The Snooze Button

We welcome Dr. Michael Grandner back to the show - he's the Director of the Sleep & Health Research Program, and the Behavioral Sleep Medicine Clinic, both at the University of Arizona.

Michael and Neil cover everything from polyphasic sleep to pandemics and everything in between, but much of the conversation revolves around the myriad things that humans have done to screw up sleep for the entire species.

LINKAPALOOZA

Dr. Michael Grandner on Twitter

MichaelGrandner.com

This podcast uses the following third-party services for analysis:

Chartable - https://chartable.com/privacy

In this episode

• Why warmer mornings and earlier sunlight change Michael’s own sleep schedule
• Light as one of the fundamental environmental signals shaping circadian biology
• What “polyphasic sleep” actually means
• The difference between a normal nap or biphasic schedule and extreme internet polyphasic-sleep protocols
• Why trying to become more productive by dramatically fragmenting and reducing sleep is a bad bet
• The laboratory “90-minute day” and what it shows about the body’s resistance to extreme sleep scheduling
• Why there is no single perfect sleep schedule for every adult
• Getting enough total sleep while keeping most of it in your biological night
• Why trying to “optimize” REM or deep sleep can become another way of interfering with sleep
• Naps: when they can be perfectly reasonable and when excessive daytime sleepiness may deserve a closer look
• “First sleep,” “second sleep” and Roger Ekirch’s historical work on segmented sleep
• Why a middle-of-the-night awakening is not automatically a sleep failure
• Michael’s gas-tank metaphor for sleep pressure and planned nighttime awakenings
• Why sleep hygiene should be treated as guidance, not the Ten Commandments
• Dr. Michael Perlis and the “sleep hygiene commandments” joke
• How to identify the sleep barriers that actually matter for you
• Screens as a barrier we sometimes knowingly choose
• The early COVID-19 pandemic as an accidental global experiment in school start times, commuting and sleep schedules
• Why some people slept more when ordinary schedules disappeared — while others drifted later and became less structured
• Late-night news consumption and the endless-feed problem
• Michael’s suggestion to set a bedtime alarm instead of relying only on a morning alarm
• Joseph Goldstein’s useful question: “Is this useful?”
• Reframing habits by asking how they are helping — and whether the same need can be met another way
• Why Michael compares the process to approaches used in addiction treatment
• Julie Flygare, Project Sleep and the following week’s conversation about narcolepsy
• The 2009 H1N1/Pandemrix narcolepsy signal and what it taught researchers about immune involvement in narcolepsy type 1
• Fabian-Xosé Fernandez, Julie Flygare and Michael’s 2020 commentary, Narcolepsy and COVID-19: sleeping on an opportunity?
• The sudden explosion of vivid “corona dreams” and several possible explanations Michael wanted researchers to test
• The early-pandemic Pima County suicide alert and why Michael believed social connection mattered more than ever
• The relationship between disturbed sleep, nighttime wakefulness and suicide risk

About Dr. Michael Grandner

Dr. Michael Grandner is a licensed clinical psychologist and behavioral sleep medicine specialist at the University of Arizona. He directs the Sleep and Health Research Program and the Behavioral Sleep and Circadian Medicine Clinic, and serves as Associate Director for Translational and Behavioral Science at the university’s Center for Sleep, Circadian, and Neuroscience Research.

His research examines how sleep interacts with cardiovascular and metabolic health, cognition, mental health, longevity and the social and environmental conditions that shape sleep. He has published hundreds of scientific articles and chapters, contributed to the American Heart Association’s Life’s Essential 8 framework, and is a past president of the Society of Behavioral Sleep Medicine.

Grandner has been one of The Snooze Button’s recurring scientific voices from the beginning — partly because Neil keeps asking questions, and partly because Michael has repeatedly made the mistake of answering them.

MENTIONED

Dr. Michael Grandner

Michael’s website, research, publications and media work.

MichaelGrandner.com

Sleep and Health Research Program — University of Arizona

The research program Michael directs, focused on sleep health, behavioral sleep medicine and the social and biological factors that shape sleep.

University of Arizona Sleep and Health Research Program

At Day’s Close: Night in Times Past — A. Roger Ekirch

The book Michael references while discussing historical “first sleep” and “second sleep.” Later scholarship has added substantial nuance to the idea that segmented sleep was once universal.

At Day’s Close

Adverse Impact of Polyphasic Sleep Patterns in Humans

A 2021 National Sleep Foundation consensus review published after this episode. It found no scientific evidence supporting the claimed benefits of extreme polyphasic schedules and advises against schedules that substantially restrict or fragment sleep.

PubMed: Polyphasic Sleep Consensus Review

Behavioral and Psychological Treatments for Chronic Insomnia Disorder in Adults

The American Academy of Sleep Medicine guideline that recommends CBT-I for chronic insomnia and advises against using sleep hygiene as a stand-alone treatment.

PubMed: AASM Insomnia Treatment Guideline

Narcolepsy and COVID-19: Sleeping on an Opportunity?

The 2020 commentary by Fabian-Xosé Fernandez, Julie Flygare and Michael Grandner discussed in the episode.

PubMed: Narcolepsy and COVID-19

Project Sleep

The nonprofit sleep-health organization founded by Julie Flygare, who appears in the following episode to talk about narcolepsy.

Project Sleep

Mind After Midnight

A 2026 University of Arizona research project led by Grandner and colleagues examining whether nocturnal wakefulness changes decision-making in ways that increase suicide risk — a direct continuation of one of the research threads discussed near the end of this episode.

University of Arizona: Mind After Midnight

You know meditation teacher Jeff Warren from apps like Calm and Ten Percent Happier - here, he leads an exclusive guided sleep meditation for subscribers to The Snooze Button podcast.

This podcast uses the following third-party services for analysis:

Chartable - https://chartable.com/privacy

Neil admits to being a bit of a fanboy here - he's been listening to Jeff Warren meditations for years as part of the Ten Percent Happier app; here, they discuss the ways that meditation can help your sleep, how to start a meditation practice, and Jeff even leads a guided 8-minute sleep meditation toward the end of the show.

Plus, Neil's got details about a terrific offer for healthcare workers (and now grocery and food delivery workers, too) that can get you a no-strings attached six-month FREE subscription to the Ten Percent Happier app.

LINKAPALOOZA:   Website: https://jeffwarren.org/

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/jeffwarren.org/

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/_jeffwarren_/?hl=en

YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCUOpVNy60LTCmAwfZ6zOroQ

Do Nothing Project: https://jeffwarren.org/event/do-nothing-project/

Books: https://jeffwarren.org/books/

Consciousness Explorers Club: http://cecmeditate.com/

BONUS Ten Percent Happier Offer https://tenpercent.com/care

This podcast uses the following third-party services for analysis:

Chartable - https://chartable.com/privacy

In this episode

• Why Jeff’s first response to insomnia is to stop fighting the fact that he is awake
• The feedback loop between worrying about sleep and becoming more wakeful
• Jeff’s two-part approach: give the body something to do and give the mind something to do
• “Pretending” to be asleep and letting the breath settle naturally
• Why deliberately manipulating the breath works for some people and annoys others
• Hypnagogia and the strange images, sounds and associations that can appear near sleep onset
• Following bizarre pre-dream imagery instead of tomorrow-morning anxiety
• Why getting out of bed can be better than turning the bed into a place for frustration
• Nighttime awakenings and why being awake for a while does not automatically mean the night is ruined
• How Jeff became interested in consciousness, sleep and meditation
• The Head Trip and Jeff’s early exploration of sleeping, dreaming and waking consciousness
• How a New York Times essay led to a friendship with Dan Harris
• The road trip behind Meditation for Fidgety Skeptics
• Police officers, military cadets, neuroscientists and other unlikely meditation students
• Why Jeff is interested in adapting meditation to the person instead of forcing everyone into one technique
• The creativity meditation he designed for Josh Groban
• “Horizontal” thinking versus the quieter mental space where unexpected ideas can emerge
• Neil’s Stranger Things-like experience while focusing on the pause between breaths
• What Jeff means by awareness, spaciousness and “not being your thoughts”
• What meditation is actually for — from a Buddhist goal of reducing suffering to the everyday value of simply creating a little more space
• Why even one or five minutes of meditation can be a legitimate practice
• Why using meditation only as a tool to force sleep may put too much pressure on the practice
• Relaxing meditation versus practices that can increase alertness
• Why Jeff recommends experimenting instead of searching for the universally “best” sleep meditation
• Neil’s ongoing obsession with testing sleep hacks instead of assuming they work
• Jeff’s own mixed experiences with melatonin and weighted blankets
• Why a calming pre-sleep routine can matter even when it does not work perfectly every night
• Jeff’s guided sleep meditation: softening, settling and letting the mind drift

About Jeff Warren

Jeff Warren is a Canadian meditation teacher, writer and former journalist whose work focuses on making contemplative practice practical, flexible and accessible — especially for people who do not think of themselves as “meditation people.”

Before teaching meditation, Jeff worked in journalism, including CBC Radio’s The Current and Ideas, and wrote about neuroscience and consciousness for publications including The New York Times, Discover and New Scientist. He is the author of The Head Trip, a travel guide to sleeping, dreaming and waking consciousness, and co-author with Dan Harris and Carlye Adler of the bestselling Meditation for Fidgety Skeptics.

In 2011, Jeff founded the Consciousness Explorers Club, a nonprofit meditation community built around a pluralistic approach to practice. His guided meditations have since reached millions of people through platforms including Calm and Happier Meditation, formerly Ten Percent Happier.

MENTIONED

Jeff Warren

Jeff’s home base for writing, guided meditations, courses, events and his current work.

JeffWarren.org

Meditation for Fidgety Skeptics — Dan Harris, Jeff Warren and Carlye Adler

The bestselling book built around Dan and Jeff’s cross-country meditation road trip. The original conversation casually describes Jeff and Dan as the co-authors; Carlye Adler is the book’s third co-author.

Meditation for Fidgety Skeptics

The Head Trip — Jeff Warren

Jeff’s book exploring sleeping, dreaming, waking consciousness and other states of mind.

The Head Trip

Happier Meditation

The meditation app discussed throughout the episode as Ten Percent Happier. The company renamed the app Happier Meditation in 2024.

Happier Meditation

Consciousness Explorers Club

The nonprofit meditation community Jeff founded in Toronto, built around experimentation, shared practice and the idea that “being human takes practice.”

Consciousness Explorers Club

Mindfulness-Based Interventions for Insomnia — Meta-Analysis

Useful research context for the episode’s central question. Randomized-trial evidence suggests mindfulness-based interventions can improve insomnia symptoms for some people, while results vary by outcome and intervention.

PubMed: Mindfulness-Based Interventions for Insomnia

Ever been lying in bed, trying to sleep, and you just get the urge to move your legs? Or the feeling that if you don't, you're going to jump out of your skin?

Meet a man who's devoted an entire career to Restless Legs Syndrome and Periodic Limb Movement - Dr. Richard Allen just received the Outstanding Scientific Achievement Award from the Sleep Research Society, and we get into the weeds about what causes RLS in the first place, and what we can do about it.

This podcast uses the following third-party services for analysis:

Chartable - https://chartable.com/privacy

In this episode

• Richard’s wonderfully unexciting insomnia strategy: get out of bed and read Dostoevsky
• Why he preferred a classic to a page-turner in the middle of the night
• Neil’s periodic limb movement index of 82 and what that number actually means
• Why a high PLM index does not automatically tell you whether sleep is being damaged
• Micro-arousals, sleep fragmentation and waking up tired despite apparently sleeping all night
• Why periodic limb movements can be a bigger problem for a bed partner than for the sleeper
• The difference between periodic limb movements and restless legs syndrome
• Why RLS is fundamentally a waking sensorimotor condition
• The evening and nighttime circadian pattern of RLS symptoms
• Iron deficiency, anemia and the idea of brain iron deficiency
• Why normal peripheral blood tests do not perfectly measure iron availability in the brain
• Why Richard says not to self-prescribe iron without testing and medical guidance
• Hemochromatosis and the danger of unnecessary iron supplementation
• Oral versus intravenous iron treatment
• RLS in children and its relationship with sleep, learning and attention problems
• Why diagnosing iron deficiency in children can be more complicated
• Neil’s 2020 use of Mirapex (pramipexole) and what dopamine agonists do
• Gabapentin, pregabalin and the alpha-2-delta class of medications
• The limited use of opioids for severe, refractory RLS
• Why Richard considered iron treatment fundamentally different from purely symptomatic treatment
• His hypothesis about pregnancy-related iron loss and later RLS risk
• Genetics, epigenetics and the future of RLS research
• Animal models designed to reproduce low brain iron despite relatively normal peripheral iron
• MRI, sonography and other attempts to measure brain iron
• How Richard watched the field evolve from poor recognition and few treatments into a mature research specialty
• Why he believed sleep research often produces stronger signals than many small epidemiological studies
• Type I and Type II errors and the importance of replication
• What the evidence did — and did not — say about cannabis and CBD for RLS in 2020
• Why “this one thing works for everybody” was exactly the kind of claim Richard distrusted

About Dr. Richard P. Allen

Richard P. Allen, PhD (1938–2020), was a psychologist and sleep researcher in the Department of Neurology at the Johns Hopkins University School of Medicine and one of the most influential scientists in the modern study of restless legs syndrome.

He founded and co-directed the Johns Hopkins Sleep Disorders Center and, with Dr. Christopher Earley, established the Johns Hopkins Center for Restless Legs Syndrome. He also served as chair of the Restless Legs Syndrome Foundation’s Medical Advisory Board, chair of the International Restless Legs Syndrome Study Group and president of the World Association of Sleep Medicine, now the World Sleep Society.

Allen played a central role in developing modern RLS diagnostic criteria, standards for scoring periodic limb movements and treatment approaches involving brain iron deficiency, intravenous iron, dopamine and dopaminergic augmentation. He published more than 300 peer-reviewed papers on sleep disorders and received the Sleep Research Society’s 2020 Outstanding Scientific Achievement Award.

He died on December 9, 2020. In 2022, Johns Hopkins established the Richard P. Allen Lectureship in Sleep and Circadian Rhythms to support an annual keynote lecture and trainee award in his memory.

MENTIONED

Sleep Research Society — In Memoriam: Richard P. Allen, PhD

A concise account of Allen’s career, scientific contributions and legacy in RLS research.

Sleep Research Society memorial

Richard P. Allen Lectureship in Sleep and Circadian Rhythms

Johns Hopkins established the lectureship in 2022 in Allen’s memory.

Johns Hopkins Neurology Lectureships

Restless Legs Syndrome Foundation

Science-based education, treatment information, specialist resources and patient support for people living with RLS.

Restless Legs Syndrome Foundation

International Restless Legs Syndrome Study Group

The international research organization Allen helped lead, focused on RLS and related conditions including periodic limb movements.

IRLSSG

Current AASM Treatment Guideline for RLS and PLMD

Useful 2026 context for a field that has evolved since this conversation, particularly around iron treatment, gabapentinoids and the long-term augmentation risk of dopamine agonists such as pramipexole.

Treatment of Restless Legs Syndrome and Periodic Limb Movement Disorder

Boring Books for Bedtime

Sharon Handy’s sleep podcast comes up when Richard explains that, on a bad night, he gets out of bed and reads something interesting enough to occupy his mind — but not interesting enough to keep him awake.

Boring Books for Bedtime

The Idiot — Fyodor Dostoevsky

Richard’s middle-of-the-night reading material at the time of the interview.

Read The Idiot at Project Gutenberg

If the first thing you think of when you hear the word "hypnosis" is a Vegas act making people bark like a dog, this episode is for you. If you've tried just about everything to fix your sleep and are ready to try just about anything, it's for you, too.

Neil enters the conversation about hypnosis and sleep from a skeptical perspective. See if Dr. Dyan changes his mind, and maybe yours, too.

LINKAPALOOZA:

Dr. Dyan's Website   The discount code to save 50% off Dr. Dyan's "Deep & Easy Sleep" Self-Hypnosis package is HEAL2020 -  get the package and apply the code here.   The free video and eBook called The 3 Biggest Problems with Sleep & the ONE Thing You Can Do by 3pm Today to Sleep Better can be accessed via www.selfhypnosisforhealing.com/sleep

This podcast uses the following third-party services for analysis:

Chartable - https://chartable.com/privacy

In this episode

• Why hypnosis still makes plenty of smart, skeptical people roll their eyes
• Stage hypnosis versus clinical hypnosis
• Dyan’s own history with insomnia, chronic pain and discovering self-hypnosis in graduate school
• What psychologists mean when they talk about hypnosis
• Absorption, time distortion and everyday experiences Dyan describes as naturally occurring hypnotic states
• The fear of losing control or getting “stuck” in hypnosis
• Why hypnotizability varies from person to person
• The Harvard and Stanford hypnotizability scales
• What brain-imaging and EEG research can — and cannot — tell us about hypnosis
• Why a simple “meditation equals alpha, hypnosis equals theta” explanation is too tidy
• How hypnosis and meditation overlap, and where Dyan sees them as different
• Using self-hypnosis to interrupt racing thoughts at bedtime
• Whether hypnotic suggestion can influence slow-wave sleep
• Why promising laboratory findings do not yet amount to strong evidence that hypnosis treats chronic insomnia
• Returning to sleep after nighttime awakenings
• Dyan’s idea of needing to “rest in order to rest”
• Using short periods of rest and self-hypnosis during the day
• Neil’s experience with a Jeff Warren meditation and the strange state between breaths
• Why one minute of hypnosis is not literally equivalent to an hour of sleep, despite the suggestion used in one of Dyan’s recordings
• COVID-19 anxiety, disrupted routines and sleep during the first weeks of shelter-in-place
• A simple body-attention exercise: moving awareness slowly from toe to toe when the mind will not settle
• When Dyan recommends working with a licensed clinician rather than relying on unguided online self-hypnosis

About Dr. Dyan Haspel-Johnson

Dr. Dyan Haspel-Johnson is a licensed psychologist whose work includes clinical hypnosis, sleep and insomnia, chronic pain, mindfulness and mind-body approaches. Her current website lists psychology licenses in California, Colorado and Texas.

She is a co-founder of the Los Angeles Erickson Institute, a Past President and former Vice President of Programs for the Southern California Society for Clinical Hypnosis, and an Approved Consultant for the American Society of Clinical Hypnosis. She has also contributed extensively to Thrive Global.

At the time of this 2020 conversation, she described herself as licensed in California and Colorado and was already specializing heavily in hypnosis for sleep.

MENTIONED

Dr. Dyan Haspel-Johnson

Current website, clinical background, sleep resources and self-hypnosis material.

https://www.drdyan.com/

The Truth About Hypnosis

Dyan’s page addressing common fears and misconceptions about hypnosis, including control and what the experience is like.

https://www.drdyan.com/truths-about-hypnosis/

American Society of Clinical Hypnosis

The professional organization Dyan identifies with in the episode; she is currently listed by her own site as an Approved Consultant.

https://asch.net/

APA Division 30 — Society of Psychological Hypnosis

The American Psychological Association division devoted to hypnosis research, education and clinical standards.

https://www.apa.org/about/division/div30

Society for Clinical & Experimental Hypnosis

A professional organization focused on hypnosis research, education and clinical practice.

https://www.sceh.us/

Deepening Sleep by Hypnotic Suggestion

A controlled sleep-laboratory study relevant to the episode’s question about whether hypnotic suggestion can influence slow-wave sleep.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24882909/

Prepare to toss aside much of what you've heard about dreams - Dr. Celyne Bastien walks us through dreams, nightmares, lucid dreaming, somnambulism and the different stages of dreaming.

Plus, a ton on sleep apnea, and even bedwetting.

LINKAPALOOZA

Sleep On It! from the Canadian Sleep Society

Dr. Bastien's page at Laval University

The CERVO Brain Research Centre

This podcast uses the following third-party services for analysis:

Chartable - https://chartable.com/privacy