We're Not Marketers

Ever felt like a misfit in product marketing? You’re not alone.

In this episode of We’re Not Marketers, hosts Gab, Zach, and Eric dive deep into a hot topic for PMMs: discovering and honing your unique superpower to stand out in your role. Whether you're a product marketing veteran or new to the field, this conversation is packed with timeless advice, relatable stories, and strategies to help you identify your strengths and position yourself effectively.

What’s Inside This Episode?

• Self-discovery exercises for PMMs: From creating a “win list” to identifying transferable skills.

• Positioning yourself for success: Why knowing your competitive strength is key for landing the right roles.

• Experimentation is key: How trying different PMM functions (like pricing or messaging) can reveal your passions.

• Practical tools: Use energy-mapping techniques to uncover the tasks that fuel your motivation and career growth.

• Standing out in the crowd: Why specializing in a niche or showcasing your work is a game-changer.

• Confidence and mindset: The power of affirmations and self-belief in defining and owning your PMM identity.

Who’s This Episode For?
Startup PMMs and fractional product marketers in B2B SaaS who’re looking to differentiate themselves and feel unignorable in their roles.

Key Takeaway:
Your superpower isn’t just a skill—it’s how you position yourself and align your passions with business needs. Stop blending in and start standing out by owning your unique value.

Show Notes

00:00 Introduction and Welcome

01:01 Casual Banter and Golf Talk

01:49 Understanding Your PMM Role

02:26 Personal Experiences in Product Marketing

03:33 Finding Your Competitive Strength

04:48 Exploring Different Aspects of PMM

06:57 Overcoming Imposter Syndrome

07:51 Leveraging Your Superpower

09:34 Practical Advice for PMMs

14:29 The Importance of Confidence

23:24 Final Thoughts and Conclusion

Sponsor

Zach Messler with Clarityrules.com

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In this next episode of We're Not Marketers, hosts Zach, Gab, and Eric are joined by Rahim Kaba, Director and Research Analyst at Gartner, to dive into the evolving role of PMM in B2B SaaS. With over 20 years of experience in the field, Rahim shares data with perspective on the function and challenges that come with it today. Key highlights include:

- The Core Identity of Product Marketers: Rahim argues that product marketers are unequivocally marketers, backed by data showing 81% of PMMs report directly to marketing teams.

- Shifting Expectations and Responsibilities: Learn about the changing scope of product marketing, from content creation roles to strategic leaders in positioning and storytelling.

- Strategic Insights on Launch Cadences: Rahim discusses the importance of aligning release cycles with customer adoption capabilities and how to avoid launch fatigue.

- Must-Have PMM Skills: Emphasis on the significance of data literacy, with tips on upskilling and resources like the Data Literacy Project.

- Build Internal Influence: Best practices to clarify PMM roles through charters and RACI models to strengthen cross-functional alignment.

The conversation also touches on the growth of fractional product marketers, the implications of market trends, and advice on how PMMs can elevate their strategic influence internally.

Whether you're a seasoned product marketer or just starting out, this episode is packed with practical tips, valuable research insights (umm Gartner, bro), and a clear roadmap to reinforce PMM’s impact in any company. Tune in for a ‘deep-sea of research’ dive of how PMMs can thrive in today's competitive landscape.

Time Stamps 

02:11 Rahim's Background and Role at Gartner

03:15 Are Product Marketers Really Marketers?

07:06 Challenges and Misunderstandings in Product Marketing

09:51 The Evolution of Product Marketing

14:56 Data Literacy in Product Marketing

18:12 Impact of Layoffs on Product Marketing

21:04 Rise of Fractional Product Marketers

23:46 Specialization in Product Marketing

25:28 The Appeal of Fractional Product Marketing

27:06 Challenges and Strategies for PMMs

28:49 Effective Product Launch Strategies

33:22 Balancing Product and Marketing Priorities

34:44 The Role of PMMs in Organizations

38:06 Building a Product Marketing Charter

44:16 Using Gartner Insights

Where more to follow and connect with Rahim?

Rahim Kaba LinkedIn 

Gartner Time to Value Podcast

Gartner for High Tech LinkedIn Page

Free Gartner Webinar Recording: How Growth Organizations Source Critical PMM Skills

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The role of the PMM is evolving and requires us to always adapt and be knowledgeable on new tech and initiatives. It can make a difference between a product marketer who is valuable and stack influence vs. someone who’s on the layoff list.

Someone who keeps pushing the limit of practical product marketing and leveraging projects short-cuts to ship more is Jess Petrella, Senior Product Marketing Manager (PMM) at ZayZoon, and she has an amazing take on becoming an efficient PMM.

We discussed how AI can enhance the PMMs' capacity to analyze data and analyze opportunities, the importance of proximity with product teams, and the skills necessary for PMMs to co-create product roadmaps. 

The episode provides practical advice for aspiring PMMs and reflects on how to navigate better the challenges of the profession, from someone who just built the function from scratch. We talk about:

• Use AI for quicker data synthesis and opportunity analysis

• Build advocacy skills to align with other teams

• Strengthen connections with product teams

• Collaborate on roadmaps to grow your role

• Gain skills to impact product decisions

• Simplify tasks with AI to increase output
  

Discover how you can build more influence as a PMM with the help of AI! 

Timespan:

01:04 Discussing Product Marketing and Launches

02:16 Are Product Marketers Actually Marketers?

03:15 The Evolution of Product Marketing

05:21 Building Influence as a Product Marketer

17:43 Leveraging AI in Product Marketing

28:53 Conclusion and Farewell

Show Notes:

Jess LinkedIn

https://pmmops.com/

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The worst thing about being a PMM is not having to launch a new product within 2 weeks, or drowning in sales decks. It’s all sharing the same trauma that people don’t understand product marketing. 

We’ve seen a lot of movement on LinkedIn about PMMs sharing horror stories. Michele Nieberding even did a talk about it at PMA Boston.

And we were lucky enough to have her sharing them on the pod, just in time for Halloween 💀 our FAVORITE HOLIDAY 🎃

Michele, the director of product marketing at MetaRouter, spent almost a decade in product marketing and loves Halloween, we’re talking about:

• Combining new brands, products and segments

• Freemium to Screemium

• Failed launches and disastrous rebrands

• Product enforcement gone wrong

• A bunch of jokes and fun things
  

Start feeling better about your role and discover horror stories for PMMs that would scare even ghouls and ghosts!

Timespan:

00:00 Introduction and Sponsorship

01:02 Meet the Hosts

01:28 Special Guest Introduction

03:20 PMM Horror Stories: Introduction

06:42 Horror Story 1: The Freemium Nightmare

14:01 Horror Story 2: Enforcing Usage Limits

19:30 The Sleep Sack Nightmare

21:10 Customer Perspective on Luxury Baby Products

22:03 Manufacturing and Packaging Woes

24:26 A College Business Competition Fiasco

25:54 The Real Estate App Pricing Disaster

30:44 The Rebranding and Product Launch Debacle

37:29 Closing Thoughts and Farewell

Show Notes:

Michele’s LinkedIn

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For PMMs, it can be difficult to have a good relationship with sales, especially in new roles. 

Win-loss analysis and interviews can be a good win when you see that close-lost column piling up on the CRM pipeline.

But how can you take another responsibility on your to-do when you’re already swamped?

Matthew Reeves, CEO and co-founder of GoldPan, runs a win-loss analysis agency. In this episode, he’s showing us:

• How to build rapport with sales teams

• The complexities of positioning and messaging

• Why you need both wins and losses for good research. 

• Why information overload kill sales. 

• The nuanced value of churn analysis. 

Hear also the very unique take of Matthew on if product marketers are marketers, we can’t say we heard this one yet!

Timespan:

00:00 Welcome to We're Not Marketers

00:19 Introducing Matthew Reeves, CEO of GoldPan

01:37 Are Product Marketers Actually Marketers?

02:49 The Evolution and Challenges of Marketing

12:21 The Importance of Win-Loss Analysis

21:31 Building Rapport Between Product Marketers and Sales

34:25 Sales Missteps and Buyer Uncertainty

34:59 Understanding Product Assessment

35:34 The Role of Risk and Values in Buying Decisions

37:01 Challenges in Product Marketing

37:48 The Importance of Win-Loss Analysis

38:39 Switching Costs and Product Marketing

40:34 Effective Sales Messaging

43:14 The Buyer-Seller Dynamic

50:06 The Value of Churn Analysis

54:29 Bad Sales Experiences

01:01:33 Closing Thoughts and Future Plans

Show Notes:

Matthew’s LinkedIn

Goldpan website

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Get ready for some real talk about positioning! In this episode, we sit down with the queen of positioning herself, April Dunford. If your startup’s positioning feels a little “mushy” or your product is getting compared to everyone under the sun, this episode is for you. April shares her no-nonsense approach to tightening up your message and teaching your CEO why positioning isn’t just some abstract marketing concept—it’s the foundation of your success. Whether you’re battling internal buy-in or figuring out how to stand out in a crowded market, April’s got the answers (plus a few hilarious takes on toilets and camping). Here’s what you’re missing, by not listening:

• Is your product positioning “mushy”? Learn why vague messaging is killing your pitch—and how to fix it.

• The secret weapon for startups: April’s advice on involving sales and product teams in positioning.

• Why “actionable insights” aren’t really actionable: How to cut the jargon and speak your customer's language.

• CEO thinks their product positioning is fine? April’s roadmap to making them see the problem—without calling their baby ugly.

• Positioning vs. features: Why selling value over features is your ultimate key to success.

  
  

Show Notes
00:00 Introduction and Sponsor Message

01:05 Meet the Hosts and Guest Introduction

01:39 April Dunford on Product Marketing

03:25 The Role of Positioning in Startups

09:17 Building Influence as a Product Marketer

23:27 Fun and Games with April Dunford

34:26 Discovering Catan: A Board Game Revelation

35:00 Building Dreams: Choosing the Perfect Cottage Location

36:10 Torture Chamber Round: Birds or Stars?

38:42 The Cardinal Sins of Product Positioning

43:33 Selling Platforms: Value Over Features

01:00:17 The Art of Persuasive Writing in Marketing

01:04:52 Career Advice for Product Marketers

01:11:01 Engage with April Dunford: Books, Podcasts, and More

Resources

April Dunford LinkedIn

April Dunford website

April Dunford’s Positioning Podcast 

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Dealing with the chaos of being a PMM while trying to balance the rest of your life? You’re not alone.

In this candid episode of We're Not Marketers, Zach, Eric, and Gab dive into the realities of managing life as a Product Marketing Manager, whether you're in-house or fractional. From overwhelming work expectations to the struggle of balancing personal life, the team discusses how to protect your mental health while handling an always-on work culture. They share personal stories, tips like setting boundaries, removing work apps from phones, and practical advice on how to deal with burnout. If you're feeling the strain of managing your career, relationships, and self-care, this episode is a must-listen.

Key takeaways include:

• Strategies to create separation between work and personal time (e.g., daily rituals, setting boundaries, Slack detox).

• Real-talk about burnout and why mental health shouldn’t be just a “corporate benefit.”

• Practical tips on saying “no” to unrealistic requests and protecting your productivity.

• How fractional PMMs handle the pressure of multiple clients while in-house PMMs navigate endless internal demands.

Tune in to hear the team's perspectives on how to reclaim balance and stay sane as a PMM.

Show Notes

00:00 Introduction and Sponsor Message

01:02 The Challenges of Being a Product Marketer

02:22 In-House vs. Fractional Product Marketing

04:45 Balancing Work and Personal Life

07:41 Setting Boundaries and Mental Health

22:02 Productivity Tips and Techniques

30:50 Conclusion and Final Thoughts

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In this episode of We're Not Marketers, we sit down with the one and only Jeff Chase, Director of Brand and Product Marketing at Vitally.io, who drops a major hot take—product marketers aren’t marketers (wait, what?!). But Jeff doesn’t stop there. He believes PMMs are the future leaders of marketing, and he’s got the experience and insights to back it up.

Tune in as we dive into the evolving role of product marketers in B2B SaaS. From positioning and messaging to why PMMs have the potential to become CMOs, Jeff shares his journey and unique approach to blending product and brand marketing. We also tackle the age-old question: how can PMMs build better relationships with their brand teams?

Whether you're a PMM ready to shake up your organization or just curious about where this role is headed, this convo is one you don’t want to miss:

• PMMs vs. Marketers: Jeff’s surprising take on why product marketers aren’t really marketers.

• The Future CMO Pipeline: Why Jeff believes product marketers are primed to become the next generation of marketing leaders.

• The Art of Brand Storytelling: How product marketers can elevate their influence by mastering brand marketing collaboration.

• Hiring Hacks: Jeff’s refreshing approach to recruitment, and why he believes hiring managers have a deeper responsibility than you think.

• Copycats Beware: How to stay a step ahead of competitors who love to swipe your messaging.
  

Time Stamps 

00:00 Introduction and Host Intros

00:56 Special Guest Introduction: Jeff

02:02 Are Product Marketers Actually Marketers?

04:35 The Future of Product Marketing

08:55 Building Cross-Functional Relationships

10:48 The Role of Brand Marketing

14:30 Hiring and Leadership Insights

36:21 Dealing with Competitors

43:46 Conclusion and Sign-Off

Show Notes

Jeff Chase LinkedIn Profile

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In this episode, Jarod Greene, CMO of Vivint, shares his journey from teaching middle school math to Gartner analyst to CMO today and offers actionable advice for PMMs struggling to gain recognition. Learn how to use research, co-create with sales, and communicate your value to drive impactful product marketing strategies in your workplace.

When you let Jarod cook (#lethimcook) and you’re gonna get…

• How teaching 7th graders prepared Jarod to lead B2B marketing strategy—and why it’s still the hardest job he’s ever done.

• The “magician” role of product marketers: Why being a chameleon is the ultimate superpower in your company (and how to harness it).

• Co-create with sales? Yes, please. The surprising reason your best sales reps should help write your next piece of content.

• Forget the committee—Jarod’s trick to stop internal fights over messaging using the one thing no one can argue with: Data.

• “I had no idea what PMM was 10 years ago” – how Jarod went from confused to CMO and why it could be your career roadmap too.

• Content without context = chaos. Jarod’s formula for why great content flops (and how to make it land every time).

• How to manage up, down, and sideways: Jarod’s guide to becoming a leader before you even get the title.

Time Stamps 

00:00 We're Not Marketers (S3) - Jarod Greene

01:00 Welcome to Season Three!

01:46 Introducing Jarod Greene

03:01 From Teaching to Marketing

05:15 The Role of Product Marketers

07:15 Becoming a CMO

18:03 Content with Context

22:19 Co-Creating with Sales

28:20 The Content Production Dilemma

29:07 The Importance of Research in Marketing

30:27 Primary vs. Secondary Research

31:22 Leveraging Data for Decision Making

39:43 Integrating AI in Marketing Strategies

43:34 The Reality of Product Market Fit

51:21 Upcoming Projects and Events

Show Notes

Jarod Greene LinkedIn Profile

UNXPCTD - Explore way AI is revolutionizing B2B Sales 

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There are many different flavors of product marketers, whether you’re in-house or fractional like our host, you need to be aware of your special sauce 😉

The product marketing function is becoming more and more nuanced, so you need to know what you are good at and why these special skills matter with your expertise and work environment.

Megan Pratt went from senior PMM to director of PMM and was one step away from a VP position before she decided to go full-time as a fractional PMM.

Today, she’s coaching product marketers and helping companies as a fractional PMM. In this episode, we’re covering:

• Misconceptions we have about going fractional

• How to find your secret sauce as a PMM

• How to educate prospects on product marketing

• Learn how to say no without saying no

• Building your pipeline as a consultant

• Common gaps in product marketing

So join us, whether you’re a fractional, or in-house hire, and learn about a true expert on how to say no.

Timespan:

00:00 Introduction and Hosts' Banter

01:14 Introducing Special Guest Megan Pratt

06:09 The Value of Product Marketing

21:26 Personal Insights and Career Growth

26:25 Transition to Fractional Work

26:31 Challenges and Misconceptions of Going Fractional

30:48 Messaging Best Practices

31:13 Clarifying Roles and Responsibilities

32:23 Setting Boundaries in Freelancing

33:42 The Importance of Saying No

36:34 Building a Freelance Pipeline

50:56 Common Gaps in Product Marketing

59:42 Conclusion and Final Thoughts

Show Notes:

Product Marketing House

Megan’s LinkedIn

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