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In almost thirty years of following the world of U.S. legal education, from applying to law schools in fall 1995 to covering them today as a journalist, I don’t think I have seen as consequential a time as the current one. To explain the whirlwind of recent developments, I sought out two of my favorite observers of the legal academy: Dan Rodriguez, former dean of the Northwestern University Pritzker School of Law, and Anna Ivey, former admissions dean at the University of Chicago Law School.

When I asked them to join me, I selected as our topic the U.S. News law school rankings—specifically, the withdrawal of dozens of schools from the rankings, followed by the announcement of significant revisions to the rankings methodology. But it’s impossible to discuss the rankings in a vacuum, so we wound up having a wide-ranging discussion that touched on two other possible major changes—abandonment of the LSAT (or any other test) as an admissions requirement, and an end to affirmative action—and the future of legal education more generally.

How do Anna Ivey and and Dan Rodriguez really feel about the U.S. News rankings? As former rather than current deans, they spoke freely and didn’t pull their punches. And are they worried or hopeful about what lies in store for U.S. law schools? Find out, in this new installment of the Original Jurisdiction podcast.