The Truth About Burnout

By Avery ThatcherSelf-Improvement

The Truth About Burnout episodes

May 06, 2024 Overcoming Burnout: A Journey of Hope and Healing with Joseph Reid
Avery - 00:00
This episode comes with a trigger warning.
We do talk about suicidal ideation and a story of a friend who completed suicide.
That being said, this conversation that I had with Joseph Reid, our guest, Is full of hope and a lot of relatability and a lot of power standing in your brokenness.
Joseph Reid is the founder and executive director of Broken People, which is an international mental health peer support group.
He is also active as a peer support specialist and family advocate with the National Alliance on Mental Illness, which is one of the US's largest grassroots mental health nonprofit organizations.
He's extremely passionate about his faith as a Christian, loving and serving his wife Melissa of 26 years and trying to keep up with his four awesome and challenging grown kids.
He is the author of the Amazon national bestsellers Broken Like Me, which is a wonderful book friend.
Avery - 01:05
He also has written a workbook companion and the brand new accompanying journal as well.
So without further ado, let's get into this deep and beautifully vulnerable conversation.
Hi, I'm Avery Thatcher, a former ICU nurse, and this is not your standard stress management podcast where we just focus on those band-aid solutions like the benefits of meditation, mindfulness, and self-care.
You already know that you need some kind of recovery strategy to deal with your stressful life.
But what you may not know are all of the sneaky ways that society, our upbringing and our high achieving nature, and so many other factors contribute to our risk of burnout.
That, my friend, is what we talk about here on this podcast because you can't do something about a situation that you're not aware of, right?
So if you're ready to get out of the pattern of burning out, feeling better, only to burn out again, it's time for us to shed the light on the truth about burnout.
Avery - 02:07
All right, so I met Joe ages ago and we were connected through another podcast host that has become a really good friend of mine.
And when I listened to Joe's episode, I was just so blown away by his story, by his vulnerability, and then also by his mission.
And so I'm excited to talk with you today.
So welcome.
Joseph - 02:28
I am super excited to be here with you Avery.
Thank you so much for having me on.
Hi everybody.
Avery - 02:35
Love it.
All right, so tell us a little bit about you and what you really experienced and what life was like leading up to that moment of burnout for you.
Joseph - 02:48
Yeah, so my true moment of burnout was in 2002. I was working in a couple of different ministries at my church.
And I just got back from Kosovo where I was doing some like youth work, church work there.
And Kosovo in 2002 was just right after the war that they had with Serbia.
And it was just a mess.
And I was so overwhelmed with what I thought or thought I couldn't do.
It was just, it was just a short time before then that I had lost my dream job.
I had moved to the west side of Michigan to pursue a career in law enforcement.
Joseph - 03:39
was hired by a police department and I worked there for a month and then I knew I was done.
So all of that kind of came to a collision at one point and, and this, and this idea of I'm a people pleaser.
So I was working really hard to make everybody in my life happy.
And there wasn't really anybody in my circle, in my, in my world that was telling me to stop and take a breath and that, you know, to, to guide me towards doing just a little bit less for my own health.
Back in 2002, we talked too much about self-care and mental health care and all of that.
I didn't know a lot about it.
And honestly, when I did talk about it with a therapist back in the day, I just
Joseph - 04:40
I just need to pray harder, I need to be a better Christian, I need to read my Bible more.
And one day my wife found a picture that I had drawn of me with a shotgun in my mouth, a picture I had drawn.
She gave me an ultimatum of either to go to the hospital or Um, to get taken there by police.
She, uh, she definitely laid down the law.
We had just, we'd only been married like three or four years.
Our kids were all young and I know it's a really hard decision for her to make.
And, uh, yeah.
Joseph - 05:16
And, you know, there, there are signs and symptoms going back to second grade when I really, when I really struggled.
Uh, with, with this, uh, balance and boundaries and, and self-deprecating thoughts.
And, uh, yeah, my mom and dad really hadn't, didn't know what to do about it.
And especially growing up in a hyper, uh, hyper Christian culture, you know, they did the best they could.
And, uh, you know, 2002, I get in the hospital and they drug the crap out of me, which, you know, that's just what they did.
And I experienced all kinds of trauma, like massive, massive trauma in the hospital from things that I saw that happened there, that I never wanted to deal with the mental health community again.
But fortunately, 10 years or unfortunately 10 years later, I went back to a hospital and there's a lot mixed into that story, but that's essentially when the major So if we were to look back and like follow you around with the camera, 2002 Joe, what would we see?
Avery - 06:24
What are those red flags that you'd be able to see now, but back then they weren't visible to you?
Joseph - 06:43
Yeah, so I was definitely immature.
I mean, I was a 23 year old guy and I think one of the things that definitely faces the quote unquote church or Christianity is this desire to put on a happy face and to fake it till you make it.
And it's bullshit.
It's a fucking lie.
Avery - 07:08
Yeah, so I...
Joseph - 07:15
And then something happened in 2018 that really made me shed all of that.
But that's, you know, going in there trying to be something I wasn't, feeling like this is the path that, that God had kind of laid out for me.
Believe in all the hubbub of other people and also dealing with this basic fear of my own inadequacy and my own stupidity that really kind of led to this, the culmination of the pain.
Avery - 07:46
So in that moment, when your wife says, Hey, either they're going to go to the hospital by yourself or the police are going to escort you.
What happens in your body?
Like what emotions, what feelings are coming up for you?
Joseph - 08:01
I was amused.
I was, uh, I was just like, are you serious?
Like the mental hospital and, uh, And she had actually spoke to my therapist that day to kind of set this up and kind of get some guidance.
I was deeply amused.
I was deeply scared.
After that I felt anger.
I felt backed into a corner.
Joseph - 08:32
I felt threatened.
And
You know, just the way, you know, just the way we grew up too.
It's like at that time in our relationship, I was the head of the house and my wife was the, you know, the traditional helper mate, you know, and, and we've really turned a big corner there in terms of our relationship and finding what works.
But it had to, it had to happen where I experienced that.
Those incidences of trauma or anxiety to actually knock me off my rocker and kind of hit a reset button.
Because I think you said in a previous episode, like, I think anxiety or no trauma or something is the body's way of making you take a break.
Joseph - 09:27
I thought that was so beautiful and that my body was like making me take a break and what my body wouldn't make me do my wife was gonna make me do because she's maybe five feet tall but she's a tough one.
Avery - 09:39
I remember you sharing that I think some of us Especially when we grow up in an environment where people pleasing is sort of our survival mechanism.
It really stems from this sense of trying to control all the reactions to keep this like feeling of safety.
And so when we're pushed into something or feeling like we're back into a corner, that feeling of safety gets challenged.
Does that resonate at all with what you're experiencing then?
Joseph - 10:10
Yeah.
And I think the feeling of safety, this foundation that I was building myself on was, was not very stable.
It wasn't very, wasn't a lot of foundation to it.
And I think, I think a lot of times in society, we will find that the things that scare us the most are the things that most make us the most angry because we don't know how to deal with them.
And you could definitely see that in terms of prejudice and bias all throughout both political and Racial and cultural and gender type arguments.
And I'm a list person and I do not like, I cannot do well without a spreadsheet or a list or order.
Something like that, and that, and that incident where she was telling me, Hey, you're going to the hospital and we don't know when you're coming back.
Joseph - 11:01
And I'm the only person that made the money in the house.
It's like, how is this going to work?
But it, it has worked and it's worked very well through, uh, through the story, you know.
Avery - 11:18
Absolutely.
So you did share that there were some things that were very traumatic for you in your experiences in that hospital, but what things did work for you?
What are the things that started to bring you out of that burnout?
Joseph - 11:32
In the hospital or just in general?
Avery - 11:35
Both?
Joseph - 11:36
Yeah.
So in the hospital, nothing worked for me.
It was a shit show.
But I guess the one thing was just introducing me to this whole idea of mental illness, maybe.
But then I had a friend that I met in like 2013, 2014, his name was Nathan, and he was pastor at my church and he's just like, we started this having these very I would say transparent conversations and just between transparent and vulnerable is vulnerable means they can do something with what
you've told them and hurt you.
Transparent is just like, Oh, these are facts about you.
Joseph - 12:13
And we had these kinds of conversations about, about what are both our struggle was.
He had just gotten out of the hospital, the mental hospital when he became a pastor.
And I was just about heading in again back in 2013 and so.
Connecting with him and then also going through dialectic behavior therapy around the 2013-2016 three years, which I call social skills for dummies.
Avery - 12:42
It's a great explanation of what that is.
That's awesome.
Joseph - 12:45
I mean, that's how it works for me.
So, and then, so, so his life, the church I was involved in was very open to discussion of mental illness.
There's a lot of talk of boundaries.
But there was still this kind of prism of me trying to be something I'm not.
And then on January 24th, 2018, my friend Nathan took his own life.
And that's the point where I just, you know, I love the picture of, uh, people back in the Old Testament that would like rip their clothes and dump ashes on their head and shave their head and, and just as a way of mourning.
And I did literally shave my head and, uh, and, uh, cause I, I lost any form of communication, uh, with the world.
Joseph - 13:39
Like he was my buffer.
He was my, uh, one person I could talk to that actually could understand and not just have empathy for what I was going through.
And so that really rocked my world to the point where massive things started happening very quickly in terms of my personal development, my growth, maturity, my relationship with my wife, my kids.
Yeah, it just took on a big change and that was a big part of it.
Avery - 14:09
So do you think that everybody needs that kind of earth-shaking moment in order to go on that same growth journey that you were on?
Or do you think that there's first steps that someone else could take?
Or do we need to have it kind of all taken away from us to start figuring out our own way through?
Joseph - 14:28
That's a, that's a really brilliant question.
That's, you know, as much as I've listened to your podcast, that's what I'm so thankful for.
Like you smart.
You know, my, my first response was, well, whether you need it or not, you're going to have it.
You're going to have those earth shattering moments.
And I, in 2016, I had met with this guy who worked in organizational development for the state of Michigan and for corporations.
And I had just talked to him about all the things I was doing with dbt and.
Joseph - 14:58
And the things I was doing to kind of just get by day by day.
There's a special scale I have, there's a way I do friendship, there's journaling.
And I spent an hour with him.
And so at the end of the hour, I was like, hey, you know, I was hoping that he would give me some specific direction in my life.
And he says, well, I don't really know what to do with you, Joe.
You know, it looks like you're waiting for a major catalyst in your life to push you forward.
And on January 25th, when I found out my friend had died, that conversation came back to me like a rocket ship.
Joseph - 15:29
And I knew immediately what I was going to do with the rest of my life in a very powerful way.
And everybody's going to have one of those moments.
And you know, in some ways I would say, if you're lucky, you can have more than one, but at the same time, they're very, very painful.
Like I said, I had, my house caught fire August 4th of this year.
My mom had a stroke August 2nd.
My mom just passed away on January 1st and I just got all of these things that are kind of building up and, and to find your peace and contentment and to find, it sounds strange, but this joy and comfort.
In my impression, God's goodness.
Joseph - 16:21
It's pretty amazing.
That's a long story, but man, there's been nothing but blessing through this whole experience.
And I'm so glad my perspective on the world shifted from, you know, what can this world do for me to what can I bring into this world and hopefully make it just a little bit better for one or two people.
Avery - 16:43
So I definitely want to get into that and I want to talk about how you're making this world a better place.
But just before we transition to all the awesome work you're doing, for that person that's stuck in the perspective of not being able to see the blessing, what would you tell them?
Joseph - 17:02
Yeah, I get it.
I think when you're in the pit, you know, and you're in the bottom of that hole and you can't really see the light on the other side, Um, that's where like peer support I think is so powerful because you can have these people that saying with, with experience and with real, with real experience and
real stories to say, yeah, I've been in that hole and you will get out of it.
I got out of it.
Just hold on.
We're going to, we're going to find a way, just give it time.
And, um, and, and I can honestly say that like the path that I've, that I've taken and the things that I've done.
Joseph - 17:43
Um, and the work I've done and the work that, that like listening to this podcast, for example, you're one of the great things that you do, Avery, as you say, like, I can't solve all your problems.
I'm just, I'm one aspect of the solution.
And, uh, you're one stitch on this whole tapestry of life and, you know, pointing people towards medication and all this stuff is really great, but they got to hear it.
And you're here bringing that message.
And I would just say, hold on, it's going to get better.
It may get worse before it gets better, but hold on, because if you let it, those opportunities of pain and sorrow will just make your story and your rebound so much more amazing if you let it.
And here's the real struggle, and I had to have my friend Nathan really kick me in the pants to do this, but the self-pity trap, that's a major drug.
Joseph - 18:37
And that's where I was for many, many years.
And if you can, and if you're able to just maybe see if you're in that hole and you're feeling self pity, if you can deal with that, uh, that's going to be huge.
Um, you know, so.
Avery - 18:53
I love everything that you shared there.
It's so important to realize that we can't just like close our eyes to.
The pit that we're in, the only way out is through.
And if you're trying to go through by yourself, you can do it sometimes, but it is so much easier with a person, somebody else holding the light while you're clamoring your way forward.
And that really ties in to what you're doing.
Does it not?
Joseph - 19:24
Yeah, I think so.
You know, I started writing a book the day after my friend died and went to a guy... Which is brilliant, by the way.
Thank you.
Avery - 19:37
Love it.
Joseph - 19:38
Yeah, yeah.
Act now, buy now.
But it's also made out of paper, so if you really don't like it, you could just burn it.
It'll keep you warm.
I started writing the book because I didn't know what else to do with my story, these different things that I do to kind of maintain life.
I didn't do these things to do a podcast or write a story, but these are things that I was doing to survive.
And when my friend died, I was like, okay, I got to do something with all the stuff.
Joseph - 20:03
And I started writing and then I connected with this other guy and he's like, well, you can Impact to people that read your book or you can have a larger impact by doing a ministry.
I'm like, fuck that.
I'm done with ministry per se, because I don't want to be pigeonholed to affect people that maybe quote unquote follow the same God I do or whatever.
Like, that's just not where I'm at.
And I was able to shed that, which felt really good to me.
To push back against that.
And so I started Broken People because when I'm at lowest point, that's how I feel broken.
Joseph - 20:35
And it's not to say that people with mental illness are broken, but it's this feeling that I have that in a way that I can connect with other people that maybe feel broken like me, which is the title of my book.
And the subtitle, an insider's toolkit for mending broken people.
You know, we talk about mending and I talked about you being a stitch in the tapestry of healing.
And that's just one aspect.
My book is just one aspect.
What I do with broken people is one aspect of a stitch in the tapestry of healing.
And here's another formula that I found to go back to people that are struggling in that pit.
Joseph - 21:17
Your pain, this is a formula that I use, pain plus passion equals your purpose.
So you have this desire in your life that you're always like, I want someone to do something.
But for me, it wasn't until that pain really hit me that I was just like, oh yeah, this is what I'm going to do for the rest of my life.
You think about the pain that a woman goes through for childbirth, you know, it's Glorious things can happen after pain if you let it.
Don't fall into that self-pity trap.
I have no idea what we're talking about right now.
Avery - 21:53
No, it all flowed nice.
Yeah, it was good.
So tell me a little bit more about brokenpeople.org.
Joseph - 22:03
Yeah, so we're just, I think one of the Like little sub names of the group is hurting people.
You've heard that phrase, you know, hurt people, hurt people.
Like that makes sense.
But I also believe that hurt people help people.
And that's what I think our organization does.
Our logo has, you know, a hand over and under and, um, I sometimes refer to our group as when our house caught fire on August 4th, our neighbors from two doors down came and fought the fire, their Mexican family, and the dad came in, kicked in our door to make sure our dog was safe.
The kids are outside spraying the hose on the fire and the dad's inside fighting the fire with a fire extinguisher while they're waiting for 911 to get there, you know, the fire department.
Joseph - 22:54
I'm in another city.
And I think that's what peer support is.
And I think that's what Broken People tries to do is we're not professionals.
We're in there, in the trenches, trying to put out the fires, waiting for that professional to get there where the real work is done.
But at the same time, like having that community of people, and we have people from 43 countries that are a member of our group.
So.
The idea that mental illness is like a Western culture thing, it's just, it's just not true.
Joseph - 23:25
It's just, it's not, it's very taboo.
I spent a month in Africa.
I just got back from Paris and like, it's so like hidden and, and it's still like this, even with gender thing, like there's this gender, like the rate of suicides among males versus females.
It's so disproportionate, but it's so messed up.
Yeah.
So broken people were just, you know, I don't have a grand plan other than just, man, I hope my, I hope me sharing my story in, you know, the fact that, you know, some days I go every 10 minutes where I have thoughts of suicide.
Um, I hope that resonates with somebody, but, but to also see that, you know, this guy who has those thoughts, who has that struggle, Uh, who self-published a book that became a national bestseller.
Joseph - 24:20
Um, you can do it too.
Like, yeah, I mean, I worked my butt off and you know, there's some things that I'm really meant to do.
And I think when you find that niche, like for me in second grade, it wasn't school.
It was drawing mazes and I was really good at that.
Uh, and I, and I guess I'm good at this too, maybe.
And I'll keep going until people stop listening.
Avery - 24:44
I'd say you're very good at this.
Joseph - 24:45
Oh, thank you.
You are very good at this too.
Avery - 24:49
It's a good thing that we all came together then because I think the world's going to explode.
So much goodness in one spot, so much goodness in one space, because I, you, you've talked about it and I think it's just so powerful in being able to share your story and have someone else say, Oh, I feel that way too.
And to not have to explain it to them.
Speaker_01 - 25:10
Yeah.
Avery - 25:11
There's just so much freedom in that.
Joseph - 25:14
Yeah.
And it's, you know, I don't know if you can see, like, I know your people were listening right now, but, um, with the passing of my mom, I've had so much anxiety and just to be real with you and your listeners, you know, I've got scabs all over the front of my face right here.
Um, which, uh, just for me pulling my hairs out and that's called trichotillomania.
And that's something I've dealt with for a long time.
And it's an anxiety disorder that, know, I don't realize that I'm doing it until I'm doing it and I've, I've got this scab or whatever.
And then people will be like, Hey, what happened to your face?
like, well, am I going to tell them the truth?
Joseph - 25:53
You know, it's, uh, these are, these are real things that, um, that I'm not really proud of, but they're part of my story.
And in some ways I'm like, I'm glad I'm going through this because maybe I could share this with somebody else.
Like, Like things like this with like the pulling their hairs out or self harm, like those are indications, especially when you do it and you're not thinking about it.
Like I'll, I'll wake up and I'm punching myself in my head as a form to punch, as a form to punish myself for a decision I made the previous day.
Like I don't intentionally do those things.
I don't intentionally have suicidal thoughts, but when I do, it acts as a warning flag going up.
Something's wrong.
Joseph - 26:38
This is your indication.
This is your indication when you're punching yourself in the head, what is going on?
If I'm dealing with fear, extreme fear, and I know that's an indication, a flag goes up in my mind and says, what are you being asked or what are you tasked to do that you've never done before that you don't have the confidence you can do?
And that's in these, these little ticks that I have and biting my nails and Uh, Avery, I've got, I've got scabs on my left arm that have been there for six months because I can't stop picking.
It's, it's just like I go to bed and I get so anxious.
Um, but at the same time, I've been married 26 years.
I just had my 25th anniversary of FedEx.
Joseph - 27:21
I'm working on my, my fourth book, published book.
Um, I'm hoping to retire soon.
Like these things.
In some ways they define me because they're part of my story, but they don't determine my future.
Um, they give me, they give me a story to say, I love you, uh, because I get you and please don't quit.
Like I hope my story is a story I hope.
And, uh, yeah.
Joseph - 27:56
I love the quote, broken crayons still color.
We might be broken, we might feel broken, but we're still doing some good shit.
Avery - 28:03
Yes.
So if there was one thing for the person listening today that you'd want them to really remember and bring forward and find that light in the pit for, what would it be?
Joseph - 28:21
Yeah.
So, oddly enough, whenever anybody asks me that question, I go back to this Bible verse, Matthew 25-40, it says, love your neighbor as yourself, this golden rule that Jesus said, and whether or not Jesus ever existed, who cares?
It's a very common saying throughout all different religions and stuff.
And what I think he meant, what I think what I get from that is, And what I find in people that struggle like I do, there's this huge compassion for other people to the point of we will love and help people to our demise.
And what I think Jesus was saying in that moment is your capacity to love other people is limited by how well you love yourself.
And I think if we can look at it in terms of.
How much more could I love my wife, kids, or my neighbor if I was just a little bit more kind to myself?
Joseph - 29:19
If I, maybe if I, I took another shower this week, um, for me, it was dental care, like brushing my teeth.
Like that was hard stuff.
Um, building a routine for that.
And might I say James Clear Book Atomic Habits is a brilliant book for people that struggle with mental illness.
It's brilliant because it makes the process of like, don't buy my book, buy his book.
Buy both books.
That's fine.
Joseph - 29:47
That's fine.
That's fine.
He simplifies the process of personal development.
I've got these things I journal like crazy.
I have a special way of doing friendship that's transformed my life and made friendship and taken the guesswork out of like, who do I ask for help?
And I've got this scale in my book that just takes the stupid out of communicating people with people where you're at.
don't have to tell my wife, Hey, I am thinking about blowing my brains out right now.
Joseph - 30:21
I can just tell her this one thing and she knows exactly where I am and what I need.
Yeah.
And you know what the people listening to this, this podcast, you know, you've got your own ideas and you've got your own passions.
They're not stupid.
Like you are doing things to survive that will be meaningful and helpful to somebody else.
Use that.
That's a gift.
Avery - 30:46
But a perfect way to end that.
Thank you so much, Joe, for sharing your story and sharing your wisdom.
And we're going to link to everything in the show notes.
You have so many powerful resources for people.
So thank you.
I really appreciate you being here.
Joseph - 31:01
Can I add one more thing?
Avery - 31:02
Yes.
Joseph - 31:03
Okay, so in a second, you're going to close out this show and you're going to say, you know, take some breaths and all that stuff.
But let me just encourage your listeners to go on there and leave a review.
You're not going to say it.
I know it.
But, but the more notice they give to you, you're doing some amazing stuff.
Give her a five star review.
Let her know how much good she's doing because this is amazing stuff that Avery is doing with this podcast.
Avery - 31:28
All of the things that you share that's given me goosebumps and then that, I'm going to go have a nice little healthy cry after this.
I think I've got some emotion to release.
It's just been such a wonderful conversation with you.
Hold please.
I know that these end-of-podcast blurbs are generally really repetitive and only say, make sure you're subscribed.
But this isn't like that.
Today, I have a little habit challenge for you.
Avery - 31:56
Before you sit down to do your next work block, I encourage you to take five slow deep breaths for five seconds on the inhale and five seconds on the exhale.
Doing this helps us turn off our stress switch which then regains access to our higher level thinking brain which is something that we talk about in the free course that's included in the productivity partner app which helps you design your pre-work ritual.
And inside that productivity partner app, each day there's a mini habit challenge where I take 60 seconds to explain something like this that you can do in your day to become even more effective and impactful as a high achiever.
You can try it for one week for free by going to thetruthaboutburnout.com.
Give nothing to lose and everything to gain.
Go give it a try.

33 min
April 29, 2024Navigating Tech Overload: Strategies to Prevent Burnout in the Digital Age
In the midst of the Digital Age, characterized by rapid technological advancements and nearly constant connectivity, our risk of tech overload burnout is steadily increasing. We can talk to someone on the other side of the world, complete a work project, read a book, order groceries, and change the temperature of our room all from the comfort of our couch. There’s no other way to see it: technology has become an integral part of our daily existence. However, as we continue to benefit from all these technological advances, the unintended consequences have become increasingly apparent.
The allure of constant connectivity and instant access to information has led to a phenomenon known as tech overload. This overload is marked by an overwhelming influx of digital stimuli, ranging from incessant notifications to the pressure to constantly stay connected. Combined with our relentless pursuit of success and achievement, particularly prevalent among highly sensitive high achievers like us, this digital dependency can pave the path towards burnout.
For us, who are inherently more attuned to stimuli and prone to overstimulation, the impact of tech overload on burnout can be particularly pronounced. The constant barrage of digital inputs can exacerbate our sensitivities, leading to heightened stress levels and an increased risk of burnout.
Recognizing the Benefits of Technology in Burnout Prevention
It's imperative for us to recognize both the positive and detrimental impacts of technology on our well-being. By understanding the dynamics of tech overload and its contribution to burnout, we can begin to implement strategies to foster a healthier relationship with technology and prioritize our mental and emotional well-being.
Technology offers us a wide variety of benefits that align with our unique traits and aspirations and have the potential to prevent burnout. First, technology serves as a powerful productivity tool, enabling us to streamline tasks, organize information, and optimize our efficiency. With access to digital resources and tools, we can leverage our innate drive for excellence to accomplish tasks with precision and effectiveness.
Technology also facilitates flexibility and autonomy, allowing us to work remotely, collaborate across distances, and tailor our environments to suit our sensory needs. This flexibility empowers us to create our own unique workspaces where we can thrive without the constraints of traditional office settings. Personally, I have a couch desk with a movable monitor arm that I can put in the right spot whether I’m sitting up or lying down. Not only does this match my energy as an HSHA, it also helps me manage my disability and chronic illness so that it doesn’t impact my workflow as much as if I were sitting at a typical desk. I often work with earplugs also because it helps me maintain my focus without the drone of the furnace or the sounds of the cat zoomies my one cat is known for.
When Technology Starts to Sabotage our Well-Being
However, the benefits of technology for us can quickly morph into a slippery slope of dependency. As we strive for excellence and navigate the demands of our environments, we may become increasingly reliant on technology to cope with stress, manage our responsibilities, and seek validation.
This dependency on technology can manifest in various ways, including an incessant need to check devices, difficulty disconnecting from digital platforms, and a sense of unease or anxiety when separated from technology. I get anxious when I have notifications sitting on my phone, and one of the main reasons I get to inbox zero every day is because I check and sort my email almost obsessively. I took my work email off my phone for a while, but found myself starting to seek out more complex ways of checking my email to make sure I didn’t miss anything urgent (although there was rarely anything urgent if I’m being honest, so there was nothing to worry about).
By recognizing these signs of digital overload early on, we can take proactive steps to regain control over our relationship with technology and mitigate the risk of burnout.
Work-Life Balance Becomes Blurred
One key aspect is the blurring of boundaries between work and personal life facilitated by technology. With smartphones, laptops, and other digital devices, we can be reached at any time, leading to an "always-on" mentality where work never truly ends. This makes it challenging for us to disconnect and recharge, ultimately leading to exhaustion and burnout. Even if we’re away from our devices, our minds might not be and we’ll have a busy brain thinking about whatever it is that’s on our to-do list.
Additionally, the relentless pursuit of productivity and perfectionism, often prevalent among us, can be exacerbated by technology. The constant influx of information and the pressure to keep up with the latest trends and developments can intensify feelings of inadequacy and self-doubt, further fueling burnout.
The Impact of Sensory Overload
Sensory overload poses a significant challenge for us in the digital age, particularly concerning information overload. With our heightened sensitivity to stimuli, we can quickly become overwhelmed by the constant influx of information from various digital sources. The barrage of emails, social media updates, news alerts, and other digital stimuli can inundate our senses, leading to heightened stress levels and cognitive fatigue. This sensory overload not only impairs our ability to focus and process information but also increases our susceptibility to burnout.
Emotional impact is another crucial aspect of the digital landscape for us, especially concerning digital communication. With our keen emotional awareness, we can be deeply affected by the tone, language, and nuances of digital interactions. Misinterpreted messages, perceived slights, and virtual conflicts can evoke intense emotional responses, leading to heightened stress and anxiety. Moreover, the pressure to maintain a curated online presence and the fear of judgment can exacerbate feelings of insecurity and inadequacy among us, further impacting our emotional well-being.
Cognitive overwhelm, compounded by the expectation to multitask in today's fast-paced digital environment, presents yet another challenge for us. Multitasking, while often glorified as a productivity-enhancing skill, can actually hinder cognitive performance and increase stress levels, particularly for us who thrive on deep, focused engagement. The constant juggling of tasks and the fragmentation of attention can lead to mental exhaustion and diminished productivity, ultimately contributing to burnout. Recognizing and mitigating the impact of sensory overload, emotional challenges, and cognitive overwhelm is crucial for us to navigate the digital landscape with resilience and well-being.
10 Practices to Manage Tech Overload:
Establish Boundaries:
Set designated times for checking emails and social media.

Create tech-free zones in your home or workspace.

Prioritize Self-Care:
Practice mindfulness meditation to cultivate awareness and reduce stress.

Engage in physical activities like yoga or exercise to alleviate tension and improve mood.

Practice Digital Detox:
Schedule periodic breaks from digital devices, such as weekends or evenings without screens.

Use apps like Forest or Freedom to block distracting websites and apps during focused work periods.

Limit Notifications:
Disable non-essential notifications to minimize distractions and interruptions.

Utilize the "Do Not Disturb" feature on your devices during specific times, such as sleep hours or focused work sessions.

Manage Information Overload:
Use productivity tools like Trello or Upbase to organize tasks and prioritize important information.

Implement the "Two-Minute Rule" for handling emails and messages: if a task takes less than two minutes to complete, do it immediately.

Nurture Offline Connections:
Foster meaningful relationships through face-to-face interactions and quality time spent with loved ones.

Join local clubs or hobby groups to engage in activities that don't involve screens.

Seek Professional Support:
Consider therapy, coaching, or counseling to address underlying stressors and develop coping strategies.

Work with a productivity coach to optimize time management and goal-setting skills.

Set Realistic Expectations:
Practice self-compassion and embrace imperfection in both work and personal life.

Challenge societal norms of constant productivity and prioritize rest and relaxation.

Engage in Leisure Activities:
Pursue hobbies and interests that bring joy and fulfillment, such as reading, painting, or playing musical instruments.

Spend time in nature to unwind and recharge away from screens.

Reflect and Adjust:
Regularly assess your tech usage and its impact on your well-being.

Be willing to adapt and make changes to your habits and routines as needed to maintain balance and prevent burnout.

While technology offers unparalleled convenience and efficiency, its unchecked influence can amplify the risk of burnout for us by blurring boundaries, fostering feelings of inadequacy, and perpetuating a culture of constant comparison and competition. Recognizing the role of technology in exacerbating burnout is crucial for us to reclaim control over our well-being and cultivate a healthier relationship with technology.

References:
Newport, C. (2019). Digital Minimalism: Choosing a Focused Life in a Noisy World. Portfolio.
Twenge, J. M. (2017). iGen: Why Today's Super-Connected Kids Are Growing Up Less Rebellious, More Tolerant, Less Happy--and Completely Unprepared for Adulthood--and What That Means for the Rest of Us. Atria Books.
Maslach, C., Schaufeli, W. B., & Leiter, M. P. (2001). Job burnout. Annual Review of Psychology, 52(1), 397-422.
Grant, A. M., & Rebele, R. W. (2017). Employees without a digital home: How digital nomadism can promote a healthy work-life balance. Academy of Management Perspectives, 31(4), 173-189.
Suler, J. (2004). The online disinhibition effect. CyberPsychology & Behavior, 7(3), 321-326.
Lanaj, K., & Johnson, R. E. (2016). Burnout and citizenship behavior: The cross‐level buffering role of regulatory focus. Journal of Applied Psychology, 101(6), 818-827.
Rosen, L. D., Whaling, K., Carrier, L. M., Cheever, N. A., & Rokkum, J. (2013). The media and technology usage and attitudes scale: An empirical investigation. Computers in Human Behavior, 29(6), 2501-2511.
Orsolya, C. & Zsolt, D. (2018). Digital Detox: The Effect of Smartphone Abstinence on Mood, Anxiety, and Craving. Addictive Behaviors, 76, 289-293.
Shu, H., & Geng, X. (2019). The Impact of Digital Technology on the Health and Well-Being of Children and Adolescents. Health and Well-Being in Chinese Adolescents: Current Findings and Future Directions, 179.
Miller, J. C. (2018). The Burnout and Technology Overload Phenomenon. Harvard Business Review.
15 min
April 22, 2024 Navigating Burnout: Insights from Corporate Leadership with Carolyn Swora
Avery - 00:01
Our guest today said that she liked doing homework growing up.
Which, I mean, I think all high achievers enjoy learning at some point, but as a high achiever myself I cannot relate to enjoying doing homework.
I don't think I like to be told what I'm supposed to be learning.
I really like to choose that.
But anyway, she is a really interesting person.
She has over 28 years of corporate leadership experience.
She brings a fresh perspective to mainstream leadership, which is what I really enjoy, and really wants to dedicate herself to fostering environments where individuals thrive.

Avery - 00:41
She is also the author of an Amazon bestselling book, Two of them, actually, including one that's called the EVOLVE, the Path to Trauma Informed Leadership, and she's been featured on ABC and NBC.
She has driven significant changes across departments from sales to marketing, reimbursement and customer service, and she's a certified Dare to Lead facilitator.
Carolyn Swora is kind of a big deal and I'm very excited for her to talk to us about her burnout story so that we can also notice some of the red flags ahead of time.
Hi, I'm Avery Thatcher, a former ICU nurse and this is not your standard stress management podcast where we just focus on those band-aid solutions like the benefits of meditation, mindfulness and self-care.
You already know that you need some kind of recovery strategy to deal with your stressful life But what you may not know are all of the sneaky ways that society, our upbringing and our high achieving nature, and so many other factors contribute to our risk of burnout.
That, my friend, is what we talk about here on this podcast because you can't do something about a situation that you're not aware of, right?
So if you're ready to get out of the pattern of burning out, feeling better, only to burn out again, it's time for us to shut the light on the truth about burnout.

Avery - 02:06
Welcome, Carolyn.
I am excited to talk with you, especially because you said you like doing homework, which I am a high achiever.
And I just, when I read that, I was like, ew, ew.

Carolyn - 02:16
I love doing homework and I'm really happy to be on here and talking with you, Avery.

Avery - 02:22
Sounds good.
Yeah.
So let's, let's talk about that then.
Cause we want to know, like, when did you first identify as a high achiever and what was it about homework that you enjoyed?

Carolyn - 02:34
Uh, you know, I, I loved school.
I can remember my first day of public school.
So I guess if we want to, and you know what, it probably goes back to kindergarten.
You know, that just reminded me, we had in our kindergarten class, uh, our teacher was, um, German and she gave the class a challenge.
Whoever could memorize The lines, I'm sure there were like four, I mean it was kindergarten, could play the role of Gretel in Hansel and Gretel and I went home that night, memorized everything, came back and got the role of Gretel and my best friend at the time was really mad because she wanted to
be Gretel and she had to be a tree.
So I think that's probably where we could trace it back, but I loved my first day of school.

Carolyn - 03:22
I still remember it and I love doing spelling.
I still remember how exciting it was to come home and do spelling and even like math exercises.

Avery - 03:34
So it sounds like you have a very analytical brain.

Carolyn - 03:38
You know what, if my husband heard that he would laugh out loud.
You know what, I have a thirst to learn for sure, but I'd say it's probably more of an emotional brain and I just love to learn new things.
I think probably some early signs of like a hyperactive brain maybe, always looking for the next thing.

Avery - 04:03
Hmm, yes.
So fast forward a little bit and tell us how did that play out in your professional life?

Carolyn - 04:08
Yeah, well, I do want to point out I wasn't somebody in high school for, like, I didn't even get 80% in high school.
I went to university, I've got four degrees, but I wouldn't say it manifested into a real academic-like career.
But how did that play out in my professional life?
Can we just back that up a second?
Four degrees.
Tell us what they are.
I'd like another one too.

Carolyn - 04:37
I got a Bachelor of Kinesiology first, that was my undergrad, and then I went to Teachers College, got a Bachelor of Education for teaching high school, and then I got a Human Resources Management Certificate, so a diploma, and then I got a Masters of Industrial and Organizational Psychology.

Avery - 04:59
Fascinating.

Carolyn - 05:01
Yeah.

Avery - 05:01
Oh, I love that.
And so what is your next degree going to be in?

Carolyn - 05:04
It'll be a PhD in something.
I'm not I'm not sure.
But you know, the amount of time and dedication it takes for that.
I'm going to wait till there's a bit more space in my life to do that.
But along the way, there's been a lot of certifications and such like, I just I just love to learn new things.

Avery - 05:23
Beautiful.
Okay, let's go back into then your professional life and how this is kind of played out and all of the path leading up to Dr. Carolyn Swora.

Carolyn - 05:34
Well, it's not doctor.
Yeah.
Oh, that's right.
Future doctor.

Avery - 05:37
Future doctor, yes, leading up to.

Carolyn - 05:39
That's funny.
I've never been shy about trying new things, let's put it that way.
And I found myself at a crossroads a few times thinking like, what do I do?
So after I graduated from Teachers College, I didn't want to do it.
And that's what put me into HR.
And you know, the funny thing is that HR degree or diploma, I never worked in HR, never once.
I did interview and potentially would have gone down that path, but I kept having opportunities put in front of me like, hey Carolyn, do you want to try this?

Carolyn - 06:18
Do you want to try this?
And that's really kind of how I followed my career was who am I working with?
Not what am I doing?
And that's pretty much defined everything up until 2016 when I left my big corporate role in big pharma.
How did all this play out in your personal life as well?
I'd say confident demeanor.
I have a very strong belief in myself and that I will figure stuff out and I'll get it done.

Carolyn - 07:06
And again, I'll come back to I feel like I can get through anything and do anything as long as the people or community I'm with works well together.
And that's always really been my superpower.
You know, one career path that I didn't take was I was going to become a professional coach.
So, I chose to do Teachers College instead of getting my masters in coaching, like athletic coaching, I would have gone to the Olympics as a coach.
But really my performance when you think about it on a court, on a field, is sort of similar to like in a business environment.
And so I think that's really how it all translated is how can you know stuff, but also bring everyone together so that you can accomplish things, whatever that might be.

Avery - 07:57
So this all sounds beautiful.
So how did Burnout weave its way into all of this?

Carolyn - 08:02
Yeah, that's a good question.
I just, yeah.
You know, some very unfortunate circumstances showed up when I was 31 years old.
And, you know, at that point I was, you know, I was going to have a big career.
I wanted to go global in this pharma company and I was pregnant with our first child.
And my husband at the time received a diagnosis, a pretty life-threatening terminal illness of stage four kidney cancer.
And that turned things around for me pretty fast.

Carolyn - 08:37
It was a big eye-opener and so I can't say I slowed down my ambition if I'm being honest.
I think I kind of fooled myself into thinking I slowed down my ambition or at least I tried to make more space to do more.
So the ambition and overachieving I think just amped up.
It just went into like a higher level because now I had this really unfortunate situation with my husband and we had a baby on the way and I had these career goals.

Avery - 09:13
Absolutely so we often talk about how hindsight's a jerk because looking back on it now you're like well there they were.
So if you could go back and tell that version of yourself one thing that they would actually receive what would you tell them?

Carolyn - 09:33
Probably would have gone back to the Grade 1 Carolyn or the Kindergarten Carolyn.
And I would have said he didn't really want to be Gretel in the play.
So don't go home and memorize those lines.
Do what you want.
I think that's what I would have gone back to say, um, because by the time, you know, Paul was diagnosed, it was already deeply, deeply ingrained into me that there was no room for, there is no room for crying.
There was no room for this not working out.
It was just like, well, Carolyn, you've done it before.

Carolyn - 10:13
You'll do it again here.
And this really sucks.
So buck you know, buck up buttercup.

Avery - 10:20
I just want to, that gave me chills and like brought tears to my eyes, just that thought about you doing what you want, not what you think you should, and just how that really played out for you.
Thank you so much for sharing that.
That was so powerful.

Carolyn - 10:38
Yeah, thank you.
Well, until you said that I hadn't really thought of it, just didn't know how to stop.
I didn't know how to slow down.

Multiple speakers - 10:49
So did burnout force you to slow down or did it do something else?

Carolyn - 10:54
Well, it did.
It forced me to slow down, but it took four years.
So by the time like my husband was diagnosed in 2003, my official burnout didn't happen until 2007. And by that time I had two baby like two kids.
And Paul was still in his battle with cancer and it was progressing but it hadn't hit a devastating point yet.
By that point he was still pretty functional.
So I kind of like to say it's like his illness gave me time to get better because we knew the inevitable was going to happen sooner than later.
I needed to get better before he left us and that's what happened so I did have my burnout in 2007. Do you want me to tell you what actually stopped me?

Carolyn - 11:50
What was the first thing that made me leave work?
Two things, because I couldn't listen to myself.
My body shut me down where I actually had trouble walking.
I couldn't move my body properly.
And the second one was a really good friend who happened to be a previous manager and she took me out for lunch.
And what she didn't know was that I was going out with her Basically to get permission to leave work for a little while.
I needed somebody to give me permission.

Carolyn - 12:25
And what I didn't know from her perspective was that my mom and her or she had been, I don't know the English, the grammar part there, but she and my mom had already been in connection.
And my mom thought that maybe, you know, Carol could talk some sense into me.
And so we were, I don't know, five, ten minutes into the lunch and she just said, you know, it's okay.
And I just started to cry.
It's okay to take time off type thing.
In fact, you need to.
So I probably would have kept trying to keep going, but the body and really good people around me helped me see what was going on.

Avery - 13:08
So take me back to that moment though where she gave you permission to feel all that you needed to feel and to slow down and to maybe leave work and what did that feel like?

Carolyn - 13:20
It was a huge relief.
It was a huge relief.
And so the thing was, it was a huge relief and I allowed somebody.
It's like until that point, I would not have allowed anybody else to tell me any different.
So it was like there was a wall around me and I wasn't doing it to be a jerk.
I wasn't doing it to try and brag.
It was survival.

Carolyn - 13:45
It was all I knew.
Because my mom had tried to talk some sense into me as well and I just, I couldn't hear it.
I was like, what do you mean I don't know what's going on?
I know everything that's going on around me.
So it was a relief.
It was also really hard.
It was really hard because I thought could have done better.

Carolyn - 14:07
I thought I was weak.
And I mean, I look back on it now and I think, oh my gosh, what's weak about any of that?
Like it's carrying the world on my shoulders.

Avery - 14:17
Of course.
But this is some of the narrative that society feeds into us that if we burn out, it's our failure, our lack of ability to take care of ourselves.
It's nothing to do with all of this water rushing into our boat.
It's that we couldn't bail ourselves out fast enough.
Exactly.

Carolyn - 14:34
Exactly.

Avery - 14:36
So we also talk about here how our red flags are sometimes hard to see because they're pointed at us and we only see the skinny side of the flag.
That's a good way to say it.
Yeah, I never thought of it that way.
And this is where people in your life can actually see the red flags because they're standing to the other side of you.
They can see more of that flag.
So what do you think all of those people were noticing that you couldn't see for yourself?

Carolyn - 15:01
Oh, there were so many things.
I mean, I was carrying this big career.
I had two, I had two promotions too while Paul was like during his illness.
So like I didn't stop the achieving at work either.
What were people noticing?
Probably pretty disconnected.
I probably had a very calm demeanor, but like not emotive, not emotive, like not too high, not too low.

Carolyn - 15:27
I'd lost like I didn't call my friends the way I used to so I lost that sort of that sort of joy and I wouldn't answer calls so I remember one friend she just she's like I'm gonna keep calling you until you pick up this phone this was back in the day where we did have voicemail and we didn't really
have text names I remember Yeah, and those were red flags.
I remember thinking it was just too much effort to pick up the phone and talk to somebody and thinking, oh, it's nice, but they just don't understand.
This is very isolating.
I felt like nobody could see me or hear me, even though everybody could.
Yeah, what other red flags would they have seen?
I couldn't, I had to have a lot of, well, I shouldn't say I had to have a lot.

Carolyn - 16:14
I don't know if people could see this, but you know, like I had groceries delivered.
I felt like I couldn't do enough around the house as well.
Like there's the overachiever, like what time did I have for that?
I felt like I was being judged a lot.
Again, I don't know if people could see that.
Maybe I was reactionary, I had some pretty quick reactions to things.
Perhaps, so not a lot of tolerance and always on the go, always on the go.

Carolyn - 16:43
You know, there was always things to go to.
I didn't like being home for too long.
So the boys, I mean they were young, but we still had things to do and we'd go visit people and I just was always on the go.

Avery - 16:56
I think a lot of what you're describing is really emotional burnout Like that might have been the primary driver.
And of course, we can experience all different, all the four different kinds of burnout at the same time.
But it seems like there was a lot of emotional burnout there for you.
Does that seem fair?

Carolyn - 17:14
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
I don't think I was, I know I wasn't dealing with any of the emotion.
In fact, there was a lot of emotion that was buried from previous years that had to do with my relationship with my dad.
And so, yeah, it really was carrying over.
And then Yeah, and then the whole part like not being able to walk, that was a short stint, it didn't happen.
For very long and by the way it was after I decided I was going to run a 10k because it wasn't enough going on.

Carolyn - 17:49
Yeah, so it was my body.
That was another piece as well.

Avery - 17:55
There.
So you said that something that helped bring you out of your burnout was emotional literacy.
Yeah.
So tell me how those are connected.

Carolyn - 18:06
Well, as part of my short-term disability plan at work, I was mandated to go see a therapist, which I thought was silly.
Of course I did, right?
And one of the first things he did was the stress inventory and you got points for the number of stressors in your life.
Yeah, I think like 90 indicated a lot of stress and I was well over 300. Like you can take any major stressor and it was going on in my life and he asked me he's like what do you think about that?
I'll never forget this and I looked at him and I thought inside my head I'm like well do you really want to know because I think everybody is just like weak asses like Come on, people.
And I just looked at them and I said, well, I don't know, it's not that big of a deal.
Like I can manage all of this.

Carolyn - 18:55
And that was the beginning of a really important element of my healing and getting better, which was, you know, cognitive behavioral therapy and learning to recognize some of these emotions.
Now, it opened the door for sure.
But I didn't really entirely like I maybe step like two feet through into the door and it wasn't it didn't really continue because you know Shortly after that, well two years after that, Paul passed away and then there was just a lot more to get and then my dad passed away in there as well.
So I got myself into the door in that phase which helped with the emotional processing but it wasn't until like years later that I was really able to start processing and identifying feelings and recognizing them and understanding that they show up in your body as physical manifestations as
well.
That I had no idea about until about a year ago.

Avery - 19:56
Do you feel open to sharing about what kind of brought that to light for you?

Carolyn - 20:05
What brought it to light was I took a few steps through that door back in 2007 to understand a little bit about emotions but in all honesty the survival mechanism is pretty strong and so I quickly I got better in about six months I went back to work after six months which gave me enough it brought
enough back into me brought me out of burnout enough to be able to Go through that last leg with Paul, which was, you know, another year and a half, almost two years.
And then, you know, carry on with the boys afterwards.
So what brought me to the most, the revelation about a year ago was probably like a burnout 1.5, 1.75. 1.5, 1.75. Kind of getting to another point in my life where I'm like what like what am I doing what's going on and it really you know it came in the form of relationships with people in my family
the people that I love the most and I was just reactive and short and frustrated all the time and things weren't going the right way and there was just there wasn't a lot of joy and you know by this time I'm a trained certified Dare to Lead facilitator and so I've been doing this work around
vulnerability since 2019 and really, really started to turn it inward much more and deepened my work with it.
So that was a big driver, you know, kids, the boys were older and that was a big driver of this is looking at the reflection in them.

Carolyn - 21:36
I'm like, oh boy, what's going on here?

Avery - 21:40
Hmm lots of really I don't want to say great red flags because that's kind of gives you the like yay feeling and it was not a yay feeling but still these are really helpful because I feel like so many other people that can relate to you and your personality and who you are can start to see some of
these traits in themselves yeah So go ahead.

Carolyn - 22:04
I was just the one other thing that came to mind is it became a game for me to see how much I could get done in one day.
And it was like a real high like, oh, look at that, I just squeezed that in.
And I was, I mean, I can juggle a lot, a whole lot.
Because before Paul passed away, if I go back several years, I also started a business, right?
So you can see this ridiculous overachieving.
It was more about not like not being able to sit still with my thoughts.
It was, it was pretty, it was pretty bad.

Carolyn - 22:42
And so that had started to really ramp up.
I just couldn't get enough done.
And, and my kids and my husband, I got remarried, would never like never see me.
And I was doing more work and it was my own business.
But the fact was my relationships were suffering as a result.
They're not getting the best of me.
I don't know if it suffers a big word, but they weren't getting the best of me.

Avery - 23:11
That's it.
And so our high achiever really needs to be balanced across all different spheres of our life.
And I think that's when we really feel in touch with that true high achiever, when we're actually living our best life, not just having the dream career that everybody would see as being the best on paper.
So tell us a little bit about what you're doing now and how you're finding that balance between everything.

Carolyn - 23:40
Yeah, so what am I doing now?
I would say I've had my own business now for it'll be eight years next year so seven and a half years and my business is around culture and leadership and where I've evolved that work to is working deeply with leaders.
And helping them create team environments that build on vulnerability and courage and also And learning that safety isn't just a checklist, and yes, there's psychological safety.
But how does our body wisdom, how does our nervous system show up in this?
So my work is definitely with leaders who want to go deep and want to deepen their self-awareness.
And for me, it's just a way of paying it forward for the people who help me find it.
You know, I believe we need leaders in our organizations.

Carolyn - 24:45
I know they want the best for themselves and others, but I think there's just so much push on, again, performance at all costs and performance, the best performance can come when you look after yourself first.
And so that's where I'm choosing to do this work.

Avery - 25:02
That's beautiful, Carolyn.
So can you tell us where people can find out more about you if they want to learn a little bit more about what you do and connect with you?

Carolyn - 25:10
Yeah, I'm at carolinsora.com and you can find all about my offerings there in corporate, work with leaders and teams specifically.
And yeah, anything that's going on you'll find there.
I've also got my own podcast, which you were a wonderful guest on.
Great episode on burnout.

Avery - 25:30
It's a great conversation.

Carolyn - 25:31
Yeah, and I've got a book as well, so really trying to get ideas and resources to leaders who are looking for them.
And then you can find me on social, the two most active platforms are LinkedIn and Instagram and you can find me at carolinswora.com.

Avery - 25:50
Sounds wonderful.
And of course, we're going to link to all of those things, including your book in the show notes.
Thank you.
So before I let you go, if the person listening right now gets only one thing from this episode, what do you want it to be?

Carolyn - 26:04
Life can be hard, but it doesn't have to be.
And we can experience joy every day.
And if your life doesn't have a lot of joy or you're finding it really hard to find it, then there's probably an opportunity to learn something about yourself that can help you unlock the door and find more joy.

Avery - 26:27
That was the perfect way to end it.
Oh, I love that.
Thank you.
All right, Carolyn, thank you so much again for sharing your vulnerability and your experiences here.
I know that they're going to help other people.
So thank you.

Carolyn - 26:40
Well, thanks for thanks for doing this work, Avery.
I think, yeah, a lot of people need to hear they're not alone in this.
So thank you for doing your work as well.

Avery - 26:51
Hey hey, do not press that skip button yet.
Yes, this is the end of the episode, but I still have something else I think you're really gonna like.
I know, you're already an expert at setting goals that push you out of your comfort zone.
Let's be real, you're a high achiever after all.
But how often do you sabotage yourself on the way to achieving those goals?
Perfectionism, procrasti-planning, over-committing, holding yourself to a double standard.
All of these things can sabotage our progress by either slowing it down or making it impossible for us to achieve our goals.

Avery - 27:24
Like we talk about so often on this podcast, awareness of what's causing the issue is the first step.
So take that first step by going to thetruthaboutburnout.com slash quiz to take our free quiz to discover your self-sabotage style.
And of course, I won't leave you stuck.
Once you complete the quiz and discover your primary self-sabotage style, I'll follow up with an email giving you ideas about what to do about it so that it stops holding you back.
Go to thetruthaboutburnout.com slash quiz to get started.
That's it for now, until next week.

29 min
April 15, 2024 AI and Burnout: Fostering Well-being in the Age of Automation
Avery - 00:01
As AI continues to reshape the future of work, it's imperative for organizations to prioritize the holistic wellbeing of their workforce.
By acknowledging the interconnectedness between AI adoption, job dynamics, and employee burnout, proactive measures can be implemented to foster a supportive work environment that promotes resilience, work-life balance, and sustainable productivity.
Hi, I'm Avery Thatcher, a former ICU nurse, and this is not your standard stress management podcast where we just focus on those band-aid solutions like the benefits of meditation, mindfulness, and self-care.
You already know that you need some kind of recovery strategy to deal with your stressful life.
But what you may not know are all of the sneaky ways that society, our upbringing and our high achieving nature, and so many other factors contribute to our risk of burnout.
That, my friend, is what we talk about here on this podcast because you can't do something about a situation that you're not aware of, right?
So if you're ready to get out of the pattern of burning out, feeling better, only to burn out again, it's time for us to shed the light on the truth about burnout.
Avery - 01:12
In recent years, various industries have witnessed a surge in the integration of artificial intelligence AI technology in the workplace, revolutionizing traditional workflows and processes.
A report by the World Economic Forum estimates that AI and automation technologies will displace approximately 85 million jobs globally While simultaneously creating around 97 million new roles, signifying a monumental shift in the workforce landscape.
And even though 85 million jobs are being removed and 97 million new jobs are being created, that doesn't mean that the people that used to fill those 85 million jobs will be able to fill those new 97 million new roles.
This exponential growth in AI adoption implies a variety of consequences, particularly concerning well-being of employees within these evolving industries.
AI technology proliferation has the potential to significantly alter job dynamics, leading to both opportunities and challenges for workers.
While AI promises increased efficiency, accuracy, and innovation, its implementation may also exacerbate existing workplace stressors and contribute to burnout among employees.
The relentless pursuit of productivity and performance coupled with the fear of job displacement and job insecurity and the push to keep up with technology can intensify workloads and really erode that job satisfaction, ultimately fueling feelings of exhaustion, burnout, and disengagement.
Avery - 02:47
So, artificial intelligence really represents a transformative force in modern society, characterized by its ability to mimic human cognitive functions and perform complex tasks with remarkable precision and efficiency.
At its core, AI encompasses a spectrum of technologies including machine learning, natural language processing, and robotics, each tailored to specific applications across diverse industries.
In the workforce, AI's influence is palpable, with organizations worldwide increasingly leveraging its capabilities to streamline operations, enhance productivity, and drive innovation.
This trend is particularly evident in tasks traditionally carried out by humans, where AI-powered systems demonstrate unparalleled speed, accuracy, and scalability.
From automated data analysis in finance and healthcare to predictive maintenance in manufacturing and logistics, AI is revolutionizing workflows and reshaping job roles across the board.
The adoption of AI technology in the workplace brings forth an abundance of potential benefits, providing that its value is a strategic asset for businesses seeking that competitive advantage.
One of its primary advantages lies in the increased efficiency, like we already talked about, because AI-powered algorithms can process vast amounts of data at unprecedented speeds, enabling real-time insights and informed decision-making.
Avery - 04:21
By automating repetitive tasks and streamlining workflows, AI minimizes human error and frees up valuable time for employees to focus on high-value activities, fostering greater productivity and innovation.
In theory.
Beyond that, AI offers substantial cost savings through reduced human labor costs and optimized resource allocation.
By replacing manual labor with automated processes, organizations can minimize human factor errors, mitigate operational risks, and achieve significant productivity growth.
Not only that, but AI's predictive capabilities enable proactive problem solving and resource optimization, leading to cost efficiencies across various functions, from inventory management to customer service.
Then when you take into account AI's ability to analyze vast datasets and identify patterns, you can see why so many organizations are turning to AI to make data-driven decisions.
So what's the impact on jobs though?
Avery - 05:23
The impact of AI and automation on jobs is really a big concern in today's rapidly evolving workforce.
Because artificial intelligence and those automated technologies continue to advance, the potential ramifications on employment and stress really need to be addressed.
Jobs becoming irrelevant is one of the primary consequences of automation.
AI's capacity to automate repetitive tasks poses a significant threat to certain job roles.
Tasks such as data entry, assembly line work, customer service even, they're all being increasingly automated.
And while this may lead to increased efficiency and cost savings for organization, its human cost cannot be understated.
Because people that face this uncertainty and financial insecurity in the wake of job loss needs to be addressed.
Avery - 06:16
Also, the rise of AI necessitates a fundamental shift in skill requirements as workers must adapt to the changing demands of the workforce in order to remain relevant and employable.
As routine tasks become automated, there is a growing demand for skills such as critical thinking, problem solving, creativity, and emotional intelligence.
Workers must embrace lifelong learning and upscaling initiatives to acquire these essential skills and navigate the evolving job market successfully.
However, the disparity between skill demands and workforce capabilities poses a significant challenge, especially those people facing social inequality.
So those who are already disadvantaged, such as individuals from marginalized communities or those with limited access to education and training opportunities, may face greater challenges in acquiring the necessary skills to thrive in the AI-focused digital economy.
As a result, the gap between the skilled and the unskilled, the employed and the unemployed, will continue to widen, increasing social inequality.
This widening gap also poses challenges for policymakers, businesses, and society as a whole.
Avery - 07:29
As AI technology becomes increasingly integrated into organizational processes, we have to consider its impact on employee well-being and these increasing rates of burnout across the workforce.
Increased job insecurity with workers and their managers perceiving their roles as increasingly dispensable, There is a heightened uncertainty about their future employability.
Always feeling like you're replaceable can lead to a very low job satisfaction, decrease in overall morale, and greatly increase that already elevated stress level, contributing to burnout.
And another thing to consider is that the implementation of AI technology may increase expectations.
And burnout rates, because organizations are going to seek to maximize efficiency and productivity through automation, therefore expecting more out of each individual than they already do, which is often an inhuman amount of work.
So with AI-powered systems capable of performing tasks at unparalleled speeds with accuracy, There can be this corresponding increase in workload and expectations for output from the individual workers.
Workers may find themselves inundated with tasks and responsibilities because their managers now expect them to be able to take on more because they're working with AI that'll be able to make some of their job easier.
Avery - 08:48
So they're struggling to keep pace with this relentless demand of their roles that are continually growing and changing and they are literally competing with a computer that does not need sleep breaks or food.
This perpetual cycle of high workload and pressure to meet productivity targets can lead to burnout and a sense of overwhelm.
Additionally, the lack of job autonomy emerges as a significant factor contributing to fulfillment burnout.
As AI systems assume greater control over decision-making processes and task execution, Data analysis and critical thinking.
Workers may experience a diminished sense of agency and control over their work.
This loss of autonomy can lead to feelings of disengagement, frustration, and disempowerment because they perceive themselves as cogs in the machine rather than active participants in meaningful work.
And there will be potential for fewer opportunities for creativity and innovation and self-direction if AI continues to move in the direction that it's going in because this is going to further exacerbate those feelings of burnout because we're going to be starting to lean on this more than
Avery - 09:59
developing those skills ourselves.
And so while I'm not saying that AI is bad and that we should avoid integrating it into modern day workplaces, it's clear that the link between AI and burnout still needs to be addressed.
Actually, there's clear indications that so many things linked to AI still need to be addressed.
By being aware of concerns related to all of these components like job insecurity, increased expectations, and lack of job autonomy, we can start to cultivate a more supportive work environment that fosters that Engagement and sustainable productivity and resilience.
Proactive measures such as really promoting that work-life balance, being mindful of the beliefs that are coming along with this AI as it continues to grow and expand into various workplaces and different roles and really just opening up that communication.
Because if we really want to make sure that we are focused on employee well-being and ensuring that we have a thriving workforce, we have to make sure that we're both aware of and addressing the adverse effects of AI.
Uh, excuse me, one second please before you skip on to the next podcast.
Avery - 11:19
If you struggle with getting caught in the weeds of day to day little things that you need to get done, you're going to want to try our daily planning one sheet.
It's completely free and we have both a digital version and a printable PDF version.
This daily planning one sheet helps you get your thoughts together, set intentions for how you want to show up, organize your tasks, determine your priorities for the day, and give you a tiny habit challenge for the day to help you get the most out of it.
Interested?
Go to thetruthaboutburnout.com slash planner to get that free download.

12 min
April 08, 2024 Unveiling the Healing Journey: From Overwhelmed Mom to Intuitive Guide with Leanne Mercredi
Avery - 00:01
Hi, I'm Avery Thatcher, a former ICU nurse, and this is not your standard stress management podcast where we just focus on those band-aid solutions like the benefits of meditation, mindfulness, and self-care.
You already know that you need some kind of recovery strategy to deal with your stressful life, but what you may not know Are all of the sneaky ways that society, our upbringing and our high achieving nature and so many other factors contribute to our risk of burnout.
That my friend is what we talk about here on this podcast because you can't do something about a situation that you're not aware of right?
So if you're ready to get out of the pattern of burning out, feeling better only to burn out again, it's time for us to shut the light on the truth about burnout.
All right, so I'm excited to chat with Leanne today because we met through another connection.
I think somebody else introduced us and it led to a lot of really interesting conversations and I'm excited for you to come on and share your story today.
So thanks for joining me.

Avery - 01:05
Thank you for having me.
I'm excited to be here.
Yes, so typically we talk to people that identify as high achievers and even though you wouldn't use that word to describe yourself, you do display a lot of the characteristics.
There's a lot of internal pressure, a lot of strive for as close to perfect as we can get.
So tell us a little bit about you and your story and what kind of set you up for that burnout experience.

Leanne - 01:33
I think as far as high achiever, it's specialized high achiever.
For one area, I was trying to be the best, where everything else didn't seem as perfect or I didn't really care as much, so I just let it fall aside.
I didn't think of myself as a high achiever because those things definitely weren't perfect.
So it's more just like tunnel vision on what I wanted to be perfect at or what I felt the pressure to be perfect at.
And what was that?
Being a mom, that was my thing.
As soon as I got pregnant, I always wanted to be a mom.

Leanne - 02:09
So it's always something I knew I wanted to be.
Even though society, family always tells you should be a mom, I actually felt inside that I really wanted to be.
That pressure didn't really bother me growing up because it's something that I always knew I wanted.
I didn't know why, but it was just there.
So when I got pregnant with my oldest, who's now 12, I didn't know what to expect.
But you just have this picture in your mind of what you see around with your family, your friends, TV, of what you think it should be, and it was not that at all.
It was completely... my idea of how it was going to happen was completely different.

Leanne - 02:54
So, my first introduction, I didn't really know what... For me, when I look back, it feels like I completely lost myself.
Like, everything that was me was gone, was just ripped away in a day and I was now a mom and I knew Nothing.
I had tons of expectations of myself and other people around me and it felt like everything was now about her, nothing was about me.
So it was complete loss of identity as well as I had to be the best and The first year was extremely difficult because she, looking back now it makes sense because she's been diagnosed with autism and ADHD and Tourette's syndrome and anxiety and lots of allergies when she was younger, so she was not
an easygoing baby, to say the least.
She didn't sleep and I was completely tunnel vision onto her and It is what it is.
I feel like that was something I needed to go through in order to be who I am now, but it was extremely difficult that I didn't know what I didn't know my value and I didn't know what I needed to do to bring into, like, for one example, like, my mom never took a break, she never went on date

Leanne - 04:23
nights, she never did anything for herself without taking at least a kid with her.
So I never, I didn't see anybody taking time for themselves.
I think the first time I was away from her, it was for like two hours and she was like seven months and that was... I felt so much guilt.
I didn't release or be able to do anything without guilt until like... my oldest would have been about five.
So that's a long time of being guilty every time that you're away from your kid.
So that really brought a lot of internal pressure and external pressure kind of combined.
But I also felt like that idea of like your kids being perfect and your kids being a reflection of you And having that pressure to behave in a way that society wants them to behave and my kids cannot do that.

Leanne - 05:29
It's not a realistic expectation for them to do that.
You can't have normal, I'm gonna say normal in quotation marks, expectations on neurodiverse kids or even any kids, really.
Anybody under the age of five Like any expectation goes out the window, you know, like every day, every mood, it changes everything.
So I really internalized and really pushed myself and almost like punished myself and like talking bad things about myself when my kids were acting up and saying that I'm the bad person for this happening.
I wasn't seeing it as a neutral thing of this is just happening, I was punishing myself.
And trying to do all the things, do all the baking, doing all like the all the treat days for school and just doing all the perfect things that you see all the parents doing or like you see other people being praised for and then doing it to get the praise because that will make you feel like a
better parent because someone's saying hey you did a good job.

Leanne - 06:35
And just seeking external instead of internal, I feel like that was a lot of it.
And also, I'm just an anxious person in general.
Since I was growing up, that's kind of something I carried with me and it really... I feel like... Being able to... trying to control or trying to be the best was the way that my anxiety manifested once I became a mom and I went down that path and eventually I got to the point where I... it came to
physical symptoms.
I was having anxiety attacks Like multiple times a week.
At one point, about a year after the anxiety attack started, I started to get arthritis, like autoimmune arthritis, to the point where I couldn't braid my kid's hair, I couldn't do up buttons.
When I woke up in the morning, it took half an hour to be able to walk, like I had to take hot showers.

Leanne - 07:45
It was not a good existence and it just it's because I ignored everything.
I kept pushing everything until I had a breaking point and that I could not exist without help and I had to ask for help and once I asked for help from you know a psychiatrist for my anxiety and rheumatologist for my arthritis once everything started going then I think I started to become easier on
myself because I think I needed to have that physical experience in order to justify the internal experience because my whole life, if it's not physical, it's not real.
Mental things aren't real.
That's kind of what I grew up with and so having it be physical I was able to get help.
Like I didn't seek help for my anxiety until after my arthritis started bothering me.
So like once it all kind of came together I was able to seek help and for me personally I feel like one of my life lessons is giving up control and asking for help.

Leanne - 08:52
It's a really hard thing for me and when I do ask for help then things start to flow and things start to come together and that is kind of where things started to get better.
was able to ask more of my husband because I was taking on a lot and I was able to just explain to people what was going on without any sort of preconceived notions.
And I feel like that was the bottom but also the opening.
Like hitting the bottom just opened up the ceiling so I could come out and start exploring and when that happened that also was when I started to dive into spirituality.
I started to become aware, I became aware of it and then I was ready to be interested and start learning and once I started on that path it just kept snowballing and I feel like that was my real Change into healing myself, healing the burnout, not letting that burnout or when stressors start to
come, I stop it or I'm able to let it disperse before it reaches ahead so that I don't crumble and get to a bottom point again.
It feels like that is my Not only a safeguard, just give me tools.

Leanne - 10:29
The tools to be able to manage it as it comes and to recognize it so that I don't push myself too hard.
I'm more forgiving of myself because I can, I listen to my body, I listen to my emotions, my feelings, I don't ignore it and just push it down, push it down, push it down until it's so loud you can't ignore it.
I'm able to listen to it a little bit sooner, which I think is the big key, is finding when do you listen and what tools around you can help you manage it.
Either make, I want to say go away, but be able to make it manageable or find This is evening it out a little bit kind of or just being able to know that you can wait it's okay not to fix it it's gonna get better just wait or just I guess it more of an inner peace.

Avery - 11:29
Yes exactly you've highlighted so many things over all of this and you've made it so that you've done your own interview like I don't even have to ask any questions it was beautiful just the arc of what happened there and I was just sitting back being like just doing my job for me this is great.

Leanne - 11:43
I was just like I'll just keep talking until you tell me not to.

Avery - 11:47
No, it was perfect.
So again, I just want to highlight a couple of things.
You talked about how much of your identity was lost initially in that birth of your first child.
And that is something that I think is really common with a lot of parents, and it's not something that's talked about enough.
And in our interview with Jason McCleary, we also talked about that, because he talked about how his identity completely changed with fatherhood.
So I think, again, this is something that we just need to talk about more to be able to normalize some of those feelings so that we can start to support each other in a much more deep way.
So I really just want to honor that you shared that I think that's so important.

Avery - 12:32
Another thing is with the high achievement it is totally okay for it to be single focused.
Because that is really common especially when we're early into our burnout phase because we start to say like okay well I've got to be good at something like the best at something so I'm going to narrow in on this and just be the go-to person for this and a lot of that then piles
things on and the internal and external expectations and so a lot of what you were sharing there was absolutely part of that journey into the high achiever.
Now you talked about how spirituality was kind of the thing that started to bring you out and then you also shared one of the things that a lot of people often say when I ask them like what was the one thing that You really wish you could go back and tell that version of you and that was to listen
to yourself and to hear what your body is telling you before it starts to say it much louder.
So tell me, friend, what are some of the ways that you can listen to those voices while they're still quiet?
What kind of hints do you have?

Leanne - 13:42
I think for me the most beneficial thing, because I'm busy, my kids are busy, is to make time every day to have the intention to listen.
Don't just wait for it to be loud enough because if you're busy enough you're not going to hear it.
You're so focused on other things because that inner voice listening to yourself is quiet.
It's quiet until it's loud, all right, and we don't want it to be loud.
So I take time in the either in the morning usually in the evening after the kids are in bed when the house is quiet I feel the most connected to myself and I Make note of how I'm feeling, sometimes I'll do journaling.
For me, I do a lot of... closer to like a spiritual practice, like I am a medium and I like connecting to my guides, that helps me a lot.
I feel like connecting to that part of my soul helps me be connected to my physical body.

Avery - 14:51
And so for the person listening and being like well that sounds great but how much time am I supposed to do?
Like how long is this gonna take?
Tell me what does that look like for you?
How long sort of on average does this practice take per day?

Leanne - 15:05
Well I'd say I try to do five minutes and that's like my goal.
And most of the time, especially if I do it at night time, it'll go longer because I'm not having fun, I'm enjoying it and I don't have a time frame and I know my body's resting, I'm not, I usually do this lying down so that like I know that like if I fall asleep it's fine and I know that I'm not
busy doing something so even if I'm awake in my mind playing around for a couple hours, I'm still resting so I still count it as part of like Almost sleep, especially since your brain is kind of on a different wavelength, so it kind of works, but I don't think you have to have any sort of
development level or anything to do this.
I think it's laying down and I think focusing on your body, like maybe starting at your head or your feet and checking in to see how each part of you feels, if there's tension there, Saying, hey, what can we do to relax this?
Can we relax this more?
And then playing around.

Leanne - 16:16
And for me, it needs to feel like playing, not a chore.

Avery - 16:22
Yes, okay, yes.
So if you were listening and you were expecting Leanne to say more than five minutes and you were thinking she'd be like, oh, I spent 30 minutes on this, an hour on this, and the five minutes shocked you, That's a good thing.
Allow that surprise to help cultivate some of that playfulness.
And that's the other thing which I wanted to chat to you about.
I love that you said you want it to be fun and playful and without expectation.
So does it always work that way for you?
Or do you have times where it feels a little bit more like a chore, but you do it anyway?

Leanne - 16:56
I'd say at this point, no, because I think it's really fun and I get to do it.
At the beginning, it felt like I had to do it, but it was like I need to do this in order to feel good.
I prioritize the chore.
So I feel like I didn't have a point where I was like, oh, I don't want to do this necessarily.
There are times where I forget and it's not a big deal.
I don't punish myself for it.
It's just like, okay, it didn't happen.

Leanne - 17:28
But I really try.
Let's say if the kids are really not going to sleep.
And then by the time I'm in bed, I'm just like, I'm done.
I'm just going to sleep.
So be it.
It's just like, it happens.
But when everybody kind of just goes to bed and you're just like, hey, this is amazing.

Leanne - 17:45
I'm going to, I'm going to play around in my brain.
I'm going to just, and it can also be, I, this is one thing I'm really kind of passionate about.
It's just like your intuition or listening to yourself.
It's just imagination.
You could just lay in bed and just imagine something fun and you can... I find that it also connects you with yourself because in that imagination zone you will eventually get to a place where you kind of... you're not searching outward, you're going inward and then you'll start to notice things
about yourself.
But having something to look forward to like if when I was little I was always imagining I was always pretending in my head I was always making up stories and just kind of sitting in my room and Making stories in my head.

Leanne - 18:39
So for me, that's fun.
So if someone else thinks imagination or daydreaming is fun, then go more that route.
And if you want something just quick, just checking your body and seeing how it goes would be what I would say to work on.
But Yeah, I feel like the most important thing is that it can't be hard because I'm so busy and I've always been really busy and if it took up a lot of time I don't want to do it unless I really love it.
If I love it then I'll spend time on it but if I don't love it it's just got to be like easy peasy.
Agreed.

Avery - 19:22
So I love that you provided both of those action steps and made it really easy for the person that maybe identifies as more intuitive and then the person that maybe identifies as more intellectual.
You gave them two brilliant different options there, so thank you for that.

Multiple speakers - 19:35
You're welcome.

Avery - 19:36
So I think that ties in beautifully to talk a little bit more about what you do now and how you help people now.
I feel like you're definitely on the intuitive side of that.
Oh man, that's me, huh?

Leanne - 19:51
So I'm an intuitive medium.
That's how I kind of came into this spiritual world.
My grandfather started talking to me and I was like, what the heck?
That kind of blew my mind and then I started developing and working with teachers and through there I learned about The Akashic records and diving into past lives because I was asking about past lives when I was in that five minutes going to sleep I was like talking to my grandpa and then asking
about past lives and I'd get flashes of past lives I was like okay interesting but I didn't know how to further go into that so I learned about the Akashic records and that really opened a big door for me and the Akashic records are It is a non-physical dimension that holds the information of the
universe.
Your soul has all the lives you've lived, all your energy.

Leanne - 20:55
and there's like a little section that's just for you and there's a section for every soul and there's a section for all the planets and all the things it's just a giant library of information and you have access to yours all the time and you do have access to yours so every time you're doing
something like if you've ever done something and brand new but it comes easy It's because you've had it in another life and it's been sent in and you can do it.
It's just the connection you have to your soul feels like it just... I keep saying it's just that, sorry.

Avery - 21:27
Yeah, all good.
So what would somebody get from that?
Like why would somebody want to know how to access their Akashic records?

Leanne - 21:37
For me, I had questions about who I was, where I came from, what I've done before, what things I've had challenges with and I kind of went in more of a direction of what were my struggles, my challenges, my traumas in the past life that are affecting me now and how can I heal that, how can I work
through that, how can I If you're like completing the cycle, complete the loop so that I can move on without that weight dragging me down.
Because I've been pulling that with me, can I make my load lighter?
Can I make my load easier?
So through the Akashic records, I learned how to access information and then I'm also a Reiki master, so I use that information plus When I'm in a cache of records, I can ask the guides and the soul I'm working with in my soul what type of healings or what kind of techniques I can use to help
lighten the load or move forward and the techniques that the person can Mhmm, I agree, I agree.

Avery - 23:15
Alright, so tell me then if people are listening to that and they're like, oh, that sounds good.
So where would they need to go?
How could they get in touch with you?

Leanne - 23:23
So my website is spruceenergyhealing.com.
On Instagram and Facebook, I'm Spruce Energy Healing.
I'm also on YouTube, Spruce Energy Healing, like I kind of put all my stuff in all of it.
Brilliant.
Yeah, yeah.
And on my website, there's a booking link.
You go through the work with me tab and you can see my offerings.

Leanne - 23:47
And I also have a podcast, Life of a Lightworker, and That for me was a huge healing experience which I am so proud of myself for doing because I didn't want to talk, I didn't want to be seen, I didn't want to be heard and that really pushed me out of my comfort zone and I'm so glad I did it because
things that were scary aren't scary anymore.
So every time something scary happens, I'm like, it's not going to be scary after I do it a few times.
And so you have that more confidence, the more scary things to do, the more scary things you're willing to do.

Avery - 24:28
Oh, beautifully said.
We're gonna definitely have that be the like feature quote of this episode.

Leanne - 24:33
Beautiful.

Avery - 24:34
Lovely.
Oh, wonderful.
Beautiful.
All right, love.
So before I let you go, if you had one piece of advice for somebody that's experiencing burnout or pre burnout right now, what would you tell them?

Leanne - 24:50
I would say it's okay.
You don't you don't need to Not be where you are.
Where you are is perfect.
Where you are is where you're meant to be and stop trying to get out of it and start trying to try to be in it.
Be yourself.
Honor the moment you're in.
Honor that where you are is hard.

Leanne - 25:17
It may suck but it's not going to last forever and Try to reach out and ask for help because it feels really isolating when you're in that moment, it feels shameful, it feels like you don't want to ask for help.
I feel like once you recognize it in yourself then it's easier to ask for help.

Avery - 25:36
I love all of that.
Thank you so much Leanne.
You're welcome.
And thank you so much for sharing your story and sharing what's working and what you do and how you help people.
I think there will just be a lot of people resonating with us today.
So I really appreciate you.

Leanne - 25:51
Thank you so much.
I appreciate you.

Avery - 25:56
Hey, do not press that skip button yet.
Yes, this is the end of the episode, but I still have something else I think you're really gonna like.
I know you're already an expert at setting goals that push you out of your comfort zone.
Let's be real, you're a high achiever after all.
But how often do you sabotage yourself on the way to achieving those goals?
Perfectionism, procrasti-planning, over-committing, holding yourself to a double standard.
All of these things can sabotage our progress by either slowing it down or making it impossible for us to achieve our goals.

Avery - 26:30
Like we talk about so often on this podcast, awareness of what's causing the issue is the first step.
So take that first step by going to thetruthaboutburnout.com slash quiz To take our free quiz to discover your self-sabotage style.
And of course, I won't leave you stuck.
Once you complete the quiz and discover your primary self-sabotage style, I'll follow up with an email giving you ideas about what to do about it so that it stops holding you back.
Go to thetruthaboutburnout.com to get started.
That's it for now, until next week.

28 min
April 01, 2024 5 sneaky ways social media can cause burnout
Avery - 00:00
While social media offers avenues for connection, expression, and exploration, we all know that its influence isn't always to our benefit.
In fact, it's really important for us to look at how social media contributes to burnout rates because neither is going anywhere.
From incessant comparison to the relentless fear of missing out or FOMO, social platforms have a profound impact on our mental health, often making our stress worse rather than leave us feeling better after taking a break to scroll through our favorite platform.
The complex relationship that we have with social media shapes our perceptions of success, happiness, and self-worth.
And there are five key ways that social media perpetuates burnout and by confronting these realities head on, we empower ourselves to reclaim agency over our digital experiences and create a more balanced life because awareness is the first step.
Hi, I'm Avery Thatcher, a former ICU nurse, and this is not your standard stress management podcast where we just focus on those band-aid solutions like the benefits of meditation, mindfulness, and self-care.
You already know that you need some kind of recovery strategy to deal with your stressful life.

Avery - 01:12
But what you may not know are all of the sneaky ways that society, our upbringing and our high achieving nature, and so many other factors contribute to our risk of burnout.
That, my friend, is what we talk about here on this podcast because you can't do something about a situation that you're not aware of, right?
So if you're ready to get out of the pattern of burning out, feeling better, only to burn out again, it's time for us to shut the light on the truth about burnout.
The first way that social media causes burnout is social comparison.
Social media platforms are built for comparison because the algorithm rewards a curated public view.
This can have a profound implication for individuals' wellbeing, contributing significantly to burnout rates and unhealthy mental health experiences.
Constant exposure to carefully crafted portrayals of success, beauty, and happiness on social media can lead individuals to engage in upward social comparison wherein they measure their achievements and attributes against those that others are putting out there and they perceive to be better than

Avery - 02:26
them.
As individuals strive to keep up with the seemingly perfect lives of their peers, they may experience heightened levels of stress, anxiety, and dissatisfaction with their own life.
The pressure to maintain a flawless online persona while simultaneously grappling with the realities of daily life can be overwhelming and isolating, making the feelings of burnout and exhaustion so much worse.
Not to mention, the likes, comments, and shares creates a constant pursuit of validation and approval that can become a source of chronic stress and anxiety.
The constant need for affirmation and recognition can perpetuate a cycle of validating seeking behavior ultimately leading to emotional exhaustion and burnout.
The second way that social media can cause burnout is FOMO, the fear of missing out.
So just as it was with social comparison, FOMO cultivates a sense of inadequacy and anxiety.

Avery - 03:21
The pressures to keep up with the seemingly endless stream of social engagements, travel adventures, and milestone achievements can be overwhelming, leading to chronic stress and emotional exhaustion.
This relentless pursuit of new experiences driven by FOMO can result in a constant state of busyness and over-commitment, Leaving individuals feeling drained and depleted.
The fear of missing out on opportunities for social connection or professional advancement drive individuals to continuously check in on their social media feeds, sacrificing precious time for rest and self-care in the process.
The third way that social media causes burnout is the online harassment and bullying experience.
There is a pervasive culture of online harassment that creates a toxic environment that fosters feelings of fear, distrust, and disillusionment which further exacerbates burnout rates among users.
In fact, the rate of being targeted by online harassment has increased significantly in just four years, jumping from 35% to 41% of people in the US experiencing some form of online harassment.
Understandably, this can have profound implication for individuals' mental health and wellbeing contributing to these heightened levels of burnout.

Avery - 04:36
For victims of online harassment, the constant onslaught of abusive behaviour can lead to heightened levels of stress, anxiety, and emotional distress.
The fear of being targeted or humiliated online can consume individuals' thoughts and emotions, leaving them feeling isolated, vulnerable, and overwhelmed.
The relentless pressure to have an online presence while trying to avoid harassment can take a significant toll on individuals' mental health.
Again, exacerbating those feelings of burnout and exhaustion.
And also, the emotional toll of witnessing the suffering of others, coupled with feelings of helplessness and frustration, can contribute to secondary trauma and compassion fatigue.
Once a safe place to go and relax, the online bullying prevalent on social media perpetuates this cycle of negativity and conflict, making it so much harder for individuals to find that moment of respite.
The constant exposure to hostile and inflammatory content can also erode individuals' sense of safety and wellbeing, which again leads to heightened levels of stress and emotional exhaustion.

Avery - 05:43
The fourth way that social media can be causing burnout is the impact of influencer culture.
Social media influencers wield significant influence over their followers, shaping trends, lifestyles, and consumer behaviors.
However, the pervasive influence of social media influencers can also have a profound implication for individuals with mental health and well-being, which contributes again to those heightened levels of burnout.
The curated portrayals of success, beauty, and happiness showcased by influencers on social media platforms can create those unrealistic standards and expectations for the followers that we talked about in that comparisonitis.
As individuals strive to emulate the seemingly perfect lives of their favorite influencers, they may experience heightened levels of stress, anxiety, and self-doubt.
The pressure to achieve similar levels of success and fulfillment can be overwhelming and lead people to push themselves through emotional exhaustion and into burnout.
This drive for affirmation and recognition from these influencers can also leave individuals feeling insecure and inadequate, especially if they write to these people and don't get a response, which again just makes those feelings of burnout and emotional distress even worse.

Avery - 06:57
Also, the commercialization of social media through influencer marketing can contribute to the heightened levels of consumerism and materialism among their followers.
This pressure to keep up with the latest trends and purchase products endorsed by these influencers can lead to financial strain and feelings of dissatisfaction with one's own life.
Just look at the Stanley travel mug trend.
This pursuit of material possessions and external validation can detract from meaningful experiences and relationships, ultimately contributing to burnout and emotional exhaustion.
And finally, the last reason why social media could be contributing to burnout is the weaponization of self-care strategies.
Self-care has become a popular buzzword on social media with countless posts and articles promoting various self-care strategies as a remedy for burnout and stress.
However, the portrayal of self-care on social media is often oversimplified, misinformed, or even shaming, which contributes to that heightened level of burnout and emotional distress because they don't feel like they're, quote, doing it right.

Avery - 08:03
Many self-care strategies promoted on social media platforms focus solely on superficial acts of self-indulgence or pampering, such as indulging in spa days, treating oneself to luxurious items, going for a massage, or engaging in elaborate beauty routines.
And while these activities may provide temporary relief or distraction from stress, they fail to address the underlying causes of burnout and emotional exhaustion.
Self-care is not a cure-all for burnout and can inadvertently shame individuals who struggle to prioritize their well-being or engage in self-care practices that align with their needs and values.
The pressure to adhere to societal expectations of self-care can leave individuals feeling inadequate or guilty for not measuring up to these unrealistic standards set by influencers and social media influencers.
I say it often that I really wish I could meet the person that said that you must do 30 minutes of self-care every day.
And I want to ask them why?
Why would you set such an unrealistic standard for so many people in this fast-forward modern world?

Avery - 09:07
Carving out a solid half hour to indulge in self-care is not possible for the majority of us.
Finally, the commodification of self-care on social media platforms can again contribute to that culture of consumerism and materialism where self-worth is equated with the ability to purchase products or experiences that are marketed as self-care essentials.
The emphasis on internal fixes and quick fixes distracts from the really true essence of self-care which is really rooted in nurturing one's physical, emotional, and mental well-being.
So, from this relentless pressure of comparison to the pervasive fear of missing out, social media exerts a profound influence on our mental health and wellbeing.
And in the prevalence of online harassment and the sway of influencers and the commodification of stress management strategies, social media further amplifies the challenges that we face in maintaining balance and resilience in this fast-forward digital age.
But by acknowledging these complexities, we empower ourselves to navigate social media with mindfulness and intentionality, reclaiming our agency over our digital experiences and fostering a culture of well-being in this digital realm.
Because it's always through awareness, empathy, and collective action that we can begin to mitigate the detrimental effects of burnout culture and cultivate a more nurturing, sustainable relationship with social media.

Avery - 10:35
What do you think?
Do you think that social media contributes to burnout culture?
Send me an email.
Let me know.
Avery at BecomingAvery.com Hey, hey.
Do not press that skip button yet.
Yes, this is the end of the episode, but I still have something else I think you're really going to like.

Avery - 10:54
I know you're already an expert at setting goals that push you out of your comfort zone.
Let's be real, you're a high achiever after all.
But how often do you sabotage yourself on the way to achieving those goals?
Perfectionism, procrasti-planning, over committing, holding yourself to a double standard.
All of these things can sabotage our progress by either slowing it down or making it impossible for us to achieve our goals.
Like we talk about so often on this podcast, awareness of what's causing the issue is the first step.
So take that first step by going to thetruthaboutburnout.com slash quiz to take our free quiz to discover your self-sabotage style.

Avery - 11:34
And of course, I won't leave you stuck.
Once you complete the quiz and discover your primary self-sabotage style, I'll follow up with an email giving you ideas about what to do about it so that it stops holding you back.
Go to thetruthaboutburnout.com slash quiz to get started.
That's it for now, until next week.

12 min
March 25, 2024 Can Rest Truly Transform Your Life? Unlocking the Healing Power of Rest with Elaine Mingus
Avery - 00:00
Today my guest is Elaine Mingus and she is a homeschooling mom of 7 who overcame an 8 year long battle with bulimia in her 20s along with a heroin addiction, only to have it all resurface in her 40s after the adrenaline of having babies was over.
And now she's walking through the healing journey of lightening her mental load so she can continue to have peace amidst the storms in life.
And one of the strategies that Elaine shares today is really, really powerful.
So be sure to keep listening.
Hi, I'm Avery Thatcher, a former ICU nurse, and this is not your standard stress management podcast where we just focus on those band-aid solutions like the benefits of meditation, mindfulness, and self-care.
You already know that you need some kind of recovery strategy to deal with your stressful life.
But what you may not know are all of the sneaky ways that society, our upbringing and our high achieving nature, and so many other factors contribute to our risk of burnout.

Avery - 01:01
That, my friend, is what we talk about here on this podcast because you can't do something about a situation that you're not aware of, right?
So if you're ready to get out of the pattern of burning out, feeling better, only to burn out again, it's time for us to shut the light on the truth about burnout.
All right, friends, I am so excited for Elaine to be our guest today.
She has a really interesting story, and I could definitely relate to a lot of it.
And I really just want to hear wisdom from somebody else that's also been through burnout.
So welcome, Elaine.
Thank you.

Avery - 01:37
Thank you for having me.
I'm so grateful to have you here.
It takes a lot of courage to share these stories because we're really taught to hide them.
So I just am so grateful for people like you that want to come in and share.

Elaine - 01:52
Yeah, I am a huge believer in sharing my story because that's the only way we can get over our struggles and then we can help other people get over their struggles.

Avery - 02:01
Absolutely, and when we first connected one of the things that you said really just was like all of the choirs singing and the whatever like I was just so excited because you talked about how our bodies need rest that we need to undo this lie of needing to work 24 7 in order to get the results that
we want And that is so much of what I talk about here.
So tell me a little bit about that.
Like, when did that realization really come to you?
What happened to lead up to that?

Elaine - 02:34
Well, I think that realization is constantly occurring because the lie in our culture is so strong that we can work, work and never experience burnout.
But the truth is, is that we absolutely need rest, but we constantly need to remind ourselves, OK, wait, I need rest because we're just being fed that lie all the time.
And so you constantly have to unpeel the things that the culture is telling you on a daily basis.
And so I think the first kind of Point where I really realized that rest is important is when I read an article on Arianna Huffington, who is the founder of HuffPost, and she was climbing her way very quickly to the top and especially as a female entrepreneur of a conglomerate, a media conglomerate.
It was very, I'm sure, stressful for her to make sure that she was showing up as a successful female.
And she was, think in the article, it was talking about how she was at the pinnacle of her success.
She was sitting in her penthouse apartment, looking out into New York City and then realized that she was miserable.

Elaine - 03:44
And it was then that she started looking into the Sleep Institute or the Sleep Foundation and she realized that sleep was super important and so she would take her phone at 10pm and put it on silent and put it out of her bedroom.
And really focusing on getting that rest and restoring herself so she could be ready for the next day.
And I was like, man, if somebody is that successful is over here talking about how important sleep is, I better wake up and kind of smell the coffee.
Oh, I lost audio.

Avery - 04:19
I can't hear you now.
Yes, absolutely.
I agree.
I think that's part of the problem is that we are constantly surrounded by everybody's best and not getting to see the truth behind that and I feel like all of us know that you only get to see the highlight reel on social media logically but yet in our emotional body we're looking at that and being
like oh why can't I have a perfect life like that and You don't know what's behind that curtain like you shared with Arianna Huffington.
She was miserable, even though looking at her life from the outside, everyone's like, oh, she's got it figured out.
So yeah, and I think to you, oh, go ahead.

Elaine - 05:06
I know, go ahead.
Do you want to restate that?
No, it's okay.
Go ahead and say what you think.
So what is interesting, especially as like what I do right now, which is vintage resale, is that you can take a five hour process and whittle it down into a seven second Instagram Reel or TikTok.
And that's what you're seeing.
But really the work and all the effort put into it is so much greater.

Elaine - 05:33
But yeah, you're right.
We all know it in our heads, but our hearts keep lying to us.

Avery - 05:38
Absolutely.
So tell me about a time in your life where you were you had that experience like Ariana Huffington where you kind of were like going through things and then realize that this isn't what you wanted.
What did that look like for you?

Elaine - 05:57
So there's a couple key points that happen in my life, some that were major turning points, but I definitely want to emphasize that this is literally a daily struggle that you constantly have to remind yourself to slow down and choose what is a priority and reset your priorities each and every day
and rest being on the top because it is, there are so many things that we do and that we need to get done.
Every day and the just the natural Want is to make sure they all get done all the T's are crossed and all the I's are dotted so but one of my biggest times when I really realized that I was not getting the Rest I needed was when I had spent 10 years in the blogging world in the speaking world
writing world and with working and I'm
Because I know that I'm pushing so hard you have this kind of reaction like well I have to show up for everybody else as well because then they might call me out and say stop chasing that you're tracing too hard and there's just kind of this like protective film that you put over yourself like don't
tell me not to chase because there's this other part of my life that has very little Like time that I'm able to commit to it and so if you tell me that I have to rest then that means like somehow you in your brain you say well if I have to rest then it's not going to get done and you're chasing
so hard and so I was showing up for everybody I was making sure that I was like the picture-perfect mom and my house was super clean and you know I'm able to and so I was performing at this high level of Trying to reach perfection, which is totally impossible for us to reach.

Elaine - 07:56
And after 10 years, there was just enough things that were just like things in my mind that were going off, like saying, this is not worth it.
Like I am pushing so hard and getting so little ROI, you know, like return on my investment that I am just going to pull back and I started pulling back and Then there was just like the nail in the coffin of um I was flown up to New York after four interviews for this dream job that was going to
answer all my like dreams like you know fulfill all my dreams and right before Thanksgiving I got the call that I was not going to get the job and I was crushed and it really felt like all that hard work was absolutely just null and void And so I went into hiding and luckily it was right before 2020
so it could have been no better time than 2020 to just pull back and hide from the world and rest with the rest of the world and just kind of like recalibrate what was important to me.
And I didn't even know I needed that but I'm so glad that it happened because it allowed me to kind of realign with what I wanted And totally pivot my efforts and interestingly enough my efforts that were kind of just easier, everything just became a lot easier, actually have led into the things
that I wanted to do all along beforehand.
So it's kind of a cool thing that REST actually creates better results.

Avery - 09:39
Absolutely and that's something that our high achiever will rebel against because it doesn't understand that because when you look at capitalist culture it doesn't talk about that actually being the key it talks about working harder and working nine jobs and burning yourself out and I cannot imagine
what homeschooling 12 children or seven children Is like, yeah, seven, I know I said twelve, but seven.
Still like that.
And then also continuing to work on projects that are for you.
Like that's, that's a lot.
So has it always been like, since, since you kind of pulled back and rested and got into this phase, has it always been easy?

Elaine - 10:33
Definitely not always easy.
I mean, nothing is always easy, but it definitely has a, like, what I was doing before felt like I was a hamster on a, you know, in the wheel, just spinning, just trying to throw spaghetti at the walls and see what sticks.
And especially in a financial aspect, because with seven kids and with what we were doing, it just When you're spending 20, 30, 40 hours on something, it's not making money.
You're like, that's not a business, that's a hobby.
And so when this other thing occurred, it just The ease that happened it just things came to me rather than me chasing it and so I've kind of developed this mantra of don't let don't chase the dream let the dream chase you because we were all created on purpose and for purpose to do something
amazing and you know what I heard something recently somebody said that there is no traffic in your lane when you are doing what you're called to do and created to do You don't have to look at other people and compare because you are unique and you have a unique calling and when you kind of operate
into that just like a basketball player has a sweet spot you just fall into this sweet spot and so it's not easy but it's not as hard as when you're like operating out of your sweet spot.

Avery - 11:58
Absolutely.
So can you talk about some of the struggles that happened as you were trying to operate in your lane because It's not like once we're in that lane that like nothing tries to cut us off.
There's a lot of different societal blocks and like what kind of things kind of got in your way of that?

Elaine - 12:23
So one of the things that I really am passionate about lately is the idea that as a woman, and I just had my 42nd birthday, They, that I don't think it's talked about a lot is you have like these struggles that you deal with in your teens and twenties, and then you get married and then you start
having babies.
And like, there's this kind of this weird place between 20 and 30, 35, depending on how many kids you have, that you're like, I'm in like this adrenaline of having children and being married and planning, thanksgivings and vacations.
And then as your youngest kind of starts being way more autonomous, You can fall into this okay well like now who am I like they don't need me as much the adrenaline kind of has worn off and you will kind of revert to some of those behaviors that maybe were toxic you know for whatever reason you
that you use to cope with your perfectionism or trauma that's happened and I have found myself in that in my 40s kind of Try to operate at that high level.
And like I said, I have to constantly pull myself back.
Like I have not arrived at this place of like ultimate rest, like where I've got it.

Elaine - 13:39
And so I never want, I never want to project this idea that like I have it all together and that like, I'm just really good at resting and I'm very zen.
I'm not, I'm not very zen.
I'm very intense.
Like those Instagram reels that talk about like, you know, when people say that you're too much, like I'm too much like for a lot of people.
And, um, So what I found is a kind of a resurgence of drinking too much and or eating disorder mentality because I had an eating disorder when I was a kid that was just miraculously delivered from it in my 20s like around I was 21 years old and didn't struggle with it all through my 20s and 30s and
then as I've put this like insane amount of pressure on performing I'm now the breadwinner from my family and it has kind of Bring up those coping mechanisms because that's all they are.
You're wanting control and so you take you know and then you have you're like I have control I have control and then like you're like I feel like I just need a release I need a break and whatever way you get that break whether it's drugs or alcohol or eating too much or eating too little or binging

Elaine - 14:48
and purging or You know, shopping, whatever it can be, those are all coping mechanisms because somewhere else in our lives we feel out of control.
And so I've really had to pull back the curtains and say, okay, you have to deal with this idea of perfection.
And I listened to this guy on YouTube.
He's a famous guy, but I had just found out about him, so I can't remember his name, but he talks about how often we have, we want to live in the gap.
And the gap between reality and perfection and how that gap makes us miserable.
And so he kind of recommends like every night saying three things.
That we're wins because a lot of times, especially with high perfection people or one of the high achievers, they don't stop and recognize the win.

Elaine - 15:39
And so I've been trying to put into practice, like, today I did this today.
And even if it's small, today I got out of bed and showered, you know, that is a win in and of itself.
And sometimes we just need to remind ourselves that we're doing a good job, you know?

Avery - 15:57
Yes, I love that so much.
That ties into one of the practices that we start people with right when they join the Flowstate app.
We start right away with celebrating the wins, because that's really common for people to say at the end of the day, write down three things that you're grateful for, but those are all external to you.
And it's really hard for us, especially as highly sensitive high achievers to like look inward and really celebrate who we are.
So I love that, Elaine, that is such a good way to kind of wrap up that whole thing.
So tell me, if there was like one thing which you wish this person listening right now would know, what would you tell them?

Elaine - 16:41
I think about this.
Take your time.

Avery - 16:56
If you're still drawing a blank, what was the greatest piece of advice you've ever received?

Elaine - 17:25
Okay, so I am a strong Christian and one of the things that I think speaks to me the most and that I can if I could tell someone that is dealing with overwhelm is

Elaine - 17:51
Realizing that God created the heavens and the earth in six days and on the seventh day he rested.
Even the creator of the universe knew the importance of rest and he took an entire day off to rest and look at his creation and call it good.
If we can mimic that same six days on, one day off, I mean in our culture we have five days on, two days off, But really know that, you know, even on that Saturday, you're like, I still have all the kids stuff to do or whatever, like, but really takes off.
Yeah, exactly.
But taking one day in your life just to unplug and look, you know, at whatever you've done, whether you've just mowed the yard the day before and just stand out there and say, gosh, it looks so good.
And what I did was good.
I think just that understanding that even God rested and then he took a day to look at his creation and call it good.

Elaine - 18:50
I think that if we can put that into practice, that would be life changing.

Avery - 18:57
I love that.
I am not Christian, and I absolutely still resonate with all that you just said.
So that is so perfect.
What a wonderful way to end things.
So before I let you go, I would love to hear more about what you do, because I know it's like, kind of a hard left turn from what we've been talking about today, but I would love to center that a little bit.
So tell me a little bit about you.

Elaine - 19:23
So like I said before, I had spent 10 years blogging, speaking, writing, writing for best-selling authors, doing, you know, devotionals and apps and on for focus on the family and doing, you know, really cool things.
But it really didn't bring me any financial income, which, of course, with as many kids as we have, and the struggles we were having financially was really important.
And so after kind of that place where I didn't get the job, I had already been selling furniture on this that I had found on the side of the road because me and my family had gone on a vacation that put us in $10,000 worth of debt and I was like really depressed.
And so I was like, I've got to do something.
And so I started picking up stuff on the side of the road and selling it and paid off $10,000 worth of debt within six months and then bought a pop-up camper so me and my family could take cheaper vacations.
And then paid off my daughter's braces and paid our groceries off in cash and as somebody who spent a huge portion of her life on government assistance because we just got pregnant and had so many babies so quickly, seven within 14 years, that you know it was just a whirlwind of just You know,
having not enough.

Elaine - 20:39
And so I felt so proud of what I was doing that I was able to contribute financially to my family.
And so I just threw a series of events that were just, I mean, me being at the right time, right place at the right time.
And that's what I talk about the ease of just pulling back and resting more and doing less to have more outcome out more results.
And I just poured myself into that, but really slowly.
And it just kept growing and kept growing.
And then in 2022, we opened an e-commerce website.
And June 22, my husband came home to do it full time with me.

Elaine - 21:18
And now he helps me homeschool the kids.
And by the end of this quarter, We will have reached $100,000 in sales.
So this is like the, you know, pinnacle of our, you know, that we've gotten at this point, financial security.
And it's just, it's been awesome.
And it's really through honestly walking in my purpose and just doing less and getting better results.

Avery - 21:46
That's so exciting.
So we will definitely be linking to your website and your store.
I am definitely interested in going to check that stuff out.
I don't know if you ship up to Canada, but we will figure it out.
And yeah, we'll look into all of that.
Thank you so much.
I just really appreciate your openness and your vulnerability.

Avery - 22:06
And yeah, I would love to continue to chat with you to see how we can continue to work together.

Elaine - 22:14
Yeah, and I definitely want to point out like I don't take stuff off the side of the road anymore.
I've kind of shifted my whole focus to vintage furniture, which is how I'm able to get to that place.
But it definitely started out with picking up stuff on the side of the road.
That's the reason why my handle is curb vulture because it's kind of a nod at where I started.

Avery - 22:36
Yes, which is super fun.
So tell people how they can connect with you and learn more about this.

Elaine - 22:43
So you can find me on Instagram at kerbvulture and then on kerbvulture.com if you're looking for vintage furniture and you're in the Austin Texas area we do ship internationally and nationally with you ship it is quite expensive if you're shipping big giant pieces of furniture but some people do it

Multiple speakers - 23:04
and then if you're looking for a podcast guest or a speaker you can check out elainemingus.com Wonderful, thank you so much and we'll link to all of that in the show notes as well.

Avery - 23:19
Uh, excuse me, one second please before you skip on to the next podcast.
If you struggle with getting caught in the weeds of day to day little things that you need to get done, you're going to want to try our Daily Planning One Sheet.
It's completely free and we have both a digital version and a printable PDF version.
This Daily Planning One Sheet helps you get your thoughts together, set intentions for how you want to show up, organize your tasks, determine your priorities for the day, and Give you a tiny habit challenge for the day to help you get the most out of it.
Interested?
Go to thetruthaboutburnout.com slash planner to get that free download.

25 min
March 18, 2024 Unveiling the Perils of Perfectionism: A Roadmap from Burnout to Fulfillment
Avery - 00:01
Perfectionism.
It's not just a drive for excellence, it's an all-encompassing desire for unattainable perfection that we either chase or sabotage our chances of even getting close to that ever-elusive sense of perfect.
For many highly sensitive high achievers, this quest can become a relentless pursuit that leads straight down the path of burnout.
Hi, I'm Avery Thatcher, a former ICU nurse, and this is not your standard stress management podcast where we just focus on those band-aid solutions like the benefits of meditation, mindfulness, and self-care.
You already know that you need some kind of recovery strategy to deal with your stressful life.
But what you may not know are all of the sneaky ways that society, our upbringing and our high achieving nature and so many other factors contribute to our risk of burnout.
That, my friend, is what we talk about here on this podcast because you can't do something about a situation that you're not aware of, right?
Avery - 00:59
So if you're ready to get out of the pattern of burning out, feeling better only to burn out again, it's time for us to shut the light on the truth about burnout.
One of the biggest problems with perfectionism is that it's celebrated in our culture that glorifies success and achievement.
Good enough can be seen as lazy or like you're giving up.
However, beneath this polished, perfect exterior lies a complex web of challenges, self-loathing, and consequences, one of which happens to be burnout.
There is an intricate relationship between perfectionism and burnout, so let's explore the nuances, causes, and implications.
Perfectionism, contrary to popular belief, isn't a one-size-fits-all trait.
It manifests in two distinct forms, overt and covert.
Avery - 01:54
Overt perfectionism is the type that's more visible, is characterized by high standards, a relentless drive for flawlessness, and a tendency to set unrealistic goals and sometimes achieve them.
Individuals with overt perfectionism are often outwardly critical of themselves and others, striving for external validation and approval.
Then there's covert perfectionism.
On the surface, covert perfectionism may appear less intense But its effects can be equally damaging.
It involves internal pressure, self-doubt, and a fear of failure.
Those with covert perfectionism may avoid taking risks or pursuing opportunities for fear of falling short of their own standards or external expectations.
While overt perfectionism is readily apparent, covert perfectionism can be insidious.
Avery - 02:45
Quietly undermining one's well-being from within or showing up in some more subtle ways.
Covert perfectionism is the kind of perfectionism that I do more work one-on-one with people because it's one that I know all too well myself.
It's the kind of perfectionism that leads to habits like procrasti-planning, where I'm stuck planning things out as far in advance as conceivably possible, thinking through every possible scenario and some less likely or even impossible ones.
Or sometimes even disorganization and messiness.
Because then I don't have to have the perfectly organized space if it's just a hot mess.
Now let's dig into the roots of perfectionism, because understanding why someone becomes a perfectionist is crucial to unraveling its grip.
Several factors contribute to the development of perfectionistic tendencies, including upbringing and environment.
Avery - 03:46
If you had high expectations from your parents, growing up in an environment where parents really just had those exceedingly high expectations can foster perfectionistic tendencies.
Constant pressure to excel academically, athletically, or socially could instill a belief that one must always strive for more in order to gain approval and validation.
People that experienced praise for achievement, like children who receive praise primarily for their achievements rather than their efforts or qualities, may internalize the message that success is contingent upon perfection.
This emphasis on outcomes over process can fuel a relentless drive for perfectionism.
If there is comparison to siblings or peers who excel in certain areas, this can create a competitive atmosphere where perfect is seen as the benchmark for success.
Constantly measuring oneself against others' achievements can contribute to feelings of inadequacy and the need to constantly prove oneself.
Environments that place excessive value on performance over personal growth and well-being can also fuel perfectionism.
Avery - 04:59
Whether in academic, professional, or extracurricular settings, the relentless pursuit of excellence at the expense of self-care can reinforce perfectionistic beliefs and behaviors.
Children who grew up feeling responsible for others' happiness or success may develop perfectionistic tendencies as a means of avoiding disappointment or disapproval from parents, teachers, or peers.
The fear of letting others down can drive them to strive for perfection in all aspects of their life.
And finally, environments where emotional support and validation are lacking may push individuals to seek validation through external achievements.
Without a strong support system to provide reassurance and encouragement, perfectionism can become a coping mechanism for dealing with feelings of insecurity or inadequacy.
These are just a few examples of how upbringing and environmental factors can contribute to the development of perfectionism.
It's important to recognize that perfectionism is multifaceted and can stem from a combination of genetic predispositions, external influences, and personality traits.
Avery - 06:09
There are several personality traits associated with the development or amplification of perfectionism.
While these traits can vary in intensity from person to person, they often contribute to the perfectionist mindset in different ways.
So here are some of those key personality traits.
Number one, highly sensitive and empathetic.
People that are highly sensitive and empathetic tend to be organized, diligent, and detail-oriented.
And while these qualities can be beneficial in many aspects of life, they can also contribute to perfectionism when taken to extremes.
Perfectionists with high levels of empathy may set excessively high standards for themselves and struggle to accept anything less than perfection.
Avery - 06:52
Feeling the disappointment of others so much more deeply, they also have a strong desire to people please and gain acceptance.
which can drive them to pursue perfection, overcommit themselves as a means of seeking validation and affirmation from external sources.
Another trait is overthinking.
Overthinking is characterized by tendencies towards anxiety, self-doubt, and some emotional instability.
Perfectionists that are excellent overthinkers may be particularly prone to negative self-evaluation or fear of failure.
Their heightened sensitivity to criticism and a tendency to ruminate on mistakes can exacerbate perfectionistic tendencies as well.
Perfectionists also often exhibit rigid thinking or all-or-nothing thinking patterns characterized by seeing things in a binary black and white situation and struggle with the ability to tolerate ambiguity or uncertainty.
Avery - 07:50
My hand is right up in the air on this one.
This one is a big thing for me, especially tolerating uncertainty.
This rigidity can manifest in a strict adherence to self-imposed rules or standards, making it difficult for perfectionists to adapt to changing circumstances or accept imperfections.
Being a high achiever is another personality trait that can lean into that perfectionism.
A strong orientation towards achievement and success can fuel perfectionistic tendencies.
Perfectionists may equate their self-worth with their accomplishments or to-do list and set unrealistically high goals for themselves.
Their pursuit of excellence becomes a driving force in their lives, often at the expense of their well-being.
Avery - 08:39
And then there's the fear of failure.
Perfectionists frequently harbour a deep-seated fear of failure and rejection.
This fear can be a powerful motivator, driving them to strive for that vision of perfect as a means of avoiding criticism, disappointment or disapproval from others.
And finally, the last personality trait that I see a lot in the people that I work with is low self-compassion.
Perfectionism is often accompanied by a lack of self-compassion and self-acceptance.
Perfectionists may be overly critical of themselves, holding themselves to impossibly high standards, and berating themselves for even minor mistakes or shortcomings.
It's important to note, though, that these personality traits exist on a spectrum, and not everyone who exhibits these traits will develop perfectionistic tendencies, And at the same time, not every scenario will have the same degree of influence from these different personality traits.
Avery - 09:35
Recognizing and understanding these personality traits and how they play out in different scenarios in your life can be a crucial step in addressing and overcoming perfectionism.
Like I tell my clients all the time, awareness is the first step.
We have to know what we're working with in order to reprogram the self sabotaging belief patterns.
Finally, cultural norms and societal expectations can also influence the development of perfectionistic tendencies.
In cultures that prioritize achievement and success, individuals may feel pressure to meet the unattainable standards set by their society, family, or community.
So how does this continue though?
Because if these things are happening to you as a child or environments that you grew up in, how do they perpetuate this perfectionistic nature?
Avery - 10:26
Once perfectionistic beliefs are established and reinforced over time, they can be challenging to overcome.
But despite the detrimental effects, many people find themselves trapped in this grip, this cycle of perfectionism for various reasons.
One is the fear of failure.
When you equate your mistakes with personal failure, this leads to a pervasive fear of falling short and this fear can drive you to push yourself relentlessly, unable to accept anything less than perfect.
When we're looking also for extra external validation and approval, and when we feel that need to and only know how to seek validation and approval externally, then it's really easy for us to become perfectionists because we equate our self-worth from achievements and accolades, which just really
has us seeking this validating Information from other people so this is where we need to understand how to create internal validation to be able to start loosening the grip that perfectionism has on us.
And finally for some perfectionism becomes intertwined with their identity.
Avery - 11:44
It becomes not just a behavior but a core aspect of who they are and this can make it really difficult to let go those perfectionistic tendencies because you feel like you're denying a part of yourself.
And the keyword in there is feel like you're denying a part of yourself.
There's actually a lot that we can do to help create space between that inner perfectionist and the true version of you.
So, let's talk about the perils of perfectionism.
While the quest for perfectionism may seem noble, its toll on mental health cannot be overstated.
Perfectionism is a significant risk factor for burnout, which is that state of emotional, physical, and mental exhaustion often accompanied by feelings of cynicism and reduced professional efficacy.
Perfectionists are prone to overextending themselves, constantly striving to meet unrealistic standards, and this relentless pursuit of perfection can drain their energy and leave them feeling exhausted and depleted.
Avery - 12:44
The fear of failure and judgment can lead perfectionists to withdraw from social interactions and support networks.
They may isolate themselves out of fear of being seen as imperfect, further exacerbating feelings of loneliness and alienation.
And perfectionism takes a toll on mental health, contributing to anxiety, depression, and other psychological issues.
The constant pressure to excel can absolutely erode self-esteem and rob individuals of their sense of joy and fulfillment in their life.
So, the journey to overcoming perfectionism begins with self-awareness and acceptance.
Recognizing the signs of perfectionism and its impact on wellbeing is the first step towards change.
It's essential to challenge the belief that perfectionism equals worth and to cultivate self-compassion and resilience, which is the primary focus of the Creating Calm app.
Avery - 13:38
And as a part of this journey, I invite you to take our free burnout risk assessment quiz.
By gaining insight into your own risk factors for burnout, you can take proactive steps and prioritize self-care and well-being and start to really unwrite some of those perfectionistic beliefs.
Because remember, perfection is an illusion.
And also perfection is boring and true fulfillment lies in embracing our imperfections and finding beauty in our humanity.
You can find it right at the very top of my website becomingavory.com or you can also find it in the list of free resources again on my website becomingavory.com.
As I want to leave you with this, although perfectionism may promise success, Its pursuit often leads to burnout and dissatisfaction.
By acknowledging the two faces of perfectionism, understanding its roots, and challenging its grip, we can reclaim our lives and redefine success on our own terms.
Avery - 14:44
Hey hey, do not press that skip button yet.
Yes, this is the end of the episode, but I still have something else I think you're really going to like.
I know, you're already an expert at setting goals that push you out of your comfort zone.
Let's be real, you're a high achiever after all.
But how often do you sabotage yourself on the way to achieving those goals?
Perfectionism, procrasti-planning, over-committing, holding yourself to a double standard.
All of these things can sabotage our progress by either slowing it down or making it impossible for us to achieve our goals.
Avery - 15:18
Like we talk about so often on this podcast, awareness of what's causing the issue is the first step.
So take that first step by going to thetruthaboutburnout.com slash quiz to take our free quiz to discover your self-sabotage style.
And of course, I won't leave you stuck.
Once you complete the quiz and discover your primary self-sabotage style, I'll follow up with an email giving you ideas about what to do about it so that it stops holding you back.
Go to thetruthaboutburnout.com slash quiz to get started.
That's it for now, until next week.
16 min
March 11, 2024 Reclaiming You: Navigating Identity Beyond Fatherhood with Jason McCleary
Avery - 00:00
I know and have known for as long as I can remember literally since I was a child that I did not want to be a parent and there has been no biological clock ticking there is no baby desire anything and I just know that that's not part of my journey but I do think it's really important to have those
kinds of conversations about understanding your identity and how that shifts and how you can reclaim parts of who you are After you become a parent and so today we have Jason from Epic Dad Coaching to really dive into that a little bit talking about the struggles of losing who they felt they were.
They really felt like they lost who they thought they were as a person and it's just so interesting to hear it from a different perspective because I know that I've had my own experiences of lost identity And it's just neat to hear how somebody can also feel that same loss of identity with having
children.
So without further ado, let's get into the conversation with Jason.
Hi, I'm Avery Thatcher, a former ICU nurse, and this is not your standard stress management podcast where we just focus on those band-aid solutions like the benefits of meditation, mindfulness, and self-care.
You already know that you need some kind of recovery strategy to deal with your stressful life, but what you may not know Are all of the sneaky ways that society, our upbringing and our high achieving nature and so many other factors contribute to our risk of burnout.

Avery - 01:38
That my friend is what we talk about here on this podcast because you can't do something about a situation that you're not aware of, right?
So if you're ready to get out of the pattern of burning out, feeling better only to burn out again, it's time for us to shut the light on the truth about burnout.
Welcome back.
I am so excited to speak with Jason today.
He has a really interesting story and one that I can't relate to at all because I choose to be childless and that is not Jason's story.
So I'm excited to dive into that and to talk about what that experience was like for him.
And then he's got another couple of things that he wanted to touch on as well that he thinks would be really helpful because when we hear other stories that we can relate to, we realize that we're not alone in that.

Avery - 02:28
Resistance and struggle.
So welcome, Jason.

Jason - 02:32
Thanks for having me.
I'm really excited to be here.

Avery - 02:35
So why don't you tell us a little bit about you and the journey that kind of led up to the moment that you want to speak about today.

Jason - 02:42
Yeah, certainly.
So I am first off a husband.
I've been happily married to my wife for almost 17 years now.
And we have three kids who are 11, 13 and 15 at the moment.
I always mention my family first because that's very much a focus for me.
And for reasons we'll get into later that it can also cause some issues as well.
I'm also a coach for dads who are looking to kind of rediscover their passion for life after having kids and being so focused in having or being dad for so long that they kind of lose who they are as an individual and so that's kind of what I do for That's so beautiful, so why don't you tell me a

Jason - 03:28
little bit more about
So the story of how all that came about is, you know, I worked at a corporate job for 15 plus years and it was kind of in this place where You know, I didn't really have a passion for the job.
And at this point, you know, my kids were probably around the eight, 10, 12 ages.
And I found myself really lost in, you know, that whole day-to-day grind of, I would go to work, drive for 40, 45 minutes, you know, one way in traffic, sit at my desk in a cubicle for eight to 10 hours.
Doing work, like I said, I just didn't have a passion for it.
It paid well, but there was no, no passion for it there.
And then do the 45 to 50 minute drive back in traffic.

Jason - 04:30
And by the time I got home, it was basically time for dinner, time to get the kids ready for bed and then, you know, go to bed and do it all over again.
And I really felt that I was, I was starting to lose myself as a, as a person, you know, I, I. was no longer Jason, I was Natalie's dad, I was Carter's dad, even Becky's husband is my wife.
And part of what I had passion for in life beforehand was just gone.
And I think a lot of men feel this, especially since we put so much into being a dad that becomes very much who we are as identity and we think we need to turn Everything in life around for that so you know we have to provide for our families we have to be the one to lead them and be the strong one
the stoic kind the guy who can you know take all problems on their shoulders and just carry it and not show that emotion and that pain and that you know that weight and I found myself Like I said, when my kids were probably about 8 to 10, 8, 10, 12, falling in this pretty deep depression of,
you know, is this it?
Is this all there is going to be in life?

Jason - 05:50
Have I kind of devolved from what I thought were my passions and loves?
And don't get me wrong, I love being a dad.
I absolutely love being a dad.
It's my favorite thing in the world.
It always has been, but especially when your kids get a little bit older and they no longer Really need you to be present all the time.
You start to figure out that, okay, well, when I used to be especially hovering over my children, making sure they're not hurting themselves and doing all these things, what do I do now?
What's the next step?

Jason - 06:24
You know, obviously I can spend time with my wife and that's great, but we also need to have some time alone and figure out what our path is and move towards that.
So that became kind of my focus.
And, you know, I started with my health journey because that was a big part of it as too, as I gained about 50 or 60 or plus pounds.
When my kids were born, you know, that sympathy weight for the dads out there, they'll be very familiar with that.
That became something that I could control and start to create an identity around what I wanted to be as an individual.
Then I started looking at the other parts of my life.
How do I want to show up as a husband?

Jason - 07:09
How do I want to show up as a dad?
What are the intentional things that I need to take steps towards to become that person in everyday life?
That's what I'm helping dads do now as well.

Avery - 07:23
So what you talked about is something that I can relate to in my own way is losing the identity when you have identities outside of yourself.
Yes.
So what was that moment like when you realized that your identity was no longer your own and what did you do to start figuring out who are you?

Jason - 07:43
Yeah, I think that's what it was.
It wasn't like this, um, you know, snap a finger and suddenly decide, Oh, that's what's wrong.
Right.
I haven't figured that out.
It was slowly going, you know, I used to love doing, you know, so-and-so I used to love going rock climbing, used to go going backpacking and doing these things that were very individualistic and, you know, some of that left.
And what was the passion about that, that I really enjoyed and how can I bring that into my life now?
Um.

Jason - 08:12
So I just decided that I wanted to be a lot more intentional with the life that I was living.
I wasn't, you know, at the time I felt like I was just more or less going with the flow and doing what life was bringing towards me and what I was kind of expected to do as a dad.
You know, the, the bringing the, bringing the money, bringing the, you know, the, the protection, the care, all that kind of good stuff.
But It parts of it were definitely not what I would felt needed to be in my life.
So I took a lot of time and actually started journaling.
I created a little workbook for myself of, you know, I wrote down every single, I guess, pillar of what I consider for my life.
So me as a husband, me as a father, just me as an individual, my physical health, my mental health, you know, and I started writing down more or less mission statements for each of these pillars.

Jason - 09:06
And you know for myself like I am a individual who you know considered himself to be healthy and these are the habits that I want to put in place to be to become that so I looked into all the things that I thought of you know who is a person or an ideal that has these identities that I want to
incorporate into my life and what are the habits and skills that they have that you know that I can start incorporating into my life Even in small bits, right?
If it's somebody who's a marathon runner, all right, I can't run a marathon right now, but maybe I can go for a walk every day, right?
It's just small little habits that I can start incorporating into my life to bring that into my identity and so that I can become who I want to be.

Avery - 09:53
I love that.
How easy was it to do the small steps rather than like leap off the cliff and be like, yeah.

Jason - 10:01
I think that's been the problem in the past.
I've tried to do that in the past.
Like I'm like, all right, I'm going to, I'm going to get up every day at 4 AM and I'm going to go to the gym for an hour and I'm going to go run a mile.
And then I'm going to make sure I only eat salads and whatever, and tried to do it all at once.
And I would find myself like all right you know it's a week if we're going strong and then after that week you just hit this wall and you're like boom all right reality sets in this can't all happen at the same time and quite honestly you don't tend to find the consistency um if you try to
do that so if you're starting small like I just started with like I said going for a walk 30 minutes every morning that was the starting point okay I can do that And after that I found that when I did those 30 minutes then I started to think well I should probably eat better because you know I'm
doing these healthy habits to begin with and then I'm going and eating a box of donuts so that's kind of negating all that.

Jason - 11:00
So all these things kind of stockpile on top of each other and then after a while you have all these habits that you're starting to create and that has become a part of your identity.
I do get up at five o'clock every morning and I do go for a walk every day or I run three miles or whatever but it's always those little steps that happen.
And I find it easier to incorporate some of the habits that you want on top of other habits that you already have.
I think if you're familiar with the Atomic Habits book by James Clear, it calls it habit stacking and those kinds of things that are really vital to the way that I created my program for myself to be able to reach all of the goals that I had for myself.

Avery - 11:48
I really like that you talked about that and specifically habit stacking too.
It's something that we dig into a lot in the flow state membership because really We want to have all of these changes happen at once.
That's the ideal.
It's just like flick a switch and be like, new person.
But like you said, it doesn't happen.
And that's where it's looking to identify your snowball habit.
And so if you don't live in a place where you get snow, then I say that it's to identify your Indiana Jones habit.

Avery - 12:15
So like the temple of doom when he's running away from that boulder, that's just like gaining momentum.
And so it's that little moment where.
It starts to gain momentum and the energy gets bigger and bigger as it goes and it's finding that right habit first.
So for you it sounds like it was going for those walks.

Jason - 12:34
Yes.

Avery - 12:34
And maybe journaling might have been a component of that too.

Jason - 12:37
Yeah, journaling was, I would say journaling was the catalyst for How I decided what to start with first.
Like I said, I went through the entire pillar of what I wanted to consider if I was my ideal self on how I see it in my head, regardless of any situation that I find myself in now, you know, okay, maybe I'm 60 pounds overweight, but whatever, it doesn't matter.
Maybe I'm in debt or, you know, whatever your situation is, that's just the situation that you're in.
And the idea of, all right, what in my life now do I want to make sure I keep in my life?
Obviously I want to keep my wife.
I want to keep my kids.
I want to keep that family unit intact.

Jason - 13:17
Okay.
How do I incorporate this new identity into those pieces as well?
And so, yeah, and, you know, going back to the habit stacking bit.
When the biggest hurdles I had of going over is when those times that I tried to do everything at once I would you know fail at one thing it would just be one thing like one day would fail and be like well that's it I'm done you know I'm a failure I'm terrible at this so who cares why do we even
bother and I would just you know stop doing everything for like a week and so yeah bringing those small habits were vital for sure.

Avery - 13:53
That is so relatable.
I think all of us have been in that space where like one tiny thing goes wrong and we're just like, ah, well, I'll just give up on it for now.
So you've already talked a little bit about things that didn't work for you.
What else didn't work for you?
What was something else that people often try or the people that you work with have tried before they meet you and it doesn't ever seem to work?

Jason - 14:16
Yeah I think that trying everything at once is the biggest thing that I run into for sure.
I think also not getting, especially for those who are married or you know in a partnership of some sort, not getting your partner involved is a big thing that a lot of people have problems with.
I know for me personally that was one of the things that kind of kept me from getting started even is I am a little bit of a morning person so I would want to go on walks at like 6 30 in the morning and my wife is not a morning person she tends to sleep till eight or nine in the morning and we have
two dogs that like to bark at everything in the neighborhood.
And so whenever I left to go for those walks, the dogs would go crazy.
They'd wake her up and I would feel really bad.
And so that kept me from going for a little bit until I actually sat down and had a conversation with her and was like, this is why I need to do these things.

Jason - 15:09
And this is how I think it'll benefit not just me, but our relationship in total.
And we were able to really work together to find Those things that really resonated with both of us, what are the habits that we can both enter, you know, interchange with, you know, why are we doing each, you know, really discuss what is it that we're getting out of, out of the whole situation and
how can we help each other and hold each other up.

Avery - 15:35
Speaking of the dogs.

Jason - 15:36
Yeah.

Avery - 15:37
That's all good.
It's all good.
I have cats that wander through and a dog that's sleeping beside us.
So, you know, it happens.
So yeah, what would you say to someone that wants to have this kind of conversation with their partner but is so worried about how it's going to be received?

Jason - 15:55
Yeah, I can definitely relate to that.
I think As guys especially, and this is a very big generalization I know, and I'm sure women do this too, but we tend to, especially if we've been with our partner for a long time, we tend to have this mask that we hold on, right?
And it's not even necessarily what we, or what our partner thinks of us, it's what we think our partner thinks of us.
And so, you know, breaking through that to say, you know, like me personally, I was never a runner.
I was never one who went out and exercised per se.
And so for me to say, you know, I'm going to start walking every morning and blah, blah.
And I had this little fear of.

Jason - 16:40
Oh she's going to think that I'm trying to improve myself because I want something better or I want to find someone better or whatever you know and it's completely asinine really it's not something that she actually had in her mind but it was in mine and so yeah the hardest part is just coming
together and saying this is What I think I need for myself and how, again, how it benefits the overall relationship between the two of us is the most important part, I think.
And I think that, especially with my wife, she was very supportive and was like, yeah, you need to do that.
That's awesome.
Let's go, you know, whatever I can do to support you.
That's great, let's do that.
But it can be a scary conversation to have for sure, but I am a big believer in you can do hard things and some of those things are just small conversations.

Avery - 17:33
Absolutely.
And I know that it always, it seems cheesy because it always seems to come back to communication as the secret to blissful life in a partnership, but it's really removing assumptions, I feel is the core thing.
I know that when my husband starts to Feel defensive.
I can see it right away.
And because we've had so many of these conversations, I can just be like, so I recognize that you're getting defensive.
Can we talk about what you think I'm thinking?
And it just opens things up because then he realizes that I don't actually have the, I think you're being a dumb ass thought circling around in my brain.

Avery - 18:11
He's like, oh, it's not there.
It's like, yeah.
So I think we put a lot of pressure on ourselves to not challenge the other person in our life, but Sometimes that other person isn't even worried about what you think they're worried about.

Jason - 18:27
Yeah, I think sometimes we have entire arguments with our partners without actually saying a word.
It's all in your head.
You've had that argument, you know.
In your head, you know how it's going to go and then you get home and you're like, I told you that I was going to do this and you've already finalized it before you even had that conversation.
So, uh, yeah, I think communication is the biggest part.
I think the stories that we tell ourselves that someone else is thinking, um, often trips us up.
That happens to me daily.

Avery - 18:57
Yes, assumptions based on a lack of information is one of our core ways that we sabotage ourselves.
And it's just once we know that that's one of our key sabotaging styles, it's information.
Now we know what we likely need to be addressing.
So that's awesome.
Thank you for sharing that so vulnerably.
I think that's really important.

Speaker_00 - 19:16
Thank you.
Yeah.

Avery - 19:18
So tell me, Jason, what would you recommend somebody that identifies as a father, that is struggling with their identity, not really knowing who they are anymore?
What first step do you think that they should take?

Jason - 19:33
Yeah, I think there's a lot of work into it, right?
You really have to be able to take the time to Really consider what it is you want out of life.
And a lot of guys, you know, we don't, we don't necessarily want to do that.
We want to, you know, step into video games or, or put ourselves into work or, you know, get into alcohol or whatever it is, the advice is that you're, you're kind of escaping from.
But I think it is a lot of just finding out what excites you.
And even if that's just journaling for like a week and just free forming, I'm really happy about this or whatever.
But it can take a lot of work for sure, especially if you have been feeling lost for a long time.

Jason - 20:22
And for me, what I did was look back at, okay, what are the things that I used to be really passionate about?
And what was it about them that I was really passionate about?
I used to be a backpacker and it wasn't necessarily the backpacking and those kinds of things, but it was a little bit of alone time as being outdoors.
It was moving my body during that time and being at one with nature a little bit.
And so while I live in a relatively flat Suburban area, there's not a lot of backpacking around this area.
There's things that I can incorporate into that.
I can go for walks on the parks and forest preserves or whatever and just doing those small little bits to start bringing in those identity of those passions that you used to be really happy about.

Avery - 21:09
I like that you dug into what was it really about the backpacking?
What was that?
Because then we could tap into that again.
That has been a big part of my healing too.
After my chronic illness diagnosis and disability diagnosis, there was a lot of things that I used to like to do that I'm not physically capable of doing anymore.
So it was like digging into, well, what emotion did that actually bring for me?
What else can I do now that's still going to give me that same thing in the circumstances that I'm living in right now?

Avery - 21:40
So I really like that perspective.
So I have to ask you, who is Jason when he's not being labeled as a father and a husband?

Jason - 21:50
That's an interesting thought because I do, I still hold a father and husband as one of the biggest pieces of me.
Like that is my identity.
Like anybody I speak to, my wife, my kids are such a big part of my life and a big part of who I am because of the support they give me, the, you know, the uplift.
Um, that is a passion of mine.
It's teaching it's, it's being a mentor.
It's, um, You know, being supportive, being a loving, caring, nurturing man, that's one of the passions that I love.
I enjoy that immensely.

Jason - 22:27
So I think that's a big part of it.
Outside of that, though, I'm also a podcaster, I'm a coach, I am a guy who enjoys going for a run and hopefully getting healthier slowly bit by bit every day.
I am somebody who wants to be a guide to others and that's essentially the biggest makeup of me.

Avery - 22:57
That's the perfect segue into telling people how they can connect with you.
How can they have you be your guide?

Jason - 23:04
Yeah.
Yeah.
So I, interestingly enough, I'm in this weird transition of, I'm doing one-on-one coaching, but I'm launching a membership group for dads who are looking to improve their parenting, their Marriages, their individual identities, and all the above.
So that'll be coming in the next couple weeks.
That'll be at EpictadCommunity.com.
But I'm on LinkedIn all the time.
That's where I spend most of my time.

Jason - 23:34
So I'm just Jason McCleary at Linkedin, and a little bit on IG, but I do less there than I should.
And you can also check out the podcast, Epic Dad Podcast, and I have guests on there quite often talking about these kind of things, masculinity and fatherhood and being a husband and all the great stuff in that.

Avery - 23:57
Wonderful.
We'll link to all of those things in the description and the show notes.
You can definitely go and check that out.
Thank you so much, Jason, for this.
Is there anything else that you'd like to leave the audience with before I let you go?

Jason - 24:10
Yeah, I think the biggest part of what I talk about is the idea of being intentional in whatever you do.
So, you know, think about your identity and actually intentionally create it because I think there's a lot of people who think they just are who they are and they don't understand that they have the ability to look at themselves and say, this is not who I want to be.
I want to be this other person.
What steps do I need to do in order to get there?

Avery - 24:35
Excellent way to end it.

Multiple speakers - 24:38
Thank you so much again Jason, this was a beautiful conversation.

Avery - 24:46
Uh, excuse me, one second please before you skip on to the next podcast.
If you struggle with getting caught in the weeds of day-to-day little things that you need to get done, you're going to want to try our Daily Planning One Sheet.
It's completely free and we have both a digital version and a printable PDF version.
This Daily Planning One Sheet helps you get your thoughts together, set intentions for how you want to show up, organize your tasks, determine your priorities for the day, and Give you a tiny habit challenge for the day to help you get the most out of it.
Interested?
Go to thetruthaboutburnout.com slash planner to get that free download.

26 min
March 04, 2024Attachment Styles and the Burnout Epidemic
We all have unique ways of connecting with others, and establishing boundaries (or a lack of boundaries) in relationships. These patterns or attachment styles, which are rooted in our early experiences, play a crucial role in shaping who we are and how we achieve work-life balance… or not and eventually end up burnt out.
Now, you might be wondering, what do attachment styles have to do with burnout?
The answer?
More than you realize.
Attachment Styles: The Blueprint of Connection
First things first, let's define the different attachment styles. Rooted in early childhood experiences, these styles serve as the blueprint for how we connect with others, navigate relationships, and manage emotions. There are four primary attachment styles: Secure, Anxious-Preoccupied, Dismissive-Avoidant, and Fearful-Avoidant. But with more complex trauma research being done, there’s a fifth attachment style that’s surfaced called the Disorganized attachment style. Let’s break them all down and define them:
1. Secure Attachment and Burnout: Imagine this as the gold standard. Individuals with a secure attachment style feel comfortable with both intimacy and independence. They trust their partners, communicate openly, and maintain a healthy balance in relationships. Think of it as having a secure base to explore the world from.

2. Anxious-Preoccupied Attachment: Now, this attachment style is like having a radar for potential relationship threats. Folks with an anxious-preoccupied style seek closeness and reassurance but may worry about their partner's commitment. There's a constant need for validation and a fear of rejection.
3. Dismissive-Avoidant Attachment: On the flip side, we have those with a dismissive-avoidant attachment style. Independence is key here. People with this style value self-sufficiency, might downplay the importance of relationships, and find it challenging to open up emotionally. It's a bit like keeping relationships at arm's length.

4. Fearful-Avoidant Attachment: This one's a bit of a mix between anxious and avoidant. Individuals with a fearful-avoidant style desire closeness but fear rejection. They might struggle with trust issues, feeling torn between wanting connection and fearing vulnerability. It's a delicate dance between seeking and avoiding intimacy.

5. Disorganized Attachment: This style combines elements of both anxious-preoccupied and dismissive-avoidant styles, resulting in a unique and often challenging dynamic. Individuals with a disorganized attachment style may have experienced inconsistent caregiving during their early years. Picture a mix of moments where caregivers are a source of comfort and safety, but also instances where they might be a source of fear or confusion. People with a disorganized attachment style may find themselves caught in a tug of war between the desire for closeness and the fear of vulnerability - which is a recipe for severely out of balance people pleasing.
Now, that’s all fine and great to have these attachment styles defined, but what do they have to do with burnout?
The Hidden Link: Attachment Styles and Burnout Patterns
It turns out that our attachment styles significantly influence how we perceive stress, handle pressure, and navigate the murky waters of professional and personal challenges.
1. Secure Attachment and Burnout:
Securely attached individuals often display resilience in the face of stress. Their ability to seek support, both personally and professionally, becomes a powerful buffer against burnout. Securely attached folks tend to establish healthy boundaries, communicate effectively, and approach challenges with a sense of confidence. The secure base formed in early relationships acts as a sturdy foundation, allowing them to weather the storms of life more gracefully.
2. Anxious-Preoccupied Attachment and Burnout:
On the flip side, individuals with an anxious-preoccupied attachment style may find themselves more susceptible to burnout. The constant craving for reassurance and fear of rejection can create a heightened sensitivity to stressors. This persistent need for external validation and a tendency to magnify negative events can contribute to emotional exhaustion and, eventually, burnout.
3. Dismissive-Avoidant Attachment and Burnout:
Dismissive-avoidant individuals, valuing independence and self-sufficiency, may appear resilient at first glance. However, their tendency to downplay the importance of relationships can lead to isolation, creating a breeding ground for burnout. The reluctance to seek help or share vulnerabilities may result in a lonely journey through the challenges of life and work.
4. Fearful-Avoidant Attachment and Burnout:
Fearful-avoidant individuals experience a tug of war between the desire for closeness and the fear of rejection. This internal conflict can create heightened stress responses, contributing to burnout. The struggle to balance independence and intimacy can lead to emotional exhaustion as they navigate the delicate dance between seeking connection and avoiding potential pain.
5. Disorganized Attachment and Burnout:
Having a disorganized attachment style can significantly influence your risk for burnout. The unpredictability and conflicting emotions inherent in this attachment pattern can create challenges in navigating both personal and professional relationships. Individuals with a disorganized attachment style may struggle with setting clear boundaries, oscillating between a desire for closeness and a fear of vulnerability. This internal conflict, combined with difficulty in trusting others, can contribute to heightened stress levels. The lack of a consistent and secure base in relationships may lead to feelings of isolation and difficulty seeking support during challenging times.
Regardless of your attachment style, addressing burnout involves unraveling these intricate patterns, understanding the impact of past experiences on present dynamics, and gradually building a more secure foundation for healthier connections. It's a nuanced journey toward self-discovery and resilience.
Breaking the Chains: Navigating Burnout with Attachment Awareness
Now that we've unraveled the invisible threads connecting attachment styles to burnout, let's explore how awareness can be the compass guiding us toward healthier, more resilient paths.
Self-Reflection and Awareness:
Take the time for deep self-reflection. Explore your own attachment style and how it may have influenced your approach to relationships and stress management. Understanding your unique blueprint is the first step in breaking free from patterns that contribute to burnout. If you’d like some questions to help guide this for you, please go to becomingavery.com/prompts and I’ll send a set of questions for you to journal or ponder to help you unlock the mental blocks your attachment style can cause that will inevitably lead to burnout.

Consider seeking professional support, such as therapy or counseling, to delve into your attachment style more deeply. A therapist or other qualified professional can provide valuable insights and guide you on a journey of self-discovery, helping you navigate the complexities of attachment and burnout.

Building Secure Foundations:
If your self-reflection reveals a less secure attachment style, fear not. Awareness is the first step toward change. Work on building secure foundations in your relationships – both personal and professional. Cultivate open communication, establish healthy boundaries, and seek support when needed.

Invest in activities that promote self-compassion and self-care. Building a secure base within yourself can act as a powerful antidote to burnout. Embrace the idea that seeking help is a sign of strength, not weakness.

Mindful Relationship Navigation:
For those with anxious or avoidant attachment styles, mindfulness becomes a valuable ally. Mindfulness practices can help regulate stress responses, increase emotional intelligence, and foster healthier connections.

Engage in activities that promote present-moment awareness, such as meditation, yoga, or deep-breathing exercises. Mindfulness can serve as a bridge between your attachment style and a more balanced, resilient approach to life's challenges.

So you see, understanding how your attachment style influences your burnout patterns empowers you to make intentional choices, break free from destructive cycles, and widen your window of resilience. Here's to breaking the chains, embracing healthier connections, and navigating the intricate dance of attachment and burnout with grace and resilience.
11 min

About The Truth About Burnout

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Welcome to The Truth About Burnout, where high achievers find the key to unlocking peak performance without burning out. If you're a go-getter feeling the weight of stress and burnout, join us as we explore the strategies and mindset shifts that will revolutionize your approach to productivity, focus, energy, and motivation.

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