The Motivate Collective Podcast by Melanie Suzanne Wilson

Keywords

journaling, manifestation, personal development, self-discovery, success, sensitivity, writing, coaching, overcoming obstacles, personal growth

Summary

In this enlightening conversation, Ariane shares her journey of self-discovery through journaling and manifestation. She discusses the challenges she faced during the pandemic, the importance of recognising and overcoming limiting beliefs, and how journaling has been a transformative tool in her life. Ariane emphasises the significance of being true to oneself, redefining success, and embracing sensitivity as a strength. She offers valuable insights for aspiring authors and encourages listeners to keep creating and trusting their journey.

Takeaways

Journaling can help you manifest your dreams. Setbacks can be reframed as opportunities for growth. Bravery in decision-making can lead to unexpected support. Self-discovery is a continuous journey, not a destination. Success should be redefined based on personal values, not societal expectations. Sensitivity can be a strength, allowing deeper connections and insights. Writing a book is a journey of transformation into an author. Creativity should be nurtured without the pressure of perfection. Every experience contributes to your unique story. Trusting yourself is essential for personal growth.

Titles

Manifesting Dreams Through Journaling Navigating Life's Setbacks with Bravery

Sound bites

"Trust yourself, it will be okay." "Everything happens for you." "Keep creating, keep writing."

Chapters

00:00 Overcoming Obstacles to Connect 03:07 The Power of Journaling for Manifestation 05:56 Bravery in Times of Change 08:43 Navigating Setbacks as Opportunities 11:58 Finding Your True Self Beyond Titles 14:44 The Journey of Self-Discovery 17:46 Redefining Success and Achievement 21:02 The Impact of Sensitivity on Life 23:55 Creating and Sharing Your Story 26:46 Words of Wisdom for Aspiring Authors

Speaker 1 (00:00)

Ariane, welcome to the podcast.

Speaker 2 (00:10)

Thank you. I am very excited to be here, even more so because we went through all the challenges possible to be here. So it's really a big joy to be here and to see you and talk to you.

Speaker 1 (00:22)

Yes, thank you so much for those who are listening and wondering what we're talking about. The platform I normally use was temporarily not loading. A lamp globe was out and blank, and everything was happening, but we had made it. We are overcoming obstacles and talking because Ariane, you have done so much with your journals and your books, and I'm keen to hear all about it. Let's start, and would you like to tell everybody what exactly you do?

Speaker 2 (00:55)

Yes, I love to. So I teach manifestation through journaling. And journaling is a tool to write yourself to your dreams. And I think we all know the Dear Diary way of journaling. And then we know the way of journaling with the guided prompts. So what are you grateful for? What are three experiences that you want to have within the next years? And then there is a third one, which I teach, which is more analytical, but it helps you recognise where you're standing in your own way and how you can remove everything that's standing in your own way so that you can move forward and meet your dreams and all those heartfelt wishes that you have and what you want to create in your life.

Speaker 1 (01:38)

That is amazing. How did you get started in looking at what's getting in the way and what was getting in your way?

Speaker 2 (01:48)

Well, as so often with life, life happens. I like to think that sometimes we break to break open and to break through. And I've always liked writing. I started journaling when I was five years old. Just believe that, dear diary, today, I brushed my teeth. We journal when we're kids, right? I still have those journals. But then I started journaling with that third method that I just mentioned when my life was falling apart. I lost my relationship.

I actually got divorced during the lockdown. lost my income. I had to start from scratch, and I didn't start journaling to build a business. I started journaling just to pick up the pieces again and to realise how I had been living my life just didn't work anymore. And I needed to get to know myself. I needed to know who I am when I don't have to be anyone or anything, and what is my own version of success, and what is the life that I want to build.

And then I got very deep into personal development. And for the first time I heard of limiting beliefs and inner child and all those, all the terminology that have concepts that I've never heard before. But I realised, okay, that's actually the key. When you look inside, you find your answers, and that helps you create the life that you truly love.

Speaker 1 (03:07)

A lot of people had breakups around COVID and the lockdowns, and in the aftermath. I'm wondering, I'm wondering, let's explore that a little bit for a moment, because how did you feel? Do you think that COVID amplified things and accelerated that experience for you? And I'm wondering, how? What? What happened beyond the journaling?

Speaker 2 (03:42)

Yes, I think the lockdown was a moment when we realised that nothing is as certain as we thought it was, and we stopped taking things for granted. And I think it was this moment of now or never. And that helped me make that decision. I think it just amplified what was what had been broken before. And I was just tolerating a lot of things, and then during that time, I just realised this is not what I want to continue. Like, this is not how I want to live my life. And I didn't have a backup plan. I didn't have a solution. didn't even know how I was going to afford rent on my own, but I just had. Yeah. So, um, I was lucky that prices in Mexico are comparatively lower than in Germany. So, I remember that I texted my parents and I said, I can't stay in that relationship. I don't know how I'm going to afford rent. can take on whatever I can do in that time because everything was locked down. And then my dad said, 'You know, I can support you with…' It wasn't even that much. It was like 150 euros for a room. So he said, I can, I can pay that for you. Don't worry about it. I just want you to be happy. So I was very lucky that in that moment, my dad stepped in and said, 'This is what matters most, and I know that you're going to walk through it, and I'm just going to support you for how long you need. And then a few months later, I could make it on my own, but that really was a breaking point. Like, as I said, I couldn't even afford those $150 because I didn't have any savings. ⁓ Nobody had counted on the lockdown to come. Like my income just broke away from one day to another, and I was just left with nothing. But I think...

In those moments, I want to think that we're always supported and courage is always supported. And when you are brave enough to take a really, really brave decision, there's always going to happen a tiny miracle that that's helping you. Like in that case, it was my dad who stepped in, but then there may have been other options and solutions. I don't think that we're ever really lost. I think when we are brave, we always get rewarded for it.

Speaker 1 (06:00)

Okay, what other brave steps did you take and how did that get reflected in the journaling?

Speaker 2 (06:10)

So I started my journaling business because I had written a book about it, the Healing Journals, and it didn't make a lot of sense at that time. Again, like I was just writing for myself. I was in another project, my schedule was packed, but I had this feeling inside of like, just write. I didn't know that it was going to end up as a book, but I just knew, okay, just keep writing, just keep writing. So then I kept writing, and then it ended up as a book. I published the book, and then I got requests if I could offer coaching on that. ⁓ But I think that it doesn't make sense to write a book right now. That was that felt very brave. And in the moment, it didn't feel like time; it didn't feel right. It felt right. But it didn't feel ⁓ like very logical to put so much time and effort into something that like just writing. I didn't even know it was going to be a book. But again, you have this inner knowing, and you have the strong hold towards something, and I do believe that we just have to listen, and it's going to make sense at some point.

Speaker 1 (07:16)

So do the thing that might not seem completely logical because it could make sense in a weird way.

Speaker 2 (07:26)

Yes, well, I think there's a difference between reckless and risk friendly. I wouldn't recommend to go the reckless way, but I think it's okay to be risk friendly and to not always know how it's going to turn out. But you have to take a step and then take the next one and then take the next one. And that's how you pave your path.

Speaker 1 (07:47)

Definitely. Honestly, you're inspiring me as you say this, and I know other people need to hear this as well. It's time now and I think it's possibly easier to take those risks now because although it was quite a time for change during the lockdowns at this point in this decade, we have a little bit more freedom so there's even less of an excuse to take the risks.

Speaker 2 (08:17)

Yes, I don't know about you, but I feel that 2025 has been everything that you had planned. It just didn't work. I've talked to so many. My goodness. Yes. I talked to so many creative, highly sensitive, intuitive people, and everyone is telling me the same. 2025 has been so challenging. There has always been something unexpected.

Not a single plan has worked out, and we're here trying to make it to the next month.

Speaker 1 (08:47)

This year has been so weird because last year for me was a total mess with basically things that shouldn't have happened. But then this year, I started this year saying, okay, going to clean everything up, sort everything out. And I have a plan because I am an almighty human with a plan. And then what does 2025 do? Did everybody else just realise, okay, our plans are going in the rubbish bin?

Speaker 2 (09:18)

Yes. We're in the plans. totally. And I think we're trained. Being trained in what I feel is that this year has been asking us, Do you really believe in yourself? Do you are you really willing to listen to your own inner knowing? Is this really what you want? Persistence, resilience, all those things, and especially this, just make it through, but stay loyal to yourself and remember who you are, and it is going to be challenging and it will take longer than you think it will take but just stay true to yourself and it will make sense. It will make sense very soon.

Speaker 1 (10:00)

It will make sense. Did you find that the journaling helped you to keep faith and clarity by just mapping out? Mean, what did you do in the journaling? Did you map out this is where I wanted to be? Were you reflecting on things in a bit less of a this is what happened today sort of way? What were you doing and all that?

Speaker 2 (10:02)

Yeah.

Okay, so how I see it is that every single human being comes to this world with a unique set of inner colours, and those inner colours describe your essence, everything that you are when you don't have to be anyone or anything. It's usually really just a list of between three and 10 words. And we're here to connect with those inner colours and to paint on the canvas called life. And it's not a paint-by-number thing, but it's like, what do you want to paint? What is your own version of success? So when I journal, I have three columns in my journal.

The first one is for the date. The second one is for what happened today, both the triggers, but also all the beautiful coincidences that just happened. And I can't describe them, but they happened. And then the third one is for connecting whatever happened with my inner colours. So maybe sometimes it touches just one, or maybe sometimes it touches the whole list of inner colours. But that's how I see, especially when triggering moments come up.

Usually, there's like a pattern. So I notice, okay, I haven't, I have been saying yes when I want to say no, or I've just been leaning too much into people pleasing. I'm not setting boundaries. I don't believe in myself. I'm not protecting this under colour of mine. So I just document that, and I recognise the pattern, and then I know what I have to change. So when I see, okay, I'm not saying no, then I'm aware of that.

And whenever something comes up, know, okay, now this is a test. This is asking me to say no. So I just say no. And then we take different decisions. We get different results. And that's how journaling has helped me so much to connect the dots. Also, to realise that really everything is always happening for you. Also, the setbacks, they're just asking you, hey, can you step up for you in a colourist? Can you be true to yourself? And always remember that list and double check every single decision that I take, is that, like, am I choosing that from my ego or from a wound or is my essence speaking here? Are my inner colours speaking here?

Speaker 1 (12:11)

Do you find that sometimes the experiences that look like setbacks are getting us actually back on track to where we should be, and they are telling us, You really want to do this? No, but this option is better. Do you think that happens?

Speaker 2 (12:28)

Yes, definitely. I realised that when I went running, there was a sometime like that I had a cold for two weeks, and I was so sad about it because I was not running, and then I had to start slow again. But then once I was back, I noticed that I got faster, and I thought, How is that possible when I was actually taking a break?

And then I transferred that back to life. And I think it's the same thing when setbacks happen, we see it as a setback, but actually, it's also speeding up things. Those setbacks are asking you as well. Okay. Where in your life haven't you been true to yourself? Where in your life are you pretending to be something or pretending to want something, but what is it that you actually want? So I would definitely say the setbacks, they are not setbacks, they're trampolines, but we have to be willing to transform them.

Speaker 1 (13:19)

The obstacles are trampolines. Now, I do want to give the audience more context because, as important as it is to focus on your journaling and your writing, I also want the listeners to find out who you are. Where did you come from? So let's get some background for a second, just so they can get more familiar with you.

Speaker 2 (13:21)

Yes.

Speaker 1 (13:47)

Where did you grow up? What work did you do before you were focusing on coaching and writing? Let us know a bit more about your story.

Speaker 2 (13:58)

Yeah, of course. So I was born in Germany, in Munich. My dad is Argentinian, my mom is German. So I was always I always had those two cultures on the two mindsets. I was I also had that feeling of never fully belonging. And I think that's important because it comes up throughout my story. And I also think that every challenge that we have or have had since being a child is actually also a key that unlocks something later on in life.

And yeah, I was just choosing the classic corporate career path, completely like an overachiever and everything. And it worked well until 22, and then I got a burnout. And it was, it was really harsh, but I'm actually thankful that it was so harsh because my body wrecked it very strongly. A stone grew in my throat, and I needed surgery to take it out, and it was from the stress. Very early in life, I learned that I can't push no matter what.

I have to listen to myself. We only have this one body, and we have to treat it kindly. As soon as you... I don't know for you, but for me, it just doesn't work. can't do something that I'm not convinced of or it's something that I can't force myself for a long time to do something that I don't want to do because my body is going to react somehow. And I just don't want to risk that anymore.

But it was a turning point. It was very hard because I thought, okay, I always wanted this shiny corporate career. And then like, who am I actually beyond those titles? And what I did was I left my life in Germany behind. I moved to Mexico and started from scratch again. And the first years were that there was a lot of freedom because Mexico was so far away. Nobody even knew those like where I had… where I had studied or the competitions and the certificates and titles. Like nobody cared about that. So it was really good because…

Speaker 1 (15:52)

Certificates and titles, okay, what should we know?

Speaker 2 (15:55)

Okay, so I studied in Scotland and Ireland, but while I was studying, I was already working for startups. I co-authored a book with the leadership consultancy in Germany on women and leadership, interviewing women in leadership positions of the Big Four. I did three TEDx talks. I performed in the European Parliament. I think that was about it. So like tons of tons of those things, and like every single competition I was there.

I think every single opportunity that I could grab, I just wanted it so much. I think that I thought, I think that I thought, I thought if you have the perfect CV, then nothing can happen to you, then you're safe. And then nobody can criticise you, and then you belong. But that just didn't work. And that's actually beautiful because then that pain turned into poetry, literally. And I mean, you never belong because of the title or something. You belong always. But also, it's like people love you, the essence of you. People love your inner colours. And that's what I had to find out.

Speaker 1 (17:05)

This is amazing that you're sharing all that. I didn't realise that you did all these TED Talks and all of this work. And I can't remember which celebrity wished that everybody would make a lot of money to realise that it's not everything. Do you remember who it was?

Speaker 2 (17:23)

Oh, I heard it a little bit. I forgot the name, but I love that quote.

Speaker 1 (17:29)

I remember. I don't want to guess and get it wrong, but I think in a similar way, I mean, I'm not sure if you had a similar experience, but I never got rich doing what I was doing. Seeing all these titles and forms of achievement, I think that what you're describing is very much the sort of experience that I had in similar ways.

And, and sometimes we end up thinking we'll be accepted, we'll be liked, we'll belong, we'll find our social home. We will be, you know, you let achievement be your rock and foundation because surely if we just do these things, then we'll have our people. But it doesn't work that way because there's always another hoop to jump, and also, you are more than what you can do; you're also who you can be. So it's like society has told us there had to be something in the global narrative that convinced people like you and me and others to believe that. Do you think so?

Speaker 2 (18:46)

I think it's that classic definition of success that we never question. And we also don't really take the time to get to know ourselves. We don't really get that time either. It's just so like from kindergarten onwards, it's kindergarten, school, and then university. And there's always something. So we never really, and if at all, we get a sabbatical for one year, but I don't think that's enough. So, I don't think we take the time, and we don't value that. We probably see it as a waste of time if we take too much time journaling or take too much time reflecting.

But we never question if that path that everyone is on to a certain extent, if that's really our path. And it's really hard to quit. And it's also really hard to admit that. I remember when I had all of this shiny success, I felt so empty and so lost. And I was very angry at everything and also at myself. But I thought I had played by the rules, and it had made me sick. So what is this thing called success then? And what does it actually mean to me? And I was very sad also because I had worked so hard to get there, and then to admit that this is not what you wanted, even though you've put so much effort into it. It's hard, and we have to be honest with ourselves and sit with it and say, It's okay. We've outgrown that version of ourselves, and it's okay to. I wouldn't even say to change your mind because you're not changing your mind, you're adjusting, and you're being honest with yourself, and you say, 'This is no longer aligned. Now I'm going to choose a different path.'

Speaker 1 (20:16)

And we can still achieve. You have been publishing books, and I saw your website. You have coaching. You are achieving something, but you're not just trying to fulfil every requirement that you or anyone would assume might be preferred externally. So it's just redefining achievement to some extent, and so we're not saying just to hide away and don't do anything. But when you say that the old path that looked like success was making you sick, the thing that has startled me in the conversations in the podcast is that you and I, we're not the only ones. And there are others who have become, there are others who have been literally sick or injured or unwell. It's actually physically impacting their health, trying to fit what we think is needed for success. And that's really alarming because how successful are we really if we are becoming so unwell? And did you find that some people look like they are doing fine in that path, and maybe hiding the struggles of it? And then we wonder, let me know if you had this experience of wondering, 'Why aren't I just keeping up the way everybody else is keeping up?'

Speaker 2 (21:48)

All the time. Sometimes I was just staring at my laptop, crying, thinking, why can I just like not be normal? Why can I not just be like, why can I not, why, why, why am I annoyed by the fluorescent lights? Why do I feel so stuck in an office? Why is everybody okay working from nine to five, and I'm just not okay with that, and it's breaking me, and I don't like it. I'm sure that there are some people who really thrive in the nine-to-five, and that's amazing and that's beautiful.

Success looks so different to everyone, and we should have the chance to decide what it means for you. But there should also be space for everyone who doesn't fit into the normal. And it should be more normal to just listen to yourself. And as you say, it's maybe some people are very good in hiding that, but for how long? you're, it's just scary to think that your body is going to react sooner or later.

It's also a blessing in disguise. I've had that in relationships as well. Once, after a breakup, I was going through so much grief that I developed chronic pain for six months. And I thought that I was going crazy. thought that I literally started looking in search engines, like, is there something like that? Does it exist, or am I just making it up? And there are many examples, actually, of people who just feel a lot and who don't want to just deal with it.

And I think that's beautiful because we can like just as well as we can feel grief or pain or feel so stuck, we can experience the other end of the spectrum as well. can feel so much joy. We can feel so much love. can appreciate so many tiny moments that other people just don't notice or don't want to notice. And maybe that would already change so much if we gave ourselves the permission to truly feel and to not feel ashamed of feeling a lot.

Speaker 1 (23:39)

You feel a lot. I think sometimes that can be incorrectly described these days as oversensitive or I'm just busting myths here. Because when that happens, I think it falls under umbrellas of disorders, things like that, like oversensitive, get some headphones and stop hearing the world, but… and to each their own. But if you feel things a lot as well, the sensitivity, I had no idea that so many things would align before we started this conversation. And I think that when people do feel things a bit more intensely, it's more like, let me know if it's like this for you. It's like you can sense things in general. It's not, it's partly the emotions, but partly you can just see things and join some dots or see the subtle things or something in the background. And we're the storytellers. We are the ones who have more to write about and more to talk about because we're seeing things a bit more. Do you think so?

Speaker 2 (24:46)

Absolutely. Yes. I think we also pick up the energy of other people so quickly, and that there are moods, and that's why it's so important to be aware of it, and also to always ask yourself, okay, is this my doubt or is this from someone else? Is this my anxiety, or did I just pick it up somewhere, and how can I brush it off? And I remember my mom once sent me an article that was already, I think, 10 years ago or something. And she was like, 'Look, there's an article on highly sensitive people.' I think that's what the official title is, right? And that was the first time that I heard about it. And I saw myself in the article, and I was like, wait, so not everybody perceives the world like that. How do other people live? Are they prophets? So for me, it wasn't like, you're diagnosed with being highly sensitive. It's just like, why don't other people perceive the world like this?

Speaker 1 (25:33)

It's, I'm glad we can all gather as the ones who are different because I wanted to say if anyone is listening and doesn't feel that way, doesn't feel oversensitive, that's fine. But we're all a type of different, at least in some moment, hopefully, where we wonder, is everybody else not feeling this way as well? So I think that's really crucial because it could be any sort of feeling, like I'm noticing something isn't quite right at work, and I feel nervous about speaking up. Or it could be, hold on, I want to ask more questions about something because I feel a bit curious about whether this is the whole truth or whether there are other options to choose from in a decision. And we end up wondering, is everybody else just not asking those questions or digging deeper? So it's really empowering to know it's okay to be sensing things, asking things. It's okay. And there will be someone else out there. Keep in mind listeners that, Arianne, so you're in Mexico now.

Speaker 2 (26:50)

Actually in Baltimore, but I'm based in Mexico.

Speaker 1 (26:53)

Amazing. So that's where you are, and I'm in Australia. And so you'll find your people somewhere.

Speaker 2 (27:00)

Yes, yes, no matter the time zone, you find your people. It's now 5.44. But it's also yesterday for you. So you're in the future. From my perspective.

Speaker 1 (27:06)

What time is it over there?

Okay, you chose okay because I'm in it.

Speaker 2 (27:21)

Thanks for letting me know.

Speaker 1 (27:23)

Are you in the AM or the PM?

Speaker 2 (27:25)

PM.

Speaker 1 (27:27)

Okay. So, so you're in dinner time yesterday.

Speaker 2 (27:32)

Yes, it's Monday afternoon and it's Tuesday morning for you.

Speaker 1 (27:40)

And you can still find your people even if they are having dinner when you are having breakfast.

Speaker 2 (27:46)

Yes, but isn't that just the perfect example that it doesn't matter if you're having dinner or breakfast, it doesn't matter in which time zone you are. It's just like everyone is in their own world, but then we come together and share our world, and we learn from one another. So also when someone who maybe doesn't feel so much comes together with someone who feels a lot, then we can learn from one another. And sometimes it also happens because you feel so much and because you're so open about it. Somebody else has a click moment and says, I'm actually also feeling that, but I never gave myself permission to think about that. I just brushed it off. So I think because maybe you know that moment when you feel, I can't say that. This is too straightforward. This is too honest. But isn't it a gift to be honest and to show your most honest self to someone else and always communicate with kindness? It's not to say, like, be straightforward and hurt someone else, but just

Tell your truth and don't pretend to be someone that you're not, but just be you and let people love you the way that you are.

Speaker 1 (28:50)

If they really do, then that is amazing. I think you are a step ahead of me because I'm still letting myself be a little bit more authentic out in the world. But what I hope we can both encourage everybody else with is that someone out there might have not yet had the journey of losing something and journaling, and they might then embark on a journey like yours.

Let's hope they can be reassured even before they start that because we remember that that pain of... Okay, we remember that pain of realizing we are in the wrong place and the discomfort of knowing you are meant to, you are destined to be somewhere else.

If we can reassure the people who are in that place right now of knowing they are destined to be somewhere else, then they can find us, they can find other people as well. And so it's just reassuring that it will be okay. Taking the leap. Did you have that feeling of you're taking a leap? You needed to trust that things will be okay.

Speaker 2 (30:12)

So many times, I don't want to sound discouraging, but I think it happens more often than we want to. But it gets easier because then you start trusting yourself. That is something that I still need to learn to trust myself. Sometimes I just know, but then my mind gets too loud and it's just ripping apart my own trust. And I'm still learning that to trust myself. So, but every time you do and every time that you take a decision that just feels so right. Everything is going to be okay. Maybe not as fast as you wish, but it will be okay.

Speaker 1 (30:45)

It will be okay. And if you are still reassuring yourself, then what we can learn from that is it's a journey, not a destination, because you've done so much, and you build your personal brand, and you are still on that journey of trusting yourself and trusting your fate. So it's okay to have those moments, even when we are halfway through the journey.

Speaker 2 (31:07)

You're never fully there, I think. And that's also beautiful because you just get to know yourself better and better and better. So yeah, I think we really have to be okay with not always knowing everything, but be open enough to pick up the beautiful moments and to appreciate the beautiful coincidences and to see all the love and not always focus on what's going wrong, but also focus on everything that's going so right.

Speaker 1 (31:30)

Yes. I'm so keen in our final five or 10 minutes, I'm keen to ask for those who are thinking about writing a book, publishing a book, what words of wisdom do you have for getting started with that?

Speaker 2 (31:46)

So I think what it is all about is that you turn from a writer and someone who loves words to an author. And that feels so scary in the beginning. The difference is that when you write, you just write for yourself. But then, when you publish something, just saying that, like, I just wrote a book, and now you can read that book, and now somebody can read something that feels so personal to me. That's scary in the beginning, but it's beautiful. So know that.

Speaker 1 (31:57)

What's the difference?

Speaker 2 (32:16)

When you have this call that you want to write a book, this is your journey as well. This is not only something like a few words turning into a book, but this is also you turning into another version of you, which is the author version of you. And how I see art is that it doesn't belong to you. It's the same with songs, for example. Everybody has a different story with around the same song, right?

So you write something and then you give it to the world, and it's no longer yours, and that's beautiful because then it belongs to everyone who reads your book, and that's the purpose of your book. So it's your journey, it's the book's journey, it's the reader's journey, it's a lot of journeys coming together, and I think that's so beautiful, and that's encouragement and inspiration, and just keep creating, keep writing. Don't fall too much into the doubts. There are people out there who need to read your book and who are waiting for your book without knowing that they're waiting for the book. ⁓ And keep writing and don't be too harsh with yourself. I started getting into the habit of just writing a thousand words every day. And a thousand is just enough to just write and not be too critical. even if I don't know what I'm going to write about, just type and type and type and type until hitting a thousand. Usually after 200 words, gets easier anyways. But it's, you're showing yourself that there's always something to write about. You're showing yourself that you can do it, and it doesn't have to be perfect, and you can edit it later, but just dive into the world of words and just keep writing and keep creating and bit by bit, every single page builds.

Speaker 1 (33:58)

Do anything, create anything and you can refine it later but don't wait for perfection before you start.

Speaker 2 (34:05)

Definitely. And then also let it go. Because if I now read my book, I would be the one correcting it. So let it go. It's like a picture that you take of a certain moment, and the book is the same. You take, it's like you freeze a chapter of your life in that book. So don't go over it too many times, don't edit, and don't be too harsh on yourself.

Speaker 1 (34:29)

Goodness. That is golden. We are learning so much. I feel like you've framed precisely how to just let a book get out into the world. Because some of us keep thinking, there's another experience that's needed to add to it. There's another thing, but no, it's a snapshot in time, and you can always do another book later. It's okay. In the last

Speaker 2 (34:53)

Yes.

Speaker 1 (34:55)

Few minutes, are there any other words of wisdom? And I love to do threes. Three is a great number. Do you have three pieces of wisdom to share with everybody that everybody should universally follow?

Speaker 2 (35:13)

That's a great question. First is keep creating. Second one is everything happens for you. And the third one is actually a journaling question, of course. If everything is possible, how is it? And intentionally I asked, 'How is it not how would it be?' And allow yourself to write about it. Like, how is it if everything is possible? And knowing that everything is possible, just write about it.

Don't think about is that possible or how am I going to pay for that? Just let like put take money out of the equation just for a moment. Just to let your heart speak and to realise this is what I actually want and this is what I dream of and wish for, and I'm just going to keep creating until I get there, no matter how long it takes.

Speaker 1 (35:58)

Amazing. Ariane, thank you so much for talking.

Speaker 2 (36:02)

Thank you so much. Love your conversation so much, and I'm so glad that it happened.

Speaker 1 (36:09)

⁓

This was a lovely conversation, and I appreciate the talk so much. Appreciate your work so much. It has been a real gift to have you on the show.

Speaker 2 (36:21)

Thank you. Thank you for all you do and for all you create. And I don't know if you're thinking about writing a book, but keep writing, you too. And thank you for the podcast, and just a huge thank you for connecting and co-creating.

Speaker 1 (36:31)

Anytime.

Show Notes

Keywords

resilience, self-compassion, parenting, mental health, grief, therapy, personal growth, motherhood, emotional regulation, yoga

Takeaways

Ioana Chei is a licensed psychotherapist and mindset coach.

Resilience and self-compassion are crucial in navigating life's challenges.

Personal experiences shape our understanding of mental health.

Fear and anxiety can significantly impact new parents.

Grief is a common yet often unspoken aspect of motherhood.

It's important to allow oneself to grieve and process emotions.

Self-care practices are essential for emotional regulation.

Yoga and meditation can aid in mental clarity and emotional balance.

Every individual's journey through grief is unique and should not be rushed.

Finding joy in new experiences is possible at any age.

Summary

In this conversation, therapist Ioana Chei shares her insights on resilience, self-compassion, and the challenges of parenthood. She discusses her personal journey through grief after losing her father while pregnant, the common struggles faced by new mothers, and the importance of allowing oneself to grieve. Ioana emphasises the need for self-care, the role of yoga and meditation in emotional well-being, and the significance of finding joy in new experiences as we navigate life's transitions.

Titles

Navigating Resilience and Self-Compassion

A Therapist's Journey Through Grief

Sound bites

"I was scared of everything."

"It's a form of grief."

"It's about the little steps."

Chapters

00:00 Introduction to Resilience and Self-Compassion

02:42 Ioana's Personal Journey of Resilience

05:47 Understanding Fear and Acceptance

08:17 The Commonality of Postpartum Depression

11:27 Grief and Loss in Motherhood

14:05 Navigating Parenthood and Professional Life

16:54 Regaining Identity After Motherhood

19:46 The Perspective Shift in Parenting and Psychology

22:42 Balancing Work and Family Life

25:52 Self-Care and Parental Needs

28:12 The Importance of Self-Compassion

30:45 Navigating Grief and Loss

34:12 Personal Experiences with Grief

36:06 Tools for Healing: Mind, Body, and Spirit

40:41 Yoga and Meditation Myths

43:39 Embracing Change and Growth

48:34 Finding Joy in New Beginnings

Ioana Chei Transcript

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (00:00)

We are welcoming Iwana K, a therapist. Welcome to the conversation.

Ioana Chei (00:05)

Thank you, Melanie. It's really nice to be here.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (00:09)

Wonderful. We're going to focus on resilience, self-compassion, and general compassion today. Let's dive right in, and it would be great if you could tell the listeners what you do for a work and then we'll look at how you developed resilience in your own personal experience.

Ioana Chei (00:31)

Well, Melanie, I'm a licensed psychotherapist and a mindset coach. And I mainly work with families and with children and their families. And I also work with adults, especially on mindset, but also in therapy. And we do focus on resilience and self-compassion. And I was thinking that

Ioana Chei (00:59)

Lately, self-compassion is something that came out a lot in my sessions. And yeah, I help guide them through life and through challenges that arise.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (01:14)

Wonderful. So, how long have you been doing this work?

Ioana Chei (01:17)

In my private practice for about eight years, and I've been working in associations before that and in a public school. I was working with kids in a public school, yeah.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (01:35)

Nice.

What sort of age group did you work with at a school?

Ioana Chei (01:41)

It was a diverse group because I worked in a special needs school, and I had kids; it was sixth grade, but the ages varied from 10 to 12. Yeah.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (02:06)

What sorts of special needs did you see over there?

Ioana Chei (02:09)

They were combined from mental difficulties, even physical ones. I had vision impairment and hearing impairment. Yeah, but the common ground was the mental deficiency.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (02:33)

Okay, so all of them had some sort of difference in how their minds worked compared to the mainstream.

Ioana Chei (02:40)

Yes.

Yes.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (02:43)

I think we'll look at that a little bit later, because that's definitely something to learn from. But I'm really keen to hear about your personal story so we can learn more about you as a person as well. So would you like to share what we talked about a bit before we started recording? I'd love to hear more about how you developed resilience.

Ioana Chei (03:03)

Yeah, that's a story I don't share very often because I'm the one who listens to the stories but doesn't tell the stories. But I did go through a really difficult time at some point in my life about 10 years ago. I was a bit of an avoider anyway, being more of an observer in my own life than an action taker. But 10 years ago, almost 11, my father passed away. And it was a bit of a shock. We didn't expect it. And it was really hard to navigate. I was pregnant at the time, so that made things even more difficult. And after I gave birth, of course, the baby blues came in.

And then I experienced depression. So for a couple of years, it was really hard for me and for my husband and for the whole family because I was not present. I wasn't there. I was not happy. I was just walking through life with difficulty. And I decided to go to therapy at some point.

And you would say I would have gone earlier as a therapist. I know the importance of that, but I just couldn't pull myself together and just do that. So a couple of years passed by, and then I went to therapy, and bit by bit, I started developing this resilience and confronting my dark sides and confronting the sides that I don't like and starting to accept them and see them for what they are, sides of me that want to protect me, that want the best for me. So I stopped.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (05:14)

What sorts of sides were you needing to accept?

Ioana Chei (05:20)

That's a very good question. Those sides that were scared, I didn't like to be scared. I thought that made me weak. The weak side of me, I hated that side. I wanted to be strong. These types of sides that made me... in my own mind and in my own eyes feel weak and unworthy. Right? So I started to accept that and see that my scared side was trying to protect me, was trying to tell me something. I started listening to what it had to say and integrate it in the whole. And that felt so much better. And I started to be more present and accept the hard times in my life as normal parts of my life that I can handle. So I built confidence and I built resilience, and of course, I built self-compassion, and I looked at myself with different eyes, more kind eyes.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (06:37)

That's amazing. So what sorts of things were you scared of?

Ioana Chei (06:41)

I was scared of everything. After my kid was born, I realised I'm not a scary, scared person. I'm not, I don't have fears of height or things like this, physical anxiety. But after my kid was born, I was scared of going out and meeting more people and uncertainty and new situations and places. And I had to document everything, every step. And I realised that when my kid once asked me, 'Are we going to handle buying two pretzels?' And, I said, because he sensed my insecurity, right? For me, it was so difficult to do anything new and out of my comfort zone, out of my safe space. So that's when I realised, I got to do something about this. And the more I build confidence in myself, the more the fear melts. And I realised no matter how uncertain a situation is, I will be able to handle it. But yeah, it was a time of deep insecurity.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (08:17)

I'm wondering from a professional and personal perspective, I'm curious about what it is that happens to young mothers that can prompt the depression because it happens to so many, and it could be, it could manifest in different forms and it could be anxiety, it could be different things, but it sounds like there are those fears because, what I'm guessing it could be is that, especially when it's your first time being a parent, you're in a new situation that you haven't had to navigate and you don't have any past experience to draw upon to navigate that moment. But I'm guessing there could be other things happening as well. What do you think it is that makes this so common?

Ioana Chei (09:09)

That is a very big part of it, right? It's all so new, and you feel so overwhelmed with everything that has to happen. And even if you did see other mothers, you didn't see the whole thing, the whole picture. And you start to encounter all these sorts of things that you didn't expect. But also, it's a life, a new life that depends on you. And that can be scary, right? If anything happens to me, this little small life, what happens to it, right? To the little baby. And that's another side of it. But also, the depression can come from the fact that even though you gained this beautiful life, this beautiful baby that's yours, and you love him or her with all of your heart, you lost your whole life. You lost so many sides of it. And your main role is as a mother. And for a period of time, all the other rules are suspended somewhere.

Right? You don't get to be the friend; the social side of you is gone. The explorer is gone, and all these sides of you that you loved are put on hold. And that's kind of a loss. And it doesn't...

help that people don't really talk about it. They just talk about how wonderful it is to be a mother and how happy you should be. And they look at you funny when you say you're sad and they see you cry, right?

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (11:27)

Yes, especially because some people wait a long time to become a parent, or some people think that we should just be grateful that it happened. But that doesn't allow space for the change and the loss of the old lifestyle. This is beyond just identity. There are some things that, at least for a while, you can't do as much as you used to, so it could lead to isolation. And I'm wondering if this is essentially a form of grief.

Ioana Chei (12:00)

It is. That's why I use the word loss because it is. It has to do with grief, too. You're grieving your past life, your past self. And it's hard. It's hard because there are a few people that can actually hold space for that, for a mother.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (12:23)

There are. So did you find that even if you were talking to people who are parents, that maybe they don't want to have those real conversations, it's just a bit more emotion than what they want to look at? And then there are the people who have never been parents, and they just can't imagine it.

Ioana Chei (12:44)

Both are accurate. The ones that have never been parents and I know myself before having kids, I couldn't have imagined all the emotions and all the things that come with being a parent. So I can't wrap my head, people that don't have kids can't wrap their heads around all this. We are different, and even if we're experiencing the same life, the same age of kids, we are experiencing it differently. And some mothers don't want to talk about these feelings, and some mothers maybe don't have these feelings, right?

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (13:38)

True, is that partly because every child is different, so they might not be having the same experience?

Ioana Chei (13:44)

Yes, and that's another thing. You imagine your life with a child. You don't know how it's going to be, but you imagine something, and then the child comes, and it's so different and so much harder.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (14:00)

You don't know.

We can't know what we're getting into. So are you saying that no matter how many books we read, no matter how much preparation anyone might do before becoming a parent, there's no way to know the type of person, personality, various habits that that person that you're making is going to develop? So you don't know what your everyday life is going to be like until it happens.

Ioana Chei (14:32)

That is very true. And I'm not saying don't read the books, read the books. They give you some kind of structure and idea of what needs to get done. Yeah, the experiences can be so different. And there's another thing because one of my clients came and said, you know, every parent should go to therapy before having a kid, right?

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (14:36)

Yes.

Ioana Chei (15:00)

Solve our older issues and be prepared for a kid. But the thing is, no matter how much you go to therapy, when the kid comes, they discover new buttons that you had no idea were there. So, yeah. And again, I'm not...

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (15:16)

Yes.

So in reality, that could.

Ioana Chei (15:22)

Sorry, go ahead.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (15:25)

In reality, that means you don't know if maybe you will be dealing with a fussy eater and you'll be cooking a whole lot more than you would have, or you don't know if you'll have someone who is going to have insomnia for years. This isn't just, you know, it will be partly personalities, and the buttons could be triggers. They will trigger something within you, but

To some extent, you don't know what your lifestyle is going to be. It's so hard to know how you'll shape your work or your social life or the things that made you, you around this new human.

Ioana Chei (16:03)

Yeah, that's exactly how things go.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (16:07)

So I'm wondering, did you actually? There's an important question. How did you regain aspects of yourself that maybe needed to go on pause after your child was born?

Ioana Chei (16:25)

Hmm. That's a very good question because in our country, I live in Romania, and we have a leave for raising our kids for almost two years. It's like 22 months or something like that. And yeah, it's really nice because we get to spend this time with the kids.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (16:43)

NUTS!

Ioana Chei (16:54)

But on the other hand, we can be a part of the real world for two years. That's a possibility unless we actually do something about it, and we engage in social life because we want to. So that was one of the difficulties when my kid was seven months old, I decided to go for a training in clinical psychology. Once because I wanted to learn all the things that were taught there, but also because I needed something for myself. And I needed this time away from my house and with other people, and I realised my language abilities were pretty poor. Although I talked to my kid and to my husband, it wasn't at the level that I used to. So I had to regain that ⁓ during the training and during my interactions with other people.

And step by step, I started to go out into the world, and the more I went to therapy and my anxiety melted, the more I could go out and meet new people and meet my old friends and so on. But it was a difficult transition from staying at home with my kid all the time. We did go out, but we didn't meet so many people, to having my own group and meeting my own people.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (18:56)

Right. It really takes a while because when they are that tiny, they need you constantly. And so it's a while before you can even be with people a bit more.

Ioana Chei (19:08)

Yeah, that is very true. I used to meet my good friend who had a daughter that was the same age, and we would talk and chat, and we would be with the kids, and they would play. So that was a thing that I had, and I'm grateful for that because it really helped me to be in connection with somebody.

But yeah, it takes a while until you can leave your kid at home and just go out. No worries aside.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (19:47)

For sure.

Yes. That takes time. So I wanted to pivot a little bit and I'm wondering how did, how did parenthood change your perspective on psychology and also extra needs, because I'm very fascinated by your past work in schools. So I'm wondering if you have any insights because were you, sorry,

To clarify, were you working in a school before you became a parent?

Ioana Chei (20:18)

I did, yeah. I worked in school before I became a parent, and then after I became a parent, I didn't go back. So I don't have the experience of being a parent and working in school, but it did.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (20:20)

Yes.

You didn't do both at the same time, but you did both at different times. And I'm wondering what you can say to parents who are interacting with schools and maybe need. So, you know what it's like to work in a school and not be a parent. And sometimes when you're a parent, a lot of these things feel normal because it's your everyday life and trying to explain it to school workers, teachers, anyone else when they can't imagine the perspective of a parent, how would you go about explaining the reality, the mindset, the needs of a parent to people who work in schools who might not have had that experience?

Ioana Chei (21:22)

Hmm, that would be an awesome thing to be done, actually, in schools. I met really empathetic people when I worked in school, and the teachers were empathetic, and my kid's teacher is amazing. And yeah, it's different when you are a parent.

And what I would tell teachers, I think, is that sometimes the overwhelm is real.

And when there are behavioural issues and things that stand out with kids, maybe explore a little bit the whole perspective, the whole world, and not only what the parent does at home, but also how the parent feels, because that influences a lot the behavioural and emotional world of the kid.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (22:42)

So how they feel will influence things. Have you ever felt exhausted and tired from the juggle, and you are a practising therapist, and by this point, your child must be how old?

Ioana Chei (22:59)

Ten. His ten.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (23:01)

10.

So you have a 10-year-old and your own practice. So I'm not going into the whole juggle question, but I'm curious about the exhaustion because I know that it's so different compared to just having a job and not having a family. I'm wondering, do you need to do more to keep your energy?

Ioana Chei (23:27)

Yeah, with time, I learned how to make the transition from work to home and leave things at work, the things that need to be left at work, leave them there. And I use walking and nature a lot to do this transition. And I do use notebooks to leave all the thoughts there.

And everything that needs to be done tomorrow will be done tomorrow, not tonight at home. And I'm not always doing that, but I'm progressing. But the exhaustion is still there. And sometimes I go home exhausted, and my kid takes me as new. That's how we call it here.

They take you as new. That means that they see you for the first time in the day. Well, maybe not the first time because we do see each other in the morning, but for the first time in the afternoon, and they want to play with you. They want to do things with you. They want to tell you everything. They want to be there. And I want to eat.

Ioana Chei (24:55)

Really, that's what I need, actually. And some parents might want to take a shower or go to the bathroom or just sit for 10 minutes and think of nothing, but they can't really. Now that he's 10, I can say, you know, I really need to eat because you know me. And then...

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (24:58)

Yes!

You can't not eat, you have to eat.

Ioana Chei (25:24)

Yeah, I really have to eat. And it was a while until I noticed why I'm so grumpy. Because I haven't eaten. So, yeah, he knows that now, and he gives me space for 10 minutes to eat, and then he comes and we play and we do all these things. But you can get angry if you're not paying attention to these small things.

What do I need as a parent to regulate my nervous system, to regulate my emotions and to be present, to shake everything that happened over the day and be here in this moment?

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (26:09)

For sure. You have to prioritise the little things and the basic needs. At what age did you know that everybody is different, but how long ago did you gain the freedom to say, I need 10 minutes to eat.

Ioana Chei (26:24)

And I don't think it was necessarily about his age, but mostly about my willingness to allow myself that time. Because there are two, yeah, there are two factors, you know, if I, if I as a parent think, I, he's…

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (26:41)

Right, you needed to speak up.

Ioana Chei (26:52)

So important and I need to be there, and I'll eat later, then I'll do that, but it won't come out pretty. I'm gonna get mad and so on. And then I'm gonna say, you know, I left my food for this. Well, maybe you should take 10 minutes and then be rested and well and have a good time instead of fighting. So it was more about that - my willingness to give myself that space and that time. But he did start to get it around seven.

Yeah.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (27:37)

Good, good. I'm sure it's different for everybody. So let's go back to, we'll go back to the depression story now. And I wanted to really explore how, how all people, how everybody can get the compassion. And do you think that in all of the struggle of getting into a new life stage, do you think that we do need to forgive ourselves for it taking a while to adjust to a new life stage of any sort.

Ioana Chei (28:12)

Yeah. I think we need to forgive ourselves. We need to give ourselves grace, to be patient with ourselves, to have compassion, as I said, because we're humans. And sometimes we treat ourselves as if we're not, as if we're robots, and we need to do things.

Right and perfect. And when I ask my clients, you know, how would you treat your friend if they had the same struggle? The perspective shifts, right? Well, I wouldn't tell them this. I wouldn't treat them like this. Then why do you treat yourself like this?

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (29:02)

No. We speak worse to ourselves than we would to other people.

Ioana Chei (29:12)

Yes, yes, we are so much more harsh on ourselves than we are on other people. And sometimes we're harsh with other people, too. But when I see someone that's harsh with someone else, I can only imagine how harsh they are with themselves.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (29:29)

Yes.

Right.

Ioana Chei (29:39)

Because it's three levels higher.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (29:44)

My goodness. Do you think that's a way to have some patience with people who are too critical, knowing they are probably even more critical about themselves?

Ioana Chei (29:54)

Yes, it does help to see things this way. And that doesn't mean allow them to speak poorly to you, but it does bring a level of understanding and repositioning ourselves in relation to that person.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (30:16)

Absolutely. Absolutely. So you deal with probably all sorts of therapy. I'm wondering, okay, let's get to these serious, extra serious questions. So if someone is feeling depressed now, let's, let's actually zoom in on grief specifically, because I think now I'm not an expert IQR, but I think that we're all going to grieve.

something or someone sometime because everybody dies eventually, or even if we grieve a job that we are no longer doing, we all end up having a change that can be overwhelming. So I'm wondering, how can anyone look after themselves and feel better again, somehow? Is it about allowing a timeline, allowing months or years to adjust, or what else can people do?

Ioana Chei (31:20)

Well, it's not only about time, but time does count because sometimes we expect to be up and about in a day or two, and it doesn't work like that. We do need to allow ourselves to grieve. And sometimes what happens is that people allow time, like I read that six months is a good period of time to grieve, and that's the normal amount. But they don't actually grieve in that time. Right? I just allow six months to feel better, but I don't allow myself to cry or to process the loss. And that's necessary. know, allow yourself to cry if you feel like crying, allow yourself to... to stay with the feelings. And yeah, six months is in a book, but it can be more or it can be less. And give yourself that grace that you are you, and it could be different for you. It could be eight months. It could be, right? Don't put a timer on it and expect it to be on time.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (32:56)

That's true. So a year after something happens, you could still be processing that, and it's okay.

Ioana Chei (33:03)

You could, and it's okay, but it does need, I would evaluate how, what intensity is the filling? Is it going down or is it going up? Because that could lead to more difficulties, and it does need intervention. But yeah, it could be a year, and the pain is still there.

And when you lose someone, a person, you always feel that you miss them. And it's on and off, and you can go ahead and not think about it, or you can find yourself crying in the bathroom. So it's...

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (33:38)

Thanks

Ioana Chei (33:53)

It's different for everybody. Don't expect it to be like in the books.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (33:55)

Yes.

So, when did you have that loss, losing a family member? How close was it? Was it before or after? When exactly was it? And how close was it to having the birth?

Ioana Chei (34:12)

I was four months pregnant when my dad passed away. Yeah.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (34:15)

wow.

That would be so intense because you have all the hormones and changes and the emotional journey of being pregnant, while also feeling that grief at the same time. No wonder you didn't feel okay.

Ioana Chei (34:38)

Yeah, it was really hard, and it didn't help that everyone else around me wanted to help. They wanted to be helpful and kept telling me, 'You need to be strong for the baby, and you need to stop crying.' You know, I needed to cry. I needed to be weak. I needed to just feel my feelings.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (35:03)

I can really relate to that feeling of just being expected to simply carry on because I lost a grandmother during the pandemic, and we're all just in survival mode, just get through the next day and the next day. And there wasn't really any time or opportunity to just, well, react. And so for me, I found those emotions coming out.

A year later, and I finally had a moment when it wasn't as much survival mode compared to the lockdowns. So what I'm saying is that I can imagine a lot of people would have an experience like yours, where maybe they are in a high-pressure job, or they have a really busy life, a big family, whatever it might be. And we just keep going and going and going, and maybe we don't give ourselves time to just process, react and basically feel.

Ioana Chei (36:06)

Yeah, it's true. We go on autopilot and we do the things, we keep moving, and that keeps us ⁓ in the avoidance mode because we don't confront the feelings. They will come up eventually in the body or in the mind or in the behavior, they will show up.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (36:32)

You talk about the body, the mind and the behaviour. I'm wondering, are there other tools that you recommend to go alongside therapy to help to feel better? You mentioned going into nature. Do you do anything else, any spiritual practices, anything else to clear the mind?

Ioana Chei (36:53)

I do meditate and I practice yoga for about five years and that helped a lot with everything, clear my head, get out of that restless mood and quiet the body and the mind and also improve.

Ioana Chei (37:51)

I was talking about the meditation and practising yoga that really helped to quiet the mind, to quiet the body, get out of that restless mode, and really bring calmness into my life. And also, what I found lately were these somatic practices with the body that help the body feel safe, and then the body will send that message to the mind, and that's I'm sorry

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (38:34)

What does that involve?

What is the somatic practice?

Ioana Chei (38:41)

their practices with our body that are really slow, and they stimulate the vagus nerve ⁓ which really brings us into that relaxation mode, that safe space.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (39:01)

What do you do for it? Is that having a shake? Is it movement? Is it something else?

Ioana Chei (39:07)

It's also the shakes, massage, breathing, and all those practices that have to do with body stretching, different types of stretching. Yeah.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (39:29)

Awesome. So.

Ioana Chei (39:30)

So I recommend all that besides therapy because it's like a whole. use our mind, we use our body, and they're connected, and it's important to pay attention to all of them.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (39:48)

Definitely, definitely. I would love to get your perspective as a psychologist on yoga in particular, because I do support meditation. I think that a lot of people know that we can be mindful by meditating. And I wanted to bust some myths for a moment because before I started practising yoga, I thought you had to; it's all those myths that I feel embarrassed to say now.

I incorrectly assumed you have to be flexible. You have to maybe not have any injuries. didn't realise that anyone can practice yoga, and I didn't understand how it really can settle the mind and help. Just it clears us up in a way that I can't even completely explain, but it really does. So what's your experience with that, especially with your professional background?

Ioana Chei (40:41)

I understand all the myths. I had all the thoughts when I went in the first time, and the yoga teacher started the meditation, a short meditation, and I was under the impression I would never be able to meditate because my head is in so many places.

And in that moment, I was thinking, where did I put my shoes? Did I put them in the right place? Right? All these sorts of thoughts. And it's like meditating doesn't mean you don't have to think at all. It's not about that. And I actually explained that to my clients when I work with them and mentioned meditation, because they're kind of scared of it. I can't really not think of anything. Well, that's not the point. But yeah, the experience was of, you know, as we talked about self-compassion, think yoga was one of the factors that helped me grow self-compassion. Because the teacher would always say, You know, you don't need to do things like the people around you.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (41:59)

Why how?

Ioana Chei (42:08)

And each one of us is different, and it's okay to be different and just be where you are right now. And that was really helpful. Yeah. It was really, really helpful. And that's the attitude that I took with me from the classes. And I...

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (42:16)

Yes.

Ioana Chei (42:31)

I used it in my own, in my relationship with myself and in my relationship with other people. Because when you're self-compassionate, you're compassionate to others too.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (42:44)

Yes. You don't have to do everything exactly the same as everybody else. And that's the benefit of being in a group when you are doing any sort of practice, because although you are focusing on what you are doing, you will also see that there might be options, the easy option, the difficult option. And it's okay if you're not perfect at the difficult option.

It's okay. You're not passing and failing here. That's the thing we all grow up. Do you agree? grew up with, mentioned earlier, also that we treat ourselves almost like robots. Like we have to, I think there's a perfectionism in this culture. And in a way, some of these practices remind us that some things in life are not a pass and fail. Do you think so?

Ioana Chei (43:16)

Exactly.

Yes, definitely. But I learned that really late in life, that it's okay to make mistakes, that it's okay not to be at the same level if there are levels in life, that it's okay to be where you are. And the...

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (43:47)

Yes.

Ioana Chei (44:04)

An amazing thing that happened was because I loved it so much in yoga, and because I stuck with it for so many years. Now I can see the little steps that I made where they got me. Now I'm the one who does the heart poses in class, right? And I progressed so much and I started

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (44:28)

Yes!

Ioana Chei (44:33)

really late in life, right? 35, that's like you're old for yoga. That was the impression. Oh, I'm not flexible and I'll never be because I'm old, right? And it's not like that at all. Sure.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (44:42)

Wow.

Let's visit that for a second. I'm 36, and it's so odd being in our mid-thirties because anyone who is, sorry, anyone who's twice that age will say, 'You're not old.' You're so young, but you compare yourself to the 20-year-olds. And you realise I'm not that young person anymore. I don't have the same freedom.

And so it's like what we're saying before, being a different person. You, did you have to sort of adjust to realise you're in a different stage of life?

Ioana Chei (45:28)

I still do. This year I turned 40, so that was a shocker. When did I get here? Thank you. But yeah, it took a while to adapt and realise I'm not 20 anymore. But the...

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (45:40)

You don't look 40!

Ioana Chei (45:56)

A cool thing is that because I study yoga, I can do so many things that I couldn't do when I was 20. So I keep myself young in the spirit.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (46:09)

You're back. You dropped for a second.

Ioana Chei (46:09)

I know what happened. I lost you for a moment. Yeah.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (46:14)

But so, it will sort that out. But you're saying that you can do some things that you couldn't do when you were 20. So maybe part of finding the joy of getting a little bit older in life just a bit is that we can do new experiences. So even though life might be different, we could have a family, we might simply look different from how we were, we can still learn how to practice yoga, we can lose weight if we want to, we can learn a new skill or try a new job. I mean, you switched to a different profession after becoming a mother. So, it sounds like we can still have a sense of novelty and freshness and health, even as we are becoming a different age.

Ioana Chei (47:06)

Yes, because we're becoming different people, actually, and we like new things, and we discover new things, and it's amazing. I was just talking to my husband, we both turned 40 this year, and it's like we're having the best times of our lives right now because we're better with ourselves, and we experience new things that we wouldn't have.

So it's really amazing, yeah.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (47:35)

Definitely.

So there's a real sense of joy. When we started talking, you mentioned the self-compassion of getting back on track, but it sounds like finding the joy and fun and learning new things can actually, I feel like we're both just smiling even more, talking about that. It's great fun. I think that sometimes life felt really short, or I know when I was 20, I couldn't even imagine being mid-thirties, I couldn't picture it in my head. So we can't imagine what we're going to be at. Okay, let's go ahead and say it and our forties, fifties or beyond, but we're seeing that people are doing great things at all ages, really. So maybe that's a reassurance to you to think that, whichever age someone is in right now, they can be a new person and start again and do anything.

Ioana Chei (48:34)

Yes, I love that mindset because we are always evolving, and I love evolving. It's one of my passions to learn things and develop as I age. And my mom was so funny because I registered for a new training and she said, 'When are you going to end?'

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (49:00)

What is it?

Ioana Chei (49:03)

This new training

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (49:03)

What is it?

Ioana Chei (49:07)

Well, the mindset coaching, when I registered for it, she said, 'When are you going to stop?' And I was like, probably when I'm dead. I'm not sure. I don't know what's beyond it, but probably then. Because I love evolving and growing, and there are always new things to learn, and there are always new ways to grow.

So it doesn't matter what age you are.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (49:36)

For sure. I want to wind up this chat by giving reassurance to people who maybe have not reached this creative and mindful joy that we're exploring. And of course, it's different every day. But for those who are maybe still in those phases of grief and depression, what would you say to those people to encourage them that they can, at some point, find the joy of curiosity and leave their next chapter?

Ioana Chei (50:12)

First, I would say it's there waiting, and it's worth it. And second, but as important, is that it's about the little steps. It doesn't have to be climbing Mount Everest. It needs to be what's the next little step that will get you there. Just patience and baby steps.

We'll get there.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (50:44)

Step by step. Thank you so much for talking and for sharing your story and your knowledge. Thanks.

Ioana Chei (50:54)

Thank you so much for having me, Melanie. It was a pleasure.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (50:58)

It has been.

Summary

In this conversation, Jodie Atkinson shares her profound journey through grief following the loss of her husband. She discusses the unexpected ways grief manifested in her life, the importance of understanding and processing grief, and the need for compassionate conversations around loss. Jodie emphasises the significance of support, both in seeking help and in providing it to others and introduces the Grief Recovery Method as a valuable tool for healing. Through her personal experiences, she highlights the complexities of grief, the loneliness it can bring, and the journey of rediscovering oneself after loss.

Jodie Atkinson Show Notes

Keywords

grief, loss, healing, support, mental health, grief recovery, emotional journey, compassion, personal story, understanding grief

Summary

In this conversation, Jodie Atkinson shares her profound journey through grief following the loss of her husband. She discusses the unexpected ways grief manifested in her life, the importance of understanding and processing grief, and the need for compassionate conversations around loss. Jodie emphasises the significance of support, both in seeking help and in providing it to others and introduces the Grief Recovery Method as a valuable tool for healing. Through her personal experiences, she highlights the complexities of grief, the loneliness it can bring, and the journey of rediscovering oneself after loss.

Takeaways

Grief can manifest in unexpected ways, including panic attacks and anxiety.

The sudden loss of a loved one can drastically change life plans.

Anniversaries can bring heightened emotions and anticipation of grief.

People often move on with their lives while the grieving person feels stuck.

Grieving involves mourning not just the person lost but also the self that has changed.

Support and therapy are crucial in navigating grief.

Finding the right support system can make a significant difference in healing.

The Grief Recovery Method offers practical tools for processing grief.

Moving forward with grief means carrying the memories and experiences with you.

Compassionate conversations about grief can help normalise the experience.

Sound bites

"We were supposed to get married on the weekend."

"Your life is full of the potholes left behind."

"You can't outrun your grief."

Chapters

00:00 Understanding Grief: A Personal Journey

01:56 The Impact of Sudden Loss

05:59 Navigating Life After Loss

08:00 Anniversaries and Their Emotional Weight

09:36 The Loneliness of Grief

11:39 Grieving the Loss of Self

13:02 Making Decisions in Grief

14:57 Finding Support and Therapy

18:28 The Importance of Processing Grief

23:43 Discovering the Grief Recovery Method

27:09 Moving Forward with Grief

29:39 The Need for Compassionate Conversations

34:55 Living with Grief

40:58 Supporting Others in Grief

Jodie Atkinson Transcript

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (00:03)

Hello Jodie, welcome to the show.

I'd like to dive right in and explore your perspective. So basically, you talk a lot about grief. What can you tell the audience about your understanding of grief?

Jodie Atkinson (00:33)

My understanding of grief changed significantly, like overnight, when I landed in a hole and really learned a thing or two about grief firsthand and the hard way. Yeah, well, my husband died in 2019 after a really short period of time from diagnosis to his death, and it was just horrendous, and grief showed up for me in the form of panic attacks, fear and anxiety, and I would not have thought that would be the case. So I started to share my story and share what I was experiencing, and discovered that a lot of people were learning a lot about grief through my experience because of what I shared. And that is kind of what prompted me to write the book. I had a lot of people saying, 'You should write a book about this.' Yeah, that's become my new pathway now. My passion is to create grief literacy. Understanding and a more compassionate society by understanding how grief can impact us.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (02:01)

Amazing. So, let's talk through the story and the journey of what happened, and how you found the lighter at the end of the tunnel after what happened.

Jodie Atkinson (02:16)

Yeah. So you know how life is just going along nicely and you think you've got it all relatively mapped out and you kind of have a sense of where you're going and what you're going to be, you know, where you're going to be in 10, 15, 20 years. And then suddenly, life has other plans for you and delivers a stage four metastatic pancreatic cancer diagnosis.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (02:16)

Yeah.

Jodie Atkinson (02:46)

Out of the blue. And when I say out of the blue, my husband had been experiencing very vague health symptoms like a sore back and some indigestion. So, fairly generic kind of things that you would equate to life in your 50s, right? We've all had a sore back at some point, and we all probably suffer from indigestion from time to time. But it wasn't going away. And finally, going to a doctor who listened and sent him off for a scan showed that he had cancer spots all over his pancreas and liver. So he was stage four, and we didn't even know.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (03:33)

Stage four means… what's involved in stage four?

Jodie Atkinson (03:37)

Well, there's not a lot that can be done. This treatment, but the treatment we were given was basically to give us more time, because survival rates with pancreatic cancer are incredibly low. I think it's around about 10 % will survive after five years, and most people will die in the first 12 months after diagnosis. So it's a very aggressive, silent cancer and again vague symptoms present, which you may not think are related to cancer. So I'm always very quick to say to people, if you've got a sore back or you've got something that's not going away and seems to be problematic, don't take no for an answer from your doctor. Push and push and push and ask for a more thorough examination because you just never know. So Craig took on chemo treatment to give us more time, but we ended up with just 37 days, and it was really just from the moment we started treatment things just went downhill really quickly and changed and he, yeah, he just became quite, like really unwell, out of breath, a strong, fit, healthy, active man, not, and deteriorating like over that couple of weeks. And then he went into the hospital ⁓ after a temperature spike after chemo treatment, and we were supposed to get married on the weekend. We had to bring our wedding forward, and we were married in a hospital. Yeah, and the next day he died.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (05:48)

You got married the day before your husband died.

Jodie Atkinson (05:51)

Mm. Yeah. We... Sorry?

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (05:53)

With that as a headline or that should be the caption of something, your book, that blows my mind. You got… you married your husband the day before he died. Let's look at that. That's a big thing to do.

Jodie Atkinson (06:09)

Yeah, look, it was something we wanted to do and we did because we'd been together for a really long time and we weren't married. I had been married once before, but you know, things ain't broke, you don't fix it, right? And we were quite happy with the way things were, but you know, things like this throw all your priorities into a completely different lineup. Things that you thought, well, we will do that one day, suddenly became, no, we need to do this now. And I can't even tell you what I was worried about at that time. There would have been something that I would have been, something pressing, but I couldn't even tell you what it is because this just came out of the blue and became our whole life became about medical appointments and medications and planning and making sure our fares were in order and all of that kind of stuff. So we set a meeting date, and of course, because it had to come forward, we're just really glad that, well, I am really glad that we got to do that. We achieved a lot in 37 days.

Yeah, and I'm really grateful. The downside of that is that you celebrate your first wedding anniversary on your own. Did not think that through, but

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (07:29)

He did.

Jodie Atkinson (07:46)

Yeah, very grateful that we got to do that, and, you know, he's the love of my life. Yeah, I wouldn't change anything in regard to that if I had to do it again. If I had my time over again, I think we would do a lot of things very differently, knowing if the outcome was going to be the same.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (08:13)

How did you handle the anniversary?

Jodie Atkinson (08:17)

Because of the anniversary, our wedding anniversary and his death anniversary the next day, I pretty well think I took the week out of life. think I just said I'm pretty well just tapping out for a week because it's going to get a bit tricky. But the anticipation of those days I found was quite worse than the actual days themselves. You know, the lead-up to it, knowing that it was coming. Yeah.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (08:53)

So the anticipation, are you saying that the narrative in the mind can be part of the pain?

Jodie Atkinson (09:01)

Yeah, I think it's just like the first of everything coming up after someone, you know, dies is always a tricky space because it's like, you know, it's not reliving it, but you are, you know, it's an anniversary. It's another year. It's a, you know, it just keeps time keeps going. And, but for you, it kind of feels like it's a long time and a short time at exactly the same time, and it's quite weird. Yeah, it's really bizarre.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (09:30)

I can really understand that. And also, I have a question about this. And this is really interesting, just exploring, exploring grief here. Because a few years after someone is gone, do you find that everybody else has just got on with life? They're all just in their own worlds, but you're still thinking about it.

Jodie Atkinson (09:54)

In their own worlds, but you're still thinking about it. That happens a lot. Find, you know, I talk to people all the time that say, you know, everyone's moved on and or they say things like, oh, are you not over that yet? And that's sort of like, you know, one of those things that is really hard to hear when you're in that space, because yes, you're right, their life has moved on.

But your life is full of the potholes left behind. So all the little things that people don't get is the morning routines, the evening routines, the weekend stuff that you did together, know, their jobs, your jobs, like it all becomes your job. And there's a lot of things that, like layers and layers and layers of the intimacy of that relationship from cups of coffee to, you know, walks on the beach or, you know, and, and since nights on the couch watching a movie, just those absence, those moments of where you feel those absences, like people don't feel that unless it's their situation. So when people say, 'Are you not over it yet?' You know, it's like, yeah, I can't even watch TV the same way anymore. And my whole routine has changed. And I don't do things that I used to do, and I don't like things that I used to like. So yeah, like, is it any wonder that I'm not quite, you know, put together again the way you might hope that I would be. And I'm saying that on behalf of, you know, every person that's going through this stuff because I lost Craig to cancer six years ago, and I've been really passionate about trying to change the conversation we have around grief.

And people now who are just brand new, landing in this space, are hearing the same things. So there's a lot of work to be done here. Melanie, a lot of work.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (11:56)

There is, there's a lot. And I think the common thread that I'm seeing is that when you have a severe experience and your whole life changes, then people can't see from the outside the little details that accumulate to form a completely different life that you're trying to navigate.

Jodie Atkinson (12:04)

Is that when you have a severe experience and your whole life changes, people can't see from the outside the little details that accumulate to form a completely different life that you're trying to navigate?

It's just impossible because you're put back together a little differently when you go through something like that. And from the outside, you probably look the same and you probably sound the same, but things are different. And I think when you know yourself intimately, you'd like, you know, you have a really good sense of self. You are aware of those changes and those shifts. But I really think that an important part of

of the grieving process is grieving the you that you lost when that happened as well because you know I had a really I had a I was you know I had a pretty good sense of self and then suddenly I'm questioning my identity so I think there is it's you know it's a really valid thing to grieve not only the person and the life you had but the loss of your self yeah

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (13:30)

And the identity, it goes beyond the abstract because did you find that in wondering who am I now that things have changed? Did you find that you were wondering, okay, how am I going to make decisions as a totally different person when I barely even know the purpose of the next step? Was it trying to feel your way in the dark?

Jodie Atkinson (13:53)

Trying to feel your way in the dark. That's a really good way of putting it, I think, because you are literally going, well, who am I now? And I remember saying to my mum, What am I like? Because I had the W word floating around in my head, right? The widow word was in there, but I hadn't let those words hit the air yet. And so it wasn't real, right? And I sort of said to my mum, 'So what am I?' She said, 'What do you mean?' I said, 'Well, I'm not divorced. I'm not single. Am I still married? Like, what am I?' And, you know, then the 'widow' word came out, and it was like, ugh, like, I'm 46 years old, you know? Yeah, well, that's what I said. I was 46 years old. I never, never thought I would be a widow at 46. So it, and you know, my...

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (14:39)

Did it make you feel old?

Jodie Atkinson (14:51)

And my vision in my head at that point was, you know, a very different image of widowhood. You know, I'm, I'm not, I'm not old. I'm not, I'm not cloaked in black from head to toe. I'm not, you know, I just didn't, it didn't match up with my, my version of, of what the widow brought up in my mind. Yeah.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (15:20)

And for those who are listening on audio, I'm seeing a confident-looking, well-made-up, strong woman with funky hair who does not look like the stereotype of the widow. My gosh, those nails, that is the best pink on those nails.

Jodie Atkinson (15:24)

That saying - confidence. strong woman with funky hair. My, yes.

Yeah. So.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (15:44)

And yet we think that someone will just be a widow when they are probably in a nursing home. There are stereotypes about what we're going to become, and we don't know how to perhaps shape ourselves beyond the stereotypes.

Jodie Atkinson (15:50)

Yes.

Yeah, that's it. And I think, you know, trying to navigate that space and thinking, well, there's big decisions that have to be made, and I don't trust myself to make them. I don't think I'm in a place to make these big decisions. So I'm not going to. I'm just going to do what feels comfortable and safe right now. And I don't have the pressure of, you know, maybe some other people might have in this situation. Someone 46 years old being widowed, there are still people at 46 with kids in school and probably have a lot of different financial commitments and things. So I was in a position where my children were grown up. didn't have them; they weren't dependent. And I probably have a very different situation to a lot of women my age who might have had the same scenario. Saying that, it doesn't mean that I didn't have my own challenges with that. So I'm not trying to diminish my loss because I'm thinking other people might have it worse than me, but it's just looking at, you know, the broad different types of scenarios that play out.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (17:16)

It sounds like you were in a different life stage than other people your age. And I think that other listeners will be able to relate to that. think the equivalent that I can relate to is that it was very odd for me becoming a single parent in essentially my early thirties, knowing some people were only just thinking about settling down then and … me becoming a single parent in my early thirties, knowing some people were just thinking about settling down then, and your version of this is that in your forties, in your mid forties, you were in a lapse stage as a widow that maybe the other people around you, the other people around your age, maybe it's hard to...

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (17:45)

Your version of this is that in your 40s, in your mid-40s, you were in a life stage as a widow that maybe the other people around you, the other people around your age, maybe it's hard to, did you find it hard to find the common ground then because people are having totally different life experiences?

Jodie Atkinson (18:07)

I found it interesting, I think amongst my friendship group, I, you know, I was the first one that this, this, this had happened to, really, you know, friends are bad. As I said, I've been divorced before as well. like I'm super fun chick over here, but I, but I think, when you've got like people who can connect with you from a divorce scenario, is a little bit, it's a bit different, and some widowed people would really push back and be quite emphatic about it's not the same. And it is a different type of loss, but it is a loss after all. That's, I guess, where I sort of sit ⁓ in all this time. can see that. No loss is what one greater is greater than the other. Like everyone's loss is 100 per cent, and whether that is the death of someone close to you, it could be a parent, a child, a spouse, or a divorce, or the loss of your beloved pet. You know, people grieve this stuff, and it's not up to anyone else to say, well, that's not as bad as dot dot dot, because in that space and time, it's just the same hole we all fall in.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (19:29)

Grief is grief, and you're having different experiences, and I want to know, and a lot of people want to know what it's like for you to have a spouse die, and yet well, because everybody dies eventually, we're all going to have that feeling of someone we know is gone, and how is life going to look after that?

Jodie Atkinson (19:33)

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, and I guess a big thing that I encourage every single person going through any form of loss is to spend some time processing that in some form of support, therapy, counselling, whatever you want to call it, that works. Don't just go find something, find what works, because that will make the difference between feeling like you are stuck in this space and being able to actually see, okay, I can lift my head and see a way forward here. Because if you're doing something that doesn't feel right and is not aligned with you, you're wasting your time, your energy, your money. And if you're just feeling like it's adding to your emotional space in a negative way, it's not helpful. So finding what aligns and what works for you is incredibly important, and I am so grateful I found the thing that worked for me, and I certified in that program because it was so effective and powerful. And I think that is also a reason why I can do the work that I do in this space. Because if I was still, yeah, yeah.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (21:09)

Two questions around that. So what did you certify in? And I'm really curious, what types of therapies did you explore to realise that some things work and some don't work for you?

Jodie Atkinson (21:23)

So I was in such a state of complete meltdown, and I had big emotions, Melanie, I was scared of. I've never felt anxious, had panic attacks, or things like that before. And I've never felt this overwhelming sense of falling, like just literally the devastation. And I needed help, and I knew I needed help, and I told people I needed help. And it was sort of like, well, after the funeral or after, you know, and I was like, no, I don't want to wait. Like, I know that I need this now. I'm scared to be by myself with these big emotions. So I went to see my GP and she referred me to someone, and I'm, you know, I don't brand every type of clinician or therapist in this way, but this was my experience, so I just be really clear. And it just felt like I wasn't listened to, I was rushed. They fidgeted on their desk the whole time I was in their office; they didn't even look at me. It was quite horrendous. left that appointment in tears and sat and held my eyes out of my car because I couldn't drive. I was that upset. And I just thought I never want to go through anything like that again. It just felt like on top of what I'd been through, it literally felt like, you know, someone had cut me and squeezed lemon juice in the wound, you know, like it was on what you needed and actually listening to you with attention.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (23:15)

Sorry, it's like literally someone wasn't giving your giving your issue the focus. weren't. So to rephrase this, it seems like someone wasn't focusing on what you needed and actually listening to you with attention.

Jodie Atkinson (23:30)

No. And the parting words were along the lines, well, there's no way, there's nothing. There was a few phrases that they used and I couldn't tell you exactly all of them because I just remember, you can't drink it, you can't outdrink it, you can't out drug it, you can't out something, something, you just gotta get through it. And they were my parting words, and I just...

Yeah. You can imagine, I was already pretty emotionally vulnerable ⁓ and raw, that really, and I was scared because then I thought, well, how do I go out and look for support if I don't want to have that happen again? So it made me a little apprehensive and quite scared that I'm going to find it very difficult to find the support I need if this is the type of thing I'm going to come up against. So I don't blame anyone for not feeling like you want to go out the window shopping for a therapist when you've just had treatment of that kind. So I did have some ⁓ connection with the palliative care nurse that looked after Craig and I, because she did support me too. Yeah, and she was beautiful. And she put me in touch with a social worker through the palliative care unit. And we had phone sessions. I never met this person.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (24:47)

Good.

Jodie Atkinson (24:59)

Lovely, lovely person. It was more supportive, but our time got cut short because I think he was sort of filling in a role temporarily and had to go back to his other space. So I was given another person to work with, and I must have said something quite profound because the response I got then was, well, 'You're making good decisions, you're backing yourself, and that's how we kind of see that. Yeah, you're probably good to go.' Like, you know, we can probably call this our last session.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (25:35)

Yeah.

Did you feel ready to stop?

Jodie Atkinson (25:43)

That was just what I was going to say. What that felt like was like a little life raft suddenly just had the line cut from the mothership and sent out into this, you know, big wide ocean full of, you know, big waves and there I am, you know, rolling around in it again. Yeah, so, yes, it was a little bit like, now what, where do I go now? Because I don't still don't feel like I'm completely on board here. And then one day, was Father's Day in September 2019 of all days and I was meeting a friend for brunch and while I was waiting to leave, think I was just, I had a few minutes up my sleeve and I was scrolling on social media and I happened to be on one of the widow pages that I was following at the time because I was looking for anything. They told me I was experiencing normal something normal, somebody on there said, I'm a grief recovery specialist. And I was like, 'What is that?' So I got out of Facebook and jumped on Google and looked up what this grief recovery specialist was. And I discovered this program called the Grief Recovery Method. And everything I read about it, I just felt it just spoke to me. It just aligned. It was like, I felt like it was literally everything that I wanted presented, here you go, this is what you need to go forward.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (27:27)

What does that look like?

Jodie Atkinson (27:29)

The grief recovery method. It is an evidence-based program. It is a process of tools and actions that you take to process your grief, your relationship. And it addresses all of the things that people say to you that are really unhelpful. And it addresses all of the things that push back on everything we're told about grief and what we should or shouldn't do and how we should or shouldn't feel and what we should or shouldn't say or behave like. And it was just like, how is this the first time I'm learning about this? Because this makes so much sense. How is it we don't know more about it? And it was these, I have to say, it was the second hardest thing I've ever had to do.

Right? Second hardest, the first hardest, obviously losing Craig and being with him at that time, and the second hardest was making the decision to actively heal from it.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (28:32)

Second hardest.

So it sounds like a big part of your journey and recovery has been overcoming other people's misunderstandings about what you're experiencing and what you need.

Jodie Atkinson (29:02)

Yes, but I'm not alone in that. You know, a lot of people go through the same stuff. Like I said, six years later, I'm still having conversations with people who said, 'This person said this to me, can you believe they said that?' I go, yes, I can believe they said it because I know that's what they say. But I am, you know, I'm trying to chip away at making changes to this space as best I can. And, you know, the more we talk about it, the more we educate, the more we inform, the more we take away that discomfort and that taboo and that stigma around it, just like any ⁓ other condition or mental health or anything where people find it, they're fearful of it because they don't understand it.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (29:55)

You think people are fearing what they don't understand. That's opening my eyes a lot because I think that with any experience that's not every day, I think that it can be a little bit isolating when people think that they know, people are just assuming based on their own frame of reference, based on what they are familiar with. And if they haven't seen what you've seen, then

Jodie Atkinson (29:58)

That's opening my eyes a lot because I think that with any experience that's not every day, I think that it can feel a bit isolating, people just assume based on their own frame of reference, based on what they are familiar with, and if they haven't seen what you've seen then I think the risk of when people are telling you this is what you're dealing with, this is your solution but they haven't even seen it. So that's where the mismatch is. Yeah, it is because I think it was a Shakespearean quote. I've used this in my book, like anyone can cure grief, but he who has it.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (30:23)

I think the risk is when people are telling you this is what you're dealing with. This is your solution when they haven't even seen it. So that's where the mismatch is.

Jodie Atkinson (30:43)

And it's about, you know, that intellectual comments that people make about, you know, well, they're in a better place or at least they're not in pain anymore. And intellectually, we might know those things, but emotionally, we are not in that space. We are in a world of pain because the person we've lost is not here. And we don't think they're in a better place. I think we think they should be here, and we don't want them to be in pain, but we don't want them to be gone either.

So sometimes there's lots of things that are said that are, you know, coming from that intellectual space. And when you're dealing with someone grieving, they are in an emotional space. So their feelings and their thoughts and their behaviour are going to be fluid, erratic. They're going to jump from one thing to another. One day, they might feel quite calm and, you know, together. The next day, they're probably manic, and they could be angry and sad and laughing all at the same time. So, trying to give someone in that space intellectual advice or suggestions is other than strategies for how to manage it because most people will want to know how do I just cope when I go to the shops and I have a panic attack or how do I cope if I've got to go to a social function and I don't feel up to it?

They want strategies for managing those things, but the intellectual stuff around how to deal with the feelings and the thoughts and behaviour they're experiencing, best to just listen to them and let them share that and let them just have that experience and that express them rather than trying to judge them and ask them lots of questions about why they feel that way, to feel emotions, but we are human beings who will...

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (32:33)

And let things not be completely logical. What I'm saying here is it is so countercultural to feel emotions, but we are human beings who will feel something and the whole concept of relating to each other, a relationship is emotional. It is, and it sounds like what you're doing is reconnecting with that part of your humanity because I personally think if we were only thinking and not feeling, that's what robots do.

Jodie Atkinson (33:08)

Correct. I know. And Melanie, I feel like we're in a world right now that is pulling us away from compassionate empathy in such a big way. We are seeing horrific stuff play out in our world. And we're seeing a lot of things that dehumanise and make us sort of point the finger at difference rather than leaning into empathy and compassion for people. And that just makes me more determined to continue this conversation because I think, you know, we have a lot of AI telling us how to do things. We can punch in, you know, a question and get all the information we need. But there are some things that I think we just can't replace humans for.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (34:00)

The thing about being a human is we're messy, and that doesn't have to be a bad thing. It means that we explore new solutions and new paths by making it up as we go along and not going with the predictable answer. And AI only goes by what it has been fed. But we can be so much more original than that, can, there's just something different about being a human being. And it sounds like what you're doing is reconnecting people with that.

Jodie Atkinson

Correct.

Jodie Atkinson (34:40)

I think it is sharing our stories. One of the authors, podcasters that I loved, her books, Nora McInerney, she did a TED talk about moving forward from grief, not moving on. And I really loved her language because it was like, yeah, moving on implies that we just shut the door, forget that it happened and move, get on with life, which is such a typical stoic kind of representation of, you know, pick yourself up and get on with it. Whereas when you're in it, that sounds so much easier than it is. And I think moving forward is a much more palatable thing for me because it's like all our life experiences is accumulation of what shapes the person we are or who we are. And

I didn't forget that I went to school, and I don't forget that I learned to drive a car, and I don't forget that I have two children. Why would I forget that I had the love of my life die? And all of those experiences have shaped who I am, and losing him has shaped the person I continue to become. So moving forward with it, you carry it. And I don't know, I've kind of spent a lot of time trying to outrun my grief and fight against it, push back on it, back in the very early days. I just, you know, I could feel panic attacks coming on, and I would I'd get anxious, and I just got angry with myself, and I get, you know, I just felt like there was this thing, this...

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (36:08)

How?

Were you mad at yourself for feeling something?

Jodie Atkinson (36:25)

I was mad that I couldn't, I just didn't have the capacity to deal with stuff. Like I'm sitting there going, who am I? I'm losing time staring into a cup of coffee. Like an hour passes, and you think I've been sitting here for an hour staring into a cup of coffee. You'd not, I don't even have that awareness. And I could look at people speaking to me and see their mouth move and not hear a word they said, and sorry, can you repeat that? Because you're just completely... Yeah, it's the weirdest scenario.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (36:37)

Yes.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (36:58)

You know, I think part of the problem is that we live in a culture, especially having the nine-to-five culture and the workaholic trends, where we're expected to just get on with things. And I think that manifests in so many ways. Let me know if you've seen this. I think that when I was processing things years ago, there were phrases like the show must go on and just show up.

Jodie Atkinson (37:14)

And I think that meant this in so many ways. Let me know if you've seen this. I think that when I was processing things years ago, there were phrases...

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (37:27)

And now I think that there's something similar now. Well, things just, you just have to get on with your day, but there's no space. People don't want to, I know that right now, it'll be careful about how I word this, but people want to basically just be sometimes bureaucratic about things, or it's like your moral property if you're just, it's like you're more proper if you're just pretending that nothing has happened.

Jodie Atkinson (37:28)

Yes. And now I think that there's something similar now. Well, things just have to get on with their day. But there's no space. don't want to... I know that right now, not all people care about their word this, pretending that nothing's happened.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (37:58)

But what you have needed is the space to just take some time.

Jodie Atkinson (38:06)

Just take some time.

Yeah, the, you know, and I speak to people all the time. Go, I just want to get through this. I just want to be on the other side of it. And I go, I get it. I hear you. But your grief is a beast of its own. It won't be outrun. It won't be told to shut up and be quiet. It won't sit in the back seat and not be a pain in the car. Like, it goes everywhere with you. And I've always, you know, there's a beautiful, I don't know where I could have heard it from, but it stayed with me. And it's like, if you invite someone who's lost someone to your house for Christmas or, you know, a birthday party, set a place for grief because that's coming with them. Because they're not going to suddenly just turn up and go, well, I just left it at home, you know, with the babysitter.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (38:51)

Yes.

Jodie Atkinson (38:58)

for a couple of hours, and I'm, you know, it doesn't work like that. It goes with you everywhere. It's relentless. And I think when I started to actually go, well, okay, this is who I, this is what's happening. This is who I am for the next however long. I'm going to be an emotional, unpredictable, highly, you know, strong kind of individual. And I have no control over it. I will cry at the drop of a hat. And then suddenly it will just stop like a tap turns on and off.

I can't control that. So I'm just going to have to go with it. And if I just be okay with it, everyone else is going to have to be okay with it too. Because, you know.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (39:38)

I am so grateful. Sorry. I'm so grateful that you are being honest about your emotional reactions because I think there is stigma around even having that reaction. And my response to that is we can end up wondering if we're going a little bit crazy when really we're just, you felt that way too?

Jodie Atkinson (39:53)

Bye!

It's absolutely, everybody says like, not everybody, but so many people have said to me, my God, like, that's me. And I said, yeah, well, how do we not know this? It's because we haven't talked about it. And, you know, and we just need to have these conversations to normalise this.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (40:16)

Yes.

Jodie Atkinson (40:22)

Because it is, you do feel like you're losing your mind. I thought I'd lost my husband, I'd lost myself, and now I'm losing my mind? Like seriously, what, who is this mess? I've just, everything just felt like everything was broken. And I thought I was going mad, but it's not, it's actually quite normal to have these feelings and these thoughts and behave that way and to be numb and foggy and forgetful and to be emotional and to be… to be feeling like today I can't get out of bed. And then the next day, no, I feel like I want to go and do that thing today. And then the next day going, I just don't want to talk to people today. I don't want to be around people today. I'm just going to shut up shop and stay in my pyjamas and cuddle my dog on the lounge. And that's what I'm going to do.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (41:12)

Absolutely.

Jodie Atkinson (41:12)

And I think it is about acknowledging that that is what a lot of people may go through, and going back to work is tough if you're in that space. So having a supportive workplace that understands, okay, we don't just treat this person like they've just been on holiday, and we don't just avoid them in the staff room so that we don't remind them of what's happened, because, spoiler alert, you can't remind them. They don't forget. You're not going to remind them. So actually talking to them and saying that, you know, maybe they want to hear their person's name. You know, sometimes that's the thing. When someone dies, everyone avoids talking about them.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (41:53)

It's always.

Jodie Atkinson (42:11)

And all you want to hear is their name. So, you know, sharing a story about a memory you have or something that you remember about that person, or maybe they've told you a story about it. You can say, you know, remember that time you told me that story about that, you know, and it just gives them that feeling that, you know, you actually care and they were here and they did matter.

And that's acknowledged. Yeah.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (42:44)

So talk about it. Jodie, I really, really appreciate the honesty, and I can tell you that so much of what you have described, I've experienced things like that in smaller experiences of grief and also in processing trauma as well. It was very similar things. The, can't I remember these basic things in my day? Why am I staring at a coffee cup? And what you're doing.

Jodie Atkinson (43:07)

Yeah. Yeah.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (43:14)

Seriously, hearing those same things coming from someone else, I think that's going to be really powerful because you can hear all the experts in the world, but when you just hear a lived experience of you're not crazy, you're not broken, you're just reshaping yourself, I think that you're really encouraging people.

Jodie Atkinson (43:35)

It is, you know, it's such a tough space to land in. And no one ever chooses it, right? It's not a thing. Any trauma, any life experience that lands you deep in a hole, dealing with a whole lot of fallout and trying to work out where it all fell apart and trying to, you know, regardless of what that is, Melanie, I think, you know, we don't have a choice about landing here. But we...

At some point, and this is certainly for me, I got to a point where I was like, okay.

I think I have a choice about how I navigate this. And I have a choice about where I'm going to go. And I do have a choice about what my life is going to look like from here. And when you get to that point, I think that is when you start saying, well, what do I want? Who am I? Where am I going? Do I even still like the things that I think I like?

Do I want to do this particular job for the rest of my life? Do I want to live in this house? Do I, you know, what do I want to do with this new existence? And yeah, you do, you do have a choice. And it may not be something that some people are ready to hear because, you know, I know there was a time when I felt like that, but I think, you know, I'm talking to the people who are a few years down the track when the dust has settled and the friendships have either moved away from you or new ones have formed or new relationships have come in and you're in a different space and you're just kind of finding your feet and feeling like, okay, I've got all these opportunities, what am I going to do?

It's quite an empowering place to land when you get to that point because you realise that you do have a blank canvas in front of you and you get to create that thing that you want, that existence, that life.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (45:51)

There's a creativity in your next chapter of shaping, so you're empowered to shape your next chapter.

Jodie Atkinson (46:00)

And it's just a reframe from like, this is where I'm stuck. This happened to me. This is, you know, my life is dot, dot, dot because of this. Or there is this option, an opportunity to go, yes, that happened. And I can't change that that happened. And I've made peace with the fact that that happened. Doesn't mean that I'm forgetting and moving on and saying that, you know, it doesn't matter. It's never okay that someone dies or something terrible happens to us. It's never okay that we go through that stuff, but it's what we do with it.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (46:33)

Absolutely.

Jodie, thank you so much for guiding the next steps. And I'm curious, what are three things I love, picking three things that everybody can do if they know someone who is grieving or processing something? What are the three things they can do to be supportive and help for the next step to evolve?

Jodie Atkinson (47:02)

Yeah. Don't think that giving them space and time is what they need. Don't think that, oh, look, I see you're going through a really tough time. I'll touch base with you in, I don't know, a month or two, see how you're going. Don't do that. Check in. If you have trouble trying to, you don't know what to say, you don't know what to do, it's not actually about you. Okay? No one expects you to have any answers and a diploma in psychology to go and show support. So showing up and saying, 'Hey, let's go for a coffee or let's go for a walk, or shall I come over and just sit with you?' And if they start to talk about what they are going through, that is your cue to stop and listen. Don't ask questions, don't judge them, don't ask them what happened next. Just let them talk and just give them those supportive kind of, yep, I hear you kind of responses. If you also struggle to find something like a gift, something about grief that they might find helpful, a magazine or an article, something off the internet. found like I was trolling through the social media looking for anything.

And then it's how I found Nora's TED Talk, which was incredibly powerful and very, very helpful. She also had a really cool book, a friend of mine bought for me, which was called The Hot Young Widows Club. And it's got a lot of dark humour in it, but it was exactly what I needed. So you could find something that you can gift them that might be helpful as well.

There's so many things that you can do in that regard. And I have written a book that has chapter five is all about the things not to say and not to do, but also the helpful things that you can do when supporting someone. I must admit, if I may, Melanie, like, quite often people will buy my book as a gift to someone grieving because there's a lot of stuff in there that talks about the thoughts, feelings and behaviours we might experience and some of the strategies that I adopted to cope with those things.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (49:18)

Good.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (49:32)

Amazing. So people can buy the book and listen to someone without having all of the solutions.

Jodie Atkinson (49:35)

It's.

There it is in the background. You're on the visuals, it's called Have You Met My Grief? And it's got a couple of blue butterflies on the front.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (49:49)

Awesome. And Jodie, I'm sure I can get some links from you so people can find it very directly. Thanks for writing your book. Thanks for sharing your story.

Jodie Atkinson (49:55)

Thanks for writing your book, thanks for sharing this story. Thank you for having me. It's been a wonderful conversation, and we talked about some stuff that I haven't discussed with other presenters in the past, too.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (50:09)

I appreciate that a lot. Yes, I think I opened up a little bit as well because I love it when we can see ourselves in someone else's story. That's powerful.

Jodie Atkinson (50:20)

Yeah, absolutely. Our stories are incredibly wonderful connectors, and I think not only to each other but connecting to our own stories in a way that's like, my gosh, you know, the gift of words is sometimes one of the best gifts you can receive because you think, I didn't know how to articulate how I felt until I heard or read that. And that's certainly been my experience, you know, learning.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (50:49)

You must hear from so many people about grief and their experiences. I'd love to a while from now hear about the conversations that you have with people. But look, I feel like we could talk for hours, but thank you so much for being on the show.

Jodie Atkinson (51:05)

Thank you for having me. It's been wonderful.

Summary

In this conversation, Celeste Odelle shares her profound journey of overcoming trauma, navigating relationships, and discovering her purpose. From a strict religious upbringing that instilled feelings of unworthiness to experiencing various forms of abuse, Celeste's story is one of resilience and transformation. She discusses her path to healing, the impact of PTSD, and her eventual spiritual awakening that led her to become an intuitive coach and author. Through her experiences, she emphasises the importance of self-discovery, healing, and the belief that change is possible.

Keywords

trauma, healing, spirituality, relationships, abuse, personal growth, resilience, self-discovery, PTSD, intuitive coaching

Takeaways

Celeste's journey began in a strict religious home that shaped her beliefs.

She struggled with feelings of unworthiness and rebellion during her youth.

Validation from boys became a way for her to feel important.

Her early adulthood was marked by chaotic relationships and trauma.

Celeste experienced sexual assault and a tumultuous marriage.

The hostage situation she faced was a pivotal moment in her life.

She was diagnosed with PTSD, which influenced her healing journey.

A life-altering accident forced her to confront her past and emotions.

Celeste's spiritual awakening began after connecting with the widow of a prison guard.

She learned to trust her intuition and recognise spiritual guidance in her life.

Titles

From Trauma to Triumph: Celeste Odelle's Journey

Healing Through Chaos: A Story of Resilience

Sound bites

"I ended up running away at 16."

"I was diagnosed with PTSD."

Chapters

00:00 Introduction and Journey Overview

01:59 Childhood Trauma and Rebellion

05:58 Navigating Relationships and Early Adulthood

08:29 Marriage and Its Challenges

10:18 The Hostage Situation and Its Impact

15:25 Healing and Self-Discovery

21:23 Spiritual Awakening and New Perspectives

24:36 Abusive Relationships and Self-Realisation

34:16 The Turning Point and Finding Hope

Transcript

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (00:01)

Celeste, welcome to the show. It is great to see you. And you gave so much background, but let's start with hello.

Celeste Odelle (00:06)

Thank you.

Hi, thank you. Thank you for having me. I know we're countries apart, but we can meet like this. This is amazing.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (00:21)

We can. I've actually mostly had people from other places, other countries. It's great fun. So, no, it's good to see you from so far away.

Celeste Odelle (00:27)

Yeah.

Yeah, thank you.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (00:34)

So you've had quite a journey. Let's dive right in. And I'm so curious. How would you explain your journey to everybody?

Celeste Odelle (00:44)

Wow. Well, first of all, at this point, I'm an author, an intuitive coach, and I've been through a lot of deep trauma and I've come to on the other side, you know, for healing and finding purpose and joy again. So that's the snippet of it. ⁓ And it comes out in my book, also rerouted, Memory of a Wild Child. It's about transforming pain into purpose and really making sure that the reader knows that they matter and that change is possible and joy is possible. So that's the passion behind why I'm doing this.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (01:30)

Your book really outlines that you overcame. So let's just get to it. I think for those who are thinking about reading your book, what was the trauma? What can you say about what happened? But more importantly, what, how you overcame things, your journey.

Celeste Odelle (01:37)

Thank

Okay.

Okay, yeah. Well, just to kind of backtrack, I was brought up in a very strict religious home. And, you know, there were some good aspects of it in the sense that there was community and, you know, helping each other out in some sense. But the belief system that I took on as a child was that I didn't matter. I was unlovable and all these other things because I could never live up to the religion. I could never live up to the rules. And then I also had, you know, a father that would hit my mom. And so it was very confusing when we were being taught to you know, to be loving. And yet we could hear my sister and I could hear this, you know, after we went to bed at night and stuff. So there was just a lot of confusing, confusing beliefs and thoughts growing up. So that really catapulted me into a rebellious, wild, wild kind of decision-making for years. And then I had situations where I was just drinking and partying and lying and just getting away with what I could because I could never feel like I could live up to it anyway.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (03:42)

Did you give up on all of the standards because it felt so impossible, so you went far in the other direction?

Celeste Odelle (03:46)

Yeah, it felt like it felt like it was unachievable. And it was confusing because a lot of it didn't make sense to me. ⁓ You know, some of the rules were just ⁓ didn't make sense. And when I would question it or ask it, I was kind of told to just, you know, shush,just do it.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (04:12)

What other rules?

Celeste Odelle (04:16)

We weren't allowed to play cards or wear nail polish. ⁓

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (04:19)

Why?

The cards one, I've never heard that before.

Why could you not play cards?

Celeste Odelle (04:29)

I am not completely positive, but there might've been something about the Joker in a set of cards that maybe looked like the devil or was indicated that that might've been part of it. I'm not even.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (04:33)

Okay.

I'm guessing he also, then wouldn't have been reading Harry Potter as well.

Celeste Odelle (04:51)

No, not at all. I'm just going to make sure that my is my volume okay, too.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (04:53)

Goodness.

It's okay. Is my sound okay?

Celeste Odelle (04:59)

Yeah, it's a little bit low, I'm just gonna make sure I've got this. Okay. Yeah, yeah. So anyways, I grew ⁓ and then I started exploring, or I should say exploring, realising that.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (05:08)

I hope this turned up, but I'll use my big voice as well.

Celeste Odelle (05:26)

I wanted validation and love and acceptance so bad that when I started getting it from boys as a young teenager, it was like game on. I found a way to feel important because I just was struggling so much as a child, but I didn't feel that. And so I became, you know, boys were my ticket. And so that led to a lot of chaotic things, you know, as a young teenager. What's that?

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (06:02)

Your ticket.

Your ticket.

Celeste Odelle (06:07)

Yeah, my ticket to feeling validated until, you know, I wasn't. You know, even I talk in my book about losing my virginity quite young, very young, but how confusing it was because my parents never would talk about such a thing with us, right? And then I lived with somebody after... I ended up running away, well, not running away, but I ended up leaving home at 16 and trying to make it on my own. It was just one thing after another. I was sexually assaulted by my boss. My boss.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (06:54)

Your boss, are you comfortable to say, what happened?

Celeste Odelle (06:59)

Well, I mean, I was a server, and he just kept making advances and advances. The more he got comfortable with me and then he would put me on closing shifts. So I was like the last one there. Eventually, he was drinking too much and started making moves on me. And eventually I just walked out the door and quit. But it was it was very uncomfortable for a 16-year-old to be put in that position.

But it kind of was reflective of the kind of situations I was attracting in my life. It wasn't just him. It was like kind of all of these situations were just, it just felt crazy. And then I lived with a fellow after I finally went back to school and got my grade 12, which was good.

And I was living with a guy and my parents, like it was a sin to live together. So ⁓ they were pushing us to get married.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (08:13)

Did you?

Celeste Odelle (08:15)

Yes. Yes, we did.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (08:17)

And you are how old at this point?

Celeste Odelle (08:21)

I was 18.

Yeah, 18, yeah. So it was very much the wrong reason.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (08:27)

18.

Celeste Odelle (08:41)

Sorry, it seems like we're having a bit of a lag here. I'm just trying to see if I have anything else open. So it was very much the wrong reason that we got married.

Prior to that, I had been raped at a party. Just again, the shame and the guilt that was driving my life, made me just go inward and shove it all down, if that makes sense.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (09:20)

It really does. So was that sometime after moving out of home?

Celeste Odelle (09:27)

Yes. Yes. Yeah. And then I, so this, this young man that I married out of, you know, because we were living together, I found out within months of marrying him that he had been charged with rape, you know, a few years prior. And I was like, it really triggered me. It really triggered me. Understandably, I guess. So it kind of made me, you know, again, shut down and just go through the motions of being married. But it didn't last. Mean, if you read the book, it was quite the disastrous ending to the marriage where he was.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (10:21)

How long did it last?

Celeste Odelle (10:24)

Less than two years. And it ended with him threatening me and my family, and that was, I was living in hiding. So it was just, it was crazy. It was craziness. And then, so I finally got over that. And then I had some, you know, just situation after situation where it was just chaos running my life. It was just ridiculous.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (11:00)

What became chaotic?

Celeste Odelle (11:03)

Just the all these situations that I seem to find myself in…

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (11:10)

What? We're curious. The listeners will be wondering.

Celeste Odelle (11:17)

So I got remarried to somebody who felt really safe to me, and I'd already had a daughter at this point. So life should be settling down. And I end up in an attempted hostage situation where this person was looking for hostages, and I was in my...

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (11:35)

With that person with someone else?

Celeste Odelle (11:43)

My place of work. And I...

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (11:48)

Hang on, this person.

Celeste Odelle (11:54)

Sorry, the person attempted to take hostages.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (11:57)

So the person looking for hostages was that the person, the next person you married? Was that someone else?

Celeste Odelle (12:03)

No, no, no, I was already, I was already married and had a daughter. But I was happy.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (12:10)

Right. So you're at work. So what sort of place were you working in?

Celeste Odelle (12:15)

It was just an office and no real street traffic coming in or anything. And we kind of heard this commotion in the hallway, the receptionist and I. And so when we were going to check out what was going on, this person came in from the hallway into our office, and I was just.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (12:23)

Right.

Celeste Odelle (12:46)

My instincts were so strong, like so strong. I grabbed this girl's arm. Like, I didn't know what was going on. I'm like, who is this? Like, is he a client? So I grabbed her arm and I said, 'We need to get out of here.' Like it was so strong, this intuitive hit of just, yeah, like I knew something was up.

Celeste Odelle (13:16)

Yeah, so I go into great detail on that in the book because it's pretty, it was pretty crazy. It all happened very fast. But I knew I had to get out of the building. Everybody else stayed in the building and hid, and I led him out the back. So here's him and I in the back alley, and he's still chasing me.

But it was really an incredibly traumatic scenario. And by that time, I knew, like they had the police and SWAT team and everybody had surrounded the front of the building, but not the back. So it was just him and I. So I knew I had to get, somehow, get the attention of all the officers or somebody from the front.

in order to hopefully defuse this situation. And it was at that point that I realised that he was armed. didn't even know who this guy was or anything. I didn't know anything about what. Yeah, he had a gun and a knife, apparently. I started screaming, and it came around the back and eventually got him. But I...

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (14:27)

Did he have a gun?

Celeste Odelle (14:43)

Because I was so conditioned by this point that I wasn't really, I didn't feel safe to have feelings or deal with anything. I just kind of shoved everything down and I, it was years later that I was diagnosed with PTSD, but I probably already had it, you know, you know, this stage, but.

Everything, I was just so used to shoving everything down that I didn't even allow myself to process it, I guess.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (15:21)

Do you think that you were more absorbed in a crisis moment because in a way you had crisis after crisis in life?

Celeste Odelle (15:33)

Yeah, yeah, exactly. and then when I so being married to this very safe man was so unusual for me because it was just so I was I was bored. I didn't think I deserved him. There was lots of things going on. With that and so I ended up leaving that marriage because I just couldn't, I couldn't deal. So it was shortly after that that I actually started to see a counsellor and get some help because I was just going from one relationship to another, one disaster to another. Circling back to the hostage incident, there were two guards that were supposed to be taking care of this person that escaped from jail. He was in for murder, and they were supposed to be watching out after him on a day pass. And so when this incident happened, the media and everything kind of just blew up, and one of the guards got fired, and the other one was put on probation. So the reason that's relevant is that it happened five years later.

I'm at a different job. I live in a different city. ⁓

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (17:25)

What sort of job, in which city?

Celeste Odelle (17:29)

So I was living in Canada, so I was living close to the coast of Vancouver. So we're talking millions of people in that area, millions. And so five years later, yes, yes, yes. So this job, I'm now a claims manager of an insurance company. So.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (17:44)

Another office job? Sorry to dive in, another office job?

Celeste Odelle (17:55)

A file would come across my desk, I'd look at it and then hand it to the right independent adjuster or staff member or this or that. And then I would do all the analytical stuff. So one day, this file comes across my desk, and for whatever reason, my instincts are kicking in, and I decide I need to do this one myself. And I very seldom handled any of them myself anymore.

But for whatever reason, this one was calling me. So I made contact with this lady, and she had had a burglary in her home. And so I talked to her about the procedure of what was gonna happen, and this and that. Anyway, so she said, you're gonna have to be patient with me. I'm a single mom of three boys, and you know, I don't have a lot of time. And I'm like, okay. Anyway, so we ended up chatting a fair bit, and I was trying to support her in getting what I needed in order to process the claim. Finally, know, it wasn't that we became friends, but we became friendly. And I even met her at a gas station on the side of the highway because I needed her signature on something. And she was just so busy. And she says, I'm… She was a widow, and she was raising these three, homeschooling these three kids.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (19:30)

It's worth acknowledging you are going above and beyond. I'm guessing, I mean, I actually understand that industry. I did, I worked in that sort of space in my very first job, and I just know you wouldn't normally go to the side of the road to get someone to sign something.

Celeste Odelle (19:34)

Yeah.

Yeah, I know. It might all be done electronically now, but back then it wasn't. But yeah, so I was going over the top too. And she was just such a kind person, and I, you know, needed, there was a time limit we had to get things done. Anyway, so then finally I asked her, said, you know, if you don't mind me asking, like you're really so young to be a widow of, you know, with three boys. And then she said, Yeah, my husband committed suicide. He was fired from his job. He was a prison guard for this hostage taking.

Celeste Odelle (20:29)

And I was like...

And I knew my every hair on my body was going, what, and I knew, I knew that she was the wife of the guard that had screwed up and let this inmate out of their sight or whatever. So it was really like, holy crap, my mind was like, why are we being brought together five years later to see the wife?

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (21:06)

Exactly. You find people that are, it can't be a coincidence.

Celeste Odelle (21:12)

Yeah, exactly. That's exactly. So I'm like, and I was I wasn't super spiritual then, but this was kind of like, what is going on? There is something like there. There is no way this is a coincidence. So I asked her, I said. I told her that I was the person involved in that hostage taking, and this is so weird, but.

Do you, is there something you want to know or? And she was like, Yeah, tell me, tell me your side of the story from that day. So I told her everything from my, you know, from my perspective, and I could hear her crying. It was.

I don't know why to this day that we were brought together, but I firmly, absolutely believe that we were meant to have that conversation for whatever reason. Maybe part of her healing, maybe part of mine, I don't know, but ⁓ it was really, really interesting. So that was kind of one of my first really big...

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (22:30)

This is my-

Celeste Odelle (22:38)

Coincidence is that, like this is not, this is not a coincidence. There's reasons why things happen.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (22:49)

Absolutely. That's something people can be aware of. This is something the listeners can bring into their minds as they are considering, maybe this does happen. It's amazing. I feel like it's really aligning that I'm even hearing this story from you, because very occasionally I met people where the timing was so spot on. think how on earth is the timing this good, right?

Celeste Odelle (22:49)

So it.

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And that was one of my first really big wake-up calls, you know, okay, I walked away from the religion, but maybe there still is something spiritually. So that was kind of the beginning of my, hmm my curiosity being awakened again, but in a different way.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (23:50)

So how did you, okay, well, lightening up after that's such an intense experience. I'm wondering how did you explore your spirituality, your understanding of the world after this?

Celeste Odelle (23:57)

I know.

Well, I started, I started looking at or watching some videos and just kind of tuning into different ways of thinking. I mean, if you realise that I was raised in a very strict religious home that wasn't really, it didn't feel heart-based, it felt rule-based. So now I was trying to understand maybe there are other ways of thinking and seeing things and perspectives, and it was right around that time also that I was starting to get to see a counsellor to heal with some of my past and just start to make sense of things.

So, at that point, it was just kind of opening my mind to maybe there is something spiritual out there, and it's not the rule-based system that I was taught. And then I ended up...

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (25:26)

Question.

Celeste Odelle (25:31)

Sorry.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (25:31)

wondering, did you get more of a feeling after all of this, like there's an overall unity in the world and something can align to look after us?

Celeste Odelle (25:49)

Not yet. I think I was at this point, I was still just ⁓ open to the fact that there might be something.

and what it looked like, I wasn't sure. But as years passed, and I'll share another tidbit or a piece of my life that kind of catapulted me in a direction. So I ended up getting involved with an abusive narcissist man. And...

That really shook me. It really, really shook me. ⁓

I had, I guess, this idea of that narcissism was just somebody that was selfish and self-absorbed, but I understood it after I was in the depths of this relationship. I understood more of what narcissism actually is. It's very sad and sick, but it's also...

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (27:07)

What does it look like?

Celeste Odelle (27:13)

In my case, he was winning my trust and my love by love bombing when I realised later that he didn't even know how to love to begin with, but he knew how to say the right words to bring me in. And then the twisting of.

How do I even say this? The twisting of what everything you think you are, they somehow know how to manipulate and twist that. And I'm not saying that I blame everything on him because I now know and feel that.

The only way somebody can play that game with you is if you're a willing participant. And I mean, I can't say I was a willing participant, but it takes two to play the game as far as if I didn't allow it.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (28:15)

Wow.

I see what you're saying

Celeste Odelle (28:30)

But I did end up feeling very confused and messy, excuse me, messy through that relationship, very messy. And didn't even really know who I was. And so I'm continuing to try and get some counselling and wrap my head around some of this confusion and abuse that's going on.

And he actually agreed to go with me one time. so the longs... It was funny, actually, now that I think about it, because he was stringing ideas together to make it look a certain way for the counsellor, that it wasn't even really what was going on. So it was kind of funny. But she suggested we...

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (29:04)

How did that go?

Celeste Odelle (29:30)

We were going away for a weekend, and she gave us some homework to do while we were away. So we go away for a weekend to this beautiful lake.

And we're there maybe, maybe two hours at the most in this new this other city. And we're lying by the beach, and I'm like, Okay, now I can relax. And I get struck down by this branch off this tree that is about 10 inches diameter by maybe 40 inches long and it comes down and just like levels me to the ground.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (30:18)

What happened? It landed on you? What exactly happened there?

Celeste Odelle (30:19)

So here I am.

And I wasn't sure if I was gonna, like, I was kind of in and out of consciousness, and there was this next level of, okay, there's something spiritually going on here because I felt like, I felt like.

I was there and then I wasn't there and then I was there and I wasn't

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (30:46)

So the tree landed on you. Let's walk through that experience of, so did it land on a limb? Let's really paint a picture here of what happened there.

Celeste Odelle (30:50)

Yes.

Okay, so I'm lying under the tree with my partner at the time. And we are just lying on a blanket for shade. And keeping in mind, life had been so chaotic up to this point, also with this person, too. So it kind of kept, yes. Yeah. So I just barely closed my eyes, and I'm like, okay, all right. I'm gonna just let that morning, it was a tough morning with him. I'm gonna just let that wash away and have a good day.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (31:26)

So you're with the narcissist under a tree, basically.

Celeste Odelle (31:49)

And then I hear this crack, and I open my eyes, and this tree or this branch that has so many other branches coming off of it is coming down towards me. it's like there's so many branches. I don't even know where it's going to land and I'm on my laying on my back. So I have to try and get up and somehow figure out where it's going to land and get out of the way because it was coming right for me. And so I was halfway standing up when the tree struck me down into the ground, and the screams and the people around. And it was just as chaotic as it looked. It was chaotic for sure. ⁓

Celeste Odelle (32:46)

I couldn't move. I was obviously in shock, and I was in and out of consciousness, and I finally felt somebody touch my shoulder, and he said, I'm a doctor. I saw the accident from down the beach. I just wanna, like he says, don't move. like.

I don't think I can anyway, buddy. But he says, I'm going to just touch your neck and see if that's broken. ⁓ But the ambulance is on their way. So when I actually got eventually turned over and so on, there were probably 20 firefighters and ambulance people around me, and you know, 50 or 100 looky-loos. But my boyfriend was nowhere to be found. And so the fellow that was helping me or taking care of me.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (33:53)

He left, did he leave you entirely?

Celeste Odelle (34:04)

At that point, I had no idea where he had gone. So one of the ambulance people said, You know, are you here by yourself? I'm like, no, my boyfriend's here. And they're like, where is he? I'm like, and then out of the corner of, I know, and then out of the corner of my eye, I see him way down the beach by himself.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (34:21)

My gosh, he abandoned you!

Celeste Odelle (34:31)

And so I pointed to him. So the ambulance attendant went and talked to him. And I don't know what he said. I have to this day, I have no idea what he said, but they both came back and he's like, oh, babe, know, blah, blah, blah. Well, as soon as they, oh, and they're gonna take me to the hospital, of course. And he's like, No, you got this, you got this. And I'm like, oh yeah, okay, I'm fine.

I wasn't fine at all, but I was in such shock.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (35:05)

He was trying to convince you, hang on, hang on. He was trying to convince you that you were fine when you had been hit by a tree. So that's the sort of thing that a narcissist might do. Basically, convincing you that your reality isn't your reality.

Celeste Odelle (35:13)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, and I was in so much shock that I couldn't even advocate or think for myself, you know what I mean? And so the ambulance guys are looking at my boyfriend, going like, Are you crazy? But anyway, so I did not end up going to the hospital then.

I waited until we were home from our romantic weekend away. But yeah, it was pretty crazy. So as soon as the paramedics left, I asked myself, like, where were you? Like, what? What the heck? And he's like, oh.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (35:56)

WHA-

Men, right?

Celeste Odelle (36:15)

That was just so much to take. I just needed to go be by myself for a minute or something like that. I'm just like, that was...

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (36:24)

My goodness.

The alarming thing is that I've heard lines like that. These things happen, maybe not with a tree, but it happens. Oh, you're in an actual emergency. I need some time.

Celeste Odelle (36:37)

It does. Yeah.

Yeah, yeah. And he made it, you know, about him, which it was really interesting, you know, the whole dynamic of the relationship in a nutshell, that's kind of, you know, it was it was all coming to light. So anyways, it was interesting to me how this accident. So I was bedridden for a few months.

And it stopped me in my tracks. It was like, I was like, go, go, go, chaos, chaos, chaos, go, go, go with my work, my relationships, like, and everything in my life. To have something happen that stopped me in my tracks. I'm bedridden in so much pain, I can hardly stand it, staring at the ceiling, analysing my life.

And that was like, that was the hardest. I call it the dark night of the soul because there were times when I had planned how I was gonna end my life. I was done.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (37:58)

Were you, and this is a big deal, and I think I'll need to really put a disclaimer in the show notes to say, look, we will be talking about these things, and absolutely, I'll kind of add something on, attach it to the beginning, but I'm so curious. So you're in bed for a long time, and I'm wondering what was going through your head. Were you wondering?

Celeste Odelle (38:08)

Yes, yes, thank you. Yeah.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (38:25)

Were you trying to process how all these crises had happened again and again? Were you wondering what's the point of just facing hurdle after hurdle? What was going through your head at this point?

Celeste Odelle (38:38)

Yeah, yeah. I mean, that's exactly what was going through my head is like, what is the point if this is it to life? I'm out. I am out.

I think up until that point, I had managed somehow to just, you know, squeak by mentally and emotionally because, you know, busy with kids and life and work and this and that. I would distractions and I would go to the gym, and I was really fit and active. And that would be my adrenaline rush to kind of cope with nothing, and it really stopped me in my tracks. I mean, the pain, the physical pain itself, was enough to drive me crazy. But I also was knowing that I'm in an abusive relationship that I can't seem to get out of. And all the shame and guilt and know, craziness that had happened to me, you know, leading up to this point. I was just like one big ball of holy crap. And I'll never forget the night that I decided I'm going to make it look like an accident, and I'm going to go.

And the only thing that stopped me at that time was...

I mean, there was probably multiple things, but the main thing that stopped me at that time is that I was in so much pain I couldn't even get out of bed to do it. It was stopped, like I couldn't even physically manage it. I'm like, okay, well, I'll...

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (40:43)

My God. My goodness. You are so you're in that much pain as well. Was anyone around to help you in your at least physical pain and mental journey?

Celeste Odelle (40:53)

Yeah.

No, not really. I and I was, I relied on a couple of friends. I mean, my family wasn't really, and I, you gotta remember that my mindset was that I don't wanna be a burden on anybody either. So I just stopped calling people. I stopped calling friends. I mean, what am gonna say?

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (41:00)

No one was around. So part of this was isolation.

Celeste Odelle (41:27)

that it was the same old broken record in my abusive relationship and in my life. It was the same old broken record. I stopped being open to friends and family just because I was in...

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (41:38)

I'm wondering, did you worry that people were going to think she has yet another crisis? How is she having so many crises? Were you worried that people were going to have that sort of reaction?

Celeste Odelle (42:01)

I think I was in such a self-pity place that I didn't care about that part so much, but I was just so overwhelmed with jealousy of somebody that was having a you know, happy life. It was like, could, it was that, like that, envy was really strong because I couldn't seem to get it. I'm like, why are they?

Are these other people having, you know, success in all areas of their life, and I'm not, like, over and over and over again. It was really a bad cycle of thought patterns that I was having at this point. And I think that's why I got to the point where I was just so low that I couldn't see, I couldn't see any hope.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (42:58)

We need to allow time to explore how did you, how did you free yourself from that belief? And I think that some people need to really learn from that now today. How can we free ourselves from the belief that

Celeste Odelle (43:14)

You can.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (43:20)

We are a magnet for weird rubbish. And how do you, how do you trust your life?

Celeste Odelle (43:20)

Okay. Yeah.

Right. And that was, I'll tell you what happened next, and it'll kind of answer some of those questions. So I was again, still with this person, but just so like, like just hanging on by a thread, and a fight ensued over something.

ridiculous, I'm sure, can't even remember. And there was that instinct thing in me again, going, you need to get out of here. You need to leave, you need to flee. And it was like, it was so strong. And as you have heard, I've had those several times now. So I'm like, okay, I need to listen to this. But I didn't have my vehicle there. So I said to him, I said, I'm going to take your truck. I need to go. And he's like, No, you're not.

And so when he wasn't looking, I took his keys and off I went into this snowstorm that nobody was even on the roads because it was so stormy. But here's me driving away because I felt like instinctually I needed to get out of there. And so I found a safe spot to stay for the night. And of course, there is all these abusive messages and texts from, you by the time I got to my destination. I don't know if I responded or if I just said, I'll return it. I'll have it returned tomorrow or something like that. Anyway, so I go to bed and I have the most peaceful sleep I've had in a long

This is unusual. And when I wake up in the morning and I'm kind of, you're kind of still in that, you know, other world or that fog, and I hear something in my bedroom, the bedroom where I'm sleeping. And it says to me, if you don't get out of this relationship, you're dead.

I'm like, okay. So then my eyes fly open, and I sit up, and I can see a misty kind of figure at the end of my bed. I'm not even sure how to describe it. Not, it wasn't like a person, but it was kind of like an essence, I'm gonna say. At the end of my bed and it said again to me, if you don't get out of this relationship, you're dead.

Mike, wow, if I don't need a hammer on the head to get it, okay, I got it. So that was my, I hung on to that to get out of that situation. And I hung on to that to start waking up when I was hearing nudges or directions or guidance or you know, really tapping into my higher self, I'm going to say, ⁓ to trust myself again. But I mean, it didn't happen overnight, of course, but the healing that happened from that point.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (47:18)

So, to clarify the story for a second, we all need to know that you had the tree accident, you had been in bed in pain for a long time, and you were still in the narcissistic relationship, but it sounds like this person had not been supporting you because you were spiralling that much. You weren't even being supported in the relationship that you were still in.

Celeste Odelle (47:34)

Yes.

Yeah.

No, no, not at all.

Now, they're, and so I felt very alone.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (48:10)

Did you end up finding people who could help you?

Celeste Odelle (48:13)

Yes, yes, I finally, ⁓ I finally found somebody that helped. This is like after I'm already out, after I'm, ⁓ you know, had this incident where it was very clear that I need to get out. And anybody that has been in an abusive relationship, I now understand it that

It's not as easy as just, just leave. It's not always that easy because there's something in me that needed to heal too. Yeah. But after I eventually got out and I started seeking some help and made some changes in my life.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (48:50)

Complicated.

Celeste Odelle (49:08)

And only then, did I start to find some peace and perspective and eventually joy that I'd never ever in a million years thought I could.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (49:28)

That's amazing. You finally found your peace. Did you find your peace in single life?

Did you find your pace within yourself instead of with someone else?

Celeste Odelle (49:43)

Exactly. Yeah, I dug in deep into myself rather than trying to chase it or find validation from other people, places or things. So, to kind of, I don't know if you knew this about me, but when I bought a van, and that's where I wrote my book. It was at the ocean front in a van by myself, and I had amazing support through some different friends and different people, and that's where I wrote ReRouted. And the healing that happened

Even though writing the book has been amazing. Like, I feel like I didn't initially start the book to be a book. I started it to be a journal, to look at my whole life from A to Z and finally bring peace to it. And that definitely has happened.

Peace when I let go.

Yeah, I think so for now. I found peace when I finally learned how to love myself. And let go of the, you know, the shame and guilt that had run my life for so many years. And

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (51:18)

good, good.

Celeste Odelle (51:39)

I mean, it doesn't, like I said, I don't think it happens overnight, but doing the daily practices of a little bit of meditation or breath work or journaling or whatever works for you, there's daily practices that say, hey, I'm important and I'm okay. I mean, that goes a long way to eventually releasing some of this old stuff that might be holding us back.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (52:16)

valuing yourself. So look, I appreciate Celeste. I want to really acknowledge that you have been showing us how we can value ourselves and explore our thoughts, our recovery. Your story, I feel like your story could have been a few hours. So if you want to talk another time when I fix up my internet, but you just have so much to tell everybody.

Celeste Odelle (52:19)

Absolutely.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (52:46)

I'm really grateful that you shared your story. Thank you.

Celeste Odelle (52:51)

Thank you for having me here.

Yeah. If anybody wants to grab my book, I was just going to say it's on Amazon. It's called Rerouted, Memoir of a Wild Child. Or they can go to my website and learn more about it.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (52:55)

Amazing. I hope everybody will get your book. Thank you so much for spreading the word, and we can read more about your story. Thanks.

Celeste Odelle (53:26)

Thank you. Thank you so much, Melanie. Have a great day.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (53:31)

You too.

See more about all episodes of The Motivate Collective Podcast:

https://www.motivatecollective.com

Episode Details: Summary

In this conversation, Karen Iverson shares her transformative journey from New York City to Oklahoma, her experiences with community building, the healing power of music, and her battle with breast cancer. She emphasises the importance of self-advocacy, nutrition, and the therapeutic benefits of journaling. Karen also discusses her journey of writing a book about her experiences, aiming to help others navigate similar challenges. The conversation highlights the significance of connection, support, and personal growth in the face of adversity.

Show Notes

Keywords

Karen Iverson, breast cancer, community, music, nutrition, self-advocacy, healing, writing, mental health, support

Takeaways

Karen moved to Oklahoma with faith and guidance.

Building community takes time and effort.

Music can foster deep connections and joy.

Breast cancer diagnosis led to a journey of self-discovery.

Nutrition plays a crucial role in healing.

Journaling can be a powerful therapeutic tool.

Self-advocacy is essential in healthcare.

It's okay to take time before sharing your story.

Connection with others can alleviate feelings of isolation.

Healing is a journey that involves adaptation and support.

Titles

From NYC to Oklahoma: A Journey of Faith

Building Community in a New Place

Sound bites

"Music speaks to our soul."

"It's okay to talk to yourself."

"We always have a choice."

Chapters

00:00 Karen's Journey from NYC to Oklahoma

04:34 Building Community in a New Place

09:46 The Power of Music and Community

14:41 Facing Breast Cancer: A Personal Story

19:23 Navigating Treatment and Recovery

21:51 Understanding Lymphedema and Recovery

23:21 The Journey to Self-Discovery

25:35 The Power of Journaling

28:43 Nutrition and Healing

35:00 From Journal to Book: The Writing Process

40:41 Navigating the Medical World

44:44 Self-Advocacy in Health

47:32 Staying Connected and Supported

Transcript

Karen E Iverson

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (00:01)

Okay. Karen Iverson, welcome to the podcast. It is a privilege to have you on the show. Hello.

Karen E Iverson (00:11)

Hello, thank you so much for having me. It's an honour to be here.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (00:16)

You have so many stories and so many experiences. We were just talking about how you moved from New York City to Oklahoma. You say, let's start, let's start with that journey for a bit of a background to introduce yourself.

Karen E Iverson (00:26)

Yes, Oklahoma.

Sure. So, I was living in New York City, and then I spent time in New Jersey, and I was looking for a new job, a new career. And I was talking to my mom about it, and she actually went to her neighbour's house. They were in Tennessee, and her neighbour's sister, who was a superintendent.

And at the time, I was thinking of getting back into teaching. I had been a teacher before, but I had stopped teaching. And this superintendent said she would love to become my mentor. And so she spoke to my mom, and my mom was like, 'Well, now, Karen has had some difficult experiences and is not quite certain she does or doesn't want to become a teacher again.' And so she says, 'Well, I would love to mentor her.'

So she becomes a mentor for me, and she almost immediately wants me to move to Oklahoma, which is where she was from. And I was like, well, I don't know anything about Oklahoma other than the musical and the wind goes sweeping down the plane. And so I originally said, 'No, I don't think I'm moving to Oklahoma.' And then as time passed, it eventually just became more present and abundant and knowledgeable to me that I needed to move to Oklahoma. So I followed God and went to Oklahoma.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (02:04)

It sounds like you needed a bit of faith to go to a place that you didn't really know so well.

Karen E Iverson (02:11)

I think you're right. Yeah. It was, I mean, it was like moving to a totally different universe and moving across the country by myself, where I really didn't know anybody. I knew the superintendent from just working with her on the phone a couple of times as a mentor. So, it was really, you know, stepping into a totally unknown world.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (02:36)

Did you? I want to get into the other stories that I've heard about soon, but how did you find community and find your people after moving to a new place? That's an important lesson a lot of people need to figure out at some point in life.

Karen E Iverson (02:52)

Yes, it is. And it can be very scary to move to someplace where you don't know anybody or even where you just know one or two people. I really found that one thing that was initial was that I knew people at my job. So I started to get to know coworkers, and then coworkers introduced me to other people. So, for example, I had been in a band in New Jersey before I moved to Oklahoma.

And one of my coworkers knew somebody who was in a band in Tulsa. And so she set us up so we could get introduced to one another. And he basically swept me under his wing. And basically, he didn't have a place for me in his band, but he tried to hook me up with other bands. And he also brought me to his family's events. So he and his wife and his kids would invite me to their family Thanksgiving meals.

And those types of things. So that was the first thing was, just, you know, allowing, allowing the Lord and allowing, you know, the relationships to develop. And then I also started after that, just finding meetups. So I used that app at one point for meetup and found this group called Bold Betty's. And it was a bunch of women who enjoyed doing adventurous things together.

So we went hiking. Uh-huh. We went hiking, and that was fun. And then I also then developed a relationship with a local church and started meeting people with the church ⁓ and getting plugged in that way, beginning to serve in the church. But it takes time. You know, it's not something that happens overnight. And so you have to be patient and spend some lonely moments, you know, where

Where you're questioning, I make the right choice? Did my move here really be the right thing? Was it really the right thing for me to do or not? And my best friend at the time, he was living in Canada with his wife, and he and I had known each other for a long, long time before he had gotten married. And he said to me one day, " Karen, you've made the biggest mistake of your life. And I was like, 'Wow, yeah, yeah.'

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (05:13)

Well, that's unsupported.

Karen E Iverson (05:17)

And I was like, whoa, you know, and I was like, well, I don't think it's quite that bad, you know. But, you know, now I live here permanently and I've really enjoyed it. I've moved around a little bit, developed relationships at a couple of different churches, but now I'm really settled where I am and in a new career as well from that time. And I really feel at home here and comfortable here.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (05:48)

Pure curiosity, I'm just wondering what types of churches were they?

Karen E Iverson (05:55)

So they were mostly non-denominational churches, but I did end up at a Baptist church for a while. I was not a Baptist, but I ended up going to the Baptist church. The gentleman I was mentioning, who was in the band, started going to a Baptist church with his wife and family. And I ended up going there, and that was a whole other story. He and his wife and I were going to go to a movie night they were having.

And it was out on a lawn. And here I was used to going to lawns in New York City in Central Park, where you go with, you know, a blanket, right? And you sit on the blanket in the middle of the Great Lawn. And that's all I had. I didn't own a lawn chair. Yeah. And so I go to this movie, and right before I get there, the gentleman and his wife call me and tell me they're sick and they're not coming.

And I'm like, what? You're not coming. What am I going to do? I don't know anybody. And here I am going to this movie by myself. And I'm just there. And the Holy Spirit says to me, 'Go'. You're here. You've got to go. You've got to go. So I walked up to this outdoor movie and everybody was sitting there in lawn chairs. And I'm like, I don't have a lawn chair. What do I do? So I almost panicked for a moment. And then I was like, wait a minute. I've got my blanket.

Just put your blanket down in the very front and just sit down and enjoy the movie. So I'm like, okay. So I end up, yeah. So I end up sitting in this blanket or on this blanket at the very front, and this couple befriends me, and she apparently is in the choir at the church. So she hears I'm in a band or was in a band, and she goes, 'You have to join the choir.' So I'm like, okay, well, I've been in choirs before.

So I end up going back to church, and now I start looking for her in the choir, and the music of the choir was just amazing. They had a soloist who literally sounded like she came from Broadway. And so I was like, okay, I'm kind of home. Yeah, because they had a full orchestra and they had the full choir. And so it was kind of like a Broadway show in the respect of the vocalisations and the band.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (08:07)

Nice.

Karen E Iverson (08:20)

So sure enough, one night I say, okay, I'm going to go to the choir rehearsal. And this was in October and I go on a Wednesday night to the choir rehearsal and it was so amazingly beautiful. They had already started rehearsing for Christmas, and the songs were just so powerful. And I was like, 'Wow, I'm going to stay, I'm going to be in the choir.'

And so then I ended up in the choir at the Baptist church.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (08:54)

As you do and music can bring people together. So you do work in counselling as well. And I'm wondering, have you found that doing music without any pressure to be the best or do it professionally or anything like that? Have you found that doing music for the joy of it and with other people and for a sense of community has that really helped your sense of joy and settling into a place?

Karen E Iverson (09:19)

Yes, I would definitely agree. I would definitely say yes, because I feel music can be so powerful, no matter what kind of music you're listening to, know, whether it's hard rock music or whether it's worship music or whether it's classical music, you know, music speaks to our soul. It speaks to our person as an individual. And I think when you go and listen to music on your own, that can be so powerful. And when you go and listen to music in a community, that can be just as powerful, if not more powerful, as well. ⁓ So I do, that's one of the things I do recommend with my counselling is that people find avenues that bring them joy and light, and music is such a template to that.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (10:07)

It really is. So I wanted to really find out more about the rest of your journey because I've heard something about how you had a journey with cancer as well.

Karen E Iverson (10:19)

Mm-hmm. Yes, I struggled from breast cancer.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (10:22)

So, What happened?

Karen E Iverson (10:27)

So in 2012, I had a really great friend who all of a sudden was having heart disease issues, and she had to go into surgery and get a pacemaker. And in my bathroom shower, I had one of those little door sign hanging, you like you find in a hotel room. And I had that hanging on my bathroom shower, and it said on it, 'Do your monthly breast exam.'

But did I do my monthly breast exam? I didn't, I wasn't doing it. And it had little punch-out buttons for each month. You just had to punch them out when you did them. And so Daniela gets heart disease and gets a pacemaker. And I'm like, wait a minute, you know, maybe I really should pay attention to my life and do what they're suggesting you do. And so I started doing that. I started doing a monthly breast exam. I had known how to do it because, you know, doctors and technicians teach you how to do it. And so I almost immediately found a lump, and I was like, am I feeling something? Because you don't know what it feels like, but it was this roundish, hard thing that was in my body, and it didn't feel the same on the other breast. So I'm like, okay, there's something going on here. And so I went at the moment I was actually in school. I was taking classes.

And one of the teachers was an ultrasound technologist. So he did a scan on me, and he couldn't really say anything other than the fact that, Karen, you should get this checked out. So I was like, okay. So I went to my gynaecologist, and I'm in the office with her, and I'm like, I found this lump. I don't know what it is. And she goes, okay, well, let me check and

She pats here and she feels there and she circles here and circles there. And she says to me, she looks at me, and she goes, Karen, she goes, I don't feel anything. And I'm like, what? How can you not feel anything? Because I can feel something clear as day. And she goes to me, I didn't say that to her, I was just thinking that to myself. That she goes, she goes, well, you you're almost 40. And she goes, so I'm gonna send you for a mammogram anyway.

So I was like, okay. So then the story gets longer because then I called up the local place that she suggested going to for the mammogram. And they say to me, It's going to be a month before you can get an appointment. And I'm like, a month? Yeah. And I said to the woman, I'm like, but I might have breast cancer. I have to wait a month. And she goes, 'That's the soonest we have.' So I'm like, okay. So I scheduled the appointment in a month.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (13:03)

Wow.

Karen E Iverson (13:18)

And I just bided my time. Yeah, because I didn't have the knowledge of dealing with things like cancer or disease, because I had been pretty healthy my whole life. And so, you know, I didn't realise I could call other places and see, you know, well, can you get me in sooner, or can you do the same mammogram but not have to wait so long? And so I just waited. And the thing was, I get in there a month later.

And they do the mammogram, and they immediately are like, well, we have to do your sonogram. And they immediately said to me, you need to go see a surgeon immediately. And I was like, okay. Yeah, yeah, it was really scary. ⁓ So then I called up.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (14:08)

So you went to a surgeon immediately. How far along was it? Did they tell you how bad was it at that point?

Karen E Iverson (14:16)

Yup. So it was already a stage two cancer. yup, yup. So yeah, yeah. So they, the, the surgeon, they tested me. They did a biopsy, which was the most painful thing I'd ever been in my life. ⁓ because they literally kept sticking. Well, they keep, they take a needle and they stick it into your body to get to the, whatever it might be, the tumour, the cancer.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (14:35)

What's that like?

Karen E Iverson (14:46)

if it's cancer or if it's benign. And they give you, I don't know what kind of shot, but a numbing shot first. And so they numbed me. But the thing was that it wasn't numbing enough, but they kept saying, 'We're almost done, we're almost done.' So I kept holding and holding, and it was more and more painful and more and more painful. And finally, they took apparently seven samples. And when they finally got done…

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (15:06)

Gosh.

Karen E Iverson (15:16)

You know, I was in so much pain, and I expressed how much pain it was, and they were like, 'Well, why didn't you tell me?' And I'm like, well, you kept saying it was almost done, you know, and I just wanted it to be done. And so they're like, yeah, we would have numbed you more.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (15:33)

Wow. They don't, we go into some things not understanding how it's going to actually feel and be and what all of the options are, because sometimes for the doctors, things are so routine and familiar to them. They don't know what we don't know.

Karen E Iverson (15:34)

Yeah.

Yes, and you have to learn to speak up and advocate for yourself. And that's something that in the first book I wrote, I talk about because it's important. I wrote my first book, Winning the Mental Health Battle. And my second book was a companion journal specifically for the person going through breast cancer, though I was told by other people with other types of cancers that it's applicable to them as well.

But that's one of the things I do. offer questions that you can ask your doctors, know, and resources and ideas on how to get a nutritionist and just ideas to help the person going through their struggle find some way to advocate for themselves.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (16:43)

Did you get a nutritionist to help with your healing?

Karen E Iverson (16:48)

Yes, I did. I found that at the time, I was what was called a pescatarian. I'm not sure if you're familiar with the term pescatarian. Yes.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (16:58)

basically

fished but otherwise vegetarian.

Karen E Iverson (17:01)

Yes, exactly. Exactly. So I didn't eat anything other than fish and vegetables and that type of stuff. did eat, actually, I think at the time I wasn't eating eggs either, even though obviously that wouldn't count as pescatarian. So I don't think I was eating eggs at that time. ⁓ But I wanted to seek out a nutritionist to get ready for everything that was going on and the changes that were going to happen in my body. And I...

This was right after I had been diagnosed. So I ended up going through chemo, but this was way before I did chemo. And I went to the farmer's market in my local town in New Jersey, and I got all these different fruits and vegetables, and I made soups, and I got all prepared for my surgery. And this was when I was having the original mastectomy, and I put them all in my freezer and I put them in my fridge.

And then we had Hurricane Sandy, and everything went bad.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (18:07)

No! I remember hearing about that hurricane, but all your food went bad, and you would have put so much time into preparing everything.

Karen E Iverson (18:08)

Yes.

Yes, yes, yes. And everything just was gone. Everything I had worked for all this, made all this effort. I made cauliflower soup. I was so excited to eat this cauliflower soup. Yes, yes. And then it was gone. And I'm like, my cauliflower soup.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (18:27)

Yum!

What did you do next?

Karen E Iverson (18:39)

So then at that point, I had my mastectomy, and I decided to have a single mastectomy because I felt my other breast was totally fine. There was nothing wrong with it. And I didn't want to do anything to my body that didn't have to be done. So I ended up getting a single mastectomy. Originally, I was told I was going to have a lumpectomy, but they kept telling me test after test after test, a week after.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (19:06)

What's the difference?

Karen E Iverson (19:08)

The difference? Yeah. So, a lumpectomy means they take a lump, basically, out of your breast that captures the tumour. So, they take the tumour and the surrounding area out of your lump or out of your breast. So, they take that lump out. And a mastectomy means they take all of the tissue of your entire breast out. And what normally determines that is how large the tumour is and how spread it is throughout your breast, whether they can just get it and capture it in a lump or if they need to take the whole breast. So what had happened after I was diagnosed, yeah, after I was diagnosed, was every week they would do another test, and every week the story would get bigger and bigger and bigger. And so they ended up telling me I needed a mastectomy. So that's when then I made the decision to just do the single mastectomy. And it was in November of 2012 when I had the mastectomy. And they had told me that it was gonna take about, I think it six weeks to recover because it's such a dramatic change to your body and it affects your movement of your arm. Excuse me.

And when they did my mastectomy, they take lymph nodes out at the same time. The lymph nodes tell the doctor whether the tumour has spread through your body, whether the cancer has spread through your body, not the tumour. ⁓And so if your lymph nodes have no tumour in them, then it means the tumour has not spread throughout your body.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (20:40)

Thanks.

Karen E Iverson (21:00)

The tumour if the lip if the tumour is in your lymph nodes Then it means your lymph which is all over your body has spread through your body So when they went to do my lymph nodes you have one main lymph node called your sentinel lymph node and The sentinel lymph node had tumour in it So what they did was then they took out more lymph nodes to make sure that

It wasn't in all my lymph nodes, and they took out a lot of lymph nodes and a lot. They took out 26 lymph nodes.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (21:37)

So, what are these lymph nodes? What do they look like? Is it a chunk of something? Sorry. I think it's good to translate these medical terms a little bit.

Karen E Iverson (21:55)

Well, they're just they're little pockets of lymph where your lymph is stored and then your lymph goes through your body, and I don't know the exact. I'm not well enough trained on that terminology in medicine to really give you a correct medical diagnosis of it. But what I do understand is that it is. Yes, yes, it's a pocket of lymph, and lymph is that's like

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (22:16)

That's fair, but it's like a pocket of something.

Karen E Iverson (22:23)

When your body has a disease in it and your lymph, my understanding is that it shows and clears the disease out.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (22:36)

Okay, right. Please, out.

Karen E Iverson (22:38)

Yes. So, for example…

Yes, for example, when, because I had so many lymph nodes taken out, I have a little bit, or I had, I don't have it anymore, but I had a little bit of what's called lymphedema, which means edema, meaning swelling. So it means my arm on the side that I had the mastectomy would swell a little bit. And it was mostly in my hand would swell a little bit.

Yeah, and so what was happening is the lymph that was trying to clear out any illness was getting stuck in my hand and my arm and swelling. So normally, the lymph will come up and out of your arm and take whatever toxins are in there up and out. And so the lymph was getting stuck in my hand. And so I was getting lymphedema.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (23:34)

So you knew that you were going to take six weeks to recover. And it sounds like some of the reason was because it made a lot of changes to your body. I know that people can take a similar amount of time to recover from other surgeries as well, like a caesarean section or other things. So, but it would have had specific reasons for what you were going through as well. I'm wondering.

How did you journey physically and emotionally to feel like you're a self again? And did you take a while to get back into the world? What was your journey after all of that?

Karen E Iverson (24:11)

Well, as I had mentioned, I was actually in school taking classes. So I ended up basically just not working and just living off savings and taking the time off in between the classes. I stopped my classes. And one of the things I did was I listened to what my doctor said and did any type of exercise I could do that could help strengthen my body.

And prior, when I had mentioned having the nutritionist, I was also trying to strengthen my body by doing exercise as well, so that my body would be able to recover faster. ⁓ But sometimes it can backfire a little bit. So one of the exercises my doctor had me doing was what's called walking your fingers up the wall. And so the side that had the mastectomy,

I would put my fingers, my hand against the wall and gently walk your fingers and raise your arm as you're walking your fingers and your arm up the wall. And she told me to do it this many times, this many times a day. And so I was like, okay. And so I started doing it, and I was doing it, and I'm feeling okay. I'm feeling like I'm getting better. And I'm like, I'm just going to keep doing it. And so I did it many more times than my doctor had prescribed. And then

All of a sudden, the next day, I was in so much pain because I had done it more than my body was ready to do. So I learned that as well, that sometimes we need to listen to our doctors and not do our own prescriptions.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (25:49)

And also go slowly. Don't do more than what you're ready for. That's kind of a lesson with a lot of exercises in some ways. Don't push yourself. You're not winning in life by pushing yourself to do more than what you can handle.

Karen E Iverson (26:04)

Yes, yes. And I also really relied heavily upon journaling. So that was one of my mental health processes that I did. I've been journaling and writing my whole life. And so I just fell right onto journaling and just journaled everything that I was going through. And it really gave me the sense of like I was being heard and like I could express myself, and I could think through things more thoroughly because instead of just thinking them in my mind, I was thinking them, I was writing them, I was reading them, I was absorbing them. So the journaling really gave me this whole experience to help me process through what I was experiencing. And it wasn't until years later, I was actually writing the journals on paper at that time. And I ended up realising that one day I was in the middle of chemo, and I picked up my journal, and I looked at the journal I had written, and there were lines here and crosses there and circles here and more words added in. And I'm like, wait a minute, why are you editing your journals? And so

Yeah, it's like, it's like this is a journal. Who's reading it? It's a journal for yourself, and you're editing it. And so I just realised that I was writing my first book. So I. Mm Yep. And it just became this journal for my first book. And I just all of a sudden was just awestruck that my first book was going to be about breast cancer.

You know, it wasn't what I had expected.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (27:55)

That's huge. So you had been taking classes, and you'd been a teacher originally, and you didn't dream that one day your first book would be about cancer. And I think that's really significant because it happens to all sorts of people. And I can share with you that my late grandmother, who died in 21, had cancer, and I'm hearing what you're saying. And I think that a lot of people can learn from your experience. So I'm really glad that you're sharing this and sharing about your book, even talking about how you prioritise nutrition. And even though your soups went bad after what happened, I'm guessing you're still prioritising your eating. And honestly, to be real with you, I think that a decade ago, I didn't see people talking about how you can look after yourself if you do get sick, not in that way. It was very popular. It was really focused on that. So I'm so curious. I mean, you know, I want to hear more about your book, but I'm wondering how you look after yourself now? Do you still think a lot about nutrition to stay feeling healed and to try to prevent things in the future as well?

Karen E Iverson (29:12)

Yes, I mean, I think that your body responds to what you put into it. So whether, like you said, whether it's popping a pill or whether it's eating something healthy. I mean, if you eat something that's unhealthy, like maybe French fries, I love every once in a while to have a French fry, know, or French fries. ⁓ But do you notice when you're eating them, if you're… how your body reacts and how your body responds. Are you feeling sluggish afterwards? Are you feeling gross? What are you feeling afterwards? Do you feel energised and alive versus if you eat something healthy, like maybe eating a tomato, how does that fresh tomato make you feel versus eating ketchup? And there's just such a different quality of life in the product.

And how it makes you feel when you eat it. So I do definitely now, you know, pay attention to what I'm eating still. Now, I am not a pescatarian anymore. I do eat all types of foods now. ⁓ But I did decide after I went through chemo that I wanted the extra protein that things like chicken or beef, you know, would provide to me.

And so I did start eating meat again. And what I do, though, is my big key is to eat things in moderation. So when I do go out to eat, it's very rare that I do not take home some take-home product with me. And I know different places in the world do different things with going out to eat, different portion sizes.

I know in the US we often have very large portion sizes.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (31:00)

Yes.

They do. And

That happens in Australia as well. So you're teaching something here. I've heard that it's not always, let me know if this is right. I heard that in America, it's not always accepted or encouraged to take the leftovers home afterwards, or maybe in other countries. I know that over here, occasionally people do that, but they don't do it a lot. But you're saying it's okay to not eat everything on your plate.

Karen E Iverson (31:29)

Yes, it is okay to not eat everything on your plate. And where I've experienced it in the US, it is okay to take food home with you. But that's very contrary to what I grew up with in being instilled in my mind. You have to eat everything on your plate. That's what I was taught. But now as an adult, when I'm full, I'm full.

And I can sense when I'm getting full, and then I know if I eat everything else that's on my plate when I get home, I'm not gonna feel good. And so I will stop eating and say, You know what, I really am enjoying eating this, so I want to be able to eat it again when I get home the next day. So I do enjoy taking home leftovers.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (32:18)

That's such a simple lesson everybody can take and it's such a widely experienced journey, I think, because in a lot of places, I think the boomers and Gen X, it really started, I think, with the generations that wanted to prevent waste, be grateful for what you have, and someone out there doesn't have the food you have. There were all these lines and...

I think that over here we were taught the same as well, to eat everything in front of you. And then it's just a pressure to overeat and to ignore how the body is feeling. So we are getting empowered now to listen to our bodies more.

Karen E Iverson (32:58)

And it's interesting because many, many, many, many, many moons ago, know, the people that were very overweight were considered the wealthy kings and queens. And the people that were very, very thin were thought of as the poppers. And now, you know, there's more of a ideal that you want to be thin. For a while, it was that you want to be very thin, which then I think more recently they realised that that's not healthy either, that you want to be a thin enough weight so that you're healthy at a healthy weight. But I mean, the main idea, I think, is that you're eating healthy food and you're exercising and you're taking care of your mental health.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (33:45)

Yes. And even though you're not a pescatarian now, you're probably still focusing on eating real food. And I'm a vegan, and I know not everybody is a vegan, but the common thread I'm seeing with you and with others I've talked to is that if we're just aiming to eat real, fresh foods instead of the ultra-processed things, it's normally a great step for all of us.

Karen E Iverson (34:08)

Yes, yes. And that is the thing is not to eat the processed food. I know there's a thing in the US about the markets that you go to where they say everything on the outside is the healthy thing. And then the things in the middle of the aisles are the more processed things. So people talk about eating on the outside.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (34:33)

Absolutely start with something that's in its original form in some way for sure. So let's go back to the book because I can sense that you feel so proud about the book, and I want to really give that attention. So you wrote a few books. I'm wondering, the interesting thing about how you wrote is it really did start off as a journal, and some people sit down and say, I'm going to write a book and they might go through

Karen E Iverson (34:40)

Mm-hmm.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (35:03)

Writer's block, or they might think they have that, or they could feel a bit lost, but you're simply writing your reality for therapeutic reasons, basically, and it evolved into a book. Is that something you would recommend? How did you go from a journal during chemo to having a book published?

Karen E Iverson (35:32)

So I do think that journaling is a great way to get your juices rolling, you know. And one of the things to keep in mind is that when you are writing a book, you're always going to go through the editing process. So whether you start it as a journal or you start it just writing the chapters, you know, it's going to get edited. So things that are out of place or need to be added to or subtracted from, you know, can be done in the editing. Now, when I write my books, my books are, some of them are more stream of conscious in the fact that they're right from my heart and right from my soul. And so they really express what I'm feeling and what I'm going through as way to help other people going through the same thing know that they're not alone and know that they can get through it. So, for example, in my first book, Winning the Breast Cancer Battle from Struggling to... I'm sorry, I'm mixing my three books together. Winning the Breast Cancer Battle. Yeah.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (36:44)

It's okay, can flick between them. Tangents can be great. Oh, by the way, there's a delay in the audio by a second or two. I know I keep ending up like this; I can tell you're hearing me a second or two after, but you're coping well. Yeah, so you had the few books.

Karen E Iverson (37:01)

Okay.

Yes. So in my first book, Winning the Breast Cancer Battle, Empowering Warriors and Guiding Loved Ones, that book is very much like the journal writing. So every entry is similar to the exact journal I wrote, obviously, though it was edited. And literally, some of the entries are one page long, one of the entries is a sentence. That's it. And so that's like the whole sub-chapter is just a sentence. And it's, it's really, as I said, it's a way to help somebody really get into my mind and really get into the idea of this is how I am working through this right now. And this is what I'm feeling, and this is what I'm thinking. And you might be thinking and feeling this exact same thing.

So it invites the reader along the journey so that they can take the journey with me, which most books do. It's just a matter of the style and format that I chose to use. And so I did with that first book, I did take those journal entries, and then I ended up finding a company, a school, a publishing school that taught me how to actually take the journal entries and make them into a book so that I could then self-publish it. And so it was years after I actually went through the breast cancer that I ended up having the time and also making the effort to put it together into the actual book that it became. And it was technically published then, after I was involved with that school.

And then the other thing also was that

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (38:58)

So when did that get published? When was that one published?

Karen E Iverson (39:00)

So the first book was published, yep, it was published in 2019.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (39:09)

Okay, that's really significant because for those out there who had an experience, it's okay to then take a while before something is actually published about it. It's okay if it takes time.

Karen E Iverson (39:19)

Yes.

Yes, you have to be ready for it. know, and again, since mine was all about journals, it's about exposing myself as well, you know, and you have to be willing to be able to share yourself and your personal experiences and feelings and know that other people may judge you for it. But, you know, it's more important to get it out there and help, maybe even just one person than to succumb to what one other person might judge you for.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (39:57)

Right. So it's more important to put yourself in the vulnerable situation that could end up helping other people.

Karen E Iverson (40:06)

Yeah, yeah. And I mean, that's, I mean, I feel that's, that's part of my calling in life is to help other people. And so if I can shed light on my life and my experiences, you know, maybe that one other person can learn from it and be helped and have an easier time going through similar things.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (40:28)

Yes, for sure, it's, I think you're doing great work because the lived experience is powerful, and because you do work in counselling, you do have that perspective on how people can emotionally process experiences, but the lived experience. It's crucial, I think, that I wish more people would share things the way you are.

I remember the time when I was having a different surgery, and I think that all I could go by was what the doctor said. And I don't know if that surgeon had actually experienced what I had experienced. So when you told me that you were having something happen and you hadn't really known when to speak up or what to know, I think that the more you can spread the word about what you went through. And as you show people, it's

It's very achievable to create a book or talk in a conversation like this about what it's actually like, because it's so different to, it has to be so different to read a textbook about cancer or anything else and then to actually physically go through that and bounce back from it. It's just, did you find that? Have you actually connected with other people who went through cancer?

Karen E Iverson (41:52)

I have. I've worked with people that have had cancer. I've also shared my books with people that have had cancer. And, you know, the first two books I wrote about breast cancer, I did have people with other types of cancers read them and say how helpful they were for them as well. ⁓ Because when you go through something like cancer, whether it's lung cancer or breast cancer or liver cancer, you are still going through very similar testing and similar experiences. So they found that it was helpful to them.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (42:35)

Definitely. It must be a lot to navigate. Did you find that entering that medical world, suddenly, there's a whole language to learn, and you might be dealing with so many different departments or professionals, or did you find there was a lot to even navigate and learn when all of this happened?

Karen E Iverson (42:55)

Definitely. I mean, there's so much to navigate. I mean, there's the terminology like we were talking about earlier. You know, do we know the terminology? Do we know enough of it, even if we don't understand the medical terminology, but to understand it in the layman's term that we understand it so that we can make sense of it? ⁓ Do we have to interact with the anaesthesiologist as well as the surgeon?

All of these things are involved. Then you have your oncologist dealing with chemo. You have all these different doctors and all these different nurses and tech people you're interacting with. And if we go this way, you're in the room taking your clothing off in front of how many people while they're looking at you and feeling and seeing what's wrong and what's going on.

I went to a primary care doctor's office once, and the primary care doctor had an intern, and they literally asked me, Well, I'm sorry, but can he feel your breast? Because he's never experienced breast cancer before. Can he feel the tumour in your breast? Yeah, mean, it's, but you know, what did I say? I said yes because he's learning and he needs to know what it feels like to, right? So that he can help other people with breast cancer. So, you know, I was like, sure, you know, go ahead, you know, but it's, it's an experience you don't expect to have. And so, you know, that's exactly why I wrote the book, you know, so that people can know ahead of time that this is something that might happen, you know, and this is a doctor you need to interact with. So here are some questions you can ask your doctor, right? I have that, especially in the companion journal. You know, I have all these questions with lines written in so that you have space to write down the answers. And then I have blank space as well. So you can come up with your own questions and I put in their calendars so you could mark in the month and the days and you can use it to keep track of appointments. You know, it's it's it's just a tool to help people so that when they are meeting all these new people and experiencing all these new experiences, you know, it's not as foreign as it was for me.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (45:31)

For sure, it sounds like your books are a buddy for people who are trying to find their way through all of this. And that's really the perspective that when something medical happens, we can end up literally exposed.

Karen E Iverson (45:48)

Yeah, yeah, very literally, figuratively and literally.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (45:55)

Both. So we need to know when do we need to just say yes to something because it's a life or death situation. And when do we have a bit more flexibility to say, look, this doesn't feel quite right for me. That's a lot of decisions, and it's different for everybody. And we're not giving medical advice, but we're exploring, okay, how can everybody ask questions to the right people? That's so crucial.

There are a couple of questions that I'm really keen to ask you. One thing I wanted to ask is about trauma in general, or people going through any sort of big physical change or a medical or health issue, because you are, as we said, you're in, you're a counsellor, and I'm wondering how you guide people through moving to the next chapter when something happens. Let's focus on that one.

Karen E Iverson (46:50)

Mm-hmm. Yeah, a lot of people have trauma from a lot of different avenues. I mean, it can be something that happens to them that's not medical. It can be something that is medical that stimulates the trauma. And a lot of it is, I do recommend going to counselling. I'm a licensed professional counsellor, and there are also social workers. There are psychologists. But when you're going through something like an experience that creates trauma, it's important to do talk through it and do experience through it so that you can get past it and get beyond it. Because if we don't deal with our trauma, then our brains literally create neural pathways that our trauma gets stuck in. Our body holds on to that trauma. so, I mean, there's a great book called Our Body Keeps the Score. And, you know, it's

We don't want to hold on to that trauma our entire life. So you need to process through it. And a great way to help you get through that is to go see a counsellor. And they can help you process and deal with it so that you can best get to a safe place beyond it where you're not stuck in that trauma loop.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (48:14)

So the step one is to talk to someone.

Karen E Iverson (48:17)

Yeah, it really is. And, you know, I am going to mention journaling again because journaling is talking to yourself.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (48:28)

It's okay to talk to yourself.

Karen E Iverson (48:30)

Yeah, it is.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (48:35)

Okay, so get a journal and get some good pens. That's, I feel very inspired by that actually. And the other question you mentioned is speaking up for yourself. I'm wondering if there's an element of self-advocacy as we journey through anything. I know that, I know that I had to navigate and advocate in the school space, so people might have to do it there or as they are having a health issue, and I'm wondering about speaking up for yourself and your needs anywhere. Do you have any words of wisdom for how we can do that in a way that people understand, in a way that we can feel confident and feel heard?

Karen E Iverson (49:23)

I think really just going deep and knowing that this is about yourself and taking care of yourself. And it's important to be able to take care of ourselves. And sometimes the only way we can take care of ourselves is to speak up for ourselves, you know, and know that we're good enough and deserve to be able to speak up for ourselves and be treated fairly.

We shouldn't be treated unfairly. So when we are feeling like we are, it's important to speak up and just find that inner courage and that inner strength in knowing that we deserve better than to be treated unfairly. And that we need to take that opportunity to make a choice because we have always the choice. We always have the choice to do nothing or to do something.

And if we procrastinate, that's a choice to do nothing. Yes, it's a choice. Procrastination is a choice. So it's important to say, you know what, self, what is the result of not making a choice here, and what is the result of making a choice? And then if we are choosing to make a choice, we can always ask for advice from other people and do research.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (50:24)

as always.

Karen E Iverson (50:51)

so that we're making the best educated choice we can make. So making a choice doesn't mean we have to do it on our own. It just means that we're finding the research, finding the answers, and making the best choice for us.

I mean, for yes, we always have a choice. And for example, as I mentioned before, about choosing to do a single mastectomy versus a double mastectomy and a lumpectomy. Well, the lumpectomy was the initial thought, but that choice was made for me because I needed the mastectomy because of the cancer spreading and the size of the tumour. But then the choice to have the double mastectomy or the single

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (51:12)

We always have a choice.

Karen E Iverson (51:40)

Many people choose, for various reasons, to do a double mastectomy, but my choice was not to. And that was based upon what I felt was right for myself and based upon the knowledge that I gained to make that choice.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (51:59)

Right. Do you think that part of it is asking yourself or with other people, what happens if I do this option? What happens if I choose that option? Does that, is that one way to think it out?

Karen E Iverson (52:15)

Yes. I mean, you want to look at the options of the ramifications of your choice. You know, so you do want to look at what happens if I do this. Now, one of the things as a counsellor is we don't want to get caught up in the present or the future and then stuck in anxiety over what's going to happen in the future. But if we can take the present moment and how we're feeling in the present moment. Yeah. And what we're thinking in the present moment, and look at the options that we've come to realise our educated options, and then make the best choice for us based upon what the outcomes could possibly be. Yes.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (52:58)

So that's actually a really significant point, and it's really easy to end up overthinking or obsessing. I can relate to that a lot. Just, Ooh, I wanted to know more. I wanted to get all the details. So you're saying part of this is just, we're never going to have all the information in the entire world. So one thing we need to do is be in the present, do what we can.

Karen E Iverson (53:25)

Yes, definitely. Yes, because if we live in the present, then we can be much happier. And when we live in the future, then we get all anxious and we can get all out of sorts. And when we live in the past, we're living in depression. I mean, sometimes obviously the past can be present. The past can be happy as well. But if we're living in the negative past, then that's how we get depressed. So, yes, if we're making our educated choices and living in this present moment with the fact that we did make this choice, that's where you want to be. Now, there also is the idea that, you know, what if I do make this choice and it's the wrong choice? Well, a lot of times in the future, you can change that choice. You know, a lot of times things are set in stone. So, you know, maybe you choose to do one thing. Maybe we choose to eat fish today, right? And tomorrow we feel sick because we ate the fish. Well, maybe it wasn't, maybe the fish had gone bad before we ate it, right? So then tomorrow we choose to eat a fish that's not gone bad. That's fresh, right? You know, it's a matter of making the educated choices and knowing that with some of them, we can change our minds if we need to.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (54:56)

We can adapt. My plant-based equivalent is I'll have a day of just wanting carbs. I just want carbs all day, and then I realise, I feel a bit odd. I need to get more balanced, go back to the vegetables and then we can adapt, evolve and heal ourselves a day or two after.

Karen E Iverson (55:17)

Exactly, very good. Yes, I like that example.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (55:23)

For sure. I'd love to wind up a bit more with any more recommendations on how people can heal without feeling isolated. So I also know that you do art, and we talked about your music and a sense of community. I know that some people will have in our audience a spiritual practice, beliefs, or none of the above.

But do you have any words of wisdom for how people can stay connected to just feel supported with whatever is happening next?

Karen E Iverson (56:02)

think one of the main things to do is really seek out like-minded people. So seek out people that enjoy things that you enjoy as well. So, like, if you like going to the movies, try to find a group of people that like to go to the movies, you know, and spend time with them. ⁓ You know, if you like to play tennis, go to a local tennis court and see if you can jump in a game with some people or

Now, all the rage is pickleball, you know, so at least it is in the U. S. So, you know, go to a pickleball court and make friends with people that play pickleball by saying, Hey, can I jump in your game? You know, or take a lesson, you know, if, if, you can afford it, then take a lesson and start learning and see if you can make connections that way. ⁓ But I really do encourage people to, you know, search themselves and see what they enjoy and what their passions are and try to do those things so that you can meet people that have similar interests to you.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (57:11)

Sure. Would you like to wind up with three key lessons for everybody, and any way that people can learn from you after this conversation?

Karen E Iverson (57:23)

Sure. I think that one of the things I definitely would recommend always is journaling, as we've talked about it. Journaling can be in so many different forms. You can journal on a piece of paper. You can journal with different coloured gel pens. You could journal by writing artwork, you know, and just allowing yourself to free flow. You know, that can be a form of journaling. You can journal by talking to a friend, where you're verbally journaling what you're going through. I think also that it's important to pursue your hobbies. We really find strength and enjoyment in our life and peace in this world, which is a difficult world. When we find a sense of self through doing what we enjoy doing.

And I also, guess I would just say, you know, to read books and read, read, you know, something that you're passionate about. If it's, if that's like a nonfiction book that might give you motivational information, or if that's a fantasy book, you know, that's fiction, you know, that might give you a way to escape your reality so that you can get some free time to just be somewhere other than in your present moment by experiencing these characters that might be from Mars or wherever they might be from. So look for some fiction in that respect. And my books are all Winning the Breast Cancer Battle. There's an original book as well as the Winning the Breast Cancer Battle companion journal. And then I also have my most recent book, which is Winning the Mental Health Battle from Struggling to Thriving.

Seven Tips to Navigate Anxiety, Depression, and Mania. And that book deals with anxiety, depression, mania, and PTSD. And all of these things can be found on Amazon. You can look them up under Karen Iverson. I'm also held, I'm found, my handle is Karen E. Iverson. So K-A-R-E-N-E-I-V-E-R-S-O-N. And that's where you can find me.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (59:48)

Karen Iverson, thank you so much for helping us to heal. I really appreciate it.

Karen E Iverson (59:55)

Well, thank you so much for having me on. It's been a pleasure talking to you. I hope we can talk again.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (1:00:01)

can anytime have a great rest of your day.

Karen E Iverson (1:00:07)

Yes, you too enjoy the day!

Keywords

parent coaching, youth mentoring, curiosity, authenticity, social media, forgiveness, neurodiversity, personal growth, veganism, community

Summary

In this conversation, Melanie White, a parent coach and youth mentor, shares her journey from a corporate marketing background to supporting parents and teens. She emphasises the importance of curiosity, creativity, and action in personal growth and coaching. The discussion touches on themes of authenticity, the pressures of social media, and the challenges faced by neurodivergent individuals in the workplace. Melanie offers insights on forgiveness, moving forward from mistakes, and the significance of finding one's community. She concludes with three core pillars for personal development: curiosity, creativity, and action.

Takeaways

Melanie White transitioned from marketing to parent coaching.

Curiosity is essential for personal growth and understanding.

Forgiveness is key to moving forward from mistakes.

Authenticity in social media is crucial for mental health.

The pressure of appearance affects both teens and adults.

Neurodiversity should be embraced and understood in workplaces.

Finding your community is important for support and connection.

It's okay to change your mind about your career or life path.

Loneliness is a significant issue in today's society.

Everyone has a purpose, regardless of their personality type.

Titles

Navigating Parenting and Youth Mentoring

The Journey from Marketing to Coaching

Sound bites

"You will find your people."

"Loneliness is a pandemic."

"We all have a purpose."

Chapters

00:00 Introduction and Background

01:09 Transition from Marketing to Parenting Coaching

03:12 Supporting Parents and Teens

05:47 Future-Focused Coaching

07:30 Forgiveness and Moving Forward

09:05 Curiosity as a Tool for Growth

11:13 Authenticity in Social Media

13:32 Overcoming the Fear of Judgment

15:07 Perspective on Appearance and Impact

17:43 Reality vs. Social Media Expectations

18:53 Navigating Social Media Influences

21:36 The Pressure of Perfection

23:09 The Role of Authenticity in Parenting

24:58 The Impact of Consistent Messaging

27:11 Personal Choices and Public Perception

31:01 Navigating Dietary Choices and Social Expectations

33:58 Understanding Justice Sensitivity in Young People

36:18 The Impact of Neurodiversity on Social Interactions

40:18 Finding Your Community and Embracing Differences

51:39 The Importance of Purpose and Embracing Change

Transcripts are automatically generated.

Transcript

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (00:01)

Welcome, Melanie White. How are you doing?

Mel White Parent Coach (00:03)

I love that there's two Melanies.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (00:07)

I know, I've had quite a few Melanies on this show. I know, it's not that common, it?

Mel White Parent Coach (00:11)

Really? ⁓

Hmm, I think not.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (00:16)

I heard that Melanie is French for dark or black, so I like to get really serious.

Mel White Parent Coach (00:21)

Correct, it's Greek for the dark. Yes, I have done the research. Yes, I love it.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (00:24)

⁓ great.

Yeah, we have to research our name.

So speaking of backgrounds of things, would you like to start off with, for those who don't know, what you do and how you ended up doing what you do?

Mel White Parent Coach (00:45)

Yes, great question. So I'm a parent coach and a youth mentor. And I specialise in working with parents with tweens and teens. So kind of from age 10 all the way through to like early 20s. ⁓ And I started off actually in marketing. So my background's in marketing. I've spent the last sort of eight years in like corporate marketing life.

⁓ And then about halfway through that, I decided to shift into youth mentoring. So, working with the teens. And then, kind of after a year of doing that, I thought this is all well and good, but I'm doing all this great work and like loving working with the teens. But then the teens get home, and the parents have no idea what they're on about. So then I was like, okay, there's a gap here, and I need to kind of bridge that gap. So now I work with both.

So ⁓ yeah, that's kind of how I ended up here.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (01:43)

So how did you make that transition? Did you need to upskill in some way? How did you go from marketing to this?

Mel White Parent Coach (01:52)

Yeah, great question. So I've always been a leader with Girl Guides Australia. So I grew up as a Girl Guide, always worked with girls and young women, and I've always volunteered there. So I did that for many, many years and still do that every Monday night, which I love.

⁓ But sort of leaned into my passion and purpose in that way and I actually went on a retreat after being really burnt out from the corporate world I just was like I'm taking myself off to Bali as you do and ⁓ I basically was like doing some meditation with my life coach at the time and I was like this is what I want to do. This is my purpose. This is what I'm meant to be doing; marketing is all well and good. It's a great skill, but it's not my like life goal, purpose, mission.

⁓ But working with young people and helping them have the best possible experience as a teenager is my goal, and that starts with the parents. So, yeah.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (02:50)

Interesting, interesting. How, how do you support parents and what sort of, what sort of challenges have you seen parents facing, and how do you connect? Sorry to bundle a few questions together, but how are you connecting your form of support with other types of support that parents need?

Mel White Parent Coach (03:06)

Yeah.

Great question. Like coming back to, I forgot to answer your question about what I had to do to upskill, right? So that kind of ties into this. So I had I've got certifications in live coaching, I kind of started with that. And I thought that's a good place to start. And then I upskilled into adolescent psychology. And now I'm studying to be a registered counsellor. So in that sense, that's kind of my realm of scope. And so the type of support that I offer is a lot of group support workshops, one-on-one. And my main piece and parcel is being this bridge between the parent and the teen, which is where things seem to get lost or there's this disconnect, right? So for me, my job is, as you know, I've just turned 30, so I'm kind of smack bang in the middle of, I'm still quite like, can remember myself being a teen and reflect on those lived experiences. I'm not a parent.

Yet, and so I'm not quite in that space. So I have that realm of possibility where both parties are open to listening to what I have to say And so it's less about you know Me being the expert and it's more about sharing those lived experiences and everything I do is based around curiosity So if I can get the parents curious about different things and trying new things and if I can get the kids curious about being open to new things and understanding where their parents are coming from, you're just going to have a connection naturally. So that's how I've kind of done it in a sense.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (04:47)

Right, right. So you're basically helping people to explore their own curiosity. And from what I understand about coaching, it's how people are going to find their next step. Whereas therapy can sometimes be trying to fix a problem or delve into someone's past, but what you do, you're, you're focusing on how to make the next step and, and get a bit decisive.

Is that sort of where people aim?

Mel White Parent Coach (05:19)

Yes, so I like to think of myself as future-focused. And yes, it's important to think about what has been done. But I am a strong believer in what's done is done. And we can only control what we do tomorrow or what we do next. Right? So I do a lot of work in like the circle of control and looking at what's in our realm of control, particularly for parents. That's a tough one, as their kids transition to being teenagers from kids, where you do have a lot more control.

You have to learn to let go a little bit, and that's hard. But when we do look at the circle of control, it's like, what is in that, that circle for you as a parent and for you as a team and making sure that, yeah, we're looking forward, not backwards because it's very easy, particularly for teenagers to go, oh, well, mom and dad, they did this and that really upset me and I don't trust them now. And so, and same thing.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (06:15)

focusing on the past.

Mel White Parent Coach (06:16)

That's right. And same for the parents, like, well, my teen betrayed my trust by sneaking out or underage drinking or whatever it is. And my job is to come in and facilitate and be like, okay, things have happened that have gotten us to where we are now, but what are we going to do next? That's going to shift that because we can't dwell on that. Even though it's happened, we have to have forgiveness, and we have to move forward. Otherwise, we have nothing.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (06:45)

think that that theme there, that aim is something that we can all learn from, because a lot of people listening will not be a parent of an adolescent, but we might be perhaps really stuck in the past, and even we might have made mistakes ourselves. I know that I can have moments where I'm thinking about a mistake I made, but then, well, what's going to happen next? So

Mel White Parent Coach (07:10)

Mm-hmm.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (07:14)

In all of your coaching and learning to do counselling and doing that, have you been exploring how can anyone just take action to move forward instead of living in the past?

Mel White Parent Coach (07:30)

you

Yeah, and it's, it is a powerful one that you can apply to any situation. So obviously my niche is parents and teens, but you think about these core principles, and I do have people messaging me a lot, going, I'm not a parent, I'm not a teen, but what you're saying makes sense, and I'm going to try it. So you're very right. The principles at their core are applicable to any situation. And so if we come back to curiosity, if you are again thinking about something that you've done or a mistake that you've made, and I was just thinking about this earlier with someone, it's about how do you make it a learning moment rather than a failure?

And particularly with young people, it's how do you forgive yourself so that you can move forward? Forgive yourself, but then also it needs to come from both sides, just like in any relationship. You have to both forgive and come into this place where you're like, okay, we mess up, we're human, and it's actually okay. And be vulnerable with that because I think sometimes as adults, we are very defensive of our mistakes, and we're very easy to go, well, I'm never gonna do that again and then next week I'm gonna do the same thing. It's like.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (08:45)

Yes, actually, there's a question.

How do we forgive ourselves when I feel like I'm dealing with this right now, and maybe other people are as well? So I hope this will really resonate that sometimes, because we are distracted or just not thinking, we make the same mistake again. How do you go about forgiving yourself in all that?

Mel White Parent Coach (08:56)

Mm.

Yeah.

Ask myself questions, and if or if it's someone that I'm talking to, I ask questions. Now the questions I'm asking are not like interrogating questions, like why did you do that, or it's more about getting curious and going, what got in the way, you know what got in the way of me not doing that thing or doing that thing, achieving that goal. If it's like if we use a really simple example of like okay, I'm

I'm not gonna eat McDonald's for a whole week. People do this all the time, right? I'm not gonna eat McDonald's for a whole week. You make it a whole day. And then the next day, you're like, you buy your McDonald's and you eat it. And then you're on that repeat pattern, right? You do it every week. You start on the Monday, and you go, I'm not gonna have McDonald's. How do you forgive yourself? Well, you ask yourself questions. You reflect in that moment, and you go, 'What has brought me here? And how can I create a stopgap in myself so that I can take a moment and go, okay. Really feel like McDonald's. I know that my intention was to not do that. What could I do instead? And that's what I mean by getting curious and having fun with it. It's not about like being super strict with yourself or again, like punishing yourself. It's about, okay, maybe I'll go for a drive, or maybe I'll go for a walk, or maybe I'll pat my dog to give me that same feeling. What is the feeling or the intention behind that choice?

So with McDonald's, maybe it's like, want dopamine. I want something to give me that quick fix of like, yum, that tastes really good. Is there something else that I can do in my life that's gonna give me a similar feeling? So I just like to ask myself those questions. What is the purpose? What is the intention of whatever it is that I've done? And if it's a mistake, what's the purpose or intention behind what's happened here? And what can I intentionally do differently?

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (11:00)

Right. What can I intentionally do differently? Do you ever find yourself or people you work with needing to make the most of an odd situation? Make the most of it.

Mel White Parent Coach (11:13)

Yes, yes. ⁓ I feel like sometimes when you think about intention and why you're doing something, and let's take the scenario of you have made a mistake, maybe it's you've upset someone. That's a common one in adult life. You know, you maybe say the wrong thing and you consistently say the wrong thing, right? And maybe it rubs people the wrong way.

You have the, your intention is to not hurt that person. Your intention is to get an answer or, you know, share how you're feeling in that moment. So when someone is in that space of consistently feeling like, well, I'm failing, why am I failing? I'm just asking simple questions or yeah, I'm trying to make the most of something. It's just taking that.

I think that stop gap of three seconds to breathe and think before you speak or do or whatever it is, and just giving yourself a bit of grace. ⁓ But also, and this is my famous quote that I love is, it's actually nobody's business. You know, how you feel about yourself and how they feel about you. Right, so if you love yourself, great, nobody needs to know.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (12:26)

good.

Mel White Parent Coach (12:31)

You need to know. And same for if you don't like me, that's not my business. Like, right? So not my problem. That's a you problem. So it's not about being ⁓ not empathetic to other people's feelings, but it's about being authentic.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (12:35)

It's not your problem.

It's about being authentic. And I think what you brought up there about worrying about how other people feel about what you're doing. That's, that's such a thing now, I think, with social media and with personal branding. And I think even I, I personally, became a little bit too absorbed in the politics in the news. And I think it's because I wasn't distracted enough. I think.

And I'm wondering whether whether you have experienced yourself or with other people, just worrying too much about what other people think in general. And I would, by the way, I'd really appreciate some examples, just maybe a story, something you experienced. Surely you must've been worried about what other people think at some point.

Mel White Parent Coach (13:32)

Mm. Yeah, 100%.

Yes. ⁓ I think a good example for this is when I first started. So I've been in marketing for a while, right? But I've always been behind the scenes, you know, doing the backend stuff, creating websites, doing the whatever and doing the data and all of that. And when I started this business three, four years ago now, ⁓ my sales coach at the time said, 'You're going to have to get in front of the camera. And I was like, 'No way.' Right. And I was like, that's a hard no. I was like, I'll do a podcast. Fine. You just hear my voice. It's great. Whatever. Um, but he was like, no, you're going to have to create some reels and you're going to have to do some stuff in the, you know, be the face of your business. And actually, as you said earlier, personal brand, and it took so much, so much effort for me to get over that. Number one, imposter syndrome.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (14:10)

I know the feeling.

Mel White Parent Coach (14:38)

which is the classic example. Like, what am I doing here? Why am I showing up? Nobody cares what I have to say. Like all of this stuff, you know, and then also showing up in a way, like at the very start, you'll see like a lot of my videos, very curated, very like, you know, the hair's done, the makeup's done. And now on the daily, I'm showing up on my reels, like straight out of my pyjamas or straight out of a Pilates class, because I guess the shift there is, yeah, like you said, not really caring what other people think about how I look, because it's more about the message. Right? So I had to think about intention and go, right, what, why do I care? Number one, why do I care? And again, it's that internal rhetoric. Okay. I care because people might say nasty things, you know, you might get horrible comments. Like, people might not want to follow me because I'm too ugly. Like all the things that go through your, goes through your mind. does.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (15:34)

You were thinking,

Can you believe I kind of had that as well? And I had a background talking to community groups, but that's so different because you have that moment in person, and then it's done. No one can relive that unless someone was filming it, but normally they're not. And it's kind of like how you are behind a desk, actually worked in marketing as well. So I get that feeling where you're just, you're behind the scenes, but even

Mel White Parent Coach (16:01)

and bring away.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (16:03)

If you're not creating something that can be relived, then there's a bit of a freedom in that. And so there's that feeling of we are expected to be on video now. So you had that feeling that I had as well. totally relate to that, especially doing the podcast. These are all on video, but hearing those thoughts that you had about yourself, I am stunned because you look amazing. You look so professional, but.

Mel White Parent Coach (16:22)

Mm-hmm.

you

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (16:33)

And my internal dialogue is, God, I never liked my hair on these things or whatever it might be. And so you're saying we need to just free ourselves from all that.

Mel White Parent Coach (16:39)

No, it's always...

Yeah, free yourself from it. like, even though I could be remiss of me to say, ⁓ just let it go and don't think about it because we know that's not reality. And particularly with my background working with teens, I know that that's top of their mind. What people think of them, how they look like their friends, are their everything and their perception and all that stuff. But what I will say is what you're giving is more than what you look like.

and it's that famous like adage you know on your deathbed at your funeral are they gonna say oh she released really beautiful tiktoks no you know what they're gonna say she shared a really wonderful message and helped lots of people that's what they're gonna say they're not gonna say oh her hair looked on point like you know what i mean so it's like perspective yeah

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (17:38)

Yes, what's going to matter at the end of the year or life?

Mel White Parent Coach (17:43)

Mm-hmm, that's right. Yeah, and it's hard because in the moment you go, but people do care in the moment. But then, when you think back, like all the funerals I've gone to over the years, I've never said, 'Wow, they really like, they nailed the hair curlers.' Like, no, you're thinking about the things they did in their life and the memories and the places they went and the people they met and the things that they shared with the world. You're not thinking about, you know, did they look good in that photo? So, but yes, it's very hard and I understand that.

to put that big wide lens on, but I think that's where it comes to like just a bit of perspective sometimes.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (18:21)

Yes. And especially in that social media space, you're dealing with young people who are on social media, and I'm guessing are they sort of connecting with their friends through social media? And have you also found that your friends or people close to your age is sort of connecting with the people they know on social media. And there's a, there's a disconnect between what's online and the rest of reality.

Mel White Parent Coach (18:53)

100%. A good example, and she won't mind me sharing this, one of my best friends, lifelong friend, like known her since pre birth. She knew me while I was in the womb. ⁓ She recently had a baby, and ⁓ she has always been like this just glam, know, glamorous person, always got the makeup, the hair, everything, just like looks like high fashion. And ⁓ when she had a baby, she really had to take a step back and realised number one was important, what was the priority for the day, and that was to just keep the baby alive. ⁓ But also showing up on social media, she said to me, I feel like I can't show up because I haven't done my makeup, I haven't done my hair. And she goes, and all I want is to just post pictures of me in my bath, and you know, doing well and happy. And she's like, I feel like there's this thing, this wall stopping me going, no, but you've got to go and put your face on because that's what she was used to and that's what she's seeing, being served to her in terms of the content that she consumes and all these, you know, the mum talkers and all of that stuff that's out there. Yeah, have you not seen Mum talk? It's crazy. Secret lives of Mormon wives. It's a big thing. It's massive. So they're like, they're all the hair extensions, the plastic surgery that, you know, and they've got like, they've got, they're pregnant and they've got a baby on the boob. And it's like, that's not a...

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (20:00)

Mom took us?

Mom talk.

Okay.

Mel White Parent Coach (20:21)

a reality that the average person is going to be living. These are multimillionaires that have chefs and makeup artists on hand and all of this stuff. And they get ready for the cameras, and they do all of that. And she's seeing that content because she's a new mom, and the algorithm knows, and they're serving it to her, and she's showing me, and she's like, this is what I'm dealing with. How am I supposed to show up online? And then I have to show her the other side.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (20:48)

That's really interesting. I still believe in putting our best foot forward, but if we're thinking about what's the entire reality for the people we look up to, I don't, I wonder how many people wake up completely done up and made up.

Mel White Parent Coach (21:10)

⁓ zero.

There's no way, you know, it's that, have you ever seen Mad Men? Yeah, great, great show. If no one's watched it, go and watch it. It's that classic 1950s housewife where they wake up in the morning and they get out of bed quickly and they put their face on and they lay back in bed so that their husbands only see them with their full face on. And it's, it is, it's the patriarchy.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (21:16)

Yes.

Interesting. I, that's so fascinating because I seriously haven't put makeup on in a few years. And I, I think that that really stemmed because I was in Queensland for a while, where the weather was so sweaty that the makeup would just kind of drip so quickly. It wasn't worth it. But so I understand that for some women, want to acknowledge for some women, okay.

Mel White Parent Coach (21:57)

Mm-hmm.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (22:03)

It feels right. makes them feel good. And even if someone is into a surgery, whatever you're into, you do you right. But it's the pressure that we're all meant to look a particular way. And I think that that kind of standardisation is going on in all sorts of spaces because you came from corporate, I came from spaces where if you're a speaker, you're meant to all be in the same suit, but then that's not what it's like in a TED talk. It's not what it's like in communities.

Mel White Parent Coach (22:09)

Yeah, but I've heard you've got it.

Mm-hmm.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (22:33)

So part of this is just having the freedom to be ourselves.

Mel White Parent Coach (22:39)

Yeah. Yeah. And that's what we want. That's what I want to share with the next generation coming through is that even though they are bombarded with all of this and also parents, like even my parents, ⁓ my mom in particular, you know, they are influenced, they were influenced by the Hello Magazine and you know, Women's Weekly and that kind of thing, right, which was the social media of their time. And I don't actually think there's that big of a difference between

Mel White Parent Coach (23:09)

that are now about volume.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (23:11)

Well, previously, it was, of course, a mass message to anyone who saw a cover of a magazine in a shopping centre. And now we're seeing whatever comes into our social media feeds, but it's, it's very similar because you're a bit younger than me, just a little bit, but I like to feel young at heart. But I grew up in the days when Britney Spears was starting off and wearing a crop top, and that was amazing. I'm so glad she was having fun in that moment in time, but I knew that I wasn't going to look like that. And now we have a different version of social media. There was a phase when everybody wanted to look like the Kardashians, and we keep having something else that women still look like.

Mel White Parent Coach (23:42)

Thank you.

Yes.

Yes,

Yes, that's exactly right. And, and I think it is this, you know, perception versus reality, of course, but also what's really hard is when the lines get blurred, because as I said, before, when you see something consistently, it's like that, ⁓ the example would be okay, a cult, social media is a cult, right? Because you are essentially being served a message, consistently, if someone tells you that the sky is green for long enough, you're going to start to believe it. Yeah. Yeah. And with teens, they're just these giant sponges of trying to create their own values, neural pathways and decisions and choices in life. And all of these messages, some are going to stick, some are going to flow through, and that's so fine.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (24:36)

Can you believe it? It's the consistency over time. ⁓

Mel White Parent Coach (24:58)

But some are gonna stick, and it's the ones that stick that worry me. ⁓ But there's good out there too, and I think that's where it's like, know, there is really good stuff and like the stuff that you you share or that I share or anyone else that's in like a community of people that have a good message to share. It's like we want to over overlord the negativity, but it is hard.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (25:23)

It is hard. And I wanted to really acknowledge that it's okay to want to look glamorous. It's okay to do all those things. But if I think what we're dealing with here is when we end up expecting that everyday reality to look like the filtered version and look the version of it that I have been contributing, just because I have no choice, is that people will see what I put on social media, and it's not all airbrushed. Sure. We also select what goes online and people see. This looks great. This looks like it's doing well, but they really don't see the other things that are going on behind the scenes. And I don't know if you had that experience where people are saying, ⁓ you're doing great things online. Your life is amazing. And people decide your life is going great.

Mel White Parent Coach (26:18)

Yeah.

And or the other side, where, you know, I might show up and I'm literally in gym gear and I look a bit dishevelled and I'll get people going, you look a bit tired, babe. So you're okay. You know, or like, you know, are you doing okay? Like, you look like you're working, don't work too hard. So it can go both ways. It's like you show up authentically as probably how you look on a normal day, and people get worried about you. And it's like, well, actually, I'd love to show up more in that way. So people realise that's my normal face. ⁓

And number two, it's like, why do we feel entitled to comment about other people's appearances and those kinds of things? Just be like, ⁓ love what you shared today in that message or don't say anything at all. That's okay too. But yeah, I do think that we are in a society where we feel very entitled to share our thoughts and opinions on other people.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (27:11)

That's so interesting. And I love how this chat more than some others, it has just gone anywhere. And I love that the whole look, the online opinions thing, I can say even I had some phases of getting so anxious about even who is seeing what I'm putting online, and I have to step back and decide. So what, but the opinions, it sounds like you have had some people getting a bit extra concerned.

Mel White Parent Coach (27:18)

Yeah.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (27:42)

But even, even I think that people have an opinion about whether you support something or not. I don't think I've copped that so much since in the pandemic, everybody had a view and opinion. You know, there was just a day, there was a time in the pandemic when either you were getting absorbed in the us and them of it, or

Mel White Parent Coach (27:53)

Mmm.

Mm-hmm.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (28:09)

You were either supporting everything or you are asking questions. And we're so lucky here in Australia, because I know that in other countries at the moment, people are trying to even decide are they going to just get divided or are they going to have open conversations about things. So I think that we have been really lucky in Australia that I think that people have been a bit chilled out to some extent.

Mel White Parent Coach (28:27)

Yeah.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (28:38)

about getting too opinionated. And I'm wondering, I'm wondering whether with the young people that you're seeing, is there a sense of unity to some extent that there would be, there would be a lot of, there would be, what is it, diversity? That's the word, sorry. I mean, some of them are neurodivergent. Some of them might be, look, I'm a vegan. Some people you're working with might be, oh, you're a vegan. Okay.

Mel White Parent Coach (28:55)

Hmm. Yeah.

Yep.

Hey!

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (29:07)

Okay, that's a whole thing in itself. Okay, have you had people reacting to that over the years? When did you turn vegan?

Mel White Parent Coach (29:09)

I know.

Yeah, 10 years ago. Yes, very much so. I started off, if we want to go down that rabbit hole, but I did start off like sharing a lot about that life journey. And honestly, now I don't really tell anyone unless they ask me explicitly, you know, like it's just, it's my own thing. And the only people that really know about it is if I go to a restaurant and I say, I can't have dairy, can't have meat, can't have eggs. And then they kind of figure it out.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (29:21)

Yeah, sure.

Why?

Mel White Parent Coach (29:43)

You start listing all the things you can't eat. But ⁓ honestly, that's where I kind of, particularly with young people, you know, people like they will say to me, you know, about they'll start talking about animal rights, or they'll start talking about being vegetarian or vegan or something. And I'll share like some anecdotes or my experience and they'll, and then it gets them interested, and then they share their opinions on it. And I try very, it's funny you say this, because I try very carefully to not push agendas on people about veganism because for me, for me, it is an ethical thing, but I never want to be that person that's like, well, you eat meat, you're a bad person. But that's like a choice I made. So yeah, it's an interesting one for sure. Cause I do think I'm a little bit like passive in that way. I'm like, I've chosen this life. I don't expect anybody else to choose it. I recommend it, but you know, I'm never going to like publicly be like, be a vegan.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (30:14)

Yes.

Yeah.

Yeah.

That's so interesting because I think now I'm realising that Aussies do have some things that can be divisive, but in a really subtle way, because with the vegan thing, you and I probably had a similar angle there, where for a while, when I started, it was all vegan, everything used the word a lot. I was putting my food on social media to be fair. It was.

Mel White Parent Coach (30:50)

Mm-hmm.

Yes.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (31:06)

Just before the pandemic and during it, there's not much else to do but share the latest bunch of beans. Sure. Yes. Well, we eat more than salad, but whatever it might be, pasta sauce or whatever, it was just all food. But it was so interesting. I didn't want it to be boxed in by it. And it's so funny now that people aren't that

Mel White Parent Coach (31:12)

Mm-hmm.

Salads.

Yeah.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (31:34)

Generally, I'll meet up with some people and they don't know, and then I'll just say, so I'll sit down and ask, okay, what on the menu is vegan? ⁓ You're vegan. They don't make a big deal about it, but I totally agree with you. If we were, and this is the thing that I wish everybody in the world would learn. We could have been holding a sign saying everybody needs to be vegan, and that would be nice. Look, personally, if everybody wanted to not eat meat, I wouldn't complain.

But do I expect them to? No, because that's not what people are going to do. But I think that same thing could be applied right now. People are having opinions about every aspect of life; we can't. People do what they're going to do. Do you agree?

Mel White Parent Coach (32:06)

Yeah.

you

Yeah, it's not, it's not in our circle of control, right? So it did take me a while because at the start, like my husband, he's a meat-eater. And so I still cook meat every day. ⁓ but it took me a while to get like kind of off my high horse a little bit and also look at my circle of control and go, I can control my impact on the planet, my impact on animals, my what I eat, what I choose to consume. I can't control what the person next door does, what even my husband does. ⁓ but yes, it's

It's about what you can do and what's in your control, essentially. And I do share that a lot with young people because they do get caught up in the justice sensitivity complex.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (33:03)

What's that about?

Mel White Parent Coach (33:04)

So that's a big thing in the neurodivergent world. So I myself have ADHD, and it's a massive thing with ADHD is that we get kind of hyper fixated on this concept of justice in the world, in life and particularly young people with the planet, which is one of their biggest causes of stress.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (33:27)

Okay, now we're talking.

Mel White Parent Coach (33:28)

Yeah, now we're talking. That was voted the number one cause of stress in young people, and anxiety is the planet and the way the planet is going. And so they're in this like realm of at the moment when I have conversations with young people, they're very much like, it's not fair. All the old people voting for this and voting for that. And they're just going to kill our planet, and they're going to die next week. And so, you know, it's, mean, when you think about it from their perspective, it's a fair enough feeling, but ⁓

Mel White Parent Coach (33:58)

holding on to that kind of justice sensitivity is not good for you, number one. It's stressful, and it's outside of your control. Yeah.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (34:03)

I love that so much. hadn't heard that label for it, but you're reminding me that it's interesting because I'm actually going to be supporting an educational event with an environmental group tomorrow. So your timing is amazing and. ⁓ come along. I'll send you stuff later. I am a little bit further up north than you, but you're not that far away, but anyhow, we do all deep down actually have these concerns. It's so interesting because.

Mel White Parent Coach (34:22)

Use that. Yeah, cool.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (34:35)

Let's just say it. think that I did watch a particular monologue that's overseas. did see that this week, but we have our own stuff over here, where, I mean, let me know if you agree. I felt like it was just a few more floods than normal last winter, whatever was going on. You know, and I don't really care which scientist is right. The bottom line was that roads were closed, and I felt nervous to go outside. I don't really care what needs to be proven. But what I care about is, okay, how am I going to get through that day? And it's great that we're past that. But how many times have the Aussies been feeling really nervous about whether there will be fires again in the summer? I think that there is an anxiety around those things. And then being neurodivergent, I think we're living in a great era for things like that, because

I don't know if you saw a lot of inclusion around that or a lot of acceptance. think that when I first discovered those labels and I didn't hear the phrase or the word neurodivergent early on, but other labels, I think that there was, there was a serious stigma, and I think it was actually, there was outright bullying around those sorts of things. So I think that stuff has evolved, but we are still feeling sensitive about, okay,

Mel White Parent Coach (35:34)

Hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (35:58)

Can we be honest about what we eat? Will people care, or can we be open about being on a spectrum, and how can we share our anxiety about the environment around us without getting too wrapped up in the anxiety? Have you seen that just with people around you?

Mel White Parent Coach (36:07)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, a lot. As I said, particularly with young people, but also in the corporate world. You know, if we go back to that, one of the biggest examples I can share is, you know, finally get into a point where I felt confident enough to share with my workplace about having ADHD and the support needs that I may require, and basically getting bullied out of the company. ⁓ Because

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (36:44)

Do you mind if I ask what happened there?

Mel White Parent Coach (36:46)

Yeah, so essentially they just didn't understand it. There was a cultural barrier. ⁓ And it was essentially thought of as something that was more of a problem for me to fix, rather than to be accepted or, you know, in that sense or to feel included. Yeah, and it was like, you know, it was just a lot of misunderstanding, me feeling misunderstood.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (37:06)

Just.

Mel White Parent Coach (37:15)

them not understanding where I'm coming from, or the things I'm saying, or how I might be feeling, and then putting that blame back on me, being like, that's a you problem, need to sort that out. So yeah, it was a really interesting time. But now, because of that experience, and this is what I mean with the things that you do in your past that shape your future experiences, and same with parenting, is that now I don't disclose that unless absolutely necessary, you know, or I feel that's why I'm my own business, right? Because I don't have to deal with that anymore. But after I left that workplace, there was like a few other workplaces that I went to, and I purposefully chose not to share that.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (38:00)

Not to mention it. Yeah. That's, I talked with someone who who said, check the psychological safety of a space. And it was actually another Melanie, Melanie Smith. So the Melanies are just coming up with all the nuggets right now. Yes. So I think that you really experienced, it's just.

Mel White Parent Coach (38:18)

Mmm.

They're just coming out.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (38:29)

It sounds like that must have been relatively recent, though that that happened.

Mel White Parent Coach (38:32)

Yeah, yeah it was. It wasn't too long ago, probably just over a year ago, I say.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (38:38)

That concerns me so much because that sort of thing, I saw that going on very early in my working life. I think it was about, oh wait, oh nine, 2009. Mean, it's just so long ago, and people will tell me, this is actually interesting. People will tell me that things have evolved. People are more understanding. And I think that there's so much online, and there's so much in

Mel White Parent Coach (39:02)

Hmm

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (39:08)

The media about being inclusive. And we're sort of led to believe that the world is inclusive now. But then things like that will happen. And so you can't always assume that people are as understanding as you expect them to be.

Mel White Parent Coach (39:25)

Yeah, and coming full circle to that is this particular company prided themselves on diversity and inclusion. And you know, that company culture was everything and all this stuff, but again, it was how they wanted to be perceived online versus what was the reality behind closed doors.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (39:48)

My goodness. love when that metaphorical mic jobs and what's moving forward. think the empowering thing now, I think we need to look at the upside and all this because I just, I think that stuff is happening left, right. And centre and open intended. And at least you have created your own brand, your own business and pivoting from young people for a second. If you.

Mel White Parent Coach (39:52)

Mm-hmm.

Yes.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (40:18)

If you can guide people close to our age, who or anyone who has come out of a situation like that, like that where they may be realised they can't share their truth. I know some parents are told, 'Don't mention your family life because that's private and it has nothing to do with this, even though it affects what time you can show up in a day and all sorts of things.' So that all happens. think the question I have to you is when people realise in the space they are in, they can't share their reality, and they're ready to create their own space. Then what advice do you have to encourage that?

Mel White Parent Coach (41:03)

Yeah.

I think I'm going to come back to that original thing, which is again, it's a big learning and it takes time, and I don't expect people to just like get there overnight. But what other people think of you is none of your business. And that has taken me a long time. In fact, I'm not going to even say that I'm 100 % there. I'm about 80 % of the way. ⁓ It's a lifelong thing, I feel. But if you can just remember in those moments when someone is making you question your authenticity or whether you should share something about yourself, and you

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (41:23)

It's a journey.

Mel White Parent Coach (41:34)

⁓

feeling that sense of wanting to stop before you say, when moments you want to share, then just remember being who you are is your truth. And this is really funny, but I had like a very well known speaker in the motivational speaking world say to me in front of a crowd of like hundreds of people only last week that I was an acquired taste.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (42:06)

Ooh, I always called myself one of those. Okay. Scratching my face.

Mel White Parent Coach (42:08)

Yes, so he said, you're, yeah,

he was like, you're an acquired taste. And I just stood there and I said, thank you. I was like, thank you.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (42:20)

I'll tell you the really naughty line that I like to say for

that. I'm an acquired taste and I choose to believe that I'm yummy. You can't always say that. It's not too explicit, but I like using it occasionally.

Mel White Parent Coach (42:31)

I love that.

I love that. Well, I just said to him, thank you. I'm not here to please everybody. I have a purpose and a mission and you don't have to like me. That's fine. We don't have to be friends.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (42:46)

Guessing that you don't feel like it's the right time to say who it was.

Mel White Parent Coach (42:51)

⁓

Let's just say like he's around. He's very big. You would know him. ⁓ But yes, very well known motivational speaker. ⁓ But yes, he just said it and I just said, okay, thank you. And then I had a few people come up to me afterwards and say, that was a bit harsh. And I said, is it or is it just the truth? Yeah, is it just the truth? Like I don't expect everybody to like me. And if I did,

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (42:56)

Okay. Or a compliment.

Mel White Parent Coach (43:20)

That wouldn't be... I would be quite boring, I feel like.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (43:25)

Yeah. But with your honesty, I feel like you've been able to find your people because I just felt so reassured or at home when you said that you're a vegan as well. being open to say, you know, I don't even, honestly, I don't talk about the spectrum or neurodivergent things publicly much at all, because I just don't want to chime in to that conversation and I don't want to attract opinions.

So don't even go there. And I think it's amazing that you're honest about that. And we could bond over the vegan thing. And I think that you just find your people when you share the part of yourself that you can share.

Mel White Parent Coach (44:08)

Yes, 100%. And doesn't matter what age you are, you know, could be one, you could be a hundred. And if you do what you like and find your passion, purpose, even just a hobby, whatever it is, you lean in to that, you will find your people. Like that's science. There's no arguing with that. ⁓

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (44:22)

anything.

Okay.

Even find the chatty ones being on podcasts. We're all chatty enough to be doing this.

Mel White Parent Coach (44:37)

That's right. That's right. Find, you know, for or if you're a bookworm, go to a library. You know, you're going to you're going to find people in the crime fiction section that are also looking for a similar book. And then you'll get chatting about it. You know, there's just there's things as things for everyone. I think that's the message that I want to like share here is that loneliness is a pandemic as we know and there's things for everyone there's people for everyone and yeah sure you might be in a quiet taste I say that in meta commas you might be in a quiet taste but guess what I'm okay with that because I like myself and I'm my biggest fan first and I think that's important

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (45:07)

Really is. The loneliness is an epidemic or a pandemic or whatever it might be. Loneliness is a thing that we need to deal with. And it sounds like the self-care message, because I really like bringing this show back to the self-care goals. And I think that one thing you've really brought us to is to, to gather with people and be real enough when you're connecting with, you don't have to be a photoshopped version of yourself.

Mel White Parent Coach (45:52)

No, just be you. And also it's okay. And this is one thing I will say, particularly the neurodivergent community, because a lot of my community is, is that it's actually okay to find people that you can sit with and say nothing.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (46:04)

Okay, tell me more.

Mel White Parent Coach (46:05)

Good example, me and my husband, we're both very different ends of the spectrum. In terms of neurodiversity, I'm very like outgoing and like love to chat. He loves to be in silence. And so, you know, we will sit there, I'll have my headphones on, I'll listen to a podcast, he'll do his thing. And we're together in the space. And we're not lonely because we have company, but we're doing our own thing. And we feel comfortable enough with each other. And we know each other well enough to actually say nothing but be in the same space.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (46:37)

Know, I experienced that recently. I found that being I guess, so I don't identify as ADHD, but I have this sort of mind that's just going and going and going and going and going right. And I think that I experienced what you have seen, where when someone is the opposite, but in a happy, just content sort of way, then it can be sort of a relief.

Mel White Parent Coach (46:49)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (47:04)

I mean, I don't want it sound dependent, and I could ask you about this. It almost feels dependent, and you can correct this ⁓ quite helpfully. It feels dependent to realise that some calm people are a relief from our own minds. Does that make sense?

Mel White Parent Coach (47:09)

Hmm.

It's the yin and the yang complex. Yeah, 100%. Imagine if two yins got together, like that's just, it's nuts and it's not sustainable. And so you do need to have a balance of energies. And that's why, like my husband and I have been together for 14 years, not married for 14 years, but we've been together for 14 years. And

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (47:26)

and that's okay.

it's nuts.

Mel White Parent Coach (47:46)

It's one of those things where it's like it works because we don't match energies, we meet energies. ⁓ So yeah, I think that's important when you are finding your community or your people is it's all well and good to go out and party with a bunch of extroverts, but can you do that every single day? Probably not.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (48:06)

⁓ it's

full on, whether it's the partying. I've been in dynamics where someone is ultra chatty, and I find myself on the phone for a seriously not kidding five hours in a day. And you just, I think that you are really onto something. So maybe the chatty people need to find their mellow, contrasting person out there. I'm learning from you so much.

Mel White Parent Coach (48:17)

Whoa.

And

they appreciate, like when we're in a social setting, he hates talking to people, hates it. And he loves that I can just hold the conversation, and then he'll jump in with his quick little wits whenever he wants to. And that's, he is satisfied socially. You know, so it's like you find your people and you share that, the dynamic works because, and it's saying with friendship groups, doesn't matter how old you are, but.

In your friendship groups, you'll know there's the quiet one, there's the chatty one, there's the organized one, there's the OCD one. In a group of friends, it's dynamic. If you were all the same, I don't think it'd be a very good friendship group. It'd be quite like either really intense or really boring.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (49:15)

Yes, that's actually a great lesson for young people who are finding their friends and for people close to our age as well. I'm in a small little community group at the moment where there's one person who doesn't feel so chatty, but will quietly just bring people in one by one. And then I'm happy to just talk and talk. And I think that what you're saying is

Mel White Parent Coach (49:24)

Hmm.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (49:42)

We can all be the different arms and legs and ears and whatnot of the space we are in. And we're all serving a different purpose.

Mel White Parent Coach (49:53)

Yes, 100%. And that's the other thing. We're all serving different purpose, but we all have a purpose. And I think sometimes people feel like that when they are in a space, maybe there's a lot of dominating personalities or whatever. And maybe they are the quieter one. This happens a lot with young people is they feel like, oh, well, I'm not important, or I'm I don't have a purpose here, because I don't have a loud enough voice, or I'm not the one who's chosen when I put my hand up or

whatever that looks like happens in corporate too, right? And I think it's like, actually, do you have a purpose? Because maybe you're the listener, you're the innovator, you're actually taking in everything that's happening and absorbing it. And then a couple of days later, you might come up with something absolutely genius. Everybody has a purpose.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (50:40)

Everybody does have a purpose that that is so important for everybody to know. And actually, again, I'm not a therapist, but I think that if anyone is really struggling with their place in the world, just reminding ourselves that we do have a purpose in being different. think this can be really reassuring because we've both gone through experiences of wondering where we fit and realising we fit some spaces more than others. So that's actually reassuring whether someone is very young and is just in the bubble of school or whether someone is in a corporate bubble or something like that. It's reassuring to know there will be other spaces and sometimes you're a place where you are going to grow so much could be. It doesn't mean that you're wrong and need fixing. It means that there are so many spaces in the world.

Mel White Parent Coach (51:39)

Yeah. No, and you can spend the time to discover that. And the last thing I want to say on all of this is that it's okay to change your mind because that's one thing that I will say about me is I've had over 50 jobs in my life. And whether they be in marketing, when I first got out of school, I was a personal trainer. was, you know, studied nutrition. Did it, did that for a while.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (51:39)

We don't have to be everywhere.

Ooh, good.

My gosh, it's all coming out.

Mel White Parent Coach (52:07)

I've done so many different things, but I think what a lot of people are afraid of is changing their mind. And we are fed this rhetoric. You go to school, you pick your subjects that are going to align with whatever you want to do after school. And then you go and do that thing, and you study more for it. Then you go and get into that job and you stay there, and you die. Like that is, that is what we're taught. That is what we're taught. It's that, you know, when you're in kindergarten, what do want to be when you grow up?

I wanna be a doctor. Great, I wanna be a fireman. Great. ⁓ You know what I wanted to be? I was actually looking back at my kindergarten ⁓ portfolio, because I moved house and mom gave me all my stuff. And I wrote in there, I wanted to be ⁓ a primary school teacher ⁓ or a world-famous author.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (53:00)

Okay, there's still time.

Mel White Parent Coach (53:02)

Hey, I'm writing a book right now. So it's like, there is still time, but also I haven't done any of those things. I've done a lot of other things, but it's okay to change your mind because I feel like, particularly adults, were quite bad at when someone does change their mind in judging them or saying, 'That's quite a risk.' Are you going to be okay? Or, you know, yeah, like that. ⁓ are you sure you've got such a good job in this?

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (53:12)

Yes.

for sure. ⁓

Mel White Parent Coach (53:29)

corporate job, like why would you leave that? You're on really good money. I just think there's a, there's this, the fear of change really can change your whole life, but also stop you from finding or changing your mind or doing those different things we're just talking about.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (53:47)

I would give the yes and to say we can try something new when we are doing the thing that's supporting us. Right.

Mel White Parent Coach (53:54)

Yes,

Yes, why, yeah, 100%. Although I'm very much an all-or-nothing person, but I agree with you.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (54:00)

Yeah, but you're you're looking at so you've started writing sorry you've started writing a book.

Mel White Parent Coach (54:06)

Yes, yes, about my parenting method, which is the curious parenting method. So it's my methodology that I created, it's trademarked, all of that fun stuff. It's what I use to help the parents ⁓ and yeah, I started writing a a couple weeks ago ⁓ and it's going good.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (54:22)

Just a couple of weeks ago, you started writing it. That's a big deal. And that shows you're still doing your main coaching and you're starting to write a book. It's, it's okay to try a few different things.

Mel White Parent Coach (54:33)

Yeah, well, if we're talking about that, I'm throwing every piece of spaghetti at the wall and seeing what sticks, which I love. Yes, so in that sense, yes, but if we think about purpose, it's all still a lining. You know, so I think that's that's important. But yeah, don't be afraid of change. think is yeah, kids, kids in particular, so scared of changing their mind for fear of what if.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (54:47)

for sure, yes.

Yes. Fear of what if, and the, and when we've put so much into something, then we don't want it to then shift. But so much of what you're saying is that your purpose can shift. You can become focused on something else. Look, I feel like we could talk all day.

Mel White Parent Coach (55:18)

I know

I'm thinking the same thing. We could just, yeah, talk for three years and then.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (55:23)

Yes.

I normally aim for these to be around an hour, but look, I think we need to really sum up if you'd like to share three focused things. Love having three of something. If you have three things that people can prioritise in just reassuring themselves and their their next step.

Mel White Parent Coach (55:39)

Yeah.

I love this because I also love threes. ⁓ I have three core pillars, and I think you can apply it to everything. So I'm going to share them. So the first one is curiosity, obviously, get curious, ask questions, never be afraid of asking questions. ⁓ Creativity, get creative with problem-solving solutions and innovation because those three things are going to just elevate everything else, right?

And then action. It's all well and good to get curious and ask questions, and be creative about it. But if you don't follow through, it's all a waste. So do the thing. Start the blog, write the book, you know, start the podcast, do the thing. Even if it doesn't like end up the way you wanted it, get curious again and just cycle back. Get curious, get creative, do it. Start again. Keep going back. Like it's the cycle. Yeah, that's it.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (56:46)

Be curious. Look,

Melanie White, thank you so much for talking and sharing all your insights.

Mel White Parent Coach (56:49)

Thank

Thank you, this has been so fun!

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (56:56)

anytime.

Mel White Parent Coach (56:58)

So good, yes, and I can't believe we actually don't live far from each other. That's so awesome.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (57:03)

It is awesome. Okay.

Show Notes and Transcript - Automatically Generated

https://www.motivatecollective.com

Keywords

productivity coaching, ADHD, entrepreneurship, time management, emotional regulation, neurodiversity, business strategies, personal growth, coaching techniques, self-awareness

Summary

In this conversation, Cindy Baker, a productivity coach, shares her journey from education to entrepreneurship, emphasising the importance of understanding ADHD and how it can be leveraged as a strength. She discusses strategies for managing time and focus, the significance of a servant mindset in business, and the need for realistic expectations when starting a business. Cindy also highlights the value of embracing differences and finding strengths in oneself and others, particularly in a mainstream system that often requires conformity.

Takeaways

Cindy empowers entrepreneurs to manage their time and energy effectively.

ADHD can be a superpower when understood and managed properly.

Transitioning from education to entrepreneurship can be gradual and fulfilling.

Young people should focus on their strengths rather than their weaknesses.

It's important to have realistic expectations when starting a business.

A servant mindset can lead to greater fulfilment in business.

Managing focus is crucial for success in entrepreneurship.

Understanding one's energy cycles can enhance productivity.

Cindy emphasises the importance of personal experience in coaching.

Building trust with clients involves sharing personal stories and experiences.

Titles

Unlocking Productivity: Insights from a Coach

ADHD as a Superpower in Business

Sound bites

"You can only do what you can do."

"Your mess can become your message."

"Don't quit your day job too soon."

Chapters

00:00 Introduction to Productivity Coaching

01:00 Understanding ADHD and Its Impact

08:00 Transitioning from Education to Entrepreneurship

11:48 Embracing Differences and Finding Strengths

17:43 Guiding Young People in a Mainstream System

23:42 Starting a Business: Key Considerations

31:30 The Role of Faith in Coaching

37:27 Balancing Adaptation and Authenticity

40:05 Managing Focus and Energy for Success

47:10 Final Thoughts on Entrepreneurship

Transcript

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (00:01)

Cindy Baker, welcome to the podcast. Where are you?

Cindy Baker (00:03)

Thank you for having me. Good to be here.

I'm in a suburb of Memphis, Tennessee, in the US.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (00:12)

Nice.

Awesome. And you said you are a productivity coach. For those who don't know, let's start off with what exactly do you do in that?

Cindy Baker (00:24)

Yeah, so I empower entrepreneurs and other kinds of creative professionals to overcome, overwhelm, and manage their time, their focus and their energy, really, so that they can grow their business without burning out.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (00:44)

We got so much to talk about with that. And we'll start off. said that you have ADHD. Is that a big part of how you run your business and how you guide people, how you work?

Cindy Baker (00:46)

Yeah.

Yeah, I mean, it's I have a background as an educator. I was a school counsellor and a teacher, and I worked with a lot of adolescents that had ADHD. And I thought, you know, I think I have this. And so I was diagnosed as an adult. And when I learned that I had ADHD, I started to learn about different strategies and practice some different ways of doing things that worked with the way my brain is wired.

And that's what I really started to see success. So I kind of went from, you know, being all over the place and having chaos in my life to being somebody that other people came to for advice. And that's kind of how the coaching program started.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (01:43)

What sorts of things did you see in yourself to realise that you have this?

Cindy Baker (01:48)

Yeah, so I had classic symptoms. was ⁓ late all the time and rushed, and I dealt with clutter, ⁓ had trouble regulating my emotions. I didn't manage time well. I was unorganised. ⁓ Just all the classic symptoms that you would think of.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (02:14)

The emotions as well, I hadn't heard that that's a part of it.

Cindy Baker (02:18)

Mm-hmm. Yeah, it's the front part of your brain, the prefrontal cortex handles executive functions. And one of those is kind of impulse control and regulating emotions. And so ⁓ that is a part of it. And it's not one that we hear about that much, but definitely.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (02:43)

curious for the impulsive decisions. To what extent does it help when someone is a bit more willing to dive in with a new idea, especially being entrepreneurial? And to what extent does it leave us a bit vulnerable?

Cindy Baker (03:01)

Yeah, I mean, you have to take risks if you're an entrepreneur, and you have to be willing to try new things. People with ADHD love new things, and we love novelty. We love to chase shiny objects, know, and ⁓ new things. But at the same time, ⁓ the way to handle it is to take calculated risks. So you don't want to just dive in headfirst without considering what else you have on your plate, you know, because that's how we get overcommitted on our schedule. ⁓ Or you don't want to impulse spend without thinking about a budget and things like that. So you do want to be able to think ahead and think about consequences, but you also don't need to be held back in fear and never take a risk, or you won't really move forward in your business. So there's a balance there.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (03:56)

It seems like there's an overlap then I'm learning so much about this already. I'm wondering if there's an overlap when people might be struggling with their intense feelings or maybe the emotions are flicking around a lot. And you mentioned the overspending. So is there an element of, because I don't identify with ADHD, but I feel like so many of these things are feeling very relatable.

Is it partly the impulsiveness of, I want this, but is it also the old attitude a lot of people can end up in, of buy this thing to make myself feel more comfortable.

Cindy Baker (04:35)

We are sure there's always, ⁓ you know, things that we do to try to make ourselves feel better. And some of those things are not healthy. ⁓ People with, with true ADHD have a lack of, or not a lack, but a shortage of dopamine in their brain, which is that feel good chemical. And so we ended up trying to manufacture it. So we'll, we'll sit there and, you know, scroll on our phone or something like that to.

to give us that little dopamine hit. So, ⁓ you know, spending, scrolling, all those kinds of things can give you that quick little high, but they're not always a healthy way to spend your time. So I think that's part of the reason.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (05:24)

Is there a way to get that dopamine hit from the work that we need to do instead?

Cindy Baker (05:30)

Yeah. And I think there's a, there's a misconception. People think that they have to feel motivated to take action. And, ⁓ so one of the things that I teach people in my coaching program is how to get started even when they don't feel like it. And it's not about just getting more willpower or making yourself motivated. There's a few brain tricks that you can do to lower that resistance. You know, for example, if there's something that you don't want to do, you can tell yourself, well, I only have to do it for five minutes. It's the five-minute rule. So, you know, you're more likely to start if you if you know you only have to do it for five minutes. But what happens is you do it for five minutes and at the end of the five minutes, you're, you're, the momentum kicks in a little bit and you're more likely to keep going. But if you need to stop, it's okay, because you said you were only going to do it for five minutes. So it gives yourself an out. So there's little tricks like that, that we talk about a lot ⁓that kind of ⁓ bypasses that, that dopamine and, and gets you going. And of course, if you, you know, if you, if you're only relying on feelings all the time, then you're never going to get anything done as an entrepreneur. Cause there's a lot of things we have to do that we don't want to do.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (06:55)

It takes a lot of discipline, and I'm guessing it's so much more involved than a 9 5 potentially.

Cindy Baker (07:05)

Being an entrepreneur, you mean? Yeah, yeah, I think a lot of people, they think, oh, well, I'll quit my nine-to-five and I'm just gonna, you know, sit on a balcony overlooking the beach and type on my computer and make a million dollars. It doesn't work like that. Being an entrepreneur is really one of the hardest things that you can do because everything depends on you. You know, eventually maybe you can make enough money to have a staff, but then you got to

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (07:07)

Being an entrepreneur, sorry.

Cindy Baker (07:35)

You have to supervise the staff. have to train the staff. So there's a lot of responsibility and a lot of moving parts. ⁓ So you wear a lot of different hats. You're doing everything. And I think people are surprised by that sometimes. And so they think it's going to be a lot easier than it is. So there is a lot involved for sure.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (08:00)

did you make the transition? So you worked in education and counseling, and even you were working with kids. So how did you make the decision and then also the steps to go from working with kids to working with entrepreneurs? And how did you decide that you wanted to do this instead?

Cindy Baker (08:05)

Mm hmm.

Yeah, well, was sort of a gradual, ⁓ it wasn't just like a bam, I made the decision, you know? ⁓ I actually, well, I'll tell you the story. My principal changed my job on me, and I wasn't really happy about it. And then that ended up happening several times because I am certified in too many things and I just...

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (08:44)

What do you mean?

You're certified? What are you certified in?

Cindy Baker (08:48)

⁓ Every subject grades four through eight. School counsellor, kindergarten through 12th grade, ⁓administrator, kindergarten through 12th grade. So, pretty much, I was very versatile, but that's not really what I wanted to do. So I kind of thought, you know, I want to be my own boss. I don't like this, somebody else, you know, putting me in a position that I don't really feel like is the best fit and

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (08:52)

gosh.

Cindy Baker (09:17)

⁓ and I adapted and I did fine, but, ⁓ that kind of put the bug in my, in my head at that time. And then, ⁓ I stumbled online, on some online courses and some coaches and things like that, and started kind of learning about this online world. And the first thing I did is actually started a travel blog, but then the pandemic hit and people stopped traveling. And so I ended up joining a business coaching program ⁓ and it fits really nicely with my counselling background ⁓ and education. ⁓ And I picked the niche of ⁓ productivity and ADHD because I felt like that's something that there's a real need for, and it's something that I know a lot about. I can help people. And there were already so many people

offering programs for students. And then sometimes there's some legal complications when you have to work with the school system and things like that. So that's why I chose adults. And I read somewhere that over 50 % of entrepreneurs have ADHD. Now, I don't know if that's true, but it does seem like that it draws those kind of people that get bored easily. They got a lot of ideas. They want to try things.

And so I just kind of, ⁓ I ended up attracting a lot of entrepreneurs and, ⁓ like I said, they don't all have ADHD, but they all kind of resonate with those, ⁓ struggles, get distracted easily, ⁓ get overwhelmed, don't manage their time well, things like that. So, yeah, so there's, that's kind of the Cliff Notes version. There's probably a longer story to that, but it just kind of gradually happened and, like I said, as I began to see success in my own life, ⁓ when I started helping other people, I really enjoyed it. I've always kind of been in helping professions, and I wanted to have a business, but I wanted it to be something that I felt like I was making a difference for good. I didn't want to just make money.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (11:34)

For sure. You want to actually have a purpose behind what you're doing. And so you've really seen that a lot of people who start their own business think differently. And that I think will be a great source of empathy. We know that some some big public personalities have even dyslexia, or people are

Cindy Baker (11:48)

Mm-hmm.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (12:02)

was seen to be possibly on the spectrum, things like that. So there are all these different types. And have you found that people are finding comfort in doing something for themselves instead of trying to fit the box and the mould of the mainstream system?

Cindy Baker (12:20)

for sure. I mean, my philosophy is that if you do have ADHD, it can actually be used as your superpower. You've probably heard that. You can have a competitive edge over others, but the trick is you have to learn how to work with the way that your brain is wired, which is a little bit different than traditional time management teaching. And if you can figure out how to work with your brain instead of fighting against it, trying to fit into somebody else's way of doing things. That's where that real freedom comes in. And people start to, you the light bulb comes on, people start to see, wow, there's another way to live. I don't have to be stressed out all the time. You know, I can actually get things done, get the important things done, have balance in my life. ⁓ And that's really rewarding to help people with. But there definitely is, you know, a difference between the way kind of the gurus out there teach things and doing things the way your brain is wired. So I'm really big on having a positive ⁓ perspective on ADHD or anything else that you have. I'm a person of faith. I believe everybody was created on purpose for a purpose, and that people who think differently have something to offer that nobody else does. There's a reason that they think outside the box. Some of the greatest inventions and really successful entrepreneurs are like that, are very creative and think outside the box. Don't do things the way everybody else does, you know?

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (14:11)

That's seriously reassuring. Reminding, reminding everybody that we're different for a reason and for a beneficial reason.

Cindy Baker (14:14)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (14:22)

Yeah, it was.

Cindy Baker (14:22)

Yeah, if everybody

was the same, it'd be a boring world. You know?

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (14:26)

Yes.

True. And have you seen that people are able to actually, here's a question within the people who you guide. Have you been seeing people coming up with fresh ideas and solutions in whichever spaces they are in because they think differently?

Cindy Baker (14:46)

Yeah, you know, not everybody is creative, but I do think that ⁓ everybody has some creativity in them and that can be brought out once they start to realise how to work with the way their brain is wired, you know, so definitely.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (15:06)

Definitely. So although it's, although you have found your space now working with adults, I have some questions because you did work with kids and in education for so long. It's worth asking about that because if someone has seen an area, then why not? Why not benefit from that experience? So I'm curious. I'm curious. Well, how long ago did you

Cindy Baker (15:20)

Mm-hmm.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (15:34)

were you last in that space. And I'm wondering what would you say to young people who know that they are different in, let's face it, a mainstream system or environment that still requires people to fit some norms even today?

Cindy Baker (15:57)

Mm-hmm. Yeah. That is a struggle for them sometimes. You know, sometimes they have to try to just play the game a little bit in order to ⁓ survive. But I always tell young people, find the thing that you're really good at and get better at that, because that's where your self-esteem is going to grow. For instance, if you're not good at math or whatever else, but you're great at art.

Then just draw all the time, you know, get as good at it as you can, because that's probably what job you're going to have one day, you know. Everybody has different talents and different interests. And so if you can figure out with a young person what really lights them up and what their ⁓ talent is, their natural ability, their interests, and instead of constantly

working on the areas of weakness and reminding them of where they're failing, you want to also compliment them on the area that they're strong in. And I think that's one of the things that really helps. If that makes, I don't know if that makes sense, but.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (17:13)

It really does. And I'm hoping that today's young people they're probably having more opportunities perhaps to explore different strengths online if something isn't taught in schools. But I know, I know, just remembering what it was like when I was young, there wasn't, I didn't see at least a way for me to run a podcast back then, anything like that. So I think that I'm hoping they have more opportunities.

And so you're saying focus on the strengths, don't dwell on the things they are not so good at. That can probably help people of any age to focus on your strengths.

Cindy Baker (17:56)

Yeah. I mean, you have to work on the challenges and you have to, ⁓ I mean, those, those are the strategies that I teach in coaching is how do you, ⁓ overcome your challenges. But if we just spent all the time on that, that's kind of depressing, you know, so, or discouraging, maybe not depressing, but, ⁓ you know, ⁓ finding the thing that you're good at and continuing to grow in that area.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (18:11)

it.

It could be.

Cindy Baker (18:23)

makes you feel good, you know, it gives you ⁓ not just job options, but it gives your self-esteem a boost. And I think that's part of it. You just gotta have a balance.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (18:37)

It empowers your identity. So we do still need to look at the things that we are not as, as confident in. And I'm so keen to ask about that because some of those hurdles still continue in any age and during any age, I was never feeling like I was a math person. to this day.

Cindy Baker (18:39)

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Okay.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (19:05)

I'm just not so, I'm so curious about how you guide people who set up a business because maybe they, like you said, they don't like being told what to do all the time, or they like variety or independent decisions, anything like that. They start up a business for all these reasons, but then there's all this math behind it or having to be ultra organised.

Cindy Baker (19:32)

Mm-hmm.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (19:33)

How do you guide that? You tell them just get someone else to do those things, but they still, it's still on them at the end of the day, the accountability. How do you guide that?

Cindy Baker (19:42)

Yeah, when you first started, you don't have the money to just get somebody else to do it. So you do have to kind of do everything. And, you know, I just remind entrepreneurs that no one was born knowing how to do all of this. You know, everybody has to learn, and everybody can learn. So, ⁓ for instance, I'm not particularly gifted in technology.

But I run an online business, so I had to learn a lot of things. ⁓ you have to have a, what I call a growth mindset instead of a fixed mindset. So, for instance, if you say, Well, I'm just not good at technology, that's a fixed mindset. Like I've never been good at it. I never will be good at it. I can't grow. It's just fixed, you know? ⁓But a growth mindset would say, I'm not good at technology yet, but I'm working on it. I'm learning. It's a growth mindset, and you have to have that as an entrepreneur. And so you have to be able to be willing to learn things that you don't know. And sometimes it's frustrating. Sometimes it means I got to watch 8 million YouTube videos of how to do something. then of ⁓ course, getting somebody to help in the areas where you're struggling is great, but you don't always have that option. So sometimes you have to be able to, you know, learn, learn new things or just not do everything. You know, sometimes people think they need to do things the way their business coach does. Well, that business coach has probably been in business for 10 plus years, you know, and they didn't start out there.

So that's a temptation is to compare your chapter one with somebody else's chapter 10 and think that's where you're supposed to be. But no, like I said, no one was born knowing how to run an online business. have to, you have to learn and everybody starts there. Everybody that you're comparing yourself to has something that they feel like they don't know much about. It may be a different than what yours is, but everyone has those areas.

And so yeah, it's great if you can delegate, the thing about that too is that ⁓ if you don't know anything about how to do it yourself and you just hand it over to somebody else, you really don't have any way to monitor what they're doing and make sure they're doing it the way you want them to. So you really need to kind of know a little bit about everything in your business.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (22:29)

Do you go with starting off with at least a simplified basic understanding of all the essentials? I mean, I'm wondering some people were hoping to be an expert in everything, but I heard that Branson, for example, had to have people explain to him what the net and gross are and

Cindy Baker (22:44)

Mm-hmm.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (22:56)

It was, it was very much you have a net and it's getting this. So do you see people really needing to reel it in and get the basic level understanding of something? And is that feeling a bit more achievable?

Cindy Baker (22:57)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, I think you can only do what you can do. And if you try to take on too much, you're going to water down everything you're trying to do. And so you have to get, get something down first before you add something new to it. ⁓ And I think that's, know, some people they want to, they want to have, you know, five different funnels and run ads and do this and do that. And they don't need to be doing all that the beginning. You know, they might just need a ⁓ payment link, a calendar link and a Zoom or something like that or a Facebook live, you know, and just as simple as that, you know, just get on video and talk about something and then say, Hey, I've got this. Here's the payment link, you know, you don't even have to have a funnel, you don't have to have all of that at the beginning, you know. ⁓

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (23:52)

simplify.

Cindy Baker (24:12)

And you can even say, Hey, this is brand new. I don't even have a fancy landing page built or anything yet. And I've done that before. Sometimes I've said, you know, I don't even have this built out yet, but if you want it, you know, here's how you pay for it. I'll send you a confirmation email as your receipt and then I'll give you access to the course or whatever it is. And sometimes you do have to just simplify it and not be so

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (24:20)

You have, did that go?

Cindy Baker (24:40)

I think sometimes we get so perfectionist, ⁓ perfection, how was the word, perfectionistic, I guess, you know, you know, and then we try to make it more complicated than it needs to be. But really, well, you eventually would benefit from having them, but at the very beginning, you know, you just need to make some money so that you can move forward.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (24:44)

Yes.

Fictionist.

So you don't need the funnels necessarily.

Cindy Baker (25:09)

And so you have to just, if you just keep waiting until everything's in place, you're going to get behind financially, you know, so because you're probably going to be ⁓ paying for some things along the way. And you got to, you have to make it simple so that you can, so that you can do it, you know, cause you're not going to have help at the very beginning.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (25:34)

start with the basics and then get a bit more fancy as you go along.

Cindy Baker (25:38)

Yeah. I mean, the first thing for people who just brand new, just thinking of starting a business, the first thing is you have to, you have to decide who your audience is. Who do you, who do you want to target? And then you find out what is their, ⁓ struggle? What's their problem that they would be willing to pay money to get a solution for, you know? ⁓ and you can find that out different ways. I you can.

You can look at Facebook groups, and I looked at Facebook groups of people with ADHD, and I read their comments, and I saw the different things they were saying that they struggled with, and things like that. ⁓ And then you develop your service or your product to meet the needs of those people. You don't start with the product and then just decide to sell it because maybe nobody wants it. Maybe nobody needs it.

And then you've just wasted all that time. So first you got to find out what, what are people, know, who, do I want to target and what are their struggles? What's their pain? They call them pain points, you know? And so then I'm going to develop a solution and then you have to, you have to be able to say why your solution is different than others. Why, you know, you have to, have to, has to be a solution that you know something about.

because no one's going to believe you if you know, I mean, if I, if I went and tried to sell accounting services or something like that, nobody's going to buy that from me because they can tell. don't really know what I'm talking about. So, you know, it's just step by step like that. ⁓

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (27:14)

you

Actually, there's a point you applied your personal lived experience of having identified with ADHD. And do you find that people are finding more strength in what they are offering when they are bringing their personal experience into what they do?

Cindy Baker (27:41)

Sure. Yeah, I think, you know, I decided my mess was going to become my message, is how I say it. So I ended up saying, Okay, these were my struggles. This is how I overcame it. And now I can help you do the same thing. And that really resonates with people. Whereas if I just said, hey, I have a master's in counselling, and I read a lot about ADHD in a book and here's what you should do.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (27:48)

Nice.

Cindy Baker (28:08)

That is not going to fly as well. But if I say, this is something I personally struggled with, here's what I did. Here's how it worked. Here's what my clients did. Here's how it worked in their lives. So stories, ⁓ success stories, testimonials, those are going to sell a lot better than just information. Because you can get information for free on the internet.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (28:34)

You really can.

Cindy Baker (28:35)

It, but you gotta have, you gotta be offering more. And I always tell people, you know, I do offer strategies, ADHD friendly strategies, but you can get those for free anywhere. The difference is that I, I give the structure to apply that specifically to your situation. And then I give you the support that you need to implement those strategies. And you can't really get that without a coach, I think. So many people try on their own, but it's very difficult.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (29:10)

You provide the guidance and also the lived experience. What I appreciate about you is that you get the credibility from having the professional background, but then the relatability from who you are.

Cindy Baker (29:28)

Yeah. Yeah. And I think, you know, especially nowadays with, you know, AI and deep fake and all that, you, really need to take the time to let people get to know you and trust you and, hopefully, like you, but because they're not going to buy from you if they don't. ⁓ and so I do a lot of free training just to do that, to get people to see my teaching style.

You know, always tell people, hey, I'm, you know, for 20 years, I explained things to ⁓ middle schoolers. So I know how to break down complex things into simple, step-by-step, easy-to-understand. And I think people really relate to that. They like that, you know, ⁓ because you can overcomplicate things. So that's one of the things, for instance, that people really like about me.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (30:01)

You

Cindy Baker (30:25)

I try to let people get to know me. I serve people who ⁓ have a faith or don't, or all different faiths, but they know where I'm coming from ⁓ that I have a Christian faith. And so some people are going to relate to that. And some people, if they hate that, they need to know that about me. So that's who I am. You know what I mean? So I kind of like to let people get to know me. ⁓

They need to know that I was a teacher. They need to know I'm married and my grandma, you know, these different things about me that helps them decide if they can trust me or not, because I'm, I do not ever want anyone to, um, uh, to think that they got, they're getting one thing and then join my program and find out they're getting something else. You know, I want them to, to really know me and know what they're getting. If that makes sense.

You were saying that you're, you said that who you are shapes how you relate to your clients, your audiences and the faith. I wanted to look at that for a second because the faith.

Cindy Baker (32:11)

Yeah.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (32:31)

I think we're living in a really interesting time. And I think that some people get really nervous about religion. For me, I came from a religious background when I was young. I'm sort of on the fence about religion, but what I like about particular people of faith is that they see the inherent value in people. And I think we live in a culture where

We feel like we're more valuable when we have achieved something, when we have a title. I will be somebody when I'm this. And do you find that you're able to really see the inherent value in people more because of your faith?

Cindy Baker (33:16)

Yeah, I think so. And like I said, I don't really talk about it that much in my coaching, but ⁓ I mean, I've had a long-time coaching client who was an atheist and every once in a while she would ask me, you know, she was curious. So someone asked me, I'll say something, but I think that the one thing that they do see is that I care. ⁓ And sometimes, honestly, sometimes that keeps me from making a lot of money because I sometimes will help people for free when I really should be, you know, more hard-nosed, supposed to make some money, you know. But there are, I have a soft heart, and there are people that, you know, they pay me, they join the coaching, and then I end up helping them more than they thought. And they're pleasantly surprised, you know.

I'll answer emails in between Zoom calls and do different things like that. Send them resources that they didn't ask for that I just thought would be helpful. And I do, like I said, ⁓ try to help people see the way that their brain is wired as a gift instead of trying to fight against it all the time. And I think that that's something that people appreciate because I do believe that every, like you said, everybody has inherent value, and we're supposed to be different. And there's a reason for that. So I have a little phrase I call three P power, and the three P's are positive, prepared, productive. So the positive is a big thing. Cause I've joined, like I said, when I was trying to find out what ADHD people need, I would join these Facebook groups, and I'm not going to call any out, but there's supposed to be support groups. And it was just, you know, a wine fest. was like, ⁓ my life is terrible because I'm ADHD. the, you know, and I thought, yeah.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (35:22)

Was it groups for neurodivergent people?

Cindy Baker (35:27)

Yeah.

And I thought, no, that's not, that's a wrong way to look at it, you know? And, so I really don't like making excuses or blaming, ⁓ the way God made you, I don't like blaming that because I've seen how people can be super successful and productive. The key is learning how to do it a little bit differently. And that's really what I teach.

So ⁓ definitely, people enjoy that different twist because they're probably used to people blaming, you know, and people expecting everybody to understand them all the time. And I've said, you know what? Nobody, it's not their job to understand you. You're not going to be understood by everybody, and it's okay. You know, that's why a support group like mine is so great, because everyone gets each other.

And they're able to support each other and accept those differences, you know.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (36:31)

Yes. I think what you're saying aligns with an attitude I heard of that's called neuroaffirming. And I don't, I don't get into the theoretical side of all of that so much. I'm not a therapist. I was originally in a marketing background, but what I'm seeing in what you're saying is that being different isn't a problem to fix. It's something to align with.

Cindy Baker (36:54)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah. And I mean, again, there has to be that balance because you do have challenges that come with being neurodivergent, and you need to work on those challenges in order to fit in society and be successful. ⁓ For instance, time management. If you don't manage your time, you're never going to be successful in business. know, so that's something you have to work on. But at the same time, you have to also see that you have some strengths and be able to accept both and be able to live in that balance, if that makes sense.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (37:36)

For some reason that aligns with the phrase I heard growing up of be in the world, but, ⁓ but not of the world, be in the world, but not of the world. And I know it had a different intention, but I think that when we know that we are so different, do you think that it helps to say, okay, I'm going to adapt to some things that are needed to just interact with the world, but I'm still going to be me at the same time in other ways.

Cindy Baker (37:45)

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's just like, ⁓ like with young people, I would try to teach them that, Hey, it's okay to speak, ⁓ real casually and use slang and all that with your buddies. But if you go on a job interview, you have to talk differently. You have to use correct English, and you have to not use all that slang. And so you're adapting to that situation and we do that all the time, context switching. And so in order to be successful, you have to be willing, you can't expect to just barge through life, act however you want, and expect everybody else to be okay with it. Because the reality is they're not gonna be okay with it. So you have to know when to pull it in and when to let it out, if that makes sense.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (38:54)

You need to speak the language that other people understand.

Cindy Baker (39:04)

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, if I were to go into a boardroom of executives, I would speak a lot differently than I would in a classroom of middle school kids. And that's okay. You know, I don't need to expect one group to adapt to the other. I'm the one that needs to adapt. And so that's one of the things that, that's one of the reasons that coaching is so helpful because then you learn more about yourself and you learn what your strengths and weaknesses are and how to adapt without giving up who you are. ⁓ If that makes sense. There's so many entrepreneurs that are so creative and think outside the box and just do things differently, march to the beat of a different drum. And that's great. ⁓ But they also have to work on time management, organisation, and things like that to be successful.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (40:05)

Yes. And I appreciate your angle to coaching so much because there'll be some out there who want a business coach who has grown a giant business, but they wouldn't have the counselling background that you have. And what I'm seeing is that you are giving business owners the life skills, essentially, things like managing your time.

In my experience, we need that for all aspects of life, where things would be chaos.

Cindy Baker (40:38)

Yeah. I mean, if you can't manage your focus, ⁓ you're never going to be successful. That's just the, that's just, think managing your focus is more important than managing your time because we all have the same amount of time, but, ⁓ it's how you spend it that matters. Some people will say, Well, I just wish I had more hours in the day. And I always say, well, you don't need more hours. You just need to do what matters in the hours that you have. That's the key.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (40:45)

Your focus.

Vroom.

Cindy Baker (41:07)

So that's what I help people with. know, what are the, what matters? That's where you need to be focused.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (41:15)

Is that actually that's really interesting? The focus, it's not just how can I not be distracted. It's what is the thing that matters that I need to focus on.

Cindy Baker (41:29)

Yeah, I mean, what are you trying not to be distracted from? What are you doing that you need to not be distracted from? So one of the things that I suggest is that you just kind of do a brain dump where you pour everything out of your head and write it down. No organisation, just get it all, all the things you're trying to remember, the to-dos and all that. And then you need to pick no more than three

Each day, there are high-impact tasks, things that the outcome is really going to move the needle in your business. And those are your priority. And you have to guard that with your life because that's if you don't do those things, it's going to it's going to have a negative effect on your business. You could you could not check your email, and it's not necessarily going to make or break things, you know, but if you don't ever talk to clients, it's going to make a difference, you know, so the problem is we end up spending our time doing the non-important things because those are easy and there's no friction there. You know, it's hard to do the important things. So, ⁓ but if you can knock those out at the beginning of the day,

Then even if the whole rest of the day goes crazy, you've already won because you've done your three important things, you know? So that helps a little bit.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (43:02)

So sometimes we're doing the easier things because it's more comfortable, but sometimes the easy thing isn't what's going to have the impact.

Cindy Baker (43:12)

Yeah, yeah, it's like ⁓ there is an illustration that I like. If you see your day or your life as a jar and the tasks that you have to do are rocks, pebbles, and sand. And if you put the sand in first, the sand is the easy stuff, admin things, meetings, email, then, and then you try to put the pebbles, which are the important things, but they're not quite as urgent.

And then you try to put the really important and urgent things that all the sand is going to spill out and it's not going to fit. So you have to put the rocks in first and then the pebbles and the sand fit around it. And I like to think of it that way because it's a visual way. You don't want to waste your, you know, the time of day when you're the most focused and the most, you have the highest energy. You don't want to waste that time.

doing silly admin tasks just because you don't feel like doing the hard thing, you know?

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (44:13)

that analogy, that way of explaining that you only can fit so much in your day and you need to fit the things that will make more change. And it's about managing your energy by the sense as well that if you put your energy into the little things, then you're going to be too exhausted perhaps for the things that are going to change your life.

Cindy Baker (44:38)

Yeah, definitely. I mean, we all have energy cycles throughout the day, and ⁓ you don't want to waste your peak energy time on the admin things, you know, because you can do that other times of the day.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (44:56)

You can. So actually there's an idea. Do you have some people doing the easier things, like the admin or maybe their content, in the tired moments at the end of the day?

Cindy Baker (45:10)

Well, everybody's different. know, not everybody's tired at the end of the day. Some people, it takes them a while to get going, you know? So I do tell them to pay attention for about a week and just kind of track, take notice, maybe take some notes in the journal or something about when are you the most alert, focused, when...

When are you emotionally up, you know, those types of things and start to kind of plan your day around those energy cycles and see what kind of difference it makes. ⁓ Because some people, you know, they get carried away with something, they get really into it and they do what we call hyper-focus and they'll just work, lose track of time, you know. And if that's the case, then ⁓ they can set a timer.

and say, you know, I'm going to work on this for this amount of time. And when the timer goes off, I'm going to stop. Otherwise, they get carried away, and then they run out of time to do the other things, you know? So there's a lot of little tricks that we teach. What's that?

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (46:17)

It's almost like an addiction. Like, we just get, sorry, it's almost like an addiction. Like, we just get hooked on something that we're ultra interested in.

Cindy Baker (46:25)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah. Mm-hmm. And if you can channel that to your advantage, that can really be a good thing, but you have to be able to ⁓ be aware of it before you can channel it to your advantage, you know?

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (46:30)

That's relatable.

So the first step is to know yourself and take the time for a little while to observe the patterns.

Cindy Baker (46:52)

Yeah, yeah. Because a lot of times, you probably just haven't thought about it. You know, we just sort of do things without thinking. ⁓ And so paying attention for about a week, you know, because that's like give you a pretty accurate picture.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (47:10)

about a week. If someone is to wind up a little bit, I know that if someone is just getting started, considering switching to owning their own business, what are three things you want anyone to know when they are taking that leap and trying to do it in a wise way, aligning with how they are built?

Cindy Baker (47:35)

⁓ Well, I think one thing is, don't quit your day job too soon. Do it on the side until ⁓ you're sure that you're going to be financially okay if you quit your job. Because too many people just start to get so interested in their business that they lose interest in their regular job, and they don't want to do it anymore. They get burned out.

And so they think, well, I'll just quit, and then I'll have more time to work on my business, and it'll be more. But if you haven't made it profitable part-time, they probably not gonna make it profitable full-time either. You have to be able to know how to make sales before you. So don't quit your day job too soon. You're nine to five or whatever you want to call it. I think the next thing is just to check expectations.

You know, and there are a lot of people who put false images out on the internet, you know, and I don't mean just visual images, but I mean, like they'll say, they'll have copy that says, you know, my client made $700,000 in three months. Here's, here's how she did it. And I'm thinking, you haven't even made, like, I might know the person, and I'm like, you didn't even make something, you know, so you have to be careful that you don't.

Look at people on the internet, you know, and maybe they're showing their highlight reel, and you're comparing your everyday to that. So your expectation has to be realistic that it's hard work. It takes a long time to get it going. ⁓ But small, consistent actions over time have a compounded effect. So you have to just keep doing the right thing day after day after day. ⁓

You know, and then I guess to just keep a servant's heart, you know, don't be in it for making money because you're not going to be happy. Money doesn't make you happy. You know, it helps. I'm not going to lie. You know, nobody wants to not have enough money. But at the same time, you know, they've done studies of

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (49:48)

Thanks.

Cindy Baker (50:02)

people who, like, how much money they had to have to be happy. And the happiest people were not the richest people. They were the people kind of in the middle, which was interesting. It's almost like when you get more money, you more responsibility and more, you know, more problems that come with it. So focus instead on helping people, and the money will come, you know? So keep that servant heart, you know, have a... ⁓

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (50:07)

Thank

Thanks.

Cindy Baker (50:33)

try to leave the world a better place, have an impact instead of trying to just make more money. There's a lot more of it, and those are some.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (50:42)

A servant.

Service mindset. Absolutely. So keep your day job as long as you need to and, and be realistic and have a servant mindset. They are serious lessons everybody needs to know for sure. Cindy Baker, thank you so much for taking the time to teach from all your wisdom. Thank you.

Cindy Baker (50:52)

Mm-hmm.

Thank you.

Thank you for having me. I enjoyed it.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (51:12)

Awesome. It's been great. Okay.

Keywords

parent coaching, youth mentoring, curiosity, authenticity, social media, forgiveness, neurodiversity, personal growth, veganism, community

Summary

In this conversation, Melanie White, a parent coach and youth mentor, shares her journey from a corporate marketing background to supporting parents and teens. She emphasises the importance of curiosity, creativity, and action in personal growth and coaching. The discussion touches on themes of authenticity, the pressures of social media, and the challenges faced by neurodivergent individuals in the workplace. Melanie offers insights on forgiveness, moving forward from mistakes, and the significance of finding one's community. She concludes with three core pillars for personal development: curiosity, creativity, and action.

Takeaways

Melanie White transitioned from marketing to parent coaching.

Curiosity is essential for personal growth and understanding.

Forgiveness is key to moving forward from mistakes.

Authenticity in social media is crucial for mental health.

The pressure of appearance affects both teens and adults.

Neurodiversity should be embraced and understood in workplaces.

Finding your community is important for support and connection.

It's okay to change your mind about your career or life path.

Loneliness is a significant issue in today's society.

Everyone has a purpose, regardless of their personality type.

Titles

Navigating Parenting and Youth Mentoring

The Journey from Marketing to Coaching

Sound bites

"You will find your people."

"Loneliness is a pandemic."

"We all have a purpose."

Chapters

00:00 Introduction and Background

01:09 Transition from Marketing to Parenting Coaching

03:12 Supporting Parents and Teens

05:47 Future-Focused Coaching

07:30 Forgiveness and Moving Forward

09:05 Curiosity as a Tool for Growth

11:13 Authenticity in Social Media

13:32 Overcoming the Fear of Judgment

15:07 Perspective on Appearance and Impact

17:43 Reality vs. Social Media Expectations

18:53 Navigating Social Media Influences

21:36 The Pressure of Perfection

23:09 The Role of Authenticity in Parenting

24:58 The Impact of Consistent Messaging

27:11 Personal Choices and Public Perception

31:01 Navigating Dietary Choices and Social Expectations

33:58 Understanding Justice Sensitivity in Young People

36:18 The Impact of Neurodiversity on Social Interactions

40:18 Finding Your Community and Embracing Differences

51:39 The Importance of Purpose and Embracing Change

Transcript

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (00:01)

Welcome, Melanie White. How are you doing?

Mel White Parent Coach (00:03)

I love that there's two Melanies.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (00:07)

I know, I've had quite a few Melanies on this show. I know, it's not that common, it?

Mel White Parent Coach (00:11)

Really? ⁓

Hmm, I think not.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (00:16)

I heard that Melanie is French for dark or black, so I like to get really serious.

Mel White Parent Coach (00:21)

Correct, it's Greek for the dark. Yes, I have done the research. Yes, I love it.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (00:24)

⁓ great.

Yeah, we have to research our name.

So speaking of backgrounds of things, would you like to start off with, for those who don't know, what you do and how you ended up doing what you do?

Mel White Parent Coach (00:45)

Yes, great question. So I'm a parent coach and a youth mentor. And I specialise in working with parents with tweens and teens. So kind of from age 10 all the way through to like early 20s. ⁓ And I started off actually in marketing. So my background's in marketing. I've spent the last sort of eight years in like corporate marketing life.

⁓ And then about halfway through that, I decided to shift into youth mentoring. So, working with the teens. And then, kind of after a year of doing that, I thought this is all well and good, but I'm doing all this great work and like loving working with the teens. But then the teens get home, and the parents have no idea what they're on about. So then I was like, okay, there's a gap here, and I need to kind of bridge that gap. So now I work with both.

So ⁓ yeah, that's kind of how I ended up here.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (01:43)

So how did you make that transition? Did you need to upskill in some way? How did you go from marketing to this?

Mel White Parent Coach (01:52)

Yeah, great question. So I've always been a leader with Girl Guides Australia. So I grew up as a Girl Guide, always worked with girls and young women, and I've always volunteered there. So I did that for many, many years and still do that every Monday night, which I love.

⁓ But sort of leaned into my passion and purpose in that way and I actually went on a retreat after being really burnt out from the corporate world I just was like I'm taking myself off to Bali as you do and ⁓ I basically was like doing some meditation with my life coach at the time and I was like this is what I want to do. This is my purpose. This is what I'm meant to be doing; marketing is all well and good. It's a great skill, but it's not my like life goal, purpose, mission.

⁓ But working with young people and helping them have the best possible experience as a teenager is my goal, and that starts with the parents. So, yeah.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (02:50)

Interesting, interesting. How, how do you support parents and what sort of, what sort of challenges have you seen parents facing, and how do you connect? Sorry to bundle a few questions together, but how are you connecting your form of support with other types of support that parents need?

Mel White Parent Coach (03:06)

Yeah.

Great question. Like coming back to, I forgot to answer your question about what I had to do to upskill, right? So that kind of ties into this. So I had I've got certifications in live coaching, I kind of started with that. And I thought that's a good place to start. And then I upskilled into adolescent psychology. And now I'm studying to be a registered counsellor. So in that sense, that's kind of my realm of scope. And so the type of support that I offer is a lot of group support workshops, one-on-one. And my main piece and parcel is being this bridge between the parent and the teen, which is where things seem to get lost or there's this disconnect, right? So for me, my job is, as you know, I've just turned 30, so I'm kind of smack bang in the middle of, I'm still quite like, can remember myself being a teen and reflect on those lived experiences. I'm not a parent.

Yet, and so I'm not quite in that space. So I have that realm of possibility where both parties are open to listening to what I have to say And so it's less about you know Me being the expert and it's more about sharing those lived experiences and everything I do is based around curiosity So if I can get the parents curious about different things and trying new things and if I can get the kids curious about being open to new things and understanding where their parents are coming from, you're just going to have a connection naturally. So that's how I've kind of done it in a sense.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (04:47)

Right, right. So you're basically helping people to explore their own curiosity. And from what I understand about coaching, it's how people are going to find their next step. Whereas therapy can sometimes be trying to fix a problem or delve into someone's past, but what you do, you're, you're focusing on how to make the next step and, and get a bit decisive.

Is that sort of where people aim?

Mel White Parent Coach (05:19)

Yes, so I like to think of myself as future-focused. And yes, it's important to think about what has been done. But I am a strong believer in what's done is done. And we can only control what we do tomorrow or what we do next. Right? So I do a lot of work in like the circle of control and looking at what's in our realm of control, particularly for parents. That's a tough one, as their kids transition to being teenagers from kids, where you do have a lot more control.

You have to learn to let go a little bit, and that's hard. But when we do look at the circle of control, it's like, what is in that, that circle for you as a parent and for you as a team and making sure that, yeah, we're looking forward, not backwards because it's very easy, particularly for teenagers to go, oh, well, mom and dad, they did this and that really upset me and I don't trust them now. And so, and same thing.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (06:15)

focusing on the past.

Mel White Parent Coach (06:16)

That's right. And same for the parents, like, well, my teen betrayed my trust by sneaking out or underage drinking or whatever it is. And my job is to come in and facilitate and be like, okay, things have happened that have gotten us to where we are now, but what are we going to do next? That's going to shift that because we can't dwell on that. Even though it's happened, we have to have forgiveness, and we have to move forward. Otherwise, we have nothing.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (06:45)

think that that theme there, that aim is something that we can all learn from, because a lot of people listening will not be a parent of an adolescent, but we might be perhaps really stuck in the past, and even we might have made mistakes ourselves. I know that I can have moments where I'm thinking about a mistake I made, but then, well, what's going to happen next? So

Mel White Parent Coach (07:10)

Mm-hmm.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (07:14)

In all of your coaching and learning to do counselling and doing that, have you been exploring how can anyone just take action to move forward instead of living in the past?

Mel White Parent Coach (07:30)

you

Yeah, and it's, it is a powerful one that you can apply to any situation. So obviously my niche is parents and teens, but you think about these core principles, and I do have people messaging me a lot, going, I'm not a parent, I'm not a teen, but what you're saying makes sense, and I'm going to try it. So you're very right. The principles at their core are applicable to any situation. And so if we come back to curiosity, if you are again thinking about something that you've done or a mistake that you've made, and I was just thinking about this earlier with someone, it's about how do you make it a learning moment rather than a failure?

And particularly with young people, it's how do you forgive yourself so that you can move forward? Forgive yourself, but then also it needs to come from both sides, just like in any relationship. You have to both forgive and come into this place where you're like, okay, we mess up, we're human, and it's actually okay. And be vulnerable with that because I think sometimes as adults, we are very defensive of our mistakes, and we're very easy to go, well, I'm never gonna do that again and then next week I'm gonna do the same thing. It's like.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (08:45)

Yes, actually, there's a question.

How do we forgive ourselves when I feel like I'm dealing with this right now, and maybe other people are as well? So I hope this will really resonate that sometimes, because we are distracted or just not thinking, we make the same mistake again. How do you go about forgiving yourself in all that?

Mel White Parent Coach (08:56)

Mm.

Yeah.

Ask myself questions, and if or if it's someone that I'm talking to, I ask questions. Now the questions I'm asking are not like interrogating questions, like why did you do that, or it's more about getting curious and going, what got in the way, you know what got in the way of me not doing that thing or doing that thing, achieving that goal. If it's like if we use a really simple example of like okay, I'm

I'm not gonna eat McDonald's for a whole week. People do this all the time, right? I'm not gonna eat McDonald's for a whole week. You make it a whole day. And then the next day, you're like, you buy your McDonald's and you eat it. And then you're on that repeat pattern, right? You do it every week. You start on the Monday, and you go, I'm not gonna have McDonald's. How do you forgive yourself? Well, you ask yourself questions. You reflect in that moment, and you go, 'What has brought me here? And how can I create a stopgap in myself so that I can take a moment and go, okay. Really feel like McDonald's. I know that my intention was to not do that. What could I do instead? And that's what I mean by getting curious and having fun with it. It's not about like being super strict with yourself or again, like punishing yourself. It's about, okay, maybe I'll go for a drive, or maybe I'll go for a walk, or maybe I'll pat my dog to give me that same feeling. What is the feeling or the intention behind that choice?

So with McDonald's, maybe it's like, want dopamine. I want something to give me that quick fix of like, yum, that tastes really good. Is there something else that I can do in my life that's gonna give me a similar feeling? So I just like to ask myself those questions. What is the purpose? What is the intention of whatever it is that I've done? And if it's a mistake, what's the purpose or intention behind what's happened here? And what can I intentionally do differently?

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (11:00)

Right. What can I intentionally do differently? Do you ever find yourself or people you work with needing to make the most of an odd situation? Make the most of it.

Mel White Parent Coach (11:13)

Yes, yes. ⁓ I feel like sometimes when you think about intention and why you're doing something, and let's take the scenario of you have made a mistake, maybe it's you've upset someone. That's a common one in adult life. You know, you maybe say the wrong thing and you consistently say the wrong thing, right? And maybe it rubs people the wrong way.

You have the, your intention is to not hurt that person. Your intention is to get an answer or, you know, share how you're feeling in that moment. So when someone is in that space of consistently feeling like, well, I'm failing, why am I failing? I'm just asking simple questions or yeah, I'm trying to make the most of something. It's just taking that.

I think that stop gap of three seconds to breathe and think before you speak or do or whatever it is, and just giving yourself a bit of grace. ⁓ But also, and this is my famous quote that I love is, it's actually nobody's business. You know, how you feel about yourself and how they feel about you. Right, so if you love yourself, great, nobody needs to know.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (12:26)

good.

Mel White Parent Coach (12:31)

You need to know. And same for if you don't like me, that's not my business. Like, right? So not my problem. That's a you problem. So it's not about being ⁓ not empathetic to other people's feelings, but it's about being authentic.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (12:35)

It's not your problem.

It's about being authentic. And I think what you brought up there about worrying about how other people feel about what you're doing. That's, that's such a thing now, I think, with social media and with personal branding. And I think even I, I personally, became a little bit too absorbed in the politics in the news. And I think it's because I wasn't distracted enough. I think.

And I'm wondering whether whether you have experienced yourself or with other people, just worrying too much about what other people think in general. And I would, by the way, I'd really appreciate some examples, just maybe a story, something you experienced. Surely you must've been worried about what other people think at some point.

Mel White Parent Coach (13:32)

Mm. Yeah, 100%.

Yes. ⁓ I think a good example for this is when I first started. So I've been in marketing for a while, right? But I've always been behind the scenes, you know, doing the backend stuff, creating websites, doing the whatever and doing the data and all of that. And when I started this business three, four years ago now, ⁓ my sales coach at the time said, 'You're going to have to get in front of the camera. And I was like, 'No way.' Right. And I was like, that's a hard no. I was like, I'll do a podcast. Fine. You just hear my voice. It's great. Whatever. Um, but he was like, no, you're going to have to create some reels and you're going to have to do some stuff in the, you know, be the face of your business. And actually, as you said earlier, personal brand, and it took so much, so much effort for me to get over that. Number one, imposter syndrome.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (14:10)

I know the feeling.

Mel White Parent Coach (14:38)

which is the classic example. Like, what am I doing here? Why am I showing up? Nobody cares what I have to say. Like all of this stuff, you know, and then also showing up in a way, like at the very start, you'll see like a lot of my videos, very curated, very like, you know, the hair's done, the makeup's done. And now on the daily, I'm showing up on my reels, like straight out of my pyjamas or straight out of a Pilates class, because I guess the shift there is, yeah, like you said, not really caring what other people think about how I look, because it's more about the message. Right? So I had to think about intention and go, right, what, why do I care? Number one, why do I care? And again, it's that internal rhetoric. Okay. I care because people might say nasty things, you know, you might get horrible comments. Like, people might not want to follow me because I'm too ugly. Like all the things that go through your, goes through your mind. does.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (15:34)

You were thinking,

Can you believe I kind of had that as well? And I had a background talking to community groups, but that's so different because you have that moment in person, and then it's done. No one can relive that unless someone was filming it, but normally they're not. And it's kind of like how you are behind a desk, actually worked in marketing as well. So I get that feeling where you're just, you're behind the scenes, but even

Mel White Parent Coach (16:01)

and bring away.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (16:03)

If you're not creating something that can be relived, then there's a bit of a freedom in that. And so there's that feeling of we are expected to be on video now. So you had that feeling that I had as well. totally relate to that, especially doing the podcast. These are all on video, but hearing those thoughts that you had about yourself, I am stunned because you look amazing. You look so professional, but.

Mel White Parent Coach (16:22)

Mm-hmm.

you

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (16:33)

And my internal dialogue is, God, I never liked my hair on these things or whatever it might be. And so you're saying we need to just free ourselves from all that.

Mel White Parent Coach (16:39)

No, it's always...

Yeah, free yourself from it. like, even though I could be remiss of me to say, ⁓ just let it go and don't think about it because we know that's not reality. And particularly with my background working with teens, I know that that's top of their mind. What people think of them, how they look like their friends, are their everything and their perception and all that stuff. But what I will say is what you're giving is more than what you look like.

and it's that famous like adage you know on your deathbed at your funeral are they gonna say oh she released really beautiful tiktoks no you know what they're gonna say she shared a really wonderful message and helped lots of people that's what they're gonna say they're not gonna say oh her hair looked on point like you know what i mean so it's like perspective yeah

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (17:38)

Yes, what's going to matter at the end of the year or life?

Mel White Parent Coach (17:43)

Mm-hmm, that's right. Yeah, and it's hard because in the moment you go, but people do care in the moment. But then, when you think back, like all the funerals I've gone to over the years, I've never said, 'Wow, they really like, they nailed the hair curlers.' Like, no, you're thinking about the things they did in their life and the memories and the places they went and the people they met and the things that they shared with the world. You're not thinking about, you know, did they look good in that photo? So, but yes, it's very hard and I understand that.

to put that big wide lens on, but I think that's where it comes to like just a bit of perspective sometimes.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (18:21)

Yes. And especially in that social media space, you're dealing with young people who are on social media, and I'm guessing are they sort of connecting with their friends through social media? And have you also found that your friends or people close to your age is sort of connecting with the people they know on social media. And there's a, there's a disconnect between what's online and the rest of reality.

Mel White Parent Coach (18:53)

100%. A good example, and she won't mind me sharing this, one of my best friends, lifelong friend, like known her since pre birth. She knew me while I was in the womb. ⁓ She recently had a baby, and ⁓ she has always been like this just glam, know, glamorous person, always got the makeup, the hair, everything, just like looks like high fashion. And ⁓ when she had a baby, she really had to take a step back and realised number one was important, what was the priority for the day, and that was to just keep the baby alive. ⁓ But also showing up on social media, she said to me, I feel like I can't show up because I haven't done my makeup, I haven't done my hair. And she goes, and all I want is to just post pictures of me in my bath, and you know, doing well and happy. And she's like, I feel like there's this thing, this wall stopping me going, no, but you've got to go and put your face on because that's what she was used to and that's what she's seeing, being served to her in terms of the content that she consumes and all these, you know, the mum talkers and all of that stuff that's out there. Yeah, have you not seen Mum talk? It's crazy. Secret lives of Mormon wives. It's a big thing. It's massive. So they're like, they're all the hair extensions, the plastic surgery that, you know, and they've got like, they've got, they're pregnant and they've got a baby on the boob. And it's like, that's not a...

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (20:00)

Mom took us?

Mom talk.

Okay.

Mel White Parent Coach (20:21)

a reality that the average person is going to be living. These are multimillionaires that have chefs and makeup artists on hand and all of this stuff. And they get ready for the cameras, and they do all of that. And she's seeing that content because she's a new mom, and the algorithm knows, and they're serving it to her, and she's showing me, and she's like, this is what I'm dealing with. How am I supposed to show up online? And then I have to show her the other side.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (20:48)

That's really interesting. I still believe in putting our best foot forward, but if we're thinking about what's the entire reality for the people we look up to, I don't, I wonder how many people wake up completely done up and made up.

Mel White Parent Coach (21:10)

⁓ zero.

There's no way, you know, it's that, have you ever seen Mad Men? Yeah, great, great show. If no one's watched it, go and watch it. It's that classic 1950s housewife where they wake up in the morning and they get out of bed quickly and they put their face on and they lay back in bed so that their husbands only see them with their full face on. And it's, it is, it's the patriarchy.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (21:16)

Yes.

Interesting. I, that's so fascinating because I seriously haven't put makeup on in a few years. And I, I think that that really stemmed because I was in Queensland for a while, where the weather was so sweaty that the makeup would just kind of drip so quickly. It wasn't worth it. But so I understand that for some women, want to acknowledge for some women, okay.

Mel White Parent Coach (21:57)

Mm-hmm.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (22:03)

It feels right. makes them feel good. And even if someone is into a surgery, whatever you're into, you do you right. But it's the pressure that we're all meant to look a particular way. And I think that that kind of standardisation is going on in all sorts of spaces because you came from corporate, I came from spaces where if you're a speaker, you're meant to all be in the same suit, but then that's not what it's like in a TED talk. It's not what it's like in communities.

Mel White Parent Coach (22:09)

Yeah, but I've heard you've got it.

Mm-hmm.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (22:33)

So part of this is just having the freedom to be ourselves.

Mel White Parent Coach (22:39)

Yeah. Yeah. And that's what we want. That's what I want to share with the next generation coming through is that even though they are bombarded with all of this and also parents, like even my parents, ⁓ my mom in particular, you know, they are influenced, they were influenced by the Hello Magazine and you know, Women's Weekly and that kind of thing, right, which was the social media of their time. And I don't actually think there's that big of a difference between

Mel White Parent Coach (23:09)

that are now about volume.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (23:11)

Well, previously, it was, of course, a mass message to anyone who saw a cover of a magazine in a shopping centre. And now we're seeing whatever comes into our social media feeds, but it's, it's very similar because you're a bit younger than me, just a little bit, but I like to feel young at heart. But I grew up in the days when Britney Spears was starting off and wearing a crop top, and that was amazing. I'm so glad she was having fun in that moment in time, but I knew that I wasn't going to look like that. And now we have a different version of social media. There was a phase when everybody wanted to look like the Kardashians, and we keep having something else that women still look like.

Mel White Parent Coach (23:42)

Thank you.

Yes.

Yes,

Yes, that's exactly right. And, and I think it is this, you know, perception versus reality, of course, but also what's really hard is when the lines get blurred, because as I said, before, when you see something consistently, it's like that, ⁓ the example would be okay, a cult, social media is a cult, right? Because you are essentially being served a message, consistently, if someone tells you that the sky is green for long enough, you're going to start to believe it. Yeah. Yeah. And with teens, they're just these giant sponges of trying to create their own values, neural pathways and decisions and choices in life. And all of these messages, some are going to stick, some are going to flow through, and that's so fine.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (24:36)

Can you believe it? It's the consistency over time. ⁓

Mel White Parent Coach (24:58)

But some are gonna stick, and it's the ones that stick that worry me. ⁓ But there's good out there too, and I think that's where it's like, know, there is really good stuff and like the stuff that you you share or that I share or anyone else that's in like a community of people that have a good message to share. It's like we want to over overlord the negativity, but it is hard.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (25:23)

It is hard. And I wanted to really acknowledge that it's okay to want to look glamorous. It's okay to do all those things. But if I think what we're dealing with here is when we end up expecting that everyday reality to look like the filtered version and look the version of it that I have been contributing, just because I have no choice, is that people will see what I put on social media, and it's not all airbrushed. Sure. We also select what goes online and people see. This looks great. This looks like it's doing well, but they really don't see the other things that are going on behind the scenes. And I don't know if you had that experience where people are saying, ⁓ you're doing great things online. Your life is amazing. And people decide your life is going great.

Mel White Parent Coach (26:18)

Yeah.

And or the other side, where, you know, I might show up and I'm literally in gym gear and I look a bit dishevelled and I'll get people going, you look a bit tired, babe. So you're okay. You know, or like, you know, are you doing okay? Like, you look like you're working, don't work too hard. So it can go both ways. It's like you show up authentically as probably how you look on a normal day, and people get worried about you. And it's like, well, actually, I'd love to show up more in that way. So people realise that's my normal face. ⁓

And number two, it's like, why do we feel entitled to comment about other people's appearances and those kinds of things? Just be like, ⁓ love what you shared today in that message or don't say anything at all. That's okay too. But yeah, I do think that we are in a society where we feel very entitled to share our thoughts and opinions on other people.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (27:11)

That's so interesting. And I love how this chat more than some others, it has just gone anywhere. And I love that the whole look, the online opinions thing, I can say even I had some phases of getting so anxious about even who is seeing what I'm putting online, and I have to step back and decide. So what, but the opinions, it sounds like you have had some people getting a bit extra concerned.

Mel White Parent Coach (27:18)

Yeah.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (27:42)

But even, even I think that people have an opinion about whether you support something or not. I don't think I've copped that so much since in the pandemic, everybody had a view and opinion. You know, there was just a day, there was a time in the pandemic when either you were getting absorbed in the us and them of it, or

Mel White Parent Coach (27:53)

Mmm.

Mm-hmm.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (28:09)

You were either supporting everything or you are asking questions. And we're so lucky here in Australia, because I know that in other countries at the moment, people are trying to even decide are they going to just get divided or are they going to have open conversations about things. So I think that we have been really lucky in Australia that I think that people have been a bit chilled out to some extent.

Mel White Parent Coach (28:27)

Yeah.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (28:38)

about getting too opinionated. And I'm wondering, I'm wondering whether with the young people that you're seeing, is there a sense of unity to some extent that there would be, there would be a lot of, there would be, what is it, diversity? That's the word, sorry. I mean, some of them are neurodivergent. Some of them might be, look, I'm a vegan. Some people you're working with might be, oh, you're a vegan. Okay.

Mel White Parent Coach (28:55)

Hmm. Yeah.

Yep.

Hey!

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (29:07)

Okay, that's a whole thing in itself. Okay, have you had people reacting to that over the years? When did you turn vegan?

Mel White Parent Coach (29:09)

I know.

Yeah, 10 years ago. Yes, very much so. I started off, if we want to go down that rabbit hole, but I did start off like sharing a lot about that life journey. And honestly, now I don't really tell anyone unless they ask me explicitly, you know, like it's just, it's my own thing. And the only people that really know about it is if I go to a restaurant and I say, I can't have dairy, can't have meat, can't have eggs. And then they kind of figure it out.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (29:21)

Yeah, sure.

Why?

Mel White Parent Coach (29:43)

You start listing all the things you can't eat. But ⁓ honestly, that's where I kind of, particularly with young people, you know, people like they will say to me, you know, about they'll start talking about animal rights, or they'll start talking about being vegetarian or vegan or something. And I'll share like some anecdotes or my experience and they'll, and then it gets them interested, and then they share their opinions on it. And I try very, it's funny you say this, because I try very carefully to not push agendas on people about veganism because for me, for me, it is an ethical thing, but I never want to be that person that's like, well, you eat meat, you're a bad person. But that's like a choice I made. So yeah, it's an interesting one for sure. Cause I do think I'm a little bit like passive in that way. I'm like, I've chosen this life. I don't expect anybody else to choose it. I recommend it, but you know, I'm never going to like publicly be like, be a vegan.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (30:14)

Yes.

Yeah.

Yeah.

That's so interesting because I think now I'm realising that Aussies do have some things that can be divisive, but in a really subtle way, because with the vegan thing, you and I probably had a similar angle there, where for a while, when I started, it was all vegan, everything used the word a lot. I was putting my food on social media to be fair. It was.

Mel White Parent Coach (30:50)

Mm-hmm.

Yes.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (31:06)

Just before the pandemic and during it, there's not much else to do but share the latest bunch of beans. Sure. Yes. Well, we eat more than salad, but whatever it might be, pasta sauce or whatever, it was just all food. But it was so interesting. I didn't want it to be boxed in by it. And it's so funny now that people aren't that

Mel White Parent Coach (31:12)

Mm-hmm.

Salads.

Yeah.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (31:34)

Generally, I'll meet up with some people and they don't know, and then I'll just say, so I'll sit down and ask, okay, what on the menu is vegan? ⁓ You're vegan. They don't make a big deal about it, but I totally agree with you. If we were, and this is the thing that I wish everybody in the world would learn. We could have been holding a sign saying everybody needs to be vegan, and that would be nice. Look, personally, if everybody wanted to not eat meat, I wouldn't complain.

But do I expect them to? No, because that's not what people are going to do. But I think that same thing could be applied right now. People are having opinions about every aspect of life; we can't. People do what they're going to do. Do you agree?

Mel White Parent Coach (32:06)

Yeah.

you

Yeah, it's not, it's not in our circle of control, right? So it did take me a while because at the start, like my husband, he's a meat-eater. And so I still cook meat every day. ⁓ but it took me a while to get like kind of off my high horse a little bit and also look at my circle of control and go, I can control my impact on the planet, my impact on animals, my what I eat, what I choose to consume. I can't control what the person next door does, what even my husband does. ⁓ but yes, it's

It's about what you can do and what's in your control, essentially. And I do share that a lot with young people because they do get caught up in the justice sensitivity complex.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (33:03)

What's that about?

Mel White Parent Coach (33:04)

So that's a big thing in the neurodivergent world. So I myself have ADHD, and it's a massive thing with ADHD is that we get kind of hyper fixated on this concept of justice in the world, in life and particularly young people with the planet, which is one of their biggest causes of stress.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (33:27)

Okay, now we're talking.

Mel White Parent Coach (33:28)

Yeah, now we're talking. That was voted the number one cause of stress in young people, and anxiety is the planet and the way the planet is going. And so they're in this like realm of at the moment when I have conversations with young people, they're very much like, it's not fair. All the old people voting for this and voting for that. And they're just going to kill our planet, and they're going to die next week. And so, you know, it's, mean, when you think about it from their perspective, it's a fair enough feeling, but ⁓

Mel White Parent Coach (33:58)

holding on to that kind of justice sensitivity is not good for you, number one. It's stressful, and it's outside of your control. Yeah.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (34:03)

I love that so much. hadn't heard that label for it, but you're reminding me that it's interesting because I'm actually going to be supporting an educational event with an environmental group tomorrow. So your timing is amazing and. ⁓ come along. I'll send you stuff later. I am a little bit further up north than you, but you're not that far away, but anyhow, we do all deep down actually have these concerns. It's so interesting because.

Mel White Parent Coach (34:22)

Use that. Yeah, cool.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (34:35)

Let's just say it. think that I did watch a particular monologue that's overseas. did see that this week, but we have our own stuff over here, where, I mean, let me know if you agree. I felt like it was just a few more floods than normal last winter, whatever was going on. You know, and I don't really care which scientist is right. The bottom line was that roads were closed, and I felt nervous to go outside. I don't really care what needs to be proven. But what I care about is, okay, how am I going to get through that day? And it's great that we're past that. But how many times have the Aussies been feeling really nervous about whether there will be fires again in the summer? I think that there is an anxiety around those things. And then being neurodivergent, I think we're living in a great era for things like that, because

I don't know if you saw a lot of inclusion around that or a lot of acceptance. think that when I first discovered those labels and I didn't hear the phrase or the word neurodivergent early on, but other labels, I think that there was, there was a serious stigma, and I think it was actually, there was outright bullying around those sorts of things. So I think that stuff has evolved, but we are still feeling sensitive about, okay,

Mel White Parent Coach (35:34)

Hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (35:58)

Can we be honest about what we eat? Will people care, or can we be open about being on a spectrum, and how can we share our anxiety about the environment around us without getting too wrapped up in the anxiety? Have you seen that just with people around you?

Mel White Parent Coach (36:07)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, a lot. As I said, particularly with young people, but also in the corporate world. You know, if we go back to that, one of the biggest examples I can share is, you know, finally get into a point where I felt confident enough to share with my workplace about having ADHD and the support needs that I may require, and basically getting bullied out of the company. ⁓ Because

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (36:44)

Do you mind if I ask what happened there?

Mel White Parent Coach (36:46)

Yeah, so essentially they just didn't understand it. There was a cultural barrier. ⁓ And it was essentially thought of as something that was more of a problem for me to fix, rather than to be accepted or, you know, in that sense or to feel included. Yeah, and it was like, you know, it was just a lot of misunderstanding, me feeling misunderstood.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (37:06)

Just.

Mel White Parent Coach (37:15)

them not understanding where I'm coming from, or the things I'm saying, or how I might be feeling, and then putting that blame back on me, being like, that's a you problem, need to sort that out. So yeah, it was a really interesting time. But now, because of that experience, and this is what I mean with the things that you do in your past that shape your future experiences, and same with parenting, is that now I don't disclose that unless absolutely necessary, you know, or I feel that's why I'm my own business, right? Because I don't have to deal with that anymore. But after I left that workplace, there was like a few other workplaces that I went to, and I purposefully chose not to share that.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (38:00)

Not to mention it. Yeah. That's, I talked with someone who who said, check the psychological safety of a space. And it was actually another Melanie, Melanie Smith. So the Melanies are just coming up with all the nuggets right now. Yes. So I think that you really experienced, it's just.

Mel White Parent Coach (38:18)

Mmm.

They're just coming out.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (38:29)

It sounds like that must have been relatively recent, though that that happened.

Mel White Parent Coach (38:32)

Yeah, yeah it was. It wasn't too long ago, probably just over a year ago, I say.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (38:38)

That concerns me so much because that sort of thing, I saw that going on very early in my working life. I think it was about, oh wait, oh nine, 2009. Mean, it's just so long ago, and people will tell me, this is actually interesting. People will tell me that things have evolved. People are more understanding. And I think that there's so much online, and there's so much in

Mel White Parent Coach (39:02)

Hmm

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (39:08)

The media about being inclusive. And we're sort of led to believe that the world is inclusive now. But then things like that will happen. And so you can't always assume that people are as understanding as you expect them to be.

Mel White Parent Coach (39:25)

Yeah, and coming full circle to that is this particular company prided themselves on diversity and inclusion. And you know, that company culture was everything and all this stuff, but again, it was how they wanted to be perceived online versus what was the reality behind closed doors.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (39:48)

My goodness. love when that metaphorical mic jobs and what's moving forward. think the empowering thing now, I think we need to look at the upside and all this because I just, I think that stuff is happening left, right. And centre and open intended. And at least you have created your own brand, your own business and pivoting from young people for a second. If you.

Mel White Parent Coach (39:52)

Mm-hmm.

Yes.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (40:18)

If you can guide people close to our age, who or anyone who has come out of a situation like that, like that where they may be realised they can't share their truth. I know some parents are told, 'Don't mention your family life because that's private and it has nothing to do with this, even though it affects what time you can show up in a day and all sorts of things.' So that all happens. think the question I have to you is when people realise in the space they are in, they can't share their reality, and they're ready to create their own space. Then what advice do you have to encourage that?

Mel White Parent Coach (41:03)

Yeah.

I think I'm going to come back to that original thing, which is again, it's a big learning and it takes time, and I don't expect people to just like get there overnight. But what other people think of you is none of your business. And that has taken me a long time. In fact, I'm not going to even say that I'm 100 % there. I'm about 80 % of the way. ⁓ It's a lifelong thing, I feel. But if you can just remember in those moments when someone is making you question your authenticity or whether you should share something about yourself, and you

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (41:23)

It's a journey.

Mel White Parent Coach (41:34)

⁓

feeling that sense of wanting to stop before you say, when moments you want to share, then just remember being who you are is your truth. And this is really funny, but I had like a very well known speaker in the motivational speaking world say to me in front of a crowd of like hundreds of people only last week that I was an acquired taste.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (42:06)

Ooh, I always called myself one of those. Okay. Scratching my face.

Mel White Parent Coach (42:08)

Yes, so he said, you're, yeah,

he was like, you're an acquired taste. And I just stood there and I said, thank you. I was like, thank you.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (42:20)

I'll tell you the really naughty line that I like to say for

that. I'm an acquired taste and I choose to believe that I'm yummy. You can't always say that. It's not too explicit, but I like using it occasionally.

Mel White Parent Coach (42:31)

I love that.

I love that. Well, I just said to him, thank you. I'm not here to please everybody. I have a purpose and a mission and you don't have to like me. That's fine. We don't have to be friends.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (42:46)

Guessing that you don't feel like it's the right time to say who it was.

Mel White Parent Coach (42:51)

⁓

Let's just say like he's around. He's very big. You would know him. ⁓ But yes, very well known motivational speaker. ⁓ But yes, he just said it and I just said, okay, thank you. And then I had a few people come up to me afterwards and say, that was a bit harsh. And I said, is it or is it just the truth? Yeah, is it just the truth? Like I don't expect everybody to like me. And if I did,

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (42:56)

Okay. Or a compliment.

Mel White Parent Coach (43:20)

That wouldn't be... I would be quite boring, I feel like.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (43:25)

Yeah. But with your honesty, I feel like you've been able to find your people because I just felt so reassured or at home when you said that you're a vegan as well. being open to say, you know, I don't even, honestly, I don't talk about the spectrum or neurodivergent things publicly much at all, because I just don't want to chime in to that conversation and I don't want to attract opinions.

So don't even go there. And I think it's amazing that you're honest about that. And we could bond over the vegan thing. And I think that you just find your people when you share the part of yourself that you can share.

Mel White Parent Coach (44:08)

Yes, 100%. And doesn't matter what age you are, you know, could be one, you could be a hundred. And if you do what you like and find your passion, purpose, even just a hobby, whatever it is, you lean in to that, you will find your people. Like that's science. There's no arguing with that. ⁓

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (44:22)

anything.

Okay.

Even find the chatty ones being on podcasts. We're all chatty enough to be doing this.

Mel White Parent Coach (44:37)

That's right. That's right. Find, you know, for or if you're a bookworm, go to a library. You know, you're going to you're going to find people in the crime fiction section that are also looking for a similar book. And then you'll get chatting about it. You know, there's just there's things as things for everyone. I think that's the message that I want to like share here is that loneliness is a pandemic as we know and there's things for everyone there's people for everyone and yeah sure you might be in a quiet taste I say that in meta commas you might be in a quiet taste but guess what I'm okay with that because I like myself and I'm my biggest fan first and I think that's important

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (45:07)

Really is. The loneliness is an epidemic or a pandemic or whatever it might be. Loneliness is a thing that we need to deal with. And it sounds like the self-care message, because I really like bringing this show back to the self-care goals. And I think that one thing you've really brought us to is to, to gather with people and be real enough when you're connecting with, you don't have to be a photoshopped version of yourself.

Mel White Parent Coach (45:52)

No, just be you. And also it's okay. And this is one thing I will say, particularly the neurodivergent community, because a lot of my community is, is that it's actually okay to find people that you can sit with and say nothing.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (46:04)

Okay, tell me more.

Mel White Parent Coach (46:05)

Good example, me and my husband, we're both very different ends of the spectrum. In terms of neurodiversity, I'm very like outgoing and like love to chat. He loves to be in silence. And so, you know, we will sit there, I'll have my headphones on, I'll listen to a podcast, he'll do his thing. And we're together in the space. And we're not lonely because we have company, but we're doing our own thing. And we feel comfortable enough with each other. And we know each other well enough to actually say nothing but be in the same space.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (46:37)

Know, I experienced that recently. I found that being I guess, so I don't identify as ADHD, but I have this sort of mind that's just going and going and going and going and going right. And I think that I experienced what you have seen, where when someone is the opposite, but in a happy, just content sort of way, then it can be sort of a relief.

Mel White Parent Coach (46:49)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (47:04)

I mean, I don't want it sound dependent, and I could ask you about this. It almost feels dependent, and you can correct this ⁓ quite helpfully. It feels dependent to realise that some calm people are a relief from our own minds. Does that make sense?

Mel White Parent Coach (47:09)

Hmm.

It's the yin and the yang complex. Yeah, 100%. Imagine if two yins got together, like that's just, it's nuts and it's not sustainable. And so you do need to have a balance of energies. And that's why, like my husband and I have been together for 14 years, not married for 14 years, but we've been together for 14 years. And

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (47:26)

and that's okay.

it's nuts.

Mel White Parent Coach (47:46)

It's one of those things where it's like it works because we don't match energies, we meet energies. ⁓ So yeah, I think that's important when you are finding your community or your people is it's all well and good to go out and party with a bunch of extroverts, but can you do that every single day? Probably not.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (48:06)

⁓ it's

full on, whether it's the partying. I've been in dynamics where someone is ultra chatty, and I find myself on the phone for a seriously not kidding five hours in a day. And you just, I think that you are really onto something. So maybe the chatty people need to find their mellow, contrasting person out there. I'm learning from you so much.

Mel White Parent Coach (48:17)

Whoa.

And

they appreciate, like when we're in a social setting, he hates talking to people, hates it. And he loves that I can just hold the conversation, and then he'll jump in with his quick little wits whenever he wants to. And that's, he is satisfied socially. You know, so it's like you find your people and you share that, the dynamic works because, and it's saying with friendship groups, doesn't matter how old you are, but.

In your friendship groups, you'll know there's the quiet one, there's the chatty one, there's the organized one, there's the OCD one. In a group of friends, it's dynamic. If you were all the same, I don't think it'd be a very good friendship group. It'd be quite like either really intense or really boring.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (49:15)

Yes, that's actually a great lesson for young people who are finding their friends and for people close to our age as well. I'm in a small little community group at the moment where there's one person who doesn't feel so chatty, but will quietly just bring people in one by one. And then I'm happy to just talk and talk. And I think that what you're saying is

Mel White Parent Coach (49:24)

Hmm.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (49:42)

We can all be the different arms and legs and ears and whatnot of the space we are in. And we're all serving a different purpose.

Mel White Parent Coach (49:53)

Yes, 100%. And that's the other thing. We're all serving different purpose, but we all have a purpose. And I think sometimes people feel like that when they are in a space, maybe there's a lot of dominating personalities or whatever. And maybe they are the quieter one. This happens a lot with young people is they feel like, oh, well, I'm not important, or I'm I don't have a purpose here, because I don't have a loud enough voice, or I'm not the one who's chosen when I put my hand up or

whatever that looks like happens in corporate too, right? And I think it's like, actually, do you have a purpose? Because maybe you're the listener, you're the innovator, you're actually taking in everything that's happening and absorbing it. And then a couple of days later, you might come up with something absolutely genius. Everybody has a purpose.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (50:40)

Everybody does have a purpose that that is so important for everybody to know. And actually, again, I'm not a therapist, but I think that if anyone is really struggling with their place in the world, just reminding ourselves that we do have a purpose in being different. think this can be really reassuring because we've both gone through experiences of wondering where we fit and realising we fit some spaces more than others. So that's actually reassuring whether someone is very young and is just in the bubble of school or whether someone is in a corporate bubble or something like that. It's reassuring to know there will be other spaces and sometimes you're a place where you are going to grow so much could be. It doesn't mean that you're wrong and need fixing. It means that there are so many spaces in the world.

Mel White Parent Coach (51:39)

Yeah. No, and you can spend the time to discover that. And the last thing I want to say on all of this is that it's okay to change your mind because that's one thing that I will say about me is I've had over 50 jobs in my life. And whether they be in marketing, when I first got out of school, I was a personal trainer. was, you know, studied nutrition. Did it, did that for a while.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (51:39)

We don't have to be everywhere.

Ooh, good.

My gosh, it's all coming out.

Mel White Parent Coach (52:07)

I've done so many different things, but I think what a lot of people are afraid of is changing their mind. And we are fed this rhetoric. You go to school, you pick your subjects that are going to align with whatever you want to do after school. And then you go and do that thing, and you study more for it. Then you go and get into that job and you stay there, and you die. Like that is, that is what we're taught. That is what we're taught. It's that, you know, when you're in kindergarten, what do want to be when you grow up?

I wanna be a doctor. Great, I wanna be a fireman. Great. ⁓ You know what I wanted to be? I was actually looking back at my kindergarten ⁓ portfolio, because I moved house and mom gave me all my stuff. And I wrote in there, I wanted to be ⁓ a primary school teacher ⁓ or a world-famous author.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (53:00)

Okay, there's still time.

Mel White Parent Coach (53:02)

Hey, I'm writing a book right now. So it's like, there is still time, but also I haven't done any of those things. I've done a lot of other things, but it's okay to change your mind because I feel like, particularly adults, were quite bad at when someone does change their mind in judging them or saying, 'That's quite a risk.' Are you going to be okay? Or, you know, yeah, like that. ⁓ are you sure you've got such a good job in this?

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (53:12)

Yes.

for sure. ⁓

Mel White Parent Coach (53:29)

corporate job, like why would you leave that? You're on really good money. I just think there's a, there's this, the fear of change really can change your whole life, but also stop you from finding or changing your mind or doing those different things we're just talking about.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (53:47)

I would give the yes and to say we can try something new when we are doing the thing that's supporting us. Right.

Mel White Parent Coach (53:54)

Yes,

Yes, why, yeah, 100%. Although I'm very much an all-or-nothing person, but I agree with you.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (54:00)

Yeah, but you're you're looking at so you've started writing sorry you've started writing a book.

Mel White Parent Coach (54:06)

Yes, yes, about my parenting method, which is the curious parenting method. So it's my methodology that I created, it's trademarked, all of that fun stuff. It's what I use to help the parents ⁓ and yeah, I started writing a a couple weeks ago ⁓ and it's going good.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (54:22)

Just a couple of weeks ago, you started writing it. That's a big deal. And that shows you're still doing your main coaching and you're starting to write a book. It's, it's okay to try a few different things.

Mel White Parent Coach (54:33)

Yeah, well, if we're talking about that, I'm throwing every piece of spaghetti at the wall and seeing what sticks, which I love. Yes, so in that sense, yes, but if we think about purpose, it's all still a lining. You know, so I think that's that's important. But yeah, don't be afraid of change. think is yeah, kids, kids in particular, so scared of changing their mind for fear of what if.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (54:47)

for sure, yes.

Yes. Fear of what if, and the, and when we've put so much into something, then we don't want it to then shift. But so much of what you're saying is that your purpose can shift. You can become focused on something else. Look, I feel like we could talk all day.

Mel White Parent Coach (55:18)

I know

I'm thinking the same thing. We could just, yeah, talk for three years and then.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (55:23)

Yes.

I normally aim for these to be around an hour, but look, I think we need to really sum up if you'd like to share three focused things. Love having three of something. If you have three things that people can prioritise in just reassuring themselves and their their next step.

Mel White Parent Coach (55:39)

Yeah.

I love this because I also love threes. ⁓ I have three core pillars, and I think you can apply it to everything. So I'm going to share them. So the first one is curiosity, obviously, get curious, ask questions, never be afraid of asking questions. ⁓ Creativity, get creative with problem-solving solutions and innovation because those three things are going to just elevate everything else, right?

And then action. It's all well and good to get curious and ask questions, and be creative about it. But if you don't follow through, it's all a waste. So do the thing. Start the blog, write the book, you know, start the podcast, do the thing. Even if it doesn't like end up the way you wanted it, get curious again and just cycle back. Get curious, get creative, do it. Start again. Keep going back. Like it's the cycle. Yeah, that's it.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (56:46)

Be curious. Look,

Melanie White, thank you so much for talking and sharing all your insights.

Mel White Parent Coach (56:49)

Thank

Thank you, this has been so fun!

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (56:56)

anytime.

Mel White Parent Coach (56:58)

So good, yes, and I can't believe we actually don't live far from each other. That's so awesome.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (57:03)

It is awesome. Okay.

Show Notes Keywords

trauma, healing, spirituality, self-trust, storytelling, mental health, survivors, empowerment, personal growth, coaching

Summary

In this conversation, Sara Banyan shares her profound journey of overcoming trauma and the impact it has had on her life. From her early struggles with depression and confusion to discovering the roots of her pain in childhood trauma, Sara emphasises the importance of understanding and addressing trauma. She discusses the role of spirituality in her healing process, the significance of self-trust, and the challenges of sharing her truth with others. Through her experiences, she highlights the power of storytelling and the creation of her film, aimed at empowering survivors and fostering a movement of belief and support.

Takeaways

Sara's journey began with a struggle against depression and confusion.

Trauma can manifest in various ways, affecting mental, emotional, and physical health.

Spirituality played a crucial role in Sara's healing process.

Learning to trust oneself is essential for recovery from trauma.

People-pleasing behaviours often stem from past trauma and insecurity.

It's important to find safe spaces to share one's story.

Survivors should focus on their own healing beyond trying to help others.

The impact of trauma can create invisible scars that affect daily life.

Storytelling can be a powerful tool for healing and empowerment.

Creating a supportive community is vital for survivors.

Sound bites

"I struggled to want to live."

"You can't rush your healing."

"I believe you."

Chapters

00:00 Introduction to Sara Banyan's Journey

01:55 Unpacking Trauma and Its Effects

07:51 The Role of Spirituality in Healing

11:49 Learning to Trust Oneself

16:51 Navigating the World of Acting and Public Perception

22:39 Embracing Individuality and Authenticity

24:12 Embracing Individuality in Healing

25:52 Navigating Political Distractions and Social Media

27:36 The Importance of Self-Care and Healing

31:23 Listening and Believing Survivors

33:21 Finding the Right Support for Trauma

36:59 The Journey to Enlightenment

38:35 Overcoming Imposter Syndrome

41:47 Sharing Your Truth and Empowerment

44:02 Creating Change Through Storytelling

Sarah Banyan Transcript

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (00:00)

Welcome, Sarah Banyan, to the podcast. It is an honour to have you here and, and you have quite a story. So let's dive right in, and I'm ready to hear what's your story.

Sara Banyan (00:18)

Woo, thank you, Melanie, it's so nice to meet you. ⁓ So my story is like everyone, we all have incredible stories of how we've gotten here, so I'm gonna try and keep mine very brief. ⁓ I grew up in a small town in Northern California, I became an actress, I worked in film and TV, and ⁓ I started developing a coaching system. And started working with a ton of actors, athletes, hosts, and entertainers. At the same time, while I was succeeding, it was like the duck underwater, you know, just constantly paddling, paddling, paddling, and feeling like I was just swimming to stay afloat because of my own struggle with depression, with confusion, with physical, emotional, psychological, and sexual issues that were arising from something that I couldn't figure out. And being a child of two shrinks, I did have access to some incredible psychiatric care, but no one was. I got a lot of people diagnosing me, but a lot of different things happening; I was consistent. No one could figure it out. And I just knew that most, that I had a lot of highs, but

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (01:36)

No one could figure that.

Sara Banyan (01:45)

I also struggled to want to like be here a lot of the time. And it wasn't that I wanted to kill myself, it's that I was struggling to want to live. And I couldn't understand a well of pain inside of me. And in my early 40s, I was seeing a psychiatrist in Los Angeles for over a year and a half. And he finally said, I think what we're dealing with is trauma. And he said specifically pre-verbal. And that… then he referred me to a colleague of his who specialised in extreme trauma. And I was like, 'What is going on?' Back then, this was nine, 10 years ago, people weren't really talking about trauma the way we talk about it now. And so I would have done anything. I would have seen anyone. I saw a lot of different people. I saw Shaman. I saw Jungian Dream Analysis. I saw...

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (02:29)

True.

Sara Banyan (02:42)

Therapists, mental health professionals, psychiatrists, psychologists, ⁓ everything. And Will, the man who I met, Will Randall, is the one who changed my life. And his therapy and the way that he worked with me in a very non-traditional way immediately changed everything. And that's when I started having flashbacks. And it was basically revealed that, you know, I had...

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (02:46)

Everything.

Sara Banyan (03:10)

Two people had done terrible things to me when I was a child.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (03:12)

Were you just remembering it then? Did you not even remember things before?

Sara Banyan (03:17)

I would have flashbacks, but I didn't know what they were.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (03:25)

You didn't know that it was a memory?

Sara Banyan (03:27)

I did not know it was a memory. I disassociated so intensely to survive the abuse that I was so fragmented early on, and then I just started fragmenting more and more, and traditional psychotherapy only fragmented me more because I would have to act in order to survive. Like I couldn't, if I accessed the pain that I felt, was scary. People, it was too scary. My mother was terrified by it.

Because I would go into screaming rages and scratch and pull my hair out, and it was it was really rough

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (04:03)

How old were you when you were scratching and screaming?

Sara Banyan (04:07)

It was around nine that my system started exploding. So up until the time from me being a toddler to nine years old, my system was like trying to handle the abuse in the best way that it could, but it kept kind of glitching and kept, I kept trying to fit in, kept trying to be okay, kept trying to act how my parents wanted me to act. But inside, something was not okay. It was not right. And finally, at nine, my system just overloaded, and I went to school and ate some poison.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (04:43)

some poison.

Sara Banyan (04:44)

A poison plant, yes. ⁓ But it was seen as an attempt that I wasn't really serious about trying to kill myself. I don't know if I'm allowed to say this here. ⁓

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (04:47)

What happened there?

You'll say anything. And that's actually the good thing about this long conversation. I think that so many things don't get said, and people don't get the chance to just unpack things or piece the puzzle together, whichever way you want to put it. let's go for it.

Sara Banyan (05:00)

Is that.

Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. So I ate a poison plant, much like what Socrates was given. You know, I was a dramatic kid, but I was also trying to cope and trying to survive. And the abuse wasn't picked up on ⁓ nor would it be. Why would anyone think that something so horrific and vile could be happening to a child? But this is happening to children all over the world. It is an epidemic.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (05:42)

Do you, and we don't have to delve more deeply than you want to, but do you know approximately what age you were, and do you know, was it a friend? Was it at a daycare? Do you remember how this even happened?

Sara Banyan (05:59)

Yeah, it's still muddy because my mom will not, she's still foggy. She had three of us within a year and a half of each other. Yeah. And she was young and alone, and like being a mom is like one of the hardest jobs on the planet, I think. So having three kids under the age of four is like, what the heck? know? ⁓ So.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (06:10)

Whoa!

Sara Banyan (06:28)

What she thinks is that she took me to a neighbour's house ⁓ and that they were taking care of me, and my mom was late to come pick me up, and they had to leave. So they took me to another neighbour's house. That's the memory that I first surfaced was of what I remembered was a castle, and I could see the stone walls. And so I asked my mom if she had ever picked me up from a castle.

And she knew exactly where I was, she knew exactly who it was and the name of the people and that the fact that she did pick me up when I was a baby, and I was inconsolable. ⁓ And so I have flash, I've had the flashbacks of what physically happened, which I won't get into because that could be way too triggering for your listeners. ⁓ But I think it is important to share our stories. I think it is important to be honest about what happened. But from that castle memory and then my mom knowing, we sort of started putting pieces together. And what transpired is it was before I had words to talk. So I wasn't able to say something bad happened.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (07:33)

So.

Yeah, it's when you couldn't talk. And so then a feeling was emerging years later, but it sounds like by that point, he couldn't really articulate what was going on.

Sara Banyan (07:59)

I had no idea. I just knew that something was wrong with me. I knew that I was different. I knew that I would go days, weeks without talking unless I had to. I was painfully shy. I wet my bed. I sucked my thumb. I would secretly eat. I was constantly trying now, in hindsight, to self-soothe. ⁓ What happened was, in the abuse, I was completely detached from my true self.

And in my mom not being able to pick up on the abuse, she was never able to attach. She was never able to bond. She was never able to soothe me. So I spent most of my life with the repercussions of what this type of abuse can do, which causes hypersexuality way too young, way too young. It messes with ⁓ your spirituality because

For me, I didn't trust that I was safe. I didn't trust that anyone could hear me. ⁓ It messed with me physically because you can't see these scars. I call them the invisible scars of sexual trauma. You can't see them. And so it's really hard for people to sort of understand that this abuse and the ramifications of this abuse are affecting us in every single.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (09:26)

in every way.

Sara Banyan (09:28)

Yeah. Physically, emotionally, spiritually, psychologically, sexually.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (09:33)

There's so much to go into here. And I think that it's worth sort of exploring some of these angles before then looking at how you communicate with everybody else, because I think that's important as well.

It affected you physically and spiritually. Let's delve into the spiritual side for a second. Was it that you couldn't trust the world?

Sara Banyan (09:59)

Yeah. If God existed, how could he allow something so heinous and evil to happen? I was not safe. My world was upside down. And so while I wanted to talk to God, my parents weren't very religious. I was raised celebrating Christmas, but then told we were Jewish. So we started celebrating Hanukkah, but church and God wasn't a part of my growing up. I just developed my own relationship with God.

As I begin healing, what I realised is it's really hard to have faith when your trust has been broken. And so I had to find ways as an adult to start putting in systems so that I could feel safe, and then putting in spiritual practice in a way that felt good for me so that I could learn to re-trust and have direct conversations with spirit.

God, universe, Buddha, Jesus, whatever it is that you want to call it. ⁓ Yeah, go ahead.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (11:07)

And that's probably really important for everybody, including people who went through something significant, because I heard from the 12-step world that I'm not a part of that they aim to just believe in something greater than themselves. And I love the simplicity of that because then whatever you trust in, it's giving you something bigger than you, because we can feel really powerless. So, when you considered spirituality, did it help you to feel a bit less powerless?

Sara Banyan (11:42)

It feels powerful and full. ⁓ When I speak with God, which is daily, constantly, all the time, ⁓ I feel love inside. I feel radiance. I feel light. I feel less alone. ⁓ And it's not that I go...

It's developing trust and faith in a way that I think trauma can really mess with when you've dealt with it as a child or young adult or adult, a teenager or adult. At any age, when something heinous or horrible happens, our faith and trust is broken. And how we choose to repair and heal that, I think, can be very personal but most worthwhile.

The way forward with healing has to be with great spiritual practice.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (12:47)

How did you teach yourself to trust people?

Sara Banyan (12:53)

By starting to learn how to trust myself. Which meant I had to interrupt the cycle of me getting people to like me or paying people to like me or surrounding myself with people, but always giving more than they gave because I was so insecure. I didn't trust myself or trust that people would actually like me. And so I had to turn what I wanted, trust with other people and start by learning to trust myself. And that I've spent the past couple of years really working on.

Very quietly, spent some holidays alone. And when you learn to face yourself and love yourself and give yourself what it is that you want in your life, things really start to shift and change.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (13:47)

You learned to trust yourself.

I'm curious, and I'm sort of handling this one so delicately, but I think that there are so many versions of trauma that can lead people in a similar direction. And so I'm really keen to ask learning to trust yourself. How did you at what point did you realise that you didn't trust yourself, and how did it help you professionally and personally, and well to change that, and how did you get back to trusting yourself?

Sara Banyan (14:30)

Well, I never trusted myself, so it wasn't getting back to anywhere. I was taught not to trust ourselves, myself. I think a lot of us are. I think a lot of us are taught to come from a place of fear, doubt, and insecurity. We're not raised to be warriors, especially as women.

Because my abuse rendered me helpless, because no one saved me, I kept wanting someone to save me. So in my head, I thought everyone knew better than me. Even though I'm a trailblazer, I'm a disruptor, like I have created methods that have changed people's lives in a very short amount of time, I still thought that I didn't know as I didn't know as well as other people would. So I hired someone to maybe run my company, and I thought that person should know way better than me. And the truth is, no, I can figure it out and that no one is gonna care more about you than you care about yourself. So I had to start learning how to care for myself, and that meant learning how to trust myself, learning how to not overdrink, not overspend.

To live within a budget, to learn how to trust my inner voice saying, 'No, I'd like to go to bed now', or 'No, I do want some ice cream', or it's tuning into a voice of truth that's saying, here's what works for me, versus doing it for someone else. That was a very convoluted answer, but.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (16:14)

No, it said so much. And yeah, it really

Sara Banyan (16:17)

Really?

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (16:20)

And I'm able to just piece things together in a way that can help anyone, just based on what you're saying. This is great. ⁓ You mentioned the overspending. How was that tied in?

Sara Banyan (16:30)

Yeah.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (16:32)

With everything else.

Sara Banyan (16:34)

The idea that something outside of you can make it better.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (16:40)

Was it fine?

Sara Banyan (16:40)

The idea that something outside of ourselves can make us feel better.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (16:47)

⁓ My goodness.

Sara Banyan (16:49)

Right?

And that's not true. It's not. Matter of fact, the more stuff we buy, I believe, the worse we feel.

It doesn't feel good. Stuff doesn't feel good for us energetically. So I was in an unhappy relationship, and I kept buying things for like another pair of pyjamas, another pair of shoes, another product for my hair. Constantly spending money to get a dopamine hit, to open a package or to think, aha, this is gonna fix it. This is gonna make it better.

When now, instead of buying something, I'm very conscious about where I buy it. I'm very conscious about where I spend. And I catch myself and go, 'Is this something I really need?' And if so, is it filling a void that I need to like, need to talk to and self-soothe instead of purchasing?

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (17:54)

Yes. Are you trying to fill a gap by buying things when they're not going to fill the gap?

Sara Banyan (18:03)

Right, right, exactly. Am I trying to numb, medicate, or placate? Am I trying to make myself feel better? ⁓ Especially when we go to social media and we're inundated with ads for all these things that you think you need, all these products, all these courses. And the truth is, it's all just stimuli that's clouding and confusing our true, authentic selves and our relationship with Spirit, Source, and God.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (18:32)

And you mentioned people pleasing. I'm just going to go in every direction because we did, and this is perfect. You mentioned people pleasing, and you also worked in acting. So I'm so curious about that because I can get inspired by you a bit. I came from a public speaking background, ⁓ but you did acting, and I'm wondering, was there a sense of perhaps enjoying the attention or enjoying just being a part of something? I'm wondering what sort of acting really resonated with you, and were there some scars appearing as you were doing that work?

Sara Banyan (19:18)

No, I just learned how to act better. I mean, that was like the training, right? Is you're supposed to go into the scars and, but I didn't, I just became a better actor. And I was a very good actor. I did a lot of film and a lot of TV. I don't talk about that part anymore, but like, cause I say that there's a place called hell and then underneath it is the place called Hollywood.

And people think I'm joking, but the truth is it's a really intense and crazy industry that really pulls and draws a lot of really damaged people. So yes, I wanted the attention, but I also didn't. I was never really comfortable walking red carpets, the pressure on how I looked, my body, my weight. I, at heart, I think I'm an introvert. At this point, I've...

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (19:42)

My goodness.

Sara Banyan (20:09)

decided that my life is meant to be public until it's not, but like, I didn't necessarily believe in the product I was selling. Now, with the film that I have that'll come out next year, I believe you, I'll walk every carpet I need to. I'll stand on any street corner. I will be outside any theatre. I will be at as many showings as I can to support survivors in this movement. And I believe in it, so I will stand up for it. Yes.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (20:36)

It can feel more meaningful when you're doing work that actually has a message that you believe in.

Sara Banyan (20:43)

Here's the thing. I have a letter from ⁓ a soldier who worked, a guy in the Navy who was in a submarine. And when I was on TV, he had written to me to ask if I would send an autographed picture so that they could hang it in their galley, which they could only; they were only allotted a little bit of space, and it was such an honour. There were so many times that as an actor, I was able to affect someone's life or send an autograph. I never charged for that.

But what I'm doing now, and it feels purpose-driven, is taking the trauma that I live through and knowing that everything that I found that helped me, I'm now turning it around and passing that on to other survivors, knowing it will help them. And that is something that I... You just can't... There's nothing like that feeling in the world.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (21:38)

There really is. And I can really sense that you are focused on what message you're giving to people. You mentioned that you didn't like all the focus on your appearance on the red carpet. And I think that a lot of people can relate to that in this day and age of social media. And even there's an expectation to look a particular way, even being social in real life. So

It's worth checking on that for a second, because I feel like something really clicked when you said that I loved the creativity of various forms of expression. And yet there are moments, especially when we're younger, I think it's more so at a younger age, but there's all this talk about how something will look or how someone will look. And so

I'm wondering what was that like for you, and what can you say to people who are maybe wanting to have a personal brand without drowning in the expectations of appearances?

Sara Banyan (22:47)

Yeah, you know, we all know we live in a visual medium, but I think what's surpassed that is individuality, uniqueness, and being brave enough to be yourself in this world.

People are always gonna be drawn to a certain type of beauty. I mean, that's just how we are. And I think as we start to respect people as they get older, versus thinking getting older is a death threat, it's not. Getting older is the best. It is awesome. But as we see, especially women, like I'm 55 and I have never, I know, right? It's like, I've never felt better. I'm more in my body. I have an aching pain, but I figured it out. I am medication-free. I love my life. I feel grateful every single day.

Totally lost the point of the question. I have to circle it back. I was going on a tangent. Going to the pressure of how we look, I want people to stay away from beating yourselves up. If something doesn't feel good in your body, I want you to pay attention, and I want you to take steps to figure out how to feel better in your body. What does that look like? Does it mean more water?

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (23:51)

Tensions are fine.

Sara Banyan (24:14)

Does it mean more steps? You know, the whole like, I need to count my steps. No, tune in, get rid of the technology. You know, I mean, not get rid of it. I'm not like, get rid of it all, but like, tune in. Yeah, step back, stop letting something outside of you tell you what you need. Find what you want to say and how you want to say it, and then don't be afraid to put it out there.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (24:26)

Step back from it.

Sara Banyan (24:42)

And don't be afraid if no one comments, or don't be afraid if two people comment or three people say negative things. And you're like, okay, I don't want to take this down. There's no right way to do things. There's just discovering your own way of how you want to do things. And that's trial and error. Give yourselves grace a lot.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (25:05)

Give yourself some grace and free yourself from the expectation of the numbers and the comments, and the opinions that translate to so many things. So part of our freedom is just letting go of our dependence on others. That's so crucial in what I've been following lately, especially in some particular industries.

I saw people getting very political. And I know there's a lot going on in America, but this is bigger than that. I, around here in various wellness sectors, I saw it being ultra, ultra political. And that just concerns me so much because it should be all about everybody being okay. And I think,

The thing that you said about social media that can translate into any community, any space. I've seen churches getting divided. No matter where you are, people get divided. And it sounds like part of what you're saying in recovering from the trauma and recovering from not trusting yourself is to just go with what you need and don't get so absorbed in what everybody else is going to think.

Sara Banyan (26:27)

Listen, the pus of the underbelly of our country is coming out.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (26:35)

Okay.

Sara Banyan (26:36)

It's pus. It has to come out. We have to be brave enough to realise that this is just our watch. Like, the battle between good and evil has gone on since the beginning of man, and it will continue on way past our timetable and our lifetime. So we can get very distracted by this and that's happening, this and this. We can get reactionary versus responsive. We're reacting.

But no, I mean it like it's it's a little wackadoodle, and we're reacting and look at what he's doing now and look at that's a waste of time. How can you respond? It's we need to respond not react. What can I respond to? Where I can make a difference

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (27:28)

It's distracting us.

Sara Banyan (27:37)

With my personal background, what I'm responding to is not believing survivors of childhood and teen SA. And as a survivor who has found answers and can guarantee that there is hope and there is healing to be had and can share the answers, I know that we can make a huge difference if we stay focused on where we can control or where we can make a difference.

A lot of people also who are not healed are out there going, well, I need to make a difference here. I need to help this person and that person, this person or that family. You have to start with yourselves.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (28:15)

My goodness. So there's something wounded in trying to save everybody.

Sara Banyan (28:19)

Yes.

Yes. Yes. And then we're just trauma bonding and trauma reacting. And ⁓ one of my favourite songs is You Can't Rush Your Healing, Trevor Hall. And it's true. You've, it's an uneven, windy path, lots of ups and downs. And, you know the saying, 'hurt people hurt people.' Well, if we want to interrupt that cycle,

We need to stop hurting ourselves first.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (28:56)

So we need to focus on looking after ourselves instead of trying to. Do you think some people try to save anyone else because it might feel easier than saving themselves?

Sara Banyan (29:07)

Yes, or they feel like they don't deserve it, or they're not sure how to change it. And what I encourage people to do is just ⁓ start by first thing in the morning. Take the first 20 minutes to half hour of your day. Do not get on your phone. And just listen. Listen to what you're saying to yourselves. Just listen. How much are you focused on what you need to do? What hasn't been done? Who has? That was me. I'll talk about me personally.

When I started tuning in, I was like, this is a running list of what's not right in my life, or who hasn't texted me back, or what bill needs to be paid, or how my dog is acting. Like, it was all worry, fear, doubt-based. It wasn't filled with like, I'm grateful to be here. I am present in this moment. I am sipping this incredible cappuccino. I am, ⁓ yeah.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (30:01)

...

just feel like dots are joining everywhere. Do you think that needs fixing, this needs fixing, around every aspect of our existence? Does that emerge, out of old traumas of any sort?

Sara Banyan (30:18)

I think so. I think so, especially if you're a child of a parent who was not there for you or a narcissist or abusive. You're constantly walking on eggshells. You're constantly having to manage or crisis manage so that there's not that next explosion or outburst or hit or silent treatment. Like you are constantly on edge. So you have been trained and groomed and taught to take care of people.

First, before yourself, because it's dangerous if you don't.

Which kids who have experienced beautiful, healthy childhoods with supportive parents, that's not necessarily their journey.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (31:06)

Yes. And I, I know that your focus is specifically on the sort of abuse that you overcame. And, and I need to make sure that I don't branch out too much in exploring all of the types, because I think that people have gone through so much with the pandemic and then trying to, everybody is trying to get back on their feet. feel like we all took a few years to get back on our feet after all.

So we all went through a lot, but I need to really just specifically ask. Firstly, you do talk to audiences and you talk to communities. I'm wondering what advice do you normally have? Firstly, if someone tells you, if someone says to someone else, something happened to me, what advice do you have for them when maybe people might be totally not equipped?

To receive that, where should they begin?

Sara Banyan (32:08)

Great question. The first thing in the movement that I want to begin is when you hear that from someone is you say, 'I believe you.'

I believe that something happened, and I'm so sorry.

I'm here to hold space and listen if you'd like. Or, you know, as I've told people, it can make people very uncomfortable. I'm not. I've listened to survivor stories all over the world. I've heard some of the most horrific stories of abuse that you could possibly fathom. But I know that things change when a survivor is heard and seen and listened to.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (32:56)

Step one is to say, believe you.

Sara Banyan (32:59)

I think so.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (33:02)

And so the first step isn't necessarily what solution do you want, it's just hear them.

Sara Banyan (33:10)

Yeah, because our job is not to fix other people.

But when we're uncomfortable around someone else's discomfort or shame, we re-traumatise.

And it's okay to be uncomfortable. That's where we connect. And we need more of that.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (33:34)

I'm wondering for anyone who has experienced something significant, how do they know? Should they, should they find a friend or someone they're informally connected to, or is it always the first step to do something officially or what's the first step?

Sara Banyan (34:00)

For a survivor who is experiencing maybe flashbacks or remembering abuse or knows, is listening and knows that you're a victim, where do you start? Yeah, that's a great question. ⁓ Well, number one, I want everyone to start by going to IbelieveYouFilm.com. There's a 12-minute trailer.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (34:13)

Where do you start?

Sara Banyan (34:26)

for the film that I'm doing that will immediately actually give you some insight to this type of abuse. It's a film I went and did a three-hour interview with my former trauma specialist on studying, identifying, and understanding this type of trauma. So that film will come out next year, but the trailer is available. We're still raising funds to finish it, but we're very close. I want everyone to know that no one will know better than you what you need. Now you might have someone helping guide in moments of discomfort, but there's a lot of people out there who aren't necessarily experts just because they have the training. And as someone who went through a lot of traditional psychotherapy, it did not help me; it actually fractured me more. So, yeah.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (35:17)

Let's look into that.

Why? What, what was getting missed in that? Because a lot of people go to normal, not normal, but traditional therapy and just feel like they're not making any progress, and then they think therapy isn't for me. They don't maybe know there are different types. So what didn't work?

Sara Banyan (35:34)

Yeah.

Being psychoanalysed, having another human being listen to some of my worst moments and me saying, 'Do you think?' And them saying, I don't know, what do you think? Or, how does that make you feel, Sarah? I don't know, because I don't know what happened. Like, my whole system was rewired. So working with another human being that you both know you're on the same level, because when it comes to trauma, there is no right way.

We're all trying to figure it out. Will compares it to being a balance beam that you're gonna fall off. So you don't wanna find someone who's like, is the right way for you, because it's a partnership. So number one, especially if you haven't shared your story with someone, I want you to find the right person to share it with. Sometimes when our trauma starts coming up, I wanted to share it with everyone.

Because I was like, I finally found the answers, but not everyone wants to hear it. So if you sense that you're telling someone and they start to shut down or look at their phone, immediately pivot back off, protect yourself, and recognise that person is not safe for me to tell my story to. And then find them. Not everyone's ready. And then find someone who is and go slowly.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (36:49)

Not everybody is ready.

Sara Banyan (36:56)

You don't need to flood. You can go slowly. It's not all gonna happen overnight.

And find the podcast, the books, the time quietly with yourselves, like spending time with you. ⁓ Little things that help when it comes to going through recovery, something very simple, get a very soft blanket.

I want you to get a very soft blanket and I want you, if you wake up or you're having flashbacks, I want you to self-soothe. I want you to put that blanket on your cheek, and I want you to rock yourselves back and forth and back and forth. Let the tears out. Every time you cry, it's a disease you do not get later on in life. Let those tears out. I know it sucks, but it's worth it because on the other side is enlightenment. On the other side is hope. On the other side are the lessons. But sometimes we just have to walk through the deepest, darkest hell to find who we are and what we're made of and what we're born to do here on this lifetime.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (38:09)

On the other side is enlightenment.

Sara Banyan (38:11)

Yes.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (38:14)

How did you find enlightenment on the other side? Are you saying that it was easier to reach that on the other side?

Sara Banyan (38:21)

No,

nothing was easy. But that being said, one of the things that I started doing is recognising how many times I would say to myself, this is really hard. Like I'd literally just be picking something up under the corner going, God, is, why is this so hard? And in a moment I just thought, why am I saying that? This is so easy. This is so easy. And the minute I did that, whether it was in yoga or cleaning the house or paying a bill,

Be cognizant of what we're telling, what you tell yourself. If you say it's hard, it's gonna be hard. It's not.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (38:59)

So things are literally physically more difficult when we tell ourselves that they are.

Sara Banyan (39:06)

Correct.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (39:09)

That's really powerful. Seriously, so much of what you're saying just crosses over into so many other types of recovery. But, but I know that you have your main message. Sorry.

Sara Banyan (39:27)

I do a class called Facing the Imposter

And everyone in there has gone through all kinds of different trauma. And I believe that the imposter voice, the voice that says you're not enough, you're to this, you're not fit enough, you're not rich enough, you're never gonna be able to succeed, you always finish last, you can't finish anything, you're ugly, you're damaged. All those voices are not actually our own.

I think those have been planted or taught or trained or society, parents, school. So learning how to separate ourselves from the imposter actually creates a level of freedom. The method is, people have told me it feels like therapy on steroids. And I see massive results with this course that I've been developing over the past couple years. So I'm really excited because there's other ways to heal that's outside of traditional methodology.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (39:57)

Absolutely.

would love to see more of that online because the imposter syndrome, it's, it's such a big issue at the moment in general. And if you're helping to overcome that, I just honestly, I felt like what you were describing was so relatable that to be real with you, normally I have the next question just stuck in my head, and it's sitting there waiting to come out. this time it's like,

I'm just so absorbed in what you're saying that everything else just floods out of my head. So, but it's nice to just to change that. ⁓ that's a good thing.

Sara Banyan (40:56)

That's being in the moment. That's great.

It is a good thing. It is a good thing. Because now you're doing an exercise where you can start trusting yourself. Where you don't have to pre-plan the question. Where you can just be present with me and know that wherever we go next, you can find it right now with me.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (41:24)

Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. So it's okay to just empty out the mind for a moment. Gosh. I feel like you're just, you're helping so many people in all of these teachings, and that's so encouraging. Okay. But see the questions emerge as you're saying things. So one of the ones that it's coming back to me, one thing I really wanted to ask about is when you want to tell people that something happened, and maybe in general, people might be feeling like they're still bouncing back, and they want everybody to have a bit of patience for a while, but they know that not everybody will handle the whole big story, or maybe for privacy, you can't say everything. So, and I think one thing that I've been trying to understand is how to handle how other people are going to respond. So you said that some people are going to just shut down and not really engage with what you're telling them. Have you found that there are ways, I mean, your big message to your broader public that you're connected with is that you had a trauma. So I'm guessing that some people will just not know how to respond to that, or it could even prompt them to feel really emotional if it's triggering something for them, or they feel extra sensitive. So, how do you navigate sharing your truth in a way that people can basically handle and interact?

Sara Banyan (43:03)

I was an actress, so I had to read the room ⁓ and know my audience. Listen, when I first started telling my story, people didn't want to hear it. They don't want to hear it. It's very uncomfortable for people. But I was pressured to talk about it because I was uncomfortable.

I'm not uncomfortable anymore. It's my story, it's my truth, and this is what happened, and it changed my life. It's made me who I am today. And I would rather sit and talk to someone who was violently ⁓ molested than talk to someone about the weather. That's just who I am. I don't need to talk about the weather. For as long as I live. Doesn't matter. It's the weather. It's beautiful. I accept all kinds of weather. But I want to know your story. I want to know your truth. I want to know where you were in one of the worst days of your life, if you want to share it with me. But not everyone wants to go there. Now, people are fascinated by it. But I think the most important thing is to get comfortable in it first with yourself. And if someone reacts in a way that doesn't feel good, don't let it hurt you. Don't let how other people react to your story affect you. It's lovely when people have connected with me over it, but I can't take the time to manage the people who aren't okay with my story. I need to power through and do whatever it takes so that I can live an authentic life. And how people respond is none of my business. It's none of my business.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (44:45)

Part of your empowerment is not being responsible for how everybody receives your truth.

That's going to be really crucial. So I'm really keen to ask more about making the movie. So what happened for a moment? I'm curious. How did you get about starting to make the movie? How did you decide that this was the format and the time in history, and so on to express your story in this way? And well, how did you make it?

Sara Banyan (45:29)

After I finished my therapy with Will, I knew I wanted to share his work with the world. And he's a phenomenal storyteller, and I trust him. I trust him, and when people watch it, they'll trust him too because you can tell when someone is authentic and his intention is to help people, as is mine. I opened a credit card, I flew to Ohio, I hired a crew, I directed it.

I produced it, I just did it. I'm someone who doesn't really know the next step; I just take it. And if I happen to fall, I look at where I can learn the lessons, but I kind of just make it up as I go along. That's the, people will tell you, Sarah never really knows her next step, she just keeps taking it. So it's, I didn't know what it was gonna be, I just knew that I wanted to share.

his words and over the past three years it has changed, it has morphed, it has grown and now it is what was advised to me by the 501C that's fiscally sponsoring me, we want a mental health impact award, is that this is a movement and the movement is I believe you and those being the most important words that we can say to survivors. There's so many projects out there about the pedophiles and about the people who are doing this but I know that I can't change them. What I can do is help the victims and I can empower victims, and I can help victims understand and navigate this world when maybe they felt alone. And I just keep figuring it out as I go along.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (47:16)

Three words, I believe you, it's going to become your slogan maybe. And it's, it's a simplified one thing that everybody can do, and you don't have to do anything.

So it sounds like you just dove in and made the film with what you know, like the back of your hand, after so much acting.

Sara Banyan (47:43)

I'll send it to you, I'll send you, we still have to do final sound and color mixing, but you'll see.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (47:51)

Amazing, thank you so much.

Sara Banyan (47:53)

No, I thank you. Thank you for being willing to talk about this subject and going deep. And I think, you know, it's the beginning.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (48:04)

It is. I'm wondering when the film comes out, where will people be able to access it?

Sara Banyan (48:10)

That I'm not sure. Again, I don't know. I've been working on the companion book. So when I Believe You comes out, I'll also have a book called The Language of Invisible Scars. And that is gonna be a companion book to here's the trauma, here are exercises, here's how to basically begin to heal ourselves physically, emotionally, psychologically, sexually, spiritually.

⁓ So it's all just kind of like trusting earth time versus me trying to go like, it should be here or there. The right people will emerge, the right platform will come, and the movement that we will create of believing survivors will take on a different speed, and it's time.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (49:01)

What you're doing is even inspiring people to make something and share their story before they have the permission of a major platform. You didn't sit around and wait for Netflix to approach you. You just, on your own, did this.

Sara Banyan (49:14)

No.

Yes.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (49:19)

You don't have the Netflix, the networks, the cinemas, whoever. You just made it. Be independent.

That's a really great idea. Do you think that, ⁓ so what's one call to action now since the film isn't out yet? Should people go to your website? They need to listen to the trailer.

Sara Banyan (49:44)

Yeah, watch the trailer and you'll get a really good idea. It'll also hook you up with my newsletter. ⁓ And ⁓ again, I think for a lot of survivors, those 12 minutes give a little bit of insight and relief. Just wait, we have 55 minutes coming soon. So it's www.ibelieveyoufilm.com.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (50:09)

Amazing. Thank you so much for your honesty, and honestly, you're smiling and you're looking like you are fine. And that has been such a joy. You shared such a raw truth, and yet you're doing okay, which shows that anyone else can be okay and bounce back like you have.

Sara Banyan (50:19)

Yes.

We don't bounce back, ⁓ we break, and then we find and then we become. And it's in the becoming that we walk into a level of enlightenment that I don't think anyone who has not experienced trauma can achieve. That's just my personal opinion. I think survivors will change the world, and I can't wait to see that.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (50:58)

My goodness. Survivors will change the world. Sarah, thank you.

Sara Banyan (51:03)

My pleasure, Melanie. Thank you.