This week, we revisit a conversation with Andy Kroll, a reporter covering justice and the rule of law at ProPublica, about the profile he wrote of Russell Vought, the director of a little-known, but powerful office inside the White House. Donald Trump calls him "Darth Vader," and Vought is behind thousands of federal layoffs. Hear why Kroll calls him Trump's "shadow president," and about Vought's goal to put federal workers "in trauma."

On the Media is supported by listeners like you. Support OTM by donating today (https://pledge.wnyc.org/support/otm). Follow our show on Instagram, Twitter and Facebook @onthemedia, and share your thoughts with us by emailing [email protected].