Tough Things First

Even if you have decided to shun social media, virtually every type of communication you use is a form of content creation. In this Tough Things First podcast, Ray Zinn talks about ways we overlook our status as influences just because we don’t post videos of ourselves all the time. (Ironically, Watch Here…)

Ray Zinn: Hi, Rob. Good to be with you today.

Rob Artigo: Great to be back. This, of course, is one of our favorite occasions. It’s a special edition of the Tough Things First podcast. If the listener wants to watch it, all they have to do is navigate to the website, ToughThingsFirst.com, and then click on the Watch Now link right next to this podcast, obviously, the intro to the podcast, and watch instead of just listen, which is great. I’m wearing my sports coat today, which works out great.

Ray, one of the notes that we got as a suggested topic was content creators today are shaping far more than purchasing decisions and trends. They’re shaping public opinion on major national and international issues, which we know. I mean, we hear about this all the time. X, formerly known as Twitter, other platforms, people are creating content all the time, and they’re influencing. We worked together on the book Essential Leadership that’s forthcoming, we’re proud to say, and you did a whole chapter on how everybody’s an influencer and the essential leader has to look at themselves as a influencer. Are they also content creators in a general sense?

Ray Zinn: They sure are. I mean, there’s a program on TV, it’s called American Greed, and what’s interesting is that the way you live your life, what you do with the resources that you have, influences others, either for good or for bad. And so the concept of being an influencer is very important.

I mean, it’s the same thing that’s happening in the political environment, whether it be Donald Trump being sued for election interference or for his business dealings, or whether it be Biden regarding his son and other problems that his son is having. That has an influence on the election.

Or if you’re running a company, if you are doing things which are not legitimate or appear to be greedy, you may not be doing something that’s against the law per se, but if you come across as a greedy individual where you’re focusing on yourself … In fact, that’s one of the things that they’re complaining about Trump is that he’s focused on himself, and then Kamala Harris says she’s focused on others. So it’s a way that they have of steering the influence, as you would, either toward them or against them.

When we think about what kind of influence we’re having, either in our business dealings or employment or socially, we have to be careful what kind of an image we’re portraying. In our book that we’re coming out with soon, in Essential Leadership, we cover that. That’s one of the major chapters is, what kind of an influencer are you? Because you are influencing, whether you’re a school teacher, or whether you’re a nurse, or a doctor, or a lawyer, or whatever your field of business is, you influence.

In one of our podcasts, we’re going to cover the effect of nurturing your influence, as you would, or those that you do influence, those who you’re associated with. And so you can’t say just because you’re a student, or you’re a school teacher, or a nurse, or maybe a construction worker, that you’re not having influence, but you do. That affects your income, that affects your merit review is how well you are influencing others. And so getting the job done, as you would, working as a team, team building, even as an individual contributor, whether you’re working from home or whether you’re working at the office, you are having an influence.

In fact, what’s interesting is as we deal with working from home and either using some kind of media to interact with others, it’s actually you have a bigger challenge, because you’re not directly in front of someone. You’re actually doing it vis-a-vis some kind of a media connection, and maybe they don’t even see your face. Maybe they just hear your voice, so they can’t read the expression on your face, or how you’re dressed, or how your interaction is. If you’re going to be a good influencer, make sure that when you are working from home or working through some kind of a media interface, that you do it correctly. That your tone of your voice, the way you’re coming across, the way you’re answering questions is appropriate.

One of the things they’re talking about in the upcoming election is how Trump comes across or how Kamala Harris comes across. So how we come across is what we’re talking about in this podcast is, how are we influencing?

Rob Artigo: You made a valuable point there. Your points are always valuable to me. But, specifically, about the fact that you don’t have to be a TikTok participant where you’re out videoing yourself and then sending out a message. That there are subtle ways in which you are a content creator, that even in an email, you’re a content creator in a literal sense-

Ray Zinn: Exactly.

Rob Artigo: … and that those things are influential. I guess the question you have to ask yourself is, is this an appropriate message to send? Am I sending the message that would be something that I want shared with other people, and do I want other people to emulate it? For example, we talked about the election, is do I want a vote to go one way or another? Maybe what I’m saying sounds like I’m interested in one candidate, but I’m actually going to vote for another. You’ve mixed the message, and you’re not being a good influencer, obviously, and your content that you’ve created is confusing.

Ray Zinn: Well, the interesting thing is that Donald Trump, for example, says, “I am who I am.” Well, we all are that. We all are who we are. But depending upon how we want to come across depends upon what kind of influence we want to be. Do we want to be a negative influence or a positive influence? Hopefully we want to be a positive influence, either because we’re selling a product, or because we’re trying to build a relationship with another person. As I said, we’re going to cover that in another podcast, but our sociability, the kind of preeminence we want to be in whatever setting that is, is important.

I know that in this upcoming election, they’re talking about Donald Trump. “I wish he would back down on the rhetoric, talk about policies and issues rather than talking about the person,” but he’s not listening, he’s just doing it the way he wants to do it. And then the same thing with Kamala Harris. She’s doing it because that’s who she is. Maybe they both want to say, “I want you to vote for me for what I can do, not for how I’m acting or how I’m coming across,” which is difficult to separate. You’re bifurcating. You’re trying to say, “Well, I’m really not the person that I’m portraying myself to be. I’m really somebody else.”

If you want to come across as genuine, then, of course, you want to be who you are. But by the same token, though, you don’t want to come to a funeral dressed in a bathing suit. You want to make sure your interaction is appropriate for whatever role it is that you’re trying to achieve, whether you’re trying to be in a mentoring role, or whether you’re trying to be receiving information from someone where they’re trying to mentor you. So the information or the kind of input you want or output you want depends upon what kind of a image you’re trying to portray, which is again, this influencing image.

If you’ve watched TikTok, you’ve seen really goofy-looking TikTok videos, because what the person’s trying to portray, it comes across to me as kind of silly and stupid, but to others, they enjoy it, because it’s what they want to see. It’s how they want to be influenced, as you would.

Rob Artigo: As you mentioned, we are going to cover some territory in being an influencer for good in an upcoming podcast. This is a different area of being an influencer, but, obviously, the message ties in with the other one, which is being an influencer for good. So you can join the conversation at ToughThingsFirst.com. We appreciate you being here to watch or listen, as this is a special edition of the Tough Things First podcast. Your questions and comments are always welcome. Follow Ray on X, Facebook and LinkedIn. Please rate this podcast, so that we can keep the momentum going and grow this podcast more times over as it is a popular podcast. Check out Ray’s books, the Zen of Zinn I, II, and III. It’s a whole series. Also, of course, the flagship book, which is Tough Things First. Be prepared, because the ball’s going to drop soon on this book, Essential Leadership, and you won’t want to miss that. Thank you again, Ray.

Ray Zinn: Thanks, Rob.

Asked for an opinion or not, it seems most people jump at the chance to say what’s on their minds. In this Tough Things First podcast, Ray Zinn discusses the ways opinions can go wrong, and how to make them go the right way.

Rob Artigo: Often flipping through Zen of Zinn one, two, or three and things appeal to me in some way, shape, or form. Hit me in a way and I write down a note, and I think this one did. You wrote about how people are quick to offer critical opinions, but you also suggest that an opinion that creates hard feelings should be avoided. Why is that the case?

Ray Zinn: Well, we talk about protests. A protest is an opinion effectively, and there’s no such thing as a good protest. They’re all evil, or they all have hatred or some animosity associated with a protest. So when you express an opinion, you’re actually protesting because if you’re not, unless you agree with somebody else’s opinion, you’re offering a counter view on something.

Ray Zinn Cont: And opinion is an unsubstantiated fact, is what an opinion is. In other words, it’s your view of a particular thing that may or may not have any substance to it whatsoever, but it is usually an opposing view on something. That’s what opinion is. So if an opinion doesn’t enhance the situation, if it doesn’t uplift it, if it doesn’t cause it to become better, then you should avoid it. As you say, your mom always says, if you haven’t got something good to say, don’t say it at all.

And so if you’re offering an opinion because you want damage a relationship, then that’s what’s going to happen. What is your goal? Why am I offering this opinion? Am I offering it because I want to ruin the relationship that I have? Or is it because I want to enhance the relationship that I have? So that’s that birds of a feather flock together thing. So depending upon what your goal is, what is your objective? Do you want to enhance the relationship or you want to destroy it? If you’re offering an opinion that’s going to destroy a relationship, like a protest, as you would, I would say avoid it. I don’t know why you would want to destroy a relationship. No matter how much you might dislike that relationship, destruction is never good. I don’t know, unless you’re trying to demolish a house to rebuild another one.

I don’t know why you would want to destroy a relationship unless it didn’t. If it wasn’t there to begin with, I guess you’re not going to destroy it anyway. But my point though is that be careful about how readily you’re going to offer up your view. If it doesn’t enhance, if it doesn’t develop, improve the relationship. I would avoid it. Keep your opinions to yourself. Now again, as your mother would tell you, if you haven’t got something good to say, don’t say it at all. And remember, most of what we say is an opinion, our view. We’re always offering our view, whether it’s wanted or not. These podcasts, these are effectively views on particular subjects. We’re offering this one up as a positive, and that if you haven’t got something good to say, just keep it to yourself. And if you got something good to say, then obviously if it’s helped to either help your relationship or help strengthen a particular view, then go ahead. But again, the purpose of this podcast is to reinforce how much our opinion or our views do affect our relationship with others.

Rob Artigo: Well, let’s close out the podcast by getting a good answer to this part of it, which is that in the business world, we may be faced with having to make tough decisions, tough decisions, where we don’t want to destroy somebody. But at the same time, like on Shark Tank for example, Shark Tank is something we bring up all the time on the show because such a great example of different communications and pitches and how to respond in the business world to different things. But sometimes the criticism can be harsh, but that’s the person’s opinion, that criticism, it’s based on many different levels of knowledge, but it’s still an opinion about the product, about the person, what they’re doing. Is that a place to be tactful or a place to be direct?

Ray Zinn: Well, you’re talking about a video or a TV show, a reality show or a Shark Tank. And it may be the view of the producer of Shark Tank to be more controversial because they want people to come back and watch this show. So you’re going to get more controversial discussion in a TV show than you are in a real life situation. I remember I was running… I did a TV series. It was one that they wanted to release. It actually didn’t get released, but I was involved in that. And I remember one series that we did on the TV show, reality show. They didn’t think it was controversial enough, and so they redid it themselves. They just changed things around, inserted comments and stuff to make it more controversial as you would.

So in reality, TV shows they are more controversial than normal because I’ve been at a lot of shark tape type environments with companies, not TV shows, but real shows as you would real interfaces. And they weren’t near as controversial as it is in the Shark Tank. And you have a whole bunch of different people that are all trying to play off one against the other. And it’s for… It’s a little different Shark Tank because it’s a TV show reality show.

Rob Artigo: And I guess the idea is don’t emulate what you’re seeing on television as being the appropriate behavior in a work environment.

Ray Zinn: Yeah, exactly. All of you have watching enough TV shows to know that they’re built to, or they’re developed to be shown to a lot of different audiences with different views and what they want to see, and they’re trying to attract the biggest audience they can.

Rob Artigo: Yeah, so that’s the reality TV series, reality Check for you here on Tough Things First. This is a rapidly growing podcast rated at your favorite venue, whatever, it’s your streaming services that you’re using at the moment. And tell them you like us. Come back to Tough Things First and listen again. We always appreciate you being here. Please also check out Ray’s books, Tough Things First is the book you want to get, and then the Zen of Zinn series. I look forward to the next time. Ray.

Ray Zinn: Thanks Rob.

No matter the size of the investment or the investor group, cash infusions to boost your company will come with strings. In this Tough Things First podcast, offers some thoughts on how it works and what to expect.

Rob Artigo: I recently read that Applied Digital, it’s a data center operator, their shares recently had soared like 65%. They said they would receive $160 million in financing from a group of investors. That would be including investment from Nvidia. I use Nvidia products, I like it. It’s in my computer. It’s good for digital editing, and audio, and that sort of thing, so I’m a big fan, but where I’m going with this topic here is part of the investment group is a real estate firm called Related Companies. I kind of think like, “Okay. You got Nvidia, makes sense for the type of company that Applied Digital is, but then there’s also an outside firm, this real estate investment firm that’s involved.” I think, “Wow, it seems like there’s not synergy there Nvidia and the investment firm would expect something out of the deal.”

Rob Artigo: Let’s talk about what big investors in companies like your company, Micrel, which you ran for more than 37 years, what you deal with when people are coming in, and who want to participate and get a piece of the pie, and that sort of thing. I mean, you’ve seen it, you’ve participated in it. Do investors, are they just looking for a little cash or are they looking for influence and sometimes ownership, a little bit of a piece of the action ownership-wise?

Ray Zinn: Well, most of the time, depending again what their role is with the company, if it’s strictly for an investment, then they’re just putting money in and hoping that, at some point down the road, the company is able to then repay that investment many times over, whereas others like venture capital… I’m not sure maybe even Nvidia would want to put somebody on the board so they can monitor their investment real time, because if you’re just investing, then you don’t get regular financial reports and so forth. But if you’re on the board and you’re able to have a regular influence with the company, then you can monitor your investment a little closer, so I’m not sure how much money Nvidia put in or that real estate company.

But in the case of Nvidia, there may be some synergy there because of the technology that Digital has. The real estate company may be just trying to diversify from real estate into some more technology, because Nvidia has had an extremely fast growth in the last couple of years, and maybe they’re just wanting to catch that wave and benefit from that investment. Again, without knowing what the role of those different individuals are, companies are, it’s hard to say where their emphasis is. In the case of Nvidia, it’s probably more synergy, whereas in the other, it might be just they’re wanting to diversify their investment portfolio.

Rob Artigo: Is it fair to say that the level of investment is going to be oftentimes commensurate to what the level of interest is going to be? In other words, I can buy stock. I don’t own any stock Nvidia or this other company or whatever, so I don’t know… I don’t have any of those things, but I can invest as an individual investor by buying a share. Just get one share. That’s one level of investment, and it’s completely removed from the activity of the company. But if I get into the mid-range, I’m in the couple of million dollars in something, and then the next level, it goes up from there. Eventually, the higher end, you’re going to get the people who want to have more influence and have a seat on the board, your guy who started Micrel without venture cap.

Ray Zinn: We’re covering a whole lot of ground here on this subject, so I’m not sure how we want to tie this up in a neat bow, but you’ll have these companies that their whole purpose is to buy a large percentage of the company and then be able to either get rid of the current leadership or to change the direction of the company.

Rob Artigo: As a CEO, I would want to be aware of the fact that it’s not just a one-size-fits-all relationship and that there are things that I need to watch out for if I… I have to make sure that what I’m doing is good for the company and not just assume that it’s all going to work out. Micrel didn’t have a lot of this, but yet you’ve been in the business world a long time. Are you fond of that relationship when you have to deal with a board that you have to work new relationships with?

Ray Zinn: Well, if you’re a public company and then they file a 13D, they can come in and buy once they buy a certain percentage of your company. If they’re one of those adversarial investors, then they can… If they have enough shares, they can dictate how you run your company effectively. Again, if you’re a public company, you’re stuck with what the investors want to do with regard to that dollar they want to spend in your company. If you’re a private company, you have a similar problem. Most of these companies, like Nvidia or this other real estate company, depending again how much money they’re putting in, they probably want a see it on the board so they can monitor that investment.

Rob Artigo: Thanks, Ray. As always, you could reach out to raise in with your questions at toughthingsfirst.com. Continue your education and the conversation with all the podcasts, blogs, links to information about Ray’s books. Tough Things First, of course, you always have to get that one, and then the other books, the series, the Zen of Zinn 1, 2, and 3. Remember, Essential Leadership is coming up. We want you to be focused on and preparing for that. Take pre-orders or whatever we can do to get you interested. Thanks again, Ray.

Ray Zinn:

Thanks, Rob.

Money is not everything, but if you want it, are creative, and a bit delusional, you have a shot and being more than lucky. In this Tough Things First podcast, Ray Zinn points out the difference between a healthy delusion and being downright crazy.

Rob Artigo: You’ve probably heard of tennis star, Coco Gauff. [inaudible 00:00:17] she’s a major champion tennis star and she’s using that fame, which probably based on good advice, to take some of the money she’s got and the influence that she has, and she’s using it to parlay that into a billion-dollar entrepreneurial endeavor, which is probably a combination of businesses. I didn’t look closely at it, but I’m assuming that’s what that is. Usually that’s the case for the athletes that are operating smartly, but she actually recently encouraged people of her age who have similar goals to be delusional.

So look at the definition of delusion versus likely meaning behind her advice. I think there might be a little disconnect between the actual definition and what she said. So there’s delusional, and then there’s risk, favored by risk-takers not gamblers. And I guess that’s one way that I would put it. So when it comes to ideas, she says, don’t be afraid to be delusional. So then I’ll give you the quote, “I think delusional is great.” Now, forgive her syntax there. “I think delusional is great,” Gauff tells Forbes, that’s where I got the quote, “All of the great athletes and greatest artists have to be a little of craziness and delusion. Having a little bit of crazy in your goal is kind of healthy.” What do you think?

Ray Zinn: Well, again, it’s that syntax. Delusional, in the definition of the word, delusional, is believing something that is not possible. In other words, you say, “Well, I can jump off of the Golden Gate Bridge, and hit the water, and not die.” That’s delusional her. What she’s trying to say is that be a little crazy. Jumping off the Golden Gate Bridge is crazy, okay, especially if you don’t have something to protect you as you hit the water. Being a little crazy, I think she’s just trying to be a little bit obtuse here by referring to that word, delusional, as being something that we should endeavor, because there are people who will not take any risk at all. In other words, you still see people going around with masks on their face after the pandemic because they don’t want to take a risk of catching COVID or they don’t go out in public. They’re so used to staying at home now and staying secluded that they don’t go out at all because they don’t want to take a risk.

Well, that’s a risk in and of itself because now you’re not going to go anywhere. You’re not going to progress, but on the other hand, the pendulum can swing too far, delusional, meaning like Bitcoin or one of those things that is highly risky to me, in my view, that’s a little delusional. Other words, but people have made money on Bitcoin and other ventures, or going to Las Vegas and putting it all on a table. To believe you’re not going to lose any money going to Las Vegas is delusional, but there are people who have made lots of money. Las Vegas wouldn’t exist as an entity if it weren’t for the delusional belief that you can make a lot of money in Las Vegas. That’s a little crazy. But there are people who literally believe that they can make a fortune just by going to Las Vegas.

Rob Artigo: Yeah, a delusional person believes things that couldn’t possibly be true. And I heard you say was that there are also those people who believe that nothing is possible.

Ray Zinn: Right.

Rob Artigo: So they put a wall in front of themselves on everything. But like you said, I prefer that they be a little bit crazy as opposed to saying, “Be delusional.” Because really being delusional is a little bit more towards, go ahead and believe that things that are impossible are possible.

Ray Zinn: [inaudible 00:04:37].

Rob Artigo: Like you said, surviving a dip in a bath of hot lava or something like that.

Ray Zinn: Well, let me ask you, is being crazy, smart? Can you answer that question?

Rob Artigo: No. No, I think being a little crazy in that if you are willing to, if you’re being a creative person and you’re taking some chances, and people would say, “Oh, that’s not going to work, that’s impossible. That’s not going to work.” And then you go, “Well, okay, call me crazy, but I’m going to give it a try.” So that’s the crazy that I’m talking about, and I think it might be the crazy she’s talking about.

Ray Zinn: Well, I know that. Just saying [inaudible 00:05:14] is smart being crazy or crazy being smart?

Rob Artigo: I don’t know. I think I’d have to answer that question, yes or no to the question would be, no, being crazy is not smart.

Ray Zinn: Yeah. So if you look at the definition of being crazy, that’s nuts, okay? We [inaudible 00:05:32] that’s nutty, okay? If you’re being crazy, you’re being nutty. So everybody has their own risk aversion level. And so if you’re a person who is really risk-adverse and you do anything that’s risky, that’s crazy, okay, as a person who’s risk-adverse. So you got to look at your level of risk-averseness and decide how much risk are you willing to take? Are there people who do are crazy and put a little craziness into their investments? Yes, and they do well, but again, you’re gambling. And if you’re a gambler, that’s called being a little crazy as a gambler. That’s what a gambler is. A gambler is a crazy person. And so everybody has to look at their own level of risk-taking and decide if it’s good for them, and if you’re willing to bet the farm, then go for it.

What Coco is referring to is that being a little delusional as opposed to being a non-risk-taker, is what we need to go for. In other words, be willing to take a risk. That’s what she’s talking about. Get off the couch with your potato chips and go do something. Get a little crazy at times. And when I started Micrel back in 1978, all my good friends, and I’ll call them good friends, said, “You’re crazy.” I started Micrel with no money basically, which was a semiconductor company in Silicon Valley. And I started with my own money, but very little money and people said, “You can’t start a company with no money or very little money.” And so that just convinced me that I should, because if they said it can’t be done, that’s what I wanted to do.

Now, was I delusional? In their mind, I was very delusional. In my mind, no, I wasn’t delusional at all. I was confident I could make it happen. And yet in their mind, those friends of mines that looked at what I was trying to do, they were trying to help me and say, “Hey Ray, you’re crazy. You can’t do that. There’s no semiconductor company ever started with no money.” And I said, “Well, I’ll be the first.” So that’s what I did. I started a very successful semiconductor company, virtually no money. [inaudible 00:08:13]-

Rob Artigo: It did very well for a long time.

Ray Zinn: Yeah, well, it’s been sold, but it’s still doing well if you look at the company that acquired it. But again, I wouldn’t be Silicon Valley’s longest serving CEO if I wasn’t a little bit crazy, because I did something that, my friends said, couldn’t be done.

Rob Artigo: Right, crazy’s in the eye of the beholder. The last example is of course, based on the same example you gave, which is Elon Musk and SpaceX. To some people, he’s crazy, some people he’s delusional, but to Elon, he’s a risk-taker, and that risk is apparently paying off quite well because he’s had a lot of… Space-wise, they’ve done some amazing things that are just unbelievable and yet real, and so I guess whether you’re crazy or delusional, depends on the… Crazy, delusional or just a creative person is all in the eye of the beholder.

Ray Zinn: Well, in high school, I ran track and first I was just doing the 100-yard dash, and the broad jump, and that sort of thing, but I decided I was going to try out the hurdles. And my coach said, “You’re crazy. You’re too short. You need to be a taller person to run the hurdles.” So that convinced me that I should run the hurdles. So this was back when I was this teenager and I was very successful. I took fourth in the state in 1955, running the hurdles. And so, yeah, I’m very short. Those of you who know me, I’m not a tall person. And of course it was difficult running the hurdles, especially the high hurdles, because I had to alternate legs, and that means I had to be able to hurdle with either leg, which was very difficult to do, but I was convinced I could do it.

So was I crazy running the hurdles? No, in the sense the word, if I was willing to put forth the effort, like when I started Micrel with no money. I was willing to put forth the effort to be successful. So you might be delusional in other people’s minds, but if you’re willing to put forth the effort, you’re not being delusional. Now, that’s not gambling because gambling you don’t have control over, but if you have control over whatever your pursuit you’re going to have. Whether it be running the hurdles, or trying to get some other education that are difficult to do, or some of their occupation, as long as you have control over it, you’re not delusional.

Rob Artigo: Well, Ray, as always, our listeners can reach out to you with their questions at toughthingsfirst.com. They can continue their education and the conversation with all the podcasts, the blogs, links to your social media, and of course, there’s information about Tough Things First, the book, and also the series, the Zen of Zinn. Thanks, Ray.

Ray Zinn: Thanks, Rob. Good to be with you.

The Democrat’s national convention kicked off in 2024 under the constant threat of violence over war in the middle east, but it’s not hard to figure out the motivations. In this Tough Things First podcast, Ray Zinn discusses why violence can irrupt in politics and what to do about it.

Rob Artigo: There’s something in the news business, when I was a reporter, of course, we called it the news cycle, and this has been one heck of a political news cycle. I think it’s been going on for a couple of years, a lot of stuff with the various riots and things like that that we’ve seen on TV and heard about. This has been the strangest year for politics that I can remember. The president steps down from his campaign for reelection, which is huge. That hasn’t happened since ’68 or something I think thereabouts. And he’s not going to seek a second term. And then somebody attempted to assassinate Donald Trump. And so Tough Things First podcast, it’s not a political show, so we’re not going into politics so much as I thought we’d talk about the idea of political violence, because it can happen on an international level, a national level, local level, even in your office building, that sort of thing. Ray, does it start with words or does it start with actions?

Ray Zinn: Which comes first? The chicken or the egg?

Rob Artigo: Right.

Ray Zinn: Well, it could do both, but mostly starts with words. So almost all violence except for sexual or robbery or something like that, most of all violence, we’ll call it group violence, is related to political. I want what I want and I don’t care what you want type thing. And it’s very self-serving. They figure that the only way they’re going to get their point across is to have a violent reaction to it. There was a fellow that I just met a couple of days ago, actually, he’s with the FBI, and he was sent over to Georgia, which is near Russia, it used to be a Russian state, and when he had assignment over there, and so it was a long flight and he got in late, and he was trying to get it to his hotel and his friend, they couldn’t get very close to the hotel because the political government, I should say government facility, was in between him and the hotel.

And there was a big crowd of rioters there, and the police were firing tear gas and all kinds of stuff. So here he is trying to get to his hotel late at night, dragging his roller bag behind him, and, man, he’s frightened, and even though he is FBI, he sees this angry mob that they’re rioting over just the fact that their country, Georgia, was not doing very well and the government was taking all the money, and the people, the have-nots, as you would, were not being served well by the government, and so they were rioting against the government. And he said he was fearful for his life because they’d looked at him as just like a government official because of the way he was dressed and carrying his roller bag, and so they thought he was, as you would, one of the government people.

And so the police actually had to rescue him because the mob was attacking him. And [inaudible 00:04:12] is like a couple of hundred people attacking one person. And so he said after scary 15, 20 minutes he finally got to his hotel. But anyway, there are no prisoners in violence. They don’t take prisoners. They try to destroy life, as you would, or destroy what people have. So, again, violence, especially political is very detrimental. And the root of it is hatred. And we’ve talked about this before on podcasts is that hatred is at the root of all violence. In other words, if you don’t agree with me, I hate you. And I’ve actually had people tell me that, literally to my face, “If you don’t like what I want or what I say, I hate you.” And they’ve actually used those words. And so whenever we have hate or hatred, then we have violence.

Rob Artigo: Well, yeah, I just heard a story yesterday related to me about how a woman found out one of her young people, one of her kids, if you will… I think it might have been a grandmother and a grandchild, but the young one decided to register for a political party that angered the older person. And I won’t explain the parties, because it doesn’t really matter. The fact is the point still remains is that she was so enraged that she said she would disown that child if they re-registered in this particular political party because it was against their hardest heartfelt beliefs that that they should be doing that. So it’s one of those things where politics can divide families in a way that doesn’t make sense because it’s not very democratic. It’s just like violence, just like groups. If my political beliefs don’t agree with yours, it’s not enough for us to disagree, you have to hate me.

Ray Zinn: Well, it’s not just politics. I’ll say I’ve seen the same thing in religion, I’ve seen people get violent against religions, like the Jews are right now being hit upon, as you would, because of the Palestinian issue in Israel. And that’s a more of a religious thing as opposed to political. It’s not a political problem per se. I guess indirectly it’s political, but it’s more religious. It goes all the way back to the Bible times, and the argument over who owns what land and who has right to what land and so forth. Same thing with the Russians and the Ukrainians, again, it goes back to what their belief is regarding what belongs to them and what doesn’t belong to them. And it’s not political, I guess, as I said, indirectly political. The Ukrainians against the Russians and the Russians against the Ukrainians, or the Israelis against the Islamic terrorist is not, as you would, political so much. It actually goes down religious beliefs, as you would. So violence comes from lots of different sources and not just political parties arguing between themselves. Violence is manifested itself in lots of different ways.

It could be people breaking into stores to steal or to take possession of something that doesn’t belong to them because they feel it’s owed to them or they figure you don’t deserve it, so they’re going to take it and whatever. And so whether it’s wars or violence around the world, or whether it’s between political parties, it can be words, it can be physical, it can be economic, there are lots of different ways that we can have violence, but violence really should have no part in our life. And for our listeners, we would encourage you to love each other as opposed to hate each other. Even if you disagree, don’t be disagreeable. Maybe you don’t share the same feelings, but don’t become violent about it. Just let it go. Because everybody has a right to their own beliefs and opinions.

And maybe you don’t even agree to what we’re talking about on this podcast, but don’t manifest itself with violence or anger or whatever. Just let it go. And that’s the key to this podcast is that we have to get along even though we disagree with each other. Don’t be disagreeable, just disagree and let it go at that.

Rob Artigo: This is a fast-growing podcast rated one of the top in Silicon Valley. We’d like it to keep it that way, so why don’t you give us a rating on your favorite podcast platform. Please also check out Ray’s books, the Zen of Zinn series one, two, and three, and, of course, Tough Things First, his first book. We look forward to the next time, Ray.

Ray Zinn: Thank you.

“Loud quitting” is just foolish, but smart career moves can be a ladder to job satisfaction and success. In this Tough Things First podcast, Ray Zinn talks about how changing jobs is a skill in itself, and future employers will follow the trail. Will it send a good or bad message? (Watch Video Podcast Here…)

Rob Artigo: Well Ray, when I was a reporter in Reno, I got to know a guy named Kenny Guinn. He was the governor of Nevada. He was also a very wealthy businessman. I was talking to him and I told him that I was looking at a possible job offer in Fresno, and he did this very… I remember this vividly. He put his arm on my shoulder and he said, “If it’s a step up, take it,” and I didn’t take the job because it was really a step sideways. Fresno to Reno is really a step sideways, at least in radio it’s a step sideways. So I didn’t take it and I’ve always appreciated that advice, because it changed… It kept me on course for success in radio.

So Ray, for starters, let me just ask you, when do we know when it’s the right time to make a good career move?

Ray Zinn: Well, there are three reasons why we change jobs. One is, as you talked about, a step up to get a promotion, to get more pay or some advancement reason. The second is because you don’t like the job, you don’t like the company, you don’t like your boss. There’s a “don’t like” problem. That’s number two. Number three is is you want to relocate. In other words, you want to stay… Instead of living in Fresno or Sacramento, you want to live in Chicago.

So those are the three reasons. The advancement, it’s a “don’t like” situation where you don’t like the boss, company. Maybe you don’t like where you live either, but anyway. Then the third of course is that you want to change locations. Sometimes it’s because you want to be closer to family or because educationally it’s more advantageous to be at a certain area because of the schools you want to attend. So those are the three reasons why you want to change your occupation.

Rob Artigo: I would imagine you want to relocate because of the weather sometimes, and here in California it’s pretty hot.

Let’s bring in Zen of Zinn III. It’s one of your books, it’s part of your… This Zen of Zinn III is the third book in your series, Zen of Zinn, which has a bunch of nice short writings in it, and it’s an entire book that covers a bunch different topics, but a lot of wisdom in there.

Check out the bottom of page 25. It says, “Changing jobs can be both a benefit and a hindrance. If you’re considering changing employers, consider the following,” and there’s two points here on the next page. “Point one, don’t be a chain job changer. Changing jobs every couple of years is viewed negatively,” and also number two, “Don’t make a move unless the total compensation is at least 20% more than you are currently making.” It’s easy for me to say.

Ray, so let’s check out number one here. Tell me about being a chain job changer, and you as an employer and a person who has hired a lot of people in your lifetime, tell us how that negatively impacts a person’s resume and their potential employment with you.

Ray Zinn: Well, looking at it from the employer’s point of view, it’s expensive to train a person. Also, there’s an adjustment period where they have to get adjusted to the new job, the new area, and that’s a distraction. So if you’re a chain job changer, then that means that you’re going to be an expensive employee, because the company’s going to have to spend a lot of time and money training.

They say in war that don’t kill your enemy, wound them, it takes two to carry him off the field. So a chain job changer is like a wounded soldier. It takes people to help bring him on board, to train him, to get accustomed to the new software, the new… Just everything’s new, and so a chain job changer, I know it’s like Peter Piper picked a peck of pickled peppers, whatever.

Rob Artigo: Yeah, right.

Ray Zinn: Like that, it’s hard to say “chain job changer,” but it’s an expensive thing for an employer, and it also, probably more importantly, it shows you’re not loyal. Companies like loyal employees, and so loyalty is an extremely important attribute for employees.

We had the lowest turnover in our industry at Micrel, the company that I founded and ran for 37 years, and the reason we were so efficient was because we hired steady employees, people who are solid, people who are not chain job changers.

So anyway, that’s the key. The key is show your loyalty, show that you’re willing to work with your supervisor or the company, because there’d be good times, there’d be bad times, and so we like loyal employees.

Rob Artigo: Well, number two, here is a financial question and you put a number on it. You say 20%. You say, “Make sure that if you’re moving for more money, moving jobs for more money, make sure that it’s 20% more than you’re currently making.”

Ray Zinn: Yes, because again, moving for a small amount of money, unless of course you don’t like your boss or you said “don’t like” problem, don’t like where you live, moving for a small amount of money doesn’t look good to an employer, because it does go back to what I talked about earlier, about your loyalty, so just moving to be moving, moving straight across for the same amount of money, is a warning shot to the employer that you could be a problem employee.

So if you’re going to move, make sure you move for quite a bit more money, at least 20%, because again, you’re probably not going to get a raise at your new company for at least a year, and unless you timed it right when you left your old company, you could be a year or two years before you get another wage increase, and so don’t move for just five or 10%. Make it worthwhile, and that’s why I put that 20% figure in there, because that’s a more reasonable number if you’re going to consider changing jobs.

And there’s a risk in changing jobs for you as an individual, as an employee, because you may not be able to perform at that level, at what you need to get a bigger pay increase, and so you want to make sure that you have enough pay change to make it worthwhile for yourself.

Rob Artigo: And there are other considerations. Like you said, if you’re going to move to relocate for whatever reason, if you just want to… Maybe you want to live in Austin or you want to live somewhere in Montana or something like that, you can… Really you have to look at the expense of making that move and how much that’ll affect what the number actually pencils out to be, because if it’s 20% more and you end up paying that into just moving expenses, then that’s a balance.

Ray Zinn: Yeah, you have state taxes to worry about. Some states charge more income tax than other states, and so you got to make sure you take that into consideration. The cost of housing, you got to make sure you take that into consideration, and just cost of living in general, and so if you’re going from, let’s say, California to Montana, the cost of living is quite a bit less in Montana, so therefore you could take a flat pay increase because you’re going to make it up in the cost of living, or if you’re moving from Montana to California, then you got to look at a significant cost of living increase. It’s like 15, 20% higher in California than it is in Montana, so you got to make sure that you do cover that change in cost of living.

Rob Artigo: Well, we’ll wrap it up by talking about this. I just heard the other day or read the other day, that quiet quitting 2.0 is coming back, and obviously this means that people have decided to change jobs just to change jobs, and I imagine that what you have heard about quiet quitting the first time didn’t bode well for employees, and it probably won’t the next time.

Ray Zinn: Exactly. So loyalty, dependability, responsibility, accountability, all those things are good attributes to have as an employee, and of course, if I’m talking to employers, make sure the people you hire have those attributes of responsibility, accountability, dependability, loyalty, all those things that go to make a good employee.

Rob Artigo: Thanks Ray. This is a special edition of the Tough Things First podcast, and we really appreciate you joining the conversation with us here. At toughthingsfirst.com your questions and comments are always welcome at the website. You can follow Ray Zinn on Twitter, also known as X obviously, Facebook, LinkedIn, and of course, Ray’s books are available.

Tough Things First, and as you’ve seen and heard today, you saw Zen of Zinn III, but we also have Zen of Zinn I and II. You won’t regret picking up those books. Thank you, Ray for another great podcast.

Ray Zinn: Thanks, Rob.

Did you know stealing a pen from your employer is embezzlement? It might not seem like a big deal, but what it says about you IS a big deal. In this Tough Things First podcast, Ray Zinn discusses ethics and how little things become big things that create a negative workplace culture.

Rob Artigo: Ray, interpersonal communications, which obviously we’re doing here, expense reports, travel expenses, these are things most business people deal with, so let’s talk about handling ethical decisions at the ground level, in other words, where we’re penciling in mileage and things like that. I mean, when we’re making decisions at the ground level where we’re displaying ethics and where those ethics may come from in the course of your life and business life. I found this definition on the Santa Clara University Website on ethics. It says, “Ethics refers to well-founded standards of right and wrong that prescribe what humans ought to do, usually in terms of rights, obligations, benefits to society, fairness or specific virtues.” Do you agree with that particular definition?

Ray Zinn: Absolutely. I mean, I define ethics as doing what’s right when no one’s watching.

Ray Zinn Cont:I call it the paperclip syndrome. In other words, if you start stealing paperclips at work it’ll go on from there. Then it’s pencils, and then it goes on to thumb drives, and maybe other office equipment. And then, cheating at that root level, that it grows into something big. Everything starts small and then grows bigger, and so what you want to do is not even, as I call it the paperclip syndrome, don’t even consider even taking paperclips at work. As I said, it starts small.

Rob Artigo: Yeah, I’ve seen in job interviews where one of the questions is usually asked is have you stolen from any previous employer? And sometimes people will say, “Well, maybe I’ve taken a pen home.” Or they’ll suggest, “Haven’t you even just taken a pen home?” And they get down to just that kind of thing because I suppose they’re looking to see if you have a tendency to abscond with even the smallest items because that’s blow back on the bottom line.

Ray Zinn: Yeah. As I’ve called it, the paperclip syndrome, where if you just say, “Well, it’s just a paperclip, it’s only worth a couple pennies,” then it goes from there. We want to avoid even the appearance of dishonesty and, as I said, honesty or integrity and ethics is doing what’s right when no one’s watching. If people are watching, that’s one thing, that’s why we have cameras around and other surveillance devices to let people know, “Hey, we’re watching you,” but you should do what’s right when no one’s watching.

Rob Artigo: Right. And if we can do this by our own upbringing, what we’re used to and what we believe our real human standards are or we can rely on those forces in our workplace, for example, that set the tone. Is there a combination of those things that we should think about the most? Is it more going to be something that’s built in us or is it something that the company can do to obligate the employees to pay attention to ethics?

Ray Zinn: Let’s talk about that because, at the company level, if the employees feel the company is dishonest then they don’t have a problem taking and doing dishonest things at the company, and so it stems from the top. In other words, if the CEO or the president or managers and so forth, if they’re being dishonest their employees will end up being dishonest because monkey see, monkey do, as they say. The ethics of a company really start at the top and if you’re ethical, then as a leader, then it’s more likely your employees will be ethical. I like this TV program called American Greed and I see all kinds of things that take place that I was astounded with.

Just taking the Boeing 737 Max, and this issue about Boeing trying to save money and minimizing safety of the equipment and the product that they’re making, and that was on American Greed. Of course, some people lost their jobs over that but greed can even be at the highest level. Boeing is a huge company, and when you get your toe hold and trying to do some dishonest things then big things happen, people lose their lives and people lose fortunes. I’m not here promoting American Greed, I’m just saying is I see a lot of that dishonesty and unethical standards when I watch that program and see what these people are willing to do.

Rob Artigo: But if you use programs like that and just the stories in general about ethical lapses, if you will, then you’re going to learn something from that, and you can walk away from that with something in your toolbox to handle it.

Ray Zinn: Yep. Yeah, I mean, well, it’s just interesting. I guess I must have lived a very sheltered life because it’s always been … I’m the oldest of 11 children and it’s always been taught to us as children growing up how important honesty and integrity is. That’s something that I’ve had to deal with since I’ve been a child, being the oldest of 11, and setting the example for the rest of my siblings, so it is a concern in this country. After I said, watching this program called American Greed, I didn’t realize how prevalent it was but it’s incredible what people will do for money or for fame or fortune or whatever. It starts with little things. Just the smallest little dishonest task then leads to the next one and next one and so forth.

It’s kind of like pornography, it takes root, and it takes hold, and then pretty soon you’re stuck, then it goes on from there. Or drugs, same thing with drugs. Start off with a small drug and then pretty soon you just need more and more and more to satisfy your habit, and same thing with ethics. One little, small unethical action leads to more, and more, and more, and more until you find yourself in prison.

Rob Artigo: It’s interesting, I just watched an episode of Colombo, and I used to watch that show all the time, I probably watched that whole series a couple of times. But Colombo, of course, is a LA police detective who gets involved in these really intricate investigations, always involving a murder that takes place at the start of the show. And then, if you watch the show carefully, you look at usually that the motive at least begins with some aspect of ethical lapses on the part of the murderer, that they started with certain things that they were doing behind the scenes and they were going to get caught, and so they had to do some other action to cover up those ethical lapses. It’s just an example of how things can, even in fiction, they can snowball on you really fast and take one small ethical lapse and turn it into something that can ruin your life.

Ray Zinn: Well, honesty breeds honesty and dishonesty breeds dishonesty so that’s just the bottom line. Good brings on good and bad brings on bad. We can just leave it there.

Rob Artigo: Well, Ray, as always, the folks listening to us right now can reach out to you with their questions at toughthingsfirst.com. They can continue their education and, of course, the conversation with all the podcasts, blogs, and links to information about blogs, links to information about Ray’s books, Tough Things First, and The Zen of Zen Series, One, Two, and Three. Thanks, Ray.

Ray Zinn: Thanks, Rob.

Depending on who you listen too, a recession is either already here or just around the corner. In this Tough Things First podcast, Ray Zinn, who led a major tech company through good times and bad, discusses options for making your personal finances just as resilient.

Rob Artigo: Ray, I don’t think it’s a stretch, I really don’t, that far too many people have not saved enough money. Would you agree with that?

Ray Zinn: Uh-huh. For sure.

Rob Artigo: I figured there must be a few ideas that you have about things people can do to be more proactive, whether early on in life or now depending on whatever stage in life they are, looking at having to save money. If you’re starting early, starting late, there has to be some common sense ways to work things out. Can you start with a few ideas?

Ray Zinn: Well, it’s a good topic. Because of high inflation that we’re experiencing right now, people are hurting, and they’re having to dig into their 401s or having to dig into their other savings or selling off some of their investments. You never know, maybe a calamity, medical problem, or some family issue or some crisis around your community or home. A savings account is absolute, absolute necessity. You need a buffer, and that’s what the purpose of 401k, that’s why they came out, is to encourage the government and wants to encourage people to save money, because otherwise, we fall back on the government to save our bacon. Emergency will happen.

Ray Zinn Cont:If you’ve lived long enough, you know that not everything is peachy keen and roses. There are going to be some kind of a calamity. Something’s going to happen, and we’ve experienced it over the last three or four years with this high inflation, and that’s just really eaten into our income, as you would, or our buffer. People are having to rely now either on family, on their savings. Somewhere, they’re having to dig up money that they weren’t expecting to have to dig up just to survive.

Rob Artigo: I heard you talking about the debt. The country’s facing debt, and debt is increasing among households because of these various reasons in the economy. And debt costs money, and anything that costs money is obviously a detriment on savings. So I know you’re not a fan in business or in personal life of borrowing money, because it costs money, right?

Ray Zinn: Well, and the interest rate’s so high now, comparatively high than it was a few years ago. So again, cost of money has gone up, and it’s just really hurting a lot of people. I have a lot of friends who are really suffering now because of just what we’ve experienced over the last few years. So putting together a savings account is extremely important. So let’s talk about why or how I should say how do we do it. And as a young college graduate and just getting married, my wife and I decided that we were going to live only on a portion of the income that we made. So we set this rule that we would never spend more than 75% of what we earned, and that gave us 25% to stock away for a rainy day, as you would. And so never live at or above your means.

So you have to have a disciplined life. It’s tempting out there to buy that new car or to buy that fancy gimmick or whatever, gizmo. And so you just got to restrain yourself, take a deep breath and live on 75% of what you make. And it breaks down this way, like 50% for a living, the essentials, what we call the non-discretionary income, things like food, rent, that sort of thing, and then discretionary, that’s another 10 to 20% you could have for entertainment or just on things like TVs or what we refer to as non-essentials, but never exceed 75 to 80% of what you make. Just make a commitment. Just cross your heart and hope to die, stick a needle in your eye, you just got to live on 75% of your income. That’s the first thing. You can’t save what you don’t have, so you have to save it. And saving it is the key to having a savings account, and we’re back to what we said a minute ago. Make a commitment that you will not live on more than 75% of your income.

Rob Artigo: Is this something you can teach your kids early, and get them starting to save? I haven’t seen a piggy bank in a long time, but I imagine it’s never really too early to teach them the principle of saving something of every dollar that you earn.

Ray Zinn: Well, you’re example. As a parent, you’re an example. And so if your family, your children, your friends or whatever, if they see you living high on the hog as you would, high on the hog meaning you’re living at or above your income level and living on debt, as you would, you’re sending a bad example. My children have always seen me. My wife and I live on substantially less than what we earn, and we’ve always done that since we’ve been married, and we kept a budget. We have very, very strict budget. Once a month we sat down and reviewed our expenses and what we were able to put away for savings.

So I can truly say this, I’ve been married for 63 years, and I can truly say that I’ve always had a savings account. My wife and I have always had a savings account since day one. And so I’ve had too many family examples of going way beyond what you can afford, and that’s the challenge is living well within your means, and that’s what we have to set up as a golden rule. Just don’t exceed what you earn. And then of course, you want to have that 25 to 20, 25%, put a sock away for a rainy day, as they say.

Rob Artigo: Is it ever too late to start?

Ray Zinn: No

Rob Artigo: Making it a habit?

Ray Zinn: No, no, no. Good habits are easy to break, bad habits are easy to start. So the bad habit, of course, is when we talked about living beyond your means. The good habit, of course, is living within your means, well within your means so that you have some excess income that you can sock away for that rainy day.

Rob Artigo: You mentioned having a savings account, and I think we’ll end with this, but we have a 401k or we have a Roth IRA or IRA or an investment account, something like that. But you have a savings account, which is strictly cash, and usually not a great interest rate. I think I got a penny worth of interest a while back. It was kind of funny. I just thought, “Wow, that’s really not worth it.” But there is a lot to be said about taking a portion of your money and just putting it in a savings account, and then you have cash there, even though it’s not generating a whole bunch of money.

Ray Zinn: What I meant was, by savings, was not a savings account per se, but savings meaning money that you’re holding back from spending. Let’s put it this way. A savings is money that you’re holding back and not spending on either essential or non-essential items. So savings could be a 401k, it could be an IRA, it could be a mutual fund. Again, keep it simple, stupid, as they say, KISS principle, don’t get carried away, don’t get too risky and invest in Bitcoin or whatever. Put your money where you know you’ve got some security, it’s not high-risk. If you’ve got a substantial saving, let’s say you’re living on 25, 30% of what your income is, it’s okay to take a risk if you want to risk a portion of that money that you’re socking away, but make sure that risk matches what you can afford, what you can actually survive on, as you would.

So again, keep it simple. Don’t get too carried away with some really, I hate to use the term Bitcoin-type things, but the higher risk investments, because that’s like having no money as you would. Because the risk is too high you run the risk of losing all that money that your saving for a rainy day.

The question is what has more value, the price of an education or work experience? In this Tough Things First podcast, Ray Zinn says one has an edge over the other. He’ll explain why smart choices will help you navigate these life decisions.

Rob Artigo: I’m Rob Artigo, your guest host for this edition of the Tough Thanks First podcast. I’m a writer and former radio personality. Here with me once again is Ray Zinn, the longest serving CEO in Silicon Valley history. Hi Ray.

Ray Zinn: Hello Rob. Good to be with you again today.

Rob Artigo: Sure. I located a Pew research study that was recent, I think within the last week or two that it came out and it showed that only 22% of 5,200 college grads that were surveyed said that college is worth the cost if a student must take on debt. That’s only 22%. 47% said a four-year degree is worth it only if a student doesn’t have to take on loans and that leaves 29% of respondents who said college isn’t worth it no matter what. If you have debt or loans or whatever, it’s just not worth it.

Rob Artigo Cont:And obviously student debt has been in the news for the last year or more because of the Biden administration saying they were going to forgive some of the aspects of it. I think the forgiving interest on some of those loans, and I don’t know if people are too happy about that. You wrote me something recently on this and one of your musings that’ll make its way into print, I’m sure eventually.

Let’s start with that and I’ll bring in some of what you wrote a little bit later on, but let’s start with what do you think? I know that based on what you wrote, that obviously some jobs need a degree. I don’t know if matters for everybody, but it does for certain degrees and you think that that’s really the key question here is do you need it?

Ray Zinn: The cost of education is very expensive. You figure that depending upon where you go to school, it can cost anywhere from say, let’s say a two year, four year, six year, eight year. It’s going to cost around 20,000 a year just to go to school minimum. And then you have to live and you got to somehow to survive in the meantime. And so you got to figure out how long it’s going to take me to recoup that investment.

So if you’re a two year, you’re into it for 40 grand, you’re a four year, of course that’s 80,000 and could be going to a very expensive school that could run to quarter million dollars or even higher. So you got to do the math and decide is that degree really worth it? Meaning am I going to recoup my investment? So if you make something free where it doesn’t cost anything, then it doesn’t mean anything. And so as they say, no pain, no gain. If what you’re doing, you don’t have to pay for it, what good is it? There’s no value in something that doesn’t cost anything. You have to pay for something just to feel you’re contributing as you would.

Now, having all that said, going to school just for the sake of going to school is really a waste of time and money. Even though you’re young, you’re maybe you’re 18, 19 and you think, hey, you’re never going to die. Guess again. You will at some point. You’re going to have to pay for that expense as you would. And so the important thing is to, if you want to maximize on that education, maximize on the expense of that education, then you should know or at least figure out what kind of career you want to have.

Whether you want to be a hairdresser, whether you want to be a lawyer, or whether you be a doctor or construction worker, go to the school or get the education that you need for that particular occupation. Most occupations would say the majority of the occupations do not require a college education. They require experience, but they don’t require an education. Education unlocks the door. It’s experience that will help you succeed. So experience is actually more important than the education. So the education one would say unlocks the door, you’ll usually get paid more money. A person with a degree generally, generally I say gets paid more money, but then that money, that extra money you’re going to get because you have a degree should offset the cost of your education.

If your parents are paying for it or if the government’s paying for it or the military’s paying, whatever. If it’s all free, you don’t have to pay for it. Then you’re going to be less concerned about what kind of education you’re going to get. I know this sounds strange, but you should look forward to paying for your education yourself, not relying on your parents or relying on someone else to pay for your education. The best stories you hear are people who said they had to work as a dishwasher or work at a restaurant, or they had work in cleaning up the buildings or whatever to pay for their education.

I worked for my education, I worked and went to school. I didn’t get a freebie education. And so even if your parents are paying for it, you’re less likely to treat that as a valuable resource than if you have to pay for it yourself. Of course, if the government pays for it, that’s even worse. And so if there’s no pain, there’s going to be no gain, and so be scrupulous about what kind of a career you want, where you want to live. If you want to live in Washington DC then politics is probably the more prevalent education you’d want. Or if you’re going to work in a health industry, you’re going to work around some major hospitals and if you’re going to live in a rural area in the country, maybe you want to learn how to be a farmer or something or in construction.

So depending upon where you want to live, how you want to live, what you want to glean from the time you’re going to be spending learning, make sure it matches what your objectives are. We talked in one podcast about having clear goals and way points and knowing where you’re headed so you don’t just go in circles. The best thing to do is to really make a stab at really what kind of career you want, where do you want to live, how do you want to live? And then let that guide what kind of education that you want to have.

Rob Artigo: Yeah, I’m looking at these interest rates that if you had a new loan from a college since July of 2023 through next month, 2024, new loan that started. The fixed interest rate is, depending on undergraduate, graduate, and professional, and then parents and graduate or professional students. And some of these are subsidized loans and some of them aren’t. Apparently if it’s a subsidized loan, they don’t have to pay interest while they’re in school, but then it accumulates afterwards. But these percentages are five and a half percent, 7.05%, and 8.05%, which is a significant number if you end up talking a hundred thousand dollars or something like that. That’s a lot to have to deal with.

But at the same time, have you noticed there are certain things that you, classes you have to take if you go to the school, you have to, and most of them are social engineering type classes. They don’t say, “Hey, look, we’re going to give you a class that tells you exactly what to expect from a student loan.” So that they go into it eyes wide open. They mostly go into it completely ignorant and probably accumulate most of their debt in the first two years.

Ray Zinn: Yeah, not to beat a dead horse, but an education is only worth it if it helps you through life. If it helps you live where you want to live and how you want to live, then that’s how you should measure the value of your education. So going to school for the sake of going to school is a dumb way to do it. Just to say you have a college degree is not going to help you live a better life.

As I said earlier, getting an education opens doors, but experience is the one that’ll help you succeed. In other words, you can get the best education in the world, but if you don’t have the experience to go along with it, you’re not going to do very well. So again, education just opens the door. It’s the experience that you’re going to gain from that education that’s going to help you succeed.

Rob Artigo: Yeah. There’s also a loan fee when you take out your first loan. Let’s say it’s a $20,000 loan, I don’t know how much the amounts are, but let’s say it’s $20,000 and when you get the loan, you’re not going to get $20,000. It’s going to be minus 1% or thereabouts because they take a fee right off the top, which is, I mean, people just don’t understand what they’re doing to themselves. And like I said, it has to be worth it.

Well, Ray, our listeners can join the conversation at toughthingsfirst.com and if they have questions or comments, they can also reach out to you there at toughthingsfirst.com, and you can follow Ray on X on Facebook and LinkedIn and of course, pick up Ray’s books. Tough Things First, and the Zen of Zinn one, two, and three. Thanks, Ray.

Ray Zinn: Thanks, Rob.

Running in circles pushing a cart full of goals will lead to two things. Exhaustion and a cart full of unfulfilled goals. In this Tough Things First podcast, Ray Zinn explores the difference between action for action’s sake and action with purpose. (Watch the Video Podcast here.)

Rob Artigo: Rob Artigo here, once again your host for this edition of The Tough Things First podcast, a special edition of the Tough Things First podcast. If you are listening to this and you’d like to watch it on video, we have it on Ray’s YouTube channel. And the link is right next to the intro for this at toughthingsfirst.com, so it is available to you. We try to do at least once a month. And it’s a great opportunity to see what we look like because we’re very handsome gentlemen. I’m an entrepreneur in California. Also, you may remember me as a radio broadcaster. I was at KGO in San Francisco, Seattle, and also in Sacramento I was a journalist on the air.

And Ray, it’s always great to be back here at Tough Things First to do another podcast with you. Ready for one?

Ray Zinn: You bet. Thank you, Rob. Good to be with you again.

Rob Artigo: And again to remind people, it is a video podcast so you can watch it if you want.

Well, Ray, I grabbed your book and here it is right here, one of your books. This is Zen of Zinn 3. This is the third iteration of Zen of Zinn. And you describe it as being a series of Ray Zinn original Proverbs, right? Isn’t that how you describe it?

Ray Zinn: Yeah, it’s like the thought for the day, how you can improve your life.

Rob Artigo: Well, I went through and I picked one out. And there is, and I’ll show people, there’s, this one’s illustrated. You can see pictures. And there’s also several of these sayings and proverbs that are on here on each page. So I picked out one on page 35 here that talks about, “Studies show that without clear goals and specific landmarks, we just walk in circles.” And I’ll read a little bit more of what that said, I’ve got here on my screen. It says, “While walking in circles may seem like we’re making progress, we’re obviously not. And if you want to not walk in circles,” it’s a little paraphrase there, “If you don’t want to walk in circles, you want to have clearly defined goals and specific landmarks to keep you moving in the direction you want to go.”

So let’s talk about clear goals for starters. To you, what is a clear goal compared to a goal that does not quite reach the level of the clarity that you’re thinking of?

Ray Zinn: Okay, well, it kind of goes to another podcast that we’re going to do. It’s like knowing what you want to do for a career and why you’re attending school, whether it be high school, or college, or advanced education. If you don’t know what you want to do for a career, you’re more likely to take the wrong classes or not get the most benefit from your education. And it’s hard to have a clear goal when you’re 17 or 18 years old, but the better you can define where you want to head in life, the less the reacting or circling you’re going to be doing as you progress. Because it’s the first five or six years of your formative life after high school as you would that really define who you are. And so you want to make sure that you have at least to some degree, an idea of really what kind of a career, where do you want to head? Where do you want to go?

I know that some people are spontaneous and they just go in whatever direction and they just live their life that way. It’s a little chaotic. There’s no rhyme or reason to do what they do or how they do it. They just go. And I have a friend who’s had seven different occupations in his life. He worked in construction, he was a plumber, he was an electrician, he was a salesperson. I mean, he just kicked around. Now, that may be where you want to be. Maybe you just want to kick around. Maybe you don’t have any clear direction in your life, but if you want to make the most of your life where you can definitely say that you’re on the right path, the path that you want, what we say right being right for you, then you need to think clearly what kind of education or experience you need, both education and experience are necessary to succeed.

So the earlier you can define that, the better off you’re going to be, so you won’t be walking in circles or having to just go from pillar to post as you would. So think through or be able to define where you’d like to go, where you’d like to be in 10 years, and then draft a plan to help you get there. So I know people that are in their fifties that still haven’t got a clear understanding of what they want to do, and so they think as long as they’re putting food on the table and paying their rent, that’s good enough. And fine, if that works for you, then that’s fine. Then you’re not walking in circles, you’re just walking. Maybe you’re not going any particular direction, but you’re just moving along. And unfortunately too many of us spend too much time just walking in circles or just walking without a specific landmark or goal in mind.

So think through clearly. Maybe you talk to your parents, maybe you talk to your friends, maybe you talk to your schoolmates, whatever. Get input from them. Ask them. There are studies that are done that you can look online and find out where you’d like to live because where you’d like to live also defines what kind of a career you’re going to have, or the career that you’ll need. So think it through. Don’t hesitate to ask questions and get other people’s thought. Look online. There’s lots of information, YouTube videos for different occupations. And so we don’t know what’s right for you, but you should, and determine that early on so that you’re not just walking in circles.

Rob Artigo: You mentioned a friend of yours who is in his fifties and still operating that way. So you correctly identified college as one of the obvious goals you have to get into because this affects, and another podcast we’re going to do, talk about money that we spend on education and where it’s worth it. I mean, if you’re walking in circles in an academic environment, you could be burning a lot of funds.

But in other areas of our lives, in businesses that we start, in career paths we choose within a corporate structure or whatever we decide we want to do, those goals are important in those times as well. Correct?

Ray Zinn: Although the person I was referring to was an individual who went to dental school and then he didn’t like being down in the mouth as they say, and so he went and got a law degree and started practicing law. So that’s a huge waste of money and cost to start off in one thing and end up in another. So I can’t imagine the amount time, and energy, and money he spent getting that dental degree, DDS, only to end up as a lawyer. And so we got to define what we want, when we want it, and if we want to make the most efficient use of our resources, then we need to understand really what makes us happy. What do we want to do? What kind of career path do we want to have that’s going to lead us in the direction that’s going to help us be more successful?

Rob Artigo:

Yeah, I know that landmarks are those way stations in between the goal and the starting point. So when we look at, when we consider landmarks, when we have that goal in mind, how do we identify the specific landmarks that we should maybe put on a calendar or write it down, that we indicate. Okay, so the near term goal, sometimes, in my experience, identifying the goal is important and has to be clear like you’ve already described, but looking at say the four-year degree or then going on to getting a higher degree later on, and you might be in six years of college and beyond that, who knows depending on the level of study that you’re going for, but that seems insurmountable. If you think about, oh wow, that goal is down there. How far do I have to go? But the nearer term goals, if you take them into pieces, you might have a better chance of recognizing that it’s doable and it’s something that you can succeed doing.

Ray Zinn: Well, again, the whole purpose of landmarks is to give you some way points to guide you in the direction you want to go, whether it be marriage, whether it be family, whether it be where you want to live, define those landmarks or those way points and see that you’re on that path, that journey that will bring you the most happiness and success.

Rob Artigo: Well, I also know that the idea that you have to be somewhat flexible has to be part of your plan. I’m assuming based on my experience talking to you, but also knowing about your career and your successes with Micrel and other areas of the tech world that you have to be flexible, and you can make those goals and you can make those landmarks, but you have to think of them as not etched in stone in the sense that you can’t pivot if you have to. Am I correct in that?

Ray Zinn: Well, there’s a proverb, blessed are the flexible, for they shall not be bent out of shape. Flexibility is important. And again, it depends upon where you want to live. You want to live in Alaska. That’s a different set of way points and guidelines that you need to do that. Or if you want to live in Mexico, or in Europe, or wherever it is that you want to end up with your career, that defines also what kind of family, what kind of life and education that you’ll need. So again, being flexible is important.

I was very fortunate, I mean, coming out of school at the age of 21, or 22, maybe I guess I was. Yeah, 23 I guess. Then I just really didn’t know exactly what I wanted to do because we didn’t have YouTube and all the other great studies that are available to us online back when I grew up. And so I had to talk to my neighbors, my friends, and get an idea of really what kind of a career did I want?

I actually started out in the aerospace area and ended up in semiconductors because I was flexible, meaning semiconductors was a brand new field and that interested me, and thank goodness my education somewhat matched both those fields, aerospace and semiconductors. And I did well on both of them, but my true love or my final love was semiconductors.

Rob Artigo: Well, Ray, I want to remind our listeners that this is a special edition of the Tough Things First podcast. We’re doing it on video, available on your YouTube channel, Ray Zinn, and also by going to the website and finding podcasts, and clicking on the link that’s next to the intro for this podcast. And of course you’ll be able to find it because it refers to… And I’ll give you the title of it so people will know. Basically, Circular Action is Not Action is the topic here.

Ray, as always, our listeners can reach out to you at toughthingsfirst.com, continue their education, which as you’ve heard in this podcast, not only are goals important and those way points along the way that you have to be thinking about, but your education also. And it goes on and on. And you can get that here at toughthingsfirst.com and in the Tough Things First podcast.

Ray, you have your books. You have Tough Things First, your first book, and then you have Zen of Zinn 1, 2, and 3, which you’ve obviously heard an excerpt of that here in this podcast.

So great podcast, Ray. Thanks a lot.

Ray Zinn: Thank you, Rob.