Video landed on every marketer's plate this year. Nobody added headcount for it, and nobody explained how to actually get one made. Natalie Taylor runs marketing at Capsule, where enterprise teams like HubSpot, ServiceNow and Instacart build on-brand video without going through a creative team, and she has spent two years watching product marketers get stuck in the same queue.

Her fix runs against the standard playbook. Stop treating the launch video as the last asset. Make it first, because it is the most complex format you own, and once it is right the copy, the visuals and the email GIFs all fall out of it.

She also walks through what an agentic video skill actually does, step by step, and says the quiet part out loud about her own category: most AI product demos are not showing you real output. Then the whole thing detours into a pizza tier list that somehow lands the sharpest AI argument in the episode.

SHOW NOTES

00:00 Cold open and host introductions

00:41 Natalie joins, and admits she has never held the title of product marketer

01:56 The question the show exists for: are product marketers actually marketers?

02:18 Why marketing labels never made sense to her

03:20 "You're a marketer if you're doing marketing"

03:24 The one exception: why demand gen sits in its own bucket

05:19 The Tuesday afternoon Slack message that says "let's do some product videos"

05:54 Everyone is being asked to make video, job description or not

07:36 The old workflow: ask the creative team, join the queue, wait

08:25 Fully agentic video, without opening an editing tool

09:23 Eric asks whether video is back in fashion or just newly possible

10:17 What Twitter's feed of launch videos says about the format

11:14 Capsule starts with the launch video instead of ending with it

12:58 Anthropic as the model for tier-two launches

14:01 Capacity versus tooling when you are one person

15:19 Video skills, walked through with a Zendesk example

16:36 Why most AI video tools are one shot, and why this one hands you a project

18:39 What a PMM should actually go learn about video

19:52 You should not need to be an expert to make something good

20:43 Gab on developing taste

21:03 The agentic promise versus the learning curve nobody mentions

23:31 Zach on feeling like an idiot yelling into a chatbot

24:07 Smoke and mirrors, and how Natalie is launching against the hype

25:05 The pizza tier list begins

27:34 "An AI agent won't be able to do that for you"

30:03 Zach imagines Natalie as a MasterChef judge

31:03 Pizza is a canvas, and so is AI

33:17 The pizza industry secret, and the oven she and her husband built

35:07 Chicago, New York, or New Haven

35:53 Where to find Natalie

SOURCES

Capsule, the video platform Natalie runs marketing for: https://capsule.video

Modern Pizza Products, the oven she co-founded: https://www.modernpizzaproducts.com

Emily Kramer's fuel and engine framework: https://newsletter.mkt1.co/p/fuel-engine

Natalie on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nataliecstaylor/

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This is the Death to Marketing episode. Zach, Eric and Gab take stock of what it has actually cost to build a conference from nothing: the $200 sponsorship offer that set the whole thing in motion, the $90,000 in sponsors they have since closed, the 48 people who have bought tickets, and the friend who texted to say he wasn't coming.

What it does to you when the success of your business becomes the measure of you as a person, why selling tickets turned out to be harder than selling sponsors, and the lesson none of them expected to learn about asking for help.

Death to Marketing is October 11 in Holland, Michigan. *Recorded August 10, 2026.

Show Notes

• (00:00) Why the branding scared people off — on purpose
• (00:39) "It's not an event for everybody"
• (01:46) Neither of them had ever run an event
• (02:58) The $200 offer that started all of this
• (03:23) From a $200 reimbursement to $90,000 in sponsors
• (04:30) The math that made no sense
• (05:04) The two events that set the bar
• (06:46) Are conferences a crutch for the PMM community?
• (10:28) Enough about PMA
• (11:02) The real number, said out loud
• (11:05) "48 people we have to pay to have a good time"
• (12:24) Someone bought a ticket from Scotland
• (12:55) What turned out to be easier than expected
• (13:11) The moment it stopped being a bit and became a real event
• (14:12) "This is the rollercoaster we're going to be taking"
• (15:22) Hiring a partner who pushes back on you
• (16:37) What Eric took on personally
• (20:05) Why planning it made it easier to say no to sponsors
• (20:36) Running an event like a product launch
• (22:05) How this compares to every sales kickoff they've sat through
• (23:05) The one thing no other event is doing
• (25:21) The hard stuff starts here
• (25:49) When your business becomes your identity
• (26:54) The text from a friend who wasn't coming
• (27:37) "An event run by these three losers"
• (29:00) "I want this to be the only event we ever throw"
• (29:59) Turtle pace: the grind of selling tickets
• (30:55) The discipline of narrowing the audience mid-sale
• (34:38) The delegation problem
• (36:09) "One of the heaviest things you'll ever do"
• (37:59) Keep, stop, do over
• (38:47) Keep: the partner
• (41:42) Do over: the waitlist
• (43:36) Do over: invite-only?
• (43:58) The coin flip nobody can call
• (45:23) If they do it again, it might be a stage play
• (48:31) The ask, without the false urgency

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Jason Druss spent 15 years being the customer — a film colorist at Warner Bros, NFL Films, and his own Philly boutique — before Adobe pulled him into product marketing for Premier Pro and After Effects. In this episode, Jason (Principal Product Marketing Manager, Adobe) drops his takes: why workflow isn't a buzzword when you've actually lived it, how his team runs a private WhatsApp group with hundreds of users, and why being your own ICP is both a superpower and a trap.

If you've ever felt like a fraud talking about users you've never met, this one's for you.

More from this episode

• Why "customer" gives Jason the ick (and what word he uses instead)

• The PMM job is 50% talking to users — not Slack, not slides, not strategy decks

• How Adobe's PMM team gets buy-in before a feature exists, not after

• The Tarantino move: why Jason starts every story at the end

• Being your own ICP is a cheat code… until it makes you look like a fanboy at annual planning

• The exact reason Frame.io's Camera to Cloud killed an industry workflow that hadn't changed since 1920

• Why every PMM should buy a pillow with their product's logo on it (yes, really)

• The unsexy truth about "creative freedom" — you have to earn it with data first

• How Jason found his PMM job: he wasn't looking, his mentor was watching his LinkedIn posts

• Why "make it pretty" and "make it beautiful" are two completely different briefs

Time Stamps
00:00 Cold open — the misfit intros

00:45 Why this episode is different: a PMM pulled IN to PMM, not chasing it

01:30 Jason Druss intro — from colorist to Adobe PMM

02:15 THE QUESTION: Are product marketers marketers?

03:30 "We're storytellers before we're marketers"

04:30 Should the product or the user be the main character?

05:30 The trap of feature-led storytelling vs. workflow thinking

07:00 What "workflow" actually means (and why it's not jargon)

09:00 The Frame.io / Camera to Cloud story

12:30 How Frame.io rewrote a 100-year-old industry workflow

14:00 Jason's spicy take: PMMs must eat, live, breathe the product

16:00 How user needs have shifted dramatically in 5–10 years

18:00 The Premier Pro pillow story (and why every PMM should have one)

19:00 Where most companies fail at user research

20:30 The private WhatsApp group with hundreds of users

21:30 Weekly webinars, betas, and the questions you're NOT asking users

24:00 Scrappy is a state of mind, not a company size

25:00 Jason's career timeline: Blackmagic → NFL Films → Warner Bros → Frame.io → Adobe

28:00 The crisis of faith — leaving "colorist" behind

30:00 Why Jason's passion is impossible to fake

31:30 The dark side of being your own ICP

33:00 Mixing intuition with data — the PMM credibility unlock

35:00 Advice for aspiring PMMs: become a subject matter expert first

38:00 The creativity rant — your differentiator vs. AI

41:30 ROI, business metrics, and earning the seat at the table

44:00 The "beautiful circle" of product marketing (and who's outside it)

46:00 Where to find Jason + Adobe Max teaser

48:00 Outro

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Some of B2B are the cool kids shouting "synergy" with spinach dip in hand. Gila Shapiro — copywriter, PMM, and resident chaos agent at Fireflies.ai — joined the crew to roast corporate buzzwords, expose "copy thinking" and "copy pasting" with AI, and give the founder POV trick that ends executive copy fights forever.

If you've ever been asked to "elevate enterprise synergies," this one's for you.

More from this episode

• The two words that should disqualify any marketer from giving copy feedback (hint: rhymes with "synergy")

• Why having a frying pan doesn't make you a chef — and writing copy doesn't make you a copywriter

• The "shout pineapple" school of copywriting

• Why B2B brands are scared of being unfollowed — and why that's why nobody clicks

• The dinner party test that kills 90% of corporate jargon on contact

• The difference between "copy thinking" and "copy pasting" (and why one of these kills your career in 18 months)

• Gila's reverse-engineering trick for ending founder vs. marketer copy fights forever

• Why making your boss happy and making your customer click are two completely different jobs

• The brutally honest reason most messaging processes are broken — and the only fix that actually works

• Gila pitches Riverside vs. SquadCast live on the show (and we may or may not be switching now)

Show Notes

Timespan:

00:00 Cold Open & Host Introductions (Eric, Zach, Gab)

01:00 Introducing Gila Shapiro — Copywriter, PMM, Creative Strategist at Riverside

02:50 The Recurring Question: Are Product Marketers Actually Marketers?

04:00 The "Elevate Your Enterprise Synergies" Test

05:30 Writing Copy vs. Being a Copywriter — The Frying Pan Analogy

07:00 Gila's Process: Say the Terrible Thing Out Loud

07:35 The Dinner Party Test

09:00 Why Most People Default to Corporate Jargon

12:30 Be Interested to Be Interesting — The Customer Interview Trick

15:30 Ownership at Riverside & Wearing Multiple Hats

17:30 The Broken Brief-to-Copy Handoff Process

19:30 What to Do When Good Copy Doesn't Convert

21:30 Personal Brands vs. B2B Brands: Why B2B Is Afraid

23:30 AI for Job Security — Copy Think vs. Copy Paste

27:00 The "Copy Think vs. Copy Paste" Framework

30:00 Internal Fights with Executives Over Copy

31:25 The Founder POV Reverse-Engineering Trick

33:30 Burnout, Garden Gnomes, and Chasing the Fun Parts

36:30 Live Pitch: Why Switch from SquadCast to Riverside?

40:30 Cheers and Farewell

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Louis Grenier has run a podcast called Everyone Hates Marketers for 8 years. He's not here to be nice about it. In this episode, Lou breaks down why product marketing only exists because B2B tech forgot what customers actually want — and why your positioning project is probably being run by the wrong person. We cover customer research frameworks, the CEO buy-in problem no one talks about, and the Irish convenience store that is a crime against positioning. Hit play before your next messaging doc meeting. You'll thank us.

More from this episode

• Product marketing only exists because B2B tech companies got so far from their customers they had to invent a role to translate what the product actually does.

• Why the most powerful thing a consultant can offer is not being inside the company.

• Lou's actual Hotjar failure — why the CMO wasn't enough to make repositioning work.

• The six things you need to know from customers before you can touch a positioning doc.

• Why calling something a "marketing initiative" is the fastest way to kill CEO buy-in.

• "Sniff the same glue" — Lou's surprisingly accurate description of organizational alignment.

• The 3-meter Irish storefront that is simultaneously a convenience store, Indian takeaway, off-license, and Red Bull dealer. One shop. Three meters. Zero positioning.

• Why community is just a word companies use when they want a place to sell at people without being obvious about it.

• Lou's hot take on co-founders: "Good luck to whoever wants to take that role with me."

• The one customer research mistake that guarantees useless data: talking to the wrong people at the wrong time.
  

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Are product marketers actually marketers, or are they just glorified slide deck designers waiting for sales to bark orders? David Lim—a PMM who's survived Google, HP, and multiple startups—joins the skeleton crew to drop some uncomfortable truths. We talk about earning respect when founders don't have a clue what you do, why knowing your customer's quarterly priorities is a superpower, and what happens when you fight a C-suite exec on product strategy (spoiler: sometimes you get fired). If you've ever been asked to "make that deck pretty," this one's for you.

More From This Episode

• The brutal truth: What happens when you don't earn internal respect as a PMM

• Why sales teams don't talk to product teams (and how PMMs become the bridge)

• The one customer question David asks that unlocks everything: "What are your quarterly priorities?"

• David got fired for fighting a founder on product strategy—here's what he learned

• Why most founders have zero idea what PMMs actually do (and think you're just a lead gen machine)

• The "gut feeling" trap: When executives ignore your research and launch anyway

• How to stop rolling your eyes when leadership makes dumb decisions (David admits he's not good at this)

• Why working under the product org might actually be better for PMMs

• The ultimate PMM flex: Knowing your customer better than anyone in the company

• Are PMMs actually marketers, or just the people who make sales decks look pretty?

Time Stamps
00:00 Introduction and Season 5 Kickoff

00:59 Introducing Guest: David Lim (PMM at BVO)

02:36 The Big Question: Are Product Marketers Actually Marketers?

04:15 How PMMs Earn Respect (Or Get Stuck in the Black Hole)

07:00 What Sets PMMs Apart: Cross-Functional Collaboration

09:45 The Research That Changed Everything (Working Under Product Org)

13:00 Advocating for PMM: Educating Teams on What You Actually Do

16:00 The Metrics Problem: What Should PMMs Own?

20:00 Working with Customer Success Teams (QBRs and Product Feedback)

23:00 When You Know the Customer Better Than Anyone Else

26:00 Understanding Quarterly Priorities (The Detail Most PMMs Miss)

29:00 Customer Advisory Boards and Sales Advisory Boards

33:00 The Struggle: When Executives Ignore Your Research

35:00 David's Story: Getting Fired for Fighting Product Strategy

38:00 Gab's Story: When a Writer Called the Product "Shit"

40:00 Rolling with the Punches (And Why It's Hard)

42:00 In-House vs. Agency PMM: The Respect Difference

45:00 Post-Launch Research: The Key to Proving You Were Right

47:00 The Founder Talk: Setting Clear Expectations

49:00 Understanding the Customer's Buying Process

50:00 Wrap-Up and Where to Find David

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Product marketers think they own the messaging. SEO thinks they own the traffic. But who actually owns your website—and why are they both probably wrong? In this spicy debate with BX Studio, we dig into the turf war destroying B2B websites, why your CEO is the real problem, and the radical idea that maybe your website should actually reject leads (yes, really). Buckle up for hot takes on keyword worship, the death of MQLs, and why your Rolex store strategy is all wrong.

Featuring from BX Studio...
Jacob Sussman, CEO

Nikiya Griffith, Director of Organic Growth

Grace Arrese, Partnerships Associate

More from this episode

• Why adding SEO keywords is like putting ketchup on a wagyu steak

• The real reason your website converts trash leads (hint: it's not the copy)

• What Rolex stores know about lead qualification that B2B marketers don't

• The "Irish Exit" messaging framework that'll change how you write forever

• Why tracking MQLs is like measuring your height to lose weight

• The CEO wrecking ball effect (and why it destroys every website eventually)

• How QuickBooks became a cautionary tale for AI-obsessed marketers

• The Writer's Wiki secret that could save product marketing 20 hours a week

• Why your anti-ICP strategy matters more than your ICP

• The shocking truth about who actually owns your website (spoiler: it's not who you think)

Time Stamps

00:00 Opening & Attendee Check-in

01:00 Real Humans vs AI Note-takers Discussion

02:00 Setting the Stage: PMMs vs Non-PMMs

03:00 The Main Question: Who Should Own the Website?

03:45 Eric's Hot Take: Product Marketing Should Own It

04:45 Nikia's Counter: Joint Ownership is Key

05:45 Website Ownership and Blame Discussion

07:00 Real-World Website Conversion Problems

08:30 The Writer's Wiki Solution

11:00 Dream Relationships Between PMM and SEO

13:00 Keyword Lists vs Message-First Approach

16:00 Website Design and FAQ Strategy

18:00 The CRO/CEO Acronym Confusion

20:00 QuickBooks AI Positioning Disaster

22:00 Who Has Final Say on Messaging?

26:30 The CEO Wrecking Ball Problem

29:00 The Irish Exit Messaging Analogy

31:00 Metrics That Matter: SQLs vs MQLs

33:00 The Rolex Store Anti-ICP Strategy

35:00 Enterprise Positioning and Deterrence

38:00 Nikia's Counter: Why More Metrics Matter

41:00 The Internal Echo Chamber Problem

45:00 GEO vs SEO: The New Frontier

48:00 Closing Thoughts and Farewell

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Crystal Crouch turned driving the Oscar Mayer Wienermobile into a product marketing empire - and she's not keeping the secrets. The woman who put Zach on the consulting path drops truth bombs about why 90% of company data is garbage, why product management is harder than PMM (fight us), and how being hyper-organized means her 9-year-old has never eaten a frozen chicken nugget.

If you've ever wondered whether to charge hourly or by project, or why your messaging doc is just an expensive PDF no one reads, this episode will either inspire you to level up or quit entirely. Either way, you win.

More from this episode...

• Product marketers are demand translators, not demand creators (and why that matters)

• The Oscar Mayer Wienermobile taught Crystal crisis management at 19

• Why product management is 10x harder than PMM (Crystal said it, not us)

• 90% of company data is dirty - and that's being generous

• The one question that determines if you should take a consulting client

• Why Crystal's kids live by the Pomodoro method (and only have one TV)

• How to use silence to negotiate like a pro (hint: treat yourself like a product)

• The real reason your messaging docs are expensive paperweights

• Why you should NEVER offer free consulting work (but acts of service are different)

• Crystal's secret: "Happiness is a choice" - even when clients are a nightmare
  

Show Notes
00:59 Introducing Crystal Crouch: The PMM Who Changed Zach's Life

02:36 Are Product Marketers Actually Marketers? The Demand Translation Theory

05:00 Why Product Management is 10x Harder Than PMM

08:00 The Real Definition of GTM (Spoiler: You're Probably Wrong)

12:00 Crystal's Journey to Consulting: From Church to Clients

15:30 Three Lessons for Consultant Success

17:00 The Truth About Free Work and Acts of Service

19:00 How Crystal Balances It All: Pomodoro Method & One TV

23:00 Living by the Calendar: The Secret to Work-Life Balance

26:00 Negotiation Masterclass: Treat Yourself Like Product Pricing

29:00 Why 90% of Company Data is Garbage

31:00 The ROI Question: How to Handle It Like a Pro

33:00 Automatic Client Red Flags

36:00 Fixing Broken Data Without Doing It Yourself

40:00 Building Confidence: Stop Competing With Others

44:00 The Power of Kindness in Business

47:00 Why Every PMM Needs Sales Training

48:50 Happiness is a Choice: Crystal's Final Wisdom

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Product marketers aren't marketers—they're architects while everyone else chooses to paint walls (no shade). Hattie the PMM shares her brutal journey from respected CEO to crying on calls as a micromanaged IC, revealing why PMM respect disappeared the moment she hit corporate payroll. We dive deep into the "becoming vs. doing" philosophy, why your money-limiting beliefs might be killing your consultancy, and how to extract value from companies while they extract from you. Raw, real, and revolutionary—this episode might make you quit your job or finally charge what you're worth.

More from this convo...

• From BBC/Wall Street Journal features to being treated like a child at work

• Why PMMs are architects while marketers are just painting pretty walls

• The day respect disappeared: "The minute my name hit their payroll"

• How to build your $100K consultancy while keeping your day job

• Why companies pay consultants 3X more for the same PMM work

• The "becoming vs. doing" trap that keeps PMMs broke

• Money limiting beliefs: Why you won't send the invoice

• The strategic visibility system that changes everything

• Why your framework knowledge means nothing without becoming

• How to extract value from companies that don't value you

Timestamps

00:00 Introduction & The Cher of Product Marketing

02:00 The Big Question: Are Product Marketers Actually Marketers?

02:30 The Architect vs. Interior Decorator Analogy

03:00 PMMs as Foundation Builders

04:00 From CEO to IC: The Respect Vanishing Act

05:00 BBC, Wall Street Journal, Cambridge University Days

06:00 Corporate America Reality Check

07:00 Micromanagement & Workplace Bullying

08:00 Childhood Trauma & Workplace Triggers

09:00 The Crying on Calls Era

11:00 Why PMM Respect Doesn't Exist

13:00 The Consultant Premium Phenomenon

15:00 Building Your Empire While Employed

17:00 The Strategic Visibility System

19:00 Rapid Fire Round Begins

21:00 Worst Career Advice

23:00 Budget Allocation Debates

25:00 Personal Branding Strategy

27:00 AI Impact on PMM

29:00 The Newsletter Game

31:00 Career Milestones & Roadblocks

33:00 Why Companies Pay Consultants More

35:00 Extract Value While They Extract From You

37:00 Building Frameworks on Company Time

39:00 The April Dunford Model

41:00 Roadblocks vs. Roadmaps

43:00 The Becoming vs. Doing Philosophy

45:00 Deep Coaching Approach

47:00 Why Information Isn't Enough

49:00 The Workout Analogy

50:00 Money Limiting Beliefs

51:00 Invoice Avoidance Psychology

52:00 The Profitable PMM Challenge

53:00Closing&WheretoFindHattie

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Product marketing is marketing at it's purest form (not our words) —but only if we redefine what marketing actually means. Garrett Jestice, founder of Prelude, explains why tech companies get marketing backwards, how AI shifts risk from building to selling, and why messy go-to-market isn't a channel problem—it's a foundational problem. We dive into the CPG vs. SaaS marketing divide, why founders don't get PMM, and the brutal truth about connecting your work to revenue. Spoiler: If you can't explain who you're selling to and why, more ads won't save you.

More from this convo...

• Why product marketers are the "purest form of marketing" (but tech ruined it) •

• The CPG lesson that every SaaS company needs to learn •

• How AI is making "can we build it?" irrelevant •

• Why your messy GTM isn't a lead problem—it's a foundation problem •

• The Cheerios brand manager approach to product marketing •

• How tech companies segmented marketing into irrelevance •

• The brutal truth about connecting PMM work to revenue • Why early-stage companies are PMM paradise •

• The "small wins" strategy for proving PMM value • How to sell yourself internally (when founders don't get it) •

• Why more ads won't fix your broken positioning

Timestamps

00:00 Introduction & First Redheaded Guest

01:00 Guest Introduction: Garrett Jestice, Prelude Founder

02:00 The Big Question: Are Product Marketers Actually Marketers?

02:30 "Purest Form of Marketers" But Not Today's Definition

03:00 The CPG Background: Cheerios at General Mills

04:00 Brand Managers as General Managers

04:30 CPG vs. Tech: Where the Real Risk Lives

05:00 AI Shifting Risk from Building to Selling

06:00 The Minneapolis Connection

07:00 Physical Products vs. Digital "Ones and Zeros"

09:00 The Segmentation Problem in Tech Marketing

11:00 Product Team vs. Marketing Team Divide

13:00 Why Founders Don't Understand PMM

15:00 The Language Barrier with Engineering Founders

17:00 Building in Public & Personal Branding

19:00 Rapid Fire Round Begins

21:00 Worst Marketing Advice Stories

23:00 Budget Allocation Debates

25:00 The AI Hype Cycle Discussion

27:00 Personal Branding for PMMs

29:00 The Newsletter Renaissance

31:00 SEO in the AI Age

33:00 Career Journey: CPG to SaaS

35:00 Founding Prelude Agency

37:00 Early-Stage Company Focus

39:00 The Foundation Problem in GTM

41:00 Working with Founders Who Don't Get It

43:00 Getting Wins in Their Language (Revenue)

45:00 Connecting PMM Work to Revenue

47:00 Small Wins Strategy

49:00 Messy GTM Execution Fix

50:00 Channels vs. Foundations

51:00 How to Sell Consulting Internally

52:00 Closing & Where to Find Garrett

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