Warships Pod

Our guests on this episode of the podcast are Dr Emma Salisbury and Will Freer, who recently wrote a commentary for Warships IFR, headlined ‘How to Achieve a More Lethal Royal Navy’, which was based on their recent report for the Council on Geostrategy.

Here they discuss various topics associated with the report with podcast host Iain Ballantyne. They include the Royal Navy’s role today, what ‘being more lethal’ means in reality and also component parts of ‘more lethality’.

In addition, the ideal size of the Royal Navy’s destroyer and frigate force is touched on and also the importance of fleet size, especially in the drone era. Other aspects of lethality are highlighted, including the Royal Fleet Auxiliary and the importance of an efficient recruitment system for the RN (along with retention of those already in the Naval Service).

Iain asks if, in light of the new UK Government, how likely we are to see a pruning back of current warship orders, for the Type 26 and/or Type 31 frigates.

With the scars of the notorious 2010 Strategic Defence and Security Review (SDSR) still running deep - and the state of UK Defence not getting much better during subsequent reviews - can we be optimistic about the defence review now underway, especially with Lord Robertson at the helm? Or can we kiss hopes for a more lethal Royal Navy goodbye?

To read Emma and Will’s report, called ‘A more lethal Royal Navy: Sharpening Britain’s naval power,’ in full  https://www.geostrategy.org.uk/research/a-more-lethal-royal-navy-sharpening-britains-naval-power/

Follow the Council on Geostrategy on X @ConGeostrategy

Web site: geostrategy.org.uk

To read a concise summary of the same report, written by its authors, get the July 2024  edition of Warships IFR https://warshipsifr.com/issues/

•Dr Emma Salisbury is a fellow at the Council on Geostrategy, specialising in naval matters, defence-industrial policy, and military procurement. She recently completed her PhD with a dissertation focused on the history of the US military-industrial complex. She is also a senior staffer for a Member of Parliament and an assistant editor at War on the Rocks.

Follow her on X @salisbot

•William Freer is a Research Fellow in National Security at the Council on Geostrategy, where his work centres around the Council's 'Strategic Advantage Cell' exploring the key foreign and defence policy issues facing the UK. Before joining the Council he did War Studies at King's College London and went on to work in the world of consulting. He is also an Associate Fellow with the Royal Navy's Strategic Studies Centre.

Follow him on X @william_freer 

•Iain Ballantyne is the founding and current Editor of Warships IFR (first published in 1998) along with its ‘Guide to the Royal Navy’ (since 2003) and ‘Guide to the US Navy’ (since 2018). Iain is also author of the books ‘Hunter Killers’ (Orion) and ‘The Deadly Trade’ (Weidenfeld & Nicolson), both about submarine warfare, plus ‘Arnhem: Ten Days in The Cauldron’ and ‘Bismarck: 24 Hours to Doom’ (published by Canelo). In 2017 Iain was awarded a Fellowship by the British Maritime Foundation, which promotes awareness of the United Kingdom’s dependence on the sea and seafarers. Visit his web site Bismarckbattle.com and follow him on X @IBallantyn

The next (Sept) edition of Warships IFR is published on 16.8.24 in the UK and also deployed globally. Visit the magazine web site http://bit.ly/wifrmag  Also, follow it on X @WarshipsIFR Facebook @WarshipsFR and Warships IFR TV on YouTube @warshipsifrtv3668 For more on various editions of the magazine https://bit.ly/wifri

Back for a second discussion of hot topics are guests Dr Gary Blackburn and Dr David Blagden. With host Iain Ballantyne, they weigh up the prospect of European NATO nations being forced to cope with a bigger burden of defence, if a re-elected President Trump decides to to pull American land forces out of the Continent. It is a policy that is being called ‘Dormant NATO’ by some commentators.

They also consider whether or not the confrontation between missile-firing Houthi rebels and Western navies in the Red Sea is becoming a forgotten contest, with warships that were once committed to protecting sea trade now diverted elsewhere.

With European taxpayers getting a subsidy on their own defence - due to the USA carrying the NATO burden -  it is suggested that (even if America did not pull out or scale back forces in annoyance) its strategic and military rivalry with China - which is building a huge navy - may force Washington to concentrate even more on Asia-Pacific.

In discussing the fact that certain sanctions on Russia, for invading Ukraine in 2022, may be less than waterproof, the subject of whether to directly confront Moscow or stick to a long, hard policy of containment - in ‘Cold War 2’ - is also touched upon by the trio.

•The next (July) edition of Warships IFR is published on June 21 in the UK and globally. Visit the magazine web site http://bit.ly/wifrmag  Also, follow us on X @WarshipsIFR Facebook @WarshipsFR and Warships IFR TV on YouTube @warshipsifrtv3668 For more on various editions of the magazine https://bit.ly/wifri

•Dr Gary Blackburn is an honorary fellow of the Centre for Security Studies at the University of Hull. Gary has taught Security Studies and Military History at the Universities of Leeds and Hull, respectively - and has written for Defence Studies and The Critic, and for the latter about aspects of the UK’s 2021 Integrated Review of Defence and Security. Follow him on X at @gjb70

•Dr David Blagden, is Senior Lecturer in International Security at the Strategy and Security Institute (SSI) and in the Department of Social and Political Sciences at the University of Exeter. Dr Blagden has worked in - and subsequently consulted for - the UK Cabinet Office, provided evidence for a number of Parliamentary Select Committees and HM Government policy reviews. 

He is also a Visiting Fellow of the Royal Navy Strategic Studies Centre, an Associate of the Corbett Centre for Maritime Policy Studies. He has written for outlets including The Guardian, The Spectator and the New Statesman. Follow him on X @blagden_david

•Iain Ballantyne is the founding and current Editor of Warships IFR (first published in 1998) along with its ‘Guide to the Royal Navy’ (since 2003) and ‘Guide to the US Navy’ (since 2018). Iain is also author of the books ‘Hunter Killers’ (Orion) and ‘The Deadly Trade’ (Weidenfeld & Nicolson), both about submarine warfare, plus ‘Arnhem: Ten Days in The Cauldron’ and ‘Bismarck: 24 Hours to Doom’ (published by Canelo). In 2017 Iain was awarded a Maritime Fellowship by the British Maritime Foundation. Visit his web site Bismarckbattle.com and follow him on X @IBallantyn

Our guests for this episode are Dr Gary Blackburn and Dr David Blagden who, with host Iain Ballantyne, discuss a recent proposal by the UK Government to introduce a new National Service scheme for 18-year-olds.

Iain asks if it is just a case of blatant electioneering by the incumbent Sunak administration, which looks set to lose a summer General Election to the Labour Party? Or does the proposal offer some merit amid a recruitment crisis for the Royal Navy?

Likewise, was the other recent big defence announcement by the Conservative government - of taking Defence spending to 2.5 per cent of GDP by 2030 - another gambit to try and win votes?

Also discussed is the state of the Royal Navy, with frigate and destroyer levels now cut to just 15 and yet with warnings of the UK being confronted by a pre-war state. Things may improve in the 2030s, with new warships entering service, but in the meantime it leaves Britain with a small, tired ‘jam tomorrow’ Navy. The effect of sea blindness is also touch upon during the conversation.

And can drones really replace people and warships? Or are they just a seductive illusion?

This is just the first helping of discourse between the trio as in the next episode – out very soon – they tackle the topics of ‘Dormant NATO’ (under a possible second Trump presidency), the wars in the Red and Black seas and whether to directly confront Russia or contain that nuclear state.

•The next (July) edition of Warships IFR is published on June 21 in the UK and globally. Visit the magazine web site http://bit.ly/wifrmag  Also, follow us on X @WarshipsIFR Facebook @WarshipsFR and Warships IFR TV on YouTube @warshipsifrtv3668 For more on various editions of the magazine https://bit.ly/wifri

•Dr Gary Blackburn is an honorary fellow of the Centre for Security Studies at the University of Hull. Gary has taught Security Studies and Military History at the Universities of Leeds and Hull, respectively - and has written for Defence Studies and The Critic, and for the latter about aspects of the UK’s 2021 Integrated Review of Defence and Security. Follow him on X at @gjb70

•Dr David Blagden, is Senior Lecturer in International Security at the Strategy and Security Institute (SSI) and in the Department of Social and Political Sciences at the University of Exeter. Dr Blagden has worked in - and subsequently consulted for - the UK Cabinet Office, provided evidence for a number of Parliamentary Select Committees and HM Government policy reviews. 

He is also a Visiting Fellow of the Royal Navy Strategic Studies Centre, an Associate of the Corbett Centre for Maritime Policy Studies. He has written for outlets including The Guardian, The Spectator and the New Statesman. Follow him on X @blagden_david

•Iain Ballantyne is the founding and current Editor of Warships IFR (first published in 1998) along with its ‘Guide to the Royal Navy’ (since 2003) and ‘Guide to the US Navy’ (since 2018). Iain is also author of the books ‘Hunter Killers’ (Orion) and ‘The Deadly Trade’ (Weidenfeld & Nicolson), both about submarine warfare, plus ‘Arnhem: Ten Days in The Cauldron’ and ‘Bismarck: 24 Hours to Doom’ (published by Canelo). In 2017 Iain was awarded a Fellowship by the British Maritime Foundation, which promotes awareness of the United Kingdom’s dependence on the sea and seafarers. Visit his web site Bismarckbattle.com and follow him on X @IBallantyn

Our guest on this episode is Dr Helen Fry, the author of more than 25 books on the social history of WW2, not least British intelligence activities, spies and the like. 

She is a leading authority on many related topics, including on the ‘secret listeners’ who eavesdropped on what enemy Prisoners of War were discussing. This was in order to gain insights into what was going on in the foe’s war effort and also the mindset of the German opposition. 

In the discussion with podcast host Iain Ballantyne, Dr Fry touches on various naval angles not least the eavesdropping that was used across various sites where German U-boat crews were held.

This includes the use of deliberately casual interrogations to lull the PoWs into a false sense of security for when they discussed things later with their comrades in captivity (not knowing they were being listened to). We also learn how one U-boat sailor in 1940 gave away Enigma machine secrets in a most extraordinary fashion.

The unsung, backroom work of women and others in British naval intelligence, including for the D-Day invasion of June 6, 1944, is included in the fascinating chat.  

Also discussed is the use of female interrogators, and also how German and Austrian refugees from Nazi oppression (due to their Jewish faith) became players in the British intelligence-gathering system and even commandos.

In part two of their discussion, Warships Pod host Iain Ballantyne and guest Doug Littlejohns touch on numerous things, not least nuclear deterrent matters.

As in the previous episode, the situation during the Cold War is compared with today’s, including the problem of Royal Navy submarines that carry the deterrent becoming elderly and badly in need of replacement.

Doug recalls his role in selling the upgrade from Polaris to Trident to the British public in the 1980s, providing insights into how fundamental it was to absolutely guarantee its effectiveness.

Doug suggests that for such systems to be effective ‘weapons for peace’, the UK and NATO need to have a credible conventional deterrent too. Today, so Doug believes, the balance has been lost and this risks making nuclear weapons use more likely.

Mentioned are the massive efforts of Royal Navy submarine crews keeping the now 30 years-old Vanguard Class Trident missile submarines of today running on marathon patrols, some of them lasting an astonishing six months or more.

Among other things covered in this episode, Doug recalls the time when - during 1980s arms reduction talks in Iceland with Soviet leader Mikhail Gorbachev - US President Ronald Reagan appeared to give away the British and French nuclear deterrent without prior permission, as part of bargaining.

Iain and Doug also discuss the situation today with Houthi rebels of Yemen attacking merchant vessels in the Red Sea and Gulf of Aden. Doug reflects on his experiences as the captain of a British frigate tasked with protecting shipping during the Tanker War of the 1980s.

Iain and Doug also consider the recruitment crisis currently facing the Royal Navy and the challenge of encouraging people to join up (and then keeping them in service) today and back in the Cold War.

Finally, they ponder when, if ever, the current mess of UK Defence will be properly sorted out.

For more on the current state of the Royal Navy, and more particularly the UK Submarine Service and its ‘Perfect Storm’, get the April 2024 edition of Warships IFR, which is out NOW! Visit https://bit.ly/w2404c

In the first part of a discussion with Captain Doug Littlejohns, who commanded a nuclear-powered hunter-killer submarine against the Russians during the old Cold War, the primary topic is whether or not we are on the brink of World War Three.

Doug provides insights gained when he played key roles tasking NATO submarines during 1980s spikes in tension and also from working in the corridors of power in the Ministry of Defence in London.

Podcast host Iain Ballantyne also asks whether or not Doug was ever truly scared the face-off between the Soviet Union and the West would turn into a hot war, especially during a surge of Russian Navy submarines into the North Atlantic.

The situation then and now is contrasted with today’s, not least the pronouncements of NATO leaders that war with Putin’s Russia is looming.

The state of the Royal Navy today - with its combat commitments against the Houthis in the Red Sea and having to handle the rising Russian threat elsewhere -  is considered and compared with how the British fleet handled things in the 1980s.

And what of the so-called ‘Special Relationship’ militarily between the UK and USA - is it now seriously out of balance?

Doug Littlejohns commanded the diesel-electric patrol submarine HMS Osiris and the nuclear-powered attack submarine (SSN) HMS Sceptre, plus the anti-submarine warfare frigate HMS London, during the Cold War. Capt Littlejohns faced the forces of the Soviet Union in the Atlantic, Mediterranean and Baltic, and also the Iranians in the Arabian Gulf.

Iain Ballantyne is the founding and current Editor of Warships IFR (first published in 1998) along with its ‘Guide to the Royal Navy’ (since 2003) and ‘Guide to the US Navy’ (since 2018). Iain is also author of the books ‘Hunter Killers’ (Orion) and ‘The Deadly Trade’ (Weidenfeld & Nicolson), both about submarine warfare.

For more details on Iain and his books visit the websites:

http://iainballantyne.com and https://www.bismarckbattle.com/

Follow him on Twitter @IBallantyn

A National Audit Office (NAO) report on ‘The Equipment Plan 2023 - 2033’ in the UK makes for grim reading, revealing a massive so-called ‘black hole’ in the Defence budget, which means there is apparently no money for key projects, including future warships.

In part two of the discussion, host Iain Ballantyne and guests Gary Blackburn and James Bosbotinis weigh up the shortfall in funding. They also ponder what the Labour Government-in-waiting might do to fill in the ‘black hole’ if it succeeds in coming to power in 2024. 

Are we going to see the Navy-led Indo-Pacific ‘tilt’ by the UK axed and would that be a wise move in our interconnected world? Surely there cannot be another British retreat from East of Suez? 

With so many threats looming globally, might a UK government be foolish enough to follow the example of the 2010 Strategic Defence and Security Review and further hollow out the Armed Forces to save money with big item cuts? 

Aside from contemplating the above issues, the discussion addresses whether or not the long-feared New Cold War is here, with the Western liberal democracies confronted by a global existential threat from authoritarian states (not least Russia and Iran).

• For more on Warships IFR magazine http://bit.ly/wifrmag 

Follow it on Twitter @WarshipsIFR and on Facebook @WarshipsIFR

The topics discussed during our podcast episode are often also looked at in the magazine itself. It is available in digital and hard copy formats. To find out where it is available from UK shops bit.ly/searchdist 

Our new Warships IFR 'Guide to the Royal Navy 2024' is out now in the UK in shops bit.ly/searchdist or order direct from Sundial Magazines https://bit.ly/GRN24e 

• Dr Gary Blackburn is an honorary fellow of the Centre for Security Studies at the University of Hull, which seeks to enhance understanding on the nature of war and strategy while also providing guidance on best practice in war and strategy to professional stakeholders.

Gary has taught Security Studies and Military History at the Universities of Leeds and Hull, respectively - and has written for Defence Studies and The Critic, and for the latter about aspects of the UK’s 2021 Integrated Review of Defence and Security. Follow him on Twitter @gjb70

• Dr James Bosbotinis is a freelance defence and international affairs analyst, specialising in maritime strategy and force developments. He is a regular contributor to Warships International Fleet Review, and is the Book Reviews Editor of The Naval Review.

For more information about Dr Bosbotinis visit

https://www.linkedin.com/in/jamesbosbotinis

He is on twitter @JamesBosbotinis

• Iain Ballantyne is the founding and current Editor of Warships IFR (first published in 1998) along with its ‘Guide to the Royal Navy’ (since 2003) and ‘Guide to the US Navy’ (since 2018). Iain is also author of the books ‘Hunter Killers’ (Orion) and ‘The Deadly Trade’ (Weidenfeld & Nicolson), both about submarine warfare, with his most recent books being ‘Bismarck: 24 Hours to Doom’ and ‘Arnhem: Ten Days in The Cauldron’ (Canelo History). 

For more details on Iain and his books visit the web sites 

http://iainballantyne.com and https://www.bismarckbattle.com/

Follow him on Twitter @IBallantyn

This episode begins with a discussion by host Iain Ballantyne and guests Dr Gary Blackburn and Dr James Bosbotinis about the bid by Venezuela to annex a major part of neighboring Guyana.

How might navies attempt to prevent escalation as the communist client state of Russia and Iran considers its next move against an oil-rich Commonwealth nation? How the Venezuelan Navy stacks up against Guyana’s forces is part of the discussion.

Then there is the Red Sea situation where the Houthi faction in Yemen is letting fly with Iranian-supplied drones and missiles against merchant ships and warships in international waters. 

Do the Houthis have the capacity in weaponry and also the capability to cause serious damage and disruption?

Gary and James provide their perspectives on the above issues and more including the broader canvas of the Iranian-led resistance to Western involvement in the Middle East.

The historical context of today’s events is also considered, with reference to the Tanker War of the 1980s and the importance of Red Sea trade to the global economy.

• For more on Warships IFR magazine http://bit.ly/wifrmag 

Follow it on Twitter @WarshipsIFR and Facebook @WarshipsIFR

• Dr Gary Blackburn is an honorary fellow of the Centre for Security Studies at the University of Hull, which seeks to enhance understanding on the nature of war and strategy while also providing guidance on best practice in war and strategy to professional stakeholders. 

Gary has taught Security Studies and Military History at the Universities of Leeds and Hull, respectively - and has written for Defence Studies and The Critic, and for the latter about aspects of the UK’s 2021 Integrated Review of Defence and Security.

Follow him on Twitter @gjb70

• Dr James Bosbotinis is a freelance defence and international affairs analyst, specialising in maritime strategy and force developments. He is a regular contributor to Warships International Fleet Review, and is the Book Reviews Editor of The Naval Review. 

For more information about Dr Bosbotinis visit 

https://www.linkedin.com/in/jamesbosbotinis

He is on twitter @JamesBosbotinis

• Iain Ballantyne is the founding and current Editor of Warships IFR (first published in 1998) along with its ‘Guide to the Royal Navy’ (since 2003) and ‘Guide to the US Navy’ (since 2018). Iain is also author of the books ‘Hunter Killers’ (Orion) and ‘The Deadly Trade’ (Weidenfeld & Nicolson), both about submarine warfare, with his most recent books being ‘Bismarck: 24 Hours to Doom’ and ‘Arnhem: Ten Days in The Cauldron’ (Canelo History). For more details on Iain and his books visit the web sites 

http://iainballantyne.com and https://www.bismarckbattle.com/

Follow him on Twitter @IBallantyn

In a fascinating and absorbing discussion host Iain Ballantyne and guest Tom Sharpe discuss the US Navy destroyer USS Carney shooting down cruise missiles and drones over the Red Sea. As a former warship captain, Tom provides deeply insightful expert analysis on how the incident may have unfolded.

But the podcast first grips listeners with Tom’s insider perspective on tense anti-terrorist patrols aboard British frigates in the northern Arabian Gulf and facing the Iranian threat in the Strait of Hormuz.

Iain and Tom then consider the naval side of the Israel-Hamas crisis, not least the USA moving its nuclear-powered strike carriers around the geopolitical chessboard and what missions they and British vessels may undertake in the Mediterranean.

For more on the naval events discussed in this podcast get the December 2023 edition of Warships IFR - packed with commentaries, analysis, and news from the global naval scene! 

Further information on Warships IFR magazine  http://bit.ly/wifrmag 

Warships IFR is available in shops and direct as both a hard copy magazine and in digital format. You can make sure that you receive a regular delivery of global naval news and features by subscribing bit.ly/wifrsub

Follow it on X (formerly known as Twitter) via @WarshipsIFR and on Facebook @WarshipsIFR

•Tom Sharpe writes about the rigours of commanding a warship against the Iranian threat in the Strait of Hormuz in the forthcoming ‘Warships IFR Guide to the Royal Navy 2024’ https://bit.ly/GRN24e which is out on 14.11.23.

Tom spent 27 years in the Royal Navy, 20 of which were at sea. He commanded four different warships, including a fishery protection vessel, a Type 23 frigate (HMS St Albans), and the ice patrol vessel, HMS Endurance. Today he is a partner at SPP, an international communications consultancy, and also writes for The Daily Telegraph,  and occasionally for Warships IFR. 

Follow him on X (formerly Twitter) @TomSharpe134

•Iain Ballantyne is the Editor of Warships IFR and both its ‘Guide to the Royal Navy’ and ‘Guide to the US Navy’. He is the author of several books, including ‘Strike from the Sea’, which tells the story of the British and American navies at war in Middle East waters from the 1940s to the early 2000s. It is partly based on his numerous visits to warships on front-line operations. 

Follow him on X (formerly Twitter) @IBallantyn

Our special guest for a deep dive into British naval espionage during the Cold War is Mike Hurley, a veteran of undersea deployments in dangerous waters.

As a very young submariner in the late 1950s Mike endured marathon patrols in diesel-electric submarines, most notably HMS Taciturn.

In this fascinating discussion with Warships Pod host Iain Ballantyne, Mike reveals how Taciturn ventured into Arctic waters to gather intelligence on Red Navy exercises and, potentially, the foe’s secret technology.

As a conventional (non-nuclear) submarine, Taciturn had to risk ‘snorting’ to vent diesel fumes while charging her battery and also to suck in fresh air. This could expose the boat to the Russians. She was on one occasion attacked by a Russian destroyer and even detected by a potentially hostile submarine.

With often grim conditions - going short of water, running out of fresh food and oxygen, not daring to make the slightest noise when in close company with the Soviets - HMS Taciturn’s submariners somehow got through 38 days dived. On another patrol, communications were lost and it was feared by the boss of the Royal Navy’s Submarine Service that Taciturn and her men might have disappeared.

Such missions into the High North to spy on the Soviets were top secret. Once home again, Royal Navy submariners were under threat of imprisonment if they told even their families and loved ones about what they had been up to. Mike did not dare tell his family anything for a quarter of a century. 

It is a privilege therefore to take Warships Pod listeners on a Cold War voyage with Mike Hurley aboard HMS Taciturn. Mike’s warts and all account can only be likened to a latter-day ‘Das Boot’ adventure due to its grungy details. Some of them are not for the faint-hearted!

• Warships IFR magazine is available in shops and direct as both a hard copy mag and digital edition. You can make sure that you receive a regular delivery of global naval news and features by subscribing bit.ly/wifrsub 

For more information on Warships IFR magazine http://bit.ly/wifrmag 

Follow it on X (formerly known as Twitter) via @WarshipsIFR and on Facebook @WarshipsIFR

• Iain Ballantyne is the founding and current Editor of Warships IFR. He is also author of the books ‘Hunter Killers (Orion) and ‘The Deadly Trade’ (Weidenfeld & Nicolson), both about submarine warfare, including the Cold War under the sea. 

For more details on Iain and his books visit the websites http://iainballantyne.com and https://www.bismarckbattle.com/

Follow him on the social media platform X (formerly known as Twitter) via @IBallantyn