The Negotiation

Topics Discussed and Key Points:

●      Why is it vital for 21st century businesses to focus on data

●      Innovations in the data and AI space in China

●      What is “growth hacking” and why is it most applied to early stage startups?

●      What distinguishes data collection and analytics in China from those of other countries?

●      The typical customer journey in China versus that of the West

●      How an expat stays on top of all the tech developments in China

●      Creating brand loyalty in China

●      How businesses can avoid data overload

●      Data collection tools businesses can use and Daphne’s favorite strategies

Episode Summary:

Today on The Negotiation, we speak with Daphne Tuijn, a specialist in China’s eCommerce and technology space.

She is the Co-Founder and CEO at Chaoly, a Shanghai-based company that offers a proprietary cloud-based data platform that integrates their clients’ data together with big data sources from major Chinese platforms such as Tmall, Baidu, WeChat, Weibo and Little Red Book. Chaoly’s Insights-as-a-Service then provides actionable insights and intelligence derived from the data.

Daphne is also the Co-Founder and CEO at WebshopinChina.com, a full-service eCommerce agency with offices in Shanghai and Amsterdam.

With 900 million internet users in the country and 52% of all retail being conducted online, China is truly a pioneer in the eCommerce space, globally. This has naturally led to China becoming known for its enormous data collection capabilities; however, Daphne says that data availability is one thing; being able to use it is another. In fact, in China, “there might be too much data. As they say, ‘Data is the new oil.’ But similar to oil, data needs to be refined in order for it to be used.”

Daphne also shares her best practices for creating brand loyalty in China as well as how the role of Key Opinion Leaders (KOLs) differs between the Chinese and Western markets. She also touches on the various ways brands can collect data in China both personally and from third-party sources while avoiding data overload.

Key Quotes:

“Data is extremely important in two ways: On the one hand, it allows you to make educated decisions instead of basing your decisions on gut feeling. [...] Using data as a preparation point to understanding the market is a good way to assess your success and to see if, indeed, you should put your money on [a decision]. Also, data helps you assess whether your performance is okay.”

“In China, the issue is not the availability of data. On the contrary, there might be too much data. As they say, ‘Data is the new oil.’ But similar to oil, data needs to be refined in order for it to be used.”

“You can look at the data but, ultimately, data itself is just a snapshot.”

Topics Discussed and Key Points:

●      How sports evolved in China over the past 1500 years

●      Why team sports have been slower in China

●      The role that the Chinese government plays in sports

●      What reform in the Chinese sports industry currently looks like

●      How the sports entertainment world looks in China with regards to live events

●      How foreign organizations can connect with sports fans in China

●      What is a “venue” in China?

●      What Greg expects for the 2022 Winter Olympics

Episode Summary:

Today on The Negotiation, we speak with Greg Turner, an industry leader in live sports and entertainment events and venue management in China. He is the Founder and Managing Director at High Performance, which manages and promotes events at Shantou University Sports Park. Greg himself led the development of the STU Sports Park; a $110 million project donated by the Li Ka Shing Foundation to Shantou University.

Before Greg’s involvement with STU, he served as the General Manager at XingYang Sports Culture Development, having been recruited directly by China’s first-ever Winter Olympic Gold medalist Yang Yang to manage her investment into the development of ice sports in China. During his eight months working on the initiative, Greg led his team in building up various grassroots programs for ice hockey, figure skating and short-track speed skating, establishing Feiyang as Shanghai’s premier public ice-skating facility.

Listen in as Greg talks about the factors that shaped the development of the sports industry and culture in China, from their unique government-driven character to the Soviet-era roots that motivate the nation to dominate the global sports world.

Greg then talks about the differences between sports cultures in the West and in China, what foreign organizations should focus on when looking to establish themselves in the local sports industry, and the reforms that the industry is currently undergoing.

Finally, Greg explains how live events are organized and promoted in China as well as his thoughts on the 2022 Winter Olympics.

Key Quotes:

“Sports in China operates a lot different than what we’re used to—it’s very government-driven. Government policy lays the framework for how it’s going to be developing. That dates back to 1918 when the first paper that Mao Zedong published was on the lack of personal fitness for Chinese people and how that was impacting their ability to build a strong nation.”

“[China aims to have sports consumption] become one of the new pillars of the Chinese economy. They’re shifting away from manufacturing and they’re trying to have more of a balance between service and manufacturing—maybe more on the service side. Sports are seen as part of that basket of industries that are going to develop the national economy and help it keep growing.”

“Sports, [for the Chinese] is just one piece of the entertainment diet that they have. If they have to choose between watching their favorite player or favorite team play a game or watching a movie with friends, it’s actually a really difficult decision. If you add in dinner, they’re probably going to choose the dinner first and foremost. So, sports doesn’t have that same drive and passion that it has in the West.”

“Doing business in China is kind of like boiling water: There’s nothing going on for a long time then, all of a sudden, everything explodes. [...] I think sports is right on the cusp of boiling point.”

“With everything going on in the world in China and in the U.S., one of the things that I take heart in is that sports is a great uniter. We’ve seen that in the past and I hope we can see that again as we go through the next few years.”

Topics Discussed and Key Points:

●      Marketing a football league in China

●      How other EU teams are finding fans in China

●      Do foreign clubs have limited time to grow their followings as the Chinese government looks to expand local football culture?

●      How different countries grow their sports and how closely China intends to follow those existing strategies

●      The future Yao Ming of football in China

●      Where the majority of Borussia Dortmund’s marketing spend is going

●      Tactics for growing a sports brand in China

●      Why China and Germany have such a strong relationship

Episode Summary:

Today on The Negotiation, we speak with Benjamin Wahl, a brand strategy, business, and sports development expert. He is Head of China for the German professional football club Borussia Dortmund. Prior to this, Benjamin led the China strategy for Bayer 04 Leverkusen from 2016 to 2017, establishing a youth football academy in China in the process.

Listen in as Benjamin talks about his five-year experience as a sports solution professional working in the China market. He speaks on how his own Borussia Dortmund was able to gain a foothold in the country and the marketing efforts they have been most focused on in order to spread the club’s culture and fanbase.

Benjamin also touches on how other EU-based clubs are doing in China by comparison and what makes Germany stand out with regard to its relationship with China compared to those of other European countries.

Finally, Benjamin shares tactics that other organizations and clubs can use to grow a sports brand in China and describes Borussia Dortmund’s branding and marketing strategy that he refers to as “The Challenger Approach”.

Key Quotes:

“When I go to [local football games] I’m always surprised at what a real fan culture they already have. When I speak to fans, I think it’s common that they have two clubs here: the local club attached to a region or a city [...] and a second team in Europe.”

“With a team sport like football, and probably even basketball, it takes time—years—to establish the sport and a big base of players.”

Topics Discussed and Key Points:

●      Charles’s history doing business with China and his current role at WPIC

●      How Charles defines “creativity”

●      Maintaining creativity in-house versus outsourcing creativity to KOLs and KOCs

●      How brands should go about looking for KOLs or KOCs in order to maximize ROI

●      Teaching creativity

●      Differences in creative processes between the West and the East

●      How brands can stay creatively consistent in different markets

●      How foreign brands can cut through the noise in the Chinese market

Episode Summary:

Today on The Negotiation, we speak with Charles Lavoie, who leads and manages WPIC Creative Labs.

Prior to joining WPIC in April 2021, Charles had served as the Marketing Director at BIOTWIN, the Director of Strategy and Business Development at PBB Creative, and China advisor to both Can Life Sports and CareerUp. He is also the co-founder of Beijing-based Infina Vodka and is responsible for the growth of the company from the ground-up to distribution across 10 different cities in China, Hong Kong, and the Northwest of Africa.

Charles’s career so far has seen him developing brands, design thinking strategies, and advertising campaigns for clients such as Acura, Uber, Daimler, Tencent, Tourism Vancouver, World Bank, as well as the Quebec and Canada Governments.

According to Charles, the challenge of the creative professional is to bridge the “gap between invention and commercialization”, which requires innovation, and not necessarily about creating something new but looking instead at the existing brand and their existing resources, and from that fashion an idea that benefits the business by being both profitable and relevant.

Listen in as Charles compares the strengths of in-house creative control to those of outsourcing creative to KOLs and KOCs. He also gives his thoughts on how to “teach” creativity to your team, navigating differences in creative processes between the West and the East, and delivering creativity through a consistent brand framework in different markets.

Key Quotes:

“[Creativity] to me is bringing past or existing concepts or inspirations together to create something new.”

“The gap between invention and commercialization is innovation. [...] We can be creative as much as we can, but the big challenge is to be creative and relevant.”

“China is way stronger in anything that is technical and the West is stronger in everything that is strategic.”

Topics Discussed and Key Points:

●      How Yoann’s work with startups and founders differs from his work with corporate clients

●      Clients that Yoann typically works with as a sales trainer

●      How B2B selling has historically been done in China compared to today

●      The value of WeChat in sales

●      General differences between how sales is done in the West versus in the East

●      What Yoann has found to be the most difficult lesson for his coaching clients

●      How Chinese buyers differ from Western buyers

●      How is public speaking perceived in China and is it used as a tool for sales?

Episode Summary:

Today on The Negotiation, we speak with sales trainer Yoann Delwarde, Founder and CEO of Infinity Growth Ltd, a Shanghai-based firm that offers sales coaching and consulting to a wide range of clients, including multinationals, startups, MBA students, and accelerators and incubators.

Yoann is one of twelve Experts in Residence for Chinaccelerator and a strategic advisor for allrites, Atiom, and GloCoach. He is also a lecturer on sales management and entrepreneurship at Shanghai Jiao Tong University in Shanghai as well as Emlyon business school in Écully, France.

Infinity Growth aims to bridge the Western and Chinese mindsets toward entrepreneurship to ensure that they maximize their clients’ sales capabilities. Their key indicator of success is in the fact that they primarily attract their clients via word-of-mouth.

Because “it’s so easy to lose your reputation in China”, Infinity Growth looks at their increasing clientele as a sign that their sales training approach is resonating with and leading to great results among the local entrepreneurs and business professionals they work with.

Yoann shares what distinguishes sales in China compared to America and Western Europe, including differences in buyer behavior, the role of public speaking in the business world, and how eCommerce and social media are used differently in the East and the West.

Key Quotes:

“If there’s one thing I came to understand in China, it’s to always under-promise and over-deliver. [...] It’s so easy to lose your reputation in China, it’s insane.”

“If I take the angle of B2B sales, I think the main difference [between how sales are done in the West versus in the East] is around trust. In Europe, and even in the U.S., first, you make business, then you become friends. [...] In China, first you become friends, then you make business.”

Topics Discussed and Key Points:

●      The rise in ice hockey’s popularity in China over the past decade

●      Does the lack of infrastructure growth for hockey in China limit how much interest the sport receives?

●      How Can Life lets the Chinese youth experience the “hockey culture” that Canadians are so familiar with

●      Why has the development of hockey been emphasized in China lately?

●      How is China developing players to be potentially drafted into the NHL?

●      What is the extent of the NHL’s involvement in the growth of hockey in China?

●      Which famous hockey players have the most sought-after jerseys in China?

Episode Summary:

Today on The Negotiation, we speak with Kevin Hui, a serial entrepreneur and marketer who has worked across the sports, film, education, and capital markets industries with a focus on early-stage businesses.

Kevin is the current President of Beijing-based Can Life Sports, the leading company in developing and growing ice hockey in China launched in 2011. He is also the Co-Founder of Northern Lights Media, which provides production and post-production services as well as Chinese localization of foreign content.

Kevin attributes the rise of hockey’s popularity in China to the growth of the ex-pat community in the country over the last decade. However, the 2022 Winter Olympics is what has truly skyrocketed interest in the sport. Also, in 2015, the same year the announcement was made that Beijing would host the Winter Olympics, Andong "Misha" Song became the first Chinese-born hockey player to be drafted into the NHL.

Since the spike in interest in hockey in 2015, interest has slowly receded. “Hopefully what we’re doing here [at Can Life] and what the Olympics is going to do for the industry will allow it to steadily grow,” says Kevin.

The lack of infrastructure growth in China is a huge barrier to entry for those looking to get into ice hockey. In spite of this, Kevin believes that the key to growing the sport in China is by exposing the youth to the same “hockey culture” that he and many other Canadians are so familiar with. The key to this, he says, is the fun factor. “When you get to experience fun, that’s just something that you don’t forget.”

Key Quotes:

“At Can Life, we promote the competition but we focus more on the fun, the friendship, and the hockey culture that we grew up experiencing in Canada.”

“[Growing hockey in China] is about spending five to ten years working together, failing, succeeding, failing again, and creating their own system that’s adapted to the international way of operating but creating it for the local market.”

Topics Discussed and Key Points:

●      How translation technology has evolved over the past 20 years

●      The difference between translation and interpretation

●      How to train interpreters

●      Why translation and localization of content is so important in China and Japan

●      What to look for when hiring a translator

●      Examples of localization gone wrong and how to make amends if this happens to you

●      Understanding cultural and consumer nuances when translating in a foreign market

Episode Summary:

Today on The Negotiation, we speak with language translation expert Wendy MacKenzie Pease. For almost two decades, she has been the owner and President of Rapport International, which provides high-quality foreign language translation and interpretation services for businesses.

She is the author of The Language of Global Marketing: Translate Your Domestic Strategies Into International Sales and Profits (2021).

What differentiates Rapport from other translation services or technologies is the company’s focus on culturally adaptive marketing copy, which currently cannot be replicated by a computer. While Rapport does not use machine translation, it does use translation memory. This allows translators to record phrases or descriptions used over and over again by a particular company. Translation memory helps maintain message consistency across marketing campaigns.

According to Wendy, “Translation is written. Interpretation is spoken.” Each activity is done by professionals of different aptitudes: Translators are those who love writing and research while interpreters are naturally empathetic communicators.

Human translation and localization are so important for companies doing business in China simply because of their enormous presence in international commerce. As touched on above, today’s machine translation technologies are too inefficient and sometimes outright cumbersome to rely on for such a vital step in a business’s marketing efforts.

For foreign brands looking to translate and localize in China—or any country, for that matter—the first step is to have a detailed long-term corporate strategy, which will inform their specific marketing strategy. Finally, this leads to the creation of the company’s global, or multilingual, marketing strategy. All three of these strategies need to be clearly defined and aligned before a company enters a new market.

Key Quotes:

“Translation is written. Interpretation is spoken.”

“Be careful who you’re picking to do your translation. Even though your business partners may speak English well, they may not understand it enough to do the translation. [...] Make sure that you’re getting a professional who’s a trained translator.”

Topics Discussed and Key Points:

●      The evolution of China’s outbound foreign direct investment

●      Is China’s outbound FDI being used primarily for political or economic reasons?

●      Where outbound FDI is headed in the next five years

●      Differences between China’s bilateral and multilateral free trade agreements

●      How partner nations have changed their approach to China over the years

●      The future of the Belt and Road Initiative

●      How U.S-China relations will evolve under the Biden administration

●      Where opportunities for the U.S. to collaborate with China lie

Episode Summary:

Today on The Negotiation, we speak with Professor Min Ye, an author and an Associate Professor of International Relations at the Frederick S. Pardee School of Global Studies at Boston University. Her expertise includes Chinese political economy, China and India comparison, East Asian international relations, and globalization with focuses on transnational immigration and foreign investment.

Min Ye gives a broad overview of how globalization, state capitalism, and outbound foreign direct investment have evolved in China in the last few decades. She describes China as a “latecomer economy in Asia”. When the country opened itself to doing business internationally in the late 1970s, it embraced outbound FDI because it had to fast-track its technology and manufacturing sectors and make exports earn foreign exchange as quickly as possible.

Due to the COVID-19 crisis, alongside shaky U.S.-China relations, outbound FDI may see a change in strategy to adapt to the reorganization of global supply chains. Also, there will be a greater focus placed on China’s digital, health, and ecological sectors.

With regard to free trade agreements of any kind, Min Ye explains that China will always take the most pragmatic approach that is conducive toward globalization. “It depends,” she says, “on China’s internal readiness and the external environment.”

Asked about the future of the BRI, Min Ye says that, after eight years of laying the foundation for this massive global infrastructure development strategy—and not to mention on the heels of the pandemic—China is now much clearer on what they can and cannot accomplish. She expects “a sharper focus and a clearer context” going forward, including a more risk-conscious strategy, a willingness to cooperate more amiably with recipient governments, less of a need to “create political and social impact”, and a greater focus on digital infrastructure—which is to be the BRI’s core.

Finally, Min Ye believes that, with a less hostile approach, the U.S. will be able to better cooperate with China under the Biden administration, especially today when the two countries are sharing pressing concerns around public health, climate, business, and data security.

Key Quotes:

“Because I understand that domestic politics in Asia typically shape their regional economic policies, I created this framework called ‘Critical Juncture’: When a crisis occurs, domestic leadership and policy networks interact across countries and that leads to new institution-building in the region.”

“[With regard to bilateral and multilateral free trade agreements,] Chinese elite thinking and policy establishments do have strong convictions toward globalization. But their perspective on globalization is very pragmatic, so it doesn’t really prioritize one way or another. [...] It depends on China’s internal readiness and the external environment.”

“In dealings with China, style matters hugely. I feel like Americans suddenly forgot that it’s about creating relationships when you work with China.”

Topics Discussed and Key Points:

●      What are modular buildings and why are they generally stronger than regular buildings?

●      Stack Modular’s typical customer

●      How developed is the modular housing industry in China?

●      The limitations of modular housing and how they are overcome

●      Shipping modular buildings across the ocean and keeping them intact

●      3D printing and home manufacturing

●      Why Stack Modular has no local customers in China

●      How COVID-19 has affected Stack Modular’s business operations inside China and sales outside of China

●      How Jim, a foreigner, is able to manage a business with so many moving parts in China

●      What the future holds for Stack Modular

Episode Summary:

Today on The Negotiation, we speak with Jim Dunn, President at Stack Modular, a Vancouver-based construction company that manufactures modular buildings for residential, hospitality, commercial, and resource sectors. He is also the President of Dunn Global, Ltd., a Shanghai-based procurement firm now considered the leader in Chinese manufactured housing exported to North America.

From his native Canada to Los Angeles to Africa to China, Jim’s passion for the building world brought him globe-trotting opportunities through the years. Today, Jim splits his time between China and North America pushing Stack Modular into exciting new modular fields, from resource housing to hotels to office spaces.

The modular housing industry in China has grown exponentially in the last several years, surpassing even the industries of the West. This came after a realization that buildings can be built faster, cheaper, and stronger, and that these can be produced at scale.

Jim goes on to talk about the unique budgetary, logistical, and labour-related challenges that come with the territory for Stack Modular, why the construction industry has yet to undergo major innovations in 2021, and how the pandemic has impacted Stack Modular’s business operations both inside and outside China.

Key Quotes:

“Over the last half a dozen years, China says to itself, ‘Wow, you can build a building faster, cheaper, and stronger in a factory environment. They saw something that made sense and they acted on it. Here in Canada, we’re slow to act.”

“People have reinvented every industry that you and I use every day, whether it’s communication, technologies, textiles, or agriculture. Everything’s been reinvented, except construction. Construction is the low-hanging fruit.”

“If you can’t hire quality people, passionate people, loyal people, your business will never take off, much less in China.”

Topics Discussed and Key Points:

●      A general overview of the cosmetics market in China

●      The most popular beauty products in China compared to the rest of the world

●      The popularity of live streaming in the beauty space

●      A primer on Key Opinion Consumers (KOCs)

●      How consumer behaviors in China differ from those in the West in the cosmetics market

●      Hero products by the largest cosmetics brands in China

●      Why there are significantly more male consumers for beauty products in China than in the West

●      Advice for cosmetics brands looking to enter China

●      Cutting-edge marketing tactics particular to China

●      What up-and-coming companies are doing to compete with large, even global, brands

●      How COVID-19 has affected the Chinese cosmetics industry

●      L'Oréal’s China strategy

Episode Summary:

Today on The Negotiation, we speak with Chloé Goncalves, Asia E-Commerce Manager at L'Oréal. Previously, she served at Alibaba as a Digital Marketing Manager, working up to the role of International Business Development Manager for Tmall Global before leaving the company in January 2021 to work with L'Oréal.

The cosmetics market has grown exponentially for the past several years, and today is the second-largest in the world after the U.S, with an estimated revenue of $22 billion—an amount that is expected to triple by 2024. 25% of sales take place via E-Commerce, and this number has been rising faster than ever thanks to COVID-19.

Chinese women generally have a more extensive skincare routine than those in the West. Skin whitening products are also a staple in the market. Also, because of the high pollution problem alongside high-stress lifestyles, Chinese consumers tend to seek products that address specific problems, including blemish, wrinkle, and acne removers. Finally, there has been a rise in the popularity of male grooming, which includes makeup, in China.

Live streaming is hugely popular in the beauty industry in China. The country is the largest live streaming industry in the world today, with the pre-COVID number of over 500 million live streamers having no doubt skyrocketed in the past year.

Chloe mentions that Chinese consumers use E-Commerce not only to save time but to spend time. That is, even without the intention of buying anything, they visit platforms like Taobao or Tmall to watch live streams or read blogs not just from Key Opinion Leaders (KOLs) but, even more so, from Key Opinion Consumers (KOCs). There are now more than 100 apps and platforms in China that offer live streaming features.

For foreign brands looking to enter the Chinese cosmetics market, Chloé’s first tip is to find great local partners to take care of operations, marketing, and logistics. Her next piece of advice is to home in on ten key, hero products that would best fit China’s particular market instead of bringing in its entire suite. Her final tip is to invest in a marketing strategy that will help the foreign brand cut through the noise that is made up of countless existing brands as well as countless existing E-Commerce and content creation platforms.

Key Quotes:

“What’s really interesting in China is that consumers use E-Commerce not to save time, as we would do in the West, but to spend time. So, even though they don’t want to buy anything, they would connect on Taobao and Tmall to watch live streams and videos and read blogs and articles.”

“[For brands looking to enter China,] the first tip would be to find the right partner; especially if you’re a small brand and don’t know the market well, you really need to have a local partner that will help you do all the operations, the marketing, the logistics, etc.”

“China is a long-term journey. In terms of investment, we usually advise brands to invest 20-30% of their annual sales target in marketing to make sure that they can achieve their sales forecast and sales goals.”