The Oral Talmud

“Opinions that are contradictory to one another, the opposite of one another are both the words of God.” - Dan Libenson

Welcome to The Oral Talmud, our weekly deep dive chevruta study partnership, discovering how voices of the Talmud from 1500 years ago can help us rethink Judaism today. 

This episode is dedicated to beloved Talmud translator Rabbi Adin Steinsaltz who passed in 2020, in the days before recording this episode. After honouring his life, Dan and Benay return to learning the deeply radical daf Eruvin 13. (For background, listen to Episodes 12, 13, and 15.) The legend of Rabbi Meir asks us to think about the qualities of the Talmud’s ideal person, how they think and lead in the world. Today we explore how this question comes alive in the relationship between the early rabbinic Schools of Shammai and Hillel, in the famous “Elu v’Elu” story!

What is the relationship between translation, access, and the joy of figuring it all out? How important is it to notice which Divine Names the Talmud authors are invoking in particular stories? How do we deal with the indeterminacy of truth? Can it be that God actually wants us to hold opinions that are contradictory to one another? Is this text a lesson on the best way to convince people of our opinions or the best way to build lasting relationships with people we disagree with? How do we preserve dissent for the future?

This week’s text: “Elu v’Elu, These and These are the Words of The Living God” (Eruvin 13b)

Find an edited transcript and full shownotes of references and further reading on The Oral Talmud webpage for this episode! Access the Sefaria Source Sheet to explore key Talmud texts and find the original video of our discussion. The Oral Talmud is a co-production of Judaism Unbound and SVARA: A Traditionally Radical Yeshiva. If you’re enjoying this podcast, please help us keep both fabulous Jewish organizations going with a one-time or monthly tax-deductible donation at oraltalmud.com. You can find a donate button on the top right corner of the website.

“We have to imagine that everything that we love today, or don't love, might end up in the Tisha b’Av of the future.” - Dan Libenson

Welcome to The Oral Talmud, our weekly deep dive chevruta study partnership, discovering how voices of the Talmud from 1500 years ago can help us rethink Judaism today. 

This episode was originally released for Tisha b’Av in 2020, the Jewish calendar’s most essential day of mourning and remembrance. In our new podcast re-release schedule, this episode is coming out much closer to Yom Kippur, the Day of Atonement. As Hashem would have it, Dan and Benay draw some fascinating connections between Tisha b’Av and Yom Kippur, deepening our appreciation and intentions for both. 

How do holidays slip away from their most potent purposes? What does it mean to mourn for something, somewhen, or someone without wanting it or them back? How do we deal with a guilt of not being in a constant state of mourning? How can we use Tisha b’Av to reflect on the great CRASHes of history, the shifting eras of authority and responsibility? What we can’t imagine losing?

Find an edited transcript and full shownotes of references and further reading on The Oral Talmud webpage for this episode! Access the Sefaria Source Sheet to explore key Talmud texts and find the original video of our discussion. The Oral Talmud is a co-production of Judaism Unbound and SVARA: A Traditionally Radical Yeshiva. If you’re enjoying this podcast, please help us keep both fabulous Jewish organizations going with a one-time or monthly tax-deductible donation at oraltalmud.com. You can find a donate button on the top right corner of the website.

“I love the world of the Talmud. I love the fact that they need to justify, they wanna justify, they wanna talk and talk and talk; the way that people who are less socially confident sometimes find themselves doing, when we're in a situation where we're in a new community, and we just, you know, ramble! That's something I love about the Talmud.” - Shai Secunda

Welcome to The Oral Talmud, our weekly deep dive chevruta study partnership, discovering how voices of the Talmud from 1500 years ago can help us rethink Judaism today. 

This week Dan & Benay learn with special guest scholar Shai Secunda! Shai Secunda is Jacob Neusner Professor in the History and Theology of Judaism at Bard College. He received a bachelor’s degree from Ner Israel Rabbinical College, a master’s from Johns Hopkins University, and an MA/PhD from Yeshiva University. He is the author of “The Iranian Talmud: Reading the Talmud in its Sasanian Context” (University of Pennsylvania Press, 2014) and “The Talmud’s Red Fence: Menstruation and Difference in Babylonian Judaism and its Sasanian Context” (Oxford University Press, 2020).

What are some aspects of the geopolitical context in which the Talmud was formed? What was it about the time, space, and culture where the Rabbis lived that led them to construct the Gemara, its winding justifications and responses to the rarely justified radical changes of the Mishnah? How granular can we get into eras of the Talmudic period? Was anyone else doing what the Rabbis were? How do we navigate difficult gaps in evidence?

Find an edited transcript and full shownotes of references and further reading on The Oral Talmud webpage for this episode! Access the Sefaria Source Sheet to explore key Talmud texts and find the original video of our discussion. The Oral Talmud is a co-production of Judaism Unbound and SVARA: A Traditionally Radical Yeshiva. If you’re enjoying this podcast, please help us keep both fabulous Jewish organizations going with a one-time or monthly tax-deductible donation at oraltalmud.com. You can find a donate button on the top right corner of the website.

“I find it deeply moving and worthy of homilies that arguably the most influential voices in the history of Jewish thinking are anonymous.” - Daniel Boyarin

Welcome to The Oral Talmud, our weekly deep dive chevruta study partnership, discovering how voices of the Talmud from 1500 years ago can help us rethink Judaism today. 

This week Dan & Benay learn with special guest scholar Daniel Boyarin! Boyarin is the Hermann P. and Sophia Taubman Emeritus Professor of Talmudic Culture in the Departments of Near Eastern Studies and Rhetoric at the University of California at Berkeley. He is the author of many articles and books on the Talmud, including “A Traveling Homeland: The Babylonian Talmud as Diaspora” (2015), “Border Lines: The Partition of Judaeo-Christianity” (2004), “Carnal Israel: Reading Sex in Talmudic Culture” (1993), “Socrates and the Fat Rabbis” (2009), “Unheroic Conduct: The Rise of Heterosexuality and the Invention of the Jewish Man” (1997), and, most recently “The No-State Solution: A Jewish Manifesto” (2023), themes of which Boyarin experiments with in this interview from the Summer of 2020. 

What does it mean to approach to Talmud as a portable homeland for a Diaspora nation? How does it feel to be charmed by Talmud? Is Talmud a project of intentional incoherence? What lessons do we learn from the voice of the anonymous editor(s) of Talmud. How do we find a usable past?

Find an edited transcript and full shownotes of references and further reading on The Oral Talmud webpage for this episode! Access the Sefaria Source Sheet to explore key Talmud texts and find the original video of our discussion. The Oral Talmud is a co-production of Judaism Unbound and SVARA: A Traditionally Radical Yeshiva. If you’re enjoying this podcast, please help us keep both fabulous Jewish organizations going with a one-time or monthly tax-deductible donation at oraltalmud.com. You can find a donate button on the top right corner of the website.

“It's only when you know why, and the essence behind the whys, that you are able to create. You're able to then be free of the momentary form of a practice, which is trying to achieve a certain goal, and create other forms that achieve that same goal.” - Benay Lappe

Welcome to The Oral Talmud, our weekly deep dive chevruta study partnership, discovering how voices of the Talmud from 1500 years ago can help us rethink Judaism today. 

This week we return to the legend of Rabbi Meir, who we began learning about in Episode 13. When we met him, he was a master of Rabbinic acrobatics, able to turn any law inside out, and offer his incredible logic as support. Now we’re going back a page to learn about his origins, who his teachers were - and how he learned to “Gemar his Gemara & Savar his Svara!”  

Why hone our gemirna and savirna? How do we learn to find the radical messages on every page of Talmud? What do we get from different teachers? When do we turn to Rashi’s commentary, and how do we put it in context? Why do we ask “why”?

This week’s text: Rabbi Meir’s Origins (Eruvin 13a and Sotah 20a)

Find an edited transcript and full shownotes of references and further reading on The Oral Talmud webpage for this episode! Access the Sefaria Source Sheet to explore key Talmud texts and find the original video of our discussion. The Oral Talmud is a co-production of Judaism Unbound and SVARA: A Traditionally Radical Yeshiva. If you’re enjoying this podcast, please help us keep both fabulous Jewish organizations going with a one-time or monthly tax-deductible donation at oraltalmud.com. You can find a donate button on the top right corner of the website.

“Even if the good book was not written by God, the Talmudic page is often a good place to encounter the Divine.” - Ruth Calderon

Welcome to The Oral Talmud, our weekly deep dive chevruta study partnership, discovering how voices of the Talmud from 1500 years ago can help us rethink Judaism today. 

This week Dan & Benay learn with special guest scholar Ruth Calderon, author of “A Bride for One Night: Talmud Tales” (2014). In 1996, Calderon founded ALMA: A Home for Jewish Culture in Tel Aviv, where she built pathways for secular Jews to enter into Talmud study. Calderon also served on the Knesset from 2013-2015, and reflects on dynamics between secular and religious Israelis, as well as the impact of coronavirus in 2020 (when this episode was recorded). 

How do we find our paths to Talmud? What is Talmud doing that gives the sense of the Divine? What does it mean to “read against grain,” and how can it help us expand our perspective? What can the story Ruth brings teach us about how the Rabbis thought of approaching death? Who do we see in this relationship with Death now?

This week’s text: Rabbi Yehoshua ben Levi and the Angel of Death (Ketubot 77b)

Find an edited transcript and full shownotes of references and further reading on The Oral Talmud webpage for this episode! Access the Sefaria Source Sheet to explore key Talmud texts and find the original video of our discussion. The Oral Talmud is a co-production of Judaism Unbound and SVARA: A Traditionally Radical Yeshiva. If you’re enjoying this podcast, please help us keep both fabulous Jewish organizations going with a one-time or monthly tax-deductible donation at oraltalmud.com. You can find a donate button on the top right corner of the website.

“You don't have to stand outside of the tradition to fix it. If you realize where the tradition is wrong, that doesn't put you outside of it. That puts you squarely in the center of it, standing on the shoulders of the greatest ones who have the ability to, from the inside of tradition, using the Torah’s mechanisms and ideas to overturn it.” - Benay Lappe

Welcome to The Oral Talmud, our weekly deep dive chevruta study partnership, discovering how voices of the Talmud from 1500 years ago can help us rethink Judaism today. 

Part 2 of our exploration of L’Taher et HaSheretz! Using the Torah to make ritually pure the very creepy crawlies which the Torah says are ritually impure! Last week we learned that this feat of Rabbinic acrobatics was a requirement for holding a position in the Sanhedrin, the ancient Jewish court system. This week we learn about Rabbi Meir, who could justify changing ritually purity and impurity statuses like he was juggling! 

What is the discussion of shifting ritual purity status a radical metaphor for in the Talmud? When does argument get us closer to the truth, and when is it just arguing to derail? How do we peel apart the historical figures in the Talmud from what they’ve come to symbolize? How would YOU purify the sheretz?

Tune in next week for an exciting interview with Ruth Calderon, author of “A Bride for One Night: Talmud Tales”.

This week’s text: Rabbi Meir, Sumakhus, Ravina, and the Sheretz (Eruvin 13b)

Find an edited transcript and full shownotes of references and further reading on The Oral Talmud webpage for this episode! Access the Sefaria Source Sheet to explore key Talmud texts and find the original video of our discussion. The Oral Talmud is a co-production of Judaism Unbound and SVARA: A Traditionally Radical Yeshiva. If you’re enjoying this podcast, please help us keep both fabulous Jewish organizations going with a one-time or monthly tax-deductible donation at oraltalmud.com. You can find a donate button on the top right corner of the website.

“And in Jewish law, if you get 23 Jews to agree on something? You know something is wrong!” - Benay Lappe

Welcome to The Oral Talmud, our weekly deep dive chevruta study partnership, discovering how voices of the Talmud from 1500 years ago can help us rethink Judaism today. 

Come and learn BENAY’s favourite text in all Talmud: L’Taher et HaSheretz! Here the Rabbis ask what qualities are required in someone who will serve in the ancient Jewish court system, the Sanhedrin. We get two very different, absolutely radical opinions, and the second will be our jumping off point for the next few episodes. 

Are the story sections and legal sections of Talmud really all that different? How do they relate to each other? When do we desire unanimity, and when is it a sign of a greater problem? Who do we want in charge of decisions of life and death? How do the Rabbis teach us to overturn Torah this time?

This week’s text: Who is Fit for the Sanhedrin (Sanhedrin 17a-17b)

Find an edited transcript and full shownotes of references and further reading on The Oral Talmud webpage for this episode! Access the Sefaria Source Sheet to explore key Talmud texts and find the original video of our discussion. The Oral Talmud is a co-production of Judaism Unbound and SVARA: A Traditionally Radical Yeshiva. If you’re enjoying this podcast, please help us keep both fabulous Jewish organizations going with a one-time or monthly tax-deductible donation at oraltalmud.com. You can find a donate button on the top right corner of the website.

Welcome to The Oral Talmud, our weekly deep dive chevruta study partnership, discovering how voices of the Talmud from 1500 years ago can help us rethink Judaism today. 

Like our previous week’s episode, this was recorded in June of 2020, in response to the brutal murder of George Floyd at the hands of police. Likewise, we turn to another text which emphasizes the culpability of bystanders and those who remain silent when witnessing cruelty – a story of how one wrong party invitation devolves into the Fall of Jerusalem. When is it time to speak up? How do victims of harm understand our silence? What compromises are we willing to make to avoid worse consequences? Which actions become understandable when we recognize how deeply the social contract has been violated? When we tell stories about our past, what are we saying about our present?

This week’s text: Kamtza, bar Kamtza, and the Fall of Jerusalem (Gittin 55b-56a)

Find an edited transcript and full shownotes of references and further reading on The Oral Talmud webpage for this episode! Access the Sefaria Source Sheet to explore key Talmud texts and find the original video of our discussion. The Oral Talmud is a co-production of Judaism Unbound and SVARA: A Traditionally Radical Yeshiva. If you’re enjoying this podcast, please help us keep both fabulous Jewish organizations going with a one-time or monthly tax-deductible donation at oraltalmud.com. You can find a donate button on the top right corner of the website.

“You’ve got to decide with whom and where your voice is going to be heeded. Where are you going to have the power to effect change? That’s your olam. If we get to this big world, we can become actually overcome with powerlessness. But I think that’s the driving question of the bottom line of this text. What’s your world? Who’s your kahal?” - Benay Lappe

Welcome to The Oral Talmud, our weekly deep dive chevruta study partnership, discovering how voices of the Talmud from 1500 years ago can help us rethink Judaism today. 

This week’s episode was recorded in June of 2020, in response to the brutal murder of George Floyd at the hands of police. We turn to a piece of Talmud which SVARA shared out in the days following, a lens for understanding the enormous groundswell of protests and political action which followed in response. What is the context of this powerful slogan about the responsibility to protest? Who is in a meaningful position to speak out in different spheres? What does it mean to be impactful without being able to immediately solve systemic issues? 

This week’s text: The Obligation to Protest (Shabbat 54b-55a)

Find an edited transcript and full shownotes of references and further reading on The Oral Talmud webpage for this episode! Access the Sefaria Source Sheet to explore key Talmud texts and find the original video of our discussion. The Oral Talmud is a co-production of Judaism Unbound and SVARA: A Traditionally Radical Yeshiva. If you’re enjoying this podcast, please help us keep both fabulous Jewish organizations going with a one-time or monthly tax-deductible donation at oraltalmud.com. You can find a donate button on the top right corner of the website.