What The Hell Is Michael Jamin Talking About?

Have you ever struggled with writer's block? Do you need your muse to guide you through the pages of your screenplay? You need to listen to this episode of Screenwriters Need To Hear This, Michael & Phil tackle these two subjects and you probably won't see their answer coming.

Show Notes

Michael's Screenwriting Course - https://michaeljamin.com/course

Free Screenwriting Lesson - https://michaeljamin.com/free

Michael Jamin discusses the difference between an idea and the execution of an idea, why young writers are overly obsessed with people stealing their ideas, and how to really shine as a writer.

shownotes

Michael's Screenwriting Course - https://michaeljamin.com/course

Free Screenwriting Lesson - https://michaeljamin.com/free

In this episode, Michael Jamin answers listener questions posted on Michael's Social Media.

Show Notes

Michael's Screenwriting Course - https://michaeljamin.com/course

Free Screenwriting Lesson - https://michaeljamin.com/free

Questions pulled from - https://www.instagram.com/p/CTDtIJdpT-0/

Michael and Phil talk about different ways to break into Hollywood and most of it isn't what you'd think. Learn how Michael broke in, how Phil broke in, and the right way to think about accessing Hollywood.

Show Notes

Online Screenwriting Course - https://michaeljamin.com/course

Free Screenwriting Lesson - https://michaeljamin.com/free

Warner Brother’s Writer’s Workshop - https://televisionworkshop.warnerbros.com/writers-workshop/

Marc Maron - http://www.wtfpod.com/

Rhett & Link - https://mythical.com/

Joe Rogan - https://www.joerogan.com/

Sarah Cooper’s Netflix Show - https://www.netflix.com/title/81314070

Sarah Cooper’s CBS Pilot - https://deadline.com/2021/04/amy-york-rubin-to-direct-sarah-cooper-cindy-chupack-cbs-comedy-pilot-1234726403/

Blaire Erskine - https://www.instagram.com/blaire.erskine/?hl=en

TwirlyGirl - https://www.twirlygirlshop.com/

Michael (00:00):

Even though that experience wasn't great for me, I would still recommend the Warner Brothers Writing Program to people because it's, it's an in so great. You know, for us, it worked out well. We, we didn't have to make a third of our salary and we got to be on a great show, but for, for somebody else, it's still a better opportunity than none at all.

Michael (00:25):

All right. Welcome everyone today. We're talking about different paths to break into Hollywood, cuz you all wanna break into Hollywood, right? Yeah. That's the goal. That's the goal. So there's just so many different ways. Like people say, well, how do I get in? And there's, there's really no, obviously there's no one way. It's not like becoming a doctor where you go to Med School and that's what you, you know, eventually you become a, I guess you become a Resident, then you an Intern. And then, you know, you, you, you work your way as, as a, become a, a Physician or a Surgeon or whatever. There's no one way. And, uh, which is good, but it's a little it's must be a little frustrating too for people.

Phil (01:00):

Yeah. And I would say that this is, you know, if I go back to like 2000, I've known I wanted to be a writer since I was like 12 years old. Um, but when I go back and think about when I first started seriously studying screenwriting, that was, uh, I was trying to learn how to write a screenplay. I was learning formatting. I was using my software and using like, figuring out to do all that stuff. But the majority of my time was how do I get an agent? How do I break into Hollywood? What do I need to do to work in television or film?

Michael (01:28):

Yeah. And, and even like, thinking about like, let's see, like, let's see. When I, when I, I wanted to be a TV writer when I watched Cheers and I thought back then, this is how little I knew I was in high school. Well maybe if I start out as a grip, I can work my way up to writer. Like it doesn't even work that

Phil (01:42):

Way. You knew what a grip was. At least

Michael (01:44):

I didn't, I, I just saw that name. I didn't know what a grip did, but obviously, and it's not even, that's not even working your way up. Like people that's their job and they're happy. They don't wanna be writers that they wanna be grips. That's what they, that's what they want. So it's not like working your way up. It's not like grips below writer. It's like, that's, that's crazy. Um, but, and so, and then some people think, well, I just have to get an agent and an agent will get me work. It's like, no, the agent doesn't wanna have to work for you. The agent wants, basically wants you to do the work yourself and take 10%. That's every agent they want to, you know, they don't wanna have to hustle. They want someone who already is hustling and they can just make money from and like, well, that doesn't sound right. Well, but if you were an agent you'd want the same thing, you don't like, we all, no one wants to work hard. They want, they want something to come easy. So the agent's the same thing. The agent wants to have someone who's just on the cusp of breaking in. So there's a number of ways that people talk about. And I think one way we can talk about, uh, I think a lot of people put a lot of time and energy into our, our screenplay contests.

Phil (02:42):

Yeah. Screenplay contests, film fell, festival screenplay, contests, and, um, pitch fests are kind of the big three things that I see a lot of people in your group, as well as, you know, other writers I know, and things that were recommended ways to break in. Mm-hmm, we're doing these types of things and you know, I'm sure we're probably gonna get a lot of flack for this, from the people in these industries. If we haven't already at this point with some of the podcast content we've put out. Um, but it does not seem from a professional perspective that these are venues and avenues to get into the industry.

Michael (03:13):

Yeah. I don't want, I, I talked about, we talked about this a couple days, a couple episodes ago, so I don't want to hit on it too much, but yeah. I mean, it seems, I'll just real fast. Say like if you were, there are these festivals or pitch fest where like they'll take unknowns and let you pitch to Hollywood insiders. So just think about it from the other way around. If you were Hollywood insider and you wanted to make a, have a project put up, you had money to make a movie or a TV show, like why would you go out to a, an unknown, you just put a call out to a Hollywood agent. Hey, I want to get a show off the ground. Uh, send me some writers. Like you wouldn't go, you know, you wouldn't go to a pitch fest, you'd take, you want a professional. Why would you want an in an amateur, someone hasn't done it before.

Phil (03:53):

Now this is something I'm thinking about that I've not thought about in a while. But one of the best classes I had in film school was actually taught by my buddy rich. He was, he became my friend after. Um, but he had a class that was like the business of film and television. And he would bring in industry professionals who were working in New Mexico at the time or visiting because they were shooting a show in New Mexico. He would bring them in and we'd spend an hour and he would interview them for us. And I thought it was probably one of the most valuable things because you're hearing these people talk about what they look for. And at the end, he would give us an opportunity to pitch. If that person was a producer, if that person was a director and there were a couple times I'd pitch something and afterwards, those people would come up to me and give me their cards and say, I would love to read your script. Right, right. Now, nothing came of them. And five, six years down the road, I understand why I just wasn't ready. The script wasn't good enough to produce. Although the idea was good and enough, good enough to get them interested. The execution wasn't there.

Michael (04:54):

Yeah. It's all about the execution.

Phil (04:55):

Yeah. Yeah. So, so I definitely have seen that happen at some lower film as well, where you sit down and you sit with these industry professionals. And I think there's a lot of value in meeting those people, but it's typically those people are independent producers and independent directors and they're out trying to get their stuff made just as much as you are.

Michael (05:17):

They're hustling as much as you are. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So they're not gonna, they're not in a position to set you up. Right. Right, right. Then there are other programs that like, let's say like Warner Brothers has like, or Warner Brothers Writing Program, like that's different. Uh, and Disney has like, like fellowships and stuff like that. And those are definitely worth pursuing. And those could be a great entry way

Phil (05:37):

To, and you won you and, uh, your writing partner won the Warner Brothers.

Michael (05:39):

No, we didn't win. We, we got into, we were accepted to the Warner Brothers Writing Program.

Phil (05:44):

I call that a win person.

Michael (05:47):

But this is how it was. And this was many, many years ago and things have changed. But basically what you did back then was, uh, you get accepted, which is, which is hard. It's hard to get accepted. And then you have to pay Warner brothers. I think we paid maybe $400 each or something. I'm sure it's a lot more now. And we paid Warner brothers for the right to be accepted to this class to sign. And, and if you were to the top graduate of this class, uh, you would, they would try to place you on one of their shows. And back then Warner Brothers had a ton of sitcoms. Like they had a, they had, they just had like the Friday night block, they had so many shows that it was like, the odds were not terrible. Like they would try to place you on one of their shows. But if you, if they did, because you were graduate of the class, you would be earning the contracts that you'd earn like a third of Writer's Guild minimum. It was something like something really terrible like that. And so here only in Hollywood, do you pay to have a contract to sign a contract that gives you a third of what everyone else is getting paid and, and you're paying for this terrible contract. Like, that's crazy.

Phil (06:48):

That's fascinating. But I think that speaks to the competitiveness of this industry. Yeah. Because everyone thinks they have a good story idea. Everyone thinks they're a writer and it's so competitive you're literally paying people for opportunities to work for less money. It's insane.

Michael (07:03):

Yeah. And then we, didn't what happened was that class, you know, there, I remain friends with several people from that, from that, that, that core group of people that were maybe with 30 or 40 of us and only a handful of went on to actually be, become professional writers, everyone else kind of flamed out at one point or the other, uh, cause it is hard to break in. But, um, you know, we were, I, I do remain friends, but they, they chose a golden child. There was a golden child who's chosen pretty early the executives of the program. They, I think they decided that's the golden one. That's the one who will get work. And everyone else is like, well, but, but that, and, and so pretty early on, it was my partner and I could tell that, um, that we were not gonna be the golden people.

Michael (07:45):

And so we were not chosen when we graduated the class, they didn't try staffing us. It just so happened that our script, uh, man, our, that we had a script that was read, um, by the, by Steve Levitan who was at that time created brand new show called Just Shoot Me. And he read our script because our, his assistant read it and liked it and passed it on to him. And so he hired us. He goes, Hey, yeah, we wanna hire, I wanna hire you, uh, to be on, Just Shoot Me. And then we had to go back to, so we tell the people at Warner Brothers. Yeah. So, you know, our contracts is up and they're like, wait, well, not so fast. Now that, that Steve, Leviton's interested in you let's see if, let's see if we can get you on one of our you know, crappy TV shows and pay you a third. And then, so we basically had to bribe our way out that contract because, uh, you know, suddenly, suddenly they were interested in us, but only because someone else was interested in us, but before, before that they were not interested.

Phil (08:37):

Yeah, this is like the, the guy girl situation where the girls overlooked until someone else is interested. All of a sudden my eyes are open and I realized I never realized what was right before me this entire time. Except in this case, it's motivated by dollars.

Michael (08:49):

Yeah. Right. And so we got out of that, that, that was that made, that was history for us, like, okay, great. Now we're gonna Just Shoot Me now. We're basically set us off on our career path. But so that, but even still, like, you know, even though that experience wasn't great for me, I would still recommend the Warner Brothers Writing Program to people because it's, it's an in so great. You know, for us, it worked out well. We, we didn't have to make a third of our salary and we've got to be on a great show, but for it, for somebody else, it's still a better opportunity than none

Phil (09:17):

At all. I don't see that any different than, you know, I talked about the writers Guild foundation and the golden ticket that they have. Where you get invited to every single event, guaranteed seats. You just RSVP to say, you're gonna be there. They have your name on a seat. You show up front row and you have extra opportunity to interact and network with these people. And I met some amazing people. There was a guy from Canada who was down here, they were shooting the pilot of his show. I sat next to him at an event, talked to him. He asked for my script, he read my script. He sent me notes that were very helpful. That's that's nice. So, so I don't see any difference it's again, it's an investment in yourself. You're just is taking that opportunity. And, and I want to point out here too, because you know, there are a lot of people in your social media and I see the kind of mindset.

Phil (10:05):

"Well, I don't have any money." "I work as a PA barely get by, etc. etc," look ultimately it's about making sacrifices and sacrifice. You know, the way we define sacrifice from a theological perspective is "to make holy", like you're taking something to make what and you're to make holy holy I'm giving up something because I find this other thing more valuable. It is more sacred that's interest to me. Okay. So if you take the approach. Yeah. So if you're taking the approach of my writing career is sacred to me because it is really why I am here on this planet is to be a writer, then stop drinking Starbucks for a month. Yeah. Seven bucks a day, times 30 days. It's a lot of money, right. Even if it's only once a day, once a week, you're going, yeah. That stuff adds up. There are ways to win in the margins, as we say, in the, in the accounting world. Yeah. Like you can win in the margins and, and save up and you can get a license to Final Draft and learn how to do that. So you can be a Writer's Assistant. You can afford these Golden Ticket opportunities. The, that I think is just you approach. It is you have war chest there's funds there. And it is to be invested to help me pursue my reason for being on the planet. Right.

Michael (11:16):

Yeah. Yeah. And that, and, and so I've worked with so many inspiring people who couldn't get a break, so they made their own break and that's how they got into Hollywood. And I, I'm gonna list them because they're all incredibly successful people. The first one was Marc Maron, who he had a show IFC and my partner, Sivert and I, we, we ran that show for four years. And Marc is an interesting guy, cuz he was a, he was a comedian and he worked for a while in, in radio. And then I think he got, I dunno if he got fired or he left radio or whatever. But, um, he was basically cold. He couldn't book rooms, he was cold. And so, but he's a creative type and he had a create. And so this is back then, he, there was a thing called podcasting.

Michael (12:01):

No one knew what podcasts were and it was just a forum for him to talk into a microphone. And God knows if anyone was gonna listen, but he was gonna put on his little show and, and uh, interview people. And he's really, you know, he's good at interviewing. And uh, and that was it. But no one knew how he was gonna monetize, but he just did it because he, you know, he was putting, putting himself out there and eventually that podcast and his is one of the, one of the most successful podcasts out there. It's always in like the top five on apple. Yeah.

Phil (12:29):

He interviewed Barack Obama.

Michael (12:30):

Yeah. In his garage, in his garage President, The President

Phil (12:34):

Garage, The President of the United States came here and went to someone's garage to be on a podcast.

Michael (12:39):

Yeah. And because that podcast blew up, uh, Marc his, that reignited his comedy career and it got him a chance to get a, a TV show on IFC. That was the one we ran called Maron. And because that show kind of did really well, it got him on Glow. And then because of Glow, he gots all these other opportunities. Yeah. But it's not because he was begging Hollywood, let me in, he's like, screw it. I'm doing, I'm making something worthwhile and I will build an audience that way.

Phil (13:06):

Well, it summed up as he provided so much value people couldn't ignore it.

Michael (13:10):

Yeah. Right. And he did right. He just created on his owning, but he made it is creation good. The same, another example, um, were Rhett & Link. So re link where these two guys, we ran their show, which you worked on, uh, uh, they had a show on YouTube Red and it was a sitcom, but they're not com they're not TV writers. So they needed to have, uh, they created this show, but they needed to showrunners to actually write the episodes and kind of do all that work. And so they hired me, my partner to run their show, but who I who's written link. These are just two guys out in, I think from North Carolina, they just like, they were just two, no ones who started a YouTube channel. Um, and that was it. They did. And it, this is before YouTube was really a big thing.

Michael (13:51):

They just started putting up these shows and they, and they, these their, so they have good chemistry and they just kind of do wacky things. They would sit in a giant vat of oatmeal and do kind of like kind of all little mini contests with each other. And they had good chemistry and that show kind of blew up and became so big on YouTube that YouTube said to them, Hey, you guys are amazing. Uh, we'll give you your own TV show. And, but it wasn't like they weren't be, they didn't be YouTube. They just did their own thing. And Hollywood came to them and there's so many instances of Hollywood instead of people begging, you know, please Hollywood, let me in. They create something so amazing that Hollywood comes to them.

Phil (14:30):

Yeah. I think you could look at Joe Rogan. I think you could look at most of these people. I mean, you can split it off and it goes back to what we talked about in another podcast about "nicheing down: and finding your niche and owning that. Like, that's really how you break through these things. Those guys were, are advertisers, marketers. Yeah. And they, they leveraged that medium to make fake commercials. They do free commercials for businesses and they're so wild that's how they broke through on YouTube early on.

Michael (14:55):

Yeah. Because they were doing, no one was paying 'em to do this. No. Right. They just did it on their own. There's a woman over who I discovered at the beginning of the pandemic named Sarah Cooper. And I, I found her on, I think Twitter, but she was probably on all the platforms. And she would just, basically, she was a struggling actor, comedic actor who could not get arrested. She couldn't get anything, any kind of work. And so she'd says, screw it. And so she would basically take these speeches that Trump would make and kind of lip sync it. But wasn't, she was doing more than lip sync and she was adding, uh, her own personal touches and making it funny and doing things in the background and her funny facial expressions really plus it. So it wasn't just like standard, uh, lip syncing. She really, she put a lot of craft into it and because these things were so good, it was like, she was... You know, everyone had a noticer you, you could not watch this and think, wow. Like it was amazing her skill and her talent that she brought to it. And because of that, she, she became so big that Hollywood came her and gave her a Netflix special. And then they gave her, I think it was a show on CBS, a pilot that I didn't think I got to air, but she got all these opportunities, uh, because she just was like, screw it. I'm gonna be the master of my own domain here. I'm gonna, I'm gonna do it myself. Yeah.

Phil (16:06):

Yeah. It's seizing the opportunity. The old saying, "fortune favors the bold."

Michael (16:10):

Yeah. Creating an opportunity. And there's so many people like that. Another woman, Blaire Erskine, I think, I think that's how I pronounce her name. And I discovered her on, uh, on, uh, she would make these kind of funny, uh, videos on Twitter and they, but they were so good that that got discovered. Eventually. I think she's now a, uh, a writer on Kimel like, that's how she broke in. And she was not anyone she's like, screw it. I'm gonna do it myself. But it was good. Content was good.

Michael (16:37):

Hi guys, Michael Jamen here. I wanted to take a break from talking and talk just a little bit more. I think a lot of you guys are getting bad advice on the internet. I know this because I'm getting tagged. One guy tagged me with this. He said, "I heard from a script reader in the industry." And I was like, wait, what?

Michael (16:56):

Hold on, stop. My head blew up. I blacked out. And when I finally came to, I was like, listen, dude, there are no script readers in the industry by definition. These are people on the outside of the industry. They work part-time. They give their right arm to be in the industry. And instead they're giving you advice on what to do and you're for this. I mean, that just made me nuts, man. These people are unqualified to give my dog advice. And by the way, her script is, is coming along quite nicely. And oh, and I'm not done. Another thing when I work with TV writers who are new on, on writing staffs, a lot of these guys flame out after 13 episodes. So they get this big break. They finally get in and then they flame out because they don't know what is expected of them on the job. And that's sad because you know, it's not gonna happen again. So to fight all this, to flush all this bad stuff outta your head, I post daily tips on social media. You can find me on Instagram and TikTok and Facebook @MichaelJaminWriter. If you don't have time, two minutes a day to devote towards improving your craft guys, it's not gonna happen. Let's just be honest. So go find me, make it happen. All right. Now, back to my previous rant.

Phil (18:02):

So let's say that you're a writer and you're not like an on camera talent. You don't necessarily care to put yourself out there. That way. There might be some trepidation, you know, for me, I have, um, uh, an agent and I get auditions all the time and I have to self tape and I get just tremendous anxiety every time I have to be in front of the camera. Yeah. You know, it's just something I'm working through. And I, and I do it and I force myself to do those things because it's something I want to do. Um, but let's say I'm not, let's say that. I'm just, you know, someone who wants to rise up through a traditional route and let's say I'm a PA, right. What kinds of things do you think make a PA stand out to forge that path or create their own path?

Michael (18:41):

You know, we... we've talked... you're I think an excellent example of this, because you always say yes. When someone has a question or a problem. Yes, I will fix it. I will take care of it. No, relax, it's done already. It's already done relax. And so there are a number of instances I can think of you where, especially when it comes to tech, when it comes to something computer-related, because you would know so much about that. If a writer is having a problem with their comp, like you will show up, I I'll fix that for you. I will take care of, and you'll, I maybe you'll, you'll expand on, on that a little bit more, but, um, it's offering, what else do you offer? So even if it's not writing stuff, you offer these other skills that you have and you offer them freely. And because of that, you endear, you endear yourself to people and people wanna help you in exchange for that.

Phil (19:23):

Yeah. And I, and I think that it's an important note here, too, that when I do that, it is sincere that I just want to help. I am not doing it. It with any expectation that something is gonna come from it, right. It is that I understand that the best way for me to stick around is to be so valuable that I am invaluable. I, I, right. I, they want me around because I solve so many headaches for them.

Michael (19:46):

And you weren't charge you weren't you weren't saying, Hey, this is outside of my pay grade. I should get paid extra for this. You're like, no, I will gladly do it.

Phil (19:53):

Yeah. Yeah. Because, you know, I view it this way. Like, I'm not a member of a union. There are no union rules dictating what I can and can't do. And so I have opportunity now to over serve people.

Michael (20:05):

Let me, let me jump in here, Phil, cuz a lot of people don't know how you and I met. So we we've known each other probably since maybe 2010 or so.

Phil (20:14):

10, 10. Yeah, probably 10 or 11 somewhere there.

Michael (20:15):

So you were a stranger to me and my wife has a business, an online, uh, she sells, she, she manufactures girls dresses called TwirlyGirl. And so she at the time needed to build a website. She found a company that was gonna build a website. It was kind of a custom made site. It was, we found this place that over pro almost and underdelivered and uh, and Phil was working there. And uh, maybe I don't wanna tell a story wrong, but this is how I remember it is Cynthia, my wife was really kind of distraught was like, well, we paid all this money and you're not giving us what we want. And, and you got at some point, I don't know how you got on the phone.

Phil (20:49):

You were, I can tell you how so I was in sales at that company at the time. And I kind of saw the writing on the wall that they were gonna downsize my department and I didn't want to be there. What I wanted to do was work with the guy who was teaching all the things I was selling and he ran the other department or the account management department. So I went in and applied for a position there. I got hired and they transitioned me to account management. And your account, your wife's account was the first account I was handed. And they were like, we're giving you this account, do whatever you need to, to make this person happy because the sales rep oversold them to like, to a, a far extent promised way too much. Right. And so that's how I got on the phone with Cynthia.

Michael (21:32):

And then from what I remember, we were pretty and you're like, listen, I can't, uh, and this, you were overpromised and underdelivered. I'm gonna fix this as best as I can on my own, on my own dime. That's how I remember it. I will do whatever it takes. And because I just feel bad. I wanna make this right for you.

Phil (21:51):

Yeah. It, it ultimately ended up being some nights and weekends. And you know, I remember one experience where I got a call from your wife and she was in tears because she had accidentally deleted like a fat chunk of your website. Right. And I was actually up at Sundance where I was volunteering, cuz that's how I was in the industry at the time. Right. I just needed to be involved somehow. And I come down off the mountain and I've got this voicemail from Cynthia and I call her back and she's literally in tears cuz she thinks she has just deleted half of her website. Yeah, I remember that. And I was, and I was like, I was like, I promise you, like, we're gonna figure this out. I don't know what we can do, but let me see what we can do. And so, because I took the same approach, at work too where I would go in to the engineering department and I would say, what do you need from me as a sales rep to make your job easier? And then as an account manager, what do you, what do you need me to get you so that you can be as efficient as possible? I called one of the engineers on a weekend and I said, "Hey look, this client has made this mistake. Do we have any old versions?" And he was so ingratiated to me that he got in on his time on a Saturday night at like 10 o'clock at night, found the old version of the site and restored over the weekend.

Michael (23:01):

For her. Right. And so, and that, and you were a hero and you fixed it right away because of, and so because of that, now my wife felt indebted to you because you had done this great thing, you know, and you made her stop crying in this.

Phil (23:13):

At the same point, that to be clear to everybody listening, I have no idea who Cynthia is. Right. I have never talked to Michael at this point. Right. I just know here's someone who was sold a bill of goods that they, we couldn't honor. And I needed to do anything I could to feel ethically okay about this.

Michael (23:29):

Right. And so Cynthia says over the next couple weeks or whatever, she's talking with you and you somehow the conversation turns to what you want. You wanna become a TV or a screenwriter.

Phil (23:39):

It was actually, she's like, Hey my, my husband, Michael's gonna get on while he waits, um, for his next show to start. And I was like, oh, show. She's like, oh yeah, he's gonna be running Marc Maron's new show. Right. And I was like, okay. And that's when things kind of clicked. And so we ended the call and I Googled her name and an IMDB page shows up and I was like, oh, she was tree flower on angry beavers, which I watched. And she was on Admiral monsters and you was on friends. And then I Googled you. And I was like, oh my gosh, he is a writer. And then that's, that's how I approached it was on the next call. Right?

Michael (24:13):

Because you, we owed you so much. Cynthia's like, no, oh my husband, he's happy to help you be more than happy to talk to you about TV and screenwriting and all that stuff. And because of that, because of what you had done, you're attitude, which was, let me give, give, give, now we feel indebted to you and we wanna help you back. And that's how you and I, Mel met. And that's how you ultimately broke into the business. Cause I, I wound up getting you, uh, jobs on two of the shows that I was on. Yep. Right? Yep. Yep. And that's how you got it. And it wasn't because you asked for you didn't beg me, you didn't ask me for anything you gave first and I returned. Yeah.

Phil (24:47):

And, and you know, I'm, I, I am grateful for that. Again, none of that comes from a place of you owe me because I did. Right. Right. Look what I've done for you. It's simply what can I do? And to that same point on that first show where I was a, a PA I was day playing as I've talked about on other episodes. And they ultimately brought me in to be the office PA and I did the same thing. I said, what skill sets do I have to serve the people above me? Like how can I go in this extra time? And I approach it from this perspective, again, like I'm not in a union, there's no one dictating what I can and can't do. And so ultimately I look at it as I have sold 12 hours of my day to these people. Like, I have sold my time. They own me for 12 hours. So what can I do in the next 12 hours to be so productive that they want to keep me around? And I still get my bosses from that first job from Rhett & Link. They call me five years later and they offer me things. Right. Hey, and it's like, Hey, my buddy asked me if I know someone who wants to have this job, no experience to, they're willing to train. I thought of you immediately. Right, right. That kind of stuff. Yeah.

Michael (25:52):

Doors open that way. Right.

Phil (25:53):

Yeah. And so, you know, as I thought a lot about this, and we talked about this in your, in your private group, in your course, um, recently, but there's some questions that I think of, and I would encourage anyone in this situation to go through. So what can I do to serve this person? Like whoever it is, like, whether it's, you know, Carrie Clifford, who's a writer on her on Tacoma, FD. Like she loves tuna. She absolutely loves tuna, but she's also very picky about her tuna. And so I literally kept a whiteboard list of her favorite tuna places. So whenever I'd go around to get lunch, if it was her day to decide, I would remind her which place she liked her tuna from. Right, right. Right.

Michael (26:28):

Little things. Right.

Phil (26:29):

Yeah. Like one of the writers, like these very specific smoked, um, pistachios from Whole Foods. So I would go outta my way to pick those up for him so that he had something he liked in the room. Yeah. And it's not, it's not kissing butt, but it's not sucking up it's again, how can I serve this person? Right. Yeah. Because.

Michael (26:47):

Yeah. Yeah. And that comes, that comes and, and that exactly that comes, it helps it's it's in your own best interest to, to do stuff like that. Right. But people don't think of it like that. They just don't.

Phil (26:57):

They think of it as it seems like a lot of people think of it as how I being taken advantage of,

Michael (27:02):

Or they think advantage of me, or it's also like, what can you do for me? I, I, I need you to help me, help me break into Hollywood, help me, help me, help me instead of the other way around, which is, let me help you.

Phil (27:13):

Yeah. And so, to, to answer that question, the next thing I would ask myself is what are my unique skill sets, right? What, what are my hobbies, passions, and, and what do I have? That's valuable to my chain of command, like thinking up the chain of command, whether it's, you know, I'm the writer's PA and I report to the script coordinator, how can I make the script coordinator's job easier? Mm-hmm how can I do this? And, and I think this mindset a really good way to think about this. I had the opportunity to speak at, uh, a business college a couple years ago. And I sat in, in the class, they just said, I did a presentation for some friends of mine, about a business that I was managing at the time. And the professor said, the best thing you can ask in an interview is how can I relieve a burden, this, a burden off of your shoulder?

Phil (27:59):

What burdens can I relieve from your shoulders? Right. And it seemed a very formal way to think about it. But if you approach everyone above you with that mindset, like, what burdens do you have? Like, how can I help carry some of the weight here? They will gladly give that to you. Yeah. Because it's, and it catches people off guard too, because it's not likely. And so here's just an example of that. So for a wrap gift for season three of Tacoma, um, we got the idea of doing a yearbook. Well, I happened to be on the yearbook staff for two years in my high school. Like, and that I graduated in 2004. Right, so this was 2002, three and four that I was on the staff. I don't remember technically how to use InDesign. I played a little bit with it since, but it came up and I was volunt-told I had to do this.

Phil (28:44):

And someone was like phone it in, just get a template offline. And there was a very low expectation of this, but what I said is if I'm gonna do this, just let me do it. Right. So I literally, we set up a photo booth. I brought my camera, I took photos of everyone on the staff. We had COVID there monitoring to make sure we were safe. I went through, I photo edited every single one of those. I built the design and the layout inside of InDesign. And I worked with, um, Cindy, our, our 2nd AD, who was taking photos of everyone, all season. And we built an actual hardbound yearbook that we gave to every member of the staff. Right. And it was something that, you know, the people who were in charge of building these gifts, like the production supervisor, the, you, the, the UPM the, uh, Production Office Coordinator, they were grateful that I went the extra mile because it took something and leveled it up. Yeah. Right. But furthermore, and I think this is another key aspect. I went and did extra work to find a place where I could go and save them money, which enabled them to give these really cool heated jackets to everybody. Right. If figure out one of those. Right. I did get one of those. We had the ability to upgrade that, to like a jacket with a heater in it, because I was able to save like three grand on the printing cost by doing this extra stuff.

Michael (29:58):

Right. Right. I didn't know that.

Phil (29:59):

Just little, little, little things that, you know, that you've, you know, acquired throughout life. They go a long way. Like I was listening to another podcast and there was another writer who said, she went in into an interview and she had done her research on IMDB. And she's like, oh, I didn't know you wrote on this show. I really liked that. And the writer's like, well, I actually didn't write on that. That's a mistake on my IMDB and writer was embarrassed. And then afterwards, she went and using her knowledge of IMDB pro fixed their listings, and then emailed them and say, Hey, I just wanna apologize for my mistake. I just wanna let you know, I took care of it for you. Right. And she got hired on that show because she was willing to go that extra mile. Yeah. And she solved a problem for her boss that wasn't even her boss yet. Yeah.

Michael (30:42):

Yeah. Isn't that great. Yeah. Yeah. People don't think like, most people don't think that way, but if you can get into that mindset, like doors will open.

Phil (30:50):

Yeah. And, and like another example, it's like little things. Like one of the Whowrunners came to me and said, Hey, I need to get 13 binders, three, three ring binders, one for every episode. And they're like, and I don't like the D ring, give me a, a full ring. I wrote down my notes. And then I went out and got them. And I, I didn't know what color he wanted. And so I came back and I said, uh, what color do you want? And he said, um, I think, I think he actually wanted a big binder at this time for just, uh, the notes. Um, later I, I got, I got a lot of binders. He really likes binders and highlighters. Yeah. But bold me, like I got these two binders and I was like, I didn't know which color he would want. I got three, I got two black and one white.

Phil (31:30):

And he came out and said, which color do you want? He said, uh, I don't know, black. And I had it ready. I pulled it out. And I already had all the separators, had everything ready and I gave it to him. And I remember he walked into the kitchen where you were, and I overheard him saying, "man, that guy is really good. Like he got it." And then you sang my praises to him. Yeah. But it like a little thing just, which is a stark difference in the previous PA who told him he couldn't have sushi when

Michael (31:53):

He wanted it. Yeah. Yeah. It's just do it with a smile and do just yeah. And all these doors open. Exactly. And so, yeah, I think it's a wonderful, that's not just a lesson for, or Hollywood. It's just a lesson for life, I think. Right.

Phil (32:06):

Yeah. And then to your point, which you talked to a lot of people about, it's like be nice to everyone because everyone knows everybody is a small town. Yeah. These things get around.

Michael (32:15):

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Cool. All right.

Phil (32:19):

So, well, any other thoughts about like path to break into Hollywood? I know you've got a lot of content or social media. You talk about like mail room, which, you know, people accuse of being like an eighties strategy, like yeah. But still works. I know friends, who've grown through the mail room to become agents. Yeah.

Michael (32:33):

And so like, so I, right. So I post, I try to post, I think I do so far daily posts on Instagram @MichaelJaminWriter. And I post about Hollywood, had a break into Hollywood. And so I did one post about, you know, working in a mail room and an agency and how that's a great way to break in. And then I got all these like trolls, I don't know if their trolls or just jerks or whatever. There's like, man, you know, you ever hear a email dude? I was like, well, how do parcels come? When do parcels come through email? Or do they get delivered somewhere? You know? So just jerks, just trying to like, I, I don't know, like, okay, with that attitude, with that attitude, you're never gonna get anywhere in life.

Phil (33:09):

Well, you've already, you've given up. Yeah. Right. If you're always looking at the negative you've you've given up on, you're not gonna make it. Yeah. Cause you've already decided you are right.

Michael (33:18):

You've already. Exactly. And it's, it's, self-fulfilling prophecy. There's one woman. I, I had to post and she posted about how Hollywood is an awful place. And uh, people were, she was a PA I, I mentioned it was this post about how to get a job as a PA. And she's like, uh, yeah, P I was a PA don't listen, this guy, I was a PA and people were mean to me. And they were obnoxious and rude and like, listen, I don't know what show she was on. Maybe they were, uh, maybe they were mean and rude to her. Okay. So go get a job at Starbucks. That's a job. That's easier to get. You'll make the same amount of money. And I guarantee you, people will be mean and rude to you. The customers will be mean and rude to you either way it's gonna happen.

Michael (33:53):

So why don't you do it in the area that you want advance in, in Hollywood? Like, what is your problem? Like, okay. People are mean that's life, man. So what do you wanna get your goal? And someone else had another comment and she was, you know, wow. All that. I think it was a woman, all that just to be for all that work and hard effort, just to be a PA, he was like, no, it's not to become a PA it's to become a writer or a producer or a director like PA this is just a temporary job. Yeah. It's all this work for this temporary stepping stone.

Phil (34:21):

Yeah. You know, I had a really good conversation because I've been a PA for six years or so now at this point, and I'm 30 gonna be 36 this year. And I have a wife and kids and, you know, it's, it, it's a grind and it can feel a little heavy.

Michael (34:34):

But in fairness, you you've had opportunities to do other production work, but you just don't want it cuz you want to stay in the screenwriting path.

Phil (34:41):

Correct. I have turned down post-production coordinator jobs. I've, I've done, I've done some other stuff. I was a post PA on a, on a film, like I've done other things. Right. But ultimately the, the niche I've carved for myself is writer. Cuz that's what I want to do. Right. And if other doors open beyond that, after producing directing and great, but right now my purpose plan is to be a writer. Right. Right. So, um, I lost my train of thought.

Michael (35:09):

Because I Interrupted you. But the point is that we were talking about how it's just, it's just a stepping stone and you've been doing PA for a while, but it's not because you have to it's cuz you want right. So,

Phil (35:16):

So I remember now, so I kind of bro, I kind of privately one night, we're shooting super late. Um, it's uh, Friday, we're going into a "Fraturday", which means you're shooting into Saturday morning. So your Friday, Saturday blend. Um, and I was like talking to one of my bosses about, you know, yeah man, I'd really love to get that next step. I just don't know how to approach it. And they said, well, what you have to understand is that people see hard work and they see loyalty and they see effort and they reward that and she said, it's important to know that. Yeah. You're not asking for things, but there will be a time when you get an ask. And when that ask comes, make sure you ask for it. You have to put yourself out there. Yeah. But in general you get the ask because you're not asking.

Phil (35:55):

And I was like, oh, like, and, and it may not seem like it, but people reward hard workers because, and, and I think the word she said is we recognize what we have with you. And I was like, oh, that's a very kind compliment. But I think it goes back to this mindset of how can I cert and I'm by far not the only person, the production secretary on our show and the other office PA the exact same attitude to the point that our boss on our last day, when we wrapped and we were closing up the stages, she said, I would be happy to work with you any other time on any other show, if you, any of you need jobs, please let me know. Yeah. That's great. Cause, cause we all had that attitude. Yeah. And it made it easier because we were all serving each other too. Yeah. Yeah, it does. So good. We talked a lot. We got a lot of stuff in this. This was an informative episode. I think

Phil (36:56):

This has been an episode of Screenwriters Need to Hear This with Michael Jamin and Phil Hudson. If you'd like to support this podcast, please consider subscribing leaving a review, and sharing this podcast with someone who needs to hear today's subject. If you're looking to support yourself, I encourage you to consider investing in Michael's screenwriting course at MichaelJamin.com/course. I've known Michael for over a decade. And in the past seven years, I've begged him to put something together. During the global COVID-19 pandemic. Michael had time. And I have to say, I wish I'd had this course 10 years ago. As someone who has personally invested in most online courses, earned a bachelor's degree, and actively studied screenwriting for over a decade, this course has been more valuable to me than most of the effort I've put in because it focuses on something no one else teaches: story. In his course, Michael pulls back the curtain and shows you exactly what the pros do in a writer's room and that knowledge has made all the difference for me. And I know it will for you too. You can find more information at MichaelJamin.com/course for free daily screenwriting tips. Follow Michael on Instagram, Facebook, and TikTok @MichaelJaminWriter. You can follow me on Instagram, Facebook, and TikTok @PhilAHudson. This episode was produced by Phil Hudson and edited by Dallas Crane. Until next time, keep writing.

In this bonus episode, Michael Jamin shares a live reading of Merry Jewish Christmas, an essay from Michael's upcoming book A Paper Orchestra.

Show Notes

Michael's Screenwriting Course - https://michaeljamin.com/course

Free Screenwriting Lesson - https://michaeljamin.com/free

Learn More About A Paper Orchestra - https://michaeljamin.com/story

Michael: (00:00)

Hi, it's Michael Jamin. We have a bonus podcast episode for you today. Uh, as many of you know, I'm working on a collection of personal essays called a paper orchestra, and I was recently invited to read one of them aloud at a public event called strong words. And so the story I wrote and read is called Merry Jewish Christmas. I hope you enjoy it. You're listening to screenwriters need to hear this for, with Michael Jamin

Michael: (00:27)

Story called, uh, Mary Jewish Christmas. And it's AER from my upcoming book, a paper orchestra growing up Jewish. I learned early on that Christmas was the greatest party I'd never be invited to. There were would be no Santa coming down. My chimney, no chestnuts. Roasting on an open fire, no house wrapped in twinkling lights. They made Christmas tantalizing. no wonder Joseph and Mary were camped out of the neighbor's lawn. They were hoping to get a ticket inside. Sadly, the Christmas rules were very clear. No Jews. Yeah. The best I could do was hunker down until January 1st. When baby new year would shove baby Jesus out of the way, a baby fight. That's what I was.

Michael: (01:15)

As a child, I recall going to the supermarket where a have yourself, a very Merry Christmas playing on a loudspeaker. Oh, that heartbreakingly beautiful song. My people were already predisposed to depression. Do we really need this as well? a chef with a pension for cookie-based architecture, the glorious gingerbread house, the size of a fire hydrant with its gumdrop tile, roof, and frosting frosted windows. This wasn't a mere representation of Christmas. It was Christmas itself. I wanted to live in it. if only I could shrink down to the size of a green army man and crawl inside. I'd barricade the door by licking peppermints together, sticking like cement blocks. Anyone who dared poked their head in would get a sharpened candy, came to the, a warning to any would-be intruder that this Christmas Jew was here to stay.

Michael: (02:08)

I wasn't allowed to linger as my mother was in a hurry to ingredients for our upcoming holiday dinner comic grabbed and pulled me to the Jewish culinary destination, the potato band I'm making LACAs in my mother. And she carefully hand-selected each bland lifeless rock that would roll downhill into our stomachs. somewhere along the way, my ancestors had managed to take a perfectly good breakfast. The pancake removes the delicious doughy part and replace it with an edible tube or fried and grease. And we're gonna top them with apple sauce sheet, half of the added apple sauce. What am I? 80 frosty the snowman standing on the checkout aisle. Wasn't making me any less jealous with his corn car pipe and his eyes of coal. He was scrappy and delightful. what religion wouldn't wanna claim him for our own is frosty Christian.

Michael: (03:14)

I asked my mother, are you kidding me? He probably dries a Camaro. And she went back to belt to be honest, this whole Hanukah thing needed rethinking. Part of the problem is that you couldn't hype its arrival because it never felt on the same day. The Jewish calendar is lunar. Not solar. Sometimes Hanukah would land near Christmas. Other times it came shockingly early. Hey, did you know Hanukah falls on November 30th this year, November over sake. as it stood, I'd have to admire Christmas from afar until one Eve on foggy Christmas Eve. When I managed to experience Christmas as an insider, it happened while on vacation in the Amish country, Pennsylvania. It was my father's idea to introduce us to culture instead of taking us someplace good, like Disney world we checked in at a nearby resort. That was the vacation spot in 1958 once upscale and chic, the hotel had fall into disrepair. Yes, a fire roared in the lobby, but I can only imagine it was fueled by a mountain of status and safety violations. luckily, whatever money they saved in sprinkler upgrades that might save our lives was spent on Christmas decorations. That brought wonder to my Hebrew eyes flex of silver and gold were splayed everywhere, and they had a name for it. Tin learned other words too. The aging pianist in the lobby sang of magical creatures that were half reptile and half bird called turtles. They sounded tank .

Michael: (05:06)

There was a log called a U and an a bowl. There was a knock the pleasure was insane. On Christmas morning, we awoke to find fresh snowfall on the ground. Just let the movies promised my sister and I got quickly dressed and raced downstairs to so the Christmas tree like you're supposed to and they're handing out presents to a hoard of waiting. Children was a big man himself. Jo Saint Nick, go get one urge my mother, but we're Jewish he doesn't know that he's probably drunk go before my mother nudged me. I approached just as Santa was being handed a fresh stack of presence from one of the elves who I now recognized as our bus boy from last night's dinner. I said nothing though. We were both keeping secrets. admittedly, I took pleasure receiving a present from Santa Claus and the fact that I might be depriving a deserving Christian child, just because he was late getting to the lobby.

Michael: (06:06)

Didn't bother me in the slightest . Did that make me a bad person or had I already crossed that line? When I told Santa my name is Tim, I rushed to a quiet part of the lobby to unwrap my Christmas bounty. I was certain mine contained the perfect gift. The moment before unwrapping any gift is always magical because that's when the present is at its highest potential. It could be anything you wanted it to be. I suppose the same could be said about a Jewish child out to experience Christmas for the first time. Just imagine. And now imagine my disappointment. When I discovered what lie beneath the wrapping, it was a bargain rack board game that the hotel picked up at that thrift store. It was like Santa had known all along and he knifed me right in the Jewish gut.

Michael: (06:58)

And although I don't recall the exact name of this board game for the sake of things, let's just call it abject disappointment by Parker brothers. . I had betrayed my heritage by pretending to be Christian and for what a lousy board game to this day, Christmas morning holds an unsettling stillness for me when most of the population is inside unwrapping presents and spreading good cheer. We Jews wander the city, just like chase Joseph and Mary searching for a destination that will take us in. Usually it's a Chinese restaurant. So that's exactly what Cynthia and I did with our daughters. On Christmas day, it's strange to have a restaurant almost entirely to yourself. Even if you're with someone there's a loneliness to it, you can hear it in the silence. At least that's how I felt when our Mohu vegetables arrived. We sat at the window tables, staring outside where not even a mouse was stirring and closer to the door was an older couple who had grappled with a similar feeling, but ordered the noodles instead for a moment, the woman and I made eye contact on any other day, we may have both looked away, but this was Christmas, even though we were strangers, I think we wanted to share a feeling of connection or at least acknowledge our sense of isolation.

Michael: (08:28)

She gave me a smile that said, eh, what are you gonna do? When our meal was over, I ordered a serving of moon cake. Not much just a little sweetness to help enjoy the day as I ushered my family out the door. I set it down on the women's table, Merry Jewish Christmas. I said Merry Jewish Christmas

Michael: (08:55)

To you too.

Michael: (09:01)

Hi, it's Michael. Thank you so much for listening. I hope you enjoyed that story again. It's from my upcoming collection of personal essays called a paper orchestra. It's, uh, gonna be published soon and I hope you will consider joining my newsletter so that when it's you can go get it. I'm not gonna spam you. I'm not gonna sell you a bunch of stuff. You can unsubscribe whenever you want. It's just to be notified of my public events and, and things that I'm working on. So to sign up, just go to MichaelJamin.com/story, enter your email address. And again, I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna sell it or trade it or do all this nasty stuff your email's safe with me. All right. Thank you so much for considering it and, uh, Merry Jewish Christmas.

Michael & Phil tackle the subject of writer's rooms, how writer's staffs are organized, and the responsibilities of individual writers at each level. Learn more about the different jobs in a TV writer's room and some interesting ways to break-in.

Michael's Screenwriting Course - https://michaeljamin.com/course

Free Screenwriting Lesson - https://michaeljamin.com/free

Jim Serpico, EP of Maron - https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0785351/

Tom Sellitti, EP of Maron - https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0783418/

Javier Grillo-Marxuach Website - http://okbjgm.weebly.com/

Netflix in Albuquerque - https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-05-03/why-hollywood-is-moving-to-albuquerque

“Shit My Dad Says” Twitter Show - https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1612578/

Michael: (00:00)

The next step below, that would be writer's PA and that stands for a production assistant. So the writer's PA usually, usually writers are veal. We are kept hostage in a, in a writer's room like for hours and hours and hours, you don't leave, but they bring you lunch. And when they bring you lunch, that person who is bringing you lunch is a hero because they're feeding you and you, you know, so that the writer's PAs is usually the one who goes out. On a running brings you lunch.

Michael: (00:32)

Welcome back everybody today. We're going to be talking about various creative jobs in Hollywood, and we're going to probably start, I think, with, with the writer's room. Cause there's a lot of myths that we're going to expose. I think it's a lot of people have misconceptions about how writer's rooms, um, you know, how they actually work. I fell.

Phil: (00:48)

Yeah. And, and, you know, to, to your point, I think there are a lot of people who don't even understand things like what a showrunner is or what the difference between a co-producer, producer, a story editor, all these different writer's terms. I once had a friend mentioned to me, she's a nurse. She wanted to be an actress. And she's just like, you know, when you watch a TV show and you see all the credits that they're getting that say producer, they're all just writers. And she said it like, it was condescending a little, this is like just writers, like, Okay.

Michael: (01:13)

She's right, unfortunately. Um, but yeah, so a showrunner is the boss and a TV show in a movie. Uh, the director is Boston. A TV show that the showrunner is the boss. The showrunner is the head writer. Usually the showrunners, the creator of the show, the person who sold it, but not always and often not always the case. So, um, a number of times my partner would have been showrunners and we didn't create that show where the hired hands, because we have experience and were brought on to run the writer's room and the writer's room can consist of, we've been on show, usually around eight writers, let's say, but we've been on shows where we've had as few as four writers. And when we were on King of the Hill, that was Maron. When we were on King of the Hill, uh, there were about 20, at least 20 writers it was a huge writing staff.

Michael: (02:00)

So there's, there's that. And then all the writers in the writer's room compose the writing staff, but there certainly there are different levels to, to writers. So the showrunner again is the boss, the showrunner decides what kind of stories to tell and how to tell them. And some people, I guess I can maybe I'll get to the misconceptions first. Some people think that well, so where do you get these ideas from? Does the network just tell you what stories they want to have? And no, cause there's no one at the network who knows how to do that. If they did, they'd be writers there, that's not their job. Right. They, you know, so we pitched them our ideas, but we come up with the ideas. We say, we're going to do an episode about X, blah, blah, blah. And then that works. Does that sounds good?

Michael: (02:39)

Go ahead and do it. And so we have to come up with the ideas and usually it's the writing staff that will pitch the ideas to the showrunner and the showrunner and say, okay, I like that one. Let's talk about that one. Let's turn that. Let's see if we can turn that into an episode or I like the beginning, but not the middle, you know? And so let's stretch it out. Is that that's how do we break that into a story? And another myth I heard all the time, well, years ago it was like, oh, what character? I was around. It came when I was on King of the Hill. They'd say, what character do you write for as if like every writer was responsible for one character's voice. And there are 20 of us and king of the hill. I don't know how many, there were like five characters or whatever, or maybe more there's cause there's periphery characters.

Michael: (03:16)

But so no. And I used to tell people, I used to write for the dog, the dog, obviously didn't talk or have any lines, but that's when I said, but you write for all the cat, your job is to you get an episode and you write all the characters and that episode. And that's how, that's how it works. And they're so the staff, the writing staff is composed of one or two showrunners usually. And then there's certain levels of writers. So the newest baby writer is called a staff writer. That's the person with no experience. They just broke into Hollywood. Usually, usually they're a staff writer then above them. They, they say they work for a year. They get a promotion. Now they're called a Story Editor. And you'll see that at the end of the credits off. And you see the story that, or it gets a credit.

Phil: (03:57)

Let me ask this question, because this is something that came up on another podcast. We did, you made a reference that all of these titles that you're probably going to go through right here, that the next year. So are you a staff writer, your first year writing and then you bump a story editor usually, or you're so bad that you could stay staff writer. Is that a chance or do you just lose your job at that point?

Michael: (04:20)

Sometimes? Yeah. You could lose your job if you're no good. Sometimes you'll be a staff writer on the on one year and then the show gets canceled and then you get another job in a different show and they make you repeat your staff writer. They say, yeah, you're not getting the bump because we don't have a budget.

Phil: (04:34)

The bump budget-based. I imagine usually.

Michael: (04:37)

Yeah. I don't know if too many people who had a repeat staff it's like repeating your first year of college, I guess. Right.

Phil: (04:45)

I got held back in preschool by the way. So

Michael: (04:47)

Yeah. Well, I can tell it's obvious when I talk to you.

Phil: (04:49)

Yeah. The adults don't set your kids in preschool in the middle of the year, guys. They just look stupid when all their friends move on.

Michael: (04:55)

For the rest of the let's talk about it. Um, so then after a story editor to become Executive Story Editor back in the sixties, the Executive Story Editor, or was they, that was the boss I'm executive story editor mean that was basically being called the showrunner, but these titles have changed over the years. And so executive story at a restorator is at one point it was like the most important person. And now it's one of the least important people on the staff. Um, I remember when I, well, I remember when I had, I had a writing teacher and he was, he like, he wrote on, uh, uh, Get Smart and Andy Griffith Show and all those great shows and Twilight Zone, the original Twilight Zone and all that. And he used to say that you just need to, you got to impress the story. It, the story editors that want to makes all the decisions. And, and this is back in like, you know, the nineties, I was like my old man, what are you talking about? The Story Editors at title has long since changed.

Phil: (05:47)

Uh, so I was going to ask, so my understanding here is that this changed because cause you're about to get into the producer titles, right? Yeah. So my understanding is that this changed because the story, the writing credit positions pay specific portions of their money into the WGA funds, but the producorial fees you get do not.

Michael: (06:10)

Yeah separately.

Phil: (06:10)

And the benefit to the, to the network and the studios is they don't have to match percentages of those funds, to the Writers Guild stuff .

Michael: (06:19)

To your health and pension. Right. It's separate. Exactly.

Phil: (06:23)

Where it changes, like how do we get these people and entice them to do this thing with us without having all the other expensive paying percentages of their, their fees?

Michael: (06:31)

Yeah. We'll give them a fancy title. Yeah. That'll tide them over there. Stupid. Um, so yeah, so there's executives. So is it okay to repeat Staff Writer, Story Editor, Executive Story Editor, then you get Co-Producer and then you become Producer and then you're like, wow, Producer, it's really just another level for a writer. Then you get, uh, after Producer becomes Supervising Producer, then Co-Executive Producer, which often means the number two, the number two writer, the like the number two in command and then Executive Producer. And so in sometimes there's also another title of Consulting Producer, which is just a fancy way of paying you even less money. Got it. So, but those are all just writers and there's very, you know, the producer aspect of those jobs are very limited. So when you're executive producer, you have, you do have many other Producer titles, like your responsibilities, you'll be responsible for casting or post-production... Supervising post production, or maybe editing stuff like that. The Co-Executive Producer doesn't often do those things, but is capable of doing those things.

Phil: (07:33)

And that's what you currently are on the show.

Michael: (07:36)

On Tacoma FD I'm a Co-Executive Producer. Right. But, but you know, in the past I've been Executive Producer on other shows. So, uh, you know, the difference in money there's a lot its not that much. Well, the Co-Exec... Co-Executive Producer that gets a good salary without all the stress of being executive producer. It's a good job to it's really the best job to have is a co-executive producer because he made good money, but you don't have all the stress of the boss.

Phil: (07:59)

Got it. So that's what to aspire to is not be the showrunner, but just be a co you'd be.

Michael: (08:03)

I remember years ago when I was, you know, thinking before I became a Showrunner, I was like, man, if I were a show runner, I'd do things different, do things better. And then, you know, cause you always think your bosses know what you're doing, they're they're doing. And then, then you become the boss and you're like, Ugh, I just wish I was a Co-Executive Producer.

Phil: (08:21)

Yeah. You always wish you had the less responsibility, the more, you know, the more, you know, you don't know. Right? Yeah.

Michael: (08:26)

So, but then, you know, those jobs basically at my level, like those, the two jobs I get, you need to be the boss or the second in command. So there's, I have to take whatever, whatever comes.

Phil: (08:36)

Now there is another executive producer on the show and that's typically the, basically the guy in charge of, or the woman, the person in charge of making sure that the show is happening from an actual producorial perspective. Right? So not always. So the production. So for example, to come at di we had a production company running things and the owner of that company had the title of EP as well. And that shows up in the credits and that person can be not a writer.

Michael: (09:03)

And I believe, I believe one of the, uh, managers, David Miner, I believe he's also executive to

Phil: (09:09)

Both of, both of the guys managers are on our show. They have EP credits because they brought the show to the network and said, we think you should buy this show.

Michael: (09:19)

Yeah. They help make it. They help sell it. They help make it possible. Yeah. But on other shows, I've worked on this. There's really only there aren't too many co uh, Executive Producers is their Showrunner and maybe no other executive producers, or maybe there's an actor who is so powerful to help got the show me, they might be Executive Producer or maybe often if the show is, is sold through a pod, you have a production company, then they'll get, you know, like you're saying, they'll have a Executive Producer title. Uh, yeah. So some actually that's not really no. And I say that now that I think about it. Yeah. I've always, I've been on other shows where there, there are other executive not they're called non-writing Executive Producers. So when I was on Maron, for example, uh, Jim Serpico, Tom Silletti, they were non-writing Executive Producers. They helps sell the show and their creative involvement in the show. It really depends on what their, what they have time for. Sometimes they're very involved in, sometimes they're not very involved at all.

Phil: (10:12)

Yeah. Okay. So that's an interesting note. I think, so those people have the same way now from an Office PA perspective. So during production, we still saved those people parking spots, and we understood who they were. And we made sure that they were included on every single email, every single notice that went out, anything that involved creative decisions, they were invited to all meetings. And it was always an understanding they could show up at any time, but also an expectation that they probably weren't going to show up. And so it's an interesting thing like, or, you know, one season of a show, I worked on the, one of these non writing Executive Producers showed up and our Office Production Coordinator didn't know who they were and it, but the secretary did luckily. So they were able to save that situation or it probably would have been a really, you know, egg on the face situation.

Michael: (11:00)

Yeah. Because sometimes they don't show up. Right. The homes that parking spot is empty all year. Yeah. But you know, sometimes they do show up cause they, yeah. So those are all, those are all creative jobs. So when you see at the front of a TV show, all those producers, like what are all these producers? Most of them are writers. And then some producers, there was always a couple of, there's a Line Producer, he'll get he, or she will get a producer title. And they're in charge of kind of, uh, they're in charge of the, the money and the budget. If, for example, the show runner says, Hey, I want to shoot a show, um, in a submarine. And like, I bet, you know, how do you make that happen? Well, the line producer, their job is to figure out how to make that happen to either rent a submarine or get a soundstage that looks like a submarine or tell you what, that's just too expensive. You can have to shoot it in a rowboat.

Phil: (11:43)

Right. Right. Yeah. And then, so there's a Line Producer and then a Unit Production Manager or UPM. Yeah. But there are different jobs or they are, or they're at the same job because I see it both ways I've seen it separated or they're the same person does both. Yeah,

Michael: (11:57)

Yeah. Yeah. And I, yeah, that's exactly right. And I don't, I don't really know what the difference is. Job responses, uh, job responsibilities are between the two, because on the shows that I've worked on, they've mostly been the same person. So.

Phil: (12:09)

Yeah. It's, I think it's just a level of authority and responsibility. So UPM is typically making the decisions to make sure everything happens in the line producer. My understanding is basically in charge of the budget and making sure you're not blowing the budget every episode and you can get to the end of the road and they're like your accountant almost, I guess you could say as the showrunner. Right.

Michael: (12:27)

Um, but we still have accountants.

Phil: (12:28)

We all see cameras like a CPA. Like they're like the CPA who says, we're a business manager, Hey, you need to cut your expenses here because yeah. This thing coming down the road.

Michael: (12:36)

Yeah. Often they'll negotiate, they'll, there'll be dealing with the unions and they, they, uh, they make sure that the show, they make sure that the physical production of the show actually happens. Yeah.

Phil: (12:46)

So, so, so this brings up what we're discussing here might be considered "above the line". Yeah. Goes right. Yeah. And, um, you know, we recently had an interesting conversation with someone who did not like the title above the line and also

Michael: (12:59)

A derogatory

Phil: (13:01)

It's like, you know, the union negotiates those things. So your union is responsible for earning you those credits and signing what goes where yeah,

Michael: (13:10)

I think it's, I think actually it's just like where you appear on the call sheet. It's like, are you above this line or below this line? That was my understanding. It's like, and it's just, it's just the line, relax everybody you're on. It doesn't mean, you know, you deserve to die, you know? Right. It's just an, it's a, basically an accounting formality. Yeah. Right.

Phil: (13:29)

Yeah. Okay. But, but you do not have control over who does that? Just to clarify, because this person seemed to think that you, in your role as an Executive Producer, Showrunner have the ability to dictate through your use of language who gets called what? So people aren't offended.

Michael: (13:44)

Yeah, yeah. No, I, I walked into, you know, it's so strange. It's like I walk into these terminologies, these, these, the terminologies were decided before me. And, uh, and somebody has someone thought that they were just very offended by that. And I'm perpetuating some kind of, I don't know, egregious, uh, you know, offense in Hollywood.

Phil: (14:01)

And not to get like super into the weeds on this subject. But I do know, um, this season on Tacoma FD, either production company did require us to use gender neutral terminology for things. So this is like a term for like the Best Boy or Best Boy Grip or Best Boy Lighting. And now that's like Key Lighting Person and it's like a term, um, different things instead of form. And it was for a person. And so I understand those things, but when we're talking about literally anyone below the line is garbage and trash and we stop and use it, that's not exactly what's going on in this space.

Michael: (14:31)

No, those people are kind of important because they're writers the above the line. People like maybe we were the dreamers that, Hey, what if, and the other people, the ones who are doing it, so you can't just have dreamers on set. They don't that nothing will get done.

Phil: (14:43)

Yeah. Right. It's like, uh, I, I did hear an example on another show I worked on where they're like, they want us to have 50 people with the exact same haircut sitting in a restaurant. It's like, you don't understand the complexity of, of casting that the complexity of finding those people, the hair and makeup, the costs for extra pay. Like we got you 10 of those people not 50. Right, right. Yeah. So, so those are all the, so those are all the jobs that are just the ones that you've talked about. And those that basically to get into Hollywood, you have to start as a Staff Writer.

Michael: (15:16)

Hi guys, it's Michael Jamin. I wanted to take a break from talking and talk just a little bit more. I think a lot of you, people are getting bad advice on the internet. Many, you want to break into the industry as writers or directors or actors, and some of you are paying for this advice on the internet. It's just bad. And as a working TV writer and showrunner, this burns my butt. So my goal is to flush a lot of this bad stuff out of your head and replace it with stuff that's actually going to help you. So I post daily tips on social media, go follow me @MichaelJaminWriter. You can find me on Instagram and Facebook and TikToK. And let's be honest, if you don't have time, like just two minutes a day towards improving your craft, it's not going to happen. So go make it happen for you @MichaelJaminWriter. Okay. Now back to my previous rant.

Michael: (16:02)

And yes, then how do you start as a staff writer? There are entry-level jobs. So there's no assistant writers. People often say, well, I want to be an assistant writer on your show. It's like that doesn't exist. There are Writers Assistance. And those are the people who will sit in the writer's room and they sit at the keyboard and they literally, they usually either take notes or they type, as we, as the words go up on the, on a monitor, we're watching a screen. And so they actually type the script as we pitch lines. And so that's, um, it's, it's a kind of a high pressure job because you have to know the pro word processing program, like the back of your hand, but also you have to be a good speller because if you are not, people will make fun of you. And you know, everyone's staring at you while you do your job and like busting your balls.

Michael: (16:46)

Uh, you know, so it's a, it's a high pressure job. You have to have a good sense of humor about it. And so, but it's a great job to have because once you're in the writer's room and like, you will learn more as a Writer's Assistant than you would the tenures in film school because you're watching professional writers do their craft. So it's a wonderful, it's a great learning experience. And how do you get a Writer's Assistant job? Well, the next step below that would be Writers PA and essentially a production assistant. So the Writer's PA usually, usually writers are veal. We are kept hostage in a, in a writer's room like for hours and hours and hours. And you don't leave, but they bring you lunch. And when they bring you lunch, that person who's bringing you lunch is a hero because they're feeding you and you, you know, so that the Writer's PA is usually the one who goes out on a run and brings you lunch. This is before COVID of course, I don't know what goes, no one brings me food anymore. No one gives within six feet of me.

Phil: (17:39)

That's right. That's not in your family. Right.

Michael: (17:43)

Keep an arm, social distance kids. Um, so that's, Writer's PA and then kind of not, I wouldn't say below it, but Jason too, it would be regular PA or Set PA, which that PA works on the set. Another job would be Office PA. And that PA you know, the set PA might run errands, or it might block off the set when like, you know, when they're shooting an episode, the set PA will be on the perimeter. And you had, I'm telling you, you had this job for a while. And they're the ones who are, let's say you're shooting on New York City street. They're on the perimeter stopping traffic and people, you can't walk here. We're shooting.

Phil: (18:14)

Yeah, no. And let me point out here, the, our Locations Guy, when I said that I was locking down traffic interjecting and said, you are not allowed to do that. That is illegal. The police lock down traffic. You were there to wrangle pedestrians.

Michael: (18:29)

Whoa,

Phil: (18:29)

Interesting. Right. Because we do not have the legal authority to stop traffic, but on a closed set, that was my first day of PA work was literally standing in the hot sun out in the middle of Southern California telling cars when to drive into the scene. Yeah. But it was a closed set. And I was, I was literally doing that. And you

Michael: (18:50)

Had, you had your piece in a headsets

Phil: (18:54)

[inaudible] or there, they literally call it background and you tell them to move. Yeah. Right. You

Michael: (18:58)

Tell them that would be a set. That's one of the responsibilities of a set PA.

Phil: (19:02)

Yeah. They're responsible for getting information to everyone. Um, locking down, set for a sound. It's another very common thing where you literally post up in a doorway and you hold stop people from coming in and out because they're shooting that direction and you don't want to walk through set, like one of the first days of shooting of season two of Tacoma FD I walked onto a set and I looked right at the set PA and she didn't say anything. So I walked toward her and ended up walking right through the shot, like, yeah. And they showed it to me. They showed me a post me Sasquatching and through the background of the firehouse.

Michael: (19:36)

And that's the job of the PA supposed to stop. You I've walked on sets before to have my own show where I was Executive Producer. And I guess some PA was too nervous to tell me not to walk on set. And I walk into the shot and I ruined the shot. And I'm like, dude, you got to tell me not to walk into the shot. It's okay. You can tell, don't be afraid of me. Tell me I'm not, not tell me not to ruin the shot.

Phil: (19:53)

Didn't you tell me that there was a, uh, you had to spend like a significant amount of money and post cutting a PA out of the background and standing behind a tree or something.

Michael: (20:01)

Um, I'm sure that, yeah. I'm not sure if the PA, but I remember sometimes you have to do that we're or you cut a reflection. Sometimes you see a PA or something, or somebody is a reflection in a window. You have to take that out. Yeah. Yeah.

Phil: (20:14)

Um, so, so I've had most of these PA jobs, so that's a Set PA and then Office PA, you're the one making copies. You're the one making the signs. You're laminating things and go, go runs. You're coming on, runs and picking up stuff. You're going to Home Depot to buy specific daylight, luminescent, light bulbs for the Makeup Department, because they need specific lights in the trailer. You're getting water, you're moving things around set. You're going out on a run to Burbank to pick up Audio Equipment for the audio team. Cause they always need something. Yeah. You know,

Michael: (20:48)

It's interest. Cause I posted a little bit about that on social media. I do like these little clips and uh, and, and someone said, you have to, you, you know, I said, it's an entry-level job. It's not too hard to get. And someone said, you don't know what you're talking about. You have to have a Harvard Degree. You have to degree a degree from Harvard or an MBA. And like you already your mind, like, I can tell you need a car.

Phil: (21:07)

That's it. You need a car and you need to breathe. Right.

Michael: (21:11)

The pulse, if you, if you're dead, you're going to have, you're going to struggle. But if you have a pulse, you be okay. It's like, I don't really care. I don't need to know that you have a degree from Harvard from what do I care? I want to know. Can you go on a run?

Phil: (21:23)

Do you think that's people who just assume it's all an old boys club and you ha it's about who, you know, and it's not about like, like, oh, Harvard Alumni will hire Harvard alumni. Is it that kind of thing? Or do you think they actually think you have to be like a Rhode Scholar to be a PA?

Michael: (21:38)

No, I think there's, you know, breaking into Hollywood is hard and it's, you know, that first job, the hardest one is that first job to get in. And so you have to hustle and you really have to like, you know, send out flight. You kind of have to really be in contact with people. And you've got a nudge way in and I, and it takes a lot of work. And I think people would much rather say, well, they're not hiring people like me. Cause you know, there's an excuse as opposed to, that's not true at all. It's like, you just have to do your end to the part. You have to hustle to get the job. Yeah. You know, it's just, there's so many excuses. And like, I always say like, you can, you can have results or you can have excuses, uh, or you can have excuses or you can have results, but you can't have both. Right. And people like to have excuses. It just makes them feel better for not trying or not trying hard enough.

Phil: (22:22)

Now, now I've been on a other side of things. I think my first PA job, um, you gave my resume to a show that you were running and I didn't get that job. And I didn't get that job because your writing partner also referred someone and that person had experience. Yeah. Right. Yeah. And so I didn't get that job, but because I did so well in the interview when they needed a day player to come out and just lock down set for a day, they called me and said, Hey, it's one day job. You want to come up and sit? Absolutely. What time? Where should I be? I showed up early. I was there. I ran around set the whole day. And it just happened to be that that day, the Office PA was called back in to his Fox show and he had to leave. And so the UPM who was on set with me, watching me work said, you should consider this guy. He seems good. And I got offered a full-time position as the office PA because of that. And so it was that

Michael: (23:16)

Is that luck. Was that, was that, did you get lucky or did you make your own luck?

Phil: (23:20)

I think that there's a, there's a level of luck, you know, there's this old saying that luck is where opportunity meets preparation. Right? Right. And so the opportunity came because I knew you and you were able to give them my resume, but I didn't get that job. Someone else got that job. And they had three other people who you and your running partner did not recommend who also got jobs because they had, and that's just the racket. But because I was willing to show up and I was prepared and I understood what was expected of me as a PA, I was able to prove myself on that, on that day, the chance I go, yeah.

Michael: (23:57)

We had a PA on Tacoma, FD, we talk about, I don't mention his name, but one day one of the writers asked him to get a, for like Tylenol or Advil or something to go to drugstore. And he kind of said, no, he was busy.

Phil: (24:10)

So we should talk about that too. So, so the Writer's PA job is not just lunch. Like you're responsible for whatever the writers need. Like the Showrunners asking you for binders, but not just not binders, but D clipped binders, full ring binders, because they don't like the way the dividers are. And it's my job to go get that for them. I'm also supposed to stock the fridge. I'm supposed to have first aid available. I'm supposed to clean up after them. And so to have a Writer's PA tell a Writer I'm busy. I can't get you medicine because you have a headache. But I think it was worse than that. I think it was. Do you know if we have any, I think they have some upstairs. Can you go get some, I don't think I can do that.

Michael: (24:48)

Yeah. And man and we all laugh when he said no and you know, like men just falls in this guy. Yeah. And then he didn't last much longer than that.

Phil: (24:59)

Well, he did some other stuff I heard too. I, I ended up replacing that guy that season. Um, but he did some other stuff too. Like you told me that he would just like stare through the glass at you guys while you were watching writing stuff.

Michael: (25:12)

Yeah. He just, I had a weird thing where like, he just didn't, he'd come into the room, the Writers' Room and he just wouldn't know when to leave. And he was like, you know, and it got awkward. It's like, Hey, did you got to leave? Now? We got to work. And he would just kind of stand there. I dunno, gabbing or, you know, watching and was just so uncomfortable. And the writer, we, we thought it was hilarious. Like this guy he's something else.

Phil: (25:33)

Well, he hit the nail in the coffin. And I think this is like a big note of what not to do is one of our Showrunners who is an actor on the show is like on Nutrisystem and like cutting weight to get camera ready, because he's going to be, you know, he's effectively starving himself to look good on camera. And he's entitled to lunch more than anybody else on the show. Cause it's his show. And one day he comes in, he's like today I want sushi. And he said, uh, we don't have the budget for that. Right. And he said, I don't care. I'll approve it. Cause he's show is responsible for the budget. And he goes, I've already put in the other lunch order.

Michael: (26:11)

Yeah. That's what it was about. And that, you know, and afterwards we were busting that actor's because you know, I, you're not in charge.

Phil: (26:24)

Yeah. You'll keep your job if you, uh, if you deny your showrunner on her food, the one time he asks for it and the whole season.

Michael: (26:32)

So that guy didn't, he didn't last very long. But, uh, yeah, your, your job is to say yes, not to say no as a PA. Right.

Phil: (26:39)

Well, yeah. Well, interesting stuff. And you know, ultimately like I got that job and I think to your note, one of the first things you told me forever ago is if, you know, if you want to make it in Hollywood, you have to be in LA because that's where the jobs are. And I think there's a caveat because this is a question I've seen in a lot of your social media people say, do you have to live in Hollywood to make it in film? And the answer is depends on what you want to do. Right? So for example, I went to film school in New Mexico and New Mexico is a smaller market that is expanding ridiculously right now. I think Netflix is investing a billion dollars in New Mexico and infrastructure expanding stages. And they bought the biggest stages there where they shoot Breaking Bad and Better Call Saul and all that stuff.

Phil: (27:17)

And so if you want to work in camera or you want to work in, you know, an office position or a locations or a costume position, my opinion is those exterior markets, Utah, where you have Park City studios, you have, um, Santa Fe or Albuquerque where you have a fast growing film industry. You have Louisiana, you have Georgia. Those markets is really easy to progress and move up the ranks in those craftsmen positions. Right. Right. But when we talk about writing, I really think the answer is you do have to be an LA because this is where the writing happens.

Michael: (27:52)

Yeah. All the writing, they even Handmaids Tale. They shoot that. I think in Toronto, they sh they write it here. Um, I'm pretty sure Breaking Bad. They, they, they

Phil: (27:59)

Wrote here in LA, in LA shot, in New Mexico.

Michael: (28:02)

Right. So if you want to be a writer, then you want to be a writer's assistant and you want to be a PA here in LA. So you can come up this way. But in someone, some of them had sent me, um, a question that maybe was on Tik TOK or something. And she was, she seemed very lovely. And by, so I still let her have it. She was, um, she was like, uh, I live in the UK and I would gladly, I really want to break into the business. And I would gladly come here to LA. If someone could guarantee me a job. And I was like, you know, there's no guarantee, you know, no, one's gonna guarantee you a job. Uh, first of all, there are no guarantees in Hollywood. Right. You know, you're not, um, you know, you're, you know, you're not Brad Pitt Brad Pitt.

Michael: (28:42)

He's guaranteed to get a dressing room and, and a driver. You're a PA you have no guarantees. If you came here and got a job, let's say the show would get canceled after 10, at 10 weeks, or you get fired or whatever, you're still out of a job. Now you're out of a job. And so you're still screwed. You have to come here first. And when they're hiring for those positions, that basically for any kind of PA position, the job is like you interviewed today to start tomorrow. And so you can't fly here. We're not going to get, I'm going to give you a week to fly here. And then a week to find a place then a week to get a car because you need a car. It's like, you know, no, you have to be here for those opportunities. There's no, there's no guarantees.

Phil: (29:22)

Yeah. That's what you told me. You said you have to be here because when they want to hire someone, they need you today. Right? Yeah.

Michael: (29:27)

And I, I called you. I remember when that opportunity came up on our current show, I said, Phil, can you, can you be here this afternoon? They're hiring you. You have to be here today.

Phil: (29:35)

Yeah. I think the exact text was, um, we need a PA the job sucks. It's low pay. Do you want it? And I said, I'll do that job for free. Right. And your response. Good answer. That's how I got my first paid job. Hold on. And they're like an hour or so later the Script Coordinator. Um, so basically shot me a text said, Hey, man, uh, it looks like, you know, we'd like to use you on the show. I said, do you want my resume? He's like, no, Michael Jamin's words. Good enough. And it's because you had proved yourself at that time. Right. So they took your recommendation. And I literally showed up the next day

Michael: (30:09)

And I have a new gun

Phil: (30:10)

And I haven't been working on the show in two years. I'm still on the show.

Michael: (30:13)

And if you had 'em right. And if you had, uh, you know, said, well, yeah, I'll be there next week. They would have found somebody else. Right.

Phil: (30:20)

Because, um, literally cause they were, they were buying their own. You guys were buying your own lunch at that point, I think.

Michael: (30:25)

Yeah. Like we, like, we need lunch. Yeah.

Phil: (30:29)

Carrie Clifford's like, I want my tuna where, which tuna do I get. Yeah,

Michael: (30:32)

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And so yeah, having a good attitude and being ready to start tomorrow is, is really key. Unfortunately, that's how you, if you want to, like, if you want to work in Hollywood, you have to be in Hollywood, you know? And, and sure there are other jobs like in Atlanta and, and, uh, Albuquerque, but often, um, like it may be harder to have a career in those cities because there's just not as many opportunities. So I'm sure people, you know, piece together careers. I just think it'd be easier to piece together a career in Hollywood. There's just more options.

Phil: (31:02)

Yeah. There's constant. There shows constantly shooting, especially right now with streaming and cable. There's not like a development season. Like there used to be right. It's

Michael: (31:11)

And you may have to move, you may, I know like costumers, they work here, but they have to take a job in some other state because that's where the show is shooting, but writers generally have to generally stay in LA. Yeah.

Phil: (31:23)

Yeah. So are there any other jobs or any other ways to break in to Hollywood at this point? I mean, is it, is it just, you have to work yourself way up as a PA or get lucky enough to, you know, be lucky enough and have the craft and skill to become a Screenwriter. Is there another option?

Michael: (31:38)

We talked about this in other episodes where if you have your own, if Hollywood is not going to come to you, unless you really make it worth Hollywood's while. So if you are blowing up on Twitter, if you have a giant Twitter feed or, uh, you know, Instagram or whatever, and, and you have a million followers, Hollywood will find you, you don't have to start at The Bahamas. Like, man, this person here, she's got it going on. Uh, let's give this person to show because they have a built-in marketing platform that often happens. Yeah. So there's a show on CBS, it'd be 10 years ago. Shit My Dad says, and that was based on a popular Twitter feed. Yeah. And so, you know, that guy just tweeted it from wherever he wanted and you know, just find stuff that his dad said.

Phil: (32:19)

Got it. So I, I do, you know, of other people who've broken in, so I'm another writer who is that a lot of stuff to put stuff out there as website he's got scripts and things. Javier Grillo-Marxuach who I think you might know. Yeah. He wrote lost. Yeah. Yeah. Lost. He was a showrunner on a bunch of stuff. So he, I believe was a development executive and he transitioned that position to being a writer. Yeah. So there are those other opportunities as well. Do you know anything about those?

Michael: (32:45)

I do know. I have a friend who we hired on a show, Glen Martin DDS years ago. And I didn't know him at the time we just hired him. We became friends. And I... I discovered after about a year that he was at one point a Development Executive at a studio and I was shocked. I was like, oh, I hadn't because it's a whole, whole different thing. Um, and he told me that most development executives from his they're, they're jealous of writers. They want to be writers. And so, because it's more creative and development executives or, you know, they, they tend to give notes, uh, but they don't do it themselves. And so, cause you know, it's one of those, like why would you want to become, uh, an executive at a studio or a network if you were not had that creative passion in you, you wanted to create. And so the closer I think they can get to creating the more fulfilled they would be, which is, you know, obviously writing is probably closer to... than giving notes to

Phil: (33:35)

Somebody. That makes sense. It makes

Michael: (33:37)

Sense, but I'm, I'm not gonna speak for all that. I'm sure there are many great development executives or creative executives who love exactly their job. But this is what he told me was that he felt that that many or most really wanted to be really wished they were writers. Right.

Phil: (33:50)

And I think that, you know, from my limited perspective, with the, the limited amount of work I've done, kind of the general vibe that I get from most people is that most people in most jobs in Hollywood dreamt of being a writer, director, producer, and they are now doing this other job, hoping to have the job that you're also trying to get.

Michael: (34:13)

I think many writers also want to be directors because it's not writing. It's like, Ooh, because writing is hard. You're like, well, directing it, that seems like something I could do. Was that, was

Phil: (34:20)

That your experience when you directed on Maron?

Michael: (34:23)

Uh, no. That was just an opportunity that came our way. We didn't want to say no to it, but I know other writers who want to get into, or have gotten into directing because writing is really hard. Writing can be difficult even like, I, I used to say like, if you think writing is fun, you're kind of, you're probably doing it wrong. It's hard to do it. Right. It's hard. Yeah. And so I think a lot of writers that well, anything about writing, so.

Phil: (34:47)

Right, right. Well, awesome, man. I think it was incredibly helpful. You have any other thoughts or?

Michael: (34:52)

No, I think that's, I think we covered a lot. We have, we have more podcasts come and Phil. We got to save it for the next.

Phil: (34:57)

Oh, I love it. No. So again, you know, I think that if you want any more of this information, definitely check out Michael's course because he goes into this more detail kind of what's expected in some of those positions and what it takes. But yeah, I think the big note that I would like to give or leave people with is that you don't have to have won the lottery or be born with a silver spoon in your mouth. I sure wasn't. And I live in LA and I work full year round as a PA. And I'm actively working on progressing towards being a better writer so you can make it happen. You just have to get rid of the excuses and just take control and just make decisions with what can I do today to improve things. And we talked about this on another podcast, like I've always was raised with this prodigy syndrome.

Phil: (35:41)

I feel like I have to hit grand slams with everything I do. And there's this framework that I've transitioned to, which is, you know, it's Moneyball, it's singles singles win baseball games. If I can hit a single today, like which might just be writing something, I can hit a single today. It's not sexy. If I hit a single tomorrow, it's not sexy. If I hit a single one day three, it's not sexy, but they, for you score it run day five. You score a run. It's about chaining those singles together. And that's how you ultimately win.

Michael: (36:08)

I think so. That makes sense to me. Yeah. Like people say like, well, how do I become a writer is like, you're, if you write every day, you're a writer, right? If you want to be a paid writer, that's a little different, but you know, but if you were someone new who wrote a script last year, you're not a writer. You have someone you're someone who has written. So a writer you're constantly writing, it's active. And, and that will make, that will make you better at your craft and will increase your odds of actually becoming a professional writer.

Phil: (36:35)

Awesome. I love it. Here's a great way to end. Thank you, Michael. Thanks everybody for listening.

Michael: (36:40)

Thank you.

Phil: (36:53)

This has been an episode of Screenwriters Need to Hear This with Michael Jamin and Phil Hudson. If you'd like to support this podcast, please consider subscribing leaving a review and sharing this podcast with someone who needs to hear today's subject. If you're looking to support yourself, I encourage you to consider investing in Michael's screenwriting course at MichaelJamin.com/course. I've known Michael for over a decade. And in the past seven years, I've begged him to put something together. During the global COVID-19 pandemic. Michael had time. And I have to say, I wish I'd had this course 10 years ago. As someone who has personally invested in most online courses, earned a bachelor's degree, and actively studied screenwriting for over a decade, this course has been more valuable to me than most of the effort I've put in because it focuses on something noone else teaches: story. In his course, Michael pulls back the curtain and shows you exactly what the pros do in a writer's room and that knowledge has made all the difference for me. And I know it will for you too. You can find more information at MichaelJamin.com/course for free daily screenwriting tips. Follow Michael on Instagram, Facebook, and TikTok @MichaelJaminWriter. You can follow me on Instagram, Facebook, and TikTok @PhilAHudson. This episode was produced by Phil Hudson and edited by Dallas Crane. Until next time, keep writing.filet Hudson. This episode was produced by Phil Hudson and edited by Dallas crane until next time, keep writing.

Michael and Phil discuss what it's like to work with a writing partner, how to choose one, and what to look out for. Dive deep into Michael's background with his partner Sivert Glarum and what they did to make it in Hollywood.

Michael's Screenwriting Course - https://michaeljamin.com/course

Free Screenwriting Lesson - https://michaeljamin.com/free

Sivert Glarum’s IMDB Page - https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0321770/

Stephen Prestfield's Book - https://www.amazon.com/Nobody-Wants-Read-Your-Tough-Love/dp/1936891492

Warner Bros. Writer’s Workshop - https://televisionworkshop.warnerbros.com/writers-workshop/

Glenn Martin, DDS on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC8hzMh1WQ6t5dwbnNop2fVA

The Complete Idiot’s Guide to Screenwriting by Skip Press - https://www.amazon.com/Complete-Idiots-Guide-Screenwriting-3rd/dp/1592577555

Ted Elliott & Terry Rossio’s Screenwriting Website - http://wordplayer.com/

Michael: (00:00)

I'm always reminding myself of the basics. Cause it's really, it's funny. I remember when I was on King of the hill, having a conversation with Greg Daniels who later created the American version of The Office, but I said, Greg, there is no Writing 102. It's all Writing 101. And he's like, "Yes! That's it." Writing one. It's all writing because it is, everything is all, it's all the basics.

Michael: (00:27)

All right, everyone. Hey, welcome back today. We're going to talk about working with a partner and how to find one and had a, had a, why you want one or why you don't want one. And because I've been working with a TV, writing... A partner, I've had a partner for Jesus. We've been together, you know, close to 30 years. I don't want to date myself. It's maybe, oh, maybe almost that many years. And so we always work together. His name is Sivert Glarum and we always work together. That's how a partnership is, but it's tricky, it's a tricky thing, finding a partner. So I thought I'd elaborate on that for anyone who...

Phil: (00:57)

I think it's an interesting topic, especially for someone like myself where, you know, I've... I definitely see the value of a partner, but I also see a lot of... My experience with having to rely on other people from group projects in school, down to actually trying to lean in and trust that someone will follow through on their end. My experiences have not been great.

Michael: (01:20)

Yeah. It's a marriage. And like, marriages are not always easy. Not, not, not everyone's meant to get married to other people. So it's really, you know, I think I got lucky, um, in comedy, it's probably more, it's more advantageous to have a writing partner in comedy because when you, when you say something funny, you don't know, it's funny until someone else is laughing. You may think it's funny, but you know, until someone, your partner laughs, then you go, okay, that must be funny. Um, and I'll just talk about how we met because when I talk in comedy, it's, there's so many ways. I guess when we, when we met, we were team... We were teamed up, uh, in comedy that like some people have partners and its common to have a partner. It's common not to have a partner, but when you have a partner, you literally split a salary for the rest of your career.

Michael: (02:06)

But, but it does make you, it, in theory, it gives you the advantage of getting hired more often, because you're kind of getting two for that. You're literally getting two for the price of one. And especially when you get high up levels, you're then you're running a show. And now, you know, when you are a showrunner that you have so many responsibilities. It really helps to have someone else take some of them off your hand. And if you don't have a partner, you gotta do it all. You know, so that's, but like I said, it is tricky because you have to get along and like you're pointing out, do you, you have to, you know, you have to really get along with this person. You just have to carry your weight.

Phil: (02:40)

I think that'd be interesting to get, I'm sure we'll get into this. I think it'll be interesting to talk about kind of your division of labor as you're going through the process of how you're writing. Uh, you know, I, I've heard of different processes based on different writing partnerships, whether, you know, it's the, the Thomas Lennon, Robert Ben Garrett process of they just assign scenes. So one person takes odds and one person takes evens and as they send them back, they're continuously rewriting each other. So by the time they're done with draft one, they have 20 rewrites done. Or is it that one of you sits at the typewriter or the, excuse me, not dating myself at all, sit at the computer and like type it out while the other one dictates or does it take turns? That's an interesting...

Michael: (03:23)

And I've seen partners do it both ways with the way we do. We literally write everything together. So we will sit at the same at the, at the, uh, you know, computer and one will look at the monitor and the other will be at the keyboard and we literally type at the same. So, you know, the one, I tend to be the one who does the typing, uh, mostly because I'm a better typer than S. It is, um, and frustrating to no end when I'm watching him struggle to put a word together. But, uh, but sometimes he'll do it. And I, you know, I I'll loss it and watch. And so, uh, it's nice. It's nice to have someone drive the boat a little bit, but I'll talk about how we, how we met. We were, uh, I was signed by an agent and, uh, my, you know, few years out of college and was a very big deal for me.

Michael: (04:09)

And she blew a lot of smoke up my and she's like, I signed one baby writer a year and, uh, I make a star out of that writer this year. You're the guy and congratulations. And I was like, wow, I'm on cloud nine. And she's like, in three years, you're going to be running your own show. I was like, oh my God running. I don't even know if I can write a, you know, an episode of TV, but running. And then, you know, when the smoke cleared a couple days later, I was curious about what had happened to the previous baby writer before me. And so I got through there, I guess, through their assistant, I got the name of this guy and I called them up. He was actually two years before me and I called him up and I was like, Hey man, what, what show are you running?

Michael: (04:46)

Cause you obviously must be incredibly successful. And he's like, dude, I work at a record store. And, uh, so he hadn't gotten staffed at all. And so we decided to team up, we had, there are two reasons to team up. Uh, one, I, I, I knew enough then to know, like I was, it was hard. I knew, I knew enough to know that I didn't know enough and that we traded scripts. I was like, man, this guy is, this guy is a better writer than I was. Even though we were both signed independently and I was hotter than he was in terms of, I was the new flavor of the week for this agent. And rather than compete against each other for the same job we teamed up. And, uh, and that's how we, that's how we became partners.

Phil: (05:28)

So, so how did you broach that conversation of, um, what do you think here? Is this something that you want to do together? Like how did that conversation?

Michael: (05:36)

Yeah, I think we were both interested in writing with a partner. He like, he had a partner many years earlier who decided to get out and become a socialist, uh, that how Sivert describes it. And so we were both open to the idea and, you know, we kind of met and we hit it off. We were coming from similar backgrounds. We're both from the east coast. Sivert a couple of years older than me, but, you know, close in age, we both played the trumpet and, you know, grade school, that kind of thing. Right,

Phil: (06:02)

Right. Mastering it in heaven.

Michael: (06:04)

Yeah, but a lot of partners are just, they, you know, they tend to be, Hey, we were friends in college and we both want it. I know that happens a lot. And so let's, let's go out to Hollywood together and become writing partners. So that often, that often is the case. Sometimes you see a husband and wife has a writing partner.

Phil: (06:20)

I've, I've seen that, um, a couple of times, some pretty big names or writing partners in our couples. So, so, okay. So that's, I mean, that's a fascinating topic. I was literally just listening to, I was out on runs for our show yesterday in post-production and I had to just drive all over Hollywood and Burbank multiple times. So I started listening to a Steven Pressfield book. He wrote The War of Art, um, Turning Pro... A bunch of stuff. He he's a screenwriter who did the novel of a Legend of Bagger Vance, and also wrote the film is multiple time bestselling author been in the industry from the advertising background. And he's got this other book that I never read. And it's um, No One Wants to Read Your Shit. Pardon that? Yeah. Interesting. That's the title. And his whole point is you have to understand whether you're in advertising, writing novels, writing screenplays.

Phil: (07:07)

No one wants to read your shit. And, and so you shouldn't be like surprised when no one gets around to it. And ultimately it has to be that good that they want to read it. But he talks about how he got partnered up with this big name. And ultimately he felt like he wasn't getting a lot of the credit for what he was doing because he was the writer and the other guy was the name. And his agent sat him down. Once he said, you need to understand that right now he is the known deal because he's had hits with his other writing partner. He's had hits with you. He's the common denominator. You're a nobody. So you need to understand your role here. Now, obviously your situation's a little bit different because we were both young baby writers who partnered up, but it sounds like there's even a little bit of that because you were the hot thing for you, right.

Michael: (07:52)

It was the hot, but he was trading. Cause we traded scripts. I'm like this guy really is a really good writer. I could tell just from reading a script, like he was, he really understood story structure. And, um, he had, he had sold on his own, an episode with his previous partner an episode of the wonder years. So it was like he had, he did have a little more, you know, he had one under the belt and I had none of the under the belt, but the truth is like, and I remember in the beginning there was a struggle between us in terms of, we didn't know how to trust each other. And, and of course I wanted more of my lines in the script and his lines and, you know, back I kind of thing. And then as you get older and more mature, it's really that ego goes out the window.

Michael: (08:30)

And it's more about whoever pitches the line that will get you home sooner. That's the one you'll do, you know? It's like, I don't really, if it comes out of his mouth, great, that's great. Let's use that one. I don't really care. And I think he feels vice versa. It's like, um, and often, you know, we'll do a rewrite on a script and he'll want to cut a line and like, no, no, no, no, that's the best line of the script. And it's his line, you know? And he's, you know, so I'm fighting for his stuff and vice versa, you know? So

Phil: (08:58)

It's interesting. Yeah. Yeah. So the pride dies as you become a pro is really what I'm hearing.

Michael: (09:03)

Yeah, I think so. It's also like in the beginning of the novelty of seeing your words on TV, it was like, oh my God, my lines are on TV, millions of people. And then, uh, you know, that gets, it's not that it gets old, but you've become accustomed to it. And then you're really, it's really more about just doing the work and finishing the work as opposed to like your ego, you know?

Phil: (09:24)

Okay. So you obviously knew he was, he was engaged cause he was obviously working on the stuff, but for people who are considering teaming up, aside from the benefit of, you're more likely to get staffed, you have someone to vet your jokes or your story against to kind of tell you whether or not it's good. How can you tell whether or not someone's serious? Like someone's a good partner.

Michael: (09:42)

The thing, cause we were both, we were both signed by the agent. So we were both, um, intent on breaking into Hollywood. So, you know, so it wasn't like, it wasn't like a fluke or it wasn't like a Lark, neither one of us. Like it was a Lark and we were both around the same time. And Hollywood, we were both like on a struggling PAs and we would work on the weekends. We were both very committed. So after work and on the weekends, every day we met and we wrote spec scripts over, you know, wrote and wrote and wrote. And so, because he was a couple of years older, he was also a little bit more hungry, a little more desperate. It was like he had to make a, this happened now. And so we both had that same work ethic in terms of like, and I was young, I was a little younger, but I was also like, I want to, I want it now. I don't have any patience. So was like, we have to hit this now. And so it was a sense of franticness and, and uh, urgency. And it wasn't like there was no plan B for either of us. Hmm.

Phil: (10:35)

So how, how, how long after your partnered, did you end up, uh, selling something?

Michael: (10:40)

I think, um, I'm trying to remember it. Like it was, we wound up selling an episode of Lewis and Clark that I helped get, because that was my, I, we sold it to my, my, uh, my bosses. I was working as their, uh, assistant at the time. So I got that because, you know, they were my bosses and that might've been a couple of years after we were writing, but then it took another couple of years before we were able to get staffed on our first job, which was Just Shoot Me. And so it took a few years. And in between then we also got into the Warner Bros. Writing Program, which really did nothing for our career, but you know, it was something, so it took a few years of struggling. And I remember like at that age, the years feel like decades, especially when you feel like, you know, um, you know, I should be doing more with my life. So yeah.

Phil: (11:26)

Yeah. So, so the reason I asked that is because what you're describing is everyday after work and on weekends, you're practicing your craft. So you've talked about in other episodes is a writer writes. That's what they do. If you wrote something a year ago, you have written, but you are not actively writing. And so what I'm hearing you say is, even though you had agents, which the big misconception is you need an agent to break into Hollywood and that's that's what does it for you that didn't help? Nope. And then even then you put in years of effort to make it to your first staff job.

Michael: (11:59)

Yeah. And the first spec script that we wrote together, it was a friend's I think it was a first one. It made me minimum the first, it was one of the first. And, but we just kept on writing specs. We probably wrote maybe eight or so specs together, maybe more of show like anyway, ironically it was at first, I think it was the first spec, a spec script that we wrote together that wound up getting work for us years later, it was a really good, uh, spec, but like, we just didn't quit. It was like, well, write another one, write another one, you know, let's get better. You know, so, and I'm, I haven't looked at it in years, but I'm sure I'd look at it. Go, Ooh boy, it's not as good as I remember it. You know? Cause you get, you get better as, as you get older.

Phil: (12:35)

Right. So, so there has to be a committed, uh, commitment to craft and professionalism is ultimately a good vetting benchmark for this. Are these people willing to work as hard as I am?

Michael: (12:46)

Yeah. And it's not a get rich quick scheme. It's not like, Hey, let's, you know, let's try this on a Lark and let's try, hopefully we'll sell us. It was like, no, no, we both want to become writers, professional writers. We will not going to stop until we get there. We're going to work our asses until we do.

Phil: (12:59)

Yeah. Yeah. Got it. Okay. All right. So similar goals, hard work, work ethic, all those things. Yeah. Are there any red flags that you can think of, "Hey, this is probably not a partnership that's gonna work out."

Michael: (13:13)

Yeah. I mean, like I said that the ego part of it, I also think part of our, what made us a good team, especially in the beginning was in the, in a comedy writing room. Usually, you get classified as a joke guy or girl joke guy or a story guy. And if I were to, I was definitely a joke. I and Sivert, it was probably a story guy. And so we had complementary skill sets and now, but years later, um, I've definitely moved towards the, towards the story person as well. It's like, cause the jokes, jokes are fun and it's like, it's like a lot of sizzle and you get a lot of credit and people love the joke guy, but the story person is far more valuable and it's a skill that's way more important to have, uh, than just being funny or jokes. Those are disposable. Really.

Phil: (13:57)

That's a note that I've seen from industry professionals that I know personally is, um, if you don't understand story structure, you don't know how to lay out a story. It's not helpful.

Michael: (14:08)

Yeah. And, and I sh no one does when they start out. Nope. Everyone thinks they do. And they don't. I mean, they're very, they're very few people who are born with that innate skill and they rise up to the top very fast. The rest of us have to learn it. And it takes a long, you know, it takes a while to learn that. So

Phil: (14:23)

Got it. And to your point, like, even though I've seen this, like you taught me this stuff, you have it in your course. I've probably seen you teach story structure the way you break a story. And in any room, I still catch myself on a first draft thinking, why did I just bulldoze that, uh, that plot point right there? Like why, why did I step over that story point?

Michael: (14:41)

Yeah. And I make the same mistakes all the time too. Like I'll sometimes all I'll read my work or what, you know, you need the distance, uh, some time to, to look at your working a wait a minute, this is why what's going on here because you get lost in the weeds and you have to go always go back to the basics. I'm always reminding myself of the basics. Cause it's really, it's funny. I remember when I was on King of the Hill, having a conversation with Greg Daniels who later created the American version of The Office and he was my boss on king of the hill. And I impressed him with something that I said, which was odd and it would impress him. But I said, Greg, there is no Writing 102, it's all Writing 101. And he's like, "yes, that's it! Writing 101." It's all writing. Cause it is. And everything's all, it's all the basics. But I think people will, there are people out there who will try to sell you Writing 102, because they can make a buck, but it's all 101 right. But you have to master that part, you know?

Phil: (15:33)

Yeah. The 102 does not help you because 101 has the mastery. Yeah.

Michael: (15:37)

It's like advanced screenwriting, advanced screenings, all basics, you know? Okay. Yes. Master the basics.

Michael: (15:46)

Hi guys. Michael Jamin here. I wanted to take a break from talking and talk just a little bit more. I think a lot of you guys are getting bad advice on the internet. I know this because I'm getting tagged. One guy tagged me with this. He said, I heard from a script reader in the industry. And I was like, wait, what? Hold on, stop. My head blew up. I blacked out. And when I finally came to, I was like, listen, dude, there are no script readers in the industry by definition. These are people on the outside of the industry. They work part-time, they'd give their right arm to be in the industry. And instead they're giving you advice on what to do and you're paying for this. I mean, that just made me nuts, man. These people are unqualified to give my dog advice. And by the way, her script is, is coming along quite nicely.

Michael: (16:25)

And oh, and I'm not done. Another thing when I work with TV writers who a new one, I'm writing staffs. A lot of these guys flame out after 13 episodes. So they get this big break. They finally get in and then they flame out because they don't know what is expected of them on the job. And that's sad because you know, it's not going to happen again. So to fight all this, to flush all this bad stuff out of your head, I post daily tips on social media. You can find me on Instagram and TikTok and Facebook @MichaelJaminWriter. If you don't have time, two minutes a day to devote towards improving your craft guys, it's not going to happen. Let's just be honest. So go find, make it happen. All right. Now, back to my previous rant.

Phil: (17:07)

So prior to COVID, I was doing Brazilian Jiu Jitsu here in the valley with a guy named Romelo Barral and he's like a 10 time world champion. He's he's a legend, like UFC fighters, train at his gym. And he's just considered a master. And someone asked him the question what's better. Is it strength or cardio? And he said, cardio, because strength will fail you every time like strength will fade and your cardio can endure. And it's almost like what I'm hearing you say is understanding basics with story structure and storytelling. Those fundamentals are the cardio to everything else. It's the engine that keeps you running.

Michael: (17:40)

Yeah. And, and like, so few people really want to study that because that's not fun. You know...

Phil: (17:46)

And that's not sexy. And you know, it, it definitely feels at times it feels contrived or feels formulaic and what I don't think people understand and that I'm slowly learning is that is ingrained in us as a, as a species. It's whether you're talking Joseph Campbell or you're talking, you know, um, other psychological profiles in this stuff, like, uh, Jungian archetypes that storytelling comes from thousands and thousands of years of storytelling. And that's why Homer told his stories and the similar structure. And that's why Shakespeare did. And that's why we do.

Michael: (18:21)

Yeah. And it's just because it feels right. Something, it just feels right in your bones, but that's not to say it's cliche. Like you can always make cliche choices that you see a mile away. I mean, but you, if you follow the structure, there's plenty of creativity within those, within the points. So it doesn't feel cliche. You know, there's still a lot of choices that you can make and mistakes that you can make along the way. But if you have the structure, it really helps. It's like a house, you know, the houses you can decorate any way you want, but the house needs to have these things to stay up and not fall down.

Phil: (18:49)

Yeah. It makes sense. Yeah. Strong foundation. Right. You have to have it, the war house washes away. Yeah. So, so going back to the comment you made earlier, where you're talking about this division of labor. So we've talked about that when you first started out and we talked about in the writer's room as a Showrunner, as someone who has a show that you're managing, what's the division of labor for you and your partner when you become an Executive Producer.

Michael: (19:12)

Yeah. So that kind of started our first show that we ran together was called Glenn Martin DDS. And that was a little jem that no one saw and it was Kevin, it was animated. Oh, look at that. He's got a, you got... I gave Phil a toy .

Phil: (19:24)

I've got your DVD right here.

Michael: (19:26)

You can go find that. I think it plays on YouTube or make no money. So you can watch, you can watch on YouTube for free. And that was with Kevin Nealon. He did the voice and Catherine O'Hara was amazing. Of course he's hilarious. And Judy Greer that they what a cast we had. And, um, and so on, on once a week, I would have to, we'd have to record the actors and Sivert would stay in the writer's room, running the rewrite or breaking stories for the next episode while I was on the soundstage, directing the actress. I have a, I'm pretty good at that. I'm... I'm a decent, uh, I can hear the voices and I'm, I'm pretty good at directing and expressing myself and trying to get pulling out the best, uh, performances from actors and Sivert is great at breaking story.

Michael: (20:05)

So it worked out, it worked out really well. Um, yeah, that kind of division of labor. But if, if we were only one of us, then that one, you know, something would have suffered. Someone would have not either directed the actors, the right person, you'd have to delegate to like a number two that you trust. And the fact that Sivert, and I've been working for all these years, like we know like we have the same taste cause we, so we, I can hear his voice. He can hear my voice. We know it's, it's rare that we disagree on, on, on a story point or, um, you know, our take, you know, so it's a lot of trust and a lot of we have the same kind of brain even often. We're, um, I don't remember what we're doing. Oh, we were, we were, um, uh, meeting on another show and, uh, we had, um, we had the same, we both had this favorite episode. We were talking about it later, like, oh yeah, that's the episode I liked best. And he was like, yeah, I liked that one, the best two out of like the six that we saw and we'd liked it for the same reasons.

Phil: (21:00)

Right. Right. Do you feel like that's innate or is that your taste has grown together over time? Like being partners?

Michael: (21:09)

Uh, it's grown. We have a similar sensibility over time. Yeah.

Phil: (21:13)

Got it. Got it. So, so on the subject of working with partners, you know, you talked about people from college, you've talked about, you know, your agent in partnering with people, your agents repping. So you're not competing against each other. Are there any other ways you can think of to come up with and find a good partner if that's what you're looking for? Like sort of like a writer's dating apps.

Michael: (21:34)

Yeah. I have no idea. I imagine I would have no idea. I know people like in the course that I teach or that offer that, um, people, they reach out, they trade scripts that seems like could be, we have a private Facebook group. I dunno if anybody's teamed up from that. But that seems like a decent way to team up with someone because you're all serious about the craft. And you both have learned the language that I use in describing stories. So it's kind of like you have the same kind of, you already have the same foundation a little bit. I don't, you know?

Phil: (22:03)

Yeah. And then to your point, I think that that's a very powerful indicator to me of someone's seriousness in, you know, years ago, the first book I ever read on screenwriting was The Complete Idiot's Guide to Screenwriting by Skip Press. And he had a couple of resources in there. One of those resources is WordPlayer.com and that's run by Ted Elliott and Terry Rossio who wrote like Aladdin, Shrek, Pirates of the Caribbean, Small Soldiers, basically every film... wrote on..., they basically every film I grew up with in the nineties and in the early two thousands. And they had a bunch of these articles back from AOL in the forums, right. And one of them was talking about professionalism and they said, you cannot call yourself a professional until you're willing to invest in your craft. And that doesn't mean scouring the internet, looking for free scripts. It means going down to a script shop and buying them or going on Amazon and buying a script, it's finding that.

Michael: (22:55)

That's something you do really well, by the way. Like you always invest in yourself. Always. Yeah, yeah.

Phil: (23:01)

Yeah. Well, I took, I took that note very seriously. And so I have, I had purchased many online screenwriting courses. I went to film school. I did all those things. And that's one thing that I appreciate about your course. Is there's, there's almost like a paywall that kind of keeps the riffraff out. And it's not saying that if you don't have the funds, that you're riff-raff what I'm saying is there's a level of seriousness that comes with and making an investment in yourself. Yeah. And all of the conversations I've had, I've given notes on scripts to multiple people in that group. It's, it's super helpful. They reach out to me proactively and ask what they can do for me to read my stuff and

Michael: (23:37)

A nice, yeah,

Phil: (23:38)

Yeah, absolutely. And the cool thing is we're also coming at it from the stories, from understanding how real writers break story in the TV, TV writers' room, right. Like they're, they're analyzing say, oh, you missed this point. And I don't understand how this pays off. And, and we're, we're speaking it almost like the same insider language.

Michael: (23:57)

Yeah. So yeah, that's, that's riding with a partner and, uh, it's probably less important for drama, but for comedy, it could be, I think it's really helpful. And, uh, it, you know, it's something to consider something to, you know, explore perhaps.

Phil: (24:10)

Yeah. I love it. Thanks so much, Michael. I appreciate the info and the insights and thanks to everybody for listening.

Michael: (24:15)

Yeah. Thank you. Everyone. Talk, we'll see you on the next

Phil: (24:30)

This has been an episode of Screenwriters Need to Hear This with Michael Jamin and Phil Hudson. If you'd like to support this podcast, please consider subscribing leaving a review and sharing this podcast with someone who needs to hear today's subject. If you're looking to support yourself, I encourage you to consider investing in Michael's screenwriting course at MichaelJamin.com/course. I've known Michael for over a decade. And in the past seven years, I've begged him to put something together. During the global COVID-19 pandemic. Michael had time. And I have to say, I wish I'd had this course 10 years ago. As someone who has personally invested in most online courses, earned a bachelor's degree, and actively studied screenwriting for over a decade, this course has been more valuable to me than most of the effort I've put in because it focuses on something noone else teaches: story. In his course, Michael pulls back the curtain and shows you exactly what the pros do in a writer's room and that knowledge has made all the difference for me. And I know it will for you too. You can find more information at MichaelJamin.com/course for free daily screenwriting tips. Follow Michael on Instagram, Facebook, and TikTok @MichaelJaminWriter. You can follow me on Instagram, Facebook, and TikTok @PhilAHudson. This episode was produced by Phil Hudson and edited by Dallas Crane. Until next time, keep writing.

Michael & Phil tackle the subject of agents and managers and what new screenwriters need to do to attract representation. They also discuss pitch fests and screenplay contests.

Show Notes

Michael's Screenwriting Course - https://michaeljamin.com/course

Free Screenwriting Lesson - https://michaeljamin.com/free

@DavidHSteinberg will read your script - https://twitter.com/davidhsteinberg/status/1430195753373167623

Sarah Cooper is a comedian who grew famous for valuable content she put out on her own. - https://sarahcpr.com/

A behind the scenes look at pitch fests - https://twitter.com/ChrisAmick/status/1420501613572022275?s=20

Results of screenplay contests - https://twitter.com/EricHaywood/status/1422615678436003842?s=20

Screenwriting contest from a Pro's perspective - https://twitter.com/matthewfederman/status/1422615672215900164?s=20

Film Festival and Screenplay Contest submission software - https://filmfreeway.com/

The Nicholl’s Fellowship - https://www.oscars.org/nicholl

The Sundance Labs - https://www.sundance.org/apply

The Black List main website - https://blcklst.com/

The Black List evaluations and script hosting - https://blcklst.com/register/writer/

Writer’s Guild of America Dispute with Agencies Explained - https://www.vulture.com/article/wga-hollywood-agents-packaging-explained.html

Transcript

Michael: (00:00)

Whenever I hear a writer, saying they're typing, they're working at Starbucks. I always laugh, come on, man. It's so cliche. I don't do that. It's very rare. Most people who work in Starbucks who are tapping on their computers, please in LA, right? They want you to think that they're a writer. "Look at me. I'm a writer." But if you are real writer, in my experience, it's like, you're not working in a coffee shop. You're working on a show. 

Michael: (00:28)

Hey, welcome back everybody. Today. We're going to be talking about agents and managers. Oh, that's a good one. Phil. Don't you think? 

Phil: (00:35)

I think it's probably the most vital thing for anybody to know about how to become a screenwriter. 

Michael: (00:39)

All right. Um, what are we going to do? Well, I guess everyone wants to know how to find an agent or a manager. What would the reason why you kind of need one is so first of all, you can't submit. I people often say to me, what can I give you? My screenplay? It's just, just so I get some notes or just so you can, you know, whatever, keep me in mind for something in the future. And the answer is absolutely not because I have to me and every other working writer in the industry, we have to protect ourselves. Like, let's say you, you have a talking dog cartoon and you say, Hey, I want you to read my talking dog cartoon. And I, and I get it or whatever. I open it up. I opened up the file like, oh, because now I haven't talking dog cartoon. 

Michael: (01:17)

We all have talking dog cartoons. It's not an original idea, but because I looked at yours now, now if I get mine on the ear, you're going to sue me because we both have terrible clammy ideas. And so naturally I stole yours and that's not the case. It's just like, these are ideas out there. And the same thing with like a joke or an area. So most TV writers will protect themselves. We will not read unsolicited scripts. We just will not do it. Even if you sign a waiver or not gonna do it. Like I, you know, it's just too risky. 

Phil: (01:45)

It's really interesting. So I just saw two cases of this. There's a showrunner who just on Twitter for his birthday announced, "Hey, I will read your script." You have to, he's a lawyer, by the way, you have to understand his, his career was "lawyer". And now he is a writer. Also he has a waiver, you have to sign and you have to agree to, and he gave very specific parameters to get your script to him. And then I, I just retweeted another showrunner today. And she's like, as a reminder, I will not read any unsolicited scripts because I have to legally can't cause I have to protect myself. Yeah. Right. So I'm funny. So, so the case where you're seeing it, you have to keep in mind, like, I mean, they are attorneys or in the case of other people who do you know, the return page counts of your scripts, they have attorneys who have drafted documents to protect them. 

Michael: (02:31)

Yeah, yeah. Right. I don't, I'm not an attorney. I'm not going to do it. Um, but so that's why it has to come through an agent for some reason, when it comes through an agent, you have a layer of protection, but a little bit of the, uh, you know, and that's what the Ford you. So, and I will only read a script by the way, through an agent when it's, when there's something in it for me. And by that, it means like if I'm staffing for a TV show, I need to hire people and then I'll read the script, but I'm not going to read it as a, as a personal, you know, my pastime, you know/. 

Phil: (03:00)

Well, right. And so obviously my, my response to you was a little facetious here. I was, I don't actually think that getting an agent or a manager is the most vital thing to your career. I think that anyone who's listened to any of the podcasts episodes so far understand the Michael Jamin answer to this is be a better be a good writer. Yeah. Right. Whatever. Yeah. Not even a good writer to be a great writer, be so good. I can't ignore you. 

Michael: (03:22)

Yeah. Right. Yeah. That's, that's another episode. We will talk about the future. I want to go into that in great depth, but, but right. And so often when you get made, if you have an agent that means you've, you've surpassed, you've gotten over the first hump, which is like an agent feels like you're good enough. Um, and then, then I'll read a ton of scripts. All the scripts that I read from new writers are they've already cleared that first hurdle. They're good enough to get an agent, but that doesn't mean they're good enough to get a job. Right. And so, you know, you have to be a, you have to have a great script. And if it's like, well, I don't have a great script. Well, I'll find somebody else who does, there's somebody out there who has a great script. 

Phil: (04:00)

Right. Right. So this is an interesting thing, because I think I put an overwhelming amount of emphasis on this question when I was first learning how to be a writer because you on forums and in screenwriting books and on websites, people say, well, you got to get an agent to sell something. And I think, well, I have an idea and I want to sell it. Thus, I need an agent. And the truth is, um, you have to be so good that the agent thinks he can sell you. Right? Yeah. It goes back to our conversation on our last episode about sales it's they are selling something and they were getting a commission for that. And they are not going to waste their time or energy on something, unless they think they can sell what you have, because you are a commodity. 

Michael: (04:43)

Yeah. And if you had, I guess, say an agent, it's someone, there's a couple of things I want to explore. One is if you're up for it, you want to get a staff writing job. You're not competing against other people on the outside who've never written before. You're also competing since staff writers who have already worked, who are willing to do another, do another year as a staff writer. So now you're competing against people who've never done it and people who have done it well, or, and then maybe you're competing as story editors, which is the next level up from staff writer who are willing to take a bump down in salary because they want to work. So now you're competing against people who have one year of experience and two years of experience. So you must be great. You have to be great. And then the agent who's going to sign you. 

Michael: (05:22)

They have a handful of clients and they're have, they have to service all those clients. They're already trying to get those clients work. So if they're going to bring on somebody new that person, you want to make it as easy as possible for them to sell you because they're don't, they already, you know, they got plenty on their plate. And so one way to make it easy is to have a fantastic script, not just a good enough script. And in other way is, uh, if you have a built-in, uh, Beltman, uh, marketing market arm, like you're already very sellable. For example, there was a woman named Sarah Cooper and she blew up during the pandemic because she used to make a viral videos of, of Trump, where she put Trump's speeches. And then she would kinda, uh, lip sync to them. But she wasn't just lip sinking. 

Michael: (06:04)

She would also add little comic touches to them and she'd edit it really clever. I, she put a lot of work into one and they were really quite, they were next level. It was next level stuff. And it blew up on Twitter or one of the social media platforms. And, um, it became so big that she became known... she was an unknown before this. She was, uh, an aspiring actor, comedic actors. She couldn't get, she couldn't get arrested. And because she did all this work on her own and she blew up on her own suddenly it was like, well, it was a no brainer for every agent to sign her. She's already got a built-in platform. She already has a built-in marketing engine. And so she had made it very attractive.

Phil: (06:45)

This is, So this is an interesting thing where I think, you know, again, my perspective on this stuff kind of comes from a capitalistic perspective because my business and marketing background, but we're talking about audience here and we're talking about, you know, attention. It's really what we are, what we're offering people is something to gather their attention and they have to be willing to trade their time and energy and focus for that type of thing. So when you're writing a script, you're basically have to write something so good that someone is willing to sit through commercials or pay a monthly subscription to be entertained. Right. And that's what they're looking for. And so what this girl has done is she has brought some value to the table because she already has interest. She's provided free entertainment to people. And so those people want to see more of what she does. She has that audience. So I think it kind of speaks to what we're seeing now, which you've experienced recently with your book that you want to do. These people care a lot about, do you have an audience because you're bringing interested people with you. Yeah. 

Michael: (07:50)

Right. And she also did... Sarah Cooper along with others who did the same thing. She did all this for free. She wasn't putting up her content and saying, Hey, someone paying you for my Trump impersonations. Right. You know, this was, she put a lot of work in it for free and expected, nothing in return and got something in return for it. You know? So she was smart. And by the way, she was just as talented before she started doing these videos as she was afterwards. So it's the same person. So talent isn't quite enough. You know, 

Phil: (08:18)

That's an interesting note, right? Like, yeah. Like, and I'm trying to think of the exact saying on this, but talent. There are lots of talented people who go nowhere because they don't have the work ethic behind it. 

Michael: (08:30)

Yeah. Yeah. And they don't have right. They don't, they're not, they're not then actually not seeing the problem from the end of the, the, the perspective of the buyer. What is the buyer one? And let's say the agent is your buyer. The agent is the person who want you, you know, you want them to buy you. Well, what's in it for them. They don't want to work that hard. They want to find a new client who is, requires the least amount of work on their part because they have, you know, they got plenty to do. And if they find with a, with a built-in marketing engine and is super talented and you don't have to convince someone to buy, you don't have to beg and plead and cold calling favors. You know, they don't have to hustle. No one wants to know Adrian wants to hustle for you. They want someone who's like a slam dunk. They want that person to hustle for them. 

Phil: (09:10)

Yeah. Yeah. That's an interesting take. So, well, let's just assume then that I have the talent and I've got the goods. Like I've got the energy and maybe I haven't, for whatever reason hit it. I haven't gone viral. I don't have the following yet. And I want to get an agent. So I'm just going to run a couple of situations by, and you tell me if you think these are good places to get an agent and you may not, you may not be able to answer these, but I think you were so, yeah. So, uh, number one, pitch fests. 

Michael: (09:38)

Yeah. So I didn't, that wasn't even a thing when I was coming up. And then when I found out the pitch fast, I was like, what is that about? That doesn't make any sense to me. I I'm gonna have to say no. I actually, I ran on Twitter, someone Tweeted out, well, I let my agent or whatever. I sold the project to a Pitch Fest. But for, I, for every one person who says that like 10 others say what a waste of time. They don't even send people. It's just like our, I think it's just a racket, honestly. You know? Cause why would, if you were a producer and you wanted to get in touch with, um, a talented writer for a project you're working on, like, why in the hell would you go to a pitch that you go to an agency you've called talent agencies say, Hey, I got an idea for a project. Uh, I need writers. And they, within 10 minutes, there'd be a dozen writers outside the door saying, yes, let's do this. Like, you wouldn't go to some unknown. You wouldn't say, give me someone who's never done it before at a pitch fast. And maybe you'll say, okay, well maybe they don't have much money. Well, if they don't have much money, how are they going to raise money for this movie? Or this TV show? Like, what's that about? You know, it seems, it just seems shady, shady, AAF. 

Phil: (10:44)

Didn't I send you a tweet by someone who basically was like, yeah, my first day or my first week on the job, I was sent to represent the company in a pitch Fest. And I wore a suit and tie to try to make myself look older. Cause I was like 21 and fresh out of college. 

Michael: (10:58)

Yeah. And so all these people were paying money to pitch this guy. It was his first week on the job. And he was like right out of college. How do you think that's going to go? 

Phil: (11:07)

Okay. All right. So that's a really so similar screenplay contests.

Michael: (11:12)

There. And I didn't even know that was a thing until you told me about it. And I was like, oh, that's a thing. Um, 

Phil: (11:17)

Well, we see a lot of members of your course submitting to screenplay contests and pitch fests and interesting. It's interesting. 

Michael: (11:24)

And some like, from what you've told me, there are two big ones, right? There's the Nichols, which I was like, but now I am aware of.

Phil: (11:29)

That's through the academy. The academy does that. And they pick like 10 or 12 different screenplays specifically features that they think have what it takes and they give them a grant to just be writers to finish that script. Right. So it's a big deal.

Michael: (11:42)

And then, and then it's on it's 

Phil: (11:45)

Right. So Sundance has a script and that's a little bit different because you're submitting information to join the, the, to become a fellow, a Sundance fellow. So you're joining either the director's lab, the writer's lab, the editorial lab, the documentary labs. And that's changed recently. And I've had, you know, fortuitously I've been able to attend to those. I've been a Spanish English translator for three years at the, at the screenwriting labs and one year at the director's labs. So yeah, definitely worth it. And that's an interesting thing too, for anyone sitting there, you know, they told me they're not just looking for a good script. They're looking for someone with a body of work. They're looking for a creative, with a specific vision or a specific story to tell and famous people like Tika Waititi who's blowing up right now. Uh, Ryan Coogler, they're all Sundance Fellow. So it's a legitimate, um, no, that's not even a competition now. It's, you're applying to be a fellow. Right. 

Michael: (12:43)

The other 

Phil: (12:43)

Ones that there are a couple of like, there's big, Big Break and like Final Draft and stuff like that. They, they have their own competitions. And I think there's some value in those because they do have actual industry professionals showing up to judge those and be involved. Does that make sense? Okay. Okay. But, but I definitely, you know, from my background in the independent world, I have seen the other side of this, where you go on different, um, screenwriting contest or film festivals, and you submit to win awards at these competitions. And it's basically like one or two guys, maybe a group of five to 10 people. And they're doing it as a way of bringing culture to their town or their small town. And a lot of time, what I've seen is that it's a money grab. It's a way to. You're making money and I'm making a living because every single person who submits on Film Freeway, and there's a couple others they're paying like 40 bucks a submission for these. 

Michael: (13:40)

Maybe we shouldn't mention any names.

Phil: (13:41)

Yeah. Well, film the Film Freeway is the software where you say, okay, it's not an actual film festival. Okay, good. Right. So I, I, you know, I've been to some great film festivals and I think it's a lot of the networking that I have has come from attending film festivals because there are a hungry filmmakers who attend those things.

Michael: (13:59)

But, but not as like a contest, not yet.

Phil: (14:03)

Exactly. But they do have a screenwriting contest portion where you can submit your screenplay and you just pay a nominal 20 to 40 bucks for us to review your screenplay and enter the competition. Right. 

Michael: (14:15)

But it's not like, you know, I think the best case scenario you can hope for any of these is like maybe an agent will find you. Right. I mean, it's not like you're going to the network is, would say let's put it on the air. 

Phil: (14:26)

Hopefully someone there. And what I've seen is typically the experts who are sitting on the panels and attending and watching films or judging those things, they tend to be some of the better contacts you get out of those events. Okay. But from your perspective, like, it doesn't really seem like you find much value in a screenplay contest. 

Michael: (14:43)

I didn't even know they were a thing and I've been doing this for 26 years. So, but maybe that's just my ignorance. Um, you know, so it's not like the winner's live land on my lap when I'm hiring, they don't land on my lap. Maybe they land, maybe if the big contest lands on an agent's lap and the agent will submit... submit it to me, that might, that might work, you know, but it's not, it's not a direct pipeline to success and I'm the guy doing the hiring. 

Phil: (15:05)

Right. Right. So that's interesting. Okay. Lastly, um, and I, you know, we've never really had a conversation about this, but um, how familiar are you with The Blacklist? 

Michael: (15:16)

Um, I remember helping my partner. I sold a screenplay a couple screenplays years ago. It was, we were hoping, cause it never got, we didn't get me, but most screenplays for theatricals don't they do not get made. And so we were praying that it would get on The Black List just because it would be an honor. And it would be that kind of, it helps to market yourself, Hey, look, I'm on the black list and it's hard to get off of The Black List to get produced, but occasionally it does happen. Um, but I, you know, it didn't happen. We didn't, we didn't make The Black List for, I don't know. Yeah. I don't, I think it's like a bunch of industry. People have to read it and they have to unanimously think that, Hey, this is really good. I don't think it made it. It was ours was even that widely circulated. So I don't think it was even an option. 

Phil: (15:56)

There's two sides to it. So yeah, you can be put on The Black List and this is, again, this could be wrong. So if you have more information for watching this on YouTube comment below or let us know, and we'll address this in a future podcast, but my understanding is it is, um, industry professionals basically submit you and vote and say, these are the best screenplays that were unproduced this year and films like Arrival who come off The Black List and been made. Right. Um, yeah, but then there's the other side of it where you can submit your screenplay and get feedback from industry insiders. 

Michael: (16:28)

Right. And now, you know, I'm not even, I'm not on the feature end, I'm in the TV. So I don't The Black List. They don't really take pilots. Do they... It's more Theatrical? 

Phil: (16:37)

Uh, I don't know. I think they take pilots. I think you can submit to television as well, but it definitely definitely theatrical focused. So yeah. That's another thing. We'll look at it too, but if anyone knows just comment and let us know. 

Michael: (16:48)

Yes. It's an honor to get on it and I know it's hard to get off of it, you know, to get produced, but uh, yeah. I don't know much about it. Okay. How much in the honor game, I just want to get money. Right. 

Phil: (16:58)

Okay. All right. So, so what do you think it is then? How aside from the Michael Jamin answer of be a great writer... how do you get an agent? 

Michael: (17:07)

Well, it's really, it's really what, what do you bring to the table? And it's not your willingness to work as a, as a writer, as a screenwriter. That's not anything, you know, like I said, if you bring to the table, your connections, if you are already on a show as, as, as a PA or the staff or a writer's assistant, and you're this close to popping and breaking in, and the showrunners was like, you, they want to hire you that you're bringing a lot to the table. You're already getting that first job basically. Or if you have a, like Sarah Cooper, if you already have a built-in marketing platform with a billion followers on Facebook, whatever the hell is on, you know, you, that you have that audience. So it's much easier. And it's, it's, it's sad, but that's just how it goes these days. It's not so much about talent. It's also about what do you bring to the table? 

Michael: (17:53)

Hi guys, it's Michael Jamin. I wanted to take a break from talking and talk just a little bit more. I think a lot of you, people are getting bad advice on the internet. Many of you want to break into the industry as writers or directors or actors, and some of you are paying for this advice on the internet. It's just bad. And as a working TV writer and showrunner, this burns my butt. So my goal is to flush a lot of this bad stuff out of your head and replace it with stuff that's actually going to help you. So I post daily tips on social media, go follow me @MichaelJaminWriter. You can find me on Instagram and Facebook and TikTok. And let's be honest, if you don't have time, like just two minutes a day towards improving your craft, it's not going to happen. So go make it happen for me at @MichaelJaminWriter. Okay. Now back to my previous rant. 

Phil: (18:39)

I guess here's the next question. What's the difference between an agent and a manager? 

Michael: (18:43)

Let me know. And I have both, um...

Phil: (18:46)

I, I have an external perspective of what I've learned from trying to get these over years, but...

Michael: (18:52)

What are they telling you? 

Phil: (18:53)

Yeah, so, so the agent's job is legally to sell the script. Like they, they're the only one qualified to sell a script. They cannot, managers cannot make deals, but managers bring people on and basically work through and support the project, give notes, provide feedback, and build relationships for that writer. 

Michael: (19:13)

Yeah, they do that in the beginning. You know, I was kind of being a little glib, but our agent, you know, our agent was the one who got us, our first job. And so yes, agents submit and they get you that job. And then as we rose up through the ranks eventually become high. So high that it's actually kind of hard to get a job on a staff. The next step is basically have your own show. And so you're either going to be a showrunner or maybe the second in command. And so to be a showrunner, or to get your, to sell your show, you often need to sell your project with talent. And so a manager can usually hook you up with talent. There are other clients, and that's how it's worked in the past. We've done, um, we've sold shows with, uh, like comedians, like mostly big name comedians that they pair us up with their other clients. And so that's what a manager can do is cause more of a long-term thing, but they don't. Yeah, you're right. They can't make deals. They can't really submit you stuff like that. And, and they also, a manager can own, not that this is a plus, but they could own a percentage of your project. They can, they can help you produce it. Whereas a manager or agents can't do that. Right. 

Phil: (20:16)

But, but, and so this is an interesting thing. So, um, do you know what the current, what the rate is for a manager versus an agent? 

Michael: (20:24)

Uh, well, our agent takes 10% and so does our manager. 

Phil: (20:27)

Yeah. And I have heard of instances where managers isn't taken up to 15%. 

Michael: (20:31)

Yeah. Yeah. And then there's nothing left for the writer. 

Phil: (20:35)

And then you have your attorney fees. Right. Which is like 5 cents.

Michael: (20:37)

That's 5%. Yeah.

Phil: (20:38)

So right out of the gate, you're between 25 to 30% of your income. Yeah. Plus taxes after that. Right. Yeah. But, but this is an interesting point. I've again, I come from a sales and capitalistic background of I have goods and I'm trying to sell goods. And so are there a lot of people who don't have that background who say, well, why would I want to give away 10% of my project and my responses will, 10% of zero is still zero that's. Right. Right. So if your manager can make the introduction and provide the asset to get the job done, right. Making connection with that actor who will go in and you can pitch that project with them and the agent does the job of closing that deal and getting you the best deal they can then that's money well paid because you're now getting 70% of whatever you sold instead of 100% of nothing.

Michael: (21:28)

Yeah. And there was only recently, like about a year ago, it'd be writers, Guild, uh, severed ties with all, all agents. So you had to drop your agent because, uh, the deal was, you know, there was, there was some shenanigans going on. So, uh, the writers had to kind of sever tires. And so we had to rely on our manager for work during then. And then of course it's been, it's been settled, but yeah, now we have an agent and a manager and a lawyer.

Phil: (21:54)

Awesome. Okay. All right. So what do, what, so we've talked about like we understand what to expect from them. Um, what else do you think, what else do you think is important to know about an agent and a manager? 

Michael: (22:04)

Well, an agent, this is kind of important, but agents, you know, I think that most people think, well, my agent would go and get me a job. They'll they'll hustle like the agent. That's not really the accurate, the agent's job is more like to field offers. So when the phone rings, "Hey, we need a writer," or, "Hey, we want to hire Michael Jamin and Sivert Glarum, his partner." And they, then the agent was stepping. They feel the offers. They're not going to hustle and fight too much because they have other clients, they have to maintain relationships. And if a deal goes south, like if, like, let's say, uh, you know, I, we have a pilot and it goes south, how hard is my agent gonna fight for me? I don't know. I, I suspect not too hard because he wants to make, he still wants to keep his relationship with the network or the studio, a good one because he has other clients to serve. 

Michael: (22:50)

So if you become too much of a squeaky wheel, if you become with your, when you have your agent and you start crying all the time, like in the movies, you'll see, oh, this happens all the time. Like, uh, you'll see a STR, a writer calling his agent what's going on. And I, and the agency I agents handholding. And then don't worry about me. I'm promising, I'm working hard for you like that. Does that call doesn't exist? I don't bother my agent with that kind of nonsense because you know, he's not a babysitter. And if I make myself too much of a nuisance, uh, he's not going to work for me. He's going to find somebody else to work for. 

Phil: (23:22)

Right. Makes sense. Makes sense. Okay. Yeah. 

Michael: (23:27)

All right. I wish I was a big, if I was a real big shot, then I could do that. But, um, you know, 

Phil: (23:32)

Okay, well, which, so which one do you think is easier? Like if I, if I'm a new writer, which one do you think is the easiest to get and where should I put my time and energy? 

Michael: (23:39)

I think it's probably easier to get a manager. I think there are, uh, yeah, I think in the beginning, and by the way, there, there are four big, as you mentioned, there are four big talent agencies in Hollywood. There's ICM, CAA, William Morris Endeavor, and UTA, United talent agency, and then are much smaller there are next tier, you know, Paradigm and APA there... and then there's some small boutique agencies coming out of the gate. You are not going to, no new writer is going to land it at UTA. 

Michael: (24:07)

Yeah. Unless you're in a situation right. Where you're an overnight success like this girl right who. Right. It's like, is that it's like CAA is like, okay, you, we have a rare opportunity here to capitalize on an audience, so we should take her on.

Michael: (24:21)

And, and so you, you most likely to start at a small agency and that's so fine, your agent will give you attention. That's good. But there's an advantage to being a big one, which is, for example, when more staffing on a show, the first call I make is to my agent. And I say, Hey, um, I need, we need writers. Submit me your writers. I need young baby writers. And so that's how it works. They like the first call is my agency to send me his, his writers. And those are the first ones I'll read. And if there's a good one, I'll hire that one. Why? Because I'm trying to make good with my agent. I'm trying to keep him happy. So, you know, but if there's no one that's right for the show, then I go to the next agency, you know? Um, that's how that works.

Phil: (25:04)

Got it. Got it. But a manager would be the easiest way to approach this. 

Michael: (25:08)

The manager will help... a good manager will help you land an agent too. 

Phil: (25:12)

Because they may have connections, right? Yeah. Right. They are a matchmaker. All right. That makes a lot of sense. So, but this all being said, you know, I shouldn't even bother writing until I have one or the other. Right. Because ultimately I need these things to sell myself. 

Michael: (25:26)

Yeah. No, you got to start. You have to always write. You have to always, right. I, um, you know, uh, the, there are, I can't remember what the numbers are. I ran the numbers, but there are slightly more active players in the NFL, including the practice squad. Yeah. There's slightly more working TV writers than there are at players in the NFL. Just a little bit more. I think it's like 2200 versus 2,800. It's not a lot of people. So if you were going to be in the NFL, do you know if your goal is to be in the NFL? Do you work out once a week or do you work out every single day? You know, 

Phil: (26:02)

Uh, I was, uh, I was just listening to a Joe Rogan podcast this morning. And he's talking about this UFC fighter, Conor McGregor, which I don't know if you know who he is. He's kind of Conor McGregor recently was in a fight with a guy named Dustin Porier and it was round three was their third fight. And Connor broke his shin in the middle of the fight. Yeah. Shattered it. And people were like, oh, he's old. And, and he should give up. And ultimately Joe Rogan made this point. He's like, that dude is a Savage because it was a known injury. It had it scanned. He already had a broken leg when he went in and he still went in, he still fought. And he was still kicking with that, leg, right. And he went in balls to the walls at the beginning, swinging as hard as he could try and to knock Dustin Poirer you out because that's who he is. 

Phil: (26:45)

And you have to keep in mind, this man has half a million, half a billion dollars in the bank. Oh wow. Because of other fights he's won sort of fight with that intensity to be that dedicated to your career, proves the level of integrity of energy and effort you need to be in. And they made this point. They said, you know, if I'm a professional athlete, you can be a good boxer and learn, takedown defense. You can stop someone with jujitsu or wrestling and you can get pretty far, but to be an elite level champion, you have to know jujitsu and you have to be really good at it. You have to know boxing, you have to know wrestling. You have to go to the cardio gym and you have to be working on all these facets of your craft to be a world champion. And, and it's, it's something most people are not willing to, to do. 

Michael: (27:31)

No, they just say, I have a script. Can't you get me work. Yeah. You know? 

Phil: (27:35)

Yeah. What can you do for me is I think the attitude I see a lot. 

Michael: (27:39)

Yeah. Yeah. Um, it's the other way around. It's what, you know. Yeah. 

Phil: (27:45)

The point, like, if you're playing, like if you consider that NFL analogy, it's it's you are playing at the elite level. Like how many high school athletes don't make it to division one football. Yeah. How many division one football players don't make it to the NFL combine, let alone get drafted, let alone play. 

Michael: (28:06)

And you're coming after my job. You think I'm going to let you have my job. Yeah. Right. Yeah. So, and I've been doing this for, for 26 years. I'm the NFL player who you, you haven't heard of, but man, that guy's still kicking around? Yeah. He's still on the team. Wow. Good for him. Yeah. That's why. Yeah. 

Phil: (28:22)

Yeah, because you put in the work, right. It's you know, and not, they're not people who work at coffee shops. Right. Or right at coffee shops, but something you told me when I first moved to LA is, you know, real writers are too busy to spend time at coffee shops. 

Michael: (28:34)

It's every time I, whenever I hear a writer friend saying they're typing, they're working at Starbucks. I always laugh. Like, come on, man. Right. It's so cliche. Don't do that. It's very rare. Most of the people who are working in Starbucks who are tapping on their computers, at least in LA, right? Yeah. They want you to think that they're a right. Look at me, I'm a writer. But if you are a real writer in my experience, it's like, you're not working in a coffee shop. You're working. 

Phil: (28:54)

And I'm sure that that's what we call "seamers" where I come from. They seem like they're doing the job, right? Yeah. 

Michael: (29:01)

Yeah. They want you to think that they're doing work. Like I caught me, I got a terrible, my opinion is a terrible place to work. It's not comfortable. The seats are hard. 

Phil: (29:10)

There's no whiteboard. 

Michael: (29:12)

Yeah. In a whiteboard. Like why would you work at a coffee shop of all places? 

Phil: (29:15)

Yeah. All right. So ultimately it comes back to the same thing we've been saying the whole time is ultimately you have to be good at your craft and not just good. You have to be great. I think that was one of the most helpful notes that you gave me. Uh, we talked about the spec script that I wrote or was, uh, a spec Mr. Robot for my TV writing class and... And you read it and he gave me a great note. You said is obvious. You're a competent writer and this is really good. The bad news is it's not great. Yeah. And that has stuck with me for two years. It's like, it has to be great to stand out. 

Michael: (29:48)

Where you're constantly working on it. So, you know, you have an advantage over people. You already have a huge advantage over everybody else. And that you are now an industry insider because you are working on the TV show. And because of that, you are around scripts and you're reading scripts and you're, you're around other writers and you're learning, you know, that's a huge advantage that you will, but that was because you made a sacrifice. You moved here. 

Phil: (30:09)

Yeah. Well, and it's, it is expensive and it is hard. And I could be living a very, completely, a completely different lifestyle if I lived anywhere else but California or in LA. Um, I think I read recently that the, the ave... The average income in America, is like is $36,000, but LA county considers the average cost of living your $53k.

Michael: (30:29)

A year. And that sounds low. 

Phil: (30:31)

Yeah. Like, like it's, it's a crazy expensive town, but you know, I will say that one of the benefits of busting my butt as a writer's PA and doing my best to provide as much value as I could in that position is they brought me back on to be a, an office PA, which was a position I'd already had. And then I also got brought in to be the post PA. And I've been working on the same show for two full seasons now nonstop because they like you. Yeah. But the cool thing is I get to see how you guys break the story. I get to read every draft. You can see how it changes. I get to go into production. I get to see how they shoot the show. I get to see what changes happen, the day of shooting. And then I get to go and post and I get to watch the showrunners, make that final cut of their show and make those decisions. And I've learned far more being a PA than I think I've ever learned in film school. 

Michael: (31:25)

Right. Are you sitting in on the mix 

Phil: (31:27)

Too? I probably could if I asked that this point, um, but I make it very clear that I don't, I'm not trying to get anything from anyone. So, I I've been invited and I probably could at any point, but you know, I'm here to run tapes around LA, right. That's my job. And I'll do it and I'll do it as fast as I can. 

Michael: (31:46)

All right. So good attitude. It's got a good attitude. 

Phil: (31:50)

Cool. 

Michael: (31:52)

All right. That's a good, that's a good episode of the podcast. 

Phil: (31:55)

I think. Very helpful. Yeah, absolutely. 

Michael: (31:57)

All right, everyone, thank you for listening. And we got more coming up, so, uh, you know, I don't know. What do you gotta do? So you gotta subscribe to podcasts. Is that what you do? 

Phil: (32:04)

Yeah. Make sure you subscribe, make sure you leave a review at this point. Give us that five stars. It helps with our rankings. Uh, make sure you share it on your social media. If there's something you find valuable. And then I would also encourage everyone to follow you on social media. 

Michael: (32:17)

Yes, please do. Uh, yeah. I'm at, especially Instagram @MichaelJaminWriter. I post daily tips on Instagram. So Coco. 

Phil: (32:24)

Yeah, absolutely. The right thing to go fall in there. I think that, um, the members of your course specifically who said that the content you're putting out on social media or their gems of information, and they've already been through your course, 

Michael: (32:38)

It's funny that they say people, I, people will say that it could, this is gold. And I'm like, I, I might, when I post on my social media posts, well, this is gold. I'm like, no, 

Michael: (32:46)

Dude, the gold is in the course. I wouldn't give you the gold. This is really, this is just really good. They're really, really good stuff. Isn't it? Is in the course.

Phil: (32:53)

Yeah. So it's good stuff. So check out the course again. And um, you know, I think one of the students in your course, you said, you know, if you can save up the money, it will be the most transformative course you'll ever take and he's taken multiple courses just like I have. And you know, I could talk all day about how much I love the course, and I'm glad it's there and you know, grateful that it's improved my writing. So thank you. Thank you. Okay. And we'll see everyone next week. 

Michael: (33:18)

Very good. Bye-bye now 

Phil: (33:32)

This has been an episode of Screenwriters Need to Hear This with Michael Jamin and Phil Hudson. If you'd like to support this podcast, please consider subscribing leaving a review and sharing this podcast with someone who needs to hear today's subject. If you're looking to support yourself, I encourage you to consider investing in Michael's screenwriting course at MichaelJamin.com/course. I've known Michael for over a decade. And in the past seven years, I've begged him to put something together. During the global COVID-19 pandemic. Michael had time. And I have to say, I wish I'd had this course 10 years ago. As someone who has personally invested in most online courses, earned a bachelor's degree, and actively studied screenwriting for over a decade, this course has been more valuable to me than most of the effort I've put in because it focuses on something noone else teaches: story. In his course, Michael pulls back the curtain and shows you exactly what the pros do in a writer's room and that knowledge has made all the difference for me. And I know it will for you too. You can find more information at MichaelJamin.com/course for free daily screenwriting tips. Follow Michael on Instagram, Facebook, and TikTok @MichaelJaminWriter. You can follow me on Instagram, Facebook, and TikTok @PhilAHudson. This episode was produced by Phil Hudson and edited by Dallas Crane. Until next time, keep writing.

In this episode, Michael and Phil tackle the subject of staffing a TV show. Get answers to common questions and see what a working Showrunner is looking for when hiring new staff writers.

Michael's Screenwriting Course - https://michaeljamin.com/course

Free Screenwriting Lesson - https://michaeljamin.com/free

Michael: (00:00)

You're listening to screenwriters. Need to hear this with Michael Jamin.

Michael: (00:08)

All right, everyone. Welcome back today. We're talking about how shows are staffed and how you can get on a staff and all that stuff.

Phil: (00:15)

That's what I want to know. Let's do this.

Michael: (00:16)

That's what you want to pay attention to I'll take notes. All right. Well basically, you know, when a show gets greenlit to go into production, the showrunner is hired first. If that's not the person who, who sold the show, it could be sometimes it's like a younger person might sell the show with less experience than they team up that person with an experienced showrunner, whatever let's say you are. Or

Phil: (00:36)

I have a question about that. So let's say that I sell a pilot and they are like, Hey, you need a show runner here. A bunch of people. And I'm like, I got a guy, his name was Michael Jamin, his writing partner, Sivert. I want them to run my show. They vet you guys. They like you. They're okay with it. Am I get a creator title right? Created by probably shared with you is my guess.

Michael: (00:58)

It depends. eh, I, you know, it could be also developed someone like a developed by, or if this case, if you truly created the show by yourself, and then I'm brought on later after mixing on air and I don't get any creative, I just I'm Executive Producer. I don't get a creative background.

Phil: (01:12)

Okay. And then you are the showrunner. What would my title be? Would I be an M assuming I'd be an EAP because I created the show.

Michael: (01:22)

Not necessarily. Yeah, not they, you have to negotiate for all that. Um, you could be maybe a producer. They would, might give you if you've had no experience, they might give you a producer title, but they, they might not make you an executive producer and that's not up to that's up to what you knew associate with the studio, you know?

Phil: (01:39)

Interesting. And I think from our last conversation, those aren't technically writer's Guild, guaranteed titles, right? Those are new sorta titles. Yeah.

Michael: (01:48)

Yeah. And it's what you can, it's what you can negotiate. I mean, I, yeah, I'm not sure if yeah. I was going to try my, remember we ran a show for the firm, the guy. Yeah. I know for a fact, the guy who created was not executive producer, so yeah. It's you have to negotiate it. So whatever, you can get your first show, you don't have a lot of you don't have a lot of, uh, cards, you know?

Phil: (02:08)

Yeah. Okay. So who in that room? I it's my show. I sold it. You're the show runner who has ultimate creative say

Michael: (02:18)

I the showrunner, but, um, the short Warner's going to try to keep, if the sermons are a decent person, we'll try to keep that the other guy or woman to create happy. You don't really want them, but you have to defer, like, that's why they bring on the show runner. Because like, you're the one with the experience. You don't want hunter who has, it knows how to talk to the network and deal with the actors. And ultimately you, you know, you have that.

Phil: (02:39)

Yeah. And ultimately you work for the S for the network. Right. But they could technically fire you if you put up too much of a fight. Right. Because it's,

Michael: (02:49)

Anyone could get fired. Everyone is on the chopping block. So, you know, you don't, you want to be respectful and you don't want to, you know, destroy their vision. But ultimately, you know, that's the why that's why you're being brought on. So I've never had a situation where it became like a struggle of egos. And like now we're doing it my way, usually that the inexperienced writer will, will kind of naturally defer to the showrunner just because, you know, you have the experience. Yeah.

Phil: (03:17)

Got it. Okay. That's a bit of a digression, but go ahead. Continue. We're talking about to how we get staffed on a show.

Michael: (03:24)

So usually the show runner will have the first person that they're showing or we'll hire is the, is the second in command. Usually the higher it goes in that order, they usually hire up ha they hire from the top down. So they hire like a co-executive producer or someone was a supervisor and producer. And then finally, if there's any money left over, maybe you'll, you'll throw in, um, a staff writer. That's traditionally how some, but not necessarily how it's done anymore. They've kind of make their kind of changing things now.

Phil: (03:50)

Okay. So let me, let me ask another question here. When you're making those hiring decisions, how much are you actually looking at budgets to say, like, I know this coach VP has this rate and that's gonna affect my writer's room budget this much.

Michael: (04:04)

I honestly, I'm not even privy to that stuff. They try, you know, they don't even tell you. They often they'll say, we'll see what we can do. Or often this, the studio will say, well, it's important for us to have a lot of voices in this room. Uh, we don't really care about experience. And so they'll say, this is what you're going to get. I've been on shows where like they say, Nope, you know, I, where I've tried to hire people with experience and I've gotten vetoed by the higher ups who say, no, we want you to have more writers and fewer, like, I'm always, like, in my opinion, I'd rather have someone a really skilled co-executive producer who knows story and who really can turn into a great draft. That's the most important thing to me when I'm running a show, but the studios often have other decisions. They like, no, we want to make sure we have X amount of writers on this show. It doesn't matter if they're never written a word before in their life, but that

Phil: (04:53)

That's where they want. Got it. So in that situation, have they said, well, unfortunately you're not able to make that offer because it eats up too much budget or is that anything that comes up like, yeah,

Michael: (05:03)

No, we don't want to hire this person. That person doesn't check out with us, find somebody else. And it's like, oh great. You know, got it. And it's not that we want to hire our friends. We want to hire people that we've worked with, that we know can do the job. Right.

Phil: (05:15)

So, because ultimately the writer's job is to make your showrunner job easier because you have so many hats you're wearing.

Michael: (05:22)

Yeah. All I really care about is can this person write a good draft or do I have to do a page one rewrite? So, you know, that's like, I don't, that's all I really care about is that will the draft come in? Good.

Phil: (05:35)

Got it. Okay. So you're saying that now things have changed though, and some shows are kind of doing things differently in regards to staff writers. Yeah.

Michael: (05:43)

I, I, you know, in some degree, like I'm talking about the, the industry is changing so fast that, uh, you know, the orders for shows are becoming because of streaming and cable. And you know, in the old days when I was coming up, there was four networks and you get 22 episodes a year, but now it's streaming and you meet, you do 10 a year or 80 year, and the budgets are getting smaller and smaller. And so they won't hire the writers for the entire production to show. Maybe they'll just hire writers for the pre-production of the show. And so, you know, it's the rules, it's a very fluid situation. So

Phil: (06:15)

Got it, got it. Okay. So what a, and we've talked kind of extensively at this point about there's one skillset. You need to have to make it as a staff writer. And that is to be able to write a good episode of tell

Michael: (06:28)

And that's hard to do so failing that. Can you contribute in some meaningful way and without like gumming up the works and you would think that's an easy thing that you would think that'd be a low threshold. But apparently that seems to be a hard, hard bar to cross for a lot of people, because a lot of new writers simply gum up the works because they want it. They want to talk as much, or they feel like they should be contributing as much as the higher up writers. But the higher up writers are getting paid easily five times as much as a lower writer. And so the low writers thinks, well, if that writer just spoke, you know, for 10 minutes, I better say something for 10 minutes. And I was like, but no, that person's getting paid way more than you, that they have to talk.

Michael: (07:09)

They were quiet. You know, they are supposed to carry more of a load, but some new writers just don't quite understand that. And so by matching, they feel like, well, I have to do my here's my 10 minutes. I better keep talking. Uh, it's like, Ugh, you know, that doesn't help actually. But there are other ways you can meaningful contribute a great way to contribute for a new staff writer. Most people don't realize this is sometimes they, they want to fight for their own ideas. They take up time arguing for their ideas. And it's not like we don't want to do their ideas. We just want to do whatever the best idea we can get our hands on. And if there's this one of the best ideas I want, we'll take someone else's best idea. So a great way that a staff writer can contribute instead of fighting for your own ideas is when someone has an idea that gets a little traction, see if you can build on their idea. So it's not your idea you're building on theirs. Yeah.

Phil: (07:54)

And now you've given me a note in the past that you got a great piece of advice when you were a young writer about finding a different way around. Do you want to talk about that? Yeah.

Michael: (08:02)

Yeah. And now I, that was, I learned that as a staff writer on just shoot me and I got that piece of advice from a writer named marsh McCall. And he was, uh, at the time he was, he had just come off with Conan where he was the head writer on the Conan O'Brien show. And I remember struggling the first few weeks trying to like, we would be pitching a joke and, or a story area, and everyone was so fast and so quick with it. And I was like, I w first they'd say something funny and then I'd spend the next 10 minutes laughing as if I was in, you know, in the audience of the show and just in complete off them. But I had to contribute in some way. And so we pitch on a line and like, how do I beat them for this joke?

Michael: (08:41)

I just couldn't do it. And one day I marched took me aside and I kind of confided to him what I was struggling with. And he goes, oh, well, here's what you do. Instead of everyone, if everyone's racing towards this one joke, trying to climb over the hill to get to this one joke, you're never going to beat these people. Cause they're pros, they're faster, they're better, they're stronger. They're funnier. You have to find a way around. You have to go under the health. You have to go around the hill, you have to dig a hole, you can get to the sand, but you have to get a different way there. And I, and to me that freed everything up, that little analogy helped me so much. I was like, oh, okay. I don't have to follow them. I can, I can cheat. I can find another way around to get to the end, the end. Funny. I, you know, I can think of a different way to get to a punchline that isn't necessarily the same pit, the way everyone else is pitching. I can think of a different way to approach the joke and that freed everything up. And after that, I kind of became all, I kind of came alive in the room and then I had my confidence soared and I was like, oh, I can do this job. That's a, before that I thought I was gonna be fired. Yeah,

Phil: (09:36)

No kidding. So, so do you have any example of what that would look like? It's so hard. I know it's putting you on the spot.

Michael: (09:43)

It is it's but it's like, I, you know, I remember like if you're pitching a joke about, uh, Nina being a non-event horn, who was a kind of like, she, she used to drink a lot and maybe everyone's pitching a joke about her being a drunk. And, and we're trying to think of a funny way to talk about that. If you came out of it a different way, instead of trying to get to the drunk part, get to the part where she's promiscuous or something, you know, just do something else that no one else is thinking about. Cause it's not like we have to come up with a line about her drinking too much. It could be, you know, it, it could be another way to approach the problem. Um, uh, yeah. And so I wish I could think of a better example, but it's always been about, um, just not following everybody, come up with your own way to get around the problem.

Phil: (10:26)

That's a, I think it's powerful, powerful advice for anybody who is struggling with that. So what would you consider to be the no-nos of a staff writer?

Michael: (10:36)

Well, there's a, there's a phrase that's often heard in, in TV writing rooms. It's it's pitch don't. And so that means it's so much easier for a staff writer. And again, I include myself in this because I was just as guilty. It's so hard to come up with something usable and good, but it's very easy to take a dump on someone else's idea and to explain why your idea is no good. Why it won't work. That's extremely easy, but it's not productive. And so that's. So you never really want to point out a problem unless you have a solution. You know, and I that's, that's been my mantra to the, to this day. It's like, I don't point it up. I just come up with solutions, you know?

Phil: (11:17)

Yeah. I've heard other people refer to this as being the doctor know that. Yeah, no,

Michael: (11:23)

You know, it's funny you say that sometimes people will say to play devil's advocate and my partner always says, he always interrupts. He goes, well, whoa, are we playing devil's advocate now? I didn't realize, let me get out of the board game. We're not playing devil's advocate. You know, we're making a TV show.

Phil: (11:38)

Yeah. Right.

Michael: (11:39)

So no doubt that the devil, by the way, devil does need an advocate. Devil does pretty well on his own. So he doesn't need any help from you.

Phil: (11:47)

Right. Right. Okay. So, so I can, I know that there are some observations I've made in writer's rooms with what young writers have done. That seem odd to me. Tell me if, tell me if these are no-nos, um, having a pad of paper out and just doodling the entire time while everyone's talking.

Michael: (12:06)

And that happens, uh, you gotta have balls. Cause they see some older writers doing that, a more experienced writers. Even. That's not really a good form. Like it's an, and I'm guilty of it too. I'd take out my phone and I'm looking at my phone. You should definitely shouldn't. You should not

Phil: (12:19)

Be. That was my next to national

Michael: (12:22)

phone away. And I'm guilty of it. But some people, sometimes they do it all and maybe they think it helps their expression, but it doesn't like it releases their mind and releases their creativity. But to the other people, maybe it does, maybe that's the truth, but to the outside bystanders, it just looks like you're doodling your board away. Yeah. It looks at your right. So put that away. Um, I don't, I'm not a good doodler, so I don't have that problem. All right.

Phil: (12:46)

So say I'm a new staff writer, what time? And the writer's room starts at 9:00 AM. What time should I be there? If it's

Michael: (12:52)

No writer's room starts at 9:00 AM. Right. And it usually starts at 10. The writers or writers are always like that's show up to work at later. Um, but I'd say it was a 10. You get your in the seat at nine 50 and you don't want to be the last per, you never want to be the last person to sit. You never want to leave the showrunner waiting for you. I see that happen all the time. Like, are you out of your mind? Don't wait. You know, no man being in your seat before everyone else. And I, and even now as a co-executor I'm in, if I, if I'm not running the show, I'm in my seat before everyone else, it just seems wrong to keep the boss waiting.

Phil: (13:26)

Right. Okay. So next, um, let's say that the writer's PA comes in and he's taken everyone's lunch orders. How much time slash how picky should I be with my order?

Michael: (13:38)

Oh, wow. Yeah. I haven't really thought about that. Uh, if you can make it funny, then you can take as much time as you want, you know? Cause if you make the other writers laugh about how you deliberate, uh, you know, over your lunch order, that could be a funny routine. But um, if not, uh, then you're just a pre-madonna, you know, don't just pick something out and move it on. You don't want to hold, you don't want to hold up the room. You don't want to be often in a writer's room. People are goofing around and they're just having fun and that's fine, but you never want to be the last person or the first person to go far out. But that's you let someone else be the last person. Cause you don't want to, you don't want the boss say, all right guys, settle down. You know, you don't want to be the last person to open your mouth. And even like today, I'm always considered of that guy, you know? And I'm, I'm in a pretty safe boat. I'm a, Co-Executive Producer with a lot of experience. So I wouldn't make that mistake. So why would a rookie writer make that mistake?

Phil: (14:28)

All right. What are there, have you seen any other big mistakes or subtle mistakes? Even that, uh, beginning staff writers were making?

Michael: (14:36)

Yeah. It's sometimes they'll fight the fight. The showrunner on what the tone of the show should be. You know? And it's like, man, this man or woman just sold the show, they sold it. It's that they got a show on there. That's pretty impressive. If you don't agree with them, then get your own show. This is their shot. And we are all here to help them get, realize their vision. Even if you don't not like their vision, it's their vision. Even if you think it's their, vision's going to get the show canceled. It's there, that's on them. We here to help them.

Michael: (15:12)

Hi guys. Michael Jamin here. I wanted to take a break from talking and talk just a little bit more. I think a lot of you guys are getting bad advice on the internet. I know this because I'm getting tagged. One guy tagged me with this. He said, I heard from a script reader in the industry and I was like, wait, what? Hold on, stop. My head blew up. I blacked out. And when I finally came to, I was like, listen, dude, there are no script readers in the industry by definition. These are people on the outside of the industry. They work part-time. They give their right arm to be in the industry. And instead they're giving you advice on what to do and you're paying for this. I mean, it just made me nuts, man. These people are unqualified to give my dog advice. By the way her script is coming along quite nicely.

Michael: (15:51)

And oh, and I'm a done another thing when I work with TV writers for a new one, I'm writing stamps. A lot of these guys flame out after 13 episodes. So they get this big break, they find it, they get in and then they flame out because they don't know what is expected of them on the job. And that said, because you know, it's not going to happen again. So to fight all this, to flush all this bad stuff out of your head, I post daily tips on social media. You can find me on Instagram and TikTok and Facebook @MichaelJaminwriter. If you don't have time, two minutes a day to devote towards improving your craft guys, it's not going to happen. Let's just be honest. So go find, make it happen. All right. Now, back to my previous,

Phil: (16:33)

Do you feel like you've seen that throughout your 26 years? Is it a common problem or do, would you say it's becoming more of a problem with younger reps?

Michael: (16:41)

You know, as I get older, eh, you millennials, but um, I, I see it every year. I see a young writer make that mistake and get fired and I really don't get fired. They don't get asked back to season two, which is

Phil: (16:53)

Equivalently being the equivalent to being fired.

Michael: (16:55)

Yeah. Yeah. And you can, you can tell, like I remember we were on a show and, and none of the execs was like, we found this great young writer who did a show. We did a year on this very high profile show and I'm like, they only did a year. Huh. And you want to hire them and you think they're going to be, they only did a year because they were fired off that show. So they have a great credit. But if they only get a year off a hit show it's cause they were fired off that show. Why do you want this person? And I was right. I turned person turned out to be a disaster.

Phil: (17:26)

Yeah, got it. Yeah. I asked because it does seem to me as a millennial that even in my business, the millennials tend to be a little bit more entitled. They seem to think that they have a right to argue with me about how things are done. And it's not about ego. It's not about saying like, I'm right. You're wrong. Like I want to hear what they have to say. Cause I'm aware, like I may not have all the best and I hired you and I pay you money because you have unique insights that I don't have you supposed to make my job better. But you know, ultimately I recently just had someone quit because I'm toxic because I held them accountable. Right. Right. And so I I'm seeing that. And I'm wondering if that's how it translates, but it's interesting to know that it's, it's a perpetual problem. Well,

Michael: (18:13)

You know, the job of a staff writer is you're there at the, at the executive producers. Pleasure. And you're, you're there to make the, so if I picture a line or a story idea that the boss does, the showrunner does not like, or we argue over a point, like I make my case, they hear it, they make a decision and then we move on. I don't keep arguing with them. I don't try to change their mind after that. I'm like, okay, move on. You heard me good. Now I haven't heard you felt, I feel heard let's move on. I will do what you want.

Phil: (18:43)

Hmm. You know? Uh, what else can you ask for? I think, right. But yeah. You know, so ultimately it sounds like you just need to know your place and you need to read the room and you need to understand. So what I would consider to be basic social skills.

Michael: (18:54)

Yeah. There's a lot of that. A lot of basic social skills. Um, yeah. And that it's odd that people don't pick up on that. And I'm always, yeah. I always try to be aware of other people, uh, now, uh, nowadays, by the way, I meant to point out in my little, my little show notes, um, the studios are, are making definitely more of an effort for diversity and stats. And so, I mean, I, and when I see people complain on Twitter, I'm like, uh, yeah, I don't know what you're talking about. I, from what I see the, uh, they are, uh, the, the effort that they're making is very sincere and they are putting money behind it. And so they are definitely making a conscious effort to have a, you know, just a broader range of people in it so that more voices can be heard. And so if you're complaining, well, no, they're not, well maybe, cause they're not hiring you, but I see it on my end. They are hiring people like you. So

Phil: (19:44)

Yeah, no, I I've. I've seen that. Um, in the short time I've been here, there's definitely a concerted effort to get minorities and underrepresented people into shows and all shows, not necessarily just shows with an ethnic, you know, tone or voice. Exactly.

Michael: (20:00)

Right. Yeah.

Phil: (20:01)

Hmm. Well, let's go back a little bit because I think one of the things we might've passed over is like, how, how are you picking staff writers? You talked about how you go top to bottom, you know, typically higher level down, but how are you getting in contact with people? How are you finding scripts from new writers? How are you making those introductions? Okay,

Michael: (20:20)

Well usually you, you, uh, when you're running a show, you call your agent, say, Hey, we're hiring, send over your, you know, some, some young writers and they, next thing you know, you have a stack of, you know, giant stack of scripts and, uh, from your agent and from the other competing talent agencies, and you have so many scripts that y'all pick up one and I'll start reading. And if I get to bites page four or five, and if I'm not hooked on the story next, so forget about the end, forget about this idea that wait till the end, it gets great at the end. Nope. I'm not waiting. I'm picking up another script and find somebody else

Phil: (20:52)

Let's narrow in on that. If you don't mind, what is it that stands out to you in those first four pages? Like how do you know or what gives it away that this is a good writer?

Michael: (21:02)

Well, for, well, I work in mostly comedy, so there better be a really good laugh on by the end of page three. I hopefully I remember, uh, when my partner were writing specs, like, man, we want to come up page one, boom, with a big, hard joke, like a big laugh. It could be, you know, a real swing. So I'm looking for that. But also I want to know, has the story started, you know, when, how to start a story, has it begun yet? And cause until the story starts, and this is something that I talk about in my course, right? Like what does that mean? When a story starts? Uh, I go into a great detail because it's hard. It's important to understand, but if the story hasn't started by page three or four next, and by the way, you will be just as guilty. If you're watching a TV show and they don't start the story, you pick up your moat next, what else is on? So you're, you're, you're no different than me when I'm hiring, we have the same criteria, you know?

Phil: (21:53)

Got it, got it. So a big laugh they're taking, you know, they're, they're implementing the tone of the story, right?

Michael: (21:59)

Yeah. I want a big, I want a big swing man. Yeah. Go for it. And the gate, get my attention.

Phil: (22:05)

Got it. And then store it. Um, we don't need to dive too far into story. Cause I know you covered that in your course on a lot of your social media stuff. So if anyone listening, hasn't isn't following Michael check out his Instagram, uh, Michael Jamin writer. He's got a ton of tips on that stuff and that's one of the topics I always covered. All of me

Michael: (22:20)

Guys follow me. I'll lead you over the cliff.

Phil: (22:24)

You've made comments to me before, like the pied Piper

Michael: (22:28)

Cut that part out.

Phil: (22:30)

So as far as, um, you you've made comments to me before, about when you were reading these stack of scripts, you're really like the, you're looking for someone to do you a favor and to make it so you don't have to continue reading those.

Michael: (22:43)

Yeah. I'm begging like I want, it's not like I don't have like an attitude, like impressing me young. Like I'm begging, please. Someone should give me a script that really impresses me. I want to hire you so I can stop reading the other 90 scripts on my desk. I don't want to read anymore. I don't want to do that. I want to ha I, you know, and once if you're a great, if you know how to write a script, you do, you're doing me a favor because it's not the other way around. I need you on the show. You're doing me a favor and we will hire. We were, um, we were staffing on, on written link. Uh, we were reading, it's a show we ran a couple of years ago. Uh, we read a lot of scripts and I was like, ah, no, no, no, not really. No. And then one finally made its way into my desk and I was like only a few pages into it and was like, hire this guy, hire him now I don't need to read anymore. I don't want to lose him, hire him now because I don't want to read anymore. And he impressed me. And that's how, and that was that. Yeah.

Phil: (23:39)

And did that write a workout? Yeah.

Michael: (23:41)

Yeah, he was, he was very talented, you know, turning into drafts.

Phil: (23:45)

There you go. Then probably still working my guess. Yeah. That's incredible. That's awesome. Okay. So now that I'm a staff writer, um, is there anything else that you think that I need to know in terms of like, how can I be a better staff writer? Obviously it's good drafts. It's perf it's being, knowing your place in the room and fulfilling that role. But is there anything related to like, is there homework I could do, should I, obviously I should watch this show, but is there anything that helps me like pay attention to like the voice of those characters or anything like that?

Michael: (24:19)

I remember actually I think it was two years ago in Tacoma, FD, the show I'm currently co-executive producer on one of the writers came in with a list of story ideas that they wanted, they were going to pitch and I'm like, yeah, let's hear them. And most of them weren't very good, but I was like, there's gotta be something in here. And it saved me the effort of it. Cause I w I didn't have a list of ideas. I was like, I was like, yeah, if you have a great idea, let's do that. And, uh, so I thought that was really good on their part, that they were prepared and they, you know, and they had some ideas that they were brought to the table and I'm, I'm perfectly happy to pitch if they got to go to, yeah, I'm happy to pitch on that idea.

Michael: (24:52)

You know, I was like, good for you for being prepared. Other than that, it's a really good opportunity. They can use this as an opportunity to learn. And instead of being argumentative, if, you know, you'll you'll know pretty quick, which writers are the ones who can, you can learn from because they're the ones that everyone's kind of paying attention to and figure, you know, watch what they're doing and try to get on their page and try to get into their head because that's a person that education is invaluable. So you don't always have to be working. You can also be learning. Hmm.

Phil: (25:25)

Hmm. That's a good note. Awesome. You have, you have a note here on our notes. Don't need joke. People are idea people. Okay.

Michael: (25:33)

Oh, don't joke. What does that mean? Um, uh, oh, sometimes. Oh, wait. I was a question that someone asked, asked me on Instagram, um, was like, how, how does their division of labor work? Or some people just idea. People are some people just joke people. And I, that may, may have been the case back in the eighties or something when money was flowing, but now you're kind of expected to do everything. But the Mo the most important function is story. Do you understand story? Can you help contribute in that way? And that's very hard. As far as joke people, I always feel like that's, that comes in last. That's like picking the, uh, the color that you want to paint the walls. First, you have to build the house that you have to construct the house. So, uh, I was actually, yeah, so that was in response to a question like what, uh, what, you know, how does the division of labor?

Michael: (26:24)

So we talked about this in one of the other episodes we did is like, some people think that the writers' room works like, well, one writer writes for this character and the other writer writes for that character. It's like, no, no. When you put together a script, you go off, you write the script and you're writing for all the characters. And you're expected to the script, has to, the story structure has to be there. And it has to funny. So you have to be able to do both. And the trauma room. Of course, it's a little different, you don't have the burden of, uh, being funny. That's why the hours tend to be better and drama.

Phil: (26:51)

Yeah. And that's something you want still me. Um, it's easy to kill people. It's hard to make them laugh.

Michael: (26:57)

Yeah. Well, that's like an old thing and knowledge it's like dying. Uh, you know, w w was it dying? Dying is, is easy. Uh, laughter is hard. Getting people to laugh is, is, is much harder. Comedy is very, very hard. Yeah.

Phil: (27:09)

Got, got it. It doesn't have a note here. Um, don't you don't need thread polars. Is that the same thing as a doctor know? Or is it,

Michael: (27:16)

Yeah, yeah. What is this? You know, what ha well, like, but this does really make a hundred percent logic here, you know, it's was like, oh yeah, yay. You know? Yeah, yeah. A lot here comes the logic, please. Everyone hide I'm let me, of course, you know, if something is egregious, then you don't want to do it, but there are some people who think they're getting bonus points by pointing something out that like, like we've been working on this for the story air for four hours. And no one thought about it now, like, obviously it's not going to be a problem when you're watching it on TV without, you know, with your phone in your hand and read a magazine and the other so that, you know, no, one's really paying attention to that closely. Yeah.

Phil: (27:57)

Got it. All right. And then, uh, lastly, I know there's this, there's this topic that's come up a couple of times and recently happened in, in Tacoma, FDA where, you know, we have our script coordinator. Mike Rapp is just an awesome guy. He was actually given the opportunity to write a freelance episode of our show. So he wrote an episode that is airing soon. I think it's episode 3 0 4 of this upcoming season. And he's he wrote an episode, um, how to freelance episode works, uh, obviously as a staff writer, I'm assuming you're going to get the opportunity to write an episode, but yeah. How do, how do we do the freelance thing?

Michael: (28:34)

You know, the guilt has a stipulated. They, they have to, for every certain number of episodes that you produce, or in a season, a certain X number have to go to freelance. Uh, and if they don't, then the show has to pay a penalty. Often in the old days, they would often hire outside freelancers, just experienced writers. And I'm talking to the old days, like in the seventies. Um, but now there is a shift towards giving those freelance opportunities to people who are staff that's on the show, support staff. So like writer's assistants and script coordinators, people who've kind of paid their dues and you give them a shot.

Phil: (29:07)

Hmm. Got it. Now I, this is, I think, topically relevant because recently on Twitter I saw someone complaining about how, oh, I have I'm on a show. And it seems like the showrunner just wants to give these freelance opportunities to their friends, rather than giving them to the support staff. They'd rather pay a penalty instead of giving it to the writer's assistant or whoever, and make sure that their friends get a job or get a gig. Um, my feeling on that when I read it was, or is it that those lower level staff have not impressed the show runner enough to say, I think this person can do this.

Michael: (29:44)

Yeah. Because that's probably what's happening is that, you know, they, before you get to freelance, you, the boss is going to want to read a sample of your work. And so it better be really good and, you know, giving a freelance to anyone, you know, it really puts the showrunner a little bit behind the April, because if it doesn't come in good and most do not, it's going to need a giant page, one rewrite. And now the show runner has to do that. And you know, and they're not getting extra money for doing that and they have to do it on their own time. So like, that's why we see that when I'm running a show, all I care about is, is the draft coming in good shape, because if it doesn't, I got to do it on my own time and you have so many other things to do.

Michael: (30:22)

I like, I, last thing I want to do is rewrite someone else's work from page one. And so if you give that opportunity to, to someone who isn't quite ready and it's very hard to be ready, you know, that's why it's so important to be educated and to be as prepared as you can. Uh, because, you know, actually we, we were my partner and we were a few years ago. Um, this happens a couple of times in our career, were they show, uh, the Kirsty reality, how Allie had a show on TV land called the Kirstie alley show was with Michael Richardson, Rhea Perlman. And so I guess they needed to have a couple of freelances and they were a little bit behind the eight ball. And they, we had some friends in the show and they said, Hey, these guys will do it. And we had nothing going on at that time.

Michael: (31:06)

And so they hired us to do this freelance and it was great. And we went in, we banged it, we hit it out of the park. Everyone loved it. Like the whole staff loved it. And everyone was relieved that we did a good job because it just makes their job easier. But, um, yeah, maybe now if they had did it, that was few years ago, maybe now they would just give it to, uh, I don't know the staff right. Or, uh, or writers assistant, I only think they could at the time, because they just, th they script had to come in. Good. So they had a high, they really had to hire experienced people to do

Phil: (31:33)

It. It's literally, there's no time to

Michael: (31:34)

Rewrite. There is no time.

Phil: (31:36)

Yeah. Interesting. Okay. Well, any other thoughts about getting staffed or how your staffing shows you think that would be helpful for people to know? I think,

Michael: (31:46)

I think I covered it. Um, but again, it's all about, this is your opportunity. This is your shot, and you're not gonna get too many shots. So you have to be prepared, you know?

Phil: (31:54)

Yeah. Preparation is have specs, have pilots be able to understand what story structure is and understand how to understand your role. Yeah. It sounds like,

Michael: (32:05)

And like I said, showrunners, are looking. We are begging you to understand that if you understand that you're hired because we need you. And so it's not it. So it's not a favor. You're not doing, you know, you're doing us a favor. And so the other way around.

Phil: (32:17)

Just another thing you've always said, Hollywood needs a good writers. Yeah. Yeah. Great. Thank you, Michael. Thanks everybody for listening.

Michael: (32:23)

Yeah. Thank you guys.

Phil: (32:25)

We'll catch you on the next one.

Phil: (32:40)

This has been an episode of screenwriters. Need to hear this with Michael Jackson and Phil Hudson. If you'd like to support this podcast, please consider subscribing leaving a review and sharing this podcast with someone who needs to hear today's subject. If you're looking to support yourself, I encourage you to consider investing in Michael's screenwriting course michaeljamin.com/course. I've known Michael for over a decade. And in the past seven years, I've begged him to put something together during the global COVID-19 pandemic. Michael had time. And I have to say, I wish I'd had this course 10 years ago. As someone who has personally invested in most online courses, earned a bachelor's degree, and actively studied screenwriting for over a decade, this course has been more valuable to me than most of the effort I've put in because it focuses on something. No one else teaches: story. In his course, Michael pulls back the curtain and shows you exactly what the pros do in a writer's room. And that knowledge has made all the difference for me. And I know it will for you too. You can find more information michaeljamin.com/course. For free daily screenwriting tips, follow Michael on Instagram, Facebook, and TikTok @MichaelJaminWriter. You can follow me on Instagram, Facebook, and TikTok @philahudson. This episode was produced by Phil Hudson and edited by Dallas Crane. Until next time, keep writing.

Michael Jamin and Phil Hudson explain why this popular question is not the right question to ask, and what you should be doing instead. Learn things you can do today to make breaking into Hollywood easier.

https://michaeljamin.com/course - Michael Jamin's Online Screenwriting Course.

https://michaeljamin.com/free - Free Screenwriting Lesson

https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0588005/ - Bruce Miller's IMDB ( Showrunner of The Handmaids Tale)

https://www.vox.com/culture/2017/6/7/15736998/margaret-atwood-bruce-miller-handmaids-tale - Bruce Miller and Margaret Atwood discuss adapting The Handmaid's Tale for TV.

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1839578/ - Person of Interest, Jonah Nolan's TV Show Phil couldn't remember.

https://www.wgfoundation.org/ - The Writer's Guild Foundation Official Website

Michael: (00:00)

So today's episode, welcome everyone. We're talking about selling a TV show. And before we begin, I'm going to start with a little story that I think might help everyone understand, uh, selling a TV show. So imagine, imagine Phil that we are, uh, we have a business venture and this venture is going to cost us around maybe 10 or $20 million. But we stand to make, uh, from this hundreds of millions of dollars, but what we need to do to make all this money, we got to get a pilot and we gotta get, uh, a plane, someone who's going to track who will fly us all around the world. Cause this is an international thing. We gotta, we need to fly all across the world. All right. So we've we found this guy on the internet and his, according to the pictures, the plane looks really nice.

Michael: (01:41)

It looks pretty good. Right? We go check it out. Me and you, we check it out and, and uh, we go inside the plane. It's really, it looks great. It's got wings, it's got nice furniture. It's set up. It's because it looks like it's the right size for us. And then we talked to the pilot because we need the pilot with the plane and we say, Hey man, this is a really nice plane. You, you got here. And he says, yeah, I built it myself. And we're like, that's pretty impressive. You built this all by yourself. Good for you. And then we asked, so, um, you know, how long have you, have you been a pilot? And then he says, well, I have never been a pilot before. Really? Now you just built this. He just, he's a, been a fan of planes for a long, long time.

Michael: (02:19)

He likes going to the airport, he watches the planes land and take off really. Okay. So, but uh, like what else do you know much about, please know, I've never actually been inside of a plane, never flown in a plane at all. And we're like, oh, okay, well, we're kind of looking for someone with experience because this business venture, we got to fly all across the world. The airports, some are gonna be big. Some are gonna be small. We're gonna fly at night. It could be bad weather. It could be tricky airports. And we're kind of looking for someone with experience to fly this plane for us. Cause it's a big business venture. And this guy is like, yeah, well, I don't need any of that. I built this plane. And even though I'm not a pilot, never flown a plane, uh, you should still hire me and my plane because look how beautiful it looks. So what'd you say fell. Should we make cut a deal with this guy? Or keep moving? Yeah.

Phil: (03:02)

Pass hard pass. That's a hard

Michael: (03:04)

Pass. Okay. So let's just swap the word airline pilot for a television pilot. Yeah. It's the same thing. Right? So a lot of people say, well, how do I sell my pilot? And that the truth is like, well, you don't because a network is going to want someone with experience because there's all sorts of troubles that come up when you're making a TV show. And uh, and you need an experienced pilot at the, at the helm to troubleshoot because I, you know, and that's what they're paying. They're, they're trying to protect their investment at this point. They're not trying to, um, cheap out and get someone, some DIY guy. Right.

Phil: (03:41)

Would you, if you stand to make that much of a return on an investment, uh, yeah, you're gonna, you're gonna S you're gonna pay the price. You need to, to close that deal.

Michael: (03:51)

Right. Right. And they're not really, so the network, I guess, like in the old days, it was a little different. When I say the old days, like before streaming, the network was really, they really wanted to get, when you sell a pilot, they weren't really buying the pilot. They were buying the hopes of a hundred episodes for, they could make all that money. And now with streaming, it's like, like Netflix, they really hope to do that. Their business model is different. So they'll try to do maybe three seasons of like 12 episodes each, but they still want consistently good episodes. They still in that. And that's why they are, they're paying, you know, who are they going to? If they're going to buy a pilot, who are they going to buy it from? They're going to buy either from me or the guy who been DIY guy listening to the podcast here. And so, but that's not to say they can't sell. I mean, I don't want to discourage anybody from selling a pilot, but there are steps that you want to take to, to, uh, increase your eyes, you know? Okay.

Phil: (04:43)

So, so let me ask this question then. Um, would you consider these spec deals that come in, where someone puts up a spec pilot and it sells, would you consider that a fluke or would you consider that to be common or would you consider it to be, um, almost an everyday experience?

Michael: (05:01)

I think you read about it because it's so unusual. So I kind of think it's a fluke and, but often they spec pilots. Uh, I don't really meet, I don't read many of the spec files and when they do sell, if they do sell, they always team me up with an experienced showrunner because they're never going to turn over the reins to someone who's never done it before. They'll hire someone to oversee it for you and it's Dennis. And by the way, then it's not really, you know, you're not at the helm, so it's not, you don't really determine the direction of the show. Someone else is doing it for you because that's how it works because they want that

Phil: (05:31)

Your investment, you know, it's interesting when you're a young writer, you think of these romantic things you hear about, you know, I know myself, I suffer from what I would call prodigy syndrome, where I feel like since a young age, I've had to just grand slam every single thing that I do. And that creates a lot of fear and anxiety to try, because there's this fear of failure and our identity is tied to that stuff. But at the same time you think about these things, you know, I was like, oh yeah, I'm going to go out. I'm going to win the Nicholls fellowship. And my first film's going to be an academy award winner because I'm going to be put that much effort into, and then, you know, there's a lot of naivete that comes with doing it. And there's a balance of, you have to have, you have to be naive to put in the effort, but at the same time, you have to understand how the business works, to know how to get things done. And that's something that's become more apparent as I've lived in LA for the last five years.

Michael: (06:21)

Right. And you know, one thing I think aspiring writers don't understand is that pilot that you write on spec is really just a calling card so that you can get meetings and get on a staff job or maybe pitch another pilot. Like if you read a great pilot, whoever sees it, some producer or studio head, they're going to say, wow, this is really great. This is so well written. We love this. We want to be in business with you. Um, we want to exploit you.

Phil: (06:47)

Yeah, that's what I was gonna say. Why did they, why did they say this is great. I want to be in business with you. Yeah. You

Michael: (06:52)

To want to make money off you. It's not to help you realize your dream At dollar signs. Exactly. And so it's not like, it's not like, you know, you may have this pilot that you love and it's so personal in your heart, but that's not what they want to buy. They, they, what they will really want is the hire you on a different project. They want to make their idea. And even with me and my partner, we very rarely sell pilots that we want to sell. We sell pilots that someone wants to buy. There's a huge difference.

Phil: (07:19)

Yeah. This is an interesting thing. So in preparing for this podcast, I actually busted out some of my screenwriting books over here that I've read throughout the years. And one of them talks specifically about this. And they're like, when you go into pitch and you're pitching your feature, because it looks on feature writing, it says, you have to remember, like, the goal is not really to sell your feature it's to impress them so much that they think, man, that's a good writer so that they bring you back to write the project they want.

Michael: (07:44)

That's exactly right. Right. And when you think of, think of a really good example, like, uh, Bruce Miller, who's the showrunner of the Handmaid's tale, which I think is brilliantly written show. Uh, you know, and that's based on a book, they're obviously Margaret Atwood's book. It's not like, I can't imagine Bruce Miller as a little kid lying in his bedroom dreaming one day to one day, hopefully run the TV version of the Handmaid's tale. Like that was not, he had his own ideas. I want to do a show about superheroes or whatever the hell he wanted to do, but it was not to do the Handmaid's tale. Right? So at some point I imagine the studio said, Hey, we have the rights to the Handmaid's tale. We're looking for writers to adapt into a TV show. And he won the auction. He, he won that great job. And, uh, and it's, you know, it'll probably change his career, but he has all, he had a long career before this on many, many other shows, ER, I think was his first show. So, uh, it's not like his dream was to make the Handmaid's tale. His dream was to do something else. This is just a great opportunity that that came in his way. And he, and he jumped.

Michael: (08:43)

Hi guys, it's Michael Jamin. I wanted to take a break from talking and talk just a little bit more. I think a lot of you, people are getting bad advice on the internet. Many, you want to break into the industry as writers or directors or actors, and some of you are paying for this advice on the internet. It's just bad. And as a working TV writer and showrunner, this burns my butt. So my goal is to flush a lot of this bad stuff out of your head and replace it with stuff that's actually going to help you. So I post daily tips on social media, go follow me @MichaelJaminWriter. You can find me on Instagram and Facebook and TikTok. And let's be honest, if you don't have time, like just two minutes a day towards improving your craft, it's not going to happen. So go make it happen for you @MichaelJaminWriter. Okay. Now back to my previous,

Phil: (09:29)

And this might be jumping ahead, but I think the overarching principle that I picked up from you, your course, and a lot of the things that you teach on your social media and from knowing you for, you know, almost a decade, it's really this like Hollywood wants good writers. Yeah. The reason he's getting that opportunity is because he's proven himself as a good writer. Right. And yeah. And so I think that begs the question. How does one become a good writer? Or what does that look like to impress these people when you're in the room? Yeah,

Michael: (09:58)

No one wants, as I often say, no one wants to answer that question. That's too hard. That would require a study in your craft and learning how to write. It's just much easier to, you know, Hey, I got a script and Hollywood's fair, unfair, and it's all about who, you know, and, and you know, it's all boys club, it's so much easier to blame Hollywood for your wives than it is to take responsibility and say, well, maybe my writing is not up to par.

Phil: (10:20)

Right. But when it goes back to, you know, your point about this as a business and they were trying to exploit you for dollars, it's because it is a business and that's why they call it the business. Right. I'm trying to get into the business show business. And you know, I saw this all the time when I was in, um, in film school is a liberal arts college. I was 28. It was a really strange moment when I realized how much older I was, then everyone else there, I somehow nine 11 came up and was like, oh, where were you? When nine 11 happened? I think I was in third grade. And I was like, I was in high school, like, oh my gosh, like I'm ancient compared to these kids. And they just wanted to, they wanted to make the art. They talked about their art. They didn't talk about their craft. And I think there's a difference between that. It is an art form, but it takes a craftsmen to do the job. Right?

Michael: (11:06)

Yeah. I think that's an example. S analogy my partner often make, which is, um, like we're Taylor, oh, you want cuffs on these pants? I'm like, okay, you can get cuffs. You want, oh, you want pleats? Sure. We'll give you pleats. No, you know, that's the, you know, I'm not gonna argue with you. If you're paying me money, I'll try to give you, I'll give you what you want. I'll try to make it as good as I can and be able to live with the result. So it's not horrendous horrendous, but at the end of the day, they're paying me, which means it's theirs. It's theirs, you know, that's I took money in exchange for this project. So it's there is now, right?

Phil: (11:37)

Yeah. Right. I mean, it's no different than anything else. I mean, my background is in the digital marketing world and web design and web development. And there's, it's, it's a common tale that no one will mess up. I project better than the client. Yeah.

Michael: (11:50)

Well, yeah. I mean, you got some, you got to keep them, prevent them from, from doing that. Right. I mean, in the end, you know, the studio executives, it's not like they want, you know, they want reassurance, they're hiring you, they're paying you to write the script and they want to feel that every time you make a decision, even if they don't agree with you, if you give them a reason why you're not doing it, they want to know that they're in good hands. So it's not like they always want to be a, they always want their way. They just want to be reassured because they want to protect their job. And they don't really, they don't know how to do my job, that they have a different job. They don't know how to be a screenwriter. Right. So, uh, often if you can reassure them or take their ID or convince them that your idea is their idea that goes along with it.

Phil: (12:32)

Yeah. So this goes back to the skill set that I'm very grateful that I fell into that I did not want to learn. And that sales just understanding it. And there's this great book by a guy named Tom Hopkins called how to master the art of selling. And I was given like the VP of sales at this company. I worked at handed to me and he was like, you need to learn this. And I open it. It's like from the seventies, it's from a seminar. He went to when he was a young salesman. And I was like, ah, man. And ultimately I had to come to the church to the realization, like I need money now. And I work a sales job. So as much as I'd love to just be sitting there writing screenplays all day, I need to learn how to master this craft. And as I'm reading through it, the big overarching thing that I learned is it's really just language, right? It's the way you refer to things. So, you know, if I say, Hey, I need you to sign this contract. Like red flags go up, you know, start sweating a little like, oh, what am I signing? But if I say, Hey, would you approve these documents? Right. It's a completely different feeling. Um, if I tell you, something's true than online, if you tell yourself something is true, that it has to be

Michael: (13:29)

True. Yeah. That makes sense. You know, one of the things I want to include in this con in this conversation about selling your sh your TV show, it's not so much that they're buying an idea, they're buying the execution of the idea. And so if you hire someone who hasn't, who has little experience, like if we give 10 writers the same mind, the same idea, you're going to get 10, very different screenplays. And so you're really buying the execution of it. And hopefully, you know, usually when you have more season's hand, uh, they will execute it better and they'll take, they'll know how to take notes better. And they, even if they don't take the note, they understand that you have to take the spirit of the note. And often young writers don't quite understand that. And I, at least, I, I know I didn't, when I was starting out, it was like, how do I take this note?

Michael: (14:15)

I don't know how to, you know, I don't have to do any of this. So that's, that comes with selling a TV show. So the way, the way in then the best way in, I believe is to become a staff writer on a show. And you do that for many years and you kind of learn your craft and you work your way up. And then back when my partner and I were starting, that that's kind of what we did. So we were F I think it was after seven or eight years, we were finally offered a development deal. And up until then, most people, most writers are saying, you know, put it off as long as you can't put it off, because you, you only get one shot to prove that you can do this the first or first one out, you know, then you're, you're damaged goods after that basically. But things have kind of changed a little bit where the market is so different. Now, I think people are rushing into selling pilots, and I guess for some people it's working, but, uh, I think for the long-term goal, you kind of don't really want to do that. And, you know, I would still recommend learn your craft first before you got and, and, you know, create your own show.

Phil: (15:14)

That's when we talk about the execution of an idea that this is something that I think about all the time, you know, you've made it clear and I've seen it in practice from the showrunners on the show I work on with you. Um, it's really about executing their vision of that and making their job easier. Right. It's how do we avoid page one rewrites and how do we make it? So the rewriting is a minimal because it's inevitably going to happen on out. Like imagine basically every script that comes in, they're going to change something. Yeah.

Michael: (15:44)

And if I fight them on, I can fight them all the way. If I'm the shower, I'm, I'm the co-executive producer. So I'm not the boss on this. It's a show my partner. And so the showrunners are the two stars and I could fight them. I could say, well, we shouldn't do it this way. And I get convinced. I could make all these arguments for why my way is better, whatever. And in the end, it's their show. They'll just effort, turn in the script. They'll just rewrite me anyway and they'll just him off. So I might as well give them what they want as close to what that is, what they want as I can. But how

Phil: (16:11)

Do you marry that with artistic integrity?

Michael: (16:13)

Yeah. I get a paycheck at the end of every week. That's my artistic integrity.

Phil: (16:18)

But, but can you feel ethical sabotaging your unique vision? I mean, they hired you for your unique take on these things, right? So how, how do you justify that?

Michael: (16:28)

No, they hired me to help them execute the kind of show that they want to make. And so my job is to, is to give them the best possible version of the show that they want to make, not the best kind of, not the best version of the Charlotte. I want to make the best version for that. They want to make. Right. Got it. So if I have artistic integrity or whatever, like, you know, I do save that for my side projects or whenever yeah.

Phil: (16:51)

Just cry yourself to sleep and wipe your tears of anxiety away with a hundred dollar bills.

Michael: (16:56)

Yeah. That's what I do every night. Just fan myself with this stack of money. There you go.

Phil: (17:01)

So, so, you know, it's interesting because what I'm hearing you say is when you're selling a pilot, when you're handling a pilot, you have to be the odds of you selling your pilot are low. Right. But you need that as a calling card to prove that you can do the job so that you can get a job. Right. And, and having a good pilot helps you get that first step, which is the job, right? Yeah. Um, and my experience, and this might be, you know, we're going to talk about this in another episode. My experience has always, what I'm seeing is you basically get the agent by having a job for them to sell. So effectively. I have impressed someone and they want to hire me, but now I am obligated to have an agent to get me staffed. Is that kind of how you see it?

Michael: (17:45)

I mean, it's so hard to get an a, it's like, it's hard to get a job without an agent. It's hard to get an agent without a job, is that that's the paradox. The minute you have some heat, in terms of someone wanting to hire you is the best time to go out and say, find an agency. Look, I have about to get a big paycheck. You don't even have to earn your money. I'm going to

Phil: (18:03)

Give you 10% of my paycheck,

Michael: (18:05)

Which you did not earn,

Phil: (18:07)

Which in the sales world, we call that a Bluebird, right? Like, Hey, there's a blooper just landed on my windshield, like Cinderella. And it's handing me a stack of cash. And I, as a sales rep will take that every single time, because it is a freebie, I don't have to cold call. I don't have to, I don't have to put in any time, energy or effort. And that will buoy me up to go put in the time, energy and effort on the other deal I'm actually working on. Right. Right. So, so you're handing them a Bluebird, right. And saying, I've got free money for you. And so it's a no brainer for the agent to bring you on at that point, because

Michael: (18:37)

Yeah. You feel you have, yeah. If you feel that it has legs, if you feel like they can turn, you turn it to something else. Often if, for example, someone's a writer's assistant will be able to sell an episode, uh, to the show and the show, you know, the short run and say, okay, we'll let you write a freelance episode. In that case, it may still be hard to get an agent because it's not quite, it's not, it's not quite the same as saying, well, I'm now a staff writer. They want to hear that.

Phil: (19:01)

Yeah. And you're not obligated from the writer's Guild because you're not a member of the writer's Guild and you haven't earned enough points to gain entry. So you could just get a check from that, right?

Michael: (19:11)

Yeah. Yeah. It could be a one-time, it could be a one-time thing and you never work again. So if, once you're on staff, it's a little different. Yeah. You know?

Phil: (19:19)

Right. Yeah. So, so going back to the subject of, of selling about, so we're not going to sell the pilot, but I need a good pilot in order to get an agent who will then hopefully get me

Michael: (19:30)

Staffed or at least to get a yes. Sometimes an agent. Right. We'll uh, we'll take you on if the pilot is great. If they really, if it's great, then they'll take you on. Yeah, yeah.

Phil: (19:41)

Right. So, so then what I'm hearing you say is you need to have a certain level of skill that comes through a certain level of craft that comes through in that pilot to impress someone. But then you're also saying 6, 7, 8 years of being a professional writer. You are still learning every single day and perfecting that craft and people are saying, take as long as you can, because you got one at bat here with your developmental,

Michael: (20:06)

That's kind of where it was. Now. It's a little different. Now. It seems like everyone with like two years of experiences or whatever, selling pilot, and it seems a little odd, but the industry has changed so much, uh, that that's kind of, yeah. People, I think people are developing sooner than they should. And, but, but that's, you know, when I broke in you and wouldn't even ride a pilot, you would never write a spec pilot. You would write a spec episode of a TV show. You would write us back Frazier friends or cheers. You'd write a sample episode of that. But now those shows don't really exist. There's no one or two shows that everyone watches because the audience is so fragmented. So now, um, agents and managers are, or even studio executives are telling people new writers that they should write a, um, basically a spec pilot create from whole cloth, their own TV show, which I think is really unfair because that's a whole different skill of creating a world as a whole different skillset from, uh, from actually just writing one episode of the show that's already on there. You don't have to create the characters. You just to envision an episode, uh, you know, a plot for these characters for that week. And so, and by the way, when I'm, if I'm running a show, I don't need a staff writer to create a new world. I just need them to, can they mimic the world that already exists. So I really think it's an unfair, uh, assignment that it's given to new writers. And I it's just, it sucks. There's no way around it.

Phil: (21:32)

Yeah. So you've mentioned to me in the past that, you know, and when I was in film school, they said, you know, write spec episodes. So like I wrote a spec Mr. Robot, because I had a tech background and that's what my professor recommended I do. Um, but at the same time, you've also mentioned that I should write specs that match certain tones to show that I have range in the different types of shows. So if someone, so let's say I'm going into a pitch for Tacoma FD. I could show something along the lines of super troopers or that, that heavy comedy tone that's very jokey or is very right, which is a completely different tone.

Michael: (22:07)

Right. Uh, and another example would be a spec family guy, which is an animated show. If you have a spec family guy, that's not going to get you on BoJack horseman, which you know, which was way more realistic, even though they're both cartoons. So yeah. You want to have the tone match the show, which is why you need so many different specs. And I, and then again, we're getting into the, it's so weird, like when I'm hiring, I would, I prefer to read a spec of a show that I'm, that, that I'm familiar with. But again, the other, the other side of the business, they're telling you

Phil: (22:39)

No dry pilots. So would that advice still apply that I should write multiple pilots in multiple tones to match the tones of popular TV shows or shows that I'd like to be similar to what I can basically just show calling cards and say, this is a pilot I wrote that I'm proud of. That matches the tone of your show.

Michael: (22:56)

Yeah, exactly. And we just had that situation where we were up at my partner and I were up for running a show that's currently on the air and the show, uh, we had, we have many samples that we could send out. So we had to decide which sample matched the tone best of their show. So,

Phil: (23:10)

Okay. So, so the practice of writing a pilot, it's not only helping me hone my craft, but it's also helping me establish a library of samples based on the, it was just going to increase my job opportunities, right? Yeah. Almost like, uh, you know, growing up in Oklahoma that we had different fishing lures for different types of fish, they, they attract different fish. And so to me, it sounds like you're basically baiting your hook or putting, using a different lure to catch the fish that you're trying to catch. Yeah.

Michael: (23:37)

Yeah. That's exactly

Phil: (23:38)

It. Interesting. I did have that conversation with, uh, with a show showrunner recently as well. And he brought up the fact that, you know, one of the, one of the staff writers that he hired as a baby writer, they turned in a script and it was very much, it was like, this is obviously based on the writer's life. Like it follows them coming to LA trying to get a job in Hollywood. And he said, it didn't really match what I was looking for. And, but it was the best that I saw. And the other side of that, unfortunately, is I have no idea, no idea how long that person worked on that pilot. They could've been working on it for four years. Yeah. Right. Yeah. So how do you, how do you navigate that? Like, is there any way to show that you have more skill set when you're in that situation where you're, when you're trying to get staffed?

Michael: (24:24)

No, it's often, um, you know, when you're staffing someone look at me, a stack of like a hundred scripts, you know, you have a lot of scripts of new writers and I will read like the first five pages of each one. And then if it's, if I, if I'm not impressed with the first five, I'd just toss it because why? Because I have 99 more to go. And so if those first five pages are not wowing me, if they don't do all the requirements of hitting what a story needs to be, uh, I toss it and that may seem cruel and unfair, but like, what would you do if you were in my shoes? Like you would. Yeah.

Phil: (24:57)

Yeah. You know how to maximize time. Like you have time, you want to spend with your, I think you told me a story once when you were on Marin and like, you had to clean up, like you were in a crack house shooting all day and you had to read scripts still. Like, you're like, I don't, I don't want to read the scripts. I want to be at home with my family. Yeah. Like, but I'm here sitting in a crack house. Yeah. Yeah.

Michael: (25:15)

It was exactly that we shot in a crack house. So yeah. I mean, you got to, the reality is, and it's the same way, actually, even when I'm kicking over casting, uh, you know, it's that love that you used to cast in person, but now it's all people said, submit on recordings. And you know, if you have to get to a hundred actors, you're not going to watch the whole audition. You're going to say next, you know, you're just going to flip it to the next one. And it seems cruel. But at the end of the day, at the end of the day, one writer or one actor is going to get that job. There's only spot only room for one. And does it matter how I get to that one person, one, person's going to be happy. Right. And 99 are gonna be disappointed. So it's really up to you to, to come out of the gates swinging.

Phil: (25:54)

Yeah. When I moved from first moved here, um, you know, when you moved to LA, like I'd been to LA many times for concerts and things. And I refuse to look at the Hollywood sign until I lived in LA. Like, it was just like this weird magic I had to say, I live in Los Angeles and I am here to be a writer. And I remember the first time I saw that sign, I was like, oh, that's pretty cool. But nothing compared to, yeah. I was going to say, seeing, you know, eating a Cantor for the first time, get funny, but, but really it was when I saw the writer's Guild building on Fairfax, like all of a sudden, like, man, there's just this awesome moment. So I did some research and I found out that you can attend writers Guild. Um, what is it, uh, it's their nonprofit arm, the writers Guild foundation, right?

Phil: (26:37)

Maybe they have events almost every single week that you can attend with working writers. And they have this thing called the ticket and it was a thousand dollars. And I mean, that's a hefty price even for me, but I decided it was an awesome opportunity because you got invited to every single event and front row seats, reserved seats and all of the, all of the events they had, you got to attend to the VIP parties. So I did that. And, uh, one of the events was, uh, a workshop with Jonah Nolan, um, talking about, uh, Westworld. And he gave an advice similar to your point about the five pages. Uh, he said, when I read your script, I, I, something better happened by the bottom of the first page or I'm done. Yeah, yeah. Right. Like he says, I know everything I need to know about you as a writer, by the end of the first page.

Phil: (27:24)

And he talked about like one spec he read for, um, his other show, which was, uh, what was his other show? I'm blanking on it. It ran for forever. I had to do Jim Caviezel in it. Um, but anyway, yeah, they'll come to me in a second. But anyway, he said that, uh, he read a writer's script and he's like, he's like, it was filthy. It had nothing to do with our show. And it was just absolutely filthy. But his voice was so interesting that we hired him because he had something to say at the bottom of the first page. Right. So it seems like that's really, it it's, you know, to your point, it's the expression and execution of an idea, not just the idea and having something to say early on. Okay.

Michael: (28:04)

Yeah. And also like people say, oh, it's going to get, wait till it gets good. Like, wait until it gets good, dude. I'm not waiting till it. You know, you have to start good. I'm not going to ever the ending is going to blow you away. Well, no, one's going to get to the ending. You know,

Phil: (28:18)

I remember the first, the first spec episode I ever wrote was a spec workaholics. And you were kind enough to read it and to be fair to you, I was way too new to send you anything to read at the time, because looking back on it, it was awful, but you read it and you're like, yeah, it seems like you kind of Frankensteined some stuff here, which is just like disheartening to hear, but it's very true. And you said the end was funny. So now you're, you have to start with that. Yeah. You have to start with the funniest thing in your script and then you have to be better than that. Moving forward. I just remember sitting there thinking like, oh my gosh, that was the FA like, it took forever to come up with that ending. Like how could I ever come up with anything funnier than that? And you know, as you're, as you get better at your craft through practice and practice and practice, you're looking back at it now. I was like, I wasn't even really that funny. Like we can come up with a way better.

Michael: (29:05)

Of course, of course you can. Yeah. And you, um, yeah. I mean, we helped you to become less precious and less yeah. Less attached. The more you write, the less attached you are to what you write. And so, because you have more of a body of work and you're like, if someone doesn't like a joke or something or a moment, or I find a throw dog, I'll come up with another one. Yeah. No big deal.

Phil: (29:25)

Yeah. Right, right. So it seems like the answer really is you just need to be good at your craft and you need to be able to execute it on the page. And if you can do those things, that's, that's how you get a job. Yeah. Um, you, you gave me a note a long time ago. Um, it was an, I remember as an email, it was right when I went to film school and I sent an email asking you a question, and you said, um, Hollywood needs good writers.

Phil: (29:58)

This has been an episode of screenwriters. Need to hear this with Michael Jackson and Phil Hudson. If you'd like to support this podcast, please consider subscribing leaving a review and sharing this podcast with someone who needs to hear today's subject. If you're looking to support yourself, I encourage you to consider investing in Michael's screenwriting course michaeljamin.com/course. I've known Michael for over a decade. And in the past seven years, I've begged him to put something together during the global COVID-19 pandemic. Michael had time. And I have to say, I wish I'd had this course 10 years ago. As someone who has personally invested in most online courses, earned a bachelor's degree, and actively studied screenwriting for over a decade, this course has been more valuable to me than most of the effort I've put in because it focuses on something. No one else teaches: story. In his course, Michael pulls back the curtain and shows you exactly what the pros do in a writer's room. And that knowledge has made all the difference for me. And I know it will for you too. You can find more information michaeljamin.com/course. For free daily screenwriting tips, follow Michael on Instagram, Facebook, and TikTok @MichaelJaminWriter. You can follow me on Instagram, Facebook, and TikTok @philahudson. This episode was produced by Phil Hudson and edited by Dallas Crane. Until next time, keep writing.