Peter Gray, professor of psychology and neuroscience at Boston College, wrote the following in the Washington Post. “I began to look at research, which showed and documented that beginning as early as the 1960s until now, there has been a continuous, gradual but huge increase in anxiety, depression, and, most tragically, suicide among school-aged children and teens. Over that period of time, children have also been less and less free to do the things that make them happy and build the kind of character traits — of confidence, of internal locus of control, of agency — that allow them to feel like ‘the world is not too scary, because I can handle what life throws at me.’ This kind of attitude requires independent activity to develop, and we have been offering less and less of that activity.” 

Peter Gray’s powerful words are the perfect way to introduce today’s conversation with Pam Moran and Ira David Socol, two educators who have spent their careers pushing on a simple idea that feels obvious once you say it out loud: school should help young people find their voice, build real agency, and guide them as they learn how to influence their world and shape their futures. 

Pam led Albemarle County Public Schools in Virginia from 2006 to 2018, a long run in superintendent years, and she was named Virginia Superintendent of the Year by the Virginia Association of School Superintendents.

Ira has lived an unusually wide-angle life in service, including work in New York City public safety and decades in public education as a technology and innovation leader, with a deep focus on Universal Design for Learning and environments that work for every kid. 

Together, they have written and edited books that refuse to treat school as a neutral machine. In Timeless Learning, with co author Chad Ratliff, they argue that we should stop mistaking “great teaching” for learning, and instead redesign learning experiences so kids have choices, purpose, and time to do work that matters. In Designed to Fail, Ira makes the tougher claim; a lot of what we call school was built to sort, to rank, and to protect comfort for adults and advantage for some kids. 

And in their newest book, an edited volume titled Real Learning, Real Accomplishment: Schools that Work for Kids, Pam and Ira gather stories from educators across the country who are moving from compliance to mastery, not by chasing one more initiative, but by changing the ecosystem, the expectations, the schedules, the spaces, the assessment, and the relationships that shape what kids actually experience. 

So that is where we are headed. We are going to talk about student voice as more than a slogan. We are going to talk about what it means to trust kids, and what it costs when we do not. And we are going to keep pulling the conversation back to the practical question that sits under everything they do: How do we design and create systems of learning that put the learning in the hands of the young learners, with the adults on the side as coaches, mentors, guides and sponsors? One of the answers you will hear in the next hour is that we adults must, must, must do this design and development with the learners. We must treat them as co-creators and co-designers. Truly, we must Just Say Yes.

If you have thoughts or insights on this episode email me at [email protected]. Our audio engineer is the talented Evan Kurohara. Our theme music is provided by the master pianist, Michael Sloan.

Courtney Joly-Lowdermilk is the founder and lead consultant of the Massachusetts based LLC, Bridge Educational Engineering, where she partners with schools, towns, and organizations to design cultures of belonging that strengthen engagement, performance, and retention. Her career sits at the intersection of education, disability access, and mental health—spanning classroom teaching, student support, and a decade leading college mental-health education. She helped design and build NITEO, a structured leave-and-return pathway for young adults navigating disability and mental-health challenges, and she’s authored practical guidance that makes pausing—and coming back—more humane. She’s partnered with more than 100 teams to shift programs, practices, and policies toward dignity and access. We begin by exploring where Courtney’s energy comes from, meaning that time during elementary school selling popcorn at her grandmother’s bingo hall, or later learning to read a room, and carrying that “be useful” through-line into a career built around people. From there, we head into the deep end: what it actually takes to make belonging operational. Courtney shares the design moves she’s seen turn compliance culture into places where people risk honesty, ask for help, and feel at home. Then we get into the radical idea hiding in plain sight: interruption. What happens when a young person needs to pause—and how do we build the return so it doesn’t become a cliff? Courtney draws from her work with leave-and-reentry pathways to name what makes a pause feel heavy versus what makes it a bridge back. In the second half, Courtney joins us as one of the featured voices in Ted Dintersmith’s new documentary, Multiple Choice. We talk about that simple sign on her office wall—“Work Hard And Be Nice To People”—and the not-so-simple question beneath it: how do families support ambition without becoming “college pushers” or shrinking a kid’s world into a single story of success? We widen the lens to a culture that’s drifted from “fix the schools” to “fix the kids,” and Courtney brings her REACH framework to the role confusion at the center of it. We even dip into the AI urgency narrative—what ticking-clock stories do to teen nervous systems—and what healthier, more human adult moves look like. We close with David Yeager’s 10 to 25 and the mentor mindset—high standards, high support—plus moments that reveal who Courtney is off the page: motherhood, a suitcase note that reads “good luck mommy,” and a shout-out that brings us back to her roots. It’s a conversation about agency, dignity, and designing the conditions for thriving. As always, this show is edited by the very talented Evan Kurohara.

If you visit WhatSchoolCouldBe.org, you’ll see The Innovation Playlist—a practical change model built on small steps that elevate learning and life outcomes by bringing communities together around a shared North Star, trusting teachers to lead, building on successes and best practices, and fueling the joyful, creative work of challenging students in ways that prepare them for life; the model includes five playlists aligned with the foundational themes of What School Could Be: mobilizing your community, student-driven learning, real-world challenges, assessments for deeper learning, and caring and connected communities. Remix #5 follows the familiar Remix format—an audio mosaic of short, potent moments from the archive that still vibrate with relevance—but this time my co-producer and I played a “favorite three” game, each choosing three guests who hadn’t been featured in a remix yet whose ideas stayed lodged in our minds and hearts; these aren’t necessarily the flashiest episodes or the ones with the most downloads, but the ones we kept referencing in side conversations, quietly sharing with friends, and returning to when we needed to remember why this work matters. If you’re new to the show, think of this as a curated highlight reel; if you’ve been with me awhile, it’s a year-end reunion with voices that helped shape where this podcast has gone. Across the hour, you’ll hear system leaders, classroom educators, builders, and families all wrestling with a shared question—what if school were truly organized around human flourishing, not just compliance and coverage?—with threads on student agency and durable learning, assessment that reflects what kids can actually do, youth mental health and the cultures we build at home and in classrooms, the power of community partnerships, and the courage to move beyond “this is the way we’ve always done it,” and together these six voices offer not a blueprint but a playlist for possibility you can carry back to your own context, whether that’s a classroom, a district office, a nonprofit, a campus, or a kitchen table where schooling is the topic of conversation. My co-producer, Mel Ching, who arranged the sequence, calls Remix #5 a Heart-Centered Arc—moving intentionally from the most intimate layer of learning (love, relationship, presence, and the stories that shape us) to broader frames of agency, trust, and system design, and finally to the visionary possibilities of imagination and investment in young people—like a circle of mentors: human first, then conceptual, then expansive—so settle in as we dive into Remix #5 of the What School Could Be podcast.As always, our episodes are edited by the amazing Evan Kurohara, with theme music by Michael Sloan.

There’s a moment in Roman Krznaric’s The Good Ancestor when he invites us to imagine the builders of medieval cathedrals: craftspeople who chiseled stone, hoisted beams, and shaped stained glass with the knowing certainty that they would never worship inside the completed structure. They worked not for immediate applause but for the generations they would never meet. Their legacy lived in the shadows cast by soaring buttresses, in the echoes of future choirs, in the possibility that one day, long after they were gone, someone would look up and feel awe. Krznaric calls this cathedral thinking: a way of acting that stretches our sense of responsibility far beyond the boundaries of our own lifetimes. It’s the discipline of slowing down enough to ask, “How will what I’m doing today ripple outward? What future am I shaping with the choices I make right now?” It’s a call to be not just good professionals or good leaders, but good ancestors. In education, this idea lands with particular force. So much of the work of learning—and of transforming systems of learning—has a delayed return on investment. Policies outlast policymakers. Classroom moments echo decades later in a student’s life. Innovations begun in one community can reshape what’s possible for learners across an entire generation. And the most courageous educators I know operate with an awareness that they are, in fact, building cathedrals: structures of opportunity, belonging, confidence, and human potential. That’s why, in my intake form, I ask a question about ancestor-work. I’m curious about the projects, commitments, or quiet acts of devotion that feel like cornerstones, things my guests are building that may not be fully realized until long after they’ve stepped away. And for this remix episode, I went back to six former guests who responded to that prompt with uncommon clarity, humility, and hope. Their answers were not just descriptions of work; they were expressions of purpose, of stewardship, of long-view leadership. What you’ll hear in the next hour is a mosaic of cathedral thinkers. People who are shaping systems and communities not for personal credit, but for the learners who will come long after any of us. Their voices remind us that the real measure of impact is time, not quarters, not school years, but generations. So if you are ready, I am ready. And if you have insights or questions, email me at [email protected], which is my podcast contact. As always, my gratitude to Mel Ching, the co-producer of these remixed episodes, Evan Kurohara, my talented editor, and Michael Sloan, the pianist whose music graces this show.

If you navigate to WhatSchoolCouldBe.org, you will find in the nav bar the words, The Innovation Playlist. What is this? The Innovation Playlist is a powerful change model based on small steps that elevate learning and life outcomes. It brings your community together to build consensus on your North Star. It trusts teachers to lead the way, build on successes, draw on best practices, and do what you take joy in, challenging your students in creative, distinctive ways that prepare them for life. One of the playlists is called student-driven learning. Imagine your children, your students, fueled by intrinsic curiosity and motivation, enthusiastically learning without your constant oversight? Student-driven learning gives educators the time to truly guide, inspire, and encourage deeper learning. When we empower students to do bold, creative work, they develop distinctive higher-order competencies. Yet, creative work demands different, more authentic assessments. In this 3rd 2025 remix my co-producer, Mel Ching and I focus on the voices of students I interviewed over the past few years. These are young learners who have struggled in traditional learning environments, but thrived when immersed in student-driven learning and the quest to be assessed deeply, and authentically. These are young people who refuse to be sorted and ranked by standardized test scores. They live and breathe relevant, authentic learning spaces, both inside and outside of this thing we call school. So if you are ready, I am ready. As always, if you have insights or questions, email me at [email protected], which is my podcast contact. The What School Could Be Podcast is edited by the very talented Evan Kurohara. Our theme music comes of the catalog of pianist, Michael Sloan.

If you navigate to WhatSchoolCouldBe.org, you will find in the nav bar the words, The Innovation Playlist. What is this? The Innovation Playlist is a powerful change model based on small steps that elevate learning and life outcomes. It brings your community together to build consensus on your North Star. It trusts teachers to lead the way, build on successes, draw on best practices, and do what you take joy in, challenging your students in creative, distinctive ways that prepare them for life. One of the playlists is called Caring and Connected Communities. What is this concept? In normal times, students can’t learn effectively without social and emotional support. During the COVID 19 pandemic, this support was imperative. Here is 2025, with the United States experiencing intense turmoil, the need for caring and connected communities is even more acute. Yet too often, social and emotional priorities get lost in the blur of curriculum, test scores, out-competing classmates, and being judged against standards of perfection. We can and must do better. In this episode, we hear segments from previous conversations that feature guests who live and breathe the concept of caring and connected communities. There are six segments in this episode and I will provide a short introduction to each one. So if you are ready, I am ready. And if you have insights or questions, email me at [email protected], which is my podcast contact. As always, editing is provided by the talented Evan Kurohara. Our theme music comes from the catalog of pianist, Michael Sloan.

Before I deliver my introduction to this episode, I want to acknowledge my co-creator and inspiration for what you are about to hear today. Her name is Mel Ching and she is amazing. Director of Community Engagement for What School Could Be and producer/host of our YouTube live series, "The Big Think," Mel and I have been co-creating on projects for almost four years. Thank you, Mel. 

Okay, listeners, if you navigate to WhatSchoolCouldBe.org, you will find in the nav bar the words, The Innovation Playlist. What is this? The Innovation Playlist is a powerful change model based on small steps that elevate learning and life outcomes. It brings your community together to build consensus on your North Star. It trusts teachers to lead the way, build on successes, draw on best practices, and do what you take joy in: challenging your students in creative, distinctive ways that prepare them for life.

One of the playlists is called Real World Challenges. What is it? Imagine an educational landscape where students are not merely recipients of knowledge, but passionate investigators delving into the depths of authentic, engaging, and intricate questions, problems, and challenges. When you incorporate Real-World Challenges into your curriculum, students are empowered to actively engage with real-world complexities, become critical thinkers, problem solvers, and innovators. These students don’t just absorb information; they apply their learning in impactful ways and have the opportunity to make a tangible difference in the world around them, whether at an individual, community or organizational level.

In this episode, we hear segments from previous conversations that feature guests who live and breathe the concept of real-world challenges. There are five segments in this episode and I will provide a short introduction to each one. So if you are ready, I am ready. And if you have insights or questions, email me at [email protected], which is my podcast contact. As always editing is provided by the very talented Evan Kurohara.

Dr. Carole Basile is the Dean and a professor at Arizona State University’s Mary Lou Fulton College for Teaching and Learning Innovation, the largest college of education in the nation. Since 2016, she has led efforts to redesign the educator workforce through team-based models that honor learner variance and expand the possibilities of teaching. Before ASU, she served as Dean of the College of Education at the University of Missouri–St. Louis, and held faculty and leadership positions at the University of Colorado Denver and the University of Houston. Carole is co-author of The Next Education Workforce: How Team-Based Staffing Models Can Support Equity and Improve Learning Outcomes, and has published widely on teacher preparation, systems change, and school–community partnerships. With a career that also includes 15 years in business management and organizational development, she brings a rare blend of entrepreneurial spirit and educational vision .

Erin O’Reilly at the University of Montana, a previous podcast guest, wrote the following about Carole for this episode. “Her work in reimagining the teacher workforce is truly inspiring. Through innovative, team-based teaching models, she and her team are not only transforming how schools operate but also reshaping the future of education. As a teacher educator and researcher, I’ve been deeply influenced by her vision and dedication. Witnessing the tangible impact on teacher retention and job satisfaction has given me renewed hope and affirmation in my own work designing systems and curriculum to better support aspiring educators.”

So listeners, let’s get to know Carole before we dive into the deep end of education, teaching in teams, and teacher training pathways. We start with music. Carole has been listening to A History of Rock in 500 Songs. It’s not just about riffs or hit singles—it’s about rock as a cultural movement, full of experimentation, disruption, and variance. When she listens, is she a fan? A learner? A dean leading one of the largest colleges of education in the country? Likely all of the above.

Then we rewind to Harrisburg, Pennsylvania, where school came easily but wasn’t especially engaging. Her entrepreneurial father shaped her worldview—teaching her to manage people well and stay open to ideas. His influence still guides her leadership.

Carole’s career is anything but conventional: student teaching in Philadelphia, a master’s in counseling, 15 years in business, then a doctorate that brought her back to education. Along the way, a boss once told her being interested in “a lot of things” was a flaw. But David Epstein’s Range would disagree—and Carole’s life proves it.

From there, we’ll talk about variance. Not just as a math term or biblical one, but as a philosophy of education: every learner moves at their own pace, in their own way. ASU’s Next Education Workforce is putting that into practice—moving beyond the “one teacher, one classroom” model to teams of educators who bring diverse strengths.

We’ll also touch on ideas like “loonshots” and “possibility thinking,” and ask Carole to paint a picture of what team-based classrooms feel like—for students, teachers, and families. And we’ll close with a shout out to those whose shoulders she stands on.

So buckle up. From Jefferson Airplane to Jefferson County, from Harrisburg to Arizona, this conversation is about rock and roll, variance, teaching in teams, and the future of education itself.

Post production editing provided by the talented Evan Kurohara. Our theme music is by pianist, Michael Sloan.

Listeners, if you are inclined to go to the Red Bridge school website, which I hope you are, and you click on Our Team in the NAV bar, you will find the following bio for Orly Friedman, Red Bridge’s founder: “When I began teaching in 2007, I wanted to expand real opportunity for kids, and since then both opportunity—and the skills to seize it—have shifted; technology lets more people create and connect, but it only matters when learners have the know-how and confidence to use it—that is, agency. Agency sits at the heart of Red Bridge: while traditional schools reward compliance, we reward initiative. Students don’t just receive information—they drive their own learning—and they show up eager, day after day. Designing for agency means reworking school systems and structures; the experience won’t mirror your K–8 memories, yet the essentials remain: caring teachers, hands-on projects, academic challenge, and the joys every child loves—field trips, the Halloween parade, and more. Our tactics are fresh, but our values are rooted in a long line of progressive educators—John Dewey, Maria Montessori, and Deborah Meier—and in the last fifty years of cognitive science and psychology, translated daily by a skilled team.” I will note here that before launching Red Bridge, Orly was an Entrepreneur-in-Residence with Transcend. She was a founding team member at the Khan Lab School and has degrees from Yale University, George Mason University and the Stanford Graduate School of Business. Mason Pashia, the producer of Getting Smart’s podcasts and page editor and producer for Getting Smart’s blogs (and by the way, I recommend reading everything and listening to everything that comes from Getting Smart), wrote the following for this episode: “When you step inside Red Bridge, a San Francisco-based K-8 microschool, you immediately recognize that you're in a place that LOVES learning. Imagine kindergarteners with the agency to shape their own days and their own curiosities. Picture a curriculum built around 'noticing'—empowering students to connect, find and solve problems in their community. Red Bridge is a place where personalized, competency-based and high-agency learning is so much more than a soup of buzzwords; it's a daily practice that's nurturing a new generation of changemakers. Schools like Red Bridge are signals from the future, showing us not only what school could be, but what school can be.” And finally, here is an excerpt from a letter written by a former student of Orly’s, before she founded Red Bridge, that I think is so beautiful: “Hi Ms. Friedman, I hope you're doing well! I wanted to reach out and thank you for being such an amazing third-grade teacher at Murch all those years ago, and to let you know that I'm now becoming a teacher. I'll be teaching fourth grade in Aurora, Colorado, and school starts next week (ahhhhh!). I wrote about your class (featuring the green pouf) on my application for Teach for America, and I'm planning to have a Funky-Monkey-style shared writing project in my class as well. I just wanted to send a quick note before the year starts to say thank you for being an inspiration to me. I would also appreciate any first-year-teacher tips you might have! Thanks for everything, Olivia.” Our episodes are edited by the talented Evan Kurohara. Our theme music comes from the catalog of pianist, Michael Sloan.

For this 150th celebration my guest on the 101st episode, Emma Reppun (married and now Emma Jean George) and I decided she would interview me. Fun! The following is how she described, on LinkedIn, the episode and her experience being the host of the show. "Today I had the immense honor and privilege of interviewing my dad, Josh Reppun, the Executive Director of What School Could Be, for this 150th 'Talk Story' edition of the What School Could Be Podcast. If you've ever tuned into his show, you know that my pop is a master of crafting thoughtful questions based on an incredible amount of research for each and every guest he sits down with. As someone who has never been in the host chair before, it was a formative experience for me to attempt to offer him the same level of structured inquiry, while balancing my giddy delight as his daughter to be behind the mic! As this day comes to a close, and I marvel at what a meaningful opportunity this has been, I want to say a wholehearted mahalo to all the previous guests on the pod; it was you who helped me shape and craft my approach as I listened and re-listened to your amazing conversations in preparation for this moment. And a special shout out and thanks to Parul Punjabi Jagdish, Jennifer Ahn, Steven Shapiro, Nancy Shapiro Rapport, and Roman Krznaric, whose episodes sparked some of my favorite questions. And lastly, but certainly not least, my hat is off to you Ted Dintersmith, the executive producer of the acclaimed film, Most Likely to Succeed and the catalytic driving force that launched my beloved father into the happiest and most fulfilling years of his life." Our episodes are edited by the peerless, Evan Kurohara. Our theme music is provided by the master pianist, Michael Sloan.