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Avery - 00:01

Hi, I'm Avery Thatcher, a former ICU nurse, and this is not your standard stress management podcast where we just focus on those band-aid solutions like the benefits of meditation, mindfulness, and self-care.

You already know that you need some kind of recovery strategy to deal with your stressful life.

But what you may not know are all of the sneaky ways that society, our upbringing and our high achieving nature, and so many other factors contribute to our risk of burnout.

That, my friend, is what we talk about here on this podcast because you can't do something about a situation that you're not aware of, right?

So if you're ready to get out of the pattern of burning out, feeling better, only to burn out again, it's time for us to shed the light on the truth about burnout.

So welcome, Courtney, I am super excited to have you here.

We met a little while ago and I came in and did a workshop for you for your community in January.

Avery - 00:58

And I am so excited to have you talk about your story here.

So thanks for joining me.

Courtney - 01:04

Hey, my pleasure.

I like that we're doing a little like knowledge swap.

Avery - 01:09

Oh yes, always, always.

Because I am the first to admit that I do not know everything and that I am not the right person for everybody.

So I really want to make sure that we bring in a group of people.

And you and I do similar things, different angles, I feel, but yeah.

So tell me a little bit about you and when you first noticed that you were a high achiever.

Courtney - 01:33

Good question and I feel like my story as to how I'm going to answer this question, I don't think I've ever talked about it publicly before.

It'll reveal some like some like real nerdiness in my in my past.

So right now I am a body image coach and anti-diet fitness instructor.

I have my own community online LOYOBO which stands for Love Your Body and I really am passionate about Helping women but really anyone who's marginalized by the patriarchy to step out of shame, to reconnect with their body and use fitness as a way to build their confidence.

I've had a couple different lives in my own working lifetime but I've been doing this now for about, oh my goodness, about seven years and it's something that I really do love and enjoy.

Avery - 02:22

And you're very good at it.

Courtney - 02:23

Oh, thank you.

Thank you.

It's one of those perfect things that it married my joy and some of my skills.

To answer your question, though, as far as I feel like I knew really, really young that I was a high achiever and that I had a large amount of self drive and self motivation.

I remember in grade school, And this must have been young I would have said like I'm gonna say like grade three or grade four.

When you're first starting to do like projects for school and you got like the risk awards.

I remember in summer break, when we weren't in school.

Courtney - 03:05

I assigned myself projects and I would make my mother or dad take me to the library and I would research the heck out of something and then make a Bristol board just like you would in school and make them sit down and listen to my presentation.

I remember I did one on horses.

Oh my goodness.

And that was fun for me.

I enjoyed doing that.

Avery - 03:31

Courtney, I feel like I'm talking to a twin because we literally had a science lab in our basement that we like ran experiments for and like we were doing like basic trigonometry and I mean basic but when I was in like grade five because we did those like baking soda rockets we put a little baking

Multiple speakers - 03:48

soda and vinegar in and shoot them up so yeah we were calculating how high they got based on how long they took to come back down So we were basically like same nerds opposite ends of the spectrum as far as I was not the math and science I was like let me learn about horses and like fashion.

Avery - 04:03

Oh it's so good though yes I can totally relate to that.

Courtney - 04:07

Yeah and I also remember doing things like in grade seven I got together with a bunch of my friends at the time and we like started a not-for-profit like again just for fun and just as a way to spend our time and Um, ended up spending, I think a year or two just like collecting toiletries and

like calling up big corporations like Johnson and Johnson and, um, getting them to donate.

Supplies for the local women's shelter.

So I think it was just always like, I didn't ever, I still don't ever, I struggle with being still, I mean, I'm sure this is going to come out later.

I struggle with truly understanding how to rest because I love being busy.

I love being engaged and I love.

Multiple speakers - 04:50

Just have the biggest high achiever flag waving over your head, just like, yes!

Avery - 05:05

I can do anything!

Courtney - 05:06

Especially before all those, you know, I feel like for me it was really around that grade seven, grade eight time when, you know, a lot of the insecurities started to come in and a lot of the self-doubt and the negative self-talk and kind of like caring about what other people thought, but before

then I was just like, I was just loving my life and not caring about any of that and being like this is what this is what I do and not thinking twice about it and having that you know unabashed confidence in myself that like yeah I can call up a I can call up a major multinational corporation as

like a 12 year old and get them to give me free stuff of course I can why couldn't I?

Avery - 05:47

Totally, I feel like especially for most of us high achievers we kind of lose that sort of no fucks given experience and it's when you look back at it it's kind of heartbreaking that there is that loss.

So talk to me a little bit more about how your high achiever maybe sabotages you a little bit now.

Courtney - 06:11

Yes, I feel like I'm going to do a bit of an arc of even bringing back that point that you just mentioned about how we kind of lose it along the way.

I think that when you are someone like us who maybe struggles with rest, That those energies and the that effort can go into the wrong things and the wrong places.

So I definitely went through a phase in high school where I was really lost, fell in with a crowd that did a lot more partying than studying, let's say that way.

And I struggled with my self-esteem a lot.

And I really cared about what other people thought, which meant I Very much self-censored what I was interested in or what I wanted to do or the direction that I thought my life could take based on how I felt I would be seen by others.

So I think that all my energy and all that good stuff that you know was innocent in the elementary years ended up going to things that really didn't align with my values, really didn't push me forward in the ways that I hoped it would, like too much partying and Being too obsessed with boys and you

know again like caring about what other people thought and I think especially in relation to the work that I do now I spent a lot of time and energy trying to fix my body and fix what I perceived was broken with me or searching for those magic answers that would make me feel worthy and enough.

Avery - 07:50

Totally.

I don't agree with a lot of what Brene Brown says because I feel like it is a little bit of a limited view, but she does talk about how the opposite of belonging is fitting in.

Because then you're not actually showing up as you.

Multiple speakers - 08:04

And you still end up feeling isolated and lonely.

Avery - 08:07

Totally.

So that really sounds like you were searching for belonging.

Courtney - 08:12

Yes.

Avery - 08:13

In all the wrong ways.

Courtney - 08:15

Yeah.

I think that the A high achiever can really end up getting strongly linked and strongly tied to any of those voices inside that say, you know, not good enough, not worthy.

And I think for a long time, especially like through anything that required I'm going to say some sort of like evaluative performance-based criteria.

So like definitely in school when I went to like university and did my masters and then definitely as soon as it was in a job where again performance is linked with pay or linked with you know title or promotion status and then especially as an entrepreneur It's taken a lot of work and I'm still

very much in the process of it to untangle those two things and redefine how I think of success or how I think of my self-worth and have it not be so tightly Involved with my ability to be productive.

I think that that's really how it ends up harming me is like the inability to shut it off and the guilt and the shame that can come with needing human things like rest and the ability to turn my brain off and you know time to heal and recuperate and things like that.

Avery - 09:46

Totally.

And if you're listening to this right now and you're just like, oh, Courtney, just describe me, you're not alone.

No.

This is very, very common.

And it's what we've been taught.

And there's a ton of episodes, like if you look back, that talk about this, the way that we grew up with perfectionism and how that influences us, but then also living in a capitalist society and just how capitalism, the patriarchy, all of that needs to equate productivity with worth.

So it's not your fault.

Avery - 10:16

But it is your responsibility to fix.

Courtney - 10:18

Yeah, exactly.

And I think it's amazing now that we're having so much more conversation about this kind of topic.

Especially in those formative years like the high school and the university, I don't remember this ever being something that was even on my radar.

The only pathway forward was basically like if you want to be successful you have to work hard and put in the time and go and burn out and hustle was just Normal, that was just the sacrifice of the price of entry and anything other than that was really shamed and degraded and looked down on.

Avery - 11:06

Definitely.

So what kind of brought you into the burnout that you think you're experiencing right now?

Because you shared before that you are still very much in a burnout space, which I think is such a beautiful perspective to share, because it's this wave where we continue to come back into that space.

So tell us a little bit about that.

Courtney - 11:27

Yeah, I, it's multi-pronged.

Let me put it that way.

It always is.

Always is.

Right.

So I was one of those entrepreneurs.

So I had, um, a brick and mortar studio, a brick and mortar fitness studio during COVID.

Courtney - 11:43

Uh, and since I'm in Ontario and I was also at the time I was in Guelph, which was, I would say one of the more, um, Overly cautious and conservative counties in Ontario.

So we, I can't remember the exact numbers.

I knew it at one point, but we were closed a lot as a business.

So, um, And because we were only 18 months old, I was just coming out of the entrepreneurial startup phase where I was working 16 hours a day and not paying myself.

And so I was just coming into the phase where like, wow, I'm getting days off and I'm getting normal work hours and I'm starting to pay myself.

And then COVID hit and basically all of that disappeared in a moment.

And I was back to incredibly long days, like 16 hour days, seven days a week, obviously not sustainable and not a sustainable pace.

Courtney - 12:39

At the time though, both myself and all the other small business owners and all my mentors just kept saying this is temporary.

Like you, you just have to make it to the end of this.

You just have to make it till we open again or till we have a vaccine or what have you.

Obviously none of us anticipated that it was going to be, you know, three long years of on and off closures and different rules and regulations where business wasn't, um, as usual.

So I feel like in hindsight, I leaned into a non-sustainable model to get me through the COVID crisis as a business owner that I ended up not being able to step out of, at least not very quickly.

That combined with, I was also a COVID bride, so I had my wedding, it was supposed to happen in 2020, obviously did not happen, So I was juggling having a business that was being incredibly impacted by COVID, having a wedding that was being impacted by COVID, and doing all kinds of things behind the

scenes to try to stay afloat.

Courtney - 13:46

Me and my ex-husband, which I'll share that details, me and my ex-husband moved in with my parents.

And then we moved to a different city, all trying to save money and make things financially work at a time when things were really tight.

And then at the end of 2020 to my ex-husband and I actually ended up separating.

Um, so it was just like a four year crunch of a high amount of business stress, a high amount of, you know, big changes in my personal life and also going through some other big life events, like both a marriage and also a separation that just Emptied the tanks, for sure.

Avery - 14:32

Definitely.

And like when you listen to your story, you can hear mental energy drains, physical energy drains, emotional energy drains, the fulfillment energy drains.

So like all four of your batteries were being drawn to burnout.

You just were right there in that space.

Courtney - 14:51

And I think I definitely had an awareness, as I said, that what I was doing and how I was both making ends meet from a financial standpoint, but also everything that you said, like an emotional and a physical and all of it I knew was unsustainable as I was going through it.

Yet since there was that narrative of, I think that many of us, you know, pandemic aside, Definitely that recognition of like, this is a game that many of us play, right?

I'm only going to do this temporarily.

I'm only going to sacrifice myself temporarily.

And when I insert whatever arbitrary milestone or achievement or end date, Then I'll give back to myself or take time off or give myself a raise or whatever it is.

And unfortunately, you can often, like I did, both from external means and also from our own pressures, you get stuck in that temporary phase.

Avery - 15:52

Much longer.

Multiple speakers - 15:53

That isn't this temporary as you think.

Avery - 15:55

Yeah.

Oh, I love that you shared all of that because I've heard so many people say like, oh, yeah, like, I just need to kind of overwork myself until black.

So it is so common.

So, so common.

Yeah, you end up.

Courtney - 16:09

Oh, go ahead.

I was just gonna you end up you end up kind of training everything in your life and the people around you to operate.

In an unsustainable way, so it makes it, it makes changing back to something more healthy and more balanced even harder because, you know, from a work perspective, I remember literally having conversations with my mentors being like, how do I now adjust my client's expectations back down?

Like I went so above and beyond for COVID.

And I can't do that anymore.

So how do I get them to be okay with accepting less or perceived less when really like that wasn't sustainable.

So that's like that it makes it harder for yourself and the people around you to get out of that unhealthy behavioral pattern and lifestyle.

Avery - 17:02

So beautifully said, so beautifully said.

So tell us a little bit about what it feels like, like when you're in those burnout energy drains, like what does it feel like for you?

Courtney - 17:14

Yeah, great question.

Part of the big changes over the last four years as well was getting a couple new mental health diagnoses, which has meant a big pattern, or I don't want to use the word pattern again, a big theme of the last year, I would say, has been Learning how to ride the waves and learning to accept that the

waves exist and impact me.

Avery - 17:46

Oh my gosh, yes.

I have a whole episode on riding the wave for my OCD when I was going through the exposure response and prevention therapy because yeah it is ugly and it is scary but it's doable.

Courtney - 18:00

Yeah, and I think that was a big, I think for a really long time I was in denial that I was in burnout.

I blamed a lot of other things first.

And it wasn't until I really was like working with my therapist and I had to accept that it was much, it was a much easier story to tell myself because it fit with that old narrative of like, well, it's something wrong with me.

It's something that I'm, I'm not doing or should be doing.

It's something that I need to fix.

And again, that idea of like, I just need to push past it and that will fix it.

And it took.

Courtney - 18:40

Talking to someone outside of myself to help me have that perspective of like, no, like you're, you're tired.

Your body is tired.

You've drained your resources.

Pushing through is the same approach that you've been trying for the last three years.

Can we try something different to see what happens?

And I would say like that was the hardest part of just accepting that As part of this healing process, I had to be really uncomfortable, be comfortable with being really uncomfortable and accepting that what those arbitrary expectations of myself that I had of what life should look like, of what my

productivity should look like, of how I should feel, I had to accept that those just weren't the case at the moment and to focus more on what I was feeling and what I needed and what my body was asking for without that judgment and adjusting and creating new expectations for myself.

Avery - 19:51

Yeah, so I think one of the reasons why a lot of people feel the way that you did is because burnout is shared as a stress management problem.

If you just managed your stress better, you wouldn't burn out.

But it's not a stress management problem, it's an energy management problem.

And so that perspective shift is really tough.

So what works for you?

How did you start shifting that perspective to be able to say, okay, I want it to be like this, but right now it's like this?

Courtney - 20:26

I mean, I think a little bit, it was force fed to me.

Yeah, because I got to the point where, where my body like could not do what I was asking it to do.

I was, I was getting sick a lot more than I used to.

And just, again, my mental health issues were rearing their ugly head.

We're just like, even, even if I wanted to push through, I couldn't, I was, I was having moments where the physical body was, was Demanding that I take rest.

So that was part of it, was just having that forced upon me.

I think the other really important piece was doing exactly what we're doing now, which is having conversations, having conversations about other people who had experienced burnout and what they had gone through, having conversations about Priorities in life and what I wanted and breaking down a lot

Courtney - 21:26

of the walls of exploring why I had these expectations for myself.

Even something as simple as I remember on my social media talking about publicly like when I was in the thick of the burnout as it was happening before I fully realized.

I was already starting to have conversations as a millennial who is definitely nowhere near home ownership.

I remember talking about this frustration openly on my social media and I had a lot of people privately reached out and actually share that they also were renting or that their parents had helped them out or what have you and really Made me realize that those expectations that I had on myself that

were often very much based on comparing to other people and what I thought they had already achieved or what I thought, you know, they had for themselves.

And so also giving myself permission to spend time really reflecting on, okay, what are the pros and cons?

Why would I want home ownership?

Courtney - 22:41

What stress is that dream or expectation adding to the picture and the equation?

And allowing myself that opportunity to again sit in that discomfort of, okay, can I let that go?

Can I just literally take that out of my current frame of reference as to what I'm working towards?

And just let myself off the hook and start clearing away so that I can focus on what really matters.

I think that was a huge part of conversations of breaking down that wall of actually... What's the word that I want to say?

It was like pulling back the curtain for the Wizard of Oz of realizing that this vision that I had for what my life was supposed to look like wasn't actually based on a lot of fact or truth.

And I had to have conversations with other people to really find that out.

Avery - 23:45

Hmm.

So tell me how all of these reflections and realizations, how is that showing up now in your work in your business as an entrepreneur?

How does that change things?

Courtney - 23:59

I feel like it's made me a lot more slow, but in a really Like yummy kind of way.

Avery - 24:07

Oh my gosh, my word for this year is patience.

And right underneath it says slow down, you're doing fine.

Courtney - 24:14

You've been talking to my therapist, haven't you?

She keeps, I am not a patient person.

Multiple speakers - 24:21

I feel like that goes hand in hand with the high achieving.

Courtney - 24:23

I want it now and I want to know what the outcome is.

So my word has definitely been patience.

And every time she sees me getting uncomfortable, she's like, this is the work and I'm like, but I hate it.

Avery - 24:33

I know, I know.

This is terrible.

Isn't it awful when they, your therapist like says the thing and you're just like, damn, I needed to hear that, but I hate it.

Courtney - 24:41

Yeah and it's like you're so right and I hate you but I also need you and this is great.

Yeah and what that looks like from like a like real time like I'm going to use the word administrative like decision making is, I'll give an example, like an hour ago I was looking at my calendar and I had it as a goal for myself to do a free masterclass in one of my Facebook groups on April 23rd

and I've been procrastinating on this task and there was this ickiness in my chest that was like it was feeling like the overwhelming and those thoughts were coming up oh I just got to push through I just got to make it work and I've learned to kind of sit with those and be like but why do I have to

do that?

And just even asking a simple question out of my brain, I was like, what else could, how, how could I create a little bit more time and space and not listen to that voice to push through?

And I actually spent just 15 minutes looking at my calendar and realizing, oh my gosh, it'll work so much better the week after.

I'm just going to shift it and I'm just going to let myself off the hook and be okay with that.

Courtney - 25:51

And just getting used to having that kind of conversation of rather than when I feel that ick, when I feel that overwhelm, when I feel that stress, rather than the knee-jerk reaction being, oh, I just got to push through, shove it down, get it done.

It's allowing myself to be curious and be honest with myself about whether or not that actually needs to happen.

Avery - 26:15

Or if you just want it to happen.

Courtney - 26:16

Yeah, or if it's part of that, again, just like, if you actually question yourself, like you do with me, like, why was my expectation that it had to happen on April 23rd?

Like, there wasn't any.

Like, if I really dig, it was just like, well, because it just feels like it has to.

Yeah.

And these, like, just arbitrary, like, you just create these structures and these rigid rules and You just got to like give a moment and kind of kick the tires a little bit and be like, oh, I don't actually have to be this hard on myself.

Avery - 26:50

Yes.

Yeah.

So what do next steps look like for you?

Because you're still in your recovery phase.

So what's on the horizon?

Courtney - 27:00

I feel like the other word of 2024 has been stability, of really seeking out stability.

So that's where I feel like my decisions are taking me is trying to find ways, both professionally and personally, that I can create certainty and predictability and allow myself to have that foundation that I feel like I'm sure for many of us like COVID kind of took that away for a long time

created this you know that unprecedented chaos so it's bringing I felt like for so long there was so much out of my control so it's the focus is really on okay what can I control and what variables can I adjust And that's mostly really focusing on my schedule, really focusing on saying no to more

things, saying yes to the things that Check both columns of both, and this is actually, it's hard for me to actually say, I think that's why I'm stumbling on my words a little bit, that check both boxes.

It's really easy for me to seek out those things that check the box of personal fulfillment, or I'll say like professional goals.

And it's really easy for me to sacrifice financial stability.

And it's really easy for me, one of the ways that I think contributed to my own burnout was saying yes to a lot of things that didn't necessarily bring me closer to wealth or pay me well or pay me fairly or pay me at all.

Courtney - 28:49

So that's something that I'm also putting high on the list of really valuing paying myself and creating that financial stability so that I don't necessarily have to work as hard even as I still currently am.

A list of keywords relevant to topics that may occur during the meeting.

And stepping out of that, I feel like I've lived a lot of my life in the reactive mindset of feeling like so much.

My focus was so much on, as we talked about, like what other people were doing, what other people were thinking, what was happening in the world around me.

And using that as a marker to make my decisions and set my priorities.

And I feel like I've, I'm working really hard to flip that and say, Nope, the only things that I'm really judging and the criteria that are using are like, how does this make me feel both mentally and physically and spiritually and emotionally and financially, um, and letting those be the barometers

for how I determine whether I say yes or no to something, which has been a really big shift.

Courtney - 30:12

I highly recommend.

Avery - 30:14

Yes.

And it's easier said than done, of course, but it is one of those things that when you work towards it and you start to see the benefits of it, it gets exciting.

And you're like, yeah, OK, I want to do this more.

Courtney - 30:27

Yeah, and I feel like it has that amazing ripple effect of also when you show yourself compassion and when you are making decisions from that place of self-love and self-trust, it also really cultivates a new sense of compassion For others around you and a new sense of respect for their boundaries

and even curiosity and awareness about their boundaries.

And so I feel like even to come back to that idea of belonging versus fitting in, I feel like the more work that I do on really learning how to trust myself and show up as authentically me as possible, both for all its beauty and all its messy chaos, Because there's been times where in order to get

the space and the time I need, I've had to admit things to people in my life that were terrifying.

Like I'm tired or I'm not doing okay.

I need, you know, an extension or I need this to be a different day or I need to stay home.

That opens up this new way of you interacting with people that allows you to be a safe space for them to end up doing more of the same on their end, of feeling safe being their authentic self, of being safe communicating their boundaries and their needs to you.

Courtney - 31:48

So I feel like it's also really improved my relationships.

Avery - 31:53

Yeah, definitely.

Oh, I couldn't have asked for a better way to kind of bring it all together and wrap it up.

So thank you so much, Courtney, for all that you shared, your vulnerability and your openness and just really for giving us the raw version of what burnout is looking like for you right now.

It's just so powerful.

So thank you so much.

Courtney - 32:15

Thank you, I think as I said having conversations has been such an important part of my recovery and so I hope even if one person listening as you said feels not so alone or feels heard or feels seen or feels hope that there is you know a way out it's always worth it in my books.

Avery - 32:34

Wonderful, so tell people how they can learn a little bit more about you or connect with you.

Courtney - 32:39

Yeah, I'm, I'm big on the Instagram.

So if you're on there, find me at Loyobofit, that's L O Y O B O F I T. Um, or head to loyobofit.com slash become dash, uh, dash VIP.

And that's where you can find my newsletter and I'm sending out all kinds of musings from my own mind as I go through this journey and also other resources to help you embrace some tools that can help with, you know, burnout recovery, like joyful movement and mindful eating and social connection.

Avery - 33:10

Beautiful.

We're going to link to all of those things in the show notes.

Thank you so much again, Courtney.

This was so wonderful.

Courtney - 33:17

Thank you, Avery.

Thanks for having me.

I'll come back anytime.

Avery - 33:20

Deal, deal.

Hold please.

I know that these end-of-podcast blurbs are generally really repetitive and only say, make sure you're subscribed, but this isn't like that.

Today, I have a little habit challenge for you.

Before you sit down to do your next work block, I encourage you to take five slow deep breaths for five seconds on the inhale and five seconds on the exhale.

Doing this helps us turn off our stress switch, which then regains access to our higher level thinking brain, which is something that we talk about in the free course that's included in the Productivity Partner app, which helps you design your pre-work ritual.

And inside that productivity partner app, each day there's a mini habit challenge where I take 60 seconds to explain something like this that you can do in your day to become even more effective and impactful as a high achiever.

Avery - 34:17

You can try it for one week for free by going to thetruthaboutburnout.com.

Give nothing to lose and everything to gain.

Go give it a try.

Avery - 00:00

Effective communication is like the glue that holds our personal and professional worlds together.

In both realms, it serves as a cornerstone of understanding, collaboration, and connection.

So just think about it.

In our personal lives, clear and empathetic communication fosters deeper relationships with loved ones, it allows us to express our needs, feelings, and boundaries honestly, while also creating a safe space for others to do the same.

But without it, misunderstandings can brew, leading to unnecessary conflicts and emotional strain.

In the professional sphere, effective communication is the linchpin of success.

Whether it's conveying ideas in meetings, giving and receiving feedback, or collaborating with colleagues, Clear communication is essential.

Avery - 00:44

It ensures tasks are completed effectively, efficiently and goals are aligned and teams are cohesive.

Moreover, strong communication skills often are a prerequisite for leadership positions as effective leaders must inspire, motivate and guide their teams through clear and compelling communication.

Ultimately, in both personal and professional realms, effective communication isn't just about transmitting information.

It's about building trust, fostering empathy, and nurturing meaningful conversations.

It's the key to navigating the complexities of human interactions with grace and authenticity.

But it doesn't always come naturally, does it?

Hi, I'm Avery Thatcher, a former ICU nurse, and this is not your standard stress management podcast where we just focus on those band-aid solutions like the benefits of meditation, mindfulness, and self-care.

Avery - 01:36

You already know that you need some kind of recovery strategy to deal with your stressful life.

But what you may not know are all of the sneaky ways that society, our upbringing and our high achieving nature, and so many other factors contribute to our risk of burnout.

That, my friend, is what we talk about here on this podcast because you can't do something about a situation that you're not aware of, right?

So if you're ready to get out of the pattern of burning out, feeling better, only to burn out again, it's time for us to shut the light on the truth about burnout.

Alright, so first of all let's start talking about the four styles of communication and their link to the stress response.

Each of us have a unique way of communicating shaped by our individual style, past experiences, and beliefs.

Plus, we can communicate differently in different scenarios depending on what's happening.

Avery - 02:30

When it comes to communication, there are four main types.

Assertive, Aggressive, Passive, and Passive-Aggressive.

First up we have assertive communication.

Picture someone confidently expressing their thoughts and needs while also respecting the rights of others.

This style of communication often doesn't activate the stress response at all, or if it does, it keeps your inner objective observer in the driver's seat rather than going into survival mode.

Then there's Aggressive Communication.

This is where someone's communication style leans towards the domination or control of the conversation, often disregarding the feelings of others.

Avery - 03:08

It's like the fight response, cranked up to 11, leading to confrontations and conflicts.

On the flip side, passive communication is more about avoiding conflict altogether.

It's like hitting the flight and fawn button in the stress response, where individuals suppress their needs and emotions to keep the peace.

And lastly, we have passive-aggressive communication.

This style combines elements of both passive and aggressive behavior, often expressing hostility indirectly.

It's akin to the freeze response combined with the flight response.

Where emotions are bottled up and released in subtle and sometimes undermining ways.

Avery - 03:47

It's where we want to fight back, but we're not comfortable with the potential consequences, so we freeze.

So whether we're assertive, aggressive, passive, or passive-aggressive in our communication, each style is closely linked to that natural stress response, the fight-flight-freezer, even FON, which involves seeking approval or avoiding conflict.

And so understanding these connections between the stress response and our communication styles can help us navigate interactions with greater awareness and empathy.

Because if we want to know when to use each communication style, we have to know what our default is first.

Understanding our communication patterns in different situations, especially the stressful or triggering ones, is key.

It's like knowing your go-to moves on the social dance floor, when to step forward, when to step back, and when to find your rhythm in between.

In our day-to-day lives, there is always space for assertive or balanced passive communication.

Avery - 04:45

Sometimes it's cool to take a step back and let others lead, but not all the time, but sometimes.

Sometimes it's our turn to take the lead and maybe even stand up for ourselves, which is where assertive communication comes in.

It's about expressing ourselves confidently while still respecting others and being aware of how to deliver our message in the most strategic way, understanding how our delivery might trigger the other person's stress response and nervous system.

Really, assertive communication is all about navigating difficult situations, but without the drama.

And it's really important to steer clear of the aggressive and passive aggressive styles.

There is never a case where aggressive makes sense and definitely no situation where passive aggressive communication is helpful.

I will happily, respectfully debate this with you for hours, so if you disagree and think that there is space for aggressive or passive-aggressive communication, let me know on Instagram at BecomingAvery and we can talk.

Avery - 05:44

Recognizing our default communication modes in different scenarios and knowing when to switch to the assertive style helps us navigate conversation smoothly, keeping the communication flow calm Objective, respectful, and this often requires assertive communication, which is a skill that everyone can

learn.

And like most skills, there is actually a list of easy steps to follow that start strengthening your ability to be assertive.

All right, so this is my five-step framework to assertive communication.

Assertive communication really is like a well-crafted recipe for productive dialogue ensuring that our voices are heard while fostering mutual understanding and respect.

So let's talk about this framework for mastering this art of assertive communication.

Number one, You have to identify your triggers.

Avery - 06:36

Before diving into the conversation, take a moment to reflect on what might trigger you.

Whether it's certain words, behaviors, or past experiences, understanding your own triggers allows you to approach the conversation with mindfulness and composure.

Recognizing others' triggers is just as important as knowing your own though, so that's why it's step number two.

Because when we know what their triggers might be when we put ourselves in their shoes and consider their perspective, we're empathizing with the potential triggers and you can approach the conversation with a greater sensitivity and empathy, which allows them to not have their stress response

activated, which then in turn allows you to be both present in that conversation with neither of you being defensive.

Number three, you need to clarify your outcome.

And so instead of going into the conversation with a rigid agenda, focus on the outcome that you're seeking.

Avery - 07:28

This is not necessarily a my way or the highway kind of thing.

Are you aiming for a shared understanding?

Mutual education?

Are you into collaborative problem solving?

Clarify the desired outcome that sets the tone for a constructive dialogue where both parties feel heard and respected.

That is the true goal of Assertive Communication.

Sometimes, yes, you do have to get your way, but it's really important that the other parties feel heard and respected in this conversation, because then it's not just a dictatorship, it's a collaboration, even if it has to be your way.

Avery - 08:03

Number four, prepare your approach.

How do you plan to start the conversation?

Because this sets the tone for the entire interaction.

Plan your opening carefully, aiming for clarity, respect, and empathy, Whether it's expressing appreciation, stating your intentions, or framing the conversation as a collaborative effort, a thoughtful approach lays the groundwork for that productive communication.

Again, making sure that neither of you trigger and get defensive.

And lastly, five, managing your stress.

Before initiating a conversation, take steps to lower your own stress levels.

Avery - 08:38

Whether it's deep breathing, practicing mindfulness, or engaging in calming activities, Reducing stress ensures that you enter the dialogue with a clear mind and an open heart, ready to engage in assertive and effective communication.

Because if you think about it, if you're busy putting out this fire, then you get an email, then you get some phones, you get other notifications, and then you've got this person knocking on your door because there's an issue, and then you try and leap into the conversation?

You're already like really ramped up at that point so we need to calm you down so you can embrace that conversation and enter that conversation with calm so you can clarify your objective, prepare your approach, and acknowledge both the triggers for them and for you.

And so by following these five steps we can navigate conversations with confidence and authenticity, fostering meaningful connections and mutual respect in our interactions.

This is a very important skill, not just for leaders, but also for staff across the board.

And so because I really think that a lot of this seems very abstract until we can get into a concrete example, I just want to give you a quick little rundown of what that assertive communication framework could look like in action.

So I've already acknowledged my own triggers here and I know what's going to maybe work for them or work against them because I understand that they probably In the past, I've seen it, but they are more likely to take this conversation personally and get defensive.

Avery - 10:01

So I want to acknowledge that and be able to work with that before I start the conversation.

So an example again could look like, hey Avery, I noticed that you're arriving a bit late to work pretty consistently, And I know that you have a lot of other things going on in your life and that work is a very far drive for you, but I also know that you're really passionate about your job.

And I would like to brainstorm some ideas together of how we can work to get you to work here on time each day.

Are you ready to discuss that right now?

And so really by having this we're going through all five steps of that framework making sure that everything is laid out and it's very clear but it also acknowledges that this person might start to say like hey I got a lot going on hey you know like I work is a long way for me it's a big drive and

I can't control traffic.

But there's still things that you can work on with them around those things.

Avery - 10:50

So acknowledging their potential obstacles and then also acknowledging that they're passionate about their job goes a long way in delivering the conversation in the most strategic way.

And really, mastering assertive communication is not just about expressing ourselves.

Again, it's really about fostering that understanding, respect, and collaboration in our interactions.

By identifying our triggers, empathizing with others, clarifying our outcomes, preparing our approach, managing our stress, we can navigate conversations with this confidence and authenticity.

And this approach, this framework that I've outlined for you, not only ensures that our voices are heard, but it also creates meaningful connections and mutual respect.

It allows us to use assertive communication as a powerful tool for building stronger relationships and fostering positive outcomes in both our personal and professional lives.

If you found this helpful, go ahead and share it with a friend or check out this episode's blog article on my website thetruthaboutburnout.com So you can see that framework outlined one step at a time.

Avery - 11:58

One more thing, if you need help with this skill or if someone needs to come in for your organization to help all of the organization learn this skill, my 90-minute interactive workshop session might just be exactly what you're looking for.

Hold it right there.

Don't skip to the next podcast you're going to listen to just yet because I have something else I think you're really going to want.

Did you know that we have an app?

The productivity partner app has everything you need to not only up-level your high achieving habits with meditation, Mindfulness, yoga, reflection prompts, digital self-care packages, and all of those stress management strategies.

But it also helps you organize your day, set intentions, track data to improve your systems, and help you finally achieve that ever so elusive work-life balance.

Go to thetruthaboutburnout.com for more information and start your free week trial today.

Avery - 00:01

Hi, I'm Avery Thatcher, a former ICU nurse, and this is not your standard stress management podcast where we just focus on those band-aid solutions like the benefits of meditation, mindfulness, and self-care.

You already know that you need some kind of recovery strategy to deal with your stressful life.

But what you may not know are all of the sneaky ways that society, our upbringing and our high achieving nature and so many other factors contribute to our risk of burnout.

That, my friend, is what we talk about here on this podcast because you can't do something about a situation that you're not aware of, right?

So if you're ready to get out of the pattern of burning out, feeling better, only to burn out again, it's time for us to shed the light on the truth about burnout.

Alright friends, I am very excited to hear from Joan today and for her to share her burnout story with us because she comes from a really unique background.

And I think it's something that we all kind of know is hard on some level, but we don't truly understand how hard it is to be in this industry.

Avery - 01:08

So I'm really excited to learn a little bit more about that.

So welcome, Joan.

Joan - 01:12

Thank you so much for having me today.

Avery - 01:16

Yeah, I'm very excited to hear about this.

So why don't you tell us a little bit about you and what you do, how that really makes, like how it's in alignment with your high achiever.

Joan - 01:27

Okay.

Currently, I am a restaurant, independent restaurant coach.

I help them set up systems and really figure out how to run their restaurant the way they always dreamed it would be.

And I help them build strong teams.

I have, I emphasize teamwork a lot in what I do because you cannot run a restaurant without teamwork.

I have been in restaurants and hospitality my entire life.

I worked every industry, I mean, every department in a restaurant.

Joan - 02:09

I was a host.

I was a busser.

I waited tables, trained, opened new restaurants, did all that stuff.

I, Owned my own restaurant and during the big recession in 2008, we shut down and moved to the Midwest where I have been managing in hotels.

I earned a degree.

During that time when I moved to the Midwest as well and now I just found I just I have a very big heart when it comes to independent restaurant owners since I have been there myself.

I know how much hard work it is and I just want to do everything I can to help.

Avery - 02:55

So that's what I'm doing now.

I love it.

So I feel like burnout is just rampant in the restaurateur space because it's sure you're growing your business and like any other business owner you know it's so important to you it's we call it like our baby we're really dedicated to it but with a restaurant it's different.

Can you explain to me how different it is?

Joan - 03:23

Well, there's a multitude of reasons why it's different.

One of the biggest reasons why it's different than other businesses is that it's immediate stress.

You have to answer a complaint immediately right now on the spot, fix it, turn over that bad experience, right?

You have, sure, you had all these reservations that you could handle at one time, but now 20 people just showed up at the door and they want to be seated too.

So there's this immediate stress.

So it's not like where some businesses, you're stressed out about the paperwork and then you take it home and then you worry about it.

Not that we don't worry about it, believe me, when you get home, you relive everything.

Joan - 04:15

But it's just this immediate stuff that tends to build up.

And then with restaurants, it's all about teamwork.

So you have to have a strong team in place.

And when you don't, so you've got a lot of, well, A bunch of vagabonds.

It's kind of how I describe restaurant people.

We're all a little bit different.

Most of the people that work in restaurants, they learn differently than others.

Joan - 04:50

They work with their hands.

They're all about that immediate stress and getting through that moment and moment to moment living.

This is the kind of people that work in the restaurant industry.

It's exciting and scary all at the same time.

You know, make, you know, having to feed 50 people, having to get all that food out all at the same time, you know, it's just it's this immediate stress.

So it's a different kind of people that work in the restaurant industry.

And since they're vagabonds, they're not used to being stuck on a schedule.

Joan - 05:27

So they just nowadays, especially, oh, you know, I'm not going to be there today.

So You end up dealing with having to fill in a lot.

And when you're a restaurant owner or manager, you end up filling a lot of shoes just because the industry is it's, it's a low margin industry.

You don't make loads of dough on it.

You've got to really love what you're doing.

And so you have to keep your margins low, which means not huge staffs.

So you end up filling in.

Joan - 06:06

A lot if you don't have a good strong team.

Avery - 06:12

And it sounds really like the perfect recipe for burnout because you have this baseline level of stress and pressure that you're putting on yourself plus all the little fires that come in all the time every day.

So do you think that kind of showed up for you as a high achiever moving into this industry?

Joan - 06:31

Um, yes, so I mean, like I said, I've been in the industry most of my life.

And when I owned my own place, I would go in early.

I found that I needed nobody else to be there so that I could get my paperwork done and get ready for the day.

So I would go in early sometimes, you know, sometimes early, we, we opened for lunch.

So sometimes I would get in about seven and then the first cook would show up around 10, but I would be able to get all my paperwork done and ready for the day and drawers counted or whatever.

And then make sure that the crew members showed up and then and then get through service and maybe have time to eat and then do the paperwork from that shift and then move into the next shift.

And then close through the day and then you're the last person out so when I first was doing it was just this adrenaline rush and it was something that I got excited about and when I could get this stuff done it felt really good and you know getting through it and There really is nothing like the

Joan - 07:44

high you get when you have a full dining room and you are walking through the dining room and making sure everything's running and everything's going great.

And when it is a perfect service, I mean, it is the best high ever.

So, you know, you just it's that stuff feeds you and helps you stay with it.

Which is very cool and very great, but after years of it or less, it starts to wear on you.

And restaurant owners, as it's the same with any business owner, we are afraid to let go of our baby because that is our baby.

That's our baby.

And we don't trust that someone else Can do as well with it as we can and that is the biggest problem.

Joan - 08:43

It wouldn't be as bad if it was a 9 to 5 thing, but it's not a 9 to 5 thing and restaurants never are a 9 to 5 thing.

So yeah, so we end up, you know, in serious trouble.

So I got through owning my restaurant and then we ended up shutting it down.

When we moved after the recession, we moved to the Midwest, I said, I'm never going to work in a restaurant again.

That's it.

But I just, I love it so much.

I love the industry.

Joan - 09:17

I love meeting new people.

I love talking to the guests and you know, you kind of, you end up having a relationship with these people that you never would have known if you didn't have a restaurant, but, but you build a relationship with them when they.

I love what you do and continue to come back.

And that is just awesome.

And then when you can build a crew that just fits in so well and you feel like a family, it's just a great industry.

And then it's also a very stressful industry.

Multiple speakers - 09:56

So COVID was horrible for all of us.

Avery - 10:02

Absolutely.

And so you can feel like you've touched on some of the key things there that it's so fulfilling.

When it's working.

And so those kinds of things push us forward that fulfillment energy can make it really hard for us to see our physical burnout, our mental burnout, our emotional burnout.

And then we also have that fear of like, I logically know that I should be delegating a little bit more or I need to be Putting more responsibility with the right people, but my body is saying I don't think so, I can't let that go.

So it's kind of those two things that I feel are some of the things that lead to that burnout experience.

So when you were in the thick of this, you had some really interesting ways that your mental and physical burnout showed up.

Avery - 10:48

Can you share about those?

Joan - 10:52

So when it really hit me was COVID.

As I'm sure everyone experienced different amounts of stress.

So I was managing a restaurant, I actually was managing the restaurant and a retail, like a little gourmet market, they were connected.

So I was doing duty in two places, but I had managers, but the burnout One of the managers quit of the restaurant.

So I ended up being the restaurant manager, um, during COVID.

So we, I'm in a, in a vacation area.

And our county did not shut down restaurants.

Joan - 11:40

They restricted how close the seats could be.

And we had a big patio.

So we were able to take people outside.

Everybody wants to sit outside in the summer anyway.

So, um, we were, we stayed open whether we had the crew or not.

um, Navigating that was very difficult.

So I was filling in.

Joan - 12:07

I was a hostess.

I was a server.

I was a bartender.

I was, I would have to jump on the line and help with desserts.

And, you know, I mean, I was in every position and I was washing dishes and realized that my thumbs would not bend.

First, it was just one thumb that wouldn't bend.

And it was just very bizarre.

Joan - 12:36

My one thumb wouldn't bend and I couldn't, I would stare at it and it just wouldn't bend.

And then I started researching it and found there's something called trigger finger, trigger finger, trigger thumb.

I think it normally is the index finger, but for me it was my thumb.

And I went to the doctor Um, and it was funny because she goes, so you can't bend it.

And I'm like, I mean, it's the weirdest thing when you can't, you're like, you know, you don't even consider having to focus on moving a finger, but so I'm staring at my thumb trying to move it and I couldn't move it.

And so she goes, she goes like this.

Well, there you go.

Joan - 13:29

And I go, okay.

Now I can't get it up like I had to do this to move it up.

It was crazy.

So she did give me a shot of a steroid in my thumb.

Because I guess there's a tendon when there's a trigger finger, there's a tendon that they can shoot a steroid in and sometimes it works.

Now the nurse that I talked to when I called to make my appointment said, oh yeah, it usually doesn't work.

You're going to have to have surgery.

Joan - 14:01

And I'm like, I think I'm going to do the shot, you know, see if it works.

And it helped a little bit, but then my other thumb also ended up But clearly I can move them now.

I never had to have surgery.

My entire body ached.

I was in so much pain.

My whole body was in pain.

And I also developed a trim where my head shakes sometimes.

Joan - 14:32

And I don't really know when that's going to happen.

It just kind of does it.

And I don't even know it's happening sometimes.

So all of these things, Started going on while I was dealing with all this COVID and running the restaurant and keeping it open through the horrible experience after COVID, which was trying to find employees.

I mean, it was so difficult, especially in the restaurant industry to get employees after COVID.

Avery - 15:11

Just people who didn't want to come back.

Joan - 15:14

And the government was subsidizing people, so they would make more money not working than if they came back to work, so they didn't come to work.

Avery - 15:27

Yeah, that was really common in Canada as well.

The job shortage, even though there was lots of people before COVID.

Where did everybody go?

Right?

Yeah.

Exactly.

And so yeah, I really think it's just so interesting how burnout showed up for you.

Avery - 15:47

When I do talks on this, especially when I go into corporations and talk about burnout, and I share some of the more obscure physical symptoms like locked joints, numbness and tingling, those kinds of feelings, people are like, really?

That's burnout?

You're like, Burnout is really a nervous system issue.

It's an energy management issue.

It's a not really, can you handle enough stress?

You have to look at it from a bigger picture.

So I think it's so helpful to hear some of those wacky signs because somebody might be like, I don't know, I feel fine, but I just can't bend my thumb.

Avery - 16:24

And then they'll hear your story and be like, Oh, wait, maybe it's burnout.

Joan - 16:30

Absolutely.

I mean, the thumb thing was so bizarre to me, but my entire body hurts.

And then when my thumbs wouldn't bend, it was just bizarre.

Avery - 16:40

I was just so mad.

Multiple speakers - 16:41

I can only imagine.

Avery - 16:42

Yeah.

So you obviously recognized that things were not okay and that you wanted to do something different.

So what did you start doing?

What changed to kind of bring you out of that burnout space?

Joan - 16:56

Well, the So even after they gave me the shot, you know, it continued for a while.

And the first thing I did was I actually stopped working for that company, but other than that, there just wasn't support from my bosses.

So here I was supporting everyone else and they weren't supporting me.

Avery - 17:21

So I left that job.

Joan - 17:24

But I went to a neurologist about the tremor and the neurologist said you know stress is one of the reasons why it would present like this, that tremor.

And I just, I, I made a decision actually, probably before I went to her, but I made the decision that my health needed to be the number one focus in my life.

I have 20 year old kids.

They're in their early twenties.

I want to be here for them.

And I want to be here when they have kids.

I want to be part of their lives.

Joan - 18:13

I, Don't need to be incapacitated because I allowed myself to overdo it, which I have always done my whole life.

I take on everybody else's issues.

I'm a doer.

I find the answer.

I make it happen.

I some, you know, you want to do this.

Well, let me figure out how we can get that done.

Joan - 18:37

And I take on 100% of the responsibility of Getting you what you need and helping you achieve your goals, which, well, you know, that's just not a good way to look.

I should take on every the entire world's problems.

So I had to make health my number one focus.

So when she told me it was stress that helped cause that, I started meditating and journaling daily.

Exercising, so I walk 20 to 30 minutes a day every day.

Now I take yoga classes a couple times a week.

I'm watching what I'm eating.

Joan - 19:26

I mean, I just really, really had to make my health the most important thing in my life.

I mean, I can't run a business if I'm not healthy.

So if I'm worried I'm going to lose business, that's stupid because if I'm not healthy, I'm not going to be able to keep business.

So, I mean, it was, it was, it seems like such common sense, but when you're just the person who's constantly going, go, you know.

Avery - 20:00

Yeah, so that's gonna be my question to you.

For the person that's listening to this right now that's saying, yes, Joan, logically I know that I should be making my health a priority, what would you tell them?

What would you say to that person that's just like, if I know I should?

Joan - 20:16

Guess what?

The world continues to revolve every single day.

Whether you're showing up where you're supposed to, where you think you're supposed to show up or not, That's the answer.

That's one of the biggest things.

There were a lot of scary things that happened from COVID, but one of the biggest things that came out of COVID is you need to trust that you're doing your job so well that the people around you can run your place without you.

Right?

So that's the real, that's sign of a great manager, right?

Joan - 21:02

The great manager can take some time off because their team can take the ball and run with Absolutely.

Avery - 21:13

And so that is easier said than done.

So why don't you tell us a little bit more about how they can learn about you and what you do and where they can connect with you?

Because if they're hearing you and being like, yeah, I'm not a manager, but I need to be like I need to be a better manager for my team.

So how could they reach out to you?

Joan - 21:29

Okay, so you can find me on yourrestaurantmaven.com.

I, I have a blog and I also have a podcast called You Can Do It Too.

But I created a program called Solving Your Restaurant Labor Problems and Saving Your Sanity.

And I it I give people tools and tips.

So if you're a restaurateur, an independent restaurateur, and you need help with finding labor, which seems to be the world's problem right now, but I give you some tools and tips to interview right, helping them hire right first time and saving some time that way.

I share some secrets to creating an environment where people want to work and I help Independent restauranteurs build a strong team so that they can step away and they can take care of themselves.

So there is a program that you can get through the website and that's called solving your restaurant labor problems and saving your sanity.

Joan - 22:37

It's under programs on my website.

So that's how you find me.

Avery - 22:41

Sounds great, so we're going to link to that in the show notes as well.

So is there anything, one little last bit of advice you'd like to give someone that thinks that they might be burnt out listening to this right now?

Joan - 22:51

Yeah, take a deep breath, take a deep breath and know that you have it in you to get through this, but the first thing you have to do is take care of yourself.

Avery - 23:05

Really and truly.

Beautifully said, beautifully said.

Well, thank you so much, Joan.

It was a pleasure hearing your story and for you to share your wisdom.

I'm just so grateful for your vulnerability.

So thank you.

Thank you.

Avery - 23:17

I hope it helps.

Hey, do not press that skip button yet.

Yes, this is the end of the episode, but I still have something else I think you're really going to like.

I know you're already an expert at setting goals that push you out of your comfort zone.

Let's be real.

You're a high achiever after all.

But how often do you sabotage yourself on the way to achieving those goals?

Avery - 23:43

Perfectionism, procrasti-planning, over committing, holding yourself to a double standard.

All of these things can sabotage our progress by either slowing it down or making it impossible for us to achieve our goals.

Like we talk about so often on this podcast, awareness of what's causing the issue is the first step.

So take that first step by going to thetruthaboutburnout.com slash quiz to take our free quiz to discover your self-sabotage style.

And of course, I won't leave you stuck.

Once you complete the quiz and discover your primary self-sabotage style, I'll follow up with an email giving you ideas about what to do about it so that it stops holding you back.

Go to thetruthaboutburnout.com slash quiz to get started.

Avery - 24:28

That's it for now, until next week.

In our fast-paced world, modern-day burnout has become an alarming epidemic. According to recent studies, approximately 67% of employees report feeling burnt out at work, a figure that has steadily risen over the past decade. 

This begs the question: how did we arrive at this point of chronic exhaustion and overwhelm? 

The answer lies partially in the transformative impact of the Industrial Revolution on work dynamics. 

The Industrial Revolution, which unfolded between the 18th and 19th centuries, fundamentally altered the landscape of labor. It introduced mass production, assembly lines, and standardized working hours, revolutionizing productivity. The emphasis on efficiency and output during this era laid the groundwork for our current work culture, characterized by relentless multitasking and perpetual busyness. The transition from artisanal craftsmanship to industrialized production heralded not only economic progress but also a shift in societal values towards relentless productivity—a shift that continues to shape our perception of work and the concept of 'priorities' in the modern era.

The term 'priority' historically emerged from the Latin word "prioritas," meaning precedence or superiority. Originally, 'priority' referred to the state or condition of being prior or coming before others in time, order, or importance. In its early usage, 'priority' was singular in nature, implying a singular focus on what was deemed most important or urgent. This singular emphasis was reflective of a simpler, more linear approach to decision-making and task management.

The Industrial Revolution marked a significant shift from agrarian economies to industrialized societies, characterized by mechanization, mass production, and urbanization. During this time, efficiency and output were prioritized, aiming to maximize productivity and economic growth. This emphasis on efficiency necessitated the allocation of resources and attention to tasks that yielded the highest returns in terms of output and profit.

The goal of maximizing output laid the groundwork for a paradigm shift in work culture—a shift that continues to influence how we perceive and manage 'priorities' in contemporary settings.

During (and just after) the Industrial Revolution, the notion of 'priority' underwent a significant evolution, transitioning from a singular focus to the management of 'priorities'—a shift that paralleled the changing landscape of work and productivity. The shift to 'priorities' reflected the increasing complexity and demands of industrialized societies. As economies shifted towards mass production and mechanization, individuals were faced with a growing array of tasks and responsibilities.

Industrialization brought about increased demands on workers to juggle multiple tasks simultaneously. Tasks were standardized and segmented, requiring workers to adapt to new forms of labor organization and time management. This shift in focus from a singular 'priority' to 'priorities' exemplified the growing need for multitasking and adaptability in response to industrial demands.

Also, the rise of urbanization and the expansion of industries further intensified the need to manage multiple priorities. This paradigm shift not only transformed work practices but also contributed to the emergence of multitasking as a fundamental skill required to thrive in industrialized economies.

The shift from a singular focus on 'priority' to managing multiple 'priorities' in the wake of industrialization has had profound implications for mental well-being, contributing to the rise of stress-related issues and burnout in modern society. The evolution towards managing 'priorities' introduced a new level of complexity and pressure in the workplace.

The proliferation of tasks and responsibilities inherent in multitasking has significantly increased stress levels among individuals. The need to balance multiple priorities simultaneously can lead to heightened feelings of overwhelm, anxiety, and mental fatigue. This constant juggling act can erode concentration, diminish job satisfaction, and ultimately impact overall mental health.

Also, the increased workload and demands associated with managing multiple priorities can take a toll on psychological well-being. The pressure to perform under tight deadlines and the expectation of continuous productivity can lead to chronic stress and burnout. Burnout, characterized by emotional exhaustion, cynicism, and a reduced sense of accomplishment, has become a prevalent consequence of the modern work environment shaped by industrialization. Not to mention the impact this has had on our personal lives as well.

Recognizing the psychological toll of multitasking and excessive workload is crucial in addressing the root causes of stress-related issues and burnout in contemporary workplaces.

As we continue to move forward in our modern age characterized by rapid technological advancements, the complexities of managing priorities and multitasking have been further exacerbated by the pervasive influence of digital technology. Smartphones are everywhere, along with smart watches that constantly keep us up to date with email, social media, and digital communication tools. This has created a constant stream of notifications and distractions, pulling us to multitask and fragment our attention across various platforms and tasks simultaneously. This continuous partial attention, driven by these demands of digital connectivity, not only challenges our cognitive capacities but also contributes to increased stress and a sense of overwhelm.

Then when we consider that  societal norms that glorify busyness and productivity have reinforced the culture that perpetuates burnout. The value placed on being constantly busy and productive has fostered a relentless work ethic that often overlooks the importance of rest and rejuvenation. This culture of busyness perpetuates a cycle of overcommitment and exhaustion, leading to heightened levels of stress and burnout among individuals striving to meet societal expectations.

As a result, the combination of change since the industrial revolution and the evolving digital age complexities and societal norms has created a time of mass overwhelm. Individuals feel compelled to constantly juggle multiple priorities and maintain a facade of constant productivity. Addressing these modern repercussions requires a reevaluation of societal values and a concerted effort to promote work-life balance, energy restoration, and sustainable approaches to managing priorities in our modern era.

In our exploration of how the Industrial Revolution shaped our current concept of 'priorities' and contributed to the phenomenon of burnout, it becomes evident that we are now grappling with the repercussions of this historical transformation. The evolution from a singular 'priority' to managing multiple 'priorities' has significantly impacted our mental well-being and work culture, particularly in the age of digital overwhelm.

Now, we find ourselves caught in a cycle where the glorification of constant productivity overshadows the importance of holistic well-being. As a result, stress-related issues and burnout have become pervasive in our workplaces, affecting individuals across various professions.

To address these challenges, it is imperative that we reevaluate our societal values and embrace a more balanced approach to work and life. Let us prioritize mindfulness, work-life balance, and sustainable practices in managing our 'priorities.' As individuals and organizations, we must advocate for policies and practices that promote mental health and well-being. By fostering a culture that values rest, rejuvenation, and meaningful engagement, we can navigate the complexities of modern work environments more effectively and sustainably. Together, let us strive towards a future where productivity is balanced with purpose and where well-being is prioritized alongside performance.

Avery - 00:01

Hi, I'm Avery Thatcher, a former ICU nurse, and this is not your standard stress management podcast where we just focus on those band-aid solutions like the benefits of meditation, mindfulness, and self-care.

You already know that you need some kind of recovery strategy to deal with your stressful life.

But what you may not know are all of the sneaky ways that society, our upbringing and our high achieving nature, and so many other factors contribute to our risk of burnout.

That, my friend, is what we talk about here on this podcast because you can't do something about a situation that you're not aware of, right?

So if you're ready to get out of the pattern of burning out, feeling better, only to burn out again, it's time for us to shed the light on the truth about burnout.

All right, friends, we've got somebody else that's brave and coming on here to talk about their burnout stories.

So welcome, Laura.

Avery - 00:55

I'm so happy to have you.

Laura - 00:56

Thank you for having me, Avery, and happy to be here.

Avery - 01:02

So most people, when they come on here, they do identify as being a high achiever.

And it sounds like you maybe noticed this a little bit later, or did you notice right away that you were a high achiever?

Laura - 01:15

I didn't really recognize That I was a high achiever until well into my adult life.

I always focused on doing things as best as I could and I had what I thought at the time was a really good work ethic But I didn't perceive it as being a high achiever.

Just that's just how I was wired.

That's just how it was.

And it really wasn't until my mid forties actually that I started recognizing, okay, yeah, I've accomplished these things in my life, but at what cost?

And it was that kind of epiphany that happened for me.

Avery - 01:59

Yeah, so do you feel like sharing what some of those sort of red flags were, the things that you noticed that sort of made you wonder at what cost?

Because we often talk about how hindsight's a jerk, so can you shine some light on those red flags for someone?

Laura - 02:14

Yeah, absolutely.

Just kind of looking back, work always came first and when my son was very young I felt terrible because I had a job where I had to travel quite often and I would have so much guilt but it didn't change things because I still had to do the job and I still had to travel and I'll never forget when he

was eight years old we took him to Disney World for his birthday and I was still working on vacation.

At the time we lived in New Jersey so we drove down to Florida And for the stretches where I was not driving, I was sitting in the back seat working.

And this is before cell phones were very popular, but I remember distinctly standing in the big golf ball feature amusement in Epcot on a payphone working.

And that was ridiculous.

It was my son's birthday.

Laura - 03:22

And I thought it was just like, that's just what I was doing.

You know, I was I was the boss of the thing that I was working on at the time and I just kept working and it was crazy.

Avery - 03:34

You know, I think a lot of people can relate to that because it's so easy in the moment just to keep going.

Laura - 03:42

It really is.

It really is.

And it's just, it's so not healthy.

It's so not healthy.

But the biggest event for me where things changed was In December 2010, my husband and I, we originally met in Phoenix and we were living in Seattle until October 2010. And we moved back to Phoenix because my mother had gotten very sick and she was in Phoenix.

So we went down and we moved back to help take care of her.

So Ultimately what happened was my mother needed open heart surgery.

Laura - 04:28

She ended up having a quadruple bypass.

So it was pretty significant.

And again, same mentality, different job.

I'm in the waiting room while my mother's having the serious surgery, still working.

Just the theme carried through.

Excuse me.

And then in December, December 5th, Specifically 2010 my mother was back in the hospital again because she was getting lots of complications after her surgery and at this point now my husband and I moved back we're living in Phoenix full-time and we were out one Sunday afternoon running errands and

Laura - 05:12

we had just purchased a new bedroom set and I decided I wanted the matching nightstands so we went and we picked up the nightstands And right after that, I was going to go see my mother at the hospital and my husband was kind of getting visitation burnout.

So he asked if it was okay if he stayed home.

So I was like, okay, that's fine.

We're sitting at a traffic light, waiting like a left hand turn and we're huge hockey fans.

So the last thing I remember is my husband going, is there any hockey on us?

We have NHL center ice, there's always hockey on.

And the next thing, this is December 5th, next thing I know it's right before New Year's Eve and I'm waking up in a hospital.

Laura - 06:00

So ultimately, yeah, ultimately what happened was while we were sitting at this traffic light, a woman under the influence of PCP crashed into the back of our car.

And I mentioned the nightstands earlier specifically because when she hit us, Those nightstands became missiles.

So when the nightstands launched, the one behind my husband was upright and I was driving.

The one behind me was lying down and they plowed into the back of us.

The woman pushed her car through the intersection.

We barely missed three other cars and the car exploded.

So needless to say, we had some pretty significant injuries and, I was on the side where the gas tank was so I had some pretty significant burns and I was in a medically induced coma for three weeks.

Laura - 06:58

Hence the gap in what I remember.

Anyway, obviously we're here, we recovered, we're doing very well, but what hit me was during the recovery process Um, it just, even in the hospital, I was still checking my voicemail and then it finally hit me.

I was like, this is no pun intended on that one.

It occurred to me, what am I doing?

It's like you are in the hospital.

You were in an accident where you nearly died.

Why are you checking your voicemail?

Laura - 07:33

Um, it started to occur to me.

That I need to start reevaluating my work ethic that I thought was this great work ethic.

And that's when I really started reflecting back over my career, thinking to myself, this is pretty crazy.

Think about the things that, you know, the traveling while your son was young, the working in Disney world, the working while in the waiting room while your mother's having serious surgery, the, Hours that you're putting in and taking away from your family and just the stress, it was impacting my

own health as well.

But it took this near-death experience for me to have this realization that I needed to stop, I needed to make this change.

So that was the beginning of my journey toward shifting my mindset.

Avery - 08:26

That is a super powerful story and it's literally like your foundation was shook like you said you didn't have a near life or near death experience so what has changed since then like what steps did you take because it's all well and good for us to logically say like hey I need to make a shift

but to get our body and our emotions on board that's another thing so what did you do that kind of brought those two things together?

Laura - 08:53

You know it was still very don't say very, but it was still a long process for me to get from that moment to where I am today.

So I literally could not work for a while because I was recovering from this, this serious accident.

And ultimately what happened was my mother ended up passing away the following May and we moved back to Seattle in June, shortly after that, And I still had the same job this whole time.

Fortunately, I was working someplace where I could transfer between offices, but I remember my first day back physically in the Seattle office, my boss went, glad you're back.

And a project that had been left when the accident happened in December, no one had picked up on.

And he now wanted me to complete this project in a month's time.

When it should have been worked on all along and it needed that six months just to get going.

Laura - 10:00

And I was so stunned.

I was like, wait a minute.

You know everything that just happened to me in the past six months.

And that's all you can say is glad you're back.

I need you to have this project done next month.

And that's when it really started hitting me that things are not right.

This is a toxic environment and I need to not be here.

Laura - 10:25

So shortly after that incident, still took me another couple of months, I finally said, you know what?

I can't do this anymore.

So I left the position.

I quit that job.

And then I went out and I freelanced for a little while.

Ironically, that same company closed my client for about a year, but It was that kind of that year of growth is what I'll call it.

Just this year of transition where my husband and I just essentially, we never went to counseling or any therapy or anything for accident to deal with the emotional side of it.

Laura - 11:03

But we spent that year just kind of helping each other work through the process and really seriously evaluate what it was that we want in our lives.

So that's when the journey seriously started.

After that year, I got another job at a different, similar job, but entirely different work culture.

And I was very clear in the interview, work-life balance is very important to me.

And this is a company where they encouraged you to take vacations.

Oh, that was the other thing I forgot to mention.

With the place where I was working when the accident occurred, I never took time off.

Laura - 11:45

And when the accident occurred I had so much PTO accumulated that I didn't have any decline in my paycheck.

I had short-term disability and after that I just took PTO and then I had enough PTO left over that I could still take more PTO to move back to Seattle.

That was ridiculous.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It's just to, to never take time off and just completely burn yourself out like that.

It's just, that's yeah.

Laura - 12:25

I had some very warped priorities at that point in my life.

So anyway, then I started working at this other place and it was just a much healthier environment and a great place for me to take the time to figure out what I really, really wanted in my life and, and Evaluate things and ultimately that's what led to where I am today, where I was in the legal

marketing space for a long time.

That's where I worked those last few jobs.

And then I just did a complete shift, culture shift even, in my career and I became a health and wellness coach.

So that's how I am where I am today.

Avery - 13:09

There you are.

And I love that you highlighted those two key components.

Clarity, number one, that makes you know what you want, not what society, your upbringing, whatever is told you should want.

And then number two, boundaries, and just setting those clearly and with compassion, but saying like, this is the line.

Only I get to decide if that line gets crossed.

So those two things are super powerful.

So tell me a little bit about you now.

Avery - 13:38

So you've mentioned that you're a health coach.

So tell us a little bit about that.

Laura - 13:43

Yeah, I've been doing it now for about four years actually this month and I love it.

I absolutely love it.

This started again when I was still working in the legal space and Lawyers are known, the legal field is known to have high rates of alcoholism, drug addiction, suicide, a lot of very, very unhealthy, because it can be a very unhealthy environment.

And it's not just lawyers, it's also the staff that work for the lawyers.

And My last firm things had improved but there was nothing, I mean we had doughnut day every once a month, we had pizza day, there were Countless in-office happy hours.

There was always alcohol available, things like that.

And that went with both of the firms that I worked with.

Laura - 14:47

But what happens is you start eating those things and all that bad temptation is around coupled with the stress that comes with the demands of the things that you need to do.

And I became a very, very unhealthy person.

I had put on a lot of weight, high blood pressure, high cholesterol.

And I just mentioned earlier that my mother At heart disease, so that's clearly not a good thing for me.

And I met a woman at a party and she told me she was a health coach.

And I was so fascinated with this.

Then I started working with her and within six months, I think I lost like 20 pounds and more importantly, I felt incredible.

Laura - 15:32

I felt absolutely amazing.

And I wanted, I felt like I found like this secret potion or something like that.

Like I opened the genie out of the bottle and I wanted to share it with as many people as I could.

So I started researching what would be involved to become a health coach.

And I've never looked back.

I started part-time when I was still working and then eventually this is all I do.

And I absolutely love it.

Laura - 16:02

There's nothing more satisfying, Then when you help a client have the same epiphany that I had, when they quote unquote get it and they recognize how incredible they feel.

And I have a client who I just finished with and he mentioned several times, he goes, I like to see myself in pictures now.

And that's just to help someone reach that level is the most rewarding thing I've ever done.

So it's pretty incredible.

Avery - 16:36

You can hear the passion in your voice, Laura.

Like you can tell that this is your purpose.

This is what you've meant to do.

So tell us, how can people learn a little bit more about you and the work that you do?

Where can they find you?

Laura - 16:48

Uh, they can find me, my company's called Leaf Wellness Coaching and I'm at leaf, L E A F wellness coaching.com or they can email info at leaf wellness coaching.com or I'm on LinkedIn, Facebook, Instagram, any of those as well.

And also what's incredibly exciting for our practice right now is we have just become a CDC approved provider for diabetes prevention education.

And I'm very, very excited about this.

So this is a new offering that we're starting and we'll be doing it in person and online.

So people have the options of what works best for them.

And my goal is to Ultimately, I want to offer this to more senior populations and low-income populations as well.

So I'm very excited about presenting this to whomever I can.

Avery - 17:50

Because you can't see the video because you're listening to this right now.

You can't see how excited I am.

That is so amazing, Laura.

Congrats.

Laura - 17:58

Thank you.

Yeah.

I'm pretty excited about it.

Yeah.

So it's, Such a neat and I live in Washington state now and what surprised me as I was going through this process is how few providers are actually available in the state.

And the closest city where I'm based is in Tacoma and I know One of only two providers in the entire city and that's kind of crazy to me.

So I'm very excited that I am able to now help people because it's a pretty, it's pretty significant.

Laura - 18:37

I don't know what the rates are in Canada, but in the United States, one in three adult Americans have prediabetes and of those people, most of them don't know that they have it.

And if they can catch it early enough, they can prevent it from turning into full-on diabetes.

So it's a really exciting thing to be able to do.

Avery - 19:04

Absolutely and again you can hear it in your voice just how excited you are about it.

So if any of that sounds like it could be interesting for you go check Laura's stuff out we're going to link to all of it in the show notes.

Yeah so thank you so much Laura for coming here and sharing your story so bravely and so openly I really appreciate it.

Laura - 19:24

Thank you, thank you very much I was really happy to be here I enjoyed speaking with you.

Avery - 19:30

Hey hey, do not press that skip button yet.

Yes, this is the end of the episode, but I still have something else I think you're really gonna like.

I know, you're already an expert at setting goals that push you out of your comfort zone.

Let's be real, you're a high achiever after all.

But how often do you sabotage yourself on the way to achieving those goals?

Perfectionism, procrasti-planning, over-committing, holding yourself to a double standard.

All of these things can sabotage our progress by either slowing it down or making it impossible for us to achieve our goals.

Avery - 20:03

Like we talk about so often on this podcast, awareness of what's causing the issue is the first step.

So take that first step by going to thetruthaboutburnout.com slash quiz to take our free quiz to discover your self-sabotage style.

And of course, I won't leave you stuck.

Once you complete the quiz and discover your primary self-sabotage style, I'll follow up with an email giving you ideas about what to do about it so that it stops holding you back.

Go to thetruthaboutburnout.com slash quiz to get started.

That's it for now, until next week.

It’s 6:45 am, Christmas morning 2018. I’m finishing up my 12 hour night shift at an ICU I had been working at for about a year. The charge nurse came around to get a final report for how my patient was doing and to get any info that would be helpful for the day-shift team to know. 

Before I could even start talking she said “Wow, you don’t look well. Go home and get some sleep. I’ll mark you down as sick for your next few shifts. I hope you feel better.” 

The next hour was a blur of me giving report to the day-nurse coming on shift, me changing out of my scrubs and back into street clothes, somehow walking to the train and getting home to say Merry Christmas to my husband of three months before crawling into bed for what I thought would be my usual 5 hour sleep after a night shift.

But I slept for 20 hours. 

Then I slept for 20 hours the day after that. And the day after that.

I went to the walk-in clinic down the street to get tested for what I thought was a flare up of mononucleosis, but I was sorely mistaken.

The clinic doctor walked into the room and said “How long has that lump been there on your neck?”

I said “what now?”

Fast forward a few months of me feeling like absolute trash, unable to work due to crippling fatigue, always feeling like I had the flu, nausea, inability to tolerate nearly any kind of food, dizziness, headaches, and the most peculiar feeling that I now know to be brain fog. I had met with multiple specialists, had a bunch of different tests and turns out I had a 4.5 cm lump on my thyroid. 

I called it Bob.

Things like thyroid masses are a lot less scary when you give it name. 

On the day of my surgery to serve Bob his eviction notice (aka to get my thyroid mass cut out) I remember the surgery being delayed. I was starting to get worried about my partner because he’ll be the first to admit that he gets a little hangry sometimes. So I was telling him to please go and get something to eat - but he wanted to stay with me. 

The anesthesiologist came out to talk with me and it was wild to hear the questions from this side of the hospital bed. Usually I’m the one standing in scrubs holding the paperwork and answering any questions the patient might have after the doctor left.

But not this time.

As I walked into the operating room it felt uncomfortably familiar, yet harrowing to know that the bed in the center of the room was for me. The oxygen mask applied for pre-ventilation to make my intubation safe. The midazolam and propofol going into my IV and then … nothing.

I hear the alarm bells going on a vital signs monitor beside me and I hear someone say “take a deep breath, hon.” I struggle to open my eyes and realize that she’s talking to me. Waking up from anesthetic is awful for me. I felt like I was on a boat in the high seas, with anchors tied to my eyelids. I couldn’t keep them open. 

My partner comes back into the recovery room and looks white as a sheet, but I didn’t know why. Not yet. 

I knew the drill. I had to get out of bed and walk to the bathroom before they’d let me go home.

And I so desperately wanted to go home. It was so noisy in the recovery room. So busy. I just wanted to be somewhere quiet where I could close my eyes and make the world stop moving.

I slowly made my way over there, went pee, and was walking up to the sink to wash my hands when I saw it.

The thing that had made my partner go white.

The 4 inch incision horizontally across my neck. A little bloody. Lots of betadine and iodine to clean it. And not a stitch in sight - this surgeon was highly skilled with their internal, dissolvable stitches. 

My hope that all of my symptoms that came on literally overnight would go away with Bob. 

But as I healed from the surgery and the incision turned into a scar - nothing changed. I am grateful that Bob was gone. But it hurt that he didn’t take these other symptoms with him.

Another six months went by with more tests, more doctors, a scary migraine that presented as a stroke, and I was finally given a diagnosis.

Myalgic Encephalomyelitis.

It hit me so hard. I went through all of the stages of grief, denial, bargaining, anger, it was ugly.

I tried so many different treatments, went through so many different programs, and nothing worked. Nothing got rid of the fatigue, dizziness, aches, flu feeling, brain fog.

I couldn’t work as an ICU nurse. I could barely keep up with the tasks for my simple stress management business. 

I could barely move for more than three hours a day without crashing for the next couple of days.

I didn’t know who I was anymore.

I didn’t know what I was capable of doing anymore.

I didn’t know what my life and the life of my new husband was going to look like anymore.

I didn’t feel like I was a valuable human anymore.

But it was in this dark space that I started to find my Self. My true capital ‘s’ Self.

Like so many high achievers, I had equated my worth as a human with what I could accomplish. I did this without even realizing it until I was diagnosed and became aware of my permanent disability. My identity was tied up in: my career, how others perceived me, how many people I could help, my ability to make other people happy, or how quickly I could learn and master something new. 

For a while, it felt like I couldn’t do any of those things any more. So what’s the point? If I wasn’t able to contribute as a valuable member of society, why was I still around?

I felt like a burden - something I still struggle with on occasion.

But then I started to do the work. I started to redefine who I was and what I was capable of. 

I chose a new name - Avery - and let Heather and the life she had planned go. I grieved her, but found a way to move forward.

I wasn’t going to let this illness win. It wasn’t going to define me.

But it did have to become a part of who I am.

So, like I said before, things like this are less daunting when you name them, so I call her Emmy. M.E. Myalgic Encephalomyelitis? Get it?

Emmy and I have come to an understanding over the years, and she’s taught me a lot of things.

One of which is the emotional destruction that follows when your identity is tied up in your work and you can no longer do what you felt you were once called to do.

This.

This is what I want to talk about today. 

Looking back, because hindsight’s a jerk, I can now see all the red flag warning signs of burnout that I missed. But my epic burnout experience is your gain because I’ve learned the main identities and personality traits that lead to burnout and my friend, I had all of them.

Another hindsight as a jerk moment is looking back and seeing that the majority of these traits were in the sabotaging side of things, rather than serving me. Shoot.

So I give these traits to you here to help you also maybe see some of those red flag warning signs before burnout hits you as hard as it hit me.

When I tell you that I identify with this whole list, I mean every single word of it. If you’re going through this list too and feeling like you’re checking off all the boxes - this is your sign that you need to be extra careful to prevent burnout from knocking at your door.

Feeling a little called out?

Me too.

Like I do with all of my guests here on the Truth About Burnout, I always ask them what turned the corner for them? What helped them get out of burnout?

For me?

It was a couple things:

You see, the truth about burnout is that you don’t often see it coming until it hits you.

And I’m on a mission to change that. 

With that in mind, I’d like to mention that I do have a quick 12 question quiz that will help you determine your risk of burnout. Interested? Go to becomingavery.com/burnout to take it and get ideas for what to do next to help you prevent or recover from burnout.

Awareness is the first step. 

Kicking burnout’s ass is the next.

Avery - 00:01

Hi, I'm Avery Thatcher, a former ICU nurse, and this is not your standard stress management podcast where we just focus on those band-aid solutions like the benefits of meditation, mindfulness, and self-care.

You already know that you need some kind of recovery strategy to deal with your stressful life.

But what you may not know are all of the sneaky ways that society, our upbringing and our high achieving nature, and so many other factors contribute to our risk of burnout.

That, my friend, is what we talk about here on this podcast because you can't do something about a situation that you're not aware of, right?

So if you're ready to get out of the pattern of burning out, feeling better, only to burn out again, it's time for us to shed the light on the truth about burnout.

All right, so today we have Lindsay with us, which I'm really excited about because we have something in common.

We live relatively close to each other in the same city, which is kind of cool, right?

Avery - 01:02

Especially in this internet world where I could be talking to somebody in New Zealand and who knows?

So yeah, it's really cool that you're close to home.

So tell us a little bit about you.

Lindsay - 01:13

Yeah, so I am the founder of High Voltage Leadership.

I am a leadership and executive coach as well as being a people strategy expert and I work a lot with female entrepreneurs and small business owners helping them build, grow and then really lead exceptionally well Teams in their business and so combines both of my incredible passions and skill sets

around coaching leaders to be really impactful and authentic and also to grow workplace cultures where people can perform at their very best and feel like they belong.

Avery - 01:56

Which sounds amazing.

And it also sounds like you're waving the high achiever flag over there.

Lindsay - 02:02

Yeah, for sure.

Avery - 02:03

So tell me, when did you first realize you were a high achiever?

Lindsay - 02:08

Yeah, I think, you know, it's something that I've recognized in myself from pretty early on.

I was always that kid that wanted the gold star on the chart.

I was always that kid that wanted to get really great marks in school.

I always was the leader of every team, every group.

I always wanted things to be perfect and would get really frustrated when they weren't like that.

So it's something that's, you know, come, I would tell you probably from the time I was in grade school.

Absolutely.

Avery - 02:57

And I think a lot of the people listening and like you listening right now, you might be able to relate to that.

It's one of the things we talk about a lot on this is that hindsight is a jerk and sometimes you can look back and be like, oh, it started back then.

I wish I knew that I could start to work with it rather than have it drive the bus all the time.

Yeah.

Yeah.

How did you feel like your high achiever drove the bus when you moved into adulthood?

Lindsay - 03:24

Yeah, I think for me as a grown-up, you know, there have been, what my high achiever does in particular is just drives me to work harder and harder and harder.

Generally, 95% of the time that has absolutely paid off.

I can work my way out of just about every situation.

I think one of the most important and impactful places where my high achiever did me a really significant disservice was in my first marriage.

So I got married and had a baby very early in my 20s.

And I worked and worked and worked at a marriage that was never going to work.

My first husband was an alcoholic.

Lindsay - 04:07

I was just never going to be able to fix that.

But because my high achiever had always enabled me to just work harder and get the payoff, I completely overexerted myself in that relationship and it took a lot and for me to attend Al-Anon meetings, you know, to really come to grips with the fact that I couldn't own that and I couldn't fix that.

So that was, you know, that was probably the first and most, one of the most impactful experiences in my early adult years.

I mean at 21, you know, you're technically an adult but But are you really?

Yeah, it doesn't feel like it at the time, does it?

I don't really think so.

And so, you know, it just, that was one of the first experiences where I recognized, like, I couldn't, I couldn't hustle my way out of that.

Avery - 04:56

Yeah, that's totally fair.

And so from that experience, did it change how you approach different things as a high achiever?

Or was the lesson still not fully solidified yet?

Lindsay - 05:09

Yeah.

Yeah, no, no, because at 21, you know, your gray matter isn't completely fully formed, all the connections aren't there yet, so no, the short answer is I did not learn my lesson.

You know, I got divorced, you know, so I got married and had a baby at 21 and by 23 I was divorced and living as a single mother and I really deeply desired to finish my university degree, you know, getting married and having a baby.

I was working full time.

I was a single mom with a very small child.

I was taking three university courses and I was commuting an hour each way to work.

So no, the short answer is no, I tried to hustle my way out of that situation as well.

Lindsay - 05:56

And of course, being a high achiever, I wanted to have exceptional marks.

Like I wasn't just going to go and finish my degree, I was going to go and it was going to be, you know, like it was going to be a 3.5 or a 4.0, 80%, I was going to get an A. Um, or it wasn't good enough.

And what I did was hustled myself straight into my first experience of burnout and mono.

I got mono and I was completely, not only was I exhausted, like my body was just drained, right?

Absolutely.

Avery - 06:25

Mono is a very good way to make you slow down.

Lindsay - 06:30

Yeah, cause you're just sleeping 18 hours a day for about six weeks straight.

Avery - 06:34

Yeah, absolutely.

So what were some of the red flags for that burnout experience that you wish you didn't miss?

Because again, hindsight's a jerk.

So looking back on it, what would you wish you could have told yourself?

Lindsay - 06:49

Yeah, I mean, if I had to go back to my 23 year old self, First of all, I'd spend a lot of time giving her some real empathy and talking her through the fact that that first marriage did not mean that she was a screw-up, did not mean that she was a failure, it just meant the marriage failed.

And from there I would tell her that she had nothing to prove, that she didn't need to go back and take three courses all at once.

I would also tell her that she was in a shitty job and working for a shitty boss and she should quit, because that's the truth of it.

And yeah, I would just give her a lot of love and a lot of patience and a lot of kindness because I think, you know, that's what we need as high achievers is we just need someone to help us see ourselves as brilliant just as we are.

Avery - 07:47

Yes, brilliant aside from whatever we accomplish.

Just for breathing and being.

Which is really hard for us to accept, isn't it?

Lindsay - 08:00

It is.

And I think in that space in particular, I just, I really felt like such a failure.

I really did.

I, you know, I got into a marriage that I should never have been in.

And, you know, I actually had family, you know, try to tell me that.

And I was hell-bent.

Like I was, I was going to marry that man.

Lindsay - 08:17

I was going to have a family with him.

And so part of that is, you know, that living repercussion and the regret.

And I think that absolutely fires the high trigger because you're going to prove, you're going to prove even more that you are not a failure, right?

So one thing really exacerbated the other, particularly in my circumstance.

Avery - 08:42

Yeah, absolutely.

And one of the things that we've also talked about in the past is that burnout isn't really a cycle, like you don't come back up to where you were before after you burn out, it's kind of more like a wave, like you had to hit the peak, you crash down, you come up a little bit and then you crash down

a little bit more and then you're kind of just hovering around surviving.

So this experience of burnout, it was not your only experience of burnout, is that true?

Lindsay - 09:08

Yeah, no, I mean, certainly I've had more than one, that is absolutely the truth.

And yeah, you do ride the wave and you do come back, I think, after an experience like that.

You do have to slow down, like whether you like it or not as a high achiever, you hit the wall, is the truth.

And so then you have to, but yeah, certainly again, Several years later, as a more experienced professional, I actually really had a very significant burnout experience where I actually had to step away from my job for several weeks.

The truth is, I was really sick.

I had a major depressive episode.

Thank God for my mother.

Lindsay - 09:56

I have an incredibly supportive family.

And it was actually my mom that came to me and said, you're not well.

You're not looking after yourself very well.

You're not looking after your girl very well.

And again, I was a single mom for like 12 years.

So I was single for a very long time.

And so this was in the middle of that single parenting and which is like that's hard just all of that like if all you had to do was just be a single parent but then of course you were also working a full-time gig again working in an environment that was pretty toxic and for a leader that was not

Lindsay - 10:35

that said she was understanding but really was not My mom actually had to take me to the doctor and I had to step away from work for a period of time of course because then you go on those medications, the antidepressants or the anti-anxieties and actually makes it worse instead of better in the

short term.

A lot of them and they take time to build up to a therapeutic level in your system and so I really, I did, I had to step away from full-time work I had to step away from full-time parenting.

My parents had to step in and really support me because I was struggling deeply.

I wasn't sleeping, I wasn't eating.

That is not helpful in any way.

And then, again, another decade later, I ended up working for an incredibly toxic boss.

Lindsay - 11:32

A narcissistic sociopathic gaslighter.

And again, found myself in a space of really significant burnout.

Now the thing is, at least as a high achiever, you do actually learn.

You learn through the school of hard knocks.

And the last time that I got really close to burnout, I actually knew what that looked like because I had been there.

Avery - 12:01

So what were the signs?

What did you notice?

Lindsay - 12:03

Yeah, I was again not sleeping.

This time I was eating too much so I gained a ton of weight.

I was back on any anxiety meds after not being on them for many years.

I was like chronically ill. Every month I would catch a new bug or virus.

If you came around me and you sneezed, I was going to get it.

It's remarkable how your immune system just takes a dive.

Avery - 12:33

Yeah, it's so tied to the stress response and cortisol.

Lindsay - 12:37

Body keeps the score.

Whether you are paying attention to the scoreboard or not, your body's always keeping the score.

You know, the truth is I really noticed that my thought process, like my ability to problem solve was compromised.

I wasn't being as creative and innovative as I normally was.

Um, I was not, uh, you know, I was kind of, I don't want to say conspiracy theory, but you get into that head space where it's, you're kind of on the treadmill of, is somebody out to get me?

Avery - 13:10

Totally.

Lindsay - 13:11

Well, and to be fair, again, I was working for a gas lighter.

She was out to get me.

Um, I wasn't, I wasn't actually making that part up, but you start to see that in all sorts of places that it doesn't actually exist.

That's one of the things that I really experienced.

And then, you know, the ironic part was I was just drained.

I did some testing after the fact and I literally had no vitamins or minerals left in my system like they were all gone.

Leached right out.

Avery - 13:45

Yeah, your body used every last ounce of energy you had stored anywhere.

Yeah.

Lindsay - 13:50

Yeah, it did.

And in this particular episode, this caused me to leave my corporate HR career.

I quit in the middle of a meeting with the toxic boss.

Wow.

I couldn't tolerate it anymore.

Avery - 14:06

That's almost like a sitcom exit of something that's so unique that you got to quit right in the middle of a meeting.

Lindsay - 14:14

Yeah, it wasn't planned.

It was completely spontaneous.

But I really, I guess, you know, you go through some of those, again, as a high achiever, and a people pleaser.

You know, we have a club, we meet every Wednesday, bring wine.

Yeah, I'm here.

I think because I had several of those experiences in my younger years, And I knew, like I was confident in my career and my skill set and in my ability.

This, you know, this was me in, you know, sort of in my late 30s, early 40s.

Lindsay - 14:53

And as a woman, you flip a switch when you turn 40. 40. And the truth is, you just don't tolerate a lot of BS anymore.

And it doesn't get better.

It actually gets worse as you get older.

By the time you're like 75, you don't give a shit about anybody.

At any rate, there's something magical about turning 40. 40. And so I think that was the pieces that I just recognized that it didn't matter.

It didn't matter if she didn't think I was good enough.

It didn't matter if she didn't think I was doing the right.

Lindsay - 15:22

It didn't matter if she wanted to bully me.

I just wasn't tolerating that and and it was like something magical happened in the moment and I said you know what I don't think I fit here anymore and I've been in this this I've been in this job for 10 years or in this business this is a place I had long-term career plans long-term career plans

and yeah it was like like a switch flipped and I said no I'm out.

And I shut my, I said, no, I'm, I'm getting really emotional now.

So I'm going to shut my computer off.

And I walked away.

I left a 10 year curve behind.

Lindsay - 16:06

Wow.

Unknown speaker - 16:07

Yeah.

Avery - 16:07

And so explain the journey to me from that point.

How did you start to dig yourself back out from that pre-burnout state?

And how did you get to yourself to where you're doing now?

Lindsay - 16:18

Yeah.

So I drove myself home.

I'm not sure how I got here.

My husband was home, which was great.

And he said, like, what's wrong with you?

And I said, well, I think I just quit my job.

And he was like, you did what?

Lindsay - 16:31

What are you talking about?

I spent, that was like a Thursday.

I spent the weekend in bed watching every season of Game of Thrones in the dark.

And then I got up on Monday morning and thought, Okay, well I'm not going back, so I guess I better figure out where I'm going forward.

Now at the time, I had already committed to the coaching program that I have a designation in.

And I knew that I really wanted to strengthen my coaching skill set and that practice.

Being an HR professional, I did a lot of coaching already, but I knew I wanted to go deeper.

Lindsay - 17:15

And so I was able to, from August to September, Go to the coach training institute, which is where I was able to go to them and say, listen, I was only supposed to take one course this fall, but I want to take all of them.

And so what I did was in a matter of weeks, I was walking into a hotel boardroom.

Sitting down with a group of people who became incredible friends and peers for me and I dove very deeply into the coach training and I will tell you that that had a profound effect on my ability to recover from burnout because I received not only incredible coaching from my peers and also From the

master coaches that run the program.

But I had an environment of people that were deeply committed but also very vulnerable.

We were all learning together.

Everybody was essentially new to this.

Lindsay - 18:16

There was an incredible container.

In the in the in the learning this was sort of the basic tenants of the program that we went into and and so like I just I found a group of humans who were compassionate who were unafraid of the emotion as it came up And that was absolutely critical to processing all of the crap, all of the anger,

all of the resentment, all of the frustration, all of the grief.

Because when I left that job, that was me leaving a 10-year career, like where I saw myself growing.

So they were unafraid.

To give me the space to process all of that emotion.

And that was significant.

Lindsay - 19:06

I would tell you my friend group was crucial, and my family, because I was angry.

And then I was sad.

Like varying degrees at any moment in time.

Right?

It was tricky.

It was tricky.

And I was exhausted.

Lindsay - 19:24

So I actually spent a lot of time working on my physical health.

Again, Drained of all good things, all the nutrients were gone.

I don't know how I was standing, like to be real about it.

So I went on a pretty significant regime of vitamins and minerals to try and pump my system back up.

I did some diet shifts that made a big difference for me and I spent a lot of time just processing, journaling, which again was part of the coaching program that I was taking but I just needed to get it out.

Avery - 20:03

Yeah.

Yeah.

That sounds so powerful.

That whole shift.

And it was just like you said, it's the support.

Yeah.

That you were not alone in that space.

Avery - 20:12

It seemed to have a really big impact for you.

That's so beautiful.

Thank you for sharing that.

Lindsay - 20:17

Yeah.

Yeah, it was.

The coaching was critical for me.

Unknown speaker - 20:20

100%.

Avery - 20:23

So if somebody is listening right now and is totally relating to your story, working for a super toxic boss, wishing that they could just quit, what would you tell them?

Unknown speaker - 20:23

100%.

Lindsay - 20:34

Get out.

Get out.

You have skills and experience that are valuable.

And if you can't afford to quit right away, that's cool, I get that.

Get your resume together, get your cover letter together, get your LinkedIn shined up and put yourself out there.

You don't have to stay in a space where you feel it is abusive and inappropriate.

And the truth is that's where I was.

Lindsay - 21:00

I spent two years trying to please someone, trying to hustle for my self-worth.

She was never going to approve of me.

And if you're listening and you're in that moment, it's never going to be good enough.

So pack up your toys and go home immediately.

What is strong and beautiful message?

I'm over here being like, ah, yeah, yeah.

Don't tolerate it.

Lindsay - 21:28

Don't tolerate it.

Go and find yourself a new job.

Go and work at McDonald's if you have to.

Like you deserve self-respect and you are valuable and just get yourself out of that situation immediately.

Avery - 21:43

Yeah.

Beautiful.

So tell us Lindsay, if people want to learn a little bit more about you and what you do, and maybe if they're an entrepreneur wanting to help get better at leading their team, where should they find you?

Lindsay - 21:57

Yeah, you can find me.

My website is the first place and that's highvoltageleadership.ca.

There's more about me and what I do and how I do it.

I'm on Instagram and my handle is at highvoltleadership so you can come and follow me.

I'm also on LinkedIn a lot so come and find me, Lindsay White.

I'd love to connect and I try really hard to share valuable content to help female entrepreneurs and small business owners do a really great job as they build and grow and lead their teams and I'd love to connect with you.

Avery - 22:34

That sounds wonderful.

So we'll link to all of those things in the show notes for sure.

So if there was only one thing that somebody got from this episode and the last thing that you want them to remember, what do you want it to be?

Lindsay - 22:46

Yeah, that you don't have to tolerate a toxic boss.

You don't have to.

Lovely.

Avery - 22:56

Well, thank you so much, Lindsay.

This was such a great chat and I really appreciate your vulnerability.

Multiple speakers - 23:01

Well, thanks.

Lindsay - 23:03

Thanks for having me.

I love sharing that story.

Avery - 23:06

It's a really powerful story and I know a lot of people will be able to relate to it.

Thanks.

Hey hey hey hey hey, do not press that skip button yet.

Yes, this is the end of the episode, but I still have something else I think you're really going to like.

I know, you're already an expert at setting goals that push you out of your comfort zone.

Let's be real, you're a high achiever after all.

But how often do you sabotage yourself on the way to achieving those goals?

Avery - 23:34

Perfectionism, procrasti-planning, over-committing, holding yourself to a double standard.

All of these things can sabotage our progress by either slowing it down or making it impossible for us to achieve our goals.

Like we talk about so often on this podcast, awareness of what's causing the issue is the first step.

So take that first step by going to thetruthaboutburnout.com slash quiz to take our free quiz to discover your self-sabotage style.

And of course, I won't leave you stuck.

Once you complete the quiz and discover your primary self-sabotage style, I'll follow up with an email giving you ideas about what to do about it so that it stops holding you back.

Go to thetruthaboutburnout.com slash quiz to get started.

Avery - 24:19

That's it for now, until next week.

Burnout is a layered experience with symptoms that go beyond physical, emotional, and mental well-being and causes that are more than just stress management related. In fact, intersectionality plays a huge role in the prevalence and overall recovery experience of burnout. 

Looking through an intersectional lens reveals the intricate web of societal factors contributing to the rise in burnout rates over the last several years. Workplace culture, societal norms, and systemic injustices intersect to create environments that are set up for burnout. The truth is that all of these things may disproportionately affect individuals from marginalized communities, exacerbating feelings of overwhelm and exhaustion.

Recognizing burnout as a multifaceted phenomenon influenced by intersecting identities and systemic inequalities is essential for not just leaders, but all of us. Intersectionality creates the foundation for the interconnectedness of individual experiences and societal structures, highlighting the need for comprehensive strategies that address the complex array of factors. Before we can advocate for inclusive policies, we have to first start by fostering supportive environments, and learning about systemic injustices that perpetuate burnout especially in marginalized groups. By centering intersectional perspectives in discussions around burnout, we can develop more nuanced interventions that prioritize equity, justice, and holistic well-being for all individuals.

Intersectionality theory, pioneered by legal scholar Kimberlé Crenshaw in the late 1980s, offers a multidimensional framework for understanding social identities and systems of power. At its core, intersectionality recognizes that individuals hold multiple, intersecting identities (such as race, gender, sexuality, ability, and socio-economic status), and these identities intersect to shape unique experiences and perspectives. It goes beyond viewing individuals as simply belonging to one social group or facing one form of discrimination, acknowledging the complexity of lived experiences.

The impact of intersecting identities on individuals' experiences is so important to consider when we’re discussing burnout. For instance, a Black woman may face unique challenges that arise from the intersection of racism and sexism, which cannot be fully understood by examining either factor in isolation. Similarly, a person with a disability who also belongs to a marginalized racial group may encounter distinct forms of discrimination that stem from the intersection of ableism and racism.

You see, intersectionality highlights the interconnectedness of various forms of oppression and privilege. It emphasizes how systems of power and inequality operate simultaneously, creating complex and overlapping dynamics of privilege and marginalization. For example, while white women like me may experience gender-based oppression, they may also benefit from racial privilege compared to women of color. Acknowledging these factors allows us to see the importance of addressing multiple forms of oppression and privilege to achieve true equity and justice in society and lower the rates of burnout.

Marginalized identities, including factors such as race, gender, sexuality, ability, and socio-economic status, often intersect to amplify vulnerability to burnout. Systemic barriers and discrimination inherent in societal structures can exacerbate stressors, leading to heightened levels of exhaustion, cynicism, protective complacency and inefficacy commonly associated with burnout. For instance, individuals from marginalized communities may face additional stressors such as microaggressions, limited access to resources, and disproportionate workloads without equal pay, all of which contribute to a heightened risk of burnout.

It’s important to also take into consideration the intersectionality of privilege and power dynamics and how these play a significant role in shaping the experience of burnout. While individuals with privileged identities may also experience burnout, their burnout experience often manifests differently due to their relative access to resources, support systems, and opportunities for self-care. Privilege can shield individuals from certain stressors or afford them greater autonomy in managing workload and boundaries. Regardless, it's crucial to acknowledge that even individuals with privileged identities can experience burnout, albeit in different ways, highlighting the nuanced interplay between privilege, power, and mental well-being. This is why recognizing these intersecting dynamics is essential for fostering inclusive approaches to addressing burnout and promoting holistic well-being for all individuals.

As a disabled white woman, my experience of burnout is intricately shaped by the intersectionality of my identities. Being both disabled and a woman exposes me to unique stressors that intersect to compound the challenges I face. For instance, navigating inaccessible environments and encountering ableist attitudes add layers of strain to my daily life. Additionally, as a woman, societal expectations of caretaking and emotional labor often burden me disproportionately, contributing to feelings of being pulled in many different ways both personally and professionally, as well as generalized feelings of overwhelm and exhaustion. My intersecting identities could potentially magnify the impact of burnout, which highlights my need for a nuanced understanding of these complexities if I want to prevent burnout from happening to me again.

As a white person, I must also acknowledge the privilege that comes with my racial identity. While experiencing burnout, I recognize that I may have access to certain resources and support systems that others from marginalized racial groups may not. It’s a very different experience for me navigating the healthcare system than it would be for someone with darker skin. I have to acknowledge that this is crucial when I’m talking to organizations about burnout in their staff, or when I work with my clients one-on-one.

However, my experience is just one of many intersecting identities that inform individuals' encounters with burnout. Amplifying these diverse voices and experiences is crucial in discussions about burnout to ensure that interventions and support systems are inclusive and effective. 

We don’t know what we don’t know, and we can’t fully understand someone else’s experience if we don’t listen. 

By centering the experiences of marginalized individuals, we can shed light on systemic inequities, challenge dominant narratives, and cultivate empathy and understanding. Ultimately, fostering a more inclusive dialogue around burnout enables us to develop holistic approaches that address the intersecting needs of all individuals.

Addressing systemic issues contributing to burnout necessitates collective action at multiple levels of society. Intersectional frameworks offer valuable tools for understanding and tackling these challenges comprehensively. At the societal level, collective action involves advocating for policies that address systemic inequalities and promote social justice. This includes challenging discriminatory practices in workplaces, healthcare systems, and educational institutions. Organizations play a crucial role in implementing inclusive policies and practices that consider the diverse needs of all individuals such as:

Ultimately, addressing burnout requires a collective commitment to promoting equity, justice, and well-being for marginalized communities. This entails centering the voices and experiences of marginalized individuals, dismantling oppressive structures, and advocating for systemic change. By working together across societal, organizational, and individual levels, we can create environments that prioritize mental health, foster resilience, and promote holistic well-being for all.

References:

Crenshaw, Kimberlé. "Mapping the Margins: Intersectionality, Identity Politics, and Violence against Women of Color." Stanford Law Review, vol. 43, no. 6, 1991, pp. 1241–1299.

Collins, Patricia Hill. Black Feminist Thought: Knowledge, Consciousness, and the Politics of Empowerment. Routledge, 2000.

Cho, Sumi, Kimberlé Crenshaw, and Leslie McCall, editors. Intersectionality: An Intellectual History. Oxford University Press, 2020.

Meyer, Ilan H. "Prejudice, Social Stress, and Mental Health in Lesbian, Gay, and Bisexual Populations: Conceptual Issues and Research Evidence." Psychological Bulletin, vol. 129, no. 5, 2003, pp. 674–697.

Burke, Ronald J. "Workaholism, Burnout, and Work Engagement: Three of a Kind or Three Different Kinds of Employee Well-being?" Applied Psychology, vol. 57, no. 2, 2008, pp. 173–203.

Maslach, Christina, and Michael P. Leiter. "Understanding the Burnout Experience: Recent Research and Its Implications for Psychiatry." World Psychiatry, vol. 15, no. 2, 2016, pp. 103–111.

Williams, David R., and Michelle Sternthal. "Understanding Racial-Ethnic Disparities in Health: Sociological Contributions." Journal of Health and Social Behavior, vol. 51, no. 1, 2010, pp. S15–S27.

APA Dictionary of Psychology. American Psychological Association, 2020.

Krieger, Nancy. "Embodying Inequality: A Review of Concepts, Measures, and Methods for Studying Health Consequences of Discrimination." International Journal of Health Services, vol. 29, no. 2, 1999, pp. 295–352.

Crenshaw, Kimberlé, and Neil Gotanda. "Critical Race Theory: Key Documents that Shaped the Movement." The New Press, 1995.