Unconditioning Love

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Two cousins. One church. Two very different journeys out.

My guest this week is my cousin Hunter. We grew up in the same church that doesn't have a name, the 2x2s (also known as "the friends and workers"), and we've had a deep connection since we were kids talking on the phone for hours. Hunter grew up in Clayton, North Carolina, right outside Raleigh. He was homeschooled, raised in a family-centered home with no TV, and lived what he calls a classic Southern, conservative, "a little bit sheltered" childhood.

College at UNC Chapel Hill opened up his world. Little by little, conversations with friends, an anthropology class and simply being around people who saw life differently began to loosen a worldview that had once been the only one he knew. Then one Wednesday night at Bible study, listening to the prayers, he had a quiet moment of clarity: "What are we doing? This isn't serving me."

In this conversation, Hunter shares how leaving felt "like taking off a jacket." It wasn't instant, but once it no longer fit, he set it down and didn't carry it with him. We talk about how differently the same church can shape two people, even within one family, and how his relationship with his parents has grown stronger over time.

I share parts of my own story too: being told by workers again and again that I would "go in the work," the prayer I had with God at seven years old, singing at funerals from the age of 11, and the moment, shortly before I left, when I realized I had reached the ceiling of my growth inside that system.

We close with a question that sits at the heart of this podcast: can we really love without conditions? Hunter gently challenges me on it, and we explore what unconditional love looks like as a parent, why judgment gets in the way, and why sometimes loving someone means walking away.

In this episode we talk about:

• Growing up homeschooled in the 2x2s in the American South
• How college, friendships and new ideas slowly shifted Hunter's worldview
• The Wednesday night Bible study moment that changed everything for him
• Why the same church can look so different from family to family
• Being raised to "go in the work" and hearing God say no
• Singing at funerals as a child, and growing up in an energy focused on death instead of life
• Whether the 2x2s are a cult or a high-control religion
• Leaving, and how relationships with parents can heal over time
• How high-control systems leave no room for doubt or questioning
• Leaving the past as a story you can hold, instead of a story you live in
• The unexpected gifts of a high-control upbringing, like speaking and singing in public
• What unconditional love means to us as cousins, as parents and as human beings

Timestamps

• 00:00 Welcome, Hunter
• 00:32 Growing up in Clayton, North Carolina: homeschooling, no TV and a sheltered Southern childhood
• 02:47 Hunter's relationship with God as a child
• 05:15 College changes everything, slowly
• 07:42 The Wednesday night Bible study moment
• 09:20 Witnessing what isn't working, and why asking "How are you with God?" is so intimate
• 12:43 How the church looked different in each of our families
• 14:17 Being raised to "go in the work"
• 16:12 A prayer at seven years old: "No, Lydia, you're not meant to be a worker"
• 20:28 Cult or high-control religion?
• 22:33 Singing at funerals, and living in an energy of death
• 23:44 Friendships outside the church, and life after the shift
• 26:42 Homeschooling then and now
• 28:42 Leaving and family: how relationships grew over time
• 31:16 "Every single time it's on the parents"
• 34:22 Every child comes out different
• 35:19 "We taught you to think for yourself"
• 37:58 The unexpected gifts: singing, testimonies and being well-spoken
• 38:34 Your past as a story you can hold
• 40:36 Siblings, doubt, and fear of hell
• 42:11 "Like taking off a jacket"
• 43:13 For those still in it: this is not who you are
• 44:01 Reaching the ceiling of my growth, and being called out
• 46:34 Parenting from unconditional love
• 48:11 Hunter's question: do you really love without conditions?
• 52:16 Hunter's biggest deal breaker with Christianity
• 54:39 What is unconditional love?

If this episode spoke to you, share it with someone who grew up in a high-control religion, or with a family member who walked a different path out than you did. And if you'd like support on your journey of coming back home to yourself, you can find me at lydiakeeney.com.

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On the morning of her birthday in 2017, Em got a phone call saying her dad was unwell. She flew from Australia to Germany as fast as she could, but by the time she arrived after a 36-hour journey, he had already passed. She had asked him to wait for her. He didn't.

A few days later, sitting alone in his bedroom, Em heard a single chime from the huge Balinese wind chime hanging in the corner. Then the whole thing rang out, as if someone had run a finger all the way around it. There was no draft and no explanation. Instead of fear, a deep peace came over her, and with it the first softening of the grief and anger she had been carrying.

That moment cracked her life open. For years she had explained away what she called "the weird stuff that happens to me." After her dad's passing, she went through a deep spiritual awakening, came out of what she calls the spiritual closet, and eventually left her beauty business to follow what she now calls the breadcrumbs from spirit. Today she is a psychic medium and teacher who sees mediumship as a healing modality, a space for closure, unsaid words and reconciliation, and who has healed her own relationship with her dad since his passing.

In this conversation, we talk about the shedding of people that can happen when you step into who you really are, how Em learned to switch "on" and "off" so she could still do the school run and make dinner, and why she believes every one of us is already a medium. She shares simple ways to start noticing signs from your loved ones, how to tell the difference between a roadblock that redirects you and an inconvenience that comes with doing something new, and the five-minute practice she uses to come back to her own inner guidance.

Connect with Em Stawicki's work

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Phoenix chose her name for what the phoenix represents: rebirth and transformation. In this conversation she shares her journey through three versions of herself: growing up in religion, stepping into a “high vibe” spirituality that turned out to be spiritual bypassing, and the season she’s in now, learning to slow down, ground, and truly live from the heart.

We talk about why “just up your vibe” isn’t love, how leaving religion taught her to take ownership instead of blaming the devil (or waiting on God), and why she’d rather manifest an open heart than material things. We also explore the difference between forgiveness and release, forgiving yourself for what you didn’t know, Ho’oponopono, and giving from wholeness instead of ego.

Connect with Phoenix on FB: https://www.facebook.com/p/Savvy-Phoenix-61594329933730/

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When a brown recluse spider bite landed Teal in the hospital for weeks, everything else came apart with it: her job, her friendships, her sense of autonomy, even her hair. She calls it the darkest period of her life, and the most transformative one.

In this episode, Teal shares how she learned what unconditional love is from her mom, her best friend, and her husband. She talks about the night a meditation told her “your soulmate is in Paraguay,” and how a pots-and-pans band in third grade connects to the creativity she’s reclaiming now. We talk about outgrowing people, the dark night of the soul, and finding hope again when you’ve lost it.

If you’re in it right now, on the couch and finding your way out, this one is for you.

In this episode:

• [00:32] Growing up in Kansas, a family car accident at nine months old, and a chaotic but happy childhood
• [04:29] What love meant as a child, and the people who showed Teal unconditional love
• [07:39] “Your soulmate is in Paraguay”: the meditation that changed the direction of her life
• [10:42] Who she had to leave behind, and what happens when we won’t end what we’ve outgrown
• [12:58] The spider bite, the wedding, and doing all the hard things at once
• [14:22] The dark night of the soul, and why every loss had a purpose
• [18:20] What Teal would say to the version of herself in the darkest moment
• [19:46] How marriage became her biggest mirror
• [23:28] What the hardest seasons gave her: hope, creativity, and gratitude
• [26:07] Co-creation, collaboration, and being a lifelong learner
• [30:31] For anyone in the dark right now: visualization, tiny steps, and keeping hope
• [34:09] Choosing to love yourself in it, not once you’re out of it
• [41:07] What unconditional love means to Teal

About Teal
Teal lives in Kansas with her Paraguayan husband and their cats. She studied psychology with a Spanish minor and spent a year living in Paraguay at 19. She’s a lifelong creative who is rediscovering herself through crochet, painting, music, and deep conversation.

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What do you do when the place that once kept you safe no longer fits who you are becoming?

Rosemary was born in Connecticut and raised in the 2x2s, the same church I grew up in. She professed at 10 years old, standing up beside her younger sister at a convention. For years, meetings were her safe place: the one space where everything was quiet and she could speak and truly be listened to.

But slowly, she began to feel restricted in what she could share. She noticed the perfectionism, the shame, and the messages about mistrusting the self. She realized she could no longer bring her authentic spiritual thoughts into the room. Within this past year, she made the brave, conscious choice to step away.

This conversation is told from the messy middle, and that is exactly what makes her story so powerful. She is the first guest I've had on the podcast who has very recently left, and sharing while you are still in it takes a whole different level of courage.

In this episode we talk about:

• Growing up in the 2x2s and why meetings felt like a safe place
• Leaving slowly and consciously, rather than in one big moment
• Perfectionism, shame and feeling restricted in what you're allowed to say
• Shifting from a God outside of us to a God within us, in others and in nature
• Why our relationship with ourselves is our relationship with God
• Moving from obligation to free will when it comes to taking time for yourself
• A simple grounding practice for coming out of the head and home to the heart
• Why inner-child work can feel different for those of us raised in high-control religion
• How the body carries our relationships and what it is trying to tell us
• Finding new community after leaving, one step at a time
• What unconditional love means: putting yourself first, and giving and receiving without obligation

Mentioned in this episode:

• Unitarian Universalist congregations (uua.org)

If this episode spoke to you, share it with someone who is standing in their own in-between. And if you'd like support on your journey of coming back home to yourself, you can find me at lydiakeeney.com.

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What if the hardest seasons of your life were part of a game your soul chose to play? And what if you could learn the rules?

This week on Unconditioning Love, Lidi talks with Ketty. Ketty was born in Paris to a family from Guadeloupe and raised by a single mother, who gave her an unusual gift: the freedom to choose her own path. She became a professional dancer and a marketing strategist. She spent ten years running a youth association in one of the toughest areas outside Paris, and later became a life coach and NLP practitioner in the Netherlands.

Then, after COVID, came a burnout and a deep depression. She had been trying to please everyone, and it brought her to the edge of wanting to disappear. From there Ketty began six months of going inward. She became a "detective" of her own life. She met the ancestral trauma of slavery she had carried without knowing it. And she discovered that loving herself was what finally let her love other people without conditions.

In this episode:

• How a childhood that felt harsh turned out to be her mother's greatest gift
• The moment she heard: "I didn't do it, you did it to yourself," and how accountability replaced victimhood
• Rumi's "you are not a drop in the ocean, you are the entire ocean in a drop," and what it means to live as the ocean
• Viktor Frankl's space between action and reaction, and how Ketty uses it to meet racism and ignorance with understanding instead of a fight
• Why words are spells, and how what we say shapes the field we live in
• Going back to the child who made the first choice, and thanking them for keeping you alive
• Why falling back is not starting over ("when you fall back, you jump further")
• Spiritual bypassing: why knowing something in your head isn't the same as your body living it
• Ketty's advice for anyone in the dark right now: start with one small thing, like making your bed, and build momentum from there

Chapters:

• 00:00 Welcome, and Ketty's story from Paris
• 02:04 Dance, giving back and ten years with youth
• 03:30 Moving to the Netherlands, burnout and depression
• 08:49 Talking to God and becoming a detective of her own life
• 11:20 Returning to her roots and ancestral trauma
• 13:04 The Game of Life and How to Play It
• 14:45 The ocean in a drop
• 16:49 The space between action and reaction
• 22:00 A childhood dream: "everything is already here"
• 23:25 Mirror-based therapy and her new school
• 34:29 Words as spells
• 40:10 Life as a game we play together
• 48:03 A bridge for anyone who can't believe life could be a game yet
• 52:26 Falling back, and why the nervous system needs time
• 57:08 Spiritual bypassing: connecting mind, body and soul
• 1:02:05 Coaching from lived experience

Resources mentioned:

• The Game of Life and How to Play It by Florence Scovel Shinn
• Conversations with God by Neale Donald Walsch
• Man's Search for Meaning by Viktor Frankl
• Rumi

Connect with Ketty: Instagram Facebook

A note of care: this episode includes talk of depression and suicidal thoughts. If you're struggling, please reach out to someone you trust or a local crisis line. You don't have to walk through it alone. 💛

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In this first video episode of Unconditioning Love, Lydia goes solo — her scheduled guest couldn't make it, so instead she opens up about what it means to be in the messy, uncomfortable middle of transformation.

Using the image of a caterpillar dissolving into goo before it can become a butterfly, Lydia talks about why "stuckness" isn't a life sentence — it's a phase. She shares what's coming up in her six-week coaching container (currently in week three with five students), reflects on her own journey out of church life and into a therapist who finally "spoke her language," and offers real, accessible tools — like EFT tapping and meditation — for staying grounded while everything familiar dissolves around you.

If you've left a system, relationship, or belief that no longer fits and you're standing in the unknown wondering when it'll make sense again — this episode is for you. It won't, yet. And that's okay.

In this episode:

• 0:00 – Going solo & why video, now — Lydia's first video episode, and her intention to keep editing minimal so the conversation stays real and human.
• 0:48 – What "holding space" actually means — The podcast's purpose: unconditional love as a doorway back to your own light, not just surface-level "consciousness."
• 2:44 – Inside the 6-week coaching container — How week one (telling your story in 6–10 minutes) and week two (building your "movie script") help people find their through-line.
• 4:22 – The caterpillar goo metaphor — Why being stuck is temporary, why it looks different for everyone, and why pulling yourself out too soon can do more harm than staying in it.
• 6:14 – Building a new "safe" — What to do when the people and places that used to hold you don't anymore — and why leaving doesn't erase what you gained there.
• 8:33 – Finding a therapist who speaks your language — Lydia's own search for the right support after leaving the church, and a therapist's insight that this shift was inevitable all along.
• 12:20 – Why discomfort ≠ lack of peace — Untangling the belief that peace has to feel comfortable, and why movement — even shaky movement — is the real signal of growth.
• 16:38 – Tools for the goo — EFT tapping, meditation, and how Lydia is using her own move within Argentina as a live practice in tolerating the unknown.

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For most of his life, Aaron knew God as a father figure far off in the sky — watching, judging, keeping score. That's the God you often inherit growing up in the 2x2s (also known as "the Truth," or "the church with no name").

In this episode, Aaron and I trace what happened when that image finally cracked open for both of us, and what came through it: God not as a distant patriarch but as energy, everywhere, in everything, in us. We talk through the image that we're each a drop, and God is the ocean, which means we were never separate from it to begin with. We were never waiting to earn our way back in. We were carrying it the whole time.

We also talk about something that doesn't get named enough: what it does to a person to grow up not just believing you're unworthy, but surrounded by an entire community quietly carrying that same belief about themselves. It's not one father figure handing down judgment; it's hundreds of people agreeing on it together, which makes it feel less like a belief and more like just how things are.

From there we go deep — into the things that happened to us that felt senseless and cruel at the time, and what it means to find them happening for us instead. Not spiritual bypassing. Not "everything happens for a reason" as a platitude to swallow the pain faster. Something slower and more honest: meaning that gets made, not handed down.

If you grew up inside a system that told you exactly who God was and exactly how far short you fell of Him, this conversation is for you.

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Episode summary

Kara grew up four generations deep in the 2x2 religious group — and she left. In this conversation, she takes us into what it was like to grow up in an environment where love had to be earned, where God was someone to fear rather than know, and where the words "I love you" were rarely spoken out loud. Kara shares the one bright exception in her memory — her great-aunt and uncle, deeply "in" the institution, whose home was somehow still full of fun, humor, and love — and traces the slow, honest unraveling that began the moment she became a mother.

In this episode

• What it was like growing up believing love was conditional and God was mostly to be feared, and how rare it was to hear "I love you" at home.
• The one exception: her great-aunt and uncle, fully committed to the institution, whose house was somehow full of laughter and warmth 
• Becoming a mom to twin daughters as the pivot point — the moment Kara started counting all the rules her girls would inherit, she couldn't stop thinking about what it would mean for her girls to carry those same rules into school and everyday life.
• The small acts of loosening the reins — starting with how her daughters were allowed to dress outside the community — as her first quiet steps away.
• A gutting moment at a church convention: after one of her daughters lost all her hair during a health crisis, another woman told Kara her daughter "didn't deserve to be at convention with short hair." The place Kara had believed was the safest for her children turned out to be where they were treated as less than.
• Kara never bought into the exclusivity — but for years, she went along with it anyway.
• The pivotal conversation: her daughter showed her a tattoo, and the two of them talked openly about the possibility of leaving the meetings someday — Kara admitting she didn't believe the meetings were the only way. That conversation cracked something open.
• The fear that came with finally deciding she had to step out — not fear of leaving the religion, but fear of telling her husband, and not knowing whether their love was conditional too, or whether it could survive her walking away.
• Where Kara is now: reconnecting with God in her garden and through worship music — a quieter, freer kind of faith than the one she grew up with.

Featured song: "Hope Says"

A closing note

Kara's story doesn't end in anger — it ends in a garden, with worship music playing, and a faith she gets to choose for herself. If any part of her story is your story too, we hope this episode reminds you: love was never supposed to be something you had to earn.

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What if the thing you thought was loyalty was actually control?

In this solo episode of Unconditioning Love, Lidi shares years of consciously healing through one of her deepest limiting beliefs: I am worthy by how much I help people. She traces how that belief showed up as the rescuer — A.K.A. running into the fire to pull people out, whether anyone asked her to or not — and what it cost her to keep living that way.

From there, she opens up the conversation on loyalty, naming it for what it so often really is: love plus control. Because if we're honest, how can any of us truly know what someone else needs? That question becomes the hinge of the episode, as Lidi lays out the difference between the rescuer and leadership — and why leadership, not rescuing, is what actually creates lasting influence.

This is a conversation about letting go of the fire, trusting people with their own path, and finding out what's on the other side of needing to be needed.

In This Episode

• Years of consciously healing through the belief that she needed to save other people, and what finally made it loosen its grip
• Naming the limiting belief underneath it: "I am worthy by how much I help people"
• What the rescuer actually looks like day to day — A.K.A. running into the fire to pull people out
• Reframing loyalty as love + control, and the question that unravels it: how can we really know what someone else needs?
• The difference between the rescuer and leadership mode
• Why leadership means moving forward and stepping boldly into the new, doing what's right regardless of whether everyone follows
• Influence vs. control — why one is sustainable and the other isn't
• What it feels like to stop rescuing and start leading

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