When cops arrested a group of masked, black-robed protesters at a California campsite in 2019, most folks thoughts they’d caught some eccentric but harmless members of the Bay Area’s niche rationalist movement. But over the next few years the group would rally around its charismatic leader, Ziz LaSota, tearing across North America on a rampage of robbery and murder.

But even today, with LaSota in prison and several members dead, nobody’s quite sure what the Zizians are: a cult? A gang? Or just the most extreme Silicon Valley shitposters in history? We speak to journalist and author Evan Ratliff, who reported the Zizians for WIRED Magazine, to find out more — plus some bonus chat on Evan’s AI scam-led podcast “Shell Game”.

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