What The Hell Is Michael Jamin Talking About?

On this week's episode, I talk about how writing requires you to continually build mountains. Even though some things you do for your craft might seem small, they add to what you are trying to build. The bigger the mountain you have, the more you will stand out.

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Michael Jamin:

Everything you want. Life has comes with a price, everything. And it's either, if you, if you chase your dreams, you're gonna pay in sacrifice. And if you don't, you're gonna pay in regret. And you get to decide which one do you want to pay. But most people, I think, think that regret is a steeper price to pay. But so I don't understand what the hesitation is in not building your mountain. It's gonna take years and years, but so what else are you gonna do? Time's passing. Anyway, what else are you gonna do? You're listening to screenwriters Need to hear this with Michael Jamin. Hey everyone, it's Michael Jamin. We're back with Screenwriters. Need to hear this. And I'm here with Phil, Phil Hudson. What up, what up? And we're doing another episode. We're gonna, we're we have a topic. I did a post a I love how you just jump right into this, Phil. A lot of podcasts, they just, they bullshit for a while. But we don't put any fluff in this fluff, except for what I just said right now, that's fluff. This is, but this

Phil Hudson:

Is explanation. And, and what I'm doing is explanation.

Michael Jamin:

But yeah. So this, what we're this idea is called building a Mountain. And I did a post, I don't know, a week or two ago about that subject. And I wanted to just go talk about it a little bit more. I did a post on social media. You should be following me there. By the way, everyone at Michael Gman, writer, I post every day. So I did a post called Building a Mountain, and there's a great quote by Sylvester Stallone. And he, his advice is, is to build a mountain climate and then build another mountain. And this refers to everything you do in life. And I remember when he said this, I thought what was so smart about that quote was, he's not saying find a mountain and climate. He's saying build a mountain. And climate, which is even more work. And I think this is important to talk about in people who wanna break into Hollywood as a screenwriter, as actors, directors, whatever.

Because, you know, you, this is a mountain you have to climb. And, and everyone knows it's hard to break in. And once you're in, you still have to climb a mountain. And I just wanted to talk more about what that really means. Not just climbing it, but building it. Because building a mountain is even more work. You know, building a mountain requires you getting all the rocks in a sled and dumping them in a pile, and then starting your, your climb. You, you have to do all this work before you even start climbing the mountain. And I know it looks like work, but that's how you stand out. Cause most people don't wanna do it. Most people simply don't. Like you'll stand out if you build a mountain, forget about climbing it. Like no one does that. And if you start building a mountain, day after day, whatever that looks like for you, whether it's working on your script or actually shooting something, or working on someone else's script or pro, or helping them, whatever that mountain looks like, whatever the mo, whatever more work you could possibly do, I say sign up for it.

Because people will look at you like, look at that lunatic over there. Look what they're doing every day. They must be committed. There must be, they're doing things. And when I think about, I wanna just talk more about what that could possibly look like, building a mountain. And I actually see people building mountains all the time, and they get my attention and they think that's what happens. Hmm. And I was, this is gonna surprise you, Phil. So like, you know, we have a, a screenwriting course and we have a private Facebook group. And you know, people take the course and they get into the group. And there are people in the, the group that I see are building mountains. They're not just taking the class. They're not just writing their scripts. They are trading scripts. They are having table reads. They are helping each other out.

I don't know if any of them started shooting stuff to me that would be ideal. They started shooting stuff on their phone and start building their own little, I don't know, their own little whatever, whatever. It looks like a film festival. I, I'm gonna call some of these people out because I see their names and I've never met any of them in person. Dave Crossman, Paul Rose, John Evans, Lori Cara Glen Amp, rose, Bruce, Gordon, mark is that Hop, hapah, hapah Mark. Mark Hopa, I believe Hapah and Phil, you're one of them too. These are people who are going above and beyond because it, it's important to them. And then, I don't know, to me, that's just impressive. It catches my notice. Whatever it looks like, you know, it could look like what they're doing, which is great. It could look like you know, they're, they're building a community.

So if one of them rises, if one of 'em starts doing well, the others are all gonna, it's by osmosis. This is their community. They're gonna help each other out. This is their graduating class. And just, this is what you wanna do, but you wanna be around successful people. Find out what successful people are doing and get in on it if you can. And success doesn't have to be the top. It could be whatever they're at, whatever level is whatever your, your cohort is. And, and I wanna say it also, it probably feels beneath you to build a mountain. But when I interview people, even like on a podcast or whatever, and I get their stories, their origin stories, all of them were building mountains. None of them were just like, Hey, I want a contest. None of them were like, Hey, I submitted a script.

Like everyone was like, oh, I had to do this. I had to do that. It was like you know, and I'm like, you, you did all that. Yep, I did. Like, I remember, I, I did one where I talked to Chandra Thomas, who's a writer on Tacoma, and she was like, staging, you know, plays where no one would come to see , and she's handing out flyers to get people to come. You know, you did all that. Oh yeah, I did all that. I, you know, whatever it was to get better, to do more, to be seen more. But all of them do that. It's just, I know it looks like a lot of work. I know it looks like a lot of work, and it is, but that's why you should do it, , because no one else is doing it. You're gonna stand out. I think, I don't know if it's generational. I don't know if people think if it's an entitlement thing, they think they should just be able to hand their script in, or if it's just they don't know any better, but do it. Like, and, and you know, Phil, I'm building a mountain too. I'm exhausted. I feel like I shouldn't have to build a mountain after doing my career for so long. Well, sorry, we all have to do it. . Yeah. It's like,

Phil Hudson:

And two years in. And, and look where you're at now in terms of you were just on Andrew Yang's podcast. Yeah. You've been interviewed for a ton of stuff about the rider's strike. And that comes from doing the following, the advice you give everybody else, which is every single day, build your mountain.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. And take some time. Take whatever time it is. And you may not have a ton of time, but all right, you have, you might, if you don't have a half hour, do you have 10 minutes? Everyone has got 10 minutes. So you could do that on your lunch, whatever it looks like for you. And, you know, talent, talent and connections are not enough, you know, and more important than talent. Although talent is very important, really more important is just, is just not giving up and keep doing the work. And, and just persevering. Like, because I, I know people with talent who have given up. I know people who are extremely talented in real life. Like friends who gifted, people who are like, man, they're really gifted, but they just don't have the, they're not used to failing because they're so gifted. And because of that, I don't think they're as happy as they could be in real life.

Because even though they're way more talented than I am, they just don't, they, they don't have that same, they're not used to failing. So get used to failing. There was a guy, I'm gonna, there's a couple things I just wanna talk about, but oh, oh, yeah. I skipped over something. Like, the people in the group now that we're on strike, I, I get comments from people. They, people say, well, why don't writers band together and make their own studio? Good question. Why don't you, I mean, I don't need to do that. But why don't you do that? Like, why don't whoever's trying to be a writer, why don't you do that? And by studio, you, it could be a YouTube channel, whatever it is. It could be like, why are you not making your own material? Why are you not helping someone else make their material? Why are you like, good question. You don't need the studios. You don't need anyone's permission to write and shoot your own material and put it up out, out in the world. You now, why don't I do it? Well, I, I just don't, I don't, and I'm not, I don't think I'm at the point in my career where I need to do that. But I think other people can do it. You know, why not? You know?

Phil Hudson:

Yeah. That's an, I mean, that's for me, what I'm hearing you say is that we need to spend more time being uncomfortable.

Michael Jamin:

Hell yeah. There is a guy, he sent me a note and I did a post on this. He he, I guess he was from England and he moved to the UK to to Los Angeles many years ago. His dream was to be a screenwriter. He wound up getting a job on the fox lot in Fox Sports. Good for him. Right? cuz leaving England to move here, you're outta your comfort zone. And I'm sure it's very brave. You have no friends and family. It's a different culture. Yeah. I'm sure. It's very difficult and brave. He gets this job and suddenly he just lost his courage and he stopped. He, he, in his own note, he's like, I wasn't dedicated. I wasn't focused. And so he never became a, the screenwriter. He, and he felt like he's so close, but so far he's, so he's literally feet away from the people who have the job he wants, cuz he is on the lot.

But he felt, he feels like he couldn't be further away. And yeah, he, he couldn't be. And it's because, and now that he, he's older, he's like in his mid forties, and he feels like, well, you know, maybe he missed his shot. And I, I made a case for why that wasn't necessarily so, but but you know, he just lost whatever, for whatever reason. He just lost the, his, his courage. And, and now he's gotta deal with that. He's gotta deal with regret. And, and I was talking about, well, in life, everything you pay for, and I know I've mentioned this before, so I'm gonna, you know, zip past it a little bit. But everything you want in life has a, comes with the price, everything. And it's either, if you, if you chase your dreams, you're gonna pay in sacrifice. And if you don't, you're gonna pay in regret. And you get to decide which one do you want to pay. But most people, I think, think that regret is a steeper price to pay. But so I don't understand what the hesitation is in not building your mountain. It's gonna take years and years, but so what else are you gonna do? Time's passing Anyway, what else are you gonna do? Yeah. You know,

Phil Hudson:

There were, I wish I had the name of the, the resource on this, but about a year ago I was listening to an audio book or a podcast, and they were talking about how they started spending a bunch of time in old folks homes. And one of the uhhuh, like universally the thing that they focused on and thought about at the end of life is all of the things they regret not doing. Asking the girl out, pursuing their craft, you know, spending more time with your family, all of those things. And regret is the theme at the end of your life. Yeah.

Michael Jamin:

Right? It's regret. And, and if you go for something, let's say you spent, I don't know, 10 years trying to break into Hollywood, and you don't break in, you, are you gonna have regrets? No. I mean, what you, where you feel like that time is wasted? I don't think so. I think you'd be like, oh, it just wasn't in the cards. It didn't work out for me, but I don't, I went for it. I sure went for it. And, you know, there's so much honor in that. But where's the, you know, but you don't regret that. You don't, you're not gonna regret not making it in. You're, you're gonna be like, oh, it just didn't happen for me. But that's not, you can't put that on the regret list because you tried, you know? Yep.

Phil Hudson:

Yeah. I've said on the podcast before that my worst fear in life is sitting a movie theater and wishing, man, I wish I did that. And it's because I have those moments when I go to a movie and I, something really impacts me. I have that, that gut feeling. This is all I want to do with my life. Right. So working in LA as an assistant, you know, sacrificing time with my family or with my hobbies, or not playing Xbox with my friends or whatever it is, you know, cost of living, all that stuff that is nothing compared to the price of the regret. I know I'll have at 55 sitting in a theater thinking I wish I would've kept trying. And yeah, I'm pretty close. I I've had some really great success this year. Thanks again to you and your mentorship and the lessons you've taught me about how to do my craft appropriately. But beyond that, it's you know, I'm that close. But if I had to spend 10 more years trying, I'd spend 10 more years trying. And

Michael Jamin:

You just had a, a setback. You just had a kick in the teeth and mm-hmm. and it's hard to get back up after a kick in the teeth. And that's, that's character.

Phil Hudson:

Well, but I, but I knew that, you know, I had this experience with my daughter. We go to the playground here by my house, we just walk a couple blocks over. Mm-Hmm. And there's the big, the little kid's playground and the big kid's playground. And my daughter Grace is just this beautiful two and a half year old girl. She's like, starts playing with the bigger kids and she goes to the big playground, and then there's this like, ladder, but it's not actually a ladder. It's like a plastic net. And she trips and falls and smacks her face on the plastic mm-hmm. . and she starts crying. And as a parent, you understand this, there's a different cry when your kid's actually hurt. And when they, they're scared and it's like, oh, that's actual hurt. And so I went over and she was pretty upset, and I knew the best thing I could do as a father at that moment was to get her to climb that thing right then, or she would be afraid of it.

So I said, are you okay? And she's like, yeah. And I was like, okay, let's climb this together and I'll be right here and I'll make sure you don't fall again. And I helped her climb up this net to get to the top and I said, you did it. And we celebrated. And I said, do you feel strong? And she's like, yeah. And I was like, great, go down the slide. And she forgot about all her pain and she went down the slide and she wanted to do it again immediately after. Yeah. And for me, it's like you said, you have a friend who is not used to failure, right? Yeah. I hate failing. And so falling down and getting yourself back up is just one of those life skills I learned too late in life and I wish I would've had earlier. So yeah. I'm happy to talk about my experience if you want me to

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. Go into it. Go into it a little bit. Yeah. Let people tell a bit what happened.

Phil Hudson:

Yeah. So, so for anybody who's listened to the podcast for a while, I wrote this script, and Michael, you were kind enough to gimme notes and we recorded that on the podcast, and I took several months and I did a ton of research. You gave it a b plus, and I really did my best to make it an A plus. Mm-Hmm. , I probably landed at an a, not an a plus, but it's good. And people read it and they're like, man, that's really good. I now see ways I can improve it even a year later. Like I, I know I can make it better, but it's, you know, so anyway, I sent it around to some people and there were some people in this group who were like, read it. And they're like, this is awesome. And then they hired me to write another feature for a couple thousand dollars.

It's not a ton of money, but it's like, hey, it's, it's work and I'm getting paid. Right? Then that turned into, they're, one of 'em is producing a film in, in Georgia, and the guy had to, the producer of this film had to fire his screenwriter for trying to take money out of his account or so he said, and I'll get to that, I guess . So anyway, that was probably not what happened as we learned, but Okay. Yeah, probably not what happened. There's some foreshadowing for you. That's a writer term, right, Michael? Yeah. Yeah. So anyway my friend who's, who's was asked to produce this film out there because of these hiccups, he pitched writing the screenplay for this project that supposedly has 12 million of budget with another potentially 22 or 20 million being committed from other people. And it's about this famous American moment in American history that is apparently doesn't have a film about it, public domain, really cool project.

And so he and I went together, we went in, we had a zoom call with the guy. We pitched our idea, walked him through our, our process. He said, let me think about it for the day. We got off the call and he emailed within an hour. I was like, I think we're aligned, let's move forward. And that was about three weeks before the writer strike. So we negotiated a bunch of things. I negotiated that he, we would be wga he would join the guild after we turned in the script and become a signatory. It's retroactive, it's all kosher, don't worry. And then that we would get paid minimums, which for me is like, man, it's a hundred and like $60,000 split two ways, but still big fat money to write a feature film. And I called the wga, made sure everything was good, the rider strike happened, nothing happened.

And then he was like, all right, let's get it going. And so we called our attorney, he connected with his attorney, we did the contracts, the back and forth. We got the contract. He was gonna fly me out to Baltimore, Maryland mm-hmm. to do research. We submitted the script. We, he, we signed the contract. And then the next day, the day I was supposed to fly to Baltimore, he fell and broke three fingers in his car door. Mm-Hmm. . And I was like, crap. Well, and the whole time there's like this weird spidey sense going off, like, this is too good to be true. There's too much here, but you're, I'm ignoring it because I want this so badly. Mm-Hmm. . And then he signed the contract after he broke his hands and, and sent it back through DocuSign to get it to our attorneys.

Awesome. My attorney was smart enough to put a line in there that you have to make the initial payment, which is a required step to execute the contract mm-hmm. . And he said, no problem. I'll wire the money. The trip fell apart, no flights were given all this stuff. And then the wire was supposed to come. He said he sent it on a Tuesday, Thursday comes around, there's no money. Friday, there's no money. Calls are being made, don't know what's happening. I'm calling my bank. He's not giving us a confirmation number, which pretty easy. Your bank can just track a confirmation number on a wire cuz it's in a database. And so then I start thinking about it some more, and then I start realizing that this guy might not have any money and this guy might be selling dreams. Mm-Hmm. . And I start feeling a little abused because of the whole situation. And you gave me some good advice, which I'll go into. But ultimately here I am two and a half weeks later with a signed contract that will get me in the WGA and pay me $75,000 to write a feature film and be a producer on the film, which I included in the contract and they agreed to mm-hmm. and I have no money in my account and I have a basically void contract.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. Because the guy was just a, he was a psycho, he was just a, he wasn't even a scammer, he was just a,

Phil Hudson:

He's got access to my bank account. I sent him wire information, he can technically pull money outta my account with an ACH withdrawal or write checks off that account. None of that has happened. And you would think someone who was scamming you, that's how you do it. Find people who look like they're successful in Hollywood because I have an IMDB credit that makes you look successful and take money out of their account, selling them the dream. That hasn't even happened. And so you pointed out, you know, these are delusions of grandeur. Yeah. And you said, don't feel like that guy robbed you of a dream or stole your dream and scamming you that guy. That's that guy's dream too. Yeah. And my wife pointed out in his mind, he probably legitly thinks he's gonna make this happen because there's a level of mental instability here.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. This is his dream is to be a producer or director or whatever. And it doesn't really matter. I'll, I'll, I'm gonna make it happen. But I mean, he is obviously nuts, so that's heartbreaking to find out that you were this close. And the guy is delusional. So,

Phil Hudson:

Well, we'll, going back to what I said about my daughter, like thinking, I literally just thought of that moment and you know, I shared this with you too. The moment I signed that contract, I recorded a video for my kids talking about how you can chase your dreams and it will go true. Mm-Hmm. . Yeah. And that is a fake false moment. Yeah. I felt all of the emotions, all real, not true. But I thought of my daughter and I thought of her falling down on that playground and I said, all right, get back to work. And so I just started writing something else

Michael Jamin:

And I'd write about that immediate, it's so I'd I'd write about that guy , I'd write about that. And how, you know, you, I don't know, I I, cause I, you know, I write personal essay. If it happened to me, I'd be like, oh, that's, there's a story in there for sure.

Phil Hudson:

Sure.

Michael Jamin:

But yeah, there's so much, there's just, I, I just think people, getting back to what we were talking about, I just think people are you know, they just want it to happen. They just want to turn their script in, get hired. But in truth, if you look at successful people, they, you know, they all, they all suffered for a long time. And they built a mountain. And I, you know, I don't know what you're obviously what your plan is or what you're gonna do. It'd be easier to have your script obviously made by someone else and bought. But obviously there's things you could still do on your own. Sure. And you know.

Phil Hudson:

Sure. And you know, we, I think that's the conversation with the attorney is can I still write that script? Even though it's public domain, they didn't bring anything unique to it. Probably Okay to do that. But there is a, a paper trail now and, and I don't know, but on the other hand, I think this is something you talk about all the time mm-hmm. and in h in hindsight,

Michael Jamin:

The money never changed hands. Was it his idea

Phil Hudson:

Contract was never executed. He brought the idea to us. Oh. But it's a public domain historical thing. Okay. And he, nothing he brought us is not in the public domain.

Michael Jamin:

Right. Okay.

Phil Hudson:

Okay. So, and the contract's void, like, because he didn't exchange money. So. Right. On what I, what I was gonna say is, you said this for a long time. I think we said it on the webinar, we just did like producers, like we're talking about pitch fests and and stuff. People who want to hire professional screenwriters go to the wga, cuz that's where the professional writers are. Yeah. And if someone with a 12 million budget offers you to write that script, and I'm not saying it's not gonna happen or has never happened, but I should have, that should have been red flag number one. But I was blinded by that dream, so I was trying to find a shortcut. I was trying to get ahead Yeah. By working the system. And at the end of the day, I didn't pay a price for it, but I learned a valuable lesson, which is, you know, don't get your hopes up until money's in your account. Make sure you cross all the T's and do your research.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. But we've talked, we've spoken about, we have, have, I'm sure we've spoken about this guy who did this movie called Thunder Road

Phil Hudson:

Yeah. Didn't think we talked about it

Michael Jamin:

Once. How, how he shot this. And it turns out it was a it was a feature that he submitted, but it was, I, I only saw the scene and the scene that he shot was that I, I was totally impressed by. It's on Vimeo or YouTube, I don't know, it was just took place in a church. It was one scene, a handful of extras. And he was pretty much the only talking part. And that could have been shot to me. It stood on itself. It was a scene that could have been a short, it could have lived on its own. I didn't know it was part of a larger movie. And to me it was brilliant. It was brilliantly acted and written and it was emotional and it was funny. And it's something, it, it's, it got my attention and I'm sure I got the attention of a lot bigger people than myself. And it's something he could've done. I mean, he, if he wanted to, he get a shot at in a day using an, a couple of iPhones, you know? Right. It didn't have to. And it was, you know, all you need is good sound and, but do something like that. And I mean, all can, all of us can do something like that. Something small, you know.

Phil Hudson:

For sure. For sure.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah.

Phil Hudson:

Yeah. I, I think, you know, this is I think a lesson that a lot of us need, which is you need to be comfortable being, you need to put yourself in situations where it is difficult by choice, right? Mm-Hmm. , you need to almost experience death, if you will, but in a controlled environment. And that's what I, I mean, I've talked about it before. One of the things that impressed me early on is like, you have a hill that you run up regularly.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. Push up

Phil Hudson:

Today. You push to run up a hill up

Michael Jamin:

Today. Yeah.

Phil Hudson:

You run up a hill. Why? Because it's hard.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. You

Phil Hudson:

Don't run on flat ground, you run up a hill.

Michael Jamin:

It's a little harder. There is a wonderful video by that. David Bowie talked, you know, spoke about where he talks about if you wanna do something great, you have to swim in waters just deep enough so you can't touch the bottom. And so, you know, talking about outta your comfort zone and, and yeah. You have to be willing to, to risk. And that's where you do, that's where art is made. And that's where like, you know, that's where all the, that's where the advances come. That's where the growth comes, is when you're in over your head. So God. And so what if you make something terrible? Yeah. And what, so what, so what? Yeah. You know yeah. What you get trolled by people who don't do anything with their lives and what's their, what's their point? You

Phil Hudson:

Know? I know, I know we've read the quote, the poem before, but it's the I believe it's Teddy Roosevelt wrote the poem, man in the arena, right? Yeah. Which is right. Yeah. Yeah. Every, everyone goes after and has words to say about the man in the arena. Yeah. But at the end of the day, you can't listen to him cuz they're not in the arena getting punched in the face. Right? Yeah. And that's, that's what this is. It's getting punched in the face willingly knowing that your body can heal itself. Your ego can heal itself, your mind can heal itself, and you get stronger and more resilient. And you do that by degrees. You don't have to go drowned. You can do a cold plunge in your shower, just turn the water cold. That sucks. That's not fun.

Michael Jamin:

Brene Brene Brown talks about this on, on, you know, on her list special or Netflix special. Yeah. That's what vulnerability is getting outta your comfort zone. And that's when great things happen. And, and it's not just a cliche, it's not just talk. It's like, no guys, this is where good things happen is when you do things that are hard outta your comfort zone. And if you, I'm always amazed, I'm always inspired by people, whatever. You can see 'em on social media and there could be doing something, I don't know, riding a skateboard on a, on a rail. They could be doing something, you know, some, like, none of that is easy. And all of that requires a commitment to like doing this over and over again and taking your knocks. And, and I, you know, sure. I may look at it and think, well yeah, but you're, you know, you're just skateboarding. But no, they're not just skateboarding. They're like, they're, they're getting their head kicked in and they make it look easy, but it's only because they've been doing it so damn long.

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Phil Hudson:

Yeah. I think society looks at skateboarders and we're using skateboarders as a skateboarders, as a metaphor for people who do things that are strange or not common. And, and art and craft, I think fall into that category. Yeah. Shooting your videos, putting your YouTube videos up, doing a podcast, doing your TikTok videos, whatever. But, but there was a, a psychologist who talked about skateboarders and they're like, don't worry about the skateboarders. They're gonna be fine. They know of adversity. Yeah. It's the other people. It's the people sitting at home not taking risk. That's it. And right about that time I saw this video, it went pretty viral and it was a kid and he's just out practicing this move on, practicing this move on a skateboard over and over and over and over. And the feeling I got was just like, I don't know that I've practiced anything with this much intensity and courage. And then when he lands it, like I wanted to cry, I wanna cry now thinking about how happy I was for that kid landing this thing that he spent all day Yeah. Trying to do. Yeah. And that's just triumph of the human spirit. That's literally what moves us as humanity. Yeah. It's overcoming, overcoming obstacles. It's story, right? It's you, it's your definition of that.

Michael Jamin:

I it's funny you mention mentioning cuz you've helped me. You know, I ran the marketing, my, my wife had a girl's clothing company called Twirly Girl for many years. And I helped her with the marketing of that. And in the beginning you were a big help. That's how we met. Because I didn't know anything about digital marketing. You were, you were big help on that. And the company was flailing for a long time, like, you know, barely making any money. And I, I signed up for something called 10,000 Small Businesses, which is a, a program sponsored by gold. Goldman Sachs almost created the economy, you know, way back in, I don't know, 2008 or something. Maybe it was longer. I don't know. And so as their penance, they decided to create this small business program where they help small business owners kind of become more profitable.

And it's free. All you gotta do is apply to it and open up your book. So I applied, I found out about it and it's like a first class program. It's like, I don't know how many, 10 weeks, one day a week for 10 weeks. And I managed to make time to get into it and I got into it and it was a blessing. And it was, honestly, it was first class and they described it as not a you know, MBA teaches you about all business. This was a mini mba, which teaches you about your business. So I had to come in and I had to do a business plan at the end of the 10 weeks. You gotta do a business plan on your business. How you gonna make your business profitable? I'm like, I don't, how do I know I couldn't, I haven't done that in forever.

Why would I know now? So, but I did all the steps that they tell you to do. And at the end I came up with this business plan and this is just when Facebook advertising was kind of taking off. And so I was like, okay, maybe if I did this on, if I made up a whole business plan for Facebook advertising and I had projections and I had a budget and I told my wife, I go, I'm gonna spend, I don't remember how much money, maybe it was like a thousand dollars. I go, I said, I know we're not making any money, but I wanna spend a thousand dollars doing this. And I had this whole strategy mapped out. I go, if it works, we'll make money. And if it doesn't, we're out a thousand bucks. Are you okay with that? And she was like, yeah, you, we have to.

Right. So I did this business plan and I had projections and, and I, you know, I, I mapped it. Yeah. My projections, if I, if I spent this much money, this is how much I think we'll make. And then we spent the money and at the end of the month I added up the projections versus reality and I was off by something like 10 cents or something. Wow. But, and but that, that was probably, that was probably like a giant coincidence. Like I could have been off by 300 or $200 and it would've been fine cuz there's a margin of error would've been fine. So the fact that I was off by like 10 cents is like, it was a lot of luck.

Phil Hudson:

Mind, mind blowing though.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. But it was mind blowing. And I was so, like, I remember I went for a run that day and I was almost in tears. Cause I was like, oh my God, we finally figured it out. Like it took so long for us to finally make money with this business. We were just bleeding money for all this time. And we tried everything. And the fact that this finally worked after just not giving up, I wanted to cry. I was like, oh my God, thank God I didn't stop. You know?

Phil Hudson:

So Yeah. That's, it's resilience. It's resilience. I went to a Tony Robbins event and say what you will about Tony Robbins? But I went to an event and he said, the thing really just impacted me. He's like, I went to the Olympics in Atlanta and they bring out an Olympian, a gold medalist from like the 1940s who was still alive. And everyone in the stadium stood and cheered for this person. And it's like, why? Because that person did something unimaginable. They, they were world class at what they did 60 years ago, 50 years ago. And we still respected. And it's, it's about the effort and the time and the sacrifice that went into that. And it applies to everything else. I mean, how much time have you put into your craft of writing? How much time are you writing when you're not being paid to write Michael? All the time.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. All the time. But, and when people said like, well I have a script, or you know, or sometimes they, it's so, it's very frustrating when they, they, you know, they talk about the gatekeepers and they talk about why everything's so unfair. And it's like, well what? And I ask like, well what have you done though? You know, where do you live? Oh, I'm in Cleveland. You know, you're gonna complain about gatekeepers cuz there are people out here trying to break into Hollywood. They got a leg up on you. They're sacrificing more and you're gonna complain about gatekeepers. What do you know from Cleveland? What do you know? What do you know about Hollywood? You are in Cleveland, you know, but they have these preconceived notions about what it is they've already given up and you haven't even tried. And you think they, they think they've tried, but they haven't. They really haven't. They haven't done everything. You know, and the people who are here who've given up more, guess what they deserve to be at the front of the line

Phil Hudson:

Season three of Tacoma f I was it was like we were shooting late and the producer from a 24 Savvy, she came in and she was talking to us and she was talking to me and the other pa and we were just talking about like our experience in Hollywood so far. And she was like, she heard my story. And she's like, I asked her how, what her story was. And she's like, well I pulled a Phil and it was very kind of her to say that, but she's like, I did the same thing you did where I started working on a show as an assistant mm-hmm. . And then they kept me on for the next thing and the next thing and the next thing. And I just worked on that show year round for several years. And then I became the line producer's assistant and then I learned how to do a producing. And she just worked her way up the exact same way that I was trying to do. She's just younger than me, but she's on the, did the exact same path of sacrifice. Right. That's probably dozens if not hundreds of people in LA who have done the exact same thing of busting their butt doing things that they feel are beneath them to make it work. It's not unique. It's about the commitment. Right. And how much can you tolerate?

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. Right. And, and it doesn't even take a lot of talent. It doesn't take a lot of talent to, to do the work. It doesn't, it just takes you a commitment to doing the work. Doesn't mean you're gonna be successful. No. Cuz talent does play an element, but the, the, the hard the the building the mountain just takes no talent at all. It, you know, that, that's just work. Anyone can do that.

Phil Hudson:

We all know what a mountain looks like. Right? Yeah.

Michael Jamin:

And, and, you know, and to to, to build on that metaphor, you know, what is mountain climbing? Like mountain climbing's, just walking guys, when people go to the climb to the top of Everest, guess what? They're just walking, they're walking in the cold, they're walking with a oxygen mask at times they're walking hooked up to ropes with little air to breathe. I get it. But they're still just walking, you know? Right. So, and what they do is impo, you know, incredible. But again, it's walking. So if you wanna climb your mountain, can you, do you know how to walk? I mean, that's it. It's just one step at a time.

Phil Hudson:

Yeah. I might have talked about this on the podcast before, so forgive me if it's redundant, but someone asked me recently like, well how did you get to la? Like how did you transition out of doing SEO and digital marketing to do this? And it was like 2009 or 10 mm-hmm. . And I started volunteering at the, at the Sundays Film Festival. And I was living with some roommates at the time and I just started this job in sales and I was not very good at it. And all I wanted to do was write. That's all I wanted to do. And for two years had been writing really bad features and they were just horrible. And I was like, well there's, I know where I want to go is be in Hollywood and be a professional writer. And so the shortest path, the direct line is just write, write, write.

But at the same time, I had just gotten out of the recession and I was just making my life better. And I was like, okay, how, how am I gonna make this work? I need to get to la. How am I gonna get to la? I need to have money. What kind of money? Because if I wanna write in LA I'm gonna have to have a lot more money than I have now and I'm gonna probably gonna need some sort of passive income. And I don't know that passive income's ever actually passive, but I'm gonna need something that generates money so I can spend time on my craft. Well, I know how to do e-commerce and I'm at a company that teaches e-commerce and I can get really good at that and then that will generate money. So I'm just shipping things and handling customer support instead of waiting tables.

So, so that sounds good, but what do I need to do to be able to afford that? So while I need to learn how to sell things, I need to make money now to be able to afford that. So I went home that day, I said, in five years, here's where I'll be, I'll be in la I'll have a pr, a profitable e-commerce business, which is what our company did. And I will be able to write and work for three hours a day and then write. And it may not be a lot, but I'll survive. And I literally went home and I went into my room and I took my Xbox and I unplugged it and I put it in my roommate's room and I set it down. And then where my t where it was on the tv, I took the TV and I put it in the closet and I sat down at my desk and I would go to work and I would suck at selling.

And then I would sit there and I just read sales books. And within a week I started making money because I put time and intention and focus into my mountain, which was sales. And within six months I was the number one sales rep at the entire company with the worst leads. But I was making so much money that I was like, okay, now I can take a step back. And it's not tons of money guys. Like this is like a ton of money for me at the time. Cause I grew up super poor. It was like $74,000 a year at 24 years old. Stupid money for a 24 year old kid in 2010 or 11. And so beyond that, the next thing that I did was, okay, now I need to take the same amount of time I was putting into sales and put it in e-commerce.

And I would just sit there and I'd put in the DVD training series, which is like the equivalent of your screenwriting course. And I would just watch the guru teach people how to do the job. This is what we sold. And I would just do what he said. And within three months, my website was making more money than I was making in commissions at the job. And then I went in and I talked to him cuz he had an open door policy at the company. And I said, Hey Parker, do you mind just looking at my site? He looked through a bunch of things, he's like, you did this? And I was like, yeah. He's like, this is a success story. Congrats. And I was like, awesome. And I just kept doing that and doing that. And then when that started doing well, then I started focus on riding and I, because that was my next mountain.

And then I took a huge detour through Santa Fe to go to film school because of my Sundance stuff. But I was also volunteering for 40 hours at Sundance while working. And that was my way of staying in the business and doing it. And I would write for a couple hours on the weekend. So that's, that's not unique to me. I'm not saying that to toot my own horn. What I'm saying is, for anybody listening who's struggling is you need to define where you want to go and backfill the steps to get there. And I think what you're saying is those are the mountains and the mountain screenwriting. How am I gonna get to la? That's a mountain. Once you're in LA how do you get a job in the industry? That's a mountain, right? It's just step by step by step,

Michael Jamin:

Right? Yeah. You gotta put the work. And this, this shouldn't be, I don't know why it's surprising to people sometimes when I say stuff like, make these comments on in these posts on social media, like, man, this guy gets it. He's under like, he's dropping bombs. Like, what? I don't know. This is just the truth. I don't know. It's like, isn't it just obvious? You know? Yeah. there's just no shortcuts. I wish, you know, wouldn't be great. Like you, you don't get to take a helicopter to the top of the mountain and and plant your flag. It just doesn't work that way.

Phil Hudson:

You gotta climb. And if you do, you will very shortly fall down the mountain because you don't know how to have sure. Footing on the mountain

Michael Jamin:

And you won't appreciate what you've done there. You won't be able to take a celebrate. Cuz it'll be like, yeah, I, I took a helicopter. You know, and so that's the problem with what I see sometimes with people. Like, well, how do I sell my screenplay? How do I sell my I my idea? Your idea? No, no, no, no. You don't sell your idea. You know? Yep. You wanna write it fine. Learn how to write. Everyone wants to skip that step. That part's too hard. They, they just wanna sell it.

Phil Hudson:

Right? From an action perspective, other than, you know, the classic self-development or personal development five year goal and backtrack, you know, five year goal, one year goal, six month goal, quarterly goal, weekly goal, monthly goal, weekly goal, daily goal. Like doing that to keep your focus and stay on a trajectory beyond that. As a writer, what do you see are the actionable steps people can do to build the mountain? And, and I I think this might be more related to craft. You've done a lot of content on go do it yourself, don't let people hold you back, make your own content. But from a, from a craft perspective, what do you think people can do? Cuz that seems to be the place where most people struggle, is knowing how to tell a good story and do it properly.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. I mean, the people wanna skip that part. You know, obviously we have a course and you're welcome, anyone's welcome. We only open enrollment a few days a month, but if they wanna go check that out, it's at michael chapman.com/course where I teach you everything that I've known, everything I learned at the feet of better writers than my myself working on pro, you know, professional television shows. And so I, that's what I teach you. Like how we break a story. It could every day because we can't wait for inspiration. You, you get paid, you have to get paid, you have to make a TV show this week. So I teach you that. And I think it's actually like, what I recommend is for people to just go through the course and watch a half hour. It's a long course. I say watch a half hour a day and which is not gonna kill you.

It's a half hour. And then at the end of the month, you'll have finished the course and then you'll have a habit. Like, okay, from nine 30 to 10, I always write, I always work on my writing. So, so do that. And you know, and, and stop worrying about, I also say like, people always say write one screenplay. They they polish it, they work on it, work on it. No, no. Put it, finish it, put it aside and working on another one because it's the, it's the beginning to end process that will make you better. And then when you look back on your fifth screenplay, you compare it to your first, I don't care how much work you did on the first number, five's gonna be much better. It just is. And, and that just from doing the work, you know. But any, you know, anyone can do it. Anyone can just sit down and work.

Phil Hudson:

Yep. You put out tons of free content on your social media as well. And there are probably a lot of people here who found you. So you know that. But for those who stumble upon this podcast or a friend shared it with you, Michael Jamon, writer on social media, tons of great stuff. Podcasts,

Michael Jamin:

Instagram,

Phil Hudson:

Tiktok. Yeah. This podcast has a ton of great info on it as well. Yeah, it's just, I mean, look, the answer is do the work, right?

Michael Jamin:

I also, you know, and I, I have a ton of like posts, ton of free stuff and people are like, whoa, you have too much. I have too much. Like, so sit down and watch a post. Now you're complaining that you have too much free help . So watch a post a day, watch five a day. Is that gonna hurt you? Each one is three minutes long, so it's 15 minutes. Like I don't, I don't know what to tell you. Like, it's free, it's there

Phil Hudson:

. Yeah. That, that's upsetting to me right here behind my diploma. I have this book and it was the first book I wrote on screenwriting. Cause like, I didn't even know, I didn't know until I was 21 that there was a, a format for writing TV. And I knew I wanted to do it since I was 12 because the internet was new when I was a kid. Like you don't know. And so I went into a Barnes and Noble and I went through the movie theater section. I found two books on screenwriting. Mm-Hmm. . I bought the one that made the most sense to me. The Complete Idiot's Guide to Screenwriting by Skip Press. And I went home and I just devoured that book. All I wanted to do was read that book and I got to the end and it was resources and there's a link to a couple websites in there.

And one of 'em was word Player by Ted Elliot and TecIO, who were like legends in the screenwriting world. And I went to their site word player.com and I found, and it's not a pretty site, it is like forums from the nineties mm-hmm. . but there were articles that they would do on a o l in the late nineties that they had republished there. And I just started going through them one by one and reading them and rereading them. And I was so committed to this. I set it as my home tab on my computer. Wow. So when I logged in, I would see their site load and the first day I did that I got a notice saying I was banned from the site and couldn't access it. And I had to contact the webmaster and the server had flagged me for spamming the site because I went to it too much.

Michael Jamin:

They thought you were spamming it just cuz you were reading it.

Phil Hudson:

That was cuz I was just kept going. Cuz every time I opened a browser it would load that site. And so it was, and it felt like I was like spamming. It's out of time on the web. But you know, it kept flagging me because my IP address was being flagged as like a brute force attack or a DDoS attack or whatever you wanna call it. And so I had to contact the webmaster and be like, Hey, I'm just really committed to my craft and I just really wanna be able to look at the site every time I feel like I might get distracted by something on the web, I can remember my purpose. And she's like, okay. So she whitelisted my IP and I could keep going back to the site, but Wow. There were like 40 articles on that. Michael, you've put up a post every day for almost two years. That's almost, that's over 700 pieces of content. Yeah. Not including, we're at like almost 90 episodes of the podcast that are between 30 minutes and an hour each. Mm-Hmm. not to mention the articles in your website. Yeah. Not to mention the free course, not to mention the free PDFs that we give away in your webinars. Yeah. Not to mention the monthly webinars. So it's actually kind of upsetting to me that people say you have too much cuz I was dying in the desert hoping for water, and I found an oasis. Right.

Michael Jamin:

Someone, you know, I don't think they were talking my be either left to comment my, my posts, you know, saying you, you Hollywood gatekeepers. I'm like, gatekeepers, dude, I'm on here every fricking day trying to tell you what to do. Who's the gatekeeper? Who's the gatekeeper?

Phil Hudson:

You know? Yeah. And that all that is is a, it's a, it's a belief that you have in your mind and it's a, a very subtle way, your unconscious mind is protecting you from failure. Yeah.

Right. You talked about friends who have tremendous talent or who come out here and then wash out. Yeah. And I have friends, I have people I moved out here with. I have people who from my film school moved out here and they had roommates and out of all those people, I think I've said it on here, there's like three of those people in LA of all, all of Los Angeles. Mm-Hmm. from the hundreds of people I went to college with. And one's an agent's assistant or maybe an agent. Now one is an actual WGA writer, one is the head of creative development for an actual production company. Mm-Hmm. , there's me who's just a guy who handles plumbing on a TV show effectively. Right? Mm-hmm. . But, but there are very few, and I do have friends who are literally afraid to push themselves and do work because they don't wanna disappoint their dad. His dad gave them crap for wanting to pursue art and said, you will fail and when you fail, you'll have a home here and we can find work for you, God. And so they don't want to fail, so they won't take risks because as long as they're tangentially working in, in around the industry, God, they haven't failed. So they, they no won't push themselves.

Michael Jamin:

It's so sad. Like my daughter wanted to be an artist when she was in grade school and then she applied to the School of the Arts, which is a, a free, it's a free school you know, public school for the high school, but you have to apply for it. And I was like, I'm not helping you do this. Like, if you want it, you're gonna have to do it yourself. And she did do it herself. And she got in and she went, now she's at Cooper Union, which is a great art school in New York City because like, being an artist is hard, but she's so committed. And the other day she sent me, she said, Hey I'm gonna submit my film to a, like a film festival, like an art film school, art festival. Like, not not narrative, but Mark, you know, kind of avantgarde. And I go, gimme the bill. You know, it wasn't even alive. It was like 78 bucks. But I was like, I'm paying for it because yeah. Like that's it. I want, I want her to be able to, you know, so cool. I don't, I like, that's like the least I can do because I didn't support her then because I didn't know how serious she was, you know, because Yeah. You know, and she's

Phil Hudson:

Proven herself.

Michael Jamin:

She's proven herself now. So, no, I'm doing, I'm paying. I, I go, I wanna pay for this cuz you've proven it yourself. So

Phil Hudson:

It's, it's easy to say you want to be a professional NBA player. It's hard to sit there after everyone goes home and keep shooting for he throws and then shoot three pointers and then run sprints and do ladders. It's like, yeah. That's the work no one wants to do. It's not sexy, it's hard, it's sweaty. And that's, that's so hard.

Michael Jamin:

Right? And when that person does the work though, then you wanna help them. You don't wanna help them before, right? Yeah. But when you see someone busting their ass, you go, okay, please let me help you because you are busting your ass. Yeah. And so bust your ass first and then maybe someone will help you. But don't ask for help before you haven't done anything, you know, because no one wants Yeah. Because it just feels like, ah, you know, how serious are you? I don't, why am I gonna get behind you if you're not serious?

Phil Hudson:

Yeah. And, and I might err too far on the other side of this personally, but, you know, I had a, a call with Paul Soder of Broken Lizard who, and I had the opportunity to help them outside of the film quasi they did on Hulu, but also like, ran their social media and went on tour with them, which was super cool experience. And I had a moment where I was like at dinner with them, and I believe Kevin Heffernan brought up something. It's me, Kevin, Jay, and Paul. And we're sitting at dinner and he's like, he brought up something and it was talking about how, like, it was talking about hard work and effort and you had to put in and, and I just had this moment where it clicked for me. And I said, you know, Kevin, I appreciate what you're saying. And he's basically into the fact that if we complain about the fact that we think we've earned opportunities and people, other people get them, that we need to understand that many of the things we're frustrated about serve a very valuable purpose.

You know? And he said, he said that, and I said, you know, I'm having the realization now that the fact that I'm sitting at the table with you guys is because anytime I've not gotten something from you guys that other people have told me I deserved, I've never said a word to you about it. Mm-Hmm. . And he said, exactly right. I don't, I'm not looking for anything from those guys. Right. I'm looking to earn it when it's time. And it stings and it's frustrating when it doesn't come and other people told you should, but those are expectations people put in my head. They're not expectations I have in my heart. And I let that get in the way, and then I have to work through that pain and, and frustration to get back to my baseline of it doesn't matter. And look, Paul Suter was calling and asking for help with what I do in the digital marketing world. And I was like, I'm happy to help you. And he was like, no, no, I want to pay you. And I was like, look man, I think it's important that I help you as a way of giving back for what you've already done. He's like, well, you know, and it's like I had to, I had to help him understand. No, I feel gratitude. I feel a debt of gratitude, not the other way around.

Michael Jamin:

I mean, think about that though. Felt whatever, 10 years ago. How long, when did you move to la?

Phil Hudson:

I moved to LA in 2016, so it's been almost seven years.

Michael Jamin:

Oh, okay. So if I had told you seven years

Phil Hudson:

Ago, but, but I would've, you told me to move here in, to be fair, in 2013 when we met, right. And I got the scholarship opportunity like a month later, you're not gonna turn. And so I took like a three, I took a three year delay to get here,

Michael Jamin:

But, all right, but if I told you seven years ago that you'd be sitting at the table with these filmmakers in their, in their presence, who they're very successful and you know, just absorbing and learning from them. Like you'd be, are you outta your mind? I mean, those guys are,

Phil Hudson:

I would've, I would've thought you were crazy in no way. Yeah. I, I had that moment too. We were on tour and they were taking a photo and I was like, oh, let me get outta the way. And they're like, no, no, Phil stay and mm-hmm. I never asked them for photos, I never asked them for autographs. I never do any of those things. And now I, it's like weird too. Cause I had to check myself to say, and anyway, I have this photo of them at dinner which is really cool cuz it's not something I would ever ask for. But at the same time I recognize that I, I see them as friends now. Yeah. Which is even crazier, right? Yeah. And I had to check myself on tour when I'm standing at Wrigley Field on the ma like on the field. You're on the field while field Jay's throwing out the first pitch. Oh

Michael Jamin:

Wow. Isn't that great? And I

Phil Hudson:

Have the, I have the ball over here cuz Jay gave me the ball after.

Michael Jamin:

Oh, that's nice. So like, that's nice.

Phil Hudson:

I had to check myself and say, this is a dream I would've killed for in 2000 2, 3, 4 when I was in high school. I would've killed for this.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. And think how close you Yeah. You're, I mean, so you're taking these steps. You're, like I said, you're, you're one of the guys building the mountain. So

Phil Hudson:

I appreciate it. It'll take us

Michael Jamin:

Long takes, I takes,

Phil Hudson:

You know, I just wanna reiterate to everyone and, and I understand that there's a lot of cynicism on the internet because there are a lot of self-serving people who focus on how can I get ahead? And there are a lot of people who accuse me of being insincere. Michael, you know me, that's

Michael Jamin:

Cra it's cra I don't, I don't know who's, who's, I don't know what context they said that.

Phil Hudson:

It's a lot of people who don't know me. And I get it cuz there are people who are insincere and doing things to get ahead. And I run into those people. I'm not that person. And when I tell these stories or anything that's successful, I almost feel ashamed because it feels braggadocious and prideful and mm-hmm. , there is pride behind it. Cuz I am proud of the work that I have put in. I have climbed the mountains Yeah. That have gotten me to where I am. But at the same time, I'm, I'm just trying to help inspire you at home to put in the time, energy, and effort necessary to pursue your dreams and surround yourself with the right mentors and people who have been where you want to be.

Michael Jamin:

Yep.

Phil Hudson:

Serve them with every skillset you have. Anybody can go pick up drag cleaning, anybody can go walk a dog. Yeah. You don't need, you don't need to understand digital marketing and the complex nuances of Facebook algorithms to do w what I'm doing. You can do it yourself and do it freely without expectation.

Michael Jamin:

As, as a wrap up, I wanna leave people with the wise words of my seventh grade English teacher, , her name was Miss to and she was, and her name was Miss Tomb. And she used to say, time's passing, but you are not . Ooh. And I fucking, I always love that. And I was like, miss Tomb, I'm in the honors program. I dunno what your talking, I don't know what this empty thread is, but but like, yeah, don't let time pass and, you know, and, and not do it. I love that time's pass. So, you know, make sure you use your time. Use your time. May build a mountain.

Phil Hudson:

That's

Michael Jamin:

Beautiful. All right, Philly.

Phil Hudson:

Okay. Well, Michael obviously we've talked about a bunch of the resources you have. Yeah. And we always end with this is just because again, there are a lot, there's a lot of content, but you have the free lesson from your course. It's available to anybody, teaches you what story is and the definition, again, literally the first thing you ever taught me, you shot me an email, I failed miserably. Mm-Hmm. , go learn. So you don't have to fail, but that's michaeljamin.com/free. You have the course you can get, you can learn more about it and sign up to be notified when it's open @michaeljamin.com/course. You have your book that you're working on and touring. Any updates on touring?

Michael Jamin:

No updates. I'm still, we're still agonizing over the title. I'm working that out. I, it's been a process. But yeah, all this stuff is free. I got a lot of time, ton of free resources on my website. Michael jam.com. Just go visit

Phil Hudson:

And michael jamin do com. Michael jamin.com/upcoming is where they can get info about the book though. Right. And tour

Michael Jamin:

And all that stuff upcoming is for my tours. Yeah. Cool. And that's it.

Phil Hudson:

Alright. If it was a pleasure, Michael, I appreciate the time. It's very fruitful hour of conversation for me. I feel better,

Michael Jamin:

I feel better

Phil Hudson:

Too. Have this conversation. It's good stuff. Hopefully you guys at home do as well.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, I hope so too. Every all right. As Phil says, we concluded by saying keep writing everyone, so thank you. All right. All right. Bye. Bye-Bye.

Phil Hudson:

This has been an episode of Screenwriters. Need to Hear this with Michael Jamin and Phil Hudson. If you're interested in learning more about writing, make sure you register for Michael's monthly webinar @michaeljamin.com/webinar. If you found this podcast helpful, consider sharing it with a friend and leaving us a five star review on iTunes. For free screenwriting tips, follow Michael Jamin on social media @MichaelJaminwriter. You can follow Phil Hudson on social media @PhilaHudson. This podcast was produced by Phil Hudson. It was edited by Dallas Crane Music. By Ken Joseph. Until next time, keep writing.

This week, Emmy nominated Writer/Producer Jonathan Fener, (American Dad!, iCarly, The Mindy Project, and many more) is on the podcast discussing the importance of having access to industry professionals, getting his footing in the industry, and working in the multi-cam world.

Jonathan Fener on IMDB: https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0271779/

Jonathan Fener on Twitter: https://twitter.com/jfenski

Michael's Online Screenwriting Course - https://michaeljamin.com/course

Free Screenwriting Lesson - https://michaeljamin.com/free

Join My Watchlist - https://michaeljamin.com/watchlist

Michael Jamin:

I always say, you're kissing the wrong asses. Kiss the asses of assistants because they're not go, you know, they don't get their asses kissed. They, they love it. I mean, who wouldn't get, give 'em some attention. They get abused all the time, then they rise up eventually. So, yeah, those are the ones. You gotta be nice to the assistants always, you know.

Hey everyone, it's Michael Jamin. Welcome back to Screenwriters. Need to hear this. I have a wonderful guest today. This is a, this is a, I'm gonna tell you the story, how, how we met. So, as you know, the Writers Guild of America's on Strike, and my next guest is a well-known Setcom writer, although we've never worked together over the years. So our paths, you know, we haven't really crossed, but we know all the same people. And then we started, we were on the picket line outside of CBS Radford, and we started chatting and we had a really nice talk. And I was like, well, this, I gotta bring this guy in the podcast. So everyone, if you're driving your car, please pull over, put your hands together. A warm round of applause for Mr. Jonathan Fener. He is, let me just give you some of his credits before I let him talk.

You'll notice it's a 45 minute podcast, and I, I do talking for about 44 minutes of it, but I'm gonna talk about your credits. He, he wrote on Bette, the Bette Midler show, Veronica's Closet, do-Over Kid, notorious. It's all relative Method. And Red Father of the Pride, you remember that one with Siegfried and Wright the 78th Annual Academy Awards. I wanna talk about that. American Dad. We know that happy endings, old Soul telenovela, the Mindy Project. How come that wasn't a show? Why was that? Just a project. Trolls Holiday, Elliot to Vegas, American Housewife, trolls, holiday in Harmony. We'll talk about that. And most recently, the iCarly reboot as well as well Mullaney. But guys, this guy's been around the block. John, thank you so much for being on the show.

Jonathan Fener:

My pleasure. Thanks for having me. Thank.

Michael Jamin:

So, I wanna find out, I wanna know all about your, your history. Let's take it back from the beginning when your great grandparents met. Let's really do a deep dive into your life. ,

Jonathan Fener:

Eastern Europe.

Michael Jamin:

Eastern Europe. Let's just

Jonathan Fener:

Do, yeah, let's go back to Eastern Europe.

Michael Jamin:

But tell me were you, were okay, so how did you first break into the business and did you always know you wanted to be a, a, a setcom writer?

Jonathan Fener:

Yeah. I, I, even when I didn't know that's what I wanted to do, I, I look back and I'm like, oh, that's what I wanted to do. You know, I, I feel like I'm part of a, a generation that you know, back to watching television shows, videotaping, you know, Saturday Night Live and Uhhuh and sitcoms and, and like I used to audiotape them to

Michael Jamin:

Study

Jonathan Fener:

Them and watch. Yeah. And, and, and like, I would, I would watch Saturday Night Live, even when I was old. It wasn't old enough to like watch it. I would tape it on the VCR that we had, the, the one that popped up Yeah. At the top. And then and then I would have an, and then in the morning I'd watch it all day. And I would, and, and I used to make mixtapes, I guess video mixtapes where I would like, like mix and match different sketches that I liked. And then I and I used to listen to those all the time. And then I would also, I'd watch television shows. I did do that thing where I, I would tape television shows and then I would try and like write out the script. I didn't, I didn't know what the formatting was, so I always was interested in Yes, you'd

Michael Jamin:

Write it, what kind of word for word? Or you'd write your own,

Jonathan Fener:

I'd write it word for word. I would transcribe.

Michael Jamin:

Because that made you a writer then. Did you think that was, what was the point of that?

Jonathan Fener:

Well,

Michael Jamin:

,

Jonathan Fener:

It's like this this, this is gonna sound douchey maybe, but I remember reading this quote, I, I, I think Hunters Thompson once said that he used to just type pages of the Great Gatsby, just to feel oh, what it was like to really, to write those words. Yeah. and so you can draw a direct line between me and Hunter s Thompson and The Great Gatsby. Yeah. And, you know, the Bette Midler show. Like, they're basically one to one.

Michael Jamin:

But then, and Okay, go on. So then, then as a kid, you,

Jonathan Fener:

Well, I always was a, I was a huge comedy fan. I was a huge movie, television, e everything fan, standup comedy. I loved standup comedy. Right. So was always too afraid to do it. But yeah, I mean, I always knew I wanted to be part of making that comedy, you know, television, movies, all that stuff. So I went to Fast Forward, I went to usc. I, I I didn't go to the film school, but I, I just was, just wanted to be in la Oh. And I guess sort of the way sort of goes, you, you get outta school and, and I, I knew a guy that I went to school with who worked at a talent agency, and he got me a job as a messenger when they were still in

Michael Jamin:

Existence as a messenger. And so you were driving around town delivering envelopes.

Jonathan Fener:

That sounds terrible. Thomas Guide. With

Michael Jamin:

Your Thomas

Jonathan Fener:

Guide, right? No yeah. In the heat and the traffic. And how

Michael Jamin:

Long did you do that for?

Jonathan Fener:

I was probably a messenger for about, I don't know, matter of months, maybe like 3, 4, 5 months. And then a desk opens up and then you're, you're answering phones, so, oh, so

Michael Jamin:

You didn't have to go to the mail room, you went from Messenger to

Jonathan Fener:

It really wasn't a mail room. I, it was a very small town agency. Okay. It, it was called the Herb Schechter Company. Sure. I dunno if you ever No, I've heard. And it was like back in the day where, you know, he mostly represented like TV writers. They had a whole below the line department. It was a small agency and they didn't really have a male. One boutique. Yeah. Boutique. Boutique. They had a lot of like, guys that were like supervising producers on Magnum, stuff like

Michael Jamin:

That. But that's a good, but then, so how long, cuz you know, I was a, I was an assistant at William Morris for three days. I got fired on my second day and I go, but I stuck out the week. I finished the week . So I, I applaud you for being like, it's just a hard job being an assistant for an agent, because I found it was,

Jonathan Fener:

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I was an assistant for a lot of different people. I was, I, and it, I think it helped that it was kind of, I, I don't know if low, I guess low stakes, cuz it wasn't like, I wasn't at caa. I wasn't at, you know, William Morris. I was at this tiny little agency and this woman I worked for was, you know, she represented like stunt coordinators and, and oh, like that. So not that, look, I still had to do the like, rolling calls thing and all that

Michael Jamin:

Stuff. But did you, but did that, did that give you context? Like what did that, what what, what was your takeaway from doing that job for however

Jonathan Fener:

Long? Honestly, a lot of the jobs I had until I was a writer were, it taught me what I didn't want to do. Yes. I'm like, oh, I work for an agent. I don't wanna be an agent. Right. And then there's like a network of assistances mm-hmm. where, you know, there was another agent there, this really nice woman named Deborah Lee. I still remember her. She she called me in one day. She's like, what do you want to do? What are you doing? I'm like, I don't know. You know, I mean, I, I think I wanna write, but, you know, may maybe I wanna be a creative exec. I just, I wasn't sure. Okay. So she was like, well, I have a friend who works at Fox and they need an assistant. So, you know, if you wanna get outta here and go work there.

And I was like, great. So I went to go work for this other woman and then I just met, I would just meet assistants and they would offer me other jobs. I worked for this guy. My biggest assistant job was I worked for this guy John Matian, who was the president of Fox Network. Mm-Hmm. . So that was the first time where I saw an entire television season from pitches, development scripts and shooting all the way through. Right. Cause I was on his desk and I read every script that came across his desk that was like, I don't know if you remember that guy, or even like, that was the year, that was like in the early mid nineties when they were like, maybe gonna try and do like friends. Like they had this show called Partners and Ned and Stacy and

Michael Jamin:

Ned and Stacy. Yep.

Jonathan Fener:

It was becoming a little bit more of like, let's try and make a, a friends clone. So like the XFiles was happening then, right? It was just like, it was, I had one year where I had an entire overview of television and I'm like, and then I would read the scripts and I'm like, I think I can, I I can do this. I can. So

Michael Jamin:

Did who, where did you learn to write then? What do you, what was the next step?

Jonathan Fener:

I just figured it out. I mean, I think that what happened was I met my partner who was my friend Josh by Cell. And we were buddies. And he was at UCLA in screenwriting school actually. Okay. And he was actually writing with his dad. He, him and his dad were writing a script together. It was, it was very, and I was, we would just talk about stuff. And, and then, so the story is that we had another friend who was a PA on this show called The Single Guy. Yep. Remember that show with Jonathan Silverman? Yes.

Michael Jamin:

Jonathan Silverman. Yep.

Jonathan Fener:

Yeah. The Brad Hall show. And we, he used to bring home scripts every week and we would read them and we were like, I can't remember, one of us pitched an idea, but funny if they did an episode, whatever, like in real time of whatever. And then we're like, we should write it. Let's just write it. We know how to do it. We should just write it. So we sat down and wrote this script and it was, I thought it was pretty good. And , we, we, and, and again, the assistant network was we knew somebody who was an assistant to Richard Whites at the time. Yeah. Who was a young guy. And

Michael Jamin:

And young agent. He was I c m probably, right?

Jonathan Fener:

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And, and it was just one of these things where like, after a while I was assistant for three, four years and I had access cuz all the young people that I was working with were now becoming executives or agents. Yeah. So there were people you could actually hand your script to. They would read it as opposed to just throwing it in a pile. Right. And the, the, the long and the short of it was Richard read the script because Brad was a client of his, and I remember he called me at my house and he was like, your friend Mallory gave me your script. I think it's funny and I think that you need to write something else because no one will read a single guy. He's like, I only read it because I represent Brad, but no one will read. He's like, you have to write friends, you have to write Seinfeld, you have to write news, radio, whatever. So Right. That, that was kind of the first thing where we were like, Hey, we can maybe do this. Let's do

Michael Jamin:

This. That's interesting because this is what I say. Cuz people always sit and they're like, well, do I have to move to Hollywood to break into Hollywood? It's like, well, this is how you do it. You get these jobs, you know, you become an assistant and you network or you get on the network and then that's how you make connections. So that's what you did. I do. I wonder, do you think the assistant network is still strong now? I mean, so everything's changing so much.

Jonathan Fener:

Yeah. You know, it's a good question. You know, it's like, that's the age old question. Like, how do you break in? And, you know, I feel for years now that like, maybe that's not the way it's done anymore. May maybe I'm just looking at like, stuff as like an older guy where like I look at people and I go, I don't know. Can't you make your own television show on your phone? Or something like, I, but you know, you, you still need some kind of access, I think. And maybe I don't even, maybe I don't, I can't wrap my mind around it a little bit. But like, it just seems like if you do, if you write something, if you make something, someone's gotta watch it. Someone's gotta see it. Mm-Hmm. that can make a decision for you or, or help you. Right. And that's about, that's about that relationships.

Michael Jamin:

But then how did, so what was your next step? How did you get on staff?

Jonathan Fener:

We wrote a bunch of specs and we had some friends that were becoming agents. A guy that I, I, I was, I was an assistant with a guy who became an agent and he was a paradigm. We, we kind of, we worked with him for a little bit, but it was, we, cuz like we were friends and like, when things don't go so well sometimes mm-hmm. , it's like it's messing up the relationship. So I think we just were able to get, look, we, we, we, anybody that would read our script, that was a, that was a young agent, we would somehow try and get to them. And everybody passed. One guy at I C m mm-hmm. was signed us. I mean, I, I remember very clearly getting a phone call. I, I, you know, my partner and I, Josh, our birthdays are a week apart. We really were like, you know, we were friends, we were, you know, we, it was like intertwined lives. But we were having like a joint birthday party mm-hmm. . And we got a phone call that, you know, they wanted to sign us. And that was a big, big fucking

Michael Jamin:

Deal. And, and what, and they submitted you to which show? What was the first show then?

Jonathan Fener:

Well, this is funny how things work too. So his one big connection was this woman shit. Her name was Debbie. This is Embarra. I, that's okay. She, she ran Bry, Kaufman Crane. She was like their development person.

Michael Jamin:

Right.

Jonathan Fener:

And I feel bad that I don't remember her name cuz she was sweet. And, but that was a good relationship that he had. Mm-Hmm. . So they submitted us for Veronica's Closet. Right. The, it, it was, it had done a year. It did. Well, you know, Christie alley's back to TV and it was, I mean, it was Thursday night. Yeah. Nbc I mean, it was a huge, huge show. And

Michael Jamin:

Let's take it back for a second. That used to be a big time slot. Thursday night, n b slate, nbc. Now I don't even know what now. I don't know what they, what they're doing there, but maybe some, it's reality. It's so

Jonathan Fener:

Fire, something fire.

Michael Jamin:

Is it some dump Dumpster fire? But that's the one. So, but it's, so, but this is something else that you bring up which I think is really interesting. Like, people always say you're kissing, I always say you're kissing the wrong asses. Kiss the asses of assistant because they're not go, you know, they don't get their asses kissed. They didn't, they love it. I mean, who wouldn't get, give 'em some attention. They get abused all the time, then they rise up eventually. Yeah. So those are the ones you gotta be nice to the assistants always, you know,

Jonathan Fener:

Oh, yeah. Christmas, you know, send them, get the, get the gift card, do the thing. Yeah. I mean, you know, they'll put your call through. I mean, look, I mean, they can do only so much, but yeah, it was, it's just, again, everybody, even if it's the same trajectory, everybody's story is a little bit different, you know? Yeah. And you know, it, it was, I think we were, I think we were lucky, but it was also, it was a, it was, you know, I, I hate to sound like I'm a thousand years old, but it was a very different time. Yeah. And, you know, staffing was like, almost were all seemed like so many opportunities. And it was just like, it almost seemed like, it wasn't like, you know, if I'm gonna get staffed, it was sort of like, where am I gonna get staffed? And, and but, but you know, you sweated out and I never felt like that. I mean, and for every, we, we, I don't think, you know, look, I, I think we were good and, and, but and still are. But you know, I never felt like we were juggling offers . Yeah. You know, it was definitely like, you know, okay, we got this gig and, and you know,

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. People don't, people don't realize that as well. Like, once you're in, it's great. It, that first job is hard, but you're, then you always gotta worry. You gotta worry about your next job. None of it's, you know, if people think well, you know, it is like you must have it made, but you don't, you never have it made. You're always hustling.

Jonathan Fener:

Never.

Michael Jamin:

What did you feel your first season as a staff writer? Did you feel comfortable? Did you feel like, oh, and over your head?

Jonathan Fener:

Honestly, no. I, I, I can say that with confidence. I felt like I got there and I was like, yeah, this is what I should be doing. Oh, you said I'm not just Yeah. You know, look, we were the youngest guys that, you know, we were the staff writers. Right. The baby writers. It was a very challenging place to work. I mean, you know, Bry, Kaufman Crane, you know, look, we, I could, we could do an entire podcast on just working on b Brianca's Closet and just literally being down the hall from season five of friends. It's like the Beatles. Yes. They, they, their, their dressing room is down the hall. And I'm, you know, with Jerry the Pacemakers or something. Not that, not that. That's, that's a great reference, by the way, for all your younger,

Michael Jamin:

I don't, I don't know. Listener. Yeah.

Jonathan Fener:

Just some, but it was like, and the show was, you know, it, it was what it was. It was funny. There were tons of funny people on that show, people I still talk to, to this day. Honestly, but it was like the, the culture of that. And I think it, it's a, it's, it's not a news story in sitcoms. But, you know, we worked, we watched the Sun come up all the time, and it was really, that was my first step. It was like, I had never done it before, but I was like, I knew immediately. I'm like, this is not the way it, this is not the way it should be. Right.

Michael Jamin:

Was it cause stories were being tossed out? Or notes from the network or what?

Jonathan Fener:

Yeah, it, it was poor, poor management.

Michael Jamin:

Oh, time management. It was

Jonathan Fener:

Poor time management. You know, I would say like, you know, you're, when you work on a, on a show with terrible hours, you're just like, you're a victim of somebody else's bad

Michael Jamin:

Work. Well, there's, there's that. Yeah. Yeah. I always felt very when we were running a show, I was like, I always felt I would crack the whip just because I felt like I want people to go home. I want stop messing around. And, and I was a hard ass in that way. Cause I wanna go home and I think you wanna go home too, don't you? You know, like, let's just work and go home.

Jonathan Fener:

Those are the ones, the ones that don't want to go home. Those are the

Michael Jamin:

Worst. Yeah. Those are the worst. Right. Did you, were you on many shows like that, where you felt like a hostage ?

Jonathan Fener:

No. well, let me think. Not really. That was the worst. And then there were a couple other shows that were rough, but I think that, like, as time went on, I definitely got lucky as time went on that I, I worked for de Decent people.

Michael Jamin:

Well, you also had another show that was basically the stepchild, which was American Dad compared to Family Guy. I mean, family Guy. Was this behemoth, not that American Dead was any slouch, but you were still in the shadow of a, a family guy, right?

Jonathan Fener:

That's right. The other one. Yeah. Yeah. The other show. Which, but that Yeah. And that, that was good point. No, but it was, it was and animation was something that I, you know, we got into pretty early on too. And I really, really liked that. And you know, there, there's animation usually is not terrible because the deadlines are, are way far apart. Yeah. Like, as far as like, you know, like Multicam is probably the worst because it literally, you gotta rewrite it

Michael Jamin:

Tonight at four, at four o'clock you start your day basically. Yeah. After

Jonathan Fener:

The run Yeah. Run through is it ruins your whole night. And then it's like someone has, like, if you're doing single camera, you know it, you're usually reading a script for the next week. So, you know, you want to get it done by tonight, but, you know, maybe you can leave a couple of jokes and then the next day you can like, sort of clean it up. Right. But like Multicam, they're, they're at rehearsal at 9:00 AM so they need a script.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. Yeah. And that was your joint. You were on the Warner Brothers slot. All right. So then, so then what happened? You, I'm gonna, I'm going with your credits over here. So Veronica's closet. And then what about, what was, you were there for, well, how many, well, how many seasons was that? The show was what? Two seasons?

Jonathan Fener:

They did? Th they three. I was on the last two.

Michael Jamin:

The last two. And then when it was done, what happened?

Jonathan Fener:

When it was done, I was like, I, I did it. I, you know, no, I, I was like we, we just got back out in the staffing pool, you know?

Michael Jamin:

Right. And then you just jumped.

Jonathan Fener:

We, we, yeah, that was the next, the next season we went to, we got on the Bette Midler show, which at the time was like massive. It was massive. That

Michael Jamin:

Was massive. And then,

Jonathan Fener:

And that's another, I'm sorry to interrupt. I was gonna say, like, that's an interesting story where, you know, I don't know if you think of 2 26 year old guys as like, yeah, we gotta get those guys on the Bette Midler show. Mm-Hmm. . But our agent submitted us, and at the time we were even thinking to ourselves like, what, what samples can we write that are a little different? So we wrote a Buffy, the Empire Slayer Script, just cuz like, we liked the show and Right. The tone. And so we wrote that and then, and I think we were like, maybe we can look and see about, you know, maybe getting on like an hour or something like that. And then the, it just so happens that Jos Whedon, I think worked for the guy that created that show, Fette.

Michael Jamin:

So I was gonna say, I wanted to say Cohan and Nik, but no, that, I don't think that's right. Who created it?

Jonathan Fener:

Jeffrey Lane.

Michael Jamin:

Jeffrey Lane, of course. Right,

Jonathan Fener:

Right. Who was a big mad about you, dude.

Michael Jamin:

Yes. And then, then working for Bette. I mean, that's, that's a whole other thing. You have this oversized star, really a giant star. And she must have had a lot of creative input.

Jonathan Fener:

Yeah, yeah. You know, she had opinions, but no, she was it was, it was nuts. I mean, you know, they picked that show up for a full season, which even, even then wasn't a thing. And she, she just was like, like such a massive force, you know? Yeah. Almost too big for television. I would even say, like, I remember thinking, she's on the stage and I'm like, and I mean the sound stage. Like I can see her playing Caesars just live or in the movies where she's gigantic. But there's also, there's, there's, I don't know if muting is the right word, but you know what I mean, like, like, there's just something about those mediums that like, sort of, and, and I just think on tv she just was like, massive. Just like, but, but, you know, really funny. And, you know, she did everything. You know, she sang the Rose and she, it was like, pulled out all the stops. It was just, it was almost like, and I don't think she knew what being on a television show entailed. I think when you take people that have never worked on TV and put them on tv, they're like, I have to come back again tomorrow. And Yeah. Tomorrow. And it's a new script today. And like, they're used to shooting films, but even like, it, it's, it's a grind for everybody. Yeah.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah.

Jonathan Fener:

So

Michael Jamin:

She, she became a little cantankerous. You think ?

Jonathan Fener:

She, I think, yeah. No, she, she, she, you know, she liked me. she liked me and my partner. We, we wrote this episode actually with Kobe Bryant in it.

Michael Jamin:

Oh, okay.

Jonathan Fener:

And I think they were like, get the young guys to write this. And Kobe was, and he agreed to do the show. I think his wife was a huge Bette Midler fan. He, I think he said, I mean, he was nice guy. I remember meeting him and the show, I mean, think about this. We shot the sh we shot our episode in the forum. Like, and, and the, the, the plot of the show is that, that becomes like, she basically accidentally gets onto the court and she starts dancing with the Laker girls. I

Michael Jamin:

Don't know, but it was a multi happened. It was a Multicam, right?

Jonathan Fener:

Yeah. But they just, they shot it on the forum, I mean, on form. They, and it was, it was the kind of thing where it was like, whatever it cost, it cost,

Michael Jamin:

Right.

Jonathan Fener:

They booked the forum and, and that episode sort of turned out okay. And then I think she felt like, oh, these guys get the show. So they took us out, she took us out to lunch, and she's like, what should, what should the show be? You guys see that? Oh

Michael Jamin:

No. Oh no. And you guys are, you guys are story editors at this point. Right. See, that would be panicked about that. That's not good.

Jonathan Fener:

Co Cohen was at that lunch too.

Michael Jamin:

Oh, she took Rob. See, that's the thing. She loved

Jonathan Fener:

Rob, loved Rob.

Michael Jamin:

My, my rule of thumb early in my career is don't let the actors know your name cuz only bad things can come of it. . And then, and then, right. So she takes you and now you're, maybe you don't wanna talk about this, but I, that puts you in a difficult position because she should be taking the showrunner and the showrunner should be bouncing you. She should be bouncing the ideas and not, you know,

Jonathan Fener:

You know. Yeah. It was a Yeah, it was. I mean, I didn't know. We were just like, well, you know, just more do more of this stuff. Right, right. You know, we'll, you know, go to a baseball game. Or, I, I just think she, I, I, look, I think that she was searching for what the show was. I think the showrunner was, I think they just were, and it was a, it was a weird, not a weird premise, but it was like, she, she played a character named Bette, and she played Aer that was a famous Hollywood actress and had been in a movie called The Rose and all these things that were true. Right. But she kept saying, I'm, but I'm not Bette Midler.

Michael Jamin:

She would say that in the show, but I'm not Bette Midler. She would say, she would say that to

Jonathan Fener:

Us. Oh, okay. Cause we would write jokes and she's like, but I'm not Bette Midler. And we're like, but you were in The Rose. And we're like, okay. Bette Schidler. You're bet. Schidler. Yeah. And, and, and a lot of stuff that happened to her in real life we would try and put into the show. But it was like, it was just one of those things where we were just trying to find our footing and, and, and never really found it.

Michael Jamin:

Wow. But that's pretty cool though. I mean, hanging out with Bette Midler's pretty cool. She

Jonathan Fener:

Was something else, man. She was like a, like I said, like a force, like just funny and, and just larger than life. And

Michael Jamin:

You know, but we were, we didn't just shoot me. And and George Siegel, of course, in the seventies, there was no bigger actor than George Siegel. And he was

Jonathan Fener:

Huge. Yeah. Funny.

Michael Jamin:

And then c just shoot me. And we wrote an episode and he, George could not have been a sweeter guy, such a nice guy and great sense of humor. But there was one episode he, I guess he wasn't happy with what he was playing. Maybe he didn't have enough lines, or maybe he thought his storyline was dumb or whatever. . But I remember he, we were all the writer's rehearsal. And George goes, you know, I was nominated for an Emmy. I'm sorry. He was, you don't have nominated for an Oscar. You know that. Right. And one of the writers goes, yeah, that was a long time ago. George. Get in the dunk tank. . And George thought that was so funny. I mean, he like, to his credit, he just laughed. He thought it was great. .

Jonathan Fener:

That's so funny.

Michael Jamin:

That's what's fun about working with some of these, you know, some, some of these old timers are great, some of them are, you know, a little di difficult. Who knows. All right. So then what, at what point did you guys start developing your own shows? Cause that's always a big leap.

Jonathan Fener:

You know, we, we were kind of like wanting to do that early. And I remember that was another thing that was not encouraged. Yeah.

Michael Jamin:

Not then it

Jonathan Fener:

Wasn't at all. It was just sort of like, it was the tail end of it, but it was kind of just like, here's the model. Get on staff. Mm-Hmm. work your way up to producer, supervising producer, get a deal. Mm-Hmm. and then you develop. Right. So that was the, that was the the road. But we were like, no, we have some ideas. And you know, if they don't wanna listen to us at, at nbc, then maybe they'll listen to us at mtv. So we had heard that MTV was looking to develop shows. Cheap show. I mean, it's like that thing every, like couple of years. MTV's like, we wanna do scripted. And then they would hardly ever do it, but Right. We had this idea that we would do cuz they wanted to repurpose videos, but somehow do it in a scripted way.

So we had this idea that we would do like Dream on, but with music videos. So it was about a kid whose interior monologue was music videos instead of old movies. Right, right. And like, just seemed it was like risky business, but the kid is 16 and he's just that. So we sold that. We actually sold that and wrote it and it never got shot. But that was like, pretty early. That was like a couple years in. And we sold a movie. Like, we were kind of like trying a bunch of stuff. But I think that we early on were like, I feel like we should do our own stuff too. Uhhuh . So I always have said like, like, like I don't, I don't know what it's like to have just like one job. I always feel like I was doing two things at once. So like, eventually if people are always like, they're on staff, like I was always on staff. And then on the weekends I was working on the other thing.

Michael Jamin:

You see, people don't understand how exhausting that is cuz you're on staff, you're working very long days and then on the weekends you're working more. You know, it's, it's, it's good for you when you're, you know, it's hard. It's hard to do that. Yeah.

Jonathan Fener:

It was hard. And I think it was the right look. I wasn't, I was, I was, I was married, but I didn't have any kids and mm-hmm. , you know, but it's, it was tough, man. I mean, you know, and, and that was back before you, we were zooming. So like, we would go, I'd go to Josh's house, he'd come to my house, Uhhuh, . I mean, we used to literally meet in the middle and trade.

Michael Jamin:

Oh. Cause you guys, you guys let, did you live far apart from each other?

Jonathan Fener:

Yeah, yeah. We, we, we, yeah. Usually

Michael Jamin:

Trade far discs. So I'm, I'm skipping ahead a little bit, but, but I'm curious to know, well first of all, I wanna know how, what was the academy, how did you work on the Academy Awards? How did that come about? That's such an odd term for you that

Jonathan Fener:

Yeah, that was, that was the connection. There was, that was the year John Stewart hosted, I don't know if that was his first time. I know he did a bunch of times. It was the year of crash crash one. Okay. The best picture. And like Philip er Hoffman one for Capote, but John was Right. Was hosting and he brought out like a bunch of daily show people. And my partner went to college with a guy, Ben Carlin. Yes. Who I kind of became friends with too, because of those guys. So, so Ben was running the Daily Show. He was one of the eps. And so when he came out, he called me and Josh and a couple of other guys and asked if we wanted to be part of the staff of people. Basically they, the, the Daily Show guys wrote the monologue. They asked us the la guys to write like short film parodies of the nominees.

Right. So, and then, you know, maybe help out with the, and and, and on on show night we would be part of the joke room cuz they're writing jokes throughout the night. With like, I mean, Bruce Lance was there mm-hmm. and some local school guys were, were there. But so yeah. So we basically pitched like 20 little short filmed things and they picked five or six of 'em and then we got to produce them and, and, and all that. But we were part of that whole thing. That sounds fun. Yeah, it was really fun. It was really, really fun. And like on show night, we literally, they put us down in this basement and we are like watching the show live and it was like instant messaging. If whatever, who, if somebody won something, we would like shoot a bunch of jokes up to them and the wings. But

Michael Jamin:

Did you have to wear a tuxedo to do that? Yes. In my mind. You, I knew it in my mind, you have to wear a tuxedo even though you're not gonna be on camera, but you're at the Oscars. Wow. They tell you that

Jonathan Fener:

Because Yeah. Be because we were, I mean, it was really cool. I mean, we got, went, went to, you know, my, my wife and, and Josh's wife and, and all the wives got to go to the show. Right. They got tickets to the show. We were downstairs and then afterwards we went to the governor's ball. Right. I mean, it was really, I mean, we had access.

Michael Jamin:

That's a trip.

Jonathan Fener:

That's, it was, that didn't get a gift back. I was really hoping I'd get like a, because I always, I'm like, there's like a trip to Australia in there or something, but I,

Michael Jamin:

But you got a nice, you got a nice paycheck that's got that kind of counts for something.

Jonathan Fener:

I don't remember how much we got paid. I don't know if it was, I, I feel like, I don't know

Michael Jamin:

Now what about it was great. What about the Mindy Project? Cuz that was like a big, that must have been a big experience for you.

Jonathan Fener:

Yeah. Yeah. That was, that was fun. And, and that when we were, we had a deal at Universal mm-hmm. . And we had, we, we were kind of lucky. Like we, that was when I worked on the Malaney show and Right. We did a lot of development when we were there and we supervised and ran a couple of shows there. But that was sort of towards the end where they just asked us to come and help out.

Michael Jamin:

Okay.

Jonathan Fener:

Oh, for a season. Yeah. And it was it was like, it it is one of those things though, where it was a very tight, well-oiled machine and we, and it was, it was fine. It, it was, it was kind of funny though cuz it was like, you, this sort of happens where, you know, you, you write pilots, you shoot pilots, you run shows, but then sometimes you're a staff guy again. Yeah. And that was a gig where we were sort of like, alright, we're part of this staff. And, and everybody there was like, really funny, really smart. Like, I think, I think that writer's room literally had like three former Lampoon editors, Uhhuh and just like really, really funny smart guys. Right. And women. And we just were like, okay, we're just pitching jokes.

Michael Jamin:

You're, oh, okay. And then so that, that's, that's the whole experience. But did Mindy run the show? Was she the showrunner at,

Jonathan Fener:

I mean, she, I she, she had, there was a guy named Matt War Burton, who was sort of running the room mm-hmm. When she was gone. Because the most impressive thing was that she, she shot all day. Yes. Because it was seeing the camera show. She was the star of the show. But she came in at lunch, Uhhuh . And Matt would pitch her and she very efficiently was like, I love this. I love this. What if this happens? What if this happens? Gotta go. And so she, she had the final say. Right. But she was busy, you know. Yeah. And, and that, I I'm trying to think Melany was that way too, but Melany was really part of the writing and that was also a Multicam. So,

Michael Jamin:

And that was probably, it's, that Melany show was probably three years too soon. Like, you know, like before he really became huge.

Jonathan Fener:

Yeah. Yeah. That was, you know, I, I think that, that, this was my opinion and I'm not like making this up. And I remember we used to talk, like John was trying, I feel like John was trying to do something where, you know, everyone just looked at it and at face value and said, oh, it's Seinfeld. He's just doing Seinfeld. But Uhhuh, I think he really, really liked the, the medium. He liked multi-cam, but there was a part of it that I think was a little bit satirical. Mm-Hmm. . But it really, I, I think that if you didn't know that you're just like, oh, he's just, is just a, you know, like I feel like some of the stories that he pitched he felt were funny because it's like, oh, this is kind of a clammy story. But I, but I think it's funny in like, I'm doing it with a wink. Right. But I think people maybe saw it and said, there's

Michael Jamin:

No wink. I don't

Jonathan Fener:

See the wink. Yeah. There's no, yeah. And, and, you know, but it, it was, it's not that it was the wrong vehicle because it was his show. And, and, and he is the funniest guy in the room always, you know? Right. I mean, and NA, see Petra was on the, was in the cast too. She was really funny. There was a great cast. Elliot Gould was on that show. Martin Short was on that show. Yeah. It was like, it was, it was, it was really, really fun. But yeah, maybe it was, I, I think maybe he was trying to like rein, not reinvent the multi-cam, but just like, turn it on 10 a little bit. Right. And it maybe wasn't, no one was like, ready for that.

Michael Jamin:

Hey, it's Michael Jamen. If you like my videos and you want me to email them to you for free, join my watch list. Every Friday I send out my top three videos. These are for writers, actors, creative types. You can unsubscribe whenever you want. I'm not gonna spam you and it's absolutely free. Just go to michael jamin.com/watchlist.

Did you, cause whenever we developed for comics, we, you know, we wound up studying, then we read, we watched the act, we read, listened to their, whatever the audio books or, you know, read their, did you do the same as well for

Jonathan Fener:

I just knew you mean for that show or for,

Michael Jamin:

Well, for Malaney or, or for any, any comic that you're writing for. Really. Or even like Bette, you know, for example,

Jonathan Fener:

Well, Bette, I mean, we definitely like combed through her career and her life and mm-hmm. tried to get stories from it. Mm-Hmm. yeah. Whenever, and, and, and, and, you know, the, the Mullany thing, we, we kind of like, we were also, that was a period of time where like, we were on that staff for a period of time, and then we had a pilot picked up and went to go shoot it. Oh. So we were sort of there for a, a specific period of time. But like, that show was all him to me. I mean, he ran that with a guy John Pollock, a good friend who who's also like, he, he's, he's such a good, he's a pro guy. He's a pro and, and can guide things. He's so funny and smart. But so I think that, that they really clicked well. And there were a lot of really funny people on that staff too. But yeah. Yeah. I, I think that to answer your question, it's always good, especially if you're dealing with somebody who's gonna put a little bit of their lives into it, to just mm-hmm. because I mean, frankly, you, you kind of want to like, connect with them too. Like, it's something that they can connect with. Right. Unless they don't wanna do it. Unless they wanna be completely a different person if they're being some version of themselves. Yeah.

Michael Jamin:

What's so odd is that you and I have never worked together, even though we've worked with so many of the same people, you know? Yeah. It seems, it seems like very odd that, you know, how how did that never happen? But how do you see, like, so okay, we are on strike. How do you see the business now? Like, what do you, like, what's your take on the past, I don't know, three to five years? You know

Jonathan Fener:

Everything's going great. It's great.

Michael Jamin:

Everything's perfect.

Jonathan Fener:

and just getting better

Michael Jamin:

.

Jonathan Fener:

I, everybody knows what's going on. Yeah. no, I I think it, to me it feels like it's a massive sea change. Yeah. It really feels like even having lived through the first strike, like that was streaming was just kind of coming around and, you know, Netflix was a thing and, but now everything has completely been disrupted and mm-hmm. , I just think that I mean look, this is nothing new, but like, you know, to, to me, cable seemed to be working okay. And then streaming came in and it just seemed like there were no parameters. It's like all the streaming services come, came around. And I understood economically that like all the studios are gonna want to have their own thing mm-hmm. and not have to license it to anybody anymore. But without the structure of a, of a schedule, like a nightly schedule, it's just like, it just became a bottomless pit.

Yeah. And so there was this five, you know, it, it was the, it was the old, it was the, the Wild West again. And there's a billion shows. And I, I, you know, some of these studios I guess were just like, wait, this is so expensive. Like a full staff for every show and we're making so many shows. We need to, now, now it's like we overspent now we need to back up a little bit. And then, but in the meantime, to me, I just felt like it was, like the rules got changed where there was a somewhat of a model in network television and even cable where it's like, we're gonna pick this show up for X number of episodes. We're gonna have this many people on staff. That's the way it's done. Mm-Hmm. . And then now the, it's like, oh, we have this new area of streaming. We're just gonna do things differently. Now we're gonna hire three people. Mm-Hmm. , or the guy that created the show is just gonna write 'em all and then shoot 'em all. And it, it just, I don't, it's, it's, you know, I mean, all I can know, all I can do is keep doing what I do, but it's, you know, it seems more, it, it really seems, it feels like the ground underneath us is that much more Yeah. Shaky. Really shaky.

Michael Jamin:

How do you, and what's your take? I don't know if you work a lot with, well you know, young, well, let's see. I actually, I have two questions I wanna ask you cuz your last, your last network show was probably was what The Mindy Project? Cause I haven't worked, I haven't worked in the network for a while. It's all been cable. Right.

Jonathan Fener:

The last network show I worked on was American Housewife

Michael Jamin:

Oh. American House. So it's so interesting. Which wasn't even that long ago. And so you're working with young, there's bigger staffs on network. You're, they're bringing in younger writers. What's it like? What, what are the kids like? Do you think they're different these days on network shows?

Michael Jamin:

Because we had a hierarchy. We had, there was a pattern. There was a, you know, all broken.

Jonathan Fener:

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I, I, I, I think it's probably better. I mean, I worked, I worked in some rough rooms and then I worked in some more, you know, I certainly, I don't feel like I ran a rough room. What do you mean?

Michael Jamin:

What do you mean by rough room? What were they like?

Jonathan Fener:

Just a, that the, the real hierarchy. Like when I was a staff writer, you were not really expected to talk very much. Right. It was kind of like sit and listen. Right. But and then I'd say I'd, I'd pitch something and they'd be like, not now. And I'd say, I'm sorry. And they'd say, don't be sorry. Just be quiet.

Michael Jamin:

. Don't be sorry. Don't let happen

Jonathan Fener:

Again. Don't be sorry. Just be quiet. I, I, and like, look, that's the, that's the, it was always done with a joke. You know what I mean? Right. And, and like, I don't ever feel like I was treated cruelly. Mm. I mean, I mean, I guess I, I guess it was cruel that, you know, I did feel like I was held hostage and, you know, yeah. Going home at 6 30, 7 o'clock in the morning in, in rush hour traffic the wrong way. Like yeah. My nights and days were mixed up. But like, eventually what I was gonna say was I just feel like there was something to earning it a little bit. You know, I, I just feel like, you know, even even those first jobs, like, especially like Bright Coffman Crane, I remember there were certain things that you, like, they were big on floor pitching Right.

On, on, on, on show night. And that's great experience. I mean, look, multi cams aren't around as much as they used to be, but like, I remember learning a ton. Like, I, I can still shoot back to the time we were on show night and a joke bombed, and then you just huddle up mm-hmm. and you're just staring at each other and everyone's thinking, and you gotta come up with an alt. And people are pitching stuff and it's like, and you pitch a joke and everybody laughs and you're like, oh my God, you're the

Michael Jamin:

Hero.

Jonathan Fener:

Amazing. And then, yeah. And then, and then they put it in and it

Michael Jamin:

Dies and it, and it dies. Yeah. That's what a flip joke. People listen. That's what a floor pitch is. I'm showing that on a multicam, you at the last minute throw a joke in after one bombs. So

Jonathan Fener:

Yeah. Right. And then you finally, you, you give up and you just pitch a joke with the word nipple in it. . And people laugh at that and you're like, ah, I hate myself. Yeah. But no, but, but I, I think that now, you know, ha like being the older guy and, and even, you know, running a show, like, there, there is a, there is a certain level of like, everybody has an equal voice mm-hmm. . And, which I think is good, you know, but I also think that there's, it's not that you are less than at all. To me it was always about like experience. Mm-Hmm. . Like, you, you just gotta, you know what it is, it's about, it's, there's, there's no substitute for being able to read the room. Yeah. And there are people sometimes that are younger and less experienced and they, they pitch an idea and no one says anything, which is like the night, it's, it's, you know, the worst is if someone says, that sucks. Right. But if you pitch a joke or a story and no one really like, jumps on it, no one Yes. Ands it, you know what, let it float away because Yeah. You know, and then if you re-pitch it and then you re-pitch it,

Michael Jamin:

You're gonna get yelled at, you're

Jonathan Fener:

Gonna get yelled at. Like, that's just not cool. And I feel like sometimes maybe people don't like that anymore. You know? Yeah. Like, you're not supposed to do.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. I hear you. What, what? Surprised It's so hard. There's a huge learning curve on their job. And when someone pitches an idea, if it's a good idea, it really doesn't matter who it comes from, but it's pretty obvious when it's a good idea. The right. Like the, the senior writers are, oh, that's good. Right. And if you're new inexperienced, you just don't know what's, what's a good idea from a bad idea. And I think they sometimes get a little offended or hurt. It's no, it's, it's not, it's not, it's not, it's just the idea. It's not you, you know? Right. The idea didn't land.

Jonathan Fener:

Sometimes it's them. No. Sometimes it's

Michael Jamin:

Them

Jonathan Fener:

. But yeah, it's, it best idea wins always, always, always. Yeah.

Michael Jamin:

Best idea. Gets you homework faster and so and so. Yeah. I know. Well, I was gonna ask you something else. Oh. Oh, that's, that's how I was gonna say we met, we met years ago. Cause you were running a show, which is an interesting thing that you did was said you were running a show called Awesome Town, but you were running it. Someone else with less experienced writer wrote it and you guys were brought on to supervisor it. Right,

Jonathan Fener:

Right, right.

Michael Jamin:

It was like, so talk about your experience doing that kind of stuff.

Jonathan Fener:

That was the first time we'd ever done that. We've, and we've done that a bunch just because I feel like my partner and I, that's not really something that a lot of people love to do, like run other people's shows. Everybody wants to, you know, get your own thing. And we were writing our own pilots at the time too. But if you get enough experience, honestly, you know, my feeling is you want to have as many skills as possible in this business because mm-hmm. , you know, you want to just have another arrow in your quiver.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah.

Jonathan Fener:

That's the right term. But like, so i, if you can successfully help someone just guide the ship and it's their show and they've never done it before, cuz that's a really hard job.

Michael Jamin:

Were there creative struggles though, between you and them at all when you do this?

Jonathan Fener:

No, honestly, no. I really feel like it was this guy, Adam Ste. Hillel, who's like super nice guy. He he's like big feature guy now. I think he wrote Black Adam. Mm-Hmm. , he like, works with the Rock a lot and, and he created Undateable with Bill Lawrence too. Mm-Hmm. . So he's, he's had a bunch of stuff. No, he's very nice guy. Very funny. And it was actually kind of cool that he got this job on, it was basically just about the, these four like early twenties friends and negotiating life afterwards and they threw a lot of stuff. It's funny, I remember they, they picked the show up because I feel like a, b C was looking to do something in the younger space. Right. But it did, it was one of those shows. It wasn't, it was very low concept. And there was a whole opening teaser that we, I I always suspected, this is why it got picked up cuz it was very, it was very American pie.

It was like kind of dirty and there was like a couple and somebody had peanut butter on them and a dog was looking and Right. You can imagine. So but I remember thinking like, this is why they picked it up because this is outrageous. There's no way they ever shoot this though. Right. Which is like, that's like an age old story in tv. It's like the thing they love about it. Mm-Hmm. is the thing they cut first. It's exactly right. You know, it's like you, you, you pick up a show called like Immortal because the, the lead character ha has been alive for a thousand years. Uhhuh. And then the first note is, can we make him immortal please? Yes,

Michael Jamin:

That's exactly right.

Jonathan Fener:

Yeah. but, and you do it cuz you're like, oh, they just they just picked up the show. They just gave me a budget and Right. But so they, they made a bunch of changes to this show and including changing that entire teaser. But it was, it was just an opportunity that came because again, like I think we had written a pilot for the studio that made it and they needed somebody we, like, we had just gone through, you had a deal,

Michael Jamin:

You probably had a deal at the time, an overall deal. Right.

Jonathan Fener:

I don't know if we had it like, you know what we did, I think we had just sold a pilot to like 20th Uhhuh . And it was like a very good experience, but we just, it just was one of those shows that like almost got there but didn't Yeah. But then, then they picked up all their other shows and they're like, oh, we're gonna pick up this show with these guys. And we had a good relationship with the development people that like, you know, maybe John and Josh can help with that. So that was awesome. That was, that was like, and I remember like, we cast whoever we want. Like we changed roles because we found, like I'd never seen Brett Gelman before and he came in and was so funny. We're like, we're putting him in this show somehow. He was easily 10 years older than everybody. Well, was supposed to be a coworker, Uhhuh, , ally Wong came in, we're like, Uhhuh, let's create a intern. But it was like, it, it, it was like, it was the first it was a good gig to get. And then from there we, we got a bunch more of those gigs to sort of

Michael Jamin:

Like, see, that's, that's a talent, because a lot of, I think sometimes when you have a no, a young creator will create a show. Then they assign a showrunner, and sometimes the showrunner's like, well, listen, my name's on this too, and I don't want this to have, I don't have a stink on me if this is terrible. So they kind of turn into what they want it to be. It doesn't sound like you did that. It sounds like you were very much trying to realize the vision of the person who created these shows, which is nice of you.

Jonathan Fener:

Yeah. I mean, I don't, maybe that's just the way that we are. I mean, I just feel like that's the fir like, and I'm, look, by the way, that's probably a good way to get the gig, is to go have lunch with them and go, listen your show, man. We're just here to help you carry the water from here to there. Right. And we know how to do it. And but that it's the truth. I mean, honestly, I like, I don't want it to be bad, but like, you know, and like, I'll tell you what, I think I'll give you my opinion, but also like, again, I don't know anybody that could ever do that, show that job alone. Like, it's, it's miserable and not mis, you know what I mean? And we we owe, and plus, you know, you could relate to this too, just being, I mean, being on a writing staff is collaborative anyway, but being in a writing partnership, you just really learn how to negotiate

Michael Jamin:

Mm-Hmm.

Jonathan Fener:

Compromise. Mm-Hmm. and talking it out. And, you know, single writers tend to be really, you know

Michael Jamin:

Yeah.

Jonathan Fener:

Hold onto their stuff cuz there's mm-hmm. Never any other counterpoints. So I feel like we have the right skillset for

Michael Jamin:

That. Yeah. There's also a sense of, there's so many decisions to be made. If I don't make this one decision, that's okay. I gotta make a million other decisions. So it's okay if I didn't, if I don't make this one decision, you know, there's a lot to do.

Jonathan Fener:

Yeah. I don't need to be in wardrobe. I always say that. I don't need to be, I don't need, I I you can do rack check. I don't need to do that.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, yeah. There's exactly, there's exactly, there's a ton. I, when we ran Marin, we, the the wardrobe people loved us cuz they chose us choices. And I go, what do you think, you know, well this one. And I said, well, why do you think that one, they gimme reason. I go, all right, sounds like you know what you're doing, . Sounds like you got a good idea there, so let's do what you say.

Jonathan Fener:

Yeah. Yeah. I mean how, how many episodes did you do of Maryland?

Michael Jamin:

We did four seasons. I, I want, it was probably around 50. Cuz each show, each season was, I don't know, whatever, 12, 13 or something like that. Uhhuh . So, yeah. But that was I c and that was a pleasure because it was low budget. They just leave you alone. It was wonderful. So, yeah.

Jonathan Fener:

And I mean, did you finally that it was, was it hard to produce? Because I mean, how big was your staff

Michael Jamin:

The first season? So that was a show that was created by this guy Duncan Birmingham. We didn't create it, but he wrote the pilot. He was a young writer. He wrote the presentation and then with Mark, so that season, the first season when they picked it up, it was Mark Marin, who's very good writer, but had no writing experience for sitcoms. He's a, you know, standup, this guy Duncan Birmingham, who was a, a young guy who they just, they they could exploit. So he had no experience and it was me and my partner, and that was it. So we, the ones with any real sitcom experience. And then, but then as each season one, we picked up a couple more writers and then we rounded it out. But but it was a great, it was a wonderful experience, but the budget was tiny. The budget was, it was like nothing. It was nothing. Yeah. And we shot each episode in two and a half days, so

Jonathan Fener:

Really?

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, it was, yeah. As long as someone's finger wasn't in front of the lens, we got it. , let's move it on. So yeah, that was, that was such a great experience. And, and, and no one remembers that. No one remembers, you know, like, hey, the show, it wasn't that perfectly lit. Yeah, that's okay. But people liked the writing. They like the acting. That's the important thing, you know. So what if the camera went like this a little bit ?

Jonathan Fener:

Right. my, yeah, my partner always was like, when you're like, he's like, they're doing laundry. They're paying their, they're paying their bills while they watch this. Like, they like the people. Oh,

Michael Jamin:

Oh, yeah.

Jonathan Fener:

Yeah. They're like, they're, they're, they're like, they're listening. They're half, you know, they're, they're not,

Michael Jamin:

Not even anymore. Now they're on their phones and watch. I mean, now they're really not watching the show. . He's Right. Cause like everyone, you know, Siebert, you say the same thing you'd say. Like Yeah, they're, they're reading People magazine, not any anymore. They're not, now they're on, they're watching the show and on TikTok and getting text messages, , they're not paying attention.

Jonathan Fener:

They're reading the live tweeting. Yeah. Of other people read, like

Michael Jamin:

Watching the show for them, so. Right. It's an odd time, but yeah. So what do you s so what do, what excites you then going forward? What, as we, as we wrap it up, what is your, like what excites you now?

Jonathan Fener:

In entertainment?

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. Or just, yeah. As a, as a writer. Yeah.

Jonathan Fener:

I still, I mean, I like what I always liked, honestly. Like, I feel like right now I want to, the thing that I want to do is I, I want to try new things, but I also, I know this is like, but but, but, but also I feel like as I get older, like you have to, you have to always write what's sort of like, I don't know, is like personal to you. Like, I don't know, this is, because then it sort of seems inauthentic. Right? but having said that, like I think that I, I would really like to get back into animation mm-hmm. , I feel, I feel like I, I know it's like, I feel like features, like, like I feel like weirdly streaming has opened that up. Mm-Hmm. a little bit too, cuz like, you know, it's hard to get a movie out in the theaters. I mean, especially now. Yeah. it's not a Marvel thing or something like that. So like, there might be like avenues to go with with streaming movies and stuff like that. But like, I don't know. That's, I mean, it's, it's, it's, I I feel like I don't have any, a good answer to that question because I still really, like, I, I still feel like I always have ideas, Uhhuh, but and, and honestly like more often than not, like I'm looking to collaborate with more people. Yeah. Different people, you know, because

Michael Jamin:

Not necessarily on air talent, but writers as well.

Jonathan Fener:

Other writers. Yeah. Yeah. I just feel like, you know, if you're lucky you have a long career and mm-hmm. a lot of different types of careers and, you know, my partner and I always said like we we've sort of had an open marriage a little because mm-hmm. , we started out together, we, and, you know, you work very closely with a writing partner and, and we worked together for many, many years and then we sort of split on staff for a while, and then we came back together mm-hmm. for a while, and then now we're separate again. But

Michael Jamin:

Was that hard for you when you're writing after you split to start writing alone? Let's say even on staff, cuz this is the first Okay. You usually, you have somebody to bounce an idea off of. Now you're, you're on, you know, you're looking at that blank page by yourself.

Jonathan Fener:

Yeah. Yeah. It's hard. Mm-Hmm. , it's hard to be in that. It's, it's, it's definitely hard. And I feel like I'm getting better at like, sort of reaching out to mm-hmm. other writers and just sort of like, can you look at, because it's like my wife can't hear it anymore, you know? Yeah. Like, go walk into the kitchen. It's like, would this character say that? She's like, I don't know, like, what are you talking about? So I have to, I I I just feel like you have to, I guess you, you learn to sort of like mute your ego a little bit mm-hmm. and just sort of like, let o let other, like, sometimes you just have to talk it out and, and that's what a partner was for, you know. Yeah. but I don't even know if I answered your question. That's

Michael Jamin:

Okay. We're just, we're we're chatting. What about, what about advice for aspiring writers? What do you, what do you tell them? Either about the craft or about the business?

Jonathan Fener:

I mean, to get in now

Michael Jamin:

Mm-Hmm. .

Jonathan Fener:

I think that starting out the, the best thing about now to me mm-hmm. , is that it seemed like in the beginning when we started, it was really all about like, what's the speck of the big show.

Michael Jamin:

Mm-Hmm. ,

Jonathan Fener:

Which there's a, there's an art to that, you know, because, you know, being on staff and being a good staff writer means that you are, you're using your talent to sort of like, mold it. You mold your voice to be this voice of the show. Exactly. Like, you're not there to have your own opinions. Like Right. Write for this character, write for this show. Right. And, but now I just feel like it's all about your own voice. It's all about creating something. You know, like, like a, a friend of mine has a, has a, like a young, young, much younger sister who's trying to break in and like, she wrote a script and I thought it was pretty good. Like, she had a specific voice and she's like, I, and she's like, got an actor friend. She lives in New York, and she's like, I was thinking of just like shooting 10 minutes of this. Mm-Hmm. like just getting a camera and this, that. I'm like, yes, do that. Right. Somebody will, you know, like the stuff that I wanna do now. Like some, I know it's time consuming, but it's like, you know, you gotta take that next step. You know, if you have an idea, write it. You know, and, and that's something that I, I didn't do enough of, I feel like back in the, in the day and mm-hmm. . Cause it was really like, not, not

Michael Jamin:

Part of the, it was, you didn't need to. I mean, it, it's, you're exactly right. Your job was not to have your own voice. Your voice, your job was to capture the voice of the existing show. And so you don't, you don't wanna have your voice. Your job is to blend in and, you know but now it's, it's very different. And I think it's actually harder to have your own, to figure out what your voice is. Have that confidence. Especially when you're young. You're like, I don't, what's my voice? You know?

Jonathan Fener:

That's a good point. No, I, I think that maybe there was some comfort in the, in the guidelines.

Michael Jamin:

I, I think so. Yeah. Like,

Jonathan Fener:

I, I've watched a hundred, you know, it's like I've seen friends a million times I can write.

Michael Jamin:

Right. You know what Joey's gonna gonna say. Right. You know, if Phoebe's gonna say when in this situation, cuz she's out there and, you know, but what's your voice? Like? I don't know. You know, you gotta find that. I used

Jonathan Fener:

To think, I remember just, I always used to think that too. Even, you know, it's like, you know, like an executive wants to, like, they don't know what the show, they don't know what these characters are. Right. They don't like,

Michael Jamin:

Right.

Jonathan Fener:

So, but then that's, you know, look, even before I was a writer, or while I was trying to be a writer, I was a reader. I worked at Sony and I did coverage.

Michael Jamin:

Right.

Jonathan Fener:

And I remember even then, that was another thing that actually, that's something that I also would recommend to, to people is to read.

Michael Jamin:

Right.

Jonathan Fener:

Read TV scripts, read good pilots. Read good screenplays, like read good writing. Mm-Hmm. Because it is really helpful. Right. some people don't like to do that cuz they feel like it's, but I don't, I don't know if I agree with that. I think yeah. That it's, it's, you, you can tell when something is like sort of economically written and mm-hmm. and that, and I remember even back then like, doing so much reading, I'm like, oh, I can tell that this is like a good writer or a good script or something like that.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. You, you can totally tell you. You would read, like, I remember reading like an old Larry Sanders, like, oh my God, this just feels, it just feels so real. It doesn't feel like it's contrived or forced. It's, yeah.

Jonathan Fener:

Yeah. That was our first, we wrote a Larry Sanders and I think we wrote, we wrote a curb, like really, really early

Michael Jamin:

Curb. Curb, curb was after Seinfeld.

Jonathan Fener:

Yeah. We wrote a curb like in ear, like, like Right, right. When it came out. Okay. Like in the early, because that, that show's been on forever.

Michael Jamin:

I didn't know, I don't remember how many years I thought Curb my Mind has only been on for 10 seasons. But you're saying it's not .

Jonathan Fener:

And it was actually, it was a great piece of advice that we got from like an agent. They were like, you should, because I remember at the time it's like, oh, the show isn't written. It's improvised. Right. But you should write a version of what you think it is. Right. that's the other thing too. Remember back in the day when like people would, like, after a while everybody would write their own, everyone was writing the same specs, you know? Right. The Drew Careys and the news radio. So like, you try and do something to get noticed. Like, I remember somebody wrote a really filthy full house.

Michael Jamin:

Right.

Jonathan Fener:

I don't even remember who it was.

Michael Jamin:

I don't remember that. Okay.

Jonathan Fener:

But it was like, oh, that at least is gonna get you noticed then that's that. You know what I mean? Like, honestly, like you have to, you, you gotta make some noise.

Michael Jamin:

Uhhuh,

Jonathan Fener:

I guess.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. And now it's hard to know exactly what to write. Yeah, yeah,

Jonathan Fener:

Yeah. We didn't solve it.

Michael Jamin:

No, we didn't, we didn't fix anything for anybody. But it was interesting hearing about your experience. I thought it was great that we ran into each other. Now we have a friend. No, no.

Jonathan Fener:

It, it was, you're your a name that I had heard of and I knew of your podcast and your tos and everything. And I, and I, I'll say this again, live on the air. Like I really it admire you sort of putting yourself out there and, and you know, sort of saying, you know, I have something, you know, I have all this experience and you know, you're, this is a good example of like mm-hmm. the things that people should be doing too. Because, you know, I listen to all these podcasts all the time and, and no matter how many stories you hear, it's always interesting. And especially if it's stuff that you can relate to and it's like, oh, I had that same experience but different and you know, you and I have Yeah. Have led some kind of parallel eyes

Michael Jamin:

And you hear patterns. I, I, at least I've picked up patterns. I dunno if people have listened to all my episodes. You're like, oh, it's not, when I hear the, you know, how did someone break in everyone's story is different. But you, there's similarities in terms of like, just not, they don't quit or they take whatever job is beneath them and they take one below it and they, you know, and they, you, you just get as close as you can to the job you want. And then hopefully talent, experience and, and luck will, will fall your way. You know, that's a dog barking. Yeah. All right, John, what a great conversation. Thank you so much for being on my show, my little show and sharing your, your, your experience and wisdom with all the, with everyone. That's it. My pleasure. Thank you again. This was, this was really fun. I really I enjoyed this very much. I, it was my pleasure, really. Thank you so much again. Don't go anywhere. Alright everyone, thank you so much. Until next week keep writing and remember we got lots of great resources on my, on my website, michaeljamin.com. You can sign up for my newsletter and all that stuff and all that free stuff. All right everyone, thanks so much. Until next week.

Phil Hudson:

This has been an episode of Screenwriters. Need to Hear This with Michael Jamin and Phil Hudson. If you're interested in learning more about writing, make sure you register for Michael's monthly [email protected]/webinar. If you found this podcast helpful, consider sharing it with a friend and leaving us a five star review on iTunes. For free screenwriting tips, follow Michael Jamin on social media @MichaelJaminwriter. You can follow Phil Hudson on social media @PhilaHudson. This podcast was produced by Phil Hudson. It was edited by Dallas Crane Music. By Ken Joseph. Until next time, keep writing.

In April I hosted a webinar titled "How To Tell A Great Story" where I discussed the meat and bones of storytelling, the fine line between a good story and a great story, and making your character's journey more emotionally compelling. This episode addresses questions you asked in our Q&A session that we didn't have time to answer. There's lots of great info here, make sure you watch.

Free Writing Webinar - https://michaeljamin.com/op/webinar-registration/

Michael's Online Screenwriting Course - https://michaeljamin.com/course

Free Screenwriting Lesson - https://michaeljamin.com/free

Join My Watchlist - https://michaeljamin.com/watchlist

Michael Jamin:

No, you're getting notes and you're getting paid for it. That's okay. But if you have your own side projects, do what you want. But even still, you still have to know how to write. You still need to know story structures, cuz you, at the end of the day, you, you have to entertain your audience and your audience has expectations and you just typing to pat yourself on the back may not be entertaining for them. You're listening to Screenwriters Need to Hear This with Michael Jamin. Hey everyone, this is Michael Jamin. I'm back with Phil Hudson. Welcome back, Phil.

Phil Hudson:

What up,

Michael Jamin:

What up? We're doing another q and a once a month. We do these live webinars and we get a ton of questions that we can't possibly get through all of them. So this is a special podcast episode where we are gonna answer some of those questions we didn't get to. And obviously. If anybody has any questions, continue sending us send 'em. You can send 'em to [email protected]. Or you could just, where else can they leave these questions

Phil Hudson:

Filled? You can just join the webinar. I mean, the, the webinar's probably the best place to get your questions answered right away. Oh, for

Michael Jamin:

Sure.

Phil Hudson:

You set up at michaeljamin.com/webinar.

Michael Jamin:

Everyone should be on that. Everyone should be on that. Everyone should be on my free weekly newsletter, Michaeljamin.com/watchlist. Yeah, lots of good stuff. So let's begin, Phil. Yeah,

Phil Hudson:

It's good. We'll have you back, get through. Good to be here. You've got some awesome interviews in the queue, by the way, like some of these people in here. Pretty exciting. So oh

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, we got some good episodes.

Phil Hudson:

Yeah. stick around, make sure you subscribe, leave a review, all that good stuff. But let's get into the questions. So this is from, just to be clear, this is from your April webinar, which was how to write a Great Story.

Michael Jamin:

Okay.

Phil Hudson:

Okay. John Rios. Michael, I tend to doubt myself when thinking of a new idea for a TV show. What makes a good idea for a story?

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. Well that's, that's the question. I mean, that's, honestly, there's no easy answer for that. Well, that I literally teach in our screenwriting course. And if you wanna learn that, it's michaeljamin.com/course. What you need to know is, is there enough meat on the bone? You have an idea and you go, well, is is there enough meat on that bone to turn it into a half hour of television, or 60 minutes or a 90 minute movie? And, and that's what we talk about. We talk about knowing, because everything's conflict, everything's emotional conflict between two characters. And so yeah, that's, that's, I wish there's an easy way to talk about that, but that is, that's the, the bulk of the the course , it's a long lesson. It's not a tip, unfortunately, but it's, it's identifying Is there enough emotional weight to your idea?

Phil Hudson:

Yeah. In the webinar we just finished about an hour ago, one of the things you brought up is that you don't need a great idea. You need a good idea. You just need to be able to tell it really well. Right, right. And that's the other piece of what the course covers, so, yeah. And the course is not open for enrollment at any time, by the way. Yeah. You, it's typically opens roughly the first weekend of the month, but not necessarily. So if you want to know more about that, you can go sign up for Michael's free lesson and you can be notified when the course sale is. The course is enroll or enrollment is open for the course.

Michael Jamin:

It's only open like three days out of the month or something like that. And, and, you know, we onboard everybody, then you gotta wait for next month. That's right. All right. More questions.

Phil Hudson:

Photojournalist sf. How are you able to rise above all the details and find the story?

Michael Jamin:

Oh, . Everyone wants to know. Everyone wants to know the chorus. Yeah, same question. Basically it's, it, yeah, same question. It's, it's identifying the emotional conflict between two characters. And once you can figure out how to do that, you can send your, cause the story is basically a journey. You're taking your characters on a journey and the journey, like, like all journeys have to be worth going on. Like, no one wants to take a journey to the garbage dump. When you get there, you're gonna be disappointed. Is there, what, is there enough to look at along the way? And when you get there, does it feel like you've arrived someplace? Because your characters, I say this a lot, it's like your character doesn't have to learn a lesson at the end of your story or your movie or script, whatever. Your character just has to be slightly different than they were at the beginning of your story.

Or else, why did you take 'em on this trip? If they're not changed in some small way, not necessarily for the better, they could be changed for the worse, but they have to be different. Or else, why did we go on this trip? You know? No, a journey. If you take a road trip, a road trip, if you live you know, in Los Angeles, you can't take a road trip to Los Angeles, that's not a road trip. You can't wind up in the same place you're at. You have have to take a road trip to Phoenix or someplace.

Phil Hudson:

Right. Interesting. Awesome. I get hung up on plot versus the story. Like, the obstacle could be physical or emotional, and sometimes this is the difference between plot and story, right?

Michael Jamin:

Well, the, the a plot is kind of what happens. You know, a plot is what your story's about. This story is about a guy who who goes box, who, you know, a boxer who gets in the ring and tries to win the fight. That's the plot. But the story is the emotional journey that that boxer goes on. It's, it's, you know, how is that, why are they different at the end? What, what, what were they fighting for? And they weren't fighting to win the fight. Who cares? What are they fighting for in real life? Is it so respect? Is it redemption? It's something deeper. So the plot is what it's about. And the story, I'm sorry, the, yeah, the story is what it's really about. It's deep down about, and again, this is what I talk about in the course, and you should go to michaeljamin.com/course and check that out.

Phil Hudson:

I think that a lot of people attack films and they say, oh, there's so many plot holes mm-hmm. . And I don't know that that's actually the problem with those films. It's the story sucked. And that's why you pay attention to the plot.

Michael Jamin:

I think you can. Yes. And I think, yeah, to some degree I agree with you. Like, and I think sometimes, you know, like a plot hole can be forgiven a little bit mm-hmm. . But if, if the story is worthwhile, you can you can say, well, why didn't they just pick up the phone? Like, I forgot. You know, why? I don't know. Obviously it's better if you don't have plot holes, but I think they can be forgiven if the stories is worth taking.

Phil Hudson:

Yeah, absolutely. Great. Hold me closer, Tony Danza one of the best screen names ever.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah.

Phil Hudson:

Do you find that the majority of writers you meet breaks stories with that much planning? And this is in reference to you discussing in the, in the webinar, all the steps involved, you know, the Yeah. The breaking the story, the one sheet, the outline, like all that stuff.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. The answer is absolutely. I'm talking about every single writer I've ever worked with. So it's not the majority, it's all of them. If you want to be a professional screenwriter, you better know how to break a story because you don't just start typing. There are some, like, I've read, like Greta Gerwig, you know, she's like, well, I'd just start typing. Well, okay, if you're Greta Gerwig, fine. But that process is very inefficient, and, and she admits it herself. She, like, she'll just start typing until she finds the story and then she goes back and undoes everything. That wasn't the story. And that's her process. That's fine. She's got her own time schedule, her own timeframe, and she's obviously very talented. I, I, I don't think it's good advice. It works for her, but I don't think it's good advice for a new writer. I don't, that's not how most writers, if you wanna be professional, you, you don't get to do that. You ha you're getting at notes every step of the way. You want to get people on board. You don't just go off and start writing. It's, that's just not how it's done.

Phil Hudson:

Yeah. And you have very strict timelines in a TV writer's room, especially where you can't get away with that. Yeah. Awesome. Claudia Corto, oh, excuse me. Lemme back up. So this person didn't have a name. How do you explain free writing? Is it the same as writing organically?

Michael Jamin:

I, I've never used the word free writing. I don't think I have. So I don't know what free writing is.

Phil Hudson:

I think it's just people sitting down and doing what Greta

Michael Jamin:

Did. Oh, like free brainin writing organic. Yeah, like, that's fine. If you wanna write for your look, all, any kind of writing is good, especially if you wanna put it in your diary or your journal. Yeah, great. Knock yourself out. The more you do the better. But when you, when you hope to sell it, if you're trying to sell something you, you really have to hit these certain points, plot points, and, you know, moments in, in a story that, that, that's caused that we call that story structure. So you don't just get to write, you don't get to just, you know, free brainin. But like I said, it works for Greta Gerberg. She's a great writer. But you know, I don't, I don't think it's great advice. So I'm not sure, you know, if someone says, Hey, my process is, I, I sit on top of a 80 foot telephone pole and I start writing, and that works for them. Great. I, I wouldn't recommend it for most people though, you know? Yeah.

Phil Hudson:

Yeah. I think stream of consciousness writing is what I was thinking it was. Right.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. Stream of, of conscious stream. Isn't that the most boring thing ever did Stream of conscious. I think that's, that's like telling someone, let me tell you about my dream I had last night. It doesn't make sense, but isn't it interesting? No. Only for you. I don't like hearing about anybody's dreams. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. It, nothing can be more boring. There's no reality to it. It doesn't make sense. And so stream of consciousness sounds, it just sounds terrible to me. It just sounds like a, an excuse to write lazily.

Phil Hudson:

It also feels like therapy and, and we advocate for a lot of, like, working on yourself and personal development on this podcast, but that feels like laborious therapy.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. Do it for yourself. It's self-indulgent though. Like, we don't want to hear it. Do it for yourself, cuz it helps you, but we don't want to hear it.

Phil Hudson:

Yeah. The second half of this question is, is that the same as writing organically? And I think that's something you talk about specifically. Do you wanna define that for people?

Michael Jamin:

Well, you know, organically, like, I'm, I'm not really sure what, or what are you getting at? Do you think I'm, what do you, what do you want me to talk about? So,

Phil Hudson:

Well, you talk about writing organically where it's like writing things that are true to you. Writing things that, you know, not necessarily like you're a plumber, be a plumber, but like, what are the life situations you've been in? What is that fight you had with your wife? What is it? Yeah. What is the pain you're feeling when you don't achieve your goals? And there's specificity in that organic life that, that speaks to people. I think it's more along those lines, right?

Michael Jamin:

If you feel insecure, if you're a generally insecure people person, then write about insecurity. Your character can have insecurity just because they're an astronaut. They may be an astronaut and you've never been an astronaut. That's okay. As long as the characters share those traits. You can give your astronaut, make them an insecure person. That that's, so you're writing from something that's from within. Another way to talk about organic writing, this gets back to that Greta Gerberg conversation. You know, when I write in my collection of personal essays, and I know Phil, I've talked to you about it a lot, which is I'll, I'll just take a memory and I'll start writing on my own and start until I discover the story. And often I won't discover the story until like the 20th draft. And then when I find the story, I go back and I toss out all the stuff that's not, and that's organic writing to me, that's writing very organically. I can do that though, because I know how to write and I know in my mind I've been doing it so long, it's just, it's, I wouldn't recommend it for, again, for a new writer as a way of, I wouldn't necessarily recommend that because yeah,

Phil Hudson:

You're, you're innately and unconsciously putting in specific moments and beats that have to be there to tell a story. Yeah. You're just, you're, you have the time because it's also a personal passion project to do that process. Yeah. Whereas if you're sitting in a writer's room or you're on assignment for a script, you got two weeks to turn in a draft, you don't have time to do that.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. Right. And everything's broken. Everything's agreed upon in the room. The story's broken, so all the writers know what the story is, and then a writer will go off after it's been beaten on the right, on the whiteboard, then they go off and write.

Phil Hudson:

So, and I imagine coming back with something different than that is a problem.

Michael Jamin:

Oh, you'll get fired if you go off the reservation and come back with something that everyone didn't talk about, you're, you'll, you'll get fired. Yep.

Phil Hudson:

Claudia Cordo, what do you do with your side story distractions as you're writing your main story?

Michael Jamin:

Oh, side story distractions. Like other projects. I wonder if you,

Phil Hudson:

I think what she's referring to is B plot, C plot, oh, B plot,

Michael Jamin:

Runners plot, stuff like that. Oh yeah. All that has to be broken as well. So there are no distractions. Everything, you know, if you have a main story, then you have subplots going on with other characters. This is par, particularly important film and television. You have these supporting characters on a TV show. Let's say you have five characters in your a story, your main stories between two characters. Well, you're paying these other three actors, they've gotta do something that week. So you give them a B story or a C story. And again, I teach all about, I teach us in the course this is what people should be signing up for. But you gotta have the, those characters do something and so you give them a slight story that might be one that has less emotional weight because you're paying these actors and the people at home wanna see the actors do something. So, yep. But again, the B story doesn't have the same, doesn't need to carry the same emotional weight as an A story.

Phil Hudson:

And very often the B story is informing the, a story from a different perspective. So the audience is learning lessons on both sides

Michael Jamin:

In a movie for sure. Yeah. Maybe less so in a TV show, but in a movie, yeah. You'll examine well I gotta think, what movie did I see where it was just about it was exactly speaks to that point. I'll have to think about that. Yeah. Okay.

Phil Hudson:

Andrew Spitzer, is the outline the same as a treatment or is that something else? And maybe it's be worthwhile for you to give people kind of the steps? Yeah, a writer, like the process that we alluded to earlier.

Michael Jamin:

So when you're on, on staff of a TV show, you'll break the story in the room with the showrunner. They'll spend a lot of time figuring out the beats. Could be the whole staff. You might spend a week breaking a story. So you know what the first act break is? The second act break is, you know all how the scenes go, basically. And then that writer will go off and often they, the way we do it, they'll write a, we call it a book report or a one pager. So then they, the writer will go off and then they write, but they write what they, what the story is in, it's in a nutshell. And what the emotional story is and what the plot is only for in about a page, for just to hand it back to the showrunner. If I'm running the show, I wanna read it so that they're clear.

I want to get it in writing so that they're clear on what the story is. Cuz even they may still screw that up. It's not uncommon. Then you get notes on that one pager. Often that's what we pitch to the network, say, Hey, this is what the story is. Are you cool with it? Sometimes they say no and then you gotta throw it out. Then that writer will go off and write an outline. Is an outline the same thing as a treatment? Yeah, pretty much Depends who you ask. In my opinion it is. But you know, treatment is really, I guess treatment is really more used for a film. I don't know. You know, but yeah, an outline will break an outline for like a half hour TV show. Might, may, you brought, might be like 12 pages. And then the script for that same TV show might be 27 pages. So you're constantly adding more and more detail and getting notes back from the show runner to make sure you're not veering off course to make sure everyone's on the same page. And so yeah. That, that's how that is done. It's, it's, it's, it's a long process. And again, that process is what I teach in the course.

Phil Hudson:

Awesome. Dennis Molina, how do you condense pipe into something useful in the script that moves the scene along? And maybe define pipe for the, those people who dunno?

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. Pipe is an industry turn we term that we use to describe exposition. So here, like, and you don't want your dialogue to be piy. So here's some piy dialogue that you've heard a million times. Kathy, you, my, you've been my Kathy, you're my sister. Why would you say such a thing? Right? Why is he telling Kathy that she's his sister? She knows that I actually saw, oh my God, I saw a line of terrible pipe in a movie I watched yesterday. It was so, it was so terrible. It was like, who would say that? So when you're writing, it really helps that to have your dialogue not be piy because it, it stands out like a, a sore of thumb and, and a way to do that and I teach this in the course I go into more detail again, is by having a third person in the scene who's new to all this. Who's that person over there? Oh, that's Kathy. She's my sister. So now it doesn't feel like pipe. Now you're just explaining it to a, to a new character. So that's one way to make a scene feel less piy.

Phil Hudson:

Yeah. How, how could you possibly talk to that person like that? That's my sister. Oh

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. Right, right. So that doesn't feel piy. That feels like dialogue.

Phil Hudson:

Yeah. Great. Julia Denton, have you ever gotten deep into writing a story and then had a brilliant idea that you think would've been much better and then decided to go back and change significant parts of your outline?

Michael Jamin:

No, because everything's, everything is agreed upon in the writer's room. So that would be, you know, if I have an idea, it better not be, if it can't be too far different. But if it is a little different, I might say to the showrunner, and as a matter of fact, you know, this happens all the time. You'll say, Hey, this scene that we talked about, I think it's a little better if we do it this way. And I know it's not what we agreed on, but what do you think? And then they say yes or no, but you would never just take it upon yourself to make something a giant change. So but if you're doing a project on your own yeah. Do whatever you want. I mean, you're, you're the boss.

Phil Hudson:

Yeah. I think defining what a professional writer is is one of those really important things that you've brought to the writer's ecosystem online. Yeah. I think a lot of us just envision it as this romantic, I sit at my keyboard and I write, and then I struggle and I toil over these words and then I receive praise and a big fat check to do that. Yeah. And really what it is, is sitting down in a room with a bunch of other people in a collaborative process mm-hmm. to execute the showrunner's vision or the studio's vision or the director's vision. It's not your

Michael Jamin:

Vision. Yeah, no. You're getting notes and you're getting paid for it. That's okay. But if you have your own side projects, do what you want. But even still, you still have to know how to write. You still need to know story structures cuz you, at the end of the day, you, you have to entertain your audience and your audience has expectations and you just typing to pat yourself on the back may not be entertaining for them. Yeah.

Phil Hudson:

My wife's making me watch the X-Files, so I've never watched it before. Yeah. And anytime I see Frank Spot show up as a writer, I'm like, oh, this is gonna be a good episode. Uhhuh and that, or, you know, some of the other mega showrunners who came out of that, Chris Carter's X-Files world. Yeah. and all of those people have shows that I love and they can scale again. Yeah. They, yep. They grew out of that writer's room doing exactly the process we're talking about, to then have the clout and ability as the showrunner to make those decisions. But it started with cutting their teeth, doing exactly what someone else wanted.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. A lot of people on Sopranos graduated out of that, have their own shows. So yeah. That's how it goes.

Michael Jamin:

Hey, it's Michael Jamin. If you like my videos and you want me to email them to you for free, join my watch list. Every Friday I send out my top three videos. These are for writers, actors, creative types. You can unsubscribe whenever you want. I'm not gonna spam you and it's absolutely free. Just go to michaeljamin.com/watchlist.

Phil Hudson:

Yeah,

Phil Hudson:

Let's, that wraps up the questions around story, but there are other sections that I have here. So one is, the next section is breaking in just another YouTube fan. How do you get the writer's assistant position?

Michael Jamin:

Yes. So writer's assistant is not an entry level position. And I, I'm not qual even though I'm a showrunner, I run shows, I'm not qualified to be a writer's assistant because you have to know certain things that I just don't know, which is how to the script district distribution protocols, there are certain shortcuts and on, on and final draft. I just don't know. Most, we usually use final Draft. And so to get that job, often you start off as a production assistant and then you cozy up to the current writer's assistant and ask them, Hey, teach me how to do your job in case you need to take a day off and work for whatever reason, and I need to fill in. And so I know that's what you, that's, I know that's how, that's what you've been doing lately.

Phil Hudson:

Yeah. Yeah. And that's how Hannah, who was our writer's assistant this season, Mike Rep got bummed to be a staff writer. And Hannah got bumped into be that position. And the sta he, even though he's the staff writer, he still held her hand and kind of walked her through how to do the job because she had a little less experience than needed, but she'd earned that. Right, right. By proving herself to the showrunners. And Kevin Heffernan talked her about her on your episode of the podcast Yeah. As someone who just volunteered their time and got in and did the work. So, and for me, yeah. I've had that happen where, you know, the writer's, the, the writer's assistant's wife has an issue and he has to leave, and then I get called into the room. Right? Yeah. Or someone's out and I have to step in. So very common that that happens right. From an assistant.

Michael Jamin:

So you'll be, if we ever get back to work, if the strike is over, I'm sure that'll be, you know, that'll be your next step if, if it's not writing full-time on whatever else you're doing. Sure.

Phil Hudson:

Yeah. Great. Ever, Winston, I'm a college senior and I graduate in December. My dream job is to make it into a writer's room. What can I do between now and December to help me get there?

Michael Jamin:

Right, right, right, right, right. Don't stop writing, just keep writing. I don't care what you're writing, just any short stories, plays, whatever that's what you, because you're, you know, you're not gonna fool anybody into, into hiring you as a, as a, as a good, as a writer. You need to be at that level. So you should be studying. If you don't wanna study for me, study from someone else, just make sure they know what they're talking about. You should be studying though the craft writing. And then of course, if you can move to LA the closer you can get to the job that you want physically, the better. So that's my recommendation.

Phil Hudson:

Solid. And hasn't changed in two years. Yes. We're approaching two years of doing the podcast.

Michael Jamin:

That's amazing. Yeah.

Phil Hudson:

Derrick Ziegler, for those of us producing our own web series as our calling card, do you have any advice for getting the right people to see our show? Or is it just best to post it on YouTube and hope for the best?

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, the, the, the right people are anybody. So if you make your web series and you start getting a million views per episode, the right people will find you because they're looking for, they are looking for you. Even if your show is terrible and you start getting a million views at prep episode, they'll find you because you got something, you're doing something right. Cuz you're getting, cuz you know, you know, the world must be, is paying attention to you. So even if you're, even if we think your show is terrible, well the world doesn't think it's terrible, so, you know, let's go. They must know something. So yeah that's what I would do. Start, start posting it and see, get some feedback and see what's working, what's not working, but a webinar. But that's a perfectly good way.

Phil Hudson:

And the last webinar that you did well, I guess not the last by time this drops, but your May webinar was on this topic right? Is how to get people to attend your, you know, attend your live event or watch your your stuff. Yeah. Something along those lines. But that's available too. If you're interested for like a small fee, you can go buy that replay on michaeljamin.com/shop.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. I should make that. I, I should clarify. So we do a free monthly webinar, you and I and it's free for anybody who attends. And then if you miss it, we send you a free replay. It's good for 24 hours and then if you still miss that, then you can purchase it on my website for a small fee. But you know, it's, you get too wax at it for free. So.

Phil Hudson:

Yep. Sabrina g how do you know when you're ready to show your script to someone? Michael said he learned a lot about writing on his first job. So how good does, does a sample really need to be for a first time writer?

Michael Jamin:

Easy. So you give it to your, your mom or your friend or give it to someone, a trusted loved one, rip off the title page and give it to them and say, Hey, what do you think of this? And then they're gonna say, what do I know I'm not in the business? And then you're gonna say, write down the script I'm writing for you. You're gonna say, no, no, I just wanna know when you get to the end of every page, do you want to turn the page and find out what happens next? Or do you not care? Does it feel, and at the end of page 20, does it feel like I've given you a gift or a homework assignment and that's how you know, and 99% of the time, you know, when they read it, give 'em a week or so to read it and they come back to you and you say, well, do you think? And they're gonna say, eh, it's okay. Or they're gonna say, well I like this part cuz they're gonna, they're gonna wanna be nice. Well I thought this character was good, right? No, no. Did you wanna turn the page? And if the answer is anything less than glowing, you don't have anything to show. You have to look, keep working on your craft and until people beg you to read your next piece, cuz they liked it so much.

Phil Hudson:

Yeah, yeah. I got that feedback from a writer on that script we did. But I'm also not anticipating that to be the feedback I get on my next piece when I show it to people. Yeah. Because I know that piece is gonna need work after I get feedback from people to make it to the point where they say, holy shit, that was good. Yeah. Which is what the writer told me, which is like, oh, cool. More validation for that one. Still gotta do it seven more times. Yeah. So it's,

Michael Jamin:

That's how it's, that's the business.

Phil Hudson:

Ryan Greenwood. What different roles makes someone good in a room?

Michael Jamin:

Well, mo you know, there are really no roles anymore. You know, I think you have to be well-balanced. Back in the day when writers staffs were much larger, let's say on a sitcom, let's say on Roseanne, they had a big budget. And so you could have on that show they had, most of the writers were standard writers, but they had room for a handful, two or three, whatever com standup comics who were just funny people. And so they probably could, maybe they couldn't write a script, but they could contribute because they were just so funny. But today, staffs have gotten much smaller and there's really no place to hide now, I feel. So you are expected to know how to be a very well-rounded writer and, and know all aspects of how to break a story, how to write a story, how to write an outline, how to, how to do all that.

Phil Hudson:

Yeah. For some advice for everybody just starting out or feels that's very daunting. How to eat an elephant one bite at a time.

Michael Jamin:

One bite at a time. Yeah. And

Phil Hudson:

The structure, story structure being the most important thing you can learn.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, yeah. For sure. For sure.

Phil Hudson:

Then the characters, then the dialogue, you get all that stuff later and the characters lead to the diving, it becomes much easier. It builds upon itself. Yes. As you get stronger and stronger.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. It's, it that's a good point, Phil, because learning story structure takes away demystifies some of it. And it takes away, when you write a story, there's so much, you have so many freaking choices you can make as you tell your story. But by learning story structure, you get to eliminate some of those choices. Mm-Hmm. . And you go, okay, I know I have to do, I know I need to do these things now knowing that now I'm free, this actually frees you up from having to make a billion other choices. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. It's, it being limited actually helps you.

Phil Hudson:

Yeah, absolutely. Being put a box is not a bad thing.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. Yeah.

Phil Hudson:

All right. Moving on to collaboration. We have one question on that from Megan Woodard. How do you become more open to collaboration when you're used to writing independently?

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. You have to find someone that you, you mesh with someone who you have the same sensibilities with. And I have a partner of 30 years, so we, you know, I know what that's like. It's like a marriage. But it, it's actually good for you, especially if you plan, if you wanna work in Hollywood in any, you're gonna be collaborating on everything. Whether it's a movie, youre gonna get notes from the director of the studio, exec, whatever. That's a collaboration. If you're in tv, you're gonna be getting notes from the showrunner and the rest of the writing staff. So get this outta your head that it's your vision. Unless you wanna shoot it yourself and make your own movies, which is fine, do that. But everywhere else, if you want, if someone else is putting out the money, you are gonna be collaborating. So you really need to learn how to set your ego aside mm-hmm. and be willing to you know, listen to somebody else. And to be honest, when I work with my partner, if he's got a better idea, great. Let's do hit. I don't really care cuz it, you know, we have to get the work done. If he's got the idea perfect, that means that one last idea I gotta think of. So, and he feels the same way.

Phil Hudson:

Yeah. I think it would behoove everybody listening to read how to Win Friends and to Influence People by Dale Carnegie. Yeah. That's a classic's been in the lexicon for over a hundred years mm-hmm. because it just tells you like, Hey, here's how not to be a jerk, or here not to become off abrasive, and here's how to interact with people in a way Yeah. That serves the ultimate thing that matters, which is the goal. Yeah. And your goal is their goal, and if it's not, then you're in the wrong place.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. So, yeah.

Phil Hudson:

All right. Moving on to structure and just a few more questions here. Michael Paolo Ruvalcaba. What is a beat sheet?

Michael Jamin:

Well, yeah. Beat sheet is another word for, it depends, it really depends what your showrunner wants, but it's not quite an outline, it's just a rough outline. So if an outline might be 12 pages, like, I'll say it again. So if a script is 27 pages and the outline is 12 pages, a beat sheet might be five. You know, so it's just, it's just the, the layers of detail that your boss wants. If they just want a beat sheet, you'll say, well, how many pages do you want the beat sheet? And then they'll tell you. So

Phil Hudson:

We we have a section in the course where I pitch an idea and then I do an outline, and then I write a draft. I do all that, and you gimme notes. And I turned in an outline that was like 22 pages long , you're like, bro. And just to remind everybody, I'd been through the course and film school Yeah. And I still screwed it up. So

Michael Jamin:

Well, like, you don't need to put that much detail, like, because, you know,

Phil Hudson:

So, so you learn as you go. And I'm just put, I'm just calling myself out just so everyone has, can breathe a little to know it's okay that you don't get it right the first time. It's actually expected and it's just practice, practice, practice. I definitely didn't make that mistake again.

Michael Jamin:

You know what though? But sometimes when we sell a show or pilot and they say, Hey, turn in an outline or turn in a treatment or whatever, we'll say to them, what do you want it to look like? Send us an example of the treatment that you liked and then we'll, we'll copy that. We'll, you know, we'll do our version of that so that you'll give them what they want. It's really a tool. It it's often a tool that they want. So you like, well, how do you want it? We'll give you what you want.

Phil Hudson:

Do you find they actually give you an example? Yeah.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. Sometimes they do. Yeah.

Phil Hudson:

I've heard other people like, ah, nevermind. It's okay. Like, they just, they don't have one. It's just a step.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. Sometimes they don't, sometimes it's a word that they have. Then you, then you do, you give 'em what you wanna give them. Yeah.

Phil Hudson:

Got it. Scott Kuski, what is the difference between breaking and beats, which you might have just addressed, but

Michael Jamin:

Breaking and what?

Phil Hudson:

Breaking and beats. Beats. Like when you're breaking the story versus beats.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. The, the beats are the, the beats of the story. So when you, you wanna break the story first and that will give you the beats of the story.

Phil Hudson:

Yeah. David Tillery, what would you say that a story bible is a detailed outline.

Michael Jamin:

I don't even know. Like a Bible. It's, it like, I don't know why people, you don't need to know the answer to this question. A Bible basically will say what the, the series is often the Bible is written after the series has been written. So, so like, we're on season three of some show, and you tell the writer system, Hey, put together the Bible. That means they'll just write an outline of every single episode, assemble it into the Bible. But it's already been written. I think some people think they have to come up with a Bible beforehand to sell the show. And I'm telling you this, you, you listeners don't need to do any of this. No one's gonna buy your show, your, your series. They're not buying from you. You need to write one great episode of television, not a hundred. Just write one. It'll be a writing sample which will help you get work. That's the whole point of, so don't stop, stop thinking about you're gonna sell your TV show. No one's gonna buy your TV show. Yeah. We need to know if you had, we need to know if you can write, let's focus on just writing one. You know how hard it's to write one good episode of tv. Do that

Phil Hudson:

On my end. In Hollywood, I've been given samples by producers of story bibles and they're just pitch decks. Like they don't even know what they are. So the way that writers think of story Bibles, which is what you described versus what they're talking about, they're just different things. And I know of a producer who worked for multiple seasons in reality TV and went to pitch a docudrama, and those people were interested and then asked for them to make a Bible, but it was a step in the sales process. They didn't need it before they had interest.

Michael Jamin:

Everyone uses it wrong. And you don't need, you don't, you don't need to know the answer any of this.

Phil Hudson:

All right. Magic Misha, what about writing a script from a novel? Do you need an out, do you need to outline that?

Michael Jamin:

Writing a script from a novel?

Phil Hudson:

Yeah. From it. And I could think you could take this two ways. I wrote a novel and I want to then adapt my own novel to be a script or Right. I'm taking a novel I love and I want to write a spec script of that novel. And I'm assuming they don't own the IP or control. Have an option. Yeah.

Michael Jamin:

Either way, you need to break it. And I would recommend you break it into three acts either way. Because a three act structure just feels right. It just, when you tell a story, it feels right if it's told in three acts. And so yeah, if you have a novel, I wouldn't start writing until, you know, what your act breaks are and what your midpoint of two is. And all the beats that I teach you in my course, I would do all of that, whether it's your original novel or whether you are adapting someone else's work. Because not all, by the way, not all books are, are really meant for, for movies. They don't, you know, they're just not, sometimes they're just too internal. Not enough happens. And so they, they wouldn't make for a good movie. They're not visual enough.

Phil Hudson:

Yeah. Yep. And I think we should also address too, that the course is for everything, not just tv, but it applies to anything story related. So novels, that's a common question. People get playwrights. Mm-Hmm. , I think you said everything but a dinner menu. Yeah.

Michael Jamin:

Right. It won't teach you that. But anything where there's a story is being told. That's what we teach. We teach you stories. Stories. Perfect.

Phil Hudson:

All right. Five more questions here. Yeah. Tino sto currently work at one of the major studios in a non-production function. Would you suggest leveraging my current situation to pivot my career as a writer slash showrunner?

Michael Jamin:

Well, don't even think about being a showrunner. Just think about being a writer first. And in terms of leveraging, I don't know how you're gonna leverage anything. You know, just because you work on the lot and you work next door to TV shows, you might as well be in the other side of the country. So you need to get closer to the job you want. And so just because you work in sales or advertising or whatever that is, you are, you might as well be in, in another planet. So I don't know how you're gonna leverage other than maybe your boss has connections. You know, obviously these people, we all work in the same industry. So people might, you, people you work with must know other people that you that, so you should use those contacts to, hey, if you wanna be a writer, have a conversation with another writer or a showrunner or, but get, get a job on the production staff of a TV show, either as a PA or writer, writer's, pa, writers assistant, anything get, get close. But in terms of leveraging, if you know something about ad sales and you work on the Fox lot, so what, you know, we're all a TV writer, so I don't, you can't leverage that knowledge.

Phil Hudson:

Yeah. I think that's a great clarification for one of the common questions you get, which is, do I need to live in LA to be a writer? And you say you need to get closer to the job that you want. And in this case you're saying even if you're in LA just working adjacent to the job that you want isn't close enough.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. You might as well be. And a guy, I, I was gonna make a post about this on TikTok cuz the guy sent me a very heartbreaking, I won't answer that. He's like, I work in, I think he said he works on the fox lot, I don't remember in ad sales or something like that, and or sports. He worked in sports, but he wanted to be a writer. And he's been doing it for like 20 years and he feels like he's close. But so far yeah, you are so close, but you, you might as well be on the other side of the planet because you're not close enough to the job you want. Just because we park in the same parking structure, it doesn't give you an advantage. Right.

Phil Hudson:

All right. Denise Jack Row, does story structure apply to reality TV shows, like unscripted shows or docuseries as well?

Michael Jamin:

I've never written on a reality show, quote unquote. I've never done that. But they do have act breaks, you know, so I do notice that. And they do tend to, they do tend to shoehorn a structure in there, but I'm not the best guy to talk about that since I've never worked in a reality show.

Phil Hudson:

Right. Which is why a lot of people, when you interview 'em after, say that's not how that happened, that's shot out of order. Mm-Hmm. Like, that's taken outta context cuz they're building drama and climax and all these things.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah.

Phil Hudson:

All right. Just three general questions. Dominic. Papas, how do I write satire about a real person without being offensive?

Michael Jamin:

Well, first change their name. That's, that's the best thing. You know, change their name in all the details so that whoever reads it won't sue you or be offended. But more to that, I think more to the point, you know, I feel I plug my, my, my book all the time. I call, I, I, it's called the paper orchestra, although I may be changing the title, but anyway, it's a collection of personal essays and all the stories are happened to me. I can write about them because they're my stories. I couldn't write a story about, you know, someone else in my life because it didn't happen to me, it happened to them. It's not my story to tell. So that's what I would do. I I would lampoon yourself before I lampoon somebody else. And, and in my stories, I'm always the hardest on me. I I'm harder on me than I am on any of the other real characters in my life.

Phil Hudson:

Yeah. Retro night eight. After writing a short screenplay, is it a good idea to have a table read with some friends to get feedback?

Michael Jamin:

For sure. For sure. The only thing is you know, you're gonna have people reading, acting it out, and you wanna make sure they're decent actress. But it, it help, it'll help all around. And if you have your table read, and let's say you have three people in your script, it, it helps to have a couple people in your audience who are not reading it. You'll know that you can sense when the, the air gets sucked out of the room when people start yawning, when people are start looking around because they, they're bored. It could be a, it's an incredibly helpful tool, so if you can arrange it, do it.

Phil Hudson:

Yeah. And, and that might apply to feature or television plays as well. Yeah. Not necessarily short screen plays.

Michael Jamin:

Anything. Yeah.

Phil Hudson:

Jane Fleming, are there any follow up questions? If your reader said only I liked the part, can you pull anything else out of them? Or do you just walk away with, I gotta rewrite this.

Michael Jamin:

You gotta wa you gotta rewrite it. That's it. You know, I, I like this part. That's

Phil Hudson:

Right. That's the polite. I didn't like this.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. I didn't like all. Yeah. Yeah. I don't, I don't know what you do with that other than you know, start all over.

Phil Hudson:

Yeah. Cool. That's it. Those are the questions from our April q and a. A lot of the questions had already been previously answered on other podcast episodes, so go back and reference those if you didn't. Don't feel your question was answered. Michael. Was there anything else you wanna go over with your listeners before we wrap it up?

Michael Jamin:

That's it. Thank you for listening. We got a lot of free resources on my website at michaeljamin.com. So obviously you know about the podcast, but we, I got a free screenwriting lesson. I got a free webinar. We do once a month free downloads for sample scripts, all of it. Just go to michaeljamin.com and, and, and get, we got a free newsletter that goes out once a week. You'll find it all at michaeljamin.com.

Phil Hudson:

Yeah. There's literally a tab that says free stuff. It's a good place to hang out. And the free lesson is a huge underside. And also make sure you sign up for the webinar. This is a great place to get your questions answered live. Yeah. Provide a lot of value, but you'll also be able to interact with a bunch of other writers who are giving up time on their Saturday morning to learn from a showrunner, which to me, looking from the outside in, I think that's the strongest signal you can send to those around you and yourself that you are a pro and wanna be treated like a pro. Mm-Hmm. . Right. Beyond that, you have to sit down and write. You gotta do

Michael Jamin:

The work, Phil. You get you raised a good point. We also just, we give some other free stuff away during our webinars, which is an incentive to listen. Yeah. Yep.

Phil Hudson:

Everybody walks away with something even if you don't win. One of the big things.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah.

Phil Hudson:

So, great. Michael, thank you so much for your time. Appreciate it as always the feedback. Thank you. The insights all very generous. And, and I think we're all grateful for 'em.

Michael Jamin:

Thank you, Phil. Thank you for always helping me out with everything.

Phil Hudson:

Pleasure. My pleasure, man. Appreciate your your friendship and, and mentorship. Yeah. For everybody else who's listening, thank you so much for spending some time with us. And if you don't mind, just do us a favor, go to iTunes and leave us a review.

Michael Jamin:

Alright everyone, keep writing, stay tuned for more episodes. Thanks so much.

Phil Hudson:

Asta Lavista

Michael Jamin:

Asta.

Phil Hudson:

This has been an episode of Screenwriters. Need to hear this with Michael Jamin and Phil Hudson. If you're interested in learning more about writing, make sure you register for Michael's monthly [email protected] slash webinar. If you found this podcast helpful, consider sharing it with a friend and leaving us a five star review on iTunes. For free screenwriting tips, follow Michael Jamin on social media @MichaelJaminwriter. You can follow Phil Hudson on social media @PhilaHudson. This podcast was produced by Phil Hudson. It was edited by Dallas Crane Music. By Ken Joseph. Until next time, keep writing.

Phil LaMarr is an actor known for being one of the original cast members of MadTV, Pulp Fiction, and his voice acting roles in Samurai Jack, Futurama, Beavis and Butthead, Family Guy, Teen Titans Go! and a host of other animated series.

Phil Lamarr on IMDB - https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0482851/

Phil Lamarr on Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/phillamarr/

Phil Lamarr on TikTok - https://www.tiktok.com/@phillamarr

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Phil LaMarr:

I was developing an animated show based on a friend of mine's web comic called Goblins. Okay. And my partner, Matt King and I, we are both performers, but we adapted the comic into a script. And I called a bunch of my voice actor friends, cuz we were, we were gonna make a trailer, you know, to bring these, you know, comic characters to life Yeah. In animation. And it was funny cuz Matt and I are actors. We had, you know, written the script and we'd acted out these scenes. And so in our heads, we, we thought we knew exactly how they'd sound. But then we brought in amazing Billy West, Maurice LaMarr. Mm-Hmm. , Jim Cummings. Mm-Hmm. Steve Bloom, Jennifer. And it was funny because when they performed the scenes we had written, they took it to a whole other level. Right. Beyond what existed in our, in our heads. Right. Like, oh my God, they made it so much better than I even imagined it could be.

Michael Jamin:

You're listening to Screenwriters Need to Hear This with Michael Jamin.

Hey everyone, it's Michael Jamin. Welcome back to Screenwriters. Need to hear this. I, another, another. Cool. I got another cool episode. I, I was so excited about this. I, I tri over my own words. I am here with actor writer Phil LaMarr and this guy. All right. So I'm on his IMDB page cuz he going through his credits. Phil, I'm not joking. It's taking me too long to scroll through IMD,B to get through all your credits. It's nuts how much you work. But, so I'm gonna give you real fast an introduction and then we'll talk more about, what're gonna talk about but okay. So this guy does a lot of, a ton of voiceovers. I guess I think we met on King of the Hill and I know we worked together on Glenn Glenn Martin DDS, but fu you know, him from Futurama.

From Beavis and Butthead family guy the Great North. All every single adult animated show, a ton of kids shows Star Bob's Burgers. That's adult, of course. Rick and Morty Bob Burgers, Bob's Burger's movie as well. I mean, I'm going through all your stuff here. It's nuts. You were a writer performer on Mad TV for many years. Mm-Hmm. . And I think the pro, I'm sorry to say this, but the, the coolest role that everyone knows you, that you maybe you get recognized most from. Right. We, you know what it is, is you were, you were in Pulp Fiction and you had your head blown off in the back of the car. And I remember watching like, oh my God, they killed Phil

Phil LaMarr:

.

Michael Jamin:

I mean, how awesome was that role? Oh man. But so Phil, thank you for doing this. Welcome, welcome to this. I want to talk all about your amazing career. But now tell me, so how did you get into acting? When did you decide you wanted to be an actor?

Phil LaMarr:

Well, it's funny because there are a couple of double steps in terms of how I started being an actor. And when I decided to be an actor and when I got into voiceover, both my first time performing was in eighth grade. My school was doing a production of a book that I loved. I didn't consider myself a performer. Right. It was the phantom toll booth. Right. And there's this little character towards the end of the Phantom toll booth. The senses taker who will take your sense of purpose. Your sense of duty, but he can't take your sense of humor. Right. And I wanted that part. So that's why I went and auditioned. But I wound up getting cast as one of the leads.

Michael Jamin:

Wow. Okay. And

Phil LaMarr:

Opened a show alone on stage under a spotlight doing a two minute monologue.

Michael Jamin:

Okay. And

Phil LaMarr:

It flipped a switch in my head. I'm like, oh, I love this. You were, that's what, so I started, you know, being an actor because I liked to book

Michael Jamin:

. Right. But then, but okay. But it's one thing to be acting in as a kid in eighth grade and then to commit your career to it. What, what, what happened next?

Phil LaMarr:

Well, and it's funny because I didn't consider that a career or what I was doing. It's just, it's fun. Yeah. I get to play well, and also I went to an all boys private school. Yeah. So the time you got to see girls was when you did a play

Michael Jamin:

. Okay. That makes, now you're, makes sense. Now we know why you're being an actor, .

Phil LaMarr:

And I wound up graduating and I applied to colleges that had, you know, drama programs, Northwestern nor Carnegie Mellon, Yale University. But I wound up deciding not to go to Carnegie Mellon and I went to Yale. I was like, no, no, I just want to go to college. And I did not decide to pursue acting as a career. I just majored in English. It was on the flight back home to LA I said, you know what, maybe I should pursue this acting thing. I mean, I enjoy it. And you know, some people say I'm pretty good at it. I mean, I either gotta do it now or wait till my mid forties when I have a midlife crisis. Yes.

Michael Jamin:

But this is Yale undergrad. Yes. Yale's really not for the grad school of the school of drama. But you

Phil LaMarr:

Go back to thing. Cause when you were an actor and you say you went to Yale, people assume, oh, like Moral Streep and Henry Wiggler. It's like, no, no. I didn't know that

Michael Jamin:

. But so after you got outta college and you got outta, we went to Yale and there was some pressure on you to are they Princeton over there? We're gonna continue, we'll continue our, we'll set aside our differences long enough to have this conversation. But so, but after college you're like, okay, I got a big fancy Yale degree and I'm gonna become an actor.

Phil LaMarr:

Right. And, you know, had I decided to be a comedy writer with a Harvard degree, that would've been

Michael Jamin:

Yes. That would make sense.

Phil LaMarr:

A career path that made sense. Right. As a Yale, there were no famous Yales as writers or producers or anything. There were a handful of, you know, drama school actors. Right. But again, I didn't go to that drama school. So I'm like, okay.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. There's no connect. People talk about the connections. No, there's no connection. Just because you, there's no inroad. Just cuz you went to Yale, you know, to No,

Phil LaMarr:

Yeah. No. The the only famous undergraduate actors at that time in the eighties were two women who were famous before they came to Yale, Jennifer Beals and Jodi Foster.

Michael Jamin:

Right. Exactly. Exactly. All right. So then you made this commitment to, or this, this leap. How long your parents must have been thrilled , how long before you started getting work and how did you start getting work, getting work?

Phil LaMarr:

Well, and, and this is another one of the double steps, Uhhuh I, when I made this decision, I already had my SAG card.

Michael Jamin:

How did you get that?

Phil LaMarr:

Because back in high school, a friend of my mother's worked for NBC Uhhuh. And I think my mother had dragged her to see a couple of my plays. And so she said, Hey, we're doing this cartoon and we're gonna use real kids for the kids' voices. Which back in the eighties was a rare thing. Yeah. And she asked me to, to come in and audition for it. And I got a job on the Mr. T cartoon in the mid eighties.

Michael Jamin:

Oh, wow. And

Phil LaMarr:

That got me my union card. Now I did not, again, did not consider this a career path. I it was just a cool summer job.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. Now, the thing is, cause I hear this a lot. People say to me, yeah, I, I can do a million voices and you could do literally a million voices. I, how do I get into you know, voice acting? And it's like, they don't seem to put the connection that it's not enough that you do voices. You have to know how to act. You have to be a trained, you have to, you know, know, be if you're trained or even better. But you have to know how to perform and act. And so yeah.

Phil LaMarr:

That's, that's what I always tell people who ask me that question. I say, the first thing you need to know is voice acting the term is a misnomer because the acting comes before the voice.

Michael Jamin:

Yes. Yes.

Phil LaMarr:

You know, that's why you have amazing people like Cree Summer, who has a really distinctive speaking voice, but she has the acting ability. Right. To make every character completely different and real. It's the same thing like, you know, a a movie star, it's the same face, but it's always a different character.

Michael Jamin:

But there's something else that you bring, and I say this because you are a consummate pro. You are truly a pro. It's well for what you bring to that other actors, that non-voice actors, I guess, I don't know what you would call 'em, but have, but what I'm directing a voiceover actor, sometimes if they haven't done avo, a lot of voice acting, they don't realize they're using their face or their body . And, and you say, no, no, no. I, I see you're acting the part I see you're playing mad, but I have to hear it in my ear. And so I don't look at them when I'm directing. I wanna hear it. And Right. And so to talk about that a little bit.

Phil LaMarr:

Yes, yes. I remember, cuz I started out, you know, even though I had that job in high school, I did not consider it a voice acting career. It was just a, a goofy summer job on a cartoon that nobody I knew watched. So I came home after college and pursued on camera acting and stage mm-hmm. . And so a few years later, actually it was after a several years of Mad TV where we did Claymation pieces and it got me doing multiple characters on mic as opposed to just multiple characters on camera, which I was also doing on Mad tv. And I remember I decided to actively pursue the voice acting thing. Cuz at this point, you know, in the post, you know, early nineties era when cable blew up, voice acting became a job. Right. You know, cuz when we were kids, it was just something that six guys that Mel Blanc and five other dudes Right.

Voiced every cartoon of our childhood. Right. You know, Mel Blanc, dos Butler, you know, that was it. But in the nineties, once Nickelodeon had 24 hours of children's programming, there was a lot more cartoon voices. And so like, oh, this could be a path now. And I remember one of my early sessions, I fell into my on camera acting face, face acting mm-hmm. . And they said, okay, Phil, stop. Try it again. Do that line again. Angrier, I did it again. They said, hold on, we're gonna play them both back. And they sounded exactly the same. And I realized what you just said. Right. Oh my God, I just made an angrier face.

Michael Jamin:

Right.

Phil LaMarr:

And that's one of the, you know, skills of voice acting the same way that you have singers, singers can, you know, put forth feeling or fun or whatever through their voice.

Michael Jamin:

Right.

Phil LaMarr:

You know, dancers do it through their bodies.

Michael Jamin:

Right.

Phil LaMarr:

You know. But

Michael Jamin:

When you perform, let's say you're doing something on camera, how much thought do you give? Do you, is it, is it just second nature to go, okay, now I can use the rest of my body? Or how much thought do you have to go in between different, you know skill sets, I guess, you know?

Phil LaMarr:

Well, the, the good thing is, you know, you do have to, you know, get a switch in your head because when you're on stage, it's the exact same job bringing this script to life. But you have to do it with different tools. Right, right. And the same thing when you're doing it on camera. And the same thing when you're doing it on microphone. You have to, you have to gauge. Okay. Cuz you know, you read the script, you see the character, you embody it. Yeah. But then it's how do you communicate it to the audience?

Michael Jamin:

Right,

Phil LaMarr:

Right. You know, and it's funny because with voice acting, you know, we learned to run the character through our, our ears. You know, when you see in the old days, you see, you know, announcers doing this. Do you know what that is about? No.

Michael Jamin:

What what is that?

Phil LaMarr:

It's because all of us, you know, regular people hear our voices from inside our heads. Right. We're not hearing what other people hear. But when you do this, you are channeling your voice.

Michael Jamin:

That's what

Phil LaMarr:

Mouth into your ear. So you hear what your voice sounds like outside your head.

Michael Jamin:

Oh, I see. I, that's so funny. I thought they were stopping their ear, but they're not. They're just re redirecting the voice Yeah. Into their ear. Yes. Oh wow. I had no idea.

Phil LaMarr:

So you can hear the subtlety, you know, because if, if you don't do something with your teeth, you don't hear that inside your head. Yeah. It's only what people hear. But that's something you might want with a character. Right. You know, I always, when I teach workshops, I always try to tell people, like, there are things we hear. There's, it's the same thing with your face. Mm-Hmm. when you want to, you know, express anger. You don't just do your face flat. You, you know. And it's the same thing with if, if there's something about a character, let's say I'm doing this character, but then I see the drawing and the guy's got a big beard. Oh, well let me make him sound, let me make him sound beier.

Michael Jamin:

Right. Right.

Phil LaMarr:

Which isn't necessarily true, just growing a beard doesn't change your voice

Michael Jamin:

Uhhuh.

Phil LaMarr:

But there are things that when we hear something, we get the sense of it.

Michael Jamin:

Right. Do you have a preference now, Kami? Cuz do you have a preference? You work so much in voice acting, but do you have a, do you prefer that overlap? You know, like on camera?

Phil LaMarr:

No, it's funny cuz you know, at Comic-Con, people will ask, what's your, you walk in so many media, what's your favorite? And the truth of the matter is, and this is what I tell them, it's not about the media, it's about the quality.

Michael Jamin:

Quality. The writing or, or what Yes.

Phil LaMarr:

Uhhuh Well, the, the, the quality of the writing, the quality of the directing, the quality of the experience. Because to me, the, the cartoon Samurai Jack, which is I consider a work of art that has more in common with pulp fiction. Right. Than it does with, you know, pound puppies or some like goofy little Saturday morning cartoon that's more focused on selling toys than on actually putting out story.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. Right, right. But in terms of voice, a I mean, you don't have to get into hair and makeup. You don't have to memorize anything. And that's a whole nother skill as well. Memorizing the, the, the text.

Phil LaMarr:

Well, but that, that's actually harder because when you work on stage or on camera mm-hmm. , you get time to rehearse.

Michael Jamin:

Right.

Phil LaMarr:

You get to practice with a director helping guide you, your people, someone watching you, and you build the character over time. And then you don't have to make it work till the camera says, till they say action.

Michael Jamin:

Right.

Phil LaMarr:

But when you're doing voiceover, you're handed a sheet of paper, you're reading words off a page, and you have to bring those to life instantly.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, that's exactly. Now do you, cuz when we work together on, on Glen, well we did King Hill first, but on Glen Martin, just so people know you didn't audition, we just, we call you up. Hey, we book you Theor agent, and you come in, you show up, you, you got the job, and you show up. And I remember approaching you saying, okay, Phyllis, the character, I remember the character's name was Rasmus, and the only thing you knew about him was that he had a milky eye. He was like seventies. He had a milky eye. And I go, what voices did you bring ? And you, you, you gave me like three different voices. And I think I said that one a little more gravelly and boom, that was it. You jumped right into it. Exactly. That was it. You're ready to go. . And that was the benefit of direction you got go .

Phil LaMarr:

Right. See, and we did that in a minute and a half.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah.

Phil LaMarr:

Had we been working on a movie, I would've had to go in for wardrobe, had them try on seven different outfits, had them send you the pictures, , you know, over two weeks. Right. While I was memorizing all the lines for us to come to that conclusion.

Michael Jamin:

But on most of the voiceover judo, is that how it is? It's just basically they book you for the day and you know, unless you're a regular, they just book you, you come on in and you spend an hour or two, and then that's it. Is that how it works for you? Mostly?

Phil LaMarr:

Well, ho hopefully. I mean, most of the time you get the script ahead of time, so you get to read the story, know the context. Right. But that's just one episode. You don't have the entire, you know, arc of the story. You know, don't know everything about the, you know, if you're playing the villain about the, the hero. So you learn most of it when you come into the session,

Michael Jamin:

But then there's another thing that you have to bring to the table, which is a whole, like, you okay, you're an excellent actor, but you also have the, the, when you do these voices, they don't sound like they're coming from you. Like, they sound like they're coming from 10 different people. And so the, how do you, like how do you approach that? How do you making voices that don't sound anything like the, any, any other voice that you do.

Phil LaMarr:

Well, it varies. I mean, there are, it's funny because now over the years, you know, people will bring up some old character. And I realize, okay, that sounds a little similar to that other one. But I realize it's not about, I used to think when I was younger, starting in voice acting, I used to think it was about no, no. Every voice should not sound anything like the other one. Right. You know? But I realize it's more about embodying the character. And the thing is, you know, these characters are all different. So I need them to, I want them to sound different.

Michael Jamin:

Right. I don't mean like, like when I first got the King of the Hill, I was shocked when you hear the voices that you've been watching the show forever, and then you see the actress playing, you go, whoa, that voice is coming from that person. That, that doesn't sound anything close to their, like, there's a transformation that you're able to do with your voice by, like, that's a different skill. I mean, forget about even, yes, I know embodying the character, but you're really playing with your vocal chords in a way that almost seems impossible to someone like me.

Phil LaMarr:

Oh, thank you. Well, I mean, in, it's, it's a, it's a skill set that not everybody has. Like I said, some people just like when on Samurai Jack, I worked with Mako Iwatsu Uhhuh, you know, an older Japanese actor who was an icon. He had starred in movies, starred on Broadway, you know, his name was above the title on a Stephen Sondheim musical. Right. But he had a very distinctive, you know, heavy, very textured, heavily accented voice. And I figured, okay, he's just doing his voice. And I remember there was one episode where they cast him as a secondary character mm-hmm. in the episode. And I remember thinking to myself, oh, Jesus, what are they doing? Uhhuh, his voice is so dis. I mean, that's like casting the rock in two characters in a movie. Right. You know, like, nobody's gonna get fooled. But he blew my mind and taught me a masterclass because what he did was, he did not completely transform his voice, but he acted the second character from a completely different perspective. You know, Lowe's dead, you know, complete, he performed it completely differently than he performed Aku the villain, Uhhuh . And I, and when you watch the episode, you can't tell it's him.

Michael Jamin:

You can Right. You can't tell.

Phil LaMarr:

Now, part of that has to do with the art, you know, because you're change your changing your voice, but they're also changing the drawing.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. That, that's true. But I wonder how much work do you on your own at home? Like, how much do you think about other voice? Do you pra you go, do you hear a voice and you go, Hey, that's an interesting thing. Maybe I should, you know, do you practice at all? Do you, I don't know. Are you, are you constantly trying to invent new, new voices for yourself?

Phil LaMarr:

Well, I'm, I'm not a singer, but I've always had an ear. Right. For speech. It, I do a lot of impressions. Uhhuh, , you know, comedically and sometimes just job wise. Actually, weirdly, 10th grade, my second year of acting, I got the part in our, one of our high school plays. We did a production of Play It again, Sam.

Michael Jamin:

Okay.

Phil LaMarr:

And in 10th grade, I played Humphrey Bogart .

Michael Jamin:

Okay.

Phil LaMarr:

And I spent the entire production trying to do my best impression of Humphrey Bogart. If that plane leaves and you are not on it, you'll regret it. Maybe not today, maybe not tomorrow, but soon. And for the rest of your life. And so I watched a lot of, you know, videotapes of Humphrey Bogart. And I, and I also had to learn how to do that impression and project

Michael Jamin:

It Right.

Phil LaMarr:

In a, in a theater cuz there was no microphone. But I think maybe that helped start me right on the, you know, aping People's Voices thing. Which, when I started doing sketch comedy Right. I leaned into that too. Oh, I'm gonna do a Michael Jackson sketch. You know?

Michael Jamin:

Right. Cause you, so how is that you're talking about, so that, that brings us to Mad tv. So there goes your, I dunno, how, how did you get that that audition? What did you bring, what did you bring to that audition, you know, for yourself?

Phil LaMarr:

Well, I, when I was in college I was part of a improv comedy group that started and I loved it, you know, having been taught that the, you know, the key to drama is conflict, but then being introduced in your late teens, early twenties to this concept of Yes.

Michael Jamin:

And, and yes. And yeah.

Phil LaMarr:

You know, improv is collaborative theater, make your partner look good. Right. Work together, you know, all of this very positive energy. It's like, huh, wow. This isn't just about performance. This is a great life philosophy. Yeah. So after graduation, and I came home to LA and I started taking classes at the Groundlings Theater mm-hmm. , the sketch, comedy and improv group. And, and I did that not for the career, but because I wanted improv back in my life.

Michael Jamin:

Right.

Phil LaMarr:

And doing improv that led me into sketch comedy and writing.

Michael Jamin:

Right.

Phil LaMarr:

Because that's what the ground wings do. It's like, okay, that's a great improv. Write it down.

Michael Jamin:

Right. .

Phil LaMarr:

Yeah. Now do that character again. Come up with another scene for him.

Michael Jamin:

And so that's what you, you brought to the audition, like what, three different characters or something?

Phil LaMarr:

Y well, by the time Mad TV came around, I had been doing sitcoms, you know, from the early nineties to the mid nineties. This was 95. Right. So I went to audition for mad TV and the people at Fox had seen me guest on a bunch of shows. Right. And in fact, I went to audition for Mad TV in what they call second place because I had done a pilot for Fox right before Mad. So it's funny because I went in there thinking, no, this pilot is gonna, is amazing. We're gonna be the new Barney Miller. Alright, fine agents, I'll go for this sketch thing, whatever. I've been doing Sketch for six years, but whatever. And so I went in and they said, okay, bring in some, some of your characters.

Michael Jamin:

What Century is calling ah, . That's your phone from 1970, right?

Phil LaMarr:

?

Michael Jamin:

Or is it an alarm clock?

Phil LaMarr:

Ah, no, it's, I forgot to

Michael Jamin:

What's your phone? It's your iPhone.

Phil LaMarr:

It's my agent calling. Oh, you, you don't need to talk to them.

Michael Jamin:

That's Hollywood.

Phil LaMarr:

Yes.

Michael Jamin:

I can't believe your agent actually calls you. Mine doesn't call .

Phil LaMarr:

Alright, let me, let me go back.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah.

Michael Jamin:

We're gonna put all this in. This is all funny. .

Phil LaMarr:

Well anyway, I went to audition for Mad TV having done several years at the Groundlings and having been voted into the main company of the Groundlings, alongside Jennifer Coolidge. So you

Michael Jamin:

Were perform Oh, so you were, that's great. So you were performing regularly on stage. Yeah. Okay.

Phil LaMarr:

So, so sketch comedy was solidly in my back

Michael Jamin:

Pocket. Yeah.

Phil LaMarr:

And, you know, I'd been, you know, I'd finally started making a living as an actor. I didn't have to do my day job, you know, just doing guest spots and whatnot. And I went in there without any sense of desperation. I don't need this.

Michael Jamin:

Right. I've

Phil LaMarr:

Already got this pilot. And they said, okay, bring us your characters and a couple of impressions and we'll show you a couple of our sketches. You know, so there were three steps to each audition, Uhhuh. And it's funny because later after I got the job, I talked to the showrunner and he said, oh man, you were so relaxed. We loved it.

Michael Jamin:

Oh wow.

Phil LaMarr:

You know, cuz I remember when we had a, a callback and there was somebody from the studio. This woman was sitting there like this. And I said, oh, I'm sorry. Did I wake you

Michael Jamin:

? And then wow. I mean, good for you. And then, but what became of that pilot, it didn't go to series

Phil LaMarr:

The other. No.

Michael Jamin:

Boy, had you known that ? I

Phil LaMarr:

Know. Well, and when we, when we got the call back from Mad tv, I'm like, what the heck? And might have said, yeah. Yeah. somebody at Fox said, don't worry about the second position.

Michael Jamin:

Right. Oh wow. Wow. . So, right. So you did that for a number of years. And then, and what, what along the way, when did pulp Fiction occur during this?

Phil LaMarr:

Actually I did Pulp Fiction before Mad tv.

Michael Jamin:

Okay.

Phil LaMarr:

It's funny cuz the first episode of Mad TV had a Pulp fiction parody in it. And

Michael Jamin:

Did you play yourself?

Phil LaMarr:

Yes. They pitched me playing myself. Oh

Michael Jamin:

My God, it was so fun. I mean it's such a classic role. I mean, do, do you, and does, do people want to talk to you about that all the time?

Phil LaMarr:

Not, not really. What I, I find that people only bring up Pulp Fiction around the time when a new Tarantino movie comes out.

Michael Jamin:

Okay.

Phil LaMarr:

But I mean, there are some people who, you know, are big fans of it. But the funniest thing is there will be a friend, somebody I've known for several years, but it's the first time they've watched Pulp Fiction since we met.

Michael Jamin:

Right. Oh

Phil LaMarr:

My God, Phil. I didn't realize that was you.

Michael Jamin:

That's so great. I mean, so Right. Just to remind people again. So that was a scene was, it was Samuel Jackson and and John Travolta. They, yes. I guess the, the pla that plot line was a bunch of like straight-laced kind of college kids, kind of up, you know, they, you know, good kids who probably made one bad decision. Right. But they weren't troublemakers. They were good kids. And then they owed money and then, and then I guess they, you know, so they shoot, I guess they come into the apartment Right. And they they wind up shooting up the place and they take you, I guess they, they're gonna take you to the big guy, you're hostage and then he, you're in the back of the car and they got a gun trained on you and it hits a bump and they accidentally blow your head off . Right.

Phil LaMarr:

Well, well actually, the backstory that Quent and I talked about is that cuz my character is Marvin, he's the kid who gets his brains blown out in the back of the car. Right. but we decided that the story was Jules Uhhuh knew somebody who knew Marvin and arranged for Marvin to, that's why Marvin gets up and opens the door.

Michael Jamin:

Okay. And

Phil LaMarr:

Lets them in. He's on their side.

Michael Jamin:

Oh, is that right? Is that, I should watch that again. I don't, I didn't pick that up at all.

Phil LaMarr:

And so he's not, they're not taking him as a hostage. Cause actually, Sam's like, how many, because John asked him how many are in there? It's like, well, there's, oh,

Michael Jamin:

There's

Phil LaMarr:

Five plus our guy.

Michael Jamin:

Oh, I gotta watch that again. I missed that. Okay. It's been a while. Okay. So,

Phil LaMarr:

So the idea is that Jules knew somebody who knew one of the kids that took Marcellus briefcase. So he made a connection and was like, okay, we figured it out. He's our man inside is gonna open the door for us at 7 45. We're gonna come in, we're gonna get the briefcase. But of course, in my head, the idea is that Marvin didn't realize they were gonna kill everybody.

Michael Jamin:

Right. Right. He thought they

Phil LaMarr:

Were just gonna take the briefcase.

Michael Jamin:

Right. So he's

Phil LaMarr:

Freaked out.

Michael Jamin:

And so how many days is, were you, how many days of a shoot is that for you? Is that a week or what?

Phil LaMarr:

I spent about two weeks. There was the car scene and the apartment scene. But the, the most ironic thing was I shot my scene after they had shot the Harvey Kittel cleaning up my body scene.

Michael Jamin:

Right. So when

Phil LaMarr:

I came onto set, everybody was looking at me like they recognized me because they had been see, looking at me dead for two months.

Michael Jamin:

. But how? Wait, but but when you say looking at you dead was, were there photos or something or what? No, no.

Phil LaMarr:

They built, they built a dummy. The dummy. Oh. Because there's a se there's a sequence where the Harvey guy tell character comes to clean up Yeah. And then carry the body out of the car into the Tarantino character's apartment. You

Michael Jamin:

Know, that must been freaky. So

Phil LaMarr:

Everybody been looking at this body in the trunk body, you know, and then when I walked on, they were like, it's, it's the same thing of like, when you walk into a room and you forget you're wearing a name tag.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. Did you know how great that movie was gonna be at the time? Yes. I mean, you, you can tell. How can you tell? I

Phil LaMarr:

Couldn't tell how successful it was gonna be because, you know, reservoir Dogs was really good. Right. But it wasn't, you know, it was a big indie

Michael Jamin:

Movie. Yes.

Phil LaMarr:

Right. But when you read the script for Pulp Fiction

Michael Jamin:

Uhhuh,

Phil LaMarr:

It leapt off the page.

Michael Jamin:

Right.

Phil LaMarr:

It's funny because like, when I went to audition for it, after meeting Quentin Tarantino, we did a Groundlings improv show.

Michael Jamin:

Oh, is that right? Because

Phil LaMarr:

He's, he was friends with Julia Sweeney, who was a Groundlings alum. Right. And she invited him to come do a show. I was in the cast. Right. And when he was casting pulp Fiction, he was thinking about Marvin. He told the casting lady, Hey, there's this black guy at the Groundling, he's go find him.

Michael Jamin:

Right.

Phil LaMarr:

And I remember preparing for the audition, reading through the scene three times. It jumped into my, I w I had it, I was off book by the time I memorized. Because the way it's written, even though it's not everyday life, every line follows exactly what the one before it would say. And it feels natural, even though it is such a heightened world he's created.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. He really is. I mean, you know, he's a master with, with words. He doesn't, does he, he doesn't, I can't imagine allow much improv. I mean, it seems like he knows what he wants, right?

Phil LaMarr:

Oh, yeah. No, no, no. Yeah. The, the script is like a Rosetta Stone. It is carved, yes. Actually, the, the only two things that changed in the script were one a line of Samuel Jackson's character about pork

Michael Jamin:

Uhhuh ,

Phil LaMarr:

Because originally they're talking about a pig and he is like, oh, that's the Kerry Grant of pigs. And Sam was like, no, Manam my guy. I don't think this guy would ever think Kerry Grant was cool.

Michael Jamin:

Right. So they

Phil LaMarr:

Changed it to the, the reference to the the at Albert show

Michael Jamin:

Oh, oh green Acres. Green Acres, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Right.

Phil LaMarr:

Yeah. It's like the pig on Green Acres

Michael Jamin:

. And,

Phil LaMarr:

And the o and the other moment that changed from the script to what, what we shot was because of what a thought that John had.

Michael Jamin:

Uhhuh Gun

Phil LaMarr:

Travolta. Yeah. Oh. Because, because this was a low budget indie movie. They made this movie with all those stars for only 8 million.

Michael Jamin:

Are you kidding me? Really?

Phil LaMarr:

Yeah. And part of that saving money was we rehearsed the entire movie on stage before we started shooting. Right. And I remember going to a sound stage at, at cul in Culver City on Sony and meeting John Travolta and Samuel L. Jackson for the first time in rehearsal.

Michael Jamin:

Right.

Phil LaMarr:

And I remember walking in there and it's like, Quinn's like, oh, hey Phil, this John Sam, this is Phil. And John Tra goes, oh geez, this is a guy. I had to kill this guy. The eyes is gonna hate me.

Michael Jamin:

That's a pretty good Travolta sound just like him. . Oh, thanks.

Phil LaMarr:

And he just, I thought he was just joking. But eventually he talked to Quintin. Cuz originally in the back of the car, the gun is supposed to go off accidentally. Yeah. And shoot Marvin in the throat.

Michael Jamin:

Okay.

Phil LaMarr:

And then he sits there g gurgling while they go back and forth bantering, oh, dad, what are we gonna do? Right. Well, we can't take him to the hospital. Well, I don't have nobody in the valley. Well, alright. Put him out of his misery. When I, on the count of three, I'll hit the horn. And so John's character was supposed to shoot me the second time on, and John said, no, no. Quentin Quinn. Quinn. If my character kills this kid on purpose, it's gonna ha people won't, won't like him. And he was right. It would've negatively affected his sequence with Umma Thurman.

Michael Jamin:

That's absolutely right. But do you think he was, Travolta was interested in protecting the character or protecting himself as an actor? You know, like how people saw him? What do you think?

Phil LaMarr:

I think it was, he had a connection to the audience, which I guess was mostly through him, but also through the character. Because I mean, I mean, I guess, you know, Quintin's could have just said No, no, the character's just, he's a nasty, you know, junky. Yes. He does nasty stuff. But I think John was like, no, no, no. This whole sequence with the girl, he's not nasty.

Michael Jamin:

Right. So, right. I see. And and

Phil LaMarr:

Quintin agreed with John Yeah. His take on the character.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. That's so interesting.

Phil LaMarr:

Isn't that

Michael Jamin:

Wild? Yeah, that is. See, it's so funny listening to you, you can so hear like how thoughtful you are about acting, how mu how much, how it's not, it's a craft, it's a, you know, you, I really hear that from you, how much you put how passionate you are about the craft of acne. Not just being on stage, not just you know, doing voices, but the craft of it. You know? Exactly. Yeah. How do, do you miss, or do you get a chance to perform on stage a lot? Because that was your original love

Phil LaMarr:

Mm-Hmm. . Yes. Thankfully. I'm still holding on to my performance foundation. My friend Jordan Black, who is another Groundlings alum Uhhuh about what, 12 years ago now, created a group. And we do a show monthly live on stage, an improv show at the Groundlings Okay. Called the Black Version

Michael Jamin:

Uhhuh. It's,

Phil LaMarr:

It's an all black cast, and we take a suggestion from the audience of a classic or iconic motion picture, and then we improv the black version of it. But

Michael Jamin:

What if you're not familiar with the, the classic?

Phil LaMarr:

Well that's the tricky part is our director Karen Mariama mm-hmm. , who was one of my teachers at the Groundlings and is now one of my peers, has an encyclopedic knowledge mm-hmm. , she can take a movie from the black and white era and know the entire structure or something that dropped that dropped on Netflix last week. And she knows everything

Michael Jamin:

But you, but if you don't know it

Phil LaMarr:

Well what we do, what she does is she, she, as the director, she guides the scenes Uhhuh . Okay. Alright. Phil, you are gonna play this, you know, like let's say we're doing the black version of Princess Bride. Phil, you'll, you are this you know, swordsman who is incredibly skilled audience, what do you think his name? Okay. In Negro Montoya, that's your name.

Michael Jamin:

That's funny. And

Phil LaMarr:

Like she'll assign the characters Right. And then guide us from scene to scene. But, you know, our choices, you know like when we did the black version of Princess Bride, it was called her Mama and them, and Prince Humperdink was Prince Humpty Hump. Right. You know, and sometimes the choices will change the, the, you know line, line of the story. But she tries to keep us, you know, take us through the iconic scenes.

Michael Jamin:

Right. And this is once a month you do this.

Phil LaMarr:

Yes.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. That's a big commitment.

Phil LaMarr:

Yeah. And for 12 years. Yeah.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. I mean, you must, you probably took a break during the pandemic for a little bit. Yes,

Phil LaMarr:

Yes, yes, we did.

Michael Jamin:

But Wow.

Phil LaMarr:

And recently we've you know, we've built an audience and a reputation and we've started booking on the road. We've we've played the Kennedy Center in Washington DC twice now.

Michael Jamin:

So you take it on the, and, and how were you able to sell tickets on the road? I mean, so easily.

Phil LaMarr:

It's, I I think it's, it's the, the venues and also you know, somewhat just the, those of us in the group. I mean, Jordan was a writer on SNL and part of the guest cast on community Cedric Yarborough from Reno 9 1 1, and tons of other shows. So

Michael Jamin:

Just your name. Just your name. So it's kind of just your names people like, Hey, we want, you know, we recognize these names, we wanna go see it. If you, you know this.

Phil LaMarr:

Yeah. I, I mean, I'm, I'm not exactly sure how we managed to sell out, you

Michael Jamin:

Know? That's amazing. All over

Phil LaMarr:

The

Michael Jamin:

Place. That sounds like a lot of fun.

Phil LaMarr:

It's so much fun.

Michael Jamin:

Hey, it's Michael Jamin. If you like my videos and you want me to email them to you for free, join my watch list. Every Friday I send out my top three videos. These are for writers, actors, creative types. You can unsubscribe whenever you want. I'm not gonna spam you and it's absolutely free. Just go to michaeljamin.com/watchlist.

Wow. I mean, is there a limit to how much you can, I mean, just organizing that to get everyone to get the time off. I mean, that's gotta be logistically

Phil LaMarr:

Gotta be hard. Yeah. The, the tours aren't that we don't do them that often because, you know, Gary Anthony Williams from, you know, Malcolm in the Middle and stuff, everybody in our cast works a lot. Yeah. So we can really only guarantee the show once a month. Right. but sometimes when we tour, not everybody goes

Michael Jamin:

Because Yeah, you have to, I mean, if someone books apart and you're shooting that at night, what, what are you gonna do? That's the way. Right.

Phil LaMarr:

Or you or you have to fly to Vancouver for six months.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. Right. Right. And that's part of, that's, I mean, that's part of the, the plus of, of the do for you for doing a lot of voice acting is that, you know, you probably get to lead a pretty sane in life if for an actor it's, it can be very hard, you know, being on

Phil LaMarr:

Their Well, and, and it's also one of the wonderful things about the progress that has come since we started the show, because part of the reason Jordan created the show is because those of us in the improv world, you know, who are people of color, oftentimes spent the majority of our time being the one.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah.

Phil LaMarr:

But over the years, the, you know, the numbers, the diversity in the improv world, you know, expanded, it used to be a very suburban art form.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah.

Phil LaMarr:

But now, you know, I I I credit this mostly to Wayne Brady doing whose lives in anyway.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. Right. Yeah. And so that really opens up more opportunities and more of what Yeah. That, that's, that's interesting that, you know, that really has changed a lot. How, how have you seen it change your opportunities in the past, I don't know, whatever, 20 years, 30 years, you know, however long?

Phil LaMarr:

Well, it's, it's, it's changed be in a lot of ways. One, when I got voted into the Groundlings in 1992, I was the first black person to get voted into the company in its 18 years of existence.

Michael Jamin:

You're kidding me. Yeah. That's crazy. That's crazy.

Phil LaMarr:

And now the pool of, you know black people, you know, who are Groundlings has expanded. It's not just one every 18 years.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. Right. But, and in terms of more, you know, more opportunities for you even, you know, I mean, everything's, everything's really opened up for you. Right. I mean, I imagine Well,

Phil LaMarr:

Well, because we have, you know, the, those of us in entertainment have expanded. Yeah. You know, what we consider will work. You know, I was talking my son just graduated from NYU and one of his classmates is the son of the woman who directed the woman king. Okay. At Viola Davis, you know. Right. Action movie. Right. And I remember watching and thinking, oh my god, when I was 18, no studio in the world.

Michael Jamin:

Right. Would touch that. Right. Would've

Phil LaMarr:

Would've, you know, green lit Yeah. A action movie, you know, about black women.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. Right.

Phil LaMarr:

And, and the fact that, you know, it's out there now and is just another big movie. It's, it's not considered, you know you know, a once in a lifetime thing anymore. That's the progress and the fact that we have, you know, middle-aged women mm-hmm. leads of s of TV series. Yeah. You know, back in the old days, the only lead of a TV series was one beautiful person or one famous, you know, hilarious person. Yeah. But now they've opened it up.

Michael Jamin:

I wonder, is your son planning to going through the arts now that he graduated from nyu?

Phil LaMarr:

Yes. Yes. He's, he's musician. He oh, writes and sings and dances and raps and produces, and he's part of the Clive Davis recorded music program where they teach them music and the music business.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. Wow.

Phil LaMarr:

One of his teachers was Clive Davis's daughter. Wow. Who's a lawyer.

Michael Jamin:

And do, I mean, it's, but it's, the music is different from what you do. I wonder, I wonder if you're able to, does it all feel like, I don't know how to help , you know? Yeah.

Phil LaMarr:

Yeah. There's a lot of that uhhuh

Michael Jamin:

Like,

Phil LaMarr:

Dad dead. Because when your kid goes into, you know, show business, you think, well, I've been in show business for 40 years, like, you haven't been in the music business. I'm like, you're right.

Michael Jamin:

That's true. So interesting. Wow. Wow. And, and, and so what about, I guess, you know what's next for you? Is you just, is it more of the same? Is there more, well, actually I know you have a pilot that you, that you were, you're working on, you know, you're getting into the writing side of the business. Yes.

Phil LaMarr:

More so. Yes. And that actually over the last couple of years has been a, a slight shift you know, having been performing. Yeah. You know, for so long now, since the eighties. I've also, and I've also been writing since the nineties when I started at the Groundlings. Right. I was writing sketches and I wrote on Mad tv. But just recently, earlier in this year, I took a job as a professional writer on a television show for the first time.

Michael Jamin:

Right.

Phil LaMarr:

And it was pretty wild to have 30 years of sitcoms under your belt and then suddenly see it from a completely different angle.

Michael Jamin:

And what, and what was your impression of that?

Phil LaMarr:

It, it was wild to cuz like you were talking about the way I look at acting and break it down. Yeah. And, you know, look at all the subtle distinctions. I had never looked at, you know, TV writing that way. Okay. But to suddenly be in a room with people who look at who see it that way for decades, you're like, oh wow. How do I feel like a rookie at 56?

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. Right. And so there's a lot of catching, a lot of catching up little Yeah. You know, that's so, and, and are, are you enjoying it as much or as much as you thought? Or what do you think?

Phil LaMarr:

Well it, the challenge part was, was a little bit, you know, tough. Yeah. But it was great to be working on a really good show with great, talented people and to be learning something new. It's like, yeah. Oh, like for me, like when we would write sketches at the Groundlings Uhhuh, you didn't think about anything about like, well, beginning, middle, and end. Right. Three minutes.

Michael Jamin:

Right, right.

Phil LaMarr:

You know, but now you have to think about, you know, character arcs and the, you know, okay, well if you introduce the character's father, we have to think about their entire family. Is the mother still a alive? You're like, oh, right. When you write a sketch, you don't have to think about,

Michael Jamin:

You don't think about any of that. Right. And when you, and when you're acting the part you, you know. Yeah. Yeah. And so it's, it's so interesting cause I always say like, acting and writing are really, they're two sides of the same coin. It really helps to study both whatever you want to do, study both. Exactly. it's all, and so yeah, that, that finding that emotional arc and, you know, it's all, it's all new for you, but yeah. I wonder, you know, but you're enjoying it.

Phil LaMarr:

Well and, and working alongside, I mean, cuz there were people who, you know, one guy at show run Will and Grace, another guy worked on Arrested Development. I mean like, you know, one guy was showrunner on five other shows to, to watch how they mm-hmm. . Cause for me, I would like, Hey, I would just pitch out a joke. I'm just gonna say something I think is funny. Right. But they had this like s you know, Superman MicroVision where they could take that joke and see Yeah. How it could affect the mm-hmm. the entire scene, the entire episode and the entire season.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. Right. It's like, where does that, but off

Phil LaMarr:

The top of their head.

Michael Jamin:

Right. And where does it go? Where does that moment go into the script, into the, you know, is it act one or is it Act three? And so that Yes.

Phil LaMarr:

Yeah. That yes. I mean I'm sure you have that, that x-ray vision too. Yeah. Where you can look at a script and see the act structure Yeah. And you know, and or just even the structure of just the scene. Yeah. Like what does this character, where do they start and where do they finish?

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, that's right. Well we were, we ran a show for Mark Maron for four years and you know, he was one of the writers in it and he would pitch an idea, cause I wanna say this, and then we'd put up Neck one and then I remember at one point , we were talking about it and we said, mark, I don't think this can go in Act one. Is it okay if we put a neck three? And he'd say, oh, I don't care where you put it is. Right. long as in the script,

Phil LaMarr:

I'm just thinking about what the character would say.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. That Right. I was like, was like, oh, that's a relief. I thought you were gonna get mad for, you know, you didn't care about that. So funny.

Phil LaMarr:

Right. Yeah. Just cuz as performers we are not looking at the app structure.

Michael Jamin:

Right, right. You know,

Phil LaMarr:

Most of us, I, I may imagine there are some people who do like, well I wanna build up from act two to act three, you know? Yeah. But most of us don't. We're just, what is the guy feeling in this scene right now?

Michael Jamin:

Right. And how to get to that, the truth of that, how difficult is it for you to make yourself vulnerable like that on stage to like, to go there, you know, whatever, maybe it's crying or whatever it is. How difficult it is for you just to allow yourself to go there?

Phil LaMarr:

Well, it's not necessarily easy. It's definitely something that I had to, you know, a skill set to build Uhhuh . You know, I was not one of those people when I started acting who could make themselves cry on cue, Uhhuh

Michael Jamin:

,

Phil LaMarr:

You know. But I remember I had to do a scene on a, a Steven Boko show called Philly. And it's like, okay, well this character is really, you know, emotionally, you know, I gotta figure out how to make sure I'm putting that out there. Right. So I thought about something sad and let it, you know, something different than what the character was thinking about mm-hmm. . But it's again, like, you know, with the voice acting like what sounds bey you also have to think about your face, what looks Yeah. Sorrowful and how do you make yourself look sorrowful. Right. You know, although one of the things that helped me learn where to, to try to go was working on Pulp Fiction with Samuel L. Jackson.

Michael Jamin:

What he what? Go on. He gave you some great advice or what?

Phil LaMarr:

No, he just, what he showed because you would stand there offset talking to this cool old guy who was amazing, you know? Yeah. He's just talking about golfing or his daughter. But then when the camera started rolling Yeah. The person you were just talking to disappeared. Right on set. I looked over and I was looking into the eyes of someone completely different than Samuel L. Jackson. Right. And I remember standing there in my twenties thinking, oh my God, he transformed himself internally. And so that it shows externally. Yeah. That's like, I gotta learn how to do that.

Michael Jamin:

And then how did you learn how to do that?

Phil LaMarr:

Well, I, I'm still haven't gotten to his level , but what I learned is you have to figure out one, how you look and how you get, it's, it's like a map. Mm-Hmm. , you know you know, if you figure out how to guide your internal self to a place where your external self does what's on the page, that's what acting is. You know, otherwise you would just be reading words to be or not to be. That is the question. You know, it's not just about the words. It's how do you express the feeling? And Sam taught me there is a way where you don't have to do nine minutes of to get into character.

Michael Jamin:

Okay. If

Phil LaMarr:

You know the root within yourself, you can do it like that. Right. So I, I realized it was about learning your internal, you know, where do, where do you put your sadness? Where do you put your anger and where's, what's the difference between your anger and this character's anger? Guide yourself there and then, you know, connect the two.

Michael Jamin:

And do you have moments where you feel like, I I didn't do it. I didn't get there. You know. Well,

Phil LaMarr:

I mean that's the, the one good thing about on camera work and what we were talking about about the rehearsal Uhhuh is you can find, take the time to find it, but yes, no, there's, there's always, you know, not every job is a home run. Mm-Hmm. , you're like, oh, I wish I had gone a little bit deeper with that. Right. You know and sometimes you feel it there. Yes. Other times you don't realize it until after you see it. And maybe it's, they picked a take that Right. You didn't No. That wasn't the best one. Why didn't they, you know, not nothing is ever perfect.

Michael Jamin:

Right, right. You

Phil LaMarr:

Know,

Michael Jamin:

And, but do you, like sometimes I'll watch, I'll be on set and I'll watch an actor do something. Usually it's drama and or a dramatic moment. Right. And, and they let it all out. And after you, you'll cut. I'm always like, I wonder if they need a moment alone. You know what I'm saying? It's like Right. I mean, what are your, what's your take on that?

Phil LaMarr:

Well, I mean, I'm not a, a method guy. I don't put myself into, because Yeah. You, you hear a lot about that, about a guy's like, yeah man, I had to play this character and my girlfriend hated me for a month because when I went home I was still part of that dude. Yeah. You know? And I don't know if it's my improv and sketch background where I take my character off like a hat,

Michael Jamin:

Uhhuh . I

Phil LaMarr:

Don't take them home and, you know, I, I try to embody it during the performance, but I don't feel it's, you know, required to have to be the character.

Michael Jamin:

Right. But if you spend a whole day as a character,

Phil LaMarr:

It can, it can be draining.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. Right. It can be draining. Right. You have to wash yourself up that if, if you don't like that, you know, if you don't like that person, you have to wash yourself of that. Right. And how do you do that?

Phil LaMarr:

Yeah. Well, I mean that's, that's about, you know, when you leave the set mm-hmm. , you leave those feelings behind, although some actors don't, but you've

Michael Jamin:

Just experienced, you spent the whole day experiencing that mm-hmm. that whatever it is, and yes, I understand you left it, but you spent the whole day angry or, or mournful or bitter or whatever it is. Like how do you, you still have to wash yourself from that, don't you? Well,

Phil LaMarr:

But I mean, the, for me, I'm not fooling myself. I'm not trying to convince myself that the script and the character is real and me. Cuz that's the thing. Like, if you spend all day with your drunken uncle who's nasty on Thanksgiving, that's not fun.

Michael Jamin:

Right.

Phil LaMarr:

You know, and then when you leave, you're like, ugh. You can, you can still be right, you know, upset about it, but you're, you're con but because you're connected to that person. For me, it's about, that is fiction. Right. I only, you know, I'm connected to the fiction while performing. I don't feel like I have to be, you know, like when I play Hermes on Futurama, I don't have to speak in a Jamaican accent for the entire season.

Michael Jamin:

Right.

Phil LaMarr:

You know?

Michael Jamin:

But are there moments, and maybe this is less so for a voice acting, but when you're, when you're on, when you're on camera, are there moments when you're like, you're cognizant that, oh, I'm acting now. Mm-Hmm. , you know, and then you, and you have to, oh, I gotta get back. You know, and you're, you're delivering your lines right in the middle of the line, you realize I'm acting.

Phil LaMarr:

Well, it, it's interesting because I think part of this mental philosophy I have is, you know, comes from watching Sam Jackson Uhhuh because he wasn't method, he wasn't acting like Jules, you know, acting like a gangster, a man with a gun the whole time.

Michael Jamin:

Right.

Phil LaMarr:

And he showed me that. And it's funny because while he was doing that, Frank Whaley who had worked on the doors was telling anecdotes about how when Val Kilmer was playing Jim Morrison, he was the exact opposite. Right. He, before they started shooting, he sent out a memo. Everyone is to refer to me as Jim or Mr. Morrison.

Michael Jamin:

Right.

Phil LaMarr:

You know, and he had a tent set where he would, you know, work to be in character and would only come on set as Jim Morrison. Right. He was ne They never s they never spoke to Val.

Michael Jamin:

Right.

Phil LaMarr:

Right. So, you know, what about, yes. It's definitely difficult for some people if that's their approach. No, no. My approach is I have to live this character.

Michael Jamin:

Right. You know, so you're, so you, okay, so that's not your problem. You don't have to worry. That's not something you have to Yeah, no. Interesting. I, I'm so interested in the, the actor's approach to the material, you know? Yeah. Because, you know, we write it, but how do you guys do, how do you guys do it? Because there's a difference. There really is a difference. You know, we hear it one way we envision it, but we can't do it. Do you know what I'm saying? Yeah. We can't get it out of our heads onto, into reality, but you can. And so I'm always like, how did you do that

Phil LaMarr:

? Right. Well, it was, it was, it was interesting experience, you know, from the writing, acting, you know, crossover. Mm. I worked on a, I was developing an animated show based on a friend of mine's web comic called Goblins.

Michael Jamin:

Okay.

Phil LaMarr:

And my partner, Matt King and I, we were both performers, but we adapted the comic into a script. And I called a bunch of my voice actor friends, cuz we were, we were gonna make a trailer, you know, to bring these, you know, comic characters to life Yeah. In animation. And it was funny cuz Matt and I are actors. We had, you know, written the script and we'd acted out these scenes. And so in our heads we, we thought we knew exactly how they'd sound. But then we brought in amazing Billy West, Maurice La Marsh. Mm-Hmm. , Jim Cummings. Mm-Hmm. Steve Bloom, Jennifer. And it was funny because when they performed the scenes we had written, they took it to a whole other level. Right. Beyond what existed in our, in our heads. Right. Like, oh my God, they made it so much better than I even imagined it could

Michael Jamin:

Be. Right, right.

Phil LaMarr:

And it was wild cuz I'd heard writers, you know, express a similar kind of thing. It's like, oh my gosh, you guys did such, such amazing with, and, but to have it, you know, as someone who'd been a performer, to have someone take your and do that miracle with it was an eye-opening experience. Like, ah, but

Michael Jamin:

There's something else that you do. Cause you know, there's a handful ofri actors, voice of actors, they always work. You're one of them. But pro you call 'em in and it's, it's knowing, especially in comedy, knowing where, how to hit the joke. I mean, we always say, can they hit a joke? And knowing where the laugh falls, not just somewhere, but which word makes it, makes it funny, you know? Mm-Hmm. , you know. And do you think that's your instinct? Or is that just something you've gotten better at?

Phil LaMarr:

Yes, I think that's something that has grown from performing, especially in the sense of, in the sense of comedy. Because I remember, you know, starting out on stage doing, you know, plays, then doing, doing improv, which is specific comedy cuz when you're doing a play mm-hmm. , the writer has decided which moments are funny, which moments are dramatic, you know. But when you're doing improv, you and the audience are deciding what's funny. Right. And, and I remember coming, you know, back to LA and pursuing acting and then starting to get work on camera and doing comedy. And I realized, huh. Oh wow. I don't have an audience.

Michael Jamin:

Yes. And you

Phil LaMarr:

Have, you have to create a gauge in your head for, is this funny? Because when you're on stage and you're doing a funny bit, you're, you know, you can feel from the audience whether, oh, I need to push that up a little

Michael Jamin:

Bit. Right.

Phil LaMarr:

But when you're working on camera, this, the crew is not allowed to laugh out

Michael Jamin:

Loud. Right.

Phil LaMarr:

You know, so you have to create an audience inside you, an internal audience in your head to help, you know, is, is this the timing of this?

Michael Jamin:

Right.

Phil LaMarr:

And, and it's funny because I've developed that and a couple of years into it, I remember I got a job working on N Y P D, blue

Michael Jamin:

Uhhuh

Phil LaMarr:

Playing a guy who was being questioned, you know, interrogated in the police station and then gets roughed up by Ricky Schroeder

Michael Jamin:

Uhhuh.

Phil LaMarr:

But the, the lines, because this guy's on drugs. And I remember like, oh wow, I gotta be careful. This could be funny . Cause he's like, you know, like, you know, cause Ricky Schroeder, you know, sees blood on his, on his clothes, like, take your clothes off. It's like, and the guy take my clothes. What you wanna do? What you ain't gonna put no boom on my ass. Right. And I remembered I have to gauge the funny way to do this and not do

Michael Jamin:

That. Yes. Right, right. Because,

Phil LaMarr:

You know, there was, I, and I realize no, no. Pull back the tempo and lean into the anger, not the outrage.

Michael Jamin:

Right. Right. So, and

Phil LaMarr:

Then it'll be, then it'll be dramatic, not comedy.

Michael Jamin:

It's, again, here you are approaching it really from the craft. It's not Yeah. I just wish it's, when I hear people, I want to be an actor. Okay. Take it serious. Are you gonna study? Are you just gonna, do you wanna be famous? Which, what is it you want? You know?

Phil LaMarr:

Right.

Michael Jamin:

And well, let's talk about that for a second. What, what's your relationship with, with fame? How do you, you know?

Phil LaMarr:

Well, that's a very interesting thing because I feel like that has changed mm-hmm. from the generation, like when you're our age, when we were growing up pre-internet mm-hmm.

Michael Jamin:

Phil LaMarr:

Fame only applied to stars.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. Right.

Phil LaMarr:

Now, you know, I mean, nobody knew voice actors, only voice actor anybody knew was Mel Blank.

Michael Jamin:

Right.

Phil LaMarr:

You know, people to this day still don't know what Das Butler looks like. Right. But the now anybody who appears on anything, even a YouTuber

Michael Jamin:

Right.

Phil LaMarr:

Has some level of fame. Right. You know, and, and it's wild because, because of the internet, the, you know, it now matters what you say. In the old days, if you were a television character actor, like if you were Richard Mulligan

Michael Jamin:

Yeah.

Phil LaMarr:

It never, nobody was ever gonna post what you said about something.

Michael Jamin:

Right.

Phil LaMarr:

It was only if you were Joan Crawford. Right. Or you know, Marilyn Monroe. Like they would be, you know. But nowadays, people have access to everyone Yeah. That they can see anywhere. So to me, the level, what we call fame, has now expanded. Yeah. You know, in a much greater way. But it's also changed the way people think about performance. You know, and in some ways that's good because like, oh, well maybe I shouldn't do that. You know, char that stereotypical character because, you know, but in the old days, back in the eighties and nineties, if I was playing a stereotype, you know, gang banger, which I did,

Michael Jamin:

Right.

Phil LaMarr:

I didn't think about the negative impact of this episode of W I O U on cbs. How that, the negative impact that would have on society. It's like, no, I'm just on under five on the, on non top 20 show.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. Right. So you,

Phil LaMarr:

But nowadays somebody could, it could go viral on Twitter

Michael Jamin:

. Yeah. So you just gotta be more, you're just gotta be more careful about it, I guess. You be more thoughtful about what, you

Phil LaMarr:

Know, we're just more conscious of it.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. Right.

Phil LaMarr:

Back then you just thought about, is this paycheck gonna clear?

Michael Jamin:

Yes. Yeah.

Phil LaMarr:

You know, it's, it's funny because I, I spoke to a group of kids at a, at my daughter's high school about identity and entertainment uhhuh. And I told them about some of the progress, what I perceived as progress. Yeah. Back in the eighties, you know, there were a bunch of us, you know, young black actors trying out to play gang members.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah.

Phil LaMarr:

Those were always the bad guys in the eighties and nineties in a show, you know, and for most of us, those were the only parts. Right. There weren't leads available for us until a little later when U p n, the cw, you know, the wb you know, Fox, when those news new networks started, they realized, oh wow. If we can put on a black show, then all those black viewers will tune in and we'll have, you know,

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. There's, there's a whole audience we can tap into. Right, right.

Phil LaMarr:

But back when there were just three networks Yeah. You, you know, you would have one. Right. You know, people of color show Okay, Sanford and Sun, because Red Fox is a big star.

Michael Jamin:

Right.

Phil LaMarr:

But then it expanded and that meant there were more options. Yeah. But now this is wild. Several years ago, in the early two thousands, I was working on a project that one of the Zucker brothers did in a web series which was a, a soap opera parody called Sams of Passion, which was set in a fundamentalist Islam world. You know, like, you know, there's one scene where there's a family sitting around a table, and then their son comes in and they're very upset. It's like, what are you doing? You're supposed to be suicide bombing. Why are you home? You know,

Michael Jamin:

Okay.

Phil LaMarr:

And the, you know, the bulk of the, the cast Uhhuh was of Middle Eastern descent. Right. And it was wild to hear these young actors have the same discussion about playing terrorists

Michael Jamin:

Yeah.

Phil LaMarr:

That we had had about playing gang members 20 years before.

Michael Jamin:

Right, right. And that was, that was a discussion that you was, was it a common discussion with you and, and whoever else was auditioning for these parts and or Yeah,

Phil LaMarr:

It's, yeah. It's like, Hey, yeah, you gotta go for it, but hey, I gotta pay my rent. Yeah. I do my best to try to ground the character in reality and not just make it some stereotype, but Right. Who knows.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah.

Phil LaMarr:

But now, you know, that was in the early two thousands, post nine 11, but now 20 years later, you have a much broader Right. You know level of opportunities for Middle Eastern actors. Yes. You have the series Rami. Right. You have the Miss Marvel series where there's a Marvel superhero who is of Middle Eastern descent, and you see her whole family and friends and you know her religion. Yeah. You know, whereas 20 years ago,

Michael Jamin:

Forget it. Yeah. Yeah. Right.

Phil LaMarr:

So we're moving forward

Michael Jamin:

For sure. What I always like to, I I've had you on, I, I always like to conclude with cuz I, you've been so gracious to gimme all your, all your, so much time and knowledge, but I like to conclude with what do you, what do you sh what do you like to share or encourage or that like the next generation, what advice do you have for, for those coming up next?

Phil LaMarr:

Ooh. Well, because I'm old

Michael Jamin:

,

Phil LaMarr:

I tend to focus on what I see as the negative impacts of this, these changes. Mm-Hmm. like I said, the positive impact is d growth of diversity and representation. Right. But there's also, you know, some pushes against like, you know, this whole thing about authenticity. Every actor has to be exactly what the character is. Like what if that's true, then we would never have anybody playing vampires.

Michael Jamin:

Right. Yeah. Because

Phil LaMarr:

I wouldn't show up on camera. Right. So I I I try to, you know, get the younger people to focus on No, no. It's about the storytelling. Right. It's about the emotional authenticity, not just about, you know, you know, story authenticity. These are fictional stories. Right. It's just gotta feel real. It doesn't have to be real. But also the, like you said before, cuz with this internet thing and this change in the concept of fame mm-hmm. , there are so many people who get into performing now just for the attention.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah.

Phil LaMarr:

And I try to encourage people, it's like, no, no, this is an art form. Right. The Picasso didn't paint. It's like, I want to get into the move. No. He was trying to express something

Michael Jamin:

That's now you've really, but now I'm gonna take more of your time because now I want to hear what your thoughts are on this. Cuz AI is coming and to me, like you, what it's exactly what you just said, which is art is creating something, something from the human experience and expressing it so that you can better understand yourself, the world and then so others can better understand the, you know, the world. Right. But the key word I just said is understand the human experience. Mm-Hmm. and AI is not human. At least not yet. It's not sentient. Mm-Hmm. . And yet here it's coming after our here it's coming for our jobs. And I don't know, what are your, what are your thoughts on this?

Phil LaMarr:

Well, the, the scariest thing about that to me is I believe that there will definitely be a gap uhhuh between what the computer creates uhhuh and what a real artist would create. Right.

Michael Jamin:

By by definition it can't create art by, by my definition at least, it can't create art cuz it is not human. But go on.

Phil LaMarr:

But the problem is, if the people who are financing it, if the CEOs of the tech company, the people who are making the decision about the content, don't prioritize the feeling and the auth, the emotional authenticity.

Michael Jamin:

Right.

Phil LaMarr:

They're just, you know, they're just gonna go with the, what's the algorithm responding to. Right. And I feel like if they start pushing this AI thing, you know, more and more it's gonna be, it's gonna turn creative, you know, writing and performance into the same mentality that they use about clickbait. Mm-Hmm. , you know, cuz in the old days

Michael Jamin:

Interesting. You put

Phil LaMarr:

Out a headline because you wanted to give the people information about the article. But when we moved into the world of infotainment mm-hmm. , no, no. This headline is just to make them click on it. Right. It doesn't matter if it's true, it doesn't matter if it's really what the article is about, we want to draw their attention.

Michael Jamin:

Right.

Phil LaMarr:

And that's what the ai, you know, the algorithms are gonna do. They're gonna, you know, you know, they'll go through all the data of our art and say, which ones have gotten most attention, which have gotten the most clicks. And so that's what they're gonna pick. You know, so it won't be about the best feeling cuz you know, when an executive reads your script, they can break it down according to other things they've read, but they can also have an internal feeling about it.

Michael Jamin:

Right. Yeah.

Phil LaMarr:

But the machine, the machine will not

Michael Jamin:

See. That's so interesting cuz I, I, that analogy I'd never heard before that click that clickbait analogy, which is very interesting. Mm-Hmm. , that's actually giving me some thought. Yeah. Right. It's going to be about until, until it becomes sentient. If that's, and, and then it'll actually have an experience. But I don't know. I I, but I wonder if people will appreciate what you and I appreciate about art. I wonder if it doesn't, if it doesn't matter to them. I don't know. Oh, interesting. You know? Well I

Phil LaMarr:

Feel like you know, that people will feel the difference that the machine cannot feel because, you know, this, this whole idea of it is some, when you tell a story that is specific and rooted in your feeling, it has a universal appeal. Exactly. It doesn't just appeal to the exact same people who've experienced the same thing you have.

Michael Jamin:

Right, right. You know, it's the specificity that makes it universal. Exactly. But can they, can AI, will they, will AI be able to do that? And will anybody care? People care as much as you and I do. That's all I, that's what worries me.

Phil LaMarr:

Well, what worries me is that the people making the decisions won't, I

Michael Jamin:

I I think we, I think we already know that, you know, I think they're gonna go for whatever's cheaper, you know? Right, right. So Yeah. Well,

Phil LaMarr:

I mean, the whole mini room thing I think is an example of that. It's like,

Michael Jamin:

Wait,

Phil LaMarr:

I mean, imagine you have an auto factory and I'm just gonna have four, you know, robot arms do the same thing that 700 human workers would do. It's like, well you're only gonna make four cars a day.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. Right. Yeah, yeah,

Phil LaMarr:

Yeah. But I'll just, I'll just sell 'em for more.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. Right. Yeah.

Phil LaMarr:

Yeah. Cause all they care about is the money.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. They don't, it's so, it's so interesting because they had, I just wish they would had, I wish they'd take a writing class or an acting class. I wish they understood what goes into it and instead of treating it like, you know, the assembly line. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. Phil Lamar, I, this has been such an interesting discussion. Really appreciate, I really appreciate, again, I'll say it again cuz it needs to be said, the amount of attention that you bring to your craft and your dedication, I don't know, you, you, to me, you approach it like a student. You're, it seems like you're constantly studying, you know, oh, what, what more can I learn about what I do? You know what I'm saying? Right. That's, and, and, you know, but you do rather like, what more can you learn about what you do mm-hmm. so that you can become better at it. It's just fascinating to me. I have so much admiration for you. Thank you so much. Oh, thank

Phil LaMarr:

You. Yeah. And, and I feel the same way about you and the things that you post about writing. I mean, I'm like, oh my God, anybody who clicks on your Instagram is getting a free masterclass.

Michael Jamin:

,

Phil LaMarr:

Thank you. Because you have the same focus on the craft and the, you know, and you, but you communicate the ideas about it, so Well,

Michael Jamin:

Thank you. Yeah. I, you know, we love it. That's all. We love our jobs. We just wanna keep doing it. Is that, well,

Phil LaMarr:

But it's, it's rare for people to be as talented as you are at creating mm-hmm. and to be able to educate about the creativity that's, that's not the same skillset.

Michael Jamin:

Right. Right. Thank you. I I appreciate that. It's yeah. Yeah. I didn't, I didn't know where this was gonna go, this journey of starting to post on social media. So I, I, you know, I I appreciate that kind of feedback. Yeah.

Phil LaMarr:

Well, no, I mean, that's, that's why you get the responses you get is because you are giving people, you know, it's not just, here's an idea, here's a, here's a, you know, you know, just a little tip.

Michael Jamin:

I always wonder if I'm gonna teach, am I wor, am I gonna run outta things to say that's what I worry about. Am I gonna run? I mean, surely I ran out about eight months ago. . Right.

Phil LaMarr:

,

Michael Jamin:

What's going on? You know, I don't know. But I really appreciate it. Thank you so much. And thank you for joining me. I really, for sharing your knowledge. It's fantastic. I appre should, is there anything people, where people should follow you or, or visit for you or find out what you're doing next?

Phil LaMarr:

Well, yes. Yes. There's a, there's two , actually, it's funny. Got two really fun series about space

Michael Jamin:

Okay. And

Phil LaMarr:

Earth.

Michael Jamin:

Right.

Phil LaMarr:

One is this new episode, this new series called Mulligan, produced by Tina Fey and the creators of 30 Rock. Right. an animated series on Netflix. Oh. About, you know, Amy and Invasion that almost destroys the planet, but this, you know, quirky Boston guy saves the, the world uhhuh, and then they have to rebuild the world.

Michael Jamin:

And you're one of the, one of the regulars on it. Yeah. Yeah. Great. Great.

Phil LaMarr:

And we've got new episodes of Futurama.

Michael Jamin:

That's amazing. They're bringing that back. They're

Phil LaMarr:

Dropping on, we're we're back from the dead for the fourth time.

Michael Jamin:

. Right. Exactly. They keep on bringing it back. That's great. Good for good. Everyone go check out Phil. He's such a talent. I'm not sure if they'll able recognize you, your voice, because you have so many, but he's, he's in . He's in him. I can tell you that. Phil, thank you so much for joining me. My pleasure, Michael. Thanks for having me. Oh, please. Yeah. All right everyone, thank you so much for, for listening. What a great talk. And until next week, keep keep writing and keep acting. Okay.

Phil Hudson:

This has been an episode of Screenwriters. Need to Hear This with Michael Jamin and Phil Hudson. If you're interested in learning more about writing, make sure you register for Michael's monthly webinar michaeljamin.com/webinar. If you found this podcast helpful, consider sharing it with a friend and leaving us a five-star review on iTunes. For free screenwriting tips, follow Michael Jamin on social media @MichaelJaminWriter. You can follow Phil Hudson on social media @PhilAHudson. This podcast was produced by Phil Hudson. It was edited by Dallas Crane. Music by Ken Joseph. Until next time, keep writing.

Jesse McLaren is a Jimmy Kimmel writer.

Jesse McLaren on Twitter - https://twitter.com/McJesse

Jesse McLaren on Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/larenmcjesse/

Free Writing Webinar - https://michaeljamin.com/op/webinar-registration/

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Jesse McLaren:

If something just pops into your head on a Saturday of a story that, you know, you'll be talking about Monday, right? Like, I I did it. I got, I got something I know is like, gonna be really funny to pitch on Monday, right? So it's actually a little bit of a relief. It's not like, oh, I can't stop thinking about work. It's like, oh, and now I don't have to stress Sunday night or whatever. It's like, I know that, well, I'm gonna go into Monday with something I think is, is strong.

Michael Jamin:

Hey everyone, it's Michael Jamin. Welcome back to another episode of Screenwriters. Need to Hear This. I got a very interesting guest today because he's gonna tell us all about something I know very little about, but I always aspired to do when I was younger. This, this, my next guest, Jesse McLaren, is a writer on Jimmy Kimmel. And again, I like, yeah man, I, I just wanna know all about that. Cause as a child, I was like, man, I, that, that would've been the, the pinnacle. But I went another way. I went into sitcom writing. But, but, but, but with how we met, we were, I was walking the strike line outside of Disney and then Jesse goes, Hey man, I know you. And he pulls me over cuz he follows, I guess he follows me on TikTok or Instagram. And I was like, Hey, what do you doing? And he's like, I'm on Kimmel. So, welcome to this show. Thank you Jesse, for being here.

Jesse McLaren:

Thank you for having me.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. I wanna know all about, and I asked you, I asked him you know, you, I guess I'll talk to you like how you broke in and you're like, Twitter. So tell me what that, how that all came about?

Jesse McLaren:

Yeah. I'm you know, like I, I've always wanted to work in late night. That's always been my end goal. And, you know, as a

Michael Jamin:

Kid, saw

Jesse McLaren:

Conan

Michael Jamin:

As

Jesse McLaren:

A child. Yeah. Yeah. I remember like cutting school to see Conan. I, I grew up in Long Island and

Michael Jamin:

So you go into the city to see a show.

Jesse McLaren:

Yeah. I just remember like watching in between, you know, the the segments, just watching the people behind the scenes going like, how do I end up working here when I was like, you know, 16 maybe.

Michael Jamin:

Wow.

Jesse McLaren:

And then I always watch work late night. Yeah.

Michael Jamin:

And then what did you think about, like, usually you, you write a packet and you submit, right? Is that, but you didn't do that,

Jesse McLaren:

That's usually what you do. Yeah. I mean, I for Kimel they found me on Twitter. So, you know, after I, I started tweeting jokes and making videos on Twitter as much as I could for a period of time. I used to work at you know, for a while I worked at different TV shows. So I, I'm one of the, I think many people late night who worked production jobs first. Right. I used to work at the field, field departments and that kind of thing.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. I noticed it. So you worked like, on, on Colbert, you did a bunch of different shows

Jesse McLaren:

Right. Yeah. I worked on a lot of daytime TV shows, Uhhuh , kind of, it's actually kind of a similar structure, you know as far as how the show runs, but it's obviously very different content. Right. 

Michael Jamin:

But why didn't you ever start writing packets and submitting, or, I don't even know how that works. Why, why didn't you do that?

Jesse McLaren:

Well, I did. So when I was, you know, I, I, my first, I, you know, landed a job that was my dream, which I worked at the Colbert Poor. Right. doing production, doing you know, the field department when he would travel to DC and that kind of thing. And interview congressman. Right. A series called Better Know A District. Mm-Hmm. . And whenever a writer job opened up there, anyone who was in the, you know, a PA or an ap, which I was, or anything like that, they would submit a packet. And you know, then starting, like, you get to know the writers and you start hearing rumors like, oh, you know, they're starting a new show called Larry Wilmore. Right. And, you know, our whatever. And you start submitting packets to whatever you can as someone who's not represented, but someone who kind of has,

Michael Jamin:

So how do you submit even if you don't have an agent?

Jesse McLaren:

Well back at that point, it was like, if you, you know, like you have a friend of a friend who's like submitting and they'll say, this is the email we're told to send it to. By this time it kind of becomes this like, network of just like, you know, so like, if you find out about a packet, you might tell some of your other friends, there's

Michael Jamin:

A packet going on. So. Okay. Good. So how did you make, how did you have friends that knew all this?

Jesse McLaren:

I think that was from working at Colbert, you know, I was, I interned there, I applied as in when I was in college, I applied to be an intern at Everywhere, but I ended up at MTV Networks. Right. And you know, it was like my second to last semester I was interning at Nickelodeon mm-hmm. and like in a tape room, just like, just filing tapes. And I, and in the orientation I heard someone in the elevator go, oh, you know, I'm gonna be at the Daily Show. And that's went wait, that, that was a possibility, you know? Yeah. and in New York at that time, yeah,

Michael Jamin:

Go ahead. No, tell, keep going. This's just fascinating to me. Go ahead.

Jesse McLaren:

This the, the Daily Show and the Colbert Report were like the two shows under MTV that were actually a show that shot and you would actually be part of a production, you know? Yeah. so I applied to be at the Colbert Report. I think it helped that I already had an internship with NT Networks and I interned there eventually, you know, made connections there, which sometimes throughout the next few years, like if they needed a PA for the week, I would come by and that kind of thing.

Michael Jamin:

See, this is what I'm always telling people. I say, get as close as you can physically to the job you want. And that's what you did is as an intern or pa whatever it is, you're just getting close. Just so you could learn, be around it, hear from other people, and just make those contacts that way. Right. And then, yeah.

Jesse McLaren:

Yeah.

Michael Jamin:

And then when you're putting together packets, I mean, each show they kind of do, they kind of want different stuff? I mean, they might, they must say they do, they must say no, Conan's voice is this and, you know, were you studying the Yeah,

Jesse McLaren:

I mean, every packet's way different. I mean, the, at the time the Colbert packet I remember was like pretty intense. It was like, you had, you had that segment, the word Uhhuh , I dunno if you're familiar with the show, but that one. But it was pretty, it was, you know, a to camera on one subject and it would have all these editorial like voices through text, just kind of like shining in Okay. As jokes. But also, and it was kind of complicated, especially if you've never written for, you know, like it's one thing to write a page of monologue jokes, but it's another like, write an entire one of these segments that has to like, you know, be about a topic that needs attention and then it's written in a clever way and, you know, so, but

Michael Jamin:

So you're basically coming up, were you coming with any original stuff or just like, okay, here's my version of, you know, of that the word or you, or you coming with any new bits for him to do, you know what I'm saying? Any like, you know,

Jesse McLaren:

Yeah. Any packet I've ever seen has always been different. Some, so that show specifically, I think they really were like, like focused on what they want. Right. For the packets. Like one of these segments we do one of these segments, we do, maybe it, you know, I don't remember exactly what it was, but it was pretty much like especially cuz that that was show wasn't like monologue jokes. It was a character who had a very specific point of, you know didn't realize he was saying funny things like that kinda thing.

Michael Jamin:

Right. And so you turn you hand in these packets. It's not like they have a hiring season, they just

Jesse McLaren:

No. If

Michael Jamin:

You get lucky, if they, if they were hiring today, great. If not, maybe they keep you on file. Is that how it works?

Jesse McLaren:

I guess. I mean, I've never gotten hired from a packet, so it's like, I don't, you dunno. I think every show is completely different and I think every you know, I'm not entirely sure how we do it at Kimmel, but I, and I know they found me through, through Twitter. I know other people have written packets for them, but I, and so on

Michael Jamin:

Twitter, this is amazing. So you're just going out. What were you doing at the time? You've been on Twitter for how, for how long? How many years?

Jesse McLaren:

Like a while , I mean, I worked at like, so let's see, probably like eight years. I've been like actively really using it a

Michael Jamin:

Lot. And so every morning you, how would, like, before you get hired by Kimmel, what's your, what's your process for writing? You just come up, you sit down on the table, you read the newspaper and you try to bang out 10 jokes or what do you do?

Jesse McLaren:

No, I think it's more quality over quantity for that kind of thing too. Cuz you just wanna, I think the thing with Twitter is it's like, you know, but when the news story happens, this wave and you kind of want to get the funniest joke in there as early as possible.

Michael Jamin:

But are you ta Okay, so, but are you just putting it on your feed or are you writing it under el someone else's comment? Like a news, someone like newscaster's comment and then you, you know, to try to get their trafficked?

Jesse McLaren:

I think it, no, just writing a joke about, everyone's talking about one thing, you know, if you just have the perfect thing I'm trying to think of a good example. It's really hard off the top of my head. But

Michael Jamin:

So you just post it in your, your feed, you give it a hashtag hope someone would search for it, hopes hope one of your whatever friends will follow you. Retweets it and it goes viral. Yeah. That's your plan, that's your, that's your plan basically. Yeah.

Jesse McLaren:

I think every social media's a little different, but like, especially Twitter, the whole thing is trying to get retweets. That's how something, and so how very quickly could have, you know,

Michael Jamin:

But then how, okay, so something would occur to you and then you'd write a couple jokes or just one or what, or as it as it comes, you just tweet it. And now did you have a schedule? Did you have any kind of discipline to this or were you just like, whatever came to you?

Jesse McLaren:

I don't think I had any discipline. No. I think with Twitter it's like, you know, it's in a, an addiction almost. It's just uhhuh. You'll be out today with your friends, you'll look down at your phone, just see like, oh my God, I can't believe, you know, just something happened. And

Michael Jamin:

Okay. So you, you're on there a lot then basically you're,

Jesse McLaren:

I used to be on there very often. Yeah.

Michael Jamin:

Really. And so on an average day before you were found, like how many tweets would you send out in a day?

Jesse McLaren:

I don't know, maybe like five to 10 kind of. Okay. It's hard to tell. Yeah.

Michael Jamin:

And then some would get, but a lot of

Jesse McLaren:

It would also, yeah. And a lot of it would also just be like at work. I also worked at Buzzfeed for a while. Okay. So I kind of, one I in real life had knew people who you know, we followed each other on social media, but they had big social media followings. So they saw something, I tweeted a joke that they liked, they might retweet it and that would get me more followers. And then it also just working there really taught me a lot about how social media works and yeah.

Michael Jamin:

What, what, what did you learn that you could share? Like what's your take big takeaway?

Jesse McLaren:

Well, I think, I mean specifically with jokes and Twitter, I, you know, one, they all change over time a little bit. But I, I think Twitter consistently, like the, if you want a lot of people to see something you made, it almost doesn't even matter how many followers you have. But if you can get something retweeted a lot, it can kind of just work away brush fire where, you know, you might have, you know, 30 followers, but if someone sees it and retweets it and more people do it, it could, but

Michael Jamin:

Are you

Jesse McLaren:

Creating a brand 30,000?

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. Are you staying on brand when you do this? Or are you like, cause it's one thing like, okay, this guy tweets out funny topical jokes every day and he is not tweeting out what he ate for lunch. Like, you know what I'm saying? Do, are you staying on brand? I'm a joke writer and that's it.

Jesse McLaren:

I don't know. Maybe, I mean, yeah, I don't know.

Michael Jamin:

You don't know. You're just going with it. Whatever was wor I mean, it worked. I'm just curious how it, how it worked.

Jesse McLaren:

Yeah, I mean, to me it was just always jokes and you know, I would also, you know, make videos or Photoshops just, you know, pieces of actual media, that kinda thing, Uhhuh. But it was always the goal of, you know, tweeting something and seeing as many people trying to get a lot of engagement with it

Michael Jamin:

And then

Jesse McLaren:

Hopefully something funny. Yeah.

Michael Jamin:

And then someone found it and then had, tell me how Kimmel came about.

Jesse McLaren:

I think, well over time, like, you know, I, the more I started realizing that this could lead to a writing job more than I, you know, I used to work at the Colbert Report, I submitted packets places, but that never really did anything for me. Right. Always, you know, never Were

Michael Jamin:

You frustrated? Were you frustrated by that? Were you upset or what, you know, when you weren't getting hired, what, how, what was your take on that?

Jesse McLaren:

Yeah, it's frustrating. It's also, if I go back and read one of those packets now I like can't do it. You know? So it's like, at the time I thought this is like the best interesting thing I've ever written. How could they not hire me? And then

Michael Jamin:

Interesting. And really, cuz you've really grown and that just comes from practice, you think? Or what?

Jesse McLaren:

Yeah, I think, you know, it's any, anything that gives you actual feedback is really important. And to me, Twitter gave me feedback. I'm really like, you know, not comfortable on stage. I don't have that drive. I don't like doing Right. Performance.

Michael Jamin:

I asked you that if you're a standup and you're like, no, I don't want to, I don't

Jesse McLaren:

Wanna do standup. Yeah. It's like, I never no interest. I like the one, the few writers who doesn't wanna be on camera Uhhuh. But Twitter for, that's why for me specifically, it was a really good way to learn how to be a better writer just because you'd see what people actually find funny and especially once, you know.

Michael Jamin:

Okay. So then how, so someone, somehow, one of your tweets, do you know which one landed on the, on the desk of Jimmy Kimmel somehow?

Jesse McLaren:

I'm not sure which one. I think it might have been about Mike Ee.

Michael Jamin:

Oh,

Jesse McLaren:

Okay. I feel like it was like some kind of like, I tweeted something, I just remember I think like Julie Louis Dreyfus maybe retweeted it or something. It's like sometimes you would see like, oh, this person retweeted or tweet, you know?

Michael Jamin:

Right. 

Jesse McLaren:

And then I just remember like within quick succession, like Jimmy and a couple of his writers our producers followed me like within like 15 minutes. So I don't know if it was from that tweet or if it was from, you know.

Michael Jamin:

And how would you, how would you know? I mean, you're not following your followers by the second, I mean, no,

Jesse McLaren:

I, I if it says like, when, like, I think when someone verified, followed you. Okay. At that point it would be like, before people were verified, they were like, you know,

Michael Jamin:

And so you noticed they followed you and you're like, damn, this is good. And then what happened?

Jesse McLaren:

And then yeah, I eventually they reached out and just said, Hey, when, you know, we would respond to know more about you. And eventually that kind of turned into an interview process, you know, once I expressed.

Michael Jamin:

But they didn't ask ask you to submit a packet though?

Jesse McLaren:

I didn't end up submitting a packet for them. No.

Michael Jamin:

They just looked at your body of work on Twitter and go, okay, this guy's funny, consistently funny. Right.

Jesse McLaren:

Yeah. I think, I think I kind of treated that week as my, or whatever it was as my packet where I would just consistently tweet things that I thought were in the show's voice or that they would maybe see and go, God, I wish, you know, we should have, we should have thought of that. You know, anything that I can think that they might think that is like what I really tried to do. And

Michael Jamin:

Okay, so then they hire you. Tell me what your day is like. Well, first of all, are you working in person or are you on zoom or remote or now, you know

Jesse McLaren:

Yeah, we're in person.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, you're in person. So you go to work, you show up, what, 10 o'clock?

Jesse McLaren:

Yeah, we start early at home and we write a lot of our jokes at at home first, which is great.

Michael Jamin:

. So you come in prepared. How many, how many jokes will you have when you come into work?

Jesse McLaren:

We will, you know, we'll write anything from, they'll always say it's quality over quality. Right. You know, they don't wanna have to sift through too many jokes just cause you wanna, you know so like, I would say that anywhere from 10 to 20 is normal.

Michael Jamin:

You feel good about it, you feel good there. Okay. These are, and then,

Jesse McLaren:

But it's, it matters. Which of your jokes get kicked. So in the morning then, you know, they'll kind of, I think Jimmy will go through all the material and at that point, you know, that's, that's all you care about. You know, you don't care about how many jokes you sent, you care about how many eventually

Michael Jamin:

Get. And so on a good day, what, how many of your jokes will get in on, on into the mono? You're talking about the monologue now?

Jesse McLaren:

Yeah. Yeah. I could someone told me when I started I've heard this from other shows too, people say like, one is a good day or is an amazing day. Right. That's something I've heard like at Colbert. And I think that kind of holds up. Like if you get, but it's more about, you know, it's not just jokes, it's kind of over time. Like, if you have one joke a few days in a row, maybe that's not great. If you have one day that was just incredible, you had a segment you wrote that did really well, you'd feel good. Right? And the next day you don't get any jokes, you know, you just be like, okay, well I had a great day yesterday and today I didn't get as many on.

Michael Jamin:

What, what do you do with the jokes that don't get selected? Do you tweet them or are they just go in the garbage?

Jesse McLaren:

I used to, sometimes I would tweet them, but it's, it just felt like, you know, you never know if a story's gonna come up again in some way you don't expect. Okay. And maybe that joke is worth revisiting. It's rare. You, you don't wanna read pitch a joke ever, you know, I'm sure. No,

Michael Jamin:

You don't wanna re No, you don't wanna pitch it again to, to, right. But yeah, I think you can retool it and change it enough to make it fresh.

Jesse McLaren:

Yeah. But also at a certain point you're like, well, this already failed some kind of test to this joke. You know? Right. Cause you never completely confident in a joke. You're like, well, if the show didn't want this, maybe it's not the best joke. So I've, in the past, a joke didn't get on, I tweeted it and it just fell flat and no one cared. And I'm like, oh, well,

Michael Jamin:

Must

Jesse McLaren:

That

Michael Jamin:

Must not be funny. But, so if, when you come into work, let's say, all right, let's say you you put together 10 jokes. How long would that take you to, before you feel, okay, is it an hour work? How long does it take you to do that?

Jesse McLaren:

It's like they send out, you know, they'll send out topics in the morning. A writer's assistant who gets a very early will send out topics and then you send your jokes. And that's usually a period of about an hour and 50 minutes.

Michael Jamin:

But we're

Jesse McLaren:

The start out later. You can start out earlier you

Michael Jamin:

Know, are, when you, they say topics, are they giving you the setups of setups or they just say, we, you know, we wanna do jokes about inflation or whatever.

Jesse McLaren:

Yeah. Like here are like five, eight to whatever story, like five, eight stories that are good, whatever. Okay. If you have another story story, you think, okay, we should cover that. Go ahead. But it's like a good, just kind of keeps everyone grounded. At least we're all talking about similar things. The

Michael Jamin:

Same thing. You see. That's interesting because like, I, I've tweeted a couple of jokes just as you know, when I had downtime, well, more than a couple, but whatever there I, I, I found if I went onto a website, I'm just curious what your take is like going on c n n or whatever, or, or ha Washington. Any website, New York Times, Washington Post go on their site and reading their headline or reading the article to me was not helpful. Cuz they already had an angle. Whereas I just wanted to get this, gimme the straight line. And so I would go into other, they would just like the news to, you know, you know, aggregators I the straight just gimme the straight line so I don't get any spin on it. And then I'll come up with a spin. Is that how you do it or no,

Jesse McLaren:

No, I think we just see the, the headline and to write jokes for something, you have to kind of think of every angle you can to see if there's something funny. So yeah, I think that usually works itself out because whatever the story is, you know, you're, it's more the headline and the facts of it that you're just trying to find any do you

Michael Jamin:

Feel you've gotten better at this over the years? Is it coming? Does it gotten easier for you?

Jesse McLaren:

I think it has gotten easier, but it's not like, oh, I get this many jokes on now as I think now, just the process is more I can recognize a good joke. Yes, I can, I can edit myself better now. Right. I can say, you know what, instead of saying sending these 15 jokes, I'm gonna send these eight and this is probably the best. You know, I think that's what I've gotten better at.

Michael Jamin:

And this is something that you do, even when you're in a b obviously when you're in a bad mood, when you're not in the mood to be funny, you gotta be funny.

Jesse McLaren:

Yeah. And it's, it's, but yeah, I, I just, I love it. I love sitting down and writing. I morning is my favorite part of the day and right know, I kind of like the way that it's, our day is structured where the most high pressure part is over with as quick as possible. Cuz once that's done, you kind of did as writers, at least for everyone else, the day is structured a little different, but for us it's like you have to really be on point in the morning.

Michael Jamin:

And how many monologue writers are there on Kimmel?

Jesse McLaren:

I think altogether we have, I should know, it's probably around 15 to 20 writers in general. Wow. But we're not split like other shows. Not

Michael Jamin:

Some other shows. Yeah. How do the, how do other shows do it? I cut you off. Some have monologue writers then what else?

Jesse McLaren:

I think like Fallon, I know had a friend there who was like, he was like, I'm a monologue writer. Like I write monologue. I think every show, you know, all these shows, I think every show kind of like figured it out for themselves. Yeah. So every show is a little bit of a different, like, universe kind of built around the same thing. But some of them are just, you know but some of them are separated where it's like, these are the monologue writers. These people write segment pitches or bits. But you kind of all do everything. And

Michael Jamin:

So, okay, Seth, tell me what it's like. Okay, so you come to work now, you're given, you know, I don't know, whatever, 10 jokes. Now you're in the office and, and then what's next?

Jesse McLaren:

It depends, you know, with the jokes, you, if you, you also pitch any bits you could think of, like something that would just have more substance and be, you know producible. It's very important. You know?

Michael Jamin:

And that seems to be the hard part for me. How, how do you come up with that?

Jesse McLaren:

You know, I think that's what I was good at on Twitter is I think that's kind of what they liked about my Twitter. I would, you know, like one example I could think of that I think that they saw was Sarah Huckabee Sanders was giving it was like, you know, when Sarah Huckabee Sanders first started, there was a lot of attention on her. And everyone's like, who is this person? And mm-hmm. , she, I think she was talking about sinkhole under the White House. Do you remember? That was a story. It was like, I, I don't remember that White House. Yeah. It was like one of these things, like at the time it was just like, what the fuck? It's like there are sinkhole opening up under the White House and there's, you see like pictures of caution tape and there's jokes about like, you know, they're sinking into hell or whatever it is. But she said in you know, she was, I remember what it was exactly, but she was maybe saying there aren't sinkhole under the White House, but whatever she was saying, she was denying that this was a thing. So I, you know, am able to, I even used After Effects to have her slowly sinking as she said that. And then, you know, she like plummets through.

Michael Jamin:

But that, that's a funny bit. But that would've been, that would've gone in the monologue, right?

Jesse McLaren:

Yeah, I think so. So that, and, and, and that's something that but that's something I did before Kimmel. But that I think maybe got their attention maybe when they said that's the kind of thing we want, you know? Right. But that's what our show would consider. Like, a bit something that has some production to it that you could get that done by the end of the day. Mm-Hmm. . And the fact that I kind of knew I could do this myself, it wouldn't look nearly as good as our team cuz they're professionals. Professionals. Right. But I know that if I pitched that at the show, I know like, okay, we can get this done by four o'clock, whatever taping is today. But

Michael Jamin:

You wouldn't on the show, you wouldn't have done the app. You wouldn't have done the, the graphic. Someone else would've done

Jesse McLaren:

It. No. Yeah. Yeah. So just helps tap the knowledge. Yeah. It just helps to know like, cuz he never,

Michael Jamin:

It's producible. Yes. Right.

Jesse McLaren:

Drives people crazy. Yeah.

Michael Jamin:

But do and do bigger bits, like any kind of, you know, do you also do like something that are more stagey with him or out in the field or whatever? Do you pitch that as well?

Jesse McLaren:

Yeah, I mean, those are you know, always a very specific thing. You know, it'll be like, those will be like an assignment. It'll be, Hey, by five o'clock, send some ideas for, you know, this actor wants to do something with us and they're promoting this movie where they're a fighter pilot or something. And you'll go, okay. Like, and we'll have them for two. Maybe you'll get, maybe you'll get something like that. We'll have them for a couple hours. Right. And so, and they can't change it to cost or whatever because they're becoming right from thing. You know, there's always like you, it's all restriction. Yeah. It's all you take, you take, especially in late night, it's like, what can we make the most out of, out of this? And yeah. And then there are some times that we do, we are able to do something that is time and production and people, you know, is a bigger thing.

But, you know, for our main day to day Uhhuh , it's always thinking about making this producible. Making sure this is something that we can get done in time. Right. That's exactly right. You never wanna get them wet. Nothing where they have wardrobe change, , you know, like their hair wet. But now what is the, what is like the, the contract cycle look like for a late night writer is like how long? Yeah. How long is your contracts usually? Three years, I think. Which I think is typical of Yeah. Like you have an option. I would assume a new writer would've an option for like 10 weeks or something. No, and then, well, I think, I think it's the op It's that thing where you're, well, I'm on cycles. I think about like 13 weeks, something like that, right. From their side. Like, they can get rid of me every 13.

That's the way I always, always understood it when I worked in daytime. That's how it was. Like, you know, not even as a, just as like a field producer or whatever. They had me on, I think the same exact situation where every 13 weeks when I was at like you know, Rachel Ray or whatever the daytime TV show was, it was like every 13 weeks they might get rid of you or you could yeah. You're outta your contract after one year, two year, three years, depending on what they give you. That kind basically pay, pay raise. Right. That's what that, that's what that means. Yeah. I mean, I think it's, you renegotiate, you know? Right. You, yeah.

Michael Jamin:

Hey, it's Michael Jamin. If you like my videos and you want me to email them to you for free, join my watch list. Every Friday I send out my top three videos. These are for writers, actors, creative types. You can unsubscribe whenever you want. I'm not gonna spam you and it's absolutely free. Just go to michaeljamin.com/watchlist.

Jesse McLaren:

You've been, well, you've been on staff now for what, five years on Kimmel? Lemme see. Yeah. Yeah. So you're not sweating it out every 13 weeks. The way someone who just started would be sweating it out. You know, I don't, yeah. I, I, yeah. I always am just like, so feel so lucky that I get to work in late night at all. And, but I can never, and and I'll always, if I have a bad week, I'm like, I'm gonna get fired. That's just always the way my brain just works. That's part of the way I motivate myself for good or bad. But it won't compare to that first 13 weeks where legitimately you're like, I might not be good at this job. I don't know. Cause I have no point of reference in how much collaboration is there with other writers? Do you have a writing room?

We don't have as much of a writing room on our show in terms of like every day. Like, it's like we have a morning meeting of writers every day kind of thing. Uhhuh we just have our room just for like, oh, today we're just, it's more casual. Mm-Hmm. , it's more people have, if you're having a problem with something, you're just like, I can't figure out the ending to this thing. Whatever. Right. That's when you'll, we'll be like, oh, let's, you know, just bring it up today. And then there's a lot of just kind of casual. You just pull someone else in to something. You know, sometimes it's like, I have a really funny idea, I think for this guest coming up. I don't watch the show though. Like, do you watch this show? Does this make sense? Do you wanna team up with me on it and we'll both play together? Or that kinda thing. Yeah. Now,

Michael Jamin:

So who is it, I'm sure that, I'm guessing there's a head writer on Kimmel who reads all the submissions and decides what to give to Jimmy for his ultimate approval. Is that how it works?

Jesse McLaren:

Yeah. We have head writers who split, you know, responsibility. Yeah. Okay. And yeah, you know, because our show is so quick, you know, everything would be filtered through head writers or if it's like the show's starting in five minutes, it's like, just show him whatever, you know, if you need something approved for that night and he's in the makeup chair, maybe you would.

Michael Jamin:

Right. are you on the floor during taping or no?

Jesse McLaren:

Yeah. not often, no. I mean, our studio you know, I have just for like, I, I haven't too often now our our, our studio is a little cramped, so we don't really go in there too

Michael Jamin:

Often, so, but you watch it. I, I guess in your office you have a live feed, you know, line. Yeah.

Jesse McLaren:

We, we, we'll watch it from, I mean it's, I'm saying this now because we just went through a pandemic, so we're still like, everything is still like very restricted and everything. Yeah. we're still like, you know, obviously you know, but we, we would normally watch it from like a green room in, in the building that would be like, you know, where everyone would just kind of meet up and watch the show.

Michael Jamin:

Right. See what works and what doesn't work.

Jesse McLaren:

Is there a posts the pandemic? It's

Michael Jamin:

You know, do you talk about it afterwards? Or like, are you done once the show's done? Do you all go home? What what's next?

Jesse McLaren:

I think so. I mean, for the, for me, for the writers, like the staff writers, that's pretty much then you're just getting ready for the next day. Uhhuh you know I'm sure for the producers and other people on the show, it's a different story that, you know, but for us who have the easiest job, because we're our, you know, like I said before, the pressure for us is done in the morning. That's when we really have to get, you know, our ideas out and everything. Are there not as much sweating at that point?

Michael Jamin:

Are there many In my mind it's mostly a young, young person's game that there aren't, and I could be totally wrong about this, but there aren't, are there, are there many like people maybe my age who are still writing for, for late night? Or do they move on the

Jesse McLaren:

Things? No, I think for sure.

Michael Jamin:

Oh yeah. Yeah. I mean, obviously Robert smis like the famous guy, but I, I didn't know like what kind of, you know, did these guys, did they bounce around from show to show? Is that how it works?

Jesse McLaren:

No, I don't know. Cause I think a lot of these shows are pretty like, you know the writer, there's not a lot of writing turnover. Some of them I think there are, but you know, where I've worked at Colbert and came, there's not as much turnover. And I think, yeah. The age ranges, you know, are pretty significant. You know, I think that at Colbert there's writers who have been there for since I interned there in 2008 who are still writing for him and Right. 

Michael Jamin:

Interesting. 

Jesse McLaren:

Yeah,

Michael Jamin:

So I mean, cuz you, I don't wanna,

Jesse McLaren:

I don't wanna name anyone as the old guy or something.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, I know.

Jesse McLaren:

That's cool. Definitely different. Yeah.

Michael Jamin:

But they've been around the block. You must get their stories. Hey, what was it like writing for Jack Benny? I mean, you must, you must want to get their, their stories out of them, right? You know?

Jesse McLaren:

Yeah, absolutely. Like, yeah, there's writers who I, you know, didn't realize, you know, there'd be a sketch that I watched when I was 15, I thought was the funniest thing in the world. And you can find out that they, you know, my buddy wrote it and you're like, oh, that's so fucking cool. Or

Michael Jamin:

That's great. Yeah. Yeah. So your goal is basically that you want this to be your career forever until you're done?

Jesse McLaren:

Is that, yeah. I don't think it's sustainable, but it is. Like, I would just, you know, I'm just really love late night. It's like why

Michael Jamin:

Do you think it's not sustainable though?

Jesse McLaren:

I, well, I just think it's tough. You know? I think it's so much of getting a job in late night is luck. No. So, and I'm a pessimist in general, so the fact that I've got this job, I was like, you know,

Michael Jamin:

But at this point you're proven. I mean, you've proven yourself. I mean, I don't know. I mean, I mean, I don't know. Right. You've, I imagine you've made contacts, you've proven yourself. If you were to start on another show tomorrow for a different post, you know I don't know. Like I I'm sure you'd be like, okay, I know how to do this job. Right?

Jesse McLaren:

Yeah. I'm sure. Like, it's interesting, you know, we'll have a guest host on over the summer and it'll be like a really wide range of Right. Personalities. Like RuPaul David Spade, an actor who isn't an entertainer in that way, who, you know, just were kind of like a movie star. And it's like, you'll see some people, like, your jokes just do not,

Michael Jamin:

They don't how to deliver like Yeah,

Jesse McLaren:

Yeah. Not that now how to deliver it. They just don't pick your jokes. They just, your humor doesn't match up with them. And some of them are like people. You are your comedic heroes and you're just like, ah.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah.

Jesse McLaren:

So it's, it's, and I think it's, it is a little bit of a diced role too. Like if you you know, matching your writer with your hosts sensibilities and stuff, it's kind of like there's a tricky thing there. So I think there's a lot of, there's a lot of like just luck that goes into ending up at one of these jobs and having it really, really click.

Michael Jamin:

Well, what would you, what do you imagine is going on with the James Cordon writers? Like when, you know, cuz obviously they're all, they're outta work. What, what do you think is going through their minds? You know,

Jesse McLaren:

I don't know. I mean, I think everyone has a different, like writers are all so weird people. They all come from like, not everyone is like me, say like, I wanna do this forever. Like, some people are like, well, I'm gonna go back into this business. Some people are standups and they'll go do standups. Some people

Michael Jamin:

Do you think some people wanna go back into like, like a corporate or something? Like some regular business?

Jesse McLaren:

Yeah, I think I, I feel like I've seen writers, like, especially from when I was at Colbert so long ago, just like, you know, end up leaving and doing things like in other genres, right. Children's stuff. Like, or just, you know, just kind of like, not necessarily stay in comedy day, late nights, stay in writing even. Right. So, I don't know, I, I couldn't speak for the court and writers and I think there was a lot of people who yeah, like had to stand up and do other forms of of comedy that, you know,

Michael Jamin:

Do you have, like, do you have a process or do you have a way of looking at the world or opening your mind to think of funny things? You know, is there, what's, how do you pro do you approach any, I mean, I have my own thoughts, but I wanna know what your thoughts are.

Jesse McLaren:

Yeah, I, I think I do things an analytically uhhuh or I, I, I, I write in the least funny way, you know? What does that mean? You know, when I, like when I first started at this job, I to have to, I've never had to like write 20 jokes in the morning, that kind of thing. And that, that was the main thing. I was like, I I'm not gonna be able to do it. I'm not gonna be able to do it.

Michael Jamin:

Mm.

Jesse McLaren:

And I would like literally write a post-it of like, ways to view possible, ways to get a joke out of a news story. Okay, I lost that post now. Like now I don't need that. But at that time I was like, cuz if I'm gonna need to write like three to four jokes out of just, and some news stories are just inherently not funny at all. Not only, you know, serious, but some of 'em are like, sometimes our topics for jokes will be the Dodgers are up in game two of the World Series and that's, you have to write jokes about that. And then the next night it's the Do Dodgers are up three in game three of the World Series and you have to write jokes about that. And it's like, how

Michael Jamin:

Do you go about doing that? What's, okay? So can you walk me through that? That sounds horrible. . Like, I don't know what's funny about

Jesse McLaren:

That. Yeah, yeah. It's the thing. So it's just like, you have to think what cities are, what city are they playing? Also sports is my weakest area, right? It's like, what city are they playing? Okay la And you know, and you're just like, St. Louis, what can we make, you know, just whatever it is, whatever. If it's the NBA or wherever, like what are any associations between these two cities that someone, that there's some connection that you can make like, you know one celebrity who maybe lived in famously lived in just something, you know, and like, but something I maybe missed yesterday. You know, like it's tough. Yeah. Those are,

Michael Jamin:

I would think that's really tough. Like yeah, I, I might strike out on doing that. I really do. I really might. Like shit, I, I don't know. You're on your own, like, because I don't, you don't have a strong enough attitude or is it enough? Yeah, there's no, there's no attitude behind it. It's almost fact, you know? Yeah.

Jesse McLaren:

And if I have like two hours all my jo, most of my jokes will be in the last 10 minutes every time no matter what.

Michael Jamin:

Really?

Jesse McLaren:

That's, yeah.

Michael Jamin:

Do do. Where do you do? So

Jesse McLaren:

I think a lot of

Michael Jamin:

Couch on the desk. Do you have a place you go?

Jesse McLaren:

Yeah, I'll do it on the couch or yeah. When I first started I was doing coffee shops just to force myself to like be somewhere Uhhuh . I have like, you know, I have a d d too. It's like any, you know, I have to really focus and I have to really force myself to focus sometimes. Cause it's so easy to just say, I'm just gonna like look at my phone. Or do you know?

Michael Jamin:

Are you able to turn it off though? I imagine like on, on a Saturday or Sunday big news story, you go, oh shit, this, we know we're gonna be talking about this on Monday.

Jesse McLaren:

Yeah,

Michael Jamin:

Definitely. And do you start making notes or you're like, ah, I'm off the clock

Jesse McLaren:

, I'll make notes for sure. But that's actually really helpful because you know, if something just pops into your head on a Saturday of a story that, you know, you'll be talking about Monday, right? Like, I I did it. I got, I got something I know is like gonna be really funny to pitch on Monday. Right? So it's actually a little bit of a relief. It's not like, oh, I can't stop thinking about work. It's like, oh, now I don't have to stress Sunday night or whatever. It's like I know that well I'm gonna go into Monday with something I think is, is strong.

Michael Jamin:

So for you it's almost like solving a puzzle Sounds like joke writing.

Jesse McLaren:

Yeah. A little bit. Yeah.

Michael Jamin:

Do you have, do you do any other kinds of writing though?

Jesse McLaren:

Not much. You know, I do a little bit of like, just do, I've written like specs and stuff like that for fun to grow that muscle. Right. But really, it's mostly like joke writing and that is the, the main writing I do. And especially cuz you know, it is these, the job is a lot. It's demanding, you know, when the show is on, it's like, you know,

Michael Jamin:

And I noticed cuz you still post a on, on Twitter and TikTok a little. But has that fallen by the wayside for you? I mean, you're busy.

Jesse McLaren:

Yeah, I think a little bit for sure. Like one when the show is on on and you don't wanna tweet something that would've been Right. Funny on the show, you know? Right. that doesn't do anything for you. And, and to an extent, like, you know, Twitter was always my end goal was always working in, in comedy and working and getting paid to write jokes and Right. I've done that and, you know, so it's like, I doesn't really, you know, the more Twitter now is just more for fun or whatever, Uhhuh . But yeah. That's why, you know, when you ask how often you tweet, like back when I was really hungry for trying to get a late night job, I would be really, anytime I saw a news story, I would just try to get the funniest joke as early as I could.

Michael Jamin:

Right. You want Right. You wanna be first. Exactly. How do you, how do the, do you think the other writers mostly break in packets or unconventional ways?

Jesse McLaren:

I think all, all sorts of ways. I mean, everybody you know, it's like a, it's, I don't know who said this, but I, I I've heard, you know, someone describe a writer's room, especially in late night as like a superhero team where everyone has their own like superpower. You have some people who are just really good political writers and can be sat tired, really, if some people who are just really strong standups and can write like, you know, barbs and that kind of thing that are like, you know Right. Getting strong, like gross kind of jokes. And that's just, do you

Michael Jamin:

Feel your, what do you feel your specialty is?

Jesse McLaren:

I don't, I think, I think bits is what I always feel the most comfortable in. And, you know, that kind of thing of uhhuh doing something with video. And anything with's. Like, you know, if I see video, especially just having worked in TV for as long and that and that kind of thing, I just can know like, that footage of Biden doing this, we can add this to

Michael Jamin:

It. Right. So you think very great

Jesse McLaren:

Screen.

Michael Jamin:

You think very visually then what's the, what am I looking at? Not what am not, what am I listening to? What am I watching?

Jesse McLaren:

Right. Yeah. I think so. Yeah. And over the years I've, you know, gotten more into the joke writing itself and you know, I really love writing jokes, but I think the strongest area for me is definitely this kind of visual things. For

Michael Jamin:

Sure. Now what's your takeaway when you write something and it bombs, they pick it and it bombs .

Jesse McLaren:

Yeah. That's always, and that happens. It's, yeah, I don't know. I think that with our show, the good thing about it being fast paced is by the next day you don't remember.

Michael Jamin:

Right, right.

Jesse McLaren:

Just the way, like there's, I've never had something over the next day. I'm like, oh my God. You know? And I'm just like, okay, well that didn't go great. And then you, you just avoid doing whatever that did wrong. If you could figure

Michael Jamin:

Out, are you hugely embarrassed? To me, it's when I pitch something and it bombs to me, it's funny. I'm like, I just like, wow, guess I'm diluted. But I guess, but do you feel that way too? Or you just, oh my God, I'm I'm gonna be fired ?

Jesse McLaren:

No, I never think I'm gonna be fired. Cause in the end it's like, you know, like none of us knew if anything like the joke was picked, like we thought maybe it would work. So it's more, it feels like it's not just on you. Right. And nothing's ever like bombs to like, it's like people are like booing, you know?

Michael Jamin:

.

Jesse McLaren:

That's funny. You like when people boo. Cause that's at least, that's fun. But it's never just like dead silence. Especially in that kind of environment. But you do have things sometimes that just don't work great. For sure. Like, you just, and it's always just like, we just didn't have, you know, it's like, let's make a movie trailer for the new Guardians, the Galaxy, but we'll make it like, and it's just like, all right, that's not gonna look that great if we're gonna have it done in three hours. Yeah.

Michael Jamin:

Right, right.

Jesse McLaren:

I think we could do it and just doesn't quite work. It is like, should have worked, but, you know, maybe it just, if it needed another hour love or, but who's

Michael Jamin:

Doing, I mean, are you, do you have a producer that you generally work with? Because that would be the producer's job is to put something like that together, right?

Jesse McLaren:

Yeah. I mean, as a writer you oversee that kind of stuff with directors and producers. Oh, okay. And it's always like, you know, you know, if something wasn't ready for error, you wouldn't air it. Like, if there's no Right, you know, you do make those determinations, sometimes you will say, Hey, you know what, we have an hour left on this. It's not gonna make it like, it's not worth, let's make, let's say this for tomorrow. Or just didn't work.

Michael Jamin:

Do you have advice for, for people trying to, who would either wanna break in or try to become good joke writers or what, you know, what are your, what advice, wisdom can you share?

Jesse McLaren:

I, you know, for me it's like, you know, this, the advice I got you know, when I was at Colbert, someone, they read my packet and that was a really nice thing that they did for their staff members. Mm-Hmm. If you're like a PA and you submit a packet, they at least read it and give you some feedback. One thing they said is they, they told me is find a way to get feedback. Do stand up, find a way where you're actually reading these jokes yourself, Uhhuh yourself. And, you know, for me, I think that, you know and I'm sure like any standup comedian would roll their eyes at this, but for me, that was Twitter because that is the place where I figured out I got reception. If a joke was really bad, if it was really funny, I would at least get some kind of like, okay, this is, this kind of joke is funnier.

You know? And I think just forcing yourself to get some feedback finding yourself, whether that's performing live or some way on the internet like I did. Finding a way that you have to actually be accountable for your jokes. And it's not just throwing them out into a void. Mm-Hmm. . Because, you know, I think that's why when I wrote packets when I was a lot younger, I thought there was the funniest thing in the world. How could they not hire me? And I read it now and I'm like, yeah, of course they didn't hire me. Yeah.

Michael Jamin:

Right.

Jesse McLaren:

This is really good,

Michael Jamin:

You know? Cause since you, you mentioned it, I I dunno if you heard of my, my first job, I worked with a guy named Marsh McCall, who was the head writer on Conan. I think that's season one. Have you heard of him?

Jesse McLaren:

Marsh? 

Michael Jamin:

Well, he died a few years ago, but Oh,

Jesse McLaren:

Okay. Yeah.

Michael Jamin:

But he was the head writer. He was the head writer in Conan. He gave me some great advice for joke writing when I was on Just shoot me the first season. And he said, if everyone's going this way to get to the joke, go that way. You know what I'm saying? Like, don't try to, whatever path it looks like is the natural way to get the laugh, find somewhere else, because you're never gonna, everyone else is going that way. They'll be, they're gonna beat you. You gotta find your own path. Do you think that, do you think the same way?

Jesse McLaren:

No, I don't think that, I mean, I, I think that's good advice, but I think for someone as for someone like me, I wouldn't see that until after the fact. I would write jokes first and then when I edit it, you know, like, like I said, I think I've gotten better at editing. That's when I would maybe see that of like, I just know that this is a good joke.

Michael Jamin:

But, you know, well, let me see this though, because sometimes I, sometimes on social media, someone will say something and I'm like, oh, I got the perfect response. And then I'll scroll down the comments and I'll see, has anyone said this yet? Yeah. And if someone's already said it, I feel embarrassed for myself. At first I feel relieved that I didn't write it down and embarrassed that I, that I didn't do better than that. You know?

Jesse McLaren:

Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's why Well, that's why I'd always be after. Yeah. And after a while you start to like, just know that that's gonna be that thing. Like something happens, you know, you already know before you look in the replies, everyone's already made this joke for sure.

Michael Jamin:

Yes. Right. And so you gotta Yeah. If, if it's that easy, don't do it. Find , but Yeah.

Jesse McLaren:

And, but sometimes it's like, it's just clearly it's that, it's that because it's the funniest joke and it's like, you know it's unavoidable almost sometimes. Right. You know, when, you know, I think about things like, things like, you know, the Rudy Giuliani landscape, four Seasons, landscaping things. Like, there was just some things that were like, you know everyone was making the same jokes, but you just kind of had to because it just kind of called for it.

Michael Jamin:

Right.

Jesse McLaren:

But yeah, for the most part, I think that I just try to, you know, I'll write eight jokes for something, six of which aren't even like, like, would be embarrassing if everyone even read it. It's just like trying to just get some kind of thought out. Right. And you have two and maybe one out of the two you're like, I think that's the strong point of view. That's something that no one else would've thought of or

Michael Jamin:

Right. So sometimes just you, you actually have to just write it down. Yeah. And move on to the next one and then edit yourself later just so that you can get to the joke. Right. Just so you can find it.

Jesse McLaren:

Yeah. I'll do a lot of just vomit of like, like just write eight, just thoughts about this story. Right. Even if they're not, especially if they're not playing, just write anything you want. And then, you know, sometimes just that statement is the, is the joke or, you know, but yeah.

Michael Jamin:

It's so interesting. Yeah. Jesse tell people, I wanna thank you so much for, for giving me all your time. I think I, this to me is so interesting. I, I'm fascinated by what you guys do. It's a world I know nothing about. So, but, but tell people how they can follow you or find you on, you know, social media if they wanna be. I think you're gonna get a bunch of new fans now.

Jesse McLaren:

Oh, well, yeah. I'm Nick, Jesse on Twitter. As long as we're still all on Twitter and yeah. And that's, you know, that's pretty much where I post most things. Do,

Michael Jamin:

Do you worry about that going? Yeah, as long as we're still on Twitter. I mean, do you worry about starting from scratch if we all decide to go to some other platform?

Jesse McLaren:

I did it first, but now at this point I'm just like, let's just do it. You

Michael Jamin:

Think, why do you feel that way?

Jesse McLaren:

I don't know. Cause I think when we go to a new thing like Blue Sky, you start toing. Oh, the people I like find me and I find them, you know?

Michael Jamin:

But Are you on Blue Sky? Not yet. You I am,

Jesse McLaren:

I am on Blue Sky. You got

Michael Jamin:

Preapproved because it's hard to get approved.

Jesse McLaren:

Yeah, I shamelessly tweeted I does anyone have a Blue Sky code? See exactly what it, I don't know what my name is on it, but I think it's just Mick, Jesse on that too, by . Does anyone have a Blue Sky Code? And one person messaged me and was like, I do. And then I, I got on that way.

Michael Jamin:

And they gave you their code?

Jesse McLaren:

Yeah. I, I just don't know how the invite codes work on Blue Sky. And like, I had, like, it says under your name, like in by code, then it says zero. And then like, after like a couple weeks now it says I have one. And I'm like, oh, I have one now. Wow. Like, I'm giving that to my wife or like, you know, whoever wanted one,

Michael Jamin:

Whoever wants one. But you're not, you're not really on it yet, or are you?

Jesse McLaren:

I, yeah, some, yeah, a little bit. Yeah. But it's, it's pretty good. It's like the most closest. It's the closest to Twitter. I think I've, we've found.

Michael Jamin:

But you're not worried, I mean, you don't have nearly as many followers on Blue Sky as you do on Twitter,

Jesse McLaren:

Right? Yeah. But at the same time, it's like the Twitter followers. Like I have over a million followers and I feel like if you tweet something that's not funny, it still gets like 11 likes and that's it. You know, like it's kind of

Michael Jamin:

Of what On, on, on Twitter you mean?

Jesse McLaren:

Yeah. I think that like really the

Michael Jamin:

People have disappeared.

Jesse McLaren:

Yeah. Or just that, that's just always the way it is. Like, it's like, I think it, the algorithm, the way it works just to like, it shows the tweet to like X amount of people, 10 people. If none of them engage with Right. People look at it or care, then it just doesn't show it to more people. Right. So I think, you know, I don't know. I think that, so it's just as long as you have a network of funny people and if that's what you wanna do comedy you have funny people that follow you and you follow them back. And then I think if you move to a new platform, you could still find a good audience to like, share funny things.

Michael Jamin:

Interesting. Right. Okay. Yeah. So again, you're making a case for getting out there, you know, making friends with people and, and getting close to the job you want. Yeah. Yeah.

Jesse McLaren:

Right. Yeah. And yeah, and, and working in TV really helped too. For sure. Yeah. Right. Yeah.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. Exactly. You started at the bottom. Good for you. I'm impressed, Jesse, you, you did it . Yeah,

Jesse McLaren:

You did it well. Yeah, it was nice meeting you on the picket line and it was a pleasure. I recognize you from TikTok cause I think you come up in my algorithm all the time. Cause I'm always looking at any kind of screenwriting or comedy things. So you'll pop up and I say, oh, I know that.

Michael Jamin:

That's great man. I want to thank you again so much for taking your time. It was a great talk. I really appreciate this. All right

Jesse McLaren:

Everyone. Yeah. Thank you for having me on.

Michael Jamin:

Thank you. Big round of applause for Jesse. Go follow him on TikTok or Twitter to anywhere. We'll see wherever, wherever he goes next. . Wherever it is. All right, buddy. Thank you so much. Great talk everyone. Until next week, keep following me. I post check out my newsletter, Michael jamon.com/watch list from, have my best my content sent to you. All right. Until next week keep writing. Thanks.

Phil Hudson:

This has been an episode of Screenwriters Need to Hear This with Michael Jamin and Phil Hudson. If you're interested in learning more about writing, make sure you register for Michael's monthly webinar michaeljamin.com/webinar.

If you found this podcast helpful, consider sharing it with a friend and leaving us a five star review on iTunes.

For free screenwriting tips, follow Michael Jamin on social media @MichaelJaminWriter.

You can follow Phil Hudson on social media @PhilAHudson. This podcast was produced by Phil Hudson. It was edited by Dallas Crane. Music by Ken Joseph. Until next time, keep writing.

Franchesca Ramsey, also known as Chescaleigh, is an American comedian, activist, television, and YouTube personality, and actress who has appeared on MTV and MSNBC. Join Michael Jamin and Francheca as they explore her path to success, lessons learned, and what it takes to make it in Hollywood.

Franchesca Ramsey's Personal Site - https://www.franchesca.net/

Franchesca Ramsey on Wikipedia - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franchesca_Ramsey

Franchesca Ramsey on Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/chescaleigh/

Franchesca Ramsey on TikTok - https://www.tiktok.com/@franchesca_leigh

Franchesca Ramsey on Twitter - https://twitter.com/chescaleigh

Franchesca Ramsey (00:00:00):

No. You, you never, you never know. And, you know, on the topic of Nose and Failures, I went to the red carpet for the Emmy's in 2008 and I swore that was gonna be my big break. I thought, I was like, I'm never going back to the chamber. Like I, I remember my boss.

Michael Jamin (00:00:15):

So you went as what?

Franchesca Ramsey (00:00:17):

As I was a red carpet reporter for.com. Oh yeah. I was on the red carpet. I interviewed like Kathy Griffin and Neil Patrick Harris. And I sang with Josh Groin. Like I had the best time. Right. And then I had to fly back to Florida and go to work. And I was heartbroken. I thought I was gonna get an agent. I thought I was gonna, I just thought like, this is it. I'm, I'm making it. And I did not make it.

Michael Jamin (00:00:42):

You're listening to Screenwriters. Need to hear this with Michael Jamin.

(00:00:50):

Hey everyone, it's Michael Jamin. Welcome back to another episode of Screenwriters. Need to hear this. I have a wonderful special guest today and she's extremely inspiring. And if you want to be a screenwriter, you need to hear how this woman broke in because it floored me. I'm here with Franchesca Ramsey and she has all, she's a multi-talented person cause she's an actor or writer performer. But she started as a YouTuber.

Franchesca Ramsey (00:01:13):

I started on the internet. It's honestly, it still blows my mind when I say it. But the internet opened so many doors for me and I could not be more proud of the career that it's helped me build.

Michael Jamin (00:01:26):

And you have so much. But I think what's most, like, I wanna talk about all your successes, but to me, what I really interested by are all the failures that led up to your

Franchesca Ramsey (00:01:35):

Success,

Michael Jamin (00:01:36):

. Cause this is not overnight. No. that you made it.

Franchesca Ramsey (00:01:39):

No, absolutely not. And I really try to be transparent about those things because I know how it is when you're on the other side and you're watching people have all of these wins and you're comparing yourself to them and you're suing that everything is going their way. And the reality is, more oftentimes than not, there are so many nos behind the scene before they got to the yeses that you're getting to watch and experience. Right. So I, I've had a lot of them. ,

Michael Jamin (00:02:09):

We're gonna go through 'em, but lemme just tell everyone how we met. Cuz we only met on, on Friday. On Friday. I'm not big on Twitter, but I checked it for some reason, fate told me to check it. And someone had tagged me in a tweet saying, there are two screenwriters you need to follow me and you and your your, your Twitter is tr is is Cheche

Franchesca Ramsey (00:02:26):

Lee. Yeah,

Michael Jamin (00:02:27):

Chely. Which is, which is Lee's probably your middle name.

Franchesca Ramsey (00:02:29):

Lee is my middle name. Yeah.

Michael Jamin (00:02:31):

Okay. And so they tagged me and you and I, I didn't know you, so I was like, oh, look at her. And I clicked on your link and then I, and I realized, oh, what, you got a huge following and you have some interesting, you talk about interesting things. So I follow you. And then later that day, literally that day, I'm picketing cuz run, strike the Disney lot. And then you call out to me cuz you recognized me.

Franchesca Ramsey (00:02:49):

Yeah. Oh my God. I mean, I, I mean I, so I started following you on TikTok. It's been a while. I'm still pretty new to TikTok. I think I've only been on there like a year. I'd begrudgingly joined. I was one of those mm-hmm. . and so there's not a lot of TV people on there. Right. And the thing that I was saying to you at the Disney lot was, I appreciate that you have demystified the, the process and the business because there are a lot of people who love and enjoy television, talking about the business, and yet they have never worked in the business. And you come from a place of, yeah, I have sold shows. I've worked in hit series. I, you know, you've done so many things. And just being able to see someone who knows what they're talking about, but again, is making it accessible, is really inspiring. And it really is in line with the ethos of my work.

Michael Jamin (00:03:39):

And and you do all of that. I wanna talk about, jeez. Well, actually, actually, I should probably say how everyone knows you. Okay. Yes. You've done a ton. You first of all, you were a correspondent on the Nightly Show with, with Larry Wilmore, who Yes. It's funny I know so many writers and he, I, I think of him as a sitcom writer because he's written, he's a writer. Yeah. But he's also a performer's. Like you're singing yourself. He's a multi-talented person, but also decoded on m comedy Central. Mm-Hmm.

Franchesca Ramsey (00:04:05):

Mtv. Mtv. Decoded. Oh,

Michael Jamin (00:04:06):

Mtv. Yeah. Okay. I, Carly, which you did one season on Yeah.

Franchesca Ramsey (00:04:09):

The reboot. I, yeah, I did the first season of the reboot.

Michael Jamin (00:04:12):

Right. And that must have been, oh, I don't wanna talk about that. Yeah,

Franchesca Ramsey (00:04:16):

Yeah.

Michael Jamin (00:04:16):

We'll talk about that. We're gonna get into all that. You, you wrote for the Oscars in 2020. Mm-Hmm. you were, you were recurring on superstores an actor, right?

Franchesca Ramsey (00:04:24):

I was, yeah. I was recurring, recurring for 12 episodes in season six.

Michael Jamin (00:04:28):

Wow. That's, that's, that's,

Franchesca Ramsey (00:04:29):

Yeah. And I did that and I did that while I was a writer, producer on iCarly. So I had They didn't let you leave? They did let me leave. And I had many a times that I was on set at five o'clock in the morning to shoot, to go to shoot a superstore. And then I still had to get my outline and on time , and I did it. Oh my God.

Michael Jamin (00:04:51):

But, but Oh, and but you started mm-hmm. , even before this, you had a, you had a viral video Yeah. That went on YouTube.

Franchesca Ramsey (00:04:58):

Yeah. So I, I started making YouTube videos when I was in college. Not to date myself Right. But my senior year of college, YouTube was founded and I started making YouTube videos. And I had my very first viral video in 2012, which was Shit, white Girls Say to Black

Michael Jamin (00:05:15):

Girls. Oh, you started, but you didn't start in 2012.

Franchesca Ramsey (00:05:17):

When did you start? No, I started in, I started in 2006.

Michael Jamin (00:05:20):

And then, right. So you had many, you did years of not making viral

Franchesca Ramsey (00:05:25):

Videos. Yes, yes, yes, yes. I was working as a graphic designer. I worked I worked in beauty and fashion mostly. So I worked at Maybelline, I worked in the package department. I was Photoshopping eyelashes on packages. The mascara does not make your eyelashes that long. , that was me. And then I also worked at Anne Taylor and I was working at Ann Taylor when I went viral in 2012.

Michael Jamin (00:05:50):

But did you not, did you, like when you were in high school, in college, did you want, I mean, guess, did you wanna

Franchesca Ramsey (00:05:55):

Be a writer performer? Yeah, no, actually I wanted to be an actor. I went to a performing arts middle and high school. There are a number of alumni from my high school. The person that most people know is Eric Andre. He's a comedian. Right. He was a year older than me. And there are a lot of us from my high school that are still in the business. And I went to college for acting. I went to the University of Michigan, but I left largely because I was struggling after losing my acting scholarship. I had a scholarship my first year, my second year I didn't. And I got a job. Did

Michael Jamin (00:06:26):

They, could you a scholarship for only one year? Is

Franchesca Ramsey (00:06:28):

That how works? Well, it was so it was not a need-based scholarship, meaning that it was not based on your parents' income. It was a talent based scholarship. So I auditioned for the school. I got a scholarship my first year. And then after that, the whole faculty voted on who got the scholarship. And because I was only a sophomore, I didn't know everybody. So most of the people that got the scholarship the next year were like juniors and seniors. So I was working part-time at school. I worked for the School of Public Health. I was working on their website. I was a self-taught designer had a bootleg of Photoshop and I'd gone to H T M L camp in middle school. And so I was like uploading files and shit, and I was getting paid 20 bucks an hour. And I was like, yo, this is it. I was like, maybe I should be a graphic designer. . So I left Michigan, moved back to Florida, which is where I'm from, and went to design school and was Oh, really? Studying graphic design. Yeah. And, you know, just I always kept a blog. I'd had a website since middle school. And when YouTube came out, I was like, yo, this is, this is really neat. But

Michael Jamin (00:07:34):

This was just cuz you wanted personal expression.

Franchesca Ramsey (00:07:37):

Yeah. I just thought it was cool. I'd always, I was on live journal and I had dreadlocks at the time, and so I was always like taking photos of my hairstyles and like doing tutorials and just writing about my daily life. I mean, before, before there were digital cameras, I had like a scanner. And so I would go and get my photos developed and then I would scan them and I would post them on my little website. And it was just, I've always been a journaler. I've always like really loved, like just keeping track of my life. I am an only child, so I, I just like, I, that's just always been my form of expression. And so when YouTube came out, I felt like it was the perfect combination of all the things I was already interested in. Right. So I started making YouTube videos in 2006.

Michael Jamin (00:08:21):

But, and some of those, cause I went, I I scrolled down. You got a long list.

Franchesca Ramsey (00:08:24):

Yeah. I have so many .

Michael Jamin (00:08:26):

And some of them were just like, oh, here's, here's how I do my hair. And here's like, yeah. But then you started venturing off into more scripted, you know,

Franchesca Ramsey (00:08:33):

Compliment stuff. Yeah. I mean, so honestly what happened was I was watching Eric become a successful standup, and I remember him calling me and him saying, there are no black girls in New York doing standup. And I was like, really? And he was like, yeah. Oh my, this is my bad Eric. He's like, yeah, yeah, yeah. You got it. You got you. They're so funny. You should be doing this. And I was like, oh, I don't know. Like, I've never done standup. Right. And so I got a copy of the Comedy Bible, which is a great book that I recommend. Okay. And I used it to write my first standup set and was doing comedy in, in Miami and was making sketches and trying to promote my comedy career via YouTube. And

Michael Jamin (00:09:14):

Was that working? I mean,

Franchesca Ramsey (00:09:15):

Yeah, it was. I mean, I was, it's so interesting because where we are with social media is just like, it just feels so accessible now. But like back in my day, I didn't know anyone that had a website. Right. And I had business cards that had my website, my YouTube on them, and I would go to comedy shows and I would say like, oh, you should watch my YouTube channel and like, get on my email list. And, you know, when I would do competitions at the Hollywood Improv, like I would send out emails and I would say, please come to my shows. And did people I Yeah, they did, they did

Michael Jamin (00:09:51):

Come. So these are your fans would come basically people who were on your email list? Just

Franchesca Ramsey (00:09:55):

People that I would, I would, I would, if you met me somewhere, I was asking you to be on my email list. Really. And after I graduated college, I got a job as the communications manager at the Miami Beach Chamber of Commerce. So I was doing all of their graphics and PR stuff. And so I was learning how to write press releases. And so like, I was using that to build my online community for my YouTube channel. Right. And I, yeah. And I entered a YouTube contest in 2008, I guess. Yeah. 2008. It was the Red Carpet Reporter contest. Really? And I went to the Emmy's. Yeah. And I I You,

Michael Jamin (00:10:33):

You entered and you won?

Franchesca Ramsey (00:10:34):

I entered and I won. And I, I , I really used the things I learned at the Chamber. Like I sent out a press release about myself, , to like, local news. And news was on like my local news. Wow. I threw a party so people would vote for me. Like .

Michael Jamin (00:10:52):

So this is like, it was a lot. Cause so many people say, well, you know, how do I get an agent? How do I, people expect agents, managers, producers to make their career. And that's not what you are doing. No,

Franchesca Ramsey (00:11:03):

No.

Michael Jamin (00:11:03):

You're doing it yourself and you're not asking for permission, you're doing it.

Franchesca Ramsey (00:11:07):

No, I, working at the Chamber was really eye-opening for me because I learned so much about the power of networking. Right. I always had business cards. Every time I would meet someone like a tip that I learned was I would keep a little sharpie in my bag and I would write a interesting tidbit about them on their, on their business card. And then I would email them and I would talk about something that they had said to me. So like, if you said, oh, I gotta leave for my kid's soccer game, I would email you and I'd say, it was really great meeting you at the, the Coffee with the President event. I hope your kid, you know, killed the soccer game. You know, some, just something like that. And then people would be like, oh my gosh, she was so thoughtful. Like, yeah.

Michael Jamin (00:11:44):

But these are people who you, you don't, are are these people that you think that can help you? Like, who are these people you're meeting that you want their business card, that you wanna wanna email them? No, they're

Franchesca Ramsey (00:11:52):

Not, they're not people that I think can help me. Like, I, I just think of it as, you know, when you meet someone and you connect with them, it's not necessarily that they're gonna help you get further mm-hmm. . But like, if, if we have a connection and we like each other, like maybe there's a world in which we work together, or Yeah. I've got this, I'm doing this contest and I need as many votes as possible. And I met you at an event and we got along, or I'm doing standup now and I'm like, Hey, you know, remember I was kind of funny when we met, like come to the standup,

Michael Jamin (00:12:22):

But how often would you, if you met, I don't know, let's say, I don't know how many people we've met in a month, let's say it's a dozen. How often are you contacting them to stay in touch to let them know they're

Franchesca Ramsey (00:12:32):

Live? So I was, so, so again, I was working at the Miami Beach Chamber of Commerce, which is a membership organization for small businesses. Mm-Hmm. . And we would put together events. We had a weekly coffee with our president every Friday. We had dinner galas, we had golf tournaments. We would go to like, opening of businesses. Like we were doing events all the time. And at every event I was just like, hi, hey, nice to meet you. And I was just meeting as many people as possible and I was doing some of this on Company Jam. I was sending emails and being like, Hey, I met you at this event, can I put you on my email list? You know? Right. so

Michael Jamin (00:13:06):

I How did you get to be so smart about this though? I mean, like, like did someone teach you this or is this like, I'll just gonna, I like this

Franchesca Ramsey (00:13:11):

Idea. I, I will say I learned a lot from the Chamber because we had we had like a women's group and we had like a young professionals group. And because I worked at the Chamber, I was there for all of these events. And I will also add, this was my first job outta college. I am still friends with the people I worked with at the Chamber. I'm still friends with the members that, you know, I met when I did my book tour in 2018, I was able to do it at a bookstore that was one of the members of the chamber when I, you know, I was like trying to get something together. And the bookstore was like, yes, we will absolutely buy copies of your book. We remember you. Right. And right. And it's, I think oftentimes people think about networking for like, these selfish, you know, I'm gonna move forward.

(00:13:57):

Right. But if you come from a genuine place of just getting to know people and, and showing real interest, my dad always says, be interested. Not interesting. Right. Actually, just like getting to know people and connect with them, you will find that people are like, yeah, you know what? I could throw you five books. You know what? I got a place that you can host a comedy show a actually I will buy a book. Like, people wanna help you. And I was really fortunate I got that job not knowing what it was. And I say all the time, it really like laid the foundation for me when it came to the power of networking and that people like who, you know, really does help you get ahead. But it also enriches your life and your career.

Michael Jamin (00:14:38):

But how else did it help you knowing any of these people later? Like how, how else did it, you know, materially Okay. I get, yes, you had a and you could, you could do a signing at the store, but how else did it help you?

Franchesca Ramsey (00:14:50):

I think just helped me to see people that like believed in me. You know, when it was time for me to have comedy shows and stuff. And especially there's so many places where you have to ha bring 10 people. Oh, okay. You, you, you gotta do a bringer show if you're gonna get on stage. And so, you know, kind of corralling my email list to get people to come and support me when I did that YouTube contest and I needed people to vote for me. Right. I, there was a member who had a nightclub and so I threw a party at the nightclub and it was genuinely me just being like, can I throw a party here? And they were like, yeah, no problem. Your, are your friends gonna buy drinks? Right? Yes. . So I set up little laptops and I had people voting for me at the party and Wow. And I, and I won the contest.

Michael Jamin (00:15:35):

So these are just so small, little, little unexpected ways that just pay that just pay off. But you don't know how or when

Franchesca Ramsey (00:15:41):

Yeah. Pay off. No, you, you never, you never know. And, you know, on the topic of knows and failures, I went to the red carpet for the Emmy's in 2008 and I swore that was gonna be my big break. I thought, I was like, I'm never going back to the chamber. Like I, I remember my boss. Well

Michael Jamin (00:15:57):

You went as what? As

Franchesca Ramsey (00:15:59):

I was a red carpet reporter for people.com. Oh yeah. I was on the red carpet. I interviewed like Kathy Griffin and Neil Patrick Harris and mm-hmm. , I sang with Josh Groin, like I had the best time. Right. And then I had to fly back to Florida and go to work and I was heartbroken. I thought I was gonna get an agent. I thought I was gonna, I just thought like, this is it. I'm, I'm making it. And I did not make it. I went And

Michael Jamin (00:16:24):

How did you get that job to begin with? The, you know, the red carpet shop? I, because you didn't have an agent?

Franchesca Ramsey (00:16:29):

I, I entered the YouTube contest. So the

Michael Jamin (00:16:31):

Contest that was just from that.

Franchesca Ramsey (00:16:31):

Okay. Yeah. So you had to send in a video of you doing an interview. And I interviewed like my boyfriend at the time and my dog. And then I, you know, I was in the finalist and then I went on the streets of Miami Beach and I just interviewed people. Right. And and then it was voting. So then I, you know, I was doing all, I was hustling to get votes.

Michael Jamin (00:16:50):

It's so funny cause you are not shy. I mean, no, like, that's how I met. I mean, right. And good for you and good for you. I mean, who else is gonna advocate for you, if not for yourself? I think people want agents. Like they want an advocate. Well be your own advocate. How

Franchesca Ramsey (00:17:02):

About that? No. Yeah, no, it's totally true. And look, I, I, I did that red carpet reporter contest and I, you know, I was kind of thrown to the wolves in that nobody was helping me. Right. interview people. They gave me a list of potential celebrities and I watched as many shows that were nominated as possible. I wrote jokes. There was a person under the camera poking me in the leg being like, you gotta hurry it up, wrap it up, wrap it up. I was like, I don't know what I'm doing. Like, I just was going for it. And I really thought, and my videos were, they were funny, the clips were viral. I was doing great. And then nothing happened. Like, it was it,

Michael Jamin (00:17:39):

Did they ask you back the year later? Or No?

Franchesca Ramsey (00:17:41):

No. Nothing. No. They didn't even do the contest again. It just, it just was over. I thought people, people.com was like, we loved you. And I was like, great. Do you wanna hire me? And they were like, no, ,

Michael Jamin (00:17:53):

No. What makes you, why, why would you think we wanna hire you ?

Franchesca Ramsey (00:17:57):

I was so heartbroken. I moved, I moved to New York the next year, Uhhuh, and I did kind of like the little tour. Like I went to the people offices. I got all dressed up and I was like, remember me? I won that contest. And they were like, yes. When like, what, what do you want? I was like, I, I thought I would get a job. .

Michael Jamin (00:18:14):

Really? Yeah. And so then what happened? So, okay, good, good. , you got, you're here and then you fell back a couple pegs. That's fine. And then what happened?

Franchesca Ramsey (00:18:21):

Yeah, so I was kind of pounding the pavement in New York. I did all sorts of jobs. I stuffed envelopes for like a a temp agency. And, you know, I'd gone to school for graph graphic design and I was going to lots of events in New York. Like I went to social Media week in New York. Right. And I met a guy at Social media. He probably was trying to date me in, in hindsight, I had a boyfriend. Right. But I met this guy at Social Media Week and he worked for a creative temp agency. And he was like, oh, well I can help you find a job. And I was like, really? And he was like, yeah. So as this, at this temp agency, I was just doing design for a bunch of different places. So I did some design for the botanical gardens. I had to ride a hour plus train up to the freaking Bronx. Mm-Hmm. . And I was, you know, pushing pixels around for the for the botanical garden. I also worked for this place that did like a big book of I guess it was like a, it was like a fashion book that got put out every year. I, I don't really remember what it was, but I was, you know, just doing a lot of photo editing and stuff. And that's, and then I got the Maybelline job through a friend.

Michael Jamin (00:19:32):

But that wa I, I wanna, but Okay. But then all the while you're still putting out YouTube videos, right?

Franchesca Ramsey (00:19:36):

Yeah, I was still making YouTube videos. I was usually like waking up early and editing. I was stealing my neighbor's wifi so I would upload before I went to work because Uhhuh, that was when nobody was on the internet. Youtube was very slow back then. So Yeah. You to like, leave your computer uninterrupted to upload videos

Michael Jamin (00:19:57):

And, but, but pe people were slowly finding you at this point, or no?

Franchesca Ramsey (00:20:01):

Yeah. I mean, I was building a little bit of an audience cuz I was making those hairstyle videos. And remember I had had a website in middle school and high school. Right. So I had, I was building my audience. Like I was in this live journal community called, oh no they didn't, which was like a gossip community. Uhhuh . So I posted my videos there. I was in a dreadlock community called Get Up, dread Up, and I would post my hair videos there. And, but at

Michael Jamin (00:20:28):

Some point you, you decided to make a leap Cause you you had that one video that went viral.

Franchesca Ramsey (00:20:32):

Yeah, so actually before that, I entered another contest in 2011 called the YouTube Next Up Contest, Uhhuh . And and I won that contest. It was a contest to find like YouTube's next big stars. Right. And it was me and 25 other people. And we each won $35,000. Nice. And we spent a week at YouTube learning how to like better produce our videos and we got new cameras and

Michael Jamin (00:20:57):

Out here YouTube and, and my, in

Franchesca Ramsey (00:20:59):

New York? In

Michael Jamin (00:21:00):

New York. Oh, New York. Okay. Yeah. You know, my partner and I ran a show by from Renton Link.

Franchesca Ramsey (00:21:04):

Oh, well yeah. I love them.

Michael Jamin (00:21:05):

Yeah. They're, they had a show, YouTube offered them money, like a lot of money to make a sitcom and they hired us to, to be the right to run.

Franchesca Ramsey (00:21:11):

Oh, cool. Yeah. No, I love, I love them. I was in one of their, I was in the old collab video with them years ago. Oh wow. Yeah. So I got to meet so many YouTubers from that, and actually my current writing partner, I met her through the YouTube. Next up she was a freelance producer at YouTube and they put us in little teams and had us make YouTube videos, Uhhuh. And she and I, she and I really hit it off and we stayed friends. And the, the year after I did next up is when I had my first big viral video. And I really believe that next up taught me a lot about, you know, tentpole content. Like thinking about my content around holidays and special events and trending stories and finding ways to infuse my personal voice. And so I started kind of like changing my content right. Where I was just doing hair stuff. Right. And I was doing random comedy things, just being more focused.

Michael Jamin (00:22:03):

And what was your focus?

Franchesca Ramsey (00:22:04):

Well, my focus was more of looking at trends and finding ways to infuse myself in them uhhuh. And looking at what everybody's talking about and how can I put my own unique spin on it. Right. And so what happened was, there was a viral video called Shit Girls Say. Right. And it was a guy in a wig just doing a bunch of different things that girls say. And there were lots of parodies. There was like, shit, black girls say shit, moms say shit, dad say, and I was trying to figure out, I was like, I wanna do one, but I don't know what I wanna do. And I had gone home for the holidays and I was at a party, a Christmas party mm-hmm. and everyone was drinking and I was not, because I was the designated driver. And as my friends were getting drunker, people were starting to say some things to me that just were at the time things that a lot of my white suburban friends would say to me.

(00:22:57):

And I wouldn't think twice about, but because I had this video in my head, I was like, oh, maybe this is the video. People were like touching my hair and, you know, just saying things that I don't believe were coming from a bad place. Right. But I was like, something is in this. But I was like, I don't know, like, I don't know what to make this. It's like, I was like, shit black girls say, I was like, shit, white girls say, and I hate to even say it. My ex was like, maybe it should be shit white girls say to black girls. And I was like, no, that doesn't make sense. The the meme is shit. Girls say so it has to be that. And my ex was like, why, why does it have to be like that? And I was like, I dunno, I don't, I really wrestled with it. And then I thought, well, maybe that's what it'll be. So I wrote down all of the things that people had said to me. Right. I shot the video, I uploaded it before I went to work. And by lunchtime it had like a million views. And my email was just like blowing up. My phone was just like going nuts. No one at Ann Taylor knew I made YouTube videos, Uhhuh . And I was like freaking out. It was like, what? The frick is happening?

Michael Jamin (00:24:02):

Freaking out. Because you were worried you were just in trouble, Atara, or what? No,

Franchesca Ramsey (00:24:06):

No, I was just freaking out in the sense that I was feeling overwhelmed because my inbox was suddenly, you know, NPR wants to interview you and the Huffington Post wants to write something about you. Yeah. And like all of these agents and S n L reached out to me and they were like, we would love for you to audition for S N L. And I was like, what the f I was at work while this was happening. Wow. And I was like crying at my desk and, and my coworkers were like,

Michael Jamin (00:24:31):

What is all like tears of joy. No tears.

Franchesca Ramsey (00:24:33):

Yeah. Tears of joy, but also tears of like, I'm very emotional. I was very, I was just overwhelmed. Like, I don't know how to handle this. And, but

Michael Jamin (00:24:43):

That video is, is wonderful. Yeah. obviously I watched it, but were you, I mean you were making a statement?

Franchesca Ramsey (00:24:50):

Yeah. I mean, I don't think I knew I was making a statement. I thought I was just genuinely, I thought I was making a video about being from West Palm Beach, going to private school, where oftentimes I was the only black person in my class. And having my friends who were well-meaning say things to me that I knew made me feel uncomfortable, but I wasn't really sure why.

Michael Jamin (00:25:14):

You weren't sure why?

Franchesca Ramsey (00:25:15):

I wasn't sure why, but I knew I, but I knew there was something funny about it. Right. And I, and I think my surprise was realizing that I had captured a universal experience that other black people and just marginalized people in general experience where people in their lives are like, you're different from me. And they're acknowledging it in a way that is not necessarily malicious, but it does still feel uncomfortable.

Michael Jamin (00:25:39):

But, but some of them were kind of cringy. Some were like, Ooh, did someone, some of them really say that to you?

Franchesca Ramsey (00:25:45):

Like, oh my god, really? Oh my God. Yeah. Yeah. And, but that's also what was incredible to me about it is because the comments were like, this is my life. The comments were saying, I am the only black girl in my school in Idaho, and this has happened to me. And, and I'm, I'm watching these comments coming come in and realizing like, oh, I did something with this that I didn't anticipate. Yeah. I, you know, I got invited to be on Anderson Cooper. They did a whole segment about me in that video. I had never been on national television before. And, and, and I, I was like, I had no agent. I had no help. I did my own makeup, which mm-hmm. I think I did good. But like, I was like, I don't know what I'm doing. And I still

Michael Jamin (00:26:25):

Have How did your friend, how did your friends react to it though when they saw it?

Franchesca Ramsey (00:26:29):

Oh my God, they thought it was amazing. My whole, I I mean this was, but

Michael Jamin (00:26:32):

But they were the ones who said these things to you.

Franchesca Ramsey (00:26:34):

Yeah. And they were like, this is really fun. One of the girls that like was the main culprit came with, with me to Anderson Cooper .

Michael Jamin (00:26:39):

But aren't they supposed to apologize for, I mean, they're not supposed to think it's funny. They're supposed to say, I'm sorry. I said those things.

Franchesca Ramsey (00:26:45):

, you know, I, I I think it's also just a symptom of where I was in my life because at that time now we talk about privilege and microaggressions in a way that feels, you know very forward thinking and, and progressive. And in 2012, we were not. Right. And so again, while I knew that those comments made me uncomfortable, I did not have the language to explain why. Right. And I, and I did not believe my friends were malicious, and I still don't believe that they were malicious. It's just a symptom of your privilege. And that is something that people do all of the time, right? Mm-Hmm. , like straight people do that to gay people. Right. Gay bodied people do that to disabled people. Like cis people do that to trans people. It happens across every dynamic and, and every identity. And so I don't think my friends, some of them did feel like, oh my God, this makes me like look bad. Right? But I didn't have anyone that felt like, oh, Francesca hates me. Like, everybody knew I was making comedy content. Mm-Hmm. . And a lot of my friends that were sharing it across all backgrounds were like, oh my God, this has happened to me. Or Oh my God, I need to check myself. Because Right. In the context, this doesn't seem great. Right.

Michael Jamin (00:27:59):

Do Now I imagine putting yourself out there, cause I know what it's like, it exposed you to backlash too. And my

Franchesca Ramsey (00:28:07):

God. Oh my God, yes.

Michael Jamin (00:28:09):

What, what and what was that like for you the first time? And what's your advice? For me it

Franchesca Ramsey (00:28:13):

Was r it was really hard. It was really hard. So that video got about 12 million views in the first week. Right. And, you know, again, today 12 million views maybe. Doesn't seem like a lot.

Michael Jamin (00:28:24):

No, it's a lot. It's a

Franchesca Ramsey (00:28:25):

Lot. I mean, I, I, you know, TikTok, people are blowing up all the time, but it was really big for me. Right. But again, because I was talking about race, there were a lot of people that were uncomfortable and there were people that were calling me a racist. They were saying that I hate white people and you know, this is not right. And if it was reversed and, and I, for better or for worse, am very accessible. So I was in the comments, like fighting with people. I was arguing back and forth

Michael Jamin (00:28:52):

And why? So that's the thing.

Franchesca Ramsey (00:28:54):

Yeah. And I, and I do you

Michael Jamin (00:28:55):

Should you do that?

Franchesca Ramsey (00:28:57):

No, I, I think you really have to pick your battles mm-hmm. . And I think that, I think that there are some people that are always gonna dislike you no matter what. And they always have, they already have their mind made up about you. Yeah. And so you have to decide like, what is the purpose of me engaging with this person? And for me, especially on Twitter, even if I engage with someone who I disagree with, if I think I can make a broader point about the misconception, or I can clarify something, or I can use them as an example of how to better defend yourself on certain topics, I'll do it. Versus there are a lot of people I just don't engage with at all. But

Michael Jamin (00:29:37):

You, I I'm gonna guess I'm taking a wild guess though. I'm gonna guess that you've never once changed anybody's mind.

Franchesca Ramsey (00:29:45):

I dunno that that's, I don't, I I'm gonna push back and say I don't necessarily think that that's true because I got a lot of emails from people that said that I did change their minds. Really. But I think, but I think it's, again, it's also a matter of what your approach is. And it also has to be somebody who actually wants to have their mind changed. There's a difference between somebody that just wants to argue. Right. And someone who genuinely says, I don't understand this thing and I want to, and I think whether it's online or in real life, we have to be better at gauging the difference because it is a waste of your time to argue with the person who already has their mind made up. Mm-Hmm. versus to engage with the person who says, you've made me think about this differently. I'm not sure I agree yet, but I'm like close to figuring out if, if I could be.

Michael Jamin (00:30:31):

And that makes you feel good knowing that, I mean,

Franchesca Ramsey (00:30:34):

Yeah. I mean me, it's

Michael Jamin (00:30:35):

Exhausting. That's all. Yeah.

Franchesca Ramsey (00:30:37):

It is

Michael Jamin (00:30:37):

Exhausting. It really is.

Franchesca Ramsey (00:30:39):

It is exhausting. But I think what that video taught me about myself, and it really kind of shaped the direction that my content went in Yeah. Is that there's a lot of, that comedy is really powerful, that we can tell stories that we can tell the stories of people that don't necessarily see themselves represented and feel like they're being heard. We can expose people to new ideas. Mm-Hmm. , we can get people to think about the world that they inhabit and how they move through the world differently. And I realized like using comedy to talk about serious stuff is something that I wasn't seeing other people do on YouTube. And so I really started like shifting my content Yes. In that direction.

Michael Jamin (00:31:19):

That's almo. Would you say that's kind of your brand now? I mean, what? Whatever that means.

Franchesca Ramsey (00:31:23):

Yeah. It was, and I'm, I don't know. It's hard. I'm trying to get out of it if I'm being honest.

Michael Jamin (00:31:28):

Why? Okay. Yeah. Why?

Franchesca Ramsey (00:31:29):

Because it is exhausting. Because, because as a black woman moving through the world, I'm constantly being asked to justify my existence and educate people mm-hmm. and talk about serious topics all the time. Right. So then to do that for my job is, is dually exhausting. And, and I, I struggle with it because I know I'm good at it. Right. And I know it's important, but it takes a lot out of me. Yeah. It ta and, and you know, like, I'm dealing with this right now with the writer strike where I'm making a lot of content about the strike because I think it's important. But I'm also being asked and pulled and every direction where people like, explain this will tell me this, well, it makes sense, da da da da da. And I'm like, this is actually my livelihood. Like this is not just a trending topic on Twitter. Like this is about how I'm gonna continue to make a life for myself, you know?

Michael Jamin (00:32:21):

But Okay. So you're, are you're still, are you still making original content on YouTube? No. No. Why not? I think you should

Franchesca Ramsey (00:32:29):

I have, I have a, cause I, I have a complicated relationship with YouTube Uhhuh. I guess the, the best way to say it is, you know, after, after, after I went viral, I got an agent. I left my day job, I started auditioning and, and

Michael Jamin (00:32:45):

The, and the, I say want, I wanna slow it down. The agent reached out to you?

Franchesca Ramsey (00:32:49):

Yes. Yes. Okay. Yes. Okay. And I will also add that prior to that, I had made DVDs of all my standup and all my sketches, and I had mailed them out to every agent in New York. And not one person got back to me.

Michael Jamin (00:33:03):

This is exactly what Okay. So I do a, a monthly webinar, free webinar where I talk about Hollywood and how to break in, this is exactly what I talked about yesterday. Yeah. Is that you have to make them beg Yeah. If you're begging them, it's not gonna happen. Right. It's not gonna happen. Right. They have to look at you like you are, like you have dollar signs on your face Yeah. And you're a big bag of money. And when they see money on your face, they'll come after you. Yeah. Which is what they saw with you. Okay. This is

Franchesca Ramsey (00:33:27):

Someone, it was like the, it was like the year prior I had sent out those DVDs and I did not get one person to get back to

Michael Jamin (00:33:33):

You. Same person, same talent. Yeah. You just didn't have the platform yet.

Franchesca Ramsey (00:33:37):

Yeah. And then suddenly everybody wanted me. So then I, you know, I got this agent and, you know, I got the opportunity. I, I met with a manager and she said like, what's your dream? And I said, I want my own TV show. And

Michael Jamin (00:33:50):

She What kind of show, by the way?

Franchesca Ramsey (00:33:52):

Well, I didn't really know. I just knew I wanted a show. And she looked at my YouTube channel and was like, well, we should pitch like a sketch show. So I was out pitching the sketch show, nobody bought it. Mm-Hmm. . And one of the places I went to though was M T V. And M T V was like, well, we really like you. We have this show about feminism and and pop culture that's doing really well. Would you be interested in developing something similar about race? And I was like, yeah, that sounds cool. So I met with this production company called Corn Neighbor Brown. Mm-Hmm. , we started developing what then became M T v Decoded mm-hmm. . And, you know, I, Dakota has opened so many doors for me. I'm, I'm so proud of that show. But I dealt with so much harassment because of that show so much. And YouTube, for Better for worse, did not really support me. And, and I, and I, and I really struggled with that because

Michael Jamin (00:34:45):

What kind of support were you hoping to get from them?

Franchesca Ramsey (00:34:48):

Well, people were making death threats. Oh. People were taking my content and they were editing together videos of me to make me say that I hate all white men and I hate all white people. Oh my God. And I think people should die. And, and, and, and YouTube was like, well, you know, it's not a copyright violation. And I was like, how is this not a copyright violation? Like, so

Michael Jamin (00:35:07):

What do you do when that hap what do you do when that happens?

Franchesca Ramsey (00:35:10):

I mean, what I did was I ended up walking away. I mean, I did it for six years. And again, I am so thankful for all the doors that it opened, but I had to ask myself like, is this worth it in terms of what I want? And what I want is to be a comedy writer. I don't want to be a professional educator. I don't want,

Michael Jamin (00:35:29):

But I imagine you were also monetizing this from YouTube. You were making monies, right?

Franchesca Ramsey (00:35:32):

Well, it was MTV's content. So I was not making, I was making a flat rate on every episode. I was credited as executive producer because I had developed the show. So I was being paid as the host and executive produ producer, and I was paid anytime I wrote an episode mm-hmm. . And I wrote about, I'm gonna say I wrote about like 50% of the episodes, and then I got hired on the nightly show. Right. So I was on TV and I was doing Dakota at the same time. So we brought in writers. Right.

(00:36:02):

so I was making a flat rate. I wasn't making, I wasn't making a ton of money. I I I, I worked part-time jobs. I worked as a writer for Upward for three years. Mm-Hmm. , I was speaking at colleges, I was doing like little TV things here and there, but I was M T V was not paying all my bills. Right. and so when I really like took a step back and looked at where I wanted to go in my career, I was like, I just don't wanna be an internet personality for the rest of my life. Mm-Hmm. . And I don't wanna be the girl who just talks about race. And I was like, I'm glad that this is given me a platform and opened all these doors for me. But I would meet people and they would, they were surprised that I was funny. And, and I would say, well, I'm a comedian. They're like, no, you're not. I see you onde coded. And I'm like, right. Well, Dakota is like an educational show. I'm, I'm not, I'm not know. But the thing

Michael Jamin (00:36:54):

Is, people say to me, I'm afraid about, like, they're not even in the business yet. I'm afraid about being put into a box. Right. I'm afraid of about doing this one thing that getting stuck in the box. And my attitude is get in a box first. You know, you need to get work.

Franchesca Ramsey (00:37:06):

Yeah. Get in the box first. Yeah. And then

Michael Jamin (00:37:07):

You worry about getting out of the box.

Franchesca Ramsey (00:37:09):

Yeah. Right. Yeah. And I, and I would, yes, I, I agree. Like, and if, for me, I didn't know I was getting into a box. I was following what was being successful for me and what I was enjoying and what I was good at. And I did that for six years. You know, I was on the nightly show. And, and even that, like, I started for a minute. I was like, oh, I think I wanna be a late night host. And then I was realizing like, oh, this is really hard. Like mm-hmm. talking about the news and, and, and writing about news, writing about what's happening in the world and trying to put in a funny spin is just a, it's hard. It's so hard. And again, I learned so much, but I think what I really learned was, I was like, if I have a TV show one night a week, I don't wanna do five nights a week, .

Michael Jamin (00:37:51):

But even on your channel, which I poked around, I was like, oh my God. Like you interviewed Michelle Obama. I was like, what? Like what? How did that come about? ?

Franchesca Ramsey (00:37:58):

Yeah. I mean that was, that was through YouTube. I, so, because I was so active and I had won that Emmy's contest and I won that next step contest, like I had a relationship with YouTube, like I would speak at events there. Mm-Hmm. one time they had this party where they had an airplane circling LA with like celebrities. And I hosted the plane. Like I was speaking over like the, the speaker in the plane. It was so weird. It was very fun. But like, that was because of YouTube. And so they would regularly reach out to me and say like, oh, we're doing this event which you hosted, or would you speak on this panel? Or whatever. So

Michael Jamin (00:38:36):

Leaving, it must've been very hard for you because on the one hand, they were good too. You on the other hand,

Franchesca Ramsey (00:38:41):

Yeah. I mean, I wasn't getting paid for a lot of those things. Like I Oh really? No, no, it was just

Michael Jamin (00:38:45):

Exposure.

Franchesca Ramsey (00:38:46):

Yeah. It was just ex it was exposure. And that was also part of it. Like, that was me making a conscientious decision that I wasn't gonna do unpaid work anymore. Uhhuh. . But I started saying like, okay, cool. Like, you guys are happy to have to fly me out and have me speak on a panel, but I then have to run back to my hotel room and like write these articles because I'm, I don't have money. You know? And like, my visibility, I think a lot of times people think like, oh, I see you everywhere. So that must mean you're making a lot of money. That must mean you're, you're, you're crushing it. And that's just not always the case.

Speaker 3 (00:39:23):

Hey, it's Michael Jamin. If you like my videos and you want me to email them to you for free, join my watch list. Every Friday I send out my top three videos. These are for writers, actors, creative types. You can unsubscribe whenever you want. I'm not gonna spam you and it's absolutely free. Just go to michaeljamin.com/watchlist.

Michael Jamin (00:39:47):

But even on your videos of, on your YouTube videos, you were mon like, cause you can't monetize them. Yeah. You just didn't, you weren't getting a lot. That's

Franchesca Ramsey (00:39:53):

No, I wasn't, I I was never one, I was never consistent largely because I always had a regular job. Like I, I tried being a full-time YouTuber and I just, the money is so inconsistent. It's a once a month paycheck. Yeah. And you don't know how much it is because some months you have a really good month and your views are really up. Other months your views are really down. The, I don't know what they're like now, but at the time your ads did not automatically come on your video. Sometimes the ads wouldn't show up for like a day or two. Uhhuh . So if you got all your views in those first two days and then they dropped off by the time you got ads, you didn't make any money.

Michael Jamin (00:40:30):

Oh, interesting.

Franchesca Ramsey (00:40:31):

And then there's like certain times of year that were really good, I was always trying different things. Right. Like I was making Holiday vi, I made these Christmas card videos. I made these videos that you were supposed to send to people for their birthday. I did Parodies, lady Gaga came out with a song. So I did a video for like, you know, I stayed up all night like editing this video. So Yeah,

Michael Jamin (00:40:50):

You did Gwen Stefani, you sounded just like her. Yeah. I was like, that was great. I would

Franchesca Ramsey (00:40:53):

Do all these impressions and I was, I was just realizing that the amount of hours I was putting in were not, it wasn't paying off for me is what I was realizing. And that was a big part of my transition into like, I want to be in tv. Right. That's always been the goal. You know, I, I went to acting school. I didn't know I was gonna become a writer and, and I was so glad that I was doing that, but I was like, this is, I don't wanna be on YouTube for the rest of my life. I don't wanna make videos in my apartment. I don't wanna make videos about my life. I want to work in tv. So really focusing on that, and again, doing Decoded was awesome, but I realized what I have to do is I gotta get a sample. Right.

(00:41:36):

Like I have to, I have to put together a packet. Like I have to start doing the things that are gonna move me into the next phase. Mm-Hmm. . And I think kind of to your point about being in a box, I think you have to be open to, if you're in a box or people are seeing you one way, being open to saying, what else can I do? And like, how can I show people that I'm more than this one thing? Mm-Hmm. and taking that risk and believing in yourself is really scary. But it's essential because I could have done decoded for the rest of my life and I don't want to do that ,

Michael Jamin (00:42:11):

You know? But then, so iCarly was prob was your first scripted? Yeah.

Franchesca Ramsey (00:42:15):

And then it was

Michael Jamin (00:42:16):

What, so how did you get that? Cuz that's a big leap you have to

Franchesca Ramsey (00:42:19):

Write. Yeah. So before iCarly, what did I do before iCarly? So I did the nightly show and then I sold a pilot to Comedy Central. Mm-Hmm. . And the pilot was with the same producers that did Decoded and it was kind of like a late night sketch type show, Uhhuh . And we didn't go to series. They actually gave us a mini room and I did not know it was a mini room at the time. I was just happy that I was getting a writer's room. And so we wrote 10 episodes of the show. We didn't go to series. I wrote a book. Right. I did a book tour.

Michael Jamin (00:42:54):

And how, how did the, how did the book come about? Which the book is called, well that escalated quickly, , which I imagine and the memoir and memo, it's memoir Mistakes of an Accidental Activist, which is Yeah, that's a perfect idol. Cause I think that's exactly what you were, right?

Franchesca Ramsey (00:43:08):

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it, it really was a collection of essays about a lot of the mistakes that I had made in communicating with other people on the internet and talking about things that were important to me and all the lessons that I had learned along the way. And after Shit White Girls say Went viral, I had a number of people reaching out to me, asking me to write a book, but I just didn't know what I wanted to write a book about. These

Michael Jamin (00:43:32):

Were agents or publishers

Franchesca Ramsey (00:43:34):

Literary agents saying like, you should write a book. And I just didn't know what I wanted to write a book about. I kept putting it off funny. And then after I was a nightly show was still on the air and I, I decided, I think I wanna give this a chance. And I finally had initially I wanted it to just be called Accidental Activists and that was gonna be the title. And I started putting together a book proposal and meeting with literary agents. And I met this great literary agent and she gave me like really good notes on my proposal. She really ripped it apart . Mm-Hmm. . And I was so happy because I had felt like she was the first person I talked to that wasn't like blowing smoke up my ass. She was the first person that was like, this is good, but it could be better. Right. and so she and I worked together for like two months on the proposal and then we went and did a number of meetings. I think we met with like six publishers and

Michael Jamin (00:44:28):

I And you didn't wanna write it first, you wanted to pitch it first as get it sold first?

Franchesca Ramsey (00:44:32):

Yeah. So in with non-fiction, you don't have to write it first. With fiction, usually you do have to write it first. Right. If you've written a book before the fiction proposal usually don't have to write the whole thing. But for non-fiction you usually write like two or three chapters mm-hmm. and then you do like a summary of what the book is about and a bio and who you are and, and why this book and you know, what are books that are in the same family as yours and Right. What your plan for press would be and all that stuff. And I'm, you know, I went to school for graphic design, so I made like a really beautiful book proposal with like photos and Oh wow. Artwork and I drew all these little charts and graphs and stuff cuz that's kind of like, I love infographics. And so yeah, we went to maybe six or seven publishers and I got four offers. Wow. And they went kind of head to head and my agent was pitting them against each other. Wow. yeah. And I got a six figure book deal, which was a big deal. .

Michael Jamin (00:45:30):

That is a big deal. Yeah.

Franchesca Ramsey (00:45:32):

And then

Michael Jamin (00:45:33):

Did they help you, what, you know, promote it, put you on tour?

Franchesca Ramsey (00:45:36):

Yeah, so I mean, that's part of when you work with a publisher is they have a a publicist, like an in-house. I was at Grand Central Publishing, so they had a publicist and we did a photo shoot for the book. And I spent my own money, like I got a publicist. I also had a website built for the, for the book. And then we did an eight city book tour and I got cities added because I really wanted to do something in Florida where I'm from. And that was where I reached out to some of my contacts from the chamber and got my local Miami bookstore.

Michael Jamin (00:46:09):

Why these, the only eight cities, though. Like, what, when they say they're putting on tour, like, I don't know.

Franchesca Ramsey (00:46:14):

Well, they looked at, they looked at the analytics from like my Facebook and my Instagram and, and my YouTube to see like where my audience was at. Okay. And they used that to pick what cities

Michael Jamin (00:46:25):

And then people came out. Yeah. And, and you read, you read and signed books.

Franchesca Ramsey (00:46:28):

Yeah. Yeah. So I kind of, I picked, I reached out to friends in different cities and I had different people as kind of like my co-host in each city. And it was awesome. But it was, it was exhausting. It was really exhausting. And I was doing that at the same time that I was doing my comedy Central pilot. And all of this is to say that like, in that moment I thought like, I'm making it. I was like, I'm making it. I'm like, I'm about to be like a star .

Michael Jamin (00:46:55):

That's what I would think. But you know,

Franchesca Ramsey (00:46:56):

It wasn then my showed didn't go. No. Cause then I showed it didn't go. But

Michael Jamin (00:46:59):

That's normal. Most shows don't go

Franchesca Ramsey (00:47:01):

Right. But I didn't know that didn know that. I, I, I didn't know that. I, I thought I'm a failure. Especially because, like, really think about it. Yeah. Well, think about it this way. When, when you, when a pilot gets announced, right? I, this is my first time having a, having a pilot ever. Mm-Hmm. , a pilot gets announced and people that don't work in TV think that means you have a TV show. They're like, where is the show? And I'm like, oh, well I'm making the pilot now. And they're like, well, when does it come out? I'm like, I don't know. It hasn't been ordered a series. So like, people were writing articles about me, like 10 Reasons Franchesca's gonna change late night. And like, we need Franchesca's show. And like, she's amazing. And Larry Wilmore had gotten canceled. So it was like Franchesca Ramsey's gonna be the only black woman late night host. And like all of this hype was coming for me, and my book was coming out and, and, and, and my publisher was really like, this is it. We're gonna time it with the show. And then, and you

Michael Jamin (00:47:54):

Were believing this too.

Franchesca Ramsey (00:47:56):

And I was believe of course I was, of course I was believing it. I was like, oh my God, I want this so badly. Yeah. You know? And and hindsight is 2020. Like it was not the show for me. I'm glad that I didn't end up making that show because I, I really don't wanna host a late night show about identity. Right. I, I thought I did, but I don't want to anymore. And so like, when it didn't go to series, and then, well, we, we did the mini room and, and that was kind of like a consolation prize, but even then I was like, it was another year of staffing and, and, and putting the room together and trying to figure out what the show was, and then waiting around for Comedy Central. And then they said, we're not going to series. They were like, well, let's sell it somewhere else. So I was like, shooting these sketches. And we,

Michael Jamin (00:48:44):

That doesn't, that doesn't happen. . Right. But that so rarely happens, but, okay.

Franchesca Ramsey (00:48:47):

Right. Well, especially because other networks are like, well, you didn't want it. Why do we want it?

Michael Jamin (00:48:51):

Yeah. We don't, they don't want damaged goods. You don't,

Franchesca Ramsey (00:48:53):

You don't. You didn't want it. So now you think I'm gonna make the show. Like, yeah. Right. Again, and I'm just kind of like, I, I'm just like, I'm just going along. Right. Like Right. I'm going and taking these meetings and, and you know, you have meetings and they're like, we love you. You're amazing. You're great. We're passing, you know, .

Michael Jamin (00:49:09):

Yeah. Yes. I know. All those meetings. .

Franchesca Ramsey (00:49:11):

Right. And so I was just like, I was just like, oh my God, my career is over. And I got a writing job on yearly Departed, which is was a late an end of the year comedy show. Mm-Hmm. . And that was through Twitter. BES Calb, who was our showrunner, followed me on Twitter. We were friendly, and my reps were like, Hey, there's this late, this end of the year comedy special, do you wanna take a meeting? I took the meeting and Bess was just like, I love you. I think you're super funny. She had read my sample and yeah, it was kind of, it was like a series of eulogies for different things throughout the year. Uhhuh .

(00:49:54):

And we did it over Zoom Oh, wow. During the Pandemic. And I was still auditioning, and that's when I booked Superstore. I booked Superstore while I was doing Yearly Departed. So I went to LA to do Superstore and it just worked out that it was at the same time that yearly was gonna film. So I got to go be on set and, and Seeba happened. And and after being here for Superstore again in the middle of the pandemic, I was like, I don't really wanna go back to New York. Right. What if I just stay ?

Michael Jamin (00:50:25):

Well, you, but you're married, aren't

Franchesca Ramsey (00:50:26):

You? I was, I got divorced. You was? Okay. I got divorced in 2019.

Michael Jamin (00:50:30):

Okay. So you don't have to worry about your husband coming over

Franchesca Ramsey (00:50:32):

Here. No, no. We got divorced before, before I got hired on that show. Yeah. I mean, right. Like the year before the pandemic. Right.

Michael Jamin (00:50:42):

And then how did I, Carly come about then?

Franchesca Ramsey (00:50:45):

My managers were just like, Hey, you know, I, I told them I wanted to staff. Right. And so, yeah, I took a meeting with Ally Shelton, who was our showrunner, and again, she read my sample. And I think what she really appreciated was that I had this background as an internet person and mm-hmm. You know, Carly is an internet person personality, and I had actual experience and dealing with trolls and dealing with going viral and Yeah, of course. Live streaming and course bands and social media course. And so Allie was a perfect

Michael Jamin (00:51:18):

Choice. Yeah.

Franchesca Ramsey (00:51:19):

Yeah. Allie was like, you really understand this world. And I I came, I went into my meeting and I had watched episodes of iCarly and I pitched some ideas as for what I felt like would be the direction that I would be interested in going in. And and prior to that, I had my friend Shameka that I mentioned that I had met through YouTube. She and I had sold a pilot to Fox. And so I learned a lot about the scripted process through that. Right. Just through development. It was with Kay Cannon and and Kay is amazing. I learned so much from her.

Michael Jamin (00:51:55):

But was it intimidating for you to be, cuz now you're in out of your element again, you haven't done scripted, so

Franchesca Ramsey (00:52:01):

It, it wasn't intimidating. I, and I, again, I really feel very fortunate because I was able to work with a friend of mine that I had known for, you know, almost 10 years. And she and I had made YouTube videos together and we had come out to LA for pilot season as actors and we got an apartment together. And through the audition process we were like, all of these scripts are bad, we could fucking do this. Right. We were like, we could write a script better than this. . Yeah. Right. And so we wrote like a treatment. We didn't even write a full script. And then we, through our agents, went and took a bunch of meetings and we met with Amy PO's company. Mm-Hmm. . We, we went to Kay Cannon, which is K and l. We went to a whole bunch of places, but Kay and Laverne, her business partner, we just, we just loved them. And they were like, we wanna develop this with you. And so they really taught us how to develop and structure a scripted pitch. That

Michael Jamin (00:52:57):

Was the Fox show.

Franchesca Ramsey (00:52:58):

Yeah. Yeah. Okay. I had never pitched a scripted project before. Everything was like sketched late night. Yeah. Variety. And so yeah, off of that, again, we didn't go to series, but we wrote the pilot. And so I used that as like a sample, even though I'd written it with someone else. And then I had a sample that I'd written by myself, and then I had like all my decoded videos and I had sketches from my Comedy Central pilot and Yeah. And then just like meeting Allie. And then I had, I had also worked on yearly Departed. Yeah. And I think, you know, I really advocated for myself in the sense that I said, look, I haven't done this before, but I'm a really hard worker and like, I learn fast and like, I'll put myself out there and I'll figure out how to get it done.

Michael Jamin (00:53:45):

But this is the direction you wanna go in writing. Yeah. Script and, and performing. Mm-Hmm. . Yeah. Right Now I wanna, I know I'm changing gears here, but No,

Franchesca Ramsey (00:53:55):

It's okay.

Michael Jamin (00:53:55):

How often do you post now on TikTok? You know,

Franchesca Ramsey (00:54:00):

I don't, or

Michael Jamin (00:54:00):

Even Instagram.

Franchesca Ramsey (00:54:01):

I don't post that often. I just came off of, in April I tried to post every, or I did, I posted every day in April on Instagram. Ok. Ok. And that was just a personal challenge for myself cuz I really wanted to really kind of wrap my mind around what I missed about creating content. As I'm sure you've experienced, I've been stuck in development for a few years and I have been feeling disillusioned about the industry. And look at, now we're on Strike . Yeah. But you know, I I was feeling burnt out and

Michael Jamin (00:54:35):

It's so funny that you were disillusioned because you've had, you don't realize this, but you've had tremendous amount of success. Yes. It's just not the what you thought it was gonna gonna to be. No, but from, for me, from, I'm a, I'm a I've doing this longer than you have. Yes. I know. You have a lot of success. You just don't, it doesn't what Yeah. It wasn't what you thought it would be. That's all.

Franchesca Ramsey (00:54:51):

Right. Right. And I, and I, and I also am guilty of the comparison game. Mm-Hmm. , you know, I, I came up with a lot of people that have had a lot of success and I, and I'm very proud of them. And I, I root for them, but sometimes it's not hard. It's sometimes it's hard to not be like, oh God, when is it my turn? When is it my turn? Yeah. And I have sold a show every year since 2017, and none of them have gone to series.

Michael Jamin (00:55:21):

I'm laughing at, you know, you're not supposed to, they're not supposed to

Franchesca Ramsey (00:55:23):

Go to series. I know, I know. But I want one of them to go. I mean, look,

Michael Jamin (00:55:27):

It's a mistake when Len goes to series, they, someone screwed up and then, and you, oh, the guy, they made a mistake and I'm going to series. That's how it goes. .

Franchesca Ramsey (00:55:33):

I look, I, I believe that some 0.1 will go to series. Right. But, but it's, but, and again, I'm, I'm candid and I share this because I know there are other people who do look at me and think like, oh my God, she's doing it. Yeah. And I'm looking at other people going, oh, they're doing it. And I wish I was doing it too. And so for me, I was like, you know what, I'm gonna go back to my roots. I love making content. Mm-Hmm. and I would make content every single day. And I never got paid for this shit. I was doing it and I wasn't paying my bills, but it, it, it fueled me and I enjoyed it. And it was fun and it was challenging. And instead of overthinking it and instead of having to get on a Zoom and talk to executives and get notes and have everybody else pitch in, I was like, what do I wanna make?

Michael Jamin (00:56:16):

Right.

Franchesca Ramsey (00:56:17):

And it was really exciting. I tried all different sorts of new things. And some of the things I would post on TikTok. Something, what's weird for me is if something does really well on TikTok, it bombs on Instagram. Yeah. And if something does really well on Instagram, it bombs on TikTok.

Michael Jamin (00:56:32):

How funny. See, I feel like I can do stuff that does really well on TikTok, but nothing does well on Instagram. .

Franchesca Ramsey (00:56:38):

Well, it just de it just depends. I mean, I, I I, I am fortunate that I've been doing this for a long time and so I built an audience just brick by brick. You know, I think people go into this now and they're like, I wanna go viral. And like, you just have to make something because you have something to say. And if people love it, awesome. And if nobody loves it, fine. You move on. And

Michael Jamin (00:57:00):

It's also consistency, but also you're, you're really putting, there's a couple of lessons I think from talking to you. Like you're being consistent. Mm-Hmm. , you've been doing this a long time. Yeah. You're not giving up, you're putting yourself out there. You are exposing yourself very vulnerably. Like honestly, people are coming after you. Yeah. And I don't know, I think that may have made that, if I were in your shoes, I may have shrunk away. You know what I'm saying? .

Franchesca Ramsey (00:57:27):

Yeah. I mean, I think that when you're in a creative field, you have to have a little dose of being delusional. Yes. Like, you, you have to believe in yourself more. You have to, you have to be on your team before anybody else is. And while I'm so thankful for all of the success that I had, I was making videos and no one was watching them. Yes. No one was watching them. And I was still making them, and I was still putting hours. And this is before there was a partner program. I wasn't making any money. Mm-Hmm. . I was coming home from work and I was spending all of my time making these videos cuz I just thought it was fun and I enjoyed it and I felt like I had something to say. Right. And when I got my agent, I, I will never forget , he was like, you have so many videos. And I was like, yeah, I've been doing this for six years. And he picked out ones that didn't go viral. He was like, this is a really good video. And I was like, no, it didn't really do it. He's like, but this is better than shit white girls say.

Michael Jamin (00:58:26):

And I was like, yeah, you never know.

Franchesca Ramsey (00:58:27):

I agree. . Yeah.

Michael Jamin (00:58:29):

You never know what's gonna go viral and you can't predict it. You just have to just keep expressing yourself.

Franchesca Ramsey (00:58:35):

No, I I think you're almost setting yourself up if you say, oh, this is the one that's gonna go viral. It's always the one that you don't think. Yeah. It's always the one that you like, put no time into and you just kind of like crapped out and then that's the one that does well.

Michael Jamin (00:58:48):

But you're still post. So I asked you how many of you post a day? Ont? You said you for a wife one month, you did a, a post a day. But what do you, what's your cadence now?

Franchesca Ramsey (00:58:58):

On TikTok? Just not that much. I, I've been on a posting spree with like the strike cuz I've been making a lot of content about it. Yeah. And, and I, and I have felt inspired. I felt inspired because I realized, wow, people don't understand what we do for a living. Mm-Hmm. , they don't understand how TV is made. They don't know why we're on strike. They think we're all millionaires. Yeah. And I was just like, oh, this is what I'm good. I'm really good at short form informational content. I'm really good at that. So I was like, cool, I'll just make a bunch of that stuff. So I, like, in the past few weeks, I've maybe posted like three or four times a week on TikTok.

Michael Jamin (00:59:35):

Okay. and then, but you're pretty active on Twitter though, but that's more conversational. Yeah, that's more, I have a thought and I'm gonna share it.

Franchesca Ramsey (00:59:41):

Yeah. But I've been posting videos on, on, in, on tech. My god, I've been posting videos on Twitter also.

Michael Jamin (00:59:47):

Right. Oh really? Mm-Hmm. . Really? I I, that hadn't even occurred to me. I have no fo I have very few followers on Twitter. Yeah. This whole thing is new to me. You're, you're teaching me,

Franchesca Ramsey (00:59:56):

Honestly. Yeah. I, for better or for worse, what I like about Twitter is it feels like you can ea drop on a whole bunch of conversations mm-hmm. . And I think for writers especially, just learning how to be concise about your opinions and your thoughts mm-hmm. and, and doing them in a way that is really digestible and also shareable

Michael Jamin (01:00:17):

And get to the point and don't waste time in the beginning because people are, they're already, they're already moving their thumb. They're already Yeah. Finding something else. And

Franchesca Ramsey (01:00:25):

You have a limited number of characters. So you need to be able to choose your words carefully and, and know how to edit yourself mm-hmm. and know how to tell a story. Especially if you're like making a thread of different tweets. Like you need to be able to compel the person to keep scrolling. Like you need to, it's almost like, you know, that end of act one cliffhanger where you're like, okay, I want you to come back after commercial break. Right. I'm gonna promise you that there's gonna be more. And so what's been really exciting for me is to just learn all of the different ways that my skills and my interests and my experiences have helped me become a better storyteller, a better writer a better performer.

Michael Jamin (01:01:07):

When I, when I ran into the other end, the picket line, were you with other eye colie? I, my my mind You're with your iCarly?

Franchesca Ramsey (01:01:13):

No, no, no, no. But the people that I'm friends with from iCarly were not there. My writing partner Shameika was there. Okay. Now, so sh Shameika and I sold a pilot to Fox. We sold one to Paramount plus last year. Right. and we had a project at Netflix over the middle of the pandemic. And that's my work life. I mean, she is my best friend mm-hmm. . And we could not be more different, but we love working together. Right. So I was with her and like some other like standups and stuff.

Michael Jamin (01:01:43):

Mm-Hmm. , are you still performing standup?

Franchesca Ramsey (01:01:46):

I'm trying. I'm, I'm like dabbling. I'm thinking about getting back into it. I did a friend's, I did my friend Jenna Friedman's show in support of her book. And I had such a good time and so many people were like, where can I see you perform? And, and I was like, oh, I don't really do standup anymore. Yeah. I, I've been thinking about it and it was, it was all all in the same world of like, me feeling disillusioned about my career and being like, I need something. I was like, I need something that's just for me and something that I can still be creative and I don't have to get notes on it and I don't have to work on a deadline. And like, for example, I painted my apartment, my, my apartment. I've painted every wall in my apartment Uhhuh and people, I made all these videos about it and so many people were like, your apartment's so amazing. And I was like, I needed something to do. That was just for me. I don't care if you don't like it, I don't care what color you think it should be, I'm gonna make something for myself. You

Michael Jamin (01:02:44):

Are speaking to the choir, . Yeah.

Franchesca Ramsey (01:02:46):

You really are. I think, and you know what the thing is too is I think especially for people who don't work in creative fields and they're like, I wanna be a TV writer. I wanna, you know, make movies and blah, blah, blah. When you turn your creative passion into a job mm-hmm. It can very easily feel like, I fucking hate this.

Michael Jamin (01:03:03):

I did a post about this a couple weeks ago, I think. Yeah. It's

Franchesca Ramsey (01:03:07):

Hard. It's hard because you realize that like the business of creativity, and this is what we're going through right now with the writer strike, is it's not just about creativity, it's about money. Yeah. It's about profits and here you are going, but this is my baby. And they're like, we have to kill your baby. Yeah. Your baby is going to die. We're gonna do, now the baby is an alien and now this needs to happen and this and da da da da. And, and it can be really soul sucking and soul crushing

Michael Jamin (01:03:35):

. See, so funny you say, cuz I've done, you know, I've done this a long time. Yeah. And I'm, I'm, I'm past the, the point where it's soul crushing now it's like, oh, you wanna change the to alien to a a robot That sounds good. , whatever

Franchesca Ramsey (01:03:47):

You want. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I'll, I I also admit that I am just very sensitive and I, I, I've gotten better at it and I'm, and I learn how to pick my battles. I think the first time around I was so terrified when I would get notes that I would just be like, okay, I'll do whatever you want. And like, now I know how to say like, Ugh, I don't agree with that note. Like mm-hmm. , here's what I would do differently. Or like how to make the exact think that they came up with the idea. Right. Like, I'm gonna address the note differently, but now you're gonna think that I did what you asked for. And that just took time. And also now, again, because of how precarious this business is, I always have like three or four things going. So I'm like, okay, I hope this project goes, but if it dies, it's not gonna be the end of my world. I have other stuff going on. Right,

Michael Jamin (01:04:35):

Right. You're always working on something else. Yeah. Wow, Franchesca, I I just think you were so inspiring. I really like, I hope you know that I look at you as a huge success. Oh

Franchesca Ramsey (01:04:45):

My gosh, thank you. And

Michael Jamin (01:04:46):

I really do because you're just doing it. You're putting yourself out there and you're making it happen. And it's okay if this one failed something else. You're just, it's, it's okay. You're moving forward, you're doing, you're doing great.

Franchesca Ramsey (01:04:57):

Thank you so much. Don't stop anything. Yeah. I, that really means a lot. And, and I mean everything that I said when I first met you, that I've learned from watching your content and I'm really inspired by you. And I think we need more people in this industry who are generous with their knowledge. Right. And there is space for all of us to win. Your success is not failure. .

Michael Jamin (01:05:18):

You know what though? It's not so much that I'm being, I don't think I'm being generous with my knowledge. It's just that it's a lot of work to be generous with, your know. Yes. It's a, it's a lot of work to post every day. Yeah. Which is why I don't think people are, and also why put yourself, you know, I get trolls too, so Right. Like, why, why, why, why do that to yourself?

Franchesca Ramsey (01:05:32):

I guess I guess I mean, in a sense that there are a lot of gatekeepers in every industry that move from a place of a scarcity mindset mm-hmm. in that they believe that if other people know what they know, if other people have access to the people that they do, that it's gonna be at, at their detriment. And I do not believe that that is true.

Michael Jamin (01:05:53):

No, that's not true at all. No, I

Franchesca Ramsey (01:05:54):

Don't believe that. That is true. And I believe that your success is my success and I would like for other creative folks to be in the industry because guess what? You might need somebody to be on staff. Hook me up. I

Michael Jamin (01:06:06):

Wanna, that's the thing you people don't realize. It's not a competition, it's a community writers. You write writing is a community. Yes.

Franchesca Ramsey (01:06:12):

So, yes. I remember a few, a few months ago, there is a pilot program with TikTok stars and NBCUniversal, like helping them develop and, and and basically giving them like a first look. And there were lots of people on Twitter that were so mad about it, how dare they give these talkers? And I pushed back to say, if any, first of all, a development deal does not mean you have a TV show. No. Most of us know that. Right. That does not mean anything's going to series. And if something does go to series, guess what? They're gonna need a show runner. They're gonna need writers. We should be shepherding new people into the business because when you get a job, we all get jobs. Yeah. Right. And we live in the world of Issa Rae and Quinta Brunson and Bo Burnham, and people who started from their bedrooms mm-hmm.

(01:06:58):

and are now making successful television shows that win awards and staff knew writers and people from diverse backgrounds. Mm-Hmm. who would never have gotten their foot in the door if it hadn't been for the internet. So I am of the mind that if I teach you how to make tv, if I teach you how to get an agent or write a pilot or you know, build your online following, it's not gonna hurt my career. Right. Like, your success could be my success too. And Right. I just say all about to say that, that feels very much like your ethos and I really respect that. So I really appreciate and I, I really enjoy the work that you're doing. Oh,

Michael Jamin (01:07:35):

Thanks. Tell everyone how they can find you across all your freaking platforms. .

Franchesca Ramsey (01:07:42):

So I'm @chescaleigh across everything except for TikTok. Somebody else got @chescaleigh, it's Oh damn. I know. It's fine. I'm @franchesca_leigh on TikTok, right? Yeah. Or just search Franchesca Ramsey. There is an h in my name. I'm the only Franhcesca Ramsey. I think there's another one, but I've buried her in the Google results. Sorry. .

Michael Jamin (01:08:02):

.

Franchesca Ramsey (01:08:03):

I did. She used to come up years ago and I don't, I don't think she's on there anymore. ,

Michael Jamin (01:08:09):

Thank you so much for sharing all your knowledge here.

Franchesca Ramsey (01:08:12):

Gosh, delight. Oh, thank you for having me. I, I look forward to seeing you on the picket lines. I know you'll be back out

Michael Jamin (01:08:18):

There. I will be back. . Alright everyone, thank you. What a wonderful officer. Thank you so much. Remember I put a ton of free stuff on my website. You go to michaeljamin.com/shout. I got a, I got an email list, I got a newsletter, which is free tips. I got a free mini course. Go get it. It's all there. And thank you so much until next week. All right, everyone keep writing.

Phil Hudson (01:08:44):

This has been an episode of Screenwriters Need to Hear This with Michael Jamin and Phil Hudson. If you're interested in learning more about writing, make sure you register for Michael's monthly webinar at michaeljamin.com/webinar. If you found this podcast helpful, consider sharing it with a friend and leaving us a five-star review on iTunes. For free screenwriting tips, follow Michael Jamin on social media at @MichaelJaminWriter. You can follow Phil Hudson on social media @PhilAHudson. This podcast was produced by Phil Hudson. It was edited by Dallas Crane. Music by Ken Joseph. Until next time, keep writing.

Emily Cutler is a writer/producer known for Community, A.P. Bio, Fresh off the Boat, and The Michael J. Fox Show. Join Michael Jamin and Emily Cutler as they dive into her history as a stand-up comedian, improv actor, writer, and Co-Executive Producer.

Emily Cutler on IMDB - https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0193915/

Emily Cutler on Twitter - https://twitter.com/cutleremily

Free Writing Webinar - https://michaeljamin.com/op/webinar-registration/

Michael's Online Screenwriting Course - https://michaeljamin.com/course

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Join My Watchlist - https://michaeljamin.com/watchlist

Emily Cutler (00:00:00):

You have to start from a place of, I'm really passionate about this. You know, a lot of times before a season when you go to sell something, you'll say, what are they looking for? Well, this network is looking for family, and this one wants workplace, and this one wants, you know, and so you try to go, okay, well, what do I ha? But you still have to come from some seed of something that makes you giggle or something that inspires you, or it's just gonna be flat, it's not gonna be good or original.

Michael Jamin (00:00:25):

You're listening to Screenwriters. Need to Hear This with Michael Jamin.

Michael Jamin (00:00:33):

Hello everyone, it's Michael Jamin. Welcome to another episode of Screenwriters. Need to hear this. I got another fantastic guest today. I'm starting to think that my listeners don't deserve me because I have so many great people on this podcast. And my next guest is no exception. Emily Cutler, all Bribery. Welcome. So let me go through your,

Emily Cutler (00:00:52):

Hello,

Michael Jamin (00:00:53):

Let me go through you from your credit so people know who you are. Just to refresh their me my memory. Okay. As well as you know, the people listening. So Emily has written for, I'm gonna just blow through some of your credits. They're really pretty impressive. Zoe. we we're gonna start with the start with the beginning. Zoe Duncan, Jack and Jane. Rude Awakening. Good Girls. Don't, I don't know how you got that one. Less than Perfect. That's a pretty good, pretty good show. Love Inc. Blue Collar tv, far Poolers, community Free Agents, atory, how to Live with Your Parents. The Michael J. Fox Show growing up, Fisher The Odd Couple. This is the one with Jack Klugman. No, not that one.

Emily Cutler (00:01:35):

? No. Tony Randall. It was, yeah. Yes, it was

Michael Jamin (00:01:39):

AP Bio Bio and Fresh Off the Boat. You have a lot of, do you take your jobs based on the location of, you have a lot of jobs at with locations in them?

Emily Cutler (00:01:49):

No. And Oh, I thought you meant the location of where you're actually doing the writing in that

Michael Jamin (00:01:54):

Case. Oh, no, we all do that.

Emily Cutler (00:01:56):

Closer to my house. Yeah.

Michael Jamin (00:01:58):

Yeah. Close to your house. So, man, thank you so much, Emily. Let's just start at the beginning, because you started as actually as an actor and you were, you were a local celebrity in la That's when I first found out about you. You were the host of Nine Line

Emily Cutler (00:02:12):

.

Michael Jamin (00:02:13):

You were started as a

Emily Cutler (00:02:14):

Comic Nine Line, which was a, a tiny ridiculous little show, interstitial show that came on between the Mory PO Show and the Jerry Springer show. I popped in and did a little terrible comedy,

Michael Jamin (00:02:25):

But we all knew about you. And you, so you started as a standup, right?

Emily Cutler (00:02:29):

A little bit. I was a very, I dated a lot of standups, so I did a tiny bit of standup, but I spent a lot of time in the clubs watching standups. Yes.

Michael Jamin (00:02:38):

But then how would you,

Emily Cutler (00:02:39):

About myself,

Michael Jamin (00:02:40):

So that, what was your goal then? Like when you moved out to la what was your goal? Did be a writer, an actor, or what? Standup No,

Emily Cutler (00:02:46):

Acting. Acting. I was an actor. I was on a, you may have seen me as the driving instructor on Beverly Hills. 9 0 2 10, the first

Michael Jamin (00:02:54):

One. Now I, now I know the first one of those. The first one, . And then what made you decide to transition to, to writing?

Emily Cutler (00:03:02):

Well, it was really one of those things where I've, I've written all my life, I've written little books and songs and movies, just constantly writing. And so I decided I'll just write in my downtime from acting mm-hmm. . And as you know, you have an enormous amount of downtime from acting. So it, it, the writing just sort of took off and the acting was kind of, you know, it was not as fun. So I kept with the writing. Oh,

Michael Jamin (00:03:26):

Because the, the acting wasn't as fun in terms of waiting to get a job, you mean, or no. Did you Yes. What was not

Emily Cutler (00:03:32):

Fun? Going years without a job? Yes.

Michael Jamin (00:03:34):

Or, or was it just like being, like, is, was the acting not fun or like, the process of getting jobs not fun?

Emily Cutler (00:03:41):

The process of getting jobs. Right. The acting is great. I mean, it's just the, the business of acting is, you know, not for the faint of heart. And I was writing and it seemed to be taking off, and I enjoyed it so much. I figured why not do that? And then I don't have to lose, you know, 30 pounds and go to auditions in horrible heat and

Michael Jamin (00:04:03):

All that kinda stuff. Yeah. Came the ass. And then how did you, so how did you transition to getting your first gig? Like how did that work?

Emily Cutler (00:04:09):

I was doing a show, an improv show called The Dysfunctional Show at a little theater in Hollywood. And

Michael Jamin (00:04:17):

Producers with a

Emily Cutler (00:04:17):

Comedy show and asked me and one other person Yeah. Okay. In, in in Hollywood and, and produced a lot of people came to see it. It was a very funny show. And they, they said, would you and one other guy who was the friend of mine in the show, like to write a pilot Oh, wow. For Brandon Tartikoff. Years and years ago, it was a, a funny pilot spoofing spoofing. It, it's about a, a network news host that, like a, a Ted Bull who falls on hard times and winds up getting a job in a small town. It's the only job he can get. And so and, and the lead in that actually was Matthew Perry's father, John Bennett Perry.

Michael Jamin (00:04:59):

Wait, so a little bit, I'm sorry. So they actually produced this

Emily Cutler (00:05:01):

Pilot? Yeah, they made the pilot. It was a lot of comedians. It was very it wasn't like a, like a, it was more, it was a comedy sketch sort of show. It wasn't a sitcom or anything like that. And then from there, I wrote a movie for Jason Alexander, who I had met in the Dysfunctional show, which didn't end up getting made, but I got an agent from that. So it was a lot of sort of acting moments. This is pretty impressive. That led me into,

Michael Jamin (00:05:34):

So even, how did you get these industry types to sh I think so to show up to your, to your, you know, show your little, what was like a, it was like a 99 se sea

Emily Cutler (00:05:41):

Theater. It was a, it was a really tiny show, but all the people in it, it was Improvd, it was basically on a huge show. But Improvd and we were making fun of talk shows. And so a lot of comedians who were in the clubs would just stop by because it's, you know, for an hour and play a character on a panel. And you know, let's see. It was Bob Odenkirk, David Cross, Warren Hutcherson, Brian Regan. I mean, there was a, just a ton of comics who showed up to do this. Wow. And I think Jason Alexander knew someone in the show, and he was, he was a guest in the show. It was different every week cuz it was like a talk show. So different subject every week. And then you'd kind of get a character and then it was just improvd from there.

Michael Jamin (00:06:22):

See, you just made a really good case.

Emily Cutler (00:06:24):

It was just good exposure.

Michael Jamin (00:06:26):

It's because people ask me all the time, all, and I mean this, I know it sounds like I'm saying this, but like, like, do I have to move to Hollywood to make it in Hollywood? And like, you just made a really good case for like Yeah. Because this is where it is. You know, you have to put yourself out there. Or do you disagree now?

Emily Cutler (00:06:42):

And I think that as a, as a writer, no, I completely agree. I think you have to be, it doesn't mean if you're a film writer and you wanna write a film in some other part of the country, eventually you will have to come here to have meetings or, I mean, now with Zoom, maybe it's not as difficult, but you just wanna be around people. You wanna meet people that can either help you or advise you or influence you in some positive way. And so I would say if you're really serious about writing for TV and film, you should think about coming to LA for a while. Maybe not forever, but for a while.

Michael Jamin (00:07:15):

Right. For sure. And yeah. And you, now you, so you've been here, you've been here, what, when you right after college, you moved, you moved here, right? Or did you do something before?

Emily Cutler (00:07:22):

Oh my God, I, no, I went to New York first. I went to New York cuz I was gonna be a serious theater actress. Really? And then I quickly gave that up and, and came to

Michael Jamin (00:07:30):

LA Yeah. But why, what was that like?

Emily Cutler (00:07:32):

Well, I came to act, I was kind of like theaters, tons of people in LA and I wound up getting an agent, a musical agent. I had to sting for them. And they said, come out to la we need funny women. Yeah. And so I came out and then just never left.

Michael Jamin (00:07:50):

And funny women are in demand. I'm

Emily Cutler (00:07:51):

Contemplating leaving there, there are funny women. I heard there weren't any Yes.

Michael Jamin (00:07:57):

No, but I'm saying they're, they're in demand. Sar I mean, like, if you're a funny woman, you'll work, you'll, you know, show yourself.

Emily Cutler (00:08:03):

There are a lot of fu funny women. There are a lot of funny women who don't work. They're funny women who do work, but they're an enormous amount of funny women. Yes.

Michael Jamin (00:08:11):

Yeah. And so, wait, did you, at some point, were you joking? Did you want to turn around and and leave LA

Emily Cutler (00:08:16):

No, I'm, I'm thinking about that now because A, we have a strike coming and b I wanna live in an enormous house with just a staff of people to wait on me hand in foot. So I figure I'll go to a small town and just buy a small town. And

Michael Jamin (00:08:31):

Where would you go, how that goes? I know you're, I know you're, I know you're being facetious, but where, I don't

Emily Cutler (00:08:36):

Know. That's why I never go anywhere. I, you don't, I do, I think, you know, after my kids to college, where could I settle down that wouldn't be as, you know, wouldn't be a big city. And I'd have my neighbors and I would be close friends and we'd all get together at barbecue and walk down to a beach and there'd be no crime and all of this. And then I realized there isn't that place. Or if there is, I don't know what it is.

Michael Jamin (00:09:03):

So that's lazy. You're not going any further than that. You're not really is

Emily Cutler (00:09:06):

Too lazy. Cause then I'd have to move. I'd have to call people.

Michael Jamin (00:09:09):

I'm, I'm trying to figure out. No,

Emily Cutler (00:09:11):

I, I I, I, I, I don't need, I don't think I'm leaving my house. Oh, okay. No, I'm not serious. I, I, I could leave Uhhuh , but it would require paperwork and phone calls and faxing and, you know, does your husband,

Michael Jamin (00:09:25):

Does your husband feel the same

Emily Cutler (00:09:26):

Way talking to others? And I just can't do any of that.

Michael Jamin (00:09:29):

Does your husband feel the same way? My

Emily Cutler (00:09:30):

Husband was born and Ray will never, never leave.

Michael Jamin (00:09:35):

He'll never leave forever. Right. So he loves it here. Okay. Okay. Now, but you're in Angelo now you're saying I,

Emily Cutler (00:09:40):

I'm seriously doubting it

Michael Jamin (00:09:42):

Now. I wanna know I guess of all your credits, maybe the, maybe the highest, you've had some high profile shows, but maybe the most beloved one is community. What do you think is that the one people wanna know about?

Emily Cutler (00:09:52):

Probably tell us. People are obsessed with that show and they're still obsessed much. I mean, I know it's airing now. It was on Netflix for a while. I wonder if it's still on Netflix. I and it's on the planes. It's on people are, are very we have great fans for community. Yeah. And

Michael Jamin (00:10:09):

What was it like working on that show? Because it seems really hard. So it's a hard show to write for. It seems.

Emily Cutler (00:10:14):

It was a wonderful and nightmarish pool of madness and joy. It was Why the best of times and the worst of times. Well, the show creatively was absolutely wonderful. There was a lot of freedom. The characters were great, the actors were great. The writers were great. Dan Harmon, who was running the show was incredibly brilliant and interesting and strange. The hours were insane. And I had two young, young children at the time, and I was often there overnight. You know, I had my toothbrush and blankets in an office. So that wasn't ideal. if you're a parent or if you have a, a life outside of the show.

Michael Jamin (00:10:58):

But why was it, what, what was, was he taught? Who was someone tossing on scripts? Were they, what was, why was it so late?

Emily Cutler (00:11:05):

Have you been on, have you not been on a show where you've had hours like that?

Michael Jamin (00:11:09):

It's not

Emily Cutler (00:11:10):

Your

Michael Jamin (00:11:11):

Not real, like just shoot me. We would work. We had a couple nights where we worked till four in the morning. But that's only cuz like, there was something blew up. There was a script was, you know, thrown out. Right? Of

Emily Cutler (00:11:19):

Course. Of

Michael Jamin (00:11:20):

Course. But it wasn't a regular day and it's

Emily Cutler (00:11:21):

Normal to stay late sometimes. This was, I think that not all artists are good at running a show are good at time management and managing. I think that's a different skillset. And Dan Harmon was really brilliant at writing and creating and everything except time management and not overthinking things and really understanding to respect other people's time. I think you would say that as well. Yes. See

Michael Jamin (00:11:55):

That's the thing.

Emily Cutler (00:11:56):

You're kinda in his mind. You're in the showrunner's mind when you're on a show. And if it's really messy in there and disorganized Yeah. The show will be too.

Michael Jamin (00:12:05):

People don't realize that is that no one becomes a, a commentator cuz they want go into management. They become comment commenters so they don't have to go into management. Yes. Then they get a job where they're running, they're managing people and it's a different skillset. And

Emily Cutler (00:12:18):

Yes. And a lot of people, I have talked to writers when I say, do you want your own show? They say, I wanna write my own show and I wanna see it happen. But the thought of having to do that massive amount of work mm-hmm. in meetings and executives and storyboards. It's just, it's can be really overwhelming. It's not the writing part that you signed up for. It's a whole different thing.

Michael Jamin (00:12:39):

Even the writing part is a i people say I wanna be a show winner. You're saying that only cuz you don't know what a show winner does. Right. You know? Yeah. It's it's funny, I had Steven Kel on a while ago. He kind of said the same thing. He was like, you know, it's, you're, it's tankless comes the show. It's, and yeah. Yeah. I we were, same thing when we were running shows before we started running shows. It's like, I could do this and then you do it like, oh my god, what did I sign up for?

Emily Cutler (00:13:04):

And why do I want to do this? The fun part is being in the writer's room and creating things. And I don't wanna be, you know

Michael Jamin (00:13:10):

Yeah. Figuring

Emily Cutler (00:13:10):

Out what type of ice cube you're gonna use in this scene. I mean, there's, you know, some people love that, but it is a different, I wouldn't say that writers necessarily naturally have that skillset.

Michael Jamin (00:13:22):

Yeah. And, and so, okay. So that's a good enough reason to be, that's bad for morale too. Yes. Especially when you got two kids. You wanna be home, you don't wanna live there.

Emily Cutler (00:13:32):

But also, if it's a show I created, I'm much more likely to wanna get into the minutiae of things and do that job. I, I never understand what a showrunner takes over a show that they didn't create. Mm-Hmm. , maybe they don't even love the show, but they take the job and just do such a massive amount of work for something that's not really

Michael Jamin (00:13:50):

Yeah.

Emily Cutler (00:13:51):

Giving them the joy or satisfaction of their own creation.

Michael Jamin (00:13:55):

And then what then was like maybe your favorite show that you just loved every second of being on and often it's not the most often, it's not the show, the people we even heard of.

Emily Cutler (00:14:05):

No, I I had a phenomenal time writing for Blue Collar tv, which was a sketch comedy show for Jeff Foxworthy and Bill Engal and Larry the cable guy. Right. all whose politics I do not agree with. However writing for it, it was just hilarious. I mean, it's wonderful if you, if you enjoy writing sketches, greatest group of people. We were all starting out and never done anything before. And we, we got to go down to Atlanta and produce it and see what people responded to and what they didn't. Different kinds of comedy. And it was just fun and silly. It was silly. We got to be silly, you know, all day.

Michael Jamin (00:14:44):

But then tell me about writing than sketches because you need a whole separate packet you didn't make. Yes. It's a whole different skillset. Like,

Emily Cutler (00:14:51):

It's completely different. But I came up doing that as an actor with friends. We did a lot of sketch comedy and we wrote for sketch comedy groups. So that was in my wheelhouse. And also, it's not as, it's not as daunting. It's not 30 pages, it's not 50 pages. It's like, Hey, I just have to write three funny pages that have a beginning, middle, and an end. I can do that. You know, but it's,

Michael Jamin (00:15:13):

When you're, it's all premise. You have to come up with a premise that's funny on its own. The, the one liner has to be, and, and then you have to establish these characters in 30, not even, whatever, 15 seconds and then go, you know. And also

Emily Cutler (00:15:26):

I'm kind of picky. Like, I don't like sketches that just ramble. Like when you have a funny character that has some kind of catchphrase mm-hmm. , it's not enough of a sketch for me to just have that funny character say that catchphrase over and over and everyone like, like I really do believe in building a little story and having it end in a satisfying way. So that, that is challenging. Do

Michael Jamin (00:15:45):

You do any sketch writing still?

Emily Cutler (00:15:48):

Oh God, I haven't done it in years.

Michael Jamin (00:15:50):

No, I haven't done it in years. So what is, is it your main Yeah. Narrative sitcoms. Are you, are you doing dramas as well? What are you doing?

Emily Cutler (00:15:57):

No, mostly sitcoms. A lot of single camera half hours. Mm-Hmm. .

Michael Jamin (00:16:03):

Do you prefer that for any reason?

Emily Cutler (00:16:06):

I always multi camera. I, I always prefer the one. I'm not doing . Yes. Whichever one I'm doing. I say, well, it's just cuz I'm doing this kind. I should go back to multi cams cuz I love them. And then I work on Multicam and go, why am I doing this? I should be writing a single cam.

Michael Jamin (00:16:18):

Yeah. Yeah. I think it's so funny. I mean, I feel the same exact way and I think we all do. I think it's like, eh, you know, when I, same thing with animation, I'd rather do live action. Whatever you're not doing is what you .

Emily Cutler (00:16:29):

I've never done animation though. I'm almost scared of it because it's so you can do so much. There's no, not as much structure. You can kind of just think outside the box, which I think is wonderful. But I'm also terrified.

Michael Jamin (00:16:41):

Take comfort knowing that it's not Writer's Guild. So , it's never covered by the Writer's Guild. So you'll make less money.

Emily Cutler (00:16:48):

So, so Simpsons and Family Guy, those shows must be, well

Michael Jamin (00:16:52):

Simpsons and King of the Hill are, but the King of Hill didn't start as an writer's guild. But now whenever you sign, we've sold a bunch of animated shows and it's never writer. They, it's like it's a deal breaker. Nope. It's Aii. And so that's

Emily Cutler (00:17:07):

So crazy because it's so much writing and so much work mm-hmm.

Michael Jamin (00:17:10):

Because,

Emily Cutler (00:17:11):

And so much thought goes into it

Michael Jamin (00:17:12):

Seems illegal to me because they can, the studios get to choose which guild, which you can be covered by Aii or Writers Guild. And you always choose writers guild, but they say II cuz you, they can pay you left. It's like, well how is that legal? I don't understand what,

Emily Cutler (00:17:24):

That doesn't seem fair. Yeah. You know what we should do Michael? We should go on strike.

Michael Jamin (00:17:28):

When, how about May 1st? What when you are you, I guess you're doing a lot of development now. Is that what you're, is that what your focus is on? What are you Yes. What are you up to? Yeah,

Emily Cutler (00:17:37):

I'm doing a some pilots. I have a pilot that I wrote with another person that's floating around. I have a pilot I just finished that's floating around. I have a pilot I'm supposed to do for that I haven't even pitched yet. And we're supposed to go on strike soon, so

Michael Jamin (00:17:53):

Sit backwards. Really. But when you say floating around, you mean you've written the script first and you're trying to sell it or what?

Emily Cutler (00:17:58):

Yes.

Michael Jamin (00:17:59):

Yes. And you like, you like doing that because usually we don't

Emily Cutler (00:18:01):

Do that. Oh, the two that are floating around, then I have some that I'm supervising. No, I don't like doing that. It depends on if I have a, an idea that I feel I need to execute for someone to really get what it is, then I'll write it myself. But I'd much rather gee, I don't know, be paid to write it.

Michael Jamin (00:18:20):

So write to pitch it. Yes. And then you're supervis cuz even supervising. I'm not crazy about doing, but you're doing. It

Emily Cutler (00:18:25):

Depends. I only supervise if it's a project that comes to me that I really, really love and can't say no to. Other than that I don't, I get offered a lot of jobs of, well you supervise this show about a young, you know, Chinese woman who has a dumpling factory and whatever crazy thing I get. Unless it's something that I go, that's hilarious, I wanna be a part of it. I just don't do it.

Michael Jamin (00:18:51):

And who, how are these coming to you through your agent?

Emily Cutler (00:18:54):

Random ways. Yeah. They kind of float to me through my agent or, or a writer will call me and say, I'm working on something. Would you be willing to supervise? You know, stuff like that.

Michael Jamin (00:19:02):

Oh, like a writer that you've, a young writer you've worked with in the past, you mean? Mm-Hmm. . Yeah. Interesting, interesting. Yeah, because yeah, that's the thing. Go taking an idea out rather take the idea out than than, yeah. It's hard. It's hard out there.

Emily Cutler (00:19:17):

It is hard. And the thing is, and I it's, it's hard for writers who are, you know, a a lot are very introverted, is you have to sell something in a room to people mm-hmm. , which means you have to kind of come out of your shell a little bit and do a performance, a stale. And again, that's another skillset that I imagine as a lot of writers have to learn, you know. But

Michael Jamin (00:19:43):

I imagine as an actor, that part probably comes easy to you.

Emily Cutler (00:19:45):

That is easy to me. And it's fun. I I like doing it. I don't mind doing it. Even when you get a very bad audience of people just not laughing and staring at you as if you've offended them and they hate you. Uhhuh I don't mind doing that. But there are a lot of writers who just, it's terrifying and they don't like it. And it's a whole new skill they have to learn, you know? Yeah. And be be warned before you move out to LA that if you wanna sell ideas to people, you will become a, a bit of a salesman and have to do a sales pitch. Mm-Hmm. .

Michael Jamin (00:20:16):

Now I'm skipping around here a little bit cause I have a lot of questions when I ask you, but when you, when you did the odd couple, you were briefing, is that the right word? A a show that's been on, there's been multiple variations of that show. Yes. And so what was that like? You know, actually he worked with yeah. What was that? Gary Marshall with Gary Marshall. He was in the room a lot, a little,

Emily Cutler (00:20:36):

He came to every taping. He came to the room for a while and then, I mean, he would just show up whenever he felt like it. But I think he came to every taping. He was wonderful. It was fascinating to sit with him and, and hear about his experiences because he's, well, so he would sit Hollywood, he would sit

Michael Jamin (00:20:53):

In the writer's

Emily Cutler (00:20:53):

Room. Yeah. Yeah. And every time I saw him I would give him a kiss on the cheek. But I gave him a kiss every time I felt it was something I had to do.

Michael Jamin (00:21:01):

I mean, we grew up with all those shows. I mean, yes. I mean, was that, I mean, that's just such an honor, but did he give notes or was he just like, ah, holding court

Emily Cutler (00:21:10):

A little bit of giving? No, he took it seriously. He wasn't there just for the hell of it. He, he took it seriously and he listened to all the jokes and he commented on things. But he didn't he didn't get in the way of anything. He wasn't in the writer's room that much. But he would send in jokes sometimes for scripts that he'd read, he'd send

Michael Jamin (00:21:29):

In his pictures. Oh, really? Yeah. What's, what kind of story do you remember? Like what kind of stories? What was it like when he was in the room?

Emily Cutler (00:21:36):

His stories were a little more broad. They were of a different time. Sometimes it would be like a monkey gets loose in the apartment and both guys have to go and find who's gonna take the monkey. And you're like, well, maybe not that.

Michael Jamin (00:21:49):

But how do you say no to him? How do you say no to Gary Marshall? When did he,

Emily Cutler (00:21:52):

I don't think you do. I think you just say That's interesting. Yeah. We were thinking about this and he was very collaborative. Uhhuh . I mean, he didn't, there was no ego there that I saw. He was just happy to be there and be around writers and have the odd couple coming alive yet again.

Michael Jamin (00:22:07):

But, but I actually, what I really meant was like, did he, he must have told stories from his past, like, you know, working with I dunno, the Fonz or whatever.

Emily Cutler (00:22:15):

. Yes. And he also gave, this was a lesson I took from him that I will never forget. He said, don't make your work your life. Have a life uhhuh and work. And don't just work. Don't just, did you read,

Michael Jamin (00:22:29):

Did you read his book? Wake Me When It's funny.

Emily Cutler (00:22:32):

I remember. No, I never did. I never did. Oh,

Michael Jamin (00:22:34):

I remember reading that just before I was breaking into the business and it was just so, it was like, ah, I wanna work in that business. Like, it makes you wanna work in Hollywood. So, so it's like lovely. Yeah. But he tells a story, I think it was on the, the odd couple. They couldn't make a scene funny. Like he was like, it is missing something. So like, they give, like, I think the solution I'm getting, I'm sure I'm getting this, the character wrong, but it was like they, they gave Felix a big spoon or something, . He was like, give him a big spoon. And then it was funny.

Emily Cutler (00:23:01):

And, and also well yes, I think he told that story in the room too. give someone a prop. And often I think we did maybe give Matthew Perry a prop here and there to Uhhuh give him something to do. , did

Michael Jamin (00:23:13):

You guys watch, I mean we all saw the odd couple, but did you go back through old episodes and go, you know what, we can,

Emily Cutler (00:23:19):

We can do this again. I'd seen a lot of them. I'd seen a lot of them. I mean the premise is really about the two guys. About two mis mismatched roommates and how they get along in the world. So yeah, you can do that a variety of different ways. I was surprised, you know, when Matthew Perry wanted to play Oscar because I had sort of seen him in ay way. Yeah. But he wanted to play

Michael Jamin (00:23:40):

Oscar. Maybe that's why. And so what was it like working with him off of friends when he was at this biggest star in the, in the world?

Emily Cutler (00:23:46):

No, he wasn't right off of friends. Many, many years had gone by.

Michael Jamin (00:23:50):

Oh, was it?

Emily Cutler (00:23:51):

It was a learning experience. Oh. you know I've also worked with Chevy Chase. Yes. And these were

Michael Jamin (00:24:03):

Difficult to have actors, , what were the subjects?

Emily Cutler (00:24:07):

These are guys who have super, super talented, amazing comic timing. Mm-Hmm. But maybe have not taken the best care of themselves so they're not able to do what they once were able to do. So that is always sad when you see that happen. And it was just challenging to work with Matthew cuz he was not in the best at his best. He, I mean at his

Michael Jamin (00:24:30):

Best he would probably, he's probably come out and said that a million times over since then. He said

Emily Cutler (00:24:34):

That in his book. He apologized to the odd couple writers in his book.

Michael Jamin (00:24:37):

Oh, did he? He

Emily Cutler (00:24:38):

Did interest. Wow. Because it was kind of, it was a little bit weekend at Bernie's.

Michael Jamin (00:24:42):

Yeah.

Emily Cutler (00:24:43):

So .

Michael Jamin (00:24:44):

Oh wow. Just

Emily Cutler (00:24:45):

Keeping him, him going.

Michael Jamin (00:24:47):

And he was an executive producer on the show.

Emily Cutler (00:24:49):

He was.

Michael Jamin (00:24:50):

Yes. A lot of people don't understand and that, and I, and I think you can count me as one of them. Like what more control, when an actor is an executive producer, they have more control, but to be honest, they have the same amount of control. Even when they're not, you can't force them to say something.

Emily Cutler (00:25:05):

Right.

Michael Jamin (00:25:07):

So you, you explain it to me.

Emily Cutler (00:25:09):

I also don't, when a, when an actor is an executive producer, it means they can see the cuts. Right. And they can say, cut, cut this joke or put this in and Right. Again, I don't know. That's that their strongest skillset. Right. Their, so I never think it's super helpful. There are some that are very smart and that mm-hmm. But I generally would leave that to the people who know more about that and leave the acting to the actors. Yeah. Generally would be my preference.

Michael Jamin (00:25:35):

Have you done, have you directed or have you, do you aspire to direct at all?

Emily Cutler (00:25:39):

Not at all. It's the strangest thing. Cuz I think I'm a bossy person. Uhhuh. . And I do, when I'm on set, know exactly what I want, but I'm not I don't think I'm visual enough to know exactly what a shot should look like. And then this, I just like the acting. I like working with the actors. That's what I like to do. So camera stuff is not my

Michael Jamin (00:26:01):

So you do that a lot. Are you often the writer on set?

Emily Cutler (00:26:04):

Yes. I enjoy being the writer on set. I feel like I can speak the language of an actor. So it's yes, and it's fun. And there's just a great sense of camaraderie and it's nice to get out of the writer's room and be on a set.

Michael Jamin (00:26:18):

But are you doing that for shows that that, are you doing that for shows that even that you don't write, you know, you're not the, the writer of that show? Or are you usually assigned? No,

Emily Cutler (00:26:26):

No, no. I have been assigned to set and I have mentored younger writers who've never been on a set before mm-hmm. . which is a really good thing to do because you don't wanna throw a younger writer on a set when they have no idea what they're doing. But you also wanna make sure that that younger writer is on a set so that they are learning and can move up the ladder really knowing what they're

Michael Jamin (00:26:44):

Doing. And that brings us to the writer's strike, because that's not really happening. It's from where I'm sitting, it's not really happening anymore because these ri young writers for the mo well, I don't know, I haven't done a network show in so long, but on, on these cable, these low budget shows that I'm on, often you're just working on pre-production and then you, you're done. And so the writers aren't coming to set at all. There's, you know, no one's.

Emily Cutler (00:27:06):

And what's happening is writers are moving up. In my day you had to be a staff writer for a very long time. Mm-Hmm. before you got bumped up. I don't know if people know, but on a staff there are different levels. And each level has different job requirements. And what's happening is a staff writer will come in and write for a season and then move up so quickly. Mm-Hmm. maybe bump up a few levels to a producer, and then they're put on a set without having any idea what to do or what each person on the set does or what their role is. Yeah. and it's really important to teach people at the early stages every aspect of a television show. And no, that is not happening very often.

Michael Jamin (00:27:50):

Hey, it's Michael Jamin. If you like my videos and you want me to email them to you for free, join my watch list. Every Friday I send out my top three videos. These are for writers, actors, creative types. You can unsubscribe whenever you want. I'm not gonna spam you and it's absolutely free. Just go to michaeljamin.com/watchlist.

Michael Jamin (00:28:14):

I see that as being really bad. Maybe you'll feel, I wonder how you feel for, for like, I don't know if there'll be multi-camera shows in the future because you, there's so much learning that you have to do and like, who, who's gonna be, there's no, you know, who, how are they learning this? There are no multi-camera shows anymore. Where, where's the, the pool of talent, you know? Yeah.

Emily Cutler (00:28:35):

I, I don't, I mean, I do a lot of mentoring through the Guild. You might do that too, where you work with writers. It's a good thing to do. You should do it. Yeah. you mentor younger writers who are new in the Guild, maybe they've had their first job, but that's about it. And you, they can ask you questions. Like, when I started, I didn't have anybody really to ask, what does this mean? Should, what, what does this person do on set? Where am I supposed to be? What, you know, what is the blow to a scene? I didn't know any of that stuff. Yeah. So I, I I kind of help them and give them a safe place to ask these questions, which is a, a it's great. It reminds me of all this stuff. Yeah. And and I get to be around fresh young hopefuls. So it's, it's a great thing to do. You know,

Michael Jamin (00:29:21):

You know, I remember one of the first times on set, you know, they give you the big director chair to sit and your name's in it. And then I remember like dragging it to the next shot and I got such dirty looks. Yes. Like, you don't touch that chair. That's a union job. . Yes. Like, that's a, all you do is

Emily Cutler (00:29:36):

To think, you feel like I don't belong here. What am I doing? I don't understand anything. You just nod lot and hope that no one will ask anything of you. But yeah, it's much kinder to send people to set feeling prepared and feeling like they have something to contribute instead of them just being terrified the entire time.

Michael Jamin (00:29:52):

So you may have already answered this question then. Like, how do you see the, how has the industry changed from your point of view since you've been in it?

Emily Cutler (00:30:02):

Well, it's changed a lot in, I mean, we're striking for certain reasons. Rooms are getting much smaller mm-hmm. it seems like there's more product out there, but for some reason jobs are hard to get mm-hmm. and there are sort of mandates on shows and mm-hmm. and there are fewer writers and there's shorter production time. Writers move up faster. That is something that happens. You don't have to be a staff writer for a long time before you move up the ladder. And I think that's, but

Michael Jamin (00:30:33):

I don't think that's a good thing, to be honest.

Emily Cutler (00:30:34):

I don't think that's a good thing. Okay. I, I don't, I don't know that you ha I don't believe in staff writers not getting paid for a script. Right. I think that's silly because they are writing and creating a product. They should be paid for it. Mm-Hmm. . But I do think that before you're bumped up another level, you should really have a lot of experience and know what's gonna be required at that second level and be able to deliver that.

Michael Jamin (00:30:56):

I actually think that that writers, I believe that was the guild's idea to protect young writers. And I think it failed actually. Like, I think the intention was if you don't have to pay 'em that way, that way they get to write a script and they learn. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. And so

Emily Cutler (00:31:11):

That was, but they are still writing and some staff writers are just fantastic and write a perfectly terrific script and don't get paid for it. And I always found that. Yeah.

Michael Jamin (00:31:19):

Odd. Yeah. I I think that was like one of those things that backfired well meaning I could be wrong about that, but anyway, but, so yeah. That's how it's, that's how it's changed. What about selling shows, do you think? How's that changed for you?

Emily Cutler (00:31:31):

Well now they have, and I've never used one pitch decks where you're doing a whole visual presentation with your pitch. And I don't, I, I don't feel that's necessary. But a lot of studios like that mm-hmm. , it gives them an image in, in their mind of what you're going for. That's not,

Michael Jamin (00:31:51):

I always felt that was more for drama than spend comedy.

Emily Cutler (00:31:56):

I I think nowadays people will do it. They'll do it for comedy, they'll do it for drama. They'll, you know, show pictures of actors that they think would be good in the roles. And I don't find it necessary. But,

Michael Jamin (00:32:10):

And certainly whatever works, working with pods is probably a bigger thing now. Do you than it was like, there was a time you as a writer, you could just sell a TV show. You didn't have to have all these people attached to it to sell a show.

Emily Cutler (00:32:22):

Yes. And a lot of times when you do that, you, you get a lot of cooks in the kitchen. Mm-Hmm. . So the work that you start out with just starts to morph into something completely different than when you started. And I like, you know, for better or worse, I like a clear vision to a show. Mm-Hmm. where, you know, and I'm sure you've been working a lot in streaming and stuff like that, where it's someone's voice like a Mark Marinn or something, and it actually comes through onto the screen. You don't have to like it. Maybe it's terrible, but it's a clear perspective. And what happens when you have so many cooks in the kitchen is the perspective starts to get watered down. That's one thing that Dan Harmon simply didn't allow on community. He was very ballsy and was just like, this is what we're going to do. And the studio would say, no, no, you can't do that. And he would be like, yeah, okay. This is what we're going to do. So like it or hate it, it made it onto the screen as a singular vision of what that show should

Michael Jamin (00:33:13):

Be. And it shows. But that's so ballsy because there's two things. I think you kind of have to be kind of like a genius level to pull that off,

Emily Cutler (00:33:22):

Which I think Yes. Which he, which he is,

Michael Jamin (00:33:23):

He was, but also you have to have this no fucks given. Like, I I, I don't know many writers who would do that. You

Emily Cutler (00:33:29):

Have to be a little crazy. Yeah. And he's a lot crazy. So it worked out well for him. He must also kind of, you know, felt like he was smarter than everyone in the room and probably was. Right. Which there are, there are many who think that, who aren't. And he just would talk them in circles and finally they just couldn't take talking anymore. So they let him do his thing. Then they fired him . Right. And they brought him back, which was absolutely insane. I've rarely heard of that happening. Yeah. And, and he just really held firm because he knew what the show was and said, this is what we wanna do, and if you don't wanna do it, let's just not do it. But this is how it's gonna go. And he just doubled down and did it.

Michael Jamin (00:34:12):

Where did he, what would you, you must know, what was his first job in the business that he, where did he learn from?

Emily Cutler (00:34:18):

He did a streaming, I think he had a channel, I can't remember what it, what it's called. Oh, people will know. Like Channel 24 or channel something that did a lot of a lot of internet stuff. And then I think his first job was on the Sarah Silverman show back when she, I think it was Comedy Central. I could be more about all

Michael Jamin (00:34:37):

Of this. Yeah. Sam Sterling did that.

Emily Cutler (00:34:39):

And they had, they did not get along. I don't think they were the right fit.

Michael Jamin (00:34:43):

Oh my God.

Emily Cutler (00:34:44):

And then I, he, I don't know, I think he went, actually went to community college and that community was based on his experience

Michael Jamin (00:34:52):

Because I, I think that showrunners kind of, they, they learn how they're gonna do this kind of, they, from the first job they take, their first showrunner is the kind of the person they emulate, you know, and mm-hmm. , that's kinda the school you come out of. And if your first boss was organized, you'll be organized. And, you know,

Emily Cutler (00:35:09):

Not for me, my first real boss on a sitcom was absolutely out of his mind. And an just, just a, a, a monster human who did everything. I, I just sat there going, this can't be right. This can't be Hollywood. All writers cannot be doing what we were doing, which is sitting on the floor and being screamed out about paint colors for his bathroom. And he was just insane. So I was like, this can't, if this is how everything is run Hollywood, it was on a show called Movie Stars, which was Harry Hamlin's comedic opus and,

Michael Jamin (00:35:47):

And Wait, do you wanna say who the, who the writer is?

Emily Cutler (00:35:49):

Yes, I do. His name was We, Wayne Lemon, which already sounds kind of like a serial killer name. It's like a great character name Wayne Lemon. And he, I think he was the son of a Baptist preacher and had no sense of humor and told us that on the first day. He's like, I'm not funny. That's not what I do. I'm not funny. I was like, well, it's great that you're running a comedy then. Oh my God. And we, there were only two writers. He, he didn't want a staff, he wanted two baby writers. We and another writer named Bick Scahill, we had never done it before. And so we sat on the floor and we listened to him fight with his wife. He was really abusive. It was, it was a hilariously weird experience. But I remember thinking, this can't be how every show in Hollywood is run. So I did not learn how to run a show from him. I learned very much what I don't wanna do, which you can also learn from your showrunner.

Michael Jamin (00:36:38):

But I would've, I'm not joking, I probably would've thought this must be Hollywood. Like, I, I, I, I probably would've felt differently from you. Like, that might've scared me from ever working in Hollywood continuing. Well,

Emily Cutler (00:36:49):

I was terrified to say anything or ask anyone because you're always afraid when you start out that you're gonna be either discovered as a phony and fired. Yeah. Or you're, you just don't make waves. You don't stand up for yourself at all. Cuz you're like, if I say anything, I'll never work again. So we just sucked it up. But it wasn't until later when I got on a normal staff where people were saying that, I went, oh, okay. . That was not a normal experience.

Michael Jamin (00:37:18):

At what point, and I really mean this, like at what point in your career did you finally feel like, all right, I know how to do this job because it's not on day one. It's not.

Emily Cutler (00:37:28):

I'm not, I'm not sure. I I'm not sure I feel that way now. It it, it depends. There are shows that I go in and I feel like I got this. I know exactly what I'm doing. I'm fantastic. And then on the very next show, I feel the complete opposite. Why am I doing this? There's no point. I have no talent I should give up. I think all creative people maybe ride that rollercoaster a little bit of feeling like I've got something to offer. I have nothing to offer really. I mean, I, I bounce back. It depends on the show and it depends on if I really think I can capture the voice of something and do it justice. Like if I went to write on succession tomorrow, I'd probably be a little nervous. I'd be excited to do it. But I might go, God, I hope I live up to this thing. Or I hope I can get into the voices of these characters. And then there are some that it's just natural to

Michael Jamin (00:38:18):

You, but even in terms of like knowing how to break a story or when you go off on script and you look at that blank page, like, or you're turning in your writing your outline. Like there, there must have been a moment where you're like, okay, I think I know how to do this. Right. I mean, cuz like in the, honestly, it took me, it took years and years for me to have, okay, I think I know how to do that.

Emily Cutler (00:38:37):

Yes. I, I think it took years and years and I think I knew certain things. Well, I can craft a joke, but I don't know, can I, am I really good at story? You know, in meetings people always ask and people ask your agents, are you good at story? Right. Or are you good at jokes and you seem to have to be in one camp or the other. Right. I think is absolutely stupid. But I go back and forth. I mean, I still look at a blank page and, and feel a sense of, you know, excitement and fear at the same time. And am I gonna do this? Am I gonna blow this? And I do a little of both. Right. I've written some scripts and I'm like, wow, this really, I crapped the bed on this one. And Right. Some that I'm like, all right, this is pretty good.

Michael Jamin (00:39:21):

Do you do any writing that is not for for sale? Like just for yourself or a book or something on the side or anything?

Emily Cutler (00:39:28):

I draw a lot. So I do that on the side. I used to write songs. I've written some poems. Uhhuh . I'm trying to think of what else I've written. You know, I have a friend who does game shows and I, I help him with game shows a lot cuz that's super fun. And I have no, it's not my job so I don't have to panic and interesting worry about it. Right. Because that's a whole other that's a whole other, you know, crazy world. But that's really fun to do

Michael Jamin (00:39:58):

Because the minute you put, the minute you're doing it, it's your profession. Things change, you know, like

Emily Cutler (00:40:04):

Absolutely.

Michael Jamin (00:40:05):

Right. Well what's your take on that?

Emily Cutler (00:40:06):

Well, I mean that's why I write some pilots myself that I'm not gonna sell is cuz I come up with an idea that brings me some level of joy or that I feel I have a handle on. Mm-Hmm. and have that feeling like you're talking about I can do this. Well if I can really do this, I should sit down and do it. And you know, it, it turns out well or it doesn't. But I do that for myself. Yes. Do I hope I'll sell it. Sure. Why, why wouldn't I? But I just get it out of myself. Right. Because it's a, an idea in my head. Just get it on paper if you

Michael Jamin (00:40:36):

Can, just to remind yourself why you like writing.

Emily Cutler (00:40:40):

Yes.

Michael Jamin (00:40:40):

Right. Have you saw Adam? Don't, I'm trying to remember. We've, we've written a, a handful of pilots on spec. I don't think we've sold any. I think the ones we've sold are always saw on pitches. Are you able to sell specs or are they just writing samples?

Emily Cutler (00:40:55):

No, it's always, it's always been really pitches. I can't think of a script I've sold, I sold a movie but never never on spec. On spec. Yeah.

Michael Jamin (00:41:06):

Sold them. How'd that go? What was that?

Emily Cutler (00:41:09):

, it was called Suddenly Yours. It was a test to see if I could write a romantic, a cheesy romantic comedy back when they made them like those great kind of formulaic mm-hmm romantic comedies that you see, you know, two of a year. And it got bought and then just nothing happened to it. It died because then Jennifer Lopez had a movie called Maiden Manhattan that was basically the same thing. And so, so funny that got made.

Michael Jamin (00:41:32):

That's so, cuz we did, we sold a movie on spec though. It was called Only Child. And then that got killed because they had a movie in development called Middle Child . And I dunno

Emily Cutler (00:41:43):

If they had anything, that's all it changed. Of

Michael Jamin (00:41:44):

Course not. Other than the word child.

Emily Cutler (00:41:46):

Yes. My god. It's a, another movie with child in the title. We must only have one.

Michael Jamin (00:41:51):

But you must have had to do some rewrites on, but after you sold it, they probably wanted rewrites from you now.

Emily Cutler (00:41:56):

Yes. And I got rewritten by another writer too, Uhhuh, who changed it into something totally different. It was, it was like a fascinating thing to see. It became this different creature, this completely different entity with like little bits of my script in it.

Michael Jamin (00:42:10):

But because sometimes I hear more often than that people are like, I wanna, I wanna write movies. I'm like, what you YouTube superhero movies? Yeah. What what? Yeah. Tv

Emily Cutler (00:42:19):

TV is movies now. There are no more movies for the most part. It's, you know, big blockbuster superhero movies. There are few little ones and a few ones like, you know, maybe a Matt Damon movie that will squeeze in, but really television's where it, where it's at. Right. With streaming and everything.

Michael Jamin (00:42:36):

Did you, but did you even, did you even enjoy the process of writing movies?

Emily Cutler (00:42:41):

I did.

Michael Jamin (00:42:42):

You did? I did. I did.

Emily Cutler (00:42:43):

But I was, I was younger and didn't know anything. It's great when you don't know anything and when you don't know what, how the business is structured and you just come from a creative place and put something on paper that brings you joy. Right. That's great. And as soon as you start getting paid for it and other people get involved, you can still have joy but it's a different kind. It's, it's not pure, you know, it's,

Michael Jamin (00:43:08):

Well the reason why I see it, cuz like when you, when you get a note on a TV script, all right. Even if it's a giant rewrite, it's still, it's, it's 30 minutes of television or whatever. 22 minutes of television. Yeah. If you could do a note on a, on a movie and maybe it's a free rewrite that you have to do, talk about 90 minute movie. That's a, like that that's a lot of

Emily Cutler (00:43:25):

Work. Yes. That's a lot. And a string will, a string will get pulled. That seems like nothing to the person giving the note. But that to you completely unravels the

Michael Jamin (00:43:33):

Entire thing. Everything right? Yes. I was like, I don't know why, I don't know. I dunno why people wanna write movies so badly. I think it like be just an ego thing.

Emily Cutler (00:43:41):

Yes. There are a lot of pages to a movie so it is daunting. But again, if you have an idea inside of you and you can see where it's going and it just sort of comes out of you, it doesn't feel like work. It just feels great.

Michael Jamin (00:43:54):

No, obviously you mentor people, writers and the writers, young writers in the guild. So that means they've already sold something. They've already steered a a hurdle. Yeah.

Emily Cutler (00:44:02):

Some of them are doing much better than I am. .

Michael Jamin (00:44:04):

Oh really? They're

Emily Cutler (00:44:06):

Skyrocketing. I'm like, I hope you gimme a job.

Michael Jamin (00:44:08):

Wow. but so what advice do you have for people who haven't even done gotten into the guild yet?

Emily Cutler (00:44:15):

Just keep, keep writing and keep, have an original voice and put stuff on paper.

Michael Jamin (00:44:20):

And where are you getting, where are you looking for your ideas? Where are you getting your ideas from?

Emily Cutler (00:44:24):

I try and get my ideas from my life or you know, a great way to get ideas. If you have a funny group of friends or a group of friends you hang out with and you're just sitting and shooting the shit with them and making each other laugh. A lot of ideas, great ideas come out of that. A lot of ideas come outta my marriage. I get a lot of ideas from my marriage, from my kids. I never wrote family shows. I was never interested in that kind of stuff. And now that I have a family that sort of inspires me. So look to your life. Look to your extended family. Look to your friends. I have a friend, my current pilot is about an open marriage cuz I have friends who are having an open marriage and I think it's just so hilarious and, and mortifying and ridiculous. And so I'm, I wrote a pilot about it,

Michael Jamin (00:45:08):

But no, but selling it, they always want to hear like, how are you the only writer who can write this? And so I see that's why I understand you're stealing from your family, but from your friends with the open marriage, even though it'd be fi are you at the mean, are you, are you prepared to answer that question? How are you

Emily Cutler (00:45:23):

Gonna answer? Yes, I am. How? Well I think you do have to personalize it because I think them having the open marriage caused my husband and I to have a discussion about could we ever, what would it look like? Were this just, you know, middle-aged suburban couple, like what is that gonna look like? So that pilot became about this really unlikely like coupled to do this kind of thing and what transpires because they choose to do it. So it would kind of be like, my husband and I made this decision to do this thing. Here's what happened and how it went wrong.

Michael Jamin (00:45:56):

Where, so that's interesting because you're prepared. So that's, you're smart. Cuz you knew going into a meeting, that's the question they're gonna ans ask you. And so Yeah. Yes.

Emily Cutler (00:46:04):

They want something from your personal experience. And the truth is, you can make it from your personal experience however you like. You can, it doesn't have to be, this is exactly my experience. I lived it, it can be, this is how watching somebody else experience else's experience affected me and made me think of this. And I, you can kind of weave your own tail.

Michael Jamin (00:46:30):

But are you, are you going into, when you come up with your ideas to pitch, are you, is your target to sell it? Are you always thinking like, well what are they buying? What's, what's my version? Or are you just like, this is what I got in the tank.

Emily Cutler (00:46:41):

I used to be, that's why I wrote that romantic comedy. I wanted to see if I can just, you know, churn out a pile of crap for someone who says we want a pile of crap. Right. And I could, but nothing great comes out of that. And I, I do do that because I panic about money and go, I have to sell this. And they wanna show about a, a flying dog, so I'll stick a flying dog in there. You do sometimes compromise, but nothing great is ever gonna come out of that. You have to start from a place of, I'm really passionate about this. You know, a lot of times before a season when you go to sell something, you'll say, what are they looking for? Mm-Hmm. , well, this network is looking for family and this one wants workplace, and this one wants, you know, and so you try to go, okay, well, what do I ha? But you still have to come from some seed of something that makes you giggle or something that inspires you, or it's just gonna be flat. It's gonna be good or original, I

Michael Jamin (00:47:31):

Think. And, and how much, when you're not on staff of a show, how, what is your, what does your writing schedule look like?

Emily Cutler (00:47:37):

Oh, you said writing schedule? Yeah. that, that implies that I'm an organized

Michael Jamin (00:47:43):

Or So you don't have one healthy

Emily Cutler (00:47:44):

Human? No, I'm the worst I'm supposed to be writing. You'll always know when I'm supposed to be writing. My house will be clean. Yeah. I'll be cook cooking something. Maybe I learned to bake bread, you know, I buy a new mascara and I put it like, I just procrastinate. Yeah. Forever. I'm the least organized writer. Again. That is another skillset. Like my friends who went to really tough colleges who are writers, learned how to study, and in learning how to study, they also know how to write and budget their time. I think you're one of them. Didn't you go to some didn't. I went to some fancy some. You went to a fancy school. Okay. Well, I assume if you go to a fancy school like that, or, or grow up learning those skills from your parents or something, you know, how to manage time. I'm the worst at it, so don't be me. Right. Learn how to give yourself a schedule. Be the kind of person who does that. You know, I guess it's like going to the gym. I'm also the person who's like, what's your schedule for working out? Well, sometimes I go for a walk. Sometimes I sit on my ass. I just don't, I'm not as disciplined as I should be.

Michael Jamin (00:48:50):

Well, it's, I mean, it's easier for me. I have a writing partner, so it's like, we agree, you know? All right. We're, we're agreeing to meet today at 10 o'clock, but, so, and

Emily Cutler (00:48:57):

You and one pushes the other and goes, come on, we gotta, yeah. No, that would be great. I need to get, I need to get me one of those.

Michael Jamin (00:49:04):

Well have you written, but you've written projects with people. You have one right now? I

Emily Cutler (00:49:06):

Have. I've written, yes. And the one that I wrote the right now, one, she was great. She was super disciplined and would let me kind of, you know, I could just be funny and amusing and she'd be the workhorse. Mm-Hmm. . But then I had a partner we wrote some movies together where he was more dysfunctional than I was. Uhhuh . So we just, I'd say, let's not work. Let's go to Starbucks and get lattes instead. And he'd go, great. , . Instead of saying, no, we need to work. We need to, yeah. We were, we were not a good influence.

Michael Jamin (00:49:36):

And do you have a, what, what's your spot? Do you have a spot that you like to work in? Or are you wherever you take your laptop, wherever.

Emily Cutler (00:49:43):

It's much better. It's great. When I'm staffed on a show, when I'm staffed on a show, when I'm in the mindset, I like to work in my office there. Even if it's on something else. Cuz it just gets me in the mindset. My house where I have two children who are now teenagers, is like a war zone. It's really hard. I have an open house. There's, it's almost lofty in a way. So there's nowhere to go to hide. Oh. Or, or to work. So I really try and go out or I wait till they're at school and, you know, sneak in a room somewhere. But it's, it's, again, it's not, it's not orderly. I'm not in one place. I'm moving around and

Michael Jamin (00:50:20):

Interesting.

Emily Cutler (00:50:21):

Yes. Discipline. Discipline. Disciplined. Get some discipline.

Michael Jamin (00:50:26):

Then let me ask you one final question. I don't know if, I don't know if you can have an answer to this, but like, what gets you outta bed then? What, what is makes you excited to, for your, I don't know, to

Emily Cutler (00:50:35):

Run career or in life? Well,

Michael Jamin (00:50:37):

Let's, let's do both. Let's do both.

Emily Cutler (00:50:41):

What gets me outta my bed is my children. Mm-Hmm. , because they need to be taken places and

Michael Jamin (00:50:48):

You're the Uber driver.

Emily Cutler (00:50:50):

What makes me excited to write again is, and I mean this might just be me because I know a lot of writers like to sit alone in a cabin and write a book. To me that's deathly. For comedy, it's to be around people. Like even just talking to you now, it will spark something and, or make me feel like, you know, it's why people go to the gym because you're surrounded by other people doing the thing that you're supposed to be doing. Mm-Hmm. . And it helps you. So when I'm not on a staff, which is a very collaborative thing where you're in a room with a lot of funny people and I'm on my own, it's not as much fun. It's much harder to get out of bed and motivate. So talking to you is helpful. My husband's really funny, so I'll run ideas around with him. I'll call friends. For me, it helps me to be around other people who are doing what I'm doing, who are funny people. That's what helps me.

Michael Jamin (00:51:44):

Did

Emily Cutler (00:51:44):

That get inspired?

Michael Jamin (00:51:45):

So now that you mentioned it, did, did you find that intimidating in the, in your beginning of your career? Like pitching, trying to be funny around funny people? Like how, how did that work in

Emily Cutler (00:51:53):

A writer's room? Yeah, absolutely. Well, one of the things I always say to writers coming in is, listen more than you talk. You don't wanna come in and be the standup comedian who's like, I listen and learn. And when you've got something really good to say, say it. Mm-Hmm. . But it's, it's kind of like a blind date. You're in a room with some, someone in this case, several people you don't know. And you're feeling it out. You're feeling out what the showrunner likes, you're feeling out what the co EEPs, the upper level writers, what they respond to. You're seeing the ones who need to suck up the oxygen and talk a lot. Mm-Hmm. , you're seeing who not to you. You get used to it. You sort of figure it out. You feel out the vibe of a room. And a lot of times, sorry. I was gonna say showrunner will take you aside and go, Hey, you're pitching too much or you're pitching too little. If you have a good showrunner or you have good upper level writers, they will hopefully take you under their wing and give you a little guidance

Michael Jamin (00:52:46):

Here. But certainly now, like you could join any writing staff or you've been doing it long enough, you could sit down in any writer's room today, day one, and contribute in a meaningful way and not feel intimidating, intimidated, like you'd open your mouth and pitch and, and if it bombed, you'd be fine with it. You'd come up with something else five minutes

Emily Cutler (00:53:03):

Later. Oh, if it bombed, if it, yes, I'd be fine with it. But yes, Stewart's intimidating. It is intimidating because there are writers that I look up to Uhhuh and shows that I am wildly Yes. I think for me, and I've said this before, it's it's safety in a room. If you have a showrunner that where you feel safe mm-hmm. to pitch bad stuff. Cuz a lot of times something good will come out of something bad.

Michael Jamin (00:53:27):

Right.

Emily Cutler (00:53:28):

A safe environment. When you're new somewhere, it doesn't feel safe right away. You don't know these people you don't know, you know. But if you're in a safe environment, be it on the best show in the world, the worst show in the world, you're gonna do your best. It's when you are clenched and, but

Michael Jamin (00:53:43):

Do you still feel that way now? You've been doing it all these years. You could jump into a show you, I don't think you'd be intimidated on, on day one to open your mouth. I don't think, I

Emily Cutler (00:53:52):

Don't know, not to open my mouth, but, but again, it depends. Is it a new show and I'm coming in at the beginning and helping create and helping? Or is it a show that's been on for three seasons and everybody already knows each other? I mean, it's like going to a new high school when everyone's been in school since kindergarten. It, it takes you a minute to just know where do I fit in and how is this room, every room's different. Every room is run differently. I remember in the Frazier room, people were supposed to be silent and then only pitch when they had something brilliant to say. And then there are other rooms that are complete free for alls. So it depends on the room and it depends on who you're surrounded by. I take on a lot of, you know, the vibe of the room.

Michael Jamin (00:54:30):

It's so funny you say that cuz we did a show we did out of practice, which was Chris Lloyd and Joe Keenan Yes. To the, to the big, the heavy hitters in Frazier. Yes.

Emily Cutler (00:54:38):

I had a meeting with them that I will tell you about

Michael Jamin (00:54:40):

It. Oh. Oh, let's hear that. Because the reputation, they, they were aware of that reputation and they didn't, I don't think they wanted that reputation anymore. Like I heard on Frazier Writer's Room, they only ate on China like . Yes. Like, I don't think it was true, but that's what you heard. And so they, they didn't want that on, on out of practice. And they hired a fun staff and it was really loose. It was pretty funny to see these, you know, to see, you know, Joe Keenan loosen up and Chris Lloyd. It was, I

Emily Cutler (00:55:06):

Worked with Joe Keenan. And Joe Keenan was delightful and silly and ridiculous. And I had a fun time. But when I met with Chris Lloyd, I found him enormously intimidating because he's, he just was, he's

Michael Jamin (00:55:16):

One of the best writers in Hollywood .

Emily Cutler (00:55:18):

That's, and he was very serious. He was very handsome. Yeah. And the show was called Bram and Alice, do you remember the show? It was like Alfred Molina playing a Right. Kind of an in intellectual. And for some reason I put on a string of pearls because I thought, oh, it's a show about intellectuals. I should Yeah. Hear a string of pearls for some reason to impress this. And yeah. So I mean, yes, I would get, I still get intimidated. Sure, sure. I do. Is

Michael Jamin (00:55:44):

That your, but is that your story? You're gonna, you were gonna tell about Crystal that your Braman story, is that it?

Emily Cutler (00:55:48):

Well, the Braman Alice story was basically that I kept being told, you're in the mix. I was like, did I, did I get the job? Did I not get the job? You're in the mix, which is something people will say to you, meaning you, they're still considering you. And my agent just said it for so long, he just kept saying it to the point that the show got shot and made. And I was like, it, the joke was just, I'm still in the mix. Graham and Alice just kept telling me I'm on the mix, that I clearly was not in, not in the mix for some reason it just went on forever. So I'm still in the mix today for that show.

Michael Jamin (00:56:20):

Yeah, yeah. Well, phone's gonna ring.

Emily Cutler (00:56:23):

But yes, I still get intimidated. Of course. Sure.

Michael Jamin (00:56:27):

Interesting. Interesting. Okay. It goes

Emily Cutler (00:56:29):

Away. It waxes and wanes, but it's, anytime you're in a group of new people you don't know, you know, you don't know they're

Michael Jamin (00:56:36):

Cause you, because you have all these credits, you can say, you know, the joke is, you know, you're in a room, well, you know, on Atory or, you know, when, when we, when we did community,

Emily Cutler (00:56:46):

That was a place I was very intimidated on, on both community and Atory. That doesn't mean I didn't do good work on the show. And that doesn't mean that I didn't sit down and write a really good draft or, or contribute something great. Mm-Hmm. . But again, it's like a blind date. You know, you're gonna vibe with some people and not with others. Their way of working is gonna be different. Will they get the best out of you? Will it? They make you clam up. You just don't know. And on both those shows, I was working with really strong showrunners, Uhhuh , who were very talented and very funny. And I was in awe of both of them. And for me, it made me a little quieter, a little more reserved. I'm a very lively Right. Filthy right. Silly person. And I shut that off a little bit.

Michael Jamin (00:57:33):

Who was Atory? Who was running that?

Emily Cutler (00:57:35):

Atory was Emily Kaepernick, who I love. Oh, she's just a force of nature. Just fantastic. Great writer. Yes. and I'd never really experienced anything quite like her. She, and the way that she approached her shows and her comedy mm-hmm. . And so I just, you know, get quiet and I listen and I absorb it. But yeah, you get intimidated sometimes. It makes you quiet. Sometimes. Depends. Just depends.

Michael Jamin (00:58:01):

What are your final thoughts on this whole writer strike thing? Potential, potential writer strike?

Emily Cutler (00:58:07):

I think that it is, it is the right thing to do. Yeah. I think in Hollywood there is more than enough money and resources for everybody. Mm-Hmm. . And sometimes people tend to want to hoard that money and those resources and writers of a certain level, like a mid-level. You're not a Shonda Rhimes, but you're not just starting out. Can't make a living mm-hmm. in the, the current way that things are set up. So some changes need to be made. They're long overdue. Mm-Hmm. . And with streaming, everything has changed. Yeah. And it's time to, you know, you gotta stand up and fight for what's right. So that's what we're doing.

Michael Jamin (00:58:49):

She's right

Emily Cutler (00:58:50):

For the younger writers coming up too. Oh, you were gonna give a big sendoff.

Michael Jamin (00:58:54):

I was gonna give you sendoff. Let's, they have something else to say.

Emily Cutler (00:58:57):

I always have something else to say. No, I'm done. I'm finished. . That's it. You silenced

Michael Jamin (00:59:01):

Me. No, I don't wanna silence you. I wanna encourage you to

Emily Cutler (00:59:04):

No, not at all.

Michael Jamin (00:59:05):

Cut outta your shell and say whatever you wanna say. I don't wanna, I have taken a lot of your time, Emily, thank you so much.

Emily Cutler (00:59:12):

It's my pleasure, my absolute pleasure.

Michael Jamin (00:59:14):

Should, should we, should we plug anything? Should we have people follow you somewhere? Is there someplace? Do you wanna have people to know what you're up?

Emily Cutler (00:59:21):

I'm on Twitter. I think What's your, again, the, the real Emily Cutler I think on Twitter. I don't even remember my own name.

Michael Jamin (00:59:28):

Yeah. Do you think there's other people trying to be you that you have to speak?

Emily Cutler (00:59:32):

No, but there were so many Emily Cutler's, I couldn't, I wanted to be the extra special. Emily Cutler. Yeah. So I said the real Emily Cutler. I'm still on aol, so I, I noticed that. I don't, I don't know what's cool. Yes. Still on aol. Yeah. I noticed that

Michael Jamin (00:59:46):

When I got your email.

Emily Cutler (00:59:47):

Really sad Hitchy. Really sad . Really dating myself. But yeah, still on aol, guys.

Michael Jamin (00:59:54):

All right. Well thank you Emily, so much. My pleasure for being in our show. You're always at the

Emily Cutler (00:59:59):

Light. Thank you for having me.

Michael Jamin (01:00:00):

And I'll sign off and then we'll, we'll, we'll chat a little more after Chi Chat.

Emily Cutler (01:00:03):

Chat. We'll, gossip.

Michael Jamin (01:00:05):

Okay. Thank you so much. So everyone, yeah. We got gr more great guests coming up. Thank you for listening. Go to my website, sign up, we got a newsletter and all that stuff. Michaeljamin.Com. I'll see you next week. Thank you again, everyone.

Phil Hudson (01:00:22):

This has been an episode of Screenwriters. Need to hear this with Michael Jamin and Phil Hudson. If you're interested in learning more about writing, make sure you register for Michael's monthly webinar michaeljamin.com/webinar.

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Stephen Engel is an Emmy Nominated Showrunner of Dream On. He's known for The Big Bang Theory, A.N.T. Farm, Mad About You, and Just Shoot Me! Join Michael and Stephen as they discuss how Stephen broke in, what it takes to make it in Hollywood, and how he approaches story.

Stephen Engel on IMDB - https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0257145/

Stephen Engel on Wikipedia - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_Engel

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Michael Jamin:

You're listening to Screenwriters Need to hear this with Michael Jamin.

Hey everyone, this is Michael Jamin. Welcome back to another episode of Screenwriters. Need to hear this. My next guest is a great dude and one of the first dudes I've ever worked with in Hollywood as a TV writer, Mr. Stephen Engel. And his credits are, well, geez man. These guys come fantastic credits. Dream on which you ran. He was the showrunner of Dream on. I did. We're going to talk about that because that was one of my favorite shows. Mad about You. All right. Already. Which you created. You co right? You co-created it or

Stephen Engel:

You created I didn't create it. I ran it though. You ran it? Executive. I supervised an executive who the pilot and then ran the series. Co-ran the series.

Michael Jamin:

All right. Okay. Just shoot me, which we worked on together. Work With Me. Which that were you cr Wait,

Stephen Engel:

Did you create That? I created, that I created

Michael Jamin:

Now was it work with Me or Work With Me? It

Stephen Engel:

Was work with me. It was work with me. It was Work with me

Michael Jamin:

Inside Schwartz, which I know you created and I, yes. Remember I helped out for a day or a day and a half. Yeah. I think I gave you a three hours worth of work in a day and a half.

Stephen Engel:

It was very appreciated.

Michael Jamin:

The big house. Yeah. Quintuplets, the war at Home, big Bang Theory. Ant Farm, mighty Med Sigman and the Sea Monsters. Yeah. Yeah. You got a lot of credits, dude. Now I,

Stephen Engel:

I've been around. I've been around. You've

Michael Jamin:

Been around. Tell me, well, let's first begin with the beginning. Okay. Because I know you started as a lawyer.

Stephen Engel:

That is correct.

Michael Jamin:

And how long were you lawyering?

Stephen Engel:

It felt like forever, but it was really only three years maybe. And

Michael Jamin:

This is in New York, right out of law school.

Stephen Engel:

I went to law school, which was a very big mistake. I knew within a month that I'd made a terrible mistake, maybe sooner.

Michael Jamin:

But why?

Stephen Engel:

I just got there. I went straight from college. Really? Cause I didn't know what else to do. And back then I didn't know I lived in New York. I grew up in a town away from you. And I didn't know what the TV was. I didn't know anything about. And so I was good at going to school. So I went to law school, I applied, I got into a good law school. I went and I just got there and it was like just stultifying, if that's the word it was. But

Michael Jamin:

I thought, what I've heard is that law school is interesting. It's being a lawyer. That's not fun.

Stephen Engel:

No, I had all through college, I wasn't really do a lot of creative writing. I didn't take creative writing courses. But I was actually looking back at some, I found some of my old economics papers and I reread them and I wrote them as if they were Woody Allen vignettes for the new they, they had these big tee ups that were comedic. And then I would get into the substance, but it was with examples that were funny. And then I would sort of sum them up at the end and my professor would always be like, thank you. After reading 25 papers, there's a pleasure to read something that was entertaining. Oh,

Michael Jamin:

That's nice. So

Stephen Engel:

When you get to law school, there was no leeway for that. It was, everything was just completely dry. So intellectually it was kind of interesting, but it was very creatively stifling.

Michael Jamin:

But as a kid you didn't do any creative. No. You were in the theater, you weren't doing anything like that?

Stephen Engel:

No, not really. I mean, I was interested in comedy. If I look backwards, I could see all of these things that I did. I did a TV show in college, a game show that I wrote and hosted. I taught a class on 20th century humor and satire. So all of the things were there. In retrospect, you could see a path that was leading to writing comedy. But I didn't know that it was a job. And it wasn't really until law school that I started exploring doing comedy. I started doing standup a little bit. Really?

Michael Jamin:

I didn't know that.

Stephen Engel:

Yeah.

Michael Jamin:

But then how did you realize it was a job? At what point?

Stephen Engel:

At the time, I had a friend who was doing from college who was doing standup also. We, our girlfriends were best friends and he was a year behind me. He was applied to law school, didn't go and decided he wanted to try to break into writing. And we were both doing standup. And then we said, we just started talking and said we should write a movie. We're like, okay. So we kind of got together one weekend. He was living in la I was in NYU law school. I interviewed for law at law firms in California. So they would fly me out so that we could get together and talk about movie ideas.

Michael Jamin:

Oh

Stephen Engel:

Wow. Yeah. So we came up with an idea. We started writing separately and we knew nothing. We literally knew nothing about writing screenplays. We just had seen movies and you knows. And so we were like started writing this idea that we thought it was really great. We had about 50 pages that we thought were fantastic. So we ended up through, a friend of a friend had lunch with a guy who was a professional screenwriter and he told us, you know, should read this book screenplay by Sid Field, which everyone should read. They're trying to write. So we read this book and we're like, oh no, you're doing it wrong. We dunno anything. And we realized that the 50 pages that we wrote that we thought were gold should have been five pages. Nothing was happening. It was just character development, character development, joke, joke, joke, joke, joke, funny scenes. So we took those 50 pages, compressed them down to five pages and came up with a proper structure. And then we were writing this whole movie. Well, he was pursuing his career and I was a lawyer guy guy's name by the way is Rob Burnett, who we were writing partners. And he went on to great success at David Letterman. And he was executive

Michael Jamin:

Producer of le. But was he the head writer or executive

Stephen Engel:

Producer? Head writer, executive producer. And basically president of Worldwide Pants. And we wrote five movies together for studios, various studios. And ultimately I got a job on Dream On and moved out to LA to write by myself because he was writing a Letterman by himself. And at that point we didn't need to collaborate because we both had individual careers.

Michael Jamin:

You skipped a step. How did you get hired on Dream On?

Stephen Engel:

Okay. He and I were writing this movie. I got a law job when I graduated. They, I'd worked there for the summer. They offered me a job when I graduated. And I did the first risky thing I'd ever done in my life. I had never done anything remotely rebellious. And I decided that I was going to take probably the first gap year that anyone ever took. Oh wow. I asked the firm if I could defer my job for a year because I was trying to write. They're like, okay, yeah, no problem. You'll have a job waiting for you in a year. So during that year we kept working on this screenplay and trying to finish it and hone it. And he was still working at Letterman and he at that point had had risen from an intern to work in the talent department to being a writer.

So he worked with a woman, we finished a screenplay and he worked with a woman. He shared an office in the talent department with a woman who had been there a long time and decided to leave to become a manager. And her only client at that point was I think Chris Elliot who had been on Letterman. So he knew, she knew that we had this movie because Rob had mentioned, she's like, let me see it when you're done. I'll see if I could do anything with it. So she read it and she sent it out and got us hired to write a movie for 20th Century Fox. Oh wow. A week before I started my law job. And I didn't want to not start the law job because we were a writing team. It was like guild minimum. I thought this may be the only writing job I ever have and I have a pretty high paying law job. Let me try to do both and keep both paths open as long as I can. So I did that essentially for three years. I practiced law while I was writing the entire time writing movies for studios.

Michael Jamin:

And Wait, and you were practicing law out here in la?

Stephen Engel:

I was in New York. You

Michael Jamin:

Were still in New York?

Stephen Engel:

I was still in New York. And essentially the law didn't know what I was doing. So I had this double life where I was treating my law job, this very prestigious law job. I was a bartender gig writing movies at the same time. And eventually I couldn't keep all the balls up in the air. The law firm said, you know what? We want you to go, we got a great treat for you. We're going to send you back to law school at night to get your master's in tax law. I'm like, that's fantastic. And I didn't tell them was, now I had two jobs and I was going to school at night

Michael Jamin:

And you couldn't turn down. You couldn't turn on their offer.

Stephen Engel:

I couldn't tell them. And eventually I couldn't do it anymore. I was getting too much work at the law firm. I had school screenplays, deadlines. I just finally kind of went into work one day and just kind of said, I no moss.

Michael Jamin:

How'd that go over?

Stephen Engel:

They were like, you know what, this makes so much sense because we were all, you seem really smart and you're really good at what you do, but it just didn't feel like your heart was in it. Yeah, right. So they could tell and it answered a lot of questions for them. So then I quit and decided to write full time panicked that I had just thrown my entire life away. So we ended up getting, because by the way, that manager was Lori David. She went out to marry Lori Leonard who went out to marry Larry David and divorce Larry. David and then produce an Inconvenient Truth as she won an Oscar for that.

Michael Jamin:

But then she submit you to get, how did you your Hands fund for

Stephen Engel:

Dream On? For Dream on. So I had, eventually what happened was we got a second screenplay deal to write another movie and she said, by the way, I am not allowed to negotiate your deal cause I'm a manager, so I'm going to bring an agent in to negotiate your deal. And we kind of said, well then I guess maybe we should look for an agent rather than just have this guy come in and do the deal and I'm not sure we really need a manager and an agent. Back then you didn't. We ended up getting an agent at icm. Right. A feature agent. And we then did a couple of other projects and eventually I started between drafts of a movie I was writing. Rob by the way, was at this point a writer at Letterman and I quit my law job. So I was like, well if he has a day job while we're writing movies at night, I need my own career as an individual.

So I wrote a movie by myself, gave it to my agent, he shopped it around. I got a lot of meetings and stuff. And then I wrote a just a TV spec on the whim between drafts of this movie because I felt like taking a break from it. And I gave that to my feature agent. He gave it to a TV agent at ICM who loved it and started submitting me around. And I ended up meeting with Kaufman and Crane for a show, not Dream On, they had Dream on. And they had another pilot that was going to series on nbc.

Michael Jamin:

What show was that? And

Stephen Engel:

It was a show called The Powers that nobody saw. It was with John Forsyth and Right. David Hyde had an amazing cast. So I go to meet with them and my agent had sent me episodes of Dream On and had sent me the pilot of the show. So they come in and they go, what'd you think of the pilot? I go, yeah, it was pretty good, but I really like Dream on. I'd never seen it before. And I kept talking about Dream On and how much I loved it. And we had a really good meeting. And then when I get back, my agent calls me and says, just so you know, when you go up for a show and someone says, how'd you like the pilot? And that's the show you're up for. Yeah. You loved the pilot and it gets the show you want to work on. Right. They're not hiring for Dream on right now and they don't want to hire you on this pilot cause you didn't seem interested, interested. I'm like, okay. Yeah. And then a month later they were hiring for Dream On and they remembered me and they hired me for that instead. So I did. And in fact, I ended up back backing into this job that I much preferred.

Michael Jamin:

How, but how many years were you dream on before they bumped you to showrunner? Okay,

Stephen Engel:

So I was a stor. I went as staff writer, not had not worked a day in television. Really? Andy Gordon was Andy and Eileen. It was their first day right writer named Howard Morris. It was his first day. We were all three staff writers, but I had written five movies. So I had a pretty good understanding of story structure and if you can write a movie, you can write a tv. So I did the first season Astor as staff writer. The next season I was a story editor and then the showrunners left and they needed to find a new showrunner and they couldn't find anyone they liked. And eventually they just said, I think Stephen can do it. So I literally went from being my second year, I was a story editor or executive story editor, maybe I got a bump at the end to showrunner.

Michael Jamin:

That's crazy.

Stephen Engel:

So I was, I didn't know if I was ready at all. I was just, the only reason to say no would've been out of fear. And I realized worst case scenario, if I completely flame out then so they bring someone in over me and I'm still in the same position.

Michael Jamin:

And then what were they? Or they fire you, but they get

Stephen Engel:

Rid of you. Well, I don't think they probably would've just kept me around because I was the only one who knew the show.

Michael Jamin:

And how many years did you run it for?

Stephen Engel:

I ran for the next two seasons, the last and then the show ended.

Michael Jamin:

And why do you think they left? Why did they leave the show? Their own show. They had a deal somewhere.

Stephen Engel:

Har and Crane created the show, ran it for three seasons. They were getting paid like a dollar to do this. They had never done anything. It was insane how little money they were making. And they got a deal at Warner Brothers. So between season two and three, they had created a show before Friends called Family Album. And I went and worked on that between Seasons of Friends, between Seasons of Dream On. And then I went back to Dream on as the showrunner. So the season, the second season, two other writers who had been on, who had been producers, Jeff Greens son and Jeff Straus rose to showrunner, then they left and took a deal at Universal. So there was nobody, because they weren't paying a lot, so people were going to more lucrative jobs. So they needed a showrunner and nobody had else had worked on the show. And they were like, we could bring in someone else who doesn't know the show or we could let Steven try.

Michael Jamin:

And I mean, you were not intimidated by, I mean, I

Stephen Engel:

Was scared shitless.

Michael Jamin:

Right. I mean,

Stephen Engel:

I didn't know what I was doing. I had no idea. I learned, fortunately I learned from really good people,

Michael Jamin:

But I remember when we worked together and just shoot me the first six episodes. First season, yeah. I was, was useless. And I didn't know what to say. And I would look at you guys, the more senior writers. I'm like, how did they know what to say? How did they know? I mean it was real. I was so lost. Yeah.

Stephen Engel:

I think part of it had been that I was a little older than you were. I had already been a lawyer for, so I was like 30 when I had my staff writer job. So maybe I was a little bit more confident just in Gen general. You were like 25, 23.

Michael Jamin:

I was 26. I was 26. Ok. But ok.

Stephen Engel:

So I had gotten my first writing job when I was 26 writing a movie. And I, so I done a bunch of movies, I understood structure, I had a confidence in that I knew how to tell a story. So I guess I kind of, the first day of Dream On, I remember pitching something where they were telling a story that had a fairly conventional ending where everything worked out really well. And I pitched this subversive twist on it where the character looks like the character was going to win. And then at the end it all got pulled out from under him. And they were all, I think that's better because I had just not really been around network television or even any kind of television. So I was pitching kind of a lot of, I don't know, movie, more movie-like ideas I guess.

Michael Jamin:

That's so interesting because I really remember, I remember on jhu Me, you would stand at the board a lot. I remember, to be honest, we often disagree with Levitan. And you made such a compelling case and you're always at the board. You had immaculate handwriting and you're always standing at the board breaking the story and you'd make an argument. And it was so compelling. I'm like, maybe we should be listening to this guy. It was dooms. If we don't what's going to happen, of course there's many ways you could do it, but of course I was like, of course. I was like, wow, what's going to happen if we don't do it that way?

Stephen Engel:

It's very funny. I remember the first season of Dream on Howard Morris who I love. He's a great guy, very emotional guy. And I was very logical in a lot of ways. And he had written a script and he had this whole run that he really was in love with. And the script was long. We needed cuts. And I was like, I think we can cut from here to two pages later. And you really, the story actually, not only would you not miss it, but the story would actually be working better and be more tight. And he was like, you can't do that. You can't possibly do that. This is the greatest thing that's ever been written. It is really good. But I think we need cuts. And I don't think it's actually, and one by one, everybody in the room was like, I think he's right. And he was losing his mind. He was like, right, don't listen to him using his logic on you. He's a magician. And we ended up cutting it and it ended up working better. So it's funny that I guess the legal training came in, I guess to some use

Michael Jamin:

Well, yeah, I, but I also remember you saying, I quote you as this saying this, that I have to get this right. Your worst day as a writer was still better than your best day as a lawyer.

Stephen Engel:

It was probably, I'm not sure that's true anymore.

Michael Jamin:

I believe that

Stephen Engel:

For a long time that was true. I would say there have been some dark days. But what

Michael Jamin:

Do dark days look like then for you? Yeah. What is

Stephen Engel:

It? Well, the day your show gets canceled, right? There were days, there was a, one show got canceled where I was like, oh, thank God. Right? Because I had a deal behind it and it was like a nightmare. And I hated going there every minute. And I was like, I had to go into the room and pretend like I got really bad news. Everyone, the show's been canceled. I was like, this is the best thing that's ever happened to me. There are sometimes when it's so bad you're like, just end it. Just fucking euthanize me. So that there are days where it show you isn't going badly, gets canceled and then it's kind of heartbreaking.

Michael Jamin:

Now do you have a preference? Cause you've done a lot. Do you have a preference between working single camera R? Right. Writing.

Stephen Engel:

I prefer single camera. Why? I think it comes from my feature writing career. It was funny, I made such a conversion when I worked on that show family album with Kauffman and Crane. We went in and there was some joke in my script and it was a good joke I thought. And we go to the table read and it doesn't do great at the table. This is my first time I've ever had been to a multi cam table read ever my first multi cam script. And everyone in the room is kind of like, yeah, I think we maybe want to punch this joke. And David Crane to his credit was like, no, I believe in this joke. And there's a really good smart joke. So we go to the run through first run through, it dies. And again, everyone's like, maybe we want to pitch on this. And David's like, no, no, I really, let's give it one more day. I don't think, I feel like they didn't do a great job on it. Let's give it one more day. By the third day it dies again. And same thing. And David's like, let's give it another day. He goes, I think it's rye. I'm at this point I'm completely converted. I'm like, fuck rye. Rye is fucking crickets.

We could pitch 20 more jokes. It took me three days to realize that, you know, can't get away with clever. You need to get real laughs.

Michael Jamin:

Right.

Stephen Engel:

And I'd like, I like it. I just like the storytelling in Multicam a little bit better. Or

Michael Jamin:

Just you, the storytelling multicam better.

Stephen Engel:

No, no. In single Camm a bit better. Yeah. Frankly, I used to think a perfect job for me would be you write the scripts and then you send them out magazines. You don't actually have to produce them. Oh yeah. That was always where the hard,

Michael Jamin:

It's never as funny as it is. It's never as

Stephen Engel:

Funny. Sometimes it is. It depends on your cast. But other times it's the rewriting and the endless rewriting. It's just have them read it and let them imagine what it might look like.

Michael Jamin:

It's called a book.

Stephen Engel:

It's called a book. Yeah.

Michael Jamin:

There was a episode, I think it was, not sure if you were there then, but I, I was fighting, I fought with Sievert, my partner about a joke that I wanted in the script. I go, this joke is going to kill. And he's like, this joke is terrible. I'm like, it's going in, it's going. And we got blows over it. We put it in the script, we go to the table and the joke just dies. It gets nothing. And then I start laughing hysterically. He goes like, cause how could I have been so wrong and so arrogant? And I'm laughing hysterically Now everyone's looking at seabird because they're like, it's his joke. You're laughing at

Stephen Engel:

Him. And now I'm

Michael Jamin:

Laughing even more. I'm like, yeah, it's his fucking trouble.

Stephen Engel:

There's nothing more humbling than watching your jokes die on a stage. Like after a while you get used to it. But the great thing about single cam on, dream on, we'd write it, we'd go out and film it. And if no one's laughing, you never know.

Michael Jamin:

You never know. Right. But did you can't believe in it. But you did table reads for Dream on, I'm sure, right? Did

Stephen Engel:

Not do table reads.

Michael Jamin:

That's so interesting. How did you get away away with that?

Stephen Engel:

They had no, they didn't. They gave no notes. H B O gave no notes. I remember getting one note one time and being like, I can't work like this. This joke is, I'm not changing this joke. And I was like, indignant a playwright. Eugene O'Neal had been

Michael Jamin:

Married

Stephen Engel:

To change a stage direction. And then I got to network and it was like, oh, okay.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. Now these are notes. This is how it works. When you were, now you've done also a lot of kit shows. I mean, you get a lot of notes on Kit shows more or less. Oh my

Stephen Engel:

God. Yeah. You'd get tons of notes

Michael Jamin:

More than networks.

Stephen Engel:

I did. Oftentimes you get a note, it's like, I please take some of these jokes out. I we doesn't need to be this funny,

Michael Jamin:

Real, what's the problem with, all right,

Stephen Engel:

I can get you the best punch down. Writers in. Yeah,

Michael Jamin:

Bring them in. But really they don't want fun. Is that what kind of notes they give you in these show? I did a

Stephen Engel:

Show, did a show this, show this Sigma and the Sea Monsters reboot, which was

Michael Jamin:

Very scary

Stephen Engel:

For Amazon. And the first thing we turned in there, it was very funny. And they were like, we don't really do this. It's like, we don't want this to be funny. As nearly as funny as this script is, it's just don't feel compelled to put a joke on every page. I'm like a joke. You don't want one joke on it on every page. And they're like, no, if it's warm and fuzzy and they just were afraid that it was going to feel too Disney or too

Michael Jamin:

No

Stephen Engel:

Jokey networky or jokey or whatever.

Michael Jamin:

Because when you look back at sitcoms from the sixties and seventies family affair, there weren't a lot of jokes in Family Affair. I mean,

Stephen Engel:

No, I think that's what they were going for. They were going for just kind of poignant and sort of warm. They, I feel they felt like jokes would alienate people and be too controversial. Or they kept referring to their viewers as customers,

Michael Jamin:

Buyers. They

Stephen Engel:

Want buyers.

Michael Jamin:

Buyers,

Stephen Engel:

Our buyers, our customers don't really want that. I'm like, okay, all right.

Michael Jamin:

That's so good. I wonder if that's, that's really how they saw them is like, yeah, what else were they going to about?

Stephen Engel:

Yeah, yeah. It was,

Michael Jamin:

Oh my God. Did that make the hours easier since you didn't have to punch up

Stephen Engel:

Or doing a sort of family shows?

Michael Jamin:

Are you getting out earlier?

Stephen Engel:

Yeah. Yeah. I think so. For the most part. We never phoned it in. We were always trying to do, and we never wrote down the shows that I worked on. We made them as funny as we could and as bendy and weird as we could, oftentimes we would get notes saying, this is too, I think you're, you kids aren't going to get this. But what they don't get, they'll ask their parents or their older siblings and let's not underestimate the audience watching Bugs Bunny cartoons. You're going to still laugh and you may not get every level. So we were kind of writing it for the adults.

Michael Jamin:

You were able to push back on that.

Stephen Engel:

Yeah, yeah. I mean, I guess their recourse was ultimately to cancel you if you weren't doing what they wanted you to do.

Michael Jamin:

Well, do they have different ways of I they must, different ways of measuring. We haven't done too many streaming shows, but measuring when people are dropping off, what kind of stuff they like more statistics. Do they share that with you?

Stephen Engel:

No,

Michael Jamin:

No, never.

Stephen Engel:

I only did mean the Amazon was the only streaming show and they never really wanted this show. I don't think to begin with. I think it was inherited from the previous regime or something. It was like the whole thing was driven by puppets and they were, if we had our druthers, we wouldn't even have the puppets in it. Well, well the main character is a puppet, so you're kind of stuck.

Michael Jamin:

So, oh man, that's Hollywood man. Yeah. Now do you, but you must get more obviously opportunities in the children's businesses.

Stephen Engel:

I don't. I don't. Don't. And I don't pursue them. I didn't really want to do it. Right. I basically did it. I only did it because it was a show writing opportunity and I didn't want work on someone else's show at that point. And I also leveraged it into, I wanted, I said, I'll do it if I can direct.

Michael Jamin:

Okay.

Stephen Engel:

So I ended up getting in the DGA and directing a handful of episodes.

Michael Jamin:

And they were single camera?

Stephen Engel:

No, they were multi

Michael Jamin:

Camera, multi and so interesting.

Stephen Engel:

And it was kind of fun. I mean, I had just sort of aged out of coaching my kids little league and basketball teams and stuff. So they were now just had just more or less finished that. So working on a show, that was almost like being a coach or a camp counselor in a weird way. You'd go to the stage, the kids would be thrilled to see you, you'd get down on one knee and get eye level with them and give them a compliment sandwich. Do you know that from coaching?

Michael Jamin:

No. What is that?

Stephen Engel:

A compliment sandwich is basically in baseball you would literally get down on a knee and you'd say you're doing tee-ball. And in tee-ball what happens invariably is a kid hits the ball to left field and every kid on the field runs to get the ball from every position, or at least a handful of them do. So you get down on the knee and you go, I love your hustle and great enthusiasm. Then you put the criticism in the middle and you're like, but you know, need to stay where your position is so that everybody has their own spot. And if the balls it to you, the ball, you know, field it. If the balls it to left field, they field it. But again, great energy and keep up that enthusiasm. So you put the constructive criticism in between two compliments. I

Michael Jamin:

Would think that they would remember the first thing and the last thing they heard.

Stephen Engel:

Well, that's great job. We did a joke like that. We did a joke like that where a character on an forum was giving a note to somebody. They were doing a musical performance or something, and the main character said to this other character, I really like your enthusiasm. Try to hit at least any of the notes if possible because your singing's not good at all. But again, great energy. And the character goes, thanks. Hey, thanks.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, that's what I would, so that's so interesting. And were you dealing with a lot of parents on adult momager or

Stephen Engel:

Whatever? Yeah, there was a lot of that. It was fun, but creatively it was like, I'm done. This I just want to do, I'd rather not work and just write stuff I want to write than write on a kid show at this point. Because I also felt like they weren't really looking for you to do anything smart and that smart or that funny. It's changed. I think they're trying to be more creative and more inventive now, but at the time it just felt like, I don't really feel like doing this anymore. It's just not like someone would say, what are you working on? I'm like, it's not important. Don't worry about it. You're not going to watch it. It's fine.

Michael Jamin:

Well

Stephen Engel:

Fine for what? But I don't watch it. You're not going to watch it.

Michael Jamin:

But when you say working on your own stuff now, so whatever, you'll just write stuff on spec and hope to

Stephen Engel:

Sell. Yeah, I'll pitch stuff. I'll write stuff on spec. I've written a bunch of specs recently where I've tried every possible way to skin a cat in this business. I'm like, it's all I'm going to write spec scripts. That way they'll totally see what the show is. And then I would have a bible behind it to pitch all of these things. And I've had a couple of things where I had studios say, let's go out with this, but let's pitch it. You didn't write it

Michael Jamin:

Right yet.

Stephen Engel:

I'm like, well, why would you do that? Because I've got it right here. And

Michael Jamin:

Because they want to put their thumbprints on, they

Stephen Engel:

Want to put their imprimatur on it. So the way I put it is, if you give, give someone a baked fully baked cake, they'll be like, this is a, it's a good cake, but I've got this recipe for a cake. Yeah, that's going to be the best cake that's ever been made and we're going to put in all these different ingredients and make it even better. And then that gets turned in and they're like, it's a cake. There's always that unknown potential of what a pitch is going to be. Whereas a spec, they'll go, well, there's this one thing I'm not sure about or this other thing and they want to get involved.

Michael Jamin:

But have you ever sold anything on spec? Because

Stephen Engel:

When you, honestly, I don't think I have. I

Michael Jamin:

Know haven't written a few.

Stephen Engel:

I have a project, I have a project right now that it, we're going back and forth on negotiations, negotiating an option for them to, to option the script. And they're trying to decide whether we should go out with the script or go out or whether I should reverse engineer the pitch.

Michael Jamin:

But

Stephen Engel:

We have an option. They have an option for a year within a purchase with a purchase price to buy the script. What would happen is if we pitch it, they would basically go, okay, just wait three months and then turn in the script that you've already written because we left the script. But again, it's unclear as to what my feeling is. We should send out the script because the idea and it's in and of itself is not necessarily that unique. It's the execution of the idea. That's unique. Of course. And I think that's what got you interested. If I had just pitched you this idea, you probably would've said, well, I don't know. It seems like there's stuff out there like that. But it was my script that got you excited.

Michael Jamin:

Right, right. I remember early on, I wonder if you still feel this way. I remember I just shoot me, you telling me, yeah, because you were ready to leave, move on. And you're like, yeah, I want to go back to running a show. And then you did couple many shows. Yeah. But do you still feel that way? Do you care so much whether you're running it or,

Stephen Engel:

No, I've had good experiences and bad experiences doing both for a while after the big house, which was a good experience. My kids were at that point, maybe, how old were they? Eight and six. And I was running a show was very all consuming. And you, yeah, you never go home. I mean, yeah, even when you're home, you're like, you've got outlines to read, you've got cuts to watch, you've got the weight of the show on your shoulders at all times. You can't get away from it. And I was like, I really want to be more present. I want to be able to go to my kids' games. I want to be come home and be able to relax. So I'm like, I want to go on be someone else's, like consigliere, I'll be the number two. Yeah. I'll go, here's what I would do. Do it. Don't do it whatever you want. And then go home and be like, I'm done for the day. And I did that for a while. And I think in retrospect it sort of took me off of the showrunner showrunner's list for doing that for three or four years. I think people were necessarily remembering or thinking me necessarily when they were looking for showrunners because I was all of a sudden now someone's number two. But I don't regret it because I got to spend the time with my family.

Michael Jamin:

But now I now want to go back to running. I mean, it is a lot of work,

Stephen Engel:

My kid, well, right now, honestly, nobody, you know me, but anyone under the age of 40 doesn't, has never worked with me and doesn't know who I am. So for me to get a job on another show, because I, it's been a while since I've worked on a show where with people who would be young enough to go, oh, we need to work with this guy. He's really smart and good and funny. If I'm going to get a job, it's because I'm going to create a show myself and run it. And that's the job I'll have. I don't even know if my agent even submits me. I have no idea. So I'm back to just pitching and writing my own stuff and if it sells, of course I'll run it. So look, they both have their perils. I missed my kind of adolescence as a TV writer. I went from being right a second grader to a college student. I never had that. So I got to go and be on someone else's show. And sometimes it was good and sometimes it was bad. I worked in the Big Bang theory and it was not fun

Michael Jamin:

From a lot of people. The

Stephen Engel:

Most fun place to work, it was delightful show. But I used to not going to work every day. Right. Cause I didn't take the tone of the show, the work environment, I mean the tone of the show, I was fine not dictating the tone of the show, but I was not enjoying the tone of the work environment.

Michael Jamin:

I got you. I know what you're

Stephen Engel:

Saying. So it was not a good experience. I dreaded going every day. It was a job. It, I might as well have been a lawyer again.

Michael Jamin:

Hey, it's Michael. If you like my videos and you want me to email them to you for free, join my watch list. Every Friday I send out my top three videos. These are for writers, actors, creative types. You can unsubscribe whenever you want. I'm not going to spam you and it's absolutely free. Just go to michaeljamin.com/watchlist.

Yeah. You've had many experiences like that though. Were you like you pitting your stomach every morning?

Stephen Engel:

Not that many once on my own show, just because I had a difficult situation with one of the stars who it's not worth going into, but

Michael Jamin:

At least on the air.

Stephen Engel:

What's

Michael Jamin:

That? At least? At least not on the air. Not

Stephen Engel:

On the air. But most shows have been, some are better than others. I worked on a show that it was very dysfunctional and I've gone into work on shows where, where I had a deal where they were like, we need you to go help on this show. And it's kind of in shambles. I'm like, I'll go in and help, but I'm going in between the hours of 10 and seven. And if they start at five, I'll be there from five to seven.

Michael Jamin:

But okay, you can make that deal with the studio. But then the minute the showrunner finds out about that, during I made it

Stephen Engel:

With the show, I made the deal with the showrunner.

Michael Jamin:

Oh, okay.

Stephen Engel:

Because they needed the help. And I was like, I'm not going down this sinkhole. I've already, I'm in a deal. I don't, I'm doing this. I'm helping out because I want to be a team player, but I'm going to help out within the hours that are reasonable hours. And it was so dysfunctional, people would show up and play guitars for four hours and play ping pong. And I'm like, are we going to work or not work? So I'm like, let me know when we're starting and I'll be there.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, I know. I wonder, I don't know if that happens so much anymore. I think that's something that's been cleaned up a little bit.

Stephen Engel:

I don't know. I don't know mean, look, some shows, some showrunners are not, some creators become writers, become creators are not prepared to be a showrunner. They don't know how to manage a business. That's

Michael Jamin:

Exactly right.

Stephen Engel:

And it's a different skillset being a talented writer and being a manager or a C E o or different skillsets. And some people are lucky enough to have both skills. Some people are good CEOs but not great writers and they need a better team. And some people are great writers and need someone to help them literally get through the day. And

Michael Jamin:

People don't realize that because no one goes into comedy writing to become a manager of people. No.

Stephen Engel:

And if you have the talent, you eventually rise to a level where you're expected to all of a sudden be in charge of 150 people and to show up every day on time and to try to be responsible and actually conduct yourself in a way that's professional. And not everyone can do that.

Michael Jamin:

And always the trickiest thing. I think as a show runners, no one went to push knowing how far you can push back against a network note or even a difficult actor. Yeah. And what's your thought on that?

Stephen Engel:

Well, what I used to do is they never would give me a note. The trick to getting and addressing notes is to get them to realize that they're being heard. And you'll say, we're not going to figure this out right now together. I hear you. I know what, I know exactly what to do. And then go off and change it enough that they feel like you've taken their, at least into consideration their thought, their thoughts into consideration. But oftentimes what I would sometimes do is they'd give a note. I'm like, we can do that. But just so you know, here's the ripple effect. If we do that, then this scene here no longer makes sense because this scene that you really love won't make sense because we've already revealed this information. So this scene doesn't play and then this scene doesn't work because whatever this and this and this, we can do it. And I'm have to change those scenes and I'm willing to, but just realize that it's not as simple as making this one change here. There are ripple effects throughout the rest of the script. And they're like, you know what? You're right. Stuff's working great. Don't worry about it.

So they don't know. They don't necessarily always see the big picture and understand how pulling one thread could unravel the entire sweater. So I just present it to them and go, would you like me to do that? We can do that. And then they go, no, no. Like I, I hear what you want and I'll massage it without having to do those things. But I hear what you're saying and I'll try to adjust it as best I can without unraveling the whole script

Michael Jamin:

And then working. What about working with difficult actors?

Stephen Engel:

That's harder. That's harder because you can't

Michael Jamin:

Put the words in their mouth. You can't make mistake, you can't

Stephen Engel:

Make them do it. I mean, had an actor who literally was so he just wanted to take over the show and was, he never should have done it. They backed up a money truck to get him to do it and he didn't want to do it. And he did it reluctantly and didn't wanted it to be his show and not my show. So I think wanted tried to get rid of me and came to table reads with sunglasses on and just looked down the whole time. And which was the best thing that ever happened because the network saw that he was not doing his job. He was doing my job, but he wasn't doing his. But they're

Michael Jamin:

Still going to take his side. The

Stephen Engel:

Show went down, but I didn't get, they were like, you handed yourself really professionally. And that person,

Michael Jamin:

Were you worried so much about that? Are you worried so much about protecting your reputa reputation like that within the industry? I mean,

Stephen Engel:

You always have to be a little bit worried. I, I would probably think that just given my, I don't know, I guess I have a, it's maybe it's coming from being a lawyer. I can see, if you tell me, like I mentioned, if we should change this joke or this line or this, do we need this? I can see all of the ramifications all at once. So sometimes I will, by pointing out the flaws in the note, some executives don't want to hear that. They don't want to know. They just want to think that they're right. Or they also want you to basically, I remember in one situation on a show where they were like, we've got great news. The network wants to do a mini room. I'm like, great.

Michael Jamin:

How's that? Great news? The news?

Stephen Engel:

I thought the deal was they're either going to pick up the show or not. That's why we went there. It's

Michael Jamin:

Great news for us.

Stephen Engel:

They're like, well, why wouldn't you want to delve into the characters more? And I do, but that's not the deal we negotiated and now you're basically, I have to do all the same work for one 10th of the money. And they didn't want to hear that. So I think sometimes it's just best to be like, and I would also maybe sometimes have a tendency if somebody is lying blatantly to me and I say, wait, I don't understand last, yesterday you said X, Y, and Z, but now you're saying A, B, and C. So I'm confused. And they just want to go. They don't want to be called out on that.

Michael Jamin:

Right?

Stephen Engel:

So they're like, look, why are you being difficult? I'm like, I'm not, I'm just asking for clarification. Cause it seems like you're telling me two different things and I don't understand as opposed to just going, okay, I hear you. We'll do it without any. So I think sometimes you just have to swallow your pride and just eat shit and not speak up about it.

Michael Jamin:

The problem is you're saying, I feel like most of those fights are not winnable.

Stephen Engel:

They're not winnable. So there's no point in pointing it out. But sometimes I'm just, I don't, don't understand. Just tell me what, what's going on and then we can move forward. But they sometimes they don't even remember what's what they're spinning.

Michael Jamin:

I don't think I've ever convinced an studio or network executive that I was and they were wrong. I don't think I've

Stephen Engel:

Ever, it may have been a per victory, but I have.

Michael Jamin:

You were fired shortly afterwards.

Stephen Engel:

No, I mean it just may be whatever. Yeah, you're right if you're doing it this way. But in the long run, they just maybe weren't that happy with the direction, general

Michael Jamin:

Direction. Right.

Stephen Engel:

I did the show where this kid show, and it was about a superhero hospital and there were villains and there were heroes and superheroes and super villains. And we wanted the villains and the heroes to have distinct personalities and flaws and be funny. They could be a villain and be funny at the same time. They're like, look, just have them villains. Just be scary and don't give them, they don't have to be funny. But we're writing a comedy and eventually we took a lot of the jokes out, but we didn't want to deliver a show that we didn't believe in. And then ultimately they were like, we did two seasons. And they were like, this is not really what we want to do. So they didn't do a third season. So you either go down with your ship and what you do, the show you want to do and have it not get picked up for another season or do a show for four seasons that you don't believe in.

Michael Jamin:

Though a lot of people on social media, they say, well, they don't understand. I think all the writers in Hollywood terrible, because if all the shows I'm like, you don't understand how shows are made. It's like, no, no. Sometimes the system is designed to make a show bad and there's really nothing you can do about it other than either,

Stephen Engel:

I mean, no one's looking to make a show bad. It's just what the creator thinks is good and what the network thinks is good may not be the same thing. There's that famous story about what those guys who did that Stephen Weber show called Cursed,

Michael Jamin:

I dunno if I know this story. Okay.

Stephen Engel:

Steven Webber did a show, there was a show starring Stephen Webber, it was called Cursed. It was for n b NBC back in the nineties. And the premise was, Stephen Webber is like this kind of womanizing dating machine who goes on this date and with a I, you shouldn't even say Gypsy, I guess, I dunno if it's derogatory, but a woman who puts a spell on it, he basically ghosts her or doesn't call her or is not nice to her on a date. And turns out she puts a curse on him that he's never going to find love and oh, his romantic life is going to be a disaster. Okay. So the cast, Steven Weber, he's super charming and funny. They decide to pick up the show and they go, we're picking up the show, but we have one elemental change if we'd like to pick. It's a small note. They're like, okay, what is it? He goes, we don't want him to be cursed. They're like all cursed. They're like, well, we can change it. We'll like so. Well, well, the Steven Weber show.

Michael Jamin:

Okay,

Stephen Engel:

So now what's the premise about Steven Weber dating?

Michael Jamin:

Oh, okay. But he is not having a hard time dating. He's

Stephen Engel:

Just, he either is but there's no curse.

Michael Jamin:

There's no curse.

Stephen Engel:

Yeah. Okay. Nig did a show called Inside Schwartz, and the whole idea of it was that you're inside the main character's head. Right. So the idea is that, you know, get to see his internal and hear his internal dialogue with characters he's talking to that only he can see. All right. And at one point about halfway through the series, the president of the network came to run, came to talk to me after a run through and said, look, we really like the main character. He's a great actor, but he's like, we want it to be more of a Michael J. Fox character dives into things without thinking. I'm like, well, the character is written is an overthinker and he's thinking about everything. And we dramatize those in the forms of him talking to these people who only he sees. He goes, well we, no, we don't. We want him to not be an overthinker. We want him to be just to jump into stuff. I'm like, so I'm writing inside Schwartz and you want outside Schwartz, right? And they went exactly perfect. I said, all right, I guess. But at that point it's like, how do you turn a aircraft carrier around

Through, and you've got four or five scripts that are ready to go that are all, hold on, I'm

Michael Jamin:

Hollywood

Stephen Engel:

That are written inside Schwartz, and you want outside Schwartz. And they're like, well come up with new scripts, you know, can take an extra week, a hiatus and change. So we had to basically change course and make an adjustment. So just because they think, what if they changed their minds? They love something when they saw it and then they start to panic that they think it should be this, and they the next day have a completely different idea. But it, it's just, that's the idea they woke up with.

Michael Jamin:

Or often it's whatever was a hit over the weekend, that's what they want and make it more like that.

Stephen Engel:

Exactly. Exactly. So that has ramifications and real life ramifications that you've then got to make work. And it's your job, unfortunately sometimes is to try to turn a cat into a monkey. It's just like, all right, that's what I'm going to have to try to do.

Michael Jamin:

And are you able to do this with a good attitude?

Stephen Engel:

I to, I think I have probably, I have a better attitude about it now. I'm just more mature and it's like, all right, it is what it is. I understand it. Back then, I think I took everything much more personally and I was agonized more about it. Now I'm just like, I come, it's coming and you just have to deal with it or not deal with it or whatever. I, I've walked away from it. I've walked away from a deal on a show where I was like, I didn't feel right about it.

Michael Jamin:

What do you mean you didn't feel right about it?

Stephen Engel:

I just didn't, I don't know, I just wasn't comfortable ultimately with the people I was going to be working with. As I got to know them better, the deal wasn't the greatest deal and I was like, I don't think this is worth it. I think this is going to be a nightmare. And I just said, I turned wouldn't, they didn't come up. I just said, you know what, no mean, at the time I was running a different show, so this was development behind it, so I didn't need the job, but I was like, I see the writing on the wall here and if I can't, you can't meet my numbers and this is going to be unpleasant. And I can already tell. And

Michael Jamin:

How do you think they took it when you did that? No one likes to hear that

Stephen Engel:

They were really not happy. I mean, yeah, really. I said, look, I'm just not comfortable with it. And I just, things had changed. It was an idea that it's not worth going into. It was easier to just say, forget, don't rather not do it than go into what I know is going to be a shit storm

Michael Jamin:

Right now. Not enough money. The industry has changed so much even in the past maybe 10 years or so. But I dunno, what are your thoughts on it? What are your thoughts on where it's going? Look,

Stephen Engel:

I'm one of those people who, whatever, everyone who's not in the industry says, oh, must be so great now, all these different streaming networks and some to sell shows. I'm like, it's not great. First of all, these places are, you know, do all the same work and you're doing six episodes or eight episodes or 10 episodes, and that's exactly when the curve starts to get, there's a very steep curve getting a show off the ground. And then it's like, now I get the show and now it's sort of the, it's heavy lifting at the beginning and then it sort of tapers off and it's always heavy lifting, but you start to figure it out. And then for the back nine it's like, it's not as hard if you stay on top of it and you get stories broken on time. So you're doing all of the heavy lifting without any of the economies of scale and you're only getting paid by the episode and you're working 40 weeks to do seven episodes or eight episodes instead of 40 weeks to do 22 episodes.

Michael Jamin:

Okay. So in, cause they make, that's not the case on many of the shows we're doing. Maybe they're lower budget, they just usually bring you on thete, the writing staff in pre-production. And so then you're the show

Stephen Engel:

Runners. But as a showrunner, you've got to do, you're there for whatever the eight saying you're doing eight episodes, you're going to do eight weeks of pre-production and writing. You're going to do eight weeks or more of production, then you're going to do eight to 10 weeks of post. And yeah, you're working 35 weeks to do those eight episodes. Whereas if you're working on a network show for 22 episodes, you work 40 weeks and you do, you get 22 fees. So the writers who come in and do their six or 12 weeks get paid for their eight episodes and not, that said they work there eight weeks and they do their 12, their eight episodes. Do you

Michael Jamin:

Feel this affects the quality of writers that you're able to hire now because they have less training?

Stephen Engel:

I think so. They're not around production. They don't understand or understand production as well. It, it's tricky. I also think that to some extent, I may be alone in this. I think that some of the storytelling and streaming, it feels like a lot of shows feel like they, someone took a movie and they probably didn't sell this movie, and they said, I got an idea for a series and it would be a great movie. But what they end up doing is they, it's those chest spreaders if you were to have a heart bypass or something, it's like they put a chest spreader into the screenplay and they open it up and they jam six episodes of filler in the middle. And the beginning is the first half of a good movie. And the last two episodes, this is the second half of a pretty good movie, and the middle is just treading water. And you're just like, yeah, each episode becomes a chapter in a book. So a lot of writers are not learning how to tell an episode that has a beginning, middle, and end because it's all middle.

Michael Jamin:

Right?

Stephen Engel:

Episode one is a beginning, episode eight is the ending, and everything in the middle is middle. No. Those episodes don't have a beginning, middle, and end. They're picking up from the middle and ending somewhere else in the middle. They're moving the ball down the field. But you don't have a kickoff and you don't, I think a lot of writers maybe don't know how to tell a complete story anymore because there aren't any freestanding episodes.

Michael Jamin:

How do you think these new writers are breaking in today? It's very different than when we were breaking in. How are they getting in?

Stephen Engel:

I teach a course at UCLA and I always, they always ask the same question. How do you get an agent? How do you break in? I guess it's not that different other than the fact that there are maybe fewer barriers to entry. You want to write a web series and shoot it on your phone and send it out to a million people on. Now the trick is it's getting people to see it, but no one was going to read your screenplay. If you're a new writer and you say, Hey, will you read my script and you're in my class? They're like, Hey, can I send you a new script I just wrote? I'm like, no. Yeah, I'm not going to read that. But if they send me, Hey, I wrote a one minute episode, you want to, would you watch it? I'm like, okay. I mean, I could watch a one minute episode of something.

Right? And if it's interesting, then you could go, that's really kind of interesting. Let's talk about it. So there are ways to get in. I hired a writer on an farm I was writing with a guy named Dan Sinner. Sinner, great guy, funny writer. And we were looking for an assistant. So we met this woman and she came in and she had no experience as an assistant, but she had just graduated from Harvard six months earlier. But she mentioned she had a Twitter feed and that she had written a couple of jokes that somehow Maude Aow had found. And she was like 12. And she tweeted it, retweeted it, and then because Judd Aow followed her and saw the jokes, he started following her and retweeted it. And then a lot of his followers were started following her. So all of a sudden I had 10,000 followers.

So anyway, we finished interviewing her. I really liked her. And I'm like, what's the feed? What's the Twitter feed? She told me And I went and I read it and there were, I read the first 10 jokes. Eight of them were a plus jokes. And I said to Dan, I'm like, let's hire her as our assistant. If we need jokes, we, she's really good at joke writing and we're still looking for a last staff writer. And she was our assistant for a day. I'm like, do you have a spec? You've written? Like, I wrote a 30 Rock. So I read it and it was green, but first five pages, five great jokes. So finally Dan and I were like, let's hire her today because in three years we're going to be looking for her to hire us because she was that talented.

Michael Jamin:

Have had three years passed.

Stephen Engel:

She very quickly became very successful and has over a million Twitter, Twitter dollars.

Michael Jamin:

But is she working as a writer?

Stephen Engel:

She ended up working on Silicon Valley and Oh wow. Parks and Rec and she ended up working on The Simpsons. And so

Michael Jamin:

You were right. The good place.

Stephen Engel:

Yeah. I mean she was really talent. It was undeniable. So I always tell writers, write Jo, if you could write jokes, you'll work to, you're 90. To the extent shows like to have jokes anymore, which a lot of them don't. Right. I always think about that joke. I dunno if you remember this from the Emmys, maybe like four or five, six years ago, Michael Chay and Colin Jost hosted the Emmys. And I always tell this to my class, Colin, Joe says that the opening monologue, he says, tonight we give awards for the best comedies and dramas in television. And for those of you who don't know, a drama, a comedy is a drama that's 30 minutes long.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah.

Stephen Engel:

There's just so many shows now that are not really that funny

Michael Jamin:

That I ain't going for it. What is this club, what's the class called that you're teaching at U ucla?

Stephen Engel:

It's in the professional program through the school of the Film School write writing a half hour pilot.

Michael Jamin:

So a graduate. So they have a grad, graduate

Stephen Engel:

Program. It's not a M ffa and it's not undergrad. It's like a professional program where you can apply, it's a one year program. You take three quarters, 10 weeks each, and you go from basically Idea to finish script in 10 weeks.

Michael Jamin:

And it's at, you say, so it's not used to extension, it's something else.

Stephen Engel:

No, it's not Extension. It's a, it's through the School of Television, film and theater. Wow. That's theater, film and television, I guess it's called. Yeah. So eight to 10 people. And you're kind of, wow. I kind of act as the showrunner, but I want to hear, get everybody's input. Everyone gets input from each other about their ideas. So it's like a writing class group.

Michael Jamin:

They'd be lucky to get in your class. For sure.

Stephen Engel:

Yeah. I tend to give them a lot of, I think, very thorough notes and hopefully it's helpful. And I don't mince words. I mean, I'm gentle with it. I'll always, I'll do my notes and then I'll go back and soften them. I'll be like, instead of this, I don't think this is working. I would say, I wonder if some readers might think this is a bit confusing as opposed to, this is confusing. Or I remember confusing.

Michael Jamin:

I remember. And just shouldn't be turning to you. I can't remember. It was a script. Levi 10 was running the show, and I think we had a problem with the scene. And I seem to remember you helping us. You pulled you aside, Hey, how do you think this scene should work? Because we were lost and you were very helpful.

Stephen Engel:

Well, I had at that point already run Dreman for several years and and had some showing experience. And look, Ste, Steve was a great showrunner and one of his, he's smart enough and secure enough to know that I will benefit by having other experienced showrunners on working with me and other very experienced writers. Cause I may not have the answer all the time.

Michael Jamin:

Oh, I also remember thinking that I don't want to bother the boss. I'll bother someone who's not the boss.

Stephen Engel:

Yeah. But again, was you were your first job and you're want to make sure you don't do any. I've worked on shows where staff writers are told, don't even say a word.

Michael Jamin:

Oh, really?

Stephen Engel:

More or less. It's just you're there to generate jokes on your own and just keep quiet. Which is to me is if I can get a joke from a pa, I'll take it. I don't care where the joke comes from. If it helps make the script better. If a PA comes in and delivers a pizza and goes, what'd be funny? I'm like, that is funny. Right. I'll put that in.

Michael Jamin:

Right. Yeah. You whatever gets you home earlier. Yeah. Yeah.

Stephen Engel:

And makes the script better. And hopefully makes the script better. It's all going to make you look better as a showrunner.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, it was. And you're right, dude. I mean that show that it was really top heavy, just shoot me. It's top heavy. And it was, that's probably what was so intimidating to me was everyone was so funny. And I remember even turning to Marsh after several weeks. It was like, Marsha, I, I'm laughing too much. I'm not pitching enough. I'm enjoying myself too much. Right. What do I do? Because I'm not here to observe.

Stephen Engel:

I can see how it would be intimidating. I was lucky enough that on my first job it was Kauffman and Crane were the showrunners. Greenstone and Strass were like the producer, co-producer, exec producer, kind of supervising producer level. And then we had three staff writers who were all pretty new. So it felt democratic. But you come into a Topheavy show and you're, you were the only staff writers. Yeah. There.

Michael Jamin:

And there's Tom Martin. There's Tom Martin. Oh,

Stephen Engel:

Tom. Right. Tom, Tom Martin. And I know that he was probably a little intimidated at first too. Cause everyone seems to know and what to do and it's like, I don't even understand what we're trying to,

Michael Jamin:

I don't even understand what we're trying to

Stephen Engel:

Do here. Yeah. So it's complicated. But you guys were funny and you guys figured it out. And you stayed on the show for how many seasons?

Michael Jamin:

We were there four seasons. Okay.

Stephen Engel:

Yeah. So, you know, grew up on this show.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. And in many ways

Stephen Engel:

You get more experienced and confident and then you rise up in the ranks. And

Michael Jamin:

That is the, that's kind of the school that we came out of it. It's like you learn how to write a show from basically the first person who you work under who runs a show. Hopefully you get their,

Stephen Engel:

I hate, hate to use this metaphor, but it's a little bit like abused children become abusive parents if you grow up, your first show is a show with a dysfunctional environment. Always just how you learn to run a show. Hopefully I'm never going to do that. But I grew, my first showrunners were Kauffman and Crane, and they could not have been a better showrunners to model your career after, in terms of being kind and smart and funny. And it was ideal. My dog was insisting that I'd do something. I don't know what, feed her or whatever. Can you see her back in the door? I saw

Michael Jamin:

She, oh yeah, I do actually. She, she's staring at you. She's giving you the occhio evil, evil

Stephen Engel:

Line. She's thing. So I was fortunate enough to learn from really smart, good, kind, supportive people. And I hope I became all of those things as a result. I mean, I think people are wired. Look, you're, you're a good person. You're going to be a good person as a showrunner. If you're a broken person, you're going to be a broken person as a showrunner. Right. No matter who you're training, who gave you training.

Michael Jamin:

For

Stephen Engel:

Sure. And we all know that A lot of writers are not necessarily the most intact.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. Right. I mean, you don't go into comedy writing because Well, you're necessarily, if you're well adjusted, but,

Stephen Engel:

Well, some people do, but a lot of people don't. Yes.

Michael Jamin:

Stephen Engel, I want to thank you for taking your time out your day. Thank you for

Stephen Engel:

Being such a good interviewer and

Michael Jamin:

This is helpful for me.

Stephen Engel:

It's always a

Michael Jamin:

Pleasure. It's 20 years ago,

Stephen Engel:

It's always a pleasure to see you and talk to you.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah.

Stephen Engel:

And it was fun.

Michael Jamin:

It was great. Don't go anywhere. All right. Alright everyone, thank you so much. Another great episode. For more information, go to michael chapman.com. You want to get on my newsletter, get him my son up, my webinar and all that. And that's it. Until next week, keep writing. Thank you.

Phil Hudson:

This has been an episode where Screenwriters Need To Hear This with Michael Jamin and Phil Hudson. If you'd like to support this podcast, please consider subscribing, leaving a review, and sharing this podcast with someone who needs to hear today's subject. For free daily screenwriting tips, follow Michael on Instagram, Facebook, and TikTok @MichaelJaminWriter. You can follow me on Instagram, Facebook, and TikTok @PhilAHudson. This episode was produced by Phil Hudson and edited by Dallas Crane. Until next time, keep writing.

This week we tackle questions from our March Webinar titled The Secret To Getting Ahead in Hollywood. We host a webinar every month. Register for the next one using the link below.

Free Writing Webinar - https://michaeljamin.com/op/webinar-registration/

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Join My Watchlist - https://michaeljamin.com/watchlist

Michael Jamin:

You're listening to Screenwriters Need to hear this with Michael Jamin.

Everyone, it's Michael Jamin. Welcome back for another episode of Screenwriters. Need to hear this. We're doing a q and a, another q and a as if you're new here. So at once a month, Phil and I, we do a free webinar on screenwriting. And sometimes we talk about writing, sometimes we talk about breaking into the business. Sometimes we talk about at Get industry types to attend your event that's coming up. Each one, each month is a different topic and it's about an hour long and it's free. But we got a lot of questions at the end and it can only have time to answer so many of them. So here are the ones that I missed. So thank you all for coming, for listening. Here are the ones that I couldn't get to.

Phil Hudson:

Yeah. And this is for the March webinar. And we also have the April webinar questions to get through too, because oh, we

Michael Jamin:

Got some many questions. A lot,

Phil Hudson:

Lot of questions.

Michael Jamin:

The March webinar, what was on, I'm so sorry Phil, I'm putting you on the spot. What was that one for?

Phil Hudson:

Let's, let's see if I can pull it off. One second.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah,

Phil Hudson:

Pressures on. Ding to, I've got it up. The secret to getting ahead in Hollywood. Four things you must know.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, the secret to getting ahead. Okay, so here are the questions. Yeah,

Phil Hudson:

So hit me, Phil. Now to be clear, there are several, there were a lot of questions here. I mean, there were like 70 questions we didn't get to. That webinar is an hour long and it's dedicated to 15 to 20 minutes of q and a. And you actually, you try to push through a lot of the stuff to get to the questions. And despite that, we still have so many. So I have removed duplicate questions. So in our last episode, doing the February q and a, you answered a bunch of these and there are other questions we've already talked about on the podcast or you have talked about on your social media. So if your question is not here and we don't answer it, apologize. But that's already been discussed pretty in depth. So lots of great content just go to at Michael Jamin writer to learn more or look at past podcast episodes related to your topic because we've covered a lot of this already

Michael Jamin:

@MichaelJaminWriter on Instagram and TikTok and Facebook.

Phil Hudson:

So yeah, @MichaelJaminWriter, right?

Michael Jamin:

Just making sure. No, I'm sorry. I dunno,

Phil Hudson:

My own name. Mi... Michael Jamin, some other guy.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah.

Phil Hudson:

So cool. Well, question number one, Robert Cowie asked, is there such a thing as a perfect script or is it in the eye of the beholder?

Michael Jamin:

No. Such a thing. As a matter. As a matter of fact. And it's a great question. I remember working on, just Shoot Me, this was my first staff writing job. And some of the older, more experienced writers, great writers in that show, people Hall I'll interview on the podcast. They turned a script. And I remember reading it thinking, oh my God, this is hilarious. This is gold. And then they would get notes from the Showrun. I'm like, w w what? Why are they getting, this is perfect. And you can always improve. You could always make it be better or slightly different. The Showrun runner was looking for something a little different, but there's no such thing, no writer ever turned a script. You could be Shakespeare, you would get notes. It's just how it works. So there's no such thing as a perfect script.

Phil Hudson:

Writing is rewriting, and eventually you reach to a point where you stop because you could just spend forever trying to make it better. And then five years from now, you're going to look back and think, that was horrible. I could have done better. Yeah, because you're progressing in the art, right? Yeah. You use Picasso as an example all the time about mastery. And in the course, I think he even show examples of his work as a teenager moving into his twenties. And then he becomes so good at the rules, he can bend the rules and become something truly unique. And that's the path of mastery in any craft.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. Yeah. Cool. And that's actually part of the fear as I was talking to my wife Cynthia this morning, cause I'm putting, getting ready to put my book out, a paper orchestra, and I'm like, once I put it out, I can't stop tinkering with it. I'm done. I no can no longer tinker with it. I'm done. And that's going to be a little difficult for me because I can't, there, there's always things that I wish I could do different when I look it over and it's like, no, you got to let it go. And now she's like, well, that's what your second book is for, is to do things differently in your second book, but you got to let it go at some point.

Phil Hudson:

Yeah, excellent point. Jenin, Macumba music. And I apologize if I mispronounce that I have a pitch meeting with a big league company. I am terrified. Any tips on how a pitch meeting should go?

Michael Jamin:

You should pitch them what you think it should be and then you should be open to hearing their ideas and incorporate their ideas and make them feel ownership in it. Because if you say, no, no, no, this is my way, the highway, well, they're not going to have any pride of ownership, but if they bounce an idea off you and they go, oh, and that excites you. Oh, that's interesting. Yes. Even if it is your idea, but they're just rephrasing it. I love that. Make them feel like it's their idea. Make 'em feel like you're being heard, that they're listening, that you're listening to them. That way they will fight more because it's their own, now it's theirs. So they'll fight for it. So 'em in them in

Phil Hudson:

It's a collaborative medium, despite the fact that you're the writer. It's many hands, lots of people, lots of iterations of it. What gets submitted and is not what you shoot. What you shoot is not necessarily what's going to air because there's editing, there's lots of iterations of this.

Michael Jamin:

And I tend to fall in love with whatever draft I'm working on, and then we'll get a note that's terrible and I'll do the note and I'm like, oh, this is pretty good because I fall in love with whatever. And then my partner will say, don't you remember how much you hated this note.

Phil Hudson:

That's so funny. One note, it's a bit of a tangent, but I think is an important note here. You've said in the past what you do when you're doing a new version is every day when you sit down, you save a new draft of your script so that you can always go back and you keep that. That's not directly related to pitching, but I think it does speak to keeping your versions so that you can see how it changes and grow and go back.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, that's a good point. I'm going to talk more about that. But the truth is, I save him to make myself feel better, but I almost never look at 'em. I almost never go back to them. But

Phil Hudson:

Glad when

Michael Jamin:

You have to allows me the, but it gives me the freedom to tear it apart. I go, I still have it, I have it. If I want it now, I can just tear it apart and feel good. But if I didn't save it, I probably wouldn't want to let go of it.

Phil Hudson:

Yeah, it's playing. That's what your wife taught me in acting classes we're we're going to play. Yeah, right. Cool. Bobby Kin, excuse me, Bobby Kenon, any thoughts for making the transition from playwriting to screenwriting or television writing?

Michael Jamin:

Well, it's good for you that you're doing that story. Story. What difference does it make whether you put it on a stage or a screen, a large screen or a small screen, who cares? It's funny, when I'm writing for television, do you think I care if someone watches it on 40 inch television or on their six inch iPhone? Do I care? It doesn't change the way I'm writing it? Maybe they'll be able to see less, but I don't really, that's not my business. That's their problem. So it doesn't really change anything. It tips from becoming a playwright. Well, obviously now you have more sets to play with because on in a play, you literally can't have too many sets because where are you going to put 'em all? How are you going to get stage them? And so plays tend to be a little more talky, whereas a TV show or a movie tends to be like, well, let's wa what are we watching now? Oh, the characters on a rollercoaster. Okay, you can't do that in a play. But is story structure a story structure? And if that's something you want to learn, for sure, we got a course, you've go to michaeljamin.com/course, and we teach story and story structure. So

Phil Hudson:

Yeah, there's another question in here and it's kind of buried, so I apologize. I'm not going to find the person who said it, but they asked the question. Oh, here it is. Mark Mohawk. And I think that's a fake name. It's not really. Yeah, mark Mahaw. I was going to say, yeah, I, I'm worried I'm saying something.

Michael Jamin:

I was going to make a joke about his name.

Phil Hudson:

Can you talk about

Michael Jamin:

Mark, what is it

Phil Hudson:

In? I think this relates to that, talking about different sets and things. When you talk more about shooting things on your own, when shooting diy, would you prioritize dialogue for budget purposes?

Michael Jamin:

Well, I prioritize story. The priority is you could shoot everything on your phone. The only thing you have to have is good sound. And I would, that's critical. If the sounds bad, I don't care. You don't want to, if I'm hearing wind noises more than the dialogue, if I'm hearing the background actor of more than the foreground actor, that's a problem. So sound is really important. More so than camera, work lens with camera, you're going to shoot it on, but prioritize dialogue. You should prioritize tell telling a good story. So if you could tell a story with no dialogue, that's fine too.

Phil Hudson:

Yeah. Aaron Sorkin, lots and lots of dialogue. Yeah. Lots of other writers. No dialogue. I think the movie Drive, have you seen Drive?

Michael Jamin:

Loved it. Very fluff. Yeah.

Phil Hudson:

Blew my, blew my mind. Dude. Barely talks. Barely talks. Yeah. But it's so emotive and so expressive and it's just so masterfully shot. Yeah. Yeah. So you're saying if it calls for it or if that's your style, and maybe that will develop your style. I think in film school, it was an indie film school that I went to, and they focused a lot on that. It's like what assets and resources do you have? And utilize the tools that you have to make what you can. Yeah. That might be a park bench. And you've talked about that as an example in the webinar you did.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah.

Phil Hudson:

Park bench. Two people talking could be boring. Put it in the living room. It's one of the greatest shows ever made.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. All in the family, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yep.

Phil Hudson:

Cool. All right. This is another one of those dub boy, d a u boy. B o y I. Sorry, I slotted that. All right. Your recommendation for new writers to be good or contribute in a writer's room?

Michael Jamin:

What's my recommendation? Yeah,

Well just know that you're not getting paid what the more senior writers are getting paid. And so, God, I was just listening to, who was I listening to? Saying the same exact thing, which is relax. I mean, you're a new writer. Just relax, soak up, learn, be a sponge. Don't feel like you have to argue, don't feel like you have to contribute too much. Y you're Jo, you're going to be white knuckling it the first several months, if not seasoned, because you're going to be in way over your head. So just absorb, don't feel compelled that you have to contribute as much as everybody else. My feeling, because just talking to hear yourself talk is not helpful to the rest of us.

Phil Hudson:

I was talking to a friend who is a staff writer on his first season, and he said, I asked him how it went and asked him if he was nervous to talk. And he's like, what I found interesting is I knew better than to talk very much only when I had a good idea, but I didn't feel that the people just above him, the story editor and senior story editor were talking enough, they were not contributing enough. Oh,

Michael Jamin:

They were not.

Phil Hudson:

And feedback from the showrunner, he said, was that the showrunner agreed that those people were not carrying their weight. So at what point, what's the transition point? At what point do you feel like you should be contributing more?

Michael Jamin:

And it's really hard to know. I mean, that's why it's so important. And

Phil Hudson:

Maybe we should clarify for people too. What are those levels, right? Because it's story, it's staff writer, story editor, senior story editor,

Michael Jamin:

No, executive story

Phil Hudson:

Editor. Executive story editor. And then it's was it

Michael Jamin:

Script

Phil Hudson:

Co-producer,

Michael Jamin:

Producer,

Phil Hudson:

Producer. Go ahead.

Michael Jamin:

Super. Then supervising producer, then co-executive producer, then executive producer. And so the higher up you go, the more you're expected to contribute. And that's why in the beginning, I didn't even know what a good pitch was. I didn't know what a good pitch was versus a bad pitch. The more you learn, the more, yeah. I mean, that's one, when we talk about it in the course, I think one of the valuable parts of the course is hopefully when you go through it, is you get a sense of what a good idea is and what's what story structure is. So you should know you damn well should be known at the end of the course. What constitutes a good pitch? What does this be? What should that beat be? What is a story? How does a story unfold? How does the scene unfold? This is all important stuff that, so you're not just throwing out ideas. I think a lot of problems, Hey, what if, well, we're not pitching, we're not playing. What if right now we're actually trying to break the story. And we're not free reigning right now. Now we're further down the road.

Phil Hudson:

Just a note, note on the value of that segment about knowing what a good idea is this season in the Tacoma FD writer's room, when I was sitting there, I'm trying not to talk other than I'm answering a question or providing research, because that's kind of my role. And I remember you were all trying to figure out what are we going to do for the cold open of this episode? And you were thinking of an interesting reason to get our firefighters there. And for whatever reason, this story popped in with my friend had a roommate who jabbed an EpiPen into his leg backwards, and it hooked into his thumb, but he was super drunk, and so firefighters had to come. And I just pitched that and I just remember everyone be like, that'll work. And they wrote it up and that was the working cold open. And it changed and it didn't work because they did something very similar later. But I was like, oh, perfect. That was a good idea. Proper time to bring it up. And it worked like that, right? Then that came from your course.

Michael Jamin:

Oh good. Yeah.

Phil Hudson:

Yeah. Cause I wouldn't have pitched anything. First of all, you say don't talk if you're an assistant, but secondly, I did. I knew it was a good pitch because of your course, and that's why I opened my mouth and it was on the board for a week. So yeah. Yeah. Made me feel warm and fuzzy.

Michael Jamin:

Absolutely.

Phil Hudson:

Awesome. Lorenzo, can you name a couple of screenwriters you respect and you think could be a good source of technical mastery?

Michael Jamin:

Well, John Hughes, I, I don't know him personally or, I dunno if this person talking about people I know personally. I mean, I love John Hughes. The Breakfast Club is a play, is a stage play, but it was a movie, but it feels like a stage play. So it very talky and wonderful and so authentic. And it really felt, he remembered what it was like to be a teenager.

Phil Hudson:

All of his movies capture that time. I mean, it's a John Hughes movie. You know what it is when it's coming up because

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. So is there anybody better than him? That's my opinion. No, but that's the style of writing that I like. So Sure.

Phil Hudson:

Michael Scott, and I think, I don't know if you want to bring this up, but occasionally when you do the webinar, you will give away a free access, a free seat in your course. Lifetime access.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, that's a good reason to show up.

Phil Hudson:

Michael Scott won. Michael Scott was our winner. Oh,

Michael Jamin:

That's right. He won. Yeah.

Phil Hudson:

Yeah. So Michael Scott said, do you recommend attending PGA West Producers Guild of America events and networking with showrunners? I think he might mean wga a West.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. I've never been to a PGA Producer's Guild event. I don't even know what kind of events they have. And show runner go

Phil Hudson:

The West, I think means he, he's means wga a, but Michael, I'm sorry. I've forgot that wrong.

Michael Jamin:

Well, I would, I'd go, but I wouldn't go for a net. I wouldn't go to network. Net networking is gross. People smell it a mile away. I say network with people at your own level, which might be which, whatever level you're at, that's who you network with. Don't network. You don't have to kiss the ass of the show of some showrunner. He or she will smell it a mile away network with people at your own because they rise up. They'll rise up as assistants become whatever, agents, managers, writers, that's your friend group. That's your circle.

Phil Hudson:

Yeah. I've talked in the past about the Writer's Guild of America Foundation who puts on these events. They have this thing called the Golden Ticket. And when I first moved here, that was what I did. I paid the money for that, and it got me a front row seat at all of these events. And what that allowed me to do was just have a better learning experience and the opportunity to have conversations with these people if I wanted to. And I remember I went to the WGA in Hollywood, and I was riding the elevator up, and I wrote up with John August, and I had met him at Sundance where I was doing translation work. So I was like, oh, hey John. And he was like, oh, hey. And I was like, yeah, I was the Sundance translator. He was like, oh yeah, that's right.

And he was like, you enjoying la? And I was like, yeah. And that's all I said to him. And it's cause it just wasn't the right time to attack the guy who's had to go talk on stage and read the room. I understood dynamics, just acknowledge I knew who he was and we'd met before. That was it. That was the most networking I did at any of those events outside of the other people who had paid for the golden ticket and because we were talking to each other every week and sitting there and going to the festival that they put on, I met a lot more people through doing those things.

Michael Jamin:

That's your net. That's networking. It's not gross. It's not, Hey, what can you do for me? Hey, let's just chat. Yeah. We have something in common.

Phil Hudson:

Cool. Danny Casone, I'm probably messing that up. How do you develop better writing skills and how do you find someone to bounce your ideas off of?

Michael Jamin:

Well, the one thing we have in our course is a private Facebook group, and those people trade scripts, and they've all been through my course, so they have some degree of knowledge. So that's a great way to do it. But what was the first part? How do you

Phil Hudson:

Develop better writing skills?

Michael Jamin:

Oh yeah. You take classes. That's how you do it. You learn. I How are you expected to do it? How are you expected to do it on your own when you don't know? Yeah. Read. That's why you take a course.

Phil Hudson:

Read, read and apply. That's the other thing is you can get too caught up in learning how to do something. And that is a form of procrastination because you're not sitting down to execute. You're going to learn a lot more by executing and reading it and realizing how bad it is than you would learning and learning and learning and not sitting down and just doing the work. So yeah, don't procrastinate, just do the work and you'll learn a ton. But as far as ideas, like you said, it's the private Facebook group or the people you're around, all those things. Someone else asked in here, although I'm not a member of the course, can I sign up for the private Facebook group as long as I'm carrying my weight and contributing,

Michael Jamin:

No, sorry. Sorry.

Phil Hudson:

You got a lot of those requests.

Michael Jamin:

Sorry. Because that's just the role to get in. It's like the people who put skin in the game, they've been to the lessons, they're contributing with their knowledge with what they've learned. It's not social hour. It's like it's class. So it's like saying, Hey, can I just go to med school and contribute? Well, no, you're either in or you're out. Yeah.

Phil Hudson:

The And the quality of every interaction in that group is better because everyone is coming at it from the same foundation.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. Yeah. I do think they're very serious. I do think the quality of the conversations in that private Facebook group, cause I see it, the comments and I believe comments, it's very high. It's much higher than, say, way higher than Reddit, way higher than some public Facebook group. It's way, hi. It's just higher.

Phil Hudson:

One example I'll give on that, A friend of mine was like, you got to join this Facebook group. It's awesome. And I joined and I was just trying to introduce myself. I was like, Hey, I'm Phil. I'm new the group. I just wanted to share this thing that I heard about Steve Spielberg said that the opening shot of every film is a metaphor for the whole thing. And I got berated by 50 people saying, I thought everybody knew that this is, what do you mean you're just learning? And I was like, you guys are dicks. I'm out. And I just left the group because I was like, you are not my people and I do not want to be in here with you.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, there's a people, yeah, exactly. People on social media could be dicks and I don't see any of that going on. Maybe because I think they know. I'll kick 'em out if I see that

Phil Hudson:

You will. Another on that note. So one thing you and I have to do for the course is there's this whole thing that you did with me, which is coming up with an idea, breaking an idea, writing the idea, and getting a pilot. And it was a pilot episode of Tacoma fd, and we still have to go over that final script because someone was like, Uhland. And the group was like, Hey, Phil, did you guys ever, did you finish it? I was like, I did. I need a, it's printed. I just need to send it to Michael so he can give me notes.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, we'll do that'll talk.

Phil Hudson:

And he was like, well, I was just revisiting and I always thought this be this moment at the end of your act too. And I was like, dang, that's better than what I wrote. And then he was like, then maybe this is how the Eddie comes back. I was like, dang it, that's better than what I wrote. Right? This is just, they're thinking about story at the same way. And I was like, I learned some valuable things off of those two comments, and he hasn't even read the script.

Michael Jamin:

So yeah, it's a good group.

Phil Hudson:

Yeah. All right. Manola films, can you please talk about the show Bible? What is a show bible and do we need 'em, I think is the ultimate question.

Michael Jamin:

No, I don't think you need, no. The show Bible, when we work on a show is the writer assistant or the S script supervisor will assemble the episodes that we've shot and put it together and for whatever reason, whoever needs to look at it. I'm like, who wants to look at this? When you're pitching, you think you need a show, Bob, because you want to sell a show, but you're not going to sell a show. So what are you worried about? Your writing sample? Your script is a writing sample. It's a calling card. It's for you to get more work. Why put the, you're not going to, what are you going to do with the Bible not pitching anybody? And if you do pitch someone and they want a Bible, fine, they'll put together a Bible. But that's not what the point of your main goal right now is to have a killer script as a writing sample. That's hard enough. Forget about a Bible.

Phil Hudson:

There's another writer who's pretty active on TikTok and social media, and he was talking about a Bible, and I asked him, I was like, what do you think the value of the show Bible is? Because I've heard I shouldn't need one. He's like, well, you got to know where your story's going. So when you pitch, you can answer the question, what's where are we going? What's going on? So understand that much about it if you're in the opportunity to sell it. But he wasn't advocating for what I think the pros and the experts are referring to as a bi bible, which is this character and his backstory and his arc through seasons one through 10. And this is the, it's not the detailed, it's just know where you're going with your story. There are also some really interesting Bibles story, Bibles that are available online that I won't link to because they're not our ip. They're not something that you want to link out to, but you can search for 'em and find them. That again, is literally what you said. It's something that an assistant does for the show.

Michael Jamin:

So

Phil Hudson:

Monica, and by the way, it's to help the writers, the new staff writers. We had new writers on Tacoma FD this season, and they were asking me for that, and we didn't have a Bible, and so I had to send 'em all the scripts and they had to read through all the scripts instead of just reading a bible to understand what stories have been told, who the characters

Michael Jamin:

Are. They should be reading the scripts anyway. They should. That's the thing. There you

Phil Hudson:

Go. Yeah. Okay. I'm putting that on you guys. If you're listening. Sorry, you didn't complain when I sent you the script. Yeah. Monica B, what about if you work in a different area of Hollywood, for example, does that experience help when you are ready to pitch a script?

Michael Jamin:

No. No, it doesn't. I mean, it's great that you're working in Hollywood. Maybe you can make some connections, but if you are working in post and you don't want to, if you want to be a screenwriter, just know not where we, that's not the bullpen. That's not where we're pulling talent from. You're close, the closer you can get physically to the job you want, the better. So you're getting close, but eventually you want to get in on the production side, you want to get closer to the writers. It's good that you have that job, but it's not a transferrable skill.

Phil Hudson:

I've turned down those jobs because it's not the direction I want to go. Okay.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah.

Phil Hudson:

So Flyboy 2 43 is starting out writing as a hobby part of the way to become a professional in your spare time if you're at the bottom.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, you should be writing. Yeah. If you enjoy writing, you for sure if you like writing, but if you don't like writing, if you're not writing as a hobby, then what makes you think you're going to like it as a profession?

Phil Hudson:

Philip Mullings Jr. Can you use scripts that you've written on a show as a staff writer in your portfolio?

Michael Jamin:

Well, I don't have a portfolio. None of us have a portfolio. We just have writing. We have scripts that we've written. So if you were credit

Phil Hudson:

Staff, right, you have a credit that your agent's putting out there.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. But if you were, say you were on a let's staff writer on floppy in the Boys on the Disney Channel, and you wrote a script, fantastic. But if you're trying to get work on some other show, a sophisticated adult show you're floppy in the boys script that was produced is not going to be of any service. So you know, have to have a writing sample that will match the tone of the show you want to work on.

Phil Hudson:

Yeah. Got it. Alex Zen Draw comics. What do screenwriters do when they're having health problems that may hinder their writing pursuits?

Michael Jamin:

Well, what are you going to do? I mean, if your health comes first, what are you going to do? You have to be healthy enough to write and healthy enough to work. So that's a problem. What do you do? You know, focus on getting healthy.

Phil Hudson:

I wanted to include this one because it's an area we haven't talked much about, which may be like the W G A health benefits and some of those benefits that you get from being in the guild. I can tell you, as someone who previously held an insurance license, disability insurance is probably a good idea for most people, which is if you are unable to perform your work for which you get paid, you can get a percentage of that pay. Now, that is not an endorsement for anybody or anything, but it is something to consider for every adult. If I get a hand, if I get handicapped or something, how am I going to pay my bills?

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. It's just very hard to prove disability if you're a writer, because as long as you have a functioning brain, you can still write. So disability's easier if you're working on a construction because you can't, how are you going to climb a ladder? But if you're hard to prove if you're a writer,

Phil Hudson:

Interesting. As far as the WGA benefits go for the health plan, I mean, what does that look like? And I think, correct me if I'm wrong, but you have to earn a certain number of points or pay a certain amount into the Guild Fund every year to maintain your benefits.

Michael Jamin:

The health benefits being in the Writer's Guild gets you health insurance as well as pension, but you have to earn a certain number of points every year to continue qualifying for them.

Phil Hudson:

And if you don't qualify, is that like a Cobra situation where you're paying out of pocket for those benefits or you get you

Michael Jamin:

Accrue points so you have a certain, the more you work, the more points, and then if you're unemployed for a year, usually you just draw this point bank that you have and that'll deplete itself after pretty quickly depending on how long you've, your history is. And then after that, you can have a COBRA situation where you get to pay out of pocket,

Phil Hudson:

Which is expensive. Yeah, but prioritize your health. That's something I'm learning the older I get, especially having children now and people who rely on me is your health is the number one thing, because without it, you cannot provide for your family. You cannot do anything. So Right. Make time for that. All right, Peter Cat, this feels very Russian. Peter, p i e t e r k e t e l a a R. I apologize to everybody for my poor phonetics. What kind of stock do you put in a blacklist score of eight for a pilot in hand already?

Michael Jamin:

I have no idea what an eight means or what, I barely know what the blacklist is, so I'm going to say, what kind of stock do I put in that zero considering I don't even know the question.

Phil Hudson:

I knew that was going to be the answer to the question, which is why I included it. Because for those of us who are what we call pre WGA people trying to break into the industry, we put a lot of stock in the blacklist and what that means. But I had a volunteer at Sundance that I met years ago. She had a script that one was on the blacklist, and she had meetings about it, and then she rewrote the whole thing and changed it all up and spent two years focusing on that script instead of walking away from it and working on another good piece of material. And a lot of my conversations were pitching things to her because of your course that ultimately she was like, well, that was in my first draft. That was in my first draft. And she's just getting lots of bad feedback. So the points don't matter. The listing can get you meetings with people, but ultimately you still got to be able to put in the work, and you have to have multiple samples

Michael Jamin:

Because multiple samples

Phil Hudson:

That might get you into a room, but what else do you got?

Michael Jamin:

You tell me you got an eight or whatever, or 108 on blacklist. I don't really care. Let me just read the script. I'll decide whether I think the script is good or not. I get to decide that and whoever, whoever's reading it gets to decide. So yeah, it's not like, oh, this person's got an eight right this way. No, I don't care whether you got a zero. If it's I read it, I decide.

Phil Hudson:

Yeah. Another question from Peter, this was from the webinar where you talked about networking should be at your level or beneath you, right? Because yeah, and we talked

Michael Jamin:

About this. That's why I feel this episode. It's my opinion.

Phil Hudson:

What should my beneath me look like?

Michael Jamin:

Oh, well, I mean, it's anyone, it's, I mean, I don't know. This

Phil Hudson:

Might be two, taking two as too. So lemme just throw the other one out. What is something that is beneath me? What is something I shouldn't spend my time doing?

Michael Jamin:

Well, right. Nothing's beneath you. So if your neighbor is saying, Hey, I want to shoot a movie in my backyard, sure, I'll do it. I'll help if I'm just above that level. Yeah, not, it's like, because anybody who's showing any kind of ambition, who's just trying a student at a film school, whatever, get involved in them. If they're going to get out of film school, if they want to stay in the industry, they'll stay in the industry and then they'll work their way up and then you'll be right there with them because you're helping them under their projects. And maybe they'll help you on theirs. That's your class, that's your graduating class. So is anything beneath you? No. As long as you have the time to do it, get involved these, because no one, it's so interesting when I talk about stories from my past, I think it's easy to, and I talk about, oh, this person I know this famous person, this or this successful person, that successful person at the time, they weren't successful. They were just people, and most of them didn't mount to anything in the industry, but some of them did. And that's, some of them did. That's it. So you know, get involved in everybody.

Phil Hudson:

But it goes back to the thing that's a common theme on our podcast, which is serve everybody. Give as much as you can without any expectation of receiving. Because if you're doing it because you, you're betting all your cards on that horse, everything you got on that horse to win the race, and then they fall out. Well, yeah, there's some manipulation and some self-serving that goes there, and intention has a smell, so we, you're going to stink. It's not good.

Michael Jamin:

I worked in a show called, I was a PA on a show called Hearts of Fire, which was Marky Post in John John Ritter, and also Billy Bob Thornton was on it actually. And it was a Linda Bloodworth Thomason show. And so there was two young staff writers in that show, which I kind of hung out with them a bit because they were closer to my age and they were, because they were staff writers. Maybe they're a story editor, I don't remember, but they're low. They were low and very low in the totem pole. And I hung out with them because they were closer to my level and they were nice to me. Those guys turned out to be David Cohan and Max Muk, who created Will and Grace years later. I didn't know that at the time. They were just a couple guys my age, a couple years older, and that who I didn't have to kiss anybody's butt, they, I was at pa, so they were definitely above my level, but still they weren't setting in the world on fire at the

Phil Hudson:

Time. Yeah.

Michael Jamin:

Hey, it's Michael Jamin. If you like my videos and you want me to email them to you for free, join my watch list. Every Friday I send out my top three videos. These are for writers, actors, creative types. You could unsubscribe whenever you want. I'm not going to spam you, and it's absolutely free. Just go to michaeljamin.com/watchlist.

Phil Hudson:

All right. Taylor Cole, I have had a consistent career as a film producer. How can I best transition into television? I'm assuming television writing.

Michael Jamin:

Oh, yeah. With TV writing, how can you be? Basically, you're where everyone else is. My answer to you is the same as everyone else. Write scripts, show them. If you have a movie that did really well, give a hit movie that you should have no trouble. You should, people fi, if you made a movie that no one saw, you're going to have a problem. If you made a hit movie where there a breakout at Sundance, people are going to find you. People are going to find you. And that's how I've been doing the whole webinar. I don't want to say too much because I, I've, I've coming up, I want to talk about examples of this, about people who breakout people and how they broke out. And I'm going to talk more about it. And so sign up for one of my webinars that michaeljamin.com/webinar. But, cause I'm going to talk about this for about an hour, but how can you, my advice to you is the same as everyone else. I hope you're, you're following me everywhere and just soaking it up because it's no different for you.

Phil Hudson:

Yeah, there you go. Shane Gamble. I live in New York City. Do you think it is better to move to LA or should I focus on the network I've currently built here?

Michael Jamin:

Where's Hollywood? And Hollywood is in la? There is some, obviously there's theater, there's probably more theater in New York than it is in LA that interests you. In the end, you're probably going to have to come out to Hollywood. There's not much of a network out there. This is where it is. I'm from New York. I moved out here because this is where Hollywood is, so yeah.

Phil Hudson:

Yep. Now there's writing there too, but if you don't have the network there in the writing space,

Michael Jamin:

Some shows are shot there. But the writing, most of the time the writing's done here. 30 Rock was shot and written in New York, but that's only because Tina Fay didn't want to leave New York. Everybody else does it here.

Phil Hudson:

Yeah.

Michael Jamin:

So you might get a job. Let's say you've got a job in New York writing on 30 Rock. Great. How are you going to make a career? Because that show is done. It's not on the air anymore.

Phil Hudson:

Good point, right? Ariba, how do I work through the problem of getting stuck between my script? Any exercises that I could help work through that I'm currently writing a short film and I find myself stuck midway.

Michael Jamin:

You don't understand story structure. You didn't break your story cro correctly, which is why you're stuck, which is why you don't know what your characters are going to do. You don't know what to do it. So I don't have any quick fixes for you. I could teach you story structure. I could teach you, which is what the course is. No, I don't have a tip. I teach, I teach you how to become a writer. There's no tips. It's not a tip situation.

Phil Hudson:

And the course is currently closed. Maybe it's not. When this comes up, probably will be. But the course is currently closed and we open it up once a month at this point for people who want to join. So yeah, best way to know about when is to sign up for the webinars because there's some specials in the webinar and you have a chance to win the course. But also, typically I can not going to promise that every time. I don't want to speak for you, Michael, but yeah, that is typically the best way to find out when the course is going to reopen.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. Yeah. But yes, unfortunately I don't have any tips. I don't have any exercises. I, I'm going to teach you how to become a writer. I, I'm going to teach you how to write basically if you want, want to take the course.

Phil Hudson:

One of our really early episodes of the podcast talked about writer's block and about how, sorry, you're a professional and you talked about that recently on another webinar as well. So that's some place to look for some advice on this as well, is work through it, make it happen. But you got to learn the story structure.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah.

Phil Hudson:

Cool. K M C, if I'm writing an entire series, are the accumulation of episodes enough or should I spread out to other writings too?

Michael Jamin:

Why we write an entire series? That's first question.

Phil Hudson:

That is advice.

Michael Jamin:

You got to write one script

Phil Hudson:

That is advice people get, Michael, is you should write an entire series.

Michael Jamin:

No, write one script. Write one episode that just killer. Write one. Just one. A lot of times, and we were talking, we talked about this privately where someone wrote an entire series and you read it and you're go, no, you just basically took the contents of your pilot and script and spaced it off on 10 episodes. So you have structure 10 episodes of they No Structures. They have 10 episodes of garbage, of they have 10 episodes of Boring when they should have just made one episode. That was great.

Phil Hudson:

Their intuition for what an entire series is was literally a pilot and everything else was just pipe and unnecessary, confusing, meandering and a lot of, I think one of the early critiques I got in writing, and I've heard many times and felt many times for other people, is a lot of things happening, but no one's doing anything.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, yeah. You know, don't want your writing to be that. Learn. There's studies, study your screenwriting. That's what I'm saying. Yeah. So study what a story is. Oh,

Phil Hudson:

So write a good poem because

Michael Jamin:

If you had known what a story is, if that person had known what a story is, they wouldn't have done that. They wouldn't have wasted all that time.

Phil Hudson:

Well, I gave him the notes and at the end he's like, you, because I'd only read the pilot and I was like, well, this might be this and this is kind of how structure, what your pilot would be. He's like, you just described my full season. I was like, yeah, man. Yeah. Sorry

Michael Jamin:

Dude. Yeah. Sorry. You screwed up. Yeah.

Phil Hudson:

Aaron Brown. What are your favorite examples of screenplays We should read?

Michael Jamin:

Anything you should read. Good. You should read bad. You should read if it's good. You got a stack on screen, please?

Phil Hudson:

Yeah. I've got Ladybird ready, player one, aliens, which is one of the most popular scripts I think people are recommended to read. James Cameron Unforgiven, which is the script that famously sat inside of blanking on his name.

Michael Jamin:

Was it Clint Eastwood?

Phil Hudson:

Clint Eastwood, yeah. Sat, he bought it, put it in his desk, and then waited, I think like 20 years till he was old enough to play the part. And one in Oscar one multiple Oscars. I got Drive, which we talked about recently. This is one of my favorite scripts, Armageddon, which was a big block buster, but just a bunch of scripts that I think were stood out. But I think when Oscar season comes out, the studios release their nominated scripts and you can find 'em publicly. So that's a great place to go to find really good stuff. These are what the industry says are the best scripts right now.

Michael Jamin:

And you can also go to the Writer's Guild in West Hollywood, or actually it's Hollywood

Phil Hudson:

Fairfax. Yeah, li It's in Hollywood. Fairfax. Yeah.

Michael Jamin:

They have a public library. You don't have to be a member, you have to make an an appointment. That's it. And you can read for free a bunch of scripts. Read good ones, read bad ones. If you read a bad one, why don't I like this? And don't say it because it's boring. No. What exactly do you not like about this? If you see a good one, why do you want, what do you like about this script? Why do you want to turn the page? What makes you want to and be specific, not because it's compelling, say it. No, because what about it? It makes you want to turn the page and so you can learn from good or bad.

Phil Hudson:

Yeah. Awesome. We got a few more questions here and then we'll wrap it up. Michael. Yeah. Kaya, Kaya link, again, probably ruining your name. I apologize. How long should these sample scripts be? Wait, how long should a sample sample be?

Michael Jamin:

If you're writing a half hour or an hour long, it should be match, whatever. If you're a drama writer, it's going to be an hour

Phil Hudson:

There. There's a note at the back end of this. It says, feature, should I be writing fe? I'm putting this together fe Should I be writing features every time or should I try TV scripts and all those different things.

Michael Jamin:

I think you should write whatever you want to write, whatever kind of writer you want to be. Personally, I think you'll learn more from being a television writer than you'll. You'll learn more in a year than you would learn in 10 years. Writing features just because of you're learning. You're working alongside other writers who are experienced. It's like, I don't even know why you wouldn't want to be a TV writer first and then move into feature writing if that interests you. But you'll learn so much from working aside alongside professional writers. There's so much to be gained from that. Whereas if you're working in features home alone, good luck. Good luck.

Phil Hudson:

On that note too, the industry is focused on TV right now, not features, and they're really a handful of people writing features. Yeah. It's not to say you can't be that, and there's always the indie feature side of things that you can do to write, but I mean, effectively, this is the same advice you gave on TikTok recently on that clip you did, right? Starting television and then move, expand

Michael Jamin:

Out. I think so, yeah.

Phil Hudson:

And Michael's got a lot of great stuff. We talked about it before, but go check about @MichaelJaminWriter on TikTok and Instagram and Facebook and Twitter and everywhere. Yeah. All right. Gianna Armin trout. How should you study other TV shows to learn story structure, breaking a story, et cetera? What should I be looking for when I'm watching other shows?

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, I, and that's exactly what the course goes into. I mean, the problem is if you want to just watch, go ahead. Watch as much as you can, but what you're not going to know what to look for, you're not going to know. That's the problem. And the same thing with reading. I think it's, you're just probably not going to know. And so I explained in the course, this is what you need to be looking for. These are the moments, these are the act breaks. These are the middle of two, this is the top of three. This is what you need to be looking for. These are the patterns you're going to see in smartly written indie movies, smartly written blockbusters and smartly written foreign films. And they all have a lot in common. And just because you and television as well, and just because you think, well, I don't want to learn story structure because that's formulaic and it's not formulaic. These are just things that a good story has. These are just things they have in common. So

Phil Hudson:

When I was in film school, we were given the task of picking whatever show we were going to write a spec episode of, and then getting a stopwatch out and then timing the scenes. That seems logical, but ultimately what you don't realize is that's what the editing is. That's not necessarily what the script was and what it was written as. Yeah. And yeah, it's not hitting the important points, which is what beat should I be hitting here? How soon do they introduce this information?

Michael Jamin:

And I don't even get that. What are you going to do? You're going to write with your stopwatch next to you, or you're going to write and you go, oh, this is page three. This better happen. What do you mean? How are you supposed to make that work?

Phil Hudson:

That's a lot of screenwriting advice. Michael, this page on page

Michael Jamin:

Three, this happened, I don't

Phil Hudson:

Understand it. By page 10, this needs to happen at the end of a page 25, this moment should happen. And page 45, this should have page 60. This should happen, right? That's traditional, open, most screenwriting books. And I

Michael Jamin:

Don't get that. If you were to write a story, whether it's for television or just a story, and like I say, this is what happens. You need to have at the bottom of act one, if now, if you're bottom act one is on page 15 or 17, does it really matter? Does it really matter? What difference does it make it? You're off by page and a half. What the, who cares? And you could always cut it a little bit. If I don't, I don't know. I just don't approach writing that way. It's like it's a story. Whether you want to put the story on a television or on a stage or write it in a book is, and you get to decide whether you want it to happen on 19 or 17, what difference does it make? Really? What difference does it make?

Phil Hudson:

There you go. Hi, waha Henry are pitch decks, the new calling card. I've been asked to submit pitch decks instead of a script.

Michael Jamin:

Who asking? Who's asking you these? I want to know. I want names. Who's asking?

Phil Hudson:

My experience in Hollywood is that they are the people who are not actually producers.

Michael Jamin:

There is the problem. I want to know if you're a good writer first, if I'm going to get into business with you for anything, whether I'm going to finance your movie, and I don't finance movies, but that or staff you on a show, I want to know, can you write, can you tell a good story? That's the first thing. And if you can't, I don't really care what your pitch deck looks like.

Phil Hudson:

I had done some work for a production company out here, and the producers were like, well, we'd love to read what you have. And I was going to send my script. And they're like, do you have a story bible? This goes back to the earlier question. I said, I don't, do you have an example of what story Bible you want to say? This was years ago before I realized kind of your advice on this. And they sent me, this is one we think is really good, and it was a pitch deck. That was what piqued their interest. And then they read the script and it's like, these people are just trying to make a dime. They're not necessarily trying to put out the best content that they can, and they're intermediaries and they're not the guy with the overall deal at a studio that can just walk in and present what they want to make.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, just

Phil Hudson:

It's a

Michael Jamin:

Different level. I don't understand. It's all smoke and mirrors, I think, whoa, the picture that looks great. Really. Are you trying to get hired as a writer or not? Yeah, I'm not a graphic artist.

Phil Hudson:

Generation X. How can you find someone to read your work who has experience and won't steal your idea?

Michael Jamin:

Well, where do I be doing this?

Phil Hudson:

Two notes on that one. I know, right? That's why I brought it. Yeah, that's why I put it in here.

Michael Jamin:

Where do you begin? Well, your agent will submit it and we'll only submit it to reputable places. Then the question is, well, how do you get an agent? And that'll be talking about that on all my webinars I got, I'll talk about it again at some point. How do you worried about They want to steal your idea? Well, who you're giving it to. Don't give it to some clown at Starbucks. What was the other question?

Phil Hudson:

How do you get someone with experience to read your work? Oh,

Michael Jamin:

How do you get someone to experience? Well, you have to bring more to the table. Why? Why would they, like I have experience, why would I want to read your work? If I'm staffing for a TV show, I will go out to agents and managers. Give me the, I'm not going to, I don't go to people off the street. Yeah. I don't hire people off the street, so don't give me your work. Cause I'm not going to hire you. I'll get it from an agent. Well, how do you get an agent? That's a different question. Yeah, but it's not, you don't get people like me to read your work. You. No, you don't. I mean,

Phil Hudson:

I think this fall, I will have known Michael for 10 years. I've asked him to read maybe three things.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, it's a big deal. It's a big deal to get somebody to read again. You're telling him to sit down. Somebody said that to me on DM Me. It's like, Hey, would you mind reading my screenplay? Would I mind giving up my Saturday afternoon sitting down, reading your thing, coming up with notes, getting on the phone with you, deliver my notes? What if I said to my dentist, Hey, my two hurts. Would you mind taking a look at it? My dentist say, no, not a problem. Not at all. Go call my office. Make an appointment. Bring your insurance card and your credit card for the deductible. That's what he would say. Yeah, it's business. It's professional that. What do you expect? No.

Phil Hudson:

Michael kindly offered to read something and I sent him the first script I wrote, and he referred to it as a Frankenstein. And I was like, oh my gosh, I know nothing. And this was five years into studying on my own. And I didn't send you anything else to read until it was a spec I wrote in film school. So that was probably three years later. And then the last thing I sent you to read was just last year. And that was the first good thing. That was the first thing. And your note on the second thing is, I can tell you're a competent writer and you can capture the voice of the show, but all your other notes were about my structure. It still wasn't there.

Michael Jamin:

And then the third piece was you're like, okay, now you're finally getting it right. Yeah. Now you're finally getting it.

Phil Hudson:

Yeah. And I consider myself egotistically to be a smart guy, but it really took off when Michael put his course together for me. And I'm your biggest advocate for that thing. All right. Danny Casone again. Have you met Mike Judge and Mark Marinn? They're geniuses, by the way.

Michael Jamin:

I've worked side by side with both of them. Mark more so than Mike, because I was the showrunner of Mark's Maron show on i c. So we worked side by side for four years. Mike, a little bit less, but I wrote on King of the Hill and Beaver and Butthead and Beaver was in Butthead he would send us, well, we write the scripts, and then he would send us which videos he wanted to make fun of. And so we would watch those. Then we'd go to the booth with him, we'd watch it over his shoulder, we'd pitch jokes, and then he would run into the booth and do the voices and kind of change, do it the way he wanted to do it. But yeah, but they're both great guys. Both of them are great.

Phil Hudson:

There you go. All right. Final questions. There's two, but one of them is like eight questions because it's the same question we get every single time you do a q and a or anything else. Same question. So I'm going to read two. First one, amalgamation of things. Should I use a script consultant? What are your opinions about people who call themselves professional readers, who give notes? Can you recommend a good script reading service? And how much should I person pay for that service? Do you have any readers or reader services to recommend any or to avoid?

Michael Jamin:

Okay. Woo. I would avoid anything called a service. Anything. If you can find a retired screenwriter or a screenwriter who has time on their hands and go check out their imdp, pay I mdb paid, check out their credits, read their work. If you could find something like that, and there are people that exist, those are the ones you want to pay and pay them. Whatever they ask, the more experience they have, pay them more. I personally, I would rather find someone with more and more experience and pay them more. If they want double because they have, they've been doing for 20 years, I'll pay double because skimping just doesn't help you. I'd pay. Their expertise is worth every penny. That's what I would say with these services, you're finding people, many of them just hiring people, aspiring writers with no more credits or than you do, no more experience than you have. And they're giving you notes and you're paying for it, and they're completely unqualified to tell you anything. They read their training brochure and that's it. And that's not how it works. A man. Now, what a else do you have to say?

Phil Hudson:

No, I was just going to say, I think one of the things you can think about too, to get a little tell that I just discovered this week, so I mentioned that I was asked to sign on to help a screen, a Sundance project, because of my experience with Sundance. And I think that it helps them think they're going to get a little bit ahead with having a couple other alumni and fellows on that roster. And they were going to put me in as a script consultant. I went to go see what that would look like on imdb. And right there in that same thread, it's like script doctors and script consultants go under miscellaneous crew, not writers.

Michael Jamin:

And it is

Phil Hudson:

The bottom. That's the same place where I put my writer's assistant, my writer's PR credit down there, because it's just not a value. It doesn't do anything in those. People may get hired to do work at a studio level, but I wouldn't hire them to do that on my script. You need to do

Michael Jamin:

That job. I dunno if they get hired a studio level.

Phil Hudson:

I don't know

Michael Jamin:

If that's a thing.

Phil Hudson:

So supposedly it's a thing, but you need to know how to write. And so find a writer to give you the feedback or find the writing and how to write to give you feedback. And that's again, what your private Facebook group does and what your course does for people.

Michael Jamin:

Find a screenwriter who has time on their hand. Maybe they're supplementing their income, but they have good credits and they know they've worked. Don't find someone who's a professional consultant reader or whatever. I would stay away from that.

Phil Hudson:

And last question, which is similar vein, but I think on a high note, BW asked, what does Michael think of submitting scripts to the Academy? Screenwriting contest, which is the fellows, the Nichols Fellowship.

Michael Jamin:

Oh, okay. Is that, I didn't realize they were the one posted.

Phil Hudson:

The academy is the Nichols Fellowship.

Michael Jamin:

Okay. Do that one. That's a prestigious one. If you win, if you come in, if you place, eh, doesn't really help you.

Phil Hudson:

I've, I've heard of Quarterfinalists and semi-finalists getting some meetings off of that because it's so competitive. And the right, the that's read by actual professionals are donating their time to read and score those. Right. So it's It's definitely has more clout than anything else.

Michael Jamin:

But yeah, go for it. Also, go for, if you have any fellowships, do those. Sure. If they're industry things, yeah. Sometimes you can get involved in the studios offer various,

Phil Hudson:

But this goes back, but just this whole thing goes back to just be careful where you're spending your money as a writer. Because you can spend thousands of dollars submitting scripts to festivals thinking that award or that laurel on your website or on your script is going to help you get ahead and it will do nothing for you. And they're all, a lot of them, not all of them are money making machines to fund whatever they're doing at the festival. And I can tell you firsthand that that's the case. I've

Michael Jamin:

Spoken about what I would do to break into the industry if I had to do it today. I'm going to do a few a webinar. I'm going to devote a webinar to that topic again probably in a few months. Cause I have other ones I've already planned out. We're going to do first. Get on them. It's free. It's free. That's all I got to say about that. MichaelJamin.com/webinar.

Phil Hudson:

Perfect. Alright, Michael, I think it's a good place to call it for the today. Anything else you want to add? Time of death,

Michael Jamin:

Phil.

Phil Hudson:

Time of death is.

Michael Jamin:

Time of death

Phil Hudson:

Is 50 something minutes. It's a long one. Yeah. Great.

Michael Jamin:

All right, everyone.

Phil Hudson:

Yeah. Beyond that, some things you can do to support yourself in writing. So again, you don't have to sign up for Michael's course. Michael's giving a lot of stuff. If you don't have the money, you That's okay, Michael. I will. That's okay. Just make sure people are clear here because they may not know you are offering 0% financing effectively on all these things. If you want to sign up when registration's open, you can do a painful a three month or a six month plan because you said you want to make it as affordable to everyone as possible. There were some partners we had that were adding financing and we removed that option just to make sure. Yeah, it was fair to everybody who wanted to get in,

Michael Jamin:

And if you can't pay, that's fine. You can go, I got a free lesson. Go to michaeljamin.com/free. If you want to get on my free newsletter where I give out three free tips a week, MichaelJamin.com/watchlist. If you'd like to download some scripts that I've written and read them because they think it'll help you, and they probably will. You can also find those on my website. We got a ton of free stuff. We got this podcast. So yeah, just enjoy. Take it in, take it in. Did you

Phil Hudson:

Mention the watch list?

Michael Jamin:

I did. That's our new, yeah, Michael Gemma do com watch

Phil Hudson:

List. Oh, I was thinking about thinking about all this stuff was blanked for a second. All right. Well, everybody, thank you so much for your time and listening in. Hopefully this was helpful to you and make sure you sign up for the webinar where you do get an opportunity to ask Michael questions live and we dive into more detailed stuff, michael jamen.com/webinar Again for that.

Michael Jamin:

All right everyone, we'll see you on the next one. Thanks for listening. Bring your questions next time. Awesome.

Phil Hudson:

Thanks Phil.

Michael Jamin:

Then keep writing in. Thanks. Keep writing everyone. That's our motto. Phil came up with that. Keep writing. Yeah,

Phil Hudson:

One good thing. You're welcome guys.

Michael Jamin:

See ya.

Phil Hudson:

This has been an episode of Screenwriters. Need to Hear This with Michael Jamin and Phil Hudson. If you'd like to support this podcast, please consider subscribing, leaving your review, and sharing this podcast with someone who needs to hear today's subject. For free daily screenwriting tips, follow Michael on Instagram, Facebook, and TikTok @MichaelJaminWriter. You can follow me on Instagram, Facebook, and TikTok @PhilAHudson. This episode was produced by Phil Hudson and edited by Dallas Crane. Until next time, keep writing.

Steve Baldikoski is an Emmy nominated Showrunner known for Fuller House. He's also worked on Last Man Standing, Glenn Martin D.D.S., Wilfred, and Kristie. Join Michael Jamin and Steve Baldikoski for a conversation about how Steve broke in and what it takes to make it in Hollywood

Steve Baldikoski on IMDB - https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0049747/

Steve Baldikoski on Twitter - https://twitter.com/finchbot2000

Free Writing Webinar - https://michaeljamin.com/op/webinar-registration/

Michael's Online Screenwriting Course - https://michaeljamin.com/course

Free Screenwriting Lesson - https://michaeljamin.com/free

Join My Watchlist - https://michaeljamin.com/watchlist

Steve Baldikoski:

I mean, you're, you are sort of clued in to, to what your boss likes. Mm-Hmm. , you also have your own tastes. You, you kind of know what the project is supposed to be. I, I, yeah, I don't know. There, there's no formal executive school on how to give notes. That's why it's kind, it's kind of a weird job because there's no training for it. I don't really necessarily know what makes you good or not good.

Michael Jamin:

You're listening to Screenwriters Need to Hear This with Michael Jamin. Hey everyone, it's Michael Jamin. Welcome to another episode of Screenwriters. Need to hear this. I got another great guest today. This is my old buddy, Steve Bobowski. Steve has written on some of the, some of your favorite shows, as long as your show's favorite shows are ,

Steve Baldikoski:

As long as they're, as long as you have Terrible Taste and only watch shows that are gone after 13 episodes, and

Michael Jamin:

Then, then these are your favorite shows. But I'm gonna start, I'm gonna, in no particular order of, of, I think I'm going in order Teenager Working. Remember that show Dag with David Allen Greer Baby Bob. Oh, we're gonna talk about Baby Bob. Okay. Yeah. A U s A. Andy Richter controls the universe. People like that show a lot. I, I'm with her or I'm with her. I'm with her. I'm with her.

Steve Baldikoski:

I'm with

Michael Jamin:

Her. I'm with her . Eight. Eight Simple Rules. The New Adventures of Old Christine. That was a good show. The Jake Effect. Big Shots. True. Jackson, I forgot you worked that out. Wilfred. Which you could thank me for Glenn Martin d s, which you could thank me for Kirsty, which I can thank you for. Last Man Standing, whatever, .

Steve Baldikoski:

Yeah. They don't have anyone to thank for that.

Michael Jamin:

Thank for that.

Steve Baldikoski:

Save Me.

Michael Jamin:

Jennifer Falls, Ned and Stacy. And then of course, you were the executive producer and showrunner of Fuller House, the Full House remake. Steve, welcome to the big show,

Steve Baldikoski:

. Thank, thank you for having me. It's very exciting to be here.

Michael Jamin:

Wasn't it exciting, man? Oh man. Oh, and I have to say, so yeah, so we started out my partner and I hired Steve and his partner Brian, on, on Glenn Martin dds. And we were always very grateful. These guys turned in great drafts and we were always extremely grateful. Yeah, thank you. And then we would just shovel more work as, as for gratitude, we would just shovel more scripts in your face. Write this one now,

Steve Baldikoski:

, that was one of the highlights of my career. That was some of the best times I've ever had.

Michael Jamin:

We had some, you know, it's funny, I asked Andy Gordon in in a, in a previous episode, I said, and I'll ask you the same question. If you had, if you could go back in time and either remake any of the shows you did worked on, or like rebooted or just work on it again, what, what would they be? Any,

Steve Baldikoski:

I thought you were gonna tell me. Andy's answer . Andy

Michael Jamin:

Said if you want, Andy said, just shoot me. And true. Jackson

Steve Baldikoski:

Uhhuh . I, I, Glen Martin was a highlight, and and I think it was an underappreciated show,

Michael Jamin:

Certainly was. And

Steve Baldikoski:

If, if it weren't in Claymation, maybe someone would've watched it.

Michael Jamin:

You know, we went on the internet, Seabert and I, my partner and I, we went on the internet and we found some guy talking about Glen Martin. And it was as if he was in the writer's room. It was as if he was, because he, he was right on the money . Like he knew what was good about it, what was bad about it. He had theories as to why ,

Steve Baldikoski:

I think you, you talking about Alex Berger, the creator,

Michael Jamin:

, it wasn't Alex. It was something like, it was something like Whacko on the internet, but boy, he was dead on. He was like, he knew exactly what he was talking about.

Steve Baldikoski:

. Well, one, one weird thing that that happened to me, this is slightly related. When, when Brian, my old writing partner and I took over for house in the last couple of seasons, it was right before the final season, and it was after Lori Locklin had her college

Issues, legal issues with varsity Blues. On April Fool's Day, there was this article in some Likee News or something where someone did a whole, it was a fake interview with me, but it seemed like it was real. And the reasonings that they were talking about getting rid of Lori's character and what would happen after, you know, she was divorced from Uncle Jesse on Fuller House. W it was so well thought out that it, I thought it had to be written by also someone in the room, Uhhuh, because they actually knew like, specific arguments that specific writers had in getting rid of this person. And then it turns out, only if you clicked the very bottom did it say April Fools. And it was all phony interview with me,

Michael Jamin:

But still they got it. Right. But it

Steve Baldikoski:

Was, it, it was so eerie that it was, it was probably probably had better reasons to include her or not include her than we did. So there are a lot of fans out there who understand the shows just as well as the writers Do.

Michael Jamin:

I, I think so. I, I think even on, people talk about King of the Hill and they remember episodes. I'm like, I don't remember that one. And then they look it up and go, I, I worked on it. I don't tell me what happened. It's like, I don't remember it. You know, it's from, you know, very important to some of these people. And you know, they, they, they watch it all the time. And I haven't watched it in 20 years. But

Steve Baldikoski:

But did you, there was a moment where when on Wilfrid where David Zuckerman, the creator didn't even know that he had a logic fallacy in the first episode. Do you know the story? No. I think he was at Comic-Con and he, he was, he, it it was about the pilot of Wilfred where Wilfred is trying to get through the fence and a regular dog would crawl through the fence, but instead Wilfred has an ax.

Michael Jamin:

Right. And

Steve Baldikoski:

And then they said, well, shouldn't I take the ax from Wilf Fred because it's dangerous? And then David said, wisely said, no, you can't grab the ax cuz that means the ax is real. And the second he said that someone in the audience held their hand up and said, well, what about the Bong? Yeah,

Michael Jamin:

What about the Bong? Yeah.

Steve Baldikoski:

And David had never considered that.

Michael Jamin:

Well,

Steve Baldikoski:

But Jar, that was fascinating that, that he, they had never thought of it on set, but out there. Got him instantly

Michael Jamin:

Etro gave a headache to write and remember, like, what, who, and then, and then your part of Brian's like

Steve Baldikoski:

That, that anecdote gave me a headache to mention.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, it was, I remember he just like, don't you think people just wanna see the dog dance

Steve Baldikoski:

?

Michael Jamin:

See the dog dance? That was his pitch. . Oh man. Oh my God, what a show. But did you ever,

Steve Baldikoski:

This whole section is even inside Wilf Fred.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, it is inside Wilfred.

Steve Baldikoski:

I don't think anyone would appreciate that. But did you

Michael Jamin:

Ever, even when you were running Fuller house, did you, did you ever turn to the, what do the fans want? Did you turn to the, because there's a lot of pressure

Steve Baldikoski:

On that actually, I have to say. That was a huge part of Fuller House and it was one of the things I think that the audience loved. And it was a unique situation for me because I had, still, to this day, I've seen two and a half episodes of the original full House.

Michael Jamin:

Uhhuh .

Steve Baldikoski:

So I didn't know anything about Full House, but other people did. And so if we would want to throw in, we call them Easter eggs, right? Throw in little Easter eggs and bring back, you know, some character that was in an, in a single episode 30 years ago, we would bring those actors back and the audience would go bananas. Yeah.

Michael Jamin:

But how, how can, you didn't watch any old episodes or, you know, there's so much,

Steve Baldikoski:

Why, why didn't I, or

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, why didn't you?

Steve Baldikoski:

Well part of it is I, I didn't want to actually be beholden to any of the other of the old stories.

Michael Jamin:

Right.

Steve Baldikoski:

Because I mean, even, you know, like Fuller House is a little bit of an old fashioned show, but we didn't wanna make it just like completely stuck in the past and, and a show that is only about, that's referencing the original show. And that was more helpful to just have a perspective of like, what's it like raising, you know, three kids in, you know, modern day California.

Michael Jamin:

But did you feel a, a strong, I guess, obligation to make sure the fans were happy? Cuz I'm show the writers are writing for themselves.

Steve Baldikoski:

Oh, oh, for sure. We were doing that constantly and you know, we, we knew it. There were certain things that were like, you know, throwing red meat to the audience.

Michael Jamin:

Oh.

Steve Baldikoski:

You know, kind of like, like, like if you're doing the show Fuller House, no. You know, no matter what the story you're doing is, or whatever, if you have to, you bring in a dog wearing sunglasses and the audience goes bananas. And then how do you talk? And a, a baby runs in wearing the same sunglasses.

Michael Jamin:

Mm-Hmm.

Steve Baldikoski:

and then just the, the audience like tears of joy in the audience

Michael Jamin:

Because that's, that, that was an old staple in the original show, stuff like that.

Steve Baldikoski:

Yeah. I mean, that's just the kind of thing that they would stoop to, you know, . And so, no, but it was, but it was this, it was this, the Four House is a show that like, you know, it really, it really affected me as a writer cuz it was really that time when every week there were 200 fans in the audience. Super fans who knew every single episode of Full House and Fuller House. And so you would get this amazing instant recognition from the audience that you're writing for them.

Michael Jamin:

Right.

Steve Baldikoski:

Especially when you would have those little Easter eggs and you don't get that on a lot of shows.

Michael Jamin:

Right. You

Steve Baldikoski:

Know, like I, you know, may maybe on your Just Shoot Me you would have just shoot me fans, but every seat every week was a super fan.

Michael Jamin:

No. The weird thing about Just Shoot Me, you know, cause we was, we were there the first four years and the, the first season, probably the first two seasons that the audience, they weren't fans, they were hostages. There was people who came from Free Pizza, , you can tell they wouldn't wanna be there. . And they know the show

Steve Baldikoski:

Prisoners,

Michael Jamin:

Prison Prisoners,

Steve Baldikoski:

You're sailors in for Fleet Week.

Michael Jamin:

It's basically that. I mean, people listening, it's like you show up on Hollywood Boulevard and they hand out tickets, Hey, who wants to see a taping of the show? And then anyone would show up and they would stay warm, cause anybody to get outta the rain. But

Steve Baldikoski:

These, no, these were people who came from not just around the country, but from literally around the world to see the show. Yeah. And they would th these people would center their vacation on coming to the show. And, and so, you know, I I mean I, it was also amazing to be able to, like, after the show, you know, if you knew who the people were you would bring them down and, and they would just get a kick out of walking around the set. Mm-Hmm. . And that was another kind of highlight every week was, you know, having these people, you know, have this awesome experience that they've grown up with these characters in this set. And then they're running around on the set, you know, now that they're grown up and they've got kids who, who like the shows.

Michael Jamin:

Now this set was a repeat that wasn't,

Steve Baldikoski:

That was kind of amazing cuz you would, it it wasn't just, it wasn't just fans, it was two generations of fans. Right. You know, it was like people who are sort of our age and then they're kids. Right. And, and so, you know, when network people talk about family co-viewing, it really was that it was, you know, parents who still love the show,

Michael Jamin:

But it wasn't the set was a remake. Right. It wasn't the actually,

Steve Baldikoski:

It, it was a remake. But I'll I'll tell you, and this is also part of the weird experience coming onto the show, cuz neither, you know, I had no appreciation really for a full house at the time. So before the first show, and this was the entire first season before it aired on Netflix there was a curtain covering the set. And before they would announce the actors, they would, they would lift the curtain like it, like it was like at the theater. Right. And the first time for the shooting the pilot, when they revealed that to the audience, people burst into tears.

Michael Jamin:

Wow.

Steve Baldikoski:

Just seeing the set and the couch looking just like it did in the eighties. And the way they really, really mimicked the original set, you know, to the Inch cuz they had the original plans. It was amazing to see people moved by a set.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, I bet. I

Steve Baldikoski:

Bet. And yeah. And so, so that was pretty unusual. And then any line would get, even a mediocre line would get an aureus laugh from the audience cuz they were all, they've been waiting for 25 years to see this moment.

Michael Jamin:

Now, I imagine you had some of the writers in the show who grew up with watching the original Fall House, who knew more about the show than, than you did? Who?

Steve Baldikoski:

Oh, oh yeah. Yeah. For sure. And that's why also I felt I didn't need to see the show that much. I'm not recommending people shouldn't do homework .

Michael Jamin:

Now, one of the things that shocked me when we, when we were working with you, this is long, many years ago, and maybe it was only a season one or something. You shocked me when you said that you, at one point you were, you started as a network executive. I was like, you what? What

Steve Baldikoski:

Well, yeah, Stu, a studio, executive

Michael Jamin:

Studio. So

Steve Baldikoski:

Sorry. Yeah. Yeah. I was, I was I was like a director of comedy development at Universal.

Michael Jamin:

And so tell tell us what, what that means. What

Steve Baldikoski:

Do, should I go back further? Could go

Michael Jamin:

Back to where you wanna start

Steve Baldikoski:

To that point. I mean, I never, I never set out to be a writer. I don't even know if you know any of my origin story about this stuff. Oh. I never really set out to be a writer. I always loved TV, but I also love music in, in movies. But didn't even know I was gonna get into the entertainment business until I was trying to blow a year or two before I would get a little bit of work experience and then back to go to law school. You were gonna law school get an mba and I was never gonna be a part of the entertainment industry, but I just lucked into what turned out to be a great job in the mail room at United Talent Agency, uta. And it was like this moment that U t A was on the rise and I, yeah, I was in the mail room where I'm literally working 80 hours a week delivering mail and reading scripts for free and writing coverage, doing that for five months. Then I got on a desk, I worked for Nancy Jones and Jay Surs.

Michael Jamin:

Oh boy.

Steve Baldikoski:

I was their first assistants at United Talent, I believe. And then and then I knew it wasn't for me cuz it was really cutthroat. Yes. I, I was learning what I didn't want to do. And working a traditional office that led to I got a job in development. I worked at Aaron Spelling Productions, and then that job got me wait, how

Michael Jamin:

Did you get a job in development? Cause it's, it is hard to make the transition from being an assistant at a desk to having a non-a job anywhere.

Steve Baldikoski:

Oh, oh. I, I was still an assistant for Oh, okay. Years. I was an assistant for spelling for one year. Mm-Hmm. , then I was an assistant. I worked for Jamie Tarsus at b c. Right. And that's, and that was kind of the, the, the pivotal moment in my career. Cuz kind of anyone who was Jamie Tarsus assistant moved on to become the next executive. Right. And so that kind of became my path. I was, I, I never set out to do this, but I just kept at getting a job that was just better than the last one. Mm-Hmm. . So I never had the reason to go back to law school. Right. And it was just like they kept on dragging me back in with a slightly better job. So this one year I spent as Jamie's assistant at N B C Frazier had been bought, but not shot.

And then Jamie bought friends that year. I can't remember the names of the other shows, but but like, you know, being on set at the pilot of Friends was really that pivotal moment for me where I thought, oh, th this is, you know, really what I wanna do. Like, and I was on the path to be an executive, but I really would look over and the writers seemed to be having a lot more fun. And that's where I, I didn't really even know it, but that was, that was my path to be to being a writer was just kind of hanging out at N B C and, and seeing how things, you know, being a part of. But even

Michael Jamin:

When you were an executive development exec, were you thinking, I want to be a writer? Or were you thinking No, no,

Steve Baldikoski:

Not really. I, I knew like, the executive path was like, was fine and I did that. And on the executive path, when you're no longer an assistant, you get bumped up and you get the office and it was very kind of, there were a lot of fancy trappings. I would wear a suit and I'd drive around all the networks trying to sell co half hour comedies to the networks. And it was it was a good job. But there was just something I still kept on looking at, you know, the writers who were on the floor and thought they were having more fun.

Michael Jamin:

But Do you, and you were giving notes to writers Yes. As executive. Do you at any point feel like, I don't really, how might, who might I be giving notes to a writer when they

Steve Baldikoski:

Oh, I, I, I felt that all the time. And because I felt that, cuz I kind of had so much respect for what the writers did. Yeah. That it was, it was hard for me to give as many notes. Cuz I thought the writer probably already had thought these things through

Michael Jamin:

Uhhuh .

Steve Baldikoski:

But where were you

Michael Jamin:

Getting your notes from then?

Steve Baldikoski:

What's that?

Michael Jamin:

Where were you getting your notes from? Where were you getting your opinions from?

Steve Baldikoski:

Well, I, I have opinions just like, I

Michael Jamin:

Wouldn't have, I wouldn't have when I was starting it out, I go, I don't know. That's fine to me.

Steve Baldikoski:

I mean, you're, you're sort of clued in to, to what your boss likes. Mm-Hmm. , you also have your own tastes. You, you kind of know what the project is supposed to be. I, yeah, I don't know. There, there's no formal executive school on how to give notes. That's why it's kind, it's kind of a weird job because there's no training for it. I don't really necessarily know what makes you good or not good.

Michael Jamin:

And some, a lot of it is just opinion. But I I sometimes you'll get the same notes and which are fair, which is a, you know, start the story journal, whatever. That's a great note that you're always, this is totally valid note. But sometimes I, you know, I've been in meetings and you're like, you get a note, you're like, but that's just your opinion. This doesn't make it better or worse.

Steve Baldikoski:

Yes. And, and I mean, obviously, you know, that's something you, you will struggle with till the end of time. Yeah. But, but I also always go back to, you know, I, I think there's a, there's a cartoon about this at, at some point, but, but like, if Shakespeare handed an Hamlet, his agent would give him notes. Yeah. And he would say, Hamlet is inactive. Yeah. And then you would make him Mae swashbuckling hero.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. Right. Yes.

Steve Baldikoski:

And that would ruin Hamlet. So, so like, you know, and, and the problem is that like, the, that agent's note would be a well, well-guided note.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. Hamlet, that is

Steve Baldikoski:

A mm-hmm. is a valid thing for him to say, but it also ruins the inherent art of the piece. Yeah.

Michael Jamin:

You know? Yeah. Had a kick. But

Steve Baldikoski:

Then not that writing Glen Martin was the equivalent of Shakespeare

Michael Jamin:

In many ways. But it was

Steve Baldikoski:

Pretty close.

Michael Jamin:

It was a little higher

Steve Baldikoski:

. But ,

Michael Jamin:

We had some fun on that show. But and then when, when you wanted to make the transition, I don't know how, how, how do you do, how did you do that?

Steve Baldikoski:

So, so, and once, like, and this is just my case, it was shockingly not that hard. My who became my writing partner was one of my best friends in college. And Brian had always wanted to be a sitcom writer. And just kind of had, kind of flamed out a couple of times. And then he was living in San Francisco and having a really excellent career as a, as an advertising copywriter. And I called him up and I told him I wanted to write sitcom with him. And he said no. And then he say he changed his mind.

Michael Jamin:

Why did he say no?

Steve Baldikoski:

Cuz I said, fine, I'm, if you don't write it with me, I'm gonna write it with Sue Ale .

Michael Jamin:

Oh,

Steve Baldikoski:

Funny. That's a true story. She wasn't,

Michael Jamin:

Sue wasn't an Sue Nagle who later went on to run H B O and then and Ana and you know, she, she's big, but she, at the time she was, she was, she

Steve Baldikoski:

Was not yet an agent or she was a very young one. And we, but

Michael Jamin:

She didn't wanna write,

Steve Baldikoski:

Did she? So then we got together and to go to a coffee place to brainstorm. And we got into a, we didn't even make it to the coffee place before we got into a huge argument

Michael Jamin:

Over what?

Steve Baldikoski:

Oh, I don't, I don't remember

Michael Jamin:

. This partnership's not going well,

Steve Baldikoski:

. No, he was, he was not. But, but if you can't make it to the place where you're supposed to think , then it's probably a doom partnership. So anyway, Brian said yes. Mm-Hmm. . And then so over the phone we wrote a spec news radio back when people still did that. Yep. And News Radio had just been on the air. So we wanted to write a show that we loved and also that there weren't a ton of samples of other specs like that. Right. So we, this news radio early on and I gave it to Sue Nagle, she liked it. She gave it to Michael Whitehorn at Ned and Stacy. And we had one meeting Brian flew in from San Francisco. I showed up in my suit from being in an executive. I had to sneak out from Universal and not tell him where I was going. Did

Michael Jamin:

Michael White hard know you were an executive at the time? Yes, he did. He

Steve Baldikoski:

Didn't think, but, but, but that was actually kind of a good thing because Brian was an ad executive. Mm-Hmm. and Ned of Ned and Stacy Right. Was an ad executive. And then also cuz I had, you know, funny corporate stories I think Michael liked that as well. And the fact he gets two people for a staff writer's salary.

Michael Jamin:

Were you afraid to leave your cushy job?

Steve Baldikoski:

Less so than Brian. I, if, if I flamed out, I could always go back to being an executive and, you know, that would be fine. Right. And, and in hindsight, that probably would've been the best thing that happened, everyone.

Michael Jamin:

But Yeah. I mean, it

Steve Baldikoski:

Wouldn't be here talking to you. I, I, I'd be living in Bermuda by now, .

Michael Jamin:

Oh, well, you know, learn.

Steve Baldikoski:

Yes. So, but unfortunately I made it through that year and then made it through the next like 25 years. And so, so that was my, that was my path. And, and it kind of happened really fast that I, so then Michael hired us after that meeting, and then I had to go tell my boss at Universal that not only was I looking for a job, but I had one and it was as a writer.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah.

Steve Baldikoski:

And then, and so their business affairs made this big stink that they owned my half of my spec script.

Michael Jamin:

And what, what are they planning on doing with it?

Steve Baldikoski:

I, well, that, well, I, I asked them that and I think they were all gonna take my spot in the writer's room.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. What you're, they have they own ha you're half of a worthless SPAC script that just got you a job. I don't know,

Steve Baldikoski:

Value it. It was a weird thing. But they,

Michael Jamin:

But business

Steve Baldikoski:

Affairs won't hesitate to

Michael Jamin:

Sink a deal whenever possible. . Yes. We remove the joy out of a writer . We have a three hour phone call to

Steve Baldikoski:

Figure this out. And they, yes, they effectively did steal my joy of that moment,

Michael Jamin:

. Oh my God. And then, yeah. Then the rest was just one show after another, basically. And

Steve Baldikoski:

Then, yeah. And yeah, it started out we got in, at the time there used to be the WB in, in U p n, the Paramount Network. I think like in that, in that time period, this is like 97, 98, there was like the peak of the sitcom. I think there were over 60 half hour sitcoms on the air. And then Brian and I rode that rollercoaster.

Michael Jamin:

Hey, it's Michael Jamin. If you like my videos and you want me to email them to you for free, join my watch list. Every Friday I send out my top three videos. These are for writers, actors, creative types. You can unsubscribe whenever you want. I'm not gonna spam you and it's absolutely free. Just go to michaeljamin.com/watchlist.

So tell me about developing your last project.

Steve Baldikoski:

Okay, so the, the last project that I just developed I sold it to a ABC with 20th. Mm-Hmm. came to me because it was so personal to what I'm going through as a dad. Mm-Hmm. , my youngest kid is non-binary.

Michael Jamin:

Okay.

Steve Baldikoski:

And she she was born a girl, Vivian. And then around time, she was about the second grade, she came to us and said that she, she felt that she was a boy. Right. And so that led us down on this journey. You know, finding out, you know, like having a trans kid and non-binary kid and never knowing anything about it. Right. and that kind of led me to want to write about it after I broke up with my writing partner right at the start of Covid. And I was gonna have to write my first thing. So I was gonna write at first I was actually gonna develop step by step BA based on the same concept. I was unable to sell that to H B O Max mm-hmm. . so instead I redeveloped the idea of me being this like hapless dad sort of middle class working class guy in rural Wisconsin, which is where my mom's family is from.

And then having this tomboy kid that he just loves more than anything. Hi. Her, his Maisie all of a sudden informs him that no her name is, she's now Hunter. And you're thinking this as a single camera comedy or what? This was a single camera comedy. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it was structured like a multicam, but, but really that was from, anyway, that was my speck. And what that led me to, to, to, to do is it got me the attention of other people who were in the non-binary trans world. So then ultimately I partnered just through meeting lots of people this woman named Billy Lee, who some people know because Billy Lee was on early seasons of Vander Pump Rules. Okay. and so it was kind of a, like a well-known person in, in the trans community.

And then, so Billy Lee and her friend Priscilla had this idea about her own life, which is kind of almost too hard to believe is true. Billy Lee grew up in rural Indiana as a boy. Left home in 18, found out that he wasn't gay, he was actually a, she Right. And went through the surgeries and then, you know, a a lot of turmoil, but then returns back home and fell in love with her best male friend from junior high. And now they're together as an on and off couple. And so it was, how, how do I take that and turn that into a half hour comedy? I know it's a long wind up, but it's a great story that is almost hard to believe. Yeah. And

Michael Jamin:

Was her best friend growing up.

Steve Baldikoski:

Yes. And so we pitched it really as a Netflix H b o Showtime show that would, would show that magic relationship and also have sex and, you know, things that I think would be hard, you know, relatively hard for a, you know, a regular network audience.

Michael Jamin:

And it's sold,

Steve Baldikoski:

But it sold to a b ABC because they wanted, there's this great, her relationship with her father is also really what it's about. Right. And it's, it, it is a fa is also a family show about how it took a trans woman to fix this broken Midwestern family.

Michael Jamin:

Right. And

Steve Baldikoski:

Right in ABC's wheelhouse, you

Michael Jamin:

Know, where where is that now? At like

Steve Baldikoski:

A, like a Connor's but with a strong trans element.

Michael Jamin:

And where is that right now?

Steve Baldikoski:

It's dead. Oh,

Michael Jamin:

Steve Baldikoski:

Michael Jamin:

With every other pilot.

Steve Baldikoski:

Yeah. yeah. I, I, you know, I can't, I I can't entirely blame them. Like, it, it would be very amazing to see a, b, c put on a show about a trans woman and not have it be one of the peripheral characters.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah.

Steve Baldikoski:

I, I, I think that's just a hard sell. Maybe if I was, you know, a more powerful writer, could, could you, you know, jam that down their throat? But I, I don't think, I think the subject matter was exactly their wheelhouse, but also maybe too, too on the bleeding edge for them.

Michael Jamin:

It, it feels a little like, you know, some somebody somewhere at that H B O show. I love that show. No. Oh yeah. It's a little sim it's it, and there's not trans, but it's, it's similar that, I don't know, that just remind me of It's great. It's a great show. Our friend Rob Cohen directs a bunch of those. Oh yeah.

Steve Baldikoski:

Oh, I'll have to check that out.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. Great show. But, so then, okay, so then what, what else? Like, you, I mean, it's been a while since, you know, since Fuller House, but what was that like? I always ask this, what's it like working with the cuz a lot has changed since you and I broke in. Yes. What is it working on with like the, the new generation of writers?

Steve Baldikoski:

Well luckily at Four House I was still the new generation of writers . What wasn't that

Michael Jamin:

Mean, wasn't that long ago.

Steve Baldikoski:

I, I still felt young on the show Uhhuh. Cause Cause we had people No, we, we had people who were older and Oh right. And you know, were around the early, the

Michael Jamin:

Original show.

Steve Baldikoski:

And so, so it was kind of great to feel like I was on the young side for once. Yeah. but I, I understand what you're, I understand what you're, what you're getting to are like in terms of how the room has changed from started to now, even

Michael Jamin:

In terms of preparation because, you know, you can answer any way you want. But it, like, basically there was more when we were coming up, you were on a show for longer. There were more senior writers and you were constantly learning and you were never, I never, you were never like thrown into the hot wa hot water yet. But now I feel like these kids come in and there's no really training ground. There's no, there's even, you know, I think there's an article a couple days ago, there's no mentorship anymore because

Steve Baldikoski:

No, no, no, no, no. There, there isn't. And you know, that's too sad. I think that, I think content in general is as good as it's ever been. Mm-Hmm. . And yet that training system doesn't seem to exist. And I wish it did. When, when we first got in around the Ned and Stacy era, like there still was that you would still feel that like a showrunner would take someone mm-hmm. Under his wing, like Michael Whitehorn did with David Lit. Yep. And Shepherd that person cuz they would have multiple years of Ned and Stacy. And then luckily that turned into King of Queens. Mm-Hmm. and, and you know, so

Michael Jamin:

There were schools.

Steve Baldikoski:

Mike were together for a long time. That's the old model. I don't see that anymore. I wish it was there. Because to to be honest with you, like when Brian and I made the jump from co-executive producers of Fuller House to executive producers, it, it was like, we are being thrown to the wolves after 25 years. Yes. Because because of jumping from show to show, to show like younger writers do now all the time. I, I didn't learn those skills mm-hmm. . And so we didn't really know that much about editing, you know, sweetening like it, how's our camera coverage. Right. you know, all all of those little things that, you know, I had to, I had to learn them very, very quickly. And so luckily I had a, a great, you know, you know, crew that all wanted to help us as, you know, learn as well. But yeah, there is no system. I wish there was

Michael Jamin:

Like, I even think like multi-camera, like you, back in the day, you'd come out of a school like we basically . We, we kind of came out of the Frazier school cause Levitan came outta Frazier, which came outta the cheer school. And it was like that kind of pedigree that you had and you're just learning from all those people. And then now, like, there's so few multi cams. Like if they were to bring back multi cams, well who's gonna do it? Who knows how to do it? Because it's different than doing a single camera.

Steve Baldikoski:

It's funny, it's funny you say that because that's why I'm calling onto the business. Yeah. that I'm hoping, I'm hoping that that we can stick around long enough that it will come back at some point. Uhhuh

Michael Jamin:

. Yeah.

Steve Baldikoski:

I, I love the format. Like, I mean that's, that's one of the things that like really me about Fuller House is you know, I was able to be there for like five years mm-hmm. . and I never really had to worry about, you know, job security and it, it was this amazing place and we, and there were fans of the show and, and it was just great to write for them. And so that spoiled me, you know, now that that kind of is, you know, has gone away now that Fuller house is no longer on the air. Friday night was my drug, you know, cuz you know, Friday night I love putting on a show every week and I miss that.

Michael Jamin:

Here's my pitch Fullest house. Pay me. That's,

Steve Baldikoski:

That's, that's a great idea. That's a great, I wonder, I wonder if anyone pitched that to me, before the day I started.

Michael Jamin:

I wonder if anybody pitched that to me. Your shitty joke. .

Steve Baldikoski:

So was it one of my low IQ children?

Michael Jamin:

. Well then, so then what do you do? So what do you do now? I mean you're obviously you're developing and, and

Steve Baldikoski:

So, so now I I'm, I'm working on a, a, a new multi-camera idea. I'm very excited about

Michael Jamin:

And Gone

Steve Baldikoski:

Haven't

Michael Jamin:

Taken it out yet.

Steve Baldikoski:

Yeah. no, I'm just, I I I, I think I finally ha I have the pilot story. I'm just trying to populate it with all the other, all the other things.

Michael Jamin:

Okay. And then, and then

Steve Baldikoski:

With all the other characters cuz I basically started with the central character, Uhhuh . It is kind of high concept, but I don't wanna give it away. I I'll talk to you off camera about it. Okay. with the central character and then that led to a bigger world. Then populate that world kind of how to, how I want to, how I wanna fit tonally into that world. Like it's, it's, it's an idea that would, to me, it feels a little in the vein of what we do in the shadows.

Michael Jamin:

Oh, okay. Yeah.

Steve Baldikoski:

In terms of like a high concept comedy idea. And because I never worked for him, but like, my hero as a sitcom writer is Paul Sims.

Michael Jamin:

Okay.

Steve Baldikoski:

And it, you know, my first spec was Ned and Stacy. I mean, I, I was news Radio. Radio. Yeah. And which was run by Paul Sims, created by Paul Sims. And now he runs mm-hmm. . you know, what we do in the Shadows, which I just think is a brilliant, brilliant show.

Michael Jamin:

So then what do you have, what advice do you have for people? Do you have any advice for people trying to get into the business now? Well,

Steve Baldikoski:

that's why I'm here. I thought I was seeking advice from you. Yeah.

Michael Jamin:

You thought you were a, a job.

Steve Baldikoski:

I thought people were gonna, I thought people were gonna call in and tell me what to do with my life.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, exactly.

Steve Baldikoski:

I, I mean the, the number one thing is like, if you want to be a writer, I think you probably have to move to LA maybe New York. But if you want to be in TV comedy, I think you have to be in LA Yeah. That's the first thing you have to do is move here and then write all, you can write things that make you laugh. Right. That abuse you, because no one else will probably enjoy it. So you might as well, you might as well . And, and also, and also I think you, you, you have to get creative, you know I think social media is a great way to get noticed.

Michael Jamin:

Mm-Hmm. ,

Steve Baldikoski:

My wife happens to be an executive on the TV side, and she bought the Twitter feed shit, my dad says when she was

Michael Jamin:

Wild. And that was gotta be 10 years ago now.

Steve Baldikoski:

And Yes. And I, and I think that was like the first thing that a network executive or that a network has like, bought something on, like no one was buying a Twitter feed at the time. Right. And, and I thought that was pretty clever that Wendy started looking at things like that. And I, I think that's a great place to get noticed. Yeah,

Michael Jamin:

I agree.

Steve Baldikoski:

Especially for young comedy writers. Does she

Michael Jamin:

Still do that? Does she still actively, does she look on social media for other people like that?

Steve Baldikoski:

She does that. She also she flips through, they get they get proposals of books that are coming out. Not even books that have been written, but just titles of book proposals sometimes.

Michael Jamin:

Really. And

Steve Baldikoski:

She has scanned through that and bought a series based on one of the blurbs that she read about

Michael Jamin:

That I've

Steve Baldikoski:

Never heard that. That was, that that was actually the show Atory.

Michael Jamin:

I Okay. Cuz that's a good title. I

Steve Baldikoski:

Never heard that

Michael Jamin:

Before. So I would, I would, I've always, cause my advice to given people is, well, it's gotta be a bestselling book, but you're saying

Steve Baldikoski:

Oh, oh, oh. I'm not, oh, I'm not suggesting that's a way to get noticed,

Michael Jamin:

Right.

Steve Baldikoski:

To, to write a book. Although it's not a bad idea. If you have a great life story, write a book or put it on TikTok.

Michael Jamin:

Right.

Steve Baldikoski:

I think, I think just if you have a comic voice, there are a million ways to get it out there. Yeah. and my dear friend, a guy named David Arnold was a writer on Filler House and just started showing, you know, doing TikTok videos of, of him and his wife and kids. And then he, like, I think Ellen DeGeneres was the first to share one of his videos, and then that blew up for him. And then he ended up, he was getting sponsored and he was a, he was a standup comic and it was helping out with his standup business. Yeah. And so at the age of, you know, 53, he was discovered on new media, you know, and

Michael Jamin:

And what would has

Steve Baldikoski:

Become little tiny sketches about his family.

Michael Jamin:

Oh, I, let's talk about Kirsty, which was you, you were, to me, that was a lot of fun. So that was a Kirsty Alley show. Yeah. And you guys brought us in. They needed a a freelance. I don't know why they, but they wanted to have somebody freelance even though you got a, a great writing staff. Oh,

Steve Baldikoski:

.

Michael Jamin:

And I like, we're like, we'll do it. And then

Steve Baldikoski:

I think, I think our, I think I think your agent said that your teeth were falling out and if you didn't write a script for the medical Oh,

Michael Jamin:

Not at all. Honestly,

Steve Baldikoski:

That show,

Michael Jamin:

Because that was a bunch of heavy hitters on that show. Yeah. I really enjoyed it. We were only sat, we only sat in for a couple days. We walked you guys, we walked in and then you guys said, okay, here's the story. We, we broke it, kind of go write it. We're like, okay. And but it was a, it

Steve Baldikoski:

Was to start Ted Damson. Sson.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. And, and then, and Marco punted it for se the next season thinking it was gonna be a season two Marco, there's no season two . You don't punt that. You shoot it today before, before they pull the plug.

Steve Baldikoski:

The old, we will use this we'll use scripts season two. Yeah.

Michael Jamin:

The old season two

Steve Baldikoski:

Trick. I don't know if that was him being tricked or you being tricked.

Michael Jamin:

Honestly, we had a great time. It was

Steve Baldikoski:

A great script. It was a great

Michael Jamin:

Script. It was fun. It was just fun sitting in with a bunch of people. Yeah, well, a bunch of writers that I respected. So

Steve Baldikoski:

No, that was an amazing, that was an amazing experience. I, I, we like Claris Leachman did the show. Mm-Hmm. like some really, you know we, we wrote an episode for John Travolta. Yeah.

Michael Jamin:

And was it Michael Richards and Ria Pearlman. And it was like, these are good, these are heavy hitters, these are great actors. So, and

Steve Baldikoski:

The, the night that Claris Leachman did the show, we went out for drinks afterwards, Uhhuh with her. And I ended up sitting next to Kirsty Allie's assistant. And it wasn't until about 10 minutes into my conversation when she mentioned reincarnation, that I realized that I was talking to a high level Scientologist. And then I, and then I noticed she was doing all these Scientology tricks with me, like deep deeply staring into my eyes and not blinking until I blink. It was, it was, it was very bizarre.

Michael Jamin:

Wow. I I think we can,

Steve Baldikoski:

That's, that, that's, that's a good enough reason to become a sitcom writer is Yeah. To have someone do Scientology mind tricks on you. Those

Michael Jamin:

Are, that those are all these, those are always good stories when you Yeah. Can you go hang out on the past? Hang out. Yeah. And then what about

Steve Baldikoski:

When, when Clarus Leachman is far from the craziest person at the table? .

Michael Jamin:

She was, she was pretty wild. Yeah.

Steve Baldikoski:

Michael Jamin:

Did I ever work? I'm trying to remember if I ever worked with her on something. I think I did, but I can't remember what it was.

Steve Baldikoski:

Gotta be. Just, just shoot me.

Michael Jamin:

It might have been. I don't remember. I, I, you know, but Okay. Well let's get to baby, let's get to the, what everyone wants to talk about Baby Bob.

Steve Baldikoski:

Oh,

Michael Jamin:

, let's go. You

Steve Baldikoski:

Saved the best for last.

Michael Jamin:

I saved the best for last. Let's talk about baby. Well,

Steve Baldikoski:

I, I believe that Baby Bob was the highest rated show that I've ever been on,

Michael Jamin:

But they canceled it so fast.

Steve Baldikoski:

They canceled it. Yes. I think that was a, that was a disconnect where the high, high ups meaning like Les Moon vest when he was running CBSs, I think he wanted Baby Bob to be on the air. Oh. And so that he developed it like two or three times with multiple casts.

Michael Jamin:

Right. We gotta have a talking baby.

Steve Baldikoski:

And it was, and, but the, but the Talking baby always stayed the same based on these commercials. Was it Geico? Yes. I think his Geico commercials with the baby Ba with Baby Bob interviewing Shaq Yeah. Is, it's the concept that got everyone all hot and bothered. And so, so Les Moonves bought the show. This is my version of the story, I'm sure it's only partially accurate. But he didn't really include the lower level executives who absolutely hated the show. And so, as Brian and I got hired on the show, we thought, Hey, it's a c b s show. They must like the show. But the reaction from the executives after every table read was basically, how dare you,

Michael Jamin:

How dare how dare you have the baby talk? How dare you. What

Steve Baldikoski:

Like, just everything about the show seemed to offend the, the c bs executives incivility who were in charge of the show.

Michael Jamin:

Were, were there anything advertised guys in it? Were they involved at all?

Steve Baldikoski:

No, not, I don't think so. Kenny Kenny Campbell is the voice and mouth of the baby. Uhhuh . And then actually I didn't know much about babies when I was on the show, but then now when I look back, I realize how creepy it is that a baby has a full set of adult teeth. Yeah. Yeah. That are prominent. If I saw a baby like that in real life, I would run.

Michael Jamin:

Do you think that was the problem with the show?

Steve Baldikoski:

, this is the baby's teeth? Well, well the Mike Saltzman, my dear friend who Yeah. Saltman created the show, described it as Frazier, and they happened to have a talking baby.

Michael Jamin:

The other, so the other Oh, Freeman was Frazier had, okay. Frazier. All right.

Steve Baldikoski:

And they just happened to have a talking baby. I

Michael Jamin:

Saltman

Steve Baldikoski:

That was, that was Mike's

Michael Jamin:

And what, what were the writers do? Did, yeah.

Steve Baldikoski:

I don't have a lot of memories. . Okay.

Michael Jamin:

So

Steve Baldikoski:

There were a lot of late nights and one night, I think it was about midnight, that I got into a shouting match with one of the other writers about whether or not Baby Bob was a genius.

Michael Jamin:

Right.

Steve Baldikoski:

And the other writer was taking the stance of he's not a genius, he's only talking at six months. Mozart was writing symphonies at, at five or seven, and I was shouting and I was yelling about the other side that Mozart was not talking at sick at six months.

Michael Jamin:

And was everyone looking at you both outta your mind? ?

Steve Baldikoski:

Yes. Like, it's midnight. Can I go home?

Michael Jamin:

Can I go home? How get the baby to dance? That's all.

Steve Baldikoski:

But, but, but, but, but I mean, part of the lesson there is even a show that you think is so, so simple or terrible that you could write it in it, in its in your sleep. Uhhuh . It's not that way. No. No. Because even a show like that is very hard to write. Yes.

Michael Jamin:

Yes. Because

Steve Baldikoski:

You have so many layers of people to Please,

Michael Jamin:

Yes. People ask me is they say is a, is a, is a great show. Hard to write than a bad show. No, they're all, they're all kind of hard to write for different reasons. Yeah.

Steve Baldikoski:

And that, that was, I mean, definitely a lesson. And then another lesson was despite what we felt like, I like it, it is sort of embarrassing to be on a show like Baby Bob when you're on the Paramount lot and then the Frazier Golf Cart drives by and you're in the same business, but you're not in the same business. But when it came to the ratings, baby Bob did huge in the ratings. Yeah. Yeah. And it was like one of the top, I think it's one of the top new comedies that year.

Michael Jamin:

And that's so interesting. And, and that's, that's the thing people don't realize as well, is that you, you may be a great writer, but if you're in this lane, it's hard to get out of that lane cuz that's how people see you. Yes. And if you're in a great, even if you're even a bad writer on a great show, now you're in that lane. You're in a great ri you're, you know, you, you're inflated. So Yeah. Yeah. yeah. People don't quite realize that.

Steve Baldikoski:

Yeah.

Michael Jamin:

And you take, you gotta take the job, you gotta get you, but you take the job you get, you know, so Yeah. And,

Steve Baldikoski:

And, and you really, and you really don't know if it's gonna pan out.

Michael Jamin:

No.

Steve Baldikoski:

Like I remember talking to Al Jane and Mike Reese mm-hmm. when we worked with them and asking them when they got started, they started on the, started on The Simpsons I think coming off of Gary Shaline show and when they were pitched coming on to do this cartoon on Fox.

Michael Jamin:

Right.

Steve Baldikoski:

They thought, I think that they thought it was, it was not good for their career.

Michael Jamin:

It would kill their career. Yeah. And, and now it would make no difference, honestly. Now you what? You take a job, you know, whatever job you can get, you take a job, you know? Yeah. But back then you could make decisions. You could make choices.

Steve Baldikoski:

Yes. Yeah. I, yeah. And, and interestingly, like back when Brian and I were making lists of shows, we would wanna be on Uhhuh, Simpsons was like a C-level list at the time.

Michael Jamin:

Uhhuh Really? Cause

Steve Baldikoski:

We liked it, but we thought it was imminently. We, we didn't, no one still knew it was gonna be on the air

Michael Jamin:

40 years later.

Steve Baldikoski:

Yeah. And you know, cuz cuz being on The Simpsons, I think it was like uncool. Then it became cool, then it was uncool.

Michael Jamin:

Well, in a way it's a little bit of, it's almost golden handcuffs if you're on the Cho. That that's if you're on the Simpsons now, you you're not gonna leave. Yeah. Cause it's job security and get ready to, for writing Bart jokes for the rest of your career, you know. Yeah.

Steve Baldikoski:

But the crazy thing is that there are writers who are still there, who were there when I was in the mail room at United Town. Sure.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. So

Steve Baldikoski:

Th there are people

Michael Jamin:

Who, they've made a career at it who,

Steve Baldikoski:

Yes. So I was in the, I was on the business side of the business. I became an executive and then I was a writer for 25 years. Yeah. And they're still doing the job from the day I got into the business.

Michael Jamin:

It's so interesting. It's just so, yeah. It's, and I would think creatively it's hard, but you know, you, but the money will make, will make you feel better. You know,

Steve Baldikoski:

Money makes a lot of things feel better.

Michael Jamin:

You crying for your 50? Is there a 50 bill? . I wouldn't know what a 50 bill looks like. Fascinating. Dude, thank you so much. We have a good chat. We had a good time.

Steve Baldikoski:

Steve. Thanks for having me.

Michael Jamin:

Thank you so much. This is, I, I don't know, I'm always fascinating in, in learning people's journeys and how they got there and so thank you so much for, for being on my little show.

Steve Baldikoski:

Thank you. And hopefully you have stuff that you don't have to cut.

Michael Jamin:

Oh, , sorry folks. If you heard the version that, the edited version, we had a trash, a lot of stuff. ,

Steve Baldikoski:

.

Michael Jamin:

All right everyone, thank you so much. Remember, we offer, we got a lot of great stuff for you on my website. You can get on my newsletter, you get my free all that stuff. Go to michaeljamin.com and find out what we got there. And I got another webinar coming up. All right everyone, thanks so much. Until next, next week, keep writing.

Phil Hudson:

This has been an episode where screenwriters need to hear this with Michael Jamin and Phil Hudson. If you'd like to support this podcast, please consider subscribing, leaving a review and sharing this podcast with someone who needs to hear today's subject. For free daily screenwriting tips, follow Michael on Instagram, Facebook, and TikTok @MichaelJaminWriter. You can follow me on Instagram, Facebook, and TikTok @PhilAHudson. This episode was produced by Phil Hudson and edited by Dallas Crane. Until next time, keep writing.