I'm like, this is, I can't, I can't do this. So part of me is like, do I want to try and really give it a go? Or do I want to just step back and just focus on meeting someone organically? Because that's what I want. I want someone that sees me for who I am. This is me. This is what you get.

like me or hate me, you know, sort of thing. I think also at the end of the day, it's very important to remember, especially as you're older as a single parent and you've been through a lot more, you're carrying a lot more emotional baggage, you're dealing with hundreds, if not thousands, of other people that are also carrying all this emotional baggage. So it's like one big, one big place with all these wounded, hurt people trying to find someone that's gonna make them happier. And that's the problem. So many people are just looking for someone to make them happy. You need to make yourself happy first. Focus on making yourself happy, not focusing on someone to make you happy. And again, this is something I speak a lot on my podcast. Like people go into dating, not knowing what they want. They just know, I want a partner. So let's just hope for the best. And then they go through this same toxic dating cycle where they keep breaking up the same way because you're doing the same thing. You have a different person, but you're going into these different relationships doing the exact same things. Nothing's changing. And that's the whole idea. And that is why, and what I gain, what I talk about a lot, why it's so important to let go of this emotional baggage, to let go of this hurt, because you're unconsciously taking it into all these new relationships. You're going in guarded. You're going in not trusting. You're not opening up fully. So you're not being authentic. They're not seeing the true you because you're scared to open up. You might be comparing them to your exes, all these different little things that come into play. And it's not necessarily that the apps are bad, it's the people on them that are carrying all this and using it to judge all these people that they're talking to.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (34:27)

Do you think some of them are treating the app space or the whole scene like a band-aid?

Leanne Hutchinson (34:36)

100%, 100%. I see quite often, and I've seen some posts on Facebook and I've seen people talk to me about this saying, like there's people that have come to me, they're not even broken up yet. And they're they're focused on, I don't think I'm gonna find someone else. And I'm like, let me just stop you right there. That is not your focus right now. First of all, you will find someone else, but second of all, your focus needs to be getting through this breakup.

Will or will someone date me? You know what I was trying to say. But yes, and I saw something a couple of months ago, someone posted in this group on Facebook. It was like a 20-year relationship. And she's like, I don't want to wait 12 months or however long it is until the divorce is finalised, so I start dating again. I want to start dating now. What should I do? And I'm thinking, you've just come out of a 20-year relationship and you can't wait till your divorce is finalised to start dating. You need to do it now.

That's telling me she's not dating because she wants to find someone. She's dating because she doesn't; she's scared to be on her own. She's scared to do life on her own. She's scared to deal with everything. And that's quite often you see these rebound relationships. They're the people that are not dealing with anything. Let's just use this to fix me. Let's just use this to make me feel better. Let's just use this to show that, see, there's nothing wrong with me. I'm fine. This person likes me. It is a massive band-aid for a lot of people.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (36:03)

It can even be an ego boost, but yeah, I've seen both angles to it because sometimes I met people that were so amazing. thought, Wow, why is this person even talking to me? And that says plenty about my insecurity. But then those people ended up showing me, okay, what do I need to become? And I hope that more people can ask themselves, okay, what do I need to become instead of just who do I need to find? Do you think so?

Leanne Hutchinson (36:05)

100 %! Yep.

Yeah, and I think a lot of people, I think a lot of people putting their focus on, okay, this person's talking to me. I'm seeing a lot of red flags. I'm not sure, but they seem okay, so it must be all right. They just keep lowering their standards, and they're selling in relationships that they know are not healthy because they just think this must be the person because they got some sort of okay banter going, they've got some sort of okay conversation going. But there's so much more to building a relationship than having an okay conversation.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (37:11)

Comment on the banter part. I think part of the problem, you identified it earlier on the apps, you're lucky to get more than how was your weekend. The moment someone can hold a conversation, it feels like a miracle.

Leanne Hutchinson (37:23)

Yeah, well that's true too and I think that's when people think well this must be the one, this must be the person and then they meet up in real life it's like ⁓ I don't like this, all these red flags are happening or they don't have this or they can't do this and you know realistically it's not the kind of person that you're wanting but you've got a good conversation so it must be right, it must be okay so people overlook all these things they convince themselves must be the right person but instead of just going

They're a nice person, but they're not my type. It is okay to do that. And I think we need to normalise that more often. You can have a nice conversation with someone, but it doesn't mean they're going to be your perfect match.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (38:04)

Yes. And I'm curious if you recommend to meet earlier instead of just chatting online for a week or months without actually testing that out.

Leanne Hutchinson (38:16)

Yeah, I think that comes down to personal preference, and also when you're single-parenting, that comes down to time a lot as well. I know that's a big issue working out when you got a free weekend and stuff like that. So that's, you know, that is, it's all preference and how well you've spoken. For me I'm a big believer in having a good phone conversation. I personally will not meet anybody unless we've spoken on the phone. And I've actually chatted to people not recently, but a while ago. And he said to me, well, I won't meet somebody. No, I won't speak to somebody on the phone until we've actually met up in person. And I said, well, sorry, I do it the other way around. I want to speak to you on the phone first to make sure you're genuine, make sure we can hold up a good conversation before I actually meet you.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (39:02)

Do you know why that person does it the opposite way?

Leanne Hutchinson (39:04)

No, that died off pretty quickly. But no, I thought that was very interesting. But you do see it a lot. People are just not confident to speak on the phone. People don't feel comfortable to do it. And so they just avoid it. People are happy just to do the endless back-and-forth messaging. But for me, again, I find that surf space, you're not actually getting to know someone because when you're doing the constant back and forth messaging, it's all just the, was your day? What'd you get up to? What are you doing this weekend? Yeah, cut and paste, whatever.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (39:31)

praises.

Leanne Hutchinson (39:35)

Let's see how that lands. And you're not getting to know someone. I don't think, one of the biggest things I always talk about is there's no rush. You don't have to rush anything. If you're just meeting someone or start chatting with someone, or the sun's going good, or let's meet up tomorrow night, you don't have to rush anything. There's no time limit. Just because we're older or we're single parents doesn't mean you've got to handle the dating world much quicker.

I think it's actually smarter to do it a lot slower, so you actually know for sure what you're getting into because you've got more to lose.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (40:09)

Run it.

Right, because you have a family, because you're more than yourself.

Leanne Hutchinson (40:14)

You've got your kid, don't want to have to date someone and drag this person into your world, and then introduce them to your kid, and all of a sudden, you might move in together, and you're like, oh, this isn't what I wanted. Let's break up again. Then you got to move. Your kids are being impacted again. It's like you've already been to a big breakup, whether it's your divorce or defacto breakdown, relationship breakdown. That in itself is a huge deal. You don't want to have to go through something like that again, unless you don't have to. Now I'm not saying that you can completely avoid going through a breakup. That's just impossible. No one can avoid that. But you can be a lot more cautious and a lot more careful the way you approach it when you're not rushing things, when you're going in there with realistic expectations. And because when you're still caught up from the breakup and you're going into the dating world, that's when you take it so personally. Why'd they leave? And you give those people trying to force them to come back or start texting them all the time, and going past their house and stalking them. It's like, what are you doing? Because it happens, these things happen a lot. Because if they were comfortable in themselves and they were confident in where they're at in life, they wouldn't feel the need to chase anybody. And that again, all comes down to the same thing about letting go of all these emotions and that hurt and that anger from the breakup.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (41:15)

Gosh.

Leanne Hutchinson (41:34)

before you go into the dating world because even you're carrying all this, especially as a single parent, you're carrying all that hurt from that your ex-husband or your ex-wife or whoever else and you're going into the dating world, you're taking all that with you and quite often you're going to dump it onto this new person without even realizing.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (41:50)

Do you see people sometimes even holding onto the baggage of the dating experiences after a long-term relationship?

Leanne Hutchinson (41:59)

100

% and you see it often like that first relationship breakup after a divorce is always one of the hardest and people don't understand why and you see it all the time because when you've come out of a divorce or break up with your kids other parent and all of a sudden someone starts giving you attention you're like wow this is what I never got this is what I was needing when I was married this is what I'm after yes hallelujah and then all of a sudden

Two or three months down the track, and it's over, and you're like, what just happened? Because you overlooked everything else. There's all these red flags that were happening, but you overlooked because you just saw that they were giving you some attention that you needed. They were giving you what you needed at the time. They weren't your perfect match. They weren't your ideal partner. They were giving you that attention that you're craving that you never got in that relationship with your ex-husband or your ex-wife or whoever else it was. And all of a sudden, you're getting it.

Yes, this is it. So that's why you feel so much, you feel, you get so more let down and so more, you feel much more, that's not the right way to phrase it. You feel hurt so much more because you had so much, your expectations of this was so high. You've gone in thinking, yes, this is the person. This is what I didn't get in my marriage or my relationship. I've now got it here. Then all of a sudden, boom, it's all died off.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (43:22)

wondering if you've seen people putting even more characteristics on a pedestal. It's partly the attention. I think also a lot of people come out of a long-term relationship thinking, why couldn't this person have been more ambitious like I am or, or whatever it might be or been more tidy. And frankly, that sounds small, but if things get really messy, whatever it might be, why couldn't they have, and then

You get out there and for days, weeks, or months, you see someone who ticks some of the boxes, even though there are red flags in other spaces. And it's like they are filling a gap because just like the process of getting on your feet and functioning as a single parent instead of a two-person parenting situation, just like that.

There's, do you think there's an element of this person is dragging me up back off the cliff I'm dangling down. I'm really concerned that maybe it seems like they're filling gaps, something like that.

Leanne Hutchinson (44:36)

I don't know if enough people do look at it like that. But I feel like that's just it. They see a few good things about this person and they overlook everything else because there's a few good things. Yeah, and I think that's the problem. Everything is, all this other stuff gets overlooked because they're seeing a few good things. And I see it all the time. I've met this person, they're lovely, they're this and that, but they do this, this, this, this, and this.

I'm like, you just pointed out all these things you don't like. So why are you ignoring that for these few small good things? And the thing is, this is also a big problem when people go into relationships without actually properly getting to know somebody. This is why it's so important to get to know this person, know who they are. And this also relates to a podcast episode of mine that just came out yesterday, actually, on Blending Families and the importance of knowing where you both stand before actually moving in together.

You can't just say, this is going great, let's live together. You need to know that you're both on the same page. You need to know that you both have the same expectations with the future of your relationship, with how you are around your kids, with finances, with the housework, with everything. Because quite often you see it, everything's going well, the relationship is great. Next minute you're living together, oh, but they're not helping out with finances. Oh, but they're not helping out with the kids. Oh, but they're not helping out with this. But did you discuss it beforehand? Did you know what you were getting into?

Same thing with relationships. You can't just say, but they're not clean. But they're not helping with this. But then, did you know that beforehand? Did you make an effort to get to know them? Because you can't change someone. This is who they are. If you don't like who they are, then they're not your match.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (46:16)

You need to know before getting into something what's going to be involved. And it's the details. I, I want to make myself a headline by referencing the conservative that actually made some really good points of checking. Does someone have a default in their everyday life of an open home policy as in friends can pop over whenever they want. We are like seventh heaven. Anyone can.

Rock up, or is it a closed home of this is our sanctuary, our space. We are going to keep it quiet and enclosed. Don't bring people into that so much. Or what are you going to do for Christmas? There are, there are so many little details that people don't think of, but even, me know if you agree. has to be beyond the labels of.

I want a family or I do, I don't want children or anything like that because in my experience, someone basically assumed that having a family equals literally be in a quiet house away from everything in the suburbs and revolve around that and just don't do so much else. And it's, I think there's too much assumption there. So you have to ask, do you agree? It's about asking what's this going to look like?

Leanne Hutchinson (47:35)

You just nailed it on the head, then, with the word assumption. That's the problem. People assuming, we can't assume. You've got to actually ask the question. It's just like another thing that really, really bugs me when I see this all the time on Facebook. And I'm no doubt that you would have seen as well. When people get on there and say, My partner's doing this or this has happened. I don't know what to think, or I don't know what to do, or I don't speak to your partner. This is your partner. Why are you not asking them this question?

It just blows me away. It's like, my husband just said this or my wife did this. It's like, if that is your husband or wife, why are you asking Facebook and not them?

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (48:14)

Is that what you see a lot? People asking Facebook, asking you, asking anyone else because they don't want the direct conversation.

Leanne Hutchinson (48:21)

They don't have that communication

or I don't know how they're going to react or don't know how they're going to respond. Well, that's your partner. And the thing is, if they're not going to respond in a healthy way, then why are you with this person? Because realistically, you want a partner where you can talk to about anything. If you're having problems in the relationship, if you're unsure of anything, you need to be able to go to them and say, Hey, what's actually happening? I don't, I'm not sure, I'm feeling a loss, or I'm confused, or you need to be able to have that conversation with them.

And if you're not comfortable to talk to your own partner, then that's a massive red flag in your relationship.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (48:53)

going to ask that if you can't have the conversation, does that say plenty in itself?

Leanne Hutchinson (48:58)

100 % because no relationship is ever gonna last if there's no communication. Communication is necessary. Like that is the biggest thing to make any form of relationship work, even if it's a friendship or a work relationship, anything.

Because what you just said, assume, people assume way too much. Like what we said at the beginning with that post on Facebook yesterday and everything else. People jumped down my throat, assuming things about me. It was like, That's not what I asked. I asked a simple question. People are assuming, and when they're assuming, they're thinking worst-case scenario instead of actually going to the source of the problem, saying, Hey, I heard this or I saw this. Can you explain that or what's going on?

And if you're not confident to speak to your partner, then what's happening here? Why are you not comfortable to speak to your own partner?

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (49:45)

Yes.

And the assuming, let's go back to social media for a moment. I'm fascinated by how this has been coming up so much. I think that's a really big issue. Social media, it's, look, it does bring people together. We found each other on social media. I've stayed connected with some people from years ago, and they are amazing, and it's great to keep connected. But in terms of what we expect for our lives, for our relationships, for other things,

It seems like we both believe that people are expecting an ideal or an image or something that's not the reality of things. I had someone just a couple of months ago telling me, You're doing so great and you're so successful and sure, I'm not going to put the worst of everything on social media. Come on. So people just assume everything.

Leanne Hutchinson (50:46)

Yeah.

Yeah, I remember years ago, like I think when I first broke up with my daughter's father, my sister made a comment to me saying, Oh, but I thought you were fine because you didn't put anything other, you didn't put anything different on Facebook. I'm like, of course I didn't. I'm not gonna put up and say I was, up in tears this morning, and I was lying in a ball. Of course I'm not gonna put that on Facebook. But some people do, but like look at TikTok these days. People are doing that. People are taking.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (51:04)

Wow.

Leanne Hutchinson (51:19)

You know, you've taken that for advantage, but yeah.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (51:23)

they putting the worst of their day on TikTok?

Leanne Hutchinson (51:25)

I think it is becoming a trend where especially more so on TikTok where you're seeing people, know, videos of them crying of themselves and showing them at their lowest and stuff and what they've been through. like, you know, that's, I'm sorry you've been through that, and that's terrible and that's horrible. I'm glad you're educating people, but don't sit there and dwell on it. Let's, and this is one thing I see, and I see a lot of people in my line of work do this. They're, ⁓ this is how, like they're constantly dwelling on negative things that's happened. like,

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (51:36)

wow.

Leanne Hutchinson (51:54)

But that's just creating more gender hate. That's just creating more, see, this is why I went through that. This is why that happened. It's like, let's change the angle and make it more, okay, that's happened, but let's make you a stronger person so you don't go through that again.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (52:08)

And we both have personal brands that will project some sort of angle online. So it's worth advising whoever is listening, whether you have a commercial personal brand or you're just connecting with the internet in some way. It's about the what now. And I think that the world wants some sort of authenticity in this age of AI and filtered fakes, all of that.

We know that deep down, most of us know that social media feels so fake that we crave something real on social, but you don't have to; you don't have to give people every single second of your reality on social media. You really don't. And a publicist said on the show a while ago that your customers aren't paying you to show them your entire life. And even

I saw a really old video of Jessica Simpson and Nick from a million years ago. And they said that although the cameras for their reality show would arrive when they were waking up, they admitted on a talk show that Jessica Simpson would be not really one you'd want to talk to for an hour after waking up. So they would wait until she was ready. Or if they really were just feeling grumpy and needed a moment, they'd go to a movie. Point being,

Leanne Hutchinson (53:10)

Yep, it's shy. Yep.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (53:36)

even the most exposed people who share so much of themselves, there's always something you're not, there's always something that you're not seeing and we need to, we need to edit people, edit. Do you think so?

Leanne Hutchinson (53:41)

not authentic. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah. I think that's just it. And again, going back to social media, it's made the world lose its authenticity. Like, take for example, I had someone just DM me, I think it was last night. Last night they DM'd me in the conversation. I cut the conversation off this morning, because they DMed me and I thought it was a potential client, someone interested in my work, because I commented on my post and started talking about it, wanting some advice. I'm like, okay, I gave them a voice message, gave them some support and help that they might have needed. And then after a few conversations, they're plugging their business onto me. And they're trying to say, Oh, would you want to get on and have a free chat there? So they're trying to sell a free chat to me, trying to get me on. I'm like, do you know what? I respect that you're selling your business, but I don't like the way you've approached this. Because I also said in the light and lead up to this, where it went is that you know, I'm very passionate about what I do. And I'm very passionate about the people that align with me, and know what I do and like what I do will come to me. And that was before I knew what he even did. And so for the way he just kind of approached me, like he was wanting to know about my work and wanting to know something about co-parenting, like it was a topic on co-parenting. So here I am thinking he's a single dad wanting some advice about his ex. And then he just twisted it, saying, I can get you more clients. I can get you this. Like, I don't like the way that landed. I mean, I respect that you're trying to get business, but this just goes back to my point of being authentic.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (55:04)

Was he not?

Leanne Hutchinson (55:15)

You know, and that's what I said to him. Don't, there was nothing authentic. I don't like the way you approach me. If you just come to me from a different angle, just being straight up honest and say, Hey, I can get you more clients. This is what I do. Would you be interested? I probably would have said no, but I would have been more respectful of the way he approached it. But just to come in at me and pretend like you're fake interested in what I do, talking about co-parenting, asking questions about it. So I'm giving him voice messages, thinking, okay, this guy needs some support. He needs some help.

No, no, he just wanted more business, and this is what I'm getting at. Just be authentic. Just be you.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (55:50)

Yes, yes. You need to, you need to be honest about your intentions with something. And I've been following a few amazing role models where I'm saying, look, I don't feel like now is the right time. Often some people interpret that as a no, some will understand it's really do follow and adore what you're doing, but pretty soon, at the right time, I'll get involved with this, but then there will be others who are

Leanne Hutchinson (55:56)

Yeah.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (56:20)

Just selling something, and do you think that people don't know how to sell sensibly these days, when everybody is selling something?

Leanne Hutchinson (56:27)

I think so. Like, that's probably the hardest part of running a business, really. You know, you can be so passionate about what you do, but it's the selling part can be the hardest, the approach. But I've always been someone that comes from an angle of I've never forced anything onto anyone. For me, all of my clients have come to me. I've because for me, I don't like it when people come and force things on me. So I'm not going to be someone that does that to somebody else. ⁓

But it is a tricky thing. Especially in this day and age, people want more bookings. You know, again, social media, you see all these constant people, six-figure months, all these kinds of things. And people are like, I'm doing something wrong. I should be getting more clients. I should be getting more. I should be doing this. I should be doing that. People are constantly comparing, sorry.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (57:12)

I can hear

the hype and the panic of how you're even vocalising that.

Leanne Hutchinson (57:21)

But see, it doesn't bother me. I'm happy to focus on me and my work and what I do, but you see it a lot. everything, there's so many business coaches and Instagram experts at six, that's what they're focused on. Get six-figure months. And so I feel like that has taken away the approach of when it comes to selling, people more like, let's just sell, sell, sell, sell, sell. It's like, how about you just focus on being real? Just focus on being you.

And I know it's hard because being you doesn't necessarily sell, but I also am a big believer that when you're being authentically you, you will find your right people.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (58:01)

You will need to project your value and what you provide in a way that shows people your real you, because I could very clearly see from the get-go. I think it was, so your brand is called, what's your brand name? Yes. Wanted to make sure I get to that. Right. Life after plus one. There's no confusion about what you're about. So that was, that was something that told people, okay,

Leanne Hutchinson (58:06)

Yeah.

who I have to plus one.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (58:31)

You clearly have life experience, and this is what you're about. But I think the grey area is when people have a presence online, but you wonder what they do? And some people approached me and they sort of seemed a bit keen to do something, but then it turned out to be your classic MLM with just random consumer products to wait for their own. That's not my thing.

Leanne Hutchinson (58:55)

Yep.

Yep.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (58:58)

So you need to just know what someone is about.

Leanne Hutchinson (59:01)

Yeah, yeah, definitely. But you know, like I just said, I don't like to force things. It's not what I do. And I'm also respectful of being a single parent. Finances is not your top priority. Well, it's not something that people can just go splashing money around on. So I'm totally respectful of that. I understand that. And that's the time where you do need to be more cautious of money. So I'm not gonna force myself on anyone because...

I know what it was like when I was a single parent. Like I said earlier, I was struggling to put food on the table. I just didn't know how I was going to make ends meet. So I can't say here you need my services, but don't worry about eating for the week. You know, so I've got to be realistic with my with my niche as well.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (59:42)

You understand your audience and their priorities, definitely.

Leanne Hutchinson (59:44)

Yeah. Yeah.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (59:49)

So overall, it looks like we've ended up identifying that whether it's dating or finding the next step after a split or even how we relate to anyone online, the common thread here is about being real about who we are now and who we are going to be.

Leanne Hutchinson (1:00:09)

Yeah, yeah, 100%. Don't let social media turn you into somebody else. Don't feel like you need to compete or compare. And this is the biggest thing that I always focus on in my work. Just focus on being better than who you were. And it was funny, I just dropped my daughter off at school, dropped her off this morning, and I'm driving home. like, I need to set some goals. I need to start setting some more goals. Because I'm very big on doing that. I can, done that, yep, done that. And it gives you something to look forward to. And when you're doing goal, when you're having goals and having something to tick off.

You know that you're actually achieving stuff, and you know that you're actually doing better than what you did last month or the month before, and that's the point. Focus on doing better than you. Focus on doing better than what you did last month or last year. Don't worry about what Jane's doing or what Tom's doing, or stop comparing yourself to anyone on social media. Just stay in your lane.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (1:01:01)

Stay in your lane. Stay in your lane for sure. And the one thing I like to do at the end of these conversations is always invite the opportunity for three nearly universal lessons or actions that people can take, because you're focusing on life after plus one, people are going to transition into any sort of next stage.

And that's always going to be shifting into an unknown, shifting into a brave step. I'm wondering what three things someone should be doing in their next chapter?

Leanne Hutchinson (1:01:36)

Three things that I would suggest to focus on, just off the top of my head quickly. Your confidence is a huge thing. And I say all the time, you can have two people doing the exact same things, but you can have someone up here and you can have someone down here because they've had the confidence to put themselves out more. Your confidence plays a huge role in every part of your life. So get your confidence back up, just learn to accept reality. know, hardships are not something, as I said earlier, to tell you that you're an idiot, you messed up. Hardships are just a lesson that you can learn from. So look at the lesson in what you've been through and use it to take you up to the next level. Third one, ⁓ goodness, confidence lesson.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (1:02:29)

Reality.

Leanne Hutchinson (1:02:32)

Just stay in your lane. Stay in lane. Focus on you, especially when you're co-parenting, because it's easy when you're co-parenting to get into arguments with your ex, fighting with them, trying to prove a point, wanting an apology, wanting an explanation, wanting them to see your point of view. It's never going to happen. Stay in your lane. Focus on you. Focus on how you show up as a mom or a dad, and focus on how you show up for your kids. That's it. Confidence. Stay in your lane.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (1:02:34)

In your lane, as in focus on you.

Leanne Hutchinson (1:03:03)

I can't remember what I said in the second one. Anyway.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (1:03:03)

and you.

Okay. It was to look and behave with confidence, and you're welcome to pop on another time to explore confidence as a whole thing in itself. I feel like that's crucial. confidence and stay. And the next one was reality. Accept your current situation or reality without staying in it. Learn from it without letting it reflect on you. Don't let it shame you, but just see this is what there is.

Leanne Hutchinson (1:03:27)

LONG LESSON

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (1:03:37)

And then the other one was to be in your lane and focus on you, and remember that you can change yourself more than you can change other people.

Leanne, thanks for the wisdom.

Leanne Hutchinson (1:03:50)

Thanks for having me.

Show Notes ## Episode title From Newsroom Survival to Nervous-System Sovereignty: Journalist-Turned-Coach Clara Ritger

## Episode description

Documentary filmmaker and former Capitol Hill journalist Clara Ritger pulls back the curtain on U.S. media grind culture—$32k starter salaries, 24/7 Slack pings, and "always urgent" news cycles—while navigating a six-year health spiral after a ruptured appendix. We trace how chronic stress and unprocessed trauma can manifest physically, why "wellness rooms" aren't a fix, and how Clara rebuilt with boundaries, travel, and meditation. She's now a trauma-informed coach and meditation teacher sharing free, practical tools (including a DIY solo-retreat guide) so high performers can regulate, not just "cope."

> Note: Personal experiences and opinions only; this episode is not medical advice.

## Guest

**Clara Ritger — Trauma-Informed Coach & Meditation Teacher (ex-journalist/filmmaker)**

* Began as a Hill reporter in Washington, D.C. (2013; ACA rollout coverage), then a decade in documentary/news (NBC News, Wall Street Journal), NYC-based with nationwide shoots.

* Freelance years marked by high stress, low predictability, and health crises following a 2016 appendiceal rupture and major abdominal surgery.

* Certified trauma-informed coach and meditation teacher; writes the healing/travel newsletter **Adventure to Awaken**.

## Host

**Melanie Suzanne Wilson** — Speaker, mentor, and host of The Motivate Collective Podcast.

## Chapters (timestamps)

* **00:00** Welcome & Clara's origin story in U.S. media

* **00:24** Hill reporting during the ACA rollout; under-resourced newsrooms

* **02:45** 24/7 news → social algorithms: speed > depth

* **04:17** Survival mode: freelancing, "always on," and Slack at 7 am

* **06:22** Culture snapshot: obits on standby & 45-minute panic window

* **06:36** Money talk: $32k in D.C.; optics vs. affordability

* **09:30** 2016 appendix rupture → years of pain, procedures & masking at work

* **11:49** Freelance fear of asking for accommodations; grief traded for gigs

* **13:52** The hidden costs of "showing up" while shut down

* **17:07** Body keeps the score: chronic stress → physical breakdown

* **20:58** Two forces: economic pressure & purpose-driven overwork

* **24:19** Breaking point: "I won't make it to retirement" → burn it down & leave NYC

* **26:01** "We can see it, but it doesn't fit any post-op pattern" → talk of exploratory surgery

* **27:54** U.S. medical bills as a freelancer; denied colonoscopy claim

* **30:11** Trauma, cPTSD & constant fight/flight; why certain jobs "fit" dysregulation

* **33:31** Comfort zone = discomfort; resetting the nervous system set-point

* **36:47** Work cultures that reward panic; evaluating your environment

* **38:02** "Save your life before it's too late": incremental change vs. starting over

* **40:12** What regulation is (and isn't); ecosystems, KPIs, and humanity

* **43:01** Wellness theater vs. real supports; meditation as a leverage tool

* **46:21** "Wellness rooms," calendars, and the gap between policy & practice

* **48:46** Making wellness a way of life, not a calendar block

* **50:29** Therapy access & costs; EQ as professional upskilling

* **53:52** Communities for prevention & shared wisdom

* **54:46** Clara's 3 actionable tips (walk, meditate, solo retreat guide)

* **58:35** Closing gratitude

## Key takeaways

* **The newsroom body burden:** "Always urgent" cultures keep nervous systems stuck in fight/flight; performance rises short-term while repair shuts down.

* **Hidden costs of coping:** Masking pain, skipping grief, and deferring boundaries often surface as physical symptoms later.

* **Dysregulation can look like competence:** People with cPTSD may excel in crises, then unconsciously choose crisis-rich careers.

* **Regulation ≠ constant calm:** It's the ability to shift **in and out** of stress—prioritising, pausing, then re-engaging.

* **Policy vs. practice:** Wellness rooms and yoga stipends don't help if calendars and expectations never allow use.

* **Leverage practices:** Short walks, daily meditation, and peer communities build clarity, boundaries, and sustainable pace.

* **Small changes early beat total reset:** Adjust roles/environments before everything collapses.

## Memorable quotes

* "**You don't see the steps that lead up to crisis—you only see the diagnosis.**" — Clara

* "**My comfort zone had become discomfort.**" — Clara

* "**A regulated nervous system isn't peaceful—it's adaptable.**" — Clara

* "**Save your life before it's too late.**" — Clara

## Resources & mentions (as discussed)

* **AdventureToAwaken.com** — Clara's newsletter; includes a free **Solo Retreat Guide** (5-day, self-guided; meditations, gentle yoga, recipes).

* Meditation (Clara teaches instinctive meditation; social: **@ClaraRitger**).

* Concepts: cPTSD, "body keeps the score," nervous-system regulation, workplace boundaries.

## Actionable tips (from Clara)

1. **Five-minute walk break:** When urgency spikes, leave the room, walk outside, reset—then return with clarity.

2. **Learn to meditate:** 20 minutes daily can improve prioritisation, boundaries, and presence long after the session.

3. **Try a DIY retreat:** Use Clara's free Solo Retreat Guide to create a restorative day or weekend without expensive travel.

## Disclaimers

* This episode shares personal experiences and opinions. It is **not medical advice**. For diagnosis or treatment, consult a qualified professional.

## Call to action

* **Follow/subscribe** on Spotify or Apple Podcasts.

* **Share** with someone navigating burnout or newsroom-style urgency.

* Drop a review with your question for **Part 2** with Clara.

## Credits

* **Host:** Melanie Suzanne Wilson

* **Guest:** Clara Ritger

* **Producer:** The Motivate Collective

* **Music/Editing:** The Motivate Collective Team

## Episode tags

#burnout #journalism #documentary #nervoussystem #traumainformed #meditation #cPTSD #workplacewellbeing #boundaries #selfregulation #DIYretreat #wellnessatwork

Transcript

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (00:00)

Clara, welcome to the podcast. It's a privilege to have you on the show.

Clara Ritger (00:05)

Thank you so much for having me.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (00:08)

You have quite a story, and I'm really excited for everybody to hear about your journey. Let's start with sharing your experience working in media in America.

Clara Ritger (00:24)

Yeah, well, it's probably as stressful as you imagine it to be. I graduated college and started working as a journalist on Capitol Hill in Washington, DC. This was in 2013, so this was during the Obama presidency, but during the rollout of the Affordable Care Act and I was assigned to that story, which wound up being like the AP news story of the year because of how disastrous that rollout was. So I was covering like the basically, the collapse of the health exchange marketplaces and just how much of a mess it was. And so many late nights, constantly on my phone, nights and weekends. ⁓ After about a year of that, I thought I can't do this anymore and switch to documentary film and spent about a decade working in documentary film, doing some corporate work, but also news media work. So pieces for NBC News, the Wall Street Journal and working out of New York City, but travelling really all over the country to cover stories that were both breaking news and also more long-form stories. And yeah, I mean, I think that one of the things that is probably underappreciated by the general public is how hard journalists are working and how underpaid we are. So a lot of people really look at journalists as people who maybe have an agenda. And I always laugh at that because I had no time to think about, like, having an agenda, like I'm just trying to cover a story. And of course, everyone comes in with their own like biases and things, right? But in many ways, I think, you know, think journalists are really under resourced and under supported from a mental health perspective, a physical health perspective, a financial health perspective, and, yeah, in some ways I think that that's why you get what you get when it comes to the storytelling and the quality of it because people are just trying to meet this 24 seven hunger for information in this, what was like a news, a television news cycle, but that turned into a social media algorithm. Anyway, that's the brief overview.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (03:03)

Yes. Okay.

There's a lot to unpack there. And I think it's important to look at all of this. So firstly, the juggle. I think it's actually really crucial. We can do something very unusual here, which is we can look at the life of a journalist in the spaces that are known for their politics without needing to actually comment on the politics of it. Because what I'm getting from your story is that it doesn't matter which politician someone prefers when they are working in media. It sounds like there's a juggle and a survival mode, perhaps, of the burnout, the you're not getting rich being a journalist by the sounds. So it sounds like you're just trying to cope and get by.

And I can imagine a lot of the world would be wondering what it's like to work as a journalist in the US at any point. And I hope you might have heard about what parts of your experience would still be happening now.

Clara Ritger (04:17)

Sure, yeah, and so in fairness, I've been out of it for, I guess, about three, four years now. Was the last time, yeah, only a few, that's true. But you're absolutely right. I was absolutely in survival mode when I was on projects for news media organisations.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (04:27)

Really few.

Clara Ritger (04:43)

And I say it that way because once I switched into documentary film, I did sort of have periods where I would be doing more corporate stuff for more original work that was maybe at a slightly slower pace. But then I had periods where, now, three, four, six months at a time, I was working solely for television, and that was crazy. Yeah, you're constantly in a state of fight or flight. And I don't know that there is a way to work with news media organisations and not be in that state in your body because of the demands of the job of constantly needing to be responding to breaking news. And even if you're not covering breaking news, it's the fact that that even exists in that environment that puts sort of everybody on this sense of everything is urgent and needs to be dealt with immediately. I remember one morning getting a call

And I wasn't even supposed to start work for another like 30 minutes. And I got a call asking what was wrong with me. And I said, What do you mean? I was like, nothing's wrong. And they said, Well, you haven't responded to this Slack notification. And I didn't have Slack on my phone because I wasn't a full-time employee. I was a contract employee. And so I was like, and I also wasn't even assigned to breaking news, but they were like looking to just have me jump in on something. And I was like, I was accessible on my phone all morning, not Slack, but also I wasn't on the clock. Like what is going on? And when I finally, I was working on obituaries at the time and somebody received a diagnosis. And so they wanted the obituary prepped like immediately.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (06:22)

What was happening?

Clara Ritger (06:36)

Even though, like, a diagnosis isn't somebody dying. Like when you talk about it, it actually sounds really crazy, but 45 minutes had passed in between when that Slack was sent and when I received a phone call asking what was wrong with me. And that hopefully conveys like the state of expectations and like people's nervous systems in the newsroom. What I can also say, as far as like living conditions, right, is when I first started my career, I was in Washington DC, it was 2013. I was making $32,000 a year and $32,000 a year in Washington DC meant that I could barely afford to buy groceries. I was eating trail mix for lunch and carrots that I made myself from like bulk buying these things just to have enough money to like be able to go to these like, networking events I needed to go to to do source building and like be able to buy a drink and not be like embarrassed in front of sources. Like I just, couldn't even, I could barely pay my bills on the money I was making. And granted that was the first job, but I think that's sort of like, that's where you start, and you only work up from like that low, right? And so people, I think, are pretty chronically underpaid across the industry, until, of course, you get to the like news anchor on television role, right?

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (08:02)

Yes. So I looked it up, and for perspective, sounds like Australian, that would be about 48,000. And we don't need the tiny details of whether that was before or after a tax, but it feels like, especially with how it's before tax. You are getting, pardon me. So you are getting 48,000 Australian or 32 American before tax.

Clara Ritger (08:17)

That was before tax.

Yeah.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (08:33)

And it's hard enough, keep in mind, it's hard enough when someone is working an ordinary job and might just go home at the end of the day, and it's fine to just eat some pasta, whatever cheap food, when living on not much, but you were working in media where you were expected to present yourself a certain way. especially, this is not a feminist statement here. It's just the fact.

Women are expected to wear particular clothes and look a particular way when they are public-facing. And on top of that, you're saying you had to buy drinks, and a drink might feel like not a big deal, but when you're on a very low pay, it sounds like you are expected to live a part of a glamorous life when you were earning barely enough to get by.

Clara Ritger (09:30)

Yes, that's absolutely it. was, and I mean, look, I think that I became over time, like the master of putting up an appearance. In 2016, three years later, I was 24 years old, and my appendix ruptured, and I was in the hospital. They took it out laparoscopically, which means like just a very small incision.

They sent me home even though I was telling them I wasn't feeling well. And 10 days later, I was back in the hospital with multiple areas of abscess encasing my organs. And they ended up having to cut and reconnect my intestines as part of like a much bigger open abdominal surgery. And for six years after that event, I was in and out of hospitals and doctors' offices with inexplicable pain.

They would run tests, they would even do procedures. I even had follow-up surgeries trying to address what ultimately was, I just never fully healed from that initial event. But a lot of people in my life didn't know that I was going through that. Jobs didn't know I was going through that. There were definitely jobs that I was on that I probably needed accommodations for, given my health, but I didn't ask for them. I didn't make it known. And I think that, like, being able to put up this appearance of everything being fine, like came from in journalism, you're supposed to look and present yourself a certain way, even if everything inside of you is crumbling.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (11:13)

Absolutely. Just, this is one of those moments where, as a podcast interviewer, I am focusing so much on your experience when, on the inside, I'm thinking that all sounds like what I have dealt with so many times. Okay. Where to begin from here? So you did not feel comfortable or allowed to share with some of your employers that you were going through these health journeys.

Clara Ritger (11:49)

Definitely, definitely, because my job does involve a physical element and because eventually I was freelancing, I was like a contract employee. I think I was concerned that I would get passed over for opportunities if I asked for too much. And I think that a lot of people can relate to this, right? There's a lot of people all around the world who are struggling with chronic illness or disability or you name it. I mean, it could even just be like a death in the family, grief. I actually didn't go to my grandfather's funeral when he passed away because I had just gotten a huge opportunity to do a series for the Wall Street Journal. And I was worried that if I asked for the time off, they would let me go from the position and hire somebody else because I, as a freelancer, I wasn't really entitled to that kind of time off. So I think that there are people who can relate to these experiences, right? I mean, it could even just be a miscarriage, and you're like, well, who am I to ask for a grief time for a miscarriage, right? You name it. We are all, we are all human and yet we are afraid of being our full human selves in workplaces and our families and society because we've been taught that like it's too much or that you know we aren't deserving of boundaries or this scarcity mindset and and maybe the scarcity mindset is real you know like you know I we live in capitalist societies that prioritize output over the person over the human body the human soul.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (13:43)

I would love to share with you a couple of things to say just how universal or relatable this is. And okay, great. I just feel like you have so many stories, and I don't want to be that person who says, But check out my story. But no, what you described, you were working even when someone had died. I never forgot the moment around a decade ago.

Clara Ritger (13:52)

Please.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (14:13)

When there was a funeral for a great-grandparent and I stayed at… I stayed in my city instead of travelling to go to that. And I don't think it was for any one reason. It wasn't only because an event was on, but around the time when people were going to that funeral, I was going to a fashion show and doing a selfie with the designer, Carla Zampatti. And socially, I was so shut down and couldn't hold a conversation. And I feel like I didn't allow space to just be a human. So I just totally relate to that feeling of you have to be present. You have to show up. And I, I think I was really shamed a couple of years ago when some people wanted to keep

People wanted me to keep showing up for events when I had family responsibilities that I needed to do. And it was so crushing knowing that people who said, we'll look after you, were saying, hang on, you picked looking after your family over showing up to this event. I, I can't even wrap my head around it. So that happens. And you were, you were a journalist. It's.

I can imagine you see that happening to a lot of other people in journalism and other public-facing jobs, of having to choose?

Clara Ritger (15:46)

I don't know that I saw it, but that doesn't mean that it wasn't there, right? That's by design, to not see it, to not see what people are actually going through and having to choose. I should say you're right that a lot of the choices, when I look back on like situations or choices that I've made in my life, it is never just one thing. And I think on top of the issue, you know, related to my grandfather's funeral, like on top of the issue that I was new and freelance on this job, I was going through a really challenging time with my family, my immediate family. And I would have to obviously spend that time with them and see them. And there was a lot of hurt around that as well. And so I think it was those two things together that it was just like, I'm not even gonna ask, don't even think I can, I can't go, I just won't be there. But all those feelings around my grandfather's death and my family and the stress of this new job, even if I'm not telling my coworkers about it or even my friends about it, it doesn't mean that that's not there, that that isn't something I'm carrying with me every day.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (16:45)

Well.

You are processing that.

Clara Ritger (17:07)

Processing all of this and this and this mental and emotional load takes a physical toll on the body. You know, this was at the same time that I was struggling with all these physical health issues, and I think a lot of people, when you ask people, when people receive Significant diagnoses in their life. It's really interesting because almost everybody you talk to you about it can point to something unrelated or seemingly unrelated to the physical illness that they think caused it. Like, I never grieved my mother's death, or I was putting in really long hours to try to make partner, and like now I have breast cancer. Like people always have this like this inner knowing and

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (17:44)

Yes.

Clara Ritger (17:59)

We don't have a lot of science around this, but the science that we do have around it does point to that being true. That when the body is in prolonged states of fight or flight, when those stress hormones are flooding through the body, when your blood pressure is raised, when your heart rate is going faster, when your digestion is stopped, because these are all the things that your body does to prepare you to fight, right?

It's trying to save you. The problem is that you never then shut that down. never then move. When you're in prolonged periods of stress, you're constantly ready to fight. Well, the body, always heightened, the body eventually breaks down. Those systems eventually start to cause issues in the body. And that was my experience. And I think that that's something that we do see is that we don't see all of the steps that lead up

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (18:38)

You're always heightened.

Clara Ritger (18:57)

to someone's crisis, but when someone gets a cancer diagnosis, that's the part that we do see. And I believe, at least in my experience, and I think in the experience of what I've heard from other people, that there's so much more we could be doing to prevent from getting to that point of crisis. Like the body has been, at least my body was, sending signals of distress long before it hit collapse and burn up.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (19:30)

It was sending signals, the physical burnout. I think you have a really important lesson for anyone who's trying to do extraordinary work because not everybody becomes a journalist, especially these days, but so many people are trying to be even public-facing because we all need a personal brand these days. I'm seeing a nod.

We all are expected to be public facing these days. There's very little room to exist privately, at least not entirely. But also, I think there's a demand for all of us to work so much now because to live in this economy, it's quite typical for someone to have a nine-to-five, so to speak. And then something else alongside that, even that's a lot of burnout.

You are one of at least three guests on the podcast, maybe more, that talked about having a physical illness after a burnout. This is happening to health professionals. It's happening to business owners. It's happening to public-facing people. What were your next steps after realising that the work that you cared about was sort of wrecking you at the same time?

Clara Ritger (20:58)

Yeah, exactly. It's such a good question because there's really there's two things that you're saying here that I want to highlight. One is the economic necessity of working around the clock that because our societies have not kept up the wage growth with the inflation, and how much it costs to live.

We all have to work more to try to make ends meet, or you have to have two parents instead of one parent that is working, right? That's number one. And number two is when you're purpose-driven, when you're mission-driven, you feel this, you know, pull, I think to work more, keep going because you're like, I just have to do this thing to change the world. Right. And in the process, you're forgoing your own health and well-being. I absolutely struggled with both of those things, right? This feeling that when I was living in New York City, that I needed to work a certain amount in order to make a certain amount of money to afford to live in New York City, right? And then I would get on these projects that I was absolutely passionate about, but the experience of working on them, I was totally disembodied. I was abandoning myself for this idea of this greater good or this mission or this other person's story that I just needed to tell and just needed to get out there. And I think that having, you know, it comes down to having boundaries. And I think that having boundaries is really challenging, but is necessary to prevent burnout.

And yeah, I think there's going to be this feeling of falling behind and not keeping up with other people in your field who are able to go the distance. But at what cost are you going this distance, right? Because when your health comes knocking at the door, at a certain point, that either means you're gonna have to take this prolonged break to heal, which I did.

Or for many people, you hit retirement, you get a terminal illness, and you barely even get to enjoy that time before you go, right? And it's sad, right? And I hate to say it this way, but it is true. It's that, you know, this idea of the body keeps the score. It's a, you know, famous book in the trauma spaces, but the concept of the body keeping the score is true.

For me, I hit an absolute breaking point. I struggled with my health for six years before I had another follow-up surgery. And it was that surgery that created a total breakdown for me. I was like, I can't live like this anymore. This isn't even living, this is surviving. And I don't know how much time I have left at this rate. I really thought I wasn't going to make it to retirement.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (24:19)

Wow.

Clara Ritger (24:19)

I really thought that, and I thought I needed to see the world before I die. I didn't think I was going to die in the next two to three years, but I mean, I was having the kinds of surgeries, and doctors were referring to me as like a person with like 80-year-old insides. And I was like, if I have 80-year-old insides, there's no way I'm going to live another 30 years to see retirement. So

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (24:47)

That's illustrating. Sorry, I talked over here, and I'll touch that a bit. I jumbled my words there. day. So that's illustrating things a lot. And in sharing your story, it's this is a bit like a journalistic story in the sense that you're really painting the picture and setting the scene and describing things that are very technical. Because even when someone has been a patient like you have, when you've been a patient, everybody explains the terms to you. And the

Clara Ritger (24:50)

Go ahead

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (25:15)

Inside like an 80-year-old that really helps. I'm so curious, what was happening to you? How serious did it get? People were wondering. Were you basically accelerating your aging?

Clara Ritger (25:31)

That's what it felt like. Ultimately, what was challenging was that the doctors weren't able to pinpoint one specific thing that was going on. So I was coming in and presenting with all these symptoms, and they were seeing all these symptoms, but they would run their tests and do their procedures, and they're like, we don't know. And I remember after the latest surgery, I had the surgery that sort of like was the straw that broke the camel's back

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (25:54)

Wow.

Clara Ritger (26:01)

that caused me to abandon my whole life in New York City and travel the world. I went into the doctor's office with this like inexplicable pain about two months after that surgery. And I remember the moment I woke up that morning, I was supposed to have a follow-up that morning. So I was already scheduled to come in. I woke up that morning, and I experienced this like a sharp pain in my abdomen and an immediate swelling, like bloating.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (26:12)

See?

Clara Ritger (26:30)

that reminded me, like was reminiscent of the day my appendix ruptured. And I was like, I don't know what is going on, but I thought, surely there is no way that I'm coming home from this appointment. So I was like rushing around trying to make this appointment on time. I was like running the dishwasher because I was like, I'm never gonna come home. Like I'm gonna be, this is it. I'm gonna be in the hospital. And I go in and he's like looking at me and he's like, I, he's like,

Here's the thing, he's like, I can see what is happening, but what is happening doesn't line up with any complications post this particular surgery that you had. He's like, so this is something else entirely. He's like, so the next steps is going to be to have you go in and get a CT scan. He's like, schedule that within the next two weeks. And then, depending on what the CT scan finds, if they don't figure it out, we'll have to do an exploratory surgery. I'll cut an incision, and I'll put cameras inside of you, and we'll try to figure out what's going on. That was the level of like, we have no clue what is going on with you, that I was experiencing for about six years. And the thought of having an exploratory surgery broke me. I was like, I can't live like this anymore. This is not working. And so that was sort of the moment where I was like, I'm...

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (27:48)

No!

Clara Ritger (27:54)

Leaving everything behind, I'm quitting, like I'm gonna have to figure this out, like I can't keep going like this. Like I was spending like somewhere between five and $10,000 a year easily on medical bills. And Australians can't relate to this, but this is the US medical system because I was having procedures and tests and things that like just aren't covered by insurance because I was too young.

Like I had a colonoscopy, and once you hit 50 or 55, I think in the US, you get one colonoscopy covered a year. And I had this colonoscopy because they deemed it medically necessary. They were like, We have no clue what's going on with you. We need to see inside. Well, it was a denied claim by my insurance. I paid like $3,500 for that procedure because I was too young, too young to have a colonoscopy.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (28:42)

my goodness.

We can relate to this a bit because not everything is covered, and our public health system is so stretched that often the accessible alternative is the very expensive private health space, but also, money is money. And I'm guessing you are still only earning so much as a journalist and needing to put thousands into even just tests.

Clara Ritger (29:14)

Yeah, and I will say my income fluctuated a lot over the years. So I would have really good years, and then I would have more lean years because I was freelancing for the most part. Yeah, I think, I wanna say that was like the year before I had a really good year. I don't know, think I figured it, you know, I've managed to figure it all out, right? And I've coped, but.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (29:27)

Right.

So you coped.

Clara Ritger (29:42)

But yeah, mean, there was, you know, when I made the decision to travel the world, there was an element of, I'm already spending X thousands of dollars a year on health anyway. I might as well like just try taking a break, like spending that money, like taking a break and seeing like what happens. Like, yeah, I mean, and ultimately, yeah, ultimately for me, I did find out that it was like trauma-related and stress.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (30:03)

Interesting logic.

wow.

Clara Ritger (30:11)

Stress-related. So yeah, I did heal when I was able to move my body out of fight or flight and into rest and digest mode. You know, shocker, but all these abdominal issues related to not being in rest and digest mode.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (30:22)

Trauma and stress. Was there an element of both trauma and stress when you were working in media? Was it also influenced by other things? But I'm so curious to know, was that the feeling in media?

Clara Ritger (30:43)

So, a brief educational lesson, I have since actually been certified as a trauma-informed coach and a meditation teacher. And trauma is stress. These two things, so not all stress is trauma, but all trauma is stress on the body. And when you are a person with trauma, which I was, or still am, I'm not sure that you ever really graduate from being, my diagnosis that I received back in 2016 was complex PTSD, and PTSD means post-traumatic stress disorder, right? So what it effectively is is that your body is putting itself into fight or flight mode when it doesn't need to be doing that. And the complex part of it just means that it wasn't one, like, event, like one car accident that has given you PTSD. It's a bunch of things that happened over many years, particularly in childhood, that then turns into, as an adult, your nervous system subconsciously sees danger around every corner and is trying to ready you for the fight, right? And yes, go ahead.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (31:44)

It's a bunch of things.

I've got a question out of this.

Okay, I know I keep bringing politics into this a little bit, but I feel like the world is political, and it doesn't matter where you turn, everybody either cares or doesn't care, but even not caring about politics as a statement. So again, no science, but if you have PTSD or you suspect that you're having signs of PTSD, I'm curious, does politics flare that up because people are essentially in some way fighting each other?

Clara Ritger (32:37)

Yes, and this goes back to your first question, which was how did this relate to your workplace? The thing is, is that often people with PTSD and complex PTSD, because they are used to being in a state of fight or flight, they are like the one thing that we are really good at is if you're in danger and you need to survive, we will get you there, right?

You can rely on people with complex PTSD for any sort of emergency situation. So what does that mean? If I'm really good at handling, I'm really good at handling these high-stress situations. I now seek out work that rewards that nervous system state. So journalism, doctors, like politics. Yeah. And so the thing is, is your, your set

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (33:23)

WHA-

Clara Ritger (33:31)

Like, and I actually wrote about this in my newsletter. I now have a newsletter where I talk about my experience of healing and travelling the world and also share a lot of this sort of these trauma-informed insights. I write about how your comfort zone winds up being discomfort. And so healing for people is to actually figure out what your comfort zone really is. And it's going to feel uncomfortable until you reset your set point. So yes, I was being triggered in many aspects of my daily life, politics certainly, the journalism workplace certainly. I think that there's an element to New York City that can be triggering. But I think the thing that's really important is, and I wrote about this actually this week in this newsletter as well, is I think that there are some careers, professions that lend themselves to naturally being constantly stressful. However, I by and large think that it isn't about what you do, but it's about how you do it. So I think that it is possible to be a doctor and not be in a state of fight or flight, chronic stress. I think that it is possible to live in New York City and not be triggered and stressed all the time.

Don't know how I feel about politics and journalism, though, I gotta be honest. I'm not sure if it's possible.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (35:04)

I, on that. I'll tell you something. And I seriously haven't talked about this very often at all, but a million years ago, I had a very short amount of time working in data entry in the advertising department of a TV station. And the team leader in that space expected us to not need lunch.

So if you're just physically built to sort of get a little bit woozy and then, princess, you need a lunch. It was never those words, but essentially, but also, you don't have lunch until after everything is done. But also the phrase sense of urgency translated to where all feelings are panicked. Why aren't you? Why I got this impression, this energy, this attitude from them, of why aren't you feeling panicked? And I just was at the time I would go from the suburbs to the city and do this stuff. So I wasn't constantly hyped up, and I just had this to do, okay, well, just to do this. And I think that seemed very foreign to them. So maybe if you sensed that in the social media news cycle in the

In the even traditional 24-hour news cycle, I'm seeing a lot of nods. I think I'm on the right track here. There are organisational cultures that expect people to be in this fight or flight state because it visibly looks like we are working harder.

Clara Ritger (36:47)

Absolutely.

And I think that if you're a professional listening to this, right, and you're really struggling with this, I think it's really important to evaluate your environment, your work environment, your home environment, right, and figure out is it just you or is there a reflection of what you are experiencing in the places that you spend a lot of time in and do those places need to change in order to support your healing?

For me, I think one of the reasons I had to burn it all down to the ground was because I let it get too bad. Like in every aspect of my life, in my work life, in my relationships, like my family relationships and my romantic relationships. Like, there was nothing about the previous life that I wanted to save. I had to start over.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (37:43)

Everything is pressed.

Clara Ritger (37:46)

And that's why I think it's so important to talk about this. My gosh, did you hear that?

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (37:51)

Yes, you got some thunder because we are talking about big stuff, and magic is happening, and Clara has a storm going on in the background. Don't you love some good symbolism? But are you okay to keep chatting?

Clara Ritger (38:02)

Seriously.

Yeah, yeah, I'm okay to keep going. That was so scary, though. That was a really loud one. Yeah. Yeah, I think like, I think it's so important to talk about this stuff because I think that, you know, save your life before it's too late, you know? Don't let everything spin out of control. Like if your work needs to change, change your work. If your family situation needs to change, change that.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (38:07)

⁓ it was loud.

pretty much.

Clara Ritger (38:31)

It's so much easier to make smaller changes, like in the step of healing, than it is to have to start all over. And yeah.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (38:44)

Yeah. Smaller changes along the way. That is so crucial because my perspective, I'm keen to know if you agree with this. I want these high-pressure industries to be led and served by people who do feel regulated enough. And this isn't about constantly being mellow or anything or constantly chilled, but

people who are sustaining themselves enough to help other people in the long term, because I don't want those industries or any others to be filled with people who feel burned out, depressed, or even a need to be tough. Another response that I wanted to bring into this is some people to even just cope with the pressure of an industry, they turn it just tough like they're putting on a shield and you end up wondering hang on who are you and what have you done with the old you that was just so gentle and nurturing to everybody because it's very hard to be nurturing and tough at the same time so do you agree we need a way for hopefully any forms of wellness to support people who are working in any high pressure professions.

Clara Ritger (40:12)

Yes, and it's important to note that a regulated nervous system is not a peaceful nervous system. A regulated nervous system is a nervous system that can move easily in and out of states of stress and into states of rest. So that's what it is, these are workplaces that are in these prolonged, heightened, stressful, angry situations that never have moments of celebration or ease, right? It's like you can pull an all-nighter once and recover, but to work 12, 14, 16 hours, days and days on end to be responding to Slack messages at seven in the morning or on the weekend, days and days on end, that's a dysregulated system. And that's an ecosystem, right, that is not supporting people. It's, you know, using them really as bodies for performance. This is, mean, really what this goes back to is that we have moved really far away from seeing each other as humans existing and like working together and just into, well, you're a body that needs to hit these KPIs. And if you don't, will just replace you. There's somebody else that will, another body that will do the job.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (41:43)

Yes. And this is not only for employees or people who are starting from scratch. I want to seriously acknowledge the executives or the leaders of any sort. I can think about a bunch of them. I'm not thinking about just one person or a few, but I've heard things in person and on social media. Here's what's happening. Some industries are so deprived of resources that there's a panic around having what's needed. It's basically, I'm going to call this a high-level survival mode because in your career and in mine, frankly, as well, we had moments of, okay, how am I going to get by personally? There are people out there wondering how will my people who are working for me get by? How will my customers get what they need? And that's a panic and a stress that's ongoing.

And meanwhile, some industries end up looking like a battle, and it's not only literally politics. think any field can become that sort of, I think it's human nature. So we need a version of this to agree where people can just feel okay, to put it simply.

Clara Ritger (43:01)

I think that part of the problem is I think some, not all, but I think some workplaces are aware of this problem and they want sort of a plug-and-play solution. So they're like, well, we built this like wellness room, and just nobody uses it. And it's like, you know, or we're covering people's, like, we're covering yoga for people if they want to do it, you know, that's like enough, right?

Like it's capitalist solutions like to a capitalist problem. It's like there were not sort of thinking outside of the box here on like how exactly we could solve this problem and help give people sort of what they need, right? For me, the tool that I am using and the tool that I think would be really helpful for a lot of people is actually meditation. Teaching people how to meditate can transform workplaces. I fully believe this. And here's why, because when you take 20 minutes once a day, twice a day if you can, to meditate, what it does is it allows you to tune into your experience of your life. So you start to notice maybe aches and pains that are in your body that you didn't notice before, oops, I guess I should maybe do something about that. Or all of a sudden, all these thoughts are flooding your mind that are just,

You're like, my gosh, this is really upsetting to me, and I need to work through this, or I didn't realise that was something I was upset about. I guess maybe I should go and deal with that, whatever. It allows you to sort of come back into the experience of what needs your attention. And when we get clarity on what needs our attention, then we start to have clarity as to what the priorities are in the workday. So no.

Not everything needed to be sent five minutes ago, Chad. It can wait, right? Like, and so if everyone, right? If the executives have this sort of clarity, if people in the ground level have this sort of clarity, it allows people to do what I was saying before, which is to have this regulated nervous system that can move in and out of, oops, that really needs to get done. I gotta buck up and get this done. And then, that thing is done.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (45:02)

Yeah, Chad.

Clara Ritger (45:26)

Yes, I have 10 other things on the to-do list, but I know what my priorities are, and we'll get to them as we get to them. And allowing people that grace, of, ⁓ something came up. Well, if it's not a really urgent thing and your kid needs you to go pick them up from school because they punched someone, maybe you should go deal with the kid, you know, or whatever. Like having that sort of flexibility of moving in and out of these, what needs the most attention as humans.

So that's one tool and there's other tools, but yeah, think education and awareness is a huge piece of this. And deciding, I think, from a leadership standpoint, that this is no longer something that we're okay with doing, that we no longer are going to treat people this way and see work in this way.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (46:21)

Yes. It's about looking after yourselves, not just in the allocated time or space, be it the what was it? The wellness room, I think you called it. What even is that? What do people do? I'm so curious. What is that?

Clara Ritger (46:35)

Yeah.

So I've seen them sort of relabeled. There used to be the lactation rooms. So if there was a mom who needed to pump, I've seen a lot of workplaces actually just take that sign off and put wellness room up so that if a mom needs to use it for that purpose, she can. But then other people, in theory, can also use it to take five minutes. Whether people are actually... Look, I don't think people are actually using these rooms.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (46:49)

Don't get me started.

Clara Ritger (47:07)

But I think that the reason people aren't actually using these rooms is twofold. think one, they're not really sure how to use the room. They're like, What am I even supposed to do in there? Yeah, usually with like a couch and like dim lighting and maybe some like soothing music. Yeah. And like maybe like a rocking chair of sorts. But I also think that there's not a culture that like is, that allows space for that room. You know, if you're in meetings from nine to five,

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (47:14)

Is it literally just a room?

Okay.

Clara Ritger (47:36)

all, literally all day. When are you gonna go use this wellness room?

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (47:44)

You wouldn't have the chance, definitely. And I wish that more people would learn that even yoga, you mentioned a yoga subscription. Yoga has a whole philosophy that's not simply woo or a Hindu or anything, but it has some very, very applicable lifestyle and ethical

ideas to basically make life go a bit more smoothly. And if that can be applied, or if any everyday practice, meditating and figuring out, what's my intention behind the meditation? Am I going to step back from the rest of the world? Whatever it might be. If we have the chance to actually apply some of these concepts that can sometimes be common sense.

Just within our everyday life, instead of, I'm going to do wellness things for a moment, a whole hour of wellness. That's what we're getting at, that wellness shouldn't just be a session. should be a way of life. And I'm not saying hide away with the lentils. We're saying, weave this into the amazing work that people are doing.

Clara Ritger (48:46)

Yes.

Exactly. It's about how you approach life. And people do not have the tools, right? And I mean, you know, one place to start would be potentially therapy. And a lot of in the US, your health insurance is tied to your employer. And so you typically get a certain amount of therapy sessions covered at a copay, which is like a reduced rate.

But once you've hit the maximum on your plan, then you have to pay full price for these therapy sessions. I've been on health insurance plans where my portion of the partially covered sessions were anywhere between 60 to 120 US dollars per session. So I would pay 60 to 120, and then the insurance would pay the other portion of it. And then I was getting maybe 10 to 20 sessions at that rate. And then once I finished that, I had to pay each session at 250 US dollars to 300 US dollars, whatever the full price of that therapist. Right. And this is what I'm saying, by like, this is actually like a huge, massive problem that it's like, if workplaces want to know where to start, how about figuring out how to make your health insurance plan cover therapy for free? Because that's where people and also that hour that somebody needs to take to go and see that therapist.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (50:08)

Wow, that's huge. That's so expensive.

Clara Ritger (50:29)

Don't count that against their leave time because that is gonna be a place where people go and get these resources and learn how to approach work and relationships differently. And they bring all of that back into the workplace. Like we should be seeing therapy the same way that we see continued education, like an upskilling for professionals. We should be seeing that.

as emotional intelligence upskilling, which is what it is. That's what my experience with it was, but we don't. And so, at least in the U.S., it's a very hard barrier. There's a barrier to entry to even get access to the tools that you need to learn this way of being.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (51:14)

Yes, the prices were a lot higher than what I imagined they would be, but that concept is very similar for us, but it's from Medicare, government-funded insurance. Essentially, we would, I think, don't quote me on this one. Sorry, I shouldn't say the phrase don't quote me on it on a podcast, but the insurance package is from memory, about 10 sessions that are subsidised.

Clara Ritger (51:35)

you

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (51:43)

And then the rest, maybe eventually there'll be another pack of those. Otherwise, it's full price. So it's a very similar concept. And I think this is very common, especially if people are watching their money closely or there are lots of other expenses, then people have to really prioritise their health. And I think it's quite a sacrifice to make. It's a big financial decision for the average individual to say, okay,

I'm going to maybe have to cut back on other things to even be affording to talk to someone.

Clara Ritger (52:19)

Yeah, exactly. Exactly. So it's definitely, we definitely live in a landscape that is challenging, right? And, you know, I feel very fortunate that I was able to sort of take this break to heal. And that's one of the reasons I got trained and am sharing my story and talking about this with people, and the resources that helped me the most, you know, because meditation, it costs you a little bit to learn, but it is largely free. Once you learn, you can do this for free. It's a thing that you have, it's a skill that you have with you for the rest of your life, right? And so yeah, for me, it's like the more that I can just share this education for free and help, hopefully just empower or at least enlighten people to this alternate way of being.

Yeah, I went on this journey on my own and really struggled to figure a lot of this stuff out. But on the other side, it's like, yeah, I wish people knew this. I wish I had known. I struggled for six years with these health issues. I wish I had figured it out sooner. I wish someone had told me sooner.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (53:35)

I'm so keen to ask you, how do you feel about communities forming where people can share more wisdom so we can create some prevention before we reach the point where we need urgent therapy?

Clara Ritger (53:52)

I mean, yeah, I think it sounds great. I think the more we can support each other on these paths, the better, because ultimately, if you want to change the world, change yourself. If everybody was able to change themselves, we would change the world, right? And so I think having these communities helps inspire people to go down that journey to really to find yourself, to live in alignment with.

what your body needs and what makes your soul feel alive.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (54:26)

Absolutely. We could talk about this for so long because it's very essential. Would you like to conclude with three actionable tips that anyone can implement to make their lives better?

Clara Ritger (54:46)

Yes, absolutely. So, I mean, in the theme of what we've been talking about, which has mostly been like workplace stress, right? My first tip, and this is the first thing that I started doing very early on, is when you get a sense of things getting really stressful at work, urgency, maybe you just had a difficult conversation with your boss, you name it, take a walk, leave the office, and just go for a walk for five minutes and then come back. That's an easy way to inject just a moment of like change your scenery, get some clarity, you know, even if it's just moving your body a little bit. I promise those five minutes, you won't miss them. And actually, it will improve whatever you have to do next. It'll help you do whatever you have to do next. So that's the first step.

The second step, I would say, would be to learn to meditate. I'm really a huge proponent of meditation. Meditation absolutely changed my life. ⁓ Meditation is ultimately, I think, what helped me to heal. So my experience was that the most transformative effects of meditation were not on the cushion, the metaphorical meditation cushion, but were after I meditated and how those 20 minutes that I meditated every day then had ripple effects into how I showed up in the rest of my day. And I can say this, but you just won't know it until you experience it. There's many different forms of meditation. I teach one form of meditation called instinctive meditation, which is really about honouring the individual, the idea being that there's no one-size-fits-all.

for anybody. And so I work with people on a one-on-one basis to help them find a meditation practice that suits them and helps them to feel more connected to their loved ones, more present in their life experiences and showing up in the workplace ⁓ with boundaries and clarity. Right. So if you're interested in that at all, feel free to reach out to me. My social media is at Clara Ritker or C-L-A-R-A-R-I-T-G-E-R. And I also write a newsletter, and my newsletter is AdventureToAwaken.com. And if you go to AdventureToAwaken.com, you will see up in the menu a solo retreat guide. And we can also link it in the description for this podcast, but that's free. So you'll also get signed up for my newsletter when you download it, but it's 56 pages that will, that with guided meditations, guided yoga practices, it's like, if you want to just take a five-day retreat, like get a hotel or an Airbnb in your hometown, like you don't have to pay $5,000 and go to Bali for this healing and wellness retreat, right? Like this is a resource that will take you through a self-guided retreat, start to finish, what to cook, everything.

I made it just to give people sort of like a lot for free so that, like, you know, like there's so much that you can do, like outside of the like, well, this industrial complex. So, so those would be the three things that I would say here's places to start explore these resources, you know, take a walk, try to learn meditation with me or just look at this free solo retreat guide. Even if you only do one day of it, I promise something will help you.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (58:35)

Thank you so much, Clara. Thanks for the wisdom and the resources and for sharing your story.

Clara Ritger (58:43)

I'm so happy to be here. Thank you for having me, and wish everyone the best of luck and a beautiful weekend journey ahead.

The Motivate Collective Podcast — Show Notes

From Burnedout GP to Holistic Transformation Coach: Dr Jen Draper on Reclaiming Your Power

Episode description

Former GP of nearly 30 years, Dr Jen Draper, shares why she walked away from clinical practice during burnout in early 2024 and how she now helps clients transform through holistic coaching. We unpack "six-minute medicine," CPD incentives, the influence of Big Pharma/Food, trauma and the body, trigger responses, and practical ways to self-regulate (breathwork, nervous-system resets). Dr Jen also offers a powerful reframe: symptoms as signals—and why a healed patient is no longer a patient.

> Note: This conversation reflects personal perspectives and is not medical advice.

Guest

Dr Jen Draper — Holistic Transformation Coach (ex-medical doctor)

Former Australian GP (around 30 years).

Left practice Feb–Mar 2024 after being diagnosed with depression/burnout.

Now guides clients through trauma-informed, holistic transformation.

Focus areas: nervous-system regulation, meaning-making, somatic patterns, lifestyle foundations (sleep, stress, nutrition, movement), and aligned values-based living.

Host

Melanie Suzanne Wilson — Speaker, mentor, and host of The Motivate Collective Podcast.

Chapters (timestamps)

00:00 Welcome & who is Dr Jen Draper

01:39 Insights from decades in general practice; the "relapse loop"

04:25 CPD, pharma sponsorship, and "continuing *pharma* dependence"

07:43 Protocols, prescriptions & sales cycles behind "education"

08:53 Big Food and public-health guidelines (pyramids & cereals)

11:57 ARPRA discussion & learning modalities outside the mainstream

13:38 The Flexner Report & sidelining of alternative modalities

15:35 "Drugs are poisons": labels, opinions, and personal agency

18:56 What is "health"? Quick fixes vs. true wellbeing

20:51 Listening to patterns; Jen's 30-kg weight loss after leaving practice

25:14 Funding models, "six-minute medicine," and Medicare item numbers

29:29 Codependency, reassurance-seeking, and root causes

32:15 Meanings we assign to significant emotional experiences

33:57 Case study: chronic headaches, relationships/workplace, and healing

35:57 Paracetamol, glutathione, and why quick fixes backfire

38:08 Transformational process & reducing meds with GP awareness

40:16 Bowen therapy, "Secret Language of the Body," somatic clues

42:07 Live lookup: lumbar spine (L1–L2) themes & resonance

45:11 Triggers, amygdala, and the breath as the brake

51:10 Fight, flight, freeze, flop, fawn explained

52:21 Parasympathetic "rest & digest," joy, and self-regulation games

55:06 Burnout in healthcare: value alignment & intuition

57:28 Perspective, projection, and personal power

58:10 Part 2 teaser & wrap

Key takeaways

System vs. symptom: Conventional care often optimises for speed and prescriptions; deeper transformation asks what your symptom is signaling.

Incentives matter: CPD and public-health narratives can be shaped by industry incentives (pharma/food). Stay curious and examine sources.

Meaning-making drives patterns: 90–95% of presenting issues Dr Jen saw traced back to meanings formed around significant emotional events.

Nervous-system skills are foundational: Learn to notice triggers and down-shift with long, slow exhales to bring the prefrontal cortex back online.

The "fawn" response exists: Beyond fight/flight, freeze, flop, and fawn are common trauma responses (e.g., pedestal-ing others).

Values alignment prevents burnout: If care delivery conflicts with your intuition/values, misalignment compounds stress and accelerates burnout.

Agency first: Seek practitioners aligned with your preferences; explore lifestyle pillars (rest, stress, food, movement) before defaulting to labels.

Memorable quotes

"A healed patient is no longer a patient." — Dr Jen

"Truth is a matter of perspective." — Dr Jen

"Drugs don't heal; they redirect symptoms." — Dr Jen

"When you're triggered, your breath is the brake." — Dr Jen

"What you perceive is what you project." — Dr Jen

Resources & mentions (as discussed)

The Body Keeps the Score — Bessel van der Kolk

Anxiety RX — Dr Russell Kennedy

The Secret Language of the Body — Inna Segal

Bowen Therapy (gentle bodywork modality)

Topics:

ARPRA (Australian Health Practitioner Regulation Agency), Flexner Report, glutathione/NAC (education context only)

Disclaimers

The views expressed are personal experiences and opinions of the guest.

This episode is not medical advice. For diagnosis or treatment, consult a qualified healthcare professional.

Call to action

If this resonated, follow/subscribe on Spotify or Apple Podcasts.

Share the episode with someone navigating burnout or chronic symptoms.

Want Part 2 with Dr Jen? Leave a review with your question, and we'll include it in the next conversation.

Credits Host: Melanie Suzanne Wilson

Guest: Dr Jen Draper

Producer: The Motivate Collective

Music/Editing: The Motivate Collective Team

Episode tags

#burnout #holistichealing #traumainformed #nervoussystem #breathwork #selfregulation #publichealth #gp #wellness #mindbody #meaningmaking #valuesalignment #bowentherapy #glutathione #fawnresponse

Transcript

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (00:00)

Welcome, Dr Jen Draper, to the podcast. It's a privilege to have you on the show. Welcome.

Dr Jen Draper | (00:07)

Thank you so much, Melanie. I appreciate the invitation.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (00:12)

For those who don't know who you are, would you like to explain what you do?

Dr Jen Draper | (00:18)

Sure, of course. So, two people who know me through my previous professional career I am Dr Jen Draper, and even those who now know me as a coach still tend to call me Dr Jen. However, I am no longer a registered medical practitioner. I was a registered medical practitioner for nearly 30 years. And during that time,

I helped many, many people into a state of complete dependency upon me as their trusted GP. And that is why in February or March of 2024, when I was myself in the grips of a diagnosed depression, but I would call it burnout, I walked away from my job as a medical practitioner.

And I took some time to heal, and I have come back, and now I work as a holistic transformation coach. So I put ex-medical doctor in the end of that because I am allowed to still use the title providing that I make it quite clear that I am no longer paying money to APRA and being a registered medical practitioner.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (01:39)

Right. But a few decades of doing that, it's an insight that a lot of us don't have. It's a great perspective. And having been a GP, you would have seen the whole spectrum of issues and transformations, seeing a bit of everything.

Dr Jen Draper | (01:57)

I certainly have. Probably issues would be correct, not too many transformations, although I did make a difference in a lot of people's lives, and it's been kind of an after-the-fact that that has been acknowledged. More so that I was appreciated more in my absence if any of the messages and things that I receive regularly are to be believed.

So yeah, that has been slightly bittersweet because I do admit that contributing to the burnout was a feeling of powerlessness in terms of actually making a difference in people's lives. Like really feeling as if they would keep in that roundabout of presenting back and forth through the gate. Yes, yes. And often with very similar complaints.

Even when we would seem as if, know, collaboratively together, which was how I like to work with my patients, we would be making a difference in the progress with their presenting problems. Unfortunately, there would be a relapse, as it were. And I mean, these are all very medical terms because of course I was indoctrinated from a very young age, as we all were, that, you know, the doctor knows best, trust your doctor.

And of course, back in 2019, I started thinking that perhaps I had been a little bit misguided in placing my faith in that system of indoctrination, which says that the doctor knows best and that we could keep ourselves healthy with checkups at the doctor. Because I recognise that that is actually a falsity. Mean, well, patients don't go to the doctor.

People seek out the doctor when they are sick. So, rather naively, I named my medical practice Wingham Wellbeing, and thinking that I would be able to keep people healthy and well from the perspective of a conventionally trained doctor, albeit with some integrative training, because I did self-fund my Continuing Professional Development, or CPD, as it's called.

I now like to call that acronym continuous farmer dependence.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (04:25)

Wow!

You were going to say you upskilled in meditating, but it was farmer dependence okay, what was going on, we'll start with that

Dr Jen Draper | (04:36)

Well, I don't know if your viewers will appreciate this, but something that perhaps most doctors won't actually share with you is that in order to satisfy the requirements for ongoing CPD, which stands for continuing professional development, and of course that's not specific to the health care, sorry, sickness industry, but it's now standard across all industries. But I want to blow the lid and lift the veil and share with you that if doctors want to take the easy route to satisfy their CPD, then the easiest way to do that is to attend sponsored evenings of

medical education or weekends perhaps, and once upon a time in the day, they used to be conferences overseas, but Medicines Australia put a stop to all of that, and these events are actually mostly free for the doctor, but they are paid for by someone. So, who do you think in the scheme of things would pay for doctors to be educated?

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (05:47)

I was going to hope it's the broccoli industry, but please let us know who it actually is.

Dr Jen Draper | (05:52)

It is the pharmaceutical industry. So therefore that is the reason why I've changed the CPD acronym in my own little jaded perspective to say continuing pharma dependence. Because basically, if that was the sole format within which you would receive your continuing professional development, then if it was delivered by the pharmaceutical industry, what do you think we learned most about during those sessions?

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (06:18)

Was it essentially

a sales pitch?

Dr Jen Draper | (06:22)

Basically, pretty much so. But it was gauged within teaching you protocols for how to manage various different conditions. And of course, an intricate part of the management would be the drugs that you would use. So most typically these sessions would be timed with the rollout of new products or perhaps existing products which had taken a dive in their sales and were still not quite of patent, so therefore there weren't generic versions of them flooding the market. And so these pharmaceutical reps would, in all good intentions, because they really truly felt that they are doing a service, but of course their KPIs, their key performance indicators, were number of prescriptions. Within that territory, the rep, the pharmaceutical rep, serviced. Therefore, by having as many doctors in that local area come along to an event, learn about this new drug, and therefore, because one of their peers would present to them and give case studies and examples of how you could use it, et cetera, then they would start writing prescriptions. So that was the underlying basis behind how we were educated as general practitioners.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (07:43)

Love to counter that with my experience as a patient of just seeing how perhaps that sort of thing could have been influencing things. So you were saying that you came to that realisation in 2019. In 2018, there were days when I was waiting to go see the OBGYN, and she would tell me Eat whatever you want. And

I would seriously sit at the hospital cafe having some sort of sugary drink at a sausage roll, cake, whatever was there. And then she was saying, We'll see how it goes. You might end up needing this Pitocin, whatever else. And it was basically just look at a graph, check how close we're getting to needing these pharmaceuticals. And I'm not telling anyone what to do with their medical decisions.

I'm sure you're not either, but there was, I was literally told to whatever I want with pretty much no hint. It was seriously a year or two afterwards that I was discovering things like gut health, and I had no idea. After I switched to my eating, I lost 20 kilos. I'm wondering, were you not seeing that many professional development days that were helping doctors to guide people to eat sensibly, get more rest, any of those lifestyle things?

Dr Jen Draper | (08:53)

Hmm. Hmm.

Well, yes, that is the interesting aspect of it because what we should eat and how we should move, et cetera, this sort of falls within the range of public health recommendations. So if I entertain and open the can of worms that is public health advice, one could very easily argue that there have been numerous examples of where the same sort of infiltration with regards to the education of doctors through Big Pharma has actually come into the field of public health education through Big Food. And so when we have a look at things like what is the healthy eating pyramid, which has at the top a very small amount of fats and refined sugars and then right down the bottom is the basis of your healthy eating, whole grains and cereals. We then look towards the history of where that healthy eating pyramid came from. And of course it has been sponsored by the cereal manufacturers and Kellogg's, and Sanitarium, and these big name brands that actually have got money to invest it in keeping the population in that paradigm wherein they are dependent and thinking that they are doing the best for themselves if they are basing their eating around that healthy food pyramid. So there are alternative versions of that and you know since we are in the instant information age where now you can you know have some kind of a hypothesis and then test it out by putting in a Google search or going into chat GPT or something like this. People generally come to health professionals with a degree of education that they have found themselves because they've used that natural curiosity that they have to go and put it into a computer to work out what's going on with themselves. You know, people are generally educated about gut health and things like that. And when they do become educated about this, then they do recognise that that infiltration of the public health message through vested interests, and I guess that sort of takes me to the point, wherein you know, I said about in 2019, in 2019 there was a well that they call it they called it a request for public opinion that was put forward by APRA

And in particular, ARPRA stands for Australian Health Practitioner Regulatory Authority, and with a big A and then all small letters. And they put forward that in 2019, and they sought expressions of interest from the public, that perhaps there should be one set of rules for doctors in particular who are just...

Dr Jen Draper | (12:21)

conventional doctors. They don't do anything that's outside of what's the mainstream approved methods of care. And then another set of rules for doctors who, in their practice, utilise other tools that they have actually self-funded their education and training within. So it was very interesting when you said you thought that I might have mentioned meditation. Well, I...

had to pay for my own training in meditation. I did not receive that as part of a free pharmaceutical-funded CPD event. I forked out and went along to training sessions, which were then delivered to us not as a group of just doctors but as a group of health practitioners. So naturopaths, chiropractors, homeopaths.

Osteopaths and all of these different subspecialties of healthcare, which had been deliberately ratted out of the physician's armamentarium. When you look at the history of it, it actually went back to the early part of the 20th century, and so when I

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (13:37)

What happened?

Dr Jen Draper | (13:38)

So there was a report called the Flexner Report, which some people may be familiar with. And Abram Flexner was commissioned to deliver a report to the Carnegie Institute in the early part of the 20th century. And the big name behind that was John D. Rockefeller, who, of course, was an oil magnate. And I'm not sure if you're aware, but the origin of pharmaceutical agents actually comes from byproducts of the petroleum industry. So what happened was that the Flexner report suggested that the way to train the most appropriate doctors for the population was to be teaching them that homeopathy, naturopathy, all of these alternative healing modalities, frequency medicine, etc.

They're all just quackery, and they needed to be discouraged actively because, well, let's face it, we're really talking about true healing. And the intention of the Flexina report was to breed a population that was so dependent upon doctors who quite clearly learned within their medical institutions, the pathology and the pharmacology of these drugs which would basically be nothing more than poisons with selected effects called the therapeutic effect, and the ones that we didn't like, guess what we call them? Side effects. So all drugs are poisons, and when towards the end of my medical career, people would ask for my opinion, and I would be coming out with things like, well, all drugs are poisons, you do realise that, don't you?

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (15:18)

Side effects. Side effects.

Dr Jen Draper | (15:35)

And you've asked for my opinion. Well, opinions are like assholes, we've all got one. What makes mine smell any better than someone else's? And then the worst one that I felt like saying so often was you want to find out my lived experience after I'd clarified about opinion. I'd said, Look, I'm happy to give you my lived experience. My lived experience is that if the public health advice is this, perhaps we should start by doing completely the opposite, and we might be heading towards getting yourself out of that system of being completely disempowered as to your own capacity to heal. Because I mean we're all living, thinking beings, we can make decisions for ourselves, but the issue is that when you are feeling unwell and you move into that state of fear and you are seeking reassurance, number one, it's really great to have someone on your side. But I would encourage the people who are listening to this and view this afterwards to be very selective as to whom you choose to be on your side, and make sure that they are like-minded with you, and they recognise what your wishes are. If you are someone who is anti-drugs for whatever reason, if perhaps because you recognise that drugs are never going to heal you. They are only going to manipulate your body in a direction away from what your symptoms have been telling you that there's something out of balance here. So you put in something that's exogenous into that mix, thinking that you're healing. Well, no, you've just signed yourself up to patiently being a patient.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (17:25)

I'd like to really clarify that for a moment because you're saying that drugs will not heal us. And I am trying to very much make peace with everybody and make peace with the truth because I know that there are people out there who don't want an anti-pharmaceutical

message that could look like it's anti-medicine, anti-health, things like that. Especially, especially because I have to look like I'm making the right decision and we all do in a way. But at the same time, I know that if I get rest and eat the right things and have less stress, then suddenly my head is clearing up and I'm not getting that weird fuzzy feeling in my head. It's like when

Dr Jen Draper | (17:56)

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (18:22)

The right things are happening. It's a step. And yet there are people who will say, take this particular drug that could do all these things. So, in terms of how you are framing this industry, what can we do to make sure that we are finding a peaceful response to these industries and really showing everybody the truth, essentially.

Dr Jen Draper | (18:56)

Sure. Well, the first thing that I would say is that the truth is a matter of perspective. And I feel like we are actually saying exactly the right thing. The thing, I apologise, not the right thing because right and wrong is actually a matter of perspective. And when you in a place of fear and you are looking for whatever solution is going to give you relief quickly,

That is the ideal patient to be attending a conventional healthcare practitioner because they are going to be seeking a quick fix, and let's face it, we have a system of six-minute medicine in Australia. The other thing that I'll pick up on is you used the words medicine and health interchangeably and I would very much argue that point.

So what is your definition of health? I think you hinted at it when you've had enough rest, and you've allowed yourself to de-stress, and you've eaten well, and you've woken yourself in from a great sleep, and you're feeling healthy. And so some people define health as the absence of dis-ease, and I deliberately am saying that as two words.

Some people say that it's no labels. And by the way, a label is just a diagnosis. So yes, we can, we can definitely go on to that. And so what I'm saying, and when I say drugs do not heal you, drugs mitigate the symptoms that your body gives forward when you present them in a certain perspective to

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (20:30)

I'd love to explore that by the way in a moment.

Dr Jen Draper | (20:51)

The listening prescriber. So there is a different way that you can consider a symptom that your body gives forth. And that different way is certainly not something that the majority of people within the health space, I use the term loosely, within the sickness industry, that is designed for quick fixes, reassurance, working out if it's normal.

Or if there is something that is life-threatening, because that is the one thing. I am not saying that we could live without doctors. I am just saying that there are many, many steps along the way that you, as an empowered individual who's going to be listening to this podcast, can take before you jump into the space of worrying about what is the pathology that is going on with me because

That's what the sickness healthcare professionals are designed to do: diagnose, pathologise, etc. There is a different way, and what that is, is to listen to your body as it gives you patterns as to what is going on. So, for example, when I was working as a doctor, I was 30 kilos heavier than I am now and every step that I took

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (22:14)

No!

Dr Jen Draper | (22:17)

was immense pain. So every single step on my feet, I was in agony and was very, very sad because of the pain that I was experiencing. Now the labels that were given to me, variously, were plantar fasciitis, okay, which some people call heel spurs, okay. Have you heard of heel spurs?

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (22:37)

What's that?

Dr Jen Draper | (22:43)

Well it's basically a condition when the very underneath of your sole of your foot, which should be a supportive mechanism, is so inflamed as it's hooking onto the bone, it's kind of pulling on your bone with every step. And if that continues for a long period of time, then little bony spurs grow into that support to try and reinforce.

So I now recognise that energetically what nobody was saying to me and what I knew myself was you're too damn fat and heavy. Okay, that's one aspect, but as health professionals, we are indoctrinated to not insult the patient. To not tell the truth. Well, some do, some doctors do, and they're very blunt, and they come out and say Listen, you need to lose weight.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (23:26)

No, so you can't say it.

Dr Jen Draper | (23:37)

But because perhaps because I was a doctor and my general practitioner wanted to support me and wanted to not disempower me, I knew myself that I was too heavy and I was attempting to lose weight, but I couldn't because I was working such long hours and restricting my exercise and being sedentary and every step hurt.

So as I would exercise more, I would get more pain. So it became a vicious cycle of avoiding the symptoms. knowing what I know now, energetically, feet, when you're putting your feet forward, I wasn't putting my best foot forward. The path that I was walking was not serving my higher self in my best intention. And when I stopped working,

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (24:21)

Literally.

Dr Jen Draper | (24:31)

That was when I started healing. That was when I started losing weight. That was when I could make time for myself. And I did have some interventions. I had some interventions while I was still working because I did think that I could change this feeling that I had that somehow, within this system, which was working by design to keep the patients in that pattern of giving away their power and trusting what I said and trusting that I was a caring individual who really wanted what was best for them. And I actually did, but think about it logically. A healed patient is no longer a patient.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (25:14)

You don't make money if someone doesn't need to fix something with you.

Dr Jen Draper | (25:17)

Exactly, and this is the essence of the sickness industry, especially when you look in countries where it's so driven by the diagnoses and the coding and the funding, which, guess what, that's Australia as well, and that, yeah, yeah.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (25:37)

Let's, some time aside for that in this chat.

Dr Jen Draper | (25:40)

Yeah, yeah. So I became quite cynical, and that cynicism really doesn't sit naturally with the type of woman that I am. I am a caring individual. Really, I don't like to offend people, but I do like to challenge them, and the time that you have in a six-minute medicine consult, when people come with one problem and they just want a quick fix, they don't want to hear the energetics behind and how they might be able to fix the problem themselves. They just want you to fix, please.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (26:12)

I have a question there. So,

So we know that a GP appointment is pretty quick, and it sounds like that happens in other countries, as well as Australia, America, probably elsewhere as well. You said six minutes. I can't remember what time slot I normally get when I book a doctor, but are you saying your average chat was six minutes? And also, sorry, one other thing. Did people also not want the longer solution?

Dr Jen Draper | (26:41)

So, a couple of things. First of all, six-minute medicine is a term that came from the initiation of Medicare, which was perhaps before you were born. But back in the 80s, when Medicare first came in, it was touted that for an efficient business model, the average GP consult would be six minutes, which is just long enough to make the diagnosis, write the prescription and say, See you whenever.

So this is this reactive format of healthcare where you have a problem, you go to the doctor, you get it fixed, and then you go back, and you only go when you're sick. So as I mentioned, I had a very different model within my practice. I called it wing and wellbeing. I innocently thought that I could keep people healthy and well, but as I said, healthy, well people don't come to the doctor, even thinking that they'll just have a checkup. If you are assessing them within the paradigms of Western medicine and your definition of health is the absence of dis-ease, then our healthcare system is actually geared towards the chronic disease management problem. So it's recently been changed on the 1st of July. They apparently changed the system. I don't know, I'm not part of it anymore, but the Medicare funding model wherein we all pay a portion of our taxes so that there is this universal insurance system called Medicare, which funds the majority of general practice in Australia. And when you go to the doctor and you are bulk billed, what that means is that you are assigning that Medicare dollars that are associated with that item number, which represents the time that you spent in that consultation with that GP directly over to the doctor and the reason why it became six minutes is because the item number for a brief consultation, brief consultation is zero to five minutes. A standard consultation is six to 19 minutes. So that's a wide range, and you could do a standard consultation once that timer went over six minutes.

And that is where the six minute medicine came from in terms of that the standard item number, which is an item number 23, would be most efficient for the running of general practices, which are basically businesses, to be seeing and dealing with the patients and their problems and keeping them pigeonholed in this paradigm wherein it was an efficient way of doing business. And then what was your second question? Sorry.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (29:24)

The other thing you said that people didn't want the long-term solution. They wanted the quick fix. I'm sensing a bit of, what's the phrase? A bit of instant gratification going on there. What do you think was happening?

Dr Jen Draper | (29:29)

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Well, you heard me previously use the term codependency. So I do feel that and you also heard me say a healed patient is no longer a patient. So I believe that with the caring approach that I took to my patients, there was a certain number of them that would want to see me just even for a bit of reassurance without necessarily having a problem that they wanted to fix or they could well have had a hidden agenda, something that they felt too uncomfortable actually expressing to the GP and sometimes that problem was not physical, sometimes it would be emotional, sometimes it would have quite intricate layers to it which would take time to unravel and it was a rare

Someone that I saw, whom I met for the first time, who would give me their whole life story and kind of let it all out. But it became more common because the process that I had for the intake into new patients in my practice, when I was teaching, I had a registrar doctor, and I specifically gave the registrar a template for moving through the history, which would give me clues as to what may be the underlying reasons behind the patterns that would show up within that individual. Over time, what it led me to recognise was that somewhere between 90 and 95 % of presenting issues that people feel is of relevance to discuss with their general practitioner have actually got a root in the meanings that they have taken on board through the significant emotional experiences that they've had all through their life. And I'll say that again, it's the meanings that they have taken on board, and they keep telling themselves as a response to the significant emotional events that they have gone through in their life.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (31:51)

That line there, the word meaning, because I had sensed for a while that if there's something going on, maybe constant headaches, it's sometimes clear to even the most mainstream follower that if there are headaches for that long, maybe there could be something medical, or maybe there's a whole lot of stress. So we know that, but you're saying that there's a meaning assigned to these things.

Dr Jen Draper | (32:15)

Yes,

yes. So I'll give you an example, and I was less well-resourced to deal with this when I was a medical doctor. So, subsequent to that, I haven't even spoken to you about what I do now, apart from saying that I'm a holistic transformation coach. So after I had my own period of healing and overcoming my excessive weight and my very painful feet

And also I was burnt out, so I had a degree of depression, and I was incredibly teary and sorry for myself and feeling disheartened and guilty for walking away from a successful medical thriving practice with lots and lots of patients, know, waiting lists of years long, et cetera, et cetera. I walked away from all of it because I put myself first.

But the lesson that I would like to draw upon is actually from a client who I spoke to just today. And her problem was that I knew about when I was a doctor, and I prescribed, I diagnosed tension headaches, migraines at that time, and I prescribed for her. And she was on medication. And I had stopped being a doctor, and she had gone to another doctor. And what had happened with the medication that had been prescribed, the dose had been increased and increased and increased, and was she getting any better? No, she wasn't. In fact, she was so unwell that when she had had her last holiday, she had actually ended up in the intensive care unit. Yeah, vomiting so severely.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (33:51)

Do you think that was partly in relation to or in response to the increase in medication?

Dr Jen Draper | (33:57)

It may have had something to do with it, but more so, what it had to do with it was nobody was actually addressing the root cause, and so she then said to me she was desperate, and I said I'm not a doctor anymore. I can't give you medical advice. I can't give you labels. Sorry diagnoses. I can't prescribe, but I can actually help you to change things to really transform, and what had turned out was that these chronic headaches were a representation physically of an internal mismatch in the stories that she was telling herself. And it turned out that she had two main areas of dysfunction in her relationship and in her workplace. And in her relationships, she was not asking for what she really needed.

She was just drawing into herself, and she was missing out on emotional connection, on feeling safe, on feeling honoured. And in her workplace, she was over-exerting herself. She was solving all of the micromanagement problems and feeling like the culture of the place was terrible, but she was powerless to fix it. And she was just so, so out of balance that every day without fail at a certain time she would get a headache, and it would persist, and she would, you know, take some time out, perhaps take some paracetamol, which by the way is a very bad thing to reach for easily. Well, because paracetamol is a very effective poison, and it has been one of the biggest marketing tricks that because of course

Drugs can't be marketed to the populace unless they're considered safe. You can buy them in Coles.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (35:53)

So what would it do to us really quickly, because I wanted to know what happened and whether this woman healed, but what does it happen?

Dr Jen Draper | (35:57)

Yes, well, she has healed. Well what happened what happens with paracetamol If someone takes wants to kill themselves wants to end their lives they take an overdose of paracetamol ⁓ then they will go into liver failure and die because what paracetamol does is it depletes this particular ⁓ amino acid in our body that is the precursor for glutathione and glutathione is kind of like our super fighter against oxidative stress which is like ⁓ what happens as an end result of chemical reactions in our body. So if you end up in the emergency department after you've taken an overdose of paracetamol, they give you the precursor amino acid, which, by the way, you can buy online, it's called NAC, N-acetylcysteine. It's an amazing antioxidant that peps you up.

I don't recommend taking that all the time, either, but all of these people who chronically take paracetamol are suppressing their glutathione, causing their liver to have to detoxify all of this extra paracetamol that they're taking and slowly poisoning themselves. So yes.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (37:07)

You said liver. Hang on.

And of course, some people would take this after drinking too much.

Dr Jen Draper | (37:14)

Yes, of course. Yeah, so you can see the contradictions within it, but it's a quick fix. Okay. And in part, some of the detoxification processes that your body goes through actually make you feel unwell. So why not reduce the detoxification potential to make you feel better? And that's exactly what paracetamol does.

So that's the mechanism whereby it's working by depleting your glutathione that's actually helping you to detoxify and you know you've heard no pain no gain so yeah yeah so anyway yeah no she she wasn't she would only occasionally take the paracetamol mostly she would just go and sit and reflect but what's happened since we've been working together and we've been doing the transformation healing journey she has gradually with her gps awareness

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (37:50)

So that's what this woman was taking, and then what happened?

Dr Jen Draper | (38:08)

been reducing down her medication. She's been literally doing the inner work and clearing these trapped emotions and clearing out these limiting beliefs that have kept her locked in this pattern, and she's rebalanced and recalibrated, and in the last week, she's had one headache instead of daily headaches. So I think that's a win, and I was incredibly overjoyed to be speaking with her today in our coaching session.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (38:37)

That's amazing. Are you saying that people's relational or emotional issues can be manifesting physically?

Dr Jen Draper | (38:48)

I'm saying exactly that. I am saying that your body keeps the score. So when you have significant emotional events in your upbringing, if the events that happened for you at that time were too painful for your conscious memory to keep they get pushed down into your subconscious, and the equivalent of your subconscious is the body, and there's a book by Bessel van der Koek called Body Keeps the Score. And this is the basis of trauma-informed practice that people like Gabor Mate and Dr Russell Kennedy, and all of these people around the world are starting to bring to the awareness of common people that when your body is giving you signals, it does not necessarily mean you need to go to a doctor, and I'm here to reaffirm that. I'm here to say that I use tools. There's one tool in particular that I use and I have no affiliation with this at all but this is a book that's called The Secret Language of the Body by Inna Segal and that was suggested to me back in the very early stages of my healing as I was breaking away and slowly recognising that being a medical doctor, i.e glorified drug pusher, was not my in my highest self's best interest, I started having some Bowen therapy. Are you familiar with Bowen therapy?

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (40:16)

feels like the word is familiar, but let's explain it to those who don't know.

Dr Jen Draper | (40:21)

Well I don't know that much about it apart from the fact that it really helped me but it's a very gentle body work modality of healing wherein by indicating the areas of your body in which you feel symptoms with a pressure release technique the little trigger points dissolve and that's then backed up by the therapist suggesting some self-care habits like you were hinting at. Good rest, good hydration, some gentle exercises and then my Bowen therapist suggested that book to me, and in this book, if you have a symptom that's in a particular part of your body, then you can look it up and it will speak about some repressed or stored emotions that can actually be resulting in symptoms in that particular body part. Would you like to have a go? Have you got any kind of symptom that troubles you?

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (41:18)

any symptom at all. Look, right now, right now it's different than weeks ago and I had plenty of anoxototes but right now my back is feeling just a bit stuck because I've been sitting a bit. Yes, in the middle, so along the spine just above the desk.

Dr Jen Draper | (41:20)

Yeah, well, I can always say yeah.

Yeah?

Whereabouts in your back? In the middle or in the lower back?

Mm-hmm. So the thoracic spine, would you say? Yeah, so the thoracic spine is sort of like from above your bra, where your bra sits, sort of there, and above that, then that would be your lumbar spine. So I'll just look up lumbar spine 110 109 to 110, and then the idea with this is you know, as I was saying, I believe truth is a matter of perspective.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (41:43)

I guess. Okay, I'd say it's below that.

Dr Jen Draper | (42:07)

So you take with what resonates with you, and you don't take it as gospel. But in the lumbar spine, if it's just below where your briar is, that might be, say, L1 or L2. Those are just L1, which is like the first lumbar vertebra, second lumbar vertebra, anatomically. So L1 says, and just see if any of this resonates with you, feeling poisoned by resentment, stagnation and unresolved issues from the past.

Your thoughts and words don't align with your actions, leading to feelings of confusion, depression, criticism and sadness. In order to heal, you need to forgive, move forward and begin to take positive action. On a physical level, you may experience constipation, colitis, diarrhoea and hernias. Does any of that resonate?

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (42:55)

Most of it, except the constipation, diarrhea and hernias.

Dr Jen Draper | (42:59)

Wow, well, isn't that great because it says on a physical level, you may experience or you may not. Yeah yeah.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (43:04)

Yes, of course. No, no.

I mean, no one needs to hear about how my gut has been going lately. That's its own journey. But I'd say, okay. I just wasn't going to admit to a few of those things in a recording.

Dr Jen Draper | (43:16)

Yeah, pretty amazing, hey. Yeah, and shallow.

That's okay, there was an awful lot of them in there. So do you want me to read L2 in case we're a little high? I'll read L2. Feeling like there is little or no choice, a sense of giving up, too much focus on the outside world and what you're not getting, rather than on your inner strengths. You need to deal with your childhood pain and low self-esteem. Feeling powerless regarding your situation and pushing yourself over your limit. Any of that resonate?

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (43:29)

Okay.

Okay, yes, and I just wanted to say before anyone shrugs this off as a fortune cookie, this is so accurate that it's like this book had listened in on my phone calls because I don't keep a journal, but seriously.

Dr Jen Draper | (44:05)

So you can see why, when my Bowen therapist suggested and loaned me the book, I went out and bought my own copy, and I found it in Big W. So I was pretty impressed. Yeah, and the thing is, there are so many resources out there on the internet that are free. You just need to be curious and to know where to look. And I guess my main message is to say to people that

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (44:18)

Easy to get.

Dr Jen Draper | (44:33)

Stepping into the fear and outsourcing your power is really rarely going to be in your best interest when you are dealing with something that is chronic. When you are dealing with something that is acute even then listening to your body and noticing patterns of when the physical or the emotional symptom happens or even when you get triggered. Do you know what getting triggered means?

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (45:01)

My understanding is that something in the moment is prompting a response that we would have had to something else years ago.

Dr Jen Draper | (45:11)

That is a great description, a really good description. Another way to think about it is that you momentarily lose control of your conscious brain because your prefrontal cortex, in that very instant, actually does go offline because your amygdala is firing, and the amygdala is part of the limbic brain system, very close to the brain stem, which is the basis of the autonomic nervous system which we are different from all mammals in that it's only us and apes that have this big wiggly cortex up the top. But that primitive fight or flight, or the opposite, the brakes, rest and digest, the accelerator or the brakes, one or the other is going on. So going through life continuously with your foot on the accelerator, not allowing the pauses, well, you're run out of fuel, aren't you?

And that's the autonomic nervous system being overstimulated. And at whatever time it was in the past, when that experience that you had was so painful, your consciousness didn't want to keep it in memory. As children, we have this amazingly protective response, which is the trauma centres of the brain, of which the amygdala is the primary one, which packages that away such that consciously you won't be continuously reminded of that memory. But when you are triggered your ego takes a little break and it feels like the experience and the emotion maybe with some scattered fragments is actually happening right then and there and straight away you go into the fight-or-flight freeze-forn response. And it can be incredibly difficult to then rationalise your way out of that, the way to bring yourself back into some parasympathetic, put the brakes on, is your breath. So, your breath you can consciously control, and the majority of the time it is under unconscious control. So always remember that when you are triggered, a long, slow exhale will bring the brakes back on and allow some time for your prefrontal cortex to come back online, and then you can recognise that that feeling that you get in your body is almost exactly the same every single time that it happens. So don't feel that you need to give in to that amygdala fear-based response when you are triggered if you remember that you can breathe.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (47:57)

wondering, first of all, I'm wondering if there's any possibility that we can't stop it like we're so controlled sometimes. So that's the first question. I'm bundling the questions too much. I'm wondering, sometimes are we, okay, I'll bundle them. So firstly, are we sometimes so controlled and not even observing that the switch has been made? And also the frame of reference

Dr Jen Draper | (48:11)

Mmm, that's okay.

Correct.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (48:27)

That I have, and I've made an art out of saying things without saying it. I think that my most dysfunctional, extremely close friendships involved almost constant dialogue or close to it. And it was like a part of the brain was constantly going because when you're doing writing or talking and all this constant verbal, I'm wondering, I'm wondering if you're saying that we can switch off some of the triggers by actually putting on the mental breaks. So not talking, talking, talking, talking as much as I love talking between into these conversations. But do you think that we can switch off the brain and switch off the triggers when we step back from all of the dialogue for a moment?

Dr Jen Draper | (49:13)

I would actually say probably not because you can, of course, receive a trigger verbally, but the reality is that our external communication and the meaning that we communicate with each other, probably only seven per cent of that comes from the words that we say. The vast majority of communication comes through our physiology

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (49:16)

Okay.

Dr Jen Draper | (49:41)

And our tonality, and then it's seven per cent that's actually our words. So our brain is an amazing organ that processes 11 billion bits per second of information and you know even the fastest of our speakers of people who speak can only speak at about a hundred words per minute.

So that even and writing and typing, that's a pretty fast writer or typist to give 100 words per minute. So, yet your thoughts, you can be the self-talk is going at about 400 words per minute. So therefore to get those words out, you're only using about 25 % of your brain function. And then the meaning itself comes from the words in only an even smaller part of that. So,

Yes, you can be triggered, but once the triggering is happening, to try and use the conscious brain, the neocortex, the wiggly bit up the top to pause the triggering is almost impossible because the fear centres have taken over, the trauma centres and as I mentioned, there's only two halves of the autonomic nervous system. You've got your sympathetic nervous system, which is your fight, flight, freeze, flop, fawn, the protective, short-lived responses that are designed to get you out of danger.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (51:08)

What were those last ones? Because for a while, we were only talking about fight or flight. What are the other ones?

Dr Jen Draper | (51:10)

Fight. Yeah, yeah.

So fight and flight you get. Freeze means to just put the ball. So think eagle spies a little bit of prey. Well, it doesn't want a dead prey. So you freeze, and the eagle thinks you're dead. So that's the freeze response. Flop is just another version of the freeze, but literally to go limp. Yeah. Or fawn. Now fawn is

Very interesting one, but think about idolising someone.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (51:47)

Gosh, are you saying that putting someone on a pedestal is a trigger response? My goodness. There we are. And this is why the podcast is everybody's therapy. Right.

Dr Jen Draper | (51:52)

Can be a trauma response. Yes. Yes.

Yes, yes. So that's the sympathetic, okay. And then the parasympathetic is the rest and digest. So that's the pause. That's the sacred pause before action. That's the grace before you eat.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (52:03)

My god.

Dr Jen Draper | (52:21)

That's the feeling that you get when there's joy and when your body floods with you know these beautiful hormones that put you into that space of just deep joy and satisfaction. So that Zen bliss cannot exist when you are pushing the accelerator.

So, to find the balance between the two of you. Now I'm not saying that we don't need to push the accelerator because, of course, having a degree of nerves or stress, like not all stress is bad. Stress engenders performance. Stress allows you to achieve your best, and it's the balance of allowing yourself the rest after the performance.

That will keep you in the ability to regulate between those two autonomic emotional states. So a great thing is a lot of my learnings from this whole area of neuroscience comes from a very good friend of mine. I mentioned his name before, who is a neuroscientist and author of a book that's called Anxiety RX, Dr. Russell Kennedy. And he speaks about a game that he used to play with his daughter when she was little that would cultivate the ability to go from those extremes of the accelerator into the brake. And that was called the sea monster, where she would go to him sea monster, and then she would run and he would chase her around the house. And there'd be lots of lily excitement, excitement, you know, that's the flight. And then finally, she would allow herself to be caught, and there would be a big cuddle at the end. And there was all of that joy. So it's that self-regulation from the extreme to the relaxed and that's very much part of Eastern practices like Qigong, where it's all very parasympathetic, and then all of a sudden you go ha and then come back to the peace. doing these things consciously can actually help us with our own self-regulation. So you were asking about stopping the triggers. There are various self-help strategies that I have learned since stopping from the nine to five, well actually it was eight to six grind of being a doctor, being on call 24 seven. I mean, it really wasn't in my highest self-spaced interest. And I look back on that now and I'm just so grateful that I recognised it before I was too old to, well, you're never too old, but before I came to the end of my career.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (55:06)

And the reason is that you went back to your own burnout. And, and one thing I really wanted to ask you, and we will get more time to talk another time because you're teaching so much about everything. ⁓ lot of health practitioners or health therapists of various sorts are becoming burned out. And I'm seeing a trend.

I've never been a health professional of any sort, but even some of the earliest guests on this show talked about a similar thing: burnout working in the health industry. So, for those who do want to keep trying to make that world a better place as much as they can or however they can, do you have any suggestions for those who need to get a bit more self-care when they are still in that world?

Dr Jen Draper | (55:58)

Yeah, yeah, that is a really good question, and the first thing is to pay attention to your own intuition and don't be railroaded into doing things that go against your gut instinct. So if it doesn't pass the sniff test, then it doesn't pass the sniff test, and if you are feeling like the pattern of care that you are giving is disingenuous with what your heart is telling you and you continue to not listen to your heart, then you will end up in the burnt out pile because honoring our values is the way for us to reach the basic five human needs of feeling safe and getting control, being challenged and feeling like change is a good thing, feeling like you matter. You've got to be in alignment with your values, having love and connection and that soul expansion and contribution, which we can achieve only when we have met all of those preceding needs. So listen to your gut, trust yourself, and remember what I said about opinions.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (57:13)

Yes, there will always be more opinions, especially one thing I've seen on the recipient and in the healthcare land is that every specialist, every person, I'm guessing you probably saw that even every doctor will have a different opinion about every.

Dr Jen Draper | (57:28)

Truth is a matter of perspective, and in fact, what you see, what you perceive out there in the world, is actually what you project. This natural law, law of attraction, law of reciprocity, this is the essence. You know I was attracted to you purely because you needed to hear what I had to say. So don't discount your own power because society will have you stripped of it. I mean, you've probably heard of calcification of the pineal gland. Or is that another topic for another day?

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (58:07)

Let's delve into that a lot soon. We definitely are you okay to do a part two soon?

Dr Jen Draper | (58:10)

Sure.

I would be more than happy to do a part two, Melanie. I would be delighted. And you can stack the questions up. Well, considering this is the first time that you met me, I'm sure that you've got lots of interesting questions. And I would be happy to do a part two.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (58:20)

Hope you have a great

I'm so glad I have a whole list of questions for next time. Jen, thank you so much. I think we'll keep learning from you all the time. You're bridging the gap between the two different sides of health. Thank you.

Dr Jen Draper | (58:42)

You are welcome. Thank you for having me.

Show Notes

Episode title

Building Our Own Tables: Lisa Jimenez on She Is Me, safe spaces, and the power of women co-creating

Episode description

Domestic-violence survivor and She Is Me founder Lisa Jimenez joins host Melanie Suzanne Wilson to share how a 28-woman virtual conference grew into a global ecosystem—magazine, books, stages, grants, and community—in 63 countries. We dig into running online events with integrity (sales vs service), collaboration over competition, funding and "building our own tables," soft power in leadership, and practical steps women can take to grow independence, creativity, and community.

Content note

This episode discusses domestic violence and safety planning. If you're in immediate danger, call 000 (Australia) / 911 (US). Australia: 1800RESPECT (1800 737 732); Lifeline 13 11 14.

Guest

Lisa Jimenez — Founder, She Is Me

* Survivor, advocate, and community builder creating safe spaces for women's stories

* Former corporate product development/marketing leader; producer of thousands of events (virtual & in-person)

* Leads She Is Me's ecosystem: global stages, virtual events, magazine, anthologies/books, grants and programs designed to raise women's voices and support financial independence

Chapters (timestamps)

* **00:01** Welcome & what She Is Me is: a global ecosystem raising women's voices

* **02:49** Running virtual events that actually connect; being transparent about sales vs service

* **05:21** Balancing mission and money; pricing for value; research before you plan

* **06:50** Non-profit conference model; where revenue fits (and doesn't)

* **08:32** "There's enough for everyone": collaboration > competition; post-COVID community

* **12:13** Co-creating to reduce burnout and failure; sharing the load

* **14:34** Soft power and redefining success; ease, freedom, and impact over hustle

* **18:10** New systems led by women; rejecting glass ceilings and scarcity tactics

* **20:03** Programs that support women without MLM models

* **21:47** Why traditional "upline" structures don't serve mothers or carers

* **25:11** "We're building our own tables" — beyond politics, corporate, and old systems

* **26:04** Funding gaps & creating women-led finance and philanthropy

* **27:40** From "cute side hustle" to credible leadership; rejecting "girl boss" tropes

* **30:42** Nervous-system friendly business (no fake urgency)

* **33:18** Business as a force for good; profits → grants; access without devaluing

* **38:19** Lisa's story (CW): leaving safely; court realities; why systems must change

* **51:31** Raising compassionate leaders; parenting & culture shift

* **53:26** Control dynamics, power gaps, and red flags

* **56:43** Three practical steps for women to build independence

* **1:02:16** Closing: create & connect

Key takeaways

* **Safety first & plan**: Leaving abusive relationships requires planning (money, documents, safe places, pet care).

* **Mission vs revenue**: Be transparent about sales; design value that matches price; research your audience before you plan.

* **Collaboration kills burnout**: Co-creation spreads load, boosts accountability, and reduces failure risk.

* **Build new systems**: Don't chase a seat at broken tables; create women-led funding, lending, and leadership models.

* **Soft power is real power**: Empathy, community, and reciprocity outperform hustle & scarcity tactics.

* **Independence in 3 moves**: curb frivolous spend, **create** (right-brain health & freedom), and **find your chosen family** with true reciprocity.

# Memorable quotes

* "**We're not asking for a seat at your table—we're building our own tables.**"

* "**There's enough for everyone.**"

* "**Ease and freedom—not more money—are the end goal.**"

* "**When we co-create, the chance of failure drops dramatically.**"

* "**Power is in our softness—in empathy, community, and allowing.**"

# Resources & mentions (from the conversation)

* **She Is Me**: global community (magazine, anthologies/books, stages, virtual events, grants)

* **YouTube** as a free learning well (skills, crafts, gardening, creativity)

* **Animal-shelter partners** that temporarily house pets for women leaving unsafe homes (concept discussed)

Call to action

• Share this episode with someone building community—or someone who needs to hear they're not alone.

• Subscribe to The Motivate Collective Podcast on your favorite app and leave a quick rating/review.

Credits

Host: Melanie Suzanne Wilson

Guest: Lisa Jimenez (She Is Me)

Production: The Motivate Collective

Music/Editing: (add your credit)

Contact: https://www.motivatecollective.com/contact | motivatecollective.com/podcast

SEO keywords

She Is Me, women helping women, domestic violence survivor stories, safe spaces for women, collaboration over competition, women's leadership, soft power, women-led funding, community building, virtual events, grants for women, Melbourne Sydney Newcastle podcast (AU), The Motivate Collective.

Transcript

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (00:01)

Welcome to the podcast, Lisa from the She is Me movement. You are doing amazing work to give a voice to women around the world. Welcome.

Lisa Jimenez (00:14)

Thank you. Thank you for having me.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (00:18)

I would like to start with curiosity about what exactly you are building and what you have created.

Lisa Jimenez (00:26)

Sure.

So She Is Me is a global ecosystem of women helping women. And it's basically our number one priority is to raise women's voices. And we started six years ago with a modest conference of about 28 women, whom I called personally, people that I knew and said, Hey, do you want to help me organise this conference and sort of raise women's voices and tell our stories because I am a survivor of domestic violence. I survived an attempted murder in 2006. And after that, I really worked on healing and wanted to share my story because I didn't want any other woman to ever have to go through what I went through. And so I wanted to create the safe space where we could tell our stories so that women knew that they weren't alone, right? Because that's one thing that we experience is shame and judgment. So we don't speak up and we don't tell, we keep the secrets. So I wanted to create this environment where we could all come together and hear each other's stories and be able to feel strength and to be able to know that we weren't alone and not feel shame and be able to take action, right, to have a better life. So we started with this small conference, and then we started doing, and this was in 2020, 2021, so this was COVID, so it was perfect to be able to do this, you digital or virtual experience. And since then, we've just expanded. So now that we're trying to use every vehicle that we can to raise women's voices, because not every woman is ready to stand up on a stage or even in front of a camera. So we have a magazine, we publish anthologies, know, books for women to tell their stories. We have stages, we have virtual events. So it's like I said this huge ecosystem. We're in 63 countries and yeah, we're growing. We're coming to Australia soon so I'm really excited about that to do some in-person events. So that's what we're all about.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (02:49)

That's so good. I'm wondering what your experience was with the online events. How did that unfold? What goes well? How do you create a real connection when people are anywhere?

Lisa Jimenez (03:05)

Yeah, so I'm lucky in that I had a very long corporate career, and I knew a lot of people from a lot of places, so I could really just call people and say, you know, do you know anyone? Do you want to tell your story? That kind of thing. And so I got a lot of referrals to begin with.

But it is, you know, the message that we had about telling stories and being together and creating community. I think it was really needed in the world. So it was, it's really caught on and, you know, people have been, you know.

like wanting to be with us. I think it just depends on what your message is and exactly what you're trying to do because it's easy to like get people together and have them all talk together online. But what's your end result? Like, what do you want to happen from that? For us, we want to inspire and empower and educate as many women as we can because there are women in countries, third-world countries that don't, they live in a tent, they might have a cell phone because cell phones are readily available and almost everyone has it and they can go on to our YouTube channel and they can watch the content and you know hear a story that they might be going through or have gone through so That was really our goal is to make sure that no other woman felt alone So really what is your goal is your goal for sales if that's the case? You know, make sure you tell people up front, like make sure you tell people, like hey, we want to sell you something, we want you to come and buy it from us, you know? Like, it doesn't have to be like that, you know, because a lot of times people come to these events and they're like, now you're trying to sell me something. I didn't know that that's what that was all about, you know, just because I was in corporate product development and marketing for a long time. So it's really important that you be upfront and transparent with people. So I think when you're trying to get together, really try, you know, try and figure out, like, who is your audience? What are you trying to do? What is that thing that you're trying to solve for people? And then that's what goes into your messaging.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (05:21)

Yes. Trying to balance selling and creating a social change. I'm very interested in that topic because I dipped my toe into events earlier this year, and I'm so keen to hear your perspective on how to fulfil both needs, because you need to cover the costs of what you are creating and you need to sustain yourself and the people who are helping you to create.

Lisa Jimenez (05:44)

Yes.

Mm-hmm.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (05:50)

However, at the same time, you still want to spread the word about how people can improve their lives. It's the old question. How can we make a difference and also fill our cup? How do you bridge that?

Lisa Jimenez (06:01)

Right.

Right.

Well, for a long time, filling my cup meant just the satisfaction of having a successful event. Really, it wasn't, well, and still the conference is not a money-making event other than sponsorships that just go back into grants for people because we help women get out of financial abuse. that part of it. But we don't charge speakers. We don't charge attendees. We want everyone to have access. So that's really, we go with our conference. There are other products and services within our world that make money, but the conference itself is not a money-making venture. It really fills our cup by being able to help people. But, of course, not everybody can do that. Having started this conference, I had produced thousands of events over my career, both online and in person. So I had the experience and, yes, how do you do that? Well, you have to ⁓ give people value for their money.

And you have to, and I just had this conversation with somebody yesterday about an event that we're doing, actually, in Australia. How do we give them enough value for what they're actually paying for, right? So you have to sort of figure that out on a lot of it. You can ask people before you plan it, you know, what were you? What are you willing to pay? What what is a good value is this add on a good thing? You know, do your research before you just dive into it, or else I guarantee you're gonna lose money.

You also have to weigh out, like, do you want a lot of people there and is, you know, $49 a good amount because most people can afford that and then you'd get more people or, you know, do you want people who aren't time wasters and who aren't going to show up to be there and get something out of it? So there are a lot of factors that go into this, and it really just depends on what it is you're presenting. Is it something that needs to be a special event, one-time thing or you know can you create an evergreen course you know so there are a lot of things to consider but I'm happy to talk to you about whatever it is that you're considering not during this podcast but you know outside of the podcast I'm really happy to talk to you about that.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (08:32)

Sure. For sure. And I hope that anyone can learn from these lessons as well, because as much as I love events, I really believe that in any local area, more people can create their events because whatever I'm doing, I'm not going to be everywhere. I'll be online and I'll be in whichever places I'll be in. But also, everybody has a different angle, and you are giving a voice to women. I've been looking at the whole broad spectrum of looking after yourself and

Lisa Jimenez (09:04)

Yes.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (09:05)

I feel passionate about serving both genders and not only women, but I know that you're focusing on recovering from serious situations. And I can relate to that so much because I've seen all sorts of lived experience to know that we need those safe spaces. So, where I'm going with that is that so many people have a different angle. Some people are passionate about fitness, whatever it might be. And I think that this space, everywhere for so many more gatherings. So I think

Lisa Jimenez (09:37)

There absolutely is.

Yeah, there absolutely is. It's not just because somebody is doing a conference, you can't do it. Everyone has, there's enough for everyone. So just want to say that in the first place, there's enough for everyone.

The other thing, just, you know.

Try not to think about competition because we're really not in competition. If I do an event and you have an event, we're not in competition; we're doing separate things, we have different messages, unless you're copying exactly what we're doing, that's one thing. But typically, there are a lot of women's groups out there, believe me, because I follow all of them and they follow me and we all learn from each other, but everyone has a little bit something different. We are not necessarily just for women of survivors, but women who, like you said it perfectly, need a safe space. And that could be, anytime you want to talk about something that's sensitive, you want to feel safe. You want to be able to feel safe when you voice it.

Definitely, if you're thinking about creating an event and you're thinking about doing it, I would say 100 % do it because one thing that has been very prevalent in our society, especially since COVID, is that we've isolated more and more and more.

You know there are days when I don't leave my desk because I'm just in meetings all day and you know I go to the grocery store and I'm so and I'm talking to everybody and I'm so happy and everyone's like who's that weird lady over there because she's just chatting with everyone because I just I'm so happy to see people but I think more we need more and more community. We need more women to come together. We need to be able to touch each other, you know, like when's the last time you hugged a friend, you know, like just really be out there and collaborating, we talked about that earlier, like let's collaborate on things, let's get together, let's do more and more things when we come together, because when we come together, we're so powerful and we've gotten into this mindset that we have to do it all by ourselves and we have to do it alone and it's not good enough if we don't do it by ourselves. And that's not the case. We need partners, we need collaborators, we need to co-create things so that we don't take on all the burden. Because what happens when we try and do it all ourselves is that we

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (12:13)

Yes.

Lisa Jimenez (12:21)

And we don't succeed, then we feel like a failure, and then we, you know, we don't know how to come back from that, and it takes us a really long time. But when we have people that we're co-creating with and we're collaborating with, you know, things go much faster, you share the load, you just...

And what's the big deal? Like, I want to give you credit. I want to give you kudos. I want to lift you up. I want to say thank you for making this a possibility for me because I, you know, dreamed about these things, but I couldn't do it on my own. Mean, that just feels good, right?

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (13:02)

It really does. I think that the purpose-driven women anywhere are collaborative and generous, and the genuine ones will support each other. I think it's very rare. It happens that sometimes there'll be someone who's always wearing a mask and never takes off the mask, but it's not everybody. And it's, I assume you would have seen that there is some amazingly successful women who really connect as human beings and we can trust each other. And you talked about reaching out for help and not doing it all yourself. I'm guessing this would tie in with the with the feelings of shame or just the pride in asking for a help, because I'm wondering if there's a similar feeling, just like when we are.

Lisa Jimenez (13:35)

Mm-hmm.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (14:00)

exiting a crisis or trying to gradually get out of a crisis. There is that shamed feeling and asking for help. But then also we can feel the same way about whatever we are creating work, something creative or a movement because we want to look successful. Basically, we want to look like we're not failing. think have you

Have you seen a need to overcome the fear of looking like we fail?

Lisa Jimenez (14:34)

Personally, yes, but.

Not for a while. Like I said, I, you know, I worked in a corporate environment where it's very much male-dominated because I was in technology. And that's very much that male-dominated space mentality where they don't ask for help. They've got to do it all themselves. But what happens is then they're taking credit for others' work or their, you know, there's a lot of really terrible things that happen. But

But when we, you know, when we co-create, like, there's almost...

The chances of us failing goes down tremendously, right? Because the other person is, you know, responsible for certain things. And then you feel sort of this accountability, and you feel like you don't want to let that other person down either. And, you know, it is about finding the right partner or group of people to collaborate with, because not every and this is where things come in. Not everyone has the best intentions. Not everybody is on that same, you know level on that same vibration, and you can very easily, if you want something so bad, very easily not see those red flags going into that relationship, because it is a relationship, going into that relationship, in trying to achieve a certain goal, but more often than not, especially self-made women, women CEOs, and women founders who are out there are…

Think more happy to help or co-create something because they've been doing what you're doing They're they're struggling and they're you know as much Let me just tell you this as much as you see advertisements out there on Facebook and Instagram and everything about I made millions and millions of dollars doing this I guarantee you if they were making millions of dollars doing it you wouldn't see their ad every other Time you scroll on the thing, right?

They're it's a machine, and they're not, that I don't think that that is always the truth, just because that's a hustle mentality, and hustle mentality is not the ease of having millions of dollars. So if you've got millions of dollars, you're not creating real after real after real after real after real and out there, you know, it's just that's just my opinion in having, you know, been in business for a really long time and

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (16:54)

Right.

Mmm.

Lisa Jimenez (17:16)

And we don't want to keep doing that. That is not.

our way, right? We want ease. We want peace. We want freedom. And what does freedom mean? Freedom means time. Freedom means being able to take time if you have kids, to be with your kids, take time to travel, take time to sit and watch TV if you want. know, like that's freedom instead of constantly go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, don't have a minute to yourself. Don't know, at your, your super mom or, you know, super CEO, like, that's not what we're trying to achieve. The new leaders of the world that I work with, that's not what we're trying to achieve. We're trying to achieve a life where we are

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (17:59)

Right.

Lisa Jimenez (18:10)

Working with other women, we are creating new systems, and we are creating this ease and freedom in our lives that brings us joy, right? Because the other way just doesn't work. All of the systems and processes that are in place right now, we have been struggling for so many years to try and fit into those, and they weren't built for us. You know, they weren't built for us, and we're just there like running on a treadmill, and we're never getting anywhere. And you hear women, especially in the corporate world, talk about, you know, glass ceilings or glass staircases, and you know, crack the glass ceiling, like, I don't want to bang my head on a glass ceiling. You know what I mean? I don't, I don't, I don't want any of that. I want to be in charge of my life, to be in charge of my business, to help others, and to be happy. And, you know, and I think about my business 24-7. I think about it, I'm going to sleep. I think about it when I wake up. How can I make a bigger impact?

It's not about how much money can I make, it's how can I make a bigger impact because I want women to be able to support themselves. I want women to be able to have that life of ease and to take care of each other, to take care of their kids and not have to worry about how they're gonna pay for daycare if they get a divorce. Why should we have to worry about that? Yeah.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (19:43)

Yes, and that's the negotiation between we're not saying don't have money, you're saying have money, but it's not the end goal.

Lisa Jimenez (19:54)

It's not, yeah, more money is not the end goal. A comfortable, easy life is the end goal, right?

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (20:02)

Yes.

Lisa Jimenez (20:03)

So our programs, just a little plug here, our programs teach you how to have that life without killing yourself and still be able to be at home with your kids. I mean, we've thought about this long and hard. Like, what were the things that we didn't have as we were coming up? My kids are grown. My kids are 32 and 29. My kids are out of the house, but I didn't have that. I didn't have mentors. I didn't have the opportunity.

to work at a job, have my own business, and be able to have people mentor me, support me, and show me how to have a life where I could stay home with my kids and still make enough money to pay my bills and go on vacation. Like we were like how can we create that? How can we create that without that MLM, you know, bringing people, and yeah, we all have done that in fact, I started my

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (20:52)

Yes.

Gosh, I know!

Lisa Jimenez (21:03)

My entrepreneurial career in Mary Kay Cosmetics because I wanted to have a side hustle. And I knew the opportunity was there if I just got out there and did it, you know, and I did for quite a while, and I made really, really good money, but I never, I could never bring people onto my team. I hated selling that part of it. And I think there are a lot of people that do as well.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (21:21)

Wow.

Yes.

Lisa Jimenez (21:33)

And I never wanted to be, I never wanted to be that. I never wanted to say, you can't make more money, or you can't better your career in this organisation, unless you bring people onto your team. Like, no. Yeah.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (21:47)

Wow. So the only way you can progress is by bringing people in.

Lisa Jimenez (21:52)

Yeah, I mean, how many, so you can make money. What you do is you have, you you go to people's houses and you have makeup parties, right? And you have people put on the makeup, and you try the skincare and do all this other stuff. And then they buy their products from you. So how many parties can you have every

And still have time for your kids, your husband, and everything else? One or two or three maybe, but.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (22:13)

Only so many.

Lisa Jimenez (22:20)

You know, is your husband gonna let you be out of the house every three nights a week? I mean, and I said let you because most husbands are be like, no, you need to be home with kids. I'm not.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (22:30)

Wow,

That's alarming in itself.

Lisa Jimenez (22:34)

Right? So if you could, even let's say you aren't married, and how many times a week can you get a babysitter to watch your kids so that you could go out and do ⁓ something? It doesn't matter if it's Mary Kay or Pampered Chef or any of those things, right? So you're limited in how many times you can do those things.

So that's how much money you can make every time. So let's say you make $500 every time you go out, and you do a party like this. But if you have 10 people that work for you under you on your team, you're getting a percentage of everything that they sell.

And you're not doing anything other than you brought them on the team, right? And you're mentoring them or whatever. And then, think about the people who are upline from you. They have now, if you've brought 10, they probably had 10 of you. Now they have a hundred, and then they have, you know, up the line, and they're making money on every single one of those people. So the more people you get, then you move up to the next level. And then if they bring on people, they just keep pushing you up and up and up, right? And that's what you really want. You want that pink Cadillac. You want that director-level income because you can make millions of dollars on all those people below.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (23:53)

So, do you think? I'm wondering, is it really just dangling a carrot when, whatever someone does, even if there are however many people below this person, they are still just a part within someone else's machine?

Lisa Jimenez (24:10)

Yes. Yes. And so that was something that we said we don't want anything to do like that. Like, no, we don't want you to have to sit, like bring people into the organisation for you to reach that financial goal that you want, because there's no way you could have enough parties to make a million dollars. No.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (24:31)

No,

not, not those sorts of parties. Mean, you can create a great event independent of those places. And this ties in, was going to say earlier, you talked about the glass ceiling and people talk about having a seat at the table, but whether it's an MLM or I'm seeing such a nod, whether it's an MLM or politics or corporate.

When you have seen the table, I hope you can relate. I have seen a few tables that didn't look so appetising.

Lisa Jimenez (25:11)

So we say this all the time. We don't want a seat at your table. We are building our own tables. We're building our own tables. We don't need a seat at your table. We saw the look of your table and we don't like your table. We don't want to be there. Yeah.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (25:17)

Yes!

Yes, absolutely.

The table is flimsy, honestly.

The table is made like IKEA and they don't want to admit it.

Lisa Jimenez (25:37)

So we're over here, we're building our own tables, and everyone's welcome, but we're not going over there to your tables, because sometimes there's mean girls at your table, and we don't want to be with the mean girls. We want to be over here. Those structures and processes and everything that are in place right now that I talked about earlier, and I'm talking about politics and corporate and all the stuff, all the machines that are there now that are...

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (25:59)

Yes.

Lisa Jimenez (26:04)

quote unquote normal that we aspire to get into because we're taught to do that, right? What we're working on with women all around the world is creating our own systems, which in fact, our own tables, right? Like, how do we create our own banking, our own mortgage, our own lending, our own female funders? How do we, because right now, like women in, like if you want to start your own company and you want to go and get funding 80 % of all funding goes to men 80 % so how do we then create a lending and funding and philanthropy and stuff like that around women-owned businesses

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (26:54)

Urgent question, why? Why is that percentage not going to women? Why is it so high?

Lisa Jimenez (27:02)

Because traditionally, up until 30 years ago, really, men held all the money. Men controlled all the money. And it wasn't until very, very recently that it was acceptable for a woman to be an entrepreneur, for a woman to start her own business other than in a controlled system like you know an MLM right then you could yeah then it's okay because it's cute it's a little side hustle right it's cute like yeah my wife sells Mary Kay on the side.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (27:40)

Oh, Wow. I am having the biggest light bulb moment because I very recently someone was saying to me, You're doing great. You have a podcast. I mean, the podcast has become amazing in a couple of months, but there was this sort of cuteness about it. And I for so long grew up with also sweet, you're a volunteer, hon. And I think that in so many spaces, I just.

I'm lighting up so much with what you were saying because the cuteness of the side hustle, I'm keen to know what you think about the, I'll make sure I don't quote someone's brand necessarily, but the girl boss image. just, I always just felt like a person, not a cute chick.

You know, and I'm very, very concerned that some of us are sort of shrugged off as adorable, and I'm realising you understand that.

Lisa Jimenez (28:42)

Yes.

Yeah, so I, you know, you can, you can do whatever you want. can call yourself whatever you want. But I think, you know, that whole girl boss, boss bitch, boss babe, you know, that kind of thing really just is kind of power adjacent, right? You're still mimicking the patriarchal systems and everything that are in place. So you're still holding up all of those things, trying to be at that level, trying to compete.

And even the messaging and the...

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (29:20)

toughness.

Lisa Jimenez (29:21)

The toughness, the messaging, like the lack or the fear-based, that kind of stuff is very much similar to what we see all the time. So what we do is more like power is in our softness, right? Power is in our empathy, in our community, in our election.

Allowing things to happen, attracting things in Versus chasing them down and killing them right to make them listen Or scaring them into it if you don't do this right now. You're not getting in; there's only two spots left. You know this whole, yeah, scarcity minds. Yeah

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (30:09)

All the scarcity that yes.

Yeah, that puts me off sometimes because sometimes I genuinely know that I want what someone can offer, but I'm having a lot going on in a particular week. And I think there are two types, though. There are the ones who will say, Okay, get back when you're ready. And there are the ones who say there are only a couple of spots left. And I've heard that recently. So maybe it's genuine and true, but

I think the right thing happens at the time when it should be happening.

Lisa Jimenez (30:42)

Yeah, yeah. And I mean, yes, you're right. Sometimes they're like, I can, I'm a coach, and I can only handle 10 people, and there's only two spots left. Yeah, that's a little bit different than you better hurry up, you know.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (30:52)

this case.

Lisa Jimenez (30:55)

The time's running out, the price is gonna go up and know, this whole thing that this urgency in this, ⁓ this lack of availability for people, like that's no way to, because that just doesn't that make your, like your cortisol just start running and like your nervous system like zing?

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (31:16)

Yes. And

You know what? The last time I saw someone doing that in a community, really urging people get in now before the amount changes. Hurry rush. That person then ended up very politically catty moments later. And I think it was the same energy. It was let's ramp everything up instead of let's make sure that everybody is okay.

Lisa Jimenez (31:39)

Thank you.

Yeah, yeah. So we're just make sure everybody's okay. Come on in. Join the party. We're here. What do you want to do? Where do you want to go? How can we help you?

That's really what we want to do. want to empower you. want you to be able to support yourself and stay at home with your kids if you want to, and build a business where you're only working a few days a month and still making enough money to support yourself and be able to help other women. So it's like we're paying it forward. We're paying it forward to them, and then they get on their feet and they're paying it forward to all the women in their community. And we're building community leaders, which I think is what we really need, right? And then become sort of this web of women that were all connected and that were all sort of on the same...

We're all talking about the same things. We're all practising the same things. And we're all just in this community, which is really beautiful. And it's not to say that we aren't political. Are you kidding me? If you read my threads, I'm ⁓ out there bashing the politicians every day because they're just such idiots. But ⁓ you know.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (33:02)

You know what I think the difference is there? Life is political, and we live in a political world, but it's whether we want to play that game and expect to win it. I think that's a bit different than just observing the political influences that are surrounding us. Do you think so?

Lisa Jimenez (33:18)

Right, right, right. And my observation of the political influences you see on any of my social media is really just like, why are you doing this to hurt people? Why are you doing this to starve people? Why are you doing this to kill people? None of this needs to happen. ⁓ None of this ridiculous needs to happen. You should be helping people.

The world is bad enough.

Do some good, you know, and the same with the billionaires, do some good. You have more money than you'll ever need for a hundred generations. You can do good. You could turn things around in this world. You could do good. And that's one thing that we do with most of our profits is they go back into grants. So that women who can't afford even the small amounts that we charge for some of our courses to get them to certain places, we're like, okay, grants, here you go. We're going to take you in.

enough to get you on your feet and get you going. Because we wish we had that. We wish we had that when we were coming up and needed help. And there was nothing like that. So we're like, how can we create something like that that we could have used that other women could need? And that's what we're always thinking. Like, OK, you don't want to stand up in front of a microphone, but you really want to tell your story, and you love writing. OK, let's start publishing books.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (34:28)

Yes!

Lisa Jimenez (34:50)

Let's start publishing a magazine so people can show off their art, or show you know write an article or you know have their face on the cover, if that's what they want, if they're you know have a big launch coming out, or something like Just things that we could do to uplift as much as possible

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (35:08)

Yes.

And the grants, I love that concept. And I applaud what you were doing so much because it's still valuing what you are providing. And the balance, so to speak, that I found is I wanted to value what I was doing. But if someone is in need, I, I disagree with the thought leaders on YouTube who'll say never discount because if someone is really in need and has the potential and is willing to grow, there are ways to, whether it's a grant or something like that, there's a way to sort of help out someone to get access to something that's valued that much. But so you are, you're helping to give access to great value without devaluing what you are doing. And that's, that is so crucial because I think that using, using business to help

Lisa Jimenez (35:52)

Yes.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (36:08)

people. actually makes sense. And the other thing that I love about your grants is one thing I want more alternatives to, which is wherever I look at the moment, it seems like the main solutions when people are in desperate need, it's to turn to the government, and it's not just welfare payments. There are so many ways that people say, Just go to the government for health insurance, for all of these things. And then there are so many strings attached to that, and it's really putting the power in the hands of a government that could be doing anything, and whether it's right or wrong, it's all concentrated into one space, but why can't business help people and provide another source of help?

Lisa Jimenez (36:53)

It is.

Right, right, and they should. You know, I mean, it's been proven over and over and over again, if you give people even a basic living income, right, that they do better, that they're healthier, that they're happier. There have been a couple of even cities in the United States that started paying their homeless population just to get them kind of on their feet. And...

it works. It works because people don't feel so desperate and so down, and they're like, okay, now I can afford to stay the night somewhere. Now I can, I can get, take a shower and go on an interview. Now I can, you know, buy it, buy new clothes so that I can go on an interview. Now I can eat a little bit healthier, so that, you know, I mean, there's just like, when you have nothing, and I know what it's like to be in this situation where your whole life has just been swept away by a flash flood, almost. like you're just standing there watching everything disappear.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (38:12)

Are you comfortable to share anything at all about where you were and what you recovered from?

Lisa Jimenez (38:19)

Yes, absolutely. So I was married for 17 years, and it was it wasn't bad from the beginning, and it never is, you know, it's one of those things that there was alcohol and addiction involved in, and it was a very slow progression to where it ended. So and that's what typically happens in domestic violence situations. Like you don't know that the person's gonna hurt you, and you get married to them anyway. Like that's just not really what happens, right? Typically, everybody loves them; they're charming, they're wonderful, and things get worse as they go along. But there are a lot of things involved in this for hours. There's a lot of things involved, and you know, sometimes if you end up making more money than them, or you know, there again there's a lot of things involved, and it

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (39:28)

them to that's okay. And we don't need to be ultra detailed. And that's okay. But you pinpointed something there. So in your in your example, making more money, have you seen that sometimes women become a target in relationships when they are growing more successful in some way than their partner?

Lisa Jimenez (39:50)

So I liken it to this. So usually when you meet someone, you're on the same level, right? You're very, you're sort of vibrating at the same level. Like, yay, I found you. I found you, yay, okay. Love, kiss, kiss, here we go. And then as time goes on, usually there is a gap.

And that's when the fighting starts, right? That gap is where, like, we can't agree on anything, and we don't know how we're going to, and sometimes, you know, it might be a day or two, and then the gap closes, and that's fine, and it kind of does this, right? But when that gap gets too big, like I'm successful, I'm enjoying my work, I'm, you know, have something, and I haven't grown at all.

Here's an example. I spoke to somebody one day, and she said, I think I'm going to break up with my boyfriend. Two years have gone by. He still doesn't know where the vacuum cleaner is in the house. All he does is play video games, blah, blah, blah. Okay. Where were you when you met him in your life? Like, where were you? She's like, I didn't really have a job, and I was sad and I was depressed, and I just wanted to hang around my friends, and I said, and where was he? And he's like, she's like, well, he has a job, he doesn't really like it, but he's depressed, and he plays video games. And I'm like, so you guys were pretty equal when you met, right? And now where are you? She's like, I love my job. I have this great career and everything. I'm like, where is he? He's still depressed, and he's still playing video games, and he's still, so I'm like, that gap is really big. Right. And so yes, good idea. Break up because that gap is not going to close. Right.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (41:35)

inequality

That's explaining so much. So does that mean that if one partner is considering, sorry, if one partner is continuing to connect with the world and create and the other partner isn't doing that, then the inequality will just push them away.

Lisa Jimenez (41:58)

Further apart. Yeah, further apart, and then because the one partner feels so powerless to change that situation, they become angry because anger feels better than being powerless, right? And then that anger could easily turn into you know, maybe punching the wall or throwing something, you know, and then

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (42:15)

Wow.

Lisa Jimenez (42:26)

Of course, you're going to react, and if you've never seen anything like that, you're going to react, but typically things happen, smaller things happen, you know, it could be ignoring you or withdrawing attention or calling you names or something before the violence escalates. But the farther and farther that gap grows, the more powerless that person below is going to feel. Go ahead.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (42:59)

In your experience of hearing so many stories, what do you say is the next step and series of steps generally for anyone to break free?

Lisa Jimenez (43:13)

planning ⁓ because you know

I think it's something like 85 % of women are killed by an intimate partner when they try to leave. So it's very important that you plan and that if anything has happened or you are fearful of this person, that you tell someone, that you talk to someone, that you have a plan, that you've saved your own money somehow, somewhere. Because sometimes, with our old ideas and traditions that we grew up with. know, grow up, get married, have kids, combine your bank accounts, all of that stuff. I'm going to tell anyone who's listening right now, if you haven't been married yet, do not do that. Do not combine your bank accounts. Keep your own bank account. Split the bills. Do whatever you need to do, but do not combine your money because you will not be able to touch it if you need to leave. Especially if he thinks you're going to leave, he's going to take it and put it somewhere like he's to control it. ⁓ And if he's getting more mad at you about things and feeling more powerless, then what does he have power over? He has power over the money. He has power over your car. He has power over things. So I would say plan. Plan, put money away, plan where you're going to go. Make sure you someone who you can sleep on their couch or whatever it is if you need to get out because you can't just leave and go and rent an apartment.

Like it doesn't happen that way. And especially if you have kids or animals. know, make sure you find a place where you can take them. Believe it or not, a lot of women ⁓ don't leave because they can't take their animals to shelters.

You know, family shelters. You can take your kids, but you can't take your dog. And so they don't want to leave the dog. You know, they don't want to leave their animals at the house. So we actually have a partner that runs animal shelters that will keep your animal until you're safe, and then you can come and get your...

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (45:17)

That's actually an opportunity for those who are into animal welfare is set up more animal refuge spaces or situations like that. It will happen even here in Australia, especially even with the rental market, a lot of rentals won't accept pets. So find anyone or any space where the pet can go at least temporarily.

Lisa Jimenez (45:24)

Right?

Yeah.

Right, right. So, back to my story. So that gap got really big, and I decided I was gonna leave because the violent talk and the actions were sort of escalating, and it was like, and we had bought a house like six months before, just thinking that'll make things better and like, let's just buy the house and everything.

There was a big incident, and it was really scary, and I said I wanted to divorce. And two weeks later, he decided that he was not going to divorce me, that he was going to kill me. And so it ended up, I was thrown through a window, I was stabbed, my fingers were broken, my earrings were ripped down my ears. He tried to hurt me for hours, like me trying to run around the house to get out of the house, and I finally escaped and he was arrested, you know, but you know, another 10 minutes, I would have been a goner because

He had the knife in his hand, and he'd already gotten me once. So it was just a matter of time, you know, because I was getting tired. ⁓ it's a very detailed story, but the police did come because he did break my phone, though, which is a felony in itself. can't ⁓ keep people from being able to call for help.

But when all of it was said and done, he still got 50 % custody of the kids. he was not the only jail time; he did the jail time when he got arrested that night. And because he had been taking pills and booze and was so out of it, when he started detoxing, they put him kind of on his own because he was like, I'm gonna kill myself, know, and because he was detoxing and kind of going crazy.

And so he spent, I think, four or five days in jail, but no other jail time. And that was not because of what he did to me. It was because of his mistake. Right, right.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (47:57)

Rehab. It was essentially, unofficially rehab.

Lisa Jimenez (48:03)

And then we went to Family Court and he got 50 % custody, 50-50, because here in the States, you can't bring up the criminal charges in Family Court if the criminal charges haven't taken place yet, like the courts haven't taken place yet. So I wasn't allowed to talk about it. It just had to be. Why are you getting divorced? And we had to say, irreconcilable differences. Thank you.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (48:30)

Irreconcilable differences. We hear that line in the news whenever a celebrity has a divorce. So is that the default line almost all the time?

Lisa Jimenez (48:38)

Right, right. And then when all was said and done, like two years later, I think, when we finally had the judgment, he got a $258 fine, an anger management class, and six weeks of picking up trash on the highway on a Saturday. And that was it.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (49:06)

How do you navigate sharing parenthood with someone you have that history with?

Lisa Jimenez (49:15)

It's not easy, especially since one of the kids was at home when all of this was happening and was, you know, of course, scared to death and didn't want to be anywhere near him. But, you know, he would be on his best behaviour and try and, you know.

I think it scared him being in jail for those five days, but he never honoured the restraining order. He still came over to the house whenever he felt like it. Yeah, it's not easy, especially since, you know.

You know what he's capable of, and how do you lead your kids with them, right? But if you don't, then you are the one who gets in trouble. Like if I were to say, you can't have the kids, he could take me to court, and then the kids could be taken away from me totally.

Because I would refuse it. So you kind of have to be like, okay, if any, if he gets mad, if anything happens, call me, I'll come and get you, and I'll bring the police. You know, it's just, but the trauma that the kids have to go through is so unacceptable, you know, that the courts don't even consider that.

They're just like making sure that that perpetrator has his rights and has more rights than the victims. So it's a broken system.

So how do we then, as women, how do we change those systems? We have more women go into law. We have more women go into advocacy. We have more women become legislators. We have more women infiltrate those systems so that we can change them.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (51:07)

Yes. And we need more women to soften and have a compassionate approach to leadership because there are some women working in the legal system or anywhere else where they feel the pressure to be tough, the guys around them, but we need an alternative approach to the toughness as well.

Lisa Jimenez (51:31)

Right, right. And so that's funny because I just had this conversation today with somebody about the fact that, you know, violence and the cruelty seems to be the norm now, right? Like, how cruel can we be, and how violent can we be? And violence doesn't always mean hitting, you know, violence is starving people, you know, that's violence. How can we create a world in which we have community and we have rehabilitation, but not only that, but we have that soft approach with our children when we're raising them, right? And we're not teaching our boys to grow up and be cool and entitled and take what they want because they think it's theirs. You know what I mean? Like, there are things that we need to change from that, from the beginning, but also that

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (52:28)

Yes.

Lisa Jimenez (52:32)

that you can be soft and you can be a leader and you can be powerful in that by caring about people and by creating these systems and communities where we do care about our people. We care that you feel powerless. We care that you feel like things are out of your control. But.

Let's change that. Let's figure out how to make you feel empowered and how to make you feel like you can get what you want. But it doesn't have to be this because you're not entitled to this. Right.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (53:08)

Yes, yes. I feel very curious about also what anyone should do if they're in a situation where the other parent is simply very controlling and trying to control every aspect of things.

Lisa Jimenez (53:26)

Yeah, usually by that time, by the time you realise that that person's trying to control everything, you know, it's, it's, that's the biggest red flag because you've pretty much given up your power, right? If that person's trying to control everything and you're, you're, you don't have control over anything, and I, I remember the exact moment that I gave up my power in my relationship. And it, it hit me

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (53:27)

Thanks.

Lisa Jimenez (53:56)

like a ton of bricks, you know, months after this event happened. And thinking like, how did we get here? You know, how did we get this to be this bad? And then just sort of going over our relationship, because you know, you think you're going to be married forever, and that's what you've been sold. And so I think that's it. And, and I remember thinking, my gosh, that that was the moment. And it was like a light bulb going on. That was the exact moment that I gave my power away, From that point forward, I was, you know, walking on eggshells and I was quiet and I was, I shrank myself to fit, and I made sure that he was always happy, but he was never happy because that's a control thing, right?

If they can make you as miserable as possible, then he's controlling that situation. And so, for instance, he loves steak and mashed potatoes, and you make steak and mashed potatoes for him, and you put it on the table, and it's perfect. It's absolutely perfect. And he's like, This steak is terrible. These mashed potatoes are terrible. I hate it. Throws the food across the thing. And you're like, okay, now I've got

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (55:12)

throws the

food.

Lisa Jimenez (55:14)

Yeah. Now I've got to do something else. Like, now I don't know what to do. Now I don't know how else to be perfect because I've tried so hard to be so perfect and make him happy, but he's never happy. And he's doing that because it scares the shit out of you. And when you're scared, you're controllable.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (55:44)

Right, right. I think also sometimes someone can control the parenthood so entirely because that's all they can hold on to.

Lisa Jimenez (55:56)

Right, yeah. Yeah, and it's not always the man in the relationship. know, sometimes it's the woman as well, yeah, controlling that, that parenthood and what you do and how you do it, and your opinions don't matter. Your way of raising the kids doesn't matter. It's my way or no way, you know.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (56:17)

Yeah. Yeah. But I wanted to really circle back to a positive, and I was normally capping these, gosh, I was normally capping these conversations at about an hour. And I think we'll have a little bit more than that. 10 minutes more than that. That's okay. Because we had so much to talk about, but I wanted to know getting back to the events and community connection business. What

Lisa Jimenez (56:22)

Yes.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (56:43)

What three things do you think that all women should be doing to build their independence? Because maybe they had a serious situation, but maybe they are just going steady in a normal life, but wanting to create more and have an adventure or get creative. So what are three things that everybody can do?

Lisa Jimenez (57:06)

Three things that you can do. I would say stop spending so much on things that don't matter.

Starbucks and that is like: make your coffee at home, you know you'll save $100 a week. I'm not kidding, like those kinds of things. You're just feeding the machines. So stop spending is my first thing because you would be so happy to see your bank account at the end of the month. When you stop spending on frivolous things creating, you said creating. One of the things you can do to feel that freedom that you really want to feel so badly in your life is to create. So, whether it's writing songs, poetry, a book, painting, crafting, or learning a craft, there is a giant free well of information called YouTube.

And I guarantee no matter what, if you want to learn how to make brooms, you can find it on YouTube. If you want to know how to, you know, plant a garden, if you want to know like anything you want to know, it's there, find it. Somebody has made it and put it out there for free. There are so many great creators out there. So you can feel free and wealthy and healthy because when you're creating, you're using your right brain, and your right brain is where the world opens up. Your left brain is your logical brain, and the left brain is what tells you you should be doing, you could be doing, you know, keeping you that it's like that little devil on your shoulder, right but that that right brain is that opens you up to the cosmos. So creation is sometimes the same as meditating because you are just in the zone, you know, so it's good for your health as well.

And the third thing is, I think, go find your tribe, your friends, find your chosen family and spend time with them. And do not put energy into people that will not give you the same amount of energy back. It's about reciprocity. That's the only way that community works is that reciprocity. So if you're the one always calling the friend, if you're the one always suggesting that you go out, if you're the one always coming to the rescue, and they don't pick up their phone when you call, maybe that person shouldn't be in your circle. You know what I mean? Like, because you need support too. If you're giving support…

So find those people, and there are lots of ways to do it. are even, I know in Australia there are places you can like go and find a hiking club or a painting club or something like that. Go to a paint and sit class or something, you're going to meet people, and just get out and do it because you need that human connection. We need it for our nervous systems, for our overall health. There's nothing like that, and even tears if there's someone who has pulled space for you, you know? And I don't know how many people actually have that in their lives anymore, but it's so important.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (1:00:57)

It is, you are inspiring me to get back to doing any sort of community events because we always need more spaces to have conversations, either as the main focus or alongside any sort of creativity. Create and connect; that is crucial.

Lisa Jimenez (1:01:14)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, and I remember when I was in college and my best friend went to a different school that was, you know, three and a half hours away from me or whatever. But I would drive to her school sometimes on the weekends and hang out with her and her friends. And we'd sit in a coffee shop, and we'd just sit there all day and talk and just get to know each other. It was just something about and those people that I met then I'm still I still have relationships with, you know. But I'm lucky in that,

Even the communities that I've built in the past few years, the women have been amazing. I mean, there have been a few that have dropped out and said, Yeah, I don't want to work with organisations like that. fine. Find your space. That's what it's all about. If this isn't the space for you, then that's OK. I'm sure there's plenty of spaces. There's plenty of people.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (1:02:16)

There are, there are plenty of people. Lisa, thank you so much for the wisdom and the insights. You're helping everybody to grow.

Lisa Jimenez (1:02:22)

You're welcome.

Podcast Episode: Gail Miller Discussing the Lived Experience of Menopause, Depression, and the HumanCharger

The Motivate Collective — Show Notes Episode Title Light, Sleep & Sanity: Gail Miller on the HumanCharger, Jet Lag, and Women's Health Episode Description (Short)

Gail Miller, interior designer and wife of Olympic ski coach Gary Miller, shares how the HumanCharger device helped reset her sleep, lift her mood, and crush jet lag—plus why light matters for shift workers, travellers, parents, nurses, and high-performance athletes. We also talk candidly about women's health, antidepressants, and practical, non-woo ways to feel human again. *This is not medical advice—see disclaimer below.

Episode Summary (Long)

In this conversation, Melanie explores the power of bright light with guest Gail Miller,, who helped introduce the HumanCharger in the U.S. Gail describes discovering the device during a demanding winter working long hours under fluorescent lights in a ski shop in Austria, while navigating menopause and antidepressants. Within a week of daily 12-minute sessions, she noticed deeper sleep, earlier natural wake-ups, steadier energy, and brighter mood.

Gail explains how the device's light is delivered through the ear and is intended to support circadian rhythm—particularly useful for people spending long days indoors, shift workers, frequent travellers, and those experiencing seasonal lows. She shares stories from **Olympic-level ski racers**, flight attendants, and everyday users, and contrasts the experience with light boxes and stimulants like energy drinks. We also open a bigger conversation about women's health, the pill-first culture, and advocating for yourself in rushed healthcare systems.

Guest

Gail Miller — Designer, traveller, ski-industry veteran, and advocate for practical wellness tools. Alongside her husband, Olympic ski coach Gary Miller, she has supported the U.S. introduction of the HumanCharger and shared it within performance and travel communities.

Chapters / Timestamps

* **00:00** Welcome & what is the HumanCharger?

* **00:16** How it works: bright, UV-free light via the ear; circadian support

* **01:00** Gail's first-week results: early wake-ups, deeper sleep, steadier mood

* **03:20** Using it twice a day; energy without ruining sleep

* **05:10** Zero jet lag story: Portugal → New York → Seattle

* **06:47** Women's health: hysterectomy, hormones, antidepressants, self-advocacy

* **10:45** "Pop a pill" culture vs. light and lifestyle levers

* **14:58** Indoor work, lousy lighting, and why practical solutions matter

* **16:30** Flight attendant & everyday user stories

* **17:55** Discreet use while traveling; feeling calmer and focused

* **18:57** Ageing, mood swings, and the power of quality sleep

* **24:11** SAD, seasons, floods, and light deprivation

* **28:24** Light boxes vs. HumanCharger: time and usability

* **31:26** Why usability wins: 12 minutes vs. 45 minutes staring at a lamp

* **43:11** Real life: trains, hotels, work-from-home, and getting outside

* **46:04** Caveman logic: light cues hormones, melatonin, cortisol

* **54:13** Athletes: Olympians and world-class ski racers using the device

* **1:01:11** Long drives & "no crash" alertness vs. caffeine/energy drinks

* **1:09:04** Longevity: devices still going strong after ~6 years

* **1:11:44** Where to get it; plans for Australia; try-and-return mindset

* **1:14:19** Closing: spreading the word and helping people feel human again

## Key Takeaways

* **Light is a lever.** Bright, UV-free light can support circadian rhythm, sleep depth, daytime energy, and mood—especially when indoor time is high.

* **Usability matters.** A 12-minute, hands-free session is easier to stick with than 45 minutes in front of a light box.

* **Travel & shift work friendly.** Many users report reduced jet lag and steadier focus without caffeine jitters.

* **Women's health needs voice & options.** Pills aren't the only lever; self-advocacy and practical tools matter.

* **Not a cure—an aid.** Results vary; consistency increases benefits. Pair with common sense: sunlight, movement, real food, and good sleep hygiene.

## Memorable Quotes (verbatim)

* "**It is bright light that goes through your ears… It helps your circadian rhythm. It improves your moods.**" — *Gail Miller*

* "**For the first time since I was a kid, I was waking up at like six in the morning without an alarm, wide awake.**" — *Gail Miller*

* "**I used it traveling… I didn't have any jet lag.**" — *Gail Miller*

* "**It's not a cure, but it's an aid.**" — *Gail Miller*

* "**You gotta have a little bit of bright light in your life.**" — *Gail Miller*

* "**Light is so essential because light is just a part of the world.**" — *Melanie Suzanne Wilson*

## Who This Episode Is For

* **Frequent travelers** who hate jet lag

* **Shift workers / healthcare staff / retail & hospitality** spending long days indoors

* **Athletes, students, presenters** seeking focus without stimulant crashes

* **Women navigating hormones, sleep, and mood** who want practical, adjunctive tools

* **Anyone in cloudy winters or flood seasons** with limited outdoor light

## Resources & Mentions

* **HumanCharger**: humancharger.com • humancharger.us

* Topics mentioned: **SAD (seasonal affective disorder)**, circadian rhythm, melatonin, cortisol, **light boxes**, caffeine and energy drinks

## Call to Action

* Try building a **morning light habit**: 12 minutes upon waking; optionally a second session at midday on low-light days.

* If you're curious about the **HumanCharger**, check availability at **humancharger.com** or **.us**. Australians can **DM Melanie** for local updates or help connecting with Gail & Gary.

* Share this episode with a **nurse, flight attendant, or frequent traveller** who could use more steady energy and better sleep.

## Guest Links

* (Provided via host) Contact via **HumanCharger** and through Melanie for Australia interest.

## Host Links

* **The Motivate Collective**: motivatecollective.com

* Listen on **Spotify** and **Apple Podcasts** (search "The Motivate Collective")

## Production Credits

* Host: **Melanie Suzanne Wilson**

* Guest: **Gail Miller**

* Editing & Production: The Motivate Collective

## Disclaimer

This episode reflects personal experiences and opinions. **It is not medical advice.** Consult a qualified healthcare professional before making changes to medications or treatment. Results vary; devices and approaches discussed are **adjuncts**, not cures.

## SEO Tags

light therapy, HumanCharger, circadian rhythm, sleep quality, jet lag, SAD, women's health, menopause, shift work fatigue, nursing wellness, athlete focus, travel recovery, mood support, Newcastle, Australia, Motivate Collective Podcast

Transcript

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (00:00)

Welcome, Gail Miller, to the podcast. Gail, you have been involved with your husband, Gary Miller in setting up the introduction in the U S of the human charger. So, for those who don't know, let's start with what it even is.

Gail Miller (00:16)

Yes, that's.

Well, it's very simple. It's this little device, and you can see it's kind of bright. It is a bright light that goes through your ears like this. You press the button, and it's a transcranial bright light, UV-free. So, it's totally safe. And it goes straight to the back of your hypothalamus, and you're in the back of your head. And it really helps your circadian rhythm.

It improves your moods. It's unbelievable. And I certainly didn't think that that was what it was going to be when I started using it. thought, okay, well, we'll try it because usually for me, especially coming from the US, it's take a pill, put a patch on, you know, and all my friends, you have to try my vitamin or my thing or the doctors are throwing medicine at you.

And then you have to play around with the dosages, and you have to figure out where you're to be, and then something changes. So, when I discovered it after trying it and it really worked after about a week, I was ecstatic and basically, I didn't believe it was going to work. I didn't think it was going to do anything. It changed. First of all, my sleep pattern. So, for the first time since I was a kid,

I was waking up at like six in the morning without an alarm, wide awake. And I'm like, and not feeling any sort of, know, Oh God, I could roll over and go back to sleep. I was up. That was bizarre. That had been years since I was a kid. It's like being a little kid and you know, you just get up and you're like, okay, it's time to go play in the dirt or in the sandbox or something. You've got to do something.

So that's how I felt when I started using it. And I was putting in, you know, eight to 12-hour days in a basement in a ski resort in Austria. I didn't speak the language, and I was right in the middle of menopause and all those wonderful symptoms. And I was on antidepressants, and I'm like, there's got to be something else. I really didn't think it was going to work. And it was unbelievable. After about a week, it took about a week for me to notice it. So I would use it once in the morning. You press the button. It goes on for 12 minutes. And people were laughing at me. know, Austrians are tough. They're tough people, man. They power through anything. So, you know, it's like, no, that's not going to work. This is crazy. And they're looking at me, and they're like, Where are you getting this energy? And they're, you know, they're drinking their cappuccino and their drinks. And I'm like, look.

I feel great. So, and I like my coffee. I especially like European coffee, because it tastes better than American groundwater. know, so I just started to notice, first of all, my energy changed. And then about midday, when I would start to feel the slump, I would put it in again, and I'd press the button again. And that just sort of gave me another sort of push to get through till like seven or eight at night, depending on when I was done with work. Then I'd get back on the bus, and I'd go in, and it didn't affect my sleep. My, what happened with my sleep is instead of, you know, up and down, up and down with menopause or pre menopause, I just started to sleep really deeply through the night. And then I'd be up in the morning and going again. And what my moods were better. I was happier people were looking at me like, well, this is really strange. My husband would meet me on the weekends. We'd go ski for a day or two. Then, and he's like, Wow, what's going on? So I weaned myself with the doctor's permission off of the antidepressants. And I just started using it often, you know, every single day, sometimes two, sometimes three ⁓ times a day. didn't affect my sleep at night, but ⁓

My mood was better. My sleep was better. It was, it was really strange, and I really didn't think it was going to do the trick. And then I, I spent the whole winter there. I was trying to, you know, tell people about it. The friends that we had used it for travelling back to the U.S. were in their seventies. They had no jet lag. Yeah, they were doctors, and I'm like, you didn't have any jet lag. And they're like, no.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (05:10)

that to the doctors.

Gail Miller (05:15)

So we started giving it to Olympic athletes and friends of ours, and no negative feedback. And I'm like, nothing? You got nothing. So in the spring, when I was done with my stint at this ski shop, I jumped on a plane and flew from Portugal to Seattle. And

with a, don't know, it was like a three or four hour layover in New York. I arrived there, I had no jet lag. It was the strangest thing I'd ever experienced in my life. I was like, This is crazy. I used it up till nine o'clock at night when I had arrived to get in the car, now, right at the end when you're just starting going, when you're like, okay, I'm here now, and I'm just now, it's late at night, I'm.

Kind of getting tired. I used it one more time. I crawled into bed, I read three or four sentences, and then I was out cold. Then, at six or seven in the morning, I was wide awake and ready to go. I just hit the ground running, and I was like This is unbelievable because I've always been affected. So, every time I used it I travelled after that. I didn't have any issues. It was so strange so I just like how it makes me feel. like to finally not have to take a million pills, you know.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (06:47)

Talk about all of that. And I can see you as such an advocate, and you really believe in this thing. You are in awe essentially of the impact that it has had. But I wanted to investigate some of the issues that didn't work and what was happening. You mentioned that you had a hysterectomy. That's something in itself, but a lot of women have all sorts of hormonal issues, and the media is giving a lot more attention now to how women's health isn't researched as much as men's health and women have been kept out of studies. I'm seeing a nod. So even for a health issue that could affect everybody, women have been excluded from studies. There's a lot that isn't known, and it's a cultural expectation not to talk about women's health a little bit.

Gail Miller (07:29)

yeah.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (07:45)

But I'm really curious about that as much as you want to share it. You mentioned the depression. I'm curious, was the depression tied in with hormones, or is that a separate thing?

Gail Miller (07:57)

Well, I was diagnosed much later in life with panic attacks. They said, You probably have ADHD, but they're all connected. Everything's connected. I had a male doctor, a male psychiatrist. Well, just don't worry about it here. We'll just take a pill. When in doubt, have another medication. It might ruin your sex drive. It might, you know.

They'll give you a million, well, try this for a while, and if that doesn't work, we'll try this. So your body is going, you're on a roller coaster. It's crazy. And my mother died when I was 17, so nobody to talk to about it. I had a doctor in Park City who was a female doctor before my hysterectomy, who told me that I would be fine, and I would lose weight, and everything would be better if I just ran.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (08:32)

A lot of side effects.

Gail Miller (08:54)

You know, two hours every day after work. You know, go teach skiing, go do your design and then go running, and you'll be better. Yeah, I'm a designer by interior design. Yeah, so I was just like, I guess, you know, this is just what happens as you get older and no one to talk to about it. And they weren't certainly sharing information. So when I finally had the hysterectomy… They left my ovaries in, which was supposed to help my hormones, but they never talked about hormone replacement, nothing. This was in the US. This was so frightening to me. And we moved to Portugal first, and I was a wreck. I was a basket case. And I went to a mall in Portugal where there was a doctor's office, and the girls at the front desk knew more than the doctors that I'd spoken to.

And they were like, you need to have an endocrinologist. They need to test your da da da da da. They test your blood. And I went through all that, and he goes, Well, you're not on any hormones or antidepressants. know, so he gave me all the medicine, but it's still medicine. And that was, know, and then you have to monitor yourself and do all that. There was no other help, you know, go out, get your exercise and do your thing. But that's not the only answer.

And I really thought that was it. And I have friends that sell, you know, every kind of vitamin, you take this, this will make you feel better. And this, you know, join my club and do this. And I'm like, okay, well, that's a lot of money. And then I have to call my friends, and then they have to have me buy this. And then, you know, that gets old. And it,

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (10:45)

It's a lot to, in multiple countries, people were telling you to just pop a pill.

Gail Miller (10:50)

Yeah, pop a bill, try this, do this. But it was always some sort of pill or patch. So it really wasn't anything that really helped. And then when I discovered this device, the difference right away, I could tell with my sleeping and then my moods. I was like, I don't want to take so much medicine. Then I went back to the doctor and I went.

You know, I'm feeling a lot better, and they don't want you to get off the medicine. So it was, I was pretty careful about how I weaned myself off, but I mean, yeah, no antidepressant.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (11:29)

I don't want you to go off it.

Gail Miller (11:36)

Now, I, I, what?

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (11:36)

Why don't

they want you to go off it?

Gail Miller (11:41)

because they don't want you to be sad or get moody or cause any problems. Just be quiet and go shh. There's a lot of shh. You're supposed to be happy and lovely, and really, it's a strange thing. And I'm hearing it now that if they're talking about it, women are talking about it more and more, and I'm really happy about it, but that, you know, because the young people are saying, you know, in their forties, they're going, well, this is happening and this is happening. I'm like, well, just wait till you, your skin changes, and you're everything changes. And nobody was there to tell me about it. And, and, and so the more women talk about it, I think the better it is, but you get all the symptoms with it, and everybody's affected differently. So, for me, the human charger and the light, I'm like, ' Okay, so this isn't going to hurt me.' My brain's not gonna light up and go on fire. And I was like, okay, it's not a tanning bed in my brain. That's pretty good. So I was really, really excited that I had found something that's sort of, it's not a cure, but it's an aid. And I'm like, okay, so it's not.

I don't have to spend three to five hundred dollars a month on a vitamin. This is just something that I can do. And if and if you can get outside, it's the best way to do it. I mean, I don't know what it's like down down where you are. But if you can go outside, that's the best thing you can possibly do. Get outside and get fresh air. But you can't always do that. And a lot of people are working inside. They're looking at their screens. And then this this was like, I'm.

I'm here, I'm present, I'm awake, I'm focused. For me, that was a really, really big deal and I just felt better. So I actually have a friend that we gave it to, she's a flight attendant. We said, well, try this just because I wanna know if it works for you when you're flying. For me, was, how many people could I have that I know try this because they're gonna tell me whether I'm crazy and whether it's psychosomatic or whether or not.

This actually might. Yeah, yeah. Well, what's the deal? And I'm not a scientist. I'm just a woman. So this.

Well, it's more than that, though. You say you're just a woman, but let's look into it for a second, the professional side of things, because I personally believe that when you have family working in a particular field, it does overflow into your field of knowledge. You can absorb their knowledge. And so it's very relevant to say that you were

Working in a ski shop because Gary, your husband, is a great ski coach, and however you were in a basement for so many hours in the day, I didn't realise it was that many hours, which is 10 hours in the day.

Gail Miller (14:58)

yeah, end-of-fluorescent lights. So I can't even imagine people, you know, I can't imagine people that go to work into an office, they look at it, they sit in a cubicle, have lousy light, you know, they get a small tiny break and they're staring at their computer screens or whatever, or they're on their phones. That's hard. And you know, in the old days, people take their cigarette breaks. They did that in Lex.

A lot of the kids were out smoking, which blew my mind, but that was something. And the first thing they would do is sit out and get whatever sun they could get. But when the days were dark and cloudy or snowing, can't get the light. So for me, this was really important and it was really great. And I could definitely, definitely tell the difference. This other woman, this flight attendant, she is completely off of all of her medicine and her antidepressants.

It doesn't help her when she flies because her turnaround time is really fast. So she'll fly long distances and then she'll come back and she. That so it doesn't help her that way. She's just programmed. She's done it for so long. But she uses it every day religiously. She's like I it's the best. It just keeps her happy and sort of

It's kind of like this, you're kind of like going along and everything's sort of easy, which,

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (16:30)

What was her difference before this? Is she having struggles with moods? Was there something else?

Gail Miller (16:39)

It's that same, you know, I think we're probably we were probably similar in age. You know, the girls are in college. She was on antidepressants, you know, her body's changing. She's going through all this, and she didn't want to be on all the pills. So I think a lot of people are looking for something else, something that isn't a pill popper. When I first moved from the US to Europe, I was on like.

600 milligrams to 800 milligrams of ibuprofen a day, know, headaches and body aches and whatever. Not anymore. And I don't know. I don't, I can't contribute that to the food, but I know that the bad food and all of that is not good for you. So this gives me energy, makes me feel better, makes me want to get up and go out and move.

And that was huge. like, okay, I can get up in the morning, and I can go for a hike, or I can go work out, and I have the energy to do it. Which is wild.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (17:42)

And, she said that you two travel to other countries quite frequently to go skiing in different places. So that's a lot of good shift. Let's look at that for a second.

Gail Miller (17:55)

It's just like, it's like just depending on what the weather is, where you go and how you do it. I like the convenience because I can take it and wear it. It's really funny because people don't know about it. They think you're listening to music because you just got these little ear things in, and they think you're rocking out, and then the light will go off. But I have, I have spoken to many people. grew up in the ski lodge business. So I blah, blah, blah, blah. And I talked to you about, you know, what it is and why it is. And it's been life-changing for me. And I use it all the time. And I can't imagine life without it. It wakes me up. It corrects my sleep. It helps my cortisol, my estrogen. It just mellows me out. I'm not sort of a crazy middle-aged monster anymore, I guess.

I don't feel like I am.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (18:57)

attempted to ask the rude question of age because, as always taught, don't ask about age, but what sort of age are we talking about where these things are happening?

Gail Miller (19:07)

Well, let's see, I'm 57 now. So I don't know. It's been about 10 years or more. Yeah, it's unbelievable. Some people started at their 40s. Some people it's later. You know, I do know that some people get it early, early onset symptoms. You know, that's brutal.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (19:15)

Really?

Gail Miller (19:34)

You're trying to raise your children, and you're going through these things, and you can't control your moods. You can't control, and then you're popping pills, and you've got to be with it, and you've got to work, and you've got to be professional. That's a lot. There's a lot to ask of a woman. And, you know, the guy comes home and he works all day, and yeah, he works hard, let's say. And then he takes his stuff off and goes to bed, but the mom is, you know, putting the kids to bed. This isn't everybody, but putting the kids to bed, making sure the backpacks are ready, is the lunch ready? So we're working all the time. And so anything that will help sort of get you through that. Then, to turn your brain off at the end of the day is really hard. And it was nice to just have the energy during the day and then lay down, read a few sentences and fall asleep. It was amazing and really sleep. Because if you don't have that sleep and your circadian rhythm is off, you know, you just become worse and worse. It's not good.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (20:41)

So the sleep is really crucial to steady all of these other issues.

Gail Miller (20:46)

I think it's just about everything. But the difference, I think, was it's not depressive sleep, it's quality sleep that I ended up getting, where I would go to sleep and I'm out, but then I'm just up, versus sleeping and then I'm up and then I'm sleeping. And then it just prolongs, you wait till 10 minutes till you have to get out the door, and you're like, I gotta get dressed, I gotta go because you're so depressed. It sort of changed everything for me. And it took that away from everyone, I have friends now trying it that are my age and some that are younger, and they're like, wow, this is really nice. But like I said, it's not like you pop a pill and it's magic. It's clearly gonna affect everybody differently, just like light will.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (21:20)

Yes.

Gail Miller (21:46)

But man, it really helps.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (21:49)

And light is so essential because light is just a part of the world. So there's something very simple about the light. And you said that you didn't have a mother to explain some of these things that happen at different ages. And I think that by sharing your experience, you can fill that role in this conversation episode for the people listening, because they might not

have that for whatever reason as well. And in my experience, I just don't talk about those things so much with my mother, but I remember, I don't know if migraines were an issue for you, but for a long time when I was growing up, my grandmother would say to me, She is so sorry, I genetically inherited her tendency to get migraines. It just happens. And I would say that one of my worst phases of having even more than a migraine is back around February and March this year. I was getting a bit addicted to volunteering. It has happened a few times in my life. It's doing a lot, and I just wanted to give and to do and to give and to do. And then my head was going fuzzy. I can't even explain it. My head was fuzzy, and I was totally losing my energy.

But I think that for months, really in the autumn and winter over here, that we're now just out of, I think that my moods were just a total zigzag, and it was just like every so often, I just wasn't me. So I'm really curious if that sort of thing is what some women are experiencing, where you might get so depressed or just so sad. Where are you wondering? What is going on? It doesn't feel coincidental that a lot of this was going on. Well, some of my worst moods were in the winter. And I think what I've learned from both you and Gary is just hearing about the impact of the seasons where there isn't a lot of light, because in Australia, we don't talk about it.

Gail Miller (24:11)

Well, that's

Well, we don't. And SAD is huge. And that's why this thing was originally developed. And a lot of the symptoms are the same. So you feel depressed. You're bummed out. Your moods are crazy. You get headaches. You're tired all the time. So I think they parallel a lot. And I think women are going through this, and they're kind of going through it really quietly. They're trying not to rock the boat. They're trying to keep the peace, but you're going through it, and a lot of people just don't know how much and how important the light really is. I mean, it's great if you can go outside every day and be in the sunshine. That's super great, but you still have a workload. So I think it's absolutely crazy important that women talk about all this stuff, and that's what's going on. My daughter uses it, and she suffers migraines. She uses it on her way to work, and then she gets to work, and she's like I can, I can focus down on her so her headaches aren't gone, but they're better. Maybe it's helping. I don't know. I can't measure it, but I'm like, okay, are you feeling better? Your sleep is better. That's gotta be something. Something is better than nothing. So the more I think we talk about it, and like for you, the more you put on your plate, you need a little, it's kind of like having somebody sort of just go, it's okay, you're gonna be okay, but you have it around your neck, and you can do it very quietly and subtly.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (26:07)

You can, I was wondering about that. I was trying to explain the device to a friend last night because I haven't actually seen one physically in person yet, but you have one there. Yes. You're sending one. So it's on its way. It literally, for those who are listening to audio, we'll have the video up, but for those listening to audio, it literally looks like headphones basically.

Gail Miller (26:18)

We're set, I think we're sending. Are we sending?

Yeah, and what I like about it because I'm not, you know, one of these techie people. So I like it because I can press the button and I don't have to put a timer on for 12 minutes. It'll just turn off. So, if I'm having a really sort of a dark, it's raining this year where I live, there was a lot of rain. So. It was, is kind of dark and depressing. So I was popping that thing, you know, once and then drinking my coffee, and then I'd pop it again in the morning right away. And that sort of was like, and I was sort of up.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (27:10)

Did you?

Did you get a lot of rain in recent months?

Gail Miller (27:19)

Yeah, well, I'm in Bavaria. I'm in Garmisch, like right near Garmisch-Partenkirchen. And it was a really, really rainy summer for everyone. So, you know, on those days, you know, the fall was very rainy as well. So, you know, you get up, you put it in, pop, pop, and then you're just like, okay, I'm ready to go work. I'm good.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (27:43)

That's telling me something because although I'm so far away, where I live in Newcastle, North of Sydney, we had, I think, three floods. It was severe floods. And then a couple of weeks or a few weeks later, there were more floods. And although people got out a little bit,

There was so much rain in that, and it was a really miserable time, and people felt a bit scared. People wonder if they can even travel. So with that going on, I'd said it was really nearly a couple of months of just keeping out of the floods on and off.

Gail Miller (28:24)

That's, and that's scary. So that adds to your stress, and it's no good. The only other thing that I know of that they use for SAD, which to me all ties together, is those big, huge lamps. So we got one for a while last year. We were playing around with it, and you had to sit like this right in front of the bloody, you had to sit right. And I'm thinking to myself, okay, you can't have your glasses.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (28:26)

It is.

My goodness.

Gail Miller (28:50)

And you have to sit right in front of this thing. And I said, there's no way for 45 minutes, I'd have to be shot. don't have the patience for that kind of thing. I mean, I barely have the patience to sit still for five seconds. You know, I'm kind of spastic. So I'm like, you, you got to be kidding. I can't sit there and wait for this. Then you hear about, for me, one of the big things and I wish more people wouldn't do this. I may be going through my life transition.

But you think about young kids today, and they're in front of screens all the time. They're doing sports all the time. They're depressed. They're having all sorts of issues. And I'm like, they need something. And if you had to ask a young person to make them feel better, to sit in front of a light box, no way. Or they'd get like, I have.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (29:45)

No.

Gail Miller (29:48)

friends who've got their kids these little iPad programs, and I'm like, come on, they are not going to stare at a light screen. It sounds like some horror movie, you know, like Poltergeist.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (29:57)

programs.

What do you mean? Sorry, what sort of iPad programs? What's that about?

Gail Miller (30:05)

It's, a, you could put it on your, your iPad and it's a program where it has a light. And I'm like, come on. Someone paid money for

I just can't for their kids. And because the kids are up in where it's dark in the college and stuff. And I'm just thinking to myself, there is no earthly way that those kids are going to sit in front of the screens. Do you ever see the movie Poltergeist, the original and the

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (30:31)

No.

Gail Miller (30:33)

In the old days, when the TVs were really old and they would go off the air, you'd get static on the thing. And I'm like, that's what it reminded me of. You stare at the static, and you, you know, forget it. It's not gonna happen. Something has to be able to help us that is practical and easy.

Otherwise, who wants to do it? Nobody wants to do it.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (30:55)

Yes, it has to be practical and easy. Also, it sounds like with that light that you were looking at, you said it's 45 minutes. That's the time in a day.

Gail Miller (31:05)

Yeah.

I don't know anybody who has 45 minutes. I really don't. We're moving too quickly. I mean, I guess if you could meditate, but typically when you meditate, don't you shut your eyes? Close your eyes. I'm like, I can't do that and look at the light box and sit there. I just couldn't do it. You know, between the bad lighting for in office buildings and dark nights and things like that, really helps. It really helps. At least it helped me. And if it doesn't help someone, then maybe something else will be developed out there. We're starting to see more and more people that I trust that are going, OK. And some it's just a little, and some it's not as much. But man, I'll take.

Anything to make myself feel better and get off the pills and go, okay, I'm human again. It's important

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (32:17)

Yes. And to contrast the alternatives and the options, I'm curious, what were some of the side effects of the pills that you were taking before you were having this option?

Gail Miller (32:31)

If you're married and you're taking some sort of medicine, it affects your sex drive, which makes your husband unhappy, which causes stress, which puts you right back into the, you're like a hamster on a wheel, right? Or you're tired, or you're not motivated. So you're supposed to be feeling better.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (32:57)

But you don't. So the pills make you tired and not motivated.

Gail Miller (33:02)

Yeah, so I'm like, okay, so I'm supposed to feel happy, but I am sort of, it's not like you're stoned, but I guess you just sort of going along, going, ooh, you know, and you don't wanna go out and necessarily go running. It's hard to get motivated. I don't feel that way at all with this. the light, you know, you're like, it's like I said, it's like when you're a little kid and you would just get up and you're like, okay, I'm ready to play, let's rock. And that's what happened to my body. I just started to feel better. I never felt like that with the medicine. With the medicine, I can roll back over and sleep for another five hours, which wasn't benefiting me. It wasn't practical or decent sleep. It was just, I don't know, escaping reality. Maybe, I don't know. I know, I'm not a completely...

I'm not a medical doctor. I just know that my sleep patterns were better. My moods were better. Everything was better. And I'm like, okay. And it wasn't a pill. So I didn't feel sort of, my sex life wasn't affected anymore. And the other thing is, is that you use something for a long time and then suddenly it's not working the same. So you have to up your dose. And then the doctor goes, Well, let's try this one.

So then you have to wean yourself off of medicine, and then you wean yourself back on a medicine. That's a lot of monkey business.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (34:35)

Does it feel like you become an experiment?

Gail Miller (34:39)

Yeah. And the hardest part is that it's great if you have a doctor that you trust and that your medical system is good. But man, I can tell you right now, that's not always the case at all. My daughter, for example, as a female, had some female issues, and she went in to get a pap smear done, and they're like, No, we don't do that now every year. We just do it. And she's like, But I had a bad result, and they finally cleared my system. You did. And she said, Well, it's in my chart. Nobody read the chart. The doctors and the nurse practitioners and everyone are so, so stressed out and so overworked, and so they're not even taking the time to go, I have this young person in front of me, and these are the issues. So you have to advocate for yourself, but you don't have a roadmap, you don't have parents. I don't know what it is, but there's no way to go, okay, here's my checklist. Now, doc, this is this and this and this and this. So the doctor understands. So to me, that was shocking. It was...

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (36:04)

Yes, it's partly are the appointments very, short over there? they trying to cram this whole checkup and understanding into what five or 10 minutes?

Gail Miller (36:17)

Yeah, it's fast. There's a lot of nurse practitioners, and don't get me wrong, I have the utmost respect for nurses and nurse practitioners, huge. But if they're going to throw a lot on them, they can't handle it all. If you look at the nurses, they're working crazy hours. Just the nurses alone in a hospital, they're working crazy hours.

They're sitting around, they can't get any good food, they can't get out of there, and they're under lousy light. We sort of are trying to get this device for some nurses to try because you, but you go to the hospital administrators and you're like, we have something that might make them feel better. Bottom line, it's money. And I find that really disturbing. You know, like, no, we don't want to introduce this to somebody.

You know, it's this, it's this, it's like, look at your staff. They need.

Yeah, it's a really strange dynamic, and I don't like it. know, I'm like, these people represent you. Don't you think you ought to, you know, say, hey, this is available? We can do something to get it to you and at least try it. If it doesn't work, then don't use it. But I can't even imagine they put long, long hours, long shifts. And they have to be front and centre. Because if they miss something, they're usually the ones that get in trouble. So I don't know what the solution is, but it's... And I've heard it more and more lately, and I'm like, this is not good. It's not a positive thing.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (38:15)

The medical and health industries are in such a crisis in so many ways. And we are both not doctors, but we are women who have been patients, and we have families. And I'll tell you, I went into the hospital, but not for myself. And it was a couple of times in the last couple of years. And I can relate to so much of what you are saying because

Firstly, there was really just one little area to even get outside. And if you know where the benches are, then there's some light, but you can't open the window, and there is a lot less light inside. And I was really lucky that I knew literally, I think three to five types of food I could order over there that were even relatively healthy and real food.

I don't know if it's like that, what you are, but you're in a hospital to heal, and everybody is ordering fries. And I keep going back to fries on these podcasts, but you know, it just keeps coming up. But you know, it's just stunning to me that I think these places are not really set up for those.

Common sense solutions. I don't want to go into sound woo woo and say be all natural because yes, natural things are important, but just in general, the common sense things. It was easier to find a cup of jelly instead of just actual fruit.

Gail Miller (40:01)

It's unbelievable. It's crazy. So when I was in LEC, I also got the chickenpox, which I had never had as a child. I was vaccinated, I didn't. So and I went to a hospital in Austria, had four people, four people at all at one time in the room with me. they're laughing

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (40:09)

Right.

Gail Miller (40:24)

Because the doctor up in this little ski town said, You have herpes. And I went, Wow.

Yeah, the language translation. was like, my God, you know, and I'm so they threw me in an ambulance to ambulance rides down into this thing. And then the care was amazing. I mean, and the girls were laughing. They were laughing at me. They're like, you have the chickenpox, chickenpox. And I said, you know, I've never had this. But the first thing they did was they said, OK, you're good. We've got your medicine. Here it is. You have to go outside.

And I had to go outside and sit outside until my husband, they're like, you can't be anywhere around us. So then I went and stayed in a room for and this was before the human charger. So then I went and spent, you know, two weeks in a room, which was really kind of strange. But that was completely different from my experience when I had my hysterectomy, and I had to spend the night in the hospital, where the bill was one hundred thousand dollars, or just under.

Yeah, yeah, it was, and that was not for the surgery. That was just for the night in the hospital. That was what they built. Yeah, it was absolutely insanity. It was crazy. I'm getting myself out of bed and walk into the bathroom, you know, and I'm like, something is very broken. But if I looked around at the nurses and the nurses' station,

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (41:34)

for a night in the hospital.

Gail Miller (41:55)

They don't get out. They can't they can't leave their posts in order to even give themselves some good common sense, like, you know, get outside and if you work all night long and you do incredible long shifts at night and you go home, the last thing you wanna do is go outside and get some exercise and get some sunshine and that's what you really need for your sanity. So your system is completely whacked.

So now you have something that's portable that might help, I hope. They're talking about putting lights that are better in buildings and things like that. They're talking about doing that for pilots and stewardesses and things like that. But that's a tremendous expense. So.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (42:50)

And it's taking

time to set that up.

Gail Miller (42:53)

Yeah, and the best thing is that people just have to, you know, get a little decent food and get out and get some sunshine if you can. But you've got to have, you got to move and you got to have light. Otherwise, it's not so good because it'll affect your sleep.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (43:11)

So.

We definitely know that the ideal is to get sunshine and have better sleep, but things get in the way. And what we have seen is that the, the things that get in the way that can happen to any of us, because what I reflected on in the previous podcast conversation about this is that I was having some

day trips where I was on the train for three hours and then I might have some calls in a hotel for an hour or two and then I've basically spent a day inside kind of like what you're describing and then it's nearly dinner time and I barely got any light. And so on a normal day, on an ordinary day, I'll get out and have the balance. But if you are doing something different, then it's really hard. And I think that so many people have an equivalent of that

The work-from-home flexibility has changed quite a bit these days. And I'm hoping that when people do have the option to work from home, they can get out for five minutes or a 10 and then get back to what they are doing. Even, I loved using the MacBook in the backyard in a spot that is in the shade, in the shade, so it doesn't overheat, but you can do that.

Gail Miller (44:33)

Yeah, where you just see it.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (44:39)

On the days when you don't have a choice and you are in an office, or alternatively, when people are front-facing. And so it sounds like this device will be really accessible. People might be working in retail hospitality or those things actually. How many people working in hospitality have never worked in that field, but how many of those people are stressed out and miserable? It sounds like that energy boost could help so many people. And you told me that sleep makes such a difference for all of these things. It's really hard for people to get the sleep that I need. For me personally, my weird reality is that when I'm in the city near the beach, I get much better sleep. But when I am out in the suburbs, I just, maybe it's environmental. I just don't sleep quite right. So

It's so, it's so odd. I think there's a bit less of the outdoors. Don't pop out doors as much, and things are built differently. It's something like that, I suppose. Maybe the air as well. But, but you do travel a lot and you've seen that there's, there's work that just requires a bit more travel and you need to feel switched on and alert.

Gail Miller (46:04)

Well, if we go back to the caveman days, our whole world functioned when there was light. And so it affected how we slept, when we slept. It affects light, which affects our hormones, melatonin, cortisol and everything that makes us feel better. And then it helps for women, helps fertility, metabolism, it helps everything. So it also is our cue.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (46:13)

Yes.

Gail Miller (46:33)

when we're up and when we sleep. So something little that can help.

It's super great. I think I mean, you have to, you gotta have, you gotta have a little bit of bright light in your life. And if you can't get it, that's a bummer because you're going to feel it. You know, so if you have something that you, you know, you sort of, I guess it's like brushing your teeth. You start to get used to it, put it on in the morning, you put it on, you punch it. And then, you know, for me, I could tell a major difference. And, my friends who use it consistently.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (46:53)

You will feel it.

Gail Miller (47:10)

That's what they can do. And I'm like, okay, so I have something that can help somebody. So how do you tell people? How do you say, try it? And if it works, super great. I mean, I think it's important. We've got to help each other. We absolutely have to help each other.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (47:27)

Yes.

What I admire about how you are spreading the word is that you're not making this a highly exclusive elite thing. You are introducing this to the nurses, the flight attendants, anyone, because I can tell you want everybody to be okay.

Gail Miller (47:47)

Yeah, well, I mean, at least in the in United States, there's enough people on so many so many antidepressants. This is horrible. It's horrible to feel rotten and and and lousy and you don't feel good and you don't know what's wrong. And that's just awful. You know, I don't wish that on anybody. So, you know, a little something that will help somebody. Let's do it, man. Whatever it takes. It's like giving somebody something to eat. Come on, give somebody an apple, make them feel better.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (48:26)

Yes. And we're not giving medical advice. I'll really reassure that everybody talk to the doctor that you trust, but beyond that, ask questions and alongside whatever the doctor said or in alignment with what feels right with the medical advice, it helps to try something extra. I

It's coming to me now that I knew of some people who were taking antidepressants of some sort, and it was making them put on a lot of weight.

Gail Miller (49:06)

Yeah, that'll do it. Definitely do it. And then that just adds insult to injury. You're like, come on, man. So then I'm going to pop the latest pill, and that's not going to last. And then that's going to cause all sorts of stuff. Maybe something that's as simple as a little bit of light. That's really, you know, we're not talking about rocket science. The other thing I know from doctors is that, like in the US,

You know, they always had reps going to the doctor's offices with the latest, greatest. This is the pill. So give this to your right. And I'll get and I'll feed your office, or I'll do this. And then they sort of tried to taper that down. I don't know if it's still going on or whatever, but a doctor goes to school and they get educated on only so much. Right. And then things are always changing and evolving.

They can't possibly be up on the latest and greatest all the time, especially if it's something as simple as this. So it's a big thing to say there is other things. And you hope that you have a doctor that is going, what else is there for my clients that they care? Unfortunately, in the US, because of insurance and that debacle that we're having,

You know, the insurance companies are saying, well, you can do this, this and this.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (50:34)

What sorts of things are they saying you can do?

Gail Miller (50:37)

Like

we can't, we won't pay for this for your client. We won't do this and this. This isn't anything that's complicated. This is an alternative to make your client feel better that you can recommend or don't, or maybe your client can discover it on their own, but it's a little something and somehow the word has to get out to help them.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (50:59)

This

This is why I am really interested in what we have to call the wellness communities. And this isn't necessarily a common growing kale as close that would be, but this is the spaces where people have freedom to have conversations like this beyond the highly regulated spaces. What you're describing was the insurance. There are some forms of insurance over here in Australia, to put it really simply.

There's a type of insurance where people were wondering if, as a comparison, art therapy and music therapy would stop being covered, but then other therapies were continuously covered. And it's some sort of logic about the evidence or research. I don't really know how they decide that, but

But I think that what you are to bring it back to the human charger here at a minimum, we can see that you do get the clarity, and people talk about the nervous system. If using this thing for a bit can even maybe calm your nervous system, you feel more reassured, and the light is giving you something, then why not?

Let me know if you agree. Why not use something like this alongside trying whatever people want to try? Why do we have to pick and choose?

Gail Miller (52:36)

Yeah.

Well, we shouldn't have to. We should. And everybody's different. So, you know, the little of this, a little of that, and you sort of find your balance. But you don't have to wean on and off of this like like you would a drug. But if you figure a sunny day is one hundred thousand lux of light, and if you don't have a sunny day, it's ten thousand. This gives you the same thing. And I'm like, OK, so I'm getting my blast of sunshine.

And everybody's all excited, know, kids at spring break. It's all spring break. Let's go. Let's go to the beach because they need that that light and they crave it. So now you can just have your light and take it with you, and hopefully make people feel better. mean, it's it's it's I don't think it's overly complicated. I just.

You know, just whatever would make people feel better. It's we got to help each other. I don't know. I really, you know, like I said, this was not my thing. I was like, what I didn't believe it was gonna work, and it worked amazingly and every one of my friends and and colleagues and Olympians and people that I gave it to, they're like, wow

So that to me was like, OK, so it isn't just me. It is helping people. It's not 100 % cure, but man, something makes people better.

Let's share it.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (54:13)

Okay. You mentioned something that I should have given more time and attention to. You said that Olympians are using this. That sort of thing could nearly become a headline. Let's give that attention for a second, because I know what it's like to come from a field of expertise where you take it for granted and it's your normal, but you, too, work with Olympians, and that's your normal everyday life. But to everybody else, that's a big

thing. So you're saying that Olympians are using this and it's helping them.

Gail Miller (54:44)

Yeah, so we have a couple of ski racers. We have a world championship ski racer. And I've known this guy since he was a kid. And he agreed to try it. And he's Austrian. He and his sister agreed to try it after their auntie tried it. An auntie is very tough, Austrian, ex-Austrian ski team. She's a woman who can do anything.

And she and I thought she'll never try this. There's no way. And she first used it to fly back from Austria to Michigan to visit a friend. And she said, for the first time, I didn't have any jet lag, and I didn't have the sometimes it affects your stomach. I guess some people, their their bowels get all blocked up and they get all constipated. Yeah. So jet lag has all sorts of wild symptoms.

Yeah, it affects your gut. So she said, No, I had none. And then she came back. She told her husband and she sort of, you know, she's like, then they flew from Austria to Peru and height. She did both. They were like unbelievable. So she did this little cute little video and stuff. then we she gave it to her to her niece and her nephew who were on the Austrian ski team and unbelievable. They love the results. No jet lag. It also helps them hyper-focus, which was one of the things about it. That's why Gary likes it most, is he puts it on in the morning, and he can just go right into work and just focus. So they loved that, but Rafael Hausserman, he just had an incredible year, world championship. He got second in the Han and Kham, which is a huge famous ski race. And then ⁓ he crashed and hurt his jaw. And he had to go from the ski race he was at to get surgery and then get the fake teeth put in and do all this work. Then he had to fly to the United States for the last year of the race. And he had exactly one day.

And normally, lose a day per time zone that you cross when you fly with these things, or when you fly. He flew all the way from Austria to Sun Valley, Idaho, and one day of training, and then he got, I think he got second. So these are Olympic amazing athletes that are going, wow.

And slowly the word is getting out. And you know, we know the ski world, so that's a little bit different. But trying to get it out to others, we're working on it. We're working on football players and some football teams. Keep your fingers crossed. So far, so good.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (57:52)

Yes.

It's nice. It's nice to see the crossover is between different professions because I should really acknowledge that because I'm in Australia, I don't see skiing. I don't see all of that. However, I do see people pushing themselves for all sorts of work. And for me, the thing that translated quite a bit was the travel, especially because I'm in what is called a regional city that feels like a small town, and I'm reconnecting with the main city, and whether it's that or so some people over here will do a similar commute, but also people like to travel a lot. So the travel is definitely a part of it for me, but the Olympic skiing, that's very significant because either way, even aside from the skiing part, they are travelling to different countries. And I think that it's great to see that the world is opening up a lot more now. We've had a couple of years post-COVID of getting out there. We weren't travelling for a while, and now we are, but we wanted to really make the most of it. And the world is becoming so global, especially as people have online personal brands, people are connecting brands with other spaces a bit more than when we were staying at home, perhaps. And so for reasons like that, it's really important, but even just knowing that you are working with people who are doing a form of high performance, that's really significant. And so you're translating that to the footballers and so on. And it sounds like the common thread is people want to do more than what their minds and bodies are letting them, and literally just giving ourselves more light. It's empowering people to then create the value and experiences that we all want to create.

Gail Miller (1:00:13)

It's kind of ridiculous. It's such a simple thing that you almost, for a while, I was like, you know, I sound ridiculous because it's just light. It's not very complicated. But you're like, but it's really missing in a lot of people just because the way our lives are. You got your screens, you're in bad light, whatever. And no matter what people do, it doesn't matter if you're an Olympian.

Or an executive or a mom, you want to feel better because you have to do the best you can. So you just need a little help, it's kind of nice. I mean, I don't know what it's like to drive across Australia, but I do know that one thing that I love about the human charger, ⁓ like in America, like if you're driving in Michigan and you drive from one end to the next, it's like five or six hours.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (1:00:52)

Yes.

Wow.

Gail Miller (1:01:11)

That's one state. I mean, you're a huge country. When you start to get, know, when you're driving along in your car and you start to go, and you get that sort of, I better pull in and get a cappuccino or an espresso or something, or Red Bull or whatever you're going to do. That's when we put the human charger in, and we've done it. And I've tried to track when I can feel it starting to work, and I can't, I can never.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (1:01:24)

Yes.

Gail Miller (1:01:39)

Because you're right? And I put the button on, and then in about 15 minutes, suddenly you're up and you're trying to put your finger on when that happened. It's not like an espresso where you're like, and then you have the shakes. You're just suddenly awake again. It's so weird. It's really weird. I'm so excited for you to get it. I'm really excited.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (1:01:41)

It's gradual.

Gail Miller (1:02:05)

Because if you have

Gail Miller (1:02:06)

A long haul, you're not going to believe it. You're going to be like, This is weird. It's really sweet.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (1:02:11)

And I hope, I know we booked in for an hour, but I hope you have five or 10 more minutes because I'm getting these ideas. Okay, awesome. And I'll chop that bit out, but you mentioned the Red Bull and the caffeine. We are really identifying the big issues here because people do get sluggish. Some people on a long work day of any sort they are resorting to any of those quick fixes to get their energy. And to be fair,

Gail Miller (1:02:16)

Yeah. Yeah.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (1:02:40)

I love my coffee. I want to be the Lorelei of Newcastle, but you can't rely on that all day. And some people don't like the taste of coffee. So they go to the sugary drinks instead. The energy drinks. It's so bad for you. And if we can get light, having the same impact or a better impact, and people are skipping the sugar, that is going to help their health.

Gail Miller (1:03:08)

I know, monster drinks and this and that. And, know, I'm like, come on, yikes. And, or the little five-hour energy, you know, okay, I get it. But like cramming for a test and stuff, it's like, why don't you try this? Cause then if you're, if you're, you're on that and you're, and you take your, power drink and you get your rush, right. But if you crash before you have to be done with whatever you're doing, but sometimes that's brutal. And I know that kids are getting hurt and sometimes ending up in the hospital. They're mixing alcohol with these power drinks. You're just like, okay, man, come on, this is crazy. So yeah, I would agree. My son was in pilot school in Salt Lake, and I'm begging him, would you just try this thing? Would you just...

I sent you one. Can you just try it? Because you're waking up at four in the morning, driving an hour to the airport, and then flying in the dark, just give it a try. Eventually, he was like, Wow. And he liked to use it before he would get tested. And he said, I could focus in. And my son was like, he loves his Red Bull and all this stuff. He goes, I still like my bad drinks.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (1:04:08)

Try it.

Gail Miller (1:04:35)

which I never allowed in the house until he had to get that on his own, because that wasn't in my home. But he's like, it worked. And he said it helped me focus without the jitters. And when you're a pilot, you got to land a plane. You kind of need that. So I was kind of excited. I was like, wow. So now can you just cut out the really power drinks or at least reduce them down to something a little reasonable? I mean.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (1:05:03)

This

This is going to help anyone to even build their own presence, because I came from a public speaking background, and I believe that with how the economy is now, everybody needs to learn that and to do that in whichever spaces are possible. And looking at my long-term history, a decade ago in my twenties, when I was really getting my reps up, presenting and practising presenting heaps, I actually, there were some moments I was travelling across this state, and I think I must've got a bit sluggish. And so I was having, I think from memory, gummy bears. It was a whole lot of gummy bears.

It's so funny because I adore those photos of the days in my mid twenties when I was basically, hello everybody. And I was so wound up with candy. People called me the energizer bunny, like a battery. That is not sustainable. I was so unhealthy. And now, as I'm trying to meet people and connect in community more now, it has to be healthy and sustainable because I'm 36 and there'll be so many people in a situation like mine where they want to spread the word about what they do. And they might not be 19. And frankly, no matter what age you are, you shouldn't be relying on all this sugar. A bit, we can't control what other people do, but we need a healthy alternative. And light is, I think, you are bringing attention to the difference that light can make.

Gail Miller (1:06:54)

It's like I said, it's really straight, it's almost ridiculous. It's almost like it's just light. That's what we need. Yeah, it's really, it affects so many of our systems and makes them run smoothly versus putting something in our body, you know, like a drink or I don't know, whatever else you want to put in your body. I mean, I am from Aspen. knew what

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (1:07:20)

crucial.

Gail Miller (1:07:23)

made people go all night long, but that was a little different back in the day. nevermind, you know.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (1:07:27)

What was it?

Okay, it was serious enough. You can't say it on a podcast.

Gail Miller (1:07:34)

No, no, no. It was like cocaine. I people wanted to go all night long. I'm like, well, OK, well, just put a little light in your ear and you can rock on all night long and have your energy. You don't need to put something else in your body. I just, I'm like, OK, so it's simple, it's it's it's simple and healthy and not dangerous. And I'm like, wow, OK. And what I like about it is

I don't crash. I don't have a sugar crash. ⁓ I've always been someone who can drink a cup of coffee and then go to sleep. So that was never an issue. But when I go to bed, I'm just, good night. Lights are out, and then it's up again. And that's huge. I wish that for everyone, that good sleep and that feeling that you had when you were a kid. think it's like, wow, can we just go back to that?

Be nice.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (1:08:35)

Yes. And sorry for the tissues, by the way, I'll edit that out. ⁓ You don't get it, look, I want to end with a call to action. And I appreciate that we have taken extra time because light is so simple. What I appreciate about this product and the focus on light is that everybody will have different preferences for food and different, you'll access different foods at different times will have different amounts of time outside or indoors. And a lot of variables will happen, but if we can bring some light back to ourselves, and I'm guessing this thing, it would last a while. It would have probably a couple of years or more of life, this device.

Gail Miller (1:09:32)

So we have people that are calling us after six years, and we just took on the distribution, and all they're asking for is these little things. It comes with these little ear things in different sizes, so you can stick them on. I don't know if you can see it, but it's.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (1:09:42)

AirPods. I like AirPods.

It's like a little rubber cover.

Gail Miller (1:09:49)

Yeah, so that we have different sizes. comes with it, and you can you you just put the charger in you plug it in like you would your cell phone or whatever, so that you can recharge the battery but they're going on six years for this little teeny tiny thing and they're like, no, it's still going but I need some more of these because these fall off. I am like a bull in a china shop. I'm really tough on things, and so I just put a little bit of glue and glued my little ear things on, so they don't, because sometimes if you pull them wrong, they'll fall off, and then you'll lose them. Kind of like when your earbuds fall out of your head. But there are no magnets, so you don't have to worry about any of that weird stuff where it's frying your brain or you don't want to do that. There's nothing. This is so simple and so safe. And people will just think you're listening to music. It's just like, it's...

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (1:10:43)

It's literally just light.

Gail Miller (1:10:48)

As simple as it gets, it's like you're turning on your sunshine for 12 minutes. And if you need a little more, you know, like, need another, I need another hour for my tan and press the button and off you go. So it's a, it's a really simple thing. Really easy. Like I said, I'm really glad I found it because I can't even imagine, you know, especially when I went from, you know, Portugal to Austria. Now I'm in Germany, finding another doctor going through all that, now, and shifting countries, medications and things like that. It's like well, I have this and it's working and it's holding steady, and so my friends that are using it. It's holding steady. So I'm like, okay, maybe we got something that will help people and make them happy

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (1:11:44)

It's a continuity. So call to action at the end of this right now. Are you only distributing to the U.S.? Where can people get one of these? Where can someone get a human charger anyway?

Gail Miller (1:11:58)

⁓ You can get it humancharger.com. You can get it humancharger.us.

But we're working on Australia. We're trying to help them because we'd like to have it distributed

I'm sure we can just send it. I mean, it's humancharger.com or human. I'm gonna have to have Gary tell you exactly how to get that part and how to get it or get it through you or something.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (1:12:27)

Absolutely. Right now, even if I can be a link between everybody else and you and Gary, I'm happy to be that link in any way. And so people need to try that charger, and until you can get a human charger, and in between, and to keep the common sense going as well, of course, get some sunlight when you can. But if anyone is having work or travel or other issues like hospital or being inside a lot for whatever reason, or maybe seasonal depression, then definitely keep an ear out, pardon the pun, to get the human charger.

Gail Miller (1:13:12)

Yeah, it's really unbelievable. like, we're pretty clear. If it doesn't work, then we'll take it back. But you want you to, and you've got to, you know, it's kind of like anything. It's kind of like, you know, I want to lose some pounds. Well, I got to walk every day or whatever it is. You have to use it consistently, and then you get the best results. It's, know, I got to brush my teeth every day. Well, I got to put my human charger on every morning. And then in the afternoon when I'm, you know, having my lunch or something, I pop it on. People are thinking I'm rocking out to tunes or something like that, but it's not; it lasts forever. This thing just doesn't, it doesn't break down. doesn't, I'm like, wow, that's pretty good. I thought that was rather nice. It's, yeah, you know, cause the last thing, I mean, I don't wanna get taken for a ride, as they say.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (1:13:59)

It is.

Gail Miller (1:14:08)

For me, it's got to last and it's got to work. And it does both those things for me, which is why we said, hey, let's do something with this, see if we can't help people.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (1:14:19)

We're doing something with this. I'm going to stretch the word so much. Look, thank you so much for helping so many people with this.

Gail Miller (1:14:21)

Yeah, it was really fun. Yeah. yeah!

Well, we're trying. Thank you for helping us spread the news or the information because it's really amazing. I hope that people start to go, okay, yeah, this can help.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (1:14:43)

Absolutely.

Keywords

cash flow, budgeting, small business, financial planning, salary forecasting, income management

Summary

In this conversation, Amanda Thompson emphasises the critical role of cash flow forecasting for small businesses. She discusses how many entrepreneurs neglect to factor in their own salaries and the importance of planning for personal income and business breaks to ensure financial stability.

Takeaways

Everyone does budgets, but a cash flow forecast should be in place to see how you're going to pay yourself as well.

This is the problem with a lot of small businesses. They don't factor in a salary for themselves.

If you can do a cashflow forecast, you can say, when, how, and how much am I going to get as a salary?

I need holidays. So what's that cashflow?

If you are a one-person show, you may shut down.

I'm shutting down over January. I need a break.

There's no income coming into my business in January.

You've got to make sure I've got enough to get me through January into February.

The only way you can do that is with a cash flow forecast.

Planning is essential for financial stability.

Sound bites

"I need holidays. So what's that cashflow?"

"I'm shutting down over January. I need a break."

"There's no income coming into my business in January."

Chapters

00:00 From Athletics to Financial Advising

00:44 Mindful Spending and Personal Goals

Transcript

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (00:01)

Amanda Thompson, welcome to the podcast. It's great to have you here.

Amanda Thompson (00:06)

Thanks, Melanie.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (00:08)

You've done so much and learned so much. You have quite a journey from athletic experiences to being a financial advisor. Let's dive in and share your story.

Amanda Thompson (00:25)

I'm an open book, so what would you like to know?

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (00:28)

Okay, how did the athletic side start?

Amanda Thompson (00:32)

I've always been really sporty, and in fact, I've done a human movement, which is an applied science degree. So it's always been a part of my life, and I fell into financial advising just by chance and absolutely loved it, and ever since, I've been, you know, I can make a Lycra analogy with money any day of the week, so to me, they're actually not much different in terms of goal setting and creating habits. Yeah, so, and then Ironman Triathlon came about because a friend thought it would be really cool to give me a birthday present that was a half Ironman entry, and I, being someone who is always up for a challenge, took it. And I have done over 30 half Ironmans since and had a couple of world championship appearances.

So yeah, that's the story of my last 12 years.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (01:32)

Okay, and you told me that you have eased up on doing the Ironman competitions. Do want to talk about that?

Amanda Thompson (01:40)

Yeah, look, not by choice, unfortunately. I was telling you off air that my three metronomes or my three most important things in life are my two children, family, work, which is my own business, and triathlon. And there's this concept that there's only room for two and a half out of three of those. So it's always an evolving concept and just before I was supposed to head across to Taupo for my latest World Championships qualification, I went out for a run and didn't come home. I landed in a cardiac ward for three weeks just before Christmas last year and was diagnosed with blood clots in my lungs, which, unfortunately, was a physical legacy of a severe domestic violence attack I'd had a year earlier eased up on the triathlon is very nice way of putting in my eyes that know something was taken from me without choice and having to deal with that is a brand new experience for me but one that I'm committed to and starting to share my story like talking to you today about how everything joins together and how you know that endurance mindset still has to stay with me through this next chapter.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (02:58)

really does. I would like to learn how did you overcome that domestic experience?

Amanda Thompson (03:07)

I'm still healing, Melanie. I think that I really spiralled emotionally after it. I had court appearances because he was charged by the police. There was a whole host of things in that year. I lost my confidence completely. I lost work for a period of time because I was just depleted. I was diagnosed with acute PTSD as a result.

of the attack. And so when I landed in hospital a year later, as much as I had this big cry of what had happened and the realisation that his violence was still living inside me, I woke up the next day and just went, I'm not letting you run my story anymore. You are not the author of my story. I am. And so

That was my real step to healing was starting to say, you no longer have a name. know, as much as yes, you're going to pop up in my dreams and my life without things, and there'll be triggers that go on that are related to you. It's time for me to refine myself, refine my energy, refine my confidence and write my next chapter. And so since the start of this year, so since probably 2025,

I've taken, you know, put one foot in front of the other quite slowly as compared to training for a triathlon. And a part of that is sharing the story because I believe that we learn so much from stories, you know, and I love what I do for work, and I needed to get back to that, but I needed to get back to it as the person I wanted to be doing work as well. And even that's evolved in the way I plan. So I think out of adversity, I've found purpose, which is good in a way. No one wants to have to go through adversity. But it's how you utilise that or where you gain strength from it.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (05:08)

Yes, I think you have a really important wisdom to share because I have seen in recent months and years, I have understood more that women from any walk of life can end up in a situation like that. And it doesn't matter how successful people might look. It doesn't matter how independent we might feel; we can end up losing our independence or our sense of self or our confidence, and it sounds like you are trying to reshape who you are after everything. So I hope everybody can learn from firstly how you are reshaping your identity after this trauma, but also how you grow and maintain your financial independence because you'd have some extra wisdom about that as a financial advisor.

Amanda Thompson (06:07)

Absolutely, and I think for me, I mean, this is a part of what I say, really rough year, and I was saying just the other day, I literally lost a year of my life. It's a bit like COVID all over again in that we just, you, I couldn't, I was out of action for a year.

A lot of that was guilt and shame. You know, I pride myself on helping women through these battles ⁓ themselves. And I actually do a lot of work with women who have been in similar situations, coercive relationships and things like that. And I was so ashamed that I had found myself in that. Then, it takes time to unpack that ⁓ and realise that that is the work of someone else as well. And when you're a positive person, often those things can happen.

And now I do share my story, like you said, if it can happen to me, you know, it can happen to anyone. was, luck's not the right word. It's unfortunate, I've realised that I do practice what I preach, and I had this buffer of money, and I did, you know, have that financial knowledge to be able to stand on my own two feet. And well, I don't know whether standing on my own two feet is the right word, but I had a buffer that, you know, did protect my daughter and I financially when all this occurred. It's financial advice we all learn from the same textbook. And I think for me, one of the differences is that the lived experience and how I bring that lived experience into how I connect with my clients, male or female, I really believe that that connection piece is missing by a lot of people in those types of industries.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (07:52)

I completely agree that although we need to understand the concepts of an industry, it could be from a textbook or from online, wherever we learn, beyond that, the lived experience helps us to understand the everyday practical reality of implementing a lot of the concepts that we know are needed.

Amanda Thompson (08:16)

Especially around money, Melanie, because if you think about it, money is so emotive and people think of it as this material thing, which it is, you know, like if you go and get a hundred-dollar bill, that's a material thing. But money, as the concept, is so emotive. Every single thought we have with money is attached to emotion or feeling. And so how can textbook advice necessarily be the same for everyone, because the feelings attached to money are different?

to everyone as well.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (08:48)

Absolutely. I'm wondering what sorts of feelings about money you have seen. It's almost cliched these days to hear that people don't think they deserve to have as much money. And I want to ask you for a response about the mindset that maybe other people shared, but that I had. I grew up religious and surrounded by volunteers.

And it was all about being selfless, being generous, don't be greedy, things like that. And there were all of these values that tell us you shouldn't want anything. And then you end up with nothing, and you can't survive. Have you seen people with that sort of mindset?

Amanda Thompson (09:30)

Absolutely, think that you know there's a part of my industry is money coaches, and a lot of them do work around money mindset, so I'm not a qualified money coach, but I really believe in this concept because we have to travel backwards to understand who we are, and your story is so common in lots of different ways. know if you've got, I've had people that have had gambling parents, know things like that, so they come from this scarcity mindset and trying to switch that to an abundance mindset can be hard for people because we're taught to be selfless. Yeah, especially women, especially women, and then one step further, especially mothers. ⁓ And so you've really got to work through that is saying that we do, but we do want things as mothers. We want security for ourselves. We want to be able to provide for our children. So it's about switching, you know, as opposed to thinking about money.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (10:05)

Yes.

Amanda Thompson (10:29)

As I said, money is the tool to get us what we want. And what we want is generally a feeling. And so if you think of the feeling that you're chasing first and then put money to it, sometimes with that understanding, you can break past some of those mindsets that you were taught because you didn't really talk about money either back then. So it wasn't a thing you were taught about. It was just this concept of giving and giving and receiving so politely, or giving back, and things like that. I think you can do everything. It's just that we deserve to, anyone deserves to achieve the feeling they're seeking. Anyone.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (11:08)

Absolutely. That's true. So what does your work involve these days then? What sort of, which part of the process, which step do you normally guide? I'll ask later. What advice do you have for people who are starting from scratch, and also those who are maybe looking to grow and get more flexibility?

What do you do?

Amanda Thompson (11:40)

So I mean, my passion is actually small business, believe it or not. I love helping small business people really grow and scale ⁓ and make sure their legacy financially is secure. But I think like attract like as well. So I help a lot of women, in particular, going through divorces or things like that, come to terms with ⁓ what life looks like after, what the next chapter looks like and.

starting to build that confidence. So a lot of that, the way I do that is I'd say that knowledge brings clarity and clarity brings confidence. And so I do a lot of financial advice with educated reasoning. And so I make my clients be a part of that process. And then they've got that ownership as opposed to just handing across a document and saying, You need to do this. I really involve them in the decision-making. I'm still a qualified financial advisor. So generally we talk about investments, insurance, superannuation, cashflow, debt, all of those things, but it's about rounding it out. And I think the word holistic gets used too much, but it is the perfect concept. I really do provide that holistic advice, but with connection. And I really believe in that connection. So if I take on a client, I want them long-term. It doesn't mean that they have to pay me all the time. It's about having that relationship and someone they trust and feel comfortable with to fall back on for the questions. That relationship lasts through the ages.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (13:16)

Yes, the word holistic was almost kidnapped by the crystal and chakras, seen as great as that may be for other spaces. But the word holistic is very useful when we can look at the entire big picture of someone's life. So I'm wondering if that's what you mean by that. Where just looking at the numbers, there's normally a story behind the numbers.

Amanda Thompson (13:44)

Absolutely. It's, you're right, so holistic to me. So I do a lot of workshops for financial wellness. If you can convince an organisation that finance is a part of a personal wellness package, then it should be. wealth, health, it all goes together. The biggest thing at the moment is personal development. Be kind to yourself. We hear that every second day, be kind to yourself. Well, isn't getting financial literacy and confidence with money? And your own finances are a part of being kind to yourself. It means treating gently, but putting your hand up and saying, No, I want more. I want to learn more. I want to understand this. want the confidence. Because then you've got your self-worth. You've got all of those things. Yeah, absolutely. mean, financial that and as I said, for me, that holistic concept is it's still attached to a feeling.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (14:38)

Finance, I think you might be one of the few, possibly the first, on my show, really focusing on finance. And the reason I was so excited for this is exactly what you said, that it is a part of looking after yourself. And even having very basic finances, there's a point where it means that someone can afford the gap payments or the difference in

costs of healthcare, of therapies, even after going through a trauma like yours or something different, having the extra resources to recover from that, but also having the right finances to look after what we eat and whether we work out in groups that might cost a bit. It's to some extent, although there are free options for a lot of the types of wellness,

There will be a point where anyone will need to use finance to even just sort out help.

Amanda Thompson (15:45)

I use the example of quite often, I get people to set goals as I was saying to you up here, but they're always personal goals. Yeah, so nothing money-related, but this client owned her own business, and her goal was simply two kids, yeah, two special needs children. So she wanted to make sure the connection with her husband remains. So her goal was as simple as I'd like to go on a date night every fortnight with my husband. So I do help, you we have to have specific goals.

And as easy as that sounds, that's there's money and money needed, you know, because to have a date night with her husband meant she needed to get the children minded with no family around. So there's a cost involved in that, let alone what you want to actually do on that date night. And so we work through, well, how do we use what we've got and money as the tool to provide you with that goal?

And so when she went on, she started going on date nights, it was really cool. We would, you know, and then we went on to the next goal. So there's some of the things that I do in that sense. You know, small steps, you small steps for everyone. Some people want to jump off the ledge, and I don't think you necessarily need to just jump off the ledge either, you know, because you're not necessarily getting the education when you just dive straight in.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (17:04)

What sorts of things do people want to dive into a bit too quickly?

Amanda Thompson (17:09)

Home loans, investment properties, because we live in Australia and bricks and mortar is what we've been taught is the be-all and end-all. Some people just want you to tell them what to do, and that's diving in as well. I just need to invest, or can you, so that's more what I mean when I say diving in has come with the blinkers on and what they want, but it's all money-related. I want to pay down debt. want to save this. I want to

You know, back back, what do you want, what do you want to feel?

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (17:40)

Yes. What did you want to feel? But also, how willing are you to understand things? And I have been following some entrepreneurs overseas who say, Do the thing that you understand and know. And I appreciate that. But when there's a, when we have less of an understanding of the very basic personal finance, let me know if you agree that we need to understand the essentials of why we're doing what we're doing at least. Because do you think there's too much of a quick fix? And do people, almost, if they just dive in with whatever you tell them without understanding it, do they sometimes even slip into old habits because they're just doing what they're told?

Amanda Thompson (18:27)

This is where I say I bring the sport analogies in. you go if you want to run a marathon yeah and you go on your first training run and run a marathon you'll pull up so sore you've probably injured yourself it'll be absolute hell you won't want to do it again and so you may not ever make it whereas if you start small and enjoy the winds along the way you know I did my fastest K or I hit 5k 10k, you're actually developing and committing to the habits that you need to sustain it as well. There's no difference with money. So if you do what I tell you to do without one understanding, you're not going to be truly committed to it because you're going to question. You're going to question your decisions. And when we question, we'll tend to err on the side of caution and won't commit to what we have put in place either. It's easier to just go, no, this doesn't feel right. Whereas if you do it slowly and create the habits and sustain it, then you're more likely to reach that goal. And when you reach that goal, you know, it's an awesome feeling. It's like crossing the line in a triathlon. And then you want to sign up for the next one straight away.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (19:39)

Yes, I'm keen to ask a question about small businesses or businesses that are trying to grow because one issue that I've heard about online and offline is people who create something that's going smoothly, but there's no real option for them to take a break, or they are irreplaceable. And it could be because some people

don't know how to replace themselves or they think they can't afford it. And I'm not referring to any one person in particular, but I'm wondering about that now, especially I'm in early stages. Other people could be in early stages. I'm curious, is that something you want people to think about early on when they are setting up a small business? How can you make it not completely depend on you to the point where you could become burned out?

Amanda Thompson (20:38)

I think that all businesses, when they start out, matter where, what, or if you haven't got one, you need a business plan. And it can be one or two. It doesn't need to be what we think of these massive business plans. That's the first thing. Where do you want this business to go? What are your goals with this business? Why did you start the business? What is going to be a good old-fashioned SWOT analysis? What are you going to be your strengths, your weaknesses? said weaknesses could be ⁓ that I can't...

You know, can't delegate. You know, what are the threats and what are the opportunities, and the threats are on one. How am I going to take time off? You know, all of those things. But also cash flow. You know, everyone, everyone does budgets, but a cash flow forecast should be in place to see how you're going to pay yourself as well. So this is the problem with a lot of small businesses. They don't factor in a salary for themselves. They just take and hope that it grows and things like that. Whereas if you can do a cashflow forecast, you can say, when, how, and how much am I going to get as a salary? And then you're planning. So I need holidays. So what's that cashflow? So if you are a one-person show, you may shut down. So I'm shutting down over January. I need a break. Yeah. So there's no incomes coming into my business in January.

So I've got to make sure I've got enough to get me through January into February. That's the only way you can do that, with a cash flow forecast. You can't close your eyes, rub a magic lamp and say, I hope January is going to be okay. So the other thing about small businesses is we go into it and we think we've got to be perfect. And so many people think the finances will come. The finances will come or I'm not great at that. So I'm going to focus. We hear so many things in small businesses, too. Do what you're good at.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (22:27)

Yes.

Amanda Thompson (22:27)

You know, concentrate on what you're good at. Well, you've got to be good at it, you've got to be kind of good at finances, or you've got to have enough money to outsource some help to do that. So that's, that's, that's the traps that people fall into quite quickly with small business.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (22:44)

Yes, you need to plan for the quiet times.

I'm have you worked with anyone who's very much the face of their business and then trying to figure out, what's that going to look like a few decades from now?

Amanda Thompson (23:02)

I do it every day, that's me. There's only one reminder. It's highly unlikely I will ever hire another financial advisor because I'm yet to find one exactly like me. So I am the face of my business. As much as I have help around me, they are not me in terms of with the clients.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (23:04)

That's you.

Amanda Thompson (23:25)

have I come across people all the time, but all the time I'm looking in the mirror when I have my team and my team meeting with myself, you know, dealing, dealing with that. And it's about what your long-term goals are. As much as I've got a, you know, potentially saleable business, it's not as saleable as someone who runs purely on transactions. So I've got to make sure my business is providing for my future with that less of a goal in place that I'm going to sell my business for big dollars when I'm ready to.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (23:55)

Right. So are you saying that not everybody needs to have the goal of being scalable for a big sale one day?

Amanda Thompson (24:03)

No, no, you know, so a lot of people, so if you are going to sell, you, if that's not a part of your plan, then obviously your business needs to provide you with something that you're putting away for your retirement or your future. So there's lots of different avenues. Again, it comes down to you. The only person that understands your business is you. And so you've got to have the right people around you, that's my job, to support you in getting what you want and helping you along the way. It's not for me to tell you what you should want.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (24:35)

sure. What are the basic habits? Let's go back to personal everyday habits. Now everybody will have an opinion on those, but I'm so curious. We had an era, probably a decade ago, maybe less, but everybody talked about avocado toast like it was a financial, political statement.

Amanda Thompson (24:57)

I'm

And remember it was $13? Tell me where you can find Avocado Smash now for $13. So back then, they were bitching about $13 avocado on toast.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (25:11)

Now it's ten or twenty dollars more than that.

Amanda Thompson (25:14)

Yeah, you know the habits. So the habits for me, I'm known for saying budget's a dirty word. I don't like the budget. It says a lot about me is I don't like people telling me what to do. And I find budgets are quite restrictive and dictating. So I use the word spending plan. It's again, I am always positive. Yeah, Melanie. So for me, a spending plan is trying to create that surplus. You know, and how do you, so I think that

That switches you on in a positive way, whereas budgets are just like, it's a spending plan that gives you choice. So I think one of the basic things we can do is —well, there's lots of fun, lots of them. So it's mindful spending. So really thinking about what you're spending money on. You know, again, it comes down to what your goals are and what you really want to save money and understanding that. And you're more likely to

be shopping or out at breakfast, for example, and say, Do I really need to go to breakfast? If we bring the avocado toast into it, do I really need to go for breakfast today? What am I sacrificing if I do go out for breakfast today? Am I sacrificing time to get to the goal that I want? That's one thing. And I think that

That's one way people just don't understand, is that again, it's about goal setting and understanding that your goal is not what your next door neighbour's goal is, or it's not what the mother's group goals are. It's your personal goal. It's the only way you'll start to do mindful spending. My second thing is in the era of online shopping, walk away, walk away from that instant gratification, put it in a virtual shopping cart, come back 24 hours later and go, do I really want that?

And the third thing for anyone is start small. Most people will have superannuation. So it's your money, whether you like it or not. So pay a bit of attention to it. Go and have a look at where it's invested, what your fees are, is there insurance attached? What's my legacy? In other words, who's the beneficiary of my super? Does my super fund offer a free financial planning call? Most of them do. So start small.

You know, pay attention to something that is yours. Your superannuation you own. You may not be able to touch it, but it's still yours.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (27:34)

It is yours. You can get a financial advice call through Super.

Amanda Thompson (27:40)

Most of the industry super funds will have a general advice line, and they'll help you work out what investments or talk you through the beneficiary, or what it would be if your salary were sacrificed a certain amount into super. A lot of them have calculators online, and they're online as well. That's, in essence, you're paying for that by paying for the fees of your super fund. So utilise it.

So you don't necessarily need to go out and enlist a financial plan straight away. I'm not telling anyone to do that. If anything, my only little plug is I have a book called Financially Fit Women that men could read as well. And for $40, you can get the whole range of basic ideas on how to start working through things. But your other option is that free option. If you're in an industry super fund, have a look if they've got those opportunities for you.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (28:32)

And definitely send a link to the book, and I can share that with the audience for sure. Are there any other resources that everybody can access, at least in Australia, that we should be using more?

Amanda Thompson (28:47)

Look, mean, the one that people don't know about is the financial counselling helpline. So we have financial counsellors, is often referred to as debt counsellors as well. If you are on Centrelink, if you're on any type of pension, you actually are eligible for free help. So people who are in really dire straits can access that through the financial counsellors' helpline. The Money Smart website is one of the best resources that we have. So that's monysmart.gov.au. That's an amazing resource. ⁓ That's all I can think of off the top of my head.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (29:42)

Do you have any ideas on even categories, anything that someone could use online if they're even in another country, because we get people looking at the podcast from anywhere?

Amanda Thompson (29:55)

Well, you can get onto the Money Smart website,

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (29:57)

And talking about retirement, the thing that I realised, having seen the old comment on the grandparents that passed away a few years ago, people should, I think, expect the worst, but also the best.

I mean, people can get really sick. I watched someone being sick for years on end and needing a lot of expensive treatment and having needs for the right environment, things like that. And we don't know how old we're going to be when we retire. I don't know. I don't know how your clients or your community would even plan for what age they're going to retire.

Amanda Thompson (30:29)

Thank

And there are laws, aren't there, about when you can access your super, when you can access the age pension? But who says you can't retire earlier than that if you want to, and you have the capacity to? And so again, even retirement, as much as the governments will spook how much an average person needs in retirement, I argue that your retirement is going to be completely different than anyone else's because I sit there.

For example, how often would you see someone the same age with exactly the same circumstances? Four grandchildren, the exact same ages, boy, girl, different schools. So even those things, triathlon, whatever it is that you want to do, painting, ceramics, whatever a retirement looks for you, even charity work.

So, who exactly is the same in retirement? How can anyone tell you other than getting some personalised advice for it?

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (31:45)

sure. I'm curious about how you even define retirement because some people identify as being retired but still work part-time or occasionally. Is that still within your definition of retirement?

Amanda Thompson (32:00)

I think so, it's different for everyone, isn't it? So retirement for me would be I can't see myself ever retiring from work, you know, or speaking, you know. I hope retirement looks like travelling the world, speaking for me. I think retirement, you know, generally is we stop full-time work, and we've got a choice on what we do next, you know, so if the choice is to go, I'm going to work a bit, or the choice is I'm going to go and volunteer.

That's where I see retirement. It's probably one of the words that you would not go to the dictionary to find the definition of.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (32:40)

Definitely, definitely. And we're seeing people finding flexibility at all sorts of ages now, especially this is the perfect detour because women, mothers who may be sacrificed a few years and then need to figure out what they're going to do next, they tend to look for a bit more flexibility. So I'm curious, what have you seen that

works for different people. know we're all different, but what have you seen that works for that sort of flexibility?

Amanda Thompson (33:12)

Look, I think more and more women are starting businesses from home to get that. Work from home in Australia has been quite good for that as well. So more women are able to go back into the workforce with the work-from-home concept. But the other interesting thing is if you go back 15, 20 years, the mother could, or the father, you were living off one wage. The cost of living is so great now.

And mortgages that we take on are so big now that often you need two wages. And so it all comes into cash flow, doesn't it? Again, we come back and we full circle to cash flow. How much money is coming in? How much money is going out? What can you do? How do you do it? What do you change if you do want that lifestyle or flexibility around what you do? It is a very general concept.

because again, it depends on who earns what and how many hours and what the opportunities are to work from home. But, you know, the biggest rise of small businesses, small work-from-home businesses, is for females for that very reason, to bring in an income while they are staying at home.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (34:23)

work from home. If someone is starting a business from scratch, are there any very essential dos and don'ts there?

Amanda Thompson (34:32)

cash flow, cash flow, cash flow. You know, I see people, you know, I see people make the mistake, and I will call it the mistake of starting their own business. If they've got capital, it's great, but they put it into, well, they get sold, courses galore, you know? Courses galore, online advertising, online marketing, all of these things.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (34:34)

Okay.

Amanda Thompson (34:56)

Try to take that out of your equation to start with and really figure out what your value proposition is, or what it is that you're selling, and work through or scale in the right way. A reward could be, my business is going so well, now I'm ready to engage in some assistance with marketing or social media or professional development, paid ads, whatever it is. I mean, sometimes some things need paid ads, you've got to factor it into your cash flow. So cash flow, cash flow, cash flow and the bank balance. The two big numbers you need to know, your bank balance and your cash flow.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (35:35)

So part of looking after yourself is to look at the numbers.

Amanda Thompson (35:40)

Mm-hmm. Yeah, look at the numbers and understand them. Take the time to absorb and understand why they look the way they do.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (35:49)

understand why. Okay. So then, once that's all going smoothly, have you got any tips for scaling a bit? I know that not everybody wants to scale these days; it seems like a million is the new normal, and a billion is the new aspiration. That's the impression I'm getting.

Amanda Thompson (36:10)

Yeah, a what though?

A million turnover, a million profit, you know, like this is the thing. know, what numbers mean what to who? You know, a million turnover and you've worked 60 hours a week, a million turnover and you've worked 20 hours a week. See what these fin influencers and all of these people promising the world, they throw numbers out, and it excites us. You know, except stop and look at your own thing and what time. And you know, the basics of things that you could do is, if I'm going, say you want to work 20 hours a week, if I worked for someone 20 hours a week, what would I get paid? And whatever that is. Well, OK, if I'm going to start my own business and work 20 hours a week, what does my business need to make so that I'm getting what I would get if I'm working for someone else for the same thing? So there's simple tools like that that you can do as well. Scaling, when you're built, I think.

Again, you've got to revisit your business plan. You've got to redo your business plan. You've always got to go in aware. That's the thing, isn't it? Just go in aware so that again, you're confident with the decisions you're making. Get the support. If you're ready to scale, you should have enough money to get the support in the right areas you need as well. The other thing about scaling, you know, without going too deep into numbers, is what will it take to scale?

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (37:23)

So.

Amanda Thompson (37:37)

What area are you going to scale? Is it going to take more energy with less profit to scale? What area is the best place to scale in? Who are your clients? Are you going to get new clients to scale? Are you going to upsell to current clients? Are you going to increase? There's lots of ways to scale. So how are you going to scale?

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (37:58)

Yes, that's a question. Would you go from offline to online or vice versa? Would you go from one location to more locations? So it's more complicated than just a vague ideal. So there are costs in scaling.

Amanda Thompson (38:08)

Well, of course.

Yeah, absolutely, there are costs in scaling. So what's the trade-off? know, and is it really, you know, what does that mean? And again, the physical and mental exertion of a business owner to do that as well. So, you know, more than scaling, know, think sustainable. What's a sustainable business? You know, will I be, how will I keep going, and can I do this? And if I do this, is that sustainable? Both mentally you know, mentally, physically and financially.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (38:49)

Calling it sustainable is so significant to me because, one second, calling it sustainable is significant to me because I was looking at other forms of sustainability a while ago, and what I learned from the environmental sustainability people is that whatever habit you are doing in your life, can you actually keep it going beyond the short term?

And that translates so much to financial sustainability and also your health. So it sounds like part of what you were saying is, we going to be able to look after ourselves in the new amount of success and type of success that we're pursuing?

Amanda Thompson (39:36)

Absolutely. If you want a case study on scaling, should go and listen to Christina Carlson's story. know, Kiki Kay, she speaks quite openly about how she was opening physical stores everywhere and X amount of staff and on the outset, it's huge. But with that came costs, more costs, you know. And when it fell down, it fell down hard.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (40:03)

What happened?

Amanda Thompson (40:04)

So she went into receivership because of COVID and because of the rent of the physical stores and things like that. She talks quite openly about it. So if you ever get the chance to see Christina Carlson live or hear her story, it's quite amazing how honest she is about what's scaling, what eventuated from scaling for her.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (40:29)

That's definitely worth checking out. So we need to consider how we are going to create a safety net for ourselves, and also just prevent burnout. In the earliest episodes of my podcast, I heard from multiple former and current small business owners who became so burned out. was affecting their physical health. And this seems to keep happening and

In one sentence, my experience was that I was just giving for nothing to the point where I was sick every other week. That's common.

Amanda Thompson (41:07)

Yeah, and it's a common thing.

Yeah, very, very common.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (41:14)

It's so common. So it sounds like the essentials for what we need to do. I adore how this really has intertwined with wellness so much. It's not simply numbers. And actually, this is probably something we can both agree on. Numbers are manifested in a tangible, visible, everyday life. It's not just ink on a

page or digits on a screen. It's how you're actually living your life.

Amanda Thompson (41:53)

Yeah, I agree. And this is where I think people fall short, in that they don't align money to these conversations or finance to these thoughts and conversations. We forget that it is a part of it; we often see money and finances as standalone, but it is encapsulated in everything we do.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (42:19)

appreciate that so much. Frankly, it was the last thing that I was thinking of. I just wanted to make sure I was eating the right things and whatnot. But then other things just fall short, and it will affect your whole life if you're not prioritising it. We all need to think about this, whether we have a business or our own home or everything or nothing. And I saw a little clip from Eleanor Cardone, who said that wealth is wellness and wellness is wealth. And I'm now starting to believe that because the same essential message is coming from you as well.

Amanda Thompson (43:00)

Absolutely. I mean financial stress is huge. Yeah, if you're living paycheck to paycheck, do you really think that is doing your health any good because you're worried you stressed, you know ⁓ Again, I bring that triathlon mindset that endurance mindset. It's the positive endorphins. It's the stress hormones. It's all of these things ⁓ Money's no different than sport, you know, and sports a physical thing we do to our body, but so stressing about money

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (43:29)

Absolutely. I like to wind up these podcast conversations with three nearly universal pieces of wisdom that everybody should follow. So to look after ourselves, again, whether we have everything or nothing or something in between, we all need to look after ourselves. So what are three things that we can all do to keep ourselves financially sustainable?

Amanda Thompson (43:58)

First and foremost, go look at your super. Go look at your superannuation. Second is to seek help. Don't be embarrassed to ask for help. And three, just like any triathlon, just take a small step forward. It could be the biggest step of your life.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (44:18)

Amanda, thank you so much for all the wisdom.

Amanda Thompson (44:22)

Thanks for watching me.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (44:24)

It's been great and a great lesson. We've learned a lot. Thank you.

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HumanCharger:

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Keywords

Gary Miller, Human Charger, Seasonal Affective Disorder, Circadian Rhythm, Jet Lag, Menopause, Aging, Wellness, Light Therapy, Energy

Summary

In this engaging conversation, Gary Miller shares his unique journey from the world of skiing to the tech industry, focusing on the Human Charger, a device designed to combat seasonal affective disorder and circadian rhythm disruption. He discusses the impact of light on health, particularly in relation to travel, jet lag, and menopause. Gary emphasises the importance of maintaining energy and wellness as we age and the necessity of movement in our daily lives. The discussion highlights personal experiences and insights, making it relatable and informative for listeners.

Takeaways

Gary Miller transitioned from skiing to technology.

The Human Charger helps combat seasonal affective disorder.

Circadian rhythm disruption affects everyone, often unnoticed.

Light therapy can improve mood and energy levels.

Travelling can disrupt circadian rhythms, leading to jet lag.

Menopause can significantly impact mood and energy.

Maintaining energy is crucial for a fulfilling life at any age.

Movement and activity are essential for overall wellness.

Personal experiences can provide valuable insights into health.

It's important to consider long-term health and wellness strategies.

Titles

Illuminating Health: Gary Miller's Journey

From Ski Slopes to Tech Solutions

Sound bites

"You will not have jet lag."

"Happy wife, happy life, right?"

"Just walk. It's that simple."

Chapters

00:00 Introduction to Gary Miller

01:25 The Human Charger and Seasonal Affective Disorder

05:02 Understanding Circadian Rhythm Disruption

09:42 The Science Behind the Human Charger

11:49 Travelling and Jet Lag Solutions

17:34 Menopause and Mood Management

21:38 Aging and Energy Levels

23:22 Living Life Beyond 60

26:29 The Importance of Movement and Nature

30:22 Universal Lessons and Conclusion

Transcript

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (00:00)

Gary Miller, welcome to the podcast. It is such a privilege to have you on the show.

Gary Miller (00:07)

Thank you very much, Melanie. It's a pleasure to be on your show.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (00:12)

I would like to ask two things to get started. For those who don't know who you are, would you like to share something about your background in skiing or sports? Share your background with that and what you're doing with technology now.

Gary Miller (00:32)

Yeah, I come from the ski racing world, which is a little strange maybe, but I grew up as a ski racer, and then I coached our national team twice. And I'm an Olympic team coach. And then I did some filmmaking. I was filming skiers jumping off cliffs and doing this kind of crazy stuff and making commercials. And then I got into designing and manufacturing sports bags and luggage for almost everybody in the ski industry. And I've started some of my own companies. And then when our kids were growing up and leaving the nest, my wife and I decided, let's go live in Europe. So we moved to Garmisch, Germany. And that's where we found our latest little tech gadget called the Human Charger.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (01:30)

The human charger. This is going to really help people. Mean, honestly, I could have asked you so many questions all day about sport, and we'll interweave all that, but this charger is going to really help people because let's start with the problem before we look at the solution. So it sounds like seasonal depression is a real thing. And in some countries, people are talking about it a lot, but in other places, it might be not really understood so much. So, between that and a jet, like what have you seen about how sleep and light and time zones, all of those things can affect our health?

Gary Miller (02:16)

Yeah, one is a little bit, know, seasonal depression has been around for a while. I mean, we see it more in the northern part of America and obviously in northern Europe, where it's dark a lot during the winter. You'll see people get seasonal affective disorder or SAD, and you know, their circadian rhythm is just off, and they don't feel good. They can't sleep well.

They have anxiety. And I think the, I guess the best description, because I don't fit that mould. I'm unusual. I'm a ready, set, go kind of guy. Get up and go, and I'm fine. But my wife is completely opposite, okay? And we were in Lech, Austria. She was working at a ski shop. She was working down in the basement. She was working long hours.

We met this former colleague of mine that had the human charger. And he explained the technology, and he said, You know, we developed it in Finland and it's really changed people's lives, and we want to sell it to Americans, but nobody's ever taken it there. It's been hiding in Europe for 10 years, believe it or not. And I didn't know much about SAD, but my wife did. And she said, I'm willing to try it because, you know,

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (03:35)

I think.

Gary Miller (03:42)

I have, you know, I've got menopause. I've got hot flashes. I've got anxiety. I have sleep issues, da da da da. So she took it and tried it. And within a week, she said it was like night and day for her. All of a sudden, it's the first time she's been able to wake up at six thirty in the morning, bright-eyed, ready to go. She uses it in the afternoon instead of an espresso to just give a little boost.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (03:58)

Really?

Gary Miller (04:10)

And she knew about SAD, so she understood this. Then we agreed to take some samples, do some research, and do some testing. And we went over and saw a couple of friends of ours at a hotel that were doctors from the US. And we said, Would something like this be of interest to you? And the doctor and his wife, both of them were doctors. And they said, yes, of course, we'd love to try it. I mean, we're wellness doctors in America.

We gave them each a sample. They flew back to America. And within a week, he writes me an email and he says, My God. He said, We flew back to the US, okay, from Munich to Denver. We had no jet lag. We feel much better. We feel healthier. We feel more alive. And we can't believe it. And we're gonna offer it to our patients. And that was really our first customer.

And then we thought, maybe we're onto something here, you know? And we did this a few times, and all of a sudden, we started getting into the research and found that one of the most pervasive illnesses that anybody can have today, and nobody really knows about it, is circadian rhythm disruption.

And I don't know if you know much about circadian rhythm disruption.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (05:32)

Circadian rhythm.

A bit, not a lot, but for those who don't know, what should we know about it?

Gary Miller (05:42)

Well, it's, it's.

Circadian rhythm disruption is your internal body clock. It's your biological clock. If you go back 30, 40 years, before we had tablets, computers, mobile phones and all the blue screen devices, we woke up in the morning by the sun. And when the sun set, we went to sleep when it got dark. Because light through our eyes naturally it fired up our hormones in the morning, the cortisol and the serotonin, it got us moving. In the night, melatonin takes over when the darkness comes and you go to sleep. Well now with all the blue screen devices that we're subjected to all day long, it's affected our circadian rhythm. And it's been very pervasive, but nobody really talks about it. It's kind of that chronic.

CRD that nobody wants to talk about, but it is linked. It is linked to obesity, diabetes, metabolic diseases, psychiatric disorders, autoimmune diseases, neurodegenerative diseases and cancer. And I mean, this has been kind of a niche chronobiology for a long time, but now it's really a public health concern. And, you know, incredibly, a hundred per cent of the human population is affected by CRD. They just don't know it. And some of them it's been hiding for a long time. Even doctors today don't realise it. And it can make your life pretty miserable, actually.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (07:30)

Do you think that's one of the reasons why some people struggle so much in an office for a long day?

Gary Miller (07:38)

Yes, exactly. You don't get enough light. You know, they did they did some studies, and I guess on the sports side of it, where I was really interested, is that I come from a sport where obviously it's winter, it's dark, darker, it's cloudy. I mean, we do have sunny days, but, know, when you have cloudy, cloudy days, you don't get the amount of sunlight your body needs to keep the energy going. So.

You know, for me, I was really interested in it. And they had done some studies in Helsinki, Finland, when they developed this with professional hockey players because they're in an arena. And arenas don't get much light. And they found that with the studies that they did, the hockey players, their reaction time, they call it the psychomotor speed of an athlete, their reaction time was sped up when they used the human charger because they got that extra boost of light. And I'm thinking, this is perfect for my ski racers. These guys need this because they're subjected to the same thing. And I think that's where the light for me really came on, so to speak, is that it does have an impact. There were scientists that studied, I mean, they studied this for quite a while, and they determined that transcranial bright light

OK, which is through your ear canal because it's your your eardrum is translucent. The bone structure around your ear is very thin. It's a faster way to get light to your hypothalamus, which has all these hormones. Normally, you would stare at an SAD lamp. OK, that's been the technology for 40 years. People have been staring at a lamp for an hour because it takes that long for the light.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (09:16)

Wow.

Gary Miller (09:30)

to go through your optic nerve and into the hypothalamus. This is a completely different technology. And of course, obviously, you can't travel with a sad lamp because they're big and cumbersome. These things are so small, you know, they're compact, they're portable, you throw it in your pocket or your purse or your briefcase and away you go. And instead of staring at a lamp for an hour, this thing delivers the same amount of light, 10,000 lux, full spectrum, UV free, bright light to your photosensitive areas of the brain.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (10:09)

through the ears.

Gary Miller (10:10)

through the years.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (10:13)

This is telling me so much, and I'll give you some examples that people can really relate to, so we can get into the experience of the listener. Recently, I got very blocked up after some things like that, and my ears were blocked; they were popping for days, kind of like when you're on a flight and it's really blocked. I'm wondering if our ears are not how they should be. Are you saying that we might would that not get the light and what we need for our brains to be okay.

Gary Miller (10:48)

I'm not sure. That's the first time I've had that question.

I think the path, the transcranial path, is so much shorter, even if there was, if you have any fluids or anything, it's basically what's blocking your ears is fluid. It's gonna pass through the fluid anyway. I mean, I had a little bit of a sinus cough maybe a few weeks ago, and I had some, you know, the ears were popping in the same sort of thing, and I still used it during that time, and it does its thing, and I never worried about it. We don't see any strange effects from it. The light is safe to use for sure. It's just more efficient.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (11:43)

That's great. So even if someone is having those sorts of issues, then they can still use the light as well. So, a few questions here. Travel. People are travelling more. And of course, we were taught for a couple of years during the pandemic to stay indoors. And we should really have a cultural shift where

I think for a couple of years we've been out in the world a bit more, and people are travelling, but also we don't always get outside as much when we're travelling. So, between that and, of course, the longer trips that would take hours, and then you're in a different time zone. I'm wondering, could you tell me more about how this light could really help people when they are travelling and perhaps for that sort of reason, they might be inside during the day and then only have spare time once the light is a bit more dark, then how's that going to change things?

Gary Miller (12:46)

Yeah, well, I think I think in general, you know, you talk about people that are indoors a lot and and you never.

You're starting to see a little bit of a shift with companies that build office buildings and put in light that is maybe more tailored to circadian rhythm, but it's very, very few. So most office buildings aren't lit very well. It's fluorescent lighting, and you don't get that boost. And of course, the natural thing to do is run down to the coffee shop in the middle of the afternoon and fire up a, you know, mocha latte or something to give yourself a little boost. Whereas it's maybe not the most healthy thing to do. You know, this thing in 12 minutes, you just pop it on and it's it's a little bit of a weird sensation because it's not like drinking an energy drink or having a coffee or something. where it get all of a sudden you're buzzed a little bit. There's no buzz. It's like all of a sudden, it's like 30 to 45 minutes later, you're just

Wow, where'd that come from? I'm not punchy anymore. I'm not lagging, I'm wide awake. You can be driving in a car late at night, and you get a little punchy. You put this thing on, and half an hour later, you're like, wow, I'm awake again.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (14:13)

So this could help for people who are driving and need to make sure they are more alert.

Gary Miller (14:18)

Absolutely. It's fantastic. It works great for that. And then, you talk about travel. Even though this thing was sort of designed for SAD, right? We've discovered this jet lag thing that just is almost a miracle because I mean, you know, travelling as an athlete and a coach for so many years.

My God. I mean, the jet lag is a killer. You know, you usually for two or three days, I mean, you're feeling pretty rough. If you're crossing five, six time zones ⁓ and you know, our bodies over time, maybe over a thousand years, our bodies might evolve to adapt to jet travel because

The jets will get you to a destination faster than your body can adapt to it. So that's why you feel like crap, literally, for a couple of days. So what happens is, is when you use the human charger, all we do is use it multiple times. So you determine the time at your destination, okay, like seven or eight o'clock in the morning, you might be almost to your destination. start, you use it once, for 12 minutes.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (15:21)

Yes.

Gary Miller (15:40)

And then every two hours for four or five times that day, and the following day, and all it's doing is resetting the circadian rhythm every two hours, and it keeps advancing it. It doesn't allow you to fly all the way to Europe, and then you're, my God, I gotta go take a nap or something, you know? You can stay awake the entire day, sleep through the night, and you do it the next day, you will not have jet lag.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (16:07)

Amazing. I need to ask, though. I hope that you're still recommending that people get their rest and their sleep, but it sounds like this will help as we adjust our patterns.

Gary Miller (16:19)

Yes, it does. It does help with sleep.

If you travel to Europe, for example, and I'm using the America to Europe because it's what we're accustomed to. But what it does is you might stay up a little bit longer that first day you arrive, but you don't feel sluggish. And then you get a good night's sleep. Because normally, if you didn't use this type of light, you're going to be punchy all day. You're not going to feel great. You don't have any of that energy boost, which this gives you. And then you're going to sleep till about three in the morning. And then you're going to wake up and you're going to go, oh my God, I need another three hours of sleep and I'm not going to get it. For whatever reason, this thing works. It works really well to allow you to get a really good night's sleep. You wake up the next day, you're in a more normal time, and then you do it again for every two hours for the day. And pretty soon you're just on the normal schedule again.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (17:34)

wanted to ask more about your wife's experience with this because you mentioned that she had some health experiences that were also influencing her moods. And I'm really curious about that because there's a lot of talk now about menopause and pre-menopause. And also, I think that women really need more resources. I mean, everybody does, but they need resources to make sure that their moods don't stop them from achieving what they want to achieve. And especially, we've heard recently that in medical research, women were excluded for so many years in a lot of the research. So this is why I'm really curious about your wife's experience, because I think these sorts of stories definitely need more attention.

Gary Miller (18:29)

I couldn't agree more. mean, listen, and obviously, I'm speaking as a husband to a wife who has gone through this, you know. She's had menopause and then had to have some surgery to take a few parts. so, you know, you got to...

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (18:51)

So do you?

Gary Miller (18:55)

A couple of the female parts have to come out because they're no longer in use anymore, and those were screwing things up, and it's kind of a normal thing, from what I understand, with a lot of women. So then you're on some hormones and other medications to sort of get your system balanced again. And she struggled with this for quite a bit. And like I said, when she was working in Lech, Austria, you know, in a basement which was not lit very well for, you know, eight hours a day. And then, you know, for her to be able to, you know, get up early in the morning feeling great, go to work, power through all day, have a good night's sleep, it's just been a game-changer for her. I mean, it's, and she uses it. You know, I may use it once a day.

Sometimes twice, if I'm a little draggy in the afternoon, I might throw it on. She'll use it maybe three, four times a day, and just, it keeps her even keeled, keeps her moods up, keeps her happy, more energised. Yeah, she loves it. I mean, it's really been a game-changer.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (20:03)

Yes, and the hormonal issues, I think that's so significant because we need whatever we can get to level out our energy. And it's, it's so interesting. I mean, the foggy head, you don't understand it until it happens. And it's something that you can barely even describe. But I don't know if everybody is talking about how, after a particular organs are removed, there are all these hormonal shifts. And that's, that's huge. So if she wants to go on the podcast sometime and talk more about that, then I would welcome that so much because I just know that we need so many, we need to try anything. We live in a world where women want to keep achieving. And I think the other, of course, shift in the last hundred years has been that we are aiming for a career, people of any gender, we're aiming for careers and trying new experiences at a much older age. I mean, it was really normal to say 40 or 50 be just dismissed as middle-aged and thinking about retirement, and not much else. And now in this era, we're having what some people call a third, second and third act and…

But then we have to think about how we're going to look after ourselves. So that's a question as well. I mean, I'm wondering if people are maybe having different energy issues as they are getting older, but they still want to live life. You see, I mean, I haven't heard from older people, like even I say older and I shouldn't, but 60s, 70s, anything like that. Even the 50s, perhaps. Have you seen how there are energy shifts and but they still feel like themselves and they still want to live life. Have you seen how the light affects that?

Gary Miller (22:16)

Yeah, in fact, remember the two doctors, the couple from Denver, they're in their 70s, you know, and they're skiing in Austria, and they're still actively practising medicine. And, you know, for them at that age, it was like, this is fantastic. You know, it's it's it's given us a new lease on life. And I think, you know, it doesn't matter.

I'm 12 years older than my wife. I mean, for me, I use it in a little bit of a different manner, but for her, it works. And obviously, she would be the expert on what it's done for her. But there's the old saying here in America that, happy wife, happy life, right?

Gary Miller (23:12)

It's really important, and it's important for me that she feels better, you know, and it's really done. It's done wonders for her. It's fantastic. Yeah.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (23:25)

Yes, absolutely. I think we can all only talk about our own personal experiences, but I believe so much in lived experience because you can be a medical expert on some conditions, some life changes, but then once you actually see it and experience it in everyday life, then that's really different. But these doctors were in their seventies, and that is something that people can learn from, because whether a listener might be around that age or a lot younger, I think we need to consider what we're going to do. And I can ask you about that. We need to think about what our lives are going to be decades from now, not to plan it out so much that we rule out other options. But I don't think that people should assume that by 60 or 70, they'll just be in an old folks' home and maybe playing cards.

I think there are so many opportunities, and we're celebrities. It's great to see some celebrities who are silver-haired and still living life. But I'm wondering what wisdom do you have for people who want to really have a few different areas in their lives? Because, of course, you went from sport to doing great things with tech. What can you suggest?

Gary Miller (24:49)

You know, that's a that's a great question because, you know, I'm lucky I had a grandfather that had polio when he was 12 years old. OK. And this was back in the early 1900s. And they didn't have they didn't have things. They didn't put polio vaccines or anything like that. I mean, he spent nine months of his life as a 12 year old kid in a sanatorium in Cleveland, Ohio, getting put on a rack.

to stretch his legs to make, you know, so that they would grow straight away. They didn't know anything back then, and it was painful. And this guy, of course, he walked his whole life with a limp. He was a successful businessman. He became a well-respected artist, a well-known artist. And he was way ahead of his time. He rode his stationary bike every day, and he would ride it for an hour. He, my God, I'll bet he went around the world like three or four times. It was ridiculous. mean, and he moved, he did hard labour, he built his own house, he ate the right foods, he took cold showers, all this sort of stuff that was never the thing back then. And they told him in that hospital, he'd be in a wheelchair at 50 and he'd be dead at 55. Well, the guy didn't go into a wheelchair until he was 98, and he died at 100. So you're so spot on because people have a life that can go that distance, but they have to do certain things. They've got to look at things like a human charger and natural things.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (26:25)

Wow!

Gary Miller (26:44)

They've got to use light technology. They have to eat properly, stay away from fast food, and most importantly, they have to move. They have to move every single day. Get some sort of exercise, even if it's a long walk. It's so important. They can work, get jobs, do things, because you shouldn't retire. Retirement, as my grandfather would say, is the kiss of death.

It is absolutely a kiss of death. He painted and he painted until he was 98, and he had macular degeneration, so he couldn't see out of one eye. And he said, ⁓ you know, I've painted enough. Now I'm going to write. I'll dictate to my caregiver, and I'll write my books now. That's what you know, that's that was his attitude. So it's like, you know, he's been such an inspiration to me.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (27:35)

Yes.

Gary Miller (27:44)

Because I'm writing a couple of books right now and I love to write, and so, you know, I have a lot of stuff I want to get done before I say toodles, you know, to the world. But the other thing, the other point I want to make is this is going to come from people like you. You guys in the wellness space are what we need to rely on because you're not going to get it from the medical community. Sadly, very few. Mean, you've got a few doctors like the Curavillas that I mentioned before that are terrific, but they're they're more into the wellness space anyway. But it's people like you that have, you know, this wellness podcast and in the in the business of wellness, of teaching people things that that are that are natural, that are healthy, that can help them live a longer life.

Because the medical community is, you know, it's big pharma, it's medications, it's take this pill, it's lose this weight with an injection. It's all this stuff that you don't need for the most part, right? And some people do really need some of this stuff, but for the most part, you don't. But you're not seeing it coming out of that realm. It's coming out of people like you that are doing this. And that's only going to grow because people do want to live a

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (29:12)

We do want to live a long life, and also some people will live a long life, but wish it could be more comfortable. And that's crucial. Surely, having this light and also looking after our energy means that we can look after ourselves. If you don't have the energy in the moment, then you might not be able to prepare a meal or go for a walk because you feel sluggish, or you might not have a conversation in community or do the work you want to do because your mind and your energy might not be up to it. So it's going to affect the quality of life. That is very much the trend, with things like the Blue Zones, and we've heard about various ways to live naturally. And the amazing thing about this is, honestly, a couple of years ago, I thought there was something extremely hippie about simply looking after ourselves, but it doesn't have to be that. I think that the mainstream, it's great to see that the mainstream is accepting wellness because what I saw, what I saw personally is that, well, for example, my grandmother had cancer and she died in 2021, but

It was just a whole lot of medical treatments, you radiation, all of those things. And she was, there were moments when she was just in so much pain, and I don't remember anyone saying to her, okay, what else can you do beyond being hooked up to a drip? I don't remember hearing about that much more than the drips into the pills. And what you were doing is finding more ways for people to regain their energy because seriously, it's partly we should live to a long time, but what would happen if anyone who's listening to this could live to a hundred, but feel really, really unwell for years or decades within that? Is that really how we want to live? So it's really inspirational. And I'm wondering, said that movement is really important.

We've heard so much about the light, and it's worth really taking this opportunity to let people know, since you have worked with athletes so much, what can we do? Frankly, whether we end up a professional athlete or whether we're just inspired by them to take the next step beyond going for a walk, what should we all know based on that experience?

Gary Miller (31:52)

You know, that's an interesting question because the first book I'm working on is about pain. OK. And for me, it was watching a Netflix documentary on Big Pharma, now, Purdue Pharma that came out with OxyContin. And it's like, I couldn't understand in my own brain why people would take this kind of medication and sit on the couch, watch TV or just zone out and then become addicted to it. And some end up dying. I just couldn't fathom this because I come from, you know, the ski racing world. Maybe a lot of people don't know about it, but it's not it's not that different from. You know, football, rugby, basketball, some of these contact sports, because I mean, you know, we're subject we're doing our sport out in very cold, harsh conditions.

Now everything on the ski World Cup circuit is ice. So, you know, you're skiing at high speeds on ice. My body's been beat up over the years, you know, and multiple surgeries. Nobody gets out of that sport without having some kind of surgery and repair job, whether it's knees, hips, ankles or whatever. And so maybe we're a little bit more used to the pain factor, but the one thing that can take pain away is movement.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (33:32)

Wow!

Gary Miller (33:33)

It's, I can't describe it any other way. If I wake up in the morning and I've had one disc taken out of my back, the other one below, it's not such a great either, you know? So I have to nurse that one a little bit. But if I get up and it's sore, if I get out of the house right away and I go for a walk or a hike up in the mountains and do a circuit, I'm back within an hour and that pain's gone.

It's gone. Plus, I've gotten my light outside if it's a sunny day. And it's, I'm telling you, people don't, they don't understand that. We've been so accustomed to, you know, reaching for the bottle of ibuprofen or Tylenol or whatever we're going to take. And you just don't need to do that.

Get out!

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (34:28)

We were sold those things because it keeps us sitting at a desk for longer.

Gary Miller (34:33)

Yeah. Get up for 15 minutes and go out and walk around the building. It's, it's, it's as simple as just going out and breathing some fresh air, and you know, hearing some birds, and all you need is 15 minutes. Don't go out and stand there and smoke a couple of cigarettes or go pop a pill, and chug down some an energy drink or a coffee, it's just go up, just walk, walk.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (35:09)

Just walk. It's that simple.

Gary Miller (35:10)

Just walk.

It's that simple. And of course,

Having spent so much time in Europe being an American, I couldn't wait to get here because the people here, everybody is out walking, hiking and biking, and it's just crazy. The further you move into Scandinavia with the Vikings, and the more research I did for my book by diving into the Vikings, it works. It works like magic.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (35:47)

takes away the pain.

Gary Miller (35:48)

takes away the pain.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (35:51)

And I'm wondering if it heals as well. So you talked about injuries. Now this is the opportunity I never thought I'd have because back in 2017, you might know what this is. I got a tibial plateau fracture. So I read that's 1 % of fractures. I just slipped in the bathroom. I don't have an impressive skiing story, but

Gary Miller (36:06)

Yeah, sure.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (36:16)

I convinced myself for a long time that I couldn't even do a yoga practice. I felt scared to cross the road. And I think that although one or two people told me you're normal again, I didn't feel normal. And so many people out there might get an injury, and you can really teach everybody if people have an injury or even just feel a bit stuck after hours of travel, whatever it might be or feeling a bit stuck after sitting at a desk for too long, then I'm wondering, will the walk, what can people tell themselves to get the confidence back and trust that movement is going to help even if they might have the doubts?

Gary Miller (37:03)

I think people that go through surgeries, ⁓ the first thing they'll notice is that they'll put them on a rehab program. I mean, they should anyway. In Europe, it's really big. They get them right away. Whether you have a hip replacement, a knee replacement, or just surgery for an ACL or whatever, or even a tibial plateau. mean, they're painful things, but...

You need to move it. You need to keep it going. And the biggest mistake that people make when they have a surgery and they do this is that they're taught a few things. And this is kind of notorious in America because they don't follow through very well on rehab. It's different over here. They get you into rehab right away, and they get three, four weeks of rehab to get that joint moving again. So, I guess the easiest story is I've had four surgeries on one knee because my meniscus has been split and fractured and whatever. So they take out bits and pieces. And the first time I had surgery, I was told to get on a bike and ride that bike religiously to rehab it. I blew it off. Didn't do it. So four years later, I was back having surgery again because there was so much scar tissue that had built up. They had to take that out. So I learned my lesson. So the next time I had surgery, I was on that bike the next day. It wasn't feeling great. Obviously, it was painful, but you ride through it and you get through it. And you can generally, and I'm not advocating a doctor's advice because I'm not a doctor, but...

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (38:36)

Well.

Gary Miller (38:58)

Generally, movement is key because it keeps things from stiffening up. If you're going to sit at a chair all day, you know, I rotate between sitting at a table in the house or I go to a stand up. I have a stand-up table, and I rotate back and forth so that you get some constant movement. Movement is so key. It's so key. If a doctor says, Your leg isn't weight-bearing for a while.

You gotta listen to the doctor. But you do have to do rehab. Surgeries are easy. You don't feel generally any pain. You're put out with the anesthesia. It's rehab that's the bugger. And that's where you gotta grit your teeth a bit.

They got, you know, put on your big boy and big girl panties and grind it out because it's not fun. Rehab can be difficult. But the more you do and the sooner you do it, the better off, the quicker you'll recover. And you'll really start to understand pain, you know?

You will. And although rehab is difficult, I'm guessing that one thing that might help is, like you said earlier, getting out and moving around outdoors. There's something about seeing the sky and hopefully seeing the trees if there are any around, just seeing the world a bit, to not be isolated and not just be inside. And then move around and enjoy it. Have you found, especially in sports and beyond, that people get more movement when it's fun?

For sure. You know, I mean, listen, Australia has beaches galore, right? Just go out, walk in the sand. It's so good for you, you know, because the sand, the sand is in a solid platform. So it works all those little tiny muscles inside the big muscles, which actually is very beneficial as well. Just a nice walk on the beach for 20 minutes. That's all you need, you know, and constantly moving.

It's, you know, unfortunately, our society is such now that it's so digital that, ⁓ you know, it's too easy to sit down and watch 300 channels on the tube or, you know, or just stare at the phone. Leave the phone at home, or as I do, I listen to music. I just throw the phone in my pocket and I, but I don't.

If I'm going to go out and do something like that, I don't answer emails, I don't answer texts, don't, you just, you gotta, at some point you gotta make the call. You gotta say, I don't need that right now.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (41:57)

Yes, what worked for me is I recently started remembering the days before social media, when, so 2008 times like that, when we had a phone but we weren't obsessed with it, I would just go for a walk near a beach, near an island, and I was just in awe of what was around me.

And I can confess these days I will go to the beach and have my device out, and it's not the same. And you would, I was going for a walk recently, and I saw a woman going through the jog or the walk with the phone in front of her like this, the whole time. And that's not even really visually connecting with the surroundings with much focus at all. No.

So many people do that because we're told we should. And it's okay to maybe share a chunk of life with an audience for a moment, but it sounds like what's going to help us mentally and physically is to just switch off for some time from the devices.

Gary Miller (43:08)

You have to. It's for your own sanity. It's, yeah, I don't know. I have a harder time. I try to stay away from social media as much as possible because to me I love nature more. For me, it's hiking. We've got a trail up near the house that we can use; it's a beautiful mountain stream that comes down.

And it's so peaceful, or in the wintertime, to go out and ski for me, skiing a run just where I'm out in nature, and the wind is blowing in my face, is just. It's fantastic. Yeah, no. We need to go back to the way it was. I was lucky I'm old enough to be lucky to my sisters, and we call it being raised by wolves because.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (44:07)

Good!

Gary Miller (44:08)

Because it was, you know, we had three channels on the TV that had nothing on it, right? And so it was like, we'd get up in the morning and power down breakfast and out the door we'd go, and we just invented stuff. We learned to figure stuff out on our own. We played in the woods, and we played on the water, and we did all these goofy things, and the last thing you hear was the dinner bell ringing, and then you ran home to have dinner, and then you went back outside at night and did the same thing.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (44:38)

And that gives you space and time for creativity, whether it's ideas for tech, whether it's something else. It lets you come up with something on your own instead of just being bad information. We can actually put something out into the world. As we wind up, I wish we had so much more time, but I wanted to know what are three universal lessons that you want all of the listeners to remember?

Gary Miller (45:10)

Well, I'd say I would say the first one is ditch the ditch the digital devices as much as you can. mean, listen, the computers, the phones, they're magical, right? I mean, it's it's it's done. It's done everybody a world of good in so many ways, but it's also been very bad for our health and wellness. So, you know.

Get rid of the digital stuff as much as possible. Use it for what it's intended for. I mean, we can do podcasts like this, a half a world apart, which is fantastic. ⁓ And the emails and all this sort of stuff is great, but leave it at that and take part of your life and really go out and enjoy it. Movement, movement is so critical. Don't sit around.

Don't get in front of the TV every single night. Get out and move, get some fresh air. In the morning for me, it's the best time. And that's when I can be creative is when I'm out exercising in nature. That's where I get my best ideas. And then I just log them and I try to remember them, not write them down on a phone. And I think the other one is light therapy, it's really only in its infancy right now. People are just now discovering that a little bit of extra light from a device like the human charger is so critical to give you that boost that we've lost. And we've lost it because the blue screens aren't being conducive to our overall health and wellness.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (47:02)

Amazing, great wisdom. Gary, thank you so much for talking today.

Gary Miller (47:07)

Thank you, Melanie. I appreciate it.

Automatically Generated Show Notes

# Episode Titles

1. Imagination Is Everything: Behaviour Change, Self-Love & Identity with Dr Marilyn Cornelius

2. From Limiting Beliefs to Limitless Living — Veganism, Trauma Healing & Swimming a Kilometre

3. Design Your Identity: Mindful Change, Compassion, and Planet-First Choices

4. Fail Early, Love Deeply: Practical Behaviour Change You'll Actually Do

5. Choose Your Path: Self-Compassion, Climate Action & Creative Flow

# Episode Description (Short)

Behavior change scholar and author **Dr. Marilyn Cornelius** joins **Melanie Suzanne Wilson** to explore how imagination, self-love, and tiny behavioral shifts can transform identity—covering veganism, climate-friendly living, trauma-informed healing, learning to swim after 38 years of fear, and how to face failure with compassion.

# Episode Summary (Expanded)

This conversation dives into the real mechanics of change: why imagination precedes creation, how limiting beliefs (often rooted in trauma) quietly script our habits, and how self-compassion makes sustainable change possible. Dr. Cornelius shares her journey from environmental design to behavior-change research; her on-the-spot shift to plant-based living for climate and compassion; and the identity reset that came with becoming "a swimmer" after decades of fear.

You'll hear practical frameworks (mindful noticing → compassionate self-talk → values-aligned action), design-thinking mindsets (fail early/often), and Social Cognitive Theory's triad (personal factors × environment × behavior). We also tackle activism without burnout, navigating extremes in wellness communities, and using curiosity over judgment—online and IRL. Three memorable takeaways close the episode: **notice yourself**, **be compassionate**, and **relentlessly follow your authentic path**.

# Key Takeaways

* **Imagination first, strategy second.** If you can't imagine it, you can't create it.

* **Limiters often = old survival strategies.** Catch them in the moment; rewire with kinder inner speech.

* **Self-compassion sustains change.** Harsh self-talk breaks habits; warmth brings you back tomorrow.

* **Prototype your life.** Use "fail early, fail often" to learn fast without over-investing.

* **Identity shifts through doing (and being).** Sometimes you act into a new identity; sometimes identity clarity flips the behavior instantly.

* **Planet-positive living scales by love, not guilt.** Do the doable, model it joyfully, set consumption boundaries to avoid burnout.

* **Curiosity beats judgment.** People bring their healing level everywhere—lead with connection.

# Chapters & Timestamps

* 00:00 Imagination is everything — making space for insight

* 00:31 Welcome & guest intro

* 01:13 Marilyn's meandering path: art → environment → behavior change

* 04:50 Real food, waste sense, and habit blind spots

* 06:12 Limiting beliefs from early messages; first book surprise

* 08:42 Learning to swim after 38 years of fear

* 11:14 Self-forgiveness requires a base of self-love

* 13:20 Identity, imagination & being present with yourself

* 16:38 Too many options? Choosing at the crossroads

* 17:21 Career Manifestation: follow what doesn't feel like work

* 19:10 Fear of "drowning" (metaphor & life)

* 20:02 Design thinking mindsets: fail early, often; beginner's lens

* 22:53 Barriers, social approval, and showing up relentlessly

* 24:05 Flaunting your "weird" — authenticity as strength

* 27:24 Planet-friendly steps without guilt or anger

* 31:16 Kindness across politics, economy & online noise

* 33:44 Extremes inside wellness & meditation spaces

* 37:29 Judgment vs curiosity; career "up" or "down"

* 39:56 Triggers that linger; ratios of catching yourself

* 43:20 Emotions as signals: fear, rage, grief, anxiety

* 45:50 Yoda wisdom: fear→anger? Light & shadow work

* 47:27 Change is constant; practicing courage

* 49:35 Becoming "a swimmer"; identity in motion

* 51:00 Doing begets becoming (and sometimes vice-versa)

* 52:34 Social Cognitive Theory: identity, environment & behavior

* 53:11 The Big Three: notice, be compassionate, follow your path

* 54:13 Close & blessings for "talkers"

# Featured Guest

**Dr. Marilyn Cornelius** — behavior change scholar, prolific author (47 books and counting), coach, facilitator, climate-conscious advocate, and creator of plant-based cookbooks and self-love frameworks. Born in Fiji, educated in the U.S., Marilyn applies behavior science to trauma healing, diet, mindset, and sustainable living.

# Pull Quotes / Sound Bites (Clip Ideas)

* "**Imagination is everything. If you cannot imagine it, you cannot create it.**" (00:00)

* "**Self-forgiveness rests on self-love.**" (11:23)

* "**Fail early and fail often**—so you learn before you over-invest." (20:02)

* "**Be in love with life and model your values.** That's activism without burnout." (27:24)

* "**We're unlimited beings**—meant to create in our own ways." (13:20–16:00)

* "**Do the doable; let go of guilt for the rest.**" (27:24)

# Resources & Links

* Guest: Dr. Marilyn Cornelius — Alchemus Prime: [https://www.alchemusprime.com/marilyn-cornelius/](https://www.alchemusprime.com/marilyn-cornelius/)

* Melanie Suzanne Wilson / The Motivate Collective: [https://www.motivatecollective.com/](https://www.motivatecollective.com/)

* Mentioned: Social Cognitive Theory (identity–environment–behavior triad)

* Related episode(s): [Add your internal links here]

# Calls to Action

* **Subscribe** on your favorite podcast app and **rate/review** the show.

* **Share this episode** with one friend who's ready for a gentle identity upgrade.

* **Join the newsletter** for tools & upcoming workshops.

* **Work with Melanie** (keynotes, coaching, speaker mentoring) — booking link on site.

# SEO Keywords / Tags

imagination, behavior change, limiting beliefs, self-love, trauma-informed, vegan / plant-based, climate action, identity shift, design thinking, fail early fail often, mindfulness, compassion, Social Cognitive Theory, resilience, swimming fear, wellness, sustainability, creativity

# Hashtags (for socials)

#ImaginationIsEverything #BehaviorChange #SelfLove #MindfulLiving #PlantBased #SustainableLiving #TraumaInformed #IdentityShift #Compassion #DesignThinking

# Episode Credits

* **Host:** Melanie Suzanne Wilson

* **Guest:** Dr. Marilyn Cornelius

* **Producer/Editor:** [Name]

* **Recording Platform:** Riverside.fm

* **Music:** [Track/Artist, licensed]

# Content Notes

* **Trigger warning:** brief references to childhood abuse and trauma (08:00–12:00, 39:56–43:20).

* **Disclaimer:** This episode shares personal experiences and educational insights; it's not medical or therapeutic advice.

# Sponsor (Optional Section)

This episode is available for sponsorship. To partner with The Motivate Collective Podcast, contact: [email/contact form].

---

If you want, I can also drop this into a Google Doc or create a platform-specific version for Apple Podcasts (shorter), YouTube (with clickable timestamps), and your website (SEO-expanded).

[1]: https://riverside.com/show-notes?utm_source=chatgpt.com "AI Podcast Show Notes, Summary & Chapters in 1 Click | Riverside"

Transcript

Marilyn Cornelius (00:00)

Imagination is everything. If you cannot imagine something, you cannot create it. My imagination is more important to me than anything else.

I try to cram lots of facts and trivia into my head. I like my head to be empty so that I can have spaciousness for imagination and for creativity. So I'll give you an example. When I'm walking after brushing my teeth, I'm carrying my toothbrush and I'm walking out. In that moment, I'll have a flash of insight, and then a new book will have arrived. And so, actually being with yourself.

Being present with yourself is so important.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (00:31)

Wonderful. Marilyn Cornelius, welcome to the podcast at last. It's great to have you on the show.

Marilyn Cornelius (00:39)

Thanks so much, Melanie. How are you?

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (00:42)

I'm alright, how are you?

Marilyn Cornelius (00:44)

I'm doing very well, thank you.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (00:46)

I'm so glad you have explored so many areas of wellness. You have looked into behavioural change, and you also explored the difference that can be made by living sustainably and by eating sensibly. But let's start with how would you explain to everybody your professional background and what you do?

Marilyn Cornelius (01:13)

I would explain it as a meandering. So in high school, I really wanted to do a little bit of everything, which I did.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (01:16)

Okay.

Marilyn Cornelius (01:23)

And then it was really hard to focus. My art teacher was a little pushier than the others. And so I ended up in graphic design school. And then I noticed all of my art was about the environment. And when I looked at my portfolio, it was all about environmental conservation and the protection of endangered species and so forth. And so when I went for my bachelor's degree, the first degree I have is in associates. So when I went for the bachelor's, I majored in environmental resource management. And that's where I had my first awakenings about behavioural change. had a professor who was teaching me about the environment, and he was commuting every day for about three hours in his gas-guzzling SUV to teach me about the environment. So I got up in his face a little bit and I said, Hey, you know, what about this hypocrisy and all of that? And I was angry. I guess it was the activist in me. And eventually I started to turn that scrutiny inward, and I began to change my own behaviour. was, when I was born and raised in Fiji, but while I was in the US, 22 years total, a lot of my education was there, all of my tertiary education. So I never drove a car. I was always riding a bicycle, taking the subway and all of that because I was very mindful of my impact on the planet. And so after doing that degree, which was a really powerful one, we looked at not just management and business and environment, but we looked at spirituality as well. So I had a lot of awakenings, but it wasn't until I started my doctoral work that I was really hit by my research. I was looking at how our behaviour, our residential and business behaviours, daily actions that we take, impact and worsen climate change. And my dissertation is about reducing energy use and reducing greenhouse gas emissions through behavioural change. And one of the items of research that I discovered was that globally, greenhouse gas emissions through animal agriculture come to a very significant amount. And I was already a vegetarian for health reasons, you know, it just felt lighter. And then I went vegan on the spot. I decided I would be on a plant-based diet. So it was largely motivated by climate change. And then I had other awakenings about what animals go through, the torture and the slaughter and the industrialised system of, you know, animal agriculture and how harmful it is not only to animals, but to land and to water and to the climate. And I had some spiritual as well, around just unhooking myself from that whole system of torture and not putting trauma into my body because I am a trauma survivor as well. So I think behaviour change has become, as a professional, my foundation, and it's a foundation that's universal. So I apply behavioural change to everything, whether it's trauma healing or dietary change, mindset change, or a lot of my clients hire me to help them move toward the goals that they desire and the goals that they set because their behavior is usually going in a different direction and then they wonder why they haven't met their strategic plan and all the goals they're in. I think behavioural change has become something that I have a bias for. I look at things behaviorally. Are we actually doing something to change this, or are we just talking about it?

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (04:50)

Absolutely. Now I know that I have seen the difference in my life of eating real food, eating whole plants and trying to just be sensible about things like waste as well. But I know that our audience will have all sorts of preferences, and what feels right for them.

But the one common thread in terms of food that most people will agree on is that you're not going to feel better eating ultra processed foods. And we also know that there are some amounts of waste that just don't make sense. And there's something that everybody can do. Along with that, we're seeing an immense trend for entrepreneurs and people trying to improve their lives in any way, looking at behavioural change to figure out what the habits are that are keeping me where I am? I'm very curious about that because I have probably a lot of blind spots for where my habits are keeping me stuck and the listeners probably do as well. So, is there a way to get started in figuring out

What are we doing that we shouldn't be doing that can be applied to any of these things?

Marilyn Cornelius (06:12)

That's such a great question, and it's complex, so I'll unpack it best I can. So Melanie, one of the things that's worked for me is understanding limiting beliefs, which usually come from trauma. So at a young age, we're told things like Don't do that, What's wrong with you, Are you silly or stupid, You, this is not okay, Don't do it. And so whether it's done by caregivers, parents or someone at school, maybe a bully, you know, we start to hear things that nudge us to thinking that maybe there's something wrong with

us. And one of the limiting beliefs that I internalised pretty young was that I talked too much. And so I took to my diary, I would write instead of talking, and then I became a writer, you know, and now I talk for a living, you know, I give talks, I'm a facilitator, I'm a coach. So it's very interesting because the limiting belief was that, you know, something was wrong with me when I talk, and I need to stop. Another very gigantic limiting belief for me was that I could never write a book because a book is so big and it would never fit in my head. And so this was a limiting belief I carried for many years. And then 10 years ago, when I had changed my diet, I was already a vegan, but I went gluten-free, and I started to work on my trauma because I was having flashbacks about being a survivor and things that I had endured as a child. I was abused as a child, trigger warning. So, you know, I was two years old, so I had suppressed all of those memories. And then when I started to remember, I self-stigmatised and I thought there was something wrong with me. But then, as I worked on myself and I worked to heal myself, I went to many people for help. One of the limiting beliefs around the one I mentioned about writing, I could never write a book, started to melt away. And someone asked me for a set of recipes for Christmas, and I sat down to write a little booklet for her, and 39 recipes later, I had my first book. And so I published it, I shot the cover and all the art inside, and I had it published in five to seven days. And I realised there was something opening in me that wanted to write. And so I had been writing poetry for years, and I'm wrapping up my 19th book of poetry at the moment. I have 47 books that I've written to date, and it was like a channel opened, and I started becoming this prolific writer, and the books would arrive in my head perfectly formed. So completely defeating my limiting belief that they were too big to hold in my head. I've actually had to run out of a conference

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (08:14)

Okay.

Marilyn Cornelius (08:42)

To write a book one time. It arrived fully formed. wrote it from start to finish. And so this process is so exciting. And it's almost like getting out of your way and getting the limiting beliefs out of your head. So when we have limiting beliefs and other habitual thought patterns, they go into the subconscious, and that's where they live. And they're really strong. And what we need to do then is become aware of them. That's the first step. Once you're aware that you're having these thoughts that put yourself down, because maybe someone else did, then it's time to rewire those neurons. So every time you walk down that path of belittling yourself or doubting yourself, you've got to catch yourself. And you can only do that if you're mindful and aware and in the moment and present, not running and rushing, which most of us are doing most of the time. So if you catch yourself, then you think a more positive thought and say you're failing at something. And I'll give you the example of my swimming. I almost drowned when I was 10 years old. And so the fear set in pretty quickly, and I had a range of limping beliefs about my swimming. I'm uncoordinated in the water. I must have drowned in a past life. There's something wrong with me. I'm better off terrestrially. It's never going to be for me. Breathing is so hard, et cetera, et cetera. And it wasn't until this year that, because of an injury, I was told I cannot do my usual forms of exercise, lifting weights, doing Zumba, dancing, etc. So I had to face the pool after 38 years of not being in the pool.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (10:06)

Thank

Marilyn Cornelius (10:10)

And so took me a month to actually go to the pool. And then I got in, I bought a snorkel to help me breathe, a front snorkel. And I had, you know, the moment I started swimming, I just felt free. And then I started swimming more and more. And six months later, I did my first kilometre. That was last week. And now I'm working on my kicks. You know, I've become a swimmer. I cut my hair short. My whole identity has shifted. I love swimming. I cannot wait to go to the pool. I'm going every day. And so limiting beliefs play a large role. And if you're able to catch them and face the fears and do the things you really want to do, ⁓ that's huge. It's a huge, huge step, but it happens in small steps. So buying the swimsuit, buying snorkel, actually going to the pool, asking how much it's going to cost and getting in the water, even though it was really cold in the water and getting used to doing things that are uncomfortable. So breaking out of the comfort zone and making yourself a new comfort, but, it's fun. That's healthier, it takes work, but it can be done.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (11:14)

Are you saying it's okay to forgive ourselves for the time that we take to do one step and then the next step as we climb towards our new selves?

Marilyn Cornelius (11:23)

Absolutely. That self-forgiveness can only come if we've built a foundation of self-love and self-compassion.

And so one of my books is on self-love. And I talk about the fact that no one teaches it to you. So you grow up and you've got this very harsh self-critic that lives in your head. And so the way you want to talk to yourself is if you think about your favourite elder in your family, someone who's frail and maybe declining, or you think about the infant in your family, someone who's very vulnerable and beautiful and young, and how you speak to those two people. That's how you want to speak to yourself in your head.

So,

You know, when I tried to do my side breathing and I get water in my nose or in my mouth, I tell myself, oh, you're trying, it's okay. Just, you know, today's maybe not the best day, and you've tried, you've tried hard. So let's come back tomorrow. And then I keep coming back because if I am critical, I'll fall off the wagon, which, of course, many people do when New Year's comes around, right? You have those resolutions, you fall off the wagon and because you've berated yourself. that self-love is about being your best friend, being there for yourself, nurturing yourself, and the compassion comes to replace the harsh critic that lives in our heads.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (12:38)

Replace the critic in your head with something else with compassion. And as we have compassion, can still do the things to become the person. I'm wondering, it's so good the timing of this conversation because I've had so many questions around this topic. Identity. At what point do we know that we are having the right type of imagination about the identity we should become, and is there such a thing as too unrealistic? Is there such thing as being too unrealistic in the identity that we are trying to shape?

Marilyn Cornelius (13:20)

That is such a fascinating question. Based on my research as a doctoral scholar, I learned that teenagers are still forming their identities, right? So they are malleable. We implemented a behaviour change curriculum with them because they'd be more innovative and all of that. In my personal experience, I didn't know who I was even in my 20s. Even in my 30s, I don't think I really knew. I began to know who I really was when I started working on my trauma. And as I mentioned, I've become a prolific agent of writing or of books, like books happen through me. So how do I identify myself? These days, my identity has more to do with my service. What am I able to do for people, for animals, for the planet?

And it has nothing to do with my ego or my sense of self or who Marilyn is. That has more to do with my principles and my values. Depending on our spiritual belief system and our mindset, identity is either fixed or some parts are fixed and some parts can be changed. As far as imagination goes, I think imagination is everything. If you cannot imagine something, you cannot create it. My imagination is more important to me than anything else.

I try to cram lots of facts and trivia into my head. I like my head to be empty so that I can have spaciousness for imagination and for creativity. So I'll give you an example. When I'm walking after brushing my teeth, I'm carrying my toothbrush and I'm walking out. In that moment, I'll have a flash of insight and then a new book will have arrived. And so, actually being with yourself.

Being present with yourself is so important. But most of us are not comfortable with ourselves because we're carrying something, past pain of some kind, or adverse childhood experiences. So identity can become very complex and very conflicting. Because we're not comfortable with who we are, we mistakenly identify trauma as who we are. So you'll see things like self-loathing, self-sabotage, because people think, like you might think, I'm this horrible person. I feel terrible inside.

That feeling is something that you've endured and suppressed. It's not actually you. So, parsing out the trauma from within you and healing it is critical to figuring out who you really are. And I have a framework for how to step into self-love as a foundation and then do a series of deep dives into the trauma to heal yourself. And if you do that dive, those dives without your self-love, it's very dangerous because you can be re-traumatised. So you build your self-love foundation, do deep dives into your trauma, heal, and then you emerge as a true self, as your authentic self. And then you bring that authentic self to your career, which then becomes your calling, because now you're doing what you were born to do. So I think this process speaks to our identity. We can be unlimited. I think I'm proving this in my life. Otherwise, I wouldn't be able to sit here and talk to you about it. I would have no leg to stand on. But because I'm living it, I can say it, that we are unlimited beings, and we're meant to create in our own ways, with our own specific sets of skills and talents, we have purpose here. We're not just here to pay bills and then die, you know.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (16:38)

Yes,

Yes, we are here for more. We really can do more. I'm curious. So when we are setting up our next goals and figuring out, okay, here's one. There are so many options for what you could do and who you could be in the world, especially in this technological…

In this age where there are so many things that we could be, do you have any advice for someone who's sort of at a turning point, a in a road, perhaps a bit of an identity crisis? How do you help anyone to narrow it down?

Marilyn Cornelius (17:21)

Absolutely. This is something I work on in coaching. It's called my career manifestation program.

So I'm very familiar with this. also been through it. As I mentioned, my career has been meandering. So I went from graphic design to business and environmental management to behaviour change and climate change. And then, I never planned to be a coach; I became a coach because people started coming to me for coaching, and I became a facilitator because I started facilitating in grad school and discovered that I love it. So my answer is that figure out what you love, figure out what turns you on, figure out what doesn't feel like work.

For me, a lot of things fit that. So writing feels wonderful, helping someone, coaching feels wonderful, painting feels wonderful, cooking feels wonderful. I've done nine cookbooks, and I'm working on a tent. So there are things that I love. And so some part of that set of things that I love are going to become a stream of things that I do to earn money. Some of those things will be things that I do just for love, and I don't earn money. So I give away my art hanging behind me, some of it, I give away.

I love making art, and I don't love making it for money. So I've drawn that boundary for myself. So I think that self-knowledge is really important. So many times, we are so pressured and we become paralysed thinking about what we need to do and the roles we need to play in our lives. And so, easing that pressure and really finding the time to follow what you love, to self-reflect and to observe, I got into a flow state for two hours. Was I doing? I was doing this, and that is a clue because life is short, so why spend your time being miserable when you can spend your time feeling like you've never worked a day?

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (19:10)

Exactly, life is short. Serious question here. You talked about the experience years ago of drowning and surviving. Okay, I'm going to have a bit of a stretch here, all right? I bet you a lot of people would be scared of metaphorically drowning. It sounds very cliched. It sounds like some sort of song lyric, but how many of us feel scared that we will perhaps fail, feel humiliated or lose everything? Or there are so many forms of things that could feel like drowning, suffocating, sinking, losing and so on. So how can we all get past those fears and pretty much anything?

Marilyn Cornelius (20:02)

I love your questions; they're beautiful. So this is a really critical question, I think.

One of the things that really helped me with this was when I was in my doctorate program in grad school, I took a class in design thinking, and it's a systematised methodology that comes from product design that's all about creativity, a systematic process to make you creative. And one of the mindsets is to fail early and fail often. And this mindset comes in when we're prototyping, when we're building a rough solution idea, and you get seven minutes to build it. So in seven minutes, you can spectacularly fail.

or you can build something but that might not be the right thing and so the idea is that it's rough and the idea is to get out of your head and just do it just build it and then learn from it and so I combined that with the learning mindset with the beginner's mindset there are all these different mindsets so let's look at it this way if I'm a beginner that means I already don't know too much so I don't have to be an expert I don't have to worry about not knowing and I don't have to worry about making mistakes if I'm going to fail early and often that's really important because if I fail early and often. I'm failing before I invest a lot of time and money and other resources. So it's really important to fail. So we're flipping failure on its head as a desirable thing. We need to fail. And then if I have a learning mindset, then I see every mistake as a learning opportunity. And I'll give you some examples that might be considered humiliating in my swimming journey. My friends, when I was visiting for a conference, I went to Berkeley, California, and my friends said, If you're having trouble with breathing and you want to start swimming, just buy us a snorkel. So I went and bought a snorkel, but it was a scuba diving snorkel. It was the wrong kind because no one said you should buy a front snorkel. That's for swimming in the pool. Then I bought flippers, again, the wrong kind. So today I went to the pool, and one of the friends I made in the pool was looking at my flippers, and he said, Yeah, those are for snorkelling. And I said, Yes, I know. I finally ordered the right kind, but they haven't arrived yet. So I failed miserably. I did some things that could be considered humiliating, stupid, or just completely poorly informed. I'm a woman with a PhD who's trying to face her fear, and I didn't do the research, right? I just went out there. just pushed myself out of my comfort zone. I failed early. I failed often, and I still swam my first kilometre. So I'm sinking and swimming, right? I failed in many ways, but I'm, you know, the thing that I'm doing that's important is I'm relentless. I show up, I keep showing up. And I know that my swimming journey is not only about facing my fear, it's about keeping myself healthy because fitness is important to me. It's a value. It's part of my identity.

And so there it is again, you know, what will it take for you to overcome those barriers? In behaviour change, we talk about barriers. So everything I've been saying, the limiting belief, making mistakes, being judged, feeling humiliated, shamed, and embarrassed.

know, social approval, social disapproval, these can be barriers for us. We might be people pleasers, so we just want to do things that will make someone proud of us, but we might be miserable inside. And so as a coach and as a human being, for me now, it's about what's going to make you filled with joy and what's going to be authentic for you. Do that, because life is short to be chasing other people's approval, approval of yourself, and be there for yourself when you fail so much that when other people judge you, it doesn't matter so much because their judgments are about them. It's about what they're holding inside. They're, in a sense, throwing a slime at you. You don't have to catch it. You can just let it fall flat and move on. Focus on yourself and do what you want.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (23:37)

People throw opinions at us and we can just not catch it. That is powerful, especially in an era when there are so many opinions available to us. There's the internet, we can be in big cities. I know some areas are more populated than before, and we're just so connected. But you don't have to absorb every opinion about you or about anything.

Marilyn Cornelius (24:05)

Absolutely. I've become.

very comfortable with being a weirdo. know, I may look and talk like a regular person, but if you come to my office, I have Baby Yoda everywhere. I'm framing a jigsaw puzzle about the Death Star. know, I'm a Star Wars nut. I'm a Transformers junkie. I have Optimus Prime and the Alchemist, book, sitting on my bookshelf because my company is named after both of them. The book changed my life, and Optimus has always been, you know, this amazing force for good over evil. So I flaunt my weirdness.

because it's who I am. I'm a dork. I'm happy about it. I love it. If you don't love it, that's okay too.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (24:45)

so inspired right now because you're proud about being weird, but also you've made so many books, and you coach people and you teach people. That's an inspiration because I'll just go ahead and say some of what you've said, I suffered from the same thing. You said earlier that you grew up thinking that you talk too much.

Marilyn Cornelius (25:10)

Someone said that to me in school.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (25:13)

My goodness, sorry, I just paused and sank in that moment because I grew up, frankly, even to this day, some people think that I talk too much, but then get me on a stage, get me on a podcast, and it's useful. But the rest of the time, it's annoying. But you know, we really do end up, we really do end up thinking these things and it sounds like it's okay to be different. Be the one who talks too much because that's a form of weird. Even, sadly, it is still cultural to care about the planet. And I think these days I have been tiptoeing around the topic of the environment because I know that there are some people who care about humanity, but they're not prioritising the planet. And part of the balance or the tug that I think has emerged for some social groups is that people are still trying to live the life that they want or need to live to continue to maintain their family life, whatever it might be, and look after themselves within what they know within their surroundings.

And deep down, no one wants the planet to go. And whatever we think is the cause of that, we all know that we shouldn't be tossing loads of rubbish on the ground. We all know that if we became hoarders, it wouldn't be so good. There's a line for everybody. There's a line somewhere. So I'm really wondering.

How would you guide people who want to take some steps to simply be supportive of the planet? You don't have to be an activist and hold a sign somewhere. We don't have to be Greta, but how do you guide people who are not Greta but still just want the planet not to be rubbish, but are trying to, then still live in a world that's very modern? What do you recommend?

Marilyn Cornelius (27:24)

I just want to say Greta is awesome. ⁓ But yes, this is a critical question. You know, I've been on all sides of it. I used to be the angry vegan activist, you know, I've done demonstrations, I've done all kinds of picketing and all of the protests. I've been there. When you become an activist, you start to change your life, then you get really angry and upset that no one else is doing it.

What you forget often is that you didn't do it until you did. And there was some pivotal moment that shifted you. So seeing every person as a sacred person on their own sacred journey in their own divine timing will help us to just stop wanting to push people. So now I approach my activism with love. If I want people to do something for the planet, I do it. I'll just focus on myself. So I think my answer is go within yourself, find your authentic self, and figure out what your limits are, what your boundaries are, and what can work for you. And then do that. So if you can recycle and that's all you can do, do it. If you can stop driving for a day, do it. If you can give up meat for a day, do it. And then stop feeling guilty about the things you cannot do, because the things you cannot do are taken up because you're paying your bills, paying your mortgage, taking care of your kids or your sick aunt or whatever it is you're doing, right? So as long as you know what you can do, do it. Now,

I used to spend a lot of time stressing about everything. And people still ask me, How could you know what you know about climate change and not be freaking out every day? Again, my answer is about knowing yourself. So I know that if I spend all my time looking at the data on climate change and looking at the extinction of species and looking at the animal agricultural statistics and how all these videos that show how animals are being tortured, I will just be completely broken down, I'll be sobbing, I'll be crying, I won't be effective. So knowing my, you know, my self-care is about my boundaries. So knowing how much you can handle of the bad news and then limiting that so that you can be effective. So I can go out there and I can help people, I can coach, I can spend a whole week leading a retreat.

And I know the causes that I'm fighting for, but I also have to be good enough to fight. Because if I'm impaired and I've taken in too much of the negativity, I'm not going to be able to do much. So I think my answer has two parts. One is first, you have to know yourself enough to take care of yourself. And then two, figure out the parts of activism that work for you and do them and do them with all your heart. I met an architect who builds sanctuaries for animals, someone I met this year, and I thought, well, this is so inspiring. He's an architect, so he builds, and so he's building for animals. He's building sanctuaries. Mean, use your talent, use your uniqueness to do something that's meaningful to you. And don't only ⁓ expose yourself to things that drain you, because you need to be inspired to be a good activist. And my activism is about love. So instead of telling people, hey, you should eat this, it'll be better for your liver and better for the climate or whatever, I just cook, I take relentless

Pictures of food, and I have my diary on Instagram, my food diary, and I publish cookbooks because that is my love, and that love comes from my heart for the source of my food, which is the planet, and my love for animals. Not wanting to eat them because I want them to be happy and to be with their families, just like me. So living our values is a form of activism. You don't have to be angry. What if you were in love with life and in love with nature? What we revere, we would

of a harm. And so build that reverence for nature. And someone somewhere will look at you and be influenced by you, rather than you trying to be angry and then trying to be angry with yourself because you don't feel you're doing enough. So I think the love is an agent for activism.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (31:16)

Let's.

I think that we need to keep that mindset in our heads for how we relate to people we disagree with, and also how we worry about other issues like the economy. The economic trends at the moment, a lot of people are concerned about how the way work is done has changed, the way to support yourself has changed, and the cost of basic life has changed; a lot of things are shifting. So we can apply those concepts to that as well. Do what you can. But also the loving kindness to ourselves, but also to other people, I would encourage everybody to keep that in mind when relating to the opposite end of the political spectrum, whatever it might be. And even people within each political space, I'm curious if you saw as well that every group, it's nice finally saying this, every group is so clicky or reactionary in some way. Even within the mindfulness space, I was hearing about the politics of the mindful wellness industry, I

I'm seeing some nods. And there's the division of even within the plant-based world, not vegan, but so for those who don't know, vegan is save the piggies and the other animals. But plant-based is eat more kale, eat more cashews, that sort of thing. So vegan focuses on the animals, plant-based focuses on what you're eating. But it's often about your health, but even within plant-based, some people get so passionate. When I early on explored that scene, there were some people in the Facebook groups, no, you shouldn't have the oil at the top of a peanut butter jar because they're completely oil-free. So they expect me to throw out that oil because heaven forbid, it's oil.

Even though it was there, it's in the jar of peanut butter. And have you seen, actually, that's a good question for a behavioural change. Do you see people going to the extremes with anything?

Marilyn Cornelius (33:44)

I see it all the time, Melanie, so I've got so many stories. I've been judged for being a vegan. I've been judged for many things. And I joined a meditation organisation as a volunteer. became a trainer.

And there I was, abused by a narcissist because she was threatened by the way I was growing the movement. Here we are, volunteering our time to help bring meditation to more people. And I was getting abused in that organisation. So I had to leave the organisation. Of course, I still love to meditate using that technique, but I think there are extremes everywhere. And I think people will take something good, but their neuroses or their trauma will then show up. So whatever you're fighting in or for is like a microcosm of the world. So whether you belong to a political party or a meditative group or a particular way of eating or even the swimming group, you know, I'm joining one soon because my friend's an open sea swimmer so I don't know what kind of eccentricities will be in that group but I think people bring who they are and their level of healing or lack thereof to wherever they go.

So, you know, one of the things I try to do is I try to expose myself to newness. I talk to every cashier. I talk to every taxi driver, every Lyft driver. And I try to treat them as a human being. So I'll say, Hello, how are you? How's your day? Are you busy? You know, just I'm making conversation. It's a lot of people say, that's small talk. But I'm actually curious to see who this person is. I want to make a human connection with them. Maybe I have two minutes while they ring up my groceries, or I'm at the produce market.

I go with my parents to the produce market. Everybody knows who we are now, because we've been doing this. I smile and wave, I say hello, and now they do it too. And now, when one of us is missing, they'll ask, Where's your daughter? We still maybe don't know each other's names, but we have a community, a sense of connection to each other. And when I go swimming, I know the people at the front desk. Good morning, how are you? And so I never ask them, Do you eat plants, or do you eat too much oil, or which political party do you support?

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (35:32)

Thank

Marilyn Cornelius (35:50)

I'm here for you as a person. I'm connecting with you in the moment and I think if we can do that, then I think we can do anything

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (35:51)

No.

Yes, yes.

It is partly about the sense of community and connecting with everybody and seeing everybody's value. And you can do that in small ways to just keep yourself grounded, but we also have boundaries, and it's just momentary when it feels right for us. And seeing everybody's values is crucial. I also found that everybody has a story.

This is why I've accepted so much variety on the podcast. I had experiences in my everyday life. I'd catch an Uber and realise that someone has a really interesting main query and might just be doing this to pay off some bills or whatever the reason might be, they could be a photographer or a chef, anything, but also sometimes people had career changes and one time months ago, to social thing, I met someone who did really interesting

I can't remember what sort of work it was, this fascinating electrical design, whatever it was, this interesting career and then just didn't want the pressure and decided to become a bus driver. Now that's, I personally believe in going up instead of the other way. However, you need to not take the granted. Do you agree we really need to not take the granted that anyone could have something that can teach you?

Marilyn Cornelius (37:29)

Absolutely. Think going up or down is a judgment. Maybe the bus driving allows the person to meet people, to not be lonely, to stay focused and present. Because when you're driving, you have to be in your body, you have to be focused. And maybe this other complicated electrical design work was just too much pressure. Maybe they were getting headaches, or maybe the quality of life wasn't there, and maybe the money didn't make them happy. So it really also depends on what you want out of your life. And again, the more we judge ourselves, I think, the more we judge others.

So pulling back on the judgment, extending the compassion, just being mindful that the person that you might hate online because they love Trump or they love the political party that you hate or whatever it is, also has a family might also be really effective in their job, but they have a belief system that's different from yours. And so, you know, the more people that we can extend our circle of compassion to who are different from us, the more peace we can build in the world, the more security we feel inside, we don't feel threatened. And this again, for me, the common denominator is trauma. If we're easily threatened, easily insecure, easily lashing out, there's something within us that's not resolved. And we're using that to project

onto others and to get triggered easily. So for me, every time I'm triggered, I have a post-it sitting here, right?

something else that I've typed up and put on my desk to help me remember what my triggers are and how to behave when I feel triggered, so that I can calm myself, soothe my nervous system and respond rather than react. So I think a lot of what is going on right now is reactivity, overwhelm, anxiety. And we saw that when COVID hit, right? We saw that. And a lot of career changes happened then, too. But I think there are a lot of people who are trying to figure out if they're awake or not. And when they do wake up, they take actions that maybe those of us with conventional mindsets may not understand. And that's a perfect opportunity to be curious. Instead of making assumptions, we should ask questions, and then we can learn. And this is part of the learner's mindset too. And I think a lot of our curiosities have become dampened because, as children, we probably got told off for being too curious and asking that why question over and over. So a lot of my clients, when they come to me, we do a lot of in our child work too, to try and reconcile. Where was it that you lost your wonder, your joy, your curiosity, your creativity, and let's bring it back. And let's let that lead you into whatever it is, whether it's a career change or an evolution into a new identity that you feel that you want to now discover. Because I do feel that we have an authentic self. It's about discovering it and removing blockages that prevent us from being who we are.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (39:56)

See you.

Thank you.

I'm wondering, do you ever have moments where you know that something is triggered by trauma, and you feel like you can't override this? Is there a point where sometimes we know we should be transcending the

the triggers within us, but it's so ingrained that at least for a moment, we are how we are, and then we realise afterwards, I was just feeling terrified again. Something was just switching. Can that stay for years or decades for some people?

Marilyn Cornelius (40:59)

Absolutely, yes.

I've been working on this with my therapist. So in my case, I've absorbed some of the harmful behaviours of a caregiver. And when I get triggered, that same tone comes out, you know, and all of a sudden I catch myself and I realise, my God, it's embedded and here it is and I have to stop it. And then I feel a horrible sense of guilt that maybe I've said something to harm someone because that's where it's coming from. And I know it's coming from there. And so this is, you know, something that I grew up with… I was born in

So it's deeply embedded in my body and in my body's memory, and so it comes out and it and I know what it is I'm working on it, but yes, it can come out and the word that you've used the phrase should be it should be gone. It's not gone until it's gone, right? We keep working on it and keep working on it, and a day comes when the instinct comes out like, know, you want to to react and because you are triggered and then you catch yourself and you soothe yourself. So I think we should look at it as ratios. The ratio of how many times I'm able to catch myself versus how many times I am swept away by the trigger. You we want that ratio to change over time and this is behavior change, right? It's one of the hardest things we'll ever do to catch yourself when you're triggered and to decide differently and to soothe yourself and to shift your behaviour and your thinking. And I'm in this right now. I'm working on myself all the time.

So yes, I know exactly how it feels. And it is difficult. And there's a lot of self-judgment that can come. Why am I still afraid of this? Why doesn't this feel safe? It's because it doesn't. And your nervous system's not ready. And so that compassion can come in and say, OK, we'll go around again. We'll keep going. I'm with me. And I'm safe. And if I'm not safe, I'm going to do what it takes to be safe. And so I have my practices. I do sound therapy for myself. I do meditations of different kinds. And swimming is a great way to practice process because I'm doing rhythmic breathing, I'm moving my whole body. There are lots of journaling, reflection, therapy, and lots of different ways to work on myself so that I can heal because I understand and respect that I was deeply traumatised when I was two. And that's not just going to go away. It takes work.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (43:20)

What are some of the feelings that people could look out for that could tell them, okay, I am responding to something beyond this moment for me. It's an intense fear of fear of, of, oh, what is it a fear of isolation, a fear of being alone, that feels like the same thing, but it's sort of not, you can feel isolated when you're not actually alone. And there are other things that we can be scared of or perhaps I don't know if some people may be suffered from someone who is angry when they were younger and then there's a bizarre anger when they know, hang on, it's not going to be useful to be angry, but it's almost like we're just absorbing for a moment how someone else was. What sorts of emotions do you think can come out from all of this?

Marilyn Cornelius (44:17)

Such a great question again. Sophia, you talked about.

It's a big one because usually fear is underlying any other emotions, and one of those is anger. So anger and rage. When you start to feel any extreme emotion, really, when you're extremely angry, when you're in a rage, that is a moment where you should notice, like, is my reaction matching what actually happened, or am I being triggered? When you're extremely frustrated, and you just want to smash something, know that frustration is about resisting reality. So something's happened and you're not able to accept it.

That is a time to notice, okay, what is going on around me? Another one is deep sadness and sorrow. Sometimes you'll watch a movie or something happens, and you just start bawling your eyes out. It's a time to notice, like, where is this coming from? And grief is a complex one because we can know grief can take many, many years, but so can trauma. It can take a long time. And then another one is anxiety, anxiety and then panic. These are big ones when you feel like you cannot handle it overwhelmed.

And if it happens in a situation where other people might think, well, this is a benign situation, or why are you overreacting? That's when it's important to pause and figure out, OK, what is going on for me internally? This is a snapshot from the past, and I've just been transported there. And how do I come back to the present? And that's when we start doing the, let's count five things that are blue in my room. And then we start doing different exercises to become more present.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (45:50)

This reminded me of something. You mentioned Yoda. Do you think there's something legitimately psychological, especially from your behavioural change background, about that old phrase Yoda said of how fear leads to anger and anger leads to hate? And the dark side, what do you think? Is that where we're all heading?

Marilyn Cornelius (45:54)

yes.

Well, because I'm such a weirdo, I have an answer for you. I've written a blog about this ages and ages ago about why I love the Transformers, why I love Star Wars, and why I love the Avatar.

Each of the three franchises has a thread in it, in its philosophy about energy. Whether it's Energon for the Autobots and Decepticons or the Force for Yoda and Darth Vader. Or there was also the Tree of Life with its beautiful illuminated energy in Avatar. So I do think there's genuine wisdom there where Yoda is showing you the progression of how you can go to the dark side. And the dark side is your shadow side. It's the shadow work that we all need to do. There's good and evil, there's a dichotomy, there's a duality, but really we both have both. We have a light side and a dark side. We have the force in us. And something else Yoda said was, Do or do not, there is no try. And that's where I weigh in, right? I'm the behavioural specialist. So you can, it's a fun phrase that Yoda says, do or do not, there is no try. But I think time is important. Attempts are important, but those attempts need to be behavioural too. You can also attempt to change your mindset. That's maybe not so much a behaviour, but it can be seen as a thought experiment or shifting the way you think, but I think attempts are important. I tried many times before I could swim a lap. I used to get puffed out, and then I realised I had to slow down a bit. At the moment I slowed down and relaxed in the water, I was able to swim laps. So, change is difficult.

Humans struggle with change, but I also say this in a lot of my talks, and when I facilitate changes everywhere, it's inside us; our red blood cells are changing every three to four months. They die, and they're, you know, we create them. We're breathing all the time, the air that comes into our bodies is always different, and the air that we breathe out is changed. It's altered, you know, every system in our body is built on change, and if you look at quantum physics, everything is changing all the time. It's a wave in a particle. There's a duality

everywhere. Nothing is stagnant and fixed. And so wanting things to be fixed is a delusion that humans are trapped in. And I think we need to embrace our own capacity for change by facing our fears. And I didn't, you know, I'm facing several phobias. One is the fear of drowning. The other one was with cockroaches.

I'm definitely afraid of them, and I started to work on my fear by talking to them. So I would say, please don't, you know, I don't want to kill you. Please stay over there. I'm going to run away now, or you know, try to figure out how to navigate the situation where I'm not screaming and I don't have to call someone to come and kill that being. But I can face my fear. You know, fear is hard. Change is hard.

Overcoming barriers is really difficult, but it's doable. We can do it, and I am living proof, if anything. You know, if I can swim, I think anyone can do anything because I've definitely been afraid of it for 38 years, and now I'm swimming daily, and it took me about four months to just change my life.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (49:35)

Was that swimming part of an identity shift? I'm wondering, were you not so athletic when you were younger and then embraced it?

Marilyn Cornelius (49:44)

I was athletic. was a terrible runner. I was not a sprinter, but I started doing long-distance running. I played netball. It was my favourite sport in the world.

And then, yeah, I took up cross-country running, and then, you know, I was always identified as a dancer. And so, since living in Fiji, I've taken up Zumba, but Zumba was really hard on my knees. And so, because of my knee injuries from that ball, which got reawakened, I had to find something that was low or low-impact. The only and the perfect option was swimming, but it was, you know, I had to face the fear. Now I feel my identity changing. I'm calling myself a swimmer. I used to have really long hair. I've cut it short because I

I have to wear a swim cap every day. And so I'm actually changing my life to morph now around swimming because swimming gives me a wonderful opportunity not only to exercise but to meditate.

And it's zero impact, so my body feels great, and I'm exceeding my fitness goals. So I was always doing exercise, but not like this, and now I feel that swimming is superior, and if I never do Zumba, if I can never dance because of my knee injuries, I won't be so heartbroken as I thought I was going to be. So the change in identity is possible.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (51:00)

It sounds like the identity happens when we do the things.

Marilyn Cornelius (51:05)

Yes, absolutely. And sometimes...

The identity happens, and then we do the things. So, for example, when I discovered the data on global greenhouse gas emissions, and I actually had a conversation with a mentor who told me the plight of calves who are taken away from their mother, from their mother cows, so that we can take the milk. And the compassion I felt for that calf, you know, the two things happened on the same day, you, the data I was discussing with him and then the story from India. I realised that I am a person who does not want to create that kind of torture and that kind of meanness, you know, to separate a child from its mother so we can steal the milk, you know. And so it was on the spot. It was like the clarity just came, and I realised, " I am not this person who supports this. And so my behaviour shifted immediately after. So in behaviour change, we look at the, you know, the theory that I study, it looks at reciprocity of three factors, three kinds of factors, personal factors, which is the way you think and your values, environmental factors, which are social and physical environment, and then behaviour itself. So behaviour can help you change behaviour. You do the things, and then you change. And you know, like with swimming, I faced it, I did it, and now I'm a swimmer. Or it could be a combination of those factors. It could be your identity, it could be, you know, these different factors are always working together. And so the more of these factors you can harness, the faster you can change your behaviour and the more sustainably. And this social cognitive theory. If someone wants to look it up,

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (52:34)

Amazing.

Marilyn Cornelius (52:37)

I'm

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (52:38)

For sure. I like to wind up these conversations with three relatively universal lessons and calls to action because I love the number three, and I hope that as a behavioural person, behavioural expert, you would know that people can learn a few things, but we're not giving them a long shopping list of things to do. So

The great three, what are three things you think that everybody should keep in mind and start doing more?

Marilyn Cornelius (53:11)

So a beautiful question, and yes, as storytellers and people wired for stories, we remember in threes, we remember better. So let's see, three things that I would say. Number one, start noticing. Start noticing yourself and your reactions. Number two, be compassionate with yourself. Number three, find a path that takes you to your authentic self and be relentless with it. Just follow that path of authenticity.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (53:38)

Amazing.

Marilyn Cornelius (53:38)

So the first one is noticing, is mindfulness. The second one is compassion for yourself. As you are more compassionate with yourself, you will be with others too. And then thirdly, and perhaps most importantly, but the first two really allow you to do this, which is to follow your own path. Figure out who you are and be that person.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (53:56)

Marilyn Cornelius, thank you so much for talking.

Marilyn Cornelius (54:00)

That means a lot coming from someone who's faced the same thing that I faced. Thank you for talking with me. Thank you for building your career out of talking, and may we be blessed as talkers.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (54:13)

For sure. It was great to have you on the show.

Marilyn Cornelius (54:17)

Thanks so

Summary

In this episode, Melanie Suzanne Wilson and Egita Gielen explore the profound connection between voice, music, and personal well-being. Egita shares her journey from a classically trained singer to a teacher who emphasises the healing power of simple sounds like humming. Melanie identifies the similarities between singing and public speaking. They discuss the importance of embracing one's voice, overcoming societal conditioning, and the role of breathing and relaxation in enhancing vocal performance. The conversation also touches on cultural influences on expression and the significance of being present in the moment during performances.

Keywords

voice, music, well-being, singing, relaxation, breathing, cultural influences, vocal performance, personal growth, mindfulness

Takeaways

• Almost everyone can sing; it's about finding your voice.

• Simple sounds like humming can be more healing than structured lessons.

• Breathing and relaxation are key to vocal performance.

• Cultural backgrounds influence how we express ourselves vocally.

• Being present in the moment enhances performance.

• Overcoming societal conditioning can free your voice.

• Consistency and practice are essential for vocal growth.

• Embrace your voice without judgment for personal well-being.

• Physical activities and nature can improve vocal health.

• Analyzing performances should focus on positives and improvements.

Title Options

• Finding Your Voice: The Healing Power of Music

• Embrace Your Voice: A Journey to Well-being

• The Art of Singing: Beyond Technique

• Cultural Influences on Vocal Expression

• Mindful Singing: Being Present in Performance

• Overcoming Vocal Barriers: A Path to Freedom

• The Role of Breathing in Vocal Mastery

• From Classical to Intuitive: A Singer's Journey

• The Intersection of Voice and Personal Growth

• Unlocking Vocal Potential Through Relaxation

Sound bites

Almost everyone can sing.

Simple sounds can heal.

Breathing is key to performance.

Cultural backgrounds shape expression.

Be present in the moment.

Free your voice from conditioning.

Consistency is key to growth.

Embrace your voice without judgment.

Nature improves vocal health.

Focus on the positives in performance.

Transcript

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (00:00)

Egita, welcome to the podcast.

Egita Gielen (00:02)

Thank you for having me. It's really pleasure to be here.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (00:06)

You have a background in singing, and you have seen how people can improve their sense of well-being by experiencing music. Would you like to talk about what you've seen with wellness and music?

Egita Gielen (00:25)

Yes, I think it's really good here to share a little bit of my own story. So I am a classically trained singer. I attended a conservatorium, got my degree, and went out into the real world by singing classical music, which is also really healing and powerful. And in the meantime, I also work as a singing teacher. So I work with other people who want to learn to sing.

And I realised that, you know, just doing exercises or singing your Aries and songs for a lot of people is not the answer. Or some it is, but for some it puts a very high entrance, like Berger, and they feel very limited. So in the last few years, I have really asked myself what exactly is music for me, what is also particularly singing and voice for me. And I have seen that sometimes making very simple sounds like humming or chanting or like even subconsciously, know, murmuring some kind of sound which comes out of you is much more healing and opens more doors for people to explore their voice and music than quote unquote following very classically build up singing lessons. And yeah, that has led me to more to this experimental part of my own practice myself as a singer, but also the way how I see how singing voice and ⁓ more intuitive sounds can help other people to basically heal their relationship with their own voice.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (02:16)

You can heal your relationship with your voice. One thing we can reassure people early on in this conversation is an answer to those who say that they think they can't sing. What do you say to those?

Egita Gielen (02:31)

Um, I truly, truly believe that almost everyone can sing. I'm not going to deny there is a very tiny percentage of the whole world population who we could name tone deaf people, and they will have difficulty to learn to use their voice. But most of the time.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (02:32)

Thank you.

Egita Gielen (02:52)

If you are an average person who uses the voice every single day by communicating with your family, with your friends, with your work colleagues, you already have the most important thing. You have two vocal folds inside of your throat. They are functioning. So you are able to learn to sing. What of course we need to remember is that most of us also have two legs. So it means that we can walk. We can maybe run.

But it doesn't mean that all of us are going to become professional athletes. And that's exactly the same also as the singing, just because we have it from the nature and we are able to make, in this case, speaking sounds. It's not going to make us ⁓ professional singers. There I agree. Not all of us will become such professionals. But I truly believe that everyone who is willing to try

is able to learn certain singing for their own pleasure. The thing is, like I said, healing your relationship with your own voice is hard work. It's not easy. There is a lot of confrontation usually coming up. And ⁓ yeah, it takes courage. It takes willingness. It takes ⁓ a wish to risk, ⁓ wish to be confronted by the sounds you make.

Also courage to figure out that maybe making sounds is not sounding as pretty as Madonna or Beyonce, but just getting something out of yourself. Then basically the magic starts to happen.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (04:36)

So it's about doing something not for perfection or commercial reasons, but finding the creativity and connecting with the instrument that we are all born with. It's really the one musical instrument that's internal.

Egita Gielen (04:52)

Yes, I also like I always when I work with people, that's one of the first things what I say. It's very easy. You know, you take a piano, you take a guitar, you take a flute, you make some kind of sounds like usually, you know, you pick a string, something sounds you hit on the keys, sound is coming out. Okay, maybe with the flute and woodwind or brass instruments is a little bit more complicated. You need to blow some air in, and sometimes the sound is not coming out. But still you are able to create something.

And the instrument is transpersonal, you know, it's something else. You pick it up, you hold it in your hands, and then you make a sound. But when we talk about the voice, I can't, I can't take my throat, like, yeah, I can grab my neck, but I can't get inside there. I can look at the pictures, how it's like, you know, in the books to see how it's built up. Yes, I can go to the ENT doctor and ask them, please put a camera. want to see my vocal folds.

So then I get, but like, can't like literally with my eyes, I can't look onto the instrument. I can't feel it. I can't touch it. And in the same time, when we look at our body, our whole body is involved in making sounds. It's not only like, yes, it is these two vocal folds.

But for example, even when we talk and we put the hand here on the chest, we can feel the tiny vibration, like your whole body is vibrating along when you are making sounds. If you put, like, sometimes, also fingers here onto the nose and make a simple sound, you will also feel that this bone is vibrating. So you already see how your... Yeah, like if you do...

Egita Gielen (06:34)

Yes.

Yeah. So you see, already, like your whole physical body is being involved in making sounds, and you are, we are usually not conscious about it. We are not thinking, ⁓ now I'm talking, and my chest vibrates. make humming sounds and suddenly there is a vibration everywhere here, but these are like bigger vibrations, which we can feel in the same time. It's actually your whole body, which is involved in making sound.

And then we arrive at the situation where it's not anymore an instrument, which I can take out of the corner, make a sound, something doesn't work. I put it back in the corner and say, you know, maybe the piano is not really good or, yeah, you know, no one tuned that guitar. That's why maybe it sounded shitty. Sorry for my language, but it's actually suddenly me. It's actually.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (07:24)

Click the button for explicit.

Egita Gielen (07:28)

I am making the sound, and if I do not like the sound, what I'm going to do is I am willing to work to improve it. Am I willing to admit that? Yeah, I do not sound like these top-level pop stars, but at the same time, simple humming calms me down. So what do I do with this realisation that it's?

Really, really me, not something what I can blame, but it's literally me making sounds. And how does it make me feel?

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (07:59)

Okay, I thought of a few questions that I'm so keen to ask you, and I'll explain why. So my context is that there's a reason I'm not a professional singer, because I just could not become that, but I got into speaking, and you talked about how we use our breath for the woodwind, and we're breathing and vibrating.

Egita Gielen (08:04)

Yes.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (08:25)

Either away when we're using our voice. And I'm wondering, I think you could teach some really crucial skills to people, whether they are singing or they are talking. Because of a couple of things, I hope that everybody can learn, and if you can tell us a few techniques from a singer's perspective, then that would be an honour. So firstly, one of the two, the first one is how to breathe properly.

As a singer, you probably learned there's a different way to breathe. And maybe unless you did a whole lot of yoga or something, people don't learn how to breathe. We don't know how to breathe. But the other thing I'm really wondering about is how to project your voice, because you said that we all have a voice that just is how it is, and what can we do with it? But some women in particular have a very quiet voice.

And I feel so grateful that I have a voice that's naturally loud. And I'm wondering, do you have a voice that's, I mean, you're on a microphone, so I'm not sure. Is your voice naturally extra projected, or did you have to work harder to project your voice?

Egita Gielen (09:27)

Actually, both questions are a little bit connected. I think when I look from nature, my voice is quite front forward. That's one of the qualities which I was lucky to have from the nature. And I particularly needed to work on creating more space around it, more roundness, that it's not only like an arrow going into everyone's face. ⁓

So that's if you ask about the projection and the breathing. This is a very controversial topic and ⁓ from each basically from each singer, each singing teacher, each voice practitioner, you will probably hear a different answer.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (10:04)

Why?

Egita Gielen (10:14)

When I, if you would ask me this five years ago, I would say, yes, there is one correct way of breathing. We all need to breathe like this. This is the best way. Let's go. Now, when people ask me this question, I start to get more also experimental, the same as with the sound, also with the breathing. We all breathe, right? As long as we are all alive, we are all breathing.

If there is someone who is not, very sorry, then like, you know, the conversation ends there. So from a nature, we already know how to breathe. The issue is that often when we are in our everyday life, stressors are coming on, and we are dealing with the so-called fight or flight response, which also influences our breathing.

So we forget this very natural way of letting air inside. For example, if you are the one who is fighting, we start to breathe very shallow. Like, gets very high. If you are one who are freezing, you are just stuck and you immediately feel how everything here in the chest gets tense. If it's fight.

Light, breeze, paw and paw. There is also the last one, the paw. And when they say that animals do this one, and they, yeah, let their belly, like I give up, I give up. say that there are no four stress responses, but basically one is where we are like stuck and other, all the other ones are when our breathing gets very high. So, this is the way when we forget how to let the air in naturally. So.

Egita Gielen (11:57)

I always say to my clients, ask yourself, are you in this like a stress response? And if you are, what can you change about it? And you will notice how, at that moment, your breathing pattern changes.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (12:12)

So are you saying?

Egita Gielen (12:12)

Yeah. And suddenly there is no anymore like, okay, this is the right way. And this is the not right way. Because the thing is, for example, if I would now say, okay, let's now all take a really deep breath, you know, like,

When you start to observe your body, you will notice that there is certain restrictions, like wherever it's in the sides of the ribs. Maybe for some people, they started notice that they bring their shoulders up. I need to take a deep breath. Some are like really expanding chest and there is a tension, but the moment when you start to notice tension somewhere, we can't anymore talk about like, you know, a calm, natural breath, which will be the best to create a good sound. So.

I would say work with your stress response. If you can notice which one it is and then ask yourself why, like what is my stressor? Why I'm in this state now? How can I reduce it? And you will immediately notice how your breathing pattern changes. Of course, there are also a lot of breathing exercises. Let's call them like this.

which will all help you to overall calm your parasympathetic nervous system. Because I think it's also connected to public speaking, that we want to at least appear calm, or we want to trick our mind that we are calm, like, you know, I'm safe. This performance, this presentation, this speaking engagement is not my tiger, and it's not going to eat me.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (13:33)

Yes.

That's important. Do you need to remind your singing students of that as well? The audience will not kill you. It's okay.

Egita Gielen (13:47)

Yeah, one of the things is, yeah.

Yes.

Yes, and it's also like you yourself are not going to kill because it's very often we are like we are thinking like I haven't learned it good enough. It doesn't sound how I want, but it already sounds better than yesterday. So you are already made that one tiny or half a percent further. So please do not kill yourself. Like this is it's just and part of life.

But I want to give us some like maybe exercises which can help. One of the really simple ones is just trying to breathe in, and when we are breathing out, we are making a long sound.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (14:33)

Is that because it slows it down?

Egita Gielen (14:35)

Yes.

And again, it's not about, do not try to like take as much air as possible because as I say, you create tension and it's much harder to calm yourself down. Then another one, which also really works with a parasympathetic nervous system is so-called box breathing, where we breathe in for four counts, we hold an air for four counts, we breathe out for four and we hold. So it's like...

In two three four hold two three four out two three four hold two three four, and like yeah, it's like a box square pattern, and it also with the counting and everything, it helps us to become more calmer, more relaxed, and probably you will also notice that your counting gets slower the longer you do it and then the first one, I said was the long sound as you can actually also do it with just humming at you like, because humming will extra let you be more calm. Yeah, here it's just like letting the first sound out, not thinking like, it high enough? Is it low enough? Is it the right pitch? There is no right pitch. When we are humming, it's just like, whatever is the first one coming out is actually the best one. So this is about the breathing.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (16:02)

So for that last one, so sorry, for that last humming, I'm wondering if part of the benefit is that you're not having a big sigh out of the mouth, but because you are doing that humming, you're only breathing through your nose, and so it's going to go more slowly.

Egita Gielen (16:24)

You can also breathe through your mouth if you want to hum. It's just it takes extra because when our mouth is open, we need to close the lips when we will arrive on the humming thing. But it will not change the way. Humming, like what this humming does extra is that first of all, it creates that vibration. When it's sss, it's just a sound. It's a non, like.

It's a sound, but it doesn't have like a, let's say, vibration. That's the right word vibrations. When we are adding a pitch and our body starts to respond more because, like I said, in the beginning, when you put your fingers here, you will notice that your nose starts to vibrate.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (17:09)

Even the audio is going to be hilarious. I love this.

Egita Gielen (17:12)

Yeah. So like it starts to vibrate your body and it also likes it, it wakes you up, and at the same time it calms you down because this like, you know, very continuous sound reminds us of something more ancient in ourselves. So like you immediately not only breathe like breathing calms your parasympathetic nervous system, but also this like very simple sound.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (17:26)

Vibration.

Egita Gielen (17:41)

It's like you can compare it to almost like a meditative state. It's like a small disclaimer here. It's just like, if you do it only once, you probably will not feel it. Like, yeah, it's really fun, you know, to put your fingers here. Yes, I feel the vibration. I feel the vibration here in the chest, but to like really start to feel it.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (17:56)

So by the way, I'll just add for one second, for those who are only listening, we are basically reaching our fingers across from the middle of the nose. It's kind of- do you call that the bridge?

Egita Gielen (18:10)

Yeah, like fingers on the sides of the nose. They can almost touch the bridge of the nose. But I would just invite everyone who only has a sound experience to also, yeah, try to touch your face. Maybe you will notice that your cheeks are also vibrating. Maybe it's your jaw, which creates a vibration. Touch your neck, touch your chest, like just feel how different sounds.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (18:10)

Yes.

Egita Gielen (18:35)

resonate within your own body. And so I will return back to what you asked before about that. You said that you have experience with females, women who have quieter voices. And when we arrive at the projection, I always work from two sides. One side is very technical. Like, yes, we need to get the calm breath because air is basic of every sound you are making as a human being. Doesn't matter spoken, sang, scream, literally everything. You can try to breathe out all the air and then say something, and you will notice that it doesn't work. If you don't have any air inside of your lungs, you can't make a sound. So first, we would need to work on your breathing to get a calm way of breathing to control, like with a ssss or mmmm, so that it's more fluent, that it flows. That's one thing. And then the second part actually will most of the time be a psychological part related to self-worth and self-image. It's very hard to go and pretend to be

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (19:47)

Wow.

Egita Gielen (19:54)

That you are confident and that your voice is carrying wherever you want, if on the inside you feel small, not worthy, perfectionistic. Yeah, you can add here any kind of words which are coming to your mind. Yes, you can fake it. You can work very hard on, like, trying to convince people, like, no, I am like this, you know, like you are not going to listen to me. But usually, what we didn't notice afterwards is that people didn't resonate with your message.

You do not feel great after such a performance, speaking engagement. You start to doubt yourself again. So it's like a circle which keeps happening because the moment when you're breathing is sorted out, you feel calm. And also you're working on your self-worth. It's just much more easier to let your voice out.

Yes, again, we can theoretically work on projecting exercises, imagining how the sound is speeding out of our mouth and like screaming, like, hey, hey, hey, to get it further up. But I believe if you are not working with your inner world, and also, I will touch on something else, how your voice sounds. It's just very hard to give this.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (21:06)

Thank you.

Egita Gielen (21:23)

Convincing performance, wherever you are singing or speaking. Because most of the time, also, and I think it's really relevant for females that we are often taught that we can't be loud. We need to be neat. know, like all the females are talking very, like very sweet, like be cute, be nice. And then we automatically think that

That's how we need to talk, you know? Like, the small voice. No one needs to talk like, Here I am, just a little bit. And I am very happy to see that there are just more and more females who also sometimes subconsciously are just claiming that I can be loud, I can be here, I can say what's in my mind, I can use my voice as part of my expression, and I don't need to stay small just because it's very easy for someone else.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (22:16)

Yes, you talk about being small or living

You talk about living small, and actually, a very, very impressive friend of mine months ago said that she'd been living small, and it was really startling to me, and I could visibly see the difference. And I think what you're identifying, this is really a revelation to me because

I seriously, I was around speakers for so long. And we were all led to believe that some women are just built with quiet voices. But now I'm realising that they are just talking the way they were conditioned to talk. But it sounds like what you're saying is part of what we need to do is just live big and be a bit larger than life and not apologise for it. Do you think that's a part of it? Just have a bigger existence.

Egita Gielen (23:14)

I think it's part of it. And I think it's also really important to ask yourself where your speaking patterns are coming from. Because that's, again, that's another layer. So one is a self-worse. all of us, we all have our family relatives where we have been born in, which will shape the way how we go around because as a small kids, know, we soak up everything. And when we see ⁓ different family roles, wherever they are traditional or non-traditional, we soak it up as the kids, and we take it on like, you know, I saw, I don't know, my grandmother talking like this, and my mom like this. So that's how I'm going to go. That's like a first thing. Then of course we grow older and we go out more into the society.

And we can see that, for example, Northern cultures, where I am part of, are much... I am Latvian, but I live in the Netherlands. So it's a bit a move. But yeah, like in Latvia, everyone is like, you know, just be quiet, don't talk too much.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (24:19)

Where are you?

Egita Gielen (24:32)

Basically, be silent, you know, that's like, that's how I was raised. And that also like influences the way how you are going around. And then when we look at more Southern cultures, like I will use as an example here from Europe, Italian people or Spanish people, they are just more expressive as a nation. So for them, it's much easier to go and like, here I am, here, I'm expressing myself the same, also like Mexicans, I don't know, they are just there.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (24:50)

Do find also, question, you find that people in those countries, are they, I know it's a stereotype, I'm checking, do they talk with their hands a bit more as well?

Egita Gielen (25:12)

I think it's related to also our surroundings. But as I said, voice is part of your body. Why would you not... Like, okay, if I only talk like this, yeah, it gets too confusing. But if there is a movement which comes naturally when I'm making a sound, why would I try to cut it off and make myself here like a statue? Because this one feels very unnatural, you know to try to be like completely not moving. Like I immediately feel, yeah, yeah. And I also, can't breathe anymore. Like, it's everything is starting to get so restricted. But then there is like natural movement. Why would we not use it? And here again, we need to look up. There will be people who will be more expressive. For someone else, it's just like, you know, being free and I don't know, letting your hands hang on the side.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (25:42)

And I can see your shoulders are hunched up so much.

Egita Gielen (26:07)

And they don't need it. They will find their expression in a different way. But it's just, it's still come back to, yeah, you know, being restricted, being tensed, being in one position, that's all the moment when we restrict our body, we restrict the voice.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (26:23)

So find your freedom and

So look after the voice, but you were saying relax. And the thing I wanted to compare that to, mentioned the box breath, the four up, hold for four and then down for four and then a hold and back again. That is also taught in yoga. And so I'll recommend that if someone is considering going to some sort of vocal coach,

But until they find that person, it's definitely possible to find people who can guide them in breathing and relaxation as a first step to improve the voice. And this is revolutionary because I'm curious if you had the experience where you grew up hearing about the techniques of how to perform, but we don't always hear about how relaxing can really improve our performance.

Egita Gielen (27:21)

I completely agree. And it comes back to that our physical body is instrument in this case. So we need to take care of it. ⁓ Wherever it's, I can personally recommend yoga. I love yoga myself. I have learned a lot from it. Also exactly from a perspective of relaxation.

not only always being in this like high performative, but really like letting go and being in peace with it. But overall, any kind of physical activities, which take care of your physical body, are going to influence the way how your voice sound because you can't, yeah, you can't expect,

Your instrument sounds good if you're not taking care of it. That would be the same if I throw my guitar in a corner, never change its strings. And then only thing what I do is like, ⁓ you know, you do not sound good instrument. Yeah. Maybe I need to do something about it to make it sound better. So yeah, all kind of breathing practices, any kind of physical exercises, even being outside, you know, outside between the trees in the fresh air and then letting that air come into yourself is already taking care of your voice.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (28:51)

It is, and the natural air, this is beyond going hippie, it's bigger than that. The trees, or let me know if you agree, being near the waves, getting the fresh ocean or sea air, any good air will cleanse and clear the system instead of perhaps being only under air conditioning or being in a stuffy room. So get out and just let yourself breathe properly for a bit, and it will make a difference. So if someone is about to get on stage for whatever purpose, it sounds like some of the things that someone can do as an early preparation step would be to get outside in some way before hopping on stage, whether it's a balcony, whatever is accessible and find a way to relax into the box breath. You can do that anywhere. You don't need extra space or resources to do that.

Egita Gielen (29:51)

Exactly. Like that's why also voice is so powerful. You always have it. You always have it with you, and only you are responsible for how it's going to be. And I completely agree. Go outside. Even if you think you can't, then do it extra. Like, there is this, I don't know who is an author of this quote, but ⁓

They're saying to spend 20 minutes a day out in nature, and if you are busy, then spend an hour.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (30:22)

NUTS

Egita Gielen (30:23)

I am not an author. I don't know who the author of this quote is, but I always think about it like, okay, if you are busy, then you actually need to do it more than just being outside.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (30:31)

It's true.

Look, I absolutely respect those who go to a gym. And I must say I have extra dependence on the yoga studio when perhaps there's very ghastly weather and I really don't want to be outside. However, there's something about being outside, and you have 24 hours in the day. So even if the day is extremely busy, we will

Create more value in the day if we take a moment to get outside.

We will create more value in our day, whatever we are doing, performing, or doing other work. If we're going to take that time, one hour out of the 24, we should be able to afford that one hour, whatever is happening.

Egita Gielen (31:21)

I would say even 15 minutes if it feels too big of a stretch and if you make it as a small daily habit like, now for 15 minutes I'm going, even if you walk around your block, know, probably you can see a small flower somewhere there even in the biggest metropoles, you know, trying to fight through the, all the asphalt and everything.

If you can just go out for 15 minutes and spend those 15 minutes on consciously letting the air in, consciously being in that place, letting yourself breathe and just know, observe your physical body. It's not going to, uh, not only going to, you know, be beneficial for your voice. It's overall beneficial for you as a human being. And as I say, 15 minutes, I.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (32:07)

Yes.

Egita Gielen (32:10)

I truly believe that even the most busiest people of us can find 15 minutes for conscious breath work outside.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (32:19)

Give you a very relatable Downsworth example, because I can tell you that this year, I did a bunch of presentations, but real life happens as well. And yesterday I went to an unfamiliar area, and I could feel the difference as I walked along a busy street, a busy road, there was so much traffic, and I could feel it. But then I found a tiny little park down the street and just had that moment, having a bit of quiet, getting the peace. So we do need to give ourselves peace, even if it's just for a moment and being near even a bunch of trees. It wasn't a big area. It was just somewhere. So even if you're in a city, if you, because we are going to be having listeners who might be in the suburbs, in the city, anywhere, find a spot anywhere, even if it's a block away for a moment.

And then it will just it will help you to mentally just pause. So even if you're mentally preparing for a song, a speech, something else, need that clarity, that, that focus of I'm doing this now, because I'm really curious, actually, it's, it's nice that you do think about the mindset beyond just the physical act of performing. I'm curious, have you ever needed to just be mindful and say, I'm not going to think about what's going on, what's going to happen in the future, I'm not going to worry about anything else right now, I'm just here for everybody, and I'm just doing this moment. And that's all that's happening, and then it just clears everything else away because you're just showing up in that moment.

Egita Gielen (33:56)

When I think about performing, yeah, again, wherever it's singing or public speaking, I think this is exactly the right approach, both via the music. If you are performing music, you are just there in that moment. Past doesn't exist. The future doesn't exist. Because in the tiniest second, when you start to think about the past, and in this case, it would be like, how did I sing this line? Oh, didn't my sentence come out good? Do people understand what I'm trying to give them? You lose it. And it's the same also if you look for the future, like, oh, the next song, next song, song, what I'm going to sing. Oh, what do I need to think there? And you are lost from that moment when you are singing the line and people are listening to you. Or if you are having a speaking engagement and you start to think, What's my next chapter? Like, like what's going to happen again? You have lost it. So in these moments, yeah, you need to, and again, it's easier said than done. And it takes, again, it takes practice. takes willingness to try it, to just be there, be in peace with what's happening. Being pieces that sound which are coming out of your mouth instead of wandering what was there and what's going to be. You just can't balance that. You need to be here, here in the middle.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (35:18)

Yes.

You need to get this line out, whatever it is in whatever form, you need to get this line out, and you can't, you can't distract yourself with anything else. So there's something beautifully mindful about performing in whatever sense, whatever it might be. It's so mindful. And I think that, go for it.

Egita Gielen (35:38)

Yes.

And also.

Yeah, and also, for example, if you decide to include, like, these very tiny humming sounds, it's also no use to think about what's going to be. It's like just for a few minutes, you concentrate on the vibration which you are creating with your own physical body. And that really, it also brings us back to here and now. ⁓ Like, I don't know, I will describe a very like everyday situation like you're running cleaning the house and I don't know like there are kids toys and there is a kitchen which needs to be cleaned and then maybe upstairs there's a pile of laundry I need to deal with but if you just stop for a moment and you hum for a second like everything kind of gets away and you get back to yourself for those whatever is it the seconds is it minutes how long you are able to be but you can't like you know death

Yeah, you can, but you will not experience the full benefits if you just leave a comment and you keep thinking like, hmm, my laundry is going upstairs. I need to clean the kitchen. Kids' toys are there. I need to answer those emails. It's like, yeah, you need to turn it out for a moment to be back to yourself.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (36:56)

That's where sometimes counting even how many seconds you're doing the humming or whatever exercise you might be doing. And my mental reaction when you mentioned laundry is that there's always going to be another pile of laundry. And maybe this is a bit universal. There's always more laundry, and the mentality that translates to performing. I can't believe I love that I get to just talk about performing here because we have so much parallel. So many people, pardon me, so many people, when they get off stage, whatever they did, they sit down, and then there's the inner dialogue, the I should have done this, I should have done that. And sure, look, sometimes big mistakes happen, but chances are it wasn't the entire 100 % of the show that was completely messed up. So a little glitch or a hiccup could happen here or there, but even though there's the subjectivity. I could have done this part a bit more seriously. I could have done this part a bit more fun. And there's always something you could have done differently. So do you find that your students or anyone might get a bit caught up in the inner dialogue and you need to just let it go and accept yourself? Be free.

Egita Gielen (38:15)

yes and no. ⁓

The moment when we are going to repeat something, wherever it's a performance, speaking engagement, again, the same thing, we need to have that moment of analyzing it. I never recommend doing it immediately after you have stepped off the stage. I think the best in that situation is to try to live in that moment. Like, you you were just on the stage.

You were in front of other people or even if your engagement is online, you know, hopefully there is someone behind the screen, but like enjoy it. It's a, it's again, it's, it needs to be a positive stressor, right? Just, just be, yeah, just be there. Enjoy it. I did it, you know, and,

Egita Gielen (39:06)

Then, of course, there needs to come the moment where you need to analyse what exactly you did because ⁓ we are as human beings, we are always evolving. It's not that there is never an idealistic singing performance. There is never idealistic speaking engagement. Yes, maybe for someone who listens, they think like, my God, this is like the best which I ever have heard.

But for ourselves, we are always evolving. But my approach to this is, ⁓ and my students sometimes really dislike it when we do it this way. Say, OK, name me at least three things that went well. And they're like, but I made it. I'm like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, not what went wrong. Please name me three things which went really well. What are you proud of?

I don't know, try to dig them out. Look for them. I'm sure they are there. And only when we have acknowledged what has gone well, then we look on what we can improve for the next time. Not what was the but what can I improve? Do I need to improve my music learning? Do I need to improve my stage presence? But again, with an idea of improving instead of saying like,

Yeah, but I made a mistake there.

Yeah, okay, great, but what are you going to do about it?

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (40:29)

Yes.

Exactly. What are you going to do about it? I am curious if you agree that there are some things that are a bit more objective. So

Get the pitch right and don't turn your back to the audience too much, things like that. I mean, there are some things we just shouldn't do. However, it's partly about not

Guilting ourselves is feeling shame, and we need to be empowered to say, okay, every single performance will be different in some way. Maybe I took a bit too much of a gasp when I should have just been breathing more relaxed. Anything could have happened in a moment. So work on the things you need to work on. And you mentioned bringing attention to what went well. I love that you mentioned that, because the way that I learned to evaluate is focus on something that went well, and then a couple of things to change, and then focus again on what went well. And it's partly to encourage yourself, but also if something is good, keep doing it. And if you don't know that maybe something new was done in a performance, and if you don't realise, this was good, you might not know to do it again.

Egita Gielen (41:46)

Yeah, exactly. Like if we do not acknowledge what we are already able to do, then we kind of, yeah, we don't know that we can do it. And sometimes we just need these tiny reminders. And also these things, you know, what went well for each one of us will be very different. For someone, it will be just, you know, getting on stage. Like that's already like, it went well, you know, I took the courage, I stepped on there. I was there like,

And then there will be someone else who is maybe busy with their voice already for much longer time. there are things what they like for them, it even doesn't occur that stepping on a stage can be something what goes well. They're like, here I am, I go. And that's again, it's like, it's so different for each one of us as a human being where we are. Yeah, what you say is also important, not to guilt us.

Because I truly believe when we are in the guilt, like we are feeling guilty about something, we unconsciously start to punish ourselves. Because our mind thinks like, you know, when we look at all the laws and everything, that, know, guilty is supposed to be punished. And we are kind of punishing ourselves. And most of the time we are doing it unconsciously and in a nonlinear way. It's not like I...

I now said like something wrong and I don't know, I go and I, no idea, take my chocolate bar away for today. But it usually works a little bit in a different way. Like I feel guilty about something. And then at one moment I punish myself by sabotaging something completely else. And very often we don't see that direct correlation.

but it's just how our mind works because we think I now deserve punishment. So, into the feelings of guilt, not good for you. Again, like as just a human being.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (43:44)

Yes.

You need the pride, and that pride will translate into a performance. It goes back to if we feel the shame, then we could end up living small because we feel ashamed. We could be hunching a bit more or at least we could be just putting less energy in, and it could be just a bit retreated. But I think when we take pride in saying I'm giving this a go, then

Perhaps your voice even grows, and you can expand. So it's a form of confidence to say, Okay, I will give this everything I have. Do you think so?

Egita Gielen (44:25)

Yes, but it's also, I just want to ask you question. How long have you been doing this one, like speaking?

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (44:32)

Oh, a long, long time. I grew up with it, but I really started basically in the year after high school. I, aside from a few years off, aside from a couple of years off, I was doing this basically in the last decade and a half. So, a while.

Egita Gielen (44:53)

Right? And you see, it's like, it's a really like, when we look at it at hindsight, we see that it's a really long time period where you have been busy with this one thing. And I'm quite sure that you are also still looking at how you can bring it to the next level. And, it comes back to it's not trying once. It's not trying twice. It's sometimes even not trying 10 times, sometimes waking up every single day and trying again. So also certain persistence is needed to be able, like what I said in beginning, persistence, courage, willingness to work, to do the work, however it looks for you, is the one which then brings you further, but we can't like, we can't expect that. Yeah, if someone today tries, okay. I did five times box breathing. did three times. I hummed my sound. Okay. At the moment, I feel super calm. I'm just running, and then everything crumbles. You don't understand what happened. That's also it's experience. You take it in. Probably there was something good in it as well. Yeah, you did the.

Preparation before you did exercises, you worked on calming your nervous system and that's what you take and you try it again and again till you suddenly realize that so many years have passed and yes, there is this improvement which you cannot see in the that moment when you are there but we can't expect that just by doing it once we will have it. With voice, it doesn't work that way, unfortunately.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (46:37)

It's true. I think that there's a unique evolution that happens over the years, but in my personal experience, and I'm keen to hear what it was like when you got started with Eurovoice. So for me, I, of course, I found such a relief when I started speaking more because I didn't really, I didn't really thrive singing so much, but with speaking,

Initially, I was a bit flappy and a bit overexcited, things like that. And it was almost like this heightened fight or flight. And I didn't have any stressful thoughts, but it was just some sort of fight or flight. But I settled down. Basically, it took months, and even after a couple of years of focusing on other responsibilities and not presenting, when I got back into it, it was only just a few months.

But I did need those few months of consistency, and even with the podcast, I can tell you, I had only done my very first podcast episode in January, and then I wasn't thinking about doing one, but now you are, I think, the 30th conversation of the podcast. And there's something very freeing, and it's the consistency. Even, I hope everybody will get on a stage because it connects you with people, but also.

It's great to have online conversations as well to reach more people these days. And just getting consistent, even with that. Just my point is just keep at it for a while and let it be fun. One of my top tips that I try to get across is like what you said before about how it won't kill you. It helps to take it a step further and let it be in a professional and highly skilled way. Let it be.

Egita Gielen (48:15)

Yes.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (48:27)

fun because then the listeners will enjoy that. Do you think so?

Egita Gielen (48:31)

Yes, yes for sure. And yeah, you asked me about how it was when I started. I started very young. My parents brought me to the music school when I was, if I'm not mistaken, eight years old. And it's partly because Latvia often goes into the world with the slogan country that sings.

And if you look up, you will find a lot of choirs, especially since choir singing is very popular in Latvia. And my parents thought, it's a great way to make our daughter do something. So let's send her to the music school. I really wanted to play piano or a Latvian national instrument, but we didn't have a piano at that time at home.

And my parents didn't want to invest in instrument at that moment. So they said, no, you're going to the choir class. You just use your voice. That's it. And basically, since that moment, I really fell in love with it. There is a funny story. My mom says that, ⁓ I wasn't able to sing when they brought me to the music school. She said that she would always be ashamed when I was singing something, and she was really shocked when my teacher said, Okay, are you coming to the Christmas concert? Because Egitte is going to sing a solo. And my mom was like, My God, it's not that like they are going to embarrass my child, but what's wrong with those teachers? What are they thinking? She cannot sing, but okay, everything went well. And for me, it was quite clear that I really just want to continue singing quite early on.

And 30 years later, I am still doing the same thing. And yeah. Yeah.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (50:16)

question about that.

It sounds like the family had this fear of what if you feel embarrassed? What if something goes wrong? And it's like they, in a caring, loving way, they felt nervous for you instead of taking the leap. There's, there's sort of a nervousness when I can only imagine what it's like for the above generations when they watch someone just publicly doing something, and this is happening, and they can't do much about it.

Egita Gielen (50:47)

Yeah, yeah, it's like I heard it only later. I didn't know it when I was a child. My mom never said it to me when I was a child. She told me only later, when it was quite clear that this is the path I'm taking, I am staying with music. I am staying with the singing but yeah that you know all these years was a first of all like, as a child, you know, taking lessons, being in music school, then deciding to really do it professionally. And it's again, it's, it's weekly lessons, not one lesson, several lessons a week, constant also self-work on your own voice. Even after finishing the conservatorium, a lot of experimentation has led me to this point. So it's again, like you say, also for you, it's not an overnight success by doing three exercises.

It's constantly being there, constantly working, constantly evolving and looking for that next step in seeing, okay, what else, what else I can add? How else I can experience my voice? And yeah, also allowing yourself to change perspective about, yeah, in my case, my voice, my, both my singing voice, my speaking voice.

It's a, it's very different. Like when I look back at how it was when, yeah, first of all, when you were a child, that's very different, but also overall, later, like through my teenage years, to my twenties, going into thirties, it's, it's constantly changing and being open to the changes, acknowledging them and then seeing, okay, what do I do with it? And how I am okay with, with how it is at the moment.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (52:28)

Yes. It doesn't happen overnight. And you started so young. I remember when I was in my mid twenties and doing more and just scaling up a little bit, but I'd been doing this for nearly half a decade, but people don't think about that. But for you, you'd been doing that for so much of your childhood. I think I'm running out of time a bit, but I'm really keen to wind up by asking.

What should we say to the people who have not been using their voices as much, or if an individual has not been using their voice in this kind of way for their whole life, not raised on vocals, then what is the reassurance beyond it's great that they showed up a bit.

Can we reassure them that they can grow and five or 10 years from now they can be in the same mindset we are in.

Egita Gielen (53:23)

I would say first take a breath, just breathe. Then, when you are, when you have taken a few breaths, then just make a sound. Don't think about if it's beautiful, ugly, loud, soft, doesn't matter. Just make a sound. So, and it can even be a spoken word because that's also a sound to just give yourself and reassurance your voice functions.

You have a voice; it is there. Next, what you are going to do with it is all in your own hands. As I say, again, start with just breathing, start with making some sounds. For a lot of us, that will be more than enough, you know, just to find, okay, yeah, I can hum along the radio when no one hears me, like, you know, yes, also sing in a shower.

That's completely fine. Just see what comes out of you. And then if you feel that urge, but there is something more, then start to look for the next steps. Like wherever it's working on your physical body, looking for someone who can guide you through the process, finding like-minded people who think about voice.

speaking, making sounds in a similar way. Trust me, when you will then in five years look back at that first step of that first breath, you will see like a really long and beautiful road behind you which you have walked.

Keywords

Thrive Collective, empowerment, retreats, wellness, self-discovery, yoga, nutrition, community, personal growth, mental health

Takeaways

We are meant to thrive, not just survive.

Empowerment comes from self-love and compassion.

Retreats provide space for self-reflection and clarity.

Yoga helps clear the mind and connect with the body.

Nutrition impacts mental health significantly.

Balance in diet includes enjoying treats without guilt.

Community is essential for personal growth and connection.

Travelling allows for new perspectives and connections.

Showing up is more than half the battle in achieving goals.

Detachment from outcomes can lead to greater success.

Summary

In this conversation, Becca Eisenberg, founder of Thrive Collective, shares her journey of empowerment and self-discovery through retreats, yoga, and nutrition. She emphasises the importance of self-love, community, and the healing power of travel. The discussion explores how retreats provide clarity and connection, the impact of nutrition on mental health, and the significance of showing up in life. Becca also highlights the need for balance in diet and the importance of detaching from outcomes to achieve success.

Titles

Thrive Collective: A Journey to Empowerment

Finding Clarity Through Retreats

Sound bites

"We were meant to thrive, not just survive."

"Showing up is more than half the battle."

"The journey of self-discovery is ongoing."

Chapters

00:00 Introduction to Thrive Collective and Empowerment

02:45 The Journey of Self-Love and Empowerment

06:07 The Importance of Retreats for Clarity and Reflection

09:00 Myth Busting: Yoga and Wellness

11:49 Nutrition and Its Impact on Mental Health

14:55 Finding Balance: Treats and Intuitive Eating

17:44 Cultural Perspectives on Food and Wellness

20:35 The Ripple Effect of Wellness on Life

23:47 The Transformative Power of Retreats

26:38 Yoga as a Tool for Mindfulness and Self-Discovery

27:37 The Physical Benefits of Yoga

29:14 Connecting Mind and Body Through Yoga

31:52 The Healing Power of Yoga

33:11 Showing Up: The Key to Progress

34:13 Navigating Fear and Embracing Growth

36:34 Finding Purpose in the Journey

39:06 The Law of Attraction and Detachment

40:43 Creating Opportunities and Community

44:04 Collaborating for Collective Growth

Entire Episode Transcript

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This transcript was edited with the removal of most filler words for readability.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (00:00)

Bekah, hello, welcome to the podcast.

Becca Eisenberg (00:04)

Thank you so much for having me, Melanie. It's such a pleasure to be here.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (00:08)

It is such a privilege. We're talking about what you do for work, and you do so much. It's an inspiration, all of it. So let's start with what you do.

Becca Eisenberg (00:19)

Yes, so I am the founder of a retreat company called Thrive Collective. And I love that name because I really do believe that we as human beings and as souls that chose to be here, we're not just meant to like survive this life and white-knuckle this life. We were meant to thrive and really be living in our joy and inspiration. So, the Thrive Collective is what I came up with, and I am a retreat host.

So what I do is I partner with different teachers in the most incredible sacred locations of the world. Most of them are different each time, and we host retreats. I think all different types of modalities and healing, everything from yoga to nutrition workshops, I'm actually leading a retreat next month in Costa Rica with a dating coach and hypnotist.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (01:18)

Who is it?

Becca Eisenberg (01:20)

Her name is Shana Richardson. She's absolutely incredible. I can tell you a little bit, but you know, the short of it is I went through a horrifying breakup and actually started working with her as a private client. And actually, this breakup, while extremely painful, was like my biggest breakthrough and actually led me to post-retreats. But I started working with her, and this woman is amazing. like, you know, she coaches clients on like, yes, helping the woman get the partner, but it's so much more than that. She really teaches you how to empower yourself and, like, create a life that you're so lit up by that you just magnetise everything, right? Like, so that's what we're gonna be doing.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (02:05)

So curious. Let's learn right now because you learned from this person, and we all need to know frankly, so many people had breakups after the pandemic or in the last while in these economic times. Maybe we would have had breakups anyway, but the various stresses don't help. So, but then the empowerment afterwards, that is really crucial, especially for women in particular to own our empowerment. And it sounds like such a greeting card, you need to really, what did empowerment mean to you?

Becca Eisenberg (02:40)

I want to go back to that because you make such good points. It's also like, you know, you consider like where we're at when we're in stress, we might not be operating from like our like highest selves, we call it right. And therefore we wouldn't because we attract what we are. So, therefore, at that, you know, operation of kind of stress and kind of from fear and kind of from lack, which is totally normal after a breakup or a trauma or anything, you're not actually going to attract the soulmate that is a match for your highest self, right? So it's like, have to learn, like to your point, like to become empowered, to love ourselves, to be so gentle with ourselves, to give ourselves so much grace and compassion. And from there, we can attract a match. I mean, empowerment to me, and it's something that I've personally worked on, is like just really, yeah, it's like being so loving with myself. I am like a recovering perfectionist who also really has learned to tie my worth to my achievements. If I do something perfectly, if I look a certain way, I mean, like that's what society tells you to do. And as women, I think it's even an added layer, but just like cherishing myself for existing and buying myself a chocolate chip cookie, not because it's a treat, not because I deserve it. I mean, yeah, because I deserve it. Just because I exist. Just because I love myself, and I want to give myself a treat. So I think empowerment is that. It's kind of like removing the ties from, like, I am worthy and deserving because I am successful in my business. And really, it comes from within you, right?

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (04:44)

Yes. And we want to be successful in business. It's better than being not successful. However, we are still valuable human beings regardless. And it sounds like part of what you reminded yourself of is that we need to value our humanity and then also become the type of person that we want to meet.

Becca Eisenberg (04:50)

Exactly, exactly. And also that at the end of the day, like, everything comes from within you, you know, for a long time, I would reach outside of myself for validation and for worth and for you know, and with like social media culture, it's really, it's really difficult. It's easy to do that. It's easy to compare yourself to other people. And like, you know, try to try to get that validation from outside, but it's it doesn't work long term. So I really believe that we actually have to kind of get rid of the noise and all the external kind of BS and go within to find our answers because I believe that all of us have the answers within us. And that's one reason why I created retreats, because when you step away from your daily life and you're immersing yourself in a beautiful, different culture and a wonderful community of like-minded people, and you're just pouring love and caring to yourself, you really reconnect with you. And from there, from that place, you feel full and you can, you know, get a lot of clarity and yeah, it's amazing.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (06:22)

Do you think part of the clarity on a retreat is that you're not absorbing the views, the preferences of the people who know you, and you have space to just ask what is there beyond what our current circle demands?

Becca Eisenberg (06:42)

I think yes, I think yes, that's huge. I think also, in addition to just slowing down and giving ourselves space. When I, so I've moved to Paris, and I moved from New York City. And when I was in New York City, my entire day and night was scheduled. It was like meeting to meeting, right? And in that rat race, whatever you want to call it.

There's no time to reflect on how I feel. I mean, like, even just connecting with our bodies and saying Does this feel right to me? You know, like so, I think I think your point is spot-on, and it's like giving ourselves space and time to kind of sit and reflect on our lives. Do we like this? Does this you know person serve me?

Do I maybe want to do something different in my career? What does that look like? I mean, when I went on my first yoga retreat, and it was a three-night yoga retreat, and also I had a lot of biases before I was like, yoga retreat's not for me, you know, but I'm so happy I went. I don't know, I think I had this idea, and maybe it was because of the media of what a yoga retreat was like, you know, it's for like vegans and hippies and like, you know, the people that have done 200-hour yoga training, like I'm not a, I'm not a yogi. I'm, I was like a gym girl, you know, but it was all totally wrong. And I remember so specifically, there's this one moment that stands out on the third day. I went to the beach. We were, you know, doing movement and just like meeting the most incredible women and so supported and eating beautiful plant-based foods and just like, you know, it was in Mexico, the sun and the sea and sunset swims. And I went to the beach by myself with a little journal, and I sat down, and I had a lot of space, and I literally wrote a letter to myself, my present self, from my future self. Dear Becca.

I love you so much. So grateful for you. This is what you need to do to achieve your dreams. And I literally wrote out like the steps that I then took to create this retreat company, which is like absolutely lighting my heart on fire. But it was so crazy. It was like, I think it was the space to be able to like, you know, just be like, my God, like these are the answers. I'm like, literally wrote step one.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (09:28)

The answers came to you.

And I wanted to really reflect on something that you said, the myth-busting. Now, I became a vegan in 2019, and you mentioned the hippies as well. What have learned, because I'm also very mainstream, you're not offending anybody. The thing is, I can't, that's so good.

Becca Eisenberg (09:52)

I'm a hippie now, thinking about being a vegan.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (09:56)

And you're also from the marketing world. I feel like we can end up very proper, a bit woo-woo at the same time. And I think the reason why that's so appealing to us ambitious types is because no one is telling you to hold a sign campaigning for anything. Having more leaves in your meal will help you have the brown.

Becca Eisenberg (10:19)

Also, such a freak about gut health. I mean, you know this, Melanie. Your brain and your gut are always communicating. I actually, a while back, I saw an herbalist. His name is Hector. He's an absolutely incredible human being. He's based in New York. And I remember that when I started applying what he was telling me, which was what you said, more leaves, more seeds, more nuts, more plants in my diet, my mental health improved.

Like drastically, my bloating went down, like my whole like shape of my body changed too. Not that that's the most important thing, but it was incredible. It's incredible.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (10:50)

Yes.

It shows that you're healthy. We're not looking like Barbie here. It's that we're healthy.

Becca Eisenberg (11:04)

No, we're healthy. And also all the different, like, there are so many different, like, microbes in your system that want all of these different leaves and nutrients. And when you don't eat enough plants, you're robbing them, you know? Like, yeah, so I'm with, I'm totally with you.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (11:24)

Totally. It shifts your mindset, and seriously, it will make you so much more attractive to your career and the world. It's wild. It's great to see that it clears your mind. I'll let you know, Becca, that I dropped 20 kilos by just switching to whole plants. 20 kilos.

Becca Eisenberg (11:49)

So wild.

I mean, that's, that's insane. It's also like, everybody's different. Like I, I actually do like really enjoy meat and like fish, and you know, eat like, you know, everybody's different, but when you start listening to your body and giving it what it wants, and for you, it sounds like this is the perfect diet, your body responds. You drop, you drop excess weight, you drop the bloat, you feel clearer and you know, like,

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (12:19)

Yes. And it becomes your normal. So I think the one thing everybody should agree on is to just eat real food at a minimum. Real food.

Becca Eisenberg (12:19)

Yeah, that's amazing. Yeah.

Yes.

I will say one thing, though, just like a fun little devil's advocate. I got a little bit too crazy on the, you know, diet culture. I mean, I've been, actually, I was pretty heavy growing up, and it kind of messed me up a little bit. And in high school, you know, I dropped a lot of weight. I got the braces off, and all of a sudden, the world opened up to me and

I was getting attention from different, you know, it was like everything was easier, and it kind of went, oh, I get it now. So be beautiful in order to be thin and beautiful in order to have an easier life. So from like, you know, I want to say 15 to like maybe my late twenties, early thirties, I was like, okay, this is me. This needs to be a priority. And so I got very into like tracking my macros, weighing things on the food scale, being very almost like over, over obsessive about it. And one thing that has been so beautiful about this transition to Europe, moved to France, I moved, I moved in, my gosh, beginning of September, I have completely like, cut, cut all of that. I'm not tracking anything. I'm like really intuitively listening to my body, which

Before I was terrified of, because, Melanie, I was like, I have this limiting belief that like, okay, if I don't control every little aspect, like I'm gonna be, you I'm gonna blow up, I'm gonna gain 50 pounds, whatever. And it's not true. So the other day, I just wanna like celebrate myself here in your presence. The other day, I was at the Boulangerie getting a baguette, and I was like, 'These chocolate chip cookies look really good.' And I got a chocolate chip cookie.

And I had it at noon or whatever, right before lunch, and I totally celebrated it. And I would have never done that before in my old New York control life. But here, it's like, so for most people, yes, eating whole foods, and even for me, eating whole foods is gonna be like 80 % of the time you wanna do that. But it's also important to have the yummy thing. Eat the treat, make it, you know, not like a shame thing. And so anyway, it was a very small act, but a big breakthrough.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (14:43)

Yes.

I see where you're coming from. I didn't measure things a lot.

But although I wasn't measuring things, I went to the extreme, as in I never ate fries ever for a while. And there's a point where I think even at the start of this year, I was bragging in a podcast that I was turning down fries, and it's good that I'm not having a plate of fries, but the extreme is eventually you'll be somewhere on a trip, whatever is happening, and that's all there is. I mean, life will happen eventually. And if you're saying, okay, I'm still not going to do it. I mean, how far are we going to take this? You know, you just have to be in the world.

Becca Eisenberg (15:36)

I'm picturing you with all the fries. Like I'm picturing you like in a restaurant. They're like, I'm sorry, ma'am. We only have fries.

But it's true, it's like we, it's really important to like not restrict and like, yes, like that doesn't mean don't be healthy, of course, like, but it's really important and coming from a place of like over restricting, which I did in New York City for so many years and just like in the States for so many years and coming here where it's like, it's not really a thing to have like this much protein at every meal, you know, I'm like,

Yeah, so I'm like, I'm doing what I can, and I'm feeling really good, and I fit in all of my jeans. like, crazy, you know.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (16:20)

I wish everybody could see if anyone is listening to the audio, you had the most relieved look on your face just then.

Becca Eisenberg (16:26)

And I did eat fries two nights ago. They were amazing.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (16:32)

You know what, I love sharing with people because if I'm having a treat, a treat fries, I shared with mates recently, and I had seriously four fries and I was okay. That's all I wanted.

Becca Eisenberg (16:43)

I'm so proud of you, Melanie. I'm really proud. And how were the fries? We all want to know.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (16:48)

It was fine. You need decent fries if you're going to do it. But I think I'm starting to understand why the Americans go so far in that direction. Maybe I'm just speculating here, but for a long time, the plates and the portions have been larger. So I went to Disneyland when I was what, 10, something like that, around that age. And my understanding was that your smallest McDonald's meal was the size of our mid-sized one. Everything was just one size up. So it sounds like you really do get more food over there, but then you're getting more calories. And it's still McDonald's as well, which is an issue.

Becca Eisenberg (17:23)

Yeah.

Yeah, yes. Yeah, that is true. That is true. I hate to be the person that you generalise all Americans from. But yeah, yeah, portion sizes are much bigger. I even in terms of like desserts, I'm noticing like the dessert in France.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (17:44)

No, no, no, I...

Really?

Becca Eisenberg (17:57)

versus the desserts in New York, when you order like a slice of cake or something, it's probably like half, probably like half the size, which is really interesting. think it's like, I think America, you know, there's this like notion that like you wanna get more for your money. And like, that's not always the best way to do things, right? In my opinion, I'm learning this now, I wanna get the most value for my money, not the most like excess, right? But yeah, people are different. I think people see more substance as more value often.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (18:40)

Perhaps more calories as well, because I found that if I'm getting a big pile of roasted cauliflower that didn't have too much oil on it, I don't know if that's going to make me fat.

Becca Eisenberg (18:52)

Yeah, yeah.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (18:55)

But it's funny because we've ended up just talking about food so much, and it is really important. But, but I mean, I just, I'm amazed by how many things aligned and I just, I know you're focusing on your retreats, but it's worth acknowledging that you work in corporate marketing. I did work in corporate marketing even a couple of years ago. I kind of miss it, and I'll still do that a bit, but you're doing all this wellness stuff. And I feel like we have all these parallels.

Do you find that dedicating yourself to the wellness space is helping you to thrive more everywhere else?

Becca Eisenberg (19:36)

Yeah. I mean, like, first of all, like, I can't, I can't turn away from wellness anymore. I can't turn away from like my own healing journey anymore. It's like, I've seen, I've seen the sign, you know, it's the only option is to like move towards it. And I've always been so passionate about my old, my own wellness. I have always loved personal development and growth, and like learning about why, why do I do this, this specific pattern, and where does it lead me? And how could I, maybe, make some changes? I mean, excuse me, my real goal is to like, what is the shortest distance to more love, joy, inspiration, and just like living a life of like, just lit up lit up ness. That's not a word, but you get it, you know? And I lit up, light, joy, inspiration, passion, I want to live like passion on fire. Like that is how I want to live every day in inspiration. That is what I want. And I find that the answer, or rather the path to get there, is healing, healing yourself and feeling well and feeling happy. mean, just like take an example when you're

When you're in a bad mood and you're looking down and you're walking the street and you're grumbling and whatever, you notice that not a lot of beautiful opportunities happen. Or maybe you have a little scuffle with someone, maybe you bump into someone, and it's like, the world, everybody sucks. It's like what you focus on expands. Or this just happened to me yesterday. I was like, I don't know, walking along and.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (21:13)

Yes.

Becca Eisenberg (21:22)

Looking around, I saw one beautiful building that I'd never seen before on a street I always walked by. I mean, Paris is pretty beautiful and romantic, so it's hard not to miss. And then I was looking up, and I was smiling at this church, and I looked down, and there was a woman walking towards me, and she acknowledged my smile, and we just smiled so brightly at each other. It was just a beautiful, beautiful moment. And I felt like it kept contributing to like...

And then I got a text from my friend that I was thinking about, I miss you so much. You know, was like, that's the way I want to live. So focusing on feeling well and happy, I think, is the answer. And when you're feeling well and happy, it ripples out to everything that you touch and everyone that you touch, I believe. And then, yeah, so the short, the long and the short answer is yes. I absolutely believe that focusing on wellness helps everything else. But what I'm most passionate about, and yes, Melanie and I talked about my marketing company also, which I'm still doing, and I do PR as well. But the thing that's really lighting my heart on fire is this retreat company because I went on a retreat at a very dark point in my life, and I just found so much healing and transformation and creating more space in the world for I have two retreats on that are women only, I'll start to do co-ed pretty soon. But for now, it's like creating space for women to come and feel safe to be themselves and show up authentically, so they can then share their gifts and just like creating more spaces for transformation and shifting, but in a fun way, with travel and excursions and adventure that feels so important to me.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (23:19)

It sounds like a sense of awe comes into it because you're going to places that I can only right now imagine, and you're having gratitude for how good the world is.

Becca Eisenberg (23:32)

And how beautiful the world is, and how beautiful different cultures are. I mean, like, I think there's also nothing better than travelling far, far away from home and meeting someone who really sees you. And you're like, my gosh, like we're all just like in this together. Like we're all just like beautiful human beings that are like seeking happy lives. It's really something special.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (23:57)

Yes. And I think more people should go on retreats because that connection with people from anywhere, I get that feeling with the podcast, but we can only simulate that so much from a distance, but to just relate to it as much as I can, it's an amazing feeling when you talk to someone who's in a totally different part of the world and we have the same things going on essentially. I mean, you said that you came to retreats and yoga healing after a split. And I feel like, hang on, how many of us are having parallel lives? Honestly, and yoga, I wanted to bust the myth about yoga. And I've done this in other episodes. Look, I'm not a yoga teacher either. And that's the thing. We can comment on our personal experience with it, our lived experience, and…

Becca Eisenberg (24:40)

Do it.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (24:49)

I assumed I had to be flexible. thought that if I had an injury, I couldn't do it, but anyone can do it. And it really does clear your mind. So what have you seen with that and the other modalities that you have in your retreat for how the women are shifting their mindsets?

Becca Eisenberg (25:09)

My gosh, such a good question. Also, like, I'm not a yogi. There was a period of time where I did yoga a lot, and I was like, Wow, I get it. I really get it. Because the whole thing with yoga is it's almost like a meditation where you tire your body out and you're so present and you're thinking about your movements so much and focusing on your breath that you're really giving your mind a break. And then, someone told me that kind of like shifted my whole mentality on yoga, but someone told me that the most important part of yoga is Shavasana. So you tire your body out and you're like trying to, you know, clear your mind and focus on the present moment. And then at the end, in Shavasana, you just completely let things go. And that's the most important moment. And it's like a meditation where you are actually able to clear your mind. And when you're able to clear your mind, because our thoughts are not us, our thoughts are a lot of like monkey mind stuff. When you're able to like fully clear your mind, that's you knowing yourself, which I think is so beautiful. And so it's like, you know, in this course of an hour or however long you practice yoga, you're like at this end, these few moments at the end, like really meeting yourself,f and how beautiful is that? So I think yoga is incredible. And also just to like make your body feel like you have a healthy body is really important because we're gifted with these bodies and we get one, one shot at making them the most healthy to come with us our whole lives and continue being in the world. And yoga is beautiful for stretching and elongating our muscles and improving mobility and flexibility. When I was doing yoga a lot, my gym improved.

I could lift heavier weights because I was more flexible. So, it's just, you know, and posture improved and all that. So that's like the basic stuff. I think movement, yeah, please, please, please, sorry. Rambling on and on, please stop me.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (27:17)

Do you mind if I pop something in? It's all good to do. I did that too with two rambling people. Okay. So I will clarify that we're talking here about the yoga asana, the physical practice, because yoga has a philosophy behind it. And frankly, it's important, everybody should trust in something beyond themselves. We all need some sort of framework. So if you have no spirituality, then it's a great starting point. Here are a few ways to be nice to the planet and humanity, things like that. So that really helps. So, things like that, or even the breathing, the way you breathe, that could help your gym anyway, but I know that you're partly talking about the very physical practice on the mat, where you're moving around the sort of thing you'll see on Instagram, but it does, it does really help.

Did you find that you improve over time? And I'll let you know my experience. And I'm curious if you saw anyone else having this experience. I was the opposite of sporty my whole life. I mean, I just could not stick with it, I couldn't throw a ball, couldn't do anything. Full stop. I was a bit puffed out running. It was so bad, but there's something about yoga. You can be completely not athletic and yet you end up really improving and feeling stronger. And when you feel physically stronger, you feel like you can handle life a bit more.

Becca Eisenberg (28:55)

Yes, and also connected to your body, which I think is really important. I struggle with this too, this kind of like disconnection, like going back to like the macro counting. I wasn't paying attention to my hunger cues because I was prepping what was appropriately weighed, and I was eating it. That was so like, and you can't go through life without being connected to your body. That's some crazy.

So yoga also, and again, I'm talking about the physical because this is kind of like what I know. I haven't done too much practising or studying about the bigger picture of yoga. So I don't wanna, you and I've learned a little bit of it, but it's not my expertise. So I don't wanna speak on it. I'm not qualified at all, but I am qualified to speak about, like, you know, how I personally have experienced it and just like, a reconnection to your body. And yes, we had one or two on our last retreat who did not do yoga at all. And through the week, I could see them feeling more and more confident and more connected and more excited to come to class, which was really…

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (29:38)

I'm not qualified. I followed it too much and got nerdy like a teacher's pet.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (30:11)

So they had not done yoga until the retreat, and then they started doing the retreat.

Becca Eisenberg (30:17)

Exactly, exactly. And you could see it, it was like a little bit of fear and anxiety, the first class, and like not really knowing, you know, looking a lot, looking around a lot. And then by the end, it was like they were just on their journey, you know, like just fully like confident in their practice and also like not caring if you do it perfectly right. That's the other thing that I love about yoga. It's like, you know, as I mentioned a while back, recovering perfectionist.

So I used to try to do the movements perfectly. And now when I go to yoga, I set my intention at the beginning of class, which is something really simple. It's to like, not like push too hard. Cause I also am like a chronic like over pusher, like overdoer, not to push too hard, to have fun, to like really honour my body and like feel like, know, juicy and whatever it wants to do. And that's what I try to do, and not have it be perfect.

So yoga has been very healing in a lot of ways in terms of mindset as well.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (31:21)

Yes. And it teaches you attitudes that will help with the rest of life because there's a feeling of physically working hard at getting through the practice and doing the things, even if you're not going through the perfection and in work and life, we're going to put effort in, but it's more important to do something than than not do it at all. And the phrase that the teacher uses where I go is any amount of the pose is the pose. So that's so crucial because let me know if, if you agree with this, just as much as we might not be able to completely do some sort of advanced odd bendy thing quite yet.

Becca Eisenberg (31:56)

Mm.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (32:13)

And we might not be Oprah yet as much as we both probably wanted to be. I wanted to be the next Oprah. Let's try. We're trying, but any amount of all of those poses is something, right?

Becca Eisenberg (32:28)

Yes, and we're like, I think like showing up is way more than half. I think showing up is more than half. I think showing up is like 90%. The rest is just like doing the thing.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (32:36)

Good. Show up and do the thing.

Becca Eisenberg (32:43)

Show up and do the thing. Nike's new slogan. Just kidding.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (32:46)

Yes.

Show up and do the thing. Actually, it's so funny because I love how important it is to just do it, whatever it is, but I don't want that phrase to be just owned by a fashion label that has this whole context behind it.

Becca Eisenberg (33:06)

Listen, listen, if it inspires people and motivates people, who cares? Who said it? Whatever, it doesn't matter.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (33:11)

Wherever we get it from, that show up and absolutely. And I think, you know, part of what I had to learn is to basically ease up on some of the fear. And sometimes fear is real, but push through the fears and the emotions. And for you, it was, you look up and see the buildings, and you hear from someone you care about, you're connecting with the world.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (33:43)

And so, it sounds like part of how we are going to show up is to not look down at the ground and disconnect. And we are having conversations like this one right now. So, part of taking the next step is showing up anywhere and being open to things, right?

Becca Eisenberg (34:00)

Yeah, and I'm not saying like to be delusional and not look at the dark things in your life because that's really important too. It's important to look at the shadows and like feel the fear that comes up. It is like you got to acknowledge it. But I really do believe that whatever you focus on expands. So when you're in that place of fear, like it's your choice. If you want to shift to feeling grateful, it's your choice. It's also your choice to stay in that fear. But I find that, you know,

Okay, I acknowledge you fear - can't remember, maybe it was Brene Brown or something, but it was like

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (34:36)

Liz Gilbert talked about some sort of anxieties around creativity. It was something like, okay, you're welcome to sit here, but you're not steering something like that.

Becca Eisenberg (34:42)

That's it, that's it. I was gonna say, you're not gonna drive the car. Listen, you, you are allowed to sit here and be here with me and go on this road trip, but you are not driving the car. And I just always remembered how impactful that was. Yeah, there's always gonna be anxiety and stress and stuff that comes up, acknowledge and then redirect your focus because it is just not helpful to move and live from that place of fear. It's unproductive.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (35:20)

Yes. And you still, I think that you need to sharpen to do what you can and be kind to yourself for what you are doing, because you are doing so many different types of work, and it's amazing. And you don't put the pressure on yourself to do only one type of work. And no, and I'm not going to say I'm going to only do the podcast. I'm doing other things as well. So I think we all have something that we sort of have emotions about. And it's so important to say, okay, we can keep some perspective, but we're still going to aim for more. I do want to say that we are still aiming for more, even though we are being granted ourselves.

Becca Eisenberg (36:04)

Yes, and I think that's really important. Yes, and I think also, you know, when I get caught up in, so I actually took a proper like retreat coaching program. The first retreat that I ever went on was hosted by a company, a husband and wife, they're absolutely incredible people called Revamp.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (36:17)

Nice.

Becca Eisenberg (36:26)

And they have a program for people who want to lead retreats. I took this proper program. They just break everything down. It's incredible. I highly recommend it's called the retreat leaders Academy. I have to have to plug them, Corey and Christian, cause they led me to achieving my dreams. And one thing that goes, yeah, yes, please, please, always French fries. Just kidding. And what they always say is when you start to get caught up in like…

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (36:41)

We're the things we love. Sorry for diving in. We're plugging the things we love.

Anyway.

Becca Eisenberg (36:54)

I don't have enough signups, or things aren't going right, to lean back into your why. Why am I doing this? Why am I so inspired when I went on my first retreat? How did it feel right? Like leaning back into that. It's not like it's shutting down the success. The is important. The money is important. This is a business, right? But it's not the most important thing. And as long as you're inspired by something, you're going to keep doing it regardless of whether it's working in that moment or needs an adaptation.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (37:32)

You are a guardian angel, and I'll explain why, because I feel like I'm right now in that life stage with things like, I paid keynote stuff like that, that you were in when you started retreats. And I think what I'm getting from what you're saying is that the purpose is the journey.

Becca Eisenberg (37:49)

Yeah.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (38:00)

The money and the success are a reward for that journey. And I saw that mentality about other awards and titles, because previously I saw more of those than money. That's how I grew up. saw a of more titles than dollars. I'll say that. But even then it was, it was really the people who set out to make a difference. Who happened to end up getting a few extra titles?

So did you find that the more you just try to make a difference and serve and help, then things are growing and getting better?

Becca Eisenberg (38:36)

100%. And also it's like law of attraction vibes. Like when you're like desperately clinging to something, it always runs away. It always doesn't work out. It always crumbles, right? But when you're coming from a place of like, I'm just doing this because it really lights me up, and it's so, it's making me so passionate and excited. Like, and I, and I actually am detached from the outcome.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (38:44)

That explains a lot.

Becca Eisenberg (39:04)

Then I have found that things just rush in. And it's hard. It's hard to do because you're like, I really want this thing. I'm unattached from the outcome. Like it sounds crazy, but it's the only way to do it if you don't want fear to drive the car.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (39:23)

Yes. And part of the detachment, part of what would help for you, is that you're not entirely relying on the retreats. You're not the one way that you are surviving. And so you're not in that survival mentality. So that's really crucial. And we need to still create those things with the podcast. sat down and decided we're having these conversations.

Becca Eisenberg (39:31)

Yeah.

Yeah.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (39:50)

One conversation isn't going to put a roof over my head for a week right now, but I'm going to have a conversation anyway. And some people out there will say whatever it might be, whether it's visual arts, some people, a lot of people do that. Don't, but whatever creation it might be, they sort of don't even get started unless it's going to be giant instantly, but things take time.

Becca Eisenberg (39:55)

Yes. I believe I did this very purposefully. I typically am not the kind of person that just jumps full on into something without a backup plan or supplementation, right? And I actually like, I don't know, I kind of encourage people that are starting something new to kind of walk the same road, like have either kind of like a nest egg or a savings or some other part-time job.

So you are not coming from this place of just lack and worry. But also, I feel like there are people like that that just have this inner knowing that this is gonna work, and they just jump and free-fall. And I have so much admiration and respect for those people. It's not my choice. It's not mine.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (41:05)

And it depends on the situation. I suppose if someone is 19, living with parents, then sure.

Becca Eisenberg (41:12)

Yeah, or, I mean, listen, we've all heard these incredible success stories of someone that just kept trying and kept trying and kept trying and put everything on the line and then succeeded. It happens. It does happen. I want a little bit more security than that. Just a little bit more, yes.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (41:36)

Yes.

You are looking after yourself, and keep in mind that quite a few of the tech companies started in a garage, right? You were thinking that.

Becca Eisenberg (41:46)

After I was thinking about, I was thinking about that.

Yeah. Yeah, I mean, sure. Sure, sure. And they didn't, you know, I don't know, I have a lifestyle that I, a specific lifestyle that I like to live. I like to take myself out for nice meals and buy beautiful clothes, and you know, so I want to make sure that I'm able to continue living and travel a lot and stay in beautiful hotels.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (41:51)

And they were young though. Weren't they all sort of young?

Becca Eisenberg (42:19)

You know, so yeah, I want to make sure that that's covered, and I'm creating something new, and you know.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (42:28)

think that's a part of looking after yourself. You are caring for yourself and your needs to the point where you are able to provide more value to people in your retreats.

Becca Eisenberg (42:36)

Exactly, exactly. And I'm so, I'm so excited. It's interesting, actually, after moving to Paris, I don't lead retreats with anyone that I haven't worked with, or, you know, like really love and know, because it's a big undertaking. And since I've moved to Paris, I'm having a lot more experiences with teachers that are excited to do retreats. So, I did this amazing breath work class, and I'm talking to her about doing a retreat in the south of France, and

There's this woman who is like a psychic and she teaches people how to get more in touch with their psychic abilities and then, like, you know, create these beautiful. She's also a florist. So meditating and creating this beautiful floral arrangement, and then painting. Like, I'm just finding that being in this place, also having just moved to Paris, I'm finding so many more opportunities, and I'm really leaning into this thing, and it just feels so juicy and exciting.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (43:34)

You love it.

And a lesson there, go to the places where you will find the people who can collaborate with you. You are, the parallels are mind-blowing because you've found your people in Paris after moving from New York. And frankly, going from those, going between those two cities, that's a whole story in itself. A lot of people would love to be in one end than the other, but going to the place where your people are,

Becca Eisenberg (44:00)

Yeah.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (44:04)

That's crucial. I can tell you that I went back to the city and saw people who were really guiding my direction, and you're saying the same thing.

Becca Eisenberg (44:17)

Yeah, I would say though, like take one step back, like before you find your people, like go to the place where you feel home, peace, love. Like you, I think you can also be your own internal guide, like, okay, I'm going to this, but to your point, like I think community is one of the most important things. I mean, you know, I've read all these articles about the loneliness epidemic and how everybody's obsessed with their phones, and it's like virtual is not as fulfilling as real-life experiences, another reason why I love retreats. And it's so important to find your people and find your community. That's how you live longer and enjoy your life better, in my opinion.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (45:03)

You need to find your people for sure. How cool would it be to one day have a motivated collective event somewhere I get often?

Becca Eisenberg (45:11)

100 % say the word Melanie, I'm in. Also, you know what's so funny? I've been… Sydney and Australia have been like kind of circulating in the back of my mind. And I'm really looking for an excuse to go, to come to you and your side of the world. So I think maybe we need to have another discussion about that.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (45:27)

Okay.

We will talk. Okay. That is such a sign because, seriously, just in recent weeks, a bunch of signs were telling me I have to make an event in Sydney. And I actually moved out of Sydney at the end of 2017. I regret it, but that's how life happened. And now, seriously, a string of people, I had someone on the podcast who's in Sydney, and I knew I needed to do an event for her, and then other people were saying, 'Get back there.' And now you're saying you've been thinking of coming to Australia. feel like, hang on, we're all just lining up neatly. Here we are.

Becca Eisenberg (46:19)

Here we are. And I'm ready. You say the word. I'm serious. I like, I really feel called to do more, more events, more events, more in-person events that also like combine wellness and healing and collective and travel. I mean, it's like such a passion.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (46:37)

I can only pitch that because, you know, we're recording, but we could co-host. Okay. my goodness.

Becca Eisenberg (46:42)

Yeah, let's do it. I'm in. I'm in.

Making magic happen in real recorded time.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (46:50)

We'll do it!

I can't believe this. Seriously. I was thinking, I know that I need something with the right person. And I mean, we're both chatty and on the same wavelength, and you know, you need an extra person. I, and we're saying this before we started recording that, sorry, as the next recording can wait a moment. So I was saying before we started that

Becca Eisenberg (47:08)

Great team.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (47:23)

We both knew that when you are guiding a group and a community, it needs to be more than one person because you'd been doing the retreats, and I was supporting a community group earlier in the year, and you really need to have extra people. It's not a one-person show.

Becca Eisenberg (47:46)

Especially like when the when the person who's actually like teaching we need to like really protect that person's energy in order to provide the best experience absolutely so yeah Melanie you and I will talk offline I know I know we're right we're right at time but can I just say two more things about my upcoming retreats if anyone is interested to please get in touch with me I have four spots left for the November one it's November 20th it's coming up very soon in Costa Rica

I have another one also in Costa Rica in the end of February. So I'm just so excited to meet anyone who's interested in adventure and travel and healing and wellness and beautiful community. So, I'm here. I'm here for whoever is listening, whoever feels called.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (48:32)

Okay, Becca, thank you so much for being on the show.

Becca Eisenberg (48:36)

Thank you so much for having me and we're going to talk offline about this event. Yes!

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (48:39)

Yes.