The Passionistas Project Podcast | Passionate Women Empowerment Hosts

Dr. Nicole de Paula has been globally connecting policymakers and researchers for more than a decade to create a public understanding on key issues related to sustainability and public health. As a Planetary Health advocate, she champions the socioeconomic advancement of women through environmental conservation. She is the founder of the Women Leaders for Planetary Health and in 2019, she became the first awardee of the prestigious Klaus Töpfer Sustainability Fellow at the Institute for Advanced Sustainability Studies in Potsdam, Germany. Nicole is the author of the book “Breaking the Silos for Planetary Health: A Roadmap for a Resilient Post-Pandemic World.”

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FULL TRANSCRIPT:

Passionistas: Hi, and welcome to the Passionistas project podcast, where we talk with women who are following their Passionistas to inspire you to do the same. We're Amy and Nancy Harrington. And today we're talking with Dr. Nicole de Paula, who has been globally connecting policy makers and researchers for more than a decade to create a public understanding on key issues related to sustainability and public.

As a planetary health advocate, she champions the socioeconomic advancement of women through environmental conservation. She's the founder of Women Leaders for Planetary Health and in 2019, she became the first awardee of the prestigious Klaus Töpfer Sustainability Fellow at the Institute for Advanced Sustainability Studies (IASS) in Potsdam, Germany.

Nicole is also the author of the book “Breaking the Silos for Planetary Health - A Roadmap for a Resilient Post-Pandemic World.”

So please welcome to the show Dr. Nicole de Paula.

Nicole: Hi, Nancy and Amy. Thank you for having me.

Passionistas: What's the one thing you're most passionate about?

Nicole: I think recently it's definitely planetary health. Uh, we've been advocating so much and at the beginning, the term was what is planetary health sounded like a horror cop thing. Right? So it was the, it was a term that sounded, it was a bit weird in some language doesn't translate. Well, I think in German, for example, it's, it's, it's hard to translate in Portuguese as well.

I'm from Brazil. So, uh, it was also a bit funny, but definitely is the topic that we should be talking about specifically. Now when we need to recover. Hopefully from this pandemic.

Passionistas: So tell us of what planetary health means and how it relates to what you do for a living.

Nicole: Yeah. So maybe what I do, I'm my background. I tend to say I'm a fake doctor, right? So I'm a, I have a PhD in international relations, so I'm not a magical doctor cause I've been talking a lot with public health experts. It's quite an interesting exercise. And so planetary health, uh, from my perspective is of very interesting narrative of things that decision makers should.

Talking about or acting. So it's basically everything. So the planet is changing, right? We say that if the planet is sick with all the climate change impacts biodiversity loss, pollution, you know, we, we don't know anymore what we have in our foods. So much chemicals there processed food, you know, and crisis.

We used to have a big problem of course, with hunger and. You know, half of the population is obese. So of course we're changing our lifestyles and the way the planet is changing and the way that we are impacting our planet. So that's why we say this anthropogenic impacts we need it's impacting public health.

So the decision normally is what is health at the end of the day, right? Is everything that is inside our bodies and is just this small system. Or we should talk about health. Connected to the health of our planet. So the planetary health is a scientific discipline or, um, not discipline is there is discussion that I think is started as saying as a discipline, but let's say it's an approach, a new area of studies calling that way.

I think many researchers were already discussing sustainability connecting to the, to human health. So again is very simple. It's just trying to connect sustainability to public health policies and on the, on the issue of. scientists are trying to understand how exactly climate change impacts, you know, human health.

We have heat waves that impact, you know, the most vulnerable in cities. Uh, so we're trying to measure that's. So that's not exactly what I do, you know, when people will do modeling and, but in the end, we need to communicate and inform decision makers of this field and say, what do we do about it? And that's the, what I'm passionate about.

How do we get the science and bring it to the people who can take these decision? And it's of course not an easy thing, especially this days, but we keep trying. So you mentioned COVID talk about how the relationship to COVID and planetary health. Like what, how is it affecting the world on the planet?

Yes, COVID is as, um, sometimes mentioned and I notice in a book it's. Of course, it's a very bad thing, but if every crisis brings an opportunity, that's the sad reality. If we need change, we probably learn through love or pain. Right. So it's very hard to change behavior if you don't have a big crisis and COVID is now showing I think stimulating this conversation about, okay, what is exactly connections?

It's, it's just, just a sanitary thing. It's, uh, the disease, but what you're learning now and, and. Trying to communicate. Actually, I think a lot of people have been trying to communicate this before, but the way, for example, deforestation, the way we are transforming our environment, we are, uh, increasing the chances of this contact with new viruses.

So for example, illegal wildlife. Trading, you know, if you're bringing species to different and because the world is so connected in three days, the whole, if you have a new disease in three days, the whole world is contaminated. So the COVID is really showing that we need to connect more. The dots. Between these issues of biodiversity conservation.

You know, this, there is a link with zoonotic diseases. When you have pathogens, frighten animals, jump to humans, we still, we don't have definitive answers about how exactly COVID was created, but six out of 10 new diseases come from animals. You know, so this, this zoonotic disease. So, so we know that we are creating some sort of this possibility of increasing diseases and, and climate change.

For example, Our natural ecosystem. So new mosquitoes there wouldn't be in Europe, for example, because of the climate. Now, if we find, so we have a new ecology of, of these diseases that it's important to understand and study again, we have, uh, researchers doing that. So planetary health brings this conversation and links, uh, this points.

Passionistas: So let's take a step back. You talked about the fact that you're from Brazil. Tell us a bit about growing up there. And when did you first become aware of these issues and what inspired you to pursue this field.

Nicole: Of course, I mean, I think I always wanted to, I remember as a, let's say teenager, the time you need to decide about university, I was between.

Two things. I think I, I love studying. So I think my thing, I love learning. So doesn't matter what it is. I people say, oh, what's your favorite? You know, subject? I liked everything. Uh, at the end I started being better at humanities and others, but I was still at some point. Good, very good in chemistry. Very good in math, some parts of physics.

So I wish I had more talent. I wish I had kept my talents. I found that time would be great for calculating it or model. Days, which I don't feel they're very capable, but I enjoyed, uh, learning and, and, and I enjoyed traveling. So that was a big thing. So I think, you know, if you're uncomfortable in new places.

So for example, from Brazil, I remember going to Portugal at early age and I didn't enjoy so much because it was so similar. To Brazil. And I think nowadays I would think, uh, differently because it's a fantastic city in LIBO, for example, it changed so much, but the traveling part was inspiring. And so I was trying to find things, you know, what is, what can I do that unite all this many disciplines that I enjoy and, and traveling.

So I initially, um, I also was very good at debating, especially my family. If I wanted something I would debate until they were tired. So it was, uh, some people found that of course, very annoying, but they thought would be, I would be a good lawyer. Right. So I thought about it. And in the end I found this brochure, that's saying, oh, international relation.

It was a new course at that point, you know, remember also globalization and all this. So that's something we have a very, of course at the university of Sao Paulo is let's say top university in Brazil, depending on the subject, but is very, uh, important center, but they didn't have international relations when I was applying for it.

So there was another univers. The head leading that in Sao Paulo and from Sao Paulo. And so I joined that and started doing international relations, but at that point, nobody knew what do you do with international relations? Right? It just, and in the first year it was, it was actually the time when the United States.

Was not ready to sign or, you know, was withdrawing from the Coda protocol, which is the whole, the initial agreement, uh, in the whole climate sphere. So as a student in political science, I was like, why, if it's such a good thing for the planet, why we have the biggest power saying that they don't wanna agree with this?

You know, that's, it's good for the plant. So that's how I entered the, the climate diplomacy conversation. So again, I entered the sustainability sphere through the political. Perspective. Right. And then from that on, I was started doing a lot of understanding how countries negotiate about the trees. So it was climate then biodiversity and quickly I could actually move to France.

So my university had an agreement. So I moved to France and then started studying a lot from the perspective of European union, which is another whole in region and negotiations of agreement to have a global position. So all that it's endless and it was fascinating. But I tended to focus on the sustainable stable development aspects.

And, you know, we have in Rio, Brazil also, we are very, it's a very important country for sustainable development. The Amazon has always been on the agenda. We have infinite natural resources, you know, is the mega diverse, uh, countries top.

So Brazil has been very important for this negotiations. And so that's why I started my academic life. And there was no specific moment, right. This, I had an aha moment for other things later, but for that, I just really enjoyed the disciplines.

And, and that's how I think also. We say the planetary health is really about multidisciplinary, you know, whatever we do, we need to unite disciplines. And international relations was always a, let's say a collection of disciplines. You did economics, law, sociology, you know, theology, linguistics things. And you had to make sense of all this.

So I think from the early age, I was maybe comfortable navigating multidisciplinary systems and which today is very useful because, you know, you're kind of comfortable. You're not there to protect a discipline and you're just free to kind of have this dialogue, which is so, so important. So tell us about some of the fellowships that you've done through the years, the international Institute for sustainable development.

Passionistas: What was your work like there?

Nicole: Yeah, so, well, the international for sustainable development is actually the it's more, um, it's a think tank and that's through this organization that I could. Actually be in the practice of sustainability tracking sustainable development in real time, because you are, uh, going to all this at the UN and, and, and trying to understand the country's positions and why.

So it's a lot of work of Intel in the end, the product you would say you would do reports and informing in a very succinct, uh, way what countries are doing. However you need the whole background. So we were, most of the people there were doing their PhDs or at least a master in one of the specific negoti later negotiations.

So it was more, uh, yeah, so we were part of a global team tracking this, but usually also connected to your academic. Research. So this was during my PhD times where I could, I think, you know, I don't know, almost 60 countries and, and it was gave a lot of perspective, you know, from what people think, because one solution, you know, in Europe is not a solution in Africa is on solution in Latin America.

And that's, that's why it's so slow. And that's why it's so difficult because of course we do need global solutions. However, you still need to kind of get the. Contextualized moments of this. So very challenging, but that's what I did there. It was really getting, uh, and track and sustainability in practice at the UN level.

Passionistas: And as we mentioned in our intro in 2019, you became the first awardee of the Klaus Töpfer Sustainability Fellow. So tell us about that period and what, and what that experience was like.

Nicole: So that's a very recent experience and it's, it's one of my favorites because it gave so, um, gave me a lot of freedom to, I think, do follow my passion and do the things that, you know, I use usually say it's it's.

When is a time that you have time and money together, you know, it never either you have time or no, uh, no money or money and no time. So this was, this fellowship is really dedicated for two kind of people do their projects and elevate them. And so I was so proud to, uh, cost software is the former Minnesota environment in Germany.

He was also the head of the United Nations department program before. So it was someone who was, you know, doing politics in Germany. But also went moved to Kenya and was the head of a large organization. And he had to also understand, right. This compromises, how it works. Africa is not the same as Germany.

So, um, and of course it's very influential. Public figure. So I, he, uh, and together a few of, I think Noble Prizes founded, uh, this Institute in, in Potsdam. And it's a very interesting, I think I had a lot of intellectual freedom there and I could develop the book, "Breaking the Silos for Planetary Health," which if you don't have time to sit down and write it's, you know, you never finish.

So I could do that. I could support Brazil in a large planetary health global event together with the Harvard university. And this was a fantastic, uh, really expanding the field of planetary health in Latin America. Because one of the things I try to say is there's no point of having planetary health conversation.

If it's only in Australia, Europe and you know, north America. So I need to bring that to the global south. And I could found the social enterprise, uh, called women leadership, monetary health, and, and this has opened so many. To a lot of my work today. So I really enjoyed that and, and very supportive colleagues and directors, and it was really, really a very fun time in my career. I must, I'm very thankful for that. I think it was, you know, when you got these things at the right time, you really could. I think I used the opportunity and then COVID came and that for me professionally, Was good because I was talking so much about health sustainability, and unfortunately, see, you need a crisis to push these things and it's a sad reality, but from that perspective was a good timing to talk about this.

Passionistas: Talk us through what you do. You connect policy makers and researchers. So what is that process? What's your day like?

Nicole: Well, that's funny. My day has been the most. I don't have a routine I have now. I think it's first two weeks that I'm having more of a routine in my life and I'm almost 40. So I enjoy that.

I think I worked a lot to get a lot of flexibility in my work life. So I have absolutely no routine because every day, and now with the pandemic, it became then a different world. Why we could do so much virtually and things, but it was more about, so I did a lot of work in different countries when. You know, ISD the internet.

When I said I was tracking sustainment about negotiations, every time was in a different country. So I would be in the desert and the next week I would be in the Arctic literally. So you'll have to Pack, you know, for north of Finland and Dubai. So it has been very hectic, but I enjoyed that, but definitely not a common.

Existence, especially for women, as we know, you know, people expect that you have your traditional things and then you have your family life like a traditional way and all that. And I always refused in a way and said, no, that's really exciting to not have these routine. That's not what I want. And during this time, so you, why, if you travel so much, you're also connecting with people around the planet.

So it facilitates so. Your work doing, you know, if you have to gathering intelligence, you have to see what that country's thinking and what the others. So how can I, if I'm writing a paper. Or, or, you know, even my PhD, I had to really, for, for five years you were doing research and, and, and I was about the strategic partnership between Brazil and EU on the specific agreements.

So things are evolving, right? So I need to track that. And so this connection is. First through research because you have to inform and you have to publish and you have to get the knowledge, but then once, once you are working with these organizations, you're actually also transferring that knowledge or trying to, you know, it's not so much of an academic exercise, but if you do, if you're working with think tanks, then you do round tables and you do other events.

And it's more of the networking part, exchanging the word that I like here. Cross pollinating knowledge around disciplines. Institutions. So that's a lot of what I do. And so it's not a clear cut thing, but when you see, you have to yeah. Do your research like political scientist and a lot of interviews.

For example, the method, if you're this participant observant, you know, you are in the process. So not only reading cuz what is published in the end, it's not necessarily what was happening. There's so much in politics that cannot be published. That's why these personal connections are so important because you need trust from these individuals to get the information.

That's how I think, think it's a very important talent. So this personal [00:18:00] diplomacy with trust building networking in many countries that really helps to kind of today. I have my colleagues that, oh, we will. And I moved to Bangkok after, right. So I lived in France, then I moved to Thailand and I lived in Canada.

I lived in Washington, DC, and I lived in more in Brazil, of course. And now I'm in Italy. So it's kind of, some point gets Tre with the bureaucracy, you know, the visa things. That's, uh, what I'm, but apart from that is fascinating because you adapt and I think that's what the world needs today. Right? We all had to adapt so fast, but honestly, for me, it was.

When the lockdown came, I just felt that was just my regular life that everybody could finally understand that we could do so much online, that we could do so much virtually. So a lot of distracting of the negotiations we did virtually and I worked. Like this with slack or all this chat functions with people around the world that I never met since 2012.

So, you know, 10 years later, the world figured out that it is possible. We don't need to fly across the world to have, you know, a one-on-one meeting that that's absolutely insane

Passionistas: We're Amy and Nancy Harrington and you are listening to The Passionistas Project Podcast in our interview with Dr. Nicole de Paula.

To learn more about Women Leaders for Planetary Health's mission to empower women to lead planetary health solutions at frontlines of development in the Global South visit WLPH.org.

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Now here's more of our interview with Nicole.

Did you miss traveling though for someone who likes to be on the go.

Nicole: Exactly, that's a very, you know, interesting question and. The good thing is I did so much that I feel that. I feel a bit satisfied with, you know, the places that I've been and it's never enough there's no, if you like traveling, you know, you can always do again and, and learn more and spend more time. But I definitely felt at the beginning was fine because, you know, with the lockdown you could produce everything and write, I used my time, a lot to do the writing and.

What I miss is just, um, the easing, you know, the facility that you could go. So now, if you're in Italy, Italy, you have to go back to Germany. It feels like you're going to another continent in the civil war, you know? So, and that's the thing, it's very, it's sad because, you know, if you have family also abroad and it's just, it's kind of a, a worry that if you need to travel fast and, and, and not every.

We'll have, you know, the same advantages or being treated equally. So in the end, the most vulnerable will always suffer more. They will not have support. They cannot. So I miss, I miss the, the easy connections to exotic places. so in 2019 new co-founded the planetary health research group. So tell us about that and what the mission is of that organization.

So this group is at the, is hosted by the universal Sao Paul in Brazil. And, and it's hosted by the, there is an Institute for advances studies there and was with together with professor Antonio Saraiva, who is an absolutely partnering crime and that in Brazil and an amazing group of. Interdisciplinary researches.

So we were, we actually with professor sarava, we met in the first meeting of the planetary health Alliance in Boston. It was hosted by Harvard and we met in a museum, uh, with, you know, I think it was natural history and you have like ping wings around us. So it was a very fun dinner. And in the bit of the.

And we just connected. And for many years we were, you know, discussing and going to these meetings. Every, every it's an annual meeting until Brazil got the right to host for, for the first time the planetary health Alliance would, you know, give the right for a developing country to host this, this conference.

And then we, we were just natural partners and we had, we were working direct together. So we decided to have this an official center, uh, at the university of Sao Paulo in the most interdisciplinary center. And this is growing now I'm affiliated I'm founder co-founder and professor is really leading that.

Now he's a very senior professor there, so it's, it's just fascinating because it's not something, you know, that belongs to the university. Of Sao, but it's something that belongs to Brazil because we have many partners. We have people from all regions, as you know, Brazil's a very, very big country. So it's kind of really well distributed now.

And it's fascinating to, even for me, when you go to meetings, you have all different accents from Brazil. You know that sometimes you, if you'll sustain your bubble, you don't even listen to different voices. And, and if you're advocating for this diversity in decision making it. You know, it starts there.

We have to have people from different regions, so that's, it's growing and we could host successfully the. In last year. Yeah, because January, so definitely like, uh, last year, I think April, we got 5,000 people who register for this and, you know, from 130 countries. And, and because also it was the first time it would be in Brazil, but the pandemic had to be online, but we really took the opportunity to make this.

An inclusive, you know, not that a lot of people would, this conferences would be usually around 400 people and we could at least bring that to the houses of, you know, in people in hundred, 130 countries. So, and that's why the, what I like to talk about also volunteer health movement. It's a scientific thing, but also if you don't talk and people don't get excited and don't wanna do things, it's usually right.

The planetary health movement, as you know, social movement is very important as well. And I think we've worked quite well and there are now new programs of young ambassadors from different universities and they're doing things. So it's about also inspiring others to, to get to know more about the few, to apply to their, how would they think, you know, in their topic of research discuss this.

So, yeah, so very proud of that one. That's how I could help my own country. Explore the team.

And in 2020 you founded the Women Leaders for Planetary Health. So what is the mission of that organization?

Nicole: Yeah, it was so the United nations climate conference, the cop 25 December. I had it with the support of, I, I asked this organization that was in pots.

I really wanted to do something that would, I was doing so much on voluntary health, but the gender dimension was really mentioned. I wasn't hearing about it. It was just. You know, unknown issue. So, so, uh, I, I definitely the mission is we want to empower women to lead planetary health solutions in the global south, simple as that, because how many women, you know, and sustainability is very full of women, but how many women really leading solutions or, you know, receive funding to do their own thing, or that's the challenge that we have.

Right. And so I wanted to focus. On that discussion first to understand why if we empower women, what's the difference for planetary. And I mean, we're doing research on that, right. But of course there's many indications that you can accelerate the impact of sustainable development policies. If you have women empowered and able to, to take the lead and, and make a change, if you wanna like in food systems, for example, if you, you can be investing agriculture in bio things, however, if women don't have land.

You know, legally they're discriminated and they cannot produce their own things or do practices. Um, it's kind of useless. So we need to pay attention to this, to many of inequalities of inequalities, not only income, but also opportunities. And that's why I wanted to again, bring the planetary health conversation to low and middle income countries.

So I was really targeting that as part of the. That's why the first, um, round we created a digital academy, which was with the pandemic was great because everything could be digital. And it could, we, we had third more than 30 countries participating in our things. So, and, and, and very, let's say non reachable, difficult countries, you know, we had people in Palestine had people from Sudan.

We had people named Zimbabwe from Brazil, you know, in Latin America. In all these women, they all share the same problems, but also the same passion and the same solutions. You see the they're doers, you know, and the, the [00:28:00] narrative is really not to make oh, women is, I didn't create organizations to say, oh, we are suffering.

It's so difficult. They're discriminated. The point is how we empower them to, to do what they wanna do and, but have the right resources and the leadership. So we focus really on, on leadership training sessions and with, we had our wonderful Angela field who also supported us on that. And I was mostly focusing on, on this research part of planetary health.

And so we write papers and do the research as well. How climate or. Biodiversity. How does things connect to gender? Yeah. So that's how we, and it's, it's growing the UN, so it was good to also have that conversation at the UN that's, how it started. And now we are a social enterprise, you know, legal institution in Germany.

And, and that's, I'm very excited to see how this is growing. We have a team in Brazil. Now we have things growing Africa. We have things in Southeast Asia. Yeah. Very excited. That's I think how we get that's the, the passion, I think our jobs. And if you work with the policy makers, it's not always fun. Right?

They're of course politics entered in the middle. Things can be delayed and take time to, to drive change. But this is really the fun part. I think of my work, cuz you see the results and you see also the results at the personal level. You know, you have sometimes I think we underestimate how much we could help people by simple things, just, you know, supporting them with the letter.

So the mentoring part of our, we had this digital academy, but also we were pairing individuals with senior mentors. So we had a mentorship program. Targeting low middle income countries, women in low middle income countries. So, and I heard so many stories after, because at the beginning I thought, well, you know, this is not, I mean, it's not a big deal.

It's just, okay, we're helping a little bit. But when you see the later, what they tell and the things, the decisions that they took in the end, or the courage that they had to do, their own things, they really, you get surprised and you say, wow, and this is, you know, we did this and that's very rewarding.

Passionistas: Can you tell us about maybe a success story, something that you've seen come through the organization?

Nicole: Yeah, I think it, I mean, what I saw a lot was this positive. They tell stories that, oh, when I joined the program, I was, you know, I was a bit lost. I didn't know what to do or maybe careers. And they normally, they felt empowered to take the decisions that they already knew that they would do, but they felt validated somehow that that's, oh, that's I can do this.

So I heard many stories like this. If they wanna maybe start a new master's program or if they wanna change careers, if they wanna quit their toxic. You know, there were stories like this or people who they want to change industries and do more work on sustainability. I saw a lot of this and simply, and maybe at the end, I can tell another story, but don't keep it a secret.

Passionistas: So what can women who aren't kind of full-time activists in this field? What can we do on a day to day basis to have an impact on the planet?

Nicole: Yeah. So this is a very, it's a common question that we get, right? So how, of course, everybody wants to know how they can make a better place of role, but I like to call attention to, to another point, because yes, you can do your recycles.

You can eat, you know, reduce, consumption meat, normally, what is in terms of impact. If you change your diets, that's the easiest and the biggest impact you're gonna. So not so simple to do it. And especially it depends where you leave and your culture or your habit, but that's what researchers show that that's the biggest impact you can have.

If you change your diet, you have of course, more, more, less meat, less a more plants. And so there is something called plenary health diet that it doesn't say you can never eat meat, but you know, Definitely. We have to shift the quantity and the proportion of things that we are eating, as we know we're not so healthy these days.

So I would invite our, our participants to, to, you know, Google planter, health diet. That's an interesting exercise. But what I like to think about, and that's why it's, it's important also to think in this, which is also hard, but the systemic part, right. Nobody will completely change. What I'm trying to do is really how do you address the root causes of this problems that are saving?

I don't think it's our five minute, three minute or 60 seconds shower that will do that. So when we try to put the, the solutions on the shoulders of individuals only, you're not addressing the problem. You're just masking. The problem. And you're just, you know, you want to delay action because what you need to do is to change drastic.

You know, you need to change trade rules, you need to change the way supply chains you need to, it's not only one company, right. That company has thousands of companies involved in their business. So how do we do that? So I'm more interested now in, in really in. Transformative systems for sustainability.

And of course we have the UN sustainable development goals who, who addressed it. It's a very, it's a plan for development and address so many questions that they're important. But as you see there, it's very hard to disconnect one goal from the other, but many institutions they say, oh, I do, you know, SDG two or four or five.

I do gender. And what I like to say, no, if you don't do everything. A little bit, if you don't understand the connections, you're not doing much. So, which is difficult to do because obviously capacity and is limited. Time is limited. Resources are limited. We need to prioritize, use your best skills and maybe focus on what you can do best, but you need partnerships.

Nobody will do this alone. So that's why the individual quest, what can we do is yeah, you can start with your house and then maybe influencing your own family and your building and start expanding, but also try to educate yourself about these connections, because I see a lot of people. Oh, use this or consume that, but there's so many inconsistencies things, you know, they would, maybe they are young activists, but they're using Neo Polish full of chemicals for, because it's cheaper from, I don't know, another country try to understand the whole picture.

And, and I think that's the way we can have a bigger impact and on women. Right. Let me just, uh, address that. And I think because. Women need to support women. That's simple, you know, for too long, we are also trying this narrative. Oh, women are difficult. You know, today I was hearing someone, if you, since a lot of positions of power are, you know, occupied by men.

Also, if, if you're a woman you're just maybe used to kind of, let's say. Working for men or serving that, you know, the ideas of men have. And, and then if women wants to do things they're normally considered difficult or challenging, you know, this is so typical and, and it's happening every day and it's just getting tiring now.

And I think women need to stop that and help each other. To, instead of making things worse for ourselves, because we already have a lot of challenge in life. So it's, it's just not acceptable that we are also struggling with other women. So I think it just is more cohesion and support solidarity would make life for all of us so much easier.

Passionistas: Thanks for listening to The Passionistas Project Podcast in our interview with Dr. Nicole de Paula. To learn more about Women Leaders for Planetary Health's mission to empower women to lead planetary health solutions the frontlines of development in the Global South visit WLPH.org.

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Kirsten Barrie is the Founder and Owner of Verte Consulting. She has over 16 years of experience as a CFO working with large corporate brands, small businesses, marketing agencies, tech start-ups, retail/e-tail and professional service businesses. She’s passionate about effecting change of financial equality by supporting women and founders and helping them achieve their dreams.

Learn more about Kirsten.

Learn more about The Passionistas Project.

FULL TRANSCRIPT:

Kirsten Barrie

Passionistas: Hi, and welcome to the Passionistas Project Podcast, where we talk with women who are following their passions to inspire you to do the same. We're Amy and Nancy Harrington and today we're talking with Kirsten Barrie, the founder and owner of Verte Consulting. Kirsten has over 16 years of experience as a CFO, working with large corporate brands, small businesses, marketing agencies, tech startups, retail, e-tail and professional service businesses. She's passionate about affecting change of financial equality by supporting women and founders and helping them achieve their dreams. So please welcome to the show Kirsten Barrie.

Kirsten: Thank you. Thank you for having me.

Passionistas: Oh, we're so excited to talk to you about what you do and we're gonna hopefully learn a lot of things becasue we could use it.

Kirsten: I hope so. I hope everyone listening to the podcast. The takeaway is that they have a interest in their business finances. I have a goal to make finances sexy. I really want women plus founders specifically to have a good feeling when they're thinking about their finances. And when they think about the tasks that they have to do for the finances. I want women to fall in love with the process, not the outcome.

So I don't necessarily want women to be like, oh, I'm gonna be rich. Because that doesn't get any of us anywhere. What I want is getting excited about what it takes to do organizationally in order for whatever that outcome is. So if women leave this podcast with that takeaway, I'd be very excited.

Passionistas: What's the one thing you're most passionate about

Kirsten: Specifically, women founders having their own freedom, with money and their business. And that freedom comes from my belief is control and being organized. I want women to have a wonderful team, ideally, a very diverse team and creating opportunities for lots of people and feeling really great about themselves and the team feeling really great about whatever their business is that they're doing.

The result of a really well functioning business in the profit would be that the women founder, has her own personally, she's giving herself a paycheck that is comfortable for her, and she is never in a situation that she can't get out of. That's a thing that I've been in and a lot of other women I speak to have been in where even at various levels of wealth, sometimes there's a situation where domestically or just in some

other physical location, you can't get out of it because of a financial barrier. And I don't want anyone to have that. So the business owner, the team members that work in the business, I want everyone to feel like they have that freedom and that opportunity to be able to do that. I think I'm very, uh, Bernie Sanders.

I'm very much like if you have the money, pay your team as much as you possibly can. I do not believe in, oh, this role. Benchmarks for this fee and that's all you're gonna get. I'm I believe if the company's making more money, pay them more money. They're not, they're only gonna do great things with that.

So I really would love to see that and have everybody just feel good and, and their life work life balance is so much more improved. So that's what I get really passionate about.

Passionistas: And why is it so important to you to focus on women and female business owners?

Kirsten: I didn't at first, I think I'm now actually my 17th year. So I took on all clients because I I'm very excited about businesses in general. And startups we all have like a soft place in our heart for our startups. And, but what I observed over all the years was that I wasn't really bringing the same light bulb and aha moments value to my, the male clients versus the women clients.

That was one thing that. It dawned on me that I have male colleagues that could bring the same value that I'm bringing to my male clients. And I believe that there's more than enough business to go around. So why not let them work with them? I really enjoyed at the end of the day is when I go to bed at night and I would recall the conversations I had with women where they're like, oh my gosh, this male CPA, no offense, male CPAs, but I get this.

If I had a nickel for every time I heard this phrase, this male CPA, wouldn't explain this concept to me, and you've just explained it in two minutes. It's so easy. It now makes sense to me. So they spent years asking the same question to somebody and being either mansplained to, or talked down to or brushed off.

And finance is a science. It's definitely specific. It's not brain surgery. Like it definitely can be explained. It can be understood. We're not like we with small brains, like it's very, it's very tangible and very easily able to be executed. So. That really excites me. And then statistically, our wealth gap is like 32 cents to the dollar.

Um, that's not the pay gap. The pay gap is also an issue, but overall women's wealth gap. Is that in, I think statistically in the United States, that includes women that don't want wealth. So that's totally fine that they're in a, in a lifestyle where that isn't important to them, but there are plenty of us that it is important to that.

So I think that's really important. And then it gets even worse with black and Latin women, like it's cents to the dollar with the wealth gap. And again, that comes back to power and them having financial freedom and freedom to make choices in their own personal lives. And that's a really big deal to me.

So those two factors. I had an aha moment. I was in England. I was taking a walk in the park. I don't know why it came to me and I just had this moment where I thought, wait a minute. At the end of the day, I want to know that I moved the needle in the style, I helped more women CEOs, I helped those women create amazing teams and those teams did amazing things,

and I created improvement on quality of life by doing this. And I will take on male clients as long as they prove diversity and actually prove equality. They can't just say it . Um, I need actually see the proof, insane thing. Like I would never take on a female client that would be acting in an in equal way.

And unfortunately that some of those women do exist, but very rare so that I think those are the two reasons why it became really passionate to me. Yeah.

So, let's take a step back. Tell us a little bit about where you grew up and what your childhood was like. And how did you start this path to where you've ended up?

I was a child of divorced parents. I don't know if that lends itself to seeing the world a little sooner than maybe you should, like, I don't recall having much of a childhood. Like I do, I believe children should have childhoods as long as you possibly can have help them do that. I'm fairytale in that way. I think that's actually really important for people.

I did not have that. And I think that experience, led me to want to create idealistic situations because I didn't see that. And I could see the problems that were happening at quite a young age. And I thought there was love fairness in things that didn't makes sense. So I think traveling and that environment, I don't know, led to some kind of just like observations like, personality traits. I ended up meandering into boarding school and then meandering to college and then transferring colleges and then getting married, then getting divorced. I think everything built upon itself, and I grew as a human we've talked about this, off the air, but I had an acting career and worked in entertainment, wrote a little bit, produced it a little bit, loved creating art in that film performance away.

And I think that still led somehow, culminated into what I do now, which is running this business, being the spokesperson of the business. Um, I do speaking, I do these lovely podcasts. Thank you again. So, I think that that somehow all the path kind of meandered into this viewpoint and this passion of, I wanna see a change and I wanna make things better. And I feel like there is a better way to be and strive for that existence.

Passionistas: So, what did you learn during that period where you were acting and in the entertainment business that you carried forward into your more entrepreneurial career?

Kirsten: I think one of the biggest, and it's not really related to giving any financial advice, but just entrepreneurial advice is, when I used to audition, we were trained that the audition was the performance.

And not to think past that, not to think like, oh, the action. If I get this role, what will that be? But to really just focus on the audition as a moment in time. And that's your like three-minute amazing performance and you walk out of that room, usually the casting room and move on with your life is if you just did the thing and then you do that over and over and over and over again.

and, and that can wear on someone if they're constantly thinking that the outcome is the role. But if you change the outcome to be even just that, you know, three-minute experience you have with those people as the actual, like that's the product, it doesn't wear you out. I think it's very like and uplifting so I think in business, sometimes we get exhausted because we have the outcome and if we're not hitting that outcome, like I talked about the beginning. It feels horrible. So to fall in love with the process is really the most important part of it. And the outcomes will happen, but it's really the process, the habits that you develop as you're trying to get to that, that I think, keep you going.

Passionistas: So then talk about 2005, you started Verte Consulting. So what, what was the process? Why did you start it and what was the inspiration behind it?

Kirsten: Oh, I wish it was so much more romantic and sexy than the actual story. I got divorced. I was teaching yoga. I was not paying the bills. My ex-husband was hiding money. I found out later. Left me with all the bills and I, you know, was young. I was in my twenties. See, these are things that I don't want, anyone would have to go through. I thought, oh, okay I'll, you know, I'll, I'll pay my own bills. Even though I had like completely. Spent, you know, five years rearranging my life around an narcissist, which is what they do.

So yeah, not good. I didn't, I didn't know. I was so young and no one was like, I was so naive. So because I had a website design company and a design company that did photography and all this stuff, some colleagues of mine from that industry knew that I actually had done a bunch of business courses and a bunch of business training and accounting, because as an artist.

And the goal was to have acting career and everything else was just like paying its bills. I wanted to be a successful business person to run my artistic career. And I thought everyone else knew this business had business acumen. I didn't, I might like, I need to do that too. Turns out no one had business acumen and I was this like rare golden person that actually gone and, and taken myself to get educated in this way.

So these colleagues hired me to do their accounting. For 20 hours a week in their SEO business, remember the SEO companies of use exist. So they were this really high end, very expertise, high level SEO company, and they were pretty huge. And then 20 hours a week, I ran their SEO depart. And then eventually it grew so big that I turned over the SEO management, took them on as a client.

And at the time remember 2005, remember the economy in 2005? Oh, the days. So at that time I was turning away work. Businesses wanted me left and right. I basically said, Hey, I'm gonna be your outsource CFO for Monday. You could have me on Monday. You could have me on Wednesday. You could have me on Thursday.

I gave them all like a day or two of my time. And so that that's actually how I started and I just ran around from client to client. And then in between that, I ran around auditions and did performances. So it was actually really flexible and really nice that I was able to juggle all of that. I mean, it was, I did have a lot of free time, but in a week I was able to do all of that very well.

Passionistas: And so at what point did you become more of a digital nomad and, and not stay focused in Los Angeles and, and live that dream?

Kirsten: So from 2005 to 2013, I ran around Los Angeles in traffic. The farthest was, uh, I think Calabasas from Hollywood to Calabasas, do not recommend. So I ran around all over LA uh, driving the clients. For those many years exhausted. And they discovered cloud-based apps in 2013, the end of 2012, 2013. So worked from home from 2013 until your question of being, becoming a digital nomad, uh, 2018. So the sad part of it is that my dog passed away. So I realized I could go anywhere. I've been working from a home office in this beautiful town home,

I had the whole bottom floor I made at my office. It was like very professional and wonderful, but then once she passed away, I just thought, oh, I can work anywhere that there was internet. That's actually how it started, and then I started traveling and then like 18 countries later. Here I am.

Passionistas: We're Amy and Nancy Harrington. And you are listening to the Passionistas Project Podcast and our interview with Kirsten Barrie. To get your company running efficiently on cloud-based apps, so you can start leading your digital nomad dreams, visit VerteConsulting.com.

If you're enjoying this interview and would like to help us continue creating inspiring content, please consider becoming a patron by visiting the Passionistasproject.com/podcast and clicking on the patron button. Even $5 a month can help us continue our mission of inspiring women to follow their passions.

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Now here's more of our interview with Kirsten.

Tell us about some of those countries and which ones were your favorites.

Kirsten: I could ask the favorites a lot and it's hard to answer that because every country has pros and cons. Every country is for me, was related around my experience. I noticed that if my Airbnb was troublesome, my feeling for the country lowered. So are the city. So for example, everyone loves Lucerne Switzerland, but I had a really rough Airbnb. It wasn't anything. It was, although one of the first Airbnbs that was not at all like the pictures. So everything in the pictures were staged.

They had like completely different furniture and completely different everything. And then when I walked in, it was like dirty and dark and gross and like not comfortable. I ended up getting a gym membership and taking showers at the gym instead, cuz I just was so comfortable with the Airbnbs bathroom. But like Lucerne is like gorgeous.

I have photos that I go back and I look and I'm like, look at the beautiful bridge and look at the water and look at the flowers. And so it's interesting that my feelings for each place tends to be related to like my own experience. So from there, for example, I went to Grindelwald um, and I am a big hiker. So I got to hike the Alps, which is like a bucket list situation.

So I was there for like, I don't know, three weeks just hiking all the time, like working from looking at the Alps, like literally looking at the Alps, hiking in the Alps, so amazing, right. Japan was definitely one of my favorites, but I only saw the bottom island. I did, uh, hot Springs week. I hopped over from South Korea and just did a week there.

Uh, so I haven't seen the rest of Japan yet, but I don't think anyone is a bad thing to say about their visit to Japan. So I think it's usually a top list. Italy is also by one of my favorites. I've only again, seen the Northern part. I was in Chiquita, Pisa, Florence, and then lake Como or Como de Lago. I mean, the lake that I hiked, of course I hiked around there too.

The lake is like this, and then the mountains come up. So like there's the towns on the water. And then there's like up in the mountains, like all the houses, the rich people's houses. So, gosh, let's see. Yeah. I was in Africa, Europe and Asia. So all over, there are places that I didn't get to go. And they're still on my bucket list.

Things like Ireland, Wales, more of Europe. I can't see enough of Europe. It feels like definitely Japan. I did not get to go to any of Southeast Asia that was on the 2000. Let's see, what would that be? Was it 20? Was that the year of our pandemic mm-hmm , mm-hmm 2020, right. Beginning the beginning of our pandemic.

So I don't know how many of the listeners here are into vision boards, but I'm really into vision boards. And I cried when I looked up my 2020 vision board, I made it, I think it was the end of 2019. Like I always do at the end of the year for my 2020. And literally nothing, nothing. When is planned, the vision board was just like a joke and I stumbled upon it like eight months later.

And I was like, oh yeah, this thing. Yeah. So I didn't, I didn't see Southeast Asia yet. I didn't get to Australia or New Zealand yet. Those are definitely ways off. I have colleagues in New Zealand and Australia and you can't even get to New Zealand, uh, Australia. You can maybe, I think everyone saw they'll let someone in, but I think both of those are pretty like business only.

You've done like special. Yeah. You know what I haven't visited is Canada. It doesn't feel exotic to me. Right. It's just like there . So it's funny. It is a different country, but like it's not on my bucket list. I mean, ban would be, but like generally speaking, I don't think of Canada, something I would like go live at.

Whereas these other countries actually go and I live and I work out of usually an Airbnb or I find like a local apartment to lease for three. And also just to point out, I love helping other people. If they wanna do a digital nomad work lifestyle, I love answering questions on that. So anyone can always reach out to me on those questions as well.

Passionistas: Well, let's talk about that. Let's talk about that's one thing you do to help people, but what are some of the other services that you provide?

Kirsten: So the main services at the company is the monthly recurring one on one CFO services. So those are businesses that are usually 500,000 to 5 million, usually 100, 1 million to 5 million annual revenue, and they need CFO services.

They need payroll, accounting, forecasting, budgeting, finance models, just general help. I make sure that they don't make huge MIS. I don't control the money of any business, but I am their devil's advocate. I will say, no. Keep outsourcing your dev team, do not hire an in-house dev team here is why. And I will break it down for them and they will see the light.

I, once I give 'em the right information, they always make the right financial choices. It's just that they don't know. For example, like a lot of business owners don't realize when you hire someone in a different state, you are then paying payroll taxes in that state and it gets extra complicated. In each state you add on, you get a whole bunch of extra complication for payroll. So also subcontractors versus employees, making sure that's sorted out. It's all these like little intricate things that can eat away at a company's profit. Those are the main bread and butter of the company. Is these one-on-one out. CFO services.

And it's usually about five, 10% of the gross revenue of a company, which should be the minimum one pays for, for the accounting. I cannot stress that enough. do not go cheap on your accounting with my company, with anybody. It just will not serve you. And then I'm working on a beta that I'm about to release.

I had released it right before the pandemic and then paused it and pulled it. And was like, okay, this, this isn't gonna work. taking another stab at a do it yourself finance course, and that is for the, the startups, the solo pioneers, the under 500,000 businesses that really don't have the budget or the activity to hire someone like an outsource CFO.

But what I don't wanna see is, and this happens a lot businesses outsourcing to a entry level bookkeeper that may be detrimental. This happens more than not. And I don't really know if it's. The bookkeepers. I get the sense from all the years of doing this, that someone will have done some accounting in a business, and then they'll call themselves a bookkeeper later and go and try to outsource themselves as a bookkeeper, but they actually don't have any accounting knowledge.

So what that does is that's detrimental to the business tax wise organization, wise planning wise, it just isn't good. So this course is gonna give the big picture and how it relates to the small picture to a business owner and why they wanna do certain. Smaller steps and habits because of the big picture.

And I'm hoping that will enlighten people to not just use a bookkeeper that only maybe is working on the small picture and working on the small picture incorrectly, which is what I commonly see. Uh, because it goes. You know, your daily activity to like your monthly and annual activity to your filing your taxes.

That's kind of the sequence of small to big picture. Um, so that course is coming soon. If you're interested in joining the beta, um, we'll have my contact information at the end of the podcast and please reach out and I will see if you're a good fit for the beta. And then if not, we'll get released in the summer as a full course.

And then I'm adding, helping companies, getting over the finishing line for equity and fundraising. So it's gonna be a service that is kind of like low key being done right now for some clients, but it will start to be added on as a service. And then the five-year plan is to get some specific CFOs for the 5,000,00 and 1 to 5 million and more businesses that are going to go public.

So we'll have CFO services down the road for those larger companies, cuz that's a whole different ballgame and there's a lot of requirements, industry requirements that would need to be done for that. So that'll be down the road, but the idea is that going forward, there will be services from the person starting their business all the way to taking to public and specifically women plus founders. So that should. Give a lift to this industry.

Passionistas: So now you also offer on your site a free business plan template. So talk about that aspect of the business. You, you mainly just deal with financial stuff for you or clients, but why is it so important for a startup to put a business plan together?

Kirsten: Beginning business, won't be able to fill out every section of that. But what I like about this is that they can look at what they do need to research. So I have a little bit of like a drip email campaign that gives recommendations, you know, put this on your to-do list for this week. Like this one section go and research sections of the swot analysis or go and research.

Like, do you have a regional market or a national market? I think all those things are important for the business to, to start to think with they, most of the businesses, it might take a year, or more, I think to answer each one of these questions, but it'll get those juices flowing. It'll get them thinking about it.

And then in turn, the part that I focus on is the finances. They should come to me and do some sessions to get the finance part organized. And I can tell them how to do that because it usually takes a couple steps of organization before you could spit out those numbers, that are in the business plan, but those numbers are important for so many reasons.

If they're needing to make sure they have enough cash to keep running, I really believe. Money is a commodity as much as possible. You should use money to make more money. Money is not like a finite thing where like you make it at the end of that. And it just pays us what the businesses need to do is obviously we need to do payroll there's expenses that, you know, aren't commodity, but generally speaking, we need to take that money and figure out how to scale and grow that business in order to do that.

The financial sections in the business plan need to get filled out. And that's where I come in and help them. But I do really believe that whole, the whole business plan is beneficial. And I will, while I won't be an expert in those areas with my clients, I do coach a little bit outside of finances for every client, because I care about their business.

I'm their team member. Like I want their business to grow because it means everyone is happy. What's your definition of success? I think it changes. I think part of it is financial freedom and that vision of like being healthy at an older age and doing what you want I'm of the generation that doesn't have the pension doesn't have like amazing savings and 401k plans.

And I just, that boat missed me. So I'm trying to do catch up work now. It's not fun. So. I wanna be healthy so that I could work until my last days. I personally don't wanna just like retire and do nothing. That to me would be the opposite of success for me. I know that's a lot of my that's my parents' generation success.

That's what they're doing right now. But I would rather that I have the flexibility to do whatever it is that I'm doing. And it pays for my lifestyle, whatever that is and keeps me happy. I'm not like forced to work and I'm not. Uh, so unhealthy that I can't work. So, and then the other part of that is seeing other people succeed, that if I had a hand in someone else succeeding, that I think makes me feel.

Like I was of service. Like there's that mantra, like be of service, like that is really our job. We're put here on this planet to be of service to others. So, and that can go in all different ways. Like sometimes being of service may seem, but look, the person might seem like they're self-involved, but that's not always the case, like artists and musicians, they're being of service to the world.

Even, it might seem like they're doing it for themselves. So I think, yeah, those are like my two ways that I swing back and forth, like my own personal. Future versus what am I doing in the world right now?

Passionistas: What advice would you give to a young woman who wants to follow her passions?

Kirsten: Have a sugar daddy, just kidding. Just kidding. do not do that. I met many of those in LA. I was always in awe of those women. I met so many of them and they're like, I have a sugar daddy and they'd explain to me the details. And I was just like, my eyeballs would open up. Right? Like I was [00:28:00] divorced and left penniless. And so here's this like women that's like only having sex with, as the rent is paid.

And I just was like, I can't, I can't. No. So seriously ladies and everyone. if you have a passion, be flexible in what that Passionistas. For example, in my twenties, I never thought I'd be running a finance company. Like that sounds horrible and boring. That's not, that's not something you're passionate about running a finance company, but I am passionate about making the difference for other women and having climbed a mountain that hopefully.

They won't have to climb it because I did already. And I'm trying to help them steer around this mountain, avoid the mountain. That is exciting. So I'm able to, to feel fulfilled through this avenue. Um, and it gives me ability to do other avenue. I do art in my free time. I'm writing a book, I'm creating this course.

There's all these things that I can do because I have this course, sorry, because I have this business. So if you have a passion are like, um, a clothing designer. And you're like, this will make me happy to make these clothes and you do it and you succeed, go for it. But if you run into so many roadblocks that you can't seem to get success with that find a way to whatever the joy is about that fashion designing, find a way to get that out in the world. Maybe it's like doing large murals, like somehow you just fall into mural making instead of clothing making. And, but you're still getting. Art in the world, you're still making people smile. You're still making this city prettier, whatever it is that like makes you excited of being a fashion designer.

So I think that falls back into like, there's the whole lean business canvas concept, where you have an idea of what you wanna do and you test it out as minimal as possible. And if it doesn't hit. It doesn't hit. No one buys your thing. No, one's gonna buy your thing. There's nothing, you can't force it down.

People's throats. So as a business owner, you have to check your ego and be like, okay, let's adjust the thing I'm putting out there. And then you see if it hits. And if that doesn't hit you go back and you iterate big keyword here, you fix it again. You set it out into the world and be like, does this hit?

So I think you kind have to do that with your passion. I think if you set your site too much on the outcome, and that is. The only key to your own happiness, you will forever be unhappy. So you can't put your key to your happiness in this like external thing you need to find. And I think this takes a lot of soul searching. What is it that you're, what's the core why? Simon, Sinex of why you're doing that. And you can maybe find various ways to get that out into the.

Passionistas: Thanks for listening to our interview with Kirsten Barrie to get your company running efficiently on cloud-based apps, so you can start leading your digital nomad dreams visit VerteConsulting.com.

Please visit the PassionistasProject.com to learn more about our podcast and subscription box filled with products made by women owned businesses and female artisans. To inspire you to follow your passions. Double your first box when you sign up for a one-year subscription.

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Lisa Thompson is a Mountaineer, cancer survivor, and sought-after speaker and coach. She worked for 25 years as an engineer and in leadership roles at technology companies. In 2008, she began climbing and has summited most of the most challenging mountains in the world, including Mount Everest and K2. She's completed the seven summits reaching the top of the highest peak of each of the seven continents. Through her company, Alpine Athletics, and other platforms, Lisa shares her message of strength and resilience with corporate and private groups worldwide. She is also the author of “Finding Elevation” which chronicles her path from novice climber to world class mountain.

Learn more about Lisa.

Learn more about The Passionistas Project.

Full Transcript:

Passionistas: Hi, and welcome to the Passionistas Project Podcast, where we talk with women who are following their Passionistas to inspire you to do the same. We're Amy and Nancy Harrington and today we're talking with Lisa Thompson, a mountaineer, cancer survivor and sought-after speaker and coach. Lisa worked for 25 years as an engineer and in leadership roles at technology companies.

In 2008, she began climbing and has summited most of the most challenging mountains in the world, including Mount Everest and K2. She's completed the seven summits reaching the top of the highest peak of each of the seven continents. Through her company, Alpine Athletics and other platforms. Lisa shares her message of strength and resilience with corporate and private groups worldwide.

She is also the author of “Finding Elevation,” which chronicles Thompson's path from novice climber to world class mountain. So please welcome to the show. Lisa Thompson.

Lisa: Great to be here. Thanks for having me today.

Passionistas: We're really excited to have you here and hear your story. And, uh, we always like to start with the question. What's the one thing you're most passionate about?

Lisa: Right now, I think this has changed over the years. I'm sure that's just the normal progression of a life, but right now I am most passionate about giving back to. Women in the communities that I love communities in Nepal and in Pakistan where I've, you know, really feel at home in the mountains and have spent a lot of time and have great memories there.

And it's important to me to give back to those communities, especially the women. I recently started a nonprofit to support women in Nepal and specifically to support their education. It was shocking to me to learn that something like 58% of women in Nepal over the age of 15 have had. Zero education, none at all, which is just, you know, alarming on many levels.

But in one regard, they're really the center of a Nepalese family and community. And the fact that there's been no formal education for so many of those women just felt like something that was, that I wanted to impact in a positive way.

Passionistas: Where did you grow up and what was your childhood like? Were you always interested in, in, uh, climbing and being outdoors?

Lisa: So I grew up in the great mountaineering state of Illinois, where the highest point I believe is 120 feet. And it's so predominant that it actually has a name. Whereas in most states, if that elevation would not be named, so I didn't grow up. Aspiring to be a Mountaineer. I didn't grow up learning or reading about, you know, sir, Edmond Hillary or other sort of pioneering mountaineers.

And I wasn't even really that athletic, you know, looking back, I grew up in a small farming community, uh, called Lincoln in the very center of Illinois. You know, every kid sort of makes the, the softball team or the volleyball team. I think there were a couple years where I did not even make it. I was so uncoordinated and unathletic a and I didn't grow up really with parents who pushed me to Excel.

You know, I think part of their sort of distance is what motivated me to prove myself and to, you know, you know, back then it was about getting their attention. Lots of time in therapy talking about that. But one of the positives of that I've realized is that it pushed me to really want to Excel and to push myself mentally and physically.

And that translated first, you know, I'm still by my account, but only person in my entire extended family to graduate from college, which is sort of sad, you know, to me, but it pushed me to do things that were unexpected. In my community and with my family. And so, you know, going to college was sort of the first step in that direction.

I studied engineering, you know, not because I was super interested in it, but because I felt like that seems hard and I can probably make a decent salary when I graduate. And so I was fortunate to get a job with Hewlett Packard right out of college as an engineer, then it was, you know, that was the mid-nineties.

I was the only woman at my level. And that taught me a lot. I was certainly not prepared coming from. You know, a very sort of hardworking farming-oriented family. I was not equipped to be thrown into a corporate environment at that age. I was 24. And so there was a lot of sort of flailing and trying to understand dynamics and politics.

And I was often the youngest person in the room, the only female in the room. And. Upon reflection. Um, there were definitely some missteps, some things that I just, frankly didn't understand, cuz I was ill-equipped to be in that kind of environment. But one very positive thing that came of that was that through that job, I eventually moved to Seattle, which is where I live today.

And here. You know, mountaineering, we're fortunate to be surrounded by the Cascade mountains and the Olympic mountain range. So climbing and mountaineering and just being in the mountains is really part of the culture in Seattle. When I moved here, uh, for that job still with, you know, it wasn't any longer with Hewlett Packard, but it was a derivation of that company.

All the men at my level would go climbing on the weekend. And so I had no idea, right? I no, like I'd maybe been camping with my family, but I didn't like know anything about mountaineering. I didn't know what a crampon was. I had no idea the equipment, the gear, the, the, you know, the sort of aesthetic of climbing, nothing.

But these men, you know, would go out on the weekends and they would come back to the office on Monday and they had all. You know, incredible stories. And again, it wasn't that I aspired to be in the mountains, but I aspired to be a part of their group. And I wanted them so badly to see me, the only woman on their team as capable and strong.

And I wasn't getting that in the office environment. So this seemed like a way to do that. And instead of doing the totally logical thing, which would've been to say. Like oh, climbing. That sounds really cool. Can I come with you or can you tell me more about it? I just got frustrated. I got mad and eventually just decided I was gonna go climb my own damn mountains.

And I had no, I again had no idea what that meant, but I started really just hiking around my house in the cascades. And then eventually in 2008, I attempted Mount Rainier, which is the highest mountain in Washington. And after that I was, I was just hooked spite no spite I was hooked at that.

Passionistas: Do they know what you've accomplished since then?

Lisa: I've lost track of them. I could probably, you know, through a network, get back to them, but I don't, I don't know. Probably not and they probably don't even, you know, these weren't bad guys at all. It just, I think didn't occur to them to ask me to join. And so they probably would have no reason to wonder like, Hey, I wonder if that girl ever climbed any mountains.

Passionistas: You started to do this as, you know, a recreational activity, but then at some point that obviously shifted and you started to set these goals for yourself. So what inspired you to climb Mount Rainier and then to take it further from there?

Lisa: Yeah, there was something about, so I didn't summit Rainier. My first attempt, the weather sort of turned bad on our second day and retreated. And, and I was relieved in that moment. I was happy cuz I just, I. Again, no idea what I was doing. Although I was with, you know, I was with a guide company and I was safe and all that, but I really just mentally wasn't prepared to be on a mountain and to just feel sort of the vastness of that challenge.

And so I went back the next year before I got back to the parking lot in 2008, I was sure I was coming back. I tend to look at climbs like projects. And so even after that first year, I was like, okay, these are, you know, my backpack needs to be lighter. I need to have, you know, not red boots and have my own boots and just little things like that, that I started to like to learn and to, to tweak and adjust what I knew and my gear and my knowledge of the mountain.

So I went back in 2009 and summited, and there was a moment, you know, where I sort of it's dark out and you're, you know, you can't really. Appreciate where you're at on the mountain and the sort of vastness of everything around you and the risk of falling. And because all you can see in the dark is just this little tiny circle of light from your headlamp.

And so there was a moment where I remember looking what would've been east and seeing the sun just slowly start to split the horizon from the earth and. Just seeing like colors that were so magnificent and awe inspiring and thinking. This is an incredible experience and such a, a daunting place to be that taught me so much, so much humility to be learned in the mountains.

When I got to the summit, I just had this incredible sense of accomplishment that I hadn't found anywhere else. I hadn't really gotten it from my parents as a kid. I hadn't gotten it at work. I, you know, graduated from college, any accomplishment I had had in my life until that point hadn't made me feel that way.

And I loved that. I still love that climbing is. Obviously a very physical pursuit, but there is an enormous mental challenge that comes with climbing, you know, in any discipline of climbing. And I really loved that combination and I loved the idea of setting. Lofty goal and working hard and accomplishing it.

And so I was completely hooked at that point. In two, I was 2009 and ready to just, I did, again, didn't know a lot about what to climb next, but I was sure that I was gonna keep doing it.

Passionistas: You know, you were kind of inspired to do it by this being in this male dominated world. When you got to climbing, were there a lot of other women who were in doing what you were doing?

Lisa” No. In fact, I, in the beginning was gonna name my book, the only girl, and it has changed. This is, you know, the late 2000s. It is getting better. You know, there's more diversity that the only, and first all black team summited Everest last month, which is incredible to see. And I was fortunate to play a small role in coaching them.

So it's changing the dynamics, the face of, of people who enjoy the mountains is changing. But then I was. I don't always is maybe a strong word, but 95% of the time, I was the only woman on the team. And, you know, I was used to being in male dominated arenas, so that wasn't unusual for me, but I think it, you know, being an intense environment like climbing, just sort of heightened all of the challenges that come with that and made them much more potent.

And it took me a long time to realize. Or to think about how I showed up in those roles. There was always the, like people doubted and people would say, oh, it's cute. I think you're gonna climb Mount Everest. That's a whole other conversation, but what I tended to think about myself and how I showed up in those situations.

And at first I would just be one of the guys, I mean, so much so that they would undress in front of me and not even like, consider that there was a woman standing next to them. On Everest was the first time that I, that just didn't feel authentic to me anymore. It didn't feel right to laugh at crew. That were often, you know, demeaning to women.

It didn't feel right to overlook little comments that just didn't sit well with me anymore. And so that was the first time. And there's a moment. And I talk about it in my book where I, you know, all men and I sort of separated myself from them for a minute because it just, I needed to feel like a woman and I needed to feel like myself in that environment.

And, you know, at the time it. We're sort of arguing back and forth about my opinion about something versus theirs. But I realize now that it was me sort of stepping into my own strength and my own sort of persona as a woman and saying like this isn't okay anymore. And I'm not gonna just, you know, sit here and let it happen without saying anything.

It's still challenging. It's getting better. But yeah, there were a lot of moments there just being, the only woman was a challenge for me.

Passionistas: Do you think there are certain qualities that you, as a woman bring to a climb that's different than the male energy of a, of a climb?

Lisa: And again, generalizing. Right. But I, I'm fortunate now that I get to coach mountaineers and I coach men and women.

Um, and I, you know, I can see those nuances, even as I'm coaching them, women are much more interested in like the mental side. Of taking on a challenge, like a big mountain and making sure that they're very well rounded in their preparations. They wanna make sure that they're understanding the route. You know, they know where the challenges will be and that mentally they have the tools to get through them.

And men generally, again, not always the case, but often just like they wanna like train and work hard and do all the runs and all the hikes and all the preparation climbs. And don't often sort of step back and say, There's a whole other side of this. There's a whole other, you know, facet to climbing big mountains.

And, you know, my experience is that when you look at everything holistically is when you're the most prepared and when you're the most successful. And I think even on the mountains, you know, it's tough, there's difficult situations. And I find that women often add just a little bit more compassion to those situations.

A little bit more empathy. and sometimes that's what you need to get through something that's difficult. So there's my experience. Yeah. There's a big difference between what men and women bring to those situations.

Passionistas: So you, you have the successful Mount Rainier climb in 2009. What happens next? And how do you kind of plan where you go next?

Lisa: Yeah, so I didn't do a lot of planning. I just knew, I knew I wanted to keep climbing more challenging things and there's, you know, back in the eighties, I believe it was a couple of mountaineers society. It would be really cool to climb to the highest peak of every single continent. And so I thought, okay, I'll just start doing that.

You know, I don't know what to do. I picked the easiest, one of those, which was in Russia, a Mount called Elbrus and was successful there. So I thought, okay, well, Keep sort of on that track and climbing in the cascades as well, sort of, you know, like thinking, okay, I wanna be more independent and learn different skills, like building anchors and self-arrest and rope management.

And so I, I would take excursions on the weekends locally to do those things. And then about once a year I would climb something big somewhere else in the world. And I was on that track and I had sort of decided. Mount Everest was kind of the next logical thing for me to climb just in terms of skill and difficulty.

And at the time I felt like, oh, Everest is so commercial and there must be more interesting mountains in the Himalaya to climb. And so I had decided, and this really is a big moment. I think, in any mountaineers' career I had decided I was ready to climb in the Himalaya. So, you know, the Himalaya is this huge mountain range that bisects Asia and.

It's special for a lot of reasons, but one is that. Most of the highest mountains in the world are there. And when we say high, in terms of mountaineering, we're talking about any mountain that's higher than 26,000 feet or 8,000 meters. And there's only 14 of those in the world. And so I, in 2015 thought, okay, I think I'm ready.

Like I'm ready to try an easy one and just see how it goes. So. I picked that mountain, which is called Montes SL. And I was just beginning to prepare for it when I was diagnosed with cancer, you know, we, we've already established that. I'm a very stubborn person and I was a little cocky, you know, I was 42 years old.

I thought and, and an athlete, like I ate organic vegetables. I wore my seatbelt. I floss my teeth. Like I, all those things that you are, you are taught to believe will keep you healthy. I thought I was doing it turns out I had a tremendous amount of stress in my job, which is, you know, like looking back and sort of analyzing how my body could get reacted that way to an external thing. It probably was a lot of stress at work, but nonetheless, I was diagnosed with breast cancer at the beginning of 2015. I was determined. Not to let cancer dictate my priorities so much so that I sat with my surgeon and said like, is there any way we could just postpone this whole cancer thing?

Like, can we just like, how much could those tumors really grow in eight months? Like I just go do this climb and I'll come back and then you can do whatever you want with my body. When I get back and she very compassionately said that that would be a full hearty decision. I always remember that she used that word.

And so I was very fortunate that I was able to get rid of the tumors in my, uh, breast with a bilateral mastectomy from which I did at the beginning in April of 2015. And I was, I mean, determination. Isn't a big enough word for how focused I was on getting my body ready to still travel to Nepal and attempt Montes SL.

That autumn. And so I went, um, I was not, I was not a hundred percent. I had all, you know, all my doctors, all my care, healthcare providers knew what I was up to. They all thought I was a little bit crazy, but I had their support to be there. And. You know, their cell phone numbers, if anything went weird. And luckily it didn't, I didn't summit Manaslu in 2015, there was an avalanche above our camp.

And, you know, the team felt that it just wasn't safe to continue. So we all turned around and I, I firmly believe that mountains and, you know, nature teaches us things. And so. When I got home, I, you know, I just sort of did some reflection about that climb. And I think sometimes you learn the most when you're not successful when you don't summit.

But I realized that, you know, life is so fragile and that it's up to us. Each of us to define the lives that we will live. And so I became determined then to sort of reprioritize my life. My pause, my corporate career actually got a divorce and I decided to climb Mount Everest at that point. And, uh, went back to Nepal in 2016 to do that.

Passionistas: So talk about that. Talk about preparing for that and you know, and the mental preparation, especially.

Lisa: I learned a lot on Monte SL again, you know, success doesn't always mean you, you gain the most from a situation. And so I learned what my body was capable of. I knew that if I was healthy and trained, that I could be even stronger.

And so I, I started working with a sports psychologist to really dig into the mental aspects. I was still a little bit unsure about what my body could do, you know, I, I, and I had. Probably four more surgeries before I went to Everest for reconstruction. So I depended a lot on a sports psychologist to just help me understand why Everest was important to me, what my body was capable of.

To give me some really important tools that I use still today when things get difficult in the mountains to have something to focus on and to sort of rationalize what's going on around me and break it down into manageable chunks. So that was hugely helpful. I worked with a, a climbing coach as well to get me ready.

You know, it was a very tumultuous time in my life as I was preparing to climb the most difficult mountain that I had climbed to that point. I was in the middle of getting a divorce. I wasn't sure I wanted to keep working. My dog died. Like all these, just so many things happened and looking back. It felt like just a really big reset, like the universe sort of saying, like, you know, that was your life then before cancer, and this is your chance to find your life after cancer.

You know, that really is a big gift. I always think that cancer, I am grateful today in the moment I was not, but today I'm grateful for cancer because it showed me so many things about priorities and what life is about and how I want to spend it. I know that there's a book worth of conversation to be had, if not more about actually climbing Mount Everest, but kind of in general, what was the experience like?

Passionistas: What was the biggest challenge that you faced in, in the midst of that experience?

Lisa: Yeah, so climbing a big mountain, like Everest, I'll just provide a quick sort of background as to how it even. You know, it's, those mountains are so big, right? Your, your body could not possibly function. Even if you're breathing supplemental oxygen.

It's not as easy as just walking to base camp and then starting to climb. There's a whole process of a climatization. Where you start at one camp climb to the next highest camp and then return to that first camp. And then you repeat that process gradually moving up the mountain, and that allows your body to change physiologically, to build more red blood cells so that you can survive at those higher elevations.

And so for me on Everest as I was going through that process, I really felt in sync with the mountain in contrast to K2, which I'm sure we'll talk about in a little bit, but I really felt like things just went smoothly. I felt like the mountain and I were working together and that we sort of [00:23:00] shared a level of respect.

That, you know, ultimately ultimately allowed me to be successful, but that doesn't mean there weren't difficult moments. I recall climbing from camp three to camp four and it had been very, very windy. So, you know, hadn't slept at all the night before was lying in a very cramped tent. That was my side of the tent was actually can levered over the side of the mountain because it, you know, it was so steep.

And, you know, a lot of emotional, like, is it too windy? You know, are we gonna have a chance to summit? We need to descend. And then it's a very quick decision by our team to like, we look, it looks like we have a window. We're gonna go up. I had sort of envisioned like having this moment to like get ready.

And that was none of that. It was very rushed and harried and chaotic. And I, I walk out of the tent and I clip into the fixed rope with my, with my harness. and it was so incredibly windy that it kept blowing me over. And I remember these moments of just hearing the wind coming towards me from my left side, and then just lying face down on the ice to let it pass me by before I could continue.

And that luckily subsided after, I don't know, a couple of hours or something. And, and then. I got to what I knew was gonna be the easiest part of that day, which is sort of a flat section that curves to the left towards a rock feature called the yellow band. And the yellow band is about 25 degrees. So it's not super steep. It's limestone.

It would actually be fun to climb it at sea level, but as I'm walking towards it, I realize that I'm moving so slow and I'm actually. Like I get distracted by someone's glove, rolling down the ice. And my friend came up from behind me is like, what, you know, what do you what's going on? And I was like, I don't know.

I just, I just wanna like lay down and I had run out of oxygen. So my brain and my, my muscles were not getting the oxygen that they needed to continue. I had a couple, I had a decision to make, I had a few choices in that moment. I could have turned around and gone back to camp three and said, you know, my climbs over or looked for more oxygen.

I could have sat there in the snow and asked someone, probably a Sherpa to bring me more oxygen where I could have kept going. And. Those first two options just didn't feel right to me. And so I continued climbing. I will never forget. So climbing this relatively, you know, at sea level, easy section of rock and telling myself to just focus on the climber ahead of me and to never let him outta my sight, like just, he's not gonna get outta my site no matter what it takes.

And I don't know how long it took me. I, you know, everything got really fuzzy at that moment. And I was still safe. I still had people around me and people knew that I didn't have oxygen, but I, that made that situation made me realize that we are so much stronger mentally than we believe or that, that we give ourselves credit for, because my body was literally like, it didn't have the gas that needed to continue.

And it was just, I think my mind is pushing me, just willing myself forward to get through that situation. And the best feeling in the world. Like I hope nobody has to experience that, but I can't tell you how sweet it is to not have oxygen and have oxygen. Like, as soon as I got a fresh bottle, it was like, the world was right again.

So a challenging moment. But like I said, I think mountains teach us things and you know, it taught me that I sort of have this untapped tool in my, you know, mental capacity that I really. You know, even now I feel like there's so much more potential to hone that skill of being mentally strong.

Passionistas: We're Amy and Nancy Harrington and you’re listening to the Passionistas Project Podcast in our interview with Lisa Thompson. To learn more about her adventures and get a copy of her book, “Finding Elevation,” visit Lisaclimbs.com.

We'd like to take a moment to share a special announce. We'll be hosting the third annual Power of Passionistas Summit, this September 21st through September 23rd, 2022. The three-day virtual event is focused on authentic conversations about diversity, equity and inclusion. This unique gathering of intersectional storytellers and panelists harnesses the power of our rich community of passionate thought leaders and activists to pose solutions to the problems plaguing women today.

Early bird tickets are on sale now at bit.ly/2022PowerofPassionistasTickets.

We'd like to thank our sponsors — Melanie Childers, Natural Born Rebel, The Ossa Collective, Tea Drops, Aaron's Coffee Corner, Flourishing Over Fifty, Edith Espanola, Mermaid's Garden, Sara Fins Coaching, and Tara McCann Wellness.

Now here's more of our interview with Lisa.

That process of getting in tune with the mountain and going back and forth to the different camps. How long does that take?

Lisa: It takes about a month, maybe six weeks. It just depends on weather and how fast people are moving People climbing in sort of the standard style climbing, big mountains and 8,000 meter peaks. Usually it takes about six weeks to, to two months to, to do that. So it's a long time.

Passionistas: In 2017, you actually won an Emmy for something related to the Everest climb.

Lisa: Right? So we, so this is totally serendipitous. So the expedition leader is named Garrett Madison He had endeavored to capture our climb in virtual reality, you know, technology has changed a lot since 2016. And so the way we did it was to strap all these GoPros sort of in a sphere and then carry that on a wand up the mountain and thereby, you know, create this 360 degree view. Of our climb. And then later some very smart people stitched that together and actually made it a virtual reality film, which is called capturing Everest.

And, you know, I didn't know that was gonna happen when I signed up for that climb. There were, you know, a lot of. Sort of deals made and, and it just happened to be purchased by sports illustrated, um, and turned into this really cool documentary that later won an Emmy, not for my acting prowess, surprisingly, but for just the technology.

It was the first time that anyone had captured virtual reality footage in that kind of an environment. You can find it on the sports illustrated website and on their app. And it's really, it's really fun if even if you don't have a headset, you can watch it in 360-degree video with your phone. And I will tell you, it will make you dizzy.

Like even me having been there, it is very, very real to watch people, you know, climbing or walking across the ladder or climbing a steep part of, of the, the mountain. So I feel. You know, never in my life, if you've said like you could win an Emmy, I would like never thought that. So it was a really, really cool experience and cool to be able to just share that in a very tangible way, with cool technology, to people who, you know, may never endeavor to climb. But now get to have a little bit of a taste of what it's like.

Passionistas: So that same year in 2017, you, um, became the first all American women to summit K2. So how did that differ from climbing Mount Everest and what unique challenges did you face on that?

Lisa: Yeah. So it was 2017. I, I endeavored to go to K2 for the first time. My team actually fell apart. And so I didn't climb that mountain that year. I went back in 2018 and in 2017, the first American woman did summit. And I felt like, you know, I, I, this is still an important climb for me. It's something. I think being the first is very cool. I think not being the only is even cooler.

And so it was important to me to just sort of continue showing what women could do in the mountains. So K2 is the second highest mountain in the world. It's about 800 feet shorter than Mount Everest. K2 is in Pakistan. It's on the border between China and Pakistan. Most people, like if I'm at a dinner party and you know, someone finds out that I've climbed Everest, they get super excited and they wanna know what that's like, and I'll say, yeah, but I climbed this other mountain called K2, which is actually like really, really hard.

And they're like, yeah. But tell me about Everest. Did you see any dead people? So most people don't even know. You know, not even heard of K2, it's in a much more remote part of the world. For example, you know, the, the walk to Everest space camp is, you know, in a lovely valley, there are tea houses. There are commercial helicopters.

There is an emergency room at Everest space camp. There is none of that. In the Karakoram mountain range in Pakistan, you are farther from any kind of definitive medical care that you'll probably ever be in your life. And that, you know, would involve a Pakistani army helicopter ride to a small hospital in a remote village.

So it's, it's much more remote. The weather on K2 is also much more fickle. So it's, you know, known for just monster storms that sort of whip out of nowhere, dump a lot of snow. Cause avalanches. K2 is also steep from like the second you leave base camp. It is just unrelentingly steep and it is also known for a lot of rock fall.

So you can imagine that my family was super excited to hear about me. Deciding to climb this mountain, I had just, you know, beat cancer. My father was diagnosed with cancer when I was climbing Mount Everest and, and died about a month after I got home. And so I sort of promised him that K2 would be the last, really dangerous mountain that I climbed.

I was very determined to give it a go in 2018. And, and I was so fortunate that. Everything aligned, you know, the, I had a great team, the weather was decent and we were able to make it work. And, and, you know, and I mentioned earlier that I felt very in sync with Mount Everest and on K2. I felt every day like that mountain was trying to kill me, you know, in the form of rock falls in the form of other climbers dying.

I just never really felt like I was in sync with that mountain. And there was a moment where again, climbing steep rock much steeper than the rock I describe on Everest. It's a section of the route called the Black Pyramid and it's at 25,000. And so in this moment I'm wearing a down suit. I'm actually breathing bottled oxygen because the climbing is so difficult and I'm attached to a rope.

And that section of the mountain is sort of really like chunky, just unstable rock and there's snow and ice. And I wanted to quit. Like I wanted to just turn around. I fantasized about like reversing my direction on the rope and I thought I could be. Back at base camp in a couple of days, and I could get a helicopter to Islamabad and I could take a proper shower and like eat, you know, I'd really just let, like all the things my sports psychologist told me not to do.

I just really let that real like play out. I wanted to turn around and I remember, you know, from somewhere there was a voice in my head that said, is this all you were capable of? And I realized that it was not all that I was capable of, that I was, you know, I was frustrated and I was tired and I was mad at myself, but I was capable of more.

And so I kept just. Putting one hand above the other one foot above the other. And I knew that would be the hardest point in the mountain. And once I got past that, you know, the, the rocks were relented and it was more snow, which is my comfort zone, but there were many, many moments where I wanted to quit.

So then what did that moment feel like when you finally reached the. So I remember climbing. So a couple days after that scene that I described with the Black Pyramid and we attempted the summit and, you know, the night before the summit, you're sort of, you're laying, I was laying in a tent with two other men in the middle position wearing my down suit boots.

Like you don't really sleep. You just sort of lay there for a few hours, like waiting and breathing bottle oxygen. I had this sort of like checklist in my mind of like making sure that I had food in the right places, on my, down, in my down suit that I had like turned on my GPS device, like going through all those sort of pre-flight checklist things.

And then we, we left for the summit and it's dark out and I knew the climbing initially would not be. The steepest part. I knew it would be a little bit chill for a bit, and then it was gonna get steeper. And I had, you know, that sort of pre-flight checklist. I had put new batteries in my headlamp. And as I'm climbing, I realize that the batteries are about are dying.

They're dimmer than everyone else is. And I say, I'm fine. I have a, I have a spare set. It's close to my body. So they're not frozen. I stop, you know, with thick gloves, like fumble around, finally get the batteries in there. Good. Keep climbing, catch up with my team. And it happens again. And I don't have a spare and I can't expect anybody else to give me their spare.

They're sort of, you know, they're sort of ethic and climbing that. You need to be self-sufficient up there. You can't rely on anybody else. And so I remember screaming at the guy in front of me, Rob Smith, a fantastic guy from Ireland, and he gave me his spare batteries. You know, it's very delicate exchange, right?

If you can imagine we're in these thick gloves, we're on the side of a mountain, it's dark. And I just remember him like pushing that battery into the palm of my glove. And I remember thinking if you dropped this, that's it. The reason it was, I mean, obviously it was important to see, but we were about to cross, what's called the bottleneck traverse on K2, which is, you know, it's actually flat, but it's about, it's less than one boot width.

And so you're walking and there's like two miles of air beneath you. And so you cannot make a mistake there. You obviously cannot have compromised vision there. And so literally without Rob's help, I would not have. I wouldn't have made it. And that moment, you know, several hours later, I got to the summit and I remember it was it's light out now and I'm climbing by myself and it's, it's very, um, unconsolidated snow.

So I'm sort of take one step and, you know, I'm, I'm putting my boot print in other people's path. So there's a little sort of steps there and sometimes they would just break and you would just slide down and, you know, it's just incredibly frustrating and you exert a lot of energy. But I looked up and I saw where the snow met the horizon.

I saw bright colors and I thought, that's it. Like those are other peoples standing there at the summit. And more than anything, I wanted to cry in that moment. But I was like, do not cry. Like you you're not there yet. And just to sort of bring things full circle I had, after my father died, I had, you know, carried his ashes to like every mountain.

Sprinkle them on the top. And it was a very, you know, just peaceful sort of full circle moment to spread the last of his ashes on the summative K2, which is, you know, he never in his life could have imagined traveling to Pakistan. So it was fun to just sort of, not only to have him with me, but to be able to share that with him as well was really special.

Passionistas: What is the coming down like physically and emotionally?

Lisa: So, I'm glad you asked that question, Amy, because most people and I was very, very conscious of writing about this in my book because the summit is halfway like it is literally halfway and more mountaineering accidents occur on the dissent. Then then climbing up and that's because you're tired.

Many people push beyond what they're capable of. You're you know, just logistically you're facing away from the mountain. Oftentimes gravity is not working in your favor. And so the dissent to me is very. Harrowing like it's I very consciously at the top of, at any big mountain do not celebrate because it is, you're not done.

There is still a lot more work to do. And on K2 in particular, you know, we talked a little bit about like that moment on Everest, where I felt like I was sort of stepping into my own strength and on K2, I'm [00:41:00] descending, very steep ice face and. There are ropes there. And one rope is meant for climbers coming up.

There are still some climbers ascending, and the other rope is meant for climbers who are descending. Another climber had, uh, started to ascend the rope that I was about to use to go down. And I scream at him. You know, he's very, he's far down the slope. He can't hear me. He's just sort of laying there. And I sort of looked, my friend Garrett was next to me and he recommended that I descend. Using not the most secure technique, a, a technique arm wrapping where you wrap the rope around your arm and you, um, you're connected to that rope with a safety carabiner. It's locked, but you lean forward and just walk face first down the mountain. And I had done it many times, but, but I, it just didn't feel right.

To do it then. And I didn't even, I don't even know where this voice came from, but I just told him no, like I'm not, that's not how I'm gonna do that this today. And so I, you know, set up my repel device, which takes longer, is much safer, but you know, takes longer repel down to this man who's laying face first and the ice, not, he wasn't response, he was alive.

I could, you know, he was alive. He did survive by the way, just before I get too far in the story. But he wasn't responsive to my, you know, yelling at him, trying to get him to move. And so I had to execute this very, very delicate sequence of moving my gear, you know, establishing a safe anchor, moving my gear around him on what I know, because I, you know, study this mountain intimately is.

The place on that mountain where most people have died and thankfully it went well and he survived and, you know, I was able to continue, but that was a moment that, to me, that just underscores that [00:43:00] the dissent is so in some ways more important than the ascent in terms of difficulty. And that, that moment looking back, or I said to my friend, Garrett, like, that's not how I'm gonna do this today.

I really felt like was pivotal in terms of me, sort of, this is a man that I've climbed with for years. I've always trusted him. He knows my capability. And so for me to just, you know, take a different tact, I think was, you know, just more of me, like stepping into my own voice and strength in the mountains, which is a good feeling.

Passionistas: Can you compare for us the fear that you faced being diagnosed with cancer versus the fear you faced on a mountain like that?

Lisa: Knowing how dangerous it is and if those are different and if you have the same or different tools to deal with both. Yeah, that's an awesome question. They feel to me like somatically, they feel very different.

I feel like different kinds of fear. When I was diagnosed with cancer, I felt completely unprepared to deal with that scenario. It was not anything that I ever thought I would have to encounter or deal with in my life. And I felt out of control. I felt like, you know, my body was, had turned against me initially.

I, you know, before I had a team of people to support me, I felt alone. And without like a path or a, you know, a guide to get me through this situation. And luckily that changed and I found incredible healthcare. It felt much scarier to be diagnosed with cancer in the mountains. I feel like, you know, I have, I understand what I can control and I have the skills to get myself through it.

And I think fear for sure in the mountains. I, I believe that a little bit of fear is a good thing because I think that it keeps you focused. It keeps me alert to what's going on around me. If the weather's changing, if the route is changing, if. You know, someone climbing above me that doesn't look super safe, that little bit of fear sharpens my awareness too much fear.

I think in the mountains and in fighting cancer can be stifling. And I think it can actually, you know, sort of stop you from progressing. But that's a, a really important question because they, for me are very different flavors of fear.

Passionistas: So what's the next big challenge for you?

Lisa: Yeah. So we talked about it a little bit in the beginning. I don't endeavor. I don't have any desire to climb anything more challenging than K2 in my life, but I do wanna keep climbing and it's become more important to me to give back to the communities, particularly in Nepal and in Pakistan, where I have just learned so much about myself and gotten so much from them personally.

So I wanna, I wanna start to give back to those communities and in particular to the women who, who live in those communities. So along with some female mountaineering friends of mine, we were setting up a philanthropic climb for this fall to a mountain called Cholatse which is in, uh, Nepal. It's about 6,800 meters.

It will not be the hardest mountain we've ever climbed. But the point is that we just wanna show that anything is possible when women support one another in the mountains. And so to us, that means. That our team will be fully comprised of women. I don't know if that's ever happened before. I think there've been some all women's climbs that maybe had support from men, but, and not that we don't like men, but like we just wanna show that women can do everything in the mountains that a man can do.

And so we're building that team. We're super lucky to have a great, uh, Nepalese uh, climbing leader. Pasang Lama. She's helping us create a team of all women to, to cook, to carry loads, to plan, to do everything. And we just think it's an incredible sort of opportunity to raise some money for at least one, depending on how, how fundraising goes maybe more, but we want to.

We're soliciting input for Nepalese women who have some educational related goal in their life. So if they wanna learn a trade, if they wanna open a tea house, um, if they weren't wanna learn about economics, like we want to be able, we wanna be the catalyst that helps that woman learn those skills so that she can better not just her life.

But I think, you know, that sort of has this trickle-down effect and has the potential to positively impact generations. So. I'm, you know, just beyond excited to be a part of this team and we'll see where it goes. We'd love to do it, you know, multiple years, but we're all, you know, just we're dedicated and excited to, to climb with a purpose now.

Passionistas: So what inspired you to write your book "Finding Elevation"?

Lisa: I had always wanted to write, which I studied engineering in college, you know? I felt like I was very far away from that as, as an adult, but as a kid, I had a desire to write. And in my twenties, I tried out different topics. You know, none of them just sort of seemed to fit.

And then when I was diagnosed with cancer, I really relied on journaling to, to get me through that and to be this, you know, sort of outlet for everything that I was feeling. And. Probably two years of journaling, I sort of realized that there were a lot of things that I had encountered that seemed to translate to other people.

You know, that if I could share what I had learned, the hard way with another woman that maybe, you know, she would have an easier path than I did. And so it became really important for me to share. Um, and, and, you know, at the time I thought this will just be about cancer. And then as I continued to climb and I continued to learn more about myself and what I'm capable of and how to overcome obstacles, how to find your voice.

Most of that through K2, it, it just really turned into a much bigger project than just journaling. . What was the thing you learned about yourself from writing the book that maybe surprised you the. I think I learned a lot about my childhood when I was writing. Um, I, and I, you know, I spent a year studying memoir at the university of Washington, and I remember like my, there was nothing about my childhood in, in an early draft.

And my instructor was like, you can't leave that out. Like that's a part of, and I was like, yeah, but it wasn't, you know, it wasn't super, like, it's kind of painful for me. I really don't wanna put it in here. Um, and of course it, you know, needs to be a more balanced story, et cetera, etcetera. And so by me sort of digging through that, I realized, you know, this sort of these traits that I have today and where they came from.

And there was a lot of therapy in there as well. And it made me realize that, you know, something that. Because I said, my parents, you know, were not very reliable. They weren't always around. And, and that made me a very independent person. Um, there's certainly some downsides to that, but I think there's, I think there's always a silver lining.

There's always some positive. Outcome, even of bad situations. And we often just have to look a little bit harder, like, you know, dig a little bit deeper to find them. But those I think are, you know, the real nuggets and like where, where we really learn why we are the way we are.

Passionistas: Thanks for listening to our interview with Lisa Thompson, to learn more about her adventures and get a copy of her book, finding elevation, visit LisaClimbs.com

Please visit ThePassionistasProject.com to learn more about our podcast and subscription box filled with products made by women owned businesses and female artisans to inspire you to follow your Passions. Double your first box when you sign up for a one year subscription. Remember to sign up for our mailing list, to get more information about the Power of Passionistas Summit at bit.ly/2022PowerofPassionistasTickets.

And be sure to subscribe to the Passionistas Project Podcast, so you don't miss any of our upcoming inspiring guests. Until next time stay well and stay passionate.

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Tia Lessen and Emma Pildes are the directors of the new HBO documentary The Janes. Tia is an Oscar nominee for her work on HBO's Troubled the Water and Emma is an Emmy nominee for HBO's Jane Fonda in Five Acts.

Their new film, The Janes, tells a story of a group of unlikely outlaws, defying the state legislature that outlawed abortion, the Catholic church that condemned it and the Chicago mob that was profiting from it. The members of The Janes risked their personal and professional lives to help women in the pre-Roe versus Wade era, a time when abortion was a crime in most states and even circulating information about abortion was a felony in Illinois. The Janes provided low cost and free abortions to an estimated 11,000 women. A raid in which seven members of the collective were arrested, became the driving force for Roe vs. Wade, the Supreme Court decision that legalized abortion nationwide in 1973 and is inevitably going to be reversed in the United States in 2022.

Learn more about The Janes.

Learn more about The Passionistas Project.

FULL TRANSCRIPT:

The Passionistas: Hi, and welcome to The Passionistas Project Podcast, where we talk with women who are following their passions to inspire you to do the same.

We're Amy and Nancy Harrington, and today we're talking with Tia lessen and Emma Pildes, the directors of the new HBO documentary "The Janes." Tia is an Oscar nominee for her work on HBO's "Troubled the Water" and Emma is an Emmy nominee for HBO's "Jane Fonda in Five Acts."

Their new film, "The Janes," tells a story of a group of unlikely outlaws, defying the state legislature that outlawed abortion, the Catholic church that condemned it and the Chicago mob that was profiting from it. The members of The Janes risked their personal and professional lives to help women in the pre-Roe versus Wade era, a time when abortion was a crime in most states and even circulating information about abortion was a felony in Illinois. The Janes provided low cost and free abortions to an estimated 11,000women. A raid in which seven members of the collective were arrested, became the driving force for Roe vs. Wade, the Supreme Court decision that legalized abortion nationwide in 1973 and is inevitably going to be reversed in the United States in 2022.

So please welcome to the show Tia Lessin and Emma Pildes.

We'd like to begin by asking you both what you're most passionate about. Let's start with you Emma.

Emma Pildes: My skillset when I'm good at what I've worked hard to be good at being a filmmaker to lift up stories like these in moments like these, to give a platform for in this case, these extraordinary women to testify about things that are important.

I'm passionate about using my powers for good. I think this is what I'm saying,  but I mean, you know, that's it, we, we, there's so many things in this world that I can't do and I'm here and this is a path that I've chosen and I want to make something of it.

The Passionistas: What about you, Tia?

Tia Lessin: I'm passionate about storytelling. I'm passionate about democracy and passionate about my 11 year old son and living with. A good world in the future. I'm passionate about women's rights and racial justice and economic equality. I'm passionate about making pottery, which is something I do when I'm not making films and making dinner for my kid.

The Passionistas: Tell everybody who The Janes are.

Tia Lessin: The Janes are a group of infinitely resourceful women in the late sixties and early seventies. At a time when abortion was illegal and most of the country, they decided to challenge that they went underground. This was a group of pretty unlikely outlaws. They were college students and college dropouts and homemakers and clerical workers, and they knew that they wanted to use their resources and their time to save women's lives and to make safe and affordable abortions accessible to women in Chicago and actually women throughout the Midwest who flocked to them at that time who had few options when they wanted to end their pregnancies.

And one other thing I'll say is that they defied the Catholic church. They defied the Mob, they defied and invaded the Chicago police for many, many years and used all sorts of underground tactics and techniques. To build this sisterhood of care.

The Passionistas: What compelled you to make the film? Why tell this story now?

Emma Pildes: Three years after Roe became law of the [00:04:00] land, the Hyde amendment passed. They've been chipping away at abortion access and abortion care and reproductive justice from the get-go. So I suppose in some way, anywhere along the way in the last few years, this film would have been important and relevant.

It certainly switched into hyperdrive in 2016 when Trump got into office and immediately started packing the courts and his rhetoric was all over the place and ideologues were more and more in government and in the courts, it got scary in a new way. And Daniel Arcana, one of the other producers on the film started developing, daniel also happens to be my brother and we have a family connection to this story. So he sort of had this in his back pocket and it was pretty clear that now is the time I don't think he knew, or we knew as we came together quite how timely it was going to be. You know, I don't think we could have ever predicted that in the same month that we're premiering on HBO.

We are going to lose Roe. So I would not go so far as to say we got lucky with that, because that is certainly not the case. You know, we wanted to tell a historical tale because it seemed important.

And to give these women a voice and it seemed important that it was starting to become relevant, but never could we have imagined that it would be quite so relevant, but we're just grateful to have something to contribute to the conversation. And we feel really fortunate and humble to tell these women's story.

The Passionistas: Beyond the abortions themselves, what were the legal risks that The Janes were taking and what did you learn from talking to them the reasons that they felt it was so important to do what they were doing at the time?

Tia Lessin: Well, they were risking charges of abortion and conspiracy to commit abortion. Actually at that time, even advertising their services was a felony crime assisting a woman to get an abortion was a felony crime holding her hand during an abortion was a felony. So it wasn't just providing the service, the medical service. It was everything around it that could have landed them in prison and almost did, were it not for Roe.

So look, they were well aware of the potential consequences of their actions, not to mention the social stigmatization that they potentially faced from friends and family members, because at that time, it wasn't a socially acceptable thing and still to this day. So they were willing to risk all that professional loss, personal loss time in prison because they so believed that this was a moral obligation to stand up, to help make sure that women had this ability to control their own fates, to decide when and whether, and with whom to have children. And they were highly influenced by the civil rights movement and the anti-war movement and the student movement and the women's liberation movement, of course, where they had a righteous calling against racism and economic injustice and the killing of innocent people in the unjust war.

And I think all that experience gave them the grounding to do this political work. And it was work, not just taking a political stand, not just signing a petition, but actually doing this day in day out work to, to create this group of mutual aid.

The Passionistas: What were the advantages of this collective being an organization run almost completely by women?

Emma Pildes: I can't remember Katie's exact quote at the beginning of the film, but she's basically saying, because nobody pays any attention to us as women that, you know, really worked hard advantage in this instance.

And I think that's really true. I mean, they're so smart. They sort of utilize that as a superpower to be under the radar with this. I think there's probably a lot of things I think quite highly of women, what they're capable of and what their super powers. So there's quite a lot that they brought to the table from being mothers or not being mothers from not talking, but listening and all of those other movements, because they weren't sort of allowed to talk.

I mean, they probably soaked up quite a bit of knowledge. They're being marginalized and they picked that up and they brought that with them and they use that to their advantage. So these are brilliant moral human beings. That as Tia said were really willing to put it on the line to help other people in need, no matter what the consequence is and that bravery, I mean, I don't know that there's, that's, that's something extraordinary.

The Passionistas: We're Amy and Nancy Harrington and you're listening to The Passionistas Project Podcast in our interview with Tia Lessin and Emma Pildes. qatch their documentary, "The Janes" on HBO and HBO. Max.

We'd like to take a moment to share a special announcement. We'll be hosting the third annual power of Passionistas summit this September 21st through September 23rd, 2022. And. The three-day virtual event is focused on authentic conversations about diversity, equity, and inclusion, this unique gathering of intersectional storytellers and panelists partisans, the power of our rich community, a passionate thought leaders and activists to pose solutions to the problems plaguing women today.

Early bird tickets go on sale on June 21st. To learn more, visit The Passionistas Project dot com backslash 2022 dash summit.

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Now here's more of our interview with Tia and Emma.

Abortion became legal in New York what were the effects on women of color or poor women even after that momentous event?

Tia Lessin: It was true then. And it's still true that when women have to cross state lines for legal abortions, certain women, certain people are left behind large groups of people.

People that can't afford to travel, they can't afford the cost of a plane ticket or a bus. And they don't have access to a car or take a gas, you know, or they don't have a place to put their children because many of these were already mothers looking to terminate, maybe the fourth or fifth or sixth pregnancy, or they didn't have the luxury of taking time off of work.

And so this was primarily low-income women and young women, disproportionally brown and black women who were stuck, you know, they were left behind. And their very best option. And it was quite a good one was to turn to Jane the worst option. People who didn't have the resourcefulness or the luck or the connections to find Jane turned to the mob or to back-alley abortionists or, and if they couldn't find that they may have self-inflicted some harm, they might've tried to self induce.

And a lot of those women have. In the septic abortion, where to cook county hospital, which is a dumping ground from all over Chicago, for women who presented with bleeding or injury from a induced abortion. And when they got there, they were interrogated by police who had done this to them. And if they were lucky enough to survive, you know, to live another day, that was great.

But many of them didn't, many of them work damaged beyond repair and too many. And just to be clear, this is for a very simple medical procedure. We're talking about a procedure that is commonplace one in four people of childbearing age with a uterus, have an abortion. And we're talking about a procedure that's safer than a colonoscopy and a tonsillectomy, and is far safer than childbirth.

They're not dying because there's anything inherently dangerous about the procedure they were dying because they couldn't get one safely in a clinic situation.

Emma Pildes: The amount of women that died and were injured up against how safe the procedure is makes you realize how little the practitioners out there at the time cared. That's a tough pill to swallow. Nobody should be dying from this procedure when you're in a country where the government is saying that they don't value women's lives. I guess that's not surprising how unscrupulous the people out there in the back alleys. Some were doctors that were in it for themselves who injured, murdered, sexually assaulted sterilized women.

It's just, just none of that has to be the case here. So, yes, it's a, it's an incredibly simple procedure that a group of young, some of them are 19 years old. We're able to take on and do safely just because they cared.

The Passionistas: What's the lesson that we can learn from the film in the midst of the current situation with Roe vs. Wade?

Tia Lessin: The remarkable thing about Roe vs. Wade is that it created federal protection for abortion. That means that every state had to subject career and other respect a woman's right to choose. And without Roe V Wade, as we see, you know, it's every woman for herself, your healthcare is dictated by your zip code and the state you live in and whether or not the people representing your state in the state legislature give a damn about women's autonomy and women's choice, or want to use that issue for politically.

So what's going to happen. What's clear. It's not a question of, if it's a question of when Roe V. Wade is overturned and it in this month is that large swaths of this country are gonna be without abortion care, like existed. pre-Roe only, in some ways there are much more punitive consequences for women and the providers who serve them.

People are subject to criminal prosecution. If they cross state lines for the spinach. Doctors potentially are subject to that prosecution for serving patients out of state. And everyday citizens are being incentivized with bounties to turn in their neighbors and friends and colleagues. If they suspect that person has had an abortion it's madness, none of those laws existed pre-Roe. In Ohio, there's a bill under consideration that prohibits abortion in cases of incest and rape, because the legislator who defended it says, you know, there's, there's always contraception in the case of rape and incest. Anyway. So in the context, I think we're [00:16:00] hoping that the story helps to pass on some of the lessons learned from that era and engage audiences in the fight.

The Passionistas: How did the Janes feel about what's happening right now?

Tia Lessin: Neither of us would put words in their mouth.

Emma Pildes: It's a dangerous thing to do.

Tia Lessin: They've been interviewed and they've been on stage when we've heard them enough to be able to say that they are in fighting shape. Look, 50 years ago is a long time, but they've moved on in their lives.

And many of them are in retirement and tending their gardens and their grandchildren. And Eleanor is in a quilting circle. And, you know, they're all doing their own thing. They are ready to fight. And they're using this film as a vehicle to do that. I mean, they're speaking out, they're speaking loudly, they're offering up whatever wisdom they've gained.

And they're also really very happy to pass the baton to the next generation of young people who really have to take this on and fight the fight. The stakes are very high and it involves their lives. So they're happy and mad as what I'd say.

The Passionistas: Do you think there'll be a new movement of Janes? Do you think there are already women out there who are coming together to be prepared to do this hard work?

Emma Pildes: Yeah, I think there's a lot of people coming together to do this hard work. I don't think we know exactly what form it's going to take. The conservative right. Has gotten very creative in the last 50 years, but we have to, you know, and we have the abortion pill now, which is a big leg up, you know? I mean, it's really, it's, it's a big difference.

We have the internet. That's a big difference probably for good and bad, but that's a big difference. So I think what's clear is that people care that was evident from the. I think that will people up a bit. I don't think it's enough yet. And what we hope to do with the film is to wake the sleeping giant of the majority.

You know, we don't have to change hearts and minds. We just have to remind people that they have to speak up. You know, all those things that Tia was just saying, that's a miscarriage of justice. That's a failing of our democracy. This, isn't just one issue. They're coming at us with this unrighteous moral high ground, and they're going to keep going, telling people how to live based on their beliefs.

So I don't think that's going to stand. I do agree with he, I think the ship has sailed. I think we are going to lose row, but I think people will come together. And the other side of the coin for us and making this. Yes. We were quite aware and have been for the last couple of years of the detailed reality of what this country looks like when women don't have a right to choose and how many people die and how many people are injured and all that.

But we are also steeped in this story of human trials. That the moral code of these women is part of the human condition too. So that's been very inspiring and I think there's an unfathomable amount of work to be done, but we can do it, but we got to take to the streets and open our wallets and do all the things necessary to make that happen. We can't rest on our laurels anymore.

The Passionistas: What's your dream for women?

Tia Lessin: Some days I'm very hopeful. So I think of the dreams and some days I just think of the nightmare that people are living in the U S has the highest incarceration rate in the world. There are millions of people in prison right now. There are millions of people sleeping on the streets every night in our country.

There are 30 million people. I just looked that up that don't have healthcare insurance that don't, that don't have access to. And now they're tens of millions of people who aren't going to have any say about whether and when, and with whom they're going to have children. So that's the nightmare part of it.

And that their access is determined by how much money they have in the pocket or what resources they can connect to. So I know the nightmare part of it. The dream would be that that all goes away. You know, that women, people with uteruses who want to have children can at the time they want to and have diapers for their babies when they're born and have baby formula or the ability to nurse and have good schools to send their children to, and the support they need, you know, the childcare support.

You know, and the economic support that they need to raise those children in loving homes with the resources that they need. And, and the, those people that do not wish to own a child, but want to be part of children's lives. Won't get stigmatized and can do that as well. So that's my dream is that women's professional and economic lives.

Aren't determined by whether or not we have. Our social status is not determined by whether or not we have children. And our economic status is not determined by whether or not we have children. That's the dream.

Emma Pildes: My dream for women, I guess, would be that they can fulfill their dreams. It's about feeling valued and equal and having bodily autonomy and not just stopping there. That's such a basic human, right. I feel like we've been fighting for basic human rights forever. So I guess my dream would be that we could stop talking about that and that we could thrive in all the other ways that we want to thrive. And fulfill our dreams and see it through to the, you know, to the next generation and not be damaged by male and female.

Unfortunately, lawmakers for generations, there's a lot of female generational trauma that comes from this kind of legislation. People lose mothers when they're very young and that changes their whole life and their children's lives. The ripple effect. It's very profound. So I wish we could stop talking about all this and stop having a fight for all of this and able to thrive.

The Passionistas: Thanks for listening to our interview with Tia Lessin and Emma Pildes. Watch their documentary, "The Janes," on HBO and HBO max, please visit The Passionistas Project.Com to learn more about our podcast and subscription box filled with products made by women owned businesses and female artisans to inspire you to follow your passions. Double your first box when you sign up for a one-year subscription.

And remember to sign up for our mailing list, to get more information about the Power of Passionistas summit.

And be sure to subscribe to The Passionistas Project Podcast, so you don't miss any of our upcoming inspiring guests.

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After 25 years in law and academia assisting women during life transitions, such as divorce and reentering the workforce, CinDiLo created her own second act of writing and workshops for fellow Generation X women seeking to live their midlife with purpose and clarity through whentheclockstrikesmidlife.com. She recently published the easy-to-use weekly journal "When the Clock Strikes Midlife, It's Your Time to Shine," to inspire women to cultivate their midlife awakening with its interactive guided prompts and witty yet truthful perspective. CinDiLo has also started a new movement: #myfirsttimeover50, where she encourages women over 50 to try a new activity and ask the question: When was the last time you did something for the first time?

Learn more about CinDiLo.

Learn more about The Passionistas Project.

FULL TRANSCRIPT:

Passionistas: Hi, and welcome to The Passionistas Project Podcast, where we talk with women who are following their passions to inspire you to do the same. We're Amy and Nancy Harrington. And today we're talking with CinDiLo.

After 25 years in law and academia assisting women during life transitions, such as divorce and reentering the workforce, CinDi created her own second act of writing and workshops for fellow Generation X women seeking to live their midlife with purpose and clarity through whentheclockstrikesmidlife.com. She recently published the easy to use weekly journal "When the Clock Strikes Midlife, It's Your Time to Shine", to inspire women to cultivate their midlife awakening with its interactive guided prompts and witty yet truthful perspective.

CinDi has also started a new movement: #myfirsttimeover50, where she encourages women over 50 to try a new activity and ask the question: when was the last time you did something for the first time? So please welcome to the show, CinDiLo.

CinDi: Hello! Thank you for having me.

Passionistas: Oh, we're really excited to have you on the show. We've been using our guide and we love it, so we wanted to talk to you about it and your journey. What we want to start with is, what's the one thing you're most passionate about?

CinDi: I think overall it's growth. Not only growth myself, but others. Whether it's myself, my children, my loved ones, my friends, my BFFs on the internet, which I call my Cyber BFFs, and strangers. I always believe in growth and encouraging people to grow and learn about themselves in the world.

Passionistas: Why is that so important to you?

CinDi: Everything stems from childhood. Probably stagnant people around me, people that, you know, just don't have that mindset. They don't, you know, immediately you say, "here, try this..." "No!" You know, it's just an automatic shut down, shut themselves down and don't ever try anything.

Passionistas: Let's take a step back. You mentioned your childhood. Tell us a little bit about your childhood and what it was like.

CinDi: I was born with something called a TE fistula, which I like to mention the name because most people don't know about it, but people that do know about us saying, "oh." It's a birth defect where your esophagus isn't connected to your stomach.

I was lucky in the fact that that was my only birth defect. Many babies are born with a lot more issues that are a lot more severe along with that. And I was repaired in the hospital for the first year of my life back in the 1960s. I won't tell you when in the 1960s. But I was in a bed. And they would put injections in my thighs because I would get pneumonia laying in a hospital bed.

So they would treat that back then with penicillin shots or antibiotic shots in your muscles, which they don't do any more because it causes atrophy of the muscles. And so by the time I was a toddler, I pretty much couldn't bend either of my legs. And when I was four, I had my right leg operated on and I spent a whole summer in a cast. But I still had my left leg that didn't bend. Then I went through that way all through elementary school up until eighth grade. The summer between eighth grade and high school, I got my left leg opreated on. Again, spent the whole summer in a cast.

But I did everything. My parents never told me that I couldn't do anything, even though I had so many issues. I think I was their third spirited child. And because of what I went through, they kind of let me do whatever I want, as long as it wasn't too dangerous. So I rode a bike. I ran in gym, you know, I never sat out of gym or anything like that. I played dodgeball and got whacked in the head like everyone else.

So, you know, that didn't come without issues. You know, I was teased, especially in middle school. Some of the boys would tease me and were mean, but for the most part, I would say it wasn't on a regular basis and it was one or two boys. But in the meantime, again, it never deterred me from doing anything. I continued actually to go on, to be president of the school when I was in eighth grade.

Passionistas: Do you feel like that still impacts... these experiences you had as a child still impact the person you are today?

CinDi: Oh, of course. I think everything that happens to us now makes us who we are in this present moment. Yeah. I think it makes me more sympathetic and empathetic to a wide array of people. And maybe that is one of the reasons I'm more open-minded. And maybe that also is one of the reasons that I never let anything stop me and weren't really worried about what people think, because that seems to be a big thing with some people around. You know, just sometimes even the silliest things like, you know, make sure your hair is perfect for whatever it might be, make your bedroom, you know, like somebody is going to judge you if you don't make your bed that day.

Passionistas: So what inspired you to get into law and academia?

CinDi: I found myself, graduated high school, and I didn't have an idea in mind of what I wanted to do. I was the first person to go to college as far as my sisters and I. So long story short, I worked for a year in retail. I went to a seminar of a woman who did a little thing about being a paralegal and it really intrigued me.

I went on to become a paralegal and get my degree, which back then, in the 1990s, mid nineties, nobody had... not that nobody had paralegal degree, but it wasn't needed really. You know, all you have to do is have some experience working in a law office and they'll throw you to the trenches and teach you what they want to teach you.

So I did that. And then of course, me being me, by the year 2000, I created a website called njparalegal.com because, at the time, there was legislation going on in my state of what was going to happen with paralegals. Were we going to be licensed or not licensed? And many of us wanted and want to be licensed. It's still not licensed anywhere in any state in the United States, but it is more regulated. And education is more of a priority for employers now, which elevates the industry.

Passionistas: And how did you come to focus kind of on women's issues and helping women through transitions?

CinDi: That's another thing that in hindsight, I don't know if you ever got to a place and I think midlife might be this place where you kind of look back on all of the things you did and you start noticing a thread or a pattern. And one thing I even noticed, again, going back to childhood is I was a connector and a networker back then. I created clubs, when I was like eight years old. I had like a cat club. Then I told you I was president in eighth grade.

That continued, you know, when I became a paralegal. I always have, whether it was school or work or even mommyhood, I've always gotten involved in groups of women. We still have a group of women... we're friends for 26 years. We were all new moms. We started with 10 moms and grew to 30 children. And we still try to get together once a year, even though we're in different states. Maybe it's from growing up with all, you know, all girls, but I always thrived in women's circles. Ironically, I have two sons, so I've learned a lot about living with all men. For some reason, that's something I've always been drawn to. And again, I noticed that pattern later in life.

Passionistas: So you've told us that you had a midlife crash when you were around 45. So tell us what happened and what personal changes you made during that time period.

CinDi: Like I said, I don't consider it a crisis. For whatever reason, I don't like the word crisis, but the word crash. Because it was just what I call again, that Jerry Maguire moment where I was just like, enough is enough. Something's gotta give. And I think I just named three movies all in... One in a row.

I was just at a point in my life where my children were probably the most active they were and couldn't drive themselves yet anywhere. So they were at an active stage in school and probably at some point starting to work. And my mother had just passed, I believe. And soon after that, my father became ill.

And on top of it, as luck would have it, I worked for a woman who was really worst employer I ever had. She was just, you know, a very difficult personality and everything just kind of... Oh, and by the way, at this time too, I decided to go back and complete my bachelor's degree because I never finished that back in my twenties. So anyhow, that was all going on. And it was just a really, really difficult moment.

And... I apologize, my mom did not pass away yet. This was the crash. The crash was my mom was actually dying and I had to leave. And they all knew this, but in the meantime, I drafted an email telling them what I was working on, I had it covered. I covered all the bases and my boss's reply back was "I need it now." And she claims she didn't mean that for me, but whatever. It was just one of those aha moments where I was like, nothing is worth this. And I didn't quit my job that day, obviously.

But soon after it, you know, once I got back into the swing of things, I eventually found a new job and, you know, and I never, knock on wood, I never worked for anybody like again. And I've been very fortunate since. And I've been trying to, uh, I guess, make better choices and just... you know, sometimes we're all just stuck in certain places that we didn't mean to be in, but we just got there. So that was, it was just a terrible, terrible time. It was really difficult.

And when I look back the entire time from when my mom was sick, until then she passed and my dad was sick and then he passed. That was a decade. And that was hard. I mean, it was, again, my sisters and I still talk about that and it's, again, one of those things where you turn around, and you're like, "I have no idea how I did that. I have no idea how I got through it, how I still took care of everyone."

So that's the other thing. I realized I'm taking care of everyone and not taking care of myself, which I think women do in general. And I also think at this point in life, you get to the stage where I can't do this anymore. You know, I took care of everyone all this time.

So it was just all around. One of those aha moments I needed. Something needed to change and it had to start with me because everybody else is just continuing to do what they did and I allowed it. You know, so everybody else had to kind of step up and realize what I was doing and they did. But you know, sometimes everybody needs an adjustment, including you.

Passionistas: So what adjustments did you make besides getting a new job and how do you today take care of yourself?

CinDi: I had to have a serious conversation with my husband, who's great and helps a lot and does a lot. But again, it was a really busy time and he is also a glutton for punishment, like me. And he always did coaching. And he couldn't just coach. He had to be like president of the football team... of the football organization. So we're both like that, which can be commendable, but it's typical. And you know, I also always wanted to be involved in my child's education and the community and the school things. And, you know, it was hard. I tried my best and that's all we can do.

So my husband got on board. You know, my kids were pretty good again as well, but I had to just remind them of everything I was doing and everything. And, you know, when you can, you need to try to help yourself or call dad. And it got to the point, before my dad passed, the last two years especially, where my sisters and I all were just running ragged. And we tried to balance that out as well, too, especially with one sister out of state.

It's communication with yourself and everybody else in your life of what you need. And sometimes you don't even know what you need and that evolves too. But the biggest thing at that moment was really, I think, making everybody aware of what's going on. Because I don't think they see it and nor maybe do I see it either. You know, we're sometimes consumed in our own lives and everything we have to do when we don't know what somebody else is doing or going through internally or all the things that they juggle on a day.

So now the way I care for myself is easier. So we moved after my youngest son went to college. We were in the Northeast and my youngest son went to college that came down to South Carolina and we knew we were eventually coming down here. So he knew the area. And I think even though initially he was far from home, he felt comfortable because he knew the area already. And also knowing we would eventually be down here.

So lo and behold, after the real estate market opened up, finally, we got down here about a year later than we expected, but that's fine. I think everything happens for a reason. And here we are. So we are 600 miles south. And so that has afforded me to live a little bit of an easier life, as far as I don't have to work full time. I do have a part-time job that I really enjoy. Ironically, pretty much all of us in the office have New Jersey roots, so that was fortunate there as far as, you know, feeling comfortable and feeling at home.

I will also confess I'm not a morning person. So I picked my hours, which are 12 to 5. So, you know, I still get up in the morning. I have a puppy now. Well, she's not a puppy anymore, but I have a dog and we go to the beach and take walks in the morning or we go for coffee and she's my little buddy. And I'm just that type of person: I need at least an hour where nobody talks to me in the morning. Honestly, it might sound silly, but that makes me a much happier person and not that rushing, rushing, rushing.

And you know, in between mornings and nights and weekends, I fill in with my blog and my book and my... all the other things that I do. That to me is still a --luckily-- a passion of mine. So I don't look at that as working. I enjoy doing it. You know, some people don't get that. They're like, "oh, you're working on your blog again." Or, "oh, it's Saturday." I don't look at it that way. I look forward to doing it, believe it or not.

So my life has really improved where I was able to create more of what I love in my life. And then sharing that and encouraging other women to do that was really important to me because it's true. I feel like I needed, and a lot of other women need, basically a free pass to tell them that they can do what they want or that they can create the life that they want. And granted it's much easier for some than others, but to a certain extent, we need to try to do that for ourselves, even if it's just feeling a little bit of time here and there.

Oh, I forgot. The biggest thing I went back to and what I changed in my life was I went back to writing. I went back to my first love and I never realized what an outlet that was for me, because I stopped my personal writing. I still did some writing as a paralegal and also on my paralegal blog, but that was more technical and industry related and it wasn't personal writing. So that is really what I think got me out of my midlife crash slump at the time. It was definitely one of the things that really, really helped me. And again, going back to things I loved as a child.

Passionistas: We're Amy and Nancy Harrington, and you're listening to The Passionistas Project Podcast and our interview with CinDiLo. To read her blog, find out about her workshops for Gen X women and get a copy of the weekly journal "When the Clock Strikes Midlife, It's Your Time to Shine", visit whentheclockstrikesmidlife.com. And follow CinDi on Instagram @whentheclockstrikesmidlife to share your hashtag #forthefirsttimeover50 adventures.

If you're enjoying this interview and would like to help us to continue creating inspiring content, please consider becoming a patron by visiting thepassionistasproject.com/podcast and clicking on the patron button. Even $5 a month can help us continue our mission of inspiring women to follow their passions. Now here's more of our interview with CinDi.

Let's talk about you going out and sharing this with other women. You started The Midlife on Purpose planner. So tell us what that is and why you created it.

CinDi: Okay. Yeah. So again, it's a tool to encourage women to do different things, to think outside the box, and actually even plan what you're going to do. I'm not saying that you need to plan every moment of your life, but sometimes, and I'm still a perfect example of this, I forget to have fun and to plan things that I've been meaning to do for the past three years.

You know, I live here and there was, of course you have so many things you're going to do when you do something new. And I've done some, but there are still, you know, some things that aren't even, you know, far away. Or I just say, oh, I'm going to do a day trip here, or I'm going to go to the zoo or a museum and, you know, some things I still haven't gotten to. And that's okay, but it's just a little bit of encouragement.

And then I found that women really loved it during 2020, as you can imagine. And then we all had to, and I tried to get a little bit more creative in the calendar because okay, now we have to rethink things a little bit. And even though most of the time, the things I suggest are a lot of outdoors-y things, which hopefully a lot of us were able to do during 2020. Since we couldn't do much of anything else, you're either indoors or outdoors. But I tried to get a little bit more creative with doing things or suggesting, you know, a zoom party or... you know, we were all trying new things back then. Which was actually great in certain ways. We really had to rethink a lot of things. And I also think that was a halt for the universe well, the planet, I should say for all of us to step back.

Again, and I know this has been said before, about what's really important. Creating the life that we want, many people are finding working from home is a much better quality of life. My sister had that one hour commute each way in New Jersey traffic. And I know California is the same way and they're really enjoying working from home and have a better quality of life. So I think that's something we all need to rethink as, as a planet.

Passionistas: So tell us about whentheclockstrikesmidlife.com and what inspired you to start that?

CinDi: So I was turning 50 in 2018 and I just, I don't know, I'm always sort of researching and even on social media, certain things catch my eye. And I noticed this woman wrote, I think she eventually wrote a book about it, but she did 50 things for turning 50. So that got my wheels turning, and I didn't necessarily want to do that, but I also, again, went back to something from my childhood, which is, "my name is Cindy, not Cynthia." But I have a cousin and sometimes my sisters would call me Cinderella or CinDi-lla.

So I started jotting-- I still have my notes somewhere-- "Cinderella Turns 50." And I was trying to think, and I'm not really a Disney princess person, but first I just want to parlay it into something like that. And then I don't even know how my brain works. I was trying to think of themes for Cinderella. And then "When the Clock Strikes Midlife" just came to my brain, and of course the first thing I did was Google it and see if anybody had it and all that.

So that got me going and that got me excited. I knew I wanted to start a blog. So that's kind of why I was brainstorming. And I had the name and I had already jotted some things down. The first thing I wrote about was my mid-life crash because I wanted to talk about that. And I knew I couldn't have been the only one that felt that way at that age.

A lot of people don't think of 50 as midlife or middle aged, but I think we do as Generation X or it's, I think, more of a stage than anything. So if your children are leaving the nest, when you're 42 or they're leaving when you're 62, that's one of the times you, I think, feel that. As well as a lot of other life changes, you know, losing your parents or going through a relationship change or career change, whatever it might be. We get to that point somewhere between 40 and 60, where we have to make a shift, or we feel like whether we wanted the shift or not, something happened to kind of make that change.

And I think that it's amazing that I feel that our generation is really changing the changes. Not only all the women we see at the political arena and celebrities and the corporate arena, authors and you two wonderful women, you know, in entertainment and everything. I mean, you name it. We really are shining these past few years and I think that's only going to become more, I know that women entrepreneurs are starting more businesses than any other group combined over the past two years.

So I just feel that it's just a thing. And somehow I feel sort of the proudest altogether, but it's almost like build it and they will come. And I feel like that happened with our generation and this point in our life because a few years ago I had somebody tell me, also another entrepreneurial woman, but in a completely different industry. And she was like, first of all, I don't like the name midlife. Second, I don't see that many midlife women doing anything. And I'm like, "well, where have you been?" You know, I don't know what you do. But perhaps, because that is my quote unquote industry or my genre or my arena, I feel like we're everywhere and, and we're doing it.

We are changing careers. We are excelling our careers. We are starting new adventures, getting degrees, going back to school, you name it, you know, more and more of us are doing it. I'm not saying it hasn't been done in the past, but I feel like there's definitely a larger percentage of us doing it and really, you know, not making any excuses and leaning on each other and getting encouragement from each other. Even if you don't necessarily know someone, you would just be inspired by someone who has done something and you think, "Hey, I can do that." Or "That's really cool." You know?

Passionistas: So what do you help women take away from reading your blog?

CinDi: Well, first and foremost, that they're not alone. And some of the thoughts that they have had, or the things that they have gone through, you know, other people have gone through. Well, at least I know I've gone through. And again, little bits of encouragement. That's how I started with my quotes. In my blog, I would always input little pieces of encouragement, which actually many I pulled out of my old writings from when I was young.

They're not alone, encouragement ,and just finding ways to create a life that you want, even though, you know, nobody's life is ever going to be ideal. But if you can imagine certain things in your life that really bring you joy, doesn't have to be a lot of things. It doesn't have to be expensive. It doesn't have to take a lot of time, but whatever they are, it really, really fulfills you. And it makes such a difference in your life and bringing some of your joy, fulfillment and power back.

Passionistas: So tell us a bit about the workshops that you do with Gen X women.

CinDi: Okay, well, thanks to 2020, I haven't done one in a while. Actually, right before COVID I did a vision board workshop, in-person and then I did a virtual one. So yeah. So one of the things that I do is a vision board workshop, and I've always loved vision boards. When I first learned about them, probably close to 10 years ago, and again, this was all part of my midlife awakening and learning new things and doing things to grow. And at the time I was going to yoga, which I'm limited with my physical abilities, but I always just do what I can. And I still love yoga more for the relaxation part of it.

So, they were having a vision board, you know, class one day. And I went to the vision board class and I fell in love with that. And I've been doing them ever since. The other thing that I really loved and I haven't done a course on yet, but I'm working on a few things is... For the beginning of the year, I love Word of the Year. And I've been doing that since 2018, as well, when I started my blog and I really, really loved that idea. I haven't done, as I said, any workshops in a few years, and I do want to get back into that. And there are a few things I'm thinking of and need to work on that and hone in on topics.

I want to take survey topics. And the few surveys I have done, the number one topic women our age always want is stress busters. Their biggest thing is stress. So that is something that I definitely would like to work on, but I need to structure.

When I first moved here, it was almost like a honeymoon, you know. Neither one of us worked or did anything for six weeks. And we were still an empty nest at that point before the 2020 hit and we had one back in the nest. So, you know, we first moved down here... you know, I just felt so free and relaxed. You know, we were going to the beach, going out to dinner and it was lovely. And now that, you know, life happens again and you just start getting involved in life again. And just recently, I was like, okay, we're here two and a half years, I think I need a vacation.

So somehow it creeps back in, but you have to try to do the best you can to manage it. But I also think it's part of living life. For most women like us, I think that we are blessed to be busy and stress with things, for the most part, that we're creating. And we are hopefully enjoying and doing work that we love and with people that we love. So, it's a catch 22.

And you know how sometimes they say change your language. You know, don't say I have to go to work, I get to go to work. So a lot of that is mindset as well.

Passionistas: So while we're on the subject of stress, tell us about your Facebook group Let's Distress, Gen X.

CinDi: Funny that you said that because just a few days ago, I actually closed that group, but I'm doing everything on the main page now. Because I was trying to post them to many places, as you can imagine. It was just, I was trying to do social media, and there wasn't actually that much interaction. So I decided to just put it on the main page. Which I knew that at least there was some interaction there and I had the decent amount of followers involved.

So yeah. So what I'm working on in 2020, as far as the mission of whentheclockstrikesmidlife.com and its platform is midlife, wellness, mind, body, and soul. So every day during the week, I try to post something, it might be a blog, or it just might be, you know, an inspirational quote or a product or a book, um, something that is going to help us. Mind, body or soul, it's going to nourish you in one way or the other and hopefully get some value out of it.

I know if I recommend certain things like a book or, um, even something as silly as a water bottle sometimes. I'm not saying I'm becoming the new Oprah, but, you know, I do feel that people respond to that. And once they get to know you and like you and your work, they are more responsive to that. So I enjoy doing that. Again, I've always been a connector. And I found too, you know, my friends are that way with me. I, you know, I think for whatever reason, people believe what I say or they appreciate my point of view, I guess.

So. Yeah. So that's a work in progress, but that's what I'm focusing on for 2022. And you know how it is. You're always pivoting and figuring out what works, and on top of that, what you're enjoying doing. Sometimes you try something and it's not working, or you're not really enjoying it. So you have to pivot the other way.

Passionistas: So what inspired you to pivot and write your weekly journal When the Clock Strikes Midlife, It's Your Time to Shine?

CinDi: Over time, you know, more recently, of course, some of my friends were like, "when are you going to put these quotes in a book?" So what I started to do was... Actually before I even started the blog, and you two know this because I did The Passionistas Summit and did a recording, but I've always been secretive about my work. So I didn't write for 25 years. And then when I did, I was still wanting to be secretive about it.

So the way I encouraged myself to do it was I went back to my writings from 20, 25 years ago, some of them even longer. I wrote some short stories and things, or even poems. And some of the things I just, I thought to myself, well, I'm not going to write a book or a novel today. So let me just take some of these lines and make them into quotes because I think some of them are cute and they're good. And they're inspiring.

And again, I was starting to think along the lines of eventually starting a blog. So what I did was I took some of the quotes and I took some of my nature photos. And I put an app on my phone and I took the quotes and I put them on the photo and I created what they call quota-graphs, which I did not create that word, but it is a word.

And that's how I started. And I started posting them on my personal Facebook page and, you know, friends and family were like, "oh my God, you wrote this," you know, and that kind of thing. So that gives you a little bit of encouragement. And then eventually, within that year, less than a year by November, I started the blog, but that was kind of how I came out to my writing career and decided to share it.

Then when I started the blog, I started putting these little quotes, original quotes, in my blog that had to do with whatever my blog post was about at that time. And people seem to really appreciate them. And I also use the quotes on social media to promote the blog post and things like that. So people got to really like them. And 2020 was really, of course, one of the years where I was like, okay. And as many of us have said, the universe all gave us a stop sign and it's like, okay, are you going to do this now? Or when are you going to do this? So I decided to try to figure it out. And I put it all together. I hired someone through Fiverr to format it and put all the information together. I sent it to her. After a few back and forths in editing, we had a format.

The other thing is I used to meet friends through my children. Now I meet them through my dog. So I made a friend at the dog park. And we were talking one day and I was telling her that I was putting... actually, I think she showed me. And it's just funny how sometimes you don't know people that well. And we started talking and I think she must've told me or showed me something that she drew. And I was like, wow. I said, I need a cover. I'm writing a journal. And all I said was, I like the work, the art of Henri Matisse, a French artist from probably close to 100 years ago.

And you know, one of my quotes that is somewhat famous that people really like is, "Be a starfish and find a way to regrow." And that's kind of like my motto, again, through growth, and for my life and midlife is always try to grow no matter what life throws at you. So she didn't say anything. And about a week later, she showed me the cover that you're looking at, that you have now, just the way it is, except for I had her add by CinDiLo at the bottom.

I'm like, oh, my God. She's like, "well, I don't know if you'll like it." So I absolutely loved it. And she's the one actually who suggested the black background, which I wasn't sure about at first, because you read all these things on the internet, like no black books or no white books. And anyway, long story short, it was a hit. People really love it. And I really love it, for the most part. It really... you know, if you notice her hair is actually ocean waves and she has a starfish earring on. And, you know, but simple and we just have the little gold bling just to schnazz it up a little bit. It was just one of those things. And I love when that happens, you know, serendipity and something just came together.

And we've actually become good friends since then. And she was there for launch and I just loved the way it just seemed to all come together. Even though there was a lot of frustrations with formatting and you know how that stuff goes. It's sometimes more frustrating than you think. And then getting it on Amazon is another challenge, but it all got done. It all got done by November of 2021. Then I was able to launch it on 11/11. So yeah. So there we are. So I'm really happy with that.

And the feedback that I'm getting is, you know, they really love it. As you've mentioned before, too, is, whether it's the 30 seconds or the 30 minutes, I kind of give you quick prompts. And you can do with it what you like without it being too daunting, because I know some people think," oh my God, I don't have time to color and write and all this stuff." So people make it what they want.

Passionistas: So is there one particular lesson that you've learned along your journey that really sticks with you?

CinDi: The word that's coming to me is flexibility. But that word, sometimes it has a negative connotation, and I don't mean it in that way. And I think it's served me well. And I think because of what I've been through in my childhood, and I think also being the third child, I just learned that. And while I think it may at times, and when I was younger, I used to think that that was not a good trait to have. I think now that I'm older, it's my sanity.

Because as you know, when we talk... go back to talking about stress, a lot of stress, and I do this to myself, you know. As I say, a lot of stress, all stress is really in our minds, and we are always thinking about it or getting anxious about the stress. So flexibility, especially at this stage is allowing me to say, "okay, this didn't work this way, so we're going to go this way." Or I'm really feeling now that things happen for a reason and that life will guide. You know, you can't control everything. So life will guide you. If you have some faith, be flexible.

Passionistas: Thanks for listening to The Passionistas Project Podcast and our interview with CinDiLo. To read her blog, find out about her workshops for Gen X women and get a copy of the weekly journal "When the Clock Strikes Midlife, It's Your Time to Shine," visit whentheclockstrikesmidlife.com, and follow her on Instagram @whentheclockstrikesmidlife to share your #myfirsttimeover50 adventure.

Please visit thepassionistasproject.com to learn more about our podcast and subscription box filled with products made by women owned businesses and female artisans to inspire you to follow your passions. Get a free mystery box with a one-year subscription using the code SUMMERGOODIES.

And be sure to subscribe to The Passionistas Project Podcast, so you don't miss any of our upcoming, inspiring guests. Until next time, stay well and stay passionate.

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Tara McCann is a menstrual health coach. Her mission is to help women use the power of their menstrual cycles to tune into what their bodies need. Tara guides women to identify patterns in their menstrual cycles and helps them find ways to support their health. Her goal is for women to live in the flow of their hormones and to stop fighting with the natural functions of their bodies.

Learn more about Tara.

Learn more about The Passionistas Project.

FULL TRANSCRIPT:

Passionistas: Hi, and welcome to The Passionistas Project Podcast, where we talk with women who are following their passions to inspire you to do the same. We're Amy and Nancy Harrington and today we're talking with Tara McCann, a menstrual health coach who helps women use the power of their menstrual cycles to tune into what their bodies need.

Tara guides women to identify patterns in their menstrual cycles, and find ways to support their health so they live in the flow of their hormones and stop fighting with their bodies.

So please welcome to the show, Tara McCann.

This is such an important topic that no one ever talks about. And we're so grateful that you are joining us today to educate us a little bit and to help us spread the word about something that's so important for women.

Tara: It is, and it really isn't talked about very much. And that's one of the things when I do speak on this, women come up to me and I'm like, "why was I never taught this as a child? Why have I, you know, I'm 45 years old and no one ever told me this was happening in my body." And so I think it is valuable information.

I think it's been missing from our growth and development and education, and I am on a mission to teach people all of the things.

Passionistas: So what's the one thing you're most passionate about?

Tara: You know, I think the biggest thing that I'm passionate about is women shifting from just enduring their menstrual cycle to really understanding and knowing themselves in a very different way through their menstrual cycle.

It's the space where we tap into our intuition. It's where we are powerful in our wisdom. It's our creative force and power in the world. And for so many of us, we are taught the exact opposite of that. And so really, what I'm passionate about, is telling women about this and watching their growth as they start to understand that.

I love women coming through my programs and be like, "oh my God, look what I just did!" And, "I understand this. I understand why I've done this for years." And then they can give themselves grace. They can give themselves understanding, and then they just start to move through the world differently. They're not fighting with themselves anymore. And so I just love supporting women through that transition.

Passionistas: So, what was your childhood like? And was this something that you were comfortable talking about with your parents at a young age?

Tara: No, not at all. So I probably had a very similar experience to you. Like I think it was fifth grade that they separated the boys and the girls. And the girls went with the nurse and the boys went, I don't know who they went with, but you know, the nurse basically explained, "you're going to have your period, and you're going to bleed and then it's going to hurt. And here's a pad and here's a pamphlet from this, you know, maker of products that is going to tell you all about it."

And then that's basically it. And I don't remember having conversations with my mom about it. Definitely not my dad, like that was, you know, not going to talk to him about it for sure. But I don't remember having conversations with my mother about it, like other than, "Hey, I need more tampons" or "Hey, can you go get me some more medicine to take care of my period pain." But there wasn't a lot of conversation about what was going on in my body, how things changed through the month, how it was going to feel. And I think part of it is she was never taught. It wasn't something she was taught. So it was not something she taught me. It was not a conversation we had.

And so I had that one experience in school. For me, like my first period, I was so excited. I was like, "oh my God, I'm a woman." And I just had this feeling of belonging to something bigger than myself and that finally I was part of the club or something. It was... and I remember feeling that. But then, as it progressed, it was like, "oh, you're not supposed to feel that way. It's painful." And you know, all the magazines I read as a kid were like, "take this medicine because it's so painful and here's your perfect pad for the blue liquid we pour on it." And you know, all of this messaging from around me and, you know, people teasing you about, "well, what are you on the rag?" And so you want to hide it and the shame and just all those things started piling on.

So that initial power and excitement and that feeling I had was just kind of piled on. And it went away and it was hidden for a really long time because I didn't want to talk about it. I was like, "oh no, we don't talk about this. Okay. I can do that." So yeah, that was my early experience with this. And I think that's true for a lot of women in the world.

Passionistas: So, you said you didn't start to understand some of the stuff until you were in your forties. So then what was your early career or were you a full-time mom back then? Or what was your earlier years like between, you know, high school and the time you started working with fertility information?

Tara: So, you know, I, had my cycle and it was fine. And it was like, I take the Advil for the pain and, and then I just have my cycle and no, I don't like it. And it's a mess. And, you know, just kind of those general feelings of it's something I have to put up with. I didn't have the experience of having really horrific period pain or really heavy flow. It was just... it was there for me. And, you know, it was kind of a nuisance, but not really a nuisance.

I didn't have super strong feelings about. But what really started me on this path was my husband and I started having a family, you know, decided to have a family. And in my experience with my cycle, I had always been really regular. And I was healthy. My husband was healthy. I'm like, "oh, we're going to get pregnant, you know, we'll be pregnant in months. You know, just a few months and we'll be pregnant." And months turned into a year, turned into two years, turned into two and a half years and reproductive medicine.

But during that time I found menstrual cycle tracking through a book called "Taking Charge of Your Fertility." And so I started paying really close attention to my cycle in the aspect of fertility. Like when am I going to ovulate? And when is the best time that we could get pregnant and just riding that rollercoaster of, okay, "we got to get geared up, you know, I'm going to ovulate soon." And so " we had to go have sex and we gotta be prepared for this." And then that two week wait of just sitting there, like, "am I pregnant? What does that twinge." Or "wait, wait, I don't know what that is." And then that devastating crash when your period comes, like just that utter crash. That like, "oh my gosh, what is wrong with me? Why am I broken? Why can everyone else in the world get pregnant and I cannot?" You know, what's going on? But also having to switch gears really fast, cause guess what? You're going to ovulate again really soon and you've got to get going again.

And so it's just this up and down and up and down. And, so that was really challenging. But through that, and through my tracking, I really came to understand my cycle well. And I'm a scientist by nature, and I'm trained as an occupational therapist, so I had worked in occupational therapy for a really long time. So I have a science background and have always been fascinated by the human body and the amazing things that the human body can do.

And so I really dug into this. Learning about my cycle and learning what was going on for my body. I knew I didn't have enough progesterone in my cycle, basically. And I had worked with acupuncturists and I had changed what I was eating all through this fertility journey. And we were in reproductive medicine and we were doing intrauterine insemination. And we had come to the last one we were going to do. The next time we tried something, it was going to be IVF.

And so in that moment, you know, you're sitting there on the crinkly seat, waiting for your insemination, with the freezing cold room. I don't know why the rooms can't be warmer, you know, shivering in your little thing that doesn't cover your back. And I asked for progesterone. In my mind, I was like, "this is our last chance to try this." And I know this is what my body needs. And so the tracking for me really became that supportive piece that I could advocate for myself. I knew my body and I trusted what I knew about my body. I trusted what the tracking had taught me about my body. And so I said, "can we add progesterone to my regimen this cycle?"

And my doctor was like, well, he had already shoved off my charts before. He's like, "I don't need those. I don't need to look at those." Which in his world, he doesn't because he's controlling the situation, right? And that's what that reproductive medicine specialty is about. He's like, "well, I don't think it's going to hurt, but I don't think it's going to help either." He wasn't, "no, you can't do that." But I didn't feel like he was like completely on board with it. But I asked.

And I got the progesterone and I got pregnant and we had a baby 10 months later. So, you know, that was what I needed. And so that was really what started this journey with tracking for me. And then my two girls were born pretty close together. And so I had been pregnant or breastfeeding or trying to be pregnant for four or five years. And my health was not great after all of that.

And so I went to a health coach and found a health coach for my own health and was like, this is really what I wanted. I wanted this support when I was trying to get pregnant. Like I wanted somebody there every week who I could talk to about what was going on in my own body and who was going to help me. Because I knew my body could do more, but I didn't know what to do at the time. And so I was just trying to Google everything and throw all of it at it. Not hardly having tons of guidance. So I went to coaching school and my first jump into coaching was fertility coaching and helping preconception coaching, you know, people getting ready for pregnancy.

And then a couple of years ago, I started talking in the mom-owned business networking group. I started talking about cycles and how you can use your menstrual cycle to be more productive in your business. And women just started coming to me and like," why did I never hear this information before?" And so that really spurred me to broaden my message to menstrual cycles in all ways. And not just fertility though, I still do fertility work and it's very near and dear to my heart. But just also talking in the broader realm of menstrual cycle.

Passionistas: Talk more about that concept that tracking your cycles can help you with productivity.

Tara: In our menstrual cycles, our hormones shift and change every single day. So there's this, you know, big ups and downs that are happening. And we have grown up in a society where we think we get up in the morning, we go to work, we work all day long and you know, do all our work. We come home, we go to sleep, get up the next morning, rinse and repeat over and over again. Every day should be the same.

Our bodies don't work like that. Because we may get up one day and have all of the energy. And then the next day we're like, "where did all that energy go? It's gone." And that's... our hormones are shifting in our bodies and that's shifting what we can do.

So, when we're thinking about our periods and the time that we're having our bleed, our hormones are really low. And so that's really kind of a time for quiet and for rest and for that introspection that I talked about. Because the way that our hormones are balanced during that time, it's a great time to evaluate, see what's working and what's not working, and think about what are my intentions for this next month? So it's not that nothing is happening during that time. It's not that you're not being productive. You're being productive in a different way.

And then moving through the cycle, the next part of the cycle is after your bleeding, but before your egg is released. And during that time, your estrogen is rising. And during that time, your hormones are supporting you to do things like writing. Or to do things like planning and thinking of big ideas and outlining things. And it's also a really creative time, so brainstorming is really good. And thinking about all the different ways to do something can feel like essence of ease during that time.

And then ovulation is that time when you're putting yourself out in the world. And so things like presentations can be really good, or if you have to have a hard conversation with someone. Because of the way your hormones are balanced, you are very open and receptive and your verbal skills are really good. And so if you want to go ask for a raise or if you need to talk to a coworker or a parent or a partner, you know, this is a really great time to kind of plan for those conversations because of the way that you are hormonally supported during that time.

And then after ovulation: our luteal phase. So that's the time from ovulation to our next period. That's really a time when we're kind of getting things done, like checking things off the list, detail oriented type things. And so, cleaning out your closet or cleaning out the pantry or. Filing your taxes or doing data entry and things like that can be something that's really supported.

So when you start to move through over a longer timeframe, you're getting all the things done, but you're not fighting with yourself to get those things done. And so that's one of the really powerful pieces of understanding how you move through your cycle, understanding what's true for you and what feels like ease and what feels a little harder during different times in your cycle, so that you can think ahead and plan ahead and decide, "oh, you know, I'd really love to record a podcast during my ovulatory time so that I'm speaking and my words are flowing" and things like that.

So it really helps you to plan ahead so don't spend so much time fighting with yourself and like, "why can't I get this done today?" I was like, "well, today not may not be the day." But what about in a week from now? You could batch four of your newsletters or whatever that might be. So just thinking about it in a longer, cyclical way that ease is going to come back again.

Passionistas: So what is the actual tracking? Is it as simple as "this is the day my period started" and going from there? Or are there other things that you track as well?

Tara: When I'm teaching people to track, we start by tracking just two or three things, because there's a lot that you can track depending on what information you are wanting.

So you can track your energy levels. You can track your sleep, you can track how does exercise feel? How does your movement practice feel? Do you have food cravings? Are there sometimes you're really hungry or not so hungry? Do you have certain days that you have headaches? So there's a lot of different things, depending on what's happening in your body.

One of the places we often start is energy. So what does your energy feel like? How is your energy today? What kind of things did you get done? What felt easy? And then as you move through the cycle, like, okay, where are you in your cycle? Those hormones that shifted and move, what's underlying that. So how do you support your body to flow through that cycle, and to support your body to be able to move through fluidly without forcing things.

Passionistas: We're Amy and Nancy Harrington and you're listening to The Passionistas Project Podcast and our interview with Tara McCann. To learn more about tracking your menstrual cycle and to download the free cycle tracker, visit taramccannwellness.com.

If you're enjoying this interview and would like to help us to continue creating inspiring content, please consider becoming a patron by visiting thepassionistasproject.com/podcast and clicking on the patron button. Even $5 a month can help us continue our mission of inspiring women to follow their passions. Now here's more of our interview with Tara.

How does what is learned during your work apply to women who are in menopause or post-menopause? Is there still work that they can do?

Tara: There is actually. One of the programs I do is actually using the moon as that cyclical rhythm. Because if a woman is post-menopausal or perimenopausal, when their cycle is maybe not consistent anymore, or post-menopausal when they no longer have a cycle. Some women who are on hormonal birth control don't have cycles. You can use that rhythm of the moon to plan and to create that flow of energy and the different tasks that might feel easy so that you're really prioritizing that rest and prioritizing the different types of like creative work or speaking work, or just getting things done. Because as women even if we're not cycling, we have this imprint of the cycle.

We have this just knowing of the cycle because we are cyclical beings and we have been, and we've always been. And so tapping back into that cyclical rhythm, you can do that even without having that indicator of having a physical bleed. Like even if you've had a hysterectomy, but you still have your ovaries, you're probably still cycling. You just might not know it because you don't have that indicator. So you can also track with the moon until you figure out what your body's signals are of those different parts of your cycle. That's the other way that I talk about and use tracking.

Passionistas: So the best way to get started is to sort of start keeping a journal then of your energy levels, your hunger, your cravings... things like that.?

Tara: Yeah, you can. I created just a paper tracker with a paper and pencil because I'm a paper and pencil gal. I like to be able to see that... I like to be able to compare one to the other, right, side-by-side. Because then you can say, oh, look on day 10 of my cycle, this happens. On day 22 of my cycle, this happens. And so you can compare month to month.

There's lots of, you know, online trackers out there as well. So if you are a, you know, you want to do it on an app, there's lots of apps out there. Or I've had lots of women create spreadsheets. Sometimes that can get a little expansive because they'll start with like two things. And then they're like, "oh, I wonder about this and this." And suddenly they've got like 15 things that they're tracking every day. And so that's why I recommend, you know, honing in, or what are the most important things that you're wanting to understand about your body in this time and space?

And some of the things you can track simultaneously. Like if you're having period pain, that's only going to be on a certain number of days. So you could track period pain with how heavy your flow is, and also your energy level and your sleep, like your sleep patterns and see if that changes. So there's ways to kind of incorporate more than one, cause they may not be on every day. And then once you have like a really good understanding and a really good knowledge of, "oh, my body typically does this around this time," then you can add another layer.

Then you can add in, okay how does movement feel? How does it feel when I do a really strenuous exercise during the time that I'm bleeding? Like, does that feel good or does that not feel good? Does that feel supportive or not supportive? And so you can start to understand that too, and plan your movement or other things during the timeframe or during your cycle.

Passionistas: Do you have like one or two success stories from the women that you've worked with, where you've seen, like, just this major transformation?

Tara: Yeah, there's a couple. So I had one woman who tracked... there's many, but we'll go with a couple. So there was one woman who tracked with me last spring and she had had heavy periods and really debilitating period pain for years and years and years. And she just assumed it was normal... assumed that it was what happened. And so she started tracking with me and shortly into our time together, she had her period. And she got into a situation where she was taking Advil and then she couldn't get the period pain to stop and then was taking more Advil. And just her body got more and more pain. And then she didn't feel good. Got sick. Had to go to the emergency room... was, you know, all of these things. And she had just moved to a new space. So she didn't have an established practice with a doctor. So she couldn't get more pain medication to help alleviate what was going on for her.

So, it was that situation that she was kind of stuck with. But she realized in the group setting we were in-- we were in a group of four women-- and another woman in that space had been an ovarian cancer survivor. And so both of us were talking about, you know what, this much pain is not normal. Like there is pain involved. There can be pain involved, but there's a lot you can do to less en that. But this much is a lot and you need to go find someone who will listen to you.

And so what tracking did for her, was it really allowed her to advocate for herself. She found a doctor. She found a space where... you know, cause she was within that 30 day period that we were checking together. She's like, "I'm going to have another period. And what am I going to do then? Cause I'm still not established with a doctor." So, you know, she was creating a plan for, "okay, can I talk to my old doctor?" And "how do I take care of myself?" And then she was able to find a really good doctor and get in with them, even though they were further away because she got a recommendation from someone else in the group and was really able to establish care with someone who would listen to her.

And so I think that was a really big transformation for her... being able to know what's going on. And, you know, she had gotten some pain medication and then she was like, "oh my gosh, is this what it's supposed to feel like? Is this what it feels like to not be in such excruciating pain? Is this what typically, you know, people experience during a flow? Cause I've never had this little pain before."

Passionistas: So aside from the pain, what are some of the other myths about menstruation that really need to be debunked?

Tara: So pain is one of them. That's one of the biggest ones that you have to endure your cycle and that it's painful.

You know, the other big myths are the shame around it, that it's something you shouldn't talk about. It's something that should be hidden. And one of the women in one of my communities was... her transition over the 30 days with it, she realized that it was just this natural process that her body went through and such forgiveness for her body and understanding that this is something that is natural and wonderful that's happening to her. But she had also had a lot of pain in her cycles as well. And so coming to a different space with what your body feels like. So, you know, shame and the myth of that and wanting to hide it.

I think one of the things that I experienced going through my fertility journey was, I think at the beginning we talked about, you know, when you first get your period and you're fearful of pregnancy and like, you don't want to get pregnant and all of that fear that surrounds that. And so, you know, there's birth control and there's ways to prevent pregnancy. And we live in this kind of like, "oh my God, you know, did I have... we had a pregnancy scare" or "I think I might be pregnant even though we're on birth control."

And so there's like this holding that happens. And then when we go to get pregnant and we're like, "oh, I stopped the birth control. It'll be fine. I'll just get pregnant right away." Because there's this fear that we could get pregnant at any moment. And then when we stop, we're like, "of course I'll get pregnant right away because I can get pregnant at any moment." And then our bodies have changed, or sometimes we go on... women go on birth control at a very young age because they're having difficulties in their flow or difficulties with pain or heavy periods or things like that. And instead of looking at the underlying cause of what's going on, they're just put on medication, which just kind of masks it. And then when they come off of the medicine to get pregnant, that underlying whatever it was is still there. And their body has to adjust to coming off the birth control and then it takes a long time to get pregnant.

And then there's that feeling of "what is wrong with me and what's wrong with my body and why can't I get pregnant?" And so it just kind of piles on top of each other.

Passionistas: So how can people work with you? How can women that want to get in touch with you do that? And what services do you offer specifically?

Tara: My signature program is called Tracking With Friends, and it's a 30 day program where we track our menstrual cycles together. And we get on together every day, and I give you a little video and a little meditation for you to check in. And then each person gets to do an individual check-in. So we create this sense of community around talking about our periods.

Because for so many of us, we don't have a space. There's no space where we can go and talk about it. And so this small community of women-- it's usually three to five women tracking together-- is that community where nothing is TMI. You know, we talk about all the things and it's just this amazing container that happens. And women get to know each other so well and so quickly in this space.

And so as we track together, I'm going through with each person, like this is where you are in your cycle. This is what might be going on underlying in the hormones. So this is something you might want to keep track of moving forward. So there's the accountability piece to it. And then once a week, we get together, live on Zoom and talk about, you know, "okay, here's what's going on in your hormones." And I do a little bit of teaching, but it's also just a lot of sharing of all of the things that are happening in cycles.

And then I also do one-on-one coaching. So women who really want to dive in and support their hormones and figure out what's going on. So when I talk about, you know, that period pain is really common, but it's not normal. Like we shouldn't be in so much pain. There's a lot we can do to support our bodies with nutrition and the foods we eat and taking care of our gut and taking care of inflammation and sleep and movement and all of those things that I can help women to create and help them understand what's going on. First of all, understanding their own bodies and then making those small shifts that are going to have really big impacts in the way that their cycles flow.

Passionistas: You mentioned that you're a member of MOB Nation. So can you talk a little bit about that organization and what it's meant to you?

Tara: Yeah. The Mom Owned Business, MOB Nation. And so it's a group of mom owned business owners, entrepreneurs who... it's a supportive network of women. So it's networking, but it's so much more than networking because yes, there is... there's incredible support for your business and, you know, MOB economy. Because you know, the tagline is that "There's a mob for that." Because there is. There's another mom owned business that you can buy from for just about everything. And so our directors have created a directory of mom owned businesses, and so you can find someone to buy from.

And so we've created this whole economy where we buy from each other and support each other's businesses. And then even beyond that business support, it really is support for your whole life and your whole being and who you are. And the MOB Alliance, which is the paid version of the MOB Nation is really this close knit group of women who... you know, you can hop on at two in the morning and be like, "this is going wrong and this is going wrong and I can't," you know, "I need somebody." There will probably be another MOB on that can hop on and support you and supporting women through, you know, their grief or closing their business. Or, you know, in this pandemic, it's been an incredible lifeline for staying connected with other business owners, you know, because we've gone virtual and been able to support each other in that way.

And so it is a networking group and it is a, you know, supportive life group as well, I would say. So, so much more than just networking.

Passionistas: Is there anything else you want women to know that we haven't asked you about?

Tara: I think one of the things that we touched on a little bit, but not too much, is the fact that there is this physical piece, there is this hormonal piece to the way that our bodies move and flow. But there's also this energetic, spiritual piece, this connection to our wisdom, that we flow through and that our cycles can be, I don't want to say a tool because that's, you know, tool feels very like masculine. You know, like this is a tool.

It's not. It's a process and it's a journey and we can use the, you know, the life and death and rebirth that happens with a cycle, right? Every month our uterine lining sheds, we grow an egg and mature an egg, and then that egg and the lining gets shut again. And then we are reborn again. And so it can be a really supportive process for our growth and expansion in the world.

And so not just with that physical cycle, but that creative process that I was talking about. That creation in the world and staying in alignment with the world. And then using that time when things are getting broken down, using our cycle as that supportive, grounding space that we know that even as things break down, you're going to be reborn into what's next. And that the cycle just continues and goes on and that you are always supported by it and with it. And it's that constant companion grounding force for ourselves.

Passionistas: Thanks for listening to our interview with Tara McCann. To learn more about tracking your menstrual cycle and to download the free cycle tracker visit taramccannwellness.com.

Please visit thepassionistasproject.com to learn more about our podcast and subscription box, filled with products made by women owned businesses and female artisans to inspire you to follow your passions.

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Sara Fins is an accountant, financial coach and mom of two who helps solopreneurs and small business owners discover how simple it can be to take control of their business finances. In doing so, Sara helps them save time, stress less and keep more of the money they earn. Sara is the creator of Easy Business Bookkeeping, a course and system that teaches business owners how to keep track of their business finances and prepare for tax season confidently and with ease.

Learn more about Sara.

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FULL TRANSCRIPT:

Passionistas: Hi, and welcome to The Passionistas Project Podcast, where we talk with women who are following their passions to inspire you to do the same. We're Amy and Nancy Harrington, and today we're talking with Sara Fins, an accountant, financial coach, and mom of two. She helps solopreneurs and small business owners discover how simple it can be to take control of their business finances so that they can save time, stress less, and keep more of the money that they earn.

Sara is the creator of Easy Business Bookkeeping, a course and system that teaches business owners how to track their business finances and prepare for tax time confidently and with ease. So please welcome to the show, Sara Fins.

So Sara, what's the one thing you're most passionate about.

Sara: The one thing I'm most passionate about is empowering entrepreneurs to learn to manage the finances of their business, so that they know that they can do it themselves and feel confident in that area of their business. Because I feel like once that's unlocked for them, they can take their business wherever they want it to go.

Passionistas: And why is that a passion of yours?

Sara: I started out as an accountant in my previous, previous life. And then I went into health coaching and I became a health coach before circling back to do finance coaching. And what I found during that time is that so many of my colleagues were amazing at the coaching. They were so passionate about what they were doing. But when it came to the number side of their business, they were either afraid to look. They didn't know what to do. They felt uncomfortable. They felt overwhelmed by it.

And it was preventing many of them from moving forward in their businesses. And so I discovered that. If they had that knowledge, it kind of unblocked a whole new path for them. And they could feel more confident moving forward because they were actually able to make the money they needed to make their businesses businesses as opposed to hobbies.

And so that's kind of how I came about that. And I just realized by seeing the transformation in their businesses and their selves, that this was something that could really help them, and then, on the, you know, the ripple effect, help their clients and help other people and other women succeed.

Passionistas: Let's take a step back. Tell us about your childhood, where you grew up and were you always interested in math?

Sara: So I'm from Long Island, New York. I grew up in Suffolk County and when I was young, there were lots of farms around where I lived. And, you know, over time it's become more suburban. But I went to college in Pennsylvania. And then I studied accounting and I actually, wasn't always interested in numbers. I really was interested in psychology and I was interested in those types of classes. And that's where I excelled. However, the practical side of my brain said, you need to have a good job.

So I had an uncle who's an accountant, you know, very successful. And so I thought, Hmm, okay, let me try this. And I went into accounting and I just jumped right in and I graduated with a degree in accounting. And then I went and got my CPA and I worked in various corporate accounting roles in New York City. And then also moved to London and worked in London and lived abroad for a couple of years.

And when my daughter was born, I resigned from the position that I was in and went back to school to get my health coaching certification, because that was always something I was really passionate about. And it kind of pulled back in the interest I had in helping people from when I was young. You know, I wanted to be into psychology and helping professions.

And I wasn't feeling that from the accounting rules that I was in. And so I, you know, merged my passion for health with my passion for business and helping people. And I started my health coaching practice. Then I ran that practice for 10 years and it went really well. But like I mentioned earlier, I discovered through that time that I could really help from a finance perspective, because what came easy for me in those two areas, other people were struggling with.

And so that's kind of the long story of how I got to where I am right now. We moved back from being abroad and have been living in Long Island, more Western Long Island, closer to New York City for the past 10 years now.

Passionistas: And what was that time living abroad like? What brought you overseas and did you enjoy that time?

Sara: Yes. We really enjoyed that time. I was newly married at the time. My husband and I had just gotten married. And he's actually an accountant as well. We met at work years ago. And so I was working, actually, in a recruiting role, at the time, recruiting accounting professionals. And so he got a job offer with his company to move there and I was able to transfer with the company I was working for at the time.

And so, you know, we were young, we had just gotten married. We didn't have any children yet. And so we lived in London for two years. That was so much fun, especially working in an office environment there because it gives you such a different perspective than just being kind of an ex-pat, you know. And then we wound up actually moving to Paris because the company that my husband worked for was, is a French company. He actually still works for them in a different capacity today, and they wanted us to be... wanted him to be in Paris.

And so when my daughter, well, I may have jumped ahead a little bit, but my daughter was born in London. So while we were there, we wound up having my daughter. And when she was about six months old, we moved to Paris and lived there for about two years as well. Which was equally amazing. However, we had a little baby, so we didn't do quite as much traveling or quite as many things as we had done in London. But that was the point where I resigned from the company and went back to school for health coaching. It felt like a really good time. I could be home with my daughter while also pursuing this second career of mine.

And we came home because we found out we were having our second child and felt like we just needed to be back closer to family. So we were kind of feeling that pull. So that's what, that's what brought us back to the United States.

Passionistas: So, now tell us the name of your current company and what services you provide.

Sara: Currently, my company is Sara Fins Coaching. And so what I do is financial coaching for solopreneurs, and small business owners. And so the main thing that I offer right now is I have a course called Easy Business Bookkeeping.

And in that course, I built a very user-friendly basic spreadsheet template that I teach business owners to use to track their expenses, their revenue, and then categorize everything for tax purposes. And so it's really to help them track everything. Either, if they're not ready to outsource yet to a bookkeeper. You know, many coaches, I find even ones that have been in business for a long time, don't need to, because there's not that much, you know, going on in a business. As opposed to, if you have a company where you're manufacturing products and things like that. And so it's designed to really help them manage their finances and then get ready for tax time.

And also use the information, like I said earlier, to have the information they need to know. What offerings they have that they might want to focus on that are bringing them in more money. Where they might be spending, you know, money they don't need to be spending. Or, you know, do they have money to invest in certain things for their business? And so I teach that all within the easy business bookkeeping course.

And then I also do offer some one-on-one coaching. If someone really wants to talk through, kind of, how to personalize that very closely for their own business. How to set things up for themselves. And then if they're just at the point where, they just don't want to do it themselves. I help them get set up by taking their information and putting it all into the spreadsheet and getting them ready and then teaching them how to do it on a going forward basis.

So what I don't do, is I don't do the bookkeeping for them. Because as I talked about before, it's really bad empowerment. I want to empower business owners to look at those numbers and see what's going on and get really, really comfortable with their business finances.

Passionistas: And, you know, money can be an emotional and stressful topic for a lot of people. So how does the psychology and coaching training that you've had over the years factor into the services you provide?

Sara: Yeah, absolutely. The coaching training I've had has been invaluable in that respect. And then also, as being a business owner myself and being on the other side of it and running my health coaching practice for so long, I really know what they're going through from that perspective.

And although I didn't struggle with the financial management because I went into it having the background in accounting, I understand some of the challenges that come up as well. But yes, what I find is, that a lot of the times, what's keeping business owners from managing their finances or from looking at their finances and getting deep into the numbers is fear, like you mentioned.

Either, they're worried that there might not be enough money. They might not be bringing in enough money. They're worried that they just don't have the skills; they don't know how, they have to be a numbers person or an accountant to do that. Or they just don't have time. Right? So I try, in my coaching and in my programs, to create a really safe space, so that, any question they can ask is not a silly question.

Everyone has to start from somewhere. And I compare it to, you know, what you've learned in your business and what you bring to your clients you didn't know when you started out, right? So it's something that you cultivated over time. And it's the same with getting comfortable with your finances. You have to start with something little. Just look at your bank statement every month and take a look at what's going on in there and then move on to the next thing. It doesn't have to be all or nothing. And you don't have to. And in fact, you can't be an expert overnight, right? It's impossible.

So I try to create a safe space where, they can ask any questions they have, you know. And I have built into my programs... support. You know, we have a Facebook group. They can email me. One thing we also do, is we do monthly money dates. So basically I have a dedicated time each month where we meet on zoom and it's like a study hall just to give the participants time to, you know, look at their numbers.

And so that's to create the container so that they actually have a time dedicated to do it. So, yeah, so it's a blend of, kind of, using the coaching skills and then using also my accounting skills to empower them with the knowledge to make decisions about deductions and you know, how do I classify this revenue? How do I classify this expense? The basics of that as well.

Passionistas: What do you find is the biggest financial mistake that most small business owners make?

Sara: I think the biggest mistake is that they don't become familiar with their numbers. So either they outsource it to a friend, or a partner, a spouse, or, you know, a bookkeeper, which absolutely has its place in certain businesses, I think. But it's really important that, you know, what's going on there yourself. And so technical mistakes can always be corrected, right? Like I was just talking yesterday on one of my classes that if you're categorizing your deductions and you accidentally put it in the wrong category, it's not the end of the world. Like it can always be fixed.

But if you don't know what's going on with your business financially, three years down the line, you can wind up not being able to even keep the doors open because you haven't paid attention to what is going on there. And so if you do nothing else, I think it's really important to know what's going on there. And that's the biggest mistake I make is people just kind of turning a blind eye or thinking, oh, I'll deal with it later. Or that it's not as important as it really is.

Passionistas: As a female entrepreneur yourself, is there something that you wish you knew when you started your business that you've learned along the way?

Sara: Oh, so many things I learned along the way. I mean, again, as it relates to finances, another thing that I see quite often from the women business owners I work with-- and most of the people that I do work with are female business owners-- is that they lack the confidence around numbers. So for whatever reason, whether it was their parents or whether they grew up just... you know, in our society, we're told like math is for boys, numbers are for boys. And that translates into, at least what I see, a lack of confidence around managing that side of their businesses.

I hear a lot of times, like, I just want to work with the clients. I just want someone else to do all that stuff for me. You know, it's great to outsource all for that, once you're at a space where you can do that. But it's important to have the confidence yourself around knowing that part of your business.

And then also charging what you're worth, because that's another aspect of it. If you don't know that you're not making enough money from this course, and you don't feel like you have the right to kind of ask for that money, you're not going to charge appropriately. So on kind of the same bucket, right? And then you're not going to be able to keep your business sustainable for long enough to keep it, to keep it going.

So, yeah, the confidence, I think. And I discovered that, you know, all through my business, that even I had to work on that in some respects. Like when I was making a proposal for, you know, to do a talk or something like that. And it's always kind of like, "oh, well, what's your budget?" You know, something like that, it's hard to sometimes speak up and say, "this is what I charged for X, and this is what I charged for this." and so I think we need to, or at least the clients I see and myself, practice that muscle of kind of standing in the power of saying, "this is what I'm charging and this is why." And it's okay.

Passionistas: We're Amy and Nancy Harrington, and you're listening to The Passionistas Project Podcast and our interview with Sara Fins.

To discover how simple it can be to take control of your business finances, visit sarafins.com. You can hang out with Sara in her free Facebook group, the Easy Business Bookkeeping Community, or on Instagram and Facebook at Easy Business Bookkeeping.

If you're enjoying this interview and would like to help us continue creating inspiring content, please consider becoming a patron by visiting thepassionistasproject.com/podcast and clicking on the patron button. Even $5 a month can help us continue our mission of inspiring women to follow their passions.

Now here's more interview with Sara Fins.

Is there an example of a success story that you've worked with someone who's come to you that was a complete mess and figured it out and flourished?

Sara: Yeah, there are a lot of them, which, you know, makes me really happy. I did this business pivot just before COVID and then I kind of took a step back because it wasn't the right time. And I jumped back into it maybe a year-ish should go. And just in that short amount of time, I've seen a lot of transformation. So this has been the first, kind of, full year that many of my clients have been using the system. And so they're coming back to me and letting me know that they're already ready for taxes. So, you know, it's February and they've already got their numbers. Whereas in the past they would spend an entire day with their receipts and trying to, you know, get it all ready in time. And so I've heard a few stories lately about that. How everybody's feeling prepared, and their tax accountants are so happy that they have this, you know, buttoned up thing to show them.

I have another client of mine, Lisa, who was using QuickBooks. For those of you who don't know, it's an accounting system that... really it's geared towards accountants, but they also market it towards late people. So a lot of people think, "oh, I have to get this for my business." And then they pay a lot of money to have somebody set it up for them properly, which, you have to have help with that because it's complicated to do it yourself, unless you're an accountant. And then oftentimes it's too much. And so they never do it because every time they think about going into the program and using it, it's very overwhelming.

So Lisa was using QuickBooks when she came to me. And she's like, "it's fine, but I never want to do it. I don't have everything up to date in there. It overwhelms me. I'm paying all this money. I don't even need to be paying this money." And so, she started using my program and she came back to me not too long ago about a recent launch that she had. And she said to me, 'I had my best year ever. And I truly believe that if I hadn't been on top of them by finances, looking at those numbers as my launches were happening, and as I was going through, I wouldn't have even had the motivation to push for those higher numbers of enrollments. And I wouldn't have known how well I was doing.' And so at the end of the year, she's like, 'I've made the most money in my business this year than all the other years past. And I think it's in part to my confidence around my finances.'

So that's my favorite client to talk about because she's really rocking it. And she got rid of QuickBooks because it wasn't meeting her needs. And so she stopped paying for it. So she saved money on that end too.

Passionistas: Financially or not financially, what do you think your best habit is?

Sara: I would say my best habit is time management, and that's something I've cultivated a lot over the years. I mean, I think, you know, you learn a little bit each time as you go along, but then as a business owner, you learn it for sure. And then as a parent, and a business owner, you learn it also. Because before I had kids, you know, you feel like you have all the time in the world. But then you have your children and you realize you don't because your schedule is not entirely yours.

And so it's gotten very, very good at managing my tasks and managing my time. And when I'm working, I'm working. And when I'm not working, you know, I'm trying not to work. That's, that's another story. But when I'm dedicated to those hours that I'm actually working, I'm really good about prioritizing what I need to do and turning off distractions so that I can just get it done. So that's been a, you know, that's been something I've been cultivating for a number of years.

Passionistas: What advice would you give to your younger self?

Sara: Don't be afraid to take risks and to be, you know, a little bit risk averse. And I think if I had taken more risks, maybe I would have, you know, gone into psychology, for example, even though it wasn't, in my mind, a safe career, you know. However reason I thought that in my twenties, I don't know. But, you know. So I think taking more risks in my career path and maybe in the jobs I was in and in the earlier stages of my business. I think that would be one thing that I would tell my younger self.

And then the other thing that I would tell my younger self is to get help. So when I started my business, I waited too long to reach out to people who could train me to do the things I didn't need to do... that I didn't know how to do. I remember floundering for the first like year in terms of marketing and really just like throwing spaghetti at the wall and trying to figure out what was happening and what I should be doing. And then once I invested in a program that taught me a marketing framework, it was a game changer. So, you know, don't wait so long to reach out for help in the areas that you need support in.

Passionistas: Have you ever suffered a professional setback that seemed devastating at the time, but actually ended up being a blessing?

Sara: The first company I worked for in my accounting days, went out of business. And at that time, my office wasn't involved in the scandal, a different state, but the whole company closed. And at that time it felt like, "what's going to happen now? Am I going to have a job?" I was in my twenties, you know, I was about to get married. I didn't know what was happening.

And then that opened a lot of doors because the next job I took introduced me to, you know, the person who would eventually hire me for the recruiting role. And then that helped me to move abroad. And it just was kind of a domino effect from there. And that enabled me to go back and follow my passion to have my own business.

So, yeah, but at the time it was like, "uh oh." Because when I was growing up and when I was in college, you know, your path was you get a job in corporate and you work in New York city and that's what you do for the rest of your life. And so if that hadn't happened, I'm not sure everything would have played out the way it did.

Passionistas: When you were a kid, what did your mother teach you about women's roles in society and what are you passing on to your children?

Sara: I come from a long line of very strong women. But my grandmother went to college and wasn't super common, you know, back then. And then she also had a job which also wasn't common. My mother always had a job and my parents divorced when I was young. So my mom was, you know, pretty much the one who was running everything and working to support my sister and I.

And it was never really taught that you can't do something. You know, my mother was a professional... is a professional. She's a nurse practitioner, you know, she always was all about school and just very supportive in the way that there's really nothing you can't do. And that was the impression I always felt for my sister and myself coming from both my mom and my grandmother, that there was never really a question.

Like if I wanted to go to college and become an accountant, then that's what I would do. You know? So I think that that was really helpful in my upbringing, to have such strong female role models. Because it was... from that perspective, it was never a question that I could do what I wanted to do in my professional life.

Passionistas: What's your dream for women?

Sara: Honestly, my dream for women is that they feel empowered to follow their own dreams. So that might be starting a business, that might not be starting a business. That might be staying home and raising a family. That might be, you know, remaining single, or not having a family. But I want every woman to feel empowered to follow the path that they feel in their heart is the right one for them, instead of feeling the pressures that we have from society to do X. To do Y. Because I think there's a lot of that.

And I think it can go both ways too, right? Like in a lot of ways, we're taught to be quiet and stay small and all of that. But then in my house, it was, you can do whatever you want to do, and then you feel the pressure to be a career woman and have, you know, that life. And for myself, I didn't truly resonate with that either because I wound up leaving corporate when my daughter was born. And I just knew that I didn't want to live that life and have kids at the same time.

And so, yeah, I think for me, it's for women to feel empowered to follow whatever path they want to follow and be supported by the people around them and then also society. Because as we know the structure of at least in the United States, it doesn't support women in the workforce. That we have those support systems in place to actually do what we want to do and reach our goals.

Passionistas: Thanks for listening to our interview with Sara Fins.

To discover how simple it can be to take control of your business finances, visit sarafins.com. You can hang out with Sara in her free Facebook group, The Easy Business Bookkeeping Community, or on Instagram and Facebook @easybusinessbookkeeping.

Please visit thepassionistasproject.com to learn more about our podcast and subscription box, filled with products made by women owned businesses and female artisans to inspire you to follow your passions.

This quarter's box is a collaboration with the MOB Nation and features products from mom owned businesses. It's the perfect Mother's Day gift for the mother in your life, or a treat for yourself. Get a free mystery box with a one-year subscription using the code SPRINGGOODIES, and be sure to subscribe to The Passionistas Project Podcast, so you don't miss any of our upcoming, inspiring guests.

Until next time, stay well and stay passionate.

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Aria Leighty is the founder of MOB Nation, a networking group she founded in 2012. After finding networking opportunities inaccessible to mom owned business, Aria wanted to create a space of true connection. After years of working with hundreds of mom-owned businesses, Aria realized there was so much more that MOBs needed to thrive in life and business. In addition to The MOB Nation, Aria is a thought leader, trailblazer, and business mentor. For almost a decade, she’s combined her diverse experience, creative ideas, wide range of connections, and unique perspectives to help women on the edge of change up-level in their businesses and lives.

Learn more about The Mob Nation.

Learn more about The Passionistas Project.

FULL TRANSCRIPT:

Passionistas: Hi, and welcome to The Passionistas Project Podcast, where we talk with women who are following their passions to inspire you to do the same. We're Amy and Nancy Harrington, and this is our 100th episode of the podcast. We want to take a moment to thank all of the women who have shared their stories and to all of you for tuning in and listening. We hope you've been as inspired by all of these Passionistas, as we have been. We've picked someone very special to be our hundredth guest: MOB Nation founder, Aria Leighty.

We were introduced to her by two other women who have been guests on the podcast. Stacy Newman-Weldon, the founder of Adventure Wednesdays and Dr. Melissa Bird, the founder of Natural Born Rebel and the new Heart of the Warrior Program.

Not only is Aria today's guest, but we're currently collaborating with her and her incredible community, The MOB Nation, on this quarter's Passionistas Project Pack. As usual, our subscription box is filled with women owned products. But thanks to the MOB, for this installment, they're all from Mom Owned businesses.

Aria founded the networking group The MOB Nation in 2012. After finding traditional networking opportunities inaccessible to mom owned businesses, she wanted to create a space of true connection. After years of working with hundreds of mom-owned businesses, Aria realized there were so much more that MOBs needed to thrive in life and business.

In addition to building The MOB Nation, Aria is a thought leader, trailblazer and business mentor. For almost a decade, she's combined her diverse experience, creative ideas, wide range of connections, and unique perspective to help women on the edge of change up-level in their businesses and lives. So please welcome to the show, Aria Leighty.

Aria: I love that. Thank you for that intro.

Passionistas: We're so excited to have you here. We love Mob Nation. We're huge fans. So Aria, what's the one thing you're most passionate about?

Aria: Really getting money into the hands of women and mom owned businesses. I think that that is like the overlying like concept in all of my businesses. All of the things that I do is the intent of redistributing the wealth into really good hearted women and allowing us to tap into that feminine energy of money.

Passionistas: And why is that so important to you and what personal experiences have you had that made those things a priority for you?

Aria: Well, I have just personally witnessed that it really does change the world. Like when we can redistribute the wealth, it has been proven that when women have more control of the money, they go and they spend it locally. They make more investments, they do more things. They have all the spending power in their family, so they can decide how to use that money to, like I said, change the world, whether it's, you know, outsource and their business to create more jobs, whether it is tipping better, women tip better. Also, you know, it just has more of that cycle of change in the world when women are earning it and spending it.

Passionistas: So let's take a step back. Where did you grow up? What was your childhood like? And did your childhood have an influence on these things that you're doing today?

Aria: I grew up... I split my time, my whole life has been split between Honolulu, Hawaii, Portland, Oregon, and San Diego, California. My dad was in the Navy. He met my native Hawaiian mother. It was kind of one of those cliche sailor meets a Hawaiian and so we moved around a lot. It's funny that you ask this because I was just asked this. And I said that my childhood was actually very lonely and I spent most of it very alone. And I was like, so I don't think it really had an impact on me. And then I was like, okay, well, duh, it did because I went out and built these massive communities so that people didn't have to do it alone.

Passionistas: So let's jump ahead to MOB Nation. What were you doing prior to that? And what led you to create this amazing community?

Aria: I had just opened my first brick and mortar location of a kid's art studio called Art a la Carte. I was in Portland, Oregon at the time. And so I was a single mom, single young mom. And my daughter was starting kindergarten and I decided to open a business and I knew that I was absolutely nuts. And I got to this point where I was like, what have I done. This is crazy. And so I started to go out and went to build my business, went to build my network.

And I just didn't feel like networking was successful. I couldn't find my people. And I always joke that I was like, I've got to find at least one more. There's gotta be one more mom that was crazy enough to also start a business and balance that with motherhood. And then, you know, thousands of members later, here we are.

Passionistas: So what were you experiencing as a mom owned business owner that was unique to what other business owners go through?

Aria: I mean, it literally wasn't accessible, like it just wasn't. During times of the day, I felt like I had to take my mom hat off and kind of run a mask when walking into those rooms. At the time, I mean, this was a decade ago. It really felt like traditional networking was kind of like... like the boys club and it was very masculine energy. It was very competitive. There wasn't a lot of like collaboration. Even if there were female centered, women centered circles, it still felt like we were modeling that masculine behavior of competing with each other and one-upping each other.

And some of the other traditional networking things... like you can never miss a meeting or you'll get kicked out .And it's, you know, if my daughter has a play or, you know, she's not feeling good, that's coming first before anything else. So that was really what made me start to realize that moms needed so much more than just what was being offered at the time.

Passionistas: So how did you go from finding that one other mother, who had started a business, to building this community of thousands of women? What was the process?

Aria: Well, first we just started meeting. I mean, it started with a Facebook post, like, "Hey, anybody know anyone else that's doing this?" And we had the first little quote unquote meetup around my dining table. I think there was like six moms, who a couple of them are still members today. Then we started going into a couple of different coffee shops and then people would just hear.

Like, you know, word of mouth spread really quickly because it was like, this is unlike anything that I've ever seen. You know, moms are actually collaborating, they're purchasing from each other. It's just, it's a completely different dynamic and energy and the referrals aren't forced. It's a very organic connection.

When I brought my kids and they were coloring, you know, during the whole thing. So when we started like really making structured meetups, it was very intentional how I've created them to make sure that everybody walks in feeling seen, everybody leaves feeling heard. Like they made a new friend. Like they got a new connection. Like they had an opportunity to share their pitch and their big ask.

And then again on a national level... that just... it went crazy. People were talking on Facebook. Like I joined this group where I went to this event and I saw, you know, my sales doubled within a week. Or, you know, I've never felt this level of community before. And so people started calling and emailing saying, "bring this to Phoenix, bring this to San Diego, bring this, you know, over here to Florida." And so we really just began expanding from there.

I had no intention at the time. And Gwen, our COO, was like, "As soon as you asked me to be a part of this, I knew that this was going to grow on a national level." But I really thought it was just going to be community-based. And I'm still shocked all the time when I talk to somebody from across the world now, and they've heard of The MOB Nation.

Passionistas: So talk about that process of expanding from being a local community, to taking it online and expanding throughout the country. How did you go about that?

Aria: Pre COVID times, we began with bringing on different leadership in the different cities. So the people that would say, "oh, we would love to have this in San Diego." It's like, if you want to lead it and you want to learn the secrets behind it, and you want to create the meet ups in the way that we have created them, and you want to duplicate in that in your area, then come onto our leadership team. And I would travel out there, help train them, help run their first event.

So prior to COVID, we were doing 30 in-person events per month across the nation. So there were several nights that would have, you know, one in Bend, Oregon and one in Texas and one in Honolulu. And it was really awesome to know that all of those were happening at the same time with these incredible leaders.

Then COVID happened. And it actually was a blessing for us because taking it to the online model... I don't want to say blessing, but you get what I'm saying. It did impact it in a positive way. We were able to make it a lot more accessible and expand the virtual meetups that we were doing to offering those 12 times per month.

And so people were able to come and, you know, have that experience. We were luckily able to duplicate that experience that we have and the structure that we have on Zoom. And people that are from small towns that don't get access to that community, people that have online businesses, where they can really benefit from sales from anywhere, they're able to hop on, get that experience, make those connections.

Passionistas: I mean, I think one of the most impressive things is this micro economy that you have fostered. So talk about that, and especially during COVID, the benefits that that has had for your members.

Aria: That is the thing I'm the most proud of too, is the micro economy. We like, we love to say, "there's a MOB for that."

And so that's really what we stand by. We encourage our members to support MOB first. And again, we take that same idea that when moms have more money in their pockets, we can change the world. We can make a difference, we create more jobs. And so being able to cultivate that culture within the group, getting them thinking all the time, what big box purchases can I switch over to mom owned and get this economy going.

And we saw, like during COVID, when all of these businesses were shutting down, our members were still seeing the same amount of success, if not more, because now there's so many more people saying, "go support mom owned. It's more important than ever." And even the really, you know, successful businesses were purchasing gift cards from stores, they knew that they would probably never go to because it's in a completely different state just to make sure that those stores were able to remain open on the underside of this.

Passionistas: Tell us a little bit about your core team. Cause we know you mentioned Gwen, like you have some women that are kind of the nexus of this organization with you. So can you talk about how you brought them together and the roles that some of them play?

Aria: Yes, my people! So I had the MOB and I was running it for about five years... four years before taking it to the next level with the alliance and the paid membership version of the MOB, the up-level next step. And I knew before launching that that I really needed to have a team that was going to be able to support that feeling that I wanted to do. To be able to love on the community. To be able to bring in their zone of genius so I can focus on mine's zone of genius. Because I fully believe in outsourcing and bringing on team, whenever you can.

So I actually asked a group of four women. They came into my glittery painted art studio and we sat at this trashed, painted table. We have a picture of it. It's really funny. I was like, I have this idea. I think it's going to really blow up. I think it's going to change the way that networking in business is done. I want you to be a part of it.

Gwen... I don't even think I had actually met her in person yet, but she was one of those women around the table. But she was just always showing up in the MOB group and providing so much value, had so much insight. You couldn't help, but just be drawn to her energy. And I was like, this person loves this community the way that I do, and they, you know, are generous and give the way that I want to give as a leader. And Gwen has stuck with me through this entire time.

Mori was actually a chapter leader. And people would come in saying, you know, "I was so nervous to go to this Vancouver/Washington event. And Mori made me feel so good. And gave me a hug." Like I was hearing stories every week. Like" Mori made me feel this," "Mori, you know, gave me the best hug." "Or she held my baby so I could, you know, eat a meal." And I was like, I need this to be duplicated so that every member that we have nationwide can feel this level of love. And so I was like, you need to be the VP of membership, but you need to spread this joy throughout the nation.

And she has. And still, every week, it's like, "Do you know how cool Mori and Gwen are?" I'm like, yes, thank you. But that's all anybody wants to tell me is like how great those two are.

Passionistas: You're listening to the hundredth episode of The Passionistas Project Podcast and our interview with Aria Leighty. To work with her as a coach and business mentor, visit arialeighty.com to join her alliance of women owned businesses visit themobnation.com.

If you're enjoying this interview and would like to help us continue creating inspiring content, please consider becoming a patron by visiting thepassionistasproject.com/podcast and clicking on the patron button. Even $5 a month can help us continue our mission of inspiring women to follow their passions.

Now here's more of our interview with Aria.

So you mentioned the paid level. Can you talk about the tiers and how women can be a part of MOB Nation?

Aria: Yeah. So if you identify as a mother and you have any size business, then we welcome you in. There is a show up level, which means that you're going to show up in then directory. So that's a great first start. If you are just wanting to get that marketing, that visibility, The MOB Nation directory, which is theresamomforthat.com, is the largest mom owned business directory in the nation.

So you're going to get that visibility. You're going to get seen. Again, you're going to get our members who wanted to support mom owned first, going there and to look, to see who they can support.

If you're really ready to dive in to the community and attend the meetups and, you know, get really invested, then the go up-level is for you. So you can attend all the meetups. You also have coffee chats and pitch practice and goal-setting calls. Our alliance community are really the ones that are super invested. So you know that you're going to be networking and in a private community called MOB Social. Networking with those people that really have the MOB culture on lock.

We get a lot of different amazing discounts and opportunities for our members. We partner with amazing people like The Passionistas Project, where we get our alliance members, you know, featured. So there's so many opportunities. The directors team is always looking for more ways to highlight these members and to get them seen and to get more money into their hands.

And our glow up members are members that have been a part of our community and are really the outstanding members, like look to these members to see how to have success in this community. And so they apply after a certain amount of time and get their directory listings featured on the website and a lot more benefits.

Passionistas: And even if you're not a member of The MOB, you can sponsor a meetup. Right? Tell everybody about that, cause we did that and it was an amazing opportunity.

Aria: Yeah, anyone that is really, like aligns with our community culture and wants to get their business or offering in front of our group of amazing members, they can sponsor a meetup. They can sponsor a MOBCON Mini, and be able to hop on virtually to tell our group, and then we share it in our social media platforms. And we take it very seriously, who we partner with and work with because our members have built trust with us. And they know that we only bring them the best of the best, like The Passionistas Project. And so they are, you know, so excited to support these different organizations back that partner with us.

Passionistas: What have you learned about yourself from all the work you've done with MOB Nation?

Aria: What haven't I learned about myself. I saw a thing that said, if you really want to see where you need to heal, like own a business. That's going to teach you everything that you need to know. So, I mean, it's just completely changed the trajectory of my life, and how I show up, how I connect with people. I think allowing people in and allowing myself to receive community and friendships has been a big blessing for me.

And I think I've learned everything about money mindset through working with mom owned businesses and seeing the different stories that we all carry about ourselves that, you know, men just aren't really carrying around about themselves. So, yeah, I've learned all of my important lessons through this project and this mission.

Passionistas: Every year, you have a big convention called MOBCON and then a couple of MOBCON Minis. So tell us about those and tell us the plan for the big MOBCON.

Aria: So we are having it in person. Yes. Haven't had that since 2019. It's in San Diego, California, the last weekend in September. And it's really the most amazing time where all of our members on a national level have a chance to be in the same room, feed off of each other's energy, learn from incredible speakers. We have a lot of different networking and connection opportunities.

And really our intent is to fill your cups personally and professionally. So you're going to walk away with new tools. You're going to walk away with a new, like fire lit under you with new connections, new friends. And you're also just going to have this belief in yourself and walk away that even though you poured all of time, you're still somehow going to walk away feeling like rejuvenated and rested and cared for and loved on.

So it's an incredible experience. I think like I cried for like a week after the one in 2019 because it was just... there were so many breakthroughs and so many hugs. And these people are so close and they've never met in person. You know, they've been talking for years across the world and they finally get to sit next to each other and hug and, you know, share a hotel room together. And they're just, they're so stoked.

Passionistas: Besides all of this amazing work you're doing with MOB Nation, you also have a very successful coaching and consulting business. Tell us about that and how you work with your clients.

Aria: Yeah, so that kind of formed organically. I realized that I was a consultant without even really charging for it or giving it a name. I've just been constantly mentoring different businesses throughout my decade of working with mom owned businesses. So I love to work with creative entrepreneurs and really I help them step into their power. I help them create collaborations, help them step out and show up into the world as the expert and the leader in their industry. Help them really discover and tap into their zone of genius and then stay there so that they can make money from that space.

It's something that I really love to do. My favorite thing right now is my new program "Show Up to Go Up." And that's a six week program for those really ambitious, audacious women that are ready to build that power network and to build their name on a national level, get press mentions, all of that fun stuff. And we work through everything from mindset to literally how to network intentionally. And already the women that have gone through that program, like, they are getting more bookings. They are being featured on podcasts. They are making more money within just a few weeks. So it really is a program that I'm really, really proud of.

Passionistas: And how can women work with you? How do they sign up for these programs?

Aria: They can go to arialeighty.com. I'm actually completely full for one-on-one clients until after MOBCON, which is insane. So the best way to work with me right now is to join that Show Up to Go Up program. I have one launching right now, and then there'll be one late summer/early fall that we'll be launching the next cohort.

Passionistas: Do you find that there are limiting beliefs that women tend to have that are holding them back when it comes to business?

Aria: Definitely that everything has to be hard. Like that they have to hustle and that everything has to be hard work. That it can't be easy. You know, things around the worth of their value. When we are tapped into that zone of genius because it does come so naturally and easily to us, moms are always like, "well, is it allowed to be this fun? Is it allowed to be this easy? You know, aren't I supposed to work hard and lose sleep and..." No, absolutely not.

And then the money, because so many women and so many moms they're doing heart's work, right? Like Passionistas Project is heart's work. You love it. You want to be changing the world. And so a lot of people think that if I'm changing the world, I can't be making a lot of money from it. Which you're allowed to do both. And you'll actually change the world even more if you are making a lot more money. Even just from the people watching you. Like, if we can all be, you know, breaking those limiting beliefs and those stories and those stereotypes down, it gives permission to all the women watching us to also go after what they want and to make a lot of money as well.

Passionistas: You talk about tapping into the feminine energy of money. So explain what you mean by that.

Aria: So tapping into the feminine energy of money. We have these stories around money that it's like, again, you have to work really hard. You have to sacrifice time with your family in order to, you know, make money. Money is the root of all evil. We've seen a lot of masculine examples of men having money and not doing amazing things with it.

But money is a tool. So it's only going to amplify whatever you are, whoever you are. Right? And so when we have control of it, we're doing better things with it. So when I am talking to clients and having them tap into the feminine energy of money, I really have them think "what kind of difference can you make?" Like make an impact list of how you would be spending this money.

And that often helps women because they're not looking at it anymore as this toxic thing or this greedy thing. Now they're really seeing it as like, I can be more giving and generous and compassionate. I can make better choices for my family. I can set my kids up to not have to, you know, work so hard and to be able to enjoy their lives. They think of the few things. They write it down and it's like the few obvious things. Okay. I can create some jobs or whatever. But then when they really get into it, it's like, "Oh, I can buy all of my groceries or all of my produce from organic farmers who are not, you know, destroying the earth and who are now taking that money back and being able to contribute to their family."

And all of a sudden we're really realizing what an impact we're going to have on the world when we are thinking of it as a positive tool, rather than this greedy thing that we shouldn't have.

Passionistas: When you look back at your journey, is there like a moment where things just looked really dark, but they ended up being the catalyst for something really positive?

Aria: I think every couple of months I have times where it looks... I gotta be honest. I mean, I just, I don't like to talk about things until I'm on the other side of them or until it's like, you know, a long ways back. But I just went through something where I really honestly thought, back in November, that I was going to just have to shut everything down.

I made an investment that looked like it was going to bring the MOB forward. It wasn't everything that was promised. And so it just really looked like, wow, this is not... this is the end. Like I can't keep going financially or emotionally, or, you know, I just don't have it in me physically.

So, I mean, four months ago that happened. And before that it was MOBCON 2019. Everything that could have gone wrong, did go wrong. I mean everything. My card got declined checking into the hotel. And I was like, oh my gosh, like we are at our last penny to make this, you know, crazy thing happen.

And it all worked out. We had so many members join because of that. We had so many amazing opportunities open. So yeah. But I would say every year, there's one major thing that I'm like, "okay, this is it."

Passionistas: What advice would you give to a mother who wants to start her own business?

Aria: Don't do it alone. Definitely, I mean, join us for a meetup. Join us in the community so that we can support you. You don't have to start... it's kind of like getting a head start, right? Because you have all of these moms championing you throughout the process and helping you with resources and, you know, getting you there quicker.

And I think also, just starting with whatever you have. It doesn't have to be perfect. I think a lot of people want to wait until they're this, or they've accomplished this, or they read this book. But show up now with what you have and evolve in front of your audience.

Like I sold out masterminds and sold out clients with Google forms before I even had a website, you know? So you can do it with whatever you have and the world is desperate for what you want to be bringing to life. There's people out there desperate for it. So go start showing up now.

Passionistas: Thanks for listening to our hundredth episode and interview with Aria Leighty. To work with her as a coach and business mentor, visit arialeighty.com. To join her alliance of women owned businesses visit themobnation.com.

Please visit thepassionistasproject.com to learn more about our podcast and subscription box, filled with products made by women owned businesses and female artisans to inspire you to follow your passion.

And remember, this quarters box is a collaboration with The MOB Nation and features products from mom owned businesses. It's the perfect Mother's Day gift for the mother in your life, or a treat for yourself. Get a free mystery box with a one-year subscription using the code SPRINGGOODIES.

And be sure to subscribe to The Passionistas Project Podcast so you don't miss any of our upcoming, inspiring guests. Until next time, stay well and stay passionate.

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Amy Chin is the founder of Calm Better Days, where she educates clients on CBD, its uses, different delivery methods and figuring out the proper dosage. As someone who has suffered from anxiety and depression, she found great relief with CBD and knew she had to help and educate others. By sharing her personal findings, Amy helps clients find a tailored CBD regime based on needs and lifestyle, so they can dive into their CBD journey and live calm, better days.

More about Amy Chin.

More about The Passionistas Project.

FULL TRANSCRIPT:

Passionistas: Hi, and welcome to The Passionistas Project Podcast, where we talk with women who are following their passions to inspire you to do the same. We're Amy and Nancy Harrington and today we're talking with Amy Chin, the founder of Calm Better Days. As someone who suffered from anxiety and postpartum depression, she found great relief with CBD and knew she had to help others understand how CBD could help them in a myriad of ways so she became a CBD educator.

Calm Better Days walks clients through what CBD is, what you use it for, different delivery methods and how to find their dosage. Clients also receive a tailored CBD regimen based on the individual's needs and lifestyle, so they can dive into their CBD journey.

So please welcome to the show, Amy Chin.

Amy: Hi. Hi Nancy. Hi Amy. Thank you for having me on today.

Passionistas: We’re really excited about CBD and want to learn all about it. Tell us what's the one thing you're most passionate about.

Amy: Well, it's cannabis. I'm most passionate about plant medicine. It is a gift that can heal in so many ways. And I think that, you know, as a society, we need to learn to tap into that. And I think that we are gearing into that category as we are learning that, you know, health these days is a integrated health, right.

That means eating more plant-based diet, as well as doing your exercise, meditation, getting adequate sleep, all those play a role into our health.

Passionistas: And so how does that translate into what you do for a living?

Amy: Understanding that everything is integrative, right. I always talk to my clients and remind them that CBD will fast-track your health to where you want it to be, but will slow down depending on your other health lifestyle habits. So for example, let's say two people are battling, you know, hormonal imbalance. And if one is doing everything, having healthy habits in terms of sleep, exercise, diet, and let's say spiritually, they're going to be healthier, faster.

However, if one is not adapting to those, you know, healthier lifestyle habits, it will take much longer. So that's how it all relates. And I think that we're all learning that as we go now, especially with COVID around.

Passionistas: Well, let's take a little step back. Tell us where you grew up and what your childhood was like.

Amy: I grew up in New York City, born and raised right in Chinatown. And being in a Chinese household, we didn't really speak much about health. We didn't speak much about feelings and emotions as well in a Chinese household. So for me, growing up now as a mom and being diagnosed with anxiety and postpartum depression was very new to me.

I was very thankful it was diagnosed by my marriage therapist because I was not aware of the symptoms because we never spoke about it in my household. And that's why I love talking about it. Because now that I realize when it was diagnosed, I can then treat it. I can address it and take care of myself. When I didn't know what it was at the time, I just thought, oh, this is part of motherhood. This is something that I have to learn to deal with. And I assumed that this was just how it was.

So I was very thankful it was diagnosed. And it was my marriage therapist who recommended CBD to me because I was leaning toward a more holistic life after being a mom. And I was not having good reactions from pharmaceutical meds. So I was very thankful that she did recommend something that was more holistic.

And this was about eight years ago. At the time that was when you actually had to get a medical card to get CBD. And I got my card and started taking CBD. And that's when my life changed.

It went from that cranky, irritable yelling mom that flew off the handle. And I hated who I was. I hated how I was with my children. And once I started taking CBD, I became so much more patient, so much more present and mindful. I was able to enjoy the time when I was interacting with my kids and realize, oh my goodness, life can be like this. It didn't have to be the way it was before. And when I felt that change in myself, it was so eye opening.

I was finally able to respond to the days, you know, challenges instead of reacting. And once I felt that calm and ease, I was just like, I knew that I had to get the word out there. Because I knew that if I one, didn't also knew I had anxiety and postpartum depression, I was sure that other moms out there maybe going through the same thing, and may not be aware of it. And knowing that there's a natural alternative out there with no side effects, it is such a big, great help. And so that's how I started Calm Better Days, to help people find their calm better day.

I know we go through that a lot where we're just living and, you know, suffering from something, right. Everyone's suffering from something, whether it's pain, whether it's mental, whether it's, you know, different health conditions. And that's the great thing about CBD is that it can address so many different issues, so many different health issues. You almost wonder how can it be?

How can it be so wonderful that it addresses so many different health issues from anxiety, epilepsy, Alzheimers, heart disease, arthritis. It's almost too good to be true, but it really does.

Passionistas: So I think there are misconceptions about what CBD is, and especially as it relates to cannabis and marijuana and people getting high and all that. So can you kind of talk about the myth of CBD and clarify for people that are listening, what it is?

Amy: Absolutely. So CBD and THC, there are both cannabinoids found in a cannabis plant. And THC is the cannabinoid known to get you euphorically high and CBD does not get you euphorically high. They are however, both cycle active in the sense that if I have depression, a person who takes CBD, their moods and feelings will be elevated in terms of not feeling depressed, however, not intoxicated.

So that's the big difference between CBD and THC. And because you don't get that euphoric high with CBD, a lot of people sometimes don't know when it's working. Because with THC, you know it's working when you get that euphoric high. But with CBD, because you're not getting that euphoric high people are like, well, what am I supposed to be feeling?

And so I describe it as you know it's working when you're not feeling the negative symptoms that you're normally experiencing. So that can be that anxiety, right. With anxiety might come that overwhelm, that high level of stress, that tightness in your chest, or pain for some people, right. So when you're not feeling those negative symptoms anymore, that's when you know CBD is working. It makes you feel normal, not suffering.

CBD is a potent bioaccumulator. So what that means is, it's going to soak up all the toxins in the soil, which can be heavy metal, fungi, mold, pesticide, mycotoxins. These are things we do not want to ingest. So always buy organic. And you know, hemp is such a potent bioaccumulator, they actually planted at Chernobyl to clean up the soil from the radiation.

So if you're not buying organic and you're not looking at the certificate of analysis that every quality CBD product comes with, you can be ingesting toxins that will set off at another health condition.

Passionistas: Is that what inspired you to found Calm Better Days? And what was the process of starting it? And what's your mission?

Amy: I started Calm Better Days at the end of 2019, right before the pandemic started. So what happened was in 2018, the Farm Bill was passed. So CBD was federally legal and you did not need a medical card anymore to buy CBD. So that's when we saw that the market was getting saturated. We saw CBD products everywhere. And I saw two issues for new consumers.

And that was one: because CBD was so new, not everyone understood how to properly use CBD to really access the benefits from the plan. And then two: because it's such a saturated market now, finding a safe and quality product was another unknown for new consumers. And so that's when I wanted to address both issues.

So, what I do is... people can sign up for a virtual consultation, so it can be done anywhere, any state. And I walk people through the basics because if you don't understand the basics, you're not going to really be able to access and understand the plant fully. So when I say the basics, I mean, what is CBD? How does it work in your body that it can address so many different symptoms? And then walking the person through the different delivery methods between tinctures, edibles, vaporizers. What are their different activation times and how long they last for in your body? Understanding that makes it easier for you to develop a routine that works for you.

And then also understanding your dosage. Everybody's dosage is very unique. And we're used to going to a doctor's office, let's say. And your doctor says, let's say you're starting an SSRI. We'll start you on a certain milligram. And the doctor will say, well, come back in a month and let's see how that works, and we'll adjust the dosage if necessary. And with plant medicine, it's no different, except that you're able to... if you're able to track and learn to read what your body is telling you, your body will tell you how much CBD you need. And I teach, you know, people that tracking system so that they can find out what works best for themselves.

And lastly, after the education portion, I take a look at your specific health condition to recommend the best products for you. Everybody suffers from different things. And, you know, we're learning that CBD is just scratching the surface. There are other cannabinoids and other turpines that play a role in each product and, and the effect.

So if you're telling me your issue is say Crohn's disease or a gut issue, then there is a cannabinoid CBG that is great for that, that will help clean up the gut, promote good gut flora, and also help with digestive issues. But let's say your issue is sleep. Then there is another cannabinoid, CBN, that is great for that.

So this cuts down on time and money for the consumer because now they don't have to waste money on thinking, well, I think this product might work for me. And then also, you know, they're finding relief faster because now that they have the products in hand that are right for them, now they know how to use it as well.

So that's how Calm Better Days was born and the mission behind it. I also carry about 15 to 20 different brands. And I support and focus on small farmed, women own and BIPOC owned brands. One, I believe that small farm that's where the quality is. I don't believe in, you know, huge commercial grows. The standards are very different, as well as you know, I like to look into the company's mission. I want to make sure that they're really about helping people and growing quality product. And that's why I believe that, you know, especially people new to this industry, right. They may not be aware of the history behind it and what goes on. So I want to steer them toward good quality companies that are, you know, really focus on the quality of the product and really helping people.

Passionistas: So how do you go from being diagnosed, that this is a treatment that will work for you as an individual, to gaining all this knowledge that you now have, where you can help other people? What kind of studying and practices did you do to get to this place?

Amy: Before I started CBD, I was a cannabis enthusiast. And once I discovered the CBD side, I was just blown away. I was like, is there anything this plant cannot do? And it was when I felt the results with CBD, that I started diving into it myself, doing all the research possible. And once I knew what I wanted to do and start my company, I then became cannabis licensed with Dr. Mary Clifton. She is a board certified internal doctor who specializes in cannabis.

And the studies don't stop because every day we're now finding new studies, right? Because now we can study the plant. Before we were not able to study the plant because it was, you know, it's still a Schedule 1 drug, and that's why there are no studies beforehand.

But like I was saying, now studies are coming out. So it doesn't stop. And every day there are new industry trends that I need to keep up on. But I love, I love finding out all this information. So I take what I've, you know, been consuming myself for years, as well as the studies that are now available, and apply that to people who are looking for new alternatives to health.

Passionistas: Tell us a little bit about the pop-ups that you do..

Amy: So I do a lot of pop-ups. I don't have a brick and mortar store, so I do a lot of pop-ups. Especially at women networking events, because, you know, I am a mom. And I know that moms ,we take on so much that our anxiety and stress is... I think a lot of moms suffer.

So I'm hoping one day we'll have a brick and mortar so that I can do more explaining and education in the store. I find that right now, although people are in need of it, I think because we're all so busy right now with COVID and everything is online, we're just too busy to sometimes even have that consultation. Or even too busy to go online to order things. So pop-ups are helpful to be right in front of them.

Passionistas: We're Amy and Nancy Harrington, and you're listening to The Passionistas Project Podcast and our interview with Amy Chin. To learn more about her CBD related personal events, group and individual consultations, and pop-ups, visit calmbetterdays.co.

If you're enjoying this interview and would like to help us to continue creating inspiring content, please consider becoming a patron by visiting thepassionistasproject.com/podcast and clicking on the patron button. Even $1 a month can help us continue our mission of inspiring women to follow their passions.

Now here's more of our interview with Amy.

You talked a little bit about the different forms that people can take CBD in. Can you kind of talk a little bit more in detail about that?

Amy: So back then the only, not the only, but the most common way was through inhalation, smoking a joint or a blunt. Nowadays, we have vaporizers. And I love vaporizers because one, you're not burning carcinogens. Like before with the joint you had the paper, the flour is all burning and that's consuming carcinogens. Which I want to save my throat, so I don't consume flower anymore in that form, but I do use vaporizers.

There's no scent to it. There is no carcinogens in my throat, so it saves my throat. But also I love it because it provides the quickest onset. So you'll feel it within 5 to 10 minutes. And this is great for, let's say a person suffering from panic attacks or anxiety attacks, and they need that quick relief. Or maybe they have severe, intense back pain that they need real quick relief from. The vaporizer will get to that quickest.

But I also understand that, you know, for some people they just don't want to inhale anything. And that's where, you know, the industry has been so innovative in the different formats that CBD comes in.

So there are edibles. And edibles are gummies, honey, chocolate, anything that needs to go through your stomach and liver to metabolize. But because it has to go through your stomach, it will take much longer to kick in. So it takes about 30 to 90 minutes. But people love it because it's portable. It's easy to consume. You just, if it's a gummy, you could put it in your bag, just pop one when you need it. And, it does last much longer than a vaporizer. It can last from 4 to 6 hours, even 8 hours for some people.

So when we think about different delivery methods, you want to think about what's going to make it easy for us to consume on a daily basis. Because then you make it easy as part of your routine. But if you're doing something that you don't like, and it's difficult, then it doesn't become part of your routine.

So other formats are tinctures. Tinctures are CBD suspended in MCT oil. And it comes in a bottle with a dropper. And normally you want to drop it underneath your tongue. Hold it there for 60 seconds before you swallow. And that allows it to be absorbed into your bloodstream and will take about 20 to 40 minutes to activate. And will last about four hours.

And when I talk about delivery methods, there is a time and place for everything. So what I mean by that is we want to think about our situation, what we need to address, and then also about the place where we're at, right? Because we want it to be easy and convenient.

Once I wake up. That's when my anxiety and depression is at its worse, right. It's hard to be motivated. I'm, you know, don't want to get out of bed. And it's hard for me to be focused and productive. So I know right away in the morning, I either use my vaporizer or my tincture because I want to set the tone for my day. And I want it to be quick to get out of that slump and kind of like jumpstart my day. So, I either do one of those two things.

And then after that, because I know it lasts for about four hours and I work at home, thankfully. So that's when I take an edible. I pop a gummy right before my lunch, because I know I have a long afternoon ahead and I don't want to have to think about redosing. And I take it right before my lunch, because I want it to go down with the good fat from my diet. Because then your body will absorb more of the CBD and also quicker, versus taking it on an empty stomach where your stomach acids might get to it first, or after a full meal where your liver just has to metabolize more.

And then after the gummy wears off is probably around dinner time/after dinner. And it depends on what I need to do. If I need to do more, then I'll dose accordingly. But let's say, you know, I put in a hard day's work. I really want to relax. I don't want to think about work, then I can also do something relaxing, like a tea to kind of like set the mood for my night. Set myself up for good sleep and have a really relaxing night.

And that's a great thing about it. Is that now with so many different products, it feels like a self treat. I can do an afternoon little chocolate piece or, you know, have my tea, right. Or maybe it's honey drizzled on top or fruit as my dessert after dinner. So there are different ways of consuming it. And not only that, but after my shower, you know, my muscles usually there's like soreness or stress from my neck down. And I love after a shower putting on a good CBD lotion just to melt all that tension, all that stress away. And that also eases me into my, you know, good nights rest.

Passionistas: I think everybody associates weed with patchouli. Like these creams and the tinctures and everything. Do they smell like cannabis or do they come now in like lavender?

Amy: They do. They come in so many different formats, so many different scents, and I love it. I have this one by Common Ground and it's bergamot and I love bergamot. And it goes on so smooth, so luxurious. So satiny too. I'm loving the creams that they come up with now because it doesn't smell like cannabis and it goes on so nice. It feels like any other luxurious cream, you wouldn't . Even know that it's, you know, specifically CBD. Not only does it smell great, but it really helps ease that tension, melt away any stress or pain that you may have.

It's great because it's anti-inflammatory, which can be acne, rosacea, the redness, right. That's all inflammation. So that takes care of that. It also regulates your sebum control. So back then, when I was hormonally imbalanced, I had horrible cystic acne. My face would get shiny in an hour because I was over producing oil. So the CBD oil helps balance out your sebum. So instead of over-producing oil, it was balancing that out. So now my face doesn't get shiny in an hour. And also my cystic acne, it would hurt less because the CBD oil was taking care of the pain, as well as the inflammation. So CBD facial oil is also anti-aging and anti-oxidant. So it's great for the face. And I use it every day.

It's cleaned up my skin regimen. Like before I used to apply so much acne medication, so many different retinals this and that. Now is just double cleanse and the facial moisturizers, CBD facial moisturizer and nothing else. It will take out the puffiness. I have an eye serum. And also for dark spots. Because it quickens the cellular turnover, so the dark spots will fade quicker as well. So it's cut down my steps and products. I love it. I recommend it for everyone.

Passionistas: What if someone is on traditional medication? Are there interactions that they should speak with a doctor about before starting a regimen?

Amy: Always speak with your doctor especially when you are on pharmaceutical drugs. And on my website, I have a partnership with Leaf411, which is a nonprofit organization of cannabis nurses. So what that means is you can call them and say, you know, you were referred from Calm Better Days. And that makes the call free. You do have to pay for the service, but because I have the partnership, it is free.

And what you can do is say, "I am on medication X, Y, Z. Will CBD interact with it?" For the most part, CBD does not interact with most drugs. The only concern is if you are on blood thinners or blood pressure medication. Anything that interacts with grapefruit and you cannot take, CBD works like that grapefruit. It's, an enzyme inhibitor. So that you would have to watch.

Passionistas: You talked a little bit about how your personal life has changed from making this discovery. But tell us a little bit more about, kind of, the transformation you personally have made since you started using CBD in this way.

Amy: Well, let's see, I've been on it for about, CBD specifically, for over eight years now. Cannabis in general, probably over a decade. So I have now become a more mindful person, definitely more aware about my health. And this was also after becoming a mom, more holistic, more plant-based. Because when I was at my darkest point with anxiety and postpartum depression, that's when my health was out of balance. I was hormonally imbalanced. I wasn't eating right at that time.

So during the time when I was consuming CBD was also when I was making healthier lifestyle changes in terms of my diet, more plant-based. And as a mom, you know, I know I'm supposed to exercise more and also get adequate sleep. However, it's very hard to fit those two things in as a busy mom, also running her own company.

And I know that, right. And that is why I make sure to take my CBD every day. So at least then my body won't crack from not doing the things that I know I'm supposed to do. If I can, I do try to, of course do it. But in terms of lifestyle, that's how it's changed. I'm more aware of what I do need to do, as well as my mental state.

I would say before CBD, I felt like my life felt like, you know, how, when you're that hamster on the hamster wheel and it's constantly going. And you just feel that you have to. And then once I took CBD, it kind of took me out of that hamster wheel and I could see, oh my gosh, I'm that hamster. And it didn't have to be like that.

It allowed me to have calmness and mindfulness so I can see and be aware of what goes on in my life. And the funny thing is, you know, they always suggest therapy and all that. And I have been going to years of that and try to practice meditation and yoga, but my mind would not be still. And I just could not tap into it no matter how hard I tried. But with the CBD, I was able to finally tap into that and calm my mind and be aware of everything that was going on, so that now if I take CBD before a yoga session or a meditation, it just enhances that session because now I can really focus in and tap into that. Whereas before I just could not calm my mind to, to focus in on that.

Passionistas: Do you find that people are, like who don't get it, who don't understand it personally, like are judgmental about the concept of CBD? And how do you address people who come at you in that way?

Amy: Absolutely. I get a lot of people who don't understand it. And that's why I love to talk about it. And I get that they don't understand it. And sometimes it comes with, of course, you don't get it because you don't have the basic fundamentals. And, and that's why I'm here to help you understand that, because I feel that once you understand that, then everything starts clicking. And then after that is you have to experiment and try it.

And you know, we've been so conditioned as a society to think that, okay, a doctor is here, they prescribe medicine. And then you just take it blindly, right? And with plant medicine, it's a different approach in that you can do it yourself, but you have to be patient. You have to be open to it and you have to be open to tracking it so that you can tell yourself, well, how much does my body need?

But we haven't listened to our bodies in so long that it seems like a new practice. And we have to remember that herbs, cannabis, that was the original medicine of days long ago before pharmaceutical medicine was made in a lab. So we have to understand that that's what we started with and it's going back to that.

And I understand sometimes even with the education, it may still be hard to understand. But once that person tries it and they feel it, then that is like, I'm hooked now. Now I want to understand more and dive into it more. And sometimes it's all about finding the right dosage to get you there. Or finding the right product because everyone is going to respond differently to a vaporizer versus a tincture versus an edible. You know, for some people edibles, for whatever reason, doesn't work for them, for their body, their genetic makeup. So sometimes that's when a vaporizer can really help.

And I love vaporizers because I find that because of the quick onset, that people really feel it. Where sometimes when they're waiting for an edible to kick in, they forget that they're waiting and then the day goes by and then they're not mindful of, oh, my day actually went by smoother. I wasn't blowing up at everything, right. But sometimes people don't notice that because we're not mindful.

We're not reading what our body is telling us. And usually we only hear what our body is telling us when it's screaming, right. And that's when it's like suffering from a pain or suffering from something that happened in our body.

Passionistas: From all the people that you've worked with, is there like one specific example that you can think of as like a success story that you're especially blown away by?

Amy: Well, right now, a lot of clients are coming to me for sleep issues and stress issues and actually gut issues. Well, gut and mind is all related. So that's why stress and gut health are like hand in hand. And that's why a lot of people are coming for that.

But sleep. So I've seen a lot of people come back and say, you know what? I've been getting good sleep. And stress has been lowered. I've had a lot of clients who were on pharmaceutical meds for anxiety, stress, depression, and have weaned off of it. When I hear that they've weaned off of pharmaceutical meds and still feeling great, I am so happy because I know that they're feeling better because they're no longer feeling the side effects from the pharmaceutical drugs. Which was the main reason why a lot of them wanted to get off of that.

So when I hear that, I just know that, you know, that makes me feel wonderful that I'm actually helping people feel better.

Passionistas: Thanks for listening to our interview with Amy Chin. To learn more about her CBD related personal events, group and individual consultations, and pop-ups visit calmbetterdays.co.

Please visit thepassionistasproject.com to learn more about our podcast and subscription box, filled with products made by women owned businesses and female artisans to inspire you to follow your passions. This quarter's box is a collaboration with the MOB Nation and features products from mom owned business. Get a free mystery box with a one-year subscription using the code SPRINGGOODIES. And be sure to subscribe to The Passionistas Project Podcast, so you don't miss any of our upcoming, inspiring guests.

Until next time, stay well and stay passionate.

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Cairo Eubanks is the new Future Foundation Youth Representative to the United Nations and Youth Steering Committee Member. She is also the Global Correspondent for the Global Oved Dei Seminary and University (GODSU). A curriculum developer, Cairo's created programs for students in Tamil Nadu, South India, and Broward County, Florida, which is the foundation for Bringing the World to Florida. Cairo received a Proclamation from Mayor Dale Holness and the Rising Star Award from Mayor Wayne Messam for her community work and program development that foster leadership development and culture exchange. She reigns as Miss Back Florida USA 2022 for Miss Black USA. Cairo is on a mission to nurture a global community of leaders and professionals by strengthening their voice and confidence.

Learn more about Cairo.

Learn more about The Passionistas Project.

Full Transcript:

Passionistas: Hi, and welcome to The Passionistas Project Podcast, where we talk with women who are following their passions to inspire you to do the same. We're Amy and Nancy Harrington, and today we're talking with Cairo Eubanks, the New Future Foundation Youth Representative to the United Nations and Youth Steering Committee member. Cairo is also the Global Correspondent for the Global Oved Dei Seminary and University, GODSU.

A curriculum developer, Cairo's created programs for students in Tamil Nadu, South India and Broward County, Florida, which is the foundation for Bringing the World to Florida. Cairo received a proclamation from Mayor Dale Holness on October 10th, 2020, and The Rising Star Award from Mayor Wayne Messam for her community work and program development that fosters leadership development and cultural exchange.

She reigns as Miss Black Florida USA 2022 for Miss Black USA. She's on a mission to nurture a global community of leaders and professionals by strengthening their voice and confidence. So please welcome to the show, Cairo Eubanks.

Cairo: Hi Amy! Hi Nancy! Thank you so much for having me.

Passionistas: We're so excited to have you and to learn more about all of the amazing things you're doing. We like to start by asking, what's the one thing you're most passionate about?

Cairo: Oh, that is a fantastic question. I would say what I am most passionate about would be... can I have two? I'd like to put two into one answer, and it would be leadership development and cultural exchange. And just based off of the experiences that I've had as a Jamaican and American, as a dual citizen, and getting to travel the world. I've had the honor and privilege of getting to travel to about 26 countries by the age of 26.

The lessons that I've learned as it relates to the dialogue conversation, the importance of being able to connect with others and use your story is what makes me so passionate, because I realized the weight or the power and the value that comes with telling your story. So when I talk about leadership development and cultural exchange, it really ties in together with my passion of being able to help people tell their story and to tell it with enthusiasm.

Passionistas: What has inspired all of this travel and how have you been able to do that?

Cairo: I believe that when people ask me that question, it's always great to start at the beginning, right? And when you think about my name, Cairo, my parents, they wanted me to have an Afro-centric name that tied me back to the African continent.

And they did this, not just with myself, but also with my siblings. So I'm Cairo like Egypt. My sister is Sudan like the country because she's 14, she's a whole country within herself. And then my brother Dakar, like Senegal. And they wanted us to really have curiosity and to learn, you know, be more curious about our heritage and realize that our connection to Africa, you know, is still there. And so by having my name Cairo, I wanted to not only go to Egypt, I wanted to go to Senegal, I wanted to go to Sudan as a young child.

And then on top of that with my mother being Jamaican, I would go to Jamaica for days, weeks, months at of time. And the experiences that I got to have living with my grandparents, getting to hear stories about, you know, how they saw the world, right, relative to how my family in the United States, from my American side, saw the world. And also some of the similarities are the commonalities that they shared. It really helped me realize that no matter where I was in the world, I always felt at home. And, you know, I really credit that to my parents being from two different countries.

But then on top of that, you know, having my name, getting a little taste of the world and getting to be, you know, throughout the Caribbean, because of my mom being Jamaican, it made me realize that I wanted to see more and I want it to learn more about the world around me. And so I got opportunities to study abroad and to travel abroad, most notably with Semester at Sea.

So when I was a junior in college, I got this opportunity to go to, let's say it was about 10 different countries and, you know, three different continents. So we were actually in, well, actually more than that, we were in Europe, we were in Africa and then we were also throughout the Americas, as well as.

Just the experiences that I had, it really helped me realize, wow, I can do this. It's not so daunting to get to be able to get your visa or to get to travel. And, I mean, the stories I can go on and on about some of those memories that I had. But it really inspired me to continue to travel and to combine my love for traveling with my passion for education and leadership development.

So after I had that experience at Semester at Sea, actually during that time, I had a conversation with a professor who told me about opportunities to get to teach abroad and to work with non-profits internationally. And that's how I got that opportunity to teach in Tamil Nadu, India. And when I was creating public speaking workshops for students that were targeting on their development, their personal and professional development, I had some incredible conversations about discrimination, about prejudice, but also about, you know, different traditions and what made our, you know, different cultures, so unique, but also what did we have in common.

And just these experiences as a whole. And I'm trying to bring you up back to, you know, the present, but, you know, seeing that origin story of having my name, recognizing that my name connected me to the world around me, and then recognizing that those experiences that I had getting to travel the world. I then knew that it was then my mission to create opportunities for others, especially younger generations to have those same experiences.

Passionistas: So you're a Global Correspondent for GODSU. So tell us about that organization and the work you do with them.

Cairo: Absolutely. So as the Global Correspondent for Global Oved Dei Seminary and University, it's an interstate e-learning institution. And a lot of the work that I do outside of representing GODSU at different conferences. So most notably we were the first sponsor of the African Investment and Trade panel for the Florida International Trade and Cultural Expo. We were able to have dignitaries from, you know, six different African countries, throughout the continent, come together and talk about trade and opportunities to get to invest in their countries.

So that's a lot of the work that I've done, either being able to promote, you know, international trade opportunities that exist throughout the African diaspora. That's a lot of the work that we do in terms of, you know, different conferences that we host different events that we're part of. And then also being able to host some of the Empower U Conferences that we have here at GODSU.

So it's like, there are a lot of different things that I do, but it's all titled and really targeted towards international development and empowerment as well.

Passionistas: So you're also a Youth Representative for the UN. So tell us how you got involved with that and what exactly do you do?

Cairo: Yes. So I'm a Youth Representative for New Future Foundation to the United nations. So I represent my NGO. And the way that that happened, it's actually connected to GODSU. It's a funny story.

So I was speaking, I was hosting one of the Empower U conferences, and we had a guest speaker. Her name is Queen Mother Dr. Delois Blakely, and she has been affiliated with the UN for over 50 years. And she is a UN goodwill ambassador to Africa for the African continent.

And so when I had the pleasure of getting to hear her speak as a panelist, I just said, you know what? At the time I was in college, I wanted to be connected. I wanted to be able to intern in some way and just get as close to the headquarters as possible, because I knew that my, as you can see my passion for development, is really, has a global focus. And I thought, what better place than to get to be in that, in that space, at the UN? And so I pulled her aside after the conference and I just told her, I said, "Queen Mother, I want to work with you. I want to learn. I want to be mentored by you."

And it's actually quite interesting because that opportunity of asking for help or asking for guidance and just telling her, you know, as a young 20-something year old, I wanted to be able to grow from, you know, being under her tutelage. She allowed me to be first an intern for her NGO and then a Youth Representative. And then I had the opportunity to be selected for the Youth Representative Steering Committee under the United Nations Department of Global Communication 's Civil Society Unit.

And so when I got the opportunity to be on this committee where it's about, I want to say about 25 different youth representatives that represent different NGOs all across the world. And we are the voice and we advocate for the youth perspective as it relates to, you know, civil society or the community.

 So I say all of that, just to say that I got... I went from approaching her as someone who just wanted to learn and just, teach me and I want to learn anything. I'll send in reports, whatever you need me to do, Queen Mother, to then being able to progress where I'm on the committee and I'm representing my NGO for the second term, as of actually this month. So that's a huge blessing.

Passionistas: You mentioned your travel to Tamil Nadu in India. Tell us what the mission was on that journey and what you took away from that experience.

Cairo: So I had had a capstone project as an Omprakash Ambassador to create public speaking workshops and to see how we can be able to use public speaking as a part of breaking the cycle of poverty. Because the program that I was working with and the organization that I was working with in South India, they had this concept of education breaking the cycle of poverty and being able to empower others using knowledge. And so they would create opportunities for students to be able to get scholarships, or education, and be able to then provide for their families by giving them enough education of skills to complete undergrad, and then be able to then give back to their immediate families.

 So that being said, when I learned about this mission of the school, I realized that I wanted to create, you know, leadership programs. And I had done them in the past, but I never created something on this scale where it would actually be a part of my capstone project and I'd be doing research on it. And so I got guidance.

Guess that ties right back into the previous question about Queen Mother Dr. Blakely as to how to proceed for that research. And next thing, you know, I submitted my proposal and it was accepted and, then the next thing you know, I'm in Bangalore, India, and then traveling to Hosur.

And I, and it was wonderful being able to work with the high school students that I did. Getting to use the program that I created, you know, weekly. The public speaking workshops that then became the foundation for what I'm doing right now, which is bringing the world to Florida and international virtual student exchange program. So I feel like, I feel like with every question I'm trying to bring it full circle to bring you to where it first started, and then how it got me here today.

Passionistas: We're Amy and Nancy Harrington, and you're listening to The Passionistas Project Podcast and our interview with Cairo Eubanks. To learn more about her mission to nurture a global community of leaders and professionals by strengthening their voice and confidence visit cairospeaks.com.

If you're enjoying this interview and would like to help us to continue to create an inspiring content, please consider becoming a patron by visiting thepassionistasproject.com/podcast and clicking on the Patron button. Even $1 a month can help us continue our mission of inspiring women to follow their passions.

Now here's more of our interview with Cairo.

So tell us about the work you're doing in Florida.

Cairo: Absolutely. Okay. So not only am I Miss Black Florida, and I have different communities, or I should say different committees rather, that I'm a part of including the Broward County Social Justice Task Force. I was on the Mayor's Public Safety Council and more. So I say all of this to say that I have a vast interest in being a part of the community and finding solutions to the communities, you know, any issues that may arise.

And so the story for Bringing the World to Florida really began when I had an issue that I created an event out of, and it inspired students to then ask me to create a curriculum. And the event was unfortunately birthed out of cyber harassment.

So there was a guy on my campus and I'm just going to call him Andrew, just for the sake of argument or for a conversation. And Andrew had been trying to, you know, reach out to me and I would block him and whatnot. I didn't really know too much about him. I just knew that there was something like, kinda off about him. And I didn't, I didn't really feel comfortable around him. And I found out from someone I didn't even know because I didn't have Instagram at the time. But he had taken my pictures off of Facebook. I don't even know. I don't, we're not even friends on Facebook. He took my pictures off of Facebook and he posted them on a lewd Instagram account that he created himself. And so, not only was my picture up there, and someone sent me a screenshot, but there were other people from my school, other people in my sorority and more. And I got so upset about this, and I said, something has to be done.

Many of them had actually filed police reports because he had created a fake academic study. It's ridiculous. He created a fake academic study to try to solicit explicit photos or to give them, and he said that he had faculty permission to do so. So this is, yeah, so that was a situation.

And I created a Facebook post and 150 comments later, we had about 30 plus individuals who were able to provide like a compilation of screenshots of things that I was able to say, you know, what. Even though they provided this to the police and they did, you know, police reports or they would report it to the school, or to his then fraternity. It just didn't feel like there was enough.

And so I said, what can I do? What can I do so that not only do I not feel stuck, but also other people do not feel stuck as well. Because he was not only doing this to me and all those other individuals, but we know that he was also harassing others online. And some people were saying that there were issues where they felt like he was stalking them, like he was trying to follow them home.

So we said, you know what? We need to take preventative measures. And how can I do that? Create a community event for resources for students. So teens, incoming freshmen, sophomores, and then parents. And it became a huge success.

We had partners with the Anti-Defamation League. We had the Broward Sheriff's Office. We had the Broward School Climate Action and Discipline Department among other organizations and partners, both locally and nationally. And then we had kids who said, "you know what? We love this. Can you come to my school? Like, you know, I don't even want community service hours for this. Let me get you to my school." And we said, you know what?

This was intended to be a one-time event. But what I did was I used the students who had been part of the program and I said, okay, "what kind of curriculum do you want to see? What sort of programs would you like to see that do not exist in your school at this time or within the community that you haven't found?"

And we surveyed them and we took their answers. And then we created a whole course wrapped around some of the answers that they asked for. So we have a curriculum that's self-paced, we have workshops and events and conferences like Operation Stop Cyber Harassment. So that's now a part of our Asking for Help Module. And then we have other opportunities for skill building as well for the kids, so that they can take what they learn in the curriculum and actually get apply it.

Passionistas: You are also Miss Black Florida USA, as part of the Miss Black USA Organization. So tell us how you got involved with that and what you do to challenge the misconceptions about title holders in the organization.

Cairo: Oh, my goodness. My story is quite interesting. Okay. So, the short version of this, because I do want to keep this brief and get to the whole point of the misconceptions. That's really what I want to focus on. But it began in 2020 when I competed in my first competition, for Miss Broward County for Miss America.

So I competed and I won on my first try and that was a huge blessing for me. And it was big for me because I had never seen myself as a pageant queen prior to competing for this. And if it had not been for my mother, if it had not been for those around me, who said, you know what? This is your last year. You're going to age out. You might as well try it out. You'll get a good experience. You can use that towards, you know, programs that you're creating, et cetera. I just decided to take a leap. And then was shocked. I was shocked.

That being said, I was competing and preparing for Miss Florida. And I remember the opportunity that came up for Miss Florida for Miss America. I was getting ready. It was June, 2021, and literally three days before my competition, I had a rocking chair like roll over my foot and crushed it. And I got nerve damage in my foot. So I was like literally in a scooter all through competition week and it was tough. And I ended up not being Miss Florida for Miss America.

And I remember thinking to myself. I was like, you know, God had told me, and I'm a spiritual person, right? So I talk about God, but you know, God had told me that he saw that I was going to be a state title holder. And he said that "you were still going to be able to create and move your project, Bringing the World to Florida as a state title holder."

And I applied, I actually got asked. It's so funny cause I got asked to send in my information and they had allowed me to be on the spot accepted. So I sent in some application information, but I ended up accepting the role. And I really appreciated just the opportunity that I got to then, you know, be able to be Miss Black Florida and to get to promote what it means to really be a state ambassador and to promote, you know, not just the wonderful things that people associate with Florida. Which of course is, you know, we have Disney, we have Orlando, we have Miami, we have the beaches, we have the Everglades. Yes.

But we also have business. We also have culture here that you cannot find anywhere else. So that being said, one misconception that I believe a lot of people have about pageant queens in general, is that it's just about looks, you know, and it's not just about looks. And I believe that a lot of these competitions, they're purposefully, really showcasing that it's not just about how you look when you see some of the winners. For example, some of the different systems that exist like Zozibini Tunzi from Miss Universe, Miss Universe 2019. She is a Black South African woman with short cropped hair. And no one had ever seen someone like her, you know, take the world by storm as Miss Universe.

 There's really a chance for us who have been seen as not necessarily the stereotypical or the traditional pageant queen to really showcase the other qualities or the characteristics that Queens have, like our ability and desire to be servant leaders, to be part of the community. I don't know anyone else who would say yes to community service opportunity faster than a pageant payment, honestly.

And it's because of the fact that we do want to be out there, and we realize that part of our responsibility is to be present and to be able to be a connector for the community. And, like, I can't even begin to describe to you the personal and professional development that I had.

And I know that there's some people who are like, what, like getting ready for Miss Broward County? Yeah, no it changed my life because it allowed me to be in that space where I had to learn something completely from scratch. And I had to be humble a hundred percent and be like, listen, I don't know how to walk in heels more than three inches high, you know? And I don't know how to do my makeup, but I learned. And it was a humbling experience to learn.

So there's some misconceptions, but I believe that the more that people learn about the stories, the tragedies, or the challenges that, you know, title holders have had individually and how they overcome that and how they use their stories to inspire others can help to balance out some of the misconceptions that people have about wearing a crown.

Passionistas: Where does this desire to be of service come from? Is this something that your family has always done? Did your parents teach you to think this way?

Cairo: Absolutely. My parents, they always instilled in me this idea or vision of being a servant leader and what it means to serve first. When we talk about leadership and what it means to be a leader, there's always people assuming like, oh, you have to be the loudest person up there and you have to be the one that's like telling everybody what to do. But oftentimes you can lead by example, and you can lead by example by serving others.

And because I grew up in a very, you know, spiritual household, it was this concept of being able to discover your passion of what, you know, God or the universe has intended for you to have, and then to be able to share that and to recognize that we're all connected. And if there's something that I can do to bless someone else or to be of service to someone else, then that allows me to also get blessed in return.

So we would say like a little saying, that we would say in my home and also in Jamaica, is this idea of like lotioning up your hands. Like if you lotion up someone else's hands, you end up getting moisturized too. And so it's just this concept. And the more that I got to do that and got to help others the better I felt. And the more I felt like I had a light to share with others, you know, and that inspires me and that keeps me going.

And so that's really where it comes from. It's like this family concept of servant leader and recognizing that the more that I get to be of service, the happier that I get to be. I don't know. I think it's a, win-win.

Passionistas: Tell us about CairoSpeaks/CairoWrites and what your mission is with those projects.

Cairo: Yes with CairoSpeaks/CairoWrites. So out of CairoSpeaks/CairoWrites. Okay. So let me back up a little bit. CairoSpeaks/CairoWrites, there are two parts to it.

CairoSpeaks. So there are leadership development and all-in speaking coaching aspects to, you know, the services that I provide there. And then also with CairoWrites, I've written biographies, I've ghost written material, as well for my clients. And I've also written speeches.

I would say that the best part about what I've done with CairoSpeaks/CairoWrites is that I have created a space for me to get to share like what I love most. And I've shared, you know, when it comes to the leadership development and cultural exchange. But also from not just from a youth perspective, but being able to be of service, to everyone.

So for example, I had an opportunity to be the keynote speaker for Martin Luther King Day for the city of Boca Raton this past month. And that was a huge blessing. And I got to, you know, inspire and empower with my keynote speech not just youth, but also people of all ages. And so a lot of the work that I'm doing right now and what I'm transitioning my business to doing is focusing a lot on, you know, speaking opportunities, sharing my message, sharing my light as-- my business partner Rena would say, "not dimmering your shimmer, but instead being able to show that shimmer everywhere"-- and being able to transition more into that route.

Just because a lot of the leadership development programs that I was doing at one point, I've now focused all of my energy into Bringing the Globe and Bringing the World to Florida.

Passionistas: What's your dream for women?

Cairo: My dream for women is to really understand their value. And that was a conversation that I was actually having prior to this interview and just realizations that I have even about myself. You know, I realized that, you know, someone can look at my bio or look at my background and look at the bullet points of, you know, my resume or my CV and say, wow, you know, this person has done so much. But that doesn't necessarily mean that that's how I necessarily could feel about myself.

And see, and I recognize that there are books that I've read, you know, talking about women who are CEOs and high performing executives. And the reality is that there are so many women who are working so, so hard and they have accomplished and achieved a lot and yet don't feel that way, you know? And so even though I do feel accomplished and everything like that, I took a moment today and I said, you know what? Wow, Look at how valuable I find myself to be. We have to remind each other of how valuable we are, way past what we can do on paper, but our hearts and our souls.

And that is what I would tell women today, is to recognize your value, recognize your value past a monetary dollar amount, and to realize that you are incredible just the way you are. And I know it sounds cliche to say that, but it is true. And we don't hear that enough. And if it is cliche, because we've heard it too many times, maybe it's gone out, you know, gone from one ear and out the other, but we really need to internalize that.

Passionistas: Thanks for listening to our interview with Cairo Eubanks. To learn more about her mission to nurture a global community of leaders and professionals by strengthening their voice and confidence visit cairospeaks.com.

Please visit thepassionistasproject.Com to learn more about our podcast and subscription box filled with products by women owned businesses and female artisans to inspire you to follow your path. Get a free mystery box with a one-year subscription by using the code SPRINGGOODIES. And be sure to subscribe to The Passionistas Project Podcast so you don't miss any of our upcoming, inspiring guests.

Until next time, stay well and stay passionate.

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