Jeremi and Zachary sit down with Jeffrey Engel to discuss the recent indictments on former president Trump, and other instances of presidential law-breaking.

Zachary sets the scene with his poem, "Some Messes Can Only Be Cleaned Up With Time."

Jeffrey Engel is a professor of history at Southern Methodist University, where he is the founding director of the Center for Presidential History. He is the author and editor of at least 10 books, including: Cold War at 30,000 Feet: The Anglo-American Fight for Aviation Supremacy, Impeachment: An American History, and When the World Seemed New: George H.W. Bush and the End of the Cold War.