Tough Things First

Rob Artigo: Ray, as you know, a couple of times each month we do a video podcast. So this is a special edition of the Tough Things First podcast on video. You can watch it by going to toughthingsfirst.com and you can find this podcast by looking at the podcast and then right where the podcast is led into is a little thing that says watch now and you can do that. So today we’re talking about something that sounds basic, but is actually one of the toughest things first for many leaders. It’s called civility, specifically how civility strengthens human relationships, drives better business results, and why it all depends on one skill, awareness of other people’s perspectives where they’re coming from. Ray, why do you think civility feels harder today than it ever has?

Ray Zinn: Well, I’m not sure it’s any different. Harder we’ll talk about, but I don’t think it’s any different than we’ve had. Remember back in the revolutionary time, I’ve forgotten now, but there was two political leaders that actually had a gunfight, a duel. And so this animosity, this antagonism has always existed in politics. That’s why we refer to it as dirty politics. And I’ve never, of course, in my lifetime, I’ve never seen it worse. I’ve seen it as bad, but not any worse than it is now. So it’s to the point where they refuse to even acknowledge each other. Even celebrating something like the 4th of July, they weren’t even willing to acknowledge their relationship on a great anniversary of the 250th, the birth of this nation. So I think it’s a power struggle. I think anytime their power feels threatened, then they feel they need to lash out.

It’s almost like a war. A war is a battle between two opposing parties. And so instead of looking at the relationship and trying to build relationships between differing opinions, they choose to go to battle like we currently have in Iran. They want to bomb each other and destroy the opposition physically, not just psychologically, but physically. The animosity is just over the top.

Rob Artigo: Well, let’s talk a little bit about perspectives. Perspective awareness isn’t about agreeing with the other person or excusing bad behavior. So I mean, kind of going in with what you were talking about with the Iran situation. But I mean, can we be curious here, over-reactionary and get a different perspective? I think when it comes to. We’re not an international affairs show here. We’re not a political show here.

Ray Zinn: No.

Rob Artigo: But at the same time, just using it as an example, we’ve seen the behavior of one side pretty clearly over years, if not decades. And it’s hard to take a step back for a second and say, maybe there’s something different going on here. But still perspective-wise and being civil. And I think another example you brought up recently was just interpersonal relationships. If you’re having a discussion with somebody and you’re talking bad about them, you’re not really helping with the civility situation, just virtue of what you’re saying.

Ray Zinn: Exactly. So the thing that concerns me the most is that we’re not willing to listen. You can’t learn if you’re talking. And so we need to spend less time talking and more time listening to each other. Not just listening to the words, but listening to the reaction, listening to other commentary that they’re presenting. And we’re not talking about Republicans, Democrats, and Independents, we’re talking about people. These are human beings. They have their feelings, they have their differences. And you and I are good friends, but we have our differences. And we don’t have to look at differences as being bad. And I think that’s what’s happening is we’re looking at differences as being evil or terrible or bad. And we have to step back a pace and say, “What is it about this particular subject that is differing with my view on that subject?” And then listen, not just babble on, but that’s an interesting word, babble on, but to be concerned enough to show sincere concern why there’s that difference between the two of us or the groups as you would.

Rob Artigo: Let’s talk about business. In the business world and in the business environment, why is civility a competitive advantage, not just a nice to have trait?

Ray Zinn: Well, because if you respect your opponent, then they’re going to be less antagonistic. And even in a football game or a sports match, the less trash talking, the less badmouthing that we do, the more likely it is we’ll enjoy the competition. I remember playing ping pong with my wife when I was younger, and I used to give her a hard time about the missing shots and stuff that she took. And she says, “I’m not enjoying this at all. So if you’re going to do this, then we’re not going to play ping pong together.” And I learned a lesson about that very early on in our marriage that you don’t want to make competitive relationships hard on each other. You want to make it enjoyable. So when I was running Micrel, I actually enjoyed my competition. I didn’t badmouth them. I really respected them. And it’s called healthy competition.

Healthy, you’ve heard that term. And so healthy competition is one where there’s a relationship where a person is competing against another person, but it’s done in a good way. It’s done in a way to promote civility, to promote civility. Do you see the difference?

Rob Artigo: Yes. And you mentioned the word opponent early on. And when you are referring to an opponent, particularly in a business environment, you’re talking about someone you see as a friendly adversary, somebody who is… You’re competing on a level of business, but not on a level of like you want to wreck somebody or destroy somebody. It’s a figure of speech. You don’t see them as the enemy. You see them as a foe in the sense that we do when we play football or we run track, we line up on the starting line to sprint. We’re next to people that we’re competing against. They are the foe, but they’re not necessarily an enemy.

Ray Zinn: That’s right. 100%. Yeah. When we view anyone as an enemy, that takes on a whole different view and posture. We look at them as an opponent with an opposing view, whether it be pricing, whether it be technology, what to call a friendly competition. And we ought to have, referring back now to this civility thing, we ought to have a friendly disagreement where we choose to agree to disagree. And we’re not going to convince everybody of what we believe is correct or right in our mind. We just need to make sure that we understand their position because it has to start there to understand why they believe the way they do and then not make it a unfriendly bashing, saying nasty things about each other. And so I refer to it as friendly disagreement. That’s what civility is, friendly disagreement.

Rob Artigo: And let’s wrap it up with one last thought on that. And that’s that you can tell when somebody views another person as an enemy, but when they can celebrate or even vocalize a negative thing about that other person when you’re… I’ll put it another way, kicking a person when they’re down. If you’re kicking them when they’re down, then you’re not doing anything that’s going to help you in a matter of civility going forward because you’re going to be viewed as somebody who just wants to hit when the person is weak.

Ray Zinn: The primary solution to civility is humility. So humility goes along with civility. And humility is the willingness to listen to another person’s opinion. That’s what humility is or viewpoint. Whether it be a marriage, whether it be a child-parent relationship, a business, differences within the organizations. We’re going to have differences. Differences are a matter of fact. That’s just nature. We’re just going to be different. But not berating and not hammering these differences is the key to civility. So having humility goes along with being civil. So we call it the civil humility.

Rob Artigo: Thanks, Ray. Great wisdom there and we appreciate it. And to our listeners, this week, I guess your challenge is to pick one interaction you have with someone, whether it’s personal or professional, where you’d normally react quickly. Maybe you could take a second, sit back for a moment and seek the other person’s perspective and respond with civility. Even if it’s a negative thing coming at you, you don’t have to respond with being negative. Note the difference it makes in your life. Join the conversation at toughthingsfirst.com. Your questions and comments are always welcome. Follow Ray on X, Facebook and LinkedIn. And of course pick up Ray’s books. They’re great. The Tough Things First. The Essential Leader, which is a fantastic business leadership book just as a great tale to Tough Things First and the Zen of Zen series. And the one, two, and three, of course, and also Zen of Zen Daily, which is out now.

Thanks again, Ray.

Ray Zinn: Thanks, Rob.

Rob Artigo: Today we’re tackling a foundational but often avoided topic, morality. Specifically, what’s the difference between being moral and amoral and is morality actually deteriorating either in the United States or around the world? So Ray, let’s start with the definitions. Why does the distinction between these two matter?

Ray Zinn: Okay, so morality is based on the moral law, which comes from the 10 Commandments of the book of Moses. It refers to, “Love thy neighbor as thyself, thou shall not commit adultery, thou shall not steal. So that’s the moral law.” The moral law is the God-given law that most countries that follow the moral law have as part of their constitution and their legal system.

So that’s we call the moral law. Being moral, meaning following the 10 Commandments. Amoral is defined by law of the government. In other words, the government defines a law as opposed to it coming from the Mosaic law or from the Book of Moses, the Pentateuch, not based on the 10 Commandments such as speeding, such as tax law, other forms of laws, house construction. Those are referred to as amoral. Amoral simply means not necessarily associated with the moral law or the 10 Commandments.

So there’s lots of laws, we got laws for everything, gun carry with regard to certain construction requirements. So those laws are not based on the 10 Commandments.

Rob Artigo: Looking at the bigger picture, many people feel like morality is declining. Is it really deteriorating in the world or is it just a perspective that we have stronger here in the US?

Ray Zinn: Well, I think it’s deteriorating around the world. I don’t necessarily believe it’s just the US. And let’s talk about how do we measure it? How do we measure deterioration? And it has to do with religion, not having a religious aspect to your life. Fewer and fewer people are considering themselves religious. And so that’s a measure of morality as you would, is being non-religious. So without that religious contingency or that factor in your life, you tend to not concern yourself or follow what we refer to as the moral law. So that’s what I see as happening is the deterioration of people attending religious services or being involved in religious services. Back in the day, as you would in the ancient times, the social relationship between communities or within communities was church, was religion. In fact, the church building was the center of the town or of the community.

That hallmark or having that religious symbol was important in that day because that’s how people socialized. But now with the internet and with churches no longer being the center of a community, that has caused, I think, a morality issue in the communities, whether it be in our country or in the US or outside and other countries.

Rob Artigo: What advice would you give today’s leaders who want to strengthen morality in their teams and their organizations?

Ray Zinn: It’s to promote it. Promote morality rather than degradate it as you would. They need to promote morality. They need to promote the mosaic law. I remember it wasn’t a few years ago they weren’t even allowing to have the 10 Commandments in the classroom. We’re trying to eliminate all religious symbols in our daily lives, whether it be prayer, no longer can even have prayer anymore. The Pledge of Allegiance, “One nation under God”, they’re trying to eliminate that. That was put in back in Eisenhower’s time. “One nation under God” was put in and now we’re trying to take it out and on our coins, “In God we trust”, we’re trying to take that out. And so we’re trying to, as a country and our relationship with the rest of the world, we’re trying to eliminate God. And when you do, you degradate or deteriorate morality.

Rob Artigo: Yeah, it becomes moral relativism. That’s a big thing there that’s being pushed in schools right now. So the question I would have for you lastly here is, is there hope for reversing this trend?

Ray Zinn: It depends upon what our leaders do, what kind of examples we’re setting. Each of us is an example. Individually, we need to promote morality. I remember when I was visiting England and some of the cathedrals and some of the other religious architecture they had in England, I noticed that there were very few people attending those things. And I was asking one of the docents there, “Why is it hardly anybody is going to church?” And she says, “Well, that’s because religion’s considered for older people.” And I thought that was interesting. So it’s the older people, I guess because they feel more tenuous in their life that they’re being more religious. But it was interesting that that young person said, “Religion’s for older people.”

Rob Artigo: I have heard that some of that is starting to come back in the minds of young people.

Ray Zinn: Yes, yes.

Rob Artigo: I don’t know if that’s around the world, but I’ve heard that occurring and-

Ray Zinn: No.

Rob Artigo: … that’s a hope it’s-

Ray Zinn: It’s happening around the world. That’s true because the younger people are recognizing the deterioration of morality and that is causing them to want to reverse that. So I do think there is hope for that because the younger generation is seeing the impact of non-morality or amorality is having a major influence on their life.

Rob Artigo: Well, our listeners can take an honest look at the moral culture in their organization. So your team, even your home is a place for this sort of thing. Are you actively building a moral framework or allowing a morality to creep in? This week you can identify one area where you can raise the standard and do the tough things first by addressing it. Right, Ray?

Ray Zinn: Absolutely. Let’s go for it.

You have heard it said many times, but most people get it wrong. In this Tough Things First podcast, Ray Zinn uses smart business logic not magic to demystifying the proverb “Trust But Verify.”

Rob Artigo: I’m Rob Artigo, joined once again with Ray, as you’ve just heard his voice right there, founder, longtime CEO at Micrel Semiconductor for 37 profitable years. Ray, today, we’re unpacking a well-known phrase, trust but verify. That was a phrase that was popularized back in the 80s by President Ronald Reagan. He famously used those words during the Cold War era nuclear disarmament negotiations with the Soviet Union. And that worked out well in the near term after that, but obviously, it’s important. Trust but verify. How did you apply this at Micrel over four decades?

Ray Zinn: First of all, Ronald Reagan meant that as an oxymoron. Let’s unpack or unbox-

Rob Artigo: Okay. Yeah, let’s do that.

Ray Zinn: … unbox the term. If you trust somebody, you don’t have to verify. It’s an oxymoron to say, I trust you, but I need to verify it. Because trust inherently eliminates the need for verification. And so if we think about the new EV vehicles that are now self-driving, we recently heard of a serious accident where a woman was killed by an EV vehicle that was still being watched or managed by a driver, but something happened with the self-driving software, so there’s a good example of trust, but verify. They’re blaming the driver who was apparently doing something else and not paying attention and watching his car. So you can trust as you would the managing of the car by software, but then being a backup or being a safety, verifying that there’s not something gone wrong with the system. So while it does sound a little bit like an oxymoron, because if you truly trust it, you do, you have to verify it.

Having said that, there are ways that you can still trust someone to do a good job in their occupation, but verify it through peaceful or good means where you are validating that something is being done properly. But I don’t want to minimize the value of trust. When you truly trust somebody, you don’t have to micromanage them. If you’re a micromanager and using that bad term of micromanaging, that means you’re basically asking them to do a job, but you’re basically taking it over and doing it yourself, that’s micromanaging. Or always questioning what they’re doing. If you’re always questioning what your employees are doing, you’re micromanaging. That’s the bad side of micromanaging. And then there’s a good side of micromanaging that we cover in our book where you are trust but verifying, meaning you are letting them do the job, but you’re watching the output. In other words, you’re looking at the results and making sure that that matches what the trust that you should employ with your employee.

Rob Artigo: The micromanaging, and you mentioned the book, The Essential Leader, there’s a whole chapter on that and that’s the right way to do micromanaging and how micromanaging gets a bad rap because people don’t do it right. And I think that’s where we’re going with that is that micromanaging can be, you can be a micromanager and do the trust, but verify and then verify heavy-handed, but micromanaging the right way, that is verifying without damaging relationships.

Ray Zinn: Because verifying as a consequence, like what President Trump said, that during the verification process that Iran is not adhering to the MOU, then he’s going to just bomb the heck out of them. And so …

Rob Artigo: Yikes.

Ray Zinn: … the verification comes with a penalty. And that’s the big problem of the process of verifying is how critical you are going to be in your response. And so with your employees, when you verify, and you see an issue, rather than bomb the heck out of them, you sit down with them and say, how can we improve this particular area, what can we do different or better, how can I help you? As opposed to, I’m going to blow your mind or I’m going to sever your ties with the company.

Rob Artigo: Yeah. And here’s a Ray Zinn checklist for you, built on doing the Tough Things First and also the details that we find in The Essential Leader, your other big book. Practical ways leaders can verify without damaging relationship. That’s the type of verify you’re talking about here is you’re not heavy-handed with the verification. So number one, this is a three-point checklist that the listeners can get out a pen and write it down, or pencil, whatever. Write it down, make a note, and then think about these things to help develop your own leadership skills. So the first one is having clear expectations upfront. Everyone knows the goals, timelines and how progress will be measured. There aren’t any surprises. It’s just getting the information out there makes a difference, right? Making sure that people understand what’s going on.

Ray Zinn: It’s like knowing where their limitations are. That’s the key. Know the strength and the weaknesses of your employees. So you double up on their strength, and you have double down on their weaknesses. So again, you don’t beat them over the head with their weaknesses, but you recognize it, and you plan for it. In a particular design, if there’s a particular area that is vulnerable to having error, you back it up. You verify it. You don’t want your employees to fail. In other words, what you want to do is build your system so that they win and not lose.

That’s the problem we’re having in politics today is we have this built-in loss or built in … We’re hoping they lose or hoping they fail, and that’s just not a good situation. So you want to have your process and procedures in place such as that you don’t hope that they lose, you hope that they win, and you provide that mechanism that allows them to win, and you minimize when they fail or when they lose. So as long as your employees know that you’re not going to blow the heck out of them, bomb them, their death or whatever, when they slip on a particular area, then they’re more likely to improve and grow …

Rob Artigo: Yeah.

Ray Zinn: … as opposed to want to protect themselves.

Rob Artigo: It’s the holding on to that trust thing, making sure that they continue to have the sense of trust that you have in them.

Ray Zinn: Exactly.

Rob Artigo: And number two is regular light touch-ins like short updates, dashboards, quick walkthroughs, instead of a heavy oversight that overwrought micromanaging can be.

Ray Zinn: Right. So again, you don’t want to be banging them over the head with a stick. You want a light touch checking up, seeing how they’re doing. Look at them as a loved one, as somebody that you admire, so treat them like they’re very valuable, like they’re delicate, and they need that soft support as opposed to that hard line macro managing where they get beat over the head.

Rob Artigo: Number three, focus on outcomes in learning. I know you alluded to this, but this is definitely one that I think about when I think about the Ray Zinn style. When something is off, ask what can we learn rather than who’s at fault in pointing the fingers.

Ray Zinn: Exactly. Right.

Rob Artigo: This turns verification into coaching.

Ray Zinn: Exactly. That’s what good coaching does. Good coaching strengthens, bad coaching disciplines. So you want to be high on coaching on the positive and less coaching on the negative. Meaning where you don’t want to be as hard line coach that you’re looked upon as being an enemy as opposed to being a friend. So a coach as a friend, not as an enemy.

Rob Artigo: Ray, thanks for breaking this down so clearly for us. The listeners should check out Ray’s books, The Essential Leader and Tough Things First. They both dive into these kinds of practical fundamentals. Grab a copy wherever books are sold. Visit Tough Things First for more episodes, the blog, and information about Ray Zinn and ZinnStarter, the mentoring program. So what’s your experience with trust but verify? You can share in the comments at toughthingsfirst.com. And remember, do the tough things first. Verify early, often, and trust can actually grow right, but you’ve got to be able to do the verification the right way. Right, Ray?

Ray Zinn: Exactly. Verify lovingly.

Can an entrepreneur succeed and staying profitable even when some much seems out of control? In this Tough Things First podcast, Ray Zinn has a reality check and some words of inspiration. (Watch Now!)

Ray Zinn: Hey Rob, good to be with you today.

Rob Artigo: Ray, this is a special edition of the Tough Things First Podcast. We are on video. Listeners can, if they want to watch, go to toughthingsfirst.com, navigate to this podcast, and then just click on watch now and it’ll open up on your YouTube channel. And there’s a bunch of other videos there as well if they want to watch them.

Today’s topic, leading through geopolitical whiplash, staying profitable when the world shakes with fresh US ren negotiations all over the news right now, it’s really dominating world affairs. This recent memorandum of understanding, there’s talks in Switzerland that went on ongoing ripples around the Strait of Hormuz, and energy markets, global uncertainty, really front and center.

So let’s start with the current landscape. We’re seeing progress in US-Iran talks. Depends on which side you’re listening to. We know that President Trump tends to be more optimistic and the Iranians tend to want their people to think they’re being tough. So they say a lot of things that are just different than what the US government is saying regarding the negotiations, and there’s no real way to tell what’s going on behind those closed doors. So there’s this 60-day roadmap efforts to reopen the shipping lanes, oil swings. How should leaders view this kind of volatility right now?

Ray Zinn: It’s interesting because you have both countries that are trying to be optimistic. Iran’s trying to be optimistic, United States is trying to be optimistic, which is good. I mean, if you look at some of the best football games, both sides are optimistic. Both sides believe they’re going to win. It’s got to be a win-win. It’s got to be a win-win for Iran. It’s got to be a win-win for the United States. The definition of what win-win is open for discussion. That’s what we’re going to talk about today. In any case, every country that has been involved with the United States has really done pretty well. I mean, look at Venezuela getting rid of Madura. Venezuela is doing much better now that they’ve got a cooperation with the US.

When we become good competitors as opposed to bad competitors, that’s when both sides win. So that’s the win-win when both sides benefit. The Iranian people are very intelligent, very well-educated, and they’re technically a very strong people, and have been since the beginning of time as you would for thousands of years. Anytime you’re ruled by a theocracy, again, that becomes difficult because you’re trying to merge a theocratical set of policies against really what works in the world today. If your politics are such that you believe you’re the only one that’s right and everybody else is wrong, that’s when you don’t get along. Whether it be neighbors, whether it be friends, whether it be spouses, whether it be children, there’s always that issue of balancing win-win. You can’t always have it your way. You to have it both ways.

And I think the current administration in the US trying to make it a win-win for both countries. If the belief is that the one country is going to destroy the world or destroy society, that’s going to affect the other side, which doesn’t want to be destroyed as you would. And so rather than putting a marker on who’s who there, we’ve got a conflict currently in the Middle East with Iran and their neighbors and also with what we call the free world. And if you believe your neighbor is going to do you in, you’re going to put up your fences. You’re going to arm yourself. You’re going to try to keep that neighbor under control. And that’s the problem we have with the US and Iran is that the US believed that Iran is up to no good. And Iran hasn’t proven that they’re up to good.

So they’ve convinced at least the majority of the world that they’re up to no good according to the surveys, the polls that we’ve done. And so we have to protect ourselves as you would. And sometimes a good defense is a good offense, and that’s kind of where we were in the last couple of months. There’s no need of destroying Iran. Iran is a good country, good people, but we need to set the red line as you would, or set the stage for continued relations where we don’t look upon Iran as a bad neighbor. And so the Iranians are very proud, very proud people, and they don’t want to look at that as being put down, squashed as you would. And I think the administration’s trying to do that. There’s a lot of political implications associated with the relationship between the Middle East and the rest of the free world, which revolves around oil.

20% of all oil flows through the Strait of Hormuz. That has to be opened back up. It’s affecting oil prices. You can see what’s happening right now is by the United States opening up the Strait of Hormuz that oil prices are coming down. And that’s necessary for the administration currently to not let it harm the midterm elections. That oil price thing has been used by the opposition party to castigate the current administration and their party as being inflationary and as causing a lot of problems with the poorer families because of the cost of fuel and fertilizer and other things that are associated with the opening up of the Strait of Hormuz.

So I’d like to see the administration work out a good deal with the Iranians and the Middle East so that we can have more peace as you would, less war or less battling and contention. So that’s what I would like to see. And if we give the current administration a little bit of breathing room, I think that they’ll pull that off. They have a political motivation to cease that to conflict because it will help them during the midterm if they can get the oil prices back down because oil prices affect everything. And so I think we all understand that. I would like to see a more peaceful resolution with the Iranians, and I’d like not to have to see that country destroyed just to make them listen as you would.

Rob Artigo:

Yeah, we’ll close it out with this question. On the opportunity side, because we’re thinking about the business environment in the United States, talking to our listeners who many are entrepreneurs, they’re founders of their own business, or they’re running their own businesses or thinking about running a business. How can smart leaders turn this whiplash environment? As you say, that the oil prices going up and down and various key indicators going up and down rapidly and with large moves. How do they turn this whiplash into an advantage? I know you did that with Micrel on many downturn opportunities.

Ray Zinn:

Well, downturns bring upturns because the worse and more severe the downturn, the harder we work to reverse that to give it an upturn. So I see currently in the market, a lot of these tech stocks are getting a little overpriced. So I say watch out, be careful because with inflation up a little bit and these stock prices are pretty high, I think we need to take a little bit of a pause here, even though we do expect there to be good growth in US. In fact, the growth that we’re seeing is about twice what I had forecasted for 2026, and the stock market’s reflecting that.

So if you’re not in the stock market, you’re not doing very well. If you are in the stock market, you’re going to do quite well. So again, it’s a matter of timing. I think we’re peaking a little bit on the stock. And so I’m not saying you want to vacate the market, but you may want to relax a little bit and realize that the trees don’t grow all the way to the sky, and so we’re not going to se this kind of growth continue for the next year and a half. So cautionary effort to just watch out. I mean, we are peaking. We’re growing a little faster than what seems to be legitimate. And let’s just be on the cautious side over the next six to nine months.

Rob Artigo:

Yeah, Ray, your advice is always grounded and insightful in this area. And if you predicted the dot-com bust, I’m hearing that you’re not saying watch for a bust, but you might be saying watch for a correction and be aware of that. And maybe now is the time to take a little bit of the profits and set it aside and get ready for kind of a dip. I think that’s what I’m hearing. Is that pretty much correct?

Ray Zinn:

Right. Right. Again, I’m not forecasting a dot-com. It can happen again. We could get a dot-com implosion if we’re not watching, if we’re not being careful. Don’t spend the money just because you have it. Put away, as they say, sock some money away, and just be aware that I think things are peaking and that we need to be aware that we could see a little bit of a pullback over the next six to nine months.

Rob Artigo:

Okay, Ray, I want to tell the listeners they can check out your books. The latest one is The Zen of Zinn Daily. And don’t forget Tough Things First and the Essential Leader for more on building these skills that Ray talks about here on this podcast week in and week out. Visit toughthingsfirst.com for episodes of podcasts, more of those blogs. And the Zinn Starter Mentoring Program is discussed there and you can learn more about that as well. If you’re on a college campus or you’re running a college, this is something to look into and see if you can implement it there in your college as well. Subscribe and share your thoughts on today’s topic. And remember, do the tough things first, right, Ray?

Ray Zinn:

Absolutely. You can’t hurt doing the tough things first.

Every founder dreams big. But there’s a razor-thin line between ambition that builds empires and optimism that quietly destroys them. In this Tough Things First podcast, Ray Zinn explores the subtle but critical difference between an ambitious founder and an overly optimistic one.

Rob Artigo: Ray, today we’re exploring a subtle but critical distinction. What’s the difference between an ambitious founder and an overly optimistic one? This is something entrepreneurs really need right now. So let’s define the terms. What does healthy ambition look like in a founder?

Ray Zinn: The drive, the passion, that courage that you need to be a successful entrepreneur. That’s what being ambitious is.

Rob Artigo: So what separates that from being overly optimistic?

Ray Zinn: Okay. So optimism is good, meaning you’re looking at the bright side rather than, as they say, you’re looking at the green as opposed to the brown, and so you want to be an optimistic individual. Overly optimistic means that you’re not going to see the forest for the trees. You’re going to only see the good. You’re never going to see what’s around the corner. You need that periscope. Having a periscope is good. Overly optimistic without a periscope is bad. So for those that don’t know what a periscope is, it allows you to see while you’re still underwater, and so that’s a good analogy by the way, because when your company’s underwater, you still got to be able to see, and you got to be able to see what’s around you. Overly optimistic means you don’t have a periscope.

Rob Artigo: I think of Micrell, you probably had a lot of experiences there, but where this came into play, how does this show up in leadership style and team culture? How did it show up in Micrell, and how did that differ from other places that you had to do business with and had personal observations with in different companies?

Ray Zinn: Well, so when I started Micrell, of course I was very ambitious and was passionate about what I was doing and verified as you would, trust but verified, made sure that I was able to see the forest for the trees. I was always looking for obstacles that I had to overcome. I had my periscope up, and that’s being realistically optimistic as opposed to being unrealistically optimistic. When they say, don’t confuse me with the… My mind’s made up, don’t confuse me with the facts, is a problem with an overly ambitious, I mean overly optimistic entrepreneur, because if you say, “Don’t confuse me with the facts,” then you’re really not being a realistic entrepreneur. Being a good entrepreneur means that you are passionate, you drive, you got the enthusiasm to stay at the helm as you would, because in rough seas, you need to have somebody at the helm that knows how to quarter the seas.

So you don’t want to be overly optimistic such that you’re saying, “Well, when I climb this wave, I know I’ll be okay on the other side.” You want to quarter the wave. You don’t want to hit the wave head on, and so that’s the analogy of being optimistic, but not overly optimistic.

Rob Artigo: You have a simple checklist that does walk along those same lines you were just describing. Our listeners are founders of businesses, small and large. There are people who are in college who are looking at the possibility of opening their own businesses, doing their startups, getting their ideas out there, and this is your list of the practical ways to stay ambitious without sliding into over optimism. So this is a list of three points. The first one, if you’re out there and you’re listening and you grab a pen, you can write these down. The first one is, are my goals based on real market data and consumer input or just my own excitement? You can be fooled into thinking that you’re all that in a bag of chips, and in reality, your idea is not that great.

Ray Zinn: Well, that was my comment earlier about, “Don’t confuse me with the facts.” In other words, if you’re not willing to face the facts, then you’re going to be violating that first principle. Look at the numbers, look at the facts, and don’t be fooled by your lack of reasoning, as you would. Say my mind’s made up. Don’t have your mind made up. Look at the numbers, look at the facts. Work with the numbers and the facts. Don’t ignore them.

Rob Artigo: Yeah, definitely don’t ignore them. Number two is, do I have clear milestones and exit ramps if things don’t go as planned? That’s what you were just talking about there, is if you’re overly pleased with yourself, you’re not open-minded enough to plan for change or pivoting when you have to.

Ray Zinn: Well, I’m a pilot and I fly my plane, and there’s that term we use, is to make sure that we have enough fuel to land and then go to an alternate airport, and when we file our IFR flight plan, instrument flight rules, by FAA rules, we have to have enough fuel to reach our destination and an additional amount to go 45 minutes to an alternate airport, because weather changes quickly in business, and so the environment changes quickly, and so you need to have enough fuel, enough money, enough resources to go to an alternate pivot airport and land safely. So that’s the analogy I use for that second principle is have enough fuel money as you would to go to an alternate airport or an alternate avenue, a resource.

Rob Artigo: Well, number three depends on a crew. Of course, you were just talking about flying and you have people there with you who not only take care of the plane in the air, but on the ground, and the question is here in number three, am I surrounding myself with people who will tell me the truth and not just cheer me on? In other words, “Hey Ray, I’m glad you’re flying. Go out there and do this,” and then they neglect to tell you you only have 35 minutes of fuel instead of 45.

Ray Zinn: Yeah. You’re not the only one that’s going to be checking the airplane. I mean, you have it in service to make sure that everything is working properly. You got to trust the company, the mechanics that are working on the plane, and then also your people are fueling your plane. You got to make sure that they’re fueling it with the right kind of fuel and not the wrong kind of fuel, and that those who’ve planned your flight are giving you the right information about your flight en route as well as your landing destination and your alternate airport you want to go to. So having the right people around you is key to landing safely or flying safely.

Rob Artigo: Ray, I appreciate the advice, and it’s a pleasure to talk to you once again.

Listeners, Ray’s book, Tough Things First, is out there, as well as The Essential Leader. They’re full of practical advice and insights just like this. Pick up a copy, and check out the other titles as well, the Zen of Zen series. Ray’s latest book as well, Zen of Zen Daily, 366 total, because of leap year day, readings that you can do every day and learn something from it, and then put them into action every day and make yourself a better leader, better coworker, better employer or employee, whichever the case may be.

Go to toughthingsfirst.com for more episodes, the blogs, and the Zen Starter mentoring program is explained there as well.

Well, have you seen the difference between ambition and over-optimism in your own journey? Well, then share your comments at toughthingsfirst.com, and remember, do the tough things first, right, Ray?

Ray Zinn: Exactly.

Ray Zinn is no gambler. In business, his trump card is knowledge. In this Tough Things First podcast, we explore why smart persistence is educated decision making.

Rob Artigo: Well, today it’s really about smart persistence, knowing when to double down and when to just walk away gracefully. This is one of the toughest calls any leader can make. So let’s start with double down side. How do you know when to just keep on pushing when you’re facing challenges?

Ray Zinn: Well, look at the direction that things are headed. When things are going well, double down. When things are not going so well, back off. We talked about that in earlier podcast about the stock market. When the stock market looks like it’s rolling good, double down. And that’s what I’ve been doing, is I’ve been doubling down on the market for the last year and a half and I’ve been just plowing my resources from bonds into the equity market and it’s paid off. But now I see things kind of peaking and I’m a little concerned.

Ray Zinn Cont:And so now I’m pulling a little bit back off the table and moving more back into fixed assets and less into equities because again, I see things are kind of peaking. So how do you know when to back down and when to press forward? Is look where things are headed. I mean, we do that when we drive a car. When we see a flashing yellow light or yellow light comes on, we slow down. When we see the green light comes on, we press forward. When we see the red light comes on, we stop. Be aware of the direction or dynamics of business and the market. Know when to hold them and when to fold them. I think there’s a song about that, Rob.

Rob Artigo: The gambler.

Ray Zinn: Yeah. Know when to hold them and know when to fold them.

Rob Artigo: Yeah.

Ray Zinn: This goes right along with our topic today. You got to know when to hold and when to fold.

Rob Artigo: How do you develop that judgment? Think of yourself and of course you know from your lifetime of experience in business. How do leaders in business or entrepreneurs develop the judgment to make a call like that? I mean, sometimes the amber or yellow light looks a little orange or it looks a little more, I don’t know, something else.

Ray Zinn: Chartreuse.

Rob Artigo: Like rainbow or something. Yeah, Chartreuse. And then how do you develop that to make that judgment call? It feels like the tough things first. I mean, doing the tough things first.

Ray Zinn: My pilot loves Bridge. I mean, he’s a Bridge player. For those of you who’ve ever played the game of Bridge. And it’s a very strategic game. It’s like running a company. It’s a card game. I don’t know if ands or what’s about it, but you have a partner and you play against the other partner, their team. Usually there’s two teams, you and your partner and them and their partner. You got to be watching how they’re playing and how they’re calling their suits and their Trumps and whatever.

And you just got to be aware. I think the reason that most companies fail is because they’re not being aware. They’re not realizing what the other side’s doing or what’s happening in the marketplace. So running a company is very strategic like playing Bridge. It’s very strategic and you have to pay attention. You got to know when to hold them and when to fold them.

When I ran Micrel for 37 years, I had eight downturns and so I had to know when to hold them and when to fold them. And I did that and we were very successful. I mean, not that the downturn didn’t hurt. It hurt terrifically, but we were ready for it. We were prepared. The being strategic like in playing Bridge is very important in running a company. You got to be aware of where the market’s headed. Double up when it’s going well and double down when it’s going bad. And then just be like the song about playing poker, I guess it is, know when to hold them and know when to fold them.

Rob Artigo: Yeah. And I think that when you say fold them in a practical business sense, we’re talking about pivoting mostly. Because if you want to turn a walkaway moment into an opportunity, you don’t just walk away into oblivion, you walk and you turn in a direction that’s going to be helpful. So that’s a pivot. Right?

Ray Zinn: Well, I like playing basketball. I mean, there’s a lot of pivoting in basketball and there’s a lot of pivoting in Bridge and other card games. You have to be willing to pivot, change, restructure, modify, reengage. If you stay on the same suit or the same Trump as you would, you’re going to lose. You got to know when to hold them and when to fold in there, Rob.

Rob Artigo: Well, Ray, for our listeners, entrepreneurs, executives, and even people managing careers or big projects, is there a practical framework they can use for making decisions like that?

Ray Zinn: Read the Tough Things First. That book covers that. I mean, that book is it in spades. I cover a lot of stories, a lot of things that I had to do to run Micrel successfully. Micrel, we ran 37 years with only one year where we lost money. So 36 out of 37 years, we were profitable. That is a record. There’s no other company that I’m aware of that had that kind of a success record of only one loss in 37 years. So if you’re an athlete and you’ve got a track record of winning 36 out of 37 times, you’re a dog gone good athlete.

Rob Artigo: And you were a dog gone good business athlete so to speak. So…

Ray Zinn: Thank you.

Rob Artigo: Thank you for another insightful conversation, Ray. Listeners can pick up your book. The latest one is Zen of Zinn Daily and of course the Essential Leader, and Ray was just talking about Tough Things First. This is where you can find great stories that are, I guess you can call them specific Micrel stories where smart persistence and at a good decision to pivot made a big difference. So-

Ray Zinn: Absolutely.

Rob Artigo: … don’t waste that knowledge. Get in there and do the Tough Things First was to pick up a book and read. A lot of people don’t do that anymore, but you should. So visit toughthingsfirst.com. More episodes are there, blogs and information on the ZinnStarter mentoring program. Also, drop your thoughts in the comments. What’s a time you had to decide whether to double down or walk away? You can drop those in the comments. Just tell us what you’re thinking and we’ll bring them up on a future podcast because we’d like to know and want to learn from you. Remember, do the tough things first. Right, Ray?

Ray Zinn: And you know-

Rob Artigo: Oh.

Ray Zinn: … the book about Tough Things First is know when to hold them and when to fold them. It covers that. It covers how I was able to run Micrel for 37 years and 36 of those profitably.

Rob Artigo: Thanks, Ray.

Ray Zinn: Thank you, Rob.

Ray Zinn: Hello, Rob. Good to be with you.

Rob Artigo: Today we’re talking a little bit about something other than business, although it relates to business in many ways. It’s deeper and more troubling if you think about it. Why is there so much hatred in the world right now? Is it simply human nature, or is there more to it? And what can leaders do about it? So let’s start there. Is hatred part of human nature?

Ray Zinn: Well, it depends upon which side of the fence you’re on. So hatred comes from being selfish. And so I think that selfishness, by some degree, is human nature. I mean, when a baby is born and they get it to cry. In other words, they spank its bottom or whatever they do to get… Because it makes them breathe more deeply. When a baby’s hungry, it cries, and it’s very irritating. You could say from that standpoint, crying is a part of hatred, as you would, because we’re expressing our dislike or our need for something.

Ray Zinn Cont: So again, hatred is really built around the characteristic of being selfish. And so you could say that selfishness is part of our nature. We look out for ourselves, and that’s the problem of focusing on ourselves rather than focusing outward. And so hatred revolves around, you’re upsetting me. You’re doing things that I don’t want you to do because it’s affecting me, and I’m more important than you. And that’s the problem with hatred is it’s very egocentric, very self-centered, and it revolves around your needs rather than the needs of other people. So when you show you’re more interested in them than you are in yourself, that’s looking outward. It’s when you think that you’re more important than someone else, that’s looking inward.

And so the problem that we’re facing in the world today is there’s a perceived difference in our feelings about each other, depending upon what political party you belong to. We have to quit throwing stones. As they say, people who live in glass houses shouldn’t throw stones. And we all have glass houses. We all have pitfalls and areas that we should improve and we should be aware that we’re not the only ones with issues or concerns. And we got to quit throwing stones, period. If we stop throwing stones, then nobody’s going to get their house broken.

So that’s the first thing. Quit all this bashing. I know that they talk about athletics, they talk about bashing the other team. I don’t know why that’s a feeling of making that team stronger or better or whatever, but it’s really not necessary. The athletic events that I’m most interested in are the ones that they don’t bash. Gymnastics is one that tends to not have a lot of bashing. Games like, oh, let’s see, trying to think of some others where they’re not doing a lot of… Race cars. There’s not very much bashing there.

It seems to be the ones where there’s one-on-one conflict, the battle. In gymnastics, you’re not really battling, you’re just performing. But in tennis, there’s a battle. Soccer, there’s a battle. Football, there’s a battle. Baseball, there’s a battle. Basketball, there’s a battle. So the ones that don’t seem to be you’re performing… Golf is another one that’s less contentious. And so you’re not really battling, you’re just performing. It’s the athletic events that are where you’re more of a performer than you are a battler tend to have less bashing.

So we have to quit looking at each other as we’re battling. We’re performing. That’s good. So perform. Be a performer. Show your capability by what you’ve done. Not that you’re beating somebody or you’re overtaking someone, but that you’re actually accomplishing something. Whether you’re a book author or a singer, or you’re a dancer, or you’re a good mother or a good father, a good student, that doesn’t require a battle. That just requires performing. So let’s go to being a performer, whether you’re a politician or you’re an athlete. Be a performer. Track and field is another one I should say that that’s more a performance as opposed to a battle. I’m saying the way we overcome hatred or we minimize it is just be a performer. Perform it. Show us your capability by what you’ve accomplished, not how much you can beat up someone else.

Rob Artigo: I think of being accomplished is better than being a conqueror. And I think that’s what I’m hearing from you. What turns that natural tendency in humanity into widespread hatred we see in society, politics, and even work places. What turns that? What’s the turning point? I think that might be what we’re referring to right here is changing your own mindset.

Ray Zinn: Quit throwing stones. Just perform. Just go do your job. As I said, people live in glass houses shouldn’t throw stones. We got to quit throwing rocks at each other.

Rob Artigo: Is there a difference between healthy disagreement and hatred?

Ray Zinn: Yes. I ran a semiconductor company for 37 years. I loved my competitors. I didn’t hate them. They were strong, very arduous competitors, but they didn’t throw stones. At least the ones that I competed against. They just performed. They just showed that they had a better product than I had or I showed I had a better product than they had. But I didn’t hate them at all. Actually, I need a good competitor because that strengthens my products. I become better if my competitors become better. So same thing as a political party. Each party should be better at what they’re doing, and that strengthens each of the parties. Be a performer, not a battler. That’s why I should say.

Rob Artigo: Yeah. For our listeners who are entrepreneurs, executives who are just trying to lead their families through this climate, from what I’m hearing from you, Ray, is start with not throwing stones.

Ray Zinn: Exactly. Quit throwing stones. Stop the rhetoric. Stop the bashing. That doesn’t serve any purpose.

Rob Artigo: Well, Ray, thanks. I know that our listeners, they come in, they tune in here because you have a powerful perspective. Obviously good advice. So grab a copy, listeners, Tough Things First book and also The Essential Leader. Visit toughthingsfirst.com for more episodes, the blogs. ZinnStarter Mentoring Program is delineated there. Talked about, discussed. Drop your thoughts on this topic in the comments. And remember, do the tough things first, right, Ray?

Ray Zinn: Absolutely. Just a real side comment. It made me feel good when my competitors had said, “Micrel’s a great company.” That made me feel better about saying, “And so is Linear Technology,” or Maxim, or my other competitors. I said, “These guys have great products.” And I wasn’t afraid to say something good about my competitor. And so I wasn’t a battler. I was a performer. I congratulated them on their performance. If we look at an athletic event and the performers give each other a hug and congratulate them on their win, to me, that’s the way it should be in a good competitive environment.

Rob Artigo: Being a gracious winner in that sense.

Ray Zinn: Right.

Rob Artigo: Thanks again, Ray.

Ray Zinn: Thank you.

In a world divided by competing visions of prosperity, today on Tough Things First we tackle one of the most consequential debates in human history: Capitalism versus Socialism. Ray Zinn cuts through the ideology, examines real-world outcomes, and explores which system better delivers freedom, innovation, and human flourishing. (Watch Now…)

Rob Artigo: Big topic, Ray, in modern America, capitalism versus socialism. We have a real debate going on. We have the admitted socialist, maybe even a communist as a mayor of New York and other folks coming online as viable political candidates who are socialists who say they’re socialists and they don’t care if there’s a bad connotation to that or bad history related to that. So let’s start with the basics, Ray. In simple terms, what do you see as the core strengths of capitalism?

Ray Zinn: Well, capitalism is more of a nationalistic type economy. Everybody does their thing. Everybody gets paid for the labors, efforts that they put in, including companies. And so our country has always been based on more of a nationalistic, capitalistic society. It’s really more of you get what you pay for or you pay what you get. It has a strong growth potential because of the nature of it. If you can get what you need to get based on your income and your social status, then capitalism is good. And the purpose of capitalism really is to grow. I mean, capitalism is based on growth. And so capitalist societies tend to grow much faster than socialistic societies.

Ray Zinn Cont:  So switching to socialism, socialism is based on social programs, based on giveaway type like food and shelter and health welfare. And so it’s more non-nationalistic. And that’s why you’ll see people who are more socialistic tend to not have borders. In other words, they lack borders. The key here in socialism is that it’s more focused on programs that favor the underdog or people who are down and out as you would because they’re more freebie. You rely heavily on the power of the economy to fund these social programs such as food, shelter, health, and they can refer to these as the basic needs. So as I said, again, they’re more related to no borders.

Now a communist society is a little different because they do have borders. If you look at all the communist countries, they’re more border related because they have to be by their nature because the government basically takes care of everybody. In other words, they run the system. But the problem is that government run programs are never very efficient. Anytime you have giveaways or freebies, they get taken advantage of and a lot more fraud.

If we look at the countries that are more socialistic as you would, there’s a lot more fraud because people take advantage of the freebies as you would or the socialistic type giveaways and they’re easy to take advantage of. Not so much under communism because the communists… Now the upper level of the communist party, the higher levels, they survive well. So I have relatives in Germany that were there under the Russians in East Germany and they said it’s terrible.

I mean, they said they were so happy when West Germany took over East Germany and it became one country. They hated being under the communist rule. And we know that wall, the Berlin Wall and the wall that separated East Germany from West Germany was put up by the communist. So they are very strong on borders and they’re very strong on keeping everybody under their thumb as you would.

Again, they suffered greatly under communism. My relatives did in Germany. I remember visiting them in the late ’80s, early ’90s and they didn’t have all the facilities we have here. They didn’t even have a toilet. I mean, they had a hole that they did their stuff in and their home was very ancient looking. In other words, when I went there, they pumped the water from an outside well and then they carried into the house. I mean, it reminded me so much of a underprivileged country and a third world country as you would. And so they were very happy to be part of Germany as a whole. And there was some adjustment they needed in order to do that because the two systems were totally different. West Germany was capitalistic and East Germany was communistic.

So now back on socialism. Socialism it’s a roadmap to communism and it is very border-centric. I mean socialism is not, but communism is very border-centric. And so socialism, we’re all one people, we’re all one country, we’re all one world. And so the love of country, the love of each other is different under socialism. You can see what Europe or England is going through right now. They’ve got way too much immigration. They actually can’t support that because the immigrants who are flooding the country need all these social services.

Under Biden, of course, the borders were open and a lot of socialism crept in. And so what we’re seeing now in the US is a consequence of all of that immigration that took place and then people saying, “Oh gosh, this is really great because everything is free. Free food, free cellphones, free rent, free health.” But nothing is free. There’s nothing in life worth having is free. And so there is a need for socialism in certain areas. Certain people need help and we should be there to help them. But making the whole country socialistic is dangerous and we’re going to slow our growth.

Our growth will slow down next to nothing. And so we can see that under the current administration, the markets are doing well, the growth is good and our borders are closed. But the people who are for socialism are upset because the socialistic programs in their mind are being minimized because they’re seeing all the growth and all the advantages of the wealthy, the billionaires, as you would, are looked upon as being evil as you would even. So in our country, in the United States of 300 plus million people, there are only 900 billionaires. And so if you’re going to tax 900 people, you’re not going to be able to support socialism on just billionaires.

Those who are promoting socialism are the ones that are more rioting. They’re more unrest as you would and they’re a very fanatical group. I personally am in favor of capitalism and I’ve done well under capitalism. And I don’t see myself doing very well under socialism. I do agree that we will and should have programs to help the underprivileged and that’s the way it should be in any country.

Rob Artigo: Yeah. Let’s wrap it up by discussing the difference between socialism and even communism compared to capitalism. One big difference that comes to mind is opportunity, self-determination versus government determination, if that’s a good way to put it. There’s a term that I always learned about growing up, which was called pulling yourself up by your bootstraps. It seems like you can’t really pick yourself up from nothing and make something out of nothing if you don’t have an opportunity to pull yourself up by your bootstraps and that’s a big dividing line between capitalism versus socialism. Am I right?

Ray Zinn: Right. Countries like China are trying to do a modified communist versus capitalism. They’re trying to modify it, but again, it’s not going to work. I mean, the people in China aren’t doing near as well as those in Taiwan. And of course they see that. It’s kind of a dichotomy. And here you have this little state like Hong Kong was prior to 2000, was doing really well. And then now Taiwan is kind of like Hong Kong in the sense of the word that it wasn’t part of communist China. In the case of Taiwan, it’s not. But we look at Hong Kong. Hong Kong is not doing as well as they did when they were separate, when they were their own little group, as a little country. So we need to be careful. But, again, if you’re more of a nationalistic person rooting for your team as you would, then you want capitalism.

Rob Artigo: Yeah. It’s amazing when you think about the difference between Hong Kong today and Hong Kong in 2000. So that’s one great example. Imagine being in Hong Kong growing up in a capitalistic society, which is separate from mainland China and then waking up one day and finding out that now you’re under a communist regime that has total control over you and everything else. Let’s wrap this up. I want the listeners to check out The Essential Leader and Tough Things First. Those are the books. They’re available everywhere. Visit toughthingsfirst.com for the podcasts, blogs and more. Follow along on social media as well. And listeners, what’s your take on capitalism versus socialism? Drop your comments in the comments there at toughthingsfirst.com and do the tough things first. Thanks, Ray.

Ray Zinn: Thank you, Rob.

This is part two of Ray Zinn’s conversation about balancing tech efficiencies with empathy to keep teams motivated and loyal. Plus, more on why you should embrace change.

Rob Artigo: I’m Rob Artigo. I’m a former radio personality, writer, and entrepreneur in California. This is human-centered leadership in an automated age. This is part two of our discussion. It went on a little long, so we split it up into two. I’m glad to have you back, to listen AI and robotics advancing rapidly in 2026. Many leaders worry about replacing people instead of empowering them. And in our first podcast on this topic, we discussed how to deal with that. Ray, it’s nice to be back to discuss this again. Your company was consistently profitable for 37 years. You put people first, but I think what we’ve been learning in this podcast, part one and now part two, is the fundamental truth that change is the one constant, right?

Ray Zinn: I’m part owner of a small software company, what they call software as a service, SaaS. I was talking with the CEO of the company. He was saying that he’s able now to create his software with one engineer and AI versus 10 engineers before. So he’s reduced his headcount by 10 by using one engineer who is the program manager or developer along with AI. That book, again, Who Moved the Cheese, you got to know when the cheese is moved, you better find a new route. So as I said, I have two grandchildren that are currently looking for work. They just graduated this year and they’re frankly concerned because they got educated in an area which is now being taken over by AI. So in fact, my one granddaughter is a speech therapist, but you can do speech therapy now through AI. So she’s got to find another way now to get a job where AI may have taken over her function.

Rob Artigo: Well, maybe it’s coaching somebody through fewer sessions and using AI for practice.

Ray Zinn: Right. Exactly.

Rob Artigo: And what I found, Ray, we’ve done this here in this podcast. We have perfected it here. It takes fewer people to do… Because of technology, it takes fewer people to do what we do here in this podcast than it used to. I mean, you used to have a producer, a writer and all these different people doing things. We do it. The two of us do it. And that’s basically what it comes down to is it just takes fewer, I think, and tell me if I’m wrong, but basically what AI and technology have done by 2026 in the course of history is it just takes fewer people to do certain jobs. And then somebody has to do maintenance on milking the cows, which you mentioned. Somebody has to do that. So a person’s going to do that, but you don’t need all the people milking the cows and you don’t need the farm hands out there picking up the lettuce or picking grapes. So you just have some people instead of 20.

Ray Zinn: We have to be cognizant of that. I mean, AI will put a lot of people out of work or put a lot of people in the mode of having to find another way of making a living. That’s the way it’s always been. When I was a kid, I worked on a ranch and so I did a lot of ranch work, but then I went to school and I got a degree in engineering and master’s in business and I don’t do any more cattle or any more farming type work except here at the ranch. So things changed for me even as a kid. I used to deliver papers on a bicycle. Now everybody reads the paper online. So the guys that are out there delivering paper, the boys riding their bikes, delivering paper, I have to find another way to make a living. So we’re all going to be facing change.

Change is permanent. It’s going to be with us forever and we have to adapt like the book says Who Moved the Cheese. We got to find out where’s the next hole for the cheese. And so whether you’re a doctor or whether you’re a lawyer or whether you’re school teacher or whatever, you got to learn to adapt. The medical field’s changing dramatically too because of AI. The legal system’s changing dramatically. We need far less paralegals because the AI can read the paralegal information and come up with a report much faster than the paralegal can. So I think almost everyone to some degree is going to be affected by change, whether you’re a stage coach driver or Pony Express rider or whether you’re an engineer driving a train or you’re a pilot flying an airplane. I heard recently that the AFAA is looking at now being able to fly airplanes automatically and will need fewer pilots because AI or the technology is allowing airplanes to fly themselves.

I have an airplane that can almost land itself. So we put it on an autopilot with a program in it and it takes over all the flying. Now I have to operate the radio, but I think even that’s going to get changed. I think ultimately there will be no need to operate the radio because it’ll all be done automatically. We used to get our weather report and what we call the ADIS, the automatic transfer information service, used to get it through a real person. Now it’s all being done automatically by AI. All the weather’s coming in by AI now. We don’t need weather forecasters to the degree we did in the past because that’s all automated. I don’t know. Maybe we’re going to be doing podcast automated now. I think we could. I think we can do AI podcasts. Right, Rob?

Rob Artigo: Oh yeah, sure. I mean, you can get topics from the AI. You can have scripts written by AI. You can do tons of things. And me, when I do my work as a criminal defense investigator, I do use it if I get into a jam on certain paperwork. If I get backed into a corner, I’m not supposed to do much paralegal work because I’m not a paralegal, but sometimes I have to draft something and write it up and AI has helped me figure that out. But that’s where I want to go next is think about the fact that there are people out there who’ve spent their lives the last 20 years building a reputation and a source of information on websites and they pay for their websites. Maybe they do commerce there, they do other things, advice, they do cooking, they do other things. I mean, even exercise or health or fitness, they have those websites.

But if I use AI to search for something instead of going out on the internet in general, I’m not navigating to those websites.

Ray Zinn: Yes, that’s true.

Rob Artigo: AI is skimming that information and delivering it to me and saying, “Here’s the answer.”

Ray Zinn: Exactly.

Rob Artigo: So now the traffic I would imagine on those websites is going down because of the use of AI. AI, I use Elon Musk’s Grok. It will give an explanation of something and then it’ll give you a link to click on the source. So if you wanted to verify it or look at it further, you could do that. But typically you’re getting enough information just by the aggregation of the question you’ve asked and then that aggregation comes from all those websites. So there’s commerce that’s going to go down because of AI.

Ray Zinn: Well, I mean, Rob, this has been going on forever since Adam ate the apple. I mean, this is going on. I mean, this is nothing new and so it just seems like it’s happening faster because AI is making things change quicker. And so anytime we see a rapid change, we get concerned. We have to be aware of that. We have to understand the dynamics of the changing world and adapt. So adapting is the key and we could debate this for another two hours and we wouldn’t really cover anymore.

Rob Artigo: Right. But I guess the idea that you’re trying to convey to people is it’s here to stay. What you have to do is fear not and forge ahead, pivot if you have to and deal with it.

Ray Zinn: And don’t fret about change because if you’re fretting about change, you’re going to be fretting forever.

Rob Artigo: Yeah. And you’ll drive yourself crazy.

Ray Zinn: Right.

Rob Artigo: Listeners, pick up Ray’s books, The Essential Leader in Tough Things First, as well as the Zen of Zinn series. For more practical guidance on these fundamentals, visit toughthingsfirst.com for episodes, blogs, and links to Ray’s social media. So what are your thoughts on leading people in an AI driven world? Share your comments. Remember, do the tough things first.

Trust and Value in People. As AI and automation reshape roles, is investing in people—through servant leadership and culture—still the key to the ultimate competitive edge? In this two part Tough Things First podcast, Ray Zinn offers guidance on balancing tech efficiencies with recognition and development to keep teams motivated and loyal.

Rob Artigo: I just saw a story recently where a company was using AI, and I want to say that it’s related to Facebook, but they were using AI as a help mechanism online. So, if you went to the help desk, you would start by talking to the virtual assistant and the virtual assistant helped people navigate accessing their accounts. And the virtual assistant helped people hack accounts, because it wasn’t able to understand that the person is manipulating the AI. So, certainly right now, we still need human beings dealing with these things and having oversight over what AI or tech is doing.

You built Micrel Semiconductor into a consistently profitable company over 37 years by putting people first. Obviously, your technology that you’re producing at Micrel, was advancing, improving the world, creating opportunities, creating jobs, doing all these things because it was a technologically advanced product. It continued to advance what we were doing in business and in society. How do leaders stay human centered when technology is moving fast, even when you’re the one producing the technology that’s moving fast?

Ray Zinn: We look at this AI era as being the only time that we’ve had advancement and that’s just not true.

Rob Artigo: Yeah, true.

Ray Zinn: I remember, in Adam Smith’s book, Wealth of Nations, he talked about the division of labor and that’s exactly what we’re talking about today in this podcast. Pick up that book. Pick up Adam Smith, that was written back in the 1700s and it talks about division of labor, specialization as you would. The big concern back in Adam Smith’s time, which is back in the 1700s, had to do with the railroad. The railroad was expanding rapidly. I mean, I think many of our listeners will know or remember the day of Stagecoach and Pony Express and so forth. I mean, look at how we delivered mail and packages back in the early 1800s or even the 1700s. We did it by what we call Pony Express. The Pony Express rider would have these big satchels on the back of a saddle and he would carry as many packages as it would fit in those satchels in the back.

And then he would race like crazy. He would gallop for a few hours and then he’d go to a relay station and he’d hop off and jump on another horse and take off and do it again, or they’d change riders and, this relay, and that’s the way that we got mail from one point A to point B, was through these Pony Express riders. It’s almost like having a faster internet. With the railroad coming on board and laying track across the United States and moving mail and other packages with the train, putting Pony Express riders out of work.

Rob Artigo: And the telegraph.

Ray Zinn: And the telegraph put them out of work. Yeah, exactly. That’s another one. The telegraph also made it quicker because that was the internet back in the day of the Pony Express rider, taking him out of work. And so, they were the, Pony Express rider here the Amazons of those days, they moved lots of product. Brink’s was another one, a company that started up by moving products like Amazon does or like UPS or FedEx or whatever. It was not too long ago that the United States Postal Service only delivered mail. They didn’t deliver packages, but now they’re delivering packages like there’s no tomorrow. And that’s changed the way that the mail services are having to operate. So, we are always under change. If you were making stage coaches or buggy whips or you were raising horses for the Pony Express or for the stagecoaches, your business went down as they improved the mass carrying of packages and mail.

And same thing with the farmers. I mean, we used to plant all the crops by hand by putting seeds in the ground by physically pushing them into the ground. If you have a little garden in your backyard, that’s how you hand plant them. But these big farms now, it’s all automated, all automated. So, there’s a lot of farm workers were put out of business when we automated farming. Same thing with milking a cow. Nobody really commercially milks cows by hand. It’s all super automated. I mean, if you looked at the way we produce our produce now, it’s all completely automated. Whether you’re picking fruit or whether you’re picking strawberries, it’s all done by machines. So, if you were a handpicker, you were out of business, with one of those big machines came in and did it for you for the landowner.

So, we’re always going to be undergoing change. The personal computer changed our lives dramatically, where we used to be relying on these big mainframe computers. Now, we just do this all by hand. Back when I was a kid, Dick Tracy had this little smartwatch on his hand that had this little antenna that went up his arm and he had this smart communication device and we kind of laughed at it because we didn’t have anything like that. As a kid, we didn’t have that smartwatch or smart radio like Dick Tracy had. But now we have as much computing power on our wrists as we have on a mainframe back when I was a kid.

Rob Artigo: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And then Maxwell Smart had a phone in his shoe.

Ray Zinn: That’s right. And now we don’t put our phone in our shoe, we put it in our pocket.

Rob Artigo: Or it’s like you said, it has an interface that where some watch, and mine doesn’t, I have a Garmin and so I can’t talk through my watch. But some of them, you can answer your phone through your watch and talk to people through your watch, so you don’t even need… Your phone can be on a nightstand 30 feet away or an end table or something, and you could be talking on your phone through your watch. So, there’s no question about it. There have been advances in technology. So, I wonder, when we do this, when we advance, many leaders feel like, Oh, I don’t want to fall behind, so I got to automate aggressively. So, how do you balance this efficiency with the human side of it, humanity?

Ray Zinn: Well, I got two grandchildren that are looking for work right now. They graduated from college and they’re really worried because AI has taken away some of the jobs that they were looking… These kids started like four or five years ago as a freshman and a little before AI, as you would. So, they just took regular courses for a regular job and by the time they graduated, they found out that, oh, the degree that I just got is now being substituted by AI.

Rob Artigo: Listeners, pick up Ray’s books, The Essential Leader and Tough Things First, as well as the Zen of Zinn series. For more practical guidance on these fundamentals, visit toughthingsfirst.com, for episodes, blogs, and links to Ray’s social media. So, what are your thoughts on leading people in an AI driven world? Share your comments. Remember, do the tough things first.