In this edition of THINGS HIDDEN, David Gornoski is joined by renowned icon carver Jonathan Pageau, host of the Symbolic World podcast. David and Jonathan talk about the anthropology of Rene Girard as seen from a symbolic perspective. They also cover the peculiar situation of the modern world with its weird shift in narratives, the "upside-down scapegoat mechanism," Lil Nas X's music video, WandaVision, and more. Is there hope for humanity when we see all the chaos of carnival around us? How does Jesus redeem the old world along with the new? Watch the full podcast to find out.

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