We're Not Marketers

Crystal Crouch turned driving the Oscar Mayer Wienermobile into a product marketing empire - and she's not keeping the secrets. The woman who put Zach on the consulting path drops truth bombs about why 90% of company data is garbage, why product management is harder than PMM (fight us), and how being hyper-organized means her 9-year-old has never eaten a frozen chicken nugget.

If you've ever wondered whether to charge hourly or by project, or why your messaging doc is just an expensive PDF no one reads, this episode will either inspire you to level up or quit entirely. Either way, you win.

More from this episode...

• Product marketers are demand translators, not demand creators (and why that matters)

• The Oscar Mayer Wienermobile taught Crystal crisis management at 19

• Why product management is 10x harder than PMM (Crystal said it, not us)

• 90% of company data is dirty - and that's being generous

• The one question that determines if you should take a consulting client

• Why Crystal's kids live by the Pomodoro method (and only have one TV)

• How to use silence to negotiate like a pro (hint: treat yourself like a product)

• The real reason your messaging docs are expensive paperweights

• Why you should NEVER offer free consulting work (but acts of service are different)

• Crystal's secret: "Happiness is a choice" - even when clients are a nightmare
  

Show Notes
00:59 Introducing Crystal Crouch: The PMM Who Changed Zach's Life

02:36 Are Product Marketers Actually Marketers? The Demand Translation Theory

05:00 Why Product Management is 10x Harder Than PMM

08:00 The Real Definition of GTM (Spoiler: You're Probably Wrong)

12:00 Crystal's Journey to Consulting: From Church to Clients

15:30 Three Lessons for Consultant Success

17:00 The Truth About Free Work and Acts of Service

19:00 How Crystal Balances It All: Pomodoro Method & One TV

23:00 Living by the Calendar: The Secret to Work-Life Balance

26:00 Negotiation Masterclass: Treat Yourself Like Product Pricing

29:00 Why 90% of Company Data is Garbage

31:00 The ROI Question: How to Handle It Like a Pro

33:00 Automatic Client Red Flags

36:00 Fixing Broken Data Without Doing It Yourself

40:00 Building Confidence: Stop Competing With Others

44:00 The Power of Kindness in Business

47:00 Why Every PMM Needs Sales Training

48:50 Happiness is a Choice: Crystal's Final Wisdom

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Product marketers aren't marketers—they're architects while everyone else chooses to paint walls (no shade). Hattie the PMM shares her brutal journey from respected CEO to crying on calls as a micromanaged IC, revealing why PMM respect disappeared the moment she hit corporate payroll. We dive deep into the "becoming vs. doing" philosophy, why your money-limiting beliefs might be killing your consultancy, and how to extract value from companies while they extract from you. Raw, real, and revolutionary—this episode might make you quit your job or finally charge what you're worth.

More from this convo...

• From BBC/Wall Street Journal features to being treated like a child at work

• Why PMMs are architects while marketers are just painting pretty walls

• The day respect disappeared: "The minute my name hit their payroll"

• How to build your $100K consultancy while keeping your day job

• Why companies pay consultants 3X more for the same PMM work

• The "becoming vs. doing" trap that keeps PMMs broke

• Money limiting beliefs: Why you won't send the invoice

• The strategic visibility system that changes everything

• Why your framework knowledge means nothing without becoming

• How to extract value from companies that don't value you

Timestamps

00:00 Introduction & The Cher of Product Marketing

02:00 The Big Question: Are Product Marketers Actually Marketers?

02:30 The Architect vs. Interior Decorator Analogy

03:00 PMMs as Foundation Builders

04:00 From CEO to IC: The Respect Vanishing Act

05:00 BBC, Wall Street Journal, Cambridge University Days

06:00 Corporate America Reality Check

07:00 Micromanagement & Workplace Bullying

08:00 Childhood Trauma & Workplace Triggers

09:00 The Crying on Calls Era

11:00 Why PMM Respect Doesn't Exist

13:00 The Consultant Premium Phenomenon

15:00 Building Your Empire While Employed

17:00 The Strategic Visibility System

19:00 Rapid Fire Round Begins

21:00 Worst Career Advice

23:00 Budget Allocation Debates

25:00 Personal Branding Strategy

27:00 AI Impact on PMM

29:00 The Newsletter Game

31:00 Career Milestones & Roadblocks

33:00 Why Companies Pay Consultants More

35:00 Extract Value While They Extract From You

37:00 Building Frameworks on Company Time

39:00 The April Dunford Model

41:00 Roadblocks vs. Roadmaps

43:00 The Becoming vs. Doing Philosophy

45:00 Deep Coaching Approach

47:00 Why Information Isn't Enough

49:00 The Workout Analogy

50:00 Money Limiting Beliefs

51:00 Invoice Avoidance Psychology

52:00 The Profitable PMM Challenge

53:00Closing&WheretoFindHattie

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Product marketing is marketing at it's purest form (not our words) —but only if we redefine what marketing actually means. Garrett Jestice, founder of Prelude, explains why tech companies get marketing backwards, how AI shifts risk from building to selling, and why messy go-to-market isn't a channel problem—it's a foundational problem. We dive into the CPG vs. SaaS marketing divide, why founders don't get PMM, and the brutal truth about connecting your work to revenue. Spoiler: If you can't explain who you're selling to and why, more ads won't save you.

More from this convo...

• Why product marketers are the "purest form of marketing" (but tech ruined it) •

• The CPG lesson that every SaaS company needs to learn •

• How AI is making "can we build it?" irrelevant •

• Why your messy GTM isn't a lead problem—it's a foundation problem •

• The Cheerios brand manager approach to product marketing •

• How tech companies segmented marketing into irrelevance •

• The brutal truth about connecting PMM work to revenue • Why early-stage companies are PMM paradise •

• The "small wins" strategy for proving PMM value • How to sell yourself internally (when founders don't get it) •

• Why more ads won't fix your broken positioning

Timestamps

00:00 Introduction & First Redheaded Guest

01:00 Guest Introduction: Garrett Jestice, Prelude Founder

02:00 The Big Question: Are Product Marketers Actually Marketers?

02:30 "Purest Form of Marketers" But Not Today's Definition

03:00 The CPG Background: Cheerios at General Mills

04:00 Brand Managers as General Managers

04:30 CPG vs. Tech: Where the Real Risk Lives

05:00 AI Shifting Risk from Building to Selling

06:00 The Minneapolis Connection

07:00 Physical Products vs. Digital "Ones and Zeros"

09:00 The Segmentation Problem in Tech Marketing

11:00 Product Team vs. Marketing Team Divide

13:00 Why Founders Don't Understand PMM

15:00 The Language Barrier with Engineering Founders

17:00 Building in Public & Personal Branding

19:00 Rapid Fire Round Begins

21:00 Worst Marketing Advice Stories

23:00 Budget Allocation Debates

25:00 The AI Hype Cycle Discussion

27:00 Personal Branding for PMMs

29:00 The Newsletter Renaissance

31:00 SEO in the AI Age

33:00 Career Journey: CPG to SaaS

35:00 Founding Prelude Agency

37:00 Early-Stage Company Focus

39:00 The Foundation Problem in GTM

41:00 Working with Founders Who Don't Get It

43:00 Getting Wins in Their Language (Revenue)

45:00 Connecting PMM Work to Revenue

47:00 Small Wins Strategy

49:00 Messy GTM Execution Fix

50:00 Channels vs. Foundations

51:00 How to Sell Consulting Internally

52:00 Closing & Where to Find Garrett

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Your PMM credibility is at stake, CRO demands more leads, without knowing what's winning revenue. Sounds familiar?

Drew Giovannoli, founder of Buried Wins, calls it the 'sales deck monkey'. Don't get him wrong, as he believes PMMs should help sellers win yet, without clear buyer insights on what's winning, how can we, PMMs? That's why Drew bobbed and weaved his own consultancy focused on win-loss analysis.

In this momma knock-you-out (respectfully) episode, we uncover why win-loss is more than 'tracking win rates and ignoring loss complaints'. If you ever had your back against revenue dashboard, you already know why full win-loss analysis drives more conversions than low-signal white paper leads.

More on what we cover...

• Why PMMs without win-loss analysis are just "sales deck monkeys" 

• The shocking truth: Your entire company is already in marketing (they just don't know it) 

• How a layoff and two weeks notice led to a thriving agency 

• Why generalized PMM consulting is dead (and what to do instead) 

• The brutal first 6 months: Zero clients except former bosses 

• Win-loss as the "canary in the coal mine" for positioning problems 

• Why being a founder means being a salesperson first, PMM second 

• The annual planning cycle hack that finally brought clients 

• How to replace yourself as the most expensive consultant 

• The "choose your hard" philosophy of PMM entrepreneurship 

• Why nothing matters until someone pays you (repeatedly)

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Product marketers aren't marketers—they're non-conformist rebels! Amanda Groves, VP of PMM at Enable, who rocketed from IC to VP in just 2 years explains why. She breaks down why PMMs need to be trolls under bridges, why slowing down actually speeds you up, and how painting and ultra marathons make her a better leader. We dive into the PMM-to-CMO pipeline, fighting AI Mad Libs, and why the best product marketers challenge everything with intention.

Warning: This episode might make you quit conforming and start rebelling.

What to gather in this convo:
• How to go from IC to VP of PMM in just 2 years (hint: be a rebel) 

• Why product marketers should be "trolls under bridges" 

• The slow-down-to-speed-up philosophy that's breaking Silicon Valley 

• What ultra marathons teach you about product marketing leadership 

• Why painting on the side makes you a better PMM leader 

• The "controllables vs. uncontrollables" framework that saves careers 

• How to fight the AI Mad Lib epidemic in your messaging 

• Why more PMMs should be gunning for CMO (and how to get there) 

• The non-conformist hiring strategy that builds killer teams 

• What PMM leaders are fighting for that ICs never see 

• The disagree-and-commit principle that changes everything

Timestamps
00:00 Introduction & Amanda's Weird LinkedIn Journey

01:00 Guest Introduction: IC to VP in 2 Years

02:00 The Big Question: Are Product Marketers Actually Marketers?

02:30 "We Are More Than Marketers" - The Non-Conformist Theory

04:00 What Makes a Non-Conformist PMM

05:00 Rebels Who Pull Invisible Threads

06:00 The Troll Under the Bridge Analogy

07:00 Slow Down to Speed Up Philosophy

09:00 Building PMM Foundations Without Crumbling

11:00 Career Trajectory: The Non-Linear Path

13:00 From Content to Demand Gen to PMM

15:00 Why Product Marketing Was "The Most Fun"

17:00 Current Role at Enable & Team Building

19:00 Ultra Marathons & Mental Fitness

21:00 The Painting Practice & Creative Outlets

23:00 Rapid Fire Round Begins

24:00 Worst Marketing Advice Ever Received

26:00 Budget Allocation Debates

28:00 The AI Mad Lib Problem

30:00 Customer Advisory Boards Discussion

32:00 PMM Career Paths & Fractional Trends

34:00 The PMM to CMO Pipeline

37:00 Product-Led Growth Companies as PMM Paradise

39:00Disagree and Commit Principle

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Marketers have become glorified executors, and, Nick Power isn't here to sugarcoat it. The lowercase LinkedIn legend– who also leads marketing at Noun Project– joins us to explain why your strategy docs are bullshit, why he'd delete his digital presence tomorrow, and how running five miles beats any marketing framework. We talk anti-billionaire content, why brevity is the ultimate flex in marketing, and how the entire tech industry turned marketing into a commodity.

Warning: This episode might make you quit your job or completely rethink your career—either way, you're welcome.

What we cover:
• Why Nick Power thinks 90% of marketers aren't actually marketing anymore 

• The shocking reason a LinkedIn influencer would delete his entire digital presence 

• How to fit an entire strategy into ONE SENTENCE (seriously) 

• Why your positioning docs are expensive PDFs nobody reads 

• The anti-billionaire marketing philosophy that's actually about mental health 

• What happens when you've never worked with a product marketer (spoiler: you survive) 

• The grind culture lie that's killing your creativity 

• Why running 5 miles beats any marketing framework • How to give readers "the gift of surprise" in every post 

• The real reason marketing became a commodity in tech

Timestamps

01:00 Hot Guest Introduction & Lower Case Legend

02:00 The Big Question: Are Product Marketers Actually Marketers?

02:22 Nick's Controversial Take: "Very Few Marketers Are Marketers"

03:00 The System Problem: Executors vs. Strategists

04:00 Marketing as a Commoditized Craft

05:00 Nick's Background: CPG to B2B Tech

06:00 Rapid Fire Round Begins: Digital Presence vs. Family

07:00 The Mixed Bag of Online Attention

08:30 Zoom Calls vs. Person Captivity

10:00 Content Strategy: Wake Up and Write

11:30 LinkedIn Trolling & Negative Engagement

13:00 Quitting Social Media Discussion

15:00 The State of Marketing Salaries

17:30 Marketing Budget Allocation Debate

19:00 Personal Branding vs. Company Branding

21:00 The Death of Blogging

23:00 Keyword Strategy & SEO Reality Check

25:00 Marketing Advice You'd Give Your Younger Self

27:00 Worst Marketing Experience Stories

29:00 Firing Yourself from Marketing

31:00 Career Identity Crisis Discussion

33:00 Breaking Down Nick's Content Strategy

35:00 The Art of Brevity: One-Sentence Philosophy

36:00 Anti-Billionaire Content Explained

37:00 Late-Stage Capitalism & Grind Culture Critique

38:00 Coping Mechanisms: Running, Music, Kids

39:00 From Surf to Run: Finding Flow State

40:00 Mental Health in Marketing

41:00 Closing & Noun Project Shoutout

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Product marketing—marketing's favorite misunderstood stepchild or just expensive project management in disguise? 

Pranav Piyush (ex-Dropbox, ex-Bill, founder of Paramark) joins the crew to drop some inconvenient truths: most PMMs are stuck doing thankless work because nobody knows who actually runs the business. We're talking hypothesis-driven thinking, why talking to customers isn't optional, the statistical traps that make your research garbage, and why that rebrand probably won't save your pipeline. Also:

• The "HIPPO problem" destroying 90% of PMM effectiveness

• The three data pitfalls that make your research worthless (cherry-picking is just the start)

• Why statistics courses should be mandatory for every marketer

• The hypothesis-based approach that turns opinions into provable strategies

• Why measuring creative team productivity is a complete waste of time

• The incrementality blind spot: 99% of B2B orgs have no clue about their marketing ROI

• Activity metrics you should ignore vs. the engagement signals that actually matter

If you've ever felt like a glorified PowerPoint factory or wondered why your data never wins arguments, this episode will either validate your existence or make you question everything. Either way, you'll finally understand why the role exists in the first place.

TIMESTAMPS:
00:00 Introduction and Host Intros

00:37 Introducing the Guest: Pranav Piyush

00:46 Pranav's Background and Career Highlights

01:25 Personal Anecdotes and Adventures

02:40 Origins of the Podcast

03:37 The Role of Product Marketers

07:04 Challenges in Product Marketing

17:40 The Importance of Data in Marketing

24:00 Understanding Positioning and Messaging

24:45 Qualitative vs Quantitative Research in Messaging

25:04 The Role of Customer Research

30:13 Activity Metrics: What Really Matters?

34:29 Creative Work and Measurement

37:31 The Importance of Incrementality

43:58 Rebrands: Are They Worth It?

47:11 Final Thoughts and Podcast Promotion

SNOW NOTES:

Pranav's LinkedIn 

Paramark

Elena Verna

Statistical significance

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Season five kicks off with the announcement nobody asked for but everyone needed: We're Not Marketers is throwing an event, and it's nothing like the stale hotel ballroom marathons you're used to. 

Eric, Zach, and Gab break down why they're risking it all to create a three-day PMM experience that's equal parts tactical workshop, adventure vacation, and therapy session for product marketers who are tired of pretending B2B has to be boring. 

Get the juicy details on how they infiltrated Drive 2025, why they're limiting attendance to 150 people, and what happens when three solopreneurs decide confidence beats certainty. 

→ Why three solopreneurs with zero event planning experience think they can beat PMA
→ The real reason behind the fake mustaches at Drive (hint: it's not just for laughs)

→ The "sitting makes you stupid" theory: Why ballroom marathons kill creativity

→ How wearing a Halloween costume to a B2B event makes you more yourself, not less

→ Most PMMs need a recharge and haven't had one in years

If you've ever wondered why PMM events feel like eating cardboard while someone reads you PowerPoint slides, this episode will either inspire you or make you think we've completely lost it.

Timestamped

00:00 - Season 5 Intro: Two Years of We're Not Marketers
02:15 - The Big Announcement: We're Throwing an Event
04:30 - Why PMM Events Are Broken (And Why We're Fixing Them)
08:45 - The Mustache Origin Story: From Highline to Drive
12:20 - Behind the Scenes: How We Decided to Commit to the Bit
15:20 - Analysis Paralysis vs. Bold Action: Our Decision-Making Process
18:50 - The 150-Person Formula: In-House, Fractional, and CMOs
22:15 - Why Events Should Feel Like Vacations, Not Work
26:40 - The Fractional PMM Problem: Gatekeeping in B2B Events
29:30 - What Makes a Great Event: Lessons from Highline and Drive
32:10 - The Ryan Holiday Moment That Validated Everything
35:45 - Our Event Philosophy: Shipping Over Theory
38:20 - Why We're Taking the Risk (Even If It Fails)
42:00 - What Attendees Are Asking For: Tactical, Fun, and Real

SHOW NOTES:
Courage Is Calling" by Ryan Holiday

Highline Conference

Drive Conference

We're Not Marketers Event Waitlist

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AI-powered competitive intel is the new snake oil, and executives are buying it by the gallon. While everyone's obsessing over ChatGPT doing their research in 20 minutes, they're missing the point entirely—your buying champions don't need a 30-page report about why your competitors suck. They need ammunition to win internal battles with their CFO, their boss's boss, and six other stakeholders who couldn't care less about your feature comparison chart. Tune in for the brutal truth about why most competitive intel is just expensive garbage and what champions actually need to get deals done.

What to expect while listening...

• Why executives trust ChatGPT more than their own product marketers (and why that's insane)

• The "30-page report trap" that makes buying champions want to quit deals

• Eric's AI horror story: When ChatGPT said their product was live before it existed

• Gab's "structural laziness" hack that 9x'd his ad creation speed

• Why competitive intel is becoming the "B2B scapegoat" for lazy thinking

• The four deadly traps killing your win rates (spoiler: volume isn't success)

• How "gotcha moments" backfire and destroy champion relationships

• Why CEO handshakes don't close deals anymore (ask Dropbox about Crayon)

• The comparison page problem: All green checkmarks vs. all red X's

• Zach's client who said ChatGPT delivered more in 20 minutes than his expertise
  

If you've ever wondered why your competitive intel doesn't actually win deals, or if you're tired of executives waving their ChatGPT reports around like they just discovered fire, this episode will either save your sanity or make you question everything. Either way, your champions will thank you.

Timestamps

02:00 The Ugly Truth About AI-Powered Competitive Intel

07:00 AI vs. Human Expertise: The Battle for Trust

13:00 The Four Traps Killing Competitive Intel Programs

18:00 Why "Laziness" is Ruining B2B Sales Enablement

24:00 Gab's Messaging Sprint Success Story

31:00 What Champions Actually Need to Win Deals

36:00 The Death of CEO Handshake Deals

40:00 How to Train AI Without Losing Your Mind

44:00 MIT Study: ChatGPT is Eroding Critical Thinking

47:00 Season Wrap-up & See You Next Season

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What happens when a product marketer leaves the in-house grind to start her own consultancy? According to Alex Virden, it changed how she saw product marketing entirely.

In this episode, Virdical founder shares why PMMs aren’t traditional marketers, how consulting rewires your thinking, and what startup leaders really need when they ask for help. From messy handoffs to misaligned messaging, Alex explains the recurring pain points that surface in the go-to-market function and how external voices can reset the entire narrative.

She also share knowledge on:

• The power dynamics that make consultants more effective than internal PMMs

• Why hourly billing models can backfire (and what to do instead)

• How to spot when your org needs a third-party voice to fix GTM strategy

• Tactics for commanding a room with CEOs (even if you're the outsider)

• How to avoid getting pulled into the basement making decks and one-pagers

• Practical advice for PMMs transitioning into consulting or freelance work

  
  

If you’ve tried to run a strategic PMM project while dodging CEO opinions and internal politics, this episode is a must-listen.

Whether you're in-house and underwater or eyeing the consultant leap, Alex Virden brings receipts, real talk, and a clear lens on what modern product marketing really looks like when done right 🫡

Timestamps:

02:54 Are Product Marketers Actually Marketers?

04:59 The Role of a Product Marketing Consultant

09:23 Challenges and Insights in Product Marketing

16:24 Structuring Consulting Engagements

24:19 Maintaining Control in Client Meetings

26:31 Meeting Disasters and Control

27:20 The Importance of Structured Agendas

29:06 Hypotheses and Curiosity in Product Marketing

30:46 Challenges in Messaging and Stakeholder Meddling

32:17 The Role of External Validation

34:59 Demand Generation vs. Product Marketing

38:58 The 4Ps and Modern Marketing

43:49 Final Thoughts and Staying Connected

Show Notes:
Alex’s LinkedIn  

Virdical Website

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