Thomas Jefferson, the third president of the USA, drafted the words 'all men are created equal', in the US Declaration of Independence. He wanted slavery to end, but mainly because he was deeply worried about slaves revolting against the white population.  He also thought the new nation would not be taken seriously if it was mixed race. He wanted to banish all black people from the US. 

• Guest: Nicholas Guyatt, Professor of North American History at Cambridge University. Co-author, with Christa Dierksheide, of ‘Jefferson’s Wolf: a founding father’s troubling answer to the problem of slavery’  (Harvard University Press, May 2026)
• Producer: Ann Arnold