How powerful is propaganda—really?
In this episode of The Next Best, Marcel Dirsus speaks with Gavin Wilde, a former White House official and U.S. intelligence analyst, about why we consistently overestimate the impact of fake news, disinformation, and "information warfare."
From World War I and Edward Bernays to Russian hybrid warfare, social media bots, and AI-generated deepfakes, Wilde argues that propaganda is far less decisive than we like to believe.
We discuss:
• Why democracies struggle with persuasion and media literacy
• How Russia exploits existing social fractures rather than creating them
• Why calling out disinformation can sometimes backfire
• Why "ignoring it" might be a more rational strategy than constant outrage
The conversation also explores AI, deepfakes, hybrid warfare, and the limits of deterrence in the information age—challenging many of today’s dominant assumptions.
Timestamps:
00:00 — Why ignoring propaganda might be the most rational response
00:29 — Introduction: Gavin Wilde on propaganda, Russia, and hybrid warfare
00:53 — What propaganda actually is (and how it differs from persuasion)
01:04 — World War I, democracy, and the birth of modern propaganda
03:40 — Edward Bernays, psychology, and “torches of freedom”
05:10 — Propaganda as belonging, not mind control
06:29 — Propaganda in democracies vs. autocracies
06:50 — Nazi Germany, the Soviet Union, and reinforcing existing beliefs
09:18 — The internet, bots, deepfakes, and how the game supposedly changed
09:57 — Computing, social science, and the myth of predictable persuasion
12:20 — Why propaganda and advertising oversell their own effectiveness
13:50 — Russia, hybrid warfare, and election interference
14:17 — Do we know Russia interferes in Western elections?
15:30 — Soviet history and the roots of Russian information warfare
17:32 — Opportunism vs. grand Kremlin strategy
18:58 — The risks of overestimating foreign interference
19:28 — Why blaming propaganda undermines democratic agency
21:35 — Exploiting existing divisions & the Doppelgänger operation
23:10 — When exposing disinformation backfires
24:40 — Policy takeaway: why “ignore it” may be the best option
25:58 — Should democracies fight back with information warfare?
26:11 — Why information warfare is fundamentally autocratic
27:30 — Telling a better democratic story (not just better facts)
29:24 — Kinetic hybrid warfare: sabotage, terrorism, and fear
31:34 — Attribution, deterrence, and why resilience matters more
34:10 — Artificial intelligence, deepfakes, and the “dog that didn’t bark”
36:51 — What we still get wrong about human behavior and propaganda
37:54 — Closing remarks
The Next Best with Marcel Dirsus offers deep dives into geopolitics and international relations. We provide serious political commentary on foreign policy challenges, modern warfare, and global security.