We're Not Marketers

We have a rule here: Never get the same guest twice. Well, we’ve just broken it now because we’re getting Michele Nieberding for the 2nd time!

The Director of Product Marketing at Metarouter, the Martech queen and two-time Top 100 PMM, returns to challenge one of the biggest assumptions about product marketers. We dive into the blurred lines between PMM, marketing, and product teams, why some org structures set PMMs up for failure, and how AI is reshaping the role. Plus, Michele drops tactical insights on working with sales, disqualifying bad leads, and scaling impact as a solo PMM. We’ve talked about: 

✅ The launch hamster wheel—why PMMs get stuck in product launches & how to escape it
✅ The red flags: If your PMM team reports to the CRO, run! 🏃‍♀️
✅ How to work with sales without becoming a glorified content marketer
✅ The anti-ICP approach: Why knowing who isn’t a fit is just as important
✅ Feature matrix vs. value selling: When does sales actually need that comparison chart?
✅ AI for PMMs—the right (and wrong) ways to use AI for messaging, content, and research
✅ The rise of VP of Product Marketing—finally, a real PMM career path?
✅ The troubling trend: Why “Director of Growth & PMM” is a dangerous hybrid role
✅ Buffets, bad dating analogies, and how to disqualify bad fits faster than a bad Tinder date

🔊 Stay tuned for Michele’s must-know AI hacks, plus the biggest PMM trends shaping 2024!

Timespan:

00:59 Introducing the Guest

02:36 Are Product Marketers Actually Marketers?

04:15 Sales and Marketing Insights

09:45 AI in Product Marketing

20:45 Working with Sales Teams

25:13 Navigating Competitor Analysis

26:19 Disqualifying Bad Fits

28:16 Sales Reps and Disqualification

29:01 The Buffet Analogy

33:27 The Anti-ICP Concept

36:21 Sales and Marketing Alignment

42:40 Future Trends in Product Marketing

48:04 Closing Remarks and Farewell

Shownotes:

Follow Michelle on LinkedIn

Gong.io (for sales call analysis)

Perplexity AI (for deep research)

Notebook LM (Google AI-powered research tool)

Gamma AI (Instant slide deck generator)

BuyWords (on-demand copywriting agency)

Keyplay’s ICP Transition Gap

AgentGPT (AI agents for research & automation)

Prompt Genie (Optimized AI prompting tool)

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Product marketers with a sales background often feel like they have a superpower. The opposite is even truer.

Kyle Coleman, CMO at Copy.ai, says yes—and he’s got the career journey to back it up. From SDR to marketing exec, Kyle breaks down why sales and marketing are inseparable, how storytelling (not the best product) wins markets, and why staying close to revenue is the key to career growth. Plus, he shares how he personally closed $350K in outbound sales while leading marketing.

✅ Why storytelling—not features—wins markets (just ask Salesforce).

✅ The biggest mistake most product marketers make when trying to prove their impact.

✅ Sales and marketing: two sides of the same coin or completely different beasts?

✅ Why the best PMMs own the revenue conversation.

✅ The "ivory tower" trap that kills product marketing impact.

✅ Kyle’s secret to getting buy-in from execs for category creation (hint: 75+ interviews).

✅ A real-life sales deck fail—and how Kyle fixed it by actually selling.

✅ The #1 piece of career advice for product marketers who want to be CMOs.

If you're a product marketer aiming for the CMO seat, this episode is your playbook. 🔥

Timespan:

00:00 Introduction to the Podcast

00:16 Meet the Hosts

00:56 Introducing the Guest: Kyle Coleman

01:53 Are Product Marketers Actually Marketers?

04:18 Sales and Marketing: A Unified Perspective

05:40 Kyle's Journey from SDR to CMO

07:42 The Importance of Staying Close to Revenue

12:10 Internal Buy-In and Category Definition

15:11 Advice for Aspiring CMOs

19:12 Using AI in Marketing Strategy

21:28 AI in Sales Enablement

22:40 Impact Over Quantity

23:57 Real-World Example: Transitioning to Enterprise

25:49 Hiring the Right Product Marketer

30:29 Marketing as a Leadership Function

34:51 Advice for Product Marketing Candidates

39:06 Kyle's Side Projects and Copy AI

41:45 Final Thoughts and Career Growth Tips

Show Notes:

Kyle's LinkedIn Profile

Copy.ai

Christopher Lochhead’s "Position Yourself or Be Positioned"

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We’re kicking off season 4 with Chanel Chambers, VP of Marketing at Lakeside Software. As a product marketing leader and past music teacher, she’s joining us to break down the role of product marketing, why it's central to a business’s success, and how PMMs can increase their influence. From jazz improvisation to AI-driven business strategies, Chanel shares fresh insights on how product marketers can start treating their role with a business holistic approach and how to create credibility internally AND externally. We’re talked about:

🔹 Why product marketers sit at the center of the entire marketing mix

🔹 How PMMs can transition from order takers to strategic influencers

🔹 The “Land, Expand, Retain” framework every PMM needs to master

🔹 What jazz musicians and product marketers have in common

🔹 How to build credibility and navigate internal conflicts with confidence

🔹 Why business fluency is the key to PMM influence (hint: know your numbers!)

🔹 The difference between activities vs. outcomes—and why PMMs should focus on the latter

🔹 Why AI isn’t changing what businesses need, just how they get there

🔹 The biggest mistake PMMs make when presenting ICP and personas

Listen now to get a fresh perspective on how to elevate your role and make a real impact as a PMM! 🎧

Timespan:

00:00 Introduction and Host Introductions

00:55 Special Guest Introduction: Chanel Chambers

02:36 Are Product Marketers Actually Marketers?

03:33 The Role of Product Marketing in Business

09:52 Frameworks and Problem-Solving in Product Marketing

16:03 Outcome-Based Metrics vs. Activity-Based Metrics

18:37 Navigating Organizational Goals and Stakeholders

23:04 Understanding the Role of Personas

24:24 The Importance of Insights Over Reports

25:50 Practicing Influence as a PMM

26:33 Curiosity and Ambiguity in PMM

34:38 Navigating Internal Conflicts

39:47 Final Thoughts and Farewell

Show Notes:

Chanel LinkedIn

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In this special recap, we dive into what it really means to be a product marketer in the ever-evolving B2B SaaS space—from defining the role to gaining the trust of executives and product teams. Hear first-hand advice on establishing boundaries, shaping product roadmaps, and showcasing your unique value.

Tune in to discover how you can go from feeling misunderstood to being the unignorable voice in your organization.

• Why product marketing often feels misunderstood—and how to change that.

• The “secret sauce” to defining your role so everyone, from sales to CEOs, sees your impact.

• Strategies for sitting in a “neutral” spot on the org chart (and why it’s a dream setup).

• Insider tips for positioning your product before it’s built—so buyers are ready to say “yes.”

• How to set healthy boundaries with tasks that aren’t in your zone of genius.

This episode is featuring episodes clips from Tamara Grominsky, Dave Gerhardt, and April Dunford.

Give it a listen prior to season 4 launching in 2 weeks!

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Product marketing and content marketing—are they allies, or just frenemies in disguise?

In this episode, Devin Reed (ex-Gong, ex-Clari, and host of Read Between the Lines) joins the crew to dish out his hot takes

on the tension between PMMs and content marketers, why most messaging decks collect dust, and the real secret to making content that resonates.

If you’ve ever questioned whether product marketing is actually marketing (or just internal storytelling), this one’s for you.

What You’ll Learn in This Episode:

→ The biggest mistake product marketers make when handing messaging to content teams

→ Why most positioning and messaging decks never make it into real-world content

→ The secret to testing messaging before betting big on a full campaign

→ How to bridge the gap between internal messaging and market-facing storytelling

→ The power of creative freedom—why it’s the ultimate flex in B2B marketing

→ The “two-sentence test” for making sure your messaging actually lands

→ When it’s too candid—how to balance bold positioning with market perception

→ How to write messaging that actually reflects what customers say

Listen now to hear Devin unfiltered take on product marketing, messaging mistakes, and how to win the content game.

Timestamps:

00:00 Introduction and Host Welcome

02:00 Introducing the Special Guest: Devin Reed

04:13 Devin Reed's Insights on Product Marketing

06:00 The Relationship Between Content and Product Marketing

14:51 Testing and Differentiating Marketing Strategies

23:57 Creative Freedom in B2B Marketing

26:23 Writing for Yourself: A Sales Rep's Perspective

26:57 Creating Relatable and Memorable Content

28:12 The Power of Sales Team Collaboration

28:55 The Heat Check: Testing Content Ideas

29:35 Maniacal Focus on Quality Content

29:59 The Importance of Clear and Concise Messaging

31:40 Understanding Your Audience's Language

34:37 Navigating Internal Approval Processes

36:32 Leveraging Customer Insights for Copywriting

43:14 The Creative Process: From Inspiration to Execution

48:34 Final Thoughts and Upcoming Projects

Show Notes:

The Reeder Website

Reed between the lines podcast

Devin’s LinkedIn 

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Ever wondered how a band of misfits turned shared frustrations into a thriving podcast? In this episode, we’re sharing our origin story, revealing how they met, bonded over common pain points in the product marketing world, and turned candid conversations into a platform that challenges industry norms. 

Packed with spicy takes, behind-the-scenes laughs, and actionable advice, this episode is a testament to the power of finding your people and staying true to your vision. 

• How PMM frustrations sparked the idea for the We're Not Marketers podcast.

• How we’ve turned banter and venting sessions into a thriving community.

• The secret to developing a contrarian yet authentic point of view.

• Why we stand out in a crowded product marketing landscape.

• Message testing and building a relatable brand voice.

Tune in to discover why authenticity, fun, and a unique point of view are the ultimate game-changers.

Timestamps:

00:00 Introduction and Episode Context

01:32 Meet the Hosts

01:59 How We Met and Formed the Podcast

02:34 The Organic Evolution of the Show

04:13 Challenges and Dynamics of Product Marketing

06:52 Developing a Unique Point of View

09:46 Contrarian Perspectives and Testing Ideas

12:57 The Role and Identity of Product Marketers

21:11 Positioning and Future of Product Marketing

24:23 Tattoos in the Workplace: A Changing Perspective

25:09 Belief in Our Mission: Every Day Commitment

26:08 Navigating Skepticism and Valuing Disagreement

26:51 Embracing Learning and Marketing Communities

30:04 The Freedom of Creative Expression

35:03 The Importance of Fun in Work

40:40 Stoic Wisdom and Final Thoughts

Show Notes:

Navattic - State of the Interactive Demo 2025

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Are you ready to take the leap into fractional work?

In this episode of We're Not Marketers, Gab, Zach, and Eric dive into the realities, challenges, and triumphs of betting on yourself as a fractional Product Marketing Manager (PMM). They explore:

• The mindset shifts required to succeed in a fractional career.

• Lessons learned from building your niche and refining your offer.

• How confidence, community, and obsession fuel success.

• Why intentional trade-offs and clear goals are the foundation for thriving as a solopreneur.

From navigating imposter syndrome to celebrating small wins, this conversation is packed with practical tips and inspiring insights to help you find your footing and take control of your career.

Whether you're a PMM considering the fractional path or a solopreneur looking to sharpen your approach, this episode offers the advice and encouragement you need to bet on yourself and thrive.

🎧 Tune in now and discover why "no one is coming to save you"—and how that's the best news yet.

Show Notes

00:00 Introduction and Welcome

00:27 Betting on Yourself: The Fractional Route

01:15 Personal Experiences and Challenges

02:42 Unlearning In-House Habits

04:29 The Importance of Confidence and Mindset

09:36 Sales and Client Management

17:35 Intentional Trade-Offs and Financial Stability

30:40 Evolving Your Process and Building Confidence

31:34 Navigating Isolation and Finding Support

33:24 Balancing Work and Personal Life

34:43 Reframing Challenges and Embracing Growth

39:05 The Power of Community and Shared Experiences

43:48 Crafting Your Unique Offer and Building Foundations

47:42 Obsession and Dedication: The Path to Success

51:50 Final Thoughts and Reflections

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The more knowledge you have on product marketing, the better you can be an expert and have more impact on your job. 

Today, we’re having Peter Kortvel, a senior product marketer at Scandit and the creator of the product marketing newsletter (with 1700+ subscribers).

Peter has worked as a video consultant, in startups, cofounded an IoT startup and today shows us what great product marketing should look like.

He has 13+ years of experience as a marketer and believes in getting things done (we appreciate it too!).

In this episode, we’re covering:

• The importance of understanding your target audience

• Why research can help you communicate your product value

• The difference between storytelling and the format

• Challenges of PMMs and if they are marketers

• Common startup mistakes in messaging

• The best time to drink beer
  

So grab a beer with us and let’s chat product marketing 🫡

Timespan:

00:00 Welcome to We're Not Marketers

00:55 Meet Our Guest: Peter Kortvel

01:55 Diving into Product Marketing

09:27 The Role of Research in Marketing

14:19 Challenges in Startup Marketing

23:49 The Role of Storytelling in Video Content

24:38 Challenges of Storytelling in B2B Marketing

26:08 Understanding the Audience's Problem

28:18 The Importance of Clear Communication

31:38 Creating Aha Moments in Marketing

36:25 The Concept of Visual Cold Calling

46:24 Conclusion and Final Thoughts

Show Notes:

Peter’s LinkedIn

Product Marketing Newsletter

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Making your mark as a founding PMM is very difficult, especially when the role itself has an identity crisis.

That’s why we’ve asked three product marketers from our audience to join us to talk about their experience, and how to prove themselves valuable (especially when everything wants you to fail)

This week, we’re inviting Shoshana Kordova, Aphrodite Brinsmead, and Elliott Rayner to discuss the multifaceted role of product marketing

In this special episode, we’re covering:

• The significance of clear messaging

• AI's potential for PMMs

• The inherent identity crisis within our field

• Strategies for establishing effective product marketing

• The necessity of a 30-60-90 day plan. 

This episode was made special because we’ve asked our listeners to join us and they accepted, so please, give us feedback and send us messages! We read everything 👀 (except if it’s outbound requests, then Eric will ban you immediately)

Timestamps:

01:39 Introducing the Guests

05:01 Are Product Marketers Actually Marketers?

07:34 AI in Product Marketing

18:56 The Identity Crisis of Product Marketing

23:14 Rebranding Product Marketing: A Controversial Move

23:45 The Role of Founders in Early Product Marketing

24:36 The Importance of Product Marketing in Today's Market

26:18 Explaining Product Marketing Through Its Absence

27:06 Challenges of Being a Founding Product Marketing Manager

32:50 The 30-60-90 Day Plan Debate

38:00 Selling the Value of Product Marketing

46:02 Final Thoughts and Where to Find More

Show Notes:

Elliott LinkedIn

Aphrodite LinkedIn

Shoshana LinkedIn 

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Episode Description:

In this episode of We're Not Marketers, we’re diving deep with Rob Kaminski, one-half of the dynamic duo behind Fletch PMM. Rob’s journey is a masterclass in transitioning from a generalist’s toolkit to a hyper-focused niche, unlocking unparalleled expertise along the way.

Together, we explore the unconventional path that led Rob and his co-founder Anthony Pierri to redefine positioning and messaging for early-stage SaaS companies, focusing on the all-important homepage.

What you’ll learn:

• How to start building a market map and niche down effectively.

• Why being “too broad” can sabotage your positioning (and how to avoid it).

• The surprising power of debating with a partner to spark innovation.

• Why specificity is the ultimate superpower in product marketing.

• A behind-the-scenes look at Fletch’s process of refining their service and attracting their first 25 clients.

• And, hear Rob’s take on ‘how to position a platform’, specifically the same Q we asked April Dunford last month. Who’s answer will you like more: Rob’s or April’s? 

Whether you’re a product marketer looking to sharpen your craft, an aspiring fractional PMM, or just curious about what it takes to truly differentiate yourself in a crowded market, this episode is packed with insights, inspiration, and actionable advice.

Tune in to hear Rob’s honest, no-holds-barred take on finding your focus and making it count.

Show Notes 

01:34 Introducing the Special Guest: Rob Kaminski

02:32 Rob Kaminski's Career Journey

04:36 The Role of Product Marketers

06:25 Challenges in Product Marketing

07:50 Importance of Execution in Strategy

10:41 Navigating Internal Influence

13:46 The Value of External Perspectives

17:58 Building a Fractional Service

19:57 Experimentation and Iteration

24:14 Starting and Scaling a Fractional Business

34:49 Cold Outreach and Building Expertise

35:47 The Power of Niching Down

37:51 Partnership Dynamics and Decision Making

41:57 Creating Forcing Functions and Urgency

43:51 The Importance of Specialization

50:56 Positioning and Messaging Strategies

59:42 Closing Thoughts and Farewells

How to connect with Rob

Rob Kaminski LinkedIn Profile 

FletchPMM website

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