We Not Me

Episode Summary

In this hosts-only episode, Dan Hammond and Pia Lee start with an uncomfortable question: what's your P(doom), the probability you'd put on AI destroying humanity? They quickly move past it. Their view is that the bigger near-term risk is not the technology but who governs it, and that most leaders can't control that anyway. The question that matters is the one inside your own sphere of influence: how do you bring AI into your team without hollowing it out? Organisations are spending heavily on AI adoption with little clarity about why, cutting roles and then rehiring for them. People increasingly ask AI rather than a colleague, and polished "slop" is moving around organisations with no human owning it.

What changes the picture is treating AI as a team capability rather than an individual productivity hack. Research suggests teams using AI outperform both individuals and teams working without it, and AI can act as a neutral facilitator that helps groups get aligned faster. Pia maps a recent HBR piece on leadership mindset for AI adoption onto Squadify's Three Cs. The pairs are clarity over certainty, exploration over expertise, and emotional insight over emotional control. Together they make the case that AI adoption is a leadership job, not a tooling decision. Dan adds a reminder to look after the whole person, because individualised, always-on AI work can lead to brain fry and isolation.

Key Themes & Takeaways:

• The real AI risk most leaders can influence is not doom but fragmentation: AI can turn a team into a "company of one" where everyone works alone to prove their individual value.
• Teams using AI are significantly more likely to reach high-quality solutions than teams without it, so design AI in as a team sport, not a private shortcut.
• AI can act as a neutral teammate: teams report getting on the same page faster when AI clusters and wordsmiths their ideas, because nobody's ego owns the output.
• Leaders can't offer certainty right now, but they can build clarity, and confusing the two leaves people chasing something that isn't available.
• Exploration beats expertise in new territory; holding tight to past expertise out of fear is how teams go down with the ship.
• You are accountable for your output: if you pass on AI-generated work you haven't owned, you're handing colleagues slop they'll just feed back into AI to summarise.
• When people ask AI instead of a colleague, it is often to avoid wasting that colleague's time; leaders need to judge when a conversation is worth more than the efficiency.

Three Reasons to Listen:

1. Listen if your organisation is spending on AI without being able to say what it's for, or has cut roles it may have to rehire.
2. Listen if you've received a polished document, suspected no human really wrote it, and been tempted to ask AI to summarise it for you.
3. Listen if you think of AI adoption as a tech rollout. Dan and Pia argue it's a leadership challenge, and that the human skills of pausing, reading the room and exploring matter more now, not less.

Notable Quotes

Episode Summary

Most transformation programmes are built around the hardware of an organisation: the systems, the ERP rollout, the AI licences switched on and handed out. Michael J. López, consultant, author of CHANGE, and the person behind a new national workforce study of 1,000 workers, has spent two decades delivering that traditional playbook, and the last five trying to change it. His starting point is simple: when his team asked employees for the top five things they get from their company during change and the top five things they actually need, the two lists had nothing in common. What people get is the stuff done to them. What they need is the stuff done by them.

The conversation with Dan and Pia moves from diagnosis to what leaders can actually do differently. Michael names the "failure minimisation cycle," where everyone downplays how hard change will be to get budgets approved, which leaves people under-resourced and more cynical each time. His alternative is to treat change as a capability rather than a project: stress-tolerant cultures, executive teams that genuinely lead together, goals people feel they've contributed to, and progress measured through behavioural inputs and stories as well as hard outputs. It's an honest episode about why change takes 18–24 months, and why pretending otherwise costs more.

Key Themes & Takeaways

• In Michael's study, the top five things employees receive during change (emails, communications, training) had zero overlap with the top five they need (experimentation, room for productive mistakes, coaching, leaders going first, the right environment).
• The "failure minimisation cycle" is well-intentioned but corrosive: underselling complexity to win approval leaves people under-resourced, so change feels harder than promised and trust drops with every programme.
• Treat change as an organisational capability, a muscle built over time, rather than a project with an end date, because the next change is always coming.
• 65% of employees in the study felt their company's change plan asked them to move faster than was realistic; the systems can be installed quickly, but people need more time.
• The "what's in it for me" document rarely moves anyone; people commit to goals they feel they've contributed ideas and effort to, not goals handed down with a reward attached.
• The CEO's job includes preparing the executive team to lead change together; a committee without a committed champion is where programmes stall.
• Measure progress through "hard input signals" (new leadership and team behaviours) and "soft signals" (stories and cultural shifts), not only red-amber-green dashboards of outputs.

Three Reasons to Listen

Listen if you've watched a transformation programme get approved on a promise everyone privately knew was too optimistic, and then watched people pay the price for it.

Listen if your AI rollout amounted to "here are the licences, go and innovate" and you're wondering why so little has changed.

Listen if you've ever been expected to show certainty in a planning meeting when the honest answer was "we'll learn as we go."

Notable Quotes

Resources from Michael

• Website: michaeljlopez.coach
• Rethinking Change Management (the 2026 workforce study): Free Executive Summary · Full study
• Book, CHANGE: Six Science-Backed Strategies to Transform Your Brain, Body, and Behavior: Amazon · Audiobook on Apple Books
• Top Voice Podcast (live every Tuesday): YouTube · Apple Podcasts · Spotify
• Follow Michael: LinkedIn · Instagram

We Not Me turns 150 episodes old this month, and Dan Hammond and Pia Lee are using the milestone to talk about something every leader running a transformation is quietly grappling with: why 88% of organisational transformations fail — up from 70% not long ago. Prompted by a Forbes article on the subject, they dig into why "transformation" so often becomes corporate shorthand for restructuring, downsizing, or otherwise firing people, and why that confusion poisons trust before the real work even starts.

The conversation centres on Charles Handy's sigmoid curve — the idea that any curve of growth eventually turns downward, and that a new curve must be started while the old one is still rising, not after it's collapsed. Dan and Pia unpack why this is so hard in practice: leaders can see the need for change most clearly, but their teams are always a few steps behind on the emotional journey. Drawing on Elisabeth Kübler-Ross's stages of grief and William Bridges' distinction between change and transition, they argue that transformation isn't a communications exercise — it's an individual, leader-led process of helping people let go of identity, status, and habit before they can move toward something new.

Key Themes & Takeaways

• Transformation failure rates have climbed from 70% to 88% — and much of that is definitional: restructuring, downsizing, and "realignment" get dressed up as transformation, which employees correctly read as "you're fired," not "you're transformed."
• Charles Handy's sigmoid curve shows that a new curve must start before the current one peaks — but because performance looks fine on the way up, leaders struggle to convince anyone that change is urgent until it's too late.
• The transition zone between two curves is genuinely painful: old and new parts of the business end up competing for resources and legitimacy, with the "old" side feeling like the unwanted stepchild funding a new venture that isn't yet profitable.
• People don't just resist change intellectually — they move through denial, anger, and bargaining before reaching acceptance, and no two people move through that cycle at the same speed.
• Defining the new curve requires clarity on three things: what you're aiming for (clarity), the climate/culture needed to get there, and the competence — skills and behaviours — the organisation doesn't yet have.
• Leaders often assume the organisation will change while they personally stay the same — a fallacy that, left unchecked, is itself a predictor of ending up in the 88%.
• "Change fatigue" is real, especially when sigmoid curves land too close together — teams that haven't finished processing one change get hit with the next before they've found solid ground.

Three Reasons to Listen

• Listen if you've ever announced a change, moved on, and wondered months later why nothing actually shifted — this episode explains why communication isn't leadership.
• Listen if you're leading a transformation and privately think you'll be able to stay the same while everyone around you changes — Dan and Pia explain why that's a fallacy that quietly sinks change efforts.
• Listen if your team seems to be dragging its feet on a change you think is obviously right — the sigmoid curve explains why leaders are always further along the emotional curve than their teams, and what to do about the gap.

Notable Quotes

"Organizations change and people transition." — Pia Lee, citing William Bridges

"If you're leading change and you haven't changed, well, you're probably going to fit into the 88% (who will fail)." — Pia Lee

Max Crane runs La Stazione, the café in the Yorkshire Moors he bought last year from the mentor who gave him his start as a teenager. On the surface this is a conversation about coffee and community, but the real subject is what happens when a leader refuses to over-engineer culture: Max builds an entire team ethos around twenty-second interactions, hiring for character over CV, and treating mistakes as inevitable rather than dangerous.

The shift in the conversation comes when Max admits he can't fully explain why it works — and argues that's the point. The more deliberately you try to manufacture a "vibe" or codify values into a framework, the more it curdles. His approach — pick people for who they are, let them show up as themselves, debrief calmly after the shift rather than in the heat of the moment — offers senior leaders a useful provocation: sometimes the most replicable thing about a strong culture is refusing to over-systematise it.

2. Key Themes & Takeaways

• Max hires for character, not experience — a candidate with no CV who makes eye contact and laughs at a bad joke beats a "maestro" barista with eight years' service.
• His onboarding line to every new hire is "I hired you for you" — staff are told to be themselves with customers, not perform a script.
• Short interactions compound: Max argues you can meaningfully shift someone's whole day in the twenty to thirty seconds it takes to serve them.
• Mistakes are treated as low-stakes by design — errors are handled with a shrug and any real feedback is saved for after the shift, never in the moment, to avoid emotional fallout.
• Max is explicit that over-analysing or over-engineering culture kills it — the more you try to force positivity or codify it into values statements, the less genuine it becomes.
• He's candid about his own burnout risk as an owner-operator, and about learning that "being there" and "being present" are different things — an unavailable, exhausted leader can't actually support a team.
• The team functions as informal welfare infrastructure: Max describes staff quietly checking in on customers' wellbeing, and for some regulars — especially elderly customers — his team may be the only human interaction in their day.

3. Three Reasons to Listen

• Listen if you've ever tried to codify "culture" into a values deck and suspected it made things worse, not better.
• Listen if you're hiring and secretly know the strongest candidate on paper isn't always the strongest person for the room.
• Listen if you're a leader who's proud of how much you work — Max's honesty about burnout and "being there vs. being present" is a useful gut-check.

4. Notable Quotes

In this fascinating episode of We Not Me, Dan and Pia step into a leadership world that many listeners may know little about: the US public school system. Their guests, Dr. Kristen Weikle, Superintendent of McLean County Unit 5 in Illinois, and Denise Pontrelli, former superintendent and executive coach, reveal the extraordinary complexity of leading educational systems that serve thousands of students, families and community members.

With responsibility for nearly 13,000 students across 24 schools, Kristen's role extends far beyond education. From finance and transportation to communications, infrastructure, staff engagement and community relations, she operates as the CEO of a complex ecosystem with profound influence on the future of her community.

The conversation explores how leaders can navigate complexity, avoid the myth that they must have all the answers, and build high-performing teams that work in sync towards a common purpose.

Key Topics Discussed

• What a US school superintendent actually does and why the role resembles that of a CEO
• Leading a district serving nearly 13,000 students across urban, suburban and rural communities
• The importance of stakeholder management across students, families, staff, taxpayers and local businesses
• Why effective leadership is about multiplying capability rather than being the expert
• How executive coaching helps senior leaders create space for reflection and growth
• The role of Squadify in helping leadership teams improve alignment, innovation and decision-making
• The power of purpose when leading through uncertainty and complexity
• Building cultures where teams challenge ideas, reflect regularly and take action

Key Quotes

"You can get so much more done if you have a team of individuals that work together with you." – Denise Pontrelli

"We all need to be working towards achieving the goal and making progress together." – Dr. Kristen Weikle

"Squadify helps leaders be intentional about where they put their time and energy." – Denise Pontrelli"You don't have to be the expert in everything all the time." – Dr. Kristen Weikle

Three Leadership Takeaways

1. Leadership Is Not About Having All the Answers: Both guests challenge the common belief that leaders must personally solve every problem. In highly complex environments, success depends on building capable teams and trusting their expertise.
2. Purpose Is the Ultimate Compass: When operating in fast-changing, stakeholder-rich environments, purpose helps leaders cut through complexity. For Kristen and her team, every decision ultimately connects back to improving outcomes for students.
3. Reflection Must Lead to Action: Data, discussion and feedback are only valuable when they drive meaningful change. High-performing teams create deliberate moments to pause, reflect and then commit to specific actions.

Resources Mentioned

I Really Needed This Today – Hoda Kotb

A collection of short, inspiring stories and reflections offering perspective, encouragement and moments of gratitude.

The One Percenters: How to Get Things Done Now – Darrell Mann and Shannon Finnegan

A practical guide to creating focused, high-performing teams capable of delivering meaningful results and implementation.

Multipliers – Liz Wiseman

Referenced by Dan and Pia in the reflection segment, this leadership classic explores how leaders can amplify the intelligence and capability of those around them rather than unintentionally diminishing it.

We Not Me Reflection

One of the strongest themes from this episode is the danger of the "hero leader" mindset. Faced with immense responsibility, leaders often feel pressure to grip tighter, make more decisions and become the centre of everything. Yet Kristen's success comes from doing the opposite: creating alignment, trusting expertise and enabling leadership throughout the system.

As Denise observes, sustainable leadership is not about carrying the burden alone—it's about creating the conditions where teams can flourish together.

For any leader facing complexity, uncertainty or rapid change, this episode offers a powerful reminder:

The goal is not to become indispensable. The goal is to build a team that can achieve more together than any individual could alone.

Guest bios

Dr. Kristen Kendrick-Weikle has spent her entire career in Illinois public education, moving through the classroom, special education leadership, and the principal's office before becoming a superintendent in 2011. She led Warrensburg Latham CUSD #11 for nine years before taking the helm at McLean County Unit 5 School District in 2020, where she remains today. Along the way she earned a doctorate in Educational Leadership from Western Illinois University, researching how Illinois teachers use differentiated instruction — a topic that still shapes how she thinks about school leadership.

Denise Pontrelli built her career in Minnesota schools, rising from teacher leadership roles into district administration and eventually the superintendency at Stillwater Public Schools. After leaving the district seat, she moved into consulting and organizational design, first at SiteLogIQ and now as CEO of her own firm, PartnerED Consultants, where she works on leadership development and executive coaching for educators. She holds graduate degrees from the University of Minnesota in both teacher leadership and K-12 administration.

Dana Hargis is a mental health counsellor of 25 years and co-founder of Restore of Ada, a practice built around one idea: reset the nervous system and you change the quality of a person's life. Dan and Pia bring her on to unpack why so many workplace problems — burnout, conflict, broken teams, leaders who can't be reasoned with in a crisis — trace back not to bad character or bad strategy, but to a dysregulated nervous system that never learned to calm itself down.

What shifts the conversation is Dana's insistence that this is fixable, and mostly through small, unglamorous levers: noticing your own triggers, breath, sleep, blood sugar, grounding. She reframes self-destructive behaviour not as weakness but as a (misguided) attempt at self-regulation, and pushes the idea further into systems — a team, a family, a company is only ever as regulated as the people leading it. Improve yourself, and you pull the whole system up with you; decline, and it drags the system down too.

Key Themes & Takeaways

• Dysregulation isn't a mood, it's a mechanism — Dana argues nervous system dysregulation is behind failed marriages, custody battles and workplace breakdowns alike, because an unregulated nervous system shows up in every role a person holds.
• Trauma is inherited before birth — Dana points to research on maternal cortisol transferring to the fetus, meaning a person's baseline stress response can be shaped before they're born, by trauma they never directly experienced.
• Everyone has a "favourite" stress response — fight, flight or freeze — and the unproductive ones (like shutting down) get misread by colleagues as rudeness or disengagement rather than a nervous system in overload.
• A leader's regulation sets the ceiling for the team — "a team as a whole will be no better than their leader," and an unhealthy system will actively push out anyone who tries to function well within it.
• Self-destructive habits are attempts at self-regulation, not moral failure — Dana's reframe: sugar, alcohol, scrolling, and more serious addictions all light up reward pathways because they're the only regulation tool a person has found that works.
• Ownership beats blame — externalising a problem ("if he would just stop doing that") keeps the person who hurt you in power over you; taking ownership of your response is what actually frees you.
• Regulation is built from unglamorous basics — breath awareness, blood sugar stability, sleep, grounding, and biofeedback do more for a dysregulated nervous system than talking about the problem on repeat ever will.

Three Reasons to Listen

• Listen if you've ever watched a team quietly fall apart under a leader who "seems fine" — Dana explains why the system often can't see its own dysregulation from the inside.
• Listen if you've judged someone's coping mechanism (food, drink, doom-scrolling) without asking what it's actually doing for them — this episode reframes self-destructive habits as a nervous system trying to help.
• Listen if you're tired of blaming the last boss, the last colleague, the last decade for how you feel — Dana makes the case for ownership as the only route out, without ever blaming the victim.

Notable Quotes

Bio

Dana Hargus, M.Ed., LPC, is a licensed professional counselor with over 25 years of clinical experience and the founder of Restore of Ada, a wellness program designed to accelerate healing by targeting the nervous system. After nearly a decade in education, she built a multi-clinician counseling practice grounded in trauma-informed care and whole-person health. Dana’s work focuses on how nervous system regulation shapes relationships, team dynamics, and organizational culture, not just individual wellbeing. 

Dana integrates evidence-based approaches with practical, real-world application to help people create safer, more connected environments. Through her clinical work and Restore+, her digital community, she equips individuals and groups with tools to move beyond coping toward sustainable regulation, resilience, and relational health.

Steve McLeod has spent years building Feature Upvote, a small bootstrapped software company, and along the way became fixated on a question most product literature ignores: how do founders with no product manager, no big budget and no army of researchers actually decide what to build next? He set out to write a book about prioritization frameworks — and discovered almost nobody uses one. This episode is the story of what he found instead, drawn from interviews with ten small, self-funded software companies (including Squadify's own Dan Hammond and Pia Lee) about how they really make product calls under pressure.

The conversation lands on the "Hippo" — Highest Paid Person's Opinion — and the reassuring discovery that it's rarer than founders fear: the companies that lasted were the ones who brought their whole team into the decision, even when the founder ultimately had to call it. Steve walks through the recurring traps (chasing every early customer request until the product buckles under its own clutter), the founders who held their nerve on vision anyway, and the practical habit — ruthlessly deleting your backlog — that keeps decision-making sane as you scale.

Key Themes & Takeaways

• Most software is built by small, bootstrapped teams, yet almost all published advice on feature prioritization assumes you have VC funding and a dedicated product management function.
• In companies under roughly 30 people, a dedicated product manager rarely exists — the founder is the de facto product manager whether or not they were ever trained for the role.
• The feared "Hippo" (highest paid person's opinion) showed up far less than expected: the founders who survived were the ones who genuinely brought their team into the decision before calling it.
• Early customer flattery is dangerous — saying yes to every request in the early days can quietly bury a product in clutter, technical debt and UX debt until the simplicity customers loved disappears.
• Some founders held firm to a narrow product vision under customer pressure and it paid off (Balsamiq's low-fidelity-only stance); others drifted toward enterprise features and had to consciously claw back to their original audience.
• Saying no needs a companion habit: regularly deleting (or archiving) your backlog, since an ever-growing "maybe later" list becomes its own source of stress and false hope
• Co-founder decision-making works best with clear domain ownership and transparency about disagreement — naming the tension openly beats either person quietly overriding the other.

Three Reasons to Listen

• Listen if you're a founder secretly doing product management without ever having the job title for it — Steve makes the case that this isn't a phase to survive, it's exactly where you're supposed to be right now.
• Listen if your backlog has quietly become a graveyard of ideas you'll never build — there's a blunt, freeing argument here for deleting almost all of it.
• Listen if you and a co-founder (or any two people sharing decisions) keep circling the same disagreement — Dan and Pia's own way of working through this at Squadify gets picked apart in detail, including what they actually do when they don't agree.

Notable Quotes

Steve McLeod's Bio
Steve McLeod is the co-author of "Kill the HiPPO: How small, bootstrapped software companies decide what feature to build next". The book is a collection of interviews with founders of stable, mature, profitable software companies, telling real stories about how founders make hard product decisions.

Steve is a three-time bootstrapped founder and currently CEO of Feature Upvote, a SaaS platform for managing customer feedback.

After experiencing near burnout in his first company, Steve intentionally keeps his running of Feature Upvote low-stress, aiming for modest, manageable growth, so that he can keep mentally healthy while running it.

Originally from New Zealand, Steve has worked in Australia, Germany, the UK, Spain, and more briefly, in Switzerland and France. He now lives in Barcelona, Spain.

Links

• Kill the Hippo
• Feature Upvote

Ian Turner has spent over two decades as a Chief People Officer watching the same slow collision happen inside organisations: brilliant performers get promoted into leadership roles, never get developed as leaders, and quietly become — in Ian's phrase — "overpaid doers." This episode asks what it actually takes to be a human-centric business leader, why that capability is in shorter supply than it should be, and what the real commercial cost is when organisations let it drift.

The conversation lands on a deceptively simple idea: sustainable performance comes from leaders who hold the commercial and the human in the same hand at the same time — not alternating between them, but integrating both as a single discipline. Ian reframes what that looks like in practice, from getting out of your furrow in the carpet to understanding that every tech transformation is actually a people transformation with a tech element.

Key Themes & Takeaways

• Leaders who succeed long-term care passionately about two things simultaneously: delivering results and the people delivering them — treating these as one system, not a trade-off.
• Organisations have created a generation of "overpaid doers" — people promoted for technical excellence who were never equipped, trained, or expected to actually lead.
• The "furrow in the carpet" is a powerful diagnostic: if your daily movement through an organisation never changes, your leadership reach probably doesn't either.
• Attrition, stagnation, and cultural echo chambers are not people problems — they're the commercial consequences of ignoring the human side of performance.
• Post-COVID, companies that genuinely cared about their people maintained flexible, human-aware cultures; those that did it out of necessity are now facing the cultural bill.
• The most powerful thing a leader can offer isn't advice — it's belief. Coaching someone to their own solution builds both the answer and the person.
• Every tech transformation is a people transformation with a tech element — and leaders who frame it the other way around will keep hitting the same wall.

Three Reasons to Listen

Listen if your organisation keeps hitting numbers in the short term but quietly haemorrhaging your best people — Ian names exactly why, and it's not what most senior leaders want to hear.

Listen if you've ever caught yourself thinking that leadership is "on the side of the desk" — this conversation will reframe that as a strategic and commercial error, not just a personal development gap.

Listen if you're trying to make the case internally that human-centric leadership isn't soft — Ian builds the business argument clearly, without ever making it fluffy.

Notable Quotes

"They don't become leaders because they're recruited into those more senior roles because they've been a great salesperson, a great product person, a great marketer — and they've not been recruited because they show true leadership traits."
— Ian Turner

"Every transformation is a people transformation with a tech element. It's not a tech transformation with a people element."
— Ian Turner

"One of the most powerful things you can offer another person isn't advice — it's belief."
— Ian Turner (referencing Jenny Rogers, Coaching Skills)

Ian's bio
Ian Turner, a Chief People Officer, talent strategist and leadership coach with over two decades of experience shaping people and culture across some of the UK's most recognised organisations. From leading transformation programmes and building high-performing teams to championing social mobility and developing future talent, Ian has built a reputation for combining commercial acumen with a genuinely human approach to leadership. He's passionate about helping people realise their potential and creating workplaces where both individuals and organisations can thrive.

Episode Summary

Joel Casse spent over two decades inside large global organisations — most recently as Nokia's Global Head of Leadership Development — watching senior teams up close. What he found wasn't a talent problem. It was a behaviour problem: packed agendas with no room for the team itself, leaders competing to showcase expertise rather than build on each other, and decisions perpetually kicked offline.

The conversation explores why this happens — egos, function-first loyalty, a bias for action that keeps teams stuck above what Roger Harrison calls the "waterline" — and what actually shifts things. Joel's tool is the balcony move: stepping out of the discussion to name what he observes. One quiet observation ("I've counted eight 'let's take it offline' in 20 minutes") became a two-hour conversation about how that team made decisions. Slow to go fast.

Key Themes & Takeaways

• Most senior teams debate (I'm right, you're wrong) rather than dialogue (let's understand each other) — and almost never ask genuine questions
• The waterline model: teams focus on task and content; relationships and process stay hidden until something breaks
• The SPQA framework: Situation → Problem → Question → Answer. The mistake is jumping straight from problem to answer
• "Let's take it offline" is a red flag — it means the conditions for real decisions don't exist in the room
• Irritating behaviours go unchallenged because peers won't hold each other accountable and leaders see it as babysitting
• The balcony move — stepping back to name what you observe — is the most underused act in senior team leadership
• When senior leaders change, it trickles down: their direct reports start doing check-ins, calling out patterns, working the same way

Three Reasons to Listen

• Listen if your leadership team meetings feel busy but never quite land anywhere. Joel names exactly what's happening — and why the smartest people in the room are often the ones causing it.
• Listen if you've ever sat in a meeting counting how many times someone said "let's take it offline." There's a two-hour conversation hiding in that habit.
• Listen if you want one thing to do differently as a leader or coach. The balcony-and-dance move is simple, and Joel has watched it ripple from the C-suite all the way down.

Notable Quotes

"When a leader is doing 80% of the talking, there's a fair chance that the team isn't doing well. They're not learning." — Joel Casse

"Teams tend to be a collection of people — not necessarily having a common goal with interdependency and a common fate. If you fail, well, that's your problem." — Joel Casse

"Leadership is your main course. It hass become the side dish — or a tiny pot of condiment you don't even have to have." — Dan Hammond

Joel's bio

Joel Casse is an executive coach and leadership architect with over 20 years of experience developing leaders and teams in global, matrixed organisations. Based in Munich, he has spent the majority of his career at Nokia, where he coaches executive teams and directs high-potential programs. Before Nokia, he worked at Novartis. He has worked with CEOs, Presidents, and VPs and their leadership teams on topics ranging from succession discussions to strategic off-sites to cross-team collaborations. He has led company-wide leadership frameworks, overseen flagship executive programs, and guided multiple leaders to C-suite promotions. Joel also teaches at Duke CE and Emeritus Business School, delivering executive interventions for companies in retail, banking, insurance, and IT. He holds an ILM 7 Executive Coaching accreditation and co-authored the book “Leadership for a New World.”

🎧 Three reasons to listen

• Make feedback less scary and more useful – learn why most feedback triggers defensiveness and how to avoid it
• Get a practical framework you can use immediately – mindset, relationship, and delivery
• Handle difficult conversations with confidence – be honest and direct without damaging trust

Episode overview

In this episode, Dan and Pia are joined by Katie O’Brien Ceccarini, leadership coach and author of Fearless Feedback, to tackle one of the most challenging aspects of leadership: feedback.

They explore why feedback often creates fear and resistance—and how to reframe it as a constructive, human conversation.

Katie shares her Fearless Feedback framework, focusing on mindset, trust, and practical delivery, helping leaders move from awkward, avoided conversations to clear, confident, and growth-oriented dialogue.

Memorable moments

• “No, I’m not.” – Katie’s honest story of being labelled defensive (while feeling embarrassed internally)
• The finding that 90% of people don’t want to hear “Can I give you feedback?”
• The “food in your teeth” analogy for why feedback should be timely
• A powerful reframe: “Feedback without action is criticism.”
• The shift from analysing the past to co-creating what happens next

Practical takeaways

• Start with mindset:
  Go in believing you are helping the person succeed
• Ditch the word “feedback” in the opener:
  Lead with what’s in it for them
• Use the three-part framework:
  • Mindset → why you’re saying it
  • Relationship → trust and safety
  • Delivery → clarity and structure
• Make it a conversation, not a monologue:
  Ask questions and co-create next steps
• Focus forward:
  Spend less time analysing what went wrong, more time on what to do next
• Create accountability:
  Agree follow-ups and shared responsibility
• Act quickly:
  Don’t wait—feedback loses value when delayed

Katie's’s media recommendation

• 📖 Still Human: How to Build Organizations Where Leaders and Teams Thrive with AI
  A timely exploration of how to maintain humanity, connection, and leadership impact in an AI-driven world

Bio
Katie O'Brien Ceccarini is the Founder of Endurance Management Coaching, a Certified Executive Coach, and author of Fearless Feedback: Everything Managers Have Never Been Taught About Feedback.

At 22, she began managing her first team with no handbook, no roadmap — just botched conversations and stretched-thin moments every leader knows too well. That experience is exactly why she wrote this book: not to give theory, but to give managers what actually works.

Over 20 years, she's managed, trained, and developed thousands of people — from scaling Customer Success at Yelp to leading Learning & Development at Opendoor. She's taught her Fearless Feedback Mastery course on Maven since 2022, earning a 4.8 out of 5 rating.

Today she works with organizations like eBay, LinkedIn, and AllState to build high-performing teams with the power of feedback.

Links

• Fearless Feedback
• Still human