Arthur Zajonc is president of the Mind and Life Institute. He is emeritus professor of physics at Amherst College, where he taught from 1978 to 2012. His books include “Meditation as Contemplative Inquiry: When Knowing Becomes Love” and “The Heart of Higher Education: A Call to Renewal.” Michael McCullough is professor of psychology at the University of Miami, where he directs the Evolution and Human Behavior Laboratory. He’s the author of “Beyond Revenge: The Evolution of the Forgiveness Instinct.” This interview is edited and produced with music and other features in the On Being episode “Arthur Zajonc + Michael McCullough — Mind and Morality: A Dialogue.” Find more at onbeing.org.