Allen and Joel sit down with Dan Fesenmeyer of Windquest Advisors to discuss turbine supply agreement fundamentals, negotiation leverage, and how tariff uncertainty is reshaping contract terms. Dan also explains why operators should maximize warranty claims before service agreements take over.

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Allen Hall: Dan, welcome to the program. Great to be here. Thanks for having me, guys. Well, we’ve been looking forward to this for several weeks now because. We’re trying to learn some of the ins and outs of turbine supply agreements, FSAs, because everybody’s talking about them now. Uh, and there’s a lot of assets being exchanged.

A lot of turbine farms up for sale. A lot of acquisitions on the other side, on the investment side coming in and. As engineers, we don’t deal a lot with TSAs. It’s just not something that we typically see until, unless there’s a huge problem and then we sort of get involved a little bit. I wanna understand, first off, and you have a a ton of experience doing this, that’s why we [00:01:00] love having you.

What are some of the fundamentals of turbine supply agreements? Like what? What is their function? How do they operate? Because I think a lot of engineers and technicians don’t understand the basic fundamentals of these TSAs. 

Dan Fesenmeyer: The TSA is a turbine supply agreement and it’s for the purchase and delivery of the wind turbines for your wind farm.

Um, typically they are negotiated maybe over a 12 ish month period and typically they’re signed at least 12 months before you need, or you want your deliveries for the wind turbines. 

Joel Saxum: We talk with people all over the world. Um, you know, GE Americas is different than GE in Spain and GE in Australia and Nordics here, and everybody’s a little bit different.

Um, but what we, we regularly see, and this is always an odd thing to me, is you talked about like negotiating. It starts 12 months ahead of time stuff, but we see that [00:02:00] the agreements a lot of times are very boilerplate. They’re very much like we’re trying to structure this in a certain way, and at the end of the day, well, as from an operator standpoint, from the the person buying them, we would like this and we would like this and we would like this, but at the end of the day, they don’t really seem to get that much negotiation in ’em.

It’s kind of like, this is what the agreement you’re gonna take and this is how we sell them. That’s it. Is, is that your experience? I mean, you’re at GE for a long time, one of the leading OEMs, but is that what you’re seeing now or is there a little bit more flexibility or kind of what’s your take on that?

Dan Fesenmeyer: I think generally it depends, and of course the, the OEMs in the, and I’ll focus more on the us, they’ll start with their standard template and it’s up to the purchaser, uh, to develop what they want as their wishlist and start negotiations and do their, let’s say, markup. So, uh, and then there’s a bit of leverage involved.

If you’re buying two units, it’s hard to get a lot of interest. [00:03:00] If you’re buying 200 units, then you have a lot more leverage, uh, to negotiate terms and conditions in those agreements. I was with GE for 12 years on the sales and commercial side and now doing advisory services for four years. Uh, some of these negotiations can go for a long time and can get very, very red.

Others can go pretty quick. It really depends on what your priorities are. How hard you want to push for what you need. 

Allen Hall: So how much detail goes into a TSA then are, are they getting very prescriptive, the operators coming with a, a list of things they would like to see? Or is it more negotiating on the price side and the delivery time and the specifics of the turbine?

Dan Fesenmeyer: Generally speaking, you start kind of with the proposal stage and. First thing I always tell people is, let’s understand what you have in your proposal. Let’s understand, you know, what are the delivery [00:04:00] rates and times and does that fit with your project? Does the price work with respect to your PPA, what does it say about tariffs?

That’s a huge one right now. Where is the risk going to land? What’s in, what’s out? Um. Is the price firm or is there indexation, whether it’s tied to commodities or different currencies. So in my view, there’s some pre-negotiations or at least really understanding what the offer is before you start getting into red lines and, and generally it’s good to sit down with the purchasing team and then ultimately with the OEM and walk through that proposal.

Make sure you have everything you need. Make sure you understand what’s included, what’s not. Scope of supply is also a big one. Um, less in less in terms of the turbine itself, but more about the options, like does it have the control features you need for Ercot, for example. Uh, does it have leading [00:05:00]edge protection on your blades?

Does it have low noise trailing edge? Do we even need lo low noise trailing edges? Uh, you know, those 

Joel Saxum: sorts 

Dan Fesenmeyer: of things. 

Joel Saxum: Do you see the more of the red lining in the commercial phase or like the technical phase? Because, and why I ask this question is when we talk, ’cause we’re regularly in the o and m world, right?

Talking with engineers and asset managers, how do you manage your assets? And they really complain a lot that a lot of their input in that, that feedback loop from operations doesn’t make it to the developers when they’re signing TSAs. Um, so that’s a big complaint of theirs. And so my question is like, kind of like.

All right. Are there wishes being heard or is it more general on the technical side and more focused on the commercial 

Dan Fesenmeyer: side? Where do you see that it comes down to making sure that your negotiation team has all the different voices and constituents at the table? Uh, my approach and our, our team’s approach is you have the legal piece, a technical piece, and we’re in between.

We’re [00:06:00] the commercial piece. So when you’re talking TSAs, we’re talking price delivery terms. Determination, warranty, you know, kind of the, the big ticket items, liquidated damages, contract caps, all those big ticket commercial items. When you move over to the operations agreement, which generally gets negotiated at the same time or immediately after, I recommend doing them at the same time because you have more leverage and you wanna make sure terms go from TSA.

They look the same in the. Services agreement. And that’s where it’s really important to have your operations people involved. Right? And, and we all learn by mistakes. So people that have operated assets for a long time, they always have their list of five or 10 things that they want in their o and m agreement.

And, um, from a process standpoint, before we get into red lines, we usually do kind of a high [00:07:00] level walkthrough of here’s what we think is important. Um. For the TSA and for the SMA or the operations and maintenance agreement, let’s get on the same page as a team on what’s important, what’s our priority, and what do we want to see as the outcome.

Allen Hall: And the weird thing right now is the tariffs in the United States that they are a hundred percent, 200%, then they’re 10%. They are bouncing. Like a pinball or a pong ping pong ball at the moment. How are you writing in adjustments for tariffs right now? Because some of the components may enter the country when there’s a tariff or the park the same park enter a week later and not be under that tariff.

How does that even get written into a contract right now? 

Dan Fesenmeyer: Well, that’s a fluid, it’s a fluid environment with terrorists obviously, and. It seems, and I’ll speak mostly from the two large OEMs in the US market. Um, [00:08:00] basically what you’re seeing is you have a proposal and tariffs, it includes a tariff adder based on tariffs as in as they were in effect in August.

And each one may have a different date. And this is fairly recent, right? So as of August, here’s what the dates, you know, here’s a tariff table with the different countries and the amounts. Here’s what it translates into a dollar amount. And it’ll also say, well, what we’re going to do is when, uh, these units ship, or they’re delivered X works, that’s when we come back and say, here’s what the tariffs are now.

And that difference is on the developer or the purchaser typically. 

Allen Hall: So at the end of the day. The OEM is not going to eat all the tariffs. They’re gonna pass that on. It’s just basically a price increase at the end. So the, are the, are the buyers of turbines then [00:09:00] really conscious of where components are coming from to try to minimize those tariffs?

Dan Fesenmeyer: That’s 

Allen Hall: difficult. 

Dan Fesenmeyer: I mean, I would say that’s the starting point of the negotiation. Um, I’ve seen things go different ways depending on, you know, if an off, if a developer can pass through their tariffs to the, on their PPA. They can handle more. If they can’t, then they may come back and say, you know what, we can only handle this much tariff risk or amount in our, in our PPA.

The rest we need to figure out a way to share between the OEM or maybe and the developer. Uh, so let’s not assume, you know, not one, one size doesn’t fit all. 

Joel Saxum: The scary thing there is it sound, it sounds like you’re, like, as a developer when you’re signing a TSA, you’re almost signing a pro forma invoice.

Right. That that could, that could go up 25% depending on the, the mood on, in Capitol Hill that day, which is, it’s a scary thought and I, I would think in my mind, hard to really get to [00:10:00] FID with that hanging over your head. 

Dan Fesenmeyer: Yeah. It it’s a tough situation right now for sure. Yeah. And, and we haven’t really seen what section 2 32, which is another round of potential tariffs out there, and I think that’s what.

At least in the last month or two. People are comfortable with what tariffs are currently, but there’s this risk of section 2 32, uh, and who’s going to take that risk 

Allen Hall: moving forward? Because the 2 32 risk is, is not set in stone as when it will apply yet or if it even 

Dan Fesenmeyer: will happen and the amount, right. So three ifs, three big ifs there, Alan.

Allen Hall: Yeah. And I, maybe that’s designed on purpose to be that way because it does seem. A little bit of chaos in the system will slow down wind and solar development. That’s one way you do. We just have a, a tariff. It’s sort of a tariff that just hangs out there forever. And you, are there ways to avoid that? Is it just getting the contract in [00:11:00] place ahead of time that you can avoid like the 2 32 thing or is it just luck of the draw right now?

It’s always 

Dan Fesenmeyer: up to the situation and what your project delivery. Is looking at what your PPA, what can go in, what can go out. Um, it’s tough to avoid because the OEMs certainly don’t want to take that risk. And, uh, and I don’t blame them. Uh, and separately you were asking about, well, gee, do you start worrying about where your components are sourced from?

Of course you are. However, you’re going to see that in the price and in the tariff table. Uh, typically. I would say from that may impact your, your, uh, sort of which, which OEM or which manufacturer you go with, depending on where their supply chain is. Although frankly, a lot of components come from China.

Plain and simple, 

Allen Hall: right? 

Dan Fesenmeyer: Same place. If you are [00:12:00] subject to these tariffs, then you want to be more on a, you know, what I would say a fleet wide basis. So, uh, meaning. Blades can come from two places. We don’t want to have, you know, an OEM select place number one because it’s subject to tariff and we have to pay for it.

You want it more on a fleet basis, so you’re not, so the OEM’s not necessarily picking and choosing who gets covered or who has to pay for a tariff or not. 

Joel Saxum: And I wonder that, going back to your first statement there, like if you have the power, the leverage, if you can influence that, right? Like.

Immediately. My mind goes to, of course, like one of the big operators that has like 10, 12, 15,000 turbines and deals exclusively with ge. They probably have a lot of, they might have the, the stroke to be able to say, no, we want our components to come from here. We want our blades to come from TPI Mexico, or whatever it may be, because we don’t want to make sure they’re coming from overseas.

And, and, and if that happens in, in [00:13:00] the, let’s take like the market as a whole, the macro environment. If you’re not that big player. You kind of get the shaft, like you, you would get the leftovers basically. 

Dan Fesenmeyer: You could, and that makes for a very interesting discussion when you’re negotiating the contract and, and figuring out something that could work for both.

It also gets tricky with, you know, there could be maybe three different gearbox suppliers, right? And some of those. So this is when things really get, you know, peeling back an onion level. It’s difficult and I’ll be nice to the OEMs. It’s very tough for them to say, oh, we’re only a source these gearbox, because they avoid the tariffs.

Right? That’s why I get more to this fleet cost basis, which I think is a fair way for both sides to, to handle the the issue. 

Allen Hall: What’s a turbine backlog right now? If I sign a TSA today, what’s the earliest I would see a turbine? Delivered. 

Dan Fesenmeyer: You know, I, I really don’t know the answer to that. I would say [00:14:00] generally speaking, it would be 12 months is generally the response you would get.

Uh, in terms of if I sign today, we get delivery in 12 months, 

Allen Hall: anywhere less than two years, I think is a really short turnaround period. Because if you’re going for a, uh, gas turbine, you know, something that GE or Siemens would provide, Mitsubishi would provide. You’re talking about. Five or six years out before we ever see that turbine on site.

But wind turbines are a year, maybe two years out. That seems like a no brainer for a lot of operators. 

Dan Fesenmeyer: I would say a year to two is safe. Um, my experience has been things, things really get serious 12 months out. It’s hard to get something quicker. Um, that suppliers would like to sign something two years in advance, but somewhere in between the 12 months and 24 months is generally what you can expect.

Now, I haven’t seen and been close to a lot of recent turbine supply [00:15:00]deals and, and with delivery, so I, I, I can’t quote me on any of this. And obviously different safe harbor, PTC, windows are going to be more and more important. 20 eights preferred over 29. 29 will be preferred over 30. Um, and how quick can you act and how quick can you get in line?

Allen Hall: Yeah, it’s gonna make a big difference. There’s gonna be a rush to the end. Wouldn’t you think? There’s must be operators putting in orders just because of the end of the IRA bill to try to get some production tax credits or any tax credits out of it. 

Dan Fesenmeyer: Absolutely. And you know. June of 2028 is a hell of a lot better than fall of 2028 if you want a COD in 2 28.

Right. And then you just work backwards from there. Yeah. And that’s, that’s, we’ve seen that in the past as well, uh, with, with the different PTC cliffs that we’ve [00:16:00] seen. 

Allen Hall: Let’s talk service agreements for a moment when after you have a TSA signed and. The next thing on the list usually is a service agreement, and there are some OEMs that are really hard pushing their service agreements.

25, 30, 35 years. Joel, I think 35 is the longest one I have seen. That’s a long time. 

Joel Saxum: Mostly in the Nordics though. We’ve seen like see like, uh, there are Vestas in the Nordic countries. We’ve seen some 35 year ones, but that’s, to me, that’s. That’s crazy. That’s, that’s a marriage. 35 years. The crazy thing is, is some of them are with mo models that we know have issues.

Right? That’s the one that’s always crazy to me when I watch and, and so then maybe this is a service, maybe this is a com a question is in a service level agreement, like I, I, I know people that are installing specific turbines that we’ve been staring at for five, six years that we know have problems now.

They’ve addressed a lot of the problems and different components, bearings and drive, train and [00:17:00] blades and all these different things. Um, but as an, as an operator, you’d think that you have, okay, I have my turbine supply agreement, so there’s some warranty stuff in there that’s protecting me. There is definitely some serial defect clauses that are protecting me.

Now I have a service level agreement or a service agreement that we’re signing that should protect me for from some more things. So I’m reducing my risk a little more. I also have insurance and stuff in built into this whole thing. But when, when you start crossing that gap between. These three, four different types of contracts, how do people ensure that when they get to that service level contract, that’s kind of in my mind, the last level of protection from the OEM.

How do they make sure they don’t end up in a, uh, a really weird Swiss cheese moment where something fell through the cracks, serial defects, or something like that? You know? 

Dan Fesenmeyer: Yeah. It, it comes down to, I, I think it’s good to negotiate both at the same time. Um, it sometimes that’s not practical. It’s good.

And [00:18:00] part of it is the, the simple, once your TSA is signed, you, you don’t have that leverage over that seller to negotiate terms in the services agreement, right? Because you’ve already signed a t to supply agreement. Uh, the other piece I think is really important is making sure the defect language, for example, and the warranty language in the TSA.

Pretty much gets pulled over into the service agreement, so we don’t have different definitions of what a defect is or a failed part, uh, that’s important from an execution standpoint. My view has always been in the TSA, do as much on a warranty claim as you possibly can at that end of the warranty term.

The caps and the coverages. And the warranty is much higher than under the services agreement. Services agreement [00:19:00] will end up, you know, warranty or extended warranty brackets, right? ’cause that’s not what it is. It becomes unscheduled maintenance or unplanned maintenance. So you do have that coverage, but then you’re subject to, potentially subject to CAPS or mews, annual or per event.

Um. Maybe the standard of a defect is different. Again, that’s why it’s important to keep defect in the TSAs the same as an SMA, and do your warranty claim first. Get as much fixed under the warranty before you get into that service contract. 

Joel Saxum: So with Windquest, do you go, do you regularly engage at that as farms are coming up to that warranty period?

Do you help people with that process as well? As far as end of warranty claims? Contract review and those things before they get into that next phase, you know, at the end of that two year or three years. 

Dan Fesenmeyer: Yeah. We try to be soup to nuts, meaning we’re there from the proposal to helping [00:20:00] negotiate and close the supply agreement and the services agreement.

Then once you move into the services agreement or into the operation period, we can help out with, uh, filing warranty claims. Right. Do we, do you have a serial defect, for example, or. That, that’s usually a big one. Do you have something that gets to that level to at least start that process with an root cause analysis?

Um, that’s, that’s obviously big ones, so we help with warranty claims and then if things aren’t getting fixed on time or if you’re in a service agreement and you’re unhappy, we try to step in and help out with, uh, that process as well. 

Joel Saxum: In taking on those projects, what is your most common component that you deal with for seald?

Defects, 

Dan Fesenmeyer: gearboxes seem to always be a problem. Um, more recently, blade issues, um, main bearing issues. Uh, those are [00:21:00] some of the bigger ones. And then, yeah, and we can be main bearings. Also. Pitch bearings often an issue as well. 

Joel Saxum: Yeah, no, nothing surprising there. I think if you, if you listen to the podcast at all, you’ve heard us talk about all of those components.

Fairly regularly. We’re not, we’re not to lightening the world on firing new information on that one. 

Allen Hall: Do a lot of operators and developers miss out on that end of warranty period? It does sound like when we talk to them like they know it’s coming, but they haven’t necessarily prepared to have the data and the information ready to go till they can file anything with the OEM it.

It’s like they haven’t, they know it’s approaching, right? It’s just, it’s just like, um, you know, tax day is coming, you know, April 15th, you’re gonna write a check for to somebody, but you’re not gonna start thinking about it until April 14th. And that’s the wrong approach. And are you getting more because things are getting tighter?

Are you getting more requests to look at that and to help? Operators and developers engage that part of their agreements. I think it’s an 

Dan Fesenmeyer: [00:22:00] oppor opportunity area for owner operators. I think in the past, a lot of folks have just thought, oh, well, you know, the, the, the service agreement kicks in and it’ll be covered under unscheduled or unplanned maintenance, which is true.

But, uh, again, response time might be slower. You might be subject to caps, or in the very least, an overall contract level. Cap or limitation, let’s say. Uh, so I, I do think it’s an opportunity area. And then similarly, when you’re negotiating these upfront to put in language that, well, I don’t wanna say too much, but you wanna make sure, Hey, if I, if I file a claim during warranty and you don’t fix it, that doesn’t count against, let’s say your unplanned cap or unplanned maintenance.

Joel Saxum: That’s a good point. I was actually, Alan, this is, I was surprised the other day. You and I were on a call with someone and they had mentioned that they were coming up on end of warranty and they were just kinda like, eh, [00:23:00] we’ve got a service agreement, so like we’re not gonna do anything about it. And I was like, really?

Like that day? Like, yeah, that deadline’s passed, or it’s like too close. It wasn’t even passed. It was like, it’s coming up and a month or two. And they’re like, yeah, it’s too close. We’re not gonna do anything about it. We’ll just kind of deal with it as it comes. And I was thinking, man, that’s a weird way to.

To manage a, you know, a wind farm that’s worth 300 million bucks. 

Dan Fesenmeyer: And then the other thing is sometimes, uh, the dates are based on individual turbine CDs. So your farm may have a December 31 COD, but some of the units may have an October, uh, date. Yeah, we heard a weird one the other day that was 

Joel Saxum: like the entire wind farm warranty period started when the first turbine in the wind farm was COD.

And so there was some turbines that had only been running for a year and a half and they were at the end of warranty already. Someone didn’t do their due diligence on that contract. They should have called Dan Meyer. 

Dan Fesenmeyer: And thing is, I come back is when you know red lines are full of things that people learned [00:24:00] by something going wrong or by something they missed.

And that’s a great example of, oh yeah, we missed that when we signed this contract. 

Joel Saxum: That’s one of the reasons why Alan and I, a lot, a lot of people we talk to, it’s like consult the SMEs in the space, right? You’re, you may be at tasked with being a do it all person and you may be really good at that, but someone that deals in these contracts every day and has 20 years of experience in it, that’s the person you talk to.

Just like you may be able to figure out some things, enlight. Call Allen. The guy’s been doing lightning his whole career as a subject matter expert, or call a, you know, a on our team and the podcast team is the blade expert or like some of the people we have on our network. Like if you’re going to dive into this thing, like just consult, even if it’s a, a small part of a contract, give someone a day to look through your contract real quick just to make sure that you’re not missing anything.

’cause the insights from SMEs are. Priceless. Really. 

Dan Fesenmeyer: I couldn’t agree more. And that’s kind of how I got the idea of starting Windquest advisors to begin with. [00:25:00] Um, I used to sit across the table with very smart people, but GE would con, you know, we would negotiate a hundred contracts a year. The purchaser made one or two.

And again, this isn’t, you know, to beat up the manufacturers, right? They do a good job. They, they really work with their, their customers to. Find solutions that work for both. So this is not a beat up the OEM, uh, from my perspective, but having another set of eyes and experience can help a lot. 

Allen Hall: I think it’s really important that anybody listening to this podcast understand how much risk they’re taking on and that they do need help, and that’s what Windquest Advisors is all about.

And getting ahold of Dan. Dan, how do people get ahold of you? www.win advisors.com. If you need to get it to Dan or reach out to win advisors, check out LinkedIn, go to the website, learn more about it. Give Dan a phone call because I think [00:26:00] you’re missing out probably on millions of dollars of opportunity that probably didn’t even know existed.

Uh, so it’s, it’s a good contact and a good resource. And Dan, thank you so much for being on the podcast. We appreciate having you and. We’d like to have you back again. 

Dan Fesenmeyer: Well, I’d love to come back and talk about, maybe we can talk more about Lightning. That’s a 

Joel Saxum: couple of episodes. 

Dan Fesenmeyer: I like watching your podcast.

I always find them. Informative and also casual. It’s like you can sit and listen to a discussion and, and pick up a few things, so please continue doing what you’re doing well, thanks Dan. 

Allen Hall: Thanks Dan.

Allen and Yolanda discuss Statkraft’s workforce cuts and sale of its Swedish offshore wind projects. They also cover ORE Catapult’s partnership with Bladena to conduct torsional testing on an 88-meter blade, and the upcoming Wind Energy O&M Australia conference.

Register for ORE Catapult’s Offshore Wind Supply Chain Spotlight event!
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Sign up now for Uptime Tech News, our weekly email update on all things wind technology. This episode is sponsored by Weather Guard Lightning Tech. Learn more about Weather Guard’s StrikeTape Wind Turbine LPS retrofit. Follow the show on Facebook, YouTube, Twitter, Linkedin and visit Weather Guard on the web. And subscribe to Rosemary Barnes’ YouTube channel here. Have a question we can answer on the show? Email us!

You are listening to the Uptime Wind Energy Podcast brought to you by build turbines.com. Learn, train, and be a part of the Clean Energy Revolution. Visit build turbines.com today. Now here’s your hosts, Alan Hall, Joel Saxon, Phil Totaro, and Rosemary Barnes. 

Allen Hall: Welcome to the Uptime Wind Energy Podcast. I’m your host, Allen Hall in the Queen city of Charlotte, North Carolina.

I have Yolanda Padron in of all places, Austin, Texas. We’re together to talk to this week’s news and there’s a lot going on, but before we do, I want to highlight that Joel Saxon and I will be in Edinburgh, Scotland for the re Catapult UK offshore supply chain spotlight. That’s on December 11th, which is a Thursday.

We’re gonna attend that event. We’re excited to meet with everybody. Over in the UK and in Scotland. Um, a lot of people that we know and have been on the podcast over a number of years [00:01:00] are gonna be at that event. If you’re interested in attending the OE Catapult UK Offshore Supply Chain spotlight, just Google it.

It’s really inexpensive to attend, and I hope to see most of you there, Yolanda. There’s some big news over in Scandinavia today, uh, as, as we’re reading these stories, uh, the Norwegian State owned Utility Stack Craft, and it’s also one of Europe’s largest renewable energy companies. As, uh, as we know, I’ve been spending a lot of money in new markets and new technologies.

Uh, they are in electric vehicle charging biofuels and some offshore wind development. Off the eastern coast of Sweden. So between Finland and Sweden, they’re also involved in district heating. So Stack Craft’s a really large company with a broad scope, uh, but they’re running into a little bit of financial difficulty.

And this past July, they announced some [00:02:00] workforce reductions, and those are starting to kick in. They have 168 fewer employees, uh, by the end of this third quarter. 330 more expected to leave by the end of the year when all the dive are complete. This is the worrisome part. Roughly 1000 people will longer work for the company.

Now, as part of the restructuring of Stack Craft, they are going to or have sold their offshore portfolio to Zephyr Renewable. Which is another Norwegian company. So Stack Craft is the Norwegian state owned renewable energy company. Zephyr is an independent company, far as I can tell my recollection that’s the case.

So they agreed to acquire the bot, the uh, offshore Sigma and Lambda North projects, which makes Zephyr the largest offshore wind developer. Sweden, not Norway, [00:03:00] in Sweden. Obviously there’s some regulatory approvals that need to happen to make this go, but it does seem like Norway still is heavily involved in Sweden.

Yolanda, with all the movement in offshore wind, we’re seeing big state owned companies. Pulling themselves out of offshore wind and looks like sort of free market, capitalistic companies are going head first into offshore wind. How does that change the landscape and what should we be expecting here over the next year or two?

Yolanda Padron: We, we’ve seen a large reduction in the, the workforce in offshore wind in all of these state owned companies that you mentioned. Uh, something that I think will be really interesting to see will be that different approach. Of, you know, having these companies be a bit more like traditional corporations that you see, not necessarily having them, [00:04:00] um, be so tied to whatever politically is happening in the government at the moment, or whatever is happening between governments at a time, um, and seeing exactly what value.

The different aspects of a company are bringing into what that company is making into, um, what, uh, the revenue of that company is, and not just kind of what is, what is considered to be the best way forward by governments. Do you agree? Is that something that you’re sensing too? 

Allen Hall: The COP 30 just wrapped down in the rainforest of Brazil, and there has not been a lot of agreement news coming out of that summit.

Uh, I think next year it’s gonna move to Turkey, but Australia’s involved heavily. It was supposed to be in Adelaide at one point and then it’s moved to Turkey. [00:05:00] So there doesn’t seem to be a lot of consensus globally about what should be happening for renewables, and it feels like. The state owned companies are, uh, getting heavily leveraged and losing money trying to get their footing back underneath of them, so they’re gonna have to divest of something to get back to the core of what they were doing.

That’s an interesting development because I think one of the question marks regarding sort of these state owned companies was how fast were they willing to develop the technology? How much risk were they willing to take? Being backed by governments gets a little political at times, right? So they, they want to have a, a steady stream of revenue coming from these operations.

And when they don’t, the politicians step in and, uh, lean on the company is a good bit. Does the move to more, uh, standalone companies that are investing sort of venture capital money and bank money taking loans? I assume most of this [00:06:00] does that. Change how the offshore industry looks at itself. One and two, what the OEMs are thinking.

Because if they were going to sell to an TED or an Ecuador, or a stack raft or vattenfall, any of them, uh, you know, when you’re going to that sales discussion that they’re backed by billions and billions and billions of, of kroner or whatever the, the currency is. So you may not have to. Really be aggressive on pricing.

Now you’re dealing with companies that are heavily leveraged and don’t have that banking of a government. Do you think there’s gonna be a tightening of what that marketplace looks like or more pressure to go look towards China for offshore wind turbines? 

Yolanda Padron: It’ll definitely get a bit more audited internally, exactly what decisions are made and and how objective teams are.

I think that there’s. [00:07:00] In all of the companies that you mentioned, there’s some semblance of things that maybe happened because of what was going on politically or, or because of ties that certain governments had to each other, or certain governments had to specific corporations, um, which was a, a great way for those companies to operate at the time and what was, what made sense.

But now that it’s. A third party who genuinely, you know, needs that cash flow in from that business or that part of the business, it’ll, I think you’ll definitely start seeing some, some greater efficiencies going on within 

Allen Hall: these teams. Well, I would hope so. If you think about the way the United States moved pre, uh, the current administration.

There were a number of US based companies sort of going 50 50 on a lot of the [00:08:00] offshore development, and then they slowly started backing away. The only one that’s still really in it is Dominion, was the coastal offshore, um, coastal Virginia offshore wind project that is still progressing at a good pace.

But, uh, everybody else that was involved in, and they’re not the same kind of structure as an Ecuador is. They’re not, uh, there’s kinda state-owned entities in the United States and states can’t have deficits, unlike nations can. So the US deficit obviously is massively large, but state deficits don’t really exist.

So those electric companies can’t get highly leveraged where they’re gonna bleed cash. It’s just not a thing. It’s gonna happen. So I think I saw the precursors to some of this offshore turbulence happening in the United States as the. They didn’t see a lot of profit coming from the state electric companies.

That seems to be flowing into Europe now pretty heavily. That started about six months [00:09:00] ago. How are they gonna structure some of these offshore projects now? Are they just gonna put them on hold and wait for interest rates to come down so that the margins go up? Is is that really the play? Is that you have the plot of land?

You already have all the, the filings and the paperwork and authorization to do a project at some point, is it just now a matter of waiting where the time is? Right. Financially, 

Yolanda Padron: that question will be answered by each specific company and see what, what makes sense to them. I don’t think that it makes sense to stall projects that if you already have the permits in, if you already have everything in, and just to, to see when the time is right, because.

Everything’s been ramping up to that moment, right? Like, uh, the water’s always already flowing. Um, but it, it’ll, it’ll definitely be interesting to see what approach, like where, where each company finds themselves. I, they’ll have to rely on [00:10:00] what information has come out in the past and maybe try to analyze it, try to see exactly where things went wrong, or try to pinpoint what.

Decisions to not make. Again, knowing what they know now, but with everything already flowing and everything already in queue, it’ll have to be something that’s done sooner rather than later to not lose any of that momentum of the projects because they’re not reinventing the wheel. 

Allen Hall: Siemens is developing what a 20 odd megawatt, offshore turbine?

22 megawatt, if I remember right. 21, 22. Something in there. Obviously Ming Yang and some others are talking about upwards of 15 megawatts in the turbine. If you have a lot of capital at risk and not a lot of government backing in it, are you going to step down and stay in the 15 megawatt range offshore because there’s some little bit of history, or are you gonna just roll the dice?

Some new technology knowing that you can get the, the dollar per megawatt [00:11:00] down. If you bought a Chinese wind turbine, put it in the water. Do you roll that? Do you roll that dice and take the risk? Or is the safer bet and maybe the financing bet gonna play out easier by using a Vestus 15 megawatt turbine or a Siemens older offshore turbine that has a track record with it.

Yolanda Padron: I think initially it’ll have to be. Using what’s already been established and kind of the devil, you know? Right. I, I think it’ll, there’s a lot of companies that are coming together and, and using what’s done in the field and what operational information they have to be able to, to. Take that information and to create new studies that could be done on these new blades, on these new technologies, uh, to be able to take that next step into innovation without compromising any [00:12:00] of the, of the money, any of the aspects really like lowering your risk 

Allen Hall: portfolio.

Yeah. ’cause the risk goes all the way down to the OEMs, right. If the developer fails and the OEM doesn’t get paid. It, it’s a. Catastrophic down the chain event that Siemens investors are looking to avoid, obviously. So they’re gonna be also looking at the financing of these companies to decide whether they’re going to sell them turbines and.

The question comes up is how much are they gonna ask for a deposit before they will deliver the first turbine? It may be most of the money up front. Uh, it generally is, unless you’re a big developer. So this is gonna be an interesting, uh, turning point for the offshore wind industry. And I know in 2026 we’re gonna see a lot more news about it, and probably some names we haven’t heard of in a while.

Coming back into offshore wind. Don’t miss the UK Offshore Wind Supply Chain Spotlight 2025 in Edinburg on December 11th. Over 550 delegates and 100 exhibitors will be at this game changing event. [00:13:00] Connect with decision makers, explore market ready innovations and secure the partnerships to accelerate your growth.

Register now and take your place at the center of the UK’s offshore Wind future. Just visit supply chain spotlight.co.uk and register today. Well, as we all know, the offshore wind industry has sort of a problem, which is now starting to come more prevalent, which is the first generation of offshore wind turbines that prove that the technology could work at scale or getting old.

We’re also developing a lot of new wind turbines, so the blade links are getting much longer. We don’t have a lot of design history on them. Decommissioning is expensive. Of course, anything offshore is expensive. What if we can make those blades last longer offshore, how would we do that? Well, that question has come up a number of times at many of the, the conferences that I have attended, and it looks like ORI Catapult, which is based in the UK and has their test center [00:14:00] in Blythe, England, is working with Blade Dina, which is a Danish engineering company that’s now owned by Res.

So if you haven’t. Seeing anything from Blade Dina, you’re not paying attention. You should go to the website and check them out. Uh, they have all kinds of great little technology and I call it little technology, but innovative technology to make blades last longer. So some really cool things from the group of Blade Dina, but they’re gonna be working with re catapult to test an 88 meter blade for torsion.

And I’m an electrical engineer. I’m gonna admit it up front, Yolanda. I don’t know a lot about torsional testing. I’ve seen it done a little bit on aircraft wings, but I haven’t seen it done on wind turbine blades. And my understanding, talking to a lot of blade experts like yourself is when you start to twist a blade, it’s not that easy to simulate the loads of wind loads that would happen normally on a turbine in the laboratory.

Yolanda Padron: Absolutely. I think this is going to be so [00:15:00] exciting as someone in operations, traditionally in operations, uh, because I think a lot of the, the technology that we’ve seen so far and the development of a lot of these wind projects has been from teams that are very theory based. And so they’ve, they’ve seen what simulations can be done on a computer, and those are great and those are perfect, but.

As everyone knows, the world is a crazy place. And so there’s so many factors that you might not even think to consider before going into operations and operating this, uh, wind farm for 10, 20 years. And so something that Blade Dina is doing is bringing a lot of that operational information and seeing, like applying that to the blade testing to be able to, to get us to.

The next step of being able to innovate while knowing a little bit [00:16:00]more of what exactly you’re putting on there and not taking as big a risk. 

Allen Hall: Does the lack of torsional testing increase the risk? Because if you listen to, uh, a, a lot of blade structure people, one of the things that’s discussed, and Blaina has been working on this for a couple of years, I went back.

Two or three years to see what some of the discussions were. They’ve been working with DTU for quite a while, but Dina has, uh, but they think that some of the aging issues are really related to torsion, not to flap wise or edgewise movement of the blade, if that’s the case, particularly on longer blades, newer blades, where they’re lighter.

If that’s the case, is there momentum in the industry to create a standard on how to. Do this testing because I, I know it’s gonna be difficult. I, I can imagine all the people from Blaina that are working on it, and if you’ve met the Blaina folk, there [00:17:00] are pretty bright people and they’ve been working with DTU for a number of years.

Everybody in this is super smart. But when you try to get something into an IEC standard, you try to simplify where it can be repeatable. Is this. Uh, is it even possible to get a repeatable torsion test or is it gonna be very specific to the blade type and, or it is just gonna be thousands of hours of engineering even to get to a torsion test?

Yolanda Padron: I think right now it’ll be the thousands of hours of engineering that we’re seeing, which isn’t great, but hopefully soon there, there could be some sort of. A way to, to get all of these teams together and to create a bit of a more robust standard. Of course, these standards aren’t always perfect. We’ve seen that in, in other aspects such as lightning, but it at least gets you a starting point to, to be able to, to have everyone being compliance with, with a similar [00:18:00] testing parameters.

Allen Hall: When I was at DTU, oh boy, it’s probably been a year and a half, maybe two years ago. Yikes. A lot has happened. We were able to look at, uh, blades that had come off the first offshore wind project off the coast of Denmark. These blades were built like a tank. They could live another 20, 30 years. I think they had been on in the water for 20 plus years.

If I remember correctly. I was just dumbfounded by it, like, wow. That’s a long time for a piece of fiberglass to, to be out in such a harsh environment. And when they started to structurally test it to see how much life it had left in it, it was, this thing could last a lot longer. We could keep these blades turned a lot longer.

Is that a good design philosophy though? Are should we be doing torsional testing to extend the lifetime to. 40, 50 years because I’m concerned now that the, well, the reality is you like to have everything fall apart at once. The gearbox to fail, the generator to fail, the [00:19:00] blades, to fail, the tower, to fail all of it at the same time.

That’s your like ideal engineering design. And Rosemary always says the same thing, like you want everything to fall apart and the same day. 25 years out because at 25 years out, there’s probably a new turbine design that’s gonna be so much massively better. It makes sense to do it. 20 years is a long time.

Does it make sense to be doing torsional testing to extend the lifetime of these blades past like the 20 year lifespan? Or is, or, or is the economics of it such like, if we can make these turbines in 50 years, we’re gonna do it regardless of what the bearings will hold. 

Yolanda Padron: From, from speaking to different people in the field, there’s a lot of appetite to try to extend the, the blade lifetime as long as the permits are.

So if it’s a 50 year permit to try to get it to those 50 years as much as possible, so you don’t have to do a lot of that paperwork and a lot of the, if you have to do [00:20:00] anything related to the mono piles, it’s a bit of a nightmare. Uh, and just trying to, to see that, and of course. I agree that in a perfect world, everything would fail at once, but it doesn’t.

Right? And so there you are seeing in the lifetime maybe you have to do a gearbox replacement here and there. And so, and having the, the blades not be the main issue or not having blades in the water and pieces as long as possible or in those 50 years, then you can also tackle some of the other long-term solutions to see if you, if you can have that wind farm.

For those 50 years or if you are going to have to sort of either replace some of the turbines or, or eat up some of that time left over in the permit that you have. 

Allen Hall: Yeah, because I think the industry is moving that way to test gear boxes and to test bearings. RD test systems has made a number of advancements and test beds to do just that, to, [00:21:00] to test these 15, 20, 25 megawatt turbines for lifetime, which we haven’t done.

As much of this probably the industry should have. It does seem like we’re trying to get all the components through some sort of life testing, whatever that is, but we haven’t really understood what life testing means, particularly with blades. Right? So the, the issue of torsion, which is popped its head up probably every six months.

There’s a question about should we be testing for torsion that. Is in line with bearing testing that’s in line with gearbox testing. If we are able to do that, where we spend a little more money on the development side and the durability side, that would dramatically lower the cost of operations, right?

Yolanda Padron: Absolutely. It, it’d lower the cost of operations. It would lower the ask. Now that. A lot of these companies are transition, are [00:22:00]transitioning to be a bit more privatized. It’ll lower the risk long term for, for getting some of those financial loans out, for these projects to actually take place. And, you know, you’ll, you’re having a, a site last 50 years, you’re going to go through different cycles.

Different political cycles. So you won’t have that, um, you won’t have that to, to factor in too much, into, into your risk of whether, whether or not you, you have a permit today and don’t have it tomorrow. 

Allen Hall: It does bring the industry to a interesting, uh, crossroads if we can put a little more money into the blades to make them last 25 years.

Pretty regularly like the, the, you’re almost guaranteeing it because of the technology that bleeding that’s gonna develop with Ory Catapult and you get the gearbox and you can get the generator and bearings all to do the same thing. [00:23:00] Are you willing to pay a little bit more for that turbine? Because I think in today’s world or last year’s world, the answer was no.

I wanted the cheapest blade. I wanted the cheapest, uh, to sell. I could get, I wanna put ’em on a tower, I’m gonna call it done. And then at least in the United States, like repower, it’s boom, 10 years it’s gonna repower. So I don’t care about year 20. I don’t even care about year 11, honestly, that those days have are gone for a little while, at least.

Do you think that there’s appetite for say, a 10% price increase? Maybe a 15% say 20. Let’s just go crazy and say it’s a 20% price increase to then know, hey, we have some lifecycle testing. We’re really confident in the durability these turbines is. There’s a trade off there somewhere there, right? 

Yolanda Padron: Yeah. I mean, spending 10, 20% of CapEx to it, it.

Will, if you can dramatically increase [00:24:00] the, the lifetime of the blades and not just from the initial 10 years, making them 20 years like we’re talking about, but some of these blades are failing before they hit that 10 year mark because of that lack of testing, right. That we’ve seen, we’ve talked to so many people about, and it’s an unfortunate reality.

But it is a reality, right? And so it is something that if you’re, you’re either losing money just from having to do a lot of repairs or replacements, or you’re losing money from all of the downtime and not having that generation until you can get those blade repairs or replacements. So in spending a little bit more upfront, I, I feel like there should be.

Great appetite from a lot of these companies to, to spend that money and not have to worry about that in the long term. 

Allen Hall: Yeah, I think the 20 26, 27, Joel would always say it’s 2027, but let’s just say 2027. If you have an [00:25:00] opportunity to buy a really hard and vested turbine or a new ing y, twin headed dragon and turbine, whatever, they’re gonna call this thing.

I think they’re gonna stick to the European turbine. I really do. I think the lifetime matters here. And having security in the testing to show that it’s gonna live that long will make all the little difference to the insurance market, to the finance market. And they’re gonna force, uh, the developers’ hands that’s coming, 

Yolanda Padron: you know, developing of a project.

Of course, we see so many projects and operations and everything. Um, but developing a project does take years to happen. So if you’re developing a project and you think, you know, this is great because I can have this project be developed and it will take me and it’ll be alive for a really long time and it’ll be great and I’ll, I’ll be able to, to see that it’s a different, it’s a different business case too, of how much money you’re going to bring into the [00:26:00]company by generating a lot more and a lot more time and having to spend less upfront in all of the permitting.

Because if instead of having to develop two projects, I can just develop one and it’ll last as long as two projects, then. Do you really have your business case made for you? Especially if it’s just a 10 to 20% increase instead of a doubling of all of the costs and effort. 

Speaker 4: Australia’s wind farms are growing fast, but are your operations keeping up?

Join us February 17th and 18th at Melbourne’s Poolman on the park for Wind Energy o and M Australia 2026, where you’ll connect with the experts solving real problems in maintenance asset management. And OEM relations. Walk away with practical strategies to cut costs and boost uptime that you can use the moment you’re back on site.

Register now at W om a 2020 six.com. Wind Energy, o and m Australia is created [00:27:00] by Wind professionals for wind professionals. Because this industry needs solutions, not speeches, 

Allen Hall: I know Yolanda and I are preparing to go to Woma Wind Energy, o and m Australia, 2026 in February. Everybody’s getting their tickets and their plans made.

If you haven’t done that, you need to go onto the website, woma WMA 2020 six.com and register to attend the event. There’s a, there’s only 250 tickets, Yolanda, that’s not a lot. We sold out last year. I think it’s gonna be hard to get a ticket here pretty soon. You want to be there because we’re gonna be talking about everything operations and trying to make turbines in Australia last longer with less cost.

And Australians are very, um, adept at making things work. I’ve seen some of their magic up close. It’s quite impressive. Uh, so I’m gonna learn a lot this year. What are you looking forward to at Wilma 26? Yolanda. [00:28:00]

Yolanda Padron: I think it’s going to be so exciting to have such a, a relatively small group compared to the different conferences, but even just the fact that it’s everybody talking to each other who’s seen so many different modes of failure and so many different environments, and just everybody coming together to talk solutions or to even just establish relationships for when that problem inevitably arises without having it.

Having, I mean, something that I always have so much anxiety about whenever I go to conferences is just like getting bombarded by salespeople all the time, and so this is just going to be great Asset managers, engineers, having everybody in there and having everybody talking the same language and learning from each other, which will be very valuable.

At least for me. 

Allen Hall: It’s always sharing. That’s what I enjoy. And it’s not even necessarily during some of the presentations and the round tables and the, [00:29:00] the panels as much as when you’re having coffee out in the break area or you’re going to dinner at night, or uh, meeting before everything starts in the morning.

You just get to learn so much about the wind industry and where people are struggling, where they’re succeeding, how they dealt with some of these problems. That’s the way the industry gets stronger. We can’t all remain in our little foxholes, not looking upside, afraid to poke our head up and look around a little bit.

We, we have to be talking to one another and understanding how others have attacked the same problem. And I always feel like once we do that, life gets a lot easier. I don’t know why we’re make it so hard and wind other industries like to talk to one another. We seem somehow close ourselves off. And uh, the one thing I’ve learned in Melbourne last year was.

Australians are willing to describe how they have fixed these problems. And I’m just like dumbfounded. Like, wow, that was brilliant. You didn’t get to to Europe and talk about what’s going on [00:30:00] there. So the exchange of information is wonderful, and I know Yolanda, you’re gonna have a great time and so are everybody listening to this podcast.

Go to Woma, WOMA 2020 six.com and register. It’s not that much money, but it is a great time and a wonderful learning experience. That wraps up another episode of the Uptime Wind Energy Podcast. And if today’s discussion sparked any questions or ideas, we’d love to hear from you. Reach out to us on LinkedIn and don’t for, and don’t forget to subscribe so you never miss an episode.

And if you found value in today’s conversation, please leave us a review. It really helps other wind energy professionals discover the show and we’ll catch you on the next episode of the Uptime Wind Energy Podcast. This time next [00:31:00] week.

Allen covers the debate over Chinese wind turbines in Europe, from data security concerns and unfair subsidies to the risk of trading one energy dependency for another.

Sign up now for Uptime Tech News, our weekly email update on all things wind technology. This episode is sponsored by Weather Guard Lightning Tech. Learn more about Weather Guard’s StrikeTape Wind Turbine LPS retrofit. Follow the show on Facebook, YouTube, Twitter, Linkedin and visit Weather Guard on the web. And subscribe to Rosemary Barnes’ YouTube channel here. Have a question we can answer on the show? Email us!

Wind energy is one of Europe’s great strengths.

Providing twenty percent of European electricity today.

Over half by 2050.

That’s the plan.

Competitive. Homegrown. Quick to build.

Almost every wind turbine spinning in Europe today was made in Europe.

By European companies.

Assembled in European factories.

Hundreds of factories across the continent make components for wind turbines.

Over Four hundred thousand Europeans punch the clock in wind energy.

Every new turbine generates sixteen million euros of economic activity.

And this week, proof of that investment.

In Germany, the He Dreiht offshore wind farm just sent its first power into the grid.

Nine hundred sixty megawatts.

Germany’s largest offshore wind farm.

VESTAS turbines standing one hundred forty-two meters tall.

Sixty-four turbines total.

All commissioned by summer 2026.

NILS DE BAAR of VESTAS said the fifteen megawatt turbine sets new standards in offshore wind power.

European technology.

European manufacturing.

European energy.

In Ireland, more European investment.

SSE and FUTURENERGY IRELAND tapped NORDEX to build the Wind Farm in County Donegal.

Twelve turbines.

Sixty megawatts.

One hundred thirty-eight million dollars.

Forty thousand Irish homes powered when those blades turn in 2027.

And in Scotland and Italy, floating wind is consolidating.

NADARA is acquiring BLUEFLOAT ENERGY’s stake in ten floating offshore projects.

BROADSHORE. BELLROCK. SINCLAIR. SCARABEN.

Nearly three gigawatts of floating wind now under single European ownership.

Today’s wind farms save Europe one hundred billion cubic meters of gas imports every year.

In Britain alone, consumers saved one hundred four billion pounds between 2010 and 2023.

That’s after factoring in the cost of building the wind farms.

Wind means lower energy bills.

Wind means independence.

But here comes the temptation.

Chinese turbines are cheaper.

Much cheaper.

And in times of strained budgets and rising costs…

That’s hard to ignore.

GILES DICKSON is the CEO of WINDEUROPE.

He says…

Think about what you’re buying.

The European Commission launched an inquiry last year.

They suspect Chinese manufacturers offer prices and payment terms backed by unfair government subsidies.

European manufacturers can’t legally offer the same deferred payment deals.

OECD rules won’t allow it.

Then there’s energy security.

Europe just weaned itself off Russian gas.

Painfully.

Expensively.

Three years later, high energy prices still drag on the economy.

Does Europe want another dangerous dependency?

This time on imported equipment instead of imported fuel?

And as Giles points out – a modern wind turbine has hundreds of sensors.

Hundreds.

Gathering performance data.

Monitoring operations.

European law prohibits exporting that data to China.

But Chinese law allows Beijing to require Chinese companies to send data home from overseas operations.

There’s a contradiction.

Someone’s going to break the law.

And those sensors?

They don’t just collect data.

They can control equipment.

The European Union and NATO are voicing concerns.

The wind industry has invested over fourteen billion euros in new and expanded European factories in just the last two years.

That’s commitment.

That’s confidence.

And the rest of the world is taking notice.

In Japan, FAIRWIND just signed a strategic partnership with WIND ENERGY PARTNERS in YOKOHAMA.

MATT CROSSAN, FAIRWIND’s Asia Pacific Director, said Japan’s wind sector is still young compared to Europe.

But government support and investment are driving expansion.

They want European expertise.

European experience.

European standards.

Wind energy is the last strategic clean tech sector with a truly European footprint.

The last one.

Solar panels. Batteries. Electric vehicles.

Those have already migrated elsewhere.

But Wind remains.

For now.

Four hundred forty thousand workers.

Two hundred fifty factories.

Fourteen billion euros in new investment.

One hundred billion cubic meters of gas imports avoided every year.

Germany’s largest offshore wind farm now feeding the grid.

Ireland building new capacity.

Scotland consolidating floating wind.

Japan seeking European partners.

Europe can buy cheaper today.

Or build stronger tomorrow.

GILES DICKSON is sounding the alarm.  But, will Europe listen?

That’s the wind industry news on the 1st of December 2025. 

Allen, Joel, and Yolanda share their annual Thanksgiving reflections on a year of major changes in wind energy. They discuss industry collaboration, the offshore wind reset, and upcoming changes in 2026. Thanks to all of our listeners from the Uptime team!

Sign up now for Uptime Tech News, our weekly email update on all things wind technology. This episode is sponsored by Weather Guard Lightning Tech. Learn more about Weather Guard’s StrikeTape Wind Turbine LPS retrofit. Follow the show on Facebook, YouTube, Twitter, Linkedin and visit Weather Guard on the web. And subscribe to Rosemary Barnes’ YouTube channel here. Have a question we can answer on the show? Email us!

Welcome to Uptime Spotlight, shining Light on Wind Energy’s brightest innovators. This is the Progress Powering Tomorrow.

Allen Hall: Welcome to the Uptime Wind Energy Podcast. I’m your host, Alan Hall in the Queen city of Charlotte, North Carolina. Joel Saxon’s up in Wisconsin, and Yolanda Padron is down in Texas, and this is our yearly Thanksgiving edition. Thanks for joining us and, and on this episode we always like to look back at the year and, uh, say all we’re thankful for.

We’ve had a number of podcast guests on more than 50, I think total by the time we get to conferences and, uh, all the different places we’ve been over the past year. Joel, it does seem like it’s been a really interesting year. We’ve been able to watch. The changes in the wind industry this year via the eyes of [00:01:00]others.

Joel Saxum: Yeah. One of the things that’s really interesting to me when we have guests on is that we have them from a variety of parts of the wind industry sector. So we have ISPs, you know, people running things out in the field, making stuff happen. We’ve got high level, you know, like we have this, some CEOs on from different, uh, people that are really innovative and trying to get floating winged out there.

They have like on, we had choreo generation on, so we, so we have all different spectrums of left, right center, Europe, well us, you name it. Uh, new innovative technology. PhD smart people, uh, doing things. Um, also, it’s just a, it’s just a gamut, right? So we get to learn from everybody who has a different kind of view on what’s 

Allen Hall: happening.

Yolanda, you’ve been in the midst of all this and have gone through a big transition joining us at Weather Guard, lightning Tech, and we’re very thankful for that, for sure. But over the last year, you’ve seen a lot of changes too, ’cause you’ve been in the seat of a blade engineer and a [00:02:00] large operator.

What do you think? 

Yolanda Padron: Uh, something I am really thankful for this year is, and I think a lot of owner operators are, is just knowing what’s coming up. So there was a lot of chaos in the beginning before the big beautiful bill where everyone theorized on a lot of items. Um, and, and you were just kind of stuck in the middle of the court not really knowing which direction to go in, but.

Now we’re all thankful for, for what? It’s brought for the fact that everyone seems to be contributing a lot more, and at least we all know what direction we’re heading in or what the, what the rules are, the of the game are, so we can move accordingly. 

Joel Saxum: Yeah. I got some clarity. Right. I think that, but that happened as well, like when we had the IRA bill come in.

Three, four years ago, it was the same thing. It was like, well, this bill’s here, and then you read through it. I mean, this was a little bit opposite, right? ’cause it was like, oh, these are all [00:03:00] great things. Right? Um, but there wasn’t clarity on it for like, what, six months until they finalized some of the.

Longer on some of the, some of the tax bills and what it would actually mean for the industry and those kind of things. So yeah, sorting this stuff out and what you’ve seen, you’re a hundred percent correct, Yolanda, like all the people we talked to around the industry. Again, specifically in the US because this affects the us but I guess, let me ca caveat that it does affect the global supply chain, not, you know what I mean?

Because it’s, it’s not just the, the US that it affects because of the consumption here. So, but what we have heard and seen from people is clarity, right? And we’re seeing a lot of people starting to shift strategy a little bit. Right now, especially we’re in budgeting season for next year, shifting strategy a little bit to actually get in front of, uh, I know like specifically blades, some people are boosting their blades, budgets, um, to get in front of the damages because now we have a, a new reality of how we need to operate our wind farms.

The offshore 

Allen Hall: shift in the United States has really had a [00:04:00] dramatic impact. On the rest of the world. That was, uh, a little unexpected in the sense that the ramifications of it were broader, uh, just because of so much money going into offshore projects. As soon as they get pulled or canceled, you’ve have billions of dollars on the table at that point.

It really affects or seen it. Ecuador seen it. Anybody involved in offshore wind has been deeply affected. Siemens has seen it. GE has clearly seen it. Uh, that has. In my opinion, probably been the, the biggest impact. Not so much the big beautiful bill thing, but the, uh, ongoing effort to pull permits or to put stoppages on, on offshore wind has really done the industry some harm.

And honestly, Joel, I’m not sure that’s over. I think there’s still probably another year of the chaos there. Uh, whether that will get settled in the courts or where it’s gonna get settled at. I, I still don’t know. [00:05:00] But you’ve seen a big shift in the industry over in Europe too. You see some changes in offshore wind.

It’s not just the US that’s looking at it differently. Yeah. Globally. I think offshore wind 

Joel Saxum: right now is in a reset mode where we, we went, go, go, go, go, go get as much in the water as we can for a while. And this is, I’m, I’m talking globally. Um. And then, and now we’re learning some lessons, right? So there’s some commercial lessons.

There’s a lot of technical lessons that we’re learning about how this industry works, right? The interesting part of that, the, the on or the offshore wind play here in the States. Here’s some numbers for it, right? So. It onshore wind. In the states, there’s about 160 gigawatts, plus or minus of, uh, deployed production out running, running, gunning, working, spinning all day long.

Um, and if you look at the offshore wind play in planned or under development, there’s 66 gigawatts of offshore wind, like it’s sitting there, right? And of that 66, about 12 of them are permitted. Like [00:06:00] are ready to go, but we’re still only at a couple hundred megawatts in the water actually producing.

Right. And, and I do want, say, this is what I wanna say. This is, I, I think that we’re taking a reset, we’re learning some things, but from, from my network, I’m seeing, I got a, a whole stack of pictures yesterday from, um, coastal offshore, Virginia Wind. They’ve, and they looked promising. They looked great. It was like a, it was a marshaling facility.

There was nelle stacked up, there was transition pieces ready to go. Like, so the industry is still moving forward. It’s just we’re we need to reset our feet, um, and, and then take a couple steps forward instead of those, the couple steps back, 

Allen Hall: uh, and the industry itself, and then the employees have been dramatically reduced.

So there’s been a lot of people who we’ve known over the past year, they’ve been impacted by this. That are working in different positions, look or in different industries right now, uh, waiting for the wind industry to kind of settle itself [00:07:00] out to, to figure out what the next steps are That has been.

Horrible, in my opinion. Uh, uh because you’re losing so much talent, obviously. And when you, when you talk to the people in the wind industry, there’s like, oh, there’s a little bit of fat and we can always cut the fat. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But we’re, we’re down to the bone. We’re cutting muscle right now. We’re into some bones, some structure.

That is not what I anticipated to happen. But you do see the management of these companies being. Uh, very aggressive at the minute. Siemens is very aggressive. Vestas is very aggressive about their product line and, and getting availability way up. GE has made huge changes, pretty much closing LM wind power, uh, and uh, some things happening in South Carolina that we probably people don’t know about yet, but there’s so much happening behind these scenes that’s negative and we have to acknowledge it.

It’s not great. I worry about everybody that has been [00:08:00] laid off or is, is knows their job is gonna go away at the end of the year. I struggle with it all the time and I, I think a lot in the wind industry do. But there’s not a lot to do about it besides say, Hey, uh, we’ve gone through this a couple of times.

Wind has never been bountiful for 50 years. It’s bountiful for about 10, then it’s down for about five and it comes back for 10. It’s that ebb and flow, but you just hate to be involved with that. It’s particularly engineering ’cause this industry needs engineering right 

Joel Saxum: now. All of us on this podcast here have been affected by ups and downs in the industry at some point in time in our life, in in major ways.

I guess one of the positive things I have seen that from an operator standpoint, and not as much at the latter half of this year, but at the beginning half of this year is when some of these OEMs were making cuts. There was a lot of people that landed at operators and asset owners that were huge assets to them.

They walked in the door with. Reams of knowledge about how, [00:09:00] you know, how a ge turbine works or how the back office process of this works and they’re able to help these operators. So some of that is good. Um, you get some people spread around in the industry and some knowledge bases spread around. But man, it’s really hard to watch.

Um, your friends, your colleagues, even people that you, that you don’t know personally just pop up on LinkedIn, um, or wherever. And. That they’ve, they’re, they’re looking for work again. 

Allen Hall: Yolanda, how do you look at 2026 then, knowing what’s just happened in 2025? Is there some hope coming? Is there a rainbow in the future?

Yolanda Padron: I think there’s a rainbow in the future. You know, I, I think a lot of the decisions were made months ago before a lot of people realized that the invaluable, how invaluable some of that information in people’s heads is. Uh, particularly, I mean, I know we’ve all talked about the fact that we’re all engineers and so we, we have a bit of bias that way.

Right. But, uh, [00:10:00] just all of the knowledge that comes in from the field, from looking at those assets, from talking to other engineers now, which is what, what we’re seeing more and more of, uh, I think, I mean. So there’s going to have to be innovation, right? Because of how, how lean everybody is and, and there’s going to have to be a lot more collaboration.

So hopefully there, there should be some, some good news coming to people. I think we, we need it a little 

Joel Saxum: bit. You know, to, to, to pair on with what you’re saying there, Yolanda, like, this is a time right now for innovation and collaboration. Collaboration, right. I want to touch on that word because that is something that we, we talk about all the time on the podcast, but you also see the broader industry talking about it since I’ve been in it, right.

Since I think I came in the wind industry, like 2019. Um, you hear a lot of, uh, collaboration, collaboration, collaboration. But those were like, they were [00:11:00] fun, like hot air words, like oh yeah, but then nobody’s really doing anything. Um, but I think that we will start to see more of that. Alan, you and I say this a lot, like at the end of the day, once, once the turbines are in the ground as an asset owner, you guys are not competing anymore.

There’s no competition. You’re competing for, for green space when you’re trying to get the best wind resource. I get that. Um, but I mean, in the central part of the United States, you’re not really competing. There’s a lot of hills out there to stick a turbine on. Uh, but once they’re, once they are spinning.

Everybody’s in the same boat. We just wanna keep these things up. We wanna keep the grid energized, we wanna do well for renewable energy and, um, that collaboration piece, I, I, I would like to see more and more of that in 2026. And I know from, from our chairs here, we will continue to push on that as well.

Yolanda Padron: Yeah. And just so many different operators, I mean sure they can see themselves as, as being one against the other. Right. But. When you talk [00:12:00] to these people and it, I think people in the past, they’ve made the, the mistake of just being a little bit siloed. And so if you’re just looking at your assets and you’re just looking at what your OEM is telling you of, oh, these problems are new and unique to you, which I’m sure a lot of people hearing us have heard that.

You can stay just kind of in that zone of, oh no, I, I have this big problem that there’s no other way to solve it except for what some people are telling me or not telling me, and I’m just going to have to pay so much money to get it done and take the losses from generation. Uh, but there’s so many people in the industry that have a hundred percent seen the issues you’ve seen.

Right. So it’s, it’s really, really important to just talk to these people, you know? I mean, just. Just have a, a simple conversation. And I think some of the issue might be that some people don’t know [00:13:00] how to get that conversation started, right? And so just, just reach out to people, someone in the same position as you go to Wilma, you know, just talk to the person next to you.

Joel Saxum: I mean, like I said about visibility, like we’re here too. Like the, the three of us are sitting here. We’ve got our. We’re always monitoring LinkedIn and our emails like if you, if you have a problem, we, we had one this morning where I, Alan, you got a message from someone, I got a message from someone that was like, Hey, we’ve got this root bolt issue.

Can you help us with it? We’re like, Hey, we know two companies that can, let’s just connect them up and, and make that conversation happen. So we’re happy to do the same thing. Um, if, if you have an issue, we have a, a 

Allen Hall: broad reach and use us as Joel has mentioned a thousand times on the podcast. If you don’t know where a technology lies or where a person is that you need to reach out to, you need to go to the Uptime podcast.

You can search it on YouTube and probably get an answer, or just reach us on LinkedIn. We’re all willing [00:14:00] to give you advice or help or get you in the right direction. We’ve done it all year and we’ve done it for years. Not everybody takes us up on that opportunity. It’s free. We’re just trying to make this world just a tiny bit better.

Yolanda Padron: No one has the time or the money right now to reinvent the wheel, right? So I mean, it just doesn’t make sense to not collaborate. 

Allen Hall: I think we should discuss what will happen to all the people that have left wind this past year willingly or unwillingly. And what that means for the industry, in my opinion.

Now there is more knowledge than ever walking on the streets and probably doesn’t have an NDA to tie them up. ’cause it’s been long enough that the industry hasn’t tapped into, the operators have not grabbed hold of the people who designed the blade that, uh, manufactured the blade that looked at. The LEP solutions that looked at all the bearings and all the different gear boxes that they evaluated and were involved in the testing of those [00:15:00] things.

Those people are available right now and a little bit of LinkedIn shopping would give you access to, uh, really invaluable wealth of information that will make your operations work better, and you may have to be willing to pay for it a little bit. But to tap into it would save you months and months and months of time and effort and, uh, limit having to add to your engineering staff because they will work as consultants.

It does seem like there’s an opportunity that maybe the operators haven’t really thought about all that much because they haven’t seen too much of it happening yet. Occasionally see the, the wise old operators being smart about this, they’ve been through these loops before and are taking advantage of it.

Don’t you see? That’s like 2026 is is is the year of the consultant. I a hundred percent 

Joel Saxum: agree with you, Alan. Um, I saw a TEDx talk oh, years ago actually now. Uh, but it was about the, what the future of worker looks like, the future of [00:16:00] work and the future of work at that time for those people giving that TEDx talk was workers on tap.

Basically consultants, right? Because you have subject matter experts that are really good at this one thing, and instead of just being that one thing good for just this one company, they’re pulling back and going, I can do this, this, this, and this for all these companies. So we have, um, we have a lot of those in the network and we’re starting to see more and more of them pop up.

Um, at the same time, I think I’ve seen a couple of groups of them pop up where, uh, you didn’t have. When I look at ISPs, um, I’m always kind of like, oh man, they could do this a little bit better. They could do this a little bit better. And I, I recently heard of an ISP popping up that was a bunch of these like consultant types that got together and we’re like, you know what?

We have all this knowledge of all these things. Why not make this a, a company that we can all benefit from? Um, and we can change the way some things are done in the wind industry and do it a little bit better, uh, a little bit more efficiently. 

Allen Hall: Does that change the way we think about technicians also. [00:17:00] We had the Danish Wind Power Academy on the podcast a couple of months ago talking about training and specific training for technicians and engineers for that matter on the turbines that are at their sites and how much productivity gain they’re getting from that.

And we’ve recently talked about how do I get a 10% improvement? Where does that 10% lie? Where is that? And a lot of times we get offered the 1%, the half a percent improvement, the 10% lies in the people. If you know who to ask and you get your people spooled upright, you can make multiple percentage point changes in your operation, which improves your revenue.

But I think that’s been left on the table for a long time because we’ve been in build, build, build. And now that we’re into operate, operate, operate. Do you see that shift happening? Do you see O operators starting to think about that a little bit that maybe I should train up my technicians on this?

Intercon turbine 

Joel Saxum: that they’re not familiar with. In my [00:18:00] opinion, I think that’s gonna be a 2027 reality. Because we’re seeing this, your, your right now what? You know we have this cliff coming where we’re gonna see in, in the face of the current regulations in the US where you’re gonna see the. Development kind of slow, big time.

And when that happens, then you can see the focus start to switch onto the operating assets. So I don’t think that’s a 26 thing, I think that’s a 27 thing. But the smart operators, I believe would be trying to take some of that, take control of some of that stuff. Right. Well we see this with the people that we know that do things well.

Uh, the CRS team at EDF with their third party services and sala, Ken Lee, Yale, Matta, and those guys over there. They’re doing a, I don’t wanna lose any other names here, Trevor Engel. Like, I wanna make sure I get a Tyler. They’re all superstars, they’re fantastic. But what they’re doing is, is is they’re taking, they’re seeing what the future looks like and they’re taking control.

I think you’ll see, you’ll, you’ll see an optimization. Um, companies that are investing in their technicians to train [00:19:00] them are going to start getting a lion’s share of the work, because this time of, oh, warm bodies, I think is, is they’re still gonna be there, right? But I think that that’s gonna hopefully become less and less.

Allen Hall: Yolanda, I want to focus on the OEM in 2025, late 2025, and moving into 2026 and how they deal with the developers. Are you thinking that they’re going to basically keep the same model where a lot of developers are, uh, picking up the full service agreements or not being offered a turbine without a full service agreement?

Will that continue or do you see operators realize that they probably don’t need the OEM and the historical model has been OEMs manufacture products and provide manuals in the operations people and developers read the manuals and run the turbine and only call over to the OEM when they need really severe help.

Which way are we gonna go? 

Yolanda Padron: I think on the short term, it’ll still be very FSA focused, in my opinion, [00:20:00] mainly because a lot of these operators didn’t necessarily build out their teams, or didn’t have the, the business case wasn’t there, the business model wasn’t there. Right. To build out their internal teams to be able to, to do the maintenance on these wind turbines as much as an OEM does.

Uh. However, I do think that now, as opposed to 10 years ago when some of these contracts started, they have noticed that there’s, there’s so many big things that the OEN missed or, or just, you know, worked around, uh, that really has affected the lifetime of some of these blades, some of these turbines. So I think the shift is definitely happening.

Uh, you mentioned it with EDF NextEra, how, how they’re at a perfect spot to already be there. Uh, but I think at least in the US for some of these operators that are a lot [00:21:00] more FSA focused, the shift might take a couple of years, but it’s, it surely seems to be moving in that direction. 

Joel Saxum: So here’s a question for you, Ilana, on that, on that same line of thinking.

If we, regulation wise, are looking to see a slow down in development, that would mean to me that the OEMs are gonna be clamoring for sales over the next few years. Does that give more power to the operators that are actually gonna be buying turbines in their TSA negotiations? 

Yolanda Padron: I think it should, right. I mean, the.

If they, if they still want to continue developing some of these, it and everyone is fighting, you know, all of these big OEMs are fighting for the same contracts. There’s, there’s a lot more kind of purchase power there from, from the operators to be able [00:22:00] to, to, you know, negotiate some of these deals better.

Stay away from the cookie cutter. TSA. That the OEMs might supply that are very, very shifted towards the OEM mindset. 

Joel Saxum: You, you’re, you’re spot on there. And if I was a developer right now, I’d be watching quarterly reports and 10 k filings and stuff at these operators to make sure, or to see when to pounce on a, on a, a turbine order, because I would wait to see when in, in the past it’s been like, Hey, if we’re, it doesn’t matter who you are, OEM, it has been like we’re at capacity and we have.

Demand coming in. So we can pick and choose. Like if you don’t buy these turbines on our contract, we’ll just go to the next guy in line. They’ll buy ’em. But now if the freeboard between manufacturing and demand starts to keep having a larger delta, well then the operators will be able to go, well, if you don’t sell it to me, you’re not, there isn’t another guy behind me.

So now you have to bend to what I want. And all the [00:23:00] lessons that I’ve learned in my TSA negotiations over the last 20 years. 

Yolanda Padron: Something relating to Alan’s point earlier, something that I think would be really, really interesting to see would be some of these developers and EPC teams looking towards some of those contract external contractor consultants that have been in the field that know exactly where the issues lie.

To be able to turn that information into something valuable for an operating project that. Now we know has to operate as long as possible, 

Allen Hall: right? Without repower, I think two things need to happen simultaneously, and we will see if they’ll play out this way. OEMs need to focus on the quality of the product being delivered, and that will sustain a 20 year lifetime with minimal maintenance.

Operators need to be more informed about how a turbine actually operates and the details of that technology so they can manage it themselves. Those two things. Are [00:24:00] almost inevitable in every industry. You see the same thing play out. There’s only two airplane companies, right? There’s Boeing and Airbus.

They’re in the automobile world. There’s, it gets fewer and fewer every year until there’s a new technology leap. Wind is not gonna be any different, and I hope that happens. OEMs can make a really quality product. The question is, they’ve been so busy developing. The next turbine, the next turbine, the next turbine.

That have they lost the magic of making a very, very reliable turbine? They’ll tell you, no, we know how to do it. Uh, but as Rosemary has pointed out numerous times, when you lose all your engineering talent, it gets hard to make that turbine very robust and resilient. That’s gonna be the challenge. And if the OEMs are focused on.

TSAs it should be, but the full service agreements and taking care of that and managing all the people that are involved with that, it just sucks the life out of the OEMs, I think, in terms of offering the next great product. [00:25:00]Someone showed me the next GE 

Joel Saxum: one five. Oh, I would love to see it. Do you believe that?

Okay, so I, we’ll shift gears from oe, uh, wind turbine OEMs to blade manufacturers. LM closing down shops, losing jobs, uh, TPI bankruptcy, uh, 99% of their market cap eroding in a year is there and, and, and the want for higher quality, better blades that are gonna last. Is there space, do you think there’s space for a, a blade manufacturer to come out of nowhere, or is there just someone’s gonna have to scoop some of these factories up and and optimize them, or what do you think the future looks like for blade 

Allen Hall: manufacturers?

The future is gonna be vertically integrated, and you see it in different industries at the moment where they’re bringing in technology or manufacturing that would have typically been outsourced in the two thousands. They’re bringing it back underneath their roofs. They’re buying those companies that were vendors to them for years.

The reason they’re doing that is they [00:26:00] can remove all the operational overhead. And minimize their cost to manufacture that product. But at the same time, they can have really direct oversight of the quality. And as we have seen in other industries, when you outsource a critical component, be it gear, boxes, bearings, blades, fall into that category, those are the critical items for any wind turbine.

When you outsource those items and rely upon, uh, uh, companies that you don’t have direct control over, or not watching day to day, it can go awry. Management knows it, and at some point they’re willing to accept that risk. They know that the cost is right. I gotta build this, uh, turbine. I know I’m working three generations ahead, so it’s okay, I’ll, I’ll live with this for the time being, but at some point, all the staff in the OEMs needs to know what the quality component is.

Is it being delivered on time? Do I have issues out in the field with it? Do I keep this supply chain? Do I, and do I build this in house blades? [00:27:00] I think eventually. Like they were years ago, were built in-house. Uh, but as they grew too quickly, I think everybody will agree to that 

Joel Saxum: capacity. Yeah, 

Allen Hall: right. They started grabbing other factories that they didn’t know a lot about, but it gave them capacity and ability able to make sales.

Now they’re living with the repercussions of that. I think Siemens is the obvious one, but they’re not the only one. GE has lived through something very similar, so, uh, vertical integration is going to be the future. Before we wrap the episode, we should talk about what we’re thankful for for this year, 2025.

So much has happened. We were in Australia in February, weather guard moved in April to North Carolina. We moved houses and people, and the whole organization moved from Massachusetts and North Carolina. Joel got married. Yolanda got married. We’ve been all over the world, honestly. Uh, we’ve traveled a great deal and we’re thankful for everybody that we’ve met this year, and that’s one of the pleasures of doing this podcast is I just [00:28:00] get to meet new people that are very interesting, uh, and, uh.

Talk, like, what’s going on? What are you thinking? What’s happening? It just feels like we’re all connected in this weird way via this podcast, and I, I, I’m really thankful for that and my always were saying Thanks. I will go through my list. I’m thankful for my mom. I’m thankful for my wife Valerie, who pretty much runs Weather Guard, lightning Tech, and Claire, who is my daughter who does the podcast and has been the producer, she graduated this year from Boston College.

With honors that happened this year. So I’m very thankful that she was able to do that. And my son Adam, who’s earning his doctorate degree out in San Diego, always thankful for him ’cause he’s a tremendous help to us. And on the engineering side, I’m thankful to everybody we have with us this year. We brought Yolanda on, so we’re obviously thankful that, uh, she was able to join us.

Of course, Joel Joel’s been here a couple of years now and helping us on sales and talking to everybody [00:29:00] in the world. We’re super thankful for Joel and one of the people we don’t tell behind the who’s behind the scenes on our side is our, our, uh, manufacturing person, Tammy, um, and Leslie. They have done a tremendous job for us over the years.

They don’t get a lot of accolades on the podcast, but people who receive our strike tape product, they have touched. Tammy and Leslie have touched, uh, Tammy moved down with us to North Carolina and we’re extremely grateful that she was able to do that. Another person behind the scenes for us is Diane stressing.

She does her uptime tech news newsletter. So the high quality content doesn’t come from me, it comes from Diane ’cause she can write and she’s an excellent newsletter writer. She helps with a ton of our content. She’s behind the scenes and there’s a lot of people at, at, uh, weather, car Lightning Tech that are kind of behind the scenes.

You don’t get to see all the time, but when you do get an email about uptime, tech news is coming from Diane. So we’re super grateful for her. We’ve been blessed this year. We [00:30:00] really have. We’ve brought on a lot of new friends and, uh, podcast has grown. Everything has done well this year, so we’re super happy.

Joel, what are you thankful for? 

Joel Saxum: I would start it the same way. Uh, my, my new. Sorry, my new wife as of last May, Kayla, she is the, the glue that holds me together, uh, in our household together, in this kind of crazy world that we’re in, of the ups and downs and the travels and the moving and grooving. Um, she keeps, she keeps me grounded.

She keeps our family grounded. So, um, uh, I, I don’t think I can thank her enough. Uh, and you know, with that being said, we are always traveling, right? We’re, we’re here, we’re there. We’re. All around the world, and I am thankful for that. Um, I’m thankful for the people that we meet while we get to travel, the cultures and the, the experiences and the people that want to share with us and the knowledge gained from, uh, the conversations, whether it be in a conference room or over a beer.[00:31:00]

Um, uh, the, the people that we have, uh, grown into this uptime network and, um, I know like my personal network from the past and of course everybody that will come in the future. I think that’s where, you know, the, the, if you know me, you know that I’m very much an extrovert, uh, talking with people and, and getting those conversations gives me energy.

Um, and I like to give that back as much as I can. So the, all of the people that I’ve run into over the, over the past year that have allowed me to monologue at them. Thank you. Sorry. Apologies. Um, but, uh, yeah, I mean, it’s, it’s hard to. I think this, this is a, this is always why Thanksgiving is like a six hour long thing in the United States, eight hour long thing.

You have dinner at three and you hang out with your friends and family until 10, 11:00 PM because it gives you time to reflect on, um, the things that are awesome in life. Right? And we get bogged down sometimes in our, you know, in the United States. We are [00:32:00] work, work, work, work works. First kind of society.

It’s the culture here. So we get bogged down sometimes in the, you know, we’re in the wind industry right now and it’s not always. Um, you know, roses and sunshine, uh, but ha having those other people around that are kind of like in the trenches with you, that’s really one thing I’m thankful for. ’cause it, it’s, it’s bright spots, right?

I love getting the random phone calls throughout the day of someone sharing a piece of information or just asking how you’re doing or connecting like that. So, um, that, that would be the, the thing I’m most thankful for, and it puts it into perspective here, to a me up home in Wisconsin, or my, my not home.

Home is Austin, but my original hometown of northern Wisconsin, and I’ve got to see. Quite a few of my, my high school buddies are, yeah, elementary school buddies even for that matter over the last couple weeks. And, um, that really always brings me back to, to a bit of grounding and puts, puts life in perspective.

So, uh, I’m really appreciative for that as well. Yolanda, newly married as well, and welcome to the club. 

Yolanda Padron: Thank [00:33:00] you. Yeah, I’m really, really thankful for, for Manuel, my husband, uh, really. Really happy for our new little family. Uh, really thankful for my sisters, Yvonne and Carla and my parents. Um, my friends who I like to think of as my chosen family, especially, you know, here in Austin and then, and in El Paso.

Uh, really, really thankful for, for the extended family and for, for weather card for, for this lovely opportunity to just. Learned so much. I know it’s only been almost two months, but I’ve, I’ve just learned so much of just talking to everybody in the industry and learning so much about what’s going on everywhere and just getting this, this whole new outlook on, on what the future holds and, and what exactly has happened and technology wise, and I’m thankful for [00:34:00] this year and how.

How exciting everything’s going to be. So, yeah, thankful for you guys. 

Allen Hall: And we don’t wanna forget Rosemary and Phil, uh, they’ve been a big part of 2025. They’ve worked really hard behind the scenes and, uh, I appreciate everything they’ve done for the podcast and everything they’re doing for. Us as a company and us as people.

So big shout out to Rosemary and Phil. So that’s our Thanksgiving episode. Appreciate everybody that’s joined us and has enjoyed the podcast in 2025 and will continue to in 2026. The years coming to an end. I know the Christmas holidays are upon us. I hope everybody enjoys themselves. Spend a little bit of time with your family.

And with your coworkers and take a little bit of time. It’s been a pretty rough year. You’re gonna need it. And that wraps up another episode of the Uptime Winner Energy podcast, and we appreciate you joining us here today. If anything has triggered an idea or a question. As we’ve mentioned, reach out to us on LinkedIn.

That’s the easiest way to get ahold of [00:35:00] us and don’t ever forget to subscribe. So click that little subscribe button so you don’t miss any of the Future Uptime podcast episodes, and we’ll catch you here next week on the Uptime Wind Energy Podcast.

Allen, Joel, Rosemary, and Yolanda discuss Modvion’s €39M grant for wooden wind turbine towers, leading to a discussion about funding vs. engineering readiness in the wind industry. Plus they highlight Veolia’s blade recycling advances in PES Wind Magazine. And the Weather Guard team announces they’ll be in Edinburgh for the ORE Catapult Offshore Wind Supply Chain Spotlight!

Register for Wind Energy O&M Australia 2026!
Learn more about CICNDT!

Sign up now for Uptime Tech News, our weekly email update on all things wind technology. This episode is sponsored by Weather Guard Lightning Tech. Learn more about Weather Guard’s StrikeTape Wind Turbine LPS retrofit. Follow the show on Facebook, YouTube, Twitter, Linkedin and visit Weather Guard on the web. And subscribe to Rosemary Barnes’ YouTube channel here. Have a question we can answer on the show? Email us!

Allen Hall: A portion of the Weather Guard team. We’re headed to Scotland for the ORE Catapult Offshore Wind Supply Chain Spotlight, which is gonna happen on December 11th in Edinburgh. We’re gonna attend that and it’s gonna be a, a number of great offshore companies there. We’re hoping to interview a couple of them while we’re there.

But Joel, this is a real opportunity, uh, for offshore companies in the UK to showcase what they can do and they can get on the Uptime Wind Energy Podcast. 

Joel Saxum: Of course. So we’re flying over the sixth and seventh there over the weekend. And we will be, uh, in Edinburgh, uh, on the eighth. So Monday morning through Thursday.

Thursday and Thursday is the or E Catapult event. And yeah, we’re excited to see some of the companies that are gonna be there, interview some of them, get the, the picture, uh, of the uk um, supply chain, right? Because I think it’s a really cool event that they’re doing. I’d love to see other countries do that.

I’d love to see the US do that. Um. Just say like, Hey, this is, these are the companies, the up and [00:01:00] comers and the, the people that are changing the game and, and kinda give them a platform to speak on. So we’re excited to do that. It’s gonna be a one day event. Um, love to see some people join us, but the other side of that thing is we’re gonna be over in Scotland.

So we’re, well, we’ve got a couple meetings in Glasgow, a couple meetings in Borough. So if you are around the area, um, of course we’re linking up people on the uptime network, but, uh. If you’re around the area and you want to, you wanna chat anything wind, or maybe you got lightning protection problems, get ahold of us.

’cause we’ll be over there and, uh, happy to drop in and uh, share coffee with you. 

Allen Hall: It’s just part of Weather Guards and the Uptime Wind Energy Podcast outreach to the world. So we’re gonna be in Scotland for an entire week. We’re heading down to Melbourne, Australia for probably a couple of weeks while we’re down that way.

And we will be somewhere near you over the next year probably. It’s a really good, uh, free service that we provide, is we want to highlight those businesses and those new technology ideas that need a little bit of exposure to grow. And that’s what the Uptime podcast is here to do. So join us [00:02:00] and if you want to reach out to us, you can reach us via LinkedIn, Allen Hall, Joel Saxon.

We’ll respond to you and hopefully we can meet you in 

Speaker 3: Edinburgh. You’re listening to the Uptime Wind Energy Podcast, brought to you by build turbines.com. Learn, train, and be a part of the Clean Energy Revolution. Visit build turbines.com today. Now here’s your hosts, Alan Hall, Joel Saxon, Phil Totaro, and Rosemary Barnes.

Allen Hall: Welcome to the Uptime Wind Energy Podcast. I’m your host, Alan Hall in the Queen city of Charlotte, North Carolina. Soon, the home of Maersk North America, I think we’re going to find out. And also the new Home of Scout, if you haven’t seen the little, what was formerly a MC little vehicle that’s gonna be made, well engineered in Charlotte and then built in South Carolina.

So we’re looking forward to that. And with me as Yolanda Pone in Texas. Joel Saxons up in the great state of Wisconsin and Rosemary [00:03:00] Barnes is back in Australia. And there’s plenty of things to talk about this week, and I, I think our pre-recording discussion has centered on wooden wind turbines. And if everybody’s been following, um, mod Vion, they have received a 39.1 million Euro grant and they are making of all things.

Wooden wind towers. So, uh, up in Sweden, there’s plenty of wood to make towers out of, out of it. And it’s a laminated process. And if, if you’ve looked online, I encourage everybody to go look online. It’s kind of an interesting technology they have where they’re layering wood together to build these towers sections.

And so instead of using steel or other materials, concrete, you can make them outta wood. Uh, so the European Union is backing this, and as Joel has pointed out. This is not the only money they have received to develop this technology. 

Joel Saxum: Yeah. Back in 2020, they received a six [00:04:00] and a half million euro. Grant as well.

And then they had some investment money come in, um, and it was in Swedish Knox. Okay. Or of course they’re in Sweden, so Makes sense. But that was a, a convertible note around 11, 12 million, uh, euros as well. So when you add this 39 million Euro grant on, you’re looking at about 55, 50 7 million euros in funding over the last five or six years for this company.

Allen Hall: How does the European Union decide where to invest? These innovation funds at, 

Rosemary Barnes: you know, it’s interesting ’cause I visited MO when I was in Sweden a few months ago. I actually have a video, uh, about to come out hopefully next week. Um, about, yeah, I got a tour of their factory and, uh, interviewed one of their engineers who’s been with them like the whole time.

Um, and I visited them just a few days after I visited C 12. I made a video about that as well. That’s a floating vertical axis wind turbine. C 12, just like four days after I visited them, they, um, received the [00:05:00] news that they had been awarded a similarly sized European grant. So, yeah, in the tens of millions, I can’t remember the exact number.

And I was thinking, what would I do if I got, you know, 40 million euros, which is like nearly 80 million, I think Australian dollars. Like I could really come up with something major and develop it in that time. It’s not, they haven’t been given the money to come up with the right solution, right? They’ve been given the money for the solution that they already have.

And I think that it’s really interesting that these European grants, it’s set up like that where they’re supporting, uh, assume that they’ve got a certain technology readiness level that you have to be at before that they will support you. And that kind of means that you’re locked in to a solution by the time that you’re at that point, right?

Rewards only that kind of model where you have a charismatic person with a vision that they just pursue to the end. It does not reward getting the smart people who could find solutions to the real problems. It [00:06:00] doesn’t reward that because you, no one’s getting heaps of money, like $10 million early on to be like, here’s a problem, now find a solution and we’re going to.

Fund that through the 10 things that you try that don’t end up working, no one is funding that, right? So all of that has to be done on the basis of your own pockets or the ability of your charisma to convince other people to support it. And I just think that it’s probably like. Not the right way to spend your, you know, if you’ve got like $500 million to spend to get the next big thing in wind energy, you shouldn’t be picking a bunch of companies that are tier L five.

You should be getting the smartest people and giving them money to found a company and um, yeah, come up with solutions that way. 

Joel Saxum: Is it wooden? Wind turbine tower worth it. 

Rosemary Barnes: And ev everyone will have to have to watch my video. ’cause I asked, I asked quite in depth questions ’cause I went into it very, very skeptical thinking that this was a su sustainability play.

And I’ve got two issues with that. Like, first of all, wind turbine tower is [00:07:00] not that unsustainable. I mean, wind turbines on average are paying back the energy that it took to make them in, you know, six months or so. But what was interesting is, you know, wood is a, a composite material, right? It’s got the, um.

Fibers, cellulose fibers in a malignant matrix. It’s, it’s, it’s a composite material, just like fiberglass is. Why don’t we make fiberglass towers? I mean, it’s partly ’cause of the cost and it’s partly ’cause joining them is quite tricky as well. Um, and yeah, those are probably the, the main two things, but I’ve actually done a bit of work into it.

If you could make a fiberglass tower, you could go. Way, way taller than you can with, with a steel tower, with, you know, transport constraints and whatever. So the wooden tower actually has a lot of the advantages that you would find if you had, were able to make a fiberglass tower. So they are expecting to be able to go taller, um, with, you know, they’re as constrained by transport because, you know, the fibers are all running this way.

It’s fine to cut it, um, like longitudinally, um, slice it into pieces and join the all site. Doesn’t, um, [00:08:00] reduce the, the. The strength really. So there from that point of view, there’s something to it. If you can go taller, make it easier to go taller with towers, then that’s a real problem that needs a solution.

There are other solutions. There’s like NARA Lift, you know the one just got bought by Ford Spanish company where they build a turbine on like a tiny tower and then slot pieces in underneath it to come up. That’s another great solution. Um, people are also looking at 3D printing concrete towers and thing, things like that.

So it’s not like this wooden tower is the only way that we’re gonna be able to do that, but it’s a real problem with a plausible solution to it. So. I think that they’re ahead of many, many, many, many of this kind of company. Just just from that, that at least they’re solving a real problem.

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Is it the fact that founders in that sense can speak about problems and tell a story, which it feels like if you watch Shark Tank, this is sort of the Shark Tank wind energy connection. I always think it when you watch Shark Tank. Is someone who gets money there or what’s the equivalent? In the UK it’s called Dragon’s Den.

There’s [00:10:00] a a certain personality type. 

Rosemary Barnes: How often am, am I saying? Are we all saying what we’ve got here is a solution looking for a problem? Like there’s a real disconnect between. Engineering a good solution and, um, that, that will work in the field versus fake it till you make it to attract investor money.

I think it’s like this, this Silicon Valley like model where with software you kind of can fake it till you make it and it, you know, like update quickly, learn quickly. But with a hardware product as big as a wind turbine. You can’t, like if the engineering isn’t right, the product will never succeed. You can’t bluff your way through that.

Um, the projects that are done, like with the right engineering can’t attract enough. Funds. So they, they fail before they ever prove it. But the ones that attract enough funds are doing it because they’re like, uh, designing for investors rather than to build a successful project. And so it’s like you’ve got these two alternatives, both of which are guaranteed to fail.[00:11:00]

Um, I think that that’s the, like the biggest problem for how hard it is to get like legitimate innovation in energy 

Yolanda Padron: up. I feel like it’s almost like a, it should be a training. For engineers in school to be able to at least pretend like you can not care about the details as much, you know, for 20 minutes in the day or something.

’cause imagine how successful some of these projects could potentially be if you were at least for a meeting like par with. Those people who just have that personality type. 

Allen Hall: Not all engineers are gonna be founders of company and not all founders of company are gonna be engineers. And that has an influence on what the little tiny pool of people that can be able to do this where you’ve taken a very complicated problem, come up with a solution and being able to sell it or market it, which is even harder.

You gotta market before you can sell it. [00:12:00] The engineering. Type person tends to wanna focus on the details, the of the product, not on the problem that someone is struggling with and what that means to that person. Here’s, I think where that line gets crossed, and you can do both, is that, that the engineers that are just.

Focused, super focused on learn, learn, learn, learn, knowing what you do not have and going to get those skill sets because you don’t have to be the world’s best engineer, nor do you have to be the world’s best marketer, but you have to know enough to be dangerous and you as an engineer. Training I had in school was keep.

Pounding, keep trying to learn more. And I, I feel like Rosemary’s in the same vein, right? So she’s always trying to learn more and that’s why she has her engineering with Rosie, uh, YouTube channel is because she’s constantly trying to pick up new things. But you also look at Rosemary. Oh, Rosemary, I don’t mind if I use you [00:13:00] as an example here, but you didn’t come out of, uh, Australian Elementary School, whatever that is, being a a, a really good speaker, like that’s something you’ve learned over time.

You’ve been able to. Work in a very large company, you now, you’re in a very small company, the one that you own, and you’ve had to bridge that. And that means you have to know what the budgets are, what the money, where this money’s coming from. You have to sell to large corporations. You have to learn all those skills.

That takes time, and each one of those skills you learn is extremely painful. So you have to have the resilience to say, you’re shooting arrows at me all the time. I’m not dead yet. I’m gonna keep moving forward because I could, I can see a way that I can make a business that produces a revenue that I can pay the mortgage with.

Joel Saxum: That’s what it takes. Another, another side of this is, is if you’re trying to, to get, you’re getting to the point where you’re building a team out, right? I think it’s very [00:14:00] important for a founder to under, to understand their limitations at certain points in time. Because if you build a company and you’re just like, I like engineers, so I’m gonna build a company with five engineers and us six are gonna make something happen that may not be the best, you know, the best strategy if you’re gonna want like.

I did, we used to do this thing, um, in a, in a company that I was a partner in where we had those, it’s a, basically like a spider graph, right? And you take, you answer all these questions and it ranks you on points of like, where you are for problem solving and where you are for the, you know, the big picture where you are for details.

And then it overlays them all. So you look at your management team, you overlay ’em, what you wanna see is a perfect circle that you’ve filled every one of these. Areas, these silos with skills on your management team or on your execution team, or on your project team or whatever it may be. You can’t really 

Allen Hall: have an ego in a sense.

The thing about starting a company is everybody is shooting Arrow, is that you, when you first go to a customer [00:15:00] that first time, they are gonna blow holes in you because you haven’t thought of all these different things that they consider to be very important. And you come out of it like, boy, yeah, yeah, I was not ready for that.

Yes, 

Rosemary Barnes: but you’ve gotta want that. See that not as an insult to your ego, but as information that you need to, to grow. I think. ’cause I work a lot with startups as well as having one of my own. Um, and one thing that I do is I really, really early on screen them to figure out what kind of founder there are.

’cause there’s, there’s two kinds. There’s the one that wants to develop a significant product that will be successful in the world. And then there’s other ones who just love their idea and want to keep on working on it forever. And that second type, they don’t, they don’t want to learn anything wrong with their product.

They don’t want to know about, um. You know, showstoppers because that’s gonna prevent them from doing what they love, which is working on this idea. So I only wanna work with the, the first kind, who would see a, being informed about a [00:16:00] showstopper for their project. They would see that as a real win. So that’s my always, my philosophy is just, uh, just gonna break it.

What, whatever your idea is, I’m gonna do whatever I can to break it. Whether that’s physically or whether that’s commercially break the business case. You just throw everything you can at it intentionally. And with my own products too. You. Do everything you can to make it a failure. ’cause that’s how you learn how to make something that cannot fail, you know?

And that’s what you need to succeed. It’s not enough to have an idea that, you know, like, like a lot of times with wind energy, you come up with something that might make be better, right? Than the status quo. So let’s think about, you know, um. Wind turbine. They’ve all got three blades. They all have a, um, the upwind facing rotor.

You know, they’re, they’re very, very similar. There are all sorts of ideas that could be better. Right? That could be a better way to do it. You know, there’s different ways to make the, the blade maybe out of sailcloth instead of fiberglass. You can have two blades. Um, you can have a [00:17:00] downwind rotor. You can, like any, all of these ideas have been tried before, but being a little bit better is, is not.

It’s not close, it’s not close to being enough like it is so far from, from being enough. It has to be so good that it can’t fail. That is the only way for you to overcome the, um, the gap that you have to what the status quo is. And so many people like, but my, you know, but my design is 1% more efficient.

People could, you know, get all this amount extra. They, they’re not, that is not enough to get you over that massive hump between where you are now with an idea. What it would take to get people buying enough of it that it will ever reach its potential. That’s what people don’t see. 

Allen Hall: That’s exactly circling back what we’re talking about.

The idea has to be a big improvement. Whatever it does. The wheel was a big improvement. The pencil was a big improvement. Paper was a big improvement. [00:18:00] Sliced bread, huge improvement. It just made your life easier. It has to be something that makes. Life easier, not just a little bit. And Rosemary is 100% right about this.

It has to be a lot. So when, when I hear people in wind that are working in technology talk about a quarter percent, a half a percent, say 2%, that’s usually not enough to get somebody to react to it. It has to be a bigger number. Now, the two percents of the world. Incrementally, we will make the world better.

Rosemary Barnes: It, it’s fine if it’s a, if it’s a small technology that will just fit in with a status quo without making anyone’s life harder than 2% is amazing. If it requires anyone to do anything different, then it is not close to enough. 

Allen Hall: Don’t miss the UK Offshore Wind Supply Chain Spotlight 2025 in Edinburg on December 11th.

Over 550 delegates and 100 exhibitors will be at this game changing event. Connect with decision makers. Share your market ready innovations and secure the partnerships to accelerate your [00:19:00] growth. Register now and take your place at the center of the UK’s offshore Wind future. Just visit supply chain spotlight.co.uk and register today.

So we have somebody on the other side of the table, which is Yolanda, who sees all the crazy people come up to ’em. If you’re sitting across the table from someone who wants to sell you a product, I, I can’t even think of what. To be selling you, honestly. ’cause there’s not a lot of, um, maybe, maybe they’re selling aerodynamic improvements.

Maybe they’re selling some blade whizzbang thing or CMS system. Maybe CMS system. Can you suss that out? Can you just tell that this person is not locked in on reality? It’s, does that show up in a meeting? 

Yolanda Padron: Well, initially, a lot of times some people just won’t. They don’t care exactly what your problem is or what the, you know, a problem might be big, but it might [00:20:00] not have as big an impact on generation as the spend to fix it would be.

Or a lot of times the, the problem that you may be seeing is just. You know, it, it’s a risk that you’ll, you’ll take because of the, the cost of the solution. I mean, if, if you have, if I have $2,000 budgeted to fix or deal with an issue and you’re offering me a solution for $45,000, I just can’t take it.

You know? I mean, as great as you might sound and as much as you believe in your project, uh, on your product, you just can’t take it. And I think there’s some people who. Come to the table really caring about what the issue is and finding a solution together for the sake of the industry, as was weather guard and is.

Uh, but there is also [00:21:00] just some, some teams who just really, really just want their product, who will come to an engineer and won’t even bring an engineer to the table, who will just not even care about testing. Their, their product in a, their an accredited facility. And we’ll say, I mean, I had people come to me in a sales pitch and then when I asked them for testing results, they would say, well, will you fund this testing?

It’s like, no, I. I, I won’t, you’re, you’re selling me the product. Like I don’t, 

Rosemary Barnes: I don’t think you understand. I saw so many companies that that was their biggest failure. They couldn’t get real world testing and that, that’s why I know that weather guard and paddle load are like poised for at least once you have a good idea, you’re gonna be able to develop it.

Because the testing is, the testing capability is built in and I definitely could get people to pay to test. [00:22:00] A product that I developed because I know exactly what their problem is. I know exactly how much it’s worth to them, and they know that I understand it better than than them even. So I think people don’t, um, like it’s a very wind specific thing, but it is so hard if you just come up with an idea and you don’t know anybody that, um, managers wind farms.

It’s so hard to convince someone to put something like even to just allow you to put it on for free. That’s a really, really hard sell. 

Allen Hall: So what is the advice for. Small businesses that want to be large businesses that are, have wind products that they’re offering today, what are the steps they need to take to make it a reality?

Rosemary Barnes: They need to understand the, the problem really well, or the problem that they’re. Potential customers had and they also needed to understand the other pain points in that person’s life. Because a lot of times I’ve seen people get so, um, kind of worked up that, yeah, they’ve got a business case on [00:23:00] paper that, you know, the company should, in theory, make way more money from having this product.

They’re not having it, but people don’t have enough time. Um, it has to be. Solving, either solving a problem that is taking up their time already, and you will immediately take up less of their time with when your solution is, when they even start to implement your solution. It’s not enough that they do a year project and then they start to have their problem solved.

Um, so either, yeah, it has to be so much better or it needs to be totally painless to implement it. That’s the, that’s the two, two options that you have. There isn’t a third option. 

Yolanda Padron: I think it’s really important to balance your humility. Uh, and just your ego a little bit. Of course, you need to be proud of your product and you want to believe in it and everything.

Uh, but you need to be humble enough to listen to the person and listen to their issues and listen to maybe your product isn’t perfect and it needs some tweaks [00:24:00] and mower likely than not, it will need some tweaks. So just don’t. Continue going forward to something that just won’t work. 

Speaker 6: Australia’s wind farms are growing fast, but are your operations keeping up?

Join us February 17th and 18th at Melbourne’s Pullman on the park for Wind energy ONM Australia 2026, where you’ll connect with the experts solving real problems in maintenance asset management. And OEM relations. Walk away with practical strategies to cut costs and boost uptime that you can use the moment you’re back on site.

Register now at WMA 2020 six.com. Wind Energy o and M Australia is created by wind professionals for wind professionals because this industry needs solutions, not speeches. 

Allen Hall: So everybody’s preparing to go to Melbourne in February of 2026 for Woma [00:25:00] Wind Energy, o and m Australia and the promos have just hit LinkedIn.

Everybody’s talking about it. We’re getting a, a quite a number of sponsors. Joel. We have a, a couple of sponsorship levels still available, but not many. 

Joel Saxum: Yeah, we are fresh out of round table sponsors. Um, we’ve still got a couple hanging out there for some. Receptions and lunches and things like that. But, uh, yeah, we’ve got, uh, a lot of our friends joining up, a lot of emails coming in to ask of can I get involved somehow?

Um, which is great because to be honest with you, even if we don’t have a spot for an ex ex exhibitor spot or a sponsorship spot, getting to talk with people at an early engagement level is fantastic. But we’re, ’cause we’re finding more and more subject matter experts through these conversations as well.

So we’re able to bring, if, if we can’t. Engage on a sponsorship level, fine. Still reach out because the, there might be a spot for you up on a panel as one of these people that can educate, uh, and share, uh, with the Australian wind industry 

Allen Hall: and as the promos are saying, Rosemary. We [00:26:00] want solutions, not speeches.

So this whole event is about solution, solution solutions, right? 

Rosemary Barnes: And problems. 

Allen Hall: What kind of problems are we gonna talk about? 

Rosemary Barnes: I mean, I think that’s the, the interesting part is that it brings those two, two parts together. That’s what we’ve been talking about with technology development. That the, you know, the critical thing is to know, understand very well what your customers.

Facing in terms of problems. And so this is the event where everybody is there to talk about exactly what problems they’re actually spending time on day to day. And those are the ones where, you know, it’s a much easier pathway to succeed. So if you’re a, a. Technology developer, you know, a company that has some new technologies, then this is the event to come to to make sure that you get that fit right.

Allen Hall: And Woma 2026 will be held the 17th and 18th at the Pullman Hotel, which is in beautiful downtown Melbourne. And you need to be going online. Go to Woma 2026 WOMA, 2020 six.com. Get registered. There’s only 250 seats [00:27:00] available and a number of them have already been reserved. So it’s shrinking day by day.

If you want to attend and you should attend, go ahead, register for the event. If you’re interested in sponsorship, you need to get a hold of Joel. And how do they do that? 

Joel Saxum: Uh, you can reach out to me on LinkedIn, um, pretty easy to find there. Uh, or send me a direct email. JOEL Do a xm. I have to say that out loud because.

I gets confused a [email protected], so Joel dot [email protected]. 

Allen Hall: So go to Wilma. 2020 six.com and register today.

This quarter is PES WIN Magazine, which has arrived via the Royal Mail. There are a number of great articles and uh, I was thumbing through it the other day and the article from Veolia, and we had Veolia on the podcast, uh, a couple of years ago on blade recycling. And there’s a number of, of cool things happening there.

You know, Veolia was grinding down the blades and then using them, [00:28:00] uh, mixing them with, with cement. Reducing some of the coal and other energy forms that are used to, to make cement. And they were also using, uh, some of the fiber as fill. So that process, when they first started, we were talking to ’em. Then there’s been a lot of iterations to it.

It’s like anything in recycling, the first go around is never easy. But Veolia has the. 

That wraps up another episode of the Uptime Wind Energy Podcast. Thanks for joining us as we explore the latest in wind energy technology and industry insights. If today’s discussion sparked any questions or ideas, we’d love to hear from you.

Reach out to us on LinkedIn and don’t forget to subscribe so you never miss an episode. And if you. Found value in today’s conversation. Please leave us a review. It really helps other wind energy professionals discover the show and we’ll catch you here next week on the Uptime Wind Energy [00:29:00] Podcast.

Allen covers positive developments like EDF’s 261 MW Serra das Almas wind farm in Brazil, Ørsted’s offshore progress in the US, and Shell’s hydrogen deal in Germany. Then the troubling stories: a Nordex technical manager caught mining cryptocurrency inside turbines, and the discovery of asbestos in Goldwind turbine brake pads across multiple Australian wind farms.

Sign up now for Uptime Tech News, our weekly email update on all things wind technology. This episode is sponsored by Weather Guard Lightning Tech. Learn more about Weather Guard’s StrikeTape Wind Turbine LPS retrofit. Follow the show on Facebook, YouTube, Twitter, Linkedin and visit Weather Guard on the web. And subscribe to Rosemary Barnes’ YouTube channel here. Have a question we can answer on the show? Email us!

The wind industry is having quite a week. Some stories are blowing in the right direction. Others… well… you’ll see.

Let’s start with the good news.

In Brazil… EDF power solutions just powered up the Serra das Almas wind farm. Two hundred sixty-one megawatts. Fifty-eight Danish Vestas turbines spinning in Bahia state. Six hundred thousand homes… now running on wind.

Up in the United States… Ørsted is making waves with two offshore wind projects. Revolution Wind and Sunrise Wind. Cable installation is underway. Offshore substations are being commissioned. By next year… more than sixteen hundred megawatts will be flowing into Connecticut… Rhode Island… and New York.

Over in Germany… Shell is turning wind into hydrogen. They’ve signed a five-year power deal with Nordsee One. Starting in two thousand twenty-seven… offshore wind will feed a one hundred megawatt electrolyzer. Clean electricity making clean fuel. To power everything from trucks to chemical plants.

But now… the other stories.

In the Netherlands… a technical manager at Nordex wind farms thought he’d found the perfect side hustle. He had the keys. He had the access. He had giant wind turbines spinning out free electricity twenty-four hours a day.

And he had a plan.

Between August and November of two thousand twenty-two… the man installed three cryptocurrency mining rigs at the Gieterveen wind farm. He plugged them straight into a Nordex router. Inside a substation.

Then he drove to Waardpolder. Another wind farm. He climbed inside the turbines. And he hid two Helium network nodes. Connected them to Nordex’s internal network.

Month after month… while the turbines spun… his crypto wallet grew.

Nobody noticed. Why would they? He was the technical manager. He belonged there.

But then… Nordex got hit with something much worse. A ransomware attack. The Conti cybercrime crew. The company was scrambling. Investigating their networks. Looking for breaches.

That’s when they found his mining rigs.

The courts heard the case earlier this month. The prosecutor was not amused. This wasn’t just theft. This was a man who’d been trusted with critical infrastructure. Giant turbines. Automated systems. Industrial networks.

The prosecutor wanted two hundred forty hours of community service.

But the judges saw something else. A first-time offender. A man suffering from depression and burnout. Someone who admitted everything.

They cut the sentence in half. One hundred twenty hours.

Plus four thousand one hundred fifty-five euros in damages. About forty-four hundred dollars.

And if he doesn’t pay? Fifty-one days in custody.

If he doesn’t complete his community service? Sixty days in jail.

The court made one thing crystal clear. He’d shown no concern for the potential disruption to the turbines. No concern for the company’s trust. No concern… that he was running a side business… inside critical infrastructure.

But here’s the story that’s really stopped the industry cold.

In Tasmania… at the Cattle Hill wind farm… inspectors made a disturbing discovery. Asbestos. In the brake pads. Inside the turbine tower lifts.

Now… Tasmania is just the beginning.

The turbines were built by Goldwind… And Goldwind supplies turbines to wind farms all across Australia. New South Wales. Victoria. Queensland.

WorkSafe Victoria and SafeWork NSW confirmed Friday… asbestos has been found at multiple wind farm sites. White Rock. Gullen Range. Biala. Clarke Creek. Moorabool. Stockyard Hill.

The brake pads were imported into Australia. Importing asbestos has been illegal there… since two thousand three.

Beijing Energy International says the risk is extremely low. Access to affected turbines is restricted. They’re working with regulators. Testing is underway.

But here’s what everyone’s thinking…

Last week… asbestos was found in colored sand products from China. Schools shut down. Childcare centers closed. In the Australian Capital Territory. Queensland. South Australia.

Now it’s wind turbines.

So the wind industry had quite a week.

Clean power spinning up in Brazil.

Offshore cables going down in America.

Hydrogen flowing in Germany.

Cryptocurrency crimes in the Netherlands.

And asbestos… hiding inside turbines… from China.

And that’s the wind industry news for the 24th of November 2025.

Join us tomorrow for the Uptime Wind Energy Podcast.

Allen and Joel sit down with Michael McQueenie, Head of Sales for SkySpecs in Europe at the SkySpecs Customer Forum. They discuss the booming European wind energy market, SkySpecs’ role in asset management, and their expansion into solar farm operations.

Sign up now for Uptime Tech News, our weekly email update on all things wind technology. This episode is sponsored by Weather Guard Lightning Tech. Learn more about Weather Guard’s StrikeTape Wind Turbine LPS retrofit. Follow the show on Facebook, YouTube, Twitter, Linkedin and visit Weather Guard on the web. And subscribe to Rosemary Barnes’ YouTube channel here. Have a question we can answer on the show? Email us!

Welcome to Uptime Spotlight, shining Light on Wind Energy’s brightest innovators. This is the Progress Powering Tomorrow.

Allen Hall: Welcome to the Uptime Wind Energy Podcast Spotlight. I have Joel Saxum with me. I’m Allen Hall, the host, and we are here with Michael McQueenie head of sales for SkySpecs over in Europe. Michael, welcome to the show. 

Michael McQueenie: Thanks for having me. 

Allen Hall: We are at SkySpecs customer Form 2025 and it has been a blowout event, so many operators from all over learning and exchanging information about how they operate their assets.

We wanted to have you on today because you’re our reference to Europe and what is happening with SkySpecs in Europe. America and Europe are on different pathways at the moment. What is that status right now in Europe? What are people calling you for today? 

Michael McQueenie: the, European market is really booming.

we get calls from customers to support [00:01:00] with internal inspections, external inspections as we always have for, nearly a decade now. We are seeing a lot more, discussions around the, enablement services that we can offer. how did, how do we bring a blade engineer and how do we bring a CMS engineer into support and give us, give us more of an insight on the data that we have or, or the data that Skys fix are producing.

things are evolving. and, it’s a buoyant offshore industry at the moment. 

Allen Hall: yeah, there’s like thousands of turbines going up right now. it used to be when you thought of. Deployment. Unlike Germany, for example, it’d be three turbines on the hillside. 

Michael McQueenie: Yeah. 

Allen Hall: Now we’re talking about in the uk have hundreds of turbines hitting the water.

Michael McQueenie: Yeah. 

Allen Hall: And that’s change of scale has driven a lot of operators realize I need expertise in blades, I need expertise in CMS. I need an expert in gearbox, but I don’t necessarily need them full time. 

Michael McQueenie: Yeah. 

Allen Hall: Skys spec. Can you help me? 

Michael McQueenie: the projects [00:02:00] are, they’re fewer projects, but they’re, the scale of these projects are massive.

the scale of the turbine scale of the projects and the impact the projects can have on, the country, as a whole is, is massive. So yeah, it’s, it is a. It’s a, it is a great time to be in Europe and to see the growth. it’s been, coming for a long time. I’ve worked with consultancies who are looking at feasibility studies, in offshore, and onshore.

But the, the growth has been. Just, it’s just around the corner. And I do feel like now with some of these big projects that they’re installing, and yeah, just given the size of the turbines, it’s it’s massive. 

Joel Saxum: one of the things I want to, I think there’s an important context here is that we’re talking, we’re sitting in Ann Arbor, right?

we’re in the us You’re over in Europe. I worked for a Danish company for a while and it was always like this seven hour delay. Kinda can I get the in, can I get the support? Can they get the support? Can we work? How do we work back and forth? Sometimes it was cool because you’d send an email at two o’clock and when you woke up in the morning [00:03:00] it was done.

That was awesome. But also there was these delays. Now this is the interesting thing here is, and Skys facts. This morning we listened to Cheryl. always a great presentation. Yeah. the head of the TEI blade stuff here. She was delivering some insights, but with her was Thomas. Thomas is in Europe.

And you have CMS experts in Europe. You have the local talent that’s over there that can work with these operators on their timelines, on their regular day stuff. They’re not waiting as, and what I’m trying to get to is, is SkySpecs is not a Ann Arbor company. Skyspace is a global company in a big way.

And so this, so thinking like, oh, this is an American company, w. Will we use someone that’s more local no. No. Skyspace is a local European company as well. 

Michael McQueenie: Yeah, and we’ve got the SMEs over there. it’s not just Cheryl, who’s a fantastic en engineer. Having your at your, disposal, Thomas is phenomenal.

customers are seeing real value in integrating him into their team, being the SME [00:04:00] for them, as you, as we said before. Being able to turn ’em off, on and off as required. Don’t, you’ve not got that the FTE cost right. to bring in an SME that, that needs to, support you with a, with an individual component of your, asset.

Yeah. Blades are a huge problem. The industry’s seeing that as they’re getting bigger, the problems are getting bigger. but yeah, having, a local presence in Europe is, massive. my inbox is full from, all the US. Inquiries and issues, during the night, just like you’re saying.

Yeah. And I wake up to dozens of emails with, requirements on inbox and my to-do list is full. But the, but the reality is yeah, we’re, grown in Europe. we are. Our real solid presence in Europe and we’ve, seen massive growth this year. 

Joel Saxum: I think it, it’s part of the value chain there.

Touching on the Thomas and Cheryl. Right. So in SkySpecs over this week, we’ve been talking more and more about the, how you guys like to specifically work within a workflow. And that workflow being we have [00:05:00]inspections, we’re in the platform now we’re in horizon, bam. And we can enable the tech enabled services, which is those SMEs which you have inside.

The company and then rolling that forward to the repair vendor management, which is happening in a big way in the States. Yesterday I saw a number, $13 million in repairs managed by the Sky Spec team. That’s huge. And, that same capability. And we’re just talking blazes right now, like we haven’t even touched on CMS performance monitoring, financial asset monitoring.

That same concept is, is replica replicate in the EU as well. 

Michael McQueenie: No, it absolutely is, Our customers have got problems, we can help them with the problems. Thomas is, as you said, we work in workflows and Thomas is, is looking to support customers with how they, touch their data as few times as they possibly can.

How do we get from A to B and how does a customer understand what their problems are and how they fix the problems? And sometimes an [00:06:00]SME is the, way to fix that. Thomas has provide, provided huge value to our customers. The design of workflows in Horizon is the, essence. It exists just to try and get from A to B and, and try and drive insights and then next steps.

And I think that’s the important part, being, this is the action to 

Joel Saxum: get 

Michael McQueenie: to the, we’ve got the data, we understand what the data’s telling us. here’s an insight, but actually what is the follow up? And, Thomas is designing that follow up for our customers and providing the support. 

Allen Hall: and just a little bit comparison between the United States and Europe, when we still talk to anybody in the United States about a turbine.

Almost always, it’s a two megawatt, one and a half megawatt turbine, right? Occasionally a four. Sometimes someone says 

Joel Saxum: yesterday like, oh, that’s a three megawatt 

Allen Hall: turbine. Whoa, what’s big? And in Europe, three megawatts was like years ago, particularly offshore that, everything’s 6, 8, 10. 

Michael McQueenie: Yeah. 

Allen Hall: Plus 

Michael McQueenie: 3.6 was the common [00:07:00] turbine.

Five, eight. 

Allen Hall: Yeah. 

Michael McQueenie: Years ago, that was, what everyone was working on. And, they’re a very reliable turbine. It’s, there was a reason why there were so many of them installed at that time. but nowadays, we’re helping OEMs with 50 megawatt turbines. 

Allen Hall: and I think that’s the, thing that we just don’t see in the states is a turbine that’s 15 megawatts is down for a day.

Is so much more expensive and particularly offshore and the expenses go astronomical compared to onshore. Yeah, and Michael, I always see your position of you’re there to save. Millions of pounds or millions, of euros all the time because a shutdown there is huge. 

Joel Saxum: Yeah. 

Allen Hall: And because the grids are changing so much in Europe where they’re becoming more solar and wind dependent and coal is going to change away.

And 

Joel Saxum: triage. 

Allen Hall: Yeah. The triage bit, is that the SkySpecs is in that position to really help a lot our operators out. You’re [00:08:00] providing the insights and the guidance and the knowledge that. An operator probably doesn’t have, because they don’t have the staff to go do it. It’s a And can you enlighten us like what that is because we just don’t see a lot of that here.

Michael McQueenie: Yeah. I think there’s a good reason you don’t see that this was, we are just providing data to some of these, transactions. Whether it’s a due diligence, inspection, or an end of warranty. We are just providing the insights for the customers to. Make their own decisions. Um, so it’s not a SkySpecs decision.

We are just providing insights to, to allow them to make a, smart, educated, data-driven decision. 

Joel Saxum: I think that’s important, concept too. ’cause like here, the Skys spec user form, of course, we’re in the States, so we’ve been talking and I think there’s only two or three people here from.

Yeah. From overseas. So we’ve been talking a lot about the one big, beautiful, what it means. That doesn’t mean that much to you in your daily life, right? No. But your daily life is a bit different with, you have more of a focus on. Maybe financial asset owners. ’cause the market’s different, right? 

Michael McQueenie: yeah.

Absolutely. The, [00:09:00] simplification of process and actually having a workflow no matter what, it’s, whether we’re taking financial data, CMS data or performance, SC data, The simplification of that process and driving insights from it is literally the foundation of what SkySpecs have been here to do.

So providing, financial institutions funds with the ability to. Reach out and, make quick decisions, data-driven decisions. there’s some very smart people in these organizations, asset managers who are, A costly resource to the fund. What they really need to do is pull le pull levers as in when it’s required to.

We need some support with sc. We need some support with blades. How do we, how do they, bring that resource and that expertise in house without having the FTE? and the funds are, phenomenal companies. They’re, growing fast. They don’t want the linear growth of people. to go along with that, that, growth of their portfolio.

So it’s important that we build relationships and make sure that we’re helping them [00:10:00] in every side of their business, whether it’s financial decisions or, technical decisions. 

Joel Saxum: I think there’s a, there’s an important takeaway from this week as well, listening to all the SkySpecs, the people, the presentations, the communications, the, collaborations, the conversations.

Some of ’em a little bit later at night than other ones. I, won’t name any names, but. Listening to those things and understanding this. So a few weeks ago when I was talking with, we talked with Josh Garrell a little bit ago, and I, shared this with him. I saw a McKinsey report that said, SkySpecs, inspection company.

SkySpecs to me is not an inspection company. they do the best inspections in the world, in wind, in my opinion. Yes. However, there’s so much more, there’s so much more there. And it is, it’s really a full support in my opinion, for the CMS to scada, the performance monitoring, the financial asset modeling, the tech enabled insights, repair, vendor management.

There’s so many other solutions within this umbrella that I think a lot of people don’t see. 

Allen Hall: And the one case study that came up yesterday, Michael, I think [00:11:00] that I found interesting was the offshore. Inspections before blades are hung. Yeah. And we see a lot of times in the states where blades are damaged in transport, we think, okay, yeah, the truck damaged it.

Okay, fine, we can fix it on the ground. But on the offshore case, that simple repair now has to happen out in the ocean, and that goes from a couple of thousand dollars to 10. Pounds to tens of thousands of pounds or more to get that resolved. And you had a case just like that. 

Michael McQueenie: Yeah, and I think it’s hundreds of thousands if we’re being honest.

Yeah. If you start looking at vessel costs, crew costs, everything else. But actually what I like about it is that OEMs are actually becoming way more proactive because they know the cost of an up tower repair compared to, an onshore repair. So having the foresight to. Have the inspections completed at the right time.

Working with us on timelines, using technology to perform the inspections, getting through as many as we can, as quickly as we can, [00:12:00] addressing the problems, doing the analysis, and then actually solving the problem before it goes offshore is massive drainage that, how many times is a bleed lifted from the factory to installation.

Lot. It’s a lot. It’s a lot, It’s handled a lot. So there’s a opportunity for something to go wrong, as you said, oh, it’s been knocked, it’s, there’s something wrong. Something’s happened. but solving that is the OEM’s responsibility. So they’re becoming much more proactive in my opinion. we’ve, we’ve had a lot of use cases this week, and it’s always been about the, owners, the operators, how we’ve saved them money, how we provided them value.

The OEMs are looking to us to help them on that front as well, whether it’s robotic or whether it’s, providing analysis or, or a platform to, to manage the data. we are working with, with them in offshore, but the problems are so much bigger. 

Allen Hall: I think the OEMs are learning from Skys spec, so watching what operators are doing to hedge their bets to protect their assets.

And SkySpecs is pretty much involved in all of that. [00:13:00] Now the OEMs are watching the operators saying, why are we not doing that? We’re seeing that in 

Joel Saxum: the lightning. 

Allen Hall: Absolutely. We’re seeing enlightening. We’re seeing it in CMS now. We’re seeing it in a number of areas where the OEMs have watched SkySpecs maneuver and provide better value to their customers that the OEMs are trying to mirror, 

Joel Saxum: I touch on another case study because Alan, you and I sat in on this one yesterday, and if so, I’m gonna put my, my, I’m a European operator hat on. and this is a little weird. I don’t, I have a good accent. Not, I’m not gonna try that, but okay. Say I’m going to, I have a smaller wind farm, right?

So I may have, 20 turbines of a specific model, and I would like to understand where am I at for performance benchmarking? Am I doing well or not? I don’t have a huge fleet. European fleets are not that big unless you’re offshore. As specifically compared to the US where our wind farms are a hundred, 120 turbines.

Sun Z is a thousand turbines, right? That’s a wind farm. So the problem is different, [00:14:00] but Skys spec has that data. If this is your site, let’s look at how your site is doing compared to. These 1500 of the same models around the world. And then you can look at that, understand your performance benchmark, and then start diving into the issues that may be causing it, to not perform as well.

And then fixing them and getting it up to speed to what it should be compared to everybody else. And I thought, man, what a use case, especially in the European market. 

Michael McQueenie: No, absolutely. and we always talk about benchmarking. We’ve, I’ve been with companies who have tried benchmarking in the past, looking at KPIs.

How do you benchmark your performance of your turbine against something similar? And I think Skyspace are starting to get that right. we’ve, got the sc the scatter data and looking at the biggest impact in damages or the biggest failure faults that you have on your turbine and how we, how it can help you.

Push the OEMs. Yeah, just give them a prod to, 

Joel Saxum: we saw 

Michael McQueenie: case studies on that 

Joel Saxum: yesterday. 

Michael McQueenie: The case studies we’ve seen this week have actually been incredible, and that’s probably the, biggest takeaway for a lot of [00:15:00]people. Just try and understand how we’ve helped. The, customers achiever a return or, what we’ve saved them, over time.

those have been probably the biggest takeaway for me this week. just people are starting to understand and appreciate the returns they could see if they engage with us on all these other products. But the performance side of thing, benchmarking is, a really interesting topic.

Completely away from just looking at performance data. Everyone in the room over the last couple of days. Is, dancing around the, topic of benchmarking because, they’re, very, protective of the data. Yes. but I think people, and we’ve spoke about maybe for the last 12 months, they have shown an interest in, oh, I can share some data and if it’s anonymized, that I’d be happy to take part in that.

But. I’d love to see, that taking a step further, I’d love to see that. I think everyone in the industry, everyone in that room would benefit from, [00:16:00]from data sharing to, to learn from each other with freely optimiz data. Yeah, absolutely. 

Allen Hall: there have been a number of announcements this week also from SkySpecs.

Some of the bigger ones are the move into solar and Europe. There’s a lot of solar power in Europe, particularly some parts of Europe. That could be a massive amount of phone calls your way, Michael. oh, sky Spec is doing blades. Turbines and solar. I’ll take it. 

Joel Saxum: Yeah. 

Allen Hall: And I think there’s been a huge demand for that for the last several years, but it’s just been, you’ve been so busy with turbine problems, so honestly that you haven’t had the ability to get to solar.

Now with some of the tools you just brought in, you can. 

Michael McQueenie: Yeah, I think we, we started off just blades, as we all know. Yeah. As you said, if we were just an inspection company. the acquisitions we’ve made, over the last few years have been taking us to the point where we’re now covering full turbine asset health monitoring.

And that was an important part. once we achieve that, now you can, you gain a [00:17:00] bit of clarity. we can start to look at diversification into new asset types. Solar’s been something I’m asked about once a month from European customers, and prospects. So we’ve tempered expectations for quite a long time.

We, we know we were going to move into solar at some point. we’ve got, we’ve got a really big opportunity I think, we’re very well positioned to, to help solar operators. Yeah, 

Allen Hall: I think, I think there’s the variability in solar. From the different manufacturer. There’s so many manufacturers of panels and are inverters and even some of the configurations, the, support structures have issues, but SkyScan specs is gonna make that a lot easier because the tools are better now than they were five years ago.

Michael McQueenie: Yeah, no, absolutely. And we’ve got a massive customer base with that mix of wind, solar battery. So we, have to come up with that solution and, the tools are perfectly placed. 

Allen Hall: Yeah. 

Michael McQueenie: It’s the same engineers that will be asked. 

Joel Saxum: See 

Michael McQueenie: now [00:18:00] you’re dealing with solar. There’ll be no questions asked.

There will be. That’s happening already. You fixed wind for us. There’s, I’m gonna change your job description as wind engineer plus solar. 

Allen Hall: Yeah. And then it’s gonna be 

plus 

Allen Hall: best, right? 

Michael McQueenie: That, 

reviewable energy engineer, 

Joel Saxum: that’s what it will be. But I think there’s a, there’s some things here too to share with the European crowd is, there has been some strategic additions to the leadership team, Ben Token coming on as the CTO helping with some of that data architecture in the background.

And then what will be the future of you guys have, there’s always work to be done, right? But have gotten really close to having a big, perfect little model of this is how you manage a wind asset. now that can be control C, C control V, solar, control C control V best, and that’s the future of what Skys spec is going to become a renewable energy company.

And that’s the future. 

Michael McQueenie: Yeah. I think that the additions to the business have been pretty visionary. Yeah. rich and Ben are both. Phenomenal individuals will, that will drive us to, success in all these other areas. [00:19:00] rich has, been part of the business and has from the board from a, for a number of years now, and, I think he’s now seeing the.

How special the business is. How special it could be. Yeah. Once we, start that diversification. 

Joel Saxum: Yeah. I’ve seen Rich here at the, ’cause we are in Ann Arbor at the forum. It’s Wednesday. So we’ve, we’re on day two, and I’ve seen Rich floating around talking with some of the customers, talking with a lot of the SkySpecs employees.

I’ve had a few conversations with him and. That man has a big smile on his face all day long. 

Michael McQueenie: Yeah. 

Joel Saxum: He sees the opportunity. he’s happy to engage. He wants to talk with people. he’s gonna be a big part of the future of the group. And I, think it’s exciting to see him here. 

Michael McQueenie: He really has, I think both of them have, really accelerated the excitement and the, development of all the tools.

everyone’s rallying behind them to 

Joel Saxum: Yeah. 

Michael McQueenie: to try and make sure that, we, get to the next tech. 

Joel Saxum: Yeah. Last night we talked with, Ben about big data and analytics. We’re recording it now. So we’re, telling we’re gonna try to get him down to [00:20:00] Australia to speak to the Australian crowd during our event down there in February about big data analytics and his background, what Skys books is doing with it.

Allen Hall: Yeah. And big data is the future. Everybody knew it three years ago. Yeah. We’re finally at the level we can start processing it and make use of it. I think Michael, you’re in a unique position and SkySpecs is in a really unique position in Europe. The world is looking to Europe on renewables. The expansion of renewables, how coal has essentially gone away.

Gas is still kicking around. France has a, still a good bit of nuclear and rightly It’s a great resource for them. but the solar, wind battery play is gonna be the, big push over the next several years. Without SkySpecs, it’s gonna be really hard to be successful there and to get the revenue stream that you expected out of it.

Your phone has to be ringing off the hook all the time. Yeah. 

Michael McQueenie: The, co-location story has been building momentum for a couple of years now, and right now it’s [00:21:00] just, everyone’s talking about it, the battery, adding batteries to sites and co-locating solar with wind. And, yeah, it’s, been, it is a really exciting thing.

it’s skys picks are really well positioned to help every one of them. 

Allen Hall: So how do people get ahold of you? And is LinkedIn the best place? Just go, Michael McQueenie and SkySpecs. 

Michael McQueenie: Yeah, most people, I’m fairly well connected in the European market. A lot of people will have my details, but yeah, LinkedIn, absolutely.

Allen Hall: Okay, great. Michael, I love having you, on webinars and in person for these, interview sessions because Joel and I learn so much. you’re just a great resource and if you’re interested in SkySpecs and, and the services that they offer. In Europe, get ahold of Michael. He will get you set up and get you into the horizon platform and get you solutions.

So Michael, thank you so much for being on the podcast. 

Michael McQueenie: Thank 

Allen Hall: you very much for it. It’s been [00:22:00] great.

The crew discusses LM Wind Power’s dramatic layoff of 60% of remaining Danish staff, dropping from 90 to just 31 workers. What does this mean for thousands of wind farms with LM blades? Is government intervention possible? Who might acquire the struggling blade manufacturer? Plus, a preview of the Wind Energy O&M Australia 2026 conference in Melbourne this February.

Learn more about CICNDT!
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Sign up now for Uptime Tech News, our weekly email update on all things wind technology. This episode is sponsored by Weather Guard Lightning Tech. Learn more about Weather Guard’s StrikeTape Wind Turbine LPS retrofit. Follow the show on Facebook, YouTube, Twitter, Linkedin and visit Weather Guard on the web. And subscribe to Rosemary Barnes’ YouTube channel here. Have a question we can answer on the show? Email us!

 If you haven’t downloaded your latest edition of PES Wind Magazine, now’s the time issue four for 2025. It’s the last issue for 2025 is out and I just received mine in the Royal Mail. I had a brief time to review some of the articles inside of this issue. Tremendous content, uh, for the end of the year.

Uh, you wanna sit down and take a good long read. There’s plenty of articles that affect what you’re doing in your wind business, so it’s been a few moments. Go to peswind.com Download your free copy and read it today. You’re listening to the Uptime Wind Energy Podcast, brought to you by build turbines.com.

Learn, train, and be a part of the Clean Energy Revolution. Visit build turbines.com today. Now here’s your hosts, Alan Hall, Joel Saxon, Phil Totaro, and Rosemary Barnes. Welcome to the Uptime Wind Energy [00:01:00]Podcast. I’m your host, Alan Hall in the Queen city of Charlotte, North Carolina. I’ve got Yolanda Padron in Texas.

Joel Saxon up in Wisconsin and Rosemary Barnes down under in Australia, and it has been a, a really odd Newsweek. There is a slow down happening in wind. Latest news from Ella Wind Power is they’re gonna lay off about 60% of their staff in Denmark. They’ve only have about 90 employees there at the moment.

Which is a dramatic reduction of what that company once was. Uh, so they’re planning to lay off about 59 of the 90 workers that are still there. Uh, the Danish media is reporting. There’s a lot of Danish media reporting on this at the moment. Uh, there’s a letter that was put out by Ellen Windpower and it discusses that customers have canceled orders and are moving, uh, their blade production to internal factories.

And I, I assume. That’s a [00:02:00] GE slash Siemens effort that is happening, uh, that’s affecting lm and customers are willing to pay prices that make it possible to run the LM business profitably. Uh, the company has also abandoned all efforts on large blades because I, I assume just because they don’t see a future in it for the time being now, everybody is wondering.

How GE Renova is involved in this because they still do own LM wind power. It does seem like there’s two pieces to LM at the minute. One that serves GE Renova and then the another portion of the company that’s just serving outside customers. Uh, so far, if, if you look at what GE Renova paid for the company and what revenue has been brought in, GE Renova has lost about 8.3 billion croner, which is a little over a billion dollars since buying the company in 2017.

So it’s never really been. Hugely profitable over that time. And remember a few months ago, maybe a month ago now, or two months ago, the CEO of LM [00:03:00] Windpower left the company. Uh, and I now everyone, I’m not sure what the future is for LM Windpower, uh, because it’s, it has really dramatically shrunk. It’s down to what, like 3000 total employees?

I think they were up at one point to a little over when Rosie was there, about 14,000 employees. What has happened? Maybe Rosemary, you should start since you were working there at one point. 

Rosemary Barnes: Yeah, I dunno. It always makes me really sad and there’s still a few people that I used to work with that were there when I went to Denmark in May and caught up with a bunch of, um, my old colleagues and most of them had moved on because a lot of firing had already happened by that point.

But there were still a few there, but the mood was pretty despondent and I think that they guessed that this was coming. But I just find it really hard to see how with the number, just the pure number of people that are left there. I, I find it really hard to see how they can even support what they’ve still [00:04:00] got in the field.

Um. Let alone like obviously they cut way back on manufacturing. Okay. Cut Way back on developing new products. Okay. But you still do need some capabilities to work through warranty claims and um, you know, and any kind of serial issues. Yeah, I would be worried about things like, um, you know, from time to time you need a new, a new blade or a new set of blades produced.

Maybe a lot of them, you know, if you discover an issue, there’s a serial defect that doesn’t, um, become obvious until 10 years into the turbine’s lifetime. You might need to replace a whole bunch of blades and are you gonna be able to, like, what’s, what is gonna happen to this huge number of assets that are out there with LM blades on there?

Uh, I, yeah, I, I would really like to see some announcements about what they’re keeping, you know, what functionality they’re planning to keep and what they’re planning to excise. 

Joel Saxum: But I mean, at the end of the day, if it’s, if [00:05:00] the business is not profitable to run that they have no. Legal standing to have to stay open?

Rosemary Barnes: No, no, of course not. We all know that there, there’s, you know, especially like you go through California, there’s all sorts of coast turbines there that nobody knows how to maintain them anymore. Right. And, um, yeah, and, and around there was one in, um, in Texas as well with some weird kind of gearbox. I can’t remember what exactly, but yeah, like the company went bankrupt, no one knew what to do with them, so they just, you know, like fell into disrepair and couldn’t be used anymore.

’cause if you can’t. Operate them safely, then you can’t let no one, the government is not gonna let you just, you know, just. Try your luck, operate them until rotors start flying off. You know, like that’s not really how it works. So yeah, I do think that like you, you can’t just stay silent about, um, what you expect to happen because you know, like maybe I have just done some, a bit of catastrophizing and, you know, finding worst case scenarios, but that is where your mind naturally goes.

And the absence of information about what you can expect, [00:06:00] then that’s what. People are naturally gonna do what I’ve just done and just think through, oh, you know, what, what could this mean for me? It might be really bad. So, um, yeah, it is a little bit, a little bit interesting. 

Allen Hall: Delamination and bottom line, failures and blades are difficult problems to detect early.

These hidden issues can cost you millions in repairs and lost energy production. C-I-C-N-D-T are specialists to detect these critical flaws before they become expensive burdens. Their non-destructive test technology penetrates deep to blade materials to find voids and cracks. Traditional inspections, completely.

Miss C-I-C-N-D-T Maps. Every critical defect delivers actionable reports and provides support to get your blades. Back in service, so visit cic ndt.com because catching blade problems early will save you millions. Yolanda, what are asset managers [00:07:00] thinking about the LM changes as they proceed with orders and think about managing their LM Blade fleet over the next couple of years, knowing that LM is getting much smaller Quicker?

Yolanda Padron: Yeah, and this all comes at a time when. A lot of projects are reaching the end of the full service agreements that they had with some of these OEMs, right? So you already know that your risk profile is increasing. You already know. I mean, like Rosie, you said worst case scenario, you have a few years left before you don’t know what to do with some of the issues that are being presented.

Uh, because you don’t count with that first line of support that you typically would in this industry. It’s really important to be able to get a good mix of the technical and the commercial. Right? We’ve all seen it, and of course, we’re all a little bit biased because we’re all engineers, right? So we, to us it makes a lot of sense to go over the engineering route.

But the pendulum swung, swung so [00:08:00] far towards the commercial for Ella, the ge, that it just, it. They were always thinking about, or it seemed from an outsider’s point of view, right, that they were always thinking about, how can I get the easiest dollar today without really thinking about, okay, five 10 steps in the future, what’s going to happen to my business model?

Like, will this be sustainable? It did Just, I don’t know, it seems to me like just letting go of so many engineers and just going, I know Rosie, you mentioned a couple of podcasts ago about how they just kept on going from like Gen A to Gen B, to Gen C, D, and then it just, without really solving any problems initially.

Like, it, it, it was just. It’s difficult for me to think that nobody in those leadership positions thought about what was gonna happen in the [00:09:00]future. 

Rosemary Barnes: Yeah. I think it was about day-to-day survival. ’cause I was definitely there like saying, you know, there’s too many, um, technical problems that Yeah. When I was saying that a hundred, a hundred of versions of me were all saying that, a lot of us were saying it.

Just in the cafeteria amongst ourselves. And a lot of us, uh, you know, a bit more outspoken Danish people don’t really believe a lot in a strict hierarchy. So certainly people were saying it to directors and VPs and CEOs, but, um, yeah, it was, uh, I think it was more about like the commercial reality of today is that there won’t be a commercial.

Tomorrow to experience these engineering problems if we don’t make these, um, decisions. Now, if, if that makes sense. As a really complicated way of saying we need to be able to sell this product, otherwise we’re not gonna sell anything. And then no one will be, no one will have a job in 10 years regardless.

So. We’ll solve, you know, whatever quality problems that arise from doing too many new technologies at once, at [00:10:00] least we’ll be, the company will still exist to be able to have a go at solving them if we, you know, make these sales. Um, which it won’t if we don’t. So I think that that would be the, like the other point of view, like it’s really easy to say now, oh yeah, we should have, um, we shouldn’t have done that, but yeah, I, I’m pretty sure management’s gonna tell you why they did it is for the sales.

Joel Saxum: This is an odd case being lm an ex Danish company now owned by GE Renova, which is a US based company. 

Allen Hall: Global. 

Joel Saxum: Global really. But yeah, but when we get into this, too big to fail type thing, right? So like Siemens cesa, having the German government back them up with a note, um, when they were having troubles a year and a half ago.

Uh. Is there a award like the too big to fail in the United States where the government bailed out the auto worker or the auto manufacturers and stuff like that. I don’t see that happening here because the company’s too small. But at what level do governments [00:11:00] intervene? Right? So it’s, I know every government’s gonna be different and every, but there’s have their own criteria and there’s not a hard set, probably line or metric of like, oh, you have this much impact on society, so we must support you to make sure you survive.

Well, when Rosemary, when you say like in, when you were there, you were there five years ago, 2020, right before COVID. Right. At that point in time, 20% of the world’s blades were LM blades of the global fleet. Well, if that’s was true still, that would be a hundred thousand plus turbines in the global fleet.

That would be LM blades. And if we have. Issues with them and we can’t solve them. I think one, one of the, one of the things that we’re, that we’re probably thankful for is there is that many, so there has been a lot of independent engineering expertise that’s been able to fix some of them. A lot of independent ISPs, you know, out there, service companies, blade repair companies that have been able to figure out how to make these things even, you know, regardless of getting the layup pattern or layup designs or any kind of engineering information from, from Malam [00:12:00] or from the OEMs.

Um, we have been able to maintain them, so that’s good. But is there a level where, I know Alan, you were shaking your head, but is there a level where anybody steps in from a government standpoint to save lm? 

Allen Hall: I would almost bet that Renova has talked to the Danish government. Somebody at LM has, I would have to think that they have already.

And has been, at least in the press, no response. And with this latest announcement, it doesn’t seem like the Danish government wants to be involved. So my, my take on it is they have an American stamp on ’em right now, and Denmark and the United States are not playing nice to one another. So why would I help ge?

Why would I do that? And that’s not a bad response. 

Rosemary Barnes: Potentially it wouldn’t even have to be necessarily the US or the Danish government that might have to get involved, because I know in Australia, and I’m, I can’t believe it’s different anywhere else. You have to be able to safely operate, uh, an asset like a, a wind turbine.

And that’s, um, some, [00:13:00] a responsibility of both the asset owner and the operator, but also the manufacturer and so they can compel to provide the information that you need to operate safely. I’ve always wondered how, um, ’cause you know, all the OEMs not talking, uh, LM or GE specifically here, they, they don’t really give away enough information to, um, operate assets safely, in my opinion.

So that is the key thing that you just, you can’t lose otherwise. You’re going to end up with blades that have to be scrapped or that you have to, you know, guess that it’s probably okay and then see how it goes. And, you know, that’s. Good a lot of the time, but it’s, it’s gonna make things less safe into the future.

You would expect to see more blade failures if you saw that happening a lot. So, you know, I would at least wanna make sure that you’re keeping, keeping people, keeping those models and keeping the people that know how to run them. Enough of them around. [00:14:00] Or making them publicly available. 

Allen Hall: Don’t miss the UK Offshore Wind Supply Chain Spotlight 2025 in Edinburg on December 11th.

Over 550 delegates and 100 exhibitors will be at this game changing event. Connect with decision makers, explore market ready innovations and secure the partnerships to accelerate your growth. Register now and take your place at the center of the UK’s offshore Wind future. Just visit supply chain spotlight.co.uk and register today.

How soon before ING Yang puts in an offer to buy LM and or TPI? That’s gonna happen in the next six months. It has to. 

Joel Saxum: What about instead of buying the factory, what if someone rises from the ashes and just buys the molds? 

Allen Hall: I think you have to eat the workers. I think that’s gonna be the trouble, 

Joel Saxum: but I don’t think you want them.

Allen Hall: Wow. That’s a hot take. 

Joel Saxum: But honestly, like the quality coming out now, and I’ll, and I will caveat this as well, the [00:15:00] quality is not their, the quality is not all their fault. The quality of some respects is the way it was designed for manufacturing. But there is issues that we have seen and has been, have been uncovered that have been in the news, in the, in the free press that show that stuff happening in factories that shouldn’t be happening.

So do you actually want that or do you, this is why I say someone rises from the ashes and, and or, and creates something with a bunch of inco, you know, like knowing the pitfalls and the, the, the things that have happened that are bad, the things that can go well that are good. You know, when we talk to some of the people in the industry that have been around blade manufacturing, and they, and they have told us, man, we’ve seen.

Quality, uh, control mechanisms thrown on the shelves, even though we know they work just because people, defactor didn’t wanna use them for whatever reason. I don’t, you know, you don’t know, um, whether it’s inspection, whether it’s, you know, robotics this, or whether it’s [00:16:00] this solution here. Like there’s a possibility that we could do this way better.

Maybe there’s this case right now where someone is like, you know what, robotics, let’s do this. Let’s try to make it happen. Let’s get rid of this incumbent knowledge of automated blades and start fresh from a. Scratch 

Allen Hall: my other hot take was GE sells their wind business, 

Joel Saxum: the entire wind business. 

Allen Hall: Yeah. 

Joel Saxum: To who 

Allen Hall: Ing Yang or somebody?

Anybody, 

Rosemary Barnes: if they wanna do that, I’d recommend doing it in the, um, current administration would probably be the most likely to allow that to happen because I would imagine that, uh, another time that people might not be so happy that, uh, the US has therefore no wind turbine manufacturer. 

Allen Hall: Does anybody else not think so that that’s a possibility.

They’re not listening to offers right now. 

Joel Saxum: I would say Mitsubishi maybe. I don’t think Ming Yang. I don’t think some, I don’t think a Chinese, no, but I do think a Korea and a Japanese, a German 

Allen Hall: could do it. 

Joel Saxum: Yeah. Well, that would entertain the offer. [00:17:00]

Rosemary Barnes: What about one of the large ISPs buying, you know, the ability to, you know.

Properly, properly service blades for, you know, many, many, many manufacturers. There’s a lot of knowledge that you’d get there. Um, the ability to replace blades, maybe it splits into two and there’s, you know, one company takes it for manufacturing into the future, and which case they’re probably just buying factories and not really worried about much else.

And then somebody else buys molds and, um, knowledge. Models, those sorts of things 

Joel Saxum: as a pitch for what exactly what you’re saying. So now let’s go back to, um, was it Larry Fink who said that they’re in investing in infrastructure, big time in the future, energy infrastructure is the future, da, da, da. And they, or like BlackRock’s been throwing money at everything, right?

They’ve been just buying, buying, buying, buying, buying. If some, someone came to them with the right [00:18:00] plan, there’s where your capital could come from. Who is it? Right? You know, that there’s players out there that may not be in the ISP world, I think is, p is interesting, Rosemary, but like a, a next era that’s like this with GEs, 

Allen Hall: Adani, 

Joel Saxum: a Donny’s in too much hot water to to, to make a deal with that, to let the SEC allow that.

Rosemary Barnes: Here’s my hot take. So LM started at the lm, it stands for lco Mills Fabric, which means, um, furniture manufacturer, right? So they started out making furniture, then they were making, um, caravans, I believe, and then there were, so that was all wood. Then they started making caravans outta fiberglass. Then they started making boats because those are also fiberglass and wood kind of things.

Then they moved into wind turbine blades and became LM glass fiber. So now they’re only doing fiberglass things. And then it was LM wind power. They only were doing wind power. Maybe, you know, [00:19:00] are they gonna go into, I don’t know, making airplanes next, or, or rockets, or are they gonna take a step backwards and, you know, go back into furniture?

Allen Hall: How do you put a value on a company that’s losing money? 

Joel Saxum: That’s where I was going, Mr. Hall, October of 2016 when GE bought them, they paid one point. Six, 5 billion US dollars. I don’t think that that’s was probably a too wild of a price back then, but there’s no way that they’re worth that much now with what has has happened.

That being said, say they’re worth, I don’t know, I’m just gonna throw a number out there. Say they’re worth 800 million, half of that. I don’t see that as like a crazy amount for someone else, like Rosemary said, that may be crossing industry silos to pick up. Some factories, some, some composites knowledge, some other things as well, as long as they get, get into it.

With the understanding that this is a fire sale and [00:20:00] things need to be fixed, 

Rosemary Barnes: isn’t, um, ozempic Danish? So there must be some, build, some Danish billionaires. Maybe there’s gonna be some national pride that that kicks in and makes somebody want to, you know, like Denmark is quite known for wind power. Um, if you combine, you know, the demise of LM with vest also.

Announcing a whole lot of job cuts. I, it’s not such a fast stretch to think that some Danish billionaire is gonna be like, you know what, Denmark should still have wind industry and I’m gonna make sure it happens. 

Allen Hall: No shot. I don’t see it. I, it would be awesome if they did 

Joel Saxum: Maersk, lm, 

Allen Hall: but Meers doesn’t wanna lose money.

Why you, why would you invest in something that’s going to lose money for the next five years? Who’s doing that today? 

Joel Saxum: Let’s just do a little comparison. So TPI claiming bankruptcy the other day when we looked at the Val, the market cap of them, they’re publicly traded. They were a hundred million, weren’t they?

Like a couple, six months ago, 

Allen Hall: [00:21:00] $1.5 million. 

Joel Saxum: Oh my God. It’s 1.5 million. Do you mean you could buy TPI over 1.5 million? 

Allen Hall: I can get a second mortgage and have a pretty good take of that business. It has no value because it’s not making money. You, you’ve, it’s EBITDA times X. 

Yolanda Padron: It’d be really interesting to see like an is like them turning into an ISB.

Like I will fix everything that I manufactured, gear, the molds, or like I will replace the parts. 

Rosemary Barnes: It’s hard as well. I just make a few blades here or there. Um, because they only get cheap when you make thousands of them. But that said like sometimes people have to pay, at least in Australia, like it’s not uncommon that you need a new blade.

You have to pay a million dollars for it. So in that case, you know, like that’s apparently, you know, TPI, you buy TPI for one and a half and you make two blades in your first year. Then you know, 

Yolanda Padron: you make a blade set, you’re done. 

Joel Saxum: Yeah. So they were worth a hundred million in market cap a year ago today. [00:22:00] So it’s like a 99.6% decrease since last year.

Allen Hall: When you file bankruptcy, stuff like that happens. Here’s gonna be the rub. Whoever decides to do whatever with it, they’re gonna have to have a lot of cash because I guarantee you vendors have not been paid or. Or vendors are asking for money upfront before they make a delivery, and that’s not the way that GE likes to operate.

GE likes to operate. I buy this thing and then six months later I pay you half and another six months later, I may pay the remaining half. They don’t like to pay things upfront and. It’s gonna be a problem. 

Joel Saxum: Net 180, and then on day 179, they’re gonna find a magic error in your invoice and it resets the clock.

Allen Hall: Australia’s wind farms are growing fast, but are your operations keeping up? Join us February 17th and 18th at Melbourne’s Poolman on the park for Wind Energy o and m Australia 2026, where you’ll connect with the [00:23:00] experts solving real problems in maintenance asset management and OEM relations. Walk away with practical strategies to cut costs and boost uptime that you can use the moment you’re back on site.

Register now at WM a 2020 six.com. Wind Energy o and m Australia is created by Wind professionals for wind professionals because this industry needs solutions, not speeches. So looking for something to do in February while America is in the middle of a winter snowstorm. You wanna go to Australia for?

Wind O and M Australia 2026 and it is going to be February, what, Joel? 

Joel Saxum: 17th and 18th at the Pullman on the park in sunny. Melbourne 

Allen Hall: and Rosemary, what’s on the schedule for the event in Sunny Australia? 

Rosemary Barnes: Well, it’s, uh, agenda just full of the topics that Australian operators are talking about at the moment.

Um, there’s, you are gonna be [00:24:00] topics on compliance. Um, also training is a, a big thing. Training and resources to get workforce up to speed. Um, also some on big data and ai, they’re catchy. Uh, yeah, hyped up terms. But can you actually do something useful with it? I mean, you definitely can, but how do you, um, and then just heaps of stuff about just specific asset management problems that people are having be a lot of talking about problems.

And there’s also gonna be a lot of talking about solutions. So that’s kind of the point. It’s the, it’s the place where you can get. Both sides. ’cause I think, yeah, both sides are very important. 

Joel Saxum: I think one, one of the things that is was good about the event last year and we’re excited about this year as well, is we tried to fit in as many networking opportunities as we could.

We’ve got a lot of coffee breaks. We’ve got breakfast, we’ve got a cocktail hour, we’ve got lunches, we’ve got all these things, and it’s kind of designed around keeping the whole crew together in one spot. So we’re able to share information, have those conversations. Oh, you have this asset. Oh, I [00:25:00] know this one.

Um, operators, speaking to operators, speaking to ISPs about specialties fixes. What are you doing? Could we implement that in our fleet? Those kind of things, right? And that’s about the, we, we talk on the podcast and in our daily lives regularly. Everybody here in the podcast is about collaboration and sharing information and sharing knowledge, and that’s the way that we’re gonna forward the, uh, industry.

So we’re really excited. Again, again, this is round two. We’re bringing this event down to Australia. Last year was great. I think we had basically every major operator represented, uh, at the event. And we’re gonna repeat that again this year. 

Rosemary Barnes: I really like the size of it. Last year, I think we were about 170 or 180, which was our limit for that, that event, we did sell out this year.

We, uh, increased that a little bit to 250. Um, but it’s a good size. It’s not like, I don’t know if there’s any other, um, introverts out there, but usually when I go to an event, I get so exhausted from just. Uh, I don’t know the, the pressure of if there’s [00:26:00] an exhibition hole that you’re supposed to wander around and, you know, like the last conference I went to had like probably 20 parallel streams and it’s just like, what am I supposed to see?

Oh, these sessions all sound similar, which is gonna be the good one. Um, and then you’re trying to meet up with people as well. This event, it’s targeted enough. It’s one session. You’re gonna find probably at least 95% of the sessions interesting if you are working in wind energy, o and m in Australia. So you just go there, you sit down, you watch the interesting information, and every single person that you run into when you at lunch or coffee or whatever, every every single person is gonna be someone you can have an interesting conversation with.

So it’s just. It’s a lot, uh, it’s a lot easier for someone who, I mean, you, Americans, you’re all, uh, it’s like national law, right? That you have to be extroverted. It’s not allowed to be any kind of other personality type in America. But in Australia, there’s a lot of, uh, a lot of introverts. And, uh, I would say that this is a much, much more introvert friendly event than [00:27:00] your typical big, big, broad conference.

Allen Hall: Well, you won’t want to miss Wilma 2026. In order to get, what are those 250 seats, you need to register and you need to register now. So visit wma w om a 2020 six.com and. Get signed in, get registered, and we’ll see you in Australia in February. That wraps up another episode of the Uptime Wind Energy Podcast.

Thanks for joining us as we explore the latest in wind energy technology and industry insights. If today’s discussion sparked any questions or ideas, we’d love to hear from you. Just reach out to us on LinkedIn and don’t forget to subscribe so you never miss an episode. And if you found value in today’s conversation.

Please leave us a review. It really helps other wind energy professionals discover the show and we’ll catch you here next week on the Uptime Wind Energy [00:28:00] Podcast.

Terra-Gen’s 238.5 MW project in Texas is now fully operational and the Philippines just awarded approvals for more than 10 GWs of renewables. Plus Nordex and Siemens Gamesa are optimistic about their future.

Sign up now for Uptime Tech News, our weekly email update on all things wind technology. This episode is sponsored by Weather Guard Lightning Tech. Learn more about Weather Guard’s StrikeTape Wind Turbine LPS retrofit. Follow the show on Facebook, YouTube, Twitter, Linkedin and visit Weather Guard on the web. And subscribe to Rosemary Barnes’ YouTube channel here. Have a question we can answer on the show? Email us!

There’s news from the wind industry this week. And for once… the headlines tell a story of growth. Down in Hidalgo County, Texas… something worth celebrating happened this week. Terra-Gen commissioned the Monte Cristo ONE Windpower Project. Two hundred thirty-eight-point-five megawatts. Fully operational. The wind facility will generate more than 850 gigawatt-hours of clean electricity every year. Enough to power roughly 81,000 homes. And the power? Already sold. Long-term purchase agreements with two corporate customers. Construction created about 280 jobs at peak activity. More than 490,000 work hours. Not one lost-time incident. They upgraded 11 miles of state roads. Twenty-five miles of county roads. Over its lifetime… the project will deliver more than 100 million dollars to the local community. Property taxes. Landowner payments. Other economic contributions. “It is an honor,” said John O’Connor, Chief Financial Officer for Terra-Gen, “to celebrate the hard work and dedication of the hundreds of men and women who made the commissioning of the Monte Cristo wind project possible.” Meanwhile… halfway around the world in the Philippines… the government just awarded approvals for more than 10 gigawatts of renewable power. That’s ten-point-two gigawatts, to be exact. One hundred twenty-three winning bidders. Solar. Storage. And wind. Onshore wind alone claimed two-point-five gigawatts of that capacity. Twenty-one projects. All set to deliver power by 2029. The Philippines is targeting 50 percent renewable generation by 2040. And they’re not waiting around. The “overwhelming response,” said the department of energy, “reflects the growing confidence of investors.” Back in Europe… in Germany… Nordex is making moves. The turbine manufacturer just secured orders for 123 megawatts from Denkerwulf. Twenty-five onshore wind turbines. Installation begins in 2027. Commissioning in 2028. And Nordex shares? They’re climbing. Hit a multi-year high this week. Trading at 28 euros and 2 cents. Denkerwulf’S orders for Nordex in 2025 now total nearly 144 megawatts. And last week… Mingyang signed a contract with ORE Catapult… a state-owned British test center. They’re going to test main bearings for Mingyangs offshore 18.5MW turbines in the United Kingdom. “A major milestone,” said Mingyang’S chief technology officer for Europe, Marc Sala. “A decisive breakthrough for our local operations.” Mingyang has big plans for Britain. One-point-five billion pounds in investments. Half for factories. Half for the offshore wind supply chain. Now… over at Siemens Gamesa… things are looking up. The wind business has been struggling. Over four fiscal years… losses totaled eight-point-six billion euros. But Chief Executive Officer Christian Bruch confirmed this week… they’re still targeting profitability by 2027. Break-even by 2026. Revenue for full-year 2025 rose 5 percent to ten-point-three-seven-five billion euros. Losses improved slightly. “The journey towards profitability is going to take time,” said Chief Financial Officer Maria Ferraro. “But I think the team is doing a great job.” They expect a positive fourth quarter in 2026. So there you have it. The wind industry is pushing forward. Two hundred thirty-eight-point-five megawatts commissioned in Texas. One hundred twenty-three projects approved in the Philippines. One hundred twenty-three megawatts ordered in Germany. Eighteen-point-five megawatt turbines heading to Britain for testing. And Siemens Gamesa … now seeing light at the end of the tunnel. The numbers tell the story. Things are beginning to stabilize – and there’s hope for the future. That’s the state of the wind industry on the 17th of November 2025. Join us tomorrow for the Uptime Wind Energy podcast.

Morten Handberg, Principal Consultant at Wind Power LAB, joins the show to discuss the many variables within wind turbine blades that operators may not be aware of. From design to materials and operation, understanding your blades is crucial to making informed decisions in the field.

Sign up now for Uptime Tech News, our weekly email update on all things wind technology. This episode is sponsored by Weather Guard Lightning Tech. Learn more about Weather Guard’s StrikeTape Wind Turbine LPS retrofit. Follow the show on Facebook, YouTube, Twitter, Linkedin and visit Weather Guard on the web. And subscribe to Rosemary Barnes’ YouTube channel here. Have a question we can answer on the show? Email us!

Welcome to Uptime Spotlight, shining light on wind. Energy’s brightest innovators. This is the progress Powering tomorrow.

Allen Hall: Morten, welcome back to the program. 

Morten Handberg: Thank you so much, Allen. It’s fantastic to be back. It’s, uh, I really, really happy to be back on the show to discuss blades with you guys. 

Allen Hall: So you’re a resident blade whisperer, and we wanted to talk about the differences between types of blades even within the same manufacturer, because I think there’s a lot of misunderstanding if I buy a specific OEM turbine that I’m getting the same design all the time, or even just the same basic materials are that are used.

That’s not the case anymore. 

Morten Handberg: No, I mean, there’s always been variations. Uh, so the B 90 is a very good example because initially was, was released with, uh, with the, with the glass fiber spark cap. [00:01:00] But at later iterations it was, then they then switched it to carbon fiber for, for, for larger, for larger turbines, for higher rated power.

But it, it, but it sort of gave that you were not a hundred percent sure. When you initially looked at it, was this actually a ca a glass fiber, uh, beam or a carbon fiber was only when you started to learn the integral, you know, what, what to read in, in the naming convention that you could understand it.

But it caused a little confusion about, you know, I’m looking at glass fiber blade or, or a carbon fiber blade. So it’s been there for a while, but we’re seeing it more and more pronounced with, um. Uh, OEMs changing to signs, uh, or OEMs merging together, but keeping their integral design for, for, for various purposes.

And then for the, for the, for the people, not in, uh, not in the loop or not looking behind the curtain. They don’t, you don’t know, know, know the difference. So I think it’s really important that we, that we sort of highlight some of those things to make it easier for people to, to, to know, to know this.

Allen Hall: There was a generational change. [00:02:00] Uh, even in the 1.5 megawatt class. There were some blades that were fiberglass and then they, there was a trend to move to carbon fiber to make them lighter, but then the designers got better and started putting fiberglass in, where now you have 70 meter blades that are fiberglass worth 35 meter blades, may have had carbon.

Yeah, it’s hard to keep up with it. 

Morten Handberg: You know, it’s really difficult to know. I mean, for, for, for the longer blades, it’s becoming more and more pronounced that they will be, uh, there will be carbon fiber reinforced. But a good, uh, example of where it doesn’t really apply is actually with, uh, with Siemens cesa.

Because if you look at Siemens, Cade said, you know, it’s, it’s Siemens, uh, the original OEM Siemens at the original OEM Cade that merged. Quite a few years back, but you know, we still see the very sharp, uh, difference between the two different designs because whenever you install a Siemens Esso turbine offshore, it’s the Siemens integral blade, it will.

And, and they kept that, [00:03:00] uh, and that blade is produced in one cast, it’s called the Integral Blade because that’s their inherited design. And there are no adhesive bond blinds in that. Uh, so all laminated is consolidated. It’s all cast in one go, and then whatever kings and small, uh, defects there, then repaired on factory before they ship offshore.

These are pure glass fiber plate that has not changed at all. So that’s sort of the, uh, how do you say, uh, the one that, that, uh, that is outside the norm that we see today. But the Gaza part of it, they, they’ve kept for onshore purposes, they kept their design using, uh, adhered shells or adhered bond lines.

So they would have two, uh, share webs and then two shells, uh, that are then, that are then, then, uh, glued together, uh, at the bond lines, on the share, on the trading edge, and on the leading edge. With carbon re, re reinforcement. Um, so that is a massive different design within one [00:04:00] OEM and often when people say, well, we have a problem with the Siemens commes blade, which one?

Uh, so then it’s very, very important to understand, you know, what blade type, you know, what, what, what turbine model it is because then we can pretty easily drive it, or even for just know the wind farm because. If it’s offshore, we pretty much, you know, we can, we, we know already. We just need to know the what, what, what size of turbine is, and derive what blade type it is.

Onshore becomes a bit more pro problematic because then you need to know, you know, at what, when was it erected, because then, you know, it can be both, but. If you don’t know, then it will just be presented as a Siemens cesa. So it’s really important to keep, uh, in check, uh, when, when, when, when, when looking at that.

So that’s a, so that’s a very important distinction that, that we need, need to understand when the child, when determining blade damages, 

Allen Hall: right, because the type of damage, the integral blade would suffer really completely different than the sort of the ESA bonded design. I was looking at blades in Oklahoma recently that were integral from like a two megawatt machine, and it, it [00:05:00] looks completely different when you walk up to that blade.

You can tell that it’s cast in one piece. It’s very interesting to see, but that makes it, I think the, the thing about those blades is that it’s a little more manufacturing cost to, to make ’em that way, but. They are, uh, tend to be a little more rugged out in service, right? 

Morten Handberg: Well, they’re, they’re definitely heavier because of the, the manufacturing process that they go through.

Um, they’re more robust. We, I think we can, we can, we can see that from a track record, uh, in general. Um, but they’re, but the trade off is that they are a lot, they’re heavier. So that means that the, that the components that are used in the Drivetrain Tower Foundation, they’re equally heavier. So you pay the price in the, uh, in the cost of the turbine.

But, uh, overall on the, on the mainland side, we do see less, at least some structural damages and if something really bad happens, so, uh, the trailing edge more often, not it’s kept to the, to the tip or on that part of the trailing edge. So, so, uh, so [00:06:00] the, the, the blade structure keeps together better, um, because of this consolidation of the laminates.

Allen Hall: Right, and the, the traditional ESA design, I’ll call it, has been a bonded design for a long time. The issue with bond lines is there is no peel ply stoppage, so there’s no fasteners in it, in case it starts to come apart, it’ll continue to peel, and that’s what we typically call a banana peel when it really goes bad.

The blade splits in two. Once it starts, it really doesn’t have a way to stop. And I think that’s why inspection is so important on those bonded blades. Right? 

Morten Handberg: Yeah. Actually, 1, 1, 1 1, 1, 1 small thing. Uh, peel ply is actually something that’s used in laminate production to, uh, to you apply it when you’re casting, you laminate typically for repair.

Then when you peel it off. The surface is fresh and clean, and then you can, you can continue working it, adding more, more mobilely or, or new coating. So it removes some, uh, lamination or some grinding process that will otherwise be needed, has no structural purpose in it, [00:07:00] uh, just to kill that myth of, but you’re right.

Uh, when you have an adhere blade for any, for any manufacturer, for any purpose. If you have a, uh, if you have a deep bonding that starts, then it can, it can, depending on the location, it can grow really fast because you don’t have the same consolidation. You do have some bike layers that would add over, but it doesn’t have the same integral strength that you would see with the, uh, with the consolidated laminate.

Allen Hall: So that’s a big difference. And if you’re looking at blades, and if you haven’t. Looked inside of a hub and looked inside the blade. You, you may not even know. And I think that does happen to a lot of engineers that they, because they, they’re dealing with a thousand blades a lot of times the blade engineers, it’s crazy what they’re asked to go do.

You just can’t know all the details all the time. But just knowing these top level things can really help you suss out like where to start. And, and, and even on the inspection res regimes would on an integral blade type design, are you doing different kinds of inspections than you would do on a standard kind of.

Mesa bonded up design? 

Morten Handberg: I would [00:08:00] say not actually. I mean, you would still, you would still do, uh, you, you’ll still do internal inspections because, um, you can still have defect developing. They would be, uh, slower, uh, growing in general, um, compared to a, uh, to a more thin skin laminate, uh, type blade. But, but the inspection methodology is, is more, less the same.

You would do an external inspection to check for lighting damages wearing of, uh, coating. So erosion. Any kind of structural damage in developing over the shell, uh, surfaces. And internally, you would check the bond lines, uh, because even though they’re consolidated, there is still, uh, they, they, they still have a, have a bonding, uh, an in laminate bonding.

So you want to check if that is okay. Um, and you wanna see if there’s any, uh, any defects developing in the shoulder area from breathing or from, or any kind of manufacturing defect. So it’s not that. Not that you will. Yeah. That you will then, you know, set it up and then you can let it run forever without looking at it.

You d do need to do maintenance, [00:09:00] um, but if you do proactive maintenance, you can then, then you, you will detect it in time and you can do more, uh, reactive repairs. 

Allen Hall: Yeah. And what’s the difference in repair costs between a integral blade where it’s all cast at one time versus a, a bonded design? Does it tend to be a little less expensive because it’s maybe a little localized than a.

Uh, a bonded type shear web design. 

Morten Handberg: Well, if the damage affect multiple parts of shear web and, uh, and beam and shell, it will always be a very extreme, very costly repair, regardless of what, whatever blade type it is. Integral blades, I would say typically will likely be more expensive if you have a structural damage, but that’s just because of the sheer number of flies that will be affected because for a, for a thin skin laminate blade.

While the damage can be, can be much larger, the amount of layers that you need to remove will be less. So I would, I would always, I, I would, I would consider it more likely that the repair costs for, for a, [00:10:00] uh, for adhesive bond line blade to have a lower repair cost for the same type of damage that we see an integral blade.

But the integral plate will more, will, will, will have less of them, and you will also be able to detect them earlier. So the chance of preparing. Is higher on an integral plate is what I would normally that, that, that’s how I would normally, you know, pro think of it. 

Allen Hall: Okay. That’s that’s good to know. Can we talk carbon protrusions and knowledge of them because it, it has seemed like over time there was, they were really hot in like the mid two thousands, into the 10 20, 10 20 12, 20 15 ish, and then it kinda went away for a little bit ’cause of the cost and now they’re coming back again because of the links.

It’s really. Important that you know if your blades have carbon in them, correct? 

Morten Handberg: Yes. Um, one because, uh, carbon is more rigid, um, than, than than glass fiber. It is, uh, it is, it is multiple the times, multiple times stronger than glass fiber. That’s also why it’s favorable to use, [00:11:00]because you can produce a, a longer blade while, um, minimizing the weight increase that you would have.

Um, so that is a very, uh, that is a very appealing trait to have. The problem with carbon is two things. One, it is a, uh, conducted material, which means that it does, uh, create a, um, a mag, uh, how do you say, magnetic seal, if there’s any kind of, uh. Lightning activity if there’s any static develop, uh, uh, buildup inside the blade.

So that can be, that can cause its own set of problems and something where you have to be very observant of what, what kind of LPS system you have and what, what kind of lightning conditions you have. The second part is. Carbon fiber is so rigid. Then that also means if you have any kind of manufacturing defect, the effect of it is multiplied.

Um, because carbon fiber doesn’t, it doesn’t have the same elasticity. Glass fiber is very forgiving if you have a defect there. While it will develop over time [00:12:00] at some point for a large part of the time, they, because it’s so elastic, the loads they get distributed better. For carbon, it will centralize around the, the manufacturing defect and will just grow.

And once it starts growing, then it will, it will expand rapidly. So that’s also why when we see a, a, um, a blade damage where the defect started in the carbon spot, the the blade is simply just cut off. It’s simply like someone just took. Took a, uh, took a hacksaw and then cut the, the blade, uh, blade, blade section off because the, the, because of the rapid growth of that defect.

Um, so that, that’s sort of the, the trade off, but that’s also why we have to be even more observant. If an OEM is using carbon fiber to reinforce it, that they do NDT off their, um, off their blades before sending ’em out. And they do quality control off the protrusions when they receive them so that the owner doesn’t take over an inherited risk.

So that, I would really say that if you have wind turbines with carbon fiber, [00:13:00] if you’re planning to build them. You should make sure that there, that NDT is done, because you cannot verify this by visual. It’s, you know, if you can see them, that’s great, but it, it’s not a guarantee that there is nothing there.

Um, and the amount of defect that we see out there that does suggest that this is, this is not a, uh, a nice to have. It’s an absolute must to, must, must do to do NDT. 

Allen Hall: Yeah, the carbon protrusions, if you looked at that process, it’s not a easy process, but they’re trying to orient the fiber in one direction all the time, and even slight variations can reduce the strength inside the protrusion.

So it becomes critical that the quality of the protrusion is good and, and the reason they. Make protrusions is to lower the cost. So the protrusion itself is really set into this fiberglass shell. So you’re really, you have merging two technologies together, which always doesn’t always work as well as you would want it to work.

But it has gotten, at least in my opinion, Morgan, and that’s why I’m asking you. Has it gotten better over time that we’ve gotten used to using [00:14:00]protrusions and are better at and applying them and in and maintaining them? At this point? 

Morten Handberg: I think the OEMs are really good at using them in designs. I think they’ve done a really good job at using, utilizing the carbon fiber to its maximum potential, uh, to build blades that are plus a hundred meters.

Uh, what we have to be make sure is that whatever we then do in manufacturing quality control, operation maintenance. That adheres to the, to the same standard that would apply in design. So, you know, that that’s sort of the, that, that, that’s sort of the crux of it. Because if you, if you, if you design something perfect and then you have more, you know, how do you say it more, you know, less, uh, pristine approach to when you’re manufacturing or when you’re servicing it, then you know it, then it causes problem down, problems down the line.

Um, because. It will need maintenance, it will need very strict project control. So that’s why we have to be very vigilant. 

Allen Hall: And I wanna talk about the difference between box beams and sort of standard [00:15:00] share. Web I beams, I’ll call ’em, that we typically see a lot more of today. There’s a number of blades, particularly early on that were box beam.

And when I talk to operators of these terms that have box beams and I say, Hey, do you have a box beam? I don’t, I don’t know. I don’t know. Uh, but those blades act uniquely different than sort of the blades we’re buying today, right? 

Morten Handberg: Well, the B Beam is still in production. You can still acquire a turbine with a box beam in it.

It’s a, uh, it’s a investor design. It’s something that they invented, that they’ve used for ages, uh, decades. Uh, uh, think that goes all the way back to some of the first way business space. So it’s a very, uh, it’s, it’s a very strong design that they’ve utilized for, for. For the history of Vestas. Um, and it was originally a carbon based spark cap in a box beam.

There was a, it was a closed square that was a elongated. So, um, and then narrowing as you get further to the tip, uh, and then later on with the B [00:16:00] 90, they introduced carbon fiber protrusions instead of glass cyber in it to make it stronger and also enable building longer blades, but while keeping the low weight, because that’s really where they won a lot, is that they could keep extremely low blade weights.

And thereby very light turbines. Uh. While still, uh, uh, uh, how do you say producing, uh, having the same rated power as an equivalent turbine from any other m So that was really a, a, a, a unique design that this they had or have. Um, so the, if you want to know, if you have a box beam blade or an SST blade, you simply just have to look inside the plate.

It’s very easy. Uh, if you have a bucketing plate, all you will see is a, is a, is a square. Um, where at and, and you know, at, at a large tunnel and nothing else, if you have an I-beam with one or two share webs, if you look inside the blade, you will see, see these two share webs, but you also see the chamber and the trailing edge.

And in the leading edge. And that’s because it’s an open design. [00:17:00] So it’s actually very easy to detect if you have one or the other. But they’re very different from each other, uh, in a lot of other senses. Um, the. The box beam design is inherently non-structural shells. The, the blade shells are really, really thin, also very easy to repair because they’re so thin, but they’re very thin because the, all the loads is taken up by the box beam.

For the SST or the eye beam design, the loads are, while still thin skin relative is taken up more load. But, and, and in the design, they’re considered as being part of the load carrying structure. So you have to be more observant of maintaining the shell structure as well as the, as as the, the, how do you say, the low carrying structure on an, on an, uh, SST or I beam Blade.

Then you had to on a, on a box beam. And a good example of this is that you sometimes see that blade shields coming apart, coming apart on, um, on, on, on blade damages. And what is unique for [00:18:00] the i, for, for the box beam is that the box beam will just stay in place. It doesn’t it? It’s. Basically the, the turbine doesn’t seem, seem to care if it’s there or not.

It will just continue operating. Uh, so, so you can have, uh, shells, uh, part of the shell missing for a period of time. And the you, they only notice because, you know, you look up and then, hey, part of the, part of the blades look like it is looking like a, like a pine cone, a squirrel chew that, uh, because the part of the, the, uh, the shelves are missing and it, it’s quite weird.

Um, but, but that, that is how it is. 

Allen Hall: Box beams. SST, that all makes sense to me. Uh, one of the things that we’re running into more recently is as blades get longer and the costs go up and the risk goes up along with it, as the blades get longer, of course, uh, there’s there’s much more instrumentation going on to the blades in the manufacturing process.

So now we’re seeing. Uh, thermal couples being applied during the manufacturing process to verify that [00:19:00] everything is cured out properly, which is a wonderful thing to do, honestly, in the manufacturing area, but. If they’re not removed, and I think more recently we have seen some thermocouples left in blades.

It can become a problem later on in life. 

Morten Handberg: Well, I mean, uh, it’s actually something that’s been used for, for quite a while. It is, uh, thermocouples is something you would use to verify that your adhesive have seen the right curing temperature to make sure that it has the right mechanical properties. Which makes a lot of sense.

Um, obviously, you know, as an electrical engineers, you are, you know, you, you would know that, you know any, any, uh, conductive material. Whenever ex uh, and lighting expert, then when exposed to a lightning current will start to generate its own ma own magnetic fields that will, uh, that will on its own, uh, create a potential problem because then the, um, then, then they will start to react with each other.

And that can cause, um, that can cause risk of flashover, uh, it can cause lighting attachment [00:20:00] on its own. And that really applies to any kind of conductive component that you would have in your plate. Including your carbon beams. Uh, it’s not something that is unique for, for cabling inside the blades. It’s actually also something that if you have sense installation that you have to be very concerned about, you know, if you’re installing it.

How will it then, you know, react with the LPS system so that your census don’t start to become a flashover points that you introduce that. So that’s something that typically, uh, especially OEMs, they’re very concerned about, uh, that how will it interact with the LPS system and how will it interact with their carbon reinforcement?

And I think that’s fair. Um, how widespread an issue it is that we see flashover, I don’t know that many cases, but again. We don’t want to just install a lot and then find out there was a problem later on. You know, that’s really what we as an industry cloud should start to move away from. So I think there’s lot of good sense if you want, you know, I’m a big proponent for condition monitoring, but I [00:21:00] also am a big opponent that we need to verify things and understand the risk before starting to instrument their left and right.

Um. And for carbon fiber, fiber blades, you know, if they’re not integrated into the LPS system, that means that then they will, they will have their, they, they will create, create their own magnetic field during a lightning search. And that can then cause flash overs that we’ve seen with some, uh, historic and some, uh, current.

Models. Um, but the problem is, is is there for any carbon blade if the LPS system is not designed with intent, that to handle any, um, any lightning issues in, in the carbon fibers. 

Allen Hall: And I think it gets down to inspection and regimes and timing depending on what is inside of your blade or, and even how it’s constructed.

In my opinion. I think what I see from operators is based upon their knowledge of what is happening in the blade. They’ll, uh, add a internal rover or drone, not internal, maybe sometimes internal drone, but usually a rover, [00:22:00] uh, will go inside the blade and start taking pictures. That has become more prevalent, I’d say in the last two years where you hear of full campaigns, and I know down in Brazil, earth, wind does them all the time down in Brazil because the, they have a capacity factor over 50%, so the blades are really getting used.

Those internal inspections have been eye-opening in, in terms of. Detecting problems early, and is that, is that where we’re headed right now is that we just need to know visually what’s going on more because the, the blade variations, OEM to OEM and factory to factory, that we just need to have a little more monitoring for a while until we get into an alignment.

Morten Handberg: I think that inspections is a symptom of not having the right tools to, to monitor. Not wanting the right tools to monitor because if we had condition monitoring and every blade, and every blade was fitted at with it from birth, we would know a lot more about what’s going on in the blades from day one.

And that will also mean that we would know if [00:23:00] two or three or five blades in a, in a 15, uh, turbine wind farm had problems we could focus on inspection regime on that. So, but right now, because we don’t have that, then we need to, to roll out a very large, very complex, uh, inspection regimes that takes a lot of downtime, is very expensive because we don’t have the necessary dataset to, to, uh, to, to determine accurately which turbines are actually at risk.

So I think it’s more of a symptom of, of the need for, for, for CMS. Um, I’m not, I’m not have nothing against rovers. I think they’re great for what they do, but I would prefer that we use them for these specific issues instead of having it as a, as a, as a major rollout over the entire wind farm. 

Allen Hall: Oh, I, I agree with you there.

I think CMS is getting utilized more and more and more, and, and in fact, uh, as we talked to operators this year, because of, of rule changes in the United States, a lot of operators in the United States are now moving to a CMS system that they previously probably wouldn’t have done, [00:24:00] uh, because of the lifetime of the blade.

Right. So that, that’s something that I think. Uh, Denmark and Europe has done so much better. And Morton, you’re in the middle of all that, being based in Denmark, that CMS is a way of life, uh, on a lot of turbines in Europe and, but in the States and other places, even Australia, it, it may not be that widely used.

Morten Handberg: Well, I would say for the Australian market where we’ve done some work, they are, uh, very positive towards CMS and we know, we know quite a few operators that are actively either looking into it or looking at it from the, from day one in their wind farms. Uh, operators in Europe, I would say we we’re still not there yet.

Owners, there are some owners that are installing it, um, actively. It’s not something that, you know, we’re not seeing on the majority of the wind farm shed. It’s not, it’s not commonplace. It’s still, I would say, compared to the amount of turbines we have, it’s still a novelty. So our, I’m, I’m still, I’m, it’s still one of my, uh, my, uh, month, uh, how do you say my, uh, catchphrases [00:25:00] when I come out to onus and we’re talking about the problems, is that, you know, you can hand your blood damages, uh, on X, Y, and z.

You know, going forward, if you want to catch ’em early on or you want to understand them better, how they affect your blade, you need to look into CMS. Um, and again, it’s, there are a lot of good CMS options out there. A lot of them have actually been, been verified and, uh. I would say, you know, some higher tier systems, they make a lot of sense.

They give you a lot more data, but it’s, you know, something is better than nothing. I would say, let’s get some data in, let’s get started on the process. Let’s get some learnings, and then we can develop the technology. If we’re always waiting for the perfect system, then we’ll never get anywhere. 

Allen Hall: I’m gonna bring up zero defects because I think this is all headed towards zero defects and we’ve, we’ve talked to a number of operators in the last six months who say to themselves.

In my, uh, TSA, I had a serial defect clause, but we missed the window opportunity. Usually it’s a year or two and you have to show a certain percentage. It’s like 25% have this [00:26:00] problem. If you’re not measuring a turbine or blade or anything on your, you will never figure out if you have a serial defect, and, and particularly if you don’t know what the architecture of each blade is, you won’t be able to connect the dots of these blades made at a particular factory, have this issue.

CMS becomes really vital in, in that aspect. As we’re putting billions of dollars into a farm, the value return is very high. 

Morten Handberg: Yes, I would say so. The problem is that for a lot of operators then the operational margins, they’re very low. So if you don’t get it installed, uh, during CapEx, then to find budget for it during oex is something that’s really, is really hurting.

Uh, the budget and, and, and, you know, with elec the electricity prices in a lot of places being really low, then there might be a need for it, but it’s really difficult for to, to find a, a budget for it, that, that can then send that investment unless there is some really something really critical where it says it’s a do or die [00:27:00] thing.

Um. So, so I would, I would agree with you, yes. For, you know, it’s something that can help us identify if there is, uh, serial issues, because then the defect will develop and, you know, even if there is a serial issue, it can help us prevent the worst case scenario that the, that we see blade collapses, blades being replaced.

So, so there’s a lot of, you know, downstream, uh, um, advantages of, uh, of installing CMS and I, I truly believe that it will help us with the green transition as well, because as you know, with the number of blades that we’re replacing right now, you know, you know, scrapping blades is not green transition. If we can prolong lives, if we can repair them in, in, in due time, that’s how we get to, to, uh, to a green transition where the, where wind industry becomes profitable and affordable and where it’s, it, you don’t create an issue for some part of the industries, uh, because it’s a big problem for owners.

It’s a big problem for insurance [00:28:00] companies that we see this big turnover of blades because of, of catastrophic damages. So more, the more we can do to prolong life of blades. Prevent damages from happening or capture damages early on, and then get them repaired, will, will really help that, uh, uh, that move moving forward.

Allen Hall: Wow. That’s why we love having you on Morton because you can explain the complex and simple terms, and I think you’re right. You, you’re moving the industry. Uh, you’re recommendations are, are being heard by operators and by OEMs. I think. The industry is changing, and that’s great to hear. Morton, how do people get ahold of you?

Is it best to reach you on LinkedIn? 

Morten Handberg: Well, either LinkedIn or you can also reach me on my, um, on my company email, MEH, at wind power app.com. Uh, that, that would be the, the far easiest way to get in. Hold me to, uh, uh, uh, where we can discuss any kind of late issues you might have. Always happy to, to support any owners or insurance insurers.

Allen Hall: More than I love having you on. We gotta have you on sooner next time and, and keep talking to these issues because a lot of [00:29:00] operators are struggling and there’s so much technology being applied to blades. We need to have you back on pretty soon. 

Morten Handberg: Absolutely. I would love to be on to, uh, uh, to, to explain more complex issues and to puncture more, more myths.

Let, let’s do it.