Thinking Class

Paul Embery is a firefighter, trade union activist, writer and broadcaster. Paul has been a member of the Labour party since 1994 and active in the wider labour movement for most of his adult life. He has served on the executive council of the Fire Brigades Union and as the national organiser of Trade Unionists Against the EU.

Paul has written extensively about working-class politics and culture, including for UnHerd, The Huffington Post, The Spectator, Spiked and Compact. His first book is Despised: why the modern Left loathes the working class, which was published in 2020.

In this episode of Thinking Class, Paul Embery and John Gillam analyse why cultural, economic, and identity pressures are reshaping British politics and society — and why mainstream political parties, especially Labour, often find themselves at odds with the concerns of working-class voters. Paul reflects on his lifelong experience in the Labour movement to explore how cultural identity, economic insecurity, and political alienation intersect in contemporary Britain.

They examine why diversity has become a central challenge for national cohesion, how political elites have misread public sentiment, and what a renewed sense of community and responsibility might require.

Where to find Paul Embery's work:

• Follow and subscribe to Paul on Substack
• Follow Paul on X/Twitter
• Buy Paul's book: Despised: Why The Modern Left Loathes The Working Class
• You can listen to my previous conversation with Paul here.

About Thinking Class:
Thinking Class is a long-form interview podcast exploring the cultural, historical, and moral forces shaping England, Britain, and the wider Western world.

Hosted by John Gillam, the show features serious conversations with historians, academics, and independent thinkers.

Thinking Class is concerned with discovering long-term patterns over headlines and hot-takes. Expect historically-grounded analysis on matters of national character, institutions, demography, belief, and political legitimacy.

New episodes every week.

▶️ Subscribe on YouTube
🎧 Follow on Spotify
📰 Read on Substack
🐦 Follow on X

Lord Nigel Biggar is Emeritus Regius Professor of Moral Theology at the University of Oxford and Distinguished Scholar in Residence at Pusey House, Oxford. He holds a B.A. in Modern History from Oxford and a PhD in Christian Theology and Ethics from the University of Chicago. In 2021, he was appointed Commander of the British Empire (CBE) for 'services to higher education'.

Nigel is the author of several acclaimed works, including Reparations: Slavery and the Tyranny of Guilt, Colonialism: A Moral Reckoning, What’s Wrong with Rights?, In Defence of War, and Between Kin and Cosmos: An Ethic of the Nation. His writing has appeared in publications such as The Financial Times, The Times, The Daily Telegraph, The Spectator, The Critic, Standpoint, The Glasgow Herald, The Irish Times, UnHerd, and Quillette.

His most recent books are Reparations: Slavery and the Tyranny Of Imaginary Guilt; Colonialism: A Moral Reckoning (2023), What’s Wrong with Rights? (2020), In Defence of War (2013), and Between Kin and Cosmopolis: An Ethic of the Nation (2014). In the press he has written articles for the Financial Times, the (London) Times, the Daily Telegraph, the Spectator, the (Glasgow} Herald, the Irish Times, Standpoint, The Critic, The Article, Unherd and Quillette.  

Nigel Biggar joins John Gillam to discuss one of the most contentious historical and moral debates facing Britain today: whether the nation should pay reparations for its role in the transatlantic slave trade. Drawing on history, moral philosophy, and institutional analysis, they explore why the question matters, what reparations would mean in practice, and how a nuanced understanding of Britain’s past can inform responsible action today.

This episode situates the reparations debate within broader questions about historical responsibility, collective identity, and the challenges of reconciling past injustices with present political realities.

Join us for more episodes that take history seriously and engage deeply with the moral and cultural issues shaping the West.

You can follow Lord Biggar's work here:

• Books
• Website
• X

About Thinking Class:
Thinking Class is a long-form interview podcast exploring the cultural, historical, and moral forces shaping England, Britain, and the wider Western world.

Hosted by John Gillam, the show features serious conversations with historians, academics, and independent thinkers.

Thinking Class is concerned with discovering long-term patterns over headlines and hot-takes. Expect historically-grounded analysis on matters of national character, institutions, demography, belief, and political legitimacy.

New episodes every week.

▶️ Subscribe on YouTube
🎧 Follow on Spotify
📰 Read on Substack
🐦 Follow on X

Andreas Svanlund is Chief Commercial Officer at Safe Clean, a Norwegian hydrocarbons company. Formerly an officer in the Norwegian Armed Forces, Andreas later joined the defence industry as a business developer with a focus on NATO and Europol special forces. He has also supplied combat uniforms and equipment to the Norwegian military, working closely with national counter-terrorism and organised crime units.

In this episode, Andreas and I think out loud about the critical importance of energy resilience for Western nations in today’s multipolar world. We discuss why the much-vaunted “energy transition” to renewables has not only failed but arguably never truly begun, and what this means for national security. Andreas explains the risks of relying on foreign energy supplies, how the rapid growth of AI data centres will actually increase demand for fossil fuels, and why governments will be forced to adapt their energy policies as a result.

We also explore the deep connections between energy resilience, economic prosperity, and domestic political stability and what is at stake if these connections are ignored.

You can follow Andreas’s work here:

• Andreas’s Substack
• Andreas’s LinkedIn

About Thinking Class:
Thinking Class is a long-form interview podcast exploring the cultural, historical, and moral forces shaping England, Britain, and the wider Western world.

Hosted by John Gillam, the show features serious conversations with historians, academics, and independent thinkers.

Thinking Class is concerned with discovering long-term patterns over headlines and hot-takes. Expect historically-grounded analysis on matters of national character, institutions, demography, belief, and political legitimacy.

New episodes every week.

▶️ Subscribe on YouTube
🎧 Follow on Spotify
📰 Read on Substack
🐦 Follow on X

Dominic Frisby is a financial writer, broadcaster, and comedian. He is the author of Life After the State, Bitcoin: The Future of Money, and Daylight Robbery: How Tax Shaped Our Past and Will Change Our Future. He writes regularly for MoneyWeek and has performed stand-up comedy in the UK and internationally.

In this episode, we think out loud about the long and revealing history of gold — and what humanity’s relationship with money tells us about power, honesty, and civilisation itself.

We discuss why gold has been desired, hoarded, stolen, regulated, and demonised throughout history; why it has repeatedly re-emerged as a store of value when trust in institutions collapses; and why Dominic argues that “gold is honest money — and is therefore disliked by dishonest men.”

The conversation ranges from ancient civilisations and gold rushes to the British Empire’s reliance on gold, and the costly short-termism of the British state’s decision to sell its gold reserves at the bottom of the market in 2010. We also examine how fiat money enables excess government, regulatory overreach, erosion of privacy, and bureaucratic expansion — and why monetary systems shape not only economies, but moral behaviour and political incentives.

You can follow Dominic’s work here:

• Dominic’s books
• Dominic’s Substack
• Dominic’s website
• Instagram
• X/Twitter

About Thinking Class:
Thinking Class is a long-form interview podcast exploring the cultural, historical, and moral forces shaping England, Britain, and the wider Western world.

Hosted by John Gillam, the show features serious conversations with historians, academics, and independent thinkers.

Thinking Class is concerned with discovering long-term patterns over headlines and hot-takes. Expect historically-grounded analysis on matters of national character, institutions, demography, belief, and political legitimacy.

New episodes every week.

▶️ Subscribe on YouTube
🎧 Follow on Spotify
📰 Read on Substack
🐦 Follow on X

David Shipley is a writer, campaigner, has worked as a consultant prison inspector, and is the author of the Substack Shipley Writes. David's work has appeared in The Spectator, The Sunday Times and The Telegraph. 

In this conversation, we think out loud about the moral and institutional collapse of Britain’s justice system — and what meaningful reform would actually require.

David reflects on his extraordinary life journey: from a career in corporate finance, to imprisonment for fraud, to becoming one of the most forthright critics of Britain’s prison regime. We discuss how the prison system has deteriorated not merely through incompetence, but through the influence of a morally relativistic, hyper-liberal culture that has abandoned judgement, responsibility, and truth-telling.

We examine what genuine rehabilitation should look like in practice; the daily realities faced by prison officers; the dangers posed by Islamic gangs and extremism within prisons; and why David supports the reintroduction of the death penalty in the United Kingdom. We also explore the role of faith in his own transformation, and his belief that England can once again become a safer, more just society — but only if it regains the courage to uphold moral standards and enforce the law.

This is a serious conversation about justice, punishment, mercy, and order — and about whether a civilisation that no longer believes in moral truth can hope to remain free.

You can follow David’s work here:

• X/Twitter
• David’s Substack
• David’s website
• The Spectator
• The Telegraph

About Thinking Class:
Thinking Class is a long-form interview podcast exploring the cultural, historical, and moral forces shaping England, Britain, and the wider Western world.

Hosted by John Gillam, the show features serious conversations with historians, academics, and independent thinkers.

Thinking Class is concerned with discovering long-term patterns over headlines and hot-takes. Expect historically-grounded analysis on matters of national character, institutions, demography, belief, and political legitimacy.

New episodes every week.

▶️ Subscribe on YouTube
🎧 Follow on Spotify
📰 Read on Substack
🐦 Follow on X

Lorenzo Warby, is a writer of the Substack Lorenzo from Oz and a regular contributor to Helen Dale’s Not on Your Team, but Always Fair, a Substack-recommended publication.

In this episode, Lorenzo and I think out loud about the idea of institutional capture, how Western institutions have been overtaken by fashionable ideologies, and how this has led to the rise of unaccountable classes within bureaucracies. We discuss how these unaccountable elites influence policy and norms across both politics and private institutions, what Lorenzo means by the “feminisation of institutions,” and why governance and accountability have been so badly weakened.

We also explore the role of dissent, why it is so often suppressed, and how this undermines the possibility of reform. Lorenzo points to Australian political structures as examples of how accountability can be done better, and we reflect on what lessons they might hold for Western societies more broadly.

This is Lorenzo’s fourth appearance on the show, and as ever it’s a wide-ranging discussion full of diversions, references, and tangents that ultimately connect to a bigger picture of how we arrived at our current political and institutional malaise.

Follow Lorenzo on X: @lorenzofrom

You can find Lorenzo’s work here:

• Substack - Lorenzo from Oz
• Substack - Not On Your Team, But Always Fair

You can listen to our previous conversations here:

• #029: Forget The War Of The Sexes, Men & Women Were Made To Complement Each Other
• #040: Why Our Genes & Cultures Undermine Our Quest For Equality
• #068 - Why Economists' Predictions Go Wrong, The Roman Empire Fell, And Why You Should Never Give Bureaucrats Moral Projects

You can follow and subscribe to Thinking Class on:

• X/Twitter
• YouTube
• Substack

You can watch the full show on YouTube or you can watch/listen to it on Substack

George Owers is an editor, writer, and author of the newly released The Rage of Party: How Whig Versus Tory Made Modern Britain.

In this episode, George and I think out loud about the origins of party politics in Britain, tracing how the Whigs and Tories emerged out of the Glorious Revolution of 1688, how the Whigs’ eventual dominance led to the creation of many of Britain’s most enduring institutions, shaping political life up to the present day, how the parties’ contrasting relationships with the monarchy and their religious differences deepened the divide, and why today's culture wars continue to echo those same historical tensions, whether today's Britain’s political discourse, so often centred on “British values,” can really make claim to a coherent set of values at all, and why a cohesive national identity is essential for sustaining both social democracy and the welfare state and why mass immigration is threatening these and much, much more. 

This is a rich and informative discussion — a history lesson in the first twenty minutes, followed by a wide-ranging exploration of how the wounds opened 350 years ago are still being re-litigated in today’s political culture.

You can find George's work here:

• Follow George on X 
• Buy his book here
• Read his work on The Critic

You can follow and subscribe to Thinking Class on:

• X/Twitter
• YouTube
• Substack

Mark Vernon is a psychotherapist, writer, a former Anglican priest, the host of the YouTube channel Plato's Podcasts and the author of the Substack A Golden String with Mark Vernon. Mark holds a PhD in Ancient Greek philosophy as well as degrees in theology and physics. He is the author of A Secret History of Christianity, Jesus: The Last Inkling and the Evolution of Consciousness, Dante’s Divine Comedy: A Guide for the Spiritual Journey, Spiritual Intelligence in Seven Steps, and most recently Awake: William Blake and the Power of the Imagination.

In this episode, Mark and I think out loud about the enduring relevance of William Blake’s vision in the modern world, why Blake’s critique of the industrial mindset was so prescient, why the industrial mindset remains the root of much discontent today, how our deep need for a more meaningful engagement with life often goes unfulfilled, why there can be no progress without contraries, how forgiveness and transformation can open the door to a more enchanted existence, why Blake’s distinctive interpretation of Christianity offers individuals a way to reconnect with the divine, and why Dante still has the power to save lives, and much, much more.

This is a rich and demanding episode, not business-speak reduced to bullet points, but a conversation that invites us to widen our perceptions and glimpse life more fully, at the depths of our humanity and our place in the universe. For those familiar with the work of Dr Iain McGilchrist, there will be much here that resonates.

You can find Mark’s work here:

• Mark’s Website

About Thinking Class:
Thinking Class is a long-form interview podcast exploring the cultural, historical, and moral forces shaping England, Britain, and the wider Western world.

Hosted by John Gillam, the show features serious conversations with historians, academics, and independent thinkers.

Thinking Class is concerned with discovering long-term patterns over headlines and hot-takes. Expect historically-grounded analysis on matters of national character, institutions, demography, belief, and political legitimacy.

New episodes every week.

▶️ Subscribe on YouTube
🎧 Follow on Spotify
📰 Read on Substack
🐦 Follow on X

Reverend Fergus Butler-Gallie is a writer, priest, and current Vicar of Charlbury in Oxfordshire. Educated at Oxford and Cambridge, he has ministered in parishes in Liverpool and Central London, and spent time living and working in the Czech Republic and South Africa. Fergus is the author of Touching Cloth—a Times and Mail on Sunday Book of the Year—as well as Priests de la Résistance! (a Spectator Book of the Year) and, most recently, Twelve Churches: An Unlikely History of the Buildings that Made Christianity. He also writes widely for publications including The Times, The Independent, The Guardian, The Church Times, The Critic and The Fence, and won the 2022 P.G. Wodehouse Essay Prize.

In this episode, Fergus and I think out loud about his new book, exploring the paradoxes at the heart of Christianity through the stories of twelve remarkable churches. We discuss how events such as the Salem Witch Trials reveal the complexities of faith, the role of power in Christianity exemplified by Hagia Sophia in Istanbul, and the Church’s central part in the abolition of slavery. Fergus also reflects on how managerialism has almost—but not yet—killed the Church of England, why it must be rooted out, and how he himself came to faith after a period of teenage unbelief and much, much more.

You can find Fergus’s work here:

• Fergus’s books
• The Critic
• The Guardian

About Thinking Class:
Thinking Class is a long-form interview podcast exploring the cultural, historical, and moral forces shaping England, Britain, and the wider Western world.

Hosted by John Gillam, the show features serious conversations with historians, academics, and independent thinkers.

Thinking Class is concerned with discovering long-term patterns over headlines and hot-takes. Expect historically-grounded analysis on matters of national character, institutions, demography, belief, and political legitimacy.

New episodes every week.

▶️ Subscribe on YouTube
🎧 Follow on Spotify
📰 Read on Substack
🐦 Follow on X

Nathan Pinkoski is a senior fellow at the Centre for Renewing America. He has written for First Things, Compact, Perspectives on Political Science, and The Claremont Review of Books. His forthcoming book, Actually Existing Post-Liberalism, explores the transformation of the West since 1989 and is due to be published by Basic Books. He is also translating Éric Zemmour’s bestseller The Suicide of the French into English for Encounter Books.

In this episode, Nathan and I think out loud about Nathan's academic journey, why Alasdair MacIntyre was one of the most important philosophers of our age, why modern moral discourse is so fragmented, how technological change significantly influences political discourse and how it has reshaped humanity itself, why one of the most taboo books of the 20th century is now back in print, why we need a common moral language for societal unity, why it is abundantly clear that multiculturalism presents challenges to national identity and cohesion, why the future of political philosophy may require abandoning liberal categories, how Nathan lost trust in society's key institutions, what comes next after the collapse of political consensus and much, much more.

You can find Nathan Pinkoski's work here:

• Nathan’s Substack
• Compact
• First Things
• X

About Thinking Class:
Thinking Class is a long-form interview podcast exploring the cultural, historical, and moral forces shaping England, Britain, and the wider Western world.

Hosted by John Gillam, the show features serious conversations with historians, academics, and independent thinkers.

Thinking Class is concerned with discovering long-term patterns over headlines and hot-takes. Expect historically-grounded analysis on matters of national character, institutions, demography, belief, and political legitimacy.

New episodes every week.

▶️ Subscribe on YouTube
🎧 Follow on Spotify
📰 Read on Substack
🐦 Follow on X