In this enlightening conversation, Latham Thomas, a renowned women's health expert and founder of MamaGlow, shares her journey into maternal health, emphasizing the importance of self-care, listening to one's body, and the transformative power of birth. She discusses her own birth experience, the founding of MamaGlow, and the need for a supportive community for birthing individuals. Latham advocates for a shift in how we approach motherhood and maternal care, focusing on empowerment, education, and the sacredness of the birthing process.
Takeaways
Listening to your body is crucial for well-being.
Self-care is essential for successful fertility journeys.
The birth experience can be transformative and transcendent.
Empowerment in motherhood comes from education and support.
The maternal health crisis requires systemic change.
Creating a supportive community is vital for birthing individuals.
Transcendence in birth should be celebrated, not just survival.
The importance of slowing down and focusing on one thing.
Children motivate us to get our lives together.
Healing generational trauma is part of parenting.
Transcript
L'Oreal (00:01.183)
All right, well, welcome to the podcast. Thanks so much for joining Working Moms Club.
Latham Thomas (00:06.306)
Thanks for having me, L'Oreal.
L'Oreal (00:08.949)
Yay, I'm so excited as we talked before and I have it right here on your glow. This was your first book, right? That came out. That was the second one? Was the first one mama glow?
Latham Thomas (00:16.334)
That was my second book. Yes, Mama Glow was like 2012 and then Own Your Glow was 2017. So those are like vintage baddies.
L'Oreal (00:23.489)
Okay.
L'Oreal (00:28.691)
Yeah, well, I read them in reverse order because, yeah, my seasons of life, the mama part came later. But Own Your Glow was very instrumental because I remember this section, you had worked with this woman, I think she was a lawyer, some kind of corporate career and it was not serving her. And you talked about the chakras and the sacral one as well and the blockage and that really
Latham Thomas (00:44.632)
Hmm
L'Oreal (00:57.357)
touched me on a spiritual level. could read it was a nonprofit comms, but similar. Can you just share more about that work and how you got into it and the correlation between the chakras and your reproduction as well?
Latham Thomas (01:12.844)
Yeah, so first of all, thank you so much for having me and for allowing me to be in this space. And so in my background, which is in women's health, I really like to focus on and introduce people through education, really accessible education, right to.
L'Oreal (01:18.828)
Yes!
Latham Thomas (01:37.388)
an invitation to come home to their bodies. And through that, understanding systems that support our optimal function, but also what that means as we live a life, right? Because there's one thing to say like, you should eat this, and you should be doing this for your body. And we all internalize.
messaging and beliefs around that, but like how do you actually apply it? And so a lot of what I've done over the years, whether it's with people who are on their fertility journey, pregnancy or postpartum, or folks who are in the workforce, really thinking about like how to reclaim their bodies and start to listen is introduce them to some of the ancient technologies that we have that come from different medicine disciplines.
including Ayurveda, which is where we look at the chakra system, which is essentially the major energy systems that are also correlated with our endocrine organs. And so the endocrine producing organs are organs that produce hormones. And those hormones obviously are really critical in how they interact with, but also how they
a message, you know, signals to different aspects of the body to play out different processes, right? And so when we think about creativity, which sits inside of our siege or sort of the root or base chakra, we're talking about our reproductive organs, we are talking about organs that are correlated with our creativity and not just created force by way of making a baby because we know we can do that, right?
But not always are we using like the uterus as an organ for producing offspring. Many of us may never make children, but also have this area of the body that does signal and represent creative life force energy. And so that creative force can be utilized to
L'Oreal (03:38.977)
Mm-hmm.
Latham Thomas (03:56.81)
allow yourself to create other things. And so it could be a business, a screenplay. could be a new idea. It can be a budding relationship. It can be a new aspect of yourself, right? And so we can use that force and that energy to propel ourselves and also to kind of ground in, you know,
really a philosophical way of seeing the world. And so I use that as a way to, I know in the book specifically, I use it as a way to talk about how we can tap into and connect to our bodies, reconnect to our bodies in ways that.
we are taught not to, right? Because most of what we learn culturally is to turn away from our bodies, right? And so that's the messaging we get every day. And what I'm always inviting people back to is returning home. And if some, for some of us, our body is not.
L'Oreal (04:40.279)
Mm-hmm.
L'Oreal (04:44.673)
Yes.
Latham Thomas (04:55.314)
a safe place, we have to make it one, right? We have to get into right relationship with our bodies where when the invitation to come home feels good, right? And that self-discovery is one where you feel...
L'Oreal (05:00.684)
Yes.
Latham Thomas (05:13.122)
you feel excited to take that journey into learning more about yourself and your intimate topography and your external landscape, right? And you know, when you feel the contours of your body, but then also your internal landscape, like what makes up sort of like the things that are happening inside of your body. And so, yeah, that's what I'm always sort of contemplating when I'm talking to people about this discovery and using systems, right? That exists and that also help people to understand and anchor some of
L'Oreal (05:14.839)
Mm-hmm.
Latham Thomas (05:43.038)
this, some of these ideas.
L'Oreal (05:46.091)
Yeah, it was a very profound section because I was actually on my second or third reading of the book and it was the end of 2020 as was in this career that wasn't really fulfilling my creative pursuits. I love writing, born to be a writer, was working on this book, not getting anywhere. Also in the midst of a very arduous IVF journey, we did multiple cycles and I remember reading that.
and turning to my husband and I'm all into the woo woo. Like I love Jesus, but I'm also an astrology girl. And I was like, hey, I think the reason that this isn't working is because I'm not doing what I'm supposed to be doing. I'm not living into that creative energy. And so my chakras are blocked. And he's like, what are you talking about? But I quit the job. And then the, not the immediate cycle we did, but the second one after that.
Latham Thomas (06:34.093)
Yeah.
L'Oreal (06:41.045)
is the one that resulted in our daughter. And I feel like there's a correlation. And you explained it so beautifully, that connection. Yeah.
Latham Thomas (06:47.246)
Absolutely. Yeah. And that letting go too, right? Like that choosing yourself and saying like,
L'Oreal (06:52.961)
Yes.
Latham Thomas (06:55.128)
I have the permission to slow down and to lean into this process. And I think that so many of us don't do that, right? Like I'll talk to people and I've worked with people who are on their fertility journeys. And one of the things I see that's a point of resistance will be around modulating ones like daily practices, the activities, and then some of the habits, right? And so like staying up super late and getting on planes constantly and like not sitting down, I'm like,
L'Oreal (07:16.915)
Mm-hmm.
Latham Thomas (07:25.072)
you going to have a retrieval? know, maybe how are you going to have time also for a full cycle? You can't even prioritize yourself, right? And so, but it's not just, you know, doing all the things that need to be done to have a successful cycle, right? Cause there are things you must do, right? And there is, it's down to a science as we know.
L'Oreal (07:28.459)
Right. Yes.
L'Oreal (07:41.377)
Mm-hmm.
Latham Thomas (07:44.523)
But there's also things that we don't do that help us to achieve. And what that looks like, you know, for many of us is it's looking at like some of the lifestyle patterns that we've fallen into that really are.
destructive to not only our well-being, but also to the goals that we may have long term, like starting a family. so like chipping away at the chronic stress, right, that many of us carry is critical in actually being able to achieve pregnancy, right? Because some people can actually get pregnant, but maybe not stay pregnant because, hormonally speaking, right,
We may have adjustments in hormones like progesterone, which is literally progestate. It's meant to keep us pregnant. If you have higher cortisol levels, which is a precursor to...
L'Oreal (08:40.255)
Mm-hmm.
Latham Thomas (08:48.386)
progesterone, then you'll actually have an out of balance amount of stress hormones cycling through your bloodstream, which means that it's harder to maintain the pregnancy. And for many people, they lose the pregnancy. And so we need to really think about before, and if we have the ability to do so, not all of us do, right? Sometimes a pregnancy just comes and we have babies that were not planned for,
L'Oreal (09:04.109)
Mm-hmm.
Latham Thomas (09:18.33)
for this happens all the time. However, when we are planning for it, right, when we have the opportunity to do so, part of the plan needs to include also prioritizing our wellbeing, right, emotional wellbeing, your spiritual wellbeing, obviously physical we think about so much, but we don't think about mental exertion. We don't think about toxic stress. We don't think about overwork, right, as symptomatic of some of the experiences that we have that are connected
L'Oreal (09:18.636)
Mm-hmm.
L'Oreal (09:30.668)
Yes.
L'Oreal (09:36.471)
Mm-hmm.
Latham Thomas (09:48.26)
to malfunction or connected to dysfunction or discomfort that comes through the body. And the signals that the body gives us is information. And so I always want to connect back to that, like the listening that we can develop at any time. We can just decide, OK, I'm a listener now. You can start to listen to your body. And
L'Oreal (09:53.943)
Mm-hmm.
L'Oreal (09:59.639)
Yeah.
Latham Thomas (10:11.648)
just know that it is the arbiter of safety. Your body always is able to tell you in very clear and certain terms what works and what doesn't. You feel it, and we learn through sensation how to interpret what our body is saying to us and use as information to make choices, right? And so it's so simple. Like if you look at children, they will tell you, I'm sleepy. They were going to sleep. My stomach hurts or this or I'm hungry. Like they will listen to those signals
L'Oreal (10:21.227)
Mm-hmm.
L'Oreal (10:35.838)
Mm-hmm.
Latham Thomas (10:41.622)
ways to communicate their needs to the adults who care for them. We have to start doing that because at a certain point in our lives, we start to subliminate those signals and that messaging and those needs at the expense of our well-being. And we do it for many reasons, right? We do it to uphold capitalism, right? So we work, you know, we work past pain, we work past. And when we do that,
L'Oreal (11:00.695)
Yep. Yes.
Latham Thomas (11:06.15)
there is a consequence. And so the thing to remember always is that the body keeps a score, right? There's a beautiful book, right, about this work and how everything that happens is remembered through the body, is there is a, it's etched, right, in our bodies, right? And so if we can, yeah, if we can just sort of think about, you know,
L'Oreal (11:13.783)
does.
L'Oreal (11:24.94)
Mm-hmm.
Latham Thomas (11:34.368)
not just considering ourselves and putting ourselves at the center and then building around ourselves like a practice, right, that supports just taking care, being gentle and listening. It'll help us to make choices that are aligned with optimal well-being. And I know for certain in working with so many women that
L'Oreal (11:51.852)
Mm-hmm.
Latham Thomas (11:56.562)
When they are learning this listening practice that as they start to see like my god And I did this and then this started to happen that awakening is so fulfilling right and so I just want to remind people It's not a certain type of person that can do this all of us have this available to us
L'Oreal (12:13.217)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, it's about being able to get quiet and listen. And that's so hard in today's world for all of the reasons you stated. And yeah, there's a lot of noise out there and we have to get quiet and listen. But the body knows and the body tells us, and it's up to us what we do with that information. But we're so wise. Our bodies are so wise. And yeah, it's what they were literally born to do. And so.
Latham Thomas (12:18.454)
Yes.
Latham Thomas (12:27.672)
Mm-hmm.
Latham Thomas (12:33.803)
Yeah.
Latham Thomas (12:37.482)
Literally.
L'Oreal (12:42.017)
Talking about that, this is work that you have clearly been born to do and do so well. I want to talk about how you got into it. Take us back to the beginning, perhaps what you were doing before. I understand that your birth story is actually tied up in that as well. So I'd love for you to share more of that with us.
Latham Thomas (13:02.218)
Yeah, so I come to women's health being in this path for over two decades. Really, I would say my whole life was marked by a, and not only an interest, but also just like an understanding and a deep desire to understand and learn and be a student of the body. And
I would say it started probably as far back as I can remember to being a four-year-old child when my mother was pregnant with my sister.
And at the same time, my aunt and my great aunt were pregnant. And they were due within a month of each other, March, April, and May. And so what that looks like as a four-year-old is walking around, and you're sort of at the height of the fundus. And so you're sort of like bumping into bellies all the time and seeing all these amazing, beautiful Black women, like full-bodied in their power.
L'Oreal (13:54.167)
Mm-hmm.
Hehehe
Latham Thomas (14:05.25)
and carrying new life was so fascinating to me. I had a cousin who we actually looked like twins, but we were a couple months apart, and she was older, and so she had a sibling coming too. And we were so excited. We would take Cabbage Patch dolls, which, by the way, they were everything, y'all, back in the day.
L'Oreal (14:18.615)
Mm-hmm.
L'Oreal (14:25.974)
Yes.
Latham Thomas (14:27.65)
My mom somehow found Black Cabbage Patch dolls. had six of them. Okay. And we would stuff them under our shirts and then pretend to deliver each other's babies. And so that was like our dramatic play. And that's how I kind of started to get interested in birth as a concept. And at the time my mother had me watching PBS. There was a show called My Mom's Having a Baby. I still remember the jingle. I had Gracie
L'Oreal (14:32.365)
Cut.
L'Oreal (14:41.965)
Mm-hmm.
Latham Thomas (14:57.284)
anatomy coloring books. and I also was really versed in, human anatomy. And as you know, when you put something in front of a child and they have interest, it's like they become obsessed, right? And so they can go really deep with stuff and you'll be like, how would you know what every type of fish is? Right. How do you, and it's like, you would not have taught them, but somehow they'd like just go all the way there.
L'Oreal (14:59.085)
Mm-hmm.
L'Oreal (15:12.104)
Yes.
L'Oreal (15:18.346)
Mm-hmm.
L'Oreal (15:24.931)
Yeah
Latham Thomas (15:25.452)
Well, I could identify many body parts by name without the help of adults at the time. And one time we're at the grocery store, remember there's like seven months, almost eight months pregnant. And she's super proud of this and usually tells people in every room that we're in that I, someone comes up and they're like, my goodness, your mother has a baby in her tummy. I said, no, my mother has a baby in her uterus and it's going to come out.
L'Oreal (15:51.981)
Okay?
Latham Thomas (15:53.134)
Okay. So let's be clear, right? It's coming out of her vagina And so she was just like, you know, like this is, you know, the kids interested in science, but, but also there was a bodily autonomy piece that was really important and a body literacy piece that would sort of the foundation for my understanding connection reverence for, and also, a
L'Oreal (15:56.536)
Yes.
L'Oreal (16:00.311)
And there you have it.
Latham Thomas (16:20.902)
a, I would say the breadcrumbs, right? Leading to what I would ultimately do. And so that foundation was really critical as a child. And so my sister was born, my cousins were born, and I was still always so interested and fast forward to, you know, my journey in adulthood when I became pregnant with my son. I was living in New York City, which I still live by the way.
I was living in New York City. I was recently graduated from Columbia University, just freshly out of college, just when you're just off your parents' insurance and just out into the world and just figuring out how to live. And I met my son's father, add water.
you know, I'm pregnant and, you know, it's really easy to make a baby sometimes. And so, in this experience, right, we find ourselves in a space where I don't have the same resources that I felt like I had in California, where I'm from. Like, I feel like if I was in California, I would know where to go for care. But in New York, I wasn't really versed and I didn't know where to go. And if you think back to
L'Oreal (17:36.503)
Mm-hmm.
Latham Thomas (17:43.344)
22 years ago. I know people think that two decades doesn't seem like a lot of time. But in terms of technology, it is light years. And so we barely had text messaging 20 years ago, just so folks know. OK, they're listening. Let me anchor you in what we were doing for technology.
L'Oreal (17:55.073)
Yes.
L'Oreal (17:59.309)
Mm-hmm.
Latham Thomas (18:05.834)
And 22 years ago, we were using something called a landline telephone, which is a relic now, but it was in your house and you would dial it. People would leave messages on your answering machine, which was an audible device connected, not inside of your cell phone. Right. And we would take messages there. this was what we were doing. So we also used, not, not Google, but something called the, the, the white pages, which were.
the yellow pages and the white pages which were telephone books which had all the numbers of businesses so that you could and also people that you could go call them right by name and so which is like crazy that we had that back then and so
L'Oreal (18:47.202)
Yes.
L'Oreal (18:54.007)
I'm like hearing you talk about this, I'm like, wow, this is really, it was, and I remember these times, like to, cause explaining it to someone who is younger, they were like, you had phone books? Why? Like an answering machine separate from the phone? Yes, yes. It was a time.
Latham Thomas (18:57.492)
It was hard to do.
Latham Thomas (19:07.488)
Yeah, and you were writing numbers. Like, yes, we had to, I had a freaking big Rolodex of phone numbers and addresses because we wrote letters back then. And so we didn't write emails, right? So I didn't email a doctor, go to their website. I called their office.
L'Oreal (19:19.839)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Latham Thomas (19:28.878)
And so that's how I had to find my first appointment. And that didn't go well because I called and it's October, right? At the time I call and I'm recently pregnant and they say, we have a great conversation. They're like, we can get you an appointment in May. I was like, back up.
L'Oreal (19:49.163)
I'm sorry. Time out. Yeah.
Latham Thomas (19:50.318)
Exactly. I was like, pause. What'd you say? I was like, pardon me. And she was like, yeah, may. I was like, you know, like the baby will be like probably seven months along, like the pregnancy. Like, how can I wait? She's like, that's just the situation. There's a lot of, pregnancies now. This is post 9 11, where there's like fear, but also a lot of like the sense of wanting to come together. A lot of pregnancies and a lot of boys were actually born in those years following.
L'Oreal (20:15.917)
Mm-hmm.
Latham Thomas (20:20.224)
9-11, so 2002, 2003, 2004, tons of boys were born, which is very interesting. It was never closed for my son at his age ever in the stores. So that's how I knew that they were all boys. A lot of boys were born that time, but a lot of pregnancies generally happened in that time frame. And so they didn't have any space. And I was like, this is weird. So I was so kind of forlorn in a way, because I felt like I found
L'Oreal (20:30.1)
Mm-hmm. Okay.
Yeah.
Latham Thomas (20:50.08)
a great place for my care. So then I tried to figure it out by going to other places. I went to Columbia Presbyterian. I did not have a good experience. And then ultimately, I was living in Chelsea with my son's father.
which I decided to do because I was in Harlem and he was like, you can live with me and not pay rent. I was like, let's do that. And so I moved to Chelsea, so my new neighborhood, right? I'm walking and he notices, not me, he notices this place called Elizabeth Seaton Childbearing Center, which is right next door.
L'Oreal (21:16.577)
Yes.
Latham Thomas (21:36.79)
to where we would go out at night. If you were out in these streets, you were going to Nell's back in the day. You were going to the Derby and up and down, right? Two Eyes, okay? All of that was in the same area on 14th Street, very popular nightclub. So my son thinks that he was born in a nightclub. But, and he turned out to be a musician and a DJ, so it's a whole thing. So, so.
L'Oreal (21:43.756)
Mm-hmm.
L'Oreal (21:56.181)
You're like.
L'Oreal (22:01.676)
Hey
Latham Thomas (22:04.142)
Being there, we pass by and we go in and we do their like little info session. We find out that they take our insurance. We start working with the midwives, incredible experience. It's also seven blocks away from where we're living. So we have a great thing. The co-pays are just like $20 or $10 or something for my visits. And so it's amazing, yes. And it's with midwives, you walk into the space, it's beautiful. You go to your chart, you grab your chart.
L'Oreal (22:19.974)
nice.
L'Oreal (22:25.378)
Wow.
Latham Thomas (22:34.008)
from behind the counter in the console where they sit, right? You go back there, grab your chart by yourself. You don't ask permission, you just go and grab it. You open up your chart, you see all the notes, you see everything that has to do with your pregnancy. You then go weigh yourself and write the number in. You go to the restroom, you take a urine sample and you actually test it yourself and then you write in the chart.
L'Oreal (22:37.346)
Mm-hmm.
Latham Thomas (23:01.43)
And then you go, you bring your chart into the room and the midwife comes into the room. So you're part of that process, right? They teach you as you go. And then to deliver there, you do 21 hours of education. So you can't deliver there unless you do the course.
L'Oreal (23:18.56)
Mm-hmm.
Latham Thomas (23:19.03)
And I was fresh out of school. So I was like, okay, let's Right? Like I'm here for the learning. I'm here for the science. Like I'm environmental science major. So I'm like plant systems, you know, life sciences, human physiology. got this. Right. So I'm super into it and I fall in love, right. Cause I'm learning even more and
L'Oreal (23:21.642)
Let's do this.
Latham Thomas (23:46.196)
that really helps me in the process because the reason the education is critical
is because it allows you to surrender. Like when you have a sense of knowing, you can actually fall back into surrender. Because when something starts to unfold, when what you're anticipating actually goes down, you're not afraid because you know what to expect, right? And so also there is this trust in your body and your capacity for birthing that the midwives inherently
bring into the sessions, that they bring and imbue into the experience. And so you're made to believe at every appointment that you can do it. And so when you're there, also, another key piece is that they don't have any pharmaceuticals on the premises. So the birth that you will have will be without any assistance of
of drugs of any kind, So it really is using your internal resources and the support of the people around you to get onto the other side. And so they mentally prepare you for that and you're ready for that experience when it happens. And at the time, it was two blocks away from St. Vincent's Hospital. So if you had to do a transfer, you were right there if you needed to do one in an emergency situation, but it was a free standing birth center.
L'Oreal (24:48.161)
Mm-hmm.
L'Oreal (25:12.065)
there.
Latham Thomas (25:16.271)
And I was so blessed to be able to deliver there because it was closed two months after my son was born.
L'Oreal (25:25.094)
wow.
Latham Thomas (25:25.27)
And we've been fighting, we've been fighting for years to get another birth center back in this capacity. It does not exist in New York anymore, this capacity, in this way. And so I feel like I was blessed to have been able to be a part of a cohort of individuals who was able to have that experience there. And knowing that I have so many people in my life and folks that I've served and inside of a movement that we're in that's about
L'Oreal (25:32.172)
Mm-hmm.
Latham Thomas (25:55.136)
protecting the sanctity of this experience as we think about like black women and femmes who you know have I mean really challenging birth stories and experiences that are you know indignities that they suffer at the hands of our current medical system.
And also some people who go in healthy and then actually do not leave alive is like a reality in this country. so so much of our work has really been to at MamaGlow has been to really address the maternal health crisis in this country through advancing education of doulas and nurse care managers with doula competency training, our professional doula training
L'Oreal (26:22.231)
Yeah, it is.
Latham Thomas (26:45.866)
program has allowed us to train over 3,000 doulas globally. so part of that effort is really to ensure that people go into the workforce and bring these skills to support alongside individuals who are going through this major life transition and to be an intervention themselves, right? To be that.
L'Oreal (27:02.999)
Mm-hmm.
Latham Thomas (27:09.92)
that support system, that advocacy partner, you know, who helps them get to the other side safely. And that experience, I believe, should be, you know, one of transcendence, one that's dignified, one that people feel empowered on the other side of. And that's what we really root our work in at MamaGlow is that feeling, right? And not having a conversation around just
L'Oreal (27:28.076)
Mm-hmm.
Latham Thomas (27:40.076)
surviving childbirth because to me that's like insulting. Like why are we talking about survival? Survival? Like no, transcendence. Transcendence, like sense of ease, feeling like you are seen and witnessed in this transformation. And when people really understand what's available to us biochemically, what's available to us as we move through birthing rights,
L'Oreal (27:44.363)
Right, that's the minimum. Yeah. Yeah. Yes.
Latham Thomas (28:11.509)
If everyone understood, they were protected. And so that's why my mission really has been to educate so many people along this path to understand the underpinnings, right, of what makes birth possible and how to get it right. Because it is really important how you are born. And I stress this so much.
because I don't think people really understand that you only have one birthday. You only have one birthday. And every other year it's an anniversary. And so we have to get birthright. That day is important because...
two people emerge on the other side of that experience or more people than two sometimes, right? Come on the other side of experience, born and reborn, right? We have babies who come Earth side, right? Like who are moving from between heaven and earth and come through our bodies to the earth, right? And then we are also becoming in so many ways. It's like even the grooves in our brain, the neurochemicals,
L'Oreal (28:57.773)
Yeah.
L'Oreal (29:11.575)
Mm-hmm.
Latham Thomas (29:22.272)
Like all of these things are creating this experience for us to be able to welcome new life. And if people really understood that, it would be on every billboard, we'd be celebrating it. But it's like almost as if because it happens all the time that it's normalized, but it's sacred. It's a sacred and holy event.
And we need to make people who are essentially in clinical settings feel like it is a sacred and holy and transcendent event because it really is.
L'Oreal (29:56.097)
Yeah, I had a girlfriend who recently shared with me the birth story for her second child, her daughter. And she's like, one of my greatest life accomplishments is that I birthed this little brown girl in a room full of black and brown women. She had midwives and doula. was a home birth after a C-section, which I was like, I didn't even know that was possible. And she showed me the pictures and I was just like, this is beautiful and sacred and ancestral and just.
Latham Thomas (30:13.783)
Yeah.
L'Oreal (30:25.013)
I didn't know it could be that way, because that wasn't my story. And it's not for so many other people. But yeah, what you're describing is really, is really special and deserves to be treated as such and should be accessible to everybody. And it's not.
Latham Thomas (30:41.238)
It should be accessible. That's the thing too that I hate that there's conversations like certain people have access to doula care or a specific type of birth experience. It's very interesting that we think about sort of the inception of this country for the first couple of hundred years. Everyone was born by black or indigenous midwives. And everyone was born at home. Right? This was the reality.
L'Oreal (30:47.991)
Mm-hmm.
L'Oreal (31:05.41)
Mm-hmm.
Latham Thomas (31:11.812)
And so it's interesting that it becomes where, you know, everyone is born by Black or Indigenous midwives to...
a time where we have about 37,000 OBGYNs in this country, 14,000 midwives, that's a huge imbalance, right? Because more, if we think about other so quote unquote developed nations, they have a midwifery to obstetrician ratio, and they have way better birth outcomes. We have a higher obstetrician to midwifery ratio, and we have poor birth outcomes, right? And so,
How do we get to a place where we have 14,000 midwives, less than 6 % are people of color, and less than 2 % identify as black? How we get there? How we get there is through racist propaganda. How we get there is through criminalization and credentialing. How we get there is by wiping out entire
communities and locking out information that was from those communities, right? Intercepting it, bringing it into institutions, institutionalizing it, sanitizing it, and then codifying it inside of medical spaces. And then actually criminalizing midwives who are practicing outside of the system, right? This is how we get here over hundreds of years. And then racist propaganda, right? It perpetuates it.
L'Oreal (32:35.746)
Mm-hmm.
Latham Thomas (32:42.156)
And so, and then policies, right, and legislation. And that's how we get to a place where we don't even have people in our communities who look like us who can provide us with this care. And we have generations of us who could probably reach back, and there was a midwife in our lineage, and not one that is like a generation away, but many generations away, because of us being locked out of this profession.
L'Oreal (33:00.127)
Mm-hmm.
L'Oreal (33:09.335)
Yeah.
Latham Thomas (33:10.006)
Right? so it's unfortunate that we are in this place that we are in now. But what I'm hopeful for is that there's this shift, right, where people really see that.
it's really important to reclaim not only the ancestry, the information, but the opportunity to step into this world and into this work as a clinician on maybe on the midwifery side, right? To be able to offer out of hospital birth as an option, home birth as an option, or hospital birth with midwives as an option. We need more midwives, right? We just do. And so that's important. So I'm grateful that the work that we do is supporting
L'Oreal (33:32.449)
Mm-hmm.
L'Oreal (33:44.364)
Mm-hmm.
Latham Thomas (33:53.52)
right, in advancing maternal health outcomes. We do need more clinicians though, right? It's one thing to have doulas, we can do what we can. We are not the say-all be-all end-all. We, like doulas, cannot solve the maternal health crisis that we did not start, but we can certainly be one of.
L'Oreal (33:59.851)
Mm-hmm.
L'Oreal (34:09.878)
Right.
Latham Thomas (34:13.706)
many pieces that address a systemic change that's necessary to advance maternal health outcomes in this country. And so this is one piece. But also, advancing midwifery practice is really important in ensuring that people don't have barriers to access to education, making sure that we can actually create birth centers in our communities. These are things that are really important to work through. And so
L'Oreal (34:21.282)
Mm-hmm.
Latham Thomas (34:41.26)
So lot of what we end up doing too is policy work and really having conversations about how we can, you're making policy recommendations and doing research to understand how we can better create.
a world where this access is normalized, but also that, you know, we can find ways to make it a reality. Because I feel like if I were to have a child now, I don't feel confident in the spaces. Like, I wouldn't feel comfortable to do it in New York.
L'Oreal (35:00.289)
Mm-hmm.
L'Oreal (35:14.689)
Yeah, that's a shame.
Latham Thomas (35:17.057)
I know.
L'Oreal (35:18.629)
That was terrible. And I'm curious for you, what was the moment when you realized, this is my life's work, this is what I've been put on this earth for, how do, like, MamaGlow has grown beyond, you know, just a business, it's a movement, but what was that thought process for you, you know, and imagine too, as a young mom, just figuring all of this out, the trajectory you want your career to take?
Latham Thomas (35:20.334)
Thank
Latham Thomas (35:45.496)
Mm-hmm.
L'Oreal (35:45.729)
while also caring for this tiny human because I think that's this, I'm selfishly asking because that's the space that I'm in currently of just trying to figure it out and make it make sense. And also because the capitalist world we live in make it make money. And I imagine some of our listeners too. So just how, how did you do it? Tell us, show us your ways.
Latham Thomas (35:58.252)
Make a move.
Latham Thomas (36:05.454)
First of all, I love that you said make it make money. I'm a Taurus. Money is our love language. So yes, so that's number one. But I think a few things. So number one, it was the birth itself that was a catalyst, right? So I had that foundational experience of witnessing my mother. And then that sort of came full circle in my own birth. I remember it was a really
L'Oreal (36:10.039)
Nice.
Latham Thomas (36:35.438)
hot and balmy July day. My son was in July. Y'all, if you get pregnant in the winter time, you're have fall winter, you're gonna have a summer baby. Okay, so know, right? And accordingly, you know? So maybe do it like a little bit later, you know? But, and so, or a little bit earlier rather. So I got pregnant in October.
L'Oreal (36:45.601)
Take heed. Yeah. Plan accordingly.
L'Oreal (36:55.744)
Yeah.
Latham Thomas (37:04.63)
And so I end up with a summer pregnancy, you know, at the height of it. And I remember it was July 12th and
My due date, we often call due range, right? Because babies typically don't come on their due dates, but we give people time and space to sort of imagine anywhere within two weeks ahead or behind. So it's really like a month's period where we sort of give people to feel in and around that time that maybe will come without anxiety, right? Around a due date, quote unquote. But the day they gave me was July 6th. And as many people may know,
L'Oreal (37:19.405)
Mm-hmm.
L'Oreal (37:29.175)
Mm-hmm.
Latham Thomas (37:46.236)
But if you don't know, first time babies typically don't come on their birthdays, on their due dates rather, right? First time babies typically come late, quote unquote, right? And so I don't believe in babies coming late. I believe that babies come on their birthdays, right? So babies choose and they come on those days. And so...
My baby was taking his time. He was very comfortable. I was really ready for him to come. He was not ready to come. And so July 12th though, I was just like, my God, I'm so hot. I'm so tired. And it happened to be a full moon. And it was the full buck moon, which is correlated with a time in nature where the...
the deer will start to actually grow their antlers back. so this is correlated with that moon. And I felt the timing of it. I felt like it was time.
L'Oreal (38:44.405)
Latham Thomas (38:56.31)
And I walked around, I walked miles and miles at Denver, had a little denim skirt and a little tank top on, and I was hot, and I was walking and walking. And as you walk, what happens is that the baby can sit deeper into the bow of the pelvis. And what can happen is that the head can actually start to sit deeper, closer to the cervix. And the cervix is the opening to the uterus, so we call it like the
mouth of the uterus, right? And so, or like the throat, people might call. And similarly to your vocal box, right? The cervix works similarly in how it opens and dilates, right? And so, so as you sort of continue walking, that will open up the ligaments and help the baby settle deeper and can be a really great way to bring labor on, right? And so I did all the walking, I get home, I shower, I'm like,
L'Oreal (39:27.351)
Mm-hmm.
Latham Thomas (39:55.15)
cocoa buttering up and I'm in the bed and I'm just like, you know, my hands cross like this over my belly and I'm like, God.
L'Oreal (40:01.485)
Mm.
Latham Thomas (40:05.454)
You're a humble servant here. If you would just give me a sign, you know, what's going on? I'm tired. This baby is not giving me a sign. I really need him to be born. I'm ready. You know, I really feel ready. Like, let's make this happen. And can you just give me a sign though? Because I feel like I don't know. I feel like I can't tell, right?
L'Oreal (40:09.62)
Mm-hmm.
L'Oreal (40:18.848)
Mm-hmm.
Latham Thomas (40:28.238)
And so I was saying this and I'm praying out loud as I often do as I talk. And then I'm listening to Mahalia Jackson though also. like really as she's singing and you know this this barreling, this like digging down, like scraping the.
the pan, right, with that voice that she does. And as she was moving into, like, her voice was growing, like the bellowing was growing, I feel this, I hear the sound, this pop, like that. And then I feel the most amazing sensation as I'm sitting in the bed, which is warm fluid leaving my body.
L'Oreal (40:52.439)
Yeah.
Latham Thomas (41:21.302)
And I sat there before I even was fully aware it was happening. I was like, my God, what is that? And I said, my God, actually I think my water broke. And then my son's father goes, no, you're peeing in the bed. I was like, I'm not. He's like, get up. I get up, stand up. L'Oreal, did you ever see Sex and the City when Miranda is, her water breaks with Brady? Girl, it's a movie. It's a movie. It's a movie.
L'Oreal (41:44.567)
No.
Latham Thomas (41:50.542)
I'm standing there and it's like, gush, like the movies. And I was like, my God, it's full on, it's happening. We were so excited. So we were like calling everybody, yo, the baby's on the way, like promoters, you know? And we're like so excited. We called the midwives, we're like, go to bed. I was like, girl, I'm not going to sleep. I was like, I'm excited. How am going to go to sleep? It's 1230 at night and like my water broke. Like it's about to happen. Like I'm excited. Girl, go to bed. So should have noted, should have listened, did not. Taurus, right? Suburn.
L'Oreal (41:55.586)
Wow.
L'Oreal (42:11.169)
Yeah.
L'Oreal (42:19.351)
Yeah.
Latham Thomas (42:22.007)
So I don't go to sleep. I watch jazz documentaries till four in the morning with my son's godfather. We're hanging out watching jazz documentaries. I finally, on VHS by the way, I finally go to sleep and I can only sleep for like an hour and change because then I start to feel stuff. And what I'm feeling is like the sensations, little contractions. And I was like, okay, this is a little uncomfortable.
L'Oreal (42:41.014)
Mm-hmm.
Latham Thomas (42:49.046)
So I get up, I take a shower, and then I come back and then I'm like, hmm, it's getting a little bit more uncomfortable. Around eight o'clock in the morning, I said to my son's father, like, yeah, can you just like, some pressure here or whatever? And so he started to be a little bit helpful. And then by 9 a.m., I couldn't talk. And one of the things they said was, he was like, I think we should come now. She's like, she can come.
L'Oreal (43:10.583)
Mmm.
Latham Thomas (43:17.644)
when she can't speak, when she can't talk to us or she can't advocate or she can't tell us what's going on, we'll let you know when you should come. So he's talking to me and I'm like signing and signaling and just sounding because I don't have language anymore because one of the things that happens is that the neocortex shuts off.
Right? And so what happens is like, which is your center for language and communication. So what happens instead is your limbic system, which is your emotional motor system, kicks in overdrive. And also this is like the deepest and most mammalian parts of the brain are activated in birth. so.
L'Oreal (43:58.477)
Mm-hmm.
Latham Thomas (43:59.85)
So this part of you that is all about feeling, it is all about like, you know, sort of moving through, listening to the internal wisdom of the body is able to kick in when you move into active labor. You're actually in a trance, because you move out of your thinking state, which is like, you know, sort of beta brain waves, you move into what's called alpha, and you're actually able to be almost in what's like a meditative or dreamlike state. And we have to be here to birth.
We have to. If we are in beta, like where you and I are now in our normal waking consciousness, we cannot birth our babies easily, right? And typically when we're here, we're advocating, we're fighting for our lives, we're defending ourselves, we're trying to protect ourselves, we're trying to create safety to actually birth our babies, right? Which typically leads to adverse birth outcomes because we can't actually enter into the birth trance. Because birth is a trance. I teach this, right?
L'Oreal (44:31.297)
Mm-hmm.
L'Oreal (44:40.993)
Yeah.
L'Oreal (44:51.671)
Mm-hmm.
I love this, yeah.
Latham Thomas (44:54.882)
So I'm in the trance, right? So I'm in the trance, and I'm just sounding and all this. And they're like, yeah, it's time to come. Because they asked the question. was like, could not speak. So we head down there. My father-in-law, the father, the godfather. It's like a testo fest. We are in the car. It is intense. It's all men. They are intense.
L'Oreal (45:07.338)
Mm-hmm.
L'Oreal (45:18.131)
Hahaha
Latham Thomas (45:24.502)
We get, first of all, it's seven blocks. You would have thought we were going to JFK. The way they were pressing the cab driver, I was like embarrassed because it was like, it's seven blocks you guys and there's no lights. Like we're good. So it took like two and a half minutes to get there, but the way that they were talking to this cab driver, you would have thought we were going to JFK. So we get out, we walk into the, the, birth center.
L'Oreal (45:29.388)
Right.
L'Oreal (45:37.186)
Yeah.
Latham Thomas (45:49.376)
And when I come in, I'm in the middle of a contraction, so I have to brace. And so they watch. And here's my son's grandfather. Get her in a room. Hurry up. sits too, like, stop this. Like, she is having a baby. Let's step on it. And they're like this, just sitting, just watching, just observing. They don't say a word. Not to them. They just watch me. And then...
L'Oreal (46:09.453)
Mm-hmm.
Latham Thomas (46:20.426)
Suddenly they say, leave them right this way. So calm. And they take me to the back and he goes, Whoa. And it was calm. It reset the whole energy.
Everything was calm, collected, relaxed. The birth center set up like a home environment. So you have like a kitchen area. They were cooking, the kitchen, watching TV. I was in the birth room. There was a skylight. I was in this beautiful tub and they had jets. So you know I had the jets on the front and the back. So on the front where I was having contractions, on the back where I was having, yes, it was like amazing. So the low back pain was handled, the front pain was handled. And I was just in there just like swaying from side to side. I remember just the
L'Oreal (46:58.765)
Mm. Yeah.
Latham Thomas (47:06.784)
the sounds I was making. I remember what I was seeing around me. And I remember having deep REM sleep in between contractions, because I hadn't slept the night before. remember she told me to sleep when I didn't sleep. So I had no energy. So that's what I get for now listening. So I'm in there, falling off asleep. And then I would feel a contraction come. And I felt like I slept for three hours, but it'd be like a minute. then I would get, know, my son's father would apply pressure to my low back, help me deal with the sensations.
L'Oreal (47:16.214)
Right.
Latham Thomas (47:36.688)
The wives just disappear and then just come back and check in every now and again, but they mainly disappear. And then eventually I was like, I think it's ready. I'm ready to push, I think. And they're like, okay, well, we'll check. And they're like, yeah, seems like you're ready. You know, you're dilated fully if you want to, we can or whatever. Like just really relaxed.
So I said, okay, let's get in the tub to do so. So we're in the tub. And then my son's umbilical cord was wrapped around his shoulder, kind like a backpack strap as it was coming down. And so what that meant was he was having fetal heart rate decelerations, which meant that his heart rate would go down in between because he wasn't happy about that. And because he was actually not getting the maximal blood flow through the cord.
L'Oreal (48:03.447)
Okay.
L'Oreal (48:11.799)
Mm-hmm.
Latham Thomas (48:15.982)
So they don't know what's causing that, but they do know that he's unhappy, right, in the water, in that position somehow. So very calmly, they say, let's go into the bed and let's have the baby now. And I'm like, okay. So we get out firm, not like frantic, firm, calm, right? Not throwing me off, not undoing all that good work or taking me out of the trance, but keeping where I was, but just moving, relocating me.
L'Oreal (48:22.23)
Mm-hmm.
L'Oreal (48:34.253)
Mm hmm. Calm.
L'Oreal (48:41.741)
Mm-hmm.
Latham Thomas (48:45.356)
And here's where it changed for me, L'Oreal, because as I was in the bed, and I'm sitting like almost in a squat position, but like the belly's here, right? And my son's father's aside, my best friend who became an OBGYN, she's on this side, and my son's birth was her first birth that she like witnessed. Yeah. So she's on this side, he's on this side.
L'Oreal (49:05.933)
L
that's special.
Latham Thomas (49:14.39)
And then I feel this like halo, this heat. And I was like, what is that? I feel hot. And I like look up because I feel also like I'm being observed. And so you know how like you look and you're like somebody staring at you and you look and right. It was like that, but it was coming from up. And so I look up.
L'Oreal (49:27.754)
Mm-hmm.
Latham Thomas (49:32.928)
And I see in the shape of like a half, like a horseshoe shape basically, it was open in the front, but like a curtain around me in this U shape. I see this pantheon of ancestors, like faces of people who look like me.
L'Oreal (49:54.561)
Mm-hmm.
Latham Thomas (49:55.032)
And then they were cloaked in these kind of like these robes that were like a brownish burgundy-ish and they were with their arms across their chest looking down. And I didn't recognize faces, but there was like this soul recognition that those were my people. And they were witnessing and protecting me as the baby was coming. And so I pointed to the ceiling.
L'Oreal (50:11.713)
Mm-hmm.
L'Oreal (50:18.349)
Mm.
Latham Thomas (50:22.222)
which for me was not a ceiling. It was like this, you know, experience happening above me. Everybody else saw a ceiling. I point and say, wanna go there. And everybody looks and they don't know what I'm seeing, but everybody remembers this. I say, I wanna go there. And then I feel myself do this, like peel out of my body.
how people describe when they have these experiences of near death or experiences where they travel. And people talk about this also when they are doing things like psychedelics, like peyote or ayahuasca. You hear a lot about these kind of visions, but like sort of separation from the body.
L'Oreal (50:52.087)
Mm-hmm.
Latham Thomas (51:06.932)
And what people are describing is also possible in birth because of the presence of what's called DMT, which is known as the God chemical, which is known as an amazing tryptamine, which is endogenous. Our body produces it in copious amounts during peak life events, including orgasm, birth, and traceable amounts at death as well. And near-death experiences where people do things like jump off of cliffs and things like that, they also produce copious amounts of DMT.
L'Oreal (51:33.869)
Mm-hmm.
Latham Thomas (51:37.044)
It is a euphoric causing hormone, but also works along with your dreams like melatonin does and works with melatonin and oxytocin. So you're in this kind of trance so you can have this experience that's out of body. So I have this experience where I'm hovering.
And I describe from that vantage point everything in the room. I describe everything I see from that point. And then I also watch my son be born from that vantage point. I watch my son be born. I'm telling them, which I could not possibly see, his hair color, him, I remember so clearly him emerging because I could see it, which is insane. And it's hard to say it in settings where
L'Oreal (52:07.393)
Mm-hmm.
L'Oreal (52:12.396)
Whoa.
Latham Thomas (52:28.296)
Most people didn't believe me for many years when I would talk about it. But now people are starting to understand because people have a neuroscience understanding that we didn't have like 20 years ago. People now are connecting neuroscience to use of psychedelics to understanding like what these bridges of consciousness really look like. And because other systems and other, I would say,
L'Oreal (52:31.253)
Mm-hmm.
L'Oreal (52:50.53)
Mm-hmm.
Latham Thomas (52:57.678)
cultural groups acknowledge that you can leave your body. Like part of our African ancestral technology is that we are not bound to our bodies. We learn this being bound to your bodies through Cartesian thought. This is really what we learn as a result of being in the West. But what spirituality tells us is that we're in everything and we're always right. It's possible. And so I have this experience, L'Oreal.
L'Oreal (53:07.17)
Mm-hmm.
L'Oreal (53:22.187)
Mm-hmm.
Latham Thomas (53:27.278)
After my son is born, right, he's like on my body, skin to skin, and I have this overwhelming sense of euphoria. Like, I cannot describe it, but what I can tell you that I remember very clearly saying, I understand now why people do drugs. I understand it now.
I can totally, because that feeling that I had, was like, I see what people are trying to seek. Like this feeling is a feeling, I've never experienced anything like this feeling before, and I've never done drugs, but that was that my own internal pharmacy kicked in and created that experience. And so you're coming down, right? And you just feel this immense love and joy and connection and,
L'Oreal (53:54.146)
Yeah.
L'Oreal (53:57.687)
Mm-hmm.
L'Oreal (54:09.013)
Mm-hmm.
Latham Thomas (54:18.718)
what you're meant to feel, right? And I didn't even know this was available because everybody was telling me all these other things about what was going to happen. And then something completely different happened. And I'm like, why aren't we talking about this? Why aren't we protecting this? Why aren't we making sure that many people have something like this, their version of it, right? And so maybe 20 minutes or so later, I was able to speak again.
L'Oreal (54:38.156)
Mm-hmm.
Latham Thomas (54:47.552)
And I said, I have to protect this experience. I have to protect this. People don't get this. I have to help them get to their version of this. I have to protect this. And that's when I knew. And it was in that moment.
And my son was maybe 22 minutes old in that moment. I said, I have to protect it. And I knew that that was going to be a mandate on my life. I didn't know how it was going to play out. I just knew that I had to step into it. And it revealed itself over time. And I think that I just was, what you said in the very beginning, the listening, I was just listening.
L'Oreal (55:16.205)
Mm-hmm.
L'Oreal (55:29.825)
Mm-hmm.
Latham Thomas (55:32.3)
And I feel like the whole time, L'Oreal, honestly, it's been an exercise of listening. Because every time I make a choice in service of this work, it is because I have listened and brought into action what I heard. And that is really from, you know,
Spirit speaking, it's like God speaking to me through people, through whatever it is, through a dream, like whatever it might be. I'm like, it's so clear to me. And that's why I feel like what we were talking about in the very beginning where you said, get clear and get focused and listen is so critical because that's the only way I was able to build MamaGlow is because I listened and I focused and it wasn't just an exercise of entrepreneurship and like hustle.
L'Oreal (55:57.761)
Mm-hmm.
L'Oreal (56:10.978)
Yeah.
Latham Thomas (56:23.232)
and I know people are so into that. And I do the opposite of that. I did not push myself to like overnighters or.
L'Oreal (56:25.345)
Mm-hmm.
Latham Thomas (56:34.026)
all-nighters or I didn't do all that and I didn't overburden and I didn't try to move fast and I didn't try to like scale and grow very quickly. I just built with intention and I just did it at my pace and because I only know how to move at my pace right and I'm at Taurus we hate being rushed and so there's that. So I but but to come back to what you said right that's the recipe like you literally outlined the recipe I feel like in the beginning which is that the listening is key.
the slowing down, the focus. And I remember one of my clients said this very beautifully. heard they were speaking on a podcast and they said, I never knew someone that didn't focus on one thing that didn't win. And when you focus...
your energy fruit is born. When you focus your energy fruit is born. You have to focus your energy. If you are doing 50,000 things and you're just trying to, this one's going, okay, let me focus it. No, stay the course. Listen, even if people are telling you you can't do it, find the people who believe in your vision, find your vision doulas, enroll them in the vision, have that support system around you as you build something and stay like this. I don't look to my left and from my right. I don't believe I have competitors. I don't even see other people.
L'Oreal (57:34.946)
Mm-hmm.
Latham Thomas (57:53.302)
I just focus on what we're building and I just build it, right? And so I think that if people can be in that energy of...
L'Oreal (57:53.485)
Mm.
Latham Thomas (58:01.71)
focusing and slowing down and really cultivating something. If you think about growing a plant, you know, I have some plants in my house are like 12, 15 feet tall, but they started out tiny. But you got to give space and time and energy and focus and also love and attention for something to grow. And so we are in a society that's moving at an accelerated pace. So people do not slow down. People think they have to move at that pace to get things done.
L'Oreal (58:10.433)
Wow.
Latham Thomas (58:28.946)
And I believe that you can slow down and get things done intentionally, and you can do them better if you're focused. And so that's my prayer for people is to...
surrender into that and to start to believe that it's possible because when you design your life around that then you'll then you'll succeed in ways that make sense for your life not for whatever the people's vision of success looks like or but for you and you'll have fulfillment which i think is more important and so that's i think how
L'Oreal (58:59.053)
Mmm.
Latham Thomas (59:03.2)
I was able to do it was that listening and constantly seeing when you have to change because, you know, I started as a solopreneur doula, right? Like just me growing it. And like you said, with a little baby. And I will tell you that having a young child is a motivating factor. Like children will make you get your shit together.
L'Oreal (59:13.421)
Mm-hmm.
L'Oreal (59:16.834)
Yeah.
L'Oreal (59:24.757)
Yes.
Latham Thomas (59:26.528)
Right? Children will make you get your life all the way together and make you question your life choices. Like, yo, what am I out here doing? Like, let me stop playing and like get my stuff together. So children will make you do that. They're a great motivating factor.
L'Oreal (59:30.135)
Mm-hmm.
L'Oreal (59:36.311)
Yeah.
Latham Thomas (59:39.538)
and so I think I was thrust into being more of an adult earlier than I probably wanted to be because of the timing and, also because of my commitment to like building something. There was a lot of sacrifice. There was definitely times where, you know, I had, we call it aunt days and grasshopper days, like aunt days was like, you know, not really having food, you know, or whatever it was. and, my child was always provided for, but meaning like for me, like, you know, having
days where just like it felt pressure, right? And I always revisit that and remember times where like I didn't have and the stress that I felt, you know, of economic stress and all of that, but also being so committed and knowing that like on the other side that I would win. And I wasn't thinking about it long-term.
L'Oreal (01:00:11.693)
heart.
L'Oreal (01:00:32.46)
Yeah.
Latham Thomas (01:00:32.886)
I was just like one foot in front of the other. And I think that once you start to look up from laying bricks, you start to see what you built, right? And so for me, that's what it turned out to be that I finally looked up. was like, OK, this is cool. Look what we did. I'm so blessed that we were able to do this. And I don't take credit in it alone because I don't do it alone. have an incredible team that believes in this vision that I have.
L'Oreal (01:00:47.617)
Yeah.
Latham Thomas (01:01:03.42)
and also step in to actualize it, right? And who also can anticipate my needs and can do things that like, because they're all trained doulas, right? Like everybody who works with us, I train them. And so they can think in the ways that I think in a way, right? To problem solve and to bring into this work. And so, and then that's how we then create spaces for our communities, whether it's like, you know, the MamaGlow professional training.
L'Oreal (01:01:13.448)
Mm-hmm.
Latham Thomas (01:01:32.72)
programs that I offer to the public or within the university setting, like at Brown, where I'm an appointed professor, where the course people can take also who are students, or whether it's something like the courses that we might create for health care systems or hospitals, whether it's the work that we bring to life through something like the Dula Expo, which is like a community event and a festival that
L'Oreal (01:01:59.819)
Mm hmm.
Latham Thomas (01:02:02.66)
brings our values to life and our beliefs and also our vision for the future of birth work to life. Or something like the soft space, which is like also a physical manifestation of our love of community and women and those who are like navigating the reproductive life course and people who want to celebrate like fly ass life events, you know, bring them into that space. And so we always are bringing love and kind of leaning into these principles around birth and rebirth and operating.
L'Oreal (01:02:23.254)
Yes.
Latham Thomas (01:02:32.57)
from a space of openness to be servant leaders. And so that's what I feel like my calling has been one of service that's been evolving from practitioner then to teacher and then teacher and then visionary around our brand ethos. And then I get to implement this in so many ways. And this ethos, feel like.
you know, is like you said, a movement for people. It's something for people to hold onto and feel connected to so that we can all walk in the same kind of vision for a future that centers us, right? Like I think about what we are doing as liberatory because it's about, you know, visioning something that doesn't currently exist, but is, that should be part of our.
like mental and emotional sort of like constellation, right, that we follow, right, as we actualize it. And so what we're trying to do here every day when we show up is to design solutions for people and to meet their needs in really elegant ways and to center the needs of the most marginalized first.
L'Oreal (01:03:31.405)
Mm-hmm.
L'Oreal (01:03:53.929)
speechless because the first of all the birth story and the transcendence and seeing just
Latham Thomas (01:03:55.147)
no!
L'Oreal (01:04:06.103)
That is phenomenal. And then your prayer, because I told you at the onset that I selfishly was asking that question because that's the season that I'm in now with the economic stress and this building of something that you believe in while also trying to, to your point, absolutely. I look at Violet as my accountability partner, because I want to, feel a deep responsibility to show her, especially as a black woman.
Latham Thomas (01:04:17.102)
Thanks.
L'Oreal (01:04:35.297)
what is possible and not burning yourself into the ground in the process, right? To show her this softer way of living. You don't always have to be the strong black woman. So I received that prayer, that focus that you mentioned and with the energy and you have no idea, although you probably do because you've walked this road before me, have just, you spoke so much life into me. And I just want to thank you for that because
Latham Thomas (01:04:36.877)
Yeah.
Latham Thomas (01:05:04.078)
Thank you too. Yeah.
L'Oreal (01:05:06.869)
It's just incredible. And I could literally talk to you all day, but I know we're both busy mamas got things to do. So I will wrap it up with our work and play kind of lightning round section. And the first up is who is your mom crush?
Latham Thomas (01:05:26.479)
mom crush. this is so good.
Ooh, you know, do I have an actual mom crush? You know what I think I have more is like a archetype crush, where it's more like not a person, but like a mom, like lifestyle kind of thing. And what I love what I'm seeing is I'm loving seeing this.
L'Oreal (01:05:52.096)
Yeah.
Latham Thomas (01:06:02.036)
display. And I'm seeing it mostly on social now of mothers that are in their gentle parenting era, and particularly black mothers who grew up by the belt, being in conversation with their children in loving ways and demonstrating how we can be
loving and see our children as full human beings and recognize their humanity and equalize them and not diminish them. And I love seeing how they also defend their choices and their comment sections and stuff like that, as they also gentle parent people who are still carrying
the vestiges, right, of those harms, I think, that we all lived. And I say that because I grew up in that way, like where we were spanked and stuff.
L'Oreal (01:07:10.007)
same.
Latham Thomas (01:07:11.246)
Right? Like, and so my son's father and I had a really important conversation. We were both young, but we had the conversation like, Hey, like, does this happen in your family? I was like, it does. He was like, so I don't want that. was like, neither do I. And so we just decided before that we weren't going to, strike him in any way. And we just made that pact. And then when it was time to raise him, I was like, my God, how are we going to actually live up to this? I was like, I don't know.
L'Oreal (01:07:23.639)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
L'Oreal (01:07:40.588)
Mm-hmm.
Latham Thomas (01:07:41.26)
another way. And we did raise a generation, like he's the first generation in my family and then my sister raised her kids the same way. Like he's the first one who wasn't spanked and so and so he gets to now then raise his children in that way and I feel like seeing this now though in social
L'Oreal (01:08:01.825)
Mm-hmm.
Latham Thomas (01:08:02.382)
I would have loved when I was parenting, because social media didn't exist, just so y'all know. It's really that life. was really in stone ages. But literally, though, we didn't have... We had stuff like these old and inflexible websites that had some old white guys telling you how to raise your kids, which was also punitive and carceral. So it's like to have...
you know, these mothers who went through what they've gone through to then do the work that they needed to do for themselves to heal and to be on a healing journey and then to give the gift to their children of emotional intelligence and emotional regulation.
is so beautiful to see. And so I don't know the names of them so much as I see a movement of them that are sharing. And I love watching that. And I love also being healed in my childhood experiences by watching vicariously somebody get it right.
L'Oreal (01:08:56.523)
Yeah.
Latham Thomas (01:09:15.05)
I love being reminded that resilience is possible, but also...
that we do not have to create obstacles in children's lives that require resilience. And so I love to see that some parents are choosing to remove obstacles of emotional burden and pain and unnecessary trauma for their children. to me, that's like the greatest gift that we can give is to unburden them so that they can actually be free.
L'Oreal (01:09:30.455)
Yes.
L'Oreal (01:09:51.778)
Yeah.
Latham Thomas (01:09:54.704)
get to be free and then our children don't. And I just, feel like that we owe that to them in whatever ways we can possible, like whatever's possible for us, right, to help them be free. And so, you know, that's what I find as my mom crush, like is this energy of new parenting.
L'Oreal (01:09:58.561)
Mm-hmm.
L'Oreal (01:10:16.075)
Yeah.
Latham Thomas (01:10:20.586)
that I feel like I needed, you know? And I see it in them and I just applaud them and I cheerlead for them and I'm thankful because I think that it fills me up in ways that I'm not necessarily fully aware of yet.
L'Oreal (01:10:22.583)
Mm-hmm.
L'Oreal (01:10:36.193)
Yeah, well, on behalf of my Black mom group chat, I want to say thank you for seeing us and the work that we were doing because shit is hard. I saw Instagram Reel the other day that was like, you know, I apologize to my child more times this morning than my own mom has my entire life. And I was like. Facts. Facts.
Latham Thomas (01:10:55.766)
Yeah. Just that, I'm getting chills. Like my whole body has chills you saying that. Just that. Just people don't even understand the power, right, of apology. The power of just, even when you have the courage to even say like, hey, this thing happened, it was painful. I forgive you, but it did hurt.
L'Oreal (01:11:02.849)
Mm-hmm.
L'Oreal (01:11:13.933)
Mm-hmm.
Latham Thomas (01:11:18.814)
And I just want to let you know that I'm holding it because it's a memory, but I wanted to surface it. And what I found is like, even today, like my mom still can't even say it. Like there's no, she just can't bring herself to say like, I'm sorry for that or whatever. It's like deflection. And I'm like, wow, you know? And so you realize too that for some people it'll never be possible and that's okay. And the work for you to do and the work for us to do is
L'Oreal (01:11:23.469)
Mm-hmm.
L'Oreal (01:11:34.348)
Yeah.
Latham Thomas (01:11:49.249)
to do that work ourselves without the expectation of apology or contrition from anyone who's caused harm, but also like an opening in our hearts in ways like I see, and I learned so much about my mom and pain that she carries.
L'Oreal (01:12:12.193)
Mm-hmm.
Latham Thomas (01:12:13.258)
And now I have like a different lens on it that doesn't center me, but like looks at her as somebody that I'm actually, that I have prayers for, somebody who I want to like, you know, hold and hope that she, before she passes on to become an ancestor, that she's able to process and let go of some of these things so she can be free, you know? And so we can also like,
L'Oreal (01:12:22.519)
Yeah.
L'Oreal (01:12:34.583)
Yes, yes.
Latham Thomas (01:12:40.96)
unhinge ourselves from some of these things that are tethered to our parents, right? And so that's the work that I feel like.
L'Oreal (01:12:46.273)
Mm-hmm.
Latham Thomas (01:12:50.156)
that I am responsible for doing so that I don't repeat onto my son or I don't spill things unintentionally onto him. Mine's grown, he's 21. so it's like, have not the same interactions of like 24-7 involvement, right? And at the same time, I'm so aware of how I speak to him and the things that I do
L'Oreal (01:12:54.946)
Mm-hmm.
L'Oreal (01:13:09.527)
Mm-hmm.
Latham Thomas (01:13:20.11)
affirm him and I feel like the ways that I wish I was praised throughout, especially when I started out into life, I constantly do that for him. I'm constantly affirming, constantly pouring in. And I just want to remind all of us who are parents here, like that work never ends because postpartum is forever. just keep.
L'Oreal (01:13:27.618)
Yeah.
L'Oreal (01:13:41.741)
Yes, yes
Latham Thomas (01:13:44.236)
pouring in and loving and knowing that that connection, just like it was in utero is for life, or just like it was when you met that baby for the first time is for life. bless y'all. Thank you for this opportunity.
L'Oreal (01:13:51.425)
Mm-hmm.
L'Oreal (01:13:58.871)
Thank you so much, Latham. I am just like so in awe and so grateful for the work that you do for being an inspiration, a role model, and just for showing us what's possible. And that's really, that's huge. So thank you.
Latham Thomas (01:14:15.02)
Thank you too. Thank you for the platform and the opportunity and for a space like this. It's so needed. Do you realize how needed the space is? I hope you realize, right? So I know that you feel called, which is why you're doing it. And I want to be a reminder to you in this moment as a message comes through me that...
L'Oreal (01:14:17.845)
Yes.
L'Oreal (01:14:24.742)
Thank you.
L'Oreal (01:14:28.822)
Yeah.
Latham Thomas (01:14:37.259)
It doesn't matter what other people have done or doing, like only you could do it. Only you could do what you're doing right now. And so it's needed, your vantage point, your lens, your holding, your insight and your reflections, and then your distribution, right? Like pouring it out into the world and trusting that it's going to find the people that need it. That's key. And so please continue to do that. Please don't stop. Please don't feel ever like if you hit a wall,
or trepidation or whatever, please just don't, just remember, because I know people will be like, there's like so many podcasts, but there's not yours. There's really not yours. There's not yours. And now we have yours. And so in this way, right, in this particular way. So let's, let's be here.
L'Oreal (01:15:14.239)
Mm-hmm. Thank you. Yeah.
L'Oreal (01:15:22.071)
Yes.
Latham Thomas (01:15:25.074)
in the spirit of service and in the spirit of storytelling and also of healing because I feel like this is a space for that. And thank you for letting me share and go deep in ways that I don't get to typically in podcasts.
L'Oreal (01:15:33.089)
Yeah.
L'Oreal (01:15:41.439)
Yeah, no, thank you. Thank you for seeing me. Thank you for speaking for that prayer for all of it. I am so grateful. I am tearing up and so I just want to, yeah, thank you. And just thank you. Yeah.
Latham Thomas (01:15:56.733)
Thank you, Thank you, too. And God bless you. And so we meet again, my sister.
L'Oreal (01:15:59.755)
You too. Yes, yes, yes, yes.
