On this episode of This vs. That, we celebrate our 80th episode by pulling back the curtain on eight seasons of the podcast. We reflect on what we've learned through this journey, discuss the original intention behind the show, and share how the podcast has evolved over time.

We talk about finding our voice as co-hosts, the spiritual and emotional tone we hoped to create, and how our conversations have deepened from being more formal and topic-focused to becoming more pastoral, honest, and comfortable sitting in complexity. We discuss how the podcast aims for wisdom rather than hot takes, creating space for curiosity over combativeness.

Our guest host Evan Magelssen asks about memorable conversations, Brian's process for writing questions tailored to each guest, and what has surprised us most about the podcast's reach—particularly how pastors have found the episodes timely and applicable to their ministry challenges. We also share how different guests bring unique energy to each episode.

Throughout the conversation, we express gratitude for our listeners who join us week after week, and our hope that this podcast continues to be a blessing as we navigate life's tensions together without rushing to tidy answers.

On this episode of This vs. That, we explore a tension that many in ministry face: being needed versus being known. We're joined by Rebekah Hannah and Kari Ann Tilson, co-founders of Rode Leadership, a partner organization of Anchored Virtual.

We discuss Rode Leadership's upcoming pastor's wives cohort and examine why this topic is especially relevant for pastor's wives. Pastor's wives often feel the pull of being needed by many people for many things, facing overwhelming expectations from their church communities while struggling to find safe places for authentic relationships.

Throughout the conversation, we explore how being needed can become a trap where we find our identity and value in what we do rather than who we are in Christ. We discuss the subtle shift that happens when our identity moves from being rooted in Christ to being rooted in our output and performance.

We also talk about what it means to have confidence in Christ—not confidence in our abilities or results, but confidence in the person of Jesus Christ who calls us, equips us, and gives us value. This confidence enables us not only to serve well but also to be known authentically.

We address the practical challenges pastor's wives face in finding genuine friendships where they can be vulnerable and known as individuals, not just as extensions of their husband's ministry. The conversation includes wisdom about focusing on specific areas of giftedness rather than trying to meet every need, and the importance of finding trustworthy people with whom deeper relationships can develop.

Finally, we discuss how the pastor's wives cohort creates a safe space for women experiencing similar challenges across different contexts to share, grow, and realize they're not alone.

---

To get 25% off the Pastors' Wives Cohort, visit www.rodeleadership.com/pwc and use the code TVT25

On this episode of This vs. That, we sit down with Jared Wilson to explore the tension between gospel-centered and issue-driven ministry. We ask whether gospel centeredness was just another evangelical trend or if it remains essential to the DNA of healthy Christians and churches.

Jared breaks down what gospel-centered ministry actually means—centering on Christ in Scripture, trusting grace for heart-level change, and finding our validation in Christ's performance rather than our own. In contrast, issue-driven ministry hinges its hope for change on cultural topics or headlines rather than the announcement of the gospel.

We discuss why some have moved away from gospel centrality, exploring concerns about pragmatism and the temptation to lean on other approaches when change seems slow. Jared offers practical wisdom on how to recognize when we've drifted from gospel-centered ministry—often it starts when the gospel begins to feel perfunctory or less interesting than the cultural issue of the day.

Throughout our conversation, we grapple with how to keep the gospel central when cultural issues demand our attention, and how to avoid treating the gospel like an empty Trojan rabbit—something we've forgotten to include in our ministry altogether.

On this episode of This vs. That, we explore the relationship between professional counseling and everyday counseling with Dr. Kristin Kellen, associate professor of biblical counseling at Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary. We discuss how these two forms of counseling exist on a spectrum, examining the differences in formality, reciprocity, and structure.

We consider the biblical foundation for everyday counseling through the "one another" passages that call all believers to care for each other, while also addressing how professional counseling fits within a Christian framework. We tackle common objections to using counseling language for informal relationships and clarify definitions that help distinguish between professional therapy and everyday discipleship.

We also discuss practical guidance on discerning when to seek help from your local church community versus when professional counseling may be needed. Kristin shares insights on how both levels of care can work together in a care team model, and offers wisdom on cultivating a culture of vulnerability and openness within church communities.

Finally, we explore the various levels of training available for those who want to grow in their counseling abilities—from reading and observing to certificate programs and formal degrees—and how to discern when it's time to pursue further training.

-----

You’re going to love what our partner organization, Rode Leadership, is offering: the Pastor’s Wives Cohort — an eight-week virtual experience designed to nourish, connect, and equip women in ministry.

Craving connection? Need support? Just want to breathe and grow alongside others in ministry?

Sign up today at ⁠⁠rodeleadership.com/pwc⁠⁠

----

For more information about Anchored Virtual, visit ⁠⁠⁠⁠anchoredvirtual.com

On this episode of This vs. That, we welcome back Yana Jenay Conner to explore the difficult but essential work of forgiveness in close friendships. We discuss why forgiveness matters so deeply in our faith and why it's such hard work when friends wound us.

We examine what makes God's way of forgiveness different from our culture's approach, moving beyond self-centered freedom to an other-centered response that reflects the gospel. Yana shares how forgiveness in Christ flows from a place of freedom rather than just leading to freedom, drawing on the powerful example of Jesus washing Judas's feet.

We also talk about the essential role of grief and lament in the forgiveness process, and why we need to fully acknowledge our pain before we can move forward. Finally, we tackle the tension between forgiving someone and holding them accountable, exploring how these two things aren't in opposition but can work together under the umbrella of seeking wholeness.

Join us for this honest conversation about healing versus holding on, and discover what it looks like to do the hard work of forgiveness God's way.

On this episode of This vs. That, we sit down with Ronnie Martin, pastor and Director of Leader Care and Renewal for the Harbor Network, to explore unhurried ministry versus anxious ministry.

We dig into why so many ministry leaders find themselves overextended and running ragged. Ronnie shares insights from his book "The Unhurried Pastor," co-authored with Brian Croft, which draws on Eugene Peterson's work to address the burnout epidemic in ministry today.

We discuss the "superhero pastor" mentality and how pastors can actually become addicted to being everything to everybody, even while intellectually knowing it leads to burnout.We explore the unique pressures pastors face—the flexibility of their schedules, the invisible nature of much of their work, and the constant pressure to prove their worth to their congregations.

We also tackle the tension of feeling like we're never doing enough while simultaneously doing too much, and how the question "what are you spending your time doing?" can feel like a shame-throwing question. Ronnie offers practical wisdom on discernment, the importance of the "holy pause" before saying yes to every request, and how to avoid unhealthy stacking of commitments.

This conversation offers valuable insights for anyone in ministry—or really anyone feeling overwhelmed—about finding sustainable rhythms, practicing humility, and learning to distinguish between a full calendar and one that's suffocating us.

On this episode of This vs. That, we sit down with Darby Strickland, faculty member and counselor at CCEF, to discuss understanding trauma versus simplistic responses to trauma. We explore what trauma really is and how it impacts people—disrupting their sense of self, safety, and ability to connect with others and the Lord.

Darby helps us recognize common simplistic responses that can unintentionally harm trauma survivors, like suggesting time will heal the wound, questioning someone's faith when they continue to struggle, or doubting their story when details emerge in a fragmented way. We discuss why people respond to the same events differently and how the label of "trauma" matters less than the pain someone is experiencing and their need for healing.

We also talk about how to love friends who are suffering from trauma—emphasizing a ministry of presence over having the right words, not taking things personally, and being willing to remain with someone even when it's difficult. Throughout our conversation, Darby reminds us that God's care isn't measured by how we categorize our pain, and that He meets us in our subjective experiences just as the Psalms model for us.

-----

You’re going to love what our partner organization, Rode Leadership, is offering: the Pastor’s Wives Cohort — an eight-week virtual experience designed to nourish, connect, and equip women in ministry.

And just for our This Versus That listeners — there’s a super early bird deal:

Get 25% off the regular $375 registration with code RODESUPER — but only through December 4th.

Craving connection? Need support? Just want to breathe and grow alongside others in ministry?

Sign up today at ⁠rodeleadership.com/pwc⁠

----

For more information about Anchored Virtual, visit ⁠⁠⁠anchoredvirtual.com

On this episode of This vs. That, we sit down with Brad Hambrick, pastor of counseling at the Summit Church in Durham, North Carolina, to discuss one of the most painful experiences a marriage can face: betrayal.

We explore the tension between idealized expectations of quick healing and the reality that recovery requires an intentional, patient process. Brad shares why "rarely is the first story, the whole story" and how incomplete information at the beginning can derail restoration efforts. We discuss the importance of full disclosure versus discovery, and why marriages often die from "a death of a thousand confessions" rather than the initial betrayal itself.

We examine the early stage work that must happen before forgiveness—gaining an accurate history of what occurred and assessing the unfaithful spouse's level of transparency and cooperation. Brad offers the profound insight that "there is as much hope for the marriage as there is honesty," helping us understand how to gauge realistic hope in the restoration process.

Throughout our conversation, we address how helpers can better support those who've experienced betrayal, why the betrayed spouse is often the most neglected individual in these situations, and how God's character speaks to this devastating reality.

-----

You’re going to love what our partner organization, Rode Leadership, is offering: the Pastor’s Wives Cohort — an eight-week virtual experience designed to nourish, connect, and equip women in ministry.

And just for our This Versus That listeners — there’s a super early bird deal:

Get 25% off the regular $375 registration with code RODESUPER — but only through December 4th.

Craving connection? Need support? Just want to breathe and grow alongside others in ministry?

Sign up today at rodeleadership.com/pwc

----

For more information about Anchored Virtual, visit ⁠⁠anchoredvirtual.com

On this episode of This vs. That, we sit down with Trevin Wax and Thomas West to explore their new book, The Gospel Way Catechism: 50 Truths that Take On the World. We discuss how catechisms serve as powerful tools for spiritual formation and discipleship in an ever-changing culture.

Trevin and Thomas share the inspiration behind their work, drawing from the influence of Lesslie Newbigin and Tim Keller's concept of counter catechesis. We explore how their catechism is designed to counter dominant cultural narratives like expressive individualism and secularism, helping believers understand not just what Christians believe, but how those beliefs stand in contrast to the way of the world.

The conversation unpacks key themes from the book, including the tension between freedom and submission to God, the nature of human identity and purpose, and how catechesis equips us to shine like stars in a crooked and perverse generation. We also discuss practical applications—from teenagers navigating secular education to professionals working in luxury brand marketing—showing how the gospel way provides a lens for faithful living in any context.

On this episode of This vs. That, we explore one of the most important yet often misunderstood aspects of Christian marriage: sex. We sit down with Scott Mehl, pastor of Cornerstone Church of West LA and author of Redeeming Sex and Marriage, to discuss the difference between self-centered sex and God-centered sex.

We tackle questions like: What is God's design for sex and marriage? Why does physical intimacy get complicated even in the best of marriages? And what is the larger story that sex is telling?

Scott shares from his own journey—the confusion he and his wife Lauren experienced early in their marriage, and how that led him to search for what God actually says about this sensitive topic.We discuss the five purposes of sex, including how it serves as an expression of the relationship between Christ and the church.

We also address the practical side: how selfishness shows up in the bedroom, why viewing sex as a "need" can be problematic, and how the gospel speaks directly to our sexual brokenness.Throughout our conversation, we emphasize that God-centered sex is ultimately spouse-focused sex—a reflection of selfless love that points us to something greater.

----

For more information about Anchored Virtual, visit ⁠anchoredvirtual.com