We're Not Marketers

If you’ve ever felt a gap between brand and product marketing, we’ve had an expert who’s been in both roles and is telling us that there’s not that different.

Brand and product marketing expert Jon Itkin joins We're Not Marketers to dismantle outdated perceptions of marketing. The traditional divide between product marketing and brand marketing is harmful — and that truly impactful PMMs must think and act like "whole hundred marketers." From mastering macro market dynamics to understanding why memorability beats micro-optimization, John shares a treasure trove of insights to help PMMs step into strategic leadership. We’re covering:

• The 4 Cs framework: Capabilities, Credibility, Convenience, and Cost

• The danger of treating marketing like "arts and crafts" (and how to stop)

• Why being memorable is the true competitive advantage in crowded markets

• How convenience beats capabilities more often than you'd think

• How category leaders stay leaders (hint: it's not features)

  
  

Expect hard truths, practical frameworks, and some very strong opinions about why marketing fundamentals still matter more than ever. 👀

Timestamps:

00:54 Introducing the Guest: Jon Itkin

01:26 The Role of Product Marketers

04:34 Macro vs. Micro Perspectives in Marketing

07:16 Brand vs. Product Marketing

18:32 Differentiation in Product Marketing

26:15 Google's Convenience Advantage

26:44 The Importance of Convenience in B2B

27:15 Positioning and Buying Process

28:56 Switching Campaigns and Self-Service

30:28 Understanding the Four Cs

32:34 Leveraging AI for Competitive Analysis

41:12 Branding and Credibility

45:51 Final Thoughts and Reflections

Show Notes:

Jon’s LinkedIn

In the Kitchen 

Jon 4 C framework on Miro

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Is product marketing really marketing? Or is it something more (or less)? In this deep-dive episode, Humans of MarTech co-founder Phil Gamache joins the crew to unpack what it truly means to be a marketer today—and why product marketing often feels like a misunderstood offshoot of the craft. 

From the forgotten “P” in the marketing mix to the role of AI in shaping how teams work together, this episode balances reflection, tactical insight, and Phil’s unmistakable chill candor. Learn how product marketers can better collaborate with marketing ops, why summarizing research matters more than polishing the perfect message, and how GenAI will shift execution forever.

The ultimate marketer and podcast legend educate us on:

• Why most customer research never gets shared—and how to fix it

• The AI use case every PMM should be doing today (and probably isn’t)

• “You can never give an LLM too much context”—unless you do

• Phil’s rule of thumb: brief AI like you brief your analyst

• The PMM x Martech collab that unlocks ICP clarity
  

This one’s a must-listen for any PMM trying to earn cross-functional credibility and not just ship decks no one reads.If you’ve ever felt like the ‘silent’ in the marketing department, this episode will help you find your voice and your seat at the table.

Timestamps:

00:00 Introduction and Host Roundtable

01:05 Introducing the Special Guest: Phil Gamache

01:55 Are Product Marketers Actually Marketers?

05:50 Phil's Experience with the Four P's of Marketing

09:22 Challenges and Roles in Marketing Ops

12:45 The Future of AI in Marketing

24:30 The Current State of AI

25:10 Leveraging AI for Customer Research

29:06 Practical Tips for Summarizing Customer Interviews

31:58 The Importance of Context in AI Prompts

40:02 Collaborating with Marketing Ops for Better Data

43:23 Exploring AI Tools: MidJourney vs. DALL-E

45:30 Conclusion and Farewell

Show Notes:

Phil’s LinkedIn

Humans of Martech Podcast

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Is working fractional that secret weapon for in-house PMMs? In this no-holds-barred episode, Eric, Zach, and Gab debate whether product marketers with fractional experience have an edge when they return in-house. We dive into the gritty reality of juggling multiple clients, the mental health rollercoaster of working solo, and why most people don't understand what it truly takes to do it. Tune in for honest insights, soul-crushing reality checks, and maybe a few Mexican oranges along the way.

Here's what to expect when listening...

• The real reason in-house PMMs with fractional experience have better boundaries with their bosses

• Why fractional PMMs develop stronger time management and communication skills than their in-house peers

• The surprising statistic about entrepreneurship and mental health (entrepreneurs are 2x more likely to face depression)

• How building a side hustle while employed gave Zach a "running start" when he got laid off

• Why hedging your bets with fractional work is smart even if you love your in-house job

• The brutal reality check: "I don't want to glorify the work...I was up at 4:30 AM doing work just to get ahead"

• When to know if fractional work is right for you (and who should absolutely avoid it)

• The truth about those LinkedIn success stories claiming "$20K/month after just 3 months"
  

Time Stamps

• 00:00 Introduction and Host Banter

• 01:00 Episode Topic: Are in-house PMMs more effective with fractional experience?

• 02:30 Defining Fractional PMM Work

• 03:45 The Difference Between Client Relationships vs. Boss Relationships

• 05:58 The Truth About Company "Family" Culture

• 07:15 Advantages of Fractional Work (Scope Control, Premium Pay)

• 08:20 Challenges of Pricing Fractional Services

• 09:05 The Feast or Famine Reality of Fractional Work

• 10:45 Building a Side Hustle While Working In-House

• 12:02 Hedging Your Bets in an Uncertain Economy

• 14:00 Exploring Why People Stay In-House vs. Going Fractional

• 15:45 Finding Work You Actually Look Forward To

• 18:12 Key Skills Developed Through Fractional Work

• 21:00 The Mental Health Challenges of Solo Entrepreneurship

• 22:15 Book Recommendation: "The Dip" by Seth Godin

• 23:05 The Statistic on Entrepreneurship and Mental Health Risks

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In this spicy episode, CEO & Founder of Foundation Marketing, Ross Simmonds reveals why content without distribution is just expensive digital paperwork. We dive into why product marketers ARE marketers (yes, even SEOs), how to build "content moats" that will still be paying dividends in 2030, and why LLMs will actually make SEO more valuable, not less.

Ross drops some truth bombs about AI scraping the internet that might make you reconsider where you're spending your marketing budget.

• Why product marketing is just one layer of the "marketing onion" (and why that matters)

• The skills every marketer needs to develop if they want that sweet promotion (and bigger paycheck)

• Why your marketing strategy shouldn't mindlessly copy Canva's TikTok—even if it's working for them

• How SEO experts accidentally taught ChatGPT everything it knows (and why Google still matters)

• The "content moat" strategy that will determine which companies dominate in 2030

• Why your CMO should be investing in content and SEO right now (before it's too late)

• How the rise of AI makes SEO MORE important, not less (despite what LinkedIn gurus say)

• The uncomfortable truth: if you can't sell your ideas internally, you're in the wrong job

• How to build "T-shaped" marketing skills (and why you need a capital "I" instead)

  
  

If you want your content to actually drive results five years from now instead of disappearing into the digital void tomorrow, hit play. Ross reveals the distribution-first mindset that separates marketing that works from marketing that wastes.

Show Notes

00:41 Meet Our Guest: Ross Simmonds

03:09 The Evolution of Marketing

05:37 The T-Shaped Marketer

10:03 Distribution First Mindset

14:09 SEO and Product Marketing

18:21 Investing in Content and SEO

24:11 Effective Content Distribution

31:18 Reflecting on Early Challenges

31:58 Embracing AI for Content Distribution

32:39 The Importance of Obsession and Continuous Learning

34:20 Practical Steps to Stay Ahead in AI

36:36 Building and Experimenting with AI Projects

45:55 Sharing Ideas and Overcoming Self-Doubt

49:10 The Power of Experimentation and Content Creation

52:14 Final Thoughts and Future Plans

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Are most B2B marketers actually doing customer research wrong?

In this episode, Content Lift founder Ryan Paul Gibson reveals why "just talking to customers" isn't enough and why one-third of marketers can't even get access to customers at all.

From his days timing how long people take to put cream in coffee to calling customers without permission, Ryan shares guerrilla tactics for getting real insights when your company stands in the way.

Tune in for a masterclass in effective customer investigation that goes beyond the junk food advice most marketers are fed:

• Why most customer interviews produce useless insights that can't guide marketing decisions

• The 95-5 rule: Why 95% of your market isn't ready to buy (and why that's what marketers should focus on)

• How one simple purchase decision took Ryan three years to make (and why that destroys most marketing dashboards)

• Why B2B marketers who can't explain unit economics will always lose budget battles

• The fundamental difference between B2C and B2B that most founders don't understand

• How Reddit changed B2B buying decisions forever (and why sales teams haven't caught up)

If you've ever tried to make data-driven marketing decisions but got stuck with anecdotes instead of insights, this episode is your lifeline. Ryan shows you how to conduct customer research that actually informs strategy instead of just confirming what you already believe. Hit play to learn investigation techniques that will make your marketing budget work twice as hard.

Timestamps:

00:54 Meet Our Guest: Ryan Paul Gibson

01:50 Are Product Marketers Actually Marketers?

02:49 The History and Evolution of Marketing

04:56 Ryan's Journey into B2B Marketing

10:00 Challenges in Product Marketing

14:54 The Importance of Customer Interviews

23:05 Understanding B2B Marketing Dynamics

30:24 Understanding Research Design

30:59 Challenges in Client Engagement

36:09 The Role of AI in Market Research

36:50 Qualitative Research and Thematic Analysis

38:47 Leveraging AI for Faster Insights

41:21 Contextualizing Data with AI

49:51 Effective Customer Conversations

57:02 Final Thoughts and Contact Information

Show Notes:

• "Crossing the Chasm" by Geoffrey Moore

• Ryan Paul Gibson's "DIY Customer Investigation Guide"

• Eisenberg 95-5 Rule Research

• Ryan's LinkedIn

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Is sounding "enterprise" killing your marketing message? In this episode, conversion copywriter Jessica Malnik joins the crew to expose why the most effective copy isn't about being clever—it's about stealing your customers' exact words.

We dive into customer research plays you can use now, why corporate speak is a conversion killer, and how LinkedIn "lunatics" sacrifice credibility for clicks. Tune in for practical tips on creating content that actually converts instead of just sounding smart.

What you get when you listen

• Why product marketers are the "Swiss army knife" of marketing (and why that's a good thing)

• The surprisingly simple research hack top copywriters use to write enterprise copy that doesn't sound robotic

• The hidden Reddit goldmine most marketers completely overlook

• How AI can help you analyze 1,000+ customer comments in minutes (including the exact prompts to use)

• Why Jessica refuses to work with pre-revenue startups (and what this means for your messaging)

• The embarrassing LinkedIn trend that's landing marketers on the "LinkedIn Lunatic" subreddit

• Why "What's in it for them?" trumps creativity every single time

• The counterintuitive reason why Jessica actually prefers clients with no messaging brief

• The three types of LinkedIn posts that drive real business (not just vanity metrics)

Show Notes

00:00 Introduction and Guest Introduction

01:47 Jessica Malnick on Product Marketing

03:36 Navigating Copywriting Challenges

08:34 Human Touch in Copywriting

10:08 Using Reddit for Audience Research

11:27 Tools and Techniques for Copywriting

18:34 LinkedIn Strategies for PMMs

23:05 Final Thoughts and Resources

26:16 Conclusion and Sign-Off

• Why being human in your copy matters more in the age of AI than ever before

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If you're tired of building landing pages that follow "best practices" but still fail to convert qualified leads, this episode will change everything. Whether you're a product marketer afraid of paid ads or a demand gen specialist struggling to get PMM buy-in, this episode will help you create pages that actually respect your buyers' intelligence while driving real business results.

 This week, we've joined by Tas Bober, growth marketing advisor and Scroll Lab founder. She reveals why the traditional approach to landing pages and sales collateral is fundamentally broken.

We're covering:

• Why most B2B landing pages look identical (and why everyone hates them)

• How hiding pricing backfires when buyers find wildly different answers on Reddit

• The simple reason most CTAs fail (and it has nothing to do with the button text)

• How B2B companies waste countless hours debating stock photos instead of fixing real problems

• The contrarian approach: Why a good landing page should DECREASE your conversion rate

• "No one buys pants on the first visit" - Why optimizing for direct conversions is misguided

• How to build a freelance business: "Back up your backup" and why your career hinges on your network

In this episode, Tas explains to the misfits her "champion's business case" framework that replaces manipulative marketing tactics with transparent, value-focused content.

She delivers practical wisdom for creating landing pages that treat buyers like adults.

Listen for actionable insights on disqualifying bad-fit leads, writing effective CTAs, and building a foundation for freelance success beyond the corporate grind.

Timestamps:

• 02:43 Are Product Marketers Actually Marketers?

• 03:38 "Product Marketers Are CEOs, Baby" - Why PMMs Run the Show

• 07:00 The Biggest Red Flags on Landing Pages

• 09:00 The Champion's Business Case Framework for Landing Pages

• 12:25 What a Complete Business Case Contains

• 14:25 Why PMMs Don't Like Paid Ads (But Should)

• 17:00 Why PMMs Should Be Involved in Campaign Landing Pages

• 22:00 How to Create Effective CTAs That Actually Convert

• 27:00 Why Hiding Pricing Information Backfires

• 31:12 The Truth About B2B Buying Behavior (It's Not What You Think)

• 37:15 Why Good Landing Pages Decrease Conversion Rates

• 45:00 How B2B Sales Collateral Overwhelms Buyers

• 48:03 The MVP Approach to Landing Pages for Resource-Strapped PMMs

• 54:15 The Problem with Obsessing Over Stock Photography

• 57:22 How to Build a Successful Solo Consulting Business

• 01:01:12 Building Your Network as Your Net Worth

Show Notes:

Tas LinkedIn

Her B2B website and landing page resource hub

Tas Website

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Ever wonder why most bottom-of-funnel content feels generic and fails to convert? In this episode, content strategy advisor Lashay Lewis drops knowledge bombs on the critical gap between product marketing and content marketing. She breaks down why teams are working in silos, how bottom-funnel content fails when the reader knows more than the writer, and why product marketers are the unsung heroes of effective marketing. 

• Why the knowledge level of the reader being higher than the writer kills bottom-funnel content conversions

• The reason most marketing teams fail to create effective bottom-funnel content 

• "Micro action, macro patience": The mindset shift that can transform your career in 6 months

• Why most companies operate like high school cliques, and how to break those silos

• The uncomfortable truth: freelance writers can't create effective technical bottom-funnel content

Listen for practical frameworks on cross-team collaboration and real talk on making the scary leap from full-time to fractional success.

Timespan:

02:12 Are Product Marketers Actually Marketers?

04:15 Product Marketers as Underutilized Marketing MVPs

06:41 The Problem with Siloed Communication in Marketing Teams

09:12 What is the Bottom of Funnel Gap?

12:03 Why Bottom Funnel Content Fails to Convert

14:53 Questions to Ask Different Teams for Effective Bottom Funnel Content

19:12 Lashay's Journey to Building Bottom Funnel Expertise

24:34 Transitioning from In-House to Consulting

28:06 The Benefits of Leaving In-House for Consulting

31:57 "The Pain of Staying the Same" Mindset

36:41 Building Momentum with "Micro Action, Macro Patience"

40:32 What's Next for Lashay and Where to Find Her

Show Notes:

Lashay on LinkedIn

Rob Kaminsky and Anthony Pieri's Product Marketing Content

Exit 5 Podcast Episode featuring Lashay Lewis

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Is your win-loss data just expensive fiction written by your sales team? In this episode, Ryan Sorley (ex-Forrester, ex-Gartner) joins the crew to expose the hard truth about buyer research. From ripped jeans costing deals to bootstrapping a business while juggling kids and payroll, Ryan doesn't hold back on his journey from corporate misery to specialized success. Oh, and we uncovered the stupidly simple reason most product marketers fail at research. Tune in for honest laughs, real insights, and maybe a wake-up call about your "data."

In this episode, we're covering:

• How to run a solo business when you have kids and bills to pay

• The "Taylor Swift Squad" theory of business growth

• Why most buyer research is just wishful thinking with fancy graphs

• The Powder Blue Taurus Moment: when Ryan knew corporate life was BS

• Why writing a business plan is a complete waste of time for solopreneurs

• How Ryan went from 0 to 100 clients with ZERO salespeople

Check out his new book Blindspots on Amazon too!

Timestamps:

01:00 Introducing Ryan Sorley, Win-Loss Research Expert

02:36 Are Product Marketers Actually Marketers?

04:15 Ryan's Take on Product Marketing as Research

06:45 The Importance of Intentional Research

10:00 The "Superpower" of Win-Loss Analysis

12:34 The HubSpot Ripped Jeans Story

17:15 Ryan's Entrepreneurial Journey

19:00 The NJ Turnpike Moment: When Ryan Knew Corporate Life Wasn't for Him

21:00 How Ryan Discovered the Win-Loss Opportunity

23:45 Ryan's Transition from Gartner to Entrepreneurship

27:00 What's the Minimum Viable Plan for Going Solo?

30:00 The "Squad Life" Approach to Client Relationships

34:00 The Dark Times: Managing Cash Flow and Contractors

39:00 Specialization vs. Generalization in Consulting

42:45 Ryan's New Book: "Blind Spots" (Launch April 1st)

44:30 Closing Remarks and Farewell

Show Notes:

Ryan's LinkedIn

Blindspots on Amazon

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Is your message testing just throwing random ingredients into a pot and hoping it tastes good? In this no-holds-barred episode, the boys tackle the chaos of message testing and why most PMMs are doing it wrong. From useless A/B tests with tiny sample sizes to executives demanding "just one more tweak," we dive into what actually works. Tune in for laughs, practical frameworks, and why your mom's cooking method isn't a valid messaging strategy. We're covering:

• Only 30% of product marketers have ever actually tested a message (and most of them did it wrong)

• Why A/B testing is the "let's not commit" cop-out of marketing teams

• The one-variable rule: why testing multiple things at once is destroying your results

• The critical difference between message testing and A/B testing that most marketers miss

• How to build a message testing framework that gets leadership buy-in immediately

If you've ever sat through a meeting where someone suggested "Let's A/B test it" for a campaign going to 150 people, this episode will either validate your frustration or completely change how you work. Either way, your next messaging project just got a whole lot more effective.

Timestamps

01:39 Question: How Many PMMs Actually Test Messages?

02:31 Why A/B Testing Is Often the Wrong Approach

04:00 Statistical Significance and Sample Size Problems

05:58 Testing Text vs. Testing Visuals

06:05 Messaging as Strategy vs. Tactical Implementation  

09:01 Differentiating Message Testing from A/B Testing

12:15 The Commitment Problem in Marketing Decision-Making

16:16 How Trade Shows Can Validate Positioning and Messaging

19:45 Message Testing to Define Product Uniqueness

22:00 Eric's Process Misstep: Jumping to Experimentation Too Soon

27:45 The Scientific Method in Message Testing

29:01 The Gumbo Analogy: Why Most Marketing Isn't Replicable

34:15 Isolating Variables in Message Testing

35:36 Building a Strong Hypothesis Framework

38:25 Gab's Message Testing Resources (Message Market Fit)

41:30 The ROI of Message Testing and Business Consequences

44:35 Final Thoughts and Key Takeaways

Show notes:

Victoria Rudi's Messaging Frameworks
Message Market Fit - Gab's resource for message testing frameworks and templates.

Freckle.io - The Clay alternative talked in the example

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