The Off-Ramp Project

Dr. Janja Lalich and I talk about cults (we are both cult survivors and cult researchers) and we meander through these topics:

Why people join:

• The main thing that attracts people to cults is their own idealism.
• Most people are recruited into cults by friends and family.
• Making enemies and monsters on the outside is one way that cults keep people trapped.
• Isolation is a key way that cults and abusers control people; if you're a concerned person on the outside, keep the lines of communication open if you can.
• Don't argue about the cult or the leader; be a friend and include them in pleasant times to remind them of the possibilities on the outside of the cult or abusive relationship.

When people leave:

• Become their safe haven; don't challenge or lecture or criticize.
• Let them decompress; they've been through hell and need some time to think their own thoughts.
• Support them in learning more about how cults work so that they can see how they were taken in -- and how to avoid cultic control in the future.

About the supposed "power" and charisma of cult leaders:

• Cults are first and foremost abusive relationships, and you can leave them and heal.
• Charisma and power don't live inside leaders: we give it to them, and we can take it back.
• You can save money on transcendent cult-leader-inspired experiences and just take LSD instead (this is a joke, but not really).

Learn more about Janja's work and find support: https://www.lalichcenter.org/

Books mentioned in this episode:

Bounded Choice

Take Back Your Life

Escaping Utopia

Cults in Our Midst

See them at Bookshop: https://bookshop.org/lists/the-off-ramp-project

During a grief ritual I was teaching, I got a question about hatred on one of my YouTube videos, and it helped me see how soothing and orderly hatred can be.

In a time when we're losing so much, and things feel out of control, the simple act of hating and adoring people can give us structure in an otherwise overwhelming time of chaos and loss.

Idealizing and adoring our leaders -- or hating and dehumanizing them -- these polarized acts can soothe us, even though they're not healing, and will lead to mountains of loss in the long run.

Grief, on the other hand, is massive, and ever-changing, and it leads us into depth and complexity -- and a profound understanding that we cannot control the world by polarizing ourselves. But if we have no practice for grief, it can be simpler to avoid it and pretend that we can control the flows of the world by sitting in hatred, idealization, polarization, hierarchies of human worth, and certainty.

The practice for hatred and adoration is Shadow Work, and the practice for grief is a grief ritual in a community that can help you create some healing structure in a time of great and oceanic loss.

Mentioned in this episode:

Shadow Work books at Bookshop: https://bookshop.org/lists/shadow-work-4ea99124-7347-4af8-9faf-915c6a0448aa

The Language of Emotions: https://bookshop.org/lists/karla-mclaren-s-books

Braver Angels: https://braverangels.org/what-we-do/take-an-ecourse/

Fun with your shadow: https://karlamclaren.com/the-twisted-love-inside-hatred-revisited/

One of the ways you can tell that a social structure is unhealthy (and even cultic) is by the presence of what I call "hierarchies of human worth."

The suffix "archy" means "to rule" or "to be first." Hierarchies are rigid structures that grade and order things from first to last, and if we apply order to things, hierarchies can be very useful.

Think of the PEMDAS hierarchy that helps you make sense of mathematical equations, or the flowchart hierarchy of a good computer program. Equations and programs simply wouldn't work without hierarchical processes.

But if humans and other living things are thrown into hierarchies, you will see damage to empathy, emotional functioning, and social functioning throughout the hierarchical system. You will also see violence -- physical, emotional, social, spiritual, sexual, relational, etc. -- throughout these rigid structures. Hierarchies are for things and processes; they're not for not living beings. Patriarchy is a hierarchy of human worth, and the damage we see is absolutely to be expected -- especially when there are only two class members: Men and boys ruling, and women and girls being ruled. It's a dangerously simple-minded structure that brings damage to everyone trapped inside it. The solution is not to move to yet another archy; it's to reimagine ways of being human, of working together in social groups, and of reimagining power structures that are not inherently violent.

The problem is not in men as a category or in patri as a prefix. The problem is the archy.

Mentioned in this episode:

Frans de Waal on the truth about alphas: https://youtu.be/BPsSKKL8N0s?si=fz1LFAr987kfti10

A good critique of the CNN story by Joshua Goldberg at Substack: https://substack.com/home/post/p-194481801

My books The Power of Emotions at Work and (with Janja Lalich) Escaping Utopia: https://bookshop.org/lists/karla-mclaren-s-books

There will be situations where you can't be an off-ramp, and it's important to face them and know where your edges are.

It's also impotent to have temporal empathy for yourself -- which is the capacity to hold a vision of yourself figuring things out one day. It's okay to fail, and as the Tao de Ching says, "The glory is not in never falling, but in rising every time you fall."

I mention Braver Angels in this episode, and they are here: https://braverangels.org/our-mission/

And the marvelous book by David Graeber and David Wengrow, The Dawn of Everything: A New History of Humanity, is here at Bookshop: https://bookshop.org/lists/the-off-ramp-project

In this time of end-stage capitalism, when everything is for sale -- our time and attention, our emotions, and our empathy -- it's important to know that we have a choice.

Empathy is not simply the ability to feel alongside people; it's our capacity to interact with anything -- people, animals, art, literature, music, concepts, ideas, and even inanimate objects. Our capacity to empathize is a part of our capacity to interact and make sense of our world.

If people ask you to drop your empathy (completely, or toward people and groups), they're asking you to be less functional. That's not workable in the short run or the long run.

Here are some ideas about how to retrieve your empathy from the control of others.

Karla mentions the group Leaving MAGA: https://leavingmaga.org/

Books mentioned in this episode:

Karla's books, The Art of Empathy and The Language of Emotions at Bookshop: https://bookshop.org/lists/karla-mclaren-s-books

Books from this episode that help you take multiple perspectives (an excellent way to develop robust empathy) at Bookshop: https://bookshop.org/lists/the-off-ramp-project

Missing the Solstice on Kindle and in paperback: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0F6TRWRBZ

In a time when our emotions, our empathy, and our loyalties are being manipulated constantly -- and when we're being pitted against each other for the benefit of the people in power -- how do we find our way back to ourselves and each other?

How do we reclaim our good minds, our empathy, and our emotional lives so that we can face the serious troubles in our world together, with courage, camaraderie, hope, and a sense of humor?

And how can we do that when we're surrounded by intentional chaos, polarization, dehumanization, and intense manipulation of our emotions and our empathy?

In The Off-Ramp Project, we explore the undercurrents that have led us to this painful and chaotic time, and we focus on protecting our emotions and empathy from manipulation, understanding the end goal of polarization and dehumanization, seeing clearly through high-control and cultic tactics, and understanding the end-times thinking that drives a lot of what we're facing.

This podcast is focused on the crisis in the United States, but it's helpful for anyone facing emotional manipulation, injustice, abuse, authoritarianism, cultic control, extremism, and the hijacking of empathy.

I have devoted my life and career to developing "empathic badassery," a form of empathy that is deep, muscular, and willing to dive into the shadows of human nature. Therefore, The Off-Ramp Project doesn't support the creation of enemies, of sides, of polarization, or of "those bad people who are creating all of the problems."

We're in this together. We broke this together, and we'll fix it together.

And we'll build new off-ramps. Together.

Episode 16: How do we create off-ramps for ourselves, and become able to offer off-ramps for other people -- especially people we're being urged to distrust, hate, or even dehumanize?

In the 16 episodes of this season, we've looked at some of the complex factors that have led us to this polarized and endangering time of emotional manipulation, cultic mechanisms of control, cruel hierarchies of human worth, and the constant manipulation of our attention and our emotions in this time of unregulated endstage capitalism. It's a lot.

But it's not everything.

There are things we can do to support ourselves and each other in this time of trouble. We can become off-ramps for ourselves and step away from polarization, distrust, and dehumanization to reclaim ourselves again.

We can refuse to become weaponized, and instead offer our presence to people we're being urged to exile.

We can find ways to become off-ramps to others -- if they're ready to step away, and also if they can't quite do so yet. The time to make up your mind about people is never.

This marks the final episode of season 1 of The Off-Ramp Project. Thanks for listening. Take care of yourself, and I'll see you in Season 2.

Books mentioned in this episode:

Missing the Solstice by Karla McLaren: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0F6TRWRBZ

Beyond the Politics of Contempt by Doug Teschner, Beth Malow, and Becky Robinson: https://beyondthepoliticsofcontempt.com/

In this episode, I'm joined by authors Doug Teschner and Beth Malow to talk about their new book: Beyond the Politics of Contempt -- and it's such an important book for our polarized and contempt-filled times.

We've been taught to polarize ourselves and see difference as absurd or dangerous, and we've been invited to show contempt for people who don't believe or vote as we do.

These are social injuries, and they require social solutions. Doug and Beth talk about their book and their work as Braver Angels volunteers and leaders -- which has helped them avoid contempt, and learn how to reach across divides, de-polarize themselves, and rehumanize others.

Taking an off-ramp from this time of extreme polarization means identifying and challenging the ways we've been manipulated into warring camps. We don't have to agree, but we do need to stop exiling and demonizing others if we want to get anywhere worthwhile.

Books and sites mentioned in this episode:

Beyond the Politics of Contempt by Doug Teschner, Beth Malow, and Becky Robinson: https://beyondthepoliticsofcontempt.com/

Together Across Differences (Doug and Beth's FREE Substack): https://togethernow.substack.com/p/one-month-since-the-book-launch

The Hidden Tribes Report (a research project about understanding polarization in the US): https://hiddentribes.us/

High Conflict by Amanda Ripley: https://bookshop.org/p/books/high-conflict-why-we-get-trapped-and-how-we-get-out-amanda-ripley/1aa1a2637891ca8d

The Case for Phone-Free Schools by Jonathan Haidt: https://www.afterbabel.com/p/phone-free-schools?r=182klo&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=email

Bowling Alone by Robert Putnam: https://bookshop.org/p/books/bowling-alone-revised-and-updated-the-collapse-and-revival-of-american-community-robert-d-putnam/0a3388f210d22ad0

The Upswing by Robert Putnam: https://bookshop.org/p/books/the-upswing-how-america-came-together-a-century-ago-and-how-we-can-do-it-again-robert-d-putnam/64510b7b8b907f87

BALANCED AND UNBIASED MEDIA OUTLETS

Tangle News: https://www.readtangle.com/

AllSides: https://www.allsides.com/unbiased-balanced-news

he Flip Side: https://www.theflipside.io/

Ground News: https://ground.news/

Your situational depression is an essential emotion that helps you become aware of realities you may have been avoiding, and it removes your ability to move forward doing the wrong thing with the wrong intentions for the wrong reasons at the wrong time.

Sadly, we've been taught to see our situational depression as an unwanted thing -- a psychiatric disorder, and something not to be trusted. This is such a shame.

Sadder still, when the intelligence in our situational depression is not available to us, we can be vulnerable to people who want to control us by manipulating our depression (this happened on a national scale in 2015).

In this episode, we look at ways to listen to our own situational depression so that we can be better protected around people who would try to manipulate us into depression for their own gain.

Books and practices mentioned in this episode:

The Depression Inventory: https://karlamclaren.com/taking-a-depression-inventory/

The Language of Emotions by Karla McLaren: https://karlamclaren.com/the-language-of-emotions-book/

The Language of Emotions Workbook by Karla McLaren: https://karlamclaren.com/loe-workbook/

Episode 13: Many people avoid shame, but don't realize that in so doing, they avoid growth, empathy, evolution, and becoming truly themselves.

It's essential, then, to understand the difference between your own chosen, appropriate, and necessary shame versus the shame-blame that people use to control or abuse you.

In this episode, we look at ways to know the difference, and what to do if your essential and life-giving shame has been hijacked by abusive, controlling, and unhealthy messages.

Books and practices mentioned in this episode:

The Eyes of Horus by Joan Grant: https://bookshop.org/p/books/eyes-of-horus-joan-grant/bacd6c470976e817

The Language of Emotions by Karla McLaren: https://karlamclaren.com/the-language-of-emotions-book/

The Language of Emotions Workbook by Karla McLaren: https://karlamclaren.com/loe-workbook/

The Burning Contracts practice for shame: https://karlamclaren.com/reworking-a-toxic-emotion/

The Burning Contracts video for shame: https://youtu.be/bsphw5C7aIE?si=K3lKUszSeUrADt07

Missing the Solstice by Karla McLaren: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0F6TRWRBZ

Stolen Pride by Arlie Russell Hochschild: https://bookshop.org/p/books/stolen-pride-loss-shame-and-the-rise-of-the-right-arlie-russell-hochschild/645bfe0a64abb5be

Mistakes Were Made (but not by me) by Carol Tavris and Elliot Aronson: https://bookshop.org/p/books/mistakes-were-made-but-not-by-me-third-edition-why-we-justify-foolish-beliefs-bad-decisions-and-hurtful-acts-carol-tavris/507560a2efd55431