The Subrogation Support Network Podcast

Before anyone makes an offer, the subconscious has already weighed in. In this solo episode, host Ashton Kirsch previews his upcoming NASP webinar on the psychology running underneath every negotiation.

Ashton explains the "fast brain" behind snap judgments and why first impressions, from a demand letter to a hallway introduction, are so hard to undo. He covers priming and anchoring, framing losses versus gains, the power of a simple "because," choice architecture, and the "easy yes." He also gets into false memory, reciprocity, the IKEA effect, and physical factors like warmth and mealtimes that can shift a conversation.

He closes with practical advice: pick up the phone, watch for tells (including your own), and always confirm the deal in writing.

Tune in to sharpen how you think, communicate, and negotiate.

The big 5-0! In this special 50th episode of the Subrogation Support Network, Ashton Kirsch sits down with Carl Van, founder of the International Insurance Institute and one of the most sought-after claims trainers in the country. With 27 years of running workshops for carriers like State Farm, Allstate, and Progressive, Carl has spent more time listening to real claims calls than just about anyone alive — and what he's heard might surprise you.

They cover:

• The words and phrases adjusters use every day that quietly undermine their negotiations
• Why "I took a look at your file" and "I came up with a number" are costing you settlements
• The voicemail multiplier, and why letting calls go to voicemail is generating three to four times more work
• How to negotiate with attorneys without getting pushed around
• Why great customer service actually saves time instead of taking it

Plus — Carl makes the case that picking up the phone isn't just good manners, it's the single most underrated time management move in the industry.

Freight brokers have long escaped liability for cargo theft by pointing the finger at carriers — but the Supreme Court's unanimous decision in Montgomery v. Caribe just changed the rules. In this episode, host Ashton Kirsch sits down with MWL's very own cargo subrogation attorney, Lance Jones, to break down what the ruling actually means, why framing your claim around motor vehicle safety is now everything, and how practitioners can pursue brokers in ways that simply weren't viable before. They also dig into the growing crisis of AI-assisted fraud, identity theft in the trucking industry, and what brokers need to do right now to protect themselves in a post-Montgomery world.

Before Pete Fowler was one of the country's leading construction defect experts, he was digging ditches to fund a rock and roll career. These days, he trades the stage for the witness stand, but the performance instincts are the same: stay composed, know your material, and never let a smart opponent rattle you.

In this episode, Ashton sits down with Pete Fowler, founder of Pete Fowler Construction Consultants, a national firm with expertise spanning construction defects, fire investigation, slip-and-fall, and everything in between. Pete brings decades of forensic consulting experience and a refreshingly no-nonsense take on what it actually takes to move a construction defect case from a pile of documents to a recoverable claim.

They cover:

• The "minimum viable product" approach to expert engagement and why it saves time and money
• What lawyers and adjusters are doing wrong when they hand files to experts
• The post-COVID construction defect surge and the specific claim types you should be watching

Plus, Pete shares why organized files are worth more than you think and what a cabinet falling on someone's foot has to do with the state of American construction.

Most work comp carriers are sitting on billions in unclaimed recoveries, and they don't even know it. In this episode, host Ashton Kirsch sits down with Bradley Drew, Senior Managing Director of PACE Claims, to explore one of the most overlooked opportunities in subrogation: toxic tort claims, and specifically asbestos.

Brad brings over 30 years of experience managing asbestos and bodily injury litigation, having helped process more than a million claims and $40 billion in settlements through PACE's centralized facility. He breaks down the current state of asbestos litigation, including how claims have shifted from heavy industrial workers to take-home exposures and home remodelers, and introduces emerging toxic torts like talc, benzene, and PFAS that are reshaping the landscape.

The big takeaway? An estimated $2–4 billion in respiratory-related comp claims are paid out each year, with no effort made to seek recovery from asbestos trusts or the tort system. 

Join host Ashton Kirsch for a preview of his upcoming CLM Conference presentation on negotiation strategies, featuring claims experts Amber Guenther from Alliant Insurance Services and Cortney Helfrich from Wilbur Group. This episode tackles why negotiation is the most undervalued skill in claims, applicable to everything from subrogation recoveries to defense settlements. The panel discusses practical strategies, including the 70/30 rule (listen more than you speak), how to keep emotions out of high-stakes conversations, and why building relationships beats transactional approaches every time.

The conversation covers critical industry challenges like nuclear verdict fears driving poor settlement decisions, the importance of first impressions in negotiations, and how to train adjusters to handle difficult adversaries without getting rattled. Learn why every claim deserves individual attention, how to de-escalate heated negotiations, and why practicing negotiation daily (even when buying jeans) makes you better at closing deals.

In this episode of the Subrogation Support Network, host Ashton Kirsch sits down with Donnie Vaughn, a 15-year claims professional and author of The AI Advantage in Claims, to unpack what AI actually means for claims teams—and why it’s no longer optional to understand it. Donnie breaks down AI “101” in plain language, compares major tools (beyond just ChatGPT), and explains how claims professionals can use AI to accelerate everyday work like drafting demands, improving written communications, and tightening workflows without sacrificing accuracy.

Ashton and Donnie also tackle the real-world risks: confidentiality, public-source tools, “hallucinated” outputs, and the growing challenge of deepfakes and fabricated evidence. They discuss how carriers, TPAs, and subrogation vendors can implement AI responsibly (think: internal systems, security, and human review), plus what individual adjusters can do immediately to stay competitive—starting with learning how to prompt, verify, and refine AI output. 

Donnie’s book, The AI Advantage in Claims, is available here: https://a.co/d/07louEZr

Ashton Kirsch sits down with mediator and negotiation professor Lee Mendelson for a practical, subrogation-focused conversation on what actually moves cases to resolution. Lee shares how he transitioned from running a long-time subrogation practice to mediating full-time nationwide, and why subject-matter expertise matters when selecting a mediator—especially in technical and insurance-driven disputes.

They break down how strong negotiators prepare (and why most don’t), including BATNA/walkaway points, anchoring, objective criteria, and the difference between positional bargaining and interest-based problem solving. The discussion also tackles real-world mediation strategy: when early (pre-suit or early-suit) mediations make sense, what to include in mediation submissions (and what to keep confidential), how to handle difficult client/insured dynamics, and how Zoom mediations have changed participation and decision-maker access. The episode closes with actionable tips for adjusters and attorneys who want better outcomes, fewer stalemates, and a more disciplined approach to negotiation.

In this special crossover episode, Subrogation Support Network host Ashton Kirsch sits down with Jerrod Fussnecker, Army veteran, former JAG officer, military judge, and host of the Military Veterans in Law podcast, for a powerful conversation about service, career transitions, and the surprising ways military experience aligns with insurance and subrogation work.

Ashton and Jerrod dive into Jerrod’s path from West Point to Afghanistan to the courtroom, and how the discipline, leadership, accountability, and investigative skills honed in the military translate directly into claims handling, litigation strategy, and recovery work. Together, they discuss what employers should know when recruiting veterans, how veterans can better “translate” their resumes for civilian legal roles, and why the insurance industry is uniquely positioned to benefit from the veteran talent pipeline.

They also break down what subrogation really is, why it matters, and how veterans looking for mission, teamwork, and purpose can find all three in this corner of the legal world. 

In this episode, Subrogation Support Network host Ashton Kirsch teams up with Subro Sense host Aaron Jacobs for a deep dive into something most people don’t realize happens behind the scenes: true collaboration between subrogation firms. Together, they unpack how attorneys from different organizations coordinate strategies on market-share claims, large-loss commercial property cases, MDLs, mass torts, and product failures. They also discuss the challenges of balancing different carrier risk appetites, choosing the right experts, and avoiding the pitfalls of low-cost vendors. This episode offers an honest look at how cooperation, not competition, is driving better recoveries and shaping the future of the industry.